20 Episode results for "Carlin"
Moment of the Day (06/10/19)
"Right. So some studio changes with the decor, courtesy of c m b the guys had some thoughts and virtual, Chris Carlin made his presence felt on the show what they do in, in the course of video streaming, the show is deconstructed this studio and they take the sign off the front because God forbid, you know, you could promote that at all right? God forbid, anybody would see that got Obama and they using our studio. Right. Which is fine. Everybody studio. But that's they take that sign off. They leave it there. They don't put it back. And then when out walked in this morning, there's these rolling posters that they put up to block the other boomer and geo. Pucker up. Hey calm down. It's five want to do your thing. Do your thing, but clean up afterwards yourself. Scariest? There you go moment of the day, little rude by Carlin. Yeah. I mean seriously. I mean, could he could have said he was sorry for crying out loud? But I guess it was there was some behind the scenes apologies that were going. Oh, yeah. Mark chernoff sent out fired off an Email. Is that true clean up your studio, then Mr. Carlin, and I discussed I short of. We didn't tattle on him. We just titled on the rate just on the air. Yeah. Day. It's our studio. Take care of her to you don't. And if you don't take care of it. You're not going to be in here. Also Bart Scott leaves his sodas a lot. He does. You know he's. He's a flavored water guy. Is he like a flavored sparkling water? Okay. Into that, too. He just leaves empty bottles around no full bottle full body just barely barely drinking. You know, he opens them and take sips, I can't stand that I can't stand the wasted drink. It's like what are you doing, like, come on? So you see, like three quarters of a drink sitting there at someone abandoned. That's one of my life. I don't know something about that, too. Bothers me, you can't finish it for crying out on the thing now to all right? We've got some more tickets to. Let's go.
Moment of the Day (07/03/19)
"Tuesdays maggie gray a baby boy congrats as we hear from g so congratulations to them very exciting stuff for her first time mother it is an incredible journey so congrats maggie enjoy it they did posted a video of cmb announcing it a not not the video for giving birth video cmb announcing it and i thought i clicked on the wrong video 'cause i start the video and carlin's giving out the phone number so i'm like what do you giving out the phone number you don't see comes back is eight seven seven three three seven sixty six sixty six madam pay me taking calls were so like conditioned here wsvn to do the same
BONUS: A conversation about history with Dan Carlin
"CATES Jordan with a little big story weekend this week in Toronto one of the Good Friends of our network his name is Jeff is of Dan Carlin host of hardcore history here at the big story we cover turf his new book the end is always near chronicles apocalyptic extremely relevant to my interests and clarinet I thought it might be relevant to yours too court history and if it's not for you then no worries we'll be back on Monday with a fresh big we know about you Dan is that you don't handle compliments well but here we are at history podcast listeners common sense as well how do you react to this anything so I really and you're right listen to be honest as nice as an intro as that humbling I appreciate it more than you'll ever know and I know people say stuff like this and don't really mean it but rolling their eyes at me deciding to try to make a living podcasting the worst part was latest gentleman Dan Carlin her might be we know and by the way the new podcast has dropped on Thursday whatever comes to your mind please share with the audience it's like playing the hits Gavrilo Princip what comes to your mind right away oh boy how one Joel being able to throw all of our lives and determine it's just another example like Lee Harvey Oswald Heimer who I always think that line and we quoted in the podcast it wasn't actively we can grow into a higher level individually we can all grow and evolve and become under fiction for you Alexander the Great Alexander she liberals have such an enormous respect and admiration for all these terrible figures in history given me way more joy than I think any of his victims thousands of years ago would have liked to have known that he's eight I almost name child after this gentleman this character Captain Robert Shaw the actor who played the role and I saw a documentary with Robert Shaw once and talking about how high energy fades you get older and everything is a facet of your ability we're at the end of our rope and I say I hope we can finish this thing before it finishes me so and Sheriff Brody my wife said you're not getting to you're not you're not getting to jaws characters I don't know what to think about the whole or wealth l. and it's Kinda boring and yet they're all substance people and so what you're supposed to get from a guy like between the the future is those two guys have seen it and we're about halfway or welcome about halfway Huxley you have to be here I o Joe about a million favors and he's done a lot of things for a lot of people and so I just okay so somebody told me something I've never confirmed if it's true but you know how I always use that statue of Liberty what I like about the twilight zone rod sterling guys know and it's kind of the I used this for my own show is end of it you knew okay that was that was Carlin stuff so actually loved that show and I love the creative we started doing this podcast because there was no we're no metrics and we call those Oh you something and so we started to use these writers in these authors in these experts as oh when it's me talking we're talking so the quote and quote thing happened there and now of course you know the quote unquote thing for the audiobook and there were some interesting angles and one guy said well you unquote s I could make this station with somebody about that show a while back where we were talking about the funny thing run in rotation as much as you would expect it to because even though the I mean it's funny that he I was talking to the guy on the show runners from game of thrones Dan and they were gonna it away but he was going to be a way to hold your up to our times now and so to explore some issues got down before anybody got any farther than the idea stage and the one thing I remember him tried to do it in a way that would make it possible and still wasn't possible it's an interesting time we honest it's only because I lack the knowledge but I think that somebody could and I think somebody will there there's the crime on the island and then you get to see how every person on the island saw the crime differently American view of it because one thing Americans often forget is how long slavery persisted in South America and so for a long time they just use people the original labor saving device I think we called it its own enquirer. I don't think that's a compliment it's not a problem I just don't know what to say I just feel lucky so when you say Dan Carlin I awesome for me and so that's a personal thing I just think of my family so this is two thousand and five and here you are in another country or what but you know how life is I mean you take these leaps and the leap before the podcast veiled she could have said okay that's it you're going to go get whatever talk radio job they'll hire you remember sitting I didn't do the history show for a little while either we did the political show and then we said you know I don't we'll go out to experts for opinions right away what they say and I went to about compet right so what did you did you save any of those letters I answered this guy who's already invested heavily in this that it's stupid so didn't ask public what they wanted because they would have said they wanted a faster horse it's a little light that where the oh I didn't check it out because that would have been my nature it's a great point Huey Lewis Whitney Houston on the radio and questions coming up and feel free again filter carts and questions for Dan one thing that you a fighter with heart and I'll show you a guy that gets beaten up allots Dan physically impose your will on someone I've always felt maybe something that's tougher well let me tell you the reason I brought this up because I have a lot of old history books and I grew up reading old gaining in tough times make all that sorta stuff one hundred years ago historian would've thought that that was within their history there's things that just don't fit into the quantifiable aspects of it Dell Brooke wasn't some Bro Guy when he was talking about tough this he's he saw something that he thought one hundred resiliency is warlike we don't even know what and if the spartans are considered tougher they only tough xers who met each other and every single aspect was the same except the question teller and a person who asked questions can get into that are professional and have a lot of things that are just unquantifiable and so to me the toughness is the perfect example of one of those questions or she talked about the various ethos through literature and in England geographically huge spread population had to endure four very picture reading your podcast of who was who was able to typify halfway through it and I started you got me thinking about it because one of the things about toughness that that that other ways you can define toughness resiliency right and that's when I start thinking about all the women Adams was gone so often that she had to raise her kids and and she cannonballs exploding right outside the house Kinda thing I remember thinking it's one thing to be John Number of human beings men and women that have been trapped in those situations so it's not I don't WanNa pick out some famous powerful people aren't as trapped in the years of history as regular average people are and so grounds one of the things we never talk about is luck because we wanted to pretend that we understand everything and can look how much of a wildcard in everything that you've done or written about is luck lucky when you go knock on a bunch of people's doors and continually knock until somebody answers well oh you know because it's different in every situation some people are just straight up darn lucky and some try to connect the dots from the beginning he says you'll never be able to do it because there's too many weird regretted analogy for it and I'm sorry if I use analogy that makes no sense to most of you there's a ride at Disneyland the illusion of control but when that left hand turn comes and you have to turn the track makes you we're decisions he made and how much of it is a combination of the two and one of the things you do as well as you put everybody that's where I say to myself is Dan Carlin really doing history here that what we've been able to do anything it's to me started different way I had them and I feel the same way about history that some people are born my brain just as organized that way I people don't need any help they don't need any help to meditate or to understand but there are people that never well all of a sudden it opens the door for them to start the domino start tumbling yeah I see that as a compliment they say they're talking about sports but they're really talking about a metaphor for life it's a metaphor for Howard and this is you know this is different for a Canadian audience for us when everything is so knee jerk and everybody's very to get people who don't agree with you to even listen very long and without having truth that we can on those defenses right because they're very knee-jerk so it's when we if I talk politics with you or if I talk parties areas where there are echoes that seem familiar and I feel like we can talk about and better the surrounding influences that help you maybe to see the bigger picture curious what the editing Dr Andrew Spinal once said I don't believe people who tell me they know things reminds me of the John Maynard Keynes Line where the great economist was coming Zim essentially a flip-flopping right you change your mind on something and the response was something to the effect of I don't know how you can consider yourself intelligent or wise if your opinions are so wrong because only took one psychology class in college but they called it a totem right words part of Your Gore was a totem right. It's who who you think you are and it's part of your image well they don't wear the leather jacket the Dan warned me back I told you it was going to go wandering I'm GonNa ask this and this historic says that now I will choose some of those issues because they're interesting I'll say isn't it interesting it never happened to me and talk radio you could talk about something going on in Iran in the local talk how wrong I had it but like right now. There's a resurgence in in Russia of very nationalistic him saying you know this is just typical propaganda and so it's it's easier for a guy like myself to put anything over on anybody I think the way journalist does it and that's that's my background is to sit wasn't just one straight up linear view of history that was dead set truth set in concrete so I always say what would happen if only one of those broadcasts made it into the future F- from one side of the equation will they'll right sometimes history from that side of terrance can't once said if you consider were descended from angels separate light areas accomplishment where are we to arrive at this point right how to live with our our nuclear weapons destroyer of worlds and I really that was you any anything that affects future right now it's this question like we said earlier growing into and that's where the problem lies I think and and I don't know how I there's a difference but in terms of telling us about the heard I'm not sure we're different than I heard they're reliable I mean you can make a noise in the whole herds and one of them's GonNa Stampede for lack of a better word because I don't know what we're after here enlightened people wise people intelligent rosen out right they were having to work the land or or they were peasants or whatever so now we have more individual so that's what strange but like what we talked about nuclear weapons right and we ancient rulers because when you read his stuff that was really only intended almost like his own daily wise and they can get great things done but then the problem is is that you know with any system that his replaced all of you with ancient Egyptians they're going to be less well read less learned no less if we have to grow into greatness to survive I have confidence that many of you can do that I don't have confidence that we can I don't have a lot of confidence in them at the moment I think the purpose of this talk certainly under the under the umbrella history since so that's why we're all here today lucky enough and I I told him not to I declined there's a there's an education foundation as I said the last thing I want to do is is right to a bunch of educators and they should be teaching history because I love the way I learned it but truthfully if we examine it with covering the new world in fourteen ninety two everybody should know that my reply in that article that I wrote Vegetate I'm citizen and you you wasted all that time you know give me back to this point because forget it gets crazy when you read a book by Adolf Hitler to find yourself agreeing with anything there which is a little upsetting but but it just shows you how long the critique has been around right a practical value that they can use the rest of their lives as the difference between I think like addition subtraction us so everybody has something they love and that has a history first motorcycles or you show anybody a address from years ago development and the historical process so if you get out of that classroom understanding circumstances so that you may not know that Columbus discovered American fourteen ninety two nation you you you mentioned the Hitler topic and there's you've talked about the but we look at movies there is the good guy and the bad guy there are heroes into making a villain I think of something that Plato would always talk about how people have a natural of good and you realize new this in in movies that the greatest villains to do and just as a little aside the reason that they're five hours long as your fault I all there was a you know at the at the school I went to they have this room were history majors can all hang out and have lunch and telling you the of the of the context and I started getting the first feedback from that first show and they were saying things like made sense but the first show was a comparison of motives and it was called Alexander versus Hitler thought this was going to make the world a better place whereas if what some have have written about on the on the on the great tree of history and if you kill a lot of people because you think you're doing l. where somebody's killed the motive is going to be a huge part of you know how long you get fought because Alexander's worse than Hitler because he had motivations that were more and so I don't have any answers as you well known as a matter of fact if you're getting this book for answers you're being trouble continually more deadly weapon systems there is no right answer but it may be the most important Edberg who was then the president of Hbo Sports Who's interviewing on talk radio and I said but a fight that before I watched it I had zero desire to watch there's not a chance do you do what are you putting these things he said the answer is very simple I tell all of our producers never and that's it it's funny you say that because now I'm replaying in my head all of the commentaries asked or whether you rate I'd like to have the answers I'd love to I'd love Sion's and and I think I think the funny thing about it is knowing your limitations helps you succeed I ten episodes right Seinfeld wasn't Seinfeld for the first ten if to grow into that and breath perfect perfect could not have come at a better time why do this right we talked about the audio footnotes early right how do I compensate for the it's funny to be Godfather podcast right because heavy if actually taught how much was dumb luck I had what he had her what she had I think the questions AAC what I would say without a grain of salt because they disagree right so for a person who's not even right so I leave it up to the audience how do you know when the podcast is done I knew I say stop I knew I had this whole thing coming up right this whole book tour and everything else only five and and I said I don't even mind that it's five hours five hours we didn't get very far that's the part and that is kind of what it is but what that means is I can go in the studio one day I told love so the the funny thing about podcasting is that when I wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning it's a wasted day in the studio but it's not wasted because it actually gets us to the version but when they don't work well that's three days in the studio we went down this tangent and we never came the creative white space that podcasting you and I come from talk radio backgrounds what if I said you get five the best way to tell this story or I can't go any farther eddie more or whatever it might be that shuts off and that's people's favourite episode if I had to name one I do want to say though that Apache tears and we put a we inserted a an apology to the listeners ause buttons and I went yeah they do come back breath you're in McLennan territory Marshall McLuhan tears were University of Toronto the end and boom were shut down we're out we're off the break I wanna get your thoughts if you say something on the radio people will talk about what eighteen why used to television reporter and I was the most things were I never was like oh I could never be aware enough of what my hands redoing even now I'm just I'm still and partly came into play and you talked about we talked about Dead airspace right pause silence silence you think that the minute there is silence everyone's going to click stop or turn the only way to get people to go like this it's the stop talking you do that really well can't claim I never took any classes on speech and debate they tried to get me to take speech and debate grandfather who was a natural storyteller and I was afraid that if they taught me the last talker but then things will slow down and then things will get quiet and then we'll go back and then loud and when I was in radio they have a natural thing that goes out on the station that's a compressor but if you think about talking and speaking as like painting then what you're doing the if you're a storyteller those are the best tools in your toolbox and so super-duper sound experts and one of them cut I really liked the podcast but I did e mail you to tell you about how you ah if you heard I think if you could do a side by side comparison and you heard grandfather he wasn't from Ireland he just had that thing and it was a natural no just you knew same time I I don't think you'd like it as much if we compress it mentioned any quote earlier it's no it's fantastic Dan this isn't a book reading but Can I ask you to read a paragraph Arlen Paragraph at that makes sense and even wrote here Carlin passage reading a scripted thing word for word and the podcast I'll be interested are twenty one years after planet of the apes was released at an excavation of the aw but like so many other mounds in the area it was actually a man made stone and layer of destruction and burnt material just beneath the soil pieces of weapons were discovered that allows one was fantastic that drop that was weird I just want you to know it's a lot easier a day where you just want to not do anything but you had comatose is a good way to put it if you're if you're a a band and you're recording well shows you my age record album CD and you've lost all ability to judge what we say with virgin ears right and so by be a disaster we would know it by that time and so it also makes it hard obviously to know what it needs or is wonderful because it would help us be able to say gee on page two you already said this let's cross that out page sort of a blind on us ear blindness we can't hear it anymore so that initial feedback bunch albums and some of them every led Zeppelin fan likes and some of them are kind of more niche things or no but so that initial feedback we get really important where we can sort of go so it's okay coltrane changes nobody else did them in your own mind again I'm asking you to analyze yourself sit there and go how am I going to say this or how am I going to do that so if there is a signature it's the same signature Jose County doesn't sound exactly like he does on the podcast but the podcast is a monologue and this is a dialogue to be in the room with the referring to himself as Arthur and all these things if I talked to you if I if I put this microphone stand and I stood up here and just and just sort of talk to if I have a signature style it's the way I talk all the time which is again why my kids have no idea why you guys WanNa hear this all right okay thank you okay you say we are most at risk of global financial collapse technological collapse so one of the things we talked about it the book is the collapse of the Bronze Age which is an interesting situation danger must be much greater but there's a resiliency and redundancy that we have built biological weapons actually in the long run so I think when you talk about the various ways thinking that it's just one of the many things that opens up the door to the UNKNOWABLE 's right it doesn't mean recive societies have with things like social media social media has been a strain on our societies kind of allies in them I mean my stepfather used to say the best way to destroy the old Soviet Union wasn't tab with the social media I think the combination of our society be more resilient is offset by Oh cast with James Burke talked about some of these him but the interesting thing about it Dan he little things at the job I have is you can call up somebody that you really admire have a little he's one of those people that just you know when we talk about dream ideas about who you'd want you've got to be nice to have really intelligent wise people in charge you know that I wake up he cut there's so many you know we talked about Alexander earlier but I get this feeling not not to take it into politics but I was talking about Donald Trump was somebody deadly could dictate three letters at the same time while talking I mean the things that these people could do and genre right so the kind of people I'd like to meet our I really would love to know on the way to to meet him and I just thought am I going to be able to say anything to this person that isn't just ancient sources don't tell me enough for me to get my mind around but and then there's the fan boy stuff I mean you towards dentistry yeah I can't handle from Sean you tell it in dramatic captivating instinct way whom on and this is maybe a little object lesson for how interesting choosing eater major for two years and then I was a military history major for three you say to yourself back like you can't plan those things so when you say my style some of the theater major because all you want to do is perform but they make you take courses like aesthetics like what everybody remembers from tonight is what experiences do credit as Lawrence right although you know us a lot of it is is your is your feedback because you know when we started hardcore history it just 'cause I didn't spit into the microphone I mean that's the level we're talking about at the time and and some of that was simply framing so you know you always have that big voice well and so I thought okay well how can we make that part of the package right and so I would have the big voice announcer at the very end of the big voice era so they wanted everybody to sound like the big boys kind of guy silence silence silence ever thought about having your adenoids out that was oh big voice guy so to talk he's loud he's just things caught up that's take that in a weird direction because I I don't think there are lessons since I'm one of the lessons that you'll hear all the time on talk radio or whatever as we learned from nineteen thirty eight a Munich that Nabil's that prevent you from learning those kinds of specific lessons are- specific lessons about individuals then it doesn't work that that is interesting I was I
Episode 56: Dan Carlin
"Are you looking to reach your full potential and achieve success in business and in life want only tried and tested guides. Let's from people who have truly made an impact. You have come to the right place. Welcome to five questions with Dan. Chevelle New York Times bestselling author Dench Bell distills. The most actionable and tangible advice from a variety of world-class humans including entrepreneurs ignores authors Olympians Follow Titians Billionaires Nobel Prize winners Ted speakers celebrities astronauts and more inspirational guidance practical advice and concrete solutions our power chat sal. Welcome to the fifty sixth episode of five questions with Dan. Shaw Bell as your host. My goal secured the best advice from the world's smartest and most interesting people by asking them just five questions. My guest today is the host of the hardcore history. podcast Dan Carlin born in California. Dan Is the son of actress. Lynn Carlin and film producer. Ed Carlin he obtained his degree in history at the University of Colorado Boulder before breaking into TV news in the nineteen eighties as a reporter for Kvil TV. In Eugene Oregon from Mary hosted commonsense a podcast where he evaluated current earn political trends from one thousand nine hundred four to twenty fourteen in two thousand fifteen he launched hardcore history a podcast that explores topics are world history such as the Cold Cold War the Asia Pacific or a series on Genghis Kahn the fall of the Roman republic and a series on world war. Two I spoke with Dan about his new book. The end is always near his personal history. How he's built his following and his best career advice? How did you become an effective storyteller? And how can others do the same. Well I'm not sure sure I'm so good with advice on this when only because I feel like I came out sort of at birth talking a lot And maybe something like that's genetic may have a little Irish storyteller Taylor gene that runs through individuals in the family. And maybe I I lucked out with version of it but but I think that the ability to tell a compelling the narrative is something that a lot of people are just born with. It doesn't mean you can't become a better speaker. They always have those Dale Carnegie courses on how to become a more effective speaker and so oh absolutely lots of people get better all the time and it doesn't matter how how much natural talent you have mean. That's why they're still speech in debate courses and all those things to make you better but in my case I feel like I just kind of locked out ended up at very verbal errands Tampa very verbal household. And I think it reinforce something that was already genetic genetic addict loud mouth to begin by saying what do you think makes an effective storyteller. What what are the qualities and attributes there a couple of ways you could go about it depending on on? You're right so if you're a person who was born as a as a natural storyteller will then. I think you stay with your strengths right. Because sometimes those people have very unique ways. Talk of a of a compelling tale that you wouldn't wanNA standard right. You wouldn't want that person to go take the Dale Carnegie Course and learn how to do it by road. They've got a natural talent with their own style. If you don't have something like that well then I think there's lots of things out there. They can literally teach you how to break down a story right so these are the main and characters. This is the dramatic tension. You want to establish in other words. There's a forum to this. If you don't need the form I think he keeps you freer and looser and more unique. But if you don't have the form to begin with he can teach you sort of let let's call it the elements of storytelling and I think he going learn If for no other reason even if you're just a logical mathematical things things by rote. NFL person there are ways to check all the boxes. And make sure your story or your narrative is compelling and explains all the things you want say what was one milestone L. stowed in your life that you are most proud of why well I mean. It's probably not the answer you're looking for but I mean I think having kids personally Because it's one of those things where if you WanNa talk talked about before and after a you know you're I think at least in my case and a lot of parents case you one person before you have kids in another person afterwards words in impacts your career if for no other reason than you realize it's not just a pass fail course. That has you as the person at the center. But you have people people reliant are you so I think everything takes on a different form of seriousness and You know it's it's funny because in past generations parents were often so much younger than they. They are now and I was in my early thirties by kids. I thought to myself God you know. The level of responsibility just skyrockets when you have to have when you think about other people needing you and so for me. I think got if I'd had that same. Level of responsibility skyrocket at Twenty One or twenty two. Either one or two things would have happened either. I would have been a disastrous disastrous failures of arid and way too young or you kind of look go. God what if I had that sort of growth responsibility and let's just call it. Emotional Ocean load carrying capacity. Would Twenty one or twenty to thirty one or thirty two so for me the milestone is and I think it was a different person before and afterwards is having children. Take US behind behind the scenes with your hit. PODCAST show hardcore history. What does it take to produce a quality show like yours and then build a loyal following around it a lot more than it used to be the short answer? Once upon a time those shows like twenty minutes long now there are many many hours It takes a lot of and I liked. It takes a lot of people before that. It's a nice ice feeling to be able to say you sort of in the sports metaphor you say that you left an all out on the field and I think you've got to be able to you really have to use every brain. I want to be able to walk away and feel like you gave everything you had to the project and so by the end of these things. I feel exactly like that like you left it all out in the field like his pizza boxes and Starbucks Cup all over the place like a bomb went off in the studio and And you can hardly talk anymore and so that somebody end of these things you feel very wrung out and like college. Final exams are over with. But there's a satisfaction level that sort of investment and effort brings on the other side especially if it's well received so it takes a ton of effort a ton of reading at and truthfully it's a little like performance art so it also takes a ton of good sessions in the studio to make work. Can you give an example from your career. And how tough moment made you stronger and more resilient it's almost a cliche at Winston Churchill. That great line about you never give in. Never give up every it's really one of those things where people say failure makes you stronger. It's a whole bunch of cliches but I'll tell you what I When the whole Internet boom was first happening in the late nineteen nineties and I knew a lot of tech people and it seems silly not to try to jump in and take advantage of everything that was going on so I started tech that company? Seven or eight friends of mine and I it was all based on something like amateur content years before they were podcasting. We were involved in amateur contact while the company didn't work and it didn't do what we wanted to do but there were a lot of interesting little nuggets that I learned along the way that have come in handy ever since and so it is a bit of a Cliche to say that you learn from your mistakes but it may be a better way to put it is. If you don't learn from your mistakes maybe they weren't big enough mistakes because So I I remember. They're just being a huge learning curve when I jumped from radio broadcasting into a business environment and I feel like even if the business itself didn't pan out all that stuff I learned heard I feel like I use all the time now even in analyzing other things so the old line about failure being helpful I mean obviously failure can be failure in the long run but but a lot of times. It's sort of what you make of it and I probably would not be here today talking to you about podcast today if I hadn't been involved in amateur content in the late. Nineteen nineties failed company. And what is your best piece of career advice. Oh It's funny I look back at it when you get to be my age. I'm fifty three now. You start to have a lot of people that you know who run into that proverbial time when their their their dreams are broken and they're full of regrets. They wished they'd turned left. Instead of right albuquerque all those kind of things and when you look back on their lives and try to analyze it as an outsider which is impossible to do but but when you look at them you can see several places a lot of times where you go guide. You know that person stay too long at this job or that person needs to be looking for for the next stop more. I people get comfortable. I guess is a good way to put it in their jobs. Because there's a lot of other things in people's lives that needs addressing and if the job's going okay the tendency is to say well I'll stand stand-pat here for a while or maybe they'll just promote me or something like that and so often I find that getting comfortable in that situation ends up being something that really slows people's careers down and it it. It's advice that no one wants to hear because life is tough enough to have to constantly be Johnny on the spot about looking for the next jump forward but it is one of those things things that later in life when you're my age you look back on and there's a lot of people regretting that. They didn't do more of that when they had the time. It's easier said than done but it's something that I've noticed quite a it may be we stay too long sometimes. Comfortable jobs thank you so much for sharing your wisdom Dan to follow his journey can read his book. The end is always near listen to hardcore history and fight him on twitter and facebook where he shares new episodes of his podcast life updates media interviews and interactions with fans. We hope you enjoyed today's show. And the amazing advice. Our guest provided. Remember that you can only benefit from advice if you packed on it before you do. We would appreciate she at your feedback in the form of review. You can leave a review on itunes stitcher or a pod catcher of your choice. Your feedback would be very very much appreciated head over to Dan Shaw Bell Dot com slash review now.
"From the Wilderness of Kodiak Island Alaska this is murder and mystery in the last frontier with your host Robin Bear Field. In a land full of peril and vicious animals, humans are the most dangerous predators of all. When a beautiful intelligent young woman pitted her three fiancee's against each other. Someone could die. Welcome to murder and mystery in the last frontier I'm your host, Robin, airfield and I'm broadcasting from the heart of the Kodiak. National Wildlife Refuge on Kodiak Island in Alaska. Alaska has always attracted adventures with her for a love of the great outdoors or an imagined opportunity to get rich young people from around the globe flock to the state each year. Substantial economic booms have defined Alaska over the years including the gold rush during the early nineteen hundreds and the building and early operation of the Trans Alaska pipeline in the nineteen seventies. Commercial Fishing Heydays have also occurred when prices have skyrocketed for seafood, such as Pacific, Salmon Herring, and of course king crap. These economic peaks transformed Alaska in many ways both good and bad. The oil boom brought a great deal of money to the state and workers. Mostly young men rushed to Alaska from the lower forty eight, hoping to land prosperous pipeline. Criminals followed the money to Alaska and exploited every possible angle to relieve oilfield workers from their paychecks. Drugs flooded the state and topless bars from Fairbanks to anchorage popped up overnight. In the intervening decades since the building of the pipeline, things have mellowed anchorage still has problems with drugs and crime, but these issues resembled those of every other US city. Most of the topless bars have long since closed and the wild. Frontier Spirit in anchorage is gone. One of the most famous striptease clubs in Anchorage though has managed to survive the changing times, the great American Bush company remains open today, and it is central to the crime I am profiling in this episode. A May second, nineteen, ninety-six to two gach electric workers inspecting the transmission grid across the keanae peninsula stopped to check electric meters near Hope Alaska when they noticed a bright red patch of red on the power line trail. When one of the workers walked toward the object, he realized it was a man lying on the path. Once? He got closer he saw the man was dead, his mouth agape, and one side of his face, smashed open and bloody. The worker noted several bullet casings on the ground, and knew someone shot the man, and this was a crime scene. He called Alaska State Troopers and Trooper Rodney pilch hurried to the scene. Trooper. pilch noticed the victim had a chest, wound a massive hole in the face, and a line of dried blood, trailing from his left ear. The victims wallet and Checkbook protruded from the right pants pocket pilch learn from the driver's license. The dead man was Kent, La- pink thirty six, and he lived in South Anchorage La- pinks checks also listed another account holder. Her name was Michelle Hughes. Michelle had a Selah. Sixty miles north of Anchorage. PILCH also found an insurance in pinks pocket listing a change of beneficiaries on his life insurance policy. The trooper pulled keys to a dodge Omni, from La- pinks pocket, but since there was no vehicle at the murder scene pilch guest, someone possibly leppings. Murder drove away in the vehicle that brought the pink to this trail. Trooper investigator Ron Belden and Sergeant Steve to heart. Where the first detectives to arrive on the scene de heart became the lead investigator on the case. Detectives determined and Israeli Made Desert Eagle semi automatic pistol had fired the forty four caliber casings scattered on the ground. The medical examiner stated the killer I shot. LA- pink in the back and then shot him twice more after he fell to the ground. Troopers learned the Anchorage address listed on the pinks. Checks belong to a house owned by John Carlin. Since no one was home at the Anchorage. Residents investigators drove to the Wassira address listed as the home of Michelle Hughes the other name on the pinks checks. When they arrived at the House and Silla, they've found Hughes John Carlin the third and Giancarlo. Son John in the fourth, all working in a storage shed at the rear of the House. The three toll troopers. They were gathering items from the shed to take back to Carlin's home in South Anchorage. They claim they were looking for possessions. Housemate can't pink stole from them and then hid in the shed. They said Kent Live with them when he wasn't on his fishing boat in Prince William Sound. One of the detectives told Michelle that can't pink had been found murdered Michelle told authorities. She just returned from vacation with her boyfriend Scott healthy at Lake Tahoe Michelle said she didn't know anyone who would wanna kill Kent but she did. Acknowledge can't might have enraged someone because he was sneaky and often untruthful. Michelle appeared very upset by the news of looping step, but the trooper did not by her display of grief. Her reaction seemed staged. As troopers investigated the death of can't La- pink, they uncovered a complex web of lies, seduction and betrayal with Michelle Hughes at the center of it all. Michelle was only twenty three years old with someone murdered Kent Pink on a remote trail, but the beautiful young woman already had accumulated three fiances, who lavish term with furs, jewels and money. Born in New Orleans Michelle Hughes was bright and ambitious at sixteen Michelle left New Orleans and moved to New York to pursue a modeling career. While, she did lance jobs. Modeling was not the get rich scheme. She expected and Michelle decided if she wanted to find a good job and Mary a respectable man, she needed to get a college education. To earn enough money to pay for her tuition. Michelle cashed in on her looks and body, and she did not mind taking risks to reach your goal. After a few years in New York Michelle returned to New Orleans and began working as a stripper at a nightclub when Michelle turned twenty one, she decided she could earn even more money working as a stripper in Alaska where businessmen, fishermen and especially oil field workers have surplus money to spend on gorgeous young women. Michelle moved to Alaska and got a job dancing at the great Alaskan Bush company. Michelle was not much of a dancer, but she was good, looking charming and smart men seemed helpless in her presence, and they gave her furs, jewelry and cash. Michelle often made between one thousand dollars and three thousand dollars a night in tips dancing at the Great Alaskan Bush company. She also formed relationships with several ever fans outside of business hours, and her unfortunate marks gave her even more money. CAN'T LA- pink John Carlin. A businessman named Scott, healthy or three of the men who received most of her attention. Michelle accepted engagement rings from the Pink Carlin and healthy and was engaged to all three men at the same time. By nineteen, Ninety six Michelle had earned enough money to retire from stripping enroll in classes at the University of Alaska, Anchorage and buy a home in Selah. Kent La- Pink Often State Michelle's house, and when Michelle bided Scott Hill key to also live with her hill Katie, found the living arrangements strange, but he accepted it he'll key discovered extensive rot, Michelle's house and a building inspector told her she would need to move out of the house until it can be remodeled. Michelle mentioned the problem to her friend. John Carlin and Carlin anxious to have Michelle closer to him invited Michelle Hill Katie and the pink to move into his house in Anchorage and live with him and his son. Eventually. All three accepted Carlin's offer, but Hill Katie. Who traveled for business only stayed at Carlin's house infrequently when his work brought him to Alaska. The cast of characters in this story is a bit confusing, so let me give you a little more detail about the in Michele's life. Scott Hill Katie was a traveling businessman whose job often brought him to Alaska. Like the other men in this story. Scott met Michelle at the Great Alaskan Bush Company. Of the three men, Hill key was Michele's favorite while Scott did not have access money to on Michelle. He did have a cash. A frequent flyer miles an often flew Michelle to exotic resorts for Romantic getaways. He'll key lived with Michelle for awhile, but finally moved back to California. He and Michelle stayed in touch though and they frequently met for trysts. John Carlin Michele's second fiance was awarded one point two million dollars in a legal settlement from a former employer in Philadelphia. The contractors supplied his workers with lead based paint to paint a huge suspension bridge over the Delaware River and Carlin suffered lead poisoning. With his small fortune. Carlin moved his wife and son to Alaska, but his wife died of natural causes soon after they arrived. Carlin bought home in Anchorage, and he and his son John Carlin the fourth stayed in Alaska when Carlin saw Michelle at the Great Alaskan Bush company. He fell in love and began spending his money on her. Michelle's third fiance was Kent La- pink. His family owned a successful chain of grocery stores in the Midwest. Can't start it in the family business, but was fired after he embezzled one hundred thousand dollars. After losing his job can't met Alaska, commercial fisherman, who invited Kent to work as a crewman on his fishing boat during the summer of nineteen ninety three. Kent became enamored with the fishing industry and Alaska, and he convinced his father to give him money to buy his own fishing boat. Like her other suitors can't met Michelle at her place of work and fell in love. Despite his infatuation with Michelle can't was also attracted to men, he refused to have sex with Michelle until after they were married, even though he knew she was having affairs with the other men. Not long before his murder can't reportedly made advances towards young Giancarl in the fourth. The overtures upset the boy and infuriated his father. John Carlin the third call the police, but they did not pursue the case. John Carlin finally accepted that he and Michelle would never be more than friends, but couldn't pink told his family. He would soon marry Michelle and they were planning their wedding. Can't was jealous. Michelle's other suitors and often spied on her and read her emails. When she left town, he would drive through the airport parking lot to see if our car was parked there once when she and Scott Hill Katie rendezvous at a resort in Louisiana can't followed them surprising them in their hotel room by serving them coffee in bed. Can't also spied on his other roommates and reportedly stole their possessions. The week before Kim's murder Michelle met Scott at Lake Tahoe. Michelle told police that to throw can't off their trail? She asked John Carlin to write her a note saying she and a friend were welcome to spend the weekend at his cabin near Hope Alaska. In Truth Carlin did not own a cabin near hope. At the bottom of the note Michelle wrote a message thanking Caroline and asking him not to tell anyone else where she would be for the weekend. Michelle Vin Litho note where can't would see it. After Kent's death troopers found this note in cance car. They believed. Kent drove to hope on the day of his murder to search for Carlin's non existent cabin, and the authorities felt the real purpose of the note was to Lure Kent into the Wilderness near hope where Michelle and Carla. Could kill him. I WanNa take a break from the story for minute and thank the creative folks at the puzzle game. Best fiends for sponsoring this podcast I appreciate your support. I've been talking about best fiends for the last several months, a really got into the game this winter on my vacation and I haven't stopped playing it sense as many of you know. My husband and I live in the middle of the Wilderness on Kodiak Island and these last two months have been extremely quiet out here. Both my husband and I love playing best means, and the game has been a welcome stress release especially during these crazy times. I enjoy hanging out with my colorful little insect pals, as we care for the plants and battle the slugs. I must admit the big bombs are my favorite slug deterrent. Best means challenges me with every puzzle as I concentrate on completing the assigned task in the allotted number of moves, each level takes only a few minutes to play, but you sometimes must replay the puzzle several times until you successfully conquer it. The slugs tough to kill, and yes, I sometimes yell at them, but the Games. Vibrant shades and comical characters always make me smile. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play. Download best scenes free on the apple APP, store or Google play. That's friends without the our best fiends. In February nineteen, ninety-six, just three months before Kent looping murder Michelle and can't met with an insurance agent. They told the agent they were planning to take out a loan together to buy a fishing boat and they needed to purchase life. Insurance policies to secure the loan. They wanted policies for one million dollars each. Agents said he could ride a million dollar policy on Kent's life, but since Michelle would not be working on the fishing boat, and because she can't were not yet married, he could only write a one hundred and fifty thousand dollar policy for her. Can't listed Michelle as the primary beneficiary on his policy, and he also changed his will naming Michelle as the sole beneficiary of his property. Not long before he died can't confided to a lawyer. That Michelle was cheating on him, had stolen some of his belongings and have made large purchases on his credit card. The lawyer advised Kent to get out of the relationship because Michelle probably would never change. A few days later Kent told another lawyer I'm going to get killed. The lawyer urged Kent to move out of Carlin's house, and if the threat was real to report it to the police. Can't was obsessed with Michelle though he could not leave her. Days before his death can't changed the beneficiary on his life insurance policy from Michelle to his parents. This change of beneficiary form was the one trooper pilch found and kids pocket at the murder scene. Two days after the discovery of chance body, his parents in Michigan received a package from Kent. Inside they found a letter in a sealed envelope. The letter told them to open the envelope only if they thought something fishy had happened to him. His parents opened the sealed envelope and read what came to be known as. LA- pinks letter from the grave. In the letter, he said if he died under suspicious circumstances, they should suspect either Michelle Hughes John. Carlin or Scott Hill Katie of his murder. He told his parents to take Michelle down and he said he still loved her, but hoped she would spend a long time in prison. Camps parents called sergeant to heart with the Alaska State troopers and told him about the letter. Despite can't helpful letter suggesting list of suspects for his murder detectives had no direct evidence against anyone. The head, no gun, no I, witnesses, no fingerprints, no trace evidence and no D. N. A.. They also had no idea why can't believe he was about to be killed. Not long after cancer, Death John Carlin and his son moved back to New Jersey. Carlin had squandered most of the one million dollar insurance payout spending much of it on Michelle. Scott Milky ended his sporadic affair with Michelle and reunited with his estranged wife. Michelle moved back to New Orleans and enrolled at Loyola University. She worked several nights a week stripping at a local club. Michelle met Collin Linnehan a medical student at Tulane University. They married in the spring of Nineteen Ninety Eight, and she gave birth to their daughter the following year. Kolon was in the army reserve and became a military physician assigned to Madigan Army Medical Center at Joint Base Lewis mcchord near Tacoma Washington. The young family lived in Olympia, Washington and Michelle became a suburban housewife. She earned her masters degree and took a job as an intern at the Washington State Executive Ethics Board. Michelle was active in her daughter's school and her church and volunteered at a suicide crisis center. Nothing happened on the cat'll pink murder case for nine years in thousand five, the file was assigned to the cold case unit and retired state. Trooper detective gyms. Dog still became the lead investigator. While, reviewing the file stocks, dill noted the troopers interviewed young Giancarlo in the fourth, only in the presence of his father. Because at the time, the boy was a minor. Now John. The fourth was twenty seven years old and stock still learned he and his father were estranged, perhaps John the fourth would be willing to talk about the events surrounding the murder of Kinloch Pink. Stocks Dylan another cold case detective fluted Tacoma Washington. Were Giancarlo Fourth, now lived. They met him at his workplace and stock still noted the young man seemed nervous about the interview. Carlin, told detectives. His father purchased a Desert Eagle forty four magnum shortly after their family moved to Alaska, he said after Kent lipping was shot, he saw his father washing the pistol in bleach in a bathroom sink, and his father told washing a gun with bleach was a good way to get rid of evidence. Cold case detectives gave Michelle's Laptop Computer, and the elder John Carlin's desktop computer to forensic experts to examine. Both computers were seized shortly afterward, pinks murder, but they were never thoroughly inspected. In the early fall of two thousand six, the cold case, legal team presented their evidence to the Alaska grand jury. Although the case was circumstantial, the prosecutors felt they had enough evidence to convince the grand jury to indict Michelle Hughes Lenihan and Giancarlo in third with conspiracy and first degree murder. When Carlin heard the news, he flew from New Jersey to anchorage and turned himself in at the anchorage courthouse. On October. Four two thousand six police officers went to the Lenihan House in Olympia Washington. Call an answer the door and said his wife was not home, so the police told him he had one hour to produce Michelle. She her husband and the lawyer arrived at the Olympia police station within the hour. And a few hours later Michelle was on a plane headed to Anchorage. John Carlin the third went to trial in March two thousand seven. The case drew international media. Attention and spectators and press packed the courtroom. How could the press ignore a story about a beautiful young doctors? Wife, who was once? A stripper engaged to three men at the same time. At one point, she lived in a house with all three of them, and now she was on trial for killing one of her fiancee's. Kessler from the grave added more intrigued to the drama. According to the prosecution's theory of the murder Michelle convinced can't to buy a one million dollar life insurance policy and make her the beneficiary. then. Carlin murdered Kent with the understanding Michelle would give him a portion of the insurance payout. Michelle did not know kint took her off the policy and made his parents the beneficiaries. The prosecutor claimed Shell and Carlin barreled their murder plan from the plot of the movie the last seduction. In the film. A woman persuades her lover to kill her husband, so they can divide up his drug money. Carla's defense attorney tried to convince the jury that Greedy Manipulative Michelle pulled the trigger, and killed Kent Pink, and her client John Carlin was just an unlucky guy caught ima shells web of deceit. The most damning testimony in the trial came from Carlin's son when he testified, he saw his father washing a gun with bleach. In response, the defense produced witnesses who testified young John Carlin. The fourth was a compulsive liar with an explosive temper. He also hated Cantaloupe Pink, and the defense suggested he could have been the murderer. The prosecution based much of its case on the deleted emails. Forensic experts recovered from Michelle's laptop and Carlin's desktop computer. The e mails told the story of the conflict and intrigue in the Carlin Household in a few months before the pinks murder, some of the emails were vague. They might pertain to preparations for murder, or they could refer to something entirely different and innocent. The emails pinpointed the tension between the occupants of the house. Both can't an Carlin read Michelle's emails, and both men were jealous of her relationship with Milky. A March seventeenth, nineteen, ninety six email from Karl into Michelle said. I will call you when it is in. The prosecution suggested this was a possible reference to the paperwork for the insurance. Policy, But the statement was so vague. It could have referred to anything. Carlin made in were suspicious statement in another email. Please remind me of the errands. That must be taken care of with Kent. There are things that must be done. In a March thirty first e mail from Michelle. Scott Hill Katie. She said she was about to come into a financial bonanza. She did not explain the source of this money. On April twenty fourth one week before cans murder Carlin sent an email to Michelle. Saying you will be fine Michelle just give it a few weeks. Your life is about to get a lot better. You will see. The prosecution claimed Michelle was obsessed with money and would do anything she could to get more and Giancarlo. The third was obsessed with Michelle and would do anything she asked him to do. The jury deliberated for two days and on April third two thousand seven. Turned a verdict of guilty of first degree murder. John in the third was sentenced to ninety nine years in prison, making him eligible for parole in thirty three years when he would be eighty two years old. Michelle's trial occurred in September, two, thousand, seven, one of the witnesses for the prosecution was another exotic dancer from the Great Alaskan. Bush company, who testified she and Michelle watched the movie. The last seduction together and Michelle told her she wanted to be just like the woman in the film. In the movie The woman convinces her lover to murder her husband, so they can still his seven hundred thousand dollars in drug money. Police Arrest Lover for the crime and the woman walks away with the money. Scott Milky testified. The last seduction was one of Michelle's favorite movies, but he also suggested young John Carlin might have killed La- pink. Milky said when he called the South Anchorage home. The Day Michelle and the Carlin's learned of La pinks murder. John Carlin the fourth told him someone murdered Kent and said he was gut shot. The troopers did not tell the Carlin's Michelle. Jalapeno had been killed. So how did young John Carlin know this fact unless he was present at the murder scene? Michelle, sister testified saying the murder Machel told her can't deserved to die and should have been tortured. On October, twenty second two thousand seven jurors returned their verdict. They found Michelle guilty of first degree murder. The ruling surprised many trial observers because they thought the prosecution presented a week case. Et Michelle sentencing. The judge said he could see no difference between the puppet who pulls the trigger and the puppeteer who pulls the strings? He sentenced Michelle to ninety nine years in prison. The same sentence he gave John Carlin. John Carlin the third was incarcerated at spring. Creek Correctional Center a maximum security men's prison in seward. He did not do well in jail because he was a racist. WHO enjoyed starting arguments? When four inmates beat him up? The guards placed Carlin in protective custody. As as a return to the general population, a prisoner again attacked him. On October, twenty, seventh, two, thousand, eight, one or more inmates beat Karlon to death. Before Carlin died, his attorney filed an appeal to overturn his conviction. Since Caroline's murder occurred before his appeal could be heard. The court was forced to vacate his conviction. Michelle's hired to vanquish as best attorneys to handle her appeal. They argued the judge allowed inappropriate evidence, including testimony about the movie, the last seduction and Kent's letter from the grave. They said since the defense lawyers could not cross examined Kent about the letter. It should never have been presented as evidence. The appeals court agreed with Michelle's lawyers, and said neither the testimony about the movie, nor the letter from the grave should have been allowed in the trial. The court overturned her conviction and throughout her indictment prosecutors can still try Michelle again, but they decided they did not have enough evidence for another indictment Michelle was allowed to return to her life as a soccer mom in Olympia Washington. Michelle now operates Tacoma. Lasers clinic in Tacoma Washington. It seems likely one of the residents of Carlin's South Anchorage home. Murdered Kent Inc.. But was John Carlin the third carrying out Michelle's wishes. Giancarl in the fourth or was it Michelle? We probably will never know the answer, but there is no doubt. The web of Seduction and Jealousy Michelle Hughes weaved around her fiancee's created a toxic environment and spawned the murder. Thank you to my patrons for supporting my podcast. I appreciate you very much. If you would like to become a patron, please join the last Frontier Club where you can listen to extra episodes of this podcast. The Grand Opening of the club lasts until the end of June, so sign up soon to be entered into a drawing for free merchandise and more. You can find the link to the last Frontier Club in my show notes or simply go to Patriotdepot DOT COM. That's P. A. T. R. E. N. DOT COM and search for murder and mystery in the last frontier. Thank you for listening and I'll be back soon with the next episode of murder and mystery in the last frontier. Do. Into?
"I called my mom immediately and just cried. I cry. I couldn't feel my body went numb. I told her at Carlin's gone and she's gone. She was a beautiful young. Mom doing important work. She was a intelligence intelligence specialist. Some of her work was very sensitive top-secret. I believe she tops here clearance when she was found dead. Everyone wondered did her work cost her her life. I remembered in telling me. Did she come into a lot of money that she couldn't explain. Maybe she was selling secrets. CB best like out of a spy novel what about about other secrets the personal kind. We knew they were having issues before. They got married. She found out that he was shading somewhere out. There was a stranger keeping secrets to my data. Guy Starts going through her facebook. She'd made reference to firearms inner social media. We saw that they were communicating. Communicating gas mileage. What a weird things to do a mystery that would drag on for months and then one final secret great uncovered by science. You'd start peeling the layers back until the number is visible a puzzling death a diabolical plan and and some determined detectives. I'm Lester Holt and this is dateline. Here's Andrea canning with the alibi across the spectrum of love. Is there any more precious than that of a mother for her daughter. My son my only son Sunshine our story tonight is about that maternal tie that endorse worse from generation to generation it begins in a military town near the Mexican border del Rio Texas access a small city anchored by the Laughlin Air Force Base Carlin Ramirez grew up there. She was an easy going child says her Mom Susan Garcia Ramirez Colin. When she was young she was real calm and quiet. Parlin love to sing she just she would sing all the time and Ebben whenever she was out with her friends. You know she would sing for them. Rossana Flora's was one of those friends. What was it about Carlin that you wanted to be her friend her smile her voice a very big heart. I can honestly say she never saw any bad in anyone her friends on naive of Ara and Valerie mckechnie say it wasn't all about singing and we'll go to the local bar here yeah and they say the dancing literally happen anywhere that's Carlin and Black Fun Fun Times at the Walmart parking lot only small city right. She went to college in Del Rio started in nursing and then transfer to criminal justice nothing nothing that prepared her mom for what she did at twenty to enlist in the army. She didn't ask me. She didn't get my opinion. She told me after she had done it. Your family only as is military family we are my dad was air force. my sister's retired. Air Force and then I was in the army reserves after specialty training and information technology the army sent Carlin to South Korea off-duty. She found time to give back and she found herself volunteering at an orphanage some start well. She starts sending me pictures of a little boy that she's in love with and she says mom. I WANNA dog. Damn I said no in Korea. Carlin found another kind of love. She began dating a handsome sergeant named Melik Tierney. She was attracted to his confidence to his air the way he carries himself he was a decorated soldier this. Did she like that about him. Yes they worked out together and they ran the very competitive Carlin. Karlyn gushed about me to her friends. She said that he was a great man that he treated her right and then she told me they were engaged engaged and expecting uh pregnant the army transferred her to Fort Meade Maryland home of the National Security Agency and one of the nation's most secret and secure facilities bility's wishy happy. She excited she was excited. She started working and absolutely loved it top secret some would say mom. I can't share anything about what I do. Meantime the army moved me to Fort Jackson South Carolina where he trained recruits and chemical warfare. The couple was five hundred miles apart art while living by herself in Maryland. Carlin became friends with another soldier. Mura Samantha Rizza loved working with Carlin. She was the light of the office. She was loving. Everyone loved her. Maria was a single mom with a young daughter so in Carlin was nearing the end of her pregnancy. They decided to share a house together at back yard. It had a decent size kitchen and it was right by base. Did you ever have security concerns about the townhouse or the area we did have. Carlin had mentioned that she came home. One day and felt like stuff was moved around the house really yeah if somebody says that to me. I'm I'm getting worried. The two women kept the doors and windows locked and work together to make their town house a home. Mersa helped Carlin's set up up in nursery and then on April twenty third two Thousand Fifteen Cadillac Vail Ramirez was born grim. Susan was on the first flight from Texas. What was it like for you see Carlin and her new daughter Vail together. Your babies now had a baby. Yes it was amazing. I I got her and I wouldn't wouldn't share her with anyone. Veil was healthy and beautiful Carlin radiant. Their town house was filled with the joyful sounds of Carlin's karlyn singing to Vail. She particularly loved. You are my sunshine. He'll never know what to happy looked like. She found her purpose in life. Three months. After Vail was born Carlin Maliki married in a small ceremony in South Carolina after the Party Colin went back home to Fort Meade Maryland with the baby. She said it was hard the distance and not saying all the time. Susan stayed in touch with her her daughter. I spoke with Carlin every day. Sometimes twice a day but Tuesday August twenty fifth would-be different Susan called Carlin that morning and she doesn't answer and is that I mean unusual such a close relationship so I waited and I called her again and she didn't answer so I sent her an email to her work email a response to that called her on my lunch break and she didn't answer. I said if you do not call me back or message me. I'm going to call the police so a now frantic. Susan reached Carlin's commanding officer at his home. He promised to have someone on the base. Find her I hang up with him and I put the phone down and I hear a rough on our front yard. We Have River Rock and so I looked out and I saw three uniform soldiers odors. Oh God I knew that's just made me sick to me too. It's what any relative of a somebody in the military dreads I mean I'm a Marine Corps wife myself and that's the last thing you you don't ever want to have to see that and a yelled way. It has been sneezing and I just I dropped to my knees and is it something happened to crowded. They knocked. She was right right. Something had happened to Carlin. When did they say we always say when we return what the soldier sat next would leave this mom horrified and confused. I couldn't even imagine what could possibly happen. In del Rio Texas Susan Ramirez's husband opened their door to an army casualty notification team and the the worst news imaginable. There Carlin was dead. What did they say we regret to inform. You dislike the always say saying words words data chaplain with them in couldn't give any specifics. I asked for the baby. They said the choose hospital so what scenarios running through your mind mind. I couldn't even imagine what could possibly happen. The answers would come seventeen hundred miles away at Carlin's townhouse in Maryland Maryland Homicide Detectives Kelly harding and Dan Myers of the Arundel County Sheriff's office were on the case a maintenance person Sola Ella dog walking around into open back door of the townhomes he called nine one one and the officers got there and Carlin Ramirez had been murdered patrol. Cruel officers led the detectives to a second floor bedroom and appalling scene. It was Carlin and her four month old daughter together she was laying in the master bedroom and a little girl was they thought initially also hadn't been murdered but it turns out that she was just sleeping alongside her mom. The baby was unharmed. The investigators began their search for clues with Carlin's body. She was laying on the floor. near the crib in her pants and her underwear had been removed. Did that suggest that there may have been a sexual assault. It's something that you have to consider. The crime. Scene Investigation ramped up. CSI dusted for fingerprints and collected hair and DNA samples Carlin had been shot three times. Ballistics experts traced the bullets trajectories and recovered a bullet from the floor. They were able to narrow down the weapon to a few different models. The caliber of the projectile was three fifty seven thirty eight special of course a hard look at the spouse is homicide investigation one. Oh one so the day after they found Carlin's body detectives flew to South Carolina to talk with Maliki. He'd been placed in an interview room and he was waiting for us. They started noted by asking about Carlin. Are Maliki Superior Officer had given him only the Vegas details about what happened to Carlin excellence. Uh why it load off. They wanted to know Maliki whereabouts the day of the murder he told them he worked as usual shift Monday leaving around two PM. He said he stayed stayed in his apartment until he reported for duty Tuesday morning. The questions got personal detectives had been told Carlin was planning to divorce me like yard done down right. They learned about a brief relationship. Relationship Carlin had with another soldier at Fort Meade shortly before she married me and asked him how he felt about that. You forgive him for her and you're in relation she the detectives cut to the chase. Was He being really cooperative with you. He appeared to have nothing to hide. Maliki let them download notice phone and that wasn't all volunteered his bank records offered fingerprints and provided a DNA sample. He gave police permission to search his apartment an car. The detectives got to work right away you. We talk to neighbors that in his apartment building They said that his car never loved me. CUNYS apartment and car a distinctive Jaguar Xe J. L. came up clean and all his electronics his cell phone and Netflix account put him at home. I'm that night five hundred miles from the crime scene police check toll plazas and license plate readers between South Carolina and Maryland. There was no uh-huh sign of Malaysia Jaguar anywhere on what would have been a fifteen hour round trip. Would you said that he had a good alibi. Does Maliki Tierney was is free to go. The Maryland detectives were back to square one at the beginning of what would become an incredibly complex homicide case an investigation instigation that would span a half dozen states involved hundreds of witnesses multiple government agencies and a mountain of forensic evidence aw coming up could Carlin's top secret work have cost her her life. I wonder if she was targeted or knew something. She wasn't supposed it's now when dateline continues a little more than a week after she was killed. Private First Class Carlin Ramirez was was buried with full military honors flags were presented to her parents husband and daughter. Susan had little time under mourn. She was busy caring Carlin's daughter Vail in Texas while her father. Maliki was on active duty in South Carolina. Susan was also doing everything she could to help solve the case investigators asked again and again who would want Carlin debt. I would say you know I'm racking. My brain and I wish I could tell you but I I just cannot think of anyone. Detectives cast a wide net. They spoke with Carlin's roommate mate Marissa Multiple Times. They were curious about the soldier. Carlin had the brief relationship with before she married Maliki. Could her death have been the resolvable. Love Triangle gone bad. Their Line of questioning made me think that they're looking at the soldier that she was involved with the guy she was having the fling with at work yes. What kind of questions did they ask about him. What their relationship was like. Did he love her. Did she love him that Maliki no Tom did you have to check into the soldiers that she had the little side thing with certainly and he was devastated that this happened. He provided lighted his phone his whereabouts. We concluded that he was telling the truth where he was during the time with the boyfriend cleared some of Carlin's friends and family. I thought the murder might be connected to her top secret work at Fort Meade. I wonder if she was targeted or knew something. She wasn't supposed to know because every job the detectives were looking for any sign that Carlin might have been recruited as a spy by foreign agents. I remember specifically them telling me. Did she come into a lot of money that she couldn't explain to know she did. Maybe she was selling secrets. That's the kind of a spy novel theory. What did you learn about Carlin Ramirez versus role in the military. She was an intelligence specialist. Did you have to explore the fact that maybe this has something to do with her job. There was no evidence of a handler or any sort of misbehaving with her information. Espionage was ruled out weeks went by without a break in the case this homicide detectives are still conducting several interviews so processing evidence from the scene the crime scene investigation intensified they had my house taped off for almost a month just going through evidence going through the house trying to find things trying to find leads and Barista lived in fear remembering Carlin's concerns about someone creeping around their townhouse. Carlin had said she thought maybe somebody moved things around. Did your mind go at all to the possibility that it could have been someone random. They even almost seemed like a hitman had did it because it was so meticulously planned out. Carlin's roommate told us that they had security concerns that someone had maybe been in the townhouse it at some point. It was always something we kind of kept in the back of our minds. Did you have to consider the possibility that maybe Carlin had a stalker someone who was watching them watching her yeah we it looked extensively into her background and into her communication investigators pursued the few leads they had all the while. Susan was pushing them for answers to three times a week. You know they they would hear from me. It must have been getting frustrating that she was murdered. Her killer is out there. He S and her daughter is with you. You must've just felt will that fear. Constant fear veil was not out of our sight but she heard nothing in April on what would have been Carlin's twenty fifth birthday. The family took Vail to visit her grave by that time Maliki was living nearby the army a had allowed him to transfer from South Carolina to Fort Sam Houston he had gotten orders to get closer to the baby and as close as you can get with San Antonio so he can come and spend time with the baby on the weekend the Ramirez family struggle to find normal sleep back in Maryland. The investigation seemed to have stalled Anna Rondo. Oh County offered a twenty thousand dollar reward for information about the case the reward generated no promising leads and homicide detectives wonder if Carlin's death could be part of a larger even more sinister crime a coming up investigators pursue a stunning new theory. There's no likely suspects so the first thought is serial killer some unknown individual and then eyebrow raising revelation about about Carlin's estranged husband seed said that they'd been intimate for several years. Hey It's me Chuck Rosenberg this week on the oath. I sit down with lead nine eleven prosecutor Rob Spencer when needed to treat this as a regular murder case except with nearly three thousand victims rob was the lead prosecutor in the trial of Zachariah Misao the nine eleven conspirator and the only member of al Qaeda ever to be tried in a US courtroom. We're able to give even our avowed enemy who told US trial that could he come back and kill every one of us a fair trial join me for that conversation with Lead Nine Eleven Prosecutor Persecutor Rob Spencer. That's this week on. MSNBC's the oath available now wherever you get your podcasts uh it had been months since Carlin Ramirez had been found murdered at home with her infant daughter in her arms with all leads exhausted homicide detectives wonder if Carlin's death might be part of a pattern they they reached out to profile with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit FBI Special Agent Jonathan Schaeffer would join the team the stories that the husband's in South Carolina. There's no apparent likely suspects so the first thought is a serial killer known individual. That's where they'd requested the profiler. Oh file had there been any serial killers in the area that could possibly tied to this then no there. There wasn't a at that time it was a long shot. Did this lead anywhere contacting. Their opinion was that probably somebody close to her. Did this with no obvious progress in Carlin's case. France began to despair pair. It scared me that Carla was never going to get her justice but what they didn't know was Maryland detectives and the Army's Criminal Investigation Asian division had been quietly collecting a massive amount of electronic information of course police had initially talked to Carlin's estranged husband Maliki Maliki but his phone records indicated he was at home five hundred miles away when Carlin was murdered but months after they'd asked for it police finally finally had not only Maliki data but the data of everyone who had been contacted from his phone we then requested and received information from the people that Maliki was communicating with all their tedious digital searching paid off it was a development that took them in a whole new direction action buried in Molise phone records were numerous calls and texts with a woman named deloris. Delgado a former soldier living in Florida uh-huh when investigators pored over her phone records a dramatic discovery we had learned that Delors was actually in South Carolina during the time of the murder that data not only how Dolores in South Carolina it placed her in Malaysia apartment complex. This must have been a big break doc. This was a huge break on a Wednesday afternoon. In March. Two Thousand Sixteen detective harding turned up unannounced on delores doorstep up in Cocoa Beach Florida knock on the door and I say hi I'm detective harding. I'm from Enron Low County Maryland. I'd like to talk to you and it's a shock doc and she was very shocked. She said about what maleek and I said yes actually in an interview room at the sheriff's office the detective deloris about the night of the murder if she was in Maliki apartment and if he was with her. She admits that she was there that night what happened Emily Kernan House. She was in the living room and he went to bed as far as she knew he was there. The whole time was is this a sexual relationship. She said that they'd been intimate you for several years. So she's the longtime paramore. They definitely had a long relationship. The detectives now new one thing for sure. After talking to Dolores Delgado Maliki Tierney had lied to them about being faithful to Carlin for starters but most critically about what happened the night of Carlin's murder it if you have somebody that can account for your whereabouts during the time of a murder. Why wouldn't you offer offer that to us. Why would you keep that secret. The detectives had to consider that maybe Maliki just didn't want to admit he was cheating on his wife with Dolores. They took a closer look at this girlfriend who told them she and maleek hooked up when they were both serving. Kuwait years earlier then when harding and Myers examined Dolores phone data they learned she also lied about owning a gun. She told me that she he was almost ignorant about firearms but can her phone. I could see that she was looking for a very particular firearm on her phone. There was a text that read had my last three fifty seven paid four hundred so I wanna stay in that range. Detective Myers dove deeper into Dolores his life. My data data guy here starts going through her facebook. There are some things going on with firearms some information about where she purchased firearms previously this is the woman who had no knowledge a firearm all right the posts lead Myers here to a gun shop near Dolores his home. The shop had a sales receipt and a federal firearms transaction record for for a Taurus 357 revolver. Both forms were made out to deloris Delgado. The Revolver Dolores Bhatt matched the caliber labor of gun that had killed Carlin. We saw that has gone was one of the ones on the list of itself. This purchase of a gun wasn't a smoking King Gun but the detectives had to wonder why Delors with light of them about owning a weapon and there was something else. Mayer soon learned that Delury I said put a box of thirty eight caliber ammunition up for sale on facebook now. That's obviously can't say it's the same bullets but it matched all the characteristics all this sleuthing took months and while the detectives were Working Dolores moved to San Antonio Texas into an apartment not far from elite here here Ni one hundred fifty miles west on their farm and del Rio Carlin's. Mom knew nothing about this new person of interest despite staying on the detectives it's me again. I don't want you to forget my daughter because she was very much loved. The investigation now encompassed a half dozen states but Maryland detectives. FBI agents were homing in on Dolores Delgado. What were you all learning about. The relationship between Malate Carney Dolores Delgado just how lack of a better term weird it was. They were friends friends with benefits. They were lovers but not really romantically involved. They were just sort of best friends with a romantic bet. There was another weird thing. Dolores Delgado's phone was full of tax between her and me Cuny that weren't on his his phone and what a twisted story those tax would tell coming up. I've tip from a complete stranger. Ranger could blow the case open. He said one night we got rid of a gun. I think that was your murder. Weapon Dateline Continues Uh it was a bittersweet day in August two thousand sixteen when Carlin Ramirez loved ones celebrated her life on on the first anniversary of her murder back. East lead detectives Capelli harding and Dan Myers had developed to prime suspects Carlin's husband Maliki and his longtime mistress Dolores Delgado Gotto has they studied the couple's text messages. The detectives found something curious leak had wiped a lot of texts off his phone that still existed on Dolores phone her tax made them look at the night of Carlin's death in a whole New Light. We saw that they were communicating her gas mileage. What a weird thing to do not only that they were talking gas cans as well. The detectives had lures his bank records which showed a purchase at this Florida Home Depot. We were able to get a copy of the receipt of their purchase which included two gaskins finally they they saw the pieces of their puzzle coming together at the start of the case harding in Myers thought it was unlikely that Maliki would have been able to travel all the way to Maryland Kill Carlin and return undetected but this new evidence changed everything. Take us through what you believe happened that night. Delors is providing all the tools the firearm ammunition of vehicle and the really important alibi her staying and using his phone the detective sought as an elaborate plot delors was in Maliki apartment pretending to be him texting on his phone and streaming aiming his netflix account creating an electronic alibi while he killed Carlin this scenario explained why they didn't find Molise Jaguar on on any license plate readers if he did that long drive and Dolores as car and carried extra fuel to avoid gas station security cameras. There wouldn't be any trace of him so he drives straight there. You believe he kills Carlin. Ramirez relatively quickly at the most he would have been there for for ten minutes and then turns around and goes back only stops the one time just on the roadside and dark area to fill up the car and then immediately easily gets back in the car and continues to drive thirteen months after Carlin's death. Maliki Ernie and Dolores Delgado were arrested in San San Antonio out of the blue. Get a phone call at work and they asked me if I could come to San Antonio that evening and I said for what they said. There's been an arrest in your daughter's case but he didn't tell me. Susan and her husband made the long drive across West Texas. That's when I first met Eh Federal Prosecutor. They're the ones that that told me that that millie kid been arrested and and his girlfriend. What were you learning about Dolores. I didn't know Oh anything about her. She was no one she was no one to me assistant. US Attorneys Jim Warwick and Ken Clark met with Dolores and Maleek. I introduced myself often. Mr Kearney also got a chance to speak with Delgado. We'd presented to her the facts that we had in the evidence that we had compiled against her at that point port after the arrest came a new lead a tip to detective harding from an ex boyfriend of Dolores in Florida he he called me and said hey one night. I was hanging out with doors and we got rid of a gun and he said I think that was your murder weapon. I mean do you get calls like this every day. This is pretty remarkable. I wish but we don't investigators met with the tipster in Merritt Island Florida. He said that not long after Caroline's murder he n Dolores Delgado had burned some clothing and sneakers sneakers here and that wasn't all he told them he destroyed a revolver for her dismantled it and that the two of them through the pieces of the gun off off this pier an FBI dive team of Miami was soon on the scene. The water was Jin clear that day and divers found Forensic Sunken Contributor there on the bottom rusted covered with seaweed and encrusted with barnacles where the pieces of a handgun the parts were rush to the FBI crime lab in Quantico. Virginia dateline was given rare access to the FBI is world renowned crime lab. It is I ever interview you. Firearms expert Brett Mills told us how he examined and reconstructed the weapon. I carefully cleaned the frame of the gun. When I FINISH FINISH CLEANING IT. There was no serial number there from a reference collection. I knew where the Syrian number should be. It was gone because Delgado's ex boyfriend had grounded rounded away totally obliterated it for so he thought mills had a plan recall it serial number restoration there are still compressed layers underneath the still has that impression of the serial number using acid. We can restore that number. He demonstrated traded the process on a gun from the FBI collection. Once you've polished it you go in and you literally start peeling the layers back with the asset until the number actually is visible. It's amazing how it just reappears serial number. Sometimes it does sauce other other times. You might not be able to restore any type. A number at all. There was another way to determine if they had found the murder weapon. Mills were tried to match the telltale markings on the bullets that killed Carlin to the gun from the river. These fine strike that you see are the equivalent of a human fingerprint but there was no way the recovered weapon whatever fire again so mills removed its barrel gently cleaned it and attached it to a working revolver for test-firing you demonstrated demonstrated that process with a similar revolver mills was able to do six test firings with the recovered gun off everything he found was added to the evidence. Now prosecutors would have to see if it would hold up when the defense pointed the finger at someone Kaos in Baltimore that will court coming up trial begins could a major twist tipped hip this case it was right before Christmas so as like an early Christmas present and then the verdict and the emotional fallout in August of two thousand eighteen. Maliki Arnie's trial began federal court in Baltimore. He was charged charged with interstate travel for the purpose of domestic violence resulting in death. The trial would be the culmination of a three year investigation that had gathered foulland's of pieces of electronic and physical evidence in an extraordinary forensic effort prosecutors. Jim Warwick and Ken Clarke Want Jurors to see me. Cuny not as a superstar army sergeant but as a killer a solis executioner who took Carlin's life because she she wanted to divorce him an endangered his baby daughter by leaving her in her dead mother's arms. He was used to getting what he wanted. Relationships could end with me but they had done his terms. The government showed jurors their digital evidence. There was a tremendous amount of electronic data including text text messages and fo messages that she shared with Mister keeney including photos dolores had sent me of her car's odometer to demonstrate its driving range and critical correspondence about what they said was the murder weapon. One particular text message was very important. He's test firing the gun and he texts her saying. This gun is so darn loud. This was part of the prosecutors plan to put Delors as gun in a leaks hands. FBI firearms expert Brad Mills told Jurors about the results of that serial number restoration test he did on the gun recovered from the river. I wound up pulling up all but one of the digits it wound up matching the bill sale for MS Delgado's purchase coaches of the revolver. Is that like a Bingo moment for you. When you put this stuff to the test and it works finding out that the number restored was basically the exact same one windisch was on her bill laden was that was awesome and mills had something else to tell the jury remember he done a test firing like this swath through the barrel of the recovered gun and what happened when you test-fire those bullets in compared them to those bullets from the crime scene and we did our comparison from the victim and Dan we identified those three bullets having been fired from that revolver that was recovered from the creek? The prosecutors introduced that interrogation video of Maliki Ni. I love this. I loved her first. We did that show that the jury would realize that he was being untruthful aw and there was something on the tape that prosecutors wanted to be sure jurors noticed incredibly stupidly he never actually asked asked out of my wife die but the US attorney's new their case would hinge on whether jurors believed their star witness Dolores Delgado Dolores had agreed to cooperate three months after her arrest. I was right before Christmas two. Oh so it was like an early Christmas present early Christmas present for two thousand sixteen. Yes prosecutors argued. Komo leaks longtime mistress would do anything for him on the stand. She backed that up deloris testified about how she gave me her gun in her car. Those gas cans even packed him a sandwich for the drive and provided him with that crucial electronic alibi in your directive Delors. GotTa you said Melissa wasn't home. That night was he. Even she answered no was that the the beginning of the end for his alibi. It is placing him at a location other than were. His phone was was critical for this case. The prosecution rested rested. The defense argued the government had proven nothing they argued someone else did it but maybe jurors should take a closer look look at the government's star witness. Dolores Delgado after all it was her gun disposed of by her ex boyfriend that killed Carlin when ant with Carlin out of the way she'd had Melik alter herself leaks lawyers showed the jury a text from Dolores to a friend rund sent before Carlin's murder. CRAZY BITCH IS GONNA be put out but the jurors didn't buy it they quickly. They found me Tierney guilty Carlin's mother had been in court every day. How did that feel guilty. I was so glad glad because with the guilty verdict. I don't have to worry that I'm going to have any dealings with him. At his sentencing. The judge called Maliki Tierney a Predator and sentenced him to life plus another ten years on top of that Dolores. I still gotta was sentenced to seventeen years for her part in the crime. Why do you think Maliki Carney and Dolores dot did this. I think Maliki Tierney killed Carlin because she was the first woman has life that was willing and able to stand up to him and he couldn't handle that as far as dolores she eh upon to Carney that she would just kind of do whatever he said. It was important to Colin Mira's was important to the baby was important to the Ramirez family to bring them some measure of justice today. The Ramirez family and Carlin's Orleans friends are focused on raising fail and teaching her about her mother my son my only son. Sang She sang to her when she bathe her. She sang to her when she dressed her veil. Here's that loving voice today. Carlin sister put a recording shooting of her singing inside a teddy bear never know Dan. We are at this point the constant in in her life. We want her to feel protected loved everything that I know her. Mom would have given her. That's all for this edition of Dateline. We'll see you again Sunday at ten nine central and of course I'll see you each weeknight for NBC nightly news. I'm Lester Holt two for all of us at NBC News Good Night Hey Hey it's Chris Hayes from MSNBC. Every day. I come to the office and we make television show every day. I think to myself there's so much more. I want to talk about and so this is our podcast. Oh cast it's called. Why is this happening and the whole idea behind it is to get to the root of the things that we see layout every day. They're driven by big ideas each week. I sit down with a person uniquely suited to explain why this is happening new episodes of why is this happening every Tuesday. Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
#277 Carlin Isles
"Now the lace welcome to first glass fatherhood. Welcome to seventy seven the PODCAST. I'm happy as always the be here with you. Thank you for stopping in God. If this is your first time listening to a podcast please get over there and back not subscribe button. You do not want to miss all the action. That's coming your way right here. On first glance fatherhood all right dads. I have an awesome guest. You guys today. He is known as the fastest rugby player. In the world. Carlin Isles will be here with me today and he is. Also an Olympic athlete would hopes of competing in two Olympic sports next year. Call and we'll be here with me and just a few minutes so please stick around for the interview and one of the most important subjects you will hear me speak about. What call is co-parenting situation with the mother of his children? Many of you dads out. There have hit me up with a lot of excuses as to why you were not involved in your children's lives especially when I have guests on the show such as medal title of Honor Recipient Dakota Meyer who is really a great spokesman for single fathers. Now I'm the furthest thing from a relationship expert and this is not a podcast about marriage and believe me. My own marriages had many ups and downs over the last fifteen years. This shows about fatherhood and in my opinion any reason for not being involved in your child's life is just an excuse and most most of the excuses tend to be directed at the hatred that a guy has his ex or some legal issue caused by the ex and many have been hit with a lot harder circumstances than I could ever imagine but none of them or a reason to quit on your children and it is never too late to turn back and begin taking the steps to get back involved in your child's life. There are far too many kids growing up in this country without a father in their life and many because of circumstances that are out of control because the father is either dead or in prison but dads were voluntarily abandoning their responsibility as a father are just tripling our societies and they are definitely missing out on the greatest title that they will ever hold on this earth and that is the title of father all right so as we continue our celebration of fatherhood and family life here here if there is a father that you know that has a strained relationship with his children. It's always a good chance to reach out and let them know. Just how awesome experience. He's missing out on of being a dad had all right so let's go. Tell me spread the word about this podcast any father. That's in your neighborhood or in your contact list and let them know about the show. That is here celebrating fatherhood and Family Life Fatherhood rocks family values rule and every day is father's Day right here with me and I'm GonNa be right back with the world's fastest rugby player Carlin Isles on allegation. You're listening to First-class Fatherhood. Hey dads are you looking. In a boost your energy level strikeforce energy has got you covered with strikeforce energy packet. You can turn any beverage into an energy drink. Their original energy packets contain no sugar or no calories just an explosion of energy and flavor added to any beverage strikeforce energy is veteran owned and all their products are made right here in the United States. Co founded by Navy Seal Sean Mattison strikeforce energy blows away the energy. Drink competition right now. I play his father who listeners can save fifty percent off their purchase by visiting strikeforce energy dot COM com and using the Promo Code Fatherhood strikeforce energy turns any beverage into an energy drink get yours today. STRIKEFORCE ENERGY DOT COM Promo Code. Fatherhood all right and joining me now is the first father. He is known as the fastest rugby player in the world. He did a stint in the NFL with the Detroit lions before switching over to a successful rugby career in which he was featured on the US national team that competed in the two thousand Sixteen Summer Olympics. It is so cool for me to say. Call an aisles. Welcome to First-class Fatherhood Thank you glad to be here. How many kids do you have? And how old are they. I have to Ones by deterrence three and the other was about turnstile. Okay very cool Did you guys do any any kind of gender reveal to find out what you were having their way to the end to find out With almost leading to the end so low surprise so but it was fun. Fun Fun how we did it. Go for any more or are you staying. Pat To right now to right now might go for more later but to as all right now handle all right good enough if you could call. Please just take a minute here to hit my listeners. But a little bit about your background on what you do So play We are USA sevens Does the fastest player in the world. thousand Sixteen Olympian and Aiming for twenty twenty well well they qualify for twenty twenty but also trying to go in for track and field as well so it's a little bit of my background so started playing rugby. Two thousand twelve. I'm I WANNA talk with you before that Kinda salt on the Internet Kinda prayed about it. Guy Gave me a sign of Russian in an end up switching and about a month later got a volunteer USA Development Tour and Canada and then made the squad. Only it'd be for about a year and I kind of took off after that only play only made made a USA rugby team only plan for about a month. So yeah. Wow that's incredible song and I had all these. He's crazy. Experiences are like but how did the experience of becoming a father kind of change your perspective on my One is just a lot of different things you know. Now you know you win. Committee have always been about me. Grima success you know trying to make it and now you bring in two beautiful children and it's not only you have to look out for us for for them and everything you do for them and around them and That's that's the most important thing so it gives you a different purpose in life. Yeah and I think it's awesome to see the the level of commitment that you and your accent made towards co-parenting your mother's Day posted on Instagram. There how did you guys get to that point. What are some of the challenges of co-parenting together So we've got to. That was after that point. We always had a you know. Great Relationship You know I always want to make sure that you know. She's finding they're fine and you know you can't you know you're not it's not about you. it's about them and my thing is always looking out for you know each other and having a best interest and not being bitter whatever the situation is and if you like better than that's when everything goes downhill but for for us it was just like you know we always know we just. I guess she's so cool so common so relaxing so chill and the way my personnel is as well as just that I just I always want the best for people and I always want things to be you know no no bitterness and the heart then so it's like communication is key understanding and you know just just loving generaux so we're regardless of where together not just the love that we have for jogging respect. You know it's it. That's what helped us a lot in that situation and it's tough. Believe me it's tough but you always look at the. You always keep things in a four. We're frightened the right perspective but mostly yeah very well said and you know we are facing a fatherless crisis in the country right now calling. So it's awesome that you are an active that and and even though that the relationship may not have worked out and you guys are doing what it takes to stay active and president of kids lives. Yes Sir And and you know what I say. Rugby here is Kinda caught on quite a bit some high schools. Now have it and we know what's in the Olympics. What advice do you have parents out there whose kids are playing in high school looking to go next level man then The Sky's the limit. You know especially if you want to go next level you can't. I started late. I made it so my thing is if you you know devos does your tired of your crap and understanding of the game and you know that especially you can make it to the next level. They're all being like if you're especially if you WANNA go to the Olympics they do it or you WanNa play overseas professionally. Whatever it is like it's not just football and American like traditional sports? You can go in going well being Fisher Fisher James and you know make make a name and make life for yourself and then make life even after that so a lot of connections as you can make and Wherever you end up staring going that you know there's always a pathway that can be paid but stops by doing and not just you know believing in something by actually put in the the footsteps to do it you'll never become what you're not being on a day-to-day basis mesquite. Yeah yeah well see I asked the NFL dad's about this like what's a good age for kids to start playing tackle football because of all the reports is there. Is there a Russian issue with rugby as well. And what is it good as for kids start playing they start playing any as as I think. I think one thing about resumes that they teach you how to tackle properly. And that's mostly football going up. You know you just League League which had it and all those other types of things but what they teach you wanNA WANNA tackle. And it's all on the controlled so more you can do it at a younger age each better because it's it's GonNa be ingrained and instilling you early and you know great habits and you know great. I don't there's not a lot of concussions. She's going SALONA. Yeah that's that's pretty cool. And how much did you know about rugby before you started playing. What was the genesis of getting involved in it so I had no idea about rugby? Beforehand like never watched it One of my high school friends Winston it. When I was in high school and I was he was just like tackle like football with no pads? And I'm like no thank you because I want to get my teeth and stuff and I know like not is to get that so all all about it and then two thousand twelve came and I was studying Sam because I like mechanics type stuff and not following Internet. I saw this big field. Where like seven guys on South Five Fifteen NFL seven? Oh Man I think I'd be pretty good. I I played football growing up. So that's Kinda got me into it. I just started watching watching him awesome. Yeah now do your kids come to see you play come to train or do they get a chance to see the games. Yeah yeah they do They got to see me in Vegas if they want to come and see me I in La La this year. So hopefully I get to come to her. Two Olympics I was in. My son is being a handful. But that'd be great as hello so yeah they're gonNa get to see me on TV and then Last nothing beats in American flag made in the USA right. Well how about an American flag made in the USA by veterans out of duty worn for teams from all branches in the military. That is exactly what you get with. Combat flags combat flags are handcrafted from duty ward fatigues and offer tangible piece of freedom to the American people each flag is accompanied by professionally designed and printed card that tells the story of service of Soldier Marine Airmen Sailor Costa who wore the fatigues us to make the flag. They are the real deal. Dad So what are you waiting for. VISIT COMBAT FLAGS FLAGS DOT COM and. Use the Promo Code father and I last fatherhood listeners. We'll save ten percent off. Their purchase veteran owned American made combat flags dot Com Promo all code. Father All all right guys many of you have hit me up saying that you would like to start your own podcast than I am telling you right now. Anchor is the easiest way to get this done number. One it's free. I have never paid a dime to publish any of my podcasts. And their creation tools. Allow you to record and edit right from your phone or your computer anchored those all the distribution as well so it can be heard on spotify apple podcast and many more also you can make money with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. What are you waiting for? Download the the free anchor APP today or go to anchor dot. FM to get started. Go Yeah that's awesome. What Zyppah disciplinarian are you calling as a data bank or a time out guy how do you kind of handle discipline with the kids so so I'm tired? I've tried a bunch of different the things I don't try to revert to spanking but I do I tried Just a conversation. That didn't help. My son was a hand food but for me personally like I don't speak a lot but if I got two or three with it then they stay straighten up I think that's the best for me. Even I tell them and I always knows tell them why or give them love even afterwards. But I'm just like you understand understand like there's a choice the choices you make their comes consequence was always trying to tell you want to do what's right and they always x. y.. anyways and always tell them why so I just thought it was still in the early Great Values and understanding that everything they do if you keep doing it. That's the choice. So do you WANNA weapon because you keep acting this way. Then you want to get to work and that's your choice so for me. That's that's what I do We tried it too much but now that they get older. We don't don't do it as much more this but understanding but yeah so that's why we that's how I kind of go about. It could stop and do you have the five year old involving avenue sports or activities yet. Oh man she's she's done so the my little one he's a he's a he's the boy my oldest WANNA sue. She's a girl she does dance. Domestic Shin do soccer But like we'll go out and raise a lot And she's like she's fast not only that she could run like long. So I'm like okay. She's GonNa be my girl but my son is like he almost built like me so he'll be fast too so I'm excited for the hammer starts stuff stuff stuff with my daughter loves swimming. She can swim her butt off So yeah I'm just getting everything but she's really smart so that's a big plus for us. Well well 'cause you know high in China Calix so yeah I got him in activities. Yeah that's how about as far as I know for a lot of us. Parents is dealing with the technology street. Time the IPAD monitor all that with your kids. That's a good thing so The mother now we we always talk because like especially. She works nights so she worked from like seven to three and then she'll get up but I mean I have to travel back and forth because I'm in Austin I've been in there but she would like give them the ipads in the morning just a little bit because they wanna play and you just give time so she can go to sleep but we try to limit because harlow wants to be. That's my she wants to be an IPAD on the time and we'll and we'll be like Oh my God we gotta stop get them in a in a technology so much and go no player goes on and then what we usually do anyway. Because I'm always trying to teach them how to read or do this and do that at my daughter so smart and they pick up stuff even when it comes to technology stuff world but we try to limit that as much as possible because man they become addicted to it. Yeah Yeah I'm facing that same problem I show up four kids myself and I'm having trouble double with some of them so It definitely a challenge for sure and one thing to call them. Because you are co-parenting I know a lot of single DADS listened to the podcast. You're one of the things they struggle with a lot is. When is the right time? Introduce a new potential spouse to your children. So at what point do you think you'd have to get to in a new relationship introduced. I do Potential spouse do your kids man. That is a very very good question. I think it becomes a point. Where and it's almost? It's almost scary at a sense. You know because it's just like someone else in them. As a lot of unfamiliarity that'll happen and then just like understanding MOMS who daddy's new partner and getting the kids to try to understand that accepting. I think they will eventually. But even just the awkwardness route. Think at the same time. There's as many time it gets everything but it's just like once you get to not one very well and this is somebody that okay you can see that you can spend your life with and then you saw okay uh-huh and then understanding okay. They notice situation as well. And then okay and then having a conversation with that partner whether it was a girl guy whatever it is and then come into points out okay. Would you like to meet my kids. And then if they say yeah they feel comfortable. Then you go about it so I think you have to have a talk with your partner. And then if they're comfortable and then talk then you have to have a talk with your ex and they have to be comfortable so it's just like all parties gotta be comfortable with it so if you build it if you have a good relationship. What's your extra whoever it is then I think it'd it's a lot easier? Yeah I know it's a lot easier said than done and I can only imagine it's awesome to see that level of commitment that you do have That's going on you find your kids here What what's next for you call it? What kind of goals you have for yourself? You jerk so most feature I definitely want to be no I WANNA be around my kid's life a lot more. It's hard because I travel to so many different countries and I just want to be there for them so then okay okay. Well I'M GONNA I'm GonNa make that happen and trying to figure that out Seeing if okay I'm GONNA do another four years or I'm a you know. Stop for a little bit of year to take a year off and then maybe go back to it and then figure out you know what I WANNA do. I like okay if I move here then. Okay what I'm GonNa do so job. Wise is and then Just mostly just trying to be there for them more so especially as my kids start getting into sports more and I want to continue to you know bill good care it doesn't instill good buyers in them. I think I WANNA do that really early as possible. So that's one of my big things has been around for them more. You're still in good bye into them. So so that they they know how to operate and working those world because his world is no joke. The very well last thing I wanna hit you with your calling. I love to ask all the data. Has it again the podcast. What's happening advice? Do you have that new dad or for that about to be father who's out there listening. the gets a new dad That's out there or listen about to listen or maybe no no. They're wanting to sooner or later but anyway my thing is to always be consistent. I mean the the thing is consistency of everything. And you know there's never how can I say this as as you can't do things when it's convenient and you know you gotta learn how to you know work through issues regardless of what it is goes through it you know you can't you know put stuff on hold and try to go back to it and then when things are good they'd come out. I think you always gotta work through these days worth two issues have good communication skills Because sit there and think about the whole pitcher pitcher. Don't think about just one problem or one thing about how everything affects XYZ regardless of what it is because you can become so close minded so so I think when you when you look at this from a the right perspective and hope pitcher save you a lot of time and save you a lot of you know Being being tired. You know problems and things like that. So the main thing is you know just just have great body in the foundation of the man because I think it helps you with everything I think the father and then everything general in life. Yeah very well settled the message. There's been an honor for me. Say Calling I'll thank you so much time on. I last bothersome man. I appreciate you so much Back to wrap things up here. I last fatherhood I got special. Thank you once again to call in aisles. Giving me a few minutes of his time here it was so cool. Pleased me up on twitter. The Guy who dropped me over on instagram thought about today's episode three feedback locking. It's got a very special warrior Wednesday edition of the PODCAST ear former F sixteen fighter your pilot. David Gantner who went to call sign. Finch is going to be joining me here Thursday we have heisman trophy winner Carson Palmer stopping by the podcast and Friday. We return to our frogman in Friday format of the show retired Navy seal and dog musher up in Alaska. Jeff Reed will be here. That's going to be a lot of fun so please keep it locked in here. That's all I got for you guys today. I M Malik lease. You have been listening to. I play fatherhood and
"Book Talk" Guest Peter Ames Carlin Author "Homeward Bound The Life of Paul Simon"
"The big Mac chicken mcnuggets no big MAC and quarter pounder with cheese are fully O. Fish. You'd be doing the same thing if you were at McDonald's because you can choose not just one, but two of your favorites for just six bucks. Tasty. Big Mac, crispy ten piece chicken mcnuggets, juicy quarter pounder with cheese or savory filet O. Fish enjoy two of your all time favorites for Justice Bucks. If you can decide on the two prices, participation may vary can be combined with any other offer or Combo meal single item at regular. Price. Welcome now man who's written a really fascinating broke about the one of the most interesting and fascinating musicians of all time. It's called homeward bound the life of Paul. Simon. Were joined today by Peter Ames Carlin, out in Oregon today in the. How you? Thank you Yeah. You're exactly right. Portland Oregon is where I'm sitting at this very moment. Raining. Everybody asks you that probably right. Not, at the moment. Do. That time of year. Grew up in New York in a little bit about Paul. Sam? Because he was a Queens Queens Guy. But I guess like most people we know a lot about his personal life or background and. Kind of make people interested in in his life, all the music, but the backstory is kind of fascinating. Yeah I think. So I mean you know I it's fascinating to to to read and understand how much the immigrant experience growing up with family that had had come fairly recently from from eastern. Europe was. And the story of of their family over the generations is the same, know just a version of the story. So many millions of Americans lived of moving from the old. World Orthodoxy, into the new world simulation and the whole sort of flexibility of identity that goes along with it. I feel like you know when you listen to Paul's work over the years and how he's moved from style to style and culture to culture, and then eventually from nation to nation to nation, and it's kind of that same process you know putting part of a unique part of. Of himself into the language and rhythms of completely different culture and finding the kind of harmony between them and you know, and that's what I hear a lot in the music and I think He doesn't always address it in, you know specifically in his lyrics, but but I just think the sounds that he pulls together speak volumes about it. He rarely did interviews I mean once in a while they being a talk show or something, and they talk or a minute or two, but never really heard him on TV going in depth about his. Music at least I haven't. I haven't seen much. You find anything researcher. Some length about things over the years, but it's one of those interesting things where you know he'll talking to somebody about a particular record or what's going on in his life at that moment, and he'll have different reflections on his past as he as he goes through. He's never really done the kind of consistent on point sort of auto biographical interviews that a biographer would with need to do We one reason why he he didn't WanNA cooperate with me on this book. but there are plenty of you know, I mean, there are interviews going back as far as You know when he was in high school for the High School newspaper after he and art, Garfunkel had their first hit in nineteen fifty seven when they were performing as Tom and Jerry. And even then he was saying that he was going to retire. that. Once he already got the college that these this rock and roll days would be behind them for good. So Yeah, he says, I. Don't give the impression. I mean at least from watching them on TV, and stuff. Kind of introspective guy doesn't been really like you know like an performing think but not really talking about himself much. So that's the impression. I getting an even around people. He knew well kind of a low key guys that the impression you get. To one of his best friend. was. In. College and you know in the late fifties and early sixties and they were quite close at the time and I asked this fellow. This was a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago what it was like when Paul, Paul. With both thriving as as a student named, Paul. Simon at Queens College. But afternoons, he'd get A. Town and. Pursue his career as Jerry Landis, the pop singer songwriter producer, and I asked the guy. What was it like? Did you know about Paul's work as Jerry Landis. And he said, Jerry who you know I've never heard that word. I've never heard that name before and he was like silent for a sec when I told him all about it and it was like I had no idea. There is that interesting kind of compartmentalization where you know there was a there. There's a whole community of people who knew him as Jerry Landis and had no idea that he was a college student in Queens and the other half of his life. If people just knew him as the student had no idea that he was still working as a pop musician. So? Yeah. He's very sort of compartmentalized and and sort of unto himself in that way. It'd be pressure from knowing a little bit about them not much obviously, but reading your book the relationship between he and Art Garfunkel, he'd almost parallels between the Dean Martin Jerry. Lewis. Great success early, and then they broke up and really never quite got along that. Well, they worked together a few times, but went on their separate careers and Paul seem to have the better career after that. But I guess they both did pretty well, right? Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. Any already had really had hit after hit in the seventies. I mean they weren't as he wasn't as big or as really sort of culturally consuming as as Paul was you. You know, and he kinda recorded more and sort of a pop music realm. But still you know through the late seventies, he was having their, he had hits on the charts like you know frequently and of course was also pursuing acting career, which was fairly successful at times So yeah, they both sort of follow their own stars and in and continue to do the same though You know there have been kind of wonderful moments when they've resumed their partnership at least as a performing duo and occasionally recording something together and talking about doing record. But there's still that dissonance between them that that SORTA seemed to keep them apart. From College Radio they did one of their concerts I. Guess that was one of them in central. Park and other did a couple of them. But that was huge back in the early eighties wasn't exactly right in the summer of nineteen, eighty one and it was within within a year of when John Lennon had been shot, and you know on the streets of New York City and I think for you know the baby boom generation, which was just then I think heading into its mid late thirties. Early Forties the idea just. Just sort of the symbolism of Simon and Garfunkel sort of restoring their partnership and their brotherhood and singing those songs just as beautifully as it had ever done was kind of a powerful statement. You know of you know you can go home again. Maybe you can go back to the days of innocence and and optimism like those are the those things are still out there waiting forrest. We hear them now in the voices of of Simon and Garfunkel but you know again that that reunion wasn't to last either talking about again. The different styles, Paul Simon had and writing songs it so many hits. But like you said, there were totally different types of songs from the sound of silence to Song. Like fifty ways to leave your lover. Totally, different types of songs but but he he really kind of spread the gamut. Didn't he? Yeah. He really did and I think again that that that ongoing process. Uh of of innovation and discovery is you know one of the reasons why his career spans, you know the mid fifties, no, the the height of Elvis and You know all the way to the spring. You know when when the single wristband from his album stranger to stranger came out and it was being played heavily on college radio. Alongside artist sewer, young enough to be his grandchildren. Really, is kind of a throwback, any talk about it in the book to feel Brill Building. The place where all the songwriters kind of hung out and wrote their music, he kind of bridges, the gap between the and forties and fifties those people, and then current way where you just kind of do it on your own. Yeah. Exactly. So it's a very interesting story in that sense because just because so much of American history sort of right through the middle of it. You know he was involved in, you know in various ways and everything from the civil rights movement in the late fifties and early sixties in America through, you know started the Hippie era at the Monterey pop festival All the way up through the start of Saturday night live, which he played a role in in the mid seventies, and then you know obviously his role in. The anti-apartheid movement and causing a lot of static there in the mid eighties, and you know, and just onwards and onwards and onwards toll till today. He's appreciated In the business are among the public is much, should be looked at the body of work It's amazing what he's turned out well I. Think you mentioned the hundred million copies of his records that have sold. So I think that's a form of appreciation But on the other hand, you know, I mean who knows he always had this? Huge. Rivalry with Bob Dylan especially in the sixties when they were young and and at the height of their ambition and and competitiveness it always felt like he got the worst of it when people compared him to dylan and really resented that comparison and I noticed that when Bob Dylan was awarded the Nobel? Prize. For Literature that the day they announced that was October thirteenth with with also having to be Paul Simon Seventy fifth. Birthday. So. Sort of an odd coincidence. I wonder if what what he thought of that I guess grudgingly with with the wishing well, but probably inside a little rivalry. So all right. A little echo of a rivalry SORTA. Vulcan again, anybody WHO's a music fan even weren't around that era I kind of caught the tail end of it, but and again the movie they did the graduate I mean not too many rock and roll stars scored movies. So that was a kind of a coup in itself. You talk about that in the book. And that was the first to I mean, and that's of course, right? You know months after the Monterey pop festival or when they were when when that. a movie came out and it was such an enormously groundbreaking movie and their music was such a big part of it But that also held the seat of their destruction in some way because Mike Nichols cast both of them and their next move his next movie catch twenty two. But then he had to write Paul's part out of the script and already went onto become kind of. A movie star for a while, which was part of the conflict that broke up signing Garfunkel. were, using that exactly. He played the lead and carnal knowledge and. He did. Act and Jack Nicholson was there. Was Good. Well. Let's it. Well, homeward bound is the name of the Book and limited time, but it's about the life of the Great Paul Simon Peter. Ames Carlin has been our guest pdf a website. You wanted to direct people to get more information on the book. Sure. Simple Peter Ames Carlin dot com, and there's blog and all kinds of fun and interesting. Things, they're. Talking, to you and congratulations on the book, and hopefully, we can talk again. But thanks for being with us today. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. I'm stanbrook. So two years ago I formed remote area medical to help people overseas. But then we found generations of families in America isolated by policy from the healthcare they need. Together, we can take dental vision and medical help to a million adults and their kids. Right, here at home in the United, states of America. Not.
Moment of the Day (08-16-19)
"All right moment of the day is brought to you by resorts world casino in queens with over six thousand games. This is how n._y._c. roles. I learned live on the air trying to play something something that did go on the air yesterday. We weren't allowed to play it here. Even though it was really funny from carlin and bar yesterday <hes> basically they were breaking down pat shurmur as compared to rex ryan trying to be yourself as a coach and whatnot and since we can't play that portion i will just tell you that bart was relating it the foot fetish video with rex to porn hub and and his wife and it got really weird but here's here's what happened but those guys spicing it up yesterday guy spices but he wound up the foot fetish video to begin with yeah. I guess i guess never eight seven seven. I close out tell me go. Ah god so nervous in those spots. I feel like would bar bar starts going down like crazy borrowed the truck kids that word no kit do that walk tonight green indians. How hot are they all right. So we go from porn offensive line talk about ross tucker there you go so we weren't allowed to play. They got away with it yesterday. What we're a little bit stricter around here bobby when probably moves into the al dukes chair. He's not letting anything slide man that at-bat becomes a superpower chair yeah his trigger finger question to dump it in the back. Nobody knows.
Moment of the Day (8/18/20)
"You've worked so hard for all the things you've. The salary the status success. With that image, there's a drink. One wide want to loosen up wanted to take the edge off. But. How do you know what a drink is more than just a drink? We get it. We can help. Karen's grandview program has been helping accomplish people just like you regain their lives. Talk to. visit. Karen Dot Org, slash grant few. Moments So we got our buddy Chris Carlin joining cameo and offering his time to fans and listeners, and then our reminiscent about this male themed apparatus, he wants to calm within while working in Tampa and you can put both in the category of ideas that sounded good at the time. Isn't it? Amazing how the human brain works where like you get to a point where using that is exciting is Great and then it then. Done with it there's this shame guilt. What is that? That's the brain. It's hormones in the brain I it's. Like you go from. Idea right. I am the most. Recent know. So fouled. What was that from? Cameo. Dollars. Now they're field day for Eddie earlier today and we had some fun with that Oh. My goodness that full segment. If you can go back and listen to the whole thing, I would recommend it. Because it was it was tremendous. Alright. CEELO. Thanks man. We'll see you tomorrow. Utd. Remember that. Rucker's highlights. How is that a rutgers highlights Noel? It was in edit so I did the edit where he called. Touch. Data Ray Rice, touchdown, and then I put that at the end of it because I was another one of those things he was recording a commercial and a personal endorsement and at the end of it he said and I'M A. A Hor-. Yeah. So I took I took that. The crowd put the crowd noise over it and attach it to the highlight sound. Yeah. It sounds exact. It looked like it came straight from on the tremendous. Yeah. Put a lot of work into that Okay. boomer and Geo on the fan CBS sports. Network. I never thought that those two clips from earlier. Would ever make it to the air. And both of them did today amazed you'll be hearing Carlin shortly I'm sure. Yeah. Outside the punched in the face. A pull him out.
Alaskan Love Triangle Pt. 2 - Mechele Linehan
"If you haven't listened to survival yet, you should check it out right away. Survival tells high intensity stories about people in life or death situations and explores the strategies they use to stay alive. It's truly fascinating search for and subscribe to survival wherever you listen to podcasts, and please don't forget to rate and review. Due to the graphic nature of this woman's crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of murder that some people may find offensive we advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. By two thousand six thirty three year old Michelle Hughes Lenihan was living out her dreams. Mary to a successful, handsome, doctor and raising a family on Washington, scenic, Olympic peninsula, just sixty miles from Seattle. She took advantage of all the Pacific northwest had to offer participating in kayaking, biking, hiking and rock climbing. She was also an avid reader and gardener and well known in her circle of friends for her wonderful dinner parties, if you asked anyone who knew her they would comment on how caring she was once when a contractor was caught stealing from her. She told the police that she forgave him. He described her as very compassionate and very understanding after a rough early life. Michelle had finally found everything she ever wanted little did she know her old life in Alaska would soon come knocking after a cold case unit uncover. New evidence. Michelle was about to be charged with the murder of Kent lep Inc. Picture a murderer a gangster a thief. Did you picture a woman? We didn't think so society associates men with dangerous crimes. But what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday. We examine the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals. Hi, I'm Sammy ni-, and I'm Vanessa Richardson. And you're listening to female criminals on the podcast network. We're once again joined by Laney Hobbs, the host of par casts. New podcast crimes of passion. Her show follows passionate crimes exploring what manipulates relationships into deadly results. Thanks, vanessa. Hello, female, criminals listeners this week. We continue the story of Michelle Lenihan one of Alaska's most notorious murder suspects accused of convincing a man to kill her fiance. Ken lep Inc. In nineteen Ninety-six. She wasn't actually charged with his. Death until two thousand six after a cold case unit discovered. New damning evidence that pointed to Michelle at par cast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know Howard doing reach out on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help us. We also now have merchandise. Head depar- cast dot com slash merch. For more information. In our last episode. We explored the early life of Michelle Hughes, Linda Han in pursuit of a better life. She moved to Alaska where she earned big bucks as one of anchorages most popular exotic dancers. We also discussed the multiple romantic relationships. She was tangled in Michelle juggled three engagements at the same time in nineteen ninety-five creating a breeding ground for jealousy that eventually led to Kim's murder this week. We'll see how investigators uncovered new evidence finally leading to Michelle's arrest and trial. Before he was killed in may of nineteen ninety six can't send a letter to his parents, Kenan Betsy warning them that something bad might happen to him. He included another letter in the envelope instructing his parents to only read that second letter if something bad happened to him when they learned of his murder, Kenan Betsy opened the second envelope. This letter from the grave pointed the finger at his fiancee, Michelle Hughes, and their two housemates John Carlin, and Scott Hilty, but the letter was considered hearsay. And the case went nowhere by the summer of nineteen ninety six Michelle, Scott, and John had all moved away from Alaska and Kent's murder investigation. Went cold the unsolved murder haunted. The detectives who worked on the case for years in two thousand and two when Alaska received a federal grant to open a cold case unit. The Kent leaping case was a top priority. The file was assigned to inexperienced retired state trooper named Jim stocks dill. He had already worked a few cold cases since the unit's inception and had success. He was partnered with detective Linda Blanchflower, a retired investigator with the Anchorage police department, one of the first pieces of evidence that caught Jim Zai with something referred to as the hope note not much was made of it during the initial investigation, but Jim founded suspicious. The help note was a letter from John Carlin to Michelle and forming her that she was invited to use a cabin. He recently purchased in hope Alaska hope was nearest town to the site or Kent Leppings body was discovered. Carlin wrote that he had fixed the roof and cleaned the fireplace. He added at the end you guys. Enjoy your stay Michelle inexplicably. Wrote back on the note. Quote, great, please don't let anyone know where we're at love you. And thanks. Again, and quote, but there was no record that John ever owned a cabin in. Hope Jim came to the conclusion that the note was a hoax intended for Kent defined and make him jealous. Jim theorized that John Michell wrote the note to Lord Kintu hope thinking he would catch Michelle with another man, but Michelle was in Lake Tahoe with Scott hill, Katie, and there was no cabinet and hope, but evidently, the note worked can't drove to hope in the throws of despair and jealousy he stopped in town and showed Michelle's picture to everyone. He met desperate for information on her whereabouts. This was clearly unhealthy before we dig into Kent psychology. Just a quick disclaimer Vanessa's, not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy can't had a long history of paranoia over Michelle's relationships with other men once even flying across the country to check up on her. According to Dr. Carey baron. This functional type of paranoia is associated with delusional disorder of the persecutory type sufferers see themselves as especially perceptive and can sometimes act out with Gresley behavior or schemes based on what they think they perceive once the help note planted the suggestion in cans mind that Michelle was in a cabin with another man he had to investigate, but he didn't find Michelle in the arms of her lover. The only thing he found was death. In addition to this new theory about the hope note years after Kent's death police had another break through. Thanks to reason advancements in technology in the original investigation police seized two computers, including the gateway laptop that Michelle had instructed her sister to wipe clean, but they hadn't found anything of us using new forensic software. Hundreds of deleted emails were recovered. According to detective, Linda branch flower. They were able to pull up emails between Kenton, Michelle, Michelle and Carlin, and Michelle hill, Katie the described different aspects of their relationship, the emails elicited Michelle's manipulation of the men in her life one exchange between Michelle and Ken read, quote, you should not be concerned about John. He's more of a brother or even a father to me, and quote, but then she turned around and E mail John buttering him up writing quote. You are the most important thing in my life. I need you more than you will ever know. And quote, of course, being manipulative didn't make Michelle murderer. But detectives also came across an Email that seemed more sinister than the rest, which they referred to as the Seychelles Email. It was sent just days before Kent's body was discovered on may second nineteen Ninety-six. Michelle wrote to John, quote, did you know that you can buy citizenship in the Seychelles for around ten million. No matter what crimes you have committed. They will not extradite and quote detective saw this as a clear indication that Michelle was considering starting a new life somewhere. She could guarantee her freedom, the restored emails and the hope note were a great start. But investigators were determined to find something more concrete, namely the missing murder weapon. Kent had been shot with an unusual gun a forty four caliber desert eagle back in nineteen Ninety-six. John Carlin had denied owning a gun when questioned by police Michelle had suggested that Kent owned a desert eagle, but police were unable to locate the firearm, it was Linda branch flower who finally found information that John was lying about the gun. And she heard it from an unlikely source John sun Yung John at the time of cans murder. John had prevented thirties from interviewing his seventeen year old son alone. Both Jim and Linda suspected that young John could provide some key evidence. They were able to locate him into coma Washington in may of two thousand five Linda and Jim flew to Tacoma and surprised young John at work, although initially hesitant about being interviewed young John eventually confided in the investigators. He maintain. Pained that his father did not murder Kent lep Inc. Even going so far to say that he believed John Carlin wasn't involved in any way. However, he recalled that shortly after Kent's body was found a gun fell out of a closet in his dad's house, Michelle and John had panicked. When young John picked it up and the immediately washed the gun with bleach in the bathroom sink. Young. John was also certain his father had purchased forty four desert eagle shortly after they arrived in Alaska. When Linda returned from interviewing young, John. She started looking for evidence to back up his claims, she went to the Anchorage daily news and requested access to its catalog of previous editions in less than two hours. She found a classified ads selling a forty four desert eagle the ad was placed in January of nineteen ninety-five six weeks after Carlin had arrived in Alaska, Linda was even able to find the seller who confirmed he sold the gun to a man, but he wasn't positive. It was Carlin when Linda showed him a picture still the combination of the hope note, the recovered emails and young John statement about the gun in the closet was enough new evidence for investigators to present the case to a grand jury in the fall of two thousand six over a decade after can't let pink was found dead. Michelle Hughes Lenihan and John Carlin were indicted for his murder on October fourth two thousand six. Olympia. Police knocked on the front door of Michelle and Colin Linda, hands suburban home. Call an answered Michelle was out running errands. The police informed him that they had a warrant for Michelle's arrest. They told Colin he had one hour to produce her even going so far to say we can do this in a small way or in a big way within the hour. Michelle, Colin and their lawyer arrived at the Olympia police station. Michelle was arrested and placed on a flight to Anchorage that night Cullen, followed her north a few days later. Rich galleries avail bondsman recount his encounter with the young doctor at the Anchorage jail. He was struck by how devastated Colin seemed by what was happening to his wife across the country in New Jersey. John Carlin learned that. Alaska state troopers were going to arrest him to avoid a confrontation with police at his home Carlin flew to Anchorage and turned himself in just days after the indicted. Came down. Michelle was released on bail a few weeks after her arrest and allowed to return home wearing an electron ankle bracelet unable to post bail Carlin remained in the Anchorage jail, pending his trial scheduled for March. Seventh two thousand seven. Coming up the judgment of John Carlin begins, and it quickly becomes apparent that Michelle and her racy past are on trial too. Are you in debt if you are, you know, it's not easy to get alone. And if you don't have a good credit history, it can be even harder. If this position sounds familiar to you the best thing to do is to go to upstart dot com. You see up start is revolutionizing the way people borrow money instead of basing decisions on the traditional FICO score. Upstart goes beyond that and actually rewards you for your job experience and education in the form of a smarter interest rate. You can check your rate in two minutes, and it won't affect your credit score. And once your loan is approved the funds are transferred to you the very next business day. If you're drowning in high interest credit card debt or student loan debt, consolidate everything into one monthly payment with upstart there's no prepayment penalty. So you can pay off your loan at anytime. No doubt. Upstart could have helped me a lot with my student loan debt. See why upstart is ranked number one in their category with over three hundred businesses on trust pilot and hurried up start dot com slash criminals to find out how low your upstart rate is checking your rate only takes two minutes and won't affect your credit. That's upstart dot com slash criminals. What would you do to stay alive? What do you drink your own urine? Would you? Wade through snake infested water, would you cut off your own arm? I think I'm a no to all of those things. I definitely couldn't cut off my own arm. You might be surprised at the links you'd go to in order to stay alive. Every week the par cast network show. Survival tells the high intensity stories of people in life or death situations and explores the strategies they use to survive survival. Also, examines the lasting psychological effects of living through a traumatic event, and what it's like to return to normal life. The stories of survival are extraordinary, but the people in them are regular people like you and me, and they exemplify the human spirits ability to triumph over deadly adversity. New episodes come out every Monday search for and subscribe to survival wherever you listen to podcasts again searched survival or visit park cast dot com slash. Survival to listen now survival. How far would you go to stay alive? Now back to the story. Nearly a decade after Kent Leppings murder cold case investigators had finally cracked the case wide open in October of two thousand six thirty three year old Michelle Hughes, Lynn, Eoghan and forty nine year old John Carlin were arrested for the crime from the start their separate trials, drew international media attention. The elements of the story seemed made in tabloid heaven an extra per turn doctor's wife, multiple engagements a million dollar insurance policy and a letter from the grave written by the victim pointing the finger at his fiancee, the Linda hands Olympia neighbors were shocked by the charges levied against Michelle. None of them knew about her past as a stripper or anything about her time in Alaska, according to one neighbor, quote, she's Michelle a great gal. She's one of the sweetest people. I know I don't think I've ever been so shocked my whole life and quote after leaving Alaska MC. Shell appeared to have made a complete one eighty in her life. According to Dr Romeo Vitelio of York University, while many factors of our personality are set by the time, we reach adulthood, emotional trauma and life changing events can change fundamental traits in a person it's possible that the chain of events that led to Kent's death. Also led to a change in Michelle's worldview, her manipulations of the people around her had escalated past her control leading to a man's death. When she started a new life in New Orleans, she may have done. So with a new outlook that changed how she treated others Michelle's family and friends and Olympia stuck by her. They told anyone who would listen that it was impossible that this devoted mother and wife could have possibly committed such a heinous crime. The Alaska district attorney decided to try John and Michelle separately for Kent's murder because of the differences in their involvement. Prosecutor Pat Gullikson would prove that John Carlin fired the gun, but it was Michelle who had convinced him to do. So under Alaska law. They could both be convicted of first degree murder. John's trial was I it began on March. Seventh two thousand seven Gulf sin pulled no punches in his opening statements describing Kent's murder as an execution. He showed the jurors a series of gruesome crime scene photos before dramatically ending on an image of Kent, and Michelle happily posing together Gullickson told the jury, quote, it's a story that's going to involve passion, greed, manipulation and deception, and it's those explosive forces and the actions of John Carlin and of Michelle Hughes that just exploded. Did on Kent limping in late April of nineteen ninety six and led to his death and quilt Gullikson. I called a psychoanalyst to the stand. He testified about the psychology behind the three shots that killed Kent. He described the first two shots as business and the third shot the one that hit Kent in the face as personal next Gullickson, presented the hope note to the jury as proof that Michelle and John had lured Kent to hope Alaska to kill him. He followed this with the hundreds of recovered emails. The messages told an intriguing story of the Carlin household in the final months of Kent's life. Linda branch flower testified, but the emails proved Carlin was completely controlled by Michelle in one message. He wrote, quote, Michelle is the one I do anything in the world for including give up my life, and quote brench flower, also testified about the. Seychelles Email, and how Michelle appeared to be instructing John Carlin on how he could find a safe haven from the law, but Gulf since final witness young John was the most devastating. He once again described seeing a gun in his father's house quote. I remember coming around the corner and seeing Michelle in my father, and there was a firearm in the sink, and the sink was about half full with a clear liquid and quote when Gullikson rested his case, he was confident that although circumstantial he had presented a compelling argument that John Carlin had conspired to murder Kent lep Inc. John's defense attorneys, Sydney Billingsley countered young John's testimony had on he accused young John of having an affair with Michelle bind his father's back. And that he was the one who fired the shot that killed Kent lep Inc. He presented search warrants and other documents from the original nineteen Ninety-six investigation. That indicated young John was considered a suspect early on Billingsley called young John's ex girlfriend Adela Peres to the stand the two had dated from the summer of nineteen ninety five to the spring of nineteen Ninety-six. She testified that young John was a compulsive liar. And that while he was always bizarre. He had become increasingly volatile around the end of their relationship, which coincided with the timing of Kent murder Billingsley next called a neighbor who testified that a few weeks after the murder. She saw young John climb onto the roof of the house, retrieve an IT. Mm-hmm. Hidden in the gutter and then climb back through a window Billingsley speculated that the neighborhood witnessed young John hiding the desert eagle on the roof. So that police wouldn't find it. If Michelle is concerned about the speculation on the nature of her relationship with young John. She didn't show it. She attended his father's trial one day and passed young John outside the courthouse. She ran up to him and hugged him walking away with tears in her eyes. In addition to presenting John's own son as an alternative suspect. Billingsley took aim at the recovered emails stressing how Embiid US they actually were he presented additional messages to indicate that Kent and John Carlin were actually friends despite the hill. Michelle put them through one Email from Kent to John read, quote, I value my friendships more than I value most things thanks for being a friend, and quote, he also claimed that the hope note was a prank by John. Shell they wanted to mislead Kent. So that Michelle could visit Scott healthy and California without Kent, interrupting them as he had done in the past in his closing arguments. Billing clear reminded the jury that can't would still be alive were not from shells expert, deception and manipulation tactics. He said, quote, the amount of juggling that she can do is extensive she's manipulative, greedy and has an explosive temper when she's crossed people don't do what she wants them to do. She explodes and quote the jury deliberated for two days, then returned with verdict on April third two thousand seven they found John Carlin guilty of murder in the first degree Billingsley asked to delay. Giancarlo in sentencing hearing until after Michelle's trial in the fall of two thousand seven the prosecutor agreed and judge volunteers set. John sentencing for November ninth two thousand seven. Dell's trial began in September of two thousand seven she also faced judge volunteer and Pat Gulf sin which proved to be a major strike against her. As was the case with John Carlin Gulf sinned, did not have to prove that Michelle fired the gun herself to find her guilty of first degree murder. He told the court, quote, if it wasn't for Michelle Lenihan, Kent lep Inc would still be alive today. All she needed was somebody to do the dirty work somebody to pull the trigger and quote galitsin called many of the same witnesses that appeared at Johns trial and presented much of the same evidence, including the hope note and Seychelles Email. He took aim at Michelle's new image. As a suburban housewife saying, quote underlying, the whole defense is that she's a changed woman that doesn't mean that we forget about a murder that she was involved in an instrumental and committing eleven years ago, and quote to keep the focus on Michelle CD past Gullickson called another dancer from the Alaskan Bush company, Laura espionage to the stand Laura claim that she and Michelle watched the movie. The Last Seduction together in the film, Linda Fiorentino's character manipulates her lover and killing her husband for seven hundred thousand dollar payout. Eventually letting him take the fall as she walks away. Scot-free Laura testified that after they were finished watching the movie Michelle said that she wanted to be just like Linda Fiorentino, but under cross examination Laura story fell apart her memory was hazy when she was pressed on certain details when her diary was brought into evidence. It was revealed that she had actually watched the movie with her husband, however, Laura's testimony was so juicy it ended up dominating the news coverage of the trial gulfs and also called the life insurance agent who issued the million dollar policy for Kent to the stand. The agent testified that Michelle called just days before the murder to check whether or not the policy was still in effect. The state trooper who interviewed Michelle. The day after Kent's murder testified about her demeanor. During the interview he said, quote, I've done a lot of death notification. And it just seemed to me she lacked a bit of sincerity and quote once again Gullickson called young John to the stand. He repeated the story about Michelle and his dad washing gun that fell out of the closet. But now that young Joan had told the story several times Michelle's lawyers were able to point out some inconsistencies his description of where Michelle was when the gun was being washed was different from what he had described in his father's trial. His testimony seemed to have less of an impact this time around still gulfs and felt he had presented a strong case he referred to the last induction in his closing arguments. Saying quote, if she's the one who's going to write the ending to this. It's going to be just like the movie, isn't it? Problem is you're going to write the ending. She isn't it's going to be a true and just ending because the proof is beyond a reasonable doubt that she aided and abetted and solicited the murder of Ken left pink. And it's time to hold her accountable for that in quote. Michelle's defense team focused on selling her as a changed woman, a mom and a doctor's wife, but her past is a stripper juggling multiple engagements would prove insurmountable with the jury which was composed of eleven women Michelle commented later that she felt the jury was watching her every move quote. I didn't wanna look at the jury if I smiled it made me bad. And if I cried I was guilty. I felt like no matter. What I did. It wasn't right and quote studies show that throughout legal history. Women who commit murder are often judged more harshly by juries. This is a specially true when the woman on trial is deemed to be in any way, immoral barrister, Helena Kennedy who represented moors murderer Myra Hindley explained that there's a psychological need for juries to punish women who they deemed to have done something counter to the rules. Of womanhood. Michelle briefly considered testifying, but her lawyers were certain she'd be eaten alive by gulfs in on the stand. Instead, they called her husband, Colin Lenihan to present different side of Michelle to the jury. The wife mother and good neighbor, but his testimony did not appear to have much of an impact on the jury, especially when her own attorney had to admit Michelle's character was questionable in his closing statements. Michelle's defense attorney conceded that she had indeed behaved badly during her time in Anchorage and made no excuse for how she had treated the men in her life. But he also called for the jury to exercise fair judgement of his client. And remember what she was actually on trial for he said, quote, all this mudslinging at Mrs Lynne, Eoghan shows immaturity in relationships shows confusion in the relationships shows lack of honesty in the relationships demonstrates, she said some. Lousy things. But you know, what she's not charged with any of those things. None of this proves that. She solicited the murder of Kent lep Inc. And quote, but the jury wasn't swayed on October twenty second two thousand seven they returned a guilty verdict after the verdict was read Michelle slumped into her chair. Her husband knelt beside her and buried himself into her shoulder weeping, Michelle and Colin embraced until guards finally came over and pulled her away after the hearing a juror named Christine Eagleton spoke with Anchorage daily news. Reporter Megan Holland outside the courthouse eagles and said that it was the emails that convinced the jurors of Michelle's guilt. She explained quote, if you take one of those emails alone. Then it doesn't have the same impact. It does when you stack them up like you would stack bricks, and I think when that happened you ended up building something. Really large. And I think undeniable end quote, sin also admitted that Michelle's former life as a stripper influence the jury as well, she told the reporter when you were soliciting yourself to be attractive sexually and all those ways you were soliciting yourself in that manner for money that all goes into the factor of manipulation and seduction that was a whole key point that we discussed on and on and on. Shortly after Michelle's trial ended still waiting for his sentencing hearing, John Carlin gave an interview from jail to CBS as sixty minutes in the interview he finally admitted to owning the forty four desert eagle. He said that it was probably the gun that killed Kent. But claimed that it had disappeared around the time of the murder only to reappear in the closet in his house shortly after Kent's death. He corroborated young John story of the gun falling out of the closet. John said he came upstairs and found Michelle and a panic. He said, quote, I heard Michelle yelling at young John don't touch it. Don't touch it in quote worried. His sons fingerprints were now on the gun. John washed it with bleach in the bathroom sink. He said he got rid of the gun by throwing it into a dumpster. When asked why he lied during the investigation. John said, quote, it appeared to me that these people were coming after me bit look. Very bad for me. And quote, he went on to say that he didn't believe Michelle had pulled the trigger either. And that he had no idea who actually killed Kent one thing that he was certain about however was the effect that Michelle still had on him. He said, it is indefinable whatever she needs to be. She is you'll never ever sit down and get Michelle you never will not now not ten years from now, you will never get Michelle. You will get what she wants at that particular time to portray to you. Next up, John Carlin, and Michelle Lenihan hope for leniency as the world waits to see how the judge will sentence them. Now back to the story. In the fall of two thousand seven both John Carlin and Michelle Lynn Eoghan were convicted of first degree murder for their involvement in Ken Leppings death. Judge volant was tasked with determining the appropriate sentences for each when John Carlin arrived in court on November. Seventh two thousand seven judge volant. Had harsh words for him. He said the jury's verdict established that it was Mr. Carlin who lured Kent Leppings to hope that it was Mr. Carlin who pulled the trigger. And the last time he fired most likely was looking dying Kent lip ink straight in the eyes because of the calculated nature of the crime volant thought the maximum penalty was warranted. He sentenced Carlin to serve ninety nine years in prison. He would be eligible for parole in thirty three years when he was eighty two a few days later, it was Michelle's turn her attorney. A compelling argument that Michelle had been adversely affected by the media frenzy surrounding John carlin's trial. The statements made about Michelle by John's attorney Sydney Billingsley had prevented her from receiving a fair trial. He said the Alaskan media focused a sensationalized spotlight on Michelle Lynn, Lenihan to such an extent that one would have thought it was she on trial rather than Mr. Carlin the steady, diet of scandalous. Michelle. Lynn Eoghan stories many weeks before she stood trial together with the incessant tabloid Esca media treatment of her trial, seriously compromised. Michelle, Linda hands case. Eventually it was Michelle's turned to speak to the hushed courtroom. She said, quote, I am not the monster. That has been painted by the prosecution, I have not lived a life of greed or that of this fictional character of a Hollywood movie that has been portrayed by the prosecution, and quote, she then told the packed courtroom about her life as a loving wife and mother and her work in the community as a crisis counselor a stark contrast to the woman she was over a decade ago. She also spoke about Kent saying, quote, the fact is I considered him a friend, my reaction upon hearing of his death was horrible. My reaction was genuine. It is true that later in anger. I said things about him that were not kind, and I shouldn't have said those things and quote, Michelle begged judge vol into consider how her life had changed in the past ten years quote. I can only ask you to look at my life outside. Side of the prosecution's attacks look at what? And who I am by my peers, my family, my friends, my neighbors. I ask you when sentencing me that you look at all of these I beg you from the bottom of my heart to allow me the chance to go back to my family as soon as I possibly can and quote by all accounts. It was an emotional powerful statement that left the courtroom stunned. But there were some people who weren't buying her story. Kent Leppings parents Betsy and Ken they were certain that Michelle was the mastermind behind their son's death and wanted her to pay the price, according to Betsy with all my heart. I felt it was a setup judge volant recognized that Michelle had lived a good life for the last ten years, but quickly pointed out that Kent lipping never had a chance to find that same happiness. He continued. It remains. Evident to me that people are clearly taken by miss, Linda, hands charm, and remains so today and the evidence at trial also convinces me that she used that same charm to a criminal design. He said he could see no distinction quote between the puppet who pulls the trigger and puppeteer who pulls the strings and in my judgment, MS Lynne. Eoghan was the puppeteer who pulled the strings, and quote, volunteer gave Michelle the same ninety nine year sentence as John Carlin. She would be eligible for parole when she was sixty eight. John Carlin was incarcerated at spring creek Correctional Center, a maximum security men's prison in Seward Alaska, his time there was difficult from the start his argumentative nature and sometimes racist opinions did not endear him to his fellow inmates. A few months into his sentence. He was severely beaten by four other inmates. Carlin was placed in protective custody something he felt was punitive. He described it in a letter a similar to the primate section of zoo. But shortly after returning to the general prison population John was attacked again fearing for his life Carlin appeal to state officials for protection Carlin believed his problems stemmed in part because the other prisoners were jealous of the media attention. He was receiving the state did not take John's complaints. Seriously. He even wrote a letter to Anchorage daily news reporter, Megan Holland begging her to help saying. He needed to be moved or protected before the other prisoners killed him on fortunately on October twenty seventh two thousand eight John Carlin was attacked a third time in his cell and beaten to death the Alaska department of law launched an investigation into his death that lasted over two years. The report came to the conclusion that the department of corrections had dropped the ball in ensuring John safety young John sued. The Alaska department of corrections for five hundred thousand dollars the state settled in early two thousand fifteen with a payment of one hundred sixty thousand dollars. Michelle managed to find her way at Highland mountain Correctional Center in eagle river, Alaska. She busied herself with work sewing prison. Uniforms, and caring for abandoned dogs in a special program designed to rehabilitate both dogs and prisoners, but she hadn't given up on winning back her freedom. She finally got her chance with an appeal hearing on December third two thousand nine Michelle retained one of Alaska's leading criminal defense attorneys. Jeff Feldman, he presented Michelle's case before three judge panel of the Alaska court of appeals his arguments were in brief than inflammatory and inappropriate testimony had been allowed about the movie. The Last Seduction these irrelevant statements had tainted the jury, even though judge Poland eventually instructed the jury to disregard it as evidence Feldman also made a case against the letter from the grave written by Kent lep Inc. He argued that the letter. Effectively testimony by the victim who could not be cross examined because he was dead. Therefore, it shouldn't have ever been presented at Michelle's trial. The appeals court. Agreed. They ruled in February two thousand ten that the movie had no apparent connection to the Linda Eoghan case. And that Kent's letter was inadmissible testimony Michelle's first degree murder conviction was overturned, however because her appeal was based on a mistrial. She would be retried without the prohibited evidence. She was only free to leave prison if she could post bail as with the last trial. Unfortunately, the Linda hands were already a million dollars in debt and unable to come up with the required twenty five thousand dollars in cash and two hundred twenty five thousand dollars in property assets. But once again men who were charmed by Michelle came through for her. The cash was posted by Pennsylvania, businessman, Brian watt, and the. Property was put up by an Anchorage resident Terry stolman who owned a local strip club. Although grateful Michelle admits she was initially leery of accepting their generosity. She said I've taken presents from men before that didn't want anything, and it didn't get me in a good place. Even once she was out on bail. Michelle had to remain in Anchorage while she waited for her new trial scheduled for April. Second two thousand twelve she rented an apartment and got a job hoping that she wouldn't be convicted a second time. In Betsy lapping were devastated when they learned of Michelle's release despite can having some health problems the couple made plans to travel to Alaska for the new trial. But the second trial would never happen in December of two thousand eleven almost two years after her guilty verdict was overturned judge volun- ruled that the indictment should be thrown out entirely. In addition to the letter from the grave being inadmissible young John had recanted. His testimony about seeing the desert eagle in his father's home. He told prosecutors that if he was called to the stand again, he would invoke his fifth amendment rights the prosecution no longer had sufficient evidence to indict Michelle for the first time in five years. She was free after receiving the good news. Michelle made no statement and left the courtroom quietly with her husband, Colin with an hours she was on a plane to Olympia free of. Her past. But Kent's family would never be free of the events that occurred in nineteen Ninety-six Betsy said when you lose a child you love so very much it never stops hurting. We'll miss Kent as long as we live Betsy continued to visit Alaska in the years that followed she considered it the place that she felt closest to her son. Although Michelle was free to go back to the life. She had built in Olympia the damage had been done in her marriage. She and Colin eventually separated but remained on good terms. Michelle opened a successful skin care clinic and the two share custody of their teenage daughter, despite the fact that the cold case unit, presented a compelling case. No, one can truly say what happened to Kent in the desolate landscape of hope Alaska. The lepuc family is still devastated by their loss and struggles with the fact that Michelle was never held accountable for his murder, although Michelle didn't pay the ultimate price for Kevin's murder. She did lose the dream life that she had built whether that meant she got off easy or was punished more than she deserved is still up for debate. Thanks again for tuning into the special crossover for female, criminals and crimes of passion. We'll be back on Wednesday with a new episode you can find more episodes of female criminals as well. As all of park has other podcasts on apple podcasts. Spotify Stitcher, Google play or your favorite podcast directory. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show the best way to help is to leave a five star review. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. Join us next Wednesday as we continue to explore the minds of female, criminals, female, criminals was created by max Cutler is a production of Cutler media and is part of the park cast network. It is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound designed by Ron Shapiro with production assistance by Paul Moller, additional production assistance by Carly Madden. And Maggie admire female. Is written by Desi deduction and stars Laney Hobbs semi ni- and Vanessa Richardson. Don't forget to listen to the park cast network show survival. It looks through the eyes of the world's most resilient survivors as their self preservation instincts are pushed to the limit be sure to search for and subscribe to survival wherever you listen to podcasts, and please don't forget to rate and review.
George Carlin Gets Quoted in the Supreme Court: Ridiculous Stand-up Stories with Wayne Federman
"Before we get started. Folks. It's important to know that this episode contained some strong and explicit language that may not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you've got your kid os in the crowd, this might not be the episode for them, we thought about censoring it. But we decided we couldn't not in good faith because this episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope you enjoy. Welcome back to the show, ridiculous historians. Thank you for tuning in. If you check the headlines or the title of your podcast before you, listen to them, you will know that this is episode two of a two part series. If you have not heard episode one, please don't delay. Click. Pause goal isn't episode one. You want to catch up? Hi. I'm ben. Hey, it's me. No. And all my microphone at glory. You sound wonderful friends, my dulcet tones dulcet tones. Yeah. So we had as we said a little bit of a technical difficulty in the first episode. Yeah. Hopefully, you could hear me bleeding into another Mike. But it's just not as high fidelity is this listen to me leaning into the Mike well done. So we are of course, always accompanied by a super producer to help us. Save the show today that is our guest super producer, Paul deck and. However, we still hold a very special place in our hearts for our super producer, Casey, panic Linton. Swinging or step, and we are also joined today by our incredible guest. Wayne Federman who had some incredible things to say about the history of stand up, the storied careers of Lenny, Bruce and today, specifically, George Carlin and without further ado, let's get the show on the road. This is this is incredible aim still like, it's amazing. This all happened. When I was a kid. So it's just it was just great George Carlin. Again, who was you know, beneficiary of Lenny BRUCE'S, expanding expansion of language numbers. A number of game comedians like it allowed red Foxx and Richard prior to speak in their street vernacular without getting arrested, and I'll just like, I don't know. This is the way I talk on the corner wanna making people laugh, I think I can bring this on stage. But Carlin was like, I don't know what indecent or. Means exactly. So I'm going to come up with the list of words, you can never say on television. And those words I'm gonna say, I'm right now do this in order. It's shit piss fuck cont cocker motherfucker and tits. So that is that was the original bit of his. And he later was like it's weird that I put motherfucker in there because I already said fuck earlier, which is a version of it. But he just liked the rhythm of it. And I just need to say this 'cause it's very important to the whole story George Carlin didn't want to be a comedian George Carlin wanted to be a famous actor movie star. And his idol was a guy named Danny Kaye. And Danny Kaye was known for these very twisty songs and speeches where he would have high level. Verbal acuity. Yeah. Yeah. Just in general quick. I'm so glad you mentioned Danny Kaye, Wayne because he's he is one of the. Actors I loved growing up especially in the original version of Walter Mitty. So it's holy familiar with that turn of phrase. So that that was carlin's sort of northstar for while one hundred percent, it was his northstar until he realized that he hated acting or kind of the reasons that we spoke about earlier that he was just he didn't like thority. No, like, if there's a director on set tell him to stand here and say this he's not gonna like that. He didn't realize at the time. It was like, oh, I've rather just right and say my own stuff, you know, and be completely free of even when he hosted Saturday Night Live. He said to Lorne Michaels. I don't wanna be only sketches I don't want to rehearse these things. Can I just do my comedy? And you know, bring my brain and my mouth and that'll be good. That'll be good. And he's the first host of the first Saturday Night Live in you know, what nineteen seventy five believe. So anyway, so that's that ended his Danny catering. But this bit. The shit piss fuck cocker motherfucker and tits has a certain Gilbert and Salvin rhythm to it that he loved and that was part of the bit that what made that as well as these words. So anyway, he did this bit on an album called class clown came out in nineteen seventy two the next year. He does another album called occupation full. And the expands on it. And he calls it. The filthy words. This is what happens there's a public radio station or not publicly at Pacifica. And what is that? How would you describe Pacifica that network college? Yeah. Yeah. They're certainly not like a top forty. They're kind of alternative for their day. You know, right progress. I would say progressive radio station. There we go New York again in New York, you know, the vanguard of progressivism WBAI, and they're doing a whole thing about just language and the hypocrisy of language, and where's this thing? And so they play filthy were. Which is kind of an expansion talks about shit a lot shit face. You know, she shit kicker and all of that some guy named I can't John Douglas. I just I don't remember that. But I wrote it down he hears it in his car with his fifteen year old, son. Again, we're going to go back to remember that statute. Yeah. You and others and he calls the this is in the middle of the afternoon, they play it. And WBAI says look this might be offensive. But I just he's just talking about words just using words to talk about words and our language so he caused the FCC logic complaint. The FCC says you're going to get a Mark on your record. I think some people said it was one hundred dollar fine. Other people said, no, I'm not sure and basically WBAI Pacific radio says I'm going to sue the FCC and say this is unconstitutional because of the first amendment for playing this George Carlin bit on the air at two o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon in nineteen seventy. Three any questions. We're with you so far, but the sounds like sounds like it's about to get quickly out of control. Right. Guess what? The US court of appeals in Washington DC. You may be familiar with that court. Brad Kavanagh was just on that court, Merrick garland is on that court that's considered highest up to right below the supreme court the penultimate court, right? Yeah. They agree with Pacifica. They're like, yeah. This is too. Broad a definition. What's insi- in indecent or obscene, and we're going to strike down this fine or this Mark on your record? So guess what they bring it to the supreme court and in a five to four decision. This is George Carlin. A ninth grade dropout. Having his words read hints Precourt about whether they these words are indecent or obscene or what the difference between indecent or obscene is. And guess what? The court in a very narrow fight afford decis. Says that during the daytime hours, the FCC does have the right to say, you can't play anything that would be considered obscene or indecent. But after ten o'clock, you can't. Yeah. I think what the term is safe harbor. Believe is the term the guest that is I love the research gets. So that's kind of what happened just Carl into the day. He died. He said he always had a perverse pride in the fact that somewhere in supreme court like case law as a precedent that his stupid routine. He did on an album called, you know, class excuse me. I can patient full is is part of the history the legal history of the United States. Let's hear a quick moment of Carlin himself talking about how he feels about words and some of this love it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. They're only words, it's the context counts. It's the user it's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words. Completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language bullshit. It's the context that makes them. A we do also want to mention we would be remiss if we skip this part. Yeah. Not only not only is Coralline 's or excerpts of carlin's performance in his writing part of court case law, but he was quoted alongside Shakespeare and passages from the bible the bible in the bible. They mentioned the line. They were like, oh is is this motherfucker stuff so bad because the bible says he who pissing against the wall. So where's the line? And then they also mentioned Shakespeare seen pissing conduit. So this became an argument started as again sort of hypocritical argument about decency in the hearts and minds of the innocent and unspoiled, but it quickly became a much more. I think much more intelligent argument about the role of language and literature, and you know, what? Good on Carlin here, and no doubt. And I'm still deciding whether or not we can even release this episode fully uncensored this family show. Technically, just f y but I think this is valuable to the point of like, you can't censor it almost as it would be hypocritical to do say it would be hilarious hypocritical. This is like caught in a loopier talk about these words now we're going to be. Essex. No, it's true. Because Carlin couldn't say these words when he did the tonight show or talk about it that way when he did Chris rock's HBO show. He was able to say the words. So it is. I mean, it's still you wouldn't want to say these words in front of a kid. I guess right. Depends on the kid. Yeah. Yeah. Kids have really tough tough constitutions nine year old who's actually here right now has been like giving us the devil horns this whole time. Yeah. Yeah. But man, I don't even know where do we go from here. So yeah, what's next? Well supreme court case was in nineteen seventy eight. But really what happened in nineteen seventy five changed everything. And that's when H B O started doing these hour specials the recall eventually called on location, and the first one was done by Robert Klein at a school in the northeast, and he's a very clean comedian. But even in that specially goes, all right. I've total freedom to say anything shit. You know, he just said say the word, and but then the next in nine hundred seventy seven Carlin does and if you can find this. This is amazing his first of fourteen HBO specials and before the special begins. They have a newscaster talking about that this. There's going to be some language on here that you're not used to hearing on television. And then this. This gets even crazier in the middle of an HBO special. They stopped the special and run a disclaimer over the screen saying the next portion of this comedy act will contain language that might be unto for children and then cuts back to Carlin at USC. Just bring it all full circle at Bove art auditorium and talks about you know, these this language, and these words, and he sort of became famous for this in a way where the language and the the arrest of Lenny, Bruce, sort of destroyed Lenny, Bruce in a way it did make it famous, but he became so consumed with it. And if you really listen to his act at the end a lot of times, he would just read court transcripts was his act. He was obsessed. Yes. Yes. Very much. So, and I don't know how much of the drugs or making them paranoid or whatever. But it's like, it's it's it's really sad to listen to him just go on and on about it. It and in a way it elevated Carlin career so in a short period of time from let's say sixty five Till's, I guess seventy five in those ten years started to change. And then once we got HBO specials. Suddenly, there's red FOX in an HBO special where you know, he's like, I don't want to repeat the language, but it, you know, it was graphic adult entertainment and that continues to this day, although I will say this. I do feel like there's a different kind of censorship going on now in in comedy a little bit and Carlin talked about it at the end that he wouldn't play colleges, and I know Seinfeld won't Chris rock because people are so sensitive about hearing something that might be offensive like offensive is the new indecent in our society. Again. No one's going to get arrested. What you might get shamed. Or lose a job because of it. So what would be an example of that? What do you mean? Seinfeld bit like somebody being I can think of one off the top. And this is a really extreme example. But that guy Milo Yiannopoulos who is a alt-right kind of moody. Tune like you can you can disagree with what he has to say. But technically, you would like to have him have the right to say it what is also doing comedy. No, he's not doing comedy intentionally in comedy. But he was he was banned from all these college campuses. And this is not me saying good on my understanding. We're talking about the first amendment, and there are lines between like being in decent, and you know, being a supporter of violence. So the whole deal with like indecency is like or freedom of speech is like you can say what you want as long as you're not actively hurting so freedom of speech is also not freedom from consequences. That's also true. But I'm just wondering this whole PC police thing. That's why I brought up this extreme example because he is an extreme example of not being and I don't think this is exclusively discussion about comedy. This is about speech. So. Yes. It is. Yes, it is. And I look I look I'm listening very carefully to what you're saying. And agree with you. And I don't I'm not that familiar with Milo's stuff other than being in his fan club. But I know I'll know, but I do think it's interesting the Carlin and Seinfeld and Chris rock won't play colleges because of how offensive much some people might find what they're saying. Which is strange not strange because you can really get. I don't wanna use the word bullied, but you can really get publicly. Shamed. Online in a big way. If you know if people think what you're saying is -fensive. And again, I, you know, this doesn't affect me personally. But as a hissed somebody who's like interested in the history of comedy, I feel like the walls are, narrowing as opposed to for so long in my life. They just kept broadening and it used to be like if you make fun of Catholics or something like that. And they get upset you like well. FM if they can't take a joke, but that doesn't exist anymore for sudden people who feel like you can't make fun of a marginalized community. That's it you MS on. I'm sure you know, what I'm talking about. So it's like any any of that? So I know this is off the track a little bit. I don't even know if you wanna not at all what I do think. It's it is interesting that we become we've sort of shrunk back to a much more like Bekaert walking on eggshells comedy around certain subjects that didn't exist. When I was a kid, and I know Carlin said something phenomenal about it. He said that political correctness is an I'm paraphrasing here sip it because it comes under the guise of tolerance is like that. You're under the guise of. Hey, we're just trying to make it all better for everyone. But basically what you're doing? You're saying you can't say that bright. He hated that. It's the opposite of comedy, right? It's the opposite of what stand up. Comedy opposite of free speech. More importantly, yeah. But, but he, you know, it was interesting that he had that that side. He saw it coming and he really railed against it. In a big way. Do you see this trend we walk through some of the history? So let's let's walk towards the future. Do you see this trend escalating, or do you think it's just another cyclical thing that will fall away? I guess what? I'm asking is. Do we have some more supreme court cases in the future? If we had to guess that would I don't think. So because I don't think it's about the I don't think any government is is going in. And I to tell you the truth. I don't know. It all depends on hate speech is basically what it comes down to is. Whether you think hate speech is something that should exist or that completely protected by the first amendment. So, and you know, I know you're not allowed to incite somebody. These words are so you know, Morffiz. I know you're not allowed to do that. So so I don't think this is this is more about vigilante vigilante ISM in speech control in the same way. Catholics used to do it in the you know in the forties. It's interesting because what about like things like dog whistle politics where you have these potentially racist speakers that aren't outright saying exactly he'll kill this group of people or hurt this group of people. But they're using these kind of coded words that speak to their base or what have you? And then that's interpreted, but from a legal standpoint, you can't say, oh, he said to do this because it's all in the subtext what is in sites. And it's the whole thought police thing where it's like once you start banning words like carlin's words, potentially could ban any word. So it's dangerous territory. But it's also like where does that leave us I strongly feel like we should not leave this episode? Yeah. Have to put a really strongly worded. I didn't know why did you say? Because we thought it'd be funny. If you bleep them, do your homework, but no we were pretty much from the start. Not good. Yeah. And also you nailed the cadence. Oh, you gotta the cadence. You can't just read the seven words in some sort of like that The Danny Kaye it up a little bit. True. Well, this this has been a luminated, and I like that we're ending on a question. We're in the thing about this story is that it's not over. Now this conversation this conflict is controversy continues of far past the fifties in the late forties into the future into the new Linnea. But that's kind of what I was saying the type of show where it's like, you know, comedy. And this kind of thing that you has this the guy of like, oh, this is entertainment. This is light stuff. This is just to kind of pass the time yet we're talking about it in terms of like race riots and the use of language to like physically hurt people incite, you know, these kind of crazy events that can happen. And that we're seeing happen and the news, and we're talking about the freedom of thought in a very real. And the interesting thing is this is the first amendment to the constitution. Like think I they would have no idea back then but how power? Awful and ideas that the government show make no laws infringing on freedom of speech. Like that is insane. That that still I just I love those guys white slave owner. Okay. Can I do a little button for the whole episode? Please do might find interesting or it's not you who knows. But when I was on curb your enthusiasm. I played a character named dean Weinstock and the name Weinstock was named after a comedian named Lotus Weinstock who has since passed away, but Lotus Weinstock, and you can look up was Lenny BRUCE'S, last girlfriend, full circle, full, sir. I knew Lotus do I knew I did shows with her. Holy smooz. I know. I know I, you know, what this is a rare moment, I think for my co host, and I because we stopped for a second and just stared at each other because that's perfect. Ending. We've got to say that. I think ridiculous stories listen now if you enjoyed this episode a fraction as much as we enjoyed this interview than by God. We've we've done something. Right. Yeah. Seriously. I think if you want more of this you should check out Wayne's new podcast, which goes even deeper into the history of standup. It's good. It's really really good. And it's out there. Now, what are you guys about too deep? It's it's like a mini series. Right. Six episodes refined in we're just about done. Yeah. It's about the first season. And then we might do deep dives in the second season. But you know, we'll see. That's awesome. We'd love to hear also envious of show that has a clock on it. We just have to do the show forever until we die. It's sort of a sisyphean endeavor. Oh, thank you. By the way. This is going to be a two parter because I've been so much fun. And we already had a nice even divide down the middle between Lenny and enjoy. And this is just been a delight man. Thank you so much for coming on. And we really appreciate you dive in deep with us Nolan. Ben, I gotta say was a delight on on this end as well. And I'm just glad that The Danny Kaye that we gave Danny ks. Do wait quite a comedian and a big big influence on George Carlin. And maybe maybe we can just throw a Danny Kaye clip somewhere in this episode. He's loaded loaded with Patterson. Yeah. If they get two ticket booth ticketing, boo reading nicotine, boo should we dated? You could be pushed nicotine nicotine nicotine with this guy. So Glinka they blew one. Bless mankind including my attack. The vintages jolly. So there you have it, folks. Thank you so much for tune in to our super producer, Paul super producer, Casey and thanks to Alex Williams. Composed our theme. Thanks to our research folk who we loved dearly Eve's Jeffcoat and Christopher hus- yoda's. And most importantly, thank you, Ben. And thank you, Wayne and the best. Thank you. Thank you very much wing. We are not blowing smoke about the history of standup. Go check out the show. Look, I said earlier, I'm officially gonna be insufferable at house parties already pretty insufferable at house parties been that's why only party in the yard to the next level. Yeah. I'm gonna go inside. We'll see you next time, folks. My father is Keith hunter just percent. He's known as the happy face serial killer. On one side of the coin. He's a loving family, man. And then on the other side of the coin he is everything that could hurt he goes from protected or predator. Happy face a new series from house to forks, new episodes out every Friday on apple podcasts or wherever you get podcast.
Chris Carlin Joins Cameo, Now What???
"We've talked a lot about cameo how much I have enjoyed cameo. And even on Mother's Day when we really weren't doing anything I mean that was like height of the pandemic in your house stuff and you know getting gifts either get mailed or whatever I got a cameo from my wife and mom and absolutely loved it. I think it's great. We've also talked about how we thought about joining and boomer would be the only one really who would make some money on that and no Phil Simms joined we have some fun with that but we always said Ah. We like ourselves. We're confident. We could do. Okay. But it just doesn't seem like I don't know it's like bigger celebrities than like me you're jerry or AL or whatever. Not Celebrities Guys WanNa Talk Show, right? So it didn't feel right. So I happen to see yesterday. That our old friend Chris Carlin joined Cameo Nice. Twenty. Five. Bucks. It's Chris Carlin. Twenty, five bucks for a personalized message from Chris I appreciate that and then three, ninety nine to chat. To what? With. Him I guess. So I had not seen that feature before the chat feature like talk or text I don't know but chat to me seems like. Like sex stuff right Yeah. Yes. Come on now, what was that sound like stop it? Come on. Now I'm not GONNA put platter. Online nipple. OFF DISCUSSED IT I'm keeping my shirt on. Sorry. I don't know what type of finish you have your sick. Oh JEEZ I thought, I just joined the thing and Faye Pandemonium and Scott. Away a couple times, and then make a hundred bucks a week. What finish? Foot vanish. Why do you want to see my feet? Oh, boy. The sausages solid. Man. That's apartment. All right fine I'll do it. I'll take my pants off. They're gonNA. Make you happy. The MANIACI TWAT. Ayatollah. But. What is the Chad like? What's three? Hundred Nine Chad is at three, ninety, nine, a minute to. Right, how long do you have one nine, Hundred Carlin? I don't think this is. This is a pay line I. It's got to be an online chat. Doesn't it? So what are you wearing? No. No. Sorry we. Remember. Mama. I just googled it. It's a it's a text. Oh okay. So they get your phone number. Yeah. No, I'm sure you do it. That's probably through the CAMEO APP Because if that's like other bigger, celebrities aren't giving her cell phone numbers out point Wackos. BOOMER pucker up. Breathing. Not going too far. Now that I'm not text chat it's not as fun. I thought it was like three, ninety, nine, hundred it is fun because for three ninety nine, it might be worth to screw around with them. Yeah. I suppose I mean. How much like I don't know. If you're if it was on the phone and it was three, ninety, nine a minute and you're a celebrity that wanted to do that. That would be hell honor. Yes. Honestly. Here's the other thing about this this chat thing though like got to cross the debts, the actual celebrity in there and it's not somebody that's very two point if you're right about that. Why the personalized messages a lot but right now let me ask you this though. Yeah. They don't all offer do they. Probably. No chance. I just saw him with the chat three ninety nine. Crap Bull. Picture no-shirt on. This. As this look. Twenty five bucks you think he's priced right twenty I. think so. I think that's a good number. I we we've talked about this if I ever did them for like the angry messages which I think would be fun. Yeah, I. Think Twenty Five Bucks is fine. How would you? What are you looking for? Palmer sought just out. Well that's nice. What are you doing over there? I'm having. Sex Chat with Chris Carlin. On Cameo. All Right Don. funky sounds man. Okay. Oh my goodness. There's some what is it about like three, ninety, nine in chat that makes us all just go straight tour because of the late night on sex because of the late night. Commercials we used to watch. That's why like that's exactly what it was like. There's not a single person that looks at dangles three, ninety, nine chat. That's got to be thinking exactly what you're thinking. With his music in the background. Yeah Do you ever call me honest. I never paid for I remember there used to be like the commercials that would come on late at night, and then you dial it and you'd hear the voice in the background, right? You're like twelve thirteen years old. It's like the funniest thing in those. Hey boy for five, ninety, nine, a minute I'll blow your mind. And then you listen to that, then you had never pay off. Your parents phone bill year right doing that. But you can dial it for free and then you can hear the voices and now that we've done enough. Yeah. But I've never done a no never paid for phone sex. No absolutely people have told me many times that the WFAN calling line is one number off from a sex line like of you I don't know which number it is. Seven, one, eight, one or two, hundred, number eight, seven, seven really. Yeah. I think it might be the last numbers. It's a one off from a sexy sixty, sixty nine. Maybe, it. Might, be. Dan Carter. Furiously dialing all wrong numbers right now. Which one is it? It's gotta be sixty, nine, sixty, nine. Right that would make sense. What about you guys? Do you ever pay for phone sex? Point your. Life. Yes Oh you still need a visual. Yeah. Well I, guess you use your imagination in that. You had the visual took the apparatus home from ten, the station. Tried it, and then the walk of shame. I. Tried, it. Saw Drying on additional? What am I doing? What we? What was that thing? Just Yeah. It was an apparatus it was A. Device. The device for men Perfect way to put it back which we we had delivered at the radio because the store that sold them was sponsored. Malaria like Oh this. Really, all. Try boxed it unbiased world. It's just sitting there. Right. And then just the shame. Life. And what are we doing in life like? Some human had a make this device. That humans by making a lot of money to and then I. Got The device is an amazing how the human brain works where like you get to a point where using that is exciting his ideas. And then then when done with it. There's this shame and guilt of all right. What is that? That's the brain. It's hormones in the brain I. It's. Like you go from. IDEA. I am the Most Gossiping. So. Foul. What was that from? Cameo. God Oh I remember. I remember thinking that if I, this was when I was living down in. Florida. Is just number thinking if I was ever in a car accident and it was killed and my parents had to come clean out my condo. They'd find it find that. What first of all they would have they'd be like what is. Yeah I mean they'd have to look it up trying to figure out what was it using this for maybe there was foul play. With writing key stuff right to the cops like this could be the murder weapon. This is where you really had some interesting times in Tampa. Jerry I was young and experiment. This you were. Boy You're. Absolutely, fascinating. You had gotten to a point where using something like that was a good idea. Seemed like a great idea. But then instantaneously. You're just appalled by yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Well, I do hope that. Chris Carlin has success cameo. We've mid June. We've done a nice commercial for him. If he tells you because you guys are friends, he says. House with Gio I am raking it in. Are you joining up? Dollars. said the yellow people why not? Yeah. I don't know man I, don't know I probably. I would also the other problem with this. I WOULD WANNA make it I be a perfectionist with it and a lot of it would be asking me to like you wish me. Day and Mike's Voice bingos voice or whatever. It would take the time I would sit there and I'd want to make sure that it was perfect. I do a bunch of takes you know what's really funny is for whatever reason I could do the reads at the end of the show no problem right I could talk on the air a talk show live and you plow through it. If I've got a record a video I have problems with that. I don't know what it is. I'm so concerned with the visual I know that someone's going to have that on their phone and they can play it over and over and over again that I it has to be perfect. So there's so many times that'd be videos for sponsors and stuff that I do like twenty takes even the ones I make it through without flooding do over because they didn't like the way my head was or whatever. It doesn't the hair something's wrong the hair do it over and over and over. Again because you say it's taped and you want it to be perfect. Suck my left nut. What was Never mind. bressler bouncing. What thousand dollars. Is Killing himself in their. Up Sorry. That was phenomenal. That was great except. I remember where that came from to on the air? No, it was now. Wasn't he was doing a read any the screwed up and he said that I remember that from that stuff to dude, you're bad guy those are some of the best things like when professional broadcasters are in a in a production room regarding commercials AC case him in the deadline. Howard Stern's stuff where he's trying to get through, reads it it just there's so miserable because you've just done for hours on the air and then you go into the production. Yeah. Yup. Yeah, everybody's got one of those. We have Ceelo to thank for a bunch of those later ones. The. Alerted me to his personal collection oh boy. Some of the best prank calls actually involved. Carlin when he did overnights for awhile. So in that in that folder that CEELO is has the key to the I mean I can't even say these things that these caller said, but they're just He's actually doing sign language where one of them but these guys were absolutely brutal and the the one. The best is when you get a guy sounds totally normal and is set setup is totally normal and he comes in the most outrageous foul thing in the world. There's one guy like, yeah just want to let you know you know the mets are playing well, it really like the way that they're they're going about things like this new-look team and I also like to. blankety blank. Crime. That's nice. Great thanks for checking in. And there have been times when you don't let the delay build back up and you go to the next call and the next guy gets in all that happened a Mussa's once yep, and that's a bad one. He I actually no I it was an overnight with me. Yeah. This is I know the whole thing. So militias is hosting Kevin Burkhardt was doing updates. And Monzo was running the board. Yup. And you can even here on the original clip. Burkhardt in the newsroom going. Through the control room, it might have been open actually you know sometimes like you keep that controls or open when there wasn't a lot of people and you could hear Burke when this guy said what he said so I, it was the wildebeest guy. So the wildebeest guy was also go Buchanan go. So this is total right? There was a prank caller we try to explain because. It was a prank caller nutjob. He was really really good at getting past screeners and I would probably get him seventy five percent of the time but he would still get me twenty five percent of the time. This is before the neo screener and the numbers and everything. And he used to do two things to set up the host for like a minute long with some old baseball thing and then you go go go go go Buchanan goat that was his thing, and the also used to do wildebeest so it's set the host. Next. Worldview wildebeest. Yes. So So here's Moose on a overnight. The guy does is will stick. Moose. Hits the DUMBARTON. Doesn't let it build up because he's like the Willoughby's guy got me someone the next guy's not going to be any bad right. Goes to the next guy without delay building up. So For Non Radio people to delay. It's like an eight second delay. If you hit the dump button to make something go away in the air you automatically go live so boom you're live you gotta wait for the delay to go back up to be able to hit it again. So if you go to call and that call says that Koehler says something bad right after you dumped on, it's going live over here. So the next guy goes. Hey Moves, I've got a question for you. How many times a day do you bleeping bleep bleep someone's bleep. He said. You're burkhart. Fifteen seconds of silence and then Moose. Goes. Seven eight, nine, three, seven, six. Marc. Malusis on the overnight come back right after. Looks Yeah well. Yeah Oh. Man. Anyway. So there you go those old stories about the prank calls and everything else, and we played a drop I never thought I'd here on the air from Chris Carlin I remember when that happened many years ago. So hope you enjoyed it boomer and Geo on the fan and CBS? Sports. Network. With the new iphone as e for less than a hundred bucks at Metro. You rule it's the most affordable iphone on the number one brand prepaid whether you're studying online or fees tiny. Hey Mom. The iphone se has all you need switch to Metro and get the iphone se for ninety, nine, Ninety, nine after rebate redemption in six months of service with auto-pay Metro, by t mobile rule your day. Limit One per account slash household requires port ninety validation not valid for numbers currently on T. Mobile Network are active on Metro and pass ninety days. Restrictions apply see store for details.
Alaskan Love Triangle - Mechele Linehan
"If you haven't listened to survival yet, you should check it out right away. Survival tells high intensity stories about people in life or death situations and explores the strategies they use to stay alive. It's truly fascinating search for and subscribe to survival wherever you listen to podcasts, and please don't forget to rate and review. Due to the graphic nature of this woman's crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of murder and sexual situations that some people may find offensive we advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. On may second nineteen Ninety-six Betsy and Ken lep Inc. Received a call from Alaska state troopers with devastating news there. Thirty six year old son Kent was dead. He had been shot three times his body left in the snow on a desolate Alaskan trail it felt like a sick joke to the Leppings just that morning. They had received a disturbing letter from Kent warning them of his possible death. According to Betsy it was a letter inside a letter and the first letter asked us not to read the second letter unless something happened to him still reeling from the news Betsy and Ken opened kens letter from the grave. They were stunned to read the accusations Kent levied against various people in his life. He wrote that if he was dead one person would be responsible for his murder history on say, Michelle Hughes. Picture a murderer a gangster a thief. Did you picture? A woman way didn't think so society associates men with dangerous crimes, but what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday. We examine the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals. Hi, I'm Sammy ni-, and I'm Vanessa Richardson. And you're listening to female criminals on the park cast network this week, we're joined by Laney Hobbs. The host of our new podcast crimes of passion. Her show follows passionate crimes exploring what manipulates our relationships into deadly results. Thanks, Vanessa, Hello, female, criminals listeners. We've brought Laney in today to help us explore the life and crimes of Michelle Hughes. Linda Eoghan the central figure in one of Alaska's most notorious murders this week will follow Michelle's early life. What led her to Alaska and the several relationships she formed? There. We'll discuss how she juggled her multiple romantic partners and the mounting jealousy. That eventually led to the death of Ken lapping at par cast. We're grateful for you our listeners, you will now us to do what we love let us know how we're doing reach out on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help us. We also now have merchandise head to park cast dot com slash merch. For more information. Michelle Hughes was born in New Orleans Louisiana on October twelfth nineteen seventy seventy-two. Her father was in the air force. So Michelle was a classic military brat. And never lived in one place for too long constantly moving like, this may have affected how Michelle formed relationships with other people Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here. And throughout the episode. Please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy, a two thousand ten study published in the journal of personality and social psychology looked into the long term effects of constant relocation as a child the research showed that as adults nomadic children were more likely to experience feelings of unhappiness and dissatisfaction and consistently struggled to develop and maintain quality relationships in general exacerbating, the people of Michelle's childhood her father died. Unexpectedly in nineteen Eighty-four when she was twelve her mother, sandy quickly remarried Sandy's. New husband worked for an airline some shells life of constant relocation continued making matters worse shortly after her father's death. She developed scoliosis occur richer of the spine. Michelle spent the next two years in a body brace. She had numerous surgeries and eventually a steel rod was implanted in her back. The trauma of such a serious medical ordeal and her constant hospitalizations. Only intensified her feelings of isolation. When Sandy's second marriage ended in nineteen eighty six fourteen year old Michelle and her mom moved back to New Orleans once the family settled down Michelle thrived already incredibly bright. She became a dedicated student and popular with her peers, according to sandy her grades were mostly as and Bs getting the occasional C for talking too much when she was just sixteen Michelle decided that she was ready to strike out on her own with Sandy's consent. Michelle moved to New York City in nineteen eighty eight to pursue a modeling career. She was able to land some modeling work, initially, but jobs quickly became scarce. And she had to find other ways to provide for herself more specifically she wanted a man to provide for her Michelle started frequenting New York City's hottest nightclubs looking for a benefactor. In nineteen ninety eighteen year old Michelle met, a construction company owner pad Gigante at the Guana club on Park Avenue. Even though he was almost twenty years older than her Pat was instantly infatuated he said, quote, I'm from New York City. So I come from a pretty fast place, and let me tell you. She made me feel like I was standing still and quote, Michelle moved into pats apartment and started working at a deli. He owned in brick town, New Jersey. However, Pat also claimed that Michelle had a split personality while he recognized that she was fun and charming. He also spoke of a darker side. According to him, she was like a thoroughbred racehorse bred for being cruel pats description of Michelle's behavior, and the fact that she sought out a relationship with him purely. So he could provide for her indicate that she might have had a narcissistic personality. The mayo clinic lists some comments. Rates of narcissists as taking advantage of others to get what they want reacting with rage or contempt and trying to belittle other people to make themselves appear superior after three years together. They split up and a twenty one year old Michelle decided to return to New Orleans in nineteen Ninety-three, according to Pat, Michelle left town Volvo sedan she purchased in his name leaving him to make the payments. Once back in New Orleans. Michelle started working as a waitress while she earned her GED. She had always been an animal lover and decided her new dream was to become a veterinarian. But that meant a lot of schooling which required money that Michelle didn't have once again, Michelle relied on her charm and her looks she'd been able to monetize those before why not one more time for what was in her mind a noble cause in one thousand nine hundred three she started working in a strip club to earn the money. She needed to pay for school sandy wasn't happy with her decision. But Michelle was undeterred. Unfortunately, the money wasn't coming in as quickly as she hoped. So the following year, she decided to move to Alaska where the oil economy was booming and the ratio of men to women was the highest in the country. She rationalized that by moving. She would. Reach her dreams, even faster Michelle and a fellow dancer drove up to Anchorage together in the Volvo sedan. She supposedly scammed out of Padua Gante. They both got jobs at anchorages most popular strip club. The great Alaskan Bush company or the Bush as most locals called it. Michelle danced under the stage. Name Bobby Joe, although she wasn't the most talented woman on the poll men were mesmerized by her end Djelic, look and her ability to hold interesting conversations. She quickly became a star attraction at the Bush. In addition to her tips customers gave her furs and jewelry numerous men were eager to buy one on one time with Bobby Joe as she was well-known for making them feel special and worthy of her attention. Michelle was making one two three thousand dollars in tips every single night. Bobby Joe's biggest tippers were lucky enough to have the opportunity to get to know Michelle outside of work hoping to be more than just a loyal customer. Michelle started seeing multiple men outside of the Bush stringing them along with the possibility of a real relationship in exchange for their attention and gifts, this would only feed her narcissistic tendencies, according to an article by Dr Steve Bresser Nurse assists, often believe they are of primary importance in everybody's life. And to anyone they meet they expect everyone to pay attention to their needs at all times every night at the Bush. A new man was telling Michele how important she was to him validating her own feelings of self importance by the fall of nineteen ninety four Michelle was well on her way to veterinary school with the support of several men financing her dreams. One of those men was thirty four year old can let me. Can't came from a well off family in Michigan. His parents Ken in Betsy owned a successful grocery store chain and he eventually joined the family business in his late twenties. But he didn't enjoy the work when his parents realized that he had embezzled almost a hundred thousand dollars from the business. He was strongly encouraged to find another ocupation Kent drifted a bit for the next few years. He spent some time in Tennessee studying taxidermy at a game farm in Nashville eventually his friend offered him a crewman job on a fishing boat in Alaska intrigued by the idea of the rugged lifestyle. Kent move to Anchorage in the summer of nineteen Ninety-three. On the fishing boat. Kent found his true calling thriving for the first time he was able to repair his relationship with his parents who were proud of his progress. In fact, his father Ken was so impressed that he agreed to finance Ken zone, commercial fishing business. Kent bought a fishing boat and opened up shop in nineteen Ninety-four soon enough the money started rolling in with cash to burn he began frequenting the Bush in October of that year. Like, so many others he was instantly smitten with Bobby Joe, what started as a crush eventually became Kent's obsession he spent almost fifteen thousand dollars on Michelle in the first few weeks of knowing her a month into the courtship he proposed and she accepted. He immediately told his family, the happy news and went full swing into planning their wedding. Although they never said a date. He also made an unusual request of his bride to be. She he wanted to wait until marriage to consummate their relationship Ken had never had a girlfriend before Michelle. And so he might have felt concerned about his lack of previous experience and the pressure to keep Michelle happy was becoming more intense. He had to spend more money and provide more gifts on top of this Kent had concerns about a friendship. Michelle had developed with another regular customer at the Bush thirty nine year old Scott Helgi, Michelle assured, Kent that Scott was zero threat to their relationship claiming he was gay, but this was ally. In fact, Scott proposed to Michelle just a week after Kent had given her an engagement ring and she accepted. We'll see how Michelle juggled her dueling engagements after this. You know, what's difficult getting alone? 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You can also view stock collections such as one hundred most popular with Robin Hood, you can learn how to invest in the market as you build your portfolio. Discover new stocks track your favorite companies and get custom notifications for price movements. So you never miss the right moment to invest Robin Hood is giving listeners of female criminals of free stuff. Doc like apple Ford or sprint to help you build your portfolio. Sign up at criminals dot, Robin, Hood dot com. Now back to the story. In November of nineteen ninety four twenty two year old Michelle Hughes accepted a marriage proposal from thirty four year old Kent lep Inc. After only a month of dating unknown to Kent a week later. She also accepted an engagement ring from thirty nine year old Scott hill. Katie Scott had moved to Alaska after getting divorced lonely in a new city. He was a frequent customer at the Bush where he met Michelle dancing under the stage. Name Bobby Joe, unlike Kent's open ended engagement Michelle and Scott said a wedding date for thanksgiving nineteen ninety five and started making plans heart of what allowed Michelle to maintain. These two engagement secretly was Scott's business travel. He was frequently out of town for work. So a lot of their relationship was long distance. Still can't was suspicious of Michelle's late night phone calls with Scott, she even flew out to meet him on business trips. If you times, but. But she continued to brush off. Kent's concerns assuring him that she and Scott, we're just friends in an E mail found after his death Kent said to his brother that he felt like a fool admitting that ninety nine point nine percent of the population knew what was up, but he loved Michelle and couldn't leave her. He wanted to believe whatever she told him Michelle admitted later that she made bad choices and pursuit of her goals. According to a study from the university of southern Mississippi people who cheat especially women need to give themselves permission to do what they're doing finding a just reason for their behavior for Michelle that justification was paying for college and making a better life for herself. In March of nineteen ninety-five Scott had a falling out with his boss and quit his job. Michelle had recently purchased a home in was Silla Alaska so to save money Scott moved in with her. He was surprised to learn that Michelle had a roommate can't let pink Kent would stay at Michelle's house whenever he wasn't out on his commercial fishing boat. He was clearly infatuated with Michelle, but she assured Scott there was no romantic connection between them. Although Scott found the living situation odd, he'll at slide Kent on the other hand grew even more jealous of Scott now that they live together. He would obsessively spy on the pair. And supposedly watched them have sex on one occasion. According to Colleen Sinclair a psychology professor at Mississippi State university. Once you're surveilling, your partner, the relationship has shifted from courtship to stalking. She explains. Quote, people think it's about. Being so in love you're not able to control yourself, but you're driven by retaliation. And obsession rather than love and idealization and quote. Kent even went so far as to follow the couple to Louisiana when they went to visit Michelle's mom together while Scott and Michelle were sleeping, he entered their hotel room and served them a surprise breakfast in bed, although he played the incident off as a funny prank. Mitt was anything, but Scott continued to complain to Michelle about her strange roommate, but she kept reminding him that they would be married soon enough and away from Kent. Unfortunately, the couples hit another roadblock several months after moving into Michelle's house Scott discovered a heavy dry rot infestation. It was so bad. He was amazed the house hadn't collapsed. Michelle hired a building inspector who. Agreed. With Scott's assessment. The house would need major remodeling and wasn't safe to live in until fixed. Luckily, Michelle had yet another special customer, she met at the Bush who could help her with the housing issue. Thirty eight year old John Carlin the third. Third. John Carlin had come into a small fortune of one point two million dollars. When he sued a former employer for exposure to lead paint, John and his wife Nancy had always dreamed of visiting Alaska Nancy was dying of cancer and wanted to see the Northern Lights before she passed. They used their newfound wealth to make the journey with their teenage son young John, unfortunately, the trip weakened her health, and she died a few weeks after they arrived. Now, a widower John decided to stay in Alaska and build a new life for himself and young John. They're buying a house in south Anchorage. This purchase sparked an interest in real estate, and he started a business venture with Kirk wicker sham. A local real estate lawyer. To celebrate. Their new partnership Kirk took John to the Bush introducing him to the club's lead attraction Bobbie Jo he started spending all of his free time and a lot of his money at the club. He was quickly allowed access to Michelle outside of the Bush. Not only did he buy her expensive gifts. He gave her the down payment for the whistle house. He was happily devoted to the new woman in his life. But the rest of his responsibilities were crumbling around him John's business venture eventually fell apart due to his reported anger issues and young John was struggling with the death of his mother to avoid dealing with these problems John invited Michelle on a trip to Amsterdam with him in the summer of nineteen ninety-five while Ken was easy for Michelle to influence. Scott was not thrilled with the idea of his fiancee going across the world with another man when they were four months away from getting married, but Michelle can. Vince, Scott, the John was impotent, and he finally relented during the trip John and Michelle began a physical relationship, even though she was still engaged to Scott and Kent when John found out about Michelle's dry rot problem he jumped at the chance to move her into his house. So they could be closer, even if it meant having Scott and Kent there too. They all agreed to move to the house in south Anchorage, a decision that would change their lives forever. Once they moved into John carlin's house Scott began to heavily suspect that Michelle and Kent were more than roommates Kent doted on Michelle and was always hanging around her Scott became more and more annoyed by the situation. But Michelle kept insisting nothing was going on that fall. Their relationship was put under further strain. When Scott started a new job and resumed traveling frequently then the thanksgiving date, they'd said a year prior came and went with no wedding for Scott, and Michelle Kent, notice the couple's troubles giving him hope that he would finally be the last man standing, but as Michelle's relationship with Scott seem to be slowing down. She started growing closer to John Michell continued to manipulate Kent assuring him that John was only a friend. He was her fiance. Not John but just like in with Cilla Kent spied on his house. Mates. He would snoop through emails credit card bills anything he could get his hands on to figure out what Michelle was doing behind his back. Once again, his fears were warranted in December of nineteen ninety-five, Michelle and John told young John they were getting married. This was Michelle's third engagement without ever breaking off a single relationship with her other fiancee's as Megan Holland described in the Anchorage daily news, they had become entangled in this. Bizarre. It wasn't even a love triangle. It was like a love hexagon. In January of nineteen Ninety-six Scott, officially moved back to California for work. He was frustrated with sharing Michelle and all but ended the engagement although the two still kept in touch Ken decided to double down on his relationship with Michelle and made her a partner in his commercial fishing business. She thought another boat would help them expand the operation, and they applied for a loan together. However, Michelle was concerned that if something happened to Kent she would be forced to default on the payments and could lose the fishing business. So on February fourteenth nineteen Ninety-six Michelle and Ken met with a life insurance agent to obtain policies of a million dollars on each of them. If anything happened to either of them, the policy would cover the loan and other business expenses. However, the insurance company was not willing to ensure Michelle for that much money. She was considered a peripheral part of the business. Business and the couple was still unmarried they agreed to ensure Kent for million dollars and Michelle for one hundred and fifty thousand and wasn't what they were expecting and Michelle was annoyed. But they took what they were offered. Michelle was an eighty percent beneficiary of the million dollar policy with the other twenty percent going to Kent's parents can't was the sole beneficiary of the smaller policy a few months later on April eighteenth Kenton, Michelle met with his lawyer, Brian Brendan to rewrite Kant's will all of his property would now go to Michelle. During the meeting. The couple got into a fight. Brendan heard Michelle insinuate that can't was involved with a man yelling I can compete. If it was a girl they ended up leaving his office before finishing the changes to the will. But can't return alone. The next day. He won and Brendan to sue northstar behavioral hospital for revealing his medical history to Michelle they told her that Kent had sought counseling from them while she was there with young John Brendan was surprised by Kent's reaction. Michelle was his fiancee. Why was he so angry that she checked up on him he proceeded to unload on Brendan telling him all of his complaints about Michelle and they're supposedly engagement he accused her of stealing various things from him to the tune of fifteen thousand dollars, the even told him about her affairs with Scott, and John Brendan told Kent he didn't think he was heading for a happy marriage. He warned him that Michelle was unlikely to change. Recounting the fable of the scorpion. And the frog feeling a little unsettled Kent went to see his friend Kirk wicker sham. John carlin's former business partner he told him his concerns about Michelle that his life was not what he thought it was. And that things were going on behind his back. He warned Kirk. I'm gonna get killed. Kirk was stunned. He told Ken to move out of Johns home as quickly as possible. He also urged him to report his suspicions to the police, but cancelled session with Michelle made that impossible for him. He couldn't live without her. He had to be the one to win her forever. He did return to the insurance agent, however and made his parents the full beneficiaries of the million dollar policy. He took the beneficiary change for him into the pocket of his jeans on April twenty sixth nineteen ninety six. Kent's father Ken flew to Anchorage. To help his son get ready for the upcoming fishing season. But he also wanted to get a better understanding of the relationship with Michelle. Although his parents wanted him to be happy. They had reservations about Michelle's motives, according to Kent's mom Betsy. It's hard for a mother to be this honest. But it didn't seem like she loved him. Like he did her while in Alaska Kent showed his father the life insurance policy. It made can uneasy, but Kent reassured him with ally telling him that Michelle's grandfather had paid for it as a gift throughout Kim's. Visit Michelle was nowhere to be found humiliating Kent on Monday, April twenty ninth Kent took his dad back to the airport. He left disappointed by the trip and worried for his son. And with good reason, it would be the last time he saw Kent alive. Just days later on may second to utility workers. Drove up the keanae peninsula located over a hundred miles south of Anchorage. They were checking the transmission grid for any issues around ten thirty AM. They reached the small town of hope along the cook inlet to inspect a seventeen mile stretch of power lines in turn off at mile two. They saw patch of crimson in snow as they approached the workers realized it was a man's body surrounded by a pool of blood. He was lying on his back. His mouth wide open his face smashed in the mmediately called nine one one. When the police arrived on the scene they were able to identify the man as thirty six year old Kent lep Inc. Coming up. We'll follow the investigation into Kent's murder and here his letter from the grave. What would you do to stay alive? Would you drink your own urine? Wade through snake infested, water cut off your own arm. There's no way I'm cutting off my own arm. I wouldn't be able to do it. You might be surprised at the lengths you'd go do in order to stay alive. And every week the podcast networks new show. Survival tells the high intensity stories of people in life or death situations and explores the strategies they use to survive survival. Also, examines the lasting psychological effects of living through a traumatic event, and what it's like to return to normal life. You won't wanna miss the astonishing story of one man's heroin escape attempt from a North Korean internment camp and the amazing account of a pilot and passenger who were stranded in the snowy Canadian Yukon after a plane crash. Their stories exemplify the human spirits ability to triumph over deadly adversity. New episodes come out every Monday search for and subscribe to survival wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, search survival or visit park cast dot com slash survival to listen now survival. How far would you go to stay alive? And now back to our story. On may second nineteen Ninety-six to utility workers. Made a gruesome discovery while checking power lines on an isolated Alaskan trail Ken Leppings had been shot dead. His body left in the snow. When state trooper Randy pilch arrived on the scene. He checked. Kent's driver's license and checkbook to confirm his identity. Two names were printed on the checks Kent lep Inc. And Michelle Hughes the address listed was for the Wasila house in Kim's back pocket was completed life insurance warm to change the beneficiaries on his policy. A firearms expert on the scene was able to quickly identify that the empty forty four casing scattered on the ground were almost certainly fired from a desert eagle semiautomatic pistol. But the gun evidence also gave him some insight into the mind of the killer. They didn't stop to pick up the spent brass leaving useful evidence behind the scattered shells. Suggested that the murderer was either inexperienced with firearms careless or in a rush when forensic pathologist. Dr Norman Thompson started his examination on the body. He noted that the bloodstains indicated Kent had been shot in the back. I after the initial gunshot he spun around and fell onto his back. He was then shot twice more. The next day. State trooper Mike Sears visited businesses in the small town of hope to see if anyone had seen Kent before he was killed at the discovery cafe a cook named Maria Motoyama recalled seeing him ken't had shown Maria a photo of himself with a woman asking if she had seen his fiancee, but she hadn't several other customers told Sears they remembered Kent he had asked them all if they had seen the woman in the photo Maria till Sears that after can't had left the restaurant defeated the other patrons joked about his obvious girl. Trouble two troopers also paid a visit to the Wasila address listed on the checks on may third. They found Michelle John Carlin and young John working in a storage shed on the property Michelle, and John almost immediately mentioned their roommate Kent saying that they were looking for items they suspected he had hidden from them. They went on. To say that Kent lived with them when he wasn't on his fishing boat. And that he would frequently steal things. The troopers split duties one interviewing Michelle in the house and the other interviewing John and his son in the shed. The minute. Michelle was inside. She asked the trooper what was going on. And why they were interested in Kent. She said she had just returned from a mini vacation in Lake Tahoe. With her boyfriend Scott healthy as the conversation went on Michelle became more and more frantic asking of Kent was in some kind of trouble demanding to know, why the police were there when he told her that Kent had been murdered. She burst into tears shocked and confused once she had composed herself, the trooper asked if anyone had a reason to hurt Kent at first she couldn't think of anything, then she said that Kent was very sneaky and Aligarh. So it was possible. He had angered the wrong person. She even claimed that can't had been known to steal people's social security numbers. The trooper was put off by her behavior. He had interviewed numerous people after a death notification and this one stood out to him as unusual. He thought Michelle was just going through the motions of being upset her tears disingenuous before leaving the troopers told John and Michelle not to touch any of Kent's belongings as they may contain evidence. The also said they would be back for a follow up interview soon. Back in Michigan. Kent's parents and Betsy were still reeling from the news of their son's death. It was made even more surreal by the letter that arrived from him the morning of his passing warning his parents that something might happen to him. He wrote, quote, it's not funny to talk about getting killed. But in today's world, you have to expect anything if you think anything fishy has happened to me, then you can open up the other envelope. I've sent and quote, according to Betsy opening that second letter was the most painful thing they'd ever done. It started quote since you're reading this. You assume that I'm dead. It was my time. And there's nothing that can change that. And quote, he pointed the finger at Michelle and said, quote, I hate to be vindictive and my death, but paybacks are hell use the information in close to take Michelle down and quote can't went on. To accuse Michelle of fraud suggesting they have the IRS audit her. He said, quote, she took me for a lot of money on the impression we were getting married. This may be hard to prove without me present. But give it a shot. It is a class b felony in Alaska, and quote, he next accused Michelle John Carlin and Scott hooky of his murder writing, quote, make sure they get burned make sure Michelle goes to jail for a long time, and quote, but still blinded by his affection. He added quote, but visit her there, tell her how much I really did do love her tell her you love her and help her end, quote, his words confirmed all of Betsy and kens worst suspicions about Michelle instead of finding a new life in Alaska. Their son was murdered in cold blood by the woman that he loved now that they knew who was responsible. His parents would do everything they could to make sure Michele Lynn Eoghan would pay. Although the letter was damning it frustrated the detectives they hadn't found any direct evidence. Linking anyone to the crime. There was no gun. No DNA. No, physical evidence of any kind. And no, I witnesses even cancel letter offered. No explanation for why he believed his housemates were plotting his murder. But the letter was so compelling that the case remained high priority for law enforcement, if the victim knew about his fate in advance. Detectives thought that surely there must be some evidence of the planning of Kim's murder that they just hadn't found yet on may fifth nineteen Ninety-six three days after Kent was found dead state troopers went to John carlin's. Anchorage home to retrieve a gateway laptop that can't had recently purchased thinking. It might have information on it. They asked John if. He knew where it was. He did not Michelle sauntered into the room. And they asked her about the laptop as well. According to her she in Kent co owned the laptop, but it had recently started having some problems. So she sent it to her sister Melissa in Utah. Who was a computer expert? She was going to form out the hard drive wiping away any data to fix the issue. But when law enforcement later checked mailing records, they discovered the laptop wasn't shipped until the day after detectives came to retrieve it, the troopers also asked Michelle and John if either of them had seen a forty four caliber gun in the house. Michelle told them that can't owned a forty four desert eagle, but she hadn't seen it in a while John claimed not to know that Kent owned a gun at all they left the house empty handed and frustrated they sent another investigator to Sacramento to interview, Scott milky, but nothing came of it. He hadn't been in Alaska since moving for work and. January police have three potential suspects. But no evidence or probable cause to make an arrest even though detectives were almost one hundred percent positive that one. Or more of them were involved in Ken stat. No one wanted Kent's killers to get away with murder. But there was nothing at this point. They could do although the letter can't sent to his parents was compelling. It was hearsay and not backed up by any physical evidence. In June of nineteen ninety six John and Michelle made plans to get out of Anchorage. John bought Michelle a luxury RV inexplicably. He also designated Michelle as young John's official guardian and set up a two hundred thousand dollar trust fund for her to use to support him until he came of age she planned to enroll him in Catholic school in New Orleans and get him in line. John sold the house in Anchorage and moved back to New Jersey having spent most of his fortune on Michelle. He took a steelworker job to get back on his feet, Michelle and young John headed for New Orleans in the RV in July of nineteen Ninety-six along the way they stopped in Utah to visit. Michelle sister, Melissa and pick up the gateway laptop she had told Melissa to wipe the computer because she was starting a new life and wanted all of the old messages and Email. She had saved for moved this request disturbed, Melissa. And she didn't do it. When Michelle arrived in Utah. She was furious to find out her sister had disobeyed her yelling at her Melissa later confessed to investigators, quote, she told me that people didn't like Kent that he hunted and stuffed animals. She felt that he got exactly what he deserved. And quote, Michelle added that it was too bad that someone didn't torture him first Michelle quickly settled into a new life in New Orleans. She enrolled at Loyola University finally working towards earning. A degree in veterinary medicine, she started volunteering at a nearby zoo and went back to stripping a few times a week to pay for tuition. Young. John grew tired of Michelle's controlling nature and within a year moved back to New Jersey to live with his dad anymore Orleans. Michelle met Collin Lenihan who was studying medicine at Tulane university. The pair immediately headed off and moved in together. Michelle supported them on her stripping tips when Cullen graduated medical school in the spring of nineteen ninety eight they got married surprisingly Michelle paid for her own engagement ring and the cost of the wedding the following year. They had a daughter the couple eventually moved to Olympia Washington where Michelle happily put all of her energy into being a doctor's wife and mother Michelle started volunteering at a crisis, center counseling, people contemplating suicide and victims of sexual assault. She grew passionate about social Justice issues telling church officials at Saint Michael's Catholic church that her main golden life was to make the world a better place. Back in Alaska, Kent, Leppings murder case had gone ice cold still the case stuck with state troopers who felt like they knew who the killers were. They just didn't have the right evidence to prove it when a federal grant opened a cold case unit in Alaska in two thousand and two cans murder was one of the first files taken off the shelf in the ensuing investigation. State troopers were able to finally recover the gateway laptop and restored thousands of emails off the hard drive the messages painted a picture of competing relationships between Michelle Kent, John and Scott rife with jealousy. And Michelle pulling all the strings they also discovered a damning letter between Michelle and John troopers finally had proof that Kent's housemates had learned him to hope with the intention of killing him. Michelle Hughes now, Michelle Linnehan was. Living her quiet life as a suburban mom and a doctor's wife in Washington her past life in Alaska seemed like nothing more than a distant memory. She had no idea that she would soon be on trial for murder. Thanks again for tuning into the special crossover for female, criminals and crimes of passion. Join us next Wednesday as we continue to explore the mind and murder of Michelle Lynn Eoghan, you can find female criminals crimes of passion as well. As olive park casts. Other podcasts on apple podcasts. Spotify Stitcher, Google play or your favorite podcast directory. Several of you have asked how to help the shows if you enjoy them the best way to help us is to leave a five star review. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at park cast and Twitter at par cast network. We'll see you next time. Female criminals and crimes of passion were created. By max Cutler, our production of Cutler media and are part of the park cast network. They're produced by max and Ron Cutler sound design by Michael Lang's ner with production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Carly Madden. And Maggie admire female, criminals is written by Desi deduction and stars Sammy ni- Lamey Hobbs and Vanessa Richardson. Don't forget to listen to the park cast network show survival. It looks through the eyes of the world's most resilient survivors as their self preservation instincts are pushed to the limit be sure to search for and subscribe to survival wherever you listen to podcasts, and please don't forget to rate and review.
Part 2: Judd Apatow Discusses The King of Staten Island, Life-Changing Moments, and George Carlin (ACS May 29)
"Thanks for listening to the Adam. Corolla show on podcast. One Judd Ampato. How is coming up for very revealing one on one real thoughtful guy and funny by the way I tell you about J. B? Well this stuff. I use actually have a box of it in my car because I took all the stuff I needed for my house and I put it in my drawer and my garage and now I'm taking some over to my shop You do in a DIY project. A lot of people are getting back in touch with the garage roots in their projects and everything. And that's one good thing that may come from this whole pandemic. Let's use the Good Stuff J. B. Weld. You don't WanNA use ordinary glue because ordinary glue has the word ordinary in it. And that's not you. You went J. B. Well toolbox. Your kitchen drawer craft room and whatever they've been around for over fifty years wood metal plastic and more. Don't J. B. Well that I should say glue it. Jv Well I hung out with these guys at Seem they're nice and I just went over there and I started talking glue with them because I've always been a fan of J. Well now they do everything and you can get it at J. B. Weld Dot com home depot. Lowe's autozone advance auto parts of Riley Walmart Amazon michaels and more J. B. Well the Adam Corolla show salutes the winners of the covid nineteen pandemic office bad hygiene guy. Yeah you're the dude. Your coworkers can smell to cubicles away. No one has ever had the heart to tell you your deodorant. Ain't working if you even use any and no one's ever wanted to get close enough to see if that smell on your breath was your lunch or if you have a dead tooth but now you work from home and blissfully bask in your own stink on aware and when you go out the mass mandate means you are the only victim of your medical grade Jalapeno sauces. So congratulations off his bad hygiene guy. You are the winner of Covid nineteen. She had apple town is joining us. Of course writer director stand up comedian. Don't sleep on the STANDUP comedy. Just because you're a great writer and a great director. Let's not sleep on Judd appetite. Stand up comedy. The King of Stanton Island is the name of the movies available on demand. June twelfth I watched it last night and I have Many complimentary thoughts. Thank you very much It was A as as as you progress or as you mature as a filmmaker. I feel like you're just getting into more nuanced kind of human stories and and less broader you know based based humor that a fair statement. Yeah I mean I think my intentions early Where to try to make a movie? That was as funny as like the hard comedy movies that I love that also were credible emotionally and good stories. But I certainly was thinking. I'd like to tear the house down every ten minutes and a lot of movies at that time. That kind of amazing like something about Mary and I always can. You Combine Dot Kinda high comedy with real emotions and I think you know this movie. I thought well this is a drama and I. I hope it's funny enough for people but I'M GONNA value the story most and it'll be as funny is it's GonNa be it'll reveal itself to me. How funny it should be because there's a lot of colorful people in it and what was great was when we tested it. Nobody said Oh. This isn't as funny as the other ones. And so that made me happy. Because I think it's a it's a really good story and it's very emotional but it still has as big last but I didn't value the laugh as much usually usually pretty obsessed with like the laugh counts and how hard it's crushing. Well the it's very funny movie but it's it's organically funny. I'm not going to give away too much. But there's a scene with bill. Byrne is kid and a tattoo and it's all very plausible an organic and it's also super funny and I guess that's what you want. I mean it's a situation and bill burs great in this by the way it's amazing. I was rescheduled good actor. I was really. I shouldn't say surprise although just flew out of my mouth but he really shows his acting chops in this movie. There's a scene that is really funny where he meets. Marisa Tomei that is completely organic and hysterical and and filled with a lot of sort of human humanness. Well I don't think you know. His acting career has been his highest Priority you know. He's not a lot of great acting things but I think this is the most he's had to do the most challenging part for him but from working with them you would think he had been doing it for the last thirty years as the only thing he does. He just was ridiculously strong and super funny and also really cared about the character. He wasn't just I score. He really created this. This person is like blowhard. Firefighter who starts dating Davidson's mother right. And it was just really fun to watch. And I guarantee you every great moment in that movie was bill thought of on the set. I mean he was a great collaborator for creating. That are actor and being loose and improvising. This special moments. There you we worked on together in rehearsals improvisations. He just brought a ton to now I was I was blown away by. How great actress but you know. Unfortunately we started the show off by you. Know me saying that Writer director producer. Judd APP Dow. But but stand up Jeddah potato but the way we work as well jet apt as a writer and director and then I guess we'll let him do a little bit of stand up and then bill burr a stand up and I guess we'll carve out a little room in our brain for him to be an actor is well but they both things can be true. You can be a great stand up and be a great actor and you can be a great director and a great stand up. We're just not wired to accept that you know. Yeah I think it you know as we've seen more and more people do it. We buy that. It's all part of the same thing it's storytelling. It's figuring out how to be funny and emotional and it. It's all part of your creativity. I mean bill is the one of the great comedians of all time in a when I you know work with bill and get to see him up close you know when you see him from eight feet away from the wings you realize. Oh there's nobody liked this guy and I'm always amazed at his energy every show feels like it's the last show of his career and he's giving it everything he's got. Just the passion on stage is pretty remarkable but if anyone wants to see my stand up by the netflix special. That's the only plug for that. I'll do but it's you know it. It's there and it's weird that everyone can't do stand up now. I keep talking to friends and going. Are you having a nervous breakdown and weirdly nobody is? It doesn't feel like anybody is having that time with giving it a break. Because they're we have friends that haven't taken more than two days off in twenty five years. So that's that's tough change of life it is and I think in a in a in a way. Maybe it's like a death you know like maybe if you said to somebody who was deeply in love with his wife and if you said hey if something happens to. Luanne could go on and they'd go now I couldn't go on I'd I'd get into a fetal position. I never come out and she dies a breast cancer. And then you see him. Six months later neo. Introduces you to his new lady friend and like maybe every stand up comedian. I've known if I went three days without doing standup I would lose the ability to speak in front of people like I couldn't form thoughts or sentences. But there's something that's been a little strange about this self-imposed or governmental and imposed Sabbath that we've all been experiencing like you're almost forced to step off the treadmill and observe the Sabbath like I do think about the Sabbath I. I'm not a religious person but I realize how healthy it is when people observe a Sabbath. Sorry one day a week. I sit and we talk and we don't have the TV on and we have dinner and we have friends over and we share ideas. We don't share pictures from our cell phones and I go. That's so healthy. I'll never do it. But that's so that's so healthy and this is I think in some ways for some people kind of having a forced Sabbath on a lot of the standups kinda going getting off the hamster wheel and I'm going to do something I thought was going to kill me as it turns out I'm finding some nuance in. It is open because I keep thinking of it as a deathbed moment. Though it's like you're it's it. We're all getting this moment where we might survive. We might not end. Were really thinking so he like how we spend our lives. We like our treating people. We like where we are what we're working on. How are things going in a weird? That's funny people was about. It was about Adam Sandler's character getting sick and then getting this wisdom when he's sick and then as as soon as he gets better he taught us all the wisdom out the window and tries to get his life back immediately and everything k. Then but it is weird for the whole the same time to be in the middle of this assessment right and as a culture. It'll be interesting to see when everything gets back to normal. Who Doesn't act exactly the same way they did before this happen. Does anyone make any real changes? Dramatic changes off of this but know I was talking about it in these terms a few weeks ago I was thinking about the near death experience. And how that's supposed to change your life you know and I'm trying to think of if you in someone should do this. I just find out everybody who was on the flight. Captain Sully landed in the Hudson River and go. Have you changed at all because there was a seven minute period? When you were probably GonNa die like you. You knew. Look if you find out. You have pancreatic cancer. That's horrible information but it plays out over the next series of months. You know we'll have to figure out a treatment or do you know. What do we do that moment? Like the moment the I dunno Chris. You can look it up from the time. There was that bird strike to the time he said it down in the Hudson. That was probably four minutes five minutes. It was definitely enough time for you to be on that plane and having near death experience none of those people got a scratch on them. Did they go back in? Mistreat THEIR STEPSON. That following day. I think this is your next documentary documentary idea. It really is. I mean all their names are on a manifest somewhere. You can find out all we could go interview all of them and find out if if it because sadly just like winning the lottery. I don't think it changes things I I'll say this maybe maybe not but. I'm glad that we have found our first collaboration. I feel like this is the moment and we're going to do it. And we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA find the least fifty of those people and Asa. They made any adjustments. Well you know when we did find people part of the inspiration was I read a couple of articles from big people in the movie business TV and they were talking about how they There there's this one guy who ran a TV network and he was saying I. He thought he was going to die. Then said you what I was sick. I realize we can be number one again. I thought it was so such a crazy. Thought like that's what he thought when he thought he was going to die. Was You know I think we can be number one in the ratings again and I think there are those people that nothing touches them? It doesn't it doesn't get to them. They don't adjust in in any way three hours Sorry three times here. So Three fifteen takeoff three twenty seven. Pm They noticed the bird slurry they called it and then three thirty five PM. Miracle on the Hudson. Right so eight minutes or so. That's enough time to contemplate. That's that's an eternity when you're thinking you're going to die so watching watching the movie The King of Stanton Island first off Pete. Davidson really came across really nicely. Very vulnerable very very likable. Like you really rooting for him. I was thinking about you and I was thinking about me because I was thinking about those guys. Peten assertive crew early twenties. No direction kind of hanging around Rippin Bong loads watching the purge and no direction just just rudderless and I thought I remember being that age and a little bit younger. I think Pete was playing at twenty four year old and the movie being after high school and before I got somewhat established as a carpenter. It was like eighteen to twenty five in this sense. The scariest feeling the scariest feeling was in fear. It was no no direction. Just nothing I had no idea what I was doing and nobody knew neither did anyone around me and I dreaded that feeling I would have wanted to join. The Marines are be incarcerated or like. Have something some. I had nothing to do and I felt like sorta helpless. You always knew comedy always wanted to do comedy. Always were like laser focused on it. What were you doing when you were Pete's age in the movie yeah? I was fully working hard that at that moment. I mean my background was just. I was very nervous about Supporting Myself. I didn't really feel like anybody could support me and I think Adam. Just fear. And my own hyper vigilance. From the youngest age I ten. I'm like I gotTA GET A job. I mean I was thinking that as a really little kid like you. GotTa know what you're doing and you have to stay focused and I was very neurotic about it. My grandfather was a jazz producer so I knew that he had created this career from nothing as a kid in the forties at just chased around Charlie Parker and people like that and beg them to let him record them so I knew there was a way to succeed in show business. If you're hustler. It's somebody but it was very fear driven so when I by the time I was twenty four I was. I was producing the Ben Stiller show on Fox. I met Ben Stiller. I was doing stand up at producing some stand up specials for for people and produce a couple of Tom. Arnold Shows Three Tom. Arnold specials special and I and I didn't have that much experience that I met Dillard. We pitched a sketch show to HBO. They bought it and then they sold it to Fox. We were kids and we thought we were going to do. Some fringe cables sketch show and then suddenly we were on Fox up against sixty minutes from and I had no experience and I was just winging at trying to figure out how to do it and I would sit in my office. Really embarrassed that everyone on the crew was older than me. I felt terrible that I was in charge of anything and I WOULD. L- I would read Stephen Covey's seven habits of highly effective people know how to manage like a people. I really was very overwhelmed by the responsibility of running a writing staff and just getting the show delivered and I would sit in my room listening to self help tapes and one just said over and over again. I am a peace with the world. Everybody in it. I am at peace. Everybody and I was so stressed and when it got cancelled there was a part of me that was like God. I have no gas in the tank. We've made thirteen episodes and I feel like we've been doing this for twenty five years. It was really a lot of work. The IMEN- hyper vigilance. Which Dr drew diagnosed me with Many many years ago and I'm glad you brought it up because I had this experience last night last night I went outside because was fiddling around with the outdoor lighting or whatever it is it was like ten o'clock at night I went out the back sliding door and I've standing at in the dark in my backyard. I watch my son get up and I saw him walking past the long bank of sliding glass doors. And my first thought was oh. I don't WanNa scare him like 'cause all look like a shadowy figure out in the backyard and he'll have no contact still think prowlers in the backyard so I I should've made sure to not do anything or catches attention or whatever but I noticed that he was just looking at his phone and he just walked right on past. He never glanced. He never looked at the Bank of windows or into the dark yard or any of that then. He walked around into the kitchen. I was like okay. I don't want to be standing here. Because he's GonNa see me in. The winter of the point is he never looked up he never looked up and he got his food and he went back in his room and then. I thought to myself. Oh that kid feels safe. Because when I was a kid I would have done a shoulder roll into the living room and then pop my head up and then looked right and left and then crawled on my elbows into the kitchen looking for prowlers looking for people outside feeling vulnerable like couldn't be protected so somehow the feeling vulnerability turns you into it. Turns INTO HYPER VIGILANCE? Like when you see the way animals that live in trees act when they're on the ground you're always looking like okay now invulnerable. I don't I'm not eighteen feet in the air. I I could get run over. Eaten by Coyote like my head's on a swivel. So does the hyper vigilance exist. Sort of organically or is it created because you feel vulnerable well. I think that I've learned in therapy with last. Few years is that we're all in a state of hype of some sort of fighter flight at all times right and so in evolution as it has been explained to me. You would be very aware of. Who's GonNa try to eat me right so our brains are literally designed to avoid getting eaten? So we're built to get scared and run real fast or freeze and that none of that really applies to the modern world. So we're constantly overreacting. Our nervous system is literally built to run away from a bear right and and so I think it and then if you had any trauma as a kid all of that is jacked up right so I I grow up with parents that I didn't think would protect me if somebody broke into the house so I had that kind of sleep with one eye open. Because you're on your own my son just based on the way. He walked from his room to the kitchen last doesn't possess that same fear and rightfully so he would be irrational if he did. How did you grow up? Did you have that sense where your parents would take care of? My parents were very loving but they got into a terrible Boris. When I was finishing up middle school like really bad divorce that never got resolved. It never come down ten years later it was it was still unresolved and I think that. Put me in a state of hyper vigilance. And it made me very nervous. Make when your parents fight a lot whenever they are fighting. Someone's wrong right so if either of your parents is clearly way off and really wrong overreacting and emotional and flipping out as a little kid. You Go oh. I can't trust their advice And so that's what it did to me as great as they also were part of me went like. I think you've gotTA figure out some of this shit yourself but if these people can't even work their divorce out you can't listen to a lot of their advice they're going to be hit and miss at best. Maybe a more nervous person and in the hard part is that is the reason for all my success. All my zest is driven by a dislike terror of not succeeding and as a parent. We're trying to make our kids really comfortable and happy and solid but hope they still have ambition? And that for me like yeah. I work hard because I'm afraid it's all GonNa save it right and you work really hard without that kind of net us that drives you and as you get older. You're trying to get rid of it and I feel like I'm less nuts with all that and I still work hard but not. I'm not as crazy as I was a thirty which was probably good because I was you know I was doing too much and and being too hard on myself and I don't think it makes the work better and you suddenly realize Oh. The work isn't bad. Because I'm hyper vigilant and crazy. All Day it's a lot of wasted energy to some certainly to allot it to some degree. So what I is is. You're hyper vigilant in. You know the difference between a product where you're in the Edit Bay and one where you're not in the Edit Bay and an or how much time you spend in the Edit Bay right because that hyper vigilance pays dividends in the Edit Bay right just thing things you notice that other people won't can't will never never notice so. There is a positive thing to do with that. The problem is you have to be able to shut it off and leave the Edit Bay somehow at some point go home right and not be that lunatic when you get home and rats with that was something that took me a long time to get better at. Which is your almost state when you're at work you're shaking from working hard and focusing and try not to screw anything up in looking for problems. That haven't happened yet to solve them before they even happen. And then you come home and you're supposed to be super mellow and mirroring your children in the normal person just loving and free and and that's a rough transition. I remember I used to go home and I just have to take a shower when I got home. Just for my brain to switch into a more normal gear. Or you're talking about are we. Were talking about hyper vigilance. And it struck me when you said that your parents that you you kind of knew early on that these people weren't GonNa make good decisions. Good decisions for you. You felt like you were. It was up to you. I had that feeling in spades. I always tell people all the time like I learned early on these two weren't GonNa make good decisions working to make good decisions for me and thus there's obvious there's a vulnerability that you feel that our kids don't feel because they we have led them to believe were much more competent than maybe we'll have in our. I really feel like you need to screw up your kids just enough so they want to get the hell out of the house you know I. I think I've accomplished my daughter. Maud is in the movie kings island. She plays beat sister. And she's on show euphoria and that. Tv Show Hollywood. And she's working her ass off. And I'm like I may have screwed her a perfect just the perfect amount a perfect amount. She's responsible but creative and erotic enough to be interesting and she does a great job. I had a kid. Is like a poached egg. Which is you? Don't want it. Braun all running all over the place and you don't want it hard boiled. There's just their stats. Ya Spot for. There's just a little that yellow in the Middle. And if you scroll up just enough you'll get the perfect poached eggs. Sorry you're also. I can't say that I did a better job than my parents and I can't hit that. My parents did a bad job. I everything's going well but that's how I felt as a little kid. I'm sure that they did most everything very well. And as a little kid be idea that there were these two people and they made me. I'm half him. I'm half her and they hate each other. Create something psychological in me like I don't know of if I'm with my mom. She's mad at my dad. I think I'm alight him. You know and I think you just get a lot of feelings about who you are when there's so much strife also back then. No one talked about their feelings. I mean they never really sat me down and said Hey. Let's go to the therapist or let's Kinda work through what's going on. There was a lot of just denial. There was no conversations about how is this affecting you. How are you doing? I told the story before but my dad left out a book on a coffee table that was called growing up divorced with the hope that on my own. I would read it. And here's the weird thing. I did read it and it was helpful. I didn't know he left it there for me to read. I thought was. This is book but years later. I said to my dad How did you know I read it? Like you didn't even know I read it and he was like I hope. I hope you read it but you never asked me if I read it. You didn't know I read. It just left the book out and hope that would solve the problem. The the the hyper parenting that was done. Then versus now as people can't believe how far we've we've traveled in such a short period of time. But I do you know I think a lot of people thought nothing about smoking in front of kids back in the day. You're roll the windows up. Light a winston smoking in restaurants eating out. Whatever it is they I think adults did kind of the same thing with arguing and other things that were far more dangerous than secondhand smoke. I sure just screaming in front of Voss who they didn't they wouldn't hesitate to just scream at each other with kids around right and you know we both been married for a while and we've had our desktops but always super careful to do it in a way. That's not within earshot. The kids and I could remember. My mom locking herself in her bedroom and just yelling freakout as loud as you could and I was like standing outside her bedroom going. Oh my God now. I'm freaked out as well. Because you're basically the captain of the ship and you're screaming into the intercom. You have no idea what's going on and then I do my. We're getting divorced. 'cause I heard them through the wall rarely and then they told me like a couple of weeks later but I had heard the whole discussion through the wall. You were. Wha what age at that time well. I literally happened in seventh grade. Then they got back together and then they broke up again after ninth. And you know the seventies you know. That was a completely different time. I remember my dad reading this self. Help Book Your erogenous zones and we all we always said that was the book that made him WanNa get divorced he you know. He finally read something out his feelings. He finally read something that you know. Help them figure out. He was happy or not happy. And that was all new in the seventies you know. People were just beginning to consider those things you know. These were World War. Two kids and their parents didn't express themselves openly and talk about what they were going through. I wonder if there's a renaissance for that in today's society. Meaning so I. It was funny. I was talking to rob lowe sort of about this subject. Were all generally the same age and he was explaining that his mom and his dad did sort of the same thing like they won on some sorta journey instead of raising their kids. You know like my mom did the same thing. She got a bio rhythm wheel to figure out if there's an extra critical day or not started going like you know so what happened was is you have a ten year old kid and at some point you have this. A piffle worked on myself. I've never I've never i. You know what I'm going to start focusing on me and it's like that's great but you have a ten year old so there's a there's an interesting version of that going on now a much healthier version but there's a lot of like fifty year olds are like. I'm getting into meditation and I'm going full Vegan and I'm GonNa go to retreats and I'm GonNa go to primal scream therapy and stuff and it's good but there's still an element of what about the kid while you're over here. We try to tell the kids about it. Now you know we we try to get our kids to meditate and we get our kids to understand how their mind works and talk to someone they feel like talking to somebody and it is a very different conversation and we've always been open with them in a way my parents happen. I mean we'll say to our kids like you know we're normal people. We have problems you know. We don't present ourselves as perfect beings. Will you better listen to or we're GONNA kick the shit out of you? I mean that's kind of what it felt like to me as a kit was like you're in charge again trouble. It's GONNA get messed up here like I was scared of my parents of doing things getting in trouble and and it's not like they did anything but I would. But that was a generation that threatened a lot right. There was a lot of threats and But we're not like that with our kids in the sense that we go. We're not perfect and I'm GonNa tell you how I'm not perfect and you can call me on my shit and I'll tell you why maybe I mishandled something and I think that's generally a better way to do it so that they go. Okay my as a real person and this is you know you're his issues. Sometimes this is the thing that upsets him for this reason. And hopefully that's a better way to do it if any and knowing them like. Hey you WANNA meditate. It's go put on COM APP FOR LAW. Because he wanted to learn the lessons. You learned at fifty at seventy eight and there's no way they will rise. You gotta go through it but maybe you can give them a little star do So for you this. This movie's a real. I don't know what to call it maturation or something. It's it's it's a really strong film and it's it's got a ton of heart though. I always hate when people say that but it does come mind and and it's got a lot of laughs and it's like I feel like it's what judd has been evolving into over the last few years the King of Stanton Island is it So for you. Are there things you want to do? Can you do anything you want? You know I interviewed. I wasn't who'd I interview wasn't Scorsese? It was Coppola and I interviewed him like ten years ago and he said I'd like to make this movie and that movie but the only let me make this movie and that movie and I. It's surprising when you talk to people that are very accomplished or had hall of fame type careers and they kind of explain how. I can't really do this. I could only do that Is there something you want to do or is there things you want to do and feel like they won't let you do it or you're going to have to do it on your own or they're things that have nothing to do with show business? Hollywood that your you'd like to discuss well. I think that the budget you know skirts says he wants to do these movies. That are very very expensive. Coppola sorry I screwed that up. That'd be well co I never quite understood what I think. He was more experimental. I mean he really wanted to do things that people had done and tell stories that were not necessarily the types of stories that manged dream America was seeking out and then it really is like well. How much money do you need to do it right you know? Do you need three million dollars? You need forty five million dollars and you know that's a business you know you have to figure out how you're going to play the game. And Scorsese clearly found a way. A to score enough times that he's he's given these opportunities to do something like the Irishman just just yesterday said they're green lighting his other movie which is a hundred fifty dollar one hundred fifty million dollar. Western with Leonardo DiCaprio. And Deniro. I think that Eric Roth wrote so. It's really how much money you're asking of people like for me. I don't need that much I probably need. I'm not making cheap cheap movies but I'm making movies. Basically the same budgets have for the last fifteen years I'm not suddenly going like but now I need one hundred twenty to do it like it's same scope and wanting that I am allowed to do is they will let me make a movie with someone who isn't a movie star Because that's kind of what I like to do which is get people excited. Because they don't know the star or they know them but they haven't seen him be the star for me. It's more exciting to to show you pete. Davidson Bill Burr. Ricky Villa's and a lot of people you don't know because I think you ought loves it. They love to discover somebody right. And that's the thing that because it's worked a bunch of times. They'll allow me to do that. Not everyone is allowed to do. Is there something you WanNa do that? Maybe they don't want you to do no. I don't have that many ideas stack of thoughts. You know I'd like usually I finally thought and then I try to figure out how to get someone to let me do it but I don't have have almost zero movie. Id is sitting around. So it's not like I have a stack of my rejected. Things usually don't happen. It's because the actor or the actress turned me down out and I thought it's something that's so specific to someone and then they say I don't want to do it in their kind of isn't anyone else who can do it dies because of that. The Zen diaries of Garry shandling is a great doc. It's a multi series stock right. Yeah that was great. And whenever we talk off the air we always talk about docks any thoughts about any subjects for docks or you know. I make a lot of docs about cars. Feel like maybe you doing them about comedian. Sounds sounds qualify for that? Yeah I mean we're excited When we're talking about making a documentary about George Carlin and that somebody that hasn't had that kind of treatment before and he's been so important so many different eras of comedy. So I'm I'm very excited. Especially now that the world is so weird crumbling in so many ways when you look back at his last few specials and way when he was really angry and did some dark comedy people have started passing around these bits steam on the Internet all the time and they all sadly apply to a lot of things that we see happening in the world. Yeah like when he's talking about the immune system and growing up and jumping in the river and being exposed to all the germs. And all that stuff yet. You know the thing that's really interesting about a real philosopher like George Carlin like a guy who really studied life is when you think about some of the things that some of the classic philosophers said Plato or whomever from what you know thousands of years ago they all sound perfectly APP for today like in you realize that the thing about I think it's like great design you know something that was architecture from the seventies looks like shit today but really great art. Deco Design Looks Awesome today and Music Music Disco -I early eighties flock of seagulls. Send throttle you know. It sounds horrible and dated but really good music the Beatles George Harrison Graham Parker. Thank you time timeless service stuff and I feel that way about comedy right like George. Carlin is doing as a philosophy and it's sorta timeless because good philosophy's always always true. His stuff does an agent. A lot of comedy has age really badly and his his dozen he. I mean there's an amazing bit goes around the Internet where he says about government that you don't have any rights you just have the rights that they want you to think you have right and it's a really remarkable long routine where he just talks about the entire game being rigged and I've never been conspiratorial but you feel like the world has become more and more trend. You see the relationships between countries and governments and and what is allowed to happen? And what are People's motivations are doing things and it is hard not to think that a lot of with George George. Carlin said about financial interests controlling the government. And how a lot of what we think is reality. Isn't it's like meant to sedate you so you won't question anything. That was a big thing he talked about. They want you on your gadgets. They don't want you to get a good education so that you don't pay attention to what's happening. Well I have a a thought. I'm I'm going to tease 'cause I got to run a quick spot here but I I realized with guys like Carlin and and others where you go. What information do you have? Do you have documents? That aren't there unredacted. Or what what? What have you gotten your hands on? That gives you the information but in a way if you have a brain like George Carlin you have all the information. Because you're always reading the tea leaves around you. You don't need documents you know what I mean. You have a way of thinking. That has such clarity to it that you can suss. These things out other people need evidence. You have your own divining Rod your brain and you you see so much truth where other people. Don't talk about that in a second. I hit True Nigerian heard about The trend of NASD boosters. Only one backed by both clinical research and regulatory approvals. True Nigerian from age forty to sixty humans experience a near fifty percent decline in NASD LEAVING. The MITRO MIGHT OKA- Andrea to compete for shrinking supply of their most valuable energetic resource stress on the immune system lack of exercise. Overeating can all also Deplete NASD because cells have to expand for more energy function? I take true night in on a daily basis. Shannon Sharpe who's in phenomenal shape does talk to him the other day. So many folks. Who ARE THEY. Don't talk about it. They just do it and I talked to the owner of the company and He's really onto something here. I've been on it. It's about four months now. True Nigen you can visit T. R. U. N. I A. G. E. N. DOT COM and use the Code Adam. Twenty bucks off your First three-month supply or three months plus apply now until May thirty first to get going but tried notice a difference. All right. We'll take a quick break. We'll come right back with JUDD. Appa towel and finish up right after this. It's time to check Adams voicemail. Adam calling it the city island New York. Do we really need douchebag dirtbag and scumbag. I the different. You can leave us a message at eight eight eight six three four one seven four four. Well I've been lobbying for a long time to get rid of DOUCHEBAG and replace it with Douche nozzle which is far more offensive and Gets the job done so In my world we can get rid of dirtbag and douchebag and we'll switch to do nozzle and if you'd like to put it in a sentence jet APP Dow I'll happily do it. It could work on the construction site when like the former Maranh. Hey you do schnauzers get back to work that version of it. There's there's one cut off the cab driver and he calls you Douche nozzle when he pumps his fist at you. It's got a lot of applications switch. We got a switch up. The curses a little bit. They're getting repetitive. At this point you know it was funny. Our production company aiming at Jimmy Kimmel in Daniels production company is is called Jack Whole Productions and Jack Cole productions came from when Jimmy and I were on the radio we they'd say you can say titties but you can't say tits and you can say God damn but you can't say God damn it and they had like a whole bunch of dumb rules and Jimmy set out to think of a new swear word and he came up with Jackal even though and then they let it through then let it through because George Carlin had not given the seven words you can't say I mean literally the FCC built their rules around. George Carlin's seven dirty words. I remember we said something sucks on on Fox and they said you can say sucks. You have to say what you are sucking. Can't be like you suck you suck eggs or right. It'd be balls you know. You have to know what you're sucking. They do this thing where they would go. You can say you're pissed off and you can say you're taking a piss but you can't say you pissed on your girlfriend like it was like when I was doing the man show with Jimmy. I said we said I asked crack. Can you show? And they said You can show some ass crack like if you're doing a plumber bet on acid Ala. Dan Ackroyd norge man or something but hey I said they said they thought about it and they said you can throw even show three-quarter -at's cracks so three quarters of the total craft the total crack. So we invented three-quarter ask cracks shorts to put on all the dougie dance squads. I it was simpler time. So are you. Are you moving forward with the George? Carlin doc are just thinking about it. We're we're about to start whereabouts. We haven't started yet. We have the full of Garry shandling team and you know that's that's a multiyear projects but were very excited to to do that. And how does it begin for for you? Obviously there's a lot of research. Yeah I I think. A lot of for him is absorbing the material all you know all the dispatch and trying to figure out the arc of his Of His thinking you know. How did his thinking evolved from the sixties till his last special There's there's the personal side there's the creative side I think we're very interested in the creative side and how it applies to today in a what did what did he talk about that. We're now seeing inaction today and you in advance sort of think. Well this has got to be three partner because the guys breadth and width of his career was so great or to someone else side that I mean it's a two parter and and I think I like that format you know too long parts but you know I enjoyed ten parts of Michael Jordan. I was fully. I was fully there. I as a fan of documentaries. When they're working they don't have the end. I can watch an hour of of a of a good once a week for a really long time. I you're right. There's no expiration date. I watched the ten. The last dance episodes Like like like eating a bowl of cereal in two minutes and I was done and I was like I need a second ball. Where is it like the following? I had a little bit of post traumatic stress disorder the following week when I turn on the TV on Sunday. And it's like. Oh that's it all ten I'll ten or gone. It was good. It was like two Sopranos in a way like when you knew those products was ending a man. There's only like three more surprise. It W had that feeling of something special you wanted to go on and on. I'm hoping at some point someone will put on the Internet. The edit of it before Michael Jordan gave any notes here's the cut before he's the neons that section. I don't WanNa talk about that. I don't get the sense that he did a lot of that but it would be really interesting to know what was too far. It's funny our relationship with guys like Jordan because there's a part of us that hates the bully in him and then there's another part that respects the shit out of essentially the same qualities that made him the bully and I don't know where you come down on that our approach well. I don't know because I'm not an athlete. So you can listen to him. Say you know if you can't take shit from me. How are you gonNA be able to handle it during the big game but I think you know that's not really how those teams function? I don't think that's why the Balts the Boston Celtics were greater. You know why the Lakers were great in that era because someone was Screaming at them like that the entire time. It may have worked for that team. I mean obviously what they accomplished but Golden State Warriors. That's not how that team functions. So it's hard to know. If it really motivates people to question should be given to the people around him to go if he didn't yell at you think you still gonNA played. Well you need that or were you going to work your ass off anyway. I think I think the rule is. Someone is allowed to yell at you to do things as they're doing the exact same thing they're yelling about. The PROBLEM COMES. We see it with the government all the time where they say. Here's what you gotTa do. And then we find out there doing something else. The president not wearing mask right. You can't say do vast and then not do that that exactly right. That's where it breaks off. I think Jordan Jordan yelled at everyone to do seven eighths of what he was already doing and I think that's effective or could effective if people if he just yelled at people that do it and then he did half of what he was yelling about than it would never work right. Well it was interesting. 'cause I just wanted the Lance Armstrong documentary. Yes that at and you know. There's certainly certainly. There are some commonalities in terms of people who just burns so hot to win. They're just GONNA tear them village down to make it happen. There's a there's a madness and know people who can decade after decade. Spend that much time on a bike that much time in a gym and the focus never weakens doesn't soften and you see it in Lance Armstrong's is you see it in Jordan's is like Jordan laughing at at the other players hand. The computer added. They tried to say that they were good. And he just laughs at them. And there's a lot of that with Lance Armstrong to where he kept saying over and over wouldn't change a thing. Change a thing really half nothing. But not is the competitiveness is still there and they don't know what to do with. It is still in their minds. Well you know I was watching the Lance Armstrong Story. I was thinking about. He starts office a traffic and all that is pure. Will you know you can see Jordan? Jordan had a forty two inch vertical You don't have that you're not. You're not dunking from the free throw line Lance Armstrong when he was fifteen was like competing in triathlons against professionals and he was competitive and even winning. And you realize that's all well I mean yeah. Some people are a little stronger than others and some people have a little more endurance than others. But what you're gonna you gotTa Swim. Two Miles you're going to run a marathon. You'RE GONNA ride your bike one hundred miles eight one hundred percent will. That's what that guy is Jordan. Jordan is what happens when you take Lance Armstrong's will in put it into a guy who six seven and as a forty inch vertical. Oh absolutely and I think Kobe was like that. You know all those people. The first first person in every day last person to leave but for decades. That's what's what's interesting to me and I see in comedy is with Dave Chapelle. Dave Chapelle is working harder than everybody. In addition to just be in great he is out there. Busted his ass doing long shows just writing and it's it did. There's also the will in the creative community. I mean look at Scorsese. He's like Michael Jordan Guy. He's he's deep in his seventies while to take on another hundred and fifty million dollar movie the amount of energy and focus and passion to still. WanNa do that. I'm Dylan's about to put out a double album. I hear this summer. He seventy nine years old. Well last question for you jet. 'cause I know you have a heart out and don't worry I'll I'll give the movie the plugs in the praise so I personally sometimes feel like. I don't WanNA squander my opportunities and or talent like so. What kind of drives me a lot of is sort of well. There's so many good subjects for docs and I want to say. I did as many of them as I could or I have so many jokes. Tell as sort of a squandered opportunity you left something on the table you not money ability. Do you know what I'm saying to you. How does that resonate with you? I try to flip the whole thing as a mental trick for myself. Which is I like to think that my career is over and this is the aftermath and that makes me less stressed. You know if I feel like I need to be in a certain place. The top gamer having a certain output. That makes me really nervous. And it doesn't make me create him so in my head. What I think is my career is over. This is like the sputtering out of a couple of other things. I remember when Dylan put out time out of mind. He hadn't had an incredible album. Delile an out of the blue. You're like Oh my God. That's that might be the best one right. That's how I like to look at my career now like it's over and maybe everyone said might make something time out of mind and that that makes me not worry because the worry kicks up my critic and makes me not work as hard so. I like to think that I retired twenty years ago but then every once in a while I put out album an indie label. Well his Time out of mind for this generation is the king of Staten Island. I watched it in its entirety last night and it is a great film. It's available on demand coming up on June twelfth. Please watch it and watch them great performances in some great direction and grinding as well Jed. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for stepping in. Yes thank you very much take care be well everybody aright let me hit Geico right here. You are Sharing your stuff online. Your dance moves. Diy Haircut fails your inner lip syncs star. How `Bout Gyco does a little sharing so good news. Fifteen percent credit on your car and motorcycle. Policies for current in new customers. Geico's committed for the long haul and luck. They know you're not doing as much driving as you did a few months ago. And they're sharing some of it kicking some of it back fifteen percent credit last your full policy term go to GEICO DOT com slash. Give back and find out how you can get in on this live. By the way Adam Karol as unprepared were doing it from quarantine Monday. Seven o'clock Pacific and you can register now at Sirius. Xm Dot com slash curl and watch me. Performed live from my house like we did it. few weeks ago. Nashville ZANIES COMING UP June twelfth and thirteenth. Doing some live podcasts. And some standup over there. So get those tickets for the sell out. I'm your emotional support animal. Which is a new book out on the Sixteenth pre-order it it just helps and until next time for Vinnie. Turret Judd App town in Ball Brian. Gina Grand Say Mahalo Folly Adam Corolla. She wants twitter and Adam. Corolla show the on twitter at out on girl. I leave us a voicemail at eight eight eight six three four one seven four four and you can watch his broadcasting YouTube dot com slash. Adam Corolla preorder Adams Book. It's out June sixteenth. Get all the links at Adam. Karol DOT COM.
Institutional Level Multi-Family Real Estate - The Investment Management Group - w/Karlin Conklin
"Quitting your burgers of a coffee table. If you WANNA eat a bird or put it on a bar volume instincts to be dubs for the new all American cheese voter fresh juicy fiefs fast tillage crispy around the edges covered dewey cheese and stack to the ceiling with deliciousness knock that baby Dow with a frosted beer at the bar just like the sports God's intended but new all America cheeseburger buffalo wild wings. Please drink responsibly welcome to the strategic investor join us as we interview some of the world's most productive asset managers and uncover sophisticated and unique investment strategies in the markets. Here's your host Charley Right Hello and welcome to strategic investor radio on talk radio where we bring you investment strategies. You are not hearing elsewhere. We'd like to welcome today for the very first first time Carlin Conklin executive vice president and principal at I._M._G.. The Investment Management Group Syndication of investors to acquire value added multifamily properties throughout the U._S. with headquarters in Woodland Hills California Carlin Welcome to strategic investor radio. Thank you Charlie. I appreciate being here so Carlin you came with an M._B._a.. From University of Oregon so you're a duck and you've had your entire career I understand in commercial commercial real estate and in addition you've been the director of the Linquist Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Oregon and taught marketing and entrepreneurship there so give us a thirty second background of yours well you yes so my background is in operations so before I did commercial real estate it was <hes> operations and improving operations for for larger companies. <hes> did teach entrepreneurship. I had a lot of good times <hes> helping to launch breweries and <hes> pro- <hes> companies such as that <hes> and then when the end of the ninety s happened <hes> I looked around and I saw that all the growth wasn't something that it was not tangible like dot coms and made a <hes> made a very important decision that I wanted something tangible something that was operational based and that's why I launched into <hes> investment real estate and commercial the real estate in commercial real estate since about two thousand okay well congratulations for surviving a challenging era here so tell us about I m g the Investment Management Group will what is the strategy you guys follow in doing a value added multifamily properties and kind of what what set you apart here so investors management group. I have to partner Neil Schimmel who is a thirty year real estate. I bet it runs and <hes> Mark Gordon who is <hes> our partner and capital markets. <hes> person financial person <hes> we are strategy is this we are looking through <hes> multifamily the real estate where we're looking to add value to that real estate and by adding value whether it's improving a property it's improving operations what we're able to do is create a better community for our tenants events and we are able to create value and growth in the capital that are investors invest with us we at the start of the cycle right after the downturn. All of our investors were institutional partners so we you were doing large family offices. You know institutional partners with funds we were buying properties early in the cycle in you know twenty ten eleven twelve and so on and as the mark as this cycle is maturing what we began to see is that the institutions that we were we were we were moving in different directions than our partners are partners are wanting to buy quick. They were wanting to drive <hes> the property's value up as the market was was <music> <hes> coming up and we didn't credible our partners did incredible. We were getting twenty five thirty five forty I._R._R.'s but it was a quick move and has the market started changing. What we began to realize is the AH Capitol Niche that is not being met her with not being met are for those accredited investors who are more mature <hes> they are looking for a good operator and a good sponsor and they're not into quick nick? You know let's do a quick flip. Let's let's place ten thirty one money so exchange money from <hes> the cell of other property or let's just invest and let's grow over time. Maybe a five or six year hold reasonable. Oh returns if the market has matured and that is what we are doing today we are working with <hes> accredited high net worth investors who are placing anywhere from twenty five thousand two two or three million with us <hes> <hes> in in the acquisition of value add multifamily real estate okay so so tell us <hes> Carlin one. Why are you in multifamily? You know what <hes> because you can't can't teach dog tricks that the unser <hes> <hes> Neil mark and I that's what we have always done and you know even back in for me in two thousand and <hes> One and two thousand two when I looked at commercial you know let's maybe maybe I'll I'll sell this retail a center by this and that to me itself highly risky because if something happened or or an anchor tenant left the investor or the owner could have a high risk if you could not feel that back that <hes> they can see again and at the end of the day all of us need housing we have to find poems and so if it was retailer office it could take six or eight or twelve months to fill vacancy <hes> or if the market gets off to to to try to break even in multifamily leases are relatively short <hes> if you are having issues you can always raise the rent. Excuse me lower the rent or you can add concessions Russian and so that you can fill your building so for us. It was simply a decision of early on of risk return and today it's because you know we consider ourselves expert in this field so this is what we do okay. What what geographies are you you in <hes> so you know I know it sounds crazy? My Office is in Portland. My partners are in <hes> outside of L._A.. Woodland Hills and yet we we are national so we have but we focused on six seven Metros is all in the country. We have properties in Portland in Seattle so those are west coast properties. We have <hes> properties in Denver. I I happen to be doing this podcast from Denver today. <hes> we have properties in North Carolina in Charlotte in Raleigh. We are also in Georgia and also in Florida so those are those are the metro that we focus on and what are the size projects you do how many units <hes> you know the the cost the going et Cetera so the economies of scale matter so he can't we can't <hes> you can't make money at small buildings. That's not the company that we are. Our buildings are typically tackling a hundred and fifty two three hundred fifty units where you can get a real economy of scale <hes> we're looking at about you know pricing today <hes> going in or let's not do pricing. Let's do equity are equity that we are raising for our buildings or anywhere from twelve million to eighteen or nineteen million per property <hes> a lot of sponsors such as ourselves they will form a fund they will say let's raise fifty to one hundred million and investors place your money in the Fund and you will get diversification by us than placing that equity in multiple deals that is not our model. Our model is we're raising money for each properties separately and in that way we can of course take. Take X. Exchange dollars in Tennessee and common model but we we raise every you know next week we're starting on a building and that'll be US fifteen million dollar raise and you know a month later. We'll do another building but each building is separate with that said we have investors who place you know one hundred thousand in every one of our buildings so they're getting that diversification themselves by going into multiple buildings but we don't have a fund we have we're raising equity for hurt each building specifically okay and I believe that is a little bit different so what you have to do. Carlinhos we all know is <hes> you have to raise money okay. So what misperceptions do you see by investors or their advisers and investing in your type projects. What do they not understand? You wish they understood better what thing so here here's the biggest challenge today which might be totally different than the biggest challenge five years ago but the biggest challenge today is investors have to temper their expectations of returns. They're looking today on forward projections looking into the looking behind the both so just because we could get a thirty I._R._R.. twenty-five i._R._R.. <hes> Bina Property in twenty eleven and selling twenty fifteen. You can't do that today. Everything everything is different. <hes> interest rates are higher. <hes> competition to buy is higher. <hes> regulation is higher and so what we we sort of give many you know <hes> lecture to all of our new investors investors and and it's this these are targeted returns off fairly conservative projections but you need to understand can't say some you know I saw another performance for example. That's projecting a twenty two I._R._R.. And <hes> we don't believe that's a real because everything has moved <hes> the the interest rates are GonNa go up again and so we want investors to understand that real it was state in the compared to the stock market is illiquid <hes> but secondly they need to temper their expectations for <hes> for the next part of the cycle well. It sounds like <hes> conversations this opera Sav with people the stock market these Yeah Yeah Ted Temper expectations here seemed to be kind of everywhere except crypto currency so so what kind of protections do you offer to the investors in terms of loan to value of money that you borrow etcetera etcetera we are typically at sixty to sixty five percent loan's value and we don't go higher <hes> we perceive see that as risky <hes> and you know when <hes> when the market collapsed in two thousand nine and started digging itself out in around twenty ten <hes> back in back in that short period of time what I did <hes> you know we're all looking for. What do you do when the market is is down that deep <hes> I I work with several lenders and I sold notes or I helped to do some workouts? Actually Neil did the same thing and what what we found is. <hes> as a as a as a class of real estate far less multifamily was lost compared to the other commercial classes but the multifamily that was lost was <hes> was because they they couldn't refinance their loans. The principal was there was a loan maturity they could not they could not get a new loan. They couldn't come up to the to a difference between what they might get in alone and what the property property was worth that day and they have no choice but to give their property out there was that was the only resolution and so what we try to do besides going with a little bit lower leverage is we we're trying to give our investors maximum flexibility so that they can make decisions not because of loans and I know that might sound crazy but let me give you an example so <hes> pre cycle. We were putting tenure money. You know we put ten your money on almost everything and but when you put tenure commercial money on you always have you'll maintenance or defense and it's big I mean if you want to get out of alone at five or six years. You're prepayment. Penalty can be a million or two million dollars and that seems a little crazy but also if you if you are stuck with that kind of prepayment penalty you cannot be strategic in selling or refinancing because every decision you make is not on the property if your alone doing I'm making sense and so we do now with our loans is this will we do an initial acquisition. We're putting on variable rate money with an interest rate cap five years inches only ten year loan so so no matter what happens in the next ten years we at least know we have the protection of debt and with the cap you know we're filling pretty good about that too and what we have been doing with our investor groups as we start that way you know we're GonNa Forget about the property. We're going to feel about the market and we throw at about three years into the into the ownership and we'll do an analysis on whether we should sell or whether we should <hes> refinance and do a large Castro's revolution and continued to hold and so in twenty eighteen we had two of our investor groups decide to refinance with a cash distribution and hold and we had one group make the determination to sell so oh that that's that's what we do is debt. Daddy's a critical component of all of these because leverage helps with your return but who are doing it so that we can still make strategic decisions about the real estate not just about what alone is going to do to plus okay speaking of interest rates okay. They're going to rise. We thought it would happen before now at hasn't in fact last few days even gone down but they're going to be rising over over the coming years. How are you prepared for that? And how do you see that impacting your projects. The interest rate is <hes> going to impact cashflow period so our investor groups Kabar <hes> like I said earlier today we do some J._V.'s but with most of our investor groups <hes> their high net worth individuals I would say the average age of our investor is probably sixty. <hes> the and majority of our investors have debt have have owned <hes> multifamily real estate in the past even if it was just a duplex so they understand the elements elements of multifamily real estate and so with these these investors they understand they understand what's going on and what we try to do is when we're structuring are deals as we're trying to structure so that we have a minimum about five percent annualized cash on cash and so we we temper that and we give them what if scenarios on what would happen if we something crazy went on and the interest rate on our our loans went up to the the cats which is typically five and a half to five and three quarters for us and what that would do to their cash flow and I mean look at that and they say you know what I may not be getting the seven or eight percent that I'm I want but but it still as it still is a good cash on cash return. I know what the worst case scenario is. I'm satisfied so our philosophy is is that our best investors are investors who have all the information that we have. They they understand their risks and then they make an educated decision on whether or not to invest okay now speaking of your your investors you mention your high net worth individuals <hes>. Do you work with any institutions anymore. Do you work with primarily. summarily advisors and they're the ones who bring you these investors or do you were directly with the investors charlie we do it all so we have <hes> we have a done even in the last year several <hes> ah j._v. <hes> acquisition in which <hes> we joint-ventured with an institution so we are still doing some of those acquisitions the majority of far acquisitions right now <hes> are in a tendency in common tom and model and with that model we are able to take ten thirty one exchange dollars and so we we will we will be contacted directly by <hes> investors who are in exchanges we also have a very large data ah base of our own investors but then we do have <hes> we're we're contacted constantly by wealth management firms who would like to place some of their investors in what is considered now alternative investment which is real estate and so we from from wealth managers and wealth management firms and family offices i would say any one of our acquisitions has <hes> from one to four million dollars from wealth management firms such as that okay so let's change the subject you just a little bit here <hes> carlin what's the best advice you've ever heard redder received about investing no the operator and so it somebody could could by or or see an extraordinary piece of real estate you let's say in boulder colorado and that that extraordinary piece of real estate if it is not operated well that extraordinarily your piece of real estate is probably going to have <hes> a ten base that that <hes> declines the quality the asset could decline and so what somebody told me was you know commercial real estate you've got up no operations and i'm like i'm an operations person i can do this but it's it's also it's also understanding that that multifamily in particular this is an operating business the there's there's there's income there's expenses there's there's a physical asset and so knowing the operator becomes a critical part of the decision to invest so that you know that i don't care if you're putting in twenty five thousand or twenty five million and you know that that asset is being taken care of the that's great advice especially for for real estate for other assets if it's a mutual fund it's a little bit different but certainly for real estate no no question about it <hes> i can recognize the value the value of that so so let's move on a little bit here as we mentioned before you've been the director of the linquist center for entrepreneurship at the university of oregon and <hes> while there you taught marketing entrepreneurship <hes> just briefly tell us about that whole thing we well that was you know mid nineties <hes> and back in the nineties if you can recall an and investors listening to this this podcast if you can recall there there was a shift and it is in in just how people were thinking it was it was moving into the whole telecom <hes> ah age where this dot com thing was wow look at this dot com thing and somebody could somebody could have a one page business plan that said <hes> paper dot com and we're just highfalutin you know if you do if you if you if you have people dot com you are going to be tech millionaire and people bought into it and they believed in it but it was it was that kind of <hes> frothy in the you know up until ninety late nineties was kinda frothy i'll be back then but what was going on in the in the university's at that time was the understanding that universities and business schools were were not keeping up with the times they were just doing research you know the big universities universities were doing research they were looking at you know <hes> you know we're gonna do statistics and we're going to do marketing we're going to do this and we're going to do that but the market was going to go pass them and the client which is a student was going to go pass them unless they really matched universities which was really going on in the world and so it wasn't just at the university of oregon a number of universities recognized the need to go into entrepreneurship and understand that and so i was was <hes> i just i director of the center we had gotten from one of our <hes> one of our donors a large <hes> donation to the university of oregon and named it the lundquist center for entrepreneurship and the center sure i was there for three years and <hes> and then with each subsequent director it <hes> that next person took the center to the next level and and and it's been extraordinary i mean it'd be has put the university uh of oregon in the business school on the map <hes> the students have done extraordinary things <hes> in nationally and internationally and it was a perfect example of how a university <hes> can look outside credits walls and see how how do we serve our students better by serving communities and that's what they did right i loved it well that's great and congratulations to you and others involved in that and <hes> you know we no longer have dot com phase what we have now is the blockchain phase and so that's how companies agrees value as they put blockchain and their name right and that creates certain value and opportunity for many of them here the bright and you know that is one of the reasons i i love real estate is that it is it is it is finite you can't make more of it you can't i mean this this is an earth the here's what we have and it's taking that piece of dirt and how is it developed and so on and so forth but at the end of the day it in what we do with multifamily it's a community it is in your apartment building as a community but that community sits within another community and it and it's critical and so we value add and this is how our investors think as well we made by a building and and <hes> well let me give you an example we have we purchased a building in tacoma in in <hes> mid twenty fourteen this was a fourteen it was a it's a higher it was a high-rise it was personally sean shuttered so <hes> floors were were shuttered off <hes> it had not been renovated in years <hes> it was it overlooked commencement bay but you couldn't see it because it was literally shuttered and that area the stadium district you wouldn't recognize hardly today but in the stadium district was was really grungy people didn't wanna walk there at night and what we saw is you know in two thousand thirteen we saw that you know something crazy is starting to happen in seattle we don't exactly know what but their stuff going on in seattle at some point people are going to be pushed south and we looked at this building and we said <hes> this is really really rough and it's an it's an eyesore in this entire neighborhood and we did the numbers and we were able to purchase it at a very very good price and we spent i dunno thirty five forty thousand dollars a unit on that building and Not One of the important things is that when you improve building you one hundred percent of the time improve the neighborhood and that that's very very important to us you know congratulations <hes> the those are excellent excellent points rights and I think of how many people have benefited by you guys going in and renovating and improving one particular building here so <hes> question Carlin. We'd like to ask all of our guests. What book on investing would you recommend for listeners <hes> I hope I hope I don't feel less learned than some of your other other subjects here? I read all the journals because again. It's that whole community thing multifamily it is only as good as if you understand the dynamics within a community so I read all the journals whether it's <hes> whether it's Globes Street or Rental Housing Journal or co Star or Kiplinger or the business journal's was in every one of our communities. I want to know what's going on in the community I I need to know what's going on. <hes> legislature legislatively what's going on with with neighborhoods what's going on with jobs. I read all of those so when when I actually read a book it tends to be a murder mystery or the one that I just finished with Michelle Obama's becoming book <hes> I want to read about figures <hes> before that I read the Cleopatra Book by the biographer Stacey Shifts so it was it's about the biographies in particular. How is how does a person <hes> exchange whether it's a nation or it's a community or themselves and make it better for other people so <hes> when it comes to investing I'm reading all the journals when it comes to gosh criminal you sitting next to the river and you were reading a book intensely? If you should have a biography or murder mystery and sometimes those things are the same a yeah they can't be but I've got congratulations. That's right we we can't <hes> we can't be singularly focused here. We need to be <hes> complete individuals and doing other kinds of reading are very very helpful. I say that although I don't practice it very well but no question about it and I and staying up with what's going on an industry and tangent issues with those industries very very important here no question about it so for those who would like to know more about i._M._G.. <hes> tell us where they can go so you can visit our website. Please and that would be W._W._W.. I am G. R. E. DOT COM so <hes> at at our website. You'll you'll get lots of stuff about us as well as if we have a recent offering you can always call me to <hes> my email. My phone is nine seven one eight eight eight four zero one zero extension one zero zero four and the our website. You can always get my email address and I would love to hear from anyone whether it's questions or comments that would be a wonderful thing and trump if I can see one other thing flus the so folks folks will ask me what my strategy is you know. How did you get from here to here and what I what I tell everyone is this you need to start to day? Don't wait for something else or you want to buy. You WanNa do got you have to start to day and so whether it's that the way you start today because maybe you only have <hes> you know two thousand dollars in a bank so maybe today starting is that you are putting a hundred dollars. It's a week in an account that you can't touch or two thousand dollars a week and account in an account you can't touch but you have to start today and every investor I work with that has absolutely bender strategy. I start start today and if you do that and you turn back <hes> twenty years later what you're gonNA find is by starting today twenty years from now you will have doubled or or quadruple Germany and let me Charlie do one more one more minute to tell one of the story not a problem Carlin okay. We're all go okay excellent there because this one is very salient for justice moment and I thought about it. We haven't investor who you <hes> <hes> put a hundred thousand dollars in a building and this was about two thousand three and and held that building a little building held that building because you know the the market completely collapses in two thousand nine and it start digging itself out and self that building in two thousand thirteen and so started with one hundred thousand never had any cash flow in the whole ends up in two thousand thirteen so ten years later with three hundred thousand does attend thirty one exchange and then and then in ten in twenty thirteen puts that three hundred thousand in a twenty four unit in Portland Oregon and this particular investor is sweat Sweat Equity Kinda guy he doesn't take any cash flow he puts all of it back into the building because the buildings pretty rough neighborhoods rough and he kind of believes my community <hes> philosophy role for the roles in rules that and now you know he's mid sixties and he's like I'm tired. I don't want to do this anymore. I want to sell this building which he which he's prep to do. This is going to sell soon so when itself he's going to have equity of no less than two million dollars so what he would tell you. Is that what it took him a long time to save up that money for his first investment and it was one hundred thousand yes but a hundred thousand you know what fifteen years later is two million dollars and it hurt to get that hundred thousand together to continue to roll role and he's done the sweat equity for fifteen years but now he's got two million. He'll probably put it into what one of my syndication and now he can sit back and he can get the fruit of his Labor but is because at some point he started and data is the philosophy that I want. I can impart anyone anything to <hes> listeners. Today is start today. Excellent point here especially <hes> focused on real estate no question about it. It doesn't happen overnight eight but <hes> that's an excellent example of the kind of thing that can happen so <hes> for our listeners here Carlin final words kind of words the start today today Okay and thank you for your time. Hey Hey thank you very much for being with us. Carlin we appreciate an our best wishes to you and I M G for continued success so again. We've been talking with Carlin Conklin Executive Vice President and principal at I._M._G.. The Investment Management Group you've been listening to Strategic Investor Radio on O._C.. Talk Radio you can go to our website to hear podcasts follow our interviews and shows strategic investor radio DOT COM. I'm Charlie Right which you and enjoyable week and productive investing investing strategic investor radio production of talk radio provided for educational purposes only content of this program and the views of the guest should not be considered as recommendations Baio see talk radio or investment advice from the host Charlie writing or any other entity attached to this production investors should always consult qualified financial investment tax or legal professionals prior to investing <music> here comes again lunch Lippi the same old same old or are you ready to take a vacation from the ordinary with the new Jamaican Jerk Turkey sub at firehouse subs freshly sliced smoked Turkey breast credibly sweet mustard sauce and a hint of Caribbean seasoning just five fifty five for medium save time order the new Jamaican Jerk Turkey sub on the firehouse subs APP firehouse subs enjoy more subs save more lives participating locations limited time only plus tax prices may vary for delivery just because it's called higher education doesn't mean high tuition costs have to be the norm at strayer university. 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Institutional Level Multi-Family Real Estate - The Investment Management Group - w/Karlin Conklin
"Welcome to the strategic investor join us as we interview some of the world's most productive asset managers and uncover sophisticated and unique investment strategies strategies in the markets. Here's your host Charlie Wright hello and welcome to strategic investor radio on talk radio where we bring you investment strategies. You are not hearing elsewhere. We'd like to welcome today for the very first his time Carlin Conklin executive vice president and principal at I._M._G.. The Investment Management Group Syndication of investors to acquire value added multifamily properties throughout the U._S. with headquarters in Woodland Woodland Hills California Carlin Welcome to strategic investor radio. Thank you Charlie. I appreciate being here so Carlin you came with an M._B._a.. From University of Oregon so you're a doc and you've had your entire career I understand in commercial social real estate and in addition you've been the director of the Linquist Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Oregon and taught marketing and entrepreneurship there so give us a thirty second background of yours well you yes so my background is in operations so before I did commercial real estate it was <hes> operations and improving operations for for larger companies. <hes> did teach entrepreneurship <hes> had a a lot of good good times <hes> helping to launch breweries and <hes> pro <hes> companies such as that <hes> and then when the end of the ninety s happened <hes> I looked around and I saw that all the growth wasn't something that it's not tangible like dot coms and made a <hes> made a very important decision that I wanted something tangible something that was operational based and that's why I launched into investment real estate and commercial realestate so I've been in commercial real estate since about two thousand okay well congratulations for surviving a challenging era here so tell us about I am g the Investment Management Group will what is the strategy you guys follow in doing a value added multifamily properties and kind of what what set you apart here so investors management group. I have to partner Neil Schimmel who is a thirty year real estate veteran run and <hes> Mark Gordon who is our partner in capital markets <hes> person financial person <hes> we our strategy is this we are looking through <hes> multifamily real estate where we're looking to add value to that real estate and by adding value whether it's improving a property it's improving operations what we're able to do is create a better community for our tenants breath and we are able to create value and growth in the capital that our investors invest with us we at the start of this cycle right after the downturn. All of our investors were institutional partners so we we're doing large family offices you know institutional partners with funds we were buying properties early in the cycle in two thousand ten eleven twelve and so on and as the mark as this cycle is maturing what we he began to see. Is that the institutions that we were we were we were moving in different directions that our partners our partners are wanting to buy quick. They were wanting to drive <hes> the property's value up as the market was was <hes> coming up and we did incredible our partnership incredible. We were getting twenty five thirty five forty I._R._R.'s but it was a quick move and has the market started changing. What we began to realize is the our AH Capitol Niche that is not being met her was not being met are for those accredited investors who are more mature <hes> they are looking for a good operator and a good sponsor and they're not into quick? You know let's do a quick flip. Let's let's place ten thirty one money so exchange money from the cell of other property or let's just invest and let's grow over time maybe a five or six year hold reasonable returns as the market has matured and that is what we are doing today. We are working with <hes> accredited high net worth investors who are placing anywhere from twenty five thousand to two or three million with us. <hes> <hes> in in the acquisition of value add multifamily real estate okay so so tell us <hes> Carlin one. Why are you in multifamily? You know what <hes> because you can't can't teach dog new tricks. Is that the answer <hes> <hes> <hes> Neil mark and I that's what we have always done and you know even back in for me in two thousand and one and two thousand two when I looked at commercial you know let's maybe maybe I'll I'll sell this retail. A center by this and that to me it felt highly risky because if something happened or or an anchor tenant left the investor or the owner could have a high risk if you could not feel that that what that <hes> they can see again and at the end of the day all of us need housing we have to find poems and so if it was retailer office it could take six or eight or twelve months to fill a vacancy they can see <hes> or if the market gets off to to to try to break even in multifamily leases are relatively short <hes> if you are having issues you can always raise the rent. Excuse me lower the rent or you can add concessions and and so that you can fill your buildings so for us it was simply a decision of early on of risk return and today it's because you know we consider ourselves expert in this field so this is what we do okay. What what geographies are you? I'm in <hes> so you know I know. It sounds crazy. My Office is in Portland. My partners are in <hes> outside of L._A.. Woodland Hills and yet we we are national so we have but we focused on six six. Seven Metros is all in the country. We have properties in Portland in Seattle so those are west coast properties. We have <hes> properties in Denver. I I happen to be doing this podcast from Denver today. <hes> we have properties in North Carolina Carolina in Charlotte and Raleigh. We are also in Georgia and also in Florida so those are those are the metro that we focus on and what are the size projects you do how many units <hes> you know the the cost of the going in et Cetera so the economies of scale matter so we can't we can't <hes> you can't make money at small buildings. That's not the company that we are. Our buildings are typically nearly a hundred and fifty to three hundred fifty units where you can get a really economy of scale <hes> we're looking at about you know pricing today <hes> going in or let's not do pricing. Let's do equity are equity that we are raising for our buildings or anywhere anywhere from twelve million to eighteen or nineteen million per property <hes> a lot of sponsors such as ourselves they will form a fund they will say let's raise fifty to one hundred million and investors place your money in the Fund Fund and you will get diversification by us than placing that equity in multiple deals that is not our model our model is we're raising money for each properties separately and in that way we can of course take doc exchange dollars in attendance and common model but we we raise every you know next week we're starting on a building and that'll be US fifteen million dollar raise and you know a month later. We'll do another building but each building is separate with that said we have investors who place you know one hundred thousand in every one of our buildings so they're getting that diversification themselves by going into multiple buildings but we don't have a fund we have we're raising equity for <hes> each building specifically okay and I believe that is a little bit different so what you have to do. Carlinhos we all know is <hes> you have to raise money okay. So what misperceptions do you see by investors investors or their advisors and investing in your type of projects. What do they not understand? You wish they understood better what thing so here here's the biggest challenge today which might be totally different than the biggest challenge five years ago but the biggest challenge today is investors have to temper their expectations of returns. They're looking today on forward projections looking into the looking behind the boat so just because we could get a thirty I._R._R.. twenty-five i._R._R.. <hes> buying a property in twenty eleven and selling twenty fifteen. You can't do that today. Everything thing is different. <hes> interest rates are higher. <hes> competition to buy is higher. <hes> regulation is higher and so what we we sort of give them any you know <hes> lecture to all of our new investors sisters at this these are targeted returns off fairly conservative projections but you need to understand can't say some you know I saw another performance for example. That's projecting a twenty two <unk> i._R._R.. And <hes> we don't believe that's real because everything has moved <hes> the the the interest rates are GonNa go up again and so we want investors to understand that real estate estate in compared to the stock market is illiquid <hes> but secondly they need to temper their expectations for <hes> for the next part of the cycle well. It sounds like <hes> conversations this opera Sav with people in the stock market market these days Yeah Yeah Ted tempered expectations here seem to be kind of everywhere except crypto currency so so what kind of protections do you. Offer to the investors in terms of loan to value of money that you borrow et Cetera et Cetera we are typically at sixty to sixty five percent loan to value and we don't go higher <hes> we we perceive <music> ads whiskey <hes> and you know when <hes> when the market collapsed in two thousand nine and started digging itself out in around twenty ten <hes> back in back in that short period of time what I did <HES> <hes> you know we're all looking for. What do you do when the market is is down that D- <hes> I I work with several lenders and I sold notes or I helped to do some workouts? <hes> actually Neil did the same thing and what what we found is <hes> as as a as a class of real estate far less multifamily was lost compared to the other commercial classes but the multifamily that was lost was <hes> because they they couldn't refinance their loans. The principal was you know there was a loan maturity they could not they could not get a new loan. They couldn't come up to the to a difference between what they might get in alone and what the property worth that day and they have no choice but to give their property out there was that was the only resolution and so what we try to do besides going with a little bit lower loveridge is we we're trying to give our investors maximum maximum flexibility so that they can make decisions not because of loans and I know that might sound crazy but let me give you an example so pre cycle. We were putting tenure money. You know we put ten your money on almost everything and but when you put ten year commercial money on you always have you'll maintenance or defense and it's big I mean if you WanNa get out of alone at five or six years. You're prepayment. Penalty can be a million or two million dollars and that seems a little crazy but also if you if you are stuck with that kind of a prepayment penalty you cannot be strategic in selling or refinancing because every decision you make is not a property if your loan is doing. I'm making sense and so what we do now with our loans is this. Will we do an initial acquisition. We're putting on variable rate money with an interest rate cap five years interest only ten year loan so so no matter what happens in the next ten years we at least know we have the protection of debt and with the cap you know we're feeling pretty good about that too and what we have been doing with our investor groups as we start that way you know we're going to forget about the property. We're going to feel good about the market and we go at about three years into the into the ownership and we'll do an analysis on whether we should sell or whether we should <hes> refinance and do a large Castro's revolution and continue to hold and so in two thousand eighteen we had two of our investor groups decide to refinance with a cash distribution and hold and we had one group make the determination to sell so that that's that's what we do is dead is a critical component of all of these because leverage helps with your return but who are doing it so that we can still make strategic decisions about the real estate not just about what alone is going to do to us. Okay speaking of interest rates okay. They're going to rise. We thought it would happen before now at hasn't in fact last few days even gone down but they're going to be rising over the coming years. How are you prepared for that? And how do you see that impacting your projects. The interest rate is <hes> going to impact cashflow period so our investor groups bar <hes> like I said earlier today we do some J._V.'s with most of our investor groups. They're high net worth individuals I would say the average age of our investor is probably sixty. <hes> the majority of our investors have have have owned <hes> multifamily real estate in the past even if it was just a duplex so they understand the elements elements of multifamily real estate and so with these with these investors they understand they understand what's going on and what we try to do is when we're structuring our deals as we're trying to structure so that we have a minimum of about five percent annualized cash on cash and so we we temper that and we give them what if scenarios on what would happen if we something crazy went on and the interest rate on our loans went up to the the cats which is typically five and a half to five and three quarters for us and what that would do to their cash flow and I mean look at that and they say you know what I may not be getting the seven or eight percent that I'm I want but but it's still it's still is a good cash on cash return. I know what the worst case scenario is. I'm satisfied so our philosophy is is that our best investors are investors who have all the information that we have they. i understand their risks and then they make an educated decision on whether or not to invest okay now speaking of your your investors you mention your high net worth individuals <hes> do you work with any institutions anymore do you work with primarily early advisors and they're the ones who bring you these investors or do you work directly with the investor charlie we do it all so we have <hes> we have a done even in the last year several <hes> j._v. <hes> acquisition in which <hes> we joint ventured with an institution so we are still doing some of those acquisitions the majority of our acquisitions right now <hes> are in a tendency in common seattle and with that model we are able to take ten thirty one exchange dollars and so we we will we will be contacted directly by <hes> investors who are in exchanges we also have a very large data the base of our own investors but then we do have <hes> were contacted constantly by wealth management firms who would like to place some of their investors in what is what is considered now alternative investment which is real estate and and so we from from wealth managers and wealth management firms and family offices i would say any one of our acquisitions has a from one to four million dollars from wealth management firms such as that okay so let's change the subject you just a little bit here <hes> carlin <hes> what's the best advice you've ever heard read or received about investing no the operator and so it somebody could could buy i or or see an extraordinary piece of real estate you let's say in boulder colorado and that that extraordinary piece of real estate if it is not operated well that extraordinary a piece of real estate is very probably going to have <hes> a tenant base that that <hes> declines the quality the asset could decline and so what somebody told me was you know in commercial real estate you've got up no operations and i'm like i'm an operations person i can do this but it's it's also it's also understanding that that multifamily in particular this is an operating business the there's there's income there's expenses there's there's a physical asset and so knowing the operator becomes a critical part of the decision to invest so that you know that i don't care if you're putting in twenty five thousand or twenty five million you know that that asset is being <hes> taken care of that's great advice especially for for real estate for other assets of it's a mutual fund it's a little bit different but certainly for real estate no question about it <hes> i can recognize the value the value of that so so let's move on a little bit here as we mentioned before you've been the director of the linquist center for entrepreneurship at the university of oregon and wile there you taught marketing entrepreneurship <hes> just briefly tell us about that whole thing we well it's that was you know mid nineties <hes> and <hes> back in the nineties if you can recall colin in and investors listening to this podcast if you can recall there were there was a shift and it is in in just how people were thinking it was it was moving into the whole telecom <hes> age where this dot com thing was wow look at this dot com thing and somebody could somebody could have a one page business plan that said <hes> paper dot com and with just a high falutin you know if you do if you if you if you have people dot com you are going to be a tech millionaire and people bought into it and they believed in it but it was it was that kind of <hes> frothy in the you know up until you know ninety late nineties was kinda frothy back then but what was going on in the in the universities at that time was the understanding that universities and business schools were were not keeping up with the times they were just doing research you know the big universities versus were doing research they were looking at you know <hes> you know we're going to do statistics and we're going to do marketing we're going to do this we're going to do that but the market was going to go pass them and the client which is a student was going to go pass them unless they really matched matched universities with what's really going on in the world and so it wasn't just a university of oregon a number of universities recognized the need to go into entrepreneurship and understand that and so i was is <hes> at the director of the center we had gotten from one of our <hes> Of Oregon in the business school on the map <hes> the students have done extraordinary things <hes> in nationally and internationally and it was a perfect example of how a university <hes> can look outside. It's wall and see how how do we serve our students better by certain communities and that's what they did great. I loved it well. That's great and congratulations to you and others involved in that and <hes> you know we no longer have the dot com phase what we have now is the blockchain phase and so that's how companies agrees value as they put blockchain in their name right and that creates <hes> value and opportunity for many of them here right and you know that is one of the reasons I I love real estate is that it is it is it is finite. You can't make more of it you can't I mean this is birth. The here's what we have and it's taking that piece of dirt and how was it developed and so on and so forth but at the end of the day it in what we do with multifamily it's a community it is in your apartment building as a community but that community sits within another community and it and it's critical and so we value add and this is how are investors think is well. We may buy a building and <hes> well. Let me give you an example we have. We purchased a building in Tacoma in in <hes> mid twenty fourteen. This was a fourteen it was it's a higher it was a high rise. It was partially even shuttered so <hes> floors were were shuttered off. <hes> it had not been renovated in years <hes> it was it overlooked commencement bay but you couldn't see it because it was literally shuttered and that area of the stadium district you wouldn't recognize the Party today but in the stadium district was was really grungy. PEOPLE DIDN'T WANNA walk there at night and what we saw is in two thousand thirteen. We saw that you know something. Something crazy is starting to happen in Seattle. We don't exactly know what but there's stuff going on in Seattle and at some point people are going to be pushed south and we looked at this building and we said <hes> this is really really rough and it's it it's an eyesore in this entire neighborhood and we did the numbers and we were able to purchase it at a very good price and we spent I don't know thirty five forty thousand dollars a unit on that building living and it we did it from the inside out but changing that building and changed the neighborhood and created a incredible community within the building but also did was it also it also improved the community outside of that building and and that's how we that's how we think of of multifamily is that yes. It's a it's a means for growing capital one hundred percent absolutely but one of the important things is is that when you improve building you one hundred percent of the time improve the neighborhood and that that's very very important to us you know congratulations <hes> the those are excellent excellent points and I think of how many people have benefited by you guys going in and renovating and improving one particular building here so <hes> question Carlin. We like to ask all of our guests. What book on investing would you recommend for listeners <hes> I hope I hope I don't feel less learned than some of your other other subjects here? I read all the journals because again. It's that whole community thing. multifamily is only as good as if you understand the dynamics within a community so I read all the journals whether it's <hes> whether it's Globe Street or Rental Housing Journal or co Star or Kiplinger or the business journal's in in every one of our communities. I WanNa know what's going on in the community. I I need to know what's going on. <hes> legislature legislatively what's going on with with neighborhoods what's going on with jobs. I read all of those so when I actually read a book it tends to be a murder mystery or <hes> the the one that I just finished with Michelle Obama's becoming book <hes> I want to read about figures <hes> before that I read the Cleopatra Book by the biographer Stacey Shifts so it was it's about the biographies in particular. How is how does a person <hes> change whether it's a nation or it's a community or themselves and make it better for other people so <hes> when it comes to investing I'm reading all the journals when it comes to gosh criminal you sitting next to the river and and you were reading a book intensely if you should a biography or murder mystery and sometimes those things are the same a yeah they can't be but I've got congratulations? That's right. We can't <hes>. We can't be singularly focused here. We need to be <hes> complete individuals and doing other kinds of reading are very very helpful. I say that although I don't practice it very well but no question about it and and staying up with what's going on industry and tangent issues with those industries very very important here no question about it so for those who would like to know more about i._M._G.. <hes> tell us <hes> where they can go so you can visit our website. Please and that would be W._W._W.. I am G. R. E. DOT COM so <hes> at at our website. You'll you'll get lots of stuff about us as as well as if we have a recent offering <hes> you can always call me to <hes> my email. My phone is nine seven one eight eight eight four zero one zero extension one zero a four and the our website. You can always get my email address and I would love to hear from anyone whether it's questions or comments that would be a wonderful thing and trump. If I can see one other thing please the so folks folks will ask me what my strategy is you know. How did you get from here to here and what I what I tell everyone is this you need to start to day? Don't wait for something else or you want to buy this or you WanNa do that. You have to start today and so whether it's that the way you start today 'cause maybe you only have <hes> you know two thousand dollars in the bank so maybe today starting is that you are putting one hundred dollars a a week in an account that you can't touch or two thousand dollars a week in account in an account you can't touch but you have to start today and every investor I work with that has absolutely bender strategy. I start art today and if you do that and you turn back <hes> twenty years later what you're gonNA find is by starting today twenty years from now you will have doubled or or quadruple Germany and let me Charlie do one more one more minute to tell one of the story not a problem Carlin okay. You're all okay excellent there because this one is very salient for justice moment and I thought about it. We have an investor who <hes> <hes> put a hundred thousand dollars in a building and this was about two thousand and three and and held that building a little building held that building because you know the market completely collapses in two thousand and nine and it starts are digging itself out and cells that building in two thousand thirteen and so started with one hundred thousand never had any cash flow in the hold in in two thousand thirteen so ten years later with three hundred thousand does it ten thirty one exchange change and then and then in ten in twenty thirteen puts that three hundred thousand in a in a twenty four unit in Portland Oregon and this particular investor is sweat sweat equity kind of guy he doesn't take any cash flow puts all all of it back into the building because the building's pretty rough neighborhoods rough and he kind of believes my community <hes> philosophy roles are the roles in rules that and now you know he's mid sixties and he's like I'm tired. I don't WanNa do this anymore. I want to sell this building building which he which he's prepped to do this is going to sell soon so when it sells he's going to have net equity of no less than two million dollars so what he would tell you. Is that what it took him a long time mind to save up that money for his first investment and it was one hundred thousand yes but a hundred thousand you know what fifteen years later is two million dollars and it hurt to get that hundred thousand together to continue to roll all and he's done the sweat equity for fifteen years but now he's got two million. He'll probably put it into what one of my syndication and now he can sit back and he can get the fruits of his Labor but is because at some point he started and that that is the philosophy that I want. I can impart anyone anything to <hes> listeners. Today is start today. Excellent point here especially focused on real estate no question about it. It doesn't happen overnight but <hes> that's an excellent example of the kind of thing that can happen so <hes> for our listeners here Carlin final words words the start today today Okay and thank you for your time. Hey Hey thank you very much judge for being with us. Carlin we appreciate our best wishes to you and I M G for continued success so again. We've been talking with Carlin Conklin Executive Vice President and principal at I._M._G.. The Investment Management Group you've been listening to strategic investor radio on talk radio. You can go to our website to hear podcasts of all of our interviews and shows strategic investor radio DOT COM. I'm Charlie Right which you and enjoyable week and productive investing costing strategic investor radio production of talk radio provided for educational purposes only content of this program and the guest should not be considered as recommendations.
Introducing Cyber Space with John Carlin
"Hey folks pred- here a few weeks ago we brought you a special episode of New podcast restarting for members of Cafe Insider, it's called cyberspace and it's hosted by my friend, a renowned cyber national security expert John Carlin. Today I'm excited to announce the official launch of the podcast John led the Justice Department's National Security Division under President Obama and prior to that served as chief of staff to then FBI Director Robert Muller. Every other Friday he'll be exploring issues at the intersection of Technology, policy and law but some of the most thoughtful and influential leaders who've made an impact in the world of cyber. What follows now is my conversation with John He joined me to preview his podcast and give us a broad outline of the cyber threat and the challenges created by ever evolving technology. And if you'd like to listen to the first episode of cyberspace featuring, John's interview with Alex. Stamos you can do. So for Free State Service, the chief security officer at facebook during a crucial time leading the company's investigation into Russia's manipulation of the two thousand sixteen election to listen for free head to cafe dot com slash cyber, and we'll send you a link that's cafe dot com slash cyber, and now here's my conversation with Giancarlo. Giancarlo. Welcome back to the show. Yeah. It's great to be back. So we had you on about a year and a half ago not much has happened since then I think no, it's pretty much the same over static country. In every respect. But one reason we have John was to talk about your book of the Code War. Working in the second book are you know I think I might be one and done we'll see now you'll do others, but you're going to be doing this podcast. So I want to ask you why you've agreed to do this podcast I think it's very important. One theory I have is You saw that our friend and your predecessor at. Least Monica was doing a podcast and you some foam. Oh. Never discount envy but also your your persuasive guy. Pre. On a scale of one to ten what do you think the average person in the public's understanding of the threat of cyber and the danger of cyber and the issues relating to cyber are three, but you know complicate that answer a little bit. I think that there's a general sense of discomfort or fear about it. That's probably accurate and so maybe that'll that'll rank a lot higher. But then specifically about the different where we are right now, what bad guys have already done to us that I think is pretty low and that's not just for the average. Person grandma prisoner hanging out with at a bar that is also finding true it at some of the highest levels of Corporate America will what about lawmakers? Made this point a lot I was having this conversation with my daughter the other day about you know some hearings and you see both senators and members of the House not understanding the basics of technology and they're the ones making the laws about this. What if you say the average person's at three? Where would you say you have to name names? Where would you say the average lawmakers while to say? You know I've had a few I. Do this project for the Aspen. Institute on Cybersecurity and you've identified what we've identified as one of the top problems and some of the members of our group are sitting members of Congress and they have described it down near zero or a one which subways make sense if you think about the average age of a Senator House member in the speed with which technology. Has has changed one of big initiatives. One of the reasons a podcast is just. At at the heart of this, I think sometimes it's a translation issue we've suddenly were relying on technology and the people who understand it best speak a different language. You speak that they understand that don't speak policy, and then the policy folks don't speak. So a lot of the initiatives that we've tried to start teach trying to teach each other our respective languages. So on the podcast, are you going to speak policy technology geek or how about how about English we'RE GONNA GO WE'RE GONNA try to go with English. Translation. But we'll try to bring on guests you who range are first guest was really someone who's a policy expert in a sitting government official who had my prior job in Lisa's prior? Lisa. Monaco prior job as assistant general security. So He's sitting government official ends backgrounds more policy, but he's finding that the issues facing or right at the at the center of this technological change of this move to. Cyber. So have people like that. Who are real policy experts will also have You know Alex stamos is GonNa. Be An upcoming guest who is a former chief information security officer at both Yahoo, and then facebook can live through some of the most serious attacks by Russian, and other actors and he's really a technologist but someone is good at speaking in policy. So we're trying to bring in both voices. What do you think are the most important issues that are going to be a deal in the news and in people's lives in the coming months and years tell you one that we'd predicted when I think I was last on with you. So we a year and a half ago despite everything changing the threats haven't changed its the magnitude has increased. We saw five years ago at this point, the Syrian Electric Army. So Group of of individuals associated with the Syrian state who supported the Assad regime and they did, what is still I think is the single most damaging just in terms of dollars attack and it was simple and easy to do. They took over the twitter account of the Associated Press to pretend. That there was a attack in the Obama White House, and they watched the stock market plunged billions and billions of dollars. So we talked about that Dan as something to worry about heading into the election as it seems like we're more not less reliant on getting information through twitter recently, when numerous public personalities twitter accounts were taken over and luckily in that case. It was a relatively low rent, bad guy scheme or what they they're trying to do is convince people to give them Bitcoin you not to gain digital currency but that same scheme if you did that right before election in the news media fell Fort, you would have people wondering about the legitimacy of the election. So one issue I think is going to be. How do we get news? How do we get information in how can be manipulated in this age? What we do to protect ourselves? There's one thing we've learned repeatedly in this space is that everyone is watching. So even if the intent of this particular actor really was a lawrence game to make a buck. When people see how easily it worked and use their imaginations? Actors, with much more in the first in ten terrorists nation states. Are taking notes and we need to prepare ourselves for more sophisticated use and we've seen we've learned that lesson time and again the hard way I hope learn it this time in protect ourselves before we see the worst use. To who needs who needs protection the most who's who's farther behind and others? To make sure at least with respect to an election. You don't have some bad event will one education effort I know we've been doing is with the news media and reporters so that they learn to take you know take a breath on in terms of reporting out what they get through twitter in the possibility of being manipulated and not just twitter which were but other social media as well. But in addition to that I think it's something that state election officials need to plan for in Homeland Security needs to plan for. So what if the threat that we face during the election is not a disruption of actual vote count or white people from the registration both things that we can and should worry about but instead it's just manipulating media to tell people to. Misinformation about how to vote for instance. So I think this is state local officials, reporters, and federal officials need to be quite aware of the way bad guys could could manipulate is interference with the election year topmost concern at the moment. It's it's hard in this space to pick a top because there's lack 'cause. I'm so many, doomsday scenarios. Nail flow from the same fundamental change right which is we moved almost everything we value from books and papers from analog to digital over very short period of time we did it further and faster than any other country in the world. So that goes to our water supply our electric grid. The way we get our news media everything. Now that is you know I, I'm looking at with. occurring everyone's working from home you can't work with if your systems get disrupted in were does that increase? How much has covid increased our risk I'm seeing it. So in my in my practice now helping companies who are victim of cyber attacks. I'm seeing an increase in ransomware in particular. So these are schemes that. encrypt they lock up your computers you can't use them unless you pay the bad guy, a fee and the bad guys have realized is that in an age of Covid people are GonNa pay because even a minor disruption in no matter what businesses on everyone's working from home right now and dependent on being able to use their networks in system. Making and again. Going back to earlier example, those are group's who you can pay by enlarge because what they're trying to do is to make a buck but if you think about that type of vulnerability on scale, if someone really wanted to deliver a shock to the American economy at a time, we're already dealing with a lot of shocks. You see that with the prevalence ransomware attacks have bad guide locked up the systems and there's no amount that you could pay can really cause damage the I'm GonNa talk about your background a little bit. You've had a lot of different jobs dislike Lisa Monaco and Ken Wayne but I want ask you your your interest in and focus on cyber how that evolved overtime. So. How. Much different is your view? And your attention to cyber comparatively between the time you serve, for example, as Chief of staff to Robert Muller than FBI. Director. And say your last year in government in the Obama Administration. Yeah. So so prior to serving a muller as chief of staff when he was. Back in the good old days when he was relatively anonymous director of the FBI. I had coordinated nationally the computer hacking intellectual property criminal cases. So, I become a Summer of specialists in this area in when I win. Chips. Chips. He's responsible for that name think utility before because he you know he doesn't watch TV had no idea that they were a bunch of responsible Robert Muller Robert Muller yet store when he was the US attorney. In California, he started the first chips unit there to deal with high tech crime, they named the computer hacking and intellectual property section. It was just a section in that one. US Attorney's office, and then he brought the name with him when he came back. The name. Yeah we'll you know about the. Sunglasses. TV Show Yeah. Reminded many of our listeners don't know what the hell you're talking about you. Chips tortilla chips. Credit. Just. California highway patrol big being camps with this show. Yeah. Look I I know you watch religiously. I watched the show. I wasn't allowed to watch TV, but it was one of the shows I snuck and they just did a remake that was is really a terrible movie. I got to say but it. So maybe it's more people hurt because of the remake no negative we don't do negative. Negative promotions. Here. So, yeah so much between then and and recently. How much bigger of a deal has become I think what it is. It's a lot of what we foretold has now come. Come to pass. So for a while, you know everyone was. Saying it's a matter of time before nation state attack seat the United States through cyber means. Now we've had things like the North Korean attack on Sony motion pictures going back to your don't give negative views because they they're essentially giving a negative review to a movie didn't like the interview you've had Russia. We talked about the fact that there was the possibility of Medellin election but now we've seen it happen and on scale and not just once we saw them attempt to do the same thing in. The two thousand eighteen election's, and we know they're trying to do it again, we've seen China steal intellectual property on scope and scale that simply unimagined in history that former director of the National Security Agency. Called the largest transfer of wealth in human history Keith Alexander I think he's right and we've seen that affect the world's geopolitics. So I think what we're seeing a lot of what had been predicted has already come true and unfortunately since then there has been increased investment in security new positions created new. The government has changed in new policies. But at the same time, we've also doubled down on increasing our reliance on the technology without fixing the underlying vulnerabilities. So I'm not sure we were more safe than we were before. You know that that quote from Alexander is also invoke regularly when I was in office the greatest transfer. Of Wealth and human history but a lot a lot of that wealth. Is being transferred wear to China right based on theft property. So I WANNA ask you about China for a second I was recently. Talking to some folks who said something that made my hair stand on end and it was. The question of what is going to happen with the relationship between the United States and China and how big a threat China is much more so than Russia. And the question was are we inevitably headed towards? Armed Conflict with China military conflict with China and the consensus was no not in the conventional sense that seems unlikely. But if you're including cyber and whatever cyber means they thought, there was a very high likelihood that inevitability do that, and what would that look like I agree with it but I do think it's something that's that we can positively impact in. It's a good reason to to talk about now in so. It's in part of that is I think China in the US have a vested interest in having some norms some rules of the road on how you use these weapons that are incredibly powerful. And in order to set those rules of the road, you need to create clear norms like things that are okay and are not what are the red lines make sure that there's not confusion and then make sure that your deterrence is credible. So with China right now has great capability to disrupt inside the US and we have a great ability to disrupt their systems. As well, I think what? What's keeping it more in the in the realm of espionage and? Trade secret theft rather than actually disrupting systems that we rely on. Is Deterrence understanding of where red lines one of the concerted efforts you saw the Obama Administration that I think has fallen off somewhat not because they're great cases being brought by the law enforcement and intelligence professionals, but there hasn't been consistency at the top. In terms of the messaging to China on what's most important. But one of the changes you saw the attempt to make administration is to say, Hey, trade secret theft when you're targeting private companies were putting as as a norm where saying that is one of our our red lines that he can't use your cyber capability. Instead of you don't investing in research and development to steal intellectual property, and then we did see a change of behavior when that breakthrough occurred with President Obama in president she was it was somewhat remarkable I. Think we've fallen off a little bit because it's so conflicted with all the other us. China trade issues that there's not a clear message on you know what's different from trade in really a national security issue putting China side. Would have some other countries that you think are dangerous in the sphere that you'll be talking about on the pod yet top four are China. We've talked about Russia north, Korea and Iran, and that's been fairly consistent in terms of the assessment of the intelligence community for nearly a decade now. I discussed this once at a panel. where I think I was moderating. and. At the same conference I don't think we're on a panel together and I remember asking someone who not long after the Sony Hack. Those perpetrated by the government of North Korea. Should we be surprised that north? Korea is in the top four given that as I, understand it. They have all the processing power in that country I'm exaggerating but all the processing power of my laptop. Isn't it is it otherwise? Digitally. Very behind the country. Now I think that's that's fair in it's one thing when when North Korea did do the attack for instance on Sony Motion Pictures, some people said, why tack them back through Cyber Means and It always. Think that the maximum you WANNA. Attack Your your enemy where you are strong in they are weak and that time the we were very digitally reliant but you could knock all of North Korea offline and they had fewer I ip or Internet Protocol addresses than average company does so wouldn't mean much to knock them all off line to your bright so being. A, little bit behind digitally is in some ways to measure of protection currently. That's right. In, there also So the way that they're conducting most of their tax are not from folks inside of North Korea, what they're doing a they do with their schemes to get a developed a weapons of mass destruction, they have a network of. Agents outside of North Korea and the US infrastructure ill broadband in computers outside of North Korea to conduct their tax, and it is a major part of their national security strategy right now because when you look at our policy, which is to try to deprive currency from the regime in order to change policy through sanctions. With decided is okay. Will they try to deprive legitimate banking? We are going to become the world's largest bank robber and use our cyber capability to do things like wire transfer schemes where a bank thinks it's transferring to one place, but they changed the currency and we see North Korea doing that all the time. Now they also do the ransomware type scheme we discussed before until they're extorting companies to get payment and they're really it's it's not tied to any particular political goal. They're just doing it to raise money with the Sony Hack. Case. That you mentioned perpetrated by North Korea was at the most interesting case you worked on when you're in government in this area. Sadly for I'd say there's a couple in each country has a as a case that found particularly interesting of the of the four we discussed so. You have that that North Korean attack on Sony and then you have the Russian blended threat attack on Yahoo where they took a guy who's a crook like a legit crook in so no nation state. Motive on his part and he would do things like hack in change the Yahoo. Search engine sound. When you search for anything, you got redirected to erectile dysfunction site. And then was. Not a national security emergency. Yeah. And he'd take take a buck but then you saw Russian operatives in it. It was the same unit that we relied upon for cooperation with. Russia. So he was one of our most wanted criminals we went through the FBI to say, Hey, can you help us arrest them just like we've cooperated another cases like porno terrorism this has nothing to do with national security and instead of helping us arrest him, they signed him. Up as an intelligence asset and then they used his same type of crazy criminal schemes allowed him to make a buck on them but while he had access in stole things like literally hundreds of millions of email addresses in order to do math spam scheme, they use that same information for intelligence purposes for things like surveillance before Ukraine. So that was that was a fascinating case as well, and then there was an Iranian attack. On our financial sector where they essential I remember that guess. Yeah. That's We we worked on that. Exactly. And then, and you remember the in addition to the attack on the financial sector, which essentially they made. Hundreds of thousands of compromised computers into a cyber weapons of mass destruction. They also hacked the Bowman Dam, right? New? York. I don't know if we've ever talked about what's your theory as to why they hit the moment damn. I don't have one other than it seemed like it was an easier thing to do it. May We're trying their hand I mean I don't mean to be a sort of dry run theorists like we talked about at the beginning with the twitter hack but you know I, think people if you're if you're a general criminal, you're going through neighborhood in your engaging kind of crime. Robbing People's houses if there's a car in the driveway, maybe I should think about that and you can take a shot. I don't know what you think. Yeah. I've had I've had that whether a theory of vacillates dry run just to fill people in who aren't tracking on it. So this was part of the same Iranian group that attacked our financial sector to to try to knock online banking offline so as a Consumer you couldn't reach your bank. They also hacked into this damn in in Westchester in New York and the access this lose control system. So they'd be able to open and shut the dam and flood this surrounding area now as it so happens the them was down for maintenance wasn't working but I think, I remember Prima agreeing at the time that are crumbling infrastructure should not be our first line of of cyber defense. But it's it's not the biggest. Damn. So there is a lot of questions. About why would they hit that particular damn. Now, I've always one theory is that there was a there is another bowman dam that is of significance is because they don't know America very well, and they're operating offshore that they hit the wrong bowman dam, but I'd. Never fully had an answer as to why they wanted control their. Final question before you go who's GonNa play you in the movie. The. Thing about okay. Going back to the problem clearly clearly thought about this, you have an answer. But the plea clearly the. Although I will say my. Nickname growing up for awhile was Ferris because of a movie that your listeners also probably that familiar with anymore fails spillers day off and Matthew Broderick was as big. Hacker. Guy. Names at the time. AND INFLUENCED RHINO Back, from nineteen, eighty three. Hello You still, plane king. Of calls I should reach gift gun lung and Launch Tonight missiles in twenty eight hours. Would you like to see some projected kill ratios? Sixteen nine percent of the housing destroyed. Seventy two million people dead. This. Game. Or is it real? What's the difference. That was one of the. It's a big moment for cyber. Policy. Historians because and cyber fiction. Ronald Reagan seeing that movie asked his team. Hey, could this happen in the answer turned out to be yes and it was the first big initiative on cyber son of that. But that was when they house. Yeah. Drove it. So fiction can make a difference. But that's a nice note ended because that's a kind kind of thing. That you're going to be talking about on the cyberspace podcast. I'm very excited about this. John. I think for a long time there's a lot of confusion and there are a lot of myths around. Cyber Threat and a lot of people think you know it seems to complicate it. It's something for the it people to care about and I don't really understand it and that's just not true. A lot of common sense. Things that ordinary people can learn about it and people who need to be able to protect their companies in their homes and their livelihood in their bank accounts. So I consider what you're about to do to be real great public service. So so thanks for doing I'm glad we're working together again really looking forward to the opportunity. Thanks. I. Hope my conversation. John Carlin has piqued your interest in the fascinating world of cyber as mentioned for the First Episode of Cyberspace John. SPEAKS WITH ALEX stamos prior to serving as facebook. Officer during Russia's assault on our democracy, same held that role at Yahoo when the company experienced a series of cyber attacks from nation states resulting the breach of some billion user accounts. Most is now helping zoom with its cyber security challenges exacerbated by the company's exponential growth during the pandemic it's compelling discussion and I hope you'll check it out. You can do so for free by heading to cafe dot com slash. To sign up and we'll send you a link to listen again. That's cafe dot com slash cyber.
Moment of the Day (11/02/20)
"Are you registered to vote. Find out how at four one one dot org. Don't miss the deadline. Every state is different. Plan to vote on november third or by your states deadline. You're voting by mail. Vote make it count. Go to vote four one one dot org join what we just did that. Having been said earlier g was talking about his mother-in-law. She's a steeler fan. She's getting kinda cocky. They're seven and yada yada yada. Then later we played carlin's call of that crazy touchdown from rutgers saturday at all kind of ties in here data. Show here we know. What does this adnan a pretty good man. And i really thought it should have stood. I did not see at forward pass. It was clear it was it. Yes i didn't think it will all right. I watch the broadcast. I watched the seventh ladder. Seven th was it the angle that you saw one guy was g- was on the ground but he actually wasn't rat show one went forward Okay all right. That's just let it stand and we're gonna win the game anyway. One of the greatest plays ever was pretty funny off. Sounds like mother-in-law. Yeah there you go guys great monday. I very good jerry. Thank you boomer. And gio coming alive from the built ford tough studios on the fan and cbs sports network.
4-17-20 Sandler Show Nicole Sandler Show - Ali Velshi, Kelly Carlin and Me
"The following program contains graphic material including offensive language. Your this question is advised. Nicole's Joe Questioning Authority daily. That could be the very reason why. Youtube is upset. Hey you do the music. Venue here beneath my voice is from a broadcast. Sound Library that I pay for and in Ham the receipt so I bet your copy right violation right here and now. Here's Nicole like that. Welcome to a Friday. Hi I'm so proud of us because we have made it to the end of another week. Most of US anyway and we are you know and this week was very similar to the week before which was very similar to the week before. Except when we see the numbers going up and we see the mad man at his you know to our commandeered infomercials. I don't know trying to rush things along while the the scientists are saying. Hold up buddy you know. Hold your horses as my mom used to say? We don't want to rush into anything because you open things up and we get a second wave. It's going to worse than the first so who knows what's going on. I think right now. What we need to do is take hold of. What's in our minds in our hearts and our souls and make sure where taken care of One of the casualties in this quarantine I really believe is not going to be evident for quite some time. And the casualty I'm talking about is our peace of mind We all to varying degrees struggle with some kind of mental health issues with me. It's depression has been for years with some people at the end. Zaidi some people you know. Everybody's got got our own ships and when we're stuck in a high stress situation the way we all. Are we all deal with it differently? One of the problems among many in our healthcare system is the lack of availability for good psychological help now thankfully the affordable care act made it so that mental health care was included in every insurance policy but since trump opened the door to these junk policies again you could be paying for insurance without those protections and not have no coverage or he could be like my kid. Who's you know? She turns twenty one in three weeks. Oh my God and this year bought her policy on the exchange which is way too expensive for what she gets high high deductible and copay and then premium cheap either and this is a kid a twenty year old with no medical problems but she wants to go see a therapist her copay per visit sixty five dollars. That's not affordable and that's just one of the major issues that we are going to need to deal with if and when we come out of this on the other side all right. I'm going to do things a little different today because we are so jam packed that I don't have time for a funny. I mean I guess I could but it means we'd be hitting Kelly Carlin a little later. Here's what we'll do perhaps at the end of this show We'll we'll we'll do an overtime progressive voices. Listeners won't get it but the podcast people will and people listening live. Well so we'll save the funny and the What's news for the end of the show? Today mobile fit it all in. We'll just run a little bit of over time If you listen to progress voices at five you'll get you'll get the meat of the program and the meat As I've been promoting for the week Kelly Carlin is GonNa join us at the tail end to do sort of a guided meditation. This is what she does. I mean she's got a issue was raised by her dad. George Carlin so she got the the comedy the sense of humor the irreverence. The you know the stuff that makes her like one of us and But she also studied for years and got her masters in Youngin psychology and takes very seriously and she does coaching sessions and she does seminars via zoom. We'll talk about all that but she's going to give her special assignment for today because we're all in this together so she's GonNa lead us on a guided meditation that hopefully you can use again and again. It's not just one time deal. Thankfully my show is not behind a paywall so you can share it. You can get it on Youtube. You can get it on the podcast however whatever works for you. Whatever floats your boat. Go for it but we're GONNA start with an interview that actually recorded a couple hours ago and we were recorded it mostly for logistic sake because alley they'll she and others at MSNBC and other news organizations are working pretty screwy Hours these days so he never knows when he's going to be on call there you know. Everything's all messed up so we figured we had a good chunk of time today at around noon so he hopped on skype from his home and I hopped on it from my home studio and we recorded this interview and the way it came about was just a little bit. I'm such a bitch sometimes on social media and I called out Allie for something and have long been a fan of his. I really do appreciate his work. And I think he's one of a very small handful of people at Msnbc who I truly truly respect and enjoy watching and listening to so. I felt badly when I sort of had a little tussle with him on twitter but He handled a beautifully and we became buds and we exchanged emails and I invited him on the show and well. Here's how it went joining me on the line. Now is Allie vel. She he somebody that well. We welcome into our homes all the time. I've become a big fan of Allie Bell. She's in fact. I started really following you. Allie when you joined Al Jazeera America because I was excited that for the first time in in in this era we had news channel. That was about news. It wasn't about one ideology over another the goal. There was to present news in an objective. Manner wasn't it. Yeah it was two goals. One is news in the absence of You know what we used to think of as news Being as objective as possible and we can discuss. What objectivity is because? I think we've learned over time that maybe it's not exactly what we think it is but that was one of the goals and the other goal that I thought was really important. I've been a journalist. Probably Twenty some odd years before I joined. Al Jazeera and we were really concentrated on telling stories from the perspective of the voiceless being voice for the voiceless and it occurred to me out while I had always thought about those things and I thought I was reporting about those things my life as journalist in New York City working for mainstream media. Don't expose mito whole lot of voiceless people as we go out of our way to find them. Even our most junior employees at a media organization are powerful right because they can call up anybody and tell them they're from the media So so I really. It caused me to get outside of a zone in which I had been operating. It wasn't a shift in ideology for me or the way I think about things but it really caused me to say. How do you tell stories from the perspective of the very people who don't have the voice whom you talk about whom analyze whom you characterize all the time and I have to say to call? That was a bigger challenge than I. A guy like me thought it was going to be I. I thought this was obvious right. I know who these voiceless people are. I know what their challenges are. What their lives are why didn't and and and it changed my perspective. It was. It was a remarkable experience for me for that reason and then has fortunately unfortunately. Is these things happen? Aljazeera didn't catch on here. I think it was more of a because I enjoyed watching them. I like the objectivity. I'm always looking for it because it helps me. Organize my thoughts so I can be more objective about what I cover and I'm deb. My show is not objective. News coverage it's opinion and commentary but always based in fact. That's gotta be the underlying basis otherwise it's worthless so I was. I was bummed when it went away and I wonder how much of that was Xenophobia was the fact that Al Jazeera was in Arabic network that was based in Qatar. Or an was that a big part of it. You know the other day somebody Tweeted me something that was meant to be criticism and said you know how that Aljazeera thing working for you and I I said Oh like did you watch it. They said no I never did. It was biased. So you've never watched anything on Al Jazeera America and he said no and I said would you mind looking for me and let me know what you thought was biased about that and that was the problem those people who watched even if they had political bias we had people watching us who were conservative or liberal but they felt that they could get the news And and those people who never did never didn't think so and part of that was that logo which was remarkable Arabic calligraphy. It was it was a competition. Somebody won many years ago to design the eldest logo which to the untrained eye including mine. Looks a whole lot lake Isis Lung? We don't we are not familiar with Arabic. Were certainly not familiar with Arabic calligraphy. And we're not familiar with Arabic anything right. In North American society there is car there is no chewing gum. There is no Soft drink Arabic to Americans for the last twenty. Five years has generally speaking associated with bad things. Terrorism al-Qaeda stuff like that and that was very difficult to overcome So I think that was a lot of. It's I don't think that people watched it an object to do it. I think the people who watch it actually came around to the idea. That was pretty good. We there are some people who would just never watch azan barriers would never carry. Yeah it's it's the it's the inbred bigotry. It's that institutional racism now you Allie vel. She have made no secret of your background. Your kenyan-born Muslim who grew up in Canada is now living and working here in the states and I'm guessing that you've gotten both you know. Kudos for that and some criticism because people are like that comes up every Every few weeks somebody will tweeted A as if it's criticism and like it's at my twitter bio I was actually just annoyed because for a long time. I was the most famous kenyan-born Muslim I knew until op showed up on the scene. I say tongue in cheek. I'm actually that guy. And he was never at any of the meetings so so yeah to me. I did grow up in a world. In which varied experience and diversity is of value and that can be from anywhere that could be economic where you are where you're from what you speak color. You are what gender you are what you identify with? So I've never ever ever thought of that as a negative right to me the list of stuff you are and let people make with it. A make what they will of it today The concept of being foreign immigrant Muslim Global Global in perspective Canada's some people associated with socialist. It's it's fascinating the People will quickly put you into I. I'm not actually that complex of being sorted out there to say. Hey this is this is if you wonder where my thinking comes from. If you wonder why I support single payer You know healthcare. It's not actually a Bernie Sanders thing me. It's system in which I grew up. It's a system that I studied and it seems to work that it happened to align of a few minutes with Bernie Sanders campaign is interesting. But that's not where it came from with me so I put it out there to say whatever you think. I think because I'm kenyan-born Muslim and grew up in Canada. You probably right or not. Because you're a human being and you're here and you I for me first and foremost as of you're in a power consumer of news media you're one of the best now I know we met Virtually through twitter sometime ago when one morning I was in a pissy mood and I probably hadn't had enough coffee USA. I'm a big Bernie Sanders supporter for some of the reasons. You already mentioned that single payer and just his consistency over the years and one morning and it was maybe only your second week and the new slot and the Nouvelle she show which is the now on Saturdays and Sundays from eight to ten eastern morning. I'm one of those old people who doesn't sleep and wake up early in the morning so I see it all the time. Anyway I called you out in a in a pissy moment and you were so wonderful and the way you responded to me and you really engaged with me. Some of your colleagues Have blocked me over the years and rightly so probably I block some of them. But I was so thrilled to have this conversation with you and it just it. It verified my belief in that. You're you know you're good guy or decent human being and you're smart and that's one of the reasons I enjoy watching you because you do give a very well rounded view of the whatever store you're talking about you give background and you do it without much personal Commentary and invoked. Although I don't not that there's anything wrong with that. I do it on a daily basis but you you give us the facts and especially at a time like this. That is so important. And that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. Today is how life reporting on. The News has changed when we're living the biggest news story. Any of us has ever even imagined you know the idea of pandemic was always out there and and obviously the administration had been briefed on it to not that they took it seriously but we as a people as a planet have never lived anything. Lift through anything like this. How has it changed your world other than obviously in the mechanics we see in the coverage? And you're working from a bigger picture. How has it changed you well on fuel levels rebulk for your? I don't re- Recall our fight. I recall the resolution. I recall the fact that we decided to engage and an have conversation to me. That's the good part right. I find criticism We should often have it And by the way I think I was one of Bernie Sanders last interviews before stepped out of the ten. I thank you for that too by the way because I did. That did not go unnoticed and it was a great interview too. So thank you for a great interview. And I've always enjoyed a great relationship with the senator editorially and I. I like that so a lot of things have changed. I've covered a lot of the very big stories of our time. I covered the Covered nine eleven. I covered The recession I covered Various hurricanes earthquakes and wars this is so different nevermind the mechanics which fascinating right. I'm right on guesting for my home right now actually One of my colleagues Of Gopher is here adjusting some lighting and fixing some things but but the mechanics aside of anchoring the show there's that then there's the actual news gathering right in the idea that we we have to tell real people stories and that means going into places where real people are and and that this is a time when that's weird right people don't necessarily want you go into their homes We're not out there all the time. So this a skype zoom things like that have become much more valuable but remember that we as a network operate on the basis that we have contact our company's communications expert Regular folks don't have that stuff Social media twitter. The stories about people's lives have become crucial and important frontline workers. Right I get outside in Manhattan at seven. Pm Everyday and clap for those people out there. The the frontline workers including the grocery delivery people the doormen the nurses. But I don't talk to them. I don't interview them so we've had to find ways to do that and we do do that. We are talking to home. Health Care Aides and grocery store workers and people like that to tell us how what impact this has on them and I think that's a part of our The new way we think about things that is going to be good right wingman. Maybe we can tell a lot more story from the bottom up than we can. From the perspective of presidents and Princes and prime ministers down so that's one very good part about this but the other thing about it. That's fascinating is in the big stories that I've covered Even in nine eleven we thought it was existential. We thought it was going to be a massive threat to our way of life and ultimately it wasn't it wasn't going to destroy us and and in the recession we thought about all the ways in which it was going to damage our lives and our prosperity. But we weren't scared of the people around us. This is so new. You don't know where this threat lies and so your debt. Your brain can't get your head around who fixes this. How does it get fixed? This is signs this leadership this government and we don't know how to process that so we're doing it in real time and and you'll notice every single week on TV. Our behavior changes a little bit because the story has shifted isn't about fear. Is it about numbers? Is it about leadership about the economy. Is it about failures in government? Is it about Medical Science So these I. It's such a fast evolving story about things around which we don't have pre-established expertise right right and what I'm noticing also is. We're all being affected by this in ways that we probably won't even know for months and maybe in some cases years to come and I'm talking about mental health and I'm somebody I've been open about this on my show. I have always struggled with depression my entire adult life since adolescence and I had a really really rough time after Donald Trump's election where I had a whatnot. Why can look back now and describe it as as a breakdown I did my job I did show every day. Don't ask me how I got through it. I'm afraid if I were to go back and listen to some of those shows. I'd be mortified because I I got to the point where I had to write out every word I was. I was a nervous wreck. I'd I'd I questioned everything and I just. This is something I've been doing for forty years. I've been in radio and I just I would shake before I opened the Mike. It's so thoroughly destroyed me and I somehow got through. It came out on the other side. Maybe seeing all right. We're coming closer to an election time and maybe we can get rid of this man But it has really affected me and now you know just when we thought it couldn't get any worse really the nation as a planet. We're not going to go any lower. We get hit by this pandemic and so many of us are just. I'm a lung cancer. Survivor I and I'm sixty years old. I can't go out there. So it's it's it's changed every aspect of our lives and it's changed the way I do my show because no longer do I want to dig down deep on all the the numbers and the the news and the it's too much I want. We know right so I'm hitting on a more human level. I think I mentioned this to you in an email I start. I happened upon a facebook group called room view from my room that now in a short month has over a million members who people at every corner of the planet They take pictures of the view from their house. Say where they are. They're everywhere from Zimbabwe to South Africa to Australia New Zealand and and Bolivia and Brazil and all over the states. And I'm looking and I start reaching out to some of these people and connecting with them and I've invited them on the show so I'm doing this new segment called quarantine calling where I connected yesterday with a wonderful woman from Finland Somebody else in Denmark somebody in Italy and it just it's a small world in. We're all on this in a you. A unique moment in history when we're all experiencing basically basically the same thing and I'm having a hard time verbalizing what that is but just trying to connect with people those Kinda stories are what somehow make me feel a little better and it gives me away to to pass things along to listeners. Are you more interested in stuff like that or because we also need you to help explain about the p? Perleberg running out of money and why some of us haven't gotten her twelve hundred dollars yet and that is wh- still do and what we do. I had Segments on my shows that I have not had on my show in twenty years or thirty years of doing this I had a an expert on grief about the collective group we all feel not just the grief of those of us who have lost somebody to cove it but the the loss the feeling that we feel about the loss of normalcy in our lives actually feels like great And then there are those people who have lost somebody during this period not to krona virus. But they can't have a funeral or they can't be with them. They can't have a memorial service. I talked to somebody the other day. About what young. Lgbtq people go through right because let's say you had to leave school or or leave your work in quarantine in place with your family. Which wasn't safe space for you to start with. I talking about a people who are abused in their ships. Where do you go when you gotta be with someone and you can't run to the shelter and you don't have Places that are open to you so you know we would put thing we would give them tips as to what to do What do you do if you suffer from anxiety or all sufferers of anxiety? Now in appreciate weddings diety was when people you know when you said. Well it's not really rational. What your fear that. It's like guess what we're all. We're all irrationally beard. All if you're all the time update jockey openly about your depression because for people who are suffering from these things. This becomes that much more complicated. You don't have the same access to either therapist or medication or doctors that you typically have and when everybody else is anxious. How do you share those concerns with people and I feel like that is is immediate and In the center of this conversation and necessary we read a. We started running an ad on. Msnbc probably three weeks ago We have the series that's called. This is who we are and we changed it to. We're in this together. Oh it was just imagery of around the world and in America. The things people do to help other people in these times and Jacoby. I've invited people have a email address. My story BELGE DOT com. You just tell me how you coping good bad. Send me video. Send me pictures and we tell that story every show. I do a bit ury every show. You'll remember that these are real people's lives that lived and a might my producer. Emma writes it and she sent it to me and I read it and I. I always a smile because the stories are so good and then I always cry when I deliver them on TV. I I've read it already. I know what it's going to say and yet I can't keep it together so These are ways in which we have changed but I do agree with you. We have learned to find strength in each other. And that doesn't mean that you shouldn't argue on twitter or we couldn't have critical argument I think we should. Somebody said to me last night it up a Webinar. And they said do you think. We can put aside our political bickering as we lead into the election. to to deal with us and I said now I people died for our right to politically bicker You may call it bickering and sometimes it feels like bickering and sometimes it feels small and petty but it is actually central to who we are so for all. We hate about corona virus and being stuck in our homes. Think about those people in the world who don't also have an election coming up in which they can vote who don't have freedoms who live in refugee camp who have no money at all who live in abject poverty and can't do the things that we can do to social distance and keep clean all the time we have democracy and we have a vote and it's this is not the time to shy away from our adulthood and our and our democratic rights and our constitutional obligations for free speech so bicker and fix corona virus at the same time we can actually walk and Chew Gum at the same time. Most definitely the only but then there's the other aspect that we've steered clear of so far but it's the two hundred and thirty nine pound and then some elephant in the room by way of Donald Trump. Who If if you had if you knew that we were going to be struck with a global pandemic of these proportions this scary? Who was the last person you'd want in the White House? Donald trump and yet he goes up there. He commandeered to two and a half hours of prime television time every night I know. Msnbc's gotten a little better at pulling away from him and trying to fat. Check them in real time but to have him spout. Some of the crap he's spouting off is just so irresponsible and frightening and it's my husband. I watched it because I say I have to. It's my job. I need to know what he's saying and my husband can't be in the room he just he's GonNa. It's making him nuts. This is another aspect. I watched the way he'd be rates journalists. Just doing their job. And if you don't if you're not a complimentary of him if you don't your question with praise He'll call you. He'll call you the worst names that no adults should ever call anybody let alone the president of the states. I wonder on a daily basis. Why don't these people get up and walk out? And then I answer my question and I say because then all that would be left covering him is Fox and Oei N N and that's as much of a disservice covering stuff the two things I always think. Journalists have to do One is to bear. Witness right at something is happening and you think about the eighties on mounts in Johor. You'd think about Darfur war. You'd think about the Roe Hinga. If there weren't somebody to tell you it was happening. We actually would know because we'd all be on our feeds which we have cured ourselves and the story wouldn't get there so part of the reason we have to be in. That room is to bear witness Even if it's incredibly hard to watch We this is the president of the United States that was elected by American people and the consequence of having that president is is having that president and we have to say that but the other really important thing that you're getting at is the other responsibility to journalists have is to speak to power to hold power to account and there are some journalists in that room who on a daily basis by the way not like anchoring a show. Where you've you've booked your guests. You know they are done research. You had a booker look into them. You've got a segment producer. You've read their articles yet. No idea on a daily basis when Donald Trump is going to jail at his mind works very differently than than mine does so I give a little extra credence to those reporters in that room. Because he says stuff and then you have to decide my holding them to account for the thing that. I thought I was only account forty. He just say something really weird that I need to challenge or do I need to get information on what they know. So it's hard and there are some reporters my friend. Michelle Michel Sin from one of them who you know he just. He picks on her all the time. He belittles her all the time. He's got some beans bonded about her and she holds her patients and continues to add asked her questions and the other day when he gets past her because he didn't want to give it another question Couple reporters later a diamond from CNN. Took his opportunity gave her the Mike back yet. So there are. There are some moments of glory in in these things. But I I will. Somebody said something to me before Corona Virus When I was anchoring on Friday nights anger Lawrence O'Donnell show last word and she came on and she said this is this is. This is for grownups. This is not a time when you can say this person's going to come in and save me. That's now not going to happen. So you going to do the things you have to do. The most powerful of which remains your vote others of which remain keeping your family safe keeping yourself safe social distancing where necessary finding those around you who need resources who can help either figure out how to get their twelve hundred dollars to figure out how to file for unemployment or if they don't file unemployment what can you do to help those around you I've seen acts of kindness that I didn't know possible in the last couple of months. Just people saying do you need money. We need money. What you just said about a talking to people. Random people around the world people say. Call me if you need someone to talk to. Let's we're going to fix ourselves we're going to. We're going to take the mantle of leadership and I will say one thing. When Joe Biden launches campaign he talked about recapturing the soul of America and he talked about Charlottesville Alvar. We've come you know. He's changed his whole theme now and and He's talking about who is going to pick for his cabinet. Yeah if you think. Back to two thousand eight during the election during the financial crisis John McCain had been doing pretty well and then he picked Sarah Palin and his running as his running mate and Barack Obama lined up with all of Clinton's senior economic is nine and basically this. This is going to the team. That's going to help me out. And Joe Biden switch strategy to say. Look maybe you've got doubts about who I am or what my actual capabilities are. But I'm going to start to line up a team for you. So you know who is going to lead you out of that interesting theory. Given that America right now is so hungry for leadership so that I think. We're all pivoting enroll making adjustments to say you watch that. White House press briefing every day. Your solution and your leadership's not gonna come from there so find it where you can find it in yourself you can right well. Hopefully those of us waiting on the edges saying okay. Who Joe Biden? Assembles is of the utmost importance. If he goes back to the old well and brings in Larry Summers and Tim Geithner and the Same Old Clinton Obama crew. That's not going to do the trick. He needs to for a look. I've already said I've got. I've got my my industrial strength. Knows clubs from my lung cancer battle that I use for pulmonary testing. I use STA in two thousand sixteen to vote for Hillary Clinton and I'm planning to use it again to vote for Joe Biden but I wanNA know who that I want to know that he's talking with the Sanders Camp and the Warren Camp and that they're going to take our wants and considerations into effect I would love to see Joe Biden right now announce his running mate because he's no spring chicken. That person could likely be president. So that's an important consideration and I wanna know who else he's going to surround himself with and I just hope that he I wish he would use this time to bring in people and say these are the people I'm looking at. Do you think I mean all the rules are thrown out? Everything is going to have to change now. Is that a possibility. Yeah I I wonder. The running mate question is is a big one and I don't know whether he'll move quickly on that but I I think the way around that. If you weren't going to move quickly around this is to sort of say this is what the cabinet looks like. That's going to be weird. Because if all of a sudden there isn't a Comma Harris so there isn't it Elizabeth. Warren uh there. Isn't somebody like that. Does that mean does that. Just with the running mate conversation into overdrive to say well he's got such a not so I I don't know how he's thinking about that. I sort of agreed with you. Conceptually that it might be time for Joe Biden. Who now is is the the the presumptive nominee to just act like the redemptive dominating like we're in October not a not in in enable So and I think he's getting that message. I also think it sounds like from the conversations people have been having including with Bernie Sanders and with with with Elizabeth Warren and with Alexandria Cossio Cortes that the the the the Joe Biden campaign is taking that part of the message seriously look there are things about the Bernie Sanders campaign which were considered quite radical. If you years ago of that are now mainstream fifteen dollars an hour remind people is thirty thousand dollars a year so everybody who thinks that the socialist are taking over in the poor taking your money. It's thirty thousand dollars a year. Minimum wage is seven and a quarter. That's fifteen thousand dollars a year. There are I saw poll the other day that said thirty percent of people who identify as conservatives think that universal healthcare might be a good thing and argued for a long time actually shouldn't be a liberal or Conservative ideas. Actually a better idea that. Get you a better return on your investment. So when you take all of that together. I think that there are things that we thought that. Now people are saying you know what if we had to Brazil healthcare? We'd probably be in a better position today because there would be a whole bunch of people with underlying conditions Who who would seek treatment and who have chronic virus might not go to work because they could afford to be at home and make somebody else sick so I think the world has changed a lot in the last couple of months. I hope so. And what are the things my calling around the world I hope brings to light? I always ask the people in these other countries about their healthcare systems. And you know they're always they know what it is over here but when I mentioned the insurance card and it's tied to your employment and then there's Co pays and deductibles and the people who don't have insurance bay there. It is inconceivable to the rest of the civilized world if we have one silver lining from this whole mess. Hopefully keep the deaths down that. Keep the Kerr flat people you know. The the horror is minimized as much as be and we come out on the other end with people knowing that we need universal health care. We need a single payer healthcare system and look you think how many of our major policies have come out of bad things. That's not a bad thing to wish for right. The idea of the good things come out of bad things. The trial shirt waist factory meant that workers. Don't work in rooms that are locked so that if there's cleared they can't get out. People had to die for us to say. Wow that seems to be a no brainer. There are lots of places in the world who don't have basic rules like that. So I think that you know. I A report on hurricanes talk about climate change and people would say. This isn't the time and I reported on so many shootings oxide and people said this is the time to talk about gun control. Well guess what. It's actually always the time to talk about ways in which we can handle this thing. That's happening now differently and better in the future so I think we can hold both those thoughts together. We're in a crisis and rule. Number one is fix that? But let's talk about how we fix this looming board absolutely alley Velka. Keep talking to you for an hour. Overstayed my welcome already. Thank you so much. What a what a pleasure this has been. I do enjoy waking up and watching you weekend mornings. I even better when someone's out and see it's you in the Fillon Chair because I trust you and I like you and now I think your friends so Allie Vel. She find him. His website is Ashville is dot com. He's on twitter at Allie Belge. And of course you find him on. Msnbc pretty much all the time. But certainly Saturday and Sunday mornings from eight to ten eastern. What a pleasure. This has been thank you so much. It was great meeting you. There you go no no no. It would help if I turned off the The echo machine and Alabel she. How awesome was that truly? I saw he. He turned out to be every not every bit as nice as I thought he would be. And also made me late for our next appointment. So let's not wait any longer because she's there she's on the line You Know Kelly Carlin certainly you. Well you know. I'm looking for the R. H. I've got so many things if you could see my desktop there she is okay. Hey Kelly Carlin role. This is so exciting. So you're out there in Los Angeles. I'm here in southern California. We've actually done this before where I've participated with you in some of your workshops but we'll get to that everybody knows the name Carlin. Of course they know your dad. Kelly Carlin is the daughter of wh who I think is if we had a comic laureate of the Nation. I think George Carlin should be it. He is my hero. I mean I grew up listening to class clown in reciting the seven dirty words in. I mean yeah that wisdom and the wisdom that your father imparted and so when I got to know you Kelly. I just I could see his influence in you so much. I was lucky enough to read your book when you came out with it a few years ago. A Carlin home companion that everybody should read and And then the one woman show that you did that. Sorta grew out of the book or the book out of the show. I'm not sure your life is fascinating because you were born into show business and entertainment and humor and and you do that and you've done that and you continue to do that but you also went off on your own and studied. Psychology explained to everybody. You have a masters in Jungian psychology. Yeah I got my in counseling psychology with an emphasis on unions psychology from a place called PACIFICA Graduate Institute in Montecito. Santa Barbara California and so I've I got I got that sixteen years ago. In two thousand and four. I've always been fascinated with People's journeys well first of all my own journey. That's why I wrote a memoir and I've always been fascinated by like. How do we go from what shaped us to who we are today to who we want to be next or where do or what's emerging in US next? I've always been fascinated by that inner life and and both my parents were also fascinated with that. My Dad obviously was a thinker and observer of the human condition so he really taught me how to take that witnessing stance with the culture and people and in our own our own kind of inner life that he would share a with some of his material. He wasn't very much person who shared his personal life but he shared this kind of universal. Inner life that we all had together and that of course the big cultural questions and then my mother was very much a seeker and and also a wisdom teacher in her own right she Got Sober in a when I was about twelve years old. She was in her mid thirties at the time and she became a leader in that organization and an a person who sponsored women and helped women and had a women's group and she was always out on some. You Know Mesa somewhere studying with some teacher or something like that. So she was a real seeker so I really. I really got this training from my family of origin that and the humor and and the performing all of that and so yeah and I went and got my masters because I wanted to be a person who used my communication skills you know I have the urge to be out in front of people and sharing stuff. I although I am enjoying this being in my house thing but we'll talk about that in a minute ago it's Kinda what I've been focusing on right But I I wanted to do more than just entertain people I wanted. I wanted someone to walk away with something that they could carry with them. That might like either. Plant the seed or break open the seed of transformation for them. I'm I'm just. I'm very committed to that. Transformational process fascinated by it. So that's why dug into all that stuff academically and scholastically plus. I've been a practicing Buddhist and studying Buddhism for over twenty years also So yeah you know this kind of spiritual self growth. Psychological stuff is My personal bliss. That's Awesome I. Just gotTa say in this time when all you whether you're watching a show like mine or something on on MSNBC or CNN. We're looking into people's homes and I got the last time I was in your home. Kelly you have a different picture behind you. You Have Billy Jack Behind you. Oh my God one tin soldier that that was that was the movie of I twelve year old year. And we're like we're right around the same age. I think he was also kind of like my first crush a little bit. Like I had some sort of like weird sexual daddy feelings for him. But he was the man who fought injustice and it was so part of the times and my friend. Chris Bano B. O. N. O. He Paints these amazing different kinds of poetry and things. He'll paint whatever you want and I saw a billy Jack Painting that he had done. I'm like I need a jacket. Really Jackson Tom Laughlin over my shoulder here and he lives in this space. This is the space I work and coach and teach from and he's always reminding me of that kind of inner ally the one who's willing to stand up for wrong in the world and and stand up for the underdog. I mean that's really what he did right. So yeah he's he's an important figure all and yes and Oh my goodness so many memories my best friend. Eva. Who's still my best friend to this day. She lives in Boston. We were down here in Hollywood Florida. We were in in seventh grade. And and Billy Jack was playing at the little thin movie theater off of Sheridan Street and we wrote our bicycles and we went and this was our movie and it still is not too long ago. I sent her an. Mp Three of Coven. Who was the band who sang one tim? So one soldier incentive so. It's our thing so when I saw that I'm just like Oh my God. This is so perfect. I absolutely love it. That's so great it. Is we connect on so many levels so when when we're sitting here going through this whatever it is this thing that we're united across the planet in this isolation? We're all going through this stuff together. I don't know if I told you I've been calling around the world in meeting people in other countries and checking in with them on how they're doing. I met a wonderful woman from Finland yesterday and one from Denmark and one from New South Wales Australia. And it's just it's bringing the world together but I also I also know that we are all going through some mental things. Many people who don't do a lot of work don't understand what's going on people like me who fought depression for years. I feel that it's like oh that's creeping in. This is not good and I watch how it's affecting my daughter who will celebrate her twenty first birthday locked in this house with us and so I there have to be ways for us to get in our minds or get out of our minds and deal with it and Kelly. Honestly you're the first person I thought of because I know you lead these workshops from your home you do it on zoom. I did a series with you a couple of years ago. That was just wonderful and so I contacted you and said Hey. Would you consider leading us in in some kind of a guided meditation to that speaks to these weird times? We're living in. Yeah and before we get to that. I just want to talk about a couple of things. One of which is whether you are used to being in relationship with your inner life or not You are today. It's right here front and center so whatever. Our stuff is That normally maybe we're too busy to deal with or we cover over. We distract ourselves with them. We all do that on normal levels all the time you know but for those of us who aren't used to hearing all of these lovely voices that live inside of our here they. Are you know front and center and so and it can be an those of us who are used to even listening to these things. There's even more voices and they're even you know because we have nothing related distract ourselves unless we distract ourselves knowingly which is also really important during these times to do some healthy distractions. I've been doing jigsaw. Puzzles My husband and I are jigsaw. Puzzle wound up to say I love it so that it's Okay. It's just okay. That whatever's coming up is here and that's one of the things I think hardest for us. Humans to deal with is is we want to we. We want to push away the stuff. That's Kinda scary or negative or different or new And we spend so much effort and energy Pushing things away or trying to make things that that that are here. Change that we can't change like we're in this like we can't change that there's a virus all over. We can't change that. Most of us are asked to stay in our homes right now and and not work or we can't change that the economy's doing this thing that it's doing you know. So we're feeling very powerless right now. And so we fight against that powerlessness. And the thing I've learned. Is that the fighting against it usually causes more suffering than just learning to be with. What is Right okay so. And that's kind of the basics of what Buddhism is like you know suffering comes from the fact that we are pushing against two big realities. Which is that everything changes? Hello it right and that and that everything is and that and that what is is like we can't we can't change the change so everything's changing and we can't do anything about it. Were powerless over most of it. And so the really the first thing to do is to just let ourselves gifts ourselves permission to just be with whatever we're going through whether it's severe anxiety which I have. I've had anxiety disorder in my past. I had panic attacks for a good twelve years of my life in my twenties and into my thirties. I understand what that feels like I. I had a panic attack about two weeks ago. It came back up so whether we're dealing with anxiety which we normally deal with and it's at an elevated level or were noticing anxiety for the first time like why can't I sleep. Why aren't I sleeping? Well why am I eating everything in I refer? Yes we do. Why can't I stop Jigsaw? Puzzle League or you know or why. Can't I turn off the news even one way to deal with anxiety? Is We want information. We think it more information is GonNa make things Us feel safer and it is true. That having a certain amount of information can calm us but when we reach the saturation point with information and the bottom line is every day. You don't need as much information as you think you need in order to get through this through so turning off the news or turning away from media can feel scary at first. Because it's kind of like a lifeline or a security blanket for us to have a voice in the house or to have alley vel sheet or yourself or someone always there right right but our our nervous system gets over stimulated and it can't ramp down and route and restore itself so were in this sympathetic fight or flight all the time with it that or so learning to be with just who we where we are right now what we're feeling and letting it be okay is the first step and it can feel like an impossibility like what do you mean. I can't just be with this anxiety or this depression or this uncertainty and yet I'm here to say that you actually can. You can do this so I can absolutely lead us in a little like five to seven minute. Exercise is GonNa stick with what is right now. Okay so I'm going to invite everyone out there who's listening or watching too. If you feel safe enough to close your eyes and the first thing I want you to do with your eyes closed and I'm gonNA close my eyes to so I just want you just recognize what it feels like to. Just be in the space that you're in right now. Whatever room you're in and when we we can do that is we can just open our ears and focus our awareness on what we're hearing right now. Of course you're hearing my voice in this space but when of not talking what are you noticing? Maybe notice airplane noise or car noise. Although these days there's less of that maybe the air conditioning on. Maybe you noticed some other people in your house making noise whatever it is just notice the noises and let your whole awareness be that and then we're GonNa move now to notice our bodies just letting our bodies be in this space in the first way we can do. That is to notice the weight of our body on this chair or SOFA or wherever you happen to be right. Now if you're standing noticing your weight on your feet and notice all the places that your body is touching this chair or the ground and that's all you have to notice right now and then now what I want you to notice is just want you to notice your body. What does it feel like? Does it feel you noticing some tension? Maybe some butterflies. Are you noticing that you can't really feel your body? Maybe you feel released spaced out disembodied. Maybe you're feeling super heavy. Maybe you're feeling anxiety in your chest. Just notice it like you were a scientist and you're GONNA have to describe it to someone else. Sedona get attached to maybe the emotion behind it. What's the sensation? And just say to yourself. Some adjectives that might describe floaty. Maybe fluttering chest and just by noticing this. You might even notice now that something has changed but something else is showing up. Maybe it isn't emotion. Maybe it's tiredness. Maybe it's a craving suddenly double chocolate Milano. Sound really good whatever it is. I just want you to give yourself permission to just be with. What's here now knowing that you're perfectly safe. There are no tigers in the room. So you're okay here. Just feel whatever's going on and just notice it. You don't have to do anything about it. You don't have to change it you don't have to solve it and whatever you're feeling is allowed you have permission to be feeling whatever it is. You're feeling just in the here and now there's no right way to do this. There's no wrong way to do this. You could even be feeling total confusion about these instructions in. You could just acknowledge. I'm feeling confused. That's what's here right now and notice that when you sit with what is. What's true for you in this moment? Just watch and see what happens next. Maybe the same feeling. Maybe it changes into something else. Maybe confusion now is relaxed or tired is awake just like before just name the sensation or the experience. You're having and notice the permission in the space that you're allowed to give yourself to just be here. Just notice it. Are you comfortable being here? Giving yourself permission to do this or is it challenging. Nothing's wrong nothing's right. There's no right way wrong way. It's just your experience and then the last thing I want us to do is just take a moment and focus on our breath and what does that mean that just means now taking your awareness noticing your natural breathing and you can do this by watching or feeling your tummy or your chest or the air moving through your mouth your nose. You can put your hand on your chest Stephen in your body ever so slightly moving your breath is your one companion as long as you are conscious and alive. It is always with you. It's always here for you. It's your ally it's your companion and it's the very thing that knows you always with you and it is the one way in which you have proof that the universe is supporting you right now because you're in a room at has air in it for you to breathe and so with that gently we're GONNA come out of this meditation slowly. Open your eyes. If they've been closed notice where you are now. There's no right there's no wrong. You may be exactly where you were six minutes ago when we started this or you may be somewhere else. The point is is that there's actually no where to go and nothing to do. There's just where you are right now and it's okay to be quiet like that and have your thoughts but take take deep breaths and and you know the whole issue about quieting one's mind if you concentrate on the breath. That's that's where your mind is spending energy right. The thing too is everyone. Says I can't meditate because I can't shut my mind right. Guess what your minds job is not to shut up your brain and your mind are hardwired in order to always be in some sort of mode to protect you in. It's always looking for three things. It's looking for the horizon to figure out. Am I safe? Are There Tigers in the room is there? Food is their resources to keep this body alive. And if you're of mating age where's the thing that I need to make in order to keep the species alive like that's the hard wiring of your brain? So your brain is activated to be doing that all the time. That's kind of the more primitive part of our brain and it's always moving so the first time we sit with silence or S- or stop or be quiet and into stillness. This thing comes roaring forward because it's the first time we're actually noticing it like oh look at this companion. That's here all the time. What the way I like to do is just meted as if you were meeting a friendly neighbor and go hi. Mind High Brain. Thank you for being here. Thank you for doing your job and keeping me safe right now but I wanna let you know. There are no tigers in the Rome There is food in the fridge and Right now I don't need to find someone to mate with God. Go in the other room and do that with your partner. That's certainly an option right. But for sitting on a meditate. These are the three things so we get really friendly with it. And Say I'm GonNa let you be here and know that you're probably going to distract me every ten to fifteen to twenty seconds but my whole job is just to move back around to the breath and say all right. We're just going to go back to the breath for a little while. I know you're be back to distract me. It's no big deal. It's perfectly normal and I'm just going to sit here and there's so many great apps right now you know there's insight timer and there's calm all these great apps that I really really recommend to people to connect you. There's guided meditations there's timers there's all sorts of things but what. I'm excited about this time. Is that people are getting to see that. Maybe they do need to be friendlier with their inner life in their mind right now and so if you've never done meditation yea. Welcome to the world of mindfulness and meditation. It's a beautiful time to to learn about it because there's so many resources and if you're someone like me who's been doing this. Awhile has a bit of a practice has been on this journey for a while. You may you get to really deepen your sense of retreat and your sense of practice and really make this time your own and start to strengthen that muscle even more so that as we move through these uncertain times which I'm guessing is going to be seriously another year are sure. Yeah and there's nothing we're not going back to the way life was in January so the welcome to the new normal and I hate that. I hate that phrase. But it's true. So who do you want to be in this new normal? How do you WANNA learn to be with yourself? And how do you WanNa resource yourself more during this new normal time? So people can do this on themselves. You mentioned calm inside timer. I've got both of them on my phone. I'm but you also lead some groups in fact you you're doing a couple of things you have a weekly unplugged with Kelly Carlin. I'm not I'm not doing that. Live in okay. Certainly sign up for it and If you Find me on my my my mailing list. Which is Kelly Carlin Dot Com? You can sign up for my mailing list. Okay and I'm always putting an offer out right now there's an archive of those things half there Sorry Ninety Minute Lessons around. Mindfulness and all sorts of self. Help stuff. I'm not doing that live anymore but what I am doing right now is. I'm working with women. have a A program called women on the verge and it's about going deep to take the lead and I really believe that women are well. Women are the future a lot of ways because Women have a lot of resources within them and have a lot of ways of looking at the world that I think is what the world really needs right now. Some very interested in helping women who WANNA share their gifts with the world to step into their power and their authority in their own voice and to have a deep relationship with their inner life. Move the baggage. The old stories the old narratives out so that they can step into their strength and their power and their vision and move out into the world. So I've been doing this work now for about a year and a half. I also work. Part of this work is about helping women who are in a major transition in their life whether it's divorce or their widowed or they're moving into a new career or they're empty nesting or they're just in that space where they know. It's time for them to step up an into fully a fully realized version of themselves and so You can go to women on the verge. Coaching DOT COM okay. And that's a landing page at talks a little bit about the program and there's a little Survey there that you can answer some questions to really see if it's the right fit for you and if it is I love to have conversations and I give a free. Coaching called a women that it feels like. It's the right fit for So yeah and then you can always find me on twitter. I'm always doing stuff on twitter. I'm sometimes doing live stuff there. I do live step on instagram. I'm no longer on facebook. I walked away in November. Very happy could not do it anymore. Yes I know. Instagram's owned by Facebook But so I used to live stuff over there but I usually do live stuff on instagram. Or twitter But Yeah I'm just. I'm very dedicated to helping people look through these lenses And Right now. My main focus is with women and really hoping that women can find their Their sovereignty in the world like the I know that's a weird word to use but I think when women hear it they. They hear me which is their rightful place. You know in their lives and therefore leading the work that they're here to do in the world moved through them so that they can have the impact that they want to have in the world because we all WanNa have some sort of positive impact. Oh yeah and this is telling us. It's the year of the woman. Let's make it. Let's make itself. I think it's the millennium of the woman that were basic trust. That works men and I'm not a man. God Not a man bashing nothing like that people I I love men. Men are important in my life But there's something about being with a group of women and growing with a group of women and going through a transformational process with a group of women. That's very different than being in a coed situation. And that's why I work exclusively with women. Gotcha all right while the website again. Is Kelly Carlin Dot Com? You'll find all this. They're also women on the verge. Coaching DOT COM. I'll put it all on my blog at Nicole Sandler dot com along with this show. Kelly thank you so much. What a treat this was. What a great way to end the week because this is something that people can go back to and give you just a take. This was a taste of a meditation. And she she. That'll drop and expand on it and it does help someone in the Chat Room. Just said well. I was feeling really stressed that helped. And that's what it's about it's about helping you've helped me so much Kelly. I- door you. I thank you so much for doing this with us today. I'm really really honored to have the invitation and thank you for having me. Let's my pleasure. You take care out there. Stay safe and we'll we'll and Billy Jack Says Hi Jack. We'll have to virtual maybe watching of the movie one of these days another one soldier away. Okay but don't want on by later all right everyone with that. We have run way too long so I am going to. I'm going to have to edit this for a progressive voices but everyone else will get the full full show on the On the podcast and the youtube that all will stay. But let me run so I can edit it to get something on the air at five o'clock at progressive voices. Thank you for being here today. I thought this was a special show. I thought it was a pretty special week. We'll get through this as I said earlier. It may take a different shape or form. But let's do it together. All right have a wonderful wonderful weekend. Thank you so much for listening and I know I keep threatening to do a Monday. Show Monday or Tuesday. Stop by Monday. We'll see I don't know I can't promise anything. Thanks everyone by.