2 Episode results for "Carol Daniel"
All Together Now: Fridays with The Moth - Carol Daniel
"Hi, everyone, we want to tell you about one of our favorite podcasts. This is love from Radio Topa. They're doing something extra special in their fourth season, true stories about animals, and how they changed our lives from blackbird drew Lanham. Hope to take flight in South Carolina to explorer Jill Heiner ths fight for survival at the bottom of an iceberg. This is love tune in now wherever you listen or at this is love podcast. PODCAST DOT COM. The moth would like to thank our donors and sponsors for their generous support with your help. We're to continue our work. Virtually producing storytelling workshops and resources for students, educators and community organizations. Your support also allows us to continue to share stories through our radio, our podcast and our virtual shows, furthering our mission building empathy in the world, one story at a time from the entire moth community. We thank you. Welcome to altogether now Friday with the moth. I'm your host for this week Susanne Rust. At the mall we seek to elevate voices from the African American community. We recognize that in this moment it's important to look at all the ways we can do better. We all need to do better. This pursuit is especially urgent now. Want to dedicate all of our Friday podcasts in June those fighting for racial justice and equality, and to those willing to educate themselves some hard truths about this country. When we really listen to each other stories with an open mind and open heart, things can actually shift. Stories help us connect either because we relate to the teller infield seen. Or because we hear something that never occurred to us before. Something that makes us change our minds. Our story this week is from Carol Daniel at speaks to perceptions about race and the importance of celebrating your identity. Carol told this story to Saint Louis main stage with theme of the night was voices carry here's Carol live at the mall. So I? Was a junior in college when I got my first paying job in my field on the radio. This is not an intern ship. I'm getting a check. It was a country and Western radio station. And my job though it was only on, the weekends was to play the top country hits of the week. Each Sunday. It actually came on album prerecorded. So I had to take it out of the sleeve. And put it on the turntable just so. And put the needle down on side one caring not to scratch it. And then let park one play. My moment is coming now. Yes all the training. It's coming now. When side one would end I had to lift the needle. And here's my moment. I get to read the weather live for Jefferson City Missouri. Then, I played commercials, and while the commercials were playing I had to flip the album. Put it back down on the turntable. Put the needle back down now on side two. Part two of the top country hits of the week play. You know when you're getting a degree in communications or or broadcasting. They teach you all kinds of stuff, but they do not teach you how to flip album. In record time. Before the commercial break INS. My career would eventually bring me here to Saint Louis. The largest market I'd ever been in I was excited and I was nervous. And so I am trying to get to know the community. And so I'm going to every fundraiser and every event I can think of and after one of those events I promise you. It was actually here at the Sheldon in Saint Louis Missouri. A young man approached me outside on the sidewalk. He was black. And he said to me. I knew you were black. Now. Keep in mind. That I had heard pretty much my whole adult life. You sound white. I heard that I'd heard all. You sound white. You sound like a white girl. I'd heard that, but I had never ever heard. I knew you were black. So he tells me about this debate, apparently, that had been going on in Saint Louis. When I first started here. People told him oh no, she's white man. She's why she sounds why she's white. And he convinced having never met me. That? I was black. Well as it turns out, he was right. I am black. But this whole debate sort of messed with my head a little bit I thought here I am major market. Fantastic job of my dreams and people still don't know who I am. All of WHO I am. So I had. The secret plan this mission. I didn't tell anybody about it. I am going to start dropping hints on the air. So people so people will know who I am. And so my first hint is me discussing an article I'd read in Essence magazine. Anybody essence. Yes, you get it. Essence magazine of course targets, African American women, and so I think surely now they know they know they gotta know. Now debate, put to arrest. So I am now all about town and people are beginning to recognize me just from my voice. I'm at the Grocery store I'm chasing my kids at the Saint Louis Zoo yelling at them. People are recognizing my voice. I'm going to drop another hint on the air. I'm enjoying the secret mission. And so I describe trying to make my mother's Collard Greens. Boom. They gotTA know. They got to know now. That I'm a black woman? One day at one of these many events in education panel discussion after it's over I'm in a small group of people and we are talking. An. Older white gentleman walks up to me. And he says you speak well for your people. I feel what you just said. I could feel it in my stomach rising. To, my heart to my throat and I, said to him. Well what people are you referring to? Now I knew what he meant. All know what he meant. But I wanted him to say out of his mouth. I wanted him to say it. And he said it. That people. So now it's really gurgling. It is threatening to come spewing out of my mouth. I am embarrassed because people are standing around and they're hearing this and angry. How dare he diminish me? And I'm indignant, even and before I could say another word he says to me. Have you had any training? She, said. Well! I said Nope. My father speaks this way. My mother speaks this way and therefore Mississippi. My siblings all speak this way. God given talent no training, no classes none of that just little me. But I'm still feeling the secret mission. So I decided to engage in drop the MIC moment. Closer to Thanksgiving now when I dropped this hint and I describe again one of my mother's recipes. For cornbread dressing? And I took care on the air to say not bread, white bread, dressing, but corn bread dressing where you make the corn bread the night before, and then you soak it. Corn bread dressing I thought boom mic moment they got to know through I can go home now. They know on black on black now. And so. On the air. One day. I was just remembering this conversation. I had with these two women, these two petite older black women. Gray hair quaffed. One had a single strand of pearls. They, both had a touch of makeup. And one of them took me by each hand, and she pulled me close in the other leaned, and so she could hear. And, she said to me we are so proud of you. And, I got a lump in my throat. And I knew what they meant. There looking at me. This young. Black woman, making her mark on this big radio station in Saint Louis. But I'm looking at them. They have seen and experienced more than I will ever see or experience or half to see or experience. I'm looking at history. And its face and I can feel it. One day we're in this debate on the air. We were talking about was controversy. An organization one of many. Decided to walk out onto the highway. Not a road, but the interstate. And stopped the traffic and shut it down. They were protesting the lack of minority jobs in construction. and. One of the organizations that was involved was one I knew of from the time I lived in Kansas City Missouri, but my co host at the time had never heard of them, and so he was truly dismissive. And I was truly frustrated. And I'm thinking, this is a movement moment. This is a moment where you either educate. Or chastise or enlighten. Think do all three. But, I am also thinking. And I am also worried. I'm still new here. I'm still young I'm I'm a woman? I'm black and I'm pregnant. And I'm worried about the stereotype of the angry black woman, and and yet I'm also worried that I. don't speak up enough about black issues. I'm thinking all this. And dive right in. And I, said to him. You know they're in the yellow pages. You can look them up right now and call them. They've been around for fifty years. And so we took some calls and we ended that conversation. Turn the Mike off and left the studio. Now just a few weeks ago. Gentlemen came to our house, Russia service call to repair the windshield of my car. It's right in there in the driveway I met him outside. And he said to me I have a friend who lives over here and he told me that that news lady. Lives over here. Do you know her. And I said. Pausing! Feeling Pride and trepidation. And I said well I. I am that woman. You are. I'm Carol Daniel. And there it is again. He's looking at me. He sizing me up? He sized me up in my driveway. And I thought. Did he think I was white. Surprised now to find that I'm black. And I thought. The debate. Apparently the debate. Is still there. In some form or fashion. I am not at all sure I can ever really do anything about it. There's a lot more at stake. There's a lot to juggle in my life. There's a lot more weight in my life. I just try to not let it way me down. But this I know. I deserve to be here. I deserve. This job. And I don't have this job. Because I sound white. I have this job because I am good at what I do. Think! That was Carol Daniel. Carroll says that she is first and foremost a mother and wife. She and her husband Patrick of the proud and exhausted parents of two sons. Carol has been with Komo x the Voice of Saint Louis since nineteen, ninety five, and she's been widely recognized for her work on air and in the community. In her career, she's also been a campaign organizer, an Award Winning newspaper columnist and a substitute teacher. Carol's first book all I ever wanted relationships. Marriage family is out now. We started altogether now because we wanted to help. Foster dialogue between those of US quarantining. In these uncertain times, we want to continue to help facilitate these conversations, especially the hard ones. When was the time you felt the need to speak up? Why did it feel like to make that choice? How about a time when someone's perception of you conflicted with your own sense of self. In her story CAL talks about living in a movement moment. I'm recording this podcast just week after the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, and we are deep into another movement moment. It's a time when Carol says either educate chastise or enlighten. This is truly a time to speak out. On our website. We've listed some resources to help. Guide you through this current moment whether you're looking for places to donate to or looking from ocean support. Until next time from all of us here at the mall have a story worthy week. Susanne Rust is the moth senior curatorial producer editor of the Mahthir view interview series, and one of the hosts of the moths Friday podcast in addition to finding new voices and fresh stories for them off the stage Suzanne Creates playlists and helps curate special storytelling events podcast production by Julia per cell. Am Off podcast is presented by. The public radio exchange helping public radio more public at PRI DOT Org.
Who Crucified the Pastor ////// 298
"Welcome to true crime garage, wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick in this guy. This is a guy who thinks hand sanitizer is called ham sanitizer. Hello, captain. You can call me the captain, but my friends call me, Julius pepper would it's good to be seen in good to see you. I'm from Chicago. Today, we are featuring okay pills by the good, folks. Over anthem brewing company and Oklahoma City garage grade three and three quarter bottle caps out of five according to anthem brewing. Okay, pills is not the answer to all of your problems. But with a heavy dose of German pills ner mall to start and European hops to finish it may be close. And this week's beer was brought to us by these good folks right here. I up cheers to Rene from Olympia, Washington. The big we like you Jim to Jamie and rockfalls Illinois next up. We have Don in Northbridge, Massachusetts, also Massachusetts, we have Elena in eastern, and we have Ashley in I'm told it's pronounced taught in Massachusetts. We all how great I am with these Massachusetts towns, but cheers to the great state of Massachusetts. And the one that I'm gonna mess up big shut to Caroline and tuck Aho ten. See and last, but certainly not least big eskimo kisses too dainty Dana in Nome, Alaska. Thanks everybody for filling up the fridge for this week show. And also thank you to everyone for your five star reviews. Yeah. I was telling you off the record that everybody bonded t-shirt everybody that listen to the show on a t-shirt. We'd be multi multimillionaires and would never have to do another ad and how great would that be so good to the store page by t-shirt make us multimillionaires? They will never have to do another ad. And that is enough of the B is all right. Everybody gathered around grabbed share grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. As many as one thousand people packed into an Oklahoma church. Monday to say goodbye to a prominent member of the state's religious community. Pastor Carol Daniels was found dead inside a small town church late last month apparently the victim of violent attack. Daniel suffered gashes to her neck and throat plus stab wounds to other parts of her body Daniels traveled to the church every Sunday to deliver a sermon. Those who knew her are remembering the good she did in the community. She's always been same parse every time. You saw always very sweet just always love. God love people. Just the sweetest person you ever wanted to know, Bobby supportive. Always love people. I was willing to jump in. And tackle, you know, a task always wanted to help people that was her vision. Her mission was always wanted to help someone along the way during Monday's service. Mourners were asked to pray for whoever took Daniel's life. Some say the person responsible would have benefited from spending some time with the pastor. There's absolutely no logic other than that person. Didn't know the Lord Jesus Christ in if they said down to spend some time with pastor Daniels. They would have come to know him, and maybe made some other decisions attempt fails dollar reward has been offered for information leading to an arrest and conviction in the case. Ed Donahue, the Associated Press. Mother pastor Carol Daniels lived in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, her son, Alvin describes Carol as a loving mother someone who was always joking and always taking care of her family. She was in extremely giving mother in person back in two thousand and nine pastor. Carol Daniels was sixty one years old on Sunday, August twenty third she got her car and drove sixty miles or so south west to Anadarko, Oklahoma. This was her routine for about four or five years every week on Sundays driving sixty miles to Christ. Holy sanctified church and a run down area of Anadarko. She drove to the church to preach or if no one was there. She would stay and pray Anadarko. Oklahoma is described as a small town that in two thousand nine was economically depressed. About a half mile from the church is a neighborhood that was described as quote, a pretty high crime area troubled by drugs, including crack cocaine and also having a large transient population. Now on the other hand, we have this beautiful person. We have pastor. Carol Faye Daniels who is a beacon of light described as a champion for the helpless in the hopeless there to serve God and the community. She kept the doors open each Sunday morning waiting there with open arms, sometimes she would go out into the streets, offering food and goodwill to those who need it. Most ask anyone in the small town pastor Daniels was loved yet. It is a pretty small congregation. Right. Well, christ. Holy sanctified church was a tiny church if it was a small aging white building with a big black cross on the front. Now, they did have a marquee outside. Side, which listed the worship times as well. As pastor Daniels name and a simple message. This God loves you now on August. Twenty third two thousand nine pastor Daniels after making the long drive to the church. She was seen at ten AM outside of the church. Yes, she won't be discovered. And so about eleven forty because retired Bishop Sochi Wilson junior and his wife are going arrive at the church now, they get a little scared. So they don't go into the church, and they call law enforcement than law enforcement is going to find the pastor. So the way that this works is the Bishop Wilson and his wife they arrive around eleven forty a m at the church. Okay. And this is a fairly regular meeting. It didn't take place every Sunday. But this was a fairly regular thing for Bishop Wilson to meet pastor Daniels at the church, right? Okay. So. They pull up everything seems normal and they get to the front door. The problem is the front doors. Locked while. This is highly unusual. Pastor I'm sorry, Bishop Wilson couldn't recall another occasion where he arrived and the door was locked. So he uses his cane to knock on the door. But there's no answer. And Bishop Wilson said that the church was too quiet as if no one was home, and this was confusing to him and his wife because pastor Daniels car was out front. Now, he said that they shouted. They tapped on the windows, they even drove around the building hitting the car horn and still they got no response from anyone inside the church. Yeah. I mean, I think that this seems a little off. But think about it you go to a small church, the small building, you know, that your friend is supposed to be there you knock there's no answer and our cards there. That's all you need to really get spooked. Right. Well. This is also not a great area. I wanna point that out. They have a pretty low murder rate for that time in that that town, but this is not a great area. This is kind of a rundown side of town. And there's. To put it as as politely as I can there's there's some sketchy people in this neighborhood. Okay. So what happens here is he has his wife alert the police now, according to the incident report, the call that went out was for a welfare check at the church and regarding pastor Daniels. So at approximately twelve noon officer, Ashley Burs was dispatched to three zero five northeast first street upon arriving at twelve oh, two pm, he met with the reporting party Bishop Wilson and his wife, some of you may have noticed the very fast response time. We should note that the police station is less than one city block from the church officer Burs entered the building from the side door once inside he discovered the brutalised body of pastor Daniels. The officer immediately called. For backup. And within minutes officer bursts and two other officers cleared the building and secured the scene due to the heinous nature of the crime. The Oklahoma state bureau of investigations were called in five. Officers waited outside the church guarding the scene until the Oklahoma state bureau of investigations arrived on the scene now the state bureau of investigation the lead agency in the case tried to pull fingerprints or uncover even shred of DNA evidence at the scene. They got neither the early information that came out about them Vesa Gatien. Well, so there there were some details that were very publicly known very early on in the investigation and these come from statements of people working the case and people around the case. So I we have Cherokee Ballard is the state medical examiner's office spoke. Woman who said quote, a preliminary autopsy deemed Daniel's death a homicide caused by multiple sharp force injuries. Carol Daniels suffered numerous gashes to her neck and throat as well as a stab wounds to her chest back stomach and hands. Her body had been quote staged in an unnatural position. And then we have Dr William Manion forensic pathologists said Carol Daniels appeared to have been left in the form of a cross with both arms outstretched at her sides. Her head was nearly decapitated by the force of deep stabs to her neck and throat, according to local newspapers and their sources, the body of Carol Daniels was staged behind the church altar Daniels clothing had been removed possibly to hide evidence or as some kind of trophy from the grisly scene. Investigators say her killer. Methodically sprayed a dissolving chemical around her body in an effort to destroy DNA evidence at the crime scene, and then district attorney Brent burns said I've prosecuted over fifty murders. This is the most horrific crime scene I've ever witnessed some is sounds like it's premeditated. If the Brennan some kind of cleaning solution. Well, what's not clear there is it could have been something that was found inside the is self? Yeah. Very true. And then I do wanna offer up one final statement. This is from Jessica Brown state bureau of investigation spokeswoman which going forward just to save time. We will we will say oh SBI. She said authorities do not have any suspects and are offering a ten thousand dollar reward for information leading to an arrest and conviction. She says right now, we have more questions than answers the few answers. We do have we want to hold onto that. It might help us in the long run pastor. Carol Daniels funeral services were held August thirty first in Oklahoma City, and as you heard in the trailer there there's like a thousand people turned out for her funeral services. Her son Alvin Daniels said quote, all my mother wanted to do was preach and her funeral would be another chance for her to spread the word of God. So any first thoughts their captain regarding the early information that came out after the discovery of this horrific murder or even though it's a small congregation. The problem here with such a public figure is these pastors are hired to do funerals. They're hired to do, weddings. They normally council marriage council people outside their congregation, and then you take typical congregation assay only holds say one hundred people, but the congregation could be. Five hundred people or if you think about the congregation members that only show up on Easter or just Christmas. Now, you're talking about thousand people. So then you mentioned earlier, this is not a great area. So churches are known to take collections the evidence by taking the clothes the cleaning of the body or the cleaning solution and the manner in which body is found to me lens it to to be a a murder for a reason. But then her being a pastor and it being a church. You also wonder as this is the motive a burglary gone bad. Yeah. I mean, really when you start to think about this. You could have a bevy of motives here. And I want to be clear I've never been to Anadarko. It could be the most. Fabulous place in the world. I'm simply going off of what was stated in the newspapers the local newspapers at the time. I've been to Oklahoma City great city, but they were saying that this part of town is a high crime. Rate area. And like, you pointed out there, you wonder do we have a situation where this is either premeditated murder by somebody that knew her and in wanted her killed for whatever reason or two could this just been somebody looking to to make an easy robbery, and I say easy robbery because the way that they describe this scenario and the way that pastor Carol Daniels went about her business is that she would arrive at the church in the churches. Front door is unlocked in the doors are open to the public come in, you know, seek if you're seeking worship if you're seeking prayer if you're seeking advice from the great pastor, whatever our doors are open to you all walks of life. Do you have anything that we think is possible pieces of evidence? Well, we have a bunch of. Really interesting things here some of it being evidence and some of it being speculation. But before we get into that. I wanna point out something that we've already covered is what the the investigators were saying at the time that right now, we have more questions than we do have answers and answers that we have we want to hold onto for now because they could help us in the long run. And that's where I think that there's some of this questionable movements and behaviors that we should bring up here, you know, 'cause I've seen on some message boards in some websites where there is some speculation and people that that in a roundabout way suggests that they find the bishops story a little strange that just finding the locked door trying to get some kind of response from inside the church that this put him on high alert enough that he has his wife contact the local police. So I think we should dive into that real quick. Because what we have here is Bishop Wilson is an elderly gentleman. We already said he's using a cane at the time some people have questioned when the police arrive at the scene. Okay. So we have the front door. That's locked right? But we know from the incident report that the responding officer entered the church through a side door. Now, it's unclear on how the officer gained access to and through that side door because some people have suggested, well, why wouldn't the Bishop and his wife have tried the side door. You know hinting that it could have been unlocked. Right. And we don't know from the incident report one hundred percent, if they found that door to be unlocked, or here's the other scenario, there may have been obvious signs that somebody broke into that side door, right? And so not only would the officer be able to access the building from that side door. But that would also scare the the good Bishop in his wife to say, you know, we're not we're not twenty years old Honey and I'm not packing heat. Maybe we shouldn't head in there. We don't know what we're walking into right? So I think we should clearly point that out. I've also found one bit of interesting thought, and I and I'm I'm going to say that this is speculation regarding the side door because it couldn't find other stories to back. This up one source said that that door was removed as as evidence that at some point the investigators took that door off. Hinges and made it evidence and the speculation being that if this would have been some type of hate crime or some kind of satanic related crime that there may have been something drawn or painted on that door, and therefore they removed it because that's something only the killer would know, but part of my speculation on this is going a bit of the other direction. I wonder if the door was simply broken into. But again that was something that the killer would know that one the door was broken into and in the possible method of breaking into that door as well. And that could be another good reason for removing it one thing that we didn't get to yet. Either captain is okay. So you have what the papers are calling the posing of the body. And we know that the we know that passer Daniels was stripped nude the clothing her clothing was not found at the scene. We know that a cleaning agent or some type of cleaning solution chemicals were dumped on the body. But on top of that some of her hair was burned. And some of the articles that you read will state that it was completely burned off that they burnt off her hair. If you read the autopsy, they burn off a good majority of her hair, but she still had hair when she was found. So here's one very strain. It is very. Strange. It's what I'm getting at here is it seems like we have a situation where she's brutally attacked, and I'm not going to go through the autopsy from top to bottom in this situation. Just trust me. In my words, when I say, this was a vicious attack. And I think the captain was getting to something there that that could very likely be correct. That this could be premeditated. And it could be somebody that either wanted to seek revenge against the goodpastor or had it out for her for some reason that if when we talk about overkill, if you wanna go find the autopsy and read it yourself, you can what you will find there is obvious signs of overkill, and then on top of that the killer took the time to confuse the scene to do things at the scene of the crime and had some time there. They didn't just flee didn't kill and flee. Whoever did this they stayed with the body. For a little bit of time. All right. Well, let's go over the situation. It's t shirt time. The cabs are here. This is what doesn't make sense to me. If that door has some kind of drawing on it. Maybe some symbolism than is the taking of the close as that symbolism is the burning of the hair some kind of symbolism the way the body is laid out is that some kind of symbolism. We we've seen this and other cases where the neck the neck injuries are so deep and almost caused causes decapitation is are all these things some kind of symbolism. Okay. So I do have some possible evidence. But I also have some really good thoughts on all of that. When you wanna hit I well, let's start with evidence. And we'll just keep those in the back of our thoughts. Okay. So first we have a possible I witness a man claimed he saw the murder suss. Specht leaving the church. This is Robert Richardson said he was across the street from the church and Anadarko where the murder took place. Robert said, quote, this guy was coming out. He was covered in blood. He had a ski mask on. He had a knife in his hand. And it was dripping blood. Richardson said that he was at a car wash. So there's a car wash across the street from this church. And this is where he says that he was when he saw the man emerged from the Christ. Holy sanctified church. He said it wasn't until a few hours later that he found out what had actually happened. He said, quote, a friend of mine said pastor Daniels got killed and that just hurt me to my heart. That was my pastor Richardson said Richardson said he didn't immediately go to police right away because he was drinking at the time when he saw them in and he didn't want police to question his credibility. However Richardson said he eventually went to police and investigators and told them what had happened and they questioned him. It's reported that Robert Richardson is homeless and was possibly living behind that actual car wash at the time. Right neighbor said he makes a living doing odd jobs. Around town Richardson says his story is the truth. But there are contradictions in Richardson story does he have a a good look at this individual does. He think it's a female or male. Does he think it's a white man are black band? Well, that's where we have some problems with Richardson story. So he was interviewed by local news by multiple local news stations, right? And in these published reports he gives a different story. Right. So in one report he says that the blood-soaked suspect was black and bald headed, but then he tells news nine that. The suspect was wearing a ski mask price. Oh, you wouldn't be able to tell onto the other right? If the suspect had hair or not, that's that's the my pet peeve is when somebody says this one time in college we had this guy that. Came up, and he was yelling at us because we're partying. And he said, look, I got some friends over and now we're having conversation downstairs, and we're trying to sleep. Like, which one is it. Right. It can't be both at the same time. Well, I tell you what I don't believe Robert Richardson story, but I do was makes you suspicious of him. Right. Well, I do like the kind of his Gibb because it was presented to them that the they're like, hey, there's contradictions in these stories that you're saying, and he says if anyone doesn't want to believe me, they can just go about their business. So here's here's the big problem with his statement, not only do they not match up. But what I just read from our portions taken from a new story in that particular news story, it almost makes it sound. Like, he gave this statement to police later that day the day of the murder or the night of the murder or maybe even the next day. But the problem with that is we know this now to not be true. So this does not add to the credibility of this gentleman. It just takes away from it. So not only does his story is it different depending on who he's talking to. But he didn't immediately go to police anytime. And I know we have a statement saying, hey, I was drinking. But from the information that I could find he didn't go to police from anywhere until seven days to as many as eleven days after the murder, and the reason why the stories changing because he might not remember well, and it's it's difficult. Narrow down exactly when he went to police because both the Anadarko police and be I they refused to comment publicly on Mr. Richardson statement, or if they even spoke with him at all. So the first time I could find Mr. Richardson popping up in the media was already after the reward money was announced which was initially ten thousand dollars and one week later was bumped up to fifteen thousand dollars. So you can take that for what you will that's likely not evidence. Second police did recover video surveillance footage from a convenience store. Adjacent to the church this footage shows pastor Daniels driving up in front of the church on Broadway to Parker car at ten AM. Now back in two thousand and nine police were pretty tight lipped about what was on or not on that camera footage for the record. This is footage from two cameras both keep in mind a distance away. But one captures kind of a side view of the front of the church and the other camera is facing the other direction. Now, the third possible thing we could talk about in relationship to evidence is the murder weapon. We know by the autopsy findings that the murder was committed using sharp force, so very likely a knife. And judging by the report, I read likely a large one this knife was not found at the scene. So no murder weapon left at the scene. What they did. Find was a large knife reported to be six to ten inches in length. Recovered from across the street from the church at that car wash that we've already mentioned now, unfortunately, we now know that this knife was eliminated. So this this knife was not the murder weapon. I don't know what cleared that knife. But it's been publicly stated that that was eliminated as awesome or to right. But this goes along with the reports that this is a rough area when you're finding nine. Lives randomly at the car wash. Right. Whether it's a trail of your kids, muddy footprints or a pile of dishes after your first backyard barbecue of the season, nothing cleans like the spring sense from grove grove delivers natural brands that are healthier for you and the planet like MRs Myers, seven generation, Pertz bees and grove straight to your doorstep. Yeah. Me and the Colonel we just became VIP members. And we couldn't be happier. That's right. Because grove sells the products we were already using these are great products, and we signed up because we were getting some free gifts from them as well. And you can when you sign up with grove right now when you play your first order of twenty dollars or more new customers will get a free cleaning set, which includes MRs Myers spring hand soap dish, soap and multi surface spray available and peony lilac or meant. As well as a grove collaborative cleaning caddy and walnut. Scrubber sponges try grove now before this exclusive spring offer runs out. For a limited time, our listeners get a three piece cleaning set from MRs Myers, spring sense of free sixty day VIP membership and surprise bonus gift when you sign up and place an order of twenty dollars or more at grove dot co slash garage. That's grove dot co slash garage, grove dot CO slash garage. Casper is asleep brand that continues to revolutionize its line of products to create exceptionally comfortable sleep experience one night at a time with three mattress models. The regional casper the wave and that central casper mattress or perfectly designed to soothe in Crato, your natural geometry, not to mention the breathable design helps you sleep cool and regulate your body temperature throughout the night as delivered right to your door in a small. How did they do? That size box with free shipping and returns and the US and Canada. But the best part is you can be sure of your purchase with Casper's hundred night risk-free sleep on trial after all you spend one third of your life sleeping. So should he be comfortable? I love my casper mattress. And I believe you will too. It showed up to my door and box. I thought there is no way mattress inside there. I sleep way better. I don't wake up all sticky and hot and my back fills better. So why not give it a try give fifty dollars towards slick mattresses by visiting casper dot com slash garage and using garage at checkout. That's casper dot com slash garage. Offer code garage for fifty dollars off your mattress. Purchase terms and conditions apply. All right. We are back. Cheers meats, and before we get into it. Too much here. Captain, a belated birthday happy belated birthday to you. There's a cheers all right through the glass at before twenty men while we're on the topic of items that were not found at the crime scene. We have to keep in mind that someone stripped Carol Daniels after killing her the pastor's clothes were taken from the scene. So some have suggested that this could mean one or two of the following that either one this was a sexually motivated crime to the clothing was taken as a trophy. This would be possibly because the offender is a serial killer or maybe a satanist and three the clothing was taken to eliminate evidence, and or confuse the crime scene. Yeah. Just seems like what the cleaning solution that maybe the clothes were. Taken to get rid of evidence. I think that's the most likely scenario regarding sexually motivated crime. There was no there was no sexual assault believed to have taken place during the commission of this murder. And I understand that it doesn't have to that does not have to occur for to be a sexually motivated crime. But I'm with you, captain, it seems to me if they're gonna go to if the killer is going to go to the lengths of spending time at the crime scene to remove the victim's clothing, then they're very likely doing that to eliminate evidence. And or confused the crime scene now regarding the report of the body being posed, according to investigators working the case, there are only three reasons passer Daniels body would have been posed in such a way one it was a crime of sexual fantasy slash frustration. This is the most common reason to find a body posed section. Fantasy or to give the killer. Sexual pleasure to it was done out of anger in retaliation. Where someone does does this to get back at the victim? And to further degrade them, even after death three. It was done with the intention of confusing. Investigators to make the scene look like one thing when it's actually about something else knowing which can give investigators insight to the killer. It is a key piece of evidence. Only the killer would know which would be critical during interogations now online sleuth IRS. Some have added a fourth possibility pastor Daniels was killed as a religious statement. And her body was posed to serve as some kind of biblical Tableau. The interesting thing here is out of all of those scenarios. We have we have some that line up with the possibility. In regards to removing the clothing as well and one of those being to confuse the investigators to confuse the crime scene. And I think that could be exactly what we have here. But I think what we what we've not got into is a fifth possibility. Okay. So we have an expert who who was active in this case, and he has written dozens of books on the many facets of homicides, including an eight hundred page taxed that is widely known as the quote bible of homicide investigations. And fact copies of this sits on detective desk across the nation. This is very popular textbook. Now, this expert wouldn't talk specifically about pastor Daniels case, but did discuss some of the clues left at the scene and regarding the posing of her body. He says, quote if. The body was posed. I can stay unequivocally. It's extremely rare circumstances. He says less than one percent of all homicides present sexually posed victims. So keeping that in mind, it seems more likely that maybe she wasn't posed at all that the body may have just been in that manner left in that manner for whatever reason just by happenstance, and that people have speculated that she was posed. And I think that's that's probably a pretty good conclusion to come to in this without knowing for certain because you would have situation where we have a murdered pastor found inside of a church, and if she's found lying on her back with her arms spread out it may seem that somebody put her in that manner when after undressing her in in do. Doing confusing the crime scene that she was just left that way that it was not intentional the way that she was found. It's it's weird and and this door. I mean, this perpetrator this manure soaked weighing maggot did he did he do a drawing on the door or not we well, we don't know? And to be honest with you, I don't I could not confirm. If that story is in fact, true that they the investigators actually removed the door. So without being able to confirm that I wanted to make sure we included it because I find it to be interesting. An interesting portion of the investigation if it did occur, but without knowing that they live right without even knowing that it did happen. It's tough to speculate. Why they would have would have removed it. Yeah. You would think at some point. Maybe they even release the drawing to see if anybody recognized that kind of. Artwork anywhere. But you would think that if there's some kind of satanic drawing that that leans all the other evidence towards that. But again is that to throw people off the scent, or is that some legitimate piece of evidence, we should be looking at well, my whole thing regarding that door is I lean toward the thought if it was removed that it was removed because of the method of how they they got in through the door bright killer through the door less likely than a drawing because I think that this. This investigation has had it's it's it's been a roller coaster ride their times when it pops back into the media, and it seems to be a very active investigation. I think that it some point if there was a drawing they would say there was a drawing they wouldn't tell us what the drawing was or go into detail about it. But I think they could clear that up because we have the investigators. Publicly speculating onto as to the reasons why the clothing was removed, and if the body was posed, so if there was some type of drawing graffiti that was left on that door. I think they would know why the clothing was removed and the motivation behind the murder, and maybe the break in altogether to you fill that the removing of the clothes is more towards removing evidence. One hundred percent like sexual right? One hundred percent. I think that the clothing was removed because of evidence I think there's a decent chance that if a large knife was used in the commission of this murder. We've talked about this many times before a knife is a dangerous weapon. Not only for the victim. But for the offender because a lot of times the offender will injure themselves in the course of the attack as well. What if they if they bled onto her clothes or suspected that? They may have they removing those clothes would be key. Then dumping the the chemical agent on the body to to further degrade any possible evidence and the burning of the hair, it's almost to me seems to be very clearly somebody taking a lot of effort to write but who cover up the crime and into hide evidence. Because if you kinda picture, this you what I try to do sometimes as picture how I think this could have went down. So let's pretend that the door the side door was in fact, somebody broke into it. Right. It's very likely that if somebody went in there with the intention of murder, whether it be for revenge or religious purposes, or whatever if they went in there to the church with the purpose of murder or robbery that led to murder. Uh-huh. We know that the front door was found. Locked is very likely. We know that that she arrived at her normal time. It's very likely she would have entered the church through that front door the Bishop was expecting to find the front door unlocked. It was only when he founded locked he was alerted that something might be going on. I then think that he noticed that the side door was obviously broken into. And I think what could have happened here is we may have in a killer that knew she would be alone in the church at that time and broke into the church earlier much like we had the MRI beavers case where the killer broke into the church before the victim arrive, right? She's now in the church, the Fender attack cer- kills her locks the front door to buy time to to do all these other methods of the clothing the cleaning agent the burning of. The hair to remove evidence from the crime scene. Why again you go back to the knife being dangerous to the victim? But also dangerous to the murderer. So if the murderer bleeds onto the victims close the now, a give reason to remove the clothes, and we'll give reason to remove the panties. And I'm going to stick on that for Greg come back to that. But also, maybe there was blood and the hair therefore, you dump a cleaning agent, you then burn the hair. Now, you trying to burn evidence because I would say the removing of the close is to cover evidence. But the fact that her underwear was taken. To me that leans sexual that this guy is going to go home, and, you know, become a sausage milk. But. The the Braun panties being taken to me. That's that's certainly a possibility. I mean be down there. There are other individuals that the do that exact thing. Because like I said I mean, but we don't know what they're trying to cover up. Right. We don't know why they're taking the clothes because it's possible that they bled on her or or whatever. And then just thought well, if I'm going to take the close to cover up evidence, I take all the clothes, right? And in potentially confused the crime scene. Yeah. Confused, the investigators as to what it is at they're actually looking at. And I think that whoever did this. From from the evidence that's been made public. Yeah. If that was their intention, they did a good job because it doesn't appear the that. Well, as of two thousand and nine I will say it didn't appear that the investigators at the time had a clear understanding of what the motive was behind this murder. Yeah. And one thing I do want to point out though, too. Is that Carol Daniels? She put up one hell of a fight one hell of a struggle. She was fighting for her life and defended herself to the best of her ability. And I say that because I think that that's where the offender that the killer may have thought that there's a there's a potential for a lot of evidence that they could have left behind because the struggle was so was such such a tough one. And so you wonder where you go. Okay. Is this just some really sick individual? That's going to take all of the clothing for whatever purposes later, or is this someone that's just really careful they in that moment is able to be overly cautious. I've already risked risked further detection by staying here longer to remove this piece in that piece. Why not just take it? All. All so I don't have to get home in worry what they're going to find at the crime scene. Yeah. Which makes us think that is premeditation of premeditation than it somebody that she knew I again, we see that a lot of times when there's a knife involved in especially. Like take the OJ Simpson trial, or though J Simpson case, and almost decapitation and a lot of people point that out to be some kind of rage gin making it personal. This is very difficult. If if you really wanted to okay, let's pretend that this is a premeditated murder or premeditated crime that that the offender new would lead to a murder that you could really I believe narrow your suss suspect pull significant because that would it would have to be somebody that either a new her routine and knew what would be going on that day or be had a very good understanding of that church and its operations in and how many people were coming in and out at that time of day was difficult to know when they get collections and when they. 'cause sometimes churches will get collections for multiple days, and then do a deposit, and then so then you wonder. Was there a big donation of of some kind that she told somebody about and they went all while you needed deposit that. And then she goes, oh, well, we haven't deposited yet. And that becomes your motivation. So here's some speculation that I put in to this. If it were not, I don't know the workings of the situation, but the retired Bishop that showed up that day. My first thought it had he not been retired and knowing that this was a regular meeting, but it didn't occur every Sunday. Right. My first thought was is that when pastor Daniels is supposed to turn over monies to the Bishop and that somebody would have known that about the church and thought well, this is win. The this is win the money is at its highest right before it's going to be turned in. Right. So that's the most opportune time if I'm looking for the most amount of money with him. Retired. I don't know that that would have been the situation, but this was some kind of regular scheduled meeting. Right. So I do want to circle back to Robert Richardson who we discussed earlier he is also known as the Florida kid for those of you that like nicknames. This is the man who came forward several days after pastor Daniels. Murder to informed police that he had seen the killer leaving the church covered in blood. He did add some pieces to the story Richardson also said that someone had been prowling around the church in the days before the crime. And that he in fact, warned pastor Daniels about this. Okay. I'll go into this seems like. A lot of details of the day of and days before and that seems a little suspicious to me. Like, why wouldn't he come forward earlier? That's why I really suspect that Richardson was just looking for the reward money. Okay. And what I mean that he's involved in. I think I think this is a dude that probably has fallen on hard times. And he saw this in in probably wanted to help and some way, but he saw this or heard this on the street and heard that there was a large reward and thought, you know, what I'll I'm going to go up and say that I saw somebody running from the church, and then when they catch this person months from now they're going to have to give me the reward right because I came forward, and I gave him what I'm claiming. I saw now regarding Robert Richardson, many people believe that Richardson himself is a strong suspect. Yeah, go he seems like a real turtle Boehner. So. Well, another potential suspect is one Michael Hinton junior. Mister hin has a history of drug abuse and a pass conviction for a violent crime. This is first degree rape of a minor under fourteen years old now his connection to the cases. This Hinton's mother was a co-founder of Christ. Holy sanctified church and was a close friend of pastor Daniels. Some have speculated that after his mother passed away that she may have left the bulk of her estate to pastor Daniels, and or the church possibly enraging her son. Right. But I do want to be very very clear about this next point. No, solid evidence of this has ever been uncovered. This is just spirit pure speculation. Right. Nobody has there's no paper trail to suggest that his mother did. In fact, leave money to Daniels or to the church, and while we're on the topic about the, you know, the church in its money. If if you didn't know the church by just based off of appearance in in the location, does not a church that I would into would be holding a lot of money. Not. No, okay. One of the more popular online theories states that pastor Daniels was murdered as some kind of work of a serial killer. And this the online theory is very specific serial killer, Israel Keyes. Oh, yeah. So according to keys, he committed crimes all over the United States, and he explained to law enforcement after he was caught his work as a construction contractor enabled him to move around frequently without suspicion keys would monitor natural disasters like floods tornadoes and hurricanes and then respond to the affected areas to bid on jobs to bid on work. Right. Just three months before pastor Daniels. Murder. Anadarko was hit. By a series of heavy storms and tornadoes. So this could certainly have provided keys with a reason to be in the area also worth noting though keys was reported to have several satanic themed tattoos. So the I mean, that's a very interesting theory there he hit, and then we know keys as a giant turtle Boehner's anyways. So well, and he also admittedly used chemicals at crime scenes to destroy potential forensic evidence. Now have they done any DNA testing fingerprints because his his I'm assuming his DNA is down the system. Well, remember, oh, S B I. They couldn't find any fingerprints or DNA at the scene. They were searching for those two items. And they they very quickly figured out that they didn't have either of that again. Again, another reason why they'd take the door though. Right. Because if you have all the all the clothes are gone Harris, burnt, you know, there's cleaning solution all over the body. Then you go. Okay. Well, we know they went through this door. So let's just take the door and test every part of it. And you know, that's frustrating. So one issue I have to present regarding keys as as a good suspect. Yeah. Okay. So let's keep in mind. First of all. What is the math that? He was there at that time in this particular individual was killed, and he he didn't know this victim, right? There's nothing to suggest that he knew her knew the area knew the church, but he's a monster mice. Yes. He's definitely a monster. But but right there that's quite the stretch already. Then on top of that keys seems to only have targeted white victims and in in his cases, the female victims were violently sexually assaulted. Yeah. And his crimes were largely sexually motivated, and none of keys known crimes bear any sort of religious hallmark either. So it doesn't seem to fit his MO. Right. But but I think any killer that has. A bigger number of kills. There's going to be some outliers so possibly then again, then it's like while the taking of the clothes possibly could become sexual at that point some other newsworthy items regarding this case, I found this particularly interesting one Reverend said that the murder helped to motivate him to get a concealed carry license. Reverend Brian ball says he sometimes carries his weapon during his sermons and regularly carries. When he is alone at the church in which he works and depends on how what kind of church, you're the pastor of. But I, but I think yeah. If you're going into buildings that are as big Amin, this church was small, but thing about some of the churches that these passers priests have to go into by themselves, and there's multiple and translate as and. Exits wait exit ways, and there's probably not a ton of security guards all the time. Probably more, you know, security guards, the bigger churches during business hours there might be a couple, but they're they're they're a lot by themselves alone. Well, and you have several different kinds of churches some that are in troubled areas in they locked their doors and some that are in trouble areas in they leave the doors open to because they're there for the community. Right. So that really puts someone who's really just trying to do really good work as a potential victim when anybody could just walk through that door and be one on one with somebody. I actually I applaud this move. I think that you know, you say what it depends on what kind of church that you're running whether you should conceal and carry or not I think I think in American church, you can see is a bad joke. But as you know, because if you go to. Optus church. They're up and singing. And and vibrant, you know. And if you go to like, a Catholic church they're kind of like kneeling sitting in kinda boring. It was a bad joke. Well, some other newsworthy items since we have the church this actual church was torn down in two thousand ten just months after the murder and in its place a memorial to pastor Daniels was put up we should also note that the F B I got involved almost immediately in this case. And then we have Dr Cooley Trant. And I I don't know if I'm saying the name correctly, my my handwriting scribbled on this note here. This is the doctor that performed the autopsy this individuals fired and actually sued in two thousand and ten not in relation to this crime not in relation to this case. But I think it's something to say the name was. Cooley Trant to it looks like a wrote T R A N T. Okay. Not coli. Malik coli. Malik. No. And then we have this situation, which I find incredibly interesting in two thousand twelve Daniel's mother. Carol Daniel's mother who was then eighty five years young. God bless her Edda Dunlap said one thing that has not been discussed is that her daughter's purse and briefcase were missing from the church Dunlap said that she has heard nothing from law enforcement and several months quote. I haven't heard a thing not one single thing. She said, no one seems to be doing anything. And this is this too is interesting Dunlap said the only clue that her daughter provided before her death was that two people would often come to the church when she was there, quote, two men. She said what come to her church? Search all of the time. One would sit in the back and one would go to the piano, and she told them that they would have to be saved or they could not come and play the piano anymore. Now, she goes on to say that she never asked her daughter, what the names were of these individuals, and she says to this very day. It really bothers her. And she says, I often worry and wonder about those two people. She did go on to say in the same interview that she is confident that the crime will eventually be solved. She says she's got a feeling that the person is going to come forward and confess at some point. Why think that her gut feeling I think for whatever reason I think the universe gives us answers sometimes that we need, and this gut feeling that these two boys that were coming into the church and Porton means something, but also. I think the gut feeling that she had that this will be solved the formation that came out in two thousand twelve kind of points to this idea that it's going to be solved at some point. Yes. So there's been a lot of things that have come about in this case since two thousand twelve since that interview with with Daniel's mother, and the first thing is that investigators eventually did release the surveillance video to the public, which does show something suspicious. The security cameras at the nearby convenience store captured a blurry white figure leaving the vicinity of the church at the time of the crime. Now, I wanna be clear about something when we say blurry white figure I've watched this video from time, you know, multiple times it's a good distance away. It's almost like you're seeing like a like a ghost or something. Like, it's you know, if picture picture, you're watching something in black and white and all you. You can tell is that there's something lighter than its surroundings in. It's a human form moving. So you're not you're not getting any description of this individual of the person leaving the church. So it's very low quality quality video this prevented investigators from making any type of benefit on who this person is. But what's interesting is what the video does show what you can depict from the video. And that is that there are several people out on the streets in nearby when this person is fleeing the area, right? So you have several potential witnesses that were captured by the cameras now in these these people are closer and much more detectable where they may have been able to identify some of these people and then speak with them. Yeah. What's sad is an ally. These areas that have high. Crime the people don't trust the cops. So they don't come forward with information. So what we end up learning from this is that according to the district attorney, he says, quote, there are a lot of people out at that time. Logic says somebody saw something well it took a long time. But people started to talk and some of them were talking to the authorities. The DA says, quote, they were hearing the scuttle butt around town. They know who did this people were saying it was too people. DA hick says the two in question were violent drug dealers and people were afraid to come forward. Hick says investigators considered several motives through the years, eventually they were calling it a foiled robbery where the suspects likely looking for drug money came into the church and killed Daniels and two thousand fifteen. A woman offered a potential break in the case. She actually witnessed a suspect with a black blouse and a knife that had blood on it. And it was around the time of pastor Daniels. Murder. DA hick says the woman led investigators to shed located behind a home in Anadarko. She advised that those items were taken into the shed and burned. Okay. So we have a witness comes forward and says I saw somebody that should be suspected of this crime. Right. Saw them with the murder weapon. Saul them with items that I believe were taken from the church, and then burned in the shed. She shows the investigators where the shed is the problem is we're now six years later. We're now six years after the fact, they searched that shed they can't come up with any evidence from that shed to present to build a case against this individual. So not only did that search come up. Empty the woman the witness passed away just days later after giving investigators that information now, I believe that she was able to name the suspect. It wasn't just ice. All somebody that looked like this going in the shed. I believe she was able to name them because we do have a report the says, the B I polygraphed several witnesses and the suspects themselves and neither offered a confession. So DA hick says it seems in regarding this case, it seems like every time we take a step forward. We're taking two steps back in two thousand seventeen at the request of DA Hicks, a multi county grand jury took up the case. But then another setback the main suspect who was Denise Darnell Cooper died of cancer before grand. Juries could hear her testimony Hicks knew he wouldn't. Get an indictment and now they would have to find another avenue to prosecute suspect. Number two at the proceedings. Other possible witnesses were called this included. Then prisoner Kevin may Han. But he like others before him offered nothing of value. Now, I wonder why he specifically mentioned. I wonder if he's actually suspect number two. Yeah. Because they never name well to where I could find suspect number two, but they specifically mentioned him as possible witness was called before the grand jury. He said nothing to them or he's a prisoner and format, right? Yeah. Could be a jailhouse snitch or something. Right. Right. So when asked when the DA was asked he did say, he thinks this cold case will be solved at some point Hicks said, quote, I look at it this way it is solved. My question is will we be able to bring Justice? Bring it to Justice. And he says I'm not going to stop trying the DA's task force. Investigators are still working the case all those who loved Carol Daniels are still searching for Justice. Anyone with information is asked to call the B. I tip line at one eight hundred five two two eight zero one seven or Email tips at OS B. I dot ok dot gov and a quick quote from Bishop Wilson, quote, I want them to remember Carol was a very faithful lady, and she was a very sweet lady, and she's somebody everybody should have gotten to know. I just remember a very ambitious sweet lady. This week. We have some recommended listening for everybody out there because when we were doing research for this case this week's case, it reminded us of three different cases that we've covered before. And I think that you'll find some very interesting similarities between those three cases in this. One. One is Missy beavers case. Also, we have Todd Cole hep the real estate serial killer. And we also have the case called the devil. Did it and those are from two thousand eighteen and from two thousand seventeen for our back catalogue download the Stitcher app for free. And you can listen to episode one to episode now offer free on the Stitcher app. And check out on Citra premium. Our weekly show called off the record where we do. Updates and talk about true crime, documentaries and a bunch of nonsense. Yes. It's a show about nothing. Also, we wanna give a shout out to our friends at looney in ru. And I wanna make sure I spell that. In case. I'm saying it wrong. It's L U N. I and all our oh looney and rue they make fantastic dog. Collars, fantastic dog leashes. You'll want to check them out. If you are a pet owner, and they have provided us with a code to pass along use code garage. Twenty for twenty percent off to everyone that wants to pick up one of their finely crafted dog collars, yet checkout looney and ru dot com, or I will post a picture of these awesome collars on our Instagram page, and we can't wait for you to come back and join us next week until then be good be kind in don't litter.