2 Episode results for "Catherine Andrew"
Anne Ortelee's August 15, 2021 Weekly Weather
"Hi everybody welcome to or at least weekly whether my name is an or. I'm an astrologer here. In new york city at the bright red desk and in today is august. Fifteen twenty twenty one So we are having the hammer of thor with mars Over the last couple of days and this week we have mercury moving into that hammer of thor And that will take place on the seventeenth so we are really feeling. We had venus under a couple of weeks ago. We had mars on it the last few days. And then now we're gonna have mercury. Go through it so it is a himself sore. Bring us to consciousness. That's one of the things you can't miss them when they take place in your life in the world wherever you go. Wow wow that's a. That's that's big i. I didn't really see that. I didn't really i didn't really Wow that's big so we've been watching it unfold and it's unfolding in our lives as well as in the world around us and so a lot of people are feeling a little bit I'm a little surprised or a little shocked by how things go down or how fast they shift or change but that is what hammers do you know as somebody said you know nails nails don't look does. Ag let me go into the wall. That sounds like fun. you know. The hammer hits the nail and then they'll goes into wall. It's just how the work how it happens. You know it's just what hammers do. And of course you know people say well if you just hammer you're gonna you know everything. Looks like a nail to you so this week as mars when through it. We had three malefic forming the hammer mars of courses. I'm olympic in virgo saturn. I'm sorry pluto is the other malefic In he and heiress who is the third olympic are in a square. And they've been in that square now for two years. This is the fourth next week is the fourth of five next week. After next is the fourth of five squares that they have but Mars going through their brings a malefic energy so a couple weeks ago and venus went through there. You know in new york state. We had the the women accusing governor cuomo of sexual harassment. And now as mars went through there he quit. He resigned Mercury goes through there. This week Gets her on the seventeenth. So we'll find out news. We'll find out things of course in the world these planets urine issa's on a world point and you're an stationing. This week he stations And goes retrograde on the nineteenth so the five days before in the five days after he's in an earth signs that we noticed him so we had a earthquake in haiti. We also have the country. Iv afghanistan Having a major shift in its power structure. The president left today We pulled our embassy out. We're sending more troops in than we withdrew withdrew twenty five hundred and we're sending in last radio. I heard six thousand now To make sure we get out of there safely of course we're leaving behind a country that is rapidly. Changing urine is rapid sudden unexpected changes and as he stations and stops to go. Retrograde until january We have finished our forward motion this week. So there was a whole evolutionary push. That was taking place with urine is going direct while saturn's retrograde so with him going retrograde planets in the heavens or retrograde right now all the outer planets and so they're all saying revise your structures right so we have pluto retrograde we have saturn retrograde we have jupiter retrograde we have neptune retrograde. We have pals athena retrograde. We have chiron retrograde. We have heiress retrograde and then this week year in this joins the pile so with the outer planets who are the structures of our world all going backwards changing shifting. There's an enormous shift and change in terms of our focus. Where we're going. What the new direction is going to be. This will be experienced everywhere. Not just with us. But we've been talking for the year you know you're in a saturn says change change things have to change and so changes have been pushing and now is your in a stop. He's change guy he's stopping and saying okay. I pushed as far as i can. I'm going to go backwards now. And stopping on a world point fourteen. Forty seven fifteen tortoises world points. I'm three thirteen minutes away from a world point so i i've officially changed things. Okay now. what backup until january. The rest of them are all backwards until the end of september. So this is a really really important time for us to look at the structures in our lives that want to change and grow in new directions and that still have to be revised because we still have all these retrograde planets until poodle goes direct and then saturn and then jupiter and neptune guy run and the nearest Yeah so we've gotta we've gotta ways but this is the this is about as big as the potential underlying changes. of course we're seeing. Covert rates skyrocketing I had You know bemoaned a little bit when they jupiter went into pisces. And they take off your mass. I'm like no no the deltas coming. Delta's coming so our job is to really watch between now and when saturn and pluto go directed at the end of september if another variant starts we start hearing about another variant somewhere coming right because this is the time frame when they're hatching kinda like cockroaches almetco bugs or whatever kind of think of that as yeah. You know. there's a story there that wants to evolve and take place and do something you know And and understanding. This is an important time for all of us. we're all evolving. We also have venus shifting out of virgo. Which is the same. She's not that thrilled with and going into libra which is a sign. She likes so that's helpful. The sun is in the sign. He likes mercury's and assign he likes. Venus will be in the same. She likes so. The personal planets are all reasonably optimistic on some interior level. It might not be showing up in the world just yet and that's okay but with that shift and then later in the week. We have a full moon on next sunday. We have a full moon at the last degrees of leo and aquarius. Now remember we had a full moon a couple weeks ago in the beginning of of leo aquarius. Then we had the new moon last two weeks ago. Are we go at world point and now we're having the full moon Which will happen on sunday next sunday. And then the son's zips into virgo. The moon zips into pisces and the grandchildren and fire which we've had running up there running. Fire fire fire very little water in the sky. Very little Any there's no water so we've been seeing the fires really burn. I mean it's been good for hurricane season. We haven't had a lot of hurricanes but we have had a lot of fire and so the passion and the fire the intensity that we're fighting with and We wanna recognize that that passionate intensity and what we're fighting with and why we're fighting with it is really an important component of how we move forward with this energy. It'll be a little more internal this week With that hammer of thor was mercury going through the pluto aris square and the next week when arison pluto meet up not this week but after this and then they have a fifth square in october. So our job with this as mercury goes through that handle it becomes. The handle is to watch what we learn. Venus said okay. I'm gonna tell you the stuff that's been going on. And she's in virgo. So you know she. She had her words but maybe nobody listen turn. They listened to her but they didn't really get it on some level mars went through. We definitely saw malefic. That's been this last week. The wars the cova virus the governor of new york resigning. The you know the shift in the change next cups. Mercury and mercury says okay. I wanna talk to you about a nuanced way of thinking about things. Mercury is in virgo. Which is one of his favorites times. But he's not there that long and we're greenberg always giving you precise communications about things you need to pay attention to I was talking to someone on friday right before the hammer hit and they reframed. Something for me You know what someone had said to me. And i went. Wow okay and i believed it. And i said it to this person and they said you believe when they told you this and i said well yeah that you know of course. I believe that that you know that's what they said And and she said to me. Why did you believe that. Why didn't you look at all the examples all the all the stuff you have all the the examples of what you said versus what you What you would they actually did. And i'm like wow big concept because of what did they say versus. What did they do so this is what did they do now. We're going to get what they said right. The next part is what they said. And i think it's important for all of us. You know this is a this is a portal. You know there was a lot of noise last week about the lions gate about the lionsgate. I just think the whole world going through big change. I'm not just going to give it to the lion. Like everybody i know is going through major major changes and he doesn't really feel like there's a lot of support out there you know. It feels like there's a lot of overwhelm. there's a lot of. Oh wow you know like how do you know in the news not to say. It's an always bad but it certainly isn't optimistic right. Know it's people fighting and people yelling and screaming. And so i think the space with the personal planets inside they like me innocent libra mercury in virgo son. Leo you know. Find a space where. There's a piece in a creative and you really get down to the well. What's what's important because those three little guys plus marsden virgo standard rate against all the other planets opposite them retrograde kinda with their arms crossed looking at them tapping their feet very stern. You want kind of look and say okay. So what is my options. These week this week. What are my options for how. I'm going to proceed and you want to focus on your own knitting as my mother used to say if you were busy beating kind you wouldn't pay attention to other things going on in the world so this is a good week to focus on some kindness to say okay as mercury goes on a world point. What's the kindness. Mercury's gonna come to square the nodes fate. We always have a choice here. Moon is gonna come to join the nodes of fate. We haven't choice. We have options. Venus was gonna come to trimbe nodes fate the north not fate and sex tile south notes. So those are all really positive forward motion energies and even though the world looks like it's really crazy and we got that un report. I completely forgot about the un report that we're on fire. It's like okay. Well what can you as a person do just you. You can change things you can take action in your own world. You can do stuff with the people that you love and you care for you can care. You can be kind. You can work in a capacity that helps others in some way shape or form and that will help this energy shift. Feel a little more A little more appropriate and it will also help you. Not feel so tired lot of asteroids this week around music and the employment importance of music pallas and neptune are really feeling Very deeply emotionally connected. The sun's gonna aspect you but jupiter also rules music and you're in this of course is on a world point. You know we have been new aretha. Franklin musical movie being released And i know i loved. Aretha is one of my one of my favorites. I think i know the lyrics style. Oliver songs But you wanna find your own Your own source of inspiration from the words you're at your own idea of what will what words what music. What inspires you. What gives you comfort. What helps you. This is the week to really work for your own personal comfort and with mercury. Going through the hammer of thor. You may get some news that you're not thrilled about but you may get some news. That is life changing or you may get news. That are both life changing. And you're not thrilled or life changing and you are thrilled about because it really changes the direction in which you're heading right so our job with this is to say okay you know what is it. What is it we need to do. How do we need to get there. What does that look like you know. And how how do we create that energy in a new positive way. That's how we do it. Slow and steady incrementally Is we don't know no running. This is This is a long long marathon. you can walk. You don't have to run. You don't have to make best time. You just have to keep moving. So that's the energy of the week. Keep moving Say some prayers for the people who are in some kind of Life altering situation. You know i have a few friends. Who are when i just read on facebook. A few minutes ago was in an accident shadow to loretta. Say prayers for her. You know my assistant. Kate whose mom died last week Kind of watching the shifting and the changing energy of stuff and. i think it's important. I think if we appreciate that the shifts and changes are taking place. It's important and i. I do want to thank the folks who wrote to kate That they were lovely notes. I'm gonna forward them off to her Like i said. I didn't really feel comfortable putting her private information out on the internet but if you worked with her over the or met with her over the last seven years she was. She really did all the emails she was kind of the front of the face. She and rose were the face of the business but she really didn't ninety percent of the communication with clients And so our job with this is to To kind of say okay. You know for the next couple of weeks. We're going to hunker down until those planets go directed the end of september beginning of october because we're revising revisiting restructuring and even though the planet is the sun goes into virgo this week. We're going to really feel that kind of forward motion change. He's going to be in virgo for thirty days and mercury is in virgo. So they're gonna get a lot accomplished Venus this week goes into libra. She goes into labor tonight And so she's a happy little camper and libra so she's going to be very pleasant. You know well. She's in libra for a few weeks. And mercury goes into lebron the thirtieth so this next week is a really powerful week in the world And your job is to kind of come up with your own internal vision. Well all the other planets are going backwards saying revise revisit if you find yourself revising revisiting your house you're cleaning out things throwing things away releasing looking at old photos all that kind of stuff retrograde. Invite you to read. Words are redo revise. Revisit reorganized give those all an opportunity. Redo your plan. We update your website. All that kind of stuff very supported also this week You know. I've talked about things at different points in my Our journey together. I am going to be working and teaching actually The week the last week of the month of september the twenty fifth of september. I'm gonna be teaching at omega institute up in rhinebeck new york from the twenty four th to twenty six. It's going to be astrology. Consciousness and the great shift. I have a link on my website and early dot com or astro and dot com. And thank you to all the people that pointed out the penis ads. I'm still working on the symbolism of the broken venus but we did upgrade it. we had to do You know some running of it was. The website wasn't actually infected. It was the google things but we did the whole thing. We did the website we did the google. We did the thing and hopefully no more penis popping up when broken. Pena's actually broken peanuts. Ads popping up but omega. We're going to be doing a conference. The issue is you'd have to be vaccinated. Go their their provex place. If you've never been rhinebeck is beautiful. It's gonna be gorgeous. It's the fall We've had a good amount of rain this year so the leaves should be beautiful then and it's that week of the twenty four to the twenty sixth so it's very weekend of that weekend And so i'll be speaking with Four other astrologers k. taylor in from california maurice fernandez in from sedona rick levin in from seattle and catherine andrew who lives in new york like i do And this actually one of the first in person astrology conferences that there's been in two years so we were kind of like i think we're going to be the first. We are the first you know so we ended up. We are the first It's not a huge group at this point so it would be. You know all the proper protocols but consider coming And if you've never been to a major they have great food. They have a wonderful gift shop. It's a beautiful campus. There's a lake. There's a canoe you can hike. You can meditate in the woods and people are in universally lovely. So hopefully you'll be considering joining us so the information's on my website. You can click there for details and it starts friday night and it runs all day saturday and sunday night Sunday till i think to lunchtime or something like that. Okay so this week. Let's talk about the moon's So today we have a closing quarter moon which takes us back to november fifteen of last year. So if you started something last year. I someone right in he did. I signed up for this apartment. And it had palmetto bugs and cockroaches in both and i've been fighting with my landlord. Does that mean it changes. I'm like yes opening square. It changes so think about what you began last november. Fifteen th on the new moon in scorpio So the moon is in scorpio. Today goes void tonight around eleven or five. Pm and enters saj at eleven twelve pm so goes moon in scorpio goes void with a nice sex south of venus. So that's a nice closing aspect and then on monday and tuesday The moonies and sagittarius going void with a textile to jupiter viramune air jupiter sex style positive expansive energy nine forty three pm on tuesday night. Then the moon goes into capricorn. One fifty eight. Am on wednesday morning and it's in capricorn. All day wednesday all day thursday going void at seven fifty nine with the conjunction to pluto And it will go void and it'll be void thursday night and then it goes into aquarius on the morning of the twentieth at four forty nine. Am it'll be an aquarius on the twentieth or twenty. First the twenty second going void at eight oh two. Am on the twenty second on the full moon moon opposite the sun and then moon will go into pisces. Eight forty three am on next sunday. The twenty second. And it'll be in pisces. On sunday. Monday and tuesday going at five twelve with sex style so the only day that has hard moon endings and that means it's good for ending stuff and getting rid of things that is eighteenth and the nineteenth when the moon is on Pluto means pluto as a closing aspect that also the nineteenth is also the day. Urine this stations this week. Now you're in. This is an earth We know that he has five days before five days after. And you're in this rules. Earthquakes changes in the earth. So we had the earthquake in haiti with last. Yahoo was seven hundred. People dead Watching the shift and change of stuff and then seven days behind that which would be the twentieth the twenty first twenty second twenty third till the twenty fourth so we have a lot of shifting and changing going on with your stationing The the donald blend for days the dvd's The ones that are going to be particularly intense. We're gonna find the seventeenth pretty intense because the sun include her and a big old argument that day. You might get some difficult news on the sixteenth also. But it's news that's not in not unanticipated. And then the back half of the week disillusionment on the nineteenth moons all about disillusionment but disillusionment on a level. That you kind of knew was going to happen anyway right. So it's an element of Well i knew that was going to happen. Yeah you did. and so. that's part of that's part of the energy on the nineteenth. So it's it's a little hard but it's hard in me. Wow wow that's hard that's hard. You know that kind of energy as opposed to That's hard to not unanticipated. So we're gonna watch for this revolutionary shift that we're going through and then We'll be able to take really affirmative action. One smartest gets passed his blockage which he does this week and he kind of takes off and he enters into really creative phase once we get to next week so it's a it's a nice energy. The moon's and saj of course our philosophy philosophical wisdom seeking liking to learn new things the the moon in capricorn is all about Structures that need to change and be revised and revisited and then the aquarius moon has a whole community. And then pisces of course is deeply emotional The twenty second next sunday's pretty powerful 'cause we have that full moon but we also have that day the sun and moon both shift out of air and fire into orthon water so we've got these grand trains and fire in the sky. Which is why we've been having so many fires all over the place but it's going to shift to earth and water. We're finally going to get a little more water. Which is good. Because that's part of the the issue with why these fires that dixie fire out west and the fires in greece and italy are burning. You know is because there's this greek you know everybody goes ooh grandparents or great grandparents are great and they are but they they also mean too much of too much of so the fiery and the passion and the push you know that whole concept of what am i belief systems. Why do i believe it. You know and as an astrologer looking at the melik with the hammer of thor and they're you know they're going. Oh my god. Afghan cells afghanistan cells so fast. I'm like well these. The taliban are religious fundamentalists. They believe what they believe. The army the people that are you know paid to defend. The country are paid to do it. It's not coming from a fundamental belief system about how the world should be so when you put the fire behind the belief system you get fiery belief system now. I don't certainly agree with their police. Systems. but you can't deny the passion of it you can't deny the intensity of the fire and so when we see all this fiery stuff going on in our culture where people are fighting the school board meetings fighting over the children of moon. Aquarius right We're ju- saturn and jupiter and aquarius. What what about the kids. What about the mass would people are really fired up about their belief systems and when we believe something we tend to dig in we tend to dig in and we tend to fight more passionately so if you have a passion that you wanna fight for this is a great time to do it because the energy and the heavens totally supports fighting for the passion fighting for what you believe in and if you just kinda look at it and you go. Wow they're really passionate. I'm not. I'm not passionate about that the way they are. Go find what you're passionate about because there's so much passion in the sky right now you know if you hook your little wagon to it. It'll take off If you want to of course so we're watching the sun go through this. Incredibly impassioned thing we also have a fast moving finger of god this week with the sun in leo in conjunction neptune and in conjunction to pluto or quin kong's to them and the sun is going from twenty to leo to Zero virgo so the finger of god takes place to fifteen through the seventeenth so we were going to be making faded choices then around the direction of real life. And we're we're going. We have our annual sun opposite jupiter aspect on the nineteenth which is a kind of cosmic moment. Yep that's what i think. That's what i believe. That's the plan happens every year. Mercury this year this week is going from six virgo through eighteen. Forty seven virgo now. Eighteen forty seven is the degree of nine eleven. So that's going to happen on. August twenty second and we also have macron world point. Squaring the nose of fate on the fifteenth. So we're gonna get faded news. That's today and i think a lot of that stuff ghanistan stuff But also you may get an unexpected news about people that you know or situations. It's on a world point so very often it's a famous story or famous situation and mercury is squared. You know this week On the sixteenth which is We're we're changing that in shifting matt and we do have mercury forming. They hammer sore. That's going to be on the seventeenth. He forms the hammer with aris in the morning and then pluto at six. Oh seven so we're going to watch goes down then on the seventeenth and of course as mercury moves into it. He adjusts things on the sixteenth. And says okay. 'cause he has an adjusting aspect to saturn. This is how we're gonna do it. There are a couple of health aspects this week. There's a lot of health energy in the sky with all the planets in virgo either recovering health. Getting better or having something happened where you have to deal with your health matters totally take that in hand also mercury meets up with mars in virgo on the eighteenth now. Mars takes two years to go around the cycle. Mercury goes around the cycle every year. But so he will meet up with mars again. But this is a new cycle from mars point of view for two years and so that meet up that takes place on the eighteenth and mercury. Mars is a lot about what the new direction is their meeting. Up at twelve and virgo on the world point. That happens to be my son midpoint so curious what will happen that day and mercury is also parallel to mars. So we're really important decision making happening on the eighteenth with mercury and mars in terms of okay. This is what we're going to do and then mercury rolls out has a nice trying to urine us and tells you this okay. This is a plan. That's going to happen on the twentieth. And then the two of them are very excited to get working on it. I remember mercury is friends with everybody. He's one of those guys that everybody talks to. And so when he meets up with mars even though mars and saturn or not friendly and they just had a big fight. Last couple of weeks they are going to. Mercury is going to say. Hey you know he kinda wanna work. What kind of want to work with you. Venus as we mentioned is last degrees virgo she goes into libra on the sixteenth and she has a lovely aspect with knows the state on the twenty second. so she's looking to partner collaborate work with people working in creative idea. She may come up with some really great creative ideas. The nineteen th through the twenty second. Because she's hanging out with series and she's hanging out with the notation. There's probably granting air. Mars is i mentioned kinda quiet. Last week. was his big doobie. You know he just kind of blew up the world and now we're going to have him trying urine uranus on the twenty second after mercury talks to uranus on the twentieth so the two of them are gonna come with a plan to urine us and say. Hey how about this is of course we already talked about your initial stationing at fourteen forty seven on the world point we are seeing the world change literally and for us Candidate just announced. We've kind afghanistan shifting power structure is. We'll see what else happens. It's an interesting time in the world and saturn is sex tells you know. Often partnerships are formed on the eighteenth nineteenth. There's a lot of partnership energy. Like i want partner with you and go forward. So that's a helpful underneath. There's there is some stuff around taking better care of your health this week. But i think that's kind of part of the week's going to have an intensity energy and so you're gonna need to take good care of your health You're going to need a little extra sleep. You're gonna need a little extra water. You're going to need a little more self-care than maybe you've been giving yourself. And hopefully that gives you some ideas about how to work with the of the week big hogs consider coming to amiga very cova friendly you have to have a vaccination but the rest of it's fun and it's if you've never been it's beautiful omega in rhinebeck. New york g and weekend is Called astrology consciousness and the great shift strategies at the forefront of great ship a revolution in consciousness that's moving away from contemporary mechanistic models and reclaiming the validity of magic ancient and spiritual traditions off. We go So hopefully you can join us and if not have a great week and take care. It's going to be a little wild out there but you've got this and do be kind to others. They're all having these transits to buy.
The new leviathan: the big state is back
"Hello and welcome to the addition podcast from the spectacular. Each week we take a look at some of the most important and intriguing stories from the issue and the rightist behind them. I'm william more spectators features editor this week. What does the west new era of big government mean for the future plus alberson's tabloids losing that now and finally as we enter the third covert wave. Is it time to look again at all coaches attitude towards death. I up in the nineteen eighties. Reagan and thatcher united in their support for an era of small government. Forty years on and it seems that the current president and prime minister also share a vision for the role of the state. But it's one of big government and even bigger spending our political editor. James forsyth writes this week's cover article about this shift and the reasons behind it. He joins me now with kate andrews. The spectators correspondent james e. Start your cover piece by quoting a line from ronald reagan. And i'd like to start this podcast by quitting another the nine most terrifying words in the english language are. I'm from the government. And i'm here to help it. Seems that for joe biden. boris johnson. Those words are not quite so terrifying off to rule. What do you think's driving them towards big government and big spending covert has essentially led to a wartime stall response from government. And i'd also suggest that kind of waters time star response from the electorate people wanted the government to be there for the government to do things for them and you saw government paying in this country. Millions of sex sector because kate. Recruitment twelve million. I think giving grants to businesses to keep them going and the public accepted with far more willingly than i think. Any of us would have expected. Frankie eighteen months ago instructions to stay at home to not do this. Not do that and i think in the same way about world. War two led to an expanded governor both sides of the atlantic the covert crisis is going to be so now you can all go over time steadily becomes more inefficient and in some ways you can see factor and reagan as a backlash against the government had emerged from the post war consensus. But i think right now. The public want government to do things and politicians are quite happy to spend. The money seems to bring them popularity. I also think that we are dealing with different set of problems. Which makes people feel that. Government spending has more justification to in the fall. Yeah you've got the demographic pressures of an elderly population you've got the one of the issues destabilizing politics. You could argue. On both sides sense. Some places have been left behind. So what are you gonna do to bring them forward. And then finally you. You have the question of china. And how do you respond to this new great power frat belief that you need a push for technology more government money and research and you need a bigger stronger. Military's about means more defense spending. So i think all of these forces are coming together to push towards the biggest eight. Katie think. the tories have got this right. Look you're going to struggle to find an economist on the left or the right. Who thinks that spending a lot of money during a public health crisis was a bad idea. This is the moment where were government comes into. Its own and you have to take crazy measures. Shut down the economy key people at home. You're gonna have to spend a lot of money. The problem for the government is what was happening before the crisis. And what's happening now so before the crisis you had the. Ob are already setting out. Its forecast showing that in a few decades time we already weren't going to be able to fund the promises that we were making to people around healthcare pension and all those liabilities that the money just wasn't going to be there and nobody wanted to confront this or admit to it. We were just gonna muddle long until this came to a head now. We're coming out of this crisis. The second major crisis that we've had in twelve years not a huge period of time and these problems have been accelerated. I mean we have a much bigger q. In the nhl for example now to be five million people waiting for their surgeries. You've got thousands of children that have dropped out of school altogether countless that have fallen behind. We have some real problems on our hands and the bank of england which has been printing money. Like there's no tomorrow making it possible to fund these emergency measures is not going to fund the government's day to day spending. It's not going to go on like this forever. And i think the problem that richie soon neck and boris johnson may be joe biden are going to have is is several actually number one when the money eventually does get cut off where they gonna find it. The tax burden in the uk is at a near seventy year high. It is really difficult to see where you're going to keep. Finding the money is going to try by raising corporation tax in a years time. But we actually don't know how that projects going to play out in the twenty tens a lower tax rate actually lead to higher revenue and then they have problems out of their control. I mentioned joe biden. Who's splashing the cash in america if that has an effect on inflation and people are certainly warning now that it possibly could if we see inflations and rates rise by one percent not an extra twenty. Five billion. pounds of the government has to fi- find justice service the debt. We don't get extra teachers for that. We don't get a bigger defense budget. That's just to pay our bills so this comes to a head in some way. Eventually the question is whether or not the government is going to be able to find that extra revenue whether or not we can push off some kind of inflation surge. But as i said a lot of this is actually out of their control. So it's very risky game. As james says brilliantly in his cover piece biden embarrass are gambling the west future on the risky proposition. And you know some of it they can control but some of it. The camp on that gamble james. I mean in two thousand nineteen. Boris johnson was beating down jeremy. Colwyn and joe mcdonnell by building up the the free markets in the commons. And so on and does it seem now that the tories. I'm the biden administration perhaps for that matter. Ugly rejecting principles of the free market in the free market has not had a good crisis. Because i if you look at this if you had said to me too yes guy the. Uk needs a strategy for medical gowns and surgical gloves. And we're going to build. I would afford you some craze bennett. In this crisis we found that national borders trump free markets and you had even liberal democracies let alone china imposing export bans medical equipment. The like and so i. This crisis has pushed people towards more. Resilient shorter supply chains greater domestic production. Look what was happened to japan. It has no domestic vaccine manufacturing capabilities to speak off. It's only managed to give a first dose to fifteen percent of its population. The uk government did something if you were free market purists. You wouldn't like it said to oxford university. You can only partner with a uk. Headquartered company that will produce the manufacture the vaccine here. I the caution that they displayed in that judgment has been more than vindicated during this crisis. So those have not been good things for the free market and to this china again if you a purely picking on price you pick hallway to bill to a five g network but given the chinese companies are not independent of the state in the way that we would describe in western company has been independent of state. There's clearly a risk for having them involved in a national in your national infrastructure. I think it is right. The free market has not had a good crisis is interesting question. Which is industrial policy in the uk has genuinely involved propping up loses. Rob them picking winners. I think the vaccine development has given the british government great and perhaps an overstated sense of confidence that it can pick something and turn it into a winter and i think that experience that kind of positive experience with industrial policy. Maybe the government has got over confident about its ability to do that. But i mean that is definitely one of the big things driving the ship. Can i can come back on that. I think the market has had a fantastic crisis. So i think if you look at what the government supplied and what the market has supplied. It would have been very painful indeed. Us style if the government hadn't setup a furlough scheme and had perhaps on a stimulus check instead. It's not to say that some of these government programs weren't hugely successful but it would have been impossible to be in and out of lockdown for a year without the market services that we've seen and the very fast way that they adopted if you couldn't get packages to your home if the food supply hadn't held up so that you could certainly still go to your local market and got what you needed frankly if we didn't have the entertainment that we now have at home and if we hadn't had businesses adapting to online zemun the rest of it. We wouldn't have been able to do what we did. I i think that when you look at how the economy contracted in january compared to last april we were back down. Sensually full lockdown measures again and yet it fell by a few percentage points. No that's still in normal terms but the lockdown resilience at the private sector built up in such a short period times. It's remarkable as the private sector at its best jamesy mentioned vaccines. I mean yes. There's plenty of regulation around it but the pfizer vaccine which was pretty much conducted completely. Private manner is the most successful one that we have without the big pharmaceutical companies. I think are one of the major. Here's of the crisis. We wouldn't have any of these and back to supply chains if you had said to any of us in two years time. You're going to need a lot of medical equipment. We would have said yeah. We're not prepared. But i think that's just as much if not more criticism of government. Government cannot predict or foresee what it's going to need in the future but it thinks it can it thinks it can when it comes to the labor market and immigration thinks that it can it can make these assessments when they're investing in tech and future technologies. I don't want to be flippant about it. But in the next crisis if it turns out we really need whiskey in tree. Plans will realize that we don't have enough whiskey and tree plans being provided in the market in this the government will say we need to intervene. The point is that when you do have a shortage. The market is actually the best mechanism to supply it to get things in and also to set prices. So broadly speaking. I think that the market has had a very good crisis is just government things once again that if it had a bit more power could have controlled these things and i think every opportunity at had to control things back in february and march and twenty twenty it failed on so i don't know why we give them credit now james. You could take away from this that the government thinks that the answer to every problem now to to every crisis is to make itself bigger. I mean is that the right answer were you to. He's clearly the state action comedy the ride ons to every single problem. I'm kate riley. Maybe it's no. The market a by is globalization has had a bad crisis. And i think this is one of the things that is the question right. Which is a idea in the cost of government. Borrowing is going to remain as low as this forever. Secondly i think we don't know what. Qe does i think we don t resume and it didn't cause big surge inflation. The money people predicted the one of the reasons. For what is that q e-essentially when repairing banks policies rather than entering into the norman economy. So i think we would be looking at a lot more inflation. In which case some of these big spending decisions look very different than they do now. I think the big question is how do you get more growth. And i think ultimately that growth has a role in providing better infrastructure more skilled workforce but ultimately that growth has to come from the private sector and that is the big question is where is that growth coming from because i think if you look at the obligations all been run up and also if you look at the demands coming down the track in government which is going to spend a huge amount of money during this crisis but the author of experts christ are going to carry on demanding more money so clearing the backlog in health education the criminal justice system. I what's happening care. Homes will make people more insistent that politically needs to be some to social care all of which are going to cost money on. I think i think one of the problems is that the people who believe in a small state low tax solution where is the example in the western world. Where do you point to that. He's doing this and say better doing it. Well people used to site for on on the small states. I'd be all texas versus california. The texas energy blackouts have made that argument much harm as pull off yet. It's clearly top. California was problems. It is losing lots of high income taxpayers who are moving to to to to states with a lower income tax rate but texas instruments. To one of the things going on here is that we are moving to this biggest state model but would no debate. And you look around you. Where where is the place in the in the in the democratic world Which is showing an alternative is possible. I think we have. We have moved consensus on this always as quickly as we moved to a consensus on. What the right response. Serity post the two thousand eight crash off to the recovery. I'm the when you had sarkozy. Markle cameron oh pursuing. Roughly similar fiscal policies go back to eight. Gb taylor right. Before world war one people had minimal interaction. The state those two world wars to share national devos's created the morton. Fast eight and i think in terms of the effector have had on society and in terms of how people view the government what the government thinks. It should do and crucially what people think the government should do. Cohen has been essentially an another national collective effort akin to a world war and in the same way but the world wars led to an expansion in size of covid. Will i mean the question is how quickly does that backlash come. It took to nine hundred eighty nine. The uk nineteen eighty in the us for that post minds at decisively change. I wonder how long it will take for this time. Thank you james. And thank you kate next up. Rupert murdoch has recently written down the value of the sun. Newspaper two zero kelvin. Mackenzie who was editor of the sound from one thousand nine hundred eighty one to nineteen four has risen for this week's magazine about where he thinks. It's all gone wrong. I sat down with kelvin earlier. This week kelvin. In pc wrote for the spectator last year you wanted the sun shouldn't move from being a working class paper to a working class paper. How things got better since he now dramatically worse whoever read my piece and they will read. It will have decided we'll show him. We are going to be so so woke and of course it's been a commercial disaster. A newspaper is distinct from other forms of media is a personality. That's what it is. Is the klein the person you wouldn't we want to be washed up with on a desert island. The idea that you arrive on this bloody desert island right and then you say. I'm going to climb that tree to get some coconuts. Somebody says gee i wouldn't do that. House and safety in any way the coconuts living and breathing things. We mustn't and rolled the animals of the coconuts and gotten himself in the bad shape. Now the truth about the matter is. I have no idea why they've done this. One of the reasons that they may have done is to avoid controversy. Can i just cite them to be in. Journalism without controversy to be in tabloid. Jim without control is perfectly preposterous. You will go bust even faster by avoiding the oncoming gunfire then if you run at it but if readers are abandoning the sun because it's adopted causes and this really is hurting the bottom line and and who's behind it who is pushing this stuff. Well i don't know in some ways. I don't really blame the editor. She came out of the entertainments background so she knows that show business selves and i call count in whose interest except possibly management's the everything's quiet everyday you the whole point producing papers. The ritz are like confetti. Everybody's going mad it's fantastic. It's very enjoyable as long as you. A victim of is very enjoyable. And what do you make of rupert murdoch's announcement last week that he's written down the value of the two zero. Well it's the reality of the business. There's virtually no appetizing and we'll appetizing. There is so the price which is basically give away. This is a business decision. I'd no idea what value was put in their books on the sun. But now with the cascade of money being paid out through phone hacking at the news of the world and more disturbingly now the sun starting to pay out because they've hacked into an x. Mp's phone bill. The money is just flying out the window and there is no money replacing it. It's very very sad moment. What do you think report makes this shift. I mean if you've suggested let's say a green campaign when you editor. I mean how do you think he would have reacted to that. Well i think he would have reacted in a massively hostile manner. He could be massively hostile even over the price of peanut so i remember marketing director wanted to spend some money on. Television and rupert was very hostile to this and the marketing director. australian guy. very good said group. It's peanuts rupert. Said yeah. I know the peanuts. And therefore he's across the detail of this why he has allowed his newspapers because even allow neons twelve percents. The company often sixty ideas of running the business. This is him how he's allowed this to happen. I don't know we have the ridiculous situation. Where working class predominantly white eight mile readers are being fade a delap of green nonsense or taking the knee nonsense or anything like that should be quite tough about it. If the situation is that bad do you think the sun will still exist in ten years. But you prediction be the print version. Definitely not definite and that's not only true of some that will be true of quite a few papers now. What replaces it so. The male line is a brilliant reproduction in its different forms digital form of the data mile the sun online. I don't know what happened to it to blade. I think they've lost rather good guy to the new post. The sun online is a load of rather poorly laid out pool content. They need to raise their game. It is about journalism and if it's not about journalism whether you like the journalism or dislike the journalism is not about journalism. Don't do it rope. Sell it to me or actually give it to me with the dowry. Which would be preferable so. It's people playing at too safe. Is part of the problem is is freedom of speech question across the industry. Do you think absolutely it is a massive massive issue. So won't mainstream media is worried about is what social media is giving it to the left got enough money to pay sixty five p four the sun and go cash rather go nothing. So what they got to say is of no consequence whatsoever. S just noises off if you take it as a derailing. You won't do anything and the other way to look at. Is this okay so mainstream. Appetizers look like idiots ikea. Who now say they won't advertise in on gb news because it doesn't meet their humanist humanistic requirements really does everybody now rightly points out. Oh go shops and they sell in saudi arabia and they sell in china. What the hell are they doing about that. My advice to everyone of your listeners is actually you don't go there. Your kids don't go. they're your friends. Don't go there and teach them a lesson. They are a bunch of bloody hypocrites. So if i ran the sun. I'd say tell you to of either business or haven't got a business. The advertisers are not going dictate to me. What paper are produce. I couldn't give a stuff about one. And if i have to double or treble the cost of my paper from sixty five day tremblay in order to rebalance it and the sale goes down so the idea of trying to accommodate retail. When there as hypocritical as they are with kia by nine ers care grosz and of an actually see that guy runs it by the energy company. He runs an energy company. Basically destroying the primary and. He's now telling us that he's not going to advertise on. Gp news get real. Get annot that guy glenn engaging guy woke issue like because he thinks is his interest probably lives in the huge plenty house. He's probably energy. Bill is twenty billion report. Gets it for nothing sick. Nike final question. Then calvin because you mentioned. Gbd's there couple times. What do you make of gdp. So i love the idea of gp news clearly technical issues which i feel. Sorry for them about riot. That will get better. They represent a section of the media. I in favor of ed. I think relying completely on is a mistake right. I'm a big fan of damn wooden. And i like the idea of what they do. I congratulate them for the they're making. I was with pierce morgan. Just now an. I didn't hear this. So he told me that he watched jambi and then he went to gb news and he said actually in of their content he actually preferred gb news. Which told me one thing. He's been for the job. That gb news kelvin. Thank you very much indeed so the sun may have had better days but on many of its problems shared by other publications. I'm joined by roggio. Olten form editor of the observer and the independent and of course the spectators sports columnist. Roja what do you make of report. Murdoch's announcement last week that he'd written down the value of the paper two zero extraordinary actor. I mean it's i think you can cook can sort of understand it. Part of the problem with the sun is the numbers again. Depending a lot of money on only hacking settlements. It's a paper that's never had any the restructuring the happened a lot of other papers which basically means you reduce what the paper and you've got people and you reduce the cost. Never have so. The sun is causing a lot of money. And so i mean that might be kind of interesting device for you know news. Uk accounting teams to be working through the valuing. Nothing by understanding is that Kelvin's pieces incredibly informed and within the organization and that the sun is in the sun is in trouble. But whether it's working don't know. I mean i mean kelvin's point don't don't use work and They've been all cotton true the green campaign. It's unusual for the sun on the other hand. I think you've got to say. The sun is perfectly entitled to be trying to broaden his base and trying to attract new readers percentage meteors in the whole heap of trouble. Well yes i when. I spoke to kelvin yesterday He spoke a bit about this trouble that that owned newspapers in and he. He thinks that they're adopting a new approach in one. That's too cautious too afraid of controversy and that's particularly about full red tops. I mean do you agree with that. I think that's an to just took talking to pay for the last couple of days now. Increasingly and it's very hard to quantify senior executives on newspapers. Have which. I'm very much not one but would now be aware of the possibility of if you like an a new media piling and this is sort of a tiny kind of caution what they do. I mean nobody would ever you know. Say it's a bad thing to not run story because you think is wrong. Stories wrong shouldn't be running it but not around a story because you think it might upset people. Don't you anxious about a whole heap of twitter. Coming onto you. I think is would be a mistake. But i think some of that is sort of consequence of what's happening in the nas five or ten years of new media and it's not particularly healthy thing but i'm a donoso and she'll be imprisoned but i mean the the sort of new caution will mean a unexciting newspapers particularly obviously tabloids and that willing deed then hit sales and advertising revenue and selling so full so if this is hitting sales in the revenue and it is a lot to do new media and this new approach. I mean what do you can. You see a way out to her now. None of the mo- staff. I mean there's of the staff repelling. If you think about the calvin about the suzanne more episode the guardian where there was a lot of young people objected to some tiny reference. She made i think in the trans debate. Quite record thanks to which is sort of hot button issue on new media moments so the editor on my view. I mean a very good woman should've said f off to the to the people who are objecting you go and write the paper and produce it. My job is to edit. Your job is not bad at the paper and kept suzanne. She'd wanted to. I don't think suzanne's call them now. This is not far from sort of model thaw anti woke principles far from it. But i'm not sure that column exactly works in the telegraph and the way that it was appropriate gone but that shouldn't happen star rebelling and that was another very interesting case and thought the staff job to do that in on the new york times which is a sort of kind of outlined in terms of the smug liberal woke rate but obviously a very good newspaper to one of the very best reporters guide call. Donald mcneil was used the n. Word in their conversation with a lot of young people on a students outing to peru organized by the paper in a conversation about a film in which a young girl used the n. Word is a film and this is disgusting. He used that word because it was part of what the discussion was about. They returned to new york. There was a huge sort of objection. Mcneil man sexual distinguishing has been there for nearly forty years apologized and then later the manager under saddam for. That's not good enough because hundred and fifty members of the newsroom. Said that's not good enough. We don't want him here so he said to mcneil manager subject native lost the newsroom. Go so he went now. The idea that you've got to sort of have the newsroom on your own side is extremely dangerous. And i think that's the new york. Times is an outlier. I think that will could stop to happen here to a degree. I mean i have not really could do and i think these are sort of big big big issues. I think there's an issue the bbc at the moment over. Its reporting of the story about the kobe leaking from a lab which basically the bbc never reported hardly reported because it was something that trump had that. The baby wouldn't do that but it's clearly it's now a big story and yes and now edging towards edging towards the orthodoxy. The bbc as now having to recognize that there are people within the bbc who are extremely anxious about that and they would they would say well. This is something we should have done. And i think the biggest problem on all these areas. Yes i mean. It sounds like crazy. If i'm wrong but it sounds like a very worried about freedom of speech and that's feature within the media in the in the current current climate and is that somewhat to do with advertisers as well and the fear of i'm thinking particularly now of the news. Advertisers are pulling out of gb news for example. I mean does that. I think a stunningly serious development. And so i think the this threat by some This organization called stop funding eight to campaign against gb news because they theoretically don't like what gb news is doing is absolutely pernicious. And i think part of the part of the problem is i think this might today with vodafone. The different hasn't with join us. Advertise the some sort of seventeen year old trainee work in the new media department. Got a call from stockpiling coming eighth and thought well we better pull advertising. So the thing escalates to scale which doesn't really it doesn't exist so i think it will probably go hope it goes away but it means it but it does mean economically game once the problem with freedom of speech. You've got to have your freedom of speech on a matter. It's going to be the stop funding. Hey is perfectly go around saying. We don't gb news and writing to whoever it feels like writing to saying. Don't advertise but you hope that advertisers just like editors and just like publishes have the gumption and the bulls assay go away. We'll do what we want. We have the riot town ties in to listen to great. Broke that by whoever we want. It's a it's a complicated issue but it's not very nice. Roger thank you very much pleasure project. And finally the pandemic has forced collective culture to face mortality. So are we handling it. Well a wilson. The answer is an emphatic. No he joins me to discuss his spectator piece along with moore. Spinney assigns journalist and author of pale rider account of the nineteen eighteen influenza. Pandemic and catherine mannix palliative care physician and author of the end in mind andrew. I would like to start with a question that you raise at the end of your piece. You write what has the whole miserable eighteen month. Nonsense taught us about our collective attitude to death. Would you kindly summarize fatherless-ness your conclusions. Question a little depressed to conclude that it suggests we haven't as a society since the loss of religion and everything else and also since the memory of war and really dangerous situations faded. Haven't got any to pass a to face up to the fact that we are going to die and what this is really about his a crisis of none of us in modern era knowing how to deal with the fact of death really gonna come to feel and therefore we're in a very undignified position the majority of the public. Certainly i think perhaps european public would very much disagree with say they think you spend death indefinitely if you've covered enough doctor and they think it's better to be utterly beyond using any of your faculties or having a decent life. They think that is preferable to the possibility of extinction even though of course death is an absolute inevitability with we live two two and he lived two hundred. And that's it's been behind everybody's thinking up to this post second world war generation where. We've all been pampered. Where we've all had antibiotics to get rid of any kind of illness and along come suddenly an illness which can't be got rid of apparently and we fly into a terrible panic. We lock all sales up. We would rather have a non life. The risk catching this disease katherine. Do you agree that society's asked you towards death needs to change and if so what what are some of the ways you could be could be done. I think andrew's absolutely right. We've lost sight of ordinary. Dying and changes in life expectancy over the twentieth. Twenty-first centuries have made us now unfamiliar with the practice of the deathbed practice of supporting people during their loss of bodily function and their descent. Into dying so my work in palliative care over thirty years has been to work alongside people who discovered that actually they are now in a state where there is not going to be cured. And what's really interesting is observing freeing. That is for people when that fight for immortality if you like that belief that death is not about me it's only about. The people is over people very much focused on the here and now on what's important to them in the present on what their legacy in terms of being remembered of what life has been worth and i think that there's a really valuable things that give people enormous satisfaction and so returning to be able to think about those things. I think it'd be really really useful for people. I mean one of the things. I'm really pleased to be on the cigarettes chatsworth about castro new freedom so well about that actually although we dread the word desk only active death and it's It's held up to us as the ultimate horror. What you've reminded us with all your work over the last decades and things you've written said is when it actually comes to it. It's very Him frightening shorting to people. So long as people you around us in hospices and places helping us to come to town. It's actually release it all spaces you have to raise. You should have known to his inflicted this millions of people. But i think there's a deep truth in that. Thank thank you for those kind words and and i do think that usa two things that are very important to be heard together. There one is that there is a who canary dying that for most people but not universally for most people is not too dreadful for most people is probably not the most uncomfortable day they've ever had by a long shot but also alongside that you've commented that it's because there is symptom management not necessarily because they've needed specialist in palliative care. But we do have the wherewithal now to be able to enable people to be comfortable enough and there's always another dangerous and there've leaping into expecting perfection in whatever it is that we're looking for to be comfortable enough to have a wits about us to appreciate the people who matter to us to finish the tusks that are important to us and relax into a process. That is biologically ordinary and extraordinary. If you like as giving birth as we understand the process of giving birth but we've absolutely lost sight of the process of dying lure. You've written a book a pale rider on the one thousand nine hundred and influenza pandemic and be very interested to hear how you would compare the attitudes towards death between then and now so i'm a little flummoxed by this entire conversation i have to say i mean i probably share a lot of common ground with catherine andrew about our attitudes to death and how we need to rethink mortality but it seems to me. We are missing a crucial step at the beginning of the conversation. So i'd like to take it back. I think andrew's article is an absolute mess and a disgrace and spectators schinder published it. His thinking on what is wrong with lockdown. It's so muddled and floored that he should be ashamed of it. He doesn't even mention for example. The deaths that have been the lives that have been saved by on. This is a very nuanced and complex debate which he oversimplifies not just like to mention that vein that over the last fifteen months i've spoken to three respected scientists who are trying to save lives in three different countries all of whom have received death threats presumably from people who've read that kind of claptrap one of them. Mark van rennes spoke to just the other day in belgium. The virologists on their national council scientific council is living in safehouse on the police protection. So perhaps he should look at the facts before he writes such rubbish. I think before we come to the main question about our attitudes to death. We need to make a separation between death from communicable diseases so we are in a situation of global contagion if somebody decides that they would rather not wear a mask nocco vaccinated. Go to the theater. Expose themselves to another group of people who are potentially vulnerable. They're not just making decisions about their own life and death and making decisions about others deaths and that's the big difference. I think that. I'm probably in line with a lot of work. These catherine things pap sandra to on on on death from in the end of life in general but when it comes to limiting other people's freedoms and nothing limits people's freedom more than illness and death. I think we have to nuance the conversation. Obviously if you went to theater and there was some diseased flow overseas or some other disease was rampaging pinch. I'm paging also taken the risks. I didn't really think argument Hopes nor do i believe. Do you believe your three experts. The cases completely been made that works. Well it depends what you mean by lockdown. I thought maybe you raise your eyes from on the for a minute and look what's happening in brazil and india to see what the alternative might have looked like well of course but we also don't i mean at any moment looking at brazil in as fortunate in the west. Can i make a comment here. That actually locked down or pandemic contagion management is not only about avoiding death. It is about avoiding a catastrophic failure of the infrastructure of society where people there are too many people sick to provide the infrastructure services utilities health care education which in fact we eventually chose to close supply chains shops food. This is about how we preserve a society and it's really really important that contagion management and lorca speak to this really eloquently and reflecting on previous experience is not just about avoiding dying. It is about preserving society in a healthy enough state that it can pick itself up again. Afterwards of course is entirely agree and they intended. The goal of public health is to the greatest good for the greatest number different definition of what the scientists should be doing at the moment. Please suggest it and when you talk about bussey scientists. I mean the fact that you are seventy s. You got in that article in that. You're in good health and able to string. A few sentences together has a lot to do with what body scientists have done over the last century. So you know. Patchy shouldn't be so dismissive. Leave case that all this lock terms necessary and the fact that we've been locked up and as has been says very much imperilled with ordinary society is doing along and destroyed the tournament ruin lots businesses. Excuse me that. He's exactly the opposite of what i said. What i said was that contagion management locking down is to preserve the workforce in essential industries from being too sick to provide those industries. I don't think that any of this is necessarily work. That's what i'm suggesting. I'm not convinced that the numbers of people who die whether in brazil or in great britain would have been very different. If we hadn't had this posting of attached to you know how do you know. But that's what we model these things that there is. The point is is a nuanced and complex debate but anyway perhaps we should move on from that since. It's not the main topic of the conversation. I think it would be good to get back because the main topic i think of andrews articles coach less year than is a scientific question request very interesting and so would like if it's the right to get back to would like to hear a little bit about the attitude towards death that that you've found from from your studies off the one thousand nine hundred influenza pandemic and in contrast to or comparison to confuse now he said what i think is really interesting because the world has gone through a major transition since one thousand nine hundred in at that time infectious diseases communicable diseases were major killer of humans. Now they're not now it's much more the chronic diseases of old age. That are not contagious to speaking. And i think that so you know it was a very different world and some very fundamental ways. Life expectancy was much shorter. Of course antibiotics no antivirals vaccines but nine thousand nine hundred and we're making them against the wrong thing. Generally speaking making them against bacterial infections rather than the virus that causes the flu. I think It's also important to point out that you know it emerged the pandemic at the end of world war people have been ground down by four years of different kinds of death and would probably psychologically exhausted but it was a world just to put that aside for one moment where we expected to die. At an earlier age you had deathl- around you probably less frightening and unfortunately you if you had a lot of children which people did precisely because child mortality was high you would not that surprise to see one or more of your children die before you so it was a very different frame of reference and i think that if this is what andrews mainly getting ateneo catherine is suggesting also that we have lost touch with death as a part of live as natural continuation just much more frightened of it now than i would entirely agree. Well i've got there. Is that a point victory but yes certainly of all of the three of you. Laura that being the case is there anything we can do as a society given that we all come from very different backgrounds very different belief systems and so to get back to some of the frame of mind obvious it much of the world in one thousand nine thousand nine hundred a horror story to which none of us want to return but is there anything. We should get back to that we could expect. Castro has told us this morning that death is like beth is part of human existence and we ought to be able to live with it and learn how to do it wisely and kindly. What should we do. Should we be introducing lessons in schools. What should we be doing. Yeah i'd absolutely agree. And i think that we need to think about an understanding us as a as a trans societal thing. So what can we do in schools. What resources can we make available for parents to support conversations that they also don't know how to talk about. What can we learn from better journalism. What can we get into things that influence people's thinking now that influence people's thinking include notions like soap operas so up for deaths are almost ordinary almost always extraordinary and macabre and the british soap opera little youtube video at the end of the year of the of the deaths in albert square or coronation street or wherever coronation street actually won awards for a story that they ran a couple of years ago about a young mom dying from cancer the cervix and it was absolutely beautifully done. What they demonstrated was telling the truth and showing the poignancy and the sorrow and the hopes and the difficulties navigated some of which were never resolved. Actually makes excellent television. It doesn't need to be avoided. It can actually really really persuade viewers. We need to think creatively but we also need reporters. We need better journalism so those kathleen negotiated decisions with elderly people who did not want to leave the familiarity of the care home to go to a hospital where chances may not have been great. That would have been. No familia staff no contact with family and friends. They were reported in the newspaper as left to die. And actually they were often the culmination of very very precise castle tender conversations between doctors the person themselves and their family about what the balance of odds and the balance of preferences were for that person similarly. We've got this difficulty that we not allowed now to move through the process of dying into the phase where all of our organs shutdown and eventually last of all our heart stops and then nobody comes jumps on our chest without a particular certificate that gives us permission to die normally otherwise is seen as a cardiac arrest. Nurses have been struck off the nursing register for not starting resuscitation on a person who was known to be dying in their but didn't have the appropriate piece of paper that said at the end of this person's life don't commence cardiopulmonary resuscitation. So there's a huge job to do to rehabilitate the dignity of ordinary dying. And some of that is absolutely at the door of irresponsible reporting that with excessive during this pandemic they will have to to end it there. Notes about dignity which i think is a very nice place to leave it. So andrew custody in laura thank you very much indeed thinking thinking and that's it for this week. You enjoyed the podcast. Why not pick up the latest issue of the magazine to read all the pieces discussed. You can get twelve issues of a spectator for just twelve pounds spectator code canes slash voucher. Thanks for listening and do join us again. Next week