1 Episode results for "Chana Hardball"
How to move forward with China; and should Beethoven be 'cancelled?'
"This is an abc podcast. This is tom switzer. And welcome to between the lines on radio. National always great to heavy company. Coming up should beethoven be cancelled the growing course of critics slam the german composer as being creature off wash privilege. Two hundred fiftieth anniversary of his birth. We'll pay tribute to beethoven. Stay with us. But i china's intimidation campaign against camera beijing to fourteen point list of grievances via the australian media. Second wine joined beef. Bali timber lobster call among our exports that the chinese communist party has imposed tariffs on. And then that tweet. This is the tweet of the posting of a digitally altered of an australian soldier about to slit the throat of an afghan child. The chinese embassy issuing a bellicose statement the rage in roar of some ustralian politicians and media was misreading and reaction. It said to deflect public attention from the horrible atrocities by sickness soldiers and to blame china for the worsening of bilateral ties. So what's going on. He and asha camera respond. Jeff rabi is a former australian ambassador to the people's republic of china and he's author of china's grand strategy and australia's feature in the new global order. That's just been published and it's available in all good bookstores jeff. Welcome back to the show so some great to be back now. I your thoughts about beijing's response to australia in recent weeks so we have that list of the foreign complaints the wind terrace and of course that tweet while a say i up disappointing to see the slights that have been made After the two quite constructive comments at the triumph prime minister a last week quite clearly. The prime minister was Diplomatically signaling That there was a strong wish to start a process of getting back to some sort of more normal relationship between the two countries the product make though it sounds dramatic when you run those three things together the way you have done that certainly not the same thing. And i'm not sure that they're all necessarily coordinated. I mean the fourteen points clearly seems to be freelancing by the embassy on matters that well known and in the public record in any case at a very odd way of putting something out if you leak it to a channel nine television crew that seems to be pretty casual behavior by the embassy then the tariff spo there has been a processing trained for months on the wind tariffs and i do understand that that was the normal process and the strain companies were busily making written submissions as part of that process. And then the tweet The present time it sounds like it's been contrived by the chinese foreign ministry as individual action. it was a tweet that was particularly widely on social media by a now nationalist artist and twitter and the foreign ministry spokesperson on his private twitter account. Pinder to name and so it's philippine. Middle level action doesn't really look to millions of any of these really coordinated broad cross section of the australian people just looking at the y. People who've responded this week is there is outrage and surely win china. does things like. This doesn't make it harder for people like you because you've been an eminent company on this issue for several years now. Hugh watt a bobcar. Pass gas on this program. Of course the former prime minister paul keating. Doesn't it make it hot. A all of you to make the case that al leaders should try to rebuild trust with such a regime yet. I can understand the public outrage especially the media is going into overdrive steer and just as you have said running all these things together as a coordinated action from the state It does make it harder to get sensible constructive discussion going a story about how we deal with these things. I like to find myself in such august company as you outlined. And you might add gareth evans. Many others that to the group as well but it certainly history doesn't help and it's difficult context in which to conduct foreign policy. What we're seeing is what is like to live in the situation with china relationships In a very poor state now. Other people in camera that i see welcome this their peopling camera who have the view that bad relations with china are inevitable. This is the new normal. We should get used to it and lupus it while the questioning myself. And the august company you've being linking me with. Is this the best interest of australia. And it also basic question. Your what has australia down to bring on china's in this way why you think china is picking on again. Picking on is quite pejorative. They're not doing this to other states. Our other key point. And i would phrase that differently tom i would say how is it that astray amongst like minded friends and allies other liberal democracies in the world in the region why's at the trial has become an outlaw and i think that really needs to be part of the public discussion. Isn't the reason. The australia is so over exposed to chinese pressure in beijing. Nosy so the chinese leaders going to inflict pain on australia whenever they can't australia. And not the other like minded way boy more. In other countries we ought to forty percent of our exports to china. No other country has that kind of exposure. I prefer countries in the region. China is by far the largest trading power. I mean that exposure would be the same for korea south korea which is liberal democracy in the region. it would be near that level. For nearly all the countries in the east asian region china is the dominant economic patna of all of the countries in the region and that is just a fact at its reflects. The extent to which china has grown as the dominant economic power in east asia. Alexander downer. The former. Foreign minister says that now's the time to reduce our exposure to china. But what everyone is saying. There's nothing new novel in that. And obviously when people start to realize that we are going to have for a long time a difficult and challenging relationship with china's manage. That's a fairly obvious. Point to make interesting from In addition to being former minister former director of the board of while clay. And very active Proponent in boosting. Australia china trade relations phrase time as soon as minister and i work very closely with him in that and i think we achieved a lot. So why wouldn't you wanna diversify every sensible business. Every sensible company diversifies the port made over and over again on this aspect is that it's going to be very hard. Because of the absolute scale and growth and prosperity of china. You are a foreign policy realist. All gripe house ruthless and that includes chana hardball at every turn and the stronger. China gets the more likely to throw its wide around now to the extent. These realist analysis is correct. How on earth do we solve. this problem. absolutely correct agree with all those points. Another point that needs to be made. And you don't make it much tom. And your pride yourself as being a realist and that is the relationship is asymmetrical that is effect. We need china. More than china needs us. This is not a comfortable place for us to be but it's a place we are. It's a place where we're stack and will remain and so We need to work out how to manage that relationship and we haven't done a particularly good job of a judging by the state rewritten today. So although you express yourself in a different way you essentially gray with the foreign policy realists professor join me shauna regular guest on this program and he argues that his china's power increases its definition of its national interests will grow and then beijing will seek a survey influence in areas on which its future security and prosperity dependent in response. The us will go to great lengths to stop china's rises. It essentially. your argument is well up a poet. I'm a great Admire of joint mish as well. I differ with him on a couple of points but his analysis and arguments have been hugely influential in helping me shape my thinking about these But i put on sphere of influence is. I think that's already happened. I think china is the dominant paranagua this at length in my book in eurasia from the east china sea to also china is the dominant parent. That's happened largely because sanctions against russia poor economic performance by russia Pushback from from europe against russia has meant that brushes had to cede to china's ascendancy in eurasia and so very part of the world. And i think we now live in a world of michigan talks about a world of two great powers with boundary orders and in the question then becomes is some equilibrium at stable between the two. And i believe there is. I i that will add like may china of the cost and the speed at which would escalate into nuclear war. And that there's a need for the great powers. And i think biden is as shadow this to cooperate on the global commons in things like climate change pandemics or could be legal immigration so there will be areas of competition and i think pretty much. The water is like that. And that's the will we have to learn to navigate. It's not just me. Sean got peter jennings at sp paul debate. I knew among others who would highlight at china's escalating defense build up the buildup of military outposts beyond its border in the south china sea. It's persistent cyber espionage. It's pumped up nationalism. A huge propaganda disinformation campaigns. What's happening in hong kong. Possibly taiwan all of that. That doesn't sound very painful though. Jeff it's very comfortable world we live in and that's the last third of my book is called australia's disturbed future and we can't shy away from any of this. I'm not suggesting that is. I think there's a large problem is a lot of foreign policy destroyer being the revision mira lousy. That's starting to be updated quite quickly. Which is welcome but i think when dealing with china and getting a policy settings we have to come to grips with a couple of questions is china and existential threat to try and i argue. It's not the bulk of the book. Talks about china as the constraint. Superpower will rather but presumably committee is bound. And what is china's intent might be we can project the most evil designs on china's intent. What does its capacity. And there's a huge difference between intent and capacity. And i think we have to realist deal with the capacity. Not the intent. Now some of the things you mentioned absolutely powers behave in their own interest in an often behavour in ways which like. I just want to pick up a point on on hong kong for example because hong kong's have a tricky in this respect because it's actually part of chinese territory. It was given back to beijing communist. I july nineteen ninety-seven by the british colonial powers without any consultation with hung on people. And at the time i was there there was a huge outpouring of fauria that hung's going back to the motherland back to the mainland and i was happened is when the demonstrators like last year started early for independence and burning chinese flag and Hurry up the british flag itself effectively. All bets on the one-country-two-systems were off. And what's set of hong kong practices contact with counterproductive. Think so simply. Twenty forty seven speak collapsed into the president. This is between the lines with tom. Switzer making sensible straight is place in the world jeff. Rabies new book is called china's grand strategy and australia's future in the new global order. Many australians would support library coalition the position on side. The federal government's foreign interference laws the decision to reject y y five g the digital network bid and of course in april the coal for an inquiry into the origins of the coronavirus and yet china has responded in an overwhelmingly hostile mana. What could what could have done differently. Well first of all. I absolutely agree that Sovereignty has to be protected. And these meshes. Each runners-up is perfectly reasonable in terms of national security and our sovereignty. It's how we present opposition on these matters. Take away for example. We were the first by years to introduce a fully comprehensive ban on while clay. Okay that may be justified. We didn't need to make a big deal of that either i. We didn't have to have the most dryden voice on the south china sea in the. Hey judgment down. Twenty six to eight. We anti-fraud interference laws absolutely necessary. Should have been there years ago. Probably we didn't have to have the prime minister of the day speaking chinese paraphrasing bouncy doom to make the chinese lose face and it's exactly the same thing with the inquiry inquiry into the origin of the lowy institute paul at this stage if it showed that seventy seven percent of australians. Think quote we should do more to resist. China's military actions in our region even as it affects our economic relations. Is there something to this argument. That security wise trump's prosperity in international politics and to the extent that china is seen to be threatening our national sovereignty. We will always go with security over prosperity. That's right absolutely but then the question becomes. What is the threat. Have real how extensive. And what is the cost. And i think there's almost no discussion that those who had the security dimension about what the cost is going to be once you start talking about cost people in ask. Well have rules threat. Have because what's happening. I mean we hear politicians endlessly talking about protecting values. I'm yet to see what families are under threat or if they are the threat what what has happened. I mean i don't see Astray has changed. In fact i think the attitude as indicated by the lowy poll has substantially higher than against china. I didn't see china making inroads the toll so the question is what price we paying do. We need to pay this price and discussion about this. Well some people might to say that china threatens our academic freedom elaine pearson who's on faculty at the university of new south wales and she's the australian director of human rights watch. She climbs who work was Attacked by the chinese leadership or at least the academic authorities at the university of new south. Wales will worried that the chinese leadership would be upset by some of their research so they pulled down that initially at least they pull the on some of her research and mess just one example of some fees that china does threaten our academic freedom. How would you respond to that. I respond exactly That we need to hot net defenses. must've concede anything of that and in fact in my book have lung chapter on the failure of chinese soft power. How it's being unable to really project soft pair because it all has to go through the narrative of the chinese communist party and in that chapter i talked at length about the confucius institutes and again what i see. The confucius institutes are in retreat around the world precisely because of this and precisely because The west is strong and capable of having its reaction to china If it's under threat. So i think that that the battle is being won and yes it will be a period where we have to learn what china's up to learn and discover it then we can had offenses against jeff that brings us to washington change in leadership did. Do you think the incoming baden administration will change the nature of the us. china relationship with most deadly. The rhetoric language attitude. And everything will change. And i think that's going to be very helpful for stray. It will provide policy space for frustration. Secondly biden's might very clear in these foreign policy articles that he will want to pursue issues on the global commons climate change. Obviously he's not one pandemic as well. Maybe issues like illegal people movements and so on to do that. He'll have to cooperate with china and to corporations china you need to have a constructive bilateral relationship mind you the. Us and many other countries have many slip electoral relationships with china. Much better than we have. I mean they will still have high-level official political context and so i think We will see a different approach by the us to china but there will be still areas of strategic competition and as dumb power the us will continue to to resist the ascended pow. Am i right in saying that you agree with you. Why is essentially alone and we can't rely on our great and powerful friend. The united states robert menzies once called america absolutely and jomon john mccarthy and many many other people in the strategic defence community ending the diplomatic immunity and that leads us to the conclusion book. That is wouldn't matter how much money we spent on defense. we should spend more on external defence. Should spend more to hat now. Internal defense resided security. And so on but we can never spend enough to defend the country. I only hope is through that are greater diplomacy and we need to get back to resource seeing a diplomatic efforts Be more creative in diplomatic efforts. And i think that's the key point but doesn't cambridge you that already. We've just signed a defense agreement with japan. We've got the quadrilateral relationship that includes india but we also expanding our diplomatic and economic relations with much of southeast asia. Anyway what we have begun to do that and much of it is very very recent. The thinking of the book is it goes back eight years but much of a very recent and what i welcome in a realist. Sense is for example how sudden embrace of vietnam albeit with just follow the us down the past. But i welcome it because We've now embraced A one party authoritarian communist state with terrible human rights record. I can think of another state in the region that those adjectives comfortably apply to public data because vietnam leans against china on the quad. Though i have always had a different point. I still maintain that point. The quad consists of three other countries which is china's strategic competitors. China is not a strategic competitor of australia we have no historical issues as angus houston a couple of weeks ago said in the guy he was the fulmer head of the idea of china is not our enemy. China has ongoing territory. She's with japan. India and of course With the us in terms of Disempower challenging with dominant power but we are not part of that group and yet we are is seventy s to be part of the quad. Better are would say to refashioned. According to a tourist octo something and bring in countries like vietnam new zealand. Indonesia korea you need to broaden that so it's not seen as an anti-china coalition which currently is a prison. Jeff always great to be with you on radio national top my pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for having me. That's jeff rabi. He's a former australian ambassador to the people's republic of china and author of china's grand strategy and australia's feature in the new global order. Well this month marks the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of the birth of ludwig van. Beethoven an recent weeks a chorus of critics has emerged to bemoan hogan's fame. According to an article in vox quote wealthy white main embraced by heaven and turned his symphony into a symbol of their superiority. Important the vauxhall article goes on to say quote for some other groups women. Lgbtq people people of color bite hogan's fifth symphony may be predominantly a reminder of classical music's history of exclusion. Well then is this. This is chris watt. He's an assistant. Professor of music. Theory at the university of massachusetts is riding in slice magazine. He calls classical music buffs to adopt quote full naming and to stop calling beethoven by his last name. He goes on to say quote. This alarming practice simply fortifies quite centuries of systematic prejudice exclusion sixes them and racism. Well to put a different view and to defend beethoven. Let's welcome back to radio. National jacob. tilbern. He's editor of the national interest magazine in washington and a senior writer at the absolute sound. Can i jacob. Thank you tom. Now does by hoven represent white privilege in the league isn't quite the contrary. Beethoven himself emerged from humble circumstances. He grew up in the small city of bonn and had a very difficult upbringing. A father who is a drunkard could beat him as a child. The family had very little money. Beethoven had to rely on benefactors to further his career and he only hit the big time when he traveled to vienna and Started to study under frontiers of haydn but unlike mozart nothing came easily. Beethoven his whole life was a struggle for acceptance and he was not in any way an elitist only in terms of performance in accomplishment but he dedicated his third symphony to napoleon who he initially saw as a liberator of europe and beethoven believed in the equality of men in the universal brotherhood. You've written in the washington post. The bite hyphen wasn't in mar of the french revolution and his spouse The valleys of the enlightenment. He did indeed and he marks a zora in classical music because prior to him most musicians had in fact been court musicians and they were reliant upon the aristocracy for their livelihood and beethoven struck out on his own he a self made man yes but bite husband did have aristocratic patrons in vienna road. There was no way around that and but they did not exercise hold on him that frontiers of haydn essentially almost an indentured servant at the esterhazy court in hungary beethoven would get commissions from aristocratic patrons but he in no way was controlled by them. He was an independent man. My guess is jacob hilburn way mocking the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of beethoven's death and we're talking about in the context of this cancel culture So your point Jacob is beethoven never trickled to the aristocracy and that no way did bite. Hogan's passion for liberty express itself more powerfully than in these music. that's correct both in his opera fidelio which is about Liberating a political prisoner from a dungeon which was a coded message to the habsburg empire and in his ninth symphony which has been repeatedly played including by leonard bernstein after the fall of the berlin wall to celebrate universal brotherhood and mankind and those sentiments are powerfully expressed in his music. Is you mentioned. Fidelis this hoven oprah that after war two. It was played off the Well across the to celebrate the downfall of hitler right and because the australians and initially welcomed. Hitler i don't know if we call it liberation or simply the end of world war two in austria but it certainly was played to mark the overthrow of the nazi tyranny. The truth is that he expresses a powerful drive for freedom and even human rights. Yes so by hogan's passion for liberties best reflected in these music but the critics are out in force and this she has really been a watershed moment for this so-called cancel culture. We'd seen all around the world a western world at least statues being torn down. Desecrated statues of great figures of history and there are calls to discriminate against people. Who have unfashionable views. But it might surprise a lot of people cancel. Culture is starting to to influence Great musicians heavy. You count for these. well let's face. The cancel culture is running amok in western civilization and the interesting thing about western civilization is that it contains the seeds for its own revival. If you look at beethoven he is a rebel. He's not a conformist. He's not a white male elitist use modern parlance. In fact. you could seem kind of freedom. Fighter the western tradition contains the ingredients for renewal. It is not. By definition oppressive caller this is unadulterated nonsense. That is being purveyed by these cancel culture proponents in so despite what the detractors i jacob. The moment has not arrived for bite hyphen. Rollover jacob great to be with you. Thanks so much for being on radio national. Thank you tom. Jacob hilburn is of the national interest magazine in washington and a senior wada at absolute sale. How fitting into wrap things up with. Bite hogan's ninth symphony first performed in eighteen. Twenty four and remember. If you'd like to hear our earlier contrarian segment on how cameras should deal with china. If you'd like to download hostile percents of the program. Just go to abc dot net dot edu slash aren and follow the prompts to between the lines or you can download the podcast via the abc. Listen i'm tom. Switzer from abc's radio national with a bit of beethoven hope. You can tune into between the lines next week. You've been listening to an abc podcast. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.