20 Episode results for "Chinese American Community"

Fashion History Mystery #53: Tips for the Well-dressed Man: 19th Century Edition

Dressed: The History of Fashion

14:31 min | 6 months ago

Fashion History Mystery #53: Tips for the Well-dressed Man: 19th Century Edition

"Hi I'm Gina Pay From Comedy Troupe Obama's other daughters. We're sharing some of our favorite moments from body image to the way you wear your hair from our podcast. You don't presented by does like I was reading about a three year old who got sent home with a note from preschool that said your daughter's hair stinks of coconut oil stinks of coconut oil together we can create a respectful and open world listen to a new episode. Every Tuesday you down is available on iheartradio apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. At American Public University, we believe that higher education can unlock higher purpose. So we offer two hundred modern programs for those who want to make a difference and we believe education must adapt to students needs. That's why we've made it accessible through online classes and flexible with monthly program starts American public university within reach without limits learn more at. American public you DOT COM. Jess, the history of fashion is a production of iheartradio. Seven million people in the world. We all have one thing in common every day we all get dressed. Welcome to dress the history of fashion a podcast that explores the WHO, what, when, why we wear we are fashion historians and your host, Cassidy Zachary and April Kellyanne welcome dress listeners to another. Of Fashion History mystery this week, we actually are bringing you an extra special episode, which is not exactly a listener question, but rather in add onto our full fulling episode from this past Tuesday, this week in the spirit of the upcoming. US. Presidential election we re are episode with Fashion Historian Rice Brittania which explores the role style played in the American suffrage movement. Yes. And during our conversation rice and I were discussing the need to bring to light some narratives, somewhat lost a history of the women of color who campaigned for women's right to vote and day we are so happy to share with you a little bit of the suffer just her story of Miss. Mabel. Ping Wa. Lee and while her story I may not be entirely. Novel, WHO's Serious Scholars of the American suffrage movement cast I thought it was so moving and I just really really wanted to share it with all of you. Our listeners are so born in eighteen, ninety, six or ninety seven depending on the source. In Guangzhou, China around the time Mabel turned four, her father Lee toe moved to the United States to become a Christian. Missionary and he ministered to Chinese communities living in the United States young able stayed behind in China with her mother and grandmother studying under Chinese private tutors until she reached the age of nine and after receiving a scholarship created to bring promising young Chinese students to study in the states mabel joined her father ultimately settling in the Chinatown neighborhood of New, York City and Mabel. Academy and Brooklyn which is one of the oldest schools in the country and it was founded in seventeen, eighty six and some of the schools original funding found this really interesting came from the nation's founding fathers among others Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. So there's a little tidbit for you Hamilton fans out there. But one school maples Predator intelligence really shown amongst her classmates she learned. English extremely quickly math Latin she just took all these subjects like you know like a duck to water. I suppose. One could say, and by the age of sixteen, she had been admitted to Barnard, which was and still remains a scholastically rigorous women's college affiliated with Columbia University. Seemingly a natural born leader and activist Mabel made a name for herself within the Women's suffrage community as a teenager as a very young woman. So in nineteen twelve, the New York Tribune did a profile on Mabel in advance of her nomination to lead what has now become this legendary suffrage parade through the streets of New York City. The Tribune declared her a symbol of the new era and noted that she quote intends to March in the suffrage parade on May fourth. No Not March. But ride on horseback and miss any art tinkers brigade horsewoman who will have the procession. She will be clad like the rich and fashionable suffragettes around her in a tight fitting black broadcloth, black habit and a tri cornered black hat with the green purple and White Caucasian of the women's political union and what a sight this parade must've been cast I mean the subscription of it in all these articles is pretty amazing. An estimated ten thousand people marched. In this parade and the press coverage of the event is actually quite extensive. So we know quite a lot about it but as a sixteen year old Chinese woman maples presence among her white colleagues on horseback was remarked upon by the New York Times which also wrote quote it was a parade of contrasts contrast women. There were women of every occupation and profession and women of all ages from those. So advanced in years they had to ride in carriages down to the separate jets so. Small they were pushed along in ambulatory sort of course, our strollers now and it goes on to say there were women whose faces bore traces of a life of hard work in many worries. There were young girls, lovely face and fashionably gowned. There were motherly looking women and others with the confident bearing obtained from contact with the business world. There were women who smiled and a preoccupied way as though they had just put the roast in the oven wiped off her apron. Sorry that's pretty funny. And hurried out to be in the parade there were plainly worried at leaving their household cares for so long yet they were determined to show their loyalty to the cause. There were women who marched those weary miles with large bank accounts. Their slender girls tired after long hours of factory work. There were nurses, teachers, writers, social workers, Librarian schoolgirls, laundry workers. There were women who work with their heads and women who work with their hands and women who never work at all and they all marched for suffrage. Okay. So I'm not GonNa lie what I read that when I was doing research as this episode that little passage really got to me I was like sitting there typing like fighting back tears on my computer. It's just very moving to hear about. Everyone being out in the streets like that. Also, it wasn't just women at the parade more than a thousand men also walked. And according to The New York Times a lot of these men were taunted unmercifully for supporting the women marchers they point out all these different things that happened the policeman kind of binding the parade were laughing at them. They were repeatedly called. Hen. And The Times notes jabs such as can't you get a wife? Why don't you try up ahead? These kind of taunts were common and and other times the male onlookers watching the prayed simply hissed. who were marching alongside the women you know other times though I have to say, the men marchers exploded into applause so that the women marchers around them couldn't hear all of these vile insults that were being flung at them by the parade on. Basically. I mean to say that these women fought to gain the right to vote is no understatement friend and it's not a metaphor I mean in case these women are using their bodies in the streets to fight for the right to vote and this battle waged on as we know for more than seventy years and once at Barnard Maple continued her fight for women's franchise in nineteen fourteen at the age of eighteen she published an article in the Chinese student monthly that argued the moral legal political and economic rationales for women fully participating in the democratic process and this article I have to say he's a pretty staggering piece of writing cast for an eighteen year old. I wish I could have written like that. When I was her age I wish I could write like that. Now just saying you know she was extremely gifted and I suppose that it comes as no surprise then that after she graduated Barnard with a history and philosophy degree, she went on to Columbia teachers. College to gain a masters in education administration of course, all the while continuing her activism, you know continuing to participate heavily with the Chinese Students Association and also the Political Union in their suffrage work it would not be until Mabel was nearly complete with her PhD in Economics at Columbia that American women federally gained the right to vote the nineteenth amendment was of course passed and Nineteen twenties one hundred years ago as we know this year however Mabel one of if not the first Chinese woman to graduate with a PhD in economics mind you was far from gaining the vote herself. So due to the Chinese exclusion act which precluded her from becoming a citizen maybe would have to wait more than twenty years before this even became a. Possibility the Chinese exclusion act was repealed in nineteen forty three. So following the publication of her PhD work as a book, trews entitled the Economic History of China. Mabel fully intended to return to China to devote her life to as she said, quote, helping my own people and in these intervening years well, Mabelle had been in school her father Lee. Toe had really. Become this pillar of the Chinese Chinese American community in New York and he was jokingly referenced as the Mayor of Chinatown in the press sometimes. But of course, he was a religious figure and in the course of his work as a reverend, he endeavored to keep the peace between rival. Chinese. tongs and the the kind of groups I don't necessarily want to call. Them gangs little more nuanced than that. But let's just say there was a lot of rivalry and violence playing out between these factions and he tried to intervene and keep the peace unfortunately. However, he sacrificed his life to this cause in nine, nineteen, twenty, four, only three years after Mabel had finally completed her PhD work maybe returned to New York at this time. To continue her father's worked acting as the heat defacto director of the first Chinese Baptist Church of new. York City and going on to found the Chinese Christian Center which was a comprehensive community center that offered health services, English classes and childcare services for more than four decades. Mabel Lee serve the needs of her community before passing away at the age of seventy. In nineteen, sixty six and I'm pretty sure I can guess what many of you are thinking right now because I too was thinking this when I started diving into all the details of her life and looking at primary sources that we're talking about her work in the suffrage movement in the nineteen th you know the burning question is did Mabel ever get to Vote and the answer is we don't know. So more than one exceptionally reputable source states that is simply not known if Mabel ever gained her US citizenship and also exercise her right to vote and I know this a little bit of a bittersweet ending to our story today. But what an incredible life, this woman lead cast, you know she was entirely devoted. To. The betterment of others and it's very possible that she knew that she herself may never ever reap the fruits of her own Labor in terms of getting the right to vote. But there she was right there on the front line doing the work anyway. So that all of us ladies would see benefits today, which is again on that note why we implore. Listeners to please get out and vote in this year's election. Don't let Mabel down don't let the women and men and all the individuals. Of course you've marched before us. You know let's let's vote in their honor and and may you consider the freedom to express your voice sartorial or otherwise next time you get dressed? That does it for us this week. Please join US next to stay for a full length episode and we always love hearing from you. So if you'd like to write to us, you can do so at dressed I hurt media dot com and you can also message us on instagram at dress underscore podcast, which was where you better bet we will be posting some images of not only mabel but lots of other really fascinating movers and Shakers in the American suffrage movement as we move forward this week. Thank you as always our producers Casey p Graham polly fry and everyone else that iheartradio that makes the show possible each week we will catch you on. Tuesday The history of fashion he production of iheartradio for more podcasts from iheartradio visit, iheartradio APP, apple podcasts, or whatever else you listen to your favorite shows. At American Public University we believe quality education must be more affordable. That's why as a leader in online higher education, we focus on minimizing costs and maximizing return on learner investment and we believe higher education must be more visible. So our online programs start every month. American public university within reach without limits learn more at American public you. Dot Com. At American Public University we believe higher education is not one-size-fits-all. That's why we offer two hundred modern programs that build on your knowledge and fit your schedule because we believe universities should adapt to the needs of students not the other way around American public university within reach without limits. Online classes start every month learn more at American public you dot com.

Mabel Lee US American Public University apple New York City The New York Times China Chinese Chinese American commu Barnard Lee toe York City New York Tribune Jess Gina Pay Obama Brooklyn Columbia University Cassidy Zachary Guangzhou
China and the Global Challenge to Democracy: A Conversation with Larry Diamond

Power 3.0 | Authoritarian Resurgence, Democratic Resilience

40:08 min | 2 years ago

China and the Global Challenge to Democracy: A Conversation with Larry Diamond

"<music> hello everyone and welcome to the power three pineau podcast looking at thorough -tarian resurgence and democratic resilience in an era of globalization power three three point. Oh is brought to you by the international form for democratic studies the idea center the national endowment for democracy. I'm your host christopher walker vice president for studies and analysis us at the endowment recording from our studio in washington d._c. And i'm your co host sean colossal senior director of neds international forum for democratic studies. We're really delighted delighted to be undertaking this new podcast series which is an effort to share with you our listeners the conversations we're having here at the endowments international forum with some of the world's leading analysts researchers and democracy activists on emerging trends that are impacting democratization shanty. Maybe you can explain to our listeners. How we came up with title for the podcast sure so a year ago we launched a blog under the same name power three point. Oh it focuses on how modern authoritarianism utilizes globalization in ways that few anticipated so for example authoritarians now take advantage of interconnected financial systems communication technologies like the internet international norms and institutions institutions and the relatively open arenas of global media academic exchange and culture so in some ways authoritarian illiberal regimes have leapfrog the capabilities of democracies thus power three point. Oh the irony is that a key characteristic democracies hold dear. Their openness is also vulnerability that a liberal actors exploiting. It's worth pointing out however that democracies have at their disposal their own unique features that make them both more flexible brazilian and we hope to explore through our power three-point three point conversations how democratic societies can leverage their own competitive advantage and response on that note. It's a great pleasure to introduce as our very first guest on the show someone who can always find a reason for optimism about prospects for democracy. He's co editor of the journal of democracy and senior fellow at stanford university's hoover institution and larry diamond. Welcome to the show larry. Thank you chris. Thank you shanty larry together with orville schell of the asia society center on u s china relations nations. You've organized a working group of china and foreign policy experts and just published a report titled chinese influence in american interests promoting constructive vigilance the report primarily delves into efforts by the chinese communist party to influence american institutions including state and local governments universities think tanks media corporations uh-huh and the chinese american community. I'd like to start by asking you to give a sense of why you felt. It was so important to organize this effort in democracy terms. What's at stake in the current earned environment. Well ultimately what's at stake is the future freedom in the world <hes>. I think that one of the most shocking aspects of our report is the revelation of how much freedom of expression freedom of information and freedom from fear and intimidation are being compromised promising-looking in the united states of america particularly among chinese americans the chinese american diaspora and among the chinese diaspora communities and other democracies most notably <hes> but certainly not exclusively <hes> australia new zealand by the massive <hes> relentless and increasingly sophisticated united united front and other influence activities of the chinese communist party <hes> and so if we can't even preserve the freedom freedom of our own people in our own country something very very grave has happened and something very profound is at stake in one of the places where this really was in view at the outset was in australia. I'm and i know that there were <hes> australia was kept in mind during the production of this this report maybe you can say a few words about how that informed the thinking for this effort well <hes> chris i think both australia and new zealand and have been kind of the canaries in the coal mine here in terms of western democratic consciousness of the risks and the steaks <hes> it isn't surprising that they would be first or earlier in the trajectory of deeper penetration because they're they're closer asserted china <hes> and <hes> so perhaps easier to penetrate australia new zealand heaven had the kinds of laws on foreign agents registration <hes> the we have in the united states under the so-called fara foreign agent registration act <hes> they hadn't until very very recently banned foreign contributions to their political campaigns and so one of the things that happened in australia was a scandal <hes> where a backbencher in the australian parliament was found herd revealed to to have given a speech <hes> in which he was basically reading from the chinese communist party line on the south china sea and basically saying hang us is reasonable. Australia should just accept this and someone made an audio recording of it and it became a scandal candle that an australian backbencher would have said this basically sounding like toady for the communist regime amen china. He kinda survived the scandal and then you know some and and returned to his role in parliament and then some months later it was revealed to things nearly simultaneously number one that he had taken money from a chinese businessman for his this campaign and number two that there was a video showing that he acts this wasn't an off the cuff statement. These were prepared remarks he had made and since this became a kind of metaphor. There were many other instances in australia. <hes> of you know blinking red lights in terms of very very deep penetration of australian society <hes> by <hes> the chinese vast influence bureaucracy. I'll just say they briefly there had been an accumulation of a number of studying incidents in australian universities of chinese overseas students being intimidated monitored followed and of australian professors being monitored and harassed for making statements about china that <hes> overseas chinese students were probably induced to protest so you brought up universities around the world and their unique role in trying to preserve some element of openness and academic freedom <hes> and that can be <hes> one of the first lines of <hes> and <hes> of defense against authoritarian interference but by the same token it can also be one of the first places that authoritarian regimes try to undermine or influence fluence <hes> at the launch event there was some discussion of ways that universities should rea- to things like confucius institutes for instance and mention pay who was part of the working group noted at the launch that he wouldn't recommend banning the confucius institutes <hes> but that rather there should be some kind of transparency around them and you you referred to <hes> and almost <hes> classified information like environment surrounding the contracts accident struck between universities and confucius institutes what can be done than about not just confucius institutes but other forms of chinese government influence within universities democracies around the world so i think we have to take apart the different influence activities seventies of the different potential forms of influence and <hes> we need to address them as a whole because i do think there's a chinese strategy strategy there but we also need to disad aggregate them because they have different implications the view we have taken in our report which i do believe elicited very broad consensus among the members of our working group is a little bit different than what some of the politicians auditions <hes> have suggested namely that the confucius institutes in themselves <hes> do not not necessarily represent a threat to academic freedom as long as they are transparent in their agreements and as as long as they are not banning or preempting or eclipsing discussion of certain subjects now. What are these institutes mainly. They're teaching chinese language and <hes> <hes> a couple of the members of our working group have examined the pedagogical instruments they use is the language instruction materials and they're not full of propaganda the they were not found to be intrinsically trend sickly objectionable so there are other aspects of the confucius institutes that present problems for academic freedom. The most serious areas one is that the agreements are secret and even the faculty <hes> typically on most university campuses. <hes> don't no of them. A second is that <hes> in some colleges and universities they may actually preempt discussion discussion of set sensitive subjects like tiananmen square two batters what's going on now in xinjiang province and if they veer into into programming <hes> that given the fact that the chinese government is paying for these pro these programs <hes> in different universities as if they veer away from language instruction to programming about current events and so on that is deeply troubling so we need transparency a and we need faculty governance. We need autonomy. We need <hes> democratic control and as long as the confucius institutes. I have these <hes> then you know they just add to the resources for language instruction personally. I strongly a doubt that the chinese government would agree to these terms and i think if they don't that should result in the cancellation of all of these contracts. I mean i think that's that's an interesting point that the transparency is not just there for its own sake but it's also to cause a discussion around what is and isn't permissible spell in these environments correct and it's just a basic principle of democracy and accountability and we have found shanty across the board <hes> <hes> in terms of think tanks <hes> corporate relations a relations was crucially state and local governments and sister city and sister interstate relationships as well as universities that transparency is key and that <hes> sharp power control control is very difficult to sustain an an aps in an atmosphere of transparency and so you just named a host of institutions in sectors that are grappling with the challenges that have emerged that are laid out in the report. That's just been released. In many ways <hes> democratic society societies society's haven't been oriented towards dealing with these kinds of problems in essence the challenges that are presented <hes> to free expression academic expression media the expression within democratic societies instigated imposed from the outside <hes> into the extent this has happened in the past it it wasn't done on with the same degree of integration intersection which makes it much more acute much more <hes> thicken sense what needs to happen and within democracies in the coming term <hes> you've just explained the university challenges but going beyond the university and some of these other sectors what needs to happen within the democratic context to ensure that there's an adequate response on the one hand but that the response itself is consistent with liberal democratic values cracked. Yes thanks chris and that the response is not hysterical that it doesn't <hes> <hes> breed kind of generalized is d- suspicion of <hes> <hes> chinese americans chinese australians or chinese overseas students and businessmen who were doing thing <hes> and women who were doing legitimate work in other countries. I think the most important thing or the beginning point is information formation. It's education. It's understanding it's awareness. I have become convinced as a result of my involvement augmon with this project that there is simply breathtaking ignorance in naievety in western democracies about what's going on here <hes> that china has a vast leninist communist party influence bureaucracy that centrally coordinated the top stop and that has as its mission and raise on debt the projection of sharp power <hes> some of it is the projection action of soft power through traditional means of <hes> you know who <hes> articulating their views and building relationships and so on that all countries <hes> do as particularly when they kind of reach a certain level on the world stage but a lot of it is sharp power and to put added another way in the way that former australian prime minister <hes> malcolm turnbull put it a year or two ago when he launched australia's elliot's <hes> very historic effort to finally push back against those activity that is covert <hes> <hes> coercive and corrupting attending <hes> and this is what we need to guard against <hes> so the covert is clear. We need transparency in all aspects of these relationships gifts gifts grants donations the terms for a conference <hes> the conditions for an exchange all of this needs to be disclosed and if the chinese interlocutors think tanks <hes> friendship associations and so on are not willing in to have the terms disclosed that in itself should be a breaking blinking red light that something is wrong here <hes> beyond that that <hes> we recommend consideration of i would put it stronger. I recommend creation of of federal government office where universities universities <hes> think tanks ngos local governments and other other american actors can go when they're approached by chinese <hes> potential you know exchange partner or to potential investor potential donor whatever it might be to just say you know we don't know much about this person is there is there are are there other aspects to their organizational ties their persona that that haven't been disclosed that we should know about before we make our own decision about whether we want to accept this donation or pursue you this exchange relationship or something like that and you know what we have found is frequently. You don't have to look very hard to find that the person who wants <hes> to have a cooperative relationship with the research institute and university is doing cutting edge research that could have military applications at a university affiliated with the people's liberation army or that another person is actually a part of the apparatus at the united front work department of the chinese communist party. We should note this stuff before we i pursued these relationships so <hes> are actors in the united states. Another democracies need help. They need places where they can go and they need to understand or stand. I hope they'll read at least parts of our report to educate themselves on mention one other thing that i think <hes> non-governmental organizations and state and local governments need to do they are frequently being played off one against the other by the divide and rule tactics of the chinese communist party. You know i can take my money elsewhere a we can take this exchange relationship elsewhere. You don't wanna come here. We'll get delegation from one of your competitor institutions and that game has to stop they need to develop a common base of information and a common code of conduct so they all have the same certain minimum standards and principles in terms of how they're going to relate to their potential interlocutors china and larry you mentioned the <hes> week knowledge that is possessed in many democratic settings about china and the way in which the system operates beyond its borders and engaging being democratic institutions places like africa latin america parts of europe. <hes> one of the problems seems to be structural which is that you have china experts who focused on china who may not have knowledge of the regions in which china today's deeply engaged at the same time. Many any of those regions may not have the china expertise in the policy community in the news media editors and so forth who can put china in context in a way that at their own societies can come to their own conclusions about the nature of the relationship they have so what do we need to do in the coming term to bridge those gaps and to make sure that the knowledge gaps that now exist in so many places are not as large in her shrunk over time well i i i hope that our report <hes> on chinese influence activities in the united states will help <hes> but we need the help of the media and organizations like the national endowment for democracy to defuse an <hes> to also kind of distill the knowledge i into into more bite sized chunks. Hopefully this podcast will be <hes> one step in that direction <hes> as i said i think we need a center center where organizations can go to get more understanding information and may be specific knowledge. <hes> i think that people like ourselves involved involved in this working group <hes> and research effort need to reach out to <hes> universities on the american association of university <hes> pity professors and university presidents <hes> two media to the national conference of mayors the national conference of governors the national conference of state state legislatures actually we hope to do all of that and just kind of share our knowledge su are now assists in our information about some of the trends were seen thing and some of the things that we should be aware of again. The messages not don't have any relationships with china. It is be vigilant <hes> <hes> our <hes> our watchword is constructive vigilance be mindful as questions <hes> seek transparency so i noticed in in your report that you recommend that the media should undertake fact-based investigative reporting of chinese government influence which is i think starting to happen now. In many developed let democracies but let's turn our focus now to the emerging in vulnerable democracies on which we at the forum tend to focus more of our attention on and certainly they were her <hes> a big part of the sharp power report that came out last year you know wh how should these democracies that frequently are lacking that capacity whose institutions are inherently more vulnerable and who's media institutions may not have the capacity you to do that kind of really detailed investigative reporting. How should they try to address this issue and <hes> you know i'm thinking in particular urine africanist in in many african countries the chinese government has already engaged and really vigorous exchange programs and vigorous media-training really extensive and well resourced the efforts to <hes> not just promote its own narrative but to shut down certain alternative narratives from forming well. I'd say a <hes> number one. Don't send your journalists to be brainwashed by the chinese communist party in china <hes> number two do <hes> i'd say these media houses should seek to give their reporters some some training <hes> in coverage of china and in china's <hes> projection of sharp power <hes> <hes> and i think that the western democracies basically the united states the european union in asia. I think australia's role role to play here. They really need to step up to the play. In terms of i now believe vast increases in media training and media assistance programs <hes> i think there is an urgent need <hes> to counter china's ma align influence activities in africa targeted particularly at the media with vast new resources for media training training of african and emerging market country <hes> journalist training in journalism in general <hes> and training in in <hes> the ways and techniques of sharp power projection not just by china but go back to the ned report russia iran in an potentially other actresses well. We're now seeing saudi arabia's spending a lot of resources on shar power projection <hes> i think we need to <hes> the obvious thing to say and talking to ned but <hes> we need more resources to do this and the congress is i think going to have to wrestle with this challenge that we are now being outmatched and outspent by the communist party of china uh on many of the playing fields in africa and other developing in post-communist emerging market societies. I mean you know there was a column that was just written by a well known media scholar where he approvingly noted the existence of a unitary media system underwritten by the party state and to me that relieved <hes> brings up point home that the these are countries and institutions that should naturally be <hes> queuing to a more democratic model dole but somehow the c._c._p.'s narrative of development versus democracies seems to have taken hold but what's your view of the narrative in africa. My view is that we thought when the cold war ended and communism unisom generally <hes> collapsed in most places of course not in china not vietnam not in cuba in most places <hes> <hes> and then there was the second liberation in africa and a wave of new democratic transitions. We thought we had won the the ideological battle. We thought it was the end of history at least in terms of there being in frank 'fukushimas concept no general general lies -able ideological systemic rival to the motto of <hes> liberal democracy and market capitalism and i think we have an ideological systemic rival now in the chinese system not in the russian system. It's too decadent to be the an ideological model <hes> but the chinese system. I think is going through on the world stage a significant. If incremental -cremento evolution in two respects one increasingly in recent years in very recent years under xi jinping china is beginning into push it as as a different model the china motto a better model <hes> more suited to rapid development a model of development development and to some extent market capitalism although it's very state manage without <hes> the flaws and grinding paralysis of democracy and secondly they're spending a huge amount of money to promote it to sell it and to <hes> bring people to china to see it and we would be i think blind and <hes> naive not to notice that it's having some impact and so given the scope of the report that <hes> you've overseen there's just out in the nature of the challenge as you've described larry <hes> what do you think is the most important takeaway at this stage for decision makers and civil l. society leaders in democracies around the world who increasingly have <hes> a multifaceted relationship with china commercial terms political terms media terms. What should they have at the forefront of their thinking in order to get the best outcome in terms of retaining democratic accountability in their systems. I i think most important thing for them to understand is is that china is still a communist party state with maybe not marxism being very important relevant ideology any anymore although it is kind of thrown at young people <hes> still but certainly leninism as is is as being the way the state is organized the way it projects itself on the world stage through this vast influence bureaucracy overseen by the chinese communist party but heavily involving a variety of state elements as well and when you see something like the chinese people's close friendship as international friendship association or anything like that what you see is not always what you get that beneath that is a whole full strategy for cultivation and compromise and this doesn't mean that there can't be you know still valuably fruitful relations that can be pursued in terms of potentially sister city relationships nations ships certainly in terms of chinese university students coming to the u._s. in terms of co-investment and collaborative research but it means there is a hidden agenda in these entrees in these overtures and in the pursuit of these relationships chips and we always have to evaluate what that might be who the actors are really are that are making the approaches what the risks are that there needs to be a serious risk analysis in each case what kinds of questions we should be asking and what forms of transparency we should be insisting on including <hes> also freedom from constraint that the chinese do not get to say. You can't have a different opinion about taiwan than we do. <hes> the answer to that has to be sorry. We're not giving up our freedom adam of expression. If that's a condition for the relationship thank you very much. We're not interested <hes> so that is the mentality that that is needed. <hes> and if american non-governmental organizations universities think tanks media corporations <hes> local governments and other actors don't bring that awareness and that that mentality to the discussion of negotiation of and initiation possibly of relationships ups with peer actors in china. We are at very grave risk of having our democracy diminished and compromised is in a variety of small incremental ways that initially will gather <hes> an aggregate into very large and serious consequences so let me continue in the big picture vein you know in the report you talk about three elements of a democratic response transparency integrity and reciprocity and again as we move out beyond the u._s. to these other examples. How can dan these younger more vulnerable democracies hugh to these principles and i guess i'd home in particular in on reciprocity. If there's an unequal relationship or an imbalance in the relationship where were country feels like it doesn't have the ability to be reciprocal. How would you go about about advising these younger more vulnerable democracies in their relations with the chinese government. Well we really articulated the reciprocity principle more with the united states and similar types of advanced democracies like say germany on australian mind that <hes> our democratic paddick journalists think tanks and so on you have to have some degree of access <hes> an open access to china if they they want <hes> are chinese peers to have the same kind of access to the united states. We hope it can be a lever to open up. Chinese society ready to more balanced exchange in a healthier relationship with the smaller democracies of of say merging market countries. I think the issue is more. There's vulnerability <hes> and <hes> <hes> threat threat to their institutional integrity. I've i've spoken about <hes> transparency. I think that's now clear <hes> i i think with respect to institutional integrity this a few points i would make one is education is crucial. They've got to understand how these systems operate. How <hes> autonomy can be compromised what kinds of questions they need to ask and so on secondly. They've gotta be very careful not to become so financially dependent on chinese actors <hes> that who ultimately intimately have to answer to the chinese communist party even if they're not formally affiliated with it even corporations that they really you lose their independence because they're dealing with an authoritarian party state. That's gonna ask for a lot in in return in may ultimately ask for their report or the next twenty years of their oil exports or <hes> or whatever it might be so <hes> awareness is key the and if you're going to avoid excessive dependence then you've got to not necessarily avoid relating to china but ensure ensure that the overall proportion of chinese aid of chinese engagement isn't dominant <hes> and so that's partly liane them to diversify its partly on us to generate the supply of aid of training of investment and other forms of <hes> a partnership and and resource enhancement that will make it possible possible for them to avoid excessive dependence on the people's republic of china the other thing. I wanna say it's on them but again. It's also on us. Every time china comes and builds a telecom network for these countries. They've got to assume the the chinese communist party state is capturing all this data and sending it back <hes> to china. Is this what they want for their country country and the future of freedom in their country so i think we have to aggressively challenge <hes> china's bid to become the the virtually monopolistic supplier of telecom networks in africa. I think this is a grave threat to individual privacy ever seen freedom in africa. I think larry you've you've laid out in <hes> billy. Extraordinary detail the scope of the challenge and in a way if i'm i'm understanding correctly the leading <hes> better resourced countries that are dealing with this challenge have to really be at the forefront of resetting standards and making clear what <hes> what needs to be done to safeguard free expression and to make sure the integrity of institutions is there in the absence of that. It's really quite a lot to ask <hes> other countries in a weaker position to take charge on that and so in a sense <hes> there needs to be more for collaboration and information sharing and finding ways to <hes> have solidarity in a sense to deal with what is a unitary challenge challenge on so many fronts in the way of describing. I think this report i participated in as should be required reading for anyone who wants to get a better sense of the scope of the challenge and what needs to be done to deal with it so before we wrap up our conversation. I'd like to introduce our final segment that will include in every podcast episode where we ask our guests what they're currently reading and might recommend to our listeners for my part. I've been reading the people vs tech authored by jamie bartlett who does a really excellent job of dissecting the problems that have emerged in the digital era how the speed relentlessness and ubiquity is social media are inhospitable to reason discussion in so many ways his writing waiting makes clear just how high the stakes are for democracy think this book really should be read by anyone who wants to understand the issues and the stakes involved for <hes> democracies around the world that are now relying on digital media the principal mode of communication and understanding the world around them and and <hes> for my part. It's a bit self promoting but it's the truth i'm reading the article on democracies near-misses by tom ginsburg and aziz huck in the last volume of the journal of democracy <hes> points out that it's important to understand not only how democracies die but also how they live in other words as they say the investigation of democratic decline should not begin and end with the instances ince's in which democracy has ended up on its deathbed so the article focuses on how democracies persist under conditions of severe pressure looking at historical case studies from finland colombian the entry lanka <hes>. I chose this because i would like to look it up bright spot on the horizon larry what you've been reading <hes> well. I'm almost done with jon. Meacham uh-huh absolutely remarkable book the soul of america the battle for our better angels which is just a deeply inspiring book about out the struggle for democracy decency tolerance struggle against racism in america <hes> from particularly the civil the war period and mansa patient through our our current times <hes> it's just deeply eloquent <hes> <hes> overview of this <hes> you know unfinished business we have of liberal democracy in america but relevant to our current conversation decision i would like to also recommend clive hamilton's book silent invasion which is a very deep and striking <hes> book length portrait of australia's struggle against <hes> very very advanced and malign chinese influence <hes> operations rations in australia and how democratic institutions. I think he might say almost became irretrievably. Compromised is d- <hes> i think under prime minister malcolm turnbull australia now the current government is well because the reform legislation continues and use the current. <hes> threat is subsiding a little bit but the book is striking and vivid portrait the of how this influence activity works and what's at stake well. That's all the time we have today for this episode of the power three point oh podcast before we conclude. I just like to thank you very for joining us for this. It's been a great conversation for more on the topic. We discussed today visit the stanford university hoover institution website website to download the report chinese influence in american interests promoting constructive vigilance for further analysis of the themes we discussed today and we'll be examining in future podcast. Cast episodes visit our blog power three point zero understanding modern authoritarian influence. We also invite you to join the conversation with us on facebook and twitter where you you can find us using the handle at think democracy. Additional resources are available on the net website at w._w._w. Dot n. e. d. dot org org slash ideas. If you enjoy today's show please rate us on itunes. Google play or whichever podcast app use special thanks to our podcast production team gene the international forum producer jessica ludwig and our editing and sound engineer michelle faust. I'm sean colombo with chris walker and larry docket. We hope if you enjoyed this discussion on china and the global challenge to democracy and invite you to tune in again for future power three point oh podcasts.

china chinese communist party australia united states larry diamond chinese government africa journal of democracy malcolm turnbull christopher walker washington chinese american community prime minister senior director chris walker orville schell neds international stanford university
The Scientist and the Spy - China, the FBI, espionage, and racism

Science Friction

31:16 min | 1 year ago

The Scientist and the Spy - China, the FBI, espionage, and racism

"This is an ABC podcast. So this story starts in Midwest America Iowa Corn Country and this was in a suburb of Des Moines. This is stranger in the middle of Corn Field appearance in that field. Alarmed the farmer own the land but this is no ordinary cornfield and he called the police and the men is no ordinary trespasser. They came shortly after words. Squad cars Interrogated him and kind of sent him and two colleagues who were also in the area on their way but that was just the beginning later an FBI agent found the field report. That the sheriff's deputies showed up and match it with similar in another cornfields. Something big was brewing. Very big and that set off a two year. Fbi investigation that spans multiple states involved aerial surveillance planes flying overhead and airport busts. Hello Natasha Mitchell here with you for science fiction where it? My guess is weak is investigative science journalist with the intercept Mar Vista dolls. Look Mahras lightest book is a phenomenal raid in the scientist and the spy the true story of China the FBI and industrial espionage on it got me at the title she charts a case that has tendrils into present day USA where the trump administration and the FBI a now targeting Chinese scientists working in American institutions. Some for many years and of course. This all has resonance this week for a Stra. Two as online relationship with China is being tested over both covered nineteen and tried concerns so Mara joins me today. Voss Scott so I was living in China when I first read about this case I was working for science for the news section of the Journal. So that meant that I spent days but scientists and knew a lot about the investments that had gone into tiny science over the over the preceding years at. This isn't the first time that I saw these sorts of activities really Criminalize in the United States and it turned out that the case against Robert Mo was one of many that would be brought over the coming years. Fighting economic espionage is and P theft from China has become one of the top priorities of the FBI. So there are now. Dozens of cases brought each year. Fbi Director Christopher. Reeve recently said that there were over a thousand active investigation wanted officedepot some SI- racial profiling. Is it work? Others argue that the theft of trade secrets fraud economic espionage are real threats. That need to be investigated. And we'll come back to that but let's get back on that farm. It was run by two brothers own heart of it. They were contracted by the agricultural giant. Monsanto to grow genetically modified inbred Corn Sade. Which could then be used to create the commercial hybrids that? Make Monsanto big money. The field was unmatched top secret. Its contents commercial in confidence. One of the main trespassing. That day was chinese-born Robot Mall. Robert had lived in the United States for years had a wife and two children and Typical kind of suburban lifestyle in Florida. And so in many ways had really become American Have not bothered to get his citizenship. His colleagues had flown in from China and they were for a Beijing agricultural firm called DB N. D. N. produces corn seed like Monsanto and had this aspiration to steal cutting edge research from US companies and reverse engineer the seed back in China but it was rather hare-brained scheme and it ended up taking Robert and his colleagues on all these twists and turns as they tried to outsmart the FBI and Mara has spent four years following those twists and turns from the country. She'd come to call home as a reporter China to the country. She grew up in America. And it's Midwest where her father had been an agricultural reporter so her two worlds effectively collided in this case. Just back in Shanghai though you were there reporting at an extraordinary time for the rise and rise of science and technology in China and I wanted to what extent that head also filled into agricultural research because of course China is the world's top importer of corn and soy. And they're reliant on. Us IMPORTS AREN'T Bay to meet their needs. Yes imports from the United States from Brazil from other countries. I knew there was a big emphasis on improving the quality of Chinese crops. I also knew that. Gm food genetically modified crops. Were not allowed to be sold commercially. In part because of a series of of different food safety scandals of Chinese people were really reluctant to accept them. And one of the interesting things about these cases that didn't involve genetically modified seeds. And so this company. De Vienne was targeting. Research that they expected would eventually be legalized in China. You know really looking ahead several years to see what would be coming next. That is a very interesting aspect of case because GM corn is widespread. It's the norm across. America isn't it and take us then from China to the central waste. Hello have agribusiness. Giants Melt Monsanto Dupont. Hell of they operated in the region and how of they driven GM corn as a as a phenomenon. In America when I started looking in this case the FBI's effort to fight industrial espionage was reading presented as a way to protect American innovation. Protect American research but the more I looked into it I guess. Driving around the Midwest Retracing Robert Steps also retracing the steps of the FBI agent in the case and a year or two of my research. I met a an American farmer and seat. Breeder could actually been in a thrust into the middle of the case. He had briefly had a job for DB on as a consultant at some point Robert Than his colleagues bought a farm in Illinois and tried to pose as farmers and this man Kevin Montgomery was hired to clans feeds on that farm and was unaware of the illegal activity that was going on he eventually was turned into an FBI. Informant and through him. I came to understand all of the change that has happened in the seed industry over over the past few decades. He'd actually lost his job in the major company when the company was acquired by another one so he was a victim of downsizing in the industry and that has been a huge problem where over the past few decades we've gone from dozens of seed companies a global issue as well to just four today that that control. The vast majority of the market and farmers have been squeezed by this trend. It's also affected. The quality of research. this other trend happening in this industry. I wear found that actually the FBI had taken on a case on behalf of a company that was essentially very anti competitive For many people around the world the name Monsanto is very fraught and I was also drawn to the fact that the companies is a rather unlikely victim in that there might be a more complex story beneath the story that was presented in the in the case documents in fact what Mara reports is that an antitrust inquiry into Monsanto which today is no longer in American hands. It's now owned by. Bayer was mysteriously dropped by the US Department of Justice just as the FBI was pursuing. Its case against Robert Mall and his Chinese colleagues. Let's meet Robert Mo better muddy. Who's is I think if B I dubbed he had been code-named Code Nine. He had to scientific. Phd's neither in agriculture. How did he come to be working for this? Massive seed in agribusiness company being Beck in China and and then in America are basically through nepotism. His sister was married to a billionaire. Who is a CEO OF DB N? And he had this kind of classic academic story where he finishes second PhD and looked for an academic job and then failed to find a tenure track position. And then turn to a life of crime but it wasn't. It wasn't quite that direct you know. He found this job through his sister. At first everything scenes perfectly fine and legal news doing things like sourcing ingredient for swine feed and sending it back to China but then a year or so into his time at the company. His boss comes to him and asks him to start. Swiping seeded specific seed lines from From fields in the Midwest and not just any fields. I mean. This was an incredibly brash thing to do with talking stealing intellectual property from two corporate giants to Lati- GIS corporate giants deporting and Monsanto. It was a pretty bold plan that they hatched. It was also rather harebrained. I one point Roberts and his colleagues tried the sentenceed back to China in microwave popcorn bags intercepted by the FBI in an airport bus. They had this just absurd cat and mouse game that was being played with federal agents of over the span of years But they were very persistent very determined to get the seed in probably in the end they they did get some of it now. What are they planning to do with the seeds that they taken from these fields when they got them back to China? What was the science of the mission will to make a hybrid seeds? You need both in bread. Parents once back in China the idea of what the US government allege was that would reverse engineer the seed line so the idea is that dv n had somehow learned which male needed to be combined with which female they could breed those two in breads together in China to create the hybrids that they wanted to the mission was to ultimately have a more productive crop of the ilk that Monsanto and dupont were managing to create. That's right so it takes decades to get a good stock of high quality inbred seeing in countries like the states companies. Have that they've been they've been Breeding those in breads for decades in China. The imbredded breads available are notoriously low quality. And so it wouldn't. It makes sense that a Chinese company would try to get its hands on in breads from from a country like the United States will was rogue Mo- convicted of in the end. He was the only only person convicted in this case yes. He was convicted of economic espionage. Which is a relatively new crime in the United States? It's only a feral fence. Since Nineteen Ninety S. It's a charge. That's now very often used for cases involving China and Technology. And this is where things get interesting because you started out to report the case of Robert Mall but this took you much much further than one case into a much much deeper and fixed history of the way in which the FBI has investigated ethnic Chinese scientists working and studying in the USA. That's right I mean I was. I was drawn to this case. Initially because the scope of the investigation seem somewhat out of proportion with the offense of stealing corn and then after I started looking into it I realized that in order to understand the case I really needed to go back and understand the history of the FBI investigations of ethnic Chinese scientists in. That's a long fraught. History goes back to the Nineteen S. A prevailing attitude in some American Kendra intelligence circles for a long time. Was the Chinese spying worked. It was dubbed the one thousand grinds of Sand theory so rather than sending intelligence operatives to collect buckets of sand off a beach sending a thousand individuals students sales scientists or engineers to or saving to collect a grain of information each eventually i. I did learn in doing my research that there was an actually dedicated. Fbi Program to survey will ethnic Chinese scientists in the United States many of them were US citizens. This is something that happened in the nineteen seventies when it ended but I in the process of my reporting obtained A number of previous then released documents on this program and what was most interesting to you. Think this suspicion that has followed ethnic Chinese researchers over the decades even when they are you know second or third generation American they still often come under the suspicion of of the US government. And I understand that Robert Mugabe was guilty of what he was accused of doing of stealing trade secrets but his case did raise all these interesting questions. That are coming up. In similar cases sends his case is just one of many that have have been brought over the past ten years and you look at the recent past of Chinese scientists targeted and reveal some highly flawed even flaky investigations in some cases. Yes right in. Even in the past few years there have been cases where a researcher was charged and then a few months later it turned out that the FBI had not properly checked. The science in the case in the case fell apart. So that is what happened with. Ceo Seen See for example he was the interim chair of the physics department at Temple University in Philadelphia. He was charged with several felonies for transferring technology to China and it turned out that his communications with a lab in China were all fairly standard science cooperation issues. And in this is an issue that comes up again and again. In cases that many scientists in many fields are encouraged to collaborate with researchers in other countries in China and elsewhere and often. It's not clear where the line is. A new institutions are now trying to make that clearer in a number of cases the FBI has made mistakes and people's lives have been ruined. It's been interesting watching an you report on this. The work of the Chinese American community in trying to become active around this issue and trying to advocate for Chinese Americans who are being targeted by the FBI. That's right the the sheer number of cases that have been brought in the past two years and then Especially under the trump administration. There's been a renewed effort to bring cases involving China. And that is really galvanized on community of not just Chinese American scientists. But other community organizers who are concerned about history repeating itself and and having a case like the the went holy one of the late nineteen ninety s where You know turned into kind of a massive national issue and President Clinton all took ultimately Went Afars to apologize to win. Hales's remarkable tasos remind people case was he was a researcher at Los Alamos National Laboratories of One of the nuclear laboratories and there are several issues with that investigation but one is that it it really started with this assumption within the US. Government that China had stolen weapons secrets and then there was a search for whom I have stolen the secrets eventually. Investigators landed on when holy and many people feel like that was very unfair leap and escalated out of control. He was held in solitary confinement for many months and there was just a an enormous outcry as a result of the way. It was handled. You've also drilled into much more recent cases under the current trump administration over the last wolf threes. And the Siamese happening again and perhaps the most disturbing of all is the National Institutes of health one of the US as peak research agencies has started investigating has been investigating staff under the FBI's direction. Tell us watch that has revealed have legitimate cases being revealed the there's been a a very vigorous efforts within the The NIH to root out grant fraud and there were a number of researchers who had affiliations or have affiliations with Chinese institutions in Chinese grant programs. That they did not report so there was an issue with fraud. There may still be among some people. the concern is about the way that it's been handled and It's been highly criminalized In some cases the FBI caused a certain amount of confusion by going into institutions and doing these months-long into investigations and then it turns out that nobody's charged with a crime and many people just feel like they have been cast under polyp suspicion I think in popular mind to for a lot of people. Grant fraud has been conflated with economic espionage if I theft and in many cases it's not clear that because somebody was going to double dipping basically. We're taking money from the Chinese government and from the US government at the same time. It's not clear that that means that they were stealing. Ip An important distinction to make it is not okay to commit fraud but there may be a better way to to deal. Many people are pushing have anything to worry about are scared and under the trump administration in general is fairly xenophobic and trump has made a number of questionable statements about China and about Chinese American students and Chinese students so the combination of those two phenomenon is that there's just a pall of a fear that's been cast over many institutions and have resolved many scientists being extremely worried and you know certainly right now with the outbreak of scope in nineteen in this and quite a lot of anti Asian sentiment and hate incidence rising around the world. It's quite a hard time to be a member of the community. How hard was this story to report for you? Mara on the one hand you'll probing with. Racism is fueling paranoia about Chinese scientists and scholars in America but on the other hand trade secrets. Fifty industrial espionage economic espionage. Can Happen does happen. And it happens in China a lot. It seems to be partly driven and encouraged by the Chinese leadership even in the quest to become scientific and market leaders saying the Chinese government looks the other way quite a lot of the time. There's this priority. On achieving breakthroughs at all costs and a willingness to disregard abuses as they happen and right now. I think we're at this worrying moment. Where the United States and China are mirroring each other and behavior to some degree where both countries are led by nationalistic leaders who are intent on consolidating their power. Certainly the Chinese system is more authoritarian than the US. When at this point but it is has a lot of people worried about the direction that the two countries are headed. is in science in research are really shaping up to be a major flashpoint in that relationship. Sometimes these investigations can have the effect of driving people back to China. In some cases the people leave may have done something that they do not. WanNa talk to the FBI about But there are other cases where for example there collaborators. The people they work with day to day To deal with suddenly being called in for FBI interviews in Being the subject of suspicion and those people just got fed up and left because they they feel like they're suddenly target when they have not done anything wrong and it's incredibly difficult isn't it because the world wants a piece of China China wants a piece of the world and especially so in the scientific community. Collaboration is such a vital aspect of the work that goes on West and scientists collaborate with with Chinese scientists. All the time. Should we be skeptical of a security threat being posed by all of these collaborations? That's the sort of tone that is playing out in America right now right and I do think that researchers need to be more careful about these relationships you know there are incidences incidences. Where collaboration doesn't make sense? It is really not worth it for for researchers to be maintaining ties with Chinese institutions that. They're hiding also and for a long time. Nothing was done about about the issue visit naive eighties there among scientists about the biggest geopolitical backdrop on which these collaborations occur. I think they're losing that night in the in the United States. Because you know really. Cova nineteen break that is essentially a scientific issue in which is in which research in China's being thrust into the spotlight and collaboration could be critical to things like developing a vaccine. But it will also were more likely will enter this period of intense competition and already. We see nations becoming more nationalistic withdrawing into their borders. And that will likely continue to happen with research as well is in a great proportion of America's scientific community comes from China. A great proportion of Grad students come from China. That's right so whatever we do to deal with this issue of Ip we have to acknowledge the contributions of that community and address the issue in a way that does not alienate a large part of our research for us. Same thing with Chinese students. The trump administration has made some blanket statements at one point even reportedly considering banning all students from China and could have a really Negative effect on on our institutions. Where is Robert Mo today? What's his situation now? Robert Wall is right now. Actually in an immigration detention facility which most people's as far worse than federal prison and many of these places. Now have some significant outbreaks of Covet. Nineteen so that is Unfortunately where where? He ended up ultimately though he will be deported. Yes ultimately be deported. But I don't know that anyone for saw when this all started that you'd have a global pandemic in MTV's now there indefinitely and it's very hard for people to communicate with them. There are no visitors allowed as I understand and limited communication to but he could be there for many months and you mentioned plans for his future. Does he have a next stint when I when I met with him in prison? He told me that he was planning to go back to China and write a book and that he wanted to call it. Catch that Chinese spy. Oh Gosh and whether any consequences for the company that he worked for his sister's you know the company that he and he ceased to work for debut in this multibillion dollar agribusiness Chinese agribusiness giant. No Deanne is doing fine. Their stock prices took a slight dip after Robert was arrested. But they rebounded They fight other ups and downs. That are apparently unrelated to this case. Agriculture in general has been affected by the trade war with the United States. But there's no. It's not evident at all that. This case had any impact on the company just on Robert and his family. Congratulations on the investigation. It's it's a compelling raid. Yeah Extraordinary Times that we leave in thank you so much Mara for joining me. Thank you science journalist Mar Vista. Del Joining me from her home in. Minneapolis via skype. Her latest book is the scientist and the spy the true story of China the FBI and industrial espionage published by Penguin. Random House. Love to hear from you. Talk to me on twitter at Natasha Mitchell or emails from the science fiction website. The show is produced by me and Jane Lee. Tell the world about the podcast for us to do. There's always more in the podcast edition by the way. Then you'll hear on ABC radio national h week but catches whichever way by now you've been listening to an ABC podcast discover more great ABC. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen Up.

China FBI United States America Mara Monsanto scientist Midwest Robert Mo Robert theft researcher Chinese government ABC China China Robert Mall Natasha Mitchell Monsanto Stra
Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid

Death, Sex and Money

49:10 min | 6 months ago

Alice Wong On Ruckuses, Rage And Medicaid

"Death Sex and money is supported by bulldog online yoga the streaming platform that makes working out both fun and convenient with a variety of classes for all levels. bulldog online offers yoga streaming set to energizing playlist on your schedule with zero intimidation head over to bulldog online dot com today to stream your first thirty days completely free. That's bulldog online dot com. Hey, it's Anna and for the past few weeks, we have been asking you our listeners to become sustaining members of death sex and money. We depend on your donation so that we can keep making episodes and sharing them with you each week. I'm asking you if you can right now to join us and help keep the show financially strong. and. If you sign up right now to support us with ten dollars a month, we will send you our brand new show. Mug and one-sided has new gorgeous logo and on the other we decided to include the phrase do the next right thing. Yes. It's a song and frozen to, and it's also a slogan used often in the recovery community. As we heard a few months ago from a sober listener, we called Khloe when I I talk to at the beginning of the pandemic. You don't have to figure out the next ten steps. You just have to figure out the next. Day. That's Khloe and I called her up again just this week you inspired our new mug. Thank you at. So Cute I. Really. Want you to picture someone who receives the death sex and money to the next thing mug. And they are having their morning coffee or tea. And they're feeling sort of overwhelmed. What would you say to that person who's just like staring at their mug and trying to think of Cata organized their thoughts I would say that. The next right thing. Is Always. Always, really really simple. and. If you take a stack and you start. Your Day. By finishing your cup of coffee or. Whatever You're doing it. And be proud of yourself because this has been a really hard year and. You're doing a really good job. Thanks to Khloe for her words back at the start of the pandemic, and now we have about one hundred and fifty mugs left in. It's our goal to send out every last one of them to thank you for donating. So please give now this is a time when we are really relying on our listeners to do what they can to financially support the community we've built here at sexy money. A lot is uncertain but if you're able right now to join your fellow listeners and donate, you'll sure us up to get through this time together. Go to death sex money dot org slash donate or you can check out a picture of our new mug or text Dsm to the number seven Oh one. Oh, one and I hope you'll send us a picture of you enjoying your dog you get it. Thanks so much. Listener supported W in wiessee studios. Asset to favorite precision. A board with my disability. I grew up. Adults always. petition seven. there. Were divorced teachers that just Thought Oh dinovite order trawlers. Just. Geared badgered. People were significant disabilities. Do. We will dollars That's. Very. This is death sex. The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot. Need to talk about. I mean a sale. Disability Rights Activists Alex. Wong lives in San? Francisco. With her recently, it was pretty early in the morning for her. I do to the. Guy Out early Bursa. Is, great for me. It's. Does that mean you sleep during the day? Are you nocturnal? Over here it's of Eight. AM They tried to us so? Wait. So when did you? When did you last sleep but what time? Three peer yesterday. Oh It's when you woke up. When do you think you'll go to bed a jump? Right after this What do you like about being up in the middle of the night? Alert just. The quietness, I loved. Structured especially. I've been working for for. Eight years but. I just love sister. Alice recently edited a new book called Disability Visibility First Person Stories from the twenty first century. It's an essay collection with contributions from people with a wide range of disabilities who right with real candor often humor. The whole thing's got a real death sex and money by. Alice has a form of muscular dystrophy. She uses a wheelchair to get around and whereas the bypass machine to help her breathe which you'll hear throughout our conversation. And like many people alice has been sheltering in place since the start of the covid nineteen pandemic in the US. But in some ways being home, a lot has been familiar for her. If authors with. Fritz professorships. Does? Place. Ready. To thapar visits. User. Just spit advice. Tab Has. The Lucci at. Does. Through Lucia society about. virus. House isn't the only high risk person her household she lives with her parents who are both in their seventies. Alice is forty six. Now, her parents have been her primary caregivers for most of her life. That's. Severe always appreciated in stats. Get up appears central five off. It's. Very fear that. Never Time supports. Didn't fever over there at. Did I do that's Offenders hardship the. First Apple. I realize as jurist person. Fat. It was do The. Recovery. Served because of. Pre shirt. A. Dental abuses. off about that. It wasn't. Gateway to. Bid Should be Review of yards church. Installed for every here it sounds like your dad described the world as it is to you he didn't sugarcoat it. He's like to ensure you as part of our family costs, extra money, and that's the reality of the society we living in. Here Pretty here's. A T.. Your eighteen now. The bees richer. County office. Is usually forbidden. What's Ours learnt. Other. What is operatives? Does dotes. Your attentiveness. The Juno. Years. The huge costs. Through. I was Joan. Do do it'll get teenager. Does editors. For Poor people. Just is. UNFERTILIZED Whatever. WE BS at that. Alpha Alphonso. These portraits are. Because they keep. Arche beauty. I don't they brutally. Elise hope supports. Those. Era that allows. WHO Live with personal assistance. IS SORT OF A. Institution. But pity other. Programs. To be. Pitches. So because the by. Personal deeds. I've done about half. Over two thousand dollars. DIP DETAILS AT A. Job. On Earth Bus. So, all these days have. Kept, be for. Heavy four of our tease. Usual Here before adults. They didn't have for. The Dent Stage for the future. Don't, avenue it face. What's the monthly cap on what you're able to earn? Gate A. would. The disabled made earn up. To. Two and a half times depravity rates. So two and a half times. The poverty rate I believe is. KIP A forty thousand since. Through looked I think it's Forty Ish. How how do you feel about that earning limit? Does it feel like a relief that there's only so much you can try to earn or does it feel like a? Cap On your ambition. It is absolutely you're via I think give it has theorists. Of Civic, able is A. Defect that. There's a limited purely. Because the way our society. is organized. Sisters. To live every day. At a bed have. People it's. People that work for you at your. Job, you do the everyday. Activities of is. Third for those reasons alone? Justifies. Cashiers to trade off. To live. APP. Or Policy? Doodad realized that. To be poor are. A lot of work. Is basically a part time job it's herself. Usually document everything. Because you're trying to read. As a disabled person asked. To, prove your. Your disability, all the time just didn't always Richard Firms Do the services. You have req-. All the different things cannot not do. Justice jokesters oops. Sure this you are eligible. Yeah, and it's this mix of you having to to show the government that you are both deserving of help and also dependent enough like need help enough. So it's this combination of showing worthiness and also. vulnerability. If Feeder fish tough nights. Yeah. There's always For much hyper vigilant. About by bake numbers about assets. Trips of. About It. Is Worth not be better. Pastry. But it is referring. Alice grew up near Indianapolis. The oldest of three sisters her parents emigrated to the United States from Hong Kong a few years before she was born, she was diagnosed with muscular dystrophy as a toddler. But disparity for all. Approved for the. Treaties bears you. Serve. Boosts are disappearing decision. Recruiter. was twin singer. Davos. Way We're all. Up. Diverse on educated. Myself? Dibyo Very. Soon Repeatedly. Centered. Around. A. Church. Anna. Differences. By. Plays. It are people that. Such SISTERS Do that. How did your personal care work when you were a kid growing up in your house? Was it family members who helped take care of you? Yes. That's There's fish foods or Get. Instrument. With mostly. By beards Officers has. Older. Born hope Fair. older. Didn't revolve smell Religion. BE A. Versus. The fact that. Every paper by sample laid? OFF TO BE WITH MY? Personal. CARE. Did Little Race I was. Up for. Did you enjoy high school. Oh Gosh. The truth. Yes. Do you want the truth. On Your Third Triad. US You this question. Begins Down Or. Conversely. Out Scroll. oncologists. Pursue. Egerton Vive that. I was. You answered your. Grade before was. Much I do. Much better. alleged. US. Church. With At an early age. It From. You can thank your high school experience or tapping into your range. I want to understand just just so. So I so I get what was what was. The feeling at the time that you have an experience of where people directly cruel to you and bullied you or was it more the feeling of just being invisible and not seen? It's very because. I was visible gets. Peacefully visible at the same time. you. Computer users at this. Lecture was. It his office. Because, other factors were. digits didn't even. Think about. Beauty residents surgery or disparage. the. Bus. DROPPING OFF Coupon through. Thirty or forty minutes? Before school started. Because the that was. The. Others disabled students. Are. descru-. It'll be, pitch dark. allergists. For. The sitter store rise? The was burned. On Sports? Teacher. refused. Hunt. me. To defendthem Didn't. Which Turn. For this story. Tonight you WanNa hear I love dies is I did not realize. Doers this diversity type here for there's Here just giving me a guest. The, Digest. Okay. No. More. Based laughed. As. For drama. Sir trouble what? Don't by this tutor. Editor. Here at A. B.. R. Up. For shorter two. For the district. After trump since the. Returns Tim Sir. The DUTERTE. Detroit were to. Begin into serves. fulfil. The requirements. To. The retreive it's. There was. Associated. Peer to buy. It because. Futures Cheers user? Just preserved. PERF-. Reduced. Cheer. It was are you sure? He's a curious. So, unprepared to the teacher. Wasn't ostracized. Reconsider Sir. I'm sorry two fish fish so. Our just. Seems. It's ruined. On critters. Do jeter's. Becomes. The participants. Here, imagine should. Or? This To. People. Don't. Especially educator. Mussa. Spruce to. Bridge Open people. Get the best senator. Soon. She the Best Ridge be. I'm. Curious how you felt rage? Did you did your as a teenager? Did you tell people what had happened that that had been withheld from you? Also horrible. Crisp Trader Fronts at. The forties Would have does have serious stuff. But At that time with Raiders. Sue. Conscious virtually. Deters of these. Council Did anybody else. It AUDEN's Lebron I also did it really. Sure this that much with my parents. because. It regret that now. The types. Very. Careful. Advocated for. Desert you to. Raise I place. The responsibility on. Film that's. Ever to be. Self reliant or. How to make a Ruckus. Or Jupiter. Jupiter. Coming up. Alice. College but the reality of attending was Howard. View. Get a letter for the I. If. Dishes. Fritz. It's The voreqe. Interfere treat nice. To. Believe it. Theatres, nearest. A couple of weeks ago I talked with Joann. Allen who host the podcast been there done that she told me about what her own experience of getting older has been like especially in the last year, and we told you that Joanne is going to be hosting a special project for debt sex and money about aging and judging from how many of you we've already heard from. This is something you are ready to talk about to. I'm grateful. Nine Regal I'm grateful for my second. Chin I am grateful for my gray hair and even grateful for my aches and pains. Have noticed a lot of. Changes in my sexuality. Just in the last few years I'm like Joanne I don't like getting older. But I'm trying to deal with it. Life has changed. I'm excited little nerve racking and I getting. Well if inevitable and I'm trying to do the. Damn job a of. Our inbox is full of your stories about all the things that are good about getting older and a lot of the things that are hard to. So if you're over sixty, we want to hear from you to tell us what's your life like right now, and how are you feeling your age differently this year than last year you can record voice memo or send us an email to death sex money at WNYC DOT, Org can also leave a message at the phone number nine, one, seven, seven, four, zero, six, five, four, nine. If you missed that episode where I talked with Joanne about her own experience of getting older, check it out, you can find it at death sex money, dot org slash aging, and if you're not over sixty, you can still spread the word about this project and send that episode to someone in Your Life who bids. Hey. Before we get back to the show, just another quick reminder that we are asking you to please donate to death sex and money and become a sustaining member if you can. This is a critical time for us and your support really matters go to death sex money dot org slash donate or text Dsm to the number seven Oh one a one. Thank you so much. If you've been having a hard time customizing your workout to fit your new life style these days you're not alone that sex and money is supported by bulldog online yoga, the streaming platform that makes working out both fun and convenient. Strength Relieves stress and get your stretch on with easy to use APPs for your computer phone and Smart TV with classes that range from ten to sixty minutes. bulldog sets all online yoga classes to custom spotify playlists that will have you smiling while you sweat it out head over to bulldog online dot com today and get thirty days free. That's bulldog online dot com to stream your first thirty days completely free. The. September eleventh terrorist attacks changed the world. There's a sense that they came out of nowhere they didn't. I'm Jim O'Grady and my new podcast I'm going to revisit the evidence in question the people at the center of the story. I don't WanNA use the word panic. Let's kind of trade is sell drama thin revenge blind blindspot the road to nine eleven a new podcast series from history and WNYC studios listened wherever you get your podcast. This is death sex and money from WNYC I'm ANA sale. Alice Wong started college in. Nineteen Ninety two two years after the Americans with disabilities act became law she enrolled at earldom college her dreams school a quaker liberal arts college about an hour and a half away from home where Allah says only one dorm was accessible to her at the time. Averaged I. Biz. User infer. It through. To choose. Sir, this rooms. Through run through. Abyss. The business, the only bathroom on campus you could see. Wow. I was determined. To. Get this. Because Don's driven by. DEB's. Room strouss. It was thoroughly to be. When you went to Earl when you I knew I left left home and lived in that dorm was up the first time. You had personal care assistance who weren't related to you. Yes. Is it nice so you're an eighteen year old woman and Just what was Did anyone help you figure out how to communicate with them about how you wanted to be. Touched treated cared for. How did you learn about? Dick. Reveals The able to sure different murkier. stabilize. But. Bruce. Now flow. I think. You refined. Answers for. Boost entities. As there is A. Speed. For Antigen. People situation but also. Bright agree with that. Hugh versions of the century will? Give to catch up. Done for `cuse. River. After release communicates. It it away does effective sue Since the situation. Reduced to silver. Different people. Different If OPIE CHOOSE THE BATHROOM THROUGH Entities be. Bonded. A. Party, Spent for this stunt but. I've only At the experts. To. This is the way I prefer. To be Spy sees jurist. Repeats. On WHO's Inches in Spring A. Super Organized It hurts be. Really fear. Wait when you say organized in your brain, do you mean what does that mean like? What are the things that you're having to make sure our SORTA. Stood or race. It. Twice Bent. Fall. super-g. CIVIC drunks Disappointed do. Survey. Debris. Do. Y- Aug. Different of. Variables but also. Be, burned for like. A restaurant around last. Year by. All the stuff. was. Time before vive. for. Front versus dollars service. Gives costed. Turtle Foundation. Different stuff to gender. After. votes. He didn't lose. With the Do seed. Address. Ashley PRESBYTERY batory fielder. Did? Over. Stirring. Even, her free it's first semester. take. A. Year. Off School December two. Brings. were. Visit Kipper. sliced. A hand to be. The group. decided. Afternoon Statue. To beauts. Is. is done through. The university. It it up the stupidest of. This is a Commuter campus. Nets. Toyota Dodgers Working. There for Device Co... DAVINCI's this was. As As It was. Difficult. Is it beginning? June I. Think parents. OFFICIALS THEY DROVE Through France. Didn't I didn't have. It is sensible It all day. For being. A. Fantastic experienced. Really. Appreciate. It strikes me Alice. It's interesting that it was the. The campus that served nontraditional students. That was the one that could imagine. Possibilities for you that people in high at your high school or at the private fancy. Liberal Arts. Humbly the because. With our I should have. A. Church base. Wonderful Opportunities. Diverge. Get. Better situation. Even though I, didn't have. Dose if missiles. What's Your person who? Did it, Kuta Percy's I. Didn't do anything wild. Departed above. Alice, finally left Indiana for San Francisco in nineteen ninety seven to get her masters in medical sociology at the University of California San Francisco and being there was a lot of what she'd hope for. Still. Certainly you saw rich. Soon ready for. Resurgent. was such a relief it was. Just. Zoom which THRILLS I. The food thank. The coacher. Through rather? just. Days that are. Footsteps. Door. Stir. Out For, US. Really, device still. Unofficial for herself. What did you do on the weekends when in that time of your life when you were first getting to know the city? Emphasis. Virtues exploring. The different. David. Search. Georgia part start March was. Actually Water Distance For campus to go to the park which is. A busy. True servers. Sensible. Diverse. Really. Be Able to. Do Perjury At Over myself. Different hockey's. Pat You ever done that before like to be able to travel around the city. Ever Saddam was. Struggling. Through range. Little Adventure. When you moved to San. Francisco, did your parents also move? Foodie the. Third Time it was. Difficult. Part. Workers early. Fatter of. Reasons. Very, few benefits. Versus. definitive. First job searches. For better. The plan was. Too. Stringent Research be. Searchers periods. Didn't question sooner. People. upstate risque. By. Bob. Engineer. Here. Britain some speakers. She dentist rule. Arisen through. Schieffer's trump's Derek Community Consumer to. Stiffer sister station I in. A. I. I loved that that. She moved how to help you and and what could from the outside you know just sort of like when you hear that part of the story, you think like, Oh maybe you felt. Emden by having your mom there and maybe your mom felt some sense of obligation. But that both of you were able to find a real sense of freedom and expansion. In this new life together is so cool. Time after. Three three kids. Yeah. This. Just got. Does really. Alice's dad eventually moved to San Francisco to join them as well and these days while Alice's parents still help with her care. She's also thinking about their as they get older. During a dispute. Eddie before. I was Predator. Terrain to. Honor. fortures because. I did have set. Your workers. Through the here's to. Supernatural. assistance. because. Should've been over Garrett's? Feel recieve. Different? In. For Do. Not, this virtuous of. Vivid Spine. Appear purchasers. release. started. Berge A. Dinner Advanced Directives I did did didn't very? Strange targeted but. Also the other adultery that's Did Address I did because? You to Denver do it just? To be to plan a way to win, you just did your advanced directive. I didn't ever arch. Very. Thirty two presidents. Orchard Verges of our. Defense. So you're in your mid forties what prompted you to do your advanced directive in March. Lou Records. State. Friday because. Get deported there. Digital be reloaded. Make sure that. Their bridges are. Documented at. The, every order. So that's Sisters Dot. Will after a? Difficult decision. Didn't reverse district Days for years but. The federal. Guarantor. Abyss stubborn. Both my parents are Brigitta. Treat. Doubt by it's better. A prodigious they. Did all the as kids? Adults to return to art. that. The PFISTER did recruiter. through this. Have you noticed your relationship with them? Change as. You're noticing them aging that after. After a lifetime of them looking out for you are you noticing some of their physical limitations in a way that? Is Changing the way you all. Relate to each other. Do if an early sign. I did. For lunch you know. Even at an early age. Beaver all ferry. Sink As the oldest trials. Due to do. Not Sit out. Kim it different ways. Do Boarder just. Superintendent requires, care? Anything big. Day Homes Do. Sloppy as smell so much. Studer. For much. refreshes. The road. Our. of this highway. Be. Faucets yes. To do all the research Tortures. Do. Reportedly, but S-. Versus self appointed organizer Chief. Products. It I think. It's also. They appreciate. Purchase I appreciate. That's Alice Wong. Her new book is called disability visibility first person. Stories from the twenty first century. You can check out her podcast also called disability visibility wherever you listen. Death sex and money is a listener supported production of WNYC studios in New York I'm usually based at the studios of the investigative podcast reveal in emoryville, Calif. `Apie. Yellow do produce this episode. The rest of our team includes Katie, Bishop Annabel Bacon Emily Boutin and Andrew. Done The Reverend John doerr in St Louis wrote our theme music. I'm on twitter at Anna Sale. The show is at depth sex money on twitter instagram and Facebook, and thanks to Mya Garretson in Saint George Utah was a sustaining member of death sex and money join me and support what we do here by going to death sex money dot ORG SLASH DONATE Alice, told me she is proud of her new book and also likes to think what her teenage self would be able to do with it if she were back in high school. Probably. SHIFT AT BIRCH FURTIVE DISTRICTS FACE legit. Dis Bad. People. Do We Hargeisa. Days. Still. To. Do, fritzy period survive. I. Did Field on. I'm Anna Sale and is Death Saxon money from WNYC The. Ten Thousand Vega and all month on WNYC's national talk show the takeaway were exploring the issues that matter most to Latino voters. So if you're a Latino Listener, we want to hear from you what's most urgent for you and your family in this election, call us with your stories at eight, seven, seven, eight, six, nine, eight to five three. German no the ultra wave or Chin those sequin by threats, and for more on the Latino vote subscribe to the takeaway wherever you get your podcasts.

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Weekend at Bernies

Today, Explained

24:00 min | 1 year ago

Weekend at Bernies

"Exp explain all of you know. We won the popular vote in Iowa. We won the New Hampshire primary and according to three networks in the AP We don one Nevada Caucus. I mean he blew everybody else. Out of the Water Bernie was close to forty seven percent of the overall vote and the next closest candidate was Joe Biden who was at twenty percent and then peop- Gouda judge was at thirteen percent. It was interesting because Biden's campaign was definitely kind of spinning Nevada as his second place. Finish his comeback or not on the final results yet. But I feel really good. You put me the position ready to declare people dead quickly but we're alive and we're coming back we're GONNA win but when you look at margin it's over twenty points so it's kind of hard to spend that as an amazing comeback. I wrote a piece on the entrance. Polls that were coming out before we were starting to get final results. Bernie was leading among white voters. He was leading among with you know in Hispanic voters. He was leading among every other age. Category besides sixty five and older nobody. You just put together a multi generational multi racial coalition. Which is not only win in Nevada. It's GONNA sweep this country and it was really interesting when you look at ideology. He was both blowing everybody else out of the water when it came to very liberal voters. I think he had like fifty percent of people who self identified as very liberal but he was also leading among people who identified as more moderate or conservative so it was just a very decisive. Win in New Hampshire. It was a narrow win. It didn't necessarily show that he had really expanded his his base of support which is kind of Bernie Sanders main theory for how he can win. The presidency is by turning out groups that haven't typically gone to the polls before reliably certainly Latino voters is a big one of the really bringing our people together black and white and Latino native American and so I think that Nevada was really kind of the best proving ground for this test of whether he could turn out a diverse slate of voters and and he proved that that he could do that on Saturday. Night powder doing with Latinos in the end. He was over fifty percent. Among Latino Voters Biden was like the next closest but I think the entrance polls had biden either in the twenties or late teens among Latino voters pulling at that percents one strategist. I was talking to in Nevada before the caucus happened. Was saying you know. The media has been focusing so much on Biden support among black voters as kind of providing this firewall kind of at the expense of realizing how much work sanders has put into the Latino community. I mean he has hired a lot of Latino folks to be at the top of his campaign you know. He has a senior adviser. Who Is Latino? Who has been organizing in the community for many years? He has a lot of state directors. That are Latino. He has people that are not just outsiders coming into the community kind of asking them to turn out to vote at the last minute which I think. Many Latinos you'll like. The Democratic Party has been doing over past elections. They were on the ground ten months ago in Nevada. Organizing an East Las Vegas which is very heavily Latino community and so I think what they're trying to do is be talking to people. Early be hearing their concerns and offering policy positions that meet those concerns early and just really trying to hit home that Sanders administration would put the concerns of Latinos forefront rather than them being an afterthought and beyond Latinos. Nevada is a much more diverse. State overall. The New Hampshire Iowa. How did that work out for burning? It really worked in his favor really well and I think that you next up. It's it's a whole different test because South Carolina is coming up and the conventional wisdom is that Biden has a lock on the African American vote. He was part of the Obama Administration and Obama's still really beloved in black communities in the south. But then you have to remember that through just three days after South. Carolina is really the Big Day and this is Super Tuesday. This is where a huge number of delegates are up for grabs. We have states like Texas. We have states like California which has four hundred delegates or more up for grabs and these are states especially Texas and California that have heavy Latino populations and if he does really well on Super Tuesday. We're GONNA have a lot better of an idea of how close he might be winning the nomination and this wasn't just about racial demographics you're not the only one who cares about the working class. Most Americans believe we need to empower workers. As a matter of fact. You're the one who is at war with the Culinary Union right here in Las Vegas dreamed of we supportive unions all across the division. I'm putting forward has the support of the American people. There's this kind of intense moment in the last debate. Where Mayor Pete Challenge Bernie on whether or not he would be the best choice for workers in the country to that end up having an impact on the Caucasus. So for those who may not be familiar to the Culinary Union is the most powerful Union in Las Vegas and maybe in the state and it's a hospitality workers union so the Culinary Union didn't endorse anybody but the leadership made it pretty clear who they didn't want and that was sanders and the big reason that they had was they didn't like standards. Medicare for all plan because they were afraid that it was going to take away their union health insurance that they have fought for for many many years but basically what happened on caucus day. Was something really interesting? The actual union members were voting for Sanders and reporters. Who were there on the ground? Were interviewing these folks and a reason that kept coming up was yes. They really liked their union health insurance but they also saw a lot of friends and family. Who didn't have the benefit of this union health insurance because they weren't Culinary Union members? Are you know maybe they were undocumented and just couldn't get health care at all and so they wanted to basically make sure that their friends and family had the same access to healthcare that they did and they saw sanders Medicare for all plan as kind of the best way to get that the message from the Culinary Union though you know like being scared of losing healthcare to a Medicare for all. That's something we've been hearing for a long time from the democratic establishment for MORE MODERATE CANDIDATES ABOUT BERNIE. How did the establishment reactive? Bernie's huge landslide. Win I think that folks in the establishment are getting a little nervous. But I think at this point the moderate vote is still so splintered that you know the establishment hasn't doesn't really have an answer for sanders rise. Msnbc in particular had James Carville on this thing is going very well a Putin. I promise you he. He's probably staying up watching US right now. How you doing Chris Matthews Jerusalem Interesting World War. Two comparisons reading last night about the fall of France in the summer of nineteen forty and the general Renault. Churchill and says it's over and shows just how can it be you got the greatest army in Europe? How can it be over? He said it's over. Is this just the democratic establishment having a tough time with the Democratic Socialist Being The undisputed frontrunner? Now they're struggling with that fact but I think that there is a decent amount of questions about what does this mean for down ballot races. What does this mean for house? Races and Senate races because I mean if Republicans retained control of the Senate and Mitch McConnell remains Senate majority leader any of these big ideas that Bernie Sanders wants to get done like the green new deal or Medicare for all are essentially dead in the water. I mean he can certainly pass stuff by executive order but he is going to have as much or more opposition than president. Obama had with Mitch McConnell in the Senate and that's not going to stop anytime soon and could potentially get worse if Democrats also theoretically lost the House after Bernie one New Hampshire. We spoke to you but then we also spoke to our colleague Matthew mcglesias who said that you know Bernie's just using these ambitious plans as a negotiating tactic and if he wins the Presidency Matthew believes that he might actually you know compromise and settle for something a little less than say Medicare for all like a public option. And who knows? Maybe that applies to the green deal to have you seen Bernie alluding to that anywhere on the campaign trail. I don't think on policy positions. He has been ready to compromise. I mean why should he? He's not going to necessarily especially in a primary election gin up the base being like. And we're GONNA compromise on Medicare for all and I think if that comes out at all it might come out more so in a general election when he you know has to appeal to some more moderate or Republican voters who who just don't like trump and want to see a serious alternative to trump. We have to remember that lake negotiating stuff in Washington and like promising stuff on the campaign trail are two very different things and usually presidents Wednesday. Our elected tend to soften their rhetoric because they're bumping into the actual rubber hitting the road of negotiating and getting policies done in Washington DC L. Nelson covers politics at vox and after the break. What Bernie's win means for everyone else in the race? You know. Bloomberg Biden Oda Judge. Gabbard advertiser content millennials are in debt like a trillion dollars in debt colleges. Expensive rents are high and social media. Keeps telling us to treat ourselves at all. This is hurting our wallets and our wellbeing. Your World World Globally explained this as millennial debt explained brought to you by lending tree student loans high cost of living and credit card debt. Make up most of that trillion dollars. That millennials on top of that foam fueled by social media has caused a third of millennials. To say they feel the need to spend to keep up with their friends even more astounding. The impact of sustained debt is affecting their health. Studies show a third of millennial suffer from anxiety or depression. Far More than ever before and over. Half of millennials say their mental health suffers because of their debt figuring out finances can also feel like a black box think about student loans. Sixty five percent of students say. They didn't understand the terms of their loan when they got it. If getting your finances and check as part of your plan for twenty twenty checkout lending trees marketplace. They can help you consolidate debts. Find the right loan for you and get you on the path to financial independence. Find out more at lending tree dot com. That's lending tree dot com. Hello very quickly. I would like to tell you about one of my favorite websites. It's called eater whenever I'm going to a new city and I want to find out what that city's best restaurants might be or the cheapest restaurants or their best pizza. I just go to either. I Google you know best restaurants Eater Alabama. That's not a city that I know anyway. Eater also makes a TV show. It's called no passport. Required and the second season is out. Now it's on PBS. The shows hosted by a chef named Marcus Samuelsson. You might know if you've ever been to a spot in Harlem called the Red Rooster. No passport required celebrates immigrant communities across the United States and they're very important contributions to their cities. Food seems Los Angeles is huge. Armenian community The West African expatriates in Houston. We've got Italian Americans in Billy Chinese American community in Vegas. We've got all sorts of portuguese-speaking cultures and Boston from from Brazil. Cape Verde Portugal itself. Check it out right now. No passport required season. Two is on. Pbs Weekly at nine. Eight central on Mondays or stream the entire season now at PBS org slash no has required twin a lease. Oh box we've got three states in the books now. We had in Nevada on Saturday. We had New Hampshire a couple of weeks ago and who knows what happened there but South Carolina is coming up this Saturday and it seems like there's a lot riding on South Carolina. Is that right? Yeah there's a lot at stake for all of the different candidates okay. So the biggest one is papa. Joe Biden yes. Yeah Joe Biden is really looking to South Carolina as the place that's going to rejuvenate his campaign which has struggled to pick up momentum up till points and a big reason for that is because one of his strongest spaces has always been among older African American voters and they have a massive presence in South Carolina. Where the democratic electorate is about sixty percent African American So Joe Biden has really said listen. Let's wait until South Carolina to see what may be a more diverse electorate has to say and try to go from there. Ninety nine point nine percent. That's the percentage of voters who have not yet had a chance to vote in America. One more number ninety nine point eight. That's the percent of the Latino voters every night. A chance to vote. So when you hear all these pundits and experts cable. Tv talkers talked about the race Tell van it ain't over man we're just starting but we did just get a hint of how a more diverse electorate would vote in. Nevada and it didn't go Biden's way have any of the losses. He's suffered in Nevada New Hampshire. The question mark hanging over Iowa affected him. This far yet totally. I think it's really shaken people's faith in him as the candidate. That's framed himself. As the most electable. I think multiple people I've talked to especially critics of by it in. We'll say if you claim that you're the most electable you have to win an election to prove that and so far in the primary goal. We haven't seen that happen. And he's really looking to South Carolina's the place where he can prove that out. I think something worth noting is last fall. He was crushing it. In the state he had a twenty point lead in the polls is some of his support flagging because he may be took the older black vote for granted. Do you not nurtured as one should. That is at the impression of many people in the state the sense that he assumed he was going to win. So you know he put in. Maybe more time. And I win New Hampshire and didn't spend as much time as much money in South Carolina The Post and courier does tracker of the twenty twenty candidates. And when you look at the number of events Joe Biden has held in South Carolina. He is trailing Bernie Sanders. He's trailing Tom Steyer. He is trailing Tim. Ryan dropped out a long time ago. So I think that gives you a sense of just how much face time. He's putting in in the state. If you lose in South Carolina is that the Chi- Bosch on the Biden Camping. I think it is. I think because of the way that they frame this as the place. That's going to save him if it doesn't save him. Then he is in a really bad spot on top that I think right after South Carolina you have Super Tuesday which is just a few days after and the assumption is that probably no candidates are going to drop out right after South Carolina because Super Tuesday so close but you go into that massive race with a much weaker positioning if you do poorly in South Carolina if Biden wins in South Carolina. What does that mean for him? And Super Tuesday. It gives him a bit more momentum. I don't think it's like totally guaranteed winner. Victory for him moving forward But the reason South Carolina has mattered in the past a for the momentum but also because you see several states but later in March ending voting the same way so that includes Alabama and some other places largely because the democratic electorate in those states is very similar to South Carolina where you have a larger proportion of African American voters the other candidate who seems to be betting big on South Carolina. Is I wear the same tie every day but maybe different ties but the same style at least Tom Steyer. Yes Yeah Tom. Steyer has spent more than eighteen million dollars in advertising in the state and on top of that he has hired over one hundred. Staffers which is just the largest presence that we've seen from any campaign thus far a big part of it is similar to the Biden logic. He's thinking that if he does really well in South Carolina that will help him really have a springboard moving forward since he hasn't really picked up any kind of traction up till now. What about our other friends? Amy and Pete Amy and I think also face a really big question largely because both of them have struggled to get any kind of support from African American voters Both because they had questions about their respective records a white South Bend police officer shot and killed a black man. The incident has sparked outrage in the community and a call for mayor. Pete footage to take action. I will say that if anyone who is on patrol is shown to be a racist or to do something racist in a way that is substantiated. That is their last day on the street. Amy Similarly Gotten questions about her record as a prosecutor a new Associated Press Investigation suggests twenty twenty presidential candidate. Amy Klobuchar may have sent an innocent teen to prison. Nearly eighteen years ago as a top prosecutor in Minnesota Club Rashard tried the case of sixteen year. Old Mayan Burrell. He was suspected of fatally shooting. Eleven-year-old Tisha Edwards. Neither of them has really been able to. I think make inroads with African American voters and when you look at a recent poll from South Carolina from winthrop university. I think Pete had one percent support. And Amy add so little that it didn't register in the poll so T. L. D. I for both of them. This is a big chance to show that. They have made progress on this front or an indication that they haven't and if they don't I think it makes it a lot harder for them to continue to grow their support moving forward. I think it's very hard to make the case that used to be the Democratic nominee. When you don't have the support of a critical constituency in the democratic base and what about Old Friends Elizabeth Warren and Bernard Sanders? What will South Carolina hold for them? Let's start with Warren Elizabeth. Warren at this point also has been floating a little bit in the middle of the pack. And I think we'll probably see something similar in South Carolina. She hasn't struggled as much with African American voters. As P or as amy but she also hasn't really done an amazing job effectively connecting with people and also hasn't had I think as frequent appearances in South Carolina. So I'm not thinking that will see anything massive. It's worth noting that If anybody watched the Las Vegas debate you saw. She had a really incredible nights and had a massive breakout moment as she took on Mike Bloomberg so that performance potentially help give her lifting the state We saw that a little bit with voters in Nevada that decided at the last minute But what's unique to the state is that it had early voting this year so a lot of people actually voted prior to the debate itself And were able to factor it in whereas in South Carolina. We might see more folks who actually did watch the debate and made their decision based on them and that leaves the senator from Vermont. I mean Bernie proved that he can bring together a diverse coalition in Nevada. This weekend does that bode well for South Carolina. It definitely does and if you look at where he is a mistake he is doing really well. People who are there remember twenty sixteen when he got completely crushed by Hillary Clinton? I think she won by fifty points and to see him pulling in such a strong position to continuing to bring back support. has been interesting for people on the ground and I think a really good sign for his candidacy. He can continue this consistent positioning as a front runner across all these different states. Not just you know the Super White. I wouldn't New Hampshire Electric. Ah We've talked about before. So we've got South Carolina coming up on Saturday immediately thereafter. It's Super Tuesday. I feel like we've been looking at same few faces for an eternity now is it. Is it all finally starting to take shape? It feels like it. Is I think right. Now there's still so much up in the air but after Super Tuesday in particular. I think we'll have a much better sense of. Who is you know doing well and who might be calling their campaign quits. I would say that there is still a ton of uncertainty in the race There's a lot that continues to change considered the front runner even a month ago. You Know Joe Biden is not looking as strong as he used to be. I think the person who's Dow really being in that position as Bernie Sanders and it will be interesting to see how candidacy continues to play out. As more diverse states continue to vote and how people respond to him as a candidate he has you know identified himself as a democratic socialist which has been polarizing for some people and I think prompted questions about how he would play with a broader electorate. Whether or not he's going to be able to continue to answer. Those questions will be interesting to see and whether I think voters continue to support him and what he stands for will be the big thing that people are watching. Lisa writes about politics at box. She and Ellen Nelson. We're working on weekend and you can read all debate coverage from them and the rest of our politics team at box dot com. I'm Shawn Ramos Room. This is today explained.

South Carolina Bernie Sanders Joe Biden Nevada Pete Challenge Bernie New Hampshire Las Vegas biden Iowa Medicare US Bloomberg Biden Oda Obama Democratic Party Pete Amy Nevada Caucus Culinary Union Pete Tom Steyer
Bernie, bro.

Today, Explained

23:39 min | 1 year ago

Bernie, bro.

"Sometimes the world's problems can seem overwhelming climate change. Sexism walked tons out. There are people all over the world working working to solve these problems. All I want to find a solution We can bring clean drinking water through Michael Trip. We are going to focus. Focus on we can do today to make the world just a little bit better subscribe to course correction from Doha debates. Wherever you get your podcasts thank you thank you? Let me say tonight that this victory here is the beginning of the end. FOR DONALD TRUMP UP L.. Nilsson tell the people where you are. Where did you reporting for votes from right now? So I am in the Field House of southern New Hampshire University where Bernie Sanders just addressed a very loud. The crowd people are hugging each other. I don't know if you can hear that but there are some chanting going on over here. It was kind of funny seeing Bernie like a man who doesn't doesn't smile that often I feel like he was just beaming. When he came came out tonight and address? People do any of his followers of editing. Interesting to say to you while you were there tight here especially the ones that have been with him in two thousand sixteen feel oh like they have never been this close to him winning the nomination like I think that there's this palpable feeling that he could really do it. This time Especially especially if he does well with with black voters and Latino voters that that he has a real path to the Democratic nomination and people here. We're really excited about that. What the other thing was? I actually talked to somebody who was from Berlin Germany. Who came all the way out here? I mean he I think he he works in the. US Ask sometimes but He he volunteers volunteering with this sanders campaign for the past few weeks along with he said some people from Norway and some people from Denmark sure they love socialism out there yeah. I Love Democratic Socialism out there and I mean yeah I mean he was sort of saying like he has certainly never never been this excited about a an American candidate. I mean he was just saying it's really exciting to see a candidate fighting so openly for a lot of the things that Europe already be has basically a lot of the programs that they already have. And how is turnout tonight. People were saying that the turnout in Iowa didn't Great Democrats are planning to beat Donald Trump in the general election election. How was it tonight New Hampshire? It was actually better than than twenty sixteen levels according to some of the initial reports that we saw. I'm not ready to make any big big predictions yet on how this could impact general election turnout but the other thing is you know. It's also hard to judge because there was no competitive Republican Primary Mary here so it's tough to tell how Republicans might also turn out in the general election. How about second in third? How other people do yes? So I mean the big surprise tonight was With Amy Klobuchar. There had been some polling recently showing that she was doing all of a sudden a lot better than expected. But you have to remember. She came out of Iowa in fifth place and I think that the big turning point for her in New Hampshire came from a combination of a lot of people that were still undecided and didn't know who they wanted to support maybe some more voters that we're looking at more moderate candidates and she had a really good debate performance here last week. I think that you know a lot of times debates. Don't necessarily change things in a race. But at this in this case it seemed like people started having these internal conversations and dialogues this weekend even up until the final day or two you. So what does this mean for the campaigns of Elizabeth Warren and Joe Biden or they kinda now on life support. Yeah I mean Biden. Biden didn't even stick around in New Hampshire surfer. His election party tonight. He went straight to South Carolina and address his New Hampshire supporters from there so he is really really hoping that he can kind of bolster his his support in his campaign among African American voters in South Carolina and Let's voters in Nevada. OUGHTA but I mean he has now lost and lost badly. I mean he came in fourth place in Iowa and he came in fifth. Place this in New Hampshire. That's not just a loss that's like a trouncing and so I just think that making a pitch especially making a pitch on electability abilities have voters in Nevada and South Carolina is GonNa be really tough when you have the record. That Biden has so far and as far as Warren. I mean this is a really tough state for her hurdle lose I mean she is a Massachusetts senator. So she's from right over the border. She was a well known entity in New Hampshire. It's not like she was starting with low name recognition like her her campaign sent out a memo today about their path forward and talking about some of these more diverse. She's going to be campaigning in Virginia. Pretty soon but this is not good for her and her campaign was counting on some momentum and they just did not get that tonight at all but it was an even tougher night for two who of the candidates who dropped out right. Yes so Andrew Yang and Colorado Senator Michael Bennet both dropped out tonight and I. I think both of them were kind of pinning a lot of their hopes on New Hampshire. I mean Andrew Yang had spent a lot of time campaigning. Here and I mean I had heard from a lot of voters that said that they really liked him and they really liked his message. I was kind of going into election night looking to see if he would get some sort of bump but I just think that people full were so concerned with electability. This year that I think a lot of folks didn't really want to throw their vote to somebody who was unknown and two. They didn't really think could it'd be trump And the same thing with Michael Bennett. I mean he had staked his entire campaign on New Hampshire but he just hadn't really been getting any traction for months. He had been unstuck at somewhere between zero and one percent in the polls campaigning. Like the old New Hampshire way he was doing all these house. Parties that Lauren. Children talked about in Tuesday's episode and he just wasn't getting anywhere. He was gaining no traction so he had the college tonight. Well you know what L.. I think before we go to the break. We're GONNA take a minute to remember our friends. Senator Michael Bennet Andrew Young. Okay sounds good. I know what you're thinking America. How am I still on the stage age with them? If you go to the factory in Michigan it's now wall-to-wall immigrants. It's Walter robot arms and machines. We have to send the the opposite message of this administration as your president. I think I can send a very clear message. Where if you're considering immigration to this country and I'm the president you would realize my son? Thunder daughter can become president of the United States. You know I am the math guy and it is clear tonight from the numbers that we are not going to win this race and so tonight I am announcing I am suspending my campaign for president when there's a group of kids in this country that don't get preschool through. No fault of their own and another group does equal is not equal. And we've got a group at K twelve schools. That are good because families can spend a million bucks and you've got the Detroit. Public schools are as segregated as they were equally. Not Tonight is not good to be aren't but let me say this to New Hampshire. You may see me once again. After the break on today explained Matthew Yglesias makes the case for president. Didn't Bernie sings. Hello very quickly. I would like to tell you about one of my favorite websites. It's called eater whenever I'm going to a new city and I wanna find out what that city's best restaurants might be the weather cheapest restaurants or their best pizza. I just go to eater Google. You know best restaurants Eater Alabama. That's not a city. I know that I know that anyway. Eater also makes a TV show. It's called no passport. Required and the second season is out. Now it's on PBS. The shows hosted by a chef named Marcus Samuelsson. You might know him if you haven't been to a spot in Harlem called the Red Rooster. No passport required celebrates immigrant communities across the United States and they're very important contributions to their cities. Food seems Los Angeles is huge. Armenian community The West African expatriates creates in Houston. We've got italian-american Billy. The Chinese American community in Vegas. We've got all sorts of Portuguese speaking cultures and Boston from from Brazil. Bill to Cape Verde Portugal itself. Check it out right now. No passport required season two on PBS. Weekly at nine eight central on Mondays or stream the entire season now at P.. CBS Dot Org Slash. No has required if you enjoy hearing today explained breakdown the most important Gordon Stories of the day and yet you're looking for a cultural pallet cleanser. CHECK OUT OUR VOX. podcast switched on pop where we break down the most important songs of the week showing you how they're made and why they matter. I'm songwriter charting. And I'm musicologists nate. Sloan switched on pop. We speak with some of the world's most interesting musicians songwriters producers and journalist. I help us better appreciate the songs that surround us in the ways they change our culture. You're gonNA hear from artists like Lizardo. Fini's amber mark in w digs. And if you dig through our archives archives you'll even here Shamas Var doing really bad impersonation of drake. Ouch I thought it was pretty good. Okay together with these guests. We'll help you understand. Important trends like why disco disco is making a comeback. How spotify is changing? The way songs are written and whether the controversial artists post malone sounds more like the singer Stevie Nicks or ability. Go if you love music. You're going to discover something you're opening switched on pop so join US search for switched on pop in your favorite podcast APP and listen to an episode about your favorite artists artists and subscribe for free on apple podcasts. spotify or wherever you're listening to get new music explainers each week Matthew Yglesias the politics team here at Vox wrote up arguments for each of the leading being Democratic presidential candidates in this race. And you wrote about Bernie. What's the argument in favor of Vermont? Senator Bernard Sanders Kita. The argument is his electoral. Electoral performance is a lot better than people realize. He's been a more pragmatic legislator than a lot of people realize and I think in a way he could be a unifying candidate that brings trump's opponents together and wins the election in November. Which fundamentally is what mainstream Democrats want? Okay well let's get into it. I mean let's talk about his legislative history and legislative agenda. I think one of the arguments against Bernie is that he actually hasn't accomplished much in the Senate. Is that a fair argument his legislative. I just think agenda is very expensive what I think is important to understand about sanders. Though is that he's not somebody who has blown up the need it compromises right. He defects sometimes. A bill is going to go through the Senate with eighty votes and he casts a No. He says we should hold out for more when they needed. Every Democrat Gamma crat to vote for the affordable. Care Act when they needed every Democrat to vote for the Dodd. Frank Bill for the Obama Stimulus For anything like that. He is there. This stimulus. Package is is not perfect but it will go a long way in Vermont and throughout this country to rebuild crumbling infrastructure move us to energy independence sustainable energy protect working families hurt by this recession and most importantly create millions of good paying jobs. He understands how the political system works. And when you have to take half a loaf he was known own in the House of Representatives for getting a lot of bipartisan amendments passed Senator John McCain of Arizona and I have tried our best the come forward with an agreement. It's an agreement which I'm sure he is. Not One hundred percent happy about and I can fully assure you I am not one hundred percent happy about. I would have written a very very different. So it's true. He's not the greatest legislative titan in the history of the Senate but he's also not this ignoramus that some of his supporters on twitter. Her sometimes seem like he's been a member of Congress for a long time. He knows how hard it is to get coalitions together for bills and he knows the importance of making compromises to get things things done so I don't think there's any reason to worry that as president he would be unable to deal with the realities of legislating. Who and what do you think as president? He would make his first act his first one hundred days his first year. What's let's Bernie GonNa dive into? I think healthcare. He's very passionate about healthcare. He's passionate about his medicare for all crusade the idea that the United States of America should join every other major. Get your country on earth in guaranteeing healthcare to every man woman and child this is not a radical idea in fact poll after poll shows a majority of the American people support. That idea people want to know. I think it's obvious that we're not gonNA pass a bill. That's expensive is that as expensive as Bernie's Medicare for all. Yeah as as expensive as as his proposal. I think the real view from his team is that you need someone who is committed to fighting against the special interests that block this kind of action. That anything you do right whether it's the modest prescription drug pricing reform. That House Democrats are trying to do whether whether it's the bipartisan reform. On surprise billing that is kicking around the Senate. All of these things get blocked by the exact same nexus of interest groups who lead the opposition to Medicare for all. So you may as well just see what you can get out of an actual legislative process. But I think they think you will get the most by naming the bad guys and and taking them on so Bernie of course wrote the Danville. We've heard it a million times at this point but he isn't the only person supporting the damn bill anymore. So why Bernie the over someone say like Elizabeth. Warren who at least at some point has said that she's on board with a similar kind of plan. So I agree I mean I I actually think in terms of legislative outputs. You're not I'm not GONNA see a huge difference between Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren or even Bernie Sanders and budejovice. Amy Klobuchar or Biden because the way legislation works is it depends on Congress right if you really. Your primary consideration is what bills are gonNA pass like. You should focus on the Senate race in Maine Senate race in Arizona Senate race in Colorado Colorado. That's what's going to determine it not the choice of president but the most far out there Bernie Sanders. Proposals are not going to become law. No matter what happens you're gonNA GONNA get the same kind of incremental change however you want but if you want to sort of unified Democratic Party taking the fight to trump taking the fight to republicans and selling the based on the need for compromise. There's nobody better than sanders to Bernie never sells it that way. Do you think he believes that. Do you think he believes that. Once he gets into office office he will be the People's champion and thus temper his ambitions. I think that Bernie understands that. It is hard to pass bills hills and that there's not going to be like a parting of the clouds and all obstacles vanish. But I think he also rightly thinks that some of the people who preach pragmatism mm-hmm are in fact being influenced by money and campaign contributions and lobbying and their desires and that people look and they say why have Democrats been talking. Talk about lowering prescription drug costs for twenty years right. How is it that that never gets done? And it's not because nobody knows that you may have to trim your sails a little. Our are make deals very popular ideas. Wind up not happening up. Because of the influence of money in politics right and it's not that a sanders presidency. NC eliminates all of those obstacles that means that you will have a president who is making bargains literally because vote counts not because of the impact of of money so if there is a president sanders if he does need to compromise his agenda. What are those compromises actually look like you think I think some form of a public option of opening up of Medicare he actually cosponsored a public option? Bill back in the two thousand sixteen cycle before raising his aspirations. And then things on prescription drug costs. That's that's an issue that he has been a champion of forever and that mainstream Democrats are increasingly comfortable with but they've never quite sealed. The deal on cutting prescription drug costs. I think you've sanders is in the White House. This guy's been fighting Pharma For decades and he is going to tell everyone like we are going to get this done last style and and they really will. It's funny though because what you're talking about like a public option for example is essentially like the compromise position that bided at closure arguing for against Bernie's Medicare for all but this is the perversity of American politics. Right is Barack Obama runs and wins on public option platform. Yeah so you get the with no oh public option you run and win on a Medicare for all platform. You might get a public option. If you're lucky right. The president always gets less than what he ran on right. Because of the dynamics in Congress I wonder you know you talk about Bernie to essentially rallying this coalition of supporters from the left but also the center center. You've got people like James Carville talking to our colleague Sean. Noling last week about how. He's scared to death about sanders ability to beat trump too to unify the left as well as centrists. Tell me about the argument. That Bernie could actually do that. How do you see it happening so look? We can look at People's electoral track track records right. Some politicians do better than average in their home state and some do worse and it is a hundred percent true. The politicians who do better than average are typically Lee moderates Joe Mansion is one of the great over performers in the US Senate but Bernie Sanders is also and overperform. You look at any year that he was on the ballot and there was also presidential election. Nineteen Ninety to nineteen ninety-six. Two thousand. It's happened over and over again and he runs ahead of the Democratic ticket right. It's not like every leftist. Does that That that's untrue at all but Bernie Sanders does. He is a very effective politician. He is an effective campaigner. And you don't he. Does it a few different ways. One is his personal reputation for integrity. The other is this whole weird thing where he's not really a Democrat. It seems to help him get the votes of people who go. For third parties that there was a lot of Perot Sanders Crossover votes. There was a lot of Stein Sanders crossover votes but even Johnson Sanders Crossover. It's the people who are suspicious of party politics and business as usual sanders seems like a free thinking person a person of integrity somebody who they can trust. It's hard hard to scale that up from Vermont to nationwide but it should give people like Carville people who worry about electability some sense of reassurance that like this is a guy who has run and wine and and done very very well in those elections I mean Vermont is obviously not a swing state. But he's doing better than Barack Obama better than Hillary Clinton better than Bill Clinton in his home state and as we move in our heads to the hypothetical of Bernie actually running against president trump. I wonder how does Bernie Fair against someone who wants to paint him and his his friends. AFC as just socialists and scare people into winning votes if it was me if you could go back in time and have Bernie Sanders. There's not call himself a socialist. I would definitely take that people who think that's a handicap. They are correct Socialism is a label at polls very poorly. But he's been calling himself a socialist for a long time. He's been making it work. And the other advantages. Republicans have been calling every Democrat. They run against a socialist for a long time and to an extent. You Know L. Dixon political party to Cry Wolf on this over there. It seems as though far left. Socialist ideology is increasingly becoming mainstream Democratic Party doctrine. This socialism has never worked if they're so interested in it. Why don't they go to Caracas? Or what I wanted to go someplace where they've tried it a vote for any Democrat in twenty eight twenty and a vote for any Democrat. Tomorrow and North Carolina is a vote for the rise of radical socialism and the destruction of the American American dream. Trump got forty six percent of the vote back in two thousand sixteen and it's not just that he lost the popular vote. He was below fifty percent in Florida Arizona Zone and North Carolina. He's below fifty as to the question is not so much. How do you appeal to swing voters who are due? I like trump to a not like trump. But it's how how do you get all of the anti-trump voters together and I think sanders is uniquely. Well positioned to bring those third party voters and to get them to vote Democrat. I think that's the strongest electability argument for him. I went walking that ribbon of highway. I saw me endless skyway. Never forget the Bernie Sanders record the polk album in the eighties Bali. I don't know if Matthew yglesias has recorded any folk albums yet but he hosts the weeds. PODCAST VOX our colleagues here. have written arguments for several of the other leading candidates in this race including Vice President Biden Senator Warren Mayor. PT Can find them at. Vox Dot Com. I'm Shawn Rama's firm. This is the four hundred ninety ninety nine hundred episode of today explained. This show was made for you and me rolled that rambled swallowed by footsteps from the sparkling. Sands off your diamond. Doesn't and all around me. The voice was sounding this land was a U N. Yeah on this.

Bernie Sanders Bernie president Donald Trump New Hampshire United States Senate sanders Matthew Yglesias Vermont Congress Barack Obama Joe Biden Democratic Party Arizona Elizabeth Warren New Hampshire University Medicare Amy Klobuchar Senator Bernard Sanders Kita
Between a Stone and a hard place

Today, Explained

29:20 min | 1 year ago

Between a Stone and a hard place

"Uh-huh it's Today explained Sean Ramos Firm. This is episode five hundred. Thank you for listening for just shy of two years. We've been explaining the most important news stories in the world to you Monday to Friday. But not on the weekends. We've done lots of stories on the environment on tech on popular culture on conflicts abroad and a good many about president. Donald Trump Ukraine explained is still pretty fresh but remember that motivating well just in time for episode five hundred. We got a little throwback from the president this week. He made a big stink about his old pal. Roger Stone the man with the Nixon Tattoo and the stink was so bad. That people are now questioning the integrity of the United States Department of Justice before we get to the stink. Let's talk about stunt and if you've heard five hundred shows the fact that vox is senior political correspondent Andrew. Pocock is here to explain. We'll come as no surprise so back. During the two thousand sixteen campaign Roger Stone who was an outside advisor to trump a friend and advisor to trump on politics made efforts to get in touch with wikileaks to try and get a hold of damaging information about Hillary Clinton. I actually have two indicated with the Sun. I will leave the next documents pertain to the Clinton Foundation so then in two thousand seventeen when congressional investigators started asking around about this stone gave them a false story and tried to encourage another witness to stick to that false story. And and and not to reveal the truth about these outreach efforts we had a very frank exchange I answered all the questions I made the case that the Accusation that I knew about John Podesta's emails hack in advance was false. Eventually he came under scrutiny. In Special Counsel Robert Muller's investigation. He was arrested and indicted in January. Twenty nineteen four obstruction of Congress witness tampering and making false statements. I will lead not guilty to these charges. I will defeat them in. This is politically motivated. Investigation He went on trial last November and he was convicted on all seven counts and now he is ready to be sentenced on February twentieth. So long story short he tried to obstruct the free election. Tried to cover that up and then tried to obstruct an investigation into his obstruction. Yeah the full story of what exactly Roger Stone did in two thousand sixteen is actually still pretty mysterious weather his efforts to get in touch with wikileaks for total failures or whether there was something more to it but the gist is that he tried to cover up. Whatever he did do he got caught and then he got convicted of it and now he is ready to be sentenced. Which brings us to this week. how does this story? Pick back up with his sentencing. So how this works. Is that the probation office. First comes up with technical guidelines for the range of what inappropriate sentence would be what that probation office came up with was a recommended sentence of about seven to nine years in prison so after that the prosecutors then have to submit their own sentencing memo to the judge in this case who will end up making the final call on this and in this case what they did was that they said that a sentence of the sort recommended by the probation office seven to nine years or so would indeed be appropriate given the gravity and seriousness of his crimes. So they didn't come up with that number or make it up out of whole cloth but they said that you know what it fits impounded. President trump take news so in a late night early morning flurry of tweets and re tweets after the sentencing memo was filed. Trump expressed utter outrage. He called this a horrible and very unfair situation. He said cannot allow this miscarriage of justice exclamation point. My thought. The recommendation was ridiculous. I thought the whole prosecution was ridiculous and I look others that haven't been prosecuted or I don't know where it is now but when you see that I thought it was an insult to our country and it shouldn't happen and we'll see what what goes on there but that was a so then on Tuesday morning word leaks out to a Fox News reporter that the Justice Department higher ups in fact agree with trump on this and they are going to override the prosecutor's recommendation for Roger. Stone's sentence so do the prosecutors restructure their sentence. What do they do next in this case they quit? We're following some truly stunning breaking news. Still developing by the minute this hour to federal prosecutors in the Roger Stone criminal case have resigned this afternoon. This follows an astonishing decision by the Justice Department to pull back on. Its recommended sentence of seven to nine years prison time for Roger Stone. There were four prosecutors on the stone team. Two of whom also served on Special Counsel Robert Muller's team previously and all four of them announced on Tuesday that they were going to withdraw from the case. One of them quit the Justice Department entirely while the other three will continue to work in the department on other matters but this was very unusual. Highly Public Apparent Act of protest against political interference from their bosses. What does that mean for the case? Well what happened after they all quit? Is that a new prosecutor put on and a new sentencing memo was filed saying that actually the memo that was just submitted one day earlier does not accurately reflect the Justice Department's position on what would be a reasonable sentence in this matter and that a sentence of incarceration far less than that seven to nine year. One would be reasonable under the circumstances but in the end they defer to judge Amy Berman Jackson who will actually set in stone on. What should actually be done here as was always going to be the case Coca Cola so so at least everyone's going to respect the judge's decision here so separately from all this president trump went. After this judge Amy Berman Jackson on twitter nevermind saying is this. The judge that put Paul Manafort in solitary confinement. Something that not even mobster. Al Capone had to endure and by this Paul Manafort when he was indicted he violated the conditions of his bail by reaching out to a potential witness. So Judge Jackson ordered that he be taken into custody. She did not decide to put him in solitary confinement. That was a decision made by prison officials and his solitary confinement conditions. Were actually pretty swank. They're not as Unpleasant as you might have expected. That's Nice for Paul. Not a great look for the president. It's certainly unusual for the president to be attacking a judge who is handling these sentencing of one of his close associates in a criminal case by. You know the decision on the sentence is going to be made by Judge Jackson in the end. Except of course if President Trump decides to overrule her decision by pardoning Roger Stone or by commuting. His sentence does the president's Temper. Tantrum have any foundation in reality. What's the typical sentence for your average criminal? Who's been convicted of obstruction of justice? Witness tampering terrible tattoos and making. False statements so intuitively. I would say it does come off as a little high but generally people who've looked at this think that the way that the probation office calculated the sentencing guidelines were appropriate stone quote engaged in a multi year scheme involving false statements in sworn testimony the concealment of important documentary evidence further lies in a written submission to Congress and relentless and elaborate campaign to silence that witness Randy Credito. And so you know the government has a case that there was a lot to this. This was not some one off brief thing. A- stones team has also argued that he has no previous trouble with the law that he is in poor health. That Credit Co didn't actually feel that threatened. He claims and so so there arguments for leniency. To has anyone else weighed in on this publicly? Democrats Republicans so Democrats are very concerned about. What's going on and Congressional Democrats especially on the House Judiciary Committee have announced that attorney. General William Bar will testify before their committee later in March about what actually happened here and on other issues. Republicans meanwhile are tending to say. Well this doesn't really look good but in the end it will be up to the judge sow wise at such big deal as unfortunate as the sounds. Just the president potentially abusing the Department of Justice to keep his friends out of big trouble. It also doesn't sound completely foreign thinking back historically in this country. Does this feel different to you? I think what's going on here is part of a broader pattern of we can say curious incidents that have been unfolding in the Justice Department under attorney-general bar in the past few weeks and months that have really started to raise concerns that the Justice Department is being very politicized and turned to serve the interests of Donald trump rather than the impartial administration of Justice. More Andrew in a minute on today explained all of us here today explain. Tried to make a funny new show whenever possible and appropriate because the news can be super stressful and anxiety inducing and depressing and hard. And if you ever feel like life is getting a little too anxiety inducing and and hard. The people better help are standing by to offer hand. They got professionals who specialize in depression and anxiety. The counselors also ready to discuss grief and trauma and anger relationships. Whatever it is you WanNa talk about people at Better Help. Have a counselor ready for you. You can connect privately with better help counselor through texts through phone calls video calls and get help on your own time at your own pace at a rate that you can actually afford if you sign up right now. You get ten percent off your first month of better help. With the code explained visit better health dot com slash explained. Today the find out more. That is better. Help Dot com slash explained. Hello very quickly. I would like to tell you about one of my favorite website. It's called eater whenever I'm going to a new city and I wanna find out what that city's best restaurants might be or their cheapest restaurants or their best pizza eater. Google like you know best restaurants Eater Alabama. That's not a city. I know that I know that anyway. Eater also makes a TV show. It's called no passport. Required and the second season is out. Now it's on PBS. The shows hosted by a chef named Marcus Samuelsson. You might know him if you've ever been to a spot in Harlem called the Red Rooster. No passport required celebrates immigrant communities across the United States and they're very important contributions to their cities. Food seems Los Angeles is huge. Armenian community The West African expatriates in Houston. We'VE GOT ITALIAN AMERICANS IN BILLY The Chinese American community in Vegas. We've got all sorts of portuguese-speaking cultures and Boston from from Brazil. Cape Verde Portugal itself. Check it out right now. No passport required season two on PBS. Weekly at nine eight central on Mondays or stream the entire season now. Pbs DOT ORG slash. No has required. Tell me a little bit more about how. The president of the United States is turning the United States Department of Justice into his own personal law firm so amidst all the controversy about the stone sentencing there was a report from NBC News headlined Bar Meaning Attorney General. Embar takes control of legal matters of interest to trump including stone sentencing and the reporters here. Carol-lee Kendall Alien Peter Alexander. Make the case that this is really something broader. That is going on that. From what they've heard from their sources does a concerted effort from bar to centralise decision-making and authority over political cases in advance of the twenty twenty elections. How exactly is he doing that? So there are a couple of big examples that especially after this Roger Stone. Gasco definitely look a whole lot. More like a pattern and one of them involves another close trump ally who is due to be sentenced for charges stemming from the Mueller Investigation namely Michael Flynn the former national security adviser. I have called on Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race because she she put our nation security at extremely high risk with their careless use of a private e mail server. I remember him up locker up. Flynn pleaded guilty back. In December twenty seventeen to lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador and he agreed to cooperate. With Muller's team no handcuffs for Michael Flynn. He surrendered and walked into the federal courthouse in Washington to plead guilty to a single charge lying to the FBI but along the way things went awry. He was actually scheduled to be sentenced initially back. In December twenty eight prosecutors were totally cool with his cooperation. Then prosecutors wrote that a sentence that does not impose. A term of incarceration would be appropriate. Then things took a turn at the sentencing. Hearing itself said Judge Emmet Sullivan. He shocked the courtroom when he opened this hearing by saying he could not hide his disdain. For What Flynn had done. He even went so far as prosecutors why they weren't charging. Flynn with treason en route. That's a crime. Punishable by death does later apologized for that particular question but he did give. Flynn last minute out. He gave him the opportunity to delay his sentencing to get credit for cooperation with the government. Some of which wasn't yet complete. Flynn jumped at the chance and asked for the sentencing to be delayed but then instead of actually doing that further cooperation Flynn decided to dump his lawyers. He hired a hard charging conservative. Sydney Powell who has been biscuit laying the groundwork to argue that when was set up and eventually he did argue that he wanted to withdraw his guilty plea that he wasn't even really guilty that the government set him up that I the fix was in. It just sounds like the kinds of actions. You would only take if you knew you had sort of support from the higher ups you know. It certainly was a bold strategy but we didn't see much blatant interference from the Justice Department in a way that was designed to help. Flynn until recently so a very similar thing happen to Flynn. That happened to Roger Stone. Prosecutors this January were getting ready for Flynn's new attempt at sentencing and they decided to let the judge know that they had changed their position in light of Flynn's behavior over the past year they said given the serious nature of the defendants offense his apparent failure to accept responsibility his failure to complete cooperation and the need to promote respect for the law and adequately deter criminal conduct. They wrote that they recommend a sentence of zero to six months of incarceration for Flynn. But then mysteriously about three weeks later as both the prosecutors and the defense continued to send filings back and forth in this case the government. Curiously shifted its position. Now Prosecutors wrote on January twenty ninth all of a sudden. They agreed with the defended that a sentence of probation is a reasonable sentence and this was a shift. They said that they recommended. Flynn be incarcerated and now they are saying that actually probation is reasonable and according to NBC. This change came about because senior officials at the Justice Department intervened. So exactly the same thing that's happening with Roger Stone Right now. Yes in a less dramatic way that didn't lead to a bunch of prosecutors quitting but it looks like these are closely related incidents and the story gets more interesting as we learn what happened to the person who was in charge of overseeing flint sentencing the US attorney for Washington DC. Jesse LOU IS JESSE. A Dude lady somewhere in between lady what happened to her so the US attorney for the District of Columbia is a pretty important job. It overseas a lot of these highly charged political cases involving government officials and the federal government. And Lou she is clearly a conservative but she had a decent reputation for independence in the post. She certainly didn't seem to be going easy on any of the trump associates who were prosecuted in her district. She took over overseeing the Roger Stone trials not as a direct prosecutor. But you know as the boss eventually of those prosecutors and she had been in this job for a couple of years at this point and early this January president trump nominated her to fill a post at the Treasury Department and at first this seemed to be ordinary enough like people move to different posts in the administration. That is normal but then after this dust up over Michael Flynn sentencing. Lou was unexpectedly removed from her job before being confirmed to her new Treasury Department position and who she was replaced with was even more interesting Timothy Shea. Who was a counselor to bill bar at the Justice Department and one of bars closest advisers according to the associated? Press so so the final capper on what happened with Jesse. Lou Is that it was reported by axios on Tuesday evening that in fact trump was going to withdraw her nomination to that Treasury Department Post and then on Wednesday night. Jessie Liu officially submitted her resignation from the federal government. Now that that confirmation is no longer going to come it's not clear whether this was an effort to retaliate against the person who oversaw Roger Stone's prosecution whether it was simply an effort to avoid her having to testify to a Senate committee Which was scheduled to happen this week but it certainly makes her ahead of schedule. Replacement look even more questionable so this all sounds dodgy and like William bars making sure the Department of Justice Aligns with President. Trump's interest surf perhaps even protects him but but there been anything more directly aligned with the president's reelection. Yes bar has not stopped there. He has issued new rules in the Justice Department for any new investigation to be opened about a presidential candidate a- presidential campaign presidential campaign staffers or even potentially illegal foreign contributions to presidential campaigns. Any of those investigations would be bill bars personal approval to be open and to know the back story of that you know both. Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were plagued by investigations in the two thousand sixteen campaign. And what Bill Bar seems to be doing is ensuring that in two thousand twenty there will be no surprises from pesky independent minded investigators who are turning rocks over looking into things if it touches presidential campaign bill bar is going to have to sign off on it. Okay so just to recap. This isn't just about getting stone. A lighter sentence it's also about getting. Flynn a lighter sentence. It's also about punishing people who administer justice to friends of the president and it's also potentially about preventing investigations into a president. Who famously has a proclivity? For CASUAL TREASON. How bad is this for the Justice Department? How does this compare to Kennedy appointing? His brother is a g or Nixon and the Saturday night massacre where he illegally got a special prosecutor fired. I think since Kennedy and starting especially after Richard Nixon and Watergate norms about the independence of the Justice Department and how it should make decisions on political prosecutions free of political. Interference started to become strong. And we're seeing those norms deteriorate. That said I do. There are some other examples that go against the narrative of bar and trump completely perverting justice department to serve their ends for one. We should remember that Rudy. Giuliani's to close allies left. Parnis Eager Fruman got arrested last October indicted by prosecutors from the southern district of New York. Us Attorney's office and There is an investigation. Going on. Imperilling Giuliani as well. Reportedly you know one would think that Justice Department solely looking. After trump's whims would not be investigating his lawyer for various crimes but having said that There has been other reporting that Justice Department leaders in Washington later ended up getting involved in that New York investigation into Giuliani and the current state of it remains unclear. We just don't know what's going on so the question is in all of these. Is the Justice Department now? Going to act like president trump's political attack machine or is it going to respect the judgment of legal experts and prosecutors and way cases carefully before bringing charges and the signs lately have not been encouraging and the recourse here basically non-existence I mean a congressional hearing isn't going to change anything right probably not I mean it would certainly be good to have bar answer questions under oath about a lot of the stuff and about how the Justice Department is even functioning these days. But you know it's a bit of a red herring if the question is whether bill bar is doing this at trump's behest explicitly or whether he's just doing it because oh he just so happens to have the same opinions as trump on all these issues or he's preemptively trying to anticipate what trump would want. The point is that they have a mind meld and that bar is doing what trump wants to do. Trump even sent a tweet saying congratulations to Attorney General Bill Bar for taking charge of a case. That's Roger Stone case. That was totally out of control and perhaps should not have even been brought now. After that on Thursday Attorney General Bar gave an interview in which he criticized trump. A bit for sending those tweets. He said he thinks it's for trump to stop tweeting about Justice Department criminal cases and that the tweets make it impossible for me to do my job. You think they'll be the game changer. Here will will. President trump finally bought out of matters involving the Justice Department. I think it's usually a bad bet to bet that Trump will change or improve his behavior on stuff like this. But if you look at what? Barr says he seems to be objecting more to the public nature of trump's comments than to their actual substance and look at what happened here bar did trump wanted. And he got congratulations in a tweet. You know that's just how our government works now. We'll cut the cut the music team. That's just how the government works now. I mean yes pro cups clearly right and that's distressing and will surely revisit this in the coming weeks and months but we can't end episode five hundred like that can we. Can we know we can't I think we should. I go out with a love song. No when we come out well you know we're GONNA BE WE'RE GONNA be the show that mixture afternoon when you go home. Yeah you know you'RE GONNA BE YOU'RE GONNA be glad you don't sound like goon when you're BAFFONI GONNA BE GONNA be extreme maneuvers to you when we sparse. Well we know it be. We're GONNA be in the show to new bank fighting chores. Make five hundred two zero rigid. No one about to be published.

President Trump Justice Department president Roger Stone Michael Flynn Donald Trump Ukraine United States Department of Ju prosecutor Department of Justice Robert Muller Hillary Clinton Roger Stone Trump attorney witness tampering Special Counsel Andrew General Bar
Racism, Atlanta, and the race for a narrative

The Kicker

33:01 min | Last month

Racism, Atlanta, and the race for a narrative

"I welcome to the kicker on kyle pope editor and publisher of the columbia journalism review this week coverage of the shootings in atlanta. So we all woke up earlier this week to this horrific news the eight people have been killed in atlanta. The shooter has been apprehended and has been talking to police but the coverage has been confused and unfocused and has tended to focus more on the shooter than on the victims of this crime. There's a lot we don't know there's a lot we don't know about the shooter is. There's so much we don't know about the women who were victims of this crime. And it comes in the context of a of a surge in attacks on asian americans across the country which has received some but is relevant to the coverage of this case to untangle all of this and tell people who are covering this of get a sense of how we can do better going forward in the days and weeks and months ahead. I'm thrilled to be joined by kent ono. Who's a professor in. The department of communication at the university of utah is the author of several books including the co author of a book called asian americans and the media and diana lou who is a phd in biology from mit and a writer on science and on asian american cultural issues. I'm thrilled to have them both. Welcome kim diana thank you thank. You can't let me start with you. You read the coverage of these shootings in atlanta what you make so far of of the coverage and especially of how the fact that the vast majority of the victims were of asian descent has been portrayed. I've read a lot. But i think that a lot of it. So far has not focused on the women's lives and their children in their families are their friends. And you know it's interesting you point that out because that's reported the tropes of the early coverage of gun violence usually right. Is you get the right very very quickly. You get days often superficial profiles but quickly early profiles of victims. What do you think accounts for the fact that we haven't seen that yet in this case yes the coverage has really focused much more on the perpetrator shooter. The alleged murderer and very little attention has focused on the victims. So far in part. I think that is a result of access to the shooter which often in cases like this police do not have that access. So they have that access now and they're taking advantage of it because they can question him and he's a voluntary commentator on his own crime but additionally there seems to be a lot of Ambivalence about covering the victims and their lives and the people they now and the people most negatively affected by this entire thing besides that people who died and i think it is because people are not used to talking to asian americans in the media That media writers sometimes are concerned because they fear that they won't have knowledge of the language that the asian people speak and they're ill-equipped because they don't have translators interpreters who can help mediate conversations so rather than like do the work to find people who can do that do that for them. Instead they focus their attention on what is most easily accessible to them which in which is what. Well i think the shooter in police. Like i was actually a court reporter so i know how how much the police want to be talking to the media and controlling the narrative. So police are ready. They're ready to provide testimony about what happened regardless of how much information they actually have. So it's always the hard work of the reporter to find sources that are not as easily accessible as the police. But in this case you know we see most media going to talking heads and to a police at not going to people on the ground back in this case there was. I thought it was kind of extraordinary thing because Very quickly after the shooting i think the Early the next day the police came out and said oh no no. This has nothing to do with race whatsoever. It had nothing to do with the fact that the victims were of asian descent and had nothing to do. I think they even said like he hadn't had a good day. Is the language that they use which was amazingly inappropriate. I thought and then and then was immediately went to this sort of sex addiction idea and i thought that storyline was very quickly picked up but i thought how could you know that in in the case of just a few hours after apprehending. This guy yeah. I think this was very unusual. Case where the shooter was willing to talk to the sheriff and to reveal information that police in sheriff Officers often don't have and so that end up being a bigger part of the story and of information that was available that they could provide payne asli from my perspective as a scholar. What it does is changes the levels of empathy and the direction of empathy so in other words because we know more about him the police. The sheriff seemed very interested in providing a story that helps explain why he did these things right rather than the trauma on the family which is as you said what we ordinarily would hear more about diana. This brings me back so vividly to the piece that you did A couple of years ago revisiting. A new york times story from twenty eighteen. Which was the times piece was about The death of a chinese woman queens in your in your piece went back and sort of deconstructed The times piece Looking at and it gets to some of these issues about the police portrayal of what happened versus how it was portrayed in the media and then what you later discovered about the back story of the ps could you just just for a minute walk us through though the time story and your story and how you think that some of the same lessons apply to what we're seeing now lanta shirt things so yang song. She was a sex worker in queens. Who She fell from her connie after a police raid. And so the new york times was covering that and it was a very Sexualize portrayal the focused on exotic sizing her ends queens in general And focusing more on like her psychological state before the before her death which kind of insinuates that you know like it was a suicide or was responsible for it. It didn't focus on the months of police harassment that she had experienced after she was raped by somebody who said that he was a police officer. We don't know whether that's true or not on. And she tried to report it. And instead of seeking justice. Nypd vice tried to get her to be a mole and like snitch on other sex workers to try to get them deported so after her death there was a very strong organizing effort to like seek justice for her in queens from like the entire chinese american community by the like assemblyman representing matt community and by a bunch of reporters melissa grant and emma whitford had done a really great job of doing investigative reporting at the local level. You know for queens and promoting sex work decriminalize decriminalization But that kind of was not not really mentioned in the new york times article which was much more splashy and high profile In terms. Of how i think the same elements of lake racialized engendered oppression are affecting the case today. I thought we should think about it in two ways like what has been reported and what hasn't been reported by like institutional media atlanta has Some publications like the washington. Post the new york times bay. The new york times said light. There were like alleged suspicions of racism. You know but most of the publications didn't really mention that at all. They highlighted addiction and the oneidas had beds a but on social media for example there's been actually reports about the context of the shooting as well as the police response right so E- alex jong who writes for vulture. He said according to workers at gold spa The gunman screamed that he would kill all the asians and he links a korean language report. So if seems like the people who were affected by what happens who were there. The are willing to talk to reporters but for whatever reason you know. Maybe it was a language. Barrier or whatever but institutional media in interview them journalists kendra pure lewis also noted that like. She's getting more information from like non traditional media than from like institutional outlets and i think it speaks to the lack of you know like journalists of color because there was one article that i saw which was kimmy yams article on. Nbc news and she actually goes into the racism and six sexism and like the analysis of what is going on with these asian women being targeted. And what the link is to like sex addiction anyway And as to that the three assumptions that the police report and the media coverage has focused on and the first one is like just kind of say. Oh you know. This is an asian massage parlor and this guy had a sex addiction and that is somehow used to justify what he was thinking. Why would you essential is all asian massage parlors as like selling sex or you know. Some some of the articles even noted like maybe they're trafficking women lake. All one report said the didn't have any criminal records. None of the three spas had any criminal records or anything. And so i think that like you know if it was like a swedish massage parlour like this would not have been the logical leap. The police in the media directly jump to Even the reports. That are coming out. Like i think i saw a couple today. That are more censoring victims. They're still trying to do a positive By disassociating them from sex work. You know like One report said that one of the victims was very invested in becoming an american. You know so like. She's she's a moral person. She wasn't a sex worker. And that's why she's deserving of our sympathy and. I think that that speaks to what we saw with jang song. You know like kind of blaming sex workers for their own deaths or saying like there's some somehow responsible for a killers motives. The response to that is well. If that's true then we have to police and regulate sex workers more but that's not necessarily gonna be helpful because again with what happened to jang song like there was like police brutality and heraldic months of harassment that led to the deaths and possibly more directly. We don't know and in a lot of murders of especially of women of color. Sex workers transects workers their murders. Just don't go reported because their deaths are labeled as n. h. i. which means no human involved you know so lake more policing isn't going to help that you know The second thing is like he had sex addiction okay. Well the implication of that is that you know the killer. He had a mental illness. He had a disease. He's not responsible for murdering these eight people. Are you ready to have refrained framed as him sinning these stories about him being a devout churchgoer and the sex addiction was a sin and that he was sort of like trying to atone for his. Oh my god. That's even worse. Yeah i mean that. That's like the flip side of the racism Like 'cause you have this Racist narrative that supposes asian women's guilt via their sexuality and then the flip side of that is like white male innocence. You know like he was devout christian. It assumes like whiteness and why maleness and may american institution as a pure and innocent institution and it's polluted by you. Know the moral disease of hyper sexuality that asians bring you know what was number three. Oh well you know the the second excuse of having a bad day like well. That's a direct contradiction to addiction like if he was having a bad day and making a cranky choice. Like that's his choice. You know so. Is he in control of his actions or not and also like if a cop thinks that it's okay for somebody to kill eight people on a bad day like again which with the n. h. i. framework like they're saying that these people these vulnerable people don't deserve to be recognized as human Diana mix she. She brings an important point about the history of all this. I mean there's the short-term history which is this attack happens in a year in which we've seen this surge of attacks against asian-americans across the country partly fuelled by Donald trump's language around the coronavirus. So the in the coverage of the atlanta shooting that you see. How much is that taking into account but then talk a little bit about the The more sweeping history of of how violence is is covered him in in the president when it would targets civic community. It's interesting to me. How the way that trump using kong flu wuhan virus a Always attempting to shift the blame of the lack of control of the spread of the virus to china into suggests that the disease originated in china as if humans had an intentional role in producing it and therefore because they produced it didn't control it then our own lack of control is therefore justified. This rhetorical move to deflect attention away from the leadership of the united states inability to do what it should do to help the health of Us americans by shifting attention to china as if china was responsible for that lack of effort. There's a parallel between hip shifting. The blame from himself and his responsibility to that of The parlors and the fact that there're there as temptations and because he has a sex addiction which is itself a blaming component shifting the responsibility from himself to his psyche and then shifting the blame from himself to the parlors which affect his psyche and he has no control over. Those are two types of white male efforts to deflect attention away from their responsibility. So i think there's a connection there. I also think you know that in shifting link to china it's always taking people's attention to china and china's role in china's involvement in where it came from an origin stories so that it's hard for readers. It's hard for audiences. it's hard for listeners. To be able to understand the disease as something that is unknown in origin biological in its manifestation out a phenomenon of chance and phenomenon of Randomness of of life. That story has been told no one has said to my knowledge in the media that the origination of disease is a random event in the world biological origin. Have you heard that. Yeah not not so much. Also you know it's also related to our own Consumption habits and whatever. I think there is increasing evidence that you know disease like this overcome more common under under a warmer earth which sort of comes back to us in terms of our responsibility right. I like that story better. I i empathize with humanity. I empathize with humans. Need to try to come up with rational explanations for unpredictable and unexplainable phenomena right. But i'm not sure that the assertion without evidence that climate change is the producer or the the causal factor that produces this or other viruses is to my mind anymore sufficient. I'm than any other explanation without evidence. Yeah so. I is with the the desire to do that. Because it calls attention to our responsibility to hot climate into our need to come up with solutions for this human created problem but where i hesitate is in just jumping from one relatively easy solution to explain the emergence of a virus to another yet. I hear you so this is for both of you. I mean so you know. I think what one of the things we've seen over these last couple of days in terms of covering the shooting is an inability on the part of a lot of the press to To look at this kind of multi faceted systemic store. There's been this sort of. There's been this sort of Race to plus find de narrative. Okay the guy's a sex addict That's done we understand. Let's go or he was racist and targeted asian women. Let's listen let's leave it at that and in as it always strikes me. These is much more complicated. Much more complex than all of these factors. Come into play at the same time. I guess one. Do you agree with that. As a flaw in the coverage but also if we buy the idea that the coverage is not has not been effective. What advice do we have for. Editors and Let's restart yours the way you should be thinking about this. Yeah i agree with all of that kyle. I don't. I don't know. I mean i don't know what the answer is. But maybe a star would be to have more Journalists of color in the room you know writing these reports because a lot of the A lot of the work in bringing forward these different narratives and different perspectives is from you know people of color whether they're journalists are not I think that in general and this isn't just for journalism but it's for the way we think about things like as a society. I feel like we try to come up with the easiest solution so we don't have to worry about a problem you know. We just want the quick fix in medicine. In you know the way we have like apps for everything. And i think that there's that and there's kind of just like not really any historical memory right like people now. They'll they'll talk about full metal jacket but the lake the racism against asian women. That's less one of the reasons that is behind this shooting. It's been around since You know before the chinese exclusion act and so has the Racial is ation of asians as carrying diseases. So it's like this goes so far back and it's so so beyond the scope of i think our understanding as a society that we just. We need more time to reflect in contextualising I would hope that there are journalists leading the way a bite you know. It's it's hard. It's hard for everyone when they're just trying to escape by you know like they're not being funded like they're just so many different problems coming together and it's not just like the asian racism. It's the fact that sex workers are oppressed in unique ways. It's misogyny let's just a lot of things ken. What is your thoughts for how people can rethink the coverage or should we rethink uncovered right now. First of all. I want to just say how. Brilliant diana's comments have been Wanting diana said that i think is absolutely critical is context and you see this in reportage about horrific stories. They begin with very limited frames. Frayn's that they have been used to. Using to cover stories we call his framing theory to explain how journalists tend to draw on past ways that similar narratives have been described but as moves on things do become more complex but to my mind historically they. They never really reach very far in terms of context. In that's where. Journalism in reported in general can be improved so in the case of violence against asian american women. Asian women rehearsing the very long history. That diana just mentioned about women's vandalisation their construction as dragon. Ladies who threaten men sexually their construction as temptresses who have a lure and who can create unwanted sexual desires in men in these heterosexual on narratives prostitutes As if all women are prostitutes and as if prostitution prostitutes are bad lotus blossoms. This idea that asian asian american women are somehow automatically sexualize in ways. That other women or men are not madame. Butterfly's that they are that. Asian and asian. American women are willing to do anything For their heterosexual men including self sacrifice. This long history is one context which is only in part ever mentioned when thinking about the representations of asian and asian american women and why these ideas about asian and asian american women circulate. Globally another context though has to do with racism and it pertains directly with this atlanta horror. That is people are wondering whether this is a hey kreiner crime or not. And they're having a very difficult articulating. Why this murder. These murders are a racial act and racist act. I'm pleased to hear that people are calling it racist but i'm sad that in calling it racist that's usually where it ends. There is very little explanation as to why it's racist. It's racist is because these women who died are silenced by media. And i think right now we are in the process of seeing silencing of them in that their voices their community and their families and friends Voices are not being Put out they're dehumanized. Dehumanisation is a critical component of racism and violence resulting from racism. They're constructed as if their lives. Don't matter by four grounding the alleged perpetrators life instead of there's in essence they are experiencing a secondary murder by the media because they are being eliminated by not being discussed and not being described at not being humanize so they are constructed as undeserving with which is a critical component of racism. And because there because the media have made two errors one assuming that these parlors are necessarily therefore sex work without any evidence to that if they are associated with sex work then they must be dismissed and they may be blamed therefore asian and asian. American women are being constructed as by default implicitly. Illicit as if asian asian american are participating in an illegal and therefore wrong Set of practices that can result justifiably in violence. They are constructed as unimportant unimportant blameworthy and for the asian american community the narrative in the media construction around. This is re traumatizing. And in this sense this comports well with what we know of racism candidate. Thank you so much thanks. It was it was a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much kyle. I appreciate to read. Cgiar's ongoing coverage of coverage of the atlanta shootings at sierra or on our daily email. The media today and you can follow us on facebook and twitter. Thanks for listening and shannon.

atlanta the new york times kyle pope kent ono diana lou kim diana china payne asli melissa grant emma whitford alex jong gold spa columbia journalism review kendra pure lewis kimmy yams department of communication jang song university of utah diana mit
Love Me Tinder

Today, Explained

25:59 min | 1 year ago

Love Me Tinder

"Yeah I don't there's anyone on planet earth who thinks about dating apps more than my friend Andrea Silenzi for proof. You can check out her instagram. It's filled with screen shots from different APPS. If you open up my phone I have over ten dating apps on here because I kind of believe the hype. Sometimes they just get on the right APP. Then everything's GonNa be okay so I have the League. I have hinge I fumble. I have tender Araya. I Have J. Swipe coffee meets bagel match field lex. Okay cupid her chorus. Meet me scruff. I'm on everything I can get onto Andrea used to host a great dating. Podcast called Y. O. Y. And a dating story for you So I moved to La a year ago and in the past year. I've gone on a lot of first dates. One of them was with this guy who I met on the dating APP. It's the dating APP for quote unquote celebrities but also creative. It's really Muslim. Dj's from Australia and Andrei models but this guy's stood out to me first of all. He works in television which I thought was so cool. An industry that I felt like we'd have a lot to talk about. And then also he just had this great old fashioned handsomeness. It's kind of hard to describe but just seem very put together I. Google stalked him a lot just to make sure he would be a good guy and everything was pointing to yes. I knew that we have mutual friends that he probably didn't realize we had I knew about how he takes. A boxing class and I knew all these tiny details from his life down to what is niece looks like whether or not he likes dogs. That made me feel incredibly safe on the state with this person. So we met at Funky Retro Seventies Bar called Good Times at Davy Wayne. It's the kind of place where you there's a secret entrance you walk in through a refrigerator door and then when you get kind of like a seventies rec room basement. It's a bar full of couches your next to lamps their records on the wall and old stone fireplace. It feels like you're in the Baseman at that Seventies. Show just like really fun. Funky by and Are you getting drinks food? What you're not supposed to food on a first date. What is that question so just drinks yet just to drink and our conversation was going great. He had a lot of confidence and energy but he kept getting up to leave for the bathroom. No shame right. He probably has CROHN's disease. You don't tell someone about Crohn's disease until the third day you know so everything's going great. The date ended and then he asked if I'd walk into his office and he said he needs to get something from his office so I was like sure I'll walk you there so we walk over to his office. He kind of leans me against the gate by the entrance and gives me this long sexy kiss and I'm excited. I can see a future this person so he he goes inside his office and he comes back with this plastic bag. And I'm like what's in the bag and He pulls it out. It's a bottle of very cheap whiskey and it's half empty and that was the first moment. I realized that he might have already been drunk before our date. Oh and then he says I just WanNa be really direct with you Andrea. I really like you. I think the state's going awesome. Just WanNa cut to the chase. I'd like to have you come back to my apartment. And well. He asked to do Release Specific Sexual Act and I said no I was scandalized to be clear and he proceeded to walk me to my car and the whole way that was all he would talk about and couldn't hear me say no to him. That should have been the last time he asked me to do that. You know we're closer completely on rocking sunset boulevard. And I just can't believe I have to keep saying no to this that he can't register my words and you know you think in this current climate. Hashtag me to that. A woman say no. I don't WanNa do that with you. He would be able to hear me knowing that we had mutual friends that we work in the same industry and there was feeling on my drive home after. I said goodbye to him that I just felt. Why am I still dating? It's just such reality distorting that you also could be with someone. We felt safe and then suddenly feel so much pressure so unsafe and just kind of like rushing to your car. A lot of people who use dating apps have experienced like Andreas. But it's impossible to know how many people are having these experiences or worse. Elizabeth Patani recently tried to find out for sixteen months. She and her colleagues at Columbia Journalism. Investigations attempted to gather data about sexual violence on dating APPs as a heads up. What she found was disturbing. We found one hundred fifty seven cases in which sexual assault or rape occurred often online dating APP and we found that by pulling news clips and then cooperating them with police reports or lawsuits and court documents. We also did an exploratory survey of about twelve hundred women who've used an online dating APP in the past fifteen years and found that out of these twelve hundred women about a third so thirty percent said they were sexually assaulted off of an online dating APP. Which is quite a significant number. We also saw some instances in which there were repeat offenders. So people who were convicted rapists sometimes multiple times convicted rapists using the APPS again to re-offend had anyone ever done an investigation like yours into these APPs. No not today. There was a lot of individual news reports about specific cases. But there hadn't yet been a overarching look into the industry as a whole and from there we noticed that the most frequent APPs were all owned by this one company called match group which is a company based in Dallas with one point seven billion dollars in revenue and they own forty five dating platforms including the most popular dating apps like tinder hinge. Okay cupid and plenty of fish and they were probably the most occurring APPs because they're the most popular sites but it led us to question what is match group safety measures. What are their practices? And what are their promises? Did you suny effort to protect users? We saw some interesting agreements including one in two thousand twelve that was signed with then Attorney General California Kamala Harris Online. Dating websites have agreed to screen for sex offenders. Now this comes after a southern California woman was assaulted on a date. Match DOT COM harmony and spark networks will check subscribers against sex offender registries and also provide a way for users to report abuses. And it was basically in agreement on best industry practices and match group signed as well as the harmony and sparks network which owns like Christian Mongolian J. D. and they agreed that screening against the sex offender registry was a best industry practice for their paid products now as match dot com became the publicly traded match group and acquired such APPs as tinder hinge and. Okay cupid they didn't extend this practice to their free products or even to users who are paying for premium features within their free products. So you're seeing the match group which owns tender and hinge match DOT COM. Okay cupid has the ability to screen against sex offenders. But they're only doing it for some of their paid services not even all of them correct. Their promise was originally for paid products. But they didn't extend it to their free ones as they grew larger and larger over time. And you contacted them in your investigation. How did they respond to what you found? Dozens upon dozens of cases of sexual assaulter even rape basically in their statement. They said they don't tolerate sex offenders on their sites but they also said that on their free products like tender. Plenty efficient okay. Cupid they're not able to obtain sufficient and reliable information to make meaningful background checks possible so that's their words another thing. We commonly heard from the company is that it gives a false sense of security. So they're worry or argument is if we tell users were background. Checking other users than people won't take proactive measures themselves isn't it like in match. Dotcom 's interest to keep its user safe. I think financially it can cost money to do background checks depending on what type or what level but I think if there's enough user awareness on safety measures I would think. There is an incentive to keep us safe in order to grow their base. I guess gaming this out. What would a system that protected users from say convicted rapists or other kinds of sex criminals? Look like it depends. I think that companies like this have said that sex offenders and even felons aren't allowed on their APPs in their terms of service so if they're going to uphold users to that there could be a screening and check to make sure that that's true and I think an APP that is taking user. Safety seriously is one in which they are very proactively following up about users reports of rape and also proactively screening against the sex offender registry or doing background checks. If that's what they're gonNA say users aren't allowed to do or be on in their terms of service. I mean I guess the thing is that it's totally working without users having protections like these right. I mean how many people are using these APPs right now doing now. Yeah exactly. There's millions of people using these APSO. I kind of depends on what category you're GONNA use to measure so there's paid subscriptions monthly users active users. But I'd say roughly tenders reported that they have an audience reach of about seven million users. Which is the most popular online dating APP in the US and then Bumble is second ranked at around five million users okay so millions and millions of people are using these APPs potentially every day without these kinds of protections in place. Is there any chance anyone's going to do anything about it? If that many people don't seem to really care we'll see there's a house subcommittee now investigating match group Fumble Grinder and Meet Group particularly about underage users and sex offenders so maybe there'll be an incentive to change things we're not quite sure so it's essentially on users to protect themselves exactly. I'd really say that it's the thesis of what we came to find as the burden and responsibility Israeli on the user ooh Elizabeth PA- channing. She's with Columbia. Journalism Investigations Study was published in conjunction with PROPUBLICA. You can find it over at PROPUBLICA DOT Org. It's titled Tinder. Let's known sex offenders. Use the APP. It's not the only one so it's on you to keep yourself safe. After the break Andrea Silenzi returns with her online dating safety tips. Sean Romney's firm and this is today explained If you enjoy hearing today explain breakdown. The most important stories of the day and yet. You're looking for Cultural Pallet. Cleanser Checkout Vox. Podcast switched on pop where we break down the most important songs of the week showing you how they're made and why they matter. I'm Songwriter Charlie. Harding and I'm musicologist. Nate Sloan switched on pop. We speak with some of the world's most interesting musicians songwriters producers and journalists to help us better appreciate the songs that surround us in the ways that they change our culture. You're going to hear from artists like Liz. Athena's amber mark in w digs. And if you dig through our archives you'll even here shamas farm doing a really bad impersonation of drake out. I thought it was pretty good. Okay together with these. Guess we'll help you understand. Important trends like why disco is making a comeback. How spotify is changing the way songs written and whether the controversial artists post malone sounds more like the singer Stevie Nicks or ability? If you love music you're going to discover something you're opening in switched on pop so join US search for switched on pop in your favorite podcast APP and listen to about your favorite artists and subscribe for free on Apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you're listening to get new music explainers each week Hello very quickly. I would like to tell you about one of my favorite website. It's called eater whenever I'm going to a new city and I wanna find out what that city's best restaurants might be or their cheapest restaurants or their best pizza. Just go to eater. I Google like you know best restaurants Eater Alabama. That's not a city. I know that I know that anyway. Eater also makes a TV show. It's called no passport. Required and the second season is out. Now it's on PBS. The shows hosted by a chef named Marcus Samuelsson. You might know him if you haven't been to a spot in Harlem called the Red Rooster. No passport required celebrates immigrant communities across the United States and they're very important contributions to their cities. Food seems Los Angeles is huge. Armenian community The West African expatriates in Houston. We'VE GOT ITALIAN AMERICANS IN BILLY The Chinese American community in Vegas. We've got all sorts of portuguese-speaking cultures and Boston from from Brazil. Cape Verde Portugal itself. Check it out right now. No passport required season. Two is on. Pbs Weekly at nine. Eight central on Mondays or stream the entire season now. Pbs DOT ORG slash. No has required. No a lot of my friends developed a new policy which is not to give your matches your real phone number until after the date and this is because if you give someone your real phone number it means that they can continue to message you after the date ends if it turns out to be a bad date so if someone reacts badly do you saying hey you mind if we keep messaging within the APP by like to wait to give out my phone number if he has a bad reaction to that. That's not something you WanNa go on that date within the first place. Good to know another thing I do is I always ask for the last name I wanna Google you and see. If you're a real person I have a friend who recently asper last name and he said. Oh Hey if something comes up that makes you think I murdered someone you know. I'm happy explain it some more any really did Possibly murder someone. So I'm just you know you got asked that last name deeply on settling Andrea more safety. Tips always get to the bar early. Make friends with the bartender find a way to make a joke? That implies I'm on a first date like Oh. I hope he gets here. Tinder you know and then I pay for my drink. So my tab is closed out. I can leave at any moment and then my last safety tip is to always listen to your own warning signs so if something feels off like he won't stop going to the bathroom throughout the date and just feels like you're thinking to yourself. I wonder if he's using drugs like pay attention that little voice because it matters. Thank you Andrea. So then these are the fun tips. Oh good I think when you look at people's dating profiles instead of looking for what you dislike you know. I don't like that sports team too. Many photos of him with his friends you know. Try to stop and really think about something. You might like the draws you to that person and it also just keeps your head in a more positive place so you're not just like billing yourself with dread and hate the whole experience. My other tip is to always show your profile to a friend. Get them to call you out on your bullshit and then the other thing is to find a way of keeping track of your dates to make sure you're actually going on dates because online dating can feel like dating but it's not you're just swiping. I think you actually need a log the hours with someone across the table with a drink in your hand to get better dating. Andrea to the best of your abilities when did do like online dating revolution start was it like e harmony was it okay. Cupid MATCH DOT COM. It was before tinder right. I mean online dating for me feels like as old as being online so my grandma when in the early days of AOL heard about a website called classified two thousand dot Com. That's like real estate. It kind of it was like the first classified section online before craigslist became. Just the one we use for that and they had a personal section. She heard about it from her friend. Rhoda and She wrote her own personal ad on it. Sixty five ish plumpish. Jewish was the title of her personal ad and she heard from younger guys. She heard from gun collector. She heard from all kinds of people and then she heard from my grandpa Sol and she knew he was the wine when they got in the cab after their lunch date and he said we're off like a herd of turtles slowdown. Grab us all which was the thing. My GRANDPA say cute so my grandma obviously pionior. But then I wasn't really hearing about online dating until around two thousand nine when my college xs were telling me that they were doing. And that's my started to hear a lot about a website called. Okay CUPID DOT COM. So I signed up for. Okay keep it in. Probably Twenty Ten. And you're okay. Cupid profile involves filling out a survey. You know uploading a collection of photos probably from your digital camera. It was just a totally different moment for online dating. And you would kind of have it open at work as another tab on your browser but doing it on your phone needs so much sense. At the moment tender launch there was no going back tender. The Game Changer. Shutouts to grinder. Yeah tender shows up in two thousand twelve there. Is this Internet Entrepreneur Justin Martinez? Who hosted a party at his parents house in? California in order to get in. He asked Sorority sisters and fraternity brothers from nearby colleges to be sure that they downloaded this new APP just created called tender so tender started at a college party. What is it about this college party dating APP? That was such a game changer. Was it just that it was on your phone. So tender was the first time that we had swiping on our phones. Were you sort different? Profiles with your thumbs going left and right for no and yes and that apt device just totally changed the way we use our phones and for me as a data it was suddenly fund online date again because it kind of gamified the whole thing Yeah and it made me feel powerful in a way that I hadn't felt with online dating before you know. I'm just using my little thumb but I'm like I could picture future with you never you. You don't get to talk to me and it's actually. Tinder had this. Belton Safety Privacy Feature. Which is that only the people that you opted to allow me to message. You got to message you. Okay cupid if felt like standing naked on a subway platform. You know. It'd be message after message from guys saying Nice is oh. I like your bike. Whatever nonsense they wanted to tell me about me. The bike compliment is very nice. But I'm not interested. I wonder you know I mean with all of the the new APPS and all of the trend towards going online to find your partner to go on your date to meet a romantic interest. Whatever it might be. What is it done to like our sense of romance? What is done to like the numbers on on dating and marriage and all that stuff as it as it revolutionized love. We have more single people than at any other time in. History millennials are getting married later than any other generation before but When it comes to dating APPS I don't think they're helping solve that problem. The research is actually showing that we are not actually dating that much anymore. What so there's survey data from twenty seventeen. This is a study from Stanford that showed that only eighteen point seven percent of UN partnered heterosexual men and eleven point. Four percent of an partnered heterosexual women went on any dates at all in the past year. Law So over. Eighty percent of all single people aren't dating and I think we all have that friend who says I don't know I just can't do it anymore of I'll make time for it next year. I got to lose five pounds or whatever I just have these friends who are very comfortable putting off the work of dating because it sucks. It's terrible it would have been my preference to meet someone years ago and never have to develop this expertise but the wait a minute. The vast majority of single people in America more than eighty percent them are not dating aren't millions of people using these APPs. Dating APPS are now the number one way people meet. I mean shot. This is the way people meet now. You could look at the second most popular dating APP in the US which has bumble. And that's behind tinder. They say they have eighty one million users in one hundred fifty countries although caveat to those eighty one million only eleven million of them actually use the APP once a month so you could have a lot of people on your APP but it doesn't necessarily mean they're logging. Enin going on dates okay. So this is how people meet but people are also dating less. We have more single people than ever before. What does that tell us? People are using the APP but not finding what they're looking for. You know I think if you're looking for a lasting relationship you going to be creating a really different profile. Then someone who is in and actually are a lot of people who really do. WanNa find long term partners so this year. Tinder released the information that the number one word that appears most frequently on all of their dating profiles cross all tender is the word real real real as in like. I'm looking for a real relationship or I'm looking for someone who's like a real person who really wants to meet me and Andrea have you. Have you met a real person yet? You know over the years I got really good at online so using my you know ten thousand hours of online dating. I think is how I met my boyfriend. Others boyfriend congratulations muzzle. We just celebrated four months. So it's early but I think his cats are about to meet my dog. Wow does this be that? After his his cats. Meet your dog. Maybe you delete the league. Hinge bumbled Tinder Riot J. Swipe coffee meets bagel cores. Lex Lo fi. Okay Cupid and scrap from your phone. I don't think I can hear really likes using my dating. He likes yes so Dan will grab my phone. Sometimes when he's bored and he'll open up hinge and just you know kind of marvel at all of his competition and feel relieved that we've met each other. No say look at this guy. Aw Valentine's Day Andrea Silenzi. Have you to use Sean to you? Valentinus year everyone wants to know. GotTa go Andrea by

Andrea Silenzi US match group Google Tinder League California rape Araya Sean Romney PROPUBLICA CROHN Davy Wayne spotify Y. O. Y. Dj Columbia Journalism La Marcus Samuelsson Andrei
What to make of a good (not great) jobs report

Marketplace with Kai Ryssdal

26:23 min | 8 months ago

What to make of a good (not great) jobs report

"I'm just in Ho with marketplace, the economy is changing so fast it's hard to keep up. So our latest podcast is here to help it's called the marketplace minute give us just sixty seconds and we'll bring you the latest on what's happening in the economy three times a day market updates business news in hell the numbers affect your personal economy. We'll tell you what you need to know why it matters. Just ask your speaker to play the marketplace minute or find it wherever you get your podcasts. Good jobs news yes. Not Great though good. Kinda. That and the week did was straight ahead from American public media. This is marketplace. In Los Angeles I'm Kai. Ryssdal. It is Friday today everybody the fourth day of September good as always to have you long. The macro an economic number of the day as this pandemic gets set entered seventh month. If you can believe that is one point, three, seven, million that is jobs added to this economy in the month of August. Three million people who'd been temporarily laid off, came back to work and that helped bring the unemployment rate down almost two percentage points to eight point four percent. All of that is good like I. But a chunk of those jobs, a quarter million or so or temporary census workers who are going to be out of work again soon. And more to the point job growth is slowing a million plus in August, as I said, it was nearly five million a month back in June. What else are you bear in mind? marketplace's Mitchell Hartman is on the putting the jobs report in context beat today. This economy has been through a lot since mid-march about fifteen percent of all the jobs in America evaporated in just a few weeks. We've been clawing back those jobs ever since here's how Brad McMillan at Commonwealth financial network rates the latest report it was good. It wasn't great, but it was certainly solid. It says we're continuing to make progress. We also have a long way to go gaining. One point four million jobs would be blockbuster in normal times but economist acres at the Manhattan Institute says, now that number may be giving the nece impressions that were doing pretty well digging out of this hole but the reality is that we're only about halfway out a little over ten million of the twenty, two million jobs we've lost have come back and job gains are slowing acres says. This is really a tale of two recoveries in Plano levels for higher income workers have almost come back to pre-crisis level whereas employment levels for low wage workers remains significantly below where they were and it's also unclear when those workers will be able to get back to work jobs in bars and restaurants. For instance, are still down twenty five percent from before the pandemic, which leaves a lot. Of workers out of the recovery so far like Cody Sorensen he's thirty three worked as a server at an upscale Italian restaurant in West Hollywood. Until mid March. Sorensen's on indefinite layoff. He's still getting health benefits and a four hundred dollar a week on employment check when that runs out I. Mean I'm just GonNa have to go and find like another job or I'm just gonNA have to move. Back on the Texas, you know where he hopes, they'll be less competition for any new jobs that come up I'm Mitchell Hartman for marketplace. All right with that as backdrop. Let's dig in a little bit on jobs in the other news of the day and this week Gina Smile is with The New York, Times K Davidson is at the Wall Street Journal Hey to. Take. So. Kate, let me start with you picking up on Mitchell's spot and he gave a nod to this but I wanna I wanNA. Make sure people get it. There is despite this good. Not Report today. There are some underlying fragility in this economy right twenty, nine, million people on some kind of employment benefit small businesses closing left and right? Yeah. That's right As you sort of hinted at kite, it was kind of it was kind of a mixed report. On the one hand eight, point, four percent unemployment is much lower than where many people thought. We'd be at this point but things are still really bad and I guess the thing to understand is that the people who are still out of work many of them are people at the lower end of the wage scale that have jobs in industries that have been harder hit by the pandemic in hotel workers. Restaurant Workers people in industries that are are still struggling to come back in the longer these people stay out of work. The risk is that those more of those job losses become become permanent. So it's on the right track, but you know a long way to go still. Those permanent job losses that long standing damage to the economy Gina is something Fisher. Powell. Talks about a lot he gave an interview to morning edition this morning it's GonNa era on Monday the transcript is out for those who wanted to I want to Parse a couple of things he said number one. Low interest rates in this economy are going to be here and this is quoting Powell for a period measured in years. That is I. Mean it's kind of we know it but it's kind of amazing. Yeah Yeah. No surprise to bond markets which are. Obviously Recognizing that. We're in for a really long period of low interest rates but I think that, yeah, it's it's remarkable. If you remember back to the two, thousand, seven to two, thousand, nine recession and you know serve within within not a very long time span people were talking about you know when is liftoff? When is the Fed going to raise rates? You know, what's when do they start removing this extraordinary accommodation and I feel like you know in over the last decade that? Conversation is just fundamentally shift shifted and a lot of that was to two draw them pal who has been very clear about communicating that we're in this for the duration you know they are not planning on just like immediately raising rates as soon as we get past sort of the the worst with this recession, we are in this guy, this environment for a really long time until the job market has you know he odin really after what quickly as until inflation picks out. which goes back to what he was talking about last week and Pseudo Jackson hole as it were I'm kate one of the other things they'd POW talked about with morning edition today is debt and Fiscal Policy and and specifically he said you know what we need help. Now in fiscal policy, this is not the time to worry about debt and fixing that structure which goes to a piece. He wrote this week about the size of the federal debt and how it's GonNa be this coming fiscal year as as big entire economy. That's right. We've seen since March given all the the spending to fight the pandemic and tax revenues going down because people out of work the debt to GDP ratio. That is the level of debt that we have compared to. The size of the economy is almost at one hundred percent and and at the end of last year for just some point of reference, it was just about eighty percent. That's a huge jump doesn't mean anything though I think if we listened to what share Powell was saying in like Gina said, we look at bond markets they're kinda saying not really interest rates are so low and that means that the government can borrow. With at, you know very, very little money from lack of a better term You know that the cost of that debt are going down and the Congressional Budget Office put out a report this week saying that despite this Serious significant deterioration in the economic outlook despite all this extra spending, they actually see spending less over the next ten years on interest costs than they did in. March. Before they pandemic, which is just really remarkable in that suggests that we still have a lot of room to borrow, and so you have you know legislators in a lot of economists frankly saying there's no reason not to do this. We can't afford this. We should be spending more to support the economy right now, and even if it adds to the debt, it's well worth it. You've you, I. Super. Don't WanNa get political on this because it's it's really fraught, but you can see and we have seen in the past number of months. The idea of Oh my goodness federal debt we have to cut cut cut becoming a factor in this election right? I think certainly you do see that I think I think certainly you hear a little bit of about it from Senate Republicans in particular. I think it was notable that you didn't hear anything about it at the RNC at the Republican National Convention last week basically no mention of the data, the deficit which makes sense because it's run up dramatically under president trump's leadership. I. Imagine that will change after the election depending on WHO's in office. But I, do think it is a really interesting question to watch sort of how the politics of debt change as as Keith mentioned we clearly, we've some of these historical limitations on what it means to run a big national debt in the past along with higher interest rates. Kit, how do you stop people like just who read the wall, Street Journal, New, York Times, and freak out about the fact that the debt is so big. It is a scary number and people sort of look at it and go. Oh my goodness we have to stop it so hard by I get so. Down a little bit rabbit hole air. So now I get so I get so many reader emails and I I tracker spent a lot of them and yeah, it's just kind of walking them through that idea I think one of the most important charts were what we were talking about before the the interest costs and also I think when you listen to economists try to explain this it's also Kind of getting at the idea that the H-. Household Balance Sheet is very different than the government's balance sheet right? You know the government isn't going to die when they get to a certain age you know the government has never defaulted on its on its debts. It's just a very different dynamic and it's it's very hard for people to understand you. They have to live within their means and why can't The government but the reality is it's a it's it's really the really two very different things. It's not really an apt comparison and so I. So I try to explain to people you know if you could if you could buy something and basically pay almost zero interest on it some and it would better your life, it would improve your life your quality of life wouldn't you know would Would that make sense on the other hand? The worry is, of course that will get to some point and maybe it's years away like Jerome Powell said but at some point rates could go up and when you you have debt that. So large, it becomes much more sensitive. Those little changes in interest can cost a lot of money. So their sales still some concern there and it's it's important to talk about. which we're trying to do come. Through Journal Not Right now, right? Exact- exactly. Wall Street, Journal, Juna, smile at the New York Times on a Friday afternoon. Thanks you too appreciate it. Thanks. K. Next Guy Nice weekend on wall. Street on this Friday in early September. Well look at least it's not gonna be the woz right we'll have the details when we do the numbers. Speaking of interest rates as we just were. If you're a homeowner, you're probably at least thought lately about refinancing your mortgage for six weeks in a row. Now, the average rate on a thirty year fixed rate mortgage has been below three percents. There are according to the Mortgage Data Company Black Knight nearly eighteen million people who could have taken three quarters of a percentage point off their interest rate if they'd refinanced. So. Why aren't more of them doing marketplace's Amy Scott has that one? Jesse Ziegler has been thinking about refinancing for a long time when he and his wife bought their house in. Atlanta five years ago their mortgage had four point seven, five percent interest rate since then they've seen rates rise and fall and fall, and then finally we were able to refinance down to three percents which when the paperwork goes through will save them up to four hundred dollars a month a lifeline given that Ziegler's hours have been cut at his job in flight operations for Delta. Wish, we would have done it earlier but by waiting as rates kept falling, he saving more money ziglar was able to fold the closing costs into the loan and will break even pretty quickly. Not something everyone can do greg McBride chief financial analyst with bankrate says, that's one reason people don't refinance even though the cumulative savings over the years to come by refinancing is tens of thousands of dollars because somebody that's short on cash that can be a tough sell and there's just the hassle shopping around for rates and scanning documents and getting an appraisal tim, Egerton. Director in San Diego remembers thinking about refinancing last summer when interest rates fell sharply with all, we had going on in our life just feeling like another thing to do more paperwork and we weren't uniquely hard up for the money but that's changed. Egerton wife is a hairdresser and her salon has been closed for much of the past several months they were told they couldn't refinance until she's working again and can verify her income. She started back this week and they plan to give it another shot. I'm. Amy Scott for marketplace. Coming up. Can still make children laugh even through it I felt. Some good news for a change but I Yes. Sure. Let's do the numbers. The Dow industrials down one hundred and fifty nine points today a half percent twenty, eight, thousand, one, thirty, three, the Nasdaq up forty four points. That's one point two, percent eleven thousand three, one, three, the S&P, five, hundred ended the date twenty, eight points lower eight tenths percent. Finished at thirty four, twenty six. Let me tell you though that was climb back from an ugly morning for the week the Dell off one point eight percent the Nasdaq gave back three and a quarter percent listen P five, hundred down two point, three percent. The holiday weekend is upon us as you know in in the Pre Co. Videira that many people getting on planes and flying to all sorts of places. Now, not TSA says the number of people who processed yesterday. Just above eight hundred, seventy seven, thousand people that is almost sixty percent drop from the same time year ago you're listening to marketplace. Everybody it's original I've got four kids and when the Hamilton Soundtrack came out a couple of years ago, they got really excited to learn more about this country's financial history and how to get smarter about money and how it works in our everyday lives. All Right? No, that's not totally true but we did play it on repeat for a very long time at our house. My point is getting your kids excited to learn about money can be hard, but it is super super important, and that is why we've made it a little bit easier for you to do that with a new podcast for kids and their families. MILLION ZILLION for marketplace helping dollars make more sense. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. This is marketplace I'm Kai Ryssdal we have been reporting low these many months how the virus has changed and changing what and how we buy today. Soup. The Campbell soup company reported a seventeen percent jump in sales after the pandemic started out a twelve percent jump for the most recent quarter. Really Nice numbers honestly for a company that had been honestly struggling for years. But as they say, past performance is no guarantee of future results marketplace Justin who is on that one Campbell's has slew of familiar brands in its portfolio kettle potato chips, goldfish crackers, V8. Tomato juice, and the company says one of the biggest sellers of the past year that quintessential comfort food plain old soup John Stanton is a professor of food marketing at Saint Joseph's university. He's got some Campbell's tomato soup and his pantry right now, I just can't make from scratch good tomato soup. So it's like the only one I by stanton used to consult with Campbell's soup is a high margin products for the company. So the pandemic has spurred a nice revenue bump I think that they should enjoy it because I don't think it's GonNa. Last forever Campbell says, it expects soup sales decline given how explosive this year's growth has been Phil Limpert supermarket grew as a food industry analyst he says canned. Foods like Campbell's flew off the shelves because people were Hoarding Grocery Staples and buying whatever was still available. It was the only thing on the shelf. So people bought it and people's cupboards even to this point are still stocked. But even if soup sales decline that hoarding could boost the Campbell brand overall persona at Dartmouth University says although soup cans and snacks people crammed into their cupboards they are really big. Straight inside people's homes soup has the brand this year but Campbell says it'll invest more and products we like to eat and good times and that that includes cookies chips packaged froth. I'm just Justin Ho for marketplace. We were talking earlier in the program about jobs as your member and this morning's good. But not great report from the Labor Department. But look, they got their ways looking at the American. Labor Force. We got ours when ours is a series, we started earlier this year called the United States of work ten people we found who were basically representative sample of the labor force as a whole and who we asked how this economy is working for them. Kate Baleno is one of the ten when we first introduced you to her. Back, in February, she was a new account Rep at first bank Colorado but September it turns out is going to be a big month for her. So we got her back on the phone. Kid is good to have you back on. Thank you so much for having me, Kyw. So what is going on at? First Bank, Colorado since last we spoke which was a number of months ago. What's latest? I. Bank is still plugging away. It's. I am solely focused on the paycheck protection programs still Last time we spoke I had been moved over temporary to the Contact Center I've actually been promoted to a manager. So now I- managing the contact center. So, lots of changes since we last talked definitely you're also finishing up school soon right or have you just I am finishing up school this weekend my last class ends on Sunday. I'm so excited. Good for you. Good for you. Now, here's here's the here's the question that college graduates could ask. What are you gonNA do with yourself now Yes, what do you want to do when you're done with school? Well. Last time we talked I was finishing up my business management degree with the plan of applying for first. Bank's management trainee program and while before the pandemic that was definitely the goal and I have some news I'm actually. Relocating to Washington DC at the end of the month and I am pursuing some opportunities in public service. More number one. Wow number two, what are you do? You have a job lined up hitter you just up and moving what are you doing and? Why? Yeah. So Wow. Twenty twenty has been a year as I'm sure. The. Entire country is experiencing kinda going through I've really kinda shifted in who I am and who I want to be an how I want to kind of use my voice in whatever capacity I'm in whether that's the private sector public sector helping people with finances or helping human rights initiatives I just feel very called to work in a public service capacity. So right now I don't have a job lined up. My partner and I are kind of moving. Once, I get to DC I. AM hoping to start networking, sending out resumes everywhere. And just kind of scene which opportunities present themselves once physically there. I think we have to dig into this a little bit right because people will not be able to hear this on the radio but you are. Chinese American you were adopted as a toddler. From China into a white family and and I imagine the events of this summer in the spring have sort of landed on you a little bit. Yes. So Personally I've been kind of going through. A self reflecting kind of soul-searching journey. Growing up as an adopted chinese-american in a predominantly white community. I was afforded the I guess privilege of not having to really. Pay attention to what was happening with my community the Chinese American community in the United States, and I definitely loved a very privileged life in that sense where I just kind of turned a blind eye to it. But with the events of the summer I recognize that that's not okay and I am better than that, I can do better and that is kind of where this journey has taken me. I would really love to get involved in social justice human rights civil rights initiatives out in DC. It's definitely been a very interesting turn of events turn of direction in my life but I feel one hundred percent ready for this and I definitely think that it's where I'm supposed to be what I'm supposed to be doing. Well Good luck to you Kate Baleno her Colorado. At at first bank out there for for a while and then going to. See. What you can do kate thanks a lot I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having us. Oh, great. Talking to you. Again Nice Kentucky Okay we'll talk to you soon. Laughter might not be able to cure all of the increased stresses anxieties a lot of us and a lot of our kids are feeling from this pandemic, but it's important. Laughter is I think and. Well, if you're not going to take from me, here's a professional. My name is Suzie Estes I live in New York. City, and I am a children's entertainer with my husband and we performance Sammy and Tutti. So. We did a lot of online parties in April May June and then it started sort of weening out. We've only done maybe one or two parties a week. It's definitely not like a regular schedule for us. We've done a few things where we'll make a like a thirty to forty minute video and then people can have access to it for a week. And that's something that you know a few libraries and summer camps have done and I think that's that might be something that we can continue to do. Maybe with schools, you know the zoom parties pay about a third to. A quarter of what we normally would make going out and doing a live event. So financially, it's difficult. We thought about moving because we've started thinking about we'll golly if we can't make. Money can we live in New York City? Humor is humor. So kids find the same jokes funny and the same sort of style of of what we do does seem to resonate. which is comforting to know that we can still make children laugh even through an iphone. But it's but it's Zito it's. That's that's been probably the best part of this is being able to expose ourselves to all over the country and. Even Canadians I think we've had a few can't. We had one child who was in Hong Kong and it seems rather frivolous you know sometimes but. One of the things I've been thinking about is how when you laugh you're in the moment, you can't think about yesterday you can't think about tomorrow you're just really present and I, think that's one of the reasons why laughter heels and makes people feel better as because. You can't grab onto the unknown. Make sense right. That was Susie this New York City making people laugh. Tell us about your economy. Would you online marketplace Dot Org? This final note on the way out today, it's kind of a glass half full glass half empty kind of thing. Gasbuddy.com says gas prices this Labor Day weekend are the lowest they've been since two, thousand, four, two dollars and nineteen cents is the average price per gallon that's down thirty seven cents from a year ago. So yea. But where are you GONNA go? Okay, we are done and Outta here on a Friday. But here is a moment of context to send you into the long weekend gets us back to the jobs report with which we began today. and. Yes. The overall unemployment rate is down to eight point four percents good. Not Great. But good. But for White Americans it seven point three percent unemployment black Americans. Thirteen percents I mentioned that because we stopped paying attention to this. We're GONNA stop paying attention to. Our theme music was composed by Bj Liederman marketplace's executive producer is nancy leniency cast. It is the managing director of news I'm Kai Ryssdal will seem on everybody enjoy long weekend. If you get one, this is APN.

Jerome Powell Kate Baleno Campbell Mitchell Hartman Gina Smile New York City Kai Ryssdal Colorado Campbell soup company United States managing director Los Angeles First Bank Manhattan Institute Cody Sorensen America Brad McMillan Plano
Teens are on TikTok, businesses are on WeChat

Marketplace with Kai Ryssdal

27:56 min | 7 months ago

Teens are on TikTok, businesses are on WeChat

"This marketplace podcast is supported by new egg marketplace. Are you an e commerce business selling on big marketplace platforms but finding it impossible to reach a real human new egg proudly offers sellers the same exceptional service. They offer millions of customers around the globe got a new egg dot com slash sellers slash podcast to learn more about how to partner with new egg and by. ALARM DOT COM teamwork makes the DREAM WORK AND ALARM DOT COM makes your homework all with one single SMART APP alarm dot com, unites, your security locks, doorbell camera lights, video cameras, and Thermostat into one smart system with one single smart APP to control it all plus alarm dot com alert you when there's unusual activity in and around your home learn more at alarm dot com. The kids are going to be really upset if they lose Tiktok over national security concerns but you know it was going to miss. We chat the most American businesses from American public media. This is marketplace. In. Oakland I'm Hollywood in per Kara's doll. It's Friday September. Eighteenth good to have you with us and congratulations on making it through yet another week in this emotional and economic roller coaster we call normal. I A wrap up of the big economic stories of the week and let's just dive on in. Shall we on his Watson is with the New York Times Catherine Reimpell is at the Washington Post to. Hey There So. Let's actually start you heard at the top of this conversation about TIKTOK. And we chat what do we think are the potential ripple effects culturally economically and otherwise of something like this I'll start with that. I'm GonNa Picture Yeah of course of course I've been writing about this today. So this is the unprecedented ban on some really popular services in. So I think the potential ripple effects are really interesting. Know first of all these APPs will the government isn't going to go out police, people and make them delete the apps from their phones but these APPs will start to degrade for users here in the United States functionality will get weaker and you know so that will affect people of people's us There's questions about whether there will be Chinese retaliation at China already blocks of American services like twitter and facebook. But there are other things that the Chinese government could do to penalize American companies I think it raises questions that whether we'll see more bands like this on other Chinese companies, Alibaba. For example, and then Wesley just taking a big picture view we seem to be headed toward a situation in which what we think of as the global Internet is breaking down into a lot of different Internet's with different roles for the US for China for Europe and for a long time, we thought about the internet breath down borders, connecting people around the world. But actually now, it kind of seems to be fracturing both do the nationalism and security fears. Catherine I think that's you know. Moving on from just these two APPs in this conversation, this is this is a big precedent to set in some ways. It's the US government taking a stance very similar to the Chinese government, right? Saying these are the kinds of businesses that will be allowed to operate here. How does that send me look for the Global Economy Yeah Well there are a number of complications that could arise from this right I mean you have First Amendment legal challenges already arising here within the United States you have the risk of businesses not being able to conduct their normal operations, wherever they are, and so their businesses already complained obviously about having to deal with different regulatory regimes Once they cross borders even if they are a company that digital. Company. For example, that does not operate strictly within the fiscal borders of any one country this is this is going to complicate their lives much more. And you could imagine that is on points out there could be further retaliation that just adds even more uncertainty for businesses as they're trying to. figure out how to operate within China within the United States stay on the right side of the law avoid offending. Any minder as it might turn him. I mean that said on a are these concerns real even if the data collection part is overblown it, there's no question that we chat and take talk in some ways. Can represent the viewpoint. Of the Chinese. Government. Right. Yeah I think when it comes to data collection you know cybersecurity experts, kind of debating how much of a risk there is i. mean. It certainly does could give the Chinese government access to some data and Chinese laws require that you know Chinese individuals Chinese companies submit that data to the Chinese government if asked. So part of the issue is a Chinese laws on that subject but there a lot of mobile services that collect a lot of data you know about Americans. That we haven't maybe thought about systematically the other argue the other argument here though is about the Chinese. Government's ability to censor put out propaganda and I think when you look at, we had it is clear that it is a conduit for for censorship in for propaganda it's also vitally important a communication system for the global Chinese diaspora but the Chinese government definitely has a say in shaping what reality like on that platform. Right. We'll have more on we talk actually and business in just a minute about thirty seconds left Catherine I WANNA ask you about fit the Fed and this plan to keep interest rates basically where they are until twenty twenty three. Why do you think the Fed is the government agency that really seems to be acknowledging how long a road this is going to be Well I think it turns out that when you have. When you have an institution that is not subject to short-term political incentives such as in election, it may mean that the people who work at that institution are able to think more long term and to be more honest about what the challenges that lie ahead actually are not just in the coming months, but in the coming years. So in a sense insulating the Federal Reserve, you know the the world's premier. Making body from those kinds of political constraints. May allow them to not only maintain credibility in terms of their forecasts, but also in terms of their their actual policy commitments so I think that's one potential way to explain. Why they have some somewhat of a darker view maybe a longer term view than other or other institutions. Honest with New York Times. Catherine reimpell from the Washington Post. Thanks so much you too. Thanks. On Wall Street today a little more hard truth here. You might want to sit down for this, but it turns out that tech stocks also go down. We'll have the details when we do the numbers. and. So a little more on these bands of Chinese companies, Tiktok gets the most attention we chat though we'll be banned effective Sunday. That is a big deal we chat has about a billion monthly users worldwide it's a staple as in fact, you just heard of the Chinese American community here in the US millions of people use it to stay in touch and also to buy stuff marketplace's Jasmin. Garcia reports starting Sunday users in the US will no longer be able to download or update tiktok and we chat. Also, they won't be able to make payments through each which could be a big deal to many of the millions of users in America who use the platform to send money back to China. Professor. Dan Wong Teaches at Columbia business school we paid is the world's largest payments platform. This is so ubiquitous that if you're a business to China and you don't have account, it is very difficult to pay for anything to for millions. In America, we had is the way to buy goods and send money to China Professor Ari Lightman from Carnegie Mellon says now those people will. Plead alternate ways associated with receiving renumeration or paying various different things, which is going to be very problematic and troublesome. William Wong in North Carolina is already trying to figure it out. He sends his family in China money for bills and goods through we chat. If sometimes we need to buy them from China to get shipped here. US. Reach out to pay heed our friends or family to make that purchase for a long says the ban will be a headache but he's more worried about how it will affect his parents we tied is the way they stay in touch with family back in China Michael Stern is for my parents that he cannot talk to. Their family or my extended family I guess. It anymore. If we is banned just cruel one says he hasn't yet told them about the we chat band I'm Jasmine Guards for marketplace. So you know about futures, you make a deal to buy or sell something at a certain price on October first or December first their futures for gold crude oil currencies, hogs, and now water. There's a new product that lets water users in California lock in prices for H. Two O. Commercial Users. The idea is to let you know farmers get access to water at predictable prices but as marketplace's Scott, Tong reports how will this actually work? To state the obvious. It's just not that easy to transact in water. It's not a block of gold or even a barrel of oil economist. Zetland is the author of living with water scarcity if you WANNA. Ship that water somewhere you're going to spend way more money shipping at than the is actually worse. It's GonNa be a very, very narrow list. Of buyers and sellers because they have to be local to the water but a small percent of California farmers do buy and sell, and this future's product would lead a farmer by a years worth of water at a price already locked in right now it's about five hundred bucks for three hundred, twenty, six, thousand gallons Tim. Court is managing director at the. Group, which is launching the water futures with already two billion people living in high stress water areas. There's a clear demand for the ability to manage price risks associated with water. Ideally, a price on water reflecting scarcity would prompt users to conserve it and sell any surplus for profit but with water selling is often not allowed because of complex rights issues says, Peter, Glick at the Pacific Institute think tank there were fewer places in California where water can be transferred legally. So he thinks the impact. Of the California water futures will be small. What is likely is the futures price will pinball up and down Ellen Hanoch is with the Public Policy Institute. Of California, we have a volatile precipitation pattern can be dry or wet in any given year and demand tighter for investors. These futures are a new way to bet on a fast changing climate. If you saw the movie the big short about the two, thousand, eight financial crisis recall one investor who saw coming saying he's now focused on trading water. I'm Scott Tong for marketplace. Coming up. Short And the show on Willett though no yeah, it will. But first, let's do the numbers. The Dow Jones industrial average I mean, it's relaxing. Right ended the day down two hundred and forty four points. Eight tenths of a percent to close at twenty seven, thousand, six, fifty, seven, I mean the music not the numbers the Nasdaq fell one hundred sixteen point one percent to finish at ten, thousand, seven, hundred three and the S&P five hundred gave back thirty seven points one and a tenth percent to finish at thirty-three nineteen for the week. The Dow is down less than a tenth of a percent. The Nasdaq Nasdaq dipped a little over half a percent, the S. and p. five hundred fell just shy of two thirds of a percent as we head into the weekend. Let's look at gas prices a gallon of regular about two dollars and eighteen cents on average according to AAA bonds fell slightly the yield on the tenure keynote is point six nine percent and you're listening to marketplace. This marketplace podcast is supported by First Republic Bank experience, personalize banking from the comfort of your home with the newly redesigned first republic mobile APP. You can schedule upcoming payments, manage your debit card and talk to your banker anytime anywhere. The first republic APP is available now on the APP store and Google play. visit. First Republic Dot, com slash digital to learn more. That's first republic dot com slash digital member. FDIC. Equal housing lender. And by Forbes what's ahead podcast now more ever understanding the nuances of are uncertain and rapidly changing world is key to success on the podcast. WHAT'S AHEAD FINANCIAL LEGEND Steve Forbes sits down with today's leading business economic and cultural minds everyone from CEO's to scientists to celebrities to give listeners a better grasp of what's coming as well as sharing his own perspectives on the days most pressing issues on what's ahead, Steve Forbes. Talks with everyone from Jack Ma. Steven Schwartzman to Dr Oz to give listeners insights from across the spectrum of ideas the key to getting and staying out in front is understanding what's ahead. So check out what's ahead with Steve Forbes on Apple podcasts, spotify stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to check out what's ahead with Steve Forbes wherever you get your podcast. This is marketplace I'm molly would millions of kids are starting school remotely this month, New York City Mayor Bill De. Blasio, announced just yesterday that school there won't reopen on Monday that was short notice the city will be phasing kids into. Over the next few weeks and each week on marketplace tech, we were talking about the challenges of remote schooling. One of the biggest is broadband Internet access cities and school districts are distributing thousands of WIFI hotspots in homes and public places, and in some ways creating lots of new Internet broadband infrastructure on the fly. Christopher. Mitchell is director of the community broadband, Networks Initiative at the Nonprofit Institute for Local Suffer Lions Chris thanks for being here. Thank you. All right. So for those who don't know I'm sure most do but like. What is a hot do for people? Why are we seeing school districts and cities and even private companies set these up? A wireless hotspot is something that will basically give Internet access often a pretty decent signal for about three hundred feet around it, and so we're seeing companies and nonprofit organizations and all kinds of entities setting them up often in parking lots so that people can access the Internet when they don't have home Internet access. And then some cities are like Adenuga in Chicago are providing broadband straight to individual homes. I guess I wonder you know will there be any going back from broadband as a utility. This way once everybody's got some version of it it's it's interesting because I was just looking at it an argument in a city council in which they were arguing well, we're going to install these hotspots. Should we take them down at some point? Do we want to say we're only going to do it for two years and ultimately they decided that they should leave them up indefinitely in the I feel like at this point, it's hard to imagine where it will be a. Policy to not have kids have home Internet access in part because I think we're going to see different things like for instance, covid nineteen may pop again in certain school districts and they'll have to go offline actually go online for a month. So I don't think there's any going back now. ISP's have deployed hotspots, private companies have, but a lot of school districts are also really having to pick up the slack here like what does it say that we're asking school districts to provide Internet access to their students so that they can stay online and keep learning? Yes and To, give an example, it's everything from schools that are making WIFI available in the parking lots to schools that are spending tens of millions of dollars perhaps in partnership with the city or a private provider to build a private wireless network just students that tens of thousands of students will access. To schools are going to great lengths and I feel like it. Some was the norm for schools where we have societal problems like kids not getting enough to eat in the schools kind of step up I certainly feel like we can learn something from schools in the can do attitudes we've seen in a lot of places what About the money like we know that you know city and state revenues. Are taking a huge hit as a result of the pandemic almost always results in cuts to education budgets like how does this trickle down? Win Schools are in that position districts are in that position after spend tens of millions of dollars on infrastructure. Well, some of this is definitely coming out of the cares act which was federal legislation that put money toward different activities that would benefit people who've been harmed by covid nineteen trying to just blunt the impact. So a lot of the money that we've seen going into. These different investments has been from that and I don't know where the next tranche of money is going to come from local governments and states have real budget shortfalls or worried about but the federal government I, mean it's one of the reasons we trust the federal government is that is supposed to be counter-cyclical. It's supposed to spend money when no one else can in often in smart investments and we are not seeing that right now if schools hadn't gone remote, do you think we would have seen this push for? Expanded access I think we would have over time I think it accelerated things. I mean. Some of these schools already had these plans because this was an issue I mean there's school districts in which half of the kids did not have home Internet access and it's led to significant racial inequity where you certainly have kids that tend to be more people of color who have less home, Internet access, and so then they have less opportunity to learn. Already. Often facing more challenging circumstances in. So this was a big deal already, but it just became intolerable when you couldn't do any schoolwork rather than just not being able to do your homework. Christopher Mitchell is the director of the Community Broadband Networks Initiative at the Institute for Local self-reliance. Thanks so much for the time. Thank you molly. The pandemic has been nothing short of a disaster for well. Things, really not least of which is cultural institutions like art museums many are facing severe budget shortfalls New York's Metropolitan Museum of art could face a deficit of over one hundred, million dollars this year, some smaller museums might have to close permanently marketplace's Eric Barris looked into what art museums may have to do to survive. Next month, the Brooklyn Museum will sell twelve pieces from its permanent collection museums regularly sell art to acquire other arts but selling art for financial reasons that's long been a huge. No, no says nyu finance. Professor. David Your Mac the rationale for that was really to just keep the curator's from selling the collection to overpay themselves into to personally consume the value of the collection. But then the pandemic happened says Michael O'hare a professor at UC Berkeley and people not coming. And Not. Paying mission that means museums will be facing budget shortfalls says Brent, Benjamin President of the Association of Art Museum. Directors anywhere from tens to hundreds of millions of dollars. So I'm really a significant financial impact art museums are in a unique position to ride out the pandemic crisis unlike zoos or Natural History Museum says, Wayne State University Art Historian Geoffrey. Apt. They have assets that can be translated into cash. For fairly quickly and fairly efficiently. Most major art museums have a surplus of art says, nyu's David Your Mac. He estimates five paintings and storage for everyone on display they sold these off not only could they improve their own financial positions, but you could really find other places for the art to be displayed smaller museums could build their own collections and if it came to it, though smaller museums could sell that art I'm Eric Barest for marketplace. More virus fallout in the arts this time in Mexico before the pandemic, the theater industry in Mexico. was growing steadily becoming Latin America's Broadway and a hub for many US productions. But now the industry and its workers have seen a big decline in jobs with only limited ways to retool productions safely from KGB's Mexico City Bureau Rodriguez Bandai's reports. This is what the main song from one of the biggest. Broadway musicals performed in Mexico City sounded like earlier this year. Jesus Christ superstar or his crystal super straight in Spanish was one of the most successful place in Mexico. Until the pandemic struck, it's become an absolute nightmare because priorities do not include us that's Guillermo Vehicles Vice President of a Mexican Society of theater producers though I need mealy on seats we haven't solved. Some families depend directly on what date earn from the heater via says, the Mexican theater industry has lost about one billion dollars since theaters closing early March even before the official locked down the producer says, the government hasn't provided any relief even Texas counts instead authorities suggested producing pleased with three actors or fewer and using open empha- theaters and masks like the Greeks. Did in the past. I don't want to offend anybody. Those measures are not sensitive at all via says the government also suggested video streaming, but he says the model doesn't work for the theatre where there are expenses like royalties to international companies. The government is now allowing some theaters in Mexico City to reopen, but with a limited audience capacity of up to thirty percent said, he'll Maya was a producer at Villanova actor and became famous in the eighties singing in the bubblegum pop band got. Now. My Year is a member of Mexico's Congress and leads culture and film comedian. He says, he's experiences. A performer makes him more sensitive to the magnitude of the current problem. My says, creative industries represent thirty one billion dollars of economic activity per year about three point five percent of Mexico's GDP. Regulated they last. West. Says he's pushing a bill to help creative industries. We would allow the use of money from the government's auctions if artworks taken from people who couldn't make their tax payments, he says that money should be used to reactivate the culture and arts because says, it's also a moment for the theater and entertainment industries to be resilent and some in the industry are finding ways to do that at the Abbey is a technical director for one of the largest theatre complexes in Mexico. City. We have to be optimistic we're not optimistic going to. Drown Billy says one of the theater technician she knows created prototype ventilators adapting to current crisis and for her that's an example to follow but it's still not easier to transfer skills from theatre to other fields where to suffering because isn't that that if I don't work in the theatre I, go and work in another thing that's ignition says she knows people living their savings. Some of our colleagues have died from Cohen Nineteen recently, she heard about a children's playing a parking lot was successful and for her it shows that theaters capable of adapting to the times they show must go on and the show though on. Be says that the industry will grow stronger if people try to stick together and innovative in Mexico City, I'm rolled eagles seventies for marketplace. This final note on the way out, you know I have often thought that the US was way behind in vending machine culture we've gotten better. You can now get your Uniqlo Coats and best buy headphones and make up at the airport vending machines, and now from the footwear company Keane, you can also get face masks. The Portland based company has ruled out. Five a facemask vending machines worldwide three in Portland proper and I guess it's not that surprising to hear give it in Portland to hear that they include tie and some feature the artwork of Jerry Garcia. But still for those days when you forgot your mask or you lost it or you just want to look a little cooler, I, mean that is genius. And here's your bit of economic context for Friday. Business insider has a chart on how archaic shaped recovery is playing out. The chart is also a handy definition of a term. Many of you heard I on make me smart. high-wage industries lost the fewest jobs and have recovered. The most low wage industries lost. The most jobs are recovering the slowest and that slow recovery is getting even slower. I know you've already heard this, but honestly in never hurts to have another chart. Our theme music was composed by J. Liederman marketplace's executive producer is Nancy for Golly Nancy. Kassebaum is the managing director of News and I'm Ali would we'll see Monday. This is a PM. So it turns out voting during global pandemic isn't so simple smacks you in the face where it's like you think in, you'd get terrified I'm not gonna be able to vote because it's not safe from Italy. My House I'm as back with a new season of this is uncomfortable. This week we look at the drama unfolding in courtrooms across the country over mail and voting. We also go back in time to explore how money and power I've always dictated who can and can't afford to votes. Episode drops Thursday wherever they get your podcast.

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As FBI Tackles Chinese Espionage, Some Fear A New Red Scare

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:55 min | 1 year ago

As FBI Tackles Chinese Espionage, Some Fear A New Red Scare

"From NPR and WBU BOSTON. I'm Robert Siegel in for mega truck regarding this week. And this is on point as China and the United States Jockey for position as the world's great superpower one of the sore points in that competition is knowledge. Intellectual Property Advanced Technologies China. Our authorities tell us is climbing to the top not just by virtue of hard work but with a wholesale campaign to steal that knowledge from US campuses corporations and governments but as the FBI has cracked down. My I guess today says they've often arrested. Chinese and American researchers who are innocent and Chinese scholars say this has created a climate of fear. The new red scare even this hour on point China the United States espionage real and imagined and with me from San Francisco is Peter Waldman these investigative reporter for Bloomberg News and he's published a series of stories called the China scare. You can find a link to his reporting on our website On Point Radio DOT ORG computer. Welcome to one point. Thank you Robert and before you talk with us about your reporting I'd like us all to hear what. Fbi Director Christopher Wray said last April to the council on Foreign Relations when he offered his assessment of the intelligence threat that China poses for the US. China has pioneered a societal approach to stealing innovation in any way it can from a wide array of businesses universities and organizations. They're doing it. Through Chinese intelligence services. There stayed on enterprises through extensively private companies through graduate students and researchers through a variety of actors. All working on behalf of China put plainly China's scenes determined to steal. Its way up the economic ladder at our expense key phrase for our purposes here this hour in that statement through graduate students and researchers Peter Waldman before we hear about would you report on as abuses By the FBI and other agencies do you accept. Christopher raise assessment of the threat posed by China of course There is no denying that China Harbors what one might describe as an avaricious for American technology and capabilities Intellectual property proprietary information of all kinds. It's a very large country. That has outsized ambition so There's no denying that We have found in this country mainly through the FBI A good deal of attempt at taking American intellectual property so Let's stipulate that right up front then comes the application of Of that Policy of trying to to Crackdown on Chinese espionage. You Begin by describing the case of a woman who was a cancer researcher in the United States Chinese American woman. Yes Dr Chiffon Woo at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. Tell us about what about what happened. What did she do? And how did she get investigated? So we published a cover story in Bloomberg BusinessWeek Magazine last summer about a number of cases at MD Anderson Which is really an extraordinary institution in terms of researching cancer and She fung who was one of their extraordinary researchers. She is an epidemiologist Who Spent Twenty seven years there? until Last year two thousand nineteen when she was essentially Ousted sent away after A lengthy investigation that involved the FBI and included Probes of some five Important chinese-american researchers at the end of the day. Four of whom were as I say sent off. I don't want to Define that in too many legalistic terms like fired or terminated. Some of them left of their own volition but suffice it to say that Md Anderson and this investigation made it very difficult for them to stay and what was she suspected of what was what was the the claim. So the claim is that they were Undertaking arrangements in China with Chinese universities and researchers that they were not disclosing to MD Anderson or more importantly actually to the National Institutes of health. Which is the primary H- Biomedical Research Funder in the United States. This very large Part of the Federal Government that makes grants to people doing biomedical research and it requires always has by the way long predating this period That researchers disclose all of their funding and collaborations with other parties including four and collaborations and They in the course of their investigation. And when I say they it was It was first undertaken by the FBI and ultimately than with MD Anderson They found Through email contacts between she fung Wu and her collaborators and China a number of discussions Draft contracts and other situations in which she wanted to collaborate and was collaborating with Chinese scientists than institutions and had not disclosed that on her grant forms And so she basically was Interrogated question there were reports written up and at the end of the day it ma- they made it untenable for her to stay at MD Anderson and now she's back as the dean of A Very Large Public Health program in China so she left the country but the information that she presumably would have had access to You reported this was about the epidemic of cancer. Do I have that right yeah? So here's where the hard part of all this comes in. Which is we're essentially talking about what we've always referred to as basic research or In in this case epidemiology which essentially looks for causes of cancer and the at the end of the day is is an effort to prevent cancer by warning people about not eating. Let's say barbecued foods and not eating certain other substances or exposing yourself to air pollutants and other things. It's preventative part of the Biomedical Research. Enterprise and she was a specialist at this person who amassed extraordinary amounts of data both from. Us patients In the south what out in the southern part of the country through MD Anderson's patients shed so to speak where all there folks are coming from as well as Asian databases of patients there and This didn't matter in the end because This disclosure issue proved so important in this sort of heightened political rivalry or international economic rivalry with China. That the goalposts are sort of changing. And that's really a key thing to keep in mind after years of promoting collaborative research in China the and others are essentially discouraging it but to be in possession of The most up-to-date information the most up-to-date me logical information about cancer May Give One nation and edge up in the war against cancer but We're not talking about designing Warheads or something like that would obviously be very concerned about if that information were being passed to another power basic science cancer prevention. In this case Is Not generally thought of as a proprietary piece of information or technology. But I think My interview with The principal deputy director of the NIH A JAL name Lawrence. Tailback really spelled it out. I mean Mr Dr Taeb told me that even something that is in the fundamental research space an all add epidemiology to that And Dr Tailback says that's absolutely not classified has an intrinsic value. He called these things pre patented material That are the antecedents to creating intellectual property. So what he's basically saying is there as I said he's really expanded. The scope of what we think of is protected and proprietary information and is saying we shouldn't be helping China at all In essence in pursuing that agenda by cracking down on were always considered administrative or technical violations in these disclosure requirements. So that's sort of what's going on here is your reporting which is very detailed about Several cases are they about several rotten apples in a very large barrel. Or do you think that What you're finding is a trend which is overly aggressive investigation of Chinese American or Chinese citizens who are doing research in the United States That's a hard question to answer. Because obviously we're not privy to the files of literally tens and tens of thousands of Of people of Chinese ancestry who are doing science in the United States parenthetically? We rely on these people in our universities and companies to do much of the great technological and scientific work. That's going on there so it's hard to say I can only say that In in these cases that have emerged as many questions arise concerning how they were how they were targeted why the charges which in several cases are felonies Have been escalated to the point where they have and specifically in the MD Anderson case real questions of potential racial profiling. Because in that case you actually had a situation where. Md Anderson handed over some twenty. Three computer accounts of its employees Without a subpoena to the FBI and It was in the context of China. These China investigations when I asked them. We're all of those people Of Chinese ancestry they would not answer the question so presumably they were. Although I will say that is a presumption and the question of racial profiling becomes very important here. That's an element in your reporting and whether it is fair or not. It's widely perceived. You say among Chinese researchers in America. Yeah they there is a kind of siege mentality. Frankly everywhere in the United States among Chinese Americans In science at the moment because of these high profile cases. It's something that A legal scholar and lawyer named Andrew. Kim Who wrote a long paper about espionage cases involving People with Chinese names Because no one can be sure. They're they're Chinese but anyway he he had some very interesting results. We're going to hear the story of one researcher one professor of physics who actually experienced a being investigated. We're talking about the government's fears of wholesale espionage by Chinese on American campuses Fears that American that the FBI and other agencies may be getting paranoid about going after the innocent. I'm Robert Siegel and this is on point planet. Money is the mountaineer economist behind the carbon tax. It's the baseball player. Trying to get a pay. Raise the prisoner building a blockchain out of cans of mackerel planet money from NPR. Listen now this is on point. I'm Robert Siegel and I've been talking with investigative reporter. Peter Waldman of Bloomberg News about his series called the China's scare which finds that over his L. S. F. B. I. Another law enforcement may be creating a climate of fear on. Us campuses arresting innocent scholars sharing their research legitimately with Chinese scholars in their effort to ferret out. Those who really are sharing sensitive technologies but the government of China and Peter. Let introduce a researcher. Now who is a naturalized citizen of the United States who faced the wrath of the FBI and his own story has his own story to tell a Xiaojing? She is a professor of physics at Temple University and he joins us from Philadelphia professor. She a welcome to our program on point. Thank you for having me over. Tell us what you what you were investigated for exactly I also charged for arriving Made a device that was covered. I A non disclosure agreement with A. US Company for a Chinese collaborator which is totally false. The device in question I gather is it's called a pocket warmer Pocket Heater Puckett Heater. It's not we're not talking about something to put in your pocket in. The winter was just as a sophisticated electronic device. No it's a it's a device that we use to make us in materials and the accusation. Was that you shared information about that. Device with a researcher in China that is cracked But the fact is that. I've never shared any information of the H- Takahiro. Was Anybody in China. Did you share information about something More innocent with researchers in China Well you know I collaborate with scientists all over the world including those from China and In the collaboration with Chinese leaders all collaborators around the world They're all based on the Property Stir results and the mostly on my own published the results in two thousand fifteen. You're arrested yes I love and what happened. What was that like well? You know it was in the early morning in May and I was woken up by a loud knock on my door The party was so hard into urgent rental open door without even fully dressed and I saw many people outside of my house and Some or armed and some heart battering Ram ready to take on my door and so An FBI agent is my name and announce that I was arrested and another one turned me around it against the wall. Put the handcuffs on me so I absolutely no idea why this was happening. And they wouldn't tell me and I'm You know the armed agents in bullet vast Rushing to my house running around and yelling. Fbi they point their guns To my wife and daughters and one by one. They walked out of the bathroom with their hands. Raised you know I was really very worried that this must be very frightening to them and the only thing I can I think of was that don't do anything that will lead them shoot us. You know when when they took me away from my House. I had absolutely no idea one I would See my family okay. You know I grew up during Cultural Revolution in China. In bed time It was not unusual for people being taken away and could not see their families forever round on time. Five months after your arrest By the FBI. Charges were dropped Actually last time for less than four months after after the rest and you're now suing the FBI. Gather Yes I am. How did how charges dropped did you. Did you have a a an attorney? Made a good case against what they claimed her. Did you interrogation go badly by their standpoint? What happened My actually my my. My lawyers contacted expert in my field And gave them all my email communications with my Chinese clever eaters Because you know there were four Confidence me based on four emails. I sent to my colleagues in China and so my lawyer gave them all my emails and awesome to see whether there's any evidence that I shared the poppy either information with people in China and also he contacted a event or one of the inventors off the pocket heater and all of them that that there was no evidence that I share any information about a heater from the communication that I had always Chinese colleagues in I I I saw reported Perhaps by By Peter Waldman that The device that you did share information about and pocket heater were comparing toaster with a microwave oven. They both. They both may achieve a similar result. But they're very different technologies that there will be a good analogy. So I I WANNA ask. Peter Waldman a question here We have law enforcement Making making judgments of about science and technology that obviously you have to be pretty sophisticated to know what's a pocket heater in. And what isn't a pocket heater? Who's doing that work guard do we have droves of people at the FBI who really know their way around All all the frontiers of cutting edge technology. So I think Dr. She's cases a classic one where it shows that we do not have that expertise within the FBI and of course FBI's resourceful and tries to get consultation in understand these technologies but depending on the amount of pressure depending on the intensity of a dragnet as we're in now They will or won't take the proper steps to really understand what they're doing and when we opened the show by listening to Director of the FBI explain what he believes is the urgency the the intensity of the threat were now under from China. And you can imagine the ripple effects that causes agitation that causes throughout federal law enforcement agencies and the F. B. I. has something called the China initiative which allowed was was started by attorney general sessions after doctor sees experience. But it pretty well encapsulates. What's going on here? Which is that. There is a real intense focus on Potential Chinese espionage and lots of allegations and accusations out there that that just don't add up and I there's there's data behind us we can see these trends develop I was starting to mention Andrew. Kim's work In that paper he showed that from ninety seven to own nine Seventeen percent of all espionage cases broad in the US involved People with Chinese names That rate tripled to fifty two percent between two thousand and nine in two thousand fifteen. So you can just see the focus on Chinese there More importantly twenty percent of those people accused in that period. Who had Chinese names had no serious convictions? Versus ten percent of non Chinese name so that led to Andrew. Kim Sort of coining this term researching while Asian which is sort of akin to driving while african-american. I'd like to ask professor she about this. Because among people who have been arrested one notable person was Dr Charles Lieber. Who is the chair of Harvard University Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology He was arrested at his Harbored office and then placed on administrative leave He was one of those who is charged with lying about ties to China and They were accused of trying to help. The Chinese government does the fact that you don't have to be of Chinese Background to be arrested. Does it lessen your sense that this is that there's a a racial dimension to this or do you see it that way well actually After my case I learnt Several things first of all Won The trash. Somebody of stealing secrets for China. It is not always. It's not necessarily two like in my case all right. The second thing is that the training assigned is being treated unfairly. And the third point I would say is that these people these VR agency agency. Mike they had absolutely no idea how academia research is done and they did. What they are doing is threatening the open environment insomnia research. You know Peter mentioned this We're talking. I'm not talking about classified information. I'm not talking about sensitive information. I'm talking about the fundamental research and The the government policy that governs. This is their so called an SDS at nine. That's reassured by president. Reagan that sounds. The fundamental research should be unrestricted to the To the extent possible to So we we. Are you know these people are trying to crack down on the research which is actually hurting American leadership in science and technology? But let's say let's say they're that they're wrong about where they've drawn. The line on which research should or should not be shared with with China's. Would you dispute the argument that Fbi Director Ray made the statement. He made that. There is a strong Chinese campaign to steal intellectual property from from wherever they can in the United States including university laboratories I can say is I recommend you to read Jason report which is released commissioned by the National Science Foundation. And that the examining the fact that you know these elites groups of You know scientists they have access to all the Classified information from the intelligence community after they studied this they were saying that the scale and the scope off the far influence is poorly defined. And this kind of disk failure to disclose and and so should be investigated and adjudicated by the Funding Agency and universities Asti presumptive violations of researching parody with the consequences similar to those currently in price for scientific misconduct not by FBI. Not Throwing jail. You know when I hear when I hurt the the pace of you know Charles Lever. I want to tell people I wanted to tell people. One child's Lieber. It is presumed innocent until proven guilty to from my own personal experience while the government charges is non necessarily true listeners. Have you experienced or seen law enforcement on your campus Chinese and Chinese American scholars arrested or accused of spying for China? Do you think this could become a new kind of program against legitimate scholars doing legitimate work? Peter Waldman I mentioned the case of of Dr. Charles Lieber Chinese national who was arrested at the same time had neglected to disclose On his On his immigration visa application. That he happened to be a lieutenant in the Chinese military This is what the FBI says That he had not disclosed that That would you agree that. That's that's a pretty serious lapse if you're going to be doing a sensitive research first of all let's completely separate the two cases you just mentioned okay and. I think there was some intentional effort in Boston when US Attorney Office the process federal prosecutors indicted. Charles Lieber To Mix those They there was some reference to that. They were related cases They are absolutely disconnected cases. Charles Lieber and the two other individuals of Chinese ancestry who were arrested and announced. They weren't arrested that day. But the their indictments were announced that day they have nothing to do with each other including that person who failed to disclose their military tie and it was curious that the US Attorney's office in Boston would have connected them that day As far as Charles Lieber goes on your question about does it. Sort of mitigate concerns that now we have a non Chinese person arrested on very similar charges. I think it it is important for for our law enforcement to show that this is not an a total exercising in racial profiling and that they are concerned with anybody Not disclosing their Chinese ties. so to that extent it is important There's a whole another dimension to the Charles Lieber case which is that. He was a quite extraordinary example of someone who worked with Chinese in in and and showed in his lab illustrated the importance of Chinese brain power in the United States because he completely relied on Chinese post Docs and PhD students in his laboratory to do extraordinary research. That's Peter Waldman of Bloomberg News Published a series of stories called the China's scare And we're talking about that subject with him Professor She Is there now a chilling effect on university researchers when it comes to collaborating with scientists in in China on any on any subject That one could imagine any scientific subject anyway yesterday so I I know many people who stop their collaboration with colleagues in China and there are some university. Advise them to stop this kind of connection. Well when you were arrested. Did your university a come to your support Did IT Provide any legal assistance. did testify on your behalf. No University did not provide any legal assistance and I have to find myself and to pay my lawyer myself. How much did you end up paying lawyer? In this case I am not paying more than Two hundred twenty thousand dollars and we consider ourselves to be lucky because he was only four months. I mean if you if you had one to try it will be a lot more the case against you as you described Fell apart in a few months had the the the FBI gone to the Pfizer Court In order to get permission to surveilled and ultimately to arrest you yes they told us so They have Used the size of Lawrence to Do the The lack of electronic and physical surveillance on me and presumably the judge in the court would have seen so we had to see some evidence or these claim that there is some evidence before granting that surveillance the the The okay for that you village you know I. I have no way of knowing but that. But that's what you were told. Peter Waldman I asked you earlier about whether the F. B. I. Has the experience to evaluate of these cases where there has the knowledge to evaluate these cases There's the Pfizer Court. Have the ability to evaluate case device accord. Which has a remarkable rate of approving government requests for surveillance Well I guess it depends on what expertise the prosecutors bring to it when it's making when they're making the case Fis as a is a problematic situation all on itself and I note that in Dr She's the lawsuit against the government in his case The American Civil Liberties Union has joined that case focused on just this point that there may have been what we would consider unwarranted or with You know surveillance without a warrant for an American citizen in this case and I know they're very concerned with that. The case that we're talking about that of professor she from Temple University That was over very quickly with anybody else. Temple arrested In in case you the only the only the only one and Well we'll have more questions for you a little bit later. We're talking about the FBI's response to fears of Chinese espionage An American laboratories in American laboratories on American campuses She I'm sorry Zhaojing. She is a professor of physics at Temple University and he joined us from Philadelphia professor. She thanks for your time today. Thank you and this is on point. Let me tell you about up. I the podcast from NPR news. It's short ten or twelve minutes. It's a way to guide you through the news. You need to start your day all the people from NPR. Come together to bring you the most essential news in an overwhelming news environment. Listen to up I every morning from. Npr news this is on point. I'm Robert Siegel and we're talking about China's broad program to acquire American know how insensitive technologies by appealing to or pressuring ethnic Chinese academics and fears that they may be going too far the FBI. That is interesting. The wrong people on the basis of racial profiling. My guest is Peter. Waldman investigative reporter for Bloomberg News published a series of stories on what he says has been F. B. I. overreach on American campuses. Add like to bring in another voice here joining us from Stanford California is Larry Diamond. He's a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and he was co chair of a two thousand nineteen study of Chinese influence campaigns and espionage American campuses and he co edited the final report which was titled China's influence and American interests promoting constructive. Vigilance Larry Welcome to one point. Thank you nice to be with you. you've been listening to Peter. Waldman has said to it to professor. She has said Do do you agree with their concerns. Well I I certainly am concerned and we warned about this in our report That we need to be very careful. We need to be very other than spaced and we need to absolutely avoid ethnic profiling My heart goes out to professor. She two hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money for you. Know any ordinary academic And that doesn't begin to grasp the psychological distress they Exhibit they experienced but Robert. There's another side to this story. And that is all of the valid cases that are are being produced and The very disturbing charges that are coming forward and it's not just about professors who Have been here for some time in the United States And the issues that need to be raised about transparency because there is significant evidence that many of them are not just kind of forgetting to disclose something but in a number of cases are engaged in. You know I'd say energetic efforts at deliberate odds few station of their ties to Foreign Research Collaboration. It's also The graduate students and researchers that was Republic of China is sending in here who are often failing to disclose their ties. And if I may I would urge people to not only focus on the case of Professor Lieber who is alleged. Let's keep in mind. He is as the right to be presumed innocent until the courts adjudicate on this but is alleged to have not disclosed The money he was receiving I think it was fifty thousand dollars a month for a period of time for his research collaboration in China which is also a lot of money and adds up to a lot more than what professor she had to mobilize for his legal defense But in addition there were two other individuals From China who were charge? I should say one of them one of them. I had the the wrong gender on when I when I am alluded to young. Chechnya I guess guys go ahead She is a lieutenant in the People's Liberation Army who failed to disclose that on her visa and the the third one was a cancer researcher again in Boston. At Beth Israel deaconess neck and medical center. Who's accused of trying to smuggle twenty-one vials of biological research in his sock in his luggage back to China so I mean there is another side to this and I would urge all of your listeners at some point to look at an Australian Research report from last year called picking flowers making honey that describes the elaborate efforts of the People's Republic of China to penetrate the research institutes of Australia with large numbers of researchers from research institutes and universities connected explicitly to the Chinese military who were Failing to disclose their ties To the military industrial apparatus before we hear from some of our listeners. I I want to hear from Peter Waldman and hear Peter. Hear your response To what Larry Diamond has just said so? I think that Larry makes very valid points about the number of cases that do show disturbing things I think it's also important to point out that in characterizing some of those cases particularly in the very report that he at the Hoover Institution and the Asia Society published. In late two thousand eighteen There are a number of characterizations errors and mistakes that call into question. The sort of overall vigor and in intent of such a report and Larry Just frankly made one right here when he referred to Charles Lever as having received fifty thousand dollars a month Which is of course. Absolutely not even in the indictment is all. The indictment says is that there were contracts that offered him that amount. The government didn't say whether he received anything close to that in fact he didn't even specify some so i. I think the facts each of these cases are very important Right there is an error and there were errors in in hoover report so wow Larry and several people on Panel that produce our report Point out extremely important things to be wary of Has Does Director Ray? We need to get the facts right before we are tarring and feathering five million American. I need an Larry Diamond would you? Would you concede Erin what you said or did you? Would you stand by? Uh Look? Peter has been looking at the individual cases more than I have. I'm going on a media report I read so I accept what he said about. Professor Lieber We made the same point about not Stereotyping or making judgments on Chinese Americans or on Chinese Graduate students who are coming here but the fact is there is massive documentation of large-scale theft of intellectual property in the United States by large number of means and what Peter has not given adequate attention to. And what has not yet been aired? I think adequately On your show yet. Robert is that much of this technology theft even if it's basic research can be You know plowed back into the military modernization of the People's Liberation Army and is being done so and it is part of China's deliberately Articulated strategy to do so and then all of the genetic data that they're trying to capture through a a number of means many of the past Sala g analyses that are being done in American hospitals. Now are being sent to China for Analysis. Many of the genetic testing. That's that people are doing on themselves to find out. Their ancestry is being sent to China. Do we know anything about? China is storing that data. Even if it's an anonymous to assemble genetic profiles that the American population I can tell you that national security planners in the United States are worried that a lot of this data could be assembled into the development of biological weaponry. Let's hear from from the audience. Here Chris in Oriole evolved places Oriental North Carolina is on the line. Chris what do you say Hello I think that perhaps an easy approach to this to get rid of the racial profiling etc would be put clauses in the contracts for any foreign nationals coming over to the United States that gives us certain rights to look into their communications and so forth. Because when I sign an employment contract I signed nine. Complete non compete clauses and other things unique to the level of the job. And what I'm doing to have a security clearance. I have to do all kinds of things anything. Whether it's a graduate student or professor researcher even down into some of our substantial industries like aerospace and chemicals pharmaceuticals. They should all have to sign something that says we release and give up the right. The Americans have to inspection without court order in to be fired if we find out we. We've lied or we talk some sort of collusion with our home. And they're saying that if I were a foreign national doing scientific research in the US. I should sign over permission to survey me Without a without a subpoena not necessarily permission to survey all you but Not necessarily having to go to the hoops. If you if your employer feels the reason check you out. It shouldn't have to go through The channels that would happen for normal. Okay Chris Thanks Peter Waldman a does that sound plausible to you or or or completely out of bounds. Well employers do not have to go through those hoops as it stands today because all of us Who used communications whether they're online accounts or cell phones or other things provided by our employer Including universities you know are at the subject of of Surveillance. I mean they can look at our stuff which is how a lot of this Go you know a lot of this stuff gets ferreted out importantly I do want to say one thing about Larry in his effort at Hoover. Which is they are very focused their on not wanting to profile. And so I wanNA grant them that that that that there is a real concern. And in fact I think that the Larry's report is at the forefront of a really important question here which is how do we both secure proprietary information and make sure that it doesn't fall into the hands of the Chinese military while not succumbing to a kind of McCarthy aesthetic impulse and it's not easy I mean we are certainly in a situation now where you have China under President Xi Jinping overreaching on on many many fronts including this one The estimate? How do we react? We don't want to overreact. I think Susan Shirk of Peter. Were having some problems with your with your phone line which we should while we see if we can repair that. I want to hear what Larry Diamond's colleague On that report or Orrville Shell of the Asia Society had to say one year ago When he tried to assure Chinese Chinese American scholars efforts to tempt on Chinese espionage a would not turn into a witch hunt based on their ethnicity. Please believe US one your side. We don't want to see a pogrom. I live in a household that speaks Chinese. My kids speaks Chinese. My my wife is Chinese. I WANNA see us go where you're afraid we're going to go but this is a challenge. America has to confront every time it faces up to a challenge. Can it be judicious enough and temporary to answer? Problem without demonizing people Larry Diamond. That's that's the sentiment that you were. Also expressing has the reaction from the Chinese American scientific community Been positive for suspicious well We have engaged leaders of the Chinese American community. I'm not Kinda give you chapter and verse but We've had some significant discussions and we welcome more Orville is not the only member of our working group. There are several Who has significant Chinese family ties and I think an way to look at this conversation. We're having this hour. Robert is the Peter and I are focused on frankly different angles of obviously and interconnected problem. If you look at it from the I'd say quite legitimate and fair investigative Angler perspective that. Peter is pursuing There are really serious problems. And we've gotten it wrong or clumsily and abusively so many times in our history that we can't dismiss these concerns on the other hand if you start from the orientation we have which Peter acknowledged. We do have serious problems. We're facing an adversary That doesn't play by any of these rules. I mean look what happens to anyone who articulates any criticism of Xi Jinping in China there Treated a whole lot worse than our professor. She was in the United States. Who was on your show so we have to rise to a higher standard. It's Absolutely incumbent on who we are as a country and we won't be able to sustain this effectively if we Have a low tolerance for for abusive and ethnocentric behavior by law enforcement or research institutions or whomever. Peter Wildman and I. I should note here that in in the day's news some Wall Street Journal reporters. We've just expelled from China. And I gotTa that came after an article that was written that was critical of a relation of a sheet of of Sheesh of president. She Peter. What's your response to Larry Diamonds analysis of the difference between the two of you and your perspectives. I think he's spot on I'm not sure what came through before when I was speaking but we have a situation where China is overreaching and we just have to be very careful about overreacting and Susan Shirk of University of California at San Diego who was on Larry's panel That produced that report at Hoover Pointed out in her dissent because she was uncomfortable With with with what they with where they came out on this that That right now. She believed the harm. We could cause American society overreacting to this. China threat was actually greater than that caused by Chinese influencing influence seeking itself influence. Can being a little bit different than what we're talking about but the point is it's a really tough balancing act and I do believe Larry and Oroville Attempted that in their report. I just think it's a really dicey situation. When you've got five million people of a particular ethnic ancestry in the living in citizens in the United States many of whom are engaged in science and technology and the suspicion level rises to wear it has and Larry how many graduate students are there from China and the United States. Doing whatever. There's I don't know about three hundred and fifty thousand Chinese students in the United States. The majority of them are undergraduates. I can tell you how many graduates there are. It would be in the tens of thousands. Well thank you very much if we're talking with this Larry. Diamond is a senior fellow at Stanford. University's Hoover Institution he joined us from Stanford California and again. Thanks for your time and death. Peter Waldman is an investigative reporter for Bloomberg News. You can find links to his stories on our website On Point Org Peter thanks to you and thanks for bearing up with the phone problems there so much Robert and You all can continue the conversation and get the point podcast at our website on point radio dot org and you can follow us on twitter and find us on facebook at on point. Radio on point is produced by Anna Bowman. Justin down my Lena. Mata Brittany nuts Stephanie O. Could Saunas West Martin? Hillary mcquilken James Ross Story. Shammar Grace Tanner at an waller and Sydney Wertheim with help from Liam Knocks Caroline love and Bradley Noble. I'm Robert Siegel and this is on point.

China United States Peter Waldman FBI Robert Siegel Peter professor Bloomberg News investigative reporter Larry Diamond NPR Director researcher Md Anderson Larry BOSTON Andrew Hoover Institution Hoover
003 - Sacramento Delta

Asian Americana

39:04 min | 4 years ago

003 - Sacramento Delta

"The entire central valley the reason it's even possible is because china america's reclaimed that land a few months ago. I was chatting with my friend connie. I'm connie low and i'm currently and b._p._h. Fellow with the centers for disease control and prevention in atlanta georgia and i defy as chinese and cambodian end our conversation soon turned a chinese american history as they tend to and she showed showed me something. I didn't know before about the role of chinese americans in shaping california. I love the history of chinese americans in the u._s. And in california in particular because i'm a california girl right we think of chinese american history as like they came for the gold rush and they mined gold and they built the transcontinental railroad and that's kind of what we think about these people just like disappear from history. Even though they disappeared from the history books pennies people built the delta and basically made the agricultural industry in california possible. We don't think about it right eight. We always say with pay lip service to the fact that you know. Asian american history is part of the fabric of american history but how many of us actually think about the way in which it's actually part of our actual physical landscape today we explore how chinese americans develop the sacramento delta their role in shaping california nia and we visit a town created entirely by and for chinese americans. This is asian americana. We're still yeah talk to learn more about chinese americans in nineteenth century california. I i spoke with historical archaeologist and professor keleaf all my name's kelly fong a am an asian american scholar and historical archaeologist currently teaching at california california state university northridge native american studies but i have also taught at u._c._l._a. Both in asia american cities and neither i let's clarify where we're talking about. When we refer to the sacramento delta so this grenell delta is roughly a chai angular region north east of san francisco bay area. It's roughly the between sacramento city <hes> concord in the eastern barrier and then also stocked it and so it's the river area between the sacramento san joaquin verse adverse chinese immigrants are coming to america during the nineteenth century with immigration growing rapidly in the eighteen fifties until the eighteen eighties for many places in china as far as where in china their families came from it was very diverse so you have people representing som- yup district say up district and also people coming. I'm from jones on this is where they were predominantly coming from throughout california and they did also end up in the delta while many chinese americans worked in gold rush towns are on the railroad. Another big project would also draw chinese-american labor the development of the sacramento delta. Let's go to connie to explain one out of things things about that. Region is that the sacramento san joaquin valley is not actually a proper delta so if you think about the river that comes down and then it gets broader and it spreads out into a delta shade if basically gets bigger and broader as it goes out to the ocean right the sacramento san joaquin delta is actually in birded delta where it starts out brought into gets narrower as it goes out to see and that is really unique because of that inverted voted structure of the delta when it got narrower as it went out to see it would flood all the time when the rains got heavy in the snow melted and came down off the mountain and it was just on arable is like completely not able to support agriculture because of the flooding it was literally a marsh and a peat bog so the sacramento delta or at this point the sacramento flooded. Marsh and peat bog was in need of some major work. The land was to be usable at all enter congress us so congress passes the federal swamp and overflow act in eighteen fifties and that opens the door for reclamation projects in general and so this is providing funding to help landowners basically reclaim their land from the river so this included building levees building ditches joining the boggs and pete and turning this land that originally was swamp or a flooding delta area into agricultural land or something that was considered more useful federal funding became available for land element but reclaiming the delta was still going to be a very labor intensive process. Those projects admitted workers and lots of them. Chinese americans were recruited as laborers to start building the levees particularly by eighteen fifties really exploding by the eighteen sixties in the eighteen seventies and so chinese laborers got recruited <hes> some of them coming from you know railroad jobs were they proven themselves to be hard workers willing to work for cheap wages wages under really poor conditions and doing this work in the delta so they were based deep in a bog trying to build levees create the judge ditches and essentially turned the flooding delta into something that was for agriculture chinese american workers weren't the only source of labor but grew to become the main workforce force for the project just like with a lot of other infrastructure construction in california employers are trying different sources of labor indigenous forms of labor who were increasingly and getting decimated by disease by being forcibly removed from their land. They tried employing irish levers just like with the railroads who didn't want want to be in the swamp spe- subjected to malaria possibly get washed away by the river and so on and so forth those chinese workers may have owed their skill and developing the land to a geographic trait shared by their old homeland and their new home in california county explains other than the sacramento and san joaquin valley the only the other major region in the entire world where that inverted delta is a geographic feature is the pearl river delta of guangdong long. Don't china. It's a huge win. Incidence right that you had the influx of people coming into california and just the opportune time who are accustomed to working and this type of land despite this familiarity they still have to figure out ways to do the work by hand back to kelly chinese labourers were the ones who built a lot of of those levees before you could have some sort of mechanized way of constructing levies and so everything was done by hand. They were cutting the pete by hand. They had to carry them. I'm with wheelbarrows because you couldn't use horses because the horses would sink into the pete and they were innovative in finding ways to work with these conditions one such innovation evasion was the tool shoe. Here's con again. The tool shoe was actually invented by these people on. We can't attribute it to anybody because we don't know like you know these were nameless nameless faceless laborers right but it was incredible horse shoe that was developed those effectively a snowshoe that redistributed the horse's weight so so they could work this marshy land eventually the deltas were transformed into usable land and that transformation made the area very profitable for the landowners the way hey that the delta developed economically a lot of people got incredibly rich so because the swampy area because it had great potential but as a swamp was a very useful to most people people are able to acquire very large track selanne very little money and then reclamation process we're able to you have property that was suddenly very valuable worth far more than they bought it for and because they own such huge parcels of land it really facilitated the development element of large-scale commercial agriculture in california though the workers didn't get to share in that wealth their labor was instrumental again without the help of chinese american laborers burgers. It may not have gotten done or in the same sort of timely manner. The newly developed land quickly went to use immediately after the levees rebuilt small all delta towns started forming delta towns such as i'll tune cortlandt and walnut grove soon sprung up and many of the chinese american workers stuck around within these delta towns chinese chinese americans who were already there possibly because they helped with the levees and helped initially start agriculture they started forming small chinatown's towns almost immediately after those towns or formed bills chinatowns became a new home for chinese americans but life in them was difficult. These chinatowns were generally on the the margins of the rest of town. You had very racially segregated towns. That's so you have towns that. Maybe had a thousand people in them but they were incredibly credibly racially segregated so chinatowns are on the margins of town chinatown in britain originally was on offer jackson flew road at burned in nineteen fifteen that area that chinatown was on became desirable because came close to city hall as the town grew and chinatown wasn't allowed to be built and had to be move to another margin of town despite being so small. These towns were divided into white and segregated sections. One of the things that i think makes these towns unique take is that almost form of jim crow segregation that's happening in california where you have what and this is the term that we were told hold by oral history interviewee that chinese americans and people living in chinatown were not allowed to go to white town and so they call it white town walnut grove is racially segregated gated in separated by the river so the white part of town was on the one side of the river and the chinatown in japan town part of talent was on the other side of the river. Some of the places even had sundown laws that is after after sundown chinese. Americans couldn't be in the white part of town in alton. They can only go to white town if they were going to the post office. Even the schools were segregated. You had a very segregated part of town that included a second oriental school for the children. That would have been right next to the white school. White families didn't want their children going to school with age american children from oral histories. We heard that their cafeteria wasn't as good. Their food wasn't as good their playground is good and it was like a treat when they got to go to the white cafeteria because it was like that much better from a child's perspective than than on the one they were given these towns weren't home to chinese americans they were for everyone not considered white chinatown in these areas were for everyone who was not included in white town to live that doesn't get reflected in how we just call it. A tiny town chinatown was called chinatown in name but in reality he was a multi-racial space and so you had japanese americans living there as well. You had portuguese americans living there as well particularly those coming from the azores. I yeah talion americans. A handful of african americans show up on the the census as well so basically everyone that was not considered how united states defined white right at the time then you had to live in this racially segregated part of town despite the discrimination and economic hardships chinese americans learned to make do and survive folks would ten small small plots or grow community gardens for food or to cook and sell the farm workers in supplement their incomes they also managed to form active communities here kelly describes the role of the being tong built and so the being calm tongue was obviously a tongue so community organization that has all of these negative connotations connotations about being basically like underground triad or society involved in gambling prostitution and opium and everything thing like that as a community organization though the tong served as that physical location where people can meet people could worship of <hes> a shrine that they had on the top floor of the building. The tongue was there to help solve disputes if there are any disputes going on amongst the community in town and what also makes they've been calling tongue building in alan unique is that the bottom floor of tong was the chinese language school for all the children nearby. One sort of community resourcefulness resourceless is of a quote unquote limo service in the delta. Someone established in court land was chancy to in courtly chinatown. He decided that he was going going to drive a vehicle from court lynn through all the delta towns to san francisco daily. This is starting in the nineteen twenties. I think this this is a full day. Trip ray cars go very fast. The roads aren't very good and so this is a really clear example of how these communities were by no means isolated is that he would transport burpee people or if they wanted to goods from san francisco chinatown backup to the delta and so that limos eva's went back back and forth every day between the delta and san francisco one of the most notable towns in the sacramento delta is lock which has the distinction of being a town founded by four chinese americans americans lock was seen as the all american chinatown because it was established by china's americans the people who lived in lock most of them originally came from walnut grove. The stories about the formation of lock and coming on walnut grove is there was a fire and what happened after the fire is out there were squabbles between titus americans from different districts six and so people decided to get up and move down the river and form lock most of the chinatown's along delta comprised primarily twice on speaking chinese as from the same region but the area also had a sizable community from the don region its members of that community that went onto form lock in one thousand nine fifteen california's alien liam landlo- nineteen thirteen prevent chinese immigrants from owning land but the town's founders were able to lisa land from its owner george lock lock still stands today and has been named a national channel historical landmark and knowing that i couldn't resist the urge to drive up and see this piece of asia americana for myself ca-car dr phil. They kissed during my visit. I spoke with eileen leong a dose into the lock museum. She shared a bit more about locks unique chinese american heritage. My name is eileen. Leone lauck is recognized <music> as a chinese town which is a town built by the chinese for the chinese people. A chinatown on the other hand is usually usually just a select community within a larger metropolis however when you consider lock in nineteen twenty two in one thousand nine hundred seventy s almost all the residents here worked chinese people and they chose to to live here because because they felt comfortable with their countrymen with speaking the same dialect which having the same culture stewart whoa from the foundation soon join me to take me on a tour of the town hi my name is stuart wall and i am currently the chairman of the lockdown dacian. Our foundation is a five a one c three nonprofit whose mission is educating. The public on culture in history of the town of flock lock is a rather young town. Actually we just celebrated are centennial last year so it was founded in nineteen fifteen where a number of the townside here on the delta go back into the eighteen fifties and sixties most close to the chinese that came here to lock or from <hes> canton mcguire dong province and specifically the pearl river delta. Ah mostly sean san dialect folks here walking through the town. There's so much to take in. Maybe especially because of how small it is. There's there's two streets in the town but even that description seems like an exaggeration rather. There's a front section with a handful of businesses galleries and old buildings converted into historical norcal preservation museums and back section of town with a dozen scattered homes and several large produce gardens to me. Exploring lock was like taking a trip into my romanticized version of an old frontier town but through the vision of early chinese america luck schoolhouse gave me that feeling like none other. It's just a single a large room surrounded by walls of thin whitewash vertical wooden panels the same kind of walls all over town. Four rows of worn wooden desks were bolted into dark iron tracks tracks each one complete with an inkwell inundation in the corner. It felt straight out of little house on the prairie accepts. It was a chinese school a precursor today a saturday schools. This was built originally this jochen school as a community meeting spot they'd already constructed directed the gambling halls in the bars and the restaurants in the shops and the townspeople wanted to place where they could come and in meet and talk and it carried on as such for a half dozen years or so but then the chinese immigrants wanted and their children to retain their heritage and culture and writing skills and they opened up a small school here here there weren't as many children back then as actually right before <hes> the war world war two but the children went to the traditional public schools that were out here they were all segregated of course at that time and then they would come here after school and study their <hes> <hes> chinese done on reading and writing skills were honed but bay studied their history and culture there are many children second generation and chinese kids who are now adults they went through the school and they would spend their whole day in public school in another four hours per day over here in the very early sixties the school closed as such and was turned into a museum in the early seventies the other place i gave the echoes of a western frontier town was the dodd loy gambling hall as i walked on its unlevel floor. I could smell the age of the room. It was dimly lit from the warm glow of a a few hanging incandescent bulbs third preserve displays of lotteries cards towel games here. We're entering the deloitte gambling. All the the dollar gambling hall was built by lock founder. Li bing almost immediately. Even though the building had a little bit of that dente feis five there was something about getting a glimpse into a place where these immigrants could find some refuge. Let me take you upstairs and show you place that i think is a little more representative of where a chinese bachelor would stay a room like this. It'd be much more common and typical back than for two dollars and fifty cents a month and you had your bed a table and that was it almost all the places where people would rent and stay were upstairs so it was extremely hot the summer and actually got cold in the winter. Most of the men here in town were bachelor is they had the dream of ceann gloom son meaning gold mountain it would come here to the west particularly california to make their money their fortune and either go back to china and mary or send for their wives and families to come join 'em here and like most immigrant experiences the involve struggle and sometimes failure and there was the law here in town but all those curated displays felt like a disconnected presentation of a long gone past and you look deeper for connection to a tenacious continuous heritage heritage and legacy. I had to leave locks museums and look to its guarded and look how we look ooh back and say look. We have our lock memorial garden. In one thousand nine hundred eighty three lock had a fire higher and this building was on this land burnt down so as a project for the lock foundation came in and cleaned up to land a a wonderful story of lock locals. We wanted to have a park where people could come in and sit and rest and think about what's going on and what had gone on here in unlock the lock. Memorial garden was specifically space to honor continuous history and not just a distant memory. A black granite obelisk stands in the center as a monument to the contributions of chinese. My niece americans in the delta. There's beautiful bronze relief built into the side of the monument elise maher who was actually seventeen year old high school student very very special artistic student stepped forward and said she would design this monument here and it shows the story of the chinese immigrants here in california down here at the bottom. It has a panel with lock with nobody on it signifying the future here. We have the great words of lock mother connie king who is my second mom in memory of the industrious chinese pioneers of california who strength and sacrifice help build bill the transcontinental railroad construct levees of the sacramento san joaquin delta develop agriculture in the central valley with determination perseverance the chinese billtown of lock and continue to shape california dedicated october thirteenth two thousand seven through the inspiration of connie king lock resident since nineteen forty eight in the back part of town. There was also the demonstration carton a square plot of land surrounded by wooden trellis and fencing being there were displays of various chinese fruits and vegetables grown by the community since the town's inception here we go through the gate of our chinese demonstration garden well. We wanted to demonstrate not only the vegetables but how they're grown over here. We have the very iconic vegetable fu gua- bitter bitter melon here. We have segalla. That's actually loofah. You know we have hulu gua- in english that would be called. A calabash over here is the winner balan. That's very popular. We can get yard long string beans off here. These are from the original seeds that were grown here in lac. There was something special about those seeds burden each vegetable and in the soil itself was another unbroken connection everything except the winter melon comes from seeds from the reminiscent of the chinese community that once thrived here in town those places anchoring locked to its chinese american heritage or contrast by the reality of change change. The most notable which is that the city founded by and for chinese americans barely has any chinese american residents left from day of about <music> six hundred people there are less than eighty individuals now living in lock and less than ten percent of them are chinese those descended from i'm the original lock. Residents have long left passed away leaving very few to carry on the town legacy over here is normally mrs chan's. I was hoping you can meet her. She's our oldest president. She's ninety three but getting a little hard for her to get out here and work the garden. She is the next world history that was going to be done here. In lac trying our best to get these oral histories while the oh folks is still alive in their stead. It's a mix of retirees. A couple of families and a lot of artisan craftsman craftsman. A visual artists from shanghai runs a gallery and studio in town and even my god stewart as a musician. We have seventy people living here and it's rather diverse. I there's an awful lot of artists thirteen artists living in town. We have several latino families with with a lot of kids living here. In town town retired folks we have craftsman even when it comes to visitors i felt like historical tourists like me outnumbered by the motorcyclists who frequent the town bar. This place is a motorcycle haven. It's a destination for people from all over the place for by clubs to come on down and go to this cool little little town and get a drink it out of the wasps and then had either up or down river do another destination. This is nothing here we could get fifty seventy thirty five bikes and aside from those gardens so much of every publicly accessible space seems to have been converted to museums the schoolhouse gambling hall janyang society the building the boarding house. Everything has become a space for preservation and presentation. Despite all those changes there are two experience that stand out to me and modern lock all over over town the museums and monuments books and biographies all point to essential influential figure in town the late connie king. She's gotta consider the unofficial mayor air lock she came to this town may be in her early thirties. She was born in i- alton town on. Maybe ten miles down the road and so she settled in this town with her family. She ended up taking care of a lot of the single chinese men in this town. Many of the men worked in entire life and became old could not work and connie care of them you know she bought them dinner. Sometimes she took him to doctor's appointments. You know she helped them. Jet government assistant and fill out forms is necessary. Gary shipe was a wonderful lady in love by all. The residents of this town and connie is the kind of person who if you beat once you'll remember for the rest of your life. She's wonderful. She was a magic woman with beautiful open heart that welcomed. Everybody chatted wonderful. You full gift of conversation it is she was just so positive and she loved lock and she loved tell them the story of those those who built the town and she was determined throughout her whole time here in lac she moved here in one thousand nine hundred forty seven to memorialize the chinese. He's connie dreamt of the chinese residents owning the land unlock the city that they built but had no official claim to her biggest goal was for the chinese. I need to be able to own their own land by the chinese exclusion acts kept the chinese from being able to own land and even after the end the exclusionary period the town was still the land itself was still owned by the locke family and one would pay land hanley's for their home in the nineteen seventies. The locke family decided to sell their land asian city corporation. A hong kong based developer corporation called asian city corporation action purchased the whole town and still one had to pay land lease originally intended to develop this piece of property into to a resort area but the sacramento county and the residents in this rural area oppose that kind of development so the hong kong family decided to keep it as the status quo though asian city corporation decided not to redevelop the area the land still remained out of the hands of the residence the town of lock and its surrounding areas remained a single parcel. The single parcel concept is really important because up until that time from nineteen eighteen fifteen thousand nine hundred seventy s the residents who own the buildings and went slightly could not own the land on which to building sat and therefore they really didn't have an incentive to improve the quality of the buildings they realized their tenancy was very tenuous without incentive to improve the the buildings were redeveloped land a lot of lock was allowed to fall into disrepair with its infrastructure badly in need of replacement and it was connie king who made the case for the town's residents in the late nineteen nineties sacramento county in which lock is located notified the owners of the lock property that the sewer system electrical system in the fire protection system needed upgrading because it was in danger deteriorating and and at that time the individual house owners and the property owner could not afford to upgrade the entire town's infrastructure dr in through connie's perseverance. I the town was which was going to be condemned because we had problems with fire suppression and sewer and structural electrical all that stuff <hes> she appeared before the county board of supervisors and convince him to come in and fix infrastructure second one housing redevelopment. I'm an agency stepped in the town of lock onto land from asian city development subdivided it and then the land was sold back to the owners of their buildings and finally in two thousand six the chinese could on their own land. Here is very special moment. Connie king left behind a legacy of town ownership and a celebration of locks heritage but one more legacy of hers may stand out as the most unique. This is connie's toilet garden. Connie king's garden is infamous. It's even on our walking tour to always tell the story of how when she got it first toilet <unk> was caucasian folks that were moving here into town and they didn't want the old toilet choose by the asians and we'd throw them out. She started collecting all the old toilets that were thrown out turned into planners and made a quite a beautiful display out of them. Connie king is a symbol of the town taking taking ownership of its space in past but the families a reflection of locks intersection with the modern asian american experience. I had a chat with rhys zing who has just finished high school. <hes> <hes> my name is marissa zang and i am a college student. My family came from johnson in china and they moved to san francisco and they moved here. Her family moved to lock to take over the chinese. He's restaurant taking a chance and an opportunity to support their children and determine their own path to success. I think that my mom really wanted to have a job where she was able to still work but still adjuster times and watch your kids grow up and she felt like having a restaurant was that way and opportunity came up because because the restaurant was for sale as well as she thought that it was nice to kind of get away from everything and because they were located in chinatown before she didn't wanna just always stay day in her bubble like always. I know everyone here. I know the language here. She wanted to get out of her comfort zone and she felt like maybe moving lockwood help exposes to a lot more of that ask for how orissa feels about growing up in a place like lock going up in lock has kind of been a blessing and a curse. I guess you can save because i've always been to school like much further from walk so it's like seeing all your friends live so far part kinda hard. It's not like the same experience. Everyone else has been at the same time. It's been really cool because <hes> like i said with my parents restaurant like i've been able to meet a lot of people just helping him out like tourists. Locals is really cool hearing all the background stories and and what people think of the town because living here. You don't think it's really anything that special hearing people's stories about how their grandparents grew up here or <hes> how all like they had their roots here. It's it's more i opening and so i guess growing up here. It's kind of really shaped who i am in that like i've been able to experience the world in such a small town orissa's there is now in her first year at berkley leaving lock by taking the towns experience winter in my home and my parents at the age of twenty two one in a family of eight children. I was the youngest son. Little choice was left to to me but to go too far land. Oh lord the passing of this watering chinaman and much can lock chinese. Americans have mostly left delta starting after the war. A lot of chinese americans left the delta shortly after world world war two a lot of things contributing to this some of them served in the military and then we're eligible on the g._i. Bill to go to college and so one of these children went to through college. They found jobs may be in sacramento or san francisco and they took their families with them. A lot of them realized that they had absolutely no featuring the delta the way that it was structured economically where their parents were formed on pair farm that didn't mean that they would eventually own their own far and so they just felt like there was no future. They took the rest of the families with them as far as the chinatown's go. They don't really have functioning chinatowns anymore. As far as i can tell out in chinatown or ireland in general basically doesn't have chinese american community more lock is very similar right there. Maybe are few times americans still living in lock but as is like a functioning sort of chinatown as we know like what are chinatown is <hes>. I think it's more touristy commercial rather than like a functioning chinatown. The remaining towns mostly stand as a reminder of what the area once was in a longest churning out along with the gold country is like obviously there are no well. There's there's not too many families left so the town's turned more into a historical place where the emphasis on capturing the history and the culture but there are still so many people connected to this region kelly is one of the only asian american historical archaeologists and she found herself drawn to the delta through her roots which my interest in the delta comes from my own again family history and interest in family history. I knew that the delta was a important important place more broadly for americans as a place where a lot of people were involved in agriculture but i also knew from a broader sort of family reunion that led us is to the sacramento delta one point that my family had roots in this place and so as a grad student a new grad student who's like i need to find a place to to do some sort of archaeological work. I became interested in the delta because of my own family roots and so i knew that there was a sort of like family tie in history to do the delta and so i just like okay. Let me just see what it's about. I think the other interesting thing that has come out of my own family roots and the delta is it's made it so i have an interesting position as both descendant community member but also researcher which i know as scholars some of a struggle with that under doing research on our own communities but at the same time it's also been really fantastic as in. I think people who are potential oral history interviewees or may want to talk to me because i'm one of that right. I didn't grow out the delta but because i have ties and the delta it it's a it's an in in my conversation with my uncanny how the chinese americans who made the delta possible never reap the fruits of their labor. There is so much in this piece of history and it's so rich you have these as laborers that were paid a dollar and they came up with these ingenious ways to reclaim this delta this region in which they would never or be able to own land it would never belong to them in a very real sense the agricultural industry such a huge part of california right and just this wouldn't even be possible without the contribution of chinese americans that is something i love to point to and be like this is the tangible way in which your life everyone everyone in this entire country food that you put on the table and feed your kids has been affected by asian american history so it's delta workers may never know the impact of legacy but as long as towns like locks still stand and people like kelly and connie continue to celebrate it efforts won't be forgotten and i'll keep doing my part by sharing stories of asian americana eric conohere. You can find out more about locks from the lock foundation website at w._w._w. Dot locked dash foundation dot org as well as the book bitter melon allie inside america's last rural chinese town. Asian american is hosted and produced by me. Quincy servicemen are opening song. We belong magnetic north and featuring christina asong hearing with these credits is we are the children by chris jima nobuko miyamoto and charlie chan the music you heard during this episode including clued the two sons help and wind by david tran aka applesauce hit the road by peter sue where we've been by tong and wandering chinaman by charlie chin mm-hmm special thanks to ellen aquino connecting me with his colleague kelly fall into professor clemente phillies husband who also provided tons of helpful information they all teacher asia cal state northridge so go take some asian american studies courses from them. You can visit our site of asian. Americana dot com find us on facebook and follow us on twitter at tation underscore. Americana asian-american is proud founding member of potluck a collective of podcasts featuring voices and stories from the asian american community. Thanks you're listening and stay tuned for more stories asian americana nine next mm-hmm.

sacramento delta california chinatown san francisco china connie king sacramento connie sacramento san joaquin delta kelly fong lock museum asia connie low i- alton town pearl river chinese language school atlanta delta professor walnut grove
Episode 181: Meet the Founder and CEO of Crediverso

WokeNFree

33:27 min | 2 months ago

Episode 181: Meet the Founder and CEO of Crediverso

"It's and we are the co host of thank you thank you thank you for tuning into one hundred and eighty i free. If you've been tuning in every week for free wednesday we'll all about being real and honest with each other and you we talk about everything and anything important to us you though world and nothing is off the table. This week is so exciting so exciting because you will meet the founder and ceo of credit versa. So so unfunded but before we go there couple of questions to ask you. have you. Download the episode on free dot com to the podcast app. If you haven't pleased souso immediately that's how you show your number one support for the show and that's how you join the conversation so if you have questions for this remarkable man. That's where he put them right there. Now if you're like tops. We love you. We want you. We need you right back at you. But for some reason you can't add apt to your phone which is like a. I don't know maybe get a new phone but either way whatever your circumstance maybe that's okay we still love you. We still want you. We still do what we need you to do. Is to make sure your subscribed and following the show on whichever platformer catching this on so we greatly appreciate our love and support through i tunes if you holler at us on tune in stitcher. Google play youtube soundcloud iheartradio. Spotify were on pandora. Welcome freeze everywhere so hello joined the fun guys wherever you play please now what you can also do which is really really easy and really fun is by going to okinawa dot com. You can subscribe to the show via email. Why do you want to do that. Because then you get email notifications every single week of the new episodes and it's like you don't have to remember. I mean obviously woken for wednesday super easy to remember but nonetheless stuff happens life gets in the way you'll get your email and you'd be like cool okay and you can listen right there so that superfund now when it comes to social media you can always holler and find us at facebook. Instagram twitter youtube. Tiktok yes i said. Tiktok and pinterest outspoken free. And then of course if you've looked ninety seconds ninety seconds portfolio water please review the show. Why because again. It gives us the feedback and the understanding of how the show's feeding into your life. And i think we would just love more five star reviews. Thank you fantastic. We win so before we continue on with this amazing conversation with the founder and ceo of credit versatile. Let's introduce who this who this amazing. Mount is so. Carlos hernandez is the founder and ceo of the first online financial products marketplace built for the us latino audience after earning his j d an mba at harvard very nice hernandez worked on wall street and noticed few hispanics in leadership. He was offered several jobs but declined them all to help latinos game access and become more financially literate super cool critic. Bursa is his way of building platform to address the disregard for the power of the latino dollar super impressive now similar to that of the credit karma and experience the online destination will provide information and clear comparisons for credit check services credit card offers loan options and remittance completely available in english and in spanish the site endeavors to become a reliable resource including short tutorial videos debt and spending advice budgeting tools and more to equip latinos to make smart and informed personal finance decisions that super bowl now without further ado. Let's get into our conversation before we start the conversation. We always like to share a little bit about us before getting into the real meat and potatoes of things last time we asked. Would you rather donate in oregon to a friend in need or sell one to a stranger for tons of money. This week we're asking. Would you rather find a way or make away. And that's a great question is thinking about it and You know i I think from experience I was the. I was the only guy in my high school class to go to harvard. I was the only mexican guy in my law school class. i think that means making a way and it's Unfortunately often the case in in our communities right that that has to there has to be the case that has to happen so yeah. I like making away. I agree absolutely. I similar a emigrant family. My mom and dad are from jamaica and caribbean culture. Very much. The same of lake. Typically you have to make away. A things are not given to you so i think when you make away that path is much more meaningful to you in a really shows the tenacity and determination you have as a human being and you can pass it down to generations so Making way would be my answer. I agree that's probably a big piece of the emigrant tally right. He added pretty much. So i grew up in the hood and making away pretty much all that there was. There wasn't really anything fine. So i kinda understand that struggle barrier earlier on that there. Wasn't anybody gonna help you to kind of figure out things yourself so i understand them making a way as engineer. That's pretty much what we do. In general we just we make ways we don't we don't find what's in existence because usually not something they are we have to create it from scratch or build up a maybe some some sometimes. There's some other little helps hellmers that help out but yeah it's it's usually making a way that's kind of the fun part about being tech right now is that there's the opportunity to make away because a lot of people are doing things that really just have never been done before All right so how about you. Tell us the origin story behind credit versa. Yeah let's well it's it's It goes back away so you know. I grew up in a mexican american family here in los angeles which is where i'm from now and From really when. I was a little kid. My parents were super involved in the hispanic community but on a professional level and a personal level. So you know my parents were both involved. That the lumuna which you know you guys all know from going up watching spanish-language tv and that basically every dinner table conversation we had we were going over. Stacks up telenovela tapes. You're not which one should go on which ones were good which works and those were all vhs tapes back them by the way to date myself That you know it had an impact on me. And i was lucky enough to be able to go and get an education and i knew i wanted to get involved with hispanic community at a professional level and so really it was just a question of where was the opportunity to have that biggest impact and so I went to high school here in downtown. La went off to the east coast. You go to college at harvard. I studied latin american studies. Their work my tail off graduate top ten percent of my class and went down to latin america. Work there for a while to. I was in mexico. I was in brazil. Argentina columbia all over the place for a couple of years. It was a lot of travel but Came back and went to grad. School did a jd mba Four years lost quinn business school also harvard and that was kind of wing the formations of i begin to take shape because i was just You know like. I said trying to figure out where was an opportunity to make an impact and looking at okay. Was it legal services. Healthcare and realize that in the space of personal finance. There was some really it really a big opportunity because no one really ever addressed this huge portion of the market that was the spanish speaking hispanic demographic in the united states. And that's sixty two million people twenty percent of the population. But you can't do something as simple as getting credit check and spanish in this country right now and we're actually going to be offer that so when we realized that is a team. That's when we decided okay. This is where we want to focus. We wanna focus on personal. Finance helping people get access to loans could access to credit cards bringing people back into the formal lending ecosystem and away from things like payday loan lenders or keeping money into your mattress and actually get people the builder credit scores. They can go start doing things that really the rest of the population has had access to a long long time. Wow that's incredible so then I'm sure there's a lot to speak on. But what would you say. Are the biggest financial concerns currently facing the latino population here in the united states. I think the biggest one is lack of access to information. I think incredible friction in getting information about financial products to the latino community. And that's everything from simple obvious things like it not being in spanish right And you know obviously not not. Everybody eats only spanish. Lot of people speak english more than they speak spanish or speak both but i wanna be able to pull up information on a credit card or loan and show my who only speak spanish rate and look at it and understand what she's getting yourself into so that's a really easy one the having the right distribution channels being used also. That's really important so you know we are. We're not advertising at whole foods. For example we're advertising at dollar general and ucla in boyle heights. The places where for for starters You know that's just where community is but it's also where places like fargo and bakr america and capital one. They're not advertising there and that's just a part of the community that they're you know don't seem to be that interested in and that's kind work with virtual comes in it's just reaching out to that underserved segment of the population making sure. We're getting them information getting them access to financial products again. We're totally free. So you know. We're a free service. But i think that access is the biggest biggest problem right now with the impact of covid nineteen affecting marginalized communities like the latino population. How can latinos focused on improving their financial. Planning what you really good questions. And fortunately the kobe. Nineteen pandemic has had a largely disproportionate impact on the hispanic community than the rest of the country. And the reason for that is to make sense which is that. So many members of our community are from a job standpoint employed in positions that have to do with hospitality. Tourism food and beverage All these things that really were the first places to take hitch when the pandemic really started slow things down so the unemployment rates for example far outpaced the general market and hispanic community. So i remember back in april. I think we were seeing something like Nine ten eleven percents As an average across the country for unemployment and hispanic community it was getting close to twenty percent. So that's a huge gap and You know that has implications for a lot of things both right now and the fact that you won't get a paycheck this month or next month but also down the line. You know what is happening for me socioeconomic standpoint from education standpoint when people who used to be able to send their kids to school now need to stay home with them and they can't afford tutors. The education gap and then the socio-economic gaps. Just continues to widen as wealthy families are able to solve that problem and You know impoverished families are not bound credible and when it comes to the platform that you've built and it's so cool that it's free right so there's no issues of accessibility i- we'd love for you to break down like. What are the best ways for the latino population to use it and to what are the main takeaways. When when they think of a the company in the platform what what should we thinking about their. Yeah picture traps. And so i was talking to somebody yesterday. spoke spanish. Not asking them Do you ever send money internationally. Ever send money to family lived in a. Brian said yeah. I send money twice a month. I sent three hundred dollars to my mother who's living in tijuana and that's very very common thing. We noticed in our customer basis that they're sending money abroad to support family relatives friends. Whatever it is and so we are the only place where you can actually compare the ways to send money and find out which one is cheapest which one is fastest and that makes a difference. Because if you're sending three hundred dollars a month and you're paying twenty percent versus if you come and compare before you said and we can get your rate down to five percent. That's a lot more money that we can put back into the pocket of whoever's receiving that nah that money twice a month so that's one big way that you can come us our site and it's just before you send money come on compare i mean you would compare before booking a hotel room booking a flight right so you might as well move. Sonny's well wow. He's second way. Is we really just wanna make it as easy as possible for people to get the right credit cards the right loans. So that they're not paying way too high interest rate they're not paying a really high end. Be and so much of that is just you know you take what is kind of presented to you and you know maybe you were in college and there was somebody sitting at a table to give you a free t shirt. You can sign up for a credit card and other when you've been your number since but you know maybe the card has one hundred dollar annual fee to twenty five percent interest rate and you can get one by you know as long as you're paying your bills on time you get that down to a zero dollar annual fee a fifteen or eighteen percent interest rate and you can start building all sorts of perks getting cash back and points things like that and you know that's a lot of homework to have to figure out on your own. We just try to do all that homer for you and make it really really simple. That's awesome and actually a follow up question to that would be as entrepreneurs we love to and obviously you're not an incredible entrepreneur What what type of information do you offer for a latino like business owners and that market. Because i know that from african american perspective you know black. Women are like the rising group of entrepreneurs in this country. But i'd love to hear us talk a little bit about that and kind of financial well being from the the entrepreneur perspective absolutely. And you're totally right. You know it's these communities. It's why women hispanic women you know the very much it's Often the immigrant class that is. We're the ones out there that are hustling right. That are out there and you know. Maybe they're not always huge businesses but everywhere you look somebody who's running a small business and a lot of small businesses ended up being medium and big businesses. And that's i think the really fun part about what our communities are doing So you know how we try to help those is. We have a comparison platform direction launching very soon that compare all the best small business loans. So the idea there is that again. You know there are so different options out there but it can almost be too many options and you just end up with the one that kind of is right in front of you and the terms are not that good. The interest rate is not that good. It's we kinda wanna make sure that. Hey what are you using loan for. What is You know your is going towards capital expenditures. Going towards marketing. How long do you need this money for. And based on that we try to find you the best deal. That's kind of one way to do it. And then another thing. I think that's important is just around information so whether this is guides on how to access. Ppp dollars. Or i think one of the only places where actually i know where the only place That offers a full english spanish financial terminology. Glossary so it wasn't. I went to business school. And i didn't understand half of these terms much less. You know if it's a language. I didn't speak. I definitely wouldn't understand them. So just explaining what is something as simple as a revolving loan or a balance transfer. And how can i actually take advantage of that. That's amazing that's great. You're listening to woken free and free in free walkin. Free game free. Podcast about being real honest. What has been the biggest lesson free though learn from creating reversal. That's a good question You know. I think. I've been really lucky to have been surrounded by really smart people on our team. I think that's the most important thing you know. The i think the hardest part about starting anything You know whether it's a small business or anything else that you were starting and building from scratch. You asked whether you want to find a way or make away anytime. You're making a way if There is a. I think an african proverb that says if you want to go fast go alone if you wanna go far go together and having that team around you is so so important and i think i was lucky to have folks that really have a lot of experience and things that i didn't understand we're smarter than me and a lot of ways and together we were able to get through some of those really hard parts Some of the you know the early failures are the only setbacks lean on each other learn from each other and scored each other and That that's probably the big quiz team. Wonderful now do you have other like upcoming things that you'd want to announce it for people to be on the lookout for and if people wanna get in touch with the where do they go. Great so the easiest place to get in touch with us is creating dot com We have You know whether join email us at info for rare so we have a little message for You can also find us on instagram. We're instagramcom soccer here so There you can find And in terms of what's coming up. Next i think to really cool things that are working on launching within the next couple of months here One is we listen. We're trying to get out there and talk to our users as often as we can and wanting the tony is hey you know this is all good and well that you. Have you know tons of logs entering questions about these things but with really helped him for me. If i can just go somewhere and ask somebody specific question that i have right now and so we're actually going to be launching a you can call it a forum where anybody anytime of day can come onto our site and ask their personal finance question. We have personal finance expert moderators. We're going to answer those questions and we also actually have Some really cool partnership that we're working on with people that are You know public figures With finance background in the hispanic community. Who are going to be coming on and sharing their personal stories and answering questions from their perspective as wells. let someone. i'm really excited about wonderful. Okay now i have to ask this because you said these services are free so just got me wondering. How sustainable is this business. Is there a business model or do you have. Premium plan subscription plans. What are you doing to jenner Generating revenue or. Would you mind going into any of that. Oh yeah this is what our investors are talking about. Every single day could be happy. With if i didn't have any answer to this question So yeah we're we're venture backed company. We have silicon valley investors. Who are you know. Fantastic and give us a lot of advice grunt so basically the the way that our business model works and this is one of the pieces that makes me so happy about it is that we don't charge anything to the user to use the services to compare prices on semi near nationally to get permission about lows to connect with products to read the information educational information. That's all totally free. And that's gonna stay that way now. Where where our revenue model comes from is that we have partnerships with all the large financial institution all the banks or the lenders etcetera and they basically came us and said hey we we know that this is a really big growing portion population and the demographic that we don't understand you know we're located out in the middle of minnesota or whatever and you know we don't even have any good mexican restaurants town. How are we supposed to be on access this community that we can't speak their language. We don't know where they live. We all know what they're doing. So that's where we help them and when we find when it comes to say i need a credit card. I need alone. We help them find the best one. If they decide they want to move forward with it. That's great and when we send that user to dismantle solution and they take out a credit card take loan then we receive a fee from the bank so again we never make any money per user banks themselves are the ones that are paying us. And i kinda like to think of it as you know the It's it's not a stealing from the rich given to the poor kinda thing but I like the fact that our users are not being charged. Anything by us and all our money comes from the big banks and financial stations. Yeah it's like a finders fee right because it's kind of like you. You matched the bank with the customer and then it rightfully so the bank should pay for that because they're now going to be able to make business from that transaction so that's pretty cool. Yeah were trying to do there is that we know that they're not very good. At either finding consumers and the hispanic community or servicing them you know and and making the products are optimized and built for them in a way that is unique to the needs of somebody who maybe just moved here from mexico and the dominican republic a couple of months ago. So part of what we're doing. We have these data feedback loops in place where we help them optimize their products. And say hey this is. This is what the community needs that we need. You know No overdraft checking account. We need You know first transactions free when you're sending money internationally that's what we need. Let's help you. Let's figure out a way to structure those products and we conservatives customer even better very cool. Does your platform also speak to the daca community. You know and kind of people in those situations where they're trying to make a life for themselves but you know there's certain immigration issues that they're dealing with here in the united states. That's a huge part of who our platform is built to service. And we you know there. There are other places on the internet to go find out okay. What's the best credit card to get me into the fanciest. Airline lounges At jfk out new york right. And and that's not that's not. That's not the problem we're trying to solve. We're trying to solve the problem for the people who needed credit card without social security number. Who need to get alone. But they don't have any documentation papers. That's who we're trying to help. And so that's where we really have a lot of educational information and we try to partner with and feature products that you know. Maybe they don't need a social security number to be able to take out a credit card or skirt hearts. That's what we're trying for their okay and then another follow up question would be too. I find that a lot of times when we're when we're trying to create changes especially generational changes. It's really important to like reach into the youth. So is your company doing things to kinda get kids kind of financial planning and if so what what what do those services or content look like. Well you know what's funny is that we've found is kind of the same way that it's shaped out of my family right. Is that my parents. And they were speaking. Spanish language rights and Then you know we. I grew up in l. a. mcgregor. My sister grew up in la. So well we were speaking spanish every day at home we go out to school more speaking english and so that younger generation. They're much more. And this is a little bit of a generalization but generally more familiar with being more comfortable with language things like that so what we try to do is create a user interface. Someone like me who prefers searching for things in english can go on there and find credit card or alone or some information about it and then bring it to my aunt. My uncle who need that product. And so here's here's thick and you know this is what you're looking for when you take a look at it. Tell me if it's the right thing you click one button. They get the exact same thing in spanish and then they can actually trust and they feel comfortable using it right but Having that use case for someone who's younger and wants to find that product himself you know there are different ways to navigate that and we're definitely trying to do that both with the product and then with the outreach also in terms of the people that were partnering with the you know there are a lot of really cool public figures in this space who are aligned with our mission and care about You know increasing access to financial information reaching this community with these Just bringing people back into a level playing field so a lot of those folks are people that the younger generation of familiar with and there are a lot of the people that were working with partner. West perfect okay. So as the party of products do you also have a app that people can download. We are working on the app. Were probably going to have that ruled out within the next few months. Or so we have a whole team of engineers that are based on what you wanna are working on right now But in the meantime you can access us on the on web on mobile or mobile websites. Super functional use But yeah the apple. Become now soon. Okay that's good okay. And then i guess last question would be. Do you have any additional advice or words of wisdom that you wanna share for folks who are just trying to navigate their financial planning and wealth-building sage. Today like what can they do today. That can help enhance their lives. So the guy that. I was talking to yesterday that i mentioned a moment ago. I asked him who he uses to send money with and he told me a name of one of the big money transfer providers and i said okay. Why do use them. He says oh uh i think about it. I guess it's just we've been using forever you know we've been using it for a long time. I already had the app downloaded. So it's just easy and it's what i'm used to. There's no cameras. Do they charge you every time and he said okay. Well they charge me about Eighteen percent of the transaction. Every time i said so every single time he sends. And that's every other week Three hundred dollars Every time he does that. So let's see that's about Almost sixty bucks if he's paying every time and so rather than getting two hundred and ninety dollars his mother's getting two hundred forty dollars more or less every single time. And that's because that's just the way that these used to doing it and so to answer your question terms of what advice i happen. People don't keep doing things the way that you have been doing them. Just because that's what you're used to. I can almost promise you that there's a better way. And it's almost very little behavioral change or you just kind of have to go a couple extra bucks to compare and then you'll be saving fifty sixty bucks every couple of weeks for sending money you can credit card get one that doesn't charge you that big and you will be. You can start building your credit score higher so that you can get loans to better interest rates. It takes just a little bit of just going to the website. We make it as easy for years with possible. I promise that's kind of what our job is But don't keep doing things that what you've been doing them. Just because that's what you're you're still that's great advice. A fantastic human beings are creatures of habit right and when we find a way we just. I think subconsciously assumed that it's domestic without always thinking. Is this the best thing that i could be doing. Is this getting the job done how we want it to get shot. Because i'm sure that that man probably wants to send more by there. So that's fantastic that you're able to help him and be able to help that family. Go you know get further. Yeah that's the great thing i think about you know. That's the reason why like this job right. Is that the bigger. We make our company in the more successful. we are as a company the greater positive social change. We have and i know that sounds kind of corny but it's true right the more customers we bring our platform the You know we will make more money as a company because we have partnerships with those guys that are paying us but every time we bring a new customer onto the platform we are literally saving them immediately and putting more money back into their pocket. So it's really just a great alignment. We do better. They do better. I think as a community everybody kind of benefits since tastic not corny. It's very true and it's very much needed. Because to your point earlier the hispanic community is going to be the predominant community aid the united states in the very near future. So we need to make sure that this community is being served and supported because they are as as every other community has been part of the backbone of building. America lake. Let's let's let's see everyone win. There's enough pie in the sky for us. Also yeah you're totally right. And you know it extends beyond like these problems are not unique to hispanic community right like the community to chinese american community. All have problems with that one of the guys who was really key in helping us design our Send money product was a close friend of mine. Who's nigerian immigrant. And he said. I'm sending me constantly and i would love if there were a way to compare every time i send to make the best rate and that was you know. He's he doesn't speak spanish. You've never sent money to mexico. But he's sending in might area twice a week. Rouser interesting well then. That begs the question. Will this the lake could this then be extrapolated into other communities. Yeah for like people who wanna see this that same type of information gone in or you know like other communities that do have similar behaviors but also for other immigrant communities. I think it's we spend a lot of time. Thinking about that. In the nice thing is at least four. Our compare ways to send money Part of the website. You can actually use that right now to compare anywhere internationally so you know. We focus on spanish community. Just because that's where small companies still you Family owned and we want to focus on one place. I make sure we get it right but you can use our money's comparison Service just compare to send money to africa. Asia south america wherever it is now. That's one send you know. Like i said the we will be the first place where you can get a credit check in spanish in this country. Can you get a credit. Check in mandarin. Probably not can you get one in korean. Probably not so there. I think a lot of weight here to help build up the entire immigrant community beyond just the sixty two million hispanics in the country super goal. How will we are grateful that you came on haringey shared your story and welcome free. We definitely will share out your information and We encourage everyone. Yes who could use your services to really get on there today because it's free and it's super helpful and it's gonna save you money and hello. That's a win win. let's i thank you so much. We really appreciate everything. Thank you so much for having me at five cures and help get the word out. And so i really appreciate it and you're talking to y'all yes absolutely earth. We are at that time again. It is coming to the end of one hundred. Eighty first episode of gun. I i'm a good one match game set and match maybe twenty birth. I was like are you doing. Oh you're doing tennis reference five excellent. Api this is quite the episode meeting the founder and ceo of whatever so if you have any additional questions what should you do definitely check out the links to the website on woken free dot com again if you download the episode through the pod being app. That's how you can put in question. The comments that we definitely can share with him as he will be able to see them. The world will be able to see them. Be fantastic so make sure you do that now. Will we leave you hanging for what our next episode will be about drum roll. Please on our next episode. We're asking would you ever join onlyfans. Make sure you follow on social media conversation and make sure you tune in next week for everyone's eight to join the conversation at will confer dot com if you'd like to be a guest on the show like the fabulous guests that we had makes you submitted topic for an upcoming episode or share your platform and while you're storing needs to come to the mobile family on the contact us page out wilkin free dot com again guys. This is w. o. K. e. n. f. r. e. dot com. When it comes to social media you can always find us on facebook. Instagram twitter tiktok to interest. We're everywhere so again. Our social media handles are easily found on the website. And then for sponsorships or collaborations you can always at us up on our contact us at will confer dot com. If you didn't already subscribe. Please do share the episode and makes you come back to join the conversation. Everyone's a four will confirm wednesday's remember woken for his more than a podcast. It as a way of life until next time.

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137: Go for it! Interdisciplinary artist Jinna Kim on DIY, productivity, and a nonlinear creative journey

Artist Soapbox * Local Artists on Creative Process

41:51 min | Last month

137: Go for it! Interdisciplinary artist Jinna Kim on DIY, productivity, and a nonlinear creative journey

"Hey everybody welcome to artists. Soapbox artists soapbox is a podcast featuring triangle area artists talking about their work. Their plans their manifestos. I am your host tamra kazan in this episode. I'm speaking with gina. Kim gina describes herself as an interdisciplinary artist. I would also describe her as a multidisciplinary artist from food photography to filmmaking to everything in between gina followed her curiosity and jumps in feet first. Gina kim was born in masan south korea and immigrated to the united states toddler. She is an award. Winning interdisciplinary artist. Who became a filmmaker during quarantine. You'll hear us talk about that in this episode originally trained in classical music gina began her professional career in arts administration working at the public theater and then the museum of modern art after completing her. Mba at the university of virginia. Gina moved to charlotte north carolina to work at a major bank. Gina is a prolific actor writer filmmaker and interdisciplinary artist. She was recognized charlotte business. Journal's forty under forty listing in two thousand eighteen nineteen. You'll hear us discuss genus first short documentary. Chinese girl wants vote and her works in progress. We discuss storytelling choices. Intention and impact continuous improvement and embracing that do it yourself energy persevering despite rejection and more before we jump in i wanted to read a short paragraph about chinese girl wants vote and play you a clip. Chinese girl wants vote is a documentary style. Short film created about lesser known. Suffrage ist dr mabel ping huang li the project was produced during quarantine in response to growing anti asian sentiment during covid nineteen and in celebration of asian pacific american heritage month the year twenty twenty also marked the one hundredth anniversary of the passage of the nineteenth amendment for american women's constitutional right to vote. I'm going to play a short clip from chinese girl. Wants vote to transition into my conversation with gina. You'll hear an additional clip including dr lee's words read aloud at the very end of this episode. Please see the links in the show notes from more information enjoy. Who was the face behind. chinese girl. Wants vote from the national park service. Dr maple ping me was born in china and live from eighteen ninety six to nineteen sixty six after immigrating to the united states when she was just sixteen years old. Mabel lee was a known figure in york suffrage movement when new york city suffrage is held a parade in one thousand nine hundred twelve to advocate for women's voting rights. Maybe on horseback. Hopefully the parade from its start in one thousand nine hundred twenty the nineteen. Th amendment gave women throughout the us. The right to vote but these women like maple valley could not vote until nineteen forty three. This was because of the chinese exclusion act a federal law. That was in place before she was born. The chinese exclusion act limited chinese immigration and prevented them from becoming citizens. Hi gina thank you so much for joining me today. It's great to be here tabora. So let's jump right in and talk about your first short documentary. The title is chinese girl. Wants vote could you talk a little bit about what inspired you to make that peace. Sure this is a little bit of an unusual route both in how it came to be and how the process flowed specifically. This actually was at my original idea. There was a local theater in north carolina that had posted on facebook looking for an asian american writer. Add actress to provide the asian american perspective on the women's suffrage movement given last year. Twenty twenty was centennial of the nineteenth. The right for american women to vote. And so that's really the origin of how i got started and they had selected to profile mabel lee so they had done a little bit of research by little bit a quick. Google ray on oshii is never heard of her. I grew up in the states. Want to american schools. If you had asked me like literally. I had never heard of. This person never occurred to me to google asian-americans just either and so that's where it all started and this all happened during quarantine. So how did that change your approach in. How did you adapt so the original call was in twenty nineteen before the pandemic and the goal was to celebrate again in in the year of twenty twenty. So there was a lot of planning and it was supposed to be a part of a larger piece or montage so this piece specifically. It's actually more of an original adaptation with narration found from writings in the in the public realm. And this is important because things that were copyrighted before nineteen twenty four is still in the public and i say this because you know in my mind and just thinking like jane austen adaptations like you can still do. Those are adaptations so this piece is really an adaptation of her original writings as well as different materials i found in the public like is very strongly aligned to the national park service. So i'm just being very open there in terms of how it came to develop during quarantine. I am going to go a little bit out of order so before that there are plans and doing a lot of rehearsals at having just this perspective being part of a much broader perspective showcasing diverse wins suffered just lack perspective american women's perspective native american perspective et cetera. Et what had happened was. Because i just didn't have the capacity since i do work full time at a corporate job. You rehearse every they hide. Replace me with by under study and so my piece was just kind of. I don't know how to say this. But like cut out of the larger piece. And i just sat on the shelf honestly and during quarantine stood on it but i had the opportunity. I had y component reviewed anonymously by my right and i had her view two things she said. This thing is not ready to go. But this chinese go wants to vote is ready to go. You should try to produce it. And that's what i said. What the heck. I have literally nothing to lose. We're all at home every single day especially in early spring And i just thought. Let me see what i can do and let me see who would want to collaborate with me. And so that's how the process started so in addition to the one hundredth anniversary of the nineteen th amendment twenty twenty brought us the pandemic it swept across instill is. I'm rolling around. In the united states. As a result of that and the trump administration there was a huge uptick and xenophobic and racist rhetoric related to covid. And so i'm wondering how both of both of those things one hundredth anniversary and the co bid epidemic kind of converged how that impacted the way. You approached this piece to answer the first part. I had not seen a lot of very literally asian faces as horror of the suffrage movement. I was unaware. And when you google plus like asia there's so many different kinds of countries different languages and different timelines depending on which specific country. You're from around that time to me. That was just simply an absence. It didn't matter to me. That mabel lee was chinese. It was having an asian face an asian nori. It actually gave me a time line. I wanted a cut. That was presentable to be finished within. Asian american pacific islander heritage on which is in the month of may and that one. It's like an i struggle with what it's called because again. I was brought up in america with american schooling. And i don't recall really celebrating that particular month mumbai. What i do recall is i had scheduled a zoom showing for the collaborators on may thirty first the very last day as well as workshop a new experimental parody on which has now been completed called. Turkey is not a rooster which is a parody responding to anti asian sentiment. So i in real life. It's a parody of my real life. I've the rooster. And i was replaced by chinese under study. So it's kind of like instead of saying this asians this asian. It's not a soap opera. Where he could replace the blonde. The blonde brunette with a brunette you know have a look alike or stand in or whatever you know. It's real people but a lot of people do confused. And what i realized is while lot of people don't realize that i'm not chinese or hey. I'm an immigrant. I'm a naturalized citizen. But that timing was perfect for me and i can say i was very proud of that showing head a lot of fun with my reading. I had great feedback but that led me to really improve upon both of those works. Can you talk a little bit more about how you choose the stories that you want to tell. And i'm actually interested if you'd like to share and how that has evolved over time for you as an adult. I'm going to interpret this as what kind of stories do you like to tell. And what made you a storyteller. All of my recent stories are an extension of my real life. And it's the that. I view things that i've always viewed things as an artist as an interdisciplinary artist. I've always been gifted in art and entertainment. I used to work fulltime in arts and entertainment before business school before i worked in a corporate role by was trained in classical music But i knew. I always had an inkling that i was gifted beyond i had written a paper and my freshman year of undergrad and then for fun. I can't remember what made me do this. I had shared it with the theater department and they had asked me if i wanted to utilize part of their semester to perform as a play and i declined and several like a decade. I was like. I didn't exist that this is back in like the i don't want to say floppy disks but you know the laptops were heavier and i have no email because i remember at one point a want to say during the pandemic people from undergrad who contributed and helped me cloud because again. It was about asian american stereotypes. I asked him if they had a copy but back then we didn't have like if it wasn't in their email. I didn't have a copy either. And i'm hoping i still have a hard copy somewhere in by storage but we're talking you know and so i had always regretted missing out of that opportunity and so much later life. I do have a different kind of capacity thanks largely due to quarantine and also their courage to fail and to retry. I can say chinese wants vo. I stopped counting the versions. Maybe the final versions like number twenty. Yeah a turkey is not a rooster experimental parody finally had a showing up. What i call a proper showing. There have been little bits and pieces here and there through the asheville fringe festival. A which is still available on demand in the month through mid february of twenty twenty one so that was really exciting. But i can't say you have to have a thick skin because by my experimental piece has been rejected. I wanted to say like a hundred times. And the chinese go wants fo- every time i was discouraged it just pushed me to make a better more inspirational version and that was not how it was originally intended. It was feedback that i had gotten from my collaborators and friends and family who were close to me and that really changed. How it was ultimately presented salo. Bit more about that. That's interesting so they were encouraging you to make a more inspirational version. Which was the first version. Much more biographical. Yes at this. This is kind of a strange tales. Part it's like john cage. Like oh i kinda happened. Organically really cool artist but what what happened. Originally as i had the script. And i asked people i said. Hey can you read part of this script for free. Put it on video and let me piece it together and see what it looks like and see if it's really something you know. I'm not going to be doing a play in person. I like barely know how to use a movie at this point. I'm not going to lie. I didn't even know how to post a video on instagram. Someone asks me. I said i don't know how to do that. And i just refused to do it because i'm extremely selfish with my time. I do know how to do these things now. Much much better. Thanks to youtube. it's i can use it as a platform for sharing but one of my friends. Actually my best friend from business. School is chinese america. And i had asked her. I said you know. Can you read either part of their. Or here's script. Here's my idea. And so her back was no she said the example i will never forget. She said because. I'm korean american. And she knows the difference. She said gena you know. It's like morgan freeman. I don't mind if he'd narrates the story of my people but he cannot be the face of people. And i mean first of all. It's a different gender right like a black man. Can a black man represent a chinese suffragettes. He can narrate it. That would be beautiful. And i totally never forgot that after that so that i was like it made me think i was like. I don't have enough asians in a short documentary about able leak. Originally i was just like i just want diverse voices to show the universality of her work like literally. That's how i was thinking. I was extremely naive. And i just thought you know i've been living my life and people total can pick it up until i actually just started quite small. I just ask for feedback and also for participation. And i saw what it looked like and i heard what it looks like and so i had. I knew i had to change the narration for sure because at the beginning i didn't even have like narration. I didn't have like a beginning. And a middle and end. I was just like the universality of her words. Diverse faces and plus. No one's ever heard of mabel anyway so there needs to be a little bit of stories that people are like. What is this random piece about promoting women's suffrage movement generically but to really make it memorable and truly highlight an inspirational asian american figure. So what i did immediately was. I knew i had to get more. I know it sounds so obvious. I needed to get more asian american participation. i needed to get specifically more chinese participation. At i was like maybe i should have some kids in this to you. Know not just have it. Just you know be so my actor friends. Read for me for free so i did. I reached out. I have a chinese-american professor friend. So i out her. I had a long conversation and she was like. Why are you asking me these questions. I'd like i don't know like why would i ever ask you. You know just questions like would you go up to someone be like. What percentage american are you you born year when you look at someone who appears caucasian. That is not usually what has asked and as an asian american. I don't go up to another asian eric and ask. Oh like where are you from. Oh you board here and if you weren't born here when did you move you know and so i was like very. It was very strange for me to ask and people were obviously open and so ultimately in my final version of the film. There are more asian faces than i had originally intended and i did slats it more positive because originally i did have in my script some of the criticism like i remember in the lights like. That's interesting but i really don't identify with her. So that got cut out so that really it was just you know in five minutes so that people can remember what it's about basically it's about an asian american suffrage is mabel lee and if that's all that people remember that's fine by me because at least they know she exists and it's as simple as that because everything else is kind of noise because that was ultimately the purpose of that people knew that asian americans have been part of the fabric of american history from the beginning right right had liked to transition to the work that you are making right now which is another short film titled. I am america. I think i'd like to start. With linking that piece to chinese girl wants vote to get an understanding of how you got from your first documentary film to this next piece and how your process changed or how you decided to tell your next story so very similar process. I'm going to be very transparent again. It was not an original idea. The prompt was out there and the prompt was part of a film festival day. I had participated last year at the huntington beach. Cultural cinema based in california had put on out on film freeway a call for short films or different kinds of films as part of black history month and so the theme of history month in two thousand twenty one is a black family. Representation identity and diversity in terms of the process is very much the same. I reached out to people in my network other actors. I never have open casting calls just people. I was comfortable with. Ida's music from someone you know. In my opinion it has to be original. So that i don't have to worry licensing and so that it really represents people authentically and that was important to me because last year to be part of a collaboration and then to be cut. How one make sure. It's capri those kinds of things like. I didn't want to have to worry about the. I just wanted to do something. Put it out there. And people know that it was unique. And so what i had reached. I'd i actually have no more black people in the south said i know asians and so i just reached out i asked them. I said you know. I put the prompt out. There i said. Can you give me a couple of minutes answering like what does family mean to you. And then i said just want to let you know black history month. Theme and twenty twenty one is representation identity diversity. I gave a spiel for an audition about this. I emailed a few people out. And i just saw what came back. And that's what. I call my jack. John cusack. I put the ask out there. See what comes back at their things that any novice lawmaker. I still. I still have things that i need to work through. Like oh did i remind people to film horizontally not do a close up those kinds of things you know it sounds so so basic but in quarantine you know. I'm not gonna be like driving around with equipment or having cinematographer or things like that so really it's to me. It's it's not an enhanced podcast. It's really people choosing how they want to be heard and seen based on an open products and so the reason how i am america came to be is. I know i just workshop at different venues that i had participated before just as i call it short video poems like a thirty second clip. Here a minute here and i got feedback in so out of the footage survive. Original film celebrate family. I had pulled out this component of america. And i posted because for me. I participated in in it as well saito. I am korean-american. People may not know actually create american not chinese. And then i'm also a nash liceu citizen. That's just part of what i put out there as part of today's social climate and also being able to participate so what i decided is to. Actually i know that what i have out there is still worth while. Is it perfectly crafted. No is ever going to be perfect. No but can i make it more appealing. Can i make it more unique. Can i make it something like it's it's kind of. It's more than a half baked. I don't know if quarters baked as a word like three-quarters baked so i got footage. I decided let me just brought it so that it's more authentic to what i really think versus trying to fit into someone else's prompter someone else's mold because in the end even if the prompt came from somewhere it's still my original idea that i see through fruition. If that makes sense. That's how i view it but in both cases i was prompted. I did not magically come wake up one day idea for saw. I love this three-quarter baked idea feel like that's my t shirt. But i need to wear because most everything i do. I'm aiming in that direction. And and i feel pretty good about it. You know it's interesting thinking about working from prompts. Because i have generated a lot of projects giving other writers prompts and then seeing what they come back with and i'm always delighted by the variety of story and perspective point of view style. It's just incredible. The abundance of ideas and the diversity of creating work. I feel like as an artist. I'm curious to hear what you think about this though. The world is a prompt to me like everything is inspiration. Everything is a launching pad for making my own work in my own way and something that is to me really amazing about you is that you take the prompt but then you do your own thing with it like you actually make a thing. You aren't just inspired. But you take it to the next level including learning all the new skills required and all the experimentation and all the redrafting and all the feedback seeking and that is. That's really to be to be lauded. That is a super compliment. I think the differentiation is that the older i get and the more successful in quotes. I get the less afraid. I i am to fail and google and use wikipedia and like check out random things on instagram. Because no i'm not yet on tiktok you know you can curate your life or let it pass by or absorb things but i always knew that i absorbed information a little bit differently and i really struggle. I struggled and i still struggle to articulate by perspective. But i have gotten better out of. I don't say necessity but out of a desire to share my perspective. More broadly whether it is in my small way being an artist activists participating in social justice encouraging people to vote cringing people to be less racist towards asians etc. Like those things so there is sometimes that agenda underlying it. But i can't say. I mean you know when you got kids like do little things at a time. I mean i just learned how to post a video on instagram. At took me forever the first time because i did you know. I didn't want download something else like the aspect ratio. Whatever i was like what it's gonna cut off my video and then you have all those filters and so i can't say like each time i do something. It can only get better from there really really basic things so probably earlier version like right now. i'm not. I don't even think i fought matches and the version of chinese once. Vote got cataloged as part of digital public library for america of those kind of things that are really obvious to seasoned experience. People really making commercials. I've always participated in some some sort of way but to your point to be a filmmaker and oversee that entire process the script writing to directing to cutting and editing casting all of those elements. I just take it one at a time. And also if i know it could be better or if i get rejected and what i rejected. I did put it out there. The other thing. I want to say is i. Don't think enough people try things for free doesn't have to cost money especially if you youtube something. No one's going to know that you youtube something totally way. I don't wanna say stupid. But right now i was like i had all these facts at the time around. I was presenting on this. But there's a lot going on. I'm not a historian. I can't remember every day. I can't remember all the different elements of history. It just depends if you really focus at the task at hand whether it's not like i'm pretty sure my font doesn't match but in the end it didn't matter because the reason why i have been successful with at least chinese girl wants is the content. It really started with a couple of sheets of paper and that was strong enough. I can say for my new films. The concept is is less unique and so everything needs to be better and you know a has to be more unique. And i can say that. I know that for fact because the topic is pretty broad. So there's a lot it's kind of like people breaking into arts and entertainment. What like people would work for free. Whatever so why would someone just take the time this year to watch by perspective on america versus last year. The timing was good right for many reasons. All the reasons you stated political climate anti-asian sentiment like all the buzzwords that are not the good ones except maybe like the women's right to vote so when people are realizing oh it's actually different time line to vote. Depending on her skin color depending on your class perhaps et cetera. All of those things that you don't really think there are associated to the timing is right for that which forgave a lot of maybe the more technical inadequacies of that particular film in it of itself so it was strong enough to be catalogued as as part of digital public library. America which is unexpectedly the ultimate goal because some. I tried to publish it as a book. And i didn't know how to do that and then i thought might be expensive it. I didn't want to put out my friend crappy version out there. So so what do you. What did i do it. Email the library and no they did not get back to me right away so you have to actually follow up now. I had never heard of the digital public library. That is incredible that you came across that and then he pursued it. It's like wow. This is amazing. What a cool resource that exists in the world. I've never heard of. I tried for months to make an e book version or some sort of kids. Book version of chinese wants vote. And so i called someone who i knew and she was very upfront was like how much did you spend on the you know the book that you did in you know. I find out all these things like she had not just collaborators but you know like real professional people to help her not just meet you to being each and every step and i was like wow that is really expensive especially since my budget is why can't say it's no longer nothing. I'm very proud to be recipient of the charlotte is creative. Hug grab but it's only two hundred fifty dollars just went. That's already been absorbed by collaborating. I i from chinese wants vote and so through that i just thought well. What's the most logical next step is while the libraries free. You can ask any sort of question and it became more and more obvious to me because as people watch chinese once felt whether it was a local historian whether it was part of a museum whether exhibited at a film festival. I'm based in charlotte so the charlotte mecklenburg library system had a series called engaged. Twenty twenty and so they had said. Oh maybe we'll try to incorporate them into one of the talks about the history of women voting because you know the league of women voters they were doing a whole bunch of events etc and they never followed up and so that felt to me. I feel strongly about this. I fell like not that it was a bayton switch. I'm going to take this one personally. Because i don't want to generalize but if you're gonna ask someone who is. I'm gonna call myself a person of color and then not follow through. That is a waste of my time and that be waste anyone's time and then it does me bad because i thought well now i'm worried that there's an absence of the asian american perspective in particular. You know either whether it was a panel et cetera. And so i just. I just followed up with that critical question i just said and then and then i realized okay. Well maybe i'll have to do something separate so i ended up doing something separate but very similar to the prompts. Not my original idea. Someone else had suggested it. And the difference is i followed through and with skin like what's the worst. It doesn't happen well. It didn't happen in the first place right so nothing so going into project knowing that you may or may not be and i'm air quoting this accepted or air quote successful or whatever adjective people put in those air quotes knowing that that is a possibility. Because we've all experienced that before about a billion times by this particular point in life. Why do you still make things. And what does that confidence in thick skin. Come from so re said what inspires me to keep going on after being rejected. I'm going say it straight. If i stopped to think about reality and any of the rooms. I play in whether it's nonprofit for profit in the area of original music film making food photography acting. I don't think about the odds. You just can't because in reality. I really truly don't think i'm a korean american board and masan korea female base in charlotte north carolina. Whatever the facts are. Where from like does that really matter. I don't think about my age. And i'm trying now even not to think about my experience. My experience gives me a humongous advantage. I've been educated in the united states. I've worked at prestigious institutions. But the differences will what you do with it so the way the i view it is. I just take those experiences. And today i think about a little bit differently i think of as sort of like virtual file folders like. I have all these experiences inside of me. Can i use them for something or if you instead of just like watching a youtube video you can just catalog at like. Maybe that's a tool and i don't. I don't catalog anything i mean. I'm just i just use google and some of it. I do a large part to chance as well if it comes by way because of lack of time and so it's a combination of those things but most importantly not to fear failure once you realize. I mean they're real problems world like no one's going to shoot me for this bad idea. Hopefully they won't ridicule me and if they do so what. Maybe i'll after you get one good idea out of ten out of one hundred thousand. Think about if i came from classical music. What are my odds of. making money's. The classical music probably like less than one percent especially now. It's almost zero percent because of just the way that the world works. But how is it that. I have beaten those odds because you adapt to the environment that you are in a virtual environment so i had to learn how to instagram video. These simple examples because they are not profound examples. But if you don't adapt. I'm still the same person with the same experiences the differences. I'm just able to articulate them. Maybe in a different way bowl dumb and then just make something out of it and i. It's an iterative process. But in a lot of these different areas. If you stop to think about well. I'm one in a million or you know like things that you can't change like i don't like that you're female or even think about that. I just think most of the time. Especially now i just stink. Does the quality of the idea and the standard regardless of subject is a good enough to either stand on its own or am. I tickled with the idea. I'd really love it anyway. Just wanna put it out there. Because before i can share like i worked at the museum of modern art just an administration not as an artist for five years worked at the public theater in new york so it was always surrounded by creative and isis. Think wow these people are geniuses. I never thought. I could be one of those as well but i'm glad that experience wasn't wasted so everything that you do. I mean one of the ideas that i had gotten four or turkeys now to restore the experimental parody. Because i had gotten feedback. They're like you need to heighten the drama. I got from watching. Hbo watchman which was free during the weekend of june. So that's what i say like. You could be crafty. You don't have to spend money but it was offered for free for that weekend. So i binged on it and i watched so i find inspiration. I mentioned this inspiration can come from anywhere. It's just how you use it. It shouldn't be a privileged to think of the art in it of itself and just focusing on that but it tends to be because people are are so including myself you. It's so easy to be hindered with reality like okay. I'm hungry now. I need to eat my next meal. Like maybe that's a literal. So i remember today. I knew to eat breakfast. You know at a certain time. So that i would have be distracted. It sounds very all. But i do not think about the odds and then if i do get rejected. I think i still have that confidence. Unlike i think i think something is good and i'm not willing to give up on it not enough or not yet and so. I don't win everything. But i tend to be more prolific because i put more out there but i also don't send the same thing out over and over again it has to be a better version in it of itself the films and art stuff that i do. That's like truly low budget like used iphone. I used a garbage can as a tripod for example. I still do if. I need a second tripod. Those kinds of things like that's like real do it yourself and i can share exactly what i do how i do it with a lot of google So i have basically one big question left about how all of the interdisciplinary artist and work experience in All kind of comes together in your work. Is there anything that you would like to touch on before we close what i want to encourage people whether you consider yourself an artist or not. I have dealt with the impostor syndrome and so now i just embrace myself as a air quotes interdisciplinary artists which is a catchall. Sounds obvious but the process is never perfect. It doesn't have to be linear. It doesn't matter what your background is or where you're from. How old you are. My process is non linear. I've had different ideas at different points in my life. And i do know. I have not traditional background and i just embraced that i can understand that. Might confuse people to have that dichotomy between nonprofit or corporate experience to be classically trained and be an office worker but that is so many people. There could be waiters who are brilliant actors so instead of thinking about those boxes. I would say just go for it. I love that. Thank you so much. It's amazing what a banquet there is for us as artists. I think to be able to pick and choose. From all of the different specialties and experiences and skills. I'm gonna torture this metaphor a little bit but an in and make a meal of it right in. The meal is our creative lives and the offering that we can share with our audience and that those audience can include strangers but also close friends and family. And i just love the way that you are approaching your work as creative and the breadth that you have and the way in which you you reach for whatever sparks your curiosity so thank you so much for speaking with me today and i can't wait to see what you do next and hear what you do next. Thanks for having me an yes. I'm excited to continue my artistic journey wherever it may lead me. Here are some of maples. Words from her writings china submerged half and the meaning of women's suffrage. I plead for wider sphere of usefulness for the lawn submerged women of china. I ask for girls. The open door to the treasury of knowledge the same opportunities for physical development s boys and the same rights of participation in all human activities of which there individually capable the neglect and indifference to women's welfare. In the past must be remedied. Prejudice must be removed and healthy public sentiment created to support the progressive movement to us girls. Especially who on the first to emerge will fall the duties pioneers. And if we do. Our share hours won't be the honor and the glory for no nation can ever make real and lasting progress in civilization a lesson. Women are following close to his men if not actually abreast with them. It is a fact that no matter where we go we cannot escape. Hearing about women's suffrage the idea of women's suffrage at first stood for something else normal strange and extraordinary and so has finally become the word for anything lewis the idea that women should to have or beat anything more than their primitive. Mothers appears at first thought to indeed tragic enough to be comic. But if we sit down and really think it over throwing aside all sentimentalism. We find that it is nothing more than a wider application of ideas of justice and equality. We all believe in the idea of democracy. Women's suffrage is the application of democracy to women. The fundamental principle of democracy is equality of opportunity. I cannot too strongly impress the importance of suffrage for the requirement of women to be worthy citizens and contribute their share to the steady progress of our country tours prosperity and national greatness after graduating from barnard college maple leaf got a phd in economics at columbia university. She was the first chinese woman to do so after her father died in nineteen twenty four. She took over his role as director of the first chinese baptist. Church of new york city. She later founded a chinese community center. Offering vocational and english classes. A health clinic and kindergarten. Dr maple puma. Lee never married and devoted her life to the chinese american community in the united states. Do you know what's happening with. So bob's have your ears missed our original scripted. Audio fiction will come on and listen to the declaration of love anthology the new colossus and the master builder get up to date on patriotic dot com slash artists soapbox and become a patron of the podcast. Please see links in the show notes and artists. Box dot org. You can always reach out to soapbox at g. Mail dot com. Stay in touch bigs friends.

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Angela Davis On Anti-Racism Protests; Drive-In Graduations

Here & Now

43:50 min | 10 months ago

Angela Davis On Anti-Racism Protests; Drive-In Graduations

"From NPR and WBZ. You are tiny Moseley I'm Jeremy Hobson. It's here now. The city of Tulsa Oklahoma is bracing for president trump's first campaign rally in months tomorrow. Coronavirus cases are on the rise in Tulsa, which is also the site of terrible massacre of black people ninety nine years ago this month. The Oklahoma Supreme Court is weighing whether to stop the rally from happening NBC. News, senior politics, editor Beth. Fouhy joins US now. Hi, Beth! Hey Jeremy. And let's start with this rally. The reasons we just talked about, but the trump campaign has been pushing ahead. This is going to be an indoor rally with thousands of people. What is the benefit for president trump of pushing ahead with this despite all the concerns? Yeah, we'll president. Trump really needed morale boost at this point. He's been out of his favorite venues. which are these big every rallies rallies you know for quite some time ever since the coronavirus took hold in this country, and they really give him a lot of energy, they give him a lot of verve to heap, going to remind himself that he has a very large throng of fans that will show up for him anywhere in anywhere in. Cheer him on. We've seen lots of polling out in the last. Last couple of weeks showing president trump falling behind Joe Biden, fairly significantly in in a lot of battleground states in addition to nationally. We know from our reporting that president trump is is quite concerned about the polling that indicates that he's got problems winning a second term, so going out and getting in front of these fans is something. He wants to do just to get that to get that energy back, but as you point out Jeremy, it's a very fraught situation we've. We've seen record numbers of people. Coming up with infections both in Oklahoma, and in the city of Tulsa where he's going to be We've seen a lot of folks. We're going to show up on the streets probably to protest in addition to all those folks who want to go to the rally that could be a potentially combustible situation and president trump. This morning tweeted threatening protesters, saying that that basically he would not put up with. Anything that smacks of of of bad behavior, so we could be in for for quite a weekend. On the Democratic side as we look toward the election about four and a half months from now Minnesota senator. Amy Klobuchar has withdrawn her name from consideration to be vice, president, Joe Biden's running mate and says it's time for a black woman or women of color to be named to the ticket. How much pressure does that add on Biden to now pick a woman of color? Well, we know that president excuse me Vice President Biden has been getting a lot of input from Democrats that especially now given the people that we've seen around issues of race that he really ought to pick a woman of color, and he certainly does have women of color on his list. We know that Senator Comma Heart Harris's on his list. We Know Congressman Val demings from Florida is on his list and likely Atlanta Mayor Kisha bottoms, but keep in mind. Mind Jeremy There are other women on his list who are not black or African American, and we know from our reporting that President Vice President Biden. Really feel strongly that he whomever he chooses has to be somebody who could take over at a moment's notice as vice president, and is somebody that he could work with as president in the Oval Office, and that ultimately those will probably be the factors that help decide the outcome of this of this of this. COMPETITION TO BE HIS NUMBER TWO At somebody who was vice president for eight years. He knows exactly what the job entails, so he? He's looking at a lot of factors there. Meanwhile, we had these Supreme Court decisions this week. The president tweeted this morning that he will soon submit enhanced papers on Daca after the Supreme Court found that he improperly tried to end the DACA program that shields young immigrants known as dreamers from deportation. How hard is he? GonNa push on Daca this point leading up to the election. It's so unclear. I mean he did send out that tweet, but of course president trump doesn't always follow through on things that he says he's going to do in his tweets. It's a difficult situation. I mean even the most. Concerned folks about immigration and illegal immigration. We've seen in polling typically say that they believe dreamers, these kids who were brought to the country as children by their parents and have lived here. Basically, their whole lives are people who should be able to stay so president trump doesn't have that big of a base to work off of in terms of trying to make this a helpful political issue for him. There's just no evidence that anybody outside of the sort of most hardcore immigration rights. Opponents are for preventing these dreamers from staying in the country, so it's it's more than likely that president trump will will step back from this issue. Let me finally. Ask you and we just have about Forty seconds left here about the John Bolton book now the justice. Department is trying to block it from publication, although most of its revelations are already out, wh, how is this all playing out in Washington? Yeah I. Mean basically the the argument to keep it from being published pretty much out the doors. As you mentioned Jeremy, I mean the book is already been shipped some two hundred thousand copies, according to the publisher Simon and Schuster and we know we've seen major news organizations all over the country basically report all the major findings, so at this point, it seems more symbolic to to prevent the release of this book and probably unsuccessful, but obviously it's the what the Justice Department is doing is playing to an audience of one president trump. WHO's quite upset about this book? Will and and many people have said if John. Bolton had so much to say. Why didn't he say it? When the House Democrats asked him to testify in the impeachment inquiry, but I'm sure he'll be asked that in his interviews Beth. Fouhy, senior politics, editor NBC, News and Msnbc Thank you. Thank you? The State of California is reconsidering its ban on affirmative action policies. The state assembly voted this week to send the question of affirmative action back to voters assembly person Shirley Weber introduced the legislation after twenty five years of quantitative and qualitative data. We can see that race. Neutral solutions cannot fix problems steeped in race. California's regressive ban on equal opportunity programs such as affirmative action denies women and people of Color, a level playing field in the workplace and in education. California voters passed proposition two. Oh, nine back in the nineties, banning affirmative action programs for public universities, admitting students and for state. Agencies hiring employees a repeal of prop two. Oh, nine would allow, but not force public institutions to once again consider race in admissions and hiring for more we have reporter Ben Christopher of matters joining us from Berkeley and Ben. This measure comes as our country is reckoning with racial justice. Is that a coincidence? So it's a good question this. This is not the first time that lawmakers and California had tried to repeal the ban on affirmative action, but it's always been an uphill battle, even Democratic California, but this year there clearly is a difference Democrats now hold three out of four seats in both houses of the state legislature, and we have seen a wave of national anti-racism protests, and so I, think a lot of people on both sides of this issue are saying well. Maybe this time it's different this. Proposal was introduced prior to this wave of protest, but I think for supporters. It's come at a good time breakdown for us. The next steps This legislation has already passed the assembly. What what happens now? So the measure as you said has passed the state assembly with two thirds of the vote, which is required, then has to pass the state Senate with two-thirds of the vote, and that vote will likely happen next week, and then it goes before the voters on the November ballot where California voters will finally have a say on whether or not to allow -firmative action. Action California again, and that would require a simple majority, so if fifty percent plus one voters in California approved then prop Joe Nine for mentioned ninety six will be repealed. We heard simply person Weber make the case that race neutral solutions can't solve race problems. What do we know about the effect? The ban on affirmative action has had over the past few decades. Is a good question. There's quite a lot of debate on that issue. But after proposition two and nine went into effect enrollment, of Black Latino and American Indian freshman at the state, public universities did decline, and the decline was particularly sharp at the state's. Most competitive public universities like UC Berkeley, and Ucla, so it's a little tricky to parse out these numbers just because in the years since one thousand, nine hundred California has become a much more originally an ethnically diverse state, so the numbers of particularly Latino students have inched up quite a lot, but according to at least one estimate in a study commissioned by the University of California itself. The affirmative action programs in place before prop nine increased enrollment of Black Latino, an American, Indian students by twelve percent, and so at least by that estimate prop. Joe. Nine had quite a dramatic effect on enrolment. What about opposition to this particular measure, where is that potentially coming from do do we have any sense yet on how Californians will decide this fall? When they vote, so no surprise, there's been quite a lot of push back to this idea it's it's a very controversial issue as My inbox can attest whenever I write about this. What's notable in California is that some of the loudest and most sustained pushback has come from Chinese American community. The issue has been covered extensively in the chinese-language. There's a lot of political organizing on APPs like we chat and I think the obvious reason is that Asian Americans and particularly Chinese Americans are over represented at the most competitive public schools in California. meaning that they make up a large share of the student body than they do of the California population as a whole so I think. Think there's a real concern that attained at these very competitive schools. There's this zero sum aspect to it, and if you start letting in more students who were underrepresented. That's going to come at the expense of those who are overrepresented, but I also don't want to over generalize chinese-american and other Asian American social justice groups are also part of the coalition backing the effort, so it's not a model community of course, seven other states currently have a ban on affirmative action. Do you think what's happening here in California will have a ripple effect. Well, it certainly could a lot of those states introduced those bands after prop two. Oh nine, so there's this historical component which California has led the way on the issue of banning affirmative action so certainly if California Harrison's that it would be a symbolically very important I think that's reporter. Been Christopher with cal matters in Berkeley California. Thank you so much! Ben! Hey all I'm Sam Sanders host of it's been a minute. There is a lot going on in the world so I'm show my guess tonight. Make sense of the news and culture through conversation. It feels like we're living in three movies at once. That's, it can put it like judge movie. It feels like a spike Lee movie and it feels like a Michael. Like. Every Tuesday and Friday listen and subscribe now to. It's been a minute from NPR. This week we've heard a lot about what police reform could look like, but our next guest says there are limits to how reform can address the racism inherent policing Angela Davis one of the most influential activists in the United States her work around. Of Gender, race class in prisons has influenced social movements for generations. Forty years ago Davis was a fugitive on the FBI's most wanted list once caught. She faced the death penalty in California and was later acquitted. Urges. She spent her life fighting to change the criminal justice system and Angela Davis joins us. Now welcome to hear now. Thank you very much. It's a exposure to be on the program. You've been an activist for almost half a century. Does this moment feel different for you? You know this moment does feel very different from anything I've experienced in the past. This isn't extraordinary moment. A witch has brought together a whole number of issues of course I. Don't know whether it would have unfolded as it did. If if not for the terrible covid nineteen pandemic, which gave us the opportunity to collectively witness. One of the most brutal examples of state violence it's a moment when we are recognizing that it is important now to start the work that should have been done over one hundred fifty years ago in the immediate mass of slavery. You were an active member of the Communist. Party as well as the Black Panther party which J. Edgar Hoover called at the time. The most dangerous threat to the nation it was also one of the many organizations. The FBI sought to disrupt under its counter intelligence program. I'm really thinking back to just a few years ago. When black lives matter was described as a terrorist organization. Do you see the parallels here and do you think we're seeing a possible shift in that thinking well? I won't say I pull. The people have always organized whether we're talking about the Sunday schools during the era of slavery were black women a top to children and adults how to read. Whether we we're. We're talking about the the era of the the rise of the urban. League in the end Lacey WB VOICE IDA B wells in struggle against lynching for hundreds of years, black people have passed down this collective yearning for freedom from one generation to the next. We doing now, what should have been done in the aftermath of slavery? I've heard you say we can't eradicate racism without first eradicating something you call. Alyssum, can you explain racial capitalism? The term racial capitalism is designed to encourage people to think about the ways in which capitalism and racism are interlinked. Slavery was the very foundation of the emergence of the industrial revolution of capitalism has always taken advantage of and exacerbated existing racism 's. but what you're saying too is that it's also important as many people are now taking a deeper look and being critical of their own roles in upholding racism that they understand how capitalism is intertwined into that. Yeah, and it's it's. It's difficult of course because we live in a world that has been basically created by capitalism I like to use the example of The taps on immigrants that have emanated from a this administration. And to point out that just as immigration and Migration particularly from the Central America in other parts of this region, but also in other parts of the world that migration has been occasion by the fact that people's home economies have been completely disrupted in often destroyed by the impact of capitalism, but I think that when we say that we are opposed to mass incarceration, we also have to be willing to say that we are opposed to the repressive and racist treatment of immigrants. I think that This more global perspective, which has offered by feminism helps us to understand how our lives are intertwined with those of people all over the world. I WanNa talk to you a little bit about police departments and the prison system, so you've said that both of those systems are quote, the most dramatic expression of structural racism and that in order to fix it. We have to have an abolitionist imagination. Can you explain what you mean by this well? Yes, an one raises a demand such as deep fund. The police people tend to think only about the negative process of getting rid of the that institution not about. The way in which we can re imagine the meaning of Public Safety, and so I think now we can think about funding. Agencies and individuals and organizations that will help address issues of health physical health. This is the opportunity of for us to begin to re imagine the meaning of of of of these. States president trump will be visiting Tulsa Oklahoma tomorrow. He had originally planned to visit on June teeth. which as we know is today? The celebration of the end of Slavery In Texas? This is significant because Tulsa is home to one of the worst acts of racist violence against black people in American history. Your thoughts on the significance of this, what is so exciting about the current moment is that? People who have adopted a more progressive view of history and people who recognize that now we have to begin the process of rooting out of racism in our country are increasingly representing the consensus. But what I do think is that we have to vote for ourselves and for our own ability to continue to engage in activism and the conversations. That will allow us to envision the possibility of a society that is free of racism and. Sexism and Homophobia and transphobia up. So. I think that the next election is going to be about. Aiding. That will allow a those a calling for the abolition of prisons as we know it to begin the hard work of of creating new institutions. Does it feel surreal. Because as you mentioned. This has been a major topic of discussion for over sixty years. Now you are a champion of this idea for really long time, and now in a matter of thirty days sixty days were now having true conversations where where there's action. Well, you Yeah, it's it's it's. It's very bizarre. It is kind of surreal, but I would also say that. Many of us have been making the point for a very long time. that. Activists who are truly committed to changing the world should recognize that the works that we often do that receives no public recognition. Can't even actually matter. And the protests and the up surgeon activism that has happened. As a result of the catalytic got impact. The police murder of George Floyd in and the murders of Brianna, Taylor, and I'm not armory, and and Tony mcdaid and. Ratio. Brooks, the response would not have been what it has become. If people had not been doing on the ground work I am just so happy that I have lived long enough to witness this moment and that I see myself as witnessing this moment for all of those who lost their lives in the struggle over the decades. I do want to ask you about that. You know I mean during the sixties and seventies, you saw several black activists die at the hands of police and other things and today, several black activists who were active during and after the protests in Ferguson Missouri have died, and many more have chronicled their bouts with depression. You kind of spoke to what drives you, but really what has kept you going all of these years and really what I hear from you is perhaps not a sense of optimism, but a sense of hope a sense of hope, yes. I think ultimately we all have to be optimistic as no doubt, so many black people who were enslaved believed two hundred three hundred years ago. That treat 'em was possible. And I think that younger activists have learned that that it is important to address depression and trauma and to do that within the context of our organizations that our movements and not assume that people have an individual responsibility to take care of their mental health. Make that a collective responsibility. That's Angela Davis Scholar Educator and activist and thank you so much for this conversation. Absolutely and thank you for inviting me to be on the program. Beijing is a good example of how difficult it is to completely stop the spread of Corona virus for nearly two months. The city hadn't reported any new cases of Covid nineteen but last week, a fresh cluster of cases emerge in some lockdown restrictions had to be reimposed. Joining us now is NPR's Emily Fang in Beijing Ellie. What is the situation there today? Does it appear that this new outbreak is under control? That's what Chinese disease control officials are trying to tell the general population today. A senior epidemiologist with the state government said everything is quote under control. They have been mass testing neighborhoods that have been designated as high and medium risk, because there had been a handful of positive tests in those areas. These are free today. They've discovered twenty five new cases in the city. That's about the they discovered the day before, but that brings the weekly total to just over two hundred, not good, but it's not horrible compared to what you're seeing still in some other countries. And they're saying that this new outbreak came out of a food market now is is it a similar kind of market to where people think? The virus originated in Wuhan. No in the sense that it's much much larger, it's at least twenty times. The size of the seafood market where the virus originated in Ohio and I've been to this Beijing market. It's called. The itsel seafood vegetables fruit its supply. Basically every, grocery, store and smaller local market with the fresh produce that people eat in the city every day. And authorities so far, think fat. The virus was somehow imported from Europe into China. They still don't know how it got to China. What kind of food may have transported it or whether? It was on packaging? They know this because the strain of the virus they've identified from samples in the market resemble strains that are prevalent in Europe more research they've done today shows that the strain actually predates the strains that have shown up in Europe. Suggesting that this strain began in China to Europe and then came back to Beijing. and. So, what do the new restrictions the lockdown? What does it look like now? It's a bit of a soft lockdown, so they designated some neighborhoods in the city that are higher risk because they've had a handful of cases schools. They're movie theaters gyms those have been closed down temporarily. People have been told. Do not travel outside of the city. Many other Chinese cities of said if Beijing resident comes to them that that Beijing person will have to quarantine for fourteen days. This comes during a holiday weekend. Actually next week is Dragon Boat Festival so many people in the country are hoping that terrorists would start traveling again spending money, but that's probably not going to be the case anymore. and again they're doing mass testing and certain neighborhoods. Now before this happened before this reimposition of lockdown measures just give us a sense of what it was like. Because at this point in this country, you can dine outside at least where I am. You can dine. Outside can't go inside. You gotTa wear masks everywhere. Were you still in that situation where you back to kind of things were normal again. No the most painful frustrating thing as things had just gotten back to normal the week before this cluster broke out in Beijing, people had just taken down the last of the temperature checks, the last of the world off gates, too many of the residential and commercial complex across the city. You could finally move around freely and eat together in groups when this cluster broke out in the market. Those NPR's Emily Fang in Beijing Emily. Thank you thanks journey. And it has been an extraordinary week at the US, Supreme Court with two very big rulings, one upholding deferred action for childhood arrivals of Dhaka another protecting lgbtq employees from workplace discrimination, both with the courts liberals on the winning side joining us now is NPR legal affairs. Correspondent needed Totenberg. Haina. Hi there well, let's start with that Daca case. A five to four ruling with chief, Justice John Roberts, writing the opinion and joined by the liberal justices on the court, but Robert's made clear that the ruling was based on procedural issues. Where does this go from here? Well, it's a temporary reprieve. I think it's unlikely that the trump administration can get its act together to Redo the whole process of unwinding Daca a by January, but certainly if he's re-elected, he'll plan to do that and may try to before that. We know that Donald Trump doesn't like being repudiated and they may try, but there are all kinds of procedural hurdles that they never crust, and some of those things are very boring. It all concerns, the Administrative Procedures Act. It's exactly the kind of thing that Chief Justice Roberts referred to as squaring the corners, and in this case cutting the corners, and he's a big believer in things like the administrative procedures act to control the executive branch to make sure that it acts an orderly way doesn't run roughshod over the other branches of government. In this case after all the administration, the trump administration even argued to begin with the court had no jurisdiction here. The court said yes. We do have jurisdiction. You didn't do it right. Go back to square one and try again. What about the other big ruling, this week on Monday six to three ruling on lgbtq protections in the workplace, the majority opinion was written by the conservative justice. Neal, gorsuch appointee of president trump. Did that surprise you? That when actually surprised me less than the fact that Chief Justice Roberts joined him because at the oral argument, he indicated at least some tentative view. He might be thinking that looked. The words of the statute are very clear. They bar discrimination based on sex period end of subject and the only exception, really into law is for houses of worship will in both of those cases. You had justice Roberts siding with the Liberals. I know you're going to say no to this just because it's not just these two cases, but is Roberts the new Kennedy. Look. I'm not a mind reader and the position of chief justice is in many ways different from every other justice. You're not just a lone wolf. The court is in a very precarious situation right now the way that the vacancy created by the death of Antony Scalia was filled with the Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell blocking any consideration of President Obama's nominee for almost a year, and then the appointment and bitter confirmation process for Brad Kavanagh a year later after Justice Kennedy retired and that vacancy was filled by. President, TRUMP All of that has led to the Democrats being infuriated and the hard left has been pushing various proposals to alter the stock actual structure of the court at the same time that the hard rights influence on judicial nominees has only grown and become a major, maybe the major talking point for the GOP and its base, and not just on social issues, but for the business community to so Roberts is having to navigate some very tricky scholes in order to protect the court from attacks on his legitimacy, and to ensure that the American public sees it as a fair. Institution, that. Law and applying the law and restricting the president and restricting congress where necessary at the same time he's a conservative with a small see. And remember he cast a similar vote to this Daca vote a year ago. When he wrote an opinion, telling the administration that its justification for adding the citizenship question to the census were essentially not believable and that if the administration wanted to add the question, it had to go back to square one and Redo the process, and by then it was of course too late to do that. Nina. The Justice chose not to hear ten gun rights cases which were under consideration. It's been a decade since they've taken one up. Why did they choose not to hear these cases think. My suspicion is that the chief justice did exert some leadership here. inside the conference as it's called the justices when they meet all by themselves every week, and that would have applied to also the qualified immunity cases there were I think eight of those pending before the court involving the standards for getting compensation for police brutality winning in court lawsuits, and they didn't take any of those cases, either and my guess, and it's really just a guess. Is that chief justice talked to the other members of the court about how this? Isn't a good time for us to go looking for fights especially in an election year with an election upcoming, it's also possible in the gun cases that the four justices who have expressed support for reexamining Second Amendment jurisprudence. Those justices are not sure about vote. They're not sure they have a fifth vote. So that's possible, too. That is NPR legal affairs? Correspondent Nina Totenberg Nina. Thank you, thank you. There are about three hundred drive in movie. Theaters left in the country and a theater in Port Townsend. Washington just came to the rescue for the city's eighty four graduating high school seniors, the drive in hosted a physically distance graduation for the students and Tom Bonzi from the northwest news. Network Cintas this audio post card. My name is Kerry, earhart and I'm the principal here at Port Townsend High School so when the school closure was announced I mean it was a you know it was a shock and I think like all high school principals, one of the first things that popped into our head was what are we gonNa do about graduation and the message that came through loud and clear was what they wanted more than anything was to be together, and so that was then kind of the impetus behind how we gonNA. How are we gonNA. Make that happen for these kids. My name is Rik Wiley. I'm a third generation on our operator of the wheel and motor movie here in Port Townsend. We've been here since one thousand, nine, hundred, fifty three. I got a phone call from career. Heart, the principal Port Townsend High School, and we talked about possibly putting together an outdoor graduation commencement ceremony at the wheel end because everyone can be in their car. And so I said absolutely. We've been thinking about that already, and not only. Would you like to do it, but I'd like to go ahead and donate that as a poor townsend alumni myself. Good evening, everyone. And welcome to the one hundred thirtieth commencement exercises for Port Townsend Highschool. People are going to be in their cars listening to their FM Stereo to the various speeches that are being made on the stage, but we think we've got a natural setting for a social distancing venue, so that everyone is comfortable and goes home, safe and sound. Good Evening Class of twenty twenty for those of you who don't know. My name is Kinkaid Gould, and I have the honour presenting speech you as Valedictorian. With the emergence of covid nineteen, our senior year at high school has been anything but normal. Although we've all been affected in different ways, we've lost access to physical school and a place where we could see each other in person everyday. We've lost spring sports. We Lost Prom, but let's not forget what amazing and memorable experiences we've shared. They say. You can't go home again. Is Head. Come back when last time. I'm Lily Montgomery and I'm a graduating senior at Port Townsend High School in Washington Yeah Two of my brothers. One of them's in the vaccine. They've graduated before me and I've watched both of their graduations and Both of them were very different for me. Because we're in such a time right now we're coming together is much more difficult and much more imperative than usual, and I feel like the fact that we've done that for graduation has just made it that much more impactful for all of the students. And this I had a lot of people told me this graduation is going to be more memorable on most of what do you have a sense of that yet? I certainly think so yeah I. Don't think I'm kidding. Forget this for a long time. In the sounds of Port Townsend Washington drive and graduation. Thanks to the northwest news networks Tom Bonzi to see photos of the ceremony. Go to hugh now dot Org. Civil rights protests throughout the country have forced a reckoning with racism both past and present, and that includes. TV shows that are just a few decades old, but haven't aged while to put it mildly. What's the role of media that seemed harmless back then, but as disturbing or overtly racist or homophobic today? NPR's TV critic Eric Duggan's has thought a lot about this, and he joins us now. Hey, Eric Tie. Okay so since we've been sheltering in place in quarantine. Share some of my favorite childhood, TV shows and movies with my kids, and immediately within the first few minutes. It's clear that so many of them have not aged well like. This movie we're about to talk about which is arguably. Even bad back in nineteen, eighty six and that soul man, which is. A black face comedy about in a fluent white man who passes as a black person to get scholarship money for Harvard. Here's a bit of the trailer. Harvard. Great these are the eighties. Madison Ashby decades with watching. All it took was little, so I'd like to meet my good friend Kareem Abdul. All the Oh my God oh Mike. How are we not outside with cosby decade? The cars we decade. Was this a big deal back then. Was it a controversy back then because I remember when it came out, and I'll admit I i. actually really liked it, but I was a kid. Yeah, it was controversial. I was I was in college when it came out the conceit the movie is that in order to get a scholarship to go to Harvard. He had to pretend to be black and so I I do remember G- because I was in college at the time that a lot of black college students were insulted by that because number one. It wasn't true there. They're tons of scholarships out there for A. A white people their scholarships out there for people who are hours to sentence to said, and then sort of beyond that I. I'm surprised and a little disappointed in myself that the whole black face element of it was something that I didn't really react that much to you know we knew I knew what black face was of course, but as I remember it and again I was at a college in Indiana I remember. My friend's objections to that film was what it was implying about. How much easier it was to financial support to go to college. If you were black and we just felt that wasn't true. And then there were there were shows that were groundbreaking for their time like Sanford and son, which which actually really opened the door to black, center, TV comedies, but they can also fall into stereotypes, can't they? Yeah they can and. What I liked about Sanford and son is is that it was a starring vehicle for Red Fox, who was an amazing nightclub comedian? But even as a child when I was watching it. It reminded me a little bit of a much earlier comedy. You Know Amos and Andy was black center comedy as well that that featured an entirely black cast, but the characters were so stereotypical that the end of Lacey Pe- protested the show you know. I'm not saying Sanford and son was that bad, but there was a part of that. That felt kind of weird to me. I was really conflicted when. When I watched it as a kid, because I love the actors and the character so much, but I felt like the setting and some of the jokes they were telling We're kind of insulting. Yeah, I mean, even as we go into the late eighties in the early nineties in living color, which is still a beloved show that you can still catch in many places. I showed some of the sketches to my children, and they just had blank looks on their faces and I realized there are so many things they thought well. Why is this even to you, mom, we don't. Making fun of people like this in this away well first of all. When you're up here and I can say this guy because I have four kids. Nothing you do is cool or funny to them so. Stay a little bit of that with a grain of salt is what I would say, but in living color was an interesting thing because they would push the envelope in some of their sketches, particularly sketch men on film where they had to black gay men reviewing films, and I think we have a clip where they talk about another forty eight hours, the Eddie Murphy film must check it up. Eddie Murphy was back in another forty eight hours soon. I'm sorry. This movie just got off on the wrong track I feel that they should've spent more time with the real story is in the prisons. Bassim all sweaty. Altogether No. With no one to turn to other. So. If, we're being honest, black culture has struggled with homophobia, and so to have one of the most beloved shows by black viewers present the stereotypical vision of by gay man. You know you can look back now and say man that that was not a good thing to do so, Eric. How do you approach introducing these problematic favorites to young viewers? Yeah, that's that's a tough one to you know. It's about context so the best thing to do. Do is to just you tell young people We're about to watch X, Y and Z. This is pretty problematic for XYZ reasons, but I loved it when I was a kid I'm wondering what you think I actually enjoy sharing those experiences with my son. just as long as we're careful to talk about it when the material comes up. That's NPR's TV critic Eric Dagens as always. Thank you so much all right, thank you. And, here now is a production of NPR. WB You are in association with the BBC World Service. I'm Tanya Moseley. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This is here and now.

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Arthur Dong

Asian America: The Ken Fong Podcast

1:33:18 hr | 1 year ago

Arthur Dong

"Beans everyone visit Asian American Kim Jong podcast and I'm your host. Ken Fung Welcome to a brand new year. It is twenty twenty and this is our first episode of this New Year episode. Two hundred and twenty four this episode features my guest Arthur. Dong Arthur has been on before he was one of my earliest guests but he is such a productive dude. You know that there's always something new that I can find to promote for Arthur. Just a couple of brief factoid about Arthur. He's an Oscar nominated film maker and an award winning author whose work centers on Asian America and Anti Gay prejudice one of the things that I really find endearing about Arthur. Is that He is just fascinated with old historic photos and articles and and collectibles About the Chinese in America especially in entertainment and you have to see some of his earlier. A- documentary films about this but This episode is really to promote is Latest Book Hollywood Chinese the Chinese in American feature films. And if after listening to this episode. You'd like to get to know Arthur and take a deeper dive into all of his Passionate research into Chinese Americans and their involvement in the movie industry going all the way back to the silent era. Mark your calendars for Tuesday January. Twenty eighth at seven PM at the Public Library in San Marino on Huntington drive. And he's going to be giving a lecture there and I'm sure he's going to bring books of his That you can buy it. I'm sure he'd autograph them for you. You can also check the show notes for some subsequent appearances that Arthur will be making in southern California again Talking about his research showing some slides some Movie Clips As well as selling in signing books so please check it out as I have promised For those of you who take the time to rate and review US especially on Itunes I have a promise to read the reviews and I'm happy to say that There are two new reviews. One is from a fellow. Asian-american podcastone Andy Wong. And this is what he wrote after giving us a five star rating if every independent podcast her put as much creative energy into a show. As Keong I speculate that the world would be a better place can is smart. Thank you thoughtful and inquisitive as a host and interviewer episode to nineteen with Marie. Myung Oakley was timely and really good thanks for consistently sharing conversations in stories through in Asian American Lens Bravo. Thank you so much for that Stella Review and one more from. Dd FIESTA. And I know who she has. Were facebook friends and she titles this. Review Love Jenny. Dorsey gives us five. Stars and says episode. Two hundred twenty two was absolutely perfect. I'm a huge fan of Ken. Fong and his ability to bring solid talent to the table. Giannis experiences resonate with mine. And I'm not even Asian but we can all relate to food. I think it's a genius way to connect with three motions and her life. If you haven't listened to this episode yet do yourself a favor and give it a go. You'll not be disappointed. Ken Fong the first. Sixteen minutes of this episode is what keeps me coming back. Keep standing in the gap for those in need. I'll be right there with you so again. Thank you for such a wonderful review. It's such an encouragement to allison and myself to keep doing the work that we do because we we love Knowing that we're making a difference out there not just for our guests but for all of your listeners. Out there and please keep spreading the word we want more and more people to be tuning in and benefiting as well. I spent the week after Christmas. Literally starting on the twenty sixth of December volunteering at Fiesta. Pray floats in Irwindale California This is the second year where I have shown up for. The Chinese American heritage. Foundation's rose break float Last year it was to commemorate the One hundred fiftieth anniversary of the joining of the transcontinental railroad. And if you follow that parade story at all. It was the longest of float to parts in the history of the parade and through some kind of mishap at that grand turn from Orange Grove Boulevard on the Colorado Boulevard A little fire broke out. Little Fire. Right and The float refused to go after that. So I was a huge disappointment and right away. Wilson and Esther's ely thousand wife. Who are the founders of this Ca Hf They determined that they're gonNA move for Neck and look back then. I can assume yes to floats. And they had this other idea Which was to coincide with Congress and our President Signing the affirmation of congressional gold medal recognition to Chinese American World War Two vets. My late father and Wilson and Esther these huge very inclusive people And so they did that on their first flood damage. He could have just made it. Chinese people on the floats. The Chinese people were kept out of the Golden Spike picture. But they didn't do that and they invited Mormon descendants and native American descendants Irish descendants. And what have you to be on their float? That didn't go very far. And so this year they they expanded it. The flow scene was American heroes but it was especially putting the emphasis on World War. Two vets who are not white and so- Filipino Americans or Filipinos at the time The native American Code Talkers. The tuskegee airmen The Japanese American four forty Second Regimental Combat Team and and also the Chinese vets right so last year. They didn't know me. I didn't know them. I showed up several days. I did the decorating but then when I was done with my shift I also had my camera gear. You know me and I started taking pictures of the making of the float and I was sharing them on social media especially my facebook post and tagging. Estrin Wilson and appreciated. They liked it and so when I heard that This past year that they were getting ready to a second float. I contacted them and volunteered. My services not to decorate. 'cause you know anyone can decorate? It's just seven hour shifts but I volunteered to photograph every day. So I'll be there every day. Not Double Chefs of total fourteen hours. But I I would scramble to shifts and then I would shoot the day when the judges come which is December thirty first and then. I was hoping that They would get me press privileges to be able to shoot the float as it actually made that fateful turn from Orange Grove to Colorado Boulevard. And it all happened okay. And and so. This is kind of in one sense. It's mind boggling to me that you know a year ago I was on the sidewalk with a million others spectators waiting to see the floats and the here the bands and and all that stuff and taking my pictures of everybody else and then this year on New Year's Day I have a press credential and I'm being invited into the corral at the base of the media tower. Read at that famous turn. All the TV cameras are and then along with Corky Lee. Who is a very well known freelance photojournalist from New York that the lease had hired we clambered up into kind of the premier platform which is only really only one stage removed from the street level. And we're able to both photograph and then in my case also videotape. The float are float making the turn and then it was a matter of running down the stairs with all your gear and You know the plan was to keep ahead of float because otherwise all you're going to see is the back of a flow right and what we realized was the float which is only supposed to move it Maximova two and a half miles an hour. It seemed to be moving faster than that. Or actually we run much slower than we think and we barely caught it as it made the turn and then we had to run under the grandstands right We had to been find a way to get out into place where we can shoot and you know. We had been told that they didn't allow people to travel with to float out in the street with cameras. They had people who walked alongside Every float so I didn't know if I was going to get in trouble or whatever but after a couple of blocks of trying not to get people mad at me because I'm standing up in front of them taking pictures. I take a chance man and I just started booking it down the street like just to the left of the gutter running as fast as I could with about twenty five pounds of camera equipment on me To get ahead of our float and then set up and crouch down so that again. I'm not a obstructing people's view and shoot the people on the TV side of the float. Right which is the south side of the float and it was kind of funny. Because after several instances of them kind of looking wearing this bright yellow Parka It was pretty easy to see me. If you're is kind of glance in my direction and after a couple of times of me magically appearing I could I could actually see the reaction of the people riding on the float and walking beside the float on that side. They were shocked. Like how did I get there again right now? One of the other things that I was concerned about is whether it be able to get to the opposite side whether it was even okay to cross the street and so I just said again. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. So I waited. There was a little bit of a low and things weren't quite moving at their pace and then I just ran across the street got to the other side and was able to take my pictures as it turned out. It's a good thing I did. Because the the other Photographer that had been asked to shoot this particular float. He just couldn't keep up as he told me later and he said. Yeah you know what I I gave up and I went to at breakfast and all along. I'm thinking Oh you know we're getting at least two two of US shooting this float and it turned out that I was the only one now. Thank goodness I do all this Viking. Every week with most of it on an e bike because it wasn't easy but I was able to do it and I I probably made it a two miles. You know in in in into the parade route before it just seemed like I wasn't going to be able to shoot from the street anymore and as I got enough right. So it's an honor and is mind boggling that I ended up being able to do that when a year ago. There's no chance right and yet on the other hand this is my point. My point is it's not an accident. It's not a mistake i. I've continued to work on my photography and my skills both with the camera and with the computer to to kind of make the pictures even better with little tweaking. And it's not just my immagination people who've seen the the stuff that I do what I capture So the lease like yeah. Okay sure you know and I am volunteering. Not asking for them to pay me at. It's a privilege is my contribution to help make this thing special. But I also showed up the year before and I didn't just you know. Put the seeds in pedals on stuff. I actually got to know the co-sponsors of the float we had some ernest conversations. And so I wasn't just this facing the crowd that was plastering stuff on their float They came to understand that I shared a lot of their passions and I really believe in what they were doing. I use my social media platform to promoted them on the podcast and so I think another lesson here is on the one hand. You have to be a little lucky on the other hand. There's no luck in terms of getting good at something that other people also value and then not to not be afraid of suggesting something that maybe they're not thinking of you know creating a job for yourself and I've gotten pretty good at that especially with with my photography. I just find that a lot of people just you know they don't think about that. That might be extra special to preserve some of these special moments. So anyway I I am so thrilled that I was able to do that. And Right now. I'm working on putting together and eleven by fourteen very special memory book a like a Coffee Table Book that I want to give as a gift to the lease and they told them that this past week and I said you know if you can think of anyone else that might want to book let me know before ordering because you know. I can probably get a bit. I know I'll get a better price per book if I'm ordering at least ten. And that's when they said. Oh you know actually. I think that might make a great gift for some bar. Major donors so you know I told him why can't give that to you for free and they don't expect it but again it's it's one of those things where it started off with. Mijas offering them a gift of my handiwork and taking me time to edit the photos and assemble this book. But it's also turning out that it's it's a little bit of a project that's GonNa make me a little bit coin but more importantly it's GonNa help me share my love for capturing special moments in beautiful ways and it's not just going to be stuck in my hard drive so maybe that's the symbol and the in the lesson. I want to leave with your is like so many of our good ideas and great things are Kinda stuck in our brains like our hard drives and we gotta get out there and we. We have to kind of have a longer timeframe than than just in the moment but it won't necessarily take as long as some of US think. It was only a year to go from the sidewalk to the press tower. I I'm kind of expecting this stuff now because I understand how it works. I'll be fined some lesson here. Some encouragement gotta work on your stuff but at the same time. Don't be afraid of offering it as a commodity especially When you're not charging for it you'd be surprised. How many people find that very attractive? Oh my guest today is Arthur. Arthur is one of those rare creatures because he's been addressed before and we only aspect people are there we go creature that there's just so much going on in your work and your life and your contributions that you merit a return okay. Okay it'd be returning creature that I think that's the first time someone that's been a creature creature from the black says we're going to talk to the yellow yellow look good and I like that now. I I became aware of you and your work with Forbidden City. Usa and I went to hear you do a lecture and I've seen the movie the book and in that case. I had no idea that there was a Chinese American nightclub scene until I saw your work Okay and that's and that's when I told you as I watched the some of the clips. It's like Oh actually no one of those former dancers dotty Murray. Oh Yes yes yes. There was like wait a minute. She lived a block from the little Chinese baptist. Church where I grew up in Sacramento and I went to church with her kids kids including Naureen. Marie yeah who helped you. You know stuff. Yeah so so I was thinking okay. So that was that was unexpected connection. I. I learned something about the nightclub scene that I didn't know and then I found I had a connection and then later on I found out that my dad used to date one of the Forbidden City. Dance which one I don't know because my mother shut down picture my crop up one day with him in ours. Yeah Yeah So. So there's that and then comes this book. Hollywood Chinese the Chinese and American feature films and I'm flipping through this and what an amazing collection of over like five hundred posters and photographs and I come across a picture of Benson. Fong one of them with actors. I realize he's date my aunt. Audrey in Sacramento. Yeah inside so I find this connection photo of him but she used to tell me when flower drum selling came out because he played the Father. Right she goes. Oh see that guy before. I married your Uncle Henry dish. No no no no. I don't think that was allowed in those days. So anyway I just I keep finding these personal connections to the work that you're doing which which I love. Okay THIS STU. More to be had probably next. We'll see what happens what you're working on next. Hollywood Chinese this just came out yes and it is like a coffee table sized book five pounds. Oh Yeah I was trying to read it without on my lap and it was like okay. My legs are going to sleep. But but I'm going to tell you Folks if if you have any kind of curiosity about the history of Chinese in the whole film scene this is a must have book. I mean you you you have to go through it you have to own. It need to attitude your library because without this. I don't know that we would know in one place. All that happened here yet. And I'm hoping he had not only for those who are interested in Chinese or Asian American history in Hollywood but Hollywood film history in general. Or if you're in history globally because a couple of stories are transnational as well yes happening in Hong Kong and and of course. The directed like angry or Justin Lin. The they came from Taiwan. Yeah so this is transnational story as well. Yeah and it's it comes all the way up to what's happening now. I mean you have stuff in there the farewell you have crazy rich. Asians right and so I think for people who aren't as let's say our age or older they may connected that and I think it's still an amazing look backwards to see how we got to where we are today and and what just a couple of days ago. I had a meeting at the academy on. I'm on the Inclusion Committee at the Academy Museum and colleague and I were talking about flour Johnson. She's saying I've been meeting with writers and developing some projects and bring Flou- Johm saw and they draw blank. I said what what and they were. Asian American writers. As how can they draw a blank? But you know it's I think it's reflective of how we see history in this country as Americans. That history sometimes isn't emphasized in the classroom. So when we this saying we need to know where we came from so we can move forward her Sharon. That's always my passionate about history is. How do we move forward without? Knowing where we came from our daughter's twenty now and just in film in general I feel like I need her to go backwards and watch some classic American movies just because they're part of the lexicon right the talk bout rocky you know and it's like okay. I've never seen rocky so I think flower drum song is in that same category as as an Asian American young woman like who has an interest in her culture and identity and is crazy for K pop and all that stuff is like. Oh at the same time. You may find some of this hokey but understand when it was made but people are going to refer back to this film and other films right because they were groundbreaking for a reason and they're steeped in the historical cultural and social history of of people in America. In a you bring up the word. Lexicon is a good word to use because I have a son in highschool now in tracking what he is taught in world history and I wanted to make sure that certain parts of the world are covered. And when the non I'm questioning. Well why aren't you covering the Holocaust in the genocide in Cambodia? For example Yeah Same thing with English classes. Ymca Shakespeare but there are other global authors. That should be taught and say it goes online with the subject. And and I think Asian American or Asian history has not been an integral part of the lexicon of American education. Yeah Yeah I mean that's that's a whole nother podcast. But I'm with you on that part of part of how I look at that as this white normativity isn't isn't white supremacy. I like that word. Yeah this is. This is normative history. The other stuff are outliers. Maybe you right right. Yeah and I think it's our job and our meaning people of many backgrounds to change that position or that the outcast point of view and say. Well no this is us this all of us. Yeah well. Let's go back to the beginning of when Chinese were in Hollywood making films because To my mind they weren't okay. So where do you want to start with that one thousand nine hundred seventeen? Were you talking geographically? Hollywood oh you talking to film industry just film industry this you know what their earliest that. I know of would-be million Wong WHO UP IN OAKLAND? California we're in La so up in Oakland California in one thousand nine hundred. Nineteen she finish a production called occur kwan and as far as we know the very first feature film produced directed written and starring Chinese Americans and this is nine hundred seventeen in Oakland California Broadcast Bay from San Francisco for those. That don't know female yes and and for American film history wanted the first if not the first handful of women directors in the Sodden. Error is an amazing story. That isn't in history books Bet But I hope will change now. How did you find out about it? And were you able to uncover any existing surviving clips of this mood well? I had been researching my documentary. Hollywood Chinese for ten years and I purposely took a long time doing that because I knew that that was an untold history that needed to be towed correctly and correctly according to our point of view and the Chinese American community these particularly historians and academics new. I was working on this and one day. The Chinese American Historical Society of America Museum. Yes San Francisco Kauffman said. Listen these these. Women have these reels of film that their mother started in nineteen seventeen. What what is this in? Luckily at that time I was a governor at the Academy motion-picture Sciences. I'm working with the film. Academy okay. The film archives in New about the need for preservation and really was made aware of how important it was for us to preserve film history. And I'm merely said we'll get to them. And they have surviving nitrate reels not nitrate film star made earlier in film history that was explosive literally explosive. And there was a couple reels from nine hundred seventeen of this film to Chris. Kwon clan and I immediately got permission to bring it down to film archive And preserved it and now there's but thirty five minutes that we can see what's going on And that may mean Wong produce directed and wrote and she is even acting as the villainous. As far as we can tell. Now if I remember correctly Your Book said that from what you can tell. There were multiple real right. So yeah because the original material we had had the two years we had were number. One was numbered. I think number six or seven probably not I think seven so we knew there were seven reels because of that evidence and we knew that it was that there were enter titles which are. Deci THE CARDS DIALOGUE. That silent films used and we we determined the date because at a film has these code numbers on edge and we looked up the code numbers of via Kodak and we determined that the stock was made in nineteen sixteen in one thousand nine hundred nineteen. Wow now tell us. What did you learn about Marian? I mean how did she amazing? She was born and raised in San Francisco to a pretty well to do family but the earthquake happened. Nineteen O six thousand six Kurth Greg and then they moved over to Oakland where they actually had a business as well and it was a restaurant in the theater district of Oakland and a lot of this is kind of you had to guess what was going on because unfortunately millions wall and the actress her fans via long where whose family gave me. The reels of film didn't record an oral history of what they were doing and polly was that because they were ashamed of what they did and why because there was a lot of money put into the film we can tell that we know that history a lot of family members who are well to do business. People in debate area invested the money in project and it was very elaborate. You can see the costumes and sets in when Marion wrong. Took it to New York. We have documentation of this to try to sell the film. No one bought it. And it just got shelved so in talking to the daughters of the actress violent long They do be called that their their mom. And Violet in filmmaking Mariam. We're ashamed of what happened to embarrassed because it was a failure. You know they lost face. Yeah and never really talked about it and they showed in their lifetimes. They showed a couple of times to relatives but really it never got out. There was considered a failure and shame But you've done something you've worked with somebody like new score or something like we can actually see some. I mean I was just astounded by discovery and I did what I the as much as I could get it out again and So the academy took it on as a project and it took a long time. I mean do each frame and in film for those who don't know they're twenty four pictures per second. That's quite it's called moving pictures and that's so each frame had preserved and restored it was tedious longtime but they took the time to do it and now it's beautiful what they've restore beautiful. We have on thirty five millimeter. Film and I- commissioned a silent film composer to compose a new score to what was restored. So it is out. It's out as part of the Hollywood Chinese DVD That people could get online at Amazon. And what's wonderful is just think it was last year but the New York Times had a special feature article about women filmmakers. You really should know about any listed. Miriam Law and I thought well you know. He took a century before she got her notice and and and to be acknowledged what she accomplished. But at least is out there. Now and people are noticing and is is beginning to get into history books. Seminars and conferences are showing the film As an example what was done in the early days of the silent era and done by Asian American woman. Yeah that's just that's the amazing part. Yeah it's tough enough being a woman and then to be an Asian American woman and with no background film and She just accomplished this astounding so was she self taught. We don't know and that's the mystery. Well we do know that. She played she. She performed on Vaudeville stages onto bay area and spay coaster. We found articles pictures of her performance in So she was interested in the performing arts. We know that we know that her the rest. Not The Managed in Oakland in Oakland was in the theater district and Mariam worked at the restaurant when she was older she started her own restaurants and provide a cabaret performances and her daughter his Lulu Trivia. Her daughter. Gosh name escapes me. But maybe you know was the original Helen. Chao character and flower jumps on Broadway. Dianne right right Hong Arlene Hall or every Ana Hong. I'm shocked I forgot her name. I read that in your book. Yeah and she was on Broadway so Arbella Hong Okay if you buy the broadcast. Ninety Eight Cast album from the Broadway production You here are Bella. Hong Sing Solo. Yeah so so. Just just mind blowing that Chinese Americans were making silent movies and it was a female director. She wasn't the only one. Tell me tell me who else was James Speed. Leong Here in LA started at least three production companies in one thousand nine hundred twenty s and he produced a film color tinted film wanted the first color tinted films. Asana era film called Lotus Callosum. And one that was discovered and restored by. Ucla Film and Television Archives. So you can see that that's available And you know. He didn't make another film after that but he didn't stop trying. His family lives in Mount Washington. Here in La and I met and his son who is interviewed for my film and included in the book but he transferred all that they had of James B. Leon to me has archive. And it's just amazing Foul of documents he. He wrote at least twelve scripts that I have and just reading over them. They all had to deal with agent or Asian American topics and he never stopped working or trying. Luckily he was an actor so his livelihood came from acting. And if you look up. Imdb UC dozens and dozens of Credits under his name. Mostly as an extra or a minor character but he was in films like China High Express with Anna May Wong He did a couple of films from enemy wall and so that's another amazing story. You want more interested a silent error There is a Filmmaker Joe Suspend you from San Francisco which was a story that was trying to. I've been tracking system. One Thousand Nine Hundred Eighty S. And but he was born in China came to America at a very young age. I think five or six to San Francisco and really was really inspired by the film industry and this early animation in nineteen seventeen nineteen sixteen and his father was very supportive? He was a businessman and was a part of this new film company that produced a Nineteen Twenty Four silent film starring Anthony Wong and James B Leon and Although they were up in San Francisco the company was they produced a film in Hollywood and sent his son. Joseph Ju to Hollywood to work onto production and so he was here in Hollywood and the twenties and was very disillusioned by what he saw. Which was that? Although the film start anime warranties belong through a lot of yellow face actors in the CAST. It was directed by white people and we have documentation of him lamenting his experience on this highway production but what to do what's inspiring him to produce his own. With Chinese American actors. Anti-american stories being the producer and director formed his own company and high lab for me. His career was in America. He produced in the nineteen forties about twenty-five feature film in San Francisco and some of them in color on sixteen millimeter film which was revolutionary. At that time sixteen millimeter film stock was mostly use for for news and Newsreels. But they're us in. San Francisco's Chinatown Chinatown Sampson. This is what's amazing make producing about twenty five feature length film about Chinese Americans starring Chinese and Chinese American actors. And this is story. That isn't out there now. And if I had known this story when I was in film school in the eighty s I think it would have really set my mental state in a different place. Lie I can really do this. There's been others. There's no excuse for me not to do this. So when when he was making these movies. Let's just focus on him. What was his intended audience? I mean there wasn't that many Chinese in America at the time so he was thinking the broader American population. We're GONNA WANNA watch these movies. I'm finding out more about justice. Undo their happened no oral histories really about him up until a couple of months ago. This was exciting because I have been tracking his story since I produced the film. Forbidden City or say China or nightclubs. Because one of the dancers. They didn't if you say yeah. I was in this film directed by Josephson Jew so I was trying to track down this film footage and this when I really learn what he had done in the forties suskind to that and I've been in his. You talked about all the connections that you had with. My projects is turned out that I went to high school with his daughter. Oh and I yeah. That's what I said. Oh and I wish I had known that he was still alive. And and I just started my interest in filmmaking in high school when I was her classmate and if I had been introduced to him be her and just kind of tagged along and just getting historically been really inspirational but I wasn't so But there have been no or histories historic. So what I've been able to piece together in my research and for the Chinese book was from whatever there was in the media Whether is Chinese media or English language medium And put together a story as much as I could but donner. His daughter called me and said No. I just have the scrapbook I found. And you might be interested and scrapbook are a hundred and twenty newspaper clippings in what they comprise what they accuse what they are were. Joseph Send Jews owned writings about his life as a filmmaker. He serialized his autobiography in his own words. In these hundred twenty clippings that he put in the scrapbook. And that's are you kidding. Yes like this is what I've been looking for since nine hundred ninety five and is on Chinese and I only have a sixth grade education in Chinese. When I went to Chinese San Francisco so I can really make much of it but my sister luckily is very bilingual so she helped me. Kinda summarize chapter and I was able to pull out a couple of calls for the book but right now I'm getting them all translated because I want to know where his story was and and I'm that's kind of what I'm working on now. Because what Donna WH- Josephson Judy did was he was very meticulous in taking photographs. So I have a stack and now you can't see me but I have a stack about two feet high a photo albums that he put together. That Donna has given me for research and some of those photos are in the book. A lot of them are not but they visually they really document the history of the Chinese in America from the early nineteen hundreds on them to sixty five. Yeah but he didn't lay down. Sometimes he will put little labels and his writing is beautiful because he was a sign painter at one point the commercial sign painter and so few the translation of these articles and through the pictures. I'm I'm not sure what's going to come out at that. I'm very excited about it if I was working on it before I came here morning so so in what you've had translated. Did he talk about this intended audience? Yes and well. I'm I'm learning more about how he felt about his antenna. Connie's what I do know is that he also had a career in Hong Kong which is part of the story his story and very successful movie career. Louise that I saw as a kid. Chinese-language movies made in Halloween costume and address and his intention. As far as I know at this point whereas the served chinese-speaking audience both in in in oversee abroad and here in America and in the forties. Just a little quick brief history. Hong Kong was under British rule because the open war treaties up but it was still part of China right in the Japanese. Aggression was starting to come down to Hong Kong and the film industry stopped in the early forties stop producing because of the aggression and but Justice and you came back to America. Nineteen thirty nine. I believe thirty thirty nine. Probably because the digression and he had already been successful with it as a filmmaker in Hong Kong that industry came to Americans say. I'm not going to start working. I'm just continue producing but here in America and I'm going to produce for the Chinese speaking language our audience here in America and Dia. What's happened dependent on the Hong Kong film industry for films so his intended audience with and they were chinese-speaking. Okay here in America and elsewhere. Yeah that makes total sense on Chinese. Yeah okay okay. Although he was bilingual Interesting yeah well so he. He knew his niche right. And you know I'm not sure. It's a niche. That was his that was his business. That was his world as funny with that. Word Niche in some. You know sometimes when people put me in niches I kind of like okay you know. Put me initiative with US convenient but And I think sometimes that word niche or Prem- put into categories. Kind of relegates you to a compartment. Okay or yeah or not a part of the mainstream or not up in a part of the word. You used more normalization. Yeah it's like is an outsider. Kinda idea like your niche really part of the the whole And I'm not sure if he saw himself as a niche. As much as this is what I do. it's not an edge. It's just what I do. Why is it too niche I'm not sure maple making myself. Yeah Yeah I mean I mean he knew I enjoy making movies but I can't keep making movies is almost no one's GonNa go see him right. I mean as as I've had other guests on here who were involved in show. Business is still a business and you had to think of your audience. I think as a filmmaker. I'm always aware that I I need an audience to continue my work. Interest Business Sense because it does take money and I have to make a livelihood. I mean I'd have no other job so you know. There is no money coming in from my work. Then I can't survive So there is always that thought about distribution marketing But for my point of view no I although I think about my market. And and what initially there is. The project or the idea has really satisfy me artistically. Yeah and and feed my passion for. That's the first thing that's the most important part. Yeah otherwise you just churning out. Well then you're just a factory. Yeah and I never intended to be a factory. Even my work for hire you take on a job if it's just part of a factory There's another Director that I'd never heard before that is just utterly fascinating to me Esther Ing. Oh she's a great story. I mean there's so many great see that's the thing that I you know. I couldn't stop working on this book and when I say Book I think it's the whole idea of Hollywood Chinese because it wasn't only a documentary. It's also an exhibition. And that that I created and then this book but there's just so many stories that are untold That are fascinating and now only because their Chinese American but because of the the the drama the journeys that these people took care and string was born and raised in San Francisco. I don't year in my head but in nineteen thirty three. She came down to Hollywood. Nineteen thirty four. She came down to Hollywood and produced the first Chinese language film ever made in Hollywood and caught heartaches that's the translation and she brought actors down from San Francisco. It was the Chinese language films. She hired Non Asian Non Asian partly nomination crew here in Hollywood Director was Chinese American. Tang Who was an actress. Well and was produced by Bruce Wong Ninety Chinese American working in the industry at that time and produces this feature film and she went on to produce more film in Hong Kong and here in America and what's amazing is that she was an open lesbian. She lived her life as a lesbian and she dressed in masculine clothing and her hair was short. If you get the book you see pictures of her and and for those who identify lesbians in certain way you would pick out. I mean if you put on your I only know the word Gaidar Zor Lesbian Anyway. But if you on your what would be the equivalent of a Gaidar Sensibility? You would pick out that. This woman could very well be. I mean if you're going by those kind of fiscal attributes and she was a lesbian and she dated her star. She dated women and she's in the gossip columns Lai. It's just amazing. That she was able to be creatively productive and open openly lesbian at in the nineteen thirties and forties at blows my mind and in in fifty. She went to New York to open a chain of successful restaurants in Chinatown. Yeah I think it was a motte street which is right outside of Chinatown. Yeah now one of the things That Hollywood was doing that. Really shut a lot of Chinese Merkin. Just Asian American actors in general. Was this whole yellow face thing and I would love for you to talk about yellow face. Well yellow faces wear non Asian actors put on makeup so that they can play Asian characters and specifically with Harvey Chinese. The book is playing Chinese characters and that have been going on since the invention cinema in early. Nineteen hundreds indie short films. You See Stories where about China or the Chinese where the characters are white and putting on what we see now. Pretty ridiculously atrocious makeup And that carried on even up to just the last few years review. Hollywood is interesting. They kind of kind of taking idea of yellow face. And and depending on where you you were you stand on. This issue made even worse by whitewashing. That is taking a character that was originally Asian or Asian American or Chinese. The Chinese American and just making that character white lies though the Asian part never existed. We saw that in. Scarlett Johansson's Ghost sheldon the show goes into shell where it was the Japanese animation character and it became Scarlett Johansson and where she had black hair but they didn't slant. Her eyes are yellow makeup under face but totally wiped the Japanese part out. Yeah it was an established graphic novel. Everybody knew that was jealous. Character or someone like Emma stone in a law where she kept the character kept the Asian name. Alison Wong thing. I'm not sure but it was an Karrada. Kept the Asian name surname in. I you know I. I haven't brought myself to see the film yet. But she was agent Hawaiian character hopper. Yeah Asian Hawaiian and their own. Without any she's still blonde or light haired and had at least didn't put the ugly makeup on for till Tilda Swinton doctor strange where the ancient ones. Yeah I guess. She's Asian in. That was like. Yeah but then again in the regional coming it was like yeah like pre or you know and in the film she's wearing to baton gowns and she con has yellow face makeup but she's also very pale but but the way they do that. Well you know when I for me is a very complicated issue I want to just say that as an arturs I want to have the freedom to create and to tell stories that I'm passionate about okay. I I support that artistic freedom and choices as a business in Hollywood It was seen that was it was it was deemed that Asian faces on screens. Didn't bring in boxoffice right. They were not popular enough. Although if you look at someone like Serie Higher Win. The nineteen was the top paying actor regardless of real necessity in Hollywood and he was quite popular So so that kind of debunks that idea. But in general Hollywood didn't trust that in Asian American or Asian actor could carry a picture so they would hire white actors to portray Asian characters and that's yellow facing and started from the early nineteen hundreds up to as I explained. Present Day Although at present days is not as as commenters was back then I heard that even when they were trying to make crazy. Rich Asians Hollywood. The studio was still trying to bring white people to replace some of the Lulu Wang's Ya the meeting. She had the executives. Say What we need them. We need some white folks in some so i. It's not isn't this? Problem is still present in the industry although the dialogue discussion about is out there. And it's not just a black and white issue now. We have black faces US part of history or brown phase and But yeah and the thing for some reason it's as though Asians are still fair game. You know it's like you look at the Quentin Tarantino movie. Once upon a time in Hollywood where Bruce Lee characters is is depending on how you look at it but on one hand you can say that he was really made fun of. And here's his heroic ation character. Asian-american character Pertz personality being beat up by some stunt man. You know some out of work stuntman. Brad Pitt and Bruce Lee characters made to look like this pompous heyhoe. So and I know that his daughter Shannon me hasn't been very outspoken about how the film really makes fun of her father. And how is just a long line of Situations that shows what what Hollywood has done to her father. Bruce Lee who had hard time here in Hollywood when he was alive or getting project started. That really pushed against that stereotype. So did Tarantino Cry Artistic License. Sure you know. Y- Y you know he makes fun of everybody right. That's excuse so and that's where I come down to. How few as a creator you know. That was the artistic choice I made but then with that comes. A worship responsibility wishes sense of compassionate empathy. And if that doesn't come into play when you make those sources what that says a lot about you doesn't it Whereas when I make my choices I try to be very careful about them if I were take. It was apple. My last surround the confused about the hang nor it's about Cambodia Industry and the Cambodian American community here in America and which I know I knew nothing about me and I'm from the Chinese American community but I took it upon myself to spend years of research so that even if the research that I went through and books that I read and the advisers not talk to doesn't show up onscreen. I have a foundation which to make some decisions about characterization and ideas and and and scenes in the film so I I make a point to do that with my film family fundamentals which is about conservative Christian families with gay kids. I knew nothing about really religion in America and different Protestant and evangelical mainstream was. Okay I mean. I didn't know any of that because I don't come from that background but I took it upon myself to read books to top the advisers and talk to people and so I knew the differences and even those that that education for myself education didn't show up on screen. It informs my decision making so if I were going to make a decision to portray a character in a way I knew that it may have repercussions or may be seen as a A specific choice to certain people certain thoughts so and when someone cries whoa that's more artistic freedom. I think it's more complex than saying well. That's my artistic choice and I. I should have that freedom. I think we have a responsibility as creators to go beyond just that one simple phrase what I'm thinking of an thanks for sharing all that Arthur I'm thinking of is if this particular subject matter or this people group is so under or misrepresented in in what's come before I think that's where the responsibility comes in. I think so it was like okay. So this is like a one of those few instances where we're actually going to have them on the big screen. It's like yeah we. We should feel more weight. Well that's what I think I'm not print Tarantino. I mean if I were and I knew that my films would go out in a very big way. Which his films do and that people are going to watch. This film and I knew that the representation of asian-americans was lacking diversity. And in truth that I would be careful about how portray loosely if I were going to and he no he co wrote the script so no choice right. It's not like I mean he could have chosen. Mohammed Ali right to be beaten up into. So why didn't he choose? Muhammad Ali that he Mahama lease probably more outspoken in terms of his his attitudes about life than Bruce Lee was and so there was a choice to be made. So is the idea. That Asia's are still fair. Game in Hollywood part of that choice you know. It was reflective of that attitude about Asians in America or around the world that we can make fun of them still that we can still have yellow face but not black trace Those are the questions that come up in and you can't just put aside by saying well. That was my choice. I'm an artist so so this makes me think about was it Twenty Sixteen Oscar. Oscarssowhite was at an end so that was so white. Came in two thousand fifteen but it was the Oscar broadcast in two thousand sixteen. That was so offensive right so so I think that is a great example of A. We're talking about here. So there's this heightened sensitivity to the black white binary and just you know the the Oscars Academy so I kept stepping very carefully and it was a Chris. Rock rock and also Sasha Baron Cohen. They they made terribly racist jokes about Asians right and so it was like I remember when I heard that I'm like how can this be happening at that? Fair game me with Sasha Baron Cohen. Go Up there and make a joke about African American man's penis sizes. No but he did about Asian Asian men would Chris Rock maker joke about watermelon. He wouldn't be. He made a joke about Asians being accountants. So we've come a long ways. I think in media representation but they're just so much more work to be done. I mean that's just it and you just when we think it was. We are given reminders. That is not completely safe. So as I'm as I was going to your book and reading about all these amazing Chinese Americans that I had no idea about all up to the present. You know with Justin Lin and only and what have you and then there's all these people in front of lenses right the actors and I'm thinking and I don't know if your research revealed this but they're in this environment that is so yellow face that is making them invisible or so stereotyping them if they're woman there this dragon lady prostitute. You know sort of thing. If they're man they're they're this houseboy. Their number three son Charley. Right all this kind of stuff. What what motivated them to still work in the Industry Ricky GONNA WIND UP. The whole thing was stacked against them where you got to put food on the table. Are you GonNa do do your thing else? Well you can say that. But if you're passionate is to be an actor and your craft and your mastery and your training and your life is to be an actor you don't give that up you do what you can and in that time. Well let's take a look for example right number one son. Charlie Chan films for him. He actually Charlie Charlie. The whole nother subject. But let's take key luke. He was able to craft a character he was to practice his craft. And he's pretty good those valves. I mean if you look at those arms or get putting aside the Yellow Face Father Charlie Chan and you look at the scenes with the kids really quite marvelous. I loved those scenes. They're really fun and they're so Chinese American And there's really reflective of a new generation here in America if you close your eyes and listen to the dialogue with the father. They're really credible. Scenes third scenes between that really underscored the conflict between generations of a foreign born parents man american-born kids and taught and they really reflect that they're very touching and father is very loving in this kind of old school. Chinese kind of way but then of course you open your eyes because it is a film. You're watching it. You see that the father is has. This is pasted up a Tyson that fortune cookie. Yeah you'RE ASIAN. And speaking that way it lends the character. But if you're white and you're speaking that way it's making fun or as parodying The character the culture and but for me There for for someone like you look who was given a chance to act and continue working and make a name for himself really accelerate graph. I mean his final films Alison Gremlins. He's just marvelous. Those films especially Alice Mike But takes time to hone your craft and become an excellent actor onscreen and it just doesn't work for. Somebody happens overnight but not for everybody so I think having a livelihood at that time if given a choice of being a manual labor or being act on onset in demeaning structure in racist structure this choice be made and I think it's a personal choice and this threshold. Each actor had in terms of what they took and what they did not take before the industry. At that time you had to also think what was going on in America what. The culture was an America and social politics. That's the position that we were put in Y- every decade has his own geopolitical back on as well. Because if you look at war to in the forties China was an ally with the nineteen forty eight when the communist took over but China's was an ally and everybody was Po- Chinese anti Japanese and take for example. Richard Loo an actor who was hadn't had a lot of credits to his name but could be most famous for his characterizations villainous Japanese in World War. Two movies and you know his his point of view. According to his daughter was that he felt very patriotic portraying the Japanese as villains because they were villains in America in terms of the Japanese nationals. Of course there's the complicated side of the Japanese Americans were interned as well. So how does that reflect in a larger culture and how we saw Japanese-americans but that's how he fell as an actor that he was doing his patriotic duty by train Japanese as villains Japanese. Nationals Americans I WANNA Pivot Hill. A little bit and I read this statement. I think it was on your website that you work tends to focus on either asian-americans or lgbtq stories. And I thought this is a great Through line summation is like it's about stories about survival and resistance Set against backdrops of social and Cultural Prussians. Yes Gate and so I definitely see that in the Asian American stuff and I've always wanted to have this next conversation with you this other part of yourself. You're Asian American and you're also gay right And I it's like Talk about the work. They're the movies that you've made there. was a family fundamentals. You've already mentioned licensed to kill and then coming out under fire. Where did that you know? What kind of courage did that take for you to take those projects on? How kind of similar way have you seen the scene changed socially uneven portrayals in film and television where by the time I did coming out under fire which is about the military's policy toward Galas soldiers in World War. Two I had already done Forbidden City USA. Sewing woman about my mom and And then the other student films so already done. Asian American films Documentaries that were pretty well received by day's American community ended logic media well And with Commander Fire. I knew that I was going to be making film but a non-asian-american specific project topic and about a gay lesbian topic and and I remember in Essen your question. I remember that I knew had to make some kind of transition to the public. Not to me. I mean I knew who I was. I knew what I was interested in I. I was very interested in this story about the military's policy because there's about governance is about oppression of a group of people in America and how policies can control them and really devastate allies out of the regulations. And that goes along with my pension. Fire for stories about people who survived is or resistors or become a victim of And I knew that the public may see me as the filmmaker as an Asian American knew that I would have to broaden my base to lgbt community at that time it was LG. Yeah that's right and and I suppose I took specific steps. I was on a board out fest here. Which is the Gay Lesbian Film Festival? Here in southern California. I took steps to broaden the way people saw me not the way I saw myself the way people saw me in your public. Yes and that for them to trust I can take on this story that they think that it's out of balance for me right That they may think whose Asian American person doing a story about you know war to gays and Lesbians. Right and So I remember doing that in making sure that I frame my grant proposals to fund the film in a larger context in the context of Asia of US history. So there are some things that I did get the public ready that an Asian American director can come in and do this major documentary. And I'm not sure if I had to do that but I did. Yeah and that's not a bad idea because it got me working with the larger gay and Lesbian. Social community the organizations. I've been a part of the game lesson community already ever since I was a teenager so it wasn't so much socialization but in working with them as an interested them as an organizations and being a part of their mandate to change policy now that that was the first one what was licensed to kill about license skill. Somewhere interview kill is a gay men and then that that came out of a real personal passion and because I've been gay bashed a few times and it never stopped me being who I was and I hadn't really thought about those incidents in my life and to I started working on this film and at the idea of anti-gay violinist really is larger interest in violence aagh towards a specific group of people and and I remember going to your trial just for research out of curiosity in Texas in one thousand nine hundred ninety five ninety six and at that time there have been a quite a few anti gay violence incidents in Texas so I went to trial where the defendant was accused of murdering a gay person and a park and when I went to trial is this during the time. Oj Simpson was on Charles while I believe and it was. So here's a young black man handsome and in a suit of course and this was in Tyler Texas in West Texas small town so it's the rules. Were really a strict and small town so I spent some time down and make friends with the judge and I made friends with the defendant His lawyer and 'cause they I kinda stuck out. She was so and ca just staying with the trial. I sit one you know. He seemed so he's like a kid. Just some kid that murdered a gay man and apart and released really piqued my curiosity to want to know more about him. And that's what started my project on. Sister kill this is really is to try to look at the perpetrators point of view and look through their lives and and trying to deconstruct what it is that brought into the point of murdering a gay person and I think with all my projects often starts with a curiosity about the topic Like with the handlery product was the idea of genocide And with been USA does the whole idea. What were there was a Chinatown nightclub in San Francisco in World War Two? So there's always a curiosity of looking at the story and trying to find out more about it and what it is. They made it happen What was the groundwork to foundation that Allowed this story to unfold so back to licence to kill. Did you find some common basis for why these Straight men felt they had a license to kill game in what it did not find that it was in their DNA. Okay what I found was and I'm not a psychologist. What I found was that it was is the social upbringing. Whether it's what's taught in the classroom or new churches so at home and That was disturbing and when I set out to interview this man and you know when when you interview a convicted murderer in in prison depending on the state you're going to and we travel around America. Dvd's man 'cause everywhere sometimes you get a chance to do what we call pre interviews so you get to know the person and get to know story but except for Texas. We weren't allowed to see any these men prior to the interview because in some of the Presidency only allow the media. And I was. The media was only allowed one interview per year. Oh Gosh it was like this is this? Yeah or you had to wait till next year. Or some regulation like that where soon timestamped restriction but with each case. I got the transcripts. Whatever from the court trials whatever documentation to was whatever media there was we gathered before visiting each man and So I really knew what I knew was what was on paper or documentation. But would you what I was after? Was the personal story. Which much of these transcripts don't have you know it's about the the evidence clues that's the witnesses and so I was. I really had an open mind as to. What am I gonNA find and I remember the first interview I had was with a military officer who didn't kill specifically gay people but he was so upset with the don't ask don't tell policy that allow gays in the military but not be open about it. He was so upset about that policy that he went to a restaurant drunken and Out of his rage over the policy shot the Patriots and murdered patients. Gay or not gay or not. And he was shouting. Forget what the words where he was shouting his displeasure at Halsey. And that ruining America you. Ruining the military and weakening the military and that was our first interview and not knowing what would find when I met these men. It was actually very interested in my work inspirational because he opened up and talked about Being a military person about what it meant for order into hang gays in the military and what the the effect it had on his sense of water and his sense of what America should be and they really started me on the path with each of the interviews that I did with this man and really trying to explore what it is they thought and how it is that they were brought to that point. Did you find in any of these other men that They they're homophobia was triggered more by like like they were in torment inside like well. I'm actually kind of attracted to this guy but I hate that I am on in one. Oh there was one serial killer who who? He's still alive so he's gay and he was bought up in very strict conservative Christian household where he was taught that being gay was immoral and he was gay himself and he really tried to work out his demons through the murdering of two men and And he contracted the AIDS virus so he was very upset about that. Yeah so one of the men. I interviewed V. That file. Okay I'm there are others where I I suspect if I went deeper in. There may have been some latent feelings but we didn't go that far okay and then this this other movie coming out under fire. Is that the one that you've studied. EVANGELICAL ISM but that's family fundamentals. All Star Yeah. Okay so so okay. So let's talk about family fundamentals 'cause 'cause that's come already in some of your research in in these previous films is oftentimes. A contributing factor is if one is raised in a very conservative Christian Environment. Home and school. And what? What HAVE YOU Were basically you're seeing this as an aberration of normativity is go back to that word right and I wouldn't say that aberrations in some cases it's what you're supposed to be doing is like Jehad. Oh okay what some preaching and some lectures I've heard from the pulpit It's supposed to be doing. I'm talking about seeing like same sex attraction that's the aberration that's raised our document the the harming of Gay Piano Killing Gay people right. And you know it's interesting because I'm I'm right now in conversation with two documentary filmmakers. They're working on this team Based on a book that's coming up. That's being written by some of Christian Friends of mine. The research is a winded. The word homosexual actually get inserted in English Bible was actually nineteen forty six. Why was that and what was the word before it was homosexual and in the in the Bible all over the world I mean they have Bible going all the way back to the reformation and they go that board was in there really probably forty said. Yeah interesting when did war to end a forty five forty five right you know and this is for America centric and I'm not sure what additional Dabo? He's taught standard. Yes okay because in war see the anti gay military policy war to really had a wide effect in terms of how America thought about gay people. 'cause that was for that for the first time was an official Mandate or policy that labeled gay people I sacrifice and officially not just by the Psychiatric Association official government policy that labeled gay people as deviants. They use these words deviants and psychopaths and that came out of World War Two and soldiers were discharged dishonorably as deviance psychopaths. They were put into Wards psychopathic words and treated as such and it doesn't surprise an and the government policy against hiring gay people into agencies black male right yet whole thing so it doesn't surprise me that the American English version of the Bible picked up on that as well because it was widespread. Yeah so so from what? I understand. Exactly what you're saying. Is they said there was a site geist at the time that saw same sex attraction as deviancy mental illness right it was in whatever version of DSM and so the the team that was charged to come out with this new English translation which became the revised standard version. There were swimming in that water. That was in the air. Okay and so that got in there and then that that became kind of the standard that Other English translations coming out what was in that one. So we're GONNA go so then the Living Bible with which was given away at billy Graham Crusades all these things and so you know. I think the the common American Christian prisoners. That's one Bible says so. Must be true right. So what's interesting? Is these researchers. And now these filmmakers are saying so what would you think of? I'm can show you proof. That's that actually came about in nineteen forty six when the the the attitude at the time when it was deviancy but subsequent after that the APA the AMA. They no longer took that position. They took it out of the. Dsm diagnostic manual right but the word that was put in there at at that time. When this was seen as the darkness it was never upgraded to current understanding. So so I think it's fascinating I. I do believe that they're they're going to run up against. I hope I'm not true right about this. But they're going to run up against a bigger things so people hearing this. There's all this historical thing. They they actually have the notes. They went deep into the archives of the Yale Seminary where the head of the translation team. They found a letter that was preserved of this closeted gay seminary students who wrote the head of the translation team one of his professors. And say you don't realize what harm you're GonNa do you know Blah Blah Blah and? They actually tracked him down. They found him. He still alive he later. Came up is is right up your alley. Viewed him yes. Oh amazing amazing. But I think what they're going to run up against. There's GonNa be some folks who go but then you're saying I can't trust with my Bible by even though they said well. I'm telling you it was attitude. There was a reason there was there was a there's culture. There's boss at the time that was very anti gay. And so that's how that Kinda got in there. But we've we've all moved past that you know all the people who know better they go. Oh no no. We don't fix that. Yeah okay but I said what they're going to run up against is these people then but that's what you're saying. I can't trust what I read my Bible. Well as a non Christian I look at I hear that and say Yeah Okay Right. Yeah so there you go. So where's the argument? So you're filmmaker friends have found some extra documentation which I think for you know when you're talking about subjects like religion you need documentation. Yeah to say what this is. What happened? It's not just because there was a culture but it actually was a person making this move making this this adjustment and it wasn't just history that it came from but an actual person. Who is this person who is who is group of people right? I mean they've got they've drilled all the way down books next year and and the documentaries GonNa come along yeah right so I think the plan is that they're going to be interviewing me too for for my part in this whole movement but I so I'm excited for projects that you know like you work on these other documents documentary filmmaker. I'm all for going to the movies for entertainment but also think movies can serve this other purpose. Which is to tell stories that are overlooked known I certainly know that your book Hollywood Chinese is another way to tell these stories If people WANNA get this book Arthur and I know listeners out there you need to get this book. How they get their hands on the most direct way is through. My publisher and their website is Angel City. Press DOT COM. So I'll repeat that again. Angel City Press Dot Com This is also available in Amazon Is kind of sketchy. Sometimes they Amazon runs out So that's another outlet there in bookstores and Angel said he presses a boutique publisher out of Santa Monica too. Small publisher focusing more on southern California. Although the books go out nationally but they are gonNA have a the. They're going to be working with a national distributor starting. January one so actually going to really get out much wider starting to beginning of the year and Mike. Work that you made a documentary to. That's this is based on or it's just Hollywood Chinese and there's an exhibition in fact The exhibition regionally was mounted at the Chinese American Museum in downtown. La and two thousand nine. And but I recently Was Commissioned to curate a smaller version of that for the most the cafe in West Hollywood Which is this landmark restaurant bar in the middle of Hollywood amongst our studios in Hollywood That has I'm not sure how to describe it really quickly. But it's like the The restaurant is like Rahman's Chinese theater with an certain level appropriation of Chinese culture. And it's kind of like a Chop Suey restaurant in Chinatown on steroids but beautifully done. Yeah dismay to half million dollar restoring it and he asked me to curate the back room Because the front rooms like many eateries in Hollywood has autographed photos of movie stars from the Golden Age of Hollywood but back-room they wanted me to put together a canal Almost two Chinese American Chinese American presence in Hollywood. And which is what I did. And it's actually kind of fun. Well they went to the right exact person to do that. Oh Yeah it's fun. When they they were the owner had liked my first book been city USA. I'm sure how he got a copy but he had really been a fan of it in fact inspired him some work. He was doing his restoration. Formosa cafe so they got hold of me via email and I get emails a lot of them just asking for this that or some advice and and in came this one and said you know we're doing this at the Formosa Cafe we wanting if we were trying to look for some photos of actors like Nancy Kwan. Andy Salou it was a very nice innocent three or four email and I kind of chuckled. When I got that I said why did you hit the Jackpot that started a relationship and in the end? I did create an expedition there. That's still up. It's going to be up there for a while. I'm not sure I mean they have a permanently. They're not my actual pieces of course but it was. They did a really good job. And one of my favorite parts of the The show is I have sixty headshots of Asian American performers in the room. It's just Imia assist infamy. Even I had to be little immodest when I go into room and I see sixties headshots of Asian American performers. It really hits you. Yeah it's like. Oh Yeah we were. Always the part of just history. We've been raised or covered up. But we've always been here. You know in a spectrum of parts in on you you may not like some of them you may think they were racist or caricatures or yellow or demeaning. But we were here. We were working. We are part of this industry one way or another and for me. That's pretty striking. Yeah I gotta ask you though. How would you rate the Chinese food at Bat? They hired I. Tau Unease escort fat. Eddie's I think they're in Mar Vista I never been there. Apparently is quite well known. It's run by. I think he's taiwanese-american but I know he has rusen Taiwan and because it's the Formosa cafe which is the old word for him to set the menu so really coming from an Asian point of view. That's Nice Asian and actually. What I'm told is pretty good compared to what it used to be there because it was you know chops. Rio Chop Suey joined in terms of the menu. But I have to say that the two times I've had ed the honey. WanNA SHRIMP WHICH. I am not a fan of in Chinese restaurants schools. The GOP on the mayonnaise. Yeah Yeah I realize how can you eat? My husband loves I said how can you eat it? But they're at Formosa. Cafe has really Nice Chris. Coding and it's really good. So the Thanh Taiwan in I'm not an expert on Tonton men and what should be but what I had there was really tasty is ground meat kind of sauce and on a bit spicy which I like so those are the two things I've had that I really liked and it was wonderful. The Formosa Cafe. They actually hosted the Book Party for me so that was quite nice. Yeah I actually had the date wrong and I drove out. There took an hour and a half through traffic from. Were here right. No I get there and I'm like I'm here for the Arthur Dong book signing and they're like That's next week and I'm not doing this again. Hour hour and a half to get home and I told my wife I was I was. I was there to support Arthur but I messed up. I put it on the wrong date joy. Sorry Eddie Wong. Irene suicide writers were there publish areas Willia- plastic. What's that and it wasn't like a book signing? We're I had to give a lecture mean I say half I mean enjoying doing book talks but it was party didn't have do a talk. You know I didn't have to do a presentation and it was for me was very. It was fun because It was more loose and relaxing. Drink to flowing food. Was you know it was all free just like I suffered too much though? Well yeah trying. Arthur we'll never know. I was actually making texted me in. You know I know right right and then I looked up the event thing. It's like Oh that's a different date by back on the freeway. Thank you so much for doing what you do. Everything The research you put into it the passion that you bring to it. This latest work of yours is is just another shining example of the the contribution. You're making two way beyond Chinese Asian American. Just just telling the truth telling the stories that need to be told looking forward to what else is going to come out of that mine mine creatures but before you leave. I will definitely get you. Sign my copy. It'd be my pleasure but thank you so much Arthur. You're welcome is. This is what I do all right bill that back Asian America the Kampong. Podcast is directed by Ken. Fong and produced by Ken. Bong an allison chain special. Thanks to Tim be told off. White and big phony for allowing us to use their music in this podcast for more information about any of the guests appearing on this show visit. Www DOT ASIAN AMERICA PODCASTS DOT COM? You can subscribe to this podcast by going to our website I tunes spotify or most major podcast platforms if you like what you hear. Please share this episode with your friends and rate and review our podcast. Itunes we also post additional content on our facebook and instagram including photos updates on guess an additional thoughts from Ken. We thank you so much for listening and we hope you'll come back to join us.

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184: RIP RBG, AAPI Candidates, COVID Mental Health

Model Majority Podcast

1:06:06 hr | 7 months ago

184: RIP RBG, AAPI Candidates, COVID Mental Health

"You know I really was compelled by how precarious things must be an and how that's a sign of a genuine need for change if the passing of one individual throws into doubt all of the civil rights that we we have come to to take for granted or the ones or the civil rights that we have fought hard for our entire system should not be contingent upon the life of one person continuing to live through to November or to January our system clearly needs massive reform. We have heard today. Not a victory of potty. But a delegation of freedom. Timbale is an. Beginning. Crying Redo. K.. Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode one, hundred, eighty, four, the model majority podcast talk about politics culture and life through the eyes of three asian-american former field organizers I am your co host Tony Naga tiny spin a little bit everybody and I am your Co Host Kevin Shoe and I'm your co host John Fang reappropriated. Back. At again. About. They're just now Tony is it because this is the first time we did not have a script recording in four years those of you. Just. So you know we usually script things out and today we just have a blank page steering in front of US Record. It is a little bit fly by the Pan. Just by the nature of Covid are three very, very busy lives. It's odd because you know a lot of confined sort of to close quarters, but I had a very, very busy quarantine and the world has had a very, very busy Cova time and we're GONNA get into all of that today. But I guess the thing I was just laughing at is. How long it's been since we've recorded it's been I think a month and a half something like that and I just think it's not funny but it was more of a nervous laughter because I realize. I miss you guys. A Doing has been going on. You Know I. Think Pandemic Quarantine has been a little rough in my household You know I'm I'm still privileged I have like a fulltime job I have job security, but we don't have daycare or childcare, and we haven't in I think going on six months seven months at this point. So it's been a little rough, right? Yeah, I have. Conversation now he's. Majority podcast wherever you get your podcast listening Dan Social Media at model majority on twitter JEN is at reappropriate on twitter and her website is re appropriate Dot Co. you know what to do whatever But. What I was GONNA say was that to Jen specifically was at one of the things that I've been doing. What are the things that I've been doing instead of actually trying to keep this podcast going regularly Is that I started teaching what am I? Good College friends who lives in who live in San San Diego with his wife and his newborn child a probably around the same age as yours I'm guessing. I've been teaching this little kid. He not newborn mine is about two and some change right something so I guess I don't even know what the definite for newborn is. A little. Human. Whom I've been teaching Chinese every single. So cool because the reason why I'm teaching Chinese not because he really was no Chinese, the kid the little human is that my buddy my my friend. is also without. Childcare for however number that were in covert now and he is taking care of his kid basically a four time while quote unquote working remote for like Wednesday Thursday Friday of every week while his wife who is a doctor has to go outside right to work to treat other people and he just needs to talk to another adult human being and give him some sanity and make complete sentences and not like bub-bubba our day and it's been rewarding for me. But honestly, I am doing very little compared to all the young parents who are trying to deal with other stuff. Yeah. I think that's been the really hard thing and You know talking to other parent friends. It's really hard to feel so isolated I. This is a very isolating time for everybody, but it's especially isolating if you're doing a lot of childcare right now because you spend a lot of time with someone you you know obviously it's it's wonderful to be able to spend this much time with your kids but you also start to miss out on some of the adult interactions that otherwise you normally have in your day and so it's like literally what we have said, you know, I miss having a grownup conversation about something. That's not you know look it's a bird you know that. Right, exactly like my conversation would this kid is think Paul again. And then he speak Spanish at home with my buddies doesn't speak Spanish. Do Kevin L. Point MSL Uncle Kevin on the screen for like five minutes, he's very. Is like thank God please do that more I need to? Have space out for like a few minutes. That's awesome. That's awesome. Goodness. Well, I've just been singing to my cat in my free time. So it's me and my cat and my song in my job and Sometimes I feel like I. am going a little bit crazy because I am lacking. A. Lot of Human Natural Human Conversation but oh, my God I am Sad. The more I. Talk About this. This sounds like I. have this. I'm. please. Don't judge guys. Please we make our entertainment where we can get right now. Right? Indeed indeed around. How Do we have really serious topics to talk about I promised our audience, but I think one of the big things that we've alluded to before is just just this incredibly weighty mental health I don't even know what what to call at this point like a societal burden or just like there's an endless crowd cloud is gonNa Shroud over us even if we have a vaccine that's working by tomorrow that's going to affect a lot of people, kids, adults really all across the ages and imagine curious like how do you guys seek sane? Adult interaction or trying to manage your own psyche during this time. Maybe. Starting with you. I'm. That assumes that that's happening. Honestly I think I'm trying my best to just take a few minutes every day to do a little bit of exercise self care just focus on myself. I think one of the hardest things about the pandemic right now is that The way that the Labor is divided in my household is that either myself or my partner have a lot of free time to focus on ourselves, and so we've been trying to try to make that time, give it to each other to do things like you know, go for a run or watch a show that we haven't been able to see or something like that. But like because all every single moment of the day is basically taken either by work or by childcare or by the. Chores that have to happen around the house in order to to make everything function and so yeah, I mean and part of it also is just taking some time to catch up on the news. You know both of us have have really had to unplug because You know we're so busy focused on the things that we need in order to to to keep things going on a day to day, and so you know sometimes it's as simple as just sitting down and watching a news show together or To take some time to read the headlines Together, and chat about it over dinner. That's that's how we're basically sort of staying. You know taking care of ourselves Tony Anything you've done interestingly or differently besides. Cat. No No. Honestly I've been trying to stay in touch with my loved ones. I am an only child. So I don't have siblings it was an and whatnot. So it because I also sickle single and living alone I I am by myself a lot. So it's kind of like the exact opposite problem has genesis having says John has so much responsibility and real life stuff to deal with like I'm sort of I have occupied myself with my job as I, usually do but. To try to combat the solitude. I've been really making an effort to reach out and talk to my relatives who I you know. I live very active lifestyle in general and so sometimes I. Think I neglected that people in by not talking to them enough. So I've been trying to write that through Kobe try to turn that into a positive you know. INTERESTING INTERESTING So I guess in terms of discussion topics I, made a list before we started recording. I actually a few days ago and obviously a bunch of really important stuff happened and I feel like we cannot not open up this chat with the passing of Ruth Bader, Ginsburg. Justice Ginsburg I guess I'm just kind of curious actually coming back to the personal question where were you guys when you heard the news I was so I was driving with my wife on the highway and I was paying attention to the road and my wife which was like schooling on her phone normally speaking, and then she just saw the news on twitter and just screamed I and I was like Whoa what are you doing and then she she's a pretty calm person generally just like okay calm down those swerve on the road don't get too distracted talking to me and then she told me the news and we just Drove pretty much the rest of the way home in silence we were listening to a podcast while she was scrolling through. Twitter at the time and that's how I kind of the condition or the state of mind which I about it a well, what about you? You guys I remember I was sitting on the couch as per usual. My my kid was watching something on TV some something probably Mickey Mouse clubhouse because that's the latest obsession in this household and I caught the news. Basically within minute of when NPR released it because NPR released it before any of the other major networks picked it up and I usually have news alert pushes on my phones and I caught the NPR story before I even got the news alert which came out a couple of minutes later and I was just in shock I actually read through it and was what? I had to like triple check because I thought maybe it was like an onion article or Something like are you sure because I almost never catch news before I get a news push and I was like I haven't seen this come out on my push alerts yet. So could this be not real and I read it and I was like I triple check that it was NPR and read thoroughly then I started getting the push alerts but I was just completely. Just. floored. The just a totally unexpected after. You. Know the the months that we've had and I think I was just starting to feel a little bit more optimism about the election and. This happened I literally did not know how to react. That was sort of the way that I felt like I all remembers I shared the news out to my partner who was out of the house at the time and then yeah, just sort of sat there and sort of was like Oh my God and sort of consumed every news article from that point on that I could find just sort of process what this meant for the future. Yeah. Tony I was home at work I was actually Having a pretty rough day at the office as it were just a very, very stressed everything that possibly could have gone wrong went wrong that day in my business and then I looked down at twitter and I saw the tweets and. They were from people who? Usually don't tweet lies out or tweet out you know. Irresponsibly now is just like Oh man, this is basically the. One of the worst possible scenarios that we could possibly envision and especially this close to the election and and of course, you know my my brain is spinning off from there and we've talked in this podcast in the past just about you know. How the Supreme Court, basically, since George W Bush as a president who was elected without winning the popular vote who was who you know installed Supreme Court justices how much this continues to corrupts the Supreme Court just in the sense that we have these justices who are now who are up there who who are not really approved by the will of the people and so it's it's it's. Very troubling and so close to the election, the the specter of any sort of weird eight eights tie in the Supreme Court, if some you know weird recall challenge recount challenge happens like all these weird things on top of what it actually means because I think it is very, very likely that the Republicans will if not before the election during the lame duck actually pushed through that Scotus nominee. The what the long lasting implications will be for the rule of law in in this country and and it's it's it's a damn shame that president who lost the popular vote who was essentially installed by Many many mistakes put including with the assistance of a foreign government is installing three Supreme Court justices. It's it really is a terribly upsetting, and it's just a mark of how corrupted our times have become and I think that was one of my major reactions was you know we're we are sort of at the light at the end of the tunnel for the trump administration one hopes one hopes right on and I'm not going to be oh I'm not gonna be overconfident about November but there is a possibility that you know we're GonNa see the end of the of the trump White House come January, and my first thought was. I can't believe that we're in a position where we could be dealing with trump era. Politics and its ramifications for a generation to generation. Yeah more than generation for you know that this is not the end of the flagrant abuses of. The law and the Constitution that we will now be dealing with this with such a lopsided court My other reaction also was that like you know I really was compelled by the thought that how precarious things must be an and how that's a sign of a genuine need for change if the passing of one individual throws into. Doubt. All of the civil rights that we have come to to take for granted or the ones or the civil rights that we have fought hard for like one person's passing as truly tragic as that may be should not the entire. our entire system should not be contingent upon the life of one person continuing to live through two to November or to January you know and so it's like. The. Our system clearly needs massive reform that. Justice. GINSBURG pass on and that's definitely a horrible thing. But that we're all wondering what's going to happen for the affordable care act and gay marriage and for women's rights and reproductive rights like we shouldn't be be in a position where we have to question what this is going to mean for everybody. But that is the system that we now have and that is I think for me a clarion call that we need to really reexamine how things are going and make change so that. The system isn't so precarious. I think illuminates just this big single point failure problem right in our whole country and that has been happening I think covert exposed a lot of the single point of failure problems. But even before that, if you just think a little bit farther batch of the financial crisis of seven eight hours, a single point of failure problem a dodge reverberates across the country but the globe and the Supreme Court has been kind of single point failure for good or bad for a lot of things right? Like people who who need their healthcare are there hopes are hinged upon nine people deciding something? Gay, marriage civil rights, voting rights. They're all hinged upon these nine people deciding something one way or another, and, of course, justice GINSBURG had long legacy of fighting for rights using her platform and her position of power as a lawyer for equal pay I. think that was one of her first big Supreme Court cases as a lawyer before she became a justice and so on and so forth and we hardly think this comes back to like a larger almost like a mental. State that we're all in collectively as a country that we hardly had a moment to even celebrate her accomplishment you know and I am not like blaming anybody for thinking that way. I thought about that I thought in way as well. But it just so crazy to me that we barely had a moment to breathe and think and be like, wow, what an amazing person that was that did live. And kind of overlap with our life and did so much to help so many so many people and you late in the moment that happened are might almost switch to holy crap. What does this mean for the? November election, what does this mean for all these big civil rights and human rights issues that we have to maintain, and then the next four years on us for which Is Interesting observations you like remove myself for myself and think about what I thought about during that time, which is why I could ask you all the question too because I definitely thought that way even felt guilty afterwards, it'd be like I should like watch. RPG again you know man I know a lot of people dead to celebrate alive and to do that, and that's fine. But I know a lot of people normally would have done more but then we just aren't immediately worried anxious. So well, I think in part is because a as we've already said like the stakes November. Are incredibly high. There has been so much erosion of rights and liberties under the trump White House, and this is sort of the the the point where we can actually do that and it's not this is not just esoteric actual people's lives are at stake over what happens in the election this November, and so I think on the one hand I see what you're saying but I also think that for many of us were also thinking about you know how this is without trying to sound too hyper but this is a life or death election for a lot of people right now. And I think we're very concerned about what could happen if? The trump administration is able to nominate and install another other justice into the Supreme Court like what is that going to mean like I am personally very concerned that the news right now is that the nominees being floated are explicitly folks who would oppose women's rights to choose. That's something that. Yeah and that that would be almost their litmus test for the dominy. A truly scared Hail Mary it's their hair Hail Mary electoral strategy to. Try to get out like the base voters to come out to vote for trump. It's going to be a fire up along the issue of abortion because that's easy for them to market, and within this within the proximity of the election, it's so cynical. Awful. It's so cynical an awful I'm sorry I missed disgusted by this entire situation and then like the way that. The way that our politics is now turning it into football. You know into this very, very gross political football to try to save Donald, trump's neck. Oh Gosh, it is. The election cannot come soon enough and he's like, I wish it was tomorrow because we need. You know we we need that breaking point. We need the people to have their say and we've I don't think anybody needs to be persuaded anymore I think everybody's ready to vote and we just need to. Only, everybody who wants to voters able to vote let's just hope we can do that. Right. I mean we haven't even talked about the voter suppression that is likely to be a problem this year. Now. The other element of Scotus even before this tragic news that was so Kind of hang over all of us like I've been seeing kind of privately to people for a while now that. We probably will not actually know who the next president is before Christmas, just because of the voter suppression and the voting irregularities because of Kobe and also just all the rooms for error that usually is pretty big and now even bigger, which just gives every reason for Donald Trump? If he were losing to dispute everything, there is under the Sun. That we just won't even know who the next president is for a while as much as even if we start voting election days, tomorrow a for example, and that has to do a lot with voter suppression. Activities that are happening everywhere ray like I'm reading this like a snippets of news in Georgia. Actually a lot of them has targeting college campuses as well with Kobe, being this pretext almost to disenfranchise a lot of young people who of course, there's a disproportionate vote for the Democrat and so on and so forth. Of course, mailing ballad the speed in which you can count those ballots. Submitted correctly legibly which all of us having worked on The very front lines of these elections as field organizers know how not to take for granted. You can be with that kind of stuff and I don't know if you guys have any additional thoughts on that but that hasn't been worrying me for a very, very long time, but it's also a very. Powerless. Worry because I really don't know what to do about it I. Actually I disagree with you a little bit Kevin. Just, in the sense that. My Gut disagrees with you and I think it'll be proven true when early voting begins to happen more and more states I'm very curious to see what the early vote turnout numbers look like You know in relation to what they look like in two thousand sixteen and I suspect because of covert early vote actually might those numbers might be up? I'm going to be looking at those numbers very very closely, but I wanted interjects. Disagree I. DO think that Americans are fed up and I do think that on election night that pretty clear that the Joe Biden is going to be next president I'm not saying it's GonNa be hard I mean this is going to be hard to get their steelers and plenty of ways to go right. But but I do think people are going to reject Donald Trump. But my question for you guys have you made your plans for how you are going to vote. Not. Not How like candidate? Wise. But like for me, I know that the first day I hear about my remote voting site opening up as close to me as possible like I'm going like I'm GonNa go cast that ballot. I'm GonNa go emperors where my mask all that I just I just don't want to wait anymore you know I just wanted to get that vote cast but have you to you know planned out how you're going to be voting. Pass because I don't have A. Oh, that's right. Fair enough fair enough fair enough man while still. Early as well. So whenever California opens up which I think is like an early October or something just to number one. Get it done right However whether it's like showing up in person to one of the sites or just mail it in and so on and so forth. But and that's what I do. Every election cycle like whatever early voting happens just get it done right? It's like a thing you do on your to do list for me, and of course, given this year. Being available during like actual election time as we get closer to perhaps help out in some way, which I honestly don't have a plan for is just GONNA keeping that option open but I think that speaks to my larger anxiety is like what do I do if anything? Of course I pro- probably do something just given lamb. But. What does that thing and I hope you're disagreeing with me correct. Tony because this is one of those like cut predictions in my head I don't WanNa be right about obviously. But I'm just like I. Don't know how no no and based on two thousand sixteen we need to I mean you know by this? We need to be as absolutely skeptical of any good news as possible and pretend like the good news is bad news and just double down on it and pretend that we're gonNA lose anyway you know because we just can't afford to not to you know what I mean. But I just got to say. Go ahead John. Wall what I was going to say since I can't contribute how GONNA. Vote. My household I think is planning to do mail in voting. Because we are still very covert cautious here, and so we're not planning on going in person but one thing I plan to do as someone who cares very deeply about politics in this country and and a social justice in this country is to do everything I can to try and turn out the vote because I know that voter suppression is going to be an issue I know that there's going to be voting irregularities and I feel like one of the main things we can do is to try and make sure the correct and accurate information is out there for people who Want to vote but maybe don't know how to do it this year make sure that their saturated with the information about how they can cast their ballot and really to emphasize not just what's happening in the White House but also to really emphasize the importance of down ballot races this year I think it's important every year but I think in this your there's so much obviously so much attention about what's happening in DC, that I think it's a good time to remind folks that they need to be paying attention to the down ballot races as well and to and to cast their votes thoughtfully there and to hopefully through sheer numbers of ballots. Try to push back against what are going to be very obvious attempts to suppress the vote and suppressed particularly voters who are likely to cast votes for Democrats but the other thing I wanted to raise you know I think there's been a lot of talk in this country about over not going to find out who is going to win the presidency by election perhaps an I'm personally kind of okay with that like I would. Rather we do this do this bright. Legitimate. Reason for why it takes more time to to count ballots that have been mailed in, and we should expect a an enormous amount of million ballots this year, even despite the ways that the postal service are being sabotaged by the White House So but I would rather that. Care be put into this process, and if we if we takes weeks or months or whatever. Before we find out, you know we're all used to this twenty four hour news cycle where we expect the horse race and the sort of entertainment news kind of you know tempo of of election night and that wasn't the way it was. You know a couple generations back and I think where we are right now particular, very unique situation that we are where the. Stakes are so high I would rather not have situations where we're prematurely calling winners, one way or another without having counted most of the ballots, and I could very easily see given the general trends of Democrats versus Republicans and the degree to which the Cova cautious that on the other hand, all of the in person election day ballots. A lot of those may actually be cast for trump and a lot of the people who voted by mail or voted. Voted early or voted in in ways that maybe might take longer to count that those ballots may be preferable primarily for Biden, and so you may have you know premature calling if not by US media outlets certainly by trump himself for himself on election night based on a very small subset of all voters and so I would rather that we set the set the tone now that it's like it's okay if we don't find out who it is, let's let's focus on counting everybody that's cast in. However they are cast before we try to declare A. Winner I like the I like to I like the expectation management of Election Day angle that you just basically packaged together Jan because I think that's the biggest thing. Right? Like at least for people who WanNa get rid of trump that election day could feel like the end of a terrible nightmare that we been trying to reach for the last four years now and knowing that that may not be the day like ahead of time may a good way just to manage our own energy a little bit which thinking a lot about because let's do this right. And get the right result. The accurate resort however long needs to take with a proper process and the proper way to ensure these things to 'cause regardless of who is the result is illegitimate. A good chunk country is gonNA flip out in a very, very terrible way. Yeah, and. The only prediction I'm GonNa make about election night is that I believe that trump is going to prematurely say that he won. A, we're all going to go to better like eleven thirty. It'd be like you know what? Whatever? Term morning not. Close me like. Yeah? Yeah. CAPS. On twitter. Right. Actually. It wasn't like I know even though you don't have. Oh, you've been doing a lot to highlight these down ballot races especially Asian American candidates on your blog re-appropriate dot co I was wondering if you WanNa share just a few of the post and the candidates that you found really compelling. Listeners learn more about them. You know you're GonNa put me on the spot I didn't have that pulled up we'll. Talk. Very generally about this because. I would really encourage folks to go check out the. So one of the things that I've done in actually did this last election cycle the is when I started this series. I partnered with a group called a run for something which you may or may not have heard about run for something was launched. Try encourage a young progressive candidates of any background across the country to run for office. And they basically just help young people who are progressives who the the only caveat is. You must identifies a progressive. And just help them work through the process of running for office and they partnered with me the last election cycle and said, hey, would you like to profile some of the Asian American and Pacific Islander candidates that are running for office across the country and I said that sounds fantastic and I was especially excited about this because yeah there's a lot of emphasis on for those of us who talked about politics on national races like If we're not focused on the presidency and the vice-presidency were typically focused on Senate races union, you know sometimes the congressional races or like House races But the wonderful thing about run for something is that they were sending me candidates that had been endorsed by them to to profile and they were you know some of them were running for for house but some of them were running for like school board or city council. Is Sort of you know run the ran the gamut of possible local races, and the idea was really to just get these candidates to talk about something that they don't talk about when they get national media coverage or even local media coverage, which is to talk about their identity as Asian Americans or Pacific Islanders. However, they identified talk about what excited them about running for office give them a chance to talk about their platform, but also to talk about. What inspired them to to go into public service and how they might be able to further inspire other Asian Americans or Pacific islanders to do the same who may be sort of thinking about that now. So to really get them to talk about, I, you know their identity as Americans are Pacific Islanders and not just to talk about sort of their generic platform and you know someone who has an organizing background in in a political campaign I also designed it on the back end. So it's very simple for. Walden. Very. SMART. Keep it simple. I created a system that super simple for them and easy. So that either day or one of their campaign staff could work with them to to get done I. I also understood how to how to make this pretty simple to do. and. So this year I'm partnered again with run for something, and again we're profiling asian-american and or Pacific islander candidates. I'm also separately reaching out to a lot of candidates who may not be may not have been endorsed by run for something. Still identify as both progressive and Asian American Pacific Islander and so we now have a nice mix of folks that we have profiled. Some of them are run for something candidates and those candidates are very. Visibly labeled as having been in by run for something but we've also profiled others. The most recent we've we've profiled in the first one. You would see if you pulled up reappropriate is Helen Jim in Philadelphia who is currently elected city council, and who's going to be running again in two thousand and twenty, three and So she you know she actually. gave a fantastic. You're GONNA read one. This was one of my favorite profiles. She talked a lot about you know what? It's like to be Asian American the first Asian American woman on Philadelphia City Council but also talk just more generally about what it's like to be an asian-american in this moment in time to talk about black lives matter and the need to think about. Many different kinds of reform. To. Talked about grace, Lee boggs and your Mama and work that Helen did with. The LGBT rights. Movement and other things that she just really inspired her to like. Get involved and to talk about into to connect her work on city council was sort of the larger Asian American Movement political history and organizing history. This is indeed one of my favorite interviews that we were able to do So Api run is the series that I'm doing We are trying as much as possible to come out one every Monday that of course is contingent on getting responses from candidates But if you're interested in finding out, the idea again is to introduce. You to candidates running for office or in office at all levels of public office and to sort of get you hopefully inspired introduce you to someone. You may not have known about who maybe running locally near you, and of course, if you're excited about it, how to get more involved, how to you know maybe share more information about this candidate with your circles maybe to get involved or donate if if you're so inspired but mostly just to encourage folks to see people within the community. Taking part in public office in elected office. knows. Really Relief antastic series and I think the emphasis on local government on offices that are all elected positions that we don't normally think about. I think one thing that cove it really exposed to just how important good competent local government is right to have a really functioning city government to have a really competent county government. Especially, when the White House, the so-called central federal government is still incompetent but to really have local people just know what they're doing and be really on top of things when crisis hits is so important. And of course, we won't have as many asian-americans to be part of that conversation to be had to have season table as possible. That's kind of the whole gist of this entire podcast project right for the last almost four years now. So so yeah, really fantastic series agendas doing. Tony any thoughts on that I have maybe like one more have the topic authorities you guys before we close off and let us get back to our day. Just. Because I really can't. I mean Jen just very impactful work. So everyone rewind this podcast or the last six minutes and listen to everything Jen just set again because we need more asian-americans running for office and yeah, that's all I I can't say anything better than the Gen- that makes sense. Yeah. So the maybe the last thing I want to have a chat with guys about is this whole take talk we chat ban thing. I. Think. The three of us have very interesting. So different experienced experiences. So maybe we have different angles at this. So I didn't writing a lot about this topic for more like attack business angle for a long time on my other kind of passion project interconnected dot blog that folks and go read and is also bilingual box right in both Chinese, and English about some of these topics. But I was coming at it from a regulatory technical a business angle and I won't Belabor my own points here but Tony Euro Hollywood guy I am I am guilty Jen Jen I. Know you've already tweeted about your thoughts and reactions specifically I think to the we had been in relations to connecting with families. So I love to kind of kind of hear your thoughts, both of your thoughts on these maybe Tony, why don't you lead us off which your Hollywood? Well is very difficult for me to talk about both we chat and Tick Tock. I don't want to lump them together, but the idea of Chinese. Telecom companies that are that are in the content game Coming over to American influencing the way that that Americans think and do business and you know put content out there. So I I don't actually use either of these two platforms basically because I I'm getting old and so I don't really have much to say on the topic other than it feels to me like a little bit of hot air just because and I know we've been talking about we chat for a little bit. But earlier this week to me it was like we're going to trump was going to ban TIKTOK and we chat and it was it was a big deal twitter went crazy about it, and then a yesterday I'm seeing Internet videos saying that now walmarts and another company are. Getting involved, and so now trump's gonNA approve it and so that way is going to be okay and so for me I'm this kind of looking back and forth at this knowing that we have a platform that a lot of younger people are using very very effectively to do fun things but also in a limited capacity to spread messages for that and talking about specifically Tiktok and then we're looking at we chat, which is a mega communications platform for you know the East Asian market that definitely I mean America would stand to benefit having access to that and I'm not sure if China wants America to be able to the chat either to the extent that Americans might want to be too so. I am at this point, I don't know what to think, and I was hoping to talk to you about this issue Kevin. General quote be fresh air my thoughts. Yeah. So Jen, well, what do you save one thing I and that's I don't know nothing about Tiktok. tiktok person. I feel the same way that like you know there's there's some stuff that that it took me forever to get onto instagram and instagram, right but like and like I never. I never got on snapchat thing. So like to talk is one of those ones where I understand it, it is a huge influence especially on the culture. And the way that younger folks interact with the Internet but I I just I'm not talking I'm not a talker. So that being said, I think as someone who is part of sort of that pioneering wave not pioneer way but like the early wave of Internet adopters you know and that's I've talked about that before like I was on the Internet back when we were still doing dial up, you know. And we're all used to like that little. Joe Cities Homepage I gotcha. You know you just. Together like five Geo cities to get enough to actually do anything. Five cities accounts strong together A. Totally. Wasn't ICQ person which of anyone knows what that is I mentioned eighty-one go. Home. You're like a cool kids like Lynn kids use like A. Like The Edgy. On anyways. So so for me the what's really struck was the we chat ban I am on we chat, but only privately, no one will ever find me So if you're looking, you're not gonNA, find me. But I'm on there only to talk to to family members in China. And that's it's actually been really revolutionary for my ability to communicate with my loved ones. Who Live in? China because prior to that, our options really were like we had skype, we had email and we had text message but none of those really created the sort of friction lists conversation platform that we chat did in the way that like you know, we're all used to this idea of being able to jump onto a messaging service and just have a prolonged conversation with someone like that's part of everybody's lives. Most of us do it, you know through Facebook Messenger or we do it through our text. The idea of being able to do that with someone who's living fourteen fifteen hours away by in terms of time zones, you know I was I'm able to have conversations right can share family photos, talk about family news just check in with folks I I haven't seen face to face in in a year or years and and be able just pull them up on my phone and. Be Able to talk to them and that wasn't something that I can do easily with you know services that allow for video calling because then you've got to like schedule time on or for text message because international messaging rates typically applied. So for me, what really struck is that it would have a personal impact on my ability to communicate with people I really really care about And it's not as if I think, some people have been a little hyperbolic in the way that they've pressured. They're like, oh, we'll never be able to talk for a relatives ever again. That's probably not true. There are other messaging services that people will most likely migrate to and adopt in order to be able to fill this void. But the two reactions I have is like one this is not. The argument for National Security is not particularly compelling certainly not with regard to the way that other tech companies or social media companies carry themselves in deal with data and Kevin I'm sure you're going to talk about that a little bit more but also you know we chat I think something people don't understand about we chat if they're not from China or the Chinese American Diaspora as how central. We chat is to the way that these folks sort of carry out their daily lives like unlike I don't even think we necessarily have an analogy here in the United States, but there's so we chatted like so everywhere. So integrated into all aspects of like you know their daily lives in terms of communication, but also like paying for things which is sort of like that central APP. And so being able to communicate with with my loved ones on the APP they use all day every day that was that was I think the the piece that made it. So friction less because you didn't have to open something you rarely use for the sole purpose of talking to one person whose whose many many many miles away. You could just do that because you already had the APP open and that was what really made conversation easy for us I think that was that's the piece where it's like that's not the easily replaced part and so I I just I'm I'm a little. Baffled that this continues to be a thing that the trump White House wants to pursue and I was heartened by the the lawsuit and the and the temporary hold that was placed on the ban on by courts as I believe Friday or yesterday So hopefully, we'll just wait and see which was which was expected. This was expected to be challenged in courts and so for now the you know the the. Ban Cannot move forward and so folks using chatter are have been granted a temporary reprieve. The last thing I just want to mention though is that like this seem so baffling also because there's been so much conversation about we chat conservatism within the Chinese American community. This is sort of the home base where a lot of like trump chinese-american support really organized. You know this is where where you know tr-. Americans for trump. That's where they they sort of. Do they're all of their conversation and they're organizing work and that sort of branches with like folks who are also working in opposition to affirmative action and several other sort of. Key. Issues that have sort of solidified this very far right conservative Chinese Merkin base for trump and they are very attached to we chat not only just because of how it connects to their loved ones overseas. But also because this really was sort of the nascent point for them in terms of becoming involved in this really influential grassroots movement within the Chinese American community, and so it's really difficult for me to understand I. Mean, this isn't a fringe movement. These are folks who appear to actually have connections with the White House like we've seen them be involved in a lot of different issues most notably with affirmative action. So it's kind of. Odd to think about why this? White. House would be attacking this group, which is very fervently otherwise in support of trump can offer a thought on that and this is this is this isn't me speaking out of turn a little bit maybe I. Know Kevin, you have a much both of you have better opinions or more educated opinions on this and I do but it seems to be trump wants to talk about China just in general and also the way that the news cycle kind of flip flops on this issue at least from my viewing of it from all of a sudden not having we. To all of a sudden, it being like potentially approved in staff of the finger makes me it feels to me as if the White House is trying to manipulate the news cycle just to inject the word China just to try to conflate covid deaths or something or some some really not smart but some political strategy here just to try to inject this into the message more broadly than it relates we chat what do you think about that? Yeah no I think you're actually quite spot on on the larger political strategic value of TIKTOK and chat and I happen to use both pretty regularly for very different reasons. And take is obviously for entertainment mostly, I wouldn't even call it a social media. APP If you actually use it because there's actually no socializing that is required to use. The APP or is I. Guess some kind of entertainment out of you don't have to friend anybody or follow anybody it just gives you shit to watch, and then after a while is algorithm figures out what you like to watch and then kind of the rest of your evening as history. This is like that take top right and then we check like Jen said is so what is basically a super? APP. So you communicate with people you have group chats, you can share news articles and you can do payments and it kind of does like a bunch of different things all in one APP, and you could even make a nap within the we chat APP. So they have these things called mini programs. So it's more like almost like an operating system within your phone that does a bunch of things that you can almost live entirely within it a if you if you want to. and. The you know the product stickiness is obvious at this point and actually last night I my wife has spent a good chunk of our evening trying to. Help. Our moms and dads and other relatives in China figure out an alternative to chat if when it does get either banned or just becomes like this degraded piece of software, which is the other potential that could happen is that you could use it on your phone, but you can't updated anymore on the APP store because that will be locked off. So you have. Like a Shitty version on your phone and then relatives wherever wish does not have the ban will be able to update the phone and then we're up rather and then the problems might arise from like the mismatching of lack of interoperability within software. So not to get too nerdy on that but that's like an actual a potential outcome of this and that was Kevin. Sounds like a business opportunity for you to design the next week at like not really read because we chatted still so such an integral tour to a bunch of people, but I would like as far as I got. Opportunity or just like something to do concern is that helping old folks? All of our parents are sixty or above to transition to a new digital hall is non trivial work. Like they spent the last twenty years for us the which at and they just figured it out and the Dow love it and they're gonNa, do all these things and talk to their kids and like shared stupid fake news articles and whatever. And now they have to move move off edges to talk to people but whom they care a lot about. So which right and I think that's the part that folks are missing when they're talking about this conversation they're like well, but there's so many messaging apps out there right and like we know that other other Asian American Diasporas, for example, don't use each. Others use what's APP or they use line. So it's not like messaging APPs don't exist that could replace this function of which but that's not the point I think Kevin You you're basically hitting the thing that. That is so central as like folks who are who are not using we chat especially who are not connected to how we chat his in. China? Don't recognize the the super APP nature of it where like you know. Kinda like pay except like everything has a witch at Qr code or whatever. Right. So like you can buy people buy things with their we chat APP and people are used to paying for things through we chat They don't. There's conversations now where people almost don't even. Use money they really us. We chat to buy things just at the store or whatever, and so the. The thing that is hard to replace is that super APP aspect of it the so central to people's daily lives aspects so you could get people to you know you might convince them to adopt another messaging APP, but it will not become their core. APP because we chat perform. So many central functions for a lot of folks in China that they're never gonNA banded we chat Mona ask can I ask you a this is a bigger question. Do you think that I mean we chat as like a on a global scale, right? I mean it's it's as a super APP I mean facebook threatened by we chat in. The reason why I'm asking is I I. Am very very I like looking at tech obviously, but it seems everything is happening all the commerce right in terms of the idea that you can communicate you can post your own social media and then you can make purchases and you can sell your own stuff. In the confines of this APP it seems like we we chat is essentially like. The exact functionality is like an American would use to face or. A western American facebook I. Guess You know in many ways no while. So I think the most close analogy for an American audience who has never used, which is that it's basically apple play plus facebook messenger plus what's HAPP plus like the auto pay thing you can do on your bank's website. Plus what ask the banking elements you do with your PG and E. Bill because you can pay like utilities on it to it's just like normal life. It's not even just like buying stuff anymore is like you hook it up. At, like interface to your local municipal government in whatever province that also has like a which payment portal and they you pay your water bills using the same APP. So coming back to what you're. Actually Warriors. Have to act and the reason I add that because it's used also in business in the same way that many. Slack to to create channels to talk and Let me ask you this then too. So the banking element is backed by the bank China or something or financial apparatus is is is the money held in? So that's a very interesting one, and I think this is getting kind of the weeds of the Chinese like tech ecosystem but there's actually some tension with the we chat pay ecosystem and the actual Banco China like the Central Bank of China like the people is going to go China and the reason is I think they're on a slightly different infrastructure. Okay. Bank like the Central Bank that Prince two be bills just like our Federal Reserve has been getting relative actually Kinda concerned about chat pay and also Ali pages. The ALIBABA payments is okay. Was the other domino one is that the Ashley can't keep track of how many like currency is actually circulation like? Just printed you know FIVE MILLION ONE HUNDRED R&B Bills, and now poof they're all becoming qr codes. Where are these bills and like they'd like the job of a bank is like track the circulation of currency, recycle the pennies, Ryan like all these other things they do. But. That just kind illustrates how pervasive digital payment is in China. Especially, we chat but also how it, how much of an interesting kind of relationship they have with the big banks who does regulate them to an extent as well. So they have to play like a partnership or like be frenemies with each other or something like that. So. That's A. Encapsulation of it, but coming back to the whole like trump using this as a way to keep injecting China into the political conversation right to distract people from whatever they can be distracted from I. Think There's a lot of merit to that 'cause anti China. Or China bashing has been a winning message or would they will believe to be the winning message? I'd say like bashing. Biden China. Right. It's like one of the thing you know they're looking in two hundred. Biden's dealing a business dealing in China, for example, as a way to kind of poke at by the for example, to make him look soft on China being tough on China has always been this like relatively winning and even like a unifying message in Congress, which is very interesting for trump. So that's been in the playbook for a long time and I think. Take talk and we chat. The ban or whatever. This could end up being is. They're kind of like collateral damage in this larger strategic. Objective. That trump election campaign is trying to achieve, and this is actually not to paper over the fact that we had to talk both have legitimate data privacy issues that rent could be a real policy item to talk about and should be talking about seriously and I've written a lot about how there are real technical ways to actually regulate these kind of problems and you look into them. So we as American citizens or people who use these APPs abroad. Actually should know whether our data is in danger of being abused or not by a foreign government like this is a real problem. Right. But we're not actually talking about an MD is probably in a substantive way is mostly just trump and the commerce department being like these ads were made by Chinese people in China we should ban them because Chinese people are bad. And I just wanted to double back to the data privacy issue because to me I, I agree that there is a potential for Concern here but I think that as you said, it's right now it's mostly just hand waving and I think that if there was a an investigation and there really were reports of concern that might you know rationalize not necessarily a ban but certainly more conversation and investigation into how this could be done securely. But I also think that there's a double standard because there are data equity issues and data access issues and privacy issues that are associated with basically all large social media an. APP type thing type corporate giants, right? Like you know we're talking about what happening to your data if you use TIKTOK but we're not talking about The many ways in which facebook has permeated every aspect of our digital cells and are placing ads in our timelines from like our Google searches or worse. You know there's a level of. Data like data privacy issues that Are Part of many of the APPS that we typically use on a day to day so we're going to have a conversation about privacy and digital data. We should have that conversation. Eh respective of whether we're talking about Tiktok we chat or facebook twitter or any of these other asset are part of many of our daily lives. I. Say that someone who's a very heavy facebook user and I feel I, kind of have to be given the work that I do online But I would love to be having this conversation about our privacy and our rights as digital citizens to our data. But I think you're right. We're not having that conversation right now and so to the extent that they're targeting which TIKTOK. We're we are absolutely missing an opportunity to have I think a very overdue conversation about how much these large tech companies should have access to And I say that regardless of which Tech Company, like I want us to be having that conversation about. There's a lot of hypocrisy to all this. There's a lot of just kind of blaye brazen. Politicking over these products that obviously also Rico Phobia and that's the unfortunate part for me is that. Whether you WANNA use Tiktok or we had as the Pinata to get a conversation started. That's fine by me one way or another. But the fact that we are only targeting these two very much relatively small products you know as far as like user accounts in the grand scheme of things like we chat may have a few million users who are all Chinese Americans or people connected to the Chinese diaspora. In America in America in America. Yeah Talk is a fast-growing APP that has hundreds of millions of users that we've discovered now. So that could be like a bigger piece of the whole ecosystem of how people use their phone but there are there's facebook and all as families of APPS. What's up there is whatever google is doing. There is pinterest there's twitter obviously there's snapchat and they all collect data to sell as that is at the end of the day how they keep the lights on and we're the we're not coming up with a holistic framework to really talk about this we'll just be Oh, look Chinese technology bad let's kick them out because of so called national security concerns I would like to see validated verified like if there is concerned yeah banned the thing but I just want to know you know as a citizen of this country so. So anyway. Also go ahead. Sorry. I was just going to add one last thing in top of on top of just selling our data. The other thing that we haven't talked about that, we should be with regard to like facebook twitter etc is how they're filtering our information that's particularly relevant for November and the election cycle and all of the you know not verifiable news that floats around. That we now know is away for foreign governments to influence our election as well as tech companies to influence our elections by showing us you know certain kinds of news over others just through their their content algorithms or inappropriately elevating news that has not been properly reported or essentially fake. Totally. Totally by the way I forgot to add Lincoln link then another one. Who uses link in anyways I use the time. I always worry about linked and not because of I just don't know who's looking at me and it tells me people who are looking at me and that makes me paranoid. So isn't that creepy? Yeah a little bit well, especially when it's like during the trump administration and the immigration department is looking at, you like, what are you talking about? You know what I mean so You have to pay the money to know who's looking at you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's. It's I. Mean I know people who love Lincoln and it is a wonderful venue like you know for for finding work and for displaying your work experience of course but I don't know I find linked in the most creepy. Incredible anyways. So close off this conversation, which is like a really kind of per fun bit. Hopefully I know we're all trying to distract ourselves from. This whole situation. Any good movies lascaux recommendations that you guys have experienced so far that. That were good escapism options. If you're not watching lovecraft country love country one more time. What was it again? LOVECRAFT COUNTRY lovecraft country on HBO. Yeah. We just got into that. And working our way through the episodes that have come out already very much enjoying it. I don't have an HP lovecraft background and so I've been reading a lot of news where people are are watching this for the first time and going wait what's a sundown town and I'm having the completely opposite reaction was like wait what's HP lovecraft so I don't necessarily have to like the pop culture reference of of you know lovecraft and all of that writing but it's a really well acted a really wonderful. Show, and I'm not really into the horror genre. So I'm really enjoying it the other one. I'm just going to drop a really quick plug for. This is actually from earlier in the pandemic, my husband and I watched and binged all of the seasons of Kim's convenience on-ice part of the Corentin and that was truly amazing and I heard on twitter that the latest season is coming out on Netflix's in a month or so and we are both. So excited you know we interviewed polly for this pod Reggie. Yeah I I grew up in Toronto and so to me, I didn't get a chance to watch a lot of Kins, Kinski I watched a couple episodes right at the beginning sort of more for a review for the site but. I was really busy and wasn't able to keep going, and then it was something that my husband and I picked up right when the quarantine started, we just needed some sort of escapism and we binged like three seasons of Kim's convenience in like two weeks. It was so fun in one of the things that really struck me afterwards was that it really captured what it was like to grow up in Toronto. Just that feel of what Toronto is like as sort of a community as space being Asian American in that space. On the sort of like casual. multi-culturalism not to say that Toronto is, is like some sort of racial utopia it's not but like the the the sort of way that. You encounter people of different backgrounds that it felt. Very Toronto? TORONTO. Toronto with. Okay. You blended together right. No. TORONTO TORONTO. So it felt very, Toronto. So if you're watch like for me, it was just a throwback to. That show to coney any thoughts your Hollywood guy again I'm gonNA keep labeling you. So there's a lot of writing this suggestion before we close My life has been revolving around the television show that I'm working on right now, which is the rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony. So over the next couple of months, I'm not sure exactly when this will be out on TV sobe on the lookout for that, we got a great cast of characters who are being inducted into the rock and Roll Hall of fame this year. We Got Whitney Houston the notorious B I g depeche mode. T REX nine inch nails few other people to really really cool. Show him working on. But the thing that's been blowing away me pop culture. Wise. I'm a huge science fiction nerd. I'm sure everybody who follows my twitter account knows this but I have been doing a lot of my favorite book of all time, which is Dune. In anticipation of the film that is supposed to come out in December. But at some point over the next twelve months, it will come out and I am so very excited to go and see Dune in I max when it comes out and the trailer dropped last week, which was absolutely mind blowing for me. So I wanted to put in that plug read the Book Dune. Again, did is my favorite book and I'm excited for that movie to come out hopefully in December but we'll see. Awesome. Well, everybody that is the episode for today. Thank you for tuning into the model majority podcast co hosting with Jiang found of re appropriate. Love you guys hope to talk to you.

Donald Trump White House twitter China Tony Jen Jen Uncle Kevin Supreme Court president US John Fang Ruth Bader Facebook partner Joe Biden NPR
Private equity, explained

Vox's The Weeds

52:38 min | 1 year ago

Private equity, explained

"This episode is sponsored by the Antigen. A new podcast powered by. Pfizer the engines eight episodes deep dive into vaccines show hosted by Dr Yasmina gusty exposure vaccination both scientific and historical perspectives details. It's profound global impact of the antigen features health experts doctors and researchers to discuss the scientific cultural and political elements of vaccination You can listen to subscribe to the Antigen at Pfizer Dot Com. Slash vox today. That's PF is e. e r dot com slash. Vox To start listening right now. Is Your Business as cures. It could be. It's not if you're still running windows. Seven support ended for windows seven on January fourteenth. Get modern windows. Ten pro devices with Intel core an Intel core processors and the latest version of Microsoft Office. You can boost productivity cut management time and cost and make your business more secure upgrade now in be great visit Microsoft's partner. Cdw AT CDW DOT com slash. Be Great Make the shift. Private equity is one of these things that a lot of people talk about. It's become a subject to political conversational odd. An almost nobody understands but it actually is accepting people work in the industry. An exception to that is Emily Stewart as. She's a colleague of mine here at Fox. She's a great reporter. She's up in New York. She understands politics but she really understands. Wall Street Finance She sat down with me really broke down. This industry is about by its controversial. What it does. What kinds of policy changes might help? You'RE GONNA hello. Welcome to another episode of the meets on the Fox media podcast network. I'm Matthew yglesias joined today by box dot coms own. Emily Stewart who is an author of many fantastic articles Recently one that I thought was really interesting. We'll be really interesting to the weeds audience in his about private equity which is a a mysterious but also often discussed concept. Ray Well it sort of thing that I think a lot of people don't know a ton about but you see enough headlines about it like you. Maybe don't know what private equity does but you know that toys R. US isn't doing too well anymore. Not Around Right and the fever right. It was like there was like a Tiller Swiss private equity controversy to like Elizabeth. Warren has like a like a plan about private equity. And it's it's often in the mix right like like you may not care about finance but like politics pop culture retail and keeps like intruding right. I mean I even a couple of months ago is looking for payless shoes and I was like Oh wait. It doesn't anymore like that is because of private equity and obviously easy like a Taylor Swift Elizabeth Warren and like what the Private Equity Industry will tell you is that this is a problem but you look a little bit deeper and it's not exactly true that this is just like we just don't understand how wonderful they are right. I mean it's a PR problem but also a reality I mean th this assignment had originated actually right. Because some editors from a goods vertical which were interested in sort of retail bankruptcies. Right that that sort of famous stores and brands had gone away. And at least some people said that's because of private equity right or at least you know they're involved so you have again names like toys R. US. You have payless shoes. You have radio shack. A Wad of retailers have gone under and there have been private equity names in the mix and so that was sort of how this all began. Plus then you have Taylor swift out there talking about Carlisle Group which is also big private equity name and so there's really just been like a moment over the past several months of like okay. What's going on? What are these people doing? And so one of the things that I remember from when I when I wrote moneybox for slate and People had questions about hedge funds Was that it turns out that there isn't like a like a super strict definition of like what is a private equity fund. Tried like it's a it's a people in the business press like used the term and they have something in mind. But it's not like you know like this is a giraffe and that's an elephant. So I mean woman is talking about Private Equity Lake. It's kind of a nebulous. Turns also hedge funds in the mix venture capital but a lot of the time. What you're hearing about lately when people are talking about private equity what they're really talking about are leveraged buyouts who's basically. I'm private equity firm. I by a company like let's say I buy toys R. US but instead of buying one hundred percent of toys R. US. I kick in thirty percent of the money. And then the other seventy percent. I basically acquired through loading up toys. R. US with debt so then it's toys R. us. That was that money back to creditors I thirty percent and so then what kind of ends up? Having these companies have so much debt that they need to pay back that they can't invest in their business anymore so like yes has been hard for retail because of e-commerce. Of course if I'm paying all of my money toward the interest that I owe that I can't make any investments even attempt to compete right. So let's try to break this down like how how this works. I mean people have have loans Student loans off in which are very different from this But but home mortgages or I think sort of relevant analogy right like very few people have enough money sitting around in the bank to buy a house Would you do is you put you know ten or twenty percent down and the rest you get a loan from the bank and the loan is secured by house. Which means like if you don't pay what you owe the bank can take your house because houses are valuable. Bank is willing to lend you at a better interest rate and so a leverage buyout is like that but instead of a house you buy toys right but then also the house was the money and not you when you run out of money like that is what happens like a house obviously cannot oh money toys. R. US owes money like toy win. It's not toys R. US MONEY. But then eventually you know it is the employees that lose out. It's a company that eventually has to disintegrate because the creditors are going to suck out whatever they can when the company goes under so it's like toys R. US it exists. It has shareholders and it has some value right some market capitalization and so you the fund come to the shareholders. You have an offer right and you usually have to pay something above the face value and then you go to a bank or creditor and you say okay toys shareholders. Say They will sell me the company if I get a billion dollars if I kick in two hundred million. Will you lend me eight hundred million right? Except it's not going to be me is you're gonNA lend it to toys. R. US exactly. And that's what happens and then again like if toys the rest is trying to pay back this money then it becomes really hard to make any changes to the businesses that they need or you know to hire more employees or to try and build up some sort of e commerce operation and so eventually they run out of money and like a lot of times to like these companies are already struggling. They're not doing super well within a private equity firm swoops in but it at a lot of the time they fail and when they fail they fail really big and and so when you say not doing well read so a situation a company can be is like it's profitable all right but the market seems to be decline right that in particular ride so it's like more people buy stuff on the Internet right so the prospects for your store or getting worse and it's like the question is okay do you. Do you do something to like? Try to turn that around or do you just continue making money as long as you can pay a lot of those profits off and then go bust some day and we'll see what the private equity industry will tell you is that they're going into things that ought they're taking on more risk than maybe others would want to take on and that sometimes they're going to fail but they're also giving these companies capital so like if it is a public company that they're reporting their earnings quarter after quarter. They're saying that basically you have a little bit more time if you're private to try and turn things around. And they're doing the best that they can and lie was reporting this story out on toys R. US move things I found was that P. B. S. in twenty ten had done a segment on basically why private equity is bad and is hurting people and one of the examples that they use toys. R. US and a lobbying group had written to PBS. Afterwards telling them that you know. They weren't as bad as they seem to. That piece had been unfair and that one of their success stories at the time was toys R. US which had been bought by three private equity firms in a few years before and so obviously at that time they thought things like potentially would go better. But obviously there's a whole worked right put people. There's a lot of focus sort of put on these these failures right and that can make the whole thing seem very puzzling because like obviously you can't get banks to loan you money just to buy businesses that are going to go bankrupt right. I mean there's there's a numbers game there right so like like how does it? How does it work like? How does this typically make bunny for the people involved because I mean toys? R US store is very sad for the people who work there. So obviously you're hoping when you lend money to the Private Equity Company Particularly because you don't lend it to the company you lend it to the acquisition target. So you're hoping that you're going to get paid back right. I mean it. I don't want to overstate that. Iraqi fails every time like blackstone. Not that long ago had helped Turnaround Hilton. Fourteen billion dollars. There is money to be made and obviously like if they're more money being made investors wouldn't be kicking money into private equity firms. Either it is like it's not the worst thing in the world again like I said before. Basically the problem is sometimes when it fails it fails big but also there is an issue of a lot of the time at least private equity firms. They're making money anyway. They are charging a two percent management fee a lot of the time to investors so there are at least make enough money to stay afloat and then when it does go while they have to hit some sort of hurdle rate so basically they have to return certain amount to their shareholders percentage but then afterwards when it goes well they get twenty percent of three carried interest. So there's a lot of money to be made here. And so the the risk is worth it to them and they don't hold the sort of most fundamental kinds of risk. I mean they'll say well okay. We have a lot of capital at risk right but you just work someplace right and then you lose your job. That's like Or if your town right. That's built around a factory and then it closes. That's like a more. It's like it's like a more humanly profound form of risk than like well. I had a lot of money at stake in this. Because I'm a rich person who has enough money to have a lot of money at stake and things right and also like if you are. I mean I think again. In the case of toys R. US to keep bringing it back to that but the the firm that had invested in that probably made their money back anyway just because they held onto it for so long through management fees. But obviously yeah like if you are I mean obviously our pension fund or you're an accredited investor basically Mesnier rich person investing in private equity firm. You're investing in a fund like you have some money that you can lose. Obviously you don't want to lose your money but it's like you said it's not the same. It's like well I don't have a job anymore. Because for my regulatory standpoint whether Your Business Model is leveraged buyouts venture capital investments or hedge funds stuff would sorta unites these companies is that they raise their money from what's called accredited investors. And what does that mean? Most of the time like in Layman's terms. That means you're very rich so make a little bit more specific. It's either that you have a net worth of one million dollars or you make two hundred thousand dollars annually on your own or three hundred thousand dollars between you and your partner each year. So you're you're well off and basically the appointment accredited investors to say you can afford to take some risks and lose money in a way that like somebody making fifty thousand dollars. Years should not be read so this qualifies you as the Fund. If all your money comes from a credit investors you are put under a much laxer regulatory constraint on the theory that if you just steal these millionaires monies Like we don't really care right and product would eat. Firms will also raise money for funds from like pensions or sovereign governments are institutional investors. Basically they're playing with money that can afford to be lost and supposedly pension funds and things like that have have sophisticated managers. Who Know what they're doing and whether that's actually true or not. I think it's a big is a big question right. I mean because part of the way these funds make money is they make investments that pay off but part of it is they charged very high management fees right. I mean these guys like if you're a partner at a private equity firm you are. You're making money like you. You raise like do whatever two billion dollar fund and you're taking in two percent of that and slaying of amongst the other partners and obviously other fees that you have to pay taxes and whatever else that's still a lot of money right and in so but I think people have raised pretty big questions as to like. Does this make money for the investors in these funds? Actually right I mean. Obviously it has some points paid off but like on average are the returns actually worth because you you pay. What like twenty percent of the investment gain two percent of the total right. Yes so you're I mean you're paying a lot of money and there is a question but obviously like if you're a pension fund you're also probably diversify I mean hopefully it's not like I don't know cause them wanting to do something but yeah hopefully like part of the answer you know what people tell you is like interest rates are really low right now. It's like investing in bonds and treasuries is not Super. He'll like things like that and so basically pension fund is kind of like part. I'm sorry a private Equity Fund is part of the investment. Next with a lot of these people are doing in the sort of best version of it. Right I mean if you're doing private equity pr you would say okay. Well we come in right. We take you. It's called private equity because you You go out of the public market and so now away from the day-to-day scrutiny of like stock market craziness. I can come in with my managerial expertise and like we make the company better we. We're turning look these companies around right and like I spoke with. I mean Applebaum. Who's an expert on the economist? And you know what she said is the most successful private equity firms and funds are the ones that you never hear about their real small. They don't make a lot of noise. So it's not like the Baynes it's not like the KKR's that everybody's heard of you know. They come in and they have real small expertise. They know specific Nizhny in a specific area. And so I guess maybe they know just about biotech or just about healthcare just about grocery whatever and they're just buying really small family businesses that may be just don't have the expertise to scale up or like take the next step in their business but we don't know what they are because they're not you know they're not showing it from the rooftops Ellen. Anyone there just kind of raising their funds as they can and making their money as they can. So that's sort of like so so I mean she's like I say known as a private equity credit. Yes but this is her sort of attempt to give give their due to the concept right but she's saying okay so like a real turnaround shop would be small and focused and we know a lot about right. Whatever fishing rods right exactly and you know even the bigger firms will tell you that now like they're more organized among different industrial verticals so that there is expertise. But there's also situation and I found this a lot in reporting finance and Wall Street that everybody will say like me. Be the industry's bad. But they specifically are good And so you know the guy is at. I mean the guys in private equity will tell you that they are good but really the problem is the bank. That's like doing the lending or the guy at blackstone. We'll tell you like he's doing the right thing. But like the guys over at Bain. Maybe are not and so there's also like just an awkward like and I think that's just human nature but it definitely thing to happen. Let's let's take a break and then want to talk about some of the specific companies in this. Mix this episode to sponsored by the Antigen and exciting new podcast powered by Pfizer over. The last few years has been a frustrating cloud of misinformation swirling around vaccines this country. The World Health Organization even called the Anti Vaccination Movement on the top ten global health threats of twenty nineteen. Now more than ever we should be talking about. Our nation entered the antigen the energy. Podcast doesn't every aspect of vaccination across eight episodes. The show covers the basic science. Vaccines Explores the history of public sentiment about vaccination and investigates global impact fastening blended scientific cultural and political elements of vaccination that we should all be listening to right now. Are you going to hear from renowned experts from all over the world like the doctors administering vaccines the scientist developing new ones? The people whose families have been impacted by vaccine preventable diseases. You can listen to subscribe to the adviser. Dot Com slash. Vox today that's PF is e e r dot com slash box to start listening right now. Hi this is Matt. I want to tell you about the second season. Evita's no passport required. Pbs Show is hosted by renowned chef. Marcus Samuelsson Harlem Hotspot Red Rooster. A No passport. Required celebrates immigrant communities across America. And they're important immigrations to their cities scenes and sees the two sandwich travels to La with the largest Armenian community homeland resides. He goes to Houston to one of the highest numbers of West African Ex. Patriots and Philadelphia. Were Italian Americans have pride for generations? They got other episodes focusing on the Chinese American community. Vegas which is just exploded over the past twenty years and to Boston where Samson Explores portuguese-speaking cultures and food traditions. From three different locales. Brazil can Verde and Portugal from shopping and prepping meals to professional chefs. Eating with home cooks Samson takes viewers along his journey learn more at each city's immigrant food culture. Make sure you check out no passport. Required season two. Pbs Weekly at nine. Eight central on Mondays consume the whole season now at PBS DOT. Org Slash. No pass required. It's PBS DOT ORG slash. No pass require. So you mentioned a few names. Blackstone at Bain K. K. R. I think some people were call from Mitt Romney's presidential campaign. What are the of biggest players in this industry? I mean those are really the ones that you named that people have probably heard of so like blackstone Is Associated with Stephen Schwarzman. Who's a big trump guy You have banned. Everybody knows because of Mitt Romney they were also involved in toys R. US same goes for K. K. R. Carlisle groups and other big one That was remade. David Rudenstine think he's still there. I'm not sure may but So they're bigger. What's and a lot of these are publicly traded. Now which doesn't mean that you're investing in the private equities fund but you can like invest in a stock that tracks how things go for them. But you're not putting your money into like the big money fund right. 'cause they raise funds do the thing and I. It's all so I think what what some people have have told me as there's like big big picture. Criticism is that really. Most of this isn't about like improving the real operation of the company. But it's still say the phrase financial engineering like what? What does that mean? I mean it's just like how do you make as much money out of this is possible. How do you make as much money for shareholders for yourself as possible so whether that's like going into retail chain and saying okay like this like this store? The small doesn't work anymore. But Hey we have all this real estate we can sell off or you spilling up the company in different ways or doing basically whatever you can kind of make enough money and then either be able to sell the company off in parts or sell it off the whole wind down whatever you need to do basically to extract as much as you can right and this was sort of like selling off. Parts OF COMPANIES WAS A. I think a big narrative in the in the eighties. I'm this is people are Fans of pretty woman is what Richard Gere is doing. there And he's supposedly learns that he should seek higher aspirations in business The the thing where but the idea is that like a company it can be more complicated than you might think ride so I mean one thing I remember is Yahoo most Americans knew from like got who stuff they had email they had finished but yet who also had investments in like some Asian companies and those Asian companies have become very valuable so a lot of the value of Yahoo Stock was bound up in the value of those other companies in a complicated way and then basically there was. There was just like this idea that. Like if you unwound this it would actually make more money for for shareholders right to private equity can do a lot of that right like not not analysis of like. How do you run the business? But Nelson's of House the Business Structure Ray happened public markets to like you hear of you know companies like spinning off like a subsidiary or. I mean like if Google Google could theoretically spin off youtube. They're not going to but the good work could make them But yeah so. That's what it is. I mean basically. It's just like you buy this thing in. Like how can you make money off of it? Rat and how. How can you arrange it to be more sort of shareholder optimal and and this is one reason? Private equity matters is because the threat of takeover impacts how businesses operate when they're not under private equity management rank. They're like the before leveraged buyouts happened routinely. There was like one style of running companies but this is connected with like now how public companies are run to right. Yeah I mean if you're if you're a public company to you risk like in an activist investor buying up like a part of your company and coming in and saying all right you gotta do these five things to make me happy and also by the give me six board seats and like get rid of your CEO or whatever they want like this generally how capitalism works and because we are assist that we really value like the main point is to make money for your investors and to make money for your board. Whoever else like that's just how it is yet so activists investors are. I think sort of conceptually related to this right but the difference is an activist investor. I guess normally doesn't by the whole company right there just investing. I mean they'll just buy up like part of a publicly traded company and it depends on how big the company is seeking by three percent. And then do that. I mean private equity firm really comes in and they buy like a big part of it or sometimes a of bunch of private equity firms will buy a company together and that's called the club deal. A few of them will pick something up in a while back like there was some speculation that someone was going to buy walgreens in like one firm probably isn't gonNA by Walgreens but if you could but basically we don't see those yields as much anymore because like pension funds will tell you or anybody who is a private equity investor you have diversified portfolios of. You have like money in like KKR and Bain and they both invest in the same company and it goes poorly. You lose money breath. So that's counterproductive to what the investors like wanted right. I mean you were saying like well. This is capitalism. Mike like this is how how it is And I think I mean I remember when I was talking With Elizabeth Warren and her team about the kumble capitalism act and stuff and part of their idea. Is that well you know. It's not like America had gone communist in the fifty sixty s but we didn't have finance playing that same like incredibly prominent role in the management of companies right so it's like private equity is like capitalism at its most like capitalism me right in what she and others have proposed is really sending some rules of the road with private equity that that doesn't get rid of private equity entirely that makes it a lot differently so basically if I'm a firm in I invest in a company and it does go bankrupt. I don't get to just walk away and say well that's too bad like that. I'm actually on the hook for some of that debt. That that I've put onto the company that I have to do something for the employees who have lost their jobs. How viable is that? This is going to become. Actual legislation is unclear. I was talking to in associated who is at At conference a few months ago and he had told me that there had been a slide about Elizabeth Warren's plan and they laughed about the idea that they would be on the hook for debt. So you guys aren't terribly. They laughed because they don't think it'll just can't pass right. There's no way but like there could be some more oversight but there really isn't and especially now like we have been in this world like short shareholder primacy since the eighties and this is kind of where we are and so I mean the thing about being on the hook for the debt right. Is that basically when companies become more indebted? Like you don't. It doesn't have to be private equity to to create the situation where I like. The management of any company could decide to and sometimes they do to like take out big GLONAS and then flush out extra cash in a dividend But they often don't because it just puts you more at risk right and like dead is not bad for companies especially right now. Interest rates are low. Like if you're a any corporation like you probably want them dead on your balance sheet but you don't want so much debt that literally you cannot do anything else. Try and pay off your debt. Just like a normal human being if I have ten thousand dollars in credit card debt and I can't pay my rent while like there. We go and in a traditional explanation. Right if I'm trying to do like debt one on one and like why is it okay to go into debt? I would say like well. You know sometimes accompanied needs a loan to build a new factory right. Sometimes you need alone to go to college and you're investing in the future and the thing about the private equity style debt is that it's not for that purpose right. It's just it's to make the purchase right well and I was talking to a friend of mine who works for a private equity focused publication. He was saying like even you see how analysts notes will change like when I don't know they got private equity firm I like Bison an oil company or something oilfield like at first day analysts will be like yes like they have this debt. But they're going to make this much money so they can definitely pay it off and also will be having enough to invest in turnaround and then like a year later the analysts are like we don't have enough money but even that like there's this optimism at the beginning and whether that is because the analysts just don't know what they're talking about or something else is going on but like over time if you are just kind of like constantly on a sinking ship. You can't dig yourself out then like you gotTa make change got shut down and and this relates to. I think people sort of larger perception that like what finance is doing is not what we have wanted a financial system to do or like what people would have most traditionally sort of explained. Like you know. I don't know you like trying to tell kids. Like like wire. Their banks like what is this four and you would make a lot of stuff about like loans and investments and Bobby Blah Blah Blah Whereas this at least seems very abstract. Yeah and I mean. It's just hard to tell. I mean I was talking to a woman who worked for deadspin which is the website that his basically has not published anything since November and they were taken over by private equity firm earlier this year and she was saying you know I came in and they were telling us we're gonNA touch aditorial but you the business side. They were going to turn around. It was going to get better. And then she said the more that we spoke more it was like they had just done no research on what the business was what worked on the website. When didn't what got traffic with didn't and I think that is sort of an issue that happens with private equity a lot as well or at least in some people you can talk to you. Is that these firms will come in and not really know what they're buying Carlisle Group. Which is one of the firms that his funded the the record label. That Taylor swift is shooting with like these guys didn't know that they were like walking into some giant fight with Taylor Swift. And that's also part of the problem right and you obviously. Vox Media's investors all yeah we we love you guys are great but it's the other ones that are bad and this is something that a long time ago. I think Larry. Summers wrote a paper about breach of faith in leveraged buyouts right and so one one thing that you see like in the editorial right. Is that people who work in the media business. I don't know like if you look at an employment contract at vox or anyplace else. It doesn't say that much it's like you're going. GonNa come here and read some stuff from we're GonNa pay you some money and whatever But if you work in the business like if if you work in the industry or if you work at this company it's like their tacit understandings of like. What are we doing here? What is our purpose right and like a notion that people are trying to have fulfilling careers that you would. You wouldn't invest in a company unless you thought you would make money. Wouldn't go work in journalism unless you have like a passion for it on some level and like the bosses to be effective needs of respect that on some level but you can come in and like legally speaking just be like no fuck all that right right and there's money to be made in the short term by exploiting the gap between like people's tacit understanding of like how how life is supposed to work and what your real legal obligations to people are which there aren't a lot may well and it's not like you know if somebody else buys. Vox Tomorrow I. It's just like I get to walk out the door and but I don't know I don't like you guys anymore and I definitely have a new job that I can get just tomorrow by like snapping my fingers so you kind of like you're stuck in this situation of like okay. Please like private equity gods or whoever else like the owners of my business. Keep me employed right right. And it's like I could drop you drop like dumb economics model. That's like well. If the new owners treat the employees poorly than in a competitive labor market they'll reallocate to the double but like in the real world is hard to change jobs right and I think a lot about the people at deadspin who can resigned en masse like last fall in like that is like a great amount of solidarity but also I cannot imagine how some of them probably would have felt weaker to later being like Holy Shit. I just quit my job. And the media market is very difficult to find another job in right now and when they did it right it was like a big story right and there was a lot alike supportive tweets and they were takes and stuff. But then okay. It's three four five weeks later like the world has moved on right to like snake. Emoji controversies and whatever else and like there you are right like it's it's a brave thing to do because the downside is very real like an tweet is not only pay my rent or my phone bill or whatever else that money to all the time and it's just not a rapidly growing you know industry right. I mean the the the good news for like America is that the labor market is a lot better today than it was like four or five years ago. But it's often not that good or it's not that good in particular industries are in particular places and you're kind of stuck right when like again to kind of circle back private equity they have. I mean some of the industries where you know. The most of a private equity being involved industry already are not doing great so like local media journalism retail. There's so if you lose retail in your experience it's also you're in kind of an industry that's already not doing great. Yeah and often the private equity contribution I mean I. I feel you've really seen this in media. Is that instead of being that the private equity comes in? They like help. Try to turn the company around. Is that the private equity comes in. And they are completely unsentimental about the business and so instead of like putting up the good fight and lasting for twenty years and a declining industry. They're just like all right. Let's sell off the paper clips right and you know higher. You know a bunch of twenty two year olds who can pay zero money to to like deuce them. Seo's story isn't trying game. Google and let go of everybody. Who's been there forever? You Soak it. It's like you figure no matter what we do. This newspaper is doomed. Yes so instead of trying to do our best. We'll spend as little as we can soak the existing subscribers for as long as they're alive and walk away right and it's like it's like a newspaper. Guy Just like would do that right but it it takes a private equity person to see it so clearly and I guess I would say it's good to have capital deployed more efficiently. Yeah that is saying that this is this is that we live in. What are you GONNA do right? Yeah so okay. Let's let's take a break and talk about I. I wanted to talk about big big ideas. Hi I'm Ariel Zim. Ross and I'm the host of podcasts cold reset reset is a podcast about the impact of technology how humans have shaped it and how technology reflects values and biopsies reset is also a podcast. About how much good tech has accomplished. And how much better? It could be if we listen to each other. Recently we've covered stories about how artificial intelligence is being used to track corona virus. We've also covered how to solve the problem of child predators on Gaming Sites. And why are night? Sky might soon be filled with thousands of new satellites subscribed to reset for free on apple. Podcasts spotify or in your favorite podcast APP later nerds. Hey I'm Sean Romper my host today explain for Vox and we are celebrating episode. Five hundred for five hundred episodes. We've been asking one question every day. What should the news sound? Maybe it should sound trippy. I realized for the first time that these trees were my parents. Maybe it should sound like the song spans a and sometimes it just sounds like two people trying to cope. I'm a current senior at Douglas. I'm a two thousand to graduate columbine. What if we had done more you know what if we had been as vocal as you guys are being? The news is different every day. Right well so is our show and at five hundred episodes. It's the best it's ever been so come kick it with us today. Explained from the Vox Media Hype Network. You tell me you didn't want to talk about neoliberalism But you just heard a story about it and to me. This is like the the core of it right not not the private equity like owns every company but that the concept behind private equity the company should be managed more on sentimentally and like just purely with an eye for money for shareholders like that is at the core of like modern society right. Well just like this idea that like of course we have to like help. Poor people sometimes put up some guardrails for consumers in the environment but like broadly the markets will compete away. Problems in like if a business doesn't make sense anymore. That's just too bad. They couldn't compete and also like businesses will compete away racism because bias is not profitable. That's sort of the broad theory here if you we're to buy into that. Yeah and it's like more efficiency will always be good right and the private equity companies like. That's what they're all about right. It's like you. Your company should be running more risks like you should be carrying more debt. Like you're being too afraid of spectacular failure right and like that. I mean kind of like well. The other stakeholders Like the community or your workers like we don't care but also efficiency with theoretically be good for them as well I mean it's basically it's just like mark deficiency fixes almost everything right and it's just kind of like Utopian idea that that will we're going to have I mean I guess the promise of this all right going back to the eighty s was well if you make everything. Friendlier to investors there will be more investment right and that's going to be more growth and more jobs and higher wages and and it's all worked out. Great Right I. Yeah that's why I have eighty five Internet providers and and it's fine and like I don't call try and talk to me capable and they tell me like you don't have any other options like of course we have all the options. And there's not consolidation. Everything's great No I mean obviously like had I mean it hasn't worked and maybe it's because we haven't done enforcement around things antitrust and competition or been taxing people high enough like there are plenty of answers but I think anybody can like look around and not feel like big business or like businesses in general have like saved our lives. So but what would you do though I mean? What's what's a sort of what's a different way of thinking about this because you know we talked about. Warren's proposal you know make make the company's sort of hold the the risks that they're that they're carrying but like what's a what's the sort of vision behind these kinds of ideas so I wrote up this set of papers that came out this week from the Roosevelt Institute. Which is a progressive think-tank. Basically talking about okay. So if we say that neoliberalism did not work if we say that the markets have not fixed everything like what would work and they killed a bunch of different proposals and like just for some examples. You have taken a different approach to antitrust enforcement. Basically what we've been doing in recent decades as saying as long as prices for consumers are not going up. Then it's fine and what's happened is a ton of consolidation so like if you think about how many telephone big telecommunications companies are there are not that many and sprint and mobile are about to merge if you think about he basically just anywhere in your life seems like there's a few big brands like that's a problem or you know like we have this sort of sense. Competition among businesses will be just kind of like make prices lower but like if you look at health insurance clear your health. Insurance BILL IS NOT SUPER CHEAP. Had Oh I don't know a public option for health insurance but you'd also do a public option for plenty of other things so basically saying the government can compete against business itself. Some of this has to do fundamentally though would sort of treatment of workers by that I mean I think a lot of the private equity pushback comes from out of the Labor Union space and the sense is that you know sort of relentless focus on profitability and capital return is inherently bad for for people's working conditions. Well Yeah because if your company wants to pay its shareholders in. It doesn't want to pay you like every dollar that it's not paying you everyday is paying you money side going to its investors and so. I mean I think you ve Oxley just union and then that is like exciting for us. I think that's why you see a lot of people like now talking about like a rebirth of unions. A little bit more and giving workers more power to negotiate like. Hey you have to pay attention to us in this broad scheme of like all these all of these stakeholders that businesses have to deal with and this is interesting because you know I mean I. I always remember vividly when when I was sort of new in D. C. and I was having a conversation with a guy who went on to be a very influential economic policymaker in the Obama Administration and he is sent something to him and he was like well. Would you have to understand that like the Labor share of national income is just the same all the time and we can't actually impact that And that's a very like a like a like a nerdy. We serve an obscure point but he gets a profound idea right. Like if you believe that is true then unions and everything else are just kind of pushing money around from one group of workers to another but I think it now looks to more people like no right. There's a struggle like between workers and owners for money and that private equity is a powerful contender in that struggle. Right or if you have I mean this is not private equity but if you were to have. Workers at the in boardrooms like making decisions would probably make different decisions for the businesses than if it is just a board of directors like any typical American Corporation. So I mean workers obviously like I have to make a different decision between like if I get a dollar or whoever has invested Mosca stellar like? I want the dollar and I mean the studies. I've seen sort of co-determination in Germany. So that like when workers get voices companies. They're managed more conservatively right. So it's the opposite of the light debt load thing because actual people who work someplace I mean they like money but they also put unlike. Let's not all lose our jobs right. If you're an investor you can be more like quote unquote objective about the risk or see it purely financially but like there are more dimensions to life than that. I mean like there's also a world I mean I guess it's more conservative like it. Worker would make me run the company work because it really but they're also thinking a lot longer term maybe maybe the business would be around in five years versus if like investor is just thinking about you know making whatever return here she wants. And that's the difference between like money and people right because if you're if you're a dollar and you're like well okay. I've got ten dollars. And they're spread across ten companies and if two of them go bankrupt but others are profitable then like. I'm doing fine like what's the difference one companies in Montgomery Sound. But if it's your life right I duNno. It's like journalism went away with like we. We get jobs doing something else. Yeah but like I'd be sad and like I I mean I don't know my job it'd be like I'm GonNa go via engineer but maybe I should have been very alarming right like it would be terrifying like you've lost your job like but if you have to move but if you have to Iraq. Right it's stressful. There's all there's all kinds of non like like we work in part because we get paid right but there's more to it than that to us and there's nothing more to it to like the sort of investment zone right. Well that's like I mean that's the capital include like in a nutshell like yeah basically. It's just it's capitalism. It's it's rule by capital right. Which is which is what would what it is. So you're telling me that you got some feedback on your article and people said that that you were making them sad. Yeah like two types of feedback. Some that made me said like I did hear from people writing and seeing like I lost my job at the grocery store. I lost my job to a private equity firm. Lynch was like really hard to hear and then I did have a lot of you know guys that working in private equity staying like we feel like we are good and we do help and there is a lot of upside and like nothing. There's not upside like clearly. If there were not there would not be billions of dollars in industry and so like I hear that I know that they I mean like and I'm not saying like it's the end of the world that they are the worst people in the world in like what they will tell you like anybody in the industry will tell you. We are trying our best to take money. We are often TI- non risk that no one else wants to take on and like we are hoping that things go well and when they do not let it's not our fault and you hear about them because a lot of times when they go wrong they go wrong in a very big way but it is to me one of the weirder things about finances that these are very well paid jobs but the people who have them seem to also like really want everyone to like them right but also to be honest like in like who probably gets the last laugh year of like me working in journalism or twenty five year old guy working in private equity. It's probably him like in terms of like finance But yeah like they. I mean again like everybody wants to feel like they are doing good all right. They WANNA stay that. They feel like they're doing a good thing. I don't know if you if you bankrupt the company and you lay off a bunch of people. I don't know that like even like in the rosiest of ways of thinking about what happened like you would feel good about that but what they will tell you is that it is not intentional and they go in with good intentions every single time right but I mean I I do think I mean if if we have. We have finance guys here in the audience. It's like you should think about it because like really the the purpose of the industry is to say that well you need to take these structures and like optimize the more for the interests of their equity owners and like is that a good thing right or like is what you're doing like compromising the nonfinancial benefits of important social institutions. You know for Personal Gain. Because that's that's what it looks to me like. They're doing And you know it's not it's not the worst thing in the world is not the same as Say just like killing people to take their money But like it's it's really not great right and Lake. Sometimes really maybe they do turn the business around. They do Create more jobs like I've seen some resources as when it's a private to private deal with private equity like they will create jobs but when it's a public to private they do not create jobs and in the meantime link. What does any of this mean for anybody? If you lose your job tomorrow like it's just it depends on how you define optimize like Who OPTIMIZING IT FOR? Who optimizing it for like this rich guy who already has a million dollars in the bank or like the person making ten dollars an hour on the sales for any of your seem so empathetic all to like a traditional model of like what is what is business like not inventing anything. You're not building anything really you're just Kinda screwing around with other people's Operations. I mean maybe that's sometimes of how maybe that's unfair but like maybe it isn't right if you're if you're buying up you know distress newspaper assets and then just coming up with ways to fire people like that's like that's really different from like starting a visionary media company that you think will succeed and like you say you have good intentions. But it's hard for me to see the good intentions. Yeah and you know if again like these companies. Have all of this debt all of a sudden. I think it's sometimes hard to make an argument that you're trying to invest in the long term. When like all they're investing in is paying off their interest payments plus dividends sometimes to the managers. Like if I can't even try to improve my business like how can you say that this is like a positive situation right? And it's like the the positive would have to be that the global efficiency of capital allocation is going to help someone somewhere and I don't know it seems kind of dubious. Yeah I don't know it was really fun to learn about and report out and being like Hey Taylor Swift at Elizabeth Warren and now it's just like I mean like again like with all of the people who have felt like this has been unfairly. Portrayed it's like you got a lot of money in the bank and all these toys R. US employees. That don't have jobs do not so I don't know so that cheery thought. Thank you so much Emily you know any angry angry. Finance guys out there Come TO THE WEEDS. Facebook group and let us know about the incredible things you are doing in the in the world of equity allocation so. Thanks so much as really interesting as great topic to on holiday produce our engineer at Jackson Beerfeltz producer on the back on Tuesday.

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015 - Comfort Food, part 1

Asian Americana

59:01 min | 2 months ago

015 - Comfort Food, part 1

"Happy new year. Everyone i know it's february but let's pretend i mean both the gregorian and lunar new years before we get started. I just wanna thank everyone who continues to support asian on patriotic including our new supporter. Toshi tanaka all of you really do help. Keep making the show and you can help to. By clicking support on asian americana dot com or by rating reviewing and sharing the podcast. Okay here's the show back. In march of twenty twenty during the first few days of what would turn out to be many days at home. I remember seeing this photo pop up on twitter. That caught my attention. Yes so it's a picture of a pan filled with cut up. Hot dogs canned green beans potatoes. What's missing from this. Picture is onions. And it's like all simmering in like a brown. Soya sauce mixture. that's lord mcguachie. My name is lauren miyake. I'm a senior producer npr. i use. She her i'm half japanese. I always forget which generation. I am So my great grandparents came here from japan so they are the first generation. My grandparents are second generation. My dad would have been third generation. So i'm fourth generation japanese american and learn posted a twitter caption along with that picture. And the tweet. Says i present to you the weiner dinner and the gawky family staple invented by my grandmother when she was raising three kids with no money cut up hotdogs potatoes. Soy sauce and sugar served over rice asian american fusion at its humblest and finest a comforting meal. Always that post really got me thinking. The past several months of pandemic have been really hard on all of us and have kept a lot of us at home for those of us that can afford to that means a lot of finding solace taking care of ourselves and others with some comforting meals. Today we're sharing the first two episodes about asian american comfort foods. The traditions we've done in our families as well as the adaptations and substitution different communities have picked up along the way. I'm concerned smith and this his asian americana still get. Let's go back to the initial contacts. Florence tweeden so early march. I think probably we had been in lockdown for you know five days at that point and i think we were all kind of treating this moment as like what we thought would be a brief pause. You know a chance to stay home for a couple of weeks work from home. We'd be able to like cook during the day. And you know make sour dough and all of that and during this time i do a lot of people really showing off their culinary skills and posting it for all of the internet to see but for lauren so i don't really cook much disappointment of my dad so one of the first things i went to was like this one thing i know how to make which is the weiner in which always makes my dad proud when i send him pictures of it. I mean i don't make it very often because it is like an utter and total sodium bomb. And i also get the impression that like. It's a love that grew in childhood and so newcomers to the dish or sort of like not. So sure about this cut-up hotdogs over rice thing. So i think it's more of a personal meal but on this occasion the weiner dinner was on the menu and lawrence kitchen when i make it. I am pretty much clinging to like a recipe that my dad wrote down. Everyone else in the family makes it based on memory and so there's not a disclosed amount of sugar or soy sauce putting the pan. It's just like we just eyeball it and do it until it looks right so the very beginning process where you're putting sway sauce and sugar in a pan and like heating it. Up is like very stressful for me. Because i'm just like trying to get it right and it never quite taste like my dad's or right doesn't have the right texture. So that part. I think is kind of fraught. And then you put the Onions and potatoes. And and you kind of wait for them to soften and then like the hot dogs and then at the very last minute green beans because they really need to warm up. They really should not get any mush here than they already are. You can definitely help it up with The frozen kind but like you know. The genesis of the recipe has just. This is very easy very affordable. Like you don't have to go to the store for it. It's something you can like. Grab out of your pantry. Be like okay. Debtors taking care of overall. I would say this meal is like mostly just very salty like really packs a punch with the soy sauce flavor which is brought down like a little bit by the sugar in this way sauce. I think for the most part this meal feels really mushy like i know. I'm not selling it but like the canned green beans and like the white sliced. Potatoes are like you know you really like sink. Your teeth into it in the hot dogs like give a little bit of chewing us. But i think like the real texture comes from just adding it to the rice which is obviously a little bit more interesting texture. Wise to eat. This dish has been in lawrence family for quite a while. I never remember life without the weiner dinner. We've been eating the weiner dinner at the family household. For as long as i can remember was like. I can't think of anything for dinner tonight. Kind of thing like a emergency break. Glass make weiner dinner. You know like it doesn't take much planning or like you don't need a lot of ingredients. The other thing that was fun about it is like you know. Obviously you could call it the hotdog dinner but everyone in my family just thought it was so funny to call it the weiner dinner you know and so it was always a big joke when it was made in the house and so i remember that more so than even the food itself was just like. Oh we're having the weiner dinner you know like ha so funny. Lauren told me about the origins of this dish. And how it became a gawky family signature so my grandmother invented it back when she was raising three kids. Working money was super scarce. And i think she kind of invented it out of necessity and my understanding. Is that my aunt and uncle both hated and have never since made it but my dad is such a hungry guy and he always loved to cook and this is like she's always made it's always been in the rotation and it's a tradition is proud to continue. I think that growing up. I didn't really realize that my dad is like an actual excellent chef and like had no appreciation for the food that was cooked in my house and it wasn't until i left home and graduated from college and kind of had to like figure out how to cook on my own kind of realized that i learned that cooking for him as a way to express love for people. You know it's like you're literally nourishing the people in your family and your life and so. I think i realized the amount of love that went into this dish and now it just feels like really nostalgic. When i make it you know and it feels like gets in tribute to like my dad and like the fact that he really loves cooking and like this is like the one thing i can make because everything else is like way out of my skill range so it feels like that one way i can be like. Oh look i'm like carrying on this one little tradition. I had to ask though why these specific ingredients. Where did her grandmother. Get the idea to cook hotdogs this way so i talked to my dad about this last night and he like the answer. My dad came up with was like while your grandfather really loved hotdogs and there were really cheap and what. I am guessing with the soya. Sauce is that it's like really just kind of a poor substitute for teriyaki sauce. Like it's a to ingredient teriyaki sauce. You know they grew up in bellingham washington. He was like there. Were no asian families in town. So i don't imagine that like she was swapping recipes with a lot of folks at least at that point in her life and my grandfather had just gone back to school to become a vet for like farm animals and so it landed them in a lot of really rural places and so like i of his profession. They kind of always landed in these. Like super non. Asian pockets of america and they ultimately settled in indiana. Where like it was only white people being a japanese american family in the mid century living in those communities that definitely shapes the kind of food aid like the nineteen fifties was like a time of like we have processed foods and like you know. I think every family is just figuring out how they shoehorn that until like their own cuisine and how they use those processed foods to make their lives easier and that classic american cuisine became part of what lauren considers her. Comfort food okay. So i think that my favorite comfort foods have to do with anything that involves like a warm carb whether that's like turkey. Dinner thanksgiving dinner type thing or like just like a pot of noodles mac and cheese like all of those things scream comfort food to me that are like anything with butter on it but there was one car that lauren was particularly fond of a bowl of plain white rice with salt on it. Yeah i think that that was like my very first comfort food. You know my dad told stories of like family members who ate rice for three meals a day and i was ho- envious once a week at our house. I have a kind of embarrassing memory slush story so when i was in fifth grade my uncle relocated to japan for work. He worked for nike. And my dad. And i went to visit. I was in fifth grade. I thought fish was really gross. I thought it was creepy. So i ate for an entire week pretty much. Nothing but plain white rice. I'm in like japan. Which like most people travel to specifically to eat really well and really good seafood and like the only thing i ate was white rice the whole time. So that's a very like tail between my legs memory. I obviously would go back and do it totally differently. Now as we kept talking. Lauren shared about how her family's history is reflected in the foods. They did or didn't eat when i think about the legacy that my family has led in this country like my family was here for world war two. And while they didn't get sent to the camps they certainly were a part of this like whole anti-japanese sentiment in america the time and so what i always think about when i think about my family is like our history in this country is marked by trying to fit in in striving to be americans. I think that there was a certain degree of not really embracing your home cuisine. Like my grandparents in theory grew up in japanese speaking households and neither of them spoke at towards the end of their life. Like i think america's a really powerful force and especially during world war two. I think it's they. Were doing what they could to kind of survive. And so i kind of think that food is a way that we mark our history and like when i look at the food that my family eats. I don't think it's unintentional. You know. I think it was like a practice attempt to fit in in america and so when i see like cut up hotdogs on rice. It's like oh that that actually makes a lot of sense as like a family who was trying to figure things out in the us and like who were living in rural communities with a lot of white folks and like wanting to fit in and wanting to not make waves and it's really funny to think about now. Because like i grew up in an era where i feel like sushi was coming online to the masses and people would ask me all the time like. Oh you must eat sushi all the time at home and i was like oh my god no who first of all. That's a lot of work and also that fish is very expensive and like also. That's just not like a thing that my family eats because we eat like lasagna and casseroles. Because like i'm a product of indiana. I also think that like our history as like a globe is not so cut and dry foods all across the world are marked by their histories. I'm not gonna pretend like the weiner dinner is a big part of that grant history of the world's but like i think that's like the point of cuisine is it evolves and like comes out of necessity and out of trauma at times that experience of adapting your cuisine to your surroundings isn't unique when lorne posted about it. She was met with a lot of shared experiences and other non traditional food combinations. When i tweeted this a bunch of other asian folks that i know replied with their own versions of this comfort food and like my philippino friend. Melissa said we had the same thing except none of the vegetables like we just did onions hotdogs and soya sauce over rice someone. I know said that their family version is cut up. Bits of spam mixed with cream of mushroom over rice. It's so funny because when they described. There's i'm like. Oh that doesn't sound good but like i think like inherently comfort food is comfort food because you grew up with it and even something as specific as using cream of mushroom and even american food isn't an isolated thing. One of the recipes across the cookbook is a recipe for cantonese. eat pie. The number of people would mention that this is sort of a comfort dish for them. You would have a pilot's me that you into shallow dish that you can seem you make a then patty and then you can put stuff on top of it and so one of the things. I was really interested in is. What do people put on top or in their tie. It can be faulted eggs. It can be yourself as fish water fest. Nuts ginger pickled vegetables on and so forth. but we've also heard anecdotes people talking about putting campbell's cream of mushroom soup on top of their meat pie here. You integration A very basic consensual comfort food from canto households with campbell mushrooms. So just thinking about putting those two together that the product of you know china's america that was a recipe related to me by kelly. Fong my name. is kelly fong. I am a lecture in. Asia market studies at ucla. I self identify as fifth generation. Chinese american as well as a historical archaeologist and asian-americans heavy scott you might remember her from our third episode about the sacramento delta. If not well to that episode up right after this one back. When i was talking to her and her husband clem about that story she also mentioned. She was working on a cookbook project. I've been collecting community cookbooks from agen merican organisation. We have probably over. Fifty community cookbooks about half of with our chinese american organizations and the rest are mixture of companies american organizations or multi ethnic irish organizations and since we're talking about comfort foods. I circled back to her to learn more about them. So community cookbooks. More broadly are cookbooks. That are put together by civic organizations like churches or community groups. They are listening recipes from their membership. They compile them. They put them in a book. The older cookbooks were bound and then they would sell them as fundraisers zone. Some of these fundraisers are for summer youth program or for celebrating like a mile anniversary for the organization to base funds for repairs to buy properties on it though in researching for the story. I got a copy of one. Hundred years of deduct us a japanese-american community cookbook from san fernando valley honganji buddhist temple in their recipes for things like banana bread. Robin cabbage salad and eighty. The recipes are sometimes named after local community. Members like major hayashi's chicken and auntie. Helen spinach tofu salad. Or even just moms dads and botch hons. But that's one. I bought recently from a local temple in southern california. When and where are the cookbooks. And kelly's collection coming from asian americans. This largely starts in the nineteen fifties and really expands in the nineteen sixties in the nineteen seventies. But as far as where the cookbooks coming from a lot of it's gonna represent where population are in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies and so the vast majority of them are coming from california and the west coast flow. We but we do have a handful of cookbooks that are from other cities across the united states. So there's a community cookbook from arizona. There's a community cookbook from chicago. And the organizations they reflect or also distinctly asian american in addition to asian american churches and temples there are other groups that reflect the evolving landscape of asian american. This time there are cookbooks. Coming out of the aca's so ties back into the simple ci- there's one coming out of la from the chinese women's club one. That is pretty. Major comes out of eight organization. Schools called square and circle club a chinese american women organization. When i mentioned that comes out of berkeley and i use that term asian-american. It's called the asian american lands on they published a book called the east meets the west and this is published between nineteen seventy five and nineteen seventy six. This is one of the only ones that we had particularly given the time period. That explicitly uses the term agent american. Which is a sign of these are mecca movement that is emerging late nineteen sixties till. His own collection started with a single cookbook that she actually had for a while. The i communicate with that. I really became familiar with was one that actually had been on my mom's bookshelf from when i was growing up but didn't ever think about it until an adult and it is a cookbook that comes out of a church in stockton and apparently the story goes is that my grandmother bought a copy of this cookbook for herself but each one of her daughters as well because my mom and her three sisters and so they all ended up with a copy of this book so that they could learn how to cook chinese food. I think i always knew it was there because whenever mom cooked banana bread it would be a recipe from that cookbook. And that was the only time we use a cookbook. And so maybe getting ready to cook the nanogram and told either me and my brother. Okay go get the yellow cookbook with recipes. But i don't think. I realize the importance of this cookbook until criminal. Were conducting an oral history interview with one of my great uncles on my dad's side of the family and during break columba's looking at his book shelves. And that's seen cookbook was on his book shelves and we were like wait. A minute okay. There's something there beyond being little artifacts of community fundraisers. They became part of the connective. Tissue of multigenerational asian american culture. And within these cookbooks. You can see the snapshots of food from decades ago across the cookbooks. You can see different trends that appear for instance delo recipe margiela desserts become trendy thing coffee as jello. Mix two cups boiling water. Condensed milk coffee and as again. Dissolve the gelatin in the remaining. Two some cookbooks that represents for increasing numbers of microwaves stays dishes. Microwave lemon curd combined. Lemon juice sugar butter and eggs in a larger microwave safe bowl microwave ingredients in one minute. Increments removed from oven and start to combine after lot of pork dishes. In those tiny reckon cookbooks sweet and sour ribs rinse and dry the ribs cutting them apart. Heat the oil in walk when it is very hot and the ribs in small batches and fry harkin cookbooks. There's a lot of cuba five minutes. Shore blueberry macci stir sugar and melted butter. Add milk and mix well stir in baking powder chico ago and vanilla fold in the blueberry pie filling creating along with those trends. The cookbooks reveal how even the names of these dishes are shaped by local cultures and contexts. In these cookbooks there are real nice cassidy name for their english names. And sometimes it's combination of the two. I do notice. For instance you see names for certain dishes that get used within american born generations to talk about a particular dish and so the example have in mind is doomed the or the steamed sticky rice dish that use the elevated. The dragon boat festival. I grew up with my paternal grandmother always calling jones a chinese tamales. Because it's wrapped up in the tv for banana leaf and it looks like a tamale right and you can actually see some of the recipes in the cookbook score the doing that. Actually calling it a tiny somali. I think you can think about the names of recipes that are coming by the mid twentieth century. The product of china's americanise right not just chinese recipes. That are in the united states. You can even see the impact of geopolitical history on the ingredients in these recipes. The united states sort of break off relationship with mainland china after nineteen forty-nine because of the people's republic of china and not impact trade and also mean that it impacts the ingredient that china's american communities have access to and so as traitors. Close the actress to imported chinese food ingredients and items like that have to come from hong kong rather than directly from china and so not every ingredient is going to be available in every chinese american community across the. Us people are creative and come up with different ways of finding petitions to create. They wanted to be in some of the cookbooks. We do see. Mentions of something. Like virginia ham. That gets us as a substitute for chinese ham. That people could not find. In the united states though substitutions also coincided with the rise of modern processed foods in american grocery stores getting back to the whole like meat pie with mushroom soup freight is thinking about the rise of canned goods and the rise of further foods thinking about the products of technology within food. We heard of people using things like for the ps inside their team at custard. Otherwise known as gone and kennedy's with this individual came from a chinese american family that also ran a grocery store. And so what happens. Is that if your product isn't moving fast enough and behind the souvenir to be eaten than it might find. Its way home and into your dinner right. No running corner stores running grocery stores dry common. I guess it is sort of thinking about chinese. Americans doing right as as occupation in this period for kelly. These cookbooks aren't just glimpses into food trends their way to better understand the chinese american communities and histories. She's studying their jobs homes families and lifestyles. How do we understand. Chinese american food culture beyond just looking at old restaurant menus. I think a lot of the focus on tiny americans in food has do with restaurants rather than what are those chefs cooking at home. And so i wanted to the cookbooks. As another way of glimpsing what people are maybe cooking in our home. I was already thinking about food from archaeological perspective. And really trying to interrogate more about you. Know if you're finding remnants of ceramics that helps food or that you were eating out of but you're missing the piece of what are you eating so you might have the full. That's on eating out of like okay. So what were the cooking. Finding those missing puzzle pieces that don't have preserved. An archaeological site was something kelly had relied on oral histories to get. She'd have to ask. What do you remember your parents cooking a lot or on your birthday when you got to pick what meal that your parents were gonna cook. What would you like what was able does. That was the only way. I'd really figure out what dishes were being created. Rather than just having a sense of what ingredients were represented archaeologically on a fight but once he started collecting referencing. These community cookbooks. Shed a whole new trove stories to fill in the gaps. I thought that the cookbooks might be a really interesting way of getting people's own recipes in their own voices for a list because they're contributing them and so sometimes the names of the people will be associated with them and sometimes these cookbooks include short stories or anecdotes that go with a recipe so it might be where they lend us recipe or something about when they prepare it and so it makes it another snapshot in sue the past especially since Number of people that might have put these books together or contribute to them or gone. I think coming from asian american studies where you're really interested in uncovering those stories about people like you want to know about what people are doing and thinking and what's important to them right and that goes beyond just. How do i replicate this recipe about. Why is recipe important so for everyone out there who complains that recipes always have these long origin stories and anecdotes attached. Maybe this will give you a new appreciation for them. Those intro paragraphs are windows into the people culture and context running the food which is just as important as the mechanical methods of making it and that context can give us a better big picture understanding of an evolving cuisine and as an culture. I think the cookbooks are also a really interesting way of thinking about the uniquely asian american creation rather than something that is only just chinese or japanese or american the blend of all of that depending on individual circumstances and experiences adopting to what is in the united states or being created an innovative about trying new dishes in trying new ingredients mixing techniques. I think people forget that food. It's fluid. It's not something sticks right and i think sometimes with recipes think it is just because we have that ingredients than amounts and whatnot but in the kitchen a lot times. You're substituting based on what you have in the kitchener. What needs to get cooked and whatnot are. Maybe you're particular That's being sought here or not healthy enough you improvise right and so i think you know food is sort of alive that way. It's constantly in flux and changing the way approached. it was really thinking about. It's not just the food was growing food. Who's preparing the food a lot of times people of color that you don't see your think about and a lot of times you know historically even americans have been in this position so we need to think about the and so that larger sort of approach to thinking about food really widens the scope to think about okay. Asian-american food is not. Just what is on that dish in front of you is also the click circumstances in which that food is need and that collective we that produces something that is uniquely american chinese soul food operation breeze from whole foods. Never seen you know shoe. My name airs domini a palace and my favorite For food is chinese chicken. Corn soup is my favorite comfort food. Because it just helps me when i'm sick. It gives me joy. And i love it a lot. I i'm laura santos. I grew up in the san fernando valley. And i'm filipino. I feel like. I have a bunch of things that are comfort. Foods and one of them is pundits saul with butter and sugar. It was just one of those things like quick snacks. That i remember from being five years old and thirteen years old and before i eventually moved out just throughout my it was one of those things that was so fast and easy to eat and just was so comforting like when the bread was warm and the like mix of the fats from the butter and sugar is just like the perfect stack for me growing up something that i always had in. My house. pundits all community cookbooks aren't limited to historic finds from the sixties and seventies. We now had to orange county california. Where people's food stories are being put into a new cookbook project eliminated recipes with this project using food medium to connect the younger generation with the older generation and having them learn stories about where they came from taking oral history and turning that into artwork also turning that whole process in to a cookbook where we would record those stories and those recipes at those workshop participants treated. That's christine fan. Name is christine ing tran and i am. I glad she hurts. And i'm vietnamese. American born and raised in roles. I gone and orange county california specifically and westminster california. I am current me digital marketing manager by day and I am also the managing director for bala. Vala is vietnamese arts and letters association. They have been here. As an arts organization since nineteen ninety one and base started as a group of verse john artists journalists makers that realize that there wasn't a space in the community for the arts you know represented the vietnamese arts and culture of the time since then bala has evolved a day and its mission is he connect enrich communities through these arts and culture and in two thousand nineteen. One of those programs was eliminated. Recipes eliminated recipes. Project is a specific project catered to the gallery beyond wall program of vala and what the gallery beyond walls program is. It's an exhibition that usually is in a public space or a very accessible place made in curated by a local youth or local artists coming together to work on these projects and learning or medium just to tell their own story and have a place for the community as to view it and as we heard earlier illuminated recipes used food as a focus for art and storytelling who got to participate. And what did they work on rear. Were able to bring in young adults from the ages of sixteen to twenty six to this program. We had twelve workshop participants that we're able to complete the whole program which were twelve weeks and we met a re sunday or at three hours. Not only just share our stories but also learn new skills and oral history writing photography or mixed media art maybe a third of the workshop participants or actually like born in vietnam. The here on a student is or have moved here and some others were just born here. I thought that most of the participants would come locally Orange county but we actually got a handful of workshop participants from los angeles county to stop driving a couple of hours every week just to get here or taking the train just to get to orange county to participate in this workshop and from the twelve participants i think at the exhibit we were able to produce sixty art pieces. Total and for the recipe book. Twenty six recipes were recorded and entered into the recipe book. But of course the point of the workshop wasn't just the final products it was the process and discussions. They had along the way we went into. This project would be idea of teaching. He's beginner fish. Are student these technical skills and like to come out with a cookbook rape but her family. I was actually really interested in like the emergent themes that came from this project. Because we weren't planning for it and we weren't expecting it. I asked christine to share some of those themes that came up a couple of themes emerged from the overall workshop when we were talking about like comfort as or like when we were talking about our first memory of food that had to do with food. Security i what is food security. And what does that have to do with sharing those food memories insecurity and the fence of the availability of food in relation to your income and your status. And how much food is around you where you live. And all of this actors tying into what food was available for you and how you survive off of that food day shared a lot of stories about being like instant noodles or eating like fried eggs and soy sauce and but may and finding like instant foods or like frozen food delicacy. Ami's hand since they would watch me walking. So when i was little yields were either spam and rice or egg and rice number or live in the grandma would have yet sausages or like noodles or something my hand sure how many of us drink ensure as a child i did not expect that as being but the fact of the matter was bought specifically were our workshop participants the majority of them had parents who were working many hours to make ends meet and as a result you know they had to learn how to feed them solve and though they either had to rely on fits stam's or Instant food like cereal or noodles or like many of them had to rely on food available through school so on hand like the food isn't a stall gic in that way because they had to grow up with it but on the other hand. It's like they didn't really have a choice either. Rate to eat hot warm meals because of the fact that people needed to be around to cook those meal so one of the participants drew a android sketched of nissan noodles with the pink bags specifically. She took the bag and cut it up and then actually hand-drawn Spam behind it as a testament to this converting instant feeds the grew up around christine told me another theme that came up revolved around trying to explore their family histories. The other team. That came up was a lot of the workshop participants and didn't have ways to discuss any other family history. They got here any of their stories with either their parents or other siblings specifically for the vietnamese american experience. And i don't want to be for everyone but typically our parents want to avoid the topic of the war like at every cost the either. Don't talk about it or they talk about a lot. So it's like one way. Or the other i think like you know. Many people don't want to talk about it because it's too painful or they're living like a life now though like all their kids need to do like us on being conclude successful. And there's no need to talk about quote sad thing you know on top of that like being lost in translation to rate the language barrier is not having as stronger enemy tom as their english tongue. Eighth think the for many of the younger you know one point. Five zero second generation yet m group. There's almost like a mesia about what happened. And like many of them don't even know like the context of the war and how it happened. Sort of prep them. For some of those conversations illuminated recipes started to re share some of that context. We started the workshop of first theories of the workshop was oral history and the first two weeks of the workshop was spent on like vietnamese history. Wanna want condensed into like a solid. Probably three to five hours and then having them go back to ask questions at home. But even beyond filling in those intergenerational histories these conversations gave opportunities for folks to explore the relationships with their families. I remember one of the workshop participant. We actually learn really really leader on that. Her older brother was incarcerated and all of food but she mostly talked about was in association to her brother but like when she wrote about it like just describing the dishes like she actually didn't mentioned the context at surface level of usage us read that recipe about their in writing but like the story and her memory was the first time she ever taste. That was with brother and like those are just some of the happier memories that she had in association with Her brother is really safe. Space to share those kinds of stories and really reflect on them and just connect with others knowing that we are all sharing similar experience. And that we're not alone in that experience in mentioned the stories were adapted into a bunch of art pieces and were included with recipes in the illuminated Cookbook the project director a wanted to give the workshop participants as much artistic freedom of expression as possible so i allowed them to choose like any dish they wanted. That meant something to them or that the other story to tell with an is actually interesting because like some participants didn't want to do like a traditional dish that everybody knows they actually like added their own fusion dish or something. That's not to me at all but like the story is inherently like vietnamese american. Some of the recipes reflected the conversations. They'd have with their families around the dish be questioning. Red recipe is actually a vietnamese to english pun. The dish is button. Hoyt hawaii is grist. Pork with the vermicelli noodles data in roll form but the vermicelli noodles selves unholy and translated into english. It become something along the lines of questioning. Red day would always ask their mom. Like mom is called questioning bread and that was how they wanted to express open. I was totally down with. Larry and other recipes were more expiration what they represented by example. There is a recipe for macho macron's and that particular workshop participant in high school. And i remember they were saying. They put these recipes in because their parents are always traditionalist when it comes to food and they only eat vietnamese food and like their dream in the world was to take their parents traveling and let them taste all the flavors from every place in the world and they would start by cooking at home and learning how to cook different dishes so that their mom could teach differently rivers and that's why like that particular recipe was in that book. I asked christine about the impact of illuminated recipes. Especially all the parts that we don't get to experience in the exhibition or at the program was really powerful. and unique. In the sense of when it comes to creating a space for healing and learning history and our intergenerational traumas you know i think like this was a very organic and holistic way of excavating the israeli deep shoes that we didn't have the words to describe or like the ability to me before and by doing the program. Many workshop participants were able to understand the context of their histories and their own experience and most importantly knowing that they weren't alone in their unique vietnamese american upbringing and life the act of sharing food and sharing stories over food food is such a huge part of the joy and it was fun. Because we all got to like just geek out on like dishes. We really loved and like we're comforted by you. Know us being able to tell her own stories is so important so powerful. It seems like many relationships between the generations were improved as a result of learning about these stories and this context of how their families here and being able to share. That over food was pretty cool and just like being able to even develop like deeper relationships with the people that you already love and then telling their stories are pretty powerful. The news all the god prize now. She's laid off Willing to the illuminated project page on our website. My name is denise and my favorite asian comfort food is my mom's oxtail soup She makes in the wintertime. And it is this delicious hardy tomato. -i carry potato e steward goodness where the oxtail melts off the bone and it so rich and it's so soul filling But the best part about it is the next day when she puts rahman in it. And i have oxtail soup rahman for breakfast. And it's the best meal ever a. I'm rachel reich and i'm filipino. American growing up in san jose california like many immigrant moms. I think my mom's love language is food literally. That's her first question. Anytime i'm visiting will. What do you want to eat Peanut is probably her signature dish. It's got me Usually like pork sometimes. Shrimp long beans japanese eggplant okra. Bitter melon But go on which is fish paste tomato and it's just so good because it has a lot fun keenness in bitterness in all these great textures. I also really like thorton the long which is eggplant in its charred. The skin is removed. And it's dipped in egg fried. I just visited my parents this weekend and my mom made both of those things. I my name. Is you and i identify as a burmese. Chinese american today. I want to talk about my personal favorite comfort food which is mahinda a dish that comes from me and more also known as burma and in english. I would describe it as a fish. Chowder with rice noodles hits has lot of ingredients. There's fish garlic. Lemon grass ginger onions. You can add some garnishes like salon. Tro fried split chickpeas called bej jaw. I don't know. I translated into english correctly but the dish has lot of texters and i would say the main flavor is fish. It reminds me of home and my mom's cooking. It's really something where i think. Anyone who identifies as burmese would say their moms version is the best and i personally don't know how to cook this myself. Which is why the idea of my mom making it for me is even more comforting. I would say if i smell it definitely evokes of home And eating with my family. And i live separately from my family now on the east coast so if i were to ever smell or taste it would definitely make me miss home. Of course not everyone gets to grow up in these. Big communities like little saigon and enjoy traditionally made foods the weird thing about like my mom's dow's. She tries to make them like the way they're supposed to be made now but my brother and sister nihal preferred the way. She need that. When we were in iowa can buoy. I am kim. Bui i worked at the arizona republic doing audience innovation. And they're right a need rudder. Were emerging leaders called the mills and i don affi- as vietnamese american. I grew up in iowa. I'm the only person in my family who actually was born in the united states. everybody else was born. Jan now growing up in iowa in the eighties and nineties was a really different experience from christine's neighborhood in little saigon. There was a vietnamese american community. But it was much smaller. Kim tells us exactly how much smaller i would probably say. We grew up with navy's four or five victims families across the demo area. We went to a protestant church even though we're catholic because the protestant church was vietnamese church. There was no vietnamese catholic church for some reason. I'm not sure but my parents wanted enough. Salvage some exposure to other kids so that was how they did by going to a protestant church that community also included the places. Her family would go shopping at the time. Moines only heard really one and then leader had to asian grocery stores but the one was on by a friend. All i remember is the woman who ran it name was backyard and she had this amazing perm and always warlike really bright lipstick and she was super sweet. If we went in we were good she would give us candy and it was usually appears from not roll. Real quick appears not role is a candy bar mostly found in the mid west. This california boy had to look that up to check anyway back to the store and with a tiny tiny little store but it was all my mama had so. That's where my mom bought her jewelry. Because that was winkles to do pretty much everything would go get videos there. We go get snacks fair. We do some grocery shopping. Would the first avenue irritating like all of the above with other that store back eating eventually ended up taking over half of her store and saying one of the first restaurant in des moines that i recall from growing up but when they were at home. Kim remembers her mom's cooking. My mom cooked ninety percent of the time and was well known for her egg rolls and her bow in the community as you mentioned earlier cooking in des moines met. She had to make some adjustments in her dishes. There's like secretions that go on. Because she didn't have access to proper ingredients or we can afford it. One of the to my mom never made bauer with sue in the middle. We can afford that much meat so we had it was always like ground pork and canned quail egg. Always a can't quit like we're not going to get fresh quail eggs and then like one. Maybe two prices of sausage. And that's what we grew up with it being and she's tried to like excite you know putting fresh quail eggs or putting chursoo and like no. No no no no no. That's not how it goes or there just wasn't certain like herbs that you would put in things like mint grew like crazy around our house growing up and some herbs grew fine but there was a lot of herb. She couldn't get access to my mom became a gardener by like necessity because she would need though or something like that and obviously the high vis the supermarket. I have it and the asian grocery stores were all the way across town and so she would often buy like a starter plant or like she and other moms would share little lake cuttings and they would all become amateur car here to try and grow these herbs at least in summer and to workout. Sometimes it was incredibly disastrous But i grew up missing herbs. They usually eat with far. And once i had a proper bowl of in orange county. Then i was like. What's this herb. It tastes so good model. We couldn't we couldn't get that in iowa. Kim and her siblings cut to participate in the cooking to. My mom made all three of us. Kids her hirsute chef from a very early age. I remember every child had a job in the egg. Roll factory and mine was taking the flour and water paste and feeling up the girl. That was my job that remained my job to this day on generally not allowed to do anything else in the process. And so i just. I feel the admiral so like i have a really good memories of helping my mom in the kitchen with little things like that but sometimes the cooking wasn't just shit by access to ingredients like kim mentioned. It was also shaped by access to money you know. Our parents went up and down in finances like my dad was raising three kids and how to say at home wife on like a middle manager salary in iowa and i remember. My mom went back to school to get her. Ged and then later her associates in culinary arts degree there watching me and she would make the. I didn't realize this tell. My mom told me later when we were really broke is when we would have nothing h- because it's super cheap to make it's eggs however much ground pork you can afford to put in there and being threatened which everybody has sitting around and i hated it. Growing up could be having a lot. It was one of the things. I ended up missing the most realize like almost all of my comfort foods have aches in. I love a things because eggs were the protein. My mom defaulted to. We were poor. When kim i moved away from home she grew to miss those simple foods with her mom substitutions the stuff that i miss the most from my mom is all of this stuff would complain about my mom making too much as a kid but now it's like the thing that makes me feel most at home then. When i moved away after college and i was separated from my family they had moved to california. And i took my first job in. Kansas city is to get super homesick for my family. Which i never thought i would be so i would put in like. I don't know some random bit in the city. That i stole from my mom because i would never want to admit to her that i missed like by night. Who wants to be. And i would listen sure and drive down to the one restaurant in kansas city. That was next to the asian grocery store and i would sit there and have a bowl of rice mediocre. And it wasn't even about the food i just wanted to hear other people speak villainy and then i would call my dad until eliminate stone. And then he will be very happy enough it how my health is and how worked gate agent got questions. And even as her life has brought her to many other places including california and now arizona. She still thinks fondly of those dishes. You know like the stuff that is comfort. Food is topic. Never niece organic restaurant. You know as much as they allow little saigon and everything like my favorite favorite thing are generally not something that anyone makes at a restaurant you know. They're like really simple suits. I think like all the focus is on you. Know from of like five or men fail or stuff. It's like a little more difficult for me and granted. My mom made all that stuff growing up. But that's not the stuff. I miss the most when i'm waiting for her when away from home and she's been making an effort to learn more for mom's recipes. My mom and i don't have the easiest relationship but in the most recent years i've been asking her to cook like really complex stuff but then doing which was my late husband's favorite which is a sticky rice and it had like the fatty pork in it and among being with lots of salt and pepper and most people. Just buy it or my mom's made it forever. That is one of the things. I asked her to show me how to cook. So i take step by step photos and then take notes on my ipad. Wallwork cooking because all of her recipes on full recipes. You know like. They're on an index card even though like something but then scratched out certainly great. There's bake off there's an ingredient list but there's no actual instruction after like apps kerr and then write it down 'cause otherwise i would just have the ingredients which is kind of helpful ten for food one thing to the learning how to make the comfort food. The same way means that you're writing down recipes and then you realize how important writing down those recipes that are in somebody's head. Are i think about the things that my mom had when we were poor and makes me wonder if i had kids or when i kids the things that i will end up making when we are poor or on money or something like that or you know when we're too busy if they will be the same things my mom made or if they will be different things like his different memories you know maybe they all have a family or else ruled party or something and i'll make those things. I wanted to know how. I don't want like my mom. Little tricks get lost to the sands of time. You know sue the and four that go past you that includes part one of our comfort food episode. Join us next week for part two. Here's a little preview. I don't think i would ever get tired of talking. I don't know why did she is unseen ryan pop up so strongly in southern california amongst korean-americans there. I wrote a piece for food beef about a year ago called. why be indian-americans love taco bell. When we have discussions across asian america. About how proper. It is to do something or how things should be season. I think that that's so boring. We'll see you next week. With more stories of comfort food and more stories of asian americana. Thanks to all my guests for joining us in today's episode lorne mckee is a senior producer at npr's education desk. You can follow her coverage there you can also find her on twitter at l. Mugabe that's l m. I g k i kelly. Fong is a lecturer to asian american studies at many places including class. Right now at ucla. If you get a chance to take a class with her please do christine. Tran is the managing director at vala or the vietnamese american arts and letters association. You can find more vala at vala dot org. That's v. a. l. a. dot org or on instagram and twitter at vala community and again will put a link to illuminated recipes on our website. You can learn more about kimberly on her website. Kimber dot com. that's k. I. m. b. u. i dot com or. You can follow her on twitter. At kimberly special thanks to tracy chicago. And the san fernando valley honganji. Buddhist temple forgetting me the deduct. You must community cookbook special. Thanks also to wendy netivot odd for reading a few recipes from that book you can find more work at voiceover dash win dot com and finally thanks to everyone who submitted their comfort food stories. You'll hear more of them next week. Two asian-american is hosted and produced by me with our opening song. Is we belong by magnetic north entire you featuring jima song of hearing with these credits is. We are the children by chris. Jima nobuko miyamoto charleston. The music you heard during this episode included grandma's by jason shoe featuring livia thai song from by david k. Apple applesauce. And before you get to old by peter sue you can visit our site at asian americana dot com find us on facebook and follow us on twitter at asian underscore americana. If you like the show please rate and review us on apple podcast if you really like to show. You can donate by becoming a monthly supporter on patriot. Just look the support button on her website. Asian americana is a proud. Founding member of potluck a collective podcast featuring voices and stories from the asian american community. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned for more stories asia. Americana car want to hear more check. There's other show from the potluck. Podcast collective kathy steve. That's going on tony. What do you know about k dramas They have something to do with the drama. That comes from k. Cup coffee pods. Because you know they're bad for the environment no- oh you mean korean dramas very grounded in reality though. That's actually the opposite of what happens. Anything about cato's yeah. I was just guessing. That's actually perfect. Remember will fill. Joanna decoration podcasts. They saw boys over flowers. Yes and people apparently listened to it in want another season but will and phil are still coming from the season. Got really okay. He did here. They tried to give themselves asia. Is that a k. drama thing. yeah pretty much. So are you guys now to help out. The new season of the korean drama podcast. So we're gonna be watching a k. Drama this time which one secret garden from twenty ten. It was a big hit. And if you're down. Check out the korean drama podcast at korean drama. Pot dot com. Am i gonna see you saana talibans.

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