11 Episode results for "Carol Durant"
S10: Infamous: Ted Bundy Pt. 2
"Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of abuse, murder and sexual assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. December thirty, first nineteen, seventy, seven, another freezing morning at Garfield County jail in Glenwood Springs, Colorado, as the early guard, began his shift, he whistled to himself, desperately, trying to inject some cheer into the place. It was new years after all. But, as he made his way further down the row of cells, his whistling stopped at the end of the hall was one cell. He dreaded visiting. Ted. Bundy was Nice, enough charming, even, but the guard knew what he was in for murder. The thought gave him chills. So as he approached Mr Bundy's cell at the end of the hall, he steeled himself. But what he saw when he arrived was off. Ted's dinner tray from the night before had been left untouched, this alone was nothing unusual. Ted had lost his appetite in the last few weeks. Sometimes only taking a few bites of meals every day. It seemed he got an ear. But it wasn't the UNEATEN Food and Ted sell that made the guard uneasy. It was the fact that Ted wasn't up. Usually at that hour, he was wide, awake, reading or clicking away in his typewriter. The looked over at Ted, asleep under some blankets and called his name. Ted didn't stir then he called again louder this time still nothing. The guards mind began to race oh God. Was He dead? The guard unlock the SAL rushed inside the tiny whitewall broom when he pulled back the blanket of the bank. His heart nearly stopped. Underneath was nothing but a pile of books Ted Bundy had escaped again. Hi I'm Greg Poulsen. This is serial killers apar- cast original every Monday we dive into the minds and madness of serial killers. This is our second episode on Ted Bundy One of the most notorious serial killers of twentieth century I'm here with my co host Vanessa Richardson. Hi everyone, you can find episodes of serial killers, and all other podcast originals for free on spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream serial killers for free on spotify just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar. At Park. Asked grateful for you, our listeners. You allow us to do it, we love. Let us know how we're doing. Reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at parkhouse network, and if you enjoyed today's episode, the best way to help us to leave a five star review wherever you're listening, it really does help last week. We cover Ted Bundy's background from chaotic childhood to a struggle with identity and rejection as a young man. We also followed his slow metamorphosis into a killer, leaving nearly a dozen murders in his wake in nineteen, seventy four. This week will track Ted as he continues his killing spree mutilating and Nearly, forty young women in cities across America it was a bloody rampage that spurred multiple arrests and trials, leading him to become one of America's most infamous killers. By the summer of Nineteen, seventy four Ted Bundy's transformation into a serial killer was complete for the previous six months, twenty-seven-year-old Ted had terrorized the Pacific northwest, he began in Seattle, targeting female co eds at the University of Washington, but eventually expanded his hunting crowns, Ted abducted and murdered college, aged women on university campuses in alleys and hitchhiking off the interstate, but no matter where his victims were from, they all looked the same police, and the media noted that each victim was white, young attractive, and had long Brunette hair parted down the middle. Across the northwest young women started bleaching their hair blond in a desperate attempt to avoid the same fate with no reliable evidence or witnesses, the Seattle PD was at a loss, watching helplessly as women continued to disappear, but they still had hope a lead would emerge. The killer was growing more brazen abducting multiple women in a single month, sometimes even mere blocks away from the last crime scene. They knew it was only a matter of time before he made a critical mistake. Then finally on July fourteenth nineteen. seventy-four Ted's violent sexual desires got the better of his caution. He abducted both nineteen year old denise, Naslund, and twenty three year old. Janice ought at links park back to back in broad daylight. One of Ted's defining characteristics as a killer was his boldness Ted was a risk taker, and he prided himself in testing his limits. In fact, it's possible that Ted's overwhelming desire to push the envelope obscured the possible ramifications of his actions. Almost as he believed, he was immune like there was no situation, he couldn't slip out of. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode, please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for this show. Thanks Greg. Many researchers and psychologists have found a link between boldness and psychopathy and according to psychological researcher Shannon J Fernandez in her article entitled prediction of a rise of antisocial personality disorder. This connection may be explained by the brain activity of adolescence risk, taking and teenagers is caused by an undeveloped cognitive control system, the areas of the brain responsible for regulating impulses and making positive long-term decisions, however, though most individuals see a decline in risk taking behavior as these areas of the brain, mature psychopaths continue these tendencies well into adulthood. If risk is consistently met by reward, some adults may develop a kind. kind of fixation on the behavior associated with that risk, and if left unchecked, these tendencies may progress years, and even decades past adolescence, this may lead to what Fernandez describes as desensitization and fearlessness and a need for higher level risk, taking in order to achieve stimulation for Ted this behavior, most likely stemmed from his peeping. Tom Days as a teenager for over a decade. His voyeuristic habit went unchecked. Meaning the only outcome Ted faced was his own sexual gratification, however, once the thrill of peering into women's bedroom windows no longer scratched that each Ted's fixation gradually progressed into something much more violating. It's important to note however that not all risk taking behaviors from adolescence may develop into violence, depending on the objective associated with this risk desensitization may have different outcomes such as drug addiction, but if an individual stimulation is achieved through antisocial behavior, psychopathic tendencies may be born. For months, each murder Ted committed had been met with nothing but reward. He had killed nearly a dozen women, and in return he received sexual release and escape entirely without consequence, but that changed with the murders of Denise Naslund and Janice Odd in July of nineteen seventy four this time his boldness had made him slip up before he abducted Janet Ted had introduced himself to her within earshot of witnesses, and now the authorities were onto him now they had his name. Though police weren't positive. That Ted was the real name of the killer. They had good reason to believe that they were on the right trail. As soon as they released the information to the public, they were flooded with thousands of leads. People across Washington state called with their hunches, and soon by cross-referencing, which of those men also drove a ten VW bug. They narrowed down their suspects from thousands to just one hundred on that list was twenty seven year old Theodore Bundy. A coworker of Ted's as well as one of his former professors submitted his name to the Saddle PD, but when asked by police, if they observed suspicious behavior outside of his similarities to the suspect, neither had an answer, they were mere acquaintances with a hunch, nothing more and on paper Ted was practically a boy scout a well liked young law student with a squeaky clean record, so detectives simply put his name on a list and moved on. There was only one person who could blow the lid off of Ted's facade and she wasn't talking yet. For, almost a year Ted's term girlfriend Elizabeth Clever observed that there was something strange going on with Ted he often disappeared in the middle of the night after they've gone to sleep and once Liz even found a bag of unfamiliar women's clothing in his apartment, but at the time. She didn't think her boyfriend could be a killer. She assumed he was cheating on her. This, devastated Liz so much so that she was too absorbed with his possible infidelity to realize the striking connection between her ted, and the one at Lake Sammamish. That was the case at least until he left. Ted had decided to try his hand law school once again this time at the University of Utah, and so when Ted left Washington near the end of the summer in Nineteen, seventy four. Liz was left with the space to put it all together. The nighttime disappearances the clothes. All of that was deeply troubling for weeks. Friends urged her to call the police and for weeks she resisted. Then finally on August. Eighth Nineteen, seventy-four Liz called the Seattle PD. But when detectives took down her tip, they simply filed it among all the others without further evidence, matching their killer with Liz's description, Liz's lead was just another call from a jilted girlfriend and they'd had plenty of those. Seattle detectives were at a loss with no promising leads. Their trail went cold, and suddenly after nearly a year, women stopped disappearing. Ted Bundy had moved onto another hunting ground. Salt Lake City. As Ted drove south on the interstate toward Utah, he remembered feeling euphoric. Once again he was going to pursue his dream of becoming a lawyer and leaving Washington was a relief now that the police had his first name, he knew his time was limited before they caught onto him in Utah. He be safe. He'd have a fresh start. Ted arrived in Salt Lake City and he did what he was best at he blended in he threw himself into studies and quickly made friends that the University of Utah, and though he had lives kept in touch and continued their relationship long distance, he started dating another law student Sharon our. That year he was baptized and became an involved member of the Church of the Latter Day saints, attending congregation meetings and church functions, but no matter what identity Ted put on, he was still a wolf in sheep's clothing and salt. Lake City had plenty of rams. Once again Ted found himself surrounded by young beautiful college students, and once again his violent urges became too overwhelming to contain in the fall of nineteen, seventy four. He began his second murder spree. Sources vary on some of the details and circumstances of each of Ted's kills, but according to author and rules book the Stranger beside me. Next victims were claimed in the following order. Electoral Second. Ted broke his abstinence and murdered sixteen year old Nancy Wilcox. Her body was never found. That same month on October, eighteenth ted killed seventeen year old Melissa Smith the daughter of a local police chief. She was last seen by her father at home before she left to meet a friend for dinner nine days later, her body was found in the wilderness, a nylon stocking around her neck. She'd been beaten raped and strangled on Halloween less than two weeks later seventeen year old Laura aim vanished. Her body was found in the wasatch mountains on Thanksgiving Day, but not all of Ted's attacks successful on November, Eighth Nineteen, seventy, four one victim escaped. Eighteen year old Carol Durant was window shopping at a local mall when a man claiming to be a police officer approached her. He told Carol. He'd seen someone break into her car and asked her to come with him to the parking lot. She needed to verify if was missing from her vehicle. Carol was caught off guard by the seemingly normal looking man. He was just wearing street clothes. No uniform, but she figured the officer was working undercover, so she followed him outside. Once Carol look through her car. She grew suspicious. Nothing it seemed was missing, but the officer insisted she keep looking then he asked her to come with him back to the station. Defile report finally. Carol had enough she wasn't getting in the car with a stranger. She asked to see some kind of identification. The officer pulled out his wallet and showed her his badge. Embarrassed that she doubted him, she agreed to go to the station. When they approach the officer's Car Carol Thought It was strange that he drove a VW bug, but still tasting her earlier embarrassment, she didn't say a word. They drove off in silence away from the mall. After a moment the officer suddenly pulled the car over and parked care last him what he was doing. Of answering, he grabbed her wrist and handcuffed it. Carol panicked she struggled as the man attempted to secure the second cuff, but he pulled out a gun. He threatened. I'll blow your head off. But this only spurred caroline to action, she opened the car door and jumped out. The man followed in tackled her to the ground Carol kept fighting. She thrashed scratched, but he seemed unaffected. When Carol looked up at her attacker. There was no range on his face. What she saw was far more terrifying. His eyes were blank deadened. Finally Carol broke free from his grasp and sprinted toward an approaching car. She opened the door and jumped in the back seat, crying hysterical. She begged the driver to take her to the police station. Carol durant narrowly escaped an awful fate, but she had just fled with her life. She knew her abductors identity his face. Coming up Ted Bundy continues his murderous rampage in Colorado and faces the first of many trials. Now back to the story. In the summer of Nineteen seventy four twenty seven year old Ted Bundy's brazen murders in the Pacific northwest finally drew the attention of the Seattle PD. Ted sought out a fresh start in another state that fall. He left Washington to enroll in law school at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. But once again his dark urges followed him. In less than three months he killed four more victims, but one woman managed to escape. Ted had left his first living witness eighteen year old Carol Garage In November of Nineteen, seventy, four immediately after escaping, Carol went to the police to report her abductor. She had no name or concrete evidence. Just the handcuffs still attached to her wrist, and the image of his face burned into her mind for months, police kept their eyes open for the PERP, but came up empty handed. After the day of Carol Escape Ted tried to ignore his bloodlust, and keep his head down, but even still his darker impulses had gotten in the way of his education, he failed out of law school for the second time. Twenty eight year old returned to Seattle in January of Nineteen, seventy, five to visit Liz after spending almost half a year apart. She observed that Ted had seemingly changed for the better. His temperamental nature was long gone. The tender warm-hearted man she loved had returned. Liz felt an enormous amount of guilt forever, giving his name to the Seattle. PD But little. Did she know Ted? Had committed his own betrayal. He was still dating Sharon our and Utah. Neither Liz nor Ted revealed their respective secrets instead they made plans to get married and decided to have their wedding the following winter. Then as quickly as he came, Ted was gone again. He told Liz he was returning to the University of Utah for his spring semester, but that was just one more lie designed to conceal his biggest secret of all instead Ted left Washington to kill again. By this point Ted had been murdering for almost exactly one year. In that time he established a sort of pattern or cycle. He would kill in a frenzy for months consumed entirely by his bloodlust, then he would suddenly stop for a time as if the urge had simply passed. That January, when he returned to Washington and saw Liz Ted was in this dormant period, charming and collected, it was kind of calm before the storm of his next murderous rampage Dr Frederick. worthen them defines these stages of criminal action as a catatonic crisis worth embrace down the concept into a series of steps, these include an emotional buildup that precipitates into the crime, a calmness after the crime that allows the. The person to behave normally and finally a resolution, a stage in which the individual self regulates adjusting so that the act won't be repeated, however, according to criminologist Donald J sears, serial killers never reached this final stage of resolution. Instead they'll be caught in a perpetual cycle of build up and release as this pattern continues, sears explains that each crime will only become more violent and more frequent than the last. And for Ted, there was no doubt that he'd been consumed by this bloody back loop. For a year Ted at held onto a small semblance of normalcy, his dream of becoming a lawyer, but by January of nineteen seventy-five, it seemed as if Ted had given that up to succumbing to his bloodlust. When he left Liz. SEATTLE HE DIDN'T GO BACK TO UTAH. To continue. Was Law laundry instead? He went to Colorado with only one goal in mind to rape and slaughter as many women as he could. On January twelfth, Nineteen seventy, five, twenty eight year old. Ted made his way to the ski town of Snowmass Village Colorado where he abducted twenty-three-year-old Karen Campbell from the wildwood in. Karen was at the INN while on a ski vacation with her fiance that evening the couple was relaxing by the fire in the lobby. When she left to grab a magazine from their room, she stepped into the hotel elevator and was never seen again. Thirty six days later, her body was found naked and ravaged by animals in the surrounding mountains, and soon there were more. From January to July of Nineteen seventy-five Ted killed four more victims. The same epidemic of missing women that plagued the Pacific Northwest and Utah was now happening in Colorado. But before authorities could find lead, the murder stopped. Ted once again moved on. It's unclear. Why but Ted traveled back to Salt Lake City in early July. Perhaps it was to visit his second long distance, girlfriend, Sharon, our whatever the reason. His Return to Utah was his biggest misstep yet. August. Sixteenth, one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, five at two am. Ted was pulled over by police and his car was searched. Inside they found a series of suspicious items. Rope an ice pick a crowbar handcuffs among others. But to the police officer, these weren't weapons of murder. They were burglary tools. Ted was arrested, but ultimately released without bail. It was only after he'd walked back into the night that the police noticed something chilling Ted match the description of a wanted suspect Carol garanges kidnapper. A few days later Ted was brought back to the station to participate in a lineup of suspects for Carol to identify in preparation. Ted entirely altered his appearance, shaving his moustache and changing his haircut, but nothing would make Carol forget the face of her would be killer. Those thin lips at straight pointed knows it was him. Ted was arrested and charged with Carol Ranch's abduction for months as he languished in jail, awaiting trial. Ted Wasn't identified for a single other crime. And so on February Twenty Third Nineteen Seventy six twenty nine year old Ted was tried for kidnapping and nothing more. At the trial Ted was anything, but defeated or remorseful. He felt exhilarated. He loved the intensity of the courtroom. He may not have finished law school, but he used his own case as a way to flex his legal know how ted wanted to be as involved as possible in his defense, he did extensive research and frequently consulted with his attorney. He started around the courtroom confident that he would win the fight. He was wrong on March first Ted was found guilty and sentenced to one to fifteen years in prison for the first time he'd have to suffer the consequences of his actions, and it wasn't long before his true crimes came back to haunt him. Eight months into a sentence Ted was charged with Karen Campbell's murder for months. Detectives in Colorado had been gathering circumstantial evidence that place Ted at the wildwood. In at the time, Karen went missing. When they learned, their prime suspect had already been imprisoned for kidnapping. They believed they had their man. Thirty year old Ted was extradited to Colorado. That Winter Ted lost his biggest supporters Liz clip for and Sharon. Our listen Sharon had stood by Ted side throughout the Carol durant trial completely unaware that he was seeing both of them. But with the murder charge, the two women reached their breaking points they both left him, and so with few supporters left, and with the looming possibility of a death sentence Ted took matters into his own hands. On July Seventh Nineteen seventy seven Ted attended a pretrial hearing in Aspen Colorado that would determine whether or not he would face the death penalty. That morning during a court recess, ted asked to use the courthouses long library. This was not an unusual request just like he had with Carol. Durant trial Ted was adamant about researching his own defense, and so the deputies allowed ted access alone and unshackled. As. The deputies waited in the hallway outside. Ted opened the libraries second. Window and jumped. As soon as he hit the ground, he felt us, hearing pain. Shoot up his lack. The impact tore ligaments in his ankle, but Ted didn't stop. He scrambled to his feet and sprinted toward the surrounding mountains by the time deputies realized he was gone, already disappeared into the Colorado wilderness. Ted's escape was no impulsive decision. For weeks he'd been planning his escape and he'd worn multiple layers of clothing for the occasion. He was going to need all the warmth. He could get to survive freezing nights at elevated altitudes. Ted was determined to go as high and as far as he could. Ted Remembered psyching himself up as he made his way into the mountains. He later told journalists I was saying to myself again and again you must go, you must go. Don't hesitate. Don't stop! Don't stop. Ted had good reason to keep running because very soon. An army of Colorado ones rallied together to hunt him down. Authorities orchestrated a sweeping manhunt. Locals from the area even showed up to volunteer on horseback armed with rifles. Everyone. It seemed wanted to track Ted Bundy. down. Police set up checkpoints on the only two roads of Aspen, hoping they'd catch the killer as he tried to flee town, but not a single vehicle contained the runaway murderer. Bat was because Ted hadn't left his first night on the Lam. He broke into an empty hunting cabin. Only partway up the mountain. He spent every night after outside in the freezing woods, trekking the wilderness with his injured ankle just steps ahead of a team of search dogs. But eventually a brutal rainstorm forest, Ted from his hiding place in the mountains exhausted starving and nearly twenty five pounds lighter, he made his way to a small town below got a meal and stole a car. It was time to get out of dodge. But Ted's Road to freedom was short on. July Thirteenth Nineteen, seventy, seven at two am. Police stopped a car driving erratically and the highway inside a haggard, looking man with wild eyes, squinted into the beam. The officers flashlight. Finally, they found Ted. Bundy was on the run for nearly a week before he was apprehended when he returned to prison, he flashed his signature grin for the cameras, and as reporters crowded around him. He cracked jokes downplaying his escape. He told them honest to God I just got sick and tired of being locked up. For the next five and a half months ted languished in prison, awaiting his murder trial, but he had no intention of setting foot in court with a twenty five pound head start after his escape, he continued to starve himself until he was thin enough to fit through an opening in the ceiling of a cell where light fixture hadn't yet been installed. In. The early hours of December thirty, first, nineteen, seventy, seven, ted made his move at less than one hundred forty pounds. He lifted himself through the hole in his ceiling, and army crawled through the air shafts into the guards apartment located above his cell from bear. He dropped into the room and stole a set of clothes then he walked out the front door. Ted Bundy America's most prolific serial killer escaped for the second time and slipped into the winter night. Ted Bundy goes on a bloody road trip across America and captures the fascination of the entire country now back to the story. From Nineteen, seventy, four to nineteen, seventy, five, ted bundy murdered at least seventeen women, moving his killing spree from the Pacific Northwest to Utah then Colorado. But when an unrelated arrest led to his first murder charge Ted realized. His time was fleeting. In. The months following his extradition to Colorado, he made not one, but two escapes, and on new, Year's eve of nine, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven, thirty, one year, old Ted broke out of prison and disappeared into the night. That morning, using money donated for his Defense Fund Ted Secured. His exit out of Colorado he hopped on a bus to the Denver airport and then took a plane to Chicago from there. He wrote a train to Ann Arbor, Michigan but at the time Ted's priority wasn't hiding out. It was college football. On January. Second Ted cheered on his Alma Mater University of Washington. As they defeated the University of Michigan in the Rose Bowl. Then that night without a single sent to his name, he slept in the sanctuary of a local methodist church the next morning. He stole a car. Ted decided he needed to be as far away from the North West as possible, so he set his sights on the opposite corner of the country. He went to Florida. Ted figured that in Florida. No one would be looking for him. He wasn't wrong. Due to a lack of expedient communication between police departments, the sunshine state was left in the dark. After his escape, in Colorado, the feds got involved in the hunt for Ted. And soon he was placed on the FBI's most wanted list, but even so with no computers and no central database authorities on the east coast had little idea that a killer from the West may be headed their way. On January eighth, nineteen, seventy eight one week after escaping prison in Colorado Ted, Bundy drove to Tallahassee Intel A- Hassi Ted, told people as name was Chris Hagen and after stealing a handful of strangers, credit cards from a local bar. He secured himself a room in an apartment complex next door to a sorority house Chi Omega. Just one week later in the early morning hours of January fifteenth. Nineteen seventy eight, thirty one year old Ted embarked on his boldest crime yet. Ted watched as the sisters of the Chi Omega. Sorority trickled back to the house from their dates and headed to bed by two thirty a m when it. The last girl had fallen asleep. He made his move. Ted slipped through the sorority houses back door, carrying a small oak tree limb. He found in the backyard as he walked quietly through the house, passing portrait after portrait of Sorority sisters past he could feel his heart pound finally, he approached the room of twenty one year old Margaret Bowman. Inside Margaret was fast asleep. In the span of just minutes Ted had beaten and strangled her to death. Now Panting and spattered with blood, Ted could feel himself losing all control without hesitation. He's moved on to his next victim. Ted Entered the room of twenty year old Lisa Levy. She was strangled and clubbed to death, like Margaret, but tense attack Lisa was particularly vicious S. he assaulted her Ted bit. Lisa's POTTY TED had lost himself entirely his bloodlust. He sunk his teeth into her buttocks and tore away nipple on her right breast. Ted continued to make his way down the hall of the Sorority House attacking two more women there that night, twenty one year, old Karen Chandler and twenty year old Kathy Kleiner. Like Margaret and Lisa Karen and Kathy were unconscious during the attacks, but fortunately they survived just barely when emt's later arrived at the scene. They weren't sure if they were alive or dead as he watched, the girls beaten bodies, being loaded into ambulances, share of Ken Cassandra's wondered. What kind of monster could have committed a crime so heinous? But before he could ponder the answer, he heard a call over his radio. Another young woman had been brutally beaten only blocks away Ted had barely made it down the street before succumbing to his murderous urges again. Ted's brazen behaviour had reached new heights this time he'd left evidence behind. When CASSANDRA's raced to the scene, he found a mask made out of women's nylons and a semen stain in the woman's bedroom. Ted had gotten so absorbed in the thrill of the kill heat sabotaged himself. Criminologists commonly classified serial killers on a distinct dichotomy, organized and disorganized murderers for years. Ted's crimes had placed him neatly in the former. He was a textbook, organized killer, socially competent and high functioning. He always planned his murders in advance, sometimes elaborately, and took pride in his ability to leave without a trace, but over time Ted's classification dramatically shifted according to researchers Barney Warf and Cynthia Waddell the lines between organized and disorganized killers is commonly blurred when a murderer is left to murder over an extended period of time, warp and waddle explained that as a killers urges heighten their psychosis intensifies often changing their previously well established habits. And for Ted this transition happen quickly. When he entered the Cayo Mega House that night Ted wasn't organiz killer, but when he walked out, he'd seemingly devolved. Ted Subsequent kills only became more chaotic. He was no longer following. A PLAN PROPELLED ONLY BY LUST TED murdered multiple women in quick succession, and left their bodies at the crime scene. He was spiraling out of control soon propelled by the chaos of the Chi Omega Murderers Ted fled Tallahassee and headed southeast to the small town of Lake City Florida there he would deviate even further abandoning the one characteristic that had defined all his other murders, his victim profile. On February ninth. Nineteen Seventy, eight, ted spotted twelve year old Kimberly Leach crossing the basketball court of junior high school. The last anyone saw of Kim she was climbing into a white van, looking upset after murdering nearly three dozen White College age women with long dark hair. Ted had taken an entirely new type of victim. He murdered a young child. This signified an extreme turning point in Ted. He was no longer the slick deceptive killer with a crystal, clear intent as the stress of his life on the run intensified, and his inevitable fate in prison loomed larger. It didn't matter who he killed anymore. He simply needed to keep feeding the ravenous part of himself. That urged him to continue. Five days later on Valentine's Day an officer notice. Ted Driving under the speed limit in an orange VW bug. Following his instincts, the officer decided to pull the vehicle over instead ted panicked and sped off. A high speed chase ensued, and then a fight once the officer managed to Corner Ted. He lashed out even reaching for the policeman's gun. But the struggle was futile and Ted was arrested and searched officers found more than twenty one credit cards in his possession with a variety of names. They were all stolen, and was the car Ted refused to reveal his identity authorities were baffled and suspicious. Who was this mystery man? By the next day they had a hunch by tracing the VW plates. They discovered it had been stolen in Tallahassee near the Chi Omega Sorority House. Soon the Pensacola PD called up share of Ken Cassara Sotela Hassi and broke the news. They believe they had the co Ed killer in custody. For Days Ken, add his detectives question Ted, they brought him cigarettes to win him over, and eventually Ted agreed to reveal his identity on one condition. He wanted a phone call. He wanted to call Liz club for. He warned her that she'd soon see really ugly stories about him on the news. He was right. Once the media got a hold of the story. Ted's name was everywhere at the time he was already one of the ten most wanted men in the US. The Cayo mega murders only raised his profile. But the thing that truly sealed Ted Bundy and America's collective consciousness was perhaps not the details of his crimes, but his bizarre performance at his own murder trials. Following Ted's indictment, the Florida State Supreme Court made an unprecedented ruling due to the high level of public interest. In the case, Ted's trial would not only be open to Florida residents. It would be the first murder trial to be nationally televised. In June of Nineteen seventy-nine hundreds of people flooded the Miami court room for the first day of proceedings, television crews from all fifty states and nine countries set up lights and rolled cameras and spectators, many of them young women fascinated by the curiously charming murderer filled seats. As thirty two year old Ted entered the courtroom. He beamed at the crowds and winked at cameras. He had an audience. The entire nation was watching ever the showman. The spectators emboldened Ted. He made impassioned speeches and crack jokes, making the court room roar with laughter. Just as he did during the Carol Durant case, and despite his lack of a law degree Ted led his own defense, though a team of young public defenders was assigned to his case Ted assumed the position of lead counsel much to their annoyance multiple times he drove his lawyers to walk out of the courtroom in frustration Ted. Insisted on cross, examining witnesses, often undermining his own argument in the process, and in the end there was little his attorneys could do to stop him. Ted was too caught up playing lawyer in the role of a lifetime. But the stakes couldn't be higher for all of his showmanship. His impassioned speeches at the at trix Ted was still dealt the death penalty. On July thirty, first nineteen, seventy, nine in his thick southern drawl judge Edward Coward sentenced Ted to the electric chair. But it seemed that even the judge at Ted's murder trial hadn't escaped the serial killers charms after he delivered his verdict, coward lamented that he saw a bright young man's potential wasted, he stated. Take care of yourself. Young Man I say that to you sincerely. It is a tragedy for this court to see such a total waste of humanity. You're a bright young man. You'd have made a good lawyer, and I'd have loved to have you practice in front of me, but you went another way partner I. Don't have any animosity to you. I want you to know that, but even after being sentenced to death Ted's antics were far from over in January of Nineteen Eighty Ted represented himself for the last time in the murder trial of twelve year, old Kimberly Leach, and once again he was given the death penalty, but it was nearly a decade before he saw his sentence through. In that time Ted? Bundy lingered on death row, taking interviews with journalists, psychologists, and as execution grew closer, he began admitting to more murders just to delay his sentence. Ultimately, he admitted to thirty one in total. But Ted could only delay fate for so long on January twenty, fourth, nineteen, eighty, nine, forty two year old Ted took his seat in the electric chair in front of a large picture window behind it was a gallery of onlookers, many of whom were witnesses at his trial. In his last words to his very last audience Ted Apologize. For All the trouble he caused then a metal skullcap was placed on his head, followed by a black hood. The executioner flipped the switch and moments later at seven sixteen am. Ted Bundy was pronounced dead. At his request Ted was cremated, and his ashes were scattered at an undisclosed location in the cascades in Washington, state. After his death, Ted Bundy place among class of America's most prolific serial killers. But his blood legacy lives on not because of the number of his crimes, but because of Ted himself. Americans were and still are fascinated with the good-looking charmer with a capacity to kill. It's this duality that we fixate on the shadow. We boundary between all American men and notorious murderer, but he embodied so well. Countless movies, documentaries and books both fiction, and not have been inspired by his brutality and his charisma, making him into a kind of macabre celebrity. Ted Bundy has become synonymous with the idea of a serial killer, the prototype of a psychopathic lust murderer, but as the media's love. Affair with Ted Rages on it begs the question. Was this, but he ultimately wanted. There's no doubt Ted used his unique position at his televised trial to his benefit, but perhaps he'd always intended to make a lasting impression that would live on long past his inevitable death. In Ted's last act, he'd manipulated an entire nation, creating a dark stain on our collective consciousness. Thanks again for tuning. Into serial killers, we'll be back Monday with a new episode for more information on Ted Bundy amongst the many sources we used. We found the book the stranger beside me by an rule extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of serial killers, and all of the park cast originals for free on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts, not only this spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like serial killers for free from your phone, desktop or smart speaker to stream serial killers on spotify just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar. and. Don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Have a killer week. Serial killers was created by Max Cobbler. And his apar- cast studios original executive producers include Max and Ron, cutler sound design by one Boorda with production assistance by Ron, Shapiro, Carly Madden Isabel away and Joel Stein this episode of serial killers was written by Alex Garland with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon and Stars Greg, Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson
The Campus Killer Pt. 2: Ted Bundy
"Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of abuse murder and sexual assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. December thirty first nineteen seventy seven another freezing morning at Garfield County jail in Glenwood Springs Colorado. As the early guard began his shift. He whistled to himself desperately trying to inject some cheer into the place. It was new years after all but as he made his way. Further down the row of cells his whistling stopped at the end of the hall was one cell he dreaded visiting Ted Bundy was nice. Enough charming even but the guard knew what he was in for murder. The thought gave him chills so as he approached Mr Bundy's cell at the end of the hall. He steeled himself but what he saw when he arrived was off. Ted's dinner tray from the night before had been left untouched. This alone was nothing unusual. Ted had lost his appetite in the last few weeks sometimes. Only taking a few bites of meals every day. It seemed he got skinnier but it wasn't the uneaten food and Ted sell. That made the guard uneasy. It was the fact that Ted wasn't up. Usually at that hour he was wide awake reading. Or clicking away in his typewriter Lagarde looked over at Ted Asleep under some blankets and called his name. Ted didn't stir then he called again louder this time still nothing. The guards mind began to race. Oh God was he dead. The guard unlock. The Sal rushed rushed inside the tiny whitewall broom when he pulled back the blanket of the bank. His heart nearly stopped underneath was nothing but a pile of books. Ted Bundy had escaped again. Hi I'm Greg Poulsen. This is serial killers. Apar- cast original every Monday. We dive into the minds and madness of serial killers. This is our second episode on Ted Bundy. One of the most notorious serial killers of the twentieth century. I'm here with my co host Vanessa. Richardson Hi everyone. You can find episodes of serial killers and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream. Serial killers for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar at Park asked grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do it. We love let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at parkhouse network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening. It really does help. Last week. We cover Ted Bundy's background from chaotic childhood to a struggle with identity and rejection as a young man we also followed his slow metamorphosis into a killer leaving nearly a dozen murders in his wake in nineteen seventy four. This week will track Ted as he continues his killing spree mutilating and murdering nearly forty young women in cities across America. It was a bloody rampage that spurred multiple arrests and trials leading him to become one of America's most infamous killers by the summer of nineteen. Seventy four Ted Bundy's transformation into a serial killer was complete for the previous six months. Twenty-seven-year-old Ted had terrorized the Pacific northwest. He began in Seattle targeting female co EDS at the University of Washington but eventually expanded his hunting crowns Ted abducted and murdered college aged women on university campuses in alleys and hitchhiking off the interstate but no matter where his victims were from. They all looked the same police and the media noted that each victim was white young attractive and had long. Brunette hair parted down the middle across the northwest. Young women started bleaching their hair blond in a desperate attempt to avoid the same fate with no reliable evidence or witnesses the Seattle PD was at a loss watching helplessly. As women continued to disappear but they still had hope a lead would emerge the killer was growing more brazen abducting multiple women in a single month. Sometimes even mere blocks away from the last crime scene. They knew it was only a matter of time before he made a critical mistake. Then finally on July Fourteenth Nineteen seventy-four. Ted's violent sexual desires got the better of his caution. He abducted both nineteen year. Old Denise Naslund and twenty-three-year-old Janice ought at links park back to back in broad daylight one of Ted's defining characteristics as a killer was his boldness. Ted was a risk taker and he prided himself in testing his limits. In fact it's possible that Ted's overwhelming desire to push the envelope obscured the possible ramifications of his actions. Almost as he believed he was immune like there was no situation he couldn't slip out of. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for this show thanks Greg. Many researchers and psychologists have found a link between boldness and psychopathy and according to psychological researcher Shannon J Fernandez in her article entitled prediction of a rise of antisocial personality disorder. This connection may be explained by the brain activity of adolescence risk. Taking in teenagers is caused by an undeveloped cognitive control system the areas of the brain responsible for regulating impulses and making positive long-term decisions however though most individuals see a decline in risk taking behavior as these areas of the brain mature. Psychopaths continue these tendencies well into adulthood if risk is consistently met by reward. Some adults may develop a kind of fixation on the behavior associated with that risk. And if left unchecked these tendencies may progress years and even decades past adolescence. This may lead to what Fernandez describes as desensitization and fearlessness and a need for higher level risk taking in order to achieve stimulation for Ted. This behavior most likely stemmed from his peeping Tom. Days as a teenager. For over a decade. His voyeuristic habit went unchecked. Meaning the only outcome. Ted faced was his own sexual gratification. However once the thrill of peering into women's bedroom windows no longer scratched that each. Ted's fixation gradually progressed into something. Much more violating. It's important to note however that not all risk. Taking behaviors from adolescence may develop into violence depending on the objective associated with this risk. Desensitization may have different outcomes such as drug addiction but if an individual stimulation is achieved through antisocial behavior psychopathic tendencies may be born for months. Each murder Ted committed had been met with nothing but reward. He had killed nearly a dozen women and in return he received sexual release and escaped entirely without consequence but that changed with the murders of Denise Naslund and Janice odd in July of Nineteen. Seventy four this time. His boldness had made him slip up before he abducted Janet. Ted had introduced himself to her within earshot of witnesses and now the authorities were onto him now. They had his name though. Police weren't positive that Ted was the real name of the killer. They had good reason to believe that they were on the right trail. As soon as they released the information to the public they were flooded with thousands of leads. People across Washington state called with their hunches and soon by cross-referencing which of those men also drove a ten VW bug. They narrowed down their suspects from thousands to just one hundred on. That list was twenty seven year. Old Theodore Bundy a coworker of Ted's as well as one of his former professors submitted his name to the saddle PD but when asked by police if they observed suspicious behavior outside of his similarities to the suspect neither had an answer. They were mere acquaintances with a hunch. Nothing more and on paper Ted was practically a boy scout. A well liked young law student with a SQUEAKY CLEAN RECORD. So detectives simply put his name on a list and moved on. There was only one person who could blow the lid off of Ted's facade and she wasn't talking yet for almost a year Ted's long term girlfriend. Elizabeth Clever observed that there was something strange going on with Ted. He often disappeared in the middle of the night after. They've gone to sleep and once. Liz even found a bag of unfamiliar women's clothing in his apartment but at the time she didn't think her boyfriend could be a killer. She assumed he was cheating on her. This devastated Liz so much so that she was too absorbed with his possible infidelity to realize the striking connection between her Ted and the one at Lake Sammamish. That was the case at least until he left. Ted had decided to try his hand at law school once again. This time at the University of Utah and so when Ted left Washington near the end of the summer in nineteen seventy four. Liz was left with the space to put it all together. The nighttime disappearances the clothes all of that was deeply troubling for weeks. Friends urged her to call the police at for weeks. She resisted then finally on August. Eighth Nineteen seventy-four. Liz called the SEATTLE PD. But when detectives took down her tip they simply filed it among all the others without further evidence. Matching their killer with Liz's description. Liz's lead was just another call from a jilted girlfriend and they'd had plenty of those Seattle detectives were at a loss with no promising leads. Their trail went cold and suddenly after nearly a year. Women stopped disappearing. Ted Bundy had moved onto another hunting ground. Salt Lake City as Ted drove south on the interstate toward Utah. He remembered feeling euphoric. Once again he was going to pursue his dream of becoming a lawyer and leaving. Washington was a relief. Now that the police had his first name he knew his time was limited before they caught onto him in. Utah. He be safe. He'd have a fresh start. Ted arrived in Salt Lake City and he did what he was best at he blended in. He threw himself into studies and quickly made friends that the University of Utah and though he had lives kept in touch and continued the relationship long distance he started dating another law student. Sharon our that year he was baptized and became an involved member of the Church of the Latter Day saints attending congregation meetings and Church functions but no matter what identity Ted put on. He was still a wolf in sheep's clothing and Salt Lake City had plenty of rams once again. Ted Found himself surrounded by young beautiful college students and once again his violent urges became too overwhelming to contain. In the fall of nineteen seventy four. He began his second murder spree. Sources vary on some of the details and circumstances of each of Ted's kills but according to author and rules book. The Stranger beside me next victims were claimed in the following order electoral. Second Ted broke his abstinence and murdered. Sixteen year. Old Nancy Wilcox. Her body was never found that same month on October. Eighteenth ted killed seventeen year old. Melissa Smith the daughter of a local police chief. She was last seen by her father at home before she left to meet a friend for dinner. Nine days later her body was found in the wilderness. A nylon stocking around her neck. She'd been beaten raped and strangled on Halloween less than two weeks later. Seventeen year old. Laura aim vanished. Her body was found in the wasatch mountains on Thanksgiving Day. But not all of Ted's attacks successful on November eighth nineteen seventy four. One victim escaped eighteen year old. Carol Durant was window shopping at a local mall when a man claiming to be a police officer approached her he told Carol he'd seen someone break into her car and asked her to come with him to the parking lot. She needed to verify if was missing from her vehicle. Carol was caught off guard by the seemingly normal looking man he was just wearing street clothes no uniform but she figured the officer was working undercover so she followed him outside once. Carol look through her car she grew suspicious. Nothing it seemed was missing but the officer insisted she keep looking then. He asked her to come with him back to the station defile report. Finally Carol had enough. She wasn't getting in the car with a stranger. She asked to see some kind of identification. The officer pulled out his wallet and showed her his badge embarrassed that she doubted him. She agreed to go to the station when they approach the officer's Car Carol Thought It was strange that he drove a vw bug but still tasting her earlier embarrassment. She didn't say a word. They drove off in silence away from the mall. After a moment the officer suddenly pulled the car over and parked care last him what he was doing but instead of answering. He grabbed her wrist and hand cuffed it. Carol panicked. She struggled as the man attempted to secure the secondhand cuff. But he pulled out a gun. He threatened I'll blow your head off but this only spurred caroline to action. She opened the car door and jumped out. The man followed in tackled her to the ground. Carol kept fighting. She thrashed scratched but he seemed unaffected. When Carol looked up at her attacker there was no range on his face. What she saw was far more terrifying. His eyes were blank deadened. Finally Carol broke free from his grasp and sprinted toward an approaching car. She opened the door and jumped in the back. Seat crying hysterical. She begged the driver to take her to the police station. Carol durant narrowly escaped an awful fate. But she had just fled with her life. She knew her abductors identity his face coming up. Ted Bundy continues his murderous rampage in Colorado and faces the first of many trials. We WanNa take a moment to say thank you to all of our listeners because of you serial killers just reached its third anniversary. Three years of serial killers isn't possible without your support so to commemorate this incredible anniversary and your loyalty. Serial killers will now be airing twice a week. That's right in addition to the regular Monday release of serial killers. You'll also get a brand new episode every Thursday so mark your calendar and get ready to hear US twice a week every Monday and Thursday and thanks again for supporting serial killers now back to the story in the summer of. Nineteen seventy four twenty seven year old Ted Bundy's brazen murders in the Pacific Northwest. Finally drew the attention of the Seattle PD. Ted sought out a fresh start in another state that fall. He left Washington to enroll in law school at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. But once again his dark urges followed him in less than three months he killed four more victims but one woman managed to escape. Ted had left his first living witness eighteen year old. Carol ranch in November of nineteen seventy four immediately after escaping. Carol went to the police to report her abductor. She had no name or concrete evidence. Just the handcuffs still attached to her wrist and the image of his face burned into her mind for months. Police kept their eyes open for the PERP but came up empty handed. After the day of Carroll's escape Ted tried to ignore his bloodlust and keep his head down but even still his darker impulses had gotten in the way of his education. He failed out of law school. For the Second Time Twenty eight-year-old Ted returned to Seattle in January of nineteen seventy five to visit Liz. After spending almost half a year apart she observed that Ted head seemingly changed for the better. His temperamental nature was long gone. The tender warm-hearted man. She loved had returned. Liz felt an enormous amount of guilt forever giving his name to the Seattle PD. But little did she know Ted had committed his own betrayal. He was still dating. Sharon. Our and Utah. Neither Liz nor Ted revealed their respective secrets. Instead they made plans to get married and decided to have their wedding the following winter then as quickly as he came. Ted was gone again. He told Liz he was returning to the University of Utah for his spring semester. But that was just one more lie designed to conceal his biggest secret of all instead. Ted left Washington to kill again by this point. Ted had been murdering for almost exactly one year in that time. He established a sort of pattern or cycle. He would kill in a frenzy for months consumed entirely by his blood lost then he would suddenly stop for a time as if the urge had simply passed that January when he returned to Washington and saw Liz. Ted was in this dormant period charming and collected. Who was kind of calm before the storm of his next murderous rampage? Dr Frederick Worrisome Defines these stages of criminal action as a catatonic crisis worth them. Breaks down the concept into a series of steps these include an emotional buildup that precipitates into the crime a calmness after the crime that allows the person to behave normally and finally a resolution a stage in which the individual self regulates adjusting so that the act won't be repeated however according to criminologist Donald J sears serial killers never reached this final stage of resolution. Instead they'll be caught in a perpetual cycle of build up and release as this pattern continues. Sears explains that each crime will only become more violent and more frequent than the last and for Ted. There was no doubt that he'd been consumed by this bloody feedback loop for a year. Ted At held onto a small semblance of normalcy. His dream of becoming a lawyer but by January of Nineteen seventy-five. It seemed as if Ted given that up to succumbing to his bloodlust when he left lives in Seattle he didn't go back to Utah to continuous law degree instead. He went to Colorado with only one goal in mind to rape and slaughter as many women as he could on January twelfth. Nineteen seventy five twenty eight year old. Ted made his way to the ski town of Snowmass Village. Colorado where he abducted twenty-three-year-old Karen Campbell. From the wildwood in Karen was staying at the end while on a ski vacation with her fiance that evening. The couple was relaxing by the fire in the lobby when she left to grab a magazine from their room she stepped into the hotel elevator and was never seen again. Thirty six days later her body was found naked and ravaged by animals in the surrounding mountains and soon there were more from January to July of nineteen seventy five. Ted Killed Four more victims the same epidemic of missing women that plagued the Pacific Northwest and Utah was now happening in Colorado but before Thornton could lead. The murder stopped. Ted once again moved on. It's unclear why but Ted traveled back to Salt Lake City in early July. Perhaps it was to visit his second long distance girlfriend Sharon our whatever the reason his returned to. Utah was his biggest misstep yet on August sixteenth. Nineteen seventy five at two. Am Ted was pulled over by police and his car was searched inside. They found a series of suspicious items rope. An ice pick a crowbar and handcuffs among others but to the police officer. These weren't weapons of murder. They were burglary tools. Ted was arrested but ultimately released without bail. It was only after he'd walked back into the night that the police noticed something. Chilling Ted matched. The description of a wanted suspect Carol Tarantulas kidnapper. A few days later Ted was brought back to the station to participate in a lineup of suspects for Carol to identify in preparation Ted entirely altered his appearance shaving his moustache and changing his haircut but nothing would Carol Forget. The face of her would be killer. Those thin lips at straight pointed knows it was him. Ted was arrested and charged with Carol. Garages abduction for months as he languished in jail awaiting trial. Ted Wasn't identified for a single other crime and so on February twenty third. Nineteen seventy six twenty nine year old. Ted was tried for kidnapping and nothing more at the trial. Ted was anything but defeated or remorseful. He felt exhilarated. He loved the intensity of the courtroom. He may not have finished law school but he used his own case as a way to flex his legal know how ted wanted to be as involved as possible in his defense. He did extensive research and frequently consulted with his attorney. He strutted around the courtroom confident that he would win the fight. He was wrong on March. First Ted was found guilty and sentenced to one to fifteen years in prison. For the first time he'd have to suffer the consequences of his actions and it wasn't long before his true crimes came back to haunt him eight months into a sentence. Ted was charged with Karen Campbell's murder for months detectives in Colorado had been gathering circumstantial. Evidence that place Ted at the wildwood. In at the time Karen went missing when they learned their prime suspect had already been imprisoned for kidnapping. They believed they had their man thirty year. Old Ted was extradited to Colorado that winter? Ted lost his biggest supporters Liz clip for and Sharon. Our listen Sharon had stood by Ted side throughout the Carol. Durant trial completely unaware that he was seeing both of them but with the murder charge. The two women reached their breaking points. They both left him and so with few supporters. Left and with the looming. Possibility of a death sentence. Ted took matters into his own hands on July seventh. Nineteen seventy seven. Ted attended a pretrial hearing in Aspen. Colorado that would determine whether or not he would face the death penalty that morning during a court recess. Ted asked to use the courthouses low library. This was not an unusual request. Just like he had with the Carol durant trial. Ted was adamant about researching his own defense. And so the deputies allowed Ted access alone and unshackled as the deputies waited in the hallway outside Ted. Open the libraries second story window and jumped. As soon as he hit the ground he felt. Us hearing pain. Shoot up his leg. The impact tore ligaments in his ankle. But Ted didn't stop. He scrambled to his feet and sprinted toward the surrounding mountains. By the time deputies realized he was gone he'd already disappeared into the Colorado wilderness. Ted's escape was no impulsive decision. For weeks he'd been planning his escape and he'd worn multiple layers of clothing for the occasion. He was going to need all the warmth he could get to survive freezing nights at elevated altitudes Ted was determined to go as high and as far as he could. Ted Remembered psyching himself up as he made his way into the mountains. He later told journalists. I was saying to myself again and again you must go. You must go. Don't hesitate. Don't stop. Don't stop Ted had good reason to keep running because very soon an army of Colorado ones rallied together to hunt him down. Authorities orchestrated a sweeping manhunt locals from the area even showed up to volunteer on horseback armed with rifles. Everyone it seemed wanted to track Ted Bundy down. Police set up checkpoints on the only two roads out of Aspen. Hoping they'd catch the killer as he tried to flee town but not a single vehicle contained the runaway murderer. That was because Ted left his first night on the Lam he broke into an empty hunting cabin only partway up the mountain. He spent every night after outside in the freezing woods trekking the wilderness with his injured ankle. Just steps ahead of team of search dogs but eventually a brutal rainstorm forced Ted from his hiding place in the mountains exhausted starving and nearly twenty five pounds lighter. He made his way to a small town below. Got A meal and stole a car. It was time to get out of dodge. But Ted's Road to freedom was short on July thirteenth nineteen seventy seven at two. Am Police stopped a car driving erratically and the highway inside a haggard looking man with wild eyes squinted into the beam? Of the officers flashlight. Finally they found Ted. Bundy was on the run for nearly a week before he was apprehended. When he returned to prison he flashed his signature grin for the cameras and reporters crowded around him. He cracked jokes downplaying his escape. He told them honest to God. I just got sick and tired of being locked up for the next five. And a half months Ted languished in prison awaiting his murder trial but he had no intention of setting foot in court with a twenty five pound headstart after his escape. He continued to starve himself until he was thin enough to fit through an opening in the ceiling of his cell where light fixture hadn't yet been installed in the early hours of December thirty first. Nineteen seventy seven. Ted made his move at less than one hundred forty pounds. He lifted himself through the hole in his ceiling and army crawled through the air shafts into the guards apartment located above his cell from bear. He dropped into the room and stole a set of clothes then. He walked out the front door. Ted Bundy America's most prolific serial killer escaped for the second time and slipped into the winter. Night Ted Bundy goes on a bloody road trip across America and captures the fascination of the entire country. Now back to the story from nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy five ted bundy murdered at least seventeen women moving his killing spree from the Pacific Northwest to Utah then Colorado but when an unrelated arrest led to his first murder charge. Ted realized his time was fleeting in the months following his extradition to Colorado. He made not one but two escapes and on New Year's Eve of nineteen seventy seven thirty one year old. Ted broke out of prison and disappeared into the night that morning using money donated for his. Defense Fund Ted Securities exit out of Colorado. He hopped on a bus to the Denver airport and then took a plane to Chicago from there. He wrote a train to Ann Arbor Michigan but at the time Ted's priority wasn't hiding out. It was college football on January. Second Ted cheered on his Alma Mater University of Washington as they defeated the University of Michigan in the Rose Bowl then that night without a single sent to his name he slept in the sanctuary of a local methodist church. The next morning he stole a car Ted decided he needed to be as far away from the North West as possible so he set his sights on the opposite corner the country. He went to Florida. Ted figured that in Florida. No one would be looking for him. He wasn't wrong. Due to a lack of expedient communication between police departments the sunshine state was left in the dark after his escape and Colorado. The feds got involved in the hunt for Ted and soon he was placed on the FBI's most wanted list but even so with no computers and no central database authorities on the east coast. Had little idea that a killer from the West may be headed their way on January eighth nineteen seventy eight one week after escaping prison in Colorado. Ted Bundy drove Tallahassee specifically to the University of Florida in Tallahassee. Ted told people his name was Chris. Hagan and after stealing a handful of strangers credit cards from a local Bar. He secured himself. A room ended apartment complex next door to a sorority house Chi Omega just one week later in the early morning hours of January fifteenth. Nine thousand nine hundred seventy eight thirty one year. Old Ted embarked on his boldest crime yet. Ted watched as the sisters of the Chi Omega Sorority trickled back to the house from their dates and headed to bed by two thirty. Am when it seemed. The last girl had fallen asleep. He made his move Ted slip through the sorority houses back door carrying a small oak tree. Limb he found in the backyard as he walked quietly through the house passing portrait after portrait of Sorority Sisters Past. He could feel his heart pound. Finally he approached the room of twenty one year. Old Margaret Bowman inside Margaret was fast asleep in the span of just minutes. Ted had beaten and strangled her to death now panting and spattered with blood. Ted Could feel himself losing all control without hesitation. He moved on to his next victim. Ted Entered the room twenty year old Lisa Levy. She was strangled and clubbed to death like Margaret but tense attack on Lisa was particularly vicious as he assaulted her Ted bit. Lisa's POTTY TED had lost himself entirely in his bloodlust he sunk his teeth into her buttocks and tore away a nipple on her right breast. Ted continued to make his way down the hall of the Sorority House. Attacking two more women there that night. Twenty one year old Karen Chandler and twenty year old. Kathy Kleiner like Margaret and Lisa Karen and Kathy were unconscious during the attacks but fortunately days survived just barely when emt's later arrived at the scene. They weren't sure if they were alive or dead as he watched the girls. Beaten bodies being loaded into ambulances. Sheriff Ken Cassandra's wondered. What kind of monster could have committed a crime so heinous? But before he could ponder the answer he heard a call over his radio. Another young woman had been brutally beaten only blocks away Ted had barely made it down the street before succumbing to his murderous urges again. Ted's brazen behaviour had reached new heights. This time he'd left evidence behind when Cassandra's race to the scene he found a mask made out of women's nylons and semen stain in the woman's bedroom. Ted Gotten so absorbed in the thrill of the kill heat sabotaged himself. Criminologists commonly classify serial killers based on distinct dichotomy organized and disorganized murderers for years. Ted's crimes had placed him neatly in the former. He was a textbook organized. Killer socially competent and high functioning. He always planned his murders in advance sometimes. Elaborately and took pride in his ability to leave without a trace. But over time Ted's classification dramatically shifted according to researchers Barney Warf and Cynthia Waddell the lines between organized and disorganized killers commonly blurred when a murderer is left murder over an extended period of time warp and waddle explained that as a killers urges heighten their psychosis intensifies often changing their previously. Well established habits and for Ted. This transition happened quickly when he entered the Chi Omega House that night. Ted was an organized killer. But when he walked out he'd seemingly devolved Ted subsequent kills only became more chaotic. He was no longer following a plan. Propelled ONLY BY LUST. Ted Murdered Multiple Women in quick succession and left their bodies at the crime scene. He was spiraling out of control soon. Propelled by the chaos of the Chi. Omega murders Ted fled Tallahassee and headed southeast to the small town of Lake City Florida there he would deviate even further abandoning the one characteristic that had defined all his other murders his victim profile on February ninth. Nineteen seventy eight. Ted spotted twelve year old Kimberly Leach crossing the Basketball Court of her junior high school. The last anyone saw Kim she was climbing into a white van looking upset after murdering nearly three dozen White College age women with long dark hair. Ted had taken an entirely new type of victim. He murdered a young child. This signified an extreme turning point in Ted he was no longer the slick deceptive killer with crystal clear intent as the stress of his life on the run intensified and his inevitable. Fate in prison loomed larger. It didn't matter who he killed anymore. He simply needed to keep feeding the ravenous part of himself that urged him to continue five days later on Valentine's Day an officer notice Ted driving under the speed limit in an orange. Vw Bug following his instincts. The officer decided to pull the vehicle over instead. Ted panicked and sped off a high speed chase ensued and then a fight once. The officer managed to Corner Ted. He lashed out even reaching for the policeman's gun but the struggle was futile and Ted was arrested and searched. Officers found more than twenty one credit cards in his possession with a variety of names. They were all stolen. As was the car. Ted refused to reveal his identity. Authorities. Were baffled and suspicious. Who was this mystery man by the next day they had a hunch by tracing the VW's plates they discovered it had been stolen in Tallahassee. Near the Kyle Mega Sorority House soon. The Pensacola PD called up sheriff. Ken Cassara of Tallahassee and broke the news they believe they had the co Ed killer in their custody for days. Ken and his detectives questioned Ted. They brought him cigarettes to win him over and eventually Ted agreed to reveal his identity on one condition. He wanted a phone call. He wanted to call Liz club for. He warned her that she'd soon see really ugly stories about him on the news he was right once. The media got a hold of the story. Ted's name was everywhere at the time he was already one of the ten most wanted men in the US. The Chi Omega murders only raised his profile. But the thing that truly sealed Ted Bundy and America's collective consciousness was perhaps not the details of his crimes but his bizarre performance at his own murder trials. Following Ted's indictment the Florida State Supreme Court made an unprecedented ruling due to the high level of public interest. In the case. Ted's trial would not only be open to Florida residents. It would be the first murder trial to be nationally. Televised in June of Nineteen seventy-nine hundreds of people flooded the Miami courtroom for the first day of proceedings television crews from all fifty states and nine countries set up lights and rolled cameras and spectators many of them young women fascinated by the curiously charming murderer filled seats as thirty two year. Old Ted entered the courtroom he beamed at the crowds and winked at cameras. He had an audience. The entire nation was watching. Ever the showman. The spectators only emboldened Ted. He made impassioned speeches and crack jokes making the courtroom roar with laughter just as he did during the Carol Durant case and despite his lack of a law degree Ted led his own defense though. A team of young public defenders was assigned to his case. Ted assumed the position of lead counsel much to their annoyance multiple times. He drove his lawyers to walk out of the courtroom in frustration. Ted insisted on cross examining witnesses often undermining his own argument in the process and in the end there was little his attorneys could do to stop him. Ted was too caught up playing lawyer in the role of a lifetime but the stakes couldn't be higher for all of his showmanship. His impassioned speeches and the Ad Trix. Ted was still dealt the death penalty on July thirty. First Nineteen seventy nine in his thick southern drawl. Judge Edward Cowart sentence Ted to the electric chair but it seemed that even the judge at Ted's murder trial hadn't escaped the serial killers charms after he delivered his verdict coward lamented that he saw a bright young man's potential wasted. He stated. Take care of yourself. Young Man I say that to you sincerely. It is a tragedy for this court to see such a total waste of humanity. You're a bright young man. You'd have made a good lawyer and I'd have loved to have you practice in front of me but you went another way partner. I don't have any animosity to you. I want you to know that but even after being sentenced to death. Ted's antics were far from over in January of nineteen eighty. Ted represented himself for the last time in the murder trial of twelve year old Kimberly Leach and once again he was given the death penalty but it was nearly a decade before. He saw his sentence through in that time. Ted Bundy lingered on death row taking interviews with journalists since psychologists and as execution grew closer. He began admitting to more murders just to delay his sentence ultimately he admitted to thirty one in total but Ted could only delay fate for so long on January twenty fourth nineteen eighty nine forty two year old. Ted took his seat in the Electric Chair. In front of a large picture window behind it was a gallery of onlookers. Many of whom were witnesses at his trial in his last words to his very last audience. Ted Apologize For all the trouble he caused. Then a metal skullcap was placed on his head followed by Black. Could the executioner flip the switch and moments later at seven six? Am Ted Bundy was pronounced dead at his request? Ted was cremated and his ashes were scattered at an undisclosed location in the cascades in Washington state for after his death. Ted Bundy took his place among a class of America's most prolific serial killers but his bloody legacy lives on not because of the number of his crimes. But because of Ted himself. Americans were and still are fascinated with the good-looking charmer with a capacity to kill. It's this duality. That we fixate on the shadowy boundary between all American men and notorious murderer that he embodied so well countless movies documentaries and books both fiction and not have been inspired by his brutality and his charisma making him into a kind of macab. Celebrity Ted Bundy has become synonymous with the idea of serial killer the prototype of a psychopathic lust murderer. But as the media's love affair with Ted Rages on it begs the question. Was this what he ultimately wanted? There's no doubt Ted used his unique position at his televised trial to his benefit. But perhaps he'd always intended to make a lasting impression that would live on long past his inevitable death in Ted's last act he'd manipulated an entire nation creating a dark stain on our collective consciousness. Thanks again for tuning into serial killers. He'll be back Monday with a new episode for more information on Ted Bundy amongst the many sources we used. We found the book the stranger beside me by an rule extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of serial killers and all of the podcast originals for free on spotify or anywhere. You listen to podcasts. Not only spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you. Enjoy all of your favorite podcast. Originals like serial killers for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream serial killers on spotify. Just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Have a killer week. Serial killers was created by Max Cutler. And his apart cast studios original executive include Max and Ron Cutler sound designed by Juan Boorda with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden Isabel away and Joel Stein. This episode of serial killers was written by Alex Garland with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon and stars Greg Poulsen and Vanessa Richardson.
Full Episode: Friday, January 31, 2020
"This is nightline tonight the double life of Ted Bundy a face of Evil Nana. I'm here today because I assert my innocence accused of murdering dozens of women now the unsuspecting mother and daughter who wants love sadistic serial killer still have disbelief breaking their silence. After nearly forty years to amy robot I still believe she was innocent at that point. While a facade of doting partner Erin father figure murder on his mind never in my dreams and I think he was out stalking eventually ducting. Why were they spared by one? The most infamous murderers in American history. That thought ever cross your mind. WHO's going to kill US nightline? We'll be right back when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste. You need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need indeed dot Com post a job job in minutes set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates using an intuitive online dashboard. And when you need to hire fast accelerate your results with sponsor jobs new users can try for free at indeed dot com slash nightline. That's indeed dot com slash nightline terms conditions and quality standards apply offer valid through March. Thirty First Twenty Johny Twenty. I still have a sense of disbelief. That this man that I love could go out and do service talk to Liz Kendall Ted. Bundy was not a sadistic murderer. Who Killed Dozens of women I've been involved in L.? We came up with thirty but the man she loved. Is it fair to say at least at first the Ted Bundy was gentlemen. Oh completely my parents loved him he was really yet my opinion and I really wanted to marry him. He was like a father to to her daughter. Molly seen here together in these childhood photos. I adore this man. They were together for about five years. While Bundy's secretly began his his descent into a serial murderer. There were two Bundy's the only people that ever saw the diabolical Bundy or his victims at I. I didn't want to believe that. Her smart charming and charismatic boyfriend could be a serial murderer you thought he was innocent. Did now in the new Amazon Prime Series Ted Bundy falling for a killer. He is seen through the eyes of Liz. And Molly the women who knew him best. We were like a family. They're breaking in their silence after nearly forty years in the Docu series and in a book the Phantom Prince my life with Ted Bundy less. I'm sure you've asked yourself why not. May I mean I hate to even say this because it makes him sound normal but I do think you love this Bundy was in his early twenties when he met Liz Kendall at a bar in Seattle Washington. I was pretty smitten. Right from the get-go she was a young reasonably. I BELIEVE NAIVE SINGLE MOTHER FROM UTAH. Who met the man who was considered by virtually everybody in society and Culture in the one thousand nine hundred seventy s as the dream date the perfect husband material prince charming but there were two sides to Bundy? This is what makes nineteen seventy four so extremely namely different determined. He's going to launch himself into fulltime murder and he's just gonNa keep doing until he was captured or killed. One of his first known victims was twenty one year old Linda and healy a senior at the University of Washington. Bundy spotted added Healy and a bar followed her home and strangled her in her bedroom. Can you describe to me what your relationship was. Like in nineteen seventy four subtle changes were where I felt like. Maybe I was losing him. He thought maybe worse case scenario. She sings someone else. Never in my dreams. I think he was out stalking women and then eventually abducting the murdering women over the next four months young women in the Pacific northwest started to go missing. There were no clues whatsoever. The minutes kind of remarkable that nobody saw anything but that changed on July fourteenth nine thousand nine hundred seventy four bundy went to Lake Sammamish state park looking. Thanks for his next victim. A number of people that day at leg Sammamish or taking photos and shooting film a little did they know the police would want to review this footage. Ted was able to Meld into the crowd. He was able to convince Denise Naslund and Janice Chris odd to help him with the reuss that he had a sailboat that he had his arm in a fake slang. uh-huh if anybody has seen the silence of the lambs where the killer had that trying to get that couch into the van and he's got a cast on the Dow. Can I help you. That he kidnapped and and killed the two young women those abductions were very brazen and in front of literally thousands of witnesses. Police asked the public to send in any video or photos taken that day. Antea down by themselves. As Ted Police knew the suspect drove adults wagon and we're able to produce this composite sketch. Your Co workers brought over the sketch to show to you because they thought the sketch looked like Ted. Yes yes there was something about it that just grab my attention. There was just something about the line or something like that making and you called Seattle. Police call anonymously to tip line. That they had set up. There was something like three thousand potential. Ted's heads who may or may not drive a Volkswagen and he was one of them but he had this terrific spotless clean record. You have to understand that detective have to work was organized. A very different way in the seventies there was no DNA evidence. Police departments didn't even have fax machines. Let alone the Internet did you ever ask Ted. Are you concerned about the similarities. In the very beginning I asked him. I said did you read this. You know what they're saying. There's so many things here that people are going to be looking at you kind of making a joke out of it. But once they started to worry like could this be true. I didn't feel safe life bringing it up. Want him to know what I was thinking as the police investigations intensified Bundy realized he had to leave the Seattle area. The front killing Brown use the excuse of going to the Utah Law School. Listen Molly stayed behind. Bundy drove away. Well hours later he. He killed a hitchhiker in Idaho. In law school bundy barely went to class. He's like a kid in a candy store up to the Utah around for women in the end just a matter of weeks but one woman escaped carol garage. Who managed to get out of his car after after he lured her in pretending to be a police officer investigating a crime so this is the first time we have an eyewitness of somebody who survives Bundy attack My friend CAME BACK FROM UTAH. And said I don't want to scare you. It's happening down there now. What did that feel like? Oh my God like the bottom of my world is falling out. It's like this too much of a coincidence. So I did call King County police place and I did meet with the detective. I gave them some pictures of him and they showed him to the best witness from Lake. Sammamish she pulled his picture shouted the staff at the detective had given said No. He's too old and put it back in the stack multiple contacts with the police. But it kept coming back Eric. He's not your guy. It's the winner of nineteen seventy-five and Ted Bundy's gotta find a place where there's not a lot of talk about about missing women so he heads up the mountains to Colorado. I Aspen where he finds his next victim. Karen Campbell Doc. Unearths from Michigan thirty six days later her nude body was found almost three miles away. Two months later he heads over to Vail and ends up killing twenty six year old ski instructor Julie Cunningham. He was just not gonNA stop get more relationships with dead woman by now than living women. It was all about the hunt but the hunter was about to become the hunted in Utah. Later that year he got stopped by a local cop in his car a ski mask handcuffs and pantyhose with the is cut and took him in Boston. And all of his Guy Bat put him on the radar of Utah Law Enforcement and they had this unsolved unsolved. Abduction of Carol Carol Durant came to the police station was shown a lineup and was able to identify Bundy. The personal attack was arrested and charged with the advent of Payroll Dhiraj at one point police. I didn't show you a photo of the items they found in Ted's car. How could he possibly explained that a way to you and he's tried to just brush it off of you? We need the crow bar for if I get wreck can lead to pry cars apart. I need the ski mask for shoveling snow believing he was innocent. His friends raised money for his bail while waiting for his trial. Bundy returned to Seattle to see Liz. What was that time like? Well when he first showed up at my door unannounced. I've taken aback. Poke started talking to Guinness. It's like this is ten because of our placement in his world is the only reason that we're still alive. I'm quite certain because people had their eyes on it did that thought ever cross your mind is going to kill us. No you think he was capable of murder. I mean I still believed he was innocent at that point. Listen Molly come to grips with the horrible truth truth about the man. They both loved after years of killing at least sixteen women across five states. Ted Bundy was on trial. Not for any of those murderers but for kidnapping in court. He testified in his his own defense. Thought he could lie about everything and get away with. It was pretty hard to explain why you drive around with an ice pick. Any patios mass ass. Bundy was convicted of kidnapping Carol Garage finally putting him behind bars. Here's in his Volkswagen bug. We're of victims shown Colorado in Utah and that gave them enough evidence to file on him in Colorado. Who was the first degree murder and kidnapping? He was transferred to a Jalen Aspen where he was allowed access to a law library. The judge decreed that he didn't have to wear shackles handcuffs so he walked about the courtroom. For whom and back into the library as Freeman a great deal better than I get to know if I had the guts to thankfully he addressed with an an extra layer yet a sweater onto the one way on the outside so he was planning to go that day. Darwin outside the windows are open and the fresh air. Run through the guy was boom. I'm ready to go to work with Joe PALCA. He was going about two minutes before anyone realized that came out and shouted Kenedy escaped driving through Aspen in a stolen Cadillac. Bundy was quickly picked up by police. You can see him grinning. When he's been captured? He always acted like he pulled one over on on everybody back in custody. He was moved to a new allegedly more secure facility. There was a light fixture that was due to be well. It had not been welded. Bundy had succeeded. In carving a big enough opening in the ceiling of the cell called through the duct just like the movie. It came down into a in closet and the jailer's apartment new the wasn't there and then he put on civilian clothes and he gets out into the night these free again. Once he escaped he had an opportunity opportunity to go somewhere and disappear but he couldn't even do that he had to kill again. Bundy made his way to Tallahassee. The home of Florida State University and the Sorority Chi Omega I had joined the Sorority it Kyle Mak- Living Cayo. My parents felt was much safer than to live in the dormitory being in Cuyahoga was a wonderful careful. Part of life was just like living with forty friends on January fifteenth. Nineteen in seventy eight Bundy broken and started attacking the young women with a wooden club. Police arrived to a scene from foreign movie last up in the they were yelling upstairs. Upstairs and there was a lot of cry and at the top of the stairs was a girl named Karen Chandler and she was down out on the floor she was bleeding quite badly from head injuries. Pretty much every bone in my face was broken. My front teeth Modestly gone I remember then laying on my bed and trying to talk and I couldn't make any noise because my jaw was broken in three places bay. Hey we're the lucky ones a knock on the door from the bone and then get response. I open the door and I went up. pull the covers back and I could see two spinal and beaten about the head. You could tell you that frost up across the hallway and there was another body in the bed Lisa leaving was being severely about the head and body. She also trying so hard to see those girls Dan so sorry for their family likes four blocks from campus. He attacked again. The neighbors heard his victim screams and called all the police say the Cheryl. Thomas is life. I think it was a couple of days before I woke up and I didn't know what had happened. Ah I could not general. I wasn't hostile so I wanted to call the fuel. Mix and what it would take take four weeks for authorities to find Bundy and arrest him in that time he had killed his last victim a twelve year old girl a month after the Carl mega taxes. This man is arrested on a traffic stop. He spends a couple of days stonewalling. Police who is this Smith refused to give his name to authorities and then told his arresting officer Betty would probably get a promotion for nabbing him. He says to the police. I'll tell you who I am. Just let me make a phone and he calls. His old girlfriend told me that he was sick can that he was consumed soon. Bhai something that he didn't understand and that he just can contain it. was that the moment that you knew. The manual loved was a serial killer. took him telling me himself that he he had something wrong with him that he knew you can be around a certain thing that he was addicted to something humint young women and causing them harm wanted for murder in multiple states. Bundy was ultimately put on trial in Florida. The Cayo mega murders. He told me he was going to convince offense. Make it right for the people hurt and then he went on to this. Show saying I'm innocent. I'm innocent I'm innocent today because I assert my Innocence his State of Florida versus Robert. Buddy verdict we the jury the defendant guilty as charged. He was sentenced to death in a separate trial. He was convicted of murdering twelve year. Old Kimberly Leach. The murderer. I think that you felt most connected to was Bundy's last murder because you were twelve. Yeah I mean it's hard to find words for. Oh how devastating it is the loss of this girl and the things that he did. Bundy was executed by the electric chair on January. Twenty Fourth Nineteen eighty-nine. Aw before his death Ted. Bundy confessed to killing thirty. Young women could have been well over one hundred but we'll never know. I still have a sense of disbelief that this man that I loved seemed seem to be such a great guy could go out and do such horrific things too so hard to accept. I'm sure there is guilt guilty about causing Nisa. My daughter's life guilt about what he had done killed that I had loved. This man was so gruesome Ted Bundy falling for a killer is available now on Amazon Prime Video. Hey everyone is. ABC's Paula Farris. I'm the host of journeys of faith as you know all too well. We are in an election year so on this season. We're talking to twenty twenty presidential candidates and other political figures about how their faith and religion influence their person and their politics. Before you tell me about your religion for show it to me and how you treat other people you can call God by many different names but they are worshiping the same God checkout journeys faith wherever. You're listening now.
Con Artists Bites: Prison Escapes
"Welcome to podcast crime lights we wanted to give our listeners some additional content to help them dive even deeper into the true crime world every week in addition to your normal con artists episode, we're exploring the most fascinating true crime themes covered across the podcast network. We've collected short clips from some of our most popular park has originals to help us explore ideas like motivation method and madness and show how interconnected. The True Crime World really is you can find the original episodes of these for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. List of episodes that we used will be posted in the episode description. Today we're discussing prison escapes how common are prison escapes and what methods of escape are the most successful It's difficult to nail down exactly how many prison escapes occur each year. A difference in statewide counting protocols have a confusing effect on the US Bureau of Justice, statistics which report that two thousand inmates escape per year. The problem is that those numbers include technicality escapes like when a parolee comes back to his halfway house in our after curfew or an inmate wanders off from highway work duty. Actual Hollywood style prison escapes are extremely rare. There's one thing that they usually have in common accomplices. Prison culture expert, Michelle Wie die each says that gaining dependable accomplices can be a large hurdle for potential escapees to overcome as it can be difficult trust fellow inmates while. Planning escape. Of course, some lucky inmates don't have to trust other prisoners at all. Deitz says that especially cunning inmates formed friendships and bonds with guards garnering inside assistance with their escape but. Are Most likely to start planning a breakout at all researchers have long tried to answer this question. I was state researchers published a nineteen seventy seven study in criminal justice and behavior which examined female escapees. They found that the females who break out of prison skew younger have longer sentences. And have mental health traits that include impulsively adjustment problems and manipulation. Researchers in Georgia ran a similar study with male escapees and found out like females, the males who escaped prison tend to be young. In today's crime bites will examine three of histories real life prison escapes and see what factors came into play. Our first clip is from gone covering. One of the most well known prison escapes in true. Crime History the Alcatraz escape? In June of nineteen sixty, two Frank Morrison brothers, John and Clarence Anglin escaped from the maximum security prison. Alcatraz. But before Frank Morris became the brains behind the infamous Alcatraz escape, he was a frequent jailbird and had a lot of practice in escaping prison. Frank Morris is generally regarded as the mastermind of the escape having Clint Eastwood play. When a movie, we'll help you reputation like that born in one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, six, Morris spent a large portion of his youth in foster homes before spending most of his known adult life in various prisons. He was orphaned when he was eleven and his earliest recorded conviction occurred when he was only thirteen. He was sent to National Training School for boys and spent the remainder of his childhood in various juvenile detention facilities. By the tiny reached his twentieth birthday Morris rap sheet included armed robbery burglary and narcotics possession after serving time for various crimes in the state penitentiaries of Georgia and Florida Frank was sentenced to ten years in Louisiana State Prison in nineteen, fifty two. He was only twenty five at the time. Allegedly Frank. Morris had an IQ hundred, thirty three which would put him just below genius classification. During his incarceration in Louisiana, he put his intellect to work devising escape plan after escape plan around nineteen, fifty, nine, one of those plans worked brank escaped, but was captured a year later. By this point, Franks criminal history and proven ability to escape warranted him a spot in the country's most famous prison. Alcatraz was considered the last resort prison for troublesome inmates have a criminal was too violent for facilities to handle or if they repeatedly attempted breakouts, they were sent to Alcatraz. Frank arrived in nineteen sixty and despite the intimidating geography of the fortress, he immediately started planning his escape. In, that clip from Gone Frank Morris gained a reputation as a frequent prison escapee which led to his imprisonment. Alcatraz Alcatraz was considered to hold the worst of the worst of inmates and was built to be escape proof guards checked on inmates a dozen times a day. The cell doors were made of steel bars and most intimidating of all the island prison was surrounded by rough sea but Frank John and Clarence successfully escaped by drilling out of their cells with homemade tools and crafting lifeboats out of stolen raincoats. They move. So quickly, the night of their escape led by the early morning guard check the threesome was gone. They remain the only inmates to ever successfully escape from Alcatraz and have never been seen again. Like, Frequent Flyer Frank Morris our next prison escapee made a habit out of prison breaks. Coming up the second prison break of serial killer Ted Bundy. Everyone it's our state and I have some very exciting news to share. Hosting a new original series that exposes the duck disturbing and deadly sight of medicine. It's cold medical murders and I think you're really going to like it. Every Wednesday means the worst. The medical community has to offer men and women who took an oath to save lives, but instead used the expertise to develop more sinister specialties. Join me as I examined the formative years and motives of history's most infamous killers, dissecting medical backgrounds with expert analysis and professional insight provided by practicing MD Dr David Kipper. On medical murders, we'll investigate wide range of heinous healthcare workers like the general practitioner believed to be the most prolific serial killer in modern history. Or the dentists to lead a double life as a Hitman. Or even the doctor and gang member who mixed deadly potions, unhappy housewives to use on their husbands. When it comes to these true crime stories the only thing the doctor ordered. Is Murder. Follow my new series, medical murders free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Cornutus is brought to you by simply safe it was designed to be easy to use. So protecting your whole home twenty, four seven has never been simpler. You can order online with the click of a button once it arrives just open the box, placed the sensors and plug it in. Now your home is protected around the clock and that twenty four, seven professional monitoring and emergency dispatch starts at a reasonable fifty cents a day. Honestly. I feel very good knowing we have the system our apartment was broken into two years ago, and while we lost a lot of irreplaceble lightens, it was mostly a sense of security that was stolen. Having simplisafe, the cameras senses, and even the window decals makes us feel more secure and assured that our home is taking care of should we ever be away for a period of time again? If you want home security head to simplisafe dot com slash con artists, and get a free hd camera. That's simplisafe dot com slash con artists to make sure they know that our show sent you. Now back to the show. So far, we've heard off Frank Morris committed a series of prison breaks until his final meticulously planned to escape from. Alcatraz. OUR NEXT CLIP is from serial killers and it covers the second prison break of infamous killer Ted Bundy. Bundy had spent the early nineteen seventies killing women across five states in the Pacific northwest in nineteen seventy-five. Carol durant escaped from Bundy. When he tried to abduct her the information, she gave police led to his arrest. At, trial, Bundy elected to serve as his own attorney and he became a frequent visitor of the law librarian the courthouse during one visit to the library Bundy notice the guard was turned away from him. So he slipped out a window and hit the ground running. Bundy was on the run for nearly a week before he was apprehended. Returned to prison he flashed his signature grin for the cameras and reporters crowded around him. He cracked jokes downplaying his escape. He told them honest to God. I just got sick and tired of being locked up. For the next five and a half months Ted languished in prison awaiting is murder trial, but he had no intention of setting foot in court. With a twenty five pound head start after his escape he continued to starve himself until he was thin enough to fit through an opening in the ceiling of a cell where like fixture hadn't yet been installed. In the early hours of December thirty, first one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven, ted made his move at less than one hundred, forty pounds. He lifted himself through the hole in his ceiling and crawl through the air shafts into the guards apartment located above his cell from bear he dropped into the room and stole a set of clothes. Then he walked out the front door. Ted Bundy America's most prolific serial killer escaped for the second time and slipped into the winter nice. In that clip from serial killers. Ted Bundy walked out the front door prison after his second prison break this time Monday did not let his freedom go to waste keep traveled to Florida and just one week after his arrival. He entered the Sorority House of Kyle Mega at Florida state. University. Bundy killed two women and sexually assaulted to others in just under fifteen minutes. Less than a month later, Bundy struck again killing twelve year old girl. Four days later Bundy was apprehended stood trial in Nineteen, seventy nine for the Chi Omega. and was sentenced to death. Bundy managed to free himself without anyone else's help. But our final clip covers an entire group breaking free with the help from someone outside of the prison walls. This clip comes from podcast original crimes of passion that Discusses Notorious Bank robbers, and murderers, Bonnie and Clyde. When nineteen year old Bonnie. Parker, I twenty, one year old Clyde Barrow Clyde had already gained a reputation as a petty thief and Carjacker Bonnie and Clyde's love flourished quickly. But only three months after they met Clyde was sent to prison. Monty had never committed a crime before, but she did not hesitate when Clyde asked her to retrieve a gun and smuggled into the prison. This marked a turning point in their relationship for the first time Bonnie Parker officially broke the law to help her lover not only was this more than she would ever do for Roy and now linked her to Clyde in the eyes of the law in the same way they were linked emotionally. The success of the escape exhilarating Bonnie it ignited her adventurous side, a type of adrenaline that begged Bonnie to listen to it to follow it to feel that way again. She talked ceaselessly about Clyde how they would run away together. He wasn't really all bad. The system had doctored. Him forced him to lash out and he got unlucky here and there was all he could go straight. They would live in the woods with just their love and birdsongs as company. Whether Bonnie truly believed. Clyde. was capable of reform is up for debate. But from this point forward, something about the adventure of running from the law called to Bonnie. and. She would do little to resist in the years to come. After several days on the run Clyde Wired Bonnie from Illinois. He was. All right. He had to keep moving for some time whenever the coast was clear. He'd come for her she done. Well, he loved her Bonnie smiled at the praise, but her smile wouldn't last long. Only a week after escaping on March Eighteenth nineteen, thirty Clyde was caught again and Middleton Ohio. He was transferred back to McLennan county jail in Texas sentenced to fourteen years in prison. In that clip from crimes of Passion Bonnie Parker slipped a gun to her incarcerated lover Clyde Barrow who used it to break out of prison Clyde recaptured. But despite his fourteen year sentence, he was released only two years later. Bonnie and Clyde along with members of the barrel k then went on a two year spree murdering and robbing banks across several southern states and when Clyde or other members of the gang were arrested. They helped spring each other out again and again. Today. We heard about three different prison breaks in Gone Frank Morris and John and Clarence Anglin spent months loosening the air vents in their cells and crafting lifeboats from raincoats to make their successful escape from Alcatraz never to be seen again. In. Serial killers. Ted Bundy I slipped out of a courthouse law library window then on the close of a guard in order to run away. And in crimes of Passion Bonnie, Parker committed her first crime by smuggling a gun into prison to help free her new lover Clyde Barrow. Like. The research suggests all of the prison escapees were male and fairly young with thirty five year. Old Frank Morris being the oldest person featured in our clips today. Accomplices were also nearly always employed. It took all three of the Alcatraz escapees to break out and Clyde assisted not only by Bonnie but to other inmates only Ted Bundy was able to slip away on his own. Thanks for tuning into podcast crime lights. We hope you enjoyed this episode on prison escapes. We'll be back next week with a new episode on Unholy matrimony will examine cases of scandalous affairs and murderous marriages. If you like to listen to the episodes we discussed today in full, simply search for our podcast original shows gone serial killers or crimes of passion on spotify. Not only does modify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals for free from your phone desktop, smart speaker. Paul see next time. Killer, nurses derange doctors mad scientists don't forget to subscribe to my new podcast, original series medical murders. Every Wednesday meet the worst. The medical community has to offer men and women who took an oath to save lives but instead use the expertise to develop more sinister specialties. I'm so proud of this show and can't wait for you to check it out. Follow Medical Murders Freon specifying or wherever you get your podcasts.
"The Ted Bundy remains one of the most intriguing serial killers in the history of United States during the seventies Bundy kidnapped raped and murdered. Numerous young women using his charm and good looks to lure them into his traps shortly before he was executed. Bundy confessed on tape to committing thirty murders. Although some investigators believed the true number to be much higher. Welcome to kill her knowledge. A podcast original. I'm Carter Roy. And it's time to learn some true crime history as to players go head to head. In this twenty question Trivia podcast every episode we cover a new topic like the headline making Zodiac murders that shocked the nation violent mobsters like John Gotti who gun their way to the top for the mysteries of unsolved cases like the Black Dahlia. This week we're quizzing knowledge about the charismatic killer. Ted Bundy joining me today to test. Their true crime expertise are robbed from Berkeley. Who is in digital sales in jared from San Diego? Who is a copywriter? Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me happy here before we start. Let's remind our listeners. You can play along with more episodes of killer. Knowledge and find other park asked originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. We also want to hear from you. Our listeners lease review wherever you're listening and reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and on twitter at par Cast Network Rob and Jared Leslie out the rules of killer knowledge for you and our podcast listeners. There will be twenty multiple choice questions. A B and C. Broken up into three rounds fair warning the questions. We'll get more difficult as the game. Plays on a correct answer earns you the points for that question and incorrect answer gives the other player the chance to get it right. Rob If you buzz and I will hear this sound. Jared your buzzer. Sounds like this and one player will be eliminated in round two while the other will move on to play for some amazing prizes including the park cast golden headphones. Make sense to you both. Yep sounds good okay. Let's play killer knowledge. Here we go with round one for this first round. The questions will follow a young Ted Bundy as he evolves from a troublesome child into a ruthless killer while Bundy's first confirmed murders didn't take place until he was an adult. There are theories he may have killed. As a child stemming from the disturbing behavior he showed at an early age for Bundy life began in a very complicated way to start. He wasn't even born with the name. Ted Bundy question number one. What was Bundy's given name at birth a Theodore Anthony Nugent be Theodore Robert Cowl? See Theodore Shah Wilson Rob Be Theodore Robert Cal. Correct Bundy's birth name was B. Theodore Robert cowl. He was born in Burlington Vermont in November nineteen forty-six at a home for unwed mothers. His mother twenty two year old. Eleanor Luiz cowl. Went by Louis. The name Bundy would come later from his stepfather. Johnny Bundy who married Louise In nineteen fifty. One Rob One jared zero because of Louise's age and Marital Status Ted was labelled illegitimate. His family chose to hide this fact from the neighborhood so for the first few years of his life. Ted's family claimed his grandparents were his mother and father for question number two. How did Ted's family claim? Luiz was related to head. They said she was a his aunt. Be His cousin. See his sister. Jared see his sister. Ted's family told him that Lewis was see his sister. According to the book the Stranger beside me by an rule. Bundy confirm the truth in one thousand. Nine hundred sixty nine. After locating his original birth certificate the certificate also included the identity of his father. Lloyd Marshall a salesman and Air Force veteran that makes the score one to one ted. Bundy was socially awkward as a kid and sometimes crossed the lines of normal behavior at one point while still very young. He was caught placing knives around his aunt while she slept. And after moving to Tacoma Washington with his mother in nineteen fifty. A teenage bundy would dig through garbage cans looking for discarded pornography question number three. What else did Bundy admit to doing? While a teenager in Tacoma Washington a killing stray animals around the neighborhood be spying on women around the neighborhood. See Setting small fires around the neighborhood. Jarrett a killing stray animals that is incorrect. Rob Be spying on women. The correct answer is B. He would spy on women in the book Ted Bundy conversations with a killer. Bundy admitted he would get drunk and quote canvas the community for draped windows to see whatever he could that makes the score rob to jared one after graduating high school in nineteen sixty. Five in unfocused Bundy was in and out of colleges. He finally enrolled for a second time at the University of Washington in nineteen sixty nine on. That's where he met and fell in love with the school employees. It was a rocky romance that would last for seven years question number four. What was the real name of? Bundy's on again off again girlfriend. A Elizabeth Clever B. Elizabeth Kendall C make Anders Jarryd. Hey Elizabeth Clever Elizabeth clap for is the right answer. Their relationship would even continue into his incarceration in Utah. In nineteen seventy six clever published a book about the relationship under the name Elizabeth Kendall and was referred to as Meg Anders in an rules. Book the Stranger beside me that makes the score to two two from nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy-two bundy state focused worked hard and finally graduated from the University of Washington. Question number five in. What field did Bundy get his bachelor's degree hey psychology be biology see sociology rob see sociology? That is incorrect. Jared a psychology. Yes bundy graduated with distinction with a psychology degree. Then he wanted to attend law school. In September nineteen seventy-three. Bundy began taking night classes at the School of law at the University of puget sound but his law school attendance would be interrupted by his desire to kill. That makes the score. Jared three rob two in early. Nineteen seventy four. Several women went missing and were murdered in the Seattle area as we now know this is when officials claimed Ted Bundy truly became a serial killer question. Number six according to the timeline of his murders. During what years did Bundy operate as a serial killer? A nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy six. B Nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight. See Nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty ROB B. Nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight. It is be nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight but as we mentioned before some theorized. Bundy killed much earlier eight year. Old Ann Marie. Burr disappeared when Bundy was fourteen years old. He always denied any involvement in her disappearance. That makes the score. Three three Bundy's first confirmed murder took place in February nineteen seventy four when he attacked and abducted Linda an healy from her home near the University of Washington. Healy was known in the community forgiving. The Weekday Ski Report on the radio when she didn't show up for work. Her boss informed her roommates and they began to suspect. Something was wrong. Question number seven. What Evidence did detectives fine to suggest foul play a bloody knife? Be Bloody fingerprints. See Bloody Bedsheets Jared see bloody bedsheets? The correct answer is c bloody sheets. Investigators also found blood on. He Leaves Nightgown. The only closed that were missing. Where the one she had been wearing the night before before kidnapping her Bundy had beaten. Healy unconscious then. Put her back in her blue jeans. Light blasts and boots that makes the score four to three in favor of Jared Bundy spent most of nineteen seventy four killing young females in Washington and neighboring Oregon roughly once a month a big part of his. Mo involved alluring victims to his Volkswagen Beetle. Witnesses began filing reports with police. The description of Bundy and his car went public. So question number. Eight according to witnesses. What caller was BUNDY'S VW? Beetle Silver Be Tan. See White Rob. Hey silver that is incorrect. Jared be Tan. Bundy drove a hand Volkswagen Beetle. A multiple witnesses also described an attractive man who used the name Ted and sometimes spoke with a British or Canadian accent. That makes the score. Five to three for jared now in order to get his victims near his car bundy regularly employed the same ruse to fool the unsuspecting victims into helping him question number nine. Which of the following is a trick? He regularly used a he asked for help reading a MAP BE. He claimed his keys. Were stuck in the lock see. He wore his arm in a sling. Rob See war is. The answer is C. Bundy war his arm in a sling till look helpless wants his victim got near the car. He would strike them over the head and forced them into the vehicle. Bundy had removed the passenger seat. Creating space on the floor for his victims to lie out of sight as he drove away. That makes the school. Jared five rob four. When August Nineteen seventy-four ted? Bundy was accepted to the University of UTAH. Law School he moved to Salt Lake City leaving behind his girlfriend. Elizabeth Police Investigations and flyers. That had been distributed all round Seattle with a description of him and his car. The move did not stop him from killing again however not every woman. Bundy tried to kidnap and murder fell victim to his schemes question number. Ten to end round one in November nineteen seventy four which Bundy's victims escaped from his car and later testified against him. A Carol Dhiraj Be Laura. An amy see Melissa. Ann Smith Rob. Be Laurie and amy his incorrect. Jared see Melissa. Ann Smith Matt is also incorrect. The correct is a Carol ranch while all three women were attacked by Bundy to Raunch was the only one who escaped alive. Bundy picked her up outside of the Fashion Place. Mall in Murray. Utah that November. He claimed he was a police officer and had seen someone trying to break into her car. The score remains five to four. In favor of jared now. It wasn't until the following year. August nineteen seventy-five when police arrested Bundy for the first time. After pulling him over and his Volkswagen they found suspicious items including handcuffs rope and a ski mask. This is when the clues of Bundy's crimes would start adding up and Carol ranch would help confirm his identity that brings us to the halfway mark. We've now covered Bundy from youth to kill her. When we come back we'll see robin jared know-how Bundy escaped from prison twice as he continued to murder more innocent women and one of our players will be eliminated from the game. Welcome back you're listening to killer knowledge. I'm Carter Roy. Robin Jared are competing in our Trivia. Podcast to see. Who's the real true crime expert this week? We're looking back at the life and murders of American serial killer Ted Bundy. The score is jared five rob four and before we get into round two. Let's get a little rules. Update the questions are still multiple choice. Abc in the correct answer is worth one point each. However there's a twist in this round called the killer question. That question is worth three points because there are no multiple choice options. You either know the answer or you. Don't you better hope you know it because one player will be eliminated at the end of this round to keep playing? Yep Ready Okay. Here we go with around two other questions in this round will take us up. Until Bundy's final attacks has law enforcement struggled to keep him contained now after several women had been assaulted or killed and Carol Durant Gift Bundy's attempted kidnapping his on again off again girlfriend. Elizabeth Clap for from Seattle began contacting authorities and Salt Lake City to report suspicions that Bundy was the culprit. They soon added him to their list of suspects. At the beginning of nineteen seventy five. Bundy took his criminal ways on the road. Again for question number eleven. What state did bundy travel to where he killed several more women? After leaving. Salt Lake City a Arizona the Colorado See Wyoming rob a Arizona that is incorrect jared be Colorado the Colorado is the right answer. Bundy would also travel to Idaho in. May Nineteen seventy five where? He took the life of one of his youngest victims. Twelve-year-old year old. Lynette dawn culver that makes the score. Six two four jared. Unfortunately the walls closed in on Bundy. Between August and October of nineteen seventy five police found suspicious items and hair from victims in. Bundy's Volkswagen landing him in a police lineup where Carol durant identified him as her attacker. The kidnapping and murder charges against Bundy were set in June. Nineteen seventy seven. He found himself in a courtroom in Aspen. Colorado this is when he made his first escape from custody. Bundy chose to represent himself in the trial so he was excused from wearing handcuffs or leg. Shackles during a recess. Bundy was able to jump out a window and get away so question number twelve. What was Bundy's excuse to get near an open window? He asked to use the Courthouse Library. Be He asked to make a phone call. See he asked to use the restroom. Jared be he asked to make a phone call. That is incorrect rob. Hey he asked to use the courthouse. Library is the correct answer. Bundy jumped out a window in courthouses law library on the second floor where he went to quote research his case. Bundy injured his right ankle on the landing after hiding in the mountainous areas around Aspen for a few days. Sleep-deprived and injured. Bundy got caught after being spotted recklessly driving a stolen car. That makes the score. Jared six rob five in December nineteen seventy seven. Bundy escaped custody for a second time over a six month period. He managed to get a hold of a hacksaw. Blade cut through the ceiling of his jail. Cell and wriggle into a crawlspace but in order to fit into that space he had to lose a lot of weight question number thirteen according to his old defense attorney. About how much weight did Bundy lose? Ten pounds be twenty five pounds. See Fifty pounds. Jared be twenty five pounds. The correct answer is B. Twenty five pounds. According to his former attorney some reports say it could have been as high as thirty five pounds. But either way Bundy starved himself to fit into the space. He then crawled his way. To the chief. Jailer's apartment broken changed into street clothes and simply walked out to his freedom. That makes score. Seven to five in favor of jared and that sound means it's time for the killer question as a reminder. This is not multiple choice. You either know the answer or you don't and this question is worth three points so Boston if you know the answer after escaping for the second time. Bundy was on the run. He made his way to Denver where he hopped a flight to Chicago. He took a train to Ann Arbor Michigan and drove a stolen car to Atlanta from there. He boarded a bus to Florida so question number fourteen. The killer question worth three points. What Florida City did Ted Bundy travel to in January Nineteen Seventy Five Rob Tallahassee Tallahassee? Florida is the correct answer. Bundy chose Tallahassee as his destination on a whim more or less he wanted to be near water and had traveled to Florida once before in nineteen sixty eight for the Republican National Convention. By getting the killer question rob has taken the lead. Eight two seven now a nationwide. Manhunt began for Bundy who continued to feed his hunger for murder. While on the run in the early morning hours of January fifteenth nineteen seventy-eight. He broke into a sorority house at Florida. State University brutally killing two female students and left two others with serious injuries. Question Number Fifteen. At which Sorority House did Bundy? Carry Out these attacks. A kappa sigma be they apply. See Chi Omega. Jared be data that is incorrect. Rob See Chi Omega. See Cayo Mega is the right answer. That makes the score. Rob Nine jared seven. According to an rules book the stranger beside me Bundy carried out the attacks on all four women in under fifteen minutes but he didn't stop there the same night as Ko Mega Bundy carried out a similar attack at an apartment building near the Sorority House. Luckily FSU Students Cheryl. Thomas survived that attack. Then on February Ninth Bundy killed for the last time when he took the life of twelve year. Old Kimberly Diane Leach. The FBI finally added Bundy to. It's ten most wanted fugitives list. Question Number Sixteen on what date was Ted. Bundy placed on the FBI's most wanted list a February tenth. Nineteen seventy eight. B February Fifteenth Nineteen Seventy Eight C February twentieth. Nineteen seventy-eight jared a February tenth nineteen seventy eight February tenth nineteen. Seventy eight is the correct answer the very next day after he had killed young Kimberly Leach. At the time. Bundy was wanted for murder in six states. Shockingly it only took three days after being added to the FBI list. That bundy was back in custody. Question number seventeen to end this round. How was Bundy captured for the final time a driving a stolen Volkswagen beetle be running from the scene of an attack see? He turned himself in. Jared a driving a stolen. Vw Beetle. The correct answer is a. He was driving a stolen. Beat up you beetle. Around one thirty am on February fifteenth. An officer pulled him over after running the license plates and discovered the car was stolen at first. Bundy resisted arrest fighting off the officer but he was finally taken into custody for the final question of round. Two has left us with a tie. Nine to nine which means we're throwing in one more question to determine who moves on to round three and who will be saying Goodbye Ted. Bundy's life story typically involves many mentions of Elizabeth Club for but while in Prison Bundy married and a child with another woman. Rob And jared your tiebreaker question. What is the name of Ted Bundy's wife and mother of his child a Carolina Ford Be Caroline Boom Rob? Be Carolyn Boon. The correct answer is B. Carol and Boone Bundy famously proposed boone in nineteen eighty during one of his trials while questioning her about their relationship. The end with that question. We've come to the end around two with a tiebreaker question. That makes the score. Rob Ten jared nine on. Fortunately that means we have to say goodbye to jared. You've got so much knowledge to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me now. We're GONNA take a short break and come back with the last three questions of the show with Bundy back in prison. The killer finally talks before his ultimate punishment is carried out. How much does rob know about? Bundy's last days and will it be enough to win the coveted par cast golden headphones. Find out in round three. Welcome back to killer knowledge. I'm Corduroy. We've been quizzing Robin Jared about the sly and dangerous serial killer Ted Bundy now. Jared was eliminated from the game after scoring nine points. In the first two rounds Rob score ten so only he will be answering the questions in round three for chance to win some amazing prizes. Now this time points. Don't matter glut right answers. Do here are the rules. There are three multiple choice questions each with two answer options a or B. So you'll have a fifty fifty shot. Each correct answer is worth an amazing prize. Get One answer right. And you'll get spotify premium account free for one year if you get two questions right you in a role in an episode of the podcast original solve murders hosted by me. And if you get all three questions right in this round you win. The coveted par cast golden headphones and the chance to come back for one of our best of shows to compete against other killer. Knowledge Champions Rob. Are you ready ready? Okay here we go with around three while in prison. Waiting for his appeals in court bundy began talking to FBI. Special Agent William Hague Meyer of the Behavioral Analysis Unit. He told Haig Meyer. That murder was not just a crime of lust or violence to him question number eighteen. What did Bundy say? Murder was about a possession. Be Obsession be obsession. That is incorrect. Bundy said that murder became about a possession. He claimed that after he killed someone they were forever. One and the place where he left the bodies and often revisited were sacred ground. Unfortunately robbed that means you will not be winning the podcast. Golden headphones. But you can still win a year free of spotify premium and roll on the podcast original unsolved murders with all of Bundy's known victims being young white women. It's no surprise his girlfriend. Elizabeth Clever would wonder how she wasn't one of them. She got her answer during late night. Phone call with Bundy while he was in prison according to her book. The Phantom Prince my life with Ted Bundy Bundy admitted that he once had the impulse to kill her question number. Nineteen how did Bundy's say he tried to kill? Elizabeth CLAP FOR A. He set her apartment on fire while she slept be. He closed the chimney so she choke on smoke from the fireplace. A he said her apartment on fire while she slept. I'm afraid that is incorrect. The correct answer is B. He closed chimney so she'd choke on smoke. He told Club for he had also put a towel in the door crack so the smoke would stay in the apartment while you haven't won. The park has golden headphones or the role and unsolved murders. But you can still win. Spotify premium free for a year after several appeals stays of executions and changes of dates. Ted Bundy was scheduled to be put to death on January. Twenty Fourth Nineteen eighty-nine question number. Twenty the last question of this episode. What did Ted Bundy request as his final meal? A steak and eggs be nothing. Be Nothing the correct answer is be. Nothing thing was served steak and eggs but he did not request it. Bundy declined a special meal. So given the traditional last meal steak cooked medium rare eggs over easy hashbrowns toast with butter and jelly milk and juice. Ted Bundy then died in the electric chair at Florida. State prison. His body was cremated and his ashes scattered at an undisclosed location in the state of Washington. Congratulations rob you. Want a year of spotify premium free. Thank you and thank both you and jared for being here now. There have been many theories about what was wrong. With Ted Bundy. The underwent many psychiatric examinations with medical professionals and behavioral specialists. Bipolar disorder dissociated is entity disorder. Sociopath psychopath have all been thrown out there to describe him but whatever. The true dysfunction was within Bundy. One thing was missing guilt. Bundy once said guilt is in his words a mechanism. We use to control people. It's an illusion. It's a kind of social control mechanism and it's very unhealthy. It does terrible things to the body undecided. I don't feel guilty for anything. I feel. Sorry for people who feel guilt to everyone listening. Thank you for playing killer. Knowledge with US L. Let us know what you thought about. Today's episode by leaving a review wherever you're listening and by reaching out on facebook and Instagram. At podcast in twitter at PODCAST NETWORK. You can also listen to more episodes of killer. Knowledge and other power cast originals on spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Killer knowledge was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original it is executive produced by Max Cutler produced by Kristen Osservato key to MIRA and Jonathan ratliff sound designed by Paul. Leave Iskin Killer Knowledge Stars Carter Roy. Come back next week to hear who will become the next. True crime extract.
November 24, 1946: Serial Killer Ted Bundy Is Born
"This episode is brought to you by the makers of clorox disinfecting products. When it comes to helping keep your home. Healthier and safer leafy outside outside and trust clorox disinfecting wipes to kill ninety nine point nine percent of viruses and bacteria including covid nineteen virus when used as directed on hard nonporous surfaces. Feel confident that your home is disinfected for you and your family when it counts dressed clorox learn more at click's dot com pseudomonas salmonella and influenza virus type a to kill sars cova to on hard nonporous surfaces uses direct and today is tuesday november twenty fourth two thousand twenty on this day in nineteen forty six notorious serial killer. Ted bundy was born in burlington vermont. Welcome to today in. True crime podcast. Original due to the graphic nature of today's crimes listener discretion is advised extreme. Caution is advised for listeners under thirteen. today we're covering the early life of ted bundy. a man. His own defense counsel called the very definition of heartless evil. Now let's go back to november twenty fourth nineteen forty six to the elizabeth lund home for unwed mothers in burlington vermont. Eleanor louise cowl. Was twenty two years old when she gave birth to her first son ted. It wasn't a particularly happy experience for louise. Estranged from her deeply religious parents for having a child out of wedlock. She felt forced to hide her condition at a home for unwed mothers in vermont but after louise gave birth. She went back home for the next four years. Little ted cowl lived with his mother and grandparents at their home in philadelphia in later interviews. The men who became ted bundy claimed he had a normal upbringing told reporters that he grew up in a wonderful home with two dedicated and loving parents. It's important to note here. That ted often told conflicting stories to interviewers and had no qualms about lying to them as far as his upbringing. The truth was far less idyllic than ten claimed his grandparents. Samuel and eleanor cowl. Raised him as their child. He believed his birth. Mother was actually his sister as for the true identity of ted bundy's father. That's up for debate while louise claimed it was a sailor. Ted's vermont birth certificate reportedly listed thirty year old air force veteran loyd marshall as the father in other instances lewis claimed that bundy's birth father was another veteran named jack worthington. But according to some there was another contender. Ted bundy's maternal grandfather. Samuel cowl was a violent man who may have fathered his own grandchild however no paternity test was ever performed. So it's impossible to tell who the birth father really was in nineteen fifty four year old ted and the woman he believed was his sister moved to tacoma washington in nineteen fifty one. Louise met a hospital. Cook named johnny bundy the two married later. That year and bundy formally adopted. Ted even in this more normalized situation. Ted had a difficult time socially he didn't get along with his new stepfather and his painful shyness made it hard to make friends in tacoma and by this point ted had already begun to show an inclination toward violence back in philadelphia. His aunt julia claimed she had woken one night to find herself. Surrounded by kitchen knives. Ted was standing nearby watching her. Ted's behaviour only escalated in washington as a child and adolescent. He devoured criminal detective magazines searching for crime scene photos. He developed an obsession with violent pornography and according to forensic psychologist darryl turner. He also reportedly exhibited signs of conduct disorder per the american academy of child and adolescent psychology conduct. Disorder is the umbrella term given to a wide variety of persistent behavioral and emotional issues a child diagnosed with it may show signs of aggression towards others. Have a lack of empathy have trouble following rules. Be deceitful and destroy. The property of others as ted bundy grew into a teenager. His antisocial impulses drove him to wander the streets of tacoma he liked to search for discarded pornography or spy on unsuspecting women in their homes. The police even arrested him several times. For stealing. one of the defining moments of bundy's young life came one day in nineteen sixty when he was approximately fourteen years old according to prison psychologist. Dr carlyle bundy said he came across his birth certificate in an old trunk. His mother was named as louise's cowl the woman he thought was his sister in the spot where his father's name was supposed to be written a hospital. Administrator had penned the word on no in that instant everything ted had known came crashing down again. We may need to take this account with a grain of salt. According to another biographer. Anne rule bundy sought out his birth certificate in nineteen sixty nine at twenty two when he founded in burlington vermont. It listed lloyd marshall as his father but someone had stamped the word illegitimate across the page. Whatever truly happened. Most of bundy's biographers agree that some time in his early teenage years he discovered his supposed sister was actually his mother and his father was known. Some believe this revelation made bundy resentful towards his mother perhaps it even added to the misogynistic streak already bubbling under the surface of his friendly veneer. All of his later crimes showed a particularly brutal hatred of women. But even still as ted bundy's childhood came to a close. It seemed impossible to imagine the horrific acts he would soon commit up next will learn about the greater impact of ted bundy's upbringing on his crimes. Listeners here's a new show. I can't wait for you to check out when it comes to love. Every story is unique. Some play out like fairy tales seemingly meant to be others defied the odds to achieve happily ever after in our love story the newest spotify original from podcast you'll discover the many pathways to love as told by the actual couples who found them every tuesday. Our love story celebrates the ups downs and pivotal moments. That turned complete strangers into perfect pairs. Each episode offers an intimate glimpse inside a real life. Romance with couples recounting the highlights and hardships that. Define their love. Whether it's a chance encounter a former friendship or even a former enemy. Our love story proves that love can begin and blossom in the most unexpected ways. Follow our love story free on spotify or wherever. You listen to podcasts today. True crime podcast. But i thought for now. I'd give you an update on what i call today in. Best means for those of you who aren't familiar best. Fiends is an incredibly fun yet. Casual puzzle game. I've been playing a lot recently and have made it all the way to level five eighteen. I like playing. Because i like to solve puzzles. And best. Means is of challenging puzzles. In fact at best fiends gives you over five thousand of them and adds more levels events and challenges all the time. And i'm certainly not the only one who enjoys playing best fiends. This match three game has over one hundred million downloads and counting so check it out. It's free to download and you'll never be bored again. Download best fiends free today on the apple app store or google play. That's friends without the our best fiends. Now back to the story by nineteen seventy four. Twenty eight year old ted. Bundy seemed to be a well adjusted. Young man on his way to a successful political career he'd become involved in the republican party working in nineteen sixty eight at the republican national convention. He graduated college in nineteen. Seventy two with a psychology degree in nineteen seventy four. He'd enrolled in law school at the university of utah and the troubled shy boy who was once. Obsessed with violent porn had now had multiple healthy relationships with women from the outside. Bundy was moving towards a bright future. But inside behind the mask bundy had already decided to follow a different path on january fourth. Nineteen seventy four ted. Bundy attacked his first known victim. He broke into the apartment of eighteen year old college. Student karen sparks. He beat and sexually assaulted her. Although karen survived the attack she sustained debilitating physical and brain injuries. Ted was not identified as the suspect over the next four years. Ted bundy crisscrossed the country attacking wrapping and murdering young women. Though he later confessed to killing thirty people he could have possibly hurt or killed. Many more ted. Bundy was the prototypical. Charming psychopath many. People who encountered him recalled him being handsome and charismatic. He relied on these traits to low his victims into a false sense of security. He often targeted college women and took advantage of their sympathy and youthful naivety. He would offer rides to female students in hitchhikers in his ten volkswagen bug relying on his looks to calm their fears. He often feigned an injury approaching people while on crutches or with his arm in a sling to ask for their help other times. He posed as an authority figure a police officer or firemen to convince his victims to do what he said once. He had someone alone near or in his car. Bundy would strike them on the head with a pipe or crowbar. He raped assaulted his victims before ultimately strangling or bludgeoning them to death. but bundy's quest for gratification. And control didn't stop there he would visit. The women's bodies repeatedly often practicing acts of necrophilia with them other times he kept their corpses in his own residence until the decay forced him to get rid of them. But bundy's activities soon drew scrutiny from the authorities in november nineteen seventy four. He attempted to kidnap eighteen year old. Carol durant at a utah mall but she escaped from his car in august. Nineteen seventy five. The police finally pulled bundy over in. Granger utah. they found a ski mask rope a- crowbar and handcuffs in his volkswagen bug. The officers recognized his car and supplies as matching those used in the raunch attack and arrested him over the next four years authorities tied bundy to dozens of murders. He escaped prison twice in. Nineteen seventy seven. While on the lam. He also killed three more victims but he was caught after evading the authorities for two months on july twenty fourth nineteen seventy-nine ted bundy received the death penalty for the murders of to florida state university students and a decade later on january twenty fourth nineteen eighty nine. He died in the electric chair at the florida state. Prison in raeford florida. It's hard to tell exactly. To what extent bundy's tumultuous ringing influenced his later crimes. Perhaps living with his violent grandfather exacerbated a natural tendency towards aggression maybe a teenage discovery about his mother's true identity only codified the hateful thoughts. He'd been fomenting about women but with bundy gone and only his contradictory statements left to go on. That's something we can't quite prove. He had issues in his childhood but so do many people in fact his mother louise went on to have three more children with bundy's stepfather johnny and none of his half siblings murdered anyone. The classic argument falls to nature versus nurture. How much one's personality and predispositions affect them. Compared to the environment they're raised in but in this back and forth hard to find a definitive answer to what makes a killer and we don't actually know what ted bundy honestly thought about his mother or grandfather or how he was raised. He frequently lied about everything including his childhood and with that in mind it's hard to trust his final thoughts on the subject. Because as he told interviewers there's nothing in my background. Which would lead one to believe that i was capable of committing murder absolutely nothing. Thanks for listening to today in true. Crime i'm vanessa. Richardson for more stories like this. Checkout are spotify original from podcast. Serial killers ted bundy today in true. Crime is a spotify original from podcast. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and all. Other park cast originals. For free on spotify. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in true crime today in. True crime is a spotify. Original from podcast. It is executive produced by max cutler. Sound design by one boorda with production assistance. By ron shapiro. Carly madden and bruce kovic. This episode of today and true crime was written by molly quinlan with writing assistance by alex. Benetton and fact checking by logging. I'm vanessa richardson. Don't forget to check out our love story. The newest spotify original from podcast every tuesday discovered the many pathways to love as told by the actual couples who found them. Listen to our love story. Free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Filmmaker Joe Berlinger Goes in the Dark Mind of Ted Bundy
"This is kick ass news. I'm Ben Mathis. When you need energy on the go and don't have time to wait in line, grab it spreads. So monster, Espresso monster is a premium blend of Espresso and cream made with freshly brewed Espresso, coffee hormone free milk, and a unique energy blend complete with taurine and B vitamins each can has three shots of Espresso and comes in vanilla Bresso and Espresso and cream flavors. I had one this morning before I came into the studio, and let me tell you it gave me just the boost I needed to get my day going, plus it tastes so delicious. I'd drink in anyway. So close your eyes, take a sip and enjoy Espresso Munster today. And now enjoy the podcast. Murder the person of this type hungry on field would also leave him with the obviously irrational belief that the next time he did movies seal. And the next time. He did it. Or the next. I'm not free the personality. Hi, I'm Ben Mathis. Welcome to kick ass news. That was the chilling voice of America's most notorious serial killer, Ted Bundy from a new true crime docu series that premieres on net flicks today, titled conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes, the foreparts special brings an infamously twisted mind into the light for the very first time through exclusive never before heard interviews from Ted Bundy himself this unique and gripping docu series focuses on a man whose personality good looks and social graces defied the serial killer stereotype allowing him to hide in plain sight as he committed the brutal sex crime slayings of more than thirty women before being caught in nineteen seventy eight it also examined the role that the media played and sensationalizing everything to do with Bundy. And how it paved the way for America's obsession with true crime as entertainment, and it's no coincidence that the director of converse. Nations with the killer. Is none other than Joe Berlinger who's been credited as one of the fathers of the true crime genre with his award winning documentaries like brother's keeper and the paradise lost trilogy today. Joe comes on the podcast talk about why he wanted to reexamine the Ted Bundy murders on the thirtieth anniversary of his execution and how he gained exclusive access to more than one hundred hours of prison interviews with the notorious killer, he discusses how one of bundy's first jobs gave him an inside view of the flaws in America's law enforcement system, how Bundy exploited those weaknesses to his own devilish advantage, and how it led to dramatic changes and how the F B I profile serial killers. And how state and local police share information. We talk about how Ted bundy's clean cut good. Looks helped him elude capture the groupies who showed up to support Bundy during his trial and the movie heart-throb Joe Berlinger cast in a new feature film about Bundy. We talk about the media serve. Circus that turned Ted Bundy into a household. Name the influence the Bundy trial had on the modern true crime genre. And why Berlin ger known as the father of the true crime documentary doesn't actually like the term true crime coming up with the ward winning filmmaker Joe Berlinger in just a moment. Joe Berlinger is an Academy Award nominated and EMMY and Peabody award winning filmmaker behind such landmark true crime documentaries as brother's keeper and the paradise lost trilogy as well. As the rocky memory Metallica some kind of monster in many other films. Now, he's produced and directed a four part docu series called conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes which debuts on net flicks. January twenty fourth as well as a dramatic film, titled extremely wicked shockingly evil in vile, which premieres at Sundance just two days later. Joe Berlinger, welcome to the podcast. Oh, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Well, this documentary was just fascinating. And it comes on the thirtieth anniversary of Ted bundy's execution. What do you think is at the core of our enduring fascination with this monster? Yeah, you know, I think I it was convenient that the thirtieth anniversary of his exit. Cuche in kind of gave, you know gave the show an organizing principle, but I think thirty years from now will still be fascinated with Bundy, I just think because you know, he taps into our deepest darkest worst fear. Not that not that we're going to all be killed by serial killers per se, but rather the person next to you is ultimately unknowable because Bundy defied all stereotypes of what you want to think, a serial killer looks like and feels like, you know, people wanna think that serial killers are these odd social outcasts that are easily identifiable in society. But the reality is and particularly for Bundy who embodied this, you know, Bundy was a charming good looking guy that people liked who, you know, he declared his innocence for a long time a lot of people believed him. And so the whole idea that somebody could be so evil could be the. Serial rapist murderer of over thirty women, and he did terrible things to these women both before and after death that it's a person whom many people liked and admired, and that's that's our deep. I think a very deep dark fear that that he and fascination that he taps into. I mean as Bundy himself says in the show, you know, murderers, do not come out of the shadow with long fangs dripping in blood. They are people, you know, you like you work with you admire who the next day or capable of of the most demonic evil possible. You know, so that's that's my fascination with him. And also, I you know, the other reason I thought it was a good time to take a look at him. Now is that? You know, I don't need to tell anybody that. There's seems to be an insatiable appetite these days for anything true crime related. I've never been busier. And there's never been more stuff coming out about you know, that's crime related, and I think we can trace that all the way back to Ted Bundy because Bundy who represented himself at his own murder trial the Bundy trial in Miami was the first nationally televised trial. It was the first time cameras were led into the courtroom and people just saw serial murder as entertainment of from gavel to gavel for the first time, and you can take that line and trace it directly to the OJ Simpson trial in ninety five and then to where we are today, which is just we just seem to have this fascination with this kind of material new just talking about the fact that Ted Bundy wasn't what you pictured when you think of a mass murderer. He was handsome. Well-spoken well-dressed how much of this. Do you think played into his ability to allude capture for? So that that that was part and parcel to how he was able to go on a multi state killing spree and not be captured was people just didn't think that this guy could be capable. In fact, some of his earlier murders were in Seattle in the Seattle area in this place called lake sammamish, which was outside of Seattle the this state park, and he was so he had escalated his killings instead of nocturnal preying upon a female walking alone in in an alleyway type of killing this time at lake sammamish. He he brazenly went out in the open on a very busy weekend day at a at this park that was on a lake and he brazenly approached numerous women to which was his class. Classic Rusi had fake cast on and asked different women. If. They would accompany him to help him put a sailboat on his vehicle, and even though he successfully ended up killing not one but two women that day. There was enough people who heard him say his name Ted who heard him say he had a VW and enough information was gleaned by authorities that a composite sketch was made of him, and when this newspaper article with the composite sketch circulated around Seattle, including his name in the his first name Ted and the mention of his VW a lot of Ted's friends pointed to the newspaper and said, oh, boy, isn't that a coincidence a guy named Ted, and he has VW to and look at the sketchy kinda looks like you. But nobody thought oh jeeze. Maybe he's the killer. I think the fact that he was able to present himself as a up and coming lawyer law. Lawsuit made people, you know, give him a pass yen at one point wasn't even going into politics. I guess it was on the staff of a gubernatorial campaign. Do you think that he saw himself one day becoming president good question? Well, you know, there's certain psychopaths have lots of things in common in their aspiration for the high the high office. But I I don't I don't think he saw himself that way. I think I think actually, sadly, despite the outward appearance, he had this nagging, insecurity, this nagging emptiness. And that's what compelled him to kill. So I'm not sure he really thought of himself as somebody who was going to have that career. But I think others who looked at him thought he was on the path to success the skeleton around which you built this document series is a collection of over one hundred hours of audio interviews with Ted Bundy from prison win. And how did you first become aware of these recordings was Stephen Michaud? Oh, and Hugh Ainsworth who are journalists. They conducted these interviews in nineteen eighty right after his conviction. The these audiotaped interviews and had exclusive access to Bundy. And they turned it into a book called conversations with a killer and Michaud was a fan of my work and reached out to me. And when I heard these tapes, you know, fairly recently, I thought, wow, this is something amazing to build a show around. I like how you use the word skeleton. But you know, we might wanna use that word a little more careful as as as it relates to this story. Just just kidding. But when I saw that the tapes were, you know, when I listened to these tapes, I thought, you know, because there there is a lot of stuff on Bundy out there already. And so I and I've always been fascinated by his story. But I never. I thought I would be adding to the kind of you know. Shows and media that's already out there about Bundy. But this these tapes, you know, felt like there was something new to say so my partners at radical media. And I went to Netflix and to see if they were interested in they agreed that there's a real opportunity here to tell a somewhat familiar story through a whole new point of view in a new lens, and that is entering into the mind of the killer himself to get some kind of understanding of how he operated and why he operated, and you know, it's utterly chilling. And fascinating to hear the killer himself talk about his crimes, I'm interested in how these two journalists you and Steven actually got permission to do this. Because a lot of people requested interviews with Bundy in prison, and he always turned them down. But Stephen and Hugh convinced him by reaching an unusual agreement with Ted Bundy could you talk about their deal. You know, Michelle. Ios agent. You know, reached out to him saying that Bundy was looking for somebody to tell his story that seemed interesting to those guys because you know, at the time Bundy was declaring his innocence. I mean, that's another hallmark of Bundy in that, you know, most serial killers once they're caught, you know, just love to spill the beans about their evil acts Bundy maintained his innocence throughout the trials throughout the entire appeals process and didn't actually confess until days before his execution in nineteen Eighty-nine. And even that was a cynical attempt to extend his life because he hoped that by becoming useful. And finally talking about the crimes that was his kind of you know, Ason the hall that would keep, you know, investigators investigators would want to keep him alive until they closed. These many cases in multiple states that were still technically open. So I think Stephen and Hugh thought well if he's telling the truth, and he is innocent. Then it's a hell of a story. And if he's not telling the truth, and and we reinvestigate the case, and we have access to Bundy, it'll still be an interesting story. So they decided to sign on. And kinda Stephen was tasked more with doing the sit down interviews while he went off in tried to put together the pieces of the case. Of course, us investigation turned up the fact that you know, Bundy was obviously the killer. It sounds like he's sent them on a fool's errand. And they actually talk about having a certain amount of buyer's remorse at some point because he would just jerk them around for hours and talk about his idyllic, childhood and bloviate about this and that and anything other than the murders. How did they finally get him to talk about that even though Bundy was looking to tell his own story and look for some investigator to exonerate him. Stephen wanted to drill into the crimes and. Bundy kind of refused to talk about the crimes which defeated the whole purpose of why were they were there? And so Steven had this kind of epiphany in which if he you know, he he offered to have Ted just be an expert witness to talk in the third person. And he theorized that if Ted was allowed to talk in the third person, you know, a serial killer loves to talk about their crimes, but he didn't want to implicate himself legally. And so he suggested to Ted that one one you talk in the third person and tell me what a person like this might do if they were in this situation, and you can kind of be an expert for me, and that idea really appealed to Bundy and Bundy, then it was like the floodgates opened. And he started talking, you know, quite extensively in about. You know what? A killer would have done in these crimes and clearly he's talking about himself because the the level of detail that he knew clearly suggested that that he was the person doing these things, but it allowed him to talk in a way that didn't implicate him legally, they admit in the documentary that they got pretty frustrated with all the games Bundy was playing with them. And eventually they just got sick of being around the guy. Yeah, they were fascinated by the time. He started to talk. But by the end of the process, they were so disgusted by what they learned from this person that you know, they had had enough. You know, I I can relate, you know, I've done now kind of almost simultaneously. I did the scripted movie with Zach Ephron lily Collins, which takes a different part of you. And I've been deeply immersed in the in the tapes and doing the series, and I am, you know, not that I'm sick of talking about the show right now to use to take the wrong way. But but it's it's the. Acts that he did are so vile what he did to another human being so repulsive, and he demonstrates such a lack of remorse, which was one of the remarkable things about my entry into these tapes was just a deeper understanding of how that mind works, and how remorse lis- he was. I'm sick of it too. Because it's just you know, it's the darkest side of humanity. That's been revealed here and their experience of kind of being led along by Ted Bundy was not uncommon one constant weather. It was Bundy talking to the reporters or even to the FBI whether he was on the Lam from the law or standing trial. He seemed to always be one step ahead just toying with people and relishing these little mind games Bundy was a master manipulator. I mean, his whole MO approaching women with fake cast or limping with a with a fake crutch. You know pr-? Paying upon the female instinct to nurture seeking out help and then using that to isolate a woman by his car and then killing them in horrific ways. Whether it's that or declaring his innocence or manipulating his live in girlfriend, which is the subject of my scripted movie was Acque Ephron, but he was always doing things to trip up the police he would change his modus operandi and change up. How he did the crimes he would leave things at crime scenes that had nothing to do with the crimes to confound them. You know when the heat started getting hot in the Washington state area after that lake sammamish brazen daytime attack onto women resulted in a sketch of him being circulated in the Seattle paper. He moved onto Utah became a member of. The Mormon church as cover continued on his on his killing spree. You know, he was enrolled at the university of Utah law school, but he chose to go to law school in Utah. As a way of getting out of Seattle, we're gonna take a quick break. And then we'll be back with more with Joe Berlinger when we come back in just a minute. If there's something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals better. Help online counseling can help. Better. Help offers licensed professional counselors who are specialized initials such as depression anxiety relationships. Trauma anger family conflicts, LGBT matters, grief, self esteem and more connect with your professional counselor in a safe private online environment and get help at your own time. And at your own pace, anything you share is confidential. And it's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist. If for some reason, you're not happy with your counselor though, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option. Kick ass news listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with the discount code kick. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash kick. Then simply. Fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love that's better help dot com slash kick. And now back to the podcast. I want to ask you a little bit more about this scripted feature film. That's premiering alongside the documentary. Does it take a different angle on Ted Bundy than the documentary? You know, lily Collins plays the real life, Elizabeth club for who. You know? That's an aspect of the story. That's so fascinating to me that during the six years that Bundy was doing most of his killing he was living with this woman named Elizabeth club for who we met in a bar in nineteen sixty nine and for six or seven years, they had a wonderful relationship. He was a terrific surrogate. Father to her daughter from another relationship he was by all accounts at terrific boyfriend. So he was just you know, masterfully manipulating people. Although I think he actually really did love a Elizabeth in as much as a psychopath can love that relationship is what I focus on on in the scripted film. Extremely wicked and Zach Ephron. Plays Ted Monday and lily Collins plays Elizabeth for. Yeah. Which is perfect because he did have a certain movie star like quality to him. You wouldn't want to cast a monster to play Ted Bundy? Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's, you know, in many ways, we're kind of poking at Zaks kind of teen heartthrob image that he wants to get away from, but is still part of his personality part of his kind of persona and Bundy, you know, even at his Miami trial after much of the information was already out in known to the public that trial was attended by a number of, you know, I hate to use this word groupie, but that feels like an appropriate word number of young women who were so titillated by the idea of Bundy in the courtroom that they had to go for themselves and witness witness the trial. He had that kind of pull over women, which I. Found fascinating. Yeah. And it's interesting because America seemed to have this duality with Ted Bundy where there was the revulsion in the fear. But there was also especially after he escaped from custody, not once but twice this sense of him as a folk hero and sex symbol, and it's absolutely astonishing. You know that a guy who, you know, kept declaring his innocence. And yet the legal troubles kept mounting, and he escapes from prison not once but twice and while he's on the Lam does his most vicious killings in Florida at Florida State University in Tallahassee the cuyahoga sorority killings. You would think that somebody who was, you know, had the presence of mind to plan to prison escapes. I mean who who who escapes from prison once let alone twice you would think that he would learn his lesson and lay low, but that compulsion to kill was so strong that by the time it got to. Florida two weeks after his second escape he does some of his most vicious killings. And yet he still had his admirers and fans, and there was this odd duality as you say of of, you know, people, you know, fearing him, but also almost according him some kind of folk hero status which continues today. I mean, it's just it's, you know, a America, you know, has five percent of the world's population yet, we've had sixty seven percent of the world's serial killers. And the one name that constantly floats to the top despite those many, many serial killers. We've we've you know had here in America. The Bundy name is just so well known and I think, you know, it goes back to bundy's trial. He was this was the first nationally televised trial the. First time serial murder was kind of turned into mainstream entertainment because basically technology meeting this increasing fame of this guy. Just a few months before his trial. A number of new stations were still shooting news on sixteen millimeter film. But around the time of the Bundy trial, this new satellite technology, and electronic news gathering as we know it today was was just coming into its own. And so that allowed live coverage of his trial. The Florida judge allowed the cameras in because it was such demand for coverage from around the world by the time the trial started. I mean, there were cameras from fifty states in nine countries watching this horror unfold gavel-to-gavel, you know, you can draw a straight line from there to the Bundy execution when Bundy was executed ten years later. It was the first time mobile satellite. Trucks were kind of in vogue, and his execution was also a live television event. Obviously, they weren't looking at him actually being executed, but all the fanfare outside of the death house was covered, you know, extensively. And I think because he was our first media celebrity in terms of criminality in a whole new way of covering these stories, it, you know, it's made him into this this memorable figure that people have, you know, all sorts of odd feelings about. Yeah. And he almost seemed to have an intuitive instinct for how to manipulate the media you talked about during the trial, and how he was allowed to be his own co-counsel and lead his own defense cross examine witnesses, and he's filing all these crazy motions in court. Like, you know, I want to quote unquote, change of menu because he's tired of eating grilled cheese sandwiches or proposing marriage to a witness on the stand. I it seems like. He's playing more to the press than he is to the jury. Yeah. Absolutely. He was playing to the press. But also, I think to his own detriment legally some of the things that he did trial. I think greatly benefited the prosecution merg sample very early on the prosecutor Larry Simpson called the PO the first police officer who was at the crime scene at for the Cayo mega murders. The the first police officer to show up at the scene, and the prosecution was not planning on diving too deeply into into the details of the crime scene because they were going to present forensic evidence later in the trial. So is a very brief kind of just table setting establishment of the crime scene, and and this particular police officers role in it Bundy to the consternation of his public defenders. Stood up and decided to cross examine extensively with great detail. The crimes the this officer who was the first at the crime scene and going into such detail that everyone in the courtroom kind of felt like this was a serial killer or a killer relishing going over the details of his crimes, and you know, it it it did not help in the minds of the jury that he did those kinds of things and yet he played to the to the press into the media and the and the and the spectators in the in the galley were hugely entertained by him. And I almost wonder if you think that maybe the theatricality of his defense strategy pre-stages what we see in politics today, where if you can create enough distraction in theory, maybe the facts won't matter. I think that's a I think that's a very good point. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. You know, he was. You know, he was somebody who just kept denying denying the Niang. And and a lot of people signed on but much to their chagrin later when he confessed just a few days before his execution. I mean, the the most notorious example of courses caroll-ann Boone a worker of his from earlier days in Washington state during the Miami trial. She came down to support him. They ended up falling in love he proposed marriage to her while during the mitigation phase of his death sentence during the Kimberly Leach trial, which was the second trial after the Cayo mega sorority trial and he proposed marriage because he became aware that you know, a declaration of marriage proposal in an open court in front of court. Officers crew. Created a legal marriage in the state of Florida. And you know, the prosecution dismissed it as charade designed to you know, you elicit sympathy like who's going to you know, how how can you sentence me to death on my marriage? They give me give me life without parole. Instead that was that, you know, how the prosecution and many people perceived it, and yet the public just kind of ate it up and caroll-ann said, yes and still believed in his innocence. And they actually you know had a child together while he was on death row. So it was it was an extraordinary set of circumstances. I was interested to learn that before he even began his killing spree. I think he worked at the Seattle crime commission. Do you think that gave him an insider knowledge of the weak spots in the system that he could explode to his advantage? Oh, absolutely. I mean, the fact that he had that kind of knowledge of you know, how police investigations worked as. Is one of the many ironies and interesting facts. I think Bundy is very much a product of his of of the era. You know, the the seventies was a time before many police investigation techniques had been created for example. There's a common perception that profiling F B I profiling is what captured Bundy, but it's just the opposite. The failure to capture Bundy after his conviction caused a lot of soul-searching at the FBI and led to the creation of their profiling program. And so Bundy was interviewed by the FBI after his conviction as a way to, you know, start creating this profiling program, you see a fictionalized version of it in in the Netflix series mindhunter. But this was you know, the local police. Departments. All of whom I think did as good job as possible. So this is not to criticize either the King County police in Seattle or the Colorado police because in Colorado, for example, Mike Fisher, the detective there was tenacious in trying to solve the murder of Karen Campbell. But police departments didn't routinely share information there were no central databases forensics as exists now was in a far weaker state. There was no DNA evidence. There weren't even fax machines, or you know, police are police departments communicated by teletype. There was no internet. So Bundy, you know, exploited the system and was able to elude capture for for far too long. In fact, to me, one of the most fascinating and horrifying things about the Bundy case, you know, in particular is that you know, he was apprehended three times he was apprehended in Utah. And that ultimately led to his conviction. For attempted kidnapping of Carol Durant. He was apprehended in Colorado after his first prison break six days after his prison break, he was apprehended and he was apprehended in Pensacola, Florida, which ultimately led to his his final murder trial in Miami for the cuyahoga killings. But in each instance, he was not arrested because the police were on his trail, and they caught the right guy. Each of these arrests were because he was driving stolen vehicles you radically and an alert police officer noticed either a stolen vehicle or the erotic driving. And that's the reason he had been pulled over in each of those three instances, and then only later did they realise who they had in in custody. So I've always kind of thought it's amazing that had Bundy been a better driver. He might never have been caught. Wow. In the aftermath of Ted bundy's killings, you mentioned that the F B started, profiling serial killers. And there's this kind of silence of the lambs mind hunter aspect to all of this where at a certain point Bundy began actually helping the FBI with cases in volunteering is theories and information about different active cases, or what kind of things was he telling them and was it useful? I think a lot of what he's he offered. The FBI was useful. And again, it was you know, sent his cynical attempt to keep himself alive by bargaining information. But you know, he had, you know, a unique insight, and I think for Bill hag Meyer, the FBI agent who interviewed him, and who was part of that profiling program, I think he was incredibly useful to them. So some good came out of the Bundy saga. But at obviously way too high a price. I wanna go back to his execution because as you mentioned the media circus even carried through all the way to his death. Seth you show. Thousands of people gleefully showing up at the prison selling souvenir t-shirts shooting off fireworks in this macabre carnival around his execution in a strange way. Do you suppose that the ultimate sociopaths final? Masterpiece was that he made the media and by extension America as a whole just a little bit more callous in less than pathetic. I think that's an outstanding point. And one of the things that troubles me, including myself. You know, I'm I-. I impartially self reflexively looking at how we've become this nation of what I call rubber neckers where you know, we do want to see what's happened to other people. We do look at crime as entertainment, unfortunately. And while I like to think that much of my true crime stuff. In fact, I hate that moniker. You know, if you look me up in the Wikipedia page it says, I'm a true crime pioneer. But true crime for me is you know. Is a mixed bag because sometimes, you know, it's just wallowing in the misery of other people. And I hate to think that that's what I do. You know, there's a certain aspect to my work that I believe, you know, as I've advocated for the wrongfully convicted I've helped wrongfully convicted people get out of prison with my work with the arise law series. You know? So there's a social Justice component to my true crime filmmaking and yet I'm part of genre. That takes other people's tragedies. The worst tragedy you can imagine the loss of a loved one, and we make entertainment out of it. And you know, I'm highly aware and conscious of that. And I do think all of that the the circus like atmosphere, the t shirts that were being sold. You know, burn Bundy burn, you know, people driving by with banners, you know, FSU students wanting revenge who you know, were not old enough. We're probably ten years old when the crime. Uh-huh. Actually happened. You know, I do think it's it was kind of a low point. And a floodgate of where we are today where there is an insatiable appetite for this type of programming. And I think often the victim is forgotten. You know, we have to remember that there are dozens of family members dozens and dozens and dozens of family members who are the the victims as well of bundy's crimes, and I do think, you know, and I'm applying the criticism to myself. So I'm not immune from it. But at least I I wanted to pull back and analyze I think sometimes our our desire to examine these crimes is often at the expense of the victim. Well, I want to also ask you about that social Justice aspect to what you do your most famous documentary paradise lost played an instrumental role in freeing, the young men who were wrongfully accused of murder, and I wanna. Her how you feel about the ethical state of true crime today. Do you worry that you might have created a monster in that too many directors in this next generation are now starting with the innocent man, ending in mind in skewing, the story to fit their desired narrative? You know? Look, I think the worst one of the worst things that could happen to a person is to be convicted of a of a crime that they're not guilty of and that and prosecutors have unique power to take away your personal liberty and sometimes they don't always play by the rules. So and once you're convicted it's really hard to get unconvicted. It just it takes far too long for the wheels of Justice to operate. And sometimes they don't operate at all, you know, it's estimated that, you know, five percent of people in prison by many experts are are wrongfully convicted, you know, with two million people in prison in our country every day. That's a lot of people who are. Potentially innocent, you know, more and more filmmakers taking up the cause and shining a light on these injustices. I think can only be helpful. I just hope that it's done responsibly and not done in a way where we're letting guilty people go free. But I think by the time these cases make it into the lens of filmmaker. You know, there's a pretty good chance that the person is is innocent. So I don't necessarily think we've we've created a problem. We have such a problem with the criminal Justice system is in such need of reform on so many levels from over sentencing from the legacy of the the the the the horribly conducted war on drugs, the racial inequity. There's just so many issues of incarceration that need to be addressed that I don't think there can be enough films and television programmes being made Mike my fear is not that they profile the wrong person. My. Fear is that there's so much documentary activity going on these days the form has never been more popular. There's so much activity that I hope people don't become you know, kind of. Immune to what's going on. You know, it's it's, you know, sometimes we become so inoculated from having any feeling because we keep hearing the same situation over and over again, you know, when brother's keeper in paradise lost first came out, they were rather unique films. And so they were able to cut through and tell their stories now, we have so many of them that I hope people really pay attention to the underlying issue as opposed to just treating it as the latest piece of entertainment to consume. And then forget about we'll before we go. Do you think Ted Bundy was insane? Or is that a cop out, you know, one of the things the tapes taught me is that he was highly aware of what he did. It's not like some act done by a split personality or an M amnesia. He was highly aware, and therefore it's hard to say was. The insane or not insane. Because anybody who would do these kinds of things is by definition insane. But he was a highly aware of his acts, and therefore he got the the punishment. He deserved. Whoa. Conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes debuts on net flicks. Thursday, January twenty fourth and Joe's film, extremely wicked shockingly evil and vile Ramirez at the Sundance film festival this weekend. Joe Berlinger, thanks so much for talking with me. Good conversation. Thanks for having me. Thanks again to Joe Berlinger for coming on the show conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes is available on net. Flicks beginning today, January twenty four and also look for his feature film. Extremely wicked shockingly evil and vile at the Sundance film festival and in theater soon. If up with Joe at Joe, Berlinger dot com or on Twitter at at Joe Berlinger. Whatever struggles you're facing from depression and anxiety trauma and grief better. Help can connect you with a professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. It's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist and anything you share is completely confidential. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option. Kick ass news listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with the discount code kick. So why not get started today? Simply go. To better help dot com slash kick. And fill out a questionnaire to get matched with the counselor. You'll love today again, that's better help dot com slash kick. If you haven't already be sure to subscribe to kick ass news on itunes and leave us a review, you can follow us on Facebook or on Twitter at at kick ass news pod. And as always, I welcome your comments questions and ideas at comments at kick ass, news dot com. I'm Ben Mathis. And thanks for listening to kick ass news. Kick ass. News is a trademark of Mathis entertainment Inc.
#1261, Autumn Warren Connolly, Author Monica Berg
"The content of the following program is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment or cure always consult your physician or a health professional with any questions. You may have regarding a medical condition. When Life Radio is brought to you by our sponsors, great companies like Sun Warrior. The pioneers, a plant based protein from the Sun to the plant to you go to Sun Warrior Dot Com to learn more about all the products and use the Code Ilar for twenty percents off your order. Environmental cut makers of terror flora, a novel, broad spectrum, symbiotic, combining spore form, probiotics and advanced food based ancient prebiotics, find tariff, flora, and the full line of. Of Products, at, environmental dot Com Paleo magazine now all digital go to Paleo magazine dot com, subscribe the Wellbeing Journal Veg World Magazine the International Society of Sports Nutrition and Thorn Research. visit our dispensary at one life radio, Dot Com for twenty percent off and free shipping. You can find more information on all of our sponsors. Including links to listener discounts on the one life radio DOT com sponsor page. Thank you for listening to one life radio. The you WanNa, go higher baby. Your is a right place. You're listening to one light radio. This is Bernadette with. Davis and we are broadcasting live from Dallas Texas on media as well as Cammy T and southern California on ABC News. Talk how you doing today. Rinaldo happy Monday I'm doing great happy Monday to you as well. Yeah, yeah You Know I. Did you have a good weekend? Yes, we are yeah, we'd sit there Son to a are godmother that's out here in Texas this weekend and my wife and I. We just set back and chill the whole weekend Ni-. Nice. I WANNA. I WANNA ask the obvious question, but I go in there. You know I'm a I've always been like that very open conversation. About things like sex, but anyway I hope you had lots of this weekend and got to Relax with Brittany your wife so You need a break from the kids. You really do I. Mean every couple of needs that having children is. is an incredible task. You just don't know it until you're there. So definitely a full-time job. Yeah, no, it is well. You know we've got a great show. Today we do I'm very happy to announce. It got Monica Berg coming up. She is the author of rethink. Love and fear is not an option She's incredible. She's the chief. Communications Officer of Kabbalah Center International, which is a nonprofit organization in a nearby Los, Angeles California, that provides courses on the Zohar and Kabbalah. Teachings online as well as through regional and city centers and study groups worldwide, so we're going to be talking about her incredible book. Fear is not an option. You'RE NOT GONNA. WanNa. Miss it! She's got she's got just incredible insight and a lot of life experience like the other woman that I have dear friend Autumn Connelly on the show today. is with us how you doing today autumn. I'm good. How are you this morning? Afternoon I'm good. If I'm being honest, I'm a little frazzled. My phone wouldn't connect with my road caster last minute so I'm doing the. Show solely at least for right now. I'm going to try to fix it at the break on my phone. I just one of the obstacles you know when you do a home rod cast, and so, but you know a few more weeks and we should. We should be able to get back in studio and get through it when all of the Kobe nineteen. You know kind of settles down the spread of it. And what do you think about all that autumn? Haven't asked you that, and before you answer that question, let me tell everyone who you are. Perhaps they're listening for the first time out of Connolly with on the show for many many years she moved to Arizona with their three kiddos and I almost in. Their, animal babies. And? She lives in the Sky Islands of Arizona. She's a creator of and traditional healing a company dedicated to restoring microbiome health to Diet You can follow her on Instagram at and bill traditional healing. She knows a lot about a lot of things. She's a self taught Vegan Shop, a serial Gardner at an avid believer and a teacher of the healing powers of education. You're just an earth Mama all the way around I mean whatever I need a question answered your first one that I that I reach out to so We're talking about really. Yeah, WE'RE GONNA be talking about some cool stuff today. Would you the law of expectancy and how to make homemade toothpaste? and. I do plan to put together a video for you so just nothing else on Yeah, no I'd like to put it on her social media I. Would and you know a lot of people don't understand the the law of expectancy Do you want to do you want to start with that, so we don't have sure. Okay so about. It. It's pretty much, you know. It's pretty much in the title there, but essentially life is what you expect of it, and so the you know simplistic approach say will then you know expect good things don't expect bad thing. However the Mo- more complicated choose of it all is that the majority of people tend to have very negative thoughts very self, limiting self, doubting thoughts, and so even though you may outwardly to friends or family appear to Appear to want to essentially get your together. You know you on the inside is where where the expectancy really matters, and so the law expectancy is basically saying you know what you what you truly feel, and what you truly believe about your limitations that that's what manifest in your life so. there's a lot. There's a lot of science back this up isn't there are a lot of psychological studies that have shown the that the basic reason you sent this to me for a person. Success is that he expected to succeed that ninety percent of the population has negative patients. Right right and so you know it even comes down to things like your skill, your talent, so your Iq you know, your experience in a certain thing if you have if you if you are a negative person on the inside, and you are matched with somebody that has similar skill set, or even a lesser skillset that they have what's called they they are positive inside about themselves. They have They have enthusiasm towards what they're doing. Then the person who has the positive enthusiastic attitude will often score better on something than the person who intellectually or experience chilly should have done better. Well. Yeah, and you know that enthusiasm is really I speak from personal experience is really what carries you through? It helps you to persevere through the most difficult times. It's kind of like the power of positive thinking, which is a really old book and Who's WHO's the author of that? I can't pull it up right now. I should by heart but positive thinking. I don't Is it a, is it? Now I don't know. Well. I'm not Texas here in a minute, but it's an incredible. The thing is with the with the enthusiasm actually looked into it recently and the word and the word enthusiastic. It's a Greek word, and it comes from. It means God and within. So, an interesting thing and instant word, and what does it changes? It changes your It changes your whole internal, your whole internal energy, and just by able to believe in yourself. You know the God self with. Well, this kind of going signs with what we're talking about with, Monica Burgas well like her book series, not an option I have to tell you you know i. read it over the weekend and it's. It's an incredible book, and it's a lot of what we're talking about. You know you can't succumb to fear no matter what you have to. It's Kinda, like you are what you think right so if you expect to be successful, it gives you momentum to be successful. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. That's I mean that's one hundred percent of it. The thing is people oftentimes. They don't know how to cultivate the enthusiasm. They don't know how to cultivate the positive They don't know how to get out of the trap of fear and You know a lot of the same stuff that I've always talked about you know meditation as a way to create base that the way to you mentioned earlier. How so many people have negative thoughts? Ninety percent of the population at part of your monkey mind part of? Of the kind of the empty space that you have in your mind, it composes of a lot of self, referential thinking and a lot of self referential. Thinking is stuff like I'm too fat. My kids are too noisy I don't have enough money and that sort of thing so when you have got something around in your head all the time it's difficult to overcome fear because you've already created this lower vibration in yourself, whereas if you take him out to meditate, or you take time out to journal or maybe even time to just Fit with yourself and be at peace, and you know, express gratitude for what it is that you have an you can actually change the amount of self referential, thinking and also change it to be a little bit more positive, and it allows fear to kind of. Go into the background instead of foreground Well you know when we were talking about this over the weekend you know we talked about looking forward to the future with expectations and enthusiasm. What people back you think what is the reason that some people can and some people cannot. You know there's a simple truth to it and it's just work. and it's. It's something that I preach so I'll try to keep it to a minimum, but it it works you can't just. You can't just say today. I'm going to be positive. It involves are are negative, thinking or ideas I'm a limitation those things that have been programmed into US subconsciously from the time we were babies and the idea that we are going to change what what our life is. What our reality really? Is a lot of work for the average person myself included in that you know you've got to. We've got a set goal, and you have to be clear about the goals that you set and the goals that you want. You have to wake up every day and you have to do the work that takes action to put forth those goals. You also have to take time to do the meditation. He's gotTa take time to not just. Not just flippantly meditate, but dedicated to your meditation yet to Take Time Yahoo. RIGHT OUT! You know in your journal what it is you want to manifest, and it's as something happens all throughout the day every day, and we all know why and how it works. You know there's always GonNa be a storm here and there and. Came to consistency during the storm. You know every when everyone wants to feel sorry for themselves or Get down on themselves, and instead you know that's the time when you have to rise above and it's a real challenge for. The real challenge for anybody. I mean we're householders. We're not monks. So the idea is to have the awareness that the work is demanded of you in order to get you to this place, and then it will be like the universe is conspiring to give you everything you've asked for, but I get to that place where you're doing the work on. You're telling the universe. This is what I want and I'm serious about it and here's how you know. I'm serious because I'm doing everything to get myself there. and sometimes it's difficult to get up and motivate yourself. It is for all of us and but if you don't do it, you're not going to succeed. success doesn't just fall in your lap. You have to work for it. I believe that with all my heart and I, you know I have different people in my life that I try to do you know share that message with them? Maybe are struggling with this or that, and not that I'm you know this? No at all. It's not by any stretch of. Of Imagination, but no I haven't I what you are, and what you have that a lot of people don't have. Is You have a natural enthusiasm and a lot of I kinda do that so usually at something you get from a parent, you know. I don't know young parents with enthusiasm mother, but it is a bad the hereditary traits so for somebody like you to have a natural enthusiasm in combination with a good work ethic. You know it, it does. It makes it so that you are capable of succeeding where other people otherwise wouldn't. well, it brings you a lot of joy to it does. That enthusiasm and it's something that it is something that my mother taught me, and my father lost her her father at four and her mother at night, and so you know she was forced to to to to carry on and and find that inner strength somehow. My mother sang a lot like you do, yeah. I can, I can hear her going on. The house singing that Song and I'm totally not GONNA sing it. Because I won't be able to Do it well, but you know that Song I have confidence in Sunshine I Rain. You don't have talking about from Yeah you know the thing is with music. It's funny. You say that because music is actually a way to help yourself, remember you know if you're writing if you're writing a manifestation list journaling, and you wanting to write down new ideologies that you might want to accept as part of Your Life, listening to music, and having essentially a soundtrack that goes along with it actually allows it to go deeper into your subconscious, so you're saying that your mom was singing a song. You know allowing part of the pontious to come out into the conscious room and so the. It's kind of a neat little as a neat thing that a lot of people do you know? Out knowing sitting here with a big smile on my face and my heart, just full of good memories, my mom was. She was she was a tough one. You know she was. She was the disciplinarian in the House for sure, but she also was always the light 'cause. My Dad had a tendency to get down and get dark and you know Let Life beat him up and my mother and I guess that's why they got married, and they were so badly loud for so many years. Is that the the light and the dark attracted one another but I. Want. One of her favorite songs was people who who look people are the luckiest people in the world. S UC knowing it's a really high pitch song. Oh my Gosh Barbra streisand. Yeah it's a really old song, but but my mother loved it and she used to sing that song all the time, too. And so. In, a way! Yeah and she was very spiritual to. She went to church every morning. You know every single warning. That was part of her drill. She'd go to the church. And pray and that was her meditation. Probably are escape from all the children and. She had this incredible light about her. So yeah, and so and right now everybody's saying you know it's the dedication. You know the fact that she had her little routines, she had her. The things she did to make herself be able to act from a higher level of conscious, a higher level of self awareness and the average person it does, but all it is is a just a commitment to it commitment to doing something that you know. Which is hard for at five for me. Yeah I'm going GONNA. Give a shout out to my friend Patty Bernardo. Who is actually her cancerous tumors shrinking we? She's on a really good protocol that Sean well. It's helped her with and Joel Lane and myself at the thing about Patty is she. We call her positive patty. Suzy has for life, and not you know. Yeah, you know taking too long to to wipe around tears, but going reaching out to other people and being a light, and she's probably going to survive it. and it was very aggressive cancer. Cancer a very rare cancer and the tumor shrinking, and so something to think about, but I love having amazing show autumn worn connelly. We're GONNA. Continue on talking. We're going to have a little chat. We're GONNA. Talk about how to make homemade toothpaste and I'm going to try to get hooked up to my road cast during the break, so we'll be right back, everyone. You're listening to one live radio. Arrest. Too. I. What everybody else doing. Just! Doing what they are. In! This. Also. For for? Dot! Out Everyone. This is Bernadette with Rinaldo Davis and Autumn Connolly. Is still with us. She is She's she's amazing. She's truly amazing. She's one of my dear friends, and she lives in the Sky Islands of Arizona with her three kiddos and animals babies. She is the creator of and Bill Traditional Healing a company dedicated to restoring microbial house through diet. You can follow her on Instagram at Ambil traditional healing out of his also A. A self taught big shock, a serial Gardner and an avid believer in and teacher of the healing powers of meditation. You can contact her at meditate with autumn at G. Now dot com, that's meditate with autumn at G.. Now DOT, com Tell us about your product. It's for sale on Amazon right now. autumn for everyone that didn't maybe here, maybe joining us. US for the first time and doesn't know about it because it's not true, it's truly a great product, and it's a do it. Yourself Kit at home and it's fabulous. Tell us about yeah. It's basically a way to make your own probiotic supplement at home, but instead of it being a capsule or being freeze dried or some other form. It's live and active. Active and ready to work from the moment you put it in your mouth all the way through your digestive, so you get along the benefits and the healing powers or probiotics, and you would otherwise class because I am a single mom and I have a bunch of little kids. Running around wanted to make it at a price point that regular human could afford. It. You know if you were to go. And buy a high quality program within. Family with a couple of hundred dollars a month to take when every day whereas I wanted to be something, you can drink every day, and you only have to spend for a family of four fifteen dollars a month so plus. Venture? It's Kinda like Kombucha Right I. Mean You, can you? Can you use your own fruit flavors I? Don't like getting all those glass bottles. You know all like my favorite Kombucha there's a couple of different ones. that I buy and They're in glass bottles, but I always feel guilty about you know not being able to repurpose reuse I always recycle, but I just feel guilty about so that way many of them. Right exactly, but I really liked Kombucha the thing I was GonNa ask you though how do you control the alcohol percentage content so you can keep it real low if you. Want to maintain sobriety. I'm not going to be very low. Temperatures are higher and what you retail. Wise as they pasteurize them, but that also when you pasteurize to kill that The alcohol content to lower your also killing all the probiotics that are involved in a boo, so a lot of that they just as benefits are ruined as well with the product that I that I'm selling. The East is what controls the amount of alcohol and fermented foods, and so I have a very limited amount of. Used in there just enough to make it soft carbonate and not enough to turn it into something. That's very alcoholic in addition to that because you can make it yourself at home. What you're doing is you're consuming at fresh on michelotto retail products that are probably more on sold This is something you're drinking right after it's been made and the alcohol content really only creeps up azcarate than in a bottle for three to six weeks so okay Lab Tests on it and it's something that I feel a hundred percent comfortable to my one year old. In fact, she drinks an absurd amount of it. Wow. Yeah it's. It's wonderful I. Mean it really is and the do it yourself projects or so great especially right now in so many people truly are broke. truly looking looking for things to do their kids. You know just things to do to be more self sufficient to in case our supply. I feel yeah, and it's a good way to feel good about yourself to something you feel like I have accomplished a thing, and it's the thing that's good for me, and it tastes good. You know it's like yeah. There's so many when you become. Start becoming around self advocate and you realize it's. Untapped world of you know. Fun Thing for you to do that. Actually feed your soul and feed your body rather than detached from it. It's It's a wonderful feeling I. think yeah and contribute to your family I'm thinking of all the men out there that can fix all kinds of stuff and how rewarding that is for them. This is kind of thing, but you don't see many men typically in the kitchen. You know may not stuff like that out because he's always ninety to do around that. At least this house. Yeah. No kidding! I'm got a bit of. US Oh. My Gosh well. You know I've always been trying to educate people about the dangers of toothpastes. Their typical toothpaste out there that was let's loaded with fluoride, and all these really bad things unless it's a natural toothpastes, but you are gonNA. Tell us today how to make homemade toothpaste and you're also going to shoot a video. We're GONNA put it on her social media. So where do you begin? How do you make homemade toothpaste and? Put it in. Well, yeah, the. Simplest thing that I like to tell people is. it's not a magic formula, so you know people people buy things packages you know and they think that there's some sort of statistical analysis. There's something going on behind the scenes to make sure that there's this much of this ingredient and that much of that ingredient toothpaste at one hundred percent personal preference, because the real goal of toothpaste is to have a little bit of Abrasiveness to get class and get off get off any sort of film that that like grown on their any sugars or any facts or anything like that from the eating, and then maybe what you WanNa do is something that's a little, got a little bit of an extraction to make your teeth look a little bit whiter or something that has some sort of antibacterial anti microbial properties to it, and now that you put in, there is really all relative, if you. have been buying natural toothpastes for a long time. You'll notice those times. They have the exact same ingredients. And yet they all teased a little bit different, or they have similar events in this one and that one. It's just a combination of different things and so i. I've come to learn my preference and my family preference and but you know I'll give ingredients, and I'll give basic basic measurements, but at the same time. It's something that you can totally just have fun with. You can't screw it up You can't screw it up. Yeah, right now. I've got a two, but David toothpaste that I'm using. You know I just going to be really transparent. One of the reasons I picked first of all it was natural, and I didn't I never thought about making my own homemade Tuesdays, and the packaging was pink, and so it's aesthetically. I'm very attracted to it. It's a really pretty shaping. Well Definitely something that you want it to be. Of course I like to keep my. I like to star minor little colored slip top ceramic jars, so they look pretty, and they look at you and there. With with kids, you don't get those lid you know missing and you know generally remember to put it back on and stuff like right Oh get. Precipice because I think I'm GonNa do it today. 'cause I'm I just think it would be really fun, and it would be fun to go now as a gift, and also you could even do this for like a birthday party. Thing with kids right? Sure. Yeah! Kids love it like Henry. My ten year old. He loves putting together the toothpaste because of the fun element. It's Kinda just like for what you want. Is You want it? You want to take the basic ingredients so basic ingredients something that everybody probably has in their house right now is going to be baking soda like a quote at it, and so they're not necessarily arm and hammer hammer like all you got and use. Use it whatever I like to yeah, ones that are more naturally derived that baking soda and then a sea salt, so the sea salt has the anti microbial type properties, the baking soda has grit to it, but and then an essential oil. That's a super basic. You don't WanNa do anything you don't want any fuss. This is a it's going to taste like baking soda with essential oils flavor. It's not going to be Super Yummy. But if we go in your kitchen and your attitudes pace, you can just whip the you can throw those things in a bull Durham up, and then I sprinkle it on our hands with the little spoon, and then dip our toothbrushes, and the what we? What Oh gum disease I would think that the sea salt in toothpaste homemade to like you're talking about would be really really good at fighting. Gum Disease Sea salts great, and then what I do I do. I do up a little bit of a notch in my household just to cover all what I feel like are the you know dental hygiene basics, and I will also add in two so my basic formula, just baking soda. You saw an an essential oil, but then on top of that I'll add in via tall but I try to find a natural birch derived xylitol, not chemically Super Xylitol. Only chemical one grade go for it. It's it's largely in there, and you're not swallowing it and the antibacterial properties xylitol has are pretty good for dental hygiene, so put that in her that and and ear infections right, and for actions to write for a lot of stuff. It's not something I would recommend using in my in my health opinions as a sweetener. I wouldn't WanNA consume it, but for using topically or using it. You! Know as you brush your teeth I'm all for it that way. And had to be careful auto. Because I have to get this out because you have to be careful with that, though, too that you don't let the it'll kill a dog, won't it as ayatollah, but they were like licking the toothpaste, so be careful out of a a PA AH dogs. Pot is yes, that's not good for them at all, so I mean that kind of a chemical that they can't metabolize. So and then another ingredient I like to put in is some various play. I like to use Ben Tonight Clay, but it doesn't look like it can be If you have like an inca clay or you have like diatomaceous earth type of can be a type of clay. You can put that in there. What I like about that is it's a whitening property. Clay actually draws out draws out in your teeth are actually even though they don't see like they're very porous. So when you put clay in your toothpaste, it's whitening your teeth at drawing out the stains or drying out Drawing out even even even decay. You know yeah. Cavities with with the right with the right with the routine you can reverse cavities, and so I like to put all that in sometimes I. Even put a little activated charcoal, but for me. For me, the benefits of activated activated charcoal in toothpaste are not necessarily outweighed by child spitting it all over the sink. Well I'M GONNA. I'll good stuff. You know environmental and makes a magnetic clay to that. You can buy in this big that I. Actually have some I'm gonNA. Make some tonight and puts Rebecca. Claiming there as well, but always good stuff I wanNA. Talk to you forever. WE GONNA do a chance, but we don't have time unless it's a really quick because we gotta go to break. We've got Monica Bird coming up I talk about dealing with fear. How about a thirty second can't how about that well and the and your segment with that? Let's let's do it, but when we were GONNA. Do We on Tyrod Jami and it's just a sense that means so the heart meaning look to other and look to yourself from your heart. So I love it and I'll talk to you later and give us a chance autumn. We'll do. Okay touted. Cap It. Pay! Down Now I gotTA. Say Hi Sue I. Could Cut Santana. Go. All right love you sister, take care of yourself. And maybe. All right bye, all right everyone stay tuned. We've got a fantastic show continuing on with Monica. Burke. She is the author of fear is not an option. We will be right back. You're listening to online radio. Free. Off. Own! Phone. Welcome back, everyone. You're listening to online radio. This is Bernadette with Rinaldo. Davis and our special guest today Monica Berg She's the author of rethink and fear is not an option. She is the chief communications officer of the Kabbalah Centre International, a nonprofit organization located in Los Angeles California that provides courses on the Zohar and Kaba Lipstick teachings online as well as two regional and city centers and study groups worldwide Monica is a self, professed change, junkie, sharing wisdom and real like awareness to help others adjust to their own lifestyle changes, and to even get excited about them. It's such an honor to have him around the show Montebourg welcome to one life radio. It's great to be with you today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely and I WANNA share it out. Your website to your website is well. It is rethink life dot today. That's rethink life dot today. So you know today we're talking about your book. Fear is not an option a guide for anyone who wants to live their best life fearlessly. So, what does that mean to you to live life fearlessly? Well I. Think for all of us right? We we come into the World S, Fearful, and then over time we, we grow more and more fearful. I think are inherent nature is at odds with growth, so we tend to WanNa stay in our comfort zone. Morning that's going to kind of push. That makes us uncomfortable. But the truth of the matter is. A happy life is one of comfortable discomfort, which means that we want to get to a place where we see every challenge is an opportunity for growth in order to do that. You need to be able to remove fear because fear doesn't serve as it doesn't help us, it doesn't change. A situation doesn't alternate thing it just feeds and already chaotic situation so for me, living fearlessly as I go against my comfort zone, and also to realize that, yes, in life, not all of our dreams come true, but instead I. Think most people dwell on that right which. which well on lack, we doubt well on things that aren't working for us on negative ways of thinking, and instead what's in our complete power and control is to refocus all of that energy into the next thing that is possible because too often we allow our failures to create more fears for us, and we don't even try, and many people just end up. Living in a self made prison of their own fears. It's tolerable one because they move with it, but it's still very limiting. So I'm here to say that everybody can be fully free of fear. Absolutely and you've been through a lot. You have your book is is fabulous by the way. I love some of the stories that you shared net especially chapter five. UH, schizophrenia is not contagious I could relate one hundred percent of that having grown up. When you when I was reading the chapter, I was like Oh my gosh. It was like I dropped into the pages of your book and felt the same things that you felt growing up with a brother that were schizophrenic. comparison to you. Yeah, with your uncle and It's a very powerful experience for anyone that's been through it and and not addressed enough I. Think what what those types of experience duty you and and almost put you in a place of fear that it's very difficult to get out of as you to adulthood. Would you agree? Absolutely, I think that when things happen that scare us I mean I think the first experience we ever have with fear really dictates how we. Learn to deal with its allies right so if you can't talk about it or you don't understand it so for me. When my uncle. When I was seven, he seemingly turned schizophrenic overnight now, of course, that wasn't the case, but nobody explained anything else to me, so I really thought that it was contagious, and I used to hold my breath when I was around him, and then later in life you know, and if I was walking in the street, and there was maybe a crazy homeless person, I would hold my breath, even if I was running right along the runner and and the matter is even if somebody had a plane that things like pre. Pre genetic disposition would have gone through my head anyway, so I probably wouldn't have felt much more comfortable. However, having gone through that, and then you know with my son, my second son being born with down syndrome a few hours after he was born, he was diagnosed. and having interested like I've gone through many things and what I realized the fear we all have is the uncontrollable unknowable nature of life and. We can assign a different things, but at the end of the day. That is what really consumed all of us. But if you break it down, what do we really ever know, right? We think we know how each day will unfold. We think we know how our lives unfold. Because we have a plan, but it doesn't really go that way and the truth is. We can't control any outcome, but we can just direct our thoughts and our energy. Yeah I. It's funny I was seven years old when it happened to me. Around my brother, absolutely yeah I mean it was. It's UNCANNY. When I was, I was I was reading it i. told you it was like. Oh, my Gosh! I like just dropped right into the pages of the book the best for me to describe it I felt like it was. You were telling me you were taught. You were reading and. You know it's so important to talk about. Because most people think it's them, and they hide it, and they feel shame about it right, and then it really stopped them from pursuing the things that they're really passionate about or the life that they really want when if you just? We all have the same struggles. we do well. Can you tell us more about your dreams and fair? Yeah so I think what profoundly changed the way I dealt with fear again they briefly mentioned was when my second son was born because I was met with feelings of shock and failure and inadequacy, and crushing shame, and I remember in those moments after those days after he was born uncertainty and fear pump through me as fully as oxygen, and it was that overwhelming and thinking of all the afflictions. Why did have to be as mine because it took me right back to my first year with my uncle with schizophrenia? Because now it was also my son's mind a different way, but still affected the way that he would understand life in cope. cognitively, but I've come to understand again was that I was afraid of the unknown, and so for while I, walk through life like waiting for the other shoe to drop you know and I would yeah, how many times with one person hit by lightning just to prove my point that something bad could happen again, and I realized that that wasn't a way to go through. Life and I couldn't believe live a happy life that way and it. It wasn't even true when I was saying I remember thinking in those days after that I had a choice I their feed into the fear of what raising a child with down syndrome would be like and how it affects me and my family, or I would be attuned to the beauty of potential of who he would become, and subsequently who I would become, so it took all that power back right that the fear of the unknown and. Feeling like I had absolutely no control of my life or anything that would happen and said I took all of that energy and I, decided to direct my consciousness, and that is an experience. You're going to have in life. The only thing that makes it a positive or negative. Is you think about it right? So I changed the way I thought about it. And the other thing that I realized was that we never really know how anybody's going to turn out in life right? Who after all is typical I? Think for most parents want their children come to the world's or perfect of course right, and then later in life we start to see their flaws, or maybe their limitations, and with Josh happened to find out about limitations that he had on the day he was born, but I had a lifetime to discover his guests. yeah and I thought that was really powerful. Yes, Oh, it is in your book again, so it's so incredibly powerful it is and the stories, and the to the and how how beautifully you know you share them with other people so that we can all grow. And learn from other people's experiences like you said. We're GONNA go to break. Is that okay breakdown? We come back. We'll talk more about this all right. All right everyone say to work coming up with Monica. She is the author of Rethink Rob. Out An option dating, we'll be right back. To Life Radio. I. Record label. Traders sought. Ready. In the got nothing. In. June! Oh. Welcome back to one life radio everyone is. With although Davis in our special guests, continuing on Burp, she is the author of meeting. Love and fear is not an option Monica is a self, professed change junkie, sharing wisdom and real life awareness to help others adjust to their own lifestyle changes, and to even get excited about them. Her website is really think life dot today. That's rethink life dot today. Monica great having you on the show with us today, and so. Your books here is not an option is incredible and in your book? You talk about three types of fear, healthy, real and illogical. Can you give us an example of each? Sure so healthy is just like it sounds it's set setup for our survival and protection. It keeps US safe and it's a theory. Actually we should respect so for instance if you're hiking and you're too close to the edge of a cliff and high up, and that feeling in your stomach that makes you jump back, right? It's there to protect you, or if your hand too close to an open flame when you pull it back, it's also that feeling of intuition I. Don't know if you've ever had this, but maybe you're going into an elevator and somebody's already there and you start to feel uncomfortable like you shouldn't go in right. It's just to feel. That you have right, so all of that is healthy fear. One of my favorite examples of this is the story of Carol Durant. Are you familiar with her? Moore and I can't. I make here. So It's interesting. 'cause I wrote the book and then a year later, her story starting to get a lot of attention again. I'll explain why so anyway. She was approached by police officer She was in a parking structure at the mall and he came to her. He said your car's been broken into, and we've apprehended the suspect. He has some of your items. Can you come with the station to identify them? So she got that feeling that we just spoke about in the pit of her stomach, and she was reluctant, but she asked for. For his badge and he showed her his bad does. She agreed to go along with them? She gets in his car the driving on the freeway and she realizes that they're driving the opposite direction from the station, so she starts to get nervous. She tells him you're going the wrong way. He has one hand on the wheel with his other hand. He's trying to handcuff her and then with her free hand. She's opening the door already because she had. She had her hand already ready to go, so she jumped out of the moving car. He's on my car a site. A fight ensues on the side of the road and she's able to escape a few days later. She looks in the newspaper and she sees it on that same day a few hours later, somebody was Kidnapped and was murdered by serial killer Ted Bundy and looks at a stage, and she realizes that was the police officer. When the Ted Bundy files came out. Everybody was talking about her again because she was the one that got away. So this fear is a healthy one, and we should respect it. And I know really powerful right? The next one is real fear, and that's based in reality. It's fear of death of pain of change, even and even with this fear, though it can be used as a motivator for change and for connection meaning. If somebody is afraid that they of dying or getting sick, they can make healthier lifestyle choices right? Maybe not smoking, not drinking lot exercising eating well. There's proactive things that we can do to control this kind of the're also I hear a lot of people talking about fear of their parents dying, and they ruminate about that thought over and over again. So much so that even when they spend time together, they're not really enjoying it because they're just thinking about this negative thoughts, so what I say to those people use this time to really make sure you tell them how much you love them. Make for the time that you're together is positive, and you're enjoying it right so with this kind of theory can be a great reminder for us to make good choices that will appreciate later in life now. The last one is illogical, and this is the one that we spend most of our. Our time busy with believe it or not. It's fear of spiders, snakes, elevators, public, speaking failure and it's what keeps US worried, frantic and insecure consistently right? It's the thing that's Donald Living Dreams. This is the fear that I talk about most is the one that we can completely eradicate. We do not need to speed. The spirit unites to give it any energy whatsoever, and when you choose something else right, and that's why name the book years on an option, because the fear is no longer an option. You need to find another option. Wow I love what you're saying. I had I actually had a conversation with my niece last night about because I'm afraid of snakes, too, and so she wanted slivered by her on her property. COPPERHEAD and I was like. Yeah, but you can't let those fears like each you up I know it's difficult. You know anyway, so it was kind of saying some of the things that you were saying. Saying but I of course I'm not as eloquent or is knowledgeable and about about this particular topic. Is You and I love it? We're talking about this. This conversation needs to happen for so many things that we deal with in our life and we've only got about. I'M GONNA say forty five seconds last before I hear the music. So how do we begin to identified our own fierce on? So what I exercise I give people write down three of your major fears. The ones that bother you that keep you up at night right, but keep you paralyzed and then go next to each fear and write down if you think it's real healthy illogical, most of the people don't get it right the first time, but really try to be honest with yourself, and then you'll have an easier way of coping it when fear comes up. Thought right if not your carry it along with you and gain more and more thoughts. That's the first thing and the second is when rises. Ask Your Gum what you would do if you weren't afraid and then do that now. I loved really truly enjoyed having you on the show today. I hope you'll come back everyone. You've gotTA. This book I'm not kidding you sending one of my needs to do this. I get off the ship. As ing anytime than happy to come back being he'll ask I love it. Beer is not an option. You guys Monica or check it out. I'm not what might now on Amazon. Thank you again so much Monica everyone out there. You're welcome and thank you so much for listening everyone. Remember you get once you get one mind at you. Get Wildlife. Get Out! There is not an option.
How Hollywood Treats True Crime: Netflix Takes On Ted Bundy
"This message comes from on points sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed, you can post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions, then zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard. Get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. From NPR and WB. You are Boston. I'm Kimberly Atkins and this is on point. Ted Bundy is one of the country's most notorious serial killers his savage acts of murder, targeting young women across the country during the nineteen seventies, the live the outward appearance of a clean cut charismatic and intelligent, young man. Bundy is depicted in a new feature film on net flicks starring Zach, Ephron, extremely wicked shockingly, evil and vile. It's told through the eyes of his then girlfriend, Liz, who he charmed, even as he went on trial for murder such a good idea. I can't I'm sorry. I have to pull an all nighter tonight at the law library. Yeah. I gotta make sure the most prepared attorney in the courtroom trial starts this hour on point thirty years after bundy's execution. True crime culture. Then, and now join us do you remember Ted Bundy, the trial the fear his persona? Join us anytime on point radio dot org, or on Twitter and Facebook at on point radio. Joining me from New York is Joe Berlinger. He's an Academy Award nominated an EMMY winning filmmaker in the last six months, he directed to Netflix movies about Ted Bundy conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes is a four part documentary that premiered in January last month, his feature film extremely wicked. Shockingly, evil and vile was released on the streaming service as well. And in select dealers across the country. Joe welcome to on point. Thank you, Kimberly. How are you doing? I'm doing great. If I can manage to talk correctly, we're going to push through. The title of the movie a bit of a ton twin one get no one gets. Thank you for that. So I wanna start off by asking why focus on Ted Bundy now forty years after he was convicted of these heinous crimes thirty years after he was executed. What is it about this case that keeps the public's fascination it will, I think Bundy defies all expectations of what we think serial killer should be. And therefore the lessons of Bundy can't be overstated, especially for a younger audience. You know, he was charming good looking charismatic. He alluded capture for so long because friends and acquaintances couldn't believe that he would be capable of these horrible crimes. He kind of, you know, pulled the wool over the American judicial system, which allowed him to kind of run roughshod over his legal proceedings. The American media kind of embraced him as, as almost as perverse folk hero in he manipulated and used the media. And I, I just think for a younger generation who does not really know the specifics of Bundy, the, the enduring lesson you know, just because somebody looks in access certain way they should not be trusted. I think is a very important message. In fact, before I embarked on these projects, I called my college age daughters up to, you know, who are in as most people know, bundy's prototypical, victim are college age young women, and so my daughters are in that in that group and I spoke to each of my daughters. Both very bright, young, women have very fine schools, which by the way, I did not help them get into those schools. They did it on their own and each each of them, really had no idea who Bundy was, and I had them ask their friends and, you know, some of their friends, vaguely knew will. Isn't he a serial killer, but, but really the story of Bundy, which is so unbelievable is unfamiliar to that to that demographic, and, you know, I I've done a lot of true crime over the years, and for me to take a story on, I feel there needs to be some social commentary, some element of social Justice, and so really, I wanna put out into this world, a reminder to that generation that just because somebody, you know, looks and access certain way they don't they don't deserve our trust now, and I want to drill down a little bit more on this point, the social commentary that you wanna make you mentioned that a lot of folks of the each of your daughters. A lot of people who are college age don't know who Ted Bundy is. I think there are a lot of folks who think that's probably a good thing that somebody who committed all of these crimes should not be a should not be glorified in this way. Was that a concern as you made these two films that's been a great deal of time focusing on the perpetrator of these crimes in less on the actual victims of the crimes that it will look like a glorification. Of course, you know, there have been criticisms that we are glorifying, but I think that's kind of a superficial look what we're doing. You know, glorification would be if we didn't delve deeply into his crimes and. Not putting a message out there about what these people are capable of Dilling. You know, is we don't want to stick our heads in the sand we live in an era of internet cat fishing, where people pretend to be one thing and are often not what they purport to be. We live in an era where you better check the license plate of your Uber to make sure you're not getting into a predators car, who's pretending to be an Uber driver. You know. So, you know, I, I'm I dispute the idea that we're glorifying a horrible serial killer because we're telling their story, you know, it's, it's an era where, you know, look, I've, I've covered crime for twenty five years, and the people who you least expect and most often trust are the people who do evil in this. World. And I think that's you know, we don't wanna stick our heads in the sand and not have a younger generation understand that whether it's a priest who commits pedophilia and then holds mass the next day or you know Michael Jackson and what he did that was covered extensively in the leaving Neverland documentary. It's generally the people you least expect in most often trust who do terrible things and Bundy a pit him is that he alluded capture because his friends missed the clues. He eluded capture even his longtime girlfriend, you know, which is the whole whole perspective of, of extremely wicked. You know, didn't didn't see the clues the, you know, the law enforcement even because he was a good looking white guy in our patriarchal. Seventies, he was allowed to do things that most, you know, if this was a person of color, Bundy would have been in orange, jumpsuit and chains during the entire proceedings instead. Said he was allowed to roam free to use the law library which allowed him to escape twice, you know. So I don't believe by telling somebody story, you're glorifying them, and it's been interesting to watch the reaction. Because when the trailer for the movie for extremely wicked came out and I will say the first trailer that was released. I was not a fan of the marketing people who wanted to sell the movie at Sundance that a certain kind of trailer and that trailer seem to suggest there was violence in the movie, a lot of violence. And so the movie was criticized for by some because some people have loved the film, but the movie was criticized before release that. Oh, look at the trailer. There's violence and therefore, you know, you're glorifying Bundy because of because of all the violence when the movie came out. There's actually very little re-creations of violence. We certainly talk. About violence in the movie, but the film was then criticized. Oh, there's no violence in the movie. You're glorifying Bundy. So I think there's a certain group of people for this subject matter that it will provoke that kind of reaction do you know, the documentary series was very detailed dissection of all of the terrible crimes of Bundy and, you know, it was not focused on the victims per se. And so people said, well, where's the victim? Well, extremely wicked is all about the victims POV and, and that's being criticized as being somehow because there's no violence, and it's through the victims POV. It's being criticized as, as making light of Bundy documentary series later when I start by talking about extremely wicked. You have been on making films about chew crime for a while. But you haven't always taken the feature route, and certainly Zach Ephron is not known for. Portraying a serial killer in extremely wicked. Ted Bundy at one point was depicted being unwavering in professing his innocence. Oh, well, slandering law enforcement and the judiciary judicial system. Here is fron playing Bundy entering a question from a local, Colorado jailhouse reporter. I am. Statement that I am innocent. Do you think the police have done a bad job, because you're an innocent guy here sitting in prison, as long as the beliefs, keep their heads in the sand about me that people are going to continue showing up dead or missing from the canyons in Colorado, to Salt Lake valley, and young women are going to continue to be threatened by that person or persons. Now, if the voice of that jailhouse reporter sounds familiar, that's because it is Joe's. And that. What better role for documentarian to play the journalist who interviews Bundy Fragneau, if there was ever a role made for me? Right. Right. But just you know, before in the few seconds before we have to take a little break pudding. Zach Ephron in this role in itself was in as you move, right? I mean, he sees a beloved good-looking endearing kind of guy, what was behind selecting him to Syria, a serial killer. I mean Zach was my first choice in. And thank God, he said, yes, because I think he brilliantly executes the role and again, it goes to the whole point of what the purpose of extremely wicked is, which is to it is not a movie about how a serial killer kills. We've seen that many times, what's scarier to me is how the serial killer operates in the other part of his life when he's not killing when he's deceiving, when he's betraying when he's being charming and for and as I mentioned, I in particular I'm targeting a younger generation that doesn't really. No Bundy, and who better to encapsulate that then one of the most beloved figures for a certain young demographic for a certain demographic, for the people who I want to watch this movie Zach is somebody who can do no wrong because of, you know, he has a certain persona and who better than to illustrate this idea that just because somebody looks and acts certain way they are not worthy of your trust. We are discussing true crimes, then, and now with, with the producer of two new films on serial killer Ted Bundy, you can join the conversation, have you seen either of the recent Ted Bundy films on net flicks? What did you think about them? I'm Kimberly Atkins. This is on point. This message comes from on points sponsor indeed when it comes to hiring, you don't have time to waste you need. Help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions, then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs, new users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. Terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. A language was about to die. Once it gets wiped out. That's it. We will have nothing in our language, to pass store, children and the people trying to save it, we're still learning how to speak it Amir to hurry up time was working against, as we were like hundred years late. You know it's code switch. Yola lo fi. Listen and subscribe, this is on point. I'm Kimberly Atkins, we're talking with filmmaker Joe Berlinger about his to net flicks. Films about serial killer Ted Bundy, thirty years after he was put to death in the electric chair. You can join the conversation should Ted Bundy or other killers. Get the Hollywood treatment follow us on Twitter and find us on Facebook at on point radio. A Joe Berlinger is the director of the net flix film called extremely wicked. Shockingly evil in vile as well as the four part documentary series conversations with a killer of the Ted Bundy tapes. I wanna talk a little bit more about the feature film extremely wicked. And, and listen to Zach Ephron who portrays Ted Bundy in the film, as he describes the challenge to understand bundy's personality, and the often endearing effect, he had on others. Ted had this, this thing about him this magic, Ted Bundy facade his charm. Where he worked with people, a lot of people in prison with him, loved him cops that knew him seem to think he was an okay guy. It wasn't until after he was fully accused that a lot of fully admitted to everything that a lot, most of the world really believed that Ted was even capable of things like this. So he pulled the wool over a lot of people's is in jail in watching these films. I watched the feature I before the documentary series. And it was like a reminder like a harsh reminder watching the documentary being reminded of exactly all the terrible things that Ted Bundy did after watching this film. That was told through the eyes of his then girlfriend, Liz, you can see from her perspective, the, the conflicts that she had. But at the same time almost they almost seem like films to me, anyway, about two different p. People was that sort of the intent behind these films. Or what do you think about that potential effect? Well, I think it's the same person and they have two very different sides. And that's what's scary. And, you know, we want to think that a serial killer is some two dimensional monster that lives in the far corners of the human condition, and that there's some kind of weird, looking or social outcast or some kind of person who has no ability to fit in with society. That's the stereotype, and that's what we want to think a serial killer is because that gives us in some strange way, some comfort that they are easily identifiable and therefore we can avoid them, but the reality is again. I've, I've covered a lot of real crime over the years, and the but the reality with many of these people who do evil and particularly with Bundy is they fit into society very well they fool people for a long time. And so. Extremely wicked is a portrait of betrayal, and, and a personification of what it's like to be deceived, by that kind of person we certainly don't avoid the violent acts that he committed in the movie, we just don't recreate them. But, you know, within the first few minutes of the film, there's archival footage of, of the first murder investigations intercut with, you know, happy family home movies throughout the move, half actually a little more than half of the movies, actually, the Florida trials and in the Florida trials we hear what people who aren't privy to the actual act of murder would be hearing. And so we certainly don't avoid the terrible things he did. But we don't show. You know Zach actually committing those murders. And I think there's two points here that are very relevant. One is, you know, some people feel that by not showing those murders were being disrespectful to the victims. I think just the opposite. I'm hugh. I spent a lot of time in my documentary life as as an advocate for victims rights as somebody shining, a light on criminal Justice reform. And I think the worst thing, the most disrespectful thing you could do to a victim is to recreate the worst moment of their existence, which is when they're being, you know, raped and murdered and killed. So there's plenty of discussion of violence in the movie and by the end of the movie. And it's also you know, we live in a society, where images of violence are just a few key strokes away where even an eight year old can come upon the most violent and degrading images of, of violence of pornography violent pornography on if I was a parent of a young. Teenager, particularly boy today, I would be horrified and scared as to what's available within a few key strokes. Right. So I think this the amount of violent imagery in our society has desensitized to the power of those images. And if the movie was loaded with violent imagery, by the time we get to the final reveal at the end of the movie when Liz played brilliantly by lily Collins confronts him on death row and makes him admit to the crimes, and we cease for the first time Bundy actually committing those crimes, I think that moment, would have no dramatic power, because we would have been numbed by dozens of images of, of death and destruction up up until the point. So statically I wanted to hold off until the end of the movie. But I also think it's disrespectful to victims to show them being killed. I want to get to the phone lines. We have folks who wanna talk to you, Steve is calling. From Columbia, Missouri. Hi Steve for low. Thank you. First of all, I've seen both the documentary and the movie, and I do not understand criticism. I think it was the casting was excellent. And it was very well done if you've seen both of them, you can compare the tapes of Ted Bundy, with the acting and you can see that he was manipulative he was charismatic. And as far as the difference between. Thirty five forty years ago when he was committing murders. And now I don't I'm old enough to remember all of that, when that was happening and the country was focused on him just as they're still. I don't wanna use the word fascination. It's not fascination. It's a certain bewilderment that he doesn't fit into stereotype and. As was just minute. Just mentioned just a few minutes ago. Steve. Thanks for that. I wonder if he was a split personality at times, who didn't really believe that he had committed murders. I can't explain it but it's just. Let's pause and get Joe's thoughts on that. What do you think to, you know, there's no definitive answer? But I believe that people who compartmentalized, and look, we all compartmentalized to a certain degree. You know, we all go about our lives and, you know, forget that there's climate change going on. And forget that there's, you know, a billion people starving and living in poverty, and we all go about our lives. So compartmentalization is part of the human condition, and I believe Bundy was a master of compartmentalization, he really did like Liz or care for Liz in my opinion, and really had any need for a normal relationship in his life. And I believe he was able to compartmentalize his evil whether or not that compartment compartmentalization actually went to the point where he had, you know, we're where there were periods when he was being normal that he had no memory of what he actually did as a. When he was being an evil monster. It's hard to say but I think he was a master at compartmentalization pats on the line calling from counters point, a Pennsylvania. Hi, pat. Hi. I have a Ted Bundy story. That's never been told and I had a girlfriend who was going to college in Colorado in the mid seventies. And she and her of her female college friends walked out some trail and some state park quite a distance and they decided to nude sunbathe on the rocks and they were smoking marijuana and my friend happened to look over, there was a creek like valley creek and a hillside on the other side. And there was a man watching them at first, she wasn't sure he was watching, then she was pretty sure he was. And when you're sunbathing you turn this way, and that so the son gets you from all different angles and every time she turned over he was still sitting there and about the time that they decided to get dressed and go back to their car. He wasn't there anymore. So she told her friend to just get dressed. And let's go to the car, real quick, and they were walking quickly. And she got to the point where she could see him coming towards the creek, then she could see him crossing the creek holding a bag or a backpack up above the water and as he got closer. She said there were friend run and they ran to their car. They got in the car shut the doors locked the doors. He arrived at the car, just as they got the doors locked they took off. He had a Volkswagen bus, and he followed them, but they were able to lose them because he couldn't maneuver on the back roads like they could it was. I don't mean to interrupt you. How, how were they certain at this was Ted Bundy, while I'm getting to that? So they lost them years later, she's in bed with her husband, he's reading a book, and she said, what are you reading, and he said, oh, it's a book about Ted Bundy, and she said, well, let me see it, and she looks through the book and there's a picture of him, and she recognized him as the man that chased them in Colorado. So she just barely. Was not a victim of him. I'm absolutely certain of it. And we've been friends since childhood. I never heard this story until this past January. She thought she had told me the story before she was so upset when she saw his picture in the book that I think he was being held in Florida on death row at the time. And she wanted to go down and talk to him about, you know, this instance, and her husband talked out of it. Well, well Joe what's your reaction to that amazing? It's it's been interesting. There have been. I've been reached out to by so many people who have had Ted Bundy encounter. You know, it's astounding that he's had so much interaction with people. I want to talk a move to the documentary. The four part documentary conversations with a killer. Ted Bundy tapes, which include a lot of never before heard in interviews with Ted Bundy, you can hear him in his own voice, and you can also really get a sense of the media circus, that surrounded this case. I mean there had been serial killers before folks like Richard speck, and Charles Manson. But around this case, the fascination and the media coverage really made this the first true crime story in a sense that was playing out on the television screens of Americans. But at the same time, if you look at the way mash, killings mass shootings and mass killings are covered today. There's a reluctance among law enforced. Moment and members of the media to even speak the name of the killer nears a lot more focus on profiling victims tuck, a little bit about just how coverage of horrific crimes like this has changed over the years. And, and the reasons for that you're one of the reasons for my fascination with, with the Bundy cases to me Bundy is the big bang of our current obsession with true crime. You know, there was a there was changing television technology going on at the time. I mean, just a few months before the Bundy trial, many, new stations were still shooting news coverage on film, which meant there was no such thing as live coverage. But right around the Bundy trial, they were switching over to what we currently know who has electron IQ news gathering and satellite technology, which was brand new, and the growing interest in Bundy combined with this new technological achievement of being able to actually cover things, live with satellite, and, you know, use the satellite transmission to, you know. Broadcast live as I say, you know, pushed its way into the Florida courtroom in the Florida Supreme Court in a controversial decision. Granted cameras in the courtroom. So the Bundy trial became the first nationally televised trial, and for the first time ever Americans, you know, millions of Americans could sit in their living rooms and watch, you know, serial rape, and serial murder as live entertainment. And I think that, that was the precipitating event that has led to this obsession in documentary and televise kind of true crime and you can draw a line from there to the Bundy execution. A decade later was the first time the new technology of mobile satellite trucks, enabled all these trucks to camp outside the death house and cover his execution. And then just a few years later in ninety five with the with the OJ Simpson trial, that was now, you know, you had the twenty four hour news cycle kicking in proliferation of cable stations and the coverage of that. Trial became you know, the next big bang of, of our current obsession. Look, I believe, and I think it's important not to give the killer, you know, not to speak, his name, not to give them the attention. They deserve in these mass shootings. I think that's a very wise policy. I do think people confuse, you know, people have said, oh, well, we're giving Bundy everything he craved. He wanted the attention. And look at these documentaries, he's getting the attention. I think that's kind of a superficial view of things Bundy, didn't want the attention or crave the attention. He for years went undetected and wanted to kill with impunity without detection. But when he noticed that he was becoming a media star he used and exploited that to try to convince people he was innocent. It's not that he was doing these crimes for attention. He was doing it just for the opposite reason. But so I think I think you see, it's a it's, it's an apples. And oranges comparison. But with today's mass shootings, I think it's an extremely wise policy to not, you know, not to give any credence to who the killer is a lot of the chew crime. You're talking about the, the advent of the true crime phenomenon in how it is still very popular. We've seen various podcast and television series devoted to that. But in a lot of those in a lot of those films and podcasts it, there's a question about whether or not the person in question actually did it or there's a question about the police conduct in this case, Ted bundy's story is very different. We're pretty we're, we're more than certain that. He did do this, where more than certain that acting as his own attorney. He he tried to throw the Justice system asunder. So how is it different in approaching this kind of story, then in one where guilt, or innocence, for example, may not be clear, you, we'll look the whole? Guilt or innocence storytelling approach is something that obviously I'm very familiar with the paradise lost series. You know, I made a series of films about the west, Memphis three, the films are widely credited, along with the extreme activism of a lot of dedicated people, but the films were the catalyst for the that activism, and in the films have been credited with helping shine a light on these wrongful convictions. And that kind of storytelling is very important, but I think all advocacy filmmaking in this speier isn't just about wrongful convictions. It's about bringing certain social injustices, or social commentary to light and again, for me, the whole reason to do Bundy when my daughters told me they had no idea, who Bundy was. And I think about the era that we live in again with the internet, catfish ING with people posting idealized versions of, who they are on social media, and that reality may not always be the same that poor. A young woman who got into the wrong Uber. It wasn't an Uber was a fake Uber. And, and she was killed. You know we live we live in, in in, I think perilous times, where Ted Bundy could operate. And so my goal again, was to put put out into the world for a younger generation that just because somebody looks in access certain way, they don't deserve your trust where discussing the nation's fascination with chew crime and how those attitudes are changing three decades after Ted Bundy was executed. You can join the conversation, do you like true crime depictions, and why I'm Kimberly Atkins this is on point. Hey, it's been an Ameri, and we're the hosts of endless threat the show featuring stories found on the website, read it but you don't have to be a or to enjoy the kinds of stories. We tell like a couple experimenting with non monogamy or board game that may have predicted the attacks on Pearl Harbor. Subscribe to endless threat on apple podcasts or wherever you listen. I'm Gregory Warner and this week on rough translation. We follow a rescue mission in real time after an Iraqi photojournalist goes missing on the front lines. We don't believe I don't believe it leaves his family and his friends to try to save him. When he said, who is this? Who are you? They respond. We are the Slavic state this week on rough translation. This is on point. I'm Kimberly Atkins, we're talking with filmmaker Joe Berlinger about his to net flicks films about notorious serial killer Ted Bundy, you can join the conversation. How should we talk about the worst among us follow us on Twitter and find us on Facebook at on point radio? Now Joan I wanna play a clip from the documentary series conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes, Carol Durant was eighteen year old in November of nineteen seventy four. When Ted Punti poses a police officer outside of a mole in Utah, and convinced her to get in his car. A few minutes later Bundy tried to kill her the next thing I knew pulled out a gun said a blow your head off. I just thought go ahead. This go ahead. Do it just kill me now but I found the door jumped out the car. He came out after me. And we struggled outside. He had a crowbar that he was trying to hit me over the head. I had my hand on topic and fill it. I just thought with all my rash him and fight with being overall broken. I remember his beady blink lifeless eyes. And again, the casino from conversations with a killer, the Ted Bundy tapes, Joe, we have stories like this. We think about we maybe don't even know all of the women who had an encounter with Ted Bundy and survived and are living with this memory, just like the friend of the caller. We heard from earlier talk a little bit about that. You know, there, there have been have been some survivors, who we've interviewed who are in the show, and it is frightening the amount of people that he's encountered he's. Admitted to thirty the FBI puts the number at thirty five but I think experts believed the numbers much higher. So not only, you know, unfortunately, not only do I think there are other people out there who have had these encounters, but more importantly, I think unfortunately, there are victims out there who have not been accounted for who, who were actually killed by Bundy, Amy is on the line calling from woodberry for Mont. Hi, amy. Hi, thank you for taking my call. I wanted to say I, I appreciate what you did with paradise lost. And I think that Damien Echols is alive today, largely if not completely because of your exposure to their case, which is really profound. So thank you for that. I wanted to say that I I've really studied a lot. I think a lot of Americans have this facination with real killers. And after reading the only living witness by Ainsworth, you really get to see how truly depraved he was. I've loved both the documentary movie that you made. But I think that we're criticism, the least I have is four women or daughter's age. Komo's women and women younger, who may not know how truly horrible he was, for example, kidnapping and murdering beneath Maslin, and Janice in one day in broad daylight on a holiday. Out of very publicly is something that is just it's insane that he was able to do that. And what he did to these women is truly so horrible. And I think that his depravity is lost in the film. Thank you for taking my call. Thank you for the whole show. What would you think about that? Well, you know, look, everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course. And, and if the move in, and of course, I shouldn't expect people to watch both each each film project should exist on its own. I shouldn't expect people to watch the documentary to fill in the blanks of what was left out of the movie. But, again, the movie is there to portray the three dimensionality of these psychopaths, not because we want to humanize them. But because we want to show that they are actually three dimensional human beings who spend a good deal of their life, not killing but deceiving. And that mecca. Of deception and so to load the movie up with, you know, re-creations of killings, which, again, I think is disrespectful to the victim. It, it undercuts, it would undercut the power that the movie has at the end of the film. Look, every film doesn't work for everybody, but for whom the film work's when Bundy finally admits to his longtime lover that. Yes, I did do all these terrible things, and we see glimpses of it in that final moment in that final flashback. It's an emotionally, gut wrenching experience for Liz herself. And that's the experience, I want to give the audience, I want the audience to actually as the movies unfolding to have that sense of inner conflict. You know, I, I actually want people to suspend the intellectual knowledge that they're watching a movie about a serial killer, and invest in that relationship and to understand how because we don't want to think that Liz is just missed the clues and somehow that she's deficient in some way, you know, she she, she missed the clue. Because Bundy was a master manipulator, and we want, I want the audience to experience that manipulation themselves. You're the. You're the guarantees updating my next question, because I wanted, you we were talking about this three dimensionality the, the approach of following this through the eyes of Liz, I'm thinking of a scene, where a right after they first met, and she wakes up and realizes that he is not there and she doesn't see her daughter right away. And she gets up in a panic to see what happened. This man is gone her daughter's gone, and she finds them in the kitchen her in her high chair him in an apron, cooking breakfast. And I just thought that was a scene that sort of captured what you were trying to get across some even when she had her Spidey senses as a mother, he managed to, to completely disarm, her, right? And, and part of that is to is to let the audience know that this is not going to be that kind of movie to play with audience expectations to allow the audience to engage in that relationship. So that when the betrayal happens at the end of the movie. That the audience themselves feel that same level of disgust. You know, again, this is mainly targeted to a younger audience. That doesn't have the details of his crimes and reveres both zaken lily. They both have huge fan bases. And I literally, you know, to me, the best reaction to the movies for somebody at the end of the film to say, oh, my God when he was jumping out the window and escaping prison. I was actually rooting for him to, to, you know, to get back to Liz, and so that the love can relationship can continue and. Oh my God. I can't believe I actually fell for it, and I'm so disgusted that I fell for it because I feel along with Liz, that this character has manipulated and betrayed me because that's the nature of evil again. Evil is done by the people often done by the people closest to you, and who you least expect and so that is what I'm trying to portray in the movie, the nature of deception and betrayal. Frank is on the line from. Baltimore, maryland. Hi, frank. Thanks for taking my call. I was a journalist working for broadcast group, serving ten TV stations across the country and covered the execution of Ted Bundy, and, like always saying this was big bang for satellite news coverage. The press was on a field across the street from the depth house prison. Spokesman would come out periodically and give us briefings. I have brought tape one of our stations was in Denver and other employed, where Bundy had committed crimes, and, and the essence of the back story that I was telling leading up to the execution was of his deception. It was kind of a warning, you know to, to all to, you know, this is what can happen while the morning of the execution. I was on the ground in Florida for twenty nine hours. I did twenty seven live shots and the morning of the execution was a carnival atmosphere. There are hundreds of spectators, many of them were college students guys and young women. Full. Hair makeup and dress like the reclogging to come out who is almost like a pep rally, volunteer. I mean, the local fire department auxiliary was here, selling coffee and donuts. And there was a plant that truck there that oppose the death penalty, you know, just on principle when the execution announcement came, there was a loud cheer, and which really upset me. I thought you know, people were missing the point. But when I did my life shots. It was very interesting to note that the different reaction from the different markets. Oklahoma City, Princeton. So when I was done talking all I heard from the anchors was, thanks spring. But when I went to Washington DC, and Atlanta and Phoenix. There were three four five anchor follow up, questions, just kind of couldn't get enough wanted more detail and everything, and it really showed you, you know, the scope, the spectrum of, of reaction. Across america. So I just wanted to share that. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Frank, one of the things that Frank brought up Joe is the fact that in the spectacle surrounding this story, a lot of times women dressed up coming to this wanting to be a part of it in your film in your documentary. Some women are questioned who even those who believe he was a killer, who believe he committed these crimes still talked about how they were drawn to him fascinated by him. And I wondered is there a sense that some, some of those things stay the same? I'm recalling the, the documentary about our Kelly, for example, where he actually picked up girls while he was on trial, and despite horrible horrible charges being made against people if they're seen as good looking and charming enough. Women are still trying to them. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah. I mean you know it's hard to put everything in one in one category. I certainly don't want to right off. You know, bundy's a lure as just women wanting to, you know, be involved with dangerous person. I think that's an over simplification and the thing to me, that's the most remarkable is that people were coming to the Florida trial, not necessarily because they were so titillated by Bundy and thought he was guilty. But he had this power. He was using the, the media to make people feel like he was he was innocent. And, you know, to me, one of the extrordinary things about this case, and, which we are definitely making a comment on is that he was given a free pass to allow that perception to be built he was allowed to represent himself at trial. He was given even though he was. You know, he didn't have a law degree was a law student, and all of a sudden he's representing himself at trial, and you know, turn. And that legal, you know, again all due respect to all the officials who you know, the prosecutor Larry Simpson. Everyone did a great job. But the fact that Bundy was allowed to represent himself at trial to me is very, very disturbing. Because if that was a person of color, who had been accused of these crimes he would be in an orange jumpsuit wrapped in chains the entire time. And the judge is almost apologetic at the end of the movie, one of the reasons we call it extremely wicked. Shockingly, evil vile is these are the words that the judge articulates to him as to why he's giving him the death sentence because his acts were extremely wicked. Shockingly evil and vile, but he also takes as we see both in the movie and the dock and in the movie, the judge is judge coward is played by John Malkovich. We hear the judge quite a almost apologizing for sentencing, the guy that the guy to death saying, you know, hey, you would have been a good lawyer. I wish you wish you could have, you know. Practice in front of me. But you went different way partner. And you know, you know, I have no animosity towards you could you imagine if that was a person of color, a judge would be, you know, anything other than, you know almost apologetic. And when I try to get one more caller in a couple of minutes, we have left be is on the line from Clearwater, Florida hobby. Hi. So I wanted to talk about how you it was previously mentioned that the film docu series was made because your daughter's didn't know who had Bundy was I had a similar experience. You know, Ted Bundy was put to death in January of nineteen eighty nine I was born in may of nine hundred eighty nine so it wasn't super familiar. But, you know, I live my life as being a decent person. I'd try to be a force for good. And I realized when I was watching the docu series I had a guttural reaction of like I would have been victim. I would have one hundred percent victim. If someone anyone comes up to me, and ask, hey, can I get some help, especially somebody with their arm in a sling Yang? I'm going to go help them and watching the docu series really has made me rethink about how I hold myself in life, and who I'm willing to help in wear willing to help. And I feel like that is so so important. And I really wish that more people would. Have that same reaction because there's a lot of out your who want to be forced for good and help where we can. And sometimes it's just straight up not safe to do. So. Thank you for that. Call be Joe. What do you think? We'll look I really appreciate the honesty of that answer. And of course, that's the type of response. I was hoping to get from people again for my daughter's generation, and it's a hard message. You know, look when I was a twenty something year old backpacking through Europe. Some of my greatest experiences were just encountering strangers and having those wonderful magic moments that you have just when you're, you're young and living your life and, you know, you want to trust people. And so, you know what I'm saying is like you can't not have those experiences. Of course, I don't want people so shutdown that they don't trust anybody. But deepen your gut there's a there's a there's a radar that people really need to listen to and, and they should take extra precaution. You know, I don't. Wanna tell my daughters, don't trust anybody don't go out and have any kind of experiences in life. But just like this caller, you know, you have to be careful and understand who you're trusting, and sometimes it's hard to understand or it's impossible to know who you're trusting and so you air on the side of caution. I mean, that's really that's, that's the main reason to retail his story. And that was my goal. So, you know, I, I do appreciate what, what she had to say. And you mentioned that both of these films may not be for the same audiences, people may not watch both in just the piece seconds. We have left, who is the audience for each of them. Well, I think it's a good question. I mean, I think anyone who's interested in learning about these stories. I mean, I think both projects are two hat to different halves of the same coin. One is a deep dive into the mind of a killer and a very comprehensive dissection of, of who he was what he did. And why, and that's for those who want that kind of experience and the movie extremely wicked shockingly evil in vile is much more of a psychological portrait of, of deception and betrayal. And I think those lessons can be applied beyond serial killing. There is a lot of people who do evil in the world who pretend to be one thing, and really are, are, are quite another doesn't have to just be serial killing. So I think that's a in fact, targeted to a wider audience chill Berlinger, who's two movies extremely wicked. Shockingly evil and vile and conversations with a killer. The Ted Bundy tapes are on net flicks now. Thank you for joining us. Thanks kimberly. An IM Kimberly Atkins, you can join the conversation on, on point on our on Twitter or on Facebook at on radio. I'm can really Atkins. This is on point.
Full Episode: Friday, January, 31 2020
"I'm David Muir and I'm amy robot. This is twenty twenty. I still have a sense of disbelief. That this man that I love. Go Out Lisa Turmeric cripple. Mr Ted Bundy she'd been involved oversize l.. We came up with sturdy. Could have been well over a hundred but we'll never know now. Decades later at the mother and daughter who shared his life to tell about it are speaking speaking on. TV with the new book and a new Amazon Prime series for the very first time I knew him so well and she loved him so much everything everything had been so good so this was just crazy person. You'd everything would be a serial killer the ladies love anybody pretty confident that we were not going to kill. I just gave me chills to to hear you say that you were pretty confident that you wouldn't pretty continent you know. He referred to. The women is again as cargo. Pretty hard to explain. Why drive around with an ice? Pick any NGOs mass. How could he possibly explain that away? To almost taunting quality catch-me-if-you-can complete remorseless is evil. So thank you for sitting sitting down with us. I know that over the years. There have been a lot of Ted Bundy stories. This is a your story. You saved all all of those photos of your time Ted as a family. Why did you save them? It's a strange phenomenon. That's like symptoms. I can't believe this has really been my life and I kept those photos with us when we were happier before we knew what he was capable of. The photos are joyful much like most people's families photos they don't look any different. That's my child and unfortunately the memories that are attached to those pitchers have lost their original emotional content and become something. Jay Different still have a sense of disbelief. That this man that I loved seem to be such a great guy to go do do such horrific foods since two so hard to accept less. I'm sure you've asked herself why not completely and and I hate to even say this because it makes him sound normal but I do think you loved us. Heard a story told by one of his attorneys. They said Ted told him that he would play games with Lice. Then he would let some of them live and make some of them die and due to me about us were just these mice dollar allowed to live There isn't anybody who grew up here. That is certain age. That doesn't have Ted Bundy Story. His presence here is huge. It's such an amazing story that touches on and so many things. It is part of the history of the Pacific northwest. It's part of the history of criminal justice in the United States. It's a story worth telling. Who was this young man and the Pacific northwest? He knew how to flatter people he knew how to win their trust. The it was good. Good looking and charming and seemingly had the world in his grasp and was going to be a successful guy. There were two Bundy's the only people that ever saw the diabolical Monday for his victims. I think people were born evil but my opinion about that change when I met. Ted I think US Seattle was a smaller more venison place but it was a time when many women were filing very independent. So people didn't think right away that a woman who hadn't been seen for a few days might have fallen in harm's way when you look at Ted. Bundy was about the right age to be in college. He drove a Volkswagen Beetle. Very very popular car in the seventies and so when he moved into a college campus he just fit right in but he graduated in June of a seventy two from the University of Washington with a degree in psychology. Why does he get a degree in psychology from my view? Does that because Kei wants to be able to continue. Can you to manipulate people. One of his activities was to be involved in political campaigns governor. Dan Evans brought down to the aisle and given a tumultuous. Welcome it worked for the committee to re elect. Dan Evans aspirations. He wanted to go to law school. I mean he was thought to be sort of a rising star in the Republican Party in Washington State. I think a number of things conspired to make Ted Bundy Ted Bundy. It looks at childhood of serial killers there are some common themes that I see them. Intense case where there's dysfunction in the family and what happens is they grow up with with a lot of rage typically towards women. He wanted to be from a family that had money and he wasn't. This is a guy who from the earliest age was a petty thief. Telling me I realized he was stealing banks. These still Paris gabled from the Student Union Building on University of Washington campus. And he brought him over to my apartment and he said if I had stolen somebody else motive so he just took him talks about having been peeping Tom at some point. And the idea that Ted Bundy was involved in peacekeeping actually make sense because it's basically a training gene ground about how you isolate people how you watch people how you get into houses. He was a night person he would get restless get in his car and drive for great distances so he was a role model always but a part of the belonged to be with somebody or a part of something something part of a family. This long time girlfriend. Who had a child WanNa go back to when you first arrived in Seattle? He for a single mom. You went out to that bar and you saw a handsome man. Tell me about when you first met. Ted Bundy was pretty smitten. Right from the get-go sime sitting in the table. I went over and talked to him because I told him he looked lonely. And I took him home with me that night. It wasn't in the habit of doing out of character for you yes. She was a young reasonably single mother from Utah Who met the man who was considered by virtually everybody in society and culture in the nineteen seventies as the dream date the perfect husband material? A prince charming. Is it fair to say at least at first the Ted Bundy was a gentleman. Oh completely put a lot of energy into making. He can happy doing fun things. My parents loved him. He was really in my opinion and I really wanted to marry him. Give me the activities. You all would do as a family together. So he had a favourite everything a favorite restaurant favorite carpet store. Save wanted to take all the places that he thought McCall zoo into all fun kids things. He always seemed to embrace us as a family unit when he was what Liz. He's he's he said he really enjoyed Being a family man he said the things I would expect my brother to say about his family mm-hmm but as the years roll on T.. Determine no I'm never gonNA be married them. Never Away of children never going to be. The governor never going to be attorney. I'm just GONNA murder. And this is what makes nineteen seventy four so extremely different terminent uh-huh he's GonNa launch him so often before he's just gonNa keep doing Scherzer killed and you've written about how things did actually get disturbing at the time the ag were addy was mostly just confusing yet. It was confusing. And you didn't tell your mom. No he had become naked during the course of a game of hide and go see and I was very confused by that you said is is chain. His is changed and I got a real sense of direction at that moment of looking into is with him there. Naked that this. This was extremely dangerous and bad. Can you describe to me what your relationship was like in one thousand nine hundred ninety four. Well it had changed you know got together in the fall of sixty eighty nine so we'd been together. Several years and things changed in that he would start walking home late at night rather than spending the night at my house. It's a subtle changes Where I felt like maybe losing him he thought maybe worse case scenario someone never in my dreams? I think he was out stalking women and then eventually abducting the murdering women. Dan Healy was a very popular a young woman because she was on the radio five days a week at seven o'clock in the morning she gave the scare report all all my years of studying murder and never heard of an abduction quite like the limbaugh. Abduction I was one of many who listened to her in the morning morning and I realized the day that she wasn't on the air that there was something unusual she ever show for work by the use of frequent bar. You're Dante's to ever on the last night over life Linden. Haley went to Dante's with another girl in a friend of theirs but he I probably did follow them home and waited and he checked. The front door was unlocked. This says what makes this abduction. So incredibly surreal. He goes down in the basement. Healy's room he's aware that there's another bedroom on the other side. He would tell a brighter laters that he choked her. He moves off the Bat. He takes her ninety over. Hangs up in the closet. And he makes the bed Almost like in the military fashions and he cares at the end of the night. He takes her down the front steps and their steep APPs to wherever's cars parked and puts her in there he would turn new passenger seat around so nice. Why did that? Because that's the way he put his cargo in in. The Car Has Africa disgusting. What's he got girls to the destination key rape them? He bludgeoned them key. Molested their bodies. Uh and from there the nightmare began then Don Manson. She disappeared from Evergreen State College. And then you have. The abduction of Susan Ran Court from central Washington. Susan rank-order and Ellensburg was on her way. Were meeting to see about being a dorm counselor in May of nineteen seventy four reverted Kathleen parks missing and in those stays reported just as a missing student and these young women started disappearing and people wondered what's going on here and then Brenda Ball was abducted near the flame tavern. She wasn't a college student that made it all the more challenging because it it adds to to the randomness of the victims. He took his victims from where he could fit in. I mean he fit in great this. This is the psychological factor. You don't think a killer of women is going to be a good looking particular young man. You're not thinking in terms like that. John Hopkins was a student at the University of Washington. Georgeanne was is abducted in June of nineteen seventy four. She disappeared from an alley. One night lag wrong being a university district people walk around with all all hours. She went down the alley. It was Bundy is moving up the alley using a briefcase in some crutches and the Yemen walk down by so on saw her round the the north end of the block into the alley and stop for a moment and then keep walking down the alley about halfway down the block. I encounter and asked her to help me carry a briefcase which she did. We walked back up the alley does does he look like a killer look like an abductor. Women looks like somebody in need Scott like cast on his on his crutches who went to his room and one night. He had crutches leaning against the wall by the door to his through. My ask him what it was. Who's what was that for? And he said mm-hmm that his landlord had heard himself. I was on crutches but he was going to take the coaches back to the rental place so I made sense to me so they warheads. According to him right replaced a crowbar behind the right rear tire reached. A what happened was the bar was such force that she came out of one of shoes and both earrings there along with the crew and passengers. Joel Joel and drive to a spot. That he's already picked out going to be off of the main highway sometimes. Check the moon out to win when when it's going to be Bryant. I don't want to leave my headlights on to see what I'm doing and the speed with which she would have had to bone abducted tells you that probably probably the person that had done this before. We really could not find anything definitive. That tied all the victims together. It was and that I get knocked unconscious. Ted loved nighttime. Because he could be out Japan but not be seen but then there's the day where he took two girls in broad daylight and abductions would come back to bite Bundy converse people saw when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste. You need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need indeed dot Com post a job in minutes set up screener questions then. Zero win qualified candidates using an intuitive online dashboard. And when you need to hire fast accelerate your results with sponsor jobs new users can try it for free at indeed dot com slash twenty twenty. That's indeed dot com slash twenty twenty terms conditions and quality standards apply offer valid through March. Thirty first twenty. Twenty wave of fear swept all across crossed. The state of Washington was last seen Monday evening. Someone was inducting young women. It's hard to say whether there's any player not there was incredible pressure on law enforcement enforcement to find the person who is responsible for causing women to commission what cleverness cleverness or what sophistication of the suspect are you're looking for that can manage to pull that off. There were no clues whatsoever. I mean it's kind of remarkable that nobody saw anything but lakes was another story. Smashed Avo Clark was huge it was a magnet for all of us. Young and old place you would go to the mid West or something with this old fashioned concession. Stand and people just coming out with their little sailboats. SAILBOATS are coming out Tucson Joel. Fourteen by the place was absolutely packed or forty thousand people people there. I signed that morning he came over. We weren't giving along your well so I was surprised that he came in on what is going to do that day. I said I I was going to go to a park. And my in the Sun Molly was in Utah and he asked me Bitch Park and I think he was just wanting to know if you're going to like semantics than he wouldn't he wouldn't be going knowing that way a number of people that day at Lake Sammamish were taking photos and shooting film. Little did they know the police would want to review you. This footage Ted was able to to Meld into the crowd. He was wearing casual speech type clothing he was able to strike up conversations with people. He was able to convince Denise Naslund and Janice odd to help him with the reuss that he had a sailboat that he had his arm in a fake slang. If anybody has seen the silence of the lambs were the killer. Had Ed trying to get that couch into the van. And he's got a cast on that. That all came from Ted Bundy career. Sheriff Lundy was a real SCHEMA. Remember these abductions. Were benign nine on the face of them. They were always bundy. Approaching the women in a state of of presumed need or weakness. Nisa can you help me carry my books. My arms and slang. Can you help me load my sailboat. Onto my car there were three women that saw Janice hot roller roll or bicycle up to the beach. Lay Down Band. She had on Yellow Bikini. You can then. They observed this man walk up to her they. They heard her get up and say hi. I'm Jan he said I'm Ted. It is a real name. She was last seen headed toward the parking lot pushing her bike with him walking next door then she's never seen again. We did have about five or six. Other women come forward that said that they had been approached by guy with his arm in a sling. Her and they look just like Jan.. Assad Denise Naslund the First Janice went missing and that was early early in the morning she disappeared and then later he came back to to the Park Carney. Junior's farm K.. Jr's Seattle and Kevin O.. Rien at four zero nine. It was a Sunday afternoon. And my buddy and we noticed off to the side guy just a few feet from a standing in front of the women's bathroom and he was dressed nice casual joie clothes. With the oddest thing about it as he had a cast on his arm. Four Seventeen K. J. R.'s Seattle being a couple of SMART aleck teenagers. Who are thinking? Maybe maybe razzing the guy a little bit but it turned out it was our turn to get ice cream so we lost track. Guy Didn't think anything more about it. And that's when Denise Naslund was abducted those abductions were very brazen and in front of literally thousands of witnesses but witnesses did not know what they were saying with regard to introduce NASLUND her cards in the parking lot. Her purse is still there after her keys to cars. But she's done. Does that satiated with just one thing. He was trying to make a statement that day. It was almost the ethical way to women disappeared. It was as if the the stakes of the story had been raised if this dramatic way. Obviously it's not until much later that you're able to go back and piece together. Those abductions those murders with what you were actually doing with Ted at the time went out together shortly thereafter he called was pretty early in the evening. I WANNA say five thirty right after the second woman missing and did he sound any different. No no no no like as if nothing had happened right so we did. Did we went out to eat. It's just so hard to believe that. That's what he was doing. That's heartbreaking. It was also oh critical that people who were at the park that day who were taking photographs of their friends and family any filming that they had done turned over their photographs and filmed to us to see if we could find something that would be a clue. Marriage objections would come back to bite Bundy. People saw anti identify themselves as Ted. There's a Ted and he drives the Volkswagen and he's handsome and from from the witnesses that saw him composite drawings made. The picture came out. No question there's no question that this was the guy. Each lead has to be followed. Every phone call has to be made mostly nowhere some out with a speck of information. That may he's someday help. Clear up the mystery of the whereabouts of genocide and unease NASLUND nineteen year old Denise Naslund and twenty three year old Janice ought disappear on on a warm summer day at lakes a manage. Several witnesses told the smooth-talking good looking young man named Ted. He was starting to come upon him clues now. Guy Named Ted of VW a composite. Sketch your co workers brought over the sketch show to you. Was it because they thought the sketch looked like Ted. It was something about it. Grab on attention. There was something about the jaw line or something like that. Made me really weird and you call Seattle. Police call them honestly to a tip line that they had set up. There was something like three three thousand potential. Ted's who may or may not drive a Volkswagen and he was one of them but he had this terrific spotless clean record. You have to understand that. Detective work was organized in a very different way in the seventies there was no DNA evidence. Police departments didn't even have a fax machines let alone the Internet when they had a profile of him. I brought up to similarities to him. I said this is Ted Cheer. Name's Ted this guy has a VW. You drove the w you know it's you and he just laughed no monkey. Of course I would never do anything like that and you didn't think it either. No you were teasing. I was teasing him. Did you ever ask Ted. Are you concerned about the similarities Very beginning I asked. I said she read this. You know what you're saying. There's so many things that people are going to be looking at you kind of making making a joke out of it. But once they started to worry like could this be true. I didn't feel safe bringing that up on the notice thinking so so you did feel fear. Do it wasn't like was afraid of him I. He's kind of afraid of my own brain scored over and over this Monday. They realized that if he wanted to keep killing he was going to have to go somewhere where there was no investigation. He has the presence of mind to move from the WASHINGTON CANARIA TO UTAH. These excuse of going to the Utah Law Score. He gave Liz the option of going with him when he was probably probably delighted when she said No. I want to stay in Seattle with my friends. MONEY LEFT FOR UTAH. September third nineteen seventy four within twelve versa hours he would be murdering the Idaho. HITCHHIKER BUNDY WENT TO UNIVERSITY OF OF UTAH. School of law. When I was there at the law school I would have regular contact with Ted Bundy and everyone liked him? There were periods of time when he was absent percent from class and people would occasionally comment on that all. Ted's gone again the first semester. He's in class three times. He's like a kid in a candy store up to in in Utah around four women in the in just a matter of weeks. I get mad at myself. She weeks later on mine. Another pair comical. But that's what everything Bundy we had within. What is known as his murder? There were reasons behind it. The tire iron the garage of course gloves the items. There weren't there by chance and they all had a reason the raw connected the murder he said. I always trying to get rid of all all the evidence that would put me to the crime. So that meant I had to restock. Talk might toll kid. All the time Bundy ran to the Mormon church is kind of refuge. Kind of thing his angle at that point. They didn't know it was a bad guy by baptized tat. After we discussed the church with him and he made commitments. So we immediately started inviting to our social events parties dinners. We chatted and had fun and play Games. Are you still in daily contact with Ted is. He's in Utah. We'll talk on the phone a lot. He's just the ten. I knew nothing was miss. It's actually not uncommon for Su- killers to have quote unquote a normal life whether my killing people shortly after seven o'clock on the evening of November the Eighth Nineteen seventy-four Carol Garage parked car in this parking lot at the fashion mall shortly after began. What she now calls her personal nightmare nightmare? What makes the garage abduction? So pivotal is that. She's the only one who ever got away from Monday. She was approached by a man near Roldan's bookstore. This man identified himself as officer Roslyn and he said. Do you drove Camaro. She said yes so well. My partners holding the suspect individual tried to get into the car. He said they would have to go down to the main. Murray Police Department to sign a complaint right when I was in encouraging new I had made a mistake. Suddenly he just pulled the car over and it kind of went up on the side of the curb. And that's that's when I started absolutely freaking out. I remember screaming out. What are you doing? This isn't playstation. What are you doing and I tell he? He just changed and Salsa car tax. She knows she's in a fight for her. Live any handcuffs. The right wrist but in the midst of this fight when she scratching conforti she gets the pass new open and jumps out of the car. He came out after me out the passenger side. I remember filling a crowbar. A bar in his hand. He was trying to hit me over the head with a and struggling for awhile and then a car came along a ran out into the street and I just threw open their door and just jumped in on him. An elderly couple drove raunch to the Murray police station. The search for her abductor began. And so so this is the first time we have an eyewitness of somebody who survives Bundy attack. Sometimes the urges become such a compulsion and that they can't control themselves and that's when they make mistakes his compulsion that day was so high he had the Kelso Body. The first one didn't work out. He's now frustrated and so he goes to find a second victim teenager. Debbie can't they came back from Utah and she said. I don't want to scare you but it's happening down there now. The headlines of the missing woman had stopped in Seattle indeed left and they started in Utah is where he was CS. What did that feel like? Oh my God like the bottom of world was falling falling out too much of a coincidence so I did call King County. Police and I did meet with the detective. He knows that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I gave them some pictures of him and the children to the best witness from lexa manage. She pulled his shot. Sure the staff at the detective given said No. He's too old and put it back in the stack so you had cleared near conscience. The police have cleared him. I I just need to put these fears aside. You didn't trust your instincts. I knew him so well. Yeah and she loved him so much everything. I've been so good so this is just crazy. I think that Ted's girlfriend was very brave to call us. I think she called us in part out of fear in part out of public duty perhaps in part out of protecting herself show multiple contact with the police. They did do some investigation but it kept coming back. He's not your guy at the same time while he's committee new murders in Utah. The COPS in the state of Washington are finding finding bones and those funds are ultimately going to come back to haunt him. The heat is building up on him. Ted Starts Looking for a new killing field in Colorado. It's the winner of nineteen seventy five and TED head. Bundy's gotta find a place where there's not a lot of talk about missing women and where he can blend in so he ends up in Aspen. He was very familiar with ski resorts in Colorado. Already understood that Those places are populated by basically basically strangers on January twelfth nineteen seventy-five Karen Campbell disappeared from wild would end thirty six days. Later canoed body was found almost three miles away. Two months later he heads over to Vail and ends up killing twenty six year old ski the instructor Julie Cunningham. He was just not going to stop more relationships with dead woman by now living women it was all about the haunt bundy goes on this killing spree and he kills three women a twenty year old fifteen year old and a twelve year old and in the summer of one thousand nine hundred. Seventy five Bundy's luck is changing. He was going from being the hunter to being the hunted in. GRANGER Utah a small suburb. It was like two o'clock in the morning. Born cop is just getting off. Duty is name was Bob Hayward and he saw this Volkswagen parts and trying to a house he he knew they were too young women. Living there I turn that corner. Walk night my lights on bright stepped on the gas us. He's squirted freaks me out okay. He picks big mistake so there was a chase. He pulled a meal. Gas Station stopped. I pull my magnum out to sit in the crotch of the door. Uh unlicensed hole right there when hayward comes up with the car he sees the seat is out of space. You can stick a body and one of the car in his car. He had what we would call burglary tools. It's the scheme ask pantyhose with the is cut out. He had a pair of handcuffs head coach for student. Use them in my classes. I took him in and booked him. Unless there's something wrong with this guy that put him on the radar of Utah Law Enforcement and they had this unsolved abduction. Yeah I got a call and it was tapped. Says I've been arrested. Take what were you arrested for. All they think I'm the Ted Murderer and he laughed laughed. I didn't think he was guilty. At one point police did show you a photo of the items they found in Ted's car. How could he possibly explained that a way to you? They tried to just brush it off. I need the crow bar for if I get in a wreck and pray cars apart. I need this scheme ass for what I'm shoveling snow. You Know Carol Durant came to the police station was shown a lineup and was able to identify Bundy as the person to attack. Yeah he was arrested and charged with the kidnapping of pure raunch. WHO's a likable guy? And if he could be a killer who else might be. So people just didn't want to believe it I helped raise money to Bailey. matted jail everybody. Everybody in the ward felt he was innocent while he was on bail he came back correct. What was was that time like when I showed up at my door unannounced is taken aback? Started talking again. This is just ten. She was always kind of playing this. This dance around what her gut instinct was telling her and what the world around her was saying about the possibility of this perfect male person. Doing these terribly violent things. There was like a fleet of police cars undercover that would follow he and my mom if they and went anywhere and because of our placement in his world is the only reason that we're still alive. I'm quite certain because people had their eyes on it. Did that thought ever cross your mind. It is going to kill us. No did you think he was capable of murder. I mean I still believed leave. T. was innocent at that point during court proceedings in Utah. Bundy actually comes outside side and talks to the media. You want to get involved in the Criminal Justice League yes. I intend to complete my legal education and become a lawyer and Be a damn good lawyer. Testified in was the worst witness in the world he was an arrogant. You know. And that's the way he came across on the stand at the trial. Dhiraj picked out Bundy as her abductor. Thought he could lie about everything and get away with it. It's pretty hard to explain. Why you with an ice pick any PATIOS mask most of us? Don't have that in our cars. Ted Bundy was convicted with kidnapping. Carol Older Watch. Even after he was convicted. You thought it was a travesty of justice. You thought he was innocent. I started to think that my contacts with the police actually felt guilty so after Ted was convicted absolutely still thought he was innocent. Unvisited in there were still many people who thought that he'd been railroaded. Thought that he was innocent. He thought that he could Miss Police. Officers from Utah Washington State and Colorado get together together share notes and determine that they're all talking about the same God. Everybody knew he was there. Man Who's just just a case of proving but was that the moment that you knew the Manu loved was a serial killer and not just any serial killer Ted Bundy. The question is why can you imagine this woman and her. Her young child spent more than five years with him and somehow they survived decades later. They're speaking out on television for the very first time. Why did he love? You could have been love. It could have been just another manipulation at the center of the Ted. Bundy story is the idea that you you could've sat next to him and yet had no idea of what he was up. When you saw the Florida murders? Did you think it could be ted. Oh Oh my heart just dropped mice dollar Lancet the Ted Bundy. A Washington state resident was convicted last year of the kidnap assault of a young woman from Salt Lake City. After Bundy's convicted of the kidnapping. If Harold Garage detectives have found evidence linking him to the murder of Karen Campbell. January twelfth nineteen seventy-five Karen Campbell Campbell. Disappeared from the wildwood and. Here's in his Volkswagen bug of Victims Own Colorado in Utah that gave them enough evidence Winston file on him in Colorado or the first degree murder and kidnapping. They transferred him to Colorado to stand trial for the murder of Karen Campbell and they took him to the Jalen Aspen. At that point Ted. Bundy had become pretty big news. I called the sheriff. I asked you if I can speak with Ted Bundy. We sat in this narrow cell and the interview. You are not guilty. I'm not guilty. That include the time. I stole a comic book when I was five years old. I am not guilty with terrorists which has been filed against such a pleasant taught. Full calm demeanor. I wasn't at all convinced he was guilty. He's the most pleasant killer Brenner. Viewed no man is truly innocent. I mean we all have transgressed in some way in our life. I've been impolite and other things I regret having done in my life life but nothing like the the things I think you're referring to. I asked him physically made him angry and he said yes. I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do and I'll let my liberty taken away and I don't like being treated like an animal and like people walking around at ugly me. I can some sort of Weirdo. Because I'm not you think about getting out of here. Well legal issue graduated law school. where he he was assisting in his own defense he had a right to go? Use The library. This old courthouse allow library was up on the top floor. The judge decreed that he didn't have to wear shackles handcuffs so he walked about the courtroom and back into the library as the Freeman over the month. Side the number of the opportunities to just walk right out on a great deal of vanish gate than I get to know if I had the guts to cry. Frankly there's a picture of him coming into the building that morning and he's got really concentrated look on his face. He addressed with an extra layer. He had a sweater wetter under the one on the outside so he was planning to go that day. Outside for smoke. The windows are open and the fresh I share burn through in the sky was ready to go at a window to your honest to God. I just got tired of me talk about ten minutes before anyone realized they came out and shouted Bundy escaped. The team went up to the mountains aspen and he broke into a cab. You stayed in the cabin a few days into Aspen to this car which was unlocked and had the keys in ignition Russian. He drives through downtown Aspen in a Cadillac. who was a terrible driver by the way and there was a patrol car and they see this? We've this is late. Must be a drug well. He wasn't drunk of Ted Bundy back. He goes Here and you can see him grinning. When he's been captured he always acted like he pulled pulled one over on on everybody? He was moved to a facility. Lead with springs. Now's one of the staff photographers at the Seattle Times. I was given a chance to photograph this felony Ted. She had shackles on and I lay on the floor and photograph all kinds of different ways. I wanted to be seen Ted Bundy. Look at me. I'm captured but in his own mind. I'm not going to be here for long. So there was a great in the ceiling that was not secured there was a light fixture that was due to be welded. It had not been mauled when I visited him Glenwood. They noticed that he had lost a lot. Wait so I'd say the last twenty or twenty five pounds. I would think this would have come to the attention of jailers. Perhaps why is he doing this. Keep used a bunch of his law books and Kacem them along with some pillows to make it look as if they were body in the bed. Bundy had succeeded in carving a enough opening in the ceiling of his cell. He lost so much weight that he was able to wriggle through. You called through the ducting just like in a movie. He came down into the closet. And the jailer's apartment new the Jetta wasn't there and he put it also includes this astounding and he gets out into the light and these free again. They woke up in Glenwood glenwood springs and discovered at Bundy had escaped. Basically twelve hours before as you think it was possibly out this way. We've eliminated what we felt at that. Title Heini possibly escape from the roof. However we were all these keystone cops as the paper referred to let this guy go again with Garfield feel county doing the fight them? We're looking everywhere of trains. Buses the usual thing and I have no idea where he is he should be very careful. Should check on their neighbors. I make sure their cars are secure. We're just looking. I couldn't believe escape twice. This is bad ted. Bundy is on the loose and they have no idea where are he is who once he escaped he had an opportunity to go somewhere and disappear but he couldn't even do that he had to killing Bundy's escape bordered on a Houdini escapade through a twelve inch by twelve inch hole. All in the ceiling weaned. Bundy escaped detectives. said it's GONNA kill again. It's just a matter of time we don't know where or win but he will kill again when we now have to wait. Bali playing the Chicago Chicago took a train stole a car girl south to Atlanta and trailways bus Tallahassee. Bundy was an expert thief. Everything that he obtained was either through the stealing of credit cards or cash from wallets or purses and the money was very very very good at Florida State University in Tallahassee. The campus this was generally safe and secure that. We've not unusual three o'clock in the morning to see people walking back and forth across campus. Because they felt safe. I had joined disparity Chi Omega living at Cayo. My parents felt was much safer than to live in the dormitory. Being in Cuyamaca was wonderful. Part of my life was just like living with forty friends. Lor early morning hours often route. Fifty three o'clock and three fifteen a m there was an intruder in the column Mega Sorority House. He had with him some sort of wooden club. It was on routine patrol that night with my partner. We were approximately two blocks away from the Kyle Mega House. When we heard the call come on the radio so we drove straight there? I've lost up. The girls. Were yelling upstairs upstairs. And then there was a lot of cry and at the top of the stairs girl named Kari Chandler. She was down on the floor. She was bleeding quite badly for head injuries. Pretty much every bone in my face was broken. My front teeth Mostly gone I ask her what happened. She said there was a loud banging. We know it and then she made mention about make avocado. Her injuries. Were much more extensive of jaws actually hanging off. I remember then laying on my bed and trying to talk and I couldn't make any noise because my jaw was broken in three places decided to go ahead and start the room by room. Search a knock on the door from that moment and then get a response. I open the door and I went up. pull the covers back and I could see to strangle and beaten about the head. You could tell you that cost up across the hallway and there was another body in the bed Lisa leaving was being severely about the head and body she also strangled and a bite marks left on. It is so hard. See those girls. Sorry for their families. He's now on the run he's lost control to. He does something with little planning high risk taking on multiple women these on on a frenzy at this horrendous attack Chi Omega he goes just about four or five blocks away ended up at a we. Call the dunwoody resident. Don't which was the residence of Cheryl Thomas. I was a student Florida State University and I was a dance major. I woke up to this loud banging being sound. Then we could hear Cheryl Moaning whimpering and I called Cheryl. We could hear or the phone ringing because the wall was so thin but she wasn't answering her phone. And that's what possessed me to call the Police Department Senate investigator investigator. Immediately to that location. She went in and she found Cheryl Thomas on the floor and blood and beaten. I learned that Eh. He came in through my kitchen window. He had worn a hose over his face. He pulled that off and that was dropped on my floor. If I did not have my neighbors calling. I don't think I would have survived. Gosh I mean he left her for dead and I think it was a couple of days before I woke up and I didn't know what had happened. I remember flashes if things does that. Basically up intensive care I could not get the funeral. I wasn't hostile. I wanted to call the feelings but so it wasn't fair. It wasn't right that that should happen to them. They were both beautiful. Wonderful People There's no reasoning behind it. I was asleep in my room and yet evil opens a door and attack me and he went in there and food license space of fifteen minutes. That's breach woman came. He calls you. Can you tell me about that phone call in Florida. And what did you think when he said my heart is dropped from New York this is ABC weekend. You Four. Young women were beaten with a club and two of them were strangled to death last night. By a man who found around his victims sleeping and this sorority house I was leaving the Sorority House driving and I got a call over our radio that there's an investigator that wants to talk to me. From Out West I talked to the investigator and I wrote down a name that he gave me that he he thought. Maybe I should look into that name. Was Ted Bundy. But obviously I didn't think that was possible the Mo of abduction in a car didn't fit the MO of potentially abducting among some person and taking them somewhere. Perhaps in the woods a murdering them lasted down so we had was fresh asche murder in a house so I was somewhat dismissive when I was at the morgue and I looked at the bodies on Lisa lead. There was a bide laughed. That was very important. The person that bit at least a levy the once leased and then went back and build a second town. Almost exactly the cycle is I mean it was done so perfectly that I just believe in my heart that it was a signature about three weeks after the Chi Omega the tax in Tallahassee there comes word from Lake City. That's about ninety miles east of Tallahassee. That junior junior high school student Kimberly Leach disappeared during the middle of the smolder. It was raining drizzly. Very Dreary Day are went to are designated spot to meet up to go to our next class together and she wasn't there. We knew something was wrong. Kim Was not a student to skip class to leave campus. I mean we were twelve and she was very shy far fodder coming home and he saw a man walking across campus Kimba on him. He assumed that he was her father. Urging anyone anyone with any information about Kim relates to contact them as soon as possible in Pensacola a month onto after the mega taxes. This man is arrested on a traffic stop. He also made us stop because of the unusual babe bureau Volkswagen. He walked up to the vehicle. Then it crackles over the radio that this is a stolen vehicle Michael the officer and they have quite an encounter. Initially when I was put in place in the handcuffs on he kicked my feet south. Mummy and struck me with handcuff. That had been placed on one risk. And of course not be all puffy. And that's when I started to my own following. He wound up pistol-whipping to win. He's got this round mark claim right here. That's where you hit him with pistol barrel on he spends a couple of days stonewalling the police. Who is this man? He refused to give his name to authorities and then told his arresting officer many would probably get a promotion for nabbing him. They find out that his driver's licenses and who he is. The car. He's driving doesn't belong to him. Justice mystery guy to to people who want most to know who he is our Tallahassee Detective Steve Waterford and Dan Patrick. I sat there with my gave me. Ms Writes ask him. His name was started saying. Where'd you get? VW from he's stolen from you but similar about all these credit cards while got him out for people that were next door in the house the mystery man will be kept behind bars for three more weeks before returning to court to edit replete officials. Say by then. They hope to know who he is he says to the police. I'll tell you who I am. Just let me make a phone awesome. And he calls his old girlfriend describe telephone call receive. He said he was in custody. He repeated over and over again. That was really really gonNA be bad when it broke. Ask Him where he said Florida. And what did you think when he said Florida heart dropped and I said it was afraid that you who can be in Florida said I know I saw some pictures in the newspaper about some tragic murders down there. He said well. I wish I could talk with you. Nobody listening trying to tell me you're sick. He got really mad. He told me that he was sick. And that he he was consumed by something that he didn't understand and that he couldn't contain it by called back in the middle. I love the night just a day or two later. Said I want to talk about what we were talking about on the phone the other day and I said about being sick and he said yes. was that the moment comment that you knew the manual loved was a serial killer. took him telling me himself that he he had handed something wrong with him that he knew that he can be around a certain thing that he was addicted to something. He meant young woman causing them. Harm arm awful. How this man that I loved was seemed to be such a great guy could go out and do such horrific everything since two so hard to accept looking back? Obviously hindsight is twenty twenty. Were there any red flags. There'd had been one episode in particular right the week before. These two women are dotted from lake. Sammamish we've been rafting down very cold river. I was sitting on the edge of the rafting pushed me e n just quite violently the grabbed the whole of the road was dragging behind wrath. So that I could get back in but his eyes were so they just got really weird looking and it was like he couldn't didn't see me anymore. I got back in the raft and my started to chew. Chew him out for doing that and he finally came back to his body incid. Okay take jokers on the kidding here has is change absolutely like another person almost emerged moment. Did you feel fear no not at the time. I felt anger anger. Her yes about two months after she went missing Kimberly Night Leitch body was found. I should've been placed in the lane to shed in hog banned in this area. Ashley you don't understand even when you hear the details you can't comprehend it as being a twelve year old and this is your classmate who was innocent. Electricity Grand Jury issued a sealed indictment which presumably names Bundy for the murder of twelve year old. Kimberly Diane late. The the evidence against him in the Kimberly Leach case ranged from eyewitness testimony people seeing him grabbing or fibers receipts location. WHO's putting together pieces of a puzzle? We're starting to put all this together and we're tying it up. And what appears we now one bundle already. Two dozen law enforcement agencies told the Pensacola police that they want to talk with Monday. The walls are clearly closing in on. Ted Okay did you got the indict. It's all you're gonNA get Ted Bundy. The master manipulator makes a move that no one thought was covering. He called Glenis on Wednesday. Will you marry me. She said yes I do of ties or they can. What's going on? They always say in for the Chi Omega murders grand jury in Tallahassee issued an indictment against Ted Bundy can concern us sheriff of Leon County with low cameras rolling lights on read through the whole indictment. Robert you were charged. And of course he kept in a rotating me but I I just kept on. He's still look like the boy next door. Until that night indictments indictments were read. And that's when the devil came out he looked each of us in the. This was the killer in that room. You could feel and as you plead not guilty right now and your grandeur Abrahams running After ted is charged with murders and assaults at Florida state. You still always cases not west. Clearly Florida has the best evidence in so the prosecutors got together and said look. We're going to prosecute Ted Bundy from our perspective. I WANNA get bundy off the street forever. The trial got off kind of slowly because Bundy was not cooperating with his attorneys. Ted Bundy wanted to be the one who is in charge. They told me he was gonNA confess. Make it right for the people hurt and then he went on to this show of saying I'm innocent. I'm innocent I'm innocent. I'm just so angry about that. I'm here today because I assert my innocence. The judge allowed Ted Bundy to you. ACT AS CO counsel for a defendant to be a part of the defense team is extraordinarily unusual. He had gone to law school cool. This wasn't so farfetched for him to be in a courtroom lawyer that represents himself has a fool for a client. And I want to caution function you about that but I'm not going to deny that right so it's the ideal stage for Ted Bundy. He thinks he can manipulate and convince cheery through his charm and good looks that he couldn't have possibly committed these crimes every day during the trial and the courtroom was filled some reporters but mostly spectators. A number of them were young. Women who are I think just drawn to the allure of seeing this guy on trial carol. Boone was one of the constant personalities. Karel Boone actually met Monday back in his Washington Lynn state days so she knew him before any of these things happen. She was his advocate. She called him bunny. She was affectionate towards him. He literally sort of pulls her into his web convinces her he's not guilty. Your conclusion is what that he did not commit. The murders in Washington Washington state that he did not abduct Carol that he did not murder or of duct any of the other women in Utah that he did not kill Karen Campbell that he did not commit. The Crimes Mega City or on Dundee Street. Tallahassee was a true believer and she wanted everybody else to have the same conviction that he was not in guilty person. I called Ray crew the afforestation university police department to kind of set the scene of what uh he saw whenever he got to the cow mega house and for some reason. Mr Bundy decided that he wanted to crossing salmon officer. Craig Morrison Awesome. He asked him to describe in detail this horrific crime scene. You describe what you so. Listen listen to cover as much detail call for peaceful. She was live basically faced down. There was a considerable amount of around her head manager. Here on the walls there was a palpable reaction in the courtroom and among jury. When he did that her mouth there was what appeared announced that it around her neck as I was describing her injuries and the blood his grip on electron tightened up and it is actually got a little bit larger? I had the distinct impression that he was precariously. reliving it and enjoy it was so chilling. It was sickening thickening. The week began with the prosecution. Introducing evidence to prove that Ted Bundy was the man seen by an eyewitness leaving the scene of the crime that Ted Bundy's hair matched hairs found in a pantyhose mask that a bite mark left on one of the victims could have been made only by Ted Bundy the bite right mark evidence. It was both new and Unorthodox and compelling and the trial versus a verdict. The jury defendant the door Sunday after the indictment of murder in the first degree of putting one Margaret Bowman guilty as charged. Ted's ultimately convicted basically all the charges. The jury recommends he gets death. The judging gives death it is further ordered that on such schedule late that you may put today after the Chi Omega trial and he was convicted convicted in those murders he was then facing a new trial. The second trial was over the kidnapping and murder. Kimberly Leach which occurred in Lake City. Florida the murder. I think you've felt most connected to was Bundy's last murder and abduction action of a twelve year old Kimberly Leach because you were twelve. Yeah I mean it's hard to find words for you. How devastating it is the loss of this Girl and the things that he did her really so as you can see been a lifelong source of agony thinking about about her her parents her friends that someone was capable. That's one enjoyment in harming a child mm-hmm and utilizing a child was very compelling circumstancial evidence case it did not surprise me at all. The verdict is guilty. Then abilities bundy represented himself and he called and Perr on Wednesday and had her tests. How about how much she loved him and out of the blue happens? He actually proposes loses to Karel Boone in front of a camera Cara and I now pronounce man and wife at that time under Florida Law. If you ask someone to marry and the person says yes And there's a notary public there. It's illegal march okay. Sime soon limited married her on there in the middle of pinks. Thanks so now ted. Bundy is a convicted murderer. He's an new husband and he is in effect a dead man walking. I don't think anybody doubted that I've done some bad things that the question is what of course and he accordingly wine Ted Bundy's now on death row and and you have a whole range of people who still want to talk to him. We don't understand what makes a person like that click. So we won't try a five figure that out Ted Bundy primarily talked to Bob Keppel a homicide detective from Seattle and Bill Myer an FBI theat profiler we were interviewing serial killers serial rapists were looking for understanding and how you or someone like you got away with what you did and he said you think I'm going to say I did anything to you and I said no I don't think so at all I'm just GonNa ask you your perceptions. On different cases he didn't launches into conversations Sion's about quote unquote helping them with other show killers going in telling things about with the killer might have done. He's actually telling on himself became clued me and he went back to a lot of scribes returning bodies whatever whatever drives them to do that curiosity or desire in here is some kind of real place. You'll always be sacred to them. Typically if he killed their wild Ted Bundy is on death row. He's even figured out a way to manipulate the system and possibly father a child married Carol. Boone we thank. The guards allowed them to have an element of Privacy Masih to where he can have sexual intercourse with are there. Were pictures at the time of Ted Bundy with Carol and a child. It's clear clear. The photograph was taken on death. Row On January twenty four th at seven seven. AM The death warrant will be an effect just a few days before his execution he decides. He's going to start confessing because he felt that if he finally starts doling out information nation perhaps the state will keep him alive indefinitely he became very desperate and he wanted to offer the authorities. Something called bones for time. I I mean I'm the only one in position this information. That's just the way it is to do a proper job for everybody we're GONNA I'm Meyer was quite successful in getting Bundy to actually confess. How many we went over this a little bit earlier with thirty experts experts think the number is much higher than it could have been well over one hundred but we will never know him? He's talked about having sex with them while they were unconscious conscious or having sex with them which is called necrophilia after they've died. I'm not sure how many you onto December the heads. Were you cope with thirty now. All of a sudden he wants to tell the truth for him to be negotiating for his life over the bodies. The victims is despicable juvenile in fifteen years. A couple of months is not gonNA make any tips. You don't negotiate with a murder. You don't negotiate with a killer. The Florida Governor says. He's fully confident. Bundy will be executed tomorrow morning. The really festive Ted. Bundy t shirts people truly were saying Now bundy's meeting with the minister. In one of those death row cells behind the minutes head will be shaved as he's prepared Genuinely scared to justice he'd been shaven he didn't look like the way next door. His head was completely bald and I literally saw him these just collapse. When he saw the chair knew he wasn't going to get away? I welcome over and I sat down. Share in line and tell switch been thrown mm-hmm clinching owner. How many throats time around it was executed? Sixteen care it's been more than thirty years since that day. Now Liz. Talking about the darkness she lived through and how she survived and her emotions are still very intense. Have you both been able to love again. And Trust crossed again There have been a lot of Ted Bundy specials documentaries people have been fascinated with him for more than three decades and you been conspicuously suspiciously absent from all of those projects. Well we've been approached a lot about participating in various things but we really didn't want to put more Ted Bundy out into into them. Now as a part of their healing process live and molly had decided to take part in a five part series called Ted Bundy falling for a killer. It tells hostess story from the Perspective of the women who were directly affected by his crimes very surprised that he was having this meltdown. I know now in hindsight what he was talking about. I came to age at the time the crimes came to light. He is metaphorically. Still the reason I locked my door at night and I didn't feel the story had been told ever from the perspective of the women. We all know oh a lot about him. Few people can name any of his victims to see those women's names when you see their faces. What goes through your mind world boss so much Susan ranker's mother who talks about the fact that she would she loved science? And you just wonder if Ted Bundy him taking her life what could she have done without love the Docu series so powerful because it makes it clear what our society is lost by. This man's actions at Bundy story is the idea. You could have sat next to him that you could have been in a relationship with him and yet had no idea of what he was up to. I know you've asked yourself this many times. Why do you think he spared you? Whatever transpired at the beginning of his interaction with my mother put her are in a different category and I think our placement and his life kept us safe involved involved with us? I feel grateful nod to open heart when I see what the big picture was here. I don't feel sorry for myself. I actually felt very grateful to be alive and really grateful to. How'd my mom alive? Listen I think especially for you. I'm sure there's guilt guilty about causing Nissim. My daughter's life guilt about what he had done guilt that I had loved of dismantle it so gruesome. I quit drinking right after. He was convicted in Utah Kidnapping and started a recovery program. Go ahead I just feel like a lot of delivering immortals pretty depressing. I think that was the start of rebuilding my life. But it's taken a lot of time. What can we learn from your story? Great and all those other women's stories. What do you hope people take away from this? I hope to see that it's possible to have terrible traumatic addict experiences. That it's possible to rebuild you are processes probably nothing like the process. The families of these are killed. Surely a million times harder Being in the room there with molly and Liz it's clear. Even after all these years how raw emotions still are and how they will never fully escape those memories so understandable and your interviews are really powerful so Braida them to come forward. You can hear much more from these women on the Amazon Prime Video Series Ted Bundy falling for a killer and it streaming now that is twenty two thousand four tonight. I'm David Muir and I'm amy robot. Thanks for watching from all of us here at twenty twenty and A._B._C.. News good night.
Full Episode: Friday, February 15, 2019
"Are you hiring with indeed you can post job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash twenty twenty. That's indeed dot com slash twenty twenty. State prison. Mr. Ted Bundy he'd been involved in how many Amish. L we came up with thirty could've been well over honored. But we will never know we collectively still have this fascination about him. This new film filming which Zach Ephron plays. Ted bundy. I'm going. Was debonair you could be classy when he needed to go ladies loved it could've dated anybody. Almost the African away women disappeared. How do you vanish? But it hard to explain why drive around with an ice pick and a pantyhose mass almost taunting quality like catch me. If you can what do you got there? Bob. Well, it looks like a job got teeth in it. Yes. He would be the last person you'd ever think would be a serial killer. You're gonna find. There isn't anybody who grew up here that is of certain age that doesn't have a Ted Bundy story. His presence here is huge. It's such an amazing story that touches on so many things it is part of the history of the Pacific northwest. It's part of the history of criminal Justice in the United States. It's a story worth telling who was this young man on the Pacific northwest, the son. We raised was a wonderful good person. He was the perfect young man empathetic sympathetic ambitious. You know, how to flatter people? He knew how to win their trust. It was good looking and charming and seemingly had the world in his grasp and was going to be a successful guy. There were two bundy's. The only people that ever saw the diabolical Bundy whereas victims there is the personality that was the fake and on. There is the personality that was the killer. I think we definitely have to be careful to not remiss a Cise people like to bundle. I never wanted to think people were born evil, but my opinion about that change when I'm at Ted. I think uses warning. Seattle was a smaller more unisom place. But I mean women were moving about ways that were probably more autonomous and women's movement was you know, in full early flour than it was a time. When many women were feeling very independent. So people didn't think right away that a woman who hadn't been seen for a few days might have fallen in tarps way. When you look at Ted Bundy was about the right age to be in college. He drove a Volkswagen beetle very very popular car in the seventies. And so when he would move into a college campus, he just fit right in. But that was disarming to his victims. Like, he should be here. He looks like one of us. He drives one of our cars. I remember being with Ted and driving up the road and just having a great time. And they have a lot of man-made little lakes in the middle of Seattle. And we'd go out and may there go swimming. I like talking to teddy was an intellect, and we talked a lot about political things and how they ran the government and things like that where he graduated in June of seventy two from the university of Washington with a degree in psychology. Why does he get green psychology for my view? He does that because he wants to be able to continue to manipulate people. One of his activities was to be involved in political campaigns governor. Evan brought down the aisle and given a tumultuous welcome. He worked for the committee to reelect and Evans he had aspirations. He wouldn't go to law school. I mean, he was thought to be sort of a rising star in the Republican party in Washington state people thought he was going to be, you know, young Ted Kennedy, but for the Republican party, but again, they saw an exterior that he worked hard to create this facade. I think a number of things conspired to make Ted Bundy Ted Bundy. Was filled with rage at his mother. Ted was illegitimate. There are a lot of things for tend to be angry about who. When you look at childhood of serial killers. There are some common themes that I see them and Ted's case where there's dysfunction in the family, and what happens is they grow up with a lot of rage typically towards women he wanted to be from family that had money and he wasn't. It's another sort of checkmark to use against his mother that she didn't marry somebody wealthy. So he didn't have to go out and steal to look wealthy. This is a guy who from the earliest age was a petty thief. He talks about having been a peeping, Tom at some point in the idea that Ted Bundy was involved in peeping actually make sense because it's basically a training ground about how you isolate people. How you watch people how you get into houses. He was a night person. He would get restless get in his car and drive for great distances. So he was a role. Mom, always one thing. We know is that as a youngster that the very early warning sign about people who become killers about mutilating animals. He was doing that animal. Mutilation is really fairly common in people who ended up being Syra Gillers just because his fascination with death. But a part of him longed to be with somebody or a part of something part of a family. He had this long time girlfriend who had a child that he spent a lot of time with them, Elizabeth clever was a young mother, and she was just getting over a terrible relationship. One night. She meets a charming stranger in a bar. It's Ted Bundy they start having an incredible relationship in her mind. I went to go meet with Liz and Liz brought out these photo albums, and I'm coming through these photo albums. It's this happy family unit. There's pictures of these three people camping birthday parties skiing. There's the young daughter. There's Elizabeth club for and there's Ted Bundy when he was what lose he's he said he really enjoyed being a family, man. He said the things that I would expect my brother to say about his family. People are complicated. And Bundy was that he was also somebody who had impulses, or at least wanted to appear as a helpful benign member of society and contributor one day in Seattle when Ted was Northgate mall, and he was coming out of the mall and saw a young man the grab a woman's purse in Ted took off after him. He managed to go and physically restrain the offender until law enforcement got their got the woman's purse back and her thirty dollars that was in her wallet. Do ultimately sort of written up as a quote, I'll good hero. He's really big on. I want attention. And that's a way to get it. Obviously. But as the years roll on T determine that no. No, I'm never going to be married. Never alive. Children. I'm never going to be the governor a never gonna be in the Terni. I'm just going and this is what makes nineteen seventy four. So extremely different. Determent? He's gonna launch himself into fulltime murder, and he's just going to keep doing it until he was captured or killed. In Seattle in the winter. The ski report is a very big deal. Because that's when you decide whether or not you're going to work or you going skiing. Wendy on. Healy was a very popular young woman because she was on the radio five days a week at seven o'clock in the morning. She gave the scare report. All of my years of studying murdered and never heard of an abduction quite like, the Linda man Healy abduction. I was one of many who listened to her in the morning, and I realized the day that she wasn't on the air that there was something unusual. She ever showed for work while the use of frequent bar Dante's to ever on the last night over life Linden. Healy went to Dante's with another girl and a friend of theirs. But he probably did follow them, home and waited and he checked the front door, and it was unlocked. This is what makes us adoption so incredibly surreal he goes down in the basement enters Healy's room, he's aware that there's another bedroom on the other side. He would tell of writer later that he choked her he moves off the bed. He takes her ninety over hangs up in the closet, and he makes the bed almost like in a military fashion. He cares at the end of the night. He takes her down the front steps and their Steve stabs to wherever's cars parked and puts her in there. He would turn passenger see around. So it was and I asked him why you did that. Because that's the way he put his cargo in in the car. As effort disgusting strange during the chances, he took it's not just that he went out and committed murder, but he seemed impervious to feel and from there the nightmare began. Then Donna Manson she disappeared from evergreen state college in their Olympia. And then you have the abduction of Susan ran court from central Washington. Susan ranked courted and Ellensburg was on her way. When meeting to see about being a dorm counselor. In may of nineteen seventy four I was at Oregon state university and reverted Kathleen parks went missing. And in those days reported just as a missing student, and these young women started disappearing and people wondered what's going on here that seemed to be a narrative that was just building in this incremental way. And then Brenda ball was of -ducted near the flame tavern. She wasn't a college student that made it all the more challenging because it it adds to the randomness of the victims. He took his victims from where he could fit in. I mean, he fit in great. They were in places that Ted Bundy feel comfortable. This is the psychological factor. You don't think killer of women is going to be a good looking or tick Hewlett young, man. You're not thinking in terms like that. Georgeanne Hawkins was a student at the university of Washington georgeanne was abducted in June of nineteen seventy four on a beautiful warm summer evening. She disappeared from an alley one night behind Greek role being a university district. People are walking around all hours. She went down the alley. There was Bundy. Mr. tape recorded interview. Bob keppel. Bundy was moving the alley using a briefcase in some crutches and the woman walked down. A so on some around the north end of the block into the alley and stop for a moment. And then keep a walking down the alley toward about halfway down the block, I encountered her and asked her to help me carry the briefcase, which she did we won't back up. The only those you look like killer. Does he look like an end of Doug of women? No, he looks like somebody in needs got like a lake cast on his on his crutches. He had placed a crowbar behind the right rear tire. What happened was not do? Unconscious or the cool bar. Was such force that she came out of one of her shoes and both are earrings rule. It was a man there along with the group and go through glitter in passengers card. Drove away. Drive to a spot that he's already picked out going to be off of a main highway Z said sometimes you check the moon out to when when it's going to be bright. And I don't want to leave my headline. So into say what I'm doing? Physical person here. One second and seconds later. They're gone, and nobody has seen anything. Georgeanne Hawkins was last seen Monday evening shortly after midnight. She had been visiting at the beta house and was returning to her house. Just a half block away down. This alley and the speed with which she would have had to of -ducted tells you that probably the person had done this before police say they will return to this alley at night to determine the lighting of the area. Meanwhile, they're asking the girls to stay out of the alleys and travel in groups of twos or threes and use only the front doors. We really could not find anything definitive that tied all the victims together these spec foul play in this disappearance. The suspect any foul play. We've just got the case this morning. And it's it's hard to say one of those any foam layer, not long short of it was that I again, knocked unconscious. Remarkably considering the circumstances under which these women disappeared. Nothing was seen or heard. There were no real clues. Nobody saw them leave with anyone. No one saw them in a automobile Ted loved nighttime because he could be out, and but not be seen. But then there's the day where he took two girls in broad daylight, and those of Dunkin's would come back to bite Bundy. And the very simple reason as people saw him. Are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash twenty twenty. That's indeed dot com slash twenty twenty. A wave of fear swept all across the state of Washington to us last seen Monday evening when someone wasn't deafening. Young women. Player or not. There was incredible pressure on law enforcement to find the person who was responsible for causing these women to go missing. It was an ultimate challenge. Burger. What cleverness or what sophistication of the suspect? Are you're looking for that can manage to pull that off. There were no clues whatsoever. The minutes kind of remarkable that nobody saw anything. But lex manage was another story. Waksman mistake. Clark was huge. It was a magnet for all of us. Young and old lick place. You would go to in the mid west or something with this old fashioned concession stand and people just coming out with their little sailboats or coming out to son. Joe out fourteen nineteen seventy four the place was absolutely packed forty thousand people there. A number of people that day at lake sammamish. We're taking photos and shooting film a little did. They know the police would want to review this footage. Ted was able to meld into the crowd. He was wearing casual beach type clothing. He was able to strike up conversations with people. He was able to convince today's Naslund and Janice odd to help him with the Reuss that he had a sailboat that he had his arm in a fake slang. If anybody is saying the silence of the lambs wherever the killer had that trying to get that couch into the van, and he's got cast on that that all came from Ted Bundy. Sheridan, Monday was a real scheme or. Remember that these abductions were benign on the face of them. They were always. Bundy approaching the women in a state of of presumed need or weakness, you help me carry my book, smile, arms and slang. Can you? Help me load. My sailboat onto my car. There were three women that saw Janice hot rower bicycle up to the beach in lay down. And she had on yellow bikini. Can then they observed this man walk up to her. Here. They heard her get up and say, hi, I'm Jan. And he said, I'm Ted. He gave his real name. She was last seen headed toward the parking lot pushing her bike with him walking next door. And then she's never seen again. We did have about five or six other women come forward that said that they had been approached by the guy with his arm in a sling. And they look just like Jan Assad. Denise Naslund, someone is far as the parking lot saw the Browns Volkswagen bug, but no, no boat. And at that point he said all the boats have my folks house in its acquire. It'll just take it. Those women backed off, but Jan Assad left walking with him at noon and never came back. First Janice went missing and that was early early in the morning, she disappeared. And then later he came back to the park. The time difference to one was about ten. Yeah. There was four thirty. Junior's farm K JR's Seattle and Kevin O'Brien at four zero nine. It was a Sunday afternoon, and my buddy, and I had this great idea. Well, hey, let's take a break. Let's go down to the lake maybe we can grab something to eat. And we noticed off to the side this guy just a few feet from standing in front of the women's bathroom, and he was dressed in nice casual clothes with the oddest thing about it is he had a cast on his arm four seventeen in K J R's Seattle. So we were going to actually being a couple of smart Aleck teenagers who are thinking. Maybe razzing the guy a little bit. But it turned out. It was our turn to get ice cream. So we, you know, lost track of the guy didn't think anything more about it. Twenty six Nelson was abducted. Those abductions were very brazen. And in front of literally thousands of witnesses, but the witnesses did not know what they were seeing. With regard to these Naslund her cards in the parking lot. Her purse is still her her keys to riccar still there. But she's done is good. Does that satiated with just one thing? He was trying to make a statement that day. For Ted the thrill of coin back to where he'd been successful in the morning and being able to abduct another woman was probably. Very exciting for him. It was almost the Africa the way to women disappeared. It was as if the the stakes of the story had been raised in this dramatic way. It was also critical that people who were at the park that day who were taking photographs of their friends and family any filming that they had done turned over their photographs and filmed to us to see if we could find something that would be a clue. The like Samantha objections would come back to bite Bundy. People saw him and he identified themselves as Ted there's a Ted, and he drives the Volkswagen, and he's handsome and from the witnesses that saw him were composite drawings made. When the picture came out, you know, when they finally got eight Ted Bundy picture of this person of interest. No question in our minds. No question that this was the guy h lead has to be followed. Every phone call has to be made mostly some pan out whether speck of information that may someday help clear up the mystery of the whereabouts of Janice and an east Nadler. And it was a very creepy sensation knowing that we were just steps away from somebody who is ultimately responsible for doing some very very very dastardly dis. One thing since the publication of the description of the man called Ted there have been no further disappearances from this area. John Sandifer for ABC news in Seattle. Find. Intelligent, others. Nineteen year old and he's Naslund and year old Janice aut disappear on a warm summer day at lake sammamish. Though, there was no sign of the women. Several witnesses told of a smooth talking good looking young man named Ted. Keet was starting to come upon him because of his daylight adventures in lake sammamish. Clues. Now, the guy named Ted of VW a composite sketch funding if you want to keep killing he was going to have to go somewhere where there was no investigation. So what is Bundy do? He has the presence of mind to move from the Washington area to Utah. And again, he starts changing his tactics finally killing Brown use excuse going to Utah law score that he gave Liz the option of going with him. He was her prints. She had dreams of him becoming an attorney and having a white picket fence was probably delighted when she said, no, I want to stay in Seattle conference at the houseboat where I lived and and pitcher of him. What makes this photo that has surfaced from Maryland Cheinal? So in credibly interesting and incredibly important is because he's. Stressed been basically the same outfit that he warned at lake sammamish on July fourteenth of nineteen seventy four. She was crying. And I just you know, kind of gave him a good bye. And he got in the car and drove away. Within twelve or so hours. He would be murdering the Idaho Iger. After this picture appeared the task force received one call among thousands of others. This particular caller said a man named Ted Bundy looked quote, something like the picture. Tuned in. And the police never did anything with it called the police more than once stating that she believed her boyfriend Ted Bundy was the color. Bundy went to university of Utah school of wall. When I was there at the law school, I would have regular contact with Ted Bundy, and everyone really there were periods of time when he was absent from class and people would occasionally comment on that all Ted's gone, again, the first semester he's in class three times. He's like a kid in a candy store up at in in Utah around four women in the end just a matter of weeks. Get mad at myself. She weeks later because it has to mine other pair comical, but that's what everything Bundy had within. What is known as moderate get. There were reasons behind it the tire and the garage, and of course, gloves, and it wouldn't matter the item on the planned very carefully to use everything that he had his standard Merck at it wasn't the items there weren't there by chance. They all had a reason. The raw connected the martyr. He said, I always tried to get rid of all all the evidence. That would put me to the crime said that meant I had to restock Mike toll kid all the time. Bundy ran to the Mormon church is kind of refuge kind of thing that was his angle at that point. They didn't know it was a bad guy. So they took him they meant damn joined the church by baptize tat after we discussed the church with him and he made commitments. So we immediately started inviting to our social events parties dinners, and he was a gourmet cook. And he cooked dinner for about seven of us fabulous cook. And we chatted and had fun and played games. It's actually not uncommon for sue killers to have quote unquote, a normal life whether violently killing people shortly after seven o'clock on the evening of November the eighth nineteen seventy-four Carol Dhiraj park Takhar, and this parking lot at the fashion mall shortly after began what she now calls her personal nightmare. What makes the Carol the raunch obstruction? So pivotal is that she's the only one who ever got away from. Money. She was approached by a man near Roldan's bookstore. This man of dinovite himself as officer Rosalyn. And he said, do you drove a Camaro? She said, yes. So we'll my partners holding the suspect in this individual tried to get into the car. Just starting to feel a little uneasy night thought I could smell alcohol, and that's when he just promptly pulled out. His wallet showed me a bad, but we walked across the street to a laundry mad, and there was a side door marked one thirty nine. And he said that was a substation. Anyone drive and he said the doors locked he said, they would have to go down to the main Murray police department to sign a complaint drama Volkswagon, which I thought we'll bass kind of odd, but maybe undercover and I got in. He had a downside straight. And then he suddenly pulled over a on the side of a curve by an elementary school. And that's when I just start freaking out. What are we doing accordia talks? She knows she's in the fight for her life, and he grabbed my arm, and he got one hand of on one rest, and he didn't get the other one on and the one was. Dangling. I had never been so frightened in my tire life. She jumped out of the car. The man jumped out waving what looked like a crowbar. She broke loose ran to the street flag down a passing car and an elderly couple roved raunch to the Murray police station, the search for her doctor began, and so this is the first time we have an eyewitness of somebody who survives a Bundy attack. Sometimes the the urges become such a compulsion that they can't control themselves. And that's when they make mistakes, his compulsion. That day was so high he had to kill somebody the first one didn't work out. He's now frustrated and so he goes to find a second victim. We were having dinner and department. It was when the composite pitchers of a so-called Ted murder were coming out in Salt Lake City because a girl had been kidnapped and she had survived and Ted said, I know how someone could do this. You would kidnap the person in one county take her to a second county murder. Her throw her clothing in a fourth county on her body or body parts somewhere else. I think Ted was a little proud of how it how he was getting away with it and explained exactly how he was doing knowing that we wouldn't ever catch on at the same time while he's committee new murders in Utah. The cops in the state of Washington are finding bones, and those bones are ultimately going to come back to haunt him. The bodies of four more young women were found on Taylor. Mountain all of them had been strangled or bludgeoned by this brutal killer. The heat is building up on Ted then starts looking for a do killing field. Colorado. It's the winner of nineteen seventy five and Ted bundy's. Gotta find a place where there's not a lot of talk about missing women and where he can blend in. So he heads up the mountains to Colorado. He was very familiar with ski resorts in Colorado already understood that those places are populated by basically strangers, and he was fit in quite well, he ends up in Aspen. On January twelfth nineteen seventy-five Karen Campbell disappeared from the wild would end. The end up at the Wildwood. Karen Campbell was a nurse from Michigan. She had come to the world with that just like David four Karen Campbell sat with her fiance. Dr Raymond Godot ski in front of a fire in the lobby of the Wildwood end, they had just finished dinner miss Campbell wanted a magazine from her room about eight o'clock in the evening. She caught the elevator to the lobby to the second floor. That was the last time. The Dow sqi saw her alive. These there. Anyway. She was gone. Thirty six days later, her nude body was found almost three miles away. True months later, he heads over to Vail and ends up killing twenty six year old ski instructor. Julie cunningham. He was just not gonna stop had more relationships with dead women by now than living women. There was all about the haunt. Bundy goes on this killing spree. It costs north west. And he kills three women a twenty four year old fifteen year old and a twelve year old. There was no pattern between Seattle and Utah and Colorado. There was no physical tide of them. There was nothing to loopless altogether. In the summer of nineteen seventy-five, bundy's lock is changing. He was going from being the hunter to being the hunted. In Grainger, Utah's a small suburb. It was like two o'clock in the morning. Compas just getting off duty is name was Bob Hayward. And he saw Volkswagen parts in front of our house. You knew their two young women living there. Neck core. Kicked the burden. My lights on bright stepped on the gas. And he's it. Dale, okay. All big mistake. So there was a chase. He pulled a meal gas station stops stopped all my door. And he was out coming back towards me. I pull my magnum out to sit in the crotch the door unless his whole right there. Standstill. When Hayward comes up with the car. He sees that the seat is out. Electon that side. This e was leeann in the backseat. Quarter space. You can stick a body. He says the seats broke out again. Thanks. If I look through your car. In his car. He had what we would call burglary tools. The ski mask pantyhose with the is cut out. He had a pair of handcuffs. I'm a law student use them in my classes. Now, what is the person doing out in the middle of the night in a residential neighborhood with all of those items and he's driving of? Okay. So I can buck. I took him in and booked him. I there something wrong with his guy. That putting on the radar of Utah law enforcement, and they had this unsolved abduction of Iran. I got a call and it was dead. He says I've been arrested. What were you arrested for all? They think I'm the Ted murderer. And he laughed. I laughed. I didn't think he was guilty. When he came to the police lineup. We made all sorts of attempts to make himself facially difficult to identify part of his hair on the other side. So he did have a chameleon like quality. Carol Durant came to the police station was shown a lineup and was able to identify Bundy as the person who attacked. He was arrested and charged with the kidnapping apparel. Watch a likable guy. And if he could be a killer who else might be so people just didn't want to believe it. I helped raise money to Bailey matted jail. Everybody in the ward fell. He was innocent. I was assigned. Ted bundy's case by the office opposes fence ten. Immediately said something is silly little case in Utah. Kind of I'm rooting it's not a slew little case. During court proceedings in Utah Bundy, actually comes outside and talks to the media. Do you feel about the Justice system in your head? Well, I'm sure it works. You've got to have faith little work or else, you do you be reduced to some kind of in a mumbling idiot. I believe it works. I believe it needs to be improved. When you mentioned improvements does that mean, ultimately, you want to get involved in the criminal Justice? Yes. I intend to complete my legal education and become a lawyer and be a damn good lawyer. Whether you testify or not is one of the only things that defendant has the sole decision making power over and Ted. Of course ignored vice testified in. Was the worst witness of the world? He was an arrogant. Basically. And that's the way he came across on the stand. At the trial Dhiraj picked out Bundy as her objector. I pointed out him said he was he was the one. He was the man that tried to kidnap me. Thought he did lie about everything get away with it. It's pretty hard to explain why you drive around with an ice pick and a pantyhose mask most of us. Don't have that in our cars. Ted Bundy was convicted of kidnapping Carol Dirac. Verdict is guilty. He was going to be headed to Utah state prison. Police officers from Utah, Washington state and Colorado get together share notes and determine that they're all talking about the same guy. Everybody knew it was there, man. It was just a case of proving. But. He's planning the scape. Anybody else that done bad things? The question is. Here does I mean years after this? We're still talking about the person they invented the terms through killer for. He referred to the women in his folks again as cargo as advocates. You don't think killer of women is going to be a good looking articulate lost in the ladies loved. He was entertaining funny. There were clues. Now, the guy named Ted w a composite sketch that was an intruder and the column latest Rory house. He had with him some sort of club. Sleep in my room, and yet evil opened the door and attack me, but I was dealing with a beast Damon. Ted Bundy, a Washington state resident was convicted last year of the kidnap assault of a young woman from Salt Lake City after bundy's convicted of the kidnapping imperilled Doron. Detectives have found evidence linking into the murder of Karen Campbell on January twelfth nineteen seventy-five Karen Campbell disappeared from the wild would end. Here's in his Volkswagen bug of victims from Colorado in Utah. And that gave them enough evidence to file on him in Colorado who was a first degree murder and kidnapping charge. They transferred him they took into the jail and Asman. At that point Ted Bundy had become pretty big news. I called the sheriff. I asked him if I speak with Ted Bundy. We sat in this narrow sell to the interview you are not guilty. Not guilty. Does that include the time? I still comic book when I was five years old. I'm not guilty terrorists which have been filing into such a pleasant full calm demeanor. I wasn't at all convinced. He was guilty. He's the most pleasant killer Burr interviewed no man is truly innocent. I mean, we all transgressed in some way in our lives. I've been impolite and their things event having done in my life. But nothing like the things I think that jury for two creeps kind of grew on me when he talked about feeling for the family. I've been told. That, you know, the parents of these these girls are fairly decent people. I don't know. And I really feel for that. Because apparently they suffered some credible tragedy in their lives. You could tell he was just mouthing the words they didn't really sink into him feels much for anybody. Can I ask him to physician made him angry? And he said, yes, I don't like being locked up for something. I didn't do like my liberty taken away. And I don't like being treated like an animal, and I like like people walking around at awfully me like in some sort of weirdo because you think about getting out of here. Well, legally, sure. Graduating about a month. Law school becomes we're he was assisting in his own defense. He had a right to go use the library. This is involved or courthouse allow library was up on the top floor. Judge decreed that he didn't have to wear shackles handcuffs. So he walked about the courtroom and back into the law library is the Freeman. The number of opportunities to just walk right out. It's a great deal about escape. And I didn't know if I had the guts to do it cry frankly. Picture of him coming into the building that morning, then he's got a really concentrated look on his face. He addressed with an extra layer or he had a sweater onto the one on the outside. So he was planning to go that day. Dard went outside for the windows are open in the fresh air blood through the sky was blue. And I ready to go to war with window. Joe tout. Honest to God. I just got tired of me. He was gone about ten minutes before anyone realized that came out and shouted Bundy escaped. Reporters. Ran to the courthouse in Aspen because this was such a big deal. Jumped out of this second story window at the front of the Pitkin county courthouse this morning. He was scheduled for a court appearance and apparently had been locked into the law library by sheriff's deputies at both ends of town. The sheriff's department put up roadblocks they were warning people. If you see this man, be sure and call the police when was seen. About ten thirty this morning. I'm going to jump from the window. Then he went up to the mountains and Aspen, and he broke into a cabin you stayed in the cabinet few days to Aspen to this car, which was unlocked and have keys and you've Nishin he drives through downtown Aspen tavern. It was a terrible driver, by the way, and there was a patrol car, and they see this car weaving. This is late. It must be drunk. Well, he wasn't drunk. It was Ted Bundy back. He goes. Here. You can see him grinning when he's been captured. He always acted like he pulled one over on on everybody. He was moved to a facility in Glenwood springs. Thous- one of the staff photographers at the Seattle times. I was given a chance to photograph is fellow named Ted. She had shackles and I can lay on the floor and photograph all kinds of different ways. He wanted to be seen. I'm Ted Bundy booking me captured. But in his own mind, I'm not gonna be here for long. South. There was a great in the ceiling that was not secured. There was a light fixture that was due to being welded. It had not been welded. When I visited him and Glenwood noticed that he had lost a lot of weight loss twenty twenty five pounds. I would think this would have come to the attention of jailers. Perhaps why is he doing this? His law books and assembled them more with some pillows to make it look as if there were body in the bed Bundy had succeeded in carving a big enough opening in the ceiling of his cell. He lost so much weight that he was able to wriggle through called through the ducting just like in the movie. Came down into the closet and jailer's apartment near the job. It wasn't there. And he put on civilian clothes astounding stuff, and he gets out into the night and these free again. They woke up in Glenwood springs discovered at Bundy headed escaped basically, twelve hours before. As you think it was possibly get out this way, we've eliminated what we felt that that time any possible escape route from the roof. However, we were wrong these keystone cops as the paper referred to them ask let this guy go again Garfield county, doing play them. We're looking everywhere trains buses, and this the usual thing I have no idea where he is. He should be very careful should check on their neighbors. Make sure their cars are secure. We're just looking I couldn't believe anybody. Let them escape twice. This is bad. Ted bundy's on the loose. And they have no idea where he is. Once he escaped he had an opportunity to go somewhere and disappear. But he couldn't even do that. He had to kill again. Bundy's escaped bordered on a Houdini escapade through a twelve inch by twelve inch hole in the ceiling. On the escaped. Detectives said it's gonna kill again. It's just a matter of time. We don't know where win but he will kill again. The we now have to wait. We now have to wait. Me chicago. Took a train offer stole a car. Drove south to Atlanta and trailways bus to Callahan's e. Florida State University printout has the campus will generally safe and secure that we've not unusual three o'clock in the morning to see people walking back and forth off cat felt safe. Coming. I had joined this forty Kyle mak- living at Cayo. My parents felt was my safer than to live in the dormitory being mega was a wonderful part of my life was just like living with forty friends. Early morning hours. So ten fifteen twenty three o'clock and three fifteen. There was an intruder in the cow mega sorority house. He had with him some sort of wooden club. Dave patrol that night with my partner, we approximate two blocks away from the Kyle mega house when we heard a call come on the radio. So we go straight there. As I stepped into the girls were yelling about stairs upstairs. And there was a lot of cry. And at the top of the stairs, girl. Name carry Chandler. And she was down on the floor. She was bleeding quite badly. Head injuries pretty much everybody. My face is broken. My front teeth were mostly gone after we're going to water it happened. She said there was a loud banging noise, then she made mention about her roommate, Kathy cloud. Her injuries were much more. Extensive jaws actually hanging off. I remember than laying on my bed and trying to talk, and I couldn't make any noise because my job was broken in three places decided to go ahead and start a room by run. Search a knock on the door from the moment. And then get a response. I open the door. And I went up pull the covers back, and I could see to strangle and beaten about the head. You could tell you that. So I stepped across the hallway and there was another body in the bed. Lisa leaving was being severely about the head and body. She also strangled and a bite. Mark was left her. Is so hard see those girls that. That. So sorry for their families. Tend to have insurance bad back. If you were here of this attack and the familiar with on these crimes, and you don't Colorado you biggest the same Rosen. His now on the run he's lost control. So he does something a little planning high risk taking on multiple women. These on a frenzy. After this horrendous attack Kyle mega he goes just about four or five blocks away ended up at a we call the Dunwoody residents, which was the residence of Cheryl Thomas, I was a student Florida State University, and I was a dance major. I woke up to this loud. Banging sound. Then we could hear Cheryl moaning whimpering, and I called Cheryl. We could hear the phone ringing because the wall was so thin, but she wasn't answering her phone, and that's what possessed me to call. The police department. Senate investigator immediately to that location. She went in and she found Cheryl Thomas on the floor in blood, and beaten, I learned that he came in through my kitchen window. He had worn a hose over his face. He pulled that off in that was dropped on my floor. If I did not have my neighbors calling. I don't think I would have survived. Oh my gosh. I mean, he left her for dead. I think it was a couple of days before I woke up, and I didn't know what had happened. I remember flashes. If things that basically what Cup intensive care. I could not get the funeral. I wanted to call the feelings, but. It wasn't fair. It wasn't right that that should happen to them. They were both beautiful wonderful people. I was shocked and wondering who he was and why he had done what he did is no reasoning behind it. I was asleep in my room and yet evil door and attack me remained worried and badly frightened scared. Just walk into class and keeping doors. Locked. I knew that I was dealing with a beast Damon playmate a personal commitment. This person would pay. I said we're taking vitam pressures from you Ted Bundy said you can't do that. I said, yes, I can I have a warrant to search your mouth. From New York. This is the ABC weekend. You four young women were beaten with a club and two of them were strangled to death last night by a man who found his victim sleeping in this sorority house. I was leaving the sorority house driving. And I got a call over radio that there's an investigator that wants to talk to me from out west I talked to the investigator, and I wrote down a name that he gave me that he thought maybe I should look into. That name was Ted Bundy. But obviously, I did think that was possible. The MO of Duchesne in a car didn't fit the MO of potentially objecting some person and taking them somewhere, perhaps in the woods, a murdering them that did Vitton. So what we had was fresh murder in a house. So I was somewhat dismissive. When I was at the morgue, and I looked at the bodies on Lisa lead. There was a fight left. That was very important. Person that Lisa Levy once policed. And then went back him a second town almost an executive cycle. I mean, it was done so perfectly that I just believed in my heart that it was a signature. About three weeks after the Cayo mega tax Intel has e. There comes word from Lake City. That's about ninety miles east of Tallahassee that junior high school student Kimberly Leach as disappeared during the middle of the smolder. It was raining drizzly, very dreary day went to are designated spot to meet up to go to our next class together. And she wasn't there. We knew something was wrong Kim was not a student to skip class to leave campus. I mean, we were twelve and she was very shy firefighter coming home. Walking across the campus Kimba on. He assumed that he was father police urging anyone with any information about Kimberly leads to contact them as soon as possible. In Pensacola a month after the car mega taxes. This man is arrested on a traffic. Stop the altar native stop because of the unusual behavior of Volkswagen. Hey, walked up to the vehicle. Within it crackles over the radio that this is a stolen vehicle. The officer and they have quite an encounter when this when I was putting place in the handcuff. So I'm he kicked my feet out from under me and struck me with a handcuff that have been placed on one risk kind. Of course, not meal feet. And that's started falling. Following out of pistol-whipping. He's got this round. Claim right here. That's where you hit him with that pistol barrel on he spends a couple of days stonewalling, the police who is this man. He refused to give his name to authorities. And then told his arresting officer many would probably get a promotion for nabbing him. They find out that his driver's licenses. And who is the car is driving doesn't belong to him. He's Justice mystery guy to people who want most know who he is our Tallahassee detective Steve Bodiford, Don patching the asset there with him. I gave me MS Reid. I asked him his name was. I started. Where'd you get VW thrown? Is it I stole from you. What about all these credit cards while I got him out of people that were next door in the maga- house. The mystery man will be kept behind bars for three more weeks before returning to court to win a replete officials say by then they hope to know who he is. He says to the police I'll tell you who I am just let me make a phone call, and he calls his old girlfriend blues club from the scribe telephone call. He said that he was in custody repeated over and over again that this was really going to be bad when it broke that it was not gonna break tomorrow morning in the press for this going to be really ugly. Finally tells officers I am Ted Bundy. His name is Theodore Bundy, and he's wanted for questioning and thirty six on day, one of the FBI's ten most one it is a custody in Pensacola and as a suspect in last month sexual when he was apprehended in custody. He would laugh and say, oh kin the evidence is there. You just couldn't find it. But I did. We had the bite marks that night from the more. I personally wouldn't sleep thinking. How can I get an impression from him? We can't enter his mouth. We can't remove evidence. Unless we have a search warrant. The search more in order to compare bundy's teeth to the bag Mark that was left only. I went late at night too. And I said tad. You're coming with me. We took him to my dentist's office. Now, he started a mmediately saying you can't do this. Can you can't do this without my attorney? I said, yes, I can. But I want you to listen carefully. Because it says from the judge that we can use force. He looked at me. You could see he resigned just his whole body guy. He sat down in the dental chair. Leaned back opened his mouth and said do what you have to do. Can you know, I'm not a violent person? About two months after she went missing, Kimberly. Their body was found. Been marred. She's been placed in Elaine to shed and the hog banned in this wanted area on one arm. Don't understand even when you hear the details. You can't comprehend it as being a twelve year old in this is your classmate who was just innocent grand jury issued a sealed indictment, which presumably names Bundy for the order of twelve year old Kimberly Diane leaked the evidence against him in the Kimberly Leach case ranged from eyewitness testimony people seeing him grabbing or fibers receipts location who's putting together pieces of puzzle where starting to put all this together. And we're tying it up, and what appears to be now. One bundle already two dozen law enforcement agencies told the Pensacola police that they want to talk with Bundy the walls are clearly closing in on Ted of indict it's all you're gonna get Ted Bundy, the master manipulator makes a move that. No one thought was cutting called witness. On Wednesday at winging marry me. She said, yes, I do ties are they what's going on. What we have here. Always say right on Tarita. For the Kyle mega-mergers. Grand jury in Tallahassee issued an indictment against Ted Bundy can consult the share of of Leon county with the cameras rolling the lights on read through the whole indictment. They had Robert founding charged. And of course, he kept in a rotating me. But I I just kept on. It was combination crime drama combination political theater. He's still look like the boy next door until that night that indictments were read. And that's when the devil came out. He looked each of us in the I this was the killer in that room. You could feel it. I'll plead not guilty right now and your grandeur. After Ted is charged with a murders and assaults that Florida state. You still all these cases not west clearly Florida has the best evidence in. So the prosecutors got together and said, look we're going to prosecute Ted Bundy from our perspective I wanted to get Bundy off the streets forever. The trial got off kind of slowly because Bundy was not cooperating with his attorneys. Ted Bundy wanted to be the one who is in Chartres, Ana I'm here today because I served my innocence. The judge allowed Ted Bundy to act as co counsel for defend that to be part of the faintest team is extraordinarily unusual. It's happened. Exactly. Once in my career that was Mr. Bundy he had gone to law school. This wasn't so far fetched for him to be in a courtroom. And so instead of being the guy in the orange jump. Suit who looked like that crazy serial killer suspect, he was the lawyer guy lawyer representing self has a fool for a client. And I want to caution you about that. But I'm not going to deny you that. Right. It's the ideal stage for Ted Bundy p self-assured he thinks he can manipulate and convince a jury through his charm and good looks that he couldn't have possibly committed these crimes. Every day during the trial courtroom was filled some reporters, but mostly spectators, a number of them were young women. Who are I think just drawn to the allure of seeing this guy on trial. Carol Boone was one of the constant personalities. Carol Boone actually met on the back in his Washington state days. So she knew him before any of these things happen. She was his advocate. She called him bunny. She was affected towards him literally sort of pulls her into his web convinces her. He's not guilty. Your conclusion is what that he did not commit the murders in Washington state that he did not abduct Carol ranch that he did not murder or of duct any of the other women in Utah that he did not kill Karen Campbell that he did not commit the crimes kind of mega in Lake City or on Dunwoody street, Tallahassee was a true believer. And she wanted everybody else to have. The same conviction that he was not guilty person. I called the Ray crew the Floresta university police department to kind of set the scene of what he saw whenever he got to the cow mega house up until then Mr. Bundy had led his lawyers cross examined the other witnesses. And for some reason Mr. bunion decided that he wanted to crossing salmon officer crew. Bunnies. Cross examination in my mind was the determining factor in the case. He asked him to describe indie tale this horrific crime scene. Describe what you saw. As much detail. Call. She was live basically faced down. There was considerable amount of love around her head mad at her hair on the walls. And there was a palpable reaction in the courtroom and amongst jury when he did that. What? Docking netted around her neck as I was describing her injuries in the blood his grip on the lectern tightened up. His breathing became shallow, and sped up and his eyes actually got a little bit larger. I had the distinct impression that he was precariously reliving it and enjoy it was so chilling. It was sickening. As the trial went into its final week Bundy claimed he didn't know how he got caught up in the web of crimes the week began with the prosecution introducing evidence to prove that Ted Bundy was the man seen by an eyewitness leaving the scene of the crime. That Ted bundy's hair matched hairs found in a penny. Hose mask that a bite. Mark left on one of the victims could have been made only by Ted Bundy. Evidence was both new and unorthodox and compelling in the trial. Defendant was cool and collected throughout most of the trial minutes before the verdict was returned Bundy told ABC news and a telephone interview that he was prepared for the worst. Verdicts. State of Florida versus. Defendant the door Monday as to council the indictment murder in the first degree of one Margaret Bowman guilty as charged. Ted's ultimately, convicted, basically all the charges. The jury recommends he gets death. The judging gives death was further ordered that on such scheduled that you'd be put today. After the Kyle mega trial ended. And he was convicted in those murders. He was then facing a new trial. The second trial was over the kidnapping and murder Kimberly Leach, which occurred in Lake City, Florida. It was a very compelling circumstantial evidence case, and in my opinion, much stronger than the case in Miami. And it did not surprise me at all the verticals guilty, then a Bill failures Bundy represented himself, and he called hero by and on Wednesday and had her test about how much she loved him. And so the out of the blue happens. He actually proposes to Carol booed in front of a camera. Mary. Lamour you on our now live at that time under Florida law. If you ask someone to marry the person says, yes, and there's a notary public there. It's a legal marriage. So. Signed sale limited and they married her there in the middle of piddly, folks. So now Ted Bundy is a convicted murderer. He's a new husband, and he is ineffective Dead Man Walking. I don't think anybody else that I've done some bad things. The question is what course and how? Most importantly wide. Interesting. People costly little ask me. Ted bundy's now on death row, and you have a whole range of people who still want to talk to him. We don't understand what makes a person like that click. What what drove him to do what he did. And so we won't to try to five figure that out. Ted Bundy, primarily talked about Keppel homicide detective from Seattle and Bill Hegg Meyer, an F B I profiler, we were interviewing serial killers. Rape. We're looking for understanding, and how you or someone like you got away with what you did. And he said, do you think I'm going to say I did anything to you? And I said, no, I don't think so at all I'm just going to ask you your perceptions on different cases heathen launches into conversations about quote, unquote, helping them with other serial killers. Go a hobby. In telling things about what might have done. He's actually telling on himself. Became clear to me. And he went back to his grime saints returning to see. But. I mentioned whatever drives to do that. Curiosity or desire? Make sure didn't leave it here. Or just some kind of thrill place will always be sacred to them thickly if he killed there. While Ted Bundy is on death row. He's even figured out a way to manipulate the system and possibly father a child you married. Carol Boone think the guards allow them to have an element of privacy to where he could have sexual intercourse with are. There were pictures at the time of Ted Bundy with Carol and child it it's clear. The photograph was taken on death row. On January twenty four th at seven AM. The death warrant will be in effect. Just a few days before his execution. He decides he's going to start confessing because he felt that. If he finally starts rolling out information, perhaps the state will keep him alive indefinitely. He became very desperate. And he wanted to offer. The authorities something called bones for time. Only one possession this information. That's just the way it is to do a proper job for everybody. We're going to I'm gonna eat some time. Bill Mayer was quite successful in getting Bundy to actually confess. What I was a little bit earlier. We came up with thirty which just trying to summarize what states they were in when periods of time, California or lush, I know Utah. Colorado Florida between nineteen. Three. Experts think the number is much higher than it could have been well over one hundred, but we'll never know you said much of these girls were good Christian or Jewish girls. He said whose parents bought them up to love and help other people when he said I exploited that it it's possession. I can just look in your eyes and their their last breath comes on that breath is mine and part of me forever. Talked about, you know, having sex with them while they were unconscious or having sex with them, which is called necrophilia after they've died. I'm not sure how many you to several the heads from the victims. And where do cO thirty. Oh, that's. He wrote down twelve you know, on a piece of paper while he was saying half dozen. He wrote twelve now all of a sudden he wants to tell the truth to be negotiating his life or the bodies of victims. This despicable. Pupa fifteen years. A couple of months is not going to make any difference. Don't go with a martyr. Don't negotiate with a killer. One of the things that had been traditionalist that death row inmates. Bent allowed last interview of their choosing bundy's had chosen duct James Dobson. I don't wanna die. I'm not gonna kiss you. Okay kitchen. Dr James Dobson was a crusader against pronography well-meaning decent people will condemn behavior. Of the Ted Bundy while they're walking path to a magazine rack full the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be Ted bundy's Dame option interview, Ted bundy's last que asp attempt at avoiding that they have penalty by becoming an anti pornography spokesperson Ted Bundy is to die at this point at seven AM tomorrow morning. It was really festive atmosphere there even Ted Bundy t shirts for sale. People chewing that we're seeing. Plight. Now, bundy's meeting with the ministering one of those deathrow behind me in a few minutes is head will be shaved as he's prepared for execution. We came in room. He was scared to. Just as why sheet he'd been shaving? He didn't look like the boy next door has head was completely bald. And I literally saw him these just collapse when he saw the chair knew he wasn't gonna get away. There was fear real fear Ted Bundy and a knowledge that he was going to die. The white smoke was assigned. That Florida's electric chair was powered up prison. Officials say the execution is on schedule. Komo. I said. Crawl over. Swish been thrown. Plate you say. Ellen. How wonder how many throats time around? Peter Bundy was executed at seven sixteen this foreign incur the electric chair toward state prison. At seven sixteen this morning. Bundy was indeed executed the hers with his remains pass by the street. I remember sitting on the sofa with my fiance and crying and feeling that Lisa and Margaret finally at peace. It's been thirty years since Ted bending was executed. We collectively still have this fascination about him an anniversary like that always provides an opportunity to kind of look back and see what the legacy of somebody was sack Ephron plays Ted Bundy, and in many ways, we are taking his kind of teen heartthrob image and turning that on its head. Understanding why women were so attracted to this charismatic killer through Zack's performance. At the center of the Ted Bundy story is the idea that you could have sat next to him that you could have been in a relationship with him. And yet had no idea of what he was up. There was the outside Bundy. And then there was the inside Bundy a whole different world right behind his eyes. I think the continuing fascination with Mr. Bundy results from a myth that he is charming intelligent individual. And that somehow that charm and intelligence was involved in the murder of these women. When in fact, he didn't charm these women, he tricked them. He attacked them bashed him in their head. And he killed him. Being a rare survivor of Ted Bundy, it makes me feel like I have to represent those women who did not survive. And I hope that I always can do that. Because I don't want him forgotten. Feel absolutely new animosity towards any other to death row. But. Still hate they had Mundy and eighty onto the day on. Die. Are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash twenty twenty. That's indeed dot com slash twenty twenty.