4 Episode results for "Carl Solomon"
Bob Dylan: About Man and God and Law 01 - Salvation
"Villain. Was He was a revolutionary man the way that the way that Elvis freed your body Bob freed your mind. This is Bob Dylan. About Ma'am. And God and Law. Blue. When I look out out there when I look into your faces, you know what? I see. I see a little bit of Elvis in each and every one of you out there limit you. Body. That's right and I have to say there with the. Mojo Nixon sings a tune called Elvis is everywhere. It's a tongue-in-cheek deification of the King Elvis who seemed to pop up all over the place in the eighties and nineties he was in people's Dreams tabloid headlines An impersonator at a wedding or in a television commercial you might remember this is Elvis TV series chasing down his history which was narrated by an Elvis impersonator as if it was Elvis himself speaking, and then what are you know there was elvis buying a slurpee at the seven eleven down the street just a few minutes later. Elvis was a pop culture mythic force documented by buzz seeking journalists and intellectuals alike evidence of the hunger in American culture to meet Gods and angels in dreams and Oracles just like believers would meet the divine long long ago. When I look into your eyes out there Mojo Nixon sang when I look into your faces. You know what I see. I see a little bit of Elvis in each and every one of you out there. Let me tell you well Elvis is everywhere. Today as a force in popular culture as as the baby boomers have aged pop culture itself has become ever more stratified by demographics and John Resin platforms. Elvis is no longer everywhere. But Bob Dylan is. At the decidedly non pop age of seventy nine, which is nearly double Elvis's age at Death Dylan has had the number one pop song in the land with murder most foul. Look to the chatter where the wheels of pop culture turn choose almost any point of view biographical, political, religious, literary, musical, philosophical, or historical, and the chances are that it's being used to explain Bob Dylan and his work hundreds of books, thousands of articles, and at ever expanding universe of list-serve websites, magazines, academic courses, and conferences Sing Dylan's loyal chorus of commentary. Edging towards seventh decade on the Public Stage Dylan continues to waive his baton in every direction urging the chorus onward. Even if we know he's not much for choruses. Dylan's work has repercussions not only for those of US still fascinated by his continuing contribution to popular culture but also for anyone who cares about how popular culture shapes the world. have got my back to the sun because the light is too intense. Dylan sings and sugar baby. I can see what everybody in the world is up against. You can't turn back. You can't come back sometimes we push too far. One day, you'll open up your eyes and you'll see where we are. From more than half a century trying to understand dylan songs has been for many. Like unfolding the criss crossing lines of a map of the entire world. Well. We're going to take a shot at reading those maps particularly in a moment where the world we thought we knew seems like an charted territory. I'm Steven, Daniel Arnav, and this is Bob Dylan about man and God and Law a podcast that tells the story of how Bob Dylan sparked a revolution of spirit and why it matters. To, open up our eyes to the music of Bob Dylan not only see where we really are. But where we need to go. So. Welcome to episode one of Bob Dylan about man and God and Law Salvation to be. On. Not to be. that. Is the question. Now. Long before the unlikely chart topper murder most foul expounded upon a line from Hamlet Taufer strange comfort to a world jolted by Cova nineteen and protests and riots against racism. In the spring of two, thousand, twenty Bob Dylan was searching for salvation in a limousine hurtling across the British countryside. The year was nineteen, sixty five. Dylan and his posse had taken their places in a dreamlike reflection on the silver screen in a scene imagined in Todd Haynes is two thousand, seven film based on Dylan songs and story. The film is called. I'm not there. But let's give this contexts. Context by nineteen, sixty, five dylan had become the most important cultural figure of the twentieth century. This was the period his most concentrated in fierce creative influence in the spin of just fifteen months March nineteen, sixty, five to may nineteen, sixty, six, dylan released three of the greatest rock albums of all time. Bringing it all back home highway sixty, one revisited and blonde on. Blonde. His songwriting and recording were feverishly prolific. He had taken on am vicious publishing and film projects and took part in an exhausting live tours spanning four continents backed by a crew of road warriors who would later become known as the band. The shows on this tour documented in D. A. Penna Bakers pioneering rock doc don't look back included a first set of Solo Acoustic renditions of epic musical dreamscapes that had shattered the mold of songwriting for pop by the Time Dylan, was twenty three. And then a scorching said of angry loud rock intitiated the punks just as those punks were getting their first guitars. In the UK the period that Hanes, his film calls upon vividly there were walkouts heckling and even famous shout of Judas in Manchester as reimagined in I'm not there dylan passes the time on a long ride. The quiet home of a black limo a well-dressed journalist with the patrician accent, stern jaw and diamond cutting stare of a very serious man questions him. As evidenced by penna Baker's film and other footage from the same period, dylan was frenetic, sarcastic confident and very funny as he conjured both the destination and the map for a new age of music celebrity the Rockstar as a seeker of truth and hipster scene maker all at once. This New Paradigm for the possibilities, of Pop, Gurus both confounded and excited the press and Dylan played his role. masterfully, journalists sparred with a scruffy hair chain smoking dylan whose press conferences from San Francisco to Paris became spoken word happenings. A flow of questions ranging from the nature of hygiene on the road to the meaning of life would be asked of rockstars for decades to come. And Bob. Dylan. He was inventing them. How many people who Labor in the same musical vineyard in which you toil how many are protests singers that is people who use their music and use the songs to protest the social state in which we live today the matter of war, the matter of crime or whatever it might be How many? Yes. Are there many? There's about. One, hundred, thirty, six. Say about one, hundred and thirty six. Are you mean exactly a hundred and thirty six Thirty six, hundred, forty, two, as the press hounded him for explanations about where he was really at and what was it? He wanted Dylan played with them like a cat plays with a mouse cigarette smoke curling to the ceiling and photo bulbs or flashing how for Carl, Solomon. I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness starving hysterical naked dragging themselves through the Negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix angel headed hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry Dynamo in the machinery of night who poverty in tatters and hollow I like any master of any art Bob Dylan has had many teachers. Allen. Ginsberg a pop intellectual pioneer whose creative line of American sexuality and spiritualism links back to walt. Whitman. Once said of Dylan there is a very famous saying among Tibetan Buddhists. If the student is not better than the teacher. Then, the teacher is a failure. It was Ginsburg symbolically chuckling in a prayer shawl in the background of video for subterranean homesick blues while Dylan per passively tossed away placards imprinted with the key words of the song in a style, anticipating mashups of image text and sound nearly two decades before MTV standardized. This modus for all media it was also Ginsburg who offered magnanimous praise occasional liner notes and a lot of poetic license as validation of Dylan's gifts even as Ginsberg's own pop intellectual cultural poll slackened while rock and roll's grew. So this is the context. Dylan is a force of nature disrupting popular culture. He's inherited the mantle of provocation from the beats and its most prominent figure outside of perhaps Jack Kerouac in Allen Ginsberg. And now he's in the midst of a tour that cracks open the possibilities for Rockstar myth making. The scene and I'm not there brings it all back home. GINSBURG putters up alongside Dylan's limo and Dylan played in an almost perfect impersonation by the actress Cate Blanchett gets asked the question whose answer will define the spiritual redemptive revolutionary potential for rock and roll meaning that defines the journey of Dylan's entire career as well. Eight o'clock gaining English. Isn't that what's his name poet Ginsburg Allen Ginsberg. You. Oh my God it is. Freeman. Alan thought I was doing there. I. Don't think you do have mad. Allen tell them what you said to that reported. The one that asked if you thought that Judas sold out with they're asking you. Said I didn't know perhaps you sold out to God. ME. Well if you've mission was to see whether. You could do great art on the Jukebox. We benefited profited you said by his words and. With it So Let. Now. Now. Let's Let. Oh. My Salvation. See what we can do. Oh, he'll the do. Allen Ginsberg man. Later Allen Ginsberg. My Salvation. Two words rise with the choppy syncopation that could suggest either sincerity or jest. But only dylan gets to say them here. It's an answer embedded in a question divided by four syllables but stretching itself out like the lazy reprise of a song. Maybe hundreds of songs. After Dylan and GINSBURG shake hands goodbye through the window both vehicles still moving the tinkling of kitschy twilight zone music carries out the scene. Some highly like a stone Cherub, Ginsburg veers off the road toward the cemetery of all places saying, well, we'll see what we can do like most of Hanes is film this exchange between Bob Dylan and Allen Ginsberg is a cut and paste dialogue assembled from a Canon of all things dylan that now includes vast treasures and a lot of junk. And a lot of junk gifted as treasures for reflection and speculation. Forty or so studio albums a warehouse of live recordings, some released officially and most not scores of interviews, hundreds of books, and then there are the books that Dylan is written including chronicles volume one. There's never been a volume two as well as a universal theorizing using and chatter about what he sings and says means. I'm not as fun sometimes thrilling job of distilling these vast waters of work in legend into concoction of those six actors playing Dylan that come and go like songs from a pint size smack talking Hobo played by ten year old Marcus Carl Franklin to Richard Gere Who's pinnacle scene takes place accompanied by the ban collects Akot and guest singer Jim James in a gorgeous version of Dylan's go into Acapulco performed in a town called Riddle Minnesota. If the creative concede if I'm not there rests upon a riddle asking what the many faces of Bob Dylan are trying to find. Then the meeting of Student Dylan and teacher Ginsburg. Offers an answer not only to what Dylan's work has been seeking for all these years. But also, what animates rock and roll is a cultural force that it was becoming The answer. My friend is blowing everything up. Yes that's rock and roll. But in the rubble, the fund coupling and decoupling the obsession with sound is the pursuit through music and text and people for the answer to life's purpose through the music. That's the salvation. A CHANGE IS GONNA come stairway to Heaven Two tickets to Paradise Get on your knees boy in all starts and ends in the same place looking for redemption for salvation that only rock and roll can bring you find yourself like being more religious person these that you yourselves religious person these days. Religious person version. Is Supposedly Force reposited. Good. Where can you lookin'? World. And see that religion has been enforced for positive. Good. We're working you look at humanity and say humanity has been uplifted by a connection to godly. Power. Connection Godly power meaning to. Religion. By, golly how're you mean? I can't believe in is I can't look organized. Religion is doing these days and see anything positive as being done local corporation share they chance. It depends what would you talk about? Every again anything of religion you study religion I'm still having at one point you. You, how were serious? You took on Christiane a very serious way. Judaism are very serious way. Where do you? Where are you? Now all that we've been religious religion is is is either something that. Is. Mostly, outward appearance. Faith is a different thing but. Know how. Many religions are there in the world quite a few actually what what is your fate? What do you have faith faith doesn't have a name it doesn't have a category. It's oblique. So it's unspeakable. WE DO GREAT Faith, by talking about religion. Bob Dylan has been wrestling with the question of salvation ever since he was a twenty year old new arrival to New York City singing see that my grave is kept clean in a voice that previewed a cast of musical characters containing multitudes. and. All of them were searching for salvation. In the words of Grill Marcus perhaps the most influential thinker about Dylan, outside of Dylan quote in a signal way, he was the folk. And also a prophet. As, he sang in Rhode. He was the slave on the auction block the whore chain to her bed. A questioning, youth. An old man looking back in sorrow and regret. Dylan search for salvation in his songs as literal mystical playful mundane. Funny. And transcendent. His Revolution. His mission and coercion in the words of Allen Ginsberg is that he brought the pursuit of the ancient. An. Inextinguishable idea of salvation to the Jukebox to the radio, the record collection, the concert hall, and most importantly perhaps to the imagination of a world where traditional religion had lost its ability to do this for millions and millions of people. Dylan has been the singular figure who exploded cultural possibilities for renewed expression of the thoughts, feelings and rituals traditionally harboured by ancient creeds by gathering the pieces of traditional voices, word sensations, and. Around him and replayed them in songs. This made it possible and in some ways. Unavoidable. For All rockers who followed him to join in shaping what meaning popular music could glean. Beyond traditional religion. Just like in I'm not there in this podcast and the book were working on alongside of it. We are listening to Dylan songs as a journey through the life and death riddle of salvation. Were hearing his work is a collection of recipes for redemption. The, repurposing on the purpose of things meditations on the possibility of meaning in a world in which the traditional myth and ritual of religion had come to do more to distance. Than to bring them together. Without Dylan. We imagine that the world and wonder of the ancients would have remained flat to popular culture. But with Dylan. Rock and roll came to expand, exploit, inspire, and rule an empire defined by a whole new code for ancient ideas, religious ideas, communal and individual rituals that would otherwise have died. Agree. Lean. Ain't. Talkin. A. Song from two thousand and six that will accompany much of this conversation. Captures the theme of Salvation and Dylan's role it with sweet precision. I practice a faith that's been long abandoned. Ain't no altars on this long and Lonesome Road Dylan sings. What's the faith? What does it mean that it has been abandoned? What's an alter? What's the road? In a world where Dogma and ritual of the ancients had fallen. Great questions of purpose took root in Dylan's work, and then spread throughout popular music shaping ways of making sense of the world that religion had always owned. But for millions of people who inhabited the rock and roll empire could no longer provide. We're suggesting that by the time of his emergence in the early nineteen sixties, the borders of the rock and roll empire. vast expanse of territory something like the Roman. Empire plus the quote unquote new world had already been forming for centuries of Talt in the battles between various conceptions of religious and secular purpose for humanity. For spare you the sociology of religion course but suffice it to say that after the enlightenment of the eighteenth century what will call secular culture began to develop scientific or sensual rejecting religious dogma. It spawned a world of entertainment outside of rituals commanded by the church or its aristocratic allies. People. Could opt out of religious control by the masses and so much was gained for freedom of expression. And the possibility of self-discovery. Ain't. Talking. Just Walk and Dylan sinks. I practice a faith that's been long abandoned. A No altars on this long and lonesome road. Now in the annals of the Gospels of Dylan. The stories fans till about him. Dylan is often spotted wandering looking for something. One version has in peeking into the window of John Lennon's childhood home. Another finds him searching out the neighborhood where Bruce springsteen lived as a child and includes law enforcement nearly arresting Dylan who did not have proper identification at the time and Like not a few wasted nondescript profiteering stragglers on nondescript streets claim to be none other than Bob Dylan in another tale Dylan steps down from his tour bus on a rainy night the hood of his hooded sweatshirt pulled snugly over his head and ducks into a doorway. A couple passes and Dylan head down supposedly witnessed by one of his disciples holds out his hand for change. Maybe he was reaching out pretending to be a beggar tongue in cheek or hand in Chico for a thousand and one other reasons why any human being goofs around during a long boring trip on a bus. But as he wants sang in going to Acapulco. Now if someone offers me a joke I, just say, no thanks I try to tell it like it is and stay away from pranks. After all. Like it or not. And with endless curiosity and fans and critics to prove it. Whatever Dylan does. People. Take, notice. Chore False, embellished, or made up altogether reaching out for salvation at every single stop on his journey is the essence of Bob Dylan's work. Stories like these would have had to have been told whether he meant them to be told or not. The world needed a dylan figure just when he arrived and made this need abundantly. Clear. If I wasn't Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan one said. I'd probably think that Bob Dylan has a lot of answers myself. Chuck about musicians you know maybe one thousand are we're listening to? Interns what they had to say terms of what they had to save churches, what they're putting forth terms of. The world they're they're they're ball Dan the. You know in terms of In terms of moving he showed us that just because the music was in physical. Did Not mean that it was anti intellect. Division in the town to expand the pop song until to contain the whole world. Invented a new way pop singer could sow. Broke. Through the limitations. Of. What recording artists could achieve any change a face of rock and roll reverend musically, he's not very gifted. You know he's borrowed his voice from old hillbillies. He's got a lot of burrowed things. He's not a great guitar player you know. bended a character to deliver his songs sometimes. They'd care too. You know because you know you can do things with that character you know. It's a mask of sorts. Sometimes, we wish we'd invented that character not. Joni Mitchell. At the death of boxer. Muhammed Ali. One of the few pop culture figures in the sixties to have influenced world consciousness at Dylan's scale Dylan wrote. If. The measure of greatness is to gladden the heart of every human being on the face of the earth. Then he truly was the greatest. If the measure of the greatest is to open up hearts to meeting and purpose in a medium that would dominate the cultural landscape at the peak of its power. Then Dylan who actually owns a boxing club in L. A., and works out there once in a while is right there in the ring with the champ. I bargained for salvation. They gave me a lethal dose Dylan sings in Nineteen, seventy, four shelter from the storm. Are All people in some way bargaining for salvation. And what happens to that negotiation? When old ways of finding salvation have lost currency that had dominated human consciousness. For centuries. This journey towards salvation is Bob Dylan's story and because of his greatness. And Good Fortune to be the right man at the right time. It's our story to. The early twentieth century sociologist of religion Max Weber wrote. Who knows at the end of this tremendous development? Entirely new prophets will arise. War. There will be a great rebirth of old ideas and ideals. In other words with the collapse of the possibility of traditional religion delivering a path to salvation for so many. The need for deep meaning and purpose didn't die. It just took other forms. And Dylan was the key figure in creating the landscape for those new forms. and New Prophets. Take shape. In our next episode, we'll get into how all this rock and roll salvation works. Will start with Bob, Dylan and the agents. And enter a secret rock and roll history of a little number called the Western world. It's quest for redemption. It's aligned runs from POMPEII through Shakespeare and Carl young to the Kennedy assassination and Sergeant Pepper's right up to today. This has been episode one of Bob, Dylan about man and God and Law. For show notes, clips, and other good stuff relating to our podcast. Please visit man God Law Dot Com. I'm Steven Daniel off. See you soon.
What the Battle To Publish Allen Ginsberg's 'Howl' Means to Today's Free-Speech Struggles
"This is the reason podcasts. And I'm your house nNcholas Speight. Thanks for listening. I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness. Starving hysterical naked dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix angel headed hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night. So of you might recognize those as the opening lines to Allen Ginsberg's mid nineteen fifties poem howl, which helped kickstart both a major cultural and legal transformation in America. When that made our country looser hip and one much more peace with all sorts of alternate lifestyles, libertine sexuality, and perhaps most importantly, speech was profane raucous inventive in unrestrained. What Ginsberg's fellow beat Jack heroic called spontaneous. Bob president. Immediately upon howls debut in print Ginsberg's publisher Lawrence Furlan Getty of city lights. Books was hauled into court on obscenity charges in San Francisco of all places the trial, which ended in a very surprising and unexpected not guilty verdict helped to usher in a new era free speech in America but is the euro free speech ending everywhere. We look at seems are more and more attempts to shut down things that are considered offensive or provocative speech. Sometimes in the name of protecting kids or protecting the sensibilities of marginalized ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities or protecting the political process from dark money in Russian influence. Sometimes we shut down free speech in the name of national security. But everywhere it seems the threats in the need to shut down speech is growing. My guest today is Ronald kale Collins. He's a lawyer and scholar at the Newseum first amendment Law Center and he's. The author of fantastic weekly blog called first amendment news. You can subscribe to that, at the website of the foundation for individual rights at education. Look for them online at the fire dot org. Collins is also the co author with David cover of the new book, the people vs Lawrence Furling, Getty, the fight to publish Allen Ginsberg's howl. It's a fast paced history of the obscenity trial that ended in a major victory for free expression in America. We're going to talk to him about his book, and the enduring relevance of the case, he describes to contemporary debates about free speech. Ron Collins thanks for talking to raise it. It's such a great opportunity to be here. And I really appreciate the conversation we're about to have Nick. All right. And you know, because this both is reason, and it's the twenty first century of American, the lights for free speech going at all over the place. I don't want to mandate that you curse a lot. But if you want to, you know let the expletives fly, but what's the elephant, member wrote a book on Lenny BRUCE'S, so I'm? That's. Which I reviewed favorably in Reza we, we'll get into that a little bit because I really don't think that Lenny, Bruce funny, but he is important. And he, he was a free speech, martyr. I mean, there's no question about it as is in a way Furling Getty, although Furlan Getty was able to get off the cross and live another. Dozens of years. I mean he's, he's still with us. Yeah. He's one hundred years old. But so I guess start off then who is learns? Furling gatty. Wow. Where do I begin? Well, Lawrence Farallon Getty first and foremost is the owner. And the original founder co founder of city lights books in San Francisco. He's a publisher he say, nationally or internationally, renowned poet, he's a bookseller and he's a guy with a lot of spunk. And a lot of backbone. And he knows what he wants and he doesn't let anything stand in the way in other words, he's an American maverick. That's how I begin the book with David scooper. He's a man of many stripes, socialist activists environmentalist first amendment advocate berry strong advocate. He's fat Trinh. Oh, yes. A veteran of the second World War. Yes. Yes. So PHD as well. And literature. I mean the guys just he's incredible. So, and you also for all of the tight Ed has he's best known as a poet himself for the collection. A Coney Island of the mind, which sold something like a million copies something. I mean it's one of the best selling poetry books of the postwar era, but you also at various points, just because I know some reason people be like is an environmentalists these socialists. These this is a pacifist after World War. Two are the dropping of the nuclear warriors and anti nuke guy. And I don't know that any reason, you know, listeners readers or anything are actually pro nuclear bombs being dropped. They may be I we can go all sorts of ways with. But you also refer to Furling Getty at various points as libertarian. What do you mean by that in that context because I think it's absolutely correct. Yeah. I mean like I said he wears many hats. I mean, we could be talking about another side of Lawrence felony Getty and talk to him. Talk about him as socialist socialist or what have you, but he's a man that is so committed and has. I've been so committed to free speech that he was willing to put up his business for it. He was pulling put up his career for it, who's willing to go to jail for it and all of this for a oppose that he didn't even ride. I mean he just did. This is a bookseller and book publisher, but we can get. And he loved the pope. He did. And so let's just go back in time a little bit this idea for this book really came many years ago. David, and I were to book on Lenny, Bruce, and, and the attorney for Lenny, Bruce, at least in San Francisco was kind of Albin dick who had worked with the ACLU, and he was Lenny BRUCE'S lawyer. And when we are done with Lenny, Bruce book, you said, you know if you ever want to do another book. There's this, I represented among some other ACLU lawyers Lawrence felon, get it in a obscenity case. And he had all of the trial transcripts. And everything may he had it all. And we thought, wow, this is just another book, popular culture, free speech. What have you? And so we had done a book called mania, and in mania. There was a chapter in their own Lawrence fail and Getty. But then when we saw that he was about to turn hundred. This was about a year ago. We said, you know, this is a book. This is something that just deserves a book in its own. Right. And so as our tribute to learn spelling. Keti. We put together this book and it all begins really. I mean it, it involves a Poet, Allen, Ginsberg, another poet alerts, parent Keti, who's also a bookseller and book publisher unin credible lineup of a lawyers and a most remarkable, but very unusual judge. And that's kind of the mix of it all. And all of this happens in nineteen fifty six and fifty seven and what's going on, at that time in America is culture collusion? A collision excuse me. I said that see were there. Yes, on everybody's mind. We'll say because it never happens. It never happens. It's never happened in the history of America, especially in the past couple of culture collision, and it's a it's a new generation. I mean the sixties really began in the late fifties with the beats and what have you Lenny, Bruce and Jack Carroll? Ac Allen Ginsberg Neal Cassidy and others. And, and this is an idea. This is people with different values people who are really willing to kind of fly libertarian flag to, to each his own to each, you know, the star and their own galaxy. Yeah. What is remarkable about an I think it's worth recovering from the beats, as well as other kind of nonconformist groups the individualism of it. I mean, they, they banded together, and they certainly created their communities and whatnot, but they were individualists in a way that sometimes libertarians get to I think hopped up on the idea of like our, you know you gotta support. Maximum second amendment rights or something as opposed to just the more basic, fundamental understanding that discussions about society and living good and proper light begin an aunt. They don't end with the individual, but they begin with it and uh so that these guys were not overtly political. I mean, none of I don't think any of them were, you know, big Eisenhower fans or Nixon fans, although you to Jack Kerouac probably voted Republican to the extent that he voted, you know, but they were also beyond politics like they weren't gonna waste a lot of their time, you know, ward healing for you know this or that district council mentors. Yeah. I mean they were so political that they were beyond politics. I mean really way beyond it. So what happens is in mid fifties. Allen Ginsberg is leaves an asylum in San Francisco. One of the things he was being treated, therefore, was his homosexuality. They thought that New York was a bad place for him to stay. So they let him leave only on the condition that he goes someplace safe, and so they pick San Francisco. So they so they picked they tell a hub of sexual who at that point. That's synonymous with being mentally ill. You gotta get out of New York, you gotta get a San Francisco to, to, to deal with your latent homosexuality. Yes. So good rely on these with, with a woman, and what have you, but soon enough, he goes back to his wild ways. And remember, homosexuality was crime, then. And so anyway, he comes into city lights bookstore, just opened and the Lawrence felon Getty became the owner was originally, coned. But and they get to the media other Alan pitches, some poems to him, at least the first set of poems, he pitched apparent Getty to pass. But then he started talking about how found getting was very interested in how from the beginning, he loved the fact that it was just so contraire so counterculture, so norm. Breaking so vibrant, so individualistic, so passionate, you know, and that the title, you know, how it was richly hall for call a Carl Solomon Carl. Solomon with somebody he was in the asylum within New York. And so one thing leads to another and found Getty says he's interested and Allen Ginsberg gives a very dramatic presentation of the poem and place called six gallery filled with all these counterculture types. Remember this is before the sixties is a nineteen fifty six other passing around. Big jug of red wine, a probably Gallo or Thunderbird and our. It's in the parlance of the day was dago red. It was a big jug of Santana cheap. Right. Right that karaoke, karaoke. Jack heroic. Was there and was collecting money yelling at him buying. That's absolutely true. And, and most of the poets that gave presentations that they were deadly dull, but Ginsburg he, he comes up. He's wearing a sport coat and a tie. And he's almost Rebekah CLE in the way he presents. I mean, it's just there's just a certain rhythm, there's a certain life. And as you heard him, you know, each stanza. Those who did this who did that who did this who did that. And you can just feel the momentum building and all of a sudden people start pounding their feet, and go and go go go, go. This is while he's reading the poem, and one person who's rather driving the way you describe it. And I'm sorry in bed. I wanna say one of the things that is fantastic about the book is, you know, the history and the legal argumentation in the archival research, and all of that, but I have to say, somebody who reads a lot about the beats and has consumed vast numbers of recollections and stuff. You U N David's stubborn recreation SCO for David's covers recreation of that event is the best that I've read, I felt like I was there, and it was, you know, it's one of those moments when you when you hear about Jimi Hendrix, add, I don't know you to Monterey pop or something. You know, Bob Dylan at the Newport, folk and jazz fest. I mean like this was a moment like that for American. Culture and you guys just did a phenomenal job of capturing that moment. I'm in it just so. Well who does thank you? I mean we actually went to the place where it took place. I it's still there and we recreated the scene in what have you. But it was just this incredible moment, there was fill a lot of trinity afterwards. Kenneth Rexroth Seth something a very prominent literary figure time says someday the Ginsburg that, you know, your future will be different. This is a game changer. Everybody's really kind of excited a hopped up as it were. But there's one guy who's rather. Cool, calm glac did sitting in the back and everybody else goes off to get hammered at one of the local hangs. But this guy decides he's going to go home and type a telegram to Allen, Ginsberg and the telegram, quoted a passage from Emerson and then closed with the line, when do I get the manuscript, this was Lawrence Furlan getting, and so right there. I mean it just it's, it's, it's kind of like who he was. Was he was determined to publish it. And but he realized that there was a risk he was willing to take that risk. And by the way, I just want to appoint here if I may and this is one of the reasons I mean you asked why I said that, you know had this libertine streak in him. A lot of people think that, you know, free speech doesn't have its cost, you know, I can just speak in whatever I say, case it also saw, you know, I'm actually, one of the reasons we, protect speech is because it's risky. Sometimes, you know, it's an experiment is homes once, and one of the great part, part of the greatness of this country, is that we've been willing to take that risk. We've been willing to take those chances Lawrence Farren Getty understood that he could be criminally prosecuted. He understood that his bookstore could be shut down. He understood that this poem might never be published. And he understood that he could go to jail notwithstanding that notwithstanding. He took a chance and in one thousand nine hundred fifty six at that pinpoint and time had you stopped the clock there, you would have said, Larry, there's an excellent chance and even better than an excellent chance that your store will be shut down. You'll go to jail and this poem will never be never see the light to. And this is an, an America, if and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is an America where lady Chatterley's lover tropic of cancer. Li-listen couldn't really be published openly in the United States. Absolutely. And one of the more conservative towns in the United States at that time bleep it or not was San Francisco. They absolutely have hoard all of these counterculture, types, all of the beats types. They were persona non grata, and so, you know, he was willing to take that risk. And really, you know first amendment freedom in this country depends on people like Lenny Bruce depends on people like Lawrence. People who are willing to step forward and say, you know, this is the principle that I'm worth fighting for, but like I said in one thousand nine fifty six. Remember, Roth versus United States. We're going to get to that in, in moment is nineteen fifty seven. So, you know when this first starts out, he realizes there's going to be a problem. He goes to the American Civil Liberties union in northern California. They say we've got your back and the story in terms of, you know, the prosecution would have you happens there. Farren Getty decides is going to have the book published abroad as cheaper what have you. But it turned out that the publisher picked had had some trouble with customs for selling a magazine that was deemed obscene. And so, when the fairlon, by the way, the original Publishing's of Howell abroad, the colorful words had been replaced with Astra's. And so when the book came through customs the customs of better to call attention to yet. Yeah. Absolutely isn't always that way. The but when it came through customs, they just saw the, the name of the publisher, but they didn't open up the boxes that had howled in, and so they seize them on the grounds of their obscene. Well, went went to the US attorney the minister said, you know, if you open the box and look to the manuscripts there's no dirty words and we can't not even a nineteen fifty-six Fifty-seven. Can we prosecute somebody for asterisks? So it was kind of a funny thing, by the way, it's this pinpoint and time and all of these things come together at the same time, the San Francisco, Chronicle really comes to the defense really early on and much to the chagrin of probably the vast majority of its readers. It really comes to the defense of free speech and failing candy and goes after the customs officials and what have you, then falen Getty decides is going to have a printer printed of the United States. But with the colorful language, which means the customs officials can't do anything now. And so a local prosecutor gets wind of this and decides going to do a sting. Operation. They send some undercover agents into city lights books, and I really hope that they were wearing like French boat, shirts, and berets and carrying Bongos just to really aloft economy, really, you just think sting operation really. I mean, not even broader crossover Nevada highway patrol in those days. I mean, essentially what they did is I went in and bought a Cup a couple of copies of the boat because what to prove that Furlan Gaddi was sell so they got they got award. And they came back to rest for the clerk, by the way, the clerk. He had nothing to do with it. He probably would might not even read it. You know it was like what am I getting busted for? Meanwhile, back in ten shares Allen Ginsberg. He's not even in the country. Right. The guy who wrote the poem. I mean, like he's he wrote the poem. But somebody else is paying the price. I mean he's been Dench. Here's so it is Furlan Getty in the end, who is his putting his body on the machine right to kind of quote, proactively. The great Mario salvio speech from the free speech movement. He's the guy who's like enough is enough. And he's he's throwing his body on the machine. They're absolutely Ginsburg is concerned about the has one concern. He writes in some letters, and we quoted in our book, but he is concerned that how may never see the light of the day, and Larry may get prosecuted on the other hand, he says, this is really going to be good for publicity. I mean he realized as the advertising point and it was absolutely spot on. I mean, we could talk about this later, but the price. Secutiy of this poem really brought it to the national attention in ways that it would never happen. And this goes to your point earlier, you know, that when you censor something, you, you really kind of increase the volume thousandfold and certainly this would happen. So anyway, apparently, Getty's prosecuted. So what does he do? Well, he writes letters to the editor on says, I don't care what you to. I'm going to continue to sell this book. And the worst thing that could happen to me. Is I go to jail for several months? It was a misdemeanor mind, you, I'll read and write poetry. Meanwhile, he told the people in his bookstore to fill the window with copies of how, I mean, just think about that. I mean he's just saying to the prosecutor bring it on. Bring it on. And meanwhile, the San Francisco Chronicle again, you know, going after the prosecutor here and again at a time when this would not have been seen as welcomed by most of his readers of it really is to there. I mean it is, I mean what really caught us about this? This whole episode is your have a poet. It a publisher bookseller and a newspaper, you know, all kind and, and the northern chapter the ACO you know, but then you have the judge assigned in the case and you talk about him because this was IBM head. They drew that judge. I mean, the defense must've been like fuck. You know, like start star triggering to how to look good in prison, gray before they had WTO up. You know, they just add. Yeah, walk me. You know, so. But just a little thing, what was happened in the interim who was that Roth versus United States comes out, Justice Brennan, writing the opinion and in various important, way, draws a distinction between obscenity which is unprotected and sexual expression, which is protected, and he talks about sexual protection sexual expression that has scientific or social value, etc. Etc, etc. And so when this, this was the first court to decide a case. After Roth and the question is does this fall in the obscenity line meaning not protected or does it fall on sexual expression meaning protected, and it comes before a municipal judge municipal judges? These are the guys that here, trespass cases parking, or heart parking meter cases. They don't do constitutional opinions. Was there, I don't expect you to do this, or for it to be funny. But, like, was it like the case right before was a parking ticket and the other was, you know, somebody the public drunkenness or so or a barking dog? I mean, this is an by the way, these judges, then, and now could do as many as thirty cases a day. I mean so that you would have a trial that would kind of go on a couple of days and have all these expert witnesses. This is like unheard of unheard of. So, so this is the first thing that, you know, you get this missile judge in these guys are not steeped in constitutional law period. You know this is like and really after one party. You know, after the both sides, their case, it's like within thirty seconds. They render the judgment right? There's no opinion, and they had waived Furling Getty waived a jury. I'll say waved. Why would you pick, you know, I mean these jurors are to the right of King Lear. I mean, this is San Francisco. I mean yeah. I mean, I would have thought you know, today, probably I don't know. I mean, I think today you would go with a jury just one person to be like, right. But yeah, but not in that case. And then talk about the judge because judge Clayton horn, and I'll tell you when the two ACO lawyers, and private lawyer that they had the three of them when they saw I was Clayton hard is like, whoa, whoa. This is bad news. This is just Farren Getty. You could be read a lot of poetry. Right. I mean that's because you can have a lot of time on your hands and good luck with your bookstore. But yeah, clean horn. It was infamous and he'd been taken on by the San Francisco Chronicle, they'd given him a lot of heat, but few months earlier, they were, I think four women who had been accused of shoplifting just kind of petty stuff and they can't be. Before he found them guilty. But the sentence was they had to go watch the ten commandments which was then in the theater, and watch the ten commandments write an essay and then come back to court and read the essay. And, you know, make amends what the law, of course? The the was filled with violence and had the sexual innuendo what have you. But so Clayton horn. You know there were cartoons. The San Francisco Chronicle time. So by the way, the other thing was is he was a Sunday school preacher. So not only is this fellow very conservative, but he's a son is school preacher. And Irene for the people who have read Howell, it is a filthy poem at, you know, an am by being that in a bad way. It's purely descript terms that, I mean, there's a lot of anal sex. There are, you know, about her cycle GATT homosexual motorcycle gangs, show up in it. There's a lot of dirty talking it. So, yeah, by the way, I one thing on that one of the things that is really incredible. I mean, how is it's critique of capitalism? It's a critique of culture. It's critique. Oh contemporary values and Lawrence eminence, excuse me, Allen Ginsberg out in himself. I mean really I mean this is in some respects, you can say that the modern gay rights movement in America really begins with hell because this is a man out in himself. I mean. This is a time when homosexuality is a crime. This is a time where you will not get a job if you're homosexual ibook you're just, you know, you're really an outcast and this is a time when if you're a homosexual you went to a bar that had no windows you had to knock on the door you hadn't had. No, the password, you know, and people were always worried about the police come in, in, in Boston. It's so sort of somebody to be this explicit in a poem in nineteen fifty six fifty seven was just unheard of even without the references to anal sex in the explicit references. So you know you put that together, here's a guy out in himself. Here's a guy criticizing capitalism. Here's a guy can in war. Here's a guy critic criticizing American values, and he's before a conservative Sundays will preacher, right? I mean do the math. I mean. Where's this going right? And of course, the lawyers in the case really did a spectacular job. But one in particular the guy's name was L Bendik. He was young. He was three years oughta law school. Unfortunately, we lost him a few years ago. It was a lawyer for fantasy records later and work with Creedence Clearwater. And a lot of groups and then was Lenny BRUCE'S loyal as well. But he's a few years, I guess, maybe a year out of law school, and but he writes a points in thorny, a memorandum for the judge would proved to be extremely important. The trial goes on the witnesses present their case, by the way, when the prosecution presented its case it presented the court with a copy of how in a Brown paper bag, you know, they wanted to suggest that this is so dirty that we can't even we have to put in a bag and handed. So I guess if prosecutors are going to do that. Now they're gonna use were of that, right? Because I, I. Gatty would be in favor of the environmental. Yes. Definitely definitely. So, you know, if after the case is presented to a judge Clayton horn. You know what do you expect? What first of all, he didn't even rule from the bench? That's like a major deal, and he really took it to heart. I mean he spent a lot of time, a reading all the relevant law reading a supreme court opinion. I can't imagine that it read of supreme court opinions as he'd been in law school. And he read a fair amount of literature as well. And he did something that a municipal judge. Never does. He wrote an eleven page opinion. These guys don't write opinions for one thing when they write them. There's no place to publish them, right only appellate judges court of appeals California Supreme Court. But if you're immune judge in, you ride a printed a Pitney while you can, you know, do a copy of your opinion with carbon copies to parties. But that's it. There was no place to publish it as such and in one of the most remarkable opinions ever written on free speech Clayton horn fines, the Lawrenceville and Getty, not guilty finds this cases, sexual expression and really, really says, you know, that freedom means that each of us marches to the beat of our own drummer, and it's just an incredible incredible. And I really can't do Justice until unless I. When, when I hear you talk about it, and in reading the book, I mean I choke up because it is, you know, there, there are a lot of moments where the American system, the legal system, the economic system, you know, the political system really doesn't live up to its ideals, and this is one of those cases where you, you know, on some level, it had to be killing the guy in terms of he didn't like this content. Already also I absolutely believed in the ideals, that made make it possible for it to be. I not. I'm certainly hoarded. I am sure that there was very little in it that he himself out, personally anything but highly objectionable moreover, I'm research is we did we, we couldn't find out, but this could not have been well received by his parisioners. Mean it just there's just no way you know. And so just think of it, this great moment in free speech history and more about that in a moment is made possible by a socialist and a conservative Republican. I mean, wow. You know, just but this is this is I mean, if if you think by the way, I think those are two of the forces now that are conspiring to destroy for apps get to that. Absolutely absolutely. And, and so it's really remarkable. But something also happened. Remember that when this opinion comes down, and I have to put opinion in quotes because remember, it's just this guy on a typewriter with carbon copy. Right. I'm in because there's fax machines and copying machines haven't been invented yet. So, you know, the even the electric tripe typewriter hadn't been invented, but in any event, opinion comes down, and something remarkable happened, by the way, before I get to the remarkable thing that happens that penny was holy binding for about, you know, perimeter, maybe three or four miles, you can go to the next city in prosecuted. How for the same thing you could go to a different county. You can go to a different state. You go to any fifty states. I mean, this is essential one of the things that happened, the Lenny, Bruce, right? Everywhere he spun, you could get in trouble. But what happened was first of all, when the opinion comes down? It gets national attention. I mean just really big and all of. Sudden Allen Ginsberg is popped. I mean he's just there on the national stage, but something remarkable happened. First of all, there weren't any prosecutions of, of the poem in any other jurisdictions at all. And it was the last time that a poem had been criminally prosecuted, and taken to court in America, and it was just it was as, if clean horn, written opinion for the United States Supreme court, by the way, the pinion, it would take the court another fifteen or twenty years to get to the paradigm of liberty that he had pointed out, by the way, the opinion, although it had been published in various forms incomplete forms, but it's for the first time in its complete form is published as an appendix to our book, and it really is a remarkable opinion. And, you know, if it'd been a supreme court opinion, everybody would be quoting in because there's just some just phenomenal lines in there. So we have like I said a conservative Republican judge in nineteen fifty seven. When Sunday school preacher, and a socialist erica's bookseller, and they bring to us this incredible moment in first amendment history. And by the way, so much of our history, at least as taught in colleges. In law schools is based on what set in this Precourt opinions, you know, and one of the reasons we thought important to tell the Lawrenceville and Getty story. And also the Lenny Bruce stories. These are incredible moments in American history, but they're not supreme court. So I mean you can go through, you can take all these free speech courses in never hear of Lawrence Furlan Getty or Lenny, Bruce, but, you know, to that point that this wasn't the supreme court, and, you know, in a way, it's, it's a you know, a at in the book it's, it's funny I mean you guys point out, you know that this is only binding a very small jurisdiction. I mean it helped create and it also was reflecting a movement towards a culture of free speech and a free or speech and freer expression, both in terms of lifestyle, and in terms of poetry and literature music, and film, and every. Thing, how important is that to, you know, the, the health of expression and of, you know, good marketplace of ideas, kind of expression that, you know that it's a culture, rather than you know, it's not it's not the legal. It's not the supreme court rulings that are gonna make us capable of, of free speech. Right. As it's, it's something bigger than that, or is that is that an accurate way to talk about this? You're a man after my own heart there. I'm a straight guy, so many, I don't know if you've got that anyway, you just let it go by there. Anyway, the I couldn't agree with you more. I mean first and foremost freedom in this country depends on the culture of free speech. I mean obviously the laws, extremely important. But the culture free speech is really important. I mean, give you an example Miller versus California. Obscenity is illegal alright that that opinion is still on the books. It's never been overruled. Right. What is what did the culture do? Well, they invented something called the internet. Functionally speaking once the internet, you know, came into power and want people begin to use their liberties obscenity in the culture of free speech became legal. All right. Could you quickly summarize what Miller vehicle was about? And how it what was the test for. What was it was a case that had a multi prong taste that was written by my former boss worn? Warren Berger, and it built on Ross. So it said that, while Percival obscenity isn't protected sexual expression is, but how do you determine? Well, you look at contemporary community standards. You look at a scientific value artistic value, those things that you look at. And so, you know, you look at a new, you look at the work as a whole the work taken as a whole just not just a particular isolated passage, and whether or not the work would be deemed patently offensive in light of, you know, existing community standard. It's an that it's designed to appeal Troy interest. In fact, stuff. Ex- extra Tori functioning kid. I asked though, you are you comfortable with that, as you know, and I guess nobody safe of free speech absolutists, you know, there's always times where a certain speech will be sure is criminal, but broad. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Conspiring to commit crimes or whatever. But do you buy that obscenity should be a category? Well, functionally speaking, except for a kiddie porn. It is no longer. I mean although formally speaking, it's a category. Functionally speaking, there is no longer. I mean, the internet changed the culture change that. All right. And and, and what we do with our freedoms and how we exercise them and how we bring about social change. I think in the long run is far more important than what court says, and I think this is why people like Lenny, Bruce, this is why people like Lawrenceville and Getty, why they're so incredibly important to our culture because I couldn't agree with you more, there's the culture free speech and then there's the law and sometimes it takes the law, a long time to catch up with the culture. So let's flash forward a little bit because Furling Gaddi and. In how all now is how will is probably taught in Sunday schools, or certain Sundays because it's what you know, it's I mean, it's kind of the postwar from, from an American literary point of view. It's kind of the, you know, the, the post wars version of the wasteland. I mean, just a really powerful, big poem, that shifted, that signaled not only thematically and in terms of content, but in terms of form of a whole new kind of world. It helped us, you're in a different sensibility about literature about life excetera. We don't have to worry about saying, you know, the seven dirty words. I, I was just watching. Yeah. I you know, I mean I was watching, I guess, well, it's cable. So it's not technically regulated by the FCC the content, but unlike TBS and stuff TV show say shit all the time now that's unimaginable. There's even books now that are being published with it in the title. But by the way, so into the just we have to mention it is still illegal to read Howell on broadcast radio or broadcast television, Laurence Powell and getting tied to challenge that with. Pacifica radio on the fiftieth anniversary of howl, and I mean, well, it's illegal to, to read. Molly bloom soliloquy didn't Pacific attract Adam. Well, it's, it's that is that's, that's the mail. I mean that's a fight that still needs to be fought. Fairly Getty was willing to fight it. Pacifica radio. You know, it would have bankrupt them, and they would have lost their license. And so I can't necessarily fault them. But although by the same token, if the last big cases where what when the FCC ruled against the fleeting obscenities uttered by share and Bado at awards progress. It took them how many ever to take them years to finally obey okay? Here's what here's what it's gonna cost you so, yeah, you might be able to wait them out. But I think you can't play Louis Louis on, on broadcast radio and tell you know, one of the greatest, and I suspect that a lot of the listeners know this story. But the F B I spent like eighteen months trying to find out what the lyrics were to Louis Louis to prove it was obscene, and they couldn't even do that. And it's like this is the organization that we expect to like help us crack terrorism Ryan, and they couldn't even figure out the Louie, Louie lyrics, though. Let's talk about the threats to speech now and expression because it seems like it's changed from it's no longer dirty words per se that are the. Problem. Everybody has kind of stronger comfort level with that, but would you agree that the climate for free speech is? And I, maybe it's always embattled but it's embattled now and what where the where the big threats to free speech, what for, you know, from your point of view this bay show me a time when free speech is not a posing threat is not being contested, and I'll show you a culture. That's dead. Right. I mean you always need somebody pushing the envelope. Pariente. I. And that's that's why we have the first amendment, right? I mean, if you didn't offend anybody we wouldn't need it. Right. So one of the reasons we have it, and I think, you know, I mean I couldn't agree with the late NAT handle of more when he wrote a book said, free speech for me, but not for the I mean right. So sometimes you're liberal, and you're doing liberal stuff, and okay. We're, we're for that free speech or you're conservative, and you're against it or just flip it, you know, I mean, the thing is, is that, you know, if you really subscribe to the first one and you to you. Got to be a fair broker. Right. You have to say there are things that are going to offend me that are really gonna piss me off. All right. But in the name of this principle, the name of this commitment in the name of this experiment in American democracy. I'm going to yield to I'm going to allow it. All right. And I'm not going to be, you know, hypersensitive Nellie when it comes to something that offends me. All right, if you look at the stuff that's going on campuses today. How, you know, liberal after liberal is, you know, anybody who offends them in the least way they want to prevent them from speaking. They wanna make it impossible for them to speak. They want them disinvited. I mean okay. So this is just another example of of, you know, free speech for me, but not for the for a long time conservatives, you know this was there. You know, they took the lead when it came to censorship McCarthy era sexual expression, what have you? But I mean, I think the, the greatness of James Madison's experiment in. Freedom was that? We really ask our fellow Americans first and foremost to be tolerant. Right. And, and if you don't like it. All right. If there are people who are protesting at funerals of Americans who've died and given up their life or their country, and your son of a bitch. You want to go there and protests because you've got some religious, creed or something. And if that offends you and it should offend you all right. Westboro Baptist church. All right. Then go to where they live, go to where they work go and protest go and counter protest. Right. I think that's the sort of thing. Now it doesn't mean that counter speech will at the end of the day, you know, save us. All right. I mean, homestead law like life is an experiment. Sometimes experiments fail. Right. They failed in Nazi Germany, but we've kind of committed ourselves to this experiment. And as long as we can, you know, keep the experiment going, I think that you. You know, the the, the scope of free speech, whether or not, I mean, you say, look, I'm against free speech. If it involves corporations. I don't think corporations are persons. Okay. I get it. All right. I mean, personally, I'm probably a little more liberal than I am libertarian. I happen to think that there's probably too much money spent in campaigns, and I'm not particularly thrilled about certain corporations. I'll put all of that on the record. But on the other hand, I mean we live in a capitalist culture, God damnit wake up. All right. And ACP Inc people for the ethical treatment of animals Inc. Planned Parenthood Inc. Catholic church Inc. All right. I mean, really do you want to deny constitutional protection to all of those? I mean, what's the matter with you? I mean you know, you're you're, you're the fish and you don't realize the importance of the water. So forgive me for getting a little hyper here. You know, number two, you do you worry that, you know, in citizens United came out. I think it was Keith Olbermann. To used to be a big deal, right? But he called it, our dread Scott to say is the worst supreme court. Do you worry about that? Well, first of all, first of all, that, that analogy is just beyond the pale and it does. It's does a great disservice to the whole idea of equality. Chris, I guess, and racist perations corporations have no rights, that a white man need respect. Right. A white broadcaster need respect. But let me just put it not thrilled. I'm not thrilled about money and politics. It just be very clear about. Okay. Yeah, I it kind of upsets me that the fat cats who often get to call the shots. But, but right. What kills me is that there are people liberals that want to amend the first amendment, right? And they say we wanna take all the money out of speech. Right. Really? So I want to build I want to you're running for city council, and I decided that I'm going to go to the local copy center, and I wanna have a thousand fliers printed up, and he's going to tell me money isn't speech. I can't do that. I mean really it a thing is, is that certainly it's a problem, we can debate the extent of the problem, I get that. But I've never seen a cure that isn't worse than the problem. However, exaggerated, it is. So I I'm a defender of citizens, United grudgingly, so I feel uncomfortable about it. My liberal colleague show me, the door when I start talking about that. But oh at if you ever watched the documentaries at the group, put out. Yeah, they're terrible. It just think about think about that. The government that the government is going to tell me that I cannot make a documentary critical of a presidential candidate at time of election. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is just beyond the pale and the ACO. You had it right? When they came and challenge these laws and Buckley versus plot play. Oh, Joel Gora for the American Civil Liberties union. They headed right for years there. After when they challenged these laws, and there's a great division in the ACLU now about that. I think it's unfortunate, but in fairness to the how many groups allow for this kind of dissension in the ranks without throwing you out of the party. I mean, you know, so are do you worry, though that citizens United is going to be overturned somehow or that, that, you know, the that campaign finance laws will come, you know, that there will be new ways kind of choke off the ability for both rich and poor people to participate in political speak right now? There are five proposed constitutional amendments to the first amendment, two in one way or another overrule or undermine citizen unit five five all by liberals. I mean, people whose politics by and large, I happen to share. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you guys thinking about what's going on? So do I think it will. Well, let me put this way, as long as the Roberts courts around is not going to be overruled. There's not going to be constitution. Amendment, you know, when when, you know, liberals spend millions and millions of dollars on this campaign or that campaign, they're okay with it. When conserves actually it's not the corporations, it's individuals who are wealthy who really contribute, a lot more to these various packs than do corporations, corporations, as like George Sarah coke. Tom star absolute corporations are really hesitant to do this because these sorts of things are not usually good for business. You know what I mean? But, you know, we, we live in a time when I think now it's time for liberals and libertarians to kind of step up to the plate and say, you know, we have to speak to our own. We have to say this is dangerous. You know, we will come to regret this, by the way early on in the seventies who are the people that were using the campaign finance laws. It was the Nixon administration and who were they using them against they're using against the ACLU and other political groups that were calling for the? Impeachment of Richard Nixon. All right. And so why we're was have all has everybody could come into heb liberals come to the opinion like, well, maybe we should Nixon headed. Right. And maybe as attorney general to right. No, it was wrong then it's wrong. Now, what are some other sources of, and if it's not legal rights, it's kind of cultural rights where, we're in a prolonged conversation where, you know, social media platforms are deciding, you know, and we can stipulate that they're private entities are the courts most recently ruled an case involving YouTube that YouTube is a private space. So they have extremely broad rights to determine who's content gets on there, whether it's monetize this, or they have a lot of space to kind of set up the contours of their system or their platform. Same with Facebook sandwich Twitter. We assume but both Republican conservative Republicans like Ted Cruz, and Senator Josh Holly from his Ori are calling for regulation. Some kind of fairness doctrine head as me break. And he stuck in Pelosi. Also. So. We get it with Nancy Pelosi, but I saw that video and he starts off with all these high heat. Meaning Ted Cruz all these high principles of the person, like Hello, Senator Cruz. I mean really really I mean, by the way, even worse, is that, you know, Facebook, you know, it CEO said to the government. Well, maybe we need some involvement. Maybe we need some regulation in this area. Let me put it this way. Very simple. If Facebook wants to rein in hate speech in what have you. I don't have a problem with it. I, I really don't. And I think there's a lot of stuff on Facebook that makes me feel uncomfortable. If the government tells them to do it, that's something else, by the way, a tougher issue is when government officials like a city council, nor congressman con, Representative uses Facebook and for all of their messages and communicating with their but they, they want to deny access to individuals. I think that's a closer call that may involve state action that may trigger first amendment, so that at that point, it may leave the private sphere and Covent government. I mean, that, that's tough call it. What, what do you say, though, with somebody like, say, like with Facebook and, you know, at reason we've been writing about this forever, but especially over the past year, because, you know, I mean over the past year, all of the big tech companies are the social media platforms there. CEO's CFO's, etc. Visionaries and chief have all spoken in front of congress, and they've all said, yeah, we welcome regulation will help you write it because we know our business, and it was clear from the Facebook hearing said that eight hundred year old tribunal in the Senate. They have no fucking idea. Like, you know, I think they're still using rotary phones for God's sake, but, you know, Facebook is saying, yeah, we wanna play ball. We want to or maybe they're policing hate speech. You know, a poorly defined concept. But because they know when they buy the next the next company, they buy they want it to be able to go through the FTC. They want to. Governments of small time on them. I mean, how do you how do you dysentery coursing? I would say kind of public and private. First thing I would say them as well. Maybe we should start by repealing the Communications Decency Act, right? I mean, maybe if we may you liable for the stuff that you posted, maybe you'd be a little more responsible. How do you think about what you feel about that? Okay. Are you are? You really so. Are you a section to thirty hater? No, no, no. I'm I'm trying to call up point out the hypocrisy, right? They're going to say, well, we really need the government to get involved in kind of 'cause we can't regulate this stuff, right? We can't draw the line, right? We this is our business. But we can't do it right. We want you. The government who doesn't know who'd about this business to do it. Right. And so, I'd say, like, well, if you're serious about that will, maybe we should think about repealing the communications. Decency act, maybe that would be a good place to start because maybe we put the responsibility on you, you guys dock differently. But of course, there, nobody's gonna push for that. Nobody's going to push for that. So although that's, that's what crews and Pelosi talked about all the time of that section. Two thirty of the Communications Decency Act is a is a giveaway to Facebook and Twitter, etc. That's allowed them at and briefly, it gives them immunity from what users are people, what kind of information, people put on those sites, so they're not responsible for libel or criminal activity or anything like that. That's kind of the string that the government is pulling. Well, yeah, I don't I mean, I don't think I think there's that thread, I, I don't take actually could come into fruition. I must say I am disappointed that if you write a defamatory letter and Facebook publishes it. And you're right, the same defamatory letter in the United times publish. The New York Times can be salt could be liable. But Facebook can you know I that's just. You know it's just one of them. But if you wanted to make that equal equivalent it would it be that the New York Times is not responsible for defamatory letters or I, I happen to like the internet model mean it's a wild model. It, it certainly pre there's no. I mean, if somebody says the internet doesn't aid in the bed, hate speech. I'm sorry, right. I mean they're just living on another planet. It does it does this is why freedom is risky business. And if a private entity is worried about that, and it it's users are worried about it at private entity can do something about it. All right. There's certain people that I don't want in my house, period. I and I don't want in my house, because of their political views, period. I don't want them in my house, because they're bigoted, right? It's my private business is my private home, and if these companies want to do it, I'm fine with it, but when they start asking. Government to get involved that, that worries me because it may help them in the short run. But it hurts us all the long run and the, the breath of freedom that the internet is brought us for all its problems for all its problems. And it's had a number of them, including having, you know, I feel differently about having foreign entities, particularly foreign governments use these social platforms that may be a different issue. But, but by and large, I think the freedom that it's brought us has been more helpful than not again with you talk about generations here generation Li PO part of a thing. And thinking about the people vs Lawrence Furlan, geddy, Furlan Getty was born in nineteen nineteen in World War Two. I mean, it's a war hero. He lived through a lot and he's, you know, and you can kind of see people like him, and also the, you know, after living through the depression and World War Two, which was a period of. Stark privation for an extended period of time, you know, people start to get wealthier. And they're kind of, like screw it. Like I'm living my life. I'm not. I mean you can understand why they didn't want to shut up after what they had lived through. And that's certainly true of black soldiers returning from World War, Two and being treated as second-class citizens. It helped jumpstart the civil rights movement, which was going on your FEMA women's rights, etc. Generational. Now, you see consistently polls and surveys, that younger people under the age of forty by, and large don't care that much about free speech or they think the first amendment should be a balancing act between concern for people's feelings about negative speech or hate speech, or climate of kind of top tumultuous speech, and free expression. Are you worried about that? You think that the younger? I would have been worried about the Elian Sedition Act, I would have been worried about the McCarthy era. I would boot I still worried about this nightmare of guy called Anthony Comstock, and on all of the terrible things at this guy did on, you'll read about them in a forthcoming book by my colleague Robert corn revere is still maybe year away. It's incredible book. So, yes, of course, these things concern me, and I think all the more reason, what are go ahead. You have what I was just gonna say. What, what are, what are one or a couple of steps, besides reading your book over the people vs Lawrence, Furlan geddy, which is under thirty dollars available in bookstores. Was very good. It's very, you know, and also the, the Lenny Bruce book, as well as mania and other things. But what, what are some of the things that we might do to kind of give the free speech culture? A work effort, first of all, first of all, first and foremost, don't be silent right tyranny feeds on silence. All right. If you see a wrong out there has to do with race speak up if you see a wrong out there that has to do with the environment, speak up if you see a wrong out to that has to do with free speech, speak up, you cannot just because people who share your political views or share your religious views or share, your cultural views. If you committed personnel, you cannot you simply cannot remain silent, but understand understand that if you speak up, it's going to have consequences. I mean there's a great line tell you tell your boss, which you think of him, and the truth will set you free, you know, and I think I remember I don't think I mean freedom begins in one's own personal space, who know when you're a church when you're with your colleagues when you're at a school when you're at work. When you're at the water cooler, what have you, you don't have to be obnoxious? You don't have to be kind of over the top of what have you wanna be dramatic? Okay. But but I think. First and foremost that starts their second -ly. Any amendments to the constitution but certainly the first amendment should be seen as a clear and president imminent danger. And you know, we should I just blog the last week, I guess about the fact that there's five of a proposed constitutional amendments, I mean, this is just incredible and by liberals, and it's just taken as a given like how many we're gonna have to have, like ten of these that are, you know. Well, I like if the current you know that one of the knocks on Trump is that he's destroying norms. And one of the ways he seems to be doing that. It's by conjuring fourth in progressives like also kinds of crackpots games, like packing the supreme court and getting rid of the electoral college. So maybe in the you know, in the future, like after a couple of interruptions of this supreme court ruling on one of those new amendments what you know, it'll come down. It'll be like a seventy five. Well, I, I don't know. And but you know, I mean getting back to your to your question we can also support groups. We can see at work libertarian groups, if, if liberal groups are involved in counters counter speech, more power to them if they're involved in shutting down speech, you know, the same thing if you're conservative. I'm sorry. Okay. I get you. I you know, you wanna go with citizens United, I'm fine. I'm fine with that. Okay. But if you conserve senior, listen to hear this, there is more to the first amendment, God damnit than citizens, United, right? I mean just like you know, I mean, I can't tell you how many conservative places I've been asked to go to speak, and all they want to talk about, is, you know. Is citizens United. I said, well, you know, how 'bout and then how awful Hollywood cry. Yeah. And so we do something, you know. So it's, it's, you know, you're not just a great free speech hero, because you're championing causes you happen to believe in right? I mean you really what's really impressive is when you champion principle for caused that you don't believe in. That's what takes guts. And so I, I think there's enough blame to go around, but this always been that way with the first amendment is not gonna change by the way a shoutout to Floyd Abrams. I mean this man is held true to principal. There's no doubt Floyd's liberal Floyd. If you're listening, I got this wrong, I'll retract it whatever. But I don't think I got a wrong, but, you know, he's really kind of stood up. And I think he's he is a man that deserves our respect. I mean, this is really an he's been getting a lot of blowback from the liberal community. I think it's unfortunate. But and he is he is like NAT hand off a free speech absolutists to the extent that anyone can do. Yeah. Daybreak. I mean, defending defending a lot of groups are a lot of speech that is contrary to what his kind of natural constituents. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we need more Floyd Abrams, who know in this world. I mean, I think in many respects, I was delighted that he blurb d-. We were David and I were delighted that he believed this book. You know, he's getting up there with Lawrence Brown. Kenny, I think he's still got twenty twenty years to go. But and, you know, I think we all have to have that kind of Walt Whitman if you will libertarian streak in us, we have to kind of, you know, from time to time realize the importance of a leading that individual fly his own flag, even if it's not our flag and saying, you know, we support it because this is what it means to be an American and for me, I think you to what now we need to start supporting the right to burn our own freak flyers kit. Not just not just fly them, but burn as long as they're all right. I get permission from somebody right at as long as you're not enough dry forest that. Final question about the book is dedicated I noted this and it's at spot touching and enigmatic, so I wanted to ask you about it. You dedicate the book, even David Scott dedicate, the people, the Lawrence, Furlan Getty to, to, to Susan Abby Cohen, who's pragmatic and loving ways I tolerated and encouraged are poetic passions. Can you elucidate that a little bit while you've just touched my heart? So let me let me catch my breath. It's dedicated to a my wife and I'll certainly speak for myself. Maybe it's less true for David. But I'll let him you know, take exception if he wants, but kind of dramatic person, you know, my wife's isn't very pragmatic feet on the ground kind of person spent her life, working on reproductive rights, and what have you. I think it's fair to say that there's a lot more of the poetic in David scored myself than there is in Susan, she's much more pragmatic and what have you. But, you know, reason we wrote the dedication, the reason we wrote it the way it is, is that for all our Michigan us for all our crazy passionate ways for all the things that we wanted to do that failed and just never went anywhere. And just remained on the cutting room floor. She not only put up with it, but she supported it. And we just thought you know, this is important to dedicate the book on to Subbiah Susan Abby Cohen, a woman who, that's who is just a made my life, as you know, the poetic side of my life, and the free speech mind made it possible. And so just seemed to us that it was fitting that this book, be dedicated to somebody who was a pragmatist, but who supported the. The poetic spirit. And so thank you very much for ask. Well, that's, that's a beautiful note to end on. We've been talking with or I've been talking with Ronald k l Collins a first amendment lawyer, who blogs, wet, where's the best place to find your work round? Oh, yeah. Just go to first amendment news. It's on the fire website or even just type in first amendment news. By the way, I retired from university Washington as a little in December, and my next book, give me about a year year and a half. I'm doing it alone. It's on Justice Oliver. Wendell Holmes and the civil war. Stay awhile. So he is. We've been talked with Ron Collins, he's the author co author most recently with David m SCO ver of the people vs Lawrence Furlan Getty, the fight to publish Allen, Ginsberg's howl, we're going to leave it there. Thanks so much for talking. Ron. Thanks so much for having me. It was a real delight for reason. I'm nNcholas be this has been the reason podcast. Please subscribe to us at bugle at apple at Spotify. It sound clad at reason. And if you like what you hear please leave us, notes and reviews and let us know how we're doing. Thanks for listening.
144 Degenerate Art
"Hello and welcome to misinformation a trivia podcasts for ladies and gents who have cool Trivia and sticking it to annoying teams at pub quiz. Where hosts I'M LAUREN? And I'm Julia. Hi Hi hi. Has it going across town and Things are fine. I think we have similar weather as you are. Having we've been very creative with our entertainment etc. We had yesterday. We had a bunch of people get together on Zoom and we watched all of the Lord of the rings movies. Yes and by all you mean. The extended cut director version discs. Yes twelve hours just finished like like like six hours ago. Yeah Yeah we started at eleven. Am Eastern Standard and We finished around twelve thirty. Yeah it was a lot. But Steve made stones so all is well on that so it worked out for me specifically But you know things are weird now we have to figure out stuff and I feel like again going off of you know. Teach which you know. A lot of words have been being tossed around online in one of those words. It's surreal Yeah things are very surreal. Surreal so I decided that my topic today is going to be on Dada and surrealism Wonderful yes I'm very excited about it and We shall see how it goes. So to start off we're going to be talking about Dada and surrealism as mostly as an art movement is like you know. Fine Art Movement. Although there was a lot of You Know Dada and surrealism kind of went in also into music and theater and writing and poetry in that kind of thing. But we're going to focus today on specifically Art So we'll start with data because it's the earlier like move. Data or data is was an art movement of the European Avangard in the early twentieth century with early centers in Zurich Switzerland. And also at the Cabaret Voltaire which I'll talk about in a moment and the New York Dada began around Circa Nineteen fifteen and after nineteen twenty Datta flourish in Paris. The data movement consisted of artists rejected the logic reason and asceticism of modern capitalist society instead expressing nonsense irrationality anti-bush joie protest in their work. The Art of movement spanned visual literary and sound media including collage. Sound Poetry Cup writing which I'll define later and sculpture. Data is artis expressed their discontent toward violence war. Nationalism and maintain political affinities with the radical far left So the the Word Data. Yeah and where it came from. There's no real consensus as to the origin of the movement's name. There's a common story. Is that German artists Mitchell. Who's Lombok slid a paper knife or letter opener at random into a dictionary where it landed on the word data which is a colloquial? French term for Hobbyhorse others note that it suggests the first words of a child evoking childishness and absurdity that appealed to the group still other speculates that the word may have been chosen to evoke a similar meeting or no meeting at all in any language reflecting the movement's internationalism so kind of a nonsense word. That doesn't really mean anything like a like a yacht it Oughta. Yeah Yeah exactly. Yes so as you can possibly imagine. This was not a super organized movement. it was informal. It was international with participants mostly in Europe and North America and the beginnings of Dada correspond to the outbreak of World War. One from any participants. The movement was a protest against the bourgeois nationalist and colonialist interests which many data's believed were the root cause of the war and against the cultural and intellectual conformity in art and broadly across society that corresponded to the war However the founders of data are often considered to be three people the author and poet. Hugo ball his wife poet. Emily Hennings they were the two who started Cabaret Voltaire and Romanian Artists Tristen Zara So Dada emerged from a period of artistic and literary movements like future ISM cubism and expressionism centered mainly in Italy France and Germany respectively in those years however unlike the earlier movements Datta was able to establish a broad base of support giving rise to a movement that was international in scope its adherents were based in cities all over the world including New York Zurich Berlin Paris and others and their original differences like an emphasis on literature in Zurich and an emphasis on political protests in Berlin for example avant-garde circles outside France new of prewar Parisian developments and they had seen or participated in cubist exhibitions held at galeries Dalmau in Barcelona in nineteen twelve. Galerie Der Sturm in Berlin in one thousand nine hundred and the armory show in New York in nineteen thirteen which is a very famous exhibit that Blake set off modern art as we know it today. It was a huge thing The human race in Prague in nineteen fourteen and at Deir modern coup string in Amsterdam between nineteen eleven nineteen fifteen Future ISM developed in response to the work of various artists. That future was big in Italy. Tourism had to do with like Being a an android and like this idea of expressing movement to dimensions and A lot of Italians were super into it and Dada subsequently can combine the approaches of cubism feudalism and expressionism and Patriot along with puddings and picturing the film metropolis. Yes yes that's Yeah that's I would say that's futurist for sure. Many dots believed that the reason and logic of bourgeois capitalist society had lead people into war and they expressed their rejection of that ideology artistic expression that appeared to reject logic and embrace chaos and irrationality You'll see that Dada has much more of a nihilist bent to it. It's very like well the whole world's heading down the drain. We might as well be like lose ourselves in anarchy kind of thing. Great so yeah. For example George grows later recalled that his data is art was intended as a protest quote against this world of mutual destruction. According to artist Hans Richter at data was not art it was Anti Art Dada represented the opposite of everything which art stood for where art was concerned with. Traditional Aesthetics Dada ignored ascetics if art was to appeal to sensibilities Dada was intended to offend. I will give some examples. Moment a reviewer from the American Art News at seated at the time that data philosophy is the sickest most paralyzing and most destructive thing that has ever originated from the brain of man which is like. Okay you heard history but yeah exactly like wait to see what's to come. My friend art historians have described. Data is being in large part a reaction to what many of these artists is nothing more than insane spectacle of collective homicide so dot comes out of like a lot of pain and chaos of the first World War. You know this is the first modern war where people are fighting against each other using technology and so this really affected artists across Europe and America To really like take a real like chaotic nihilists bent to that prominent Dada has published manifestos but the movement was loosely organized and there was no central hierarchy On July Fourteenth Nineteen Sixteen Hugo Ball wrote and recited the Dada Manifesto. And in one thousand. Nine Seventeen Tosari wrote a second Donald Medifast. Oh considered one of the most important data writings and it was published in nineteen eighteen. Okay it was just called the Dada Manifesto In the data's perspective modern art and culture are considered a type of fetishes ation where the object consumption including Organiz systems of thought like philosophy and morality are chosen much like a preference for cake or cherries to fill a void. So this idea of morality being something that you're born with and you're supposed to use this as like to prevailing force by which you make decisions and how you live your life. This is just an arbitrary thing that you can choose like you know what you want for dinner. Like morality is not an inherent philosophy. It's just something that you know it's fetish is D- which is like high. Tell you that such like an intellectual ization like well. There's no such thing as morality. We think it's it's so insane but that was their thing and I kind of don't blame them because a lot of crazy things were going on at the time. So the Cabaret Voltaire the Cabaret Voltaire was housed inside the holidays. Mirai bar in Zurich and it was again co-funded by poet and cabaret singer. Emmy hennings and Hugo Ball The name Cabaret Voltaire was a reference to French philosopher. Voltaire whose novel Qindeed Mock The religious and Philosophical Dogmas of the day so it was along the same lines Opening night was attended by ball to Zara. John ARP an Janko and these artists along with others like Sophie Tober Richard Hudson back and Hans Richter a started putting on performances of the Cabaret Voltaire and using art to express their disgust with the war and the interests. That inspired it. Okay so kind of early like slam poetry like yeah eight Nikki performance art. Yeah Kinda beat Nikki and Mike. Yes yes very open mic. It sounds like it would be an insufferable play insufferable place to be so for example in Cologne. There were a couple of artists who launched a controversial data exhibition in Nineteen. Twenty which focused on nonsense anti-bush. Wa sentiments so colognes. Early Spring Exhibition set up in a pub and required that the participants walk past. Urinals read lewd poetry by a woman in a communion dress though. Police close the exhibition on grounds of obscenity but it was reopened when the charges were dropped. So this is the kind of thing very performance. Arty kind of stuff Like Zurich New York City was a refuge where writers and artists from the First World War when people were Leaving their home countries soon after arriving from France and Nineteen Fifteen Marcel duchamp and Francis Pikabea American artist Man Ray and by nineteen sixteen. Yeah of them. Yeah you remember him By nineteen sixteen to three of them became the center of radical anti art activities in the US American Beatrice Wood who had been studying in France soon. Joined them along with a woman named Elsa von Freytag Lowering. Govan who I will mention later. She was Qarese I love her as you. So much of their activity centered in Alfred. Stieglitz gallery to ninety-one and the home of Walter and Louise Errands Berg. So Alfred Stieglitz Gallery to ninety-one was the home of the armory. Like that was the center of the armory show. Kind of movement New Yorkers though not particularly organized called their activities data but they did not issue manifestos the issue challenges to art and culture through publications such as the blind man wrong wrong and New York Dada which are all like magazines. I guess in which they criticized the traditionalist space for Museum of Art New York Dada lacked the disillusionment of European data and was instead driven by a sense of irony and humor so they weren't so much interested in like the political aspects of it mostly because World War. One didn't really touch the US. An in as major of a way as it did in Europe obviously So they were just kind of like hard. This is so funny like let's do something wild and weird and didn't really have a lot of the philosophical backing it in general say. I'm not saying that. None of them had like a philosophy base but this was more about theatricality rather than making a statement so also during this time do shop began exhibiting ready mades which are everyday objects found purchased and just declared art He used things such as a bottle rack and he was active in the society of independent artists. Which were all people who were kind of doing this kind of thing? In one thousand nine hundred eighteen. He submitted the now famous fountain which was a Urinal signed r much to the Society of Independent Artists Exhibition but they rejected the peace I it was an object of scorn within the arts community. The Fountain has since Become almost canonized by some as one of the most recognizable modernist works of sculpture as recent scholarship documents. The work is still controversial. Do Shop indicated in one thousand nine hundred letter to sister that a female friend was centrally involved in the conception of the work quote one of my female friends who had adopted the Pseudonym Richard. Mutt sent me a porcelain urinal as a sculpture. The please the pieces in line with the scatalogical aesthetics of do shops neighbor the Baroness Elsa von Frey. Tag Lauren. Govan So in an attempt to pay homage to the spirit of Dada performance artist named Pierre. Piano Celli made a crack in the replica of the fountain with a hammer in January of two thousand six and he also urinated on it and one thousand nine thousand three to continue the work of Duchamp. But here's the thing about fountain. Recently it has come to light that you know he wrote to assist or like oh one of my one of my girlfriends like sent me this. I think it's so funny like I'm going to submit it to the Society of independent artists. As my own. When in fact it was a woman who had created the concept of this with this work and it was probably Baroness Elsa Taylor and Govan And she was like the Dada Ist of the data like people. She had this crazy life like she was born in Germany and then she married an American guy and she moved to a farm in Oklahoma for several years and then they got divorced and then she moved to Pennsylvania and was like working in Pittsburgh for a while and then she moved to New York and she married a barren a German baron in New York and then she would like show up new to a lot of stuff and she would like cover herself in like food and like like feces and like take all these pictures and she was like absolutely out of her mind but she was like the Queen of data at the time and apparently a lot of art historians now although this has not been changed like officially. I don't know who owns the fountain now or there's been several versions of it but I think Moma owns one of them and it has not been like officially changed but a lot of prominent art historians are like no this was. Elza is like she should at least be considered a CO artist on this because it was her idea so another example of a man stealing a woman's work so Dada as a movement. It was you know everywhere but ultimately it was extremely unstable by nineteen twenty four in Paris. Datta was melding into surrealism and artists had gone onto other ideas and movements including surrealism Social realism other forms of modernism and some theorists argue. That data was actually the beginning of postmodern art So by the dawn of the Second World War many of the European dot has had emigrated to the US Some including Otto Freundlich and Walter Sterner died in death camps under Adolf Hitler who actively persecuted the kind of degenerate art that he considered Dada to represent so the movement became less. Active as postwar optimism led to a development of new movements in art and Literature. And My last thing on. Dada is musician. Frank ZAPPA was a self proclaimed Dada Ist after learning of the movement And he said in the early days I didn't even know what to call the stuff my life was made of. You can imagine my delight when I discovered that someone in a distant land had the same idea and a nice short name for it so Frank. Zappa was considered considered himself to be honest. I would agree with him So yeah let's talk about surrealism. So surrealism began around nineteen seventeen. So there was there was some overlap between surrealism and Dada and surrealism in a major way developed out of the data activities during World War. One and the most important center of the movement was Paris From the nineteen twenties onward the Movement Spread around the globe impacting the visual arts literature film and Music of many countries and languages as well as political thought and practice philosophy and social theory The word surrealism was I pointed. March nineteen seventeen by Guillaume apollinaire. And he wrote in a letter to Paul. Dare may quote. All Things considered I think in fact it is better to adopt surrealism than super naturalism. Which I I used. So during the first war Andreevich Bretagne who had trained in medicine and psychiatry served in a neurological hospital where he used Sigmund Freud's psychoanalytic method with soldiers suffering from. Shell shock back in Paris. He joined in Dada activities and started the literary journal Literature. Along with Louis Aragon and Felipe Sue. Paul They began experimenting with Automatic Writing. Which is spontaneously writing without censoring their thoughts. Just like whatever comes out of your pen just like is out there and then they would just published the writings of this. Yeah very stream of consciousness They would also publish accounts of their dreams in this magazine which was just called literature by October. Nineteen twenty four to rival. Surrealist groups had formed published a surrealist manifesto. So we've got we've got the sharks and the jets here so each each of them claim to be successors of a real revolution launched by apollinaire. So one group was led by Yvonne. Goal consisted of Pierre L. Bureau Paul Jeremy Celine Arnold Francis Macabre. Tracinda'S ARA who you would remember from the Dada he wrote the Dada. Manifesto came just beyond the and Robert delanie among others. The group led by. Andre Bretagne claimed that optimism was a better tactic for societal change than those of data as led by his Ara who are now among their rivals. Bretons group grew to include the writers and artists from various media such as Paul lowered. Benjamin Perez Max Ernst Salvador Dali. The We boondoggle man Ray Hans Arp George Malloch Keen Yonne Miro Marcel duchamp shock prepare an eaves tangy. It should be mentioned that goal. The Yvonne Goal. The Guy who started the other one He published his surrealist manifesto two weeks before Brittan published his yeah However goal and Bretagne clashed openly at one point. Literally fighting at the COMEDIENNE does Shawn's Leila's over the rights to the term surrealism. In the end. Britain won the battle through technical and numerical superiority. He just had more people on his side black. Though the quarrel over surrealism concluded with victory of Britain history of surrealism from that moment would remain marked by fractures resignations and resounding excommunications with each surrealists having their own view of the issue and goals and accepting more or less the definition laid out by Entre Brittan. So Freud's work with Free Association. Dream Analysis and the unconscious was of utmost importance to the surrealist and developing methods to liberate imagination and. They embraced idiosyncrasy. While rejecting the idea of an underlying madness as Dolly later proclaimed quote. There is only one difference between a madman and me. I am not mad. So the group aimed to revolutionize human experience in his personal cultural social and political aspects. And they wanted to free people from false rationality and restrictive customs and structures. Brittan proclaimed that the true of surrealism was long lived the social revolution and it alone to this goal at various times surrealists aligned with communism and archaism so this idea of the difference between Dada and surrealism is data was more of a political movement. That had more to do with a reaction against violence and authoritarianism. Surrealism was a little bit. More about freeing your mind so stream of consciousness allowing yourself no No inhibitions from society from your own mind from anyone else. The purest form of art is. What's going to come out of you without you even thinking about it or planning it okay? So so it's this idea of and so they were like obsessed with Freud's they're all about like just doing automatic writing and then analyzing it. What does this mean about me kind of thing? So the movement in the mid nineteen twenty s was characterized by meetings and cafes where the surrealists played collaborative drawing games discussed the theories of surrealism and developed a variety of techniques such as automatic drying as I mentioned before it sounds again insufferable. You sound like the worst people you dated this guy in college. He was the worst. You know what I'm talking about Brittan doubted that visual arts could even be useful in the surrealist movement since they appear to be less malleable and open to chance and automatic him so he liked the idea of like writing as being the purest form of getting that out of you and he didn't really see how art could be a part of that however soon more visual artists became involved include Including Georgia to curate. Max Ernst Johann Miro Francis Caveat East Tongi Salvador Dali. Louis Brunell Alberto Giacometti. Valentine Mary Oppenheim toy in and also Kensuke Yamamoto and later after the Second War Rico. Knotty so these are people from everywhere Gemini Italy Japan everywhere so Britain admired Pablo Picasso Marcel. Duchamp courted them to join the movement. they remained kind of peripheral. Pablo was not like he would like be involved in stuff like he basically invented cubism and then he was like I'm fine and then would leave so he never really like considered himself a part of any group and he was a loner. Anyway and do shop was definitely like way more of a data. He wanted to do like weird gross things and he didn't really liked join up. More writers also joined including former DOT Tristan Zara. Rene Shower and George said do in nineteen twenty five autonomous surrealist group formed in Brussels and the group including the musician. Poet and artist. Lt Mentions painter and writer Rene Magritte. Who WOULD Soon like get together with Dolly Polynesia Marcella comte Andrew Sirri They corresponded regularly with the Paris group. And in Nineteen Twenty. Seven both gaumont emigrate move to Paris and frequented bretagne circle and the artists with their roots and Dada and cubism the obstruction of Wassily Kandinsky. Expressionism and post impressionism. Also reached two older bloodlines or Proto surrealists and the so called primitive and naive arts so various much. Older artists are sometimes claimed as precursors to surrealism foremost among them are her honest Bosh. So Rhonda's Bosch was considered by the surrealist to be like the first surrealist proto surrealism He was like the first guy to do this. Also Giuseppi Arching Baldo whom Dolly called quote the father of surrealism and apart from their followers other artists to may be mentioned in this context include Joost Emma Perr For some anthropomorphic landscapes he was a early Dutch Or Flemish painter. And his landscapes are really fantastical However many critics feel of these works belong to fantastic art rather than having a significant connection with surrealism. So it's more to do with like things. Based in mythology or dreams it really wasn't like surrealism in the most like solid sense. But sure like you look at her honest Bosch and you're like wow that surreal so pro surrealists what did sign Soldo do Giorgio Archibaldo leroux quick. Was He the guy that did the the portrait's out of fruit faces and stuff? Yeah that does sound right Arkin. Baldo portrait's Yep. You're absolutely right. Yeah Georgia Archibaldo did those portraits of made up of fruit so like people. It looked like people's faces but it was like a bunch of lake fruits and vegetables and plant stuff like that. Yeah exactly so that would be. That's like fantastical art just kind of like. Hey you know what you know. What this this this Eggplant looks like a nose. I Bet I could pass a no. I mean there were always portrait's Julia. They weren't full body things anyway So let's talk about Georgia to Kericho. He's one of my favorite surrealists surrealist. So Georgia to Kericho was all about what he called metaphysical art. He was really into like the philosophy of metaphysical. Like this idea of like losing yourself getting into dreams and like being on a different level than everybody else and so he started painting these great landscapes that had really highlight and shadow. We have a Georgia to Kericho at the MAG and so there were like he would create these landscapes that look like empty city streets and then he would just kind of like he would just plop like an empty glove and a classical some classical statuary in like these really crazy looking fruits and they all have this This really like vivid color and these really harsh light and shadow and it's very unsettling to look at Because it's like you're sitting in an empty street and there's just like these weird objects around you okay. And then he just stopped so so he was he. He was important for surrealism in that he was like one of the important joining figures between the full philosophical and visual aspects of surrealism and it was described as so between one thousand nine hundred and nine hundred seventeen. He was painting in this surrealist kind of way and Una ornamented depictions style who surface would be adopted by others later so a lot of other people like Dolly would use it But after a while after nineteen seventeen he just said you know. This isn't working. I'm just GONNA paint in a classical style and then continued to paint in a classical style for the rest of his life. But what's interesting about it because we have a classical piece? S I think nine hundred twenty nine or something like that because he left the surrealist group in nineteen twenty eight and painted exclusively classical art style until he died But we have a classical like classical piece. That's just it's a still life of fruit with on a table with a like a city street background and like A drapery in the corner and while it's definitely classical style you can still see his weird like metaphysical stuff like. They're still really a lot of weird shadows and the orange look like they're kind of floating. They're not they don't seem to have any to them. So it's kind of funny because he was like surrealism. His Dad metaphysical artists dead. I'm painting classical style. But he's still couldn't ever like get away from it in any real way so it's cool He was also a writer. Who had a novel called Hebdo Morose? It presented a series of dreamscapes with an unusual use of punctuation syntax and grammar designed to create an atmosphere in frame. It's midges it. Sounds impossible to raise He also included Set Designs for the Belarus's and would create a decorative form of surrealism and he was probably the main influence for both Dolly and MMA. Greet okay before he gave it all up So in one thousand nine hundred eighty four Joan Miro Andrea Masan applied surrealism specifically to painting. So the first surrealist exhibition which was called Lapine Torso released or the lowest painters was held in Paris in nineteen twenty five and it displayed works by man. Ray Paul Klee. Miro and others and the show confirmed that surrealism had a component in the visual arts and techniques from Dada. Such as photomontage. Were you so? That's just you know you take a picture like photographs and Newspapers and you would cut them up. And it'll be a photo montage. The following year on March two thousand six hundred twenty six gallery so released opened with an exhibition by man Ray and Brittan published surrealism painting in Nineteen Twenty eight which summarize the movement to that point. Though he continued to update the work until the nineteen sixties So surrealism as a political force developed kind of unevenly around the world In some places more emphasis was on artistic practices and others on political and in other places. Still surrealist practice look to supersede both the arts and politics so they were like it's above it it's floating above us like as a missed so during the nineteen thirties. The surrealist ideas spread from Europe to North America South America Central America the Caribbean and throughout Asia as both in artistic idea and as an ideology of political change Politically surrealism was Trotskyist. Communist or anarchist. The split from data had been characterized as split between anarchists and communists with the surrealists as communists. So as I mentioned before like surrealists were more about the data. Were just like shut it all down. Sh fucking it up It should be mentioned though. That Salvador Dali supported capitalism the fascist dictatorship of Francisco Franco but cannot be said to represent a trend in surrealism. In that respect as you can imagine In fact he was considered by Bretagne and his associates to have betrayed and left surrealism. Also anti-colonial Revolutionary Writers in the negritude movement of Martinique. Which was a French colony at the time took up surrealism as a revolutionary method and a critique of European culture and a radical subjective. So it was interesting that there were groups that work using surrealism as kind of As the fuel to create political fire. Interesting This linked with other surrealists and was very important for the subsequent development of surrealism as a revolutionary practice and in one thousand nine hundred eight. Andre Brittan traveled with his wife. The painter Jacqueline Lamba to Mexico to meet Trotsky because he was staying sure as the guest of Diego Rivera's former wife Guadalupe Miranda and there. He met Frida Kahlo and saw her paintings for the first time and Brittan declared Kalo to be an innate surrealist painter so thanks so throughout the nineteen thirties surrealism continued to be more visible to the public at large it was huge in the thirty S. Like Dalian mcgary created the most widely recognized images of the Movement. Dolly joined the group in Nineteen Twenty nine and he participated in the rapid establishment of the visual style between nineteen thirty and nineteen thirty five Surrealism as a visual movement had found a method to expose psychological truth stripping ordinary objects of their normal significance to create a compelling image that was beyond ordinary formal organization in order to evoke empathy from the viewer Elsa Schiaparelli who I mentioned in my fashion episode. That's very she was episodes six. Yeah it's very early She was up considered a surrealist fashion designer. Okay Yeah and she collaborated with Dolly on the lobster. Dress that she had created so she was definitely like she was mainstream. I mean this is in the thirties for sure. So it wasn't like too weird but it was definitely surrealist. That was her. Jeff worked under that philosophy so nineteen thirty. One was a year where several surrealist painters produced works which mark turning points in their stylistic evolution so McGrath's Voice of space is an example of this process Where three large spheres representing bells hang above a landscape In another surrealist landscape from this year as East Tangiers Promontory Palace with this molten forms and liquid shapes Liquid Shapes became the trademark of Dali particularly in his persistence of memory which features the image of watches that SAG as if they were melting us. Tank we had has kind of a like a weird almost eighty s kind of reminds me like the the surface is very slick like Dolly is very small brushstrokes. That looks like it's created by a computer basically like very smooth and Tangy creates these long spindly legs. And then there's like these weird figures that aren't really humanoid or animal or anything but their three dimensional looking in have like a like a wet glistening quality to them that looks liquid so it looks like he took like droplets of water or paint or whatever and like painted them in three dimensions onto a bare landscape. It looks like a salt. Flat usually are like a desert. Wow they're very weird. I'm I mean I I like Dolly I think TANGY HAS MORE OF A. I don't know it has more of an interest to it like Dolly can. Sometimes you look at art near like all right. I got it like he's being like look at me. Look at a weird. This is and it's a little too like overly thought out and McGraw has kind of a weird Meritas cool because his later stuff especially when he was really like like settling into the surrealist stuff. is very thoughtful and beautiful and kind of weirdly. Sad like it's We went to the Agreed Museum in Brussels and they had a lot of his stuff and he was very prolific. He did a lot of drawing and printing as well as painting but Yeah his stuff is very. I don't know it has a a weird sadness to it. That is interesting that I'm not one hundred percent. Sure how that fits in but So the characteristics of the style surrealism. A combination of the depicted. The abstract the psychological came to stand for the Alien Nation which many people felt in the modern period combined with a sense of reaching more deeply into the psyche to be made whole with one's individuality. So they've got like modern society was pulling them away from being kind of primitive and so they wanted to get back to that like primitive quality so long after personal political and professional tensions fragmented the surrealist group agreed and Dolly continued to divine official program in the arts. This program reached beyond painting to encompass photography as well as can be seen from a man. Ray self-portrait who's Yousef Assam blush influenced Robert Rauschenberg collage boxes. So here's an example of like at peak surrealism. This is what an exhibition would look like. So Nine. Hundred thirty eight there was a new exposition. the international surrealist exposition at the Beaux Arts Gallery in Paris. With more than sixty artists from different countries and showed around three hundred paintings objects collages photographs and installations and the surrealists wanted to create an exhibition which in itself would be a creative act and so they called on Marcel Duchamp. Wolfgang Palin Man Ray and others to do so. So at the exhibitions entrance sell vidor Dolly placed. His rainy taxi okay. So rainy taxi wasn't old taxi. Rigged to produce a steady drizzle of water down the inside of the windows and a shark headed creature. In the driver's seat and a blonde mannequin crawling with live snails in the back. So this greeted the patrons okay. So everyone's in like full evening dress. They walk up. Here's rainy taxi. So stay also filled one side of the lobby with mannequins dressed. Barbaria surrealists K. So and also Palin deschamp designed the main hall to seem like a cave with twelve hundred coal bags suspended from the ceiling over a coal brazier with a single lightbulb. Which provided the only lighting as well as the floor covered with Like wet leaves and mud so getting into. I mean you'd think they would but who knows so. They're all in evening dress their like walking on mud and sticks and there's coal bags hanging in their faces and they were given flashlights with which to view the art and on the floor. Wolfgang Palin created a small with grasses and the aroma of roasting coffee in the air. So it was supposed to be like a multi sensory surrealist experience and of course much to the surrealists satisfaction the exhibition scandalised viewers. People were horrified. And they were like yes. We did it. They did it then. Yeah they hated it so then World War. Two shows up so World War Two graded not only general havoc for the population but of Europe but especially for the European artists and writers that opposed fascism and Nazism many important artists fled to North American relative safety in the United States. So the art community in New York City in particular was already grappling with surrealist ideas and several artists like arshile. Gorky Jackson pollock Robert Motherwell converged closely with the surrealist artists themselves albeit with some suspicion and reservations ideas concerning the unconscious and dream. Imagery were quickly embraced by the second world. War The taste of the American avant-garde Garden New York City swung decisively toward abstract expressionism with the sport of key taste makers including Peggy Guggenheim. Leo Steinberg and Clement Greenberg. However abstract expressionism itself grew directly out of the meeting of American artists with European surrealists self exile during World War Two. So it's kind of a natural progression of these artists coming over to New York and meeting up with New York artists where the surrealism kind of naturally went into abstract expressionism. Which is this idea of creating movement and expression through Abstract art so a perfect example of this is Jackson pollock so his his our work is about movement and not making decisions on where to put the art and just like literally like langer canvas on the floor and like throwing paint onto the canvas and trying to express this idea of speed and intense movement through a static two dimensional object so abstract expression became like the hottest of hot things So the early work. Many abstract expressionists Reveal the bond between aspects of both movements and the emergence of aspects of data is humor in such artists as Rauschenberg Which sheds even starker light on this kind of connection between these two and up until the emergence of pop art surrealism can be seen to have been the single most important influence on the sudden growth in American arts and even in pop art. Some of the humor manifested in surrealism can be found often. Turn to a cultural criticism. So all of these. I mean that's the thing about a lot of art movements is that they just kind of like do from one to the other and so things just kind of like emerge as they come so pop. Art Definitely has like very clear ties to surrealism abstract expressionism of course and so and it continues today. Right like these kinds of things like post. Modern thing is all built off of surrealism which was built off of data which was built off. You know like all of the stuff. Also many significant literary movements in the later half of the twentieth century were directly or indirectly influenced by surrealism known as the Post Modern Era Though there's no widely agreed on central definition of postmodernism many themes and techniques commonly identified as postmodern are nearly identical surrealism and Miami Writers From and associated with the beat generation were influenced greatly by surrealists. Such as William S burroughs Allen. Ginsberg Bob Kaufman. Carl Solomon and Gregory Corso So yeah the beat generation was definitely like influenced by the surrealists. And they've got to meet a couple of them. Wow and like Allen Ginsberg liked back down and kissed. Somebody's feet like it was just like such a thing But Yeah so. These things. Kind of continue on as they go but That was my quick and dirty Dada surrealism. They're they're so much there. Yeah there's a lot it's a lot and it can be. I mean it has its place and and a lot of interesting things came out of it but it is very weird that all of these people just decided like what's a good idea if we did like the weirdest possible shit and see if we can get away with it and it became like a thing for a long time like thirty years so my quiz today is called. Data's and Papa's a quiz on famous father's question number one. This famous doctor wrote the book on parenting called baby and childcare telling mothers you know more than you think you do. He was the first pediatrician to study. Psychoanalysis try and understand children's needs and the dynamics of a family. Who Is this famous doc? Who lived pretty long and definitely prospered question number. Two this Ed Hardy Loving Guy parlayed with his equally insufferable wife the birth of his twins and sextuplets into a rhyming reality TV show which ran for Let's say too long. Who is this former reality? Show Star Question. Three a love story for the ages or at least the Victorian period the marriage between Prince Albert and Queen Victoria produced nine children. All who made it to adulthood. What was Albert's official title which took the court seventeen years to bestow upon him the definition of which is the husband of a reigning female sovereign? Who IS HIMSELF? A prince question number four. Finding Nemo was a crazy popular. Pixar film right out of the gate featuring Marlin a nervous clown fish searching the high seas for his Tillerson Nemo what actor comedian writer and director voiced Marlin whose films include taxi driver broadcast. News drive in terms of endearment as well as voiceover work in the simpsons movies and the secret life of pets question number five the nineteen seventies. Tv Show Little House on the prairie based on the novel series of the same name by Laura Ingalls Wilder depicted a family living on a farm in Plum Creek near Walnut Grove Minnesota in the eighteen seventies eighties and nineties. The Patriarch of the family. Handsome and warm. Charles Ingalls was full of homespun wisdom in the pillar of their small farming community. What beloved actor played. Papa ingles who is also known as little. Joe Cartwright on Bonanza an Angel Jonathan Smith and Highway to Heaven Question Number. Six beloved actor and filmmaker. Tom Hanks has three sons. Can you name them here? Are some hints one. You know already. One has an appropriate name considering his obnoxious personality and the youngest has the name of one of Julius favourite precedents question number seven this Russians are very appropriate. Nickname expanded the borders of his realm but was probably plagued by mental illness and ruled Russia from fifteen. Thirty three until his death in fifteen eighty four. It is likely that his nine children suffered years of abuse at his hands in fifteen eighty one. He beat his pregnant daughter in law as punishment for wearing revealing clothing causing her to miscarry her husband. His son angrily confronted his father who had vanished his son's first two wives to convents after pronouncing them infertile incensed. The SARS struck his air on the head with his sceptre. He died a few days later as his remorseful. Father prayed by his bedside for a miracle. Who is this awful? No good very bad guy. Question Number Eight name this classic TV. Dad He was married to Marian. Father Two kids Richie. Joanie and patient father figure to his kids unique friends. Ralphie Patsy Fonzie and Chachi. Who is this happy days? Dad Number nine true or false nineteen ninety-one father of the bride starring Steve Martin and Diane. Keaton is actually a remake and question. Ten finally what is the actual premise of the nineteen eighty s? Tv Show my two DADS A gay couple adopts a baby girl and raises her in a warm loving environment where hijinks ensue when she becomes a teenager be a woman discovers that her true paternity is more complicated than what her deceased mother told her to. Holmen are both her father's thanks to a rare genetic phenomenon during conception hijinks Galore see. Two men are awarded joint custody of a girl after their mother dies. A woman for whom? Both of them competed for twelve years ago. Mix ups and trials and sue and D. after his wife dies. A man asks his best friend of twenty years a famous movie actor to move in with him to help raise. His daughter hijinks ensue. We'll give you a minute to think about it. We'll be right back with your answers. No There's so many of these questions that they're like it's on the tip of my tongue. Yeah and I also think that I need more to go to more trivial things at three things now but while we are we are woefully without trivia for a very long time. So this has been you know. It's been an issue for both of us all right here. We go okay do Donna's pop quiz on famous. But this is question number one. This famous doctor wrote the book on parenting called baby and childcare telling mothers you know more than you think you do. He was the first pediatrician to study cycle analysis to try and understand children's needs and the dynamics of family. Who Is this famous doc? Who Lived Pretty Long Indefinitely? Prospered said doctor. Benjamin spock it is doctor spock. Doctor Spock was an activist and the new left an anti Vietnam War movements during the sixties and early seventies actually like tanked his book sales for a while because he was anti Vietnam War and also at the time has books. Were criticized for propagating permissiveness and an expectation of instant gratification which allegedly led young people to join these movements which was a charge that he denied Baby and child care still sells worldwide right also for most of his life. Spock wore brooks brothers. Suits and shirts with detachable collars but at age seventy five for the first time in his life his second wife got him to try blue jeans and at age eighty four. He won third place in a rowing contest. Crossing four miles or six point four kilometers of the Sir Francis Drake Channel. Between Tortola and Norman Islands and two and a half hours. He was in life live in his best life. Okay question to this Ed Hardy. Loving Guy parlayed with his equally insufferable wife at the birth of twins and sextuplets into a rhyming reality TV show which ran for. Let's say just too long. Who is this former reality? Show Star. It's Jon and Kate plus eight and their last name just happens to be. It'll come to you. I believe in you start to like a g deserve the G. Yes it does Gosling Gosselin Goslin. Yes good job Jon Goslin. He apparently is currently a line cook. Tgi Fridays and a DJ. He was he was always going to be a DJ. I mean he was always. There was no denying it like that was his. That was his fate. There was no way also to have eight children Currently live with him fulltime and their fifteen. Yeah that's pretty. The the the sextuplets are fifteen highly of a moment. Yeah that was the thing. I hate to say that I did watch a couple of episodes during that time. But they're both pretty awful people anyway. Moving on question number three a love story for the ages or at least Victorian period the marriage between Prince Albert and Queen Victoria produce nine children all who made it to adulthood. What was Albert's official title which took the court seventeen years to bestow upon him the definition of which is the husband of a reigning female who is himself a prince boy I don't think this is right but I'm GONNA say Prince Concert. It is Prince Concert did it. Yeah His full name was Albert Francis Charles Augustus manual and he was from Germany He and Vicky were first cousins and she loved him very dearly for more on Queen. Vicki and other British Queens. Please check out our episode number thirty three called lovely long. Live the queen. It's pretty good question. Number Four. Finding Nemo was crazy popular. Pixar film right out the gate featuring Marlin a nervous clown fish searching the high seas for his titular son Nemo what actor comedian writer and director Voice Marlin whose films include taxi driver Broadcast News. Drive in terms of endearment as well as voice over work in the simpsons movie and the secret life of pets. I don't have. I don't have a clue I don't I can't I can't picture. I can't I can't imagine now so okay I don't have any let me just tell you. Yeah Okay it's it's Albert Brooks. Oh Okay Yeah. He received an Academy Award Nomination for best supporting actor for nineteen eighty-seven broadcast news and was widely praised for his performance. In the two thousand eleven film drive but not an academy award nomination and he responded in a joke on twitter quote and to the academy. You don't like me you really don't want me. Which is pretty funny. He's been like a like a character actor in like a bunch of stuff like I was. I didn't recognize the name. I looked up his face and I was like. Oh Yeah. I've seen him in a bunch of like eighties and nineties like like as a tertiary character and a ROM COM. Or like you know you. Just don't recognize him until you're like. Oh Hey that guy question number. Five the nineteen seventy S. Tv Show Little House on the prairie based on the novel series of the same name by Laura Ingalls Wilder depicted a family living on a farm in Plum Creek near Walnut Grove Minnesota in the eighteen seventies eighteen eighty s and eighteen. Ninety s the patriarch of the family. Handsome and warm. Charles Ingalls was full of Homespun wisdom and the pillar of their small farming community. What beloved actor played. Papa ingles who is also known as little. Joe Cartwright on Bonanza and Angel Jonathan Smith and Highway to Heaven Michael Landon Handsome Wonderful Machelandon He appeared on the cover of TV. Guide twenty two times second only to Lucille Ball. How `Bout Yeah he was also a writer director and producer and he died in nineteen ninety one at age. Fifty four of pancreatic cancer. He's one of the first celebrity deaths. I remember and yeah remember like everybody being very upset like our MOMS in yes. We're very upset very late and I remember yeah. My mother was very upset about Michael Landon tying. She thought he was so handsome. My mom really likes long hair on men so Michael Landon with his like his shaggy curls shoes all about okay Question Number six beloved actor and filmmaker. Tom Hanks has three sons. Can you name them here? Are some hints one. You know already. One has an appropriate name considering his obnoxious personality and the youngest has the name of one of Julius favourite presidents. Okay you've got Colin. Yeah of course on life in pieces and he's a delight low-hanging love him got shut. Yup Yup chaper. Yes then the last one. I mean if anybody knows me my favorite presidents are grover and Harry and I don't think either of those are the littlest hanks Khan and chat and I don't know I guess I'll just say Harry you're very close. It's Truman his name. Is Truman No? I didn't yeah. 'cause I'm Colin is his son from his first wife and then yes Chetan. Truman are his children with Rita Wilson. Yes and they are. They're home the hanks's our home as of this recording in California self quarantining but they are They are over the worst of covert nineteen if this Pandemic had taken the most beloved actor in the US. I think things would be really truly bad. Do you remember Twenty Sixteen win? All the celebrities died. Yes and we can't get any worse than this. No what how? How foolish foolish of US boy? Okay so being terrible things Question number seven this Russians are with a very appropriate nickname expand the borders of his realm but was probably plagued by mental illness and ruled. Russia from fifteen. Thirty three until his death in fifteen eighty. Four he did terrible things to children. struck his son on the head with his sceptre and his son died a few days later as his remorseful father prayed by his bedside for. Miracle. Which didn't happen. Who is this awful? No good very bad guy. It's even the terrible. It is Ivan the Terrible The scene of him just after he killed son is depicted in a surprisingly moving painting by a Russian artists named Ilya Palm entitled Ivan the Terrible and his son Ivan from eighteen. Hundred five question number eight named this classic. Tv Dad he was married to Marian. Father Two kids Richie and Joanie and patient father figure to his kids unique friends. Ralphie potsy Fonzie and Chachi. Who is this happy days? Dad Tom Bosley. Tomba was was Tomba's the actor. But what is the name of the Dad on happy days yet Ritchie in Marian and I guess is not Tom Mr Mr See. There's a thirty rock joke that Liz Lemon does like an impression of Marian saying his name. A does that help at all. No Howard okay. Yes it's Howard is it. How Howard? Yeah Oh Howard Howard Yeah Howard Cunningham again. As you mentioned before played by Tom Bosley Howard's occupation was running a hardware store. I don't know if you knew that I didn't also I am consistently surprised because my sister and I used to watch happy days pretty frequently on nick at night. I don't know if you remember nick at night but we watched a lot of nick at nite also. Tv Land but it is amazing. The Henry Winkler moving from like the coolest of cool guys to like. Now he's like the sweetest mench like little old Jewish man you've ever seen any went from Italian like sir. Elvis impersonator basically till like beloved American actor. I don't know I I love Henry Winkler. He's wonderful okay. Question Number Nine. True or false. Nineteen ninety-one father of the bride starring. Steve Martin and Diane. Keaton is actually a remake true true. It's a remake of the nineteen fifty film of the same name starring Spencer Tracy and Elizabeth Taylor. That father of the bride was nominated for Academy Awards for best actor in a leading role best picture and best writing for a screenplay not to be outdone. The nineteen ninety-one version opened to positive reviews and became a major box office success earning more than six times. Its budget With its success. A sequel father of the bride part two was released in nineteen ninety five. And wasn't that one about that. His wife and daughter were pregnant at the same time. Yes yeah very yeah like who so wacky now so many babies now the few times as many babies two times many before there were none now there we work for Hollywood. Oh absolutely okay and finally what was the actual premise of the nineteen eighties? Tv Show my two dads want me to read them again. Okay so I can picture seeing like promos for it and the daughter was the girl that went on to be in step by step. Okay uh-huh with her like great. You know poofy blonde hair. Eighties hair and airbags. I think it is not. It's not the last one. It's not the one that that the mom dies in so many famous moves in to help because that's very like full house and yes okay so The first one was a gay couple of a gay couple adopts a baby. It's not that one that's too early. Eighties eighties early for that kind of stuff. The second one is to whole dads are both her dad's and the yard one was The court gave custody yes to two guys. I'm GONNA say see the one where the court gave custody. Two guys you are correct to. Men are awarded joint custody of a girl after their mother dies omen for whom both of them competed for twelve years ago. The show started just like the Anna Nicole Smith. Baby thing though remember. Yes yes absolutely. It's very I think people made that like comparison when it happened. So the show starred Paul Reiser. And Greg again. I don't know who that is as Michael. And Joey the titular two dads and ran for three seasons between eighty seven and ninety the daughter Nicole's paternity is never revealed on the show but in the episode. Pop The question. Michael Joey after falling out have a DNA test to determine which of them Nicole's biological father. The test is conducted against Nicole's wishes. She's happier not her. True father is and she destroys the results before opening them Michael Joey later. Resolve their differences and reconcile. I don't know if you knew this. But the cast was rounded out by former football player. Dick Butkus manages the cafe on the building's first floor cafe which is known as close as was the second spot in the show around which the plot usually revolved the first being the family's apartment DITTO. Yeah just showed up and so many like. Oh my gosh teen. Tv shows in the ninety. What else does he do in? You Know Dick Butkus. You believe it. Yeah he was there for two seasons then skipped out on the third deadbeat deadbeat. So yeah great job. Joel Fun quiz thanks. Thanks thanks So yeah hope you all are doing well. Thanks for listening you guys we appreciate you and yeah thanks for sending. Us thanks to everyone. Who's been sending us like topic ideas and things? We definitely have them on our list. Because you know what are we doing? So and So yeah thanks so much for listening. You guys look at you next time I.
Episode 1167 - Patti Smith
"Hey folks, documentary filmmaker and self-described Anxious New Yorker John Wilson serves as writer director, cameraman producer, and narrator of the all new HBO Docu Comedy Series How to John Wilson in a uniquely hilarious Odyssey of self discovery and Cultural Observation Williams films the lives of his fellow New Yorkers while attempting to give everyday advice on relatable topics how to John Wilson and Hbo Original Streaming October Twenty third on Hbo Max also turn your great idea into a reality with squarespace squarespace makes it easier than ever to launch. Your Passion Project whether showcasing your work or selling products of any kind with beautiful templates in the ability to customize just about anything, you can easily make a beautiful website yourself, and if you do get stuck scores spaces twenty four, seven award winning customer support is there to help head to squarespace dot com slash WTN for a free trial and when you're ready to launch us the offer code wti to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Okay. All right let's do the show. All right. Let's do this. How are you? What? The fuckers? What the fuck buddies, what the Fuck Spurs what's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast WPF. Welcome to it. How's it going? What do we in month seven of this, Shit. How are you? Good Morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. How's the exercise going? How's the walk has your dog has your kid. Has You leg? How's your hand? How's your fucking head? Are you using whatever options you have at your disposal to maintain your sanity? Without hurting yourself or others. Are you trying to mind your mind? So they don't mind your mind. The, you know what a mark is. Do. You know what a mark is. Not me a mark. The intended victim of a swindler hustler or the like A mark. An object of derision scorn manipulation or the like. Example he was an easy mark. For this Trumpian Bullshit. Marks. A Nation of Mark's. Why am I bringing that up? Why am I bringing that up I? Tell you man. President alluded to leaving the country if he loses good riddance. If, he can't maintain powering continued to degrade. The nature of the rule of law as we drift further into. Authoritarianism email me the three fucking. Trump supporters who listen to me email me with your fucking delusional bullshit. About what's really happening? Don't do it. Not My fault that your mark. that. You didn't mind your mind. Or that you're so myopic. That your ability to conceptualize or. See through the veil of garbage. Is Muted. Or destroyed. Wouldn't it be beautiful if he loses and then moved to the entire operation and family to Russia where he can be protected wouldn't it be the best thing in the world if this motherfucker? lived. In, exile in Moscow. Scott allow debt gala charges hanging over his head. I with the I, I would just I love that story that's the best possible ending as the world ends. Patti Smith is on the show today Patty Fuck and Smith is on the show today. Patti Smith, are you fucking kidding me when was the last time you listen to her first three albums in a row? she's got her latest book out year the Monkey, it's now available in paperback. Might have read some of her other stuff just kids and devotion and few other books but she's here and I've been wanting to talk to her for a while. And she here I am her I resume interview. I. Was her first Zoom Call. Patti Smith was zoom virgin before me. And I'm thrilled to have. Had that honour? And you'll hear me talking to Patty I just love her what there's she's the real fucking deal. She is the one and only Patti Smith she's the raw goods man all there all the time. Right up front. fucking lover. True Beatnik legacy. That's what I was trying to get at. There's no context anymore. Really. History is dissolving everything is all the time. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. That's not true. That's an old riff on Sin Saba a bit that burrows used to do. And then. Jim Carroll. Did it in a Song I can't think like that but the context of history. Is diminished when everything happens all the time and no one is educated properly no one is really schooled in critical thinking or. Or civics. Or. Even American history and a proper way global history myself included. It's just all are all the time. Nobody knows who did wetter what anyone's importance was in the context of history, the big monsters and the do gooders nobody knows. Really how they fit in. The generation of young people. Who might say? Yeah, you know. Oh. Hitler the guy with the mustache right. That's the context but history is being diminished. And that's why on some level. I was happy to talk to patty because she comes directly from the New York. That was still being occupied by a beatnik idea that was still being occupied by artists sort of like really pushing the envelope that first wave of performance artists the first wave of punk. You know in the sort of like the beaten up city of the early Seventies. Stuff was forming things were happening. There was no internet everything was raw and dirty. Yeah, that history but she is a direct legacy. She knew borough she knew Ginsburg they both took her under her wing. She's friends with the Mapplethorpe she dated Sam Sheppard Tom Verlaine but she was air at the in the cauldron of that stuff in the seventies. When those old timers were kind of fading out a bit but still had some wisdom to share. Because I wanted to be part of the Beatnik legacy, I respected that history. I was a hero worshipper even though I didn't quite understand it. And I don't think any of those people exist anymore. The people that sort of worship these times is an Algebra Is it wanting to live in the past? Or is it honoring? The arc of history and and where you land in it. And where you come from. When I was in college I was like all up in it reading the books about the beat Knicks reading the Beatnik books reading the Beatnik? Heroes. Arthur Rambeau Baudelaire Blake Ginsburg was a great guy. A Ram, bow guy, they're all rainbow guys. Patti Smith Seromba woman. A Blake woman. That Poetic Legacy, the Poetic Journey of that particular type of poetry. Shadow your senses man. Break it all down. By Guy got some quotes here from the from these people from Rambeau. The poet therefore is truly the thief of fire. He is responsible for humanity for animals even he will have to make sure his visions can be smelled fondled listen to if what he brings back from beyond has form he gives it form. If it has none, he gives it none a- language must be found of the soul for the soul and will include everything perfume sounds colors thought. With thought. Arthur Rambo. Hero Patti Smith. Here of the beats hero of Ginsburg. I always feel like I don't get it. I. Always thought there was more there. I didn't understand it. How do I crack this fucking code? And then he kinda lighten up with it just take it in, take what you can get. The beats. The, Mark. Burrows was a great comedian and great philosopher. I think he said something very relevant. My favorite boroughs quotes apply directly to what we're living through. Like. This one from naked lunch I think the junk merchant doesn't sell his product to the consumer. He says the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client God. Bless America. Here's a direct message to the piece of Shit. President. Of the United States we have currently. Quote hustlers of the world. There is one mark you cannot beat. The Mark Inside And Quote The mark. The intended victim of a swindler hustler or the like. Desk from the dictionary. My point being there was a progression. There was a progression from the Beatnik idea through the poetry of Patty Smith through. The play writing of Sam Sheppard on into Punk Rock and burrows. Was Dug in in New York for Weil. But you know Patty broke out. There's nobody like Patti Smith but she was. Shaped and molded in the Collagen of fucking. Poetic Art. The vision of Rambo. I remember when I walked I came home from college one year. And went into the Living Batch Bookstore where my mentor Gusts Blaisdell presided. He was the. Proprietor. There was a poster on the wall for some sort of Shindig in neuro PGA. This must have been in the eighties early eighties at that Beatnik school. Yeah. I think it was the rope incident I remember seeing this poster and they're all going to be there all the living beats at that time. I knew. BURROUGHS Ginsberg. Gary Snyder may be cruelly I don't know who is there and Waldman. They're all going to be there and I was such a fucking fan boy man I said I said, Gus I said I gotta get up there. And see that because what do you want to hang around with those geriatrics four? Do Your own thing man. And Mike. But they were grazing. I knew those guys and then he made a joke I want to I didn't want to believe it was a joke. Maybe it wasn't a joke but he said, yeah, I met Kerouac once at a party in San Francisco he was sitting on the floor in the corner drunk. With vomit on his shirt talking to neal cassidy saying live like a tree Neil live like a tree. But that was Gusman is a funny motherfucker. Change my head changed my mind change my heart. But I've been to the places I've been to the graves. I've worshipped at the altars and I come out here, I am this is it. Look everybody is looking for a change of pace these days people, and now is a great time to launch that idea that you've never got off the ground and squarespace can help you turn your dream into a reality. You can easily make a beautiful website for whatever it is. You're looking to do do you want to showcase your writing or do a streaming video show or have a place to sell the things you make squares race makes it easy With. Beautiful templates created by world class designers and the ability to customize just about anything with a few clicks they also have twenty four, seven customer support. So there were always be someone there to help. And you'll never need to do a software update squarespace takes care of that for you. Everything is optimized for mobile right out of the box, and there's nothing to patch or upgrade ever squarespace empowers millions of people to turn great ideas into something real. So what are you waiting for head to squarespace DOT COM slash W. T. F for a free trial, and then you're ready to launch us the AFRICO WPF to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain that squarespace dot com. So I W F offer code. W T.F. My buddy deemed del got a big show dropping today. You got all all the fellas from ACDC over the Ark of a couple of interviews SA- big day. It's like when I interviewed Obama Dean interviewing. ACDC is a big day. The podcast is called. Let there be talk. Go. Dig On that he talked to Angus and Brian. Fill and the other guy but you know. They're back. And Dean talked to him. Sinaga Patti Smith here. Just so So, fucking excited about it. Seriously I was your first zoom I. Hope it went. Well, I. Hope she enjoyed it. Right. Her third and latest memoir called year the Monkey. It's now available in paperback wherever you get books and this is me. And Patti. Smith. Doing her I zoom. DIG It. Aw. What's Your Cat's name? Cairo. Oh look at that. It's nineteen years old and she's She's a bit in firmed and she doesn't like to be separated from me so I'm. Here if No it's great. I just had to I. had a I just had to put down a sixteen year old I'm sorry it's terrible cheese and his sister went about six months ago, and then I got i. have this other one is about four. So I got one left or she's the last of three we heads. So but she she's a little Abyssinian runt. She was born really small kicked out of the litterbox and kicked out of the mommas Botox and they didn't think she'd last very long and she's nineteen. The run through tough. That's A. I wasn't a run, but I was pretty scruffy EVA's on anything. You seem pretty tough pretty early on. Yeah. I mean I was people would say I was sickly because I was sick all the time but in the fifties. You had everything maizels chicken. Pox. Scarlet. Fever Monk Mumps. Tuberculosis, as a toddler I, mean back then you've got everything and two kinds of measles but it didn't necessarily mean that you were a cyclic trial that just meant that you were negotiating all of the things that came out out out at you. So I'm pretty good at negotiating those type of things. So you know I'm hoping that that will give me extra strength in our present situation who what situation it is Yeah. Well. You know having been through so many different kinds of illnesses I know and this one seems extremely troublesome unpredictable potentially dangerous. So I've been respecting it. I've had my is my mytalk with I. Respect You I'm seventy three I. have a little bronchiolar condition of be prudent and. Even though I'm restless in agitated I'll be prudent and I do it I'm supposed to be doing. So that's that's all I can. Good. Why like this? You said in In one of these epilogues, he said A psychic nausea that we were obliged to work off it. Work off in every way available a psychic nausea that we have. That's a that's every day. Well, the the psychic nausea that I was speaking of. Then 'cause I wrote that very early. Was Our our situation in terms of our government, right? I. Really Talking about our political situation and what we have to deal with daily but. Of course that melded with as you said. Now, we're dealing with a pandemic that makes us deal with things not only mentally but physically yeah. Now it's all combined but I. Do try to keep busy I try to keep his possible I. I've been saying use whatever option you have at your disposal to maintain your sanity without hurting yourself for others. Yes that's I. Like that that's good and also do things that benefit you i. mean it benefits many being alone in my house I'm quite messy. So it benefits May to become more disciplined to be neater to clean up after myself to to shed. Benefited May. To be. You know more domestically aware even though I didn't really want to and I don't like staying put. But I feel better. I feel like my surroundings are healthier there you know they. They give me more space to think Jato something like that. You know just we all have to do whatever we can to survive emotionally physically and. Psychologically psychologically. Yeah. I mean and I think it's been interesting for me because spending this type of time with yourself, it's not it's. I guess it's not really challenging, but it is revealing. He you know I mean in the book in some of your other work. As a poet or as an artist, you know your sort of your job part of your job is to to reflect and spend time you're meditating on life and whoever you are in relation to the world and your expression. But right now he really find out what you're made of in terms of emotional survival psychological survival. You know what's important to you and it's amazing how that list of things that you think are important to you get smaller when you spend this type of frightened time alone. You know. I say that yeah. Well, put I mean really I mean I I am used to being on my own I'm used to traveling and being on my own all over Europe or while I'm working or away from my band I like my solitude I'm not that social I'd like to ride on my own, but that's in motion. Being a stationary alone is a lot different and I found that challenging so. As you said I've had to really go into myself and get to know what I'm like in this particular. Scenario. It has been it has been challenging, but I've learned a lot. I feel healthier. I'm attending to myself I'm doing my own cooking them And trying to develop new disciplines but I find that I pay Salat talked to myself more. Why I. It seems like when I look at your life I, mean there's this idea. You know that there's some precedent for for for the type of chaos or for how bad this country. Can get into it but it it seems to me that you grew up in the fifties but you've got to New York what in the late sixties, right? Yes. So it must have been insane right? Well, I mean for me. It was exciting because I. I lived in a very rural area of south, Jersey and just to see people on the streets was exciting. You know to see all the stores to see so many bookstores so many possibilities for work that was one of the exciting things there was no work for two year old in South Jersey or Philadelphia because there was a huge shutdown of the New York shipyard in Camden. Thousand people lost their jobs and there were no real jobs for young people. So New York was mayhem. You, know it was like a Golden Hind. It was down and out city like myself at the time nineteen, sixty, seven, the city was nearly bankrupt is very cheap to live in New, York City. Then there were hundreds, it seemed to bookstores places to get a job. people on the streets were you know didn't by the there was. Things to see everywhere museums it. It was amazing to me so it didn't feel like like I watched. I saw some documentary footage of you you with with Robert but also in you know I I don't know what the interview was I think it was an Adam Curtis documentary. About New York but I always get the feeling that you know which is may be wrong that it fell chaotic and frightening but but that wasn't the sense you know I was never frightened in New York. I did I mean because I mean New York had it's dangerous areas. There are areas back. Then you just didn't go into you didn't go down all the way down Avenue C in the East village. There were certain areas that you stay out of but. I I found all of the the action exciting. Yeah. He on the streets I mean you know in in in the parks there were all these people protesting and singing and playing chess and I didn't see that where it came from it was exciting I mean I never was armed in fact, it was a lot scarier walking down a dirt road at night and passing the pig farms in South Jersey in nineteen, sixty seven than walking through these village. That's for sure why always felt that too I I always thought I was felt the safest in New York because at any point in any time you walk outside and there'd be people and Right. And there'd be people that if something went down, someone was going to step in and go whoa whoa no, you can't do that. You know someone was going to help out I really I felt I've never been harmed in New York City never never been harmed by another person and I flourished here I mean I'm. Yeah New York is much changed. It's not the New York that I knew when young but I feel very grateful to it. Seems like you're I was thinking about like you know how to frame a conversation or to think about your worker or you know how you kind of became who you are is that you're kind of like there's Your generation this sort of you know, beat Nicol Agassi's and the people that sort of came like the type. Of Environment that created the art that that your generation came from that you came from it was really the last one like that I mean I just there was such a creative kind of Nunez two things there was like risks to be taken, and there was a a sort of rock and roll slash beatnik ethic to it all and a sort of desire to push buttons even further that and it was also ernest and it seemed like a small community and you still had some of the old guys around. Well we were all. Nicely said I feel like I should just be listening to your is your your much more articulate. I've been lately but Well I think also we were all bread on rock and roll. We were all. It was a we were post work is We wanted new things. We didn't want the same We didn't want things our parents desired, which was safety security. Or their little house and you know nothing wrong with the things that they wanted a we wanted something different. I. Wanted To be free evolve that I didn't want to have things set up for me. I didn't want to be a secretary or a hairdresser or homemaker I. wanted to see what else was out there and the Nice thing about a New York at that time. There were kids from all over all over America who came like minded we were all listening to the same music. We all you know our causes were the same. Whether it was you know human rights, gay rights, civil rights, the the war in Vietnam we had. Our. Causes and our and our loved were very we're in tandem. So you felt can ship wherever you went and even the people that were more well known when I lived at the Chelsea. Any given moment it Janice Joplin or the allman brothers or Jimi Hendrix, and all these people would walk in and the only thing that separated disol- we stay at bigger rooms where they had more money to spend at the bar we all dressed the same. We. Had Similar cadence in our speech we all would get to know each other. There wasn't that it was it wasn't the cult of celebrity. The way that it is now it was more like that's such and such, and he's done this. You know ease created these songs that were singing that Israeli inspired us wasn't the people weren't taking people's pictures in asking for autographs. We all sort of lived together a community of creative people pushing the envelope. Yes. Yeah right and and and I I don't know because I'm I'm fifty i. just turned fifty seven so like A lot of this stuff for me coming into it and and being in college you know kind of being obsessed with the beats and then getting obsessed with the next generation of artists that that you were part of and the by the time I spent any time at the Chelsea. You know it was not. It was just a mythological place almost you know. That's funny because it was almost when I, when I went there and sixty nine with Robert. People were saying about it then over over because. You didn't have people like, Bob. Dylan. Net. Cedric Dylan Thomas in the the people before US had left died but the people that were still they're pretty good it was. We were more of the. Early were the rock and roll generation. Who is there own? We mean, well, Surely Clark lived there Harry Smith was there. You'd see Arthur C. Clarke Salvador Dali came in a Janice Joplin lived there for a while and Leonard Cohen all kinds of musicians there. You go into the the bar next door and say whoever was playing would be the L. Quixote but. They were just there and I lifted the air. So they were in my house. and. I remember sitting at the Bar the okay. Odi because we're working on a project with William Burroughs is William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg and Carl Solomon and Dennis Hopper. Then Sam Sheppard came in and it was just another night. Terry southern he was writing a script for William? VERSION OF A. Of a junkie a really an play Mary but the it all fell apart. But for a while just hanging out with them was pretty great. I, can't imagine I I just. Like when I read this book, you know wh the the new one that's coming out in paperback. Now you're on the monkey, it seems like You're straddling some of this stuff that burrows did you know moving between reality not reality dream not dream you having guides you know and and because like when when all this shit started to go down for some reason, I went back to burroughs to try to decode some stuff because I in my life I always feel like it's all in there somewhere that you all the answers are within burrows somewhere. You just have to figure out how to find them and sort it out. From some of the other science fiction and weirdness he believed it was all out was all out there and he believed also if you were lucky enough to have suffered scarlet fever, which votes tonight had your you had an open channel for all of these things to come from this great pool. So he what you were getting from William, he was a good portal because William got all of those things from everywhere else he believed in that. So he was the right guide for you. So. So the scarlet fever created the the the the the ability, well He. Didn't create the the ability, but it opened the portal wider in the wild boys Johnny in the wild boys of had scarlet fever. We have club Man William called the scarlet fever club and. You really believed that if you had suffered a really deep fever at a very young age, it opens your portable forever. That's interesting. Yeah. I. Went I for some reason I started to plow into. The Western lands. You know which it seemed to me that I and I think that maybe you're dealing with a bit of a to that like he had to somehow. Reckon with mortality in a very sort of practical way for himself and it seemed like you know his interpretation of the book of the dead was how he was going to go about it. Is that true? I suppose I don't I've never analyzed I. Never, thought about it. I mean to me I mean that's the kind of thing enough to talk i. just read his stuff me to like I wanted to answer somehow and like I keep going back because structurally he's a little tricky for me. But like you know when I started to see that he was dealing with all these different levels that that once the guy person dies goes through and he created characters with names for each of those levels that were very borough characters I was able to figure out. Oh, this is the journeyman you know so. You think leaper than I do I mean to me Williams sometimes reading William. Or reading certain writers is like listening to Coltrane or something. Or a saxophone solo right I never analyze it i. just I'm just there and I just go with them and I go away as far as they're gonNA, take me and by. Comeback and don't even remember where we been because. I'm so immersed in the go and. I. Think that's right. I think that's the best way to do it. I always assume like I missing something there and Now. He's got so many blanks there he wants to to fill in I. Mean you have to be the third mind with with William Right because I I remember one williams great disappointment himself was that he couldn't write a straight laced detective story. Or straight laced novel he and we talked about this all of these books if you if you think about it, they start. Very conventional. Eight. Yes. You're going on your you're gone with this old guy sitting there with his. Shotgun barrel or something you're going to go straight through some plot with him and then starts cutting things up in going into several layers of worlds and he told me, he just couldn't help it. That's that's the way his mind works in that it's his process. He would have loved to have written even a two bit detective novel that's for sure. I've read his essays. It's interesting when he writes with that type of clarity or you read the interviews but like yeah and I get it there's a magic to it. He you guys I mean you're a magician as well. There is a magic to this idea of of transcending space and time through cut ups and through I mean I get it and I like it. So you were able to spend time with burroughs early on your before you started singing or as a poet I met him in. Nineteen. Seventy I think I met him I had a big crush on him. So I was always A. United pet. He would come into the Chelsea hotel and he was so handsome and he was always so well dressed and I just had the biggest crush on him and I would try to. Know, I would talk to him and I think he was amused by me. But also he got to trust me he I. Don't know we became friends but also sometimes in the course of night, William would get extremely shoveled because the come into the Chelsea. And you had to come through the lobby and then go through the door into the bar. WOULD START OUT WITH HIS Perfect, tie in ensued to an overcoat, and then when he left, he was a bit stumbling. He'd get a bit intoxicated and I would wait and then I would get him a cab and make sure that you know he didn't leave anything behind in. Just you know be as like little. Guardian Angel Girl. Three. We just got to be friends and friends throughout. His whole life. And right to the end of his life and he was a very kind and very principled man. I know people know. Different Aspects of William? And he was many things and but to me, he was very good to May. He. Was a good teacher when my husband died he was So supportive he was kind to my children. You know I'd Love I. Loved Him why feel a lot I mean? That's one thing that comes through the writing and your life is at like the. The sort of using deep and Lasting friendships. Is Really I. It's like enviable I I mean you know when the way you talk about William and the way talk about Sam Sheppard in the book just these. This real appreciation of of friends and people you love and and and other artists that you respect. It's just it really struck me because I I don't. I don't I think things have become kind of chaotic odd and I guess people still do it. But when I look at my life I have a few friends but there's such because you the generation and the people that you guys the crew of you are so. Daunting in in in in your output in in who you were in the world I just loved that you you're not only friends but you stay together until the end I mean it's really kind of amazing and it really is what life is about at least half of it. Right? Well, you find a few people that you. Really, trust. To feel you know understand you. I was just lucky. The people that that I? was close to his young girl run remained closed till you know they're passing We all of us had worked centric relationships as well as sometimes romantic relationships, Robert Mapplethorpe therapist, my boyfriend and. But when we Had to you know transition our relationship. We had so much to salvage our. You know our mutual respect for each other of the work that we did week with each other how we trusted each other's opinion hell comforted we felt by each other. and. So there was no reason to you know tear our friendship apart we we had. We had worked very hard, but we saved it and the same Osama Osaman was my boyfriend when I was young. He was That was quite an exciting period we also work together. But we had a great. Trust and great communication and the friendship that we had in that aspects of that working relationship in that trust were way more important than. You, know a romantic relationship. If that's not what you're destined to have. There's often a even greater Joel young they are if you recognize it and work to to keep it alive and. We did yeah, it's beautiful and it's so it it sort of. Early on the only way, I could picture you at that time was by actually reading or seeing production of cowboy mouth and I was like, wow that that that seemed exhausting. We that writing. That was Sam the ACS thing. I mean it was a salmon I decided mutually that we would part. Of family what's the right thing to do but we were We were. We were sad and but. One night he said we were in the Chelsea Hotel and he stood let's write a play. Let's not Let's write a play and I. I said I. Don't know how to write a play with. Doing Zoom I don't do that and. So he said well. I'll setup scenario and. A you'd be your character and I'll be my character. So he it up a scenario and then he started writing in when it was time to talk, he would just hand me the typewriter when you're sitting on ed any would. Slide over the typewriter, and then I would write Mike Part. Would slide it back and we wrote a play and. and. It just it had. A naturalness to it, but both of us being you know lovers of language. To. It's just so like you know these reflections in this book, you know particularly. Like I don't I don't know all the books specifically, but you know I I've kind of immerse myself in the music just yesterday I listened to the the last album you did which was great and I was I listened to the first four and kind in the middle and picking up pieces here and there, and then looking at the gaps in a Mike what was going on there I do a lot of thinking. Before I talked kidding. You like stopped me in my tracks a couple of times I did in a bad way. In a good way, I was like you know especially when you were talking about William and where the different layers. I was just like again I just went with you and then you ask me a question about what you said. I was like I just I was off with you man I I wasn't analyzing what you were saying. Well. That's that's I. I can do that with Jasmine and I can do it with Jay. Exactly that's what it's all about improvisation. It's the miracle of improvisation. I can lock into that stuff you know. But like, I, think there's some part of me that. Like I guess it's not it's not about creating answers but it is sort of about about making sense you know what I mean like you know and I'm looking to him to make sense you know control needs control to survive like I'm like what is that me? You know so. But that's mean he was up. To, and it's like the whole idea was to explode the senses. I mean think with doing cups in all of the things he was doing. He was always looking for new things. William was looking for like a a new language a new after bet, you know some new aspect of the psyche, but he wasn't really looking to make sense a part of him did craved right? The straight detective story. But when he was writing, he was looking for things he was looking he was looking for something that no one. Had said before no one had seen before because that. William was what in artists did right? That makes sense. So, that Yeah Rambo's another one like at you know the the championing of Rambo that you do Jim Carroll d like there are people that do it the beats do it like that brought me to Rambo again like I was like, do I just take this stuff face value and you you you do because the images are mind blowing that's what you're looking for right. I've never been an analytical person. To speak to us I mean I was like eleven years old when I saw cubism you're the first time right art for his time cubism spoke to me at eleven years old Jackson pollock spoke to me eleven years old I can't say why I mean well, it's the time of rock and roll maybe it was you know that fifties energy but I've never really been able to. Even sought to analyze why things have spoken to me why rambault spoke to me I didn't even understand his poems when I was fifteen but they they they're beauty just captivated me is care what they meant. Now. It's team since it's not so difficult to comprehend what he's laying now. But back, then it was like a, you know reading Vitkin Stein, the world the world is everything. That is the case you know what does that mean? Well, I don't know but I'm there. You know I'm a man I don't know what you're. On right with you. I went to. I, wrote something down with it said, you know I don't know what it means. But when I'm reading, it feels like I'm thinking it. Yeah. Yeah. WHO said that me? Oh. Well, see there you go again that that is a statement and I know exactly what you're talking about. I like that. Yeah. It's just like feeding it to you know, and then you know something is something reconfigure something in your brain whether you understand it or not well, and sometimes like do we understand music? You listen to you know Hendrix, Beethoven or something, and you don't need to break down if like speaks to you or makes you weep or just makes you feel. Like you could conquer the universe. There's. A what's allies? It's it's you know yeah, you gotTa to happen. Yeah there's no I'm no I'm not graded analyzing things but when I feel. I just always assumed that I don't. Like. Understand certain things. But you know as you get older, the those things become fewer and less important. That's for fucking sure. That you know. There's another way to look at that. How great it is that they're still stuff out there we don't understand. Oh. Yes or exciting more more adventure. If we understood everything, you know than you might might get a get a little boring but I I I love when a things. ME I can look like one of the things I love to do is look like geometry books or higher math books that have or that have all kinds of diagrams in them. I don't know what it is, but it's so beautiful and the language of mathematics is so beautiful I've never been able to figure it out but I'm endlessly entertained by. Yeah. I know I I'm no good at math either. Good Yeah. What is what's going on out there? He just people is a thing they're doing out people put their car radios up to as loud as possible and open the windows and saying, Oh, well, you know people were kind of creditor editor skin they need to. They need some relief thing. I know is becoming a thing. 'CAUSE I. Sometimes see the same car circling Sink they're. Hoping they'll be discovered. Valley. I make yes. Being in the ASS. Happy that they're having a good time. What about Ginsburg? When Jimmy Ginsburg I met Allen again, right near the Chelsea hotel. And written about this in just kids I met Alan I knew who Allen Ginsberg was of course. An I St. think I learned about Allen Ginsberg through Bob. Dylan, it seems to me right. I never met him in I think probably early nineteen seventy-one or somewhere in nineteen seventy. I was going to automate and to get a sandwich and really hungry and Robert, and I had hardly any money and didn't have enough money. I just had enough money for sandwich. So I put the money in nine one to get my sandwich out and it would open. Because, they add up the price from like fifty five cents for this season mustard sandwich to sixty five cents here. So I will is like devastated 'cause I was so hungry. and. I hear his voice me and I dress like I had long. Over Code One in like Mike ski cap you know. Kind of cool look in I mean I was like twenty two or something and. This guy says, can I can I help in I I turned around Allen Ginsberg and I just I was like well and I just. This he put diamond I got my my Sandwich, and then he went and got me a cup of coffee and then he sat with me and I was like speechless I thought Jeez Allen Ginsberg is like give me food and coffee. And then he starts talking to me and then finally I, answer them we start he was talking about Camden than I am from the general area. So I started talking about well Whitman Yeah and he looked and he goes. Are you a girl. At I've already read this, but you're sincere area. It's a true story and I said, yes, at a problem, any went Oh No. No no no sorry I thought you were very pretty boy and a and I. I figure out. And so I asked him I said, well, do I have to give back the sandwich or you know you can keep the off eight year and started laughing? He said, no, it was my mistake. Just we hit it off. We kept talking about what Whitman but he had come to my rescue because he thought I was I was mistaken for a 'cause I didn't wear makeup or anything like that. I just had an Androgynous Look Zeros Yeah so That's how Allen. I met. and. It's funny 'cause I met William 'cause I was trying to pick him up and which is equally fruitless. William realized I've is trying to pick them up. He said my dear, I'm a homosexual. I don't care. That's okay. Both of these men really were such from me. Great Teachers and great friends I mean really again when when my my husband died ninety four, I, two small children had to come back to New York I was really at the lowest point in life. It was Allen who came Allen came right to my birth skew. Drew me back into working again actually talked to Bob Dylan to s Bob maybe take me on a tower helped me get work. So these men. In I met these men both in nineteen seventy. In humor circumstances but they were lifelong friends. So when when you started to do Like. It seemed like you landed on poetry like you seem like you were doing a lot of stuff and you continue to do a lot of stuff but poetry seem to be the thing was that a decision you made at some point like this is it you know I, I wanted to be an artist that's what I want hear in. The whole spectrum right and. Know I dreamed of being a painter and I always wrote and I wrote poetry since I was about fourteen year But when I first came to New York, working at a Bookstore Robert Nigh lift in a little apartment and I did little drawings but it was really a the lion's share of my energy went into poetry and. That's really how I wound up. Performing or a Recording. Later it's all poetry is the genesis and even horses. The first lines of horses is Gloria is from a poem I wrote. In Nineteen, seventy right and. And Redondo Beach. King from a poem a lot of the in the idea of. improvising. Came from the way I wrote and performed poems so I guess I've always been. You know. Poetry centric when it comes to my work even now when I write. A lot less poetry I still feel it invading my books like in in your the monkey on any of these books that I write I'll be something in all. Thank you know that's three quarters poem but oh definitely yeah there's a guy ended up like last night I don't know I was listening to a Tangerine dream you know reading the Sauce reading the rest of your book and I read over half of it already. But I've got Tangerine Dream on I'm reading your book and all of a sudden like underline and shit. Like this poetry. Yeah, there's Definitely See Parts where. You know if you just spaced it differently, they just be poetry a lot of the poetry I wrote I was younger. Love centric or relationship set trigger. Ended it's just as I got older, I've written. I don't write some much of that anymore. So I am I, find myself. Gravitating almost completely to pros. Well yeah I mean I was thinking about that like what you just said about. The. You wanted to be an artist and an artist is all of it and I, and I think it seems to me like even that this being your first zoom and I I'm I'm very excited to be part of a Patti Smith I. AM, it's not so bad I. Mean I I have to say I was a little worried about it. I thought well. I don't know I just didn't know what to expect ads. It's alright. It's fun so far it works. But like yeah, you talk about being full artist in that. You know that you did you had to do all these things whatever it was that there is this general sense of the artist and art I was talking to my buddy Samlip site last night he's a writer genius I love him. And you know it struck me that even your know the that you don't you don't zoom you don't have the headphones and you live the life of an artist but you also it seems to me in reading the books that you look to art to resolve all the fundamental questions of of existence you look to art for relief you look to art to make sense of the world you look to it when you're just hanging out having coffee that there's is almost a religiosity to to what it can do for somebody if they surrender to a wholly and fully and it seems that the life you live. That's thank you that that's really a nice thing to say. But I think it's also I. Look at when I was very young. I always looked at being. Well. One is called to be an artist. Hauling to be a poet, well, it could be anything calling to be a good be a priest for musician or maybe I? Mean it's you know one has a calling. But. I felt like it. It was my calling I've never wanted to do anything else. But I don't really not that adept to do anything else it's been a part of my life, my whole life and even when I was very ill anytime I've been very ill or at the you know the brink of despair. It always come comes to me. It always gives me refuge juror. It always gives me a voice always or or makes me feel that I have some worth in that terror that I have something to? You know to. To offer the Canon of art or offer to people are offered to the future. In it, it's just. But you know, I think of all of these things are linked together. If one has a call is the calling come from you know one can save from God from nature. From some kind of a vast energy pool and and I believe in those those things I mean hell I believe in it shifts. As I evolved but I've always connected. art from me has not been godless pursuit. So I I always I have it all within my work I connection with everything within my work but I Understood that. Being an artist. You know there's there's a certain amount of sacrifice in also. There's a certain amount of self. Orientation I mean. self-centeredness in being a the I'm not talking about being conceded I'm just talking up at. Your you become a sort of work and and one's own work centric creative of course, centric, which can be at the detriment to how much. Time or how much of yourself you give to others so there is you know it's not like it's the most benevolent of all the vocations, but it's the one I. It's the one I got. It's interesting because I feel a calling I feel like I had a calling and I felt like I had no choice but to be a standup comic I mean that was it like there was no, there was no other thing to do. So that's what I did and I do There's other things we do I do this now and but whatever but it's the ability to identify the calling and then actually have it in your brain that you have no other option. Is. Some sort of strange you know you know. Commitment that I can't explain it. But maybe it's a it's a God thing. It's spiritual thing but like there's literally when you have it and you honor. There are no other choices, and then when she gets tough, you're like why I guess I'm just fucked or else it's going to get me out of this I don't know. I have no idea. I. Also think that for myself I've been very. Lucky because luckier unlucky because I almost like I have like a like a I live on the on in constant fork in the road. And I'm always going up this road or the road because one great part of me. As a performer. Is entrenched in collaboration public, Larry. Collaboration, with UH, with with a crew with -nology with the people with with with my band, it's entirely collaborative and it's an it's very outgoing and And then the other part of May. Requires no-one. And desire has no one the writer part of it really requires no technology I mean I can get a notebook and pencil I can be off by myself I I, don't need. Anything I don't need anyone end. It's. And I keep vacillating or going back and forth to these two vocations which is. Again why this the first months of this Of Our lockdown was difficult because I had my bags packed, I was going on a world tour a whole year of touring I. Got Myself Ready for that I was my gift to my people because at. At seventy three, it's one can start questioning how long you gonna be doing this. And I was ready for that. Might whole psyche was ready for that to be out going to be more giving to be more open with people and And then suddenly. Locked down in solitude and stationary. Which? I wasn't mentally or physically prepared for. So I was quite restless. To say the least, but I've gotten into a groove. Yeah I mean I see I see the instagram stuff you seem to be kind of like at least writing daily taking pictures. But the first of months I I didn't write as much as I wished I had to. The first couple of months was really getting a new mindset reprogramming myself to suddenly being blown to being in one place not going anywhere not doing anything publicly. So it was You know I I had to retune. Seemed good. You can do these zoom calls with anybody patty like if you get used to this, you can hang out with people like this. It's really funny. Is just I just? I saw my kids did this once And they asked me to sit in it. It's like for like three minute I. This is my first. I mean I did that but this is the first all by myself doing with figuring out in pressing thing regret. I lasted about four minutes on I was like I'll be right back. There my kids and I love my kids. But it was like all this talking all these faces that I like let me out of here rea-. The other when you were talking about art and about you know like you know about writing about choosing writing, you know that writing becomes the. The primary as you get older. Is that what you're able to do? I. Mean It's it certainly in this book and and just kids as well as you know, you're able to take your experience with people you love and people you respect and then you know as they pass on, you know you integrate them into the universe of your own creativity through. How you represent them in these books you know they become characters that you know none of us knew like I didn't know sandy at all you know but like I had when I when I went and looked him up and I saw the work, he did I saw the records he produced a you know I hear what you had to say but you're sort of interpreting of they're moving on of their passing. It creates another world for their existence kind of it's a beautiful thing. But it seems like you know that you are doing a lot of reckoning with this loss business. You know well, I have my whole life it's just seems to be something that. You know in especially in the past well, I just had a string of losses career might my pianist Robert Mapplethorpe my brother, my husband, my parents. And just so many friends and Salmon Sandy in one year was. was quite a blow, but I know the I. Think. Robert asked me to write just kids I would've never written that book ever. I never wanted to re write non fiction I just wanted write fiction and poetry Robert asked me to write it the day before he died I promised I would and it took me over ten years to write it. And But what I was trying to do is give. People, Give Give People Robert as a human being you know with his ideo sink. Christie's in you know his work ethic the way out. Funny. He was hell loving. He was or I think he wanted to be. Remembered. More spectrum but he also knew he could trust me really Auburn in San was alive when I when I wrote 'em train, Sam, Samson entering. He's in the M train is himself and he's in 'em train as my sort of like Guardian Angel Kau poke writer and. He he he he loved this He. He saw himself in just kids any new that I presented him as as we were in. That's what he said to me I said, we're you mad was were you okay with what I wrote and he said was just like it was. I like giving people I like sharing my people. With with with everyone right now, writing about my brother very few people knew my brother my brother was an extraordinary. Person He died when he was forty two and I just want people to know him. And I I don't know I I don't. I don't even know what to say. I feel like you. You put a mirror up to million I'm thinking Oh should I be doing that or will it but it is. Of course you should be doing it. It's like I was sort of amazed because I recently lost somebody that that I loved a tragically in quickly and reckoning with loss I've never had to do it This is the first time like you know my parents are still fucking alive you know and. You know and this woman was you know my my girlfriend and she was in my house and I never had to to deal with that. That the trauma, the tragedy, and then the absence living with the absence. So what do you do with them? So I felt. You know especially reading this and reading parts of just kids that you know it seems that you are integrating. Absence into you know what life is I mean it's it's it's as there was nothing unusual. About loss and about death, it's the most common thing in the world, but it's like. It's really a lot to deal with, but it's perfectly human. Well. I I also like. I. A lot of my relationships, a lot of my friendships would be long distance in. We wouldn't see each other for a while so. You know but I always felt the move. May I always felt Sam with me when I travelled If I didn't see him for a couple of months, I knew him for half the century I knew that he was in my corner he. Was In his end inuit it doesn't feel any different I do long to see him. As I mean, he is such a beautiful man in was so protective in I just his presence I miss his physical presence more than I could have imagined but but I also feel You know I'm sure I'll write something else again in he'll be back again. I bring him back. You know he's I 'cause he'll always be with me. Yeah I I don't see why he shouldn't be with me running, of course. Yeah. And letting you have been together for a million years now, right? Yes. I met Lenny. Not long after I met Sam Lenny and and sandy were very good friends as well. We all knew each other. Sandy was like Sandy Perlstein right is that Perlman Perlman? Yeah. Perlman was the manager and producer of booster called for a lot of records. Yes and he wrote a lot of their songs. He wrote a lot of their lyrics in the concepts. You know a lot of those songs. Astronomy is star some of the Lyric Siro career vehicle in some of the other ones. But the night I met Sandy. Was My first poetry reading and I was with Sam and Lenny did a little guitar with may played some feedback, poems and And Sandy Pearlman came up to me and. told me I should be front and abandoned. Asked me if I wanted to comment audition to sing to be the other singer with the work on what became voiced for Colt. They were called stock forest at the time. And I just thought. That was I thought it was really funny. I up until I? Said I said, this guy said the funniest thing demand? He said I don't think that's so funny. You could do that. You Know Endo Yeah. But that was nineteen February seventy one I wasn't even thinking about doing anything like that. I wanted to you know I I think I had my first poetry book and you know I was very poetry was my vocation that I was magnifying never even occurred. Down the same marks poetry project. Though I was. Yeah. It's weird. The convergence of like you know that. And the punk rock scenes all SORTA like swirling around, and then it just blows up. The weird thing is about about you is I I'm listening to you. You. Know from from horses and the first three records it's like you're fucking Rockstar I mean that's shit holds up and like you know whatever you're doing in the wake with the poetry or whatever. There is. When you see on those songs or You perform here in l. a couple years ago at the small club. I was a member when Johnny Depp came up and I think Joe Perry was there does it could show. You were great. Rock hard. But like you're like, you know when you when I, you do that or I was those records like this is yours a singular force in rock and roll I mean I mean I'm sure the poetry is great. But was there a certain amount of relief when you started Do- rock and roll? Oh absolutely I mean that's that's why it happened because I got bored really quickly. Just poems I had so much energy. I. Had really seventy eight speed natural energy. Just. A wired kid and. I couldn't really be contained easily a I found that You know it. It happened it started slow, but started happening and I started improvising over three chords. Yeah. I could just spew language and plus I I'd like the fizzy physicality of it and But I was still thinking of it as poetry. I wasn't thinking. You know. That I was like a rock and roll singer, I didn't have any. You know a visions of me singing I was performer. I still think of myself as a performer. When it evolved to rock and roll, and we were recording in going on the road. ECORSE. You Know I love Rock Roll, rock and roll saved my life when I was a kid You know being part of the evolution of rock and roll was helped form me and I wanted to be liked best. You know if I was going to be a minor rock and roll star I, was gonNA. Be a good one. I don't mean even talented. I just made I would put all of my everything into being like you know. All win the real deal. Yeah. Because you know who wants to be a mediocre star nobody. A. Lot of them around though. and. So when you like who were I mean you have pretty specific rock heroes though don't you? That kind of compelled. I. Love I love Jim Morrison. Love Dillon of course, Bob Dylan was very important Mentor. But One of the people that I learned so much from. Was Johnny winner really well because I got a job. For A while with Steve. Paul St Paul Wounded to sign me up to is record He opened up a record company in nineteen seventy one called blue sky records. Any you give me a record contract a in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty one in. But he wanted me to he wanted to form me. And I said, any offered me a lot of money and I I said the ain't doing that I actually talked to William burroughs about that I said offered me like huge amount of money but it's not something i WanNa do when he said you know you gotTa Keep Your name clean. You got it never do anything you know isn't right for you. Keep your name, clean. Wow so I but I needed I wanted to shift I need wanted a different job. So I didn't take that but I took a different job from him sort of shadowing Johnny. When they went they had to go to England because he's colorblind. and. They needed somebody with to go. Walk. Cross the streets look at traffic lights and roam around with him and Johnny liked me Johnny Chelsea Hotel for Awhile and Robert. Design some is closed so So I started going to summit Johnny's concerts will he wasn't like anybody that I would thought I would like. I was I was Jimi Hendrix. All Jimi Hendrix all the time. Yeah. Johnny Live, many times, and I have to say nineteen seventy, seventy, one, seventy, two I, never saw. Anybody like him. Anyone is fierce. Is Him he he would leap the first person I ever saw that leapt into the people. Leap into the people with leap right off the stage. He commanded that pulse stage and I the energy that that guy had and his body language was nothing I ever saw. It was like a wizard. Yeah. Yeah. Was My favorite guy I mean it wasn't even like my kinda music but his. physicality and I learned a lot from him. He's a he's a he's a monster guitar player I mean he's always always was. You know he was almost bewigged. There was like he's like bewitched I learned a lot from him. I learned a lot of course. You know I modeled myself a little after Bob Dylan and so I I was wasn't a embarrassed about you know. Modeling Myself, after. These guys. Model themselves after Ramblin Jack Elliot for years. But I you know I just. Got What I was myself but I got certain things from these people like certain things I know from. From Jimi Hendrix got certain things from Lata. LEGNA. You're. So I just took the things from masters because I had no training. I had no musical training I didn't but I. Didn't Replicate them. I just absorbed what I could learn from. Gorgeous. Yeah. Because like I can't like it become seamless and you know you take the magic of the the the the heroes, and you you integrate them into your sense of self confidence and then you kind of bloom into your own thing. You know you don't you don't become them but you know it's definitely magic I like the way you characterized johnny that you just saw that he was a vessel. What it was, but it was in there you know. And also, he was fearless I saw Jim Morrison Jim. Morrison, he was awesome but an, he'd like push things as far as they could but he always seemed afraid interesting is very paranoid style performer he seemed. Because he had, you could feel I don't know what his own demons whatever He. Feared I was young crawl I saw him in nineteen, sixty, eight or something or sixty sets But what I got from him wasn't the same thing I got from Johnny. Right. You know. He had. You know I'm sure he sometimes he might have felt like God Jim Morrison, but you also felt a self loathing or something he had a strange right? he'd lack self. Love I think. And I don't I didn't. I can't say that I understood him but his style didn't appeal to me right right now I it him and I thought. I didn't feel intimidated by his presence, right? Well, it seems like with Johnny and even I can see that with you that. You're all you're all in and you're you're not afraid of the vulnerability of being all in like this. You know it's GonNa be awkward for some you but this, this is what it is. Right Well I just I just think. All. The thing that I. Wanted. For our band for myself was just that we were. Ourselves. Right. You know at however flawed I don't even at sometimes when I was thought word or sometimes when it seemed like I was like an acted like an asshole it did it didn't matter it was all I hate to use the word don't think it's just A. We didn't have any art artifice, right? Yup and I, if I sensed artifice or because of repetition You know. A lack of complete engage. Schmidt than I would like Mentally Count Council myself about that 'cause I didn't want that I just wanted When I just thought of another great performance who lot more late what a great performer Ya'll Mike. He was he was awesome performer he he was another one that Ad. You could feel him. It was like shamanistic. You could feel him entered right now. Hey. Yeah. Just beautiful energy via. It's all about enter. Sure. What about some of your contemporaries? What about what would you think? iggy well, he was. He was Iggy came out before he was he says he came in Sixty S. I guess former yeah. Yeah. I mean I guess? Yeah. He's a younger and then Louis to older to you're younger than those guys but they were around right. They left their mark on the city iggy just started younger and I. was as he started in the sixties after the MC five year I never even saw iggy before until later in life you know he wasn't He wasn't on my radar. Because I get. Your husband Iggy used to hang around their house or something right? Well, I mean, even I mean my husband I didn't know about. From South Jersey I didn't even hear about. The velvet underground there know like. I came to New York and had to learn a lot about our present culture, right? I didn't know anything about the MC Five Ryan Night I saw Fred I just saw him as a as the guy. Across the crowded room. That was that in. And how your kids good. My kids are they're they're great? May My daughter does works Tar Tireless. You know for Climate Change Awareness is a nonprofit and she's a musician and. She writes and my son is Great Guitar Player in as a family other they're awesome. My kids they're just they they. They magnified they're the best of their father and I see myself somewhat in the I love my kids. Gray's sometimes it. We all play on stage together and the. I love my kids 'cause they're always my kids. Yeah I mean my son has come up. Once we were playing I. Don't I think we in Spain or something there was like thirty thousand people at a festival and my son was playing. Lead Guitar that night? And we run. Some Song I can't remember I'm singing the chorus and then there was a breakdown in my son is gone. Mom Mom. MOM And I'm. Saying. I'm having a little rough time. He was having a little rough time physically said, I. Don't know what kind of Sola be doing but just do the best I can and nice to. Just. Do the best you can jack, but we're like talking. He's always my son you know. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Played Great, but he's A. You know I remember also. We were touring with Bob. Dylan some reporter. S to what's it like having your mom is your mom he goes. She's my mom. Makes dinner in Questions, DIPLO's and. That is the best dancer of all. I don't WanNa be anything else, but but mom to my kids what seems like he had a lot of time there where you could really focus for awhile right? Well, they were quite young when they lost their father but. six, thousand, twelve, but. But when their father was alive, we were always with each other every day 'cause Fred night both left public life, and we lived very simply, and we were always together in a we So. We have a lot to remember. We all that time together. But also they they just my daughter plays piano and she sounds like Fred well and my son. He's playing guitar and just. Sometimes the faces he makes or or the tones that he draws, which are very unique. You were very Fred and I've done stage in actually almost burst into tears here and my son play. It's so much would sound just like his father and he wouldn't even be conscious of while I bet you some of that stuff is just in there just carried on lutely is. It's It's been proven to me that. Way You know there's some many ways that we We become we are you know from the people that nurture us and from. Experience in what we study and all of the the the influences that we have. But also. Blood this lead can be a gift to. Yeah for sure. Yeah I I definitely believe that's true. and. Own. Another Jersey Guy. Bruce. Do you are you friends with Bruce? Well I mean I know him I. Mean I don't have. We're not like we don't hanging out or anything. Other. We're happy to see each other but. Also. Not I'm not really musician. I don't really have musicians lifestyle or hang out with you know musicians even when lenient together You know relate to bums that. Yeah. Writer bumps that. Friends. Hanging at and to deal and the Dylan thing. As he is he present in your life by? Lead me Bob was president my life. No. One would hear about because he is the most private man he can imagine but no bob is not in my life except to in my. The way that he is he's been my life since I was. Fifteen years old and. I've had time when I've spent gotten to talk to him a lot or sit and listen to play in in years not you know it's I. Don't I don't have any established relationship with them. He knows I'm in his corner. So right how did the like? I'm sure you've told the story about I. Don't know I just watched it. How did the The the the Nobel Prize Gig come up the Nobel Prize. Job came because. They asked me to. It was the Nobel people I I play Sweden and actually. Sort of you know. Well, like Sweden's. The Nobel people asked if I would sing for who ever won the literary lower you know who won for prize for literature and that year there was some talk it might be more Kami. At so I thought I would sing this song wing because of the wind. Up Bird Chronicle. Well it wasn't. It turned out to be Bob Dylan and then I thought Oh my Gosh I. Singing. I'm going to be singing. For Bob by I can't sing one of my songs, I should say one of his. Chose hard rain hard gonNA fall because I felt even though it was early song encompasses everything his poetry, his his humanity, his sense of the environment his sense of you know all of the things that he believed in that we all believe in our in that song and. I thought it was the perfect You know. Yes. Great. To introduce him. And of course. I. Had this terrible. Episode of strange white out nerves but One of the greatest moments of life performing I've ever seen in my life I. It's it is so personal. It's so odd the way it kind of I know it must have been just horrible for you. But as was I thought I would die yet and I I I can I really I don't have any. When it comes to perform I don't mind screwing up anything I screw up belied, but it's my own screw up. Yeah but Another person's work especially but Dylan who is meant so much to me. Right my whole. It was it was a it was terrible but but the self correction of it was beautiful because it was ultimately inactive respect and you know but it that moment where you make the decision to be like, wait a minute like every time I watched it I'm like Oh my God as a performer I it almost makes me cry because it's Because it's so honest though it's so honest and you know I don't know I thought it was great and everybody it seem like everybody kind of woke up and realized that they were seeing a human. It was kind of an amazing moment. Well it all. It seemed universally to stir people. That way and I'm grateful for that because at the moment. With the orchestra behind me. Giant. These cameras because they were global cameras going all over the world you know massive cameras and looking down the king and Queen. Of Sweden and and all of the Noble Lawrenson in all of this expectation. and. Then suddenly to just freeze. Froze. I mean a song that I knew backwards and forwards just suddenly escaped me. I didn't know what to do. I've never. I've had these things happen to me on stage right than laughs and make joe run say well, like we'll do this and then talk to the people I've had paranoid moments where I had to actually talk myself down with the people and say I don't know what's wrong with me but I feel really self conscious and people are always with you and I know that people most of the time people are with you if if they come, they are going to be with you right It was just The whistle humiliating and so frightening but. It turned out that. It made people. People seem to identify it because everybody has these moments where their their worst moments of their life everybody has these moments gets imports just. Had to be the poster poster girl for the s moment of your life but I. I don't. If. I feel about it now like I feel about. Everything if it's if it's served anybody than it's still gay. Even. Bob That says you got serve someone yet. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's seemed to serve people say anything about it not to me directly but I I know from the family that. Everyone seemed very happy. With with everything. Well it's great talking to you I wanted you know I was GonNa talk more about some of this this line. The the evidence of an awareness of the relative value of insignificant things like it seems that. You know that like I see some of your photographs to and I have a lot of little things that that really become personal magic objects sort of like you know triggers of of of emotion nostalgia and and place and time love that appreciation of that I like the way you look at them. Oh. Thank you mark. That's so nice. Well, I guess it's We've we've done Mosey on but I had this was really fun. Great. Wish sometimes a little more. But I'm just not my you know I've become very mentally abstract in these months but really funded talk no I thought it was great and I love talking to you and you know who is always telling me that he wanted us to talk to you know Berry. Skills you're all the way he's my one of my favorite people he is really I've been blessed to have him as a as A crew member in a friend and I don't know if you know this but you know he has my husband's motorcycle a really I didn't know this. My husband had A. a Harley. sportster and. Barry. I just had it in. No No. No none of us ride a motorcycle in was you know you can't leave a motorcycle for years? Not Right doing any you know and berries dreamlike found out was to have a Harley sports sports story. And he is really. Is, really taken. His loved that Barry also to say reminds me of my late brother. Todd so. I always say he gets the toddy award Barry, my brother was the head of our crew of when. When we performed in the seventies. And Berry became the head of our crew when I returned to performing in the nineties and He is really shepherded that that that motorcycle he goes everywhere in it he named at Sonic after France. Great. It's sleep. He had it painted on Oh. Wow that's great I didn't know that like I know him from doing Conan a as a comic and he he'll. He'll. He'll work guitars occasionally and we'll talk about this and that but he's a great guy but he always used to say like look talk to Patti you guys gotTa Talk. So he he's he's been the one he keeps saying you have to do this. And he talked about being in one's corner. He is in your corner. That's for sure. Well. I just wanted to acknowledge that that He's a great guy and that you know he's always championing this I'm glad it happened. Me Too we'll do it again sometime because there's a million things we could talk can sit helpfully personnel you know like maybe we'll get back to some sense of normal come to New York with the microphones and we'll do it. Although I forgot the I mean you know because I'm the any interviews I've done in the past six or seven months have been on television I haven't anybody. So actually I almost forgot that we're not. Just talking. So it's Yeah. Yeah. No. Great I'm so happy that you we got involved in zoom thing. And and it's working out. All right. We'll take care of yourself. I officially Zoom Zoom you've been zoomed Patti Smith. Thanks Mark Talk to you again soon? I love her so much. Patty Smith the book is your the Monkey and everything she's ever done. Goal is in those first three or four record Gangnam. Damn. Right out of the gate, just fucking mind blowing and remember documentary filmmaker and self-described Anxious New Yorker. John. Wilson serves as writer director, cameraman producer, and narrator of the all new HBO Docu Comedy, Series How. To John Wilson in a uniquely hilarious Odyssey of self discovery and Cultural Observation Wilson films the lives of his fellow New Yorkers while attempting to give every day by some relatable topics. How to with John Wilson an HBO Original Streaming October twenty third on Hbo Max. Live like a tree Neil. Deemed del Rey's got A. On. Let there be talked today. And now all places. Now. I'll do it. Oh. Him. Old. In. Monkey The Find A. Cat Angels.