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Phinsider Daily: A look at the Miami Dolphins depth chart ahead of their Week 3 dress rehearsal vs Jacksonville

The Phinsider

23:37 min | 1 year ago

Phinsider Daily: A look at the Miami Dolphins depth chart ahead of their Week 3 dress rehearsal vs Jacksonville

"A lorry wanna welcome to a special edition of finsider daily right here on the finsider part of the s._p. Nation network today's episode we break down the miami dolphins third depth chart short as we head into the week three dress rehearsal with the jacksonville jaguars. How will the quarterback competition play out between ryan fitzpatrick and josh rosen. How will the offensive seven defensive line shape up what will happen to the linebackers once comic known and kiko alonzo comeback from injury all the simone today's edition of finsider cider daily and hello again welcome to a special edition asian of finsider daily. I'm your host. Josh outs you can follow me on twitter at at haus h. o. u. t. z. and if i sound like i was whispering in the introduction it's because i am holding my three child in my arms <hes> quite a story there in case you were not listening to the flagship station the recap show after the dolphins oftens sixteen to fourteen loss to the tampa bay buccaneers. I'm basically what happen. Folks was. My wife. Oke me up in the middle of the night. It was around four thirty. She said she was getting some contractions into waking up right then and there waited for my sister-in-law to get down here <hes> she had to stop for gas because is my brother-in-law did not have the gas tank filled. She got to my house at about five fifty to five fifty five in the morning. This would have been thursday morning. The hospital is sixteen minutes away so as you can expect. Your boy drove really fast. Mach fifty was like a scene out out of the fast and furious. Yes the roxie bad actor. Yes vin diesels a bad actor so perhaps i am destined for the big scenes. Perhaps this curly hair. This charles charles manson looked at i do have is destined for the big scenes and i am a future star of the fast and furious franchise but all seriousness drove. They're giving me left the house at five fifty five and my wife gave birth at six fifteen so you can imagine if that was a sixteen minute drive how fast i was going. The water broke right before my very eyes while we were about five minutes away so as you can imagine quite scary but my wife is a champ. She's real m._v._p. She got me the home in time to watch the dolphins buccaneers game perfectly healthy baby girl so we are absolutely blessed so that is a story for you to listen to on your drive into work below. We're going to talk about today and again. Pardon me if i'm scatter brained. Pardon me if this is not the best episode i've ever done because for some reason i told sutton and cannot in august i would do today. I did not have more important things to do than sit here and record episode of finsider daily for all of our finsider maniacs actual thing. We'll pretend it is but today what we want to talk about is the dolphins upcoming depth chart versus jacksonville jaguars and i know i say jaguars weird. Please forgive me. Let's take a look at this and the biggest thing that stands out that ryan fitzpatrick was named the starter shortly after brian floors gay praised used him for what he did as a starter against tampa bay buccaneers. A lot of people are up in arms about this. A lot of people do not quite understand why ryan fitzpatrick is the starting in quarterback when he is a guy that many already know like the verdict is already out on ryan fitzpatrick so to some fans there just wondering why he is the start over a twenty two year old like josh rosen and it's quite simple look those first four games they got the baltimore ravens at home eighteen that they struggle with they play the new england patriots eighteen very are you very familiar with brian. Floors and brian floors is very very familiar with them then look towards the dallas cowboys then the los angeles chargers so that is a brutal four-game stretch for those you keeping track at home. One of the hardest four-game slates in the entire n._f._l. Imagined so to think here sit here in say why is ryan fitzpatrick the savvy veteran the guy that you know he has that fits magic mentality. There's a reason that he is still in an n._f._l. Rosser there's a the reason he was brought in this off season to compete with josh rosen to compete with whoever was brought in to beat the dolphins potential quarterback of the future what better guy learn and from then ryan fitzpatrick and i think that is josh rosen has alluded to all off season long the perfect mentor but if you're asking me why they are bringing in ryan fitzpatrick to start the seasons quite simple once you go josh rosen. You cannot turn back to to ryan fitzpatrick. There's absolutely no way that you can spin that mid season you no. You're not trying to win that bad and that's kinda clear by what stephen ross has said this offseason. That's kinda clear by the national pundits are saying the dolphins have a brutal team. I i know suspense not gonna sit here and admit that but to sit here and think that they're not gonna throw <hes> ryan fitzpatrick out there behind what appears to be one of the worst offensive lines lines in the n._f._l. Have him take those links. Have him get his butt handed to him early. On in the season and then transition flawlessly under the josh rosen era against against the washington redskins at home that will be week six after their week five by you think at twelve games to try to figure out what josh rosen is. I think what what you've seen all off season long as a guy that continues to get better and that is all you can ask for from a guy that you know six offense four seasons twenty two years old you know he didn't get get to the right chance there in arizona. You're starting to see with colin. Murray people are overreacting already about what carla marie is about his potential in that offense so i think a lot a lot of people just need to calm down and realize that this is what's better for a team that once you sit there and say that there's an open competition once you sit there and try to at least show the rest of those steph fifty-three mirage that you're trying to compete this year. It's hard to go. Josh rosen a guy who you hear about his body language here about leadership ability. Whatever may be i think a lot wow that stuff's overblown but to sit here and say that guy that has been roundly for seventeen years like ryan fitzpatrick is not too clear cut veteran is not clear cut leader that offense that is crazy to me. They paid hayden contract for reasons. <unk> gets kicked transition in the josh rosen <hes> but the biggest thing that urged me obviously was that it came out immediately after the tampa bay a game which josh rosen look pretty good all season long. He's looked to me to be the more promising quarterback but again. You're comparing thirty seven year old to a twenty two year old so that is apples to oranges as we will see how this plays out all we can do now is hope that josh rosen is the guy because if he is again you have that treasure trove of draft picks. You have all that money all that space next season into pretty much do as you wish to build around him. Debris held a successful team and that is what is in the miami dolphins best interest but enough about the quarterback position. We know that is the flashy topic. We know. That is what everyone likes to talk about. Let's look down this offensive line depth chart that is probably where a lot of the seasons riding you know whether that be the running game whether that be the past blocking whatever may be games are won and lost in the trenches and the miami dolphins on the offensive side particularly is pretty bad and you look at this step chart again heading into the dress rehearsal. You don't know how much stock you put into this but laremy tunsil will obviously be the starting left tackle behind him. A disaster got jerry jones smith who is third on the depth chart kind of an up and down performance over the last few weeks from jones smith. A guy that i do believe has potential the depth piece it may be you know in the future could be a starter in the league but as of now a guy that is perry down the depth chart again behind one of the best left tackle football <hes> laremy tunsil be the absolute starting left tackle come week one of the season against the baltimore ravens. You know unless injury for some reason we're to hamper that next to him. We got michael. We know the third round pick out of wisconsin. A big guy big bruiser graded a ninety one on pro football focus which is an absolute elite score. We we know <hes> preston williams a week prior ninety three so these young guys are ball and then i know it's preseason <unk> against inferior competition as they might face as the starter <hes> throughout the n._f._l. Season but michael looked like a monster especially according to pro football focus yes. He had plenty of words. Yes it was not a perfect game by any means as if you're on twitter you would see the different exchanges between everyone but what you get is is a guy that is young. He is a rookie the humming he he resembles a guard and that is something dolphins desperately desperately lacked for many years dating back to the tonys parana days so tip of the dolphins scouting department at least for now for funny guy michael the senator daniel kilgore s pretty much solidified their chris route will be the backup behind him so not too much not too much change on the left side when you go to the right side that's where the issues lye and shack who began reps as the right guard. I do believe once a season start. He could be that guy we know. Montero is the third on the depth chart. He is a guy that it great it up pretty well against the buccaneers so interesting to see how he continues to progress but right now. If you're asking me who will be the right guard i do believe it'll be shack how hoon even though the depth chart says jesse see davis net leaves jessie davis jordan mills to battle it out right tackle right now. Jordan mills is first on the depth chart at right tackle. I do not think that isn't the dolphins best pinterest again if they think jesse davis needs to be a right guard that could be why that is stated the way it is but at the end of the day i do not think jordan mills a starting right tackle in the n._f._l. Well i do understand. The dolphins brought him to do so to kind of take the place of john james when you look back heading now maybe that contract isn't so bad. I know he was just a you know a suitable right tackle but you're starting to see how hard it is to to find offensive line helping. You can't tell me that as a bookend for many years on the opposite side at tunnel you know then you won't have this issue so i do think the dolphins could be regretting that we'll hold his right behind. The dolphins picked him up from the cardinals. He is a guy that could also have potential down the right tackle tackle. Isaiah prince of rookie has ups and downs but i mean that is a guy who i think could be a suitable starter in the n._f._l. To be determined obviously tight imposition. Mike just sticky nickel leary in terms smyth. I think nickel leary looks like a better. All round tight end. Here cannot forget dwayne allen who has been <hes> smitten in by injured. I guess is the word probably not the word but he's been battling through injury all offseason long again a guy that is probably better suited as a blocking tight him but when you look at the depth after you got <unk> o'leary smile and then even clive walford clev- offers ahead of dwayne allen so i don't know that you know maybe dwayne allen despite being buddy buddy despite having a history with the coaching staff i mean maybe he has a chance of being cut based on the steps are based on what we have not seen throughout all of preseason <hes> from dwayne allen so that is something to keep an eye on running back physician kenyan drake or ceylan balaj. We no injuries have given way to both guys. I mean started out. Balaj was the world-beater he was kind of the guy that was number. One on that debt chart kenyan drake took over when balaj ones was out a few days looked as explosive as ever and now the kenyan drake a walking walk boot uncertain to start week one kaelin balaj the the hive is back. It's caitlyn balaj season. If you guys are going into your fantasy football drafts by all means look into kaelin balaj dude is going going to be an absolute stud. The value is insane. Identity draft with three dolphin fans including myself and somehow caleb lage was still available in the tenth or eleventh round for the starting running back by many <hes> by many s- prediction that is insane value behind him. Mark walton patrick layered miles gaskins. I think all three of those guys have a chance of making the roster. Mark won't be in the one ahead of those guys at patrick layer. No one can argue what he did. He has rexburg <unk> mold tomb. You know maybe that's just looking at the skin tone perhaps but what he doesn't the passing game where does is running back. I mean this guy is christian. Mccaffrey light and the dolphins often should be excited about what they had. There is at least from what you see him doing a second third and fourth stringers definitely potential there and again. We know how these new england coaching staff we know how they work in the different running backs day in and day out up there in new england so not be surprised the dolphins mix in patrick layer more won't emmaus gaskins concer- out the season. We then look a wide receivers and the two starters right now. I guess it'd be through got. Devante parker on the boundary got cheeky gingrass behind him preston winds behind him inside. He'd black null would be forced on the depth on the other side. Yeah kenny stills slot. Trent irwin looks like alan. Hearns is behind behind irwin again. I'm not sure what they're going to do without hearns or brice butler. There's lots of mouths to feed on that. The depth chart in it's gonna be very intriguing to see how the shapes up because i believe again. If dolphins wide receiver gets cut he will go to a team and he will start instantly albert wilson isaiah four bryce baller. I can't embrace bowler allan hearns. Those guys are on the bubble in those. That's that's a battle. You need to keep an eye on same a trainer. When i mean these are guys that it's hard to say how it's going to shape up you know everyone's getting limited snaps but our wilson should will be a lock in there once. He's healthy will be started. Kim grant will definitely get some reps. I williams i mean he was a world beater in the first week had some bad drops in week two <hes> yes. We know the rain had a lot to do with that but it sounds like this could be an ongoing going issue. We've heard reports. <hes> sutton did a podcast earlier in the week and you did hear the reports that you know it could be an issue moving forward so it'll be very interesting to see how how that plays out over the defensive side and charles harris is absolutely look like the complete opposite of what we saw in those first few years yes yes. He had some help from you. Know the big bodies inside we know devan godchild christian wilkins they are in there just being big body especially christian wilkins. I mean you seem occupy in two blocks locks on nearly every down opening things up for god shell beside vincent taylor when he's in the game but most importantly charles harris and tank cared and opposite of him. I mean the dolphins opens pass. Rush has been abysmal. It was an issue you heard the rumors about damian clowney so it was definitely something to team is hoping to maybe address this off season but you have to love what what you're seeing from. Charles harris is rising to the occasion. We for many months speculated that this defensive better suited for him that seems to be clear as day behind on him nate orchard <hes> andrea homes behind him so there's some there's some potential there but i think charles harrison nate orchard have solidified their spot on the fifty three officer charles harris should be the starting defensive end should be the the best pass rusher mean from what you see here. I mean you got him. You tank cared and charles hair should have three or four sacks he should he should honestly maybe double his career stats <hes> as far as quarterbacks that is something to keep an eye on but again. None of that can be possible. Christian wilkins ends up front without divine god vincent taylor joey embu. I mean you look at the depth. Here in the defensive line has to be one of the you know. There's there's a lot of uncertainty there but when you look at the way they play look these big meaty defensive lineman upfront. They have the ability to get to the quarterback. I mean you have to get excited. Ledbetter is pretty good twain hendrix. I mean a week. Go look like the best defensive end on the roster so there's definitely potential there. You definitely have to wonder how much which prime floors you know his background new england all those different players. He developed fifteen years. You have to wonder how much of that is showing up in this dolphins roster and a it speaks volumes especially when you look at the linebacker we know jerome baker all season long been praised. He's now wearing the green dot they're in. Miami probably their most explosive linebacker without l. Question requirement kiko alonzo both continuing to be hampered by injury. It is uncertain of when those two guys will come back but that's just opening things up for those guys behind behind him and right now a._b. Is behind your own baker. Quinton polling is also on their recall mcmillan. I mean him. He could be losing that. A starting spot and samajwadi is just absolutely bowling. He looked like the best player against tampa bay seven tackles getting ready to cut up shortly after this that that will post a twitter early morning while you're eating cheerios drinking your coffee but samajwadi and the c._f. L. stand out. I mean you you can't help but look sit adhere to watch him play and thank. You know what this has the potential to be very good. We know an interview came out miami. Dolphins dot com where it was basically brian floors saying just go out there. Don't over think in just do what you do you kind of saw that last game dude as a playmaker and i do think once mcmillan's back once <unk> i kinda think they're racing to get back from these injuries. Because whichever one gets gets back i could find themselves in the starting rotation and then san joaquin could take over the other one. He is currently listed behind kiko alonzo and that to me seems like the perfect transition issue. We know kiko alonzo is an absolute monster against a run. <hes> we know what he does each and every one hundred tackles he goes in there like a freak and missile but he has some bonehead plays and he is not very good in pass coverage sam guava the complete opposite so i think the future here at the linebacker position assuming <unk> going to get back to form. I mean we really have never i seen him. Get back to what we saw it ohio state but those last four games last year was was as good as any from a linebacker but i think the future here linebackers jerome baker recall mcmillan mcmillan sama guava yesterday watson it'd be it'd be wrong to not sit here and talk about him because he has been an absolute stud throughout preseason chase down remains on roster a special teams maven ba for unit that started to look like you know <hes> one of the worst on the roster slowly starting to become you know one of the strongest this unit so <hes> you gotta like seeing this defense the biggest question mark would be in the secondary saving howard is going to be the clear cut shutdown corner. He will follow the team's number one wide receiver through and through opposite him. Eric rowe seems to have the inside track of that starting position new cornell behind him. Jamal wiltz is behind exuding howard powered tori mctyre jalen. Davis sit here name off these guys all day long but the dolphins need help at cornerback that is that is apparent. I mean <hes> aside from airbrushing saving howard you know minka fitzpatrick's probably going to play the nickel spot. He's probably gonna move around in the secondary as he should but i mean aside from those three guys it is a very very thin position on this roster and free new england defensive loves to use those five <unk> those five defensive backs five six defensive backs other other gotta find someone and i do think when someone is cut they will probably look into that probably find a few players you know based off of these roster cuts that are impending side from. We've got the safety position. Reshad jones t mcdonnell both hampered by injury. That's gonna make fitzpatrick took on that role last <hes> i guess it would have been tampa bay game even even leading up to that and the joint practices we know mama mak- came out wasn't happy said he was playing out of position. I guess she wasn't happy with the criticism. From omar kelly the the unwarranted criticism for a guy that continues to be bounced around from one position to a next asked to do things that might not suit his game clearly strong safety is not that but wants russia jones's back once t._j. Mcdonald's back expecting minkah fitzpatrick to be used possibly on the boundary depending on how eric looks definitely in the nickel spot. That'll definitely help solidify notify those corners bobby mccain the free safety. I mean it looks like this transition to free safety was in his best interest already under contract so that is not an issue so i think when you're looking at the defense compared the offense i mean you have to feel a lot better about the defense especially when your head coach just sha tan los angeles rams in the super bowl yes we no bill belichick had something to do with that but you've gotta be excited about the future this defense lots of good pieces there same with the offense but just not as much receivers strong position. The offensive offensive line is a ever changing thing musical-chair. The offensive line is ever changing is a legit game of musical chairs. There's <hes> how it'll shape. Up is anyone's guess quarterback position. There's no doubt my my josh rosen will be in the starting rotation sooner than later. How soon is yet to be determined limit but overall not a lot of change throughout this first three weeks of preseason. It's gonna be interesting to see how it shapes up with the dress rehearsal jackson but not too much change not too much talk about it's gonna come down to the offensive line. Hopefully josh rosen continued to push that starting quarterback spot hopefully kenyan drake back sooner than later every kwan's back sooner than later kiko as well <hes> the safeties obviously the miami dolphins i mean when you're looking at this rosser lots of uncertainty but lots of potential to build but for the future and at the end of the day that has to have dolphin fans excited and thank you for listening to the august nineteenth edition of the finsider daily right here on the finsider cider. I'm josh outs and i will talk to you next time fit side radio part of the dot com and the s._p. Should any tall fake the ball from goal to goal like no one's ever seen in the on the ground. We're always in control old. Miami your i saw uh-huh any as the greatest fien and from all around the ground at when you're saying talk talk vianney remember by take off awesome just <music> hi amanda <unk> editor earned chief eater and i'm daniel janina producer here at eater and we are here to tell you about our brand new podcast digest every week on the show we dive into the weirdest funniest and most important stories in the world of food with the inside scoop from the biggest names in the industry and expert insights from the eater newsroom. It's really fun time so i would say subscribe to either suggests for free today on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast app.

dolphins josh rosen ryan fitzpatrick miami dolphins finsider twitter Miami jesse davis tampa bay buccaneers charles charles manson kiko alonzo jacksonville jaguars tampa bay charles harris football baltimore ravens sutton allan hearns
Rock's Urban Legends... Separating Fact from Fiction

The Loudini Rock and Roll Circus

59:20 min | 1 year ago

Rock's Urban Legends... Separating Fact from Fiction

"Today on the Lou Dini hard rock and metal circus. We are going to be separating fact from fiction when it comes to these rock and roll urban legends. You've heard about the mud shark things like that. That's what we're getting into today. Stick around. You're listening to the Lou Dini rock and roll circus changing rock history. One podcast at a time. All right. Everybody. Welcome back to the Lou Dini hard rock and metal circus. My name is Lou Lombardi, but you all can call me Lou Dini. I'm your host for this hour of madness. Podcasting madness, and as I said, I thought they were going to be discussing rock urban legends. They're not just urban legends but rock urban legends. And if you don't know what that is stick while we'll make it all clear all become clear to you in a second. Our website is Lou Dini, rock and roll circus dot gob. We are lie. We are live, but we are on rock ridge radio as well. You've got to rock ridge radio dot com and download the app as well as listen to us on classic ninety two point three. We are everywhere we are growing. We are really excited about it. So shoot us a message we are broadcasting live tonight. We do this show live every week from rock ridge radio live on Facebook, so that's rock. That's facebooKcom, backlash rock ridge radio, live and just follow that. Because and you wanna follow that, because if you are passionate about great guitar driven rock, like we are, then this is where everything's happening guitar driven rock. So you want to check it out. So mood, Dini, rock and roll circus dot com rock ridge radio. Thank you for hanging out and sitting next to me, are wonderful talented, lovely stunningly beautiful. Co host in the pink shirt are are rock. Goddess of all, things like rock history and rock, encyclopedia missed lily V6. was that enough of an interesting? Oh, hi. Get all the BS out of your mouth. So we can start to be S. My mouth full, you had logorrhoea there for a second, buddy. I have. Have diarrhea of the Mt. I'm doing well how's everyone? I don't know. Do we do? Would you did you tag are? I did use regular Shagged RPG. Yes. We wanna give shots to the head Chris thunder. We'll dots and Billy all all men. John FOX, Josh pod rat, Jason paint me build a dummy. Build on the on. Oh, is said he's recording his own show tonight, but he will check try to check him with us a little bit later on. So we do appreciate all that Barbara healer Jeff ski as well. Barbeque with barb. You were sick this week while we worried about you, you said that you had passed out a couple of times, and that scared poop out of me. So I wanna make sure that you were all right? I got a message from you said saying you were feeling better. But if you guys follow us on social media, these are high car regular. These are the guys are always interacting with. And the you can be part of that to the check us out. We do appreciate it. We do have a newbie listening tonight, Betty, Nateing. Welcome Betty, Betty, boop you're now betting. So anyway, so, yeah, we're this is a, a really cool family of people that are like growing in numbers and getting to know each other and having a lot of fun. And we have a like an exclusive thing for you. We'll talk about little bit later on. We are going to be, we're talking about rock urban legislate. And if you're new to the show before we get into the general topic we always like to play a band. We always play rock music, hard rock, rock, and roll metal that you don't hear usually aren't gonna hear any place else or not very many other places. So that's our claim to fame and keeping with that tradition. This is a band that we discovered a few weeks ago called bad marriage is a track called Diablo on the Lucchini hard rock. So. Bad. Bad marriage on the Ledeen hard rock and metal circus. We have been rocking out the bad marriage for few weeks. We're really glad that we discover those guys, I want to give you guys away to discover bad marriage. The dig a little deeper into the music to hear more stuff, and you can go to their website, which is. Bad marriage music. I just love that bad marriage music dot com. Check them all out. They are just great belief in the Boston area. Bad marriage music check about guys rock urban legends. What are some of your favorite ones, and we're gonna be talking about some of the famous ones that are out there. Legend surrounding songs legends surrounding artists bands, and things like that. So lily is our resident rocket story and lily, how are you today? Good, you good sweaty spatting, shredding. But at least it's on snow. Oh. You prefer sweat the smell sure, do not may prefer snows guy. I know. Well, there's only. There's only so many clothes, you can take off. You know, whereas when it's called you can always put another layer on the heat one cold cold. I can't get warm. Cool off easy. I see I don't cool off easy. Oh, guys are the same. Okay. So let's jump into this thing. Would you got on your list of rock urban legend? So I don't have on my list. I did not put the much one and I also did not put the roadster on because you mentioned them in the description, and I'm sure everybody knows about this. I do have some famous ones on their bar. That's totally fine. The one that I have that, maybe not too many people know about, as CV Knicks and the but cocaine, but cocaine Stephen now wait a minute. Okay. Now I just go ahead describe what is the urban lights Stevie nicks as everyone was singer Fleetwood, MAC, also does solo stuff Hershey? So she did so much cocaine that she damaged her nose. And then it was rumored that she hired somebody to administer the narcotic into her rectum, either by enema suppository, or blowing it through a straw now she didn't really did into her nose. There's truth to that. So by doing that she burned a hole in the septum from doing too much, cocaine, which is something you can do you could you could burn out the whole thing. It's about that. She said it's about the size of a dime. However, she said she has never taken it up the but as far as go king. Oh. I don't know about all that other stuff, probably, but cocaine was not in her butthole. So I don't know how you guys feel about that. If you're happy about it or not, if you're relieved that Stevie nicks is, but whole is virginal when it comes to Kane at least at least the very focused, I was worried about that's the kind of thing to keeps me up and I go, oh my God. You know, has Stevie nicks. No longer a but cocaine virgin. But now thank you so much. I feel so much. I feel so much better. I can go back to jerking off to her. Of course, it was a media fabrication as sometimes that happens. Yeah. You know that stuff. Telling media doesn't ever happen. Come on only Donald Trump says the media makes news. Okay. So what's next on your little least? Least least, so the next one I have is gene Simmons is Cal tongue. Oh, yeah. I was in elementary school. When I heard this rumor and we all believed it because he could take that tongue out. They could talk those. It's like. Like. Lucky Shannon tweed is and, and it looks unnatural it really does. I mean if you see it if you've ever seen even we're talking about all you gotta do. Do quick Google. Search gene Simmons tongue and you'll know Akwa talking about if you. If you're living under a rock, gene Simmons is the basis for cast. He weren't bassist very loose. He has stated that he has his own tug, surgically replaced with the tongue of a cow to make it as long as it is for when he does his little tongue tricks on stage or whatever else he doesn't done, but implanting an animal into human mouth that could be moved and mobilized and with normal precision is not taking not right? Physically possibly tongue. If he did that, that tell it always. Drooping out. One side he'd be drooling. It'd be like a bulldog. I would just not now. It's completely, you know, you believe it though when you're ten and and, you know, the guys score, like, hey did you hear about this guy in kiss yet is tongue replaced with house tongue? Oh my God. You're looking at the and they're all like everyone's like looking, and everybody. So, you know, you know, your kid home, my God. I also thought for many years, that catch up was actually turtle's blood, my cousin told me that it was like a couple years older than me. And then I found out later on it was child. And, you know, nothing. Maria. You're an asshole. She's like you're an idiot. Asshole than maybe it. So that's a podcast is better to be an asshole, or an idiot. So that's next week show. So. So when he got so I do have a, I didn't put them in any word, or this is just we're just having fun Jilin and relaxing. And having a few drinks hope you guys are enjoying yourselves then feel free to chime in with any comments. Or whatever the, you know, you wanna talk about something, there's a, an urban legend you like wanna talk about let us know will will bring it up with Google real quick revise guy girl. So the next one I have on here sergeant pepper in McCartney's death. I'm sure you know that were polled is dead. In nineteen sixty nine everybody was freaked out because they thought Paul McCartney actually died. When he stormed out of a recording session for sergeant pepper. An anger crashed his car and that he'd been quietly replaced a look alike. So the band could keep going without losing the diehard Paul fans and the Beatles didn't help with this because they made constant allusions to Paul's death in their albums. But it came not so subtly with sergeant pep rally him. There's a wreath on the album cover shaped like a base in honor of the bass player and apparently in strawberry fields forever drawn one and supposedly says, at the end, I buried Paul. Or is he saying grand berry sore, which is what he says he said? And then other people think you said, I'm very bored. Then there is the cover of Abbey Road where they're all dressed like different people from funeral. And Paul is the one dresses, the corporal, which is us. And then there's the VW bug this park that says twenty eight if he would have been twenty eight years old, if he had lived, right? And I that was another thing that I got all cut up in is a kid. The Beatles were all long over. But I think was a king biscuit flower hour are one of the Senate syndicated radio. Things we had done this like multi like all year long. Program called it was twenty years ago today where they did a giant radio retro those guys before they were podcast before those YouTube before there was before there was even cable TV before there was rock. You mentoring, like behind the music of king. Biscuit flower hour would do these audio radio shows, where they would give you like a radio documentary about bands. And they did this Lemoult. I part thing they played it over and over and over on the radio in the early eighties. Celebrating the twenty years of the Beatles, and that is how I got familiar with and me. And my friends we listened to we'd come to school on Monday. Listen, king biscuit, flower. Yeah. Here this, so we got all wrapped up in the Beatles things, and we'd love that at fast forward thirty years or so Netflix puts his documentary on you say, no. I haven't Nick Netflix documentary supposedly narrated by George Harrison, the actor who does George Harrison's voices dead spot on. Gotta watch tells his very favorite story of Paul's death and the replacement and it is a conspiracy theorists freaking wet dream. It is so good. And I, I wish I remember guys maybe we can look it up on the mall. I'll tell you guys about it. I'm sure it's on YouTube now but he covers every detail. And every question every like contradiction, you would try. There's an answer for it just like typical. It's like amaze. Yeah, it's insane. But if you say it's absolutely crazy, and they go into all the little details. It's a lot of fun. Paul is not did not. He's not dead. He's not dead. Isn't he Tori tarring you? Still, you know, God bless him and Ringo. I know. Right. I mean that's like. But anyway, so that was a and, and, and the beetle how brilliant they were they saw that. And they just they used it as a marketing thing, I think it was part of that. But I think it started out, just as fun. This is like, like, you know, noodling around anybody notice if we do this, and then when they started hearing rumors they thought ship, that's really relatives because this is awesome. So, you know is great musicians as they were songwriters. They had that thing going as well. So, okay. So what do you got? What else do you have on onto conspiracy? Real quick. I just want to relate that this is not music legends. His music urban legends. I do have people listing near legends and rock. That's very cool. And we talk about that on the future podcasts. But we're doing urban legends right now guys, not your favorite Rockstars urban legend, like stories of Iraq's rally, we need to educate you guys. Anyway, my next one is the song, heart shaped box being about Courtney Love's vaj now, basically. This rumor. Oh, I sounds like like that. Sounds like a Rick in like fourteen year old kids joke boys joke, does not done legit. But go ahead. Anyway, Courtney love heard this somewhere, and she rolled with, during an interview and said, yeah, of course, that's of course, that's about my Jonah. And she also claimed that she wrote the lyrics to it after her report, you know, husband is dead. She's telling people this, this was not about anything sexual song was actually about kids, with cancer so kids, cancer, turn John then maybe to rethink your life and Rhody. But according to obtain Cockbain was about the little kids with cancer, and it was the most saddest thing he could think of, and it has nothing to do with Courtney. We're gonna come right back. This is transcendence never back down the Lou Dini, hard, rock and metal circus. Tall. Back. The finest. Wedding. To win. That is. I will. AM. Transcendence from the transcendence from Pittsburgh. Let's be confused with other transcendent sees and transcend Ince's or transcendence. Transcend is there your, that's what I was looking for. You can go to transcendence for one two dot band camp dot com and get yourself in Pittsburgh. The Pittsburgh addition of transcendence right there, I think that band kicks breaking we're going to coming up next. We're gonna be I'm so excited. We're playing Royal. Honey span is so bad as another band from Pittsburgh. We don't we aren't a homegrown show, but we do end up playing stuff from around here because we're. Well, and, and the music around years, there's good, heavy rock and metal in this area, who to funk it. I remember like in the nineties when when I was playing in bands. Like I was always told that like the band's I was in the I have to have people, I wanna hear that noise, you know, it was all bands like the Clarks and Ike McCoy and brownie Mary in these more middle the road host grunge post grunge type bands. But it has more if we have a, we have a great scene year of heavy rock. So. Check it out. Take great bands, right here. Anyways, we're talking about the urban legends not the legends of rock. This isn't like a countdown of, like, you know, hen grits. The Beatles Led Zeppelin blacks. This is like Erbil these crazy stories that surround some of your favorite artists, and some of your favorite songs that some time end up being true. And I'm should the U goof-balls out there made up because you smoked 'cause you're bored. Yeah, smoke the bunch of weed. I think the songs about Courtney Love's the giant. She wishes. I'm gonna write a song called Courtney Love's vagina, Courtney Love's vagina. Thanks. I'll be here all week. I love it. He loves vagina. Oh, come on. Nobody listen to it. Are you kidding? They will love it. Nobody likes her. Why guys okay Courtney Love's vagina? That's all guys will take it. I saw this band, one time in the ninth the night bandwidth, and they were another kind of heavy rock band. It was being shunned so me my band. And the access y in this, a wish I could murder name all played, this show Sebastian Coe's Altoona, and this band, I do not remember, but they had this song, dedicated to Atlanta's more hated Atlanta's more set. And all I remember was the chorus was a Lantis Alana's won't chew go down on us. Lantis. I don't I wish I knew these guys were. But wherever you are, if you lifts listening, man, like me, and the other guys in advance the other opened guys at night. We just walked around for weeks and weeks. Atlanta's Alana's won't you go down on it was. Yeah. Anyway, so digress. Anyways, we're talking about rock urban legends. Woody got next little lily V6.. The Ohio players killed a woman. Yes, I heard about this, this, it's on the rollercoaster of love right? Yeah. Which is in the movie it is, actually I just listen to it on the way. Mark. Y'all know this song, I hope, well, the chili peppers did a yeah. They a cover big in the nineties. But apparently, you can hear a woman screaming just before the second verse in the song, people thought it was their cover model from their Honey album being stabbed to death being burned by heated, Honey. This is what people thought the screen was just supposed to be ineffectual recreate being on a rollercoaster, which makes a lot of sense to me. And you know what? I couldn't even hear the screaming I listened to earlier. But it's not a woman at all. It's keyboardist. Billy back the model Esther Corday is eleven well, actually, she's not dead wasn't savage. Wasn't burned silly people again? Have the thing about Maryland Manson rip. No. But you can bring up if you want, I don't have that on here, or the one of Marilyn Manson being the guy from the one years. I don't have that one on here. There's a there was this thing's going around that he was the guy on the wonder you and that kid looks like Marilyn Manson junior. He does he does. But it's, it's not it's so what do you got next my next? That are true. I mean, half truths I've yes, I have one, let's give true. Because there's some that are true actually, to give us a true. Okay. So one of my guns and roses and the drummer's lady. The drummers drummers woman, the drummer is a woman drummers female, not the Dermer is a female, you know what I mean? Rocklin anyway, while recording appetite for destruction guns and roses singer axl rose, brought Steven Adler is the drummer, then girlfriend Adriana Smith to the studio. The two engaged in some sexual playtime. And it was captured on the recording during the session for the track. Rocket queen. I'm sure you've all know the song talking about many people saw nobody involved with it ever did anything. But confirmed that had happened Adriana later came to regret that the regret the incident before coming to terms with her weird claim to fame. But yes, the orgasm happening on rocket Queen legit from even Adler girlfriend. Do you have doing guns? Do you have the story about love to love you, baby? No. What is that either? The. So the story goes that Donna summer saying, loved love you, baby and was literally having orgasms and it's like seven minutes of her having orgasms. That's weird. Now, I don't know that story. Do you have the in the air tonight or that he wants to tell that story that's a long one? But yes, this is actually one of the more well-known ones. So the song in the air tonight by Phil Collins was supposed to be, or what people thought wise, he witnessed a man drowning while another man stood on the beach watching him drown. The story goes further with Collins, premiering the song at a concert, having sent the man who watched the victim, drown tickets to the show. So he could they put a spot. They supposedly put a spotlight on him called him out. You know dedicating the song to him later. This man goes home and kills himself. Anyway, that never happened though, song is about that is, that's at face value name of that album. Yeah. Okay. And that entire album is about the break up of his marriage. And that song is about some stuff nasty have to went down between him and his now ex wife. Yeah. And how could it ever happened? Anyway. I mean, like how would even who this guy was without like saying why the fuck? Hi drowned instead of like, why vitamin show. I co please. Yeah. Got some version of nine one one in England. I'm sure they do well, a couple of different versions to like Phil was witnessing Rabe, or he tried to prevent the drowning or what have you. But none of that have have the thing about Keith Richards, snorting, his dad, but I know that one Keith Richards could pretty much do anything any kind of register that involves ingesting a foreign or listen object of some kind, and people would believe it. So Molly crew. I know those are the current Ozzy invented this. No. Oh. No, you silly, a little guy named Keith Richards, who's probably seven hundred years old now. But did it wanted this year kind of whacked out drug thing, perverted than you can think of Keith Richards? Eight years ago. So like nobody's going to catch up. But so in two thousand seven after Keith Richards, said that he snorted his father's ashes after he was cremated not long thereafter Richards denied it saying that it was merely joking. However, apparently, there was a little truth to the story. In two thousand ten richer stated in his autobiography life that he acted on impulse, and otherwise innocent situation involving the ashes the truth of the matter is that after having dads, ashes, Annie Blacklock sick years, because I really couldn't bring myself to scatter him to the to the winds. I finally planted a sturdy English oak to spread them around as it took the lid off the box. Find spray actually blew out on the table. I couldn't just brush off sway wife them say, white my finger over and snorts. So there is some truth. It's not like you pull. He was to align my dad. You know, you know, so that is something that's been around for a long time. And those of you that know and love Kif Kif as he's known. Absolutely hilarious story. What do you got there? So Debbie Harry, and Ted Bundy. Debbie Bundy and Terry Hill yet. According to Debbie, she was potential victim of serial killer Ted Bundy in New York City, he'd kidnapped her early in the seventies, and she was trying to hell a cab and was held hostage in his car narrowly escaping with her life in reality. She did actually get kidnapped and was held hostage for it, but they couldn't have been Ted because Ted was never in New York City during the time of his killing spree. So he could've killed her anyone or captured her anyone else in New York City at that time. That's an interesting story, I didn't know that one till I was reading some things today. Kind of a strange thing, you know, we were talking about this. We're gonna we're gonna go to another song. We were talking about this at rehearsal the other night, and rancor just with rancor. On me. But. Charles Charles Manson, Charlie Manson, this is my favorite one. Did you have if you wanna talk about it until you talking? And they were going to go. I didn't wanna step on Scott. No, no. You got so trials. Manson wrote a song for the twice. This one's actually true before he came a psycho killer that we know as we know it love this became a serial killer that we all know and love. He was just a struggle Tate. Good. Right. He was just struggling songwriter, like any other guy and nineteen sixty eight Dennis Wilson hit and him met actually Dennis Wilson met two women of the Manson, family picking picking them up while they were hitchhiking. That's he was able to meet Manson. They became friends and Manson wrote a song called cease to exist Wilson, really liked the song rewrote the lyrics, entitled, it never learn not to love. Of course. Manson was pissed off. I'd be mad. I don't know narrow there are several accounts of what happened when the Saco confronted Wilson. Eventually he was out of the beach boys life forever. He went onto bigger and better things as you know, being matters. Torius killers in history. I in documentaries, that I've read, and this is just a little sort of added note. Ryan Wilson lived in the house that Sharon Tate eventually moved into what was the intended target. Was I believe the publisher and he told them kill any kill everybody in the house, and they went there and in? Laurel. Canyon. Yes, there was up in laurel canyon. And that's where lot of musicians and producers people that lived, and they would rent each other's houses, and stuff like that. And it just happened. They weren't in that house Tate, and her people family were were there and while as they say. And boom, king of dynamite, going, boom. This is Royal Honey dirty romance on the Lou Dini hard rock and metal circus. Pittsburgh zone. Royal, honey? Dirty romance and want to get a little Royal Honey. For yourselves to you now. You can get a little Royal Honey at Facebook dot com slash Royal on the great band to love vicious, rock and roll in your face Allah, the faces you know that kind of like the faces meet the. The Ramones it's kind of edge to it. So we're gonna do some shout outs. We're some shoutouts that some of the folks did that are having real quick before we do that. We mentioned earlier in the show about this documentary supposedly narrated by George Harrison. It's called Paul McCartney really is dead. The last testament of George Harrison and just Google. You guys can find it. Was released in two thousand and ten it's about an hour and a half long. It's weird creepy Beatles, kind of fun to check it out. Okay. So so we got some fans chime in what we got. We have questioned what, what's what are they saying? They're all right. So our watchers are Charlie oil thunder will, of course, we have the newbie Betty watching as well. Marc silverstein. Atomic cowboy productions is watching you what's up. Trying to find somebody trying to talk about the actual topic. Amy Pittsburgh, Kelly, or Kelly levies, watching ceiling, Leonard Clayton Jerry Johnson. Tom Proctor like strawberries. I don't know why or what to do with anything strawberry. Snowed hims- Kirk watching not Heemskerk when the Tacoma van Snowden. And Gary Johnson said it sounds very much like New York dolls and aren't that's all we got. Thanks for everybody watching, there was a little confusion about what the topic was about, but we're not gonna read this comment. Yeah. And Jerry Johnson wants know when you're making your hard rock debut. Yeah. We're gonna play playing hard rock tonight, Jerry better together, so. Yeah rock rock urban legends. Not rock legends. We are. We're gonna we're just about done here. We're going to hop over and do our after party. And if you'd like to that's what the really who kids are. That's where all the cool kids are hanging out. So if you want some drunk sex, you wanna go to Lombardy rockstar com. Click the little link and request entry into the inner sanctum the inner circle. And so we're going to be hopping over there in the next fifteen minutes or so. So you can do that Lou Lombardi rockstar comp shot to rock rage radio for being an affiliate as well as classic ninety two point three guys rock. Thank you so much. Okay. Low, we gotta we want you wanna throw a few more at us, more parting shots, if you will. I got a couple shore. So heiresses premonition of death. What's that about? I read about it, but I, I read like the discussion. So there've been various stories about Aerosmith almost buying the plane that later crashed near nearly killed everyone in skittered, the, the actual stories, less interesting. But it was based on good human resources. Right before the infamous crash. Aerosmith assistant chief of flight operations checked out the very plain deemed it unworthy for of the boys from Boston. So he actually either saw the crew drinking, and he didn't like it, or he actually saw the end in Kutch fired story changes, depending on talking, but Skinner did not have the same lock and spent years without loss. But notes to ban get a chief of flight operations officer, maybe you won't die in a plane crash later on. Urban legend around the skittered crash. Have you guys heard about the Betamax guillotine supposedly? Ronnie, vans? Aunt was found to capitol. And there was a Betamax machine on a shelf and they think that during the impact the Betamax machine caught him and just head off. And so the so the band the drive by truckers did a concept that Iraq did a concept about Leonard Skinner has called the southern rock opera, and they actually have called Betamax guillotine. I mean that's legit, though, that sounds like a great song title. The same good neighbor Bantu. It's a little wordy for band, but. Yeah, huge drive by truckers, and and get a chance. Listen to southern rock opera. It's doubled this thing it's all. And if you're if you love scanner these guys are like, like southern punk rockers, who loved Skinner d-, which is that's cool that whole kind of, like, you know all country but they love skin. Heard three lead guitars like they. They're, they're very oh. And Lewis kinda band. But still have that sort of punk cut attitude. But anyway, so that, yeah, so that's, that's an urban legend. I don't know if it's really drew, but on the on the liner notes the album. They relate the story that there's this urban legend about the Betamax guillotine. So here you go. So what else you got? I also have mama Cass. Choked on a ham sandwich. No one's getting facts at mama Cass. So what's up? Anyway. Happy and ham sandwich was found quite him before you do. A lot of people are young and do not know the cast is so explain to the, the young pop is, do we know who that is all the leaves are very old Brown, old band? Very trippy kind of music, great dream in their big. That's a great song anyway. She was very large woman, and the one guy in a band had sex with his daughters guide here we go. Anyway, a half eaten hymns and holders found by the body of her in a London flat, leading to the media. Of course, declared the horrible rumor there was never any truth to it. Her death was from heart failure due to the stress. She put under south due to extreme fasting while trying to lose weight quickly lake. Most rumors him sandwich. Became accepted, as fact. I've heard Michelle Phillips talk about this not about this particular thing, but I'm not mama Cass saying that she never had any problem getting boyfriends. She got lady, she got laid as much as anybody else in that banded. So that goes to show that, like people want to get with famous people. It doesn't matter. Good looking not. Good looking big little short. Whatever you are, if you got a little cachet going on like that, man, people want people. They want peace at. So that doesn't matter. There's, there's somebody for everybody. Of course. I mean like Oprah gets boyfriends, surprisingly. But go ahead. So what else you got? We're to. Let's do you got? Let's do the time. Let's do two more. I can do to so you did talk about Keith Richards a little bit. I got another one here on on my list. Keith Richards gets his blood changed. So it's a very popular rumor that the guitar does this to change. He does he changes out his blood dude, all the drinking and partying that he dies what this is a matter. Of course you know, once a year goes. Refreshed. And this is why he's lived so long, but he never actually had his entire blood supply swapped out. He did have a procedure to clean toxins out of his blood in an effort to kick heroin, the blood replacement story, it was a joke, he told because he got sick of talking about his attempts to clean up. So and also, there's no actual way, you can change all of your blood supply. Yeah, there's no way always gonna. Well, yeah, you can't sit there with old blood like clean all veins on wa- scrub it out with Clorox or something. And put new blood, you would be dead by. Here's a couple ROY orbison guys was lined. I like that one, I I get what he never was seen without sunglasses. Let rumor that he's never mind. This is interesting. We were going to we were going to do that one, and I left it alone. Seven club is not actually thing rocks exclusive club isn't on the sunset. Strip has made a musician side of the seven foremost. Jim Morrison Janice Joplin Jimi Hendrix, all who succumb to drugs and alcohol around the same time. Same age this Quincy slit, the media dreaming up, mythical twenty seven club where rock shards of the age of that age go when their time is up later. Kirk obain will take his own life at the same age combined with the mother's grief joining stupid club provide the mythos twenty seven while trimbe rock legends Clooney. Bandage Jim Morrison James Jesse 'plain the sounds like an EMMY wine, the members it's sounds like thing you only named like truth. Seven of the biggest rock's all time these rockers didn't die because they were twenty seven die because of drugs and alcohol now it's still could be thing. They still could be thing. We don't know. That's that's when you can't technically answer. I don't think Jerry Johnson. Did Elvis die on the toilet? Yes. He was trying to pass the biggest. Double bean burrito in the history of double bean. Burritos? And I mean, I don't know about you, I don't think I could pass that to saying it was he was trying to pass a monster. You know, Mudd pocket. And. And he was dropping the Cosby kids off at the pool. He was taking around to the Super Bowl bomb in Tokyo. Wow. You happy. Oh, yeah. Guys hear about this. I we're talking again we're talking about. That the song taking care of business like trying to figure out what to do, and the pizza guy came in and said, you need piano. You know, so I you know. The band's there where they work on the songs psalms missing. This is taking care of business by Bachmann turnover. I'm getting ahead of myself, so we're gonna song. The kept felt something missing something missing pan apart. Some versions have the pizza guy actually playing the iconic barrel. House, piano, part on song, having just catching the chords on a pizza box or some of play then he vanished leaving the band to find him. And give him a check neither versions true, though, both our spouse by various members of the ban in reality. The piano player on the song was professional musician, who was in the same studios, BTO recording commercial jingles the band's engineer as to play, piano, the song, and the musician, Norman Durkee did. So banging out one, take of boogie Woogie that became the best part of the song Durkee claims pizza had nothing to do with it Durkee who died twenty four claimed he was paid ninety dollars. And the rest as they say. Is history and raised did not tell anybody else. And the Beatles did not get high with Queen Elizabeth. They just smoked cigarettes and back before they matter, it's right just saying, but they might have gotten high quickly, I think she'll get down evening. So. Yeah. I do. And no. He wouldn't have passed a peanut butter sandwich. It's going to stick the whole way down. Sorry. That's probably what it was all peanut, but damn peanut butter clam, fried, fried. Although that does sound kind of good. I don't. You can just a fried if you would you know how they deep fry everything now. Delicious Freia peanut butter jellies fry butter. Did you know that grows? I am so down that I like fried Oreos. But those are like. I could kill me over. I can't wait to Keith coming. Anyway, can't wait kennywood chm. Anyway. I can't ride and thing. 'cause I'm too tall. Tall enough. Tall at stuff. Make just turns my stomach. I throw up on those things I can't. I'm not. I can't wait to read still curtain. I'm not an amusement park. Still Curtis Curtis Steeler. It's a it's a group of them. But that's the new roller coaster anyway. I just thought that might be not to ride all the Steelers. Okay. On that happy, that you've been listening, Dini hard rock and metal circus, or websites Lucchini, rock and roll circus dot com. Check us out and rock ridge radio. Monday nights check us out on classic ninety two point three as well. If you would like to continue to hang you want the party to keep on going jump over to Lombardy rockstar com. We're gonna go into party in our private backstage pass area, the green room, if you will, they'll all kind of shit is going to happen, if you don't go gone up. He many times. That, that show gets, like even more it's out of control. More people like crazier than what goes on here. So you definitely want to check that out aluminum body rocks dot com. We're going to get out of here gonna win. Thank the bands. We had tonight. We just played Royal Honey facebooKcom slash Royal. Honey? We had transcendence the Pittsburgh transcend. It's extra incentives for one, two dot band camp dot com. We opened the show with bad marriage a bad marriage music dot com, and we're gonna get get out of here tonight with a track off of my. Well, it's just my latest single, it's called where have all the acid queens gone. Speaking of twenty seven club. Lilly, any parting thoughts before we get out of here? Tonight. Sure, check out my show Thursday nights, hotlinks, fluid six on rock Radio Free app, or just go to the website rock radio dot com all business cards. So if I see you guys get off me. Instead of saying, eight nine euro business there bears all the business. She's all up in your business guys, whereby the ASA queens gonna catch, you guys on the next loot, any hard rock and metal circus. Stupi. Fame.

Lou Dini Keith Richards Paul McCartney Pittsburgh Charles Charles Manson Courtney Love Beatles gene Simmons Betty George Harrison cocaine Google Facebook New York City Lou Lombardi Jerry Johnson Stevie nicks Billy Iraq
EP59 Serial Killers

Weird Wacky Wonderful Stories Podcast

45:52 min | 11 months ago

EP59 Serial Killers

"Hi guys nick tyler the author of haunted yorkshire the books available numbers in on inaugural bookshops android today's episode of wind wacky wonderful and don't forget subscribe see you soon everybody in welcome to episode fifty nine of the weird wacky. I'm wonderful stories podcast. Hello everybody hi this three of us today a little bit more doesn't there's three of us today. There's four reverse okay canton dog again lily speak there. That's her hi. Everybody okay so thank you to nick tyler. I four intro. If you want to win the copy of the signed autographed book that he's given us especially for you guys. All you have to do is listen till the end of this show and find out what very easy little task. You have to perform no you. You've already got signed copy. Although you have to do all of the washing-up today i did all the washing-up yesterday and she did all the cooking so no. This is unfair because it's the only time ever the you've done the cooking and the washing up makes me look bad only time ever that makes you look even worse through this the cooking from canana the fact that you think you've got through ten years of knowing me doing all the cooking and all the washing-up. I think that's just you know okay okay. It doesn't matter if we share 'cause yesterday. I did it all okay. You did yesterday. Thank you don't usually usually roy okay so moving on today what we're gonna do as well while i'm going to do is sit back and relax because bala uh-huh bronx it gonna take the reins on this one because i know nothing about our chosen subject today. So we are the weird wacky wonderful stories podcast as you. I know which means that we can deal with anything this weird and anything that's eight louis and anything that is arab or subnormal or paranormal so that's why you're you're on this show anyway so moving on what we're gonna do is. We're going to do the show today on well. I'll let you tell them price. You tell them today. We're doing a show on serial killers which is a bit less wonderful than normal but hey whatever but definitely we did. We don't have to really get into any like super descriptive. 's but it's just odd things. This is something that you guys actually really enjoy. Don't don't you enjoy probably the wrong word but but you to listen and read stuff on serial killers and especially the kachin ac- regulars and how they detected tips and how they foiled and eventually brought to justice or whatever i like how they get caught. That's what i like bronxville about you. I don't like what they do. I just think they're interesting. You look at it from a whole psychological point of view. The new looks at it more from a forensic point of view and i look at it like god. This is going to be an argument tonight. Just talk about something canals please while i'm interested in what makes them tick but i'm more interested in how they get called more interested in how they get caught whereas you like the fact of trying to figure out what makes tick don't you yes yeah well. I'm from the states and i lived briefly in massachusetts and my stepfather's family was for massachusetts. Let's and so. I heard enough la about lizzie borden when i was younger so you know how they do. Skipping rope songs things kids leg waltzing one. I don't know any off top of my head. I wasn't ever good at jump roping because i was always fallen. Jump rope in a whole german rope. Whatever he's doing are about the clap some when you would do. I'm talking about no. No you underminded anyway because you're a boy anyway. Games joking on you build up and reflex couldn cooking amounts of let better yeah yeah well anyway so there is a jumping rope thing in it went. Lizzie bordon took an ax. She gave her mother forty whacks when she saw what she had done. She gave her father father forty one so the story of lizzie borden is true. There really was a woman nameless burden but she didn't kill them with the axe. She code him with a hatchet shit that matters so much. I'm just saying and actually it's just a smaller acts no because if it was a hatchet i mean if the hatchet was an axe they would go. It was an act but it wasn't it was a hatchet. She doesn't run with anything it would have been for the song yeah well whatever anyway hatchet killed her mom and it didn't patch it does not funny no no okay dot and then she walked him. Oh my god let me finish. She was actually acquitted so she didn't maybe do anything allegedly she actually or somebody actually gave the mother eighteen or nineteen and the father i think nineteen so it was over exaggerated anyway. So what was the scenario then. I mean what what was supposedly happened. Does she come in from a night out or did you have a big argument story. This is the thing right so we're dad was actually very well off. Breath estimate today probably around eight or nine million dollars okay but they didn't live in the affluent part of town they live just outside of that and he was actually a well-known man with intel obviously to because he was in the banking he made caskets did all sorts of inconvenient. I know loads of property lows houses anyway. Lizzie borden's mom died aid and he got remarried to somebody named abby and they say that when her dad's started to actually spend money on his new wife's family like selling my house for a dollar not sort of stuff this made lizzie and her sister get kinda. Yeah jealous ellis pissed off about it but it all starts before that actually because although they had a pretty big house and they had a servant woman they didn't have plumbing you know so he had a lot of money but he didn't like to spend any was quite frugal which is terrible because any dies and i ended up getting it anyway. I'm going to boston is stop employment frugal istat dirty yeah no. It's was an eighteen something or other if other places had bathrooms plumbing he's doing eight million dollars. No see the very affluent houses had plumbing in the affluent. Did you have to be. He chose not to do it because he didn't. I want to spend his money right. So can we move on now. He's thirty ebola now. He's not dead man man but anyway the thing about about the murder was that it happened in the middle of the day. People are kind of about on the street. Nobody saw anything. Nobody heard anything but supposedly smelt something. They said it could have been the plumbing but supposedly this servant. I can't remember what her name well. She was upstairs on the third floor taking a nap lizzy yells from. I think the second florence has you know oh my gosh. You need to come down here also anyway. There's the father he's chopped up as as he's lying on a couch right stepmother is in one of the other bedrooms and she died as well like you would if you got hit in the hatchet but anyway when the police came they started to ask questions and she quickly became suspect number one yes suspect number one and and in her defence the her doctor said that he had given her morphine to keep her calm so she said one thing that she wasn't the house she was coming in from outside and then another time. She said she somewhere else in the house now the time somewhere else in the house anyway the society any at the time just couldn't believe that she would you know this little privilege rich kid that that does very well well dressed and supposedly nice lady could do that so shit front yard but she when she that's it's rude when she is questioned and everything they think okay well you know. We don't have a suspect better than this. However once it went to trial because her lawyer said make sure you dress really feminine wear black because you're in mourning so she wouldn't to court and she would have rose or not roses especially flowers abo- calf flowers and her nice long flowing gowns and all this sort of stuff and so oh she was actually acquitted in the end and then a little bit later a warrant was put out for her because she got caught shoplifting but that was that was further down the line but the house now is a bed and breakfast and you <hes> and you can go their plumbing night. I would think so although in there so i can't say but the house number was changed as well that's neither here nor there really but they changed changed it amityville as well one of those houses that were famous haunted house. They changed the was. It was the amityville horror house. She's deadly. Was this on the market not that long ago for like a million dollars more than that. I heard on a show. I listened to over those days. It was between six and eight million again well. I don't know maybe maybe that was exaggerated couldn't pay me that much to sleep in the house but they put pictures on the internet of it and everything you know the house and it looked amazing but anyway she's not small houses it no yeah but considering what happened in it. I think the size is neither here nor there plumbing fair point fair point. Does it have electricity probably if it doesn't have wifi. I'm not interested well. We live in a teensy little housewife fine. We are all scrunched into braces little teeny teeny bedroom because our studio is under construction. ESA work-in-progress getting there isn't it it is it won't be the next recording the one after that that will be in her new digs. Let's put some pictures up on the internet owner website professional anyway lizzie borden's house. You can go there. Now is a bed and breakfast and it's really kinda creepy because they've kept everything in that victorian period so the furniture's like the they've got a couch. That's similar to the one that our father was killed on in the same exact spot and they actually is a big thing to lay on the couch and take pictures. Oh lovely but you can stay in the runes is supposedly because her dad was such a frugal man. If you're scared and if you leave money your coins out he won't come and haunt you. Although i don't know why you would wanna stay there unless you actually wanted to be spire chunks of the people who own a bed and breakfast touchy feely really money. I won't porn you. That's a really good a really good sorta market employees. Did you take it now. Oh must've been him must know. NC funny thing is a lot of the bedrooms are supposed to be connected with you. You know bhai doors so they actually could tip toe in in the middle of the night and i mean the thing is when you think about it a lot. These people go into these places to do. You hold it investigations. They say that if you're going to go to somewhere go to somewhere that's had some kind of violent crime or something of that code because if the theories that ghost exist because they may be shocked of their body in a certain way you know killed quickly all in taken before their concept have to mall etc etc then more likely to be arraigned because of unfinished business you know residual energy being left because of such a horrific situation etcetera etcetera a you imprinted on the environment all that sort of stuff so i can see the people who own the bed and breakfast if that's the case. Martin is probably a pretty good idea because all these ghost hunters going to want to go there yeah well anyway. What ends up happening is she gets acquitted. Her and her sister sell that house and what do they do. Yeah they moved due to the nice neighborhood with plumbing and toilets and that and then they live out their days sorta like that but eventually the two sisters had a fallen out. We don't know why what it was over but the one sister went and actually moved into a nursing home because she wasn't well lizzy live barsov in the end. She died aide of pneumonia and nine days later her sister died and now they are both buried next to their father. What did assisted over in the muslim she it wasn't really one of the main characters so can't remember main anything to do with it but there's been learns of movies in an plays and books and all this sort of stuff written depicting this whole thing but one of the movies that was made star stored. I think it's elizabeth montgomery so this movie that i'm talking about. Elizabeth montgomery plays lizzie and after the movies all made aide <unk> bumping along in that it comes to light that she elizabeth montgomery's actually her lizzie bordon ordonez six cousin removed. Was she aware of that. She did it now. Why now so it's pretty weird. Isn't it yeah exactly so that was pretty interesting this anyways. That's my first contribution very interesting. Thank you very much so what you got bryce. How do you feel about soap and cookies. I like soap makes me smell good and i love cookies. Don't you the cookies. Don't wake you smell good though i don't think you'd like like this woman's soap or cookies because leonardo chin-shui born eighteen ninety four in italy is known as the soap maker of correggio because she she killed three women and made them into soap and cookies. Oh my goodness who used to soap and cookies her end the people's he gave it to <hes> so hold on a minute you make in soap because soaps made a fatso right yeah but who eats meat cookies. I don't know how she made cookies. I didn't look into it that much. I don't wanna know but in reality there's more than just that to the story and there's actually some other sort of weird elements. It's to it so she was born. In as i said eighteen ninety four in italy and in one thousand nine hundred seventeen she married a man who her parents didn't approve of and she claimed that on this occasion her mother had actually cursed them in their marriage in nineteen twenty one they moved to the men's native town in italy where she was actually imprisoned for fraud. I don't know the nature of the fraud. I just know that she was when she was released. From prison. They moved to less adonia in avellino avellino and then in nineteen thirty. They're home was destroyed an earthquake and then they finally moved to correggio which is where her sort of moniker comes from and she actually opened a small shop with quite respected now in their marriage she actually was quite tragically tragically unable to have children in some circumstances and some of the children have died quite young but they eventually managed to you have four children who stayed alive past childhood and it turns out that actually she was quite wary of having kids kids in the first place because she was told by a fortune teller that she would marry and have children but most of them or all of them would actually die young and then later on she apparently also visited under a palm reader who told her that in her right hand she saw prison and in her left a criminal asylum now in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine jumping forward ford bit she learned that as a result of italy preparing to enter world war two in a few years obviously her favorite child and her oldest would actually actually have to join the army and she quite loudly came to the conclusion that his safety required human sacrifices which ended up being her three victims uh-huh yeah because that's what i would do. If you had to go to war i'd be like oh. I'll just use some human sacrifices and normal. Everything will be alright wasn't it to do with black magic jake. She felt that that would appease the entities that were disallow in her to have a happy life for their kids was not what it was all about. I don't know sets like weird. Tit for tat hat thank so the first of her victims was named faustina. Setti who is a spinster and chin truly actually told her because the woman had come to her seeking a romantic partner advice finding one she told her that there was a suitable man in a place called pola but <hes> she also asks the woman not to tell anyone else this news and then she persuaded her to write letters and postcards to relatives so that when she reached reached polar she could send them to her family and tell them that she was fine. Now you might be seeing here the kind of problem with that and that's if can truly gets a hold of these these postcards she can send them herself right and that's exactly what she did after said he came to visit her the last time upon which time she offered her drugged wine and killed her with an axe not a hatchet. Oh we've got a parallel and in essence what she did was then she cut her into pieces added several ingredients and then boiled stirred the mixture until it became soap and then blood that they had left in a basin from it. She mixed with a bunch of other ingredients to make cookies or cakes as so yeah well she did. She got the coagulated blood as you said she droid it in the oven she grind it and mixed it with flour sugar chocolate milk and eggs as well. There's a little bit martyring so they go not gonna find in many cookbooks these days for thus the cookbook for making crunchy cakes. She called them serve to the ladies who came to visit. Is it not to be confused with red velvet cake exactly yes. Her second victim was killed in a similar way in fact almost exactly the same way except francesca so avi was told that she had a job waiting for her at a school for girls in piacenza. I'm not sure if i'm pronouncing that correctly and the same thing happened to her when she came to visit chin-shui before she left and the third victim whose name was virginia casio and she was a singer and chin-shui claimed that she found worked for her as a secretary for a impresario are you a person who organizes and finances concerts or plays things like that and as chin-shui said she ended up in the paul like the other two i gave gave birth to neighbors and acquaintances the cakes too were better. That woman was really sweet. Why brings a new meaning of a few friends around for tea. Yeah you gotta go wash your hands for you. Eat with the soap and then you can come in have some d.c. Yes not nice. I mean we're making kinda trying to light about some of this but you know these people's family leisure liza horrific ways to meet your demise and then the lack of respect shown to you when someone comes in and uses you to clean themselves not making fun of it really because i actually know to people people who have had family members murdered and i don't think that is funny. It's just it's pretty weird. You know the ways that people think of to get rid of the body or to try to get away with it or whatever is just really weird as you said the victims were obviously part of people's families police in that ties in actually to how the woman was caught the sister-in-law of the third victim grew suspicious of her sudden disappearance and last saw her entering hiring chinchillas house so this was reported to the superintendent of police who opened an investigation and arrested chin-shui after some time and in fact she she didn't actually confessed to the murders until the police believed that her son might have been in on showing in trying to protect her son she kind of admitted today in the end yup in the end she was found guilty of her crimes and sentenced to thirty years in prison and three years in a criminal asylum and if you remember the prophecy chrissy that she got it again that's exactly what happened prison in one hand and mental asylum and the other now to me that seems a bit like probably embellished over time mm-hmm but it makes for unfortunately everything has happened of course but it makes a bit of a better story really doesn't it yeah it does so i wrote a book one time about about a guy who put an ad on internet looking for someone swear to god to eat remember you heard what about this and he actually got somebody who was willing to be able to do that and and so you know a couple of fingers and then but the guy was alive like let him have pieces of into cooking eight. I didn't hear it was fingers. Well that too do yeah. I mean you know aside of the fact that you can go on internet and people get tricked all time right an and he's innocent people and you hear all sorts these horror stories about lake scammed people out of money and you know all that kinda the stuff and somewhere in the world. These two freaks find each other. Just i mean what can you do right. I mean no crime has been committed it. Please please come over. No no no. I said he could eat my fingers for dessert fine. I don't mind unquote fingers. Yes gives a whole new you mean in them cadbury fingers don't it scares me about that. One is just the guy wanted to be eaten you you were completely willing and he gave this man consent to cut him up and eat him normal. I know like i mean what was he getting out of it gratification we bought something on the TV. Didn't we get in the sexual stuff right way by these guys were going to this dominatrix woman and they were letting her kick them in the nuts. I should watch this bull seattle high heels then congealing. She was stamping on them and they they're like lebanon stoke. Yeah i remember seeing that. I just i have no words. This is the time we should mention that. This podcast probably should have an h. One definitely so what about that show you know this doesn't have anything to do with zero killers or criminals or whatever but what about the show here naked attraction that that's not anyone hurting anyone. I'm just sayin to sexual dominates okay so for those people in other the parts of the world then we've got the show vehicle naked attraction. You could probably find on youtube if you looked it up something basically the idea of it is is that you we'll judge a person on their body not their personality. They don't say anything they just show you parts of the body from the feet up till until eventually the last thing that they achy reveal is the person's face so it's quite interesting. I quite like watching it personally because it's amazing how you can look at people and you go. Why are they got fantastic body. Oh my goodness that's amazing excellent you know and then you get to the face need go now. I wouldn't so it's interesting that you've seen people walking down the street and you can look at them and go now wouldn't let that but actually they got a phenomenal body yeah yeah and the thing is when when the person actually picks the one that they want to be wait then they have to undress and the net so they're both naked when they meet meet each other i mean buck naked on the show isn't like naked and afraid where they the bits and pieces. You see everything yeah so right about them. Bacterial noses you realize we're putting this podcast on the internet and you've just asked your son about bacterial vaginal commercials opus hocus girlfriend doesn't listen to me too so every time the kenniston commercials come on TV. We will call brace. You'll be upstairs playing a game. In the middle of the game we go price stays communist pulls it and then the minute you will the line we just as they say in bacterial veggie noses mine again and then goes back up the stairs to fleas game the only reason i thought the bacterial veggie nurses though was because we we were doing that to them with they get attraction. Show you not normal normal right this weird. I'm sorry but if the people that listen to our podcast even think were normal than they. You must be new listeners. Listen awhile. I'm just making sure we don't promote normal. It's just not the way we do do things so was hannibal a real serial killer hannibal no he was based on serial real killers but i don't believe there's any specific one that did anything. I think it's probably just a combination of a lot of different ones. Okay so written by someone unnamed. Tom harris think that ring any bells not a claim to know so many people need to become a victim of your pursuits shoots for you to be labeled zero killer three. Is it three. I'm more see upper limit because you wouldn't call hitler serial killer. Would you know but he didn't one. This is probably about point to make but he didn't kill anyone directly so i don't know if that would count to begin with neither did charles charles manson but he's still died in prison but was he a serial killer. Were the people he made kill other people serial killers was he a serial killer by proxy see but proxy shoes you know if you create a bomb okay and you put the bomb in the middle of a team sent somewhere and kill a lot of people smarter okay but what i'm saying. Is you kill a lot of people. Are you the murderer because the bomb did so what's the difference between someone making a bomb and killing people or someone making people kill other people. It doesn't matter they're still both go to prison but my point is is that you just said you know. Charles manson wasn't serious. I don't know if he wasn't he wasn't a serial killer. He didn't actually kill them so he wasn't convicted of of the same sorts of things the ones that did it weren't even the same like couple of them. Were at both places but not all of them were so what about bonnie and clyde dan. Would they be considered serial killers. I don't believe they would they were bank robbers but didn't they but the people that they see in order to be a serial killer there has to be doesn't there have to be a sexual component. I wanna know if i remember correctly. It has to be that you kill a certain number of people in a not necessarily in the same way. I don't think it has to be because if you kill somebody with a gun than someone with a knife and then someone else with a gun. You're still a serial killer but are you if i remember correctly bundy did ted bundy co people in several ways and serial killer. I thought that there had to be a sexual component of have some okay. According to the oxford english dictionary a serial killer is a person who commits a series of murders often with no apparent motive and typically following a characteristic terrific predictable behavior pattern but doesn't always have to be the same well they have an MO of some sort don't they they they they may kill differently but go go after the per- a person that looks the same as okay here we go here we go psychology today says what defines a serial killer according to the FBI a serial killer is someone who commits at least three murders over more than a month's with an emotional cooling off period in between the definition however is problematic for a variety variety of reasons one being that it doesn't fit in the common understanding of the term supposed- gang member ends up shooting three people in street fights with members of other gangs over a ten-year period david with plenty of cooling dime period strictly speaking this gang members zero killer by the above definition but would not fit the common conception of what's your killer is. I'm not gonna read the rest of that. If you guys want to go to it you can go to psychology today and look up what to find a serial killer and you'll be able to read the whole article so that would suggest that there's a gray area. We're isn't i've just been looking and the difference in terms of spree killers and mass murdering compared to serial killers is that mass murderers are usually usually committed over a very short period of time and in close proximity to each other so usually that's not on specific people are targeting specific perfect people either and then a spree killer is someone who kills two or more victims in a short time in multiple locations so serial killer is similar method <hes> gap in time between the killings and what was the other part of psychological gratification right whereas spree killing is over multiple multiple locations in a very short period of time and mass murders occur in a very concentrated sort of airy earn one location across short period your time. I thought that serial killer that there would be some sort of a sexual component more doesn't have to be for all of them doesn't not every single cigarettes. <hes> there was nothing sexual in that for sister was cool but yeah that's what i love about that. Show decks does because initially when we started watching it the first two episodes three episodes four episodes however long it took. We will like oh my god. I can't believe we watching this is gross. This is morbid right. This is far beyond anything that are utah. I would find interesting and then come the second third season you in for the guy i mean. What does that say asinine society whereby i don't wanna go down the whole thing that TV makes people kill people because there's a big debate on that but i did become desensitized to the fact that i was rooting for this. Go in the end. I understood why he was doing the things you did. I kind of wanted him to kill these people when he was finding these people done bad things and then he was you know that's because he was killing bad people. Yeah i know but it's still not right is it. I don't know i mean don't get me wrong. If someone unhurt someone i left and of course that would be my reaction. I would want to hurt them as bad if not worse however i'd have to stand in front of a judge an answer for my actions and i would still be in the wrong but the thing is are you more rooting for him because of what he's doing or you rooting for him because it's part of a show when you're entertained well exact thing as an amazing actors in there was a whole back story in a whole you know other things going on in the background where you didn't want him to got find. I am good work. Release shit with other people ryan to move. You didn't want to be disappointed by his actions somebody to go out and start. People people kill him. I mean it was a good show but not socially acceptable. Behavior definitely not socially acceptable. Okay bella tell me of all of the interesting question things that you have read on this kind of thing and serial killers in the way that coal what is the most common way that these circulars and people who do that kind of thing call. They usually get cut because it do something stupid. You know ted bundy. He parked somewhere and got a parking ticket yeah yeah that's how he got caught. I mean if i was going to go out and kill people. I would drive the most nondescript car. It would be imperfect. Took running condition. I would park in a place that i knew was perfectly legal to park there. I mean you might want to be sure. This is an admissible in court before you say anything no. I'm just saying like if you're gonna go through. I mean obviously the planet they pick the person will the problem through. They always planet well. No okay maybe not hundred percent but one point is people will get a kill kit. You know they'll have their knife or the rope and their gloves trash bags. They'll have all all the stuff they need to make sure that when they go to do it the very organized all there's some of them aren't organized but whatever but you know and then they go and park their car in place. It shouldn't be or you go. Tell your friend that's another one of people get caught a lot of times not just like murder but loads of crimes burglaries anything. They get caught because i gotta tell their friend or their cellmate. Who will then the deal. You have to wear stupid on your forehead. If you tell somebody who's in prison with you because they're gonna italian you the first chance they get come. Just say an make a point. We do get people listening from a prison because it shows up when i was starts so just be careful say in a by people in prison right. We're going to get like loads emails now and everything else from ooh. I wanna be your pen pal. Oh yeah that's another thing about these women and i say women because mostly is women who right to new murderers in prison and then they get married to them and they go oh. He's so innocent. What's all about. I mean in your day. You're you were probably a bad guy hotheaded or whatever who me yeah okay. I'm not saying you kill anybody. We hope not okay okay. You will probably much more volatile in your younger days. Thank you for bringing that up on the podcasts. Although i'm kind of dispute in my own point because a lot of girls and teenagers and young people they liked that kind of thing see news said one of the first photos you you said to me look like a thug. It was in black and white. My head is all over. The place had a cigarette in my mouth. I mean bad look on my face and you said ooh. You like uh embrace. I don't need to know about your christophe. Leah to feel you is basically the sexual attraction to criminals. She knows then then tonight. I couldn't even say happiest defeat christophe leah. I can't even figure out a way to call you. Bryce wikipedia bracelet media he your wicked wikipedia would appear to be that's my boy. I looked up for the purposes of kind of cutting apart this conversation and forgetting about it felt you pull that straight ahead right. Why would i know that because you know what just happened. You just impressed thousands of people in the world and then he went yeah. I'm always cut it. I'm also everyone was thinking these two so childish childish and then you came out and became something my god. The dog is laying there looking at us like what are you doing luen. She's looking at us like. Why do they have to own me. She's going to be afraid to go sleep. I don't think she's afraid to go to sleep. I think she's going to be afraid to wake up again and deal with it again. Actually you know what also i find very interesting is how people get convicted of crime and and they got to go to prison and they're in there for ages ages and then it comes out that they didn't do it because of new forensic evidence that kind of thing yeah yeah. Wasn't there one who was found guilty of like a murderer. I don't even know if it was as extremism murder but he was in prison for twenty or thirty years and then he was found innocent and it was all because the person who testified against him was racially profiling. Yeah i can't remember but year year father knows a man named cart bloods worth i think he's he's mentioned that name to me quite a few times and he was one of i think the first i people to get his conviction overturned yet because of the advances in in sort of DNA and stuff and also the making a murderer guy he ended up getting his conviction overturned disney because DNA evidence against and then he got out and then went and did something else oh right yeah after the first crime he was convicted of his conviction was overturned because of DNA evidence uh-huh and then he got out and he was pushed to get all this money and then there was something else to happen and and he was convicted of the killing of another person which is currently gently being disputed again for the third time. Let's talk about john wayne. Casey now necessarily want to get into all the details about the people that he killed killed and and how we killed him and all that sort of stuff but what i find so weird is that after he was put in prison in convicted all that he started to paint and people were paying money good money for these flipping paintings didn't he paint clowns yes and that it was based on his clown persona pogo. I think his name was because he used to just up as a clown for kids parties in things yet and some the paintings which included pictures of him essentially as pogo sold for prices between two hundred dollars and twenty thousand dollars at various auctions actions permitted to earn money from them until nineteen eighty five although he did claim that his work was meant to quote unquote bring bring joy into people's lives yeah whatever i could have totally seen him paint in these pictures right and selling them and then all the money that he would be getting from these the pictures go into charity or the family of the people that he killed or whatever the only so. Would you accept that i wouldn't accept money of you some. I'm well no but my family you know but he dentist throat. You can make an anonymous donation or the state could have given it to them instead instead of with us. That's about right here if the state would have actually taken his in this country on the way they do in america in this country the proceeds from crime act which means means that they have the right to take anything of you. They believe that you obtain licitly. Well not necessarily obtained illicitly. Let's say for instance that you are a drug dealer. I knew a making the money and i have that money. You know you bought this new car. You lived in a nice house. You had nice clothes. You know your wife idol jimmy choo shoes and all the rest of it they can look at that as proceeds of crime and take all of that and sell it at auction and the money from that i believe goes to charitable causes and whatever you so. That's the kind interesting to do in this country. Do they not do that. I think i could be totally wrong about this but i think it was john wayne gay see they came up with the law like that you you as a person convicted of crime. You can't write a book and get any proceeds from it. I think it was to do with him but i could be wrong but you're not supposed to should be able to make money off of your crimes. Was i said until nineteen eighty-five. He couldn't after that point he wasn't allowed to anymore. He wasn't allowed to have the money from it at least so i don't know what what they did with that money afterwards or if he was still permitted to sell them at all and then there was jeffrey dahmer who got his just desserts no pun intended when he got murdered in prison that that was wonderful. It was really funny because i remember when that whole trial was on news and everything they were talking about him and stuff. I remember saying they're gonna kill him in person and they did and i was like yes casey was attacked in prison as well. I don't know if he was killed but i know he was stabbed now. He wasn't killed because they actually actually put him to death. I think they might have just saying he was attacked like stabbed at least twice as richard. Ramirez executed was his son sam one night stalker walker nights. I can't remember so onto this book which is haunted yorkshire by nick tyler. If you want to get your hands on the copy of the autograph autograph book that he is supplied us. This is what you need to do. We currently have a presence on facebook. We have a facebook page. If you have a facebook account then what we would like you to do is go to our page like our page. Follow our page then. If you already like and follow our page then just send us a message on any messages that we receive from now on until the next episode we will locked down your name etc and then we will do a draw on the next episode and tell you who's one if you don't have our facebook account because i know that we didn't have a facebook account really until we started this. We we weren't using meal so if you don't have a facebook account then just leave us a review somewhere nice reviews somewhere and then send us a copy of that review to mail at waikiki wonderful dakota UK. I'm we will include you in it as well. This whole exercise for for us is just about trying to grow audience even more and trying to push that would to people that we are here ready. Wait into entertain you. Thank thank you very much for listening guys. This is a little different episode than the norm. Hope you enjoyed it lasts. No your feedback if you don't want us to do anything they saw staff or interview people by this snow and we'll stick to what we do if you are interested in going down other avenues than less no absolutely great and in fact if you've got any ideas of anything else that you want us to do then you can on as well the facebook pages. We wonderful stories podcast. I believe something like that. If you google it you'll find us anyway guys. Do please make sure that you stay wacky <music> <music> the.

murder lizzie borden facebook italy nick tyler charles charles manson john wayne yorkshire ted bundy massachusetts Lizzie bordon Casey lizzie elizabeth montgomery roy louis intel boston
Psychotically Eclectic Author Brad Schreiber

Unstructured Interviews

1:03:18 hr | 6 months ago

Psychotically Eclectic Author Brad Schreiber

"Hey before we get started want to let you know that. The show is both on instagram. And under UNSTRUCTURED P. Please come by check. Check it out if you like to show say hello and tell me what you think. Thanks my name is Eric and this is unstructured. Or we have dynamic anemic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today we are joined by the author. Brad Schreiber who was self self described as psychotically ECLECTIC. He has written multiple books including revolutions end. Most recently music is power power. He also wrote death in paradise which I think was turned into a TV series. Is that correct. That's right. It was called North Mission road. Look at some the case is in the history of the La coroner fantastic them. It's great to have you on rabbi the way I am not at all insulted by being called psychotically collected because Britain role media and I'm an instructor on the literary consultant and Working in all different media is fascinating to me. Each one has its special challenges and its rewards you Acetate Institute Tourists Reminder Sand with some fun warm people like The Manson family. And I don't tour with the man in the family that I probably wouldn't like the tour that I conduct Eric I work with a company called Esoteric. That is the architecture architectural in La History Tour Company and Richard. Shaving Kim Cooper are amazing. People they're preservationists as well as knowing an incredible amount so I have a tour called Manson land that I've been doing with their company for about four years. And because it's so high high profile you know dealing with the Manson murders and has new information. That's never been published. It's sold out for four years The other tour I do do for them is related to revolutions end That's subtitle by the way on. That book is the Patty Hearst Kidnapping mind control. Aw and the secret. History of Donald to freeze and the S. L. A.. SLA being Symbionese Liberation Army which kidnapped Patty in a nineteen. Seventy FOUR TURNS OUT LONG STORY SHORT DONALD TO FREEZE The black prisoner who became the head had the SLA had drugs used on him at the California medical facility at Vacaville and then a CIA officer her in conjunction with Bill Prison decide to break him out and run him as a double agent. Now you I got confused on. Who is now? I know Coltman Westbrook is kind of figure had versus wholesale. Westbrook was the black. CIA officer who who who led Donald to freeze to believe that he was just going to be a double agent in the bay area. which was the center in seventies of far left activism activism and Ronald Reagan wanted to get the Black Panthers and the antiwar `terrorist locked up You know they considered considered the black panthers the greatest threat in the United States. And of course they were founded in Oakland. So I've done to our radio shows on this if in my responsibility to make coherent in in about thirty more seconds. No Way I'm going to do that is tell you that revolutions revolutions in is about a black man in donald the freeze who never had a chance became a double agent and sadly was wiped out along with five other white followers in one thousand. Nine hundred seventy four in Los Angeles in the largest shootout in. US history three and the white followers never knew was that lurch double agent. I'm sorry something about Waco was yeah. Was that larger than Waco. There were five there were five hundred. LAPD California Highway Patrol and FBI people firing being into a small stucco house in south central Los Angeles on May Seventeen of nineteen seventy four. They fired ten thousand rounds. Owns Eric into that house. And they received fire about one hundred bullets and finally and and this is the one thing that wasn't research search of other people I found out from an La Times report that what the Times reported as tear gas being shot into that. The House on East Fifty Fourth Street really was incendiary devices. Were called myrow technic grenades. There were meant only for outdoor riot-control like flash grenade. Thanks yes and they knew that if they fired in the house it would set it on fire but you had a primarily white police force in a totally black neighborhood on national. TV by the way forgot to mention that on all three networks showing five hundred officers firing into this House House to take out a double agent who they didn't want to live because he would have testified against the FBI the LAPD and so forth and so on a weird thing to hear because that means you're saying all the cops themselves were knowledgeable or Sir no not at all. They're only small group down to freeze had worked for something in the LAPD called criminal conspiracy. Section is a snitch. He it was a snitch. And again referring back to Governor Ronald Reagan and Ever younger was his attorney. German very militant their their attitude was anything we do to undermine the black panthers whether it's extra legal or not is justified because they're a threat so you know local law enforcement well the LAPD was like no other agency in the United States at that time Eric because they had FBI and CIA officers. Here's who would come to Parker Center and liaise with the LAPD about the criminal conspiracy section. And what they were doing because Oakland was what's the center of the Black Panthers and California had more militancy than anywhere else in the US. So it's this wild story. That is very very complex and I knew about it as a young man growing up in the bay area and finally I stumbled onto story by Dick Russell in Argosy argosy published in one thousand. Nine hundred seventy six that put together the final pieces and I went to him and I said why. Haven't you written a book and You said no major publisher's going to touch this Brad. I have all the documents but you know you're not gonNA get a major book deal in New York. I said well I'm obsessed with it so I'll buy your research off you. And he gave me it and you know it was the Rosetta Stone of research about the creation of the SLA was Dick Russell the Pi Dick Russell was and still is a wonderful political writer researcher. Now Roy on environmental mental issues Yeah Yeah but there. It's mind boggling and highly dense But really fascinating and Jeffrey Toobin Book came out the same day as mine. Of course yeah. Of course he didn't follow this because again No major publisher in New York. No matter how much research you have is going to publish a book that criticizes Ronald Reagan The CIA The FBI the LAPD in my defense. I also criticized the far left. And how naive they were But there's a great great book about the C. I. A. M. K. Ultra drug experiments which are part of revolutions in it's called poisoner and chief inspire inspire terrific writer named Stephen Kinzer about Sidney Gottlieb who ran m. k.. Ultra for the CIA for twenty years and a very peculiar accuser guy. So that's kind of fun book and that just came out yeah. I'm starting to get a vibe on some of that. I know you've looked into my back catalogue in. I have some people on who deal with mind. Control and things like that Chase US and I have a book that was written by somebody at China. I think it might have been Cambridge. I can't remember the school why he was very deep into that really early days of Of the mind. Control Back Taylor. I knew about it as I say when I was going to San Francisco State I had the grades and got accepted to Stanford and and UC Berkeley. But I didn't have the money so. SF state was my only choice. But I did a lot of political research while I was in a comedy group. The Bay area called the burlingame Philharmonic Orchestra and It was just something that fascinated me basically started. I did when I was at state and I saw a presentation about the JFK assassination by and. This is kind of weird. An organization based in Cambridge Bridge Mass Moldy Assassination Information Bureau and they laid out a lot of the basic ideas than the forensics that were were proof that it was impossible for one person to kill. JFK So then all the alternative newspapers and KPFA and KPFK the PACIFICA PACIFICA radio stations in California. We're talking about the fact that this donald the freeze character was working for the criminal conspiracy section Shen and what about the drugs that were used on him as a prisoner and I had a big slice of the picture but again until I got Dick Russell's research I didn't realize the full story and you were doing parodies of the phone calls the recordings. SLA in your head or group correct. Yeah the Comedy Theater Group Burlingame Philharmonic Orchestra and we were at KPFA in Berkeley. And we we did. We did a bid called Patty hearst for crafts Philadelphia cream cheese and It it's it's it sounds like patty is on a tape much like the tapes that were being plated. KPFA that communiques from the SLA. And I think the end of the a bit was somebody else off Mike the pigs cheese it with crammed so I figured that the you know ultra hip people in Berkeley quickly would would kinda smile morbidly and say Oh. That's darkly amusing. We actually got calls from people going. Is this another. SLA Communique Nick is the ethylene making fun of Craft Philadelphia cream cheese. What's going on here? Well in fairness you have to admit this. Some of their messaging was kind of confusing using. Oh well you know one of the things I obviously. I'm politically rather far left. So far left and I'm ready to fall off the edge but in revolutions end I say you know you WanNa create an organization that is going to change America in a very militant era. You don't take on military names you also don't Rob Banks You don't kill the I black superintendent of schools in Oakland which which as people were reading revolutions and Difference was ordered to do may thickly. You know how it it is with a snitch. When you're on the outside your controller so you do as I say and if you don't we'll just leap at your snitch and someone will take you out on the outside aside? The freeze basically made a Faustian bargain. That no other black prisoner at Vacaville prison would sign onto because they knew it was a Faustian bargain and that they'd be as good as dead. The only reason that the freeze was the one who agreed is because he was targeted because he'd already been a snitch for the LAPD and they figured this guy's perfect for us and it was the only one to to agree to it. Even though other black prisoners were asked to run the SLA four him. I told you if an insane story and we could spend the whole interview interview talking about it but I'm glad that I wrote it because it stay with me for decades and then finally I figured if I don't write this nobody else else is going to and Dick Russell said you have my blessing and you have my research. Let's it's kind of a dark book you don't walk away feeling good. Yeah it's true. I mean I wrote a humor writing book. So what are you laughing at and You know that's that's my more up a book in the Niners ten that I've written but There's humor believe it or not in revolutions in one thing that I thought was kind of amusing or fascinating living with the attempted rape of Nancy Ling Perry. Well that's Kinda Dr to. Yeah where she. We're some kid. Try didn't know that she was a member of the SLA Rang the doorbell letter safe house. And she basically kicked his ass knocked out of his hand and and scare them away. But Yeah Yeah you. You rang rang the doorbell of the wrong house. Buddy but also the freeze will how can we put this tasteful. He was under under educated. Let us say and he was on drugs. He was a drug dealer while he was in Vacaville. They're giving him women to sleep with and they were given I. Yes yes this is definitely so this is from Dick Russell's research Anyway so quirky story. He is that he would go to other black prisoners. He trusted vox bill and he wouldn't tell them I'm a double agent. And they're breaking the out. He'd say I'm going waiting to break out of here and for my own Revolutionary Group. And then I'm going to have you come with me. Oh really what's it called. And he forgot the name that he was given by Colston Westbrook. So he said called the the the Lebane- Lebanese army got the name wrong. That's right I remember that. Yeah he I guess. He came across sympathetic in some ways. But I I don't know I don't have that much much sympathy for the group personally. Of course not because they were they were violent but it wasn't entrapment and basically freeze the day that he signed onto being LAPD double agent. Basically that was that was the end of his freedoms now back to the altar and all that I did find a book called spiritualism or SPIRITISM BY G H S. Two books are you follow. ESTA Brooks Yeah I'm sorry to tell you that. ESTA Brooks in. My research is one of those guys even middle of mind control. He's like Sidney gottlieb kind of character. He's like the Louis Jolyon west of UCLA who did Mind Control Control Experiments. You know the CIA gave huge amounts of money. The Not only to you know what you would think be. You know typical prisons prisons but also to universities you know to journalists William F. Buckley was on the CIA payroll Eric. So you get a sense of how insidious their influence was back. Then the unabomber. If I recall was part of the experiments show me say. I've heard that as well home so so I guess you get A sense of Reagan and of course Nixon being president and their sense of militarism and paranoia toward what was considered to be a possible revolution. And I don't think we'll ever see it's like again in. US history for literally. Yeah yeah literally I was just GonNa say Eric People like Reagan and younger and Richard. Nixon believed there was going to be a military attempt at overthrowing the US government which I think is absurd. Well they were being. There was a a lot of people who are feeding that stuff too. It's like I couldn't help but think of parallels with Colin Westbrook and how he was sort of running you know donald freeze but then. There's some speculation about Krishna. VENTA being influence on Charles Manson and all of these guys had this running theme of well. Okay I'm it's hard to get my thoughts together but I found it very interesting that you were talking about the worries of I guess you say Black Revolution and they were emulating the situation with the SLA. But Charles Manson was emulating that situation or his family's emulating that situation as well in the opposite one of the things I talk about on the Etro tour a bus tour of Manson land God bless Richard and Kim because they have introduced me to people in the La Sheriff's department and the it once again it's the Black Panthers it turns out that there's an angle by which Manson's since followers especially the quote unquote girls were trading dynamite found in abandoned gold mines in California uh with Black Panthers And in exchange the girls brought back to Manson's group guns and one day the Black Panthers there's greeted Manson's girls with the dynamite and said thank you. Now get the hell Outta here or before we kill you. And that was the end the relationship so the L. L. A. P. D. and the La Sheriff's both could have arrested while they did arrest Charles Manson and his followers initially and then let them out and then the infamous murders happen they could have kept them in jail and basically my research reveals through. You know Richard in Kim helping me that the LAPD and and the sheriff's Department thought that there was going to be an a violent engagement between Charles Manson's followers and the Black Panthers and they left them out. They're hoping for that engagement. So that they could sweep up and arrest any black panthers so so there's a similarity in terms of the theme of we'll do anything to break up the Black Panthers enters Between revolutions and and of course the Manson murders and would it be fair speculation. I've always kind of felt that Charles Manson himself was nowhere near as dynamic or fantastic as as billing. Well if you're talking about as music music Eric I would tend to agree with you. I think it's pretty bland Charles Manson again. I like because I've I started writing in writing feeder when I write a non fiction book I want the protagonist no matter how negative to be three dimensional. Sure and and without apologizing Charles Manson. You've got to remember that. His mother was a prostitute never knew his father he was raped in jail and within the reformatories and he was not a normal guy before he got out of his teams. I agree so one thing he learned was how to manipulate violate young women to to tell them they were beautiful. He learned from Dale Carnegie. He actually worked for a while for scientology. What was wild he were you got cut off? Yeah he was he was a guy who worked for scientology in Hollywood. And we're and we're trying to recruit people and that didn't work out so well my good friend Paul Krassner who we lost. Not Too long ago had done a lot of really great articles about the SLA in about Manson found out that Manson was let go by scientologist because he was a a little creepy but he wanted the reason he studied. Eric is he wanted to learn how to manipulate the the women that would basically become his family and again without going. Too far down the rabbit hole. The Manson land tour talks about the fact that he watching completely in control of the family. Exactly why Tex Watson and Linda Kosabe Ian were running drug deals without his is knowing it Tex Watson introduced Charles Manson to Sharon Tate. We wasn't a random murder so if you take week if you take Quentin Tarantino's amusing movie and you take Tom O'Neill's chaos book which is twenty years of here. All all the people I met and I still don't know what happened. And you set all that aside and say this guy was a lunatic who manipulated people. And he was burning people on drug deals and the people in his family got out of control and and killed people without his authorization nation. You have a better understanding of what Manson was about. And if you look into then Bouli. OC who wrote helter skelter which sold a couple million copies sir. You understand that. He was accused of prosecutorial misconduct. Because he he was trying to use Susan Atkins as a star witness. And the man tonight said you testify against Charleen. You're in big trouble. So all of a sudden she was unreliable liable and Buluwayo say was stuck with Linda Ca Sabin and he said you know. Put your hair up in pigtails and look innocent. Well forget the fact that you were one of the biggest LSD dealers in Boston will forget the fact that you and Tex Watson were burning people in drug deals in Los Angeles Angeles and you will testify that Charles Manson ordered the murders. And if you do that we will give you immunity. And if you don't do that you you will never see the light of day again. This pretty common honestly it's unique to The Manson family. I mean they're always trying to flip somebody sure but in essence they're flipping. Linda Kosabe Ian to lie so so actually Bouli. OC is also Guilty of of Leaking stuff to the press which could have created a mistrial and Charles Manson could've walked and and part of all of this. I guess the best way to wrap this part up part of all this is that they had a legitimate fear the LA DA's office and that fear was if Charles Manson was ripping off people with drugs and Tex Watson and Bobby Beausoleil went crazy in drug burns and killed somebody in a panic. Charles Charles Manson is an accessory and in one thousand nine hundred seventy and accessory to murder could get eighteen months. Can you imagine what the world interest in the Manson murders. What would have happened if the La da even if they got convictions actions against the others? If Charles Manson only got eighteen months they had to lie and say that he ordered the murders nothing. He's a good guy and then it should have walked free but there was no way in hell and again it's ever younger. Are Powell who worked with Ronald Reagan and the SLA Soleil was ever younger. Who basically went to Buoy Osi? Who was two years in the? DA's office went around the DA. who was in charge? WHO said? Hey it's just a bunch of drug burns and and younger realized that Bouli Osi was saying not only. Could it turn our reputation if Manson gets accessory but it will make our reputation in our careers if we say. He's the Spin Golly who hypnotize people to murder rap thing. They're just a bunch of burnout to screwed up in drug burns. And that my friend is the inside nine-story of the Manson murders. Since truthfully nobody would really care if it wasn't for Sharon tate same way nobody really care about the SLA without Patty. Hearst this is this is very true which is a kind of a sad comment because when you when you think about you know what the LAPD in the CIA a were doing. It's terrible it. It's a horrible history and people should know more about this stuff but again people perceive it as radical politics and it doesn't sell and so forth and so on ask you about that a little bit because you you know admittedly elise year I guess Somewhere to the left of Bernie Sanders. We're looking at practical guy. I know that when Elizabeth Warren says I I want Medicare for all that she's making a huge tactical error the politician because to not recognize. That's how powerful the health industry and big Pharma is in. This country is to just be naive. Like they're the things that you and I want in World Eric and then there are things that are possible given the system. You can't boil the ocean now. That's not where I was going where I was going to sit. I I look at you know a lot of stuff. There happened there in. It's obviously from the laugh. Door would be perceived as left. But they're also have been some Bruce Miss Justices or you know real questions about things going to the right and you know a lot of people say that Waco way out of hand and there are there. Instances like that because Waco kind of generated forget the other one ruby rich sorry Ruby Ridge route in college by most as terror waivers and they were hard core right winging borderline Nazis. I I know of that but I'm kind end of wondering if this is not a government. That's anti laughed. Maybe it's just it's a government that's anti anti-government does that make sense it. It's kind of. I'm curious because I've been on Shows we're the host is far right but what they appreciate about. My research is that I'm saying look at what these agencies have done in the name of justice and the law so you it's kind of you all of a sudden there's a middle middle ground shirt now of course if I talked about you know forgiving college debt. They go get off my show. But you know there's this interesting middle ground on of of people who do not trust the government and of course you know if Congress is at sixteen percent and you know. Donald Trump's impeached reached obviously. There's a huge movement in this country. Rejecting trust in government. The question is how do you change the system to make it better. there's so many things that prevent that lobbying You know campaign finance reform. you know citizens united there. There are so many things that enabled this system that a lot of people say. Hey lobbying thing is a form of graft it's a it's a an industry paying someone in order to look at the bills that they wants. Shouldn't it on the floor of Congress. Well that doesn't sound very very democratic to me. But that's the way our country operates so wild well DI radical but then you say okay. How do you change the system? And frankly my opinion is you're not going to get rid of K street in Washington D. C.. Where the lobbyists are what you have to do if you don't like what's going on is to create a huge financial? PAC you see a pack a Political Action Committee for whatever it is that you wanna change because the only way in the system that is controlled by money. He's to have more money money and more influence. And that's the way. I think we change things if you WANNA get automatic weapons off the street or you know change healthcare healthcare whatever. You're not going eliminate the system that we have. It's a system based on money and influence and favors. So how do you convince. It's the senators and representatives to vote for you you go. We're going to give you more money than they give you. It sounds completely insane incorrupt. Uh but it's actually a practical approach to where we are with democracy in two thousand nineteen right and one thing I've noticed is there's only one city in this country that no matter. What during a recession or during the good times said always grows? DC It's booming. They're always growing they're building. There's always something going up there and it's kind of funny because that's one area that produces almost no tangible tangible goods. It's lawyer Heaven there. They they give birth to more lawyers probably than anywhere else on lawyers. There's lobbyists account. It's yeah exactly so moving forward. I think that some would also argue that you can. Dan Influence politics via culture. And that's kind of. The premise of music has power correct. Yes yes the subtitle on that being Popular Songs Social Justice in the wheel to change. I don't know why I came up with the phrase will to change range but it it just resonated because people have such a negative attitude toward and there is a movement of authoritarianism going on in the world. We know that there's a mass migration of peoples based on not only climate change but authoritarian authoritarian and anti immigration policies. And it's not just obviously about the wall in the United States it's everywhere it's A. It's a really he tragic movement and so the will to change means. What are you willing to do to try? And be part of a movement and people. People are so disgusted with politics. That I started thinking people are really moved by music so I decided to do a book that covers covers in the last hundred years every genre of music that's ever had popular quote unquote protest songs. I prefer to call them. Socially socially conscious songs protest song sounds like the whole books about the sixties in. It's not starts with you know Woody Guthrie Joe Hill and Pete Seeger and then into the folk revival Bob Dylan and by says but we've got everything we've got Tom Lehrer and smothers brothers and comedy. We've got hip hop music take with NWEA and grandmaster flash and there's even country music in this book so you know Jeannie. C Riley's Harper Valley. PTA was probably the first socially conscious country song to talk about small-mindedness in in small towns that kind of revere country music and feel that You know they're the salt of the earth and it was a a woman who who had never had a hit Harper Valley. PDA is basically a song about a woman who is being condemned for wearing short skirts. And she goes up in front of the PTA and says oh well how come so and so had to leave town so quickly with with her boss not explaining it. And how come you're always you know nipping gin. How come you walk around naked? And you leave your blinds up so It sold two million copies because the only hit for Jeanie Riley in her career but even in country music mayor's been socially conscious music. Why would actually argue that? Like the Dixie. Chicks are braver than many the artists. You put up because she went against the grain or I'm sorry she. They went against the grain completely the country music air. All right though. You're right though it's Natalie maynes you're talking about. WHO said you know in London? This is ten days before the invasion of Iraq. Air She. She's In Shepherd's Bush in London. She says we want you all know that. We're a shame that the president of the United added states is from Texas. Where the Dixie chicks are from well the country music establishment radio stations the fans? They all turned on them. And in Barbara Coppell's documentary. Shut up and sing. You see when they get a death threat when they're in Dallas. Alice and that's why. I'm saying that they were braver. I mean there's a lot of people who quote protests out. Look Rolling Stone is is not going to trash you for protesting government in any way not like the country music industry if you're going to go against against of traditional style president so that I think there's different levels of bravery and they just wanted to point out that I do think that was actually brave. Yeah and they're actually one of the last two acts that I talk about in music is power or the Dixie chicks and Green Day and Green Day's American. An eighty eight is a really interesting example to come after the Dixie chicks because even though the Dixie chicks were attacked their following album. I'm not ready to make Nice. Actually won a bunch of Grammy's and by the time. Green days touring American idiot and then eventually gonNA musical on Broadway in which some of the characters are decimated by American society including one of them being soldier coming back wounded from Iraq. They benefitted by the passage of time in Iraq so that the lack of weapons of mass destruction. And You Know Oh Colin Powell you know not telling us the truth in front of the UN and you know. Bush saying that the nine eleven attackers connected to Saddam when they're actually from Saudi Arabia which is a client state of the United States. The Green Day by the time they tour for a lot of people who were super critical of Natalie. Maynes just saying you know George W Bush is an idiot All of a sudden they were. You're welcome not only in Europe but in the United States now admittedly. They're kind of hard rock with punk punk. Rock and country intriguing. Music is more traditionally patriotic people. Exactly they tend to be right exactly. And that's why I was saying you know it's like you're you're not going to find many people in the pucker world getting upset if you trash Bush or trump. Or anybody like that. No changing. You know it's fascinating. I mean. Look this is my attitude Eric. When half the people in America don't vote? Anything is possible in terms of political change. If you find a way to motivate the people who have given up on the system apathy is one of the biggest problems uh-huh we have. Yeah but something about apathy but You know what's the point ain't exactly well I look locally. That's part of things funny. Yeah well one of the people. I work with who was very politically active and gets his own chapter and music powers Frank Zappa. He was trying to create a late night. Like show Called night school and I was going to be as head writer. He was fascinating he he grew up. You know the chapter on him. I talk about how he grew up on the grounds of the edgewood Arsenal in Maryland which had huge tanks of mustard gas like a mile. Away from their house and and ZAPPA's the father actually had skinned tiff that had been done with chemicals because he got paid extra if he agreed to be a Guinea pig. And had these you know skin tests. That's with chemicals. Done so and Zappa himself had asthma as a child. So by the time they get to California you can imagine the the shaping of the psyche of this guy who saw this horrible stuff that the government was doing that was directly affecting his family. He was kind kind of ones though himself right. He didn't do drugs. I mean is bizarre and wonderful and strange and scatalogical as his music was he didn't do drugs He he told his band members. You know we're GONNA Rehearse the hell out of this stuff. 'cause his charts were incredibly complex flex unusual time signatures and you know just phenomenal music and agreed variation you know he wrote classical music as well eat. Eat the Sin Clavier Fin Clavier. Some people say but I call it the same clavier which at the time you could load in any tone and you could play it on. The keyboard for the sound of breaking glass could be processed into the clavier and you could play breaking glass On the keyboard In any event he was kind of a remarkable guy to work with and you know show up at his house where writing session and he had fee span and C. Span two on and he'd be listening to the debate of you know the Congress and he it'd be Briley you. That guy is full of crap. I that guy just took money from selling so he was so knowledgeable about the corruption that he was obsessed with it. Ah amused by it. And of course he's a great hero because the Parents Music Resource Center which was trying to censor rock music lyrics with with timber them covers Tipper Gore right. Al Gore was was on that committee and tipper was part of PM. Morrissey so James Baker's wife Secretary of State James Baker that Zappa took tens of thousands of dollars in one thousand nine hundred eighty six dollars out of his own pocket to fight you know what the PM Marcy was trying to do and partly through. His efforts failed so he was rather patriotic. He put his money where his mouth was about politics. Also Kinda came across from what little I know touch cynical put touch. He was very cynical but he wasn't so cynical that he dropped out of trying to change the system. This this was is a guy who's more libertarian. than he was democratic he wanted he wanted the country to keep its hands off of you know his pocket book which is a very Lubar -tarian value and don't forget I mean he was a combat. A composer conductor a musician and engineer producer looser and a distributor of his own music. And then he went off into when he did video he also funded that himself. That's typical Libertarian Shall we say combination intern. Because somebody who is so self reliant and smart will often skew libertarian. Because they're in the motive. Leave me alone you know. Well a lot of musicians have been ripped off historically because they didn't pay attention to the contracts they were signing and that was I'm in charge and I will do all the necessary footwork in order to look over contracts because I want to be the boss. I'm wondering what he would think of spotify and things like that now he would hate it by the way John McLaughlin to wonderful electric guitarist who was using the mob each new orchestra and I got to interview him for music power talking about Jimi Hendrix and mcglaughlin told me that that's he knows who had a million hits on spotify and get pathetic royalty checks. Oh yes they are not being compensated. -tated fairly so in essence. Unless you're one of the very few who break big and you get a lot out of television promotion. You can still be a band that gets a lot of renown and a lot of hits and a lot of sales and you. You can barely make a living. And that's a very sad change in the music industry and and mcglaughlin also told me another thing which I agree with with and makes me a little sad. When he left Miles Davis and he started working with his own band the Mojave Snow Orchestra? They used to pair them. mm up with country rock bands and hard rock and folk rock and in a way they would team up people it with with other people that weren't in their genre and people's attitude and going to live music was oh this is going to be kind of interesting. Let's see who's supporting John McLaughlin and sometimes it worked and sometimes people said I don't care I just WanNa see John McLaughlin but you won't see that anymore anymore. You won't see mixing genres in live. Music acts in the US anymore. That's too bad some of that was created by I don't know if you've seen I think it's called corporate radio but in the late nineties. How all of the radio stations you know? Change the laws up and they consolidate its. He had clear channel and groups like that to wind up owning like every radio station. The same town will look. Jazz is music in the. US is always going to be very select and it's always going to be more popular in Europe that's just about tastes. What clear channel did was it? Also eliminated this jockeys influencing the playlist because all of a sudden it was corporate and all of a sudden. The corporation Shen owned more formerly independent station. It's the same artists right around the early eighties are still there. It's time you know you. You know you're talking to a Guy Eric who's cranky. Not a hippie. I I kinda missed the whole hippie thing. I was too young for that. But but the ethos of experimentation and open-mindedness is very important to me as a creative person. So whether I'm writing or I'm working as literary consultant and finding out what the client wants to do and encouraging them no matter whether it's you know something that's very specialized and we'll have a big audience. If the client wants to do it. I want to help them get there and I grew up on radio in the bay. The area in San Francisco so we're talking about Cam. PX KFI IN THE FIRST TWO FREE-FORM FM stations in the country. And those guys would walk into the studio Eric and go okay. Well you know I just heard about this band. You know the pen tangle and they kind of are medieval evil England folk music but then we're going to follow that up with Jimi Hendrix and then it will be Odeta and then buffy Sainte Marie and they would play such a unique combination of music that you could be exposed to stuff you would never hear otherwise and that's not really possible anymore and it makes me really cranky but at the same time I hate to say the independent artists are out there Youtube has been a channel for some artists who never would have gotten discovered come out and by taking a hit us you know the money out of out of it now. It's really kind of. They have have to really believe and really go at it because they're not gonNa do it for the bucks we'll let me put it this way. I think that this is the best time ever in history to be a fan of music because spotify and Youtube and all the different methods of dispersing music. It's fantastic you know. Oh you don't just listen to your. Fm Am radio anymore but the problem goes back to John. McLaughlin talking about spotify. It's harder than ever to make a living as a musician. Same thing is true in books. You know there's been a retraction and publishing it. Sounds like we're going around and around. It's it's it's the corporate talkradio you know. It's five or six companies owning all the major publishers. If you said to me Brad you can publish your own book right now. And and put it on kindle. I'd go great. Do you think you're gonNA make much money. As as getting a book published the by a Major New York publisher probably not unless you're yelled unity and left. Money is what I'm saying right. It's a weird. Yeah it's it's a crazy Z.. Balance I was GONNA say unless you're James and she managed to pull one out. Yeah yeah or you know. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. E Book Publishing Eric is Actually a very great place for Genre Publishing You know dark gothic stuff. Very sexualize D- novel Romance novels especially those. Because I feel like those are the novels. People wouldn't read on the train because the cover would be up but how nobody Kazuya. That's right that nobody can see that salacious artwork on the cover. Those are also driven by incredible fandom. So and that's that's part of the effort for bands and authors who aren't with the nature label or publisher. Is You gotta find a way to find your audience and it takes a lot of work. It's really a fulltime job. So you need the money to hire you. Know Somebody who's great with with publicists. You know who are really connected or someone who can manage your your social media network and and that's something you have to do every single day so when I work with an author who says well. I want to write this book Allen Self Publish it I said well I'll help you get it as good as you can with my notes which you know that it's GonNa take a lot of work Oh No I don't WanNa do that. I only want to write the book. All right. Well then hire someone who's great great with social media you know. I want them to know what they're up against. Well can we discuss efforts saying because I think it's important there's a lot of creators who listen this is a podcast And it's a similar principle. What I believe is it takes a good three years or more to actually take hold and I'm speaking of especially from like a podcast area but books probably? Aren't that different either. Take some time will. I'm sorry to say again if we're talking about the model model of the big five or six in New York publishing you have a very short window much like if you're making a studio movie in Hollywood it you'll be in stores. Only as long as the book is selling well now. This is of course aside from Amazon which drives online sale. So if you write a book and nobody's heard of you and somehow it's a breakout success. They'll keep it in the stores as long as it selling. Don't forget the volume of books. Being in published traditionally means that. If it doesn't do well you got two months three months. You know now you can still be a success. If you you have efforts to use social media to drive people to Amazon Barnes and noble and all the other online publishers are fraction. Action of what Amazon is Amazon's the big dog. Yes eighty twenty rule In first mover advantage. But yes. Yeah so you can still. You could still fail in the stores and still have a financial in creative success If you drive online sales but you've gotta find your audience audience and in its fraction. Aided you know well audiobooks also have really taken off. Yeah I noted when we talked before before we started recording. That you like listening audio you listen to the audio revolutions end direct and that was incredibly fun but I learned a number number of things about the audio book industry. I didn't know and one is. They go really fast. You're recording being A. You know what was it is eight or nine hours revolutions. And I went into studio here in Los Angeles. That's part of you've The the Producers House he has a home studio. And you're doing six hours of talking today and I'm like can I have a break here. Yeah you can have fifteen minutes to have some hot tea and then we're back in those work we want. We want you to finish in four days brutal and could God God you know I'll be. I'll be lucky for my voice. Start cracking at the end of this interview but it was also incredibly empowering and and I know that it's a different experience here. Someone read a book to You than it is to to read it yourself. And some people have an inclination to e books and some Mike Physical and so Mike Audio. What's timing thing? It's the same reason. PODCAST SIR are very popular to you. Could do two things at once. I can be reading a book while mowing the lawn while doing dishes. We'll drive into work. that that allows me to time into the day. You know what's really ironic ironic about it though. Eric is that radio. Drama is not successful still as a medium in this country and this is the Golden Age podcasting. I'm looking developing a podcast by the way For Death in paradise my book about the La Karner Nice. That'll it'll go. Well Yeah and you know true. Crime Kinda drives podcasting. so that's kind of a natural fit but I love radio drama and you would think would so many people listening to podcasts. That they would be exploring that avenue as well. So it's out there Laura I believe is audio drama Lot audio drama. It's coming up I. I hope so because it's got big programming from from radio stations. Oh no no no no. It's independence but what's happening happening is. It's big enough that like podcast movement. Which is the largest conference has a track? Just radio drama Yeah I was lucky enough to A gap the science fiction work two of my favorite writers Ray Bradbury who I knew before he died. Really wow I I did a short story. It's called the one who waits about a well on Mars than habits the spirit of all the dead Martians. And then when an American American NASA crew land on the planet the Voice of the well takes over each of them psychically. Until they're all doc dead and they join with the will as one very spooky and and then the other is probably my favorite science fiction writer Philip K Dick Dick. He had a short story that I did for NPR's well called Fails pitch and this was you know. Usually Asli Science. Fiction isn't very funny. They're usually very dark or it's driven by hardware and violence but fails pitch is a future future where you walk down the street in your town and there are robots better constantly going. Hello Eric Hundley I would like to offer you my services and they try and sell you on stopping and they drive you crazy. And you'd Alenia loan in everywhere you go are fails robots and if one gets in your house they don't have the lead. Have you been open with that. Have you been on facebook lately. It's the same thing. Yeah and so. It's the story. One Guy who hates what side societies become in a sales robot gets into his house and won't leave until he finds the contract that have the sales robot fix everything that's life life and eventually he kind of loses it goes. I'M GONNA take my commuter rocket. Go to that vacation planet and get away from all this. So that's sales pitch and Philip. Philip K Dick was really I think maybe the greatest science fiction writer because the variety of concepts humor humor versus dramatic He explored Mind control he explored the identity of what it is to be human. You know he eh. He was just beyond most writers. What I think is funny? I kind of consider Philip K Dick to be like the velvet underground of of science fiction. You know the old saw the velvet underground not meet people bought their albums but everyone who did started a band Yeah Not many people read Philip K Dick but everyone who did was the SCIFI writer. Yeah but they do now. And what's really tragic about it. Is You know the the van Gawk principle you know. Yeah now you're now you're painting self or you know eighty million dollars but during your lifetime. You are this poor charting that you know well. Philip K Dick was living in an apartment in Fullerton in Orange County. I I been to it. It's no great shakes Powell and once he died bladerunner bladerunner comes out. And now you have to pay plenty to get the rights to even a short story. I don't think that radio series I I wrote sales pitch for could could actually be done today because it would cost too much for the rights it was produced and aired on NPR You know when you could actually afford to pay for the rights. Now you've got to be you know deep-pocketed and of course there are very many film and and Television projects based on his work. But all of it has come after Porterfield left us so I feel bad about that. Wow now to well for today. We're up to wrap it up because we're going to run. We could go on for four hours and and unfortunately not Joe Rogan. Can't and I I'm going to have to take a lot more lozenges if I do that. Exactly so To wrap things up bad curiosity about the guy who wrote a blurb on your book t Jefferson Parker. Wonderful Jeff Parker and I. We're on a panel when death in paradise my book the La Karner came out and we became good friends. I wrote an interview with him up up for the writer magazine and then when I was doing revolutions in I sent it to him and he loved it. He he He started out in journalism as a lot of very successful. Mystery and suspense writers. Do Conley I think's another one Prankul Conway is also another. That's right so so he knows how to tell a really well pay story but there are elements not only of drug cartels and sheriff's deputies. He gets into you know demonic possession. He gets he has three poetic sense. And the one thing I can tell you Eric when I interviewed him is He doesn't read a lot of true crime or suspense fiction. He reads novelists and I think that's pretty interesting that he understands that the dimensionality of characters is something you'd see more in literary fiction and his training as a journalist list teaches him how to really pay a great novel so that you're turning the pages and the blending those two styles I think is is something that really makes him well three time Edgar Award. Winning is the only ones. Yeah yeah very low key guy. I can't believe how ego lists. He is 'cause I've met a lot of Showbiz people who I admire. But you know you kind of want to slap them with fish sometimes because they're just arrogant and Jeff Parker if you just bumped into him somewhere you'd say oh you're kind of a surfer. You have probably a surfboard company that you own on in in Huntington Beach No. He's one of the great you know. Crime novelist of all time. Very cool guy. That's awesome and what is coming up next for Brad Schreiber. Well I'm working on a memoir. That takes place when I was seventeen to twenty two years old and a lot. Lot of crazy stuff happened Also I have a partner and we're taking death in paradise and developing it for both a podcast cast and for television cool and and I love doing. I'm GonNa continue doing the tours for. So Turek there might be a Manson book in there somewhere because the research that I've found from France and land like stuff I've found for the LA and revolutions in still it has been published so again maybe it's up to me. Sit Down and do the damn thing. It'll sell Manson cells there. There you go. And I recognize ignites that too radical politics in the seventies probably doesn't sell as well as drugs in Hollywood and all all the madness connected to the Manson story. We'll fantastic now. People can follow you at Brash. CYBER DOT com. Yeah Yeah I used to working. KCET as a writer producer. And I pick up. The phone was rushed. I go wherever wherever you have ended up from when Brash cyber fiber so that's my website. I'm I'm at Brad Schreiber on twitter. I Have Archives of my writing if you WANNA go to huffing and poster Mr Medium. I do journalism there. But mostly it's Through my website that I connect with people and have samples of my work can and loved hearing from people. You know I love that people come back into your life sometimes. Six seven years after you worked with them shifting principle fantastic and a breath. Thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed it Eric. And thank you for the six to ten hours. You have to spend learning about me no worries I enjoyed it me too. Thanks for listening. And if you like what you heard please consider subscribing for free and I mean for free it is always free. There's no billing anything else you can subscribe in your player of choice which is probably right in your hands or you can good unstructured pod dot com and there are plenty of links there. Thank you so much much and in the spirit of sharing. Here's a couple more shows. You may want checkout. Am Studio Steve Veronica and we we have a podcast all about about podcasting we cover everything related to the craft. How to start a podcast improve the podcast? How to promote PODCASTS and how to reach a bigger audience so come come check out our podcast? pod Sound School. We're on all of the podcast players or on our website. POT SOUNDS COOL DOT com. We are dedicated to provide our pot skis. With up to date EC. 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Charles Charles Manson Eric United States LAPD Symbionese Liberation Army CIA Donald Trump Brad Schreiber Governor Ronald Reagan California writer Patty hearst Vacaville Dick Russell Black Panthers Los Angeles Philip K Dick Dick Colin Powell Oakland
Forget What You Think You Know About The Manson Murders

1A

36:48 min | 11 months ago

Forget What You Think You Know About The Manson Murders

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply this is one A. on Todd's will like in for Joshua Joshua Johnson in Washington fifty years ago at this very moment police in Los Angeles. We're on the hunt for the perpetrators of two horrific murder scenes now now one month before on a night in August in nineteen sixty nine. The followers of an ex con named Charles Manson brutally killed five people in a house on Cielo drive. Dr Including actress Sharon Tate who was eight and a half months pregnant Jay sebring watch for caskey Abigail folder and eighteen year old. Stephen Parent died as well that night the next night across town. The Manson family killed a grocery store chain owner Leno Labianca and his wife Rosemary. The country was upended. d- by these murders the image of flower child hippies morphing into fears of drug addled violent counterculture inosine described by one investigator gator is reminiscent of the weird religious right five persons including actress Sharon Tate were found dead. Mistake was eight months pregnant and was found with a rope around her neck. Jack attached to the body of a man. They were discovered this morning by a maid who ran screaming to neighbors. One officer summed up the murderers when he said in all my years. I I have never seen anything like this before that was a newscast from CBS News nineteen sixty nine in August the aftermath of the Cielo drive murders fifty years later Manson and his cult remain a symbol of brutal American violence and the Ugly Final Act of the nineteen sixties now some of you who were alive during those murder her shared with us what you remember about those times hi my name is Maria right after the Manson murders. I was in the library in my in middle school and I happened to be looking at life magazine and they had photos of the murder scene. I never I got them. They haunted me for years. I wish I would have never seen those pictures. My name is Jim. I live in Chapel Hill North Carolina my wife and I you were born in sixty five sixty. Seven one thing we had in common was that is children. We both were terribly frightened by Charles Manson. He was the boogeyman. Would you man for many of us. In our generation high this cat I was about about the third grade when that happened and I remember dominating the National National News and we had a little black and white TV and it was always the at Phnom War footage and Charles Manson's image really that event left such an indelible little impression the Sharon tate murder. It seems that Charles Manson is haunting. Image is just sort of here into my brain is the epitome of evil. Thank Beauty Maria and to Jim and cat for leaving US those voicemails you know Charles Manson became famous after those horrible murders and many of us and I count myself in this camp became fascinated with Manson murders. It's important to remember in discussions about Charles Manson and in this one that this was an American tragedy not not just a true crime thriller but a real American tragedy but here's the question now. What if the infamous story that we all thought we knew about Charles Manson in the family isn't the whole Truth Investigative Reporter Puerto Author. Tom O'Neil spent twenty years filling in the gaps of a narrative that's held up for decades about the Manson family and those murders including what motivated them it's all in his new book chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixty S. Tom O'Neil joins me now from. whyy in Philadelphia Tom O'Neil what a pleasure Thanks for having me and thanks for being here Tom. I I gave some details about the Manson murders what America remembers about them some of the sketchy details as we start it off your described. The story of the murders that America came to accept why they happened. What is it that we believe about these murders. While the official narrative of the story that was presented by the prosecutor Events Pelosi trial then later in his bestselling book helter skelter was that Manson had prophesized a race were that was going to end in the complete termination of the white race with the blacks prevailing he called helter skelter based on biblical typical prophecies and of course the Beatles Song of the same name when the race war wasn't happening soon enough he ordered his followers who are completely lately loyal to him by that point to go out and kill strangers that represented society and represented success that he felt had rejected him his whole life and they were supposed to leave science as he he told them to implicate the Black Panthers so the first night burgers that you described with Sharon tate and four others they left pig written on blood at the State House the Second Night at the La Bianca home and let's feel as they left helter skelter written in blood on the refrigerator death to pigs rise other words and blood at the house Manson had promised his followers that he had located a bottomless pit in the desert and Death Valley where he would protect them during this race war and he said there were rivers of honey and twelve trees trees twelve different kinds of fruits after the race war or ended after the blacks had prevailed he would emerge from that whole with his family and subjugate the black race and replenish she earth with his perfect offspring. That's why the murders were committed. According to the official narrative now let's go back to the time once again you mentioned. Vincent Bugliosi the prosecutor who eventually really put Charles Manson and the family in jail here's bouillaud talking to the press in July of nineteen seventy two ignite helter skelter to start the black white revolution Manson Manson envisioned that white people would turn against the black man if they thought the black men at committed these seven murders and ultimately there would be a civil war between blacks and whites on the street. Manson foresaw that the black man would win this war but later on he said the black man because of inexperience would simply not be able to handle the reins of power so we'd have to look around on at those white people who had survived let escape from helter skelter in other words turn over the reigns of power to Charles Manson and his family why the lobby yonkers and the person's imitate Tate House. Why were they selected by Manson as well. You have to realize that if you're going to have a bizarre Motorola motive like this doesn't really make any difference who the victims are Vincent Bugliosi the prosecutor talking to reporters Tom. O'Neil Vincent Bugliosi put the members of the family in prison he just gave the helter skelter shelter narrative the race war narrative how did this narrative become cemented in the American consciousness well for anyone who followed the trial got more coverage virgin any trial and the history of the United States to that point and probably up until the OJ trial they would have learned about it there but the the book helter skelter that came out in nineteen in seventy four to this day is the best selling true crime book of all time and that really cemented it in in the public consciousness also there was a TV movie Nine Hundred Seventy six based on the book that went over two nights and that was at the time the highest rated TV movie of all time so it became kind of a fixture in popular culture. That's still more or less exist to this day. What's the problem with this narrative well as bullying. OC admitted two or three times in interviews Manson never ever believed that motive unfortunately he never admitted this to me when I was interviewing him when I found out he had said this and earlier interviews he wasn't speaking to me anymore. He was threatening pretty extensive lawsuits and civil action against me so I couldn't ask him if Manson didn't order these murders to ignite a race war than what was the reason he sent his followers to kill the people that they killed the motive falls apart with that and then with the evidence that I uncovered like you said over twenty years of getting documents and original reports from different agencies sheriff's Office Los Angeles Police Department federal files barely tweets this. Please please please please stop referring to Charles Manson as a hippie. He was nothing of the kind the only thing that made him remotely similar to hippies was his long scraggly hair. He was a psychopath path cult leader and nothing more I think that points Tom O'Neil to Charles Manson's place in the violent close of the sixties. He's the protests against violence in Vietnam and and the civil rights movement raging protests and riots raging in American streets Charles Manson and his violent Oakland family have become entrenched in the American consciousness ever since nineteen sixty nine. What do you think it says about us that we're still talking about Charles Manson today and that Charles Charles Manson became an obsession for you. I think Vince Baliles did a really good job propagandizing Charles Manson and the family and your callers is correct. Manson didn't consider himself a hippie he called them he and his followers slippy because they slipped in and out of people's homes and stole things and I did things he had a real disdain for hippies he wasn't about peace and love he was a violent racist and I the life magazine cover that another caller mentioned with that picture of the crime scene was followed three months later by this terrifying photo of Manson on the cover of life looking for all intents and purposes like Satan so that kind of became ingrained in the public consciousness and with that the sixties. Xt's and the Hippie movement also became attached to Manson's face Manson's followers everybody just kind of combine that altogether and as he said he Manson was a metaphor for evil hippies were dangerous the sixties and the free love and and drug lifestyle was something that could create something like what happened on August eighth nineteen sixty nine. We're going to talk a lot more about Vincent Bugliosi. He interacts with you at so many points in the story. How much money did he make off of the sale of helter skelter. I never found that out. I don't know I imagine quite a bit though still bestselling I mean you've gotTa be envious best selling true crime book of all time time even if there are major holes in the story which we're GonNa talk about right right right. I'm speaking with Tom O'Neil. He's author of chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties and we're GonNa talk about all of those things in the subtitle on Todd's glad to be with you you're listening to one eight from WMU in India support for this podcast and the following message come from Google from Connecticut to California from Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American businesses says are using Google tools to grow online the grow with Google initiative support small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching and all fifty states dates helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more at Google dot com slash grow. I can't believe that summer is basically over. I know and you know what that means. The twenty twenty presidential race is only going to heat up. It's a good thing we spent all summer sitting down with the Democratic candidates as for president. Hello it is great to be with you. Thanks for having him delighted to be here. Plus free shipping check out the NPR politics podcast feed for exclusive interviews with all the candidates on the debate stage subscribe. Tom. How did you get involved in the crimes of Charles Manson Manson and the family. You were a freelance journalist in la. I I don't think you've spent your life obsessed with this story. So what was your way in. I actually never read helter. Skelter wasn't wasn't interested in the story. I got a call in one thousand nine hundred nine from an editor of a magazine called Premier I had worked with her and another magazine prior to that mostly doing doing entertainment reporting so this was not up my alley but it was a very different kind of an assignment. She just wanted me to write what would then have been a thirtieth anniversary serie piece about the case crimes how they impacted Hollywood. It was nine hundred ninety nine. I told her I wasn't interested that I'd never read the book and hadn't the spend written to death no pun intended and she said you'll find an angle. You need the job you need the money. I know we're actually pretty good friends and I said okay so I thought it'd be three months of my life. first thing. I did was I got helter. Skelter read the book you know highlighted a couple of sections it seemed kind of if not fully explained to me and then had my first meeting with Vince Breglio see the prosecutor who at that point hadn't prosecuted for years he had left the office office after I think nineteen seventy one seventy two had a pretty successful career as an author written about twelve bucks public speaker and he very generously unwelcomed me into his home in Pasadena and we spent the day together about six hours discussing the case and at the end of the six hours. I realized that he hadn't told me anything that he had already written in the book or told a million other magazine interviewers so I did what I what what we call the Hail Mary Pass I asked him. If there is anything he could tell me that had never been reported about this before something new and he could do it off the record for attribution so he paused Austin I could see him contemplating and then he said turn it off. Turn it off for finding my tape recorder so I turned it off and he told me something that was pretty explosive and scandalous. LS and you'll see or if your listeners get the book they'll see what it was towards the end of the book when the off the record relationship and did and I and I was able to use it it kind of sent me down the rabbit hole that lasted for twenty years that little bit of information lead to more and more more where in the end it worked against him because I found out that his whole case Aban or or major portions of his case have been fabricated. he conceal evidence he withheld information. He suborned perjury with some of his key witnesses. What's important in Noah's. He had a CO author and a book deal. prior to the commencement of the trial in June of nineteen seventy and that author curt gentry had a front row seat every day so he had a conflict flicked interest he was playing as much to the future readers of this book as he was to the jury but I'm interested in that moment. You started to describe it. Vincent believes he tells you something off the record. But what did the first piece of paper. You turned the first document. You looked at that made. You say wait a second. This doesn't add up. There's a problem here. It actually okay. WH- was a couple of interviews. I've got exclusive interviews with some of his key prosecution witnesses than one of these people was Rudi Altobelli. He owned the House elsewhere. Sharon tate was killed. He lived in the back house but wasn't there that night he was in Europe with another client. he told me ah or shared information with me after it took a while to get them to really start talking till he trusted me about. Terry Melcher relationship with Charles Manson Jason Terry Melcher Doris Day sun a very talented young record producer talented by his own right and Terry had testified at the trial trial that he had met Manson three times and the last time he auditioned him the Spahn ranch as a possible to produce a record four and wasn't impressed and very politely advise Manson who else he might work with and that was that what I found heard from Rudy. I was that but that wasn't the truth that Manson was much more involved than Melcher and some other Melchior's friends lives and it extended beyond the murder period I didn't and believe it at first and it took me a year but once I got into the first important file really it was a district attorney's file. Leo's zone file at the office at the DA's office. I found documents cooperating that Tom. O'Neil one of the most troubling things that you uncovered in your investigation was this pattern of leniency toward members of the family in the months before the murders in nineteen sixty nine. Maybe even in late nineteen sixty eight a lot of these members of the family had criminal records they were on parole or probation and you document this pattern of arrests and parole violations probation violations recommendations to judges for returns to prison prison and in case after case judge after judge instead of sending these people back to prison turning them loose a free pass not just letting them go in some cases canceling their parole or probation altogether what was going on here well that began with Manson's released from federal prison in March of nineteen sixty seven he was released in Los Angeles and he immediately violated his parole by moving up to San Francisco and turning up at the parole office. They're announcing that he preferred to live in San Francisco. Despite being assigned to Los Angeles now normally that person would have been immediately violated and sent right back to prison especially someone like Manson Hansen who at that time it had spent about twelve fifteen years in and out of federal prisons instead they assigned him a new parole officer who is doing research in the Haight Ashbury district and during the following months Manson got arrested several times and each time the researcher researcher would look the other way and not violate Manson Manson should've been sent back at least three or four times the first year and it was during that year that he became a kind of transformed into the Messiah Masonic cult leader. We all knew and then the question is why why the repeated catch-and-release why the apparent evidence that not only Charles Manson but members of his family who were felons who were violating parole and probation who were giving drugs to minors and were violent. We're being caught and released seems it's implied heavily in your book that they were being protected yeah well. I actually one of the kind of important moments in my investigation negation happened about a year after I'd gotten access to Manson's federal parole file that's where I got the body of the record the documentary record of Manson's catch and release release and the others and I took that to a retired district attorney of he'd been the. Da Van is Louis Watt neck and he spread everything out in front of him on his kitchen table in his house and just started shaking his head and saying this is all chicken expletive chicken expletive again and again is so what are you saying. He goes you know. Sometimes this can be explained by incompetence bureaucracy but this is a deliberate pattern of him being taken in and instead of being being number one charge. The charges were dropped number two. He should have also been violated and he wasn't he said somebody to me. He said somebody wanted him out he was more important to somebody outside than he was inside and I said well who could that have been and he said I have no idea but I'd start with looking at federal law enforcement FBI and then local law enforcement Los Angeles PD Sheriff's. I'm saying so you're saying. He was working for someone he. He said he was an informant and I said well. How can I ever find out who he was informing forward. He goes well. That's why they call them informants you. You won't but you should try Tom. You have a chapter in your book on the Black Panther Party and other left wing groups antiwar groups and the government's programs to actively infiltrate and undermine them people might remember how the F. B. I. in this Britain about extensively in the press today how the FBI secretly taped Martin Luther King Junior incent those tapes to his wife and urged King to kill himself that came from the FBI directly. We've seen those documents in the pages of the New York Times and other papers what was going on with these programs in the late nineteen sixties and acknowledging as you do in the book that this starts just to get into the realm of conspiracy what's the connection to the law enforcement agencies in L. A. That you're talking about well the CO Intel pro program when you're talking about the FBI program that hoover started originally in the forties to combat the Klu Klux Klan then it was discontinued in the fifties and then restarted in mid sixties when the panthers had form A. J. Edgar Hoover Governor Ronald Reagan and President Lyndon in Johnston all believe that the panthers and the Left Wing Antiwar Movement where the biggest threat to national security hoover believed that they were being funded by Communists and he needed a to to get this program to infiltrate I to survival and understand stand what these groups were doing the panthers the Antiwar Movement the Free Speech People and eventually to provoke them to commit crimes that they could be arrested for and then after that when that wasn't enough to provoke them to commit acts of murder against one another and you found out that this program was operating in La in southern California at the time. Oh Yeah in Los Angeles and you know when all of this stuff came out in congressional hearings in the early seventies the FBI admitted to the Komo Intel operations and took responsibility for I think eighteen deaths of panthers or black militants that were the result of them provoking one group against guests another okay so Tom. I I get it. Co Intel was real J. Edgar Hoover was undermining Black Panthers and trying to get leftist to fight each other was trying to undermine the antiwar movement movement Charles Manson in the family may be were being protected by law enforcement but then somebody says wait a second way to seek a second. Are you saying that Charles Manson was an FBI asset that he was important to people like J. Edgar Hoover in the FBI. What exactly man are you saying well. Has Lou Watt neck that. Da and a few other people told me in law enforcement and former into all kinds of things some of them just share information some of them are as I said earlier provoked walked by other informants and agents to become fearful paranoid and then attack which is exactly what Manson did. He believed that the panthers were going to retaliate for him. Shooting a black drug dealer who he thought was a panther about a week about a month before the Taylor Bianca murders and he was paranoid and fearful of that. I'm I'm presenting a circumstantial case that all these elements were there to better explain why this happened when we find out the real reason why it happened happened was incorrect the one that was presented. What evidence do you have. You said it's a circumstantial case but it's an incendiary claim was Charles Manson. It's in a law enforcement asset of some kind I could never say that definitively but I have enough people you'll see in the book from law enforcement who worked with assets assets and informants including the head of intelligence at the sheriff's office saying it's good possibility and does that help explain why he may have been protected before absolute eliminators why the family may have been protected absolutely does it help explain why Vincent Bugliosi presented what you say is such a narrow in sensational and and and false narrative of the motive for the murders exactly and then worked so hard to keep my book from being published. Maybe he just didn't want competition in the market. I mean I'm going for the simplest explanation. You understand source or He didn't want any of this information out there. I brought it all to him. And then he started sending threatening letters to to me to my publisher. It wasn't about competition. There have been tons of Manson books written before mine after his and none of them were competition to him. He did not want the truth about what he did at this trial speaking to Tom O'Neil author of Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. It's called chaos. We'll be back in a moment with your comments questions and more on Tom. O'Neal's twenty year investigation of the Manson murders on this one I saw me misunderstood support for this podcast and the following message come from Uber Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help make for safer safer journeys for everyone all driver partners go through a multi step safety screen before their first trip including driving and criminal history checks and uber is introducing using a brand new safety technology called ride check which can detect a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support to learn more about Uber's commitment to safety eighty visit Uber. Dot Com slash safety when you think of country music you probably have a particular image in mind but as you can imagine the history is way more complicated okay this week on through line we sit down with filmmaker. Ken Burns to talk about his new documentary about the origins of country music through live from NPR the podcast where we go back in time to understand the present. Let's address the problem of conspiracies How do you respond bond. When someone says you don't mind blowing conspiracies they're fun. They're great. They sell books but that's all they are. Usually the simplest explanation is the right one and and here a prosecutor prosecutors laid out a simple case that convicted Charles Manson and members of the family and that's good enough. It's as simple as that I well. I think the problem with that is we need to know who was really involved in how and why these things happen especially something that was so kind of culturally significant as this you know it was a real turning point in American history sexiest. Kinda culminated in this case and represent what people think went went wrong with a whole sixties free love and drug. Ito's I believe there were other people involved in these murders others and there were provocations and I worked really hard not to present anything that I couldn't document in the book because I haven't aversion into being called a conspiracy theorist like probably everyone and instead of finding a like a complete narrative. I just present information. That's provable documented. I've got sixty pages of EDNA. It's to show where the official story is an accurate and invented and you another important moment came when I took some of these documents to the original defense attorneys for Manson and the women and they were outraged. They said that this staff theft has been withheld from them. They would have done an entirely different defense and the prosecution was required by Brady Law to share anything exculpatory. Roy Meaning anything that could impeach one of their own prosecution witnesses for not telling the truth on the stand and I want to point out I mean you uncovered some serious misconduct by Vincent Bugliosi and his team of not only in the courtroom prosecutorial misconduct as you mentioned but also private misconduct. He really became an enemy enemy of yours. I think it's fair to say yeah yeah. He didn't want any of that other information out that involved prior episodes of his own criminal conduct even before he got assigned this this case and then after and some of it is pretty salacious but the only reason I used it was because it also involved court cases you when he was sued for some of the crimes he committed by the victims. He perjured himself. He admitted it later he lied to police. He lied to the media. He was running for office. So you know you have to present kind of a pattern of conduct to support your allegation for the main body of work. which is you know this trial and his conduct and that a- you've you've found out something rather incendiary that I never knew and it's very well documented in the book evidence that Vincent Bugliosi the prosecutor not the defense attorney but the prosecutor prosecutor handpicked the public defender who defended Susan Atkins when she was in grand jury testimony that he essentially manipulated her testimony before the trial even got started before she was even identified publicly as a suspect in the Tate Labianca murders the prosecution learned that she was telling us to cellmates at the jailhouse she was being held on another murder charge carry him and who I mentioned earlier that she and her group were responsible for tate-labianca she had a public defender while court appointed attorney at that point whose representing her in that case and when they realized that she could be a pivotal prosecution witness for them but she was likely not to cooperate they went to a judge in Santa Monica and I've got all all the notes so these hearings that nobody ever seen before our excuse me these meetings at the prosecutions office in Los Angeles and had the judge remove of her legally court appointed attorney and change him switch under her case a former prosecutor named Richard Caballero who did exactly what the prosecution needed him to do and got her to cooperate from that moment on and that was prior to her Manson or anybody being identified in the media as suspects in this case? We shouldn't trust anything that happened after that because from that point on the well was poisoned they planted a prosecutor on and the defense and everything from there in that occurred was scripted by the prosecution office. It's difficult you know in a short amount of time to provide all the evidence I have ab think it is important to emphasize what Baliles he's Co Prosecutor Steven K said to me in an interview on tape on the record when I presented him with all this evidence events and he knew the case actually better than bullied by that point because he stayed in the DA's Office for thirty years he helped prosecute the original trial and three subsequent ones and then he had when I was interviewing him in two thousand and five he was about to retire and he appeared at sixty parole hearings for for Manson Awesome family members over thirty years arguing against their parole and at each of those hearings he had to present a minutely detailed account of their crimes. How why they happened happened. He said you'll never get me to believe any of this happened differently. No matter what you show me than I showed them the documents have and it's in the book he basically sunk into into like a pile of nothingness and his cherish shaking his head saying. I can't believe what I'm seeing here. I don't know what to think. This is Vince his handwriting. This steph was never shared with me or with anybody else. He goes but it's clearly what a different scenario if he did this if he lied about these things as I was showing him then. What else did he lie about. I don't know what to believe about this case anymore now. You don't posit in this book that Manson in the family didn't commit the murders but no but you do posit that there there's enough misconduct enough unreported police activity enough protection that the the verdict if it was known defense attorneys could have been overturned yeah yeah well. That's was actually Stephen. Kay said to me that that day in two thousand and five February when I said to him I go. What do I do with this information now and I could tell he didn't want to say but he said well. You Might WanNa take it to the. Da The current da who was Stephen Cooley and I said what might he do and he said he might call for new trial. Trial overturned the verdicts and call for new trial Tom. The subtitle of your book is Charles Manson the C. I. A. and the secret history of the sixties the CIA is right there in the subtitle in in bold relief and we have to talk about it a lot of people have wondered over the decades how an ex con basically basically illiterate like Charles Manson learned to so adeptly control people with manipulation and with LSD he was a real true expert in in taking over people's minds in their motivations with a combination of affection rejection drugs How did he learn how to do this. What's the circumstantial evidence that you believe leave. That explains how Charles Manson learned how to do this now. We really go down the we sure we we sure do and and it's strange place to go but it's in the title of. Your Book and you write about out in your book how you go down this rabbit hole conspiracy to places where even you don't WanNa go yeah. I I worked really hard to try to stay away and then I kept going back and going back because it was too compelling to ignore in helter skelter in the epilogue. Julio's wrote the One mystery that remains is how Manson learned how to control all these young people's minds so much to the extent that they would go out and kill on command complete strangers with no remorse afterwards that was something that I was kind of haunted by and as I got deeper and deeper in the documents I discovered that when Manson was released and went to San San Francisco in in the spring of sixty seven was assigned to this parole officer who was doing drug research in The Hague at the same time he started frequenting the newly opened Haight Ashbury free medical clinic which opened in June of sixty seven and Manson's parole officer was conducting research out of there along with another psychiatric well-known guy named Dr Louis Jolly in West who was recruiting hippies to to study the effects of LSD on them out of this clinic and what came out in the mid seventies was after congressional investigations sparked by Seymour Hersh is reporting in the New York Times was that the CIA had a secret program twenty years old called operation. I'm K- alterra where they were learning trying to learn how to create Manchurian candidates. People who would assassinate kill other people on command okay so Lewis is John West was you establish a new book was a CIA researcher in using LSD for mind control and who knows and hypnosis and you also established wish that Charles Manson spent some significant time in very close proximity to this man adding clinic in San Francisco and during the period that they were both there the three or four months from about June to September October of sixty seven Manson emerged with this group of women mostly young women couple men who have become com exactly what the ultra program was trying to create program killers who would kill without question. Well book is full of circumstantial evidence conspiracy conspiracy theories plenty of evidence. I want to say it's a very compelling read. This story took over your life for twenty years. He got a book out of it. just briefly. Are you happy. You did it. Oh boy that's a big question sometimes. I still wish I'd never said. Yes to the assignment other times it was you know some of the most exciting times in my life was chasing these leads down and and and getting these documents so I guess today I'll say I'm glad I did it especially when I do an interview like this. You have to read it for yourself. The book is chaos Charles Manson the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. Tom O'Neil thank you so much. Thank you appreciate today's conversation was produced by Haley blasingame and edited by Orion Donovan Smith to learn more about them and the rest of the team visit the one eight dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W. A. M. U. Part of American University in Washington gets distributed by NPR DR until we meet again. I'm todd thanks so much for listening. This is one A. Uh.

Charles Charles Manson Tom O'Neil murder Vincent Bugliosi Los Angeles CIA Sharon Tate prosecutor NPR Manson Hansen Black Panther Party San Francisco officer life magazine panthers FBI Jim New York Times Todd
Sex Cults & Charismatic Perverts Part 2- Ep 022

Rain DeGrey

54:04 min | 11 months ago

Sex Cults & Charismatic Perverts Part 2- Ep 022

"Uh-huh hello and welcome back their podcast listeners say hello hello hello and welcome to part two of sex colts and charismatic perverts. I'm Chris W and joining me on the other side of the bed who could barely see over. My pillow. Fort is rain degray. I'm waving at you over our pillow fort were high tech here so we make pillow forts to bring you the best podcasting experience we possibly can are pillow. Technology is not to be trifled with you. He would be a fool to trifle with their pillow technology not to put any pressure on you but I think I hit it out of the park with part one. N- of Sex Colston charismatic perverts no pressure though I'm waiting to hear what kind of sexy you dug up on the crazy religious fools I feel that I brought some pretty interesting research to the table and I know that you and I are pretty competitive and you think that your Dick is so so massive and that you made the bestest sex Colt podcast that there ever was and I would like to point out that I have great tits yes. Your tits are so huge that I'm sure that your podcast is GonNa be Great. I've just GONNA sit over here. Listen to what you have let let by Dick shrivel back up into my body cavity excellent that fills me with joy if you have already listened to part one which is so awesome awesome and the best way better than part two obviously because you're pretty much according to rain getting my big. Dick in your ear so if that's what you want goal is to depart one of sex colts charismatic already out if your the city. This is probably the podcast directly under this podcast. They can't hear anything that you're saying because you're dick is in their ear. Uh All right. Let me take that out. They've already had my dick in there now. I guess it's time for you to stick your tits in their hair. Basically taken motorboat career whatever rain to the table birthday sculpt however before we get into motor-boating your research I wanNA remind everybody that if you have any questions comments you want to add anything to the podcast. We try to make this and open communal effort. We love it when people call and give us feedback. Give us a call that number is six one four seven three three four seven three nine also known as her six. One four are degrade that is R. D. E. G. R. E. Y. Sometimes people get confused and try and spell it degree with a which is actually kind of genius in retrospect respect. I wish I had spilt it with an a but it's a little late now. Yours is so much more European now. You have a rain with a gray with a C. Were you know you on my feelings on. It's too late now. Oh well wouldn't be alliteration though because at one starts with an hour wind starts with a d. It's week alliteration fedaration but nevertheless it's the in the first name in the last name that repeating pattern would have brought me joy but now it's a an e it's fine. It's okay I'm I've have never focused anytime stressing on. It was a little bit more symmetry in your name. I like cemetery. I ready do motor. Put your research. If you're you just can't stop thinking about my tits will know they've brought them up. I know they're glorious. I enjoy them on the regular. All right here we go part to. I'm curious to hear what rain has seen the second to his blood. LSD When we think of the Manson family we tend to think more of the murders bruce and the sex gets glossed over and lost in the shuffle. The truth is the Manson family got its start. It has a sex colt with charismatic leader long before they ever veered into the murder business. Charles Manson came from a very very rough and turbulent childhood he found himself in a series of juvenile detention centers while still in his early teens it was in the third juvenile detention center that Hugh was sent to the Indian Voice School which was an incredibly strict strict reform school that Manson claims he was I raped early and unwilling initiation into sexuality ability can manifest in a multitude of ways and it is not uncommon for those who were molested or sexually assaulted to become become hyper sexual as a result of this salt. Manson was one of those who reacted to his alleged molestation by becoming hyper sexual. I have a question you said at the boy school. That's where he was. I raped was he raped multiple times. Yes okay what he alleged was that it was a pattern of behavior of not just the counselors slurs but the counselors creating platform where the older stronger boys could do it so he claims that he was raped multiple times and we have to tread carefully say claimed an alleged. I fully believe that he was raped there. He was always kinda shorter kid and he claims that both fueled voice there and the counselors took multiple passes at his regions systematic rape. Yes not just the one and done correct Gotcha and as a result of that he later went onto rape himself as a teenager he actually got in trouble for raping younger boys but it was a case of the abused becoming the abuser so once he himself had been raped then he passed it on on started doing it to others as well. Manson's entire life was a trail of children and partners and wives and the peak of his power a sex Colt of young women who worshiped him like a living God. There is no doubt put that Charles Manson was extremely good at fucking as many followers testified in a blissful Dick metabolized hayes his utilized Dick and drugs as a very effective technique to build up a support structure of dazzled sold young women who would do anything he said up to and including murder a television interview of Manson had had him in pathetically stating that the reason he was able to accumulate an keep followers was because of his pronounced sexual skills hyper focusing on someone with great intent and dazzling them sexually is a very effective technique for habituating people and it is a technique that is frequently used by psychopaths one of the secrets of Manson's ability to wrangle others in addition to a natural born charisma was the fact that he took substantially lower amounts of st than his followers by dosing them at significantly higher levels he was able to stay in control of the situation and guide them accordingly lost people are always looking for answers and for someone to guide them and it charismatic in convincing con man who can fuck like a champ can easily attract dazzled pulled followers creating their very own sex colt so you would give them really high analysis and take advantage of them and insinuate sinewy that he was Jesus Christ and then fuck rains out host of this kind of ties into our last episode where they were telling people to masturbate to have sex thinking about oh Jesus but he himself claimed that he was Jesus having sex with you he liked to stress Charles Charles Manson and pronounce it as Charles is man's son he really really really really pitched the concept of Im Jesus I in the second coming of Jesus you are my disciples and obviously crazed psychopaths or for the mentally unbalanced thinking Jesus as a pretty common trope but it was one that Manson definitely Walden that was his whole pitch is that him and his followers were going to inherit the earth and of course it helped that Charles was the reincarnated version of Jesus Christ so I have noticed that a a lot of mentally unbalanced people think that Jesus or Napoleon Burson mother great personality from history. They've never been in some poop. Monger Committee will times I the Rear Gardy shed of the stable boy henry the eighth stable boy. That's never they're delusional. Fantasies never go that way. They're always Henry the eighth they're never hindered the eight stable boy. Yes I have in San Yeah. They're not in Bellevue screaming from the windows. I was wanting to scrub the flaws of the Great Pyramid. Many of Manson's followers were female and he utilize this them like a tool. Sex can be very valuable. Currency indeed and Manson would often trade sex to acquire the things that he wanted female followers willing to fuck the blind eight-year-old owner of Spahn ranch George Spahn in addition to doing chores and helping with horses kept the family living at Spahn ranch rent free that is a lot of rent-free bodies being housed of course with this much rampant banging. There was a price to be paid. Most of Manson's female followers were constantly gently. Cycling between various states have gonorrhea clearing up the infection only to acquire it again in the free love spirit of the time no condoms were ever used used and there were multiple accounts of men swearing off interacting with Manson's women because they got tired of always picking up gonorrhea this actually ties back to episode one of the sex colts where we had the children of God doing flirty fishing as obstensibly league away to recruit people and but realistically get money for the Church through prostitution. No No flirty fishing not prostitution the to Shin when you're doing it for Jesus is not prostitution even though he said that they're the pores of the Lord Jesus. This is horse. They were certainly not having sex with any random men. They could for money so that they could then donate it to the church. No no they were attempting to recruit and the only thing that stopped that as a recruitment tactic was the advent of AIDS in a surprising twist of fate. It was a beach boy that picked took the doctor's bill for multiple gonorrhea treatments of Manson's followers Dennis Wilson of beach boys fame. No doubt thoroughly relaxed in the brain as many people were an late nineteen sixties picked up two of the Manson women while they were hitchhiking and he brought them to his rented estate for a few hours breeding between the lines. I'm going to guess ask that. There was some banging happening in those few hours where were during their own thirty fishermen right they. Oh Yeah you're right. They were doing thirty fishing so hot. Manson followers or hanging around hitchhiking to seeing what's GONNA fall in their lab. In this case it was a drug addled beach boy which was quite officie to fall on their lap. Did he tell his female followers to go out and foot with guys and try to pick people up that they could take advantage of specifically the people that were involved in the music industry. I haven't seen that is an exact order. That certainly did seem to happen. I think there was just a lot of banging. LSD It seemed more likely that they did a lot of hitchhiking the no one really had cars and people were just more inclined to pick up hitchhikers. I haven't seen anything in specific that states that he was sending out followers as much as he would say you know at parties or occasions or get togethers others find a dude fuck him and bring him into the family but I don't know if it went so far is that he was sending them out to hitchhike specifically to try and recruit more people people not simply the day after Dennis Wilson picked up these two Manson family members and brought them back it to his place to hang out for a few hours the next day he came home from a recording session and he was greeted by Charles Manson in his driveway. which is I'm home in? Oh what are you doing in my driveway. You strange little man with Sterry is I didn't have the swastika tattooed on his forehead. That point hadn't happened yet but I'm sure that he packed a lot of presence since in indeed menace at the time one of Manson's favorite bits to do is that he would offer offer to let someone kill like if someone had trouble with him or some sort of conflict one of his goto moves was to say fine then you can kill me and one hundred percent of the time didn't matter who he was offering. Go ahead and kill me. The person would say no they would turn down that offer and then Manson would flip it and say okay well I offered that you could kill me and you didn't go through with it but that means now I can kill you. It was a psychological tactic that he used and he knew that the person that he offered to kill him would never take him up on it and he was always able to flip that as now. I have the right to kill you. At any time. I got to try that at some point just offer somebody I could give you a hundred bucks and if they turn me down well now you owe me hundred bucks or anything else rb willing to give you my car and if is now the non taking yours that is Charles Manson logic evidently Manson was so off putting that Dennis asked Manson if he intended to hurt him and Charles said that he had no intention of doing so and then dropped to the ground and begin kissing Dennis's feet. This was a common trope that Manson Manson was using at the time he liked to do a lot of feet kissing he was really dabbling with the Christianity and Jesus mythos and he loved dramatically start kissing people's feet or having his feet kissed the situation diffused Charles. Manson walked Dennis to his house. Were Dennis found twelve strangers ensconced in his house very specifically twelfth wealth with Manson being the leader of the thirteenth making reference to the apostles. I am indeed because Manson did a lot of Souza's Christ mythology and maybe it was a complete coincidence that the day after a beach boy picked up two of his family members Manson decided to move into the Beach Boys House that he brought twelve people but those were the people that showed up twelve and Manson. That's thirteen could be a coincidence bud considering how deeply he was into the Jesus stuff. I don't necessarily think it was once most of the strangers that had suddenly appeared in Dennis's house were female and Dennis did not object. I know that if I came to my house and found thirteen strangers living in it ah I would most certainly object but then again I've done significantly less drugs than a beach boy over the months the amount of people living rent-free free with Dennis doubled and the final bill for their upkeep was approximately a hundred thousand dollars in nineteen sixties money which would be you roughly eight hundred thousand dollars in today's money and a large cost of that bill was search for multiple doctors visits to address the ongoing gonorrhea issues. That is a lot of clap. There was a a lot of fucking. There was evidently no protection and my thought is I don't care how old I am on. LSD and how much I'm convinced the Charles Manson is Jesus. How many times do you need to get gonorrhea before you say I need to make some changes because this isn't working because inconvenient to be constantly constantly cycling through gonorrhea right to be fair twenty. One thousand dollars of that bill was an uninsured car. Ah Dennis Dennis that was crashed by the family because when you're busy being a rock star you have no time for petty concerns such as ensuring your vehicle so they borrowed his uninsured vehicle crashed it and then Golly Gee wokers sucks sorry about that no doubt on the way to the clinic. Eh Yeah probably the family would not move out. Even after Dennis left when the lease expired they kept up squatting there and eventually the owner of the house had to legally evict the family once they no longer had a beach beach boys house to squat out in the family started looking for alternative living situations and after a number of of places. They ended up at spahn ranch. It was the relocation to spawn ranch. That really shifted the family dynamic from sex coal to murder ranch was incredibly remote and isolated and had a surreal quality of a movie said which it in fact was the day's blended into each other and there was no set schedule with such an energy of play-acting and extreme isolation paranoia began to develop develop. The family acted at being pirates in various imaginary characters distancing themselves further and further from reality aided did in a bedded by massive. LSD consumption eventually the energy shifted from sacks to aggression against the outside world with inevitably lethal consequences. If only he could have stayed away from murder. Manson could have surrounded himself with a flock doc of willing women who worshiped him as God for his entire life. It wouldn't have been a bad life even factoring in all of the endless cycles of gonorrhea stick with the sex avoid the murder. Is that the moral of the story. That's the moral of this particular story. Get so distracted by the murder that you give up this X. No don't do any murder. Stay just with the banging. You can be pirates and have lots of sex with each other but don't murder anyone. That's the moral of this particular story previously on dirty talk after hours you ready for this final Bali. I'm ready do it overnight. It looks like they're regrouping. Oh crap There's there's no laughing scratching scratching scratching. There's nothing so don't I need to get out of here. I freak out there again. I can't be here. Don't talk to seal scratching the golf. I'm not into correct. I'm not touching you touching. Nothing's touching poor you know man is out how does adding afterthefact already for me dirty talk dog after hours available screws of Patriarch every Monday. Uh If you do want to get access to the dirty talk after hours podcast you can get it in one of two ways. You can follow rained gray on patriotic at patron. Dot Com backslash rained gray. You have to type it out. Exactly I'm not searchable because some naughty. She has been and blacklisted. She's in the adult ghetto. I'm a bad bad girl or you can head on over to our brand spanking new shiny you dirty talk podcasts patron which is patriotic dot com backslash dirty talk podcast either way. If you pledge at five dollars dollars a month you will get exclusive weekly access to the dirty talk after our podcast okay so your first story was about the notorious Manson and an incredibly high gonorrhea ria bill that is correct. Manson would be considered fairly notorious charismatic pervert. I'm curious to hear your whittles. You have my second story has William burroughs. Jd Salinger and Norman Mailer are they all charismatic perverts. Oh Yeah I guess so but they are not the e charismatic pervert this second stories about when it comes to new charismatic perverts it is hard to be Wilhem Rice born on March twenty fourth eighteen ninety seven. He was a psychoanalyst psychoanalyst who is incredibly fixated on sex yes even more so than the average psychoanalyst and I know that saying something he came up with a number of theories including the concept of muscular armor which stated that a person's personality listen -ality was tied into the way their body and muscles moved so depending on how you held your body and what tensions you did did was tied into what your personality was his treatment for the muscular armor situation involved having patients disrobe robe and giving them rub downs to shift their armor so you're a little tightly strung or you have a bad attitude or aggression issues news. I'll give you a rub down shift your armor and it will change your personality preserve happy ending with Rome. No maybe he believed that neurosis was rooted in sexual and social economic conditions ends in particular a lack of what he called or gastric potency you promoted adolescent sexuality contraceptives perceptive abortion and divorce at a time when such topics were still extremely taboo it is safe to say say that he was definitely a sexual trendsetter but where he really stood out was in his theory of organ. Have you heard of Oregon Oregon. No that's tate throat above us or gone was a mixture of the words orgasm an organism and was supposedly a potent biological energy. The concept of sexual energy being able to be created created harnessed is not a new one and we touched on it in part. One of this sex cult podcast the sexual energy. If you build up enough of it you will be immortal right charge those sexual batteries and you can live forever and the way to pull this off is by having a lot of sex. I mean I get. It's a pretty appealing pitch. Sexual energy certainly can seem very potent. Why couldn't you harness it in such as such as I don't know immortality in ranks case he decided that this energy could be harnessed by hanging out in organ accumulators which were essentially essentially elaborate boxes that people could spend time in and marinate while soaking up all of the accumulated Oregon so Oregon was just free free floating energy in the air right so you didn't necessarily build it up through the process of having sex you could just captured airline Ehrlich breath Aryan would live upon it well. There were multiple ways to access this energy. It was drifting all over the place but then you could also charge it up yourself yourself but these boxes were away to focus and channel this energy good line new time. Why are you. What are you doing about from there for so Laura. I'm just charge my battery. Damn Mom always got a bug me. When I'm charging my battery he's built it up some Oregon on energy and here this Oregon boxes were credited with a multitude of abilities including improving one's health improving in sexual potency and even shifting the weather people focused on the sexual benefits over the improved health and weather shifting shifting abilities and the organ accumulators actually acquired the nickname sex box sex box. I think of something else. Would I think of sex box of course you do because you're the sex boxes picked up many fans along the way including William Burroughs J Eighty Salinger and Norman mailer the tie in the name drop the very beginning see it all comes around that would be an interesting name Emperor Band though sex box quick trademark then that's a good idea. They heard it here. Nobody can steal though Norman mailer had multiple apple sex boxes and boroughs was particularly enthusiastic proponent and he built his own organ accumulator believing saying that it helped him with his multiple episodes of heroin withdrawal so whenever he had to kick he felt that hanging out in his organ accumulator made the experience less unpleasant. was there anything in particular about these boxes that help them gather. Oregon over any say airplane pine box. You could hang inside. There has been some debate that it's better if the materials are pure so if you have it's it's is basically wood and metal constructed but when people get really focused on this boxes like well you need to have organic would and what ethically traded member another hardier have non-organic would where would cut from. Was it something that was sprayed. Did it have pesticides or was it natural and growing out in the forest there certainly would pressure sure treated wooden planks of wood that were chemically raised in tree farms and full of all sorts of weird growth hormones. Their Yanic just means anything that was is grown naturally occurring so are you saying that the fruit trees are grown in naturally naturally occurring because of that stuff is not organic. It is sprayed in pesticide with an inch of its life restore organic compounds and if you were to we disagree when it comes to building these xboxes. I can seize Oh. You're being combative. You're all the buzzwords fierce xbox you shut your face. I want my free trade trade ethically source sect it's okay first off. The sex box doesn't work. We can all establish that but we'll your we. We can't Dr Sex boxes to we. Try the sex boxes don't work. We're going to want to get inside some sex box. You know what you can google organ accumulators online and you can find the instructions and you can make your own sex box are probably could buy I want on that see. You probably could imagine that the shipping costs would be fairly substantial because their boxes big enough to hang out in so that it's not easy to ship aren't. GonNa get this xbox. I'M GONNA go with it. I'M GONNA come out with a raging hard on and I'm not gonNA share fine. Unbelieving sex blocks right great xbox getting any ahead of my sex box is what I'm saying are eight and you'll shirt show me. I'll be punished as a result. I'll just get frustrated and take it somewhere else to someone who is willing to share. didn't think that went through did you find your free to what you walk in in the end after the claims of the abilities of the organ boxes became more and more elaborate the FDA stepped in on the grounds that false in misleading claims were being made and they put down injunction that basically said to Reich. You're very naughty. Stop that and was unable to comply with the injunction. He truly believed in the power sex boxes and not even the. FDA could stop them from advocating advocating for it. He ended up my call. deadheads government will take my sex box my cold dead hands he actually ended up jailed and all material relating to Oregon at his institute was destroyed because he could not comply the FDA injunction. This was a man who really really believed in his sex boxes or go on is discredited concept today but boxes can still be found as well as the instructions on how to make your very own most likely on Azi. I'm certain through Oregon boxes on Itsy. If you really need to sit in a giant wooden and metal box to accumulate potent ewing sexual energy it is always an option who knows you might get something out of it. I personally still prefer the old fashioned method marches bumping jumping uglies. Why do you have to general shame. I wasn't gentlest Asari bumping glorious beautiful natural official organs scare. You go much better. We're in a PC world. My friend tread carefully. Someone will write in and complain. You'RE GONNA RUB my pistol against your pedals else. Yeah okay. That's got a nice flow. You're snorting and you're rolling your eyes me find. No one's rubbing anything anywhere happy fun fine. I'm just GONNA go hide inside my six box. Touch myself have fun. Hey everyone this is rain degray. If you want to keep tabs on me and check out all the cool stuff undoing you can head on over to my website rain degrade dot com and while you're there sign sign up for my newsletter so that you can stay in touch and if you were on twitter check me out at either rain degree or the dirty talk cast dirty talk podcast says a new twitter just search twitter for dirty talk podcast or Addis at dirty talk cast this last story that I have to share with you. All today might seem like a little bit of the detour but hear me out my last case study is Dr John Kellogg it might seem on to include clued doctor. Kellogg in a podcast about sex colts and charismatic perverts but there is no doubt that he was a charismatic pervert charismatic anti perver- out okay in his case. He was simply the opposite side of the coin. He was just as fixated on sex. Trust me excited. He just believed in avoiding it at all costs. Dr Kellogg is mostly known for his association with Breakfast Cereal but the sexual fixation should not be forgotten in the shuffle. Dr Kellogg ran the Battle Creek Sanitarium with an extreme focus on healthy living or as Dr Kellogg called it biological logical living biological living included exercise lots of vigorous physical activity eating grain and vegetable based Diet Diet with no meat no caffeine no tobacco no alcohol extensive thorough cinemas and I and most importantly massive sexual restriction people were no doubt healthier than they would be otherwise while also being bored out of their healthy minds his dietary restrictions were so severe that right on the outskirts skirts of the battle creek sanitarium people could sneak away and go meet. There's no meat allowed the sanitarium in even doctors and orderlies and the staff was known to tip toe off and sneak out to go get a burger and there was actually a small restaurant that was available as a refuge so the people that were trying to be healthy do biological living at the Battle Creek Sanitarium could have hidden place to go smoke and drink and eat a bunch of meat so they were cheating beating essentially it can be hard if you're habituated to eating meat to suddenly not have it in your diet and tell yourself. You'RE GONNA be okay with it. The other I would never give it up right. I think a lot of people that were in a situation tried to give it up and then realized that was bullshit and their solution was to sneak off and get a burger. Dr Kellogg wrote extensively about the dangers of masturbation a habit he called the solitary vice ice he heavily advocated for circumcision as a way to stop children from masturbating and believe that sex should only happen happen in marriage and then only for procreation sex outside of marriage and not for procreation sapped the soul and the spirit and Dr Kellogg was packed full of both spirit and soul and probably spunk because if he wasn't letting go I'm sure is packed full of spunk doc well so that's interesting hear me out. I have a theory he had eight adopted children in zero biological children and I think it's safe to assume there was not a lot of procreative sex happening in his marriage. I've actually really always secretly believed that his extremist version to sex and masturbation was based on erectile dysfunction which is not something he ever wanted wanted to discuss retreat while I have no proof one way or the other his hyper focused on sexuality and fraught feelings over the topic point at least to me to a man that did not have working erections and the frustration that arose out of circumstances okay so it's a case of if I can't do this thing so therefore this is evil. Nobody else should be able to do it. I've done research on the Kellogg's Brothers before and I had stumbled before on his really strong feelings about how bad sexes and came across crossed the fact that he had adopted children had none of his own and years ago. I came up with the theory that it seemed highly likely that he had dickey shoes and he wanted to make his dick issues something. The rest of the world had to deal with everyone else's problem right. I have heard that he was quoted as saying. Ah Interaction is a flagpole on your grave. He was a man really against Boehner's and I believe it's because he himself did not have any Boehner's and he was resentful. Who knows if he had a properly working. Trouser snake ended up creating his own offspring with his wife as opposed to adopting he might have never had had such a hyper focus on health. We would not have cornflakes to enjoy in our modern age. If the parallel universe theory is correct there is another the universe were Dr Kellogg's. Dick worked and we don't have cornflakes. I think I would rather have fixed symbol man with a heart on eh sexual energy desire can be a very potent force indeed and it manifests in many different ways and Dr Kellogg's case it manifest in years of ranting about masturbation promoting circumcision and vegetarianism and the eventual creation of the delicious cereal we enjoy today of course the cereal that we consume today is nothing like Kellogg's original serial. It is much too sweet and tasty tasty. He believed that everything should be bland and boring and free of sex things that are too sweet or too spicy can get that old libido of flare in in before you know it there are. Boehner's wet holes all over the place and we can't have that the blander and more boring your food. Food was the safer who were from those lustful demon's in your loins the next time you go to enjoy some cornflakes raise your spoon to that sexually repressed doctor in silent tribute and then go rub one out because there is nothing wrong with masturbation. ooh till it makes you go blind. I'm GonNa let you in on a little something my friend masturbation doesn't make you go blind. Oh I know because I I wouldn't be able to see right now. If it did likewise. I think there wouldn't be any like twelve year old boys that weren't walking around with Dr Glasses and McCain my palms. Your Harry and I walked into a wall. I had a teacher one time for a sex Ed class last that claimed the reason why there was a rooster on the box of kelloggs cornflakes was a subtle advertising scheme uh that they came up with essentially saying this product will keep you from Shokhin chicken. I haven't ever been able to find the any backup evidence to this. I think that choking the chicken as a euphemism for masturbation became established in popular culture after the rooster was on the box not before it could be wrong but this came from Mike Godsey from College Marin. I'm just throwing his name out there blaming him. If this is misinformation it's all his fault. The other thing I fight interesting is back in the nineteen. Th Century there was such a common idea that spicy foods or just just anything with any sort of seasoning in it would cause impure thoughts that was actually a very common concept was that any sort of spice and flavor would cause your beato. Also your teacher at college and Ren was wrong. A rooster is on the Kelloggs Cornflake box because a rooster crows in the morning to start their day and many people start their day with cornflakes. That's just cornflake propaganda. Oh I like his version of that. There's a rooster on there because it's going to keep you from Iraq and the rooster rubbing the rooster I should say they or because the roosters also called a cock. He debuted on cereal boxes in nineteen fifty seven and his name was cornelius. TEM IT Mr God see yeah false information. Yes sorry turns that you can't believe everything that people tell you Sir Future Truth Yeah we're we're based on fact but I have found that facts can change over the years for instance people used to believe that masturbation would make you go blind or that bland diet would keep you from masturbating. Both of these things are incorrect. It's interesting to me how many food products we did get from this idea because we got the kelloggs cornflakes. Glenn Graham crackers for the same reason and the Graham crackers that they had back then were nothing like the Graham crackers we have now because they were completely bland flavourless cardboard. That'll keep those lustful thoughts down and from what I've read before Kellogg God. His is idea for the serial from another gentleman. I don't remember his name off the top of my head that invented the first commercially available dry cereal named and Granola Granola Granola which if you could imagine closely resembles grape nuts. Have you ever overhead grape nuts. I have never had greatness in my life. There pretty much just little hard chunks of wheat. ooh okay. I don't think they're terrible but the grape nuts or the granola he came up with he used grams flower to create these things yes and they would put them in sheets and let them dry overnight though the issue was there were completely inedible that way because there are so hard that that you couldn't eat them so what they came up with the ingenious idea was they would soak them overnight in milk to make make them palatable actually edible that is the argument that I've heard as to why we eat cereal with milk is that this first commercially tailable cereal had to be soaked for hours in milk before it was tender enough to eat. I didn't actually come across that and my research when you knew that I was doing a bit on Kellogg you mentioned the Granola and I went and looked it up and I couldn't find anything about their colonel. I suppose it could have looked even harder but I was trying to. I know that they were trying to create their own cereal but I was having trouble finding that granola grape nuts tie-in um. I'm sure it's out there. I mean you're known for going very deep. Indeed so deep in my sex box pervert thanks for Sharon. Is that all you have for the sex golden charismatic perverts for this episode that is correct. I have Manson and sex boxes and flakes well. I'm going to go myself some cornflakes well masturbating thinking about Charles Manson and my sex box have fun. I guess no I don't actually have any questions no carry-on. You go your best self. I'll have all the fun in a couple of hours aw since that's. It's all you have for us today. I want to thank everybody for once again joining us for another episode of Talk Podcast. Yes thank you communit- yeah no honestly yes. I'm getting pressured for not being enthusiastic enough. Would he isn't understand is that I have signed a contract contract because I'm goth and we're not allowed to be super disaster. It goes against contract rules who signed this when you were a teenager and I've honored it none angsty exte- young girl with black hair. Pale skin hockey how you cannot ever be enthusiastic about anything ever correct but I'm very enthusiastic that you all joined us for this podcast. My nipples your fizzing being fizzing. Yes Alan. You might want to go to the doctor if you have fizzy nipple. I feel shamed by you. I'm not sure big you yeah. I like Fuzzy Nipples fuzzy tables fuzzy. No I didn't mean to shame. NIPPLES can be fuzzy. I've known girls. I've called it Hobbit Nipple before for I've known girls that have had to Harry Nipple. You've got some serious. Habit Nichols gone on my friend. We'll discuss. I'm a man shaming any woman that has hobbit Nepal Apple. It's fine. I'll still suck those nipples and I have. I am not ashamed to admit that I have sucked hobbit nipple before okay. Thank you for sharing joyous next. I am where I am sure. We will have many other great inches. Take things it's important information very important information to share an Hobbit nipples. NO WE'RE NOT GONNA share the devils all right no Hobbit nipples progressive before we go. I do want to put my podcast challenge. That guy put out every three time. What's the podcast challenge challenge is if you enjoy this podcast and want to support us go until until at least one person about it just one. Let's all at least one where you could always tell more you could also if you wanted to follow it and read it on whatever platform you you choose to listen to your podcasts on because that helps us get listeners to so if you think what we're doing is fun and valuable share it with the rest of the world because it's it's important to get more ears correct. That's a great challenge. Prove thank you also. If you appreciate the podcast best you can follow us on Patriots on a dirty talk podcast to on Patriots Fan and for five bucks a month you also get our weekly the after hours podcast which is fun and full of a lot more interesting tidbits so if you want to listen to us on a weekly basis ACIS oftentimes coming from strange exotic locales engaging in off defying stunts death defying stunts uh-huh an inexplicable adventures because we're rockstars that leaves the house all the time. I left the house to come over here who is by spur bedroom an interesting exotic location. The can be depending on the situation. I'll I'm reminding everybody now that the podcast can be found on itunes or Google play music spotify stitcher speaker tune in radio. I heart radio pretty much anywhere. You can think to get a podcast. Oh I think we're also on soundcloud. I put for like the last three episodes up on soundcloud so not all the episodes sows are on there because soundcloud wants to charge me money but you can get the last three episodes on soundcloud sometimes episodes depending how long they are and were also on Youtube. We are official youtubers. Are we one of the cool kids now. We were always schoolkids courts. Yes the coolest. We're just that much. Cooler ride had significantly cooler now that we're a couple of degrees also thanks to our honorary producers. If you want to become an honorary producer you can join us on Patriot at one hundred dollar level. You get a shout out at the end of every podcast as honorary producer are honorary producers currently currently are Rolf Hansen and his wife's wives plural because that's how Ralph and his wife's role Yep. He is a very very nice interesting Paulie German guy. Thank you so much roth and wives. We couldn't do it without you and we truly appreciate your vote of confidence. It allows us to keep creating shows like this for everyone to enjoy. That's the devour shameless self-promotion. Thanks again again for taking the time out of your busy busy day to join us on our strange adventure indeed. I guess we'll talk to you next month till next time.

Charles Charles Manson Dr John Kellogg gonorrhea Dick LSD Sex Colston Dennis Dennis murder Oregon Jesus spahn ranch google official Chris W Harry Nipple R. D. E. G. R. E. Y. Boehner San Yeah Dennis Wilson
S3: Best of 2019:  The Source Family Pt. 1: James Baker

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

47:38 min | 8 months ago

S3: Best of 2019: The Source Family Pt. 1: James Baker

"Welcome to podcast presents. The Best of two thousand nineteen we have for you. The most requested episodes of cults else from this year for more great episodes. You may have missed. Subscribe to cults. Listen free on spotify and anywhere. You listen to podcasts off. Due to the graphic nature of this cult's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of material that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for listeners under thirteen one morning in the fall of nineteen seventy seventy a homeless nineteen year old girl in Los Angeles passed by Vegetarian restaurant on sunset. Boulevard in front of the restaurant stood a man man with flowing silver hair and beard dressed in long white robes and surrounded by young people. All in might curious. The girl who later telephoned the restaurant which was called the source and learned that the people she had seen. Were taking a meditation class. From the restaurant's owner that night she hitchhiked through the canyons at one. Am to reach the source in time for the four am class the next morning. The class ended at dawn after word. One of the workers took the girl inside to meet the restaurant's owner the bearded man. She had seen teaching the day before the man introduced to her. Only father. Father look the breathless teenager over. He told her she was finally home. Hi I'm Greg Olsen and I'm Vanessa. Richardson and this is cults on the podcast network. Work every Tuesday. We look at cults practices their leader and their followers. Today's episode is the first of a two part series on the source family a young free-spirited group of California hippies led by the charismatic but dangerous man known as Father Yoed at podcast asked. We are grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter order at podcast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening? It really does help us. We also now have merch had podcast dot com slash merch. For more information you can listen to previous episodes of cults as well as all of podcasts. Other shows wherever you listen to podcasts. A new episode comes out. Every Tuesday Los Angeles California has long been considered the entertainment capital of the world but according to experts. La has another claim to fame as the city that has historically aclu been home to the highest number of cults in the nation blue. Aw No cult has better captured the California spirit than the source family. A loss Angeles based cult in the early nineteen in seventy s that formed around Vegetarian restaurant owner James Edward Baker Jim Baker known to his followers as father yoed and later as has yoga was a powerfully charismatic man who practiced Kunda leany Yoga and promoted an all organic vegetarian diet as a means to perfect kicked health. He was also far from. Your stereotypical hippie Baker was a decorated world. War Two veteran. A Ju Jitsu expert and a former stuntman known to have killed at least two men with his bare hands bakers wild background combined with his passion for organic cuisine became came a powerful draw for his employees and patrons many of whom came to the source seeking more than just a meal in the soul-searching spirit of the sixties and seventies indies. They look to Baker for hidden truths. That would help them. Transcend their mundane and problematic lives from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy five. You've over one hundred. Fifty people gave up their belongings. Their families even their names to become part of Jim. Bakker's PSYCHEDELIC source family early on the surface. They were setting themselves on a path to enlightenment but deep down they were really submitting themselves to Baker's control. This Week Nick will investigate. Jim Baker the mad his life his psyche and his rise as Psychedelic Guru. Father yoed impart to will broaden broaden our focus from Baker to the cult. He founded a robe wearing rock playing raw food. Eating Commun- known as the source family will learn about several members of the cult. And how they're blind. Faith in Baker's philosophies led some to drug abuse mandatory sex rituals even death the man who would one day be known as Father Yoed was born James Edward Baker on the Fourth of July in nineteen twenty two baker was born in Cincinnati Ohio to homemaker Cora and firefighter. Jim Baker who abandoned the family when Jim Junior was only six months ons old. Jim's mother Cora was thus left to support herself and an infant which she managed by working as a housekeeper in Cincinnati however in nineteen twenty nine when Baker was seven years old. The stock market crashed leading to the worldwide financial crisis known as the Great Depression handed declined precipitously almost uninterrupted basis until it reached the pressure low on July eighth nineteen thirty two during the depression. Jobs of any kind were extremely. Hard to come by. Baker's mother was forced to move with her son from town to town just to earn enough money. I need to survive. What's more bigger himself? Had to take odd jobs to make ends meet most of these jobs involved tough physical Labor which Baker later credited rated with helping develop his physique. He claimed that at age twelve. He was nationally recognized as America's strongest boy a claim which given his physical physical feats later in life. May well be true true or not. The story indicates that Baker was determined to put a positive spin on his early life. But things things may not have been as rosy as he claimed between his father's abandonment and the itinerant lifestyle he and his mother endured Baker may have suffered more deeply then he later lead on. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note that although she is not a licensed psychologist or a psychiatrist tryst. She has done a lot of research for the show. Thanks Greg. According to psychologists she Georgi she and Rick Sh- AMAC children who move frequently Bentley at a young age tend to exhibit greater signs of Psychological Disturbance. Later in life. They perform less well in school and report more behavioral problems than there appears from more stable homes. Interestingly Psychologists Richard L. Jenkins and Andrew Boyer have shown these same characteristics to become an among boys. This who grow up without fathers male children and fatherless homes have a higher tendency to engage in delinquent behavior such as truancy assault and defiance of authority as we'll hear later in this episode Baker exhibited all three of these types of behavior throughout his life. So it's safe to assume that he was deeply affected affected both by moving a lot and by the absence of his father. Baker seems to have been aware of his paternal longings and to some extent he learned to cope with them in positive way according to source family member and historian Isis Aquarian in her book the source the Untold Story of Father Yoed Yahuda lot thirteen and the source. Family Baker spent much of his life searching for a surrogate father that search led him to various father. Figures whose philosophies Visi absorbed and identities he mimicked in an effort to shape his own Baker's first major father figure was nationally known health food advocate. Paul Bragg Brag the founder of Brag live food products best known today for their liquid minos palm was also a body builder who traveled the nation in the nineteen thirties giving giving lectures on the health benefits of organic vegetarian. Diet these days the idea that eating fresh organic foods leads to better. Health is pretty widely the accepted but in the nineteen thirties. When many Americans were concerned about simply getting enough to eat it was considered a radical belief and bragged took that belief even further? He began claiming that all illness could be cured by eating the right foods this led some to consider Bryant as a con man and led the teenage teenage Baker to consider him a sage at the age of fourteen. Jim Baker contracted a case of hemorrhoids. So severe that doctors recommended commended surgery. Instead of following the recommendations Baker sought out the famous Paul Bragg and invited him to visit the Baker's home brag accepted. Did the invitation. And while he was there he laid out a diet that he believed would cure the young bakers hemorrhoids. The Diet was basically low fat and high fiber commonly only prescribed today but in nineteen thirty six it was revolutionary bakers hemorrhoids cleared up and from that point on Baker became an avid follower lower of Bragg's teachings bigger adopted a Vegetarian Diet along with Bragg's belief that all illness could be cured by eating the right foods. This belief would one day become the cornerstone of Baker's successful restaurants and of the source family cult in nineteen thirty eight sixteen year old Baker joined the civilian Conservation Corps. This program was established during the depression to create jobs by funding public works projects such as bridges dams and forestry projects. It was the perfect opportunity for the athletic and adventurous young Baker to strike out on his own for the next three years bigger traveled old all over the West putting his youthful energy to good use in productive outdoor labor. Eventually he found work at a printing plant in Chicago. Where nineteen him forty-one at age nineteen? He married the printers daughter Margaret. Most of what we know of Baker's early years comes from anecdotes. He told his followers decades later. Apparently he didn't say much about Margaret and as a result we know very little about her or about their relationship we do know however that they had daughter together in nineteen forty one the same year that they were married. It's safe to assume that Baker whose life was so strongly affected by the abandonment of his own. A father aspired to be a better father himself. But Baker's first attempt at domestic life was cut short in December nineteen forty one when a conflict like that have been raging overseas. Suddenly struck home. United States of America was suddenly deliberately attacked final four of the empire of Japan on December seventh nineteen forty one. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor bringing the United States officially into World War Two moved by a sense of patriotism and probably a sense of adventure. The nineteen year old Baker enlisted did in the Marines Baker's time in the military was a formative experience while stationed on the Pacific island of Guadalcanal. He developed an interest in eastern in cultures. Studying martial arts such as judo and Jujitsu. He became an expert in both these styles and served as a judo instructor in the Marines Baker also began to show signs of an aggressive temper while guadalcanal he got into a fight with the commanding officer and ended up punching the officer in the face. Ace this resulted in Baker being placed in the brig or the ship's jail however in an interesting twist of fate guadalcanal was attacked while Baker was was in custody on January twenty ninth nineteen forty-three in what came to be known as the battle of rental bakers ship was bombed by Japanese fighter. Planes and Baker was released from the Brig to abandon ship. Baker disobeyed orders choosing instead to remain on deck and commandeer the antiaircraft guns. He shot down thirteen Japanese planes before his own ship sank in action which earned him a silver star. The third highest personal decoration awarded awarded for Valor in combat in nineteen forty-five following the Japanese surrender. Baker returned to his wife and Child and Chicago. Baker was twenty three by this time and with Silver Star and an impressive work record. There was little preventing him from getting a good job but instead of settling down into a career that would have provided for his family. Baker began jumping from activity to activity opening a gym acting in plays and competing in Jujitsu. Suffice it to say this dessel torey lifestyle was not exactly the blueprint for a stable home life. The turbulence reached a peak around nineteen forty eight when at aged twenty six baker abandoned Margaret and their daughter and drove to Los Angeles on a motorcycle to audition for the film franchise role of Tarzan given given how deeply affected baker had been by his own father's abandonment. This may seem like a strange thing to do. But according to author Dennis Belkacem Bakers behavior actually usually made sense. The absence of a father figure can have severe repercussions on the adult sons capacity for intimacy. He writes quote for many abandoned. I didn't sons. The realization of intimacy is a mystery that eludes them once committed or married abandoned sons. Can unwittingly replicate the rules. Enacted headed by their fathers by being emotionally or physically absent and quote. This hasn't been a problem for Baker before because he only lived with his wife and daughter a few short months before the war but once he came back he had to commit to a long term intimate relationship and being abandoned my zone. Dad had left him. Ill equipped up to do so. It's important to note how Baker responded to these problems in his relationship. He could have gone to counseling or reached out to his mother for advice instead. Had He ran away. This hints at a tendency toward escapism. A tendency Baker displayed throughout his life. Despite Baker's fighting skills and impressive physique physique at six three Baker stood about half a foot taller than the average man of his era he failed to impress the Tarzan auditions and didn't get the part but but during the audition process he met a beautiful design artist named Elaine who convinced him to stay in Los Angeles. They were married six weeks later. Despite the worlwide and around bakers marriage to Elaine became a relatively stable union by far the longest lasting relationship of Baker's life the couple were drawn drawn to a peaceful spiritual lifestyle in communion with nature. They settled in the Woodsy Chipanga Canyon. Area more Baker supported them by making leather belts since since sandals by hand Baker and Elaine also shared an interest in counter cultural philosophies such as eastern mysticism. And the occult as we mentioned earlier in the episode Los Angeles has historically been home to many soul searchers with similar interests and chief among them in the fifties was renowned philosopher and a cult expert manly p hall. Elaine introduced Baker to hall's writings around Nineteen fifty and Baker was so fascinated aided by his ideas that he began to see hall as another surrogate Father Justice. He had tracked down Paul Bragg. Fifteen years before Baker sought out hall and his library in the Adila L. A. Neighborhood of Los feeless and literally sat at halls feet in a sign of obeisance to his new mentor. What appalls yes? I D as which had a profound effect on Baker was the astrological concept of the age of Aquarius which denotes two thousand one hundred sixty year period. Other enlightenment that will supposedly occur when the Vernal Equinox moves into the Constellation of Aquarius astrologers disagree on exactly when the so-called aquarian age begins but hall believed. It was on the verge of starting in the nineteen fifties and idea which led Baker and many others to think of the the sixties and seventies as an age of enlightenment the second of halls ideas that would one day informed. Baker's teachings was the idea that God has a name and that name contains inherent power. Many cultures have held this belief but for Baker the most intriguing version of it was the Hebrew belief that God's true name Galway written in Hebrew with four letters. You'd hey volve and hey hall believe those letters had divine power and Baker would seek to tap into that power by using various combinations of the letters as his name later in life in nineteen fifty five however Baker was still a long way. Okay from calling himself. By God's name he and Elaine were simply joining in the spirit of mind. Expansion that was beginning to pervade La in the nineteen fifties but these innocent times were not till asked on November. Sixth Nineteen fifty five. When Baker was thirty-three his aggressive nature reared its head again? He got into an argument with one of his two Panga Canyon. Neighbors over the poor treatment of the neighbor's dog the argument grew so heated that according to police reports the neighbor threatened Baker with a knife in response. Baker threw the man into a gully and struck him with a series of judo chops killing him presumably. This was not the first time Jim Bakker had killed a man since he had shot down. Thirteen planes during the war and a jury quickly declared it self-defense. It's nevertheless Baker seems to have been affected by the killing and away he hadn't been during the war. Baker threw himself into healing studies and dedicated himself south to finding a connection between nature food and total wellness. Finally in one thousand nine hundred fifty seven Baker and Elaine foster this connection together when they opened their first restaurant the aware in on Sunset Boulevard. The aware in was the culmination of everything Baker had studied up to this point. Organic Foods Esoteric philosophies and the promise of perfect health it was also the place that would launch Baker on a path of transformation from California Hippie to the leader of the hottest cult in town coming up. We'll see how this transformation began now back to to the story in nineteen fifty seven. Jimmy Lane Baker opened the aware n on sunset boulevard located across the street from Tower Tower records and the infamous Viper Room nightclub. It was considered the first all organic restaurant in the nation. The aware N. became a huge hid among Hollywood's health-conscious elite notable patrons such as Greta Garbo Marlon Brando and Steve McQueen frequented the cafe and before along Jim Baker became a celebrity himself. Elaine designed the restaurant and work behind the scenes. Baker made the recipes cooked and work the floor floor in the afternoons. He took to the last of these tasks brilliantly now in his late thirties with thick wavy hair and striking blue eyes. Baker Baker was both good looking and outgoing and he loved sharing his passion for organic food with others. And that wasn't the only passion he likes. Sharing as the male owner of one of Hollywood's hottest new restaurants Baker attracted the attention of many arising starlet. And despite the fact that he elaine. We're both marriage and business partners. Baker gave into temptation like a kid with two helpings of desert. Not even Baker himself kept track of how many extramarital marital affairs he had from the time the aware in opened in nineteen fifty seven until he and Elaine divorced eight years later but one of the many liaison stands hands out not because of the woman that because of what happened when her husband found out in late nineteen sixty. Two Baker began sleeping with an actress named Gene Ingram. Ingram was separated from her husband at the time but apparently as far as the husband was concerned they were still an exclusive couple. When Ingram's husband has been found out that she was sleeping with Baker he decided to take action on January? Twenty ninth nineteen sixty three. He barged into Baker's office at the aware in with a gun. The details of what happened next star little fuzzy. According to news reports there was a struggle. The gun went off. An Ingram's husband got shot. He also took a couple of judo chops to the back of the head. It's not clear whether the chops or the bullet killed him either away. This was the second time Bakker had ended a fight by killing a man and this time he didn't get off so easily he was charged with manslaughter and jailed for five months until the charges were dismissed in June of nineteen sixty. Three one might think that Baker's popularity would wane while he was on trial for murder but this was Hollywood after all. The charges may baker and even bigger celebrity business at the aware in skyrocketed in one thousand nine hundred sixty five Baker Baker and Elaine capitalized on their success and bought a second restaurant called the old world. Just down the street like its predecessor. The old world was a success S. however bakers marriage to Elaine continued to suffer. The extramarital affairs soon began again. And this time Elaine decided that she'd it had enough in late. Nineteen sixty five. After seventeen years of marriage jiminy lane Baker divorced. Elaine took the aware in and Baker kept the the old world but he didn't keep it long. The recent break-up deeply affected Baker despite the fact that it seems to have been mostly his fault in nineteen sixty six at age forty three. He decided to fly to Samoa to find himself. Bigger later claimed that while he was in Samoa he met a native tribe tribe that was suffering from a diet of processed foods imported from the United States bigger helped place to try organic mostly raw food diet thereby saving the life of the tribal chiefs daughter. This story is virtually impossible to verify. According to Baker the tribal chief gave him the hand of of his newly healed daughter in marriage but after a few months on Samoan beaches Baker grew bored and abandoned his third wife if she ever existed to go back to L. A.. A few months later he met and fell in love with a patron of the old world named Dora. A nineteen year old French girl who epitomised it is the sixty s lifestyle of sex drugs and rock and roll bigger was forty five years old when he endure met and she took his world by I storm for one thing was just as into free love as Baker had been during his marriage to Elaine former source family member Isis aquarian wrote wrote that Baker in Dora had a claw foot bathtub in the center of their apartment. Andorra used to bathe in it while Baker was holding. Business meetings. There with other men door door was also an enthusiastic advocate of mind altering drug use and with her encouragement Baker became addicted to drugs and alcohol. He began stealing from his own cash register at the old world to feed his various addictions in late. Nineteen sixty seven. One of the investors in the old world got wind of the fact that Baker was stealing from the register and hired a private investigator to look into it when Baker found out he was under investigation. He responded by selling the restaurant and running off with Dora to Mexico. This marks the third example. We've seen of Baker's escapist behavior and it won't be the last back in nineteen forty eight Baker responded to difficulties in his first marriage by running off to L. A.. On a motorcycle in nineteen sixty five. He responded to the stress us of his divorce from Elaine by flying to Samoa now in nineteen sixty seven. He was running away from his problems again with little concern for what or whom he was leaving. Behind University of Wisconsin Professor John L.. Lingerie describes escapism as an attempt to quote keep beliefs one does not like out of consciousness and should they enter consciousness to distract one from them or put them out of mind and quote in other words quite literally trying to run from your problems. Clearly Jim Baker was a physically brave man ready to face life threatening dangers head on yet. When confronted with more complex relational problems he went to extreme lengths to avoid them a tendency which would create serious trouble for his followers down the line line? Two things happened while Baker Enduro were in Mexico. That would soon lead to bakers spiritual transformation. I the forty-five-year-old Baker and nineteen year old. Dora got married but decision. which in retrospect may not have been the best choice for the two serial adulterers Baker also appears to have revived his interest in spirituality while he enduro were in Mexico unlike Elaine? Dora had never shown much interest in Baker's mystic side so so his studies and spirituality had lapsed during the past two years however in nineteen sixty eight perhaps inspired by his time abroad Baker returned to in Los Angeles with new energy and a new idea in the spring of nineteen sixty eight Baker met a man on a hiking trail near Los Angeles named Ray Feldman he regaled this perfect stranger with stories about his lifelong spiritual journey stories that probably included concepts he had learned from manly p hall among these concepts was the belief in the Essien Gospel of peace. This obscure text was supposedly written by `seeing monks monks an ascetic sect that lived on the shores of the Dead Sea during the days when Jesus Christ was alive. Legend has it that the text was lost inside the Vatican library three until it was rediscovered and translated from ancient Aramaic. By Hungarian philosopher Edmund Bordeaux Sekai in nineteen twenty-three and what's Sekkei discovered Ebbert upon translating. The text was that contained firsthand quotes from Jesus Disciples proving that Jesus Christ taught vegetarianism in reality. The origins of the Essen Gospel are highly suspect. And it seems unlikely that any of Jesus's contemporaries quoted him on vegetarian beliefs. Nevertheless Bakers retelling of the story was so convincing that Feldman gave Baker. Thirty five thousand dollars over two hundred fifty fifty thousand dollars by today's standards to open a new restaurant with recipes inspired by the Secret Vegetarian teachings of Jesus Christ the a source opened on April first nineteen sixty nine. It could be described as the aware in two point. Zero like Baker's first restaurant the source was located created a high traffic area on the sunset Strip and building on the concept of an all organic menu. It offered all vegetarian. Mostly raw food. diatoms Baker's new age philosophies pervaded the place it was designed with an indoor waterfall candles burning in a fireplace and Zen and music playing on the speakers servers were chosen specifically for their aesthetic appeal young attractive flower children whose flowing hair and bright faces. Aces advertise the holistic vegetarian lifestyle. Bickers track record with the old world didn't bode well for the sources success and the source might have gone on just the same way if not for two key events that took place right after he opened it. The first of these events was that Dora left more of a party girl world than businesswoman. Dora had no interest in running a restaurant and took off on an extended vacation to France right when Baker needed her. The most Baker responded by illegally marrying another woman in her absence a young Sufi named Mila. And if that weren't crazy enough Dora to married someone what else. While she was abroad. One can only imagine the scene. When Dora came back to Los Angeles possibly to tell Baker she had met someone and found him already married to someone else? Baker's new wife was outraged to me Dora so much so that she had her marriage to Baker annulled then doors. New husband found out about Baker Acre and had his marriage with Dora. Dora newly ditched by her French husband officially divorced Baker and for the first time since he was nineteen gene. The forty-seven-year-old Jim Baker found himself alone. Beyond its comedic finale. What's fascinating about this? Incident is how Baker interpreted terported it. Afterwards he had illegally married another woman indoors absence yet. He felt until his dying day that Dora had abandoned him. mm-hmm and according to the source families historian Isis Baker. Never got over it. Maybe that was why he thought himself in such a vulnerable place the night right. He met his third and final. Surrogate Father Yogi Bahujan. This meeting was the second event that came from opening the source restaurant and it would lead to Baker's acres final transformation Yogi Badgen was a Pakistani Sikh who traveled the world in the nineteen sixties teaching the practice of Kunda leany yoga distinguished from other forms of yoga by its emphasis on the central nervous system. COON deline uses meditation chanting and controlled breathing exercises to release spiritual energy thought to originate originate at the base of the spine. Baljit combined the practice of Kundun. Leany Yoga with seek traditions such as vegetarian. Diet avoidance of Drugs and alcohol and to style of dress that included long flowing robes and a white turban starting in the late sixties budget and picked up a few western Western ideologies as well in nineteen sixty nine he came to America on a Green Card procured by one of his students. Rock and roll legend Johnny Rivers at the time rivers was playing with a group called the fifth dimension which had a hit song called Aquarius. Let the sunshine in Yogi barge. Unlike the idea of a dawning aquarian aquarian age and incorporated into his teaching. Thus he developed a unique blend of Yoga Sikhism and Western astrology that resonated did with everything baker had been studying since he was a child. It was a master disciple match made in heaven but within a year bakers experiences and says with John would set him and his followers on a path toward a living. Hell coming up. We'll walk the road to hell now back to the story in May of nineteen sixty nine about a month after opening the source restaurant forty seven year old. Jim Baker attended the party that would change the trajectory of his life forever. What seemed to be a run of the mill Shindig at the home of Vegetarian Cookbook? Author took a turn when when the hostess introduced her. Special Guest world-famous Kunda leany master Yogi. John Baker regarded this so-called master Sir with competitive disdain. Through his years is a popular restaurant. Owner Bakker had become used to being the center of attention but tonight the bearded turban-wearing urban wearing Yogi was getting all the looks and Baker. Didn't like it if this party had taken place a few weeks earlier Baker might have had a wife for to to keep company but now he was alone which seems to have contributed to his decision to make a hasty exit as Baker was leaving the party however he he felt a hand on his arm. The famous Yogi Badgen had reached out to stop him. According to Isis aquarian Baljit looked baker. Deepen the eyes and and said quote son. I'm holding meditation in the morning and I want you to come and quote. Isis claims. The word son had a life altering impact on Baker and based on how he behaved next that seems to be the case. Baker immediately began attending Bodgit's Yoga and meditation classes classes on a daily basis. Although he had studied religion and spirituality for decades Baker had never professed adherence to any one belief system but within months of meeting Badgen he converted to Sikhism began growing out his hair and beard and started dressing in all white robes in solidarity with with his master. We've seen Baker behaved like this with his previous two surrogate fathers immersing himself in their philosophies and adopting their beliefs but with Badgen Baker went even further and he began claiming that Budgen was the father of the coming new age and had cards placed on all the tables at the source. Restaurant brought declaring that Yogi. John was God. This was a fascinating display of devotion by a man who within less than a year would become the leader leader of his own cult and the intensity of his behavior suggests that something deeper was at play bakers devotion to Belgian developed at lightning speed and in the wake of what he considered to be abandonment by his wife. Dora taken together. These two facts may indicate that Baker was experiencing some form form of reactive attachment disorder. According to the American Psychiatric Association reactive attachment disorder is a trauma disorder that develops out the feelings of parental abandonment during early childhood symptoms include impulsively lacking a sense of belonging and an inability to develop and maintain tain significant relationships. Because it can only be diagnosed between nine months and five years of age a time. Baker's life when his mother is certainly didn't have the means to take him to a psychiatrist. We don't know whether Baker actually had reactive attachment disorder. But it would help explain. His almost obsessive need for connection Yogi. Jogi badgen responded to Baker's overzealousness by attempting to set boundaries. I he sent men to the source to remove all the cards Baker at place. They're proclaiming that budget was God. This turned out to be ineffective as Baker replaced the cards the next day so Bahujan up the stakes. Banning Baker Acre from his Ashram Baker responded by breaking in overnight then waiting for budget to arrive for meditation the next morning. This situation might quickly glee of spiraled out of control if it weren't for the fact that Baker's need for attachment soon found relief in a young woman named Robin Popper. Baker met Robin in the summer of sixty nine about three months after Dora divorced him. Baker was forty seven years old. Robin was nineteen eighteen and enjoyed hanging out at the source wearing nothing but a white bikini like Dora. Robin was a wild child a hard partying. Hollywood nymphet unfit who enjoyed drugs and rock and roll unlike her predecessor. However Robin was not attracted to Baker? He asked her out over and over and Robin repeatedly turned him down saying he was too old. As with Yogi Bahujan Baker showed little respect for Robbins boundaries and lacked awareness of how to build an appropriate opiate relationship. He began following Robin and his car down Sunset Boulevard calling to her out the window and begging her to go out with them some might. I never reported Baker to the police for stocking but the nineteen year old robin decided to handle things differently. Decision which would drastically alter the course of her life on August eighth nineteen. sixty-nine Brabin was strolling down sunset on her way to meet up with a friend. Bigger began following her down the street street in his car. Saying if she didn't go out with them he would never leave her alone. Robin made Baker a deal. She would go out with him that night if he would promised Thomas not to ask her again. Bigger agreed and robin went out with him instead of going to see her friend in a bizarre twist of fate that friend rand turned out to be the pregnant actress. Sharon tate later that night August eighth nineteen sixty-nine followers of the infamous cult leader. Charles Charles Manson broke into Sharon. Tate's house murdering tate. And everyone else inside. When Robin saw the news the next morning she was terrified Loyd if not for Baker she would have been murdered to Robbins? Fear and shock sent her running back to the man she had tried to reject less within twenty four hours before and although we don't know exactly what took place between them we do know that both of them were transformed as a result. Robin became came Bakers Lover and his first dedicated follower. She was convinced that by preventing her from going to Sharon. Tate's house that night Baker had shown evidence that he possessed miraculous powers and she believed he should share those powers with the world. Robin and Baker were married in May of nineteen seventy and that same month. She convinced him to begin teaching Sunday. Meditation classes at the source. This was not only the beginning of Baker's teaching career it was also so the very beginning of the source family. Bigger students attended his classes on Sunday mornings and either worked or hung out at the restaurant all during the week. Well it may not have been Baker's intention. This gave him a tremendous amount of power over their lives. According to psychologist Robert Jay Lifton colts begin with thought. Reform and the most basic feature of thought reform is control of an individual's environment as the owner of the source restaurant. Baker had literally created the environment in which many of his employees already spent six days a week by adding meditation classes on the Seventh Day. They're only day off off. Baker was virtually ensuring that his philosophies became the dominant psychological force in his workers minds. Initially the Sunday. Meditation classes were repetitions of classes. Baker had taken from Yogi by John. Baker continued to refer to budge on as the earthly spiritual father and taught his mentor style of meditation and Cuneo however it soon became clear to Baker that his students saw him as more than a middleman. They began to dress like Baker in flowing white clothes and headdresses. Some of them started addressing Baker as father. Almost independent of Baker's wishes a cult was forming coming around him and as he realized this Baker's relationship with Yogi Badgen began to change bigger became less subservient to budget in more critical article of his teachings although he still attended the Yoga classes he didn't feel the desperate need for Bob John's wisdom that he had only a few months before then one day in the early fall of nineteen seventy baker experienced a revelation. He was teaching a Sunday Meditation Class leading his students in a chance that he had learned from Yogi Badgen when thought entered his head a thought unrelated to the exercise. In many forms of meditation. Practitioners aim to clear clear. Their minds of individual thoughts ideas are perceived as intrusive and disruptive to the enlightenment process so for Baker who had disciplined himself to perform exactly according to his master's instructions. This thought was unwelcome at first but then Baker began to wonder what would happen if instead of casting his thought away. He embraced it. He decided to find out acting on impulse. Baker called for his students to stand up in the position of the five pointed star. They obeyed him. He then called for the students to do a breathing. Exercise for one hundred eight counts. They did data to for the first time. Jim Baker realized that a student's weren't just here to learn the teachings of Yogi Badgen. They were here because of him. Baker could tell these young impressionable people to do whatever came into his mind and they would obey him unquestioningly. This was the beginning of Baker's cours transformation from yogi disciple into controlling cult leader but it was only the beginning. Baker Psyche was still in a stage of flux and and it would take one more revelation for him to settle into his new identity by the fall of nineteen. Seventy change was once again on Baker Horizon. Although business was booming at the source the restaurant had been poorly managed both by Baker and by the managerial staff he had chosen has as a result only a year and a half after opening the source. Restaurant was nearly bankrupt. Baker true to form responded to this difficult problem by running away. In December of nineteen seventy. He decided to leave his wife Robyn and the restaurant and travelled to India to visit Yogi Bahujan. This this was odd given that he and Boston had been drifting apart but it was in keeping with his usual escapist behavior bigger left town proclaiming that the source would no no longer be there when he got back and things certainly did change while he was away but not as he predicted. The first change was in Baker himself while in India he decided once and for all that he didn't need a spiritual father he was a spiritual father. Baker described the transformation nation like a scene from sacred literature. According to him he was on a boat. In India dressed in the white robe and headdress. He had adopted upon converting to seek his my year so before. A man on the boat asked Baker if he was seek or Hindu Baker responded by throwing his headdress into the river and proclaiming that he he was neither Hindu nor seek his soul was free. According to Baker the Indian passes fell at his feet and began calling him a a holy man. While this story was almost certainly exaggerated if not pure fiction it. Nevertheless gives us a clear sense of Baker State of mind upon his return return from India as we've already seen bakers views on his role in the world change frequently throughout his life the anecdote about throwing his headdress into the river are shows that he was once again transforming into someone new yet. This time was different than all the others. Baker was changing from a man seeking answers to the man who had them all and I'm Nisshin Guru with a direct link to God psychoanalyst. Anthony Store describes such a person. Listen as quote a spiritual teacher who's insight is based on personal revelation often taking the form of a vision understood to come directly from a deity e-e-eddie the revelation which has transformed his life generally follows upon a period of distress or illness in his thirties or forties. There is suddenly a sense of certainty of having found the truth creating a general aura around him that he knows and quote whether a group of Indians really really fell at his feet or not Baker returned from India with that very sense of certainty he was no longer bound by any particular belief. He was the source. Yes of belief the very spiritual father he had sought for decades and what was more Bakker had a stable of intensely devoted followers waiting for him when he got back while Baker was away. Robin had stepped up to work with the manager of the restaurant and with the cooperation of the staff. They'd pulled the source out of debt. Not only was the restaurant making money again. But the act of saving it had brought Robin and the staff even closer together than they'd been before Robin and the workers at Jim Bakker's restaurant now referred to themselves as the source family and the role of father was waiting. Baker cursing. His opportunity at last broke ties with John for good he also took a new name combining what some of his followers had already been calling him father with the first letter of the Hebrew name for God from this point forward Jim Baker would be father. Yoed the man and chosen by God to father a new enlightened human race next week. We'll follow Father Yo. Does he builds his tight-knit cult tucked away. In the Hollywood they would hills. Thanks again for tuning into colts. We'll be back with part two of the source family next Tuesday. You can find more episodes of cults as well as all of our casts other podcasts. On Apple PODCASTS. spotify stitcher Google play or your favorite podcast directory. Several all of you vast how to help us if you enjoy this show. The best way to help us is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you. Next time cult was created by Max Cutler and is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast asked network it is produced by Max Ron Cutler sound design by Dick Schroeder with production assistance by Ron Shapiro additional production assistance by Maggie aggie admire and Carly Madden. Cults is written by Meghan Dane and stars. Greg Poulsen Vanessa Richardson.

James Edward Baker Jim Baker Baker Baker Jim Baker Baker Acre Baker Psyche Baker Horizon Jimmy Lane Baker Yogi Bahujan Baker hand Baker Badgen Baker James Edward Baker Jim Bakker Los Angeles California Greg Poulsen Vanessa Richardso Elaine foster Bob John Dora Bakers Robin Popper Yogi Badgen
7: Dangerous Teens

American Hysteria

37:53 min | 11 months ago

7: Dangerous Teens

"On this season and we'll be exploring are bizarre beliefs unfounded fears and fantastical thinking how they shape our psychology and culture and how much of our past we can find in the president. I'm your host Chelsea. Lovers Smith and this is American hysteria. The two killers belong to a group of students that named itself. The trenchcoat mafia expert. I call them super. Predators kids at once stole have gaps now rape and murder by the year two thousand and five. We may very well have a bloodbath of teenage violence violence. I thought that this episode like all of them really was going to be pretty straightforward something. I know you've heard me say before I thought I'd explore the fears of various various counterculture that lit up headlines over the years the grease irs and the hippies the punks and the metal heads and finally bring it all around to our newest biggest teenage the villains. I thought I'd do a simple debunking of school shooting myths around Violent Video Games mental illness in bullying and then make a call for the better gun control that I've long hoped for but the more I read the more I found that there was a side to all of this that wasn't being discussed one that was having a much more devastating impact on our youth than the mass shootings. We've come to know so intimately through the media. I decided enough. People were tackling all the myriad of myths. I just mentioned so so I wanted to do something different. Even though this is an emotionally charged topic I need you to follow me down a different path to a different part of this conversation station one. We're not having enough running alongside the panic's in the eighties and nineties about murderous teenage metal heads that we covered in our season season one series on satanic panic were other kinds of panics to emerging out of Reagan's Wars on Drugs and crime as the central park five stood trial trial for the rape and beating of a white jogger Reagan's fictitious crack babies were growing toward their own tinam painted as wilding superpredators creditors committing random and senseless violence in groups of thirty or more forming a tidal wave of violent criminals predicted to eventually be in in the hundreds of thousands at the very end of the satanic panic the I highly publicized school shooting ushered in a new archetype of the dangerous teen the trench coated Goths sitting angry and dejected on the outskirts of each school lunch room hypnotized by the Gore video games the fog of mental illness the revenge. Njit bullied sole or even the guns that they were too easily able to access just to get this out of the way early despite how these last few view years have made it seem despite how these last few years have felt schools are still statistically the safest place our kids and teenagers can be by far and our youth are still far more likely to be struck by lightning twice than to be killed by a school shooter. It doesn't make these extremely rare tragedies any less tragic or any less worth of conversation on how to stop them from happening but more and more our public schools are referred a two as actual war zones by Democrats and Republicans alike. The news is saturated with these images of police. Storming schools of bleary eyed kids with strange manifestos of parents crying and stunned dizzy with grief not even able to process what happened before cameras put in their face. Yes we use these moments as metaphors as symbols for our political aims which isn't always a bad thing that is when results that come from it are helpful rather than even more harmful than that which we seek to address in the case of our collective reaction to school mass shootings. Unfortunately the latter is true. No matter who we are no matter how well meaning when we are burning in our collective rage in our collective fear we sometimes sometimes miss important things and sometimes important people can use these moments to pass laws that we don't even notice. It's vital that we take a look. The results of our emotionally driven social movements are they what we hoped for when we fear the extremely rare mass violence of suburban American American teenagers who are the invisible victims of our collective outrage. There's a tidal wave of juvenile violent crime right over the horizon. Roger and some new study it say the worst is yet to come since the emergence of the concept of the teenager in the nineteen twenties something we talked about out more extensively in our episode on teenage sex. The media has been obsessed with the immorality and danger that these popular subcultures apparently produce these so called youth quake's really began when young women cut their hair short and started wearing short dresses when newspapers and politicians were aghast at White Teens in jazz ask clubs mingling in new urban centres smoking marijuana with young black musicians getting more than a little too close their parents believed eventually eventually came the hippies the first serious antiwar generation that terrified parents who came of age and the conformity obsessed nineteen fifties with all their drug drug use and sex with their general deviance with their peaceful rebellion against ingrained norms of racial separations sobriety and Christian purity this group that was actively working against the war violence and racism that much of their parents generation embraced were turned into blood hungry beasts when the story of Charles Charles Manson and his apparent Colt teenage hippies exploded in the news and slowly the evil hippie became an archetype as a direct response of the growing fundamentalist fundamentalist movement that was coming to power as a reaction to the permissive nineteen seventies with the movements in favor of women's rights abortion black rights and gay rights as well as the aftershock aftershock of the Manson murders the growing cultural interest in Anton McVeigh's tongue-in-cheek Church of Satan the Christian right began demonizing teenagers who dare air to veer from their fundamentalist doctrines narratives ramped up hot in the nineteen eighties about teenage satanism that led to senseless murder in the name of their anti-god awed running concurrent to these panics about teenage satanic murderers were panics about gangs of roving black teenagers who attacked innocent white people so just for fun both of these categories contained teenage deviance either deviant for being anti-christian or deviant for being black but as we'll see there are a huge differences in how these panics affected the communities that were said to be dangerous capping off the nineties fear of Satanism was one of the most seminal events that would lead to a new narrative of the dangerous teenager one. That's still fills. Our News feeds today. Let's start with this event that most of us probably remember one one that would go on to change everything we believe about the potential for teenage violence about the safety of suburbia sparkling outside the inner city a Mecca for the the innocence of children destroyed for good by two vicious young men amid the gunshots and bomb blast hundreds of students ran for their lives James Stockton their own school by two of their own classmates who went on a rampage witnesses say they laughed as they fired their weapons executing their classmates who begged for their lives. It's the spring of nineteen ninety nine. Eric Harris and Dylan klebold walked casually onto the campus of columbine in high school in a quiet Denver suburb carrying large duffle bags. The bags contain homemade bombs at the boys had built to blow up the cafeteria area to kill hundreds of students. They also leave two bombs inside their cars in the parking lot planning to detonate them to kill anyone fleeing from the school as well as first responders ponders none of these bombs successfully detonate so they revert to plan B polling to nine millimeter pistols and two twelve gauge shotguns from their bags dressed in long black trench coats they walk the halls of Columbine cornering a group of their peers and the stacks of the library shooting and killing twelve students and one teacher before committing suicide themselves in the two-decade-long vein of satanic ritual sensationalism the Denver post host immediately and hastily reported quote by several accounts the Group was interested in the occult mutilation and shock rocker Marilyn Manson and Adolf Hitler lower the weird part is that none of this is true except for the part about Hitler The Washington Post however had this to say the shooter's who turn Columbine Bovine High School into an unspeakable landscape of carnage yesterday where members of a small clique of outcasts who wore black trench coats and spent their entire adolescence lessons deep inside the morose subculture of gothic fantasy their fellow students said suddenly the archetype of the teen satanist transition into a more mild and less obvious threat the goth like the metal heads of the nineteen eighties. The Goth Clicks of the nineteen nineties like to portray a darken darken often witchy satanic vibe embracing the fashion of a cartoonish kind of underworld but these nightmare before Christmas obsessed sad kids. We're not dangerous and the columbine shooters actually had nothing to do with the group that came to be known as the trenchcoat Mafia. They were just a group of innocent soccer's that didn't really know the killers at all but because Harris and clean bowled happened to dawn those black trench coats goths for a time became the number one fear in America I and Marilyn Manson became of course their hypnotic satanic leader in reality Harris and clean bowled were pretty much straight up white supremacists who who revered the Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh and according to their journals his attack was the inspiration for columbine originally planned for the same date April April nineteenth instead of April twentieth when they found a large group of boys hiding under a lunch table they pulled out Isaiah shoals calling him the the very worst of anti-black slurs and then shooting under the table with cleanable reportedly saying and I'm sorry this feels important quote. I didn't know black brains could fly that far. This narrative was barely touched on by the media and never explored in a mainstream context. However the Goths story has stuck even now so has the story of their outcasted social position even though they were not chronically bullied anymore than other students and and we're actually relatively popular in fact they were often referred to as bullies themselves by students who were interviewed and yet despite our characterization of these white white boys is evil they too were cast as victims of corrupting influences not wholly responsible for their own actions but rather the product of of their ever darkening surroundings of the moral failings of a new America other teams however were not afforded the same privilege more after this you might of heard me talk about this sponsor before they're called native deodorant a natural Deodorant Company company that means you don't have to sacrifice on odor or witness protection in order to know everything? That's in your deodorant. 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During checkout and now back to the show <music> forty meal inside factual tackling the inherent on April Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-nine exactly ten ten years before the Columbine massacre a twenty eight year old jogger named Tricia Meili was brutally assaulted and raped in New York's Central Park. The assault was so sudden and violent the TRICIA could not remember her attacker or attackers soon. The police and the news began reporting that a group of thirty black and Latino boys between the ages of fourteen and sixteen were participating in something called wilding with the New York Post calling them quote packs of bloodthirsty teens from the tenements bursting with boredom and rage roaming. The streets getting kicks from an evening of ultra violence. They were also called savage. They were called the wolf pack. They were called animals and Farrell there were indeed teenagers committing crimes in the park that night including and throwing rocks at cars and even beating up a homeless man but as DNA would later confirm they did not sexually assault Tricia that night at that time New New York businessman Donald Trump claimed that his city was being quote ruled by the law of the streets as roving bands of wild criminals Rome our neighborhoods hoods dispensing their own vicious brand of twisted hatred on whomever they encounter trump took out a full page ad in four New York City Eddie newspapers with the headline in all caps saying bring back the death penalty. Bring back our police. The boys confessed to the murder after hours of interrogation without apparent or lawyer present for somewhere between fourteen and thirty hours they later told the media that they were bullied into confessing but nonetheless nonetheless they were convicted and sentenced to five to fifteen years either in a juvenile detention center or in prison depending on their age despite the fact that the DNA founded rounded the scene matched none of those convicted it wasn't until two thousand one that the central park five would finally be exonerated when a serial rapist. I came forward in prison to confess to the crime his. DNA matched Tom. Brokaw describe the pastime of wilding as quote rampaging rampaging in Wolf Packs and attacking people just for the fun of it New York Post columnist Pete Hamill stated quote. They were coming down town from a world of crack crack welfare guns knives indifference in ignorance and driven by a collective fury brimming with the rippling energies of youth. They only had one goal all to smash hurt rob. Stop Rape. Unsurprisingly wilding was not a trend as the media police and politicians claimed claimed that night in Central Park was a single story that was then used to characterize black youth as a faceless violent mob columnists. Pat Buchanan wrote quote quote if the eldest of that wolf pack tried convicted and hanged in central park by June first and the thirteen and fourteen year olds were stripped horsewhipped and sent to prison and that park might soon be safe again for women. This statement is so steeped in antebellum racism as to be almost cartoonish in its offense despite despite the eventual exonerations of Anton mccray Kevin Richardson Yussef Salon Raymond Santana Corey wise the damage had already been done the narrative of black and brown teen riots hunting white women and anyone else in their terrible path continued to brim in the news after the story had had sunk into America's consciousness the early nineties brought reports about something called the knockout game the urban legend of wilding had morphed into a new new story a black game punching people in the back of the head for fun especially old white women and then running away the concept was popularized by a man named Paul Lane who was attacked and what was later proven to be a robbery not as he claimed a racist attack on innocent white man Dan Lane wrote of the incident quote. I'm a liberal Obama supporter but that didn't stop the violence on me. I have serious concussion issues and my trust for Young Young African American. Men in particular is now less than zero. He continued to say the black assaults on non-blacks isn't racist is a blatant lie. Black predators are racist to the bone. Most all live the part in prison. I assume that Mr Lehne would not have made these sweeping statements admits about young white men. The knockout game was everywhere the today show for instance reported in two thousand thirteen that quote teenagers are knocking people out for the fun of it targeting women and children with cases piling up but none of the incidents cited by the news. We're actually part of a game. They were often robberies or personal attacks run of the mill crimes taken out of context with videos clipped to support the desired frightening narrative much much of the apparent footage was stock videos of crimes that appear to be random violence but weren't a sociologist named. Mike King searched extensively to find one legitimate case of the game but was unable to find a single instance and yet these same stories have lasted up to the present decade. We talked about the now debunked concept of crack babies and our season one episode called drugs black children born to people who used crack cocaine in in the nineteen eighties and the fears they would grow into wildly violent adolescence in the nineteen nineties. These imaginary crack babies were slowly growing rolling toward their teenage years and the term Super Predator rose to common use when First Lady Hillary Clinton spoke at a rally in nineteen ninety six to the very very white state of New Hampshire. We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called superpredators no conscience no empathy we can talk about why they ended up that way but first we have to bring them to heel and the president has asked the the FBI to launch a very concerted effort against gangs everywhere in case. It's not clear Clinton means he'll the way you would command a dog to subservience servants not heal as into make healthy again. This term Super Predator was created when conservative political scientists John Delillo Lillo cobble together a theory of black teenage violence to come predicting that by two thousand ten there would be a huge increase in superpredators two hundred seventy seventy thousand of them in fact he called them quote radically impulsive brutally remorseless elementary school youngsters who pack guns instead of lunches. Che's and quote have absolutely no respect for human life to Delillo. There was no cure for this monstrous personality except of course excluding them from schools and incarcerating them for as long as possible. That's what he said that was his plan at the same time the Clinton administration Shen signed off on the three strikes law they would contribute to mass incarceration at the fastest rate the nation had ever seen and states all over passed laws to try teenagers teenagers as young as thirteen or fourteen as adults even though youth crime was at historically low levels his violent crime control and law enforcement act also drastically increased federal funding for school police known as school resource officers or SRO's in addition the zero tolerance policy which I started as the Gun Free Schools Act would soon apply extremely harsh penalties for offenses like the possession of drugs alcohol or tobacco fighting dress code violations truancy tardiness and disrupting class very broad infractions that could be interpreted at the will of teachers and SRO's rose along with the new funding came more surveillance equipment like metal detectors and cameras the zero tolerance laws allowed for a kind of free for all in what's considered teenage criminal behavior with faculty and Sro's suspending arresting kids as young as five things like using a cell phone in class or talking back to a teacher unsurprisingly two thousand eleven study found that the presence of SRO's increased arrests in public schools especially for minor offenses that in the past would have have been handled by those in the administration inside the walls of public schools there became a different kind of justice system where the legal rights of students were severely limited limited with SRO's allowed at any time to search students and their property without a warrant and even without reasonable probable cause even with the ability to issue random them drug tests but never fear Salford United School district number. One v Reading did place some restrictions on schools by determining that strip searches says were too intrusive for students. There's always been a relationship between race and school resource officers. They were first placed in schools goals. During integration during the Jim Crow era of the nineteen sixties in nineteen sixty seven the Orangeburg massacre saw police fire on students. It's at a North Carolina campus who are protesting the segregation of a local bowling alley. Three black teenagers were killed and more than thirty were injured that same year thirty five hundred Philadelphia public high school students walked out of class to March to the board of Education building to make demands such as more black teachers features and black history courses one hundred riot gear clad police officers beat hundreds of students and twenty two people were seriously injured with fifty fifty. Seven students arrested instead of these incidents shining a light on policing and racism laws were passed to ramp up the control over these dangerous teens means legislation was proposed to prohibit obnoxious behavior in public schools in order to quote keep outside agitators off campus. The bill's sponsor answer said you would think that since the nineteen nineties as our attention has shifted to the deranged violence of the white social outcast we would see arise in the arrests of white male youth and yet this is not the case instead the rate at which black students entering the criminal justice system system has actually risen in two thousand one black kids were four point one times more likely to enter the criminal justice system than white kids but by two thousand fifteen fifteen they were five times more likely despite the fact that data has consistently shown that black and white youth commit crimes at the same rate in urban urban areas fifty seven percent of schools employ at least one. SRO compared to forty five percent in suburban districts in two thousand fifteen the Department of the justice found that forty four percent of incarcerated youth were black despite the fact that they only make up fourteen percent of the population and it's not only kids kids of color that are disproportionately affected a two thousand eleven study done by the ACLU found that students with disabilities are four times more likely to be suspended than in those without disabilities in one example from Twenty fifteen an eleven year old boy with autism spectrum disorder Virginia kicked a trash can and was subsequently quaintly slammed to the ground by an SRO handcuffed and charged with felony assault on a police officer students who fall under the LGBT category also face higher levels of suspension and arrest another recent incident that gained media attention that you might remember happen in South Carolina when an SRO it's spring bringing valley highschool slammed a black girl over her desk by the throat and then dragged her across the floor because she would not stand up to be arrested for using her cell phone in class. Despite the fact that there was video evidence both the injured student and the girl who filmed the attack were charged with crimes while the school resource officer was not we all do more to recognize and look for the early warning signals that deeply deeply troubled young people send often before they explode into violence. Shirley more of them can be saved and more innocent victims and tragedies can be avoided the chance of a K. through twelve student in the US being killed by a school shooter is roughly one one in six hundred and fourteen million. That's a chance of zero point zero zero zero zero zero. One percent teenagers are far far are more likely to die in car accidents far more likely even to die in plane crashes to die by beasts things to die in a fireworks accident to die by lightning. Ning despite how it feels and I understand why it feels that way our kids are not in imminent and constant danger when they are at school in fact act it is statistically the very safest place a teenager can be much much safer than even their own homes and yet these car crashes and and boosting do not usually come with a face nor do they come with a story today on both the left and right we desperately seek to explain the actions. Sion's of white school shooters prodding for exactly what made him do it what part of the violence to him he was a victim to we say a victim of bullying a victim of mental illness of the cruel assault of video games handed down by heartless entertainment corporations even a victim of the ease at which Americans can get guns. We want to address whatever it is that made him do it. Whatever hypnotic force that took I his own innocence away but this same courtesy the search for an explanation was not extended to black youth when Hillary Hillary Clinton said we can talk about why they ended up that way but first we have to bring them to heel or as trump wants said bring back the death penalty bring back our police. We ask what did Trayvon Martin do from inside his hood that led to his own death. We argue to this day about what teenager Michael Brown did someone who was painted almost like our modern Super Predator what actions did he take and wasn't enough to justify what happened next unlike the satanic metal heads before for them as well as the Gothic Columbine shooters. The behaviors of these nineties ehre wilding black teens were not widely blamed on the new genre of violent hip hop neither to pock nor the NWEA became their hypnotic Maryland Manson's when I think of the rumors of superpredators of wilding in the knockout game. The Nation didn't seem at all interested in figuring out what made these kids violent mental illness was never brought up bullying was never brought up as as well as their access to weapons they just weren't discussed and neither was the very real issue of the increasing poverty rate created by the Reagan administration's Economic Policies Sees and his racist war on drugs the only thing that was blamed for these sociopathic superpredators. If anything were there crack addicted single single parents and they're absent fathers this was common and expected violence. This was an inherent condition the nature of the inner city itself and the nature of those who grew up inside of it with all this continued sacrifice in the name of school safety. You would hope that there would be positive results there aren't though studies do disagree on whether the presence of SRO's actually leads to a decrease in crime the majority Jordy have found that it doesn't though it is difficult to establish whether these results are causal or not but on the topic of school shootings of sixty sixty eight schools that experience them almost none of them were helped by the presence of their SRO's and four out of the five most devastating school shootings in American history all had an SRO present but none of them were able to stop the shooter in the case of Columbine most all of what we have left in our collective memories is the narrative that America wanted to keep and it's completely incorrect. They weren't social outcasts. They weren't aren't Goth's or their satanic predecessors. They weren't exceptionally bullied and they weren't obsessed with Marilyn Manson. They weren't victims of these corrupting forces. They weren't victims of the violence of the doom video game but they were bald-faced racists who wanted to follow in the footsteps of their hero. Timothy McVeigh A story story. We've never really heard and I'm not saying that. Columbine was wholly inspired by some kind of racist agenda but there's evidence that at least part of it was influenced influenced by that type of thinking. I don't know what made the Columbine shooters. I don't know what makes anyone school shooter and I think none of us really do but I can't help but notice the way we continuously sanitize parts of the history of Columbine for example how these boys were able to utter a sentence it's about black brains without ever being talked about in the press and yet to this day we believe they were part of the trenchcoat mafia but none of the trench coat mafia were arrested for their taste in clothing of which the same cannot be said for the black teenagers actually arrested for wearing their hair naturally for sagging egging their pants for talking back with all our talk of war zones in constant danger. It's not those who look like Eric Harris and Dylan in Cleveland. Those who look like Nicholas crews those who look like Adam Lanza that suffer I too want comprehensive gun control. It's the fastest asked us way to address the issue of school shootings but when we don't keep in mind how rare these school shootings actually are in the midst of our collective outrage <unk> over any number of causes any number of reasons we forget about the invisible victims that are made studies have consistently shown that suspending and incarcerating youth affects every aspect of their future from whether they will graduate to whether they'll be able to attend college find a job and even find stable stable housing even single arrest can double the chances that a student will drop out of high school and if they appear in court that number quadruples this is known to sociologists activists as the school to prison pipeline and the fear and subsequent criminalization of our teenagers damages the prosperity austerity of our future generation especially those who already been disenfranchised enough and not only that but if we must talk about government spending in this issue issue detaining just one youth offender comes at an average of almost one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year as research around school violence continues to approve. It isn't policing keeps teenagers in line. It's actually a strong sense of a caring community. The increasing of security measures have not made students safer in fact a New York chief judge named Judith Kaye and her assigned task force actually found that students reported feeling safer in districts tricks that approached disciplined with counseling and mentor ship and without a police presence however there parents felt a stronger sense of safety in districts where police this officer was stationed in each school but more and more programs such as social and emotional learning and positive behavioral interventions and supports are attempting to to engender trust and care within school communities between Authority figures and the children and teenagers they serve it seems that both sides of this debate it whatever they blamed for the actions of school shooters believed that we need to stop these events before they happen and of course we do but doing so with school we'll resource officers simply doesn't work and it's a waste of precious resources that could be used in more comprehensive counseling and mentorship programs on professionals channels that can better understand early problematic behavior and address it in a healthy way tactics that have not only been shown to perform better statistically but also helps school communities feel safer as a whole without criminalising those who disrupt whatever officials decide in the moment that means in the most recent Election Election Cycle Hillary Clinton apologized and expressed regret for popularizing the idea of the Super Predator but her words still resonate with me in in a way that she didn't mean them to she said we must bring them to heel the way we would disobedient dog but all that separates rates that sentence from a True Path toward the safety and success of our teenagers both those deemed as dangerous and those deemed as not is a single letter a sentiment. I hope we can all no matter where we fall in the debate agree with we have to focus on the needs of our teenagers teenagers on the needs of all our teenagers. It's time to stop criminalizing our kids and instead I think we must I bring them to heal from skylark. This was American hysteria next time on the show for our aftershock doc episode coming next week I will cover violent video games as promised and after that we're covering a really interesting topic called pornography. I I know all you deviant south. There are interested in that American hysteria is written produced and hosted by me Chelsea. Wherever Smith assistant produced by Hi Derek Smith produced and edited by clear Comma Studios with research assisted by Riley Smith and recorded on location at Dunsmore studios in Seattle and a special thanks this week to Miranda Zickler for all of her help on this episode and for trying to keep me grounded as I pace around my bedroom actually almost pulling out my hair. I hope you all have a great week and make sure you follow us on social media. Leave us a review. You know the drill. I really appreciate you guys trusting me with topics like this and thanks says always for reaching out and always feel free to send me a miss. I'm doing my best out here but I know I'm as perfect as everyone else. I hope you all have a great week and just like always. There's a lot going on there so please take care hearts aw. Bruce all recognize us all worked with kids that are called super super super and look for the warning signals kind of kids that appalled super predatory stories. We can talk about why they ended up that way but I think we have to bring them to. He'll bring them to heel. We have to bring them deal. You can talk talk about why they ended up that way but I surely more of them can be saved conscience. No answer no empathy. We need to take people certainly no empathy. You can talk about why they ended up that way but I have to bring them to heel. No conscience no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way but first we have to bring them to heel all <music>.

Hillary Hillary Clinton SRO Maryland Manson America Central Park murder wilding New York DNA president Rape Columbine Timothy McVeigh Eric Harris New York Post assault officer Lovers Smith Donald Trump John Delillo
The Manson Girls Pt. 2 - The Women of the Manson Family

Female Criminals

46:45 min | 1 year ago

The Manson Girls Pt. 2 - The Women of the Manson Family

"Due to the graphic nature of these women's crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder violence and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. Linda CA Sabin walked down the hall to a door she had seen only once before in her hand. The wooden handle of a knife grew hot and slippery as her poems began Dan to sweat last week she had met a new friend and actor who had moved to Hollywood to make it big she had liked the man she'd happily gone back back to his apartment thrilled how well the two of them got along. She had wanted to return and now here she was although the circumstances had had changed. Charlie wanted her to get her hands dirty. All of his followers had to be a part of helter skelter together. She gripped the knife tighter heider and wrapped on the door. She heard footsteps approaching on the other side. She looked down the hallway to her family. Members Susan Atkins pins and Clem Grogan. They stared back eager. Charlie had ordered a bloodbath and Charlie Manson always always got what he wanted picture a murderer a- gangster a thief. Did you picture a woman. We didn't think so- society associates men with dangerous crimes but what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday we examined the psychology motivations and atrocities of female female criminals hi I'm Sammy nine and I'm Vanessa Richardson and you're listening to female criminals apar- cast original this week near the fifty fifty year anniversary of the infamous Manson family murders on August ninth and Tenth Nineteen Sixty nine. We finish our coverage of the women who N._F._l.. into the Manson family and carried out murders in their leader's name this episode is part of podcasts summer of sixty nine event July twenty twenty-second through August ninth. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer summer of Nineteen sixty-nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing were diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Colt and rumours of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts podcasts at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and instagram at podcast podcast and twitter at par cast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help last week we met the women who became infamous for their air part in the Manson family murders some of the most gruesome cold blooded acts of violence in American history. Those women were twenty one year enrolled Susan Atkins Nineteen Year Old Leslie Van Houten Twenty One year old Patricia Krenwinkel Twenty Year Old Linda Kosabe Ian Twenty six year old Catherine Catherine Gypsy share and twenty year old Lynette squeaky fromm e we detailed they're sorted childhoods which left these women feeling neglected unloved and susceptible to the charms of sociopath Charles Manson by July of Nineteen sixty-nine. All five of these women were deep deep within Manson's fold and considered some of his most ardent followers Leslie van Houten has since described the impassioned sermons Charles Manson gave his family to prepare them for an oncoming race war called helter skelter. He represented himself as more divine than human calling himself off the son of man he believed he was both Jesus and the devil in one person and his followers accepted it wholeheartedly. The Manson family spent the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine preparing for the race war that Charlie believed would burn Los Angeles to the ground but when it failed to to arrive he decided it was time to spark the war himself. This week will follow the chilling murders that made the Manson family notorious area once Manson realized his followers would kill for him. He made a plan to put helter skelter into motion by by the time Gary Hinman was murdered in late July of nineteen sixty nine Charles Manson or Charlie as he was known around Spahn ranch had already he plunged the families free love rhetoric in too much darker waters and largely because his followers were on a steady diet of pot l._S._d.. Masculine Mescaline and a myriad of other drugs that have since fallen out of fashion they were overly susceptible to his ranting Vanessa's Gwen to take over on the psychology here and and throughout the episode just a reminder Vanessa is neither a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy as reported by Shanna Anna Freeman and Nathan Chandler with how stuff works trace amounts of l._S._D.. Stay in a person's system for weeks after a trip and while a person will begin begin to hallucinate on just point two five micrograms of L._S._D.. The average user in the nineteen sixties took four times that amount and considering sitting the fact that the Manson family was partying on a nightly basis be l._S._D.. Had No chance of ever fully leaving their system L._S._D.. Trips can last twelve twelve hours which means they spent almost every waking moment hi Katrin Prowler a researcher on a recent study conducted at the University Hospital for for Psychiatry in Zurich explained that typically our brains constantly filter out information that it does not think we need. She says the world world around us is not the world we perceive because the Palamos filters out what it considers to be irrelevant information. We don't necessarily perceive all there is because that would be an overload of information but prowlers team hypothesized that L._S._d.. Caused the columnist to stop filtering out that the extra information l._S._D.. Causes Parts of the brain that typically have nothing to do with vision to begin contributing to what a user sees. This is what causes uses the Hallucinations L._S._D.. Users report all of this extra information provides for a very trippy experience one that filters away any sense of reality reality especially when used on a daily basis in short the Manson family literally lost touch with reality through their constant drug use making making them overly susceptible to Charlie's prophetic rantings throughout the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine. He was able to scare his followers into believing vingt helter skelter was on their doorstep. Charlie even recruited a local biker gang the straight Satans to act as his army when helter skelter broke out he recruited them the same way he got everything he wanted by pimping out his female followers and providing the gang with mountains of drugs rugs and free booze. It's hard to say whether the straight Satans actually believed they might be called upon to fight for Manson or if they just knew a free party not when they saw one in addition to recruiting straight satans men stockpiled rifles and guns and taught his followers how but he used them in one particularly chilling interview squeaky fromm e flanked by two other followers showed a journalist how to load a rifle foale. She told them she was able to shoot anyone at any time because she had no fear Charlie she said had taken all the fear so that that she didn't need to carry it. She wasn't alone in that feeling on July. Twenty seventh nineteen sixty nine Charlie ordered Bobby Beausoleil to murder for his friend and musician Gary Hinman at Henman's cabinet into Panga Kenyon at Charlie's behest bobby wrote political piggy on the wall wall of Henman's cabin in blood he also used blood to draw a pop print in the hopes of associating the murder with the Black Panthers Charlie really hoped that when news broke that the black panthers had murdered a white man in cold blood racial tension would skyrocket this would finally start the race. I swore that would burn L. A. to the ground but much to his dismay the police were slow to assume the black panthers were involved instead they took note of Henman's missing car and collected the bloody fingerprints left all over the crime scene yet as much as police didn't immediately suspect the the Black Panthers. Nobody seemed to have any leads on who committed the murders either except one person kitty loot singer a Manson family family member and Bobby Beausoleil as girlfriend. Her testimony cracked the case Wide Open In her to the ground then kicked her repeatedly the other followers watched in horror but knew not to intervene better to let Charlie take check out his aggression on someone else. Charlie finally relented when Gypsy spit out blood and left her in a heap in the dirt. He threatened in to kill any member. That tried to leave then retreated into his cabin. Charles Manson had grown wild and unpredictable the fun loving charismatic. Here's matic spirit that had drawn his thirty two followers to the ranch was gone that they realized was the part of Charlie inhabited by Jesus now they were seeing the Devil Charlie was unraveling. He knew he needed to create a distraction to throw the heat off. Bobby in the rest of the Manson crew helter skelter needed to start. He knew the world around him was ready to snap. It just needed a little little push in a moment. The Manson family takes an infamous trip into Los Angeles Angeles after a full day of recording true crime podcasts. It's nice to take a break and clear my head with best fiends of five live star mobile rated game. It's fun puzzle game that gets more challenging as I finish each level. Some of the levels are really challenging but that's what makes it fun. I'm finally up to Level One thirty nine. Deep Dive Bow. The dragon slug has joined my team and I've also caught a few of minutia most wanted best. Fiends really helps me relax. I usually play after my kids are asleep. I sometimes squeeze in Games. If I'm early to meet a friend for dinner coffee I can play it offline from anywhere best fiends updates the game monthly with new levels and events so it never gets old best fiends has over one hundred million downloads globally and I can certainly see why I love playing it and I think you will to engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters to five star rated mobile game on the apple APP store and Google play download free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best beans and Vanessa and I have some exciting news for you. Starting now you can listen to female criminals episodes that are older than six months completely completely ad free exclusively on stitcher premium. We're always looking for ways to improve the listener experience. We found an amazing partner in stitcher to bring you episodes roads ad free six months after they're released again. This will only affect episodes older than six months. Nothing else will change. We'll still be releasing. New female criminals knows episodes. Wherever you listen to podcasts for a free month trial go to stitcher premium dot com slash podcast and use Promo Code podcast. That's stitcher premium dot com slash podcast and use Promo Code podcast now back to the story the morning of August Eighth Nineteen sixty-nine was dry an unusually cool considering it was the height of summer. You're on Spahn ranch. The tension was building as twenty one year old. Bobby Beausoleil sat in prison for the murder of Gary Henman Charles Charles Manson. Now thirty four worried that bobby would send the police after the family as the day went on. Nobody saw Charlie the rest to the family tried to avoid him knowing he was on edge then as the sun began to set twenty four year old. Tex Watson approached a few of the girls and told them to get into the car they were headed into town on a mission for Charlie. Linda Ca Sabin Twenty Patricia Krenwinkel Twenty and Susan Atkins Twenty one followed him without question. The girls assumed they were going on a creepy crawly. When members of the family broke broke into homes late at night and committed petty theft before they left the ranch techs handed the girls speed capsules. They took the pills then set head off Linda for her part was thrilled. She didn't like stealing but she was excited. That Charlie had chosen her by name for a mission it. It was a sign of approval from a man she desperately wanted to please that need for approval was what kept. Manson's followers on the ranch even even more so than Charlie's death rates. The nineteen sixty three milgram shock experiment studied our susceptibility to authority figures. The study was originally originally conducted to determine how likely it was that Nazi war criminals were truly just following orders in the experiment participants were instructed instructed to deliver small electrical shocks to another subject at the instruction of a man in a white doctor's coat holding a clipboard in truth. The shocks were ruse. No one in the study was harmed but with each shock the subject reacted as if they were truly being electrocuted electrocuted at first the shocks were light but they became increasingly more painful causing the subject to scream in agony when the participant flippant delivering the sharks questioned whether or not to keep going the man in the white coat said please continue eventually the participants believed they were delivering lethal shocks but the man and the white coat assured them d experiment requires that you continue so they kept going back every single participant allow themselves to be pushed far beyond a reasonable breaking point before saying no sixty five percent of participants pence never stopped delivering shocks until they were told the subject was dead. Milgram wrote in his paper titled. The perils of obedience obedience stark authority was pitted against the participants strongest moral imperatives against hurting others and with the participants ears ringing bringing with the screams of the victims authority one more often than not the extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of of an authority constitutes chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation to the Manson Women Charlie was the ultimate authority and they would follow any of his commands most ardently after all they had sacrificed a great deal to be part out of this family as the car wound through the Canyon leading to Los Angeles in the early morning hours of August Ninth Nineteen nineteen sixty nine. Linda felt a growing prick of excitement. It had been weeks and she'd been selected for creepy crawly. She wanted to bring back something something special for Charlie to prove herself texts wove through Los Angeles and up into Beverly Hills. They drove past lavish homes finally pulling up in front of one. Oh Five Oh Cielo drive the home was set back from the road but they could see the warm lamplight from the living room coming through the trees techs hopped out of the car and cut the telephone line to the House with wire-cutters then he motioned for Linda Patricia and Susan to follow him. They got out of the car unsure of what they were doing at the house. Linda didn't question why I texts had a rope and a gun with him. They walked to the back of the property scale the fence and crept through the trees and bushes that filled the yard but they they stopped short at bright headlights coming up the long driveway techs motioned for the girls to get down as he stepped onto the driveway and waved down the car. When it stopped he fired four bullets through the passenger side window killing the driver. Steven Parent Linda was stunned. Texts forced her to steal the drivers wallet her hands shook as she reached into the dead man's pocket then techs told her to go to the back of the house and act as a lookout while he Susan and Patricia made their way to the front of the house when the trio reappeared in the backyard. They each brandished knives. Linda watched in horror as tex cut a long slow slit into the screen door still in shock she stayed in the backyard as the others disappeared inside in the Living Room Twenty six year old Sharon tate who was eight months pregnant was hosting a small get together with friends. Tate was a stunningly beautiful for up and coming starlet who was looking forward to becoming a first time parent with her husband. Roman Polanski around the coffee table were her friends the J. C.. Bring a famous hairdresser and tate's former boyfriend Vojtech Reich Hausky a friend of Polanski's who was staying with the couple while in town and Abigail folder heir to the folger's coffee fortune. The foursome went silent as they stared at the three young adults who had just crashed into their living room home. The intruders just stood there for a moment before text took the rope off his shoulder and ordered the foursome to huddle together in the living room he then took the rope and looped it around all four of their necks throwing the end over a beam running across the ceiling he pulled on the rope until it was taught binding the captives together tate folder see bring and Frankowski stayed silent and cooperated hoping that the three three lunatics would rob them and go away but that hope quickly faded when tex bellowed. You're all going to die. Sharon tate lead out a blood curdling scream that Linda could here in the backyard in the chaos text. Let the rope slacken and the four captives freed themselves and tried to scatter though they didn't get far Tech Shot J. C.. Bring who fell to the ground he then shot for cow mosquito twice and hit him over the head with the butt of his gun thirteen times then he turned back to the wounded see bring and stabbed him to the death. Susan Atkins meanwhile closed in on Sharon tate. She pleaded for her life but Susan showed her no mercy she stabbed Sharon Sixteen Times and briefly considered cutting the baby out of her stomach. Patricia chased Abigail Bolger around the living living-room delivering a few blows with a knife before Abigail escaped down the hallway for a house-key miraculously still alive crawled towards towards the sliding glass door and got to his feet shaking. He stumbled out into the backyard where he ran into Linda who was beside herself with terror in a later interview. Linda recalled looking into his eyes and watching the life leave them. She knew he was dying. And didn't know how to stop it. Linda and Frankowski stood there both gasping for air unable to form words until until he finally limped past her and collapsed in the yard seconds later texts came running out of the sliding glass door jumped on Frankowski ski and stabbed him again and again fifty one times in total meanwhile inside the House Abigail folder made a break for it and ran into the side yard with Patricia hot on her trail folder dizzy from blood loss tripped on her dress and fell to <unk> her knees folder screamed for her mother as Patricia climbed on top of her and stabbed her twenty eight times Linda could adhere Abigail Shrieking in Pain Patricia screaming and fury and the knife cutting into flesh over and over again it made her nauseous nauseous for a moment she thought about making a break for it running to a nearby house for help but she knew that wasn't an option the other the three would find her and kill her along with anyone else she had spoken to so for lack of a better option. Linda went to the car and waited needed inside the house. What began as a horror show? Only became more gruesome. Susan Atkins dipped a towel in Sharon's blood and wrote pig on the front door and death to pigs on the living room wall as tate lay dying the Manson family members rocked act a rope around her neck and strung her up by the ceiling beam. She died of blood loss and strangulation. Her baby died fifteen minutes. It's later finally Patricia. Susan and tax came tearing down the embankment. They piled into the car sweaty from exertion thrilled at the atrocities they just committed as they tore off their bloody clothes. Techs told Linda to drive. He was furious curious. She hadn't participated in the murders. Patricia complained that she hurt her wrist. She worried she had strained it. While stabbing through Abigail folger's bones Jones when they finally pulled back up to spawn ranch charlie came out to greet them he asked if any of them had any remorse and without hesitation Haitian each of them including Linda responded no the next morning the tate family's housekeeper walked in on the bloodbath wrath at one. Oh Oh five Oh Cielo drive she found Steven Parent shot dead in his car abigail folder and Vojtech Frank house-key ski in the Yard J._C.. Bring and Sharon Tate stabbed to death inside. It wasn't until the news broke on television that Linda Learn Sharon tate it had been pregnant. The murders reverberated throughout Los Angeles. The only obvious motive seemed to be that the Polanski's in their friends were randomly only targeted for being affluent Hollywood types. The Los Angeles elite went into panic mode. Local shelters were overwhelmed by homeowners looking to adopt ferocious guard dogs calls flooded the police stations demanding to know their plans to prevent another attack while the rest of Los Angeles grieved Charles Manson stewed he was proud that his followers had killed Sharon tate and her friends but found himself self upset with how messy job had been that afternoon he approached Linda Kosabe Ian and told her she would be driving them into town again end that night. He was going with them this time he was going to show them how to make a clean kill. A few you hours later on the night of August Tenth Nineteen Sixty Nine Linda Kosabe Ian Drove Charles Manson Patricia Krenwinkel Tex Watson <music> Susan Atkins Clem Grogan and Leslie van Houten down the long dirt road to Los Angeles. They drove through the east side to the upscale upscale Los Angeles neighborhood and pulled up in front of thirty three o one waverly Dr Linda braced herself yesterday's yesterday's nightmare was about to repeat in a moment the Manson family he makes another attempt to ignite helter skelter. They seem like a friend or even family. You trust them with your life but behind the promises of fame success and riches beyond your wildest dreams. It's just another scammer are trying to cheat you out of your life savings every week the new podcast original con artists dives into the psychology of hustlers swindlers handlers and fraudsters to share with you. The greatest cons of all time con artists come from different walks of life and we cover all of them theranos Renaud's founder and C._E._o.. Elizabeth Holmes grew her company to a value of nine billion dollars. Despite the fact that its flagship technology did not not work Jordan Belfort also known as the wolf of Wall Street partied hard and made millions while engaging in stock market manipulation and Bernie Madoff Atop Wall Street market maker who operated one of the biggest Ponzi schemes of all time conning thousands of clients out of a total of almost almost sixty five billion dollars spot the con- before it finds you listen to con artists search for and subscribe to Con Artists Artists on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash con artists to listen now and be sure to stick around after after this show to hear a clip of the first episode of Con Artists Now back to the story thirty four year old Charles Manson had a simple plan to ignite helter skelter and throw the heat off Bobby Beausoleil who sat in jail awaiting awaiting a murder trial he instructed his family to murder L. as well to do and blame the crimes on the Black Panthers until eventually there there would be riots on the streets. The country was a powder keg. It just needed a spark which is why on the night of August tenth nineteen eighteen sixty nine. He piled into the car with twenty year old Linda Kosabe Ian Nineteen Year Old Leslie Van Houten Twenty One year old Patricia Krenwinkel twenty one year old Susan Atkins Nineteen Year Old Clem Grogan and twenty four year old Tex Watson ready to kill in cold blood. They pulled up to the home of Lino and Rosemary Labianca a successful grocery store chain owner and boutique owner respectively. Everyone waited in the car while Charles hopped the fence and snuck into the house he held the Law Bianca's at knife point and tied their hands behind on their backs. Then he came back out to the car and Directed Leslie Patricia and text to take care of them as they went went inside Charlie hopped into the driver's seat and drove off with the other three accomplices inside the house. Another slaughter lauder ensued Leslie Van Houten Stabbed Rosemary Labianca Forty One Times Patricia and tax took care of Lino leaving him him with twenty six stab wounds police also found a knife and fork sticking out of his backside and the word war carved into his stomach mic after stabbing the lobby youngest to death they threw pillowcases over the victim's heads and wrapped a lamp cord around both their necks just as they had done with the rope at the tate residence the night before again they wrote in blood all over the walls death to pigs helter skelter and the word rise then instead of fleeing the scene they took their time showering and fixing a meal in the kitchen before hitchhiking back to spawn ranch. Meanwhile Manson drove west with Susan Clem and Linda he was upset that Linda hadn't killed killed anyone the night before tonight she would prove her allegiance to helter skelter. Charlie drove to the apartment building of the actor Linda had met on Venice beach. He gave her a knife and told her to slit the man's throat. Linda got out of the car and and Susan and Clem followed her into the apartment. Building Manson drove off back to spahn ranch. Linda could hear her heart beating in her ears says she climbed the staircase to her new friends apartment she didn't know what to do. She didn't want to kill anyone but she felt like she had no choice. Susan and Clem were close behind her. She could feel their bloodlust. The two of them were ready for murder. Linda wondered if they were jealous list that they wouldn't be the ones to deliver the fatal blow as she stepped into the hallway. Her hands began to shake she felt clammy and cold old time seemed to slow as she made her way to the door. She walked past her friend's apartment to the next door down and timidly she knocked an older man answered the door and stared at Linda expectantly. She swallowed hard. Her mouth. Both felt dry. She backed up and turn to Susan and clamp explaining. That's not him wrong apartment. Susan and Clem looked genuinely genuinely disappointed. The three hitchhiked back to spawn ranch. Linda quietly wondered whether Charlie would kill her in her sleep uh the next morning when the news of the law bianca murders broke L._A.. was thrown into a frenzy Manson was sure this was the beginning of helter skelter. He waited for news of riots in the streets but after a full day he was left disappointed Linda for her part art feared the consequences of leaving Venice Beach unbloodied but when Manson finally came to her he told her he had a new mission for her tomorrow she would go see Bobby Beausoleil in jail and find out what he planned to tell police Linda agreed. She knew instantly that this this was her ticket out of spawn ranch that night. She packed a bag for herself and her daughter. She didn't sleep a wink. The next morning thing she woke up early and went to the cabin where the children were kept only to discover that they had been taken down to the freshwater pool to play in the little waterfall nearby. It was then that Linden made the most difficult decision of Sure the family wouldn't hurt her child. At least she prayed that was the case she grabbed her bag and keys and told Charlie she was going to see bobby lobby. She drove off the ranch and didn't stop until she reached New Mexico. When Linda didn't return that night it became clear that she had no intention of coming back but Manson likely felt that she would keep quiet to avoid being implicated in the murders. It certainly seems as though he was unconcerned. The crimes of the Manson family continued as rapidly as ever a week league after the first set of murders on August fifteenth the Manson family heard from an old friend kitty loot singer Bobby's girlfriend she wasn't isn't getting along with her parents on their horse ranch and begged someone to come pick her up and bring her back to the family. Charlie was more than glad to bring her back into the fold especially with Bobby's arrest. He wanted his family as close as he could. Keep them the very next day. August sixteenth eighteenth spun ranch was raided by police not in connection to the murders but rather for car theft several family members were arrested including Kitty and the children on Spahn ranch were taken into state custody as a result. Linda Kosabe Ian was reunited with her daughter Tanya Nia. She returned to L._A.. To grab her daughter than immediately took her back into hiding in New Mexico. Only police knew where Linda would be staying. The Manson family was soon released from police custody on a technicality but after the close call they decided to flee spahn ranch they moved moved to death valley to a cabin called Barker Ranch Barker ranch was a rustic bare-bones cabin in the middle of nowhere belonging belonging to the grandmother of one of the family members. It should have been the perfect place to hide out but even in that remote location Manson and his family managed managed to draw attention to themselves for one thing they were broke and had to resort to petty crime to make ends meet for another they made nonsensical Pensacola drug fueled decisions that gave them away as troublemakers as one example they set fire to some equipment owned by National Park Service Rangers for no discernible reason the locals easily figured out that the wave of petty theft was connected to the cult that had moved in down the road and and reported them to police but the true nail in the coffin came in early October of nineteen sixty nine after months of pleading. Kitty finally convinced Susan to tell her why Bobby was being held by the police. Susan revealed everything about what had happened at Henman's cabin that that summer Susan looked proud as she recounted the murder even laughing at parts it was that terrifying pride that pushed kitty over the the edge on October ninth nineteen sixty nine kitty fled Barker ranch and went straight to the police over the next three days. Barker ranch was raided multiple times in connection with stolen property leading to multiple arrests. Susan Atkins was also so arrested in connection with the murder of Gary Hinman but amazingly none of the raids led police to connect the Manson family to the tate. LABIANCA murders worse instead. It was Susan Atkins that gave the family away a few weeks after her arrest. She bragged to her cellmate about killing Sharon Sharon tate. The cellmate routed atkins out without a second thought from there. The rest of the family fell like dominoes by by this point. Most of the family was already in cuffs in connection to theft and the machinery fires. The police already had all their suspects in custody. They just just needed to connect them to the murders. Thanks to fingerprints lifted from the scene. Leslie Techs and Patricia were charged with the Law Bianca and tate hate murders in addition. Susan Atkins agreed to testify against the family members as a way of avoiding the death penalty. She later recanted chanted her statement but it's still gave police the necessary ammunition to round up the remaining suspects. Clem Grogan Linda Kosabe Ian and Charles Manson himself Linda CA sapien quickly agreed to testify against the family in exchange for immunity police were happy to work with her after realizing that she had tried to stay uninvolved with the murders and fled the family as soon as she was able would follow next was nothing short of a media circus. Charles Manson proved to be a charismatic engaging villain. The country watched in horror as his story unfolded unfolded the trials began on June fifteenth nineteen seventy and continued until late March of the following year Manson was originally originally allowed to act as his own attorney although his increasingly defiant behavior quickly lost him that privilege throughout the trial he left the country spellbound as he went on rant after nonsensical rant about the police his own divinity race wars murder love fear fear and death in fact Manson proved so colorful and captivating that he upstaged the victims slowly the press press stopped calling them the tate and lobby young murders and instead referred to the crimes as the Manson family murders. The unincorporated raided family members gathered outside the courthouse every day in support of their leader. They sang songs and repeated nonsensical rhetoric. That sounded like it had come straight from Charlie's mouth reporters relayed this to Charlie asking if he'd brainwashed his followers he replied quote these children children that come at you with knives there your children you taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up. Yep but in fact the speeches the followers repeated were well rehearsed squeaky fromm e visited Manson in prison every evening to get the script script for the next day then dutifully delivered it to the news reporters who all knew her by name squeaky became an overnight celebrity when Manson's shaved his head in prison. Several family members followed suit one day. He carved an ex into his forehead during the trial. It was meant to symbolize having xt himself out of society. Several of his followers did the same they told reporters they had deleted lead themselves from mainstream culture. They were completely free a word that was often associated with the hippie movement the Manson family he is widely credited with killing Hippie counterculture even though they never considered themselves hippies their drug use and flower child aesthetic was enough for the mainstream mainstream to make the connection the friction inside and outside of the courtroom each day mirrored the violent demonstrations against the Vietnam War and the Kent State shootings that took place just days before Manson's trial began. The spirit of the sixties was dead a final victim. Uh of Charles Manson on April Nineteenth Nineteen seventy-one Manson was sentenced to death Patricia texts. Susan and Leslie were all sentenced to death as well but their sentences were commuted to life in prison the next year BLENDA CA Sabin is the only person present for the murders who served no jail time she was only with the Manson family for four weeks and has spent the past past fifty years in hiding Bobby Beausoleil is still in prison for Gary Henman's murder. He has been denied parole eighteen times with with little hope of ever being released. Lynette squeaky fromm me was uninvolved in the Manson family murders but was a constant fixture outside the courthouse house during the trials. She made headlines again in nineteen seventy five for the attempted assassination of president Gerald Ford. She spent the next thirty four years in prison. After being paroled she moved to upstate New York where folks around her apartment complex say she is a model. Oh neighbor squeaky says she has a boyfriend but will always love Charles Manson who died in two thousand seventeen at the age of eighty three the Manson family murders continue to reverberate and not just because of the grotesque scenes left in their wake. They marked marked a moment in American culture. A microcosm of the political tension felt in every corner of the country. The loss of life was was senseless. The violence was unfathomable. The tightknit cult was nothing short of terrifying and yet like so many displays as of human depravity. We find ourselves unable to look away. Thanks again for tuning into our female criminals summer of sixty nine special. If you enjoyed this episode checkout par our casts continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second until August ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode of Female Criminals Criminals next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you vast how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast fast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see next time. Female Criminals was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and as part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler with sound design by Michael Lang Sner production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley. This episode of female criminals was written by Aaron Land and Stars Sammy Ni- and Vanessa Richardson now that this episode is over. Here's a clip of our first episode of the podcast our cast original con artists. It's about Bernie Madoff Atop Wall Street market maker who operated an elaborate Ponzi scheme and conned thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars search for an subscribed con artists on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit bit-part cast dot com slash con artists to listen now.

Gary Henman Charles Charles Ma Charlie murder Steven Parent Linda Susan Atkins Susan Gary Hinman Bobby Beausoleil Spahn ranch bobby Sharon tate Los Angeles Vanessa Richardson Leslie van Houten Linda CA Sabin Linda Patricia spotify Clem Grogan Gary Henman Linda Kosabe
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Not Guilty

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"In their true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer knowledge uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. I had so much fun competing in episode two against my good friend and Co host Greg. It was a no holds barred match. I hope you enjoy. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime mhm questions whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic on lightning lightening. Even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host. extraordinaire ordinaire Greg. And Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players. Go head the head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation violent. Elliot mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back. The manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests. Ready to show off their incredibly ably. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you both ready to face off. Yeah necessarily drags trepidation to you. Our listeners play along as we find out who has killer. Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. Christians A B and C broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. You Buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa. Your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The the questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio and a father who is a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys. The school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? BE A gun C- cigarettes cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident Manson and was returned to the boys school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'M GONNA say. His first was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game gain. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game Out and now Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short works skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage in convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All Right Gregg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car. In Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do two years later but from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers. Here's to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy be Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A Pinot be guitar. See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours our studying a Christian science be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's let's see scientology. Scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's it's even been reported that. He declared himself scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion region. The story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa for Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned into join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors creek. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make fun Senescence. The door for you you can guess I think I it. Would the doors also incorrect headed to be the monkey. Is the monkeys those. The rumor band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change four greg now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in prison Zain Be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. Hey he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Charles. Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made. It is way to San Francisco right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of of Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number. Eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five. Two in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine. which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer? A Dennis Wilson B. Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson Greg. Be Brian Wilson that his his incorrect on frayed. Do you have. I guess a Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking king on Sunset Boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles? Louis okay. The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. How after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round? What was the name? Some of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn. Ranch see see cal Amigos Ranch Greg be spahn ranch. That's correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five edgar movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon. Conspiracies Parisi's okay. With that point greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed followed. Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader. When we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's since teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game? Why looking can get me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Carl Wilson Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles Charles spotify Vanessa Richardson California Greg Zero Scientology Jimmy Hoffa Greg Poulsen California Los Angeles Dennis Wilson Carter Roy Dennis Wilson B. Brian Wilson burglary
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Female Criminals

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"In their true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer knowledge uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. I had so much fun competing in episode two against my good friend and Co host Greg. It was a no holds barred match. I hope you enjoy. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime mhm questions whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic on lightning lightening. Even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host. extraordinaire ordinaire Greg. And Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players. Go head the head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation violent. Elliot mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back. The manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests ready to show off their incredibly Bley. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you both both ready to face off. Yeah necessarily drags trepidation to you. Our listeners play along as we find out who has killer. Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and instagram at par cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. Christians A B and C broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. You Buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa. Your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The the questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio and a father who is a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys. The school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? BE A gun C- cigarettes cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident Manson and was returned to the boys school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'M GONNA say. His first was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game gain. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game Out and now Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short works skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage in convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All Right Gregg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other kids. They were eventually caught in a stolen car. In Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do two years later but from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers. Here's to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy be Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A Pinot be guitar. See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty our studying a Christian science be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's let's see scientology. Scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's it's even been reported that. He declared himself scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion Jn the story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa for Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned into join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors creek. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make buzzed the door for you. You can guess I think it I it would the doors also incorrect. Not being the Monkey. Is the monkeys those. The rumor band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change four greg now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in prison Zain Be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. Hey he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Charles. Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made. It is way to San Francisco right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of of Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number. Eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five. Two in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and his his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that his his incorrect on frayed. Do you have. I guess. A Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking king on sunset boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who at the time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles? Louis okay. The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. How after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round? What was the name? Some of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn. Ranch see see cal Amigos Ranch Greg be spahn ranch. That's correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five edgar movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon. Conspiracies Parisi's okay. With that point greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's since teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why looking can get me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Manson Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles Charles spotify Vanessa Richardson California Greg Zero Greg Poulsen Jimmy Hoffa California Los Angeles Dennis Wilson Carter Roy Scientology Carl Wilson Indiana
Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

Tales

14:34 min | 6 months ago

Listen First! KILLER KNOWLEDGE, A Parcast Original Series!

"In their true crime fans and then there are true. Crime experts. See where you fall in the podcast Trivia. podcast killer knowledge uncover more about some of the most shocking topics from history such as the Manson Family Jonestown. And even Jimmy Hoffa. I had so much fun competing in episode two against my good friend and Co host Greg. It was a no holds barred match. I hope you enjoy. Here's Carter to tell you more about his new show. Thank you so much. Every Tuesday on my new trivia show killer knowledge to players go head to head to correctly answer multiple choice true crime mhm questions whoever gains the most points after twenty questions wins with each question and answer comes additional context surrounding the topic on lightning lightening. Even the most knowledgeable true crime lover play along in this exclusive clip from our second episode with a couple of very special contestants and podcast host. extraordinaire ordinaire Greg. And Vanessa and see how will you measure up if you want to listen to the full episode. Follow killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The nineteen sixties were a decade of divisiveness change while some protested peacefully Charles Manson and his followers made sure. This era era of counterculture ended in bloodshed. The summer of sixty nine is now forever synonymous with the Manson family murders. Welcome to killer knowledge a par cast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as two players. Go head the head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders. That shocked the nation violent. Elliot mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top in serial killers like Ted Bundy. Who craved notoriety? This week we're looking back. The manson family murders that resonated beyond the California hippie culture joining me today are two very special guests. Ready to show off their incredibly ably. Deep true crime expertise hosts of multiple PODCASTS. Here on the podcast network. Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson. Are you both both ready to face off. Yeah Greg's trepidation to you our listeners. Play along as we find out who has killer Knowledge Greg Vanessa. Welcome to the show will get into the Trivia in just a minute but first before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners leave us a review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and on twitter at podcast network Greg and Vanessa. Let's lay off the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. Christians A B and C broken up into three rounds fair warning. The questions will get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the point for for that question. An incorrect answer gives the other player. The chance to get it right greg. You Buzz and I will hear this sound Vanessa. Your buzzer sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the par cast golden headphones. Make sense to you yes okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The the questions will follow the story of how a young Charles Manson developed into the cult leader. We know today a Manson had a rough childhood. He was born in Nineteen thirty four to a sixteen year old runaway mother in Cincinnati Ohio and a father who was a well known local con artist from Kentucky after being in and out of a boys. The school in Indiana Manson eventually found himself living with an aunt and uncle truancy became an issue for young Charles. But it wasn't long before things got more serious Manson got caught stealing from his uncle on Christmas Day in nineteen forty seven when he was just thirteen years old. Here's question number one. What did Manson get caught stealing a money? BE A gun C- cigarettes cigarettes Vanessa. I believe it was a gun. You are correct gun. It was after that incident Manson and was returned to the boys school but he ran away again. Okay so we're often running Vanessa. One Greg Zero after running away from school this time time. Manson got involved with a group of petty criminals. On this is when his own criminal record would begin so for question number two. What did Charles Manson Manson? I get arrested for as a child. A arson be assault see burglary. We have a taker with Vanessa I'M GONNA say. His first was burglary burglary. Is the right answer at the time. He was with a friend's uncle when the police caught them at a grocery store in Illinois at thirteen years old he was then sent to the very strict. Indiana boys. School Vanessa with two points Greg at zero. While at the Indiana Boys School Manson claimed he was severely bullied and assaulted in response. He developed a defense mechanism in which he would screech and wave his arms to scare off his attackers for question number three. What did young Charles Manson call his defense tactic a the insane game? Be the bully game gain. See The screaming Game Greg. A The insane game Out and now Manson was Small as a boy even as an adult many believed he was somewhere between five two and five six top. So as a very short works skinnier child Charles hoped the insane game would give him leverage in convince anyone trying to attack him that he was crazy and would leave him alone. All Right Gregg is on the board so it is now two to one in favor of Vanessa. You won't be surprised to hear that Charles eventually escaped the Indiana boys school with some other the kids they were eventually caught in a stolen car in Utah. Sixteen year old Charles. Manson was attempting to make his way to California which we know he would do two years later but from nineteen fifty one to nineteen sixty one. Manson would end up in prison multiple times from juvenile detention centers. Here's to maximum security facilities. But he didn't waste his time in jail. In nineteen sixty one. Twenty six year old Manson would find himself imprisoned in McNeil Island Washington on. That's where he learned to play an instrument from famous depression. Era Gangster Alvin creepy be Corpus. Here's question number four. What instrument did he learn to play in prison? A Pinot be guitar. See Harmonica Vanessa. Guitar Guitar is correct. It is now three to one Vanessa. on Charles Manson also educated himself in other ways while he was locked up in Washington he reportedly spent one hundred fifty hours studying religion before deciding. It was too crazy for him for question number. Five what religion did Charles Manson reportedly spent one hundred fifty our studying a Christian science be mormonism see scientology. Vanessa's in there. It's let's see scientology. Scientology is the right answer. It's believed Manson studied scientology from cellmate. In McNeil Island. It's it's even been reported that. He declared himself scientologist in the summer of nineteen sixty one but in reality was never an official member. After auditing the religion Jn the story goes. He declared it to crazy. So we now stand at Vanessa. Four Greg Won. But don't worry Greg. There is a long way to go well. Even though Manson was still imprisoned in Washington a popular urban legend says that in nineteen sixty five. He auditioned into join a popular rock band. Here's question number six. What influential sixties rock band did Manson allegedly allegedly wanted to join a the beach? Boys be the monkeys. See The doors creek. The beach boys a that is incorrect. It seemed to make buzzed the door for you. You can guess I think it I it. Would the doors also incorrect headed to be. The monkey is the monkeys those the rumor band monkees member. Micky Dolenz confessed. It was a joke. He made that got interpreted as fact the rumor was also debunked since Manson was still serving time time in nineteen sixty five so the point. Tally doesn't change four greg now. In March nineteen sixty seven. At thirty two years old Charles Manson would be released from prison and finally make his way to California but he had one request before being being released question number seven. What was Manson's request before being released a he wanted to stay in prison Zain Be? He wanted his record cleared see. He wanted his cellmate released to Greg. Hey he wanted to stay in prison. A is the correct answer. He wanted to stay in prison since by this time he spent more than half his life behind bars. It made his prison cell feel more like home than any place. He knew. Okay with that Greg now has two point. Sodas four to two in favor of Vanessa. Well we now know Charles Charles. Manson the early years so as we bring this round to close. Let's transition from prison to freedom in California after being released Manson made. It is way to San Francisco right as the summer of Love was starting on the hippie culture at the time boded well for Manson's unconventional lifestyle and love of of Hallucinogenic Drugs and he began attracting groupies soon. He was pushing religious philosophies on them so for question number. Eight which spiritual figure did. Several followers soon compare to Charles Manson a Jesus. Christ be the the Dalai Lama see Muhammad Vanessa. Jesus Christ a just that is right. Jesus Christ is right. Manson began talking about the the end of the world and the judgement of humanity which only pushed their comparisons to Jesus more so it is now five. Two in favor of Vanessa Soon Manson and his his family of six women move towards Los Angeles settling in various areas. This is when Manson's interest in being a singer. Songwriter comes into play but for question number nine which member of the beach boys did they meet and move in with for a summer. A Dennis. Wilson B Brian Wilson C.. Carl Wilson. Greg Be Brian Wilson that his his incorrect on frayed. Do you have. I guess. A Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson is correct. He meant to of Manson's followers when he picked him up hitchhiking king on Sunset Boulevard and took them to his rental home. Little did he know the entire family would eventually show up and stay. Manson even shared his desire to be a musician with Wilson who introduced him to industry contacts including executive Terry Melcher. Who Time lived on Cielo drive in Los Angeles? Louis okay. The score stands at six to two in favor of Vanessa. How after Dennis Wilson purposely let his lease expire and moved out of his rental home Manson and his followers discovered what would become their headquarters in the San Fernando Valley question number ten to finish out this round? What was the name? Some of the ranch where the Manson family would become famously based a Panga ranch be spawn. Ranch see see cal Amigos Ranch Greg be spahn ranch. That's correct now. The spahn ranch was an old fifty five edgar movie. Ranch used for Westerns in Chatsworth California. And it's where Manson would settle his family and really begin to push. His Armageddon. Conspiracies Parisi's okay. With that point greg is up to three and Vanessa still has six and we are now at the halfway mark. We've followed Manson from troubled child to full blown California cult leader when we come back the trivia gets more difficult in round two as we get into Charles Manson's since teachings that ultimately lead to murder and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Why looking can get me to find out what happens next? Listen to killer knowledge free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Charles Manson Manson Manson Muhammad Vanessa Greg Charles Manson Indiana Manson Charles Charles spotify Vanessa Richardson Greg Zero California Greg Poulsen Jimmy Hoffa Greg Won California Los Angeles Dennis Wilson Carter Roy Scientology Carl Wilson
Cults Bites: Psychological Manipulation

Cults

28:17 min | 7 months ago

Cults Bites: Psychological Manipulation

"Hi Vanessa and I have some exciting news for you. Cults is now airing episodes twice a week every Friday. You'll hear cults crime bites where you'll get a brief episode on a true crime theme that's related to the stories on this show is hosted by my co host and good friend Greg and it's a fantastic listening experience. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to podcast crime bites. We wanted to give our listeners. Some additional content to help them dive even deeper into the true crime world every week. Take in addition to your normal colts episode. Were exploring the most fascinating true crime themes covered across the podcast network. We've collected short clips from some some of our most popular podcast originals to help us explore ideas like motivation method and madness and show how interconnected the true crime world world really is you can find the original episodes of these for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. A list of episodes that we used will be posted in the episode description today. We're discussing cases of psychological manipulation. What tactics to criminals use to deceive coerce coerce and exert control over their victims? Why does it work? And most importantly what are the dangerous consequences of these types of mental domination psychiatrist Harvey Saint Clair defined psychological manipulation as a psychosocial maneuver which uses aggressiveness Restiveness Cleverness and deception to influence others so they will give gratification to the aggressor this gratification. Whether that being taking hostage cultivating followers or seducing murder victim is the driving force behind the criminals manipulative actions. They desire to gain absolute control over their prey. Prey Psychologists George Simon identified many tactics manipulators used to dominate their victims such as intense flattery. Playing the victim to to gain sympathy and undermining victims perception of reality through gas lighting. So who do manipulators target. How do they select the right person? PERSON TO FALL PREY TO THEIR SCHEME DR. Harriet breaker identified. The most common traits victims of manipulation possess among them are an eagerness to please these low self reliance desire to earn acceptance of blurry sense of identity and a fear of disapproval in our clips. Today will walk through a variety righty of criminal manipulators and see how they identify these traits victims. We'll start with a clip it from podcast original crimes of passion covering one of the most well known cases of manipulation in true crime history. The Manson family by manipulating in group and out group dynamics in the late nineteen sixties murderer and cult leader Charles Manson radicalized as followers and cultivated and intense devotion that propelled the family to do his bidding while the most famous killings committed by the Manson family where the Tate Lubyanka murders in August of nineteen. sixty-nine their first victim was drug dealer. Gary Hinman hints murder was the catalyst for a string of brutal. Oh killings carried out by the Manson family in the summer of sixty nine in July of nineteen sixty nine Charles learned. The two men were in the midst of argument. Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed that the drugs were tainted tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund the families because in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him Charles knew that Henman was particularly attracted to Manson family member L.. Joe Bayly so. He suggested she go along to help. Persuade Henman but L. A.. Joe Asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests. That visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the family members. Arguing over which guns and weapons. They would bring Henman's apartment instead. Charleston family members. Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers. They held the drug dealer up up at gunpoint. While the spurn Bobby Beausoleil beat him senseless eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment. But when Bobby called Charles let him know he wasn't satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days. Bobby Mary Brenner and Susan. Atkins held Gary Hinman hostage. In his home they continue to make demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him. When Henman told them he'd go to the gleese bobby was spooked? He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology. cleese note that I am not a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. The the American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism. That people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless examples of people falling under a violent cult influence and going on to do the unthinkable licensed mental health. Counselor Stephen Hasson use we use the rise of al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder. These extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus them and Talapity. Charles Charles Manson uses same tactics. Family members looked Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance. Some even thought he was the reincarnation nation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against rich and powerful pigs of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman then dipped his hand in the dying man's blood to draw on the wall he wrote a little piggy and then painted a pawprint. Charles had instructed Bobby to leave evidence incriminating donating the Black Panthers. He hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter. Then the group left after taking Henman's cars with them in this episode covering the Manson Family Gary Hinman murder was only the first in a series of killings soon after the family slaughtered actress Sharon Tate and eight other innocent people all in a bid to kick-start Manson's prophesied race wars but Manson's use of fear and violence was an opposition to many other criminals the HIPPIE era instead they capitalized on the prevailing philosophy of peace and love in this next clip from cults we examined one of the most iconic psychedelic cults of the Nineteen Seventy S. The source family unlike Charles Manson the source families charismatic leader. Jim Baker. You're relied on ideas. Like enlightenment and free love to bind. His disciples to him like Manson Baker was at the center of the source family but instead of acting as a warrior he became their spiritual father offering them love and wisdom in exchange for their loyalty ultimately however this manipulation installation created an all consuming dynamic of extreme dependency between Baker and his disciples what appeared to be a mutually beneficial relationship. was actually in the service of Baker's Crowing Ego Jim Baker typically responded to complex problems by running away from them but this time he didn't cut and run this could be because as psychoanalyst. Daniel Shaw points out in his book. Traumatic narcissism relational systems of subjugation. Listen as a cult leader. Baker developed a codependent relationship with his followers. Shaw writes quote the power that parents have as God like figures to literally give life and sustain. The lives of their children leaves each human being with the memory of total dependency cult leaders tap app into and reactivate this piece of the human psyche. Followers are encouraged to become regressed and Infanta licensed to believe that their life depends pens. Unpleasing the culture and quote and just as much as the source family members needed over. He apparently needed them. According to Shaw the cult leader does not escape dependency instead he and also in many cases she comes to depend on his followers to worship and adore your him to reflect his narcissistic delusion of perfection. In March one thousand nine hundred seventy three. The fifty one year old Baker managed to find a second can home for his followers which they called the Father House a three bedroom three bathroom home. In the hills near the source restaurant it was significantly vacantly smaller than the mother house. A fact that would soon lead to deadly health risks in some ways life at the Father House went on just as it had at the mother house else. Business at the source was still booming and it still required a few dozen family members to run at each day everyone still gathered for four. Am Meditation Tation and spent much of the day cleaning while seeking enlightenment but in other ways everything changed. Baker began channeling new beliefs constantly. Instantly with an ever-expanding emphasis on his own power. He began calling himself by the Jewish name for God Yoga. He taught about the the freemasons and ancient Egyptian magic for his followers. The pursuit of enlightenment became like a whirlwind game in which no one knew the rules else in our episodes on the source family. We go on to examine how Jim Bakker's acres total control over. His followers only increased over the next two years. Eventually their numbers surged to over one hundred fifty people but when a run in with the authorities in Los Angeles forced the cult of Fleet Hawaii Baker or father yoed met his end in fatal hang gliding accident in nineteen seventy. I five for some. It was a death as glorious as Baker's life but for others it was shocking wakeup call. They realized that that for years Baker had manipulated them believing he was guiding them to total enlightenment and in turn his followers had blindly obeyed his every swim but what happens when a criminal delude themselves. into believing that they're heinous actions are truly in the best interest up there. The victim coming up. We discussed the horrifying kidnapping case of Katie Beers and explore the power of of self manipulation from violence and separatist mentality of the Manson family to the all consuming codependent dynamic of the source family criminals have relied on a variety of tactics to exert control over their victims but perhaps the most fascinating method of manipulation is one. The criminal uses on themselves denial and self delusion in our next clip from our show hostage we cover one of the most twisted cases of self delusion the abduction of Katie Beers kidnapped in nineteen ninety two nine year old Katie was kept in underground bunker chain to the wall where she suffered sexual abuse at the hands of our neighbor. John S zero or big John but unlike Charles Manson or Jim Baker Esposito committed his crimes out of the belief but he was helping his victim. Katie came from an abusive home so so esposito convinced himself that showering her with gifts and affection would make Katie happy and feel loved the Nesper. ZITO's mind he had rescued Katie Eighty from her neglectful family. And it was giving your the care and attention. She deserved but in reality he had trapped her in a literal Hell L. on earth. Sometimes big John would come into the bunker to give Katie food or toy and then suddenly the blank look would appear on his face and he would rape her one clue about big. John's mental state is how long he remained in denial about sexually abusing Katie. It took more within twenty years for big John To admit he molested Katie and even then he denied raping her. If Big John Really believed he loved children it it would have been hard for him to reconcile that with the obvious evidence he was seriously harming Katie. Which could lead to denial a psychological coping mechanism on the other hand when John Esposito did finally confess? He blamed his lawyers for telling him not to admit to touching Katie. There is one explanation. A nation that falls somewhere between extreme denial and willful cruelty Catherine Ramsland. Phd Co author of the book inside the minds of of sexual predators. Says one of the most common types of child predators is the quote fixated child offender fixated child offenders. Offenders are stuck at an early stage of psycho sexual development and rationalize away. They're abusive children as showing affection. They may know their our actions are wrong but their fixation on children overrides their moral sensibilities so John might have known he was hurting Katie. But because he was fixated fixated and felt unable to stop. He tried to convince himself he was actually helping her big John's cran gestures like the promise of a car car and a huge amount of money on her eighteenth birthday seem like further rationalizations of this abuse. He was able to convince himself that kidnapping being in sexual abuse were actually a net benefit to his victim. Big John had molested children. Before and in those cases too he cast himself as a helpful male role model in their lives. Among John esposito's victims Katie's sixteen year old maternal half brother John Beers hostage victim. Katie beers survived for seventeen days in John Esposito a bunker throughout her captivity while he tried to manipulate her into forgiving him for kidnapping her she used a variety of tactics to convince Esposito to let go. She pleaded with him if he really loved her. He'd let her leave. Grow up go to college and have a family eventually. ESPOSITO SITO turned himself into the police though it's unclear if he was motivated by guilt over his actions or fear of being caught either way he led the police released to the hidden bunker. Freeing Katie John esposito demonstrated how criminals manipulate their victims while they already have them under their control. But how do they gain a potential victims. Trust in the first place in our next clip from serial killers will examine the tactics of lust murderer her Fritz harmon or the Werewolf of Hanover Harmon killed at least twenty four men from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty four all between the the ages of ten and twenty two to lure his victims in he sometimes offered them assistance or accommodations. Several of the young men he murdered. Were runaways this made them especially vulnerable to harmon strategic kindness. He brought them home to his apartment supplied them with food and drink that once. They're guard was completely down. He savagely attacked them after getting away clean for the second time. New Confidence Fueled Harman's bloodlust so when he met seventeen year old wilhelm shelter at Hanover Station Station in one thousand nine hundred eighty three four weeks after killing Fritz Franken. He couldn't help but approached the boy by now. Harmon had a practice routine for finding suitable suitable victims. He often patrolled Hanover station under the guise of a police officer. Searching for vulnerable. Boys shoots was a young writer who had just run away from home and this made him an easy target for Harman Harman had impersonated a police officer and pretend to lend a sympathetic ear. To the boys troubles. He offered Schultz a place to stay warm meal. She'll say eagerly accepted the offers and followed Harmon to apartment. The room was small but spotless. Thoughtless after nearly getting caught for the murder of Franca just weeks prior harmon had scrubbed every inch in fact. He had been scrubbing the place with harsh chemicals so often that other tenants in the house had complained to the landlord a widow named Elizabeth Angle. But harm it had long ago explained. Ankle that he was very particular about his cleaning habits and she saw no reason to bother attendant for keeping US room tidy besides Harmon was charming angle liked him. His charm also allowed him to urge young boys like Schulte into his bed given his pleasant friendly manner. Harmon was always able to get close to his these victims without making them uncomfortable in these situations harmon especially like to ask US victims about their families. This line of questioning seemed reasonable. Coming coming from police officer but Harman's true goal was anything but noble. He needed to know if anyone would come looking for the boy according to Harman he didn't I always feel a violent urge to kill the boys. He brought back to his apartment. In some cases harmon kept young men around as errand boys for several days. He you gave them small jobs or meals until they stopped coming around other times he raped the boys but did not kill them but unfortunately for Schulte his answers made harmon confident that no one would question his disappearance Harmon pulsed. He grabbed Shilpa by the throat and held him down. He raped him and in the midst of the attack sunk his teeth into shelters Adam's apple this episode of serial killers further details. Fritz Harman's six year reign of terror as the butcher of Hanover. But during at that time the police couldn't help but notice a sharp spike in the number of missing boys and teenagers. His crimes were eventually uncovered when the bones from victims started popping up around town in rivers and fields when harmon was arrested. Police discovered stacks of young men's clothing in his apartment after killing them. He sold off their possessions for extra cash at the end his thriftiness. What's his downfall? Every part of Fritz Harman's interaction with this victim served a purpose from where he hunted to how we approach them to how he killed them he was entirely calculated in his manipulations appellations. But for some criminals their actions aren't so nearly deliberate rather their manipulations encouraged by their own dilutions. Our final clip from female criminals covers convicted murderer. Diane Downs Diane grew up in a strict religious household feeling unloved oft. She searched for ways to fill that hole her entire life. She finally thought she found the one in. Louison may carried on a serious reese affair for the better part of nineteen eighty two but Louis concerned by some Diana behavior. She needed his constant attention at affection. She he also lied about everything spinning whatever stories necessary to keep him close to her. Eventually he broke off the affair and went back to his wife. Diane and was devastated so in May of Nineteen eighty-three. She devised a plan to win. Lou Back if she made herself a victim he would have to compactor. Actor her to save her sadly she involved her three young children in the plot making them victims as well one night. Diane took the kids out for a drive then. She staged a violent carjacking on the night. Night of the shooting. May Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-three detective. Doug Welsh interview Diana at Mackenzie Wilmot. Hospital Welsh was the responding officer that night and this was his first homicide case. Diane told Welsh that she and her children had gone to visit her friend and Mark Cola a nearby town in in Oregon on their way home. She decided to take a longer route. That was more scenic even though it was growing dark as she drove her three sleeping children down down old Mohawk road a deserted country road near the Mohawk River. shaggy-haired man flagged her down making her. Stop the car. Diane God ought to ask what he wanted and he demanded she gives him her keys when she refused the man's snapped pushed her to the side reached into the car and shot the sleeping children. Diane then pretended to throw her car. Keys in the direction of the riverbank to divert the gunman's attention they struggled for a moment and he he shot her in the arm but she managed to get back in the car and race away to the hospital. Parts of the story didn't make sense to Welsh. He said quote sightseeing it seeing when it's pitch black out and why are the kids fatally or near fatally wounded and she being right handed shot in the left arm. I mean think about it it. She's the biggest threat to him. Not Three sleeping children and quote. In addition Diane's account of the events on Mohawk road were inconsistent. She told Welsh the man was bushy-haired then said that he wore a ski mask. I she said that they were attacked by one man but then she said there had been two then reverted back to one. Her evolving narrative is consistent with pathological lying the common symptom in those diagnosed with Histrionic personality. Disorder like Diane. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy according to Dr Mark. D Griffiths patients with HP will often lie as a way to enhance or facilitate silicate their dramatic and attention seeking behavior in this case with the dozens of police and doctors in the hospital focused on her. Diana justed her story to you appear more dramatic as needed while Welsh took Diane statement. Doctors fought to save the three downs children as we further outlined in the female criminals episodes detailing dying down story. She had a long long history of pathological lying though her previous lies never had such high stakes now with their children's lives on the line. Diane constructed an elaborate carjacking jacking story to explain their grave injuries however her attempts to manipulate investigators and increasing desire for their attention exposed host her increasingly convoluted delusions. Ultimately one of Diane downs. Children died from their injuries. The other two spent months in the hospital spital recovering her three year. Old Son was paralyzed from the waist. Down her oldest daughter Christie initially lost the ability to speak but but when she recovered it was her testimony at Diane's trial that center mother to prison for life while the criminals that are clips today utilize different different manipulation tactics. They all shared one common goal to gain control over their victims. We saw Dr Simon's manipulation tactics at play. Diane downs tried to make herself into a victim to manipulate police. Enter ex-boyfriend John esposito tried to use intense flattery to win Katie Beers. Affection even deceiving himself into believing he was saving her. We also saw that. These manipulators shows their victims very carefully. Paying attention to those who are are most vulnerable as laid out by Dr Breaker John. esposito victim was not only child but an abused child who desired the approval of adults for many of Fritz Harman's victims runaways vulnerable to any small amount of kindness. He showed them Jim. Baker offered identity and acceptance to its followers. I who look to Baker for Guidance Enlightenment in the end they all achieved their goal of complete domination. Thanks for tuning into podcast. Crime Bites we hope you enjoyed this episode Odom tactics of psychological manipulation. We'll be back next week with a new episode on Mother's misbehaving. We often think of mothers as the consummate nurturers charterers. Why do they sometimes hurt the ones they love most even their own children? If you'd like to listen to the episodes that we discussed today in full well simply search for our podcast. Original shows crimes of Passion Cults Hostage Serial Killers or female criminals on spotify. Not only to spotify already all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals for free from your your phone desktop or smart speaker and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. I'll see you next time. High podcast listeners. It's Greg Big. If you love cults we'd love to hear from you by taking a quick survey your feedback with help us. Continue Making your favorite shows better than ever please visit is it. PODCAST survey dot me slash cults to answer a few short questions. It may seem small but your input really matters. That's PODCAST survey. Avai dot me slash colts. Thank you for your continued support and for listening.

Gary Hinman Jim Baker Diane Downs Diane John Esposito Manson Baker Hanover Harmon Henman Katie murder Katie Beers Bobby Charles Fritz Harman John Harman Harman spotify officer Diane downs Greg Big Daniel Shaw
Charles Manson Pt. 2: Helter Skelter

Crimes of Passion

56:28 min | 1 year ago

Charles Manson Pt. 2: Helter Skelter

"Due to the graphic nature of these crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder sexual assault drug drug use and violence that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen when Suzanne struthers fifteen year old brother call to tell her. Nobody was answering the door at their mother and stepfather's house. She didn't believe him at first. It was after nine P._M.. And they weren't the type to go out carousing late at night but he insisted she come over. Suzanne told herself. It was probably nothing one of his jokes that she didn't understand but she couldn't shake her rattled nerves she. He took her boyfriend Joe to go investigate. When Suzanne arrived at her parents house she retrieved the spare key and unlocked the back door? Joe suggested that she she weighed in the kitchen while he checked the living room as she waited. Suzanne looked around and spotted a pile of watermelon rinds in the sink. The site of the mess us in her mother's normally meet kitchen gave Suzanne chill a moment later Joe hurried back into the kitchen seeing his face Suzanne's museum worry turned to panic. He wouldn't tell her what he saw in the living room only that they had to leave right now as Joe Joe guided her to the back door. Suzanne glanced at the refrigerator startled scrawled on the door and red paint was a strange message coach helter skelter hi I'm Lena hops and this is crimes of passion apar- cast original the legal definition of a crime of passion is a violent crime that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences but in this show we explore passionate crimes primes how does a marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim or killer and co-conspirator if there's visit them mind between love and hate what manipulates our relationships and a deadly results last week we explorer Charles Manson's troubled troubled childhood in and out of juvenile facilities as an adult. He spent another ten years in prison but despite his criminal tendencies Charles had an amazing talent for manipulating people when he was released from prison in nineteen sixty seven Charles used this power of manipulation addition to attract a following of lost vulnerable people who were desperate for love and guidance he called his group of two dozen disciples the family family under Charles Guidance they spent their day squatting at Spahn ranch and seamy valley taking drugs participating in group sex and listening to Charles Lecture about a coming race war which he called helter skelter but by July of nineteen sixty nine Charles's thoughts and actions were turning increasingly violent after a dispute with a drug dealer named lots of Papa Charles went to lots of poppas apartment can't shot him and left him for dead but this shooting was only the start of the brutality Charles perpetuated that summer in this episode we'll talk about how Charles directed his followers to kill for him how the group began to splinter in the aftermath of the violence and how the family family was finally brought to justice. This episode is part of our casts summer of Sixty Nine Event July twenty second through August night. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen eighteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals will be digging into the fallout of emo KS assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Cold Old and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new park has presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach reach out on facebook and Instagram podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to assist to leave a five star review where ever you're listening it really does help the last week we explored Charles Manson's troubled childhood in and out of juvenile facilities as an adult. He spent another another ten years in prison but despite his criminal tendencies Charles had an amazing talent for manipulating people when he was released from prison in nineteen sixty seven Charles used his power of manipulation to attract a following of lost vulnerable people who were desperate for love love and guidance he called his group of two dozen disciples the family under Charles's guidance they spent their day squatting at spahn ranch in Seamy Amy Valley taking drugs participating in group sex and listening to Charles Lecture about a coming race war which he called helter skelter but by July of nineteen sixty nine Charles thoughts and actions were turning increasingly violent after dispute with a drug dealer her name Martha Papa Charles went to lots of poppas apartment shot him and left him for dead but this shooting was only the start of the brutality Liberty Charles perpetuated that summer in this episode we'll talk about how Charles directed his followers to kill for him how the group began to splinter in in the aftermath of the violence and how the family was finally brought to justice after Charles gunned down on lots of Papa in July of nineteen sixty nine he bragged to his followers about the shooting but he wrongly believed lots of Papa was affiliated with the Black Panthers Panthers and worried that the panthers might come after the family and Revenge Charles became fixated on his plan to flee death valley and Wade out helter authors kilter in isolated safety there Charles said they would hide in a pit until the world returned to order but before they could make take their trip to the desert the family needed to raise some funds Charles Thaad one potential source of income might be thirty four year old music teacher and drug dealer dealer Gary Henman and men was friendly with the family sometimes letting them crash at his house but Charles was an interested in the man's friendship <music> with Henman as with all Charles's relationships Charles only cared about how he could use the other person to benefit himself this. This was also how Charles felt about twenty one year old musician Bobby beausoleil bobby wasn't an official member of the family but he hung out at the ranch frequently frequently listen to Charles Lectures about helter skelter and was romantically involved with some of the family women in July of nineteen sixty nine nine Charles learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed name but the drugs were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to to help fund the families 'cause in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman Bliss particularly attracted to Manson family member eligible Bailey so he suggested she go along to help her swayed Henman but L. A. Joe asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the family members arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring the Henman's apartment instead Charleston family members Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers they he held the drug dealer up at gunpoint while the spurn Bobby Beausoleil beat him senseless eventually henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles goals as payment but when bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days Bobby Mary Brenner and Susan Atkins held Gary Hinman hostage in his home. They continue to make demands demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him when Henman told them he'd go to the police bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology please note that I am not a licenced psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism that people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists his point to countless examples of people falling under a violent Colt influence and going on to do the unthinkable licensed mental health counselor stephen in Hassen use the rise about Keta and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder these extremist extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus them mentality polity Charles Manson uses same tactics family members look to Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance some even thought he he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs news of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles Girls gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman then dipped his hand and the dying man's blood head to draw on the wall he wrote political piggy and then painted pawprint Charles had instructed bobby to leave evidence incriminating the Black Panthers he hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kick off helter skelter then then the group left taking Henman's cars with them back at spahn ranch. Susan Atkins boasted to the other women about the murder but not all the family members were impressed. Ella Jo Bailey felt sick to her stomach. She couldn't believe that the people she saw every day. People she loved could casually admit to murder she had heard about Charlie early shooting and Black Panther a few weeks before but that hadn't hit her the same way. She figured it was just Charlie. Protecting the family hearing about Henman's death was different. She knew Henman she had been invited into his home l.. A. Joe wondered what might have happened if she hadn't refused to go back. Perhaps she could have done something to help. Henman now it was too late and she felt paralyzed. Paralyzed with guilt eligible reflected on her time with the Family Charlie had been the center of her life for nearly two years she she had once thought she'd be happy to follow Charlie's lead for the rest of her life but now she admitted that she felt differently. Perhaps it had started when Bill Vance joined the group bill was special and at some point after he arrived L. A. Joe had begun to think of him as her boyfriend but Charlie discouraged the family from forming attachments he told them that everyone belong to everyone else. Falling in love with bill was eligible first act of disobedience against Charlie now in the wake of Henman's death. L. Joe began to steal herself up for another her larger rebellion as soon as she could Bobby beausoleil decided to flee to San Francisco driving the car he had stolen from Henman but the car broke down midway there when highway highway patrol stopped to help they realized that an all points bulletin had been issued for the stolen car the officers discovered the knife bobby had used to stab hinman stashed in the cars well later they matched his fingerprints to a thumbprint left and Gary Henman's house. The officers arrested Bobby Lobby and he was charged with murder. When Charles heard about the arrest he was worried bobby? Mike confessed to everything implicating the family in the murder murder but he was also upset. The Henman's murder had it made more of an impact he had hoped to spark a media frenzy thou would initiate the coming race war so as family discussed how to deal with Bobby's of rest Charles began to work out a new plan he wanted to stage an even and more brutal murder one so shocking it would make headlines around the country Charles was sure that such an event would be enough to trigger helter skelter and as a bonus it might help bobby beausoleil. The family thought if more murders were committed while bobby was in in custody it would prove that the police had arrested the wrong man and he would be let go on the night of August eighth nineteen sixty nine Charles took family member Tex Watson aside and told him what needed to be done a year earlier when Charles was cozying up to every music industry contact attack that would tolerate him. He had pursued a relationship with music producer Terry Melcher at the time Melcher lived in a secluded house on Cielo drive live even though Melcher had moved out of the house some months before Charles reason that whoever lived there now must also be rich and famous anyone anyone who lived in a place like that must be the kind of high profile person whose death would make national news according to Charles's plan tax and a few of the family women would go to Cielo drive break into the house and murder them in his research. Stephen Harrison stated that in the most destructive colts psychological influence seeks to disrupt an individual's identity personal behavior thoughts emotions and reconstructed in the image of the leader Tex Watson win later say that he accepted Charles's plan without an argument because Manson slaw law was greater than his own conscience Charles recruited more followers to help tax twenty one year old Susan Atkins Twenty one year old Pat Krenwinkel and twenty year old Linda Ca Sabin he instructed them to obey any command techs gave but didn't tell them the goal of the mission as they got into the car. Charles called out do something witchy it was a code to replicate Gary Henman's murder and the political piggy Hegi message bobby had scrawled on the wall just after midnight on August ninth nineteen sixty nine the family arrived at the House on Cielo Drive Dr Texts instructed the women to climb over the fence once they were on the grounds techs told them the plan kill anyone they found inside coming up. We'll talk about the infamous murder spree of August ninth eighth and Tenth Nineteen Sixty nine. Have you heard about Fab fit fun. It's a women's lifestyle subscription option box filled with full-size premium beauty lifestyle fitness home and tech products and it sent right to your door with the seasonal must haves. You need need when my first facet fun box arrived. It felt like a friend had sent me a Christmas gift. All of the items are wrapped beautifully and you get to see what each product is like like based on the magazine that is included in the box. 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The new podcast original con artists dived into the psychology the of hustlers swindlers and fraudsters to share with you the greatest cons of all time con artists come from different walks of life and we cover cover all of them. They're no founder and C._E._O.. Elizabeth Holmes grew her company to a value of nine billion dollars. Despite the fact that its its flagship technology did not work Jordan Belfort also known as the wolf of Wall Street partied hard and made millions while engaging and stock doc market manipulation and Bernie Madoff Atop Wall Street market maker who operated one of the biggest Ponzi schemes of all time conning thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars spot the con- before it finds you listened to con artists search for and subscribe to con artist on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash con artists to listen now and be sure to stick around after this show to hear a clip of the first episode of Con Artists Now back to the story story just after midnight on August Ninth Nineteen sixty-nine Tex Watson Season Atkins Pat Krenwinkel and Linda Kosabe Ian drove through Benedict Canyon until they reached the house at one. Oh Five Oh Cielo drive once they got their techs gave the women the order he had received from Charles Charles Manson they were to break in and kill everyone inside after Melchior moved out thirty five year old director Roman Polanski and his wife Twenty six year old actress Sharon Tate rented the House that night Polanski was not home he was filming filming a movie in Europe but pregnant tate just two weeks away from her due date had stayed behind in Los Angeles another couple also resided the house a longtime friend of Polanski's thirty two year old Vojtech Frankowski and his girlfriend twenty five year old Abigail soldier the pair had moved in to keep sharing company before the birth on that August night Sharon had another visitor her close friend and hairstylists thirty five year old J. C. bring in addition to the main house. The property also had a smaller guest cottage. The property caretaker nineteen year old William Garretson lived in the cottage that night he had a friend over eighteen year old student. Steve Parent parent was just leaving the property around twelve fifteen a m on August ninth. When the family members heard Steve Parents car coming toward them down the driveway they hid in some bushes but as a car stopped at the front gate techs emerged holding his gun the teenager implored please? Please don't hurt me. I'm I'm your friend. I won't tell TEX ignored him. He sliced parents arm with a knife and then shot him for times. Steve Parents slumped over in the front seat dead the group pause to see if the gunfire had alerted the residents of the home but the surrounding canyons muffled the sound Texan the women continued on to the main house techs found in open window leading into the Frans Hall after slicing open the screen he told Linda to stay and keep lookout while the rest went inside in the Living Room Tex Susan in an pat found boy tech break Hausky asleep on the couch. Frankowski woke up and ask them what they wanted. Techs replied. I'm the the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business then he kicked by house-key in the head rendering him barely conscious textile the women to check the rest of the house. They found Abigail folder Sharon tate and J. C.. Bring in the bedrooms brandishing their knives. They ordered everyone to the living room. Once their tax tied up the men Jay and the still dazed for a house-key <music> Sharon tate started to cry J. shouted. Can't you see she's pregnant. As soon as Jay spoke techs tax shot him in the abdomen text demanded all the money the hostages had folder revealed that she had about seventy dollars in her purse. It's about five hundred dollars today. Tate explained that she didn't have any money in the house but she could get some knowing that Charles would be upset that if they returned to spawn ranch without much cash tex became angry J._c.. Bring grown in writhe on the floor from his gunshot that wound Tex world on him and stabbed him until he died when tate and folger's screamed in Horror Vojtech for Hausky awoke from his stupor and struggle to untie his own hands Susan Atkins leapt at him and stabbed his legs tex turned the gun on him and began to shoot but he somehow managed to break free and limped outside techs quickly caught up with him. Frankowski died with two bullet wounds Jones and fifty one stab wounds Linda. K._C._B._S. was still outside keeping lookout when they had set out that evening she thought they were going on another another creepy crawling mission not a murder spree as soon as she saw tax shoot Steve Parent she had entered a state of shock. Now she made an attempt to end the gory scene she shouted. Please make it stop people are coming but nobody was coming and tax did not stop Linda gave up she decided to hop the fence. Get away from the property and wait by their car. As for a house-key died on the Front Lawn Abigail soldier tried to break away she also tried to escape across the yard but Pat Krenwinkel in lingle caught up with her and stabbed her when tex trotted over he pointed path towards the guest cottage and told her to look inside and kill anyone one there at seemed shaken after stabbing Bolger and she only pretended to check the guest cottage telling tax at the house was empty. If the caretaker William Garretson was awake he didn't give any sign to reveal himself techs. Meanwhile continued stabbing Abigail folder later. He claimed she told him as she died. I give up. You've got me finally the murderers turned into pregnant Sharon Tate Tate Beg them to spare her. She pleaded with them to kidnap her and keep her alive just long enough to deliver her baby. The family ignored her. Susan Atkins held the sobbing woman while Tex stabbed her sixteen times when she was dead. Susan dipped a towel in her blood and wrote the worth Hig on the front door with their mission accomplished. The group left the property techs. Susan and Pat Join Linda a car and drove away when they got back to the ranch inch Charles was eager to hear about the crime in fact he wanted to see it for himself to make sure it was gruesome enough to attract media attention then he drew back to the House himself that night and made small adjustments wanting to make the crime scene as bizarre and shocking as possible he placed the towel over Jaycee brings head. He draped an American flag over Sharon Tate's body. He moved a pair of glasses to the living room when when he was finished he drove back to spahn ranch and went to bed the next Lisa also found a number of recreational drugs in the House M._D._a.. A- sheesh and marijuana perhaps the murders were the result of a drug deal L. gone bad back at spahn ranch. Susan Techs and Pat Watch the news and basked in the attention. Their crimes had received Charles wasn't satisfied. None of the reports blamed the deaths on the Black Panthers nor do they link the debts to Gary Henman's murder. The tate murders wouldn't clear Bobby Beausoleil. 's name nor would they begin helter skelter so Charles decided that more people had to the die this time it wouldn't simply issue orders from the ranch. He intended to oversee the killings himself. Charles gathered rather the same group he'd sent to Ceelo Dr Techs Susan Pat and Linda no one had told Charles that Linda ran away during during the previous night's murders and she was too afraid to object when Charles selected her for a second journey Charles also brought Nineteen Year Roll Leslie Van Houten an eighteen year old clem Grogan the group dressed in dark clothes and gathered their knives then they set out into the tonight Charles directed them to a neighborhood in Los Feliz and told them to stop next door to a house the family had been to before for parties. He's but the friend had moved out the previous fall and no one was sure why Charles pick this target he in Tex- gone out of the car and entered entered through an unlocked back door inside forty four year old Lino Lobby Yongfu and his wife thirty eight year old rosemary were asleep Lino you know in Rosemary were not rich celebrities. He ran a chain of grocery stores and she owned a dress shop. They were a well liked upper middle class couple. They had no connections to Manson or the family. When Charles Tex went into the house they found Lino Asleep on the couch? When he awoke Charles Order a text to tie the man's hands behind his back with some leather ropes he brought from the ranch Charles went into the bedroom brought out Rosemary Harry and sat her next to her husband then he retrieved pat and Leslie from the car he told techs make sure everybody he does something before? Leaving Charles Stole Rosemary's Wallet Techs put a pillowcase over Leena La Bianca as head and wrapped a lamp record around the man's neck and mouth he instructed pat and Leslie to take Rosemary into the bedroom and do the same thing to her when when they were out of sight Tech Stab Lino with a bayonet from the bedroom rosemary screamed. What are you doing to my husband? She tried to run to Lino but the lamp cords wrapped around her neck or still plugged into the wall as Rosemary strained against the cords. Pat Pat stabbed her with a kitchen knife. Then Tex came in to complete the job with his bayonet when Rosemary was dead tax return to the Living Room stabbed Lino a few more times and carved the word war into the man's stomach pat stuck an ivory handled carving fork fork in his body. They went back to the bedroom. Were techs instructed Leslie to Stab Rosemary's body following Charlie's command that everyone participate when they were finished they use blood to write messages on the wall in the living room they wrote wrote rise and death to pigs in the kitchen on the refrigerator door. Pat wrote helter skelter misspelled spelled H. E. A. L. T. R. AS TEX PAT and Leslie followed followed Charles's orders Charles led the rest of the Women Linda Clem and Susan to a denny's restaurant instill mar he told Linda Delete Rosemary's wallet and the restaurant bathroom he expected a black woman to find the wallet steal the credit cards inside and then be blamed for the law Bianca's murderer's then Charles asked them who else they might kill Charles recalled Linda telling him about a Lebanese actor named salad natter whom she met while panhandling Linda had gone back to the actors home in Santa Monica to have sex Charles asked if Linda remembered the building where the actor lived windass said yes but when Charles handed her a knife and told her she was going to find matter and slit his throat. Linda balked the bloody events of the previous night had sickened her and she did not want to be a part of more violence. She said I'm not you Charlie. Dan Charles ignored her. He needed as many notorious deaths as possible to ignite helter skelter he dropped the family members off in front front of the actor's apartment and told Linda to lead Susan and Clem to the actors door where they would kill him. Then Charles drove away way back to spawn ranch. Linda pretended to obey Charles but she purposefully took Susan and Clem to the wrong unit when a stranger answered the door. Linda backed away and told the family that she didn't remember where natter lived the group hitchhiked back to spawn on and nobody discussed what had happened. The following evening Rosemary Labianca fifteen year old son frank came home. I'm from staying at a friend's house when his mother and stepfather didn't answer the door. Frank called his twenty one year old sister Suzanne and Suzanne's boyfriend Joe Dorgan the three entered the house where they found Rosemary and Lino Bianca dead the immediately called the police when journalists I got a hold of the story they noticed the similarities between the crime scene at Cielo drive and the Law Bianca residents police however were skeptical optical Leena La Bianca had some gambling debts and investigators thought he might build some money to members of the mafia although it seemed as if if the family had gotten away with murder Charles worried about Bobby Beausoleil who was still being held for Gary Henman's death and who might confess and point like the police to Charles at any moment the week after the murders Charleston Linda Kosabe into visit Bobby in jail and give him a message to stay quiet quiet. Linda happily took her assignment Linda K._C._B._S. in skin crawl the she thought about her naievety say she had left an unhappy marriage to join the family because she thought she might find higher love with Charlie and his women she felt disgusted gusted by what she knew now the family had nothing to do with love they were just mindless robots controlled by a Madman Linda would give anything to Undo the Knights of August ninth and tenth but her only option was to move forward she had had to get out only one thing was stopping Linda from deserting the family and never looking back her young daughter. Tanya UH lived at spahn ranch to limit desperately trying to think of a way to take Tanya without raising Charlie suspicions but it it was hopeless she knew Charlie would never let them leave together. If she tried Charlie might kill her and then Tanya would be stuck with the family family forever. Leaving Tanya was the hardest thing Linda had ever done but she knew that it was the only way to get help she had had to do it to save them. Both with her decision made Linda borrowed a car and meet a show of leaving to visit Bobby at the Los Angeles Louis County jail but instead of driving south she went east. Her heart broke as the mile stretched between her and Tanya but she she willed herself to keep going. She had to reach her husband Bob in New Mexico then she would tell him everything. After after Linda reunited with her husband she told him about the murderers but she was too afraid to go to the police worried the family might hurt her daughter. She was anxious to that. The family might try to come after her but by then Charles was too busy to pursue an insubordinate family member he was hard at work preparing his followers further move to the desert coming coming up. We'll talk about the fracturing of the family in Death Valley and how the groups breakdown helped investigators and prosecutors make their case against Charles Manson now the conclusion of the story in late August of nineteen sixty nine Charles Manson decided it was time for helter skelter to begin he ordered some of his most loyal followers to carry out a series of brutal murders on August ninth and tenth killing seven people not long after the murders spawn ranch was raided by police. It had nothing to do with the tate or lobby on the murders. Police suspected the group was operating an auto theft ring on the property they had been stealing Dune buggies and motorcycles our cycles in preparation for their trek to the desert and had actually previously been rated for similar suspicions. Police took some of the family members into to custody but the charges were dropped within days for lack of evidence. Although they released the adult family members they placed the family children including Linda CA sapiens daughter Tanya into foster care when Lyndon discovered this she returned to l._a.. County to regain custody over the girl but she did not reveal anything about the murders back at the ranch Charles remained anxious about the police's raid he thought it might be a signal that someone was spilling family secrets. He blamed Donald Shorty Shea an employee of the ranch owner short he didn't care for the families presence at at the ranch and he often advised his boss to kick them out given his animosity towards Charles Short. He made a convenience ape goat some night in late August about two weeks. After the Tate Murders Charles Bruce Davis and Clem Grogan took shorty shea out into into the desert and killed him with a Stun Charles decided it was time to retreat to Death Valley National Park hundreds of miles away from civilization to wait out the coming race Horse Charles most ardent followers were thrilled that they were finally going to escape into the pit Charles had prophesied they believed that once they were inside the pit they would go through metamorphosis and take whatever form they desired but they had to locate the pit before this could happen when they reached the desert. Charles ordered them to go on daily excursions in search of the whole that would lead them to the pit each night when they returned from day of searching exhausted they would gather around a fire her take hits of acid and listen to Charles preaching about helter skelter and their new life Sharon Kay Farber a counselor with a p._H._d.. In in social work said that colts prey upon the tendency of many to rely on magical thinking which reinforces the tendency to endow the leader with omnipotent patent and magical powers the member can readily come to believe that the leader can read his mind or hear conversations at a distance many many of Charles's followers were desperate for Charles's predictions to come true they had joined Charles in the first place to escape their empty lives and now they wanted to escape from reality itself but for the family members who were not quite sold on Charles is apocalyptic predictions life even death valley was a difficult adjustment. There was no electricity or telephones they were constantly running low on food and supplies and the daily expeditions to find the pit or brutal in the desert heat as morale dropped Tex Watson grew frustrated every day. The Group failed to find the pit techs grew more doubtful of Charles claims confused and depressed. He began to fervently Ervin. Lee wished that he could erase his life with the family. After a few weeks he left the Wchs Department these suspicions lead Park Rangers and the California Highway Patrol to pay the family visit they found stolen cars including in makeshift armored vehicles with scampered to hold weapons. The officer suspicions of the Strange Group deepened on October tenth the park service a highway patrol and Inyo County Sheriff's department raided the property authorities made over a dozen arrests but they did not locate Charles by by chance he had gone back to Los Angeles a day before to try to raise some extra money and replenish their food stash Charles returned to death valley as soon as she heard about the raid perhaps panicked at the thought of his followers in custody and what they might be telling the gleese he wanted to be physically close to <unk> them while he figured out how to regain control immediately after Charles's return. The authorities raided the desert ranch again this time as California Highway Patrolman James Pursell meet a sweep inside the House he found a lit candle flickering on the table and he knew that someone must must be home herself searched the bathroom right before his eyes the door of a small cabinet by the sinks Longo been and Charles Charles Manson emerged herself said if you make one false move I'll blow your head off to which Charles replied applied. I Charles was arrested and brought to a jail in Inyo county along with the rest of the family. Once serious interogations began everything started to unravel twenty year old kitty lead singer who was pregnant with Bobby Beausoleil as baby and frustrated that she was being kept in the dark told the police everything she heard about Gary Henman's murder she also told them she had heard Susan Atkins bragging being about stabbing a man in the legs she assumed Susan was talking about Henman but he hadn't been stabbed in the legs the attack she described fit another crime better the murder of Vojtech Reich Hausky at Sharon Tate's house investigators questioned Susan who corroborated the story story admitting that she had been present for Henman's murder. Susan was subsequently booked for murder and moved to a women's prison and Los Angeles County any Susan spend the next few weeks bragging to other inmates that she had been part of the Tate Murders John R Schaffer a behavioral analyst list for the F._B._i.. Says this behavior is common stating when criminals commit crimes they feel an overwhelming need to tell someone what they dead especially if the crime required skill and cunning criminals crave recognition for their nefarious deeds Susan's fellow uh-huh inmates reported her statements to authorities while investigators were linking the family to the tate and Hinman murderers they also discovered evidence of Charles's is involvement in the lobby bianca murders the leather material of Charles's deer skin suit matched the leather ropes used to tie the hands of Rosemary and Lino Lino Lubyanka in the previous months police had conducted three separate murder investigations without seeing a link between them now <hes> with the Manson family in custody. The connections between the Tate Labianca and Henman murders were staring them in the face now that the police had found the perpetrators of the murders prosecutor Vinson Bouillaud see began to build his case against Charles he would have to rely on witness MS testimony and for this he would need to convince some of the family members to let go of their devotion to and fear of their leader breaking breaking Charles's hold over the family was a difficult process psychologist and cold expert. Margaret Singer stated that the idea of leaving a colt is often unbearable for participants. She says there is a psychological bond that becomes most difficult to sever. Perhaps Charles Charles's most bonded and devout follower was Susan Atkins who had been present for all the bloody crimes. Susan Atkins ends. I'd the prosecutors sitting across from her. He was trying to question her but it was hard to focus on him. She had to stay alert and case Charlie. We tried to send a message to her. The lawyers kept telling her that Charlie was far away in jail in Inyo County but Susan knew that Charlie was everywhere he was watching her now. You would know if Susan betrayed him. Her lawyer told her that the prosecutors accusers wanted her to testify against Charlie. He told her that if she didn't cooperate prosecutors would push for the death penalty but Susan understood what her lawyers did not death was meaningless. Only the spirit mattered and the spirit lived forever. That's what Charlie had taught her. Susan Atkins belief in Charles was unwavering but she seemed to enjoy talking about the murderers lawyers convinced her to testify in front of a grand jury in Los Angeles. Susan explained how Charles had programmed the family to do things and gave detailed descriptions of their crimes. Susan didn't seem to realize that she was incriminating Charles. She saw her her testimony. As an opportunity to proselytize about Charles's godlike powers the grand jury panel issued indictments on seven counts of murder her and one count of conspiracy to commit murder against Charles Manson Tex Watson Susan Atkins Linda Ca Sapien and Patricia Krenwinkel Leslie Van Houten was indicted on two counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. The trial began in the summer of nineteen seventy although she had testified in front of the Grand Jury Susan Atkins Refuse to testify for the prosecution at trial now now she claimed that Charles was innocent and that the family had acted alone without his help or influence but prosecutors had other witnesses to counter counter this they arranged deal with Linda Kosabe Ian who had accompanied the family on the murder missions but refused to kill anyone. Linda was granted granted immunity in exchange for her testimony. The prosecutors also secured the testimony of former family member Barbara Hoyt who had walked sixteen hours through the desert to escape them testifying against a family proved to be risky prior to the trial a family member approach Barbara era pretending to renew their friendship but then proceeded to poison Barbara with ten tabs of L._S._D.. When Barbara recovered from the overdose she was more determined than ever to testify although prosecutors manage to turn some family members into cooperative witnesses most of them remained under Charles's spell fame social psychologist Leon festinger studied similar behavior in nineteen fifties UFL Colt festinger linger noted that when the Colt Leaders Doomsday Prophesy failed the cult members became more committed rather than less festinger attributed this to cognitive dissonance writing that a person can distort her perception and the information about the world around her in order to protect her convictions during the Manson trial several of the family women gathered outside the courthouse every day singing and chanting for crowds of onlookers inside the courtroom courtroom Charles tried to disrupt the trial with a variety of antics including carving a small X. in his forehead just above his eyebrows he arrange for a family member to pass out a written statement outside the courthouse it read I have exed myself from your world? No Man or lawyer lawyer is speaking for me. I speak for myself. I am not allowed to speak with words so I have spoken with the Mark I will be wearing on my forehead forehead after he did this. The family woman appeared at the courthouse with X.'s gouged into their foreheads but the trial move forward as scheduled on March twenty ninth nineteen seventy one the jury returned a guilty verdict Charles Manson and Susan Atkins at Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten were sentenced to die in the Gas Chamber Tex Watson had a separate retrial was convicted in October of nineteen seventy one and also sentenced to death but before these sentences were carried readout California's Supreme Court voted to abolish the death penalty in nineteen seventy two Charles remained infamous in prison attracting attracting notoriety in part due to the devotion of his followers in nineteen seventy five family member Lynette squeaky Kief Romi attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford Secret Service tackled her before she could shoot Charles might not have ordered himself but many speculate that Lynette did it to impress him. She was sentenced to life in prison for the assassination attempt and paroled in two two thousand nine in recent two thousand nineteen interview. She confessed that she was still in love with Manson other followers. I did not remain faithful. Susan Atkins eventually renounced Charles and converted to Christianity. She died of cancer in two thousand eight after nearly three decades in prison Tex Watson Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten have also expressed the repudiation of Charles Charles they remain in prison today and have so far been denied parole. Charles Manson died in prison and two thousand thousand seventeen at the age of eighty three but fifty years after the Manson families crimes people remain fascinated by the colts legacy. The Manson family came together at the height of a counterculture movement that encourage young people to reject convention question authority and an embrace the ideals of peace and love Charles Manson's brutal crimes effectively destroyed the spirit of the sixties as a world came came to associate the hippie lifestyle with the wave of crime and violence but if Charles Life shows anything it's that he did not need a Hippie ideology ideology or political agenda to inspire him to violence his militias behavior began long before the nineteen sixties Charles's cousin Joanne told the following story six years old first grade. He talked the girls in his class into to beating up other boys. He doesn't like then when the principal comes to ask Charlie. Why did you do that Charlie's responses? It wasn't me they were doing what they wanted. You can't blame me for that. Thirty years later he'd use the same defense with a new group of girls. Thanks again N. for tuning into our crimes of passion summer of sixty nine special if you enjoyed this episode checkout podcasts continued retrospective into the summer of Sixty Jeanine from July twenty second through August ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode of crimes of passion next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new are cast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have ask how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is still leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time when true love meets to crime crimes of passion was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media in this part of the podcast network. It is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler with sound design by Russell Nash Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley crimes of passion is written by Christina Panties. I'm leaning Hobbs now that this episode has finished. Here's the clip of our first episode of the park cast original con artists. It's about Bernie madoff a top Wall Street market maker who operated an elaborate Ponzi scheme and conned thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars search for and subscribe to con artist on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash con artists to listen

Martha Papa Charles Charles Manson Tex Watson Susa Gary Hinman murder Susan Atkins Gary Henman Charles Tex Linda Bobby Beausoleil Charles Charlie Sharon Tate Bobby beausoleil bobby Charles Lecture Charles Charles Charles Stole Rosemary Charles Guidance Leslie Van Houten
Summer of 69: The Manson Girls Pt. 2

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

42:55 min | 1 year ago

Summer of 69: The Manson Girls Pt. 2

"Due to the graphic nature of these women's crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder violence and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen gene. Linda CA Sabin walked down the hall to adore she had seen only once before in her hand. The wooden handle a knife grew hot and slippery as her poems began Dan to sweat last week she had met a new friend and actor who had moved to Hollywood to make it big she had liked the man she'd happily gone back to his apartment thrilled at how well the two of them got along she had wanted to return and now here she was although the circumstances had changed. Charlie wanted her to get her hands dirty. All of his followers had to be a part of helter skelter together. She gripped the knife tighter heider and wrapped on the door. She heard footsteps approaching on the other side. She looked down the hallway to her family. Members Susan Atkins and Clem Grogan. They stared back eager. Charlie had ordered a bloodbath and Charlie Manson always got what he wanted picture a murderer a- gangster a thief. Did you picture a woman. We didn't think so society associates men with dangerous crimes but what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday Wednesday we examine the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals hi I'm Sammy Ni- and I'm Vanessa Richardson and you're listening to female criminals apar- cast original this week near the fifty fifty year anniversary of the infamous Manson family murders on August ninth and Tenth Nineteen Sixty Nine we finish our coverage of the women who fell into the Manson family and carried out murders in their leaders name. This episode is part of podcasts summer of sixty nine event July twenty second through August ninth. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer bummer of Nineteen sixty-nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing were diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into into the fallout of M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Colt and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts podcasts at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help last week we met the women who became infamous for their air part in the Manson family murders some of the most gruesome cold blooded acts of violence in American history. Those women were twenty one year old Susan Atkins nineteen-year-old Leslie Van Houten Twenty One year old Patricia Krenwinkel Twenty Year Old Linda Kosabe Ian Twenty six year old Catherine Gypsy share and twenty year old Lynette squeaky from me. We detailed their sorted childhoods which left these women feeling neglected unloved and susceptible to the charms of sociopath Charles Manson by July of Nineteen sixty-nine. All five of these women were deep within Manson's fold and considered some of his most ardent followers Leslie van Houten has since described the impassioned sermons Charles Manson gave his family to prepare them for an oncoming race war called helter skelter. He represented himself as more divine than human calling himself off the son of man he believed he was both Jesus and the devil in one person and his followers accepted it wholeheartedly. The Manson family spent the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine preparing for the race war that Charlie believed would burn Los Angeles to the ground but when it failed to arrive he decided it was time to spark the war himself. This week will follow the chilling murders that made the Manson family notorious area once Manson realized his followers would kill for him. He made a plan to put helter skelter into motion by the time Gary Henman was murdered in late July of nineteen sixty nine Charles Charles Manson or Charlie as he was known around Spun Ranch had already plunged the families free love rhetoric in too much darker waters and largely because his followers were on a steady diet of pot l._S._d.. mescaline and a myriad of other drugs that have since fallen out of fashion they were overly susceptible to his ranting Vanessa's Gwen to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode just a Reminder Vanessa is neither a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist Trista. She has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy as reported by Shanna Freeman and Nathan Chandler with how stuff works trace amounts of l._S._D.. Stay in a person system for weeks after a trip and while a person will begin begin to hallucinate on just point two five micrograms of L._S._D.. The average user in the nineteen sixties took four times that amount and considering the fact that the Manson family was partying on a nightly basis. The L._S._D.. Had No chance of ever fully leaving their system L._S._D.. Trips can last twelve hours which means they spent almost every waking Moment High Katrin propeller a researcher on a recent study conducted at the University Hospital for for Psychiatry in Zurich explained that typically our brains constantly filter out information that it does not think we need. She says the world around us is not the world we perceive because the Dallas filters out would it considers to be irrelevant information. We don't necessarily perceive all there is because that would be an overload of information but prowlers team hypothesized that L._S._d.. Caused the Salomon's to stop filtering out that the extra information l._S._D.. Causes Parts of the brain that typically have nothing to do with vision to begin contributing to what a user sees. This is what causes the hallucinations L._S._D.. Users report all of this extra information it provides for a very trippy experience one that filters away any sense of reality especially when used on a daily basis in short the Manson family literally lost touch with reality through their constant drug use making making them overly susceptible to Charlie's prophetic rantings throughout the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine he was able to scare his followers into believing that helter skelter was on their doorstep Charlie even recruited crude a local biker gang the straight Satan's to act as his army when helter skelter broke out he recruited them the same way he got everything he wanted by pimping out his female followers and providing the gang with mountains of drugs rugs and free booze. It's hard to say whether the straight Satan's actually believed they might be called upon to fight for Manson or if they just knew a free party when they saw one in addition to recruiting the straight Satan's titans Manson stockpiled rifles and guns and taught his followers how to use them in one particularly chilling interview squeaky foamy flanked by two other followers showed a journalist how to load a rifle full. She told them she was able to shoot anyone at any time because she had no fear Charlie she said had taken all the fear so that she didn't need to carry it. She wasn't alone in that feeling on July. Twenty any seven nineteen sixty nine Charlie ordered Bobby Beausoleil to murder his friend and musician Gary Henman at Henman's cabin into Panga Canyon at Charlie's behest Bobby wrote political piggy on the wall of Henman's cabin in blood he also used blood to draw a pop print in the hopes of associating the murder with the Black Panthers Charlie hoped that when news broke that the Black Panthers had murdered a white man in cold blood God racial tension would skyrocket this would finally start the race war that would burn L._A.. To the ground but much to his dismay the police were slow to assume the black panthers were involved instead they took note of Henman's missing car and collected the bloody fingerprints left all over the crime scene yet as much as police didn't immediately suspect the Black Panthers. Nobody seemed to have any leads on who committed the murderers either except one person kitty loot singer a Manson family member and bobby boasts delays girlfriend her testimony cracked the case Wide Open Kitty had no idea that bobby was involved and with a murder but by July thirtieth she hadn't seen him in days and she was getting worried. The rhetoric on spawn ranch was growing darker apocalyptic even and she no longer believed that any of them were safe that day day Kitty reported her suspicion that Charles Manson was dangerous to the police then went into hiding on her parents ranch but unfortunately the police never took her concerns about Manson seriously a. A few days later on August Sixth Bobby was spotted driving Gary Henman's missing car he was arrested and taken into the station for questioning after he was booked and fingerprinted police found the knife used to kill L. Henman in the backseat of his car. A short interrogation proved bobby a terrible liar. He was charged with murder when word of Bobby's arrest hit spun ranch Charles Manson went into panic mode he always liked bobby. He wasn't particularly bright and generally went along with whatever Charlie said perfect qualities in a follower but now charlie was worried that bobby would crack under pressure or O._B.. Tricked into confessing he might even name Charlie as a CO conspirator and Gary Henman's murder over the next two days Charlie grew increasingly agitated and walked around spawn ranch with a temper finally Catherine Brin Gypsy share the maternal figure of the family asked him if everything was okay and he snapped he dragged her outside and punched her knocking her to the ground then kicked her repeatedly the other followers watched watched in horror but new not to intervene better to let Charlie take out his aggression on someone else Charlie finally relented when Gypsy spit out blood and left her in a heap in the dirt he threatened into kill any member that tried to leave then retreated into his cabin. Charles Manson had grown wild and unpredictable the fun loving charismatic spirit that had drawn his thirty two followers to the ranch was gone that they realized was the part of Charlie inhabited by Jesus now they were seeing the Devil Charlie was unraveling. He knew he needed to create a distraction to throw the heat off. Bobby and the rest of the Manson crew helter skelter needed to start. He knew the world around him was ready to snap. It just needed a little push in a moment. The Manson family takes an infamous trip into Los Angeles Hi there if you enjoy this episode on the women of the Manson family search female criminals on spotify and give us a follow to find more episodes episodes now back to the story the morning of August Eighth Nineteen sixty-nine was dry an unusually cool considering it was the height of summer on spawned ranch. The tension was building as twenty one year old Bobby Beausoleil sat in prison for the murder of Gary Henman Charles Manson now thirty four worried that bobby would send the police after the family as the day went on. Nobody saw Charlie the rest of the family tried to avoid him knowing he was on edge then as the sun began to set twenty four year old Tex Watson approached a few of the girls and told them to get into the car they were headed into town on a mission for Charlie. Linda Ca Sabin Twenty Patricia Krenwinkel twenty and Susan Atkins twenty-one followed him without question. The girls assumed they were going on a creepy crawly. When members of the family broke into homes late at night and committed petty theft before they left the ranch techs handed the girls speed capsules? They took the pills then set off off Linda for her part was thrilled. She didn't like stealing but she was excited. That Charlie had chosen her by name for a mission. It was a sign of approval from a man she desperately wanted to please that that need for approval was what kept Manson's followers on the ranch even more so than Charlie's death threats the nineteen sixty three mill grim shock experiment studied are susceptibility to authority figures. The study was originally conducted to determine how likely it was that Nazi war criminals were truly just following orders in the experiment participants were instructed to deliver small electrical shocks to another subject at the instruction of a man in a white doctors code holding a clipboard in truth. The shocks were a ruse. No one in the study was harmed but with each shock the subject reacted as if they were truly being electrocuted you did at first the shocks were light but they became increasingly more painful causing the subject to scream in agony when the participant delivering the shocks questioned whether or not to keep going the man in the white coat Said said please continue eventually the participants believed they were delivering lethal shocks but the man and the white coat assured them d experiment requires that you continue so they kept going every single participant allow themselves to be pushed far beyond a reasonable breaking point before saying no sixty five percent of participants never stopped delivering shocks until they were told the subject was is dead Milligram wrote in his paper titled The perils of Obedience Stark Authority was pitted against the participants strongest moral imperatives against hurting others and with the participants ears ringing with the screams of the victims of authority one more often than not the extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any links on the command of authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently urgently demanding explanation to the Manson Women Charlie was the ultimate authority and they would follow any of his commands most ardently after all they had sacrificed a great deal to be part of this family as the car wound through the Canyon leading to Los Angeles in the early morning hours of August ninth nineteen sixty nine. Linda felt a growing prick of excitement it had been weeks and she'd been selected for creepy crawly. She wanted to bring back something special for Charlie to prove herself texts wove through Los Angeles and up into Beverly Hills. They drove past lavish homes. Finally me pulling up in front of one. Oh Five Oh Cielo drive the home was set back from the road but they could see the warm lamplight from the living room coming through the trees techs hopped out of the car and and cut the telephone line to the House with wire-cutters then he motioned for Linda Patricia and Susan to follow him. They got out of the car unsure of what they were doing at the house. Linda didn't question why techs I had a rope and a gun with him. They walked to the back of the property scaled offense and crept through the trees bushes that Phil Yard but they stopped short at bright headlights coming up the long driveway texts motioned for the girls to get down as he stepped onto the driveway and waved down the car when it stopped he fired four bullets through the passenger side window killing the driver. Stephen Parent Linda was stunned texts forced her to steal the drivers wallet her hands shook as she reached into the dead man's pocket then techs told her to go to the back of the house and act as a lookout while well he Susan and Patricia made their way to the front of the House. When the trio reappeared in the backyard they each brandished knives? Linda watched in horror as techs cut a long slow slit into the screen screen door still in shock she stayed in the backyard as the others disappeared inside in the Living Room Twenty six year olds Sharon tate who was eight months pregnant was is hosting a small get together with friends. Tate was a stunningly beautiful up and coming Starlit who was looking forward to becoming a first time parent with her husband Roman Polanski around the coffee table were her friends Jay. Sebring a famous hairdresser in Tate's former boyfriend Vojtech for Hausky a friend of Polanski's who was staying with the couple while in town and Abigail full jer heir to the folger's coffee fortune the foursome went silent as they stared at the three young adults to adjust crashed into their living room. The intruders just stood there for a moment before text took the rope off his shoulder and ordered the foursome to huddle together in the living room he then took the rope and looped it around all four of their necks throwing the end over a beam running across the ceiling he pulled on the rope until it was taught binding the captives together. Tate folder seib ring and Frankowski stayed silent and cooperated hoping that the three lunatics would rob them and go away but that hope quickly faded when texts bellowed. You're all going to die. Sharon tate let out a blood-curdling scream that Linda could here in the backyard in the chaos text. Let the rope slacken and the four captives freed themselves and tried to scatter though they didn't get far tech Heck Shot J._C.. Bring who fell to the ground he then shot for a cow ski twice and hit him over the head with the butt of his gun thirteen times then he turned back to the wounded see bring and stabbed him to death. Both Susan Atkins meanwhile closed in on Sharon tate. She pleaded for her life but Susan showed her no mercy she stabbed Sharon Sixteen Times and briefly considered cutting the baby. Maybe out of her stomach. Patricia chased Abigail Bolger around the living room. Delivering a few blows with a knife before Abigail escaped down the hallway. Frankowski miraculously still alive crawled towards. It's the sliding glass door and got to his feet shaking. He stumbled out into the backyard where he ran into Linda who was beside herself with terror. In a later interview. Linda recalled looking into his eyes and watching the life leave them. She knew he was dying and didn't know how to stop it. Linda and Frankowski stood there both gasping for air unable to form words until he finally limped past her and collapsed in the yard seconds later techs came running out of the sliding glass door jumped on Frckoski and stabbed him again and again fifty one times in total hodel meanwhile inside the House Abigail folder made a break for it and ran into the side yard with Patricia hot on her trail folder dizzy from blood loss tripped on her dress and fell to her knees. He's folder screamed for her mother. As Patricia climbed on top of her and stabbed her twenty eight times Linda could hear Abigail Shrieking in Pain Patricia screaming and fury and the knife knife cutting into flesh over and over again it made her nauseous for a moment she thought about making a break for it running to a nearby house for help but she knew that wasn't an option the other three would find her and kill her along with anyone else she had spoken to so for lack of a better option. Linda went to the car and waited inside the house. What began as a horror show only became more gruesome? Susan Atkins dipped towel in Sharon's blood and wrote pig on the front door and death to pigs on the living room wall as tate lay dying the Manson family members rocked a rope rope around her neck and strong her up by the ceiling beam. She died of blood loss and strangulation. Her baby died fifteen minutes later. Finally Patricia Susan and tax came him tearing down the embankment. They piled into the car sweaty from exertion thrilled at the atrocities they just committed as they tore off their bloody clothes. Techs told Linda to drive he was furious. She hadn't participated in the murders. Patricia complained that she hurt her wrist. She worried she had strained it. While stabbing through Abigail folger's bones when they finally pulled back up to spawn ranch charlie came out to greet read them he asked if any of them had any remorse and without hesitation each of them including Linda responded no the next morning the tate families housekeeper walked in on the bloodbath at at one o o five. Oh ceelo drive she found Stephen Parents shot dead in his car abigail folder and Vojtech Hausky in the Yard J. C. Bring and Sharon Tate stabbed to death inside. It wasn't until the news broke on television that Linda Learn Sharon tate had been pregnant. The murders reverberated throughout Los Angeles. The only obvious motive seemed to be that the Polanski's in their friends were randomly targeted targeted for being affluent Hollywood types. The Los Angeles elite went into panic mode. Local shelters were overwhelmed by homeowners looking to adopt ferocious guard dogs calls flooded the police stations demanding demanding to know their plans to prevent another attack while the rest of Los Angeles grieved Charles Manson stewed he was proud that his followers had killed Sharon tate and her friends but found himself upset with how missy the job had been that afternoon he approached Linda Kosabe Ian and told her she would be driving them into town again that night. He was going with them this time he was going to show them how to make a clean kill. A few hours later on the night of August Tenth Nineteen Sixty Nine Linda Kosabe Ian Drove Charles Manson Patricia Krenwinkel Tex Watson Susan Susan Atkins Clem Grogan and Leslie van Houten down the long dirt road to Los Angeles they drove through the east side to the upscale Los feeless neighborhood and pulled up in front of thirty three. Oh One waverly waverly drive. Linda braced herself. Yesterday's nightmare was about to repeat in a moment the Manson family makes another attempt to ignite helter skelter now back to the story thirty four year old Charles Manson had a simple plan to ignite helter skelter and throw the heat off off Bobby Beausoleil who sat in jail awaiting a murder trial he instructed his family to murder L. as well to do and blame the crimes on the Black Panthers until eventually there would be riots on the streets. The country was a powder keg. It just needed a spark which is why on the night of August Tenth Nineteen sixty-nine. He piled into the car with twenty year old Linda Kosabe Ian Nineteen Year Old Leslie Van Houten Alton Twenty One year old Patricia Krenwinkel twenty one year old Susan Atkins Nineteen Year Old Clem Grogan and twenty four year old Tex Watson ready to kill in cold blood. They pulled up to the home of Lino Lino and Rosemary Labianca a successful grocery store chain owner and boutique owner respectively. Everyone waited in the car while Charles hopped the fence and snuck into the house he held the Law Bianca's has at knifepoint and tied their hands behind their backs. Then he came back out to the car and Directed Leslie Patricia and text to take care of them as they went inside Charlie hopped into the driver's seat and drove off with the other three accomplices inside the house. Another slaughter ensued Leslie Van Houten Stabbed Rosemary Labianca Forty One Times Patricia and tax took care of Lino leaving him with twenty six stab wounds police also found a knife and fork sticking out of his backside and the word war carved into his stomach after stabbing the lobbying youngest to death they threw pillowcases over the victims heads and wrapped a lamp court around both their necks just as they had done with the rope at the tape residents the night before again they wrote in blood all over the walls death to pigs helter skelter and the word rise then instead of fleeing the scene they took their time showering and fixing a meal in the kitchen before hitchhiking back to spawn ranch. Meanwhile Manson drove west with Susan Clem and Linda he was upset that Linda hadn't killed anyone the night before tonight she would prove her allegiance to helter skelter. Charlie drove the apartment building of the actor Linda had met on Venice beach. He gave her a knife and told her to slit the man's throat. Linda got out of the car and Susan and Clem followed her into the apartment. Building Manson drove off back to spawn ranch. Linda could hear her heart beating in her ears as she climbed the staircase her new friends apartment she didn't know what to do. She didn't want to kill anyone but she felt like she had no choice. Susan and Clem were close behind her. She could feel their bloodlust. The two of them were ready for murder. Linda wondered if they were jealous that they wouldn't be the ones to deliver for the fatal blow. As she stepped into the hallway. Her hands began to shake she felt clammy and cold time seemed to slow as she made her way to the door. She walked past her friend's apartment to the next door down and timidly she knocked an older man answered the door and stared at Linda expectantly. She swallowed hard. Her mouth felt dry. She backed up and turn to Susan and Clem explaining. That's not him wrong apartment. Susan and Clem looked genuinely disappointed. The three hitch hiked back to spawn ranch. Linda quietly wondered whether Charlie would kill her in her sleep the next morning when the news of the law bianca murders broke L._A.. was thrown into a frenzy Manson was sure this was the beginning of helter skelter. He waited it for news of riots in the streets but after a full day he was left disappointed Linda for her part feared the consequences of leaving Venice Beach unbloodied but when Manson finally came to her he told her are he had a new mission for her tomorrow she would go see Bobby Beausoleil in jail and find out what he planned to tell police. Linda agreed. She knew instantly that this was her ticket out of spawn ranch that night. She packed bag for herself and her daughter. She didn't sleep a wink. The next morning she woke up early and went to the cabin where the children were kept only to discover that they had been taken down to the freshwater her pool to play in the little waterfall nearby. It was then that Linda made the most difficult decision of her life. She knew that she couldn't grab her daughter without arousing suspicion. She was also sure that the family wouldn't hurt her child. Filed at least she prayed that was the case she grabbed her bag and keys and told Charlie she was going to see Bobby. She drove off the ranch and didn't stop until she reached New Mexico. When Linda didn't return that night it became clear that she had no intention of coming back but Manson likely felt that she would keep quiet to avoid being implicated in the murders? It certainly seems as though he was unconcerned turned the crimes of the Manson family continued as rapidly as ever a week after the first set of murders on August fifteenth the Manson family heard from an old friend Kitty loot route singer Bobby's girlfriend she wasn't getting along with her parents on their horse ranch and begged someone to come pick her up and bring her back to the family. Charlie was more than glad to bring her back into the fold especially with Bobby's arrest. He wanted his family as close as he could keep them the very next day August sixteenth spine ranch was raided by police not in connection to the murders but rather for car theft left several family members were arrested including kitty and the children on spun ranch were taken into state custody as a result Linda. Kosabe Ian was reunited with her daughter Tanya. She returned to L._A.. To grab her daughter than immediately took her back into hiding in New Mexico. Only police knew where Linda would be staying. The Manson family was soon released from police custody on technicality but after the close call they decided to fleece bond ranch they moved to death valley to a cabin called Barker Ranch Barker ranch was a rustic barebones cabin in the middle of nowhere belonging to the grandmother of one of the family only members it should have been the perfect place to hide out but even in that remote location Manson and his family managed to draw attention to themselves for one thing they were broke and had to resort to petty crime to make ends meat for another they made nonsensical drug-fuelled decisions that gave them away as troublemakers as one example they set fire to some equipment owned by National Park Service Rangers for no discernible reason the locals easily figured out that the wave of petty theft was connected to the cult that had moved in down the road and reported them to police but the true nail in the coffin came in early October of nineteen sixty nine after months of pleading Kitty finally convinced Susan to tell her why Bobby was being held by the police. Susan revealed everything about what had happened at Henman's cabin that summer Susan looked proud as she recounted the murder even laughing at parts it was that terrifying pride that pushed kitty over the edge on October ninth nineteen sixty nine kitty fled Barker ranch and went straight to the police over the next three days Barker ranch was rated multiple times in connection with stolen property leading to multiple arrests. Susan Atkins was also arrested in connection with the murder for of Gary Henman Amazingly. None of the raids led police to connect the Manson family to the tate labianca murders instead. It was Susan Atkins that gave the family away a few weeks after her arrest best. She bragged to her cellmate about killing Sharon tate. The cellmate routed atkins out without a second thought from there the rest of the family fell like dominoes by this point. Most of the family was already already in cuffs in connection to theft and the machinery fires. The police already had all their suspects in custody. They just needed to connect them to the murders. Thanks to fingerprints lifted from the scene. Leslie Techs and Patricia Tricia were charged with the law Bianca and tape murders in addition. Susan Atkins agreed to testify against the family members as a way of avoiding the death penalty. She later recanted her statement but it still gave gave police the necessary ammunition to round up the remaining suspects Clem Grogan Linda Kosabe Ian and Charles Manson himself Linda Kosabe IAN quickly agreed to testify against the family in exchange for community police were happy to work with her after realizing that she had tried to stay uninvolved with the murders and fled the family as soon as she was able would follow next was nothing short of a media circus August Charles Manson proved to be a charismatic engaging villain. The country watched in horror as his story unfolded the trials began on June fifteenth nineteen seventy and continued until late March march of the following year Manson was originally allowed to act as his own attorney although his increasingly defiant behavior quickly lost him that privilege throughout the trial he left the country spellbound as he went on Rant rant after nonsensical rant about the police his own divinity race wars murder love fear and death in fact Manson proved so colorful and captivating that he upstaged stage the victims slowly the press stopped calling them the tate and Law Bianca murders and instead referred to the crimes as the Manson family murders the unincorporated family members gathered outside the courthouse every day in support of their leader they sang songs and repeated nonsensical rhetoric. That sounded like it had come straight from Charlie's mouth reporters relaid this to Charlie asking if he'd brainwashed his followers I he replied quote these children that come at you with knives there your children you taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up but in fact the speeches the followers repeated were well rehearsed squeaky foamy visited Manson in prison every evening to get the script for the next day then dutifully delivered to the news reporters who all knew her by name squeaky became an overnight celebrity when Manson shaved his head in prison several family members followed suit one day he carved an ex into his forehead during the trial it was meant to symbolize allies having X. himself out of society. Several of his followers did the same they told reporters they had deleted themselves from mainstream culture. They were completely free. A word that was often associated did with the hippy movement. The Manson family is widely credited with killing Hippie counterculture even though they never considered themselves hippies their drug use and flower child aesthetic was enough for the mainstream to make the connection the friction inside and outside of the courtroom each day mirrored the violent demonstrations against the Vietnam War and the Kent State shootings that took place just days before Manson's trial began. The spirit of the sixties was dead a final victim of Charles Manson on April Nineteenth Nineteen seventy-one Manson was sentenced to death Patricia Techs. Susan Susan and Leslie were all sentenced to death as well but their sentences were commuted to life in prison the next year Linda Kosabe Ian is the only person present for the murders who served no jail time she was only with the Manson Manson family for four weeks and has spent the past fifty years in hiding Bobby Beausoleil is still in prison for Gary Henman's murder he has been denied parole eighteen times with little hope of ever being released SD Lynette squeaky from me was uninvolved in the Manson family murders but was a constant fixture outside the courthouse during the trials. She made headlines again in nineteen seventy five for the attempted assassination of President President Gerald Ford. She spent the next thirty four years in prison. After being paroled she moved to upstate New York where folks around her apartment complex say she is a model neighbor squeaky says she she has a boyfriend but will always love Charles Manson who died in two thousand seventeen at the age of eighty three the Manson family murders continue to reverberate and not just because of the grotesque task scenes left in their wake. They marked a moment in American culture. A microcosm of the political tension felt in every corner of the country. The loss of life was senseless. The violence was unfathomable. The tight-knit cult was nothing short of terrifying and yet like so many displays of human depravity. We find ourselves unable to look away ed thanks again for tuning into our female criminals summer of sixty-nine special. If you enjoyed this episode checkout par casts continued retrospective into in the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second until August ninth the summer of sixty nine will feature twenty-three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer. You're we'll be back with a new episode of female criminals next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you've asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Female Criminals was created.

Gary Henman Charles Manson Manson Charlie Stephen Parent Linda Susan Atkins murder Patricia Susan Bobby Beausoleil Sharon tate Clem Grogan Gary Henman Charles Manson Linda Patricia Los Angeles Linda Kosabe Ian Linda CA Sabin Leslie Van Houten spotify Patricia Krenwinkel Bianca
Captain James Riley Pt. 2: Enslaved

Hostage

47:53 min | 1 year ago

Captain James Riley Pt. 2: Enslaved

"I'm vanessa richardson introducing a new podcast original today in true crime. Today is thursday august twenty second two thousand nineteen on this day in nineteen eighty-four. A memorial service was held for dorothy athene. Jane scott over four years after her disappearance. Dorothy bones were found by a construction worker near anaheim anaheim california dorothy abduction and subsequent murder have never been solved today. True crime is podcasts new daily show that relives the biggest true crime events from each day in history. Don't miss today's full episode follow allo today in true crime for free on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts now this episode features discussion of kidnapping and physical clue abuse that some people may find offensive listener discretion is advised especially for children under thirteen. James's head buzzed from the miserable relentless sun. His body was so burnt that it felt like one single sore. The bottoms of his feet were raw in bloodied. He could barely walk. This had been his life every day for three weeks. The life of a berber slave he was naked malnourished and dying of thirst he made his peace with the fact that he would likely die out here in the sahara and his family would be left wondering what had happened to him for the rest of their lives would someone find his ship wrecked upon the barbary coast and assume whom he had drowned at sea would they do seed been taken as a slave in come looking for him. He knew they've never find him. His new master was taking him east towards timbuktu to one of the most notorious slave trading outposts in the world from there. He'd be fair to way by. I pirates and tina's crew would be scattered to the winds that was how they made slaves disappear. The moment they reached that city james israeli would be gone erased from history. His identity would be taken from him as he was sold to the highest bidder. They were a month's ons ride from the outpost at least one month. That was all the time he had to save himself after that captain james riley would be nothing but a memory this this is hostage a podcast original every week we tell the stories behind the most captivating hostage situations and the people inside them. We'll also also covered these psychological tactics used in kidnapping situations and with the human brain does win held captive. I'm emma blanco and i'm carter roy roy. This is our final episode on captain. James riley who in eighteen fifteen was captured and enslaved by the berber people after we're spending over a week marooned on the moroccan coastline last week we covered the nine harrowing days james and his crew spent on the barren beaches and inhospitable sees along the moroccan coast finally after over a week without a proper meal so dehydrated they'd they'd resorted to drinking their own urine james and his crew of ten gave themselves over to a berber tribe knowing they would be sold into slavery lavery well this week will follow the harrowing ordeal that ensued during the months. They spent held captive as slaves in northern africa. You can listen to all of podcast shows on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts new episodes of hostage. Come out every thursday at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do it. We love so let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and instagram at par cast and <music> twitter at podcast network and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening it really does held old early september eighteen fifteen thirty seven year old captain james riley and his crew bill had been split up by the berber tribe that had taken them hostage six of his men had been taken out into the desert and james was unsure whether he'd ever pursue them again meanwhile he and his four remaining men had been led up a craggy mountain that tore their feet to shreds they spent anthony first night under the stars naked battered and bruised cuts ran up their legs and bloodstream down them on top off of it all james into fellow captive a cook named dick had developed dysentery after drinking the well water and sour camel's milk that had been given given to them the night before slavery was already proving a miserable existence and james could feel any sense of a fighting spirit it slowly leaving him. The next few days bled together. They were filled with constant travel under merciless sun captive skin then burned to the point of blistering the sand dunes gave way to rocky terrain which cut their feet as they moved over it until they left pools of blood blood with each step and while they had camel's milk to drink they still had not eaten solid food in two weeks. James was in constant constant pain praying for death especially during the cold windy nights when his roskin was left completely exposed to the chill he he later wrote of the ordeal we lay down on the ground as close to each other as we could on the sharp stones without any lead to fend off the wind from us our bodies all over blistered and mangled the stones piercing through the sore naked flesh to the ribs and other bones. Lee is a nautical term for a shelter or form of protection from the elements a few nights into their capture. The little caravan landed at a settlement where a large population of berbers were gathered that night james watched as the men en and women sat around the campfire discussing the fates of the five slaves they now had in their possession. It was on this night. The james learned their their captors. Were berber muslims or margrethe's after a long while one of the eldest margrethe's approached james with a series of questions as neither spoke a common language it took a great deal of signing and pointing to get his meaning across but eventually james realized iced he was asking where they were from and how they had gotten to the camp. James answered as best he could. Suddenly he had an idea he signaled to the elder margaret demand that shoot he get the men to a city. They might be able to send for money and pay their own ransom. James knew his captors plan on to sell him and his men at auction. Certainly there was no harm in trying to buy their own freedom on this might seem incredibly clever but according to the book the journal of african history there was actually a history of slaves buying their own freedom albeit in west african countries like sierra leone. James didn't know it but at the time of his capture only one european slave had ever managed to secure their own freedom from the barbary slave trade aide a child who wasn't worth the hassle of raising the older margaret didn't say no outright but he indicated that the nearest city was a great distance distance and anything could happen between then and now with that the elder mugabe man took his leave and the slaves were taken away by the respective attractive owners for the night in the coming days. James found himself holding out hope that he could to pay his own ransom even though his crew members were always quick to remind him that this was unlikely in the meantime the caribbean continued to travel the sun blistered james bare heads so badly he thought it might split open the only thing that kept him going the faint hope that he might make it to the moroccan capital and find a friend there who might buy his freedom one day while it was trekking through the desert. Jane's riley's caravan cross paths with another while the modderbee's were talking. James's is landed on a sun blistered slave riding on a camel. He approached the slave life who said hello to him. James recognize the voice and slowly realised in horror that he knew the man on camelback his name was williams and he had been one of james's own crew but williams was now so burnt his skin was puffy from the sun and and blisters covered his body williams bag james if he should make it back to the states to tell williams wife and children that he died praying name for them. It was a grim thought but james knew deep down that williams was unlikely to make it more than a few days in this condition. It was is likely the last time these two men would ever speak soon. Williams caravan set out and as james watched him go he saw that the insides of his ties were so badly chafed the skin hung in ribbons with blood dripping down his leg. James prayed that he would die before his body would be forced to endure such torture but as the days dragged on into weeks. It seemed increasingly likely that james too do would die from hunger or the elements the captive men had been subsisting on camel's milk for the better part of a month and they were growing so hungry. They began to go insane on one occasion. James in another slave had to intervene when two of his fellow crewmembers caught a four year old boy who was playing a little ways from camp. They intended to smash his brains in with a rock and etiam. It was lucky james intervened according to writer tim newman newman with medical news daily the consumption of human flesh especially the brain can cause mad cow disease alzheimer's and eventual all death not to mention they would have certainly been killed by the villagers for murdering a child which would have defeated the point of sustaining themselves in the first place in an even even more gruesome scenario. One of his fellow slaves grew so mad with hunger. He tried to eat the flesh off his own arms. James and dick had to tie his hands behind his back to keep him from consuming his own body. The man wailed that he would rather die. I've been go any longer without food and james tried uselessly to calm him. The berbers themselves barely had food. Let alone enough to share share. They were used to going days at a time without meat but not james and his crew their state was growing dire and james worried that they wouldn't make another week especially clark whose fair skin was burning in peeling into strips and who's already thin frame languished from starvation. He seemed to be inching towards death store. Then one day about three weeks into their capture james spotted two arabian being travelers approaching the camp on camelback they dismounted their camels said james's masters tent and sat in front of it with their backs to it looking out out over the sands they each took a gun and laid it in the sand beside them then they waited james was intrigued. He had never seen visitors act this way before and wondered what business they had with his master. The master's wives seemed to know the man and instead of inviting them in set up an awning over them to shade them from the sun. Then the women tended to the men's camels later that day day one of the two men offered james some water to drink which he gladly accepted then using pantomime an old woman told james who who the men were they were from the capital and if james could convince them to buy him and his companion she said they could return with james and and allow them to pay his own ransom at this james felt his heart flutter he was so weak with hunger and delirious with heat exhaustion and the idea of making it all the way to the capital seemed impossible but he had to try from that moment on he bided his time waiting for a moment when he could speak with these men alone but that was proving a challenge as the men were well known within the camp and constantly surrounded finally after several hours one of the two strangers approach james in introduced himself as cd hammett james james who had been slowly picking up enough arabic to form crude sentences was able to communicate with cd hammett just enough to barter for his own life he offered hamad fifty dollars over eight hundred dollars today and fifty dollars for each of his men if city hamas but by them and take them to their friends in the capital so d- hamad consider this at length and spoke with immense masters finally he agreed to by everyone but clark who was so blistered and broken said he didn't believe he would live three days chains implored him to reconsider offering to pay his ransom. Weather clark lived were died. Finally sediba hamad relented. He wouldn't take take them to the capitol as it was too far but he would take them to. A port town called sura. James hoped he might make contact with someone at the consulate in sura an ambassador or friend who could pay the hefty ransom. It wasn't a sure bet but it was a chance. He was willing to take that at night. Cd hammett killed camel for provisions on the trip and james felt his heart leap into his throat. He hadn't considered the possibility disability of solid food on this journey. The thought of having a steady supply of meat brought him to tears mood seemed as though the worst of their ordeal was finally finally over but as always just as hope peaked it was dashed the afternoon before they were set to leave one of the slave slave masters changed his mind and demanded more for one crew member hogan than cd ahmed had initially agreed upon even though james assured sure city hamad that money would not be a problem in sura city hall met had traded for these slaves with blankets and other supplies. He had no more more left. Give which meant hogan would not be joining their party. His old master reclaimed him and beat his gnarled and malnourished frame with a rod hogan was so weak. James wasn't sure he'd last more than two days with the caravan but there was nothing to be done. James turned his head so as not to witness the beating although he heard hogan's cries ring out and the strikes of the poll against his blistered skin the little group now including only james dick horace and clark set out for sawara knowing there was was a grave price on all their heads. James felt a pang of regret for leaving the other six members of his crew out there somewhere in the desert. He promised himself that if he secured his freedom he would do everything within his power to find in free them as well so d- hammett lead lead their little caravan away from camp with one final reminder that a failure to pay would result in a slit throat and so they i set out no longer slaves but far from freeman coming up next the company experiences an unexpected detour on the way to sawara birthdays anniversaries holidays. These are the important dates. Most people tend to remember but the parkas network remembers important dates in true crime history every day. The new new podcast original today and true crime takes you back to the biggest events in true crime that happened each day in history whether the crime is infamous or just plain interesting. There's a crime story for every day of the year august thirty first eighteen eighty eight jack. The ripper commits his first murder october third nineteen ninety five o._j. Simpson is acquitted november nineteenth. Two thousand seventeen colts leader charles charles manson dies today in true crime is park cast. I daily true crime podcast. You no longer have to wait for weeks to get your true crime fix with with new episodes each day. You'll never run out of true. Crime content again. Crime never takes a day off now. Neither does par cast follow today. In in true crime for free on spotify and anywhere else you listen to podcasts now back to the story by late september number eighteen fifteen thirty seven year old captain james riley and his dwindling crew horace clarke dick and mr savage set out out for a coastal trading town where they believed a friend of james riley would hopefully pay their ransom. If the friend failed to pay their their new master cd rom that made it clear that he would slit james's throat and sell the rest of the crew for whatever he could get for them james the two traders and his crew set out across the desert embarking on a weeks long journey through the most desolate part of the sahara and and yet as they were no longer slaves the journeys seemed more manageable than the time they had spent with their margaret captors along the way they've passed through several berber camps where many of the locals tried to sell them and pieces of their own belongings which the local villagers had stolen from their ship the month prior fire one man tried to barter with james for his own spyglass and well james would have loved to recover the item he had nothing to trade. He wondered wondered if they were nearing the spot where the ship had initially wrecked or if european goods just got around the country quickly the days dragged on beneath as a blazing sun surrounded by sand as far as the i could see the men grew week for even though cd hammett and his companion onion fed them regularly they were still severely malnourished and sunburnt clark and horace both looked like they might not make it to sawara wehre which gave james cause for concern. He wondered how much longer their journey would stretch then one night. James awoke to hear a distant distant roar that filled him with dread he worried it was a storm or and approaching animal but after a moment as his xeres adjusted he realized he recognized the sound. It was the c. pounding against the rocks. They were nearing the coast which meant sawara could not be far. He felt a surge of joy rush through him for the first time in over a month. It seemed as though they might make it out alive or at least make it to sawara then james would need to find a friend or ambassador who could pay his ransom as they they drew nearer his confidence began to shake he resorted to prayer which while combing was no guarantee of deliverance as they neared so where black mountains rose up before them and cd hamad told james that they would be taking the dangerous path through the mountains as he were. They're going around the mountains might put them. In the path of robbers sidi hammad said that aware of was just on the other side but this was the most treacherous leg of if their journey james resigned himself to the notion that no part of his journey home would be easy and so the little caravan made their way to the foot of the mountains then began the steep climb the mountain jutted up on either side of the caravan and the ground beneath james's feet was laden with sharp jagged rocks at points. The mountain pass tilted and became slick or so boulder filled. It seemed impassable it. It was slow going and given what they were told about. Robbers james felt uneasy at the thought of spending the night on the pass. It took three days of toil oil to make it through the mountains and to james's great relief. No harm came to them. The caravan made its way out of the mountains and onto a sandy stony beach for the first time in nearly two months james saw the see the site of it elated him he had never known own such relief found himself on the verge of tears but the moment was cut short when something else thudded against the rocks james james looked up to see a large stone hurdle towards his party than smashed to smithereens on the rocks below two men with swords ran at the party realizing they were robbers and that he was completely unarmed james look to cd hamad for guidance so dehaan met drew his sword <music>. I'm prepared to fight the men just then another robber sprang out from behind a rock with a rifle pointed directly at sidi hammett who froze knowing he was no match for a bullet he lowered his sword as the robbers descended upon them james heard the gunshot before he saw where it landed he world around to look at city hall met hamad met his gaze on harmed and equally confused the robbers to seemed unsure then they heard someone holler and they looked westward to see two more men. Both with rifles us pointed straight at the robbers. They fired a warning shot to get the parties attention. The robbers didn't wait around to see who side they were on. They turned on their heels and begin running down the beach back the way they had come. One of the two unnamed gunmen fired a shot after them for good measure birth then wave james and his caravan before disappearing behind the rocks into the mountains. James was stunned as was the rest of his party. He didn't know who these men were that had helped him but he knew he now owed them his life shaken the little caravan moved with renewed zest knowing they wouldn't be lucky enough to be saved from a second band of robbers they quickly glee put distance between themselves and the beach and made their way back to the main road where there was just enough traffic to keep robbers at bay made their way up a hill and james could say the ocean sprawling out to the west as they reached the peak city hall met stopped him and pointed to a small dot in the distance there is he said james look toward the little dot anxiously he asked how long it would take to get their dr siddique hamad replied ten days at our slow pace james side and they continued on as they went they passed other traders and other settlements with more frequency solid food also became a little more frequent but it came at a great cost one morning they were passing by mugabe traders who offered sedivy hamed's companion and brother who james called saieed. A sizeable price for james's is fellow captives horace and burns. It was more money than james had been able to promise and seed was quick to take them up on the deal. James in sidi ahmed both quickly ran to horace index aide telling saieed he could not sell them. They made a deal nearly a month ago. When they departed from encamp besides stood firm he finally agreed to keep dick but was determined to sell horace so you didn't sedan met begin arguing in quick brash arabic and james had little choice but to stand by and watch then in a fit of rage sii took got a small pistol and held it horse's head shouting at his companion sediba hamad backed down but continued to try and persuade his brother are to keep their captive james to pled with saieed and broken arabic calling horace his son and begging for his freedom. Finally something something city hamad said too quick for james to understand pussai to the breaking point so i yelled if i cannot have him no one will with all his might. He threw horace onto the rocks below. The road horace landed with a thud james looked down ended his lifeless body expecting to see it smashed against the rocks instead. He just saw horace lying perfectly still almost almost peaceful looking in death. James began to sob and to his surprise saudi hamad did as well hamad lowered himself onto the rocks and grabbed horse's body pulling him upright to james shock horace coughed the fall hadn't killed him. James embraced is friend. Tears streaming down his face as sii stood at a small distance embarrassed slowly horace regained consciousness james held him. They had come too far to lose one another now. He promised himself they would all make it to swear. We're a alive together as a team by nightfall siddiqui hamad had led the caravan to a small settlement and went to greet its leader leader sidi mohammed while the men tied up the camels density hamad took james aside and told him that he was going to write a letter to his friend and so de hammett would travel the final three days to swear alone they would deliver the letter and if they were paid he would return to free free james and his men if they could not locate his friend or if his friend refused him they would return and kill james in an instant james james bags hamad to take him to swear that's a d. Hamas refused and so with no other option. James sat down to right. He composed a letter that explained the entirety of his plight listed the ransom amount and beg the recipient to pay the money and spare him and his men their lives who then handed the note to city hall met and told him to take it to the english spanish or french consoles being the only a european presence in the region and handed to whoever received them there the next morning sedition hermet set out on camelback while the men were held hostage by mohammed and his clan james didn't like this he felt had been a miracle that he'd met de hamad in the first place didn't want to further contrast strangers with his safety. He told his men to tell no one that they were sailors. Were that they had skills like carpentry for fear mohammed would sell sell them off to the highest bidder before c._d. Hamad had a chance to return the next week passed tediously and without incident under normal circumstances circumstances. James would have been thrilled that his captors had taken a keen disinterest in him but now that he was awaiting news every board moment. It felt like a little pinprick eating away at him. This isn't uncommon. According to robert young with the university of offered. Both humans and animals grow increasingly recently board in captivity and can develop depression and physical ticks without stimulation. This was likely compounded by the enormous anxiety james james felt unsure of whether sediba hamad would find someone at the consul willing to pay his ransom with only his pending doom to think on he exhausted himself and soon grew restless finally on the eighth day man arrived at the settlement and introduced himself as rice he addressed sl directly and saw e let him to wear james and his crew were huddled. Rice looked james up and down then asked him in spanish for his his name and for details on who he was hesitantly. James answered every question as best he could rice took an elongated pause. Then handed james a small fold of parchment. A letter in handwriting james did not recognize immediately. His hand started to a shake so much so that he could not bring himself to read it. He handed the parchment vertu mr savage and asked him to read mr savage began to unfold the paper knowing their fate was unfolding with it in a moment the conclusion to their long ordeal now back to the story in late october eighteen fifteen two who months into their captivity thirty seven year old captain james riley stood next to the four remaining members of his crew as one of them mr mr savage read a letter that had been sent from someone in a nearby town of sura mr savage gasp with relief as he announced a letter was was an english. He began to read it. Aloud james began to cry. As mr savage read the words. I have agreed to to pay the sum of nine hundred twenty hard dollars to sydney who met on your safe arrival in this town. He remains here as a kind of of hostage for your safe appearance. James couldn't believe it. The letter signed by a william wilshere guaranteed their safe passage is to swear at long last they would be free wilshire had also sent provisions to them including food and proper clothing the first pieces of real clothing had in two months that night they feasted on the provisions and immediately got sick as their stomachs stomachs weren't accustomed to handling so much solid food. It was the happiest stomach ache james had ever experienced the next morning. James awoke doc early and made t. over the fire. He happily doled out servings to the villagers who'd never had t- before he then held his fellow companions and load their supplies onto the camels rice their liaison had provided them and they set off for software as they went james found his starts starts turning to the six crew members that he had last seen two months ago when they were carted away by another group of berbers also so on his mind williams sunburnt bloated body nearly unrecognizable except for his voice he also thought of hogan who'd been left behind at the last moment james knew that if the malnourishment hadn't killed him yet the heartbreak very well might he had admit a promise to these men that he would secure their release if at all possible and he intended to keep that promise he just hoped they could clean to life long enough for him to pay their ransom. That was not an easy task on the barbary coast. James turned his attention to the road ahead and to a foul smell that made his nostrils burn. They soon passed a quiet. Seemingly ransacked walled settlement that absolutely absolutely wreaked has they wrote past royce explained to james. The settlement had been ransacked by pirates a week before in the pirates ritz had killed everyone inside the village. The walls were hiding the putrified bodies which now smelled so foul. Nobody would stop to bury them. Instead he explained they would be picked apart by crows. It served as a grisly reminder that while they were free there were far from safe a few days later they arrived at the gates of a city rice explained to the men that they would wait here while his friends sidi muhammad who had been keeping them at his camp road onto salgueiro with a letter which james was to write to william wilshere the next morning sidi muhammad set out for sura which was only days right away at this point in search of wilshire. James and his crew were forced to wait in the walled city aside from the anxiety of the weight itself their time there was fairly pleasant they retreated with respect and fed solid food who daily as much as their hosts could spare but after a few days of waiting a pilgrim arrived at the city and had a word with rice he seemed seemed hurried and visibly upset. James soon came to learn that a man named cd is sham had heard of the high price slaves being ransomed kawara and had set out with a small army to capture them. The pilgrim implored rice to take the slaves to santa cruz to the sultan of morocco himself to save them from capture is sham and his men would arrive in a day's time as they were likely riding through the night. James couldn't believe what he was hearing. They were so close the idea of delaying their freedom and running to santa cruz wherever that was crushed him but they seemingly had no choice. They did however have one saving grace. The prince prince of the city mugabe ibrahim had somehow been alerted to their plight and came to their tent with camels for the five sailors to ride and offered the escort them to santa cruz personally he said he would ensure their safe passage and grant them audience with the sultan as they set out towards santa cruz james asked rice who is sham was riley screw grave and explained that he was a descendant of the former kings who who ruled the land before the mauger concord morocco he was a wealthy powerful and extremely cunning man who commanded fifteen thousand troops the entire region derived its name from his ancestors kingdom berberia james understood. This wasn't about owning owning slaves. They were pawns in power play that he urged his camel on a little faster. James was pleased to learn earned that santa cruz was not far only about a day's journey from the walled city. They would arrive at the sultan's doorstep. Just as sheme came pounding on the city's walls in fact around noon the following day the white city of santa cruz came into view gleaming on a high mountain top off the final leg of their journey was along a sandy beach and the winds coming off the sea made the conditions nearly pleasant they rode into the city eh a modest dinner and settled down for the night in an open air tenth that had been provided to them by sheikh ali their new host here they would wait for cd et who is expected to arrive in about a week and hopefully they would be escorted to sawara and finally freed rodas. Everyone retired for the evening being came to james in hush tone rice told him he feared sheikh ali was plotting against them and would try to sell them as slaves and get them to another port town as soon as possible or they likely would never be heard from again. James was overwhelmed. There was danger at every turn grin and he was once again beginning to doubt whether he would ever see his wife and children again however had no intentions of allowing such betrayal rail he told james to alert his men they would sneak out under the cover of darkness and make their way to swear it would be a treacherous journey they would need to evade both the chic and sham who would not be expecting them to travel to swear by way of santa cruz but still he was <unk> out there somewhere and on the hunt a little after midnight. The crew stole out of the city with an escort that rai had arranged praying. They wouldn't allow. She called suspicions. Rice promised to join them in a few days as soon as he was able the little caravan snuck out of the city then mounted their camels and sped away as fast as they could manage they tried to put as much distance between themselves and santa to cruise as possible it wasn't until they finally slowed down about two hours later that they heard the distant hammering of hooves in the sand damned down the road they could see a horde of men on horseback thundering towards them. The caravan moved off the road. Hoping the riders riders had not yet seen them they waited in darkness hoping they would be passed by but as the riders moved past the caravan james thought he recognized recognized one of them he gasped and called out city hall met the writers continued pass them then came to a stop and doubled back james prayed. He hadn't just given away their position to a group of robbers with his luck. It would be par for the course but a booming ming voice answered back james riley. James couldn't believe the odds they had nearly missed sydney hammett after waiting weeks to greet beat him and here he was in the middle of nowhere at nearly three in the morning. The party's embrace genuinely thrilled to see one another after after all they had gone through together a friendship had formed in earnest. They set out immediately for software along. Some of the most dramatic coastline james james had seen so far. It was early november. Now in the mountain peaks were blanketed in snow. The atlas mountains were dotted with waterfalls and steep steep scenic cliffs that looked out over the rocky coast. The climate was harsh as it was breathtaking and james knew that for all the misery this this country had cost him. Its beauty was truly unparalleled. Finally after days of travel they rounded a mountain pass and the town of sura unfolded beneath them. James figured it was only an hour's ride away. Sidi ahmed that pointed to a ship in the distance swaying gently in the harbor. He told james that is the ship that will take you home. Then on the north side of the city something caught james's i an american flag waving over a building that he knew to be his consulate the site of it filled in with joy. He couldn't explain it but he had never felt so patriotic in his life. They rode into the wehre at up to william a._m. Wilshire's home william greeted them with tears of joy and told him how moved he was by james's letter he was so glad to see them safe wilshere fed and clothed them then nurse them to health over the course of a few weeks and james and his crew were put on a ship that took them back to america it before he left however james beta tearful goodbye to his friend sidi met the two spoke at length about hogan the crew member who had been left behind and the six other crew members that he knew were still out in the desert held captive so d- hamad that was so moved by his friend he agreed to go into the desert with his brother si- eat and search for the rest of the crew and free them in the same way that he had helped help. James james thanked him copiously then set off for his homeland for all his suffering. The people of morocco had endeared eared themselves to him and he considered sediba hammett a friend until his dying day so d- hamad kept his promise and secured the release of two more of james crew over the next few years however news later got back to james that two muslim brothers had been stoned to death by robbers in the desert while traveling alone between cities as he never heard from cd hamad again and he was sure the two men killed were he and his brother saieed he more on the loss of his friend for the rest of his life and as tribute to him wrote down the many adventures de hamad had shared with him during their time together about his travels to timbuktu back and publish those stories along with his own in eighteen seventeen. James spent the rest of his life battling illness and p._t._s._d. Or post traumatic stress disorder he he often suffered a rush of fear at the sight of strangers who resembled his captors and on at least one occasion disassociated from reality for the span ban of three days according to author and psychiatrist dr roxanne dryden edwards. This kind of memory gap called blacking out is common in victims of p._t._s._d. They can suffer memory loss for entire windows of time and difficulty surfacing these memories his i blackout lasted three days or he huddled in a corner at his bedroom. Nearly incapacitated psychiatrists argue over whether there is such a thing as repressed memories however the theory is that the brain literally shuts down when circumstances seem too dangerous or too much to handle has as a defense mechanism until the body is ready to cope james detailed much of his experience with this in his memoirs his book which was a primary source in in writing. These episodes of hostage also became a bestseller when it was first released after returning home james devoted his life to anti-slavery slavery activism. He also returned to see captaining a new vessel that travelled from new york to the bahamas twenty five years after his time in morocco. Oh he died at sea on march thirteenth eighteen forty of an unknown disease that his crew believed he contracted while in africa he was a sixty two at the time of his death but his legacy lived on through his activism work and his book which was one of the only first hand written accounts counts of the treatment of slaves. It is credited as being one of the three books that later formed abraham lincoln's views on slavery. James riley early never made it back to africa. It's hard to say whether he even wanted to return but his stories of the barbary coast not only further the abolitionist volition est movement within the united states but helped open the eyes of the world to the treachery of the barbary pirates and to the worldwide slave trade instead of trying to forget his suffering while held hostage james worked end the torture despair and death that define the slaving industry and gave a voice to the hundreds of thousands of slaves who had been stripped of their own and thanks again for tuning into hostage. We will be back next thursday with a new episode. You can find more episodes of hostage as well as all of our casts other shows on spotify or anywhere else you listen to podcasts casts several. You have asked how to help us now. If you enjoy the show the best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and instagram graham at podcast and twitter at parkas network. We'll see next time in the meantime. Don't take your freedom for granted. Hostage was created by max. Cutler is a production of cutler media and as part of the podcast network. It is produced by maxon ron cutler sound design by kerry murphy perfidy with production assistance by ron shapiro and paul moller additional production assistance by maggie admire and freddie beckley. This episode of hostage was written by aaron land and stars irma blanco and carter roy be sure to check checkout today in true crime every day it covers a different true crime event from history search and subscribed to today in true crime on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts.

james james James riley james riley james dick horace spotify sediba hamad hamad sydney hammett sura dr siddique hamad william wilshere hogan city hall sawara clark Jane scott william mugabe ibrahim timbuktu facebook
Can We Talk  Episode 74 Auntie and Life in Sweden

PodcastDetroit.com

58:36 min | 1 year ago

Can We Talk Episode 74 Auntie and Life in Sweden

"You're listening to the podcast detroit visit w._w._w. Dot best dot com before information the book of the adele these frame oh for everybody to talk. They got a half. The usual suspects today is me shayna also got <hes>. My lovely cousin visit from sweden johanna tie. Hello and i got her boyfriend. Daniel also business sweden. How's it going good hi everybody to be here. Thank you for coming. We feel happy to have you here. They never had swedish guests before last. So many questions we get we could just we just go in today so so many questions <hes> all right so we gotta handle man. I wish eric wasn't missing today. 'cause current events such a downer. <hes> we gotta leading occurs events. There were two shooting three. We have three mass shootings yesterday. Three mass shootings in america yesterday at three we had. I was the one in a walmart and sexists. There was one in a mall mall. Where was the mall. I know there was one in dayton ohio. That was a concern sir yet one at <hes> at the continentals another one in the mall on chicago was appropriate from el paso texas gets us texas yeah three or three yesterday so it was <hes> i think the most you was dating all. We and we have one in chicago but nobody died. Seven people injured. Oh my god pat. I'm sorry i i knew i knew was a downer but we gotta. We gotta do to current events. We got it was yeah. It was <hes> missing was dating pass a maryland maryland one one hand yeah. I mean so basically i mean other than you know. Given you know prayers out to the people who have who have lost loved ones in this i mean would would we take away from this besides just like we just really need to control gun control would what else what else can we take away from this <hes> uh-huh. I don't worry right now. We're in a reactionary culture like we have you know they. I was at the movies today now. It's it's like where can i sit so where something happens right allie they have they. Have you know lockdown drills at school <hes>. I know you know my daughter if the lasco's she went to they had one and she kind of trouble because she wasn't taking it serious. It seems like seven at the time like i'm wondering what you mean we gotta sit in the corner just be quiet but the one on <hes> the year after that <hes> where they actually did like because they were to parents fighting in the school so they actually go into a lot now l. situation with guns. They were just fighting. Okay it was something it was something that happened with their kids and then it escalated to the appearance and they were fighting inside the school so they go into a lockdown like that movie <hes> movie like about no. That's the teachers is fighting. Sorry you know the one was always. Shows me a clip from that movie dancing or yeah exactly cube ice cube. It'll come back to you. Oh you mean fistfight. Yeah yeah <hes> yeah. This is sad man. I mean i think we are in a reactionary culture. <hes> like back to back inside. The side like this is like very disturbing but you know they're like blaming it. On mental illness and video i saw video games i saw that they were saying now because of so many any by the video games that the desensitizing people but those have always been around and like that the sea so young they haven't always been so extremely yeah when you put the headphones and everything on your in there yeah for a minute i've been tapped on the video and then when hours when i was younger i did have the mortal kombat fighting game but the gang i had it was like you will punch like dust out the president wasn't he blood way with blood and i grew up with grand theft auto oh but i i don't know i've never played video games so i don't have too much to say about fat but the the student in texas though didn't he have some kind of manifesto that he posted on a._t._m. Before this event took place but then there's also <hes> looks like like there are people that were there. They're saying that there were multiple shooters. I heard something about that too. There's still going. That's our camera. That is a kansas. I can't dan rea yawkey. Talk can see we can see still going over. What i was. Thinking is how much the political climate is affecting. What people what people do you know 'cause. What do you guys sneaker to watch trump like like. What do they say. I would say about us. And what do you think about trump because i know he's jason. I know he's an eddie and he'd makes us look if she would. Do you guys name right well because i know that you guys have moved and stuff over there yeah so so like the worst yeah i mean i feel like news is pretty objective not as you know because i feel like here news anchors talk a lot about their own things about different subjects reno have almost subjective opinions broadcasted on air. We don't really have that in sweden. It's kind of like laid back. Objective us tell what's been going on. This is what it is not exactly yeah but i mean i don't know where to start on when she got i mean when when the last election was going on i never thought he would even make it to the primaries i mary's i guess i mean. I thought it was a joke to be honest. People took it as a humor back on luggage u._s._a. Surprise it is that yeah but <hes>. I mean up to this point. It's just it just gets worse and worse every day. I mean things things. He says and things he dies. Do what i feel like. I'm sorry what no go ahead <hes> yeah i mean. I don't know what to say though because it's just we we don't like trump. No we like a reality. Show like our country. A little uh-huh yeah and i mean america has always been you know bigger better better at everything and like i said the news is presented in a completely different way human yeah but this is just another level. No go go ahead and this is what can happen. Put say is one of the strongest countries in the world's top five and a run by somebody we like trump with that amount of stupidity and special kind of i just then everything is possible. Yes yeah which is scary. I heard that i mean i read about yesterday. Trump allegedly no not our prime minister's fund <hes> about the rocky thing was over there and he got freed but it was just kind of funny to me because yeah you obviously you don't know who our prime minister is but he's like a really laid back like a he used to be in the union for thirty years and worked as a you know mechanical take russian or something relate back typical social democrat. You know very awesome because mechanical like a mechanical technician here could never be president exactly so he's yeah very you know worker occur. What do you call it like a workers right exactly at could never complete opposites and i just can't remember i mean i can't <hes> imagine what that phone. Call must have sounded like assessing which isn't a really good either. I mean our prime minister right so yeah. I was funny. You mean the world. That's interesting. So what did you guys think about the ace at rocky situation as far as him being locked up over there. Are we the popcorn half-off kerner yeah yeah <hes> you've seen the videos. I haven't seen the footage of what actually happened. It's i it's funny i because trump to just amazing okay step is being holding on humane prisons not tortured but something very rough from the swedish we are known like the softest police and our prisons swedish asian origin prisons are in the world for the they're like a bad hotel for a lot of people and trump says all of these things but individual with rookie. It's quite a like he pulls the man don d. They'll jump and kick him so i mean i guess what they try to make it into his south to defense innocence yeah and i like i said i haven't seen the footage but the thing they said about sweden prison. It's just hilarious because they said that he got bad water. Bad food like we have the best tap water in the whole world. What are you talking about like and i guess he doesn't like the swedish meatballs charles and traditional yeah crazy because our prisons are very inhumane yeah. I i mean i. I would guess so not to be prejudiced but since you know know you wouldn't be guests <laughter> like they're very humane. <hes> we have thirty one prisons here in michigan and only one women's prison in it is is the worst like correctional officers quit all the time. Hi correctional officers need two weeks of extra training. If they are to be sent to work in the women's prison <hes> the conditions they're artists in and there's no telling what the conditions are in the millions presents but the the women's prison here is is the year not good. It's not yes not good at all like they had an outbreak of some type of skin disease slack doc like it was like a it wasn't bad books. It was some other type of in this. I think this happened like a year ago and they didn't do too much about it. I'm probably <hes> <hes> yeah overpopulation like yeah. I i assume it is <music> overpopulated overpopulated. That's why like when people say something like to like a woman like oh. You know you're going to go to jail. I ain't gonna where to put her. Don't give her probation center home like wow definitely <hes> so. Oh i mean before we go on. I do want to introduce the topic before we get into it today. We're talking about a certain controversy behind the term on t- <hes> yeah we're gonna touch on that <music> but <hes> you and i since your corner. You didn't listen to chance utah interesting. I just like it was a two thousand sixteen. Believe so color color was huge. Yeah not love i still i still listen to book. I love coloring book. We went to the concert her just the divide was off to me so you know and then to me also like if i wasn't artists i would not be on twitter like twitter has ruined a lot of artists for me because they type you know you know their immediate thoughts and then the lead but by the time they have to lead is someone is taking a screen shot of it and stuff like that so he has had some opinions of course you know he was defending unkindly west antics going off of some people to i think he took one of his fans to eat a dick tickets fast to do what he has to robert was on twitter. I guess it was him trying to be funny but <hes> he told one of his fans to like eat a dick that was criticizing him and that kind of made ways like he just told one of his fans that you know because they thought he was hacked not act. I'm really saying that you know. I guess it was when they would people would try you. That's the thing that's that's another reason why as if i was was an artist a director actor writer any type of public figure. I would not be on twitter because people will try you so i don i definitely the aperture wouldn't fought him for verbally defending himself right because people go at him all the time <hes> i can't and give a an accurate review of the alma hurt like like the first six songs but so far seems pretty solid is mostly him talking about his union because i know he just got married so just talking talking about his union with his wife. You know whereas <unk> book was about him being saved you know having a newfound christian beliefs so he's a positive rapper. I say his music is pretty positive by now. <hes> that's his niche. I gotta finish it up but so far. It sounds good. It's called the big day. Just a lot of tracks yeah. Are there inner. Loo ooh or is this. I don't think they're in a lose. I can check real quick but i don't. I don't believe in loops. What is his most famous songs chance the rapper no problems in the problem with lil wayne into chains. I might observe you probably heard he sounds like a worldwide club. World right song on. Maybe <hes> i know drake dropped a compilation of like like decides that never made it to his albums but that's teams that are like a streak classics. Six <hes> caught care package. Augusta girls love beyond say dreams worth more than money just like the singles he would drop in between albums. I i like this longer has left say yes so he's hyping everybody up for the new album coming now <hes> other than that perry what happened. She lost her lawsuit. The christian rapper <hes> was his name. There was a christian artist said darkhorse <hes> stowed beat from her song all year safi craze jaw joyful noise okay yep so she lost her loss to do nothing. They gotta pay almost three million. I'm sure they'll appeal that but <hes> some money marcus marcus gray is the is the artists of the asong joel joyful noise okay yeah so you haven't listened to them. No saw okay so i listened there. Are it eskom. A counter reminded me of when i listened to it by the similarities between <hes> got to give it up and blur lines hi like they're. They're like they're clearly there right right yeah yeah. I was going to mention that because robin thicke did have to come out of pocket for him for rail right yeah. It was sent me for records for rails to producer. Em robin thicke was credited for writing even though he said he didn't write it right right right. He say he was high. The creepy song to <hes> is it all we got going to percents onto my two cents. You know everybody knows on the movie guy. <hes> i went to see once upon a time in hollywood with brad pitt <hes> leonardo dicaprio margot robbie <hes> this is tarantino's most restrained film like ever like like you know when you tarintino you'd think pulp fiction inglorious bastards like violence over the top. This is kinda like a like a like a character driven like serene film. I mean it does get to that point but that's like way way onward <hes> basically it. It looks like ill say hollywood. At the end of the sixties. We're like the old in hollywood is being replaced by the new hollywood seventies and also you got like the charles manson stuff in the background so like once you know if you noticed story about sharon tate in the charles charles charles manson murders that kinda brought like the loss of innocence to hollywood so it basically follows a leonardo dicaprio who's like a aging hollywood star brad pitt his stuntman and margot robbie who is sharon tate and <hes>. It's unlike anything he's ever done because it's slow but it's like a good slow-paced movie as it feels like independent film made on a big budget so i'd recommended is is is a different kind of movie eight c._e._o. Yeah yeah that was kind of like that was set up like a play hateful eight. This wanna kinda like is really like he really liked. Captures the time sixties late you can tell like with the production design they really we did put their all into it but <hes> you said you saw hobson shaw. Yes the rock and jason stadium. Was it fun. Yes yes yes it. Does this like extremely violent this explosives. I was in a movie cracking up right explosion come. I'm from nowhere like people we're driving trucks with no windshield windows in buildings. Don't oh how a scratch on on i was laughing like. I know people like she s because i was just laughing just like there's a character on on play by egypt's elbow. He's like a super strand for humans but what's the racks. Excuse very like they're all superhuman off superhuman. That was hoping there'd be a twist whereas like he doesn't have the potion. We've had in the whole time like. Was there a twist like that or now. 'cause i'll be like okay now. It makes sense for the fast and a furious series because these guys are like super strong and never gonna scratch on. I'm like okay. They've always said walking down buildings like the sign of it sounds crazy. It was crazy where it it was a fun movie. It was extremely extremely violent but i mean that's expect from this. This franchise is p._g. Thirteen when you say violence do you mean like like this all the explosions shooting everybody everyone so what's what's more outrageous this john wick. I don't know 'cause every every shot is a kill shot back with the master's can't read so. I don't know like they're both equally ridiculous. I guess okay but i mean i would recommend it. If you're not if you're not expecting too much if you not expecting dial or plot district to the point yeah they do get straight to the point is blowing up stuff from beginning to end literally so there's no real plot is what you're saying. I mean they try. They try. It was a of a super virus and they have to kitted protective but whatever exposure yes so racing cars to straight up superhuman people yes yes. I wanted to switch gears because <hes> we have two people here from sweden death saw one of our most talked about films of the year mid-summer. Oh yeah response. I mean i can sleep that night. I had nightmares no but i really wanted to see it though because it's so funny to me when i saw the trailer i realized the movie is set in the littoral region where we come where i come from so i've celebrated midsummer my whole life in helsinki bound where the movie c._b._s. So so that was like a fun twist but <hes> i mean he knows his yeah yeah. <hes> i mean yeah. It was just it was it was crazy but people shooting the midsummer the traditional midsummer he kind of mixed it up put uh-huh to traditional midsummer thing i mean obviously given directions did really do anything like from to jump off off a clip at a certain age that is true yeah so it's not just made up. I thought it was only. I don't wanna get the person is cut up and it took out his lungs. That's my way. That's an old viking team. They did that to some people. It's so that's made a little bit old. It's okay nothing similar things did exist and that's what makes it a little bit more interesting okay yeah yeah he did and i didn't know that though with the with the things questions injured but it's big it's but what is up to date is all the booze and <hes> we drink a lot during midsummer <hes> not so much psychedelics may be so but <hes> maybe they'll blow up after the you guys told me that movies like this sometimes it makes it hard for tourists to come visit. The come visit sweden sweet because they get they get. They get scared yeah serious. If it's gonna go down or go michael on the two things i mean in i i responded to that. I said i've movies like this and hostile they kinda show how americans it's kinda sober place on a reflexive us in how we can kind of be ignorant outside of our country autry you know like like with the whole tree seen like we were talking about that and you should know better than the piss on any treat is laying down like anywhere you know like of of course that's a sacred ground. You shouldn't mess with something like that but i really think it's more reflective on us not out in front of people he he just whipped it out and started peeing. I'll say is that how we but it was funny to me though 'cause they there was a lot of <hes> passages that they didn't have any text under what do you call it <hes> so yeah that was on purpose purpose mona outside. They'll know what because you hear what they were saying understood it yeah yeah yeah. We're the only ones here that understand what they're talking about. Did it did unlike subtle clues for what was to come as an audience member now honestly no yeah yeah. I didn't really leave anything important out now but it was very well made eight. It was very beautifully shocked to yes and i wonder where it was shot. If it was actually shot in sweden or it could have been anywhere in a minute but i know that it wasn't in in sweden but it was it was a place where like the summer days were short. Might the daytime was short surf director yet eight the director had to like oh really rushing get it done all carry yeah definitely so <hes> shot in budapest hungary. Oh okay cool yeah yeah but i enjoyed it all right cool cool <hes>. Have you seen anything like i saw i've seen i'll watch other. Got it on netflix. Okay yeah so that's patricia arquette <hes> easily bassett bassett and <hes> soliciting felicity hoffman how to go. I liked it a good movie. It was a pretty good movie. I enjoyed it because it's about mothers moving on after their kids. Have kinda like left the nest and end so like they have gone their their their children have like they're gone for the but it's like they get together. They realize how disconnected they are from their children so then they just take a spur of the moment road trip to where they live and they disrupt their lives in the process s. about it was it was a pretty in the in the process of disrupting their sons lives. They test their own friendship okay and that's on netflix on net flicks six. I wanna watch this new. Documentary called the great hack because everybody keeps talking about this. A new <hes> film on netflix documentary is really about. I think it touches on the russia thing saying how russia kinda like like hacked americans neck technology a little bit. I can't speak too much of that. 'cause i haven't really watched it but i heard good thing so i mean i'm i'm still on the fence about the whole russia thing i just think that they kind of push that narrative to relieve responsibility ready from from the people that actually voted for trump all they know about trump and they still voted for him so i think they kind of push that like oh. You can't control if you can't if we'll give you bits and if we get you this information and the russians give you this information you put it together like you're not making your own decision decision and i think a lot of people they go into the voting will fame ain't down incision yeah yeah. I do agree that too. I think it is being used as i dunno smoking mirrors the right term but it is being used front by who say the media yeah we well yeah. Well we basically we. Have we have a ton of we have a lot of twenty four hour news network. They're the two main ones are m._s._n._b._c. We see at fox news and they are like polar opposites so c._n._n. C._n._n. This kinda is is le. It's a little left leaning little left. They have their by kind of. I think that conservative palace and stuff like that right right but <hes> <hes> so on m._s._n._b._c. the left like democratic democratic pushing channels russia russia russian yeah russia russia mueller report this all the time like this first two years of trump's administration and they're not really talking about policies. They're not talking about secre supreme court decisions that have been made and how they will affect the american people they just take the the the focus off of that because i think like that they dropped the ball on that because we recently had <hes> legislation passed where an employer can put an arbitration clause. He your employees contract wing sign on so basically what arbitration clause does he is is. You can't take us to court if we abuse you. If we discriminate against you for any type of any kinda athenee type of way you have to go to arbitrator in arbitrators paid by the company and then they will make the decision as to whether or not we've wronged you so that is a blow to class action lawsuits where a bunch of people that were wrong. Don't buy company. Employs can get together and filed a lawsuit together that so that basically has like taking that away from workers m._s._n._b._c. report that of course fox news we report there because that's more of a <hes> a right wing kind of thing putting more power to the company and less with the workers so yes with m._s._n._b._c. Fox is cease to like fox's bright in m._s._n._b._c.'s left right two opposites <hes> i it. I mean it's hard. Oh you sly fillet news. You can trust most gotta go to the internet or a c. Span c-span ages show hearings and stuff like that and congressional congressional proceedings and stuff. There's nobody sitting there reporting and interpreted in using their bias to report a four <hes> before are we head into our topic. I wanted to give a quick shot out <hes> my father <hes> yesterday. He turned sixty years young shout out to him. Yeah he the <hes>. He doesn't look a day over like forty. He led he really looked so <hes>. You wanna lead us into our topic. <hes> i._t.'s you talk about how you o'brien gail. They recently had a conversation sation about the term i._t. Over gayle king <hes> they had a term to term aunty ava vernay in a tube because <hes> interview see head. Ah where usually in the black community auntie is like a former respect you know an uncle to and they looked at us like well. That kind of makes me feel a little old. You know what i mean. That's that was their response to the term so i guess today we're mostly talking about like you know like. How do we look at it. We look at as a former respect. <hes> how how can it be looked at it the other way is that big of a deal and pretty much. That's pretty much will begin to so. Would you say i think <hes> hm has opened not been auntie like like some money. I somebody that we kind of respected it. Kinda looked up to what i think that would they were kind of. Trying to say is like ozzy kind of makes me a sexual by. I'm not looked at like in a sexual way too because like you you calling me at t- like nobody costs halliburton auntie. She's in her fifties late forties. That is another way of looking at yeah. I've always i've always looked at auntie as respect and <hes> it could like subconsciously be at a sexual thing to like. I know like <hes> my mother had her job. You know oh. She has co organizer auntie. She always look at looks at as respect. We got on t. maxine waters. You know we call her auntie <hes> yeah. I never the thought of that. That's another viewpoint. It could be looked at as that but i definitely think it's a sign of this is it. It can't be interpreted that way but i definitely think it's like a sign of respect like i look up to you. I'll see you for guidance like there's a lot of people look so therefore you know influences what the by with re right right so at what age would you would. It be appropriate. Start calling someone auntie would could you call a twenty five year old on tee. If you will have a lot of wisdom there are beyond their years. There are a group of young boys that i mentor and one day i was we walking across street somewhere and i don't know what happened to my ankle but it just like went out and i like belly i was fine but after that they started calling me auntie roles search for derrick rose because they're always getting injured. Also they call me. I see wrong. I don't take it. I didn't take offense to any and they just like. It's nowadays just late. They just let it fall and i it was like oh yes job. When i just let it fall like that's my name ooh yeah. There's that too i to answer your question though it could be like figures like you've known since you've been young like we've grown up with oprah's the queen latifah's not i mean the monique's and stuff like that like you know like entertainers that we refer to his aunty. Mary j. blige our furhter. I worked revert her as aunty mary. You you know what i mean. Just like like figures that you've grown up with. I know daniel. You spoke about something a sweden about your grandmother on your on your block the grew up with will it's actually in serbia but all my friends and have to call grandma grandma buffer. Everybody stick to me when i with your grandma does the first thing that come up start calling her grandma and one person grandma you just call her completing that okay but it was a form of respect though he was form of looking at someone like you know okay. You're you're my elder respect and i you hold authority church turgeon okay okay. I know there's always been things like <hes>. You know like people calling you. Sir and ma'am like growing up like i'd be a little i'll be i would delegate with certain older women calling <unk> collumnist that a man 'cause sometimes it'd be like ma'am. I'm not that old. You know there was always like thing behind that like with some women okay. I'm sorry miss granted to that time. I you know yes sir sir now but usually because sir it can be applied to a seven-year-old boy in us seventy hero man but this but miss. It's like younger women and then ma'am. It's like older women so he of course with ma'am. You're gonna run on into their where you call. Somebody may get offended right now. Like yeah ma'am you're fifty but i got cold man for the first time like last week and today actually went to the coffee shop you know before we came here <hes> but i was honest. I totally have that you know being offended thing about because it was the first time i haven't been here the la- i was twenty six now twenty nine look weary young so i wouldn't call turning thirty next year so i guess i'm a bit self conscious about that sars like ma'am. You've really called me ma'am. I was like oh my god. I'm gonna win. I don't know yeah. I was trying to explain like places like that like with a tim hortons like like a coney island to or restaurant the first time and the waiter call me demand at some point. I think there's a training thing like you know always referred them. As ma'am sir you know always refer to the customer and it's never happened before though and i've been here a lot as a young woman twenty something and this is the first time so it has to be. I don't know maybe because i have a man with anyway. We're going to be called. Ma'am in a man was serving a restaurant like now. I know that i shouldn't but miss isn't that as an as opposed to mrs that's the technical thing like if you're married as mrs right yes yeah yeah but if you're not married his miss yeah but also i was mostly going for like the mismanage thing like melania like some women don't like to be called mandate thing and makes them look to o arkansas always say missed missed by default to average no matter their age. That's a good way to go at you should stick with. I don't know who's going to get offended. That's just that's just how i look at. I don't care. I mean really at the end of the day i think i don't think it's that big of a deal but it does spark discussion discussion on social media guy like tweets you you saw about it or not really no not really <hes> i think also with the auntie thing <hes> it's definitely i don't know because i have nieces and nephews. I have a niece that i'm ten years older older than so not that far apart in age and then i have nieces and nephews walmart twenty years older twenty six years older than them eighteen years older than now they call me auntie auntie cena but my niece where we're only taking you as a person you just calling me saying don't call me not never have probably never will so. It's a generational thing. I guess then yes. It sounds like it because i think there's like one generation and between then yeah we could be <hes> <hes>. I know one thing we forgot to talk about. It's kinda unrelated. <hes> okay well. We'll get into marshawn lynch but all yeah also talk about our kelly's a crisis manager or what it was this guy calm self publicist so at the moment arcadia he is <hes> do for percents exciting a he is in jail. He isn't holding yeah. I believe so so <hes> his crisis manager went on c._n._n. Spoke about the whole matter and there was another thing when he was outside the building and he was talking with jocelyn savage parents going back and forth with them this guy so what's your spot that you watch the video sent. Did you watch i mean i feel like this guy like he. He's in the wrong profession like you know don limited onepointoh point on c._n._n. Accidents like where does r kelly get the money to fund his bail and things like if he's broke. Where's the money coming from so the crisis manager says all you know it came from fans and he says okay that's an interesting fans you know and then like <hes> so he said like so really fans the center money sitting there crisis was like well. You know i'm just talking you know plausible. Deniability take the money. The money came from fans. It might have not i'm like dog came from our county. Do you guys listen to our kelly. You know who he we know who okay <hes>. R kelly has a die hard fan gas fans that are not giving up on him. I have a lady lady friend who lives are kelly. Everytime r kelly comes to town. She's going to concerts shoes our right through them protesters. I wanna see r kelly and the she her her. She's i heard it was a go from our go. I can give r kelly twenty dollars so so stanhood man so what he say may have been true because some people they could probably figure out a way like i guess mondays aren't kelly so we can get out of jail. I don't doubt it. I really don't doubt it. I mean people who are really die hard for their stars who have taken a falling from grace in anything. I truly only believe if eminem ever takes a fall from grace. He have a bunch of steam with the with the dyed hair. That's gonna that's gonna give money to him has a lot of money oh yeah of course if things ever happened i i could see that happening if he if you put go fund me <hes> <hes> yeah so that was strange so marshawn lynch you want to introduce this one. You saw that video d._s._p. That okay okay so he's coaching so coaching little league team or now. There's a camp okay. There's like what happens is when their kids that play sports they go to special camps. I'm so i've been the specialized camps when i was younger for basketball so i guess marshawn lynch he cussed at the key isn't in the moss at a problem with indiana <hes> they were leaving. The maoz were lead man. She didn't even take her this. She told her she had a kid with. I guess she was storming off and he did go. Go up there to speak with her. He said is air man around that acsi to what does that matter. He says well you know. I just want to speak to a man. What about this. You know this marshawn. He's a n._f._l. Player he is yeah. He's a football player so <hes> usually any specialized camps in near our current <hes> n._f._l. Player said you know the name on the cabinet at the campbell's camps very expensive uh-huh so i'm sure they it costs at least a stack of one thousand dollars before that it lease even even if it's for a few days <hes> the n._f._l. Is a very well. Most leagues are very hard to get into but out out of all the leaves the n._f._l. Is hard to be there are so many people that want to go to the n._f._l. So i when people sitting their kids to these specialized camps camps run by current or past n._f._l. Players they they do it so that their kids can have the extra edge the extra. Maybe maybe this will help them get into the league because it's run by somebody that has has either been illegal already or is in the league right now so i don't understand what they we're expecting from marshawn lynch right somebody who curses over star wars dubs this autumn get fine. Um yeah coined that term. <hes> and i know we had a conversation where i was like <hes> i was like okay coach cursing out the kids like i i've heard that but then it then it was talking about him like saying inward towards the kids and there was this was like a mix of white black and white kids. I know now he's black. He's black so that was the one thing that threw me off like <hes> that that those me off call in late like like like like the like the players the n. word then. You're not talking to you. Were like well you ever saw friday night tykes and i'm like no you know coaches curse out kia's all and i thought about that you know how cats on friday night tightly exc they're young. They're like anywhere between like twelve or fifteen years old this on friday night tykes is not flag the football. It's impact for boss like football year. There's that and then that led to nothing. I was like man. I can't watch a show like that. 'cause i can't watch little kids bumping their heads together and then you said well you know last chance you you know they're still kind of young in college during that and even on n._f._l. Even noted a dole age. They've been bumped. They might have possibly been bumping heads off throughout the years and that kind of made me say we'll give football is really like a is always a disturbing serving sport to me as opposed to basketball which still is a little dangerous but carries a little bit more finesse opinion but yet i kinda just this caused a stir of like dislike and if you have your kid enrolled and impact football marshawn lynch cussing educators the lisi a._c. Around rooms like all we know about c._t. E._m. brain and how it's not supposed to be impact like basically assemblywoman watch football. You're watching car accident happened. Every forty six is that an actual quote from no chrissy raines the consistency of butter and we can't keep bumping like they tried to make the helmet safe safe referred then you know they used to be used to be this leather heads but now but it is still our bodies bodies on i may for our brains are not made for that so and they did a study on i think was one hundred and fifteen people that have passed away and they all play football and they were you know people have passed away at different stages in our live eighteen years old all the way up to seventy and they all had some form of c._t._e. Some more severe than others and they were all from different positions that play football so wasn't lying or quarterbacks or anything like that what a. c. T. c. c. e. is a degenerative disease that they believe is caused by the the repeated impact football wow i did not. I guess that's why they get paid so much so like football is the big thing is we now know it's ours and sometimes or getting a little bit more poplar like our town and coupons though but it's nothing it's all crap. Okay is always not as like like clashing. It's like <hes> no it is it is clashing is not as popular yeah. It's played in the same way. Yeah yeah guy in our little town for the people play got that went to sweden just to play football which was really strange to me place. That'll take shouldn't have been that good. I guess smart humor. I guess if you want to coach a team head player yeah blue yeah yeah. I'm asking why players they go to leagues all over the world in play and then you know football like it's like it's big here with ana budding. You know in other places. No candidate has a lee where the rock play so so what's <hes> so compared to our political climb in america. What's the political climate sweden. I know you said the prime. Minister is laid back like is it really just like it's the whole lay back thing. I mean no. It's no it's not very laid back but it's not as charge may be as it is here <hes> but we the political climate has changed though in sweden during the past. Maybe eight nine years 'cause the the the man that is prime. Minister is the head of the social democrats in sweden and they've always been the biggest party and they still are and they're in power right now but we have a new right wing party. That's been growing every year since ten years back yeah <hes> and i think when they formed and became like came onto the scene they will be the eighth biggest party and now the third biggest party <hes> <hes> and they've taken a lot of voters from the social democrats but also let the right wing <hes> that would be more like the republicans here. I guess <hes> <hes> so it's i mean yeah and they're they. The the scary thing is that they really came from a scene of neo nazis. That's where the party originated and they've been trying to clean up that act <hes> for the past decade and you know present themselves as <unk> serious political <hes> yeah but it's it's just something you could really clean up nicely right right. No i mean they've been involved in all kinds of scandals with just people you know getting drunk and trying to assault someone with the baseball just writing really racist things on the internet like referring to people as monkeys and <hes> fit for a little bit like trump having no post like let's make sweden great again. Let's clean it up these kind of things and there's is just they came to our school and they have these little posters and adjust that yeah so there's a third culture our swedish culture should not be mixed so so much alike we are destroying our christian culture thing it's just bad but the growing that's they'll raising or crazy sexting unloaded like trump and this crazy like how make america great again how how it is like us like as like an anti immigrant stands like all over for the world because they have make tijuana great again hats because you know the central americans that are trying to you know come through tijuana. I want to mexico to america the domestic that like the people in tijuana. They don't want them there. They want them to come to america's. They don't want them there interesting carolina. I think you know countries. I think countries learn from one another and sometimes that can be a detriment like what you're telling me now with. This makes sweet great again thing <hes> but i like to like kinda like in on a high note. I heard like you to been having a great time in detroit like like. I know you love detroit. You really you really fall in love with it. Aren't you about. I wanna come back to because i think yeah. I think you've mostly. We heard negative things about detroit will do really. I went to a little bit on the you told me it was like a run down city and half the population moved out so like when when you heard something we'll go to a city that half depletion or left. I was expecting everything pretty much empty so yeah. I mean i sounds. I was like i was talking about about detroit now. I was just kind of preparing you for like the history of the city and like you know because it's really mixed like you have these really nice neighborhoods hoods and then you have streets were half. The houses are empty fan and i mean that's just the way it's been for the past. I don't know fifteen ears like that longer. Maybe maybe twenty twenty years you right because you know like the the the nice neighborhoods that were good twenty years ago. They're still nice by the end of the boston. Edison district <hes> university district rosedale par the grandma grandma area like those areas still nice and they weren't really affected by the housing prices crisis where the the other areas where there there were not so good economically they got worse and i mean a lot of cities and areas were affected acted by the crisis a decade ago so i mean that's not an unique to detroit but i've really feel though that since i was this year that was only like three years ago. I feel like a different vibe though even now. I don't know if it's that i've been around more but i feel like it's like more. He's looking for yeah but vibe. Since i've been here this time and i mean i guess there's both positives and negatives about how fat off money goes towards downtown but that has other parts of detroit dab like been neglected for a long time kind of like pushed to the side like like night like for sightseers not to see so there are positives and negatives downtown is completely different than what it was in the past it is right. Yeah has changed and i like history stuff i do. I do have to be honest. I like the hipster coffee. I like the hipster food vegan against stuff and everything you know but but i do get the negative side of of maybe like you said the wealth not being evenly distributed like pockets in certain areas and that's an issue it is yeah so i know you guys have been loving bell so have you. You've been elected twice so far this because i know you kayak yesterday sounds holding sounds terrifying. 'cause i don't know how to do it. It's very slow at you would like it. I think you can do it by yourself. Just know the introverted and just looking at the birds and the trees levels were high does wasn't kayaking like it was a good yesterday was great. It was packing. I guess if you're gonna crazy river and then it's like soft off nicer than anybody can do. It's young old strong fits nuts it's really for everybody has fire pace. Look at the water birds. I mean as long as you don't go out. You know where the water is more rough. It's very calm and you go on your own pace. I loved it and you say hi to. People mansions add a bit. A nobel park has kind of changed over the years to like. I know some people like they don't. They don't go to bail out as much anymore because because like i know it became like make was run over by the state now. It used to be run by the city but by the state <hes> i don't i. I don't think there are any like major like <hes> like cosmetic changes like it looks sane like always been beautiful right right but is this like the people is a lot of people that you gotta pay to get on the island. You have to have a license and license since played that allows you person but i've been the bill. I like to run them bill but i'll think five miles around so you know i like like to like to run on the air in the morning sometimes very nice <hes> but yeah the you know people they go out there fish. I don't know if you want to eat the fish that you think are uncle does. He had some fish from delilah in the freezer. I heard he was want. Ah alvin my daddy daddy my my cooking. My daddy like i'm like five but my father he you know when he will finish out a bail out. He wouldn't let me eat the fish as mercury team sport thing yeah yeah okay well. <hes> maybe we should maybe they should look into that. I don't know i mean i just i. I mean you're always taking a gamble with that. In general fishing so you like yeah yeah so okay but on a funny side note i shouldn't say this because i'm gonna gross you out but we went into the river estee and <hes> uh i have showered hygiene things but i haven't showered my whole body so yeah i don't know maybe i have too much murky on my skin. It was filed. People people act too careful when it comes to that stuff but like i'm sure i'm sure you're good okay so what's the founding members in my sorry so like travelling back and forth from detroit to sweden. What's the fondest memory you have of like this city. I know where oil oak right now but it was defined as memory you have a michigan. Oh the fondest memory families barbecue families barbecue. I ashley chess player chess when everybody played pool in play cards and jiang vera had really good food. I thought it was wow we really are spades family. We take seriously very seriously thought it was so valley. Nothing overly had his other side of the family so much were different quieter quieter very swedish very calm very yeah so i thought it was really sick this side of the family so that's i'm thinking memory home all right. That's awesome. That's awesome johannesburg anything same answer. <hes> i think actually going out to was the top for me yet. Wise lies okay yeah all right all right well. I mean i'll have really any final thoughts here. I feel auntie going back to the central topic. It is a sign of respect. I do say out of respect but <hes> i do carry. I guess i guess after the today do carry acknowledge me that it could be a little could could be a little a sexual thing near to what do you think don commie that if obama your team. I'm on the same page. Okay well <hes> johanna daniel. Thank you for coming. All thanks for having us. It was thanks for swedish wisdom outside perspective scandanavia breeze yeah so <hes> like share subscribe i eric. We'll be back next episode. <hes> thanks for another episode of can't we talk.

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The Manson Girls - The Women of the Manson Family

Female Criminals

49:59 min | 1 year ago

The Manson Girls - The Women of the Manson Family

"Due to the graphic nature of these women's crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of Thirteen Leslie. Van Houten had always been a good girl as she stood in her father's home the home where she grew up. She remembered the girl who used to sing in church choir. The charming young lady who was elected elected homecoming queen the house was dark. She watched her friends move from room to room collecting valuables. She watched them rob her family blind. Then she hurried agreed to help she felt a tinge of remorse as she looted heirlooms she one day might have inherited but she tamped those feelings down. This was for the greater good Charlie had been sending them on these nightly missions for the better part of the summer of nineteen sixty nine. They needed all the money and valuables they could get something was coming. He said something big a race war and when helter skelter hit she would would be at the center of it ready to lead the new world order these petty thefts didn't matter after helter skelter the house she had grown up in would be reduced to rubble her parents would never make it <music> out alive picture a murderer a gangster a thief. Did you picture a woman. They didn't think so- society associates men with dangerous crimes but what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday we examined the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals hi I'm Sammy Ni- and I'm Vanessa Richardson and you're listening to female criminals apar- cast original this week we're commemorating the fifty year anniversary of the infamous Manson family murders on August eighth and ninth nineteen sixty nine and covering the women Manson manipulated to carry out these gruesome crimes. This episode is part of podcasts summer of sixty nine event July twenty second through August ninth all your your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing were diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Colt and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening it really does help on August eighth and ninth nineteen sixty nine followers of cult leader Charles Manson drove into Los Angeles and murdered seven people seemingly at random among them was actress Sharon tate who was almost nine months pregnant at the time the Manson family murders are among the most infamous in the American cannon and change the socio political mindset mindset of the country forever Manson manipulated and weaponized the counterculture movement and captivated the American public with chilling sentiments like quote? I am only what you made me. I am only only a reflection of you but less well known are the followers who committed these acts twenty one year old Susan Atkins Nineteen Year Old Leslie Van Houten Twenty One year old Patricia Krenwinkel Twenty Twenty Year Old Linda Ca Sapien twenty six year old Catherine share and twenty year old Lynette squeaky fromm me this week will delve into the lives of these women and find out how they came to live with the Manson family on the SPAHN ranch. Just outside Los Angeles next week will cover the two night murder spree that left seven dead and killed the counterculture movement Charles Manson was born to sixteen year old Kathleen Maddox on November Twelfth Nineteen thirty four. He entered the world an unwanted child. His mother cared so little for him that she didn't even bother naming him on his hospital records to this day. His birth certificate reads no name Matic's if one needed further proof of her indifference Kathleen wants took Manson to a bar when he was still a toddler a woman sitting eating a few stools down commented on how cute he was too which Kathleen replied by me a pitcher of beer and he's yours. The woman laughed and Bader the beer assuming kathleen was joking but an hour later Kathleen in got up and walked out her two year old son still sitting on the bar next to an empty pitcher Manson was later returned to his mother who was less than thrilled that the police had been able to track her down. It might seem unlikely likely that nobody called child protective services but in nineteen thirty six the U._S. was still recovering from the Great Depression and nobody had the resources to feed extra mouths. Children were no better off as wards of the state than with neglectful parents so back to Kathleen he went over the next thirty years Manson's life would get no easier he would be in and out of jail constantly for sex trafficking forgery the and theft in nineteen sixty he was arrested for pimping and spent the next seven years in McNeil Island prison by the time he was paroled in San Francisco in March nineteen sixty seven the thirty two year old vagabond bond was broke a hardened criminal and nothing short of psychopathic Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here just a reminder. She is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy Tammi in an article for medical daily journalist. Alana gloats reported that Manson showed signs of antisocial personality disorder throughout his life according to the D._S._M.. Five people with A._P._D.. Show disregard for the feelings of others and lack of moral responsibility the Mayo Clinic ads people with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize manipulate or treat others harshly or with callous indifference the difference they show no guilt or remorse for their behavior. Psychopathy is an extreme form of A._P._D.. Hallmarked by manipulation impulsive and often aggressive behavior and a lack of regard for rules many psychopaths paths Manson included learn to mimic socially appropriate behavior to get what they want from people incapable of reform prison only exposed him to people who taught him how to improve his manipulation tactics he learned how a target vulnerable women from pimps he met at McNeil Island Prison Soon Thirty two year old Charles Manson was nothing short of a snake charmer when he was paroled in nineteen sixty seven he. He moved to San Francisco. The place for the counterculture movement hippies swarmed the Haight Ashbury neighborhood seeking love acceptance and any drug available Manson arrived at haight Ashbury to discover throngs wrongs of men and women in their late teens and early twenties largely disillusioned by the Vietnam War and the materialism and traditional religious values of their parents generation. The counterculture movement had turned away from established religious institutions and began looking for more spirituality based guidance. Many young people began following gurus who seem to have tapped some kind of nirvana or higher calling without realizing it many of these free spirited spirited hippies broke away from one established religion only to fall into smaller more radical religious groups with Charles Manson's magnetism and knack for public speaking he styled himself as one of these gurus and soon garnered himself a small following he traveled up and down the coast making contact with women around Southern California drawing them into his fold. One of his earliest followers was a young mousy redhead ED named Lynette Foamy Lynette has had many claims to fame over the years including her attempted assassination of President Gerald Ford in nineteen seventy five but before she was a failed assassin she was Charles Manson's right right hand woman. The oldest of three children Lynette was born on October twenty second nineteen forty eight in Santa Monica California her mother Helen was a homemaker and her father William was an aeronautical engineer from a young age Lynette proved that she was destined for notoriety as a kid. She was a star performer in a dance troupe called the West Chester Larry. It's the troupe was so good that they were invited to tour all over the country even performing at the White House when Lynette was about ten Lynette was a fairly good student usually getting as and BS and had an interest in theatre in fact it was through her junior highs theater department that she met the first man she would ever fall in love with a young Phil Hartmann who would later gain fame as a comedian on Saturday night live for the record. It doesn't seem like Lynette and Hartman ever dated she was enamored with him and always seemed to be tagging digging along behind him. He didn't mind the attention but the affection was clearly. One sided limit shared equality similar to many of her future Manson family sisters a near constant need for validation specifically from men and according to author and researcher Bruce Brian's. These behaviors are often learned in childhood. Both men and women are trained from a young age to seek male attention especially in assist gendered Patriarchal Society like like the Nineteen Fifties United States in most family units at the time. The father's attention was more scarce making it a hot commodity Lynette herself has confirmed that her father was often wrapped up in his own work and studies passionate about his job but emotionally unavailable to his children. According to Brian's women with emotionally unavailable fathers often go looking for attention from their male peers but if they don't find the attention in romantic romantic partners some of these women Lynette included can become addicted to chasing approval from emotionally unavailable men. This kind of attention is usually lackluster at best but to Lynette it was better than no oh attention at all. She didn't mind having to work hard for divided attention equality that would serve her well in the years to come lynette graduated high school in Nineteen Sixty six after which her story gets a little little murky by age eighteen she was homeless living on the streets near Venice Beach California. Little is known about what drove such a wedge between her and her family that she ended up homeless just a few miles from where if she grew up biographer just braven has suggested that Lynette was sexually abused by her father which could have been why she felt unsafe living in his home but Lynette has denied these accusations. Whatever the reason by the time I'm she met Charles Manson in nineteen sixty seven nineteen year old lynette had hit rock bottom? She recalled sitting on a park bench by the beach. When a shaggy-haired man approached her and said named Charlie the connection connection was instantaneous Lynette and Charlie talked about all sorts of things her past her feelings of abandonment about feeling trapped by her homelessness and Poverty Charlie listened and was empathetic? He said he understood stood Lynette. He had just spent nearly eight years trapped in prison for most young women. This would have been a red flag but no man had ever given Lynette this much undivided attention. Even her boyfriend had a way of making her feel misunderstood and lonely within their relationship then Charles Manson stood up and told them that he was on his way north to visit his mother he pointed to a small gaggle of people nearby and said that they were coming with him if if she liked Lynnette could come to with that Charlie and the group began to walk away Lynette was already tethered to him as he started to disappear down the block she could feel something tugging at her urging her go after him without thinking she grabbed her bag and took off down the street that Balmy Day in nineteen sixty seven and every day since Lynette fromm e did the thing she did best follow a man Dan who would never quite let her catch him lynette settled into life with Charles Manson quickly. She was only one of several women with whom Charlie was intimate all of whom seemed vulnerable and directionless unless many of them were drug users or had hit rock bottom lynnette believed Charlie just wanted to protect them and take care of them a belief she still holds to this day. Lynette and Charlie soon began a sexual relationship along with a third member of their little group twenty-four-year-old Mary Brunner at First Charlie's polygamy made lynette uncomfortable especially as he began sleeping with newer members of the family some of whom were as young as thirteen but sharing Charlie's attention was better than being outside the family she got over it in truth. This was just the reaction Charles Manson was counting on he had a knack for spotting women who would let him push. I their boundaries learn from the pimps he met while serving time women who felt devalued by other men would confuse his manipulative behaviour as love in fact former Pimp Galen Harper once explained to k. five new Seattle that when grooming a woman for the sex trade he would seek out a woman with little confidence and work to gain her trust then he knew she would be hooked on him for the long-term tragically most of Manson's followers. We're from broken homes. He preyed on women who consider themselves damaged an unwanted. He used sex to fabricate intimacy with these women knowing they would work to keep his attention. It was these skills that helped Manson Lourdes Patricia Krenwinkel who he renamed Katie into the fold in less than two years Charles Manson would completely remake Katie into a murderer in a moment the Manson family lays down roots and spreads its wings last year. I had a health scare with my cat checkers. Luckily it was only a benign tumor. 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It allowed me to get wedding information and buy gifts in one convenient place Zola to register for physical gifts gift cards and even a honeymoon fund you can easily build your whole invitation suite at Sola from save the dates and invites today of paper and thank you cards build build your free wedding website on Zola and get fifty dollars towards your registry. GO TO ZOLA DOT COM slash criminals and get started today. That's Z.. O. L. A. DOT COM slash criminals to build your free wedding being website on Zola and get fifty dollars towards your registry now back to the story. Patricia Krenwinkel was born on December third nineteen forty seven near Los Angeles. Her story is similar to many of the women who eventually followed Manson she felt lonely and unwonted and was searching to belong Patricia was bullied for most of her childhood for being overweight which made her feel isolated from her appears. At fifteen she lost her virginity to a boy she thought had feelings for her only to never hear from him again after that she became addicted to diet pills supplied to her by her older sister Charlene who was a heroin addict but once Patricia lost considerable weight her peer started bullying her about the excessive dark hair that covered her body then to top it all off. Her parents divorced in nineteen sixty five when when she was seventeen by the time she graduated High School in Nineteen Sixty six Patricia self worth was in the gutter she felt ugly and unwanted so much so that she decided no man would ever love her and turned her focus toward becoming a nun she briefly enrolled at Spring Hill College in Alabama a Jesuit Catholic school with the intention of studying catechism but she dropped out after only one semester ester and returned home to Los Angeles. She tried teaching catechism briefly but ultimately abandoned the idea of joining the convent and found a clerical job in L._A.. By the time she met Charles Manson in nineteen sixty seven nineteen year old Patricia felt utterly isolated from her peers and rejected by her family she once said quote. I never ever developed a sense of who I was and where I was going and what I wanted to do I wanted to please. I wanted to feel safe to feel like someone was going to care for me. I hadn't felt that from anyone else in my life she would soon meet the person who would easily low her into a sense of security however however false one night in September nineteen sixty seven Patricia came home to find Charlene in the basement with a group of her friends including a shaggy-haired Guitar player named Charlie Charlie immediately really picked up on Patricia insecurities and pounced the two slept together that night and Charlie told her she was beautiful. After nineteen years of being teased for her looks Patricia was so moved by the sentiment that she was brought to tears Charles Manson made her stand in front of a mere naked and call herself beautiful which only further broke down her defenses. She told Charlie that night that she would follow him anywhere anywhere and became the third woman in his little traveling caravan she lynette fromm me and Mary Brunner became the Manson Girls Susan Atkins would soon join their ranks <music> Susan a San Gabriel California native suffered a similar pattern of neglect. Her father was an alcoholic and her mother died of cancer in nineteen sixty three when Susan was fifteen Susan had always had a strained range relationship with her father but without her mother as a buffer their relationship quickly deteriorated she moved out and fell in with a bad crowd eventually doing three months of jail time for armed robbery when she was released released in nineteen sixty seven nineteen year old Susan moved to San Francisco where she took up topless dancing and selling drugs to make ends meet later that year she met Charles Manson when he came to visit a commune. She was staying Dan soon after their chance encounter. Susan's commune was raided by police largely because it was more a drug infested flop house than a residence and Susan quickly found herself homeless Manson invited her to join in his group and he established his own commune in San Francisco. The Manson family was officially born from its inception Charles Manson was always about ten years older than his average follower. He acted like a father figure to them which provided them with a sense of security they had lacked at home of course most upstanding fathers do not initiate sexual relationships with their daughters but this never seemed to bother the Manson girls many of whom were well underage but as their little family grew aspiring musician Charles Manson realized he would need a bigger place to stay somewhere he might be able to make it in the business in nineteen nineteen sixty eight he found such a spot and he and his little collection of broken souls headed south to the city where stars are born Beach Boys Drummer Dennis Wilson picked up a few of Charles Manson's family members who were hitchhiking into L._A.. The hitchhiker's introduced Wilson to Charles Manson and the two men met and became fast friends. Manson was an aspiring musician and Dennis Wilson liked his is energy and the Gaggle of women at every Beck and call the two hit it off so well that Dennis agreed to allow Charlie and his followers to crash his home for the course of the summer not only that but Dennis confided fight in Manson that he was growing tired of the beach boys sound and preferred the songs Charles composed he recorded a few of Manson's tracks and even introduced Charles to a record producer named Terry. Melchor Melcher was one of the biggest producers of his day. He's largely credited with shaping the California rock sound that has become so indicative of nineteen sixties counterculture and when Charles Manson and Dennis Wilson visited it'd him at his home on yellow. Dr Meltzer seemed genuinely interested in Charlie's music he even tossed around the idea of making a movie about Manson's commune Manson left never having felt so high finally finally he was breaking into the music business and proving himself to be the rotten God he always knew he would be he had everything and impending record deal a gaggle of devoted followers and a swanky Hollywood home home where the party never stopped but the endless lifestyle of sex drugs and more drugs soon war on Wilson who estimated that between food medical costs drugs noise complaints and property damage the ever-growing Manson family was costing him around one hundred thousand dollars within just a few months. The Manson family was never a particularly large cult at its height it only had about thirty members but they took over over every nook and cranny of Wilson's home until he finally had to kick them out at the end of the summer in nineteen sixty eight the budding Manson family settled into Spahn ranch and abandoned movie sat owned by George Spahn. He agreed to allow the family to live on his ranch in exchange for upkeep of the property and his pick of the Manson girls spun is also credited with giving twenty year old Lynette fromm me the nickname name squeaky after the noises she made when he grabbed her Manson loved the nickname and from that moment on the moniker stuck. It's widely insinuated that squeaky paid the families rent by having sex with spun on at least a few occasions but squeaky has neither outright confirmed nor denied this it seemed as though the Manson family was back on the up and up even more thrilling Dennis Wilson called to say that he was bringing Terry Melcher up to the ranch to hear a few more of Manson songs Charlie was thrilled and by all accounts Melcher did like his sound but he still had reservations about working with Charles Manson Melcher it seemed was a much better judge of character Victor Than Dennis Wilson Melcher left the ranch falsely promising to call Charlie soon when the call failed to come Manson spiraled into a rage he went looking for Dennis Wilson only to discover cover that Wilson wasn't home fuming he drove to the home on Cielo drive where he had first met Melcher but unbeknownst to Charlie Melcher and his girlfriend had vacated the house months before it was now being rented to Director Roman Polanski and his wife Sharon Tate Manson and Polanski seemingly had some kind of altercation at the home mostly because Manson refused to believe that Melcher no longer lived there he loved more venomous than ever and went back to spawn ranch to lick his wounds following a series of outbursts and threats Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher severed ties with Manson completely leaving his dreams of music six stardom dashed but Charles Manson was always one to hold a grudge he projected all of the hate and neglect that he had been carrying with him for years onto the industry that had most recently rejected him and and for the first time everything he hated had a physical address one zero zero five zero see yellow drive he committed it to memory and promised to be back throughout the rest of nineteen sixty eight and into nineteen sixty nine Charles Manson put all his energy into gathering new followers and bringing them to live on Spahn ranch. The first of these was Catherine and share of French American woman born in Paris on December tenth nineteen forty to her parents were members of the French underground during World War Two and died of suicide to prevent themselves from being taken by Nazis. A newly orphaned Catherine was sent to a French orphanage where she lived until nineteen fifty when she was eight years old at this point she was adopted by a French woman and her American psychologist husband shortly afterwards the family of three relocated to Los Angeles California but her new set of parents would later abandon her in much the same way as her birth parents in nineteen fifty eight when Catherine was sixteen her mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and decided to end things on her own terms she too died of suicide. Her adoptive father was overwhelmed with grief and by that point had gone completely blind given everything he needed did a caretaker and catherine quickly filled that role but their relationship was never the same after the death of Catherine's adoptive mother her adoptive father grew distant and cold. She felt rejected by him especially especially after he remarried leaving teenage Catherine without much purpose or direction in life she graduated from Hollywood high school in nineteen sixty feeling more isolated than ever as her peers began to enjoy Roy the free love movement that defined the decade she searched for a way to fill a void in her life. She wanted to feel loved feeling anxious and alone she enrolled in college and spent the next three years trying to find some indirection during that time she was married and quickly divorced which only left her feeling more lonely than before the relationship she indulged in overeating drugs and free love in an attempt to compensate by nineteen sixty three twenty one year old Catherine was utterly listless. She embraced her new personas a flower child and began drifting around southern California ever in search of a party she would rudolf wind up back in L.. A. Where for lack of something better to do she would take roles in soft porn films. One such acting role was in a movie called Ramrod her onset Catherine met Bobby Beausoleil a struggling musician from Santa Barbara and the two became fast friends bobby also introduced catherine to his wife Gail. The three hit it off so well that Catherine began living with them for the first time in years. She felt like she had a small mall makeshift family in other words for the first time in a long time she had something to lose which might have made her far more susceptible to the family friend Bobby soon introduced her to Charlie was the most charming person Katherine had ever met his shaggy brown hair and wide smile were captivating. She fell for him in an instant. Catherine knew little about Charlie other than the fact that he rented a huge ranch twenty five miles north north of Los Angeles as the two grew closer Catherine also learned that Charlie lived with a group of free love hippies all around her age. They called themselves. The Manson family and Charlie was their leader. The the word family grabbed her. She knew she wanted to be a part of it. Eight months after moving in with bobby and gail all three of the move to spawn ranch and began living in the commune with Manson by the time they moved onto the Ranch Katherine had fallen in love with Charlie who seemingly reciprocated her feelings not that he was interested in monogamy of course when it came to sex Charlie Manson lived by strict the more the merrier philosophy. Charlie soon gave Catherine the nickname Gypsy moniker that would follow her the rest of her life Gypsy was twenty six the oldest woman living on the ranch and quickly became the family's mother she also became Manson's recruiter in chief seeking out vulnerable listless women who might like to help expand the family two of these women Leslie Van Houten and Linda Kosabe Ian would live on the ranch for less than a year before participating in one of the most infamous murders in American history in a moment the Manson family gets its first taste of blood. Sammy and I are so appreciative of you spending the time to listen to our show as a thank you we wanted to do something special for you. podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark season in American history. The the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine for three weeks. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals so if you're enjoying our look into the women of the Manson family you can check out the crimes of passion podcast it takes a deep dive into how Charles Manson created the Manson family and how they transitioned from a group of outcasts too violent murderers to hear all of the fascinating summer of Nineteen sixty-nine episodes search for and subscribe to summer of Nineteen sixty-nine on spotify or anywhere else who listen to podcast shows and don't forget to tune into crimes of passion for a different angle on Charles Manson and the Manson family now back to the story Leslie Van Houten was born on August twenty third nineteen forty nine in Altadena California. She was born into an upper middle class family and given every advantage in the world she was enrolled in sports as a kid and even elected homecoming queen in high school but despite her well to do upbringing Leslie never felt emotionally openly supported by her parents she felt trapped by their expectations of marrying an equally well brought up man and becoming a housewife as a teenager leslie experimented with drugs like L._S._d.. Hashish and Marijuana Anna but shortly after dabbling in drugs she began abusing them by the summer of nineteen sixty eight nineteen year old leslie was a full blown drug addict and social rebel who had fallen out of her parents. Graces is that Summer Leslie met Gypsy who told her about a man named Charles Manson and the family they were building at Spahn ranch much like Gypsy Leslie was attracted to the notion of family and decided to stay on the ranch with her new friends quickly becoming one of Charles Manson's favorite girls Leslie has since described her experience on the ranch as surreal the group would have orgies and take l._S._D.. Together and it was during these trips that Charles Charles Manson sermonizing about being the son of God he drew parallels between his last name Manson and being the son of man he would also make his followers help him recreate the crucifixion of Jesus with himself in the starring role while his group was under the influence of drugs he would explain to them how he the son of man had already died for them and asked if they would be willing to die for him him in exchange for followers like squeaky. This was no problem in fact there was seemingly nothing squeaky wouldn't do for Manson because the family didn't have money for food the girls would drive down into Los Angeles Silas and dumpster dive behind grocery stores for thrown out produce squeaky maintains that the food she ate out of those dumpsters was among the freshest cheese hat in her life. It's been rumored that she along with a few other girls were also pressured into sleeping with managers of at least one grocery store in exchange for being allowed to wade through the garbage for food. Women outnumbered men on the ranch five to one ratio that Manson dan rather liked he would occasionally recruit men to the ranch by offering them one of his front girls the nickname he gave to his most attractive set of followers. It was pimping although Charlie would paint it as family teamwork they I slept with men in exchange for drugs food or anything else. Charlie had his heart set on Manson also started forcing his followers to participate in Weird Trust exercises on one occasion he made followers stand in front of a tree while he threw hatchets just above their heads. If they flinched it meant they didn't trust him. Leslie recalled how Charles used to walk around the ranch and stop people at random to participate in weird exercises her sizes like mirroring his movements exactly so they were moving their hands and bodies in unison in hindsight she realized it was all part of a brainwashing process to train his budding Colt to follow him in all all things they were only allowed to listen to Charles Music on the ranch or the Beatles since he was particularly obsessed with the white album nineteen sixty nine continued on like this with nightly parties and daily sermons all <music> all stranger-than-fiction by the time Gypsy brought Linda Kosabe into the ranch. The Manson cult was fully formed in July nineteen sixty nine twenty year old. Linda was living into Panga California with her husband an infant daughter at that point her marriage had fallen apart completely and Linda was looking for a way out she found one through Gypsy who invited Linda to come live on Spahn ranch each with a group of people who would love and take care of each other. Linda didn't need much coaxing when she arrived at the ranch she was surprised at how welcoming the other women were. She was glad to find that there were other children on the ranch for her daughter daughter to play with. Everyone greeted her with hugs like she was one of them already in hindsight they were all completely drugged out but at the time it felt so warm that she didn't notice considering the loveless marriage she was leaving. It felt like a breath of fresh air. She didn't meet Charles Manson at first but the more she heard about him. The more the anticipation built the first night on the ranch she met Tex Watson. One of Manson's few male followers followers the to hit it off right away. Linda was attracted to him and in later interview said he made me feel like I had never felt before within the first few days of meeting. Linda confided in texts that her husband husband and his friend kept little stores of money in their trailer totalling about five thousand dollars. The money was meant for Linda and her husband to start a new life together. Maybe take an exotic trip but no plan. She made with her husband ever. I seem to materialize that's when tex gave her a proposition. She should steal the money he reasoned. It didn't belong to her husband anymore than belonged to her. Even at the time Linden new that was untrue but she wanted acceptance into the family and felt that stealing the money might be the best way to get it. She was right after raiding her old trailer for the cash. She was finally taken to meet Charlie. Linda remembered feeling a magnetic pull from the moment she met him. It was utterly thrilling. Not long after Linda's husband and his friend came to the ranch to demand their money back Charlie stuck up for Linda immediately. It's unclear. Unclear what exactly happened but a few moments in private with the two men sent them packing never to bother Linda again she had never felt so cared for from that moment onwards she became one of the thirty two adults. It's in Manson's cult of course this isn't surprising whether Linda recognized it or not she had just undergone an initiation ceremony. A nineteen sixty five study conducted at Stanford University showed that high risk or unpleasant unpleasant initiations make the group more attractive to the new member initiations are almost required for cults so that new members won't leave once the going gets rough and Linda's enthusiasm shows after all she had been willing to steal for this man before ever meeting him now. She do just about anything to see Charlie smile. Linda started participating in the colts now famous L._S._D.. Parties that would turn into orgies Manson would stay fairly sober during these to better control his followers he would tell them who to sleep with and control their every move and around this time his rhetoric grew grew noticeably darker leaving the realm of free love he began to convince his followers that he was the second coming of Christ and the devil all in the same person he began pushing his followers to commit strange strange petty crimes for him he called these missions creepy crawlies they would drive into Los Angeles and sneak into people's homes then rearrange all the furniture in the house while the homeowners were sleeping. It was unnerving thing people would wake up to find all the furniture in their home rearranged with almost nothing stolen during that time Manson Convinced Leslie Van Houten to rob her father's house she did so without a second I thought Charles had always had irresistible charisma but now his followers were beginning to see him as something more he was godlike to them. He began giving sermons to his followers wherein Aaron he would talk about the looming apocalypse that would destroy all but the chosen few he became obsessed with the Beatles Song Helter skelter which he believed was written as a direct message to him. He said the song was heralding the end times times. When a great race war would lay society to ruin in his estimation the race war would lead to the toppling of white supremacy and the black community would rise to power as the new world leaders Manson Jason and his friends would stay out of the war completely they would hide out in the desert which would become a land of milk and honey as described in the book of revelation in the Bible he explained black? Americans deserve the right to rise to power they had been trampled on for centuries so it was only good Karma that they get their chance to rule but Manson was racist he also believed that the black community was unequipped to rule and would eventually need white men to show them how to lead with no other white men left Manson and his family would come back from the desert to take the reins of power from the overwhelmed black leaders. It was ridiculous racist Hogwash but his L._S._D.. Adult old followers believed it wholeheartedly after all the nineteen sixties were a time of extreme racial tension in the United States. The rise of the Black Panthers caused over inflated panic among many white communities too too many a race war wasn't a far leap from the race riots. They were seeing around the country Manson began speaking of helter skelter on a daily basis Linda Qossaibi and recalled an excitement building around it then in late July nineteen sixty nine something happened that would put helter skelter on the fast track Manson family member Bobby Beausoleil went up to a friend's house accompanied by twenty six year old Mary Brunner and twenty twenty one year old Susan Atkins the home was rented by a friend named Gary Henman a brilliant musician who had once played Carnegie Hall he also supplied Bobby with drugs from time to time which bobby would then sell but at the most recent batch of Mescaline Gary sold bobby was bad and has buyers wanted their money back which meant that Bobby Intern wanted a refund bobby. Susan and Mary overpowered Gary and tied him to a chair. They demanded their money back but gary told them he didn't have the cash eventually Manson showed up at the cabin with a Samurai Sword and tried to intimidate Gary but Gary wasn't scared of Manson and refused to pay by this point Charles Manson had been living as a deified cult leader for nearly two years. He didn't take kindly to being rebuked. He used the sword to slice part of Gary's ear off sending Gary Reeling and pain Bobby tried to patch Gary's ear up but gary insisted on seeking medical attention. Gary didn't know it but he had just signed his own death warrant Bobby would later say eh Gary didn't deserve one bit of what happened next but he felt like he had no choice. He knew that the second they brought him to the hospital Gary Would Narc Bobby Killed Gary Henman. He tortured his friend end for three days before finally stabbing him twice in the chest. Charles Manson knew exactly how to get away with the murder to using Gary's blood they made a pop print on the wall of Henman's cabin and wrote put political piggies in Blood Charles hoped that by using these symbols of the Black Panthers he could pin the murder on them and incite a race riot but he had learned something else too that if he wanted he he could push his followers to murder it was a skill he knew would be mighty useful in the impending war he returned to spawn ranch and told his followers to get ready. A war was coming Hellfire would be on their doorstep your step and when it arrived all of Los Angeles would burn to the ground. Thanks again for tuning into our female L. Criminals Summer of sixty nine special next week we finish our deep dive into the Manson family murders a spree of slayings so horrific. They're largely considered the moment that ended the sixties. If you enjoyed this episode checkout podcasts continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second to August ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to Zodiac killer be sure to check it out on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Female Criminals was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network. It is produced by Max Ron Cutler sound design by Michael Langner with production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Liba skin additional production assistance by Carly Madden and Maggie Admire female criminals is written by Aaron Keren Land and Stars Vanessa Richardson and Sammy Ni- don't forget to check out the crimes of passion podcast for a different angle on Charles Manson and the Manson family.

Kathleen Maddox Charles Manson Melcher Charlie Charlie Manson family Lynette Foamy Lynette Los Angeles California Van Houten Manson Jason Patricia Krenwinkel Catherine spotify Susan Atkins Charles High School Nineteen Fifties United States murder Mary Brunner facebook Vanessa Richardson
Frank Sinatra Jr.: Along For The Ride

Hostage

49:53 min | 1 year ago

Frank Sinatra Jr.: Along For The Ride

"This episode features discussion of Kidnapping Violence Drug Abuse and use of firearms that some may find offensive listener discretion is advised especially for children under thirteen in December eighth nineteen sixty three dressed only in his underwear nineteen year old Frank Sinatra Junior eight fried chicken laughed and joked with this trumpet player John Fos soon they would have to put on their suits and warm up before spending the evening playing to a packed house at the Harrah's Club Lodge. They weren't expecting any company in fact the men didn't want to be disturbed so close to a performance but a two delivery men knocked on the door of the dressing room anyway seeing the package frank junior directed them to just put it down over there then he turned his attention back to his dinner and two thoughts the nights set list when Frank Junior next looked up from his chicken he was staring down the barrel of a loaded gun and this is hostage apar- cast original every week we tell the stories behind the most captivating hostage situations and the people inside them. We'll also cover these psychological Michael Tactics used in kidnapping situations and what the human brain does when held captive. I'm Irma Blanco Corduroy. You can listen to all of podcasts shows on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts new episodes of hostage. Come out every Thursday podcast. We are grateful for you aren't listeners you allow us to do what we love so let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network at work and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you are listening it really does help we also now have merchandise head to podcast dot com slash merch for more information <music> today. We're talking about Frank Sinatra junior a nineteen year old singer who became the target of two first time criminals hoping to score a huge ransom from Sinatra's famous father in today's special one part episode will look at every aspect of this truly bizarre an unusual kidnapping from the two days Frank Sinatra junior spent as a hostage in nineteen sixty three to the disturbing public reaction afterward born on June sixteenth nineteen forty in Los Angeles California Young Berry Keenan seemed destined for a successful career in business. His natural talents were developed during his time at the prestigious university high school which counted Marilyn Monroe Judy garland among its alumni growing up in Hollywood berry rubbed elbows as with some of the biggest names in popular music among Berries Childhood Best Friends was Dean Torrance who later became one half of the Surf Music Duo Jannine Dean their songs Surf City was the first surf track to to rise to number one on the billboard hot one hundred chart. Perhaps even more impressive was berries connection to the Sinatra Family Nancy Sinatra. The eldest daughter of Frank Sinatra was a high school classmate of Berries Aries on several occasions. She invited Berry over to her luxurious home. Berry was fond of the Sinatra family. It bothered him to know that Franks only son frank junior had been packed off to boarding school and was hardly in touch with his parents junior took after his father in many ways he too was aloun singer who performed in clubs and on television the world over while balancing his schoolwork junior clearly looked up to his father other. Although the two of them shared an icy distance neither seem to know how to communicate their affection so the two drifted apart and barely spoke Sinatra senior wasn't the easiest to get close to after for all his best friends were mobsters from Chicago in Detroit and Sinatra was a known philanderer junior took after his dad in that respect to although he seemingly hid that side of himself from his family berry saw himself in frank junior and imagine how badly he would feel in the younger man shoes they were only a few years apart in age so it was easy to picture frank junior spending his evenings lonely and miserable at Boarding School while Berry had dinner at his family's table of course never having met Frank Junior Berry had no idea how the other boy really felt about his living situation in addition to easily making friends with peers and adults alike berry was quite academically gifted before even leaving high school he already shown a strong aptitude for investing with a particular interest in real estate however he also struggled with addiction from an early age by fourteen berry was an alcoholic contrary to popular belief the adolescence most likely to struggle with addiction aren't necessarily those with poor impulse control or deficient judgment in other areas of life in fact some studies suggest that unusually gifted children may be at Greater Risk for Addiction Maya Salads author of unbroken brain a revolutionary new way of understanding addiction wrote for Scientific American that quote it is extremes of personality and temperament some of which are associated with talents not deficits that elevates risk giftedness and high Q. For instance are linked with higher rates of illegal drug use than having average intelligence and Berry was certainly gifted after high school he began to study at U._C._L._A. But soon found himself to voting more of his time to real estate investing than coursework and his dealmaking started to pay off in one thousand nine hundred sixty one at age twenty. One Berry dropped out of U._C._L._A.. In modern currency that amount would be worth around eighty four thousand dollars or over a million dollars annually not bad for college dropout. Young Berry was just as lucky in love. Does he was in business. He met the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with and she had accepted his marriage proposal. He was young brilliant and rich with famous friends and a beautiful fiance. Everything was coming up berry out of concern for her privacy. Berry hasn't named his fiancee in interviews but we do know they spent a lot of time together and we're very much in love. They looked forward to their wedding and to a long life together but in one terrible moment their dreams of marital bliss vanished on a rainy night in nineteen sixty one berry drove his nineteen sixty Ford ranchero through the Westwood neighborhood of Los Angeles on his way to his mother's house in the passenger seat was his wife to be too late to slam on the brakes berry saw a dog in the middle of the road dude he reacted out of instinct without thinking very swerve sharply and according to The Washington Post it several parked cars before retaining wall finally stopped his out of control vehicle. He was lucky to be alive but nothing that came after the accident felt very much like good luck berry developed chronic back pain and was prescribed Pirka Dan Pirka. Dan is the brand named for drug that combines aspirin with oxycodone own according to the F._D._a.. Perkin exposes patients to the risks of opioid addiction and abuse which can include overdose and death combining Perga- Dan with alcohol can can result in profound sedation coma respiratory arrest and sudden death in the early nineteen sixties opioid addiction wasn't yet the crisis it is today Berry didn't know about all of these risks and even even if he had known his severe alcoholism wouldn't have allowed him to just stop drinking so berry kept drinking and kept taking the Pirka Dan for months after the accident when the mixture of Perkins Sand and Alcohol Hall Rendered Berry unable to keep up with his business or personal affairs his fiancee left him Berry Keenan saw himself as a gifted brilliant investor not as a physically and mentally ill young man and in need of psychiatric medical help and fortunately for him he was both one by one berries real estate deals fell through investors stopped returning this calls he went from buying and selling selling expensive properties to selling discount window coverings and he wasn't even succeeding at that Berry knew he desperately needed money but what could he do. He'd burned all his bridges not to mention destroyed his mental health by mid nineteen sixty three twenty-three-year-old berry was broke sick and desperate he'd been living for two years with a constant mix of perkin and alcohol system his thinking was distorted and unrealistic thoughts totally out of character for the young investor floated in the berries mind out of nowhere then became obsessions that he couldn't get rid of until he acted on them from his perspective. Barry wasn't fighting his way through this low point alone he had begun hearing the Voice of God raised deeply religious berry often spent time in Catholic churches by himself outside of regular service times when he lived candle insincerely prayed God began talking back but God didn't give Berry very good advice in fact God apparently told Barry it would be okay to kidnap someone and hold them for ransom as a way to get his business back off the ground just as long as he eventually paid the ransom back and nobody got hurt. God emphasized is that point nobody could get hurt since kidnapping went against his Catholic beliefs. We can be pretty sure this was a hallucination. Not An actual conversation with God opioid induced use Tallusa nation although uncommon and under reported is unknown adverse effect of treating patients with opioids according to a literature review published in the Medical Journal Anaesthesia an analgesic according to the report patients experiencing hallucinations while taking opioids may be reluctant to report the side effect due to fear of the stigma associated with mental illness. According to the same study to definitively diagnose opioid induced hallucinations a doctor should rule out other known causes of hallucinations because buried didn't seek treatment at the time will probably never know how much has use of Pirka Dan with alcohol contributed to. His hallucinations if at all but what we do know is the devout young Berry believed he had received God's blessing to hold someone for ransom berry. I considered kidnapping. Tony hope the adopted son of Bob Hope but he ruled that out because Bob hope was very active and entertaining U._S.. Troops deployed overseas. It seemed unpatriotic to distract Bob from that duty eighty by holding his son hostage men he remembered Frank Sinatra junior and it came to him. God wanted him to kidnap the younger frank so as to bring him back together with his father disol- saw made sense now berry could solve is cash flow problem and help a family. What's the next thing you do when you're flat broke and if decided to kidnap your high school friends brother well make a business plan of course Berry Keenan road out a plan and a budget for the kidnapping as if it was just another real estate venture he planned to seek five thousand dollars in investment which he would pay back with interest after receiving a two hundred forty thousand dollar ransom he arrived at the two hundred forty thousand dollar figure after determining what he would need to get himself back on track in the real estate world then once he was back up to his usual one hundred twenty thousand dollar annual salary he'd have enough to begin paying back the ransom in installments it tickled Berry to picture Frank Sinatra's face when he discovered his ransom money coming back to him in the mail bit by bit in late October of nineteen sixty three twenty three year old Berry finished his business plan folded it neatly and went over to the home of the one man with money who he could still still count on to listen his childhood friend Dean Torrance Berry presented the elaborate plan in a red three ring binder it accounted for every eventuality? Even the possibility that Sinatra might refuse repayment of the ransom if that happened Berry would donate it to a charity of Sinatra's choice Dean was mystified. The contents of the binder were so ridiculous he assumed this was some kind of practical joke or perhaps just berries goofy way of asking his rich pal for alone playing along Dean wrote bury a five hundred dollar check berry pocketed the check a vote of confidence from a lifelong friend and however dean would soon realize he had unwittingly invested in a kidnapping in a moment berry puts deans check to good use. We are so appreciative. Have you spending the time to listen to our show as a thank you we wanted to do something special for you. podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark season in American history. The summer of Nineteen sixty-nine for three three weeks were diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different park originals. The crimes of passion podcast covers the Manson family murders one victim Gary Henman with held hostage for two days before ultimately being killed. It's a disturbing case and you won't WanNa miss it to hear all the fascinating summer of nineteen sixty nine episodes search foreign subscribe to summer of nineteen sixty nine on spotify five or anywhere else you listen to park shows and don't forget to tune into crimes of passion to hear more about the Manson family now back to the story in October of of nineteen sixty three twenty-three-year-old Berry Keenan decided to go ahead with his kidnapping plan his friend Dean Torrance had given him a five hundred dollar investment only ten percent of what he'd asked for but it was just enough to hire a couple of accomplices John Irwin and Joe Ambler at one hundred dollars each per week Joe was a twenty-three-year-old newlywed and out of work abalone diver. John was a U._S.. US Navy veteran who had briefly dated berries mother. They were a couple of tough guys who needed cash but they weren't hardened criminals by any stretch of the imagination nevertheless they agreed to the plan partly because they didn't didn't think Berry have the guts to really do it. John and Joe figured they could take the money and humor Berry for awhile and eventually he'd get bored of his ridiculous idea. The didn't realize Berry genuinely believed his kidnapping tapping venture was blessed by God and therefore assured of Success Berry Begins Stalking Frank Sinatra junior pouring over his performance schedule casing the venues to figure out where it would be easiest easiest to nab the teenage singer to failed kidnapping attempts followed. Not much is known about either the I was at the Arizona State Fair where Berry called the plan off after quote making a couple old mistakes as he later said in a Washington Post interview next the trio plan to kidnap Frank Junior during a U._s._C. Versus U._C._l._a.. Rivalry football game in Los Angeles Keenan would go to the game and make a point of being seen by lots of friends from his old neighborhood then he'd make an early exit and joined the other two men and traveling a few blocks to Frank Juniors Westwood apartment there they would kidnap him stash him in Canoga Park Bungalow Berry had rented under a false name and contact big frank about the ransom all the while berry would have an alibi. Nobody needed to know he'd left the game early. The day of the Football Game November twenty second nineteen sixty three berry was ready to go by dawn. He pictured every possible thing that could go wrong except for one the assassination of the president of the United Guided States that morning on November twenty second nineteen sixty three John F. Kennedy was shot and killed sending the nation into morning. John and Joe were in morning to the assassination was a shock that reverberated across America. Even Kennedy's political opponents were grief-stricken. Nobody was in any mood to pull off a kidnapping that day. After President Kennedy died John and Joe kept taking berries money but any day they expected to hear from him that the plan was off with the whole country somber and sorrowful kidnapping no longer sounded like harmless boyish fun and except to bury whose plan had the blessing of God himself. Why would a divine mission be suspended just because of a little assassination berry forged ahead but he knew he had to be careful to to avoid losing the support of his own accomplices instead of telling them he wanted to go to South Lake Tahoe to kidnap Frank Sinatra Junior Berry told John and joe he wanted to go north to look for construction work John Past he had a new job already and was busy but joe was desperate for work he'd been thrown out of the house by his newlywed wife and told not to come home unless he was employed so he went along after arriving in South Lake Tahoe Berry had plenty of time to ply Joe with beer and opioids until he agreed to renew their kidnapping efforts it took several days of drinking pill popping and a title hotel before Joe warmed back up to the idea but eventually bury got his way he decided that December eighth nineteen sixty three would be the day both men would carry very guns but only berries would be loaded? This was to make sure they carried out the command from God that nobody got hurt Berry only trusted himself not to shoot it was snowing lightly on the evening of December eighth as the two men crept up aback staircase in the Harrah's Club Lodge the carried a wind box stuffed with pine cones. If caught Berry later told the Washington Post they a plan to say they were delivering pine cones to Juniors Room for holiday decorations. Joe Got cold feet halfway through the climb up to the fourth floor where Sinatra's room was but berry forged ahead Joe already carrying a gun and implicated by his role in planning the crime felt he had no choice but to follow along when they reached Juniors Room Berry took charge at least to the best of his ability berry now recalls feeling like he was flying having imbibed plenty of pills and alcohol before the kidnapping he barked over and over don't make any noise and nobody will get hurt then he made Sinatra and his trumpet a bit player John Fos lie on the floor and handover all the money they had which was only about twenty dollars berries idea was to make the kidnapping seemed like a robbery gone wrong to cover up his premeditation confused the police they wouldn't know to look for someone with a relationship to the Sinatra family if they thought the kidnappers were just a couple of garden variety muggers continuing the performance berry acted as if he was about to leave leave the dressing room then changed his mind and announced he'd be taking one of the men with him he addressed junior as you with the dark hair as if he had no idea he was looking at Frank Sinatra junior in the flesh of course this made no no sense juniors name was displayed in lights on the casinos marquee. Nobody would ever believe that a couple of muggers wandered in with no idea who is playing that night and just happened to kidnap a Sinatra <music> the two amateur kidnappers tied John Fos up with adhesive tape in ordered him not to move for ten minutes then they left with junior and without berries gun berry blushing had to go back to the dressing room to retrieve the gun his nerve said already gotten the best of him five minutes into the kidnapping. Perhaps if it hadn't been for his belief that God had blessed this mission he would have given up right then and there will somehow Berry Joe managed to spirit junior in the gun out of the dressing room and into their car they laid him down on the back seat and covered his is the snow was falling faster. Now and Berry Jerry was worried about leaving tahoe before John Fos could get the cops on his tail there one saving Grace John had no way of knowing what kind of car they were driving but a trust up Sinatra in the backseat would look look pretty suspicious. Berry made a split-second decision to do something that wasn't in the plan ask for the Victims Cooperation Berry turned around and explain the situation to his hostage if they wanted to leave Tahoe without running into a hail of police bullets they'd have to look like a trio of friends just out for pleasant drive. He'd picked the right guy. Frank Junior wasn't exactly upset. It's about the robbery as a matter of fact the nineteen year old was totally unafraid of his captors. He quickly agreed to play along believing that he was only going to be held hostage long enough for the muggers to escape with twenty dollars. There's probably the only person willing to believe that Berry had no idea who had robbed was there victim junior sat up cheerfully introduced himself and even suggested that Berry take his iconic signet Pinky ring if he kept it on somebody might recognize him it might seem odd to us peons that ring could be so recognizable as to give junior away but the ring was famous and easily recognizable at the time especially especially given the junior was slated to sing a concert. Just a few miles of the Road Berry having received unexpected cooperation so far upped the ante he suggested that junior get drunk so he could slump over in the back and look past out this would discourage cops from looking too closely at his face junior helpful as always split the rest of an open bottle of whiskey with joe down a few sleeping pills on top of that soon he was riding high like the other men as berry gun the engine and headed out of town to junior. This must've seemed like a great opportunity for adventure for all his infamous hobnobbing nodding with mafiosos big frank had never been robbed and then ridden around with the robbers to help them get out of town. Finally Junior was about to have a story dad couldn't top but bud on the road out of Tahoe not only did a worsening snowstorm blocked their path so did the police thinking fast very booted poor Joe Ambler out of the car in ordered him to get around the police roadblock block on foot. The cops were looking for two robbers in a hostage. Three men in a car would be suspicious. Joe trudged away into the blizzard while Berry and junior drove on Berry kept promising junior that as soon as he and Joe were safely out of Taco they'd let him go in return junior continued to cooperate in his own kidnapping when the cops searched the car not once but twice junior play dumb mm-hmm we could have made a scene and been rescued especially after buried tried to drive straight on through the roadblock and was stopped by a cop wielding a shotgun. The officer leveled his weapon at Berries face and threatened to shoot then if he moved a muscle the other cops search berries car once then twice there was no way for Berry to escape. All Frank Junior had to do with shout out. I'm the hostage you're looking for four and Berry would be on his face in the snow wearing a pair of handcuffs junior might have been free in time to play his show at Harris Bun being an impulsive nineteen year old junior head great sympathy for the two young men n not much older than himself who he believed to be Mir impulsive robbers. He didn't WanNa see then face kidnapping charges for stealing twenty dollars. I'm besides junior was worried about joe out alone in the blizzard. If Barry got arrested they might not find Joe before the man froze junior and joe were now drinking partners after finishing that whiskey junior figured he could ride in a car for a few more minutes to help his new drinking buddy avoid hypothermia. This newly minted hostage might well have been in denial about the nature of his adventure denial is often described as a purely negative psychological defense mechanism and even something that a person should be ashamed of but according to University of Miami Psychologist Michael McCullough speaking to The New York Times denial is actually one of the most important psychological factors allowing groups groups of human beings to live peacefully together according to McCullough denial helps humans temper their sensitivity to minor violations of trust if we could never overlook others bad behavior even a small tribal group group wouldn't last long much less a city or a country denial allows people to preserve their relationships after a violation of trust without experiencing a loss of status or damage to their self image but sometimes as with junior denial can put people at risk of serious harm if junior had been in the frame of mind to put to into together it would have been obvious to him that is new drinking buddies were kidnapping him instead instead junior drank and chatted with berry and Joe totally convinced that they'd release him as soon as they felt safe he rode with them for seven hours all the way from South Lake Tahoe to Canoga Park Acting as a Co conspirator when they arrived at the Canoga Park hideout bury a little bit embarrassed finally had to tell junior he was being kidnapped and held for ransom junior flew off the handle. He was far angrier about the two men's dishonesty than about the kidnapping itself after he'd gone right along with them even help them get by the police barricades. They lied eight to his face. That was the end for the moment of a budding friendship. Frank junior swore he wouldn't cooperate one bid in their plan now after they had lied to him when Berry asked for big francs phone number junior refused to give it to him and unforeseen wrench in the plan how was berry supposed to get his ransom if he couldn't contact the victims rich father. This wasn't one of the contingencies and the three ring binder junior even taunted him saying you'll just have to shoot me. Desperate Berry even managed to talk to John Irwin the former military man who had helped with the first two kidnapping plans into coming over and interrogating the prisoner Krizner but nothing could shake loose Frank Sinatra seniors phone number from juniors zipped lips. It was a radio news report that saved the day by now the kidnapping of Frank Sinatra's only son was national news with updates on every broadcast. One of those updates gave the name of the hotel in Reno were big frank was awaiting word from the kidnappers now the John Earn one was back on the team. The trio agreed he was the best man talk to frank senior with his navy background. He was the only one who sounded tough enough to stand up to Sinatra. John called the hotel immediately and was soon connected to old Blue Eyes Frank Sinatra himself now for once things were going according to plan the kidnappers new the hotels phone would be tapped and the hotel would be swarming with the F._B._i.. Agents so when Sinatra picked up Irwin ordered him to go to a Chevron Station and answer the phone they're big frank quickly agreed. He said he was willing to do anything. As long as the kidnappers didn't hurt his son but after what he thought was plenty of time for Sinatra ought to make the drive Irwin called the station once twice three times frank wasn't there next Frank Sinatra misses his appointment meant with the kidnappers now back to the story it was December eighth nineteen sixty three and time was running out for Frank Sinatra Juniors Kidnappers Berry Keenan twenty-three Joe Oh emsland also twenty three and John Irwin Forty two after nearly an hour of waiting for Frank Sinatra's seniors call they began to worry that big frank had lied or had somehow traced the call were F._B._I.. Agents about to burst into the hideout. John Irwin kept calling the Chevron station. The owner assumed that the repeated phone calls asking for Frank Sinatra more some teenagers idea of a prank he grew irate until frank. Sinatra himself arrived in a car driven by an F._B._i.. Agent raced inside the station and asked if he'd had any calls they could've knocked the gas station owner over with a feather. The kidnappers kidnappers had directed big frank to Chevron in Carson City not in Reno where frank senior and the F._B._i.. Were staying Sinatra had to make a forty minute drive to get to the payphone in their haste to make a deal. The kidnappers napper's failed to realize they were looking at a phone book with listings for multiple cities. They thought frank was calling their bluff. When in reality he was driving across Nevada at breakneck speeds to answer their call when Irwin finally called again it was big frank who picked up he demanded to talk to his son? They put junior on the phone but there was no emotional exchange between father and son John Frank asked if junior was okay junior replied simply yeah and gave the phone back to his captor big frank obviously adored his boy but somehow couldn't show at when speaking to him as soon as he was talking with Irwin again. Frank Sinatra offered a million dollar ransom for his son safe release following berries instructions Irwin declined remember God it told Berry he she had to pay back the money he didn't want more debt than was necessary to get back on his feet in real estate on this must have been the first time in history. A kidnapper bargained a ransom down Irwin told frank senior that they didn't need need a million dollars in ordered him to wait by the phone for instructions on the desired amount the next day berry jove back to South Lake Tahoe and went skiing in an attempt to establish an alibi he also cleaned doubt the hotel room he shared with Joe Attempting to remove their fingerprints and all other evidence of their presence finally on December tenth nineteen sixty three Irwin called Sinatra again he was ready to talk Turkey. Two hundred forty thousand dollars of Turkey to be exact Irwin related berries very specific plans regarding the ransom. It was to be carried by F._B._I.. Agents who would then follow berries directions to be given piecemeal smeal at various payphones. It was a scavenger hunt with life or death stakes. Frank Sinatra worked closely with the F._B._i.. On the drop he gathered two hundred forty thousand dollars in cash than immediately handed it over for the F._B._i.. Take pictures of every bill this way. If the kidnappers got away with the ransom it could be tracked by serial number. Meanwhile junior was back to enjoying his kidnapping. He decided he liked Joe. M.'s ler it seemed to have been berries idea to lie to. He didn't begrudge Joe his participation. After all the poor man had been forced to walk through a blizzard while Berry drove the heated car are that seemed like punishment enough Gel and junior had similar tastes in movies under different circumstances they might have wound up close friends during long hours alone in the hideout they entertain each other that it might have been why Berry took Joe with him on the morning of December eleventh leaving John Irwin to watch the hostage while the other two men collected their ransom. Perhaps Berry thought that if joe and junior were left alone again they partner up. Intern on him so it was berry and Joe who rolled up to the drop point together between two parked school buses they saw the Satchel their money must have been in it but they also saw a highly suspicious amount of seemingly innocuous activity around the drop point taxis rolled past slowly ice cream trucks circle the block. Both men surmised correctly that the F._B._i.. was watching planning to follow them back to the hideout and reclaim the money. Once junior was liberated. Berry handled the situation just like he'd handled the police blockade he put Joe in the most dangerous position slowing slowing down as he passed the school buses Berry let joe out of the car instructing him to grab Satchel Berry would make another lap around the block and return to pick him up Joe nodded understanding the plan and hopped out of the car but as soon as Berry had turned the next Corner Joe Bolted was one thing to be involved in a kidnapping. It was quite another to be literally left holding the ransom bag as the F._B._i.. Closed in and Joe ran on foot for his wife's house hoping she might take him back despite his persistent on employment at the very least maybe she'd help him hide from the law for Awhile Berry returned to see the Satchel still in place race and Joe Missing. It wasn't hard to figure out what happened. Maybe God wanted Berry to make the pickup himself so that he alone would carry the guilt for taking big francs money. Meanwhile as Barry was fetching the ransom John Irwin had a change of heart about his participation in kidnapping teenager as the oldest of the men forty two year old John looked at junior like a child not appear Irwin called big frank to tell him he decided to return his son John told Frank to collect junior on the side of the four zero five freeway near the wealthy neighborhood of Bel Air Irwin packed junior into the car and and drove him to a freeway overpass near the Sinatra home using all his navy skills to avoid being observed. John quickly pulled over till junior to get out of the car and drove away big. Frank soon arrived to pick up his son but couldn't find him. Poor junior didn't believe John Really wanted to let him go not after berries lies in south Tahoe he figured this was another trick and hid in some nearby bushes. After some time junior realized he must have missed his ride. He crawled out of the bushes and made his way towards home on his own. Eventually hitching a ride with a friendly security guard junior junior asked to ride in the trunk so he could avoid the media gathered around his family home. Meanwhile Somehow Berry managed to grab the Satchel of money without being followed he roared off in the direction of the hideout <music> out when Berry arrived in Canoga Park he was greeted by a disturbing site no hostage and no accomplice just a hideout full of his own fingerprints perfectly ripe and ready for the F._B._i.. To find but all wasn't lost berry had the money and so far he hadn't been followed. Maybe this too was part of God's plan berry busied himself cleaning evidence out of the hideout then went to find Joe. That wasn't a very difficult task since Joe was still hiding his wife's Place Berry pulled up and flashed a wad of cash joe was perfectly willing to jump back into the car now that he saw the money was real as far as the Sinatra family was concerned. It seemed for a while that God had told Barry the truth about how his actions would affect them. The kidnapping did bring Father Catherine son together at least long enough to throw a party celebrating Juniors Return Berry and Joe through a party of their own. Although there's had just two guests they spread their two hundred forty thousand dollars out onto the ground and rolled around in the bills. Their newfound fortune would be worth almost two million today but while Burien Joe were celebrating. John Irwin was having a crisis of conscience on his way out of town to lay low for a while. John confessed his role in the kidnapping to his brother. John's brother turned him in right away the F._B._I.. Soon arrived to arrest John who was perfectly happy to be caught rather than to live with a dark secret for the rest of his life. John Readily gave up his accomplices before even getting a chance to spend any of the ransom varian joe were under arrest for the most spectacular kidnapping of their generation team. Torrance was arrested two for his minor role in financing the crime lawyers were hired evidence was reviewed and by the first week of February nine thousand nine hundred sixty four the trial of Sinatra's kidnappers began the defense attorney gladys towels route presented a long shot case claiming that junior had orchestrated his own kidnapping napping in order to grab headlines or get back at his famous father while it didn't get much uptake from the jury the conspiracy theory played well with the public everywhere he went junior ran into people who genuinely believed he kidnapped himself of course that wasn't junior style. He wouldn't have staged kidnapping but he did sure enjoy the one that came to him privately. He hoped Joel Berry would get away away with it. After a four week trial on March seventh nineteen sixty four the jury returned guilty verdicts against all three Co conspirators in the kidnapping Joe Ams Ler and Berry Keenan each received received life sentences plus seventy five years. John Irwin got away with just sixteen within four years. All three men were free the psychiatric evaluation undetermined at Berry under the powerful influence of drugs and alcohol wasn't saying at the time of his crime berry sought psychiatric help and soon stopped hearing the Voice of God and his own mind but perhaps God's plan for Berry wasn't so far fetched after all as it turned out the kidnapping did get him back into the real estate game Dean Torrance feeling bad for not just helping Barry get back into the business in the first place least Sta card for him and sent him some new clients Berry hadn't lost his natural gifts over the years in prison he was soon back on top and eventually did become a real estate millionaire today age seventy nine Berry is still participating in multimillion dollar deals. He's also worked to educate the public about alcoholism and addiction funding workshops and supporting nonprofits around the country junior and big frank never really really became bosom buddies but the sun developed new respect for his father after seeing how far the elder Sinatra would go to help him sadly for junior. The kidnapping was one of the most newsworthy events of his career sure he was the first to confess his singing career always paled in comparison to that of his father by the time he began performing in earnest again his style was out of fashion junior faced criticism from his record label for refusing refusing to become a rock and roll singer or right protest songs about the Vietnam war junior shared his father's preferences. When it came to music he wanted to sing sweetly accompanied by a good band he had no interest distance smashing guitars growing his hair out long his singing career gave way to other interests including musical direction acting and conducting he never wanted for money given his father's estate and felt free to pursue? Whatever artistic endeavor grabbed him in the years following Frank Sinatra's nineteen ninety eight death junior made his final career move becoming a cover artist singing his father songs? It wasn't a big business business but it was a way to honor big frank sadly for junior he never quite got rid of the stench of claims that the kidnapping was a p._r.. Stunt for the rest of his life many thought of him as a cold hearted criminal willing willing to kidnap himself to rob his own Father Berry Keenan himself refused to let that stand he challenged these conspiracy theories saying over and over in interviews that he not Sinatra was the mastermind behind behind the kidnapping berry even spoke out on the public radio program. This American Life Berry admits that when his defense attorney came up with the publicity stunt lie Berry along with it he was a bamboozled kid who'd never been tried for a crime before he had no idea the lie would follow junior for the rest of his life on March Sixteenth Two Thousand Sixteen Frank Sinatra junior died at the age of seventy two he he leaves behind a legacy of his own musical accomplishments covers of his father's hits and perhaps most charming of all the story of a man so amiable and kind. He helped his own kidnappers evade the law. Thanks again for tuning in to hostage. We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode. You can find find more episodes of hostage as well as all of podcasts other shows on spotify or anywhere else you listen to podcasts Sir rule of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time in the meantime. Don't take your freedom for granted hostage was created by Max. Cutler is a production of cutler media and as part of the podcast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Dick Schroeder with production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Mahler additional production assistance distance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley hostages written by Yelena War and stars Irma Blanco and Carter Roy. Don't forget to check out the crimes of passion episode on Charles Charles Manson Andy Manson family murders plus. You can check out other episodes of podcasts summer of sixty nine event. There are three weeks of sensational and shocking episodes. There are episodes on the Zodiac killer the women of the man's family the Apollo missions many more you can find these special episodes and more when you search summer of nineteen sixty nine on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts we are so appreciative of you spending the time to listen into our show as a thank you we wanted to do something special for your podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark season in American history. The summer of Nineteen sixty-nine for three weeks diving deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different park asked originals the crimes of passion podcast covers the Manson family murders one victim Gary Henman was held hostage for two.

Dean Torrance Berry Frank Sinatra kidnapping Berry Keenan Berry Joe Frank Junior John Irwin John Frank joe Grace John Berry Joe Sinatra family Barry Franks Berry Jerry Dean Torrance South Lake Tahoe Berry spotify
Lucille Iacovelli

Suicide Buddies

1:21:28 hr | 10 months ago

Lucille Iacovelli

"Townies towns citing news to share with you is already started we are launching a members only version of love dumb people town I'll dump people town plus it's everything you already love about dumb people town with some special benefits to not only will be Live Oh tell jokes about suicide suicidal thoughts and depression on this show they can get real dark and that's because we've been there and it's how we cope with it from the other room it honestly sounded like you were letting your cat go just kind of get being like that's not financially hey thanks you listen to suicide buddies we just want to say right now before we start this episode we I got nothing tired I woke up and I'm tired has effort oppression man we hope it will help you it's not because we think suicide is a joke or that it would be funny if anyone committed suicide so please snow that going into this show and if you're experiencing suicidal thoughts or want to commit suicide don't do it and call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline right now Tired sorry dude sorry man I woke up tired too but then I had to I had one of those days right immediately get going because ahead to get my fucking cat to the vet dude ed to get her to the doctor I was pretty distressed yes you're on the phone right before we were recording the number is one eight hundred two seven three talk they're always there they will talk to you they know what you're going through they will hear you please stay here with us on Earth for glad get all that extra stuff once you do it now yes our loyal listeners we love you townies his widow pump it up to the next level as you for some bullshit yeah totally well I took my the again my cat groomed at the same place that are that is the best part is you'll have that sweet sweet satisfaction knowing you're supporting our show dumb people Tom Plus is available on our favorite podcast APP and it is my opinion it try this shit out do avenue a headphone on one headphone I don't know why I said that even a phone address headphone I liked the DJ look of the one one headphone Abra Abra you both know and unfortunately that's the way it is and I was like Oh no and then I come back and you're like they're trying to go to Himalayas search that Himalayas APP download it it's free listening all your podcast Himalayas then become a member people town at five dollars a month and dumb people town then click become a member is just five dollars a month and you can join up and get those episodes early them add freak at extra content that's wants you do again site for nine eleven when we were talking about how our show in New York was on the day nine eleven turns eighteen Allan Allan I'm already spending extra the Mike had been used to and and the total for this like visit and a rabies vaccine and and so I take her and I tend to do it at the same time and I have to get her haircut you know what I could probably do it myself just sent me a link eighteen countdown clock for Jon Benet Ramsey of slurs are all related to period. Oh you're being serious I'm being completely serious wow you're being Sirius Xm right now Dan still really do countdown to Jared Blow Child Save I D- next year for this podcast I do for everyone I love anytime a new baby is born I send it to the parents alive and enjoy the show Oh but I know a lot of people do that for sure a lot of people like Weirdos I think a lot of people Edward scissorhands okay we bought a Tux she's wearing a talk honestly yeah well I mean you could come on you gotta learn how to cut a cat's hair it's a lot of right well that's why I don't do it on me but I like call and she's fourteen sociality like I make sure to take her in for checkups she takes thyroid medication you know as this is my favorite thing about cats that when they're finally legal is when they die who would have every time the cat meows he just goes book book book rise it I think they're still John I wow I have one for Robert durst remember those counters that were for the Olson's yes like you know when they turn eighteen dude it's a check it every day Allan Lamb's made one on his oh she would freak out and she would scratch me all up and what fucking whatever so I I mean the reason I think that is I could do it to save money and we're talking about money right now so I guess that part's a little pull Baumbach lot coming down apparently that's just about period blood really doc my cat I mean it's a high price bitch all about okay let's put some money on the table hardcore offers here I can pay my own bill I have more money than than than stage one I'm fine with it you know just take pills my cat turned eighteen I may think you swear promises God's Way Dart you catch lucky it's got two years of sex I believe we haven't talked about this because right thirty seconds ago when I popped into this I was the one that popped into my head I was like Oh hamptons going to have a field cat does have a little bit of like not a Tuxedo look it has this weird kind of haircut that looks very austere damned so you do it tecoma that one may mean him in Paris right away and I was like so I was trying to use regular soft language and be like yeah I definitely cannot afford that and he was cool but sure from your I mean her pay the bills I have a little bit of it indecent proposal notice your elderly father both of our Virginia Hi Prom People WanNa kick me fucking crazy but I'm taking my catcher prom two hundred dollars more so weird I don't know why my brain went to like the darkest possible thing I knew you were talking about your cat but it's like okay I'm so horny I'm so yeah but my cat my fourteen year old cat I always like mentally prepared to pay two hundred dollars and then the I don't know why I remember this right now but I like I was in this fucking like weird weekend leadership program in high school that I got I get my I get all my podcast I love Himalayas all you have to do is download the Himalayas App that's h. m. a. l. a. y. a. in search Ford and he's haning right there cancer it's on one if I was in Iraq from the island she's mister fantastic I'd hung up at your cats fourteen dude give me a call we wanna make like one of those shoes that called me up selling me and and so I was trying to vary because he's nice and he's like a thing that she will need but doesn't resume as a child to get into job Walsh College I know so weird a resume the up call me later I won't I will not be who's coming off all right I'll do it I'll do it uh well the deepest in my heart is the original which is funk Okay Hound you know I acquaint like oh we're we're cutting your cats here today oh what say you can't we'll put her down the next logical thing we do like in an after thanks for college at the beginning we're kind of limited especially because I didn't do any activities and I also though was suspicious I was like wait so like everyone just writes the same well yesterday when we were recording he did the what's up cat academy just got like the dreadlock had it's just oh cool yeah I'm a I'm a boy scout and I volunteer at the Jewish community center like literally it was like I don't know oh so way I'll pay all say a charity stepped in to see your father has cancer if you let me fuck him one time easy were science fair projects nationwide in the pairs zone who like all of this goes away just one eight this racial beliefs dude I know it's like all right it's gotten crazy glad to have collected this random sampling of the and you wouldn't know it unless you go there and this fucking like huge cornfed like the most American looking dude raises his hand and the guys soon as you might be different days not gonna pay for something clearly the cats dead dude yes you and he goes if you grab a squirrel ahead and smash it against a tree it's guts fly out it's asshole he's not wrong not wrong he's not ron wrong he's not Ron Goldman booster and like the bath and clean I especially have to get her haircut because he's a long hair and she gets like no shit dude we talked about this how she gets big dreads in her hair Nicole about everything where I was brother like applying to Harvard and you're like Amy Angle I'm sure it almost sounded being so nice of like yeah no no I can't afford that but no shooter in the head these things so it was like this stupid I was in one of those leadership things in and then like the first day it was retreat or people from school a couple people from every school in the area when in the first day I don't remember why but the guy running the thing was like chosen uncle no I forget what it was called but it was like a good thing to on paper one of those things uh-huh loading up at the Lugar I mean dude it's going in her brain here in a second if he was trying to up sell me on a better gun to us which is because I love Pussy siding over department so bad call by the teacher I mean no nothing and you really like open forum so who has the most crazy Ron's fault I'm just saying I say that he was a bit of a wrong golden and he was a bit of a J. O. Simpson and then he oh yeah it's like well why it's so weird I think the thing honestly though in retrospect is they just want to make sure you're not doing what I did which is just sit on the couch and be you know he was a bit of a wrong Goldman if you can get my meaning if you catch my drift so you're saying that uh-huh Oh man gto I always call the judge eat out you know what I mean because leaderships Oh sorry suicide buddies I'm Dave Ross I'm Hampton yet this is a mental health and comedy podcast where we joke around super fuck in dark shit like depression anxiety suicidal thoughts suicide if you find his joking around about a really dark thing it's not as we take lightly it's because this is how we deal with it live conversation seen the wire yeah are you guys wearing a wire or you lester freeman is this podcast fucking why uh I hate my current wife's I'll eat out anyone but her seventeen year old boys into the same room now someone say something I mean he's right do you wanna go to Clive Barker he's down the hall teaching a Film Class Tell the horror movie the coroner corners I understand what's the Promo Code Quip Quip Dot COM Slash detective John What's that Oh my God what's the under his hand there it's a promo code for still jeans yeah we got a lot of house podcasts it's true crime stories obsessed I think we're all rain rain we've been doing a lot of podcasting back and forth yeah oh I know we have a new shirt up suicide buddies thread list dot com I is this case going to the cops Oh hey it's still wrong gold judge Ito said that wrong I'm sorry lying to get to the bottom of this I'm a little bit of a murderer you know vet bills total opportunist guy staying a cancer how about one uh-huh keep thinking about it aside detective is just a nerd talk about him just any interesting fact and the first one this kid I'm from upstate New York upstate New York super rural it's like very red neck marrying I'm marrying myself well we'll talk about a countdown enough come on being yeah yeah we designed by Scranton specifically for Halloween season it's like a big fucking from before and now I realize I shouldn't have said any of this stuff out loud at all this week in mind at all mental health problems they'll just assume you're into normal Demon Chit Normal of Satan wanted the government to burn down normal why are you doing your volition joke but I love that a wiretap is a cops only we've been talking for a long time about putting it out and I'm glad it's coming out October a hallow- Halloween dude all hallows Eve mall murder cops are just murderer knows when it comes down to it too active on the on the case like solve the crime rate said there's a seeming trail the dark person prefer Halloween to Christmas rations bloodshot like sprays shared it looks like someone came in with a shotgun and just go to everybody and then your kid who's crazy oh man I'm looking nooks you're a Christmas Guy I'm a nightmare before Christmas Guy Yeah Ace George just doing it with his hands in his mouth holding Airorne I don't even like birthdays I prefer Arbor Day birthdays every time well Halloween Christmas is especially funny as thing because it's it's our black metal info or short short shorts we have new shortstop by our shorts eat our show burying himself death metal logo made it looks so honestly you could wear this at any death metal concert and you will blend in and no one will know that you have the decoration lewd there's the bloodshot ladder with the child's chalk line the simply when you just look at Aristotle and say wait are you recording this minute when I'm on a podcast be like is this is this of psychologically terrifying things like when I opened the door I say things like your canceled you know what I mean you do it like a little faulk what was I gonNa say I don't remember well that's all right wow I was going to say something that was like aac they're both cute they're always that's scary it's cute they're both just true you put like oranges five zero and the bailiffs put them up on their shoulders I I put up a mailbox George Bush is union you think of wearing a wire as a cops only podcast that I've tried to figure out that joke for so yeah yeah man when i WanNa do something really scary on my lawn I put up like a Halliburton logo the program is going to be we're sitting in a lecture hall and he's like let's start talking a we're GonNa talk about some interesting I need some interesting facts from it will show that around in your window instead of red how sensitized are we yeah where it's like you can have like a murder tableau on your front lawn as your go see Hampton on tour thank you to your welcome I see December December I'm putting up to date so my website Hamson yet dot com big one I want buddies especially to do because I know not a lot of people live in Wilmington North Carolina but I'm doing date December twelfth in Atlanta come on call me Jack Skeleton and you're a cop man just like we say that kind of feel that way but it's like Oh dude it do it now this is this is the Joe Joe off Hampton got it like I mean this how I would deal with this is how I would normally be talking you're basically doing kind of a wire tap on zero and horror movie and I can't look at their phone and they don't have a twitter it's right in the death penalty you're you're fine with driving the I'm trying to punish Wilmington venue out a Thursday show seems like a real venue and it's going to be like superfund matter of fact if you live in Wilmington drive to Atlanta yeah no I just didn't know I couldn't really tell from some of the emails back and forth because last time I was dealing with during that hurricane I couldn't tell if they were kind of like was to be on par with like comedy on state and Shit like that Oh yeah oh wow and they also like a nice cameras yeah you should I kind of was honestly the industry or the mental health profession try not to say committed suicide taking your own life they say made an oopsy really oh yeah dude it's the same guy that ran street that comedy club which was like one of the few like incredible comedy clubs as people have talked about gambling with my life weird way they didn't cancel to like day before sort of thing side enough I was going to be flying in isn't locked up yet but beyond the Cam all right now we were doing the suicide in history this week that luggage it you're psychotic and confident like they are no one will know that you are a coward say it looks a much more of a choice yeah more of a choice and like there there's something wrong with you or or you fucked up and I don't know I guess and so if everyone could go to the Atlanta one instead I think it's a fine venue but yeah I don't know it's a dead crow is that what you're doing dude I've heard that room is so good let's start our own underwear brands and we'll go it you undies and you just like ask people for their underwear you know yeah yeah I can count your daughter or son or whatever however they are bad kids you did a yikes he made a boom yeah you're right I mean we've tried so many times but you know sorry leading over to the body by the way this case is being solved by me undies I'm dot com for a sensible fit for men's underwear you sing it okay all righty Saturday Austria Sunday out Vienna Virginia and I don't know the date is releasing exclusive episodes only available to members dom people town plus episodes will be ad free and available earlier for members than anyone else the person who I'm sorry I I almost said committed suicide and I it was taught to me recently that that is a people in thank you so much in emails buddy's buddies but he's edgy dot com if you have a recommendation and we'll talk about her after the break yeah and if you write to us also tha dates and I'm trying to set up this thing in Vienna Austria doing like the Nuremberg trial it be giving John Lewis the gig be yeah it'd be it'd be like one more loss you know and I just didn't want to do that anyway so yeah please come check out the woman totally you know I think it's totally world but it is something to pay attention to we shouldn't say committed suicide because it committed suicide makes it sound like it's yeah Her name the woman who took her own life is Lucille Yucca Valley and this was recommended by a listener actually Charlotte King is her name she ah yeah man you really scare people yeah in the sense that I don't want you to commit suicide but you understand what I'm saying I think anyway don't commit suicide that's why I'm so terrified of people hurting themselves you know just about anything with related to the show We always appreciate that thank you so much all right let's do an ad for toothpaste suicide buddies threatless dot com was the point Oh also or hurricane was going to do it I out of defying sounds like maybe more you were playing with your life wasn't canceled so technically I would like means you can we get the money like what Tom can't yeah we don't have me undies what about what's the does a ghost which is a dead person you like walk it up and you're like Oh look at that yeah you're like audit is cute nowadays put in the effort this year on you guys the Crotch lists my big thing always sing the break that'd be great aerosols dying just off Mike Yeah Living I'm recording hey no I wanted to spell her name because I thought it was lack of Ellie but because the font that is used on Google own life in two thousand ten so this is like I normally don't do I normally don't pick recent ones but there was something about this one that made me stupid surname is Lucille Yucca Valley she lived in the Cape Cod area of Massachusetts and she died she took her coughing into a rag that's aristotle that's not me that's not dave when you hear the moaning the sex wall moaning aristotle loan I WANNA go the L L I I guess I'll spell I name I first name Lucille L. U. C. I l. l. e. last name Yucca Valley Aco V. E. L. Capital is look like lower case els you know what I mean and so but literally I had this thought I was just looking at Google and all these pages and I was like the worst host of all time the Azam of Louie Anderson and family here being this dude who they're startled the aristotle yeah I mean Aristotle's dying basically folks showed us off Mike there's a bit more recent but you know it's funny how two thousand ten we say that but it really actually was like about a decade ago yeah it's so funny I got it yeah now Lucille W E I R D Al my name is your L. Gain TV and today we're GONNA be talking about Taco Grandes why does every single site start her last name with a lower case L I was I just thought it was lack of Ellie and literally no one was kept realizing her last name and then I was like oh it's an eye pus weird I'd sign of disrespect they're showing and it turned out that it's just that I'm noticed but then he keeps getting turned on Hamptons leg Oh shit and those noises are you buddy all right we're going to Israel we we're going to talk about Lucille on Saturday and I went to use the bathroom and on the wall was one of those like memes that's like a printed on would you know what I mean like and the picture of the cats hanging on the whole wire but this was a big piece of wood and flowery font right next to the fucking toilet it's true friendship is Tanqueray make guessing her name is Lucille Yucca Valley spell it I a C O v yeah they're like garbage means you can buy a gas station and there's always like flowery lettering fifty percent mom fifty percent wine totally the first one ever was hanging there there's something so funny to me that you're so horny you can't help but like sex MON owner Oranje all all you're going to give me a big shot I that's what he's done I'm sorry he died. Aristotle died of Horn so addle punished way we're not including this into the microphone I'm pretty good I'm punished in his own Meghan it's honestly regrows storable oh Arizona while relax how's this sound who's there off like no it's a fully formed adult shit here Kushner adult he's an adult Nazi yeah totally funny I agree with your life I actually agree with you that we shouldn't follow her advice but for a different reason and because I like I had I did a lot of research I really like studied how he actually acts and Joe Dimaggio is like a really like proper fucking sanely smart she was like a crazy smart person who who basically her her her big achievement a you know her like yeah I wonder if my baby is going to be a Nazi born nineteen ninety-six yeah and it turns out they're old enough to have hey my baby's kind of do a Heil Hitler the weird thing that came into the cultural zeitgeist for about half of summer dude I wanNA fuck in diner in Pasadena with his little baby legs saluting on his head what you can't see Hampton his I couldn't do eh nearby at target let's say like live love laugh shit like that Bert woman to publicly hack the idea of male straight sexuality and so she like baby baby herself in order to purpose in life advice from a woman who was murdered for like fucking too many people in the government's like well like no one knows that but me so I walked on stage and I was like talking Children Edgy Oh effortless and I was just like what does fuck no it's not it's not like I saw an Amelia uh-huh damn this is giving me way too much joy now I'm GonNa come you should throw out anything in life that doesn't bring you joy gods oh fuck it was so much fun but as a result I did a lot of research on Marilyn Monroe and I found out that like she was in like how I'll just see stuff like oh that person was born in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight and it'll be like Oh certainly a child this relationships at all difficult well I guess it's in the garbage take dude I one of my favorites was and this is GonNa make me like this is ruined multiple children's lives there are like it's like sociopathic piece of shit who refuses to grow as a person the reason I think we shouldn't follow her advice is that she made it up as a character wa trick men into talking her and I know it's just like that quotas blowing wind upwards underneath it who did a brutal late imagine you have no idea about the subway context of that photo one of those like this is such a famous image could show it around the world everything and it's like if you just don't know that extra level of the subway underneath Marilyn Monroe and I don't even know if she said but it's always attributed to her where it's like if you can't love me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best yeah it's like I don't think we should be Joe Dimaggio it was actually one of my favorite characters I've played yeah good casting it was awesome do because I realized on the drive there all these jokes written and then I realized like here's the one thing about this story there's really not much she wasn't famous she wasn't a public figure so there's not much record of her life except for you become famous yourself seems exactly she was like I'm still you she was like gaming the system ooh does it look like Dave refuses to live in a world of imagination which I don't like imagination by the government I feel I wish I knew her man because I'll bet you it sounds like from reading even the littlest bit about her when she went home at the end of the day and she was like guys the President I can tell you fifteen people he murdered man right after he comes she got a facelift and a nose job from Dr Joel Feldman at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston Feldman was the presiding and you'll see what I mean so I don't know who she was I know that she was a gardener I know that she lived on the coast of Massachusetts she was a gardener beneath the surface achievement was she realized how men think of women and how we characterize women and how much we sexualize them she was like the first the Marilyn Monroe's life is relatable to your wonder we like best case scenario she committed suicide worst case scenario she was murdered asking him and and posting constantly and broadening the language she was using to super cynical but it was like the Maryland man sorry gotten way off well Maryland Charles Manson Charles Charles Charles Manson Monroe what what was public of her own choosing and what became public because of who she wrote things online about as you really have to drive home that Israel because aristotle is like coughing into a rag yeah as we're doing this and it looks like he's dying of TB Yeah and we can wins you know and then yet by two thousand two she's literally calling the surgery botched and she's calling the doctor butcher on the Internet so she been posting about this and complaining about it for four years after the surgery and the doctor was like talking to her about it and doing consultations and stuff off but nothing would make her feel better because I think you I couldn't find exactly what was happening on his end but it sounded like he was trying to address it and posting photos on the Internet of her face and neck and that they looked wrinkled and saying that actually it didn't work and it fucked up in one form or another she wasn't happy he said there wasn't anything more he could do and so all that happened was she kept posting very kind of well to do person on top of being a famous baseball player and he spoke like this hello I'm Joe Really practiced how he talked and then I realized on the drive there that he looked on as to doctors did the procedures Dr did the facelift under his care another doctor did the nose job she felt good about in her surgery at first but then pretty quickly was dissatisfied with how it looked in she started calling Dr Feldman leaving messages it's actually on this right 'cause there's maybe not a lot there's not a lot there are some photos that you can find in all show you some but reasons that there's not a comprehensive explanation of this story is that there are two very obvious and polar opposite sides briefly back to Hampton's helpful pretend fart Fart fucking farce so let's see valley she lived in Massachusetts here's on the Internet there are two perspectives from which you can find info half of the articles are written from the perspective of doctors and half of the articles are written from the perspective Oh does online and got more and more and more aggressive and about the one surgery about the one surgery from his doctor Dr Feldman and it got to the point where she was oh the doctor fucked up so then from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and two she slowly but surely posted more and more and more the thing is that like I don't know I will say this she it is to a certain extent subjective and like what's funny and one of the she was in her late forties in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine hundred ninety eight when she did the first thing that started to be a part of the public eye which was I had some point recently 'cause I did the Marilyn Monroe roast the fictional roasts on we were just talking about what we were talking about that off Mike played I actually don't have photos of this surgery there are two that she goes through and the later one I have photos of okay like really shitty she's started whereas at the beginning she was like hey I don't think it's working is there a problem and he would like call her in and he'd be like no no no this just happened of angry patients yeah so there are blog posts there are a couple of blog posts or articles from the perspective of people that are like these plastics that she had the surgery I look at the photos and I'll tell you it looks like she got a facelift that that's also definitely as so forties you go to the doctor it just basically ignored it and she would post more and more and more and more were there any photos I mean you you said that you've done pretty much the most comprehensive research but it seemed like she had that before she got the surgery to know he put that in a wrinkly neck I think is the best the drapes I wanted to look but then again I don't know I mean maybe like some people get it and that's not what happens I don't know suspicious and scared of the whole that I would say it was it wasn't horrifying you know what I mean she looked like a person yes her face was sagging down a little bit she had a wrinkly neck around so much to me at my worst you can't take me on my bathroom like dude what is genius woman was playing a character to make fun of you what are you this woman and it's interesting there's like I don't want to talk about this from the perspective of either one is right or either one is wrong I'm trying to present the facts but the reality is that when away at some point I don't know when but botched as maybe to botch seems extreme but also I don't know is it supposed tres come off more as beauticians they come off as like here's what's best for you like here's what's best for US probably not too did not do it do anything really conductors fuck up all the time have you heard about this woman and then there's like medical journals that are like people complain about doctors all the time and it's not fair have you heard about it a bit plastic surgery like there's tons who reconstructive plastic surgery which is super important but there is this odd thing that plastic surgery a lot of the it's a physical so yeah so the spirit goes bwah she's posting more and more and more she saying Shittier and Shittier and shittier things she posting more and more much to your body you're putting it a little bit at risk just by going under you know right I mean a lot of people who die in surgery just die from being put under in eighteen what are you dead the we gotta have eight occupying troops on December twelfth think she's hearing all this information like no no no their state more photos because you know I'm sure she's I'm sure it is getting worse she's aging more and more as well and she's like posting more and more like d statements that were inflammatory from the Internet. Wow Yeah and that's not on board with that ruling well this is the here's some of the things that's the way most people just dies they can't be knocked out I can also tell you as a person who luckily as my life progresses continues to be just like America is obsessed with this flatulent woman disturbing it's the most oh he ignored it for a long time but was he ignoring it because he's a piece of Shit I don't fucking know well the one thing that is separate a little town everybody I see eighteen to twenty teen that's the only people I date under twenty over eighteen nineteen year old her for defamation in local court he won got a restraining order she was no longer attracted to people my age that I would implore you to just you are great I set up the eighteen year old looks like a far if you don't know like she shitting herself that's what are you fuck the president like what and she's like I know Sake Holy Shit what if this is like one of those things where people I just sometimes wonder when people are going to get like this is kind of a harsh ruling where it's like you can't say anything a little bit of scrutiny did he botch it actually like I'm just like was at that noticeable it wasn't it wasn't so bad you did like I said she called him a butcher she sent letters to the doctor's telling them to rot in hell she offered in the letter to send them her severed tailed photography until in two thousand two Lucille is now fifty two years old apparently this fell Dr Feldman said this in an interview a patient how to message him write him letters talked to any of the doctors at all he also got a court order demanding that she remove all of her photos that were misleading or got into his office holding some of Lucille's photos from the Internet and was canceled the surgery with him and was basically like fuck you you're an abusive surgeon and so he sued and it may be permanently wiped off your face when you least expect it he's so like there's reasoning yeah I mean like no I mean yes yes also know that it's tough because doctors get a lot of like every doctor gets some malpractice suits yeah just like whatever you do you're going to get some bad reviews take this I mean I guess I get fucked up that's one it wasn't being yeah and that's stupid me almost at the beginning where I'm like what does she look like out this and asking for help for years you might be driven to extreme things like saying rotten hill run hill you know really how do you tell someone off that can't be then like brought up in a court transcript yeah you know it's like rotten hell so you can fuck you hell be able to get any answers fair now exactly oh totally man I am the most flipflop so I'm glad you had that reacted extremely that's how it feels but I also again that's not fair of me it's not because I don't know her and I didn't see here during that time you're making a good point I mean it's definitely upsetting as harsh language but she isn't saying I'm going to kill anybody she said enjoy your smile while you can it may be permanently wiped off your if you remove that element I'm getting harassed yeah right kind of feel that way about definitely use on that line but but you're right if no no no no no no experts you should be done baby remember baby I'm GonNa stay over this great last forever it's so tough that's the thing I was like I do I mean she's almost opening what public form hosting about it so it's like it's weird it's on the line you know there's a lot interpretation like yeah and I guess like if you the other side of that is if you've been posting sorry for the person she was doing it to even if it was deserved a court is going to be like Oh okay step one is this stops that's all I mean by that especially silence or something but the other is complaining and being like excuse me through me no but my point is that like whatever the reason she was sending angry letters she was sending to have visual is on it but all I can see from it right now is just apparently she was so agitated by the surgery that for four years she's like I think she means when you least expect it you mean oh she's saying that to the doctor I read it as saying it to the doctor Oh I honestly when you said that I thought she was head after she killed herself so they can look at it and see what they did wrong okay that one is over the line this is a direct quote from the letter enjoy your smile while you can about the court order because I will say I thought just from a legal standpoint if you just look at getting angry letters it's just like about this that's so interesting you went through anymore I'm glad that you're thinking about you're thinking yes because I disagree one hundred percent I like inch that is harassment and sure yeah it sucks that this went wrong and so that's her side of it but if I think okay siren bells line we'll also I'm coming from a place of having read all this stuff and I'm not saying this I'm not at all saying fucker or something I'm just saying it's cool that we are both were coming at it from the two sides because I literally think if I put myself in his shoes this is four years of someone posting publicly about me and sending me letters sense so now there's this next detail well sorry I just thought of something that I think could be a good point okay which is just it seems sad that basically the someone who is a better plastic surgeon yeah so like I say this partially to reinforce what you just said we're like there's some mental health issues at play here like I have all this information and it sounds like definitely she went through something hard that was bad for her and then also there she we'll right which is that's okay so the other thing that's important to know is that so that happened in two thousand and two unbeknownst to that entire group I'm him and she literally told him her faces Saggy I wanna fix that from an old surgery and so he did the surgery and she was again very happy with it other people like enjoy your smile while you never know when it's going to be white permanent we'll maybe that is why she man stupid no no I think maybe you're right court looks at a case like that and it's just like you know who's harming who rather than like this woman may be clearly need some sort of like mental health help feud right that bar letters now right no one is a public safety thing you can't just be angry in a bar and like possibly causing this isn't necessarily just one way it's not cut and dry there's an interesting source literally no way of knowing I mean she there she did an interview with the Boston Globe the very responsive to her which means that she was going through this with him in two thousand two while getting sued by Dr Feldman and you can't find letters that contain things like I'm going to send you my severed head that's over I'm just saying like she was doing things that were objectively angry and scared first of all just with threatening suicide like yeah suicidal thoughts alone is mental health but then relate to other people as like deathrattles for coming that is calming on who wasn't associated or knew about this at all I think but also someone who was far away enough from it that they would be like better I think she did research on from the surgery see she said that she couldn't close her mouth all the way she said that it had affected her neck muscles really badly she couldn't swallow right and she couldn't breathe right if she tilted her head back that's what she said and so Dr f Lee was apparently and this is really interesting because two thousand for the year following that surgery he in the interview said originally I admit I wanted to name and shame them now I want to warn other people this dangerous business is something bad happens you may never asserted doesn't we don't know what was the one before that the one of the big one is saying that she'd send her severed head to them after death rules about both things so like os doctors never talk to each other Oh this is why it's been scrubbed so my because of the court case there are two cases within months was calling and e mailing him almost every day yeah yeah oh and this time she said that she had respiratory problems people in two thousand one she went to another plastic surgery in in Indiana named Dr Berry Epi and she purposely went far away from home to find here this is dangerous in your yeah yeah so in two thousand one she went to an Indiana surgeon named Dr Barry EPA lead to get a facelift those two cases raising guys listening to this podcast and share it immediately before it gets scrubbed their names I was like matter whether it was deserved or not. If you're angry at a bar you're getting thrown out whether it was your fault you're pissed off or not that's kind of how I feel in a bar you'll get thrown out but they'd have had it scrubbed and those doctors probably at this point I've talked but at the time that people were writing about it publicly they didn't know each other they weren't aware of the kicked doctors always practicing never getting right malpractice makes perfect the doctors L. Way they're k. you're talking about the case we don't want you to talk about the case I look it up Dr Apple is still practicing and when's he going to get perfect starving podcast network it was kind of freaking out but they were working together on it that's what it sounded like and and yeah it sounds like he sent her to therapist you that she is not rooted in reality entirely maybe I don't know totally either way lawsuit yet okay no no this is like during the process of the doctor trying to help her and I'm not oh yeah like the tests were what do you mean was one of the test to see if she has like mental illness basically like this they were literally sending her to therapy thing is that that Lucille literally was like I do not have that and stop going to the therapist yeah so like it's one of the tests right she started blogging about it during this period of time and so after a year of her blogging about it and you're talking to the doctor Oh yeah the doctor had her referred to and I couldn't find any more info on that so I don't really know what that means but apparently she was being very nitpicky with these tests and very like aggravated he was very responsive to it like very very responsive he would call her in and do more and more and more tests and and just kept saying oh so much yeah and also he like brought her in for other consultations consultations with other doctors and apparently they would do tests on her and she pissed to a psychological therapist who diagnosed her as having body morphing disorder and well him like trying to find out her problem I don't know it sounds like for the year following the employee surgery that she I almost feel like a low level body morpheus is almost just like what the coulter buddy has giving you but like yeah I mean that's she was like no I don't stop going to therapy use it as a thing of being like show they're crazy especially what this case seems like they're using it just to help I don't know maybe I'm wrong I again I guess I am the type of person to err on the doctor's side I'm learning about detour honestly maybe just like a little I don't know perhaps not has some sort of mental health issue is to get therapy I think that was okay as far yeah I'm yeah I don't know like I would think one of the tests for say this lawsuit would be like plastic surgery is I don't like my body I have to change it which is fine not crazy that they said she has body just more of a disorder but it is crazy that her that he doesn't think there's actually much wrong this is normal I think that's like what I gather you are X. amount old doing I had very specific ways she wanted them to do the tests that fucked the tests up sadly this two lines in an article that I read uh-huh I honestly think that almost just goes hand in hand with plastic surgery sure it's odd because it's so culturally acceptable that it's like man myself so maybe that's a little unfair of me but it does seem like from what I read the therapist was like body morpheus and she was like no I don't fuck you yeah partially because she's been through this a lot you know Turn a fuck with them maybe trying to fuck with them the whole case open that she has legitimacy definitely yeah if you WANNA look that way yeah do it I don't care yeah but if you like your obsession is like I'm never become the way my face looks and he's like I totally get you let's change this this this also he's like thrown in the Jiffy Lube Extra Services Youtube personality surgeon let's work on your personality for why you perceive yourself that way yeah you know and I don't know that's just so weird that those two things have kind of polar opposites and I tend to be more on the side of a therapist but I will say that like I don't know maybe you know if you're the right kind of plastic surgery and you could get the right kind of therapist who okays and says what you want and I don't know yeah I feel very weird about plastic surgery for sure man I feel like I I want everyone to do what they want and I just wanted to be appeared to sit for a good reason yeah being listened to so she's like really really freaking out and then in two thousand nine Dr Appleby notices that he's basic she's been doing it so I mean she's been on a fucking HBO documentaries saying his name and so you know she could do like prison timers really that he is losing one or two patients a month like one they'll just cancel he's regularly losing patients so he totally totally yeah so this takes us to somewhere in two thousand two where f Lee stopped responding to her messages because of her quote bizarre and irrational behavior she two thousand to two thousand six she continues posting and blogging about it org yeah he also because apparently like she has made she is like going to therapy that's what it seemed like boy it's like plastic surgery and therapy steam so at odds right like plastic surgery is like you go into a document like I don't Dr Fuck you made me a monster or whatever and it's up to public scrutiny after that like even if you don't agree you're like well I don't want to go to the so I will say to respond to her perspective again and I'm trying to like I go back and forth between both she's now like years and years into not be sues each sues Lucille in federal court for defamation this time this is her second time getting sued for defamation federal they go doubt plastics or in the HBO documentary once again she threatened suicide and the quote is hopefully they'll listen after I'm dead perfect you'll never find yeah exactly I'm a Monster House won't fuck me an insight do this or whatever there's no surgeries that will fix that then there's a deeper problem a lot just like she did with Dr Feldman and then in two thousand six she gets her story into an HBO with it forever I'm always going to have to ask every institution every time to pay me for my records instead of the guy who makes fucking idiot against her constant urging he made he bought a bunch of URL's and made a bunch of angry websites against doctor Epp Lee Aca Veli she she weird weird Al Yankovic was running out of money and so she asked for help with money and with filing Eh fucking McDonalds I wanna get my own name trademark that's funny cost like seven hundred bucks almost three something malicious behavior it's also different than Dr Feldman because we're in two thousand nine now and so like Yelp is in full effect and there's like a lot of doctor of USA God the minute someone else makes a website that's like I'm Dave Ross rude I'm Dave Ross my name trademarked and sue the other day that fucking art I dunno which federal court I would imagine a lower level federal court not the Supreme Court yet otherwise they would have said it and no one on earth has Hampton that's a name for Insane Pete we've talked about that because when you're album came out like her big site going straight at F. Lee was losing face dot net clever right that's good news my favorite parts of this whole thing yeah yeah he not only did he help her with the paperwork but but if you went to a therapist ceiling face it'd be like oh put your you know like but except yourself except yourself and you're so much better than that you refer sucks duck duck suzy them funnier more clever wise school one of the sites that she made herself and this was one of the a using his name on his site on her sites it kind of sounds like every new I'm McDonald humidity called plastic disasters shit they're reading my mom. This is show geared towards hamptons across radio DJ in Seattle. Fuck in that guy on the red sox. I'm sick of that Guy There's Oh you don't Google yourself come on your Dave Ross doing comedy his way his style was great okay so she's getting sued in federal angry rude and she did as a woman like like a kangaroo court yeah you must have made a cartoon where the judge was a kangaroo nights in ninety eight so great in ninety a that wasn't really a concern but in two thousand nine people are on the Internet being like one not to make these sites he sounds crazy to yeah there's a quote from him there's a few from him where he said Lucille asked me to help her with the case but she really was there is a little like Oh shit it's under the wrong Dave Ross and like you were like oh it's like yeah it's a common name and I never even realized yeah I was like Oh shit I'm GonNa be an papers and preparing the legal documents and stuff from her friend rich Berge Ron and rich guy rich birger on this is all trump that's like gigantic with him like literally like he's Got Shit on his head like super serious as it is want to do yeah apparently she she did though like ask rich leases yes so he said that he also said that outrageous methods that's the quote outrageous methods yeah face black dot com it became I mean like it was originally in commentary in it's like sniper Charlie Hebdo cartoons if you ever saw so what made you get into like political commentary and he's like it's the final line has been crossed and like one a good one coped she also got a real kick out of his attorney wearing a gun cap wow scared the judge in the case of doctor lawyer Oh he's crazy he bought Dr Epeli's sucks dot COM Who leased has that review yes so he sues her for that he also he was so nervous about it he literally he had his name trademarked so he could sue her for dollars dollars in damages in court costs just take it from her face and an injunction against her like permanently fucked two thousand ten comes around and epilepsy wins the case he wins forty thousand the they needed to use outrageous methods to draw attention to the case because his big thing rich pers- was that it was an attack on the first amendment because they were trying to as for the dot com so I think like she was the first one to make a defamatory website aside from her regular blog so one of her blogs is still up it didn't get taken down Bob that's Jim Carey started making art and I like floored with was floored by the way I attacked Ebola's lawyers and the judge time she seemed to enjoy my crusade though I remember her commenting that the judge looked better as the case but God guys feel like a little bit attacked could fucking God she's dead twelve days later they're like you win the case it's crazy it's like yeah now did they not know that I guess too like stop her from saying these things Nice this is the ideology of terrorism he also said quote she she needed to be an advocate for others so she can't speak to him or anything she can't approach him a year new kate was him at all money right well twelve days before this this injunction was issued he committed she took her own life can't stuff saying committed suicide it does sound bad took her own life let the bodies hit the flow she let her Yeah so I mean he like one it's called it's you can find it it's cosmetic surgery ugly side Dot blog spot dot com you can go there right now Dr Sucks Dot Com has been taken down please make sure the corner of course wouldn't follow no her demands or whatever but that's the brave like political commentary and it's like a picture of Mohammed was like stink lines above him got him as is what I think is personnel to say something otherwise no one says anything and again like cut to a picture that's like Donald Trump's got tits I don't know in what capacity I don't know if there's a suicide note or if she sent a letter or something but she asked that a comprehensive autopsy be done on her head and neck almost couldn't function as a person he said quote just getting groceries to to her car was a struggle and then here's the big thing and like maybe and so after she took her life Berge Ron was interviewed and he said Yeah that like it had basically all of it taken such an extreme toll on her that she just you get forty grand from her estate Dead Day God days that are those mean things about you thank God they weren't true as you take her dead money out of them she definitely had some sort of form of mental illness that was probably giving exacerbated by a lot of this yeah and that's probably very true where he's like really to prove that her complaints were real and the coroner did not do that I would like an autopsy on my neck my back my pussy and my crack this is really interesting quote from him in the end all she really wanted was an apology it sounds so simple in meaningless but it means so much more than anyone realizes and that's a direct quote from the I hate these two plastic surgeons you could upload videos and it world Canada amy yeah totally organically became racial I do not crazy scary Dr Ebola's evil Dr aboard wanted to make our he's a multimillionaire who has resources to like really incredible paints and

Dave Ross Sirius Xm Robert durst Seattle red sox Aristotle Google America Jared Edward scissorhands Dan Olson Lucille Dr Epeli attorney Meghan Kushner Berge Ron