20 Episode results for "Charles Thomas"
Supporting Leaders - Dr. Charles Thomas
"Recruit and retain great staff which is great cultural. Like how do you have difficult conversations. The supporting leaders type genus connects with leaders and the field to gain insights into these leadership challenges in beyond. Enjoy the show. What the next episode supporting leaders. We have a really special guest with us today. Dr charles thomas junior so his background in bio is pretty amazing. I'm just gonna read a small part of it but really truly needed. Check out his website at charles. Thomas junior dot com. Because there's far more about his bio that is fascinating interesting and you'll see more about some of the books he's written but with that said Dr charles thomas. Junior is a community leader. Educator he is also an amazon number one bestselling author multi-award-winning social entrepreneur multifaceted philanthropists and he is currently the ceo of clear cloud which is a flourishing claudia nearing company that offers specialized cloud services to intelligence community customers. He has committed to service and and philanthropic efforts and has varied experiences in public private and non profit sectors. He meets people where they are endeavors to fully understand them and approach community through creative storytelling education leadership development and interpersonal connections. Dr thomas earned his bachelor of science master. Science master business administration in doctoral degrees with distinction. He's from flint michigan and lives in northern virginia with his wife and children and again to go check out his website. Charles thomas junior dot com so C. t. thanks for being here this morning with us appreciate you appreciate you. Have male super excited to talk to you about leadership stuff and thing. What you're doing is pretty cool with the supporting leaders podcast and capturing all of the you know the collective wisdom of humanity to show other appreciate you having me. I appreciate that well. Let's dive in c. T. for those. Who don't know you. And i went through the doctoral program at creighton and so i think we figured out the other day we've known each other now close to a decade but It's enjoyable the watch your journey and from an outsider looking in you know there's certainly a lot of times where it seems like holy cow. Ct is crazy busy. You know you do so many things you've you've taught in the jails you've taught in colleges you are running a business. You have a family work out like crazy. I know that you have that. Achiever part of your gallup string finder But i feel like right now like the evolution is a little bit different for you. So tell me about your journey with the achiever and doing things and wearing at now. I think early think early in my career was very foundational right. Build the building skills necessary so that you so that house you built is being buildings being built on breaks that it can't be blown easily right so a lot of the stuff. Very intimately focused for me. Go get this degree. Go get this certification. Learn learn learn learn and you know from an outsider's perspective. It may have seen like a lot was going on but in reality i would leveraging the same skill set right. It was in multiple world but does the same exact skill set for me. So it's not like. I was doing something that was so cognitively different than what i knew to be true that it was called me any heartache. But now i think there is the i like to. I don't really like to put myself in boxes. But if i had to put myself in one. I i like to describe myself as like a creative obsessive right day. They are as an achiever. Like habitual mountain climber. Right as i'm climbing one mountain already looking to the to the knicks mountain and you know historically that has been okay to as i'm climbing mountain to constantly look at the next month because everything i was doing with this internally focused right and i'm talking even pre kids you know before now we have you know three great healthy tunes. I'm talking pre kids and even when they were little as i'm building that foundation i was still very internally focused to make sure i could be okay for an archetype other be people be okay so with that the the mount zion was climate. If i fell off those mountains i the only one i was going to get hurt right. It's like the you ever watched the movie free solo. Have you ever seen tv that movie so you. It's like this new climbing the world's tallest mountain without a rope right so before the mountain that was climate in my in my mind they were big. But now as you look at the stuff that i'm doing now they're not making comparison right so even back then off one of those mounds. It was okay. 'cause i would only hurt myself now. The difference is our as you have a company and you have people that work there and they they look at you to make sure they're they. They get paid and they have insurance and all these types of things the mountainous higher. So if i fall off a bunch of people fall off to rice so that that obsessive focus has to be there and there needs to be a certain level of mastery. So i think you know as you as you get better at your particular craft you have the homing in on that thing is that hey i may not be good at a bunch of other stuff over here. But i'm certainly good at this thing right. So as a creative obsessive. I like to make sure that. I can stay focused in watching and moving and skill these mega mountains without a real bright and have people with me and lift as you crime right. You live as you call them not climbing this mountain by myself right so i think my my energy now is different in the sense of you know you have people with you. You have people with you in the sense of like people are with you in general but you know what i mean as a leading company. There is an element of. Hey if you do not have permission to mess this up right. We don't at the people that own our leadership team. We do not have the permission to mess this up. We have to stay focused. We have to masters of our craft and we have to help other people become craftsmen and crafts women. So it's extremely important to to focus. And it's the same way when i write a book when i'm climbing that mountain. Lock and load for however long it takes right you you completely let go of the external distractions and you just like an assassin as locked in on his target. And you don't stop until the mission is accomplished. So that's the that's where the focus comes in. And i think it's you know it's kind of like this when you go off. Your life is teacher student teacher student teacher student. And you have to make sure you know where you are in that journey and then you pivot. You pivot according respond accordingly right. That's why that's where. I am right now that that reminds me a lot of so my dad. I interviewed for the first episode and he talked about when he first started his leadership journey. He was like the player like he had to learn how eat located teach himself and he had to learn and then at a certain point then he felt like now i can coach him row other people in some of what you're saying kind of reminds me of that and i'm curious to as you're leading other people. Is that a whole lot more pressure for you. Is that stressful or errors that good stress. Frito so no. I don't i don't think there's the only pressure you feel the pressure you put on yourself right so for me. I think there is a. It's not pressure it's a. It's an enlightened enhanced. Sense of being. I think right is not fear right. You have to go through and you lock in and say all right. We have this opportunity to to do something of significance which significance to me is remarkably different than success right so i think we have an opportunity to do something of significance so there is that there is an element of of the challenges are different right time to make a difference in the never been greater in my mind. That's that's academically economically the social less professionally. Personally everything that we have going on right now if you live in that moment the time to make a difference never been greater and i don't think that type of stuff lightly people in our company interested me to lead and to lead well constantly tell people it is imperative that we be leaders where the following right even though it may seem like a single. You're not you know maya angelo was quoted. As saying i. I come as one but i stand with come one but i stand with ten thousand right and i think we stand on the shoulders of giants so for me. It is not a not an element of any additional pressure. It's a component of. I stand on the shoulders of the best of those that came before me. So it's important that i am able to think well lead will speak. Well take on the challenge that come my way when the arrows can catch them in if they still hit me i can break them right there. There's a battle tested much more battle-tested now than i was in years past and i have a shoulder full of stripes to prove it right so there is a so no i don't i don't think it's it's not stress not to me. It is a it is an enhanced sense of understanding of where i am in time and space right would these opportunities look like what the challenges look like. How can i play a role for as long as i have the opportunity to play a role. What did it look like. It's more fun than anything not stress. There's some things. I don't like about it right like some of the administration that i hate doing but even that's part of the jury so it is a so it's a it's a it's a beautiful existence to me and it's not it's not scary. It's not. I'm not fear based i'm not nervous is a practice for years practicing for years. Now i'm just having an opportunity to get into the game to play so this is a new to me. You know. I'm not saying that it's easy but i know for certain that i have put in an effort to do the best that i can have the opportunity to do so you and the other thing too that i wonder i feel like i picked up on a little bit but it sounds like you're locked than on your purpose like you know the purpose so well that some of one they stress other people out. It isn't a stressor for you. Know i think. I know the purpose but i certainly can see Certainly have the vision to go. I wanna go right. So i mean maybe they. Maybe they're synonymous maybe. They're not but what the reason. I'm not afraid i think is because i'm moving in this thing by faith right like i'm not every time i can only see so far but it's like when you drive a car right if you're driving in foggy. Turn the headlights on. You can only see so far but you know that those lights as you keep driving is gonna keep illuminating more of the path right. And that's where i am right. I can only see so far. But i'm like it's cool. When i get to that point. I know that my headlights are going to illuminate pants for me to go. A little farther right. You know down the road. So and then when i get to that point if i don't know what to do just make the next best decision right. It's very simple. Construct me right if i don't know what to do. I will certainly make the next best decision. So as long as i keep walking in the right direction and keep making the next best decisions will be okay so right. That's why there isn't this. This pressure that stress this over this overwhelming sense of almost paralysis. That can stop you from doing what you're doing. Ryden moving and faith. Because like is that based on if faith in your own abilities and faith and knowing that you've been battle-tested and you know you know your own abilities or is moving in faith something bigger than that much bigger than that is much bigger than that to me. It's knowing that god has me covered as long as i do. My part into the rest right. You know when you think about the jesuit education and they talk about you know. Historically chris lowney wanted the books that we've already talked the jesuits teach s to boldly go right refuse. Men or women are kind of talent or quality right so for me. There is a component of you. Do your part in god will do the rest right like i'm not smart enough to figure out i can't outthinks failure right. It's all i can do. Walk in the direction. And legitimately know that when i get to the top of the stairs the next set of stairs will pop up and the light that illuminates that path of climbing the spiral staircase will keep illuminating as we move forward while i do. Have you know belief in my skills. We've talked about since before and all the you know or behavior books and that type of deal all right. Well i do have the confident confidence in myself to be able to get things done right. Because i am battle-tested. I do have the shoulder stripes right I'm comfortable there right. But i mean you can't win the game by yourself period just doesn't happen right without the right people with without a right team of folks behind you without a lot of people pushing you and challenging you. You can't you can't win so it is a faith in something in my case guy. That is much bigger than me. What i described him at the grand architect of the universe. So the universe conspires to help you right. And i'm very comfortable with that right. I think as you start walking down the path. The universe cindy's watchers. Some people described them as angels. These watchers that'll come and say hey he he had a couple in a couple obstacle that she hit a couple obstacles but they carried on right because we all know every obstacle yields to resolve and supreme tenacity. As long as you don't quit you will get through that right. Your your mind will quit way before your body does so as long as you just keep going as long as you keep going you can get to the finish line so for me. It's important to to continue to play the game. Because i'm more curious as to what happens if i don't quit right. I'm more curious. What happens if i don't quit right. It's like that mean where to do this hacking away underground trying to get to the diamonds and he stops right at the end but if he had kept hacking for ten more seconds it would have been a billion dollars worth of diamonds. You know that me yeah right so you never know you never know where you are in the process. So that's why. I'm more curious to see what happens if you don't quit and it's not about the like the outcome will be there but it's about the system that gets you there right. The basketball analogy. If i if i shoot a shop and it goes in off the backboard and didn't mean for that to happen. Yeah i mean you score you score two point. Which is it was an accident right. So we focus at our company and even when i'm doing things at the individual level. I focused on the system. Did i dude things correctly to reach the desired outcome right. If so all good right if if you have not okay. Well wasn't what i wanted but the system was there so we just have to get a little bit better at honing in on that system right so i can focus on the day to day is focused on the system. The outcome will be there so you talk about mountains right. I don't look at at the mouth and right now is my version of everest at this point in my life. I'm not climbing everest. I'm climbing one step at a time. And if our keep hitting these things. Were even without a road. If i keep going and going and going and going and going at some point you've reached the apex at some point. You reached the apex right you think about is analogous to go in and finishing our doctoral degrees. You don't start off. We're going to get this degree you. I'm gonna take this class then. I'm gonna write this paper that i'm gonna finish that class right. He said of papers finish this class right. These are the papers. Finish that class next thing. You know you finish however many credits necessary to achieve this degree right. And you've summited that particular mountain so i approach all of my all of my act. The same way yeah. There's so many different places that i like. I could come up with a million different questions. That i want to ask you about some what you just said but i want to take back back to the you talking about the obstacles just all these obstacles and just knowing your background. You know that you you grew up in flint michigan and there's so many obstacles that you've overcome that thinking about to like go into notre dame and becoming to walk on and you know like so many things you just continued to accomplish as you were talking about faith and as you're talking about obstacles like do you feel like that's just like instilled in you from such a really young age like that that mindset and how to just tackle these obstacles or was that something that you had to learn from failure and adjuster is completely different. I think i learned at home. Right i modeled. My parents amount of my parents behavior. I mean my mom and dad's work ethic was the second to none right. I mean yes. So if you question directly. I learned that by watching my parents lead by example so they would push push push and things will pop up they will be cool like the there may be these moments of frustration. But then it's like okay calm down settlement you still. You still know the target you've released arrow right. You've shopped this thing. Boom just have to keep walking behind it because at some point is gonna hit the target right. You have to know that. Now you may have to meander right as you're going through to get the stuff gumbo. No there's a. There's an element of tackling obstacles son. Right because because once you achieved off-duty like i can do when i ran my first spartan race. I you know i bought. I died thirty seven times during that race. My body was just crushed right but then actually did the first time. You're like okay. I can do this again all right then again then again then again then then the first time you ride fifty miles on a bike you like man about the pass out. Then you do it again. Then sixty miles seventy miles eighty miles ninety miles hundred miles right then you start to build the endurance this type of stuff and not only building endurance for conquering obstacles. You build the appetite org. You look for them because they're fun because it you know like the. I think the you know the robert frost poem of the road less traveled right took the road less traveled and it made all the difference right sometimes going that extra mile is so important because you literally the only one there literally the only one there like as i watched this stuff when you do. You do thirteen thirteen and a half mile. Thirty five thirty five obstacle course when you get to the in. It's only a few people that are less standard so many people quit along the way be because they don't have the mental fortitude physical fortitude right. They get hurt. Something happens wherever doesn't finish those races right so again. Your mind would tell you to quit. So i ninety percent of this stuff is mental. If you can push through the mental challenges of life man this is too hard. Your body will personally adapt. That's that's physical activity or if you're doing something mental if you can break through that and it's probably this much right this area. Here's where a lot of people quit if you can hop over that. Then you're everything starts to realign. Eli okay i'm cool. I can continue to move forward right so so for me. There's an element of you play until you can no longer play anymore like when we all have an expiration date right for me when whenever that happened nobody will ever be able to say. He didn't put an effort right. And i think that's the claim no more smarter than anybody else right. But i got an iv. Share this with you before what i lack in in intellect natural intellect. I make up for in work ethic right. I'm gonna put in effort if it takes me may take you one our to understand the concept. They may take me five but but at our five. We're both the same level right but the difference is i was able to push through those challenges where somebody else who is just smart may give up easier right. I don't care about being smart. I wanna be discerning wise knowledgeable understanding thoughtful focus. You know that type of deal and so no. I learned that from my parents in the sense of once you set the goal. Continue on until you decide to do something else right. So it's a pretty life is pretty simple to me to be perfectly honest. We have a lot of challenge by life in life in and of itself isn't hard to me right like we over. We overcomplicated a lot and part of what you're talking about. You like that little bit more. And i like you said earlier about like just staying curious was my in my weekly email. My staff i included site wakeman's quote where she said just curious one second longer. You know that. Like digging in the diamond mind if he just one second longer in. It reminds me of that. Like one one percent. And i don't know if you've read the slight edge but it reminds me that one jeff olson yeah Brett book absolutely. What kind of habits. And he helped over the years help. Hone in on your leadership. also i. you're an avid reader. talk about that. And are there any other topics that you've developed that that help push you forward habits No it's a. It's a lifestyle for me right so i don't know for the last. I guess twelve fifteen years. I read anywhere from fifty to seventy books a year right so because the world is your library right and i mean. You don't have to be an avid reader like every day you walk outside literally the world is your library. You can watch people and see how they doing. Sometimes i'll literally going. I mean not in pre kobe's our literally. Just go sit in the mall. And i would just watch people our watch their. They're interacting with each other. I would watch who was walking. Upright with the sense of purpose and confidence. I would watch who dejected and be like damn like what's going on in their life right now right watch how. They're interacting with kids and all that i was just because i think it's important to be a student of human nature right not not for anything else. I've never talked to these people not in the mall city. But you know. I you know and summertimes like two neighborhoods with multimillion dollar homes. I'll be like an f. I'm leaving workout digesting the super. I'll just get on my car and knock on doors. Because i'm curious. What do you do in your life to own a house. This big right. And what's remarkable is ninety percent of people actually talk to you once they realize you're not selling them anything you don't want anything actually talk to you. I'll get out of the car dress. Accordingly and i look i'm not selling today i'm curious. How do you have a thirteen thousand square foot house. Most of the time the the rich and famous they'll less bill laugh and be like. Oh man it's no big deal broke you have a maserati here you have a you have a lexus. And you have like gargoyles. This is the real story. You have gargoyles sitting in front of your house right so the guy starts laughing. He talked me for an hour on my ira cooman high five appreciate it. Never saw him again right but what he did for me was be just a shining light of this possible right. You see you. Don't instagram and all that type of stuff right. But you don't know how real that is. But when you see it in real life and you talk to the human who's who's skill that level of amount there the level of inspiration. There that i think is is cool for me right. So there's the habits are are reading. You know talking to people. And i used to be in a mindset of winner lose right because i'm highly competitive by almost to a fault well. I'm only competitive things. That i think i'm good. I'm not just. I'm not just overall competitive. I'm like i'm not a. I'm not an idiot but i. I'm very competitive at the things that i liked to do that. I think i'm good but a move beyond simply being competitive and wins and losses to now. Do you accept the challenge. Are you willing to accept the challenge of whatever that thing is and the answer for me. Now yeah if it makes sense to me like i said alive to what my goals are in the reason why we go back to focus. I was doing a bunch of stuff. Because i was trying to figure out what the goals were trying to figure out. Okay what am i good at. How can i be into some of the things. While i was using the same skill set didn't ultimately aligned to the bigger go everything i do now alliance at the bigger goal. And if it doesn't i don't do it right like i've gotten better even though i don't like saying no like i've gotten better it'd be like hey sorry i can't. I'm not saying no forever. But i can't do it right now. I'll get back to you. Once i once i knock a few of these things out but you know now it's a matter of are you willing to accept the challenge right. Whenever i write the next book it's not about winter losses. I've written a couple of bestselling books. Do i care if the next one is the bestseller not really right. It's an element of. I'm going to do the best i can. I will certainly leave a piece of me on those pages if it happens to be a best seller cool. If it doesn't i'll still be able look myself in the mirror. And say i did the best that i could possibly do during this particular activity. And that's enough for me right. I don't have to prove to people i'm smart. Right led the phone to be smart. I don't have to be that right. Like i said i want to be person of significant and value to people that that we meet right these conversations. You shouldn't walk away from this conversation feeling worse after having talked to me and if you do that means i did something wrong and i think about that in real life. Nobody who talks to me ever should walk away from any interaction with me feeling worse than they did when they started talking to me period right and if i feel like a person may feel that way. I'll back away from the conversation with. Somebody pisses me off about out of a conversation like we need to reconnect on this later right because i know my trigger points very much no my trigger points and if somebody pushes that button i'm like let me about me by out. I'm not the greatest at it. But i'm getting better at it. You know what i mean and that type of stuff is important to know who you are on the journey to to get things done so so yeah the habits to me like i said you know our reading and being a student of of the human condition. Yeah i love how you talked about to. Just you know earlier. How you're developing up some skills in its lobby now to be a place where you were kind of exploring some different things in your now in a place where everything's able to hone in your laser like focus and as an hearing you talk and i'm thinking about some of the other people that have been on the show there's definitely some themes that emerged from successful leaders and i know you know in one of your books to you talked to a lot of leaders doing a lot of really great things. What seems have you seen or identify kind of through that process or just observing that successful leader seem to have in. Common are yeah. That's that's been very cool part of of my writing journey and and the leadership during the things that really pop out to me are they're willing to be in the arena by themselves right. They're willing to stand on an island by themselves and do things that other people might not necessarily be willing to do to leading and and making decisions is not always popular right. Sometimes you know you see a whole bunch of people go in one direction and you have to be like no on that way right and sometimes you have to stand alone and then not only like the the very strong ones. They'll stand by themselves and they don't feel the need to have to justify why they made that decision. Somebody asked me to go to the movie. Theater knows a complete sentence. I don't have to say no comma are gonna say no period right now. Social decorum dictates that you offer some form of like. Nah i can't go because of whatever reason but most of the time because whatever is a bunch of nonsense. I don't want to go rather take a nap right. You know there's a there's this element of people try to be their representatives and try to be all things to all people and it's not true like my one of my best call my brother he's always said to me like you're hyper-competitive your hyper ambitious. You're hyperfocused your hyper achiever. And i used to downplay that type of stuff like you so very intense and i used to try to downplay it and it's like once you embrace it i am and so yeah and so on. I am a creative obsessive. And i am are the to me are the most to most powerful words especially in the english language. I m whatever right. And when you say i am i think you have to be very cautious of what you say post. I am right so when you say. I end this or i am that the world says oh that's at least is at the very least at least the things she is rights so we will now conspire to make that right. And if that thing post i m destructive you've pulled that into your world right at least that's my medicine orientation my thinking on that right so if i am a creative obsessive i am father i and my husband. I am leader. I speak in terms of what i want versus what i don't want right. You know as you as you go through as you go through that that journey. I think it's important to figure out when you think about the leadership. Teams number one. They're willing to stand alone. And i will say number one because these aren't any priority order. They're willing to stand alone. They think right. They think they have some for and then they. They're almost obsessive with some former personal development that physical mental emotional spiritual whatever right. And i think there's an element to the to the very good ones and when i say lead these famous people. They don't have to run mega conglomerations. Right i'm talking about is going to be a present and have owned companies. Don't have to do any of that right. They haven't figured honesty decency and courage right. Those are the things that you see for people who ended up doing well in life older. Well is right. Because i think oftentimes we we inadvertently confirm or inadvertently think that success equals monetary acquisition right. Successive isn't necessarily monetary condition. It can be depending on what your success also mean. You're walking down the street and you didn't fall into a powell right. It depends on what you want to do. So i think there's the so leaders to me have those habits of their the woman to stand alone. They're they're locked in personal development. They just want to get better right. They wanna believe they. They want to offer something of value to somebody other than themselves. They don't look at things in terms of success. Then look at it in terms of significance. When did i do here offer values to somebody other than me right right because the always me nothing really matters right in And i think if you get to the point of significance over success it makes it easier. And i have a bunch of teams. You know i think but those are the ones that as i'm talking extemporaneously and thinking through the stuff as we talk about it. Those are the ones that pop to me. I like quick. You know based on my interactions with other people. Yeah that's so inciteful and you know this whole conversation has been so inspiring as always is with you but in a little bit of time that we have left. I just wanted to open it up to you. Is there anything else with regards to leadership that would be great advice to share with people who are either currently in their leadership journey or thinking about becoming a leader that you think that they would benefit from. You're not. I'm not good at advice necessarily but i can share. You know my ball thinks. I don't really like advise because people will you said i should do. Yeah davies options right. You do what you want right. But i think for leaders aspiring leaders. Those who are trying to to play the game. I think it's three things right. You know you talk about shakespeare right. We'll go we'll go number one in how big it within the play. Hamlet polonius set tonight also be true right. I think it was excellent stage. You know act wednesday thirty to be exact polonius talking like to nine on self. Be true and i think that is very very important. Give these three thoughts on on this show to donald self be true because if you or your representative constantly you'll be tired. You can't be something that you're not for an extended period of time most of us when we meet somebody we offer representatives like you would have never three five years ago. You'd never seen me do an interview. In switzerland the cap it wouldn't have happened right. It wouldn't have happened right. Because i thought i needed to be this thing to people thought i needed to be in a three piece suit and a bow tie and perfectly groomed in all out but what i found is people where receiving me as well. Because it's like that's not my natural state light now. My suits are nice. Like don't don't try. My suit is serious business but it's not always necessarily watch game my time. These games there is. This is the but i didn't have to. I wasn't being always true to me now sued if i want to like today i happened to choose not to wear so. This is what i happen to be put on our conversation. But and i also wear this thing if we were doing this on a panel discussion and a university in the world doesn't matter and that's not because of the arrogance thing is like is. This is what i want to be on that particular day. That's what i'm gonna do. My clothes. don't have anything to do with what's inside of my brain and how we transmit that right. They don't now now matters how people perceive you so their time and place for how you engage. But before i thought it was for me to dress a certain way to talk a certain way to start off giving a lecture or a podcast quote to show people like ok does does race play in q. How you dress or people's of you and how you choose you know. Oh yeah oh yeah one hundred percent no doubt about it right so as a young black man. I have to think that that's an entirely different conversation. We'll have time rabbit hole today but but we can certainly talk about that in the future of what that looks like right so so i would come in and out so yes race plays a role but let's table that for another Supporting leadership conversation. Because i think that's a bigger deal right. 'cause i don't wanna i don't wanna gloss over that because that is extremely important for people who listen to your show. I don't want there to be any misinterpretation of of that thought process and what the impact looks like how it affects us how we affect other people right. Yes so i wanted to talk about that very singularly in the future. So if you'll have me if you had if so so yeah it's a diner and self be true right like as if you can be comfortable with yourself. The world will accept you as that particularly once they get past. Oh here she's not an idiot part then it'll be fine number number two is again. I'll go back to renaissance humanist right socrates and aristotle them the world they talk about four cardinal virtues right courage prudence temperance justice right and i mentioned integrity honesty integrity honesty decency virtue earlier with those four virtues. Courage prudence temperance justice are extremely important to me. Encouraged to me. And i agree with dr my angelo again to reference her when she says courage is the greatest of all the virtues. I think that's true. Because if you have courage you can have prude. Temperate justice integrity honesty decency. You can have all of those things but if you don't have courage everything will fall by the way the reason we can the reason we can climb the mountain about a row is because you have the courage knowing the that if you do fall you're not the god is going to keep you safe right. If you do make a mistake you can bounce back if you are thinking clearly on a particular day. You don't have to make the decision on that day. Do a later if you decide to stand along. You have the courage to do that and speak your truth to whomever needs to hear that at that particular moment in time so so yeah number one tonight on self meet you number to have had the cardinal virtues right that we talked about number three and a and this is is very very very important as well have fun because so many people take themselves too seriously. They go through life like all. I have to do this. And i played you know. I've played hemley that oxford and cambridge. And all this try to be smart and you know all this crazy no one cares. What all of us die right is going to be very few people that our funeral even very few few thousand kobe bryant passed away. One of my favorite humans in the world right. Twenty twenty thousand people feel the staple center. It's three hundred million people in the united states alone. Seven billion in the world right now. Koby only gets twenty. Koby only gets twenty dollars. What am i going to get so you might as well have fun and do what you wanna do. Because ultimately once you expire no one cares right you may offer value all you hear you may be valuable. Why you here. Which is certainly needs to have fun on the journey to say i did my best. I'm put in the best effort. I put in effort to be a decent human being and had fun right and fun doesn't always mean you're super smiley all the time at high fiving people. But it's fun in the sense of you're doing what you wanna do on any given time in any given day right of those would be the three pieces of council experience based learning that. I offered to people tonight on self be true. You know and prudence temperance justice integrity honesty decency virtues those virtues and they'd have fun if you can do those things you'll be all right. There's not say life will be you know all super fun and super exciting all the time that you won't have any life challenges but if you can if you can manage to these those themes right not necessarily in order but collectively if you can do those things collectively ultimately. I think you'll be all right right. And that's how that's how. I live my journey rights. I don't. I don't know how other people do it but it's doing decently decently from me at this point so we'll see what happens again. We'll be okay. What are the tasks that way to end with those those three not zip advice but you know words of wisdom from your as you know. It's always such a pleasure to talk to you. see and i. I just feel fortunate that our paths had crossed that. We've been able to maintain this friendship. Because i just learned so much from when i hope people listening were inspired by that too but Absolutely i'm gonna take you up on your offer to come back to that. Because i just you know it's not your job. Educate every white person on the planet. You know. I think we gotta take some of that ourselves but i also really appreciate engaging in dialogue with you about race because your experiences and perspective obviously so different reminded a white woman and it really does help shape how i know i need to lead and how i need to think about just things that are outside my own personal experiences so i'll be knocking on your door to come back around to that. Yeah no doubt. Because it's not about being right or wrong in those conversations about having the appropriate level of perspective and understanding right. And i think if people do those things the world would be a much better place too. Many people want to be right and wrong instead of understanding. Drive me bonkers right. So almost borderline on this mission to civilize right. But i i don't know if i want to take that battle on singularly these you know once one step at a time so we can definitely talk about that and i most certainly appreciate you having me on the show. Hope we you know hope. It was a value to whoever decides to let the whomever decides to listen to it. And they'll do it again. Let's do that thanks team. Thanks for listening to the supporting leaders. Podcast for more and supporting leaders go to www dot supporting leaders dot org carrio find links to the youtube versions of our interviews and links to the podcast. You'll also find articles on leadership to join in on the conversation. Find these supporting leaders group on facebook and find us on instagram at supporting leaders.
The Morning Briefing: Tuesday, May 4
"Hello i'm danny boyle with the briefing from the telegraph. It's tuesday may the fourth and bill and melinda gates divorcing but first uk holiday makers could be jetting off within weeks. Britain's are expected to be free to go to europe's top holiday destinations next month. As after brussels open the door to vaccinated travels from the of june this week. We're expecting prime minister. Boris johnson to sign off on a green list. That'll be the country's where britain's will be able to visit without having to quarantine when they get home of i. It's likely to be only a tiny handful of places but by the end of june. It's likely to be expanded and could include spain greece and fronts and wearing the fez editor. Charles thomas has our full reports on the traffic light. Travels system of course comes on a big week for politics. Like elections are taking place on thursday as well as a by-election in hartlepool where the tories aim to take the seats. We've got a rounding up the crucial battlegrounds where labour's red wolves pressure now. Bill and melinda gates one of the world's most powerful couples have announced their divorcing after twenty seven years. The microsoft founder posted a statement on twitter last night saying they could no longer grow together. They couple of worth an estimated one hundred and twenty seven billion dollars that famously charitable so they're split will send shockwaves and our. Us teams been looking at how it could end up being the most expensive divorce ever and the biden families being beset by tragedy over the years but loves seemed to move them. Closer together on biden is the only surviving son of us. President joe biden until talking to my colleague brandy golden. He spoke about his addictions and how his father never gave up. You can listen to the full interview in the latest episode of brian. He's mad world podcast to other bits. That might be of interest and interview with the actor who plays in buckles in. Line of duty not even. He's suspected being the body and tips to avoid overworking from home from the telegraph. You're up to date. Your next briefing comes from chris this evening.
"Celebrities born in the eighteen hundreds railways former place names general knowledge and sports films. These are the five rounds in today's episode so get ready for quiz beard number forty eight. Hello and welcome to quiz. Bid at twenty five question trivia quiz played over five rounds. There are twenty five questions but you can score a maximum of thirty points because everybody gets blackspot spot card which he can play of anyone on any one of the five rounds by nominating around for your black spot. You double points for every correct. Answer that you give on that round in that round only supplies please remember declare your black spot before the first question of your chosen round has been asked you can go to quiz bear dot com to print your own answer sheets and black spot cards. We can go to amazon to buy the quiz kit book which contains a bunch of answer sheets. The website can also tell you how to subscribe on different Podcast players and if you can do leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you listen if you want to help even more we can also click the button to donate a cup of coffee and to support the continuation of the podcast before we start. Here's a quick. Reminder stays rounds round one is celebrities born in the eighteen. Hundreds ran to israel railways around three is former placenames round foist general knowledge and ran five. Is sports films. So if you have your black spots of the ready. Let's make a start with today's questions. Round one is celebrities born in the eighteen. Hundreds number one which author born in eighteen twelve of showpieces known as sketches by boz number two bone tune italian father and french mother in london in eighteen ninety nine. What did so john barbie early do for a living number three which american sharpshooter born in eighteen sixty was a major attraction in buffalo. Bill's wild west show and could reputedly spit split. A playing card held edge on at a distance of thirty paces number four which bass baritone concert artist and actor famous for his rendition of old man. River from the nineteen thirty. Six musical showed was born in new jersey in eighteen. Ninety eight number five born in eighteen fifty four. The irish poet and playwright oliver wilde wrote about the execution of condemned prisoner. Charles charles thomas woodbridge in which of his post incarceration works round two is about railways number six with a length of nine thousand two hundred eighty nine kilometers from moscow to vladivostok. With is the longest railway line in the world number seven. There are seven train stations in the uk with numbers in their name. However only one has both an overground and underground line. What is it called number. Eight based on passenger use with hosts. The world's busiest train station. In which country could you spend over. Fifty three hours traveling. Almost three thousand kilometers on the train called the gone. That's g h am m. and number ten which european capitals train station features four sculptures of men carved from granite known as the lantern. carriers round. Three is former placenames number. Eleven which island country in the indian ocean was formerly known assailants. Twelve which landlocked african nation was formerly known as abyssinia number thirteen which russian city previously went by the names petrograd and leningrad number fourteen. What is the former name of the democratic republic of the congo number fifteen to what did the city of saigon officially changed. Its name on the first of may nineteen seventy five do round full is today's general knowledge round number sixteen which satirical comic and magazine features the characters biff vacant felix and is underpants and roger. Mellie the man on the telly number. Seventeen in the in the netflix's trauma the crown which royal is portrayed by josh o'connor number eighteen in which decade of the twentieth century was puff icon madonna born the mid nineteen according to j m. Barrie's peter pan which school had kept in hook been educated a twenty. How many square meters is one. Hectare round five is sports films number. Twenty one in the one thousand nine hundred ninety six film happy gilmore. The title character learns to play golf after previously participating in which of a sport number twenty two which boxer which boxer was portrayed by will smith in two thousand one biographical drama number twenty three which one thousand nine hundred one film star sylvester loan. Michael caine pelly. Bobby moore and ozzy dealers as allied prisoners of war. He playing exhibition match football against the german team. Number twenty four which sport is the focus of the films the color of money the hustler number twenty five which film of nine thousand nine hundred one is based on the true story of two british track athletes harold abrahams and eric liddell as they compete in the nineteen twenty four summer olympics in paris Oh case amount says for today's quiz for you. Round woman celebrities born in the eighteen hundreds number one the author that wrote sketches by balls and born in eighteen twelve with charles. Dickens number two Bulletin italian father and french mother sir. John bobby early was a conductor. Not a bus conductor classical orchestral conductor number three the american sharp shooter. Who's a major attraction in buffalo. Bill's wild west show with annie oakley before the bass-baritone concert artist and actor famous for old man river. In show bose was paul robeson and number five born in eighteen. Fifty four oscar wilde wrote about the execution of charles thomas woodbridge in the ballad of reading gaol round two is the railways round number six the longest railway line in the world running from moscow to flat. Vostok is the trans siberian railway number. Seven seven stations in the uk with numbers in their name but only one has an overground and underground line. That is seven sisters number. Eight based on passenger use. The city with the world busiest train station is tokyo. You could travel on the gun trained in australia number. Ten the european capital that has a train station featuring those sculptures of granite men known as lansing. Character carriers is helsinki round. Three was former placenames. Number eleven the island country known of formerly known as ceylon is sri lanka number twelve the landlocked african nation formerly known as abbess senior is number thirteen. The russian city that previously went by petrograd and leningrad saint petersburg number fourteen the former name of the democratic republic of the congo zaire. A number fifteen saigon officially changed. Its name in nine hundred. Seventy five to ho cheam in city round. Four was the general knowledge round number sixteen. The satirical comic that features differ bacon felix and his amazing underpants roger. The man on the. Telly is viz number. Seventeen in the netflix drama. The crown joshua connor place prince charles number eighteen madonna was born in the nineteen fifties in nineteen fifty eight to be exact number nineteen according to jam. Barrie's peter pan. Captain hook had been educated at eton college and number twenty. There are ten thousand square meters in one hectare. A hectare is square. One hundred meters by a hundred liters finally ran five. Was the sports films. Round number twenty one. in happy gilmore. The title character learns to play golf after previously participating in ice hockey number twenty two will smith portrayed muhammad ali in two thousand and one by graphical drama number twenty three the nine hundred one film starring sylvester stallone. Michael caine pele. Bobby moore nausea delays as allied prisoners. War was escaped to victory number. Twenty four the focus of the films. The color of money and the hustler is the game of pool. A number twenty five film. Nine thousand nine hundred one based on two british truck athletes harold abrahams and eric del competing in the nine hundred and twenty four olympics his chariots of fire. That's it for another quiz. Thank you so much for taking part in. please remember. get in touch. If you'd like to suggest around an old gladly tried to include it for next time. Thank you very much to dr helen williams for her suggestion and questions for the railways round. I'll be back soon with another five rounds so until then take care. I'm good vine.
The Katherine Knight Murder
"Look let's go ahead and when people say that God is back God bread it is back. We're taking questions about my upcoming album. I'm a musician now. Please subscribe to call Chelsea Peretti. The podcast you can call and now I've got to get back to playing piano Welcome to murder minute on today's episode the Katherine Night Murder. But I your true crime headlines. Nine members of a fundamentalist Mormon airman community were killed when their vehicles were ambushed as they drove through the Sahara desert in Mexico near the Arizona border the victims uh-huh three mothers and their children were driving toward Arizona. Through the state of Sonora Mexican officials said that they believed that the killers may have mistake stake in the family for members of a rival drug cartel the victims who were dual citizenships in the United States and Mexico. Were part of a community community of fundamentalist marlins who have lived in the region for more than a century settling in Mexico after the United States. Outlawed polygamy the three mothers and their children were traveling in a caravan through the sparsely populated desert when the attack occurred there. Cars were sprayed with with bullets and then set on fire killing the three mothers and six of their children including eight month old twins seven more children and were injured including a thirteen year old boy who walked for six hours through the desert to help find help for his injured siblings in a Houston man on trial for the murder of his wife admitted that he shot her but claims that he was sleepwalking. At the time sixty seven year. Old Raymond Lazarus is on trial for the twenty thirteen murder of his wife. Deborah on the day that she was killed Raymond Raymond Serene called his son and told him that he dreamed he shot his wife. When police arrived they found? Deborah Lazarus dead on her living room floor with six gunshot wounds. Raymond Lazzarini was arrested and later told police that he thought that he had been dreaming when he fired six shots into his wife of thirty five years. His attorneys are mounting asleep. Walking defense arguing that allows arena suffers from a medical condition and that the shooting was involuntary a lot. Serene son testified that his father had been under psychiatric care for more than a decade and that he had been prescribed psychotropic drugs which which he sometimes mixed with alcohol. Raymond Lazarus could face up to life in prison if convicted. Aw of Florida man is facing his second trial for twenty ten quadruple murder after his first trial ended in a hung jury forty one year old. Henry Suguira is charged with the murder of his girlfriend. twenty-seven-year-old Brandy Peter's her six year old twin daughters and a three year world son that the couple shared prosecutors plan to show that girl committed the murders to avoid paying twenty thousand dollars in back child. Support the defense believes that the attack was targeted and contend that Brandy Peters worked as a drug mule and had been skimming drugs from her loads another there man James Carlos Santos claims to have orchestrated the hit on Peter's Santos invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination at cigarettes spurs trial and did not testify. That trial ended with a jury deadlocked eight to four in favor of acquittal. Santos is expected to testified secure as second trial which is underway. Henry Segura faces the death penalty if convicted. So those are your true crime headlines up next the Katherine Night Murderer but first a quick break so have you thought about talking to someone but are unsure of where to start. It's time to get better help. Better help makes it easy to connect with a licensed professional counselor carrying professionals specializing in the issues. You WanNa talk about such. As depression stress. Anxiety relationships trauma anger family conflicts conflicts grief self esteem and more. Join better help and get help at your own time and your own pace Connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. You can schedule. Secure Video. And phone phone sessions or texture therapists worldwide and start communicating an under twenty four hours. Anything you share is confidential Joel. And if you're not happy with your counselor you can request a new one at any time. It's a truly affordable option and now murder minute listeners. Get ten percent off their first month with discount code murder minute. If you've been wanting to talk you can get started started. Now go to better help dot com slash murder minute simply fill out the questionnaire get matched with a counselor her. You'll love that's better help dot com slash murder minute ladies. If you've been looking for that perfect fit one level lift you up and one that will last ast look no further third love is here to support you sir. Love knows that finding the perfect bra isn't just about size. It's about shape and third love offers more than eighty bra sizes including their signature. half-cup sizes uses third love uses lightweight super thin memory. Foam Cups that mold to your shape. No more slipping straps straps no more itchy labels. No more awkward dressing room experiences. Skip the trip and find your perfect fit with with thirdlove's online fit finder quiz over. Fourteen million women have taken the quiz to date. It's fun and takes less than in a minute to complete third level. Help you identify your breast size and shape and find styles that fit your body. My style is the plunge and this is the best fitting Bra I had ever owned. And every customer has sixty days as to where it wash it and put it to the test. And if you don't love third love you can return it and third local wash it and donate donate your bra to in need returns and exchanges are free and easy and so far third love has donated over fifteen fifteen million dollars in bras. Third Love knows that. There's a perfect bra for everyone. So right now they're offering our listeners. Fifteen fifteen percent off your first order go to third love dot com slash minute and find your perfect fitting Bra. That's fifteen percent percent off your first purchase at third love DOT COM slash minute. Welcome back to murder minute today. The story of Catherine Night Aberdeen Australia. Yeah the small town. In the upper hunter region of New South Wales barely made headlines before February. Twenty ninth two thousand the day one of the most most grotesque murders in history took place inside a family home at the time of his death. John Charles Thomas Price a forty five five-year-old known as Pricey too close friends had been making good money as a local minor for nearly two decades. He was father to three children. Two of whom lived with him and his girlfriend of five years Catherine Night John grew up in Aberdeen where he was well liked. A new night had a reputation for violence even so he fell hard for the mother and grandmother who worked at a local meat-packing plant shortly after a flirtatious evening at a nightclub John on a night began dating not long after that she moved in with him as the honeymoon period began to diminish nights. Aggressive behaviors proved proved to be more than rumors at one point. She tried to coerce John into marrying her by stealing his money to purchase her own engagement ring when she didn't get her way. Nights behaviors escalated. She knew John had taken expired. First Aid kits out of the trash at his workplace so she took the video footage of the kits submitted them to his boss and reported him for stealing though he had an actually done anything wrong. This brought about the downfall of his seventeen year position a career. He had worked hard for and took pride in. He said enough is enough and kicked her out but like many abusive of relationships. The poll was strong. Maybe he feared what she might do if he didn't take her back or figured he could change her focusing on the Times Times. She wasn't abusive. Whatever the reasons within a few months they were back together arguing frequently but together wanted full control of his home and John wouldn't allow that at that point she started accusing John's children of molesting her kids? She confided in co workers that she wanted to kill John. It's not uncommon for someone to say things like I could just kill someone without actually meaning it. Maybe that's why no one seemed alarmed enough to report what she had said to authorities for a while John Thought he had a handle on nights violent violent spurts that he could work around them. Nights ex husband David Stratford. Colette said sometimes she just snaps like a biscuit if John could manage to prevent or minimize snaps perhaps the couple could manage but by nineteen ninety. Nine he was concerned enough to meet meet with her acts to talk about her erotic behavior. He was so scared he was almost shaking. David later said according to a Canadian children's Prince Rights Council report. He was really scared night even said to John in front of one of his friends. You'll never get me out of this house. I'll do you and I finally. John found the increasing threats. Serious enough to go to the police on February twenty-ninth two thousand and the day. That would come to haunt Australia during an intense argument night stabbed John. He tried to file a restraining order or apprehended violence order as it's called Australia. When police told him? The processing might take a few weeks. John told numerous people including co workers and neighbors burs that if he disappeared or didn't show up for work that she had probably killed him that evening John walkup defined night standing adding in his bedroom at first they had sex. Maybe it seemed like the sort of makeup romp. He'd grown accustomed to or something to cave in to in order to keep her rages at bay. Rumor did have it. That night was known to punish at least one asks for not fulfilling her sexual appetite soon after once John fell back to sleep. She attacked him with a knife. He ran from her fighting for his life and escape but it was too late and and he was already to injured later. An autopsy would show thirty seven stab wounds in John's body. The only blessing if there could even be he won in the scenario is John Wasn't likely conscious or alive during what happened next. Those details won't be revealed until the next stay and much of it would be hidden from the public for good given the grotesque nature when John failed to appear at his new job one of his colleagues phoned the police police. General Deputies Officer Scott Matthews received the call in the documentary crimes. That shook Australia. Matthew said he knew John to be a reliable reliable man. Someone who is usually first to arrive at work and last to go home so completely out of character for him to not show up without so much as a phone call. Matthew's drove to Johns home with then Sergeant Graham for longer who figured they'd find. John passed out or asleep but when they arrived arrived they spotted blood on the door through the window. They glimpsed what appeared to be a bunched up curtain hanging down in the archway and decided to break in entering the back door of the house they came upon that hanging material still unsure what it was when Matthews pushed it aside to walk doc through. He noticed a cold sensation all over his left arm. Looking down he saw it was covered in blood. Had He injured himself on the way in getting a clearer view. The truth set in along with a broader seem so horrific it would scar investigators. Here's the hanging material was the flesh of human intact. As though the insides had been scooped out the body appeared here to be that of a male and they quickly assumed right. They were remains of the late John. Charles Thomas Price up ahead on the ground set set a bloody torso with no head. They were stunned never having seen anything this brutal but they had to keep going peering into the living room they noticed noticed more remains with pistols and hand in case the killer remained in the home. The policeman stepped into the kitchen where they noticed a large covered pot on the stove and two plates food on the table. Something so normal and domestic looking amid this bloodbath of a crime scene it it was as though someone interrupted a thoughtfully planned meal to bludgeon poor. John they moved from room to room searching for anyone else who might be present dead or or alive of stairs. They heard snoring sounds coming from a bedroom inside. They found forty nine year old Catherine Mary Night John's on and off girlfriend in a deep sleep. They tried to wake her but she seemed to have taken a bunch of sleeping pills the call for an ambulance and continued to searched the home finding no one else with night in custody hospitalized and largely out of it due to the effects of the drugs she'd taken investigators. Investigators knew they wouldn't be interviewing her for a few days in the meantime. A forensics team analyzed the scene investigator. Peter Musi O oh arrived to the home expecting and finding it incredibly gruesome Ali though he observed a pleasant aroma not that of death or decay. Hey it smelled more like a stew of loved one might make blood spatters painted. The House gruesome signs of an intense and violent struggle. As John Tried to escape. The blood evidence showed that he nearly made it out alive though he likely would have died later anyway. spatters from the stab wounds continued. Can you all the way to the door blood on the floor revealed that John's head was in place when his skin was removed and drops of blood formed trail where night had carried his head into the kitchen and to the stove. The meat on the plates surrounded by vegetables came from Johns gluteus maximus muscles. His rear ends. It had been sliced into five slabs and baked like steaks. The oven thankfully the plate seemed untouched. No apparent bites had been taken and they seemed more like the killers trophies as for who they were intended for while that only added to the cruelty place cards beside the plates showed the names of two of John's children by the time. The LID on the pot on the stove top was lifted. Investigators were horrified but not surprised is by its contents inside floated the decapitated head of John Price. When it came time to question night five days after after the murder she claims she had no memory of the events or how John had died in a recorded interview? A detective told night he had reason to believe she. He may be the person responsible for John's death and asked if she could tell him anything about the events. I don't know anything. She replied the last thing I remember was going going out for tea with my daughters and the kids coming home. She also mentioned having watched TV initially night said she recalled having sex with John before they both fell asleep and so that in Nesia had blocked out the rest and while she did accept responsibility for his death. She wouldn't take any blame instead instead. She pointed the finger at John saying he had abused her just like her other partners had no one found her memory lapse claims credible given how much planning had gone into it all and she seemed to be alert enough to make decisions that murderous night bank records showed that she had withdrawn cash from an ATM. Tim between the stabbing and skinning after interviewing nights three ex-partners investigators were confident that she wasn't the perpetual victim. She she made herself out to be but the perpetrator all three men related horrible memories of domestic abuse. At her hand over time with night they grew grew to fear for their lives just after marrying one of the men. She reportedly stabbed him because he didn't have sex with her enough times the first night when he left her her she placed her baby on trucks. Peter Taylor who sat in court during nights trial and later wrote the book bloodstain about the case told told the Sydney Morning Herald. He couldn't fathom quote how on Earth this woman could have done that incredibly grotesque act to another human being. She had raised four kids. Owned her own. Home had a job on car. She didn't have horns growing out of her head. which you wanted? Because you don't want someone who looks normal. You want them to put a facemask on. Layla and others concluded that borderline personality disorder and intense childhood abuse. Fueled her crimes suggesting. The John's murder was a combination of a long deep cycle of abuse. Sandra Lee who wrote another book about the case beyond bad had another. Take that night's behaviors were all about arrogance power and revenge because night thought. John was ending the relationship. It wasn't enough to kill him she. She told the Herald she had to file his body sully his memory. She wanted to annihilate him. She was sending a message about who had power who had control troll and she was saying to his kids. This is your lasting memory of your father borderline personality disorder can be marked by inappropriate intense. It's anger so commonly it's been coined borderline rage. Research published in the Journal of Abnormal. Psychology showed a link between feeling rejected head and rage and people with EP. Could the sense that John was leaving her for good cause night so much anger that literally butchering the man and she supposedly loved made sense to her night exhibited other bpd symptoms to a pattern of unstable relationships impulsive and risky behaviors severe mood swings but any type of care likely would have been needed long ago for any hope of management or prevention night alleged that her parents took turns beating her and her siblings. A plank of wood hung in the family's kitchen as a reminder of potential punishment. She also said she was sexually abused by her brothers as a child school records show. She wasn't a good student and dropped out of school at age sixteen that she was essentially illiterate. Her only aspirations according to those who knew her was to work in the meatpacking business some some people believe she was psychopathic and her passion for that work went way too far that she honed her skills and delighted both in the work and in watching her colleagues butcher away for years before cruelly ending the life of John Price She was fascinated by violence at her trial which started around a year after the murder justice. O'keefe said she sat there appearing small looking straight ahead head and without emotion showing no reactions to evidence or witness statements and despite agreeing that she was responsible for John's death to investigators early on. She pled not guilty as evidence mounted against her she pivoted again. Chaining pleaded guilty concern that she would later file for an appeal claiming she hadn't been of sane mind when she pled guilty. O'keefe saw another psychiatrist opinion who concluded what others I had that night was saying and her behaviors were equally sinister and calculated seemingly in response night. Tried tried to act insane screaming and flailing her body about before everyone in court. The tantrum didn't convince anyone Katherine Knight became the First Woman in Australia to be sentenced to life in prison without any chance for parole John. Prices loved ones cheered appeared in response to the verdict and sentence. Nothing could bring the hardworking friend. Who loved it? Good beer a good laugh in a smoke back or make up for their loss especially for his children but in the end they at least felt legal justice was done. This has been murder minutes for true crime anytime. mm-hmm download the murder minute APP or follow us on Instagram at murder minutes for exclusive content and early access find the show on Himalayas.
Episode 134: Call Russ Ewing
"This episode contains descriptions of violence. Please use discretion. I can't begin to tell you how violent it was. This is former Chicago television reporter. Charles Thomas there was a detective commander named John. Burge and Jon Burge He was he and his group of rogue detectives were investigating crimes homicides in particular they would find a suspect and they would torture the suspect into confessing to the crime. They would do everything from attaching electrodes to genitals. I'm not making this up. These are some of the things that have been documented. That Jon Burge was doing and his detectives were doing to people in. Nineteen seventy a twenty two year old named John. Burge joined the police force in Chicago by the time. He was dismissed in nineteen ninety. Three he in some detectives under him at allegedly tortured more than one hundred people in the nineteen seventies eighties and early nineties. A friend of mine and I were doing a death Penalty case and as part of the motion. We produced a picture of the holding cell bench which was wooden at the time and the client had scratched out on a wooden oak bench. They're torturing me and that's why he gave a confession Mary. Jane classic is a Public Defender in Chicago. She's been an attorney since nineteen seventy-three. Were you seeing your clients who had been roughed up by the police absolutely absolutely I. It's time and it's a disgrace within the criminal justice system. It's been well documented the so called Burj Era Cetera. Like that We have pictures. We had everything. My office always filed multiple motions. Jon Burge and his detectives were known as the midnight crew or Burge's ass kickers federal prosecutors later alleged that the group tortured suspects by beating them suffocating. Them burning them and administering electric shocks. Jon Burge was white most of the suspects or black. A man named Shaheed mean who was incarcerated in an Illinois state. Prison leader testified. That burge held him for hours at police headquarters in Chicago in. Nineteen eighty-five pressuring him to confess. He said that Burge held a revolver against his head. Put one bullet in the cylinder spun it and then pulled the trigger. When it didn't fire burge pulled the trigger two more times. The man refused to confess in so burge pressed a plastic typewriter cover over his face until he became unconscious. Burge repeated the process two more times until the man did confess. Things had gotten so out of control that the Cook County Public Defender's office in Chicago route to the US Attorney General about this systematic torture of black male suspects in order to coerce them to make confessions they had badges and guns and they were very dangerous. There were people who spent twenty five thirty years in the penitentiary on charges that they confess to because they were being tortured and the torture all that much of the torture allegations led back to detective commander Jon Burge and his Group of detectives the full extent of John Burgess. Misconduct become public knowledge until later he was fired. In nineteen ninety-three the continued to collect a pension Cook County. Prosecutors conducted a lengthy investigation. But no one could be charged with torture. The statute of limitations had passed later. Birch was convicted on federal charges of obstruction of justice and perjury. He lied under oath denying that he tortured suspects in two thousand eleven. He was sentenced to four and a half years in prison in two thousand sixteen. This Chicago paid nearly five point. Five million dollars to fifty seven victims who've been tortured by Jon Burge and his so called midnight crew that was an addition to more than one hundred million dollars. The city of Chicago had already paid in reparations. Settlements in legal fees stemming from police abuse. Jon Burge died in Florida in two thousand eighteen back in the height of the Burj era in the Chicago. Police Department long before there were cell phone cameras. There was an African American TV news. Reporter named Brosse and Russ was doing his thing in the midst of all this and a lot of people forget that this is what was going on in the city in terms of the criminal justice system when Russ Ewing was going out and people were turning themselves. In to rush's ewing. He was right in the middle of all this. Grass Ewing showed the police and the people that someone was watching what was going on and filming as he put it. I just did the best I could with what I had. I'm phoebe judge this is criminal. He knew something was going on. Because why would these people so afraid of the police? Oh he knew that and he knew that the people were most afraid of being beaten up by the cops. That was the phrase if I turned myself into them. They will beat me up and he knew that that they would beat suspects up. It was well known that if you had that kind of dilemma the cops were looking for you whether you did it or not. And you went to Russ Russ would ensure that you would be turned in and that you wouldn't be beaten or tortured at the hands of the police. Russ Ewing and his cameraman would document your surrender. Put It on the evening news and that would create public proof that if you ended up with a broken arm leader. That arm was broken in police custody. What he did is he shine a light on it. Everybody talks about transparency. Those days it was shine a light on it. It's simple as this when you know. Someone's watching you are good public defender. Mary Jane Place. Authorities knew he was watching. Authorities knew that he would follow up. So you didn't have a lot of misconduct involved in it. You had the rules followed by the judges by the State's attorneys by the police. He made us all better. I do not think that there would be too many other reporters who would stick their necks out who would endanger themselves former. Abc Seven Chicago producer. Pat Arnold Russ went into some really dangerous situations sometimes one on one with a murderer with a gun in his hand so journalists. We don't do that. That's not part of the job description. So you know this is like of course I'll do this. This is somebody needs to do this and and he did it. Russ Ewing was born on December. Twenty Eighth Nineteen twenty three. He grew up on the south side of Chicago. He became an orphan when he was very young and he was raised by neighbors in one thousand. Nine hundred fifty six. He became one of the city's few black firefighters. Russ wants described getting to the scene of a house. Fire the woman who owned the House who is white. Said she wouldn't let him and other black firefighters put out the fire. The House burn down. The Civil Rights Act wouldn't pass for another eight years and resident in interview that White Firefighters Hummus behaved or quote. Alcoholics were sent to work with the black firefighters as punishment. There were segregated. Fire stations and black. Firefighters were rarely promoted to one of the things that shifted. His career was as a firefighter. He was privy to inside information about the way. Black firefighters were treated. Compared with white. Firefighters Russ started exposing the fire departments practices to a local black newspaper called the Chicago defender. At first he used fake names and then I think he just stepped out in you know Identified himself and as a result you then media outlets reached out to him he would look at certain situations and he would expose them because he just didn't think it was right. Roscoe's first job in TV in the mid sixties WMA Q. Channel Five. He was hired to deliver film but Russ also pitched stories and was eventually promoted to work on news copy by nineteen. Sixty-nine he'd been promoted again to on camera reporter. This was sixties and it was very important to have black reporters and camera people and photographers. Whatever to go into certain neighborhoods because they could go places where a white crew could not raw said that when he started there were very few black employees he recalled one reporter one window washer someone in the cafeteria and a security guard his big early stories covered abuses at the Chicago dogpound and discriminatory lending practices and then he started doing something different. Something nobody else was doing. I think the very first time just came by accident years rescuing speaking in nineteen ninety two interview with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. That was a mental patient who was holding A woman and two young children hostage for a long time. He was threatening. The police surrounded the house. They had been there for quite a while. They didn't want to try to rush the house because they thought he might kill of the innocent people but after waiting for a long time I I I asked the police. I said let me see if I can talk to a guy. Last leader said that the police told him. We'll go ahead and get your head shot off. We can't stop you and I got up near the door. He recognize me from television. He let me come in. We talked for about an hour and the only thing we talked about. I didn't talk about surrendering I. I just talked about using a philosophy that any kind of living is better than any kind of dying after we talked about it for a while. He put the gun down and we walked out on it. And it's been going on ever since in one thousand nine hundred seventy six. Two men named James Shelton and Sydney carver walked into a currency exchange office with guns and demanded money. They took two employees hostage. An escape from the currency exchange the broke into a nearby apartment and barricaded themselves inside wall. Hundreds of police officers surrounded the building according to a WMA Q. Channel Five cameraman. The men said they wouldn't come out because they didn't trust the police when the police asked who they did trust they said. Russ they'd seen him on TV. The police contacted. Russ the cameraman's said what finally swayed James Shelton and Sydney carver to surrender was Russia's guarantee that they wouldn't get shot when they asked how he could be sure Roy said because of they shoot you they'll have to shoot me. Another call came in just a week later. And after that it's noble over the years. Russ Ewing stood beside more than one hundred men and women as they surrendered to the Chicago police. Once the word got around that you were safe with. Russ you could tell him anything he could keep a secret. It was just like a no brainer. Sometimes suspects families would call him because they knew that he would deliver their loved one to the police station safely after talking with the person who wanted to surrender sometimes for hours. Russ would either drive them to the police station or scored them to a waiting police car. He often got in the police car and rode along to the station on. The suspects were afraid of being alone with the police. Would he always staying close to the suspect assumes leading them in absolute no he was? He held their arm. He usually locked arms with his suspects because they were his brothers. They were his people. They were his neighbors. They were his There were people that knew him. They trusted him. You Trust it immediately because you thought he was from the neighborhood in fact you knew he was from the neighborhood he was that kind of guy in one thousand nine hundred eighty to a man named Russell cat'll it was visiting his lawyer in downtown Chicago. He was waiting on a settlement payment from a bus accident. But it hadn't come yet. He was unemployed and frustrated and he pulled out a gun and took his lawyer hostage. The police were called Russell. Catlin asked for Russ Un. He reached out any touched his hand. And he said your name is Russell and my name is Russell. So we have something in common the Touching of the suspect the affirming that. You're not a pariah. You know when when somebody has done something egregious you know. There are afraid. They know that they will be perceived as you know maybe the scum of the earth but not by rescuing this is eye witness news. How do you do ladies and gentlemen? I'm Fahey Flynn. Here's what's happening. A twenty nine year old Chicago man is in custody tonight. He's described as a broken man. A victim of chronic unemployment separated from his wife and young son this morning in a loop office Russell Catholic pulled a gun and took attorney most job hostage. He said he wanted to talk. To Channel. Seven's RUSSULA deputy chief. Charles pep was in charge of police at the scene. He would not allow me to go the room until Russell. Cadillac agreed that he would put the weapon inside a desk drawer once inside the room. We talked about his effort to get a job. He said that he could have robbed someone to get money but he simply wanted a job. At one. Point cabinet appeared irrational and started to cry. We walked out of the building together. Said that he was sorry that he did not intend to hurt anyone. I promised that I would stay at his side. All the way and I have promised that police would not use handcuffs all the way to police headquarters. He kept repeating. All he wanted was the job and the settlement that he felt he had coming from the lawsuit. Thank you again. Rush rush rush showing a rare and remarkable human being as evidence again today during his sixteen years as a reporter here in Chicago. His hometown. Thirty one wanted. Murderers have volunteered themselves in the custody of Russia. We'll be right back. Support for criminal comes from squarespace squarespace. You can create a beautiful and functional website with just a few clicks squarespace offers free and secure hosting analytics. That help you grow in real time and more. I made my own advice. Website through squarespace. Phoebe judge me and it was so easy to set up and make it. Look just how I wanted to go to squarespace dot com slash criminal for free trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer code criminal to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain thanks to Ziprecruiter for their support. Hiring can be a challenge. As business owner Gretchen hubner discovered she needed to hire game artists for Education Tech Company. Kotal so she went to Ziprecruiter Dot com posted her job and found the right person in less than two weeks. Ziprecruiter's technology finds people with the right experience invites to apply to your job. It's no wonder forty-five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire and right now try ziprecruiter for free at Ziprecruiter DOT com slash criminal. That's ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash criminal. Did anyone ever criticize him for helping the police? I spoke to someone the other day like. Was he a rat or was he? You know that sort of you know are you talking about was the snitch? Was your criticized for that sort of thing. Yeah he wasn't helping. The police public defender Mary. This is what people don't understand. These people came to him. It wasn't like he went out to you and said Oh you know You know the police are looking for you. I had never had a case where my client didn't actually pick up the phone duty. Had to do to get a hold of him. I remember when I I did this for the rest as kind of angry with him because he was bringing their predominantly African Americans. They used to call him a bounty hunter this is. Abc Seven cameraman Ken Bedford. He worked with Russ for years going out with him to meet the people who called in to surrender. That's it you know. What are you doing Dr Black people because I think we need a person? That's just doing this to our people and that's how initially and then once I begin to understand what he was doing then I apologize. I went back and that's how we really got to be really close. Nobody else in Chicago could do this. Not as the newspapers. The radio stations of the other television stations Russ was russes world. He could do this. I guess we comprehended that what he was doing was dangerous but because he didn't seem to he he just didn't vibrate any fear he or any anxiety he just took it all in stride. We did as well PAT. Arnold says Russ once went into an abandoned building at the request of a murder suspect and that when he got inside the suspect said that before he turned himself in he just wanted to shoot his gun one more time and whenever Russ told this story he told the same way his head woodcock to the side needs it and I asked him. Do you have anybody in mind? And the guy shoots he starts. Ad Fires one bullet into the ceiling and Russ Being Russ he says. Oh man that looks like fun. Do you mind if I try it. And so he gets a guy to hand him the gun and then he shoots up in the ceiling until all of the bullets are gone now he he had a way with people. You know he disarmed this guy and made himself safe one time. Even arrest was a pilot and he took his own airplane to someplace and he picked up a guy and brought him back. Russ's cameraman Ken Bedford. So he was a free to the back. She left the state and everything and wrestling cut. This Guy Russ flu zone air clean and brought the guy back assured it. Russ Ewing had guaranteed the safety of more than forty accused criminals during his career. But Gregory Hill is one of the few. He literally flew into police. Custody the call from hail coming from out of state three days ago ewing making the hundred mile flight this morning stopping only to tell police what he was up to. The police have been searching for Gregory Hill for days. He told rescuing he was afraid of being shot. Here's a recording of the two of them. Talking in one thousand nine hundred four Russ Ewing's speaks. I know that you've done some things wrong. You have committed some crimes. You have committed some robberies and you're willing to pay for that right. I'm willing to stand up and face with what I have done and get this behind me. Rust never disclosed where he picked up Gregory Hill. He later said in an interview that he didn't want anyone to be charged with harboring a fugitive. It wasn't the only time used his airplane. A woman who had been evading arrest for five years wanted in connection with two murders called us and said she was ready to surrender if he could help her see her children. One More Time Russ agreed. He flew her to Alabama. He later told Ebony magazine. I'm sitting there realizing that I've taken this. Fugitive across not one but four state lines. The woman saw her children and then returned to Chicago and turned herself in according to defender Mary. Jane Place Russky people the dignity of a righteous surrender bring in somebody did the worst crime imaginable and still respect the humanness of that person and still in fact expect the system to treat that person as it did in its compact with its citizens by nineteen ninety two when more than one hundred people had surrendered standing by rescuing he was featured on. Abc's person of the week. We're very proud of you rush. How does it feel be person of the week who I am proud of that but I must say that I'm not proud of seeing young men go to jail not proud of seeing the murderer and the ridiculous senseless killings that happened and continue to have and continue to happen. What HAP- to happen. Just about ten or fifteen minutes ago and it's sad it's unfortunate but those things happening I've always said in trying to convince them to to come in and stop doing. This are us one philosophy and that is that any kind of living is better than any kind of dying and they respond to that sometimes. But it's still so hard to see a young man eighteen and nineteen years old and most of them have been teenagers to see them. Walk through the door. When you know that they'll never come out again three years after that interview Russ Hewing retired. He left Chicago and moved to Rural Michigan. A town called pawpaw his colleagues. We spoke with for the story cameraman Ken. Bedford reporter Charles. Thomas and producer Pat. Arnold all visited him there. This past June rustling died. He was ninety five the entire city field in absence because reporters like Russ Ewing. Don't happen anymore. Russ was this older. Grey-haired receding hairline somewhat. Disheveled guy who wasn't about flash and DASH reporters today are wearing the company logo. Rust would have on an old trench coat. I think we all miss that kind of reporter. Because they were real and they did real stories. I certainly miss him. He represented an era. That's gone too. Criminalists created by Lawrence Spore and me. Nydia Wilson is our senior producer. Suzanne Roberson is our assistant producer audio mix by raw buyers special. Thanks to Michelle Harris and Jim Haferkamp. Julia Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of criminal. You can see them at. This is criminal. Dot Com or on facebook and twitter at criminal show criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina. Public Radio debut. Unc were proud member of Radio. Topa from PX. A collection of the best shows around radio. Topa has a brand new show. It's called over the road. Here's a preview. I want you to think about the time you took a long drive. You pull onto the freeway and merge into the center lane take a sip of coffee and set the cruise control then around the bend. You see the back of a tractor trailer as you come alongside the cab. You can just make out one arm slung over the steering wheel as you look for. Just a second you wonder. Where's that truck going? What's incited and who's that person behind the wheel? Well there's a slight chance. That person was me. I've driven a truck for almost forty years now. There was some help from the good folks at radio. Tokyo and overdrive magazine. I'm GONNA take you along for a ride. I'm long-haul Palm and this is over the road. Go listen I'm PHOEBE JUDGE AS CRIMINAL RADIO TO X.
Ep6 " Female Hannibal Lecter"
"Hi and welcome to crucify each week. We will dive into anything and everything. That is will creepy. These stories will be spine chiller something that will make you think. And maybe hide under the covers. Don't be surprised if some episodes make the little hair stand up and you feel somewhat. Someone might be watching you now with your nerves on edge and attention grabbed. I'm Brandon Smith. This is great by official diagnosis schizophrenic. Psychosis correct for the time being is for the time being. How do you mean my? My illness does not really fit him in any medical definition. Could you describe to us your your illness in your sentence? I suffer from whose nations I see feel and hear things. That are not real. Sorry it is that funny now. What kind of medication are you getting? Drugs antipsychotic drugs. Do they help? Yes so the medication makes the hallucinations. Go Away no but they helped me decide what is real and not real. The help me understand that. I don't have to pay and do everything they say when you say they What exactly do you do? You see demons even in here as we speak. Yes there behind you right behind me does say anything. Yes what does he say he tells me? Hurt you once you hit you once you. I'm tired now. I want you to go almost half of adults forty six point. Four percent will experience a mental illness during their lifetime. Five percents of adults eighteen or older will experience mental illness in any one year equivalent to about forty three point. Eight million people adults in the United States with any mental disorder in a one year period. Fourteen point four percent have one disorder. Five point eight percent have to disorders and six percent have three or more half of all mental disorders began by the age of fourteen and three quarters by the age of twenty four only forty one percent of those people who have mental disorder in the past year every seat professional healthcare or other services for Katherine night. She very well may fail in two six of a mental health disorder. She didn't just want her husband's hand in marriage but instead she wanted more human flesh. Now turn on your lights. Check the doors. As we uncover the gruesome tale of a woman. Who is known as the female? Hannibal Lector Kathrine nine was born and raised in an unconventional and dysfunctional family environment. Her Mother Barbara Up had been married to check in live with him a small town of Aberdeen in New South Wales Hunter Valley Barbara. Jack had four sons before Barbara began an adulterous relationship with Khin. Nyunt a friend and CO worker of her husband. The ruffin a night families were well-known in their conservative rural town in the affair caused a major scandal local backlash force Barbara and Ken to leave Aberdeen and moved to Maury. None of her four sons went with her. Two older boys continued to reside with their father while the two younger sons were sent to be raised by an aunt in Sydney or had four additional children with Ken night including a pair of twins born in one thousand nine hundred fifty five intend to fill. Catherine night was the younger of these twin daughters and nineteen fifty nine. When night was four. Jack roughened died and his two boys. Living with him moved in with Barbara and Ken nights father was an alcoholic who openly used violence in intimidation to rape his wife Barbara. Up to ten times a day. Barbara intern often told her daughters intimate details and how much she hated it and men part of an act. She did not want to perform more. We're told her to put up with it and stop complaining. Night claims that. She was frequently assaulted by several members. Were family which continued until she was eleven. Although they have minor doubts about the details psychiatrists accept or claim as her family members. Confirmed events did have more is great-grandmother an Australian from the Mauri area who've been married to an Irishman Barbara was a proud of this fact and like the think of her own family. Barbara was proud of this fact in like to think of her own family is aboriginal. This was a family kept secret and there was considerable racism in the area. The time and this was a source of tension for the children apart from twin sister. The only person who night was close to was her uncle Oscar night. Who was a champion Horseman? She was devastated when he committed suicide in. Nineteen sixty nine and continues to maintain this ghost visitor the family back to Aberdeen the same year. She attended must well Brooke. High School. Night became a longer and remembered by classmates as a bully who stood over small children. She assaulted at least one boy at school with a weapon and was once injured by a teacher was subsequently found to have acted in self defense by contrast when not enrage night was a model student and often earned awards and her good behavior upon leaving school at fifteen years of age without having ever learned to read or write. She gained employment as a cutter in a clothing factory. Twelve months later she leads us star what she referred to as her dream job. She was quickly promoted to bony and was giving her first. Set of butcher knives and home denies were hung over her bed so that she would always be handy if I needed them a habit. She continued into her incarceration everywhere. She lived knife. I met hardworking. Drinking Co worker David Stanford Kelly in nineteen seventy-three. Kelly has previously worked for the railroads. Of course harp. His best friend was killed in front of him in a shunting accident. He was later present when training school bus and campsie killing six children in nineteen sixty. He helped rescue the injured and remove the bodies. His heavy drinking has been attributed to these incidents. He was transferred to must. Well broke after causing several derailments due to falling asleep while shunting. His behavior deteriorated as eventually lost his job. But he's got to work at the nearby Aberdeen where he became close friends with nights brother after he began dating night. He also partnered her twin often if Kelly got into a fight night with Steph and back them up with her fists in Aberdeen. She was well known for physically threatened. Anyone who upset her nightmare. Kelly in nineteen seventy four at her request with a couple arriving at the service of our motorcycle with a very intoxicated. Kellet pilion as soon as they arrive nights. Mother Barbara gave Kelsen advice. The old said to me watch out. You Better Watch this one shall kill you. Stir up the wrong way or do the wrong thing. She'll kill you. Don't even think applying up on her. She'll kill you and that was her mother talking. She told me she's got something loose. She's got a screw loose somewhere on the wedding night night. Try to strangle Kellet. She later explained. It was because smell asleep after intimacy of three different times. The marriage proved particularly violent and one occasion. A heavily pregnant knight burned all of celts clothes and shoes before he came across the bag the head with the frying pan silly because he arrived home late from a darts competition as the reaching the finals in fear for his life. Kellet flit for collapsing in a neighbor's house was later treated for a severely fractured skull. Police one of the chargers nine but she changed behavior Kelly and talk the dropping the charges. John Charles Thomas Price. Born fourth of April nineteen fifty. Five was a father of three children when Knight had an affair with him liked by everyone who knew his own marriage has ended in one thousand nine hundred eight while two year old daughter had remained with his former wife. The two older children live with him. Price was well aware of nights violent reputation as she moved into his house in one thousand nine hundred five. His children liked her. He was making a Lotta money working in local mines and apart from the violent arguments at first life was a bunch of roses in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. Nine price fought over his refusal to marry her in retaliation. She videotaped items. He allegedly stolen from work and sent the tape to his boss. Although the items round date medical kits and that he had scavenged from the company rubbish tip price was fired from the job he had held for seventeen years as boss had no choice that same day. He kicked her out. She returned to her own home. Why News of what she'd done spread throughout the town. Few months later although he now refused to allow her to move in with the fighter became even more frequent and most of his friends would no longer have anything to do with them while they remain together in February two thousand a series of assaults with nights stabbing him in the chest finally fed up. He kicked her out of the House. On February twenty-ninth he stopped at the Scone Magistrate's Court on his way to work and took out a restraining order in attempt to keep her away from both himself in his children that afternoon price told his co workers that he did not come to work the next day either because night and murdered him despite their pleas that price not return home. He stated that he was afraid night would kill his children. He did not price arrived home to find that night. Although not there herself has sent the Children Away. For A SLEEPOVER. At a friend's he then spent the evening with his neighbors before returning home and going to bed at eleven. Pm earlier that day night had bought new black. Lingerie had videotaped Oliver Children while making comments which have since been interpreted as crew. Will she let it ride at prices while she is sleeping and sat washing television a few minutes before having shower she then woke price for intimate time after which he fell asleep at six? Am The next day. The neighbors became concerned. That prices core was still in the driveway and when he did not arrive at work. Employer sent a worker to see what was wrong. Both the neighboring. The worker tried knocking on price's bedroom window to wake them up but alerted police. After blood on the front door police arrived at eight. Am breaking down the back door. Police found prices body with night. Strong on the ground from taking large number appeals. She had stabbed price with a butcher's knife while he was sleeping. According to the blood evidence he awoke and try to turn the light on before tinted escape. While night chased him to the House you managed to open the front door to get outside but either stumbled back inside or was dragged back into the hallway where he finally died at Glendale later night went to Aberdeen. Withdrew one thousand dollar prizes account at an ATM. Prices Autopsy revealed that he had been stabbed thirty seven times and both the front and the back of his body with many of the wounds extending into vital organs. Several hours after price had died nights skinned him hung the skin from Meat Hook of the northern laundry room. She then cut off prices head and could parts of his body serving the meat with Baked Potato Pumpkin. Beet Root Zucchini cabbage yellow squash and gravy into settings at the dinner table along with notes beside each plate. Each having the name of one of price's children on it. She was preparing to serve his body parts to his children. The third meal was thrown on the back. Lawn for unknown reasons. Speculated that night had attempted to eat but could not. This has been put forward into support. Her claim that she has no mirror of the crime. Prices head was found in a pot with vegetables. Depart was still warm estimated between forty and fifty degrees Celsius which is one hundred four hundred twenty two degrees fair indicating that the cooking had taken place earlier that morning and if d soft drink bottle with legs crossed this was claimed in court to be an act of defilement demonstrating nights contempt for price. Night had left in handwritten note on top of the photograph price bloodstain covered with small pieces of flesh. It read time. Got You back Jonathan for raping my daughter you to back for Ross. For Little John Nights initial offer to plead guilty to manslaughter was reject she was arraigned on March. Second two thousand and one on the charge of murdering price to which she entered a plea of not guilty. Her trial was initially fixed for July. Twenty third thousand one but was adjourned due to her counsel's illness and was remixed for October. Fifteenth two thousand and one when the trial commended Justice Berry offer the sixty jury prospects the option of being excused but the nature of the photographic evidence which five accepted when the witness list was read out to the prospects? Evermore has dropped out over the jury was you know even took place night. Attorneys then spoke to a judge who adjourned to the following day the next morning night. Change pleaded guilty and the jury was dismissed. It was now made public. That justice O'Keefe have been advised the plea change the day before he adjourned the trial and then ordered a psychiatric assessment overnight determine if knight understood the consequences of a guilty plea was fit to make such a plea nights legal team a plan to defend night by claiming Amnesia. Although they did consider saying to psychiatrists concluded nights suffered from borderline personality disorder. No reason ever been given for the guilty plea and the spiting giving it nights do refuse to accept responsibility for actions. The sentence hearing nights lawyer requests. She accused of would hearing some of the facts. But the application refused to the lions took the stand and scribe the skinny decapitation night became hysterical and had to be sedate on November. Eighth Justice Akif pointed out the nature of the crime and nights lack of remorse required a severe penalty. He sends her to life in prison. If used to fix a non parole period in order that her papers be marked never to be released. First Time that this is ever been imposed on a woman in Australian history and June. Two thousand six nine appealed the life sentence claiming that a penalty of life in prison without possibility of parole was too severe for the killing justices. Peter McLean Michael Adams and Megan. Latham dismissed the appeal a new of New South Wales Court of Criminal. Appeal in September. Was just McLean. Riding his judgment. This was an appalling crime almost beyond contemplation in the civilized society. I hope you enjoyed this week. On Creep Affi- I hope I struck a nerve or gave you that. Feeling as if you're gladys daylight. Were you freaked out because it's nightfall? If you have a creepy story you want me to tell us a segment by then send me a DM on twitter story. You've heard of or experienced yourself and I'll read it aloud in my episodes. Now you can subscribe on Itunes Google. Play pod bean or wherever else you listen to podcasts. Offer free now. If you feel need to support my show you can do so my patriotic. Now if you're waiting for my next episode of drop feel free to check out my podcast host. It's called Luke News L. E. W. T. news for an upbeat kind is scary social podcast. But until next episode just remember to stay safe and watch out of the darkness.
The Tragic Origin Story of Morse Code
"The most serial killers don't make any effort to involve media or best Gators. They're very secretive. They don't want attention. They almost want their crimes to go unnoticed, but the idea of committing a crime, and then calling up the police and bragging about it. That's a whole 'nother level of terror. A man who wore a mediaeval style executioner's hood who has baffled the police and baffled the media. He seems to crave publicity. He sent letters and Ramsden newspapers. And the beliefs subject stated, I want to report a murder. No, a double murder. I did it. Here. We are fifty years to the first sodium killing in today's world of forensics old cases are being solved who doesn't wanna know. How it turns out? From the creators of Atlanta monster come season two. This is monster vizo yet killer. Listen as subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app. Knoll did you ever have to learn more scout? No. Guy was not a very spot. Let me make something. Yeah. Totally when I was in cub scouts. We went on a camping trip into the wilderness. We have to win how to communicate by tapping arteries, right? Bark Zach totalling, well, when I was back in boy scouts, one of the things that our troop leaders continually needles me about they're always like been you're good at Notts. You you can find a way around in the woods. But you you gotta learn more Skoda, buddy. It's just it's been too long. You know what? I mean, you're eleven now it's getting real gotta learn more scored. And so eventually learn more sewed passed the test with it, and then promptly forgot it. Yeah. When you turn eleven you get your first big boy bike, and you learn more s- code, right? Right. And that's for late bloomers not for early adopters like our super producer Casey peg REM give him a hand, folks. These episode is about Morse code. But more importantly, it's about the man himself. It's right. The Morrison the more cement not to be confused with some sort of Norseman. No, that's a hard end. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The man the myth the Morrison the Morse Mun Samuel more spin Morse. So Samuel Morse born April twenty-seventh seventeen ninety one today. He is remembered primarily for the code system that bears his name Morse code. And everyone knows what that is. Casey. Can we get just a little clip of how that would sound? Perfect. So like a series of short beeps and then long ones. Yeah. If you're really good at it. You can do is. I would do it more like dot dot dash dot dot dash, if you really good, and you work one of those little flipper paddle button things that you see in the old movies you'd be BBB. That's Morse code a telegraph. Yeah. Telegraph, which he's also credited with he didn't really invented exactly. But he improved upon previous design and made it much more useful in relaying information. More or less instantaneously. Yeah. That's the thing. So most inventions that we think of as the the huge game changing innovations. Most of those are not going to be made up by one person organized elation. You know, what I mean, multiple people exhibit parallel thinking, it's a phrase you enjoy or, you know, all idea standing on the shoulders of giants and all that and improving piggybacking on this come before and making a better making it suit the times. Yes. That's correct. He he eventually improved as he said on this existing telegraph technology famously sending the first telegraph message on may twenty fourth eighteen forty four but between his first day on the planet and that moment where he sends the first. Telegraph message a lot of stuff happened and not all of it was particularly pleasant. In fact, we could say that without great personal tragedy. Morse code may not have ever come to be in that first. Telegraph message. The more sent slow heavy what hath God wrought. Sinister to me. I like it. It's better than a Hoy as true, which was what famously Mr. burns sent on the first ever telephone call. Right. Right. So before Samuel Morse was known for his inventions way back when Morse was just a regular surname. This guy had a completely different job. Didn't he did? He went to Yale. And when he graduated was degree in Ben. Did you catch that? We'll he studied several different things. He's studied religious flossy mathematics and a question science, which is so interesting because he went into none of those fields upon graduating from Yale. He became a quite well regarded portrait painter and a piece that he did I was on aware of this at all his work is pretty breathtaking. He has one piece called dining Hercules that has kind of care of Osceola asked look like some of the. Talion masters, like real char screw lighting. This dude is heavily ripped massive pectoral 's and eight-pack kind of back in the throes of agony leaning up against some rocks. Hercules, holding up this kind of like sheet as though or like a wing, and it's really breathtaking epic stuff. And he received some note from that work and got some really pretty big name commissions as a painter. It's interesting because this was a masterpiece early in his life. It's typically called his early masterpiece. And just a side note, he did a sculpture of this. I n any base the painting on that sculpture. I didn't know that. That's pretty weird, right? I wasn't aware of that technique. But I assume it's a common thing because this guy was a big deal painter. He ended up attracting the attention of noodle artists of the time such as Washington Allston who wanted him to meet another artist named Benjamin west and along with Boris's father Allston. Arranged for Moore stew stay in England for three years to study painting and eventually by the end of eighteen eleven he was admitted to the Royal Academy. And this is where he began producing things like dying, Hercules, yes. And portrait's there in the national poetry gallery now, including a self portrait. Yeah. Believe he did one of James Madison as well. Yeah. And he was commissioned to paint a portrait of the Marquis de LA yet in Washington in February of eighteen twenty five we also did John Adams and James Monroe, and that was when unfortunately, tragically his wife Lucretia fell deathly ill. Yes. She fell ill just a month after giving birth to their third child, and she was located in New Haven, Connecticut. And he was in Washington in February of eighteen twenty five painting that portrait. So he dropped everything Ren ran back to New Haven as quickly as he could. Unfortunately, he was too late and is wife passed at the young age of twenty five on February seventh eighteen twenty five. And at this point the only way that he could receive notice of this would be through a written correspondence a letter through the post or word of mouth or maybe somebody sending corier you know, what I mean and his orbit of some kind of korva Quarrier. So his father sent him a letter about his wife's illness and more stood not receive this letter for several days, he wrote to his wife two days after she had died unaware that she had passed from the surf and he was talking. To her about the election of John Quincy Adams as president is meeting with Lafayette, and then by the time he returned to New Haven several days passed since her burial. What would it event from Washington DC to New Haven Connecticut in those days, which would have been by train how traveled I wonder. It's interesting question. So the distance if you're talking just a straight flight the distance would be about corporate flies, yet two hundred seventy three miles or four hundred and forty kilometers for the rest of the world. Right. So just for perspective. If someone we're traveling on a train today on Amtrak, for instance, how how long would that journey? I think only about five and a half hour or so which kind of threw me 'cause it I I when I read this. I misread thought that he was much further away because he it's been a lot of time overseas. But he was in fact, not that far but still just the same. He needed the information instantly rats is what led him to. To decide he needed to devise a way of doing this other people wouldn't have to experience what he experienced because he wrote a letter to his daughter after the passing of his wife that was just really heartbreaking to read. Right. He said, you cannot know the depth of the wound was inflicted when I was deprived of your dear mother, nor in how many ways that wound has been kept open and when he learned death. He vowed to find some way to deliver important messages in a timely manner. And he would spend the next two decades perfecting this system, he didn't give the art right away. But he continued kind of tinkering away at the side hustle at the same time. And it was in eighteen thirty two when he was on another voyage siege to Europe for from Europe rather back to United States that he met. A very important gentlemen of for the evolution of what would be his kind of crowning achievement. Yes. Charles thomas. Jackson, a Boston physician and scientists and Jackson says the Morse. Hey, check out this electromagnet, I made his header rudimentary electromagnet and Morse was inspired more slot. You know, what I what if I could send a message along a wire by opening and closing an electrical circuit, and then an electromagnet could record these blips on a piece of paper FIA, some sort of dare I say a code, and and I like your thinking. Yeah. Right. And this is one of those. I don't know if I it's like, a cocktail napkin idea, you know, he's he's still what if to himself, but when he goes. Back to the US when he disembarked from the trip. He moves forward with the idea, and he meets eight another guy who works with electromagnet Selo named Joseph Henry and Joseph Henry was also working with the idea of electromagnetism, which just quick and dirty. I'm no magnet scientists. But it is the idea of passing electric current into a magnet that turns on and off. It's magnetic abilities. Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a magnet Dr either. But I like that phrase. But yeah, that's that's the basic gist. This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you by navy Federal Credit. Union navy federal has a mission to put members I by making their financial goals the priority. It's true. You can receive a lifetime membership benefits to help you and your family accomplish those important life missions a credit card APR average. It's four percent lower than the industry's member. Only. S- -clusive rates discounts in perks access to over three hundred branches and thousands of fee free ATM's. This is open to active duty military, the DOD veterans and their family. Members navy federal is proud to serve over eight million members, including over a million veterans and their families. Visit navyfederal dot org. For more information again, that's navyfederal dot org. Insured by NCUA. At this time more still doesn't absolutely understand the nuts and bolts of how electromagnetism works, and it is Henry who explains the phenomenon of electromagnetism to Morse. And he also shows him the experimental electromagnet s- that he is built. And if you look at the electromagnet Morse later goes on to us in the experimental ones. Joseph Henry created their obviously the same design. He's well, you don't wanna call plagiarism. But he's riffing. Well, but he did sue. Yeah. Leave. Yeah, later, he did sue and said, hey, that's my idea. You can you can read some of this, by the way in a fantastic SUNY article called how Samuel Morse got his big idea by Joseph Stromberg, and the Smithsonian's written a couple of things about the story. Of Morse because I don't remember if we've mentioned this on area. Joseph Henry would later go on to become the first secretary of the Smithsonian Institution. So they have a little bit of stake in the game here, story wise. So before he gets sued Morse in Henry are pretty good buds. There have interesting conversations more goes back to his home, which is now a New York and in eighteen thirty seven he creates his first telegraph receiver. It's like I said is kind of that. That thing you see in some of these old the old pictures where it's like a button do do exactly on a spring, and that clip ins and closes the circuit to indicate. Yeah. When you do the taps. That's right. And that is pretty much what it looked like. And it got sort of streamlined over time. And you can actually see this first ever versions prototype today at the American history museum, and according to herald Wallace, the curator of the American history museum the most. Interesting aspect of this is that he took an artist canvas stretcher and made it into telegraph receiver canvas stretchers what used to to stretch the canvas Ryan ver- frame affixed. So he was kind of given props to his old arts roots and to Wallace this is symbolic of shift from painter too. Telegraph all in one piece one artifact somewhat poetic, right? So now, he fear radically has a way to record these signals Eddie s to figure out how to transmit them. Right. Yeah. He builds the receiver I, but he doesn't build away to transmit to as the infrastructure already in place for this. Because I mean, this is obviously pre telephone right? He had to work with some other people. And this is where his colleagues Leonard Gail and Alfred Vail come into play over the next few years after building this receiver Morse Stillman on emission works to improve this system any uses. Veils transmitter key and a code of dots and dashes this would be what becomes known as Morse code. And initially people said, okay, it could be potentially useful. But they had a hard time getting investors because of the infrastructure problem that you alluded to earlier, there's not a pre existing network of miles and miles and miles of wire you would have to build it to send that signal. And that's something that we see with lots of technology. One of the things people are talking about today with Thomas vehicles is how do you build a system in which they can exist? That's right. And so in the same way that we're doing small scale tests of times vehicles in private in these private companies and then gradually doing road tests of which have spectacularly failed. They did that very thing to demonstrate to potential investors that this technology did work using short runs of wires instead of the. That would have been strung miles and miles apart to make the technology actually useful across long distances. Yeah. That's a part of the story that I found in Deering they turned to Sam and they asked the US government for some scratch, some cheddar some sweet sweet telegraph money just to construct this network to lay these lines to make this wire stuff happened and the way that they convinced the government to fund it was through the sort of science fair approach. They did a live demonstration within the capital. They strove wires up just between different rooms, you know, what it makes me think of there's a part in the new red dead redemption game where the character you play the cowboy cameras name for some reason. Now, Arthur Morgan Arthur Morgan ring game if you haven't played he happens upon a an inventor who has these remote control boats that are like little battleship kind of things that can shoot missiles, and the whole idea is he. He wants to get investors, and he rounds up rich people that are like walking around the city that you're in to come and check out him using this wireless technology, and that was a time. It was the same time around the late eighteen hundreds or mid eighteen hundreds. And it was a time of that kind of ingenuity when people were so far ahead of what investors were willing to put their money toward you had to really wow them with some kind of display that they it was unequivocal a thing that was going to work and that was worth their money. And so they put some cash behind it. They gave Morse and co thirty thousand dollars to build a thirty eight mile wireline from Baltimore Maryland to Washington DC, and then on may first oh inflation calculate that off. Of course, whenever we can. We should I'm going to guess one million dollars. So let's say just for the sake of argh military, eighteen forties dollar. Dollars. And we said what was that thirty thousand? Okay. So thirty thousand dollars in the eighteen forties would be equal to what did you guess one million dollars? Do you really close? It's nine hundred and eighty thousand nine hundred eighty thousand four hundred eighty dollars awesome. What do I win a peace of mind? I'll take it. Okay. I need it. Yeah. IBM sure we have a t shirt somewhere a ridiculous history t shirt, I'm not going to be one of those guys in the band wearing their own. I would wear Casey. Oh, absolutely. That's different though, that that represents the good, Mr. Mr. Peckham, not our own Durant. Do we talk about this air pitched Casey on giddy a t shirt with Justice face on it? You were against that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to say no to that. One man. Casey on the sad. Sad case. Well, you know what? Hey, how about this listeners you guys speak up? Let us know demand. It demand Casey's phase on a T shirt. Then we'll see if he changes tune. Oh, we're going to be in deep trouble on that one. So. Yeah. So they strung up the line. Yeah. Probably along a similar route. Is there would have been train travel? Imagine that would make sense, right? That's a good point. It really gets national attention. When the device is used by the whig party to telegraph their presidential nomination from Baltimore Maryland to Washington DC much much faster than an ordinary corier could have traveled and people say, holy smokes building. This wires is real painting. Once you have the wire up. This is very useful. And makes me think of those barbed wire telephone networks because all you need is a conductive material is only special about it just has to travel from point eight point B, and it can transmit those messages, and it's so cool because I mean, it makes sense. But I just wasn't thinking about it in these terms in my head the invention of the telegraph was so far removed from the telephone. But. That's how technology works when you're building on the work of others Antonio MU Chee who was an Italian immigrant started developing what was referred to as the talking telegraph as early as eighteen forty nine. We see the concurrence or the confluence rather of these similar technologies. And then speaking of your parallel thinking, the Italian gentlemen, I just mentioned came up with his design completely independently of Alexander Graham Bell who is credited with the invention. So it just goes to show like it's totally thing that happens it's first to the pan office. Sometimes that's the way it works. Right. So more says finally achieved his mission and almost twenty years later nineteen twenty years later, he has not put his tragedy to rest, but he's made something positive in the world from this terrible personal catastrophe. And that brings us to the question that we have. To ask would Morse code or with the telegraph have existed without this minimum personal mission. The answer's yes, it just wouldn't be more to go. Oh. This is Ron burgundy telling you to listen to my podcast. Here's a little something to what your appetite right now. I'm a little terrified because I don't know what a podcast he's let's take some calls. Caller, number one. You're on with Ron burgundy what's on your mind? No callers. No. Because people aren't listening in real time. Check got it. If you are listening to this and have downloaded by mistake. Please turn it off. Now, turn it off. We have the crews here. Okay. All right. Okay. Taurus, your horoscope is come on pull you together. Defecate? It was reduced to my basic. Rumba gas available. Whatever putt guests found. We've been throwing around the freeze Morse code there. Dots dashes what exactly is more school? It changed a little over time. Right. It did change a bit of time. Because like you said, you know, he had this invention that he had worked with these other inventors to achieve including Alfred Vail who invented his contribution to the device, which was the telegraph key, which is literally that little button that we've been talking about the allows you to like enter in the code, but more some self was credited with coming up with a system of dots. As in a short beep. And then I'm along beep beep versus and with those it's sort of like a braille alphabet, but for years is that if your fingers, right, right? And he created this code with some inspiration from earlier attempts to communicate even just line of sight over distance through visual cues semaphore kind of stuff yet a controversy. Exists. If you look at international Morse code now, we still call it Morse code. You'll see that that fairly easy to gronk system. Dots and dashes sore Ditz in does as it's referred to in the parlance of Morris coterie. Yes. And I like the phrase coterie, however, many scholars will tell you that Morse code is misnamed in should actually be called Vail code to do to the contributions of Alfred Vail who collaborated with Samuel Morse so many scholars will say that veil as a collaborator was the generative force behind what we call Morse code. However, people who say that Morse invented it himself will point out the veil in public and private never claimed invented the goat, and he credited Samuel Morse with the creation of the code in different private correspondence. So if you wanna be a revolutionary. The academic. You can you can argue the veil side of it. It's just many people attribute Morse code two Samuel Morse including Alfred Vail. Yeah. And I actually had the misconception that Morse code was sort of the way you would enter in letters alpha numeric -ly like in a telephone where each however, many, you know, a is one dot B is to see three. But if you think about it in a whole sentence, if you keep things in one letter at a time like that, it would take ages to communicate any meaningful information. Right. So there's a whole nother system that makes a Moore's code officiant. And able to have high words per minute counts. Which is how Morse code transmissions are measured but have to say that even after eating into the stuff. Maybe I'm being a little dense here. I still don't fully get like how the code works because if an S as an SOS is three debts an open three does an S three Ditz. How how does that relate to other letters? Or is it a phrase based like maybe you can think of it in terms of units. So a debt or dot think of as one unit almost like music. Okay. And a dash is three units so dot and then a dashes d got it for lack of a better of vocal queue this space between parts of the same letter would be one unit. So there's one Ditz space between these Ditz in these and the space between separate letters is three units. So there's a three unit space between every letter that you send out. So when an SOS you would have that debt, and then a space for the span of three other Ditz? So people say, okay that stopped. That's an s and then was that why on telegrams? They say stop. Now, I'm sorry. What's the the space between words would be seven units? So they're they're counting. Not just the Ditz or the does. But they're counting the absence of those. And they they can figure out from the spaces between letters or words what a freeze is supposed to be ic-. And also looking this chart of the alphabet and the number system one through ten or one through nine zero. It's a little easier than you might think a is dit da be is dot that C is. Daudet debt? I like saying Don did it's Di da did is just one dit f is did dodge it and going back to your question. Why is it not a bit for one for two for three? I feel like beats about to drop. But one is actually did dot da da seems long for one does. And what we're talking about right now, this this code Rian back to you is what became known as international Morris code, and it was adopted by the international community because incorporated, the Latin alphabet with some extra Latin letters and also air bec- numerals and punctuation in some other symbols that were not accounted for in Morse's original coat. So over time more says basis for more code got phased out, and it actually ended up not even being the original Moore's code that Morris created that kind of took hold and got a doctor by the international community. It was this internet. Morse code that was developed by Frederick Clemens Gerke, who is a German writer journalist and also someone that was very interested in telegraphy, and he revised that Morse code to make it make more sense include more necessary characters that could be adopted more widely. Yes. So ten years after that first. Telegraph line opens in eighteen forty four. There were over twenty three thousand miles of line or wire crossing the continent and hit a watershed moment as various businesses that required. Quick long distance communication began us telegraph systems, railroad companies were one of the first to the plate there. They would use it to communicate between their stations. And these telegraph companies began to pop up everywhere that you could imagine while this was happening countries in Europe or developing their own system of Morse code and the code used in America was called American Morse. Road or railroad Morse and the code used in Europe was called continental Morse. And so that's when that's when they realize they need to standardize the stuff as you pointed out with something that everyone can agree on and one of the things that brought this need for an international code to public. Attention was the use of radio communication, invented in the eighteen nineties, right and radio frequencies got longer and longer and longer it became possible to communicate internationally, and that's when they realize, okay. If we're talking about a global level of communication, we all have to more or less, be speaking the same language, and it's right. And as technology tends to do it was subsumed by the next best thing, which became the telephone or the talking telegraph, and then radio communication or wireless. Right. Because you didn't have to have the infrastructure. It was all done on radio waves. Yeah. That was. Adopted by the military for communicating between, you know planes, and such and even though like for example, amateur radio enthusiasts still use Moore's code. It's a little bit more of kind of quirky holdover from the past. I believe Ben you were telling me that the that pilots in military personnel. Had to learn more showed up until I think the nineties, right? Yeah. Up until the nineteen nineties pilots were required to know, how to communicate using Morse code and up until two thousand seven if you wanted to get an amateur radio license you had to pass Morse code proficiency test. But you're right. The average person today is probably not going to communicate Morse code. And they're probably not going to know it most of us wouldn't know Morse code. I mean, I admitted the beginning this show that I promptly forgot it after getting whatever merit badge. I was I was gunning for and believe. Or not man American Morse code. The railroad Morse code is still around. It's nearly extinct, but it's still around and one group of people who are keeping it alive might surprise. You short amateur radio operators. I feel like that's that's an easy one civil war re-enactors to civil war reenactor, keep American Morse code alive. Interesting and one that I hadn't thought about is something we haven't even discussed at all is that you can also transmit Morris code visually through flashes of light. And it c- to communicate between ships or for ship communicate with shore. They have these lamps that have shutters on them. They can flash codes to you know, to the shorts. You can actually get messages back to shore by line of sight and military personnel. POW's have used Morse code through blinking to communicate the true nature their situation. Video it's got all kinds of USA. Still not to mention young lads. Banging on tree stumps in the forest. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a huge industry nowadays. And that's our story. A there. There is a point though that we should make. And that is that the telegraph system or something like it would have developed without Samuel Morse because so many people were working on something similar, however, his personal mission. I is passion to to save other people from the situation that he himself encountered played a huge role in the timing of Morse code for it to become a thing when it did. It may have taken a little bit longer had one man not been so emotionally personally driven to pursue this innovation. And you know, what I say, thanks because we couldn't have had a podcast if things like Morse code and telegraphs and later radio ever existed. Certainly like one of the earliest forms of longest communication that served as the basis for it's just the spark of an idea say, hey, what if I could communicate and idea or thought or a message from point eight point B, that's literally what podcasting in broadcasting. A media of any kind is. It's all a jumping off from that simple idea. One day. We should tell the story of Farnsworth the inventor of television. You know, he got that idea when he was a fourteen year old farmhand well story for a day. And we've got to say, maybe we should go back rerecord this entire episode in Morse code. What do you think Gannon about that? Thinking let us know your thoughts on Morse code feel free to write to us in Morse code. If you wish you can find us on Facebook. You can find us on almost said Amazon. I don't know if you can find Amazon, but we're definitely on Twitter, and you can find us collectively and individually on Instagram. I am at Ben bullet. I am at embryonic insider, you can check out our community page on Facebook ridiculous historians where you can drop your history memes and hang out with your fellow podcast fans enthusiasts. Check us out. Next time. We explore the weird story of how a stray dog caused a war through. In the meantime, thanks to our super producer, Casey peg REM Casey, I want to make eye contact with you and apologize for bringing up the Casey face t-shirt again. But now, the more I say the phrase the more and feeling so I don't know if this puts us on opposite sides of history. But I hope we remain friends. We'll see you ends up on the right side of history. Thanks to Williams who composed our theme. And it's always on the right side of history and the right side of our hearts along with Gabe, our research, associate Ben and you as well, and you know, what to use Samuel Morse cheerio. This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you by dressed their over seven billion people in this world. And we all have one thing in common every day. We all get dressed, join fashion stories, April Callaghan. Cassidy's accurate twice a week as they explore. The who what? When of why we wear guests include museum curator's experts from around the world and each episode is accompanied by images on their fabulous. 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Emotional Survival for Police Officers After a Police Shooting w/ Adam Pasciak, PhD
"Between the police and the communities that they serve thank you so much for tuning in really appreciate it. Please make sure that you rate subscribe and most important share these episode. Share them family with your friends. Tell you friends your family and your co workers and your neighbor. The guy you're seeing traffic the guys walking on the streets The guy you read the the gal that you meet at the store or at the coffee you say you guys. Can you see them under headphones. Buying up if they're this podcast and ask them. Hey have you checked. you know. That's one of the best ways to make sure that these episodes of going on support the podcast also pay cash app and then we'll all those cpt l. hunter papon lonzo a. c. h. e. r. Capped hunter make sure that you're doing all those as well You can hit me up on. Cpt l. hunter i g mail dot com. You can follow me an instagram. Cpt l. hunter twitter cdt. Facebook captain punctures. Podcasts monday seven thirty. Pm eastern standard time. We have a new episode. Live up so you can call in china and Write their notes and here you know different experts or even just different. You know random conversations not always going to have an expert. Sometimes i just want to talk to normal everyday people who just have a conversation about what's going on in the world and howard coping in the howard living our surviving with the pandemic with police shootings with the resurgence of nationalism. With the politics is always something for us to discuss. And so we're looking to get into all the type of thing podcast This particular episode. Adam pays yet. I don't pay check this particular episode held onto it for a little bit For a little bit. I think it's to release now. Because of the recent incidents that happened in brooklyn center minnesota a right or dante right was shot by officer importer or potter and So you know it's time to understand what's going wrong with this and so many times we focus on what happens to families into the victims and i've said a couple episodes The trauma that that is induced upon families. I've talked to michael l. I talked to a number of different people who've experienced tragic losses within their families but also understanding. We officers are humans as well that deal with pain to do trauma and we're going to look speak with a former police officer. Adam paperback who was a former police officer himself he went through a traumatic incident then are retired from law enforcement went back to school. His phd now is helping other officers do with their pain trauma and all that type of thing can't have people whether you'd losing their jobs because of the economy whether they're they're dealing with stress and depression because of covid or just a police officer who is not just a police officer but police officers who are dealing with stress and trauma because of their jobs who are taking their lives any of these any and all these people that i've just in this lines of profession need help and assistance from the things that are dealing with. And so adam pays eac wrote a book called after the smoke clears Surviving the police shooting in analysis. The post officer involved in treating Shooting trauma surviving. The police shooting and analysis of the post officer involved shooting trauma. It's in the second edition After the smoke clears surviving the police. So this is available to charles thomas's publishing house In i'm sure that says it's available in anywhere else. That books are sold initially a copy of that. I'm not gonna and we know that we're dealing with a lot of. It's going on. As i mentioned army veteran was pepper sprayed The traumatic shooting in really really unfortunate shooting accidental. Shooting in my estimation of dante. Right dante right in brooklyn center. Minnesota homicide not a murder I doubt very highly of do dawson. That particular officer can potter to jail. But we'll see Anyway let's get going with the episode. Everyone here is the episode with adam pays iak licensed clinical social worker talking about how police officer survive emotional trauma after police shoot. Police reform is more than just a trending topic. My name is lawrence. I'm a retired police. Captain from the state of connecticut and i've written a new book called police reform and i talked about the evolution of law enforcement here in america and what changes need to be made in order to improve the relationship between the police and the communities that they served over the past few months it's become increasingly important and more evident that there's something missing arrive between the police and the communities that they serve so whether about defunding. The police are defending the police. If you're blue lives matter or black lives matter. No matter what side of the fence us happened to sit on. Make sure that you pick up. Your copy of police perform today You got a lot of experience working with the police issues slight a few a few. Yeah yeah yeah. I was a An officer for twenty four years retired as a captain You know so. Few years taught in defensive tactics. I did Training with Bias instructor at our police academy Joan so disin- things here and there you know. Yeah looks like you still stay involved with things too. So that's neat. Yeah while i'm trying to. This is my way of staying connected. You know i mean some. It looks like a variety of topics on your podcast. i do. Yeah yeah so i try to. You know my tagline is bridging the divide between the police in the community so i can't just always talk about police stuff. Went up with the police. do better. that's how about the community needs to do better. You know so so. That's kind of a two way. It's kind of a two way thing. Yeah particularly for for you know. The african american community always to point the finger but sometimes we got ourselves. Hey listen know what are we doing. You know In so It's always it's always a touchy subject. But it's one that has to be addressed you know can can always point inside. They need to do this. they need to do that. We need to do some things. So yeah i think that's that's easy to get titus. Actually had this conversation. My son. editing. tommy boy day like the parents to do differently or whatever and mike you need to look at also what contribute to this amick because anytime you have two sides there's a dynamic and one affects the other in you know so you have to step back and look Agreements exactly what. You're saying that there might be some messed up thing going on but are you feeding into it somehow and if you are then you least change things at your end maybe if Come right there right so Sometimes not always completed easy like that but Is la times very simple. Okay yeah if you don't do this then things don't play out like this is like if you come out of your car. Young screaming at the the company pushover. If i don't get confrontational right back to you. Listen to hands on the steering wheel and You know you're gonna split and everything else might still get a ticket but generally things goal is wooder. Yeah gone that dynamic seems to be lost. And i did want to ask you about about the trauma. That officers face You know we'll get into this adopters face After some type of confrontation like that video goes viral. And all that kind of stuff right so somebody just sent me the the viral video now of his nine year old who was Handcuffed and pepper sprayed and rochester. New york there so again. This kid is not going to fool. I realize he's got some mental illness. Things going on and everything like that. But you know the officers. Did i think what they had to do. You know from from the surface of the video and everything but but unfortunately community you saying you know. She's nine they got better to okay. Wow okay got it got slow down relax air you know so but i understand that you understand that but many many people just don't wanna hear that you know they just see the age of the grown say cops ought to be just superman in mind readers and all that kind of stuff so completely competent within mental health issues so yeah yeah which whereas master level degrees education in handling Enabling mentally disturbed person. Okay now i would tell you even in psychology. I'm not sure know how to handle something like that. I can imagine. I wouldn't expect somebody to be able to figure that one. Oh yeah yeah. I mean in. Unfortunately we do it. We know to do. And that's put people in restraints to put him down and use the tools on our belts so if we want an to certain extent i agree that i agree that if we want something different we have to train them in the pair them differently or or son Counselors to every single mental health. Illness calls either in lieu of the police for along with the police. So i guess there's going to be an interesting bridge to cross. Because i think what has happened for communities is police have been like this utility I think that it just does everything. Right and So and of course you can do a lot of things okay. But you're not gonna do everything really well. And yes so he say now. We want to start bringing in these mental health professionals which is probably the better way to go. They don't do it for free right you know a how. Are you going to do that as logistics thing And probably most reason reasonable minded mental health professionals are not going to want to go on the violent Calls right this. The that's not what was just the people that go into any of these helping fields are wanting to do the true at but most of us are. Yeah that's not what i signed up for. Yeah yeah. They went to work in a nice cushy office. it's absolutely right. How can you blame them. So you know so then. Do you really saw probably even doing that. I think it seems like easy enough. Solution does this but as a practical thing you know. Is it really going to work out absolutely absolutely so we of jumped into this here so i appreciate you coming on a pacific. How do you pronounce pays. Yeah okay. everybody adding everybody in my life. I said well we'll just that. Is that to the listener. Tab i read something recently was on polish boys name heritage nights. I've heard my name is pronounced different ways. I'm not sure. I'm saying so Would you tell us about yourself and thank you so much for coming. To capitol hunters podcast. I truly appreciate it. Just give us a little background in history about yourself your education and all that while work As a police officer for twenty two hundred twenty years and quite make it to the full twenty retired as as detective there and Suit retired as a matter. While medical retirement and from there went back to school my hd in psychology and had been in private practice doing that since mostly working with police and other first responders trauma very good very good and you went to We both went to walden are saw that you went to ask. Yeah it's kind of cool. Yeah i i thought about going back to my phd in psychology. But i decided not to so this is another not. I mean So how is that with your with your state boards. They i mean they didn't have problem taken the taking the online degree or anything at that time. When i got it. So i finished up. Two thousand twelve. The change happen hundred and thirteen with the walden on crete or the state of michigan online degrees where they had different requirements. So i got on in under the wire okay. Decide looked at. I think i'm not sure about connecticut. That's where i'm at. I had looked at florida. Because i thought about moving to florida one time and i know that they did not accept online degrees either so it's probably going to become very problematic for everyone who's going back to school because everybody's doing it online you know. Some progress has some changes coming up in a lot of things. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah so what made you decided to go back forward psychology. How did you choose that I i think if i look back to when i got a high school into college ahead that idea then And then just gotta wave at. I think what happened is after. I was injured on duty. The rollout of things that can maybe look at things differently things. That just didn't make sense. That i was trying to understand and so ultimately that kind of i think influence me back into that that world psychology trying to understand the brain and how things happen might do and how we process things like we do so I think just as i was as detective one of the things that always fascinated me was more the why of things why things happen. Why do people do this when you know. That's just not really good decision and you know trying to understand that so it was kind of a natural transition i think to give back to get into this field and ultimately also work with officers had been experienced trauma. Who just you know from my own experience trying to say wildfires. But i've learned on the show that with somebody else good So you do you talk about your injury. I mean do you talk about it all or do you mind talking about bouncing balls off duty related shooting in nineteen ninety eight and this series of physical things that happened afterward to try to correct the issues and so off of work for a long time and and just understanding how that dynamic plays out with an injured officer in their department how that relationship by look What the impact on the author is that appears especially returned to work with adults ultimately. Be mac that is as well because i think there. There is a tendency to react differently to and injured officer when they come back. So that that's a lot of. I think You know what i bring to the equation has being to share with with people that are coming to see me short having lived through it. I mean it's gotta be you know kind of a you the education but you've got the experience that's got to be kind of a double plus for people to especially as cops. We always want wanna talk to somebody who wore the uniform. you know. it's a great thing about the resume. But you know and and i'm sure you that cops general are not quick to say. Hey i wanna go see there. That's true that's very true unfortunately important. That's a whole different dynamic. There that soccer's at that mental mental health professionals and law enforcement law enforcement. Ten look at that as with a kind of weary. Ira like not not really sure what they're all about. Or i could trust them. Yeah yeah how're you. How is your relationship with other mental health professionals psychologists today today do they look to you for a certain level of expertise when dealing with cops. How does that go I don't know if i see that necessarily one of the things that I know that helps me as i do. Npr work And that's a treatment for trauma so that's not something that a lot of people do and saw get referrals based on that. I don't know about if it's because of Known this area. That i work with least so i'll get referrals because of that like okay. I don't know if many people don't my background. Are you that. I was involved but just that. Here's this guy this area. He works wisconsin. So you sent me a really a really good article that you in another wrote in. That is beginning to put his name. I don't have it pulled up in front of me. It's it has to do with You know just demeo Generals in policing for about terms right. And how we gotta be this tough guy this john wayne type of personality that you know as as we talked about before really mixed what one reluctant to go seek the help when they go through a traumatic incident or any incident right actually gone through situations. What your wife or whatever right. We don't we don't want we don't want to talk to people. So can you talk a little bit about that. Yeah so that was you know again from a the experience afterward Seeing how people just don't talk about things So kind of okay. Well why is this why. What's up with this dynamic. And and so the idea. Is that that men in particular are. We're we're you know we're not really good with the emotional piece of things We just not really socialized to to really have a good grasp of the emotions. I think there's something that were you know. We see this as a sign of weakness and you know generally we kind of get that Teased out of us. Probably when we're younger crying or upset about things are peers are really good about offered has support. We learn at early age to really not get very expressive with and then in the field of police work in specific. It's it's intensified. Eat more because there. Is this expectation that you're going to respond to things outlets very store demeanor right. So you're not going to be outwardly. Showing anything Even though internally might have all kinds of stuff going on you can bring this other image. And i think this is something that as a as a practical thing probably makes a lot of sense right like if you're getting to a serious accident where injured or killed. People were some other incident. That's really all that people are emotionally charged up to have that person that men and conveyance home that that is a thing you know. You're responding openly to this thing as well as everybody else. That would probably not out things go like they needed you. So you dab you adopt that kind of mentality. you can't even elevated a bit from where you start off and before the job other level of okay. I'm not going to show any kind of emotion and then of course you still feel the emotions. You still feel this. You know when you experience as different Messed up things and even like you said even at home got the situation where kids not listening to your wife's not not happy with you You know whatever any okay. Well i don't get this emotional thing and allow myself to get emotionally invested and stuff. What thing that really kind of jumped out to me in. That article is that You talked about being socializes wade western countries. You think that this is really a western type of thing or the united states. Typing american thing As far as our socialization as males internet something that we don't know if it's not. I think western probably a suspect that so i go to uk very similar. And i don't know. I was in poland a couple of years ago. I think Well homeless people the general in aberrationally outward out socially anyway so. I don't know where that starts to change. If it's if it's just a global deal of a certainly in our culture for sure ad that seems to be the case that we really have this emphasis on Not appearing weak now. If you're a male you're supposed to be like the john wayne thing right so called their dislike the saying about the was it the texas ranger thing one on riot one rain ranger. Yeah you know we kind of adopt that sorta thing is as males were supposed to be able to get to a situation where supposed to be able to to quickly grasp what's going on and figure it out in you know in reality. We're not really really prepared to move more often than not. We're not we don't have answers to everything. We don't have the knowledge that we we'd fix every problem but you know there seems to be this this thing that gets ingrained in us. And we're supposed. Yeah yeah what So so talk about some of the challenges that People are particularly officers Go through when they deal with look at a traumatic event whether to shooting a car accident. you know dead baby I can just tell the story right. Quick here So you know. I was fairly new on the job and I we get a call about a baby not breathing so on the first officer to response there and we were the first responders right. We got there before the medics. So i walk into. Actually the the woman met me at the bottom of the stairs in literally through the baby at me and my baby's not breathing tried to catch the baby in the air. And i bring him in the house and start doing the cpr and everything like that. Doing the best i could in you know got scott not long. After in long story short the baby did die so the next day i had just happened to go in. I working the midnight shift. Go home sleep for a little while you know. Twelve one o'clock or so. I go into the pd. I think i was picking up my check or something. I don't know what i don't know. Why would there but but The quartermaster was the head of unit. I'm even know the name of the unit. Now i think we've revamped at two or three times since then but it was you know basically you know some type of emotional support unit for police officers And he was beheaded particularly unit that we had so he pulls me in the office. In you know as house me to call you gonna give you some time to sleep. But i see your hair now and i see how you're doing you know after the baby died last night and i was really okay. I don't think i have any emotional lingering effects today but i was more impressed that they actually care that this study extra. Pull me in the office and that meant a lot to me. That's that's already cool. Yeah it's probably any job. Maybe maybe a year or two or something along those lines so So can you just talk once again just about about the emotional Or in even physiological responses that people have when they see these types of events. yeah absolutely. that's that's a. That's impressive your that. Because i think a lot of agencies don't and you know it's almost like myth like why would you need talks about. It was wrong with you you week because it's a mess defense. Of course i would like to talk to somebody right and not everybody is going to be the thing with trauma which is which is kind of interesting is that not everybody exposed to a traumatic bend ultimately develops ats. And so you think about that is why would that be if it's if it's the event and everybody should develop a dsp as a result of and basically kind of what. I have an learned experience. Working with a lot of people is that it's not necessarily the event is what you attach to right and then if you look at a lot of people that struggled with Like a baby call. Why would they struggle with wall. You could say well it's because Here's his infant at die right so At shouldn't have happened Well if you if you process it at everything that you could and you know unfortunately this just happened. You would be okay with fat. It would still be able to but you'll be able to process just that way it'd be done with it but if you've got here sooner or fight accounting audit done this or whatever that starts to change the way that you you process this thing in his starts to become something that lingers longer So i think a lot of us relearn. You're we to have this expectation of it's called to a scene. You arrive youth fix things you save people. You do whatever right. This is how we start see ourselves and when it doesn't work out that way that's that's something that can kinda messed with know officers mentally so you know the things that alone line that good too far away from you original question but but you just start to look at things differently you start reactive start to a lot of other stuff differently and zealand. Unfortunately because we're not talking about anybody because we think we got a grip on it or or or not supposed to get into these kinds of conversations with people Than it just makes the problem. Worse yeah So we get these Dist signs of simpson's approached dramatic stress. Disorder lack asleep. Can you run through some of those little bit for people. Know the sleep thing. The flashbacks. That's probably one of the more telling signs of it You have An that could be visual things. That could be a smelting. It could be any of your senses. Really good and kind of triggered hyper vigilance is a big one. So you're just constantly on edge in reacting more often over reacting to things Because you're already in this kind of heightened state right so Noises or more additional. Stressors would be things that people would potential overreact to One of the things that i know for myself that started to happen was weights type of things. Start to avoid of places you start to avoid people start to do things differently so than depressed mood anxiety be so different things that physically start to happen for you After exposure to something like this and Again if you could work on it you go to a therapist you can go to your doctor talk about maybe medication. Start to do those kinds of things that went out with loud stuff. But instead i think because of the culture the way it is times what we do. Is we find something that works. And that's socially acceptable which tends to be alcohol. So alcohol's gonna knock you out. Help you sleep. Alcohol's gonna help you to where you don't think about danes a little bit. So that whatever's going on isn't there anymore and unfortunately it works But then at least two other problems actually. One thing that you said it was really interesting is What we attached to it to the event and you mentioned. Did we do all the we could have done in that. I think is i think about that. A lot You know and my calls that. I do everything that could have done. Date did i. Did i get there on time. That take the fastest route that i perform. Cpr long enough burning buildings. Should i have run into that building right. And so that that is there a guilt associated with that As far as guilt tricky tricky. Because if you have simply you're looking at it like a debriefing thing right where you can look at something your critique i did. I do what i was trained to do. I do the things i was forced to do. All the little things like that as a warning thing. That could be a helpful experience Next time i'll do this next time. I will this way or all kind of because you know there are some things every never encountered before and you know in so we just kind of wing it or do whatever we think is going to be the best thing but then after you. We've done it and we see all crappy you know by doing this. It led to these things. Did i did think about so next time. I'll do this differently right so we did that. That will be fine but if we're doing it more of a lamey thing or a shaming thing or guilty that's going to be what messes up right if let's say in reality. We did everything we could have done. But we stay. While if i would've won one stop sign if i would have whatever could have got through like three seconds sooner and Lit well that's not what led to that rise above. Were attached this. If we're putting the blame on ourselves were starting to have as a result of that at this link yield from it. That helped us hang on the incident and not letting go. I think to to say now that it go i mean. Of course you're going to remember something like that but the depth of feeling that goes with it will always be a sad memory. I think if you process in a healthy way it would just be. It would be a sad memory for is but for people that are processing it in unhealthy way. It's got this guilt. Attached to it as god. This other thing attached with is really powerfully ocean piece attached to it. And and that's where the those types of things are the things that we struggled you talk about the in the ineffectiveness of well. I guess in fact mrs. right word. We don't know the if if it's these talk therapy groups or sessions. After a traumatic incident are actually helpful. Talk about that a little bit. We don't really know right. The scientists in conclusive in nets. It seems to be that you have. You talked to people afterwards. Most people would say it helped. I think it just as an anecdotal thing. People would just say this was a beneficial thing. But i don't know. I think we're the research says is ab things really changed for these people afterward. And and that's kind of murky on that and you know but maybe what's And go back to the article. I talk on the the spelled us cis e critical incident stress debriefing or cis of mankind is a system that was thought of years back and the guy who came up with it. I think he was a he was a fireman and in there are similarities with police. Fire dow. But i think there is a difference in terms of You know generally speaking. I wanna say the at firemen. More communal and firemen police are tend to be depending on the agency a lot. More right like more agency came in power. Your car keys went on the road by yourself and sometimes you get another officer while you're on the road Sometimes you have step by yourself. Farming things groups. They stay in their station house. They have their meals together. You know they're very very different. So you know you think about an approach stats designed for a fireman. Is that but a work as laws or cops. Maybe not you know. Maybe that one is because of the nature of people that you're getting fashion maybe to tweak it a little bit and one of the things that we talked about the article was maybe having you know instead of just a straight up degrees where are by acids round circle and shares their experiences about what happened. And what t- what. They saw her during that time. Maybe what you have is young more workshop type of thing. We have people do hands on to where the not necessarily focused so much on this incident itself but you know being able to kind of get involved in a constructive kind of exercise while they're engaged maybe kind of talking about the incident so changing up a little bit maybe that would be a little more beneficial because i think as as as a rule all my own department So we had a a group that did these debriefings. And some most allen by everybody but there were several people that referred to them as hug bunch so very derogatory name right so conveyed a very negative image. Who wants to go. Talk to huggy. Bunch. i'm not gonna talk to them. That's not kind of about versus you. Know departments have A very very much at embraced years. This thing at this group is pure support. Talk about stuff right. It's it's there's no stigma attached to it is very encouraged courage or friendly. It's very well receipt. That has a lot of positive or no boston think they had on earth wants for that. And you know this long. Many years has been going but quit while stars and okay you if you know that the apartment embraces it and you know that you can trust these people thing too right. So there's there's a trust l. a if you go to this debris and everybody people say something. They disclose debrief that somebody runs her mouth on outside of the group on insurance with everybody right well that can that can create problems. But if you have a situation where you know what you say is contained to this group than by respects that. Then you're more likely to do the work that needs to be done while you're there so there is that perception so it really a tricky It's a tricky thing to balance all those little details and you know let's say there is potentially middle charges pending on. Let's shooting how how. How much are you going to disclose during that time. Probably not alive because you should automated end so that can interfere with the activeness of this type of exercise. So what really is it really. That's going to work and then how to how to implement it as kind of a tricky thing. Yeah yeah so obviously you suggested departments Have some type of Critical incident stress to refrain team system Or maybe even A number of departments right if you an area word smaller departments you know ten department we get together in really create. Create something that you would suggest that right. Yeah in fact my The county we have a part of the their group. That's their volunteers. I'll people people in law enforcement are associated with it so if there is a smaller or does have access to the casta notice. Call up say hey to you. Assemble team for us. We just had this incident and the these people together. Here you go. Here's this team of people that can do this. So i know a lot of michigan a lot of agency a lot of counties to do that. I don't know about other states how they work out. Assuming it's a pretty well known model. It's been in place since the eighties nineties. We had a postal shooting incident. That post office and it was pretty nationally covered. And since then. I want to say a lot of these place and i don't know if the reached out to other states but throughout michigan it. It was pretty well it after that. Is there a way to break this. The the stigma behind mental health in particular no generally amongst the population in particular amongst these rough tough cops. Who you know growing conan things the hub. Bunsen is our way to break the stigma and let people know it's okay to be vulnerable. We would socialize not to be. Is there a way to break that. I am seeing an answer as you can see how a males are in our society now. Current generation racers is designed to be a different way that we're kind of being socialized in terms of gender roles. What is supposed to look like. Let's go mean you could say that's good. That's bad and that's different discussion. There any in any event maybe the benefit of that is that we start to look at things differently. Sort hope my feelings on you start to look at this being okay. I i think people see mental. Health is less of a stigma in general. So that you know that's potentially good that menon at younger ages starting come in and try to work on. Things is a healthy thing. But you know as far as you know. How do you get that to the police population. I don't know Because i thought you know when i got involved in this one of the things my in my from my dissertation i was trying to do some research with a surveys and not two different agencies at on my credentials might speak for themselves like you guys so As it turned out. I got very little ons. It was young maybe ten percent which is kinda but i thought you don't because it might you know who i am and what have been through and all that kind of stuff that would have got me into this group right but i don't think it's kind of deal i don't think it's like Because of who. I am is just. Here's this mindset and again this because of young some of the old timers of use it as down some of it's the department administration things about you. I guess there are a lot of concerns. What if you go to a therapist. What did they say you are crazy. What if they say you can't carry a weapon. You can't do whatever right. So this gets in their brain And they're thinking they're like well. I don't want to go see smyers go potentially say something that's going to affect my ability. Establishing so you know there's a concern of that there is concern is seen as weak co so until we kinda change the culture of some aneska to where it is just a regular thing I don't know how you get rid of that. So maybe if he had mental health more closely related to police You know maybe that would change a little bit. Maybe it pushes him further away. Because you start working with somebody who's been out people you see. Well i don't know if. I can really trust them with what i need to deal with. Because they have this other whole other agenda as a tricky balance is like you know how please we generally look at turns very not very. I don't know about where you're at more often than not. We're looking at trade right off. The bat is can't trust them. No no we do something here in connecticut worked for the opposition. We can't trust. But then you get to know about a bit. And i would say that over and over the years. I got a couple attorneys. Like okay yeah. They're disagreeable concern. Start to have relationships with them. And maybe maybe a little bit more that just getting normalize and being around a little bit and for right now most agencies. We don't have contact with mental health people. They're out on this other entity that we don't know anything about and in general you know things that we don't know anything about the arguments are we tend to be distrustful now as we get to know. Is we get to learn more more exposure to than Get a little more comfortable with it. So maybe that really is. The answer is like so many other things that we open that. open up a little bit Becomes more normalized and advantage on. But certainly hope. So i certainly hope so. Do women struggle in the same ways that men do after some type of traumatic incident particularly million general. What both both women. in general women in law enforcement. Yea i think specifically women law enforcement. It probably a little worse. Because i often i think is still eighty. Eighty eight percent men enforcement probably know You're not going to have very much in the way of pure support as a female. But it's different dynamic. And i think in that females in police were generally have to portray this Even undisciplined Above what kind of spa were trying. They don't wanna look weak especially on a harder dynamic. I think and But you know. I think one of the benefits that females more likely into there so you know they have a better likelihood of working through whatever's going on Once they do that by in general you know a lot of things that we do that are healthy earth. Being able to talk about feelings able to cry in front of somebody be able to talk to a friend about what's on about how they're feeling let you know mendes thome typically do and the nets. That's something that is they're they're credited or benefit. It helps them to work through things. And so you based on your work there. As soon you're traumatic experiences you wrote a book After the smoke clear scheme talk a little bit about that. Yeah that was It was a fluky opportunity Guess there is a guy had written the first edition of it some years ago and i came across it and it was so much about what i was trying to talk about. It was weird. It was just a while this is this is the same thing and And then got in touch with the publisher but anyways it was an opportunity for a second edition any initial He passed on on it. So i had the opportunity to revise it. So it's basically kind of a the things to expect after a shooting know we think we kind of in our head that the biggest deal is the actual shooting. And it's not really. I mean that's a little couple seconds type of deal typically. It's the stuff that happens after that you'll raise the bar that we have to so physical changes things like with all the symptoms. Vesta then changes in how people react to the relationship changes departmental stuff and public perception. If you're dealing with like some things nowadays with You have something where you're shooting that that's on the news. A nationwide near portrayed is really horrible person the impact that it has not just you but your family as well. So there's that piece did. I do talk about personal experience with what i went through And you know just to the initial thing recovery trinity back to work and then i think at the end. It was about Trying to talk about. How kind of. Why tappin's alright. So why are are we behaving this way. So just kind of my take my clinical experience or knowledge and wouldn't that be soccer to the end so just trying to understand. Why did we do what we do. And tv as tv really Painted distorted image. For people right they see these television shows and the cops who someone and you know in in our later back on the and people think that people think that you know. I've talked to people and say listen you know we. We process things. We have to go through things We were taking off the street. Are guns taken away in that has a mental effect psyche as well into the You know they think that we just can just shoot someone and just go back to the daily life and go to the grocery store like pick up the eggs on the way home. Shoot somebody else. That would be a scary cop to find wasn't affected by that. Yeah yeah do you Do so you There was an officer. Someone i did a show with someone and they said that the officer this is in california that the officer had shot one person in two weeks later. I think it was two weeks later. He had shot someone else. So i couldn't understand why this officer was on the street. Do you see a difference or problem with different departments as far as their this may be outside your scope there but i try anyway as far as how they how they deal with officer involved shootings taking officers on the street. You know a standardized practice about what we do. How we handle is in order to get these people number one. The help to facilitate some take the legal process. Do you see a problem with with that kind of thing. Absolutely but fine actually talked said so after something big like that the next day they're on the road and because they're small enough that the men our they don't have the ability to save Ask for a while to get this sorted out You're expected to do your job right so that dad's hard because then officers not dealing with whatever had you know. This is a liability thing you think about like a visit questionable saying and then go out. And you're you're you're kind of caught up in china process all this information in the cloud your judgment on another situation. Even if you're not wrong but just to say you know your your judgments someone in on it add liability wise create problems agencies. I'm not sure how they you know they get past that or or maybe. It isn't the issue that i think it might be. But just is a general thing. It seemed like a sense to say. Let's the said the off this permanent and take step back while we're while this is all because there's a there's a different. There's a whole process. So i know for myself. There was a warrant requested against me for the killing of this person. And you know which has an officer you like. You're a part of this criminal investigation. And so my fates in the hands of somebody else. So that's a stressful thing. That's very know something that if it's on your mind you know to get closure on Impact your thinking. And he'll any of these things you know for lucky we kill infamous gaps. We'll go for whole career. It never had anything that right. Some cops seemed to have like this. It finds them where they find. It all works out but you know for the most part if we have that time to kind of process it through it just works better for us to be able to be better for encountered next one big thing that you mentioned is the isolation that officers go through think. This was in the article that they go through from. The cops are the other cats will will not be around him as much I can remember now. This officer store cited story but There was a story and when my department which is really something really stupid. And i wanted to reach out to them and i think he was. I think he was my deputy chief at the time that this is not the case. You know you of just to let this guy just kind of go it so he had done something dumb but officers as you mentioned you. You don't know if you do anything but have questionable shoot. That's like you said in the hands of the prosecutor or whatever And so but officers will isolate themselves from dot com. You stop texts. New in that can add more stress. So what would you say to officers who are They did something completely stupid. We agree to kind of leave. But but if it but if it's on defense or you know something that you think they'll come through. How would you suggest that other officers Reach out suggest or or you. Be your suggestions. Yeah that's a great question. Because i think you'll get that isolation and the problem with that is at that's all it's replaying in your mind right. That's that's the only thing is and you know in one thing to campaign consider is that this is like a therapy thing. I'll talk to anybody about. Is that in a moment when we do something we do. What at that moment seemed to be the best thing to do. I mean most people do approach things that could have been headed saying right but in that moment you were thinking this and that's why you did what you did and you know around afterward like say you can take it apart after later but in that moment. That's why i shouldn't say that later on but You can you can always get a sense of why somebody based on thinking was at the time that they did So as as sporting officer be able to say do what know. What were you thinking when this app and you know to approach it that way maybe gives them an opportunity to to process working out or whatever you know and still stay connected right because think well first off. Maybe we're reluctant to to talk to because it's bone at thing we don't want annoyed. Think is innocent. Might ask me about it. And i might have tell so. I don't know again. It's how but but again that That disconnect furthers feeling device isolation and You know potentially you end up losing a good officer that kind of stuff do because they could develop resentments and they start to get an idea that while. They're not going to have my back when i do my best and i do. I made this mistake. And now i'm going to get turned on by everybody. You know you start to get back into thinking. Going on was messed up because more often than i think you know. The people that they hire or police officers tend to be decent. People now is every decent. Wanna make good decisions all the time absolutely not. I don't think any of us could ever say that Certainly in the field where you encounter it to so many different things uh throughout your career in throughout the day but you always is a kind of always have the assumption that people in the in a moment when he did whatever messed ping might have done. That was probably the best. Well thank you so much. For coming on the podcast. I really really enjoyed the conversation. I likewise where can get the book We're is it not. I think it's mostly on amazon and the publisher charles. Thomas is the publisher. This name of it amazon's easiest way. I guess so it makes if nothing else makes good doorstop. I'm sure it's a good read. I usually try to read it. But try to read books before. I have people on but i will get to it i i i will get to it so i appreciate talking to you and i look forward to stay in contact with the absolutely absolutely and the name of the book for the audience. There is a after the smoke clears surviving police shooting second edition so much for coming on the show passaic. I said that. I did. I say right. He's the i don't worry about it. Okay no worries dating. Police reform is more than just a trending topic. My name is lawrence sensor. I'm a retired police captain from the state of connecticut. I've written a new book called police reform. And i talked about the evolution of law enforcement here in america and what changes need to be made in order to improve the relationship between the police and the communities that they served over the past few months it's become increasingly more important and more evidence that there's something missing arrive between the police and the communities that they serve so whether you're about defunding. The police are defending the police. If you bought blue lives matter or black lives matter. No matter what side of the fence us happened. Sit on make sure you pick up your copy of police perform today.
E28: Pop Rock Cosmo, Phillip Harvey Spector, and Thomas Blood
"Hey, guys. You are listening to killer cocktails where the drinks are stiff, but the bodies are stiffer. This is a casual true crime podcast where two friends get drunk and talk about gruesome murders each week. We pick a different drink whose name or ingredients set the tone for our stories. Hey, guys. You're listening to killer cocktails after just kidding. It's still daylight. Hey, guys. We are killer cocktails as you heard from our intro, and this is April Fool's day. Gotcha. Yeah. Hold holidays. Polling on Mondays. Yeah. Or like near Monday. Yeah. It's nice. It's nice. So April Fools day. I hope y'all are having good clean fun. I love rain with this episode out on Sunday. Oh, beth? The real fools not not to Wednesday like. We're very busy ladies. Yeah. We got our day jobs. We got our side jobs. We've got her side hustles, and then we got this. So if April Fools, so we decided to do the pop rocks cosmic MU pop rocks cosmopolitan peppers Cosmo. I shouldn't just went like that. Yeah. Pop. Rex Cosmo gave why did you come across this? I thought you did. Curious. I think did I we both were looking at April Fools drink. That's literally all Google Google in the same area in our intern. Camrys send us over some suggestion. We haven't injured Camry a friend. She's helping us get our lives in order. Get us on a strict calendar. So we get off media out to you on the daily that'll be setting for you and us, but yes, so we're drinking the pop rocks. Cosmo it is not our favorite. It down right now. It's probably in my we need to come up with a clever punny name for like our wall. Shame. Oh, it'll be better than me saying while shame. Yeah. Right now, serve run ASA. Definitely king of the castle. Yeah. I don't know that we've had were strengh I with one I had like. Yeah. No. We should definitely get like a shame wall. Yeah. We'll think of something or maybe you guys can tell us a better funny word. Yeah. You guys are clever is send us a DM on Instagram. Any who these are is essentially Cosmo with pop rocks around the rim instead of sugar. Yeah. So that's the trick. So yeah. So to someone who doesn't know what's going on. It looks like sugar and go in for a nice Cosmo within like snap pop. And then your mouth is exploding young. You don't know why you're like Lord Jesus y what have I done too often do? But yeah, we got this recipe off of Martha stewarts website can't believe when you told me that that really that threw me, which you'll need is pop rocks, which was so hard to find. And I now know why? Because it's a trash candy. Yeah. In nobody wants to eat this. There's some things that are better left in your childhood. Yes. Like, I know better than to get a ring pop right now. You know ridiculous. You look with a ring pop. I make so much fun of you. So and like the ring pops funnier way to go without one. But if we're going to like straight up go to my childhood, my sister, light drink pops. I was about those push pops GM talking about what's push. Yeah. Never made that time. Yeah. No. But they were straight. A it was the same thing as a ring pop. It was like rustic. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll bloop. Oh, the news mouth all over it grows. The fund is just like a sugar going into sugar. That's what we did. From at thirtieth birthday. Oh, we went. We went to we went to sun out in front center. Oh, I love that plan. We played miniature golf, and arcade games and go car and had funded. We like sat on a bench fund ups, and you could tell like the same it was little sane. But will you be mad? If for my thirtieth. I will not be mad at thirty. It was that's the best way to turn thirty something childish, I literally had that exact same birthday party as a six year old. At the fun. The only part that was missing was. I also went to see ninja turtles three oh. We do that. Thirtieth. He should've watched it in the morning when I got up, you know, relive that goes on the gun hole. Samurai part the original. Is this words up here? All right back to the cosmic. Yeah. So Martha says get yourself some pop rocks, which we found out the dollar tree you're going to need vodka essentially triple sec man, some fresh lime in unsweetened pomegranate juice, but if you are what makes it a Martha Cosmo normally, you would use cranberry juice. Yeah. And not cranberry, juice, cocktail cranberry, juice juice in a unsweetened. I believe so so hard to find not cranberry cocktail. Yes. So hard. It was super her defend the pomegranate juice that wasn't over like eight dollars. But I found it 'cause I'm thrifty. Okay. I'm going to tell you about the history of the Cosmo. Cocktail the exact origin of the Cosmo is fuzzy as usual mostly because until the late eighties. It was a similar drink that went by different name. In the in the late nineteenth century, a cocktail known as the daisy was popular because it masks the taste of alcohol, but that one was the DC made out of it wasn't vodka because vodka wasn't hip and cool ham. And I don't have the information for you to reason I'm asking is because we remember back to the Margarita. Yeah. There was a hottie hood drink the daisy, and this, and it was a tequila version of the daisy. Yeah. So probably had lime some other booze in it was like a citrus. Another actress. Yeah. In the line, a lemon. Ooh. Yeah. All right. Those all rears its you know, what that means. We have to have a daisy episode dollop a day the do their house like I couldn't ask the one. Okay. So another origin story is that the company ocean spray, which is a op are they they are a they're not a consumer co op era growers co op so when you have cramped like it's a bunch of different growers, growing cranberries. And it's all under the ocean spray label. That's red is cool. Yeah. Co-ops great. Join a co up. Maybe there's one by you. They're nice. Okay. So yet they're co op which is read the ocean spray. They were trained to figure out how to get a dull to buy the cranberry juice because they had a lot of gravity so make because now they're co op and they're getting all this out. So in nineteen sixty eight they started printing, a cocktail recipe called the harpoon on their labels smart. So smart, this has been Poon, I'm gonna tell you. That's like back in the day. When like marketing was taking on its own kind of beasts like, yeah. Like making companies into like people, essentially. Yeah. Is that's a whole nother story, which is fascinating. But. The her Poon consisted of vodka cranberry juice in some lime. So it's a Cape Cod. Her with a little bit of lime. That sounds delicious. Sure. Yeah. Cranberry juice, oh has a Cape Cod area. Go. And so it's not quite a Cosmo yet because we don't have that triple second there. But the final version of the Cosmo might have been invented and became widely known because of the gay scene in the seventies Cosmo's. So we got to bartenders kind of competing for this title of inventor, so got Cheryl cook was bartending in south beach in the seventies and customers kept asking her to make a drink. That would make them look sophisticated yet was easier to drink than traditional MARTINI. So it's got to be up. That's his fisticuffs. And everyone knows that a cranberry in vodka's the easiest thing to drank if you're drinker. Yes. Yeah. Because all mass, oh, it's the go-to that was my first alcoholic drink ever, Chris. Yeah. So Cheryl crisis drink using a lemon infused vodka triple sec and combined with lemon, and they were so popular until the apple teeny was invented. Yeah. But this is a big hit because has that pretty pink Utah. Yeah. And then at the same time, you have a bartender named John Kane who was also experimenting with similar ingredients in province town in province down is located near one of the main cranberry producing regions in the US. I you know, how they say. Like, there's I don't know there's a term for it. But where two people are having independent gods. The land on the same joke the same idea. The I feel like one probably didn't Steeler take it from the other. I'll bet did organically grow between the two thinking about the pyramids all around the world that different town. We're showing you need them aware. But yes, guest ever, so using the juice in his cocktail would make sense because all cranberry. Yes. Available and when Kane left province town for San Francisco, he took the drink with him where it became popular within the gay scene on the Castro and that sewer Cozma history could cause mo- history. Jackie know, what else is going on right now more else is going on, April Fools. Oh, do you ever wonder where it came from? I here's what I'll say. I've never thought about that moment said that you looked up the history. Yeah. Then was dying to know. I don't know why never questioned like why is it a thing? Why is it just got so wrapped up in either trying to trick people or trying not to be trick? Because I'm incredibly stable. So gullible Lisa office pre should have been towards you. Don't. No. No. It's like, it's not even sporting. I'm just going to fall like it's not even worth it here like a fish in a barrel. Yeah. It's too easy. Okay. Well, I'm gonna tell you the history of the April Fool's day history. It's also called all fools day in it's been celebrated for centuries. Some historians speculate that April Fools day dates back to fifteen eighty two when France which from the Julian calendar to the gray area in calendars funny about you. Is you will ask me before record is this how you pronounce something? And you say it, right. And then when it comes to the moment while we record, I hold my breath, and I get excited for you. And then you watch me. It's not what you sit there early like a cave of the nice cream cone, and I go to. Off right off Gregorian Grigorian. Gregorian calendar. I would like to mention. Yeah. I have documented processing disorder there is there is my my mix up you guys. I'm wondering about the drinks. I'm one of you. I'm of the people. I am human, and I can't talk very well. All right. So we're talking about these two calendars. They switch over to a different one and people who are slow to get the news or fail to recognize the start of the new year had moved to January first in so people keep celebrating the the first of the year between March in April. I like the end of March. I love this whole ready. And so they became the butt of jokes and hoax 'cause they're like you can't read a calendar. Fun. These pranks included having a paper fish placed on their backs in being referred to as. I'm not gonna say, whatever this languages, but April fish, essentially, and it was said to symbolize young easily caught fish and Goble person. Oh my God. The original kick-me sign. Yeah. Yeah. This is great historians. Have also linked April Fools day two festivals. Which celebrate which were celebrated in ancient Rome at the end of March involved. People dressing up in disguises. There's also speculation. Oh, my place. The April Fools day was tied to the the equinoxes or the first day of spring northern hemisphere when mother nature fool people with changing unpredictable with who knows what's going on right now. And then lastly, there's a bunch of other stuff. The last one I'll reveal is April Fool's day spread throughout Britain during the eighteenth century in Scotland the tradition became a two day event starting with the hunting guac in which people were sent on phony errands like going snipe hunting. Yeah. Uh-huh. Exactly and followed by the tally day, which involved pranks played on people's Jerry eyars such as pinning fake tales or kick me signs on them. So again. Yeah. So that's there's a little bit more information. I got this from history dot com. So yes dot com. They had a little article about all the all the fun stuff. That's I like it. Yeah. I am now. More educated on. All right fighter murder. Marta time. I'm gonna tell you. I'm really curious if you should know this name. But sometimes I'm surprised by the major people, you don't know. I don't know names. I don't know straightening. Okay. On my address. Do you know have you ever heard the name, Phil spector? No real really, give me some context, we tell you all about him. Okay. Them right. Boom done. Okay. Murder over what I will say is Phil spector is one that literally. There are whole documentaries about there are made for TV movies. There are podcast like if you wanna know more about it. There's so much more about it than what I'm going to gloss over remember guys. This is a casual casual we we're here to tickle your fancy, essentially, I'm really just supposed to spark this for you, my friend for you, my friend listener is a and then you look into it. All right murdered him. 'cause there is okay. There's an HBO movie that I wish I had like watch watched that. I'm definitely going to watch because it's Al Pacino. Oh, yes. Phil Spector's crazy and Pacino's crazy. So you put those two together a great movie crazy. Yeah. So that's HBO. If you have an HBO log in whether it's yours or someone else's all right Phyllis born in the Bronx. He his dad. His dad committed suicide when he was a kid which differently like impacted the family he has been musical his whole life. And he kinda started his musical career of sorts in nineteen fifty eight. Okay. He was the co founder of the teddy bears was the name of the group. So he like I learned a lot about how much influence he had on like old school, but will get to it. Okay. So he had a number one hit as this like teenage young kid this. The name was to know him celeb- him in nineteen sixty he co founded fills records it was him. And another dude I'm going to guess, the guy's name was Phil. But I don't know that to be fact, and that's at the age of twenty one a while. So on tire he was the youngest of US label owner at that point. Wow now, but you got like Justin Bieber owning records. What he's like seventeen. But who knows? But at the time because he wasn't like star. He had had a number one wreck Belichick's like what do you call? It's not peddling that'll but like knows the grindstone just like making it happen. And he's just like in the influence of music kind of immediately. So he gets a hooked up with this group. The have you heard of the Ron that's so the renter like back Madeo like the raw nuts the should trails. The like Darlene love, it's all the like do up girl group Luca. Yeah. So he's like recording a bunch of them. He's producing a lot of them. He's right. He's like a signing a bunch of them to his record labels over the next several years. He co writes, all these like major hit songs, and he's like signing. All these people he preaches records for Ron the crystals later in his career, John Lennon, George Harrison. Wow. And we'll get to like his connection with the Beatles. Okay. He often employed. What was known later as the wrecking crew. So that's an in house band that was like backing track to a bunch of major hits the big thing with him is. So he helped write like you've lost that love and feeling by the righteous brothers too long winding road for the Beatles. My sweet Lord by George Harrison. So the thing with specter is he was strongly influenced by Wagner who is a classical composer who Hitler loved. Okay. There's a lot of ties to like 'cause there's it's a big theatrical sound, and he was really drawn to he was the son of a Jewish immigrant too. So there's always there's this like there's a great urban design episode where this guy gets really mad Larry who's Jewish for liking Wagner. But so it influenced like his style of music. He he not even debatably. He revolution. Is the sound of rock and roll and pop music in the before sixties and sixties like very influential in his full that you can use the studio as an instrument was like never heard of that you had guitars, drums and singers. And the band was the sound and that it was that the producer is a musical entity and can have major influence over the sound of song a record, and he was really controlling and the heated not put out songs if he didn't feel Ainley perfect about it. You put out records if he didn't. So sometimes it costs certain artists major songs that were huge hits. Because he just like put his foot down was like no someone else in. Well. It was super popular. He started his relationship with. Ronnie bennett. I think is they ended up getting married at some point. But he's like twenty four he's super young. She's really young. She's like twenty ish and he's married at the time. She doesn't know he's Mary own and he's just like wooing her and like. Being. Very overbearing and like not physically abusive than like emotionally abusive and very controlling of her career. Like her kid sign thrown at says, she's the lead singer of the Ron ads they were signed to the dick Clark tour, and he makes up some reason why she can't they got replace. Let her cousin was like the replacement of like this major recording band on do or wanted to go. Wow. Then they the Ron it's open for the Beatles. Like, there's get this during the same fears, the Beatles at one point and John Lennon really likes Ronnie, and Phil is kind of seeing this and at the time like nothing more than like flirting and kissing Atma to fill and Ronnie but Phil's watching this take place between like, John and her stayed up all night talking. And she told you like she kinda pump the brakes on John was like, I really like, Phil. I'm dating Phil turn down online. And. Yeah. And then. At some point the Beatles are flying in a private jet to America to start their first leg of the first US tour like fame happening. Yeah. And they invite the run to fly with them of shit 'cause they're in London like they need like they get invited to go and fill is like, no, you guys can't go. I already bought your plane tickets, you're going on this other. Like, he just like, yeah. Doesn't want them on the plane with them pumps the brakes, and then famously the photos of the Beatles coming off the plane, Phil Spector's with them Phil took the filter. No, oh, what a dick whole. Yeah. So he's you know, any more color while he has a wife. He has a wife Ronnie, eventually figures it out she's talking to Darlene, Darlene. I love darling love like she. She's the famous background singer that you don't really know much. Like there's a documentary twenty feet from start on. It's all about backup singers to great document. They wanna Cammy award. She does like there's some famous Christmas song she's done. She ended up becoming kind of famous in her own, right. But she's like friends with Ronnie and talking to Ron and they're both just like young gals and Ronnie make some comment to her where the darlings like. Oh, honey. He's married. Oh. And she and that's how she found out. And how long have been going on a while like the I don't know put a while. Yeah. But then again, I'm kind of missing some of those gap years eventually, obviously, he divorces other woman any Mary's because she ends up being Ronnie spector. Oh, he's had a couple marriages. So that didn't last forever. But anyway, so there's this whole like he's this huge part of like, huge part of the music scene. And he's kind of a Kook he starts losing his hair really young like in his early twenties and Ronnie's like it's no big deal. But he is quite sensitive about it. So then so he's super famous, and this is all like sixties and before so in the seventies. He kinda start. It's becoming really reclusive. And he's just kind of like I'll tour peeing in jars reclusive, or is she maybe I don't. I don't think he's got like long nails total weird. But what they're saying. Like one of the most what they kinda think spurred this is that in nineteen seventy four. He was seriously injured thrown through the windshield of his car crash in Hollywood he was almost killed. So the police officer like when they got to him. They were going to detect are what do you call it? They were going to declare him dead. They felt a very faint heartbeat. Yeah. So he ends up going to UCLA medical center. They bring him back, but he has serious head injuries several hours several hours of surgery three hundred stitches to his face more than four hundred to the back of his head cheese. The so then they're saying that's part of why he started like he's known for these ridiculous wigs. Oh, if you Google him ridiculous inex-, would you say his attire Lambley int too or just he's just kinda this like over the top? Yeah. And he's like this petite little guy. He's like I hate to. I hate to say he's like this person because everyone's gonna have a really hard time with me. There's a. Like prince. Super petite Andress change like that. Okay. Yeah. Totally different click. Yeah. Yeah. But like lived in his own innocent on his own player. Okay. So he's just kind of live, and like he's still kind of a part of the music industry's still kinda not he researched resurfaces every so often, but he really resurfaces in two thousand three okay on February third two thousand three actress, Lana Clarkson who kind of like a like a B actress she's been in a bunch of TV shows. She I think her first role was in should have one line in fast times to reach Mont high the movies. He's just kind of been in the industry for a long time. Yeah. She's found dead. Oh, no. In the foyer of his major castle mansion. Yeah. In Alhambra, California. So the her body was found slumped in a chair with a single gunshot wound to her mouth and her teeth or broken and scattered all. The carbos how it's described someone put a gun in her mouth. Yeah. Like shot shot in the mouth. Phil spector is saying that it was. And he kept saying it accidentally suicide. I don't quite ever really know what that means. He also was quoted as saying that she kissed the gun. K-? He's there. He was there. He was there the emergency. Call comes from Spector's home. But it wasn't made by Phil spector. It was made by the limo driver. Okay. So spector was quoted I think he heard the gunshot and inspector was seen coming out the back door with a gun in his hand and said to the driver, I think I've killed someone. Oh shit. Okay. Looks kinda bad. Yeah. They never found his fingerprints on the gun. But he's holding the gun. Oh, he wipe down. Yeah. Got it. But there's an witness saying what is the gun when you fire gun gunshot residue touring. I don't know. Maybe not at the time. You could test for it. Yeah. So according to the prosecution, so he goes to trial. Spectator had previously pulled a gun on four different women. Oh in each case he'd been drinking and he was romantically. Interested in them and grew angry when they turned down. It's really hard. When people tell you know, you know, gosh. That's awful. So they alleged that on occasion, he pointed a gun to prevent them from walking out. The prosecution argued that testimony of the other women was important in demonstrated a common plan scheme that there's like a pattern here with because that's one of the things you want wanna bring this into the trial, and the judge has to say, that's admissible. So it was a win for them to be able to talk about that. Yeah. His gun at the current 'have. I believe so okay. The defense is his defense. They sought to prevent the women from being able to provide that testimony the law, generally forbids, the introduction of evidence showing defendants previous transgressions normally not talk about stuff like that. But the judge ruled the testimony can be used to show lack of an accident or mistake because they're saying it was accident or mistake. We've got this short, Sean. So at the center of all this is that there's this show for who's not as normal show show for it was like a standing guy. Did on the night of the debt the night of the death that he's like he never changed his story. He's just kind of this unfloppable witness the tried to bring in like that. There was a language barrier Brazilian, but the guy's like, Nope. I drove mall around the dude got wasted. And I can tell you all the drinks. He had all these places. He drank navy grog, which is one hundred fifty proof to Keila growth, and he was sharing the evening with these other two gals. He ended up at the house of blues, which is where he met. So he'd never met like Lana Clark in him Clarkson didn't know each other. They met at house blue he's already three sheets to the wind. He comes in. I feel like she works there. So she was the guard like VIP area. And I she's kinda like this dues weird for she thought. He was a woman. Oh because. Okay. So he's got these big giant wigs? And. Yeah. Teat the head this kind of flamboyant clothing, then she gets corrected by management, and they go you treat him like old dudes loaded, and he's a big name. Yeah. So then she kinda starts being like, well, maybe he could do something. So she agrees to go back to his house for a nightcap. Oh, so they go through the first trial, and it ends with like a mistrial or a the these guilty. Not guilty. Just now have to have another trial. So the first one they went his defense team went to town on her character Onno, which was left people like it was in very poor taste, and then in the second one, and there was much like physical evidence he stuff like came up in the first one in the second one it really all kinda failed to the witness the witness and stuff like that. He was getting all bent shape because he was like I worked with. Like Sonny Bono and share and the Beatles and the rolling. He's like really mad that all these famous people aren't coming to his like literally, no one is coming to his side. Yeah. It's kind of like. Weirdo. Bring guns out on people. Everyone's just kinda like mum about it. He's appealed it, basically, he's you know, to to sum it all up he was found guilty and he's in jail. Wow. That's. Yeah. I mean, you see that pattern EC esscalation in jail was telling him. No like it's on like he was just kinda getting away with stuff. Yeah. When people were telling him now, and they just happened to get away with their lives. Yeah. And this was one instance where he's like super drunk, which he had been in the previous ones and just went VAR. What was your? Why? Oh. Realis-? No, we had pop rocks cosmos, and he was a pop rock. That's good. I like that. I'm not mad about that. Okay. I'm gonna tell you about Thomas blood. Yeah. That name. I was like here we go. He we go. All right. Okay. So Thomas blood was born in county Clare in the kingdom of Ireland in sixteen eighteen. I want to tell them. See our oldest ship, and how many are like within the last thirty years. I I they're just so interesting, and I don't ever hear these unpack cath, they just tickle me. And I wanna be tickled. No, no. I am anyone who's listening. I do not wanna be tickled you, and I have more times than I would think is reasonable conversations about not liking tickling. If you haven't seen the documentary tickled, I don't want to that's how much I don't like tickle. It's in the story. The story is insane. Not just about to take Lee is just like the tip of the iceberg of the feather. All right. I got through the first since again so back into my story. Thomas is the son of a successful land owning blacksmith whose of English descent and his grandfather is a member of parliament, his family's very well respected, and they are pretty well off, and he goes to school in England and at the age of twenty he marries a Maria Holcroft, and they returned to Ireland. And of course, a war breaks out. Like, they always do. And and Thomas returns to England help fight in the first English civil war in sixteen forty two. He fights with the royalist forces who are led by king. Charles the first as the war continues Thomas sees that his side is going to lose. So he liked I should go fight for the other side. And he becomes a Lieutenant in all of our chrome wells round heads. Interesting round heads around heads. He is given the task of stealing royalist supplies, which is which is what he does. But I who takes a portion of the supplies from self K, and then gives the rest to his superiors to the royalists are like loyal to the crown. And then there's the usurp is so we can kind of see like even right now. He's kinda wheeling and dealing. He don't have no loyalties. Yeah. He's all about the Thomas all about that Chaddha. His name's Thomas. Right. Yes. Listen, I was like. In sixteen. Fifty three Thomas side wins in Cromwell awards land grants as payment for his services in points in the Justice of the peace. But then king Jarl king. Charles the second takes power in Thomas's life. Oh snaps opera trade you'll daddy. And I gotta get outta here. So he heads back to Ireland with his family and then king Charles the second passes the act of settlement in sixteen sixty two which starts taking away everyone's land grants. Okay. And which means Thomas is getting screwed real hard. Because all of his land is taken away from what I was reading you get kind of like, a stipend, a yearly stipend for the land the UM. Okay. So he he essentially goes bankrupt. So Thomas starts to reunite the old round head military crew in order to stand up against the king. In. So Thomas buddy start hatching a plan to storm the Dublin castle dude take over the government in kid net. Are you ready for this James Butler who was the first Duke of or Monday and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for ransom? All right. So he's he's shooting for the top. Yeah. Gonna take the big boy down, but the night before the attack their plan it stopped in Thomas escapes capture by hiding in the mountains with some of his other buddies. He eventually escapes to Holland, unfortunately, not all of his buddies get away and some are even executed. So Thomas is super heated about all this. And he's like I'm coming for you James Butler, first Duke of Morad, Lieutenant of Ireland whatever you are. Yeah. And so Thomas is in Holland now. And he's making friends he makes friends with an Admiral day route ear who's also against the English in a appoints Thomas to the Scottish pinch land rising of sixteen sixty six during this time Thomas also becomes friends with a wealthy man named George Valeri. Who's the second Duke of Buckingham? So he's making ends in high place. Not probably refers to these as his holidays. Oh my God. How long have you been holding it in? I'm proud of you. Thank you. Jackie. Right. So in sixteen seventy despite his status as a wanted, man. Yeah. Thomas returns to England, and he starts going by the name AOL off. And he starts practicing as a doctor this pretend Dr business back in the day. Leeann today just open your throat will he was gonna pretend after you talking about Dr. Fucker you prefer. Open your mouth. Oh, no. Oh, no, no. I'm sorry. You know at the time I said. This is a drinking podcast. I'm sorry. Okay. So he's practicing doctor Eastland. He shouldn't be he's not a doctor. He's a doctor back, then they were kind of doctors. Yeah. Yeah. You go to school a little bit. Yeah. So let's talk about James Butler. What's his face? Oh, the long the long so James's in England. Living at cleared in house in Thomas is still all about getting back at him for Kelly's within. Yeah. A little a little obsessed. So Thomas starts watching James movements. And he's yeah. That's more than a little obsessed with them. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'll give you. Yes. Yes. She's affected. What else? There's no be oh back then like what else is on strangers. He's getting bored being doctor. So he's watching James, and he sees James usually gets back to his house pretty late at night and only a few guards with him. So on the night of December, sixth sixteen seventy Thomas and somebody's attack Jeeves, and they drag him out of his coach, and they time up in the secure him onto the saddle of one of their horses who red dead redemption side. Yeah. And the plan was to take him through Piccadilly and hanging up at Tibert with a note pinned to him explaining why they captured and murdered him old school, but one of James's servants chases after them in. He successively successfully gets James off the horse, dude. Getting a Christmas bonus. You get some money. And Thomas in his friends, just like piece. Okay. Yeah. James has no square dick jeans has no idea who his captors were in who is behind the whole now, he's just freaked out just fade out. So he puts on a reward for any information on the would be as asan's. So James, the son Thomas Butler is furious about the whole attempted murder thing. So it goes to the king is like yo I think the Duke of Buckingham was behind all this, which is one of Thomas's friends from the holiday. And he's like, I think he's behind the whole thing. And if my father is skilled, I'm going to shoot the Duke. Oh, so our main man Thomas is keeping a low profile for the next six months, or so it seems because during this time he's actually coming up with a plan to steal the crown jewels a high high. Yeah. So in April of sixteen seventy one he visits the tower of London dressed as a parson of like, a clear human nice person as I got a person a parson any hires a sex worker to play the part of his wife. As visitors start to leave for the night Thomases. A pretend wife starts faking stomach cramps inserts making a big show of just like oh me. Oh, and she begs the newly appointed master of the jewel house, who's seventy seven year old Talbott L Edwards to go. Get her spirits for the pain in this old man, the drools, that's how I imagine. I don't know. But Talbott's room is really close to where the jewels or kept. So tell it's wife is like yelling come upstairs to our place lay down and rest, and recover. And so they do and the hang out for a little bit. And then they've actually leave and they think the couple over the next couple days Thomas goes back to the tower to visit Talbot and his wife, and he gives his wife four pairs of white gloves as think you gift. And Thomas starts to become very close with a couple and even offering con. Yes. And even offers to have his make believe nephew Mary Talbot's daughter telling tell that his nephew like the ultimate catnip in those days. I got this relative you can marry her family arranged marriage and welcome give you three cows Anna person, telling tell that his nephew like himself is very rich. And so the marriage would bring Talbot and his family and income of several hundred pounds. So then on may ninth. So it's only been like a month right now. Tom friends fast, friends, very chummy Thomas his fake, nephew and two of his friends come over for dinner with Talbot and his wife hired some fake nephew or might be part of his crew. Okay. So the go over the plan is to have the fig nephew in the daughter meet and they're having dinner. So while they're waiting for dinner. To be ready. Thomas convinces Talbot to show all of them the jewels. So they leave Talbot's home in Martin tower, which is above the basement where the jewels are kept behind metal grill. Like above. Now. They're walking down the stairs going down. Yeah. It's after hours, no one else's. There would tell didn't know if that Thomas's friends were carrying fake canes, and they were concealing thin swords and daggers inside in inside the canes yet, that's crazy. And they also had like pistols on the but the canes. Okay. So the enter the jewel house and one of Thomas's posse stands guard at the door, while the others go inside once inside they throw a cloak over Talbot, and they hit him with a mallet, and they get into the ground, and they time up and the gag him. And then they stab him to subdue him not like the lethal, but just kind of like to just tied up. He's seventy seven Talbot. So the men then remove the middle grill. That's like it's like, you know. Yeah. No. No. Okay. So they're taking the bars down in. They get access to the jewels. And Thomas uses a mallet to flatten Saint Edwards crown. Ooh. Be. It's like this big like an act of defiance like carried out carry it out 'cause he can't hide under cloak. So imagine, you know, those old school thing with body. Yeah. He mallets it down, essentially flat. And he puts his cloak Thomas is brother-in-law hunt files a sceptre with the cross into two pieces in order to hide it in his bag. Okay. So then one of the other men peer a stuff the stuffs the sovereign's orb down his pants. Oh. It's funny can do this. We're down. I swear I'm an adult. Okay. All the while tell is struggling against his ropes in making lots of noise 'cause they stabbed him. And he's in his robes, and he's like just like, what are you doing this? My job. Trey. Yeah. Friends just tied up. Our children's still getting married or like what's going on with kind of spurred flight earlier. So there are several different versions of what happens next one account says the Talbot is struggling so much that some guards here him, and they come up to see what's going on another popular story, which I don't believe is that Talbot. Son is just wife is just magically coming home for military service, and he comes upon the heist wife. Convenient white hero the noises any goes up to the drill houses. See what's going on? When he gets to the door wife comes across one of the guards from the the heist group in the sky as I gai-, we got company we gotta like rap is up Kuku. At the same moment. Tell the gets his gag off in Neil's treason murder. The crown is stolen. That's believable. Yeah. I think that part. He's definitely yelling. So Thomas in his crew run for it. And they go towards some horses that they have waiting for them near Saint Catherine's gate, but as they are running they dropped the sceptre and start shooting at the guards chasing them, and they wound one of them. They're running along the tower and they start yelling. This is funny. So the running and the gargling at them, and then I think they round a corner something 'cause then they start yelling like, oh, they without with whole. We gotta catch them. Here. We go guys and these are tricking Easter running with the guards looking for themselves. They're dressed up this movie. I don't know this story. They're all great stories. Stop remaking Disney movie. God. Okay. So they get confused in like within the guards in this guy captain Beckman joins the chase. And he's like, no you you're the. Guys were trying to chase. What no no no amount to you. So Thomas shoots at Catherine Beckmann, but misses him and Beckman actually catches Thomas right now. So during the chase Thomas accidentally drops the crown in. So that was recovered, and so is the globe in the orb. Although some of the stones were missing. While BT about well being taken away Thomas yells. It was a galleon attempt. However, unsuccessful it was for a crown and some of his crew members were also captured, but they were not punished. So Thomas is captured in the they're trying to interrogate him. But all he keeps saying is all answer to none. But the king himself. Oh, so he's taken to the palace and chain and brought to king Charles the second prince Rupert and others king. Charles Thomas, would if I should give you your life and Thomas replies. I would endeavor to deserve it. Sire? Thomas also tells the king how after seeing the jewel that he believes that they are not worth the hundred thousand pounds that they are valued out that they are only six thousand pounds. So he's kind of like throwing insults at the KEA. Thomas also reveal. Thomas also reveals that he actually wants tried to kill the king while he was bathing in teams like that river. Yeah. But once Thomas saw the king he decided not to kill him because he was so in awe the majesty. So just a spinner of word. Yeah. King Charles is so tickled by his answer and his attempt to steal the jewels that he pardons Thomas. He also gives Thomas land in Ireland worth five hundred pounds a year, which is a one hundred fifteen thousand dollars per year charming gets you everything everything he just spun around and. Number to me. He's devaluing everything over. So he got five hundred pounds per year for this plenary in Ireland, which is crazy because Talbot's family the man who guarded yachting life was awarded less than three hundred pounds. So like sixty eight thousand dollars once by the king, which nobody. But the never fully paid that to tell the in his family, but Talbott was able to return to guarding the jewels. And. No, that's someone else's job. But so he's still reading gills, and he would tell all the visitors about the time. It was taken hostage. I'm irritated. He's owed high. Verda trees the crown. So Thomas becomes irregular at around London any makes frequent appearances at court where he's employed to advocate in the claims of suitors to the crown in sixteen seventy nine Thomas gets into a fight with his old friend the Duke of Buckingham because he had bad mouth the duke's character. So the Duke sues Thomas for ten thousand pounds and Thomas is like, I'm not they've got different liable laws over there do that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Slander. Yeah. Like different than America. Even back, then it was a little harsher to feel like here. I don't remember which way it goes. I feel like. Companies people can say that what you said hurt me and have more standing than they do in the US. I feel like okay. That's I'm talking. I'm asked. Conviction. Okay. So do this doing Thomas Thomas was like, I'm not paying you. And so we get sent to jail for a little bit in on July of sixteen eighty. He makes bail any never pays the Duke because like a month or two later in August on August twenty second Thomas falls into a coma. And he dies on August twenty fourth just randomly. And his body is buried in the church yard of Saint Margaret's church. But it is believed that his body was zoomed by thirties for confirmation because of his reputation a lot of people trickster hunt. That might have they thought he had fake. I would believe it in a funeral to avoid paying his debt to Buckingham, dude. Yeah. And ever since then no one has tried to steal the jewels. Till now till no, no, I told you about this on our tell our listeners because it's great. There is a wonderful story about the greatest feather hike though. Yeah. Hike heist. Yes. Yes. Victor is mine felt right? Say that word feather heists. Other. It's all true. But lightweight back. It's like you'll find it Google. There's a really great podcast. I don't remember who did it. But it is so wonderful. That's a fascinating tale. Yeah. Just it. It's charming in its nerdiness. Yeah. We listen to that on the way up to Portland, right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Scott told me about it. It was good. Yeah. Well, that was my story. That is good good. Yeah. Do you wanna know what Mataya ass-? What's your time? Nothing april. There's no murder only attempt. Could be like maybe I missed it in that no murder. Nice job. Nice job. Thank you guys. This has been our April Fool's episode. We hope you we'll be didn't make these cocktails. But if you wanted to play tricks on someone you do it as a trick. Yeah. We we ended up making a different cocktail through. I'm surprised these don't this isn't like a thing that you get on, April Fools. No. We just did a bar. That's just like a kitschy. Will they probably can't find pop rocks? Yeah. You could on some Bill the measure being bar like people would order for the novelty. No one likes it. But people like me like we just we love Nickelodeon and child. Yeah. Slime cocktail in Portland that definitely would go people would get that cover. It is the. Yeah. Yeah. Don't do it. Are you guys? It's been another week as always send us little diem in late like soups Huggies. Yeah. Thank you all for listening. And we'll catch you next murder Monday. Tuning into this week's episode of killer cocktails as always on her talentless. Jackie. Andrea be sure to check out our instrument at the cocktails podcast or stop stuff. Our website kill cocktails podcast dot com for up to date information, photos, contests and more. Our logos. Created by Michelle firm whose amazing art shell from designed dot com. Our music was created by Nikolai Hiwa, and we'll be back next week on hashtag Mondays.
Amy Koppelman: 11/20/18
"Hey, everybody. So today's episode of the show has aired before it's the episode of my wife, Amy, and I have to say my wife, Amy compliment, who's a novelist and screenwriter and of all the episodes I've ever done. This is the one that engenders. The most intense responses, the letters I've gotten thanking Amy for what she says for her openness for the way in which she describes finding reasons to press on finding reasons to live and work, and I feel like this time of year is the perfect time of year to receive this message. So putting it up. I hope you dig it feel free to write in any kind of response. You may have and happy thanksgiving. Is the moment. I'm Brian Koppelman. Thanks for listening. I'm so excited by guess today. The author of three incredible books a mouthful of air. I smile back and hesitation wounds, which is coming out in November on overlook press. She also adapted along with grinding partner page Dylan are novel is mile back. I wrote the screenplay for the movie and stars, Sarah Silverman. Josh Charles Thomas Adagi. She's also the mother of my two favorite children in the world, my children, and she's my wife Amy compliment, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Well, listen, this is I'm so psyched to do this on because here, here's the thing. So much of the show is about people struggling to become a writer or struggling to become the best version of themselves. And I've watched for years. I mean, I know he's we were kids. But I've watched you fight for your. Creative voice and fight for that creative voice to be heard. And I wonder why an how becoming a writer became so important to you. And the ways in which you think writing has issue. Well, I've never actually thought about it writing. In terms of having a creative voice. I just was trying to an I'm still trying to I guess figure out the thoughts in my head. So I just write them down. Sometimes it's just by writing through my fears would have been reading through the fears. Well, like when I'm writing I just will ride in right? I mean might sound pretentious like I guess that's stream of consciousness like just ride in writing writing. Right. Which is why it's always very disappointing to have such short novels, but I'll just write an right? And then I'll get to a scene in that scene. I'll realize what I've been trying to write to. And then I go back, and I look at all the, you know. Hundreds of thousands of words that I've written over the years. And it's all there. I mean, Sommese how powerful the subconscious because I can see the dots. I mean, there's a lot of fat in between them, and it wasn't until after I finished a mouthful of air that I realized I was writing through the fear. If you know what if I didn't get the help that I needed end your passion. You find the theme using that book, you found the theme the personal theme or your reason at the end. Yeah. And I was saying that that's why I think that I wrote to I mean, it sounds crazy to say to survive, but to figure out my thought so that I could so I could try to escape the depression or sadness that I've always had or had since I guess third grade avert, people misunderstand. And I want to hear about the depressions in third. I've heard people misunderstand or think that and I've seen you don't get annoyed very easily by responses to your work. But the one thing that I've seen drive you crazy is when people think that the work that the narrative itself as autobiographical because often it's not the narrative, it's by a graphical. It's the characters living out your sort of like nightmare version of the wrong road. Right. I mean, everything that I writes, very personal. But, but you know, I don't fuck anybody else's husband, and I don't kill babies. And you know, I try to always be home for the kids. I don't desert them. So those are the happy thing happening. Sorry, right. Those are the things that some of my characters deal. And that's what I mean. That in retrospect, I realize that I'm reading through the fear with ice melt back. I was writing to the fear of you know, what if I bust this all up this little tiny happy world that I worked so hard to have with you and the kids what if like, you know, what else do we in her it beside our I color and hair color from our parents, like what if I really am my father, and I just have it in me to destroy and I'm going to destroy the people I love, of course, I had no idea. That's what I was writing about till after and it wasn't until I really finished hesitation wounds. And I don't know maybe a year after finishing it that I realized that book was myself finally giving myself the permission to be okay. And like to love in spite of the fact. You know, that we're all gonna die like just just embrace it and to forgive myself. But I had no idea I was writing that. I thought I was reading about, you know, a middle aged woman who is trying to decide if she was going to adopt a child or not where which is a narrative, which is interesting because the the difference between personal and autobiographical is sometimes lost in there in nature of one reductive Lee give make short judgment in a reductive way. And I know you hate the word reductive in your grad school classes when people would use it. It was dismissive. But how can something really personal? And yet the narrative beets in it be have nothing to do with with the with the writer, and do you think that should be the? It always has to be personal in someway. I guess the writers that I like the most it has to be personal like there's just no way that they're not trying to get to carve down to the bone of it like to get to their pain somehow, and those are the books that I like to read like what like per Pedersen. I love this snow, as you know, this ner, we Jin writer per Petterson. He wrote a bunch of books, but the one that just kills me. Again, again is called a curse the river of time. And I think it was one of these it was still impossibly hard for me to finish hesitation wounds. 'cause I kept reading I curse the river of time and saying I can't be like a quarter as good as per Pedersen. And then Finally, I realized her Pederson was prepare sin. This was like the best that I could do. But there were certain moments where I looked at the book, and I thought well, like if I eat every page of the book, then maybe I'll be able to intern. Allies what he's doing actually tell him that once the only reading I so you whisper something to many lit up. I couldn't tell if you crazy then realize you were just a writer, but I think you told him you wanted to eat every page of that book. Right. And I think I would've except for right around. Then I read that tattoos at the Incan tattoos causes cancer. And I thought like, well if the in cantatas causes cancer, and I eat every page of this book. It's a lot. I think that's lying. So I forget what your regional question was. But I I guess who are the Reuters per person. Yeah. And you you'll have to be does it have to be personal. And I don't know Paul Bowles, the sheltering sky the movie goer Walker Percy. I mean Salinger I don't think you could get more personal than that. I never read any of the Salinger biographies or saw any of the movies about him. I just know him through his characters which I think is probably the only fair way to know a writer is through their characters 'cause that's all. That really matters. That's what they're giving. You a cer- characters. What his I don't know if he had a brother or a sister or anything about his history. But to me all those people are real, you know, Fanny's all of them are real. So I don't know if it's personal or autobiography, I guess I liked people to be honest. I wanna find like truth in the things that I read and the reason when I met her Pettersen because the part, you don't are are being nice, not telling us when I started like crying, and wiping my snot left my arm because I had made gotten a opportunity to make ice mile back into a movie, and because I've never really made any money from any of my novels in lucky to be married to you. And that you've been able to figure out how to make things that people are popular you're going to say say that. New. Verbal skills aren't important to a writer. Look. No, no, no. I gotta say I don't interrupt other than to say, no because I wouldn't become a writer. If it wasn't for you, your it was you who lit the path for me. Right. And I think every woman deserves fifty percent in a divorce. Good one hundred percent growth that happening. His product promote a man leading deserve. It's over this podcast studio slate. Horrible really unfair. Also never predicted it because twenty something years ago. There were no podcast was so internet. I mean who would have thought if I were served with divorce papers and walk out of here. I wouldn't put the podcast. I don't think maybe it'd be really popular would go viral plan seems flawed. When when you say that when you say the thing about being lucky, and you know, that that you make money from your your you don't make money as an office. I mean that is that is true. But you're the one who recognized a long time ago, the kind of life you, and I were supposed to live, and that was supposed to be a life where you know, the thing I always talk to people about which is figuring out the thing that they wanna do that makes them feel the most alive and the most like themselves. I mean, you did light the path for me and looked at me. And you're like you're supposed to be writing. And you're supposed to be doing this creative stuff and never would have happened. If you didn't very specifically sort of find, and then give me all the tools, I need to do it. So don't yourself. I do have an issue with that. With the fact that I've never made money. I think it's why actually still feel like a fraud. Like, I'm not really a writer, and actually I don't know if I told you this story, but when we went when I went to Toronto two weeks ago for the international film festival tiff. I know that's what it's called. Now. I got pulled aside by the security guards. 'cause I always get pulled aside. And I guess I have a very guilty nervous look on my face. And they said, well, you're here on business. And I said, yes, and they said what kind of business are you here for I said, I'm going to Toronto international film festival. And they said, well, why what you know, what why are you going to the Toronto international film festival, and I actually hesitated. And then I thought if you can't say now that you're never going to be able to say it incited a writer, and then like, you know, I felt like bells and whistles went off like. That's awesome. You fought for harder than anybody. I've ever met because you told me a story a long time ago like on our for the first or second day, we ever spent time together that that you you were used to write every day, and then a journal got stolen, and then you didn't write again for a long time as it is that right? Yes. I mean, my biggest my first real memory of writing was being I guess I was in third or fourth grade n I entered my first rating contest for the doors of the American revolution. And I was Amy Lynn Levin from New Jersey on I didn't realize there was no way Levin. From New Jersey was gonna win a little Jewish girl. The American revolution a little Jewish girl from New Jersey their prize that I was really so happy with the Xerox thing that said that I had just, you know, applied to be like I competed in the daughters of the American the real thing is that you wanted to using you recognize them then that you were interested in writing like writing. That was when I thought, oh, you know, I could be a writer, and then I remember many years later there was this kid, Danny? And I remember on the phone because when people spoke on the phone, he explained to me what Lucy in the sky with diamonds meant. And I thought oh my gosh. That's so cool. And I started thinking about words, and then he gave me coming poems. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. And then he never tried to kiss me on. He was working. Interesting. Why that beat of the story escaping? Also also did. Yeah, he never really sophisticated for eighth grade in New Jersey Lucy in this guy with Cummings. I think I want. I I started writing again after the diary and the door to the American revolution. And when it was just I think like nineteen ninety four and I had this blue typewriter. There was on seventy eighth in Amsterdam for a long time. There is odds while typewriter store, and you could still get your typewriter fixed as well. It's went out of business, and I had to just, you know, move into the at that time the twentieth century. Well, I guess typewriter to the twenty seventy two, but and so I started using a computer. But I remember when I first started writing my first reference of great work was still e e Cummings the thought that he didn't use capitals. I still thought at twenty one was very cool. Yesterday's Amy compliment, her new novel hesitation was today. We've back after quick word. This episode of the moments brought to you by Braintree code, easy mobile payments. Maybe you're working on the next Uber. Airbnb or get up then why not use the same simple payments vision that help them come with the are today. Braintree makes mobile payments, so fast, easy, NC. Listen to almost magical added to your appetite a few lines a coat, and you're instantly ready to accept Apple Pay Android, pay pay pal van mo- credit cards, even bitcoin. And if some other way to pay comes along. Report that two branches fast payouts, and continuous support mutual always be ready with your own your first dollar or your billion. Check it yourself. Visit Braintree payments dot com slash moment. Cuts Braintree payments dot com slash moment. So you don't use it as you were in third grade, you're writing, and you also third grade was the first recognized now you look back, and you're writing is that there was something some kind of depression floating around. Do you think these things are tied together the desire to write is to combat? Yes, I'm I'm sure that they're tied together. That's what I was originally trying to say to your original question was I never thought of rating as anything other than a way of figuring out what my thoughts where that I couldn't even identify that. I didn't know why was feeling the way that I was feeling and I didn't know that I was writing to try to figure that out. But I would just sit at that blue typewriter and type, and then I knew that I felt better. And I. I would think about what I was typing either just like quietly, listen to the voice in my head, whatever it was saying, and then I would just like transcribe it onto typewriter. And then I just kept doing that, you know for years and years and years, and until then I finished a mouthful of air, which was my first novel. Yup. Remember that this whole thing of writing felt almost dangerous to you like that it brought you this tremendous amount of joy or relief. But you would worry that somehow it was rebellious not not to mean that's our life, but rebellious somehow against what what was the life. You were supposed to be living. Well, I was raised in a very nineteen fifties kind of Catholic home life. Even though I grew up in the seventies eighties is a Jew in New Jersey. And my mother raised me to grow up and get married and have kids. And so when I married you I think, you know, that was the last moment of making them happy, my parents with my choices because writing than who you marry. Happy other than deciding which person to marry. Yeah. But I mean, I was ready twenty one and my parents have been married from the time. I was like fifteen a who was gonna marry me. But they couldn't give me away quickly enough. But. So being a writer wasn't something that was ever spoken about. That was very other other people are writers and other people are painters. I was supposed to be a political science major because then if you're political science major, you go to law school, and then if you go to law school you meet acute husband, and then you marry him like it was always the goal was always to get married and some part of you expect that for yourself. Yeah. I mean, I thought that that was what I was supposed to do. And I'm really glad that I did that. And I love being married to you. But you asked me about the date the bad part of being a writer. It just seems like it wasn't what I was supposed to be doing. I was supposed to be I guess starting to have kids. But the problem is once I married you and I was in a safe environment. And I knew that you loved me the weird thing that I still don't actually understand. That's when the depression set in so badly because I was able to actually exhale and that happened I guess in the beginning of nineteen ninety four. And then I started to get help. It sounds so silly now after Kirk obeying killed himself. And then I think I started writing just typing into my typewriter not writing writing until you know, in that summer, but we had a friend who had an older, brother. And I thought of this today for the first time in a long time. And I think my first writing was to him we would fax letters back and forth in he was much older, I guess very damaged person. But I didn't realize I mean, those weren't the words I would've used at the time. I just thought he understood me like I could send writing to him, but they would only be in the form of letters like deer his name. And you know, I'd be writing whatever it was about our Maurienne. You would write to him and his parents were holocaust survivors. Yes. And you were you were trying to help him figure much stuff out. Right. Death has always been of interest to me. I guess so sure he had holocaust survivor parents died when he was young. And so I guess I felt safe also talking. To him because he was another person who was image d- was damaged. And I think earlier today were talking you said something which we've talked about a bunch. But I mean, another thing when we got married you made a decision not to be self destructive. And so you didn't have an outlet which allowed the like. Yeah. Well, for many years our kids another so I don't feel uncomfortable saying this. I was very very believe by the time. I moved in with you. I mean, I wasn't satisfied till there was you know, blood all over the bathroom tiles. And then when I moved in with you, it was the first morning after moving in with you. And I went to take a garbage bag 'cause I was going to be very neat because it was your apartment, and I don't know. There was a voice in my head is at you can't do this like he loves you. And you can't do this. And so I never threw up again. But I didn't know how to eat an as a belief is very highly functioning. I went to an Ivy league school. I could drive. I wasn't scared of people. I wasn't scared of going out. I wore makeup employee drama hair. And then as soon as I stopped doing that which you would think would be the healthier move. That's when I got more, I guess sick. But I don't think of depression like sickness, but I guess that's the word for it. Would mean think of it as of course, it's a sickness, but it just still always, you know, that's the funny thing about depression. Is that even now I can understand it. I can understand the physiological parts of it. I can understand that. It's not my fault. But the nature of depression makes you hate yourself. So you keep thinking if I was just a little stronger, if I was just, you know, I mean, I have everything I could possibly want. I have a loving husband. I'm living in a safe place. And so, you know, you think what's your problem like fucking get over it. And you can try really really hard. But what I know. Now that I didn't know then was that it wasn't my fault. It is your fault. Once you don't get the help you need, and it is your fault. If you don't. Take medication, but it's not your fault for feeling like if you could just be stronger, you could overcome it because that is the nature of depression that it's this this hopelessness with self hatred. That says come on don't give into this. You're a wimp if you give into it. Yes. And you still sometimes even though you're sort of a big advocate for this. Your books have been given too. Many people have given your books to shrink since this finally explains who I am this explains the way feel your books. Absolutely. Celebrate people who are able to bash through it and live. But using you still party still doesn't wanna forgive yourself for being susceptible to depression. Yeah. I mean, I still can't really forgive myself for not breastfeeding Anna, which is what my first book came from was. I finally started taking antidepressants when Sam was like two, and I trial at our second. You know, everything changed just like, you know, all the cliches everything went from black and white to technicolor, and I could feel and I wasn't numb and the anxiety wasn't crippling. I think for the first year of SAM's life. I didn't see I think I had like two picks in my is keeping them open. Because I was scared. You know, the poster on the wall was gonna fall on him and kill him. And if he my fault, and then I went off antidepressant medication because they were ensure at the time, you know, what would go through the bloodstream to the child, and I spent all that time all those nine months thinking, I can't wait to take Zoloft again. I can't wait to take Zoloft again. I mean, I would look at the little jar of Zoloft, and I can't wait to take that again, and to feel okay again, and then I had her, and I started breastfeeding her, and I couldn't believe that. I couldn't be strong enough in my head to figure out how to keep breastfeeding her that I was going to have to stop s feeding her. Because I was so weak and then for a week or ten days. I'd impress feet. I didn't tell anybody until you. I didn't tell my psychiatrist. And then one day, I realized I was sitting on the bed, and I was breastfeeding her and I saw that as like about to hit a wall a million miles an hour. And I told you I remember I thought of the other day that I said when I took this can you please check under my tongue to make sure that I had actually taken it. Because even in those ten days, I didn't trust that. I wasn't could not swallow it because I just hated myself or not being strong enough to wanted kicked in you feel better again. But I still haven't forgiven myself reading breastfeeding her even though she's a sturdy person, you know, and I would see other mothers. And they'd be like, I breastfed my child for till he was four years old in teething. And I would know that's really good. But I would still feel bad. Like, I think like how long did you breastfeed her? You know moms do that. They're like. Oh, yeah. He's comparing and contrasting when did he walk? When did she in your books? Your books written with so much generosity, except you are merciless when it comes to gaggle 's of judgmental moms, they're kind of like the villains throughout certainly two and a half of your books. We and I include myself because I have been in many, giggles of moms moms are horrible. Moms are worse than like, you know, middle school elementary school girls. In fact, they get to the the like if you are really big bitch in middle school. All those tools really help as a mom, which is why I've always felt that you know on that. I wasn't better at figuring out how to make my kids. More popular by being a cooler mom because I've still always been kind of like a freaky. Mom, although everyone loves to center kids used to love to send their kids over to our house except for each time. I published a book what would happen when you were published publish book on my first book got. Published which has infanticide in it too wonderful review, nearly stopped ringing the second fuck when she leaves the kids, you know, people are really desperate for good childcare. So you know, they still send their kids over. To their kids. This theme in is in your books where characters worry about the judgment of others or their they don't like themselves because they know they shouldn't care about being judged by others. But they do care you run your books wrestle with that a lot. Why do you think that is? 'cause I wrestle with that. You know, I. On one hand. I don't care. You know? Like, there was this one girl like you. Remember her girl, you're talking about another woman in as like you middle aged woman. Good just became my mom because my mom who's seventy basically still says she's going with the girls to lunch like they're not girls. But anyway, they're they're actually old people, but north you can call the girls the girls again in your seventies. I'm getting together with the girls scare Goldman's line. Isn't it doesn't Gary go home and say, that's how you can encourage favored any seven year old woman is by being like you and the girl should come over to more. Yeah. I have I don't know if that's exactly his line because I've very bad retrieval mechanism. I blame it on this. But I'm sure it is middle age and this week. I realized exactly what it looks like like if I could draw a picture, it looks like when you go to an arcade. And there are those games. Like the thing. He comes down to get the toy the claw down to go until I like, it's fighting to get the. Almost gets the toy. And then like the little toy falls out of its before a real fun. There's this one woman. But she was more girl. You know, when we were younger, she was young too. And every time we went to a friend of your sisters in every time, we went to an event for your sisters. She would save me. Why are you wearing black? And you know, she was somebody who was always wearing you know, the particular in color of the season. And I mean, I wouldn't say to her like, why are you wearing black? And like, you know, why is your husband fucking the nurse? But like she would constantly say this to me, and I would constantly be like, oh, well, you know, I like black and try to think of an answer. And then I would leave really hating myself because I didn't even like the girl. So why would I care if she and I wanted to wear like, and so that duality I don't know why I wanna be accepted, but but every body has some conflict with wanting the people who don't understand them to understand them. But the older I get the one good thing about being in your forties. Is you start to care less about others opinions? Yeah. Because everybody who was so sure of what to wear and what to do. You know, you watch their lives, and you realize they didn't really know. No one really knows. You know, no one knows if the hand of fates gonna slap them, no one knows if their husbands gonna leave them they're gonna leave their husband if they're going to have a sick kid. You know? So in a way, those people are luckier because I remember I had a friend growing up and like she knew when she was going to get a manicure for the prom in like September. And I used to think it would be so great to be her and just to only think about that instead of walking around like in a deep funk all the time. Look, you know, your strength is the thing. That's always been the most inspiring to me because and it's why it's worth it to have this conversation, even if it's a very personal conversation because, you know, a your ability to turn yourself into this stuff, not only someone highly functioning, but someone who's thriving despite a lot of really difficult personal hardships. When you're young is kind of incr-. Credible because you see personnel hardships in his sin as you say that I kind of hardships. Did you have neither of your parents died? You had a car like, I it's like an immediate reflect of it on the other hand, you know, you've said many times that for instance, is mile back the movie you've talked about you've talked about that when you were writing Sarah's character, whose is incredibly self destructive world wind did not only self destructive. But a force of destruction in in to anyone who who loves her that a lot of what you were wondering about was the consequence of the possibility of inheriting that kind of behavior down through like genetic and behavioral chain from from your parents. Right. And I I know now, and I felt comfortable knowing that I am not gonna bus this all up, but what I was also trying to figure out less. You know, you can say you're sorry. You can hurt you can be a parent, and you can hurt your. Children and you can say you're sorry. You can be the best possible scenario where you come back in you, had the great grandparent. But you can't give your kids back their childhood, and you can't reverse the damage that you've done. But then what makes us what made you because one of the great really inspiring amazing things is when you decided you were going to do this. So you started typing and this episode is fraught to you by oswald's typewriters Zoll villa? That's. The sponsors obviously the show, but when you. No when you started typing, and then you decided you were from that into becoming a writer, you applied to grad school because people will say sometimes this question, I've asked a lot on this show and try to figure out right? The difference between delusion and talent or when someone wants to be a writer, and can they and although you all the raw materials, and when people read your books now, they're they're so polished and everybody remarks on your sentences and on the fact that you write in this incredibly the pros is elegant and simple and lockdown and squeeze tight and your books read like prose poems in a way. And that in the beginning, you really had no technique, right? He would say that. Right. I mean, I know now now now I can look for things like you were talking about more like forget the word you used a, but like, you know, writer Lee things. Now, I understand when I'm reading per Pedersen when he's doing something with a sentence. I understand how he's like, you know, bending that sentence how he's crafting that sentence. And that's what made it so hard for me to fitness hesitation. Because I would look at what he didn't be like. Wow. Like, I just couldn't believe that he was able to accomplish so much, you know, gained so much emotional death death death in you know, such a small simple pretty sentence. I I know that now. But when I first started writing, I was really only writing I don't know what I was thinking. I don't even know how I thought that there was even a remote chance that I could get into Columbia road. I thought it, but there's this little part of me. And I was thinking about this. When you're talking about deciding for you for me telling you to become a writer, and I do think this is true. I do think inside everybody's head. If you really listen close enough, you know who. You are in what you wanna be like you can hear it like sometimes it's whispering. Sometimes it's ladder. But I knew when I wasn't, you know, really busy with self-flagellation that I wanted to be a writer. I didn't know what that men are how good a writer. I could be once we went to the bottom line years and years ago, and I like four people that were really good song writers in. There was a fifth person. That was terrible. And I remember saying to you like, but no one tells the fifth person in how do you know on the fifth person? And you kept saying just keep writing here, not the fifth person. But what because you really had something to say. And you were so determined to find a way to say it. Well, I was more just a termined to live. I really wanted to kill myself very very badly, and you leave for work, and that's all I want. But you were so nice to me, and I'm used to lie in bed in the dark with shades. Joined think like close my as if only like these angels could come down and get me. So like I could die, but he could come home and not think it was his fault because I didn't want to ruin your life. Thank you. And I remember Kirk cobaine killed himself at a member you calling me in a member turning on the news. And there was at MTV VJ that guy Alan hunter, Mark Goodman market. I don't know any heat was talking about it. He was describing different things that Kirk obain. Did. I mean, I Nord the heroin at the time and all the other things when I watched the documentary now makes me feel very silly. And then I think you are twenty two years old. Of course, you romanticized suicide then, but I realized like I had the same kind of stomach pain. I wasn't functioning with leave for work. Are we get right in bed? It's been the whole day readying myself when you got home, I could smile and be like, hi, how was your day? And so I had been carrying around a card in my while at for a while, and I called the doctor, and that's when I started getting help and after seeing Dr and talking to her I guess, I knew that talking me feel better. So writing was like talking, but it wasn't until I decide. Wanted to have Sam our son that I really decided like, okay? Well, you know, there's no going back now. Like now, you're in it. So I think I continued to write just to help me stay in it. And I think that that's I think that's very important. I mean, I think some people guard in for that reason and some people knit or cook. You know, you need a reason to want to continue that's not fair to do to the kid, and I hope that I've not made him feel like he has a responsibility for my continuance. But the writing only became a byproduct of wanting to be to continue to be a good wife and mother, and so it was just like when I wasn't in therapy than I could right 'cause they're similar things in a certain point. And you know, you were a kid, and we were kids. I'm I think I was twenty five twenty one when we got married and. We're we have to be lucky that we made a choice when we're young to be truth with one another and being really being together as you were saying so that when you when you started really doing this, and you would share the work with me, and we would talk about it. Yes. It was there a -peutic to you. But beyond that, you did want to be you did feel like there was some value in what you were doing you wanted to learn to be really did want to find a way to get good at it. You didn't feel like I should publish this net. You're like I need to find a way to get really good at this thing because I love I love doing it. I think you did something to share your point of view. Well, I remember when you gave me Franny and Zoe, and I remember reading that book. And it was one of the first things that I was able to start to with Bill to read once I started reading again 'cause there were like, I don't know fifteen years that I didn't really read. It's I don't know how I got through high school in college. But already colony. I read it, and I didn't cheat. But I remember getting to the line where fanny says she's tired, and I remember it's that magic that happens. When you read an a writer is able to put into words, the feeling that your feeling and you're able to not feel lonely, and that's what I said to prepare sin when I met him because what saying earlier is when I co wrote the screenplay with my friend page, and we got to get made into a movie incident. Of course, I thought, you know, oh, like, maybe I could have a career as a screenwriter I could make money then. And then I'd be a real writer, and I started thinking and trying to write from the outside in you know, what are the beats of TV show. You know, what kind of plot points? Do you need an I don't right from that place. But I I guess part of me wishes. I did I think I'd be more popular assessable writer. I started thinking that way. And then I went and met per Pedersen and I saw him. And there were so many times that I felt so lonely, and so many different writers that made me know that I wasn't alone that when I looked at him. I thought like I can't betray that. Like, I can't betray what he's gives to me. I can't worry about being a screenwriter and successful. I just have to worry that like, even if this book has attained wombs only sells a couple thousand copies like all my other books, like maybe five hundred of those people that aren't related to me are close friends who bought the book, maybe it will mean something to them. And that's why I guess I wanted to get good at it. Because at least if I could get good at it than there was the hope that maybe I could touch somebody like I'd been touched by writers. That's I guess the reason I write for connection, which is a weird thing because you read when you're alone and per Pedersen was saying book is not alive unless somebody's reading it. So it's a weird thing to think that. You could feel less lonely in such an isolating endeavor as reading, but when I'm with characters like the people in hesitation wounds, Ivan very much with missing them. Because for so many years, we could spend the taste together. And they're safe. I'm not schizophrenic. I understand them. And they understand me and Franny understood me, and because of my bad retrieval mechanism. I can't think of the other characters, but I'm sure you could remind me of who they were sure. Like the characters in every man in Philip Roth American pastoral. Yeah. Like every man, I read Philip, Bruce every man, and I understood my father, and I understood it really almost everything that he did to me to my family to himself had nothing to do with me. I actually wrote this whole like letter to Philip Roth in a member calling you from outside the kids elementary school. And you saying like you really wanna send a letter like, oh, he's never going to get the letter. Anyway, it's like putting all my feelings in a glass bottle, and you know. Dropping it into the Hudson river, but then he wrote back and so that was exciting. That was incredible. I remember seeing that the little envelope open. He did. Parents used to do with college acceptances you opened it on the elevator. But you had a very big smile when you came in short. If if this book brought you solace. I'm glad or something like that. And it did. Well, yeah. And and I guess also for me writing is the art form will music, but writing the art form that I mean sounds like so like pretentious when you say, but gives me the most faith in you, Mandy, its beauty to me. I remember reading this book world if yesterday the Stephen swag book. I can't how could I not remote? And I guess in the Anna, I'm gonna get this all wrong, but I guess before in between world, we're one in World War Two. There was this group of people, and they really thought like art would be the salvation for you manage, and you know, that peace could be achieved through the beauty of art. I guess art or flowers or the look in a little kids is those are the things that I hold onto. I I used to have like when I wasn't as good as I am now like in terms of not being sad. When I wasn't as not sad is when I wasn't as happy as I am now, I used to have these two. Thank you these fade to black moments. And I'd be like, you know, walking down the street with one of the kids that I think like, you know, if all everything just feed it to black right now that would be great because it'll be like a happy moment may be getting a candy bar at like the little after school pharmacy. But when I was in Toronto, somebody said to me like, you know, if you could speak to Laney that's the catcher in ice melt act, like what what would you tell her like, or what will you tell somebody who is very depressed like on recoup recovering alcoholic. She said to me. I have a kid like, what would you tell somebody? And I thought about it. And I, and I I need to all these interviews without crying. And I said I would just tell them to hold onto the ice cream cone, and she looked at me. And like, I realized that made no sense anybody that may which is not a unique experience for me. I said like, you know, I would say like think of the happiest moment that you could possibly think of an at. I know mine is which has to do with an ice cone. So we are sitting. This little fountain. Starbucks in. There is a Haagen-Dazs there. And I was sitting next to you. You're on my left. I was on the right of the fountain end we are watching the kids like, I don't know play with their skin cones or run around. Like, oh, you know, don't go too close to the curb you're gonna get hit by a car. And it was a nice day like not any particular beautiful day or something like that. It was just like a regular day. And I remember thinking like this is it like this is why we live like just to see for this kind of happiness, and I don't want it to fade to black on just gonna hold on to the next time. We get to go to high does. And I order a thought free extra small ice cream. But you know, so I don't get fat God forbid making fun of myself to try to not cry. Anyway, why do that's what I said to the woman? And I think writing for me has just been a means to an end of like. You know, connecting the dots of time between each moment of happiness in. I'm lucky because I get to see them all the time. And I do think that that's one thing that people who've had depression are had hard times that fall under any cost of occasion. I think that most of us have a keen appreciation just for like, you know, a very simple memory light like an ice cream cone or a slice of pizza or just holding the person you love hand at the movie theater, or you know, picking up the popcorn FU spilt it at the movie theater. But and I've been thinking a lot about divorce because we are middle aged so many people are having divorced. And I think for a lot of them. They just forgot like those little tiny moments. Don't mean anything like they can't hear it. They can't see it. So in a way, I feel very lucky because there's medicine so I don't have to be stuck. I can feel every feeling without. Feeling drowned by it, and I know what's important in each your books energy each year books has you know, the characters it seems like they have a chance to grab for this. And the third book hesitation wounds finally is a book that has hope in it. But always wrote thinking that the hope would be for the person who read the book like, you know, in the first book, you can take medicine in the second book like you could take medicine in the third book. And of course, I wasn't. I think I was just saying like, it's okay, you can be happy. Like, I was giving myself permission at the end when I look back. And of course, I finished the week Sam graduated high school, I think so you know, nothing like forty about that. But I wrote him for many years like I said that I do till I found the last moment of this book. And it's a moment where it's snowing, and there's this woman and she's with her child. The child has never seen snow before an the child's adopted in the child. Stick out your tongue and for years. I tried to make the book balance all on that moment. The moment where you decide are you going to stick out your tongue tastes, the snow or you can keep or not an I couldn't figure out how to mechanically make the whole book balance on that one moment. So it's going to the graveyard where this scene takes place because I needed more time, but the whole book for me, the whole like eight or nine years are however long it took me to write that book was all that moment of deciding if you're gonna stick out your tongue or not which sounds like so silly, like, of course, out your silly at all because you're talking about right to live or to love or to be in it like to be here to get to experience life until it's taken away from you. It's all just a matter of just sticking out your tongue today. We were running through the street. It was raining. Sam had come home from college. And I. Laughed at I said running through the rain with abandon laughing without fear. And he's like, let's that. And I realized that I was quoting myself. It just like worse than calling yourself like your own name. And that must be like, I don't know what book I put that in. But we were running through the read I was laughing without fear. And I thought that's fucking great. And I was happy to be me one of the things people. Who know you always talk about is your -bility to live in the present. And that you work so hard to do it and your characters in these books. It's like you try to point them. There are moments where they're pointed toward it and either they can or they can't get there. And when you think about an awful lot. But I do think mental illness or chemical imbalance or whatever the parent umbrella term is I think one of the most frustrating things is that you can see it. But you feel like you can't touch it. It's like there's two things. I mean, I'm not like an expert input in my experience to things that are so frustrating with depression one. You have no ability to modulate the volume or to know if the punch really had any impact it all is loud. And it all hurts and the other is you can see happiness, and you could want it. But there's like this. Gazi film around you, and you just can't get to it. So when you get the relief of being able to take medication and like, it lifts the film Karaj door or something. And you're able to touch the feelings that you're trying to that you that you know, that you wanna have that you're not able to get to it. I want that for all of my characters 'cause I like that for all people to be able to to get to where they can be who they wanna be and retrieve that what you're talking about is what happens in your books. Sometimes the Karger can't quite stay there in the way that you've found a way to stay there in in life. When you you plied to Columbia what three times? Yep. Grad school. You've got rejected twice. And then you got in. Yes. And you kept working and kept writing. And then when you got there. I remember it's true. It was a huge disappointment will sure problems. Although the there were great. Teachers are memories. But, but here's here's what I want to know when when you I thought you didn't talk about like when I when I was trying to get into Columbia. I was taking these continuing education classes at night. And I had no idea. How lucky I was that I was taking classes with Michael Cunningham who is the most beautiful writer and the most people always over use this word, but like generous teacher and so for a couple years, I would take these classes meet once a week or twice a week. And it would be me and somebody who was a plumber and a woman who is a secretary in an accountant, and people would write stuff everything was raw and sloppy. And the stuff was really moving like, I'd come home and be like, wow. This guy wrote about you know, it was real. And then I kept getting rejected from Columbia. I thinking, geez. Like the writers. They have Columbia must be like fucking believable. Because I mean, the continuing education writers were blowing my mind away when I finally got to Columbia and was in class it. It was that outside our thing that you know, I had as a little kid, and as a mom or always have where like I remember the first day because as you know, I always would say I'm quitting the first day of every class that I've taken since we've been married all the people were speaking this language that sounded foreign to me, but other saying was the Stasi are Tolstoy or Chekhov in. I hadn't heard these these words, but they sounded like so intimidating and scary to me, and they all wrote these perfect sentences like long sentences with commas no-one had a spelling mistake, and they would stay on with their shoulder shoulders back in like if you gave them comments, they would look at you. You know, they felt secure enough. Not to listen to your comments. And I didn't know any of those books at the time. And you know, people would say to me about my writing like, oh my God. You're such a cliche. No one's ever read that who's gonna ever wanna read that. And I would like go into the bathroom stall in cry. But. The thing that was disappointing about Colombia Wesley hill. This the stories that most of those people told were very boring like there are only so many bass, you know, coming out bass fishing stories that one person can read an I also remember the other thing that was very disappointing about Colombia in this. I didn't understand I still don't understand it as we would read these things that were really amazing like we Jesus son or I was just telling somebody the other day somebody said, well, you know, grace paley is not really a real writer because she's never written a novel like you like to fuck and sentences together to a paragraph like there's good as grace paley, and then we can talk. He happened to also be the bass fishing story guy. So people really lewd in odd from his piece. So he felt very good saying this, but the time how did you? So it's funny now when you look tell the story right at the time, this is what what's true, right because at a certain. When you decided you weren't allowed to write when you were young, right? Because it was some kind of betrayal of what was expected of you. Right. And if you started today, you are bad person you'd have to tell the truth. And if you told the truth about your family, you were betraying something right wrestle. You didn't read for a long time. Even though that brought you the greatest solace. I didn't read since eighth grade resigned. Depressed you found your way into university of Pennsylvania, political sign major all this stuff. And you weren't doing the stuff that was interesting to you. Right. But as a result of that you got to grad school, and you didn't share the language with them. I never said reductive thirty go, and you didn't know the books. And in fact, you didn't have any grasp of grammar. No. And so how did you keep at it? Because you know, how did you know? I don't know. Because it's the craziest thing I mean, like, I mean, you know, a mouthful of air. There was no agent in New York City. I mean, I was rejected by every single agent. Really in New York City important to note, which is one you were out of that class of people at Columbia. You were the first person published. I don't know. Maybe there was one other person in that class published right away Torrey was in that class. And he was amazing. And you always said he was credible. He was a great. And he was the only person who wrote shit that pop to his job. He knows. Tories famous writer, but he was the only other person out this Kennedy fried chicken story and even with my bad memory. I remember it. I remember going like well, wow. I mean that was even better than the people in the continuing education. Different level of writing. Right. So he was in your class got success. But you were you were somehow like you kept going the book seemed impossible to you at first you didn't you? I mean, even to approach reading the Russian stuff. Like there was so much American stuff that that to even get there. I remember in the beginning when you're at your first papers. Yeah. It seemed impossible to you. And you had to do it yourself. Like there was no I was working all the time. There was no one to help you and I don't I remember going to got rejected the second time. I got rejected member taking Sam I was gonna play like the little cute kit card. Also know that there was no one else to watch him. And I'm never going to continue education office in waiting outside for office hours for the head. Professor locked come. He was the head of the writing program, and he came and I finally met with him. And I sat down in San was like right next to me, very little on the stool, and he said, well, you know, I just want you to if somebody jumps out like an August. Like, even if it's like, August twenty fifth like all come to rain program. Like, if you wanna put me on a wait list, and he said, well, you know, if we wanted. To put you on the wait list. We would have put you on the wait list. And then I was like, oh, and I still apply again the next year. 'cause I don't know. It's a little rebellious person in me. I guess I'm going gonna get you to accept me. How do you know done because you do work on these books for like seven years? Right. You right. And you do write your books are incredibly tight. They're short as I said, there's not a word wasted. I can't find anything else to cut. I remember. There was one lesson that Michael Todd us, which was when you start rewriting the same sentences, and you're just writing them differently. But you're not writing them better. Like, that's when you know that you have to stop. So you're that harsher critic on yourself. But what is it that? Also makes you love to collect an almost relish when you get rejected by some big publish your book. Hesitation was coming out on a great publisher overlook press, a hallmark. Indie publishing company. But when I get into in bookstores this time, you're going to work bookstore hardcover book again 'cause my eyes mile doc, eighty one. That I was counting people passed on I smile back till two dollar eighty. Oh, I smile, but you know, you you were able to write the scripting at this movie mate. But. What is it? Anyway, I remember some of the some of the rejection letters, you got you would read them out loud and pin them on the wall and not in the way. There was something about them. They would say this is the most accurate depiction of depression. I've ever read this book is to even hesitate was this to true-to-life. This is this field to painful. What is it about that that gives you satisfaction? Do you think I guess I think that I did what I was supposed to do. You know, I was honest to those feelings than that person might not have wanted those feelings doesn't wanna print those feelings. But I know like I did my job the one I kept on the well for years is this too closely mirrors disappointments in life, and I never punching my arms into the air and going like, I did it because that's what I wanted to do. Right. You know, if they I never mind rejections, if they're fair, you know, if you want to say, this is too dark or too depressing. Like, that's fine. You'll take it. Yeah. What is it that allows you to keep dreaming because and not that's because Anna or Sammy your meat? I mean, you know, when I think about how is mile backup made into a movie as somebody who makes movies. It's almost unbelievable to me that you were able to do the thing that you did. And it is all about you somehow finding I guess this is my question is since you wear on the surface, this, it's insecurity. But this humility that I know he's genuine you're genuinely humble, but you know, you heard Sarah Silverman on the Howard Stern show. You didn't know, Sarah Silverman. I didn't know Sarah Silverman. And something about her voice made, you know, she could star in this movie about this very harrowing thing. What made you think that it was possible? Do you think and that you can do it? You could write them. Movie and that you could find a way to get her into the moving on hand. I say, I don't know. But I think really it's just like it's very simple like alive. So I might as well try like, none of it really matters. You know, if you try and you fail you get rejected like if you spent the majority of your he's been half your life fearing death, and then you finally going like, okay, I get that that's going to happen. But while I'm alive, I'm gonna make the most of it than like, you know, how what what she gonna say. No like, okay. I just wanted her to read the book, I knew from the tone of voice, I had never seen her comedy. I had never seen her TV show. I mean, I knew who she was because she's like every Jewish boys idol like they all like, oh, sorry Silverman. But that was the only manner which I knew her, and then I heard talking night. I thought you know, her heart's gonna understand my art. I wanted to be understood it's like when I finished my first book, and I. Get an agent I saw on page six where Joan Diddy in lived, and I just thought okay. Like, I'm not gonna get an agent, but I'm gonna drop my book off at her house. And maybe she'll write me back because I just wanna know like Maya Amaya real writer. I thought it's also like a gift to myself that I could drop something, you know, I finish something I could drop it. And that was probably the biggest accomplishment when she wrote back like dear Amy, you are a real writer, and you know, if you remember those things, and you don't remember the rejections than you look back in. It's like twenty something years later since nineteen ninety four and again, I applied for a Guggenheim award in again, I'll probably get rejected. But it doesn't matter because you know, in five years, I might get one. And then I won't remember the rejections. I'll just remember. The acceptance won't what was it like then. So you found a manager after your second book and the manager was able to get the book to Sarah Silverman. Even matter she told you that if you. You would say the if you wrote a script that didn't suck she'd be in it. Yeah. That was my bar. Just like had to not suck page often wrote the script Sarah gave you notes really great guidance. You then got to make the film with her. And then it got into Sundance Toronto and Deauville and all these other places, and it got distribution it's coming out across the country. What did it feel like to be on the film festival circuit with her because you've gone to these places with her and have been able to really, you know, in the way that the film world works. I mean, you you were legitimized cannot can you can you own that? Now, can you know, I told the story about, you know, telling the security guard, you mean, like, the passport of the the customs them guard to can you really can you own it that it's a real thing? Now, what did it feel like to be on the film festival sort able to really enjoy the film festival, especially the Toronto film festival because no matter what people think of the movie if they like it if they don't like it, if they think they've seen the story a million times before whatever they all really appreciate Sarah's performance. And so I think I was right. Like, I knew it in. Everybody told me, I was crazy. But I knew her heart would understand my heart. Did anyone watches the movie will understand your heart? And one thing I really think is important to say is that even if you sound halting and your utility is at the surface, and we understand the cost of this stuff on the page. You're incredibly confident and you're incredibly in control and the reader feels exactly the emotions that you want the reader to feel and when one reads, hesitated moons, one comes away understanding exactly what you think about how people should live, and that's a really beautiful and important thing. Well, people should live by living and loving the people that they love it's really kind of a very simple thing if you're lucky enough to have shelter food, and you know, a job access to medical care. So you can get better if you have depression or whatever in order to Berkeley low. That's coming back. I hear you to read a good book about to Berkeley lows is read nemesis by Philip Roth. He really knows they keep calling those short novels and I keep going like oh shit. If that's short novel. How he's like his little his role like, but that's like three times as long as my novels. Wounds shorter than Philip Roth. That's how can we veteran? Hey, sorry. Love you, Honey. Well, there you go. If anyone sees our kids trying to listen to this don't don't let them listen to. I'm so happy. This is over as I'm sure we all are. You can find Amy on Twitter. I'll say is as great as she has a lot of things. She's terrible your terrible. It's witter. Bam Twitter this week. I was trying to do social media try to get reviews didn't work out. Well, but you can still follow by the time. You get there. She'll understand how to use it. And I just could not sui Moore's writer in artists confidence ration- to me every day my life. So people follow you get fired. They should definitely reach books and goes movie has taken ones out November. I smell back EMF theaters. October twenty third you can find me at Brian compliment Twitter. My Email is the moment Bekasi Mel dot com. And please spread the word about the podcast. Thanks.
Carl Alfred Eder
"Support for this podcast comes from state farm with surprisingly great rates. State farm is the real deal when it comes to home and car insurance state farm agents are always ready to help you personalize your insurance plan. You can create a policy that fits your needs. You can manage your coverage, pay your bill or even file a claim right from your phone with the state farm mobile APP, and you can always call one of the state farm agents in neighborhoods across the country. Get a great rate without sacrificing great service when you want the real deal like a good neighbor state farm is there. Welcome to murder minute on today's episode Carl Alford Eater but I your true crime headlines. In Nevada Las Vegas Metropolitan Police have arrested thirty eight year old Carlos Figueroa. Suspicion of the murder of twenty nine year old. Natalie Kara Hall. On the Fourth of July in twenty, nineteen Kara halls body was found burning in the desert, a mile east of Seven Magic Mountain's twenty, five miles south of Las Vegas. An autopsy showed that she had been killed by a gunshot wound to the head. Family. Member said that carbohydrate had given birth to a baby girl just a few months before she was murdered. Court records show that the arrest warrant was granted for Carlos Figueroa on July thirtieth twenty nineteen. FBI, Las Vegas tweeted quote yesterday the FBI lead criminal apprehension team arrested Carlos Figueroa on a warrant charging him in connection with a murder that occurred in Las Vegas in July Twenty Nineteen Figaro arrested after a barricade and hostage situation which required Swat intervention and quote. Carlos Figueroa faces charges of murder with a deadly weapon and is being held in the Clark County detention center without bail. In. Hartford Connecticut a former College Basketball Star at his Magnus College has been murdered. Twenty four year old Yukon Walters was fatally shot shortly after noon on Saturday. Friends drove walters to the hospital where he was pronounced dead. thirty-three-year-old Jason Stone later called the police and confessed to the shooting. Stone turned himself in at the police station where he was arrested police said that a firearm was recovered from his vehicle, which is suspected as being the weapon used in the shooting. Surveillance video shows a brief fight between stone and walters followed by the shooting. Jason. Stone has been charged with murder. His bond was set at one billion dollars and he is due to be arraigned in court on September twenty first. In Albuquerque New Mexico a double homicide suspect was posing as his brother when he was arrested at a Border Patrol checkpoint. According to State Court records thirty, four year old Dakota Outlaw Briscoe was driving his twenty eight year old brother on fs two, thousand, four van and carrying his brother's driver's license when he attempted to drive through a border patrol inspection check point on Wednesday. He was then arrested not for his crime, but for his brothers. His, brother it turned out had a warrant for his own arrest for failing to appear in court in Twenty nineteen on a drug charge. Additionally the driver's license was suspended and the vans registration had expired. Briscoe was arrested as his brother two days. Later, he was about to be released on fifteen hundred dollar bond when law enforcement discovered his true identity Briscoe. A convicted felon is accused of killing two men in Albuquerque in a dispute over drug money burning their bodies inside a vehicle and carjacking a woman at gunpoint to escape. He had been on the run for eleven days. Dakota Briscoe has now been charged with two counts of murder. Two counts of attempted armed robbery six counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon burglary of vehicle aggravated burglary, unlawful taking of a motor vehicle shooting at or from a motor vehicle and aggravated arson. Those your true crime headlines up next Karl Alfred Eater but first a quick break. These or challenging times. So, there's something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals and you've been thinking about talking to someone. It's time to get better health. Better help is not a crisis line. And it's not self help. Better help is professional counseling done securely online. Better Hope Elicit your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist so that you can start communicating in under forty eight hours. They have a broad range of teas available. And the service is available for. Clients, worldwide Just log into your account anytime and send a message to your counselor. You'll get timely and thoughtful responses plus you can schedule a weekly video or phone sessions so that you don't ever have to sit in a waiting room. Better help is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. So they make it easy and free to change your counselor if you need to. Plus it's more affordable than traditional offline counseling. And financial aid is available. Better help. Once you start living a happier life today. Just visit their website and read the testimonials that are posted daily. Like this one written by a better help user after counseling with Kerry. Lucre. Carey has been amazing. She responds quickly and listened to everything I. Say. She provides articles and other reading materials that helped me standing my issues. I've definitely seen a change in myself ever since I started. visit better help dot com slash murder minute. That's B. E. T. t. e. r. h. e. l. p. and joined the over million people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. In fact, so many people have been using better help, but they are now recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states. Murder Minute listeners get ten percent off your first month. When you go to better help dot com slash murder minute. That's ten percent off your first month. When you visit better help dot com slash murder minute. Social distancing can get pretty lonely. So now more than ever I need my best fiends. Best fiends is the APP that engages my brain with challenging but fun puzzle Games. The game is simple and fun. The good guys are the bugs and the bad guys are the slugs. Complete, the puzzles to defeat the slugs as you travel through the world of my new. Collecting keys in unlocking new beans along the way. Like Brittle housefly, Edward the mosquito grade, the Scorpion, and my best fiend pop the axel. I'm on Level One, hundred and sixty, and the more I play the more fun it gets. And with new monthly dates, themed challenges, and holiday. Puzzles. There's always one more level and the adventure never gets old. This is my pandemic must play. So the next time, you need a break from the new cycle or run out of shows to binge-watch download best fiends free. You might find yourself wondering how you ever found time for dull moment before. Best fiends, thousands of levels already, it's hours of fun at your fingertips and can even be played off line. This game has one hundred million downloads and tons of five star reviews for a reserve download best fiends free on the apple APP store or Google play. That friends without the our. Best means. Welcome. Back to murder minute. In November of Nineteen Fifty Eight Thirty nine year. Old Thomas. Pendergast. was driving back to his home in. Alcohol Hone California. When he spotted a lengthy teenage boy hitchhiking along the San Diego. Freeway. Thomas was a deeply religious man. And a Good Samaritan. So he over and offer the young man arrived. The boy said that his name was Charles Harrison That he was sixteen years old. And that he was homeless. Thomas Saul himself in the young man. In. His wilder days he had once served time in a reform school for car theft. He and his wife had taken an interest in helping wayward youths before. So, Thomas felt that it was his duty to quote help save the boy's soul. He invited Charles to come stay with him and his family for a while. Just until he could find a job and support himself. Charles accepted and moved in with Thomas Pendergast his wife thirty seven year old lowest pendergrast and their four children. Nine Year Old David six year old Thomas Junior four year old Diane in two year old Alan. Six weeks later on Friday December twelve, nineteen, fifty, eight. Thomas Pendergast returned home from work to find the sixteen year old waiting outside. Holding a gun. And a suitcase. Charles pointed the gun at Thomas and told him to drive him toward San Diego. As they approached the edge of town Charles Thomas to pull over at a service station. To, use the restroom and switch clothing. Sh- Thomas grabbed the revolver and wrestled the gun out of the boy's hands. Charles, ramp. leaving. His suitcase. Behind. Instead of pursuing him Thomas. Scott back into his car and rushed back to his house. When he went inside, he found the body of his wife Lois in the hallway. She had been shot twice once in the head and once in the chest. In various rooms throughout the house, he found his children. Their throats slashed. And his older two boys disemboweled. David's body lay in the garage. It looked as though he had tried to run away. While Thomas Pendergast was at work sixteen year old Charles Harrison. Had murdered his entire family. Thomas ran out of his house. Screaming. Neighbors looked in horror as he rolled on his front lawn crying out. He's killed my wife and babies. The next day Thomas Pendergast was confined to a psychiatric ward. Authorities feared that he might attempt suicide. Thomas would soon learn the teenagers name. Wasn't Charles Harrison at all? His real name was Karl Alfred Eater. And he was a runaway. From. Rochester new. York. Authorities. Soon, learned that the boy had been using a fake ID, but he purchased in Tijuana Mexico. A man hunt ensued and Carl's picture was circulated. Then a few days later on Monday December fifteen, nineteen, fifty, eight. An off duty police officer was just twelve miles away at mission beach. When? He spotted Carl walking along the boardwalk. With the help of lifeguard, he arrested him. Carl surrendered himself without putting up much of a fight. I'm glad I'm captured. He said. I am happy to get somewhere where it's warm. And to get food. He, had been living for the past three days in a deserted ballroom he said. I did it because Diane was screaming? He told police. She wouldn't stop screaming. That started the whole thing. According to Karl. He then went to the bedroom and through the four year old girl on the floor. Cutting her head. Lois rushed to the bedroom. And took the little girl to the bathroom. She told him to call the doctor. Instead. Carl went to the garage grabbed a gun. And Shot Lois in the hallway. Then went to the bathroom and cut Diane and Allen's throats with a hunting knife. When Thomas Junior and David got home from school. He cut their throats as well and disemboweled them. Carl. said that he then packed the knife and his clothes in a suitcase. And waited for Thomas to return home from work. When police tracked down. Carl's family. And informed them of what had transpired. His father said that he never wanted to see his son again. Carl's grandmother. Martha said quote. The only thing. I. Wish. Is that they hadn't found him alive. Sixteen year old Karl Alfred eager was charged with five counts of murder. Why did you do it? Thomas asked Carl during the trial. They were all ahead in the world. Carlton Respond. He was given two life sentences and sent to prison. Sixteen years later. Thirty two year old call was serving his time in the California. Correctional Institute into Hatch P.. When in November of Nineteen, seventy four while doing farm work unsupervised outside the prison walls. He ran. Evidently, he'd been planning the. Escape. Because he left a note behind that read quote. I've done enough time. And I'm leaving. Car Eater was last seen two years later in Napa County. In nineteen eighty, nine Carl eater was featured on America's most wanted. And remains a fugitive. He has been linked to the vents array most brigade and the Symbionese Liberation Army If alive. He would now be in his seventies. Carl. Is. A white male with blue is. Six foot two inches tall weighing between one, hundred, sixty, five, and one, hundred, seventy, five pounds. Police describe him as having sunken eyes and hollow cheekbones. They say that he has scars on his left hand and his abdomen. And that he may still have several moles on his cheeks and one under his left eye. He may be working a lab technician he is skilled with knives and woodwork. and is very good at making cabinets. If you or someone you know has any information regarding the whereabouts of Karl Alfred. Eater please contact the cold homicide unit of the L. Cone Police Department by calling six one nine. Four, four, one, five, five, three, zero. This has been murder minute four true crime anytime download the murder APP or follow us on Instagram at murder minute.
CONCUSSION w/ Patrick Kelly and Eric Jackowitz
"Pipe everybody welcome to bed science. The show that breaks down the signs of a movie with a comedian and scientist today. We're discussing concussion. Saul ask about c. T. the perfect sprinkle of gray hair. That will smith has on sides of his head and much more but i a short word from our sponsor did get right. We have to fight pan everybody. Welcome back. I'm your host either edinburgh and today i've got two wonderful guests to join me to discuss concussion for the first time i've ever said this it's a movie based on a g. q. Article our first guest has a bachelors in sports science and a master's in exercise physiology and he runs a great youtube channel called core porous. It's patrick kelly. Hi patrick hello thank you for having me absolutely for being here how you doing. I'm doing well man. I watched this movie last week. I've just got all these notes gone so deep in like the history of concussion research. I've got notes going back to eighteen seventy over here. That i'm looking at so. Oh my god i heard you're a history science guy yourself so i'm like oh yes ethan's gonna love this movie. There's so much to go into. I do. I mean the combo is great for me. I love science love history. so when they intersect. I get very excited. So i'm already amped up for this podcast. We're going to have fun great. And did you play any sports growing up. That was one question. I had for you. Yeah i actually grew up writing. Bmx so i have had my air. Sheriff concussions been writing. Since i was fourteen still ride a little bit. I'll be not as much as they used to because of head injuries and z's fun that was brought. Boil have many questions about that but before we get into it. Let me introduce my other guests. Who i've known for a long time. And i can tell you just by being best friends with him. He must have had bunch of head injuries because he still wants to be best friends with me. He's one third of the comedy band. The kuti's he's one half of cape weather and co host. The hilarious podcasts says express. It's eric jacquot. It's no eric low ethan. A patrick i cannot wait to get into the concussion discussion. Oh man how did. I miss that concussion. Discussion it's just. It was waiting there. Low hanging fruit low hanging fruit. That's your middle name. We've been best friends for over a decade. And i don't know if you've ever played football. This movie obviously all about football players but you do have the football player build if i will say so like i played some football growing up and i do not have any sort of football player build and i got reconcile. My identity in high school was. I was a drummer but i was always bigger and i had a big football player build and then around tenth grade. My highschool got a football team. We didn't have one of unknown. Whatever was two thousand six. And i would all of a sudden just like be walking down the hallway and like the line coach should be like damn man you looking good to recruit you. Yeah trying to recruit me one of the bigger guys in my school. But i was just sort of this like creative drummer dude. He's like man you look nice and big thick. You've got to play football. And i was like all right. I'll try it out and i. I worked out with the team for like two weeks. And i was like this is way too much. I don't like this And then i joined marching band but there was a moment in the film that my high school football coach did do. What did he do. The three whistle drill known other three whistle drove but the The coach will go all right. Kids to rules are as like there's two things are important is like number one is school and then he would hold up two fingers number two is football and they would hold up one finger. Yeah and that didn't convince you to join the team. No didn't very strange. Is the laziest football player eric drummer. Would you say that you were more percussion than concussion know. Honestly i should just end the podcast right now. It's not getting better than this you can. I don't wanna drop your mic. But you should know. Let's keep it intact and eric. If i'm remembering this correctly was this you or my thinking of me. Did you make a number two in your sports uniform and have to run off the field. I think it was you man. Oh yeah yeah. That's my that was during baseball. Okay so we're going to have to take a break shortly. Actually but my main question always wanna get a big question out of the way early and this film centers around cte chronic traumatic and set philosophy. Am i saying that right. Patrick you got it okay. Very cool so. I wrote out a quote Will smith says in the movie that it unleashes killer proteins and chokes the brain from the inside. Is that accurate. And what the hell are we talking about. Let's talk about this scene. Because i know exactly what you're talking about. So will smith's character bennett amalia. Who is a real life. Pathologist is kind of coming through with this revelation that he has discovered cte chronic traumatic encephalopathy. The name is exactly what it sounds like. Chronic issaquah over time traumatic a result of trauma and then encephalomyopathy and meaning within several meaning brain and then apathy meaning like disease or. Something is wrong the literally. It's a head injury from a bunch of traumatic instances. And he's having this. He's having this realization. Like oh man. I've discovered something that is going to be so scandalous. This is a huge thing. The nfl is gonna want to know this. And so he's making his case to i think was another neurologist. I'm not quite sure who this other character was. He was explaining it to but he was making the case for c. t. e. And this pathology like. I've i've had to kind of look what some of these proteins are but it all centers around protein called. Tau spelled. t. a. You in this protein is normally found within the neuron and what makes t. e. little bit different. Is that these proteins for whatever reason. We aren't totally sure why this happens. They end up in the side of plaza so in the main part of the cell like in the liquid inside it and they're just like they're not where they're supposed to be and that's what t. Looks like under a microscope. To will smith character and so he's making all of these inferences based on like old boxing papers. See like a few minutes before that explanation seen. He's pulling up Something from the british medical journal from nineteen fifty seven. It was like aspects of boxing as far as a neurologist concern. The title is almost exactly that awesome and so he's polling like hey. We're seeing the same thing from boxers which used to be a huge sport in football players. And we know how it ends for boxers. Punchdrunk is what it would have been called in the literature back then like there is actually a paper titled punchdrunk describing cte and boxers. And so when you saying that these proteins are killing it from the inside out. It's a little bit of an embellishment. The little bit of a you know. They had to make a dramatic. That's that's a fairly good way to describe what's happening in t. Okay so it's because of the trauma because of being hit in the head. It's moving that protein that tau into the site. Oh plasma and that is what is causing people's brains to degenerate to turn against themselves. Yes so it's a little bit more complicated. Like i was trying to make this link super clear to myself to like is it. That repeated hits are causing this protein to change shape and then migrate into a different part. Where the not supposed to be. That's what was a little bit loss on me. I will say like the protein itself changes shape And so like it doesn't look how it doesn't it does not only in a different spot but is in a different way confirmation compared to a healthy state got you. Yeah as yeah just as a result of all these multiple sub concussive hits basically. It didn't seem like a full concussion. But it was just a smaller hit. That's what ends up causing. C. t. e. I really enjoyed the other film about this. Called punchdrunk love director. Cte going to leave that right there and say that we're gonna take a quick break and hear word from our sponsor and we'll be back to talk about eric's favor director. Cte charles thomas anderson charles thomas anderson and it's great movie punchdrunk love about football. Oh man support for this podcast comes from goldman sachs what goldman sachs experts and leading thinkers have to say about trends shaping markets industries and the global economy stay informed with the latest insights from goldman sachs on the economic and market implications of covid nineteen available on our podcasts at yes dot com slash covid nineteen or any of your favorite podcast platforms. Microsoft teams is helping a bicycle company. Reinvent the way that they work. We make low maintenance bicycles for everyday. Writers wants a pandemic hit. We had nobody coming into the showroom so we started doing virtual visits via microsoft teams two or three. Fold the amount of customers. We used to be able to see all of a sudden. We could open up our showroom to customers around the world. I really think going to set a standard for retail. Moving forward learn more at microsoft dot com slash teams breakers overt. Here we go about science. So we're back and you mentioned boxers. Having this problem. That was one of the things that i was wondering. While watching the movie is that like how have we not been able to recognize this or diagnose this until the events of this film until the early two thousands right because people have been. I assume suffering from this for many many years. Yeah and you're totally right and it. It wasn't that amalia was the first person to find. Ct and some of the criticism of this film has certainly made. It seem like all right. This this makes it seem like it's you know one hero discovering e. sticking up to the nfl and making a huge scientific breakthrough huge eureka moment. But that isn't really what happens. we've known about cte for a long time. The first time that that phrase gets us in that classic punchdrunk paper nineteen twenty eight. It was later called. Dementia pugh listrik. You know because we need to make things sound more. Latin and scientific of course right pugilists being like a fighter. So we have known about this and a lot of the research will follow like just what's popular at the time so research in mental institutions in the late eighteen hundreds research in soldiers in the world wars than research and boxers researching like automotive accidents and now with all these is on football. Now it's just being given a much bigger public audience of. Yeah we've known what c. t. is for a long time but now we've connected. It's a football got you okay. So yeah that was one of the craziest things. I found out immediately after watching the movie. Because it says based on a true story and then at the end it has one of those kind of where are they now recap texts that comes up and kind of tells you what happened after the events of the movie and does not touch on the fact that dr bennett malo for all his greatness did not discover or name ct. Yeah there's there's a pretty specific scene in the movie where they tell them why you found this and you're going to have to name it yet. That was a little like they took some liberties there. I guess yeah like you said. Make it more dramatic Okay but this was very much directed at the nfl. There's tons of anti nfl rhetoric in the movie. Although i will say. I found out that because of the sony hack. The new york times discovered emails directly referencing moving unflattering moments for the nfl and quote. Most of the bite out of the film for legal reasons which i found larry. Because that's like half the movie is them like not bowing down to the nfl. So did that take an effect like do you know if nfl ratings have gone down or our parents a lot less likely to enlist their children in to tackle football men s question as far as ratings of the nfl. I have no idea man. I'm i'm so far removed from like what popular with all right now. What about you eric. You're a huge dolphins guy right. No i like basketball. Got it go ahead patrick. So what it didn't tell you guys is before science communicator. Before i was a teacher. I worked in sports medicine so i was an athletic trainer. An atc certified athletic trainer. And i work on the sidelines of football games. Baseball games all these different sports games At a local high school. And so i would talk to parents. That was a big part of my job. And you know. I would hear vocalisations of like. I don't want my kid playing football in varsity because they hit harder worried about head injuries. So yeah it's a real fear absolutely so and they should be worried is what you're saying if a new parent is listening to this. There is cause for concern here. I guess like you. Your kid will get sub concussive blows which i still don't know exactly what that means actual concussions due to football that is going down and that will increase their chances of getting see. So here's the most interesting statistic. I found during this research and this was from like a concussion information site so it's probably a little bit. You know one of the staff they want you to to hear But the risk he just goes up with years played. Football not numbers of concussions. This person over the course of their career sustained three severe concussions. They had to go seek medical attention for it but it was literally years in football. So you imagine like a pop warner kid goes from nine years old through college football so they've got thirteen years on the field. Compare that to somebody who started at age fourteen. Maybe played some years pro. You know they exit. When they're twenty seven they have the same risk of developing c. T. according to this source regardless of how many like big concussions. They got even if their kicker yes. That's the thing one of the stories are read from the new york times Had a concussion researcher. Who took in. I think it was like one hundred and twelve brains of x. Nfl players and of every position quarterback kicker linemen. Like who do you think not the most concussions. Or got the most have the highest prevalence of t. What position are. Can you give me a multiple choice. I'm not sure all the positions lined by tonight. I'll say lineman lyman to me. Makes the most sense. Yeah alignment just left. Lineman the left one. Yes in the movie revolves around. Mike webster for like the first half the movie at least and he's the center and they make kind of a big deal about that. So maybe that's the answer right so it was. It was linemen. Got that's what. I would have guessed slam dunk easy right. Their job is to bang heads with other people. Okay and so like of the of the hundred twelve brains like forty. Four of them were lineman. Now this was like you know out of out of these brains. The vast majority of them had c. T. e. it was a super like biased population. Because all of these families had sent in you know permission to say like hey researcher please study my loved ones brain. We think they had t. Maybe you can find sure enough. It would like confirmation bias like hey we found cte because we thought they had cte exhibiting symptoms presumably and those are going to run the gamut of like to mention to depression to maybe just like sometimes they act funny dr and so that was a that seemed like pretty damning evidence but again like a ton of bias in it right going back to the original question. I was like you know is football bad for you Like that's such a tricky question because like there are so many benefits of being in a sports and on average. Nfl players do not like die earlier than anybody else again. They're professional like they're in great shape for at least part of their life but there is a higher risk of developing. Cte so it's like how no it's a nuance question that we're not gonna be able to find an answer to i don't know what do you guys think gut reaction for me. It seems like a crap thing to get. Cte at least from the movie does not look very fun. And there's plenty of sports baseball basketball. Eric mentioned he loves. I love basketball to my basketball guy. We're basketball guys so eric. Why basketball over football. Well i mean whole point of basketball isn't to run into the other person headfirst unless you're lineman unless you're a basketball linemen and plus football just moves too slow for me. It's so boring. yeah. I also don't like the time in between plays and the time out and i feel like i got i get. Ct from watching football. It's like this is so boring. what do you mean. It's two minutes on the clock left. I've been watching for thirty eight minutes. I don't know what time is anymore and basketball has fun razzle-dazzle type pace Players faces in basketball. It's like oh my god you're gonna shoot a three my face. I'm gonna look angry. And then say oh. I'm going to shoot a three right back in your face in two seconds from now and it's it's much more exciting. That's one of the best arguments i've ever heard. Actually that you can see their face. You hold a lot of emotion in your face and in football. Yeah got a big mask in front of you. Same thing with hockey i i. I see hockey is an emotionless. Solis garbage fire a little harsh. He's on the program stirred up. I'm crazy why isn't he's a crazy guest. Why isn't hockey you on the hot seat. I mean people are smashing into each other constantly and lucky and there's a section of the game called fight up with that what's the deal. Why in there. The concussion movie about that as a question. actually i don't know because like do they sustain concussions. Hell yeah they do. And i don't know like overall hockey is not as popular as football in america. At least i do wonder how much of it has to do with like kids getting involved in like the emotion of signing kids up for youth hockey versus youth football and youth. Football seems more dangerous. Interesting mad. eric. You're gonna start gonna come from san jose sharks and you can't do that and expect you know a little bit honestly. I'm just jealous i. I wanted to play hockey as a kid and my parents were like. How much do to spend on pads. Yeah yeah and they just got you a drum pads and they so they bought me a two thousand dollar. Drums set weird out of their mind. Hello to them they lose. Maybe we just need a doctor to pay for their tests. You know like this doctor. I don't know how rare that is. A malu had to pay for the test to happen to like prove. Cte or get it out into the open or whatever it was. I don't know how to even put it right now. I would say discovered took a pay cut. He paid like twenty thousand dollars right. Yeah of his own money. So how often does that happen. And should you do that for hockey players and completely break the mold and then get a huge will smith to play you man As far as like. How often does it happen. I assume it has to happen. Especially when like this is working us working for the city right. He was working for Was it any county the county that pittsburgh. i can't imagine that's like a super high paying job what he does mercedes. Hey man everyone's got priorities. A lease it he bought a house is still pittsburgh. It's not california funding his on research. Which is a thing that happens. It's hard to like. It is hard to get research money. Like ask any anybody who comes on the show next like hey How much of a headache is it to get money for your research. And they will you know. Talk your ear off. It always seems like it's a huge pain in the butt. Okay switching gears here for a second because obviously we're gonna discuss the concussions From here to dim book too but there was a part in the movie where dr who says. I don't usually eat breakfast. So i wanted to ask you about that. Is he skipping. The most important meal of the day or like arrogant i. I believe both of us don't eat breakfast. I eat from twelve to eight. What about you. eric I i dig your time. I'll let me think about that. I go back and forth back and forth. Okay so you mix it up. Sometimes you want breakfast. You have some breakfast six months out of the have breakfast it up. I don't know. I'm i'm weird. Sometimes i soon as i wake up i have to eat something. I'll have breakfast. And sometimes i can wait until noon bedrick yet same way. I'm just like sometimes. I'm hungry and i eat and i have nothing to tell you as far as like. Is it the most important meal of the day. I don't know man okay. So you're not taking it too big breakfast. I gotta say breakfast like a king lunch like a queen and dinner like a joker or jester. Nobody popper nobody says that. So there's a part Where he shows pictures of birds. Do you know what i'm talking about. He has like two birds one's a woodpecker and then a bighorn sheep and says that they all have shock absorbers for their brains and now we as humans do not right that thing with the little thing in the glass. He said that our brains move around in our skulls and they're completely disconnected. Like some little junky had in water in a jar. Is that accurate. A pool ball. And i saw in interviews on some talk show like a few years later and he had the same jar with the same little ball in water and he brought it out into the interview sloshing at around. And i'm like you done this before haven't you. This is kind of your party trick What a great party. Everybody goes okay you guys. Can we stop the music all right jig. This guy dr malu. Please go ahead. You're genius. What what kind of trick or are you going to do. I put an eight ball in a mason jar up halfway with water. So that's like your brain joined the music we have to. We gotta talk about this. There's a scene. Where will smith his future wife or at that club and the mute like some early two thousands hip hop is coming on. And we'll smith like i don't dance and like dude. I've seen fresh prince. I know you can dance. This is so unlike you will smith. I mean that's why he's an award winning actor that scene. Maybe think of hitch. It's like there was a whole scene in history. Teaching kevin james had to dance. And i'm like. I know i know you know how to dance. Dude yeah we need a compilation of all. Will smith movies where he's either dancing. We're talking about how he doesn't know how i'm coming after will smith. He's his damn hypocrite. Know but is that accurate like are we as our brain just sloshing around in their although that perspective so skull bone brain big squishy pink ball in between them is some stuff. So you have the engines that you guys have heard of this meningitis before. It is inflammation of the meninges or these connective tissues between the skull and the brain. But they're like the middle layer. The arachnoid layer just looks like cobwebs. Hence the name so it is not exactly like the most supportive thing you've ever seen. So sloshing around is a fair a fair illustration of it. I always get reese's pieces and butter fingers on my menendez frozen yogurt okay. We're out of time we're gonna we're ending this early. No honestly i was just thinking. I wish you had a different name meninges because it sounds like childlike and like kind of silly and it seems like so important. Yeah same thing with flanges right and then your your fingers very good. Yeah but like times ten and don't complement eric. That's a basic anatomical piece of information to the femur. Right have a great youtube channel. You should watch metatarsal always plugging everyone Just in case you're still listening to this. Go checkout out to stop listening listening right now. Actually we're gonna take a break and we're gonna throw a sponsor and And while that happens go watch patrick's videos corporate on youtube and we'll be back. Introducing the new verizon business unlimited plans now you can pick a plan for his lowest thirty dollars a month per line with auto-pay get five g nationwide plus massive data capacity plus spam blocking features and with rise in business unlimited. You can mix and match the right plans for your business so you get more of what you need and none of what you don't from verizon. The network businesses rely on five g. Nationwide available in eighteen hundred plus cities most visa five g devices per line pricing with five plus lines on biz unlimited star device payment smartphone purchase auto pay in paper free billing required terms. Apply support for this. Podcast comes from lexus. Maybe you're an aficionado. 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What's the difference between like a concussion. Getting knocked out. Dude see off you guys. This is exactly like the premise of this of this video. It's like what is a concussion. It depends who you ask and it depends on when you ask so like the sixty. Jesus thing. I don't know like how true that is. And how that was tested Do different animals have brains that are capable of withstanding different forces. Sure so like in preparation for this. I looked at different time periods of when different organizations have defined concussion. So if you ask like the cdc a few years ago they have a different answer than like the american neurological association and it has kind of broad definition of like. It's anything that happens. Post trauma that alters your mental state and that's kind of like the overarching definition of a concussion. Sometimes that'll explicitly say with or without loss of consciousness. And sometimes they'll say like with amnesia or with you know sleeplessness or something and it just of seems to you know everybody has their different ways of making a concensus but it does just depend on. Who and when you ask an eric getting knocked out does not necessarily have to be there to have a concussion There are different ways of grading a concussion. Like you might have heard mild. Moderate severe yet set doesn't necessarily mean anything across the board like you wouldn't be. I know i know ruin everything. You know about concussions. But that doesn't necessarily matter a lot of the ways that like. I used to handle concussions with my team. Physician was on duration of symptoms. So like somebody might have a headache but that headache loss for two weeks compared to somebody who had amnesia sleep disturbances vision disturbances. And you know a headache. That just won't go away no matter what like who is this. What is a severe moderate or mild concussion. in that case There are different ways of grading them but again it depends on who you are and how you practice. Wow okay yeah seems Seems pretty vague and in the movie seemed very specific but the movie was full of lies. Speaking of which there is a moment he. And i believe this is a direct quote his describing mike webster and says that he was pulling out his teeth and super gluing them back in Yeah so you don't. Why is that that weird you. Or let's have a discussion off mike eric. Are you tooth. Shaming bro. I'm not do shaming. That's very cool. And i wanted to know how to do it. All right just checking. I don't wanna have to cancel you shaming no. I just wanted to know if that like to me. That shot out as like okay. Maybe this movie is making something more dramatic. What actually are the symptoms of ct. But maybe i'm wrong and you know people do such severe actions. Yeah i mean in. The movie were definitely made to believe that. Like the behaviors that you know. Mike webster is sitting in his truck. He's very clearly homeless. Hasn't shared it hasn't changed. Were led to believe that. That's what cte does to you right. One of the quotes is football. Killed mike webster reading some of the articles after the fact. That seemed like that was like a thing that he did that. Was you know just one of those things that cd made him do. But there was also the teaser. Remember that he's taking gelson s so supposedly that wasn't just because like he liked pain that was because he had such severe back pain that that would kind of distract him and let him fall asleep while even though like again in the movie. It's he tasers himself. He passes out and then the next scene is. Hey now mike webster's body is on the autopsy table right so confused about the the structure of how that was laid out. I was like you just die from teasing himself in the leg. How often does that happen. But i don't know. Apparently that wasn't the case but very confusing the way they put those together. Yeah yeah Supposedly did die of a of heart disease but also had ct and so that was one of the things that will smith's character said was like you know heart disease may have killed him but that's not how he died for some kind of muddled verbiage like that And so it wasn't that amalia was trying to figure out like why he died. It was why he was acting so strange before his death right but yeah that was kind of just how they cut the movie together made it seem like he died from his from his own hands. And do you know if the fbi stuff was real. The they showed a scene where the fbi came into. A doctor's office and mafia style threatened. Albert brooks is characters to basically stop their research or they're going to jail and then will smith says like well. You can't stop me. I'll quit and get a job in another city and they both both fbi officers. If i'm not mistaken go on the a real shame. If some nab deal you with becca skelton over here exactly. It was so strange. I was curious about that too and it seemed like that was a again some dramatic liberties were taken there where was like actually a few years between his trouble with the fbi and then the research note was not like. We're gonna come get you now. The government's involved with this big cover up. Yeah they made it seem. I mean without being direct about it. They made it seem like the nfl and the fbi were in very tight. Cahoots and the fbi was just acting on behalf of the nfl to make a dramatic. Yeah they i guess you're right. I mean i watched. The movie definitely would certainly dramatic. I mean i was crying the entire movie me too but i was also chasing myself in the league. Of course. Eric knows that's all. I like watching movies. That's how it goes. i don't ask. And we watch the corn frozen coke and teaser to the leg bunch crunch as my leg out monica. Gophers a bunch of right. Now tell you what another one. This is a small one but but it is scientific. I guess we'll smith is looking at slides in a microscope and they really make a point to show that he's rubbing these slides or wiping them unlike his shirt or like pants and then putting them into the microscope and so is that like a normal move. Is he supposed to do that every time. Because i'm over here. I don't use microscopes. But i would think there's really important stuff on these slides and then like you're just gonna wipe them on your shirt also pretty sure you're not supposed to take your patients home with you or like you know. I think right workman Yeah i mean put aside corona. It was funny like that whole process of like the the machine that was doing those super thin deli slices of brain. He was doing a practice called histology. So just like you know. Taken anatomy slicing it up then. Putting specific stain on it to make certain structures more visible was looking under the microscope. But he put he put a slide. Cover on you know why not just wipe it off under sleeve. What about the When he's talking to the dead bodies that's kind of odd right or do you think that was like real or They add that in for dramatic effect. I don't know. I don't know if that was like a thing that he did. I will say like having been in cadaver labs. There is such both haunting and beautiful aspect of being with a dead body. Go on yeah not to make creepy at all. I'm listening yeah exactly. This is a this is the fun. I ate conversation by the way. Yeah but being around and being around a cadaver so is such a trip. Because it's it's a person that once had a life and a family who died of a thing that we could all die from and we get to carry on this tradition of learning about the human body through their generous donation like their life ended up here on the table that we then get to learn from and so like in those moments where i've gotten to be with the cadaver like i do. Try to humanize that body and show respect to it. But then also you have to disassociate like okay. I'm learning this isn't creepy. This isn't like macabre. i'm just i'm here. I'm learning from a body and that's it is what it is and how often when you were a sports doctor helping you know. Go stretch out there hamstrings. Did you have to then. During halftime cut open dead body. Not enough and end. Did you empty out an entire gatorade container on on it if you only during championships because there was a moment in the movie where he was spraying the body with the i think it was water So i don't know maybe gatorade powerade powerade zero. Maybe that would help. I don't know yeah exactly something to really just clean out both inside and the outside yeah and it stains the body too. So it's easier to find what you're looking for this lemon lime cadaver. Talk about an arctic rush. God okay so i listened. Patrick i have a few more questions. But they're very silly. So i know you said that you may not want to make sure we get to them is there. Is there anything else you wanted to inform us about. As far as concussion goes looking at looking at my notes and everything wanted to give them a shout out on the histology prep. I'm like okay. Cool you're probably this probably going to be like a good sci-fi movie and then there's that scene whereas all coming together and wills myths brain. He's watching like nfl on tv. He's he's kind of doing the model in head. And then there's this terrible stock footage scene where the brain is colliding against the skull and then just the neurons like poof. Into how yes. And i screamed at my computer. Like no get out of here. I you've lost me at that point. I mean i've watched the rest of the movie. But like that. Was i lost it. A little bit jew so mad had it doesn't work like that just doesn't look like that. It's just a completely. Yeah it's just abstract so dramatic cise. I like you were on such a good streak had kept it up. What would you have told the animator two two draw if we were gonna you know. Director comes you allies concussion. Yea we're going in we're gonna make crazy visual zoom into somebody's brain. How would we do. Well how do we. I guess when you put it like that. It's not a sexy to to dry towel moving into the side of plaza and doing things on sexy to me. Yeah different strokes. Yeah i mean you're talking about hanging by dead bodies beautiful. And i love it. I stand by that man. You're a keeper to any other person who's done Cadaver labs and it's both creepy. But also you know you appreciate life. Yeah that's beautiful man. That is beautiful and then the other thing this was less science mortgages like you guys notice that there was a a very strong you know kinda toxic masculinity component to this movie. Yes there's the gets the no middle of the night. Our sorry give exact amal gets the call in the middle of the night you know and we got this idea that he had gotten a string of hate mail an and Threats against his life and everything but there was one scene where caller goes and says you know. What are you trying to do man. Vagit by football being so stricken by by bat line. 'cause like I wonder if that happens but was that also just trying to summarize like you know quote the angry fan out there who angry stupid push-back. Yeah exactly you're trying to deescalate football. What are you gonna do. Take our tackles away. Yeah increase the helmet size. Make football safer. Should they increased. The helmets is that the answer. Did i just solve it. I don't think so. 'cause helmets are better at preventing skull fractured than concussion. Attract people tried throughout history. I would step down as the host of the joey them. Yeah i'm going to step down and commit myself full solving this problem. I did get a sales pitch from a helmet company. I won't name. But when i was still working in the fields. They were selling these helmets for high schoolers had little sensors built into them. That would tell you when a force exceeded a certain threshold so you could go check in on them. I didn't buy it because he's homeless. Were way too expensive than i don't know what it would have been like to learn that tech. Here's that those tech helmet guys are hacks you gotta you gotta buy. My technology is much more advanced. It's essentially a pillow that is duct taped together that surround somebody's head There's no technical components you don't have to worry about that. And they're much cheaper ethan's elements perfect. Put it in the hell. Ethan helmets but then i just wanted to comment on the infuriating immigration system. We have here. Because it said which i couldn't believe at the end of the movie that he becomes a us citizen which is very important him back. They stressed this many times in the film like he looks up to americans and wants to guys. He has a tv because you should have a tv. Even though he doesn't watch right and i found out that he came to the us in ninety four and was working because he already had like medical education. So you know. He kept studying but he was also working saving lives for twenty one years without citizenship in the united states. So president biden. If you're listening to this which. I know that you are avid listener. Huge fan of bad science joe biden. Let's do something. Let's change some laws for these heroes. Like dr bending ahmadu come on man from era to you come on man come on man. Those arguments come on thank you. I could not believe that that was true but Speaking of eric and his famous catchphrase come on man. Gamal man anything else you wanted to tell people about eric. Where can people find you. What's going on. Oh my god you can find me on by me on at yes. It's eric underscore at the end underscore. Yes at the end of my name. I mean you could also just search are jaguars in my handle will come up On twitter. i don't tweet it all so don't even bother and yeah listen to success. Express listener cooties. Watch our videos on youtube and worth real anything for. Have you want to say to your parents who we insulted earlier in the episode. I appreciate you not buying me pats for hockey and getting me trump said instead. I'm sorry i shamed you on the spot guests. I speak for your parents. When i say i forgive you and i'm proud of you. Thank you mom. You dad Very well once. I love you and i know you know. There's a big distance between the you're in florida and you're obviously at risk because of covid and i haven't been able for year but i hope to see you very soon. Yes you will soon I'm still speaking as your parents and My let me so much more pictures. Send enough of course by the way house the dog. The dog is good. patrick kelly. You're youtube channel is corp. Boris is awesome. Seen several of the videos they are fantastic. Is there anything else you want to tell people about or something. New you're dropping on corporeal something that features. Eric and i have not yet. But let's let's let's chat a little bit. The man i got. I got to put a video out with all these notes. I feel like i have enough research to twenty minute video or something. So if you like. This podcast certainly. I'll have that video up. Hopefully by the time this thing comes out. I also do a show for seeker called human. Whoa this hey you know that for secret brothers how this whole thing probably is. I don't know. I just wake up and slam a coffee down my gullet and turn on the podcast. Turn on the recording. Can i have a podcast on. Seager you have eric no. I won't won't come on man get a podcast on seager. Yes oh man. That's bizarre we just are establishing this. Yeah it's called the human It's like a human anatomy and physiology show. We have twenty five episodes out right now and we drop them. I think every thursday When you can find that's on the secret channel Otherwise twitter instagram at pat. Kelly teaches and this has been fun. Thanks for chatting guess. Absolutely patrick thank you. So much You were wonderful to speak with and your podcast. It's just called human apart. It's a video series on speaker youtube. Oh okay great. Well cut all that other stuff out and then just have me saying i also love bedrick seeker. Show a video series called human. It's fantastic. it's my favorite show. I appreciate that with all this. And sarah who was the sopranos. That was my number one. Now that's number two. Oh my god human is number one. You want to talk about the sopranos. We record another hour. I was gonna say what a what a letdown sopranos to human. It's a it's a big gap between one and two. It's utah and furthest concussion video. Let me know if you need crash test. Dummies because eric and i do hang out. And so. I'm i'm down eric. If you are to put on a helmet and film ourselves you know wrecking each other. Oh yeah. I was going to hit my head as hard as i could on my desk just for test. We're not doing what. We're not doing video so i'm not going to do that. Okay that'll be the The intro of punch drunk love famous director. Cg and will feature that episode one of the percussion discussion. My new podcast. On seeker. i can't wait to listen to that Hopefully you get charles. Thomas anderson as a guest charleston. Anderson is so good. I watched phantom threat with my girlfriend last night and she thought it was boring. she's not wrong You guys both for being on the program. I had a great talking with you. And we'll we'll speak next time. There's a big movie out about people. Getting hit in the face can't wait. Your guys are the bad signs. He's a secret podcast produced by emily. Feld and me. Ethan edinburgh our editor is lucas. Ohlinger and our social media is managed by blue whale media. Shout out to jane. Kate and the executive produce sub concussive ve blow burr. His bread kushner co falls on instagram at bad signs pot. There's movie legacy discussing the podcast feel free to email. At-bats signs at secret dot com. That's bad signs at cu dot com. And please leave us. And i tunes review gave us five stars to driver but it does help. Make sure people know about podcast which we really appreciate visiting by.
The Morning Briefing: Wednesday, October 28
"On Danny, Boyle with the briefing from the Telegraph. It's Wednesday October the twenty eighth, and there's a new projection of the second corona virus wave. So the prime minister's coming onto pressure for a new lockdown, we've learned that Downing Street's working privately your new assumptions about the UK second covid wave the latest projection hazard more deadly than the first with the number of victims remaining high throughout winter our health editor lower donnelley's got details of the internal analysis she understands it's led to intense behind the scenes lobbying from Patrick valance. He wants Boris Johnson to take more drastic action now. And what about Christmas while it's just eight weeks away and advises on sage of warned that all of England might be on the tier three restrictions by mid December, the many families that could scupper. Celebrations, but before then it's Halloween this weekend. Of course, we've got a guide to how to get the best outs of it what you can some probably shouldn't do. Now after a migrant boat sank in the channel yesterday to children age five and eight of died and babies reported missing, it's the third fatal accident involving migrant vessel in the channel in just three months putting pressure on the government to take more Action Alabama Fez editor Charles, Thomas has written a piece explaining how traffickers exploit the vulnerable. And he wants made Kazakhstan global laughingstock. So the fictional TV reporter, Borad's perhaps an unlikely choice of ambassador for the country but fourteen years old and he's being used to boost that profile tourists with a sequence of the film out this week therapies have adopted. BARATZ catchphrase. We've got the pictures. I could also recommend some other bits two including how hackers broke into Donald Trump's election campaign size overnights, and a review of the new Land Rover defender. Right up to date from the Telegraph Chris will have your second briefing of the day this evening.
The Evening Briefing: Monday, February 3
"Elo Danny Boyle with the briefing from the Telegraph bringing you up to speed in two minutes. It's Monday February. The third and the mother of the stratum terrorist risk spoken out so she lost saw her son on Thursday when he seemed what she called normal. Then Sudesh Arman rang his as mother asking her to make Martin Barani just hours later. The twenty year old went on his knife rampage. At two o'clock on Sunday his mother's described him as a nice polite like boy claiming he was radicalized in prison and online amount was shot dead by police after attacking to shoppers with stolen knife in south London. As I I was telling you this morning he'd been imprisoned distributing terror documents. He was released early ten days ago. It's a fast. Moving police. Investigation will have the very latest you just in our live blog all evening. Of course it's only around two months since another London attack by a terrorist on parole. Boris Johnson address the issue today. He signaled that terrorists. Currently in jail will now lose their right to automatic early release halfway through their sentences. How Home Affairs Editor Charles? Thomas explains what the law says and how it might be changed now. After brexit day on Friday thoughts turn to trade the Prime Minister's given a speech today Jing America bashes to realize the potential of a deal with the US when it comes to the European Union he said Britain would seek ca-canada style free trade agreements but the EU sat out competing vision of the future relationship. We look at the differences. And it's a problem that's affected most households at one point or another poor WIFI connection. Well this could see the end of that. Scientists have invented wanted smart wallpaper. They say it can dramatically boost Internet signal strength tenfold. Matthew Field has pictures of what the invention looks like. And how how it works right. Stay put if you're listening on. What's apples into those links? Now you're listening on spotify apple wherever you get your podcast. You'll find them in the show notes as well as links to the five areas where England went wrong in their six nations opener and the ultimate guide to inheritance tax loopholes. That's it you're up to date I'll be back with your next briefing.
The Morning Briefing: Thursday, June 25
"Halloween Danny Boyle with the briefing from the Telegraph. It's Thursday June. The twenty fifth and we've got exclusive details about how pupils will return to school. So it's been the great schools conundrum, how do you get children to be socially distanced when their instincts to be anything Bart when it seems the answer is you don't we can reveal? The government's going to announce that social distancing won't apply in schools. Instead bubbles will be expanded to let all pupils turn to their classes in September that means teaches will be asked to focus on limiting how much children mix outside their class. Our education editor. Camilla turn has the exclusive. School might still be out for many people's, but the beach is definitely in bt. Spots were packed yesterday despite England's lockdown officially lasting another two weeks, thousands defied social distancing rules at the seaside. We've got pictures and also guide to keeping cool while working from home in a heatwave. Now, from beaches, the other thing have been waiting for is holidays averages to be announced this weekend with a series of short haul destinations? We've learned that the first trunch is expected to be low risk places from July, the fourth, including France, Italy, Spain Greece and Germany. Home Affairs Editor Charles. Thomas has got details of the second larger wave of countries were expecting. There'll be unveiled next week. And the prime minister's announcement about easing of the lockdown left many thinking about some bookings with hair salons, Baba's restaurants and pubs reopening soon. Get ready for a mad dash to secure that I post lockdown meal haircut pint. You've been dreaming of. So. What should you be booking today? Experts explain everything. I could also recommend some other material to including an interview with former Bank of England governor. Mervyn King in our planet, normal podcast and Al Metropol from Infield as Liverpool on the cusp of premier. League glory I'll send you those links now. If you're listening on WHATSAPP, you'll find them in. The show notes if you're listening on specify. Or wherever you get podcasts, that's it you're up to date. Chris will have your second briefing of the day this evening.
The Cambridge Seven
"Welcome to five minutes in churches hosted by Dr Stephen. Nicholson where we take a little break from the presence to go exploring. The past asked travel back in time as we look the people events and even the places that have shaped the story of Christianity. This is our story family history. Let's get started Montague Harry proctor. beauchamp Stanley Peace Arthur and cease oil Paul Whole Hill Turner Dixon Edward Host William Morton Castles. That's six names. Here's the seventh Charles. Thomas Stud Aka A. C. T.. Stud these seven have been called the Cambridge seven. They've also been called the Dream Team of missions. They were all aristocrats British aristocrats. They were educated in Britain's finest boarding schools they all hailed from some of the finest families of England and they all went to Cambridge University and the various colleges as an Undergrad in February of eighteen. Eighty five the Cambridge seven boarded a boat headed to China they had all been accepted as missionaries in the China. Inland mission. The mission that was founded by Hudson. Taylor Taylor C.. T. Stud was the most famous of the Cambridge seven his father inherited money but also made a fortune manufacturing indigo. He was sent off to Eaton and also then to Cambridge. They had manner homes and they had a London house in the exclusive Hyde Park Gardens. uh-huh neighborhood there were eleven children in the study of family and three of the Brothers excelled at cricket. CT was the best the three I could tell you his bowling average his wickets his runs scored. But honestly I have no idea how cricket works after eating see Teesta. He stood went to Cambridge and he played for England's national team but he was converted and he heard the Gospel his father had been converted by hearing Dwight l Moody Preach at a Crusade Eight in London and a few years later. CT Stud was converted. He wanted to give his life to missions and so there is a student at Cambridge. He was devoted to foreign admissions and went with his colleagues to China. He's known for two very memorable things the first of CT studs is only one. Life will soon be passed only. What's done for Christ will last? And then he said some went to live within the sound of the church or the Chapel Bell. I went went to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell so he went off to China while he was in China he married Priscilla. They had four daughters and it was after his time in China that he was a missionary in India for about six years planning a church pasturing and then he would later turn his heart in his attention to Africa he would establish the heart of Africa mission. which would become the world? Evangelism Crusade or Weck International Belgian Congo served as home base for work there and through through the other places in Africa. C. T. Stud died in nineteen thirty one in the Belgian Congo. Well what happened to the other six of the Cambridge seven when they landed ended in China in eighteen eighty five split up into two groups. The two brothers Paul Hill Turner Brothers Arthur. NCO seized he's done. Arthur would end up working working in data who in China. He established the Gospel Hall there a hospital among other things and he worked right up until the time of his death in nineteen thirty eighty five in China. His brother also served in China until the time of his death in one thousand nine hundred thirty eight Montague proctor Boesch shop. He was the son of Baron and when his older brother died he inherited the title and he became a baron he served in China for about fifteen years and then he served served as a chaplain to British forces in World War One and Egypt and then in Russia Stanley Smith was on the rowing team at Cambridge. He landed in China eighteen eighty five and worked there until nineteen thirty one. He preached right up until the night before he died. Nineteen thirty one dixon. Host had a legacy of a long long missionary service. He was actually in a Japanese internment camp in Shanghai during World War Two and after the war he returned to England died the next year. Nineteen Nineteen forty-six William Morton Castles saw much of the world. He was born in Portugal educated in Cambridge and then from eighteen eighty five to nineteen twenty five. He ministered Mr in China where he died and that the Cambridge seven. I'm Steve Nichols. Thanks for joining us for five minutes. Interest for more ordination or to listen to past episodes. Please visit five minutes in Church. History Dot Com.
Helpful Ghost Pets (GT Mini)
"Support for this podcast come from. Cdw in dell technologies at cdw. Wg we get the migration. See to a hyper converged. Infrastructure is challenging. Like decaf. Gotta do it. Slowdown frowned cdw. Jeez experts can help. Simplify your transition. From legacy to hyper converged infrastructure with dell. Emc solutions that offer speed and agility. Have you done it. Is it done yet netanya. Rt orchestration by cdw. People who get it. Find out more at cdw dot com slash dell emc. Man's best ghost friend. I'm jason horton. I'm rebecca lieb and this is a ghost town. We talk a lot about. Goes we talk a lot about missing figures. We talk a lot about ominous notes which we got this week but we don't talk a lot about helpful ghostwe or friends or people or pets so i wanted to dedicate one of our episodes to some helpful. Ghostwe pets that. I am research and i want to give the proper respect that i think that they deserve will what you've said. Your interactions were just kind of like short Glimpses we're i did have any of somebody that i was somebody who we both know that i worry about somebody who were both worried about or concerned about and this person was in my dream but previous to that my cat was in my dream and he jumped in my lap and then jumped away which i was like. Well you know what i mean. It got up and went to another room and the person i was worried about was sitting there the table. Why and i sat down next to him. And i probably was just like. Hey have you been what's going on. And then that's all i remember well so i didn't know if there was some kind of connection there but that was i don't know just where i just remember waking up was just a heavy thing but it just could have been two things on my mind four. Yeah maybe but i like linking those two things. I think it's very creepy. These are pets that are from way back when and also pretty pretty current and if you after listening to this have some helpful pet stories. Not just ghost pets. I'll take a helpful pet story. D me i don't care to start first with the demon cat of dc. The united states capitol building is said to be haunted by the ghost of a demon cat which sounds bad. it sounds bad. This legend or story or tale dates back to at least the nineteenth century and again demon sounds bad glowing. Red eyes is bad. Appears out of nowhere to scare people. Also bad but says steve livengood the chief tour guide of the us capitol historical society. It may go back to post-civil-war area people would see this cat. The most common version of the legend goes that a guard was on patrol one night when he saw black cat approaching in these days. Cats were not an uncommon sight in the building introduced to control the rodent population. However as the came closer it grew in size until it was as large as a tiger. The monster cat pounced on the guard. Who fell down tried to protect himself and then as he was scrambling to get this tiger cat off of him. The creature just vanished into thin air so sure bad crazy scary but even weirder thing about the stephen cat is that it appears before important events or natural disasters. That's the helpful part. It was seen before the stock market crash of nineteen twenty nine and the assassination of president kennedy in nineteen sixty three a couple of features in the capitol building are said to be evidence of the demon cats existence. The most famous of these is group of shallow paw prints in the concrete of the small senate returned. This is real. You can find pictures online of this in eight hundred ninety eight. The capitol building was damaged by a gas explosion and according to livengood in some spots the original stone was replaced by concrete. It's quite possible that a cat walked across the wet concrete. He says just enough to leave some impressions. It's as you come out of the old supreme court chamber. There may be six or eight pretty clear ones. That goes care not helpful in another part of the building. Livengood also notes that the letters d. c. have been scratched into the concrete. Everyone says that's the demon cap needs initials there. I don't want to catch. They can write english but sure the more rational explanation for the demon cat is that capital guards would get so drunk. They'd fall down so when one of the buildings cats came lick their face. They assumed it must have been larger monster-sized or something but when the guardian question reported there you know. Kind of cat encounter to a superior. The boss couldn't really disciplined him for drinking. Because you know people drink so the guard would simply have been sent home to. I don't know work off their hangover. Take some ibuprofen than the other guards realized that if they see the cat and get attacked they get a day off and gets to sleep it off. And that's how stories get written with very lax labor laws. The washington dc female roller skating team. The demon cats is named after this cat. So you know problematic but very helpful so if you see this cat when you're on on dc tour when we get to do tours at some point in our future maybe something bad. It didn't predict anything in two thousand twenty though so i will say that remains to be seen have another week. The cat nursery. School teacher debra cabinet. Had this cat name. Wiki who unfortunately passed away grief stricken. She called an animal. Communicator named sharon kalugin. Who still practices. Look up to contact the spirit. Of wigan as deborah recounts wigan. I have a very close relationship. And i felt as if i had lost a child. He'd seen me through a marriage divorce other relationships. Three house moves and other life experiences. Didn't want to get into it. But other life experiences. Sharon was able to reach wigan in the great beyond and told deborah that we was concerned about her apartment because it was a quote toxic place about your later decided to paint her apartment and discovered specis and highly toxic mold in the walls and ceiling and really bad aluminum wiring. Which would have been a danger and may have caused a fire. So deborah is forever grateful twiggy. Only to this day. I can't believe how accurate and true that reading was pretty good. Thank you gigi. Thank you pet psychic sharon kalugin. But let's move onto ghost dogs preston. The ghost dog protector pressed in the ghost. Dog is a boxer who haunts nashville's belmont hillsboro neighborhood. Apparently he protects young trick or treaters every halloween which is very helpful. Winces have heard barking on halloween night. Other safety walked slowly or stop in the middle of the street. The dog preston will bump and nudge along. So you don't get hit by a car or danger of anything. An old woman who lived in the neighborhood used to leave a dog biscuit for pressed on her porch every halloween night for so many years. That's very nice. How would this one the blue ghost dog. The blue ghost dog might be one of the oldest ghost stories in the united states. Dating back to the seventeen. Hundreds as the story goes maryland. Revolutionary war soldier charles. Thomas simms was attacked by a pack of thieves after a night of drinking and bragging about the amount of gold. He had one of those listening. Was port tobacco. Maryland resident henry hino's when sims left the bar hainault since some others followed him. They overtook sims and his dog along rose hill road attacking him and killing both sims and his dog. They fell on iraq. There are other bodies. Were on a rock near the road. Hannah's took the fortune the gold. I guess that was on this man's person and buried it beneath a nearby holly tree and fled but when hands tried to retrieve his treasure sims dog dead wouldn't have it. The legend says that the ghost of a large blue dog appeared howled and charged at heinous. Once again he fled. The scene could not grab his buried fevered gold he also reportedly fell ill and died suddenly shortly thereafter. So if you go to this place. Rose hill road in maryland. Look for the rock where simpson his dog are sedova murdered and you can go there and night. Listen for barks and try to find some buried treasure. That's a fun tourist activity kovin friendly to if you have any stories of helpful ghosts. Dogs cats birds turtles koi fish. Humans we would love to hear them. If you weird strange history as much as i do than i have the podcast for you. I'm jason horton host of strange year each episode. I break down the strange history and cultural happenings during that year. Like nine hundred seventy seven. The wow signal. Nine hundred sixty three three tramps theory eighteen forty four miller lite movement nine hundred ninety seven. The phoenix lights 1896. The shortest war two thousand four. Benjamin kyle fifteen eighteen the dancing flake nineteen five the move bombing nineteen seventy-two remote viewing. Get your weekly weird history fixed. Pause the podcast. You're listening to right now and subscribe to strange year wherever you listen to podcasts.
The First Transatlantic Telegraph Message / Dole Air Race - August 16
"Today's episode is brought to you by oxy clean. So I just moved to a new home, which means that I just did a lot of cleaning and one of my least favorite places to clean is the bathroom shower fortunately ahead, oxy clean versatile stain remover which meant getting in those next in crevices and getting into that dirty grout made the job super easy. You've got to try oxy clean versatile stain remover for yourself to work your magic with oxy clean go to oxy clean dot com slash try me in order a free sample that's oxy clean dot com slash t. r. y. m. e. for a free stain fighting sample while supplies last. Dr Wendy Walsh host of the podcast mating matters I believe nearly every human behavior is motivated by a desire for love. Love the romantic Indians I believe in happy endings sex sometimes find myself looking for reasons to have sex or to hedge reproductive odds of always been very active. Explore how are ancient brains are interacting with the modern world listened to mating matters on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast. Hey, y'all eve's here doubling up today with two events in history one for me and one from former host Tracy v Wilson on with the show. Welcome to this day in history class from how stuff works dot com, and from the desk of stuff you missed in history class. It's the show where we explore the past one day at a time with a quick look at what happened today in history. Welcome to the PODCAST I'm Tracy. Wilson, and it's August sixteenth on this day in eighteen fifty eight, the first messages were sent along the First Transatlantic Telegraph cable. So, you're listening to a podcast that means you can probably socked people and a lot of the world instantly, but it really wasn't all that long ago that getting a message from one side of the Atlantic to the other required you to put somebody on a boat with a letter in their hands or maybe telling somebody just hoping they would remember it by the time they got to the other side of the ocean. And then getting to the point of even thinking about transmitting a message along some kind of a wire across the ocean that required somebody to invent a communication system that would work that way. The man that gets a lot of credit for that is Samuel F. B. Morse, in eighteen, twenty nine he was on his way back from a trip to Europe where he had gone to try to recover from the deaths of his parents and his wife and he struck up a conversation with Charles Thomas Jackson in which they talked about ideas for transmitting messages along cable using an electrical current based on the work of other inventors. Once he got home Morris and his partner Alfred Vail worked up a prototype for a telegraph machine and the system of communication that it would use, which was, of course, later known as Morse Code. There were tens of thousands of miles of telegraph lines all across North America and Europe before people ever started talking about running one across the ocean financier Cyrus West field was the driving force behind this in the United States. Starting in eighteen, fifty four. He started the New York Newfoundland and London Telegraph Company and it took six months just to make the cable. The cable was huge a mile of it. Weighed about a ton and it was divided up between two ships which left the coast of Ireland's together in eighteen, fifty seven and the idea was that one ship which was the Niagara with lay down its line of cable and when it ran out, the HMS Agamemnon would connect the end of its cable to the other end of the one from the Niagara and then finish the rest of the way. Things went pretty well with his plan for about six days, and then the cable snapped and both ships had to go back to port and they had to make more than four hundred miles of new cable to make up for what having been lost when they tried again, they tried a different approach both ships started in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean connected. There cables and started in the opposite directions that did not work. The cable broke almost immediately they tried again again, the cable snaps they kept on going over and over and after so many failures. Finally, four ships met in the middle of the Atlantic on July twenty ninth of eighteen, Fifty, eight, two of the ships headed in each direction and finally nothing broke. All the ships got to where they were going the line was complete on August fifth and on the sixteenth of August the first message went along at what it said quote directors of Atlantic Telegraph, Company Great Britain to directors in America Europe and America are united by Telegraph Glory to God in the highest on earth peace and goodwill toward men the next. Day Queen, Victoria and President James. Buchanan traded their own very long winded telegraph messages. It was none of this arrived stop safe stop it went on and on and took seventeen minutes to transmit. This is really a temporary victory. The cable wasn't strong enough operators on both ends. We're trying to figure out how to use the right voltage without having a good way. To Talk to each other about what they were doing in real time and for a time that voltage way too high and stress to the cable it stopped working on September eighteenth of eighteen, fifty eight after it had successfully carried about four hundred messages. But this is really a story of try try again more cables followed including better and faster ones and then. Other methods of communication. But this is really the start of global communication network. You can learn more about the first Transatlantic Telegraph Cable on November Nights Twenty Sixteen episode of Stuffy missed in history class thanks Atari Harrison for audio skills. On these episodes you can subscribe to this day in history class on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, and wherever else you get your podcast. Tomorrow we're going to get into a huge miscarriage of justice. Did you know GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent on top of what Gyco could already save you. So you're waiting for your baby to let you sleep in. Oh what We sleep in another half hour. Thanks Sweetheart. And you'll change yourself to. There's never been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit GEICO. Dot Com for details. Hey I'm andy if you don't know me it's probably because I'm not famous but I did start a men's grooming company called. Harry's the idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades. Most brands were overpriced over designed an out of touch at Harry's our approach is simple. Here's our secret. We make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars each we care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like a world class German blade factory. Obsessing, over every detail means we're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made the switch to Harry's. So thank you if you're one of them and if you're not, we hope you give us a try with this special offer get a Harry starter set with a five Blade Razor waited handle shave gel and a travel cover offered just three bucks plus free shipping. Just go to Harrys DOT COM and enter four, four, four, four at checkout. That's Harrys. Dot Com code four, four, four, four. Enjoy. Hi I'm Eve. Welcome to this day in history class. A show that reveals a little bit more about history day by day. The Day was August Sixteenth Nineteen twenty seven. A flying competition organized by James D Dole founder of the Hawaiian Pineapple Company began. Pilots entered the competition in the hopes of winning the prize money and a little fame. But the DOLE air race as it was known began and ended in tragedy. The nineteen twenties were still the early days of airplane aviation. Navigation was rudimentary and safety standards were nowhere near where they are today. People had already completed nonstop cross ocean fights in May of nineteen twenty seven just three months before the Dole Air Race Charles Lindbergh took the first solo nonstop transatlantic flight from new. York. To Paris. Driven by Lindbergh's upliftment James D Dole set up an air race for pilots to fly from Oakland. California to Honolulu Hawaii. He offered twenty five thousand dollars to the pilot who made it their first in ten thousand dollars to the person who came in second place. Not long after Dole offered the prizes for the trip to army pilots successfully flew from Oakland to Hawaii who but Dole's prize for making the trip from Oakland to Honolulu still stood Thirty three people entered the competition and fourteen entrance for chosen for starting positions after inspections. The competition. Though was off to a bad start even before the air race was scheduled to take place. Lieutenants, George Walter Daniel Colville and Richard Stokely. Wagner left North Island Naval Air Station in San. Diego. On August tenth headed for Oakland Field. Less than fifteen minutes later, they ran into heavy fog and crashed into cliffs. Both of the officers died. British Aviator Arthur Vickers was out for a test fight when his plane crashed not long after takeoff from Montebello California on August. Eleven Another airplane called Miss Doran had to make an emergency landing after having engine trouble. And the pride of Los Angeles on his way to Oakland crashed into the San Francisco Bay. The people in those two airplanes were not hurt. By August sixteenth eight planes and fifteen competitors were left in the running that morning they all lined up ready for takeoff in front of. Of around, one hundred, thousand people. Their starting positions were selected by a random draw. The Oklahoma was the first plane to take off, but it soon had engine trouble and it's flight had to be aborted. Ellen Condo did not even make it to take off. The Path Co Flyer crashed on takeoff lifting into the air briefly only to crash again after a second attempt. Nobody on board these planes were hurt. The Golden Eagle, took off without issue the airplane missed Goren took off returned after engine trouble and later took off again successfully. DALLAS, Spirit carrying pilot William Portwood Erwin and navigator Alvin Hanford. I quilt took off but returned to Oakland soon after. The planes Aloha and will Iraq took off without a hitch. Only two planes made it to Hawaii Aloha and we'll rock. We'll Iraq arrived after a twenty six hour seventeen minute flight and Aloha made it after twenty, eight hours in sixteen minutes. The other two that took off successfully Golden Eagle Animists Dorin disappeared in their crew were never found. Irwin and I quote repaired airplane Dallas Spirit, and went to assist in the search for the disappeared planes. They also disappeared and were never heard from again. Four competitors had completed the race but ten people had died. The First Trans Pacific flight was completed in nineteen, twenty, eight, and Clyde at Pangbourne and Hugh Herndon flew the first nonstop transpacific flight in nineteen thirty one. I'm used coat, and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, you can find us at T D. I eight podcasts on twitter instagram and facebook tune in tomorrow for another day in history. For more podcasts from iheartradio vis, the I heart radio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Today's episode is brought to you by meow mix looking for cat food with chart topping taste head to target and pick up your mix the cat food causing purdah ammonium everywhere with one hundred percent complete and balanced nutrition for various life stages shop with target circle and save fifteen percent meow mix cat food the only one cats ask for by name. Guys is bobby bones host, Bobby Jones show, and I'm pretty much always sleep because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple hours. Later, I get all my friends together. So we get into a room and we do a radio show share our allies we tell our stories we try to find as much good in the world if he possibly can, and we look through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country artists are always stopping by the hang out and share their lives and music to. Wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W. MC q in Washington dc or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP.
That Time Ancient Monks Waged War Over A Copyright
"This episode of ridiculous histories brought to you by insomniac monster. Presents insomniac is not your typical true crime podcast. It's an all new show from iheartradio you and tender foot t._v. That delves into unknown and raw territory. The main focus is on a series of lesser known killers the ones that don't get nearly as much airtime. I'm as the usual characters think of things like the i seventy strangler the candyman just to name a few however insomniac is not stopped there. You see it's also about the host my good friend scott. Benjamin and howie never expected that these monsters would follow him home at night and even crawl into bed with him but don't take my word for folks listening subscribed to monster presents insomniac at apple podcast on the iheartradio app or wherever you find your favorite shows ridiculous histories of production of iheart radio <music> <music> <music> welcome to the show ridiculous historians. Thank you so much for tuning in now. It is no secret that <hes> this this show which we very much enjoy making is not just a bunch of fun for us. It's it's also literally our jobs which means we deal with some very strange. Legal situations going somewhere with this. My name's ben. My name is no ben. Have you ever heard of the band negative lands <hes> yeah i think so yeah what do they do. They have a song called copyright. Infringement is your best entertainment value. Maybe it's not a song but it's definitely a slogan of theirs. I used i have a t shirt but <hes> they were notorious for <hes> uncleared samples that piss people off <hes> quite a lot. They made an album called u._2. <hes> on the cover the element has the letter u and the numeral two and then negative land very small at the bottom and they were sued by the band you too <hes> but this actual album contained clips of famous radio deejay casey kasem <hes> these outtakes were he's doing a dedication to a song for someone's dead dog not to be confused with super producer casey peg report yeah that's right casey familiar with the letter u and the numeral i am indeed yeah and the dog's name is fluffy and you hear him getting riled up in between takes cakes resign. These guys are from england and who gives you know. Casey kasem in is non in hearing him and his non joe viola kind of worst was a lot of fun but <hes> copyright right infringement is a big part of what we do not infringement specifically but avoiding being sued. Shall we say yes. Yes so few a few years zero. I made a rookie mistake on an episode of car stuff with my good pal my right eye scott benjamin and we saying angus snatch of the birthday song on the air now the birthday song. It's exactly the song you're thinking of is a aqa. It has copyright has legal protection which is why you never hear it on sitcoms for instance or even high quality television shows shows like breaking bad or something like that. You'll hear you'll hear something else. It's because you have to legally pay someone to use that music and now a days copyright. Law is something that we associate more with the modern age and i'm saying modern age as in lake the last last two hundred years a butts. Today's episode is about a much older version of a copy right scrap grab and no it's not about the mouse and how the mouse effects copyright law mouse the z. mount key yeah <hes> this is about this is about a entirely different story and and it's pretty old. I was surprised by how long ago this occurred. I was too but in order to talk about historic copyright law we have to i discussed something called the statute of anne which was passed in seventeen ten in great britain and the united kingdom <hes> and before this statute was passed publishers had an absolute monopoly <hes> but statute of an <hes> did what very much what the idea of a public domain kind of does so twenty one years of publishing rights for the copyright holder and and the idea was to promote the printing of new material but the idea of copyright as existed way before even this historic doric copyright law around five sixty a._d. We have a story that actually involves a sort of a mini war a skirmish. I guess you could say based around copyright <hes> and it all had to do with the ownership of particular book of psalms or a psalter are known as the catholic church <hes> which is one of the oldest surviving hand written manuscripts in ireland and this beef was between between two saints canonized monks of the catholic church in ireland saint columba and saint finian. That's right nowadays and even back back. During the days of the statute of anne copyright infringement will land you in court. You'll have to pay fines and fees. You probably won't go to jail. You probably won't be physically injured in this case. Thousands of people would die. Saint finian and saint columba went head to head and it was all over the ownership of a copy of that that salter the you mentioned earlier knoll now this <unk>. I wish pronunciation tricky for us because we do not speak gaelic our cells. It's spelled c. h. A. c. h. car car coauthor. Yeah we heard <hes> well. Let's let's let's let the computer talk. This is from a phrase con kid car here. We go can't calm kit car. It's got a hat the yes that's kinda go. The reason. This book is is important. Is that today it is the oldest surviving manuscript written in ireland. It is attributed to saint columba lombok so the guy we call saint. Columba now was born calm. Kill or chrome kill in about five twenty. One you yeah a lot of names to like one of them was called them mick falen mc fergus which i i love. The lottery funds for nick sargus. It's a very lilting gentle thing to say and sill zillow was added to his first name because he spent so much time as a kid in the local church. The gaelic word for churches seals spelled c._i. L. e. that's that's right and combed fill or kill <hes> was it is actually translated to church dove in gaelic yeah so <hes> he was born in donegal ireland and he was a descendant of of <hes> clan o'donnell a royal descendant in fact and we'll just referred to him as saint columba from here on out because that's easier to say <hes> he spent most of his life literally with his nose in mm books <hes> studying in monastic schools in early christian ireland and he became part of a pretty important crew the twelve disciples of ireland who twelve very very learned gentlemen who studied under <hes> saint finian himself <hes> he also became a monk eventually and was a priest <hes> there we go player to has entered the game. Could you tell us a little bit about saint finian. Yes so saint. Finian of clonard is indeed player to also known as a clean erard e. r. a. i r. d. couldn't find that one on four zero or finian or finot nain <hes> and he he was one of the earliest monastic saints of ireland he lived from four seventy two five forty nine so again he was this very important teacher over for this group of very influential <hes> monks and scholars in ireland <hes> he would have been much older than them at the time <hes> of in question of the story <hes> he is thought to have been born in my show county carlow <hes> and he was himself placed under the care of another monk when he was <hes> we lad saint fourth cairn <hes> and that is the gentlemen who taught him the ways of the lord <hes> in wales actually probably also taught him to read yeah of course and that was a big deal because these manuscripts that we're talking about the whole notion of copyright <hes> very much hinges on on this <hes> thing we take for granted as the ability to read and you had to be studying under some very high level you know <hes> scholars in order to have that ability. It was a special skill. You know if we're just off the cuff. It was kind of like being able to fly a hot air balloon. You might know someone who could read or know someone who knows someone but you probably wouldn't be reading yourself finney and eventually kind of solidified his legacy by founding. Something called the clonard on r._t. Abby <hes> and that is where the twelve apostles of ireland studied under him in meath ireland. This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you by navy federal credit union. Navy federal has a mission to put members i by making their financial goals the priority it's true you can receive a lifetime of membership benefits to help you and your family accomplish. Those important life missions a credit card a._p._r. Four percent lower than the industry's member only exclusive rates discounts in perks access to over three hundred branches and thousands of fee free a._t._m.'s. This is open to active duty military the d._o._d. Veterans wins and their family members navy federal is proud to serve over eight million members including over a million veterans and their families visit navyfederal dot o._r._g. For more information again that's navyfederal dot word insured by n._c._u._a. Sink colombo was an honor student in the world of the seminary. He was constantly praying. Not when i say constantly praying not being hyperbolic he was always praying or writing this guy wrote three hundred books over the course of his life and when we say rights we also mean original works when we mean transcribing existing works which was which was something that quite a few people did in in this industry he was leading what some authors have called the book digitization of his day at d'oro he and his team of monks copied every every single sacred texts they could get their hands on and something strange happened around five sixty a._d. Columba columba and his mentor finian came at odds. You see clump ahead acquired a new psalter book of psalms and he copied it and he you said okay i've copied it. I'm gonna keep my copy of the work. In saint finian said owned no no no no no no no no no my friend. I don't think you can do that belong to him. In the first place and columbus said why why can't i do this. The argument goes all the way up to to the king. The dispute eventually leads to something. I will woefully mispronounce the battle of c. u. L. d. r. e. i. m. h. in e the battle of cold dreaming so here's how it all went down saint columba copies the sault alter saint finian says you can't do that and of course we should mention at this time. These guys aren't saints. They are holy men but they have not been canonized beautified so on yeah you don't ever refer to a person that's alive as a saint right. That's that's cesary. Exclusively a posthumous thing not officially right so they take this argument to the the king and columba says it belongs to me because i copied it. Finian says it belongs to me 'cause i own the original book. He couldn't have made a copy without <unk> out my book therefore i should have both of them and in a shamlan plot twist the king gives this following judgment to every cow belongs her calf therefore to every book belongs. It's copy. That's not what i was expecting. That doesn't really jibe with the modern day you know <hes> columbus says well i disagree with that and he doesn't walk away and kick rocks instead he instigates a rebellion against i the king so imagine going to a court whatever kind of <hes> y whatever kind court case you might be involved in something that is not concerning violence or anything. It's intellectual property i._p. And then getting so angry about what the judge decrees that you decide to overthrow through the country which is which is what he attempted to do he did successfully get a plan together to try to overthrow the king. It's pretty interesting it. Actually there were a few other little things thrown in the mix that led to the series of events. Oh yeah finney city didn't give permission right for it to be copying not only why did he not give permission like he yeah exactly they were living under the same roof at the time and <hes> it's a little interesting and you don't have the details as to why he didn't ask for permission because has he would've taken an awful long time to transcribe this because we've actually heard that some accounts that it is actually a gaelic translation of the bible the entire bible so to do that by hand. He would've taken ages and he had to do it at night. Without the persons knowledge <hes> so i'm a little confused refuses to why he didn't just ask the just a real pill as you would say with his property and he's like no. It's mine. What's mine is mine. You can't have it but i thought their whole thing. Their whole goal goal was to make these tax available more broadly so confused as to why finian was being such a such a jerk about the rights of proselytize the spread read the word of god but even before this beef happened there was a beef between <hes> between columba himself and the king because <hes> he gave refuge to escape political prisoner and <hes> then the king diarmaid <hes> actually went against chance there established laws of sanctuary at least their customs and <hes> he had the escapee captured and executed and then put columbus uh himself under house arrest <hes> at which point columba tricks the guards escaped and went back to his hometown interior ear canal where he then heard that the king was actually pursuing him quickpoint there though this idea of tricking guards and escaping doesn't make make a lotta sense if you think about it. I think there was some more to the story. I think was bribery. It happens a lot even in the modern day. When you hear about people escaping yeah in <hes> you know in this celera the <hes> maybe a dodgy chaotic country that's true but the idea of a little bit more of like a caper kind of like escape. Maybe a disguise of some sort. It's a lot more fun to picture than just like slipping the garden. You know some some coin and this is all wrapped up in the beef with the copied text as well. This was the that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. I guess it was the pretext. This text was the pretext for the war desire. The battle title rather and this battle which occurs in five hundred sixty one eighty leads to according to sources you could ballpark at up to three thousand is in deaths. It's not said explicitly who won the battle but here's the thing it was columba who got punished for. It's so i feel like we can safely bet the king one that skirmish and people were deciding what they would do to punish columba even talked about excommunicated him which was eight huge deal instead they let him stay a part of the faith and he was forced to leave leave ireland and he was given the task to convert as many people to christianity as had died on the day of that battle so up to three thousand thousand people if he wanted to properly pay his penance yeah he took this quite seriously <hes> and he took off from ireland and settled on the isle of ona off the west coast of scotland the mainland scotland and there he set up and he set himself up a monastery and you may aby familiar you may that may ring a bell the isle of iona because that is where many of scotland's kings were buried including <hes> potentially macbeth beth so he had twelve pow's <hes> travelling companions with him <hes> and he settled in five sixty three and began the work of putting putting together this monastery in converting folks to christianity him. This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you by the vitamin adam and shop. It's often said that every journey needs a compass and that's what the vitamin shoppe is. It's here to guide you on your way to becoming your best self. They've got virtual nutritionist attrition est in-store wellness coaches and more always on hand to help you hit those goals. They introduce you to cutting edge products an expert guidance the vitamin vitamin shoppe. You're only competition is who you were yesterday and just for tuning into the show. If you use cooed some twenty-five you can save twenty five percent on all your best self supplies at vitamin shoppe dot com. That's s. h. O. p. p. e. or stop by the vitamin shoppe stored near. You knew minimum purchase necessary so i own a becomes the center of columba's second act his his redemption story right his redemption song. If we want to quote marley he works tirelessly teaching the holy word the gospel he goes all across scotland attempting to convert the northern pick dish people <hes> one legend comes out of his adventures and that's that he actually sleep met nessie the loch ness monster and scared it away by making the sign of the cross as the creature approached his career was not over he went on to greatness he became a roman catholic clergyman and he actually contributed did to the most famous ancient irish manuscript the book of kells which you can go see today at trinity tulsa really delightful children's the animated film it's true but even that was not enough to get this stain of copyright beef off of his record off of his c._v. He returned to his native land just one more time before he died and he passed away on june ninth five ninety seven in i am gonna which he had become quite fond of yeah you definitely have made this as second home and it sounds to me like he didn't live a life of exile and shame i mean he he went on to do really great works and became a very revered figure in the history of roman catholicism right yeah and he was sort of a proponent of what we would call now copy left. Have you heard of this. No copy left. Is this arrangement where software or creative creative works can be used modified distributed freely on the condition that anything created by it is bound by the same condition. You know what i mean i i. I think that's a great way to pursue innovation and i also do want to mention one thing about saint columba all right so i'm really patron saints i. I'm fascinated by the idea. I want to your favorite patron. Saint especially their patron of something obscure sink club is one of the three patron saints of orland. We all know the most famous saint patrick writers but he's also the patron saint of dairy the town e. r. y. Not like milk and cheese no no no no. He's not that cool floods book binders poets and scotland. What about saint finian you may ask. He is is the patron of the diocese of meath. I would say that columba <hes> came out ahead there <hes> and that's what you get for bogart in tax texts you know and being a a jerk about letting people copy your stuff. You know i'd say that <hes> <hes> generosity is a very important <hes> thing when it comes to sharing books you know i mean ben. You're a very very well known book. Lender you love for people to experience things that you yourself have enjoyed royd and found a culturally enriching and he met some very important thing when it comes to the stuff so you know be on the right side of history. Let people borrow books right be be the library wished to see in the world to paraphrase gandhi actual that actually worked out and hey oh you know we haven't said that it yet. We've got a birthday month coming up for the three of us as well as our powell matt. Frederick's wild all of us. Yeah yeah is it. We're in the midst of it right now. <hes> casey myself you ben and matt all our leo's leo's rigaud. What get out sorry. I'm i'm more month oriented. I don't see a lot of legalistic traits but also full disclosure. One of my first freelance. Writing gigs was writing a horoscope column and <hes> the editor hired me because i said i didn't think there was much to it and that it would be easy to write vague horoscopes but i got out of it ned. I have a lot of respect for people who do believe it as a sort of psychological logical evaluation but i don't know i don't know if you could look at the four of us and said well. We have a lot in common with human right. We have the same number of limbs true. That's i don't know personality wise. I've always found <hes> i've observed that there are some pretty interesting traits <hes> that you can associate with people's personalities that are predicted by astrology but confirmation bias thing that always throws a wrench into the rise there yeah or what if we're messing with people's personalities from the a day that they can understand language by telling them. That's their personality yeah. I don't know about all that i i i've always been fascinated by it and found some stuff that was pretty interesting for me but you know we welcome all perspectives when it comes with everything <hes> and here's an interesting little tidbit to wrap on in one thousand nine hundred fifty seven there was an archaeologist and britain it named charles thomas who <hes> excavated this wooden hut on the isle of iona and believed without any way to prove it that it belonged to saint columba columba <hes> and only just recently in two thousand seventeen a team of historians belonging to historic environment scotland did radiocarbon dating on some of the samples that were found in nineteen fifty seven during that excavation and they found pieces of something called hazel charcoal that they were able to date date back a fifteen hundred years to a time when columba was absolutely in the thick of his. I own a day's cool. I'm so there you go so he did. Did he did live there he did those radiocarbon dated the site back about fifteen hundred years two time when columbia was absolutely living there so there's definitely it would have been as high and this would have been the time where he was spreading christianity. The pick dish people of the scottish isles that would have been more of a celtic polytheistic ali theistic religion almost almost into something new refer to as paganism celtic polytheism probably often depicted as a <hes> druids or something in in popular mass media but i think it's always a wonderful and inspiring thing when we are able to connect these ancient stories with true physical artifacts do a little bit of object journalism <hes> which have to talk about later really into this thing now i will see in the defense in the defense of horoscopes astrology and other torts of psychological batteries of for anyone who may be concerned that <music>. I'm poo pooing it or throwing out the baby with the heavenly bathwater. I do want to say one thing. That's been creepy for. Most of my life always ended updating aquarians. I don't know why i seriously think there was maybe one exception middle-school aquarius is. I think it's aquarians. Is i guess so yeah. I never thought about that and did you ever hear about that that thirteenth astrological sign that was found. It's a story for another day casey. Do you remember that one. I don't remember this now. My gosh you guys. It's a true story but we don't have time for it today. Thank you so much for tuning in what are are your favorite patron saints. What are they patrons of bonus points. If it's super obscure and hey no what would you be the patron saint of probably procrastination patron saint of progress the asian. I like a like a casey. I'm gonna put you on the spot because i know you hate that so let's just call you the patron saint of not being put on the spot for today house. That's there you go. I love that and what would you be. The patron saint of let us know we're. We're on facebook. We're on instagram where twitter <hes> you can catch me on my personal instagram at ben bolan or on twitter where i'm at ben bullen h. w. I mainly just rocked the instagram at how now brown another fun place to get in touch through our facebook group dickens historians you can do that by searching for ridiculous historians on facebook and you have to answer a simple question. <hes> named one of the members of the show could be me could be bennett could be superstar. Casey peg graham could be jonathan strickland could crisscross ios could just be a fun little joker upon yeah yeah if you honestly if you make me laugh you're right absolutely and do us a solid write us a <hes> a review on the podcast platform of your choice <hes> but but doing it through apple podcasts as always super helpful way of helping people discover the show yup every week. One of our bosses walks through the office dragging seen a heavy heads men's axe and if we don't get good reviews sometimes act swings. It's true. I mean not not like us. In a dangerous way h._r. Would never allow now just more like kind of an intimidating thing. He's sort of drags it across the screen down occasionally a wish you know but luckily we haven't actually been injured by this china but you can make sure that definitely never happens by writing those. I._t.'s guess so thanks to you for listening. Thanks super producer. Casey pegam thinks jonathan strickland that wraps gallia. That's that scoundrel we call the wister thanks to how it's williams who composed dr theme research associates gabe luger and ryan barish a thanks christopher haciendas here always in spirit and thanks to you bimbo and for for being a checkered convert wearing friend thinks you brown and thinks you columba for looking out for book binders. We'll see next folks for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to to your favorite shows would not rob story that you tell it to my daughter was beaten to death and katharine townsend hosted most of the true crime podcast helen gone and i'm heading back to arkansas on a new case to find out what happened to jamie ward on september ninth nineteen eighty nine. There's no justice done. It hurts a lot of people listen to hell and gone. That's h. E. l. l. and gone on apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
CIPYD 259: Mystery Dogsasters and Ghost Pups
"Is there a dull anna car out of BAR ON THE STREET Yay. That we really want to me. Hey Can I. CanNot get your your. With Rene and Get your dog Bernie Colbert a loner. I'm expressing a scruffy poodle owner and this is the pond Casper Unapologetic Dom Lovers Alexa good to see you. I was out of town last week and I can't remember when you. Know. Jimmy. Do on the weekends. Manifold full we it was I think the day before you left. Due. We're real quick. You left planning a full party packing. And recording all in one. Yeah. Now, I wish that was an exaggeration of any sort. Previous guests on the show. Wickens was leaving the company added to her show of distance. Party. Mostly because we lived Dan, personally because our baby. L.. Puppy Cams what are you GONNA do? You GotTa do. Yes memory also yes. That's like I. Are you GonNa Packer a header Or like plan. Anything gas for. Packing, no, I just it only because I get like weirdly stress where I'm like well, I can't pack. Yet I need I need my toothbrush like why would I pack now when I'm going to have to get that out So like I'll yeah, you know it's just never quite my brain doesn't quite work weight should for that. But planning I'm I'm medium for vacation I'm like. I knew like a couple of days where I know exactly what like There's a thing that we're going to do on such and such day. But then also if there's too many plans I, don't like that either. So. I think this trip out me learn. Minneapolis humour. Plans. Sure. I knew where I was going. Yourself out a little bit to a little bit extra planning. But I I think it's a combination of things. One is you don't want that like you're on vacation Wayne of it is that you want to be easy breezy. But then to that Adrenalin rush of being like bigger out on the fly by the state of my pants at feels so good. Good doing, and then you get to like be snug against the people who plan your it'd be a planning I say, hey, did without buying windbreaker. Thanks. It happened to be in the car. Now. Listen I want updates, but we have a whole segment dedicated to such thing. As, we should scoop Maluku on into there and I can here waiting for you to skip to my Lou yeah. Win. Win. A letter. Sweet listeners in on. We'll I mike. Do you guys I tunes Apple podcasts reviews? You're just being sweet little sweeties and when. I said Hey. You give me. Review Review you get so many sweet reviews when of. Just Wendy am about it just one. So I can't I want to review and how nice you review was but you gotTA. Do it maybe people are intimidated by the term review where they. Didn't like me after I got a lot of. S You says it was a good review out. Let me assure you. Make it five stars out a lot of accolades. A lot of superlatives going to be great. We can non the only one left is instagram, right? So you can do it your or tugboat what will also heavily movement that's more than if you if you review on Apple Podcast Y'all screengrabs sin at Disney world tugboat, and then we'll be happy to give you some compliments about. Is the thing that I would like to offer that's very kind and also I'm just going to say thank you so much. They make me cry almost every time I read them. It's Would you canal? You Know Hi, I'm working on not being self deprecating. Sure. Which I decided today in it didn't it didn't take stick. But which would you say maybe a little observed like some of it's a little jokes. Yeah. I mean. A hundred percent but maybe that's just imposter syndrome I don't know how. You're making points by tell you what I'm GonNa go work on. My imposters. Are you tell these sweet listeners what they've got themselves into this way, I would love to. So we have some crime bodey updates for you because tug went on a little trip. So we gotta hear all about tugs trip and I have to explain everybody how Rooney and crime can finally play in one specific way together. We have a little Halloween dog ghost stories for you because it is Tis the season as they say, of course Dog Jokes sent by Deborah, we have a my minute from story and Finn and I'm going to call it dog tech. Of a little dog tech will what would you can tap in entertainment? CHECKER tain -ment tekere Tim dog tech retainment human nature. It comes right off the tongue. Another good show it's going to be the JOE that's. Good. You. GotTa put that out. There is going to be good I promise. You know I would love to hear nothing more about how ratings are dealing in this segment that we're in right now I'll. I'll look at that we're in the segment. We're here we're here we've arrived. They can play in one specific way they yes. Okay. So I finally. We've done it. We've unlocked the code out update on Rooney. Is that I think she does have a home but not available for another week or so. So now she's having fun us. joined job excellent brush. That's an easy thing to sometimes it can be nice work. Thank you. What here's the here's the big. The biggest news of all is that anger the way that they can play is if there's a full-size tennis ball that they both want to play with. I. Usually, it takes crum- crumbling get engaged in the Rooney's like wait you know what I want that tennis ball I realize. We're fun I want to play with it. So then Rooney. Hold her mouth and crumb tries to get it from her and they can do this for probably an hour straight but it works because really can't bite him because she has a tennis ball in her mouth. And it is just it's such a relief you go. Wow because she holds onto it tight she's not let him get it she. Tries to bite him with the tennis ball in her mouth like nugget on him but. Not, not not not notes I. Think we could work with this completely for an hour you say an hour straight I mean puppy. So she's she's ready to go you know. Crumbs. I. Love this so much. Do you have enough tennis balls need to fix them up for if they are dwindling because that's another thing is like I forget how powerful a bigger dog is because chrome has had the same tennis balls since the day I got him. They just he's so delicate. He holds them by like the fibers the tennis ball. And Rooney just shot. and. So they're getting smaller is what I've noticed every tennis ball shrunk. Which is the Like about right. Will you get posted? As you know the little do goes by a At a genus. Walls. Over every now and again and a not there's not one it's made at home is destroyed back quickly. Yeah. Right. It's perfect one pocket gender. Easy Irving pockets of that's why we all play. I'm tell me about tug in yours trips but mostly. You now I would love nothing more as we went out to Columbia River, gorge and the reason I off. My does so many incredible listeners in Oregon everyone was so nicely numerous people were like you gotta check out this. So kind. So Gracious I. Definitely agree because when needed bridgetown up in Portland we had so many little sweetie amount but I knew we had a lot of listeners out there. So he criminals like we should you like some sort of meet at. How you do that included. So we'll come back. We'll will countback when you're allowed to be around people again will live. We'll get it figured out but this time I googled, where do I find fall foliage and it told me Columbia River Gorge so upwards we went. From a few weeks early. Little yellow young lingering. On a quarter crispbread but I tell you what those waterfalls a worth it just. Pretty. So Great. So I was there for three days the first day it was like a store ton ten of rain ten power was out like. Just just real real looped Isaac Vacation Destination Horse of course. I the police were staying had a little backyard. So take flop in the Vita they are. We went on a few little David. It was just like it was crazy windy We'll do it tomorrow. Suzanne the next DAY WE WENT ON A. Is supposed to be a six mile. High. Around trip Roger. So ass or curving the band, it was incredible. The waterfalls are amazing texts having the best time. We add one little tiff that wouldn't let him jump down. Love Anatomy. Passed it. Instead of so coming around the bend at it, I don't think I'm exaggerating it five point, five miles the storm that happened the day before had A. Class. The trail and then a bunch of rock and it was just closed. You head turn back. So my my sweep up who isn't much of an endurance for was already pushing it to do six miles, and then we had a little sit down be like eight. Six. You gotta go back. L. But he was in good sport about it as we came back around and then Alexis this is where my adventure turns into a dog faster. It's mysterious dogs astor So I was walking lot and he was on the leash the whole time I definitely think I've learned that like you just this is not a popped off the leash We haven't run into anybody this entire time because this is a little windy rainy and cold. So for like twenty minutes, I was just like you. Can't you can't All The Times in my life or people just trusted me with the project they believed in me they giving me a chance to prove to them I. was just like. Yeah, decided I should give him a chance. Give him the chance. So take him off a leash. He so good. He's so good for like twenty minutes. He goes. About Twenty minutes and then we hear Russell Russell, the breeze arrest in the branches and he is just gone. Gone and I tell you what you do. You take the way your parents would have parented. You my parents are real big anytime. They misbehave they just kept walking because it does kinda worry extra behavior it will come back around. So at that point I felt annoyed. Because I'm calling his name and he's not coming back. Come on. Tug. Yeah Right, I don't think of getting between five and ten minutes. He's just wow I'm just like walking down the trail call him his name here. Russell's so I know music. Yeah around. And then he just comes. We're not a big swears on this podcast but a type of granted requires swear is the title grade he's got no yesterday s something his down and he is so route attendance. So happy marriage just like you know what? What happens in Columbia River Gorge. Gorgeous five at their motto. Gore's as we keep walking and I was like towards the very end of the height another lady comes around. There's another way there. And she comes up and she goes your dog and. A little arrogant Famous. On instagram purse. So you think you do waiting for her to be like talk with. Him saying. He was off leash and On An I will send you the photo. We will posted online but I've never seen the way he like he was immediately like. He got so like just just as little little head on top of this pause download away. And this is where this nice lady who I thought was going to be turned into a little bit of A. Little bit more solden judd up boy of just like. Hiking I. Thought he just ran past me and then he ran pass me again and then he ran past me again. release. Something like he was he was after something and I don't know how that ended up. This point tends back on his light but over and over again she's like you know she keeps him on. We're we're there I hear Ya. Anne it's. Nice it and I was like up or supports with by about four Mosley Gary. Okay I'm sorry. Okay. All right. We got it. And men talk was. Well. Behaved for the last mile of the height is absolute. Just perfect just couldn't be better so I don't know what happened during those five or ten minutes. Karen does Aaron does and they set by there's something saw. Tedtalk ran past me and then asked me again. I can. stressed. Right. Yeah. Should not have let him uncle. You'll. slightly vindicated and that I did think about it. Yeah I definitely was conflicted. It's also like, yeah. I? Yes. I understand the risks and all that stuff, but it's like I don't know. I just wanted him to run for a minute. Yes Sumi we. Don't. Please don't please all please. No. So hopefully, all critters are okay. Yeah. The most part we have the best time ever, but then the next day had didn't couldn't get to do anything that's a long time and I do he was done because he got to avalon right or was done because he was tired. Thanks cozy it was tired. We had that one day was the very best day but we definitely both got drunk. Yes. You did I liked Uganda had matching like Ono face. Shoot I will I'll send it to you but also. The clerks. That's it. That's it for about this week. Alexis. Do you know what time it is what time is it? It is time for my month minute with story in. Fan. Hate it. My name is story and this is my minute about my stubborn sloppy boy fin. Fin is a four month old Basset Hound lab mix. He is black with white tips on his nose feet entail. He has yet to meet a dog or human. He doesn't like but his his favorite person is may two and a half year old daughter Sawyer. I think because she shares her toys with him. His favorite thing to do is go to the dog park at our apartment in wait for his best friend swayze in Miller to come fly, they could roll around for hours. His social demeanor walks difficult because everytime you see another dog or human in the hall or on the street, he just flops over I have dragon across the ground. Adding to a sloppiness are as big Bassett, hound ears and his giant pause which he trips over now, and it's going to be a big guy when he goes into them. Ben has been such a fun addition to our family and we love and so much already time. Exists Yeah how how is supposed to deal with that? I don't know I mean. I think I've started doesn't show but we had had. Three pounds in my life and they are the puppies are just. Doesn't seem fair that they're rescued as they are. It really doesn't. It is a then mixed with lab. We're photos sent in with us. Some, of course, of course. Oh No. Okay well. Obviously, we'll post these but get ready to lose. Your might here's what I think is so sweet about it the names. Yeah. Phenomenal. Got Friends named swayze and Miller. Of course. We have to make a movie out of that coming of age type of thing like something about fin fin swayze hanging out is. To Cute The best and listen that daughter sounds real kyun across the notes for this other than. Actually. Alexa take back I do have a note or would you like to hear it? Yes. Little too cute almost. Too Cute now I don't want to say a little together and say almost I almost couldn't handle. It just dug down deep your that was able to do with this. I. Believe in myself. Yeah. When else wanted to send him there by a minute? How could they do it if you've got a cute my mum minute go ahead and send that over to you. Can I pet your dog podcast at gmail.com recorded on whatever device you have your phone your very fancies zoom that you bought once in your what do I do with this record your momentum night and emailed to us played on the show. Perfect. Hello, their rules and gals. It is I a pro. I'm here to take you through the twisty scary heart pounding world of Genre Cinema on the exhilarating program known as switch lease. The concept is. I invite a female filmmaker on each week and we discussed their favourite genre film listen closely to hear past guests like the Baba duck director Jennifer Ken winter's bone director, Debra Granik, and so many others every Thursday on maximum fun dot Org tune-in if you did ED. It's actually a very thought provoking show that deeply explore the craft in philosophy behind the making process while also examining film to Lens of the female gaze so like you should listen switchblades history. This is Rachel Matt. Birth. Hello. This is Griffin mcelroy and this is wonderful. It's a podcast that we do as we we are married and how's it going so far because I think it's going. We, talk about things. We like every week on Wednesdays one time Rachel talks about pumpernickel. So tight, you cannot afford to miss chur talking about this sweet Brown bread. Music and poems, and you know whether there's one either one time Rachel talked about baby Beluga the song for like fourteen minutes and improve just really blew my hair back. CHECK US OUT MAXIMUM DOT ORG. It's a cool podcast with show five's amber is the color of our energy is what all the it reviews say. They will now. Yes. Yes what the clock is struck Joe what is the clock struck joke. I see the clock has struck joke yet. You me what time it was before I said, no, you said my minute but now time has passed destruct Joe, it's one error favorite times on the show. I gotTa tell Ya Joke. I will say doing the segment makes me like suddenly I get very nervous as if this is my stand up that I'm presenting you I Asia and you should I take it at that exact same level of judgment as as anyone would. Great. So pressures on. Me Laugh. Okay. So this comes deborah. and she said this has been her favorite jokes and she was a kid. Okay. Why did the man who had a dog with? No legs name him cigarette. I don't know because every day he took him out for a drag. It's a scary one for Halloween. This spooky is very spooky. Now, I don't like it but I did laugh it's funny. It's Funny and I? Yes. I would normally say. Too Far by an spooky month and also I imagine that he's being dragged on a very nice little pad and. Going to say, let's let's sort of you know flower this out a little bit gives more details that obviously it's like Aladdin and the red carpet or like any of US enjoyed. Going down the stairs on a sleeping Bagley is a cigarettes favorite part of the day. It's awesome. It's so accommodating he loves it so much and it's an and the leash is attached to the sleeping bag. Exactly. Yeah. So cigarettes is on for arrived with up and also like when he's going through the neighborhood everyone's like, hey, hey. So, good to see I'm having the best you've got some snacks with them as well. Yeah. Of course he's. Couldn't be more comfortable exactly great, and it's too long to say to take the sleeping bag out for a drag. Correctly. They've shortened it. They've got sort of a quick hand between the two of them executive. Perfect quit can't shorthand. Yeah. Either way they they got a quick shorthand. For Dog, couldn't be happier it perfect. Great. Your own. As well now, what time is it? Now it's time to get a little scary. spooky, spooky tax. So little warning these are dog ghosts. So a little dog goes stories. So I just want to warn everyone that we're dealing with some spooky docs. It's a spooky heels I would if you're listening to novel lights on. Guests. Good. Just to do a little dance in here is you hear Spooky Story, which is what I do when I watch any type of movie. There's a little bit scary turn on lights on just dance a little bit to sing okay. But also if you're like, you know what Tis the season Leonid turn off light a candle. See what happens let's see what you can handle either way. I'm reading here some Spooky Dog Ghost story. Okay? So the first one is the blue dog legend and this is to be the oldest go story in American history which is crazy. Yes. It days seventeen hundreds in Port Tobacco Maryland? which is the name of town not just two things I was thinking of. Okay So. Legend has it that late one night a man named Charles, Thomas Sims and govern with his faithful hound blue dog which that's the name of the dog. That's one of the story. Sims, proceeded to brag the locals like about how much Goldie had and he had lathered largest state. After a long night of drinking sins and his dog departed to be stopped by a man named. Henry. Hanikos who wanted to Rob Sims of his golden a fight ensued on those hill road and ultimately both Tim and blue dog were. killed. And however Hannah then buried Ebenezer time they were old. Botha died of a happy old age I was ninety five. It's crazy. Hannah's then buried. Simpson's gold under large Holly Tree on the same road where he planned to retrieve it once the desert settled. However when he returned to the tree some three days later he was scared off by the ghost blue dog who had returned to protect his master's treasure to this day. The local say that every February eighth the day after my birthday on the anniversary of the robbery blue dog can be heard howling by the tree and waiting for his master to return for his treasure. Now, that's a lawyer blog. That is a loyal dog. I love it. I love it so much that. I gotTa make a Happy Story Make It happen story. So listen the owners coming back and forth all over the place, but he's integrates directions. So the only time we're seeing this ghost is he's lost again back. He walked over there fighting for anyone no one sad it's a great spooky story. Great. Love IT I. Love It. Okay next the next story I selected because this dog name. Is Preston. Press in his last name in case nobody had it. Out The story goes that one Hallo almost fifty years ago president was walking with a group of trick or treaters when a little boy stopped to pick up the candy that had dropped on the road, the boy's sister went to pull him off. The street car approaching and pressing. Got There. I push the boy out of way but unfortunately was struck however, this is scary. Five's very old. He was very the coincidence of it. All is wild but. Here's the thing after making sure her brother was a k. the girl went back to look for Preston and he was gone. Now local say that every year on Halloween trick or treaters who wander to close the road have reported being bumped back onto the sidewalk but a gentle of Preston who has always diligently working up and down the neighborhood until all the lights go out every year. Press Dan I left now I'd like to say the knife maybe bumped into press in every now and and tell you what those these curves you know when you're walking on a curb and you just. Lost my footing and then he upsy-daisy backup that wasn't self. Propelled president just giving you a little here. She goes again. Here you go. Get back. We may decide what for a reason there you. Achey precedents and makes the sidewalks. Also, he's very busy dog. He's quite productive care dislike. I love my last one last wine. These are great. Did you find these online I google? Google around ghost stories. Pretty. I'm told say come right okay. Okay. So this I like because, yes, this one comes from. Christopher not who played Peter Brady in the Brady Punch, which is. Funny to me. Yes it is. It is very funny. Okay. Industries stories now that treks. Yeah. You know why not? So good old Christopher night he was staying at the House of his friend Mike I'm not GonNa say Mike's last name for some reason that feels to me. So He's saying Mike Dowse when he was visited by the Ghost of two hound dogs they appeared at the foot of his bed while he was sleeping and he walked fell there. Like breath on his face they're not medicine or scare me. But rather regal and calm night says they were also accompanied by a little girl who called to them from the doorway until they turned round and left the next morning night mentioned the docks who is friend who took him into the study showed him a portrait of two hound dogs. He used to live the property they looked identical. The dogs he saw in the bedroom and night remains convinced to this day they're checking on him while he slept. I love that just I like that I don't need to I mean I can. If you want they, they had a wild night of. libations. And he had specifically shown him that photo and the story the night before then in his dream. You won't like it man I told you that night. What are you talking about? I showed you those were my dogs I was telling you about. The bad listener. That's why that's fine. Bad Listeners ed clumsy. People. Would go stories are. I love the so much are so charming. Thank you so much for finding out more great work. Happy. Halloween Halloween. Now Alex is what I want to tell you is we what was accusing him of with tech, tech statements it it was didn't work is the problem so it's OK. Okay. I disagree I think it did the terror taint but I also I also could use it as a hey, go look this could also be the New York this category. So I don't follow Youtube I'm too old I'm too old. You knew it from the moment I introduced myself but. But. I have come across this girl over and over again she's amazing her name's Simone yet, and she does these really cool inventions a Lotta time she makes inventions that aren't supposed to work but do something else differently. But this week on her youtube channel, she's made a dog selfie booth. So the dog any pushes a button and it takes a photo and he gets a treat and is just she's so enchanting and engaging and the invention of it is so adorable dog super the pictures. All. Made. Entirely out of legos gap. Is. Sponsored by Wargo We still we still love Lego. We still love a Lego again. Simone yet S- is how it's pronounced but it spelled a Simone S., I M. O. N. E., e. G. I. E. R. T. Z.. I would've guessed said, yeah, I wouldn't either. But here's what I did is I put it into Youtube and then you my late night talk shows the one that starts with Steve. What's coral behavior? Yeah. He had her on and he pronounce her name that way. I felt like solving a riddle. It's a lot what it's like talking to me. Late night talk. Okay England starts with EST- city going forward. What you're trying to say to me well, have what? Maybe, who knows a he sherman now that'd be fun I'd like that right In this Textile okay. point is go check out this dog. It's very cute. Right now Alexis Votes we love him. We love him so much. We love those votes I put in my little ballot today we've got a ballot box it is. Maybe three hundred steps away. They made it so easy on me and it does feel so good to do away. But I didn't know because I was this is the first time I've ever voted early vote by mail and used a ballot box. And I did get a little like a little. How do you know if it works and of course they've got that for tracksuit just go and check it two or three days later and they're like we. We received it but I guess it varies from State to state. Yeah. So yeah, we're people go for that So for California, you can just go to SOS dot C. A. Dot Gov and then you can see yours and I'm sure every other state has a similar. Thing but in. Google voter. Stack. The. Ballot but more importantly it's just like, Hey, you can check on things because I know there's been a lot of scary things going on where people are like Oh that fired all the ballots. So just check it out and make sure that didn't happen to you. Yeah or I think even more of just like assure yourself like, oh, this is this is a system that were this is great I put it in. Then they got it it works we can trust it. Well Alexis we did it we did it made it to the end of another episode. So good seeing you I. Miss You. So mij- fame Thank you for being a POW because I think you know sometimes is a friend you need to have like a bit of an intervention and say. Hey. No you're wrong and sometimes it's past the time it doesn't matter. My dogs asked her was entirely my fault I definitely messed up. You were such a friend about it to be life. Just golden out I know going forward to never let him off leash I know. Yeah, you know. So I think like what you were saying about your like I news gamble I decided to try it didn't work. It didn't work. It would be weirder to me if you were like, yeah, and and you know what I'm GonNa do it again, I would be. Okay now through the intervention comes in. We can't do it. Yeah. Like, Hey, look you try to thing you learn. Gave it a shot live laugh love and then for again down. There so proud of you there. So proud of you for remembering their log line I got. You sure do okay. Well, I will see you I'll see you next week. Yeah I. Think so that worked for you. Do. Again I'll see you next week until then can I put your dog pet your dog Maximum Fund Dot Org Comedy Culture Artists don't audience supported.