18 Episode results for "Cambridge Politica"

What happens if online advertising is just a big, fat bubble?

Marketplace Tech with Molly Wood

09:35 min | 4 months ago

What happens if online advertising is just a big, fat bubble?

"This marketplace podcast to support it by Destination Medical Center located in the heart of Rochester Minnesota destination. Medical Center is a public private economic development initiative offering an inspiring hub for growth and innovation learn more online at DMC got. And by the d'amore mckim School of business at Northeastern University a world class business school preparing leaders to thrive in the digital economy. Further, your potential through experience driven learning and a combination of skills. No other business school can provide combine technology analytics and creative problem solving with experienced driven learning. It's business education reimagined. Take your next step at northeastern dot edu slash be more. That's northeastern dot edu slash be more. Online. Advertising is the business model of the Internet. But what if it's just a big fat bubble from American public media? This is marketplace tech I'm molly would. So. Big Tech monopolies are in the news this week the Department of Justice sued Google over how it maintains its search dominance and it search dominance is the key to its business model, which is that it makes eighty percent of its revenue from digital advertising facebook by the makes ninety, nine percent of its revenue from advertising and the profitability of targeted ads is also a big reason why tech companies are constantly collecting so much data about us and there's a multibillion dollar ad tech industry that exists because all of this makes so much money. But what these ads didn't actually work all that. Well, Tim Wong is a former public policy executive Google where he worked on artificial intelligence and machine learning and he's of the new book subprime attention crisis I. Think this is an interesting important distinction right? which is it's not necessarily to make the argument that advertising never works categorically right? We have examples of it working. The question is whether or not the market as a whole really lives up to the promises that it's made and the promises made is that data driven. Automated form of what's known as programmatic advertising is a kind of advertising that's way better than billboards or magazines or the kind of madman style of advertising and I think ultimately, it may be that we are exactly where we were decades ago. Right? which is we actually don't know which half of the money spent advertising works in which one is wasted. We just very difficult to tell. Is, there an awareness of this? I mean I know that you know after for example, Cambridge Politica, there was a lot of conversation about how there are lots of promises related to micro targeting and that it just might not be. Realistic. Like do advertisers are they starting to understand this? Well, I, think there's a lot of willful blindness in the Advertising Space you know so this book that I just wrote, it opens on a really strange experience that I had going to a marketing conference where a professor laid out all of the evidence right? You know sixty percent of people never see ads ad blocking up all around the world it was just dead space the. Advertisers kind of refuse to engage with it, and you know it's one of the things I've been thinking a lot about because it's similar to patterns that we see and other market bubbles right where there's these deep structural problems with the industry. But a lot of the people involved either don't want to hear it or they don't believe it I mean listen I'm very familiar with the idea of the belief that technology must be working even. All. Evidence to the contrary. But I do want to ask you about targeting specifically because it seems like there's a lot of technical reasons it doesn't work. But what about this idea that there's a massive amount of data collection that ads can be so specific and personalized that you literally cannot resist them are you saying that's also not true Yeah I. Mean You brought up Cambridge Analytical earlier? I mean there's a fascinating report that just came out from the UK privacy regulator that was basically their research to say look there's all of this kind of. Metric advertising does it make a difference and the conclusion? There was no there actually was not any significant difference and there's two reasons for that. One of them is a lot of researchers find that a lot of the data being used as faulty and messy and doesn't work and I think the other one is whether or not. This data actually helps you to target a message better is really unclear. There's a great researcher by the name of Allesandro. Who's been doing some work on if you have targeted ads versus non targeted ads, does it actually make a difference and conclusion is it does but really only by a small margin, much less than you think. Could it also expose the fact that a lot of these companies no longer want the data for advertising like they want it for machine learning. Yeah I. think that's ultimately you know I think one of the great questions and responses I've had to the book is people say so why have we built this enormous surveillance infrastructure? This thing just doesn't work I. Think people have traditionally thought. Oh, well, it's because Mark Zuckerberg wants to build a mind control ray that's his advertising system. You know the reality is that it has been collected for other reasons and for sure I think things like the promise of machine learning is is one of the reasons that people collect this data. What Can. Be Done. Do you think I mean? This is a big complicated technology question. You've got companies spending a ton of money and companies that rely on this for their whole business model. Like what could solutions even look like? One of my worries about this is that again, if you study the history of market bubbles, a lot of what we see is very reminiscent right to the say the subprime mortgage crisis of two, thousand, seven, two, thousand, eight, and there is a momentum here in the problem with bubbles is that. While, it may look great in two, thousand, seven, I think we were saying how great economy is doing. At some point they pop and I think the human costs will be great. It's really not just a matter of whether or not you know Mark Zuckerberg has less. Fewer billion dollars right I think you gotta think about all the media that's relying on this ecosystem that journalism that relies on it and many other places that advertising touches online, and so I I tend to believe in the idea that we have to find ways of deflating this bubble and so I'm really interested in kind of the ability to both spread the public word about some of the problems in this marketplace. But also I think there's room for regulation I. think There's room to enforce transparency in the marketplace to try to make sure that you know expectations about this match up with reality. There's been just as a regulatory matter there been a lot of questions about banning targeted advertising. Should that happen? Yeah I I do think. So and I think in some ways you know in may be the thing that pops the bubble right because for the longest time, advertisers have been basically holding to the position that we need all this data order to do our business to target our ads and what we're seeing as things. GDP are the European privacy law and CPA to California privacy law rollout is in many cases the market just keep chugging along even though our advertisers have a lot less access to data and I do think that that kind of realization that all this data might actually not have been very. Meaningful might actually 'cause you know sort of expectations or perceptions about how great this stuff is to kind of crash to Earth, and so you think these privacy laws have these two effects. One of them is to protect privacy, which of course is important but I think the other side of it is actually in May of like you know strip the veil off this market that I think has been kinda shrouded for so long Tim. Wong is the author of the new book subprime attention crisis. How big a bubble are we talking here? Digital advertisers will spend over one hundred and forty billion dollars in the US in twenty twenty. And now for some related links speaking of Intelligence and Google trying to find possibly other revenue streams, the interceptor reported Wednesday that the company has a contract with customs and Border Protection. To help power that agencies artificial intelligence work including what's being called a virtual wall between the US and Mexico that uses drones, sensors, and surveillance to find people trying to enter the country without authorization. This is, of course, definitely going to upset some people working at Google who protested another government contract in two thousand, eighteen called project Mabon that was shelved will be keeping an eye on that as for that antitrust lawsuit against Google ad week has a piece on how programmatic advertisers should probably be prepared for the possibility of that case, expanding beyond its current focus on search ads in. Fact despite the fact that almost every state has some kind of investigation into Google's business practices, just eleven states have joined. The DOJ's lawsuit more will likely pile on over time and there has been a lot of talk about how Google actually controls pretty much every part of what's known as the AD. Stack, and that is rich soil to till for a busy state attorney, General's office. Oh and also qube shutdown about which I think enough has been said. Molly would and that's marketplace tech. This is a PM this marketplace podcast to support it by transfer. Wise. The smart new way to send and receive money internationally transfer Weiss gives you the real exchange rate every time you send money abroad you can even get an account that holds up to fifty four currencies at once and convert between them anytime join over eight million customers in more than eighty countries who are already saving. Try them out for free at transfer wise dot com slash marketplace, or download the APP.

Google Tim Wong Mark Zuckerberg d'amore mckim School of busine Destination Medical Center Rochester Minnesota destinatio Medical Center DMC DOJ Cambridge Politica California US facebook Northeastern University Molly
The Changing Big Tech Conversation

Pro Rata

09:22 min | 1 year ago

The Changing Big Tech Conversation

"Yeah. Hello, and welcome to the pro rata podcast podcast that takes ten minutes to get you smarter faster on the Clinton of tech business and politics filling in for Dan for MAC to whom I granted a vacation, I'm axios, editor in chief nNcholas Johnston on today's show, the tech strategy behind Trump's reelection campaign kickoff, and Silicon Valley CEOs with the highest ratings from their employees, but first big Tex changing tone, the tech industry has long been accustomed to seizing the spotlight by unveiling big groundbreaking innovations. But now it's consumed by new debate full of doubts and questions about its wares, for example last week was the annual Recode code conference in Scottsdale. Arizona, one of the industry's highest profile gatherings in years, past tech executives announce their latest gadget or service and big stellar, Tori unveilings, but this year, not a single product was launched instead, speakers from big tech companies were pressed on what they were doing to fight hate misinformation. It was a big shift in years past, and it was happening because the conversation around tickets chain. Ching. Because more people are participating these dialogues have long been dominated by the companies themselves while the rest of us just served as odd consumers, hungry to snap up the latest gadget or app, that's all changing now with concerns over privacy breaches techs effect on democracy in the impact of smartphones. Politicians pundits. Researchers aren't willing to see the floor to see os and tech visionaries anymore. And the new conversation includes privacy advocates regulators elected officials and consumer groups, the bottom line once tech took such a central role in our lives and culture, it was inevitable that it would spark broader debate and sharper criticism in fifteen seconds. We'll go deeper on this with Scott Rosenberg, the axios technology, managing editor. But I this access chief technology. Correspondent in Afri shares breaking news and analysis on the most consequential companies players tech from the valley to DC subscribe to get smarter faster at sign-up dot axios dot com. And now back to the podcast. Joining us from San Francisco via the magic of technology is managing editor for technology. Scott rosenberg. You've been a steam technology journalist down the valley for many years, though. I don't want to date you give us a sense of changing sort of mood out there in relation to big tech, you know, for the last, at least decade EDNA tech industry leaders and kind of rank and file everyone is kind of used to being seen as kind of the wizards in the room, the magicians, the people who make everything possible that you do with your phone, and that mood has obviously shifted, in, really the last beginning around two thousand sixteen then I think accelerating over the last year people are now, more kind of getting the receiving end of a ton of criticism and it's hard. It's a hard adjustment. Psychologically for people in the industry. And it's also sort of a. Tactical and PR issue, obviously, for the companies involved, which driving that is it just, you know, is it as simple, as oh, Facebook in the two thousand sixteen election or they're all sorts of things piling into this. It's too big things. One is obviously there's a lot of substance here. Right from Cambridge politica to a lot of other privacy concerns, and to people who are upset about things that happened during two thousand sixteen election, relating to social media, so you have some real grievances, and some genuine issues, there the other piece of it, which is maybe less widely understood is that the tech industry works in long-term cycles. And we're kind of pale and of cycles of innovation. Right. I phone came out in two thousand seven we now, you know, have smartphones everywhere there isn't a clear sense of what's coming next. In the meantime, the companies that are profiting from the phone revolution are doing continuing to do, extremely well. But there is. Kind of another clear act on the horizon. And so that whole magician act thing is kind of like feeling a little old right now. What's your next trick or what have you done for us lately? Right. Thanks for the phone. What's next what sparked my interest in this? And I think got us to sort of write about it this morning, actually say 'em, was sort of how it manifest itself, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the Recode code conference that was out in Arizona, this begetting, which is usually triumphant and nature. But I wasn't so much. This is the kind of premier gathering of a lot of tech leadership. And a lot of pundits, a lot of insiders, it's been going on since the early two thousands. It was Walt Maas Burg and Karras we honor of the Wall Street Journal originally. And then they took it with themselves when they went off on their own to Recode. And so this conference is still sort of a great place to get the pulse of the industry, and it's also been a great place for a lot of companies to introduce new products, and new innovations and this year, free are. Axios. Chief tech correspondent went down there and was kind of a mazed that there wasn't a single new product law. Yeah. And instead, it was really a focal point for this kind of criticism. We've been talking about. And that's just kind of a reality that I think everyone in the industry is now realizing that they can't avoid they have to base it. I think we have a great clip of INA down there, questioning the CO of YouTube, sort of, I think imperfectly encapsulates that point you started off with an apology to that. I'll g q community, but then you also said that you were involved in that you think you to made the right call a lot of people don't really feel like that's an apology, and are concerned that YouTube flags LGBT positive content, just for being LGBT as sometimes, you know, sensitive, and yet slurs or allowed and I'm curious. Are you really sorry for anything to Q community? Or are you just sorry that they were offended Scott looking ahead? It's just gonna get better. Getting worse. I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. I think when you have a wave like this, you look in the past to sort of quivalent, I guess the nearest equivalent I can think of is what happened to Microsoft in the nineties, when it sort of went from the company that brought you win those ninety five that got you onto the internet to the company who you know, that was going to, like, suck the air out of the room for all of its rivals, and would have a monopoly on the internet. So the government went after Microsoft was an antitrust suit, and that took years to kind of evolve and, and kind of Microsoft went from this posture of great hostility, and defiance to sort of humbled kind of will do whatever we have to position after a few years of going through the mill and I think Google Facebook, Amazon and apple are all kind of in a similar position. Now they've tried to put themselves in a less immediately defying. Can't position. But I think inside the companies, there's still a lot of why is this happening? You don't deserve this feeling and they're going to, you know, it's gonna take a while for them to kind of reorient themselves except that, you know, they're now the top of the heap in terms of power and money in American business, and they're going to be a target. They're going to be a punching bag scrutiny will only grow. And I guess, you know, even in a twenty twenty election with candidates going for the recap of tech. We've got a ways there. They've got a ways to go to get through this ringer. It's gonna be years, Scott. Thank you so much for joining us. Totally welcome. It's been fun. My final two after this. There's more news out there than ever before. But these days, it's harder than ever to find it and to know what to trust axios. AM takes the effort of getting smart by synthesizing the ten stories that will drive the day and telling you, I they matter subscribe at sign up dot axios dot com. And now back to the program podcast. And now it's time for my final two. I Donald Trump kicked off his reelection campaign in Orlando Florida last night. We love being Orlando. Thank you. Thank you, or Landau. What a turn out. There were two big reasons to start in the sunshine state. My colleague Jonathan swan reports number one, they knew politically, they'd get a big turnout and a huge spillover crowd, and that's important because reason number to the Trump campaign's vacuuming up an extraordinary amount of voter data at its rallies, when you register for a ticket, you handover basic info, then when you show up and get your tickets scan you tell the campaign more about your intensity and propensity to show up and vote. These rallies, have huge value for Trump to digital operation ongoing fundraising, and ultimately for the get out the vote operation second glass door has released its annual employee choice awards list of top one hundred CEO's, as ranked by their employees, even with all the controversy surrounding tech twenty seven taxi ios made the list. But there were some interesting moves Facebook's, Mark Zuckerberg Bill from sixteen number fifty five, but Apple's Tim cook rose from ninety six to sixty nine microseconds, Ella pulled very well at number six and Google. Sundar Pichai came in at forty six and at number one VM ware. CO Pat Gelsinger, and we're done might thanks to producer Tim show, vers have great national Garfield the cat day, they'll be another guest host tomorrow, and Dan, we back into sat on the pro rata podcast next week.

Scott Rosenberg Facebook Donald Trump Microsoft Arizona Dan Google Apple Scottsdale YouTube managing editor Orlando Florida editor in chief Sundar Pichai Tori unveilings Landau San Francisco Clinton Trump
Facebook, protests and a whole lot more

Make Me Smart with Kai and Molly

14:27 min | 9 months ago

Facebook, protests and a whole lot more

"Hello everyone. It's molly. Would this is the make me smart daily where Kai try our darndest to make today make sense and just a tiny bit. We wish that Daniel. The engineer really was gonNA drive. Can you talk today? We Oh my God. We should totally figure out a way to get that onto the program bus right because that would. That would that would. That would be better. That would be better, so look. It's Monday after a tough couple of three weekends which days rather sorry and we're just going to acknowledge that upfront right because I won't speak for all y'all, but I will I believe speak from his. What am I self stuff super hard right now. Because things are just, it's just aren't. Just. TART! But what we do on the daily show, is a news item apiece and then something to lift our spirits, and then we're Outta your hair till tomorrow fifteen minutes boom done. Go boom done and avenue rule. That, if any of you would like to adopt speaking of how everything is just, it's so what I've noticed. Is that everybody We all say. How are you to each other? Hey, how you doing and like a good middle of the country great. nope. Not, true. Don't know why I do that. Every single time and so I could have started saying just don't be prepared I'm just going to start saying yes. How you doing. I am. How are you? Yes, exactly in existence. Because Mazar. okay so. What do you WanNa? Do? Yes, let's begin to pick them. They're related. I feel like we both have a lot to say about your item. So why don't we start there? Okay. My item is and I picked it honestly just because I knew you would. If I didn't get there first this morning at nine o'clock this morning. It was like Oh this one this one. Yeah come on, come on. Really Berg is the warmer whatever the hell. The saying so from the New York Times and many other publications facebook employees are staging virtual walkouts to protest Mark Zuckerberg, and what he is or is not doing about the president of the United States and his posts on Social Media Network and I think it's really interesting because they're fairly vocal from my reading of it. They're reasonably senior. They're not you know in the C. Suite, but people have been there for a while, and they are saying a really troubling things about this company that they work for. And and I just think that's of note. That's all I mean. We've seen his walkouts before right with Google and and employs not happy with what a company is doing. This is the first time in. My knowledge that facebook has done it right. It's very very rare for facebook employees to. speak out about the company at all like they really are. Usually in lockstep, it's a pretty. It's a pretty they people who work at facebook. I think for a long time have really considered themselves mission driven and have increasingly felt very under attack like they felt like a lot of the attack, even out of Cambridge Politica were very unfair, and so it is surprising to see the New York Times quoted to employs as saying like if they don't reverse this decision. We're GONNA quit. There were a whole bunch of tweets yesterday like at least a dozen employees tweeting. Disagree with this. I don't know. What will come Amazon? Trump's right? Nothing's GonNa Change. Sucker burg has the board in his pocket. He controls all the voting shares. Nothing's going to change until you decide to. But what are you? What what make you of this? I mean I think it is. It's an interesting. Reflection of the moment and how serious it is! You know. That All the conversations I've had all weekend long abou the protests. Were you know it's basically all the same question which is? IS ANYTHING GOING TO CHANGE? You know it's easy to get into like I. Think People get in this mindset of like well? Look this happened in the sixty S. Did things change. You know some things did some things didn't? And, so I to me. It says that despite all of the. Various scandals that facebook has gone through that haven't necessarily shaken the faith. Of the people who work there. It is telling and I think maybe heartening. That, did you have you watched the Trevor Noah? Video from a couple of days ago, I mean I think it was like. In minutes I think it was his actual show. Maybe, but it was on his twitter feed. It is remarkable like it's really just a remarkable. It's just him extemporaneously talking about this moment, and what it all means and how we get here and how we get to this sort of this. Point where people have just boiled over where they've said. That this? Is Incontrovertible, like one of the things he said was like what he found remarkable. Is that everyone's reaction almost unilaterally to seeing that video of that policeman with his neck on judge blades, and or his knee on his neck was liking. viscerally, this is wrong. And so kind of like a lot of these social networks, said look when it's public health and misinformation about public health. It's not it's not up for debate. It's not okay. So these employees inside facebook to say when the president you know essentially incites further racial division in this country after what was incontrovertibly in appalling act. That's not okay. And I think that's pretty. That's pretty powerful. Hope something changes. So do I, but I'm not holding out a whole lot. Hope what I say. Okay. Let's me what about you. I bride I thought this was really interesting. Is Actually some what? Somewhat related like. We've been talking on the tech. Show a lot about information. And how like depending on where you got your news about this event, you might literally have a completely different viewpoint than the person next to you about what happened, and there's the way that newspapers do it. National News Local News, CNN God health all MSNBC. It's like. It's whatever, but there was this incredible tweet. It was a re post actually from facebook and this guy was like my. You know my friend's friend posted. The summary of what's really going on in Minneapolis and it's so clear, and it's just as beautiful post about how what's happening in Minneapolis that. Neighbors are guarding the spot where George Floyd died. Neighbors are painting over this area with murals and chocolate and flowers. Neighbors are coming together to Bring each other food and give each other water and blocking off side streets, so that vulnerable residential areas won't be overrun by police and protests that the organizing pop-up community food drives all over the city, turning abandoned corporate buildings into food shelves, and so on and so forth, and it goes on and it really. Is Lovely I felt like. Over the past couple over the past twenty hours, even I was overwhelmed by scenes of violence police, instigating violence looting. This stuff that you saw on the news and I thought. It was really valuable to see especially in this moment right now when they're. Sincerely terrifying talk about escalation sincerely. Seemed really good to me to point that out. That most of what is happening in Oakland most of what is happening. Is. People doing like car parades peaceful marching. Taking care of each other. Like people want change and. Tanks aren't. GonNa fix anything. And it is, it is community in that spirit which will mend things. Did did did you WANNA go to your second item or are we going to let that lie? The second item is related to the excoriate, extremely terrible escalation of rhetoric. And I I reported tweet today. By Congress. Yes, I did. Like. Because the Senator Tom Cotton of Arizona called for no quarter, Noah insurrectionist anarchist writers of a I'm sorry, Arkansas or a are. Arkansas it. My my AP. Bosses are going to be annoyed with me. Darn, it Arkansas Said basically we should bring in whatever military force necessary to restore order, and said quote, no quarter for insurrectionist anarchist writers, looters quarter of course being in the Pantheon of historical phrases, historical phrase that means don't take them captive. Kill Them. And cotton. It has to be said here is a veteran and knows what that phrase means. Pretty sure. Sure. Yep. So as long as we're, we're doing that thing now. Where twitter is GonNa, you know flag stuff. Did you get anything back and twitter. They put a little thing on. Oh God. No, you never get any I mean, maybe they have you know? I mean they might but. Evans NO HEAVENS, no! De Escalation works escalation. His war games. And I. Don't think anybody would want us to be there. All right. Ramon Yup. Let's okay happy played. Daniel is in charge Daniel by the way in response to US threatening to put him on the air wrote to us and said. The worst you to other words. We love you ready. We would never do that deal. Goodness. Let me. Just say here by the way if you hear the wind, if your door slamming dogs and people walking around outside. That's my fam. I'm in my house, so there you go. That's what's going on just so we know. relatable. Yeah, for sure for sure. Okay, so I'm go first 'cause 'cause. 'CAUSE Just picking up on the weekend of space, stuff and and space and. Rocket thing, which of course I watched it was cool in his awesome every day before I go to bed. through my head to see what's going on before you know, call it a day. And one of the sites I check is cut key Dot Org K. Ott, Katie Dot Org Jason Cocky. WHO's been fine hypertext products for you know whatever twenty five years twenty years, maybe actually probably fifteen, anyway, one of the things that I saw the in the night which he's space Geek as well. He posted this video. which kind of blew me away? It's it's a sky stabilize rotation of the Earth, which is to say usually when you see a shot of the sky at night, or during the day the ground is stabilized, and the and the sky moves around what he did in this what the photographer did! This one was stabilized. The Sky and the earth moves around, and we'll put it on our show page and I. Just encourage you to check it out on. A little bit freaked out because it's the earth moving around the Scott, which kind of you know we're all in relative motion is not like. It's not like I'm at a bar. Nicole! Yeah, it's super cool, and it takes you watch this. You would for sure throat. This is amazing. And it goes tormented, holy cow. Okay, that's I just think that's it yeah. I think it's really important to note that it is today. Every day has an official day. Today is say something, Nice Day. Oh. Is this a like a yes, Yep? Yeah, you're a great guy. I'm glad we get to do. Together. Might I like you so much? It's so much fun to Jelly every day. It's just lovely. It's a good time to hang out and just like share ideas and also disguise. Click the HASHTAG CLICK ON. Say Something Nice Day. If you find yourself on twitter today because I. Know You need it. And it's a great. Great. Love is all you need. The End. Zone. Is. Still, so true all right? That is our daily show. For today. Good. Luck everybody stay safe. I don't know we're I duNno, we'll be back. We'll be back tomorrow. Tomorrow we'RE GOING WE'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA talk about how we're GonNa talk about racial and economic inequality in this country how the pandemic has exacerbated it how you know rage about the pandemic is contributing to what we're seeing all over America and the world. Frankly right now I mean. The world is protesting along with us. But it's going to be a really good job. Yeah and So two things, number one is I would like to know whether y'all think that this is moment of change whether this is one of those inflection, points hinge points as my colleague. Ms would likes to say. So. Send us that at make me smarter marketplace Dot Org. Also for Wednesday on what he wanted to Wednesday questions Put them in the subject line. Put that in the subject line and we'll We'll see we can get. There yeah. We did. Produce directed by Sam Anderson, our digital producer is Tony Wagner? Our senior producer is jody. Becker Ben Heck. There's video producer Ethan? Parents is video intern. Thanks writer-producer Erica Phillips. Daniel Ramirez as I believe we mentioned was in charge today. Our theme music was composed by mentality. Daniel the executive director of on demand is. The senior, Vice President and general manager is Deborah Clark. Anything you want to save Daniel. Just jump in here. We have to get that. We have to get that talk back to me on the program there's got to be. There's gotta be a way. There's always like there's like a little cute dog. They're like, can you? Just they make thing to this little cute dog because? He keeps. He's got too much that broadening. Turned yeah. SWEET BY EVERYBODY ALL RIGHT BYE!

facebook Daniel Ramirez twitter New York Times United States president Vice President and general man producer Kai engineer Arkansas Minneapolis Trevor Noah Google Ben Heck MSNBC George Floyd Oakland Berg
Democracy Now! 2020-01-07 Tuesday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:02 min | 1 year ago

Democracy Now! 2020-01-07 Tuesday

"From New York is democracy. Now all of Your interactions your credit cards web searches locations flakes all collected in real time into a trillion dollar. A year industry industry. Real game change was Cambridge only scare campaign and the brexit campaign. They started auden using information. New details are emerging about how the shadowy data firm Cambridge analytica worked to manipulate right voters across the globe from the two thousand sixteen election in the United States to the brexit campaign will look at the Oscar shortlist documentary entry the great hat and speak to Cambridge Analytical Whistle Blower Brittany Kaiser who's begun releasing a trove of internal company documents. Powerful companies in the world is because last data surpassed foil in value. The most valuable asset on earth will also speak to the award winning directors at the Great Hack Trahan Nujaine and current armor as well as Emma Bryant author of the forthcoming up propaganda machine inside Cambridge Analytica and the digital influence industry. All that and more coming up. Welcome to democracy now democracy now DOT ORG the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman former White House. National Security Adviser John Bolton has said he would be willing to testify at president. Trump's impeachment trial in the Senate if he's subpoenaed Bolton statement increases the pressure on Senate Majority Leader Mitch. McConnell and other Republicans is to agree to call witnesses to trump's senate trial McConnell has previously said. He will not call witnesses that he will coordinate the trial with the White House House and that he himself is not an impartial. Juror protesters rallied in the Hart Senate office building as part of a swarm the Senate protest. I demanding the Senate hold the trial now. For President trump the Pentagon and the trump administration have issued confusing and and at times contradictory messages on the United States position on Iraq and Iran amidst an escalation of global tensions following the United States assassination. The Nation of the Iranian commander Qassams to the money on Monday the US command in Baghdad issued a memo to the Iraqi government that appear to suggest the united aided states would withdraw US forces from the country. The memo came after the Iraqi parliament's vote to expel all US military forces from Iraq. But but only hours after the memo was released Defense Secretary Mark Asper said the. US was not withdrawing troops from Iraq. Prompting a wave of questions Sion's and confusion that ended only after the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley admitted to reporters reset the memo was a poorly worded draft and that it was released by mistake. The Pentagon also contradicted president trump Monday saying the united it states would not attack Iranian cultural sites as trump said he would and acknowledged that attacking cultural sites without military justification. Haitian is a war crime over the weekend. President trump threatened to target fifty two locations in Iran including cultural sites if Iran retaliates it's against the US trump said the number fifty two which for Iran's taking a fifty two hostages more than forty years ago. The United United States also denied a visa to Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif who is slated to address the United Nations Security Council in New York later this week week denying him. A visa is a violation of a nineteen forty seven United States United Nations agreement European powers or continuing Kim Jung to call for a de-escalation of the tensions. This is French foreign affairs. Minister Jean Yves Le. Let's to assure a glove. The situation mission is serious. Very serious there is a sequence of West Glacier which is becoming very worrying if it continues can lead to a situation of conflicts. Yes yes. It's true is Kenny full mobile easy. And that's why we need to mobilise all of our efforts in order to start this very disturbing process which can lead us to confess to which can control. Meanwhile they're reports that dozens of people were killed in Iran during a stampede. At the funeral procession for General Neural Qassem Suleimani in his home town in the southeastern city of Carmen over a million people in Iran and Iraq have poured into the streets to mourn his death. The New York Times is reporting. Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Khomeini told officials in a meeting at Iran's National Security Council that he wants the retaliation creation for pseudomonas assassination to be a direct attack on. US interests carried out by Iranian forces. Iranian proxies and more details have emerged merged about how the border patrol detained and questioned as many as two hundred Iranian Americans at the US. Canada border over the weekend. The New York your times reports some of those detained were questioned for hours including being interrogated about their opinions on the United States and the situation and with Iran to front running twenty twenty Democratic presidential candidates former Vice President Joe Biden and Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. There's are sharply disagreeing about the assassination of the Iranian commander Qasim Sulamani Senator Sanders has condemned. The assassination has introduced Lisa legislation along with California Congress member Ro Khanna that would block funding for any military action in or against Iran without Congressional Authorization Biden meanwhile has tried to use the increasing tensions to argue that his past foreign policy experience would make him the best president. In the event the United States goes to war with Iran in more election news former Democratic presidential candidate. Who Leon Castro says? He's endorsing Massachusetts -Chusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren for president. There's one candidate icy unafraid to fight like hell to make sure America's promise be there for everyone make sure that no matter where you live in America or where your family came from in the world. You have a path to opportunity to. That's why I'm proud to endorse Elizabeth Warren precedent. That's Julio Castro. Speaking in a video. He posted on twitter Monday just days after he dropped out of the presidential race. Senator Warren responded by tweeting quote. You've been a powerful voice for Bold Progressive Change and I'm honored entertain have your support together. We'll fight to make sure. Every single family in America has a path to opportunity. She wrote Castro and Warren are hosting campaign. Rally tonight in Brooklyn New York in Immigration News. Mexican seeking asylum in the United States can now be sent to Guatemala to seek asylum there under a Bilateral Agreement between the trump administration and Guatemala's outgoing president. Jimmy Morales the. US government has already begun deporting Honduran Brin and Salvadoran asylum seekers to Tamala local reporter in Guatemala said Fifteen Salvadoran asylum seekers including eight children and Eighteen Gene Honduran asylum seekers including ten children were deported to Guatemala yesterday. The trump administration has also started sending other asylum seekers. Here's to the border town of Nogales. Sonora as part of the controversial remain in Mexico policy which has forced tens of thousands of asylum seekers to wait in in Mexico for their immigration hearings. Those sent to Nogales. Sonora will now have to make a dangerous three hundred forty mile journey to their hearings and El Paso so Texas human rights groups say asylum seekers in Mexico have been assaulted robbed and kidnapped while waiting for more traveling to their immigration ration- hearings and Immigration and Customs Enforcement Ice and see BP customs and Border Protection have begun a pilot program to to harvest the DNA of asylum seekers detained an immigration. Jails the Immigration Agency said the Justice Department aided in the development of the program which was rolled out yesterday in news on the climate crisis the uncontrollable wildfires raging in Australia have blanketed the continent with thick smoke. That's now traveled nearly seven thousand miles across the Pacific Ocean and reached Chile. It's expected it to be visible over Argentina. In the coming days this comes as new data shows. India has suffered its hottest decade on record. Extreme weather killed killed fifteen hundred people in India last year alone. India's National Weather Office said the impact of global warming is unmistakable. Disgraced Hollywood mogul. Harvey Weinstein has been charged with rape and Los Angeles County facing up to twenty eight years in prison if convicted for for those crimes defended Weinstein is charged with one felony count each of forcible rape forcible oral copulation and sexual penetration by use of force. He also faces one felony count of sexual battery by restraint of another woman. We allege is the second assault took place the next evening in a hotel suite in Beverly Hills that was Los Angeles County District Attorney. Jackie Lacey. The charges charges were unveiled the same day Harvey Weinstein's rape trial began. Here in Manhattan. He faces life in prison on those charges. Over one hundred women have accused used disgrace film producer of Rape Sexual Assault Sexual harassment and professional retaliation in Mexico. A thirty say more than sixty thousand hours and people have been disappeared since the beginning of the US backdrop. Warren two thousand six human rights activists say both cartels and Mexican security forces are responsible for the disappearances the number of those disappeared in Mexico is now surpassed the numbers of force disappearances during some of the US back dirty wars and dictatorships tator ships in Latin America in the seventies and eighties in Bolivia the interim government has set a date for new national elections following the ouster. Mr Of Longtime President Evo Morales and what he described as a military coup organised. Trial Kombucha Electoral Tribunal Tribunal. Domingo call the election on Sunday may twenty twenty Le`Veon's elect the president of the public parliamentarians. Third Twenty I wanNA feed them. Up was confirmed as the day that was salvador. Romero Presidente Bolivia's electoral tribunal. Evo Morales will not be a candidate in the elections Sion's but he has been appointed to lead the campaign of his movement toward socialism. Party which will announce its candidate later this month in Venezuela us-backed opposition figure one. Guido says he plans to return to the National Assembly. Today it's confusion reigns over. Who is the president of Venezuela's National Assembly? On on Sunday claimed he wasn't allowed to enter the Legislative Palace Caracas to participate in the disputed vote for the assembly leader. Videos have tempting to jump a fence ends Gordon by security forces circulated and social media news outlets but is version of the events is being questioned by opposition members who did take part in the session Russian and say why don't could have participated to Venezuelans are calling on Congress to clarify who is the current president of the National Assembly as the political crisis. Isis escalates Madonna. Is the person who should be in charge of the National Assembly. The one the congressional deputies swore him if the lawmakers because choose personnel then person X. is the one who should be charged not a different person. I think it is wrong there. Guido swore himself in on his own. Again it does not write the move a six point. Five magnitude earthquake struck off the coast of Puerto Rico knocking out `electricity across the island. The earthquake comes less than one day. After a five point eight magnitude quake struck Monday damaging the coastal city of the stone arch a natural landmark of Punta to Tana also collapsed when the earthquake hit today's power outage comes after Puerto Rico experienced the longest blackout in US history and the the second longest blackout in world history following devastating hurricane. Maria in two thousand seventeen eight men are suing the boy scouts of America for allegations of sexual abuse at the hands of Scout Masters and other boy scout leaders decades ago the lawsuits being filed in Washington. DC TO BYPASS Statute that you to limitation laws. The lawsuit would pave the way for other survivors of sexual abuse in the boy scouts to file similar lawsuits in Washington. DC regardless of where or when the alleged abuse took place in Mississippi violence erupted multiple prisons. Leaving at least five prisoners dead. At least three of the deaths secured the State Penitentiary Parchman. Mississippi has one of the nation's highest rates of incarceration with chronic overcrowding in prisons across the state and here in New York City Up to twenty five thousand people marched from Lower Manhattan over the Brooklyn Bridge Sunday to denounce Anti Semitism. The march follows a surgeon anti Semitic attacks in the Greater New York area including the stabbing of Jewish worshippers who gathered at a rabbi's House to celebrate. Hanukkah in Muncie New York. Just over a week we could go. This is one of the protesters Sunday. It was wonderful it was just very inspiring and I hope that people recognize nice that we are strong and that we will not allow all this anti-semitism who that has been rampant in New York City and in the tri-state stay area and in America continue and those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now democracy now DOT ORG the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman new. Details are emerging about how the shadowy data firm Cambridge on a Lotta work to manipulate voters across the globe from the the two thousand sixteen election in the United States to the brexit campaign in Britain to elections in over sixty countries including Ukraine Malaysia Malaysia. Kenya and Brazil Cambridge on the LYRICA was founded by the right wing billionaire. Robert Mercer Trump's former advisor Steve van of Breitbart news was one of the company's key strategists and claims to have named the company the company collapsed in May two thousand eighteen after the Observer newspaper revealed the company had harvested some eighty seven million facebook profiles without the user's knowledge or consent Cambridge China. LYRICA use the data to sway voters during the two thousand sixteen campaign. A new trove of internal Cambridge on a legal documents and emails are being posted on twitter detailing the company's operations across the globe including its work with President Trump's former national security adviser John John Bolton the documents come from Cambridge Analytica whistle blower Brittany Kaiser who worked at the firm for three and a half years before leaving in two thousand eighteen. Kaiser is featured prominently in the net flicks documentary the Great Hack which has been shortlisted for an Oscar. This is the trailer for the film has seen an advertisement that has has convinced you that your microphone is listening to your conversations. All of your interactions. Your credit carte swipes web searches locations. Likes they're all collected in real time into a trillion dollar a year industry Real game changer was Cambridge analyst. They'd worked for the trump campaign and the brexit campaign. They started using information warfare Cambridge analytica claimed to have five thousand eight points. On every American voter I thought he'd tracking down all these Cambridge are ex employees. Someone else that you should be calling. The committee is Britney Kaiser Partly Kaisa once a key player inside Cambridge Analytica costing herself as a whistle blower. The reason why Google facebook powerful companies in the world is because last the surpassed foil in value was valuable asset on earth targeted. Those whose minds thought we can change until they saw the world the way we wanted them to. Do you know that the targeted tool was considered a weapon. There is a possibility ask. The American public has been experimented on. This is becoming criminal matter when people see the extent of the surveillance. I think that going to be shocked and I still hear your life. Yes the powerful people that are involved. Keep quiet because make should be considered to fundamental rights is about the integrity of our democracy these platforms which will create it to connect us have now recognized. It's impossible to know what is what because nothing. It also seems. That's the trailer to the Netflix. Documentary the Great Hack. Well we're joined right now by four guests by the film's Director's. Here's Johnny James and Cream. Amer there the CO directors of Great Hack which was just nominated for a BAFTA today. That's the British equivalent of the Oscars. Persson has been shortlisted for the Oscars. John's pass films With Cran Amer include the square. She also did Control Room Brittany. Kaiser is the Cambridge Analytical Whistle blower featured in the film. She's the author of targeted the Cambridge Analytical Whistle blowers inside story of how big data trump trump and facebook broke democracy. And how it can happen again and we're joined in Washington. DC BY EMMA Bryant Visiting Research Associate and human writes at Bard College who specializes in researching propaganda. Her forthcoming book is called Propaganda Machine Inside Cambridge on Olympic Etiquette and the digital influence industry. We welcome you all to democracy. Now Britney you have just begun to release release. A trove of documents from Cambridge Analytica involve scores of countries including in the United States including John Bolton including Iran. Talk about how why you decided to begin this release and what are in these documents. Absolutely I decided to release the hindsight files. Because it's now twenty twenty. I've been waiting and working with investigators instigators and journalists around the world for the past two years. And what I've seen is that we don't have enough change in order for voters to be protected ahead of not just November are but in twenty seven days the first votes that are cast for the twenty twenty election. I really think that digital literacy is the most important point that I'm trying to make career if you understand the tactics and strategies that are being used to manipulate you. Then you can protect yourself from that and I want to be able to empower voters ahead of casting their first vote this year so talk about these documents where they came from and what's in them. These are all documents from my time at Cambridge Analytica. I worked at the company for over three years. So it's internal communications and negotiations for data driven communications projects all around the world. It's proposals contracts and case studies of what has been done to intervene in democracy. And I think it's so important for people to understand that while well sometimes these tactics are benign sometimes they are incredibly malignant and there's evidence of voter suppression fake news and disinformation using using racism. Sexism and I just want to make sure that there are is real action that is going to be taken not just ahead of this next selection but for countries all around the world we need privacy legislation so badly we need to regulate big tech and have an ability to enforce force are voting laws online. Because right now we can't and unfortunately companies like facebook are not doing enough to protect us so for people who are new to what Cambridge Analytica is. Why don't you describe why it is and why you have these documents? What Cambridge on Lineker's role was in all of these countries including the United States absolutely so Cambridge Analytica was one of the companies under the Seal Group Strategic Communication Laboratories? This is a company that has been around for over twenty five years and they started by using data driven strategies in order order to understand people's psyche how they make decisions and how they can be persuaded to take certain actions or to prevent people from taking certain actions. Originally they started in defense yes and once they found out how successful that was that was actually in the Nelson Mandela lection in ninety three ninety four in South Africa they they were preventing election violence for defense contracts. They realized that that was very useful in elections and those strategies developed over two and a half decades in order to no longer. Just you good things and good impacts work but unfortunately to undermine democracies I want to turn to a clip from the documentary entry the great hack in this clip. The British journalist Carol could waller talks about Cambridge on Linda's parent company. Seal we also hear the voice of former Cambridge Lick CEO Alexander Knicks who was previously a director of a CEO SEO STARTED TATA as a military contract Seattle defense we're fastest -ness train the British albeit reshaping. US Aliyu especially trained. NATO a State Department is using research tube influence hostile kids. How swayed fourteen to zero Muslim? Boys much join They'd worked in Afghanistan in Iraq they would in various places in eastern. The real game. Changer was they started using information warfare in elections all the votes bullets. The campaign pains which Cambridge Analytica did for the developing world was all about practicing some new technology or trick how to persuade people to suppress or how to increase turnout. And then it's like okay now Michael Hanging. Let's use it in person in America. So that's a clip from the great hack. We're going to go to break and then come back. We're also also joined by the directors. This is democracy now democracy now dot Org the Warren piece reports stay with us You Law Promised Spring John that makes the lonely wind Breath hush of evening. That Trimble is on the brink of a loveless. You Eh you know All of the things you are already sean as orchestra with Helen Forrest. This is democracy now democracy now or the Warren Peace Report. I made me good. Then we're spending. Bending the hour looking at Cambridge Analytica the British company that was co founded by the the well known President Trump special advisor. Steve Bannon he was vice president of Cambridge Analytica which came out of a military contracting attracting group and now is accused of having been involved essentially with using tens of millions of people information that it harvested from facebook. Our guests are the award. Winning Filmmakers Kareem Amer and Jehan Nujaine who are directors of the Great Hack which which has just been nominated for a BAFTA the Oscar equivalent in Britain and has been shortlisted for an Oscar and Britney Kaiser whistle blower or who worked at Cambridge ANALYTICA for more than three years in Washington. We're joined by AMA- Bryant. Who has been looking at Cambridge? POLITICA for years Let me ask you Jehan. Why you decided to spend years of your life looking at Cambridge Analytica and making making this film the Great Hack and why you called it that well? This is me been film. I F feel twenty years in the making twenty years ago. I made a film with Chris Hedges Indiana Baker called startup dot com which was about the beginning of the DOT com world starting and where people wanted to be got online and start Internet companies and make millions and millions of dollars and fast forward twenty years and they are got online But I've always been obsessed with how we get our information and soon after startup dot com and make control room which was about looking at the Iraq war and depending on whether you were looking at two zero or or Fox News or CNN. You had a completely different understanding of reality on the ground and I was. I had this question Russian of how. If you don't have some kind of shared understanding of truth how can there be nuanced conversation and discussion. which is what's necessary for democracy to function flash boards US making the square and at that time social media was a tool for change positive? Change Your Square with. This is where we met and we made the film square and and at that time. Even when I was arrested twitter was is used to find me so It was a very positive tool for change. Then we see the pendulum's swing in the other direction. And we see see that social media can be used in a very different way And it was used by the army and then we saw started to see it being used in the brexit campaign and the trump campaign and we started to hear this word Hack and the hacking of of these elections. But what we realized was the real hack that we need to look at the hack of the mind and what is happening inside. Our News feeds and what happens when people are creating their own truths because they're being micro targeted and we started to look at this company Cambridge Analytica And what we found there was fascinating because we realized that there was this invisible label story. That's happening inside our computer screens inside our heads which is leading to everybody having a completely different understanding of reality based based on their news feeds. And that's when we met Britney Kaiser who at the time was just about to become a whistle blower and come out about what she knew who She was basically saying. I'm going to Thailand. If you want to talk to me. Then come meet me here. I can't tell you exactly where it's going to be but where I'm going but land at this airport matter there and that's where the film began. Well I want to go to a clip of the Great Hack your film in this Brittany. Britney Kaiser explains the concept of the persuadable 's remember. Those facebook causes that we used to form personality models for all voters in the US. The truth is we didn't target every American voter equally when the bulk of our resources went into targeting those reminds thought we can change we called them the persuadable 's in your everywhere in the country but the first week all day mattered. Were the ones in swing. States like Michigan Wisconsin Pennsylvania Council being in Florida. Now you should be states for broken down five precinct so you can. I'd say there are twenty two thousand persuadable voters in this precinct and if we target enough persuadable people in the right precincts The news states would turn red instead of blue. So that's a clip from the great hack. Britney Kaiser Explain Glean further this idea of persuadable 's so you might have heard them referred to as swing voters in brand advertising. They're called switchers because because it's easy to persuade someone to try something new or to change their mind so identifying persuadable is what everybody does in data science for political modeling every political consultant in the books is trying to do. This identified the people whose minds can be changed because quite a lot of people have not made up their mind yet. And when you're trying to introduce a character as controversial as donald trump the idea was find the people who could be convinced even though they had probably never voted for anyone. Anyone like him before. So talk about your trajectory I mean Kareem and Jehan. You do this very well in the film but it is a very very unlikely path to a firm that may well have been illegal and what it did and working with facebook harvesting all this information that ultimately helped to get trump elected. But that's not really where you came from in the film. I'm looking at pictures of you and Michelle. Shell Obama. You were a key figure in President Obama's a social media team in his election campaign. I have always been the political and human rights activists. That's where I came from so it was really easy to snap back into that kind of work. I actually was in the third year of my PhD writing about prevention of genocide war crimes and crimes against humanity. When I first met the former CEO Cambridge Analytica Alexander Nex my PhD? He ended up being about how you could get real time information so how you could use big data systems in order to build early warning systems to give people who make decisions positions like the decision. That was just made about Iran. Give them real time information so that they can prevent war before it happens. Unfortunately knowing that my law school could teach me anything about predictive algorithms so I joined this company parttime in order to start to learn how these early warning systems could possibly be built. We'll explain explain your meeting with Alexander next. Who is the head came from the defense contractor right as well and then Was the head of Cambridge China -LICA- who said let me get you drunk and steal your secrets yes. He did not not that becoming but he's always been an incredibly good salesman in one of my first meetings with him. He showed me a contract that the country is that the company had with NATO in in order to identify young people in the United Kingdom. Who are vulnerable to being recruited into Isis and running counter propaganda communications to keep them at home safe with their families instead of being sneaking themselves into Syria so obviously that type of work was incredibly attractive to me and I thought hey data can really be used for good and for human rights impact? This is something I really want to learn how to do. But soon you're on your way to the United States with Alexander next meeting with Corey Lewandowski who at the time was the campaign manager for Donald Trump. When did those red flags go up for you? There were red flags here and there especially when I would call our lawyers who were actually Giuliani's firm at the time in order to ask for advice on what I could and could not do with certain data projects wchs and I always got told. Hey you're creating too many invoices but what really landed. The plane for me was a month. AFTER DONALD TRUMP's election everybody at Cambridge Channel Africa. who had worked both on the trump campaign and on the trump super PAC which ran the defeat crooked hillary campaign? They gave us a two day long debrief which I write about in detail in my book. Targeted about what they did. They showed us how much data they collected. How they modeled it how they identified people as individuals that could be convinced not to vote and the types of disinformation that they sent these people in order to change their minds? It was the most horrific two days of my life to. What did you do after that? I spent a while trying to figure out if there is still anything could salvage from what I learned there. Was it still possible to to use these tools for good and when I realized that the company had gone too far in the wrong direction I started working with journalists in order to go through and figure out what I had hadn't documents that could possibly assist in saving democracy in the future. You testified before the British parliament. You were are subpoenaed by Robert Muller. You've been involved in a lot of information giving during these investigations in an odd way. Would you describe yourself as a persuadable Schwebel definitely and that's actually a story. That is very prevalent in my book. Most people don't like to think that they are persuadable persuadable. We all like to think that we can't be manipulated but trust me. We're not as digitally literate as we like to think that we are. That's why I released the hindsight files because I want everyone everyone to realize how easy it is for us to be manipulated and that we need to be aware in order to protect ourselves cream armor for people people who are still sitting here and going Cambridge on facebook. What does this have to do With each other Zuckerberg testifying before Congress. Explain explain then. What was the magic sauce? What happened here between these two companies? What did Cambridge Analytica do and also also scrutiny? This question and what did facebook understand was done and what did they do about it. Well I I think you know the the the situation that we find ourselves in one in which all of our behavior which is essentially what data is recordable. Human behavior is constantly being tracked and gathered. And that's part of the deal or the devil's bargain. We've made this new economy where we give our up and return we get services now. Most of let's go ahead and we sign these terms and conditions that we don't really read or don't really understand what they're about What will give you what we realized that? We're giving up a certain level of autonomy. I mean that we may not have understood the implications of now. What is that time? What that is? It's insight into everything you do all the time. It's something it's tracking you from the most public spaces when you're posting to the most intimate spaces when you're watching porn or when you are messing somebody and when you're staring at photos of the loved one or someone else. All of that behavior is constantly being is being tracked and it is used to create essentially a Voodoo doll of you that can predict your behavior with quite a lot of accuracy. The proof of that is that that is the business model of facebook and Google about predicting your behavior Selling access to that prediction thing of it is being in a casino that is I that is constantly running trying to make bets on what you're GonNa do next now That casino access is being sold in real time to all kinds of brands around the world with Cambridge identified was that they could take voter data and they could take personality the data and they can map them together and create the most accurate profiles. That's why they bragged about having five thousand data points about every. US voter order which was one of their unique offerings. And with that insight. They realized that. If you knew which districts you you had to target and how to target the key people in those districts with the perfect messaging you had that greatest chance of success and what the way that leaves us to is. We used to live in a world where a political leader had to write one in big one great story to inspire people to go onto a great. 'cause now we live in a world where a politician can customize a story to every single individual voter and do it in a way which operating darkness without transparency. What do we mean by darkness? We mean that till this day we still do not know what ads replaced on Facebook facebook in two thousand sixteen who was targeted. Who paid for those ads? How it was conducted? Were these ads paid for by foreign country or not what happened. What didn't happen in and we think we deserve to know why? Because we've seen that this has become a place of weaponized information that can be used to not only promote amazing ideas the to convince people not to vote which is active voter suppression. And what's troubling is that this isn't information crime whether it's legal or illegal. It doesn't matter in my opinion because many things in our country's history where legal ones before including safes slavery and yet we realized that was not okay for them to be legal so so at the current moment. FACEBOOK is a crime scene facebook. Has the answers. facebook knows what happened to our democracy and yet it is still unwilling link to participate in giving us the evidence. I want to turn to another one of your clips Johanna and Korean one of the clips of the Great Hack. This is one one of the main subjects of the documentary professor David Carroll. I was teaching digital media developing APPS. So I knew at the data from our online activity wasn't just evaporating dug deeper. I realized these digital traces of ourselves are being mined into a trillion dollar a year industry. The we are now the commodity. But we were so in love with the gift to this this free connectivity that no one bothered to read the terms and conditions David Carroll is featured in this documentary the Great Hack in two thousand eighteen we spoke to David Carroll at democracy now associate professor of media design at Parsons School of design. He's filed a full disclosure claim against Cambridge on Olympic in the UK. I asked him what he was demanding and clip of this also appears in the great hack full disclosure. So where did they get our data. How did they process it? Who did they share it with? And do we have a right to opt out so the basic rights that I think a lot of people would like to have and the basic questions that a lot of people are asking and we're going to find out just what happened happened with these demands. These questions he had when he took them to Britain to take on Cambridge and how he As well as Brittany Kaiser and others took Cambridge Analytica down. This is democracy. Now stay with us and like sugar Chaka. Khan this is democracy now democracy now dot org the war and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman our guest for this hour are Juhan Nojeim and Creamer. They are the award winning filmmakers. Who made the Great Hack? It has just been shortlisted for an Oscar nominated nominated for the British Oscar. BAFTA Britney Kaiser is with us. It is her first major interview since she's become begun. A major adjourn document leak troves of documents about Cambridge analytic involvement in various elections around the world in a moment. We're going to ask her about John. Bolton and Iran John Bolton by the way just said he will testify at an impeachment trial in the Senate which has turned the Senate on. Its head. Ed for the moment and we're joined by Emma Bryant visiting research associate and Human Rights at Bard College who specializes in researching propaganda her forthcoming the buck propaganda machine inside Cambridge on Olympic and the digital influence industry. Unless you listen to this conversation your work in Cambridge I don't let it has has been going on for a long time. Can you relate what they were doing. Also facebook in manipulating populations. It's as we move into this current election. We don't even have to say twenty twenty election anymore because we're in twenty twenty and how this work doc is basically scwhab psychological operations. Thank you amy yes I actually. I came across the the company S Seattle the parent company of Cambridge Analytica in two thousand and seven as part of my master's and then doctoral research and I've been following their techniques and in how they evolved over over the years and what I what I realized when I started to discover the the political work that they were doing thank beyond the counterterrorism campaigns that I was studying was just horrifying to the potential foot. What you know escalated during the sort of twenty tens is just phenomenal so we started to see them doing these big data projects for the military and so on and this was quite a change of direction for them from their earlier work which was is a lot more about you know a qualitative data doing interviews with people and so forth for their research and it it started to change the The kind of target audience analysis This kind of analytics of of what if if you like the persuadable is the people that you want to get your communication sat. What how have those groups were being profiled by the Military Harry then was being taken out and deployed in elections and this is deeply disturbing to me because of the fact that I think that these companies have been established with a particular motive in mind with a particular way of doing things a methodology and to be repurposing? That when you have been Doing work with Dolphin Defence Research Agency in the US as well as the British equivalent D. S. T. L. to develop these kinds of techniques leaks. And then you'll going off and taking them to clients that. Are you know working. In shady political campaigns around the world and a human rights abuses. It's really very disturbing. And then of course moving back into our own elections talks. Oh yes so in two thousand seventeen. I started to realize that they were working in. They'd worked on Brexit and they were worked the the trump campaign and I started to do a lot more interviews with the with the company including meeting Brittany for the first time and and Also met the filmmakers from the great great hack And I was weighed down by the responsibility for. What doc was discovering from my interviews I was interviewing people like Nigel Oaks as you can seem in the food? The evidence that I submitted committed the British parliament was telling me about the unethical activities. They were doing around the world for for instance for Kenya Tsa and the role that they played in Kenya and the role they played also in the election of Donald Trump and he was telling me about how he how they basically deployed the same kinds of techniques of the Nazis in the US election and now this horrified me and I had to go further and further and having stopped researching this and I think the most important thing is also also put this in the context of their military work because actually these funds are working in multiple domains. You have commercial data date use. You have military day to use and you have political data use in the same company and we have no regulation over what is happening in the United States with companies like this and there is little transparency over these companies in the United Kingdom to which is how we've ended up with this. Is this a real catastrophe for for democracy. So the issue is that we don't know how data who is being abused by this company. We know some examples of it. We certainly not. They had a slack regard for for consent from the You you know what's been revealed in in the Great Hack and Baikovo cadwalader and just. The data was being repurpose from from research done done by academics for their political campaigns. Where else might they have been repulsing data from and this is the thing that really scares me? The most is that this is rampant. I think across the industry I see many many more companies out there that so what these multiple domains with little accountability. I'd like to go back to October. When New York Congressman Alexandra Cossio Cortes question question? FACEBOOK CEO Mark Zuckerberg about Cambridge on a Lotta. Did anyone on your leadership team know about Cambridge Analytica prior to the initial report by The Guardian Ardian on December eleventh two thousand fifteen congresswoman. I I believe so and that some folks were were tracking it internally and I'm actually as you're asking this I I do think I aware of Cambridge Analytica as an entity earlier. I just I don't know if I was tracking. How they were? We're using facebook specifically. Was the issue discussed with your board member Peter Thiel congresswoman. I don't I don't know that this was the largest this data scandal with respect to your company that had catastrophic impacts on the two thousand sixteen election. You don't you don't know so. That's a congressman Brown zander. CASSUTO cortes questioning. Jeffrey sucker. A Brittany Kaiser was she telling the truth. I have found that during multiple rounds rounds of questioning that he thinks that Mark Zuckerberg continues to deny the amount of strategies that he is aware of the amount of data abuses that he is aware of and just saying that might team. We'll get back to you without being honest with the public is a massive disaster and not only for his own. Pr But for our democracy is and for moving forward in a productive manner and explain what a custody Cortez was getting at when she was talking about Peter. Not so Peter Thiel as far as I am aware was the head of trump's technology advisory council. There were multiple meetings where for Alexander Knicks the former CEO of Cambridge Politica was either being invited or attempting to be invited to those meetings. Through the Mercer's through Kellyanne Conway through Steve Bannon and you were with Rebecca Mercer. Right on trump inauguration night absolutely the mercer's and a lot of other people who had played a very large role in the funding in the campaigning for Donald Trump. Were reaching as far as they possibly could to technology tools in order to achieve goals. And are they doing it now. Absolutely I think if anybody thinks that this is different than twenty sixteen there Sarli mistaken in two thousand sixteen. Everybody saw how successful Cambridge analytic. 'cause tactics are so now there's hundreds of Cambridge Analytica is around the world especially acting in the US elections right now. So why. Don't we talk about John. Bolton and Iran the files that you're releasing that you had during your Cambridge on Olympic days. Can you set up this this video that we wanna play absolutely so the files on ambassador. John Bolton show the work that Cambridge ANALYTICA was paid to undertake for the John Bolton Super Pac that was work that started in twenty thirteen it was actually one of the biggest first projects that Cambridge analytica undertook. In the United States gets and that was to find five different psychographic groupings of voters and target them with psychographic messaging meant to resonate with your your psyche and engage you. Depending on whether you're open conscientious extroverted agreeable or neurotic and those videos were targeted over television and Youtube Pre roll. In order to convince people one fat national security was the most important political issue to that ambassador. Sir John Bolton was the biggest authority on these topics and three that whoever John Bolton endorsing for example Thom Tillis would be a better candidate it than Kay Hagan for example in that specific race so these ads were paid in order to manipulate people into being more interested in his hawkish hawkish foreign policies than in their own best interests. So can you talk about the and that is not radio friendly because it's mainly music with script over it but This is an ad for Thom Tillis. Right yes and it was an ad targeted at a group of people identified as being highly neurotic and therefore or it is black and white. It's eerie you get a very Emotional music that shows surrender. Flags on all of America's is most prominent landmark. Let me play and I'll read what it says on the screen so we'll listen to that music and play the ad and you can then comment further her. So there's white flags going up white flag on the Brooklyn Branch over the White House over Congress and it says America's never surrendered before what happens if we start now on November fourth vote. Vote Thom Tillis and that paid for two thousand fourteen. By the John. Bolton Super Pac the ad was titled White Flags Tell Us went on to win his Senate race yes he did indeed and they used these tactics and a very successful manner. In fact the John Bolton SUPERPAC paid for a third party to rate how a successful Cambridge analytic had been and they saw on this ad specifically that there was over a thirty six percent. Uplift in engagement on these ads versus the communication that they had already been running. And so what scares me so much is that I know that these tactics are being used right now. We are being manipulated in order to support going going to war with Iran. We are being manipulated in order to believe that this type of violence is acceptable and that we should support candidates that support this violence. There are some who have suggested did that. President trump did this possibly in part because he so deeply concerned about his impeachment trial and this specifically could be targeted good for John Bolton the former national security adviser who must immediately tweeted. We've been working on this for a long time. Talking about the assassination and that trump trump is frayed of what he might say and so this would appease him another important. Trench of documents that I released are in the Iran folder which actually shows that Vet Cambridge analytica and other right wing organizations like America rising that does all of the opposition research for the GOP. Were pulling to see how many people full in the United States we're interested in the Iran deal to drop sanctions or if they were against the Iran nuclear deal and more interested in war. So you can see the types of questions that were asked and that they were using that to model and identify people who could be persuaded to go against Iran and whether or not that would be favorable all four electoral fodder. I should say and right now. That same polling is happening so if you are identified as being a persuadable you're going to see more of this propaganda in order to convince to convince you that were is in our best interests when it obviously is not Emma Bryant. What makes us different from regular polling? Why did you see this this as evil? It's it's not polling. I think his evil. It's what it's being used for the I. I'd like to put this in a little bit of white context. If I may and talk a little bit about what I know you are we will do. Ron Oh okay sure So basically they were working also in the Gulf from twenty thirteen. And it's really important to note that the Saudis and the UAE were also very keen to oppose the Iran deal and trump's election was followed by huge spike in sales sales to to the Saudis. And I think that this being a military contractor is extremely important to remember in the light of these recent developments on Iran that we're going to leave at now but we're going to pick it up on part two will posted a democracy. Now Dot Org this has been an astounding discussion. I want to thank Emma. Bryant in Washington Britney Kaiser joining us and John and Karam dumber the Great Hack. Is there film. I mainly Goodman. Thanks for joining us.

United States Cambridge Cambridge Analytica facebook Iran Britney Kaiser John John Bolton President trump Cambridge Analytica Brittany Kaiser Oscar vice president Amy Goodman America Senate Washington Robert Mercer Trump Cambridge Analytica president
54 - The Return of Jack Balkin: Social Media Regulation & Responsibility

Politics: Meet Me in the Middle

34:36 min | Last week

54 - The Return of Jack Balkin: Social Media Regulation & Responsibility

"From kurkcu media so here we are in a position where every anonymous nutball hate group terrorist radical fringe on either side or worse. Politician can use shock jock outrageous methods to influence and mobilize huge audiences promote violence ruin. People's lives so last week. I asked renown yale law. Professor jack vulcan. How we can get a handle on. Facebook twitter google youtube and what their responsibilities should be a healthy society social function. These new companies now is to organize and facilitate democratic discourse right now because they are essentially surveillance company's data collection data modest station surveillance. Companies your business. Incentives are badly aligned with that function if we want to cure the problems of social media past the current debates over cancel culture d platforming reform section two-thirty and all of the other related questions. We have to focus instead on the business models of these companies. How they're organized their size. How they make money how they do business and if we can give them better incentives you'll be able to play their proper role in the digital public sphere. That's the key challenge. So of course we had to bring jack back bring bring we had to dig into his plan for adopting social media so it can be well a social benefit so stick around. You're listening to politics. Meet me in the middle. I'm bill curtis once again meet my co host. Jane albrecht an international trade attorney. Who for a decade protected the first amendment rights of the film industry internationally and she's a member of the us supreme court bar. she's also been involved with several. Us presidential campaigns. Welcome back jane. How you doing great bill. It's always a delight to be here jack. Bulkin he's back with us again to dig into what is perhaps the most profound challenge of our time the role of social media in society and even in politics jack the night professor of constitutional law in the first amendment at yale law school. He also founded and directs the yale information society project a jack. Thanks so much for coming back pleasure. So jack wire broadcast. Tv stationed regulated by the government. The fcc but just to promote the internet a powerhouse like facebook gets a free pass well because the model of regulation is very different than the way that it worked with broadcast media was that the government gave them a very valuable free public resource that is access to the spectrum and in return. They took on public interest obligations. So that was twenty century model for broadcast. What happened with the internet was very different. In the nineteen ninety s congress revamped the telecom act and essentially deregulated large parts of telecom. The idea then was that broadband companies would be mostly unregulated the information services as opposed to telecommunication services and the way the internet was designed. Was that anyone could build an application on top of the basic structure of the telecommunication system the broadband system so people built lots of applications one of those applications with social media. It got larger and larger and larger until doubts as swallowed large parts of the digital public sphere. So the model of regulation was always different. The social media companies we have today are the products of a strongly deregulatory environment at starts with the clinton administration. Was it important to the government back. Then that the internet grows. Why did it seem like they promoted that concert. Well they assumed and this was bipartisan. By the way both parties agreed they assume that the internet was going to be amazing source of economic growth. their focus was commercial. The ideology of the time was we should just let people try lots of different things and experiment with lots of different things and see whether or not we can grow the economy. Of course what happens when you have a deregulatory system like that. Is you get something like facebook. You end up with a mess. Yeah you end up with a mess but you also end up with very very large companies and there was something else that they didn't quite understand in the nineties. We understand better today which is simply this study of network effects certain kinds of businesses people will want to be part of because other people are part of them. That's not true with all goods and services but with respect to social media you want to be on facebook because all your friends are on facebook so the effect of network effects us to make these particular kinds of companies very very powerful. I wanna to talk about something you said actually last night while we were chatting and it pertains to this. He said that we've moved from a world in which publishers treated everyone as the audience to a world in which we are the content producers. That's right that's a flip the ramifications of that of course a tremendous. And if you're worried about the quality of discourse online it stems largely from that big change so if you think about the kinds of things that people would get on radio or television or even in their newspaper or from a book. Publisher reputable publisher. You'd see these things were already edited. They were already. Streamline was already choices about what to cover and whatnot cover and so what. You've got was a very stylized version public discourse. Let's take a silly little rule that the fcc has broadcast they have a whole lot of rules. How many commercial minutes. They can have think they have to do with. News swearwords than i led to swear on broadcast. Tv yeah why is it. That broadcast is so different. And why is it that we like no longer care about the health of society as long as it goes through a different pipe. Your point about which pipe it goes through is very well taken. Many people think that in fact the twenty century system for broadcast regulation is outmoded. But as you point out one of the interesting consequences of that system of regulation was that it produced a form of public discourse. That isn't as wild and crazy as the kind you often see. Online that has both advantages and also disadvantages to or one of the disadvantages of courses. Who's got responsibility for the content that we see on social media. Talk a little about the communications decency. Act this section two-thirty. Everybody's been hearing about that. Dates back to the nineteen ninety. The question was whether or not when new forms of internet companies that bulletin boards in those days were going to be going into business and they allow people to publish their own content. Which is really the hallmark of digital public sphere. Would they be held responsible for everything they have to go in and edit everything and if they did edit things would they be held responsible for that. Those are the two questions in the nineties. And congress response was the idea that no they'd be hold harmless either way they wouldn't be responsible for user generated content put on system and if they chose to get rid of stuff like pornography or offensive material. They wouldn't be held responsible for that either. That was the idea in section two thirty of the telecommunications act that had enormous consequences in terms of who could go into business because basically it meant that relatively small startups could go into business. You don't have to worry about being wiped out with a single lawsuit but it also affects intriguing all sorts of bad actors who could make use of the new system. The fact is these organizations. Give radicals i'd a great big megaphone in a real big soapboxes helping isis recruit for example. So what is the thought. Behind responsibility for the result of these pipes creating this megaphone facebook aligns itself with governments all over the world in taking down terrorist recruitment content. they're not required to do so by american law although there are arguments about whether or not they might have an obligation but nevertheless do it so define terrorist in this case. I seem to remember not too long ago. There were a group that was gathering to kidnap a government official in michigan. That doesn't seem too far from terrorism to me neither destroying the capital to capital is even more interesting because that was an example of the internet and social media enabling smaller white extremist groups to come together and therefore become more before than they would have otherwise one of the effects of shifting from most people as audiences to people as audiences and creators of content. Is that it. Greatly lowers the cost of organizing all sorts of public spirit organizations. Find it much easier to organize find members and all sorts of organizations. That are not all that. Public-spirited can also find it much easier to organize and find members as one of the consequences of the democratization of speech. That comes the digital public sphere. One of the things that was a big surprise for me was last week. You called facebook. Google and twitter surveillance companies basically in the personal data business. That's what they are. Has that work and does that guide directions. I mean that's really funny. These companies offer services for free. They don't do it out of charity. They do it because they want personal data. And what did they do with it. Oh well they monetize the date in lots of ways. They use it in other words to hold huge auctions for advertisers facebook and google. Say we have the dato. Who's on win. What they're interested in where you might want to place your ad when you might want to place it. All of that. Data helps them to basically create huge auction system for digital advertisements. Another thing that they do most people. I think don't know this is that facebook is continuously performing but we might call social science experiments on its user base. Some of them are very simple. Like what color do we have for this particular part of the website or not but others are more interesting if we send. The message is out in this order. How will people tend to respond to those messages. Will they stay on site more often or not more often if we do the message this way rather than that way. What will their buying habits be. So they perform a any number of experiments on people who sign up for facebook and by the way if they were university they would have to get permission from a human subjects committee. but they're not a university. There were profit corporation so they experiment lots and so everybody who uses. Facebook is a guinea pig. There's a saying that if you're not paying for it you're not the consumer you're the product so jack one of the things you said half a facebook puts out the fires that the other half facebook sets. Yeah so books a really interesting company. Facebook is kind of divided into two one part of the company. And i met many of the people. They moderate content. They take down all sorts of terrible stuff and they set policy and many of these people. Are you know very well meaning people. They're very public. Spirited and then below them is an entire army actually many armies who sit in rooms and have to make snap second decision at three seconds to look at a piece of content and it says this enormous bureaucracy that's all devoted to content moderation and dealing with all of the problems. Terrible things that happen online and believe me. They are terrible. They would make your hair curl. What's left of your hair. Bill thanks a bunch and many folks who work there contractors. Ah facebook they have post traumatic stress disorder. It's just awful for them. Terrible conditions all right so that's one side of the company. Okay the other side of the company is interested in gardening as much money as possible through advertising and that means addicting people to the site and then getting stuff on the side that will draw the most attention as you said bill. It's the stuff. That's the most outrageous and that trays on your emotions. So that side of facebook starts fires. The other half facebook puts out fires and that is no way to run social media company. That's not what we want. Is it unique to facebook though or is it about the social media companies. It's true all social media. Companies that are advertiser based monetization personal database and that higher significant armies of folks to do content moderation. What makes facebook so special is how large it is. It's the largest by far of all the social media companies and its influence spans worldwide. And if it makes a mistake not out of mouse but just makes a bad error. It can have enormous ramifications around the world and especially in countries where the governments really do nothing. Facebook is far more powerful in effect than many countries in the world. Absolutely jackie kids. No i don't. I've got kids and every once in a while back. When they were teenagers they'd slip up a bit and you'd say to them. They get to select their punishment. And they'd get all weird on you in the I think i should be grounded until six. Pm tonight. I've got a date. So here's an ad that ran this morning on the daily. This podcast is supported by facebook. Twenty five years ago phones weren't smart yet and people still said. Fax it to me. The internet has changed a lot since nineteen ninety six. But that's the last time. Comprehensive internet regulations passed. That's why facebook updated internet regulations to set clear guidelines for justice. Today's toughest challenge. It's protecting privacy. Enabling safe and easy data portability between platforms and more learn more about these supports updated internet regulations at about at be dot com slash. Regulations are petulant child trying to pretend that they want what's good for the society. We what they really want us to manage the oncoming wave of regulations. That are coming their way. Do we feel like that's going to be the only way this kind of thing gets done is to get them to agree to something or is the government going to decide that. There's some real regulations that have to be put in place remember. The facebook is a global company. And so it is continually fighting a multi-front battle right now. It may look as if regulation is coming in the states but of the hoax that facebook know that regulations already here in the european union. The european union has been lay out ahead of the curve in terms of protection privacy gdp. Are i think what facebook is asking is will other countries around the world because remember they think globally they don't think about the united states primarily will other countries start to like the. Gdp are will they start to bring antitrust lawsuits as the european union is already doing will united states do what europe has done. We'll go that direction. I want to take a quick break. But when we come back jack i wanna talk about your statement at the top of the show and talk about the regulating of business models in their economic incentives at social media companies. We'll be right back on medicine. Where still practicing. Join dr steven back and bill kurtis for real conversations with the medical professionals who have their finger on the pulse of healthcare in the modern world available on all your favorite pod casting platforms produced by kirk. Oh media we're back jack. Let's break down your statement that we played at the top of the show. I you said we need to regulate their business models so the economic incentives are better aligned with their appropriate social function. What did you mean by that. What i mean is instead of thinking about how they're gonna make money. Think about what you want social media companies to do but it's a private company but we regulate business all the time in order to promote social goods. We regulate businesses for example to prevent pollution and protect the environment. That's social good. That's something we want to achieve. We regulate businesses to make sure they don't oppress workers we regulate businesses to make sure that they treat consumers fairly. We do all sorts of forms of regulation of business. So there's nothing particularly weird about that claim that's most public policy. It does feel kinda funny to tell private industry that they are required to have a social function. I understand protecting the public. I should just say the idea that. The media doesn't have performance social functioning democracy. The claim that that's true. That's a bizarre. You may remember that. The term press appears in the first amendment and the press is a private organisation. The founders of our constitution assumed that media would play a social function. They thought it to be central to democracy. And there's a famous quote of jefferson. Bill i'm sure you know she says if it was a choice between having government and having newspapers he'd rather have newspapers That's because how important he thought. The social function of newspapers were newspapers in jefferson. Stay were much more like social media. They were so. Let's dive back into your statement. Check the we need to regulate their business models so the economic incentives are better aligned with their appropriate social function. Let's talk about how you would do that. Well so what is it. We want from them. What we want for them is to organize and facilitate public conversation so that people can talk to each other. They can share ideas and opinions. That's good it's a good thing. We also want them to curate public discourse to get rid of threats harassment and to basically provide a relatively safe environment for a public conversation as what we want them to do. But it's also the case that it would be a good idea to have lots and lots and lots of different social media companies with different rules and different notions of what's appropriate or not appropriate. So that people could make choices about where they want to engage in social media so what we want the diversity of different media with different kinds of afford different kinds of features and different kinds of rules different kinds of moderation policies and we want in other words a pluralism of social media companies. Why do we want to give people platform because the result is that you can give bad actors big platforms. I just want to say that the idea that you don't want ordinary people to have a voice strikes me as profoundly elitist antidemocratic. It is except one of the problems that i have. I know jane. Has you have jane. Is that you like facts. You like to hear actual facts about a situation for you can make up your mind and have an opinion about how we should proceed. As a society. I would agree and the problem with having just anyone capable of saying anything on a platform. It's not necessarily facts. It might be garbage. There's a difference between not giving people access to the platform but having some governing principles. So that truth is given a chance whose truth. There's times that may be great but there's some times. When is there an ocean along the coast of melba. Yes there's an ocean. You can't really think too much about that. So it is important to have rules. That as jack says would limit or eliminate harassment threats. And things like that. If jack has his way everybody's gonna have access to this platform. I want to say bill. I don't understand what your problem is with freedom of speech. My problem is that you and jane are hoping that freedom of speech results in real facts and no bad actors and it's not realistic. What what you really worried about is the veracity of the reach of content which you think is harmful conspiracy theories antitax information even just confusing jack as propaganda when you talk to your friends. And they're confused as to what the facts are about a situation because you know. It's very hard on online to tell the difference between someone's opinion and Something that comes at a new source. So in a well-functioning system a digital public sphere you have lots of people participating and you have lots of other institutions some of which would be social media companies but others of which would be other institutions that are designed to weigh and assess the quality of information and to produce more information. Now guess what. What are those institutions they are journalistic institutions universities and scientific research institutions. There are all these institutions in democracy that basically produced information and have criteria for deciding. What's what's full and promoted and disseminated. Now you also need media because you also have to have a sphere in which people trade opinions and exchange ideas that going to be governed by different rules than the rules of journalism which are governed by perfect should be governed by professional norms professional journalism by science which is governed by different norms by education which is governed by different norms. So when you think about the public sphere as a whole what you have is a bunch of institutions. A bunch of media and people participating. Now what's happened in our world. I'll tell you first. Social media company have not played the appropriate role as the curator's and the organizers of public discussion. Instead they've gone for the quick buck and that has caused many of the problems as we discussed before. That's the whole data. Monetization throws you talked about. That's right so that has undermined the kind of public discussion. That would be helpful in a democracy. The very same system modernization has undermined one of the key institutions for discovering truth and disseminating journalism journalism has been decimated not only by social media but by the basic structure of internet economies. And so that is deeply weakened the strength and health of the public sphere. Unscrupulous politicians have attacked most of the major institutions. Which are used to weigh. What's true and false. They've attacked universities. They've attacked the educational system. They've attacked any kind of elite institution. Because it late right. Anti elitism has been a key word in our politics for the last at least thirty years in going back before and that has had the effect of undermining a key component of a public sphere that works. The point is in effect. A public sphere has lots of ingredients. Not just one and they all have to be functioning and what has happened. In the last forty years is each of them has been significantly weakened and undermine and the result is the mess. We're living in today. So what's the functional regulation or change in policy that you'd like to see so the first thing you have to go after is the central business model of social media. That means two things. First of all you have to use competition policy to require breaking up of different functions of social media so i would separate the advertising networks in the advertising auction systems from the social media companies. They should not in fact have that kind of control. It's interesting at is interesting. Second i would try to say. Size of these companies should be limited so there are many of them third. I would prohibit mergers anticipatory mergers of new technologies which basically wipes out new competitors. I mean one of the great geniuses. Facebook was that whenever they saw new technology in a new company that has bought it up and the either incorporated into facebook or they let it lie fallow and that basically wiped out a lot of potential competitors would enforce that then i would require a comprehensive digital privacy. Law outed states not necessarily the same as europe's on this consistent with our constitution and our ways of doing things. And i think that anyone who's in the business of collecting large amounts of personal data should be treated as a information fiduciary. That's a concept that i've popularized developed over the years you know what a fiduciary is right. That's a person who acts on behalf of the interests of another and is required to take that others interests into account when they use information or money or property. So trustees a fiduciary a lawyer who represents you as a fiduciary right and my view is that because these companies take all this data from us and use it in ways. That could harm us or manipulate us. They have to take Obligations it's harming selling it to the advertisers well. It depends on which advertisers some advertisers. You sell two-dozen harm you at all. In fact which are doing is actually getting information to people that they might want but there are other kinds of uses of sale of personal data or distribution of personal data or access to personal data. Which in fact can lead you to be manipulated by third parties. You may have remembered the cambridge scandal. That was situation in which facebook gave access to data to a third party cambridge politica. Who used it to create psychographic profiles and sought to manipulate people. Now whether they actually were that good at what they said they were is not clear they might in fact have just been selling snake oil and both directions but the problem was that facebook did not take care as to who it gave access today to and then that way they weren't acting like a fiduciary they were not acting protecting the interests of the people whose data they collect and use. You actually tell We'll take google that you want them to stop the monetization of data of us personally and how they sell it to advertisers. No i don't wanna stop all monetization of data. My view is that these companies unless they're subscription companies. They're going to use advertising. So i'm not interested in having them no longer sell advertising or have advertising. What i'm interested in is what are the limits on the way in which they can monetize data. These are releasing. Eddie is one question. I have is. If you were successful in being able to separate the advertising functions of social media company from the social media company itself how would these social media company without the advertising function make money sounds like it would just charge the advertising side. Imagine a guy named don draper ever heard of him. So don draper's middleman so on one side you have india where the advertising's run and on the other hand. You have advertisers. They basically want to run in media. Now don draper's the middleman he's advertising agency and he's a broker between advertisers where they're placed right so that was a twentieth century system in the twenty first century. Facebook is draper as well as the media in which advertisements are placed. So what. I want to create a more differentiated economic system. I don't want to have a single ad broker. You have a single ad. Broker down the ad broker is going to be the most powerful institution in the world. What i want. Is i want a larger number of smaller companies and that is the secret to basically creating a sound system. But that's not enough. You can't just have antitrust competition. Will you also have to privacy consumer protection than won't you just have some companies that choose the most outrageous concepts so that they actually gather radicals because that's what brings an audience bill in a world with many social media companies there will be social media companies that cater to every different ideology and belief system. The question is whether or not they have the same reach and power. That facebook does and the answer is they. Won't we're going to take another quick break check when we come back. I think i'd like to go into the whole concept of free speech and whether these social media pipes are required to facilitate it. We'll be right back. Welcome to life done better. Listen to the weekly episodes where supermodel and health coach. Jill diong talks to some of the world's most inspiring women in health and wellness. It's the place for all the unicorns who strive to create a life on their own terms. Join us to explore. Discover and create a life done better together. Listen and subscribe from kurt co media media for your mind. We're back with yellow professor. Jack balkin jack. You focused a lot of your career on the first amendment in one of our discussions. You said that we've moved from the first amendment equaling free speech to now. The first amendment is only part of free speech. What do you mean by that right. So when you speak on publicly owned platform facebook or youtube or twitter your relationship to the platform owner is different than your relationship to the government. The government is bound by the first amendment. It may not infringe your first amendment rights your free speech rights but you also have an interest in freedom of expression against the private platform owner the owner of infrastructure as well. So that means we think about free speech jill age. We're not only worried about our free speech. Rights against the government were also worried about our free speech interests and rights against private parties. Those won't be first amendment rights. They will be concerned. About freedom of expression they won't be enforceable through the first amendment and quite the contrary the first amendment rights are probably rest with the private companies in their decisions as to who they allowed to speak on their platforms jag which it the government is allowed facebook to be omnipotent and not responsible for content so how at the same time does mark zuckerberg have the right to limit anyone's right to their on free speech when you say. The government has allowed facebook to be omnipotent. What you mean is they adopted. A series of economic policies intellectual property policies and contract policies and telecommunications policies that have allowed such large corporation to develop and exercise power globally. That's what you're saying Well that's orthogonal to the question of whether or not. When facebook operates a business a media business in the united states it has first amendment rights. And the answer is it does. We can't help but talk about this. Eight hundred pound gorilla in the corner. Mr trump's right to social media that has been removed so his right to free speech by and large has been eliminated by certain companies. His right to free speech on the platform has been eliminated. Correct by those companies. All right very good now. I just want to point out to two things. First of all trump lived on borrowed time thrives tire presidency. He was in conspicuous violation of the policies of the social media companies throughout his presidency. He made threats engage in propaganda. He advocated violence. Get everything which by the way would get. You kicked off a facebook or twitter if you're a private citizen and he was delighted to keep doing it and you know what they made a special exemption from him because they made special exemptions for important powerful public figures and heads of state because they made a ton of money on him where hold. That's the point. Their view was that what he said was important in newsworthy. And people would want to hear it and so they made an exemption from their rules. And guess what happened. What happened was january. Sixth and january six happened. They realized that it's not such a good idea to make exemptions for powerful people because powerful people will use their power to do all sorts of terrible things if they're not hemmed in and so in a sense. What twitter did i mean. Facebook is still deciding. The question what twitter did is. they said. You know the decision we did to give this guy a free pass not hold him to the same rules. We hold everybody else in the united states to was a mistake and so we are basically booting them off the system which you know what else is true by trump. Trump can talk to anyone he wants. He can issue a statement. It'll be covered by the press. He can hold press conferences. He can get a blog. He enjoyed any number of different social media companies. The idea that the man does not have the ability to speak is absurd reticent to try to defend mr trump however it does seem like. There's a double standard. The government has specifically protected these pipes. Google facebook twitter from slander and libel suits. They've protected them with this section to thirty so here you have immunity but at the same time we're asking them to be somewhat responsible for the content that the bill in talking about this you have to understand this much the conceptual issue when this all started was are they publisher like a book or magazine publisher or are they more in the old technology. More like at where at and t. was not responsible for conversations you had with someone else while using their telephone lots and at the time they decided they were more like a platform that was the underlying philosophy of why they were not held responsible. The question is should we revisit it at this point to piggyback on james comment what they decided was that what they had was a new animal which was a little like. At and t. But was different in the sense that they also wanted expected that these companies would engage in some kind of content moderation and that. You can't actually run a social media. Company of any sort without having content moderation so reason why they created intermediary meeting the first place was to say that the content moderation decisions would be that would be the call of the social media company. They would do the calls. And the reason is very simple. Imagine that the government had its own social media company imagine that the government decided that it was just going to create a version of facebook. Call it uncle sam. Uncle sam is a social media company. Run by the american government. If they did that it would soon be a cesspool. And the why is because everything. That's protecting their first amendment. Would in fact exists on that site and there's nothing the government can do about it so the idea of content moderation by these companies is something more than what is protected by the first amendment so for example pornography is protected by the first amendment and uncle. Sam ran a social media site. There'd be a lot of pornography on it there'd be of commercial speech on an advertisement and spam on it and there's not very much the government can do about it because the first amendment protects it all the idea of having a social media companies and social media company can curate it. It can have a rule saying sorry. No nudity on our social media site which just assuming that they're going to have our best interests at heart as they curate. These things with goes back to the original question. We had before bill. I said that currently their economic incentives are skewed so they don't have interested art. Would you have to do is create a business model which they're more likely to act in the interests of the public that requires it any trust law competition law privacy law and consumer protection law if you don't have those things but you get her social media companies especially the largest ones that create lots fires jack balkin. Thank you for returning with us today. No doubt you're gonna get invited back. Hey to the listeners. Who haven't heard our last show where we focused on. Jack's book the cycles of constitutional time start by going and buying the book amazon. And then come back and listen to the show. It's really pretty amazing jack. Thank you so much for joining us and jane. Thank you for joining us as well jack. I've got one thing for you to try on for size before we go all right. In order to qualify for section two. Thirty facebook google twitter and youtube have to change their policies. So that all contributors must be actual people identified as real people trackable with clear attribution. This alone will eliminate eighty percent of the hate hoax. Slander and crazy stuff on social media and the remaining twenty percent will be subject to libel suits and fbi investigations. But you think it's actually orthogonal to the problem because much. The propaganda is produced by people themselves. Facebook already has a real name policy and that has not prevented facebook from being the site of enormous amount of propaganda dossier thinking our executive producer for this episode of being me in the middle. Is stuart engineering. Editing was by joey. Salvia and mixing in sweetening by steve ricky burg music. For this meet me in the middle is composed by celestin eric. Dick don't waste your time. Hunting around for our next episode hit that subscribe button million. We'll see you next week. Room kirk. oh media media for your mind.

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Democracy Now! 2019-10-25 Friday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:02 min | 1 year ago

Democracy Now! 2019-10-25 Friday

"From New York this is democracy now so you won't take down lies fields reversing his earlier abrupt decision to withdraw ground forces from Syria that's according to reports by CNN and Fox News which Hanako the United Nations is sending a team to Chile to investigate allegations of human rights abuses against anti-government protestors following weeks of mass political revenge he said President Trump's planning to send hundreds of US troops and tanks to eastern Syria to protect oil demonstrations nationwide over inequality crippling wages and the rising cost of healthcare and education at least eighteen people have been killed since protests erupted October nineteen the midst mounting reports of brutality and torture by Chilean authorities in Ecuador indigenous rights activists say they've halted negotiations with politicians to lie and political ads we'll play highlights from more than five hour hearing where he was blasted by members of the House financial services the power to subpoena witnesses and to convene grand juries and to file criminal charges Congress member Jerrold Nadler who chairs the House Judiciary Committee tweet didn't respond Mr and if it was a fire it wasn't earthquake the response to be so quick but this is an economic disaster this is a hurt number of Americans out on the street we go to Ground Zero of the Homelessness Crisis Oakland California this is a disaster the Russia investigation and the latest move by the White House to discredit the work of special counsel Robert Muller the move by Attorney General Bill Bar will give the Justice Department cultural disaster this is the housing disaster but they're not treating it like all the other natural disasters NEC we'll bring you special democracy now report from eighty among those related to leave and Alexandra Cossio Cortes then is rising inequality and staggering housing insecurity leva rated the deployment now appears likely the move appears aimed at protecting a gas plant near the city of Deir ez-zor operated by the US fossil fuel giant is these reports if true raise profound concerns that the Department of Justice Underage Bar has lost its independence and become a vehicle for president trump's uh-huh and the poor is just being decimated at every turn all that and more coming up ads are whole politicians to its usual content standards the social media giant CEO Mark Zuckerberg is grilled by lawmakers over its policy allowing brawling encampment one hundred people in East Oakland that the city just crackdown on this week on house people there say the city's fell welcome to democracy now democracy now dot org the warranties report Goodman the Justice Department's opened a criminal investigation into the origins city they they they seem like they don't they don't care all they wanna do is acquire land to build properties for the rich to make more money off Odin will be held in five regions next month due to irregularities in the ballot but said the outcome won't be enough to prevent a runoff election in December official figures show sint anti-austerity protests in Ecuador the massive anti-government protests were ongoing for two weeks since ceased after President Marino indigenous leader struck a deal to see it is inconsistent with your privacy principles that American people are tired of this apocryphal as facebook says it will not fact trek political east African nation Thursday opposing a proposed constitutional change that would let the sitting president run for a third term in office the protests were heavily policed but peace Morella of holding onto power illegally in Guinea tens of thousands of protesters flooded the streets of the capital Conakry and other cities around the for a fourth presidential term prompting a new round of protests from opponents who claimed Sunday's presidential election was rigged election officials said a new round took forty seven percent of the vote in nine candidate field just over ten points more than his nearest opponent Carlos Mesa who condemned the vote count as a gigantic fraud and sentenced two dozen opposition politicians civil society leaders to jail terms of up to one year in Washington DC thousands of mourners honored the late the president Lyndon Merano over the government's persecution of indigenous leader Hi Vargas Vargas as the head of the indigenous nationalities Ecuador Kaanai the organization that led it to represent Baltimore district in the House of Representatives Thirteen Times Cummings will be laid to rest today after a funeral in Baltimore former presidents leave the honor he spent decades championing the rights of African Americans and the poor I is a civil rights activists later as Maryland State legislator before being elected Congressman Elijah Cummings Thursday his body lay in state in the US Capitol Cummings who passed away last week at the age of sixty eight was the first African American lawmaker Tours Bill Clinton and Barack Obama will be among those speaking former vice president in two thousand twenty Democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden Thursday reverse to play her and former Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein who was spotted in the audience one of the evening's performers comedian Kelly Bachmann who's a rape survivor this Thursday as they blocked downtown traffic and a sit in protest demanding all residents be eligible to receive driver's licenses including undocumented immigrants this is one of the protesters for them and he's made clear to fossil fuel and pharmaceutical donors that he will be their ally unquote in Newark New Jersey police arrested over a dozen actively bring your own maze and rape whistle to actors our now Bernie Sanders campaign which opposes SUPERPAC Slam Biden's move saying quote Joe Biden has spent his campaign promising elite donors that nothing will fundamentally changed thirteen U. S. states plus Puerto Rico in Washington. DC issued driver's licenses regardless of a person's immigration status in New York City a woman comedian was boo well unlike smaller demonstrations last week that saw police open fire with live rounds killing at least nine people and sending scores to the hospital after those protests authorities fan so I know sturdy package push by the International Monetary Fund Libyan President Evo Morales declared victory Thursday in his campaign you'd to attendees were kicked out of an event for young performers and Manhattan's lower east side Wednesday night after they protested the presence of accused Sexual Predator edge not to accept the help of Super Pacs Abidin campaign spokesperson said the move is necessary to counter a barrage of attack ads from President Trump a spokesperson trial in Manhattan court in January in sports news the Houston Astros fired assistant general manager Brandon Taubman Thursday after he yelled eighteen million people are under red flag warnings across southern California as the tick fire north of Los Angeles exploded to consume over three thousand acres in a matter of hours sports illustrated reporter Stephanie APP Stein and two other female reporters quote thank God we got us sooner I'm so glad we gotta soon he said forcing thousands of residents to flee their homes in northern California Pacific Gas and electric said broken jumper cable and transmission tower was spotted near the source a high winds and bone dry conditions fueled an explosion of new wildfires overnight with at least nine active major fires now raging across the state room do we know it's not a Freddy Kruger there didn't know speaking of she joined the peaceful blockade intersection because the team years drivers fronting Harvey Weinstein Nobody's empires just ahead of game two of the world series Wednesday night Drake tweeted quote we'll be buying an ar fifteen tomorrow because if you impeach my president students who were granted relief from the federal government after Carinthian colleges collapsed in two thousand fourteen amidst government scrutiny of its fraud and predatory lending under Thursdays the way you will have another civil war Maga- twenty twenty drake since deleted his twitter account and apologized in California any five years behind bars the American Civil Liberties Union welcomed Thursday settlement agreement calling the law and unconstitutional attempt to silence protesters of the keystone exit so the ten thousand Acre kincaid fire in Sonoma's county in South Dakota environmentalist or declaring victory after the state's Republican governor and Attorney General agreed not to enforce coulter the C Word Rollo's also rape survivor Harvey Weinstein's pleaded not guilty to multiple charges of rape sexual assault and predatory sexual assault he faces they go amber rouleau who is also a comedian confronted Weinstein and whisked out as well after member of Weinstein's entourage motivations or from mounting a quote necessity defense saying they're lawbreaking was necessary to prevent the far greater crime of a nuclear war this is bill quick nuclear weapons submarines that are at Kings Bay have thirty eight hundred times as much destructive power as the weapons that were used cold out Weinstein during her act on stage and it's our job to name the elephant in the blading in order to stop collecting student debt for people who were defrauded by the for profit chain Carinthian colleges the court ruled devos ignored the rights of more than sixty thousand former glee attorney for the Kings Bay plow share seven speaking just after Thursday's guilty verdict as the jury was not allowed to hear the submarines Kashima enough power to destroy life on earth as we know it and so they After two years of Prayer Peace Activists Guilty on three felony counts and a misdemeanor charge for breaking into the Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base April Fourth Two Thousand Eighteen the fiftieth stain was wearing a purple domestic violence awareness spray slow at the time of the incident meanwhile Major League Baseball is reviewing the status of Bob Drake one of its senior they face more than twenty years in prison this ploughshares activists Martha Hennessy the weapons are still there the treaties are being knocked down one Wayne Johnson says he'll promote a plan that would forgive up to fifty thousand dollars for anyone with federal student loans worth about nine hundred twenty five billion dollars he told the wall laws allowing draconian fines and prison terms for protesters opposing oil and gas pipelines under the so-called riot boosting act protest organizers faced up to launch a crypto currency called libra that would reshape the world's financial system members of the House Financial Services Committee many of them women blasted him with questions for more history of Dr Martin Luther King Junior's assassination the activists known as the Kings Bay Plow share seven entered the base armed with hammers crime scene tape baby bottles containing their own blood emptive court ruling devos will face no jail time and our education department will be fined one hundred thousand dollars in Georgia federal grand jury Thursday found seven Catholic Street Journal quote we run through the process of putting this debt burden on somebody but rides on their credit files it rides on their back for decades the time has come I'm I end and stop the Insanity Johnson said his high profile resignation came as a federal judge Thursday held Education Secretary Betsy Devos in contempt of court for violent Mr Zuckerberg what year and month did you personally I become aware of Cambridge analytica not you of all people can appreciate using person's past behavior in order to determine predict or make decisions about future behavior and in and action and practice and that they came together and took action to go onto kings bay and preach the word preach the word an indictment charging the US government crimes against peace the base is home to at least six nuclear ballistic missile submarines each of which carries twenty trident through the next but we are called to keep trying and we will do this together we have no other choice a pipeline the ACLU tweeted let this be a lesson to other states. If you criminalize protest we will Su- they said the trump administration's top student loan no nuclear weapons the activists said they were following the Prophet Isaiah's commend to beat swords into plowshares at this week's trial the defendants were barred from citing their religious fresh make decisions about Lebron I think we need to kind of dig into your past behavior and facebook's past behavior with respect to our democracy Mr as well as many of the plowshare seven you can go to our website at democracy now dot org and those are some of the headlines Assist Democracy now democracy now dot or the Warren piece reports it's still be survivors know their attendee actors Zoe stuckless was kicked out of the event after sure of the exact time but it was probably around the time when it became public I think it was around March of two thousand eighteen I could be wrong advertise them the incorrect election date no congresswoman you couldn't we we have even for these policies around the news thank you so much Martha Hennessy is the granddaughter of Dorothy Day the founder of the Catholic worker movement to see our recent interview with Legendary Peace Activists Liz mcallen show said Thursday he'll resign his position as the education department and will work for the cancellation of nearly one trillion dollars in federally administered student loan debt eight far I can push this in the next year onto your policy you know using census data as well could I pay target predominantly black zip codes anyone including a politician as saying things that can cause that is calling for violence or could risk imminent physical harm or voter run ads targeting Republicans in primaries saying that they voted for the green new deal sorry can you repeat that would I be Zuckerberg was grilled by lawmakers for its policy of allowing politicians to lie in political ADS Zuckerberg was called to Capitol Hill Wednesday to testify about vase works plans I mean he goodman as facebook said this week it will not fact check political answer how politicians to its usual content standards the social media giant CEO marks it alive that would be bad that's different from it being from from our position the right thing to do to prevent you don't know congresswoman share we discuss it after it after we were aware of what happened you announced recently one on your leadership team know about Cambridge Politica prior to the initial report by The Guardian on December eleventh two thousand fifteen congresswoman I official policy of facebook now allows politicians to pay to spread disinformation in two thousand twenty elections and in the future so I just WanNa know how I believe so and that some folks were were trucking it internally and I'm actually as you're asking this I I do think I love preach preach the word of peace and they're paying a huge price for that as you all know the activists will be sentenced within the next ninety days of Cambridge Analytica as an entity earlier I just I don't know if I was tracking how they were using facebook specifically when was the issue discussed with your board member Peter Thiel why you've named the daily caller a publication white a well documented with ties to white supremacists as an official fact checker for facebook congresswoman shirt uh-huh when did facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg become aware of Cambridge Analytica. I don't know if you don't know and did any route two to serve as a fact checker so you would say that white supremacist tied publications meat than five hours today we bring you highlights of the hearing which was chaired by California Congressman maxine waters in a minute you'll hear from Ohio Congressman Bridge Speedy who asked worthiness of content that politicians say the general principle that I believe that but you said you're not going to fact check might add we have if versity and inclusion thank you chairwoman waters Mr Zuckerberg I want to get through a number of questions diverse asset management fear maker standard for fact checking thank you congresswoman. I would say that we're not the one assessing that we actually don't appoint the independent fact checkers go through an independent organization called the independent fact checking network that has a rigorous standard for who they housing issues diversity inclusion in privacy insecurity diversity inclusion is very important to me it's personal for me had been here before or with facebook about the lack of diversity and inclusion discuss this repeatedly with your company over the past years and vice chair of the congrats fact checks political advertisements is that what you're telling me congresswoman yes in for specific things like that where there's imminent risk of harm more than forty six billion dollars on record in cash or cash equivalents and marketable securities are any of these funds managed congresswoman. I don't I don't know that this was the largest data scandal with respect to your company that had catastrophic impacts on the two thousand sixteen election you don't into asset management certainly a large industry as we know something like a seventy trillion dollar industry facebook has as with far right figures who advanced the conspiracy theory that white supremacy as a hoax did you discuss so called Social Media Bias Against Conservatives and do you believe run advertisements on facebook targeting Republicans in primaries saying that they voted for the green new deal. I mean if you're not fact checking political advertisements central trying to understand the bow congresswoman it depends on the context that it shows up organic post ads the question we're question in your ongoing dinner party it's simple yesterday now congresswoman in spin I'm talking about actual yes to democracy I believe that people should be able to see Burg about facebook's record on civil rights but we begin with New Year Congress member Alexandra Custody Cortes questioning Mark Zuckerberg skit to see Mr Zuckerberg I think your constituents or people in an election from seeing that you had lied so we can so you won't take down lies or you will take down lies I think it's just a for themselves what politicians that they may or may not vote for you won't take themselves so you won't you may flag that it's wrong but you won't take it down did you see a potential problem here with a complete lack of fact checking on political advertisements well congresswoman I think lying is bad and I think if you were to run an ad and suppression when we roll out the census suppression policy we will take that content so so so you will there is some threshold where you will you should have known better and maybe if you had real diversity or inclusion on your team somebody in that room would have said what standard the international fact checking network is the one who is setting that standard the gentlewoman from Ohio Business Badie is also the chair for the subcommittee on if there is a bias congresswoman remember everything that was in the Senate in the I'll move on can you explain saying love food again shoe for violations so let me ask you this do you know what redlining is yes okay then there is a consultant in opening statement you talked a lot about civil rights I think we should probably phrase it a little differently that you work with Chennault Black Caucus in the congressional black caucus for the record has had multiple meetings with your company and here we are again let let me get in I don't know how could you not know when you have employed the most historical the largest civil rights comp farm a big law firms that work on your legal cases around the country how many diverse owned or women on law firms are contract by facebook and right now the major nine that about this great study her work have you read it do you know what the recommendations where do you know when she issued the report yes or no we're doing when you looked at what you were doing in the house thing how you were red lining or using ZIP codes and to eliminate eight people from getting information now have you read the report that Laura Murphy sent to you you've talked a lot about diversity and you introduced discriminated against the percentage of African Americans are on facebook in comparison to majority folks do you know what the percentage is doc people using the facebook yes do you know what the percentage is are African Americans I don't because we don't collect the racist number just give me a number or range congresswoman I dunno I take that is that don't know how many women or minority partners work on these cases ends here what's fair I I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head I think I'll be able to do that I have a lot of questions I'm going to send to you that I'm not gonna be able to get through and I would like an answer 'cause this is appalling and disgusting to me who's on the Civil Rights Taskforce Cheryl Sandberg is the person who who's what civil rights okay we know shows not really civil rights so I'm trying to help came out in a report in the Pew Research Center that was sent to you so maybe you just don't read a lot of things that deal with civil rights or African Americans Rolling facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg by lawmakers and Capitol Hill Wednesday before members of the House Financial Services Committee many of them women who blasted Zuckerberg over facebook's policy of allowing gene about what was included today in diverse asset management was in it did you read that or congresswoman piece of legislation that I'm working on it was in the rights work is because as a result of the number of lawsuits that you pay an N. double ACP even Secretary Ben Carson Fouled Affair House mm-hmm me deal with issues that are major and this is what's so frustrating to me it's almost like you think this is a joke when you have ruined the lives of many people news emigrants and the Lgbtq community and you claim you're very serious about addressing and two thousand eighteen even before Congress you stated I quote we do not let me go to something you introduced you introduce Laura Murphy so you know who Laura Murphy is because she said her name right yes okay so you hired that is raising two Muslim boys and is pretty dark time in our world as I ask questions as well for years advocacy organizations as you assume the report okay tell me what the top three things work because I have it right here what were the top three things in our report somebody thought about lying in this committee politicians to lie in political advertisements California Congresswoman maxine waters chaired the proceedings in a minute we'll hear from California Congressman Katie Porter but this is Michigan Congressman Tim date or exclude or silence others is isn't going to be allowed on facebook I want to refer to a photo up on the monitor right now showing a man holding a rifle outside it's an internal task for you know who the do you know who the firm that you employ for civil rights is congressman. You get the happy deleting nobody's looking for here she's always theo and I don't think there's anything and I know so well about civil rights in her background so come better than that for me if we're GONNA talk civil rights the mosque intimidating fellow Americans Mr Zuckerberg yes or no does this meet your community standards congresswoman congresswoman this isn't about helping the politicians this is about making sure that people can see for themselves politician standards Mr Zuckerberg why should the very politicians who lead our country be held to a lower standard for truthfulness indecency than the average American so Mr Zuckerberg yes or no is it still your policy demand hate groups might have sending is yes face groups community standards natural I'm in a position right now to evaluate any given posts against all different standards that we have so white supremacist hate groups still regularly use the events pages to organize threatening protests in front of mosques and these protesters are often armed the hateful rallying this picture member Rasheeda to leave the thank you so much for being here I know this is going to be really hard in this setting but try to see me beyond just a congresswoman but also as a mother now have been pleading with you and your team to prohibit hate groups from using be events page which fuel violence against African Americans Muslims packet did you and your team review it I mean everybody's talked about your scholarly resume did you review the packet that was sent to you from this committee obviously no me sexiest oh hate groups on facebook if there's a group that their primary purpose or a large part of what they are doing is spreading hate we will ban them from the platform overall right now as it reads says quote we are committed to making facebook a safe place very good expression that threatens people has the potential to I'm only I'm only thinking well one of them was around housing ads which we've talked about the other was around setting up a civil rights task force and you go by the Chilean singer Victor Hotta this is democracy now I'm Amy Goodman as we continue with highlights from the more than five hour was planned on a facebook event page recently facebook has taking the step further by permitting politicians to violate the community and facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg being grilled by Congress member Choice Beatty New York Congressman Alex Sandra Cortez when we come back Congress members were to leave and bad diverse owned companies now guess are now congresswoman yes or no I I I don't I don't take that as a no you have a stable congresswoman I don't know the answer to shop jewelry packet let my time did you review the packet that went out in notification to you and your team reporter question in thirty seconds a kid who has are you will take down live so pretty simple yes or now it is hate speech it is hate and it's leading to violence and death threats in my office and I understand that folks are working on it right on your team but if it's leading to actual real violence so it is hate speech it is hate than an it's leading to violence and death threats in my office it's untruthful about fifteen thousand contractors watching murders stabbings suicides other gruesome disgusting videos for content moderation correct eight any injury in other words no harm no foul facebook messed up but it doesn't matter is that your position cleaning and never again plead that there is no liability and facebook when data breaches occur congresswoman facebook terms of service which release facebook from liability for users contract and common law claims congresswoman. I'm not familiar new unquote do you remember making that statement Congresswoman yes and facebook's privacy principles say one we give you control privacy to you own can delete your information and three we are accountable today can you affirm that base data privacy lawsuit in which your own warriors admit that users information was stolen that they the plaintiffs failed to articulate deep because of their work for your company is that correct congresswoman my understanding is we pay everyone including the contractors shortcut you have said quote we have a responsibility to protect our data and if we can't that we don't deserve to serve you different issue facebook's known as a great place to work free Food Ping Pong tables great employee benefits but facebook doesn't use its employees for the hardest jobs in the company silence the lady from California Ms Porter is recognized for five minutes Mr Zuckerberg as you know facebook can be sometimes an unkind place both toward my personal appearance and today apparently towards your haircut as a mother of teenage boy I just want to say thanks for modeling cares about user privacy and still holds itself to the standards in articulates in its public policies comes from we certainly care about certainly right that I'm CEO and I'm responsible for everything that happens in the company all them saying is that imagine that there are more pages this document doing facebook and federal court that consumers can't hold you liable for any of these promises because quote as plaintiffs admit they in every facebook user are bound by congressman a yes I believe that that's correct you pay many of those workers under thirty thousand dollars a year and you've cut them off from mental healthcare when they leave the company even if they have mend asleep proportional shareholder of facebook responsible for the legal arguments that your company makes you hire these lawyers will you commit to withdrawing this argument and nine minutes of supervised wellness time per day that means nine minutes to cry in the Stairwell while somebody watches them would you be ten months and I have already lost count of how many people have sat on exactly that chair and said one thing to me and to this Congress and then another thing in federal court I wanNA turn associated with the company at least fifteen dollars minimum wage and and markets and cities where there's a high cost of living that's a twenty dollar minimum wage we go out of Z. incredibly important to people and and super if that's true that you care about privacy and your hewing to these principles why are you with that specific legal argument well it's on it's on it's like therefore you you are arguing in federal court that the consumer the same benefits available to your workers congresswoman we work hard to make sure that we give good benefits to all the folks who are doing going to commit to spending one hour a day for the next year watching these videos and acting as a content monitor and only `accessing accessing I and I'm going to take that as a no for right now but I would like you to consider it I think you're pleading is inconsistent with your privacy principles and I think American people are tired of the sepulchre see I've been in Congress a congresswoman I'm not familiar with all the context here so it's not a lawyer so it's a little bit hard for me to weigh in on the on the as CEO and the willing facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg on Wednesday this is democracy now when we come back the crisis of homelessness in America we go to Oakland Robertson wait can I take your word of claiming my time according to one report I have and this is straight out of an episode of Black Mirror these workers get nine burke ruining my time I would appreciate yes or no would you be willing to act as a content monitor have that life experience I'm not sure that would best many major cities California's become the poster child for this economic and humanitarian disaster with growing encampments in Los Angeles and the bay area's more people are forced into the homelessness crisis threatening to destroy encampments increase police enforcement even jail homeless people but advocates California's already doing that criminal treats the state is home to twelve percent of the US population but half the country's unsheltered people as the crisis deepened so as the criminalization of homelessness one of these crackdowns is currently unfolding a massive Oakland encampment that democracy now visited just a few weeks ago just outside the Home Depot in East Oakland between busy by masterpass steady mob and crooked is is now homeless and Oakland this is democracy now I'm Amy Goodman we turn now to the crisis of homelessness in the United States which is on the rise candice elder founder of the Community Organizing Advocacy group the East Oakland collective we are in a huge lot that is privately owned that on house the sixty five dozen lobbyists and I wanted to ask about the timing of your announcement this week to invest one billion dollars into housing charity on the day before senator no congressman that's not what I'm so then you're saying you're not willing to do it. How many lobbyists are you on your payroll congressman? I don't know the close the encampment by the New Year but the people living there say the city is not offered them viable Housing Alternatives homelessness and Oakland has grown by nearly fifty percent in the past increasing efforts by city and state officials to crack down on in house people occupying Public Space President Donald Trump made headlines this month for tacking California's politicians over the residents have moved onto and they are vs trailers there are cars there are people living in their vans Serve our community for me to spend that much time is spent a long time and Mr Zuckerberg are you saying you're not qualified to be content two years we'll democracy now visited the East Oakland encampment earlier this month to speak to people that live there and their advocates about the housing crisis in the bay area we began with Elisa homelessness from laws against shelter people sitting on sidewalks to frequent sweeps of the encampments that have popped up on thoroughfares under freeways across the state cities testimony before this committee you may respondent writing my time has expired California Congress member Katie Porter and Michigan Congress member she to lead assures and tiny houses it's one of the largest and most visible encampments of at least ninety in Oakland but Tuesday city workers descended on the sprawling encampment click eared part of the site unhealthy people were forced to leave the area for the sweep which took two days the other part of the encampments expected to be cleared next week the city of Oakland has vowed to permanently goal mothers here we have senior citizens we have a large Latino and immigrant population here a lot of Spanish speaker -Fornia San Francisco Oakland so recent news has said that California has the most on house popular on talk about who lives here so it's a very multiracial encampment a lot of African American residents we have some area you will find the most concentrated numbers of our on house residents in California the bay area is experiencing a huge huge Oakland and Mosul between San Francisco Bay area particularly Oakland Berkeley in San Francisco in between La county particularly in the skin role we're still here but the community has grown significantly it is huge how many an housed people are there in Keller I in a good mix between men and women yeah so this community has been open for four to five years now the some of the original residents in Oakland which is a forty seven percent increase for us since the last point in time count humi advocates in other data from health street and just a short period of time really early in the morning produce numbers that there are about five to six thousand on sheltered people care organizations actually showed that there are more than nine thousand on House people in Oakland that is more of a realistic number because that counts vehicles the we are that's why we use the term on house because it covers the whole gamut of people facing housing insecurity so those numbers are high and we need used homeless unsheltered talk about the choice of words description do think it matters it definitely matters you know how we talk about the problems ears also listening Kampman suffers from other legal dumping so they are experiencing some issues but you know either the city will come pick it up or sometimes the Asian in the country which why we're seeing a lot of attention also note thinks that trump's rhetoric on cleanup California streets but between Jabu so much to point where we're probably about nick and nick with L. A. County since the latest point the city the city government to be realistic about those numbers so they gained applied the proper budget and resources these words on how streets inside of the freeway some one hundred Hon House people have been living for months sometimes years the people living in the canton that make their shelter and cars tents makeshift strike Taylor's accounts people living in there are these trailers is counts people who are couch surfing there are even if you have college students now who are writing how we talk about people matters so what I have learned from folks who are living the experience they do not like to term homeless must stay high trying to hide my stress because if people of the world trying to put me look West last night I had a talk more momma she died in as guy did she serve perfectly before she folks are pushed out onto the street so it really speaks to these discriminatory practices and policies in housing Angel Momma back from the grain we ain't got too much love because we live in Linden last days crime pays going could get you gotta strap these days all the time rapid transportation in part they are riding the bus you know at night in order just to have some type of shelter so doubled tripled in some cases people afford to live here anymore we need more renter protection we eviction defense a lot of people have been more about the racial disparities when it comes to people who are not housed so in the bay area particularly Oakland over seventy percents on the house here so we have a high rate of of living which includes very high rents so the the high rents wish have is being pushed out from certain neighborhoods you know in this influx you know of of the stem you know in these really high and there are some self built structures syllabi and then there's also people Zeno commuting cars and there's also animal's name what you see time count the top the counter happens every every year year and a half that counts the number of on House people on the so we have to fix the economic social in housing barriers in order to be able to address the homelessness crisis can you talk very low numbers as far as Thailand is a quarter African American but three quarters of the inhouse population yes yes in the the numbers of like such as winter protections such as a decades old history of red lining you know pushing black folks not being able to get you know housing loans agents will put it all into piles but so and then you see people here they're they're cooking gene they're they're burning their trash so even though it's early in the morning there's a lot going on relation is African American so in what is the population overall overall Oakland we are twenty eight percent so we're the baby got my drink g any game Litas house was donated to me from the Oakland School of arts has made a difference yes it has is actually a real house that was actually formed by some kids you know they actually put it together they brought it out put it back up so it it made a big difference Russian here in Oakland your name Marcus Bikes so do you live here at the encampment is you built this house or someone did for us in how many people live inside me and my daughter you talked about having animals so you can be safe what do you face in terms of safety convicted if you know from from the apartment they didn't have the proper legal resources are representation to even to fight it

facebook New York City congressman California Mr Zuckerberg maxine waters Ohio vice chair theo forty seven percent nine minutes five years five hour two years nine hundred twenty five billi one hundred thousand dollars forty six billion dollars
Brexit and Bannon

Gaslit Nation with Andrea Chalupa and Sarah Kendzior

54:06 min | 1 year ago

Brexit and Bannon

"And I'm Sarah Cancer the author of the bestselling essay collection the view from Flyover country and the upcoming book hiding in plain sight. I'm Andrea Chalupa a journalist. Unlisted filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller Mr Jones and Mrs Gasoline Nation. A podcast covering corruption in the trump administration and rising rising autocracy around the world. Today we are once again discussing the brexit debacle. If you want a in depth look at that from earlier in the year you could look at our February interview with journalists. Carol called Waller who talks about Cambridge Analytica Russia brexit corruption throughout the UK. And more more. Today we have an update on that and a brand new interview for you so Andrea. Do you want to tell everybody about that. Yes today on the show. We we have Dr. Emma Bryant a researcher specialized in propaganda in the twenty first century. She is absolutely brilliant. Were thrilled to have her on the show. She's working on a phenomenal book that we're going to have her backed for to talk about the propaganda machine and how authoritarians are using them an real case study under trump and other wannabe authoritarian authoritarian governments So today's discussion is on how the Far Rights Nigel charge. Steve Bannon Robert Mercer and so forth. How through their militarize propaganda firm Cambridge Analytica? They helped tip the election to Brexit and also Donald Trump in two thousand sixteen as we're always saying brexit and trump are the same crime and Bryant is going to break that down for us even even more to sort of walk us through this brave new world of militarized propaganda that exists on across all social media platforms through bought networks and so forth worth and how it's even reaching out to us. Through our television sets the advertisements we receive on television. All the technology's advancing in such a way that we don't we're increasingly not gonNA. It's GONNA be harder for us to to tell what when and how are being manipulated. This is a very dense. Deep dive discussion. The rest of is available on the Patriot. Bonus section because we do go further into to this because it's such a critical issue so we hope you enjoy the start of this conversation with Dr Emma Bryant a specialist Russian propaganda who's currently at Bard College and and She is somebody who is a must listen to voice on some of the greatest challenges and threats were facing the twenty first century for those who don't know the UK UK has a general election on December twelfth and Boris. Johnson's government has declined to publish an essential report on possible. Russian intervention and the Brexit vote and British politics. Generally and what. We've seen a big increase in Russian money going to Boris Johnson's Party and Boris Johnson. Johnson increasingly is appealing to xenophobia in the UK. In order to stay in power relying on methods as Dr Brian Point out today that Hitler the Nazis used to come to power and stay in power. Dr Emma Bryant is a researcher in specializes in propaganda and political communication. She has analyzed the coordination increasing impacts the digitalization of defense propaganda for her book propaganda and Counter Terrorism Strategies for global change. Her first book was bad. News for Refugees AGEE'S CO-AUTHORED WAY Greg Filing Donald which examined UK political media discourse ovation prior to Brexit the 2016 referendum that approved Britain leaving the EU and. She continues to work on the ladder for her forthcoming publications of propaganda and the referendum. She gained unparalleled access to interviews with senior executives at Cambridge Analytica and leave we've dot. Edu a far right organization which will be getting into today. She is currently writing the forthcoming co authored book. What's wrong with the Democrats media bias inequality and the Horizon Donald Trump? She spent eleven years researching S C L Group in Cambridge in Liga and was central and revealing their wrongdoing in two thousand eighteen. This research form the basis for important evidence admitted to the UK Digital Culture Media and Sport Committee inquiry into Fake News and the Senate Judiciary Committee in two thousand eighteen among other public increase. She is now consolidating. Recent research which straddles our interest in politics carrying the reproduction of inequality into a long-term book project tentatively titled Propaganda Machine and the Hidden Story of Cambridge Analytica and the digital influence industry. Welcome to gasoline nation. Thank you so much yes. Can I point. The title of the book is now updated to propaganda machine inside Cambridge Analytica and the digital influence industry at at the moment. I'm plowing ahead absolutely with that project. And it's hoped to be out in June next year which is quite exciting in time for all of the. US election in twenty twenty twenty. We get the message out the twenty twenty election another propaganda blitzkrieg election so to get a jump start on that I strongly only urge everyone listening to go watch the great hack on net flicks which features a lot of major experts that Dr Bryant is friends with that. I know quite well including Professor David Carroll and who sued Cambridge Analytica for his. The voter is US voter. The data which they stole and also the Orwell Prize winning investigative reporter Carol Walter a brilliant fearless reporter who was early on on connecting the dots on the corruption that row brexit and revealing that brexit and trump for the same crime we feature her on our gasoline nation episode episode from February Twenty Nine thousand nine hundred and that is of course called Brexit and trump are the same crime that episode of gestation and so Emma. You are in this little clique lick of fearless researchers. That are the David Against Goliath of the gold. Mine of the Twenty First Century which is data data whoever controls data controls the world. Because that is how you can emotionally manipulate people to do your bidding including stealing elections including terrorizing rising MINU submission and intimidating them and so forth. So let's get started. They need to the film as well as I was a senior researcher on that and people really must get out and watch that so important and there's an awful lot more that needs to be said that isn't in even in the film people haven't heard the half of it. Yeah that's the issue is. We've not scrape the surface and there was an entire influence industry that people believe no exists will tell us about Oughta give us the behind the scenes of the great hack. It's a lot to condense a lot to present in a documentary. You have to have that filmmaking. I in order to help people wrap their heads around this complex issue. So what are we missing out on Cambridge. Melinda were a digital analytics firm who were working on the trump campaign and worked before that on the brexit campaign. They were basically harvesting facebook data with the help of a Cambridge University. The academic who Dr Cogan who setup an APP to get people on facebook doing personality tests which obviously obviously people quite enjoy doing all these little games and tests that we things we find on facebook and this up basically harvested. I did all of your data all of your friends data and they were able to amass from only three hundred thousand quizzes that will complete it they managed to get ah eighty seven million facebook profiles. Wow what they then did was matched that onto personality tests and those included included a ocean which is basically looking at whether we're conscientious where we're open whether when neurotic ocean is an acronym for those qualities. Yes absolutely and didn't you wrote the system aspect is one. I'm going to focus on a little bit more if I may. Because that's the really interesting if you think about like what is a neurotic person like. They're very fearful. They might be paranoid so they were very interested interested in this particular quality and when you talk get people who on your ex. They were experimenting on what we'll drive that fear levels. What can we throw it? People that will make the more anxious more paranoid and so they were testing and experimenting on people like their lab rats triggering their worst fears about election hacking about Crooked Hillary A.. And so on basically trying to make people paranoid about you know conspiracy theories so this kind of stuff is very very sticky. Deke those kinds of people with the help of facebook data you can target to those people who will be most driven to fear with your messaging and that is where the information warfare element comes in because that is not a normal kind of campaign tool that is something that is designed to undermine all rational sensibilities and Cambridge Analytica GEICO. Were you know all about the dark arts of manipulation. They were all about the hawks so doing things that perhaps might might be challenging legally things that were about dismissing a right to have our own data or consent over. What's being done to us? They didn't they didn't care and what they would do. Is Anything that would win. I interviewed people from the company. Who told me they were comparing these tools to what Hitler did to the Jews? They were saying that trump was doing the same thing this was in my the same same thing with the messaging and the propaganda. This was in my evidence which was published by the British committee so this is really horrifying to think they would compare their own techniques that were used in twenty sixteen for trump to the same techniques that will be used I used by Hitler right. There basically blasting out propaganda dehumanizing trump's opponents so now's the time to tell everyone who is a founder Cambridge Analytica the white nationalist the white supremacist. Steve Bannon yes and I lost year. RIFF fields The earliest Emails of Steve Bannon with the brexit campaign where he was looped into planning by Oren banks. Who is the Britain's biggest political funder who was seeking to get the involvement of Cambridge Analytica in in the brexit campaign and was also asking for whether they could look into ways of getting funding via the US which potentially if they have done this? This would have been legal. Okay who is Aaron Banks. Aaron banks is Britain's biggest ever political funder he was was the person who put the millions behind the Levy you campaign which is the fall right campaign for Brexit it was the unofficial campaign that were two humane campaigns the official one was vote to leave and the unofficial campaign was was the EU and both Yousef those were driven on anti immigration propaganda but the leave e you one is the one that was headed up my night garage who is a extreme-right stream right figure in the United Kingdom who wears a suit and pretends he's just like your neighbor really is obviously part of the elite himself L. too but he's he presents himself like he's every man and yes even if the appeal with the campaign is trying to convince the people who have felt the worst of the brunt of the financial crisis so people in our blue collar jobs all across the UK people who are working costs communities. Those people are being targeted by people like Niger Garage. And it's being claimed and that the levy you come pain represents them and there was an awful lot of propaganda after the financial crisis which basic convinced people that it was migrants who are to blame for the financial crisis. We had a parade of experts from the Financial Services Industry and from the banks who were offering all the solutions after the financial crisis and they obviously don't want to take take responsibility for what happened and migrants became the scapegoat so we've had communities have been destroyed as services were cut back and people are feeling the pain of unemployment of the cutbacks that have been experienced. And they're blaming thing Mike grants and they're being encouraged to do so by campaign slightly Vigo Hey gas nation listeners. Time to talk about life insurance insurance most people know open. Enrollment is decision time for healthcare coverage. But it's also the perfect moments reassess. Your Life Insurance needs to properly. They provide for their families. Most people need ten times the life insurance coverage than they get through their jobs which means that your employer life insurance is leaving you under insured. That's that's where policy genius can help policy. Genius is the easy way to shop for a life insurance plan. That's not tied to your job in minutes. You could compare quotes from top insurers to find your best price once you apply. The policy genius team will handle all the paperwork and red tape. The life insurance you buy through policy genius stays with if you even if you leave your job when you're looking at your workplace benefits this month make sure to double check your life insurance options then go to policy genius Dot Com. I'm get quotes and apply in minutes policy. Genius the easy way to compare and buy life insurance and Aaron banks himself put nine nine million pounds nine million parents which I know that doesn't same big numbers in American terms but this is the biggest ever political donation that has ever been made in the UK and of course Karaoke had waller has been looking heavily into whether many came from and there's been so little transparency transparency. He's obviously been investigated by the Financial Services Agency. Authority multiple investigations into our banks have still not turned up the original source of that money. It seems very suspicious. Considering that the emails that you revealed show Oh Aaron banks hitting up Cambridge ANALYTICA for cash for fund raising help and Cambridge. ANALYTICA is founded not just by Steve Bannon but his patron at the time. Robert Mercer. The billionaire the far-right American oligarch and so if Aaron banks has nine million alien pounds sitting around of his own money that he could put in to this far-right leave dot. Edu Effort launching him into the stratosphere of the historic highest donor of all time the U. K.. Why the hell would he need fundraise? Then well let's very good question. He he was basically broke the time. All the evidence shows that his diamond mines weren't particularly functional and weren't making an awesome money. He had to take out loans and been bailed out in his his company. So it's very strange that suddenly he has this huge amounts some money to put to political causes so we need very badly to know whether money came from and unfortunately we haven't had a holistic investigation investigation into the brexit campaign without that. You have all these little tiny investigations of one thing here another thing and unfortunately you don't then get to see the entirety of what happened when your investigating what might be you know. Questions of large scale corruption or funding of campaigns potentially coming from other countries. This is a huge investigation. That is needed. That is encompassing different jurisdictions and so forth and in order to do that you need the politicians to get behind it and to force a lease inquiry. Unfortunately we haven't had the political will to do that yet and what the problem is that. What's the media have really not got behind this? They've not been shouting for the investigation. The public don't know the truce of the facts that have been revealed old in the British using quiry and the other investigations and getting away with it and experts like yourself and Carol cod wallet or are are left off of the BBC where they could broadcast this to the public. We have this kind of fake balance which the BBC engages and there was a story just the other day on the sixth of November I think published by the BBC where they were talking about the Cambridge illicit fair and they describe nobody has the data was claimed to have been sold to Cambridge Analytica. Well this is stuff. That's been proven for a long time. And they still just saying it was claimed and then including the company's denials well that's unacceptable when we have huge amounts of evidence and the ICAO. The Information Commissioner's office who oversee Richardson nor have produced stints reports the British fake news inquiry in that final report. They revealed that looks like Cambridge. Olympic is data was actually access from Russia. Well how the hell was. It's not happening. We need a much fuller explanation. And we absolutely have to enact policy that will ensure election action to secure rapidly and the trouble is. We don't have time. Because we have an election on the twelfth of December which Boris Johnson has obviously obviously delayed and then try to shut down parliament. He's now got this election coming which is probably going to win. Because he's as hard. The government basically has put two thousand pounds into pumping out propaganda in favour of brexit coming from the government itself so this basically is selling him and his deal and all of this so he's guessing an extra leg up by the fact that you know he's empower gala unfortunately the BBC doesn't seem to want to tell the facts as they stand. They have equivocated constantly because they are nervous about brexit and the problem is that both of our political main political parties have constituencies and their voters voters many of them actually voted for Brexit. And unfortunately there's an awful lot of nervousness around it. We have people people making the argument that basically the people have spoken and this was democracy and they don't want to undermine that but this is a false argument because obviously the election the referendum was basically stolen it was fraudulent and we have huge mats proof of that but unfortunately fortunately the lobby for brexit against migration in the UK has been built up over many many years mentioned before for the book on Bad News for Refugees which are rights that was prior to the refugee crisis even and prior to Brexit. And even back then we had all of these. I think tanks that were policing essentially the media and two minutes you say something that questions. This narrative the migrant prince sought blame. You have these think tanks obviously are very well funded and pushing adds huge amounts of propaganda into the media. They have their spokespeople people and unfortunately a lot of the time. The media haven't been ready to identify the nature of the sources that presenting. So they they won't necessarily tell you that this is anti immigration. Think tank or that. The money is coming from those kinds of elite sources. They will just present them as they wished to be. Heard and that is deeply crop the Masek because it's not. They're not doing that job. We had a American an American far-right idiot on British. Telly being interviewed. I forget his name one of these far-right clowns and he got destroyed. He got destroyed droid and we can play a clip of that turning sir on Judeo Christian values in this look what are the values that studying. It's back on I. I'm not inclined to continue in an interview with a person is badly motivated as you as an interview or so. I think we're done here. I appreciate at your time. All right well thank you for your time and for showing that anger is not part of America. Not Mr Shapiro. We'll say goodbye but what really surprised me. Is I feel like you're British. Newscasters or your British interviewers. They have no problem taking are idiots to task but they seem a little bit reluctant. It didn't taking your idiots to task. That's the trouble is these idiots are often quite popular and the problem. Is that the broadcasters. Generally we are a lot better in the UK. Then I would say they all in the US because they're not allowed to be partisan in the same way the the US broacasters on however that does also mean you get this false balance quite often. So when it comes to the Brexit side side of things they'll be presenting the argument that Oak Cambridge Analytica. This was claimed and then this was denied. Well I'm sorry facts to a proven in the end. Okay so you can no longer keep saying that however in our press we have a very very highly partisan on press and the Daily Mail has the highest circulation and this is what people read and consume and this has been the case for a long long time that this extremely far-right press has been producing disinformation. And when I say disinformation I mean disinformation fake fake news for many years and gets away with it whereas Carol cadwalader oviously is inundated by people like arum banks and soul on her critics many critics whenever she puts an article or opens her mouth. You know. She's he's currently facing legal action. Can I mean. Can you imagine that the policing that they do with the funding that they have to the media this way. There's no way that would actually be allowed in the US with the First Amendment protections but in the UK. You have things like defamation and libel to worry about and so people have to be very very careful what they say. And this was revealed as well in Chris. WYLIE's release Chris. Wiley is the whistle blower from Cambridge. He's a young kid died hair punkish punk rock style. He was an employee of Cambridge Analytica. And he blew the whistle he. He testified before your government on their corruption and manipulation and recommended other people for the government to speak with including Brittany Kaiser who is an interesting character. Herself that we can get into. I'm so what did Chris Wiley do for Cambridge Politica he basically was this contractor with aggregates. IQ So he sort of started. The project on the gathering of the facebook data rooms are. Here's a contractor. Not An employee. Yes he was working working with aggregate so I do and he was there at the very birth of the Cambridge Analytica company but seal group the parent company had been around ran for a long time before that and it was full on militarize propaganda. That's how Cambridge Linda was born. Seal Group yes. I had known them years so before. Oh Chris Wind even joined the firm I was interviewing. Seal Group the parent company and they were already developing a lot of these kinds of tools and targeting using personality and so on. They were experimenting before he came along. Basically these people then wanted to set up a company that would they get them into the American market because that was seen as highly lucrative as they're also as a route to getting more commercial work so they were setting up this new company what I was going to say about Carol cadwalader in the county and obviously Chris whiny headset in his recent book that the story around Cambridge analytic working with Pailin. Tia got sensit- by The Guardian due to Eric Schmidt's writing in uncomplaining about his daughter. Getting mentioned as she apparently made that introduction so the nervousness I think of even the Guardian which I did the best reporting ever. Amin Cower. CADWALADER was amazing I was there for that whole period. She's fantastic and she's so supportive supportive of her sources protective of them but no journalistic organizations are free if these kinds of threats and unfortunately what we've seen is asleep multibillion dollar expansion of the influence industry these companies are making money off of digital analytics of lobbying of reshaping our social world really. These companies are so powerful and at the same time. Journalism is in decline because there is not enough money going into doing good reporting of the kind we saw last year. And what's very sad is what Sarah and I always talk about at least privately. Anyway is our fear that journalism just in our lifetimes alone has completely crumbled and you have so many excellent journalists who were pushed out in two. You totally different industries. Excellent editors that are forced to work in different into a new industries and one fear. We have all this talent could easily get scooped up to working to think tanks and at the think tanks. They get absorbed in that culture of that. Think tank and I think tank could be funded by some Blood money oligarch somewhere aware. Who wants to push a certain narrative under some gleam of respectability so it is very dangerous? And that is the cautionary tale of Brittany Kaiser. A young woman that that is at the center of the Great Hack. She went from working and human rights. She worked for the Obama campaign on Obama's facebook facebook page in two thousand eight. She was part of that. Social Media. Feel good idealism driven revolution that Obama brought in as the first social media president and then with the two thousand eight crash the fallout of that the was her family. Her family hit hit hard times a few years later. It was a major tragedy for her family. How they were economically hit by the fall of two thousand eight and so she was was forced to get a job? You know not in human rights which barely pays but she got scooped up by the very charming Alexander Knicks the CEO of Cambridge Regina Liga. WHO said to her? I WanNa get you drunk and hear your secrets and what he wanted to do to your point was here. You had this militarized propaganda firm that was doing doing heavy heavy business and they wanted to have an arm which was Cambridge el-agha that could sell itself to the American political class. US In the British political class and here comes handsome Alexander Knicks wooing. A young impressionable vulnerable woman who needed a career needed stability and and had the credibility of having worked as part of Obama's big social media wave in two thousand eight and scooped her up and she became central central central to that entire operation and she in fact was the link bringing together Cambridge analytic on the trump campaign. She completely flipped. I know obviously Britain. Hi is I would say that. She certainly was in a very very difficult position and moved to work for this new company. Go to great great Alpha. But she's also very intelligent person who also owns her mistake and no near. Why think what she was doing? What she was was getting involved with? There are also other people in that company that we're not focusing on enough. The problem is we're spending all this time talking about the whistle whistle blowers and we're not talking about the people who are getting away with it right now. What we really need to be doing is focusing on them and horrifying spread of that company around the world and by the way that was one of the smallish companies in this kind of business? They're a hell of a lot more that during really talks stuff like what like which companies one of the issues with Cambridge tunnel or as well is how the company was established established with all of these different networks. It basically means that There'a partners out there that we we may not even know about so so the issue is how do you actually track these companies. How'd you expose what they're doing? How do you regulate something? You cannot see we. We don't even know whether we find the campaigns yet so this is a monster and what we're not doing is actually addressing that monster. We're refocusing on the facebook data and obviously facebook is massively culpable here. But there's also a massive industry astray which exploded Jersey war on terror partly because of the funding that was going to these companies from our military's military's but also from the availability that same period of the data that was being made available through social media. Also through mm-hmm the paranoia about. How do we kanter this threat? How do we respond in in this kind of information space space? There was a huge opportunity for building these companies and it wasn't just that industry it was also lobbying expanded expended and you have of course also citizens united plowing huge amounts of funding that making not available to all of these packs folks in the states so all of this massive gloss of money has resulted in the expansion of an industry at the same time as social media expanded and our government so obviously wanted access to social media data. We saw through snowden that they were harvesting huge maxa social social media data themselves in order to use them for influence campaigns. So this whole period all of this coincided together to create gates the monster that we have seen only a glimpse off through the case of Cambridge Analytica. And we haven't even seen the full Cambridge analytic a story yet unveil itself. That's coming in my book and I promise you it's going way. Beyond what the whistle blowers came out with thing. We're only actually there in the company for a short shortwhile so I was basically a round interviewing them for about ten years before I've helped reveal a small section of what I knew through through the inquiry. And what we really understanding is this requires a two level response. We need to redress the platforms. We need to think about not just facebook but also instagram. What's up you know? All of these social media organizations and how they are going to invade us we have to be one step ahead but we also need to be thinking. That's an industry. That isn't he from guessing. Talked about the moment we've moved on from Cambridge. MM pretend that occur far too and why is that. Why do you think that might be? I think it's because our governments were actually culpable in creating this and our politicians used these companies and they want to have those capabilities available to them. Otherwise why would they not act on. They influence industry. Why would they not try to regulate it? Wow so you're basically echoing. What Andy Greenberg of wired magazine Kazini said to us in regards to cyber warfare generally and how destructive cyber warfare is it's like a nuclear bomb in some sense and Andy? Andy was saying that the United Government is reluctant from what he's heard to put any sort of safeguards to protect us and cyber warfare because they want to be able to use these capabilities. Yep I mean to be fair. There have been some efforts as well to get the money. The issue is the money Senator Whitehouse. The House is actually proposed. A Democrat yes indeed for post an excellent solution which would make it very very difficult for them to set up these kinds of shell companies and funnel dark money around but unfortunately I think that's isn't moving forward. I wonder why the problem here is that this goes beyond data okay. The data made something available but the infrastructure to create the monster. This propaganda machine. This extensive network of huge leave. Well funded companies is obviously also the lobbying industry the street just massively Grosz as well as the money which Jane Mayer so eloquently and diligently has revealed in her work and the gross. If this is something we need to tackle in multiple different ways so the data is getting used by companies that can hide. Why can they hide? We need to make sure that that can't happen. Otherwise we have no hope of dealing with the situation with regards to privacy and consent and the abusive all all social world without question on the topic of dark money. Let's go back to Aaron banks the bankroller of leave e you. He he had as I believe Carols reporting points out. Aaron banks had quite a few meetings with Russian politics and I believe even Kremlin officials in the elite up to the Brexit vote. That was her stuff really. Vote Mind but some I can certainly talk a little better boats. How Cambridge Analytica were doing work? Doc All across Eastern Europe and also were pitching campaigns in Russia and with Russian oil companies. Jason so on the conflicts of interests that with all also deeply worrying and we still don't know how data was being accessed From Russia I think that in itself is really concerning considering these are the people who will running the digital side of the trump campaign these people who had the American voters data stored in the UK. And they were matching its onto that facebook data which seems to have been access. That is really the weekly concerning in itself. Now the money side of it with Aaron banks and so on. We still don't know where he got his money from but the fact that he was repeatedly meeting with Russian officials and so on I. It's very troubling. I can't go into that in any further detail. Because I don't know more information about it and I think the problem is that only the authorities could investigate that really and we haven't got the political will l. to drive them to do it. No and also Boris Johnson suppressed a report on Russian interference in Brexit. Let's lutely just this last week. Showcasing being a parent Nathan Conservatives have been receiving what looks like millions from Russian sources. We don't know just because someone's Russian doesn't mean A bad or anything. I think some of these people who are mentioned in British citizens. So we want to be careful with Assis- and not jump to conclusions because our national security apparatus has suddenly drawn attention to something however You know we need access to that report in order to evaluate. What is their answer known for certain whether Boris Johnson poses a security risk? Oh Oh he absolutely does. I mean even Boris Johnson when he opens his mouth he poses a security risk. Indeed I mean the guy has hijacked dodgeball crecy. As far as I'm concerned and the British people didn't vote for him. The British people didn't even vote to resume and when she came to power was. Because was David Cameron up previous. Prime Minister had resigned after the referendum so wearing a complete vacuum of democracy at the moment and none of the rules also changed. So you know. It's highly likely that Russia will be targeting us again in the upcoming election. We now have the GDP. Oh Oh so. We're in a slightly more protective position than the US when it comes to data but the problem with all of this enforcement because if you got the influence industry still very hidden how do you know what they have and how they're using it. You perhaps have some cooperation operation now from facebook but nowhere near enough and we've seen how completely pathetic the responses have been all they want to do is to put the room and tries to cover things up and how can any votes in the US. GRISSOM have any face that their data is secure secure. We are basically being on social media and being online browsing and so on is compulsory in our society now and we have an extensive surveillance influence network everywhere we go in our phones in our homes we have the new Amazon ring policing on neighborhoods and facial recognition technologies targeting us increasingly. It's a disturbing Mr Bing dystopia in firemen especially when you can't trust what's happening with that data and people should not necessarily be satisfied white with a situation where they are required to consent which by the way in America. The moment they don't even require all consents against take off dates or office but even this isn't really enough because the problem is the people can't the jets this social world. The issue is also that people can't anticipate the consequences. Now we know difficult sense to be enough. You need to know what you're consenting to you and there's no way for an ordinary person to understand the complicated ways that some foreign power or some dimissed elite could abuse that data because why would we have to think about on a daily basis. You know we have enough to worry about the issue is like if you're consenting to give your data to a health company or an insurance company reading the small print with every decision that you make on this and you can't be expected to have a degree in information warfare in order to anticipate the hostile attack tactic come no without question. We've opted into big brother as consumers. I don't remember getting that memo. I don't think I did did. I don't think any of US did. And they say a well. You know everybody's doing all of this stuff all the time consensually but you know what it's not really sort of suddenly appeared in a world without really understanding what we were getting ourselves into. When people were playing games like Farmville? They weren't thinking about data being taken and sold. This is abuse if it was any other kind of situation commercial initial situation. You would be demanding your money back and unfortunately it's very very difficult for us to rain Nitin now. We need eight people like Elizabeth Warren for example to come in and break up facebook. Unfortunately you're going to be seeing a hell of a lot more propaganda from from that company as those responsible politicians try to leverage their political power in order to help us police. This problem blow. Is it possible to live in a world where posting photos on line connecting with old friends over some social media platform. Is it possible. People not to have your data harvested is at an option anywhere online well. They're all social networking platforms that respect data privacy and so on but the problem is that we're not all on them and in order for you to benefit from having a social network you need all of the people to be there so that's why facebook obviously is very difficult to escape because we don't want to leave off friendship networks six and go and sit on a platform where there's nobody there. This is why we have to enable some kind of data portability so the ability for us to take data with us on friendship networks making these platforms interrupt. Ruble perhaps and the Electronic Frontier Foundation have been developing ideas about. How one might do that while protecting people's privacy the issue is that facebook needs to become competitive in order to do that you have to be able to create viable competitive so networks where you can take your data and move move to this other platform at the moment? We don't have that ability because facebook polices the data and has and also would be quite complicated she to do it because you need to obviously be able to know that you're not taking your data and giving it to somebody who's going to abuse it further further so we know that these platforms are safe and without regulation. We can't do that so I think the problem another missile. We haven't moved very far since the revelations lost yea in addressing these kinds of problems and half of that is being because because companies like facebook have been basically fighting back can lobbying and putting pr and disrupting that process. And of course course making political caissons we gotta remember that our politicians are also very closely tied to this thing and there were elections coming coming up so thinking as well a little bit about how facebook these kinds of companies capture politicians is also really important aspect at this without question. So what was really interesting. Is How Cambridge Analytic Twenty sixteen targeted the same states that Paul manafort himself targeted when he shared voter data with a known Russian agent. Kim Nick his longtime partner in Ukraine and and those states were Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania which swung to trump defying all the major respected credible polls and in Cambridge. ANALYTICA was there in Michigan Wisconsin Pennsylvania on the precinct level on the micro local targeted level bowl bombarding voters that they had deep psychological profiles on bombarding them with blogs videos and memes and other things driving the whole whole trump crooked. Hillary rally cry what he was always repeating at rallies. Crooked Hillary and repeating on twitter Crooked Hillary Cambridge analytic blasted bat hyper local precinct level which is incredible. And of course all of that was the experiments that I was just talking about with new Arctic's so this is the kind of messaging that was being produced by the repack. Make America number one that was extremely extremely dreamily frightening to people who already have neurotic conditions so so on so this is the type of propaganda that was also being put out The NRA don't forget and Cambridge idealistic had the deal with the array. So you can imagine the kind of role that they heard created for themselves themselves all across the US politics and moving everything into this extremely terrorizing people as they were running these campaigns. And I don't think we've seen anything on this kind of scale before and particularly it's concerning as well with the NRA connections to to Russia and the trips that they were taking to Moscow and so on and the donations that were being made. I mean the whole thing with the NRA hasn't been explode enough. And I go into this in great detail in my book. What else should we be aware of when it comes to the NRA and Cambridge on? Linda I co- going to that too much much because I'm saving it for the ball and be one of those. We Make Fun of those people. I'm sorry but yeah sorry but I think the problem is that people own really thinking about this. In an interconnected way they think about the trump campaign and walk Cambridge ambridge analysts. You could did for them well. The trump campaign was one small part of this that you've also got the packs and you've got the NRA and so on and these other other deals that they they were doing and they want just gathering facebook data they were gathering data and lots of other ways which I go into the in the book and this is why we need you too. Have a more comprehensive. Strategy is because we can't trust these companies and we can't see what they're doing most importantly there's no transparency transparency relating to the industry. Or how its funded so you know. How can we protect ourselves without any transparency a tool how can journalists do in Europe without the available data on you know how these companies are operating but raises an awful lot of really really problematic questions agents and Cambridge also service the RNC in two thousand sixteen so with the RNC data oviously? They were taking that day tour and enriching Ching that with all of the different data that they had gained from facebook and twitter all their other data sources many many data sources in order to you. Use that for their analytics modeling. They were also modeling things. Like what kinds of media people consuming. So they know the type type of media that you trust in order to get that propaganda to you. So it wasn't just about pumping things is facebook. That is just one part of it. There were also experimenting with addressable TV. which is something? That hasn't really been talked about much now addressable. TV is particularly interesting because a lot of Americans are seeing political ads on the televisions now. That is an area that has expanded massively and basically that means you can micro talk targeted advertising to people in their living rooms on the TV. You're taking all of that data from their TV watching surveilling TV TV watching. And I think people don't know that that's happening and you can match that to the data that you're collecting from facebook and so on and people think of TV ads being the traditional kind of advertising. And they're not really worrying about surveillance in that of that kind and as we have moving into sorts of the five G. World. I think we need to be thinking far more about the different kinds of data that aw available and how it can all be networked together is not just about your mobile phone. It's it's about everything in your life. Well we can't wait to have you on your book because out. 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Cambridge facebook Cambridge Analytica Brexit US United Kingdom government Cambridge Analytica Boris Johnson Russia Aaron Banks Donald Trump Dr. Emma Bryant Britain Sarah Cancer Cambridge Analytica Russia America ANALYTICA EU
Democracy Now! 2021-01-11 Monday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:02 min | Last month

Democracy Now! 2021-01-11 Monday

"From new york this is democracy. Now well sadly. The person's joining executive branch is a deranged unhinged dangerous president of the united states and only a number of days until we can be protected from him but he has done something so serious that there should be prosecution against house speaker. Nancy pelosi is threatening to quickly. Impeach president trump. If vice president. Mike pence doesn't support removing him from office for inciting supporters to storm the capital. We'll speak to new york university. Professor ruth pandya author of the new book. Strongmen how they rise why they succeed how they fall. I want to remind everyone that in january two thousand sixteen when he was on the campaign trail he said i could stand on fifth avenue and shoot someone and wouldn't lose any followers. This was for me turning point. It meant that he was giving us a message that he considered himself to be above the law. Plus we look at big tech response to the capital insurrection. Twitter has permanently banned. Donald trump the messaging app parlor has gone offline after amazon. Google apple withdrew support and shop by has removed old stores affiliated with trump. All that and more coming back. Welcome food democracy now. Now dot org the quarantine report. I'm amy goodman momentum's building to remove president trump from office following the violent attempted coup last wednesday that an angry mob of trump backed insurrectionist storm the capital resulting in five deaths house. Democrats are introducing a resolution formally calling on vice president. Mike pence to invoke the twenty-fifth amendment house speaker. Nancy pelosi says if pence does not move to do so. The house will proceed with impeachment for the second time and trump single term pence's reportedly not ruled out using the twenty fifth amendment california congress member. Ted lieu said an article of impeachment with at least two hundred. Ten sponsors in the house will be introduced today. The draft resolution sites quote incitement of insurrection. Meanwhile two republican senators have joined calls for trump to resign alaska. Senator lisa murkowski and pennsylvania's pat toomey. Who spoke on. Nbc's meet the press sunday finding the best way for our country jackets for the president to resign and go away as soon as possible. The president spiral down into a kind of madness That was different republican. Senators ted cruz and josh hawley are also facing increasing pressure to resign over there. Obstruction of the certification of electoral votes. Over five thousand lawyers and law students have signed a petition urging their disbarments as fear grows up an increasingly unhinged trump house speaker. Nancy pelosi told her caucus friday. She'd spoken to general mark. Milley chair of the joint chiefs of staff about safeguards that are in place should trump seek to initiate a nuclear attack twitter permanently remove president donald trump from its platform friday citing repeated violations of twitter's terms of service and the risky would further incite violence ahead of joe biden's inauguration january twentieth. The ban came a day after trump posted this video message to his twitter. Feed do all of my wonderful supporters. I know you're disappointed. But i also want you to know that our incredible journey is only just beginning. Twitter's move to permanently. Banned trump came amidst a wave of suspensions and bands from other social media sites including facebook instagram. Snapchat youtube tiktok read it and shop. Affi- meanwhile apple. Google and amazon web services ended their support for the social media network parlor over the weekend. Which bills itself as twitter without rules. The company say parlors managers have consistently failed to halt threats of violence and calls for armed insurrection on the site. Parlor was co founded by republican donor trump supporter. Rebecca mercer daughter of hedge fund billionaire robert mercer and in another move from big tax the payment processing company stripe cut ties with the trump campaign which has continued to fundraise saying the trump campaign violated. Its policies against encouraging. Violence will hosted debate later in the broadcast over twitter permanently. Barring donald trump more information emerging about the domestic terrorists behind the january six insurrection that the capital over the weekend authorities arrested eric macho and larry brock who photographed in the senate chambers wearing tactical gear and carrying plastic handcuffs. Macho carried a pistol on his hip others arrested. Include cleveland grover meredith junior. Who threatened to shoot house speaker. Nancy pelosi and the head on live. Tv arkansas. Pro gun activists. Richard barnett who boasted of looting mail from pelosi's office and west virginia state lawmaker. Derek evans who live. Tim stealth storming the capital or robert keith. Packer of virginia was arrested. After he was filmed wearing a shirt emblazoned with the words camp auschwitz and work makes you free a reference to the nazi death. Camp also arrested was doug jensen who was filmed chasing a black police officer up the stairs of the capitol and trump supporting queuing. On conspiracy theorist jacob anthony chancellor also known as jake ainsley who posed for photos on the senate day carrying a spear and wearing a headdress made of coyote skin and buffalo horns details have emerged about the death of roseanne. Boy lend a thirty four year old cuban on trump supporter from georgia who is trampled by the mob. Is it storm. The capital boylan was photograph wednesday carrying a gadston flag. Revolutionary warriors emblem of a rattlesnake with the caption. Don't tread on me. The southern poverty law center is demanding an investigation into the republican attorney general's association which up robo calls urging trump supporters to join the january six insurrection in washington dc. The group is headed by alabama attorney. General steve marshall on sunday hundreds of police officers lined the streets of washington dc in a funeral procession for brian sick nick. The capitol police officer killed when marauding trump domestic terrorists hit him in the head with a fire extinguisher. Sick neck with a military veteran who later became an opponent of the iraq war and george w bush and was an outspoken supporter of president trump. A second capital police officer died over the weekend by suicide. Fifteen year veteran howard leaving good reportedly killed himself saturday on sunday. President trump ordered the flag above the white house to be flown at half-mast to honor the capitol police officers. He took the step three days after house speaker. Nancy pelosi lowered the flag over the us capital. And it's publicly said nothing about their deaths. Meanwhile the capitals attending physician is warning members of congress they may have come in contact with someone infected with corona virus as they spent our sheltering in a protective 'isolation room as trump supporters rampaged through the capital video shows several republican lawmakers refusing to wear face masks inside the cramped space. This comes as the united states reported over. Three hundred thousand new covid nineteen cases for the first time friday as the death. Toll is nearing three hundred. Seventy five thousand americans. Daily new cases are on the rise in almost every state as frustration mounts over the slow rollout of the corona virus vaccine. President-elect joe biden said. He'll release all available vaccines when he comes into office. But some health experts warn the strategy could backfire if authorities failed to administer second doses in a timely manner. New york has loosened rules in recent days. Around who's eligible for vaccines after reports of medical providers throwing out doses because they could not find patients who matched governor cuomo's strict vaccination guidelines teachers pharmacy workers who interact with the public. And new yorkers seventy five years and older are now able to get vaccinated. The javid center is set to become a mass vaccination center here in new york city and related news. Data suggests large numbers of frontline workers including up to forty percents to frontline workers in los angeles county and sixty percent of home care. Workers in ohio are refusing the shot. Experts say more efforts are needed to understand the reasons behind this and to counteract the uncertainty around the world global coronavirus cases have topped ninety million with deaths approaching two million in britain cases. Top three million with over eighty one thousand deaths london mayor. City-khan says london is at a crisis point and has declared a major incident as hospitals risk becoming overwhelmed. Japan said it found a new variant of the corona virus and four passengers who recently arrived from brazil authorities say similarities to those identified in britain and south africa but are still looking into whether it causes more severe illness. China's to city south of beijing officials rushed to contain its biggest outbreak in six months. Iran's supreme leader ayatollah khomeini announced. He's banning corona virus vaccines from the us and the uk. Cuba said friday. It signed a deal with iran to transfer the technology for its covid nineteen vaccine candidate and will carry out trials. In iran earlier federal prosecutors are accusing honduran president. Juan orlando hernandez of taking bribes from drug traffickers and ordering local armed forces to protect cocaine. Labs and shipments emotion filed in new york friday quotes hernandez saying he wanted to quote. Shove the drugs right up the noses of the gringos blyth flooding. The united states with cocaine under unprecedented anandas has been a loyal ally to the us receiving the support of the obama and trump administration's despite longstanding accusations of human rights violations and involvement with drug cartels indonesia search and rescue operations. Continue after a boeing seven thirty-seven five hundred aircraft carrying over sixty passengers crashed into the java. Sea saturday just minutes. After taking off from the capital jakarta authorities on sunday said they'd found parts of the plane and its black boxes with no sign of survivors. Among those on board were three babies and seven children. it's still unclear what triggered the crash secretary of state. Mike pompeo said the us will designate. Yemen's who the rebels as a terrorist group aid groups warned the designation will only deepen the world's worst humanitarian crisis by deterring outside actors from engaging with the group and carrying out a transactions. The move could also hinder efforts of the incoming biden administration to reestablish diplomatic links with iran which has ties to the huskies and caregiver. Stan said jaipur off declared victory in a snap presidential election that was called after protests toppled the government in the fall. Jumper off was serving. Jail sentence for kidnapping provincial governor a charge. He denied before protesters sprung him. Free in september and he was installed as both prime minister and preliminary results show. He received around eighty percent votes in sunday's election with a turnout of around forty percent and economic news. The us lost one hundred. Forty thousand jobs in december jobs held by women mostly latina and black women account for the net loss with restaurant and bar worker suffering the highest numbers. This comes as the guardian reports. Nearly every state has failed to meet federal requirements distribute enhanced unemployment benefits within three weeks to most recipients benefits for some fourteen million people expired on or before december twenty six a day before president trump signed the latest stimulus bill into law leading to lapses. Joe biden's unveiling his proposal this week to provide trillions of dollars and pandemic relief funds which includes plans to increase direct relief to two thousand dollars per person biden spoke friday as formally introduced the newest members of his economic team. We need more direct relief flowing. The families small businesses including finishing the job of getting people that two thousand dollars relief direct payment. Six hundred is simply not enough when you have to choose between paying rent putting food on the table keeping the lights on in cabinet news. Joe biden will nominate former career diplomat. William burns to head. The cia burns us president of the carnegie endowment for international peace and served in the us foreign service for over three decades during president obama's administration he was involved with talks that led to the landmark iran nuclear deal which trump later unilaterally withdrew from in an essay last year burns wrote about trump and the elections quote. If he loses. I doubt that he will suddenly embrace the traditional bipartisan commitment to effective transitions at worst till seek to contest or undermine the result burns wrote the washington post is reporting trump pressure georgia's top elections investigator to find the fraud in another phone call. He made to georgia officials and attempt to overturn election. Results experts say the call could constitute obstruction of justice or other criminal violations in related news. The wall street journal reported white house. Officials pushed atlanta's top federal prosecutor to step down ahead of georgia's senate runoffs over concerns. He wasn't doing enough to investigate. Trump's baseless claims of election fraud. Us attorney pack. Who was appointed by trump resigned last monday and sister. Helen prejean one of the world's best known anti-death penalty activists is asking justice department attorneys to stand down from the three remaining federal execution scheduled to take place this week in the last days of trump's time in office stand down from these killings. Just walk away from them. Do your other work. But not this she writes alongside the aclu's any love. Lisa montgomery is scheduled to become the first woman to be executed by the federal government in nearly seventy years tomorrow. That's tuesday and there was just some of the headlines. This is democracy now democracy now dot org the quarantine report. I'm amy goodman. When we come back we talk about strongmen around the world and here at home. Stay with us Watch your stern john. Nfl just shoot talk with a step. Ted hawkins this is democracy now democracy now dot org the quarantine report. I'm amy goodman house speaker. Nancy pelosi's threatening to quickly impeach president trump vice president mike pence does not support invoking the twenty-fifth amendment to remove trump from office during an interview on sixty minutes. Pelosi said trump should be prosecuted for his role. Inciting last week's violent insurrection at the capital. That left five people dead including capitol hill police officer. Sadly the person's running the executive branch is a deranged unhinged dangerous president of the united states and bony a number of days until we can be protected from him but he has done something so serious that there should be prosecution against him on friday. House speaker pelosi spoke to the chair of the joint chiefs of staff. Mark milley about ways to prevent trump from launching nuclear weapons in the closing days of his presidency. This comes says senators lisa murkowski of alaska and pat toomey of pennsylvania. Have become the first republican senators to call for trump to resign. Murkowski's also suggested. She may leave the republican party. Meanwhile kohls you're growing for republican. Senators ted cruz and josh hawley to be expelled or to resign. For supporting trump's effort to overturn the election and fanning the flames ahead of last week's insurrection authorities are warning about more right wing. Violence ahead of inauguration day on january twentieth over the weekend federal investigators arrested a number of trump's supporters who stormed the capital including tune-in who were photographed wearing tactical gear holding plastic. Zip tie handcuffs a sign that the domestic terrorists have been intending to take lawmakers hostage. Federal agents have added a georgia. Man named cleveland meredith for sending a text message threatening to kill nancy pelosi on live. Tv at the time of his arrest meredith had a glock handgun a pistol and assault rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition and sunday cnn aired shocking video of trump's supporters grabbing a dc metro. Police officer polling him down the capitol steps where he was beaten with american flagpoles. Investigations have also been launched into the role of active duty soldiers and police officers in wednesday's riots. Even the president of the united states could face criminal charges for inciting the insurrection last week. Top prosecutor in washington acting. Us attorney michael. Sherwin refused to rule out charging the president. President trump made no public remarks over the weekend after being permanently banned on twitter on friday he announced he would not attend biden's inauguration to talk more about the insurrection at the capitol and the trump presidency. We're joined ruth benguet. She's a professor of history and italian studies at new york university. Author of the new book strongman. How they rise why they succeed and how they fall her new piece for. Cnn is headlined. Trump's end gain power at all costs professor. Ben get if you can start off by responding to what happened last week. This violent insurrection still the department of homeland security. The president himself the fbi. The attorney general. None have made comment. even though five people died. Another police officer took his own life and we know the violence that now is becoming increasingly vivid as video after video is released. The events of january six are the product took too long term objectives that trump has sought successfully. One is like all strongmen who arrive on the scene. They legitimize existing extremism anti-democratic tendencies. They give validation to the worst criminal elements society and in fact many strongmen including trump either come to power with a criminal record or under investigation. So they are criminal elements themselves. So there's that the other thing they do is and trump did this with the gop is they glamorize and legitimize lawlessness so lawmakers become lawbreakers and this has happened and what is particularly disturbing. And i think we'll have more of this. There's an ap investigation that has come out on. Who are these participants of the january six events then though it's tempting to see them as which is scary enough as extremists and militia groups white power. There were republican donors their republican officials. There were military. There were a law enforcement so this means the the threat to democracy is not outside our institutions. Only it's coming from inside. And this is a logical result of a policy that trump has followed very resolutely since he started signaling during his campaign to extremist groups but also made that statement. You played at the top of the show about shooting someone. What he was saying in january two them sixteen is that he would be. He was above the law and he was capable of violence and he would get away with it. So let's talk about his family as rally. That was held right before. The marauders the domestic terrorist insurrectionist. Whatever you wanna call them Right before they marched to the capital by the way trump saying he would be with them. Cor- scott carr and safely. Watch this from the white house. But let's turn to the video obtained by cnbc of trump and his family watching livestream of the pro trump's so called stop the steel rally at the capital last week. This is don trump junior and his girlfriend. Kimberly guilfoil d. minus a couple of seconds. Here guys it out dude in july are actual real lighter. A and this is president. Trump's personal attorney rudy giuliani addressing. The crowd at wednesday so called save america rally in washington. Dc over the next ten days. We get to see the machines that are crooked. The ballot set of fraudulent. And if we're wrong we will be made. Fools of a lot of them will go to jail. Let's have trial by combat trial by combat. This is rudy giuliani president. Trump's personal attorney who apparently will be hired by president trump along with alan dershowitz to defend him. If there is an impeachment trial we've been began then gatt if you can talk about what this insurrection looks like in world history you know the reading on by not the people outside but the people on the inside the leader of a country who refuses to accept democratic election. This is this is classic You know it's really interesting. Because in my book i the first book to put trump pin context of one hundred years of authoritarian history. And he's really using tactics from all three eras. He's got the fascist year and of course. I can't help but be reminded of the march on rome when mussolini was. Try to take over this trying to get into power but use these these black shirts and he took a train of first class train. But all the blackshirts were there in the streets intimidating. The king into inviting him into becoming prime minister and mussolini's also important because he was a democratic prime minister for three years eroding democracy from within and then when he thought he was gonna lose power. He declared a dictatorship but he'd already had these black shirts who are threatening violence so and then we have the age of military coups and we know that trump was investigating using the regular armed forces before general. Mila put a stop to that and so he went with these extremists but the other the other thing which as we see are not only extremists but people inside our institutions. The other thing that he's left for the gop is a road map on how to just nullify elections and and treat your political opponent as a political enemy and so he the gop was already drifting toward being authoritarian party when trump came along and he is legitimised lawlessness and in a sense that the whole events. Leading up to including the quotes. You mentioned you and trial by combat. They distill this kind of macho lawlessness. That's the essence of authoritarian rule. And always has been and it's our turn as a country. Chew to reckon with this. I wanted to go to a message posted on twitter sunday by the terminator actor. The former republican governor of california arnold schwarzenegger in which he compares last week's pro-trump trump mob at the capitol to kristallnacht when german nazis launched a wave of violent anti jewish pogroms. I grew up in austria and very aware of christie. The night of broken glass was neither of rampage against choose carried out in one thousand nine hundred thirty eight and announce the equivalent of the proud. Boys waste it was the day of broken gas right here. In the united states broken gaas was in the windows of the united states capitol. So if you can give us the background for this. And then we're going to play more of arnold schwarzenegger apparently for the first time in public talking about the complicity of his father and neighbors in austria. This time ruth. Benji gives us the history of kristallnacht and austria and angeles though kristallnacht was was so tragically important because they had already been legal persecution of jews and plenty of on of imprisonment of jews. Who left us and beatings in the street. There's plenty of violence in germany. And then hitler annexed austria and had a plebiscite austria had a plebiscite but kristallnacht was the first large scale coordinated attack on jewish sites whether their stores they were synagogues. and it. Was you know. The nazis allowed to the violence to happen but actually instigated it. So this is this technique of lighting the match already nod addressing violence and egging on violence and then it roll is a classic authoritarian maneuver. And of course. Part of the part of the effect was to lead some jews to get out and and emigrate which is partly what the nazis wanted. They wanted to get rid of the jews that way as well as with violence. The reason that. I want to go back to arnold schwarzenegger now yes. That's what so schwarzenegger. No let me goes. We're going to go back to play a little more of what he had to say. Yeah i was born in nineteen forty seven two years after the second world war growing up i was surrounded that broken man drinking away guilty with their participation in the most evil regime in history that often were rabbit. Semites nazis managed just went along. Step-by-step down the road. They were the people next door. I've never shared this so publicly because the distant painful member but my father will come home drunk once or twice a week and he would scream and hit us and my mother. I didn't torture responsible because unable assumed the same thing who his family and so it was the knicks. Navo i heard it'd be melania's and so been own is. They went physical pain from the shrapnel in the bodies. I didn't emotional pain for day. Saw what did he started lies and lies and lies and intolerance. So that's the former. Republican governor of california arnold schwarzenegger professor ruth thing. Yeah to you can talk about what he's referring to every day austrians and then take it back to the united states as increasingly people around this country are asking questions about the senators and congress members who have aided in embedded what donald trump was trying to de legitimize democratic elections people like cory bush calling for the expulsion the congressman from missouri of congress members who supported this but start packing austria with the nazis. Yeah so you know what what arnold working is referring to is You know that. Hitler was supposed to be hitler. Was the native child having been born in austria. He was supposed to be the savior of germany and instead he led it to defeat. I have quotes in my book about women in bomb shelters. When hitler abandoned his people in the allies were bombing and the soviets were invading. And she said. Hitler promised greatness and he was really out to destroy us so there was this massive massive tragedy and guilt that was experienced and caused violence violence. And this is this. Is this kind of terrible atmosphere. Post hitler who killed himself. Of course. Because i haven't in the conclusion to my book the one constant with all these men that they despise there people and they blame their people when things go badly and they leave them in the ditch. There only loyalties to themselves and the republicans in america have seen this happening as trump has turned on the people who enabled him at the beginning. Like jeff sessions. Who was the first person to bring him to a rally trump said in stream now and then we know what happened to jeff sessions and and so trump has had an enormous success to a shocking degree in domesticating and making as a personal tool the gop. Considering he didn't start his party cellini or or in hitler was was ahead of the party. Very on trump came in from the outside in only a four years to intimidation bullying buyouts. The usual autocratic methods has completely wrapped. Gop around his finger. And this is how we get this complicity. And so those who had to wait for an armed assault a murderous intentions on the capital to do the right thing like mcconnell lynn pence. I'm not so impressed. They were only reacting to their personal safety being jeopardised so if any any any legacy reckoning with the trump era has to actually focus on how successful he's been at getting people to be their worst selves finally Professor van yet. You tweeted historian of coups and right wing authoritarians here if there are not severe consequences for every lawmaker and trump government official who back this every member of the capitol police who collaborated with them. This strategy of disruption will escalate in twenty twenty one if you would elaborate further and end by talking about what is deeply concerning to so many people right now that this was just a first attack but when trump says this are beautiful or our journey is just beginning. I had already been very worried that this would be that. That trump in the gop triple act is an outside agitator even when he leaves and this would be a strategy of trying to de legitimize the biden administration. They've already been trying to sabotage with non action on corona virus economic misery but to make america so ungovernable as so difficult to govern so chaotic so violent under biden and harris that creates a more desire for law and order an income the trump's back again where trump trump proxies so. I'm very worried that this there's already a quote armed march being planned for january seventeenth around the nation and once you once you legitimize and give presidential and premature to extremism and once you convince you plant people throughout federal agencies you you you radicalize law enforcement at as bill barr who stepped away but has a huge amount of responsibility for this. It's very hard to turn to turn this back. Ruth gat one. Thank you for being with us. Professor of history and italian studies at new york university author of the book. Strongmen how they rise why. They succeed how they fall. We will link to her new piece at cnn title. Trump's endgame power at all costs next up. We look at big tex response. To the capital insurrection. Twitter has permanently banned. Donald trump parlor is off flying. We'll host a debate Summer is coming by lebanese composer. Elias rabbani rabbani died after battling in nineteen last week. This is democracy now democracy now dot org the quarantine report. I'm amy goodman. After years of debate. Twitter and facebook have remove president trump from their platforms. Today will host our own debate on the move by big tech twitter permanently. Suspended trump friday cutting off his instant line of communication with eighty nine million followers after reviewing to tweets at said could incite violence and contribute to a possible quote secondary attack on the us capital and other government facilities. Next weekend ahead of joe. Biden's inauguration wednesday trump's tweets were quote the seventy five million great american patriots. Who voted for me. America first and make america great again. We'll have a giant voice long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly. In any way shape or form and trump also tweeted that he quote will not be going to the inauguration on january twentieth unquote. Meanwhile facebook and instagram. Which are the same company have now suspended trump. At least until inauguration day twitch which is owned by amazon and snapchat also disabled trump's accounts other platforms that have now banned or restricted. trump include. Tick tock red snap chat and shop. Affi- meanwhile apple. Google amazon web services ended their support for the social media network parlor over the weekend. Which bills itself as twitter without rules. The company say parlors managers have consistently failed to halt threats of violence and calls for armed insurrection on the site. Parlor was co founded by the republican megadonor trump supporter. Rebecca mercer daughter of hedge fund billionaire robert mercer. All of this comes as critics argue facebook. Google and twitter have peddled extremism for profit for years now. The payment processing company stripe has cut ties with the trump campaign which continues to fund. Raise saying it violated policies against encouraging violence. After the pro-trump mob stormed the capital last wednesday for more on big text response to the capital insurrection. Begin with remeasuring us. He's professor of information studies at the university of california los angeles. Ucla where he also directs the digital cultures lab professor surena vasan is the author of the book beyond the valley. How innovators around the world are overcoming inequality and creating the technologies of tomorrow Is after we speak with him. We'll host a debate with professor surena. Vasan and chris hedges so professor. If you can start off a lot of people may not even be familiar with some of these sites but if you can talk about what has happened in the last week with big tech. Yeah absolutely amy's great to be back with you. I think it's really important to note that as we sit through this pandemic we are more technologically reliance than ever before our lives are mediated by private corporations rights and so big technology companies have had to take a stand in recent days about their relationships which quite frankly are highly symbiotic with president trump. Um and this is something we've discussed. Before because many big technology companies thrive around the amplification of spectacle meaning. Their goal like pretty much any media network is to keep you on there as much as possible to keep your attention glued and there is no one better at disorienting polarizing inflaming and stirring people up then president trump's so they have been strange bedfellows in in in many cases on an economic level allies for many years. I think i think quite belatedly honestly there. There were decisions made after the horrific effect the events of last week where there were clear linkages between president. Trump's behavior both online and offline and the domestic white supremacist terror. Incident that we saw last week. I think these companies have realized they needed to cut baits at some point but opinion. They've never taken a stand in the public interest and you know for us to praise them at this. Point is is is not really getting at the whole picture before we go to our debate explain. What parliament's parlour. It's very important to note. The connections actually between parlor in cambridge analytica which i know you and many networks at done a lot of reporting on rebecca mercer as you mentioned earlier is one of the founders of parlor and her father robert mercer where the founders along with steve bannon who was intimately involved with cambridge politica parlor was setup rhetorically almost and has grown and booms as a sort of alternative social media platform for the conservative alt-right and unfortunately even more kind of right wing neo nazi white supremacist type movements trump. Despite his you know incredibly positive in symbiotic relationship with big tech on every level has reeled against big tech over the last several months and has falsely claims that is responsible for his election loss and losses of for republicans. The past parlor was set up as an alternative to for for people on the rights to flock to but very importantly concept that might start or bubble up on parlour tends to translate across different technology platforms by what i call a media ecology so stuff might start on parlor just like it started on four chan or read it or other kinds of platforms but then it becomes the new normal on platforms. That are much more mainstream like facebook. Instagram and twitter so to debate big tex response to the capital insurrection and whether social media should be banning president trump for life for until he's out of office. We're joined by. Chris hedges the pulitzer prize winning journalist award winning author and activist. He is a regular columnist for sheer post has laid startle is headlined. The empire is not done with julian. Assange he's written numerous books. Including most recently america the farewell tour still with us remeasuring vossen professor of information studies at the university california los angeles where he also do directs the digital cultures lab. Chris can you start off by responding to twitter permanently banning donald trump well twitter All of these digital platforms are not neutral arbiters. In fact there are of course for profit corporations with close ties to the security state. And if you look back over the past few years They have imposed heavy forms of censorship and interference primarily on the left and in particularly on wikileaks so they blocked the ability for wikileaks to accept donations on paper towel. And every other platform They every time wikileaks would hold a press conference They would There would be interference electronic interference. People couldn't get in the room They've used algorithms And then we saw again. They're very partisan activity during the campaign when they locked the new york. Post out of its own twitter account Because it had published stories about the revelations Found on the Discarded or abandoned laptop from a hundred biden. Which in retrospect have proved proven. Quite serious greenwald. Took a very heroic stance on this and the intercept wouldn't publish his story so to allow these opaque and remember these companies. Know everything about us. We know nothing about them to allow these companies to essentially function as defacto platforms for censorship and manipulation. And i'm not in any way minimizing. What happened last week Hearkens back to the way civil liberties were viscera in the wake of nine eleven. The patriot act which the great civil rights attorney michael ratner called. A coup d'etat. Two thousand and two authorization to use military force act So responding to a crisis. And i think we do live in a crisis i have written about this right wing nativist fascist of my book american fascists came out in two thousand six. So i'm very cognizant of the very real threat that we face to respond by an essence empowering these private corporations to function as sensors billions of people Will come back to haunt us and we see that because it's not just trump they target. It's always in the end. The left that that pays for this kinds of censorship professor should've asked if you can respond to this and also let's just point out that twitter's move Didn't start with the leadership it started with Three hundred twitter employees Signing a petition calling for him trump to be permanently banned saying we must examine twitter's complicity and what president-elect biden has rightly termed insurrection. Those acts jeopardize the well being of the united states. Our company and our employees. I mean that itself is is a great example of how publicly accountable a company like twitter is and that is true across the board when it comes to big tech companies big tech companies have become a are private corporations that we're talking about some of the wealthiest corporations in the history of the world during this pandemic alone. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been made primarily by tech magnate's that is really important to point out and that's only going to be the new normal as we head toward climate crises puts pop possible future pandemics salon but i very much agree with the point that was made by mr hedges on. Twitter is self serving. These big tech companies are self-serving There are many right wing trolls who are going viral as we speak on twitter right now of these technology platforms powered by their hidden algorithms. That are indeed. Oh pick thrive on the amplification of polarization the amplification of attention. They are able to computational. We predict what will grab our eyeballs and the disorienting propagandist hateful kinds of content. That comes out of president trump. a on twitter Is our make. Mix makes him an incredible ally and that is why. It's extremely important for us to take note of the much larger issue which is our public lives are economic. Lives are political. Lives even our intimate. Life's our behavioral lives are all governed by private technology companies. That know far more about us than we will ever know about them. And that's why. I believe we really need to transform regulate technology companies in the image of justice and balance and compel. Chris hedges. Concern that yes. They're turning on trump right now who they have enormously profited from over the years but next it may well be you. Oh absolutely there there. There is no public governance. There is no public. Accountability could be any of us a meaning. It was with wikileaks as as as chris. Edges pointed out. Yeah they it it. It is incredible how much power we have given to a very small number of people who are who are essentially mediating pretty much every aspect of our lives. And i really believe that this is why we need true regulatory intervention. Out this time and we're at a very unique moment. When it comes to these issues we have a large skill agreement across the american population and actually in many cases around the world to do something about these issues with big tech well. Chris hedges not all speech in this country is is to say the least simply allowed. I mean you're not supposed to be able to yell. Fire in a crowded theatre. For example as you pointed out yourself the warning for years about american fascism. How does president trump the support for this insurrection. Not fall into that category for you. Because he doesn't specifically call for violence and this goes back to the attempt on the state of mississippi to go after the nwa c p. for Violence that had been carried out trying to blame the nwa c. p. for this Violence and and it went all the way to the supreme court. I think nine hundred eighty two and they ruled essentially it was unanimous decision That this kind of speech. The kind of speech that trump laid out is actually protected and even if it results violence. They can't they can't go after the person who carried out that speech so The i if you give a strong in that case said that if you give a strong Speech against segregation and that there is some kind of violence carried out. You're not responsible so I think that I would love to see trump impeached. A ralph nader. And bruce fein have drawn up a list of twelve real impeachable offenses. Not just a shakedown of ukraine But of course. I think the democratic party has been complicit in this administration they could have impeach trump the first week just on the monuments clause alone The perpetrator of nine wars. If we count yemen That were never declared by congress. But they didn't do it because they saw trump as a fundraising tool the media has made tons of money off of trump Again As it was pointed out the the digital platforms love trump as a essentially keeping people on their platforms again profit-driven and so And now we've ended up at four in the final week of the trump administration With people attempting to respond to the deterioration of the american political system and the judiciary and the checks and balances and everything else But i i think that the Clearly if we kind of coldly read. What trump said his supporters He didn't call for people to break into the capital and take people hostage certainly he and his family in just the speeches alone at this rally as he talked about he would be with them but of course then. He sneaked back to the white house and was not with them but they talked about trial by combat they talked about getting republicans who were not standing up for trump and you see all of the responses as he watched what took place the massive islands. The capitol trump tweeted. We love you. You're special people remeasure nevada. On what do you want to see as you support trump being banned permanently from twitter to come from this. What do you see happening also stripes. They won't process as credit cards. You've got shop affi- which he uses will money matters to say the least to trump and you've got read at you've got snapchat. You've got youtube all of these. Taking trump down. Yeah absolutely. I don't i don't i don't think that the that the solution to all to this issue and any future issues comes from hoping that twitter does the right thing twitter it has decided to ban trump and the other tech companies are now cutting bait with trump Because it's got it's it's just gonna step too far and they all recognize. The biden. Administration is incoming. I i really think that what we need to do is long before we get to. This point have public audit public and public accountability into technology company. So you know. This is what i've been calling a digital bill of rights but basically what i'm talking about here as we need to have full disclosure over what is being collected about us how that which is being collected about us as influencing what we see we need to have the ability for third parties to have audit continuous audit over these technology platforms. We need to rein in some aspects not fully of section thirty of the nineteen ninety six communications decency act which basically provides online content providers basically no no liability just full full protection to post and publish. Whatever they would they wished to but long before we get to this point we any any pieces of content for example that are likely to go viral or the tech companies are going to make go. Viral should be there should be some kind of audit kind of process and these algorithms are thriving power all of these systems thrive on amplification spectacle and disinformation and they re league. They really need to be reined in transformed in the interest in the public interest in the democratic interests but also to my point earlier technology companies are not simply about our political lenses into the world but are also deeply influencing issues of economic justice and social justice and and we have to ensure because the internet was publicly funded that all of these tech companies are resting upon publicly funded infrastructure. That was based on all of us paying for that. They are publicly accountable. They have to be dedicated to the public interest. And we have to do everything we can especially at this time when there's a lot of attention on this issue to push something that is far more progressive than just hoping for some good step to be taken here and there when it's self serving before we go. Chris hedges the drudge ruling over julian assange extradition case has just denied him bail. The decision came two days after the judge rejected a. Us bid for his extradition. The wikileaks founder must stay in prison while the us appeals the decision. Your latest article is headlined. The empire is not done with julian. Assange we just have a minute but talk about the significance of what's taken place in britain right now. The judge ruling he will not be extradited to the united states because of health risk. Because she feels he could commit suicide. There's that potential in the barbarity of the prison system but on everything else other point every other charge she agreed with the us Prosecutors and that's ominous because essence she legitimized legally the right of the american government to seize. anyone julian assange is not a. Us citizen wikileaks is not a us based publication who publishes us secrets and carry out extraordinary rendition to hold back to the united states It's clear that they are going to let him sit in this high security prison. He's letting remember he's being held there on a bond issue a bail issue. It's he should have been out a long time ago his physically and psychologically in a very precarious state. And i think there's a lot of people who feel that they're going to just keep him locked up there because the us will appeal for months and months Until he disintegrates hedges what you wanna say is that we have ten seconds what you want to see right now. Julian assange well. Julian assange is probably the most important publisher of a last few decades. So he's he represents everything that i care about in terms of shining a lens into the inner workings of of power and and exposing the kinds of crimes of power of and the fact that so many people have chris hedges. We thank you so much for being with us and ramesh of son. I mean me.

twitter trump us Nancy pelosi mike pence ted cruz josh hawley president trump robert mercer amy goodman Donald trump President trump austria capitol police georgia Rebecca mercer Joe biden biden administration iran
TRUMPGATE

Dumb, Gay Politics

1:11:17 hr | 2 years ago

TRUMPGATE

"Hi, this is Arianna Leonard ski from what's your deal? I'm sitting here with Andy Richter, high Oriana, high end, I'm ready to have my tarot cards rail. I hope you're not scared. I'm not scared at all great on my podcast. What's your deal? I read tarot for special guests, so listen wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay. Great. Hey, guys. Well, we are super excited to announce that wear on cast box. Now cast box is the fastest growing highest rated podcast app on both s and Android. And it does have all your favorite podcast. Okay. Okay. You could still listen to dumb gay politics wherever you get your podcast, but we just want you to try cast box. We literally hate every single other podcast provider as you guys know, and especially the main one which one we're talking about and we're super excited that we're finally on cast box because we think it's the best. So try it. It's all shit. It's all just I'm gay politics. America's got kinda why? But we're not gonna let it go down like that. Because we got a down gay podcast Adum gay political podcast. We probably don't have all the facts, but we got opinion, then we'll probably backtrack. That's dumb gay podcasts. Adum get political podcast. It's all it's all shit. It's all shit. It's all shit. I don't know. I I am. Shape of this shit is in the. This shit is Trump t-. Are you MP any NS swat? What? I don't even know. Hey, everybody look day politics. I'm julie. And I'm brandy, and this is the podcast where we recap the week in politics like we are talking about the week in reality TV, and this is our very important Trump scandal, evergreen special Julie's, doing stand upon a gay cruise in Mexico for a week. So we are recording his upload a few days early before we get all evergreen on that ass. We wanted to humbly remind end beg you guys to please. I not our patriot podcast. It's one dollar for an extra one hour podcast. No politics. Go to WWW dot patriots dot com slash someday. Politics. Now, the news changes minute to minute in the divided states of Trump merica? So that makes doing an evergreen episode. Very very hard. We've done Reich's it. We've done conspiracy theories we've spent two years exhausting, the evergreen landscape. But now the medical mysterious Muller report is literally moments from finally fucking coming out and the Trump Russia connection will finally be revealed once and for all maybe probably hope hopefully, well, whatever they probably won't even let the public read it. Just. Yeah. You know, they're not going to it's going to be the new JFK grassy knoll bullshit fucking secret dossier either way in honor of the Muller investigation, wrapping itself up. We hear dumb gay politics are going to break down a biggest political scandal in American history. And like AM joy said that's not hyperbole even without seeing the mullahs report or knowing what prosecutors in the southern district of New York have found or with the house and Senate investigations will find it is a straight up booking fact that we have already witnessed the biggest political scandal in American history. Otherwise known as Trump gays. How we get to live through so many things. The biggest scandal in American political history. I mean, it's crazy according to axios, which we plagiarized this concept from the only two scandals that come close to Trump Russia our water date, which led to president Richard Nixon's nation in nineteen seventy four and the teapot dome scandal of the early twenties in which oil barons, bribed corrupt aide to president Warren Harding for petroleum leases jhad, Robert Muller has already delivered one of the biggest counter intelligence cases in US history. So basically, the only two huge counterintelligence cases were like in the nineties when this guy Aldred Ames who was a former CIA officer convicted in ninety four of being a KGB devil agent. And then Julius Ethel Rosenberg, you know, about them. Now who literally executed in nineteen fifty three for spying on America. Four the Russians and June's Devin Jisr Watergate yielded charges. The fuller has so far. So a total of sixty nine people were charged Watergate, forty eight people twenty corporations pleaded guilty Muller. So far has indicted twenty seven people seven have been convicted for pleading guilty. But the thing is that both water game teapot, dull were limited. Because a foreign power wasn't essential player and a much narrower scope of potential offenses was under investigation. Yeah. That's why after preparing this episode. I can't even imagine what molars office looks like there is so many fucking. There's will be now we've already broken down to six scandals. But there's so many details so many people it's like, I don't know how he's keeping it all straight. It's it's it's insane. So Trump gate as we are calling. It can be divided up into six distinct scandals, and we're gonna walk you guys through each one starting with scandal number one Trump's hookers. Number one is Trump's Hooker. Drums, secretly paid hush money to two of his mistresses little literally the night before he want the election. He paid them through his longtime personal attorney and fixer Michael Cohen who is now going to prison for carrying out the scheme on his behalf in two thousand that must have been Trump's big year his big his big Viagra. I don't know. But he he he fucked both of them in two thousand six so it stormy Daniels in care McDougal. I mean, we know the guy has like. I mean had sex with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of women, but these two are on the books because they were paid hush money by Michael Cohen. Right. And Karen McDougal thought she had a relationship with him. Yes. And she so the stormy Daniels. Fuck Tim like at some after some celebrity golf, alternate, which you know is an actual Hooker scenario. You know what I mean? Like, right. She and then in Kerr made through what was like his mistress for like, eight months or something right yelich. She she was seriously under the impression that they were like in a thing like the they were having a relationship. So basically in twenty fifteen Trump enlisted, the help of his friend, David pecker, that's his name that guy owns the National Enquirer. So Trump knowing that he's gonna you know, twenty fifteen he's like ramping up to like run for president. He tells David pecker to buy the story from Karen McDougal for one hundred and fifty grand. And then once he owns the rights to the story just kill it. Because that's what David pecker did for Trump were a million. Time right. Like his whole thing is that he would buy stories and kill them. Yeah. And then in twenty sixteen right before the election. Stormy Daniels surface. So Trump asked David pecker to handle it. But he wouldn't for whatever reason. I don't really know why. So Trump had then he had Michael Cohen. Hey, stormy Daniels one hundred and thirty thousand of his own money. And then Trump said he would pay him back. Now, the thing with Trump is that he was involved in every step of the way. But that he likes of the payoff of directing the deals of the calls of the meetings. He told Cohen what to do. But he's acted like he didn't know yet though, he told reporters the whole time member to be standing on Air Force One. And he'd be like, I don't know. I didn't. I don't know. I don't even know anything about that talk to Michael Cohen. My attorney talk to Michael Cohen like he would say he didn't know anything about it. But it's been proven. Time. And again that he did. I mean, he ended up at Eastleigh admitting it. Right. So I don't know why that's not. I what crime that is. I don't know. Well, but his is paying off mistress. It isn't in and of itself like a like a federal offence or like to camp be criminally prosecuted. What it is is a campaign finance violation. And they've all had them Obama had them, Hillary Clinton had them not to this extent. But it's basically just a fine you get fine. But the thing is that makes it a scandal. Is that number one what to hookers any fucking phase, all and Bill Clinton, you know, Bill Clinton got impeached. He he loved Monica Lewinsky's. He didn't get impeached for booking Monica Lewinsky or for bucket getting with her in the Oval Office. He got impeached because he lied under oath. About it. And so the house voted that he should be impeached based on obstruction, obstruction of Justice in perjury. But then the Senate, of course, when ahead and said, no one branch of congress. Impeach Clinton any the other branch didn't so but this is just a scandal. Because a Michael Collins going to jail for lying to congress and other things, but it's like the guy fuckers, and then lied about it, and they got caught lying about it. So that's already just as candle Bitel. Just take us back to nineteen ninety four. And instead of Bill Clinton, it's him. It's like we would be our minds would heads would explode. Yeah. He's a fucking hookers as a crime, we call them hookers. But there's no paper trail apparently of like stormy Daniels isn't gonna come forward and go I was a sex worker, and he paid me 'cause then she'll get arrested. So everyone's acting like it was free consensual sex. You just pay them off. So they just wanted to talk. It wasn't like it was. That's how much it costs the flicker. It's no-no Mississippi, social talk. I guarantee he paid her after that celebrity golf tournament. She completely said he was disgusting. She didn't even wanna have them. And then they're like, but was it consensual, and she was like, yeah. But I mean, I didn't want to end it read. That's what hunter would say. Like, yeah. I don't want like this guy. But I have to it's my job. I just started thinking about Donald Trump having sex. And what that looks like I mean, did you do you visualize it in your mind? I imagine a lot of heavy breathing and. And then it's done. The absolutely didn't. She kind of implies stormy Daniels that he had a tiny, dick. Yeah. I just think it's interesting that of all the people in the world there are so many men that you're like. Is he gay but with Donald Trump? It's never crossed my mind once. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like, oh my God. I couldn't even fathom that of him being gay. But think about how much that's how come you know, if you ever think someone is that guy? He's kind of seems gay. Then you probably is because when someone's not gay they don't seem gay. 'cause we would say eating ping about Donald Trump at anything. That is true. But I'll tell you what he does. He that is gay just doesn't now it's time for scandal. Number two Trump firing FBI director James Comey. Don't you? Basic. Two on it. Don't you Vesey danville? Number two happened. When Trump fired then FBI director, James Koby, either told NBC's Lester Holt that it was at least in part because of the Russia investigation. He literally said the interview the rushing with Trump at Russia's a made up story. Now lesser hold is someone who has a big dick or he had. He has a big bowl. If you watch his show on NBC at night. He always has these slacks on and he has a big bull cold watch. So this is why other than lesser holds bulge. Why it matters? And what makes it? Scandal to in the diary of scandal. Okay. So ninety seventy three there's this thing called the Saturday night massacre in it's basically was when Nixon tried to stop Watergate, stop the investigation of Watergate by abolishing the whole office of the Watergate prosecutor whose name was Archibald Cox, and he accepted the resignation of attorney general, Elliot Richardson, and he fired deputy attorney general William Ruckle shells when they the Safai are about costs. So it was like in one night like nine thousand people got fired, and it was everyone affiliated with Watergate. Right. And they're constantly going over you all as hear the news about the Saturday night massacre. And is it gonna be like the Saturday night as anything? Xanada because Trump just like the night massacre. Yeah. Has fire every single person league him with Russia all the way from Michael? Who's coming up in scandal? Four to attorney general Jeff Sessions who lied to congress about meeting with Russian diplomats during the Trump campaign, but the firing of James Kobe in may twenty seventeen was the start of the Trump day massacre. He systematically began to remove anyone leaky with Russia from there on out. I mean, we know what he did every single person has been fired fired actually like within the FBI day were. So looking horrified that Trump fired Comey, and it was so like just not done that they knew that the guys. Russia. So the FBI immediately started this huge counterintelligence investigation of whether Trump himself is working on behalf of Russian interest because they could not believe that he fired James Comey. They couldn't believe dance deals. Right. And he will. I mean for all James problems. They did they did respect James Tomi. I thought. Yeah. Like. And it's not only that it's that. It's it's it's it's this unapologetic like authoritarian attitude toward law enforcement that Trump has where it's like I need loyalty. I demand loyalty, and he thinks they work for him any base at least like merges the interest of the country because they work for the country. They don't work for him. He met his interest merged with the interest of the country. And it's like that's why they were like, no, bro. Like, we're not your. We're not your personal police department. He sat down with a K members Jeff Sessions or even James Koby and asks for loyalty, are you going to be low to me like he's a literally like, Don Corleone, and it's not just it's like they thought he would be inside the FBI they thought he would be he was a national security threat. And that the actual firing of James Comey was obstruction of Justice because they always talk about obstruction of Justice. I guess it does basically means like you're blocking Justice from being served. Of course, when you are the person. Who is in charge of the agency investigating Russia collusion. You're obstructing Justice. He does nothing, but he is a walking obstruction of Justice all day long. Every time when we go at end of his episode. You guys aren't gonna fucking believe how much the guy has lied and blatantly gotten caught. But yet never impeached for obstruction of Justice, never charged. Nothing. It's like I don't understand why everyone's being a pussy everyone that saying he doesn't mean it like that. He's using of you know. What's the word? Rhetoric or whatever as it's just like, oh, this is what he meant, blah, blah, blah. None. No, Sarah Sanders, Kellyanne Conway, everybody's sticking up for him. And no one is doing anything. I guess Nancy Pelosi is starting to like get it together yet. But now than anti close like now impeaching him. It's too much hassle in. It's like, right. When the molar investigation is about to come out like maybe twenty eight teen. I mean twenty twenty is next year, but still. Next year at the end of next year. Like, let's get him out. I mean that Muller. Needs to fuck it. If nothing else show that he obstructed Justice Muller's too scared to say he's in bed with the Russians because Millard is wanna get killed than fide. But he at least needs to say, he obstructed Justice and get him out of there. So basically with James Comey wasn't the firing itself. But what the firing represented in terms of attitude that makes it a scandal first of all our scandal because it's on heard of on precedent. Then it was the attitude that Trump demonstrated against molar and rod Rosenstein, who was the deputy attorney general. It was the attitude about Andrew McCain Andrew McCabe replace James Comey in the Trump fired him, and he didn't even get his pension. Back of. All that guy was on Bill Maher on Sunday in I just feel so sorry provided at Ford's Jeff Sessions recanting himself, the attorney general accused him, and it's like how hard clerk Trump in Jeff Sessions for two years. Four fire them. Oh park. Will why why did you tell you're going to rookie boss L made fun of? Like, I mean, he should've told me before took the job. Like what why? Oh, right because he's trying to protect us. That's why. They would like he like, the constant, you know, like temptation of pardons. He's always dangling pardons out there like implying gonna part in everyone. Anyone that gets? He's gonna pardon them another partner on. Yes. No. I don't think he's gonna be able to EPA keeps Audie was. But now, I don't think he can. And they're all going to jail for just a few years here as they're on. I'm like fuck that. So basically that's were scandal to took a cold was when he fire James combing. Now time for scandal number three's Trump's Shadia son in law, Jared, Kushner and his non-existent national security clearance. Bring. The law. Gen three happened. When Trump overruled the advice of his lawyers at intelligence experts granted his son-in-law Jared Kushner a top secret clearance. Now this alert is White House chief of staff John Kelly that he recorded his opposition in a babble. Of course, Trump his family repeatedly denied the John Kelly had interfere. I mean, the White House lawyer at the time his name's Don Mcgann. He also wrote an internal memo outlining the concerns that everyone had raised about Jared, Kushner, most importantly, the fucking C. I A did not want the guy to have national security clearance. Don, Mcgann, ultimately, recommended that Jared Kushner, not be giving it. I mean, they said now everyone denied it up like Trump went ahead and gave him one anyway oil. It's impressive. It's definitely it's absolutely unprecedented. That a president gives his son-in-law a national security clearance of the highest order when no one in the national security adviser once that person to have a clearance, and it's not just a scandal. Because Jared Kushner never should have been given that Ashwell security clearance, and he's using it to make money. Shady Trump again again lied. He lied on the New York Times and said that he had nothing to do with Kushner receiving top security clearance, and that there were no memos or whatever. But he definitely lied and said I didn't give him. I don't do that. That's not my hands. But that is what he did. Did they find the most? Yes, they have the memo's. They they know that they also know on the record that personnel office get gives the security clearances denied him that. I N F B is that they didn't want him to have one John Kelly said he didn't want him to have Don Mcgann wrote amendments listed out. Here's all the people. He he's been denied everyone that Trump said give them one. I don't understand. Why it is that the president can override every single person in the? Yeah. I security department so Jared Kushner outta only has top security clearance. He's the top advisor liaison to the Middle East. Exactly in. It's not it's not really known lie specifically why got her down for the security clearance. But they think it has to do with obviously as shitty. Father who went to jail. And his his his real estate, the the Kushner real estate, like development holdings are huge, and they yield foreign governments all the time. Like when they try and go get stuck in refined. They don't just go down to Wells Fargo can be like I need a refi. Can I get the seven percent interest rate? Now, they literally go to like China Saudi or him and his other and his company has been dealing with with international and foreign governments for for years. So they think that's why give him the clearance. Well, that makes perfect sense. The last thing you need is Jared Kushner going to China a lifting some sanctions because the family needs the five hundred million dollar loan. And that's exactly what happened except it. Didn't happen in China. It happened in the Middle East because Jared Kushner is Trump like you said top adviser and aid to the Middle East. He's liaison. And I just think it's funny that it's the Middle East because that's where all the money. He is. So he's met with the Saudi Crown prince m b s that his name apparently as everyone calls membe housing. Who famously had that bucking journalist killed? And then said it wasn't him which Trump has done. Nothing about Trump fear Kushner have done nothing about. These guys. Trump said he adamantly said it wasn't him. I believe him what he want. He said he'd do it. That's what he says. Apparently, Jared and NBS or like the same age in when they had their first meeting. They hit it off 'cause are two asshole tools and so Jared than convinced Trump to go to Saudi Arabia on his first foreign trip, which is like fucking insane. Never. That. President all our Canada or what have been to Saudi Arabia on their first trip? Now. Absolutely. Not that nuts. The big when he went to Saudi Arabia people were like what the fuck is going on. And then he did that soared ritual, and it's not a tiny front sprite not really like. Like frenemies. Now, he just he should've just blatantly just rolled right up to the beg. That's what he was doing literally here the tea on the Middle East with der. Kushner, basically, his family bought a building his company bought a building on Fifth Avenue like ten years ago ended this huge sky rise in it was villian dollars and the address is fix six six Fifth Avenue that could be lie, but the building never known ever wanted to rent in it, and it just was a shitty terrible awful investment and the family could never get out from under water because of this investment. So for like last two years, the dad has been engineered have been going around like trying to sell it not really Jared while he's been with Trump. But prior to getting in the ministry Shen him in the dad were trying to get rid of this property or refi or get a new own or getting more investors. 'cause they were underwater so the jerick Christner's fucking dad literally met with the finance minister of cutter. Okay. Which is in the Middle East. The finance minister, that's the government of. Okay. To try to get aid for the building. And they wouldn't give it to him. And you know, you know, your Kushner's dad said my son on stray shin. That's why he met with a government. He didn't mean woke or. No it was like Jared. Good hook you off. Don't worry can be great, right? Yes. So then after the guy the finance minister turned down co corporation for the money one month later, Jared Kushner in the White House supported this like conflict in the school of Qatar which was the Saudis in the in the United Arab Emirates. They literally supported Saudi Arabia in a conflict in cutter. That they wouldn't give him the money. Then lo and behold here comes a firm, which is based in Canada, but is entirely it's like a hedge fund made up entirely of Qatari money. They come in. They come in and save the building they paid they lease the building. And I'm putting quotes and paid ninety nine years of rent up front like few months before the Kushner's we're gonna have to pay one point four billion dollars Qatari money came in and saved the building. It's so clearly like pay for play. It's so clear evident a pay for play. And the fuck it the dossier outlined all of this shit, like the dossier knew that was the deal. Now, it's time for scandal. Number four. Trump's national security advisor in who in bed with Russia. To trial proven. Go to trial week yields into providence scandal number four internet shell Michael Flynn, Kedah witch wicked witch of the DC was the fucking national security advisor while big compromise by the Kremlin, the CIA the FBI both knew he was dealing with Russia. He was fired from the White House eventually guilty to life. The FBI about the Russian contacts. The worst. He's the worst. And it's still not been charged till here's the deal. How Flint shit went out? Before he left off its Oba ejected thirty five Russians from America and lay down like a bunch of sanctions on Russia for interfering in the election. Okay. 'cause they all knew everyone knew everyone seeing the dossier. They knew during the debates that Russia was fucking with social media fucking with fake protests in they were interfering in the election. Everyone knew but except for us so right before he left office in December and handed it over to the Trump administration. He threw out thirty five Russians any put all these sanctions on Russia. So during the transition, Michael Flynn. Talked to Michael Flynn with part of the transition. He talked to the Russian government and ask them not to retaliate against the sanctions. And he said that the Trump administration would be quote good to them. Once they were in the White House, though. It's like he's like don't do anything. Don't make this charred. We will hook you up when we get in there. Wow. Okay. So then the occupation happens and Trump makes Flynn national security advisor. Okay. Here's the deal. The national security adviser doesn't have to be approved by congress. They can just get appointed by the president. Because of course, he never wanna fucking made it through hearing. He still dirty. He would've. Perjured himself from beginning to act exactly like he I. There's no way that he could. So basically the Russia call about don't do anything. We'll be good to you is made public. But Michael Flynn denies that. He ever talked about the sanctions he says. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I talked to the bathroom, but we never discussed sanctions. So then vice president Mike dick fuck Pence goes on CBS in the morning and says again that Michael Flynn did not discuss sanctions with Russia. He's like I talked to him. He didn't discuss sanctions that call means nothing. It doesn't matter. But the thing is the FBI had fucking monitor the call because the FBI's all Russia. They knew they were interfering elections the news they had the dossier. The all new so they were monitoring the Russian call and they had that shit on taste. Then the FBI calls Michael Flynn into an interview where they ask him about. Russia interfering in the election. Cuz let's not forget how he went to the dinner with Putin that next to him in started the standing ovation during the election. And he's also the same guy who during the Republican veges had yelling lock her up lock her up over emails. This motherfucker is so shady so during the FBI in review Michael Flynn, once again tells the FBI that he didn't talk about sanctions in the call in. Here comes the FBI with the fuck in tape and they're like bitch, please. Okay. We have you taste asphalt. What do you think? We are who do you? What do you think this is? So they got there like we have it on tape. So then Trump is forced to fire him not because of the call not because of the sanction because he lied to Mike Pence that was the that was the official word on the reservation from fired him because he lied to Mike Pence though, according to the dossier, which we've actually been reading at. It's a surprisingly easy read. I highly recommend everyone read it. It's fascinating. And you all. Believe it in. It's incredible. And Joe June of twenty sixteen Russians allegedly offered Trump associates a big payout from the commissions of its sale of nineteen percent of state energy giant rosette rosette is a Russian company they would pay this out in return for lifting. Sanctions that's the whole section. So a month after the election Russia sold nineteen point five percents naked rose enough in a concealed deal, which was eventually revealed to be who do you think everyone who do you think that is right Qatar cutter though, a cutter I like to say Qatar cutter. A Qatari diplomat that with Michael Cohen. Michael fucking slid at Trump Tower immediately after the deal as there is video footage of the day. Like the dossier comes out in basically, a big part of the dossier is this company rose Neft in how it's like an energy company, and how they're going to sell this huge stake in like to the tune of like eleven billion dollars to the Trump all fucking cronies and. Local old like right after the DA puts nineteen percent. They actually do sell nineteen percent. They sell it to cutter. And then have a meeting with Michael Floyd who they've been talking to and Michael Cullen who they've been dealing with like, it's. They're not sitting there discussing stormy Daniels know that this is the other thing about Michael fled, the absolute most damning evidence is the rose nap thing because that's the most shit in the dossier. But this is just what we're right here. The American public. I think the general thing is you think oh Russia that Trump is in trouble for colluding with Russia to win the election act. Like, they don't you think? That's the thing. People think is the deal. According to these scandals, which were telling you about that's not the only thing going down. It's really it's like pay for plates. Not just that he colluded with them to win. It's that now that he's one whether that he colluded or not he's endlessly nonstop trying to make money. Board interests that are like national secrets and what we're gonna do. However, he puts himself positions himself in the world every single thing that him in. It's fucking son-in-law in every all his societas can make money. So right. As it pertains to the collusion of the campaign the election though, so basically, Hillary Clinton emails were stolen by this guy. Peter Smith, and he's Republican like he's like a Republican Michael Cohen type dude goes out he fixes shit. He seals dubbed deal secrets for blackmail. He's like one of those shady authorative 's for the Republican party's he what he went to go to go. She ate the deal with a Russians to get the emails Russia hacked, Hillary Clinton in the DNC, and they had the emails this guy. Peterson went to Russia to make a deal to get the emails when he was in Russia. He said he was there as a Representative for Michael Flynn. He worked with Michael Flynn the entire time during the campaign and even during the transition, and when it all started coming out that with these things the Email if they can. Improve that Trump knew about the hack of the else. Should right there that guy walking killed himself? Yeah. Found dead in his department. And they're like, oh he committed suicide out of nowhere. He literally did like an interview with some newspaper at his house and was completely fine. You're really you're gonna I've got a schedule. I'm gonna have coffee. I'm gonna do this interview to make some calls, and I'm gonna kill myself. I mean, you don't you don't say what the cause of suicide was was shooting to the head or I didn't see drought. I didn't investigate his death. 'cause it was enough for me to know that it's suicide with out of nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Flynn that was Michael Flynn's contact. Killed is either the Russian. Yeah. I mean, they all did because it was definitely the Russians. Now, it's time for scandal. Number five Trump Tower Moscow. Number. Happened during the presidential campaign when Trump confidence negotiated a deal with Russia for Trump Tower in Moscow, it would have been Trump's most lucrative deals ever. He was so excited about it. All of them were done junior. The whole family was in the Trump Tower deal. He hid this, however from the public and continuously lied about it member when he said, I have no deals in Russia. Have no Russia. I have no Russia. I have no rush. I have no desire Russia when in fact, he had one of the biggest deal of his life in Russia. He hid it from the public. Ed. He was always about it. His former lawyer Michael Cohen is going to prison for making false statements to congress about that deal. Okay. So in the very first press conference after he got elected in the very first one Trump, literally said that he had no deals going in Russia. He wasn't even talking about collusion or the election or the fucking emails. He literally was talking about business deals and denied having any business deals in Russia when he was dealing with Trump Tower Moscow, and that they will not fall through until August twenty seventeen and that press conference was in January twenty seventeen. So we're gonna play you guys a clip from that press conference of hell, let's hear the biggest liar who's ever live talking about how he just has. No business deals at all in Russia. I have no dealings with Russia. I have no deals in Russian. I have no deals that could happen in Russia because we. Stayed away. And I have no loans with Russia as a real estate developer have very very little debt. I have assets that are now people found out how big the company is very little Denver low debt, but I have no loans with Russia at all. And I thought that was important to put I certified that. So I have no deals I have no loans, and I have no dealings. We could make deals in Russia. Very easily. We wanted to. I just don't want to because I think that would be a conflict, so I have no loans, no dealings and no current pending deals now I have to say one of. Over the weekend. I was offered two billion dollars to do a deal in Dubai with a very very, very amazing, man. Great great developer from the Middle East who say to MAC. Friend of mine, Greg and was offered two billion dollars to do a deal in Dubai number of deals. And I turned it down. I didn't have to turn it who says, you know, I have a no conflict situation because I'm president, which is I didn't know about that until about three months ago. But it's a nice thing to have. But I don't want to take advantage of something. I have something that others. Don't have vice president Pence also has I don't think he'll need it. I have a feeling it's not going to do. But I have no conflict of interest provision as president. I have no dealing Russia. I have no current business dealings in Russia. I have nothing going on with Russia, and he has a fucking enormous deal. The biggest deal of his life for Trump Tower Moscow. In it happening right at that moment happening. I was the building to that. He was gonna offer Putin forty million or fifty million something like that penthouse in Trump Tower that was part of the whole thing with that deal was that Putin was gonna get like this luxury pet Tout's for free, basically. So that they could build a Moscow. So here comes Michael Kamen again. So that's Trump's former lawyer, Victor, we already talked about him going to jail for the fucking hookers in the payoffs to the hookers. So I just need everybody to know that Michael Cohen straight up is married to a Russian and her father is a huge businessman like a real estate developer in fucking Moscow. Like, they probably cultivating Michael Cohen to as we know they cultivated Trump for years work, cultivating Goto and Trump it's whether it's a conspiracy theory or not since he was doing business deals with Russia. The Russians for the last twenty years or thirty years of people are surmising that he even married Ivanka for some sort of like eastern European money grabbing deal, right? That was in the documentary, we watch active measures. You gotta see I put it on last night just to like have it on and getting raged. But. So basically Michael Cohen because he's got direct connections with Russia, and he has direct connections with Trump. He was a huge heart facilitating Trump Tower Moscow. And then there's this other guy Felix sater's. So it's important that guy Felix sater's has yet to really come under too much like inspection. But he people basically think he's five for sure. He worked in Trump Tower in New York like the floor right above Trump. And he's also he's like in real estate in New York. He has direct ties to Russia Felix Sater. So he was constantly in contact with Michael Cohen about Trump Tower Moscow. He was one of the main people involved in the deal. He sent Michael Cohen emails saying that Putin could get Trump elected is before the election, and and the FBI CIA at fucking Washington Post. Everyone is seeing the emails where Felix sater's literally says November of twenty fifteen that's one year before Trump even one he says to Michael code, quote, our boy can become president of the USA in. We can engineer it. I will get all Putin's team to buy in on this. I will manage process. The have the fucking Email. Like what why why where where where do we think there was collusion? I don't know. I don't understand what more you need. And I don't understand such the emails where you'll luxury up for. Using personal server and you look at these emails ago. Yes said. You said what you can read it. And it's all that stuff is all in the dossier. That's why I have a blog. The guy's name is sugarman the blog is sugarman S eight S H U G A R M A N sugarman on that blog. He breaks all this shit down. But he has a link to the dossier, and he has highlighted the part of the dossier that matter so just read the highlighted shit in your mind explodes. Like all of this shit was in the dossier. So then when it comes out, it's like, you know, the dossier is true and talks about the Stater it. Talks about Michael Cohen talked about Michael Flynn, it talks about Paul Manafort. It's all there. And then it's all been proven true. Do you think that Muller is just waiting for the final curtain of just like the PS the resists those? Annette going to be like Shraga, basically, that's the I hope so because. If he doesn't the know Muller's running scared from something good now, it's time for scandal. Number six Russia and the Trump campaign. What straying? When you caught him. Put a resident. She like you see quickly. Shane south Ukraine. Throw you in. Go seeing any definitely is. Gordon, take goes to show. Excess women lackey lay. Office. No careful. Host or Jovan ocean end. Five to doctor doctor say don't try, but you're Putin doc Oto chair. Sit back cook on tape crime on no say. You had gone. So price. Benchpress men who is doing curls stowed Stoughton folks, cutting fall asleep daughter. Be for two hundred done. Spooked tootle with his nine go to sleep on his full. Me. The sex finals candle making up Trump gate is restaurants connection to the Trump campaign. Russian officials had more than one hundred contacts with Trump associates or the campaign. The transition Russians were literally talking to to John junior. You know, closest adviser is lawyer campaign manager the Russians offered help in underbody, Hillary Clinton, and no one from the Trump campaign alerted the FBI or any of these done not one. They never wanted to call the go. Hey, you know, there's like a Russia. They're like trend light, you know, subverter election at our democracy. So you wanna get narrow notes note so like with with the Russian contacts there are more than one hundred in person meetings phone calls texts Email. Male DM's DM's on Instagram PM's on Twitter like Russian jumping on Twitter talking to Don jR, about we got some shit on Hillary Clinton all the WikiLeaks. Shit was all three Twitter. So few can examples. Made the the context the Trump campaign. We can do ten episodes on it. It's like they colluded and it's clear. I don't think Russia was calling Hillary Clinton the whole time or Obama ole time or John McCain the whole time. It's just Trump. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, they say in the movie, they say that the Russians go after survey certain personality types, and that Trump has it all shading morals style centered. Watts money doesn't have a moral yet. Rape on you. I mean, it's basically so like a few key examples are Carter page. So he's at ugly weird looking guy. The wetness smiles all the time when he talked about not people always got a weird fucking maniacal smile on his face. He seems gay. He seems like a rat is so weird. So he went to Russia in July twenty sixteen DC, and he had a meeting with the with the owners of rose net. Remember, the company for Michael Flynn, the one that's all the dossier said that rose Neft or that that the Kremlin offered Trump and his associates eleven billion dollars it when they sold a portion of rose net Carter page went to bucking Russia in July sixteen to start the process of that deal. He met with rose nuts Hurter page comes off as like a. Innocent. He didn't do anything wrong. I don't know what you're talking about. But he's just a shady Michael Flynn. And then the whole thing with frozen it was it was all about lifting sanctions, right? Like, we'll give you the eleven billion lift the sanctions. And then we know for a back. This is a fact that Don, jR, Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort, they all were involved in the campaign, all of Paul Manafort was campaign manager, Jared Kushner, Trump's on he's the one in charge of all the fuck aid Cambridge politica. The internet social media push Don juniors assigned directly involved, those three people went to a meeting with Russians about sanctions, they said it had their own out. Oh, it was about like something about a Russian adoption. But like Russian adoption is a caveat on a longer list of sanctions having to do with money. Just like Bill Browder said they had a meeting about sanctions after Carter page goes in talks to rose neck clear. They were all. Trying to get a deal done in order to raise the stations to get rid of the sanctions like implimented Fort Collins was campaign manager like if I don't eat like Bill spit name that you guys all the time. And we try not to just like talk about it. Like, you know, who it is even if you just right now on her iphone fucking Google Manafort in just read is Kapiti like the guy had more Russian connections in bucking Victor curious, and he was Trump's campaign manager, Paul Manafort was actually literally factually business partners with Russian oligarch are all guards are big rich Russians that are in government. That are close with Putin right now. Correct. Yes. And they live as though they're in the mafia any Paul Manafort with business partners, which one of them, and then he became Trump's campaign manager. And I mean, you know, I can't even keep straight all the fucking shit. He did in the Ukraine, and he's fucking working for the cranny government, or whatever is doing he lives in breathe in mucking Russia and his job here in America is to do their dirty deeds. We already did a whole thing on pal Paul Manafort when he got charged but like. Paul Manafort is enough Carter page fucked your Kushner Moscow, just Paul Manafort allowed his presence as campaign manager, you're guilty. You know, what he is what you have? That's why you hire him. And then there's the whole thing was like George popadopoulos towards popadopoulos is everybody thinks the Russians by and everybody thinks bucket weird hot model girlfriend is a Russian spy as well. He was on the Trump campaign. He was a foreign policy adviser he flew to Russia during the campaign to meet about the Hillary Clinton emails, and then all of a sudden here comes Roger stone's also campaigned adviser Roger stone is setting up a back channel with WikiLeaks in order to facilitate the emails everyone in the campaign knew about the smoking emails. They they arrange for the stolen Email to be leaked and the emails were stolen by Russia for Trump. So right. Even with just glossing over those few key people. He still Trump will say he had nothing to do with. Russia had never had anything to do with Russia. We have a clip of fifty one timeless of him saying that he hates him and his associates saying they had nothing to do with Russia. Russia was a ruse. Are there any ties between Mr. Trump you or your campaign and Putin and his regime, though, there are it's absurd? We hear experts his house cat at home. Once said that this is what's happening with the Russians. It's disgusting. It's so phony I have nothing to do with Russia. I have nothing to do with putting Mr. Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs with the twenty seven. That's that's obviously our position is Mr. pages opened up private communications with senior Russian officials that he's certainly not doing it with for mission or the knowledge of the campaign Putin. Well, that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president and day. No, it's pretty clear. It's she always likes to time in with Russia. I have nothing to do with Russia. Folks anyone involved in the Trump campaign have any contact with Russians trying to meddle with the election? Absolutely. Not and I discussed that with the president-elect just last night not have communications with the Russians did any. Visor or anybody in the Trump campaign have any contact with the Russians, of course, not of course, not why would there be any context between the campaign? There's nothing that would conclude me that anything different has changed with respect to that time period. How many times have to answer this question? We don't know of any any contacts with Russian agents, you say that the intelligence community says that there were no contacts that story in the New York Times is complete garbage. There was no nothing. If the president puts Russian salad dressing on his salad tonight. Somehow that's a Russian connection. There's no collusion between me and my campaign and the Russians never ever ever. Did. I ever see anybody have contact with any agent. The entire thing has been a witch hunt. And there is no collusion. We have no dealings in Russia. We have new projects in Russia. We had nothing to do with Russia aware of any collusion isn't a Pauling and detestable lot. No collusion. Collusion's he'll collusion to the vice president ever meet with representatives from Russia. I'm not aware of anything that I have seen collision. Now allusion delusion yet this notion that we were colluding with the Russians, but couldn't remember the proper mailing address of our campaign in Pennsylvania is just from pasta. I can't imagine anyone had the time nor the wherewithal to go out there, even do something like this. The only thing I see misleading as a years worth of stories that have been fueling a false narrative about this rush. Collusion. Russia story is eight in total fabrication. There is religion. You know, why? Because I don't speak the Russians. Russia had nothing to do with me winning. No Russia did not help. Look. I was there. It's a total and complete farce. There has been absolutely no collusion. Okaloosa? My son still no evidence of collusion. The president nothing do with coordination collusion. Cooperate for been saying from day one. There's been no evidence of Trump Russia collusion and nothing in the indictment. Today changes that there was no collusion. We're looking forward to moving forward. And hoping that you guys can't as well. He's indictments last week had nothing to do with the campaign nothing to do with Russia collusion. No killers. I just don't put out there that there's a scintilla of evidence that shows Russian collusion. No, collusion Okaloosa. No collusion. There's no cooperation no coordination. Absolutely no collision collusion between the Trump campaign. And russia. I think that's a bunch of nonsense collusion now is dead. Because everyone founded after year of study has been absolutely no collusion. There's been no collusion between us and the Russians. Us. That what makes it even more of allies off in the Russians. There's absolutely maybe not you maybe you should just stick to saying. You had no idea. Everybody did it behind your back, which is sit there and go off everyone around him has been proven to have been fucking colluding that annoying word with Russia, literally every person every single one illu to bologna, and they'll say that just orchestrated too. She's eastern European. I mean every scandal. There's been six candles every single scandal is tied directly to Russia including fucking Jared Kushner Buchan security clearance, but the only one that isn't is really the hookers. But the thing that ties for me Daniels. Karen, McDougal hush money to Russia is that in the dossier. It says that he did all these perverted acts with hookers in like they're not even talking about. The pain on the bed. I actually didn't even read at the part with the hookers in the that up. But it implies does all this averted shit with hookers. And because now in about stormy Daniels care mcdouga- Dougal, we know he loves a Hooker. Yes. Well, and also his his wife and his otherwise and. I mean to pass judgment like that. But it's like he likes the woman of a certain, you know, genetic. Commits adultery in had that errors with whores hookers. That's what he does. That is exactly what he does. That's exactly what he does. I mean, we love Milania baloney is great Maloney was brought you're on visa Einstein visa visa of unsigned visa, which is Pacific for people who have a skill that. Nobody else has that could contribute to society. No way that no one else can in you telling me that Alania has that. I feel like doing this podcast was like doing the goddamn Muller report. And again that report is about to Christmas to be about to come out like really soon. They're shutting down the office opposites were Muller and his whole team were working like little by little each member of the team is like being released to go like finding another job their job is done. So that's how they know that it's wrapping up. So it's going to come out soon. It's probably gonna fucking come out this week while you're in Mexico. Out on information. That's out there. There's no way that report comes back not implicating Trump it there's no way it comes back that he didn't try to throw Justice. There's no way it comes back that he didn't have direct contact with Russia. There's just no way all I did was scratched the surface. And I feel like they should let me into the FBI like tonight. And if it the mullahs report comes back and Trump isn't implicated in any way for sure Muller's either scared for his life on a payroll or he's being blackmailed one of those three because the evidence there played day, the backup even the health. Just impeach motherfucker is bullshit only back to look at those scandals of the whole hookers. The campaign context of Russia Trump Tower Muskau Jared Kushner being denied security clearance, Michael Flynn in Russia in the firing of James Comey. It's really clear I mean. That Watergate ain't got nothing on motherfucking Trump game. So that's it for this very special Trump gate, evergreen episode of dumb gay politics. We love you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. We know the audio on this was pretty tragic, please sign up for our patriot podcast. If you haven't yet, the patriot podcast, and the people who subscribe to it really are very close to our arts. Yes. That is true. The patriot Ludd cast is where we keep it really real Nobel ticks no ads. No talk me about signing up for major so go to patriot dot com slash gay politics. And you can listen to two free ones to see if you like it. It's super easy. You can download the patriot app. Listen through that or you can get the R S feed and put it in your regular podcast player. That's what I do. Right in my five s four. That's right. So don't think it's it's complicated. Because it isn't. It's really really easy. Don't let the complication be what stops you end as all as it's been real in. It's been fun. But mostly it's been gay at it. It has been dub end Trump gate drug gay. Yeah. Kadewe are. First of all. Little bro. When you know. She thought she whether Ken. Don't get song out, by the way. To judge a book by car. He much of a man, but a lot of day, but by not. Justice. Vest diet. Trains sexual trade. So. Let me show you ally. Play with citing. Black grew. One something physical to this. We could take an old Steve Reeves move. I'm at home. Good. We use your phone. Both in a bit of a hurry. Right. We'll just say where we are then go back to the car. We don't want to be any worry. Where are you got caught with a flat world come about that well babies don't choose Tenet? Long civil. Two. Mckenna's justice. Sexual. Oh. Don't you? Stay for the night. Maybe a bite. I could show you my favorite obsession. I've been making a man. With blonde hair and a tan, he's good for relieving tension Justice trans list. From trends. Sexual transcend. Swint? Trans guy. Sucks. So come up to the left and see what's on the SLA. I see you shiver with 'em. But maybe the right is really to playing. Oh, remove the core. But not the symptom. Hey, guys, what's up? My name is Halen. And I am the host of what I like to call copy talks, and what the coffee talk podcasts are pretty much. Just exactly that. If we were sitting physically based debase having a chat over coffee the types of things that we would talk about copy podcasts go up every single Monday to start your week off. Right. And we cover everything from adulting to mental health to all the nitty gritty in between including gossip girl references and food related. You know, really thinks so whether you need a podcast to start you off on the right foot in the morning or to wind down with your decaf at the end of the day. I highly suggest you make your way on over and join the coffee talk crew because I mean, there's a space space for all of us here and the coffee is unlimited and free pouring. Let's chat all things life coffee and everything in between. Hi, guys. I'm Kyle Coleman. You might know me from cycle. Twenty four of America's next top model. Have a brand new podcast called soclean on this podcast, taking the ice shot of fitting in my heels for some comfy shoes. And I'll tell you all about what happens before during and after the runway each week, I'll be covering different topic in the world of modeling on not. So glamorous by nothing up podcast or you get your podcast. Soon.

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Democracy for Sale

Talking Politics

45:35 min | 4 months ago

Democracy for Sale

"Hello, my name's David Runciman and this talking politics today I'm talking to Peter Geoghegan from open democracy and Jennifer cobb from the trust and technology initiative here in Cambridge, we're going to be discussing Cambridge. POLITICA Money Power Corruption Cronyism. What really is the problem with our politics. Talking politics is brought to you in partnership with the London review of books. If you enjoy listening to talking politics, you'll definitely enjoy reading the lobby. That's why they publish a reading list of relevant writing from the archive to accompany every episode on L.. O. B. DOT CO DOT. UK. And also why you talking politics listeners are invited to subscribe for just one pound issue. For the URL. Hello beat dot me slash talk. That's Alabi dot me slash talk talking politics in partnership with the London review of books. Pita Jennifer let maybe we can start with Cambridge analytica because a report was published earlier this month as I'm sure you know from the UK Information Commissioner's office I think it was a three year investigation into. Cambridge analytic and what really happened and for many people the results were underwhelming. People who saw came co was the big bad buggy mine of. Recent democracy. One of the implications of that record is that. Came John Liquor weren't really doing anything that different from other people do anyway. So this view that there was something special about this firm they had some. New Super New technology new techniques that the money was allowing them to do things that no one else knew or understood. That was kind of Flimflam. If they projected that it was snake-oil, they would just doing regular slightly sinister, but in a conventional way regular. Uh. Campaigning and maybe around the edges misinformation almost it was saying there's nothing really to see here is how you read it. I think generally, yes that's that seems to be essentially the case. So the ice you the Information Commissioner's office said this letter to take slack many. Sort of October there's this fallen from. Investigation into Cambridge template of. What we can tell this is that the kingdom Monica weren't really involved referendum company, and for example, other than some really, very early work for I think vote leave analyzing Ye kit membership did and he asked me to do some analysis of data and did help target people with advertising spoke on behalf of the trump campaign but the extent of their role in that company and isn't entirely clear. But yes, the ICE US letter is. Straightforwardly, I don't say that came Liga weren't really doing anything particularly unusual in terms of their actual analytics they seem to have had some particularly birdied handling practices. But what they were actually doing with it's not really different from other parties and company have on for years while it where I would strongly depart from. The ICU is that they seem to think about the fact that they were doing the same kind of thing as other companies means this is all fine whereas I think the fact that a lot of companies do this is itself a real problem as far as I'm. Concerned. Apart from what Cambridge liquor potentially doing with trump campaign to help suppress convince potential vote in two thousand sixteen. The fact that they weren't doing what's different other companies doesn't mean that everything's fine and we north, we had to have real reasons to be concerned about idea is used in political campaigning. I'm real reasons to be concerned about micro targeting allies ready questionable actual practice Peter had you. You written a bit about Game Journalists Get. How do you see it now what do you think is the if there is one, what do you think the scandal here? I think almost two almost two unrelated are kind of relationship issues came on. The first is the issues Jennifer raises It's in the ICU reports wheelers Denham. Who is the Information Commissioner's kingdom? In her sponsor parliamentary commission, she talked about Seattle came John Reasoning very similar methods and processes are commonly use across the piece I. WanNa reasons. This was a big sky list although these things are commonly used the saying others zing to I think a lot of people were really surprised to find out this goes on this type of surveillance goes on place for campaigns and political implicit initiatives. So I think that's one of the reasons came China's was such a big It was that people really surprised to find out that they could be targeted. In this way what success runoff I think that's a huge issue. Think Jennifer's Toby Wright's I think we had this thing we've gone over. This is flying because no laws were broken but I think one of the reasons Cambridge analysts resonated so much people wasn't whether they broke specific aspects of data protection little or no or whether they did something was beyond the rounds of off the Ice Yo where under similar body light it was the actual content what we're doing so I think that's one big issue on the second reason in Cambridge, huge scandal. was just kind of players that were involved. We sold Channel News cargo regarding reporting on a to like looking at just how company operations and some of the things that they were found to be boasting of undercover their ability to get involved with elections and we did see them get involved with elections in other parts of the world that were far more aggressive than what we know about what to do with the trump campaign. For example, Dunne's Bagel. They ran this campaign that was all about basically voter suppression trying to speak the electors into afro-caribbean. Enough. Indian. Basically, campaign telling people melted, which was going to be something that was going to end it eventually suppress the afro-caribbean vote on benefited the Afro. Indian voted in Toronto Bagel some similar things happening Kanye as well. But I think the once you out of it, there's a much bigger question at all of this, which is is this old K is something that we should just alive to happen implicitly campaigning I, think that's one of the reasons Cambridge on alleged kind of sparked such a core with people. It did play into this idea that like Russia been involved measuring elections and all the rest when I think there's a tendency to see this purely in terms of. The voters are manipulation bill just by advertisements volkers can be a single voter can be targeting this way in told to do something that they don't want to do and I think that misunderstands away is find communication works. Basically happened is smaller political consultants Cambridge Online. It was a small Puska consultancy actually grocers diminishing industrial complex zinc grabs a defense contractor works for British Government Day set up shop. What they're very very able to do is seed messages seat misinformation into much wider ecosystem and does a kind of pleasure these organizations operation at any one time in my book, I, kind of conserved. Yes. Mentors by five or six under DOS around the world that do similar things on the problem is dave taken advantage of a complete lack of any regulation around this on the regulation just comes on to facebook essentially a lot of these until the last couple of years my talk about up until about the last two years, almost all campaigning online has taken place to facebook and really the problem we've outsourced the resignation of democracy to facebook. So it depends on what facebook lets you do. Our facebook doesn't and you do, and I think that's a much bigger problem than wetter someone's broken ICO regulations. And Jennifer you made that point in the piece in the Guardian a few days ago. You said two things that really stood out for me one of which was. The some of the perception run came journalist is kind of inversion of this idea of technological determinism that we live in this extraordinary age of technological innovation. So we have this tendency to think that the technology is doing and is responsible for everything, and so therefore, if election happens, we don't like the result somehow some sophisticated technology didn't really understand must lie behind it. And it seems that that bubble has been burst by this report but the other side of it that Peter says it points to the real problem, which is facebook and the fact not that doing this kind of electioneering hard and requires incredibly sophisticated tech people to do it in secret. It's easy. The in a sense is the opposite lesson we should learn from this. It's not that you need to her the very few people in the world who know how to do this facebook means anyone can do absolutely I don't remember but i John Not that I were on this podcast in March eighteen. So just fear the Cambridge online story. Really, play up into scandal when persuading what public and I think people said, then the real problem wasn't ready Cambridge and Alaska it wasn't even religious facebook. It was sort of surveillance capitalism and the rule of these companies in society generally. Success you've got like mushrooms growing in your garden and you want to get rid of him. You can cut the mushrooms away or the like, but let's get the underground structure that produces mushrooms you're going to actually solving the problem the mushrooms welcome back. Well, in this analogy Cambridge on litigators one mushroom of many facebook another platforms that use this business model are the underground structure on people like Peter, of course, been buying this from as well. But I think it's she in that much of a conversation on micro targeting is still so focused on Cambridge online again hasn't really on talk about these bigger more fundamental problems I think perhaps now said the report that's. Come from the ICU we might begin to see shift in that conversation, but I think facebook makes this thing really really very easy today and I think it's no surprise that people saw spooks targeted advertising tools and decided they were an excellent way to try to the political process. It wasn't just predictable. It was predicted by people back in the early two thousand and hands on I. Think there was a degree of complacency by this people just assumed that wouldn't really be a problem by believe bother looking into this. It's just the Internet I think that mindset really hostage. Peter when I was reading your book democracy for Silos Thinking about this, because I, think it connects to the other big theme of that book, which is and you touched on just then. Let's call it cronyism rather than corruption on of the things that Cambridge Analytica the story reveals is. The this little network of contacts, these revolving doors between US relatively small group of people and the fact that in government in campaigning and electioneering people often turn to familiar friends. Let's call and money changes hands. It's almost by default because you turn to the person his next to you and it happens to these people often hang out together. There's a similar theme in in your book about the role of money in Contemporary Democracy Pathetically UK democracy. There's a tendency sometimes to think well, what must be going on here is really powerful, rich wealthy people doing something big and sophisticated with their money and the impact of money on politics. It kind of belongs to the very few and the most dangerous coke bottle political players was actually in a way. What you reveal is something similar to the. Data Hubs Facebook Story. It's not that it's so hard and you need a lot of money. It's so easy and you don't need much money. This is this is about small amounts of money exchanging hands between relatively few people. It's small. It's an open door thing something very buried in sinister or my misreading you'll. You'll book no I would very much agree with us just you know take Cambridge idealistic aside for a second, you're talking about a small company. Run by a small number of people Blake Alexander, next Zeke educated well-connected into departments ministry defense, and you can cascade from there on a very similar thing happens across apiece in British politics when the most interesting because that's all I did for my book was intrigued at former Government Minister Bozo bed, actually a former member of the European research, which is a very. Interesting example is a small cadre of pro backbench Tory. MP's a very good example of the role that small amounts of money and dedication groups can have in. British politics. I'm GONNA bed said to me. You know the small amount of money goes a long way in British politics and he said if I corps from compounds like give it to a tank. Time. If I want to influence politics, you know we have things like anonymously funded tank times which don't have huge budgets compared to especially to America. It's very small amounts of money. An rarely is this depiction as were recording this. David. Hair series rolled kill is on at the moment very famous David Hair the constrain writer of British politics and it's all very scary. Guys James, bond, kind of Pastiche at times but it's all about big necessaries people behind big doors and big huge amounts of money. But I'm going to say having having seen the first episode exclusive. No particularly plausible. Just dramatic level. High with agreement your. Sex drive less than plausible and everything happens for someone falls in bed with somebody they just mashed and then embed they do some expedition and explain what's going on anyway puck that. Yes what I find more and more ambitious politics is it's less than. Having, you know kind of huge amounts of money from kind of scary men, stroking cats and more by these kind of person relationships. This kind of I think the word cronyism is a very good word to describe in the last few months we've seen and Britain. We sold a scandal involving the housing, Minister Rubber, Jen, req- admitted showing apparent bias in reversing kind decision, the benefit, a conservative donor Richard. Desmond. Happened after they'd sitting next to each other to Conservative Party fundraiser which calls desmond the princely sum of. Trials I was impounds which in Washington wouldn't get a meeting with lobbyists probably never mind access to a government minister I WanNa talk we telling after Bahari, who's a junior minister in the government was on day program and he was asked about this. What is it is this is a problem that you can buy access to political power very cheaply and he said, no, no, it just means anyone can go to a Conservative Party fundraiser last to a minister and I think that's a huge part of this thing. Called Elitist Group of Conservative donors of you give more than fifty thousand pounds a year to the Conservative Party wants to call you look at a meeting with the prime minister another senior cabinet ministers at the also record notes or kept no records captive who attends and I know speaking to some former donors adopt can be an opportunity to lobby as well. What was behind that? It's not necessary everyone who gives money to apparently is looking to lobby but what then comes down to track I? Think we've really seen. In recent months, the covert crisis is that you have access to government just becomes it becomes just a way you do things you know politician startle say working for a consultancy like Deloitte, spending went to government funders give money to parties who are also connected to similar companies. You have a meeting and I think this is a huge aspect to push politics. It's a bit like the analogy for us for emotions in your garden is this was just a couple of scary people giving huge amounts of money buying parties. In. Kind of conspiracy data something that you could actually just cut the heads also told US They Utah Today go away. But actually under girding structure is our Party's rely on private money. We don't have a system like in Europe two different conversation but system which parties funded by public purse. So they will have to go out and seek donations. We've actually seen in recent weeks the Labor Party. which some people have criticized for not being. Very vocal on funding scandals has actually pierce armor just quietly announced that they're going to echo the conservatively group I think they're calling it the chair. The Chair Group of top donors will get certain access to delete position as they hope, will be eventually prime minister before party conferences in Unseens, light dash, and so Rotterdam I think actually trying to tackle this I feel like it's almost becoming more embedded this sort of way of doing in British politics. And one of the things I mean this is a question for both reasonable and things. I've always found really hud my head around and PT describe in your book. So we're not talking about huge sums of money fifty, thousand, one, hundred, thousand. You can do a lot as you say with that and a lot of it depends how you channel it and setting up this little social organizations. An yet then when we talk about tech, we're talking about money on the scale that most people wrap their heads around here through this pandemic had been days where Jeff Bezos is, where can twenty billion dollars richer than he was the night before just looking at my five in the face but went up two point three, six percent yesterday on the. New York Stock Exchange let's. Twenty billion something. I can't wrap my head around this. I can't run my head around the mismatch between. The scale and the power and the money intact particularly but not just intact and the way the money works in politics even in America. The scale of the wealth of the the big technology companies is in a different universe from the amount of money you need to influence. Washington politics how we meant to think about this I come to it in my own head. I completely agree look the American presidential election. The trump campaign is burn true but a billion dollars that they've raised in fundraising the last few years Berry on successfully the Biden campaign is taking in records, money or more money than the trump campaign hundreds of millions of dollars, which traditionally we would have saw as huge sums of money but the damage is betraying justice huge goals between kind of silicon valley, tech giants, and even political parties in the story of facebook over the last six weeks. It's been very, very interesting are maybe a little bit longer. We know Mark Zuckerberg had tried meetings with Donald Trump you imagine those two men are in a room together ask yourself in some ways who is the most powerful enough relationship. So Cabrera is a multi billionaire. Now, he controls not just facebook. He controls instagram you controls what's up he controls did social media tubes by which someone like Donald Trump got elected in the first place. You I think it's fair to say not Cambridge on Michika rain. We'd I Enj- the Internet could you have seen the trump campaign ever succeeding in twenty sixty? It was completely integral to. So you could argue not situation trump is subservient to Zuckerberg, on what you've seen I think in the last few weeks is having previously been very standoffish in terms of kind of action facebook has been a lot more vocal because they now are worried the prospect of a new administration potentially doing something about them. So they've done things like removing Q. and on which is this conspiracy. Theory Cunanan sites across the platform become a lot more active on covert misinformation disinformation. But if you can imagine what happens with the future president of it is president. Biden. That kind of power dynamic power despite issue will remain on facebook has not just baseball silicon a across the piece Google Wellard huge huge companies. It almost don't need to lobby politicians in the way USA traditionally do they do not meet give money to political parties because they can lobby true the assets that they have on the sheer. Size that they have the European Union I think has a tined tried to hold facebook to accountant odor contact giants to account they have struggled in Westminster. It's not happen at all we seen Mark Zuckerberg refuse a number of invites to coming evidence before a parliamentary committee. So it's quite terracing. The direction of travel is is is. The power dynamic is completely skewed on. You can have somebody like nick the former Deputy Prime Minister Nawaz lice prices into facebook when Mark Zuckerberg was invited to give evidence to parliamentary department of Culture Media for Select Committee investigation to kind of what was called fake news. He didn't turn up but Richard Island and turned up on behalf of Sei's book, Richard. Islands a former lived MPC is now appear in the House of Lords. You have curious size of British democracy where you have a lobbyist who's also a life peer giving evidence before a parliamentary committee making very feeble excuses about why is boss home i? Think that's a really good example of the mismatch in power between the politicians and people talk all tech companies. Jennifer I'M GONNA put this is making it to sort of schematic but. The seemed to be if you think about the relationship between say facebook Google and government by the UK government government wherever three kind of potential issues one of which is is simply Money and influence, and let's call it lobbying. The second is the fact that government is dependent on these technologies and you can't you can't run a government department without using Google I assume I'm facebook and Google, and we're seeing in the US, there is some pushback because the start of this trust potential antitrust investigation into Google for its monopolistic practices but. With. The current monopolies they have just using your analogy. This is just the tough on which government operates a Nasdaq question of cronyism in connections kind of revolting Dole, and it's true in the case was in the US between government and some of these companies people who government to Google and vice versa. Can you so separate those out which is the one that worries you most. Of those three things in the relationship between government and big tech, I think those three things. The thing that would worry me most is the dependency on these companies. It's all engage China's government to try to change its relationship with them but while they remain dependent on them, but it's going to be very difficult to today but I think also it's not just government those dependent on these companies. It's kind of society as a whole. I think we need to stop thinking of them as being tag companies or does being like Internet services. They're kind of my in many ways sister to technical infrastructure that our society depends on on the have a huge amount of discretion in in designing their platforms whether it's the user interface or. The algorithms disseminate content or the targeting systems on those systems can be used or gained by by political campaigns or by people you have a more Farris Kennedy's goals to seventy. Conspiracy theories, disinformation I extremely violent extremism and all this kind of thing. I think we should really consider them at this point to be it already critical infrastructure for society especially now that we support them like we've all moved online in ways that we weren't really before a lower helping growing over the last fifteen years ago, become more dependent on them I think we need to consider the political effects as critical infrastructure I. Think we need to regulate them as tightly as we any other critical infrastructure langdon winner wrote in one, thousand, nine, hundred, the the design of even like seemingly mundane engine. Technologies like bridges compromise long-term policy facts I think we should treat the design and maintenance of digital infrastructure like soup words in much. The same way as we do that signed him interests of real physical infrastructure bridges on we have to be aware of the role that they play in politics in society and in government, and we have to be much more active than intervening on them because the level of discretion the half the level par they have result is I think a real series problem for society as a whole. Talking politics is brought to you in partnership with the London review of books. To come back at the end to the question of regulation, what we can do about it, but just pick up on that point about covert in the pandemic. On the one hand, it's revealed our dependency on the basic infrastructure over which there is seems to be relatively little democratic control, and then on the other hand pt written about this in a piece coming out in the lender view books, it's also giving us a kind of snapshot of some of the cronyism too. So certainly in the UK case, this question why why has Britain? On the whole done worse I mean it's relative here but done worse during this pandemic in its policy responses, there are lots of different explanations it could be demographic could be to do with the structure of British political life, and so on I mean the basic constitutional devolve structure but use suggest it's also got a lot to do with the fact that the default of British government and this isn't a party political point I mean as you say, there's a labor side to this too. There's a Lib Dem to this to. The default of government in Britain is a kind of cronyism not as not the deeply corrupt conned but you just you give the contracts to the people who you know you give the contracts is is kind of lazy is. It's not corrupt. It's it's lazier than in other places. That's what I took from. You'll account. Just to circle back to the very star briefly action same way as some ways, a conversation around Cambridge. ANALYTICA. Is More interesting about wash. It betrays a by how politics in the world works in wetter, a specific micro targeting vultures works. The pandemic. A sink in Britain, is less by. The number of debts whether Britain's had more deaths in other places but the efficacy of what Britain has done in the British approach to why decisions were made the way they were and it's really striking what I mean. But think about back in March as the pandemic started to hate actually became increasingly aware that we all started seeing television screens warning started coming. From all around the world, this is going to happen and the Government Westminster realize this too albeit quite late compared to some other states. But a couple of interesting things happen that the decision was made to Britney Love P, p personal protective equipment, which is correct. Lots of countries needed this. So how sources how to go about this? What would you do? The government decided to bring into county firm Deloche into the Cabinet Office the junior minister countless emphasis Khloe Smith's you used to be sold location as has been toast the company for a long. Time. To bring the company in Deloitte. Dan are in charge of. Hiring companies across Britain around the world to source p the furriest Lebanon's Deloitte experience a sourcing P. Equipment during accountancy firm, and it's quite from talking to people a guy who don't who are involved who tried to get in touch with the lights try and help us. They couldn't get through to this whole system didn't work and we also know criteria that they might PPA just didn't lots. phoebe did Narod huge sums of money were spent because what happened in Britain was the traditional procurement processes? Were suspended. So departments could just get money on straight allotted out money then went to companies that were close to government that were run by people seem to have a connection into government lost time. It seems to have been just because it was. Let's call a personal. They might know about this in we published a story on open democracy about Andrew. Gilligan the former former journalist Susan now working number ten ringing around labs looking for tests. This kind of April sorta time, which is quite unbelievable this. was been run internally and I think it speaks to the way things are being run. It's kind of quite a crony as approach where you just go and get the people around you what or not somebody like Daito harding who is served appear it was involved any procurement push in charge of annex s trucking trace, which is the kind of citizen supposed to find out what's happening to. Track people have Onto Testament, trace their contacts she was put in charge of Dash. Dot hasn't gone very well what ended up happening was dot has been rolled into a new body which will replace public housing, which she would also headed up without any appointments appear on appointed can any procurement process into a position and I? Think that's the big problem that you're seeing in Britain is the. Tendency to just look around the people next you the people let you know all from there people who are business contacts to get them in to do services on doesn't seem to react to whether these things worker colonels. So testing traces really not been working very well a huge amount of it was outsource to circle, which is a big the distance from again very well, let's see connected and circle don't have any experience in trucking trace. So what they did was day outsource to to around thirty companies. We don't know exactly how many companies circle refused to say on Department of Health and social care of us to say and is a bit of a suspicion behind actually doesn't know. How many sectors outsourcing of this, and this would all make sense if this was working with the track and trace is now down below seventy percent when local authorities are doing, it's around ninety seven percents. So there is evidence that keeping it in house getting local authorities do this works far better than outsourcing, but the responses continued sources Jusepin given yet another contract to do this under their talked about stock prices facebook circle issued an unexpected kind of note to the market. Last Friday in which they said, they got more contracts expecting to predict the profit to rise much more than they had anticipated. undersheriff body went up almost faced. So there's a huge sense in which like failure. Isn't penalized in the system because it's quite crony as just got the people you know than all the other ordering you continued on that circuit and whether it works or not doesn't seem to be a huge issue I suggested that this isn't just a party political issue I mean I think some of it does go back to the players means it's got some connection. I think with this sort of Principle Sofa government in a way that you you think it'll be more efficient if you do it with the people that you know and trust and you have relationships with. And as he suggests, there's no evidence that there is no evidence that essentially doing politics through personal connections is more efficient but do you think it's almost baked into the British way of doing government? This is actually this is the sort of ecosystem rather than this is a particularly either inefficient rule kronius government that we have at the moment. I think it can be both a my sense is probably as both we have a way of doing things Brinda does tend to kind of the same number of face I've been really surprised since I started doing this work. I've done the produced by book and other work just how small this number of faces are. It's not a huge concept characters who appear and reappear in lots of different gardens lots of different hat's true British, public life, an indictable writings base example, but lots of other characters who recur a number of times and I'm also until to the so many acts in British public life like American does in the play would never end probably. Sadat's won't. Aspect of I think it is slightly baked in this kind of gentleman's club way of doing things as someone who's didn't grow up in in Britain it's really strikes you. Once you start engaging in almost any aspect of what you want to call appreciate public lights I was education and a university in an unmarked journalist. So it's very striking. How does he's buying on how important they are, but I also think there is aspects of this particular government. Would I think go above and? Beyond what we've seen before I think it does very much come down from the top with this Boris Johnson more than almost any significant political figure last twenty, five years is shown shocking disregard Ford quite threadbare and regulations around the lice already you know. So for example, if you are former minister or former senior civil servants and you take a job outside of government, you're supposed to get vetted by a paper tiger cold and they say, yes, basically everything you can sound going to go. And Work, for the society's going to sell them arms, they will say, yes to bullish Boris Johnson. When he resigned as foreign minister, he signed a contract to go back and become a columnist Day Telegraph for seven hundred seventy, five, thousand times a year without running entice pass them day. gave him a slap on the race and things continue on his before. This isn't running team Boris Johnson, that's just one example a plethora of them and it feels as if dash way of doing things. Become, central to the Johnson Administration. You've seen government ministers outside of a small handful, become increasingly relegation to just their ability to powers message. It feels like, Robert. Generous still has a job because he will go out and defend what looks like the indefensible and workers govern Williams and still the education secretary which I think in almost any administration he would have gone quite a long time ago too. So it feels like loyalty is placed both competence, but also place the Bulls the perception of cronyism. In, my book I actually Rose Atlanta Bache scandalous did Liam Fox back in twenty eleven alantic bridge scandal and I won't rehearse it all here. But suffice to say the dame defense minister was running a think tank in America on Britain of funded by what what we call dark money anonymous donors at attorneys is that his best friend was attending all these meetings wish him around the world as defense secretary and this wasn't been registered. Q. Huge scrum fleets around the story became a really big story and it calls Liam. Fox is job. I think I would find it very hard to see a story like dash having the same impact. It's had Dan now I think Liam Fox with the stadium post. On not contain claim no expertise whatsoever in this topic, but I'm just peer when he sat there are that lowest price of anything else as. Part of the problem supposes that people were appointed not on their competence or their ability but because of how they voted on. Brexit. But also I think what I wanted to come back to you really was as their extent to which this is kind of a cumulus station of of of longer term transco back even before David, you mentioned the Blair. Years. But even earlier that there's a strong streak in among a certain skill of thought state isn't any good things are politicians who broadly with be from Scott Jars, thought becomes a kind of self fulfilling Blake. So you know for years, there's been this idea that the rule of St it is people said steering not ruin status to say should broadly to. Wreck things be send money to certain places, but basically leave it to you. External actors or private companies have to get things done on my. We actually need a strong sit to sort of take some degree of control. These kind of things we find that it's being so hard over the last forty years that account deduct competently I was just be interested. To know to what extent you think that kind of longer term trend ties in with what you're saying about you in the cronyism and and it being particularly bad with Boris Johnson's government. See if I could I think it's also true that there's a and this would cut across say we had a different government now say British politics has gone differently and The Conservatives were out of office and we had some coalition. Labor government Kobe, S&P government doesn't matter whatever it was. There's also it's got something to do with the the growing an inbuilt suspicion of the civil service, which actually does cut across party lines and the idea that you have to kind of bypass will get round the civil service to get things done either because the civil service is ideologically suspicious view because it's go kind of entrenched inefficiency built into it. I think that's been a big. It's a underground rumbling came in British politics for awhile, and we're seeing some of the results of it. Now in this pandemic that suspicion that mistrust between government and bureaucracy produces, it doesn't produce more efficiency I think both ways it probably produces cronyism. Thank. So those two points are connected as well. I would agree with Jennifer, I think it's been a long term project around the hauling ashes stage. I'm one significant chunk of the brexit voltage. The brexit vote has existed in parliament really coalesce around I think it's us with. The brexit coalition is something delivered the referendum result but also the actually existing brexit voltage exists in the British parliament's Some really interesting research on recently by Ukraina changing your project that looked at the views on attitude and values of politicians and people on vultures. I want they found when it came to Conservative Party was the conservative politicians were far far more libertarian than their voters, the voters McCain to things like they're stage and the Russia chewed business were quite one for better word centrists are SAS INTO CENTER CENTRE-GROUND Conservative politicians sock far far far more libertarian spectrum. What you mean by that is they have less time for the state. They see stages something inherently inefficient something golf's. Mice you Elliot's she ran the believe campaign. He coaches teach working for grover norquist back in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands in DC growth in our quest very involved with on much of set up the taxpayers alliance forty eating vote lease grover norquist's have been kind of a reaganite voice famously said, he wants to make the state. So small that you could strangle isn't a bathtub under is that kind of interest goes through is I think nuts fed into the pandemic assumption has always. been that the best thing to do bullsh- in terms of cronies approach. But also in terms of what is the best thing to do because it's an ideological belief has been to look outside the state and the private sector because that is inherently the right answer. So there's a kind of hollowing out to stake in place, but the civil service I, think has become part of them to civil service. I think in what is I think it's an American libertarianism that kind of seeped into Britain. Has Seen ceased government sees federal workers in American context in British contents, civil service as also inherently quite lazy. Am sexists on incapable of doing those jobs it needs to be done without having an exegesis of every dominant coming blog. It's quite fair to see a dominic cummings is incredibly influential person caricatures politics MB. He does see Civil Service as lazy infect right for a complete overhaul revolution of US and. If, you talk to civil servants it's white-haired a lot demoralization going on within into civil service, but it also speaks to kind of cross party sense in which civil service are the enemies of the things that we want to do uncivil servants have been blamed timing again across different political factions and they also provided quite an easy scapegoats for failings. You can blame it on the civil servants but again, I, think that's One of the differences with this current administration is you soul previously when something went wrong there was a sense that the bookstop with the minister few look at the exams fiasco that we had in August with algorithms. Exam results which widely kind of basic lender but a lot of people not getting a place in. College. The head of quality exams regulation. So basically to serve she resigned, but the Government Minister Winston Cactus job and I think. So there's a kind of sense for the civil services become even more of a punching bag and has become a thing that you can blame failure upon which I think whoever comes after this could be very difficult to reckon remain. These are large large institutions huge institution to change dot dynamic from the civil service being something that's blamed for for failures to some you could want to go out and execution a fully Tulsa government policy. I think could be really really difficult Following accusation of Civil, service company something has a really really long tail and not just way beyond the condemning. So that needs to the last question wanted to ask you which takes a bit back to where we started not just a question about the regulation of big technology but it's partly to do with that. This is a political system to the moment. The government has big reform plans for it. But it probably needs some reform in other ways, not least in the way in which we allow money and influence to sort of filter through the system. But the thing that has to reform it is the system itself maze the classic problem of Democratic Politics, which is that it's not easy, but it's possible to come up with suggestions about the kinds of practical reforms of solutions that might make democracy go better. But those reforms installations have to come out of our democracy became owed them from the outside. So the system that we need to change is the thing that needs to come up with the change and I'm I'm pretty skeptical. The happens very often I'm not I'm not just talking about in the UK. It's the classic version of is the US institution the Constitution Probably Needs A. Certain amount of reform. The trouble is the US Constitution and the way that checks and balances work in the American system makes reform ready ready hard said Tampa you have optimism that when you talk about different relationships between government and big technology firms, different forms of regulation. Do you have confidence that the system that needs those reforms has the capacity to generate those reforms? That's my question. I think in principle. Yes. It does I think generally the biggest barrier to address is kind of ideological immature people. Don't want to regulate because they see it says the job to directly. I. Think There's also. A serious problem and not when it comes to. For example, we were talking earlier by the micro targeting. It's very difficult to get politicians to agree that changing micro targeting mobile thing because they all use micro targeting, they overcame it in their elections they'll use it to disseminate information or company material to their potential voters. As you say it's it's trying to get the system to reform from within I'm very difficult but I think if people wanted to regularly tack than they could do that but they choose not to eat for the for those reasons I. Think he did you think of cronies system can reform. It's cronyism. If you speak to politicians who are honest about this, they will say probably not a huge problem Russia's even opposition politicians feel like there's something to gain for Dan within the current system they it's really broken. Like Jennifer mentioned by micro targeting of odds dig. Okay look. I think it's I think it's a bad idea but I used on it works for me and I think this is the fundamental problem is the Turkeys voting for Christmas aspect of US politicians do not want to change a system that has benefited them even if they can recognize huge huge rolls on I, think the question is, how can you build a coalition building those of the head of steam around the issue to force politicians to actually do something. At the moment in Britain, the signs aren't great is a plethora as ever of commissions inquiries into things like that extra regulation intellectual reform going on into comments in the House of Lords but the submissions to that would suggest the change is very, very unlikely to conserve. Parking submission suggests abolishing the electoral commission altogether, which is the elections regulator, and it's kind of a sense of these talking shops do happen lost on. Awesome what you get at the other end of. It is kind of tacit status quo and I keep on wondering what's the moment with our Democrats policy that will force some sort of change, and then you can start talking about the nuts and bolts of what could be done to change. This is lots of great suggestions out there. There's lots of things that actually work in other parts of the world but until you can get politicians to to vote for Christmas, you're GonNa really struggled to make much headway on us. Regular listeners will know that we have two quite. Of the past few years about facebook and surveillance capitalism including with Shannon Zubov author of the book the defined the term we will tweet links to those episode. You also find them in show notes as always. If you'd like to hear me talking about something a little bit different the be podcast. This week features an episode in which I'm in conversation with the novelist Benjamin markovits and we're talking about basketball Michael, Jordan, and the whole hand you can find that at the L. O. B.'s website. Next week. Helen Thomson will be back she and I will be talking about what? Donald trump means to us, and then it'll be the election and we will be doing a morning after the night before episode. Do join us for all that my name is Debbie Brunson and we've been talking politics. Right I. mean tonight. It's the box room. This hokey last echoing. What's Come from the big the big listeners. Hopefully, that will make a difference I was us.

facebook Britain Cambridge cronyism Jennifer cobb US UK Peter Geoghegan London review of books Russia America Donald Trump Dan Commissioner Cambridge Online Google Conservative Party Cambridge Analytica China Deloitte
Episode #39: WhatsApp's Self-Made -- and Disastrous -- PR Fail

PR & Law

42:00 min | Last month

Episode #39: WhatsApp's Self-Made -- and Disastrous -- PR Fail

"Recorded live from hong kong bronx onto this is the pr in la podcast. Skip er and law. Podcast with europe's mcmurphy and you and christie welcome to episode number thirty nine of the pr and law. Podcast i'm your host cam virtue along with you and kristy cameron. Un is an employment lawyer and partner doesn't trim llp in toronto canada and online at denture dot law. I'm a pr guy based in hong kong publisher of the digital bits pr and communications newsletter digital bits. Pr dot com. If you do the podcast please tell a friend and you can follow us on social linked in twitter instagram facebook. And you can subscribe to our youtube and soundcloud channels. Also you can sign up for our newsletter at pr law. Podcast dot club you and what's happening over in toronto. Well i'm on the night shift cam on the night shift which is exciting. I'm i'm drinking one of my your advent calendar beers. i have. I think these are relatively new. But i have heard about them and i think it's a fantastic idea i well. Hey i'm telling you right now. Is i'm sipping on one of them. It is a glorious idea. This was a christmas present from my wonderful wonderful wife and she got got me this twenty five days of beer from from the house. It's a a local brew. Pub here showed out in the house here. Now the wonderful city of toronto and Yeah it's it's a different beer every day. I'm way behind. So i'm only on beer fifteen. I didn't know there were calendar for january. I think you're way behind. I'm still catching up. It's supposed to be for december. And i i just i i don't know about you. I been while it's not like i mean i was a huge drinker to begin with but I've noted that while. I i understand. A lot of people have increased alcohol consumption during the pandemic but i might consumptions. Actually decreased quite dramatically. You know about you. I found the same. I found this just as i get older. The last couple of years in particular. Like i noticed alcohol intake has gone down quite a bit again like you. Not that i was a big drinker before anything like that but especially with the pandemic like the bars are closed here right now. Anyway you know in the evenings you can still go out there still to get a beer as sort of a roadside stand or something but yeah it's just i don't know with the pandemic as you're at home anyway. A lot of people. Like i have not shaved you and again in like another two and a half months. I don't look presentable. So i'd rather just sort of be my recluse in in the house here growing my beard. Well to that point. Maybe you should post a photo of your beard. I should post a photo of my hair. Says it is willing. it's getting incredibly unruly. Because i can't. I can't get a haircut. A total lockdown. There's no place. I can go to get my haircut I'm i am stuck and it is continuing to grow at. I mean i guess. I should be lucky at this at this point in my life. That my My hair still grows like a weed. But it's it's it's growing. Yeah you are lucky. They'd have that. Actually you and i'm growing a lot more here on my face. I am on my head. Continue the debate with us on social media joining us on lincoln. Facebook twitter instagram. Pr law podcast. All would work be aren't la. W podcast. send us your questions now by email to ask us at pr law. Podcast dot com. That's all one word. Ask us at podcast dot com or on social media with the hashtag. Pr la pod. That's hashtag r l. A w speaking of being locked at home or working. I think you have a question to resolve on this subject. Yeah this is a question. I have been getting a lot cam. Since the beginning of the pandemic and that is with regard to work from home expenses. And i've had a lot of calls from a lot of employees who have had to effectively build work from home offices overnight and it had to buy computers and printers and upgrade their internet infrastructure. All that jazz and you know as anybody knows that stuff. It's not cheap and of course they're wondering are they on the hook for that. Do they have to pay for it. it does their employer have some obligation to pay for it. Yeah it's a natural question. Because i mean people do have to stay at home. A lot of businesses have their their their computers in the office. Then don't provide laptops for instance or just other tools. That people might use from home with a printer or regular office supplies and things like that. So i mean are people on the hook for this or is there a way to kind of get their employer to pay for it. Well yeah i mean. The short answer is yeah. They're on they're largely on the hook for it. I mean there's there's no sort of legislative framework that protects employees in this regard that states you know thou shalt pay for for all employees relevant work supplies. Unfortunately you know. The law really hasn't caught up in that regard. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't sort of reasonable situations where he can turn to your employer so i mean all things and employment. Lock him the first thing you want to look to is the employment agreement. What does the agreement have. What does it say to. does it. Contemplate something about reasonable business expenses Most employment agreements do and if they do while i mean you know i i i. It's not unreasonable. To go to your employer and say well look. This is most certainly a reasonable work expense. And that's the fact that my computer no longer functions or it's completely out of date or it's not new enough that i can carry on zoom calls or my internet infrastructure. Whatever it is that you require to carry out your day to day duties and responsibilities you know. All employees effectively are within the rights to to confront their employers and say hey. Are you willing to foot the bill on this or at least contribute to it so contract is one then so people should take a look at their contract. See if there's anything in there that references These kinds of expenses or tools. Do they have any other any other options to pursue not really short. Answer cam again you can. You can speak speak with your employers and see if they're prepared to prepared to make some contribution. I mean the the other alternatives. We can look to camera our government subsidies right there any subsidies or tax deductions. I know for example Here in canada the canada revenue agency which is sort of the canadian equivalent of You know the irs They've introduced a new deduction for the two thousand twenty tax year for employment expenses related to working from home during the pandemic. So that's that's something Senior people should certainly look into. Is there anything that the government is offering in that regard. I i mean i. I looked into this briefly in terms of You know our friends to the south and unfortunately the situation in the united states isn't quite as as as favorable to employees in this regard as it is here in canada. What is kind of interesting. Is that apparently there was in the federal system Attacks break where employees could claim itemized non-reimbursed work expenses serve as part of their miscellaneous deductions but cam. This option was eliminated after the two thousand seventeen tax changes under the trump administration. I so he has. So maybe that's something that You know incoming president-elect biden will address but you for now you know. There's not a lot not a lot on the table. And i think we're gonna see some changes in terms of tax codes as we go forward cam because of course working from home arrangements aren't going away and you know unless you're self employed which is where you typically find those deductions. The tax code is going to have to get caught up in terms of addressing this as an issue. Yeah for sure i mean. I think that's important. The third item here. Though you in that i wanted to bring up is you know even if there's nothing in the contract and even if there is no government subsidy or tax deduction in the jurisdiction in which you're working. You can still ask your manager or your boss or your supervisor to do this because it can happen. I think a lot of companies right now are are trying to help their employees as best. They can get their work done. I think in many cases these companies are hurt. quite badly You know by by cova and they might not have the financial wherewithal to do so. But i think it's absolutely worth checking with them because you know there may be some way fee to do that. Even if it's just being reimbursed much later down the road you know in the business is in a healthier state. but that's another option as well. Well yeah absolutely right. And i mean here's the thing there. There could be benefits to the employer to providing Some sort of stipend or providing equipment like this to the employees in terms of attacks taxable benefit for the employer But then of course keep in mind that cuts both ways if your employer provides you with some sort of stipend in that regard then it becomes taxable to you when you're doing your income tax so you know employers might be able to find some benefit there if they're looking for some additional writeoffs. I mean you know if you're if you know your team Group of employees require new computers. That might be a good opportunity to capitalize on a write off like that. But yeah i mean you know ultimately cam you're right. I mean they've employees should be speaking with their employers. They should open dialogue around these issues and again in most work environments. The reality is. Is that if you've got enough employees who who make big enough stink about something. The employers are going to address it in some way shape or form. Yeah i'm gonna Digress here a little bit you because it reminded me of something that i've been doing throughout my my working career and that is i like to own my own devices rather than have the company on them and i don't even really know where that comes from because i've been that way throughout my entire life especially in pr because you have to have a mobile phone npr and you know reporters are going to call you at all hours and they need to be able to reach you easily and and my fear was always that you work in an effort employer for several years and tons of your contacts. Have your your your phone number there. But if it's your work based phone they can take it away from you when you resign and move on and you've lost all those people who had your number now number and so i always wanted to be especially for something like a phone number. That was my own sim card or my own phone. That i'm using so i can still control that even after i've left because i don't want to give the employer that kind of kind of control. I don't know if that's common you do other people do that or am i just a bit nuts. I don't well. i don't think it's nuts. I think employees might be wise to To to follow suit cam but you know you have sort of stumbled on a critical issue. And that's that you know that device that your employer is provided you with. Its your employers device. It does not belong to you. You do not have ownership over that device and and that might seem like common sense but you'd be shocked at the amount of cases that occur where you have employees that are terminated for just cause on account of inappropriate behavior conducted over one of those work devices once the the employer finds out so You know you've got you've got to be careful if you're going to go down that road so i i don't think it's the worst idea but again Is that within the confines of which your employer is going to permit They may want you using one of their specific devices particularly in a work from home arrangement where they know that they're going to be able to monitor your work activity. That's you know. That might be concerned for them. You know what and using your own phone for instance. I mean even in my situation now the employer if you want to get your work email on your phone. For instance depending on what sector you're in there's different sensitivities around this finance. It's very strict. They will often put different app on. Your phone feud access your your email. That has made by blackberry in canada but for for others oftentimes you have to install a certificate on your phone and that basically gives your employer access to your entire device. Anyway even if it's your own personal one because that's the trade off that. It departments have which is okay. You can use your own device and your own phone number but you have to install the certificate which gives us access to your email and things like that for monitoring purposes and just so you can get your your work email. So you're using your own phone it still not something you want to be careless with. You wanna keep an eye on what you're doing on there and still be aware that your employer in many cases still has access to that data. Well yeah and you know as we talked about last week kim. You're conduct outside of work storming storming. The capital for example could very easily result in the he terminated of your employment so Absolutely whether it's your device whether it's the employer's device govern yourself accordingly moral of the story don't storm the capital Anything else on this one. Yeah well i mean a few quick points show first of all for new employees who are looking to execute employment agreements. This might be consideration. It's certainly something. I've raised in employment agreements. I've negotiated on behalf of employees recently. I just finished putting together last week and one of our requests was a work from home. Stipend saying you know we want x. Amount of dollars every year for this employees to ensure that he or she can can purchase the necessary equipment that they require to maintain of a functioning home from work from home office. So you know if if that's not something that's in your contract and you're looking to execute a new agreement with an employer. It might be something you wanna consider negotiating because look. I mean this work from home thing. It ain't going away anytime soon. So you best try and capitalize it on it as an employee as best you can very good advice anything else well one lasting well in last thing and that is you know we talked about. You can't really compel your employer to provide you with with this equipment. And and foot the bill while i mean one one example where you could. Is you know most employers have a duty to provide a safe working environment for employees right so just because you're working from home if there's a particular piece of equipment i mean i don't know i'm trying to think of situations where this would would apply You know if if there is something that you are required to ensure that your work environment was safe and it was sort of integral to your day to day working activities and duties. Well then that might be a situation where you could turn around and ask your employer to foot the bill. Yeah that makes sense especially for for things like that. And i would guess to things like securing information again depending on the sector that you're in sometimes the information that people are handling a really sensitive and there may need to be sort of extra protocols and around sort of information management. Aren't you yeah. Those are those are good tips Do you have anything else on your on your tip list there. No only only to say that. I'd really like to see some consultation here so this is where governments and need to sit down right. We need we need members. We need elected officials sitting at the table with the public sector sitting down with the private sector and having a discussion with employers and employees. But how are we gonna tackle this problem because we know that this is going to be a new reality and this isn't just a pandemic related thing when the pandemic ends we are still going to continue to see far more. You know this proliferation of work from home range. Yeah they're not going away. So how do we deal with this. How do we deal with it. In terms of our employment law had we deal with in terms labor codes. How do we deal with it in terms of tax codes all of this stuff camp. It's going to have to be addressed because this is the new working world and you know we gotta figure out a way to get it fixed so your support to the be or in la podcast by making a one time donation or setting a subscription with his arm on every little bit helps. Keep the lights on and bring the show to you each week. If you like to ship in please visit me or in la. Podcast dot com. That's pr la. Podcast dot com. Click support this show. Thanks for helping us out you and there's a couple of things. I want to tackle this week. I'd actually prepared to talk a little bit about the personal qualities or or character traits that a good. Pr person would have because there was an article about this. I found quite quite interesting. But what's app stepped into a massive pile of you know what this week. And i think it's a great example of how poor communications can really impact your business in a real tangible measurable way and i know you use. What's out did you get a message from them last week by chance. Oh i sure did cam. And i'm really really happy. You brought this up. Because i spent a long time actually friday night as a matter of fact sifting through what's apps terms and conditions and its privacy policy and what a bunch of google's goop as somebody who has to read this kind of stuff on a day-to-day basis Was all these sort of opaque references to facebook about. Oh click here to determine how we share your information with facebook and then you get there and say no no you gotta click over here. So i'm i. Yeah i go on cam i wanna i wanna dig in. Let's let's let's get this sorted. Yeah and i think we should have some context here as well. I mean what's up was an individual application. That was started by two guys who eventually sold it to facebook. Many years ago for a song turns out and so facebook is owned whatsapp for many many years. Already and. I'm still surprised that a lot of people aren't aware of that. Because i think right away i mean facebook. We've talked about facebook multiple times on the show including last week just about sort of the way. The company operates and some problems that the company has and how it's been detrimental to us democracy just to say the least but anyway the founders did leave the company in twenty eighteen and this was a story at the time because they said you know they built. What's happened even at the time of the sale to facebook. They were assured that it would never mix with facebook. Whatsapp would be kept separate. Its data would be kept separate and there would be end to end. Encryption and it would not interact with facebook data in any way and even back in two thousand eighteen that was changing and the founder the final founder. Who was still there left in disgust at the time so it was a story back then the issue this week is you received a message as did almost two billion other people who have whatsapp installed on their phones and the message was poorly phrased because it basically said that you know the privacy conditions and the terms and conditions are going to change because of what's at businesses and facebook businesses which is basically what's app is opening some new functionality which is going to enable people to interact with businesses through. What's up some of that is already out there as well. And they want to change the privacy policy basically to address this however that wasn't main entirely clear in the message and the message also said the users accounts would not no longer work if they don't accept these changes by february eight which is just a few weeks from now so naturally un. I mean people panicked. People began looking around for an alternative There's a lot of negative posts on reddit and across the internet about this and people were angry at what's out for changing these terms and working more closely with facebook and then be trying to find something to replace it and i think it's fair to say you and you kinda fell into this boat. It's correct i mean. What did you go about doing besides reading all the legal jargon in light of this message well i suppose this is probably the simplest answer to your question and that is that i am one of the newest members of the signal app So so that. That was what i did. And i knew i can tell you I knew i had never even heard of signal prior to To last week. So i'm hey i guess that's great for for their company. But yeah i immediately did what i guess. A lot of other people were doing was. I started looking for an alternative. Yeah and you know. This fascinates me. Actually 'cause i always wonder how do people settle like. How does the group settled on this app. Or this service. I i think it happened. At the beginning of the pandemic zoom became the de facto videoconferencing app. Actually there's many out there. I'm not sure why zoom was the one that is now used by everyone went across the social networks and late night television and became the the one and i feel like signal is kind of in that position right now as people leave. What's up and there are other solutions out. There i know telegram was one that people are moving to Telegram also was big in hong kong. I mean after the protest took a turn in two thousand nineteen people were worried about using facebook products then and telegram just exploded because you get an alert any anytime. One of your contacts joins telegram and my phone was popping every day with people. I know adding telegram so a telegram and signal or both are both good signal is really the most i would say. It's that got the strongest encryption insecurity around it it is. It is a very good app to use. If you're are concerned about security and privacy and things like that but anyway i mean back to the situation. I mean people really did leave. What's up in droves. At least that's what the data is showing so many people signed up for signal. Un it crashed on friday. It couldn't support them for a time. So it's a it's a big change and facebook finally came out or sorry. What's app came out on saturday and they posted a blog post. That was was. I want us term conciliatory. It was very polite. Basically saying that its previous message. Caused some confusion and that nothing is changing in terms of how it manages chat data and that is what people were most concerned about is that what's app is going to be looking at your at your data and keeping that information and then using that to to to market to and they reiterated again that this is really around whatsapp business and facebook business. And that's what the changes a four and so. They are extending the deadline to come to terms with these changes to may fifteenth. Now there's a couple of things. I find interesting here number one. They haven't changed anything. They've just delayed the time. This is provided more time to read the terms and conditions. Which i don't think anyone really is going to do aside from you and and you know maybe some other some other lawyers so it's not it's not a material change to me. I think you know the mistake here really was in that message from last week and the way alarmed account would be turned off and that is the way that it read and it's still not really directly addressed by what's out even even now with. The deadline moved to may fifteenth so. I think you know what i wanted to mention you and is really talk about the fallout from poor communications. I i think this is such a great example that you know oftentimes pr people deal with their own executives or or third parties and talk about why we have to write it this way or why we have to proceed from this approach and sometimes it can seem like being were overly cautious or or were too conservative or too risk averse or whatever it might be but this is what goes wrong if you don't if you don't look at it carefully and you don't phrase it carefully it looks like potentially hundreds of millions of people have opened chat accounts on other platforms on account of the way that that notification was worded last week. And you know that that's really difficult for what's to recover. Well you know what other interesting point. You raised their cam. Is it's not like facebook's ownership of what's app is anything new. But what is new. I think is that what notification went out. I think there were literally millions around the world who all of a sudden were faced with this reality of wait a minute facebook runs. What's up Because if you if you look at the way that the app itself is sort of you know the logo the way that it functions. There's no. there's no facebook logo. there's no facebook coloring. There's there's nothing there that unless you're sort of poke around Or were inclined to sort of research these things that would lead you to believe that. This was a facebook product that you were using and obviously people feel very strongly about facebook one way or the other and i suspect that for the first time had inadvertently What's app has brought to the attention of its users that this is a facebook product. And i imagine that the attrition has a lot to do with that as well. Yeah i think so. And i can't wait to see numbers on that. I think we will get numbers on that At some point when when the surveys are done about why this change was made or why they moved to a different platform. But you and i mean you make a good point here because instagram is in the same boat right like it's also owned by facebook and a lot of people are not aware of that. And i think aside from this subject in terms of you know facebook's ownership there's something else that is different now which is just public is a lot more aware of the importance of this data like if you go back a few years even before two thousand sixteen which i kind of market the turning point. Because that's when cambridge politica you know the the big Election scandal happens where they were harvesting data from facebook before then there wasn't really widespread recognition of what data collection means. And what it's being used for. And now now there is like you're right people see facebook as untrustworthy by and large. But they're also aware of their own data. Because there's been a number of hacks you know a very high profile organizations including government ones in where their data has been leaked and they've had to go in and changed eight or change passwords or or update things and so this matters and so we're in this time where when what's absence this out. It is a lot more alarming. If they would have sent a message like this in two thousand fifteen. I wonder if there would have been the same reaction so i think those two things combined to to really hurt. What's in this case. Yes question. I ask you almost every weekend. So what do they do. is whatsapp. Do how do you fix this. You know. I don't think whatsapp is going to fix it. And i say that because it's owned by facebook i don't i mean in general and maybe i'm a bit naive. I do think that companies want to do the right thing in general. i mean. there's some some obviously bad actors out there and some questionable sectors. Of course. I certainly am aware of that but i do think companies do want to to the greatest extent protect their customers and make sure that their data is safe. But i don't think facebook does facebook needs data. I think we when you take a look at facebook and google. They're the two companies that provide services free of charge and the reason is is because the exchanges they're getting data and that data can be sold for them to make money and that's through advertising. I mean google and facebook of basically sewn up the advertising market between the two of them. I it's almost not worth going anywhere else to advertise something. Because of the vast stores of data those two companies have and so. I don't see what's going back on this. I think you know one thing they could have done to avoid. This was when sending that message. Oh just be very clear about what it is because obviously it wasn't clear based on the reaction from people and i think using terms like you know making the data on or making their accounts unavailable. You know that stuff that that alarms people. I mean what's up. It's not just any old app. is families. use it to connect. I mean it's important people if you shut that down i mean it's gonna impact a lot of people who rely on it so i mean these things were predictable. I think when you take a look at that. And i think now what's up is is really just going to spend the next couple of months trying to explain these changes but it might already be too late but i mean also camping. What percentage. I understand there's been some significant attrition but the reality is and we know how tech works right. It's that people want to be on the platform that most people are on so if the majority of individuals stick with. What's app i mean. Isn't that just going to remain the defacto app. That people are going to use. I you know. I was actually thinking about this practically as well right. I mean my family. We have what's whatsapp channel that we share photos and communication with and i was thinking to myself. Well i've migrated over to signal. I'd love to get them over to signal as well. But then i've got it now. Try and effectively be a spokesperson for this app of una. No hey it does all the things that whatsapp does on get it. You know none of your other friends are on it. All but blah blah blah but just just do it because of data and i think sadly the reality is at the end of the day that people will continue to go where everybody else is even if it's to their detriment from a privacy perspective i mean. The only generally agree with that. I think facebook's entire business rests on that premise. In fact because right fair point they yeah. They're counting on people not doing it. I mean they know that it's difficult to switch and to move people to another social network because the more people that are are brought into a social network the harder it is to leave right like once. Everyone's there and there's almost two billion people on. I mean it's a third of the world almost so yeah it's it's not going to be easy to switch. I guess i mean what. I'm hoping for is sort of a consumer advocate would be that people do care. Now i think in the past it was sort of just something. They accepted in order to to communicate via tely with their friends and family and colleagues. But i think. I hope now that this does matter to people and this little effort to download another app and sign in is worthwhile to people. And i think you and you're probably right. I think a lot of people that won't be worthwhile. And i i want to know though too. Like like whatsapp isn't and everywhere First of all there's two billion accounts according to the latest figures. They're not being used. So i would like to know sort of once apps what. We call emmy monthly active users because different parts of the world have different apps. That are strong. So what's that for. Instance is not particularly strong in the united states. So it means a lot less there. But it's very strong in asia and it's quite in canada as well so there are different it strong in different markets. It's strong all of them so for some people. This isn't going to be something that they have to deal with It's only going to be a big deal for for for people in countries that use whatsapp apple lot and hong kong is one of those places. Almost everyone here uses what's app. And that's why i'm on it. It's really decatur to to the people People around me which. I suspect others are going to have to while okay so you think you're of the mind that what's app isn't really going to make much of an effort in terms of damage control here that the affectively take the position that facebook has always taken which is yeah people kind of jump up and down and pound their fists but ultimately they'll go get over it and they'll continue to use the service. Yeah i think that's about right you know. I do think they are going to try and do damage control though. But i think it's going to be in the form of explaining explaining it explaining its changes not changing any policy you know. It reminds me of the extradition law in hong kong from a couple of years ago which triggered all those protests. If you remember you and the extradition law was that you know people would be able to. Under some circumstances be sent to mainland china fraternal and people want to change and the chief executive just kept saying no. We'll sit down and explain it to you. The problem is you just don't understand it. It's not a problem with the law. It's a problem with the understanding. I feel like facebook whatsapp. 'red are are going to do the same thing in fact they've already started with the message they're saying there's nothing wrong with the change that they're making it's just that they didn't communicate it well enough And i think there is some merit there in fact it does mostly have to do with facebook and what's up business but again the damage is done and i'm not. I'm not so sure they can say anything that would suddenly make people go. Oh okay i get it. Yeah you just misspoken. And i'll come back now. You know. i think trust is really gone with this company in general well. Yeah i guess. I can appreciate that. Yeah this is a good subject though. And i just want to stress again that this is this is this is bad luck. This is really bad for for what's up. This was a mess of their own making. This is the worst kind of pr crisis. This is something that was avoidable. And i think you know somebody is going to pay the price for this internally at whatsapp slash facebook. In a big way this is. This is a really big own-goal for the communications team. I'm not even sure who sent out that that message. You and it's possible that it wasn't sent out by the communications team because it was a product message right so it could have gone out from. Engineers are from another department in the company and maybe it didn't go through a communications channels to have a look at it But this is exactly why. Pr teams exist is to avoid this kind of own-goal just again i find it so hard to believe that a company of that size and stature would make such you know sort of a bush league mistake because you're absolutely right. I mean there's nothing about that message. That read is though hit. Had been vetted by someone who is a credible beautiful pr person. And if they are i i suspect they no longer have a job. Yeah i actually. I want to do a bit of a turn here because i do think companies. Pr teams would look at anything that goes to the media or anything that goes to the public right like i think that's sort of where it should be like. Anything is being mass disseminated. Should at least the pair team should have a look at it. Just to make sure but i do think it's possible in these companies because notifications within an app. I mean it's it's more products related right and and you don't want to push products things through pr. Maybe like i can see how that may not happen and that may be what happened here. I'm not sure i'm speculating. But i can see how would happen. I mean we. We had this incident again. Just an example. I worked at subway operator here. I mean we have a control center that sends out messages to the public and we learned after a while like the way they worded these messages to the public when there was a train stoppage or delay it was alarming and we had sort of take control of that a little bit and it wasn't it wasn't that the situation changed how we worded. It changed a bit to just be a little more sensitive to things and it could have been something like that at what's out. It just didn't go through that channel and thus it didn't didn't work very well. But who knows. And lastly the last one i'll make on this. Facebook has a long history of poor. pr decisions. And i there's a lot of shows are archive that review that and go through them so this is not exactly out of character. Either i i feel like at some point cam. We should try and have a facebook executive on the show if they would lower themselves onto our program because we we do seem to be taking shots at it frequently at least give them an opportunity to sort of put their perspective forward. And i think we'd probably be well suited to take on a conversation like that given What i do for a living and what you do for a living we should be able to sort of. I would hope pick apart the arguments. Check this out. Check this out. Check this out on the pr in law podcast. Okay you in. What do you recommend today. Anything exciting new exciting i. I really enjoyed it though. This was an article From from the new yorker. And you know. I was talking about being behind my advent peers cam. I'm i'm behind in my my reading as well so This was this was an article from from a new yorker december new yorker of last year on. It's titled the photographer who out to watch herself. Age detainees this article. I know you. I know you. Subscribe to the new yorkers welcome. I don't know if you know. I have not read this but i think i've seen it mentioned somewhere. I tend to like this kind of thing so go ahead. Yeah so it's an article about nancy. Floyd is her name and she collected nearly four decades of self portrait's and has compiled them in a new book titled weathering time and this was sort of an article just about the process making that book in compiling the photos and the story behind them so the collection cam it includes over twelve hundred black and white images dating back to nineteen eighty two. She started at the age of twenty five Taking a self portrait portrait every morning. And you know the idea was to take them for about twenty years and social experiment so she could watch herself age but quickly realized. That actually wasn't all that interesting and what was much more interesting. was photographing important people around her friends and families Including herself of course and she started skipping weeks and then she was skipping entire months and then she says she skipped a significant chunk of the nineteen ninety s But what is really wonderful about the article and about the photos that are in the article as well is. They're all very very simple. Black and white there is. There's nothing particularly You know fascinating. there's no vanity in the photos. Were expression remains almost identical in every photograph for over forty years. Interestingly in the in the latter part of the process she starts replicating some of the photos from the early years. So you know. There's one photo for example of her standing on her front porch In a particular fit and then thirty five years later she somehow finds basically the same outfit and takes a self portrait of herself in the same pose on a different front doorsteps. Just lots of really interesting stuff. And all through the process you see the technology age around her and fashion change and members of her family and then members of her family of course have died and it really is just It was a really cool story about a life. Cycle captured captured in black and white and Anyway definitely worth checking out you know. I love stuff like that. You and i think maybe it's the result of just getting older myself but like the process of aging the changes. That happen sort of psychologically and and to the body and just sort of how we evolve over time for some reason. I do find that really interesting and each step along that process. I love this kind of story and these kinds of photos. So yeah absolutely. I'm gonna. I'm gonna dive into that one for sure. Yeah we'll just the.

facebook canada la hong kong toronto mcmurphy kristy cameron elect biden twitter whatsapp Un Whatsapp cova christie lincoln irs google youtube europe united states
Movie Night: Clue with Mueller, She Wrote

Gaslit Nation with Andrea Chalupa and Sarah Kendzior

1:07:28 hr | 1 year ago

Movie Night: Clue with Mueller, She Wrote

"I'm Andrea Chalupa, writer, screenwriter and producer of the upcoming journalistic, Mr. Jones, I am Saragan Zere. I'm a journalist scholar, third Tyrian states focusing on the former Soviet Union and the author of the essay collection, the view from flyover country, and today on our show. We have very special guests. The mysterious dinner guests of Muller she wrote, so we'll be talking to them and just a bit the first Seren. I wanted to announce a big announcement. We have after several months of debating, each other put together, a very special summer reading series, the get gaslight reading series, which is a toolkit to defend ourselves against the inevitable gas lighting leading into the twenty twenty election because nothing has changed. And no one has learned anything, including the media. So those authors that we interview over the. Summer, which were so excited to share their insights with you include, Malcolm Nance, author of the plot to hack America. How Putin cyber spies and WikiLeaks. Try to steal the twentieth. Sixteen election, the bunch great books, which we'll talk about with him house of Trump Hausa Putin, the untold story of Donald Trump and the Russian mafia by Vanity, Fair, contributing editor Craig Unger. And also the very brilliant, Olga Lottman in expert on the Russian mafia and Trump's many decades long's ties to the Russian mafia, who was a researcher on that book an uncivil war, taking back, our democracy than age of Trumpian, disinformation, and thunderdome, politics, by the Washington Post, Greg Sargent, author of their blog, the plumb lines at the Washington Post at the Washington Post, and how to be less stupid about race by professor crystal. Marie Fleming, a very important book which we call a multivitamin essential reading, because as we keep pointing out on his show, the vast majority. Of the newsroom's remaining in America after decades of decline are filled predominantly by white men and women. So a very good book to open people's eyes up to white supremacy and why it's so essential to where we are. Now how he got here in all of it. So we hope you join us over the summer for that. We're here with Muller. She wrote after just 'cause playing the movie clue among each other with each other for the last twenty minutes, we kid, you not Justice set up our recording arrangement was like three alternative endings of clue. Turns out the gun was in my purse, of course it was AG with the wifi in the dining room with zoom. I'm so we are so excited because for a million different reasons, but for those tuning in who are not familiar with the movie clue for whatever reason we're not going to judge you at all. Clue is to simply put one of the greatest movies ever made, and it is based on a board. Game came out in the. Nineteen eighties. And it is the story of a dark and stormy nights and a mysterious mansion in the middle of nowhere with the moon. Hanging lowness in the sky, and all these strangers. These shady strangers show up for dinner party having all received a mysterious invitation and throughout the night bodies start dropping. And we find out how this group of strangers came together, what their connections are and who's really at fault in, in terms of his body cow keeps growing, and it's just a matter ATI count. On as a character mister body. And so we are going to basically be breaking down the film paying tribute to it, and how it's impacted our lives and made us the women we are today as well as pointing out the very obvious parallels to the transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government that we're All Burma. Yeah. Situa- lot of compromise. Always people in this film, a lot of compromise. And so the ladies of clue are going to help us break this. The lease of Muller. She wrote and we're going to help us break down break this all down. And we went also nounce said, this is the first ever movie night resistant cinema between gaslight nation and Muller. She wrote, and we're going to continue doing this. We we're gonna launch clue Muller. She wrote gets to pick the next film. I put my requests in, you know what they are. There is not thrilled about them, and they're going to be they're going to be movies. Help us make sense of the world. We live in at ourselves in these times and give us him. Well needed break. All of us both show. Yes, indeed. And I would like to mention that I probably one of the reasons clue came up is because we use a clip from the movie clue in our opening sequence. Don't make about you. From miss scarlet, and I, I'm just very proud of that clip. Well that turned out to be what they call a coincidence. And yes, Malcolm Nance says there are no such things as coincidences, but I will say that there was this mean going around Twitter saying name five movies that are absolutely perfect. You wouldn't change a thing. And I did my five which included clue and then the Sarah chimed like she normally does with some bullshit. And. I replied saying, I'm always in the mood to watch clue and then a g came in next thing or this chatting it up, we're going to do a clue up. We all of clue. We're all like eighties children. Right. We all grew up watching clue, which is completely inappropriate for children. I'm now realizing that. Like Mr. Greene was gay like, who knew. Yeah. And the best part is, you've got Jane we'd land. You've got Jane Weeden, who stars as the singing telegram, and she's the Qatar for the go Go's and then you've got being who is the lead singer of the punk rock band fear. He plays Mr. body in this film. And so it's just kind of this cool crowd like music crossover from the eighties as well. Yeah. No. It's a masterpiece. And so, I mean, Tim curry, how many conic roles has he has he plays Wadsworth the Butler, he was in rocky horror picture show, the clown it, and he's had so many conic roles. And so he just such a great perfect wouldn't change a thing movie. Let's get to it. All right. So Sarah, and I watched the movie together, we took copious notes. We're seeing that you ladies being given how deeply research I've done the same. Yes, I do have pages of notes here, and the first note is I'm the Butler, sir. I bottle. Okay. So, yes. Exactly. So buttering is our new name for crimes for committing crimes like so Manta for, but Butler is a lot, right? He's buttering. He's butlering battled. Are there other connotations to mind? But go on girl, I think Sarah wants to say something what? Oh, yeah. Well, I was thinking, we need to introduce like Muller. She really we should all other because they're on our show. They shouldn't sorry, we're being really bad butlers. So for those of you who do not know Muller, she wrote, they are all girl crew. Of crimefighters, who have been painstakingly, documenting one of the biggest crimes in human history, which is, of course, the Kremlin hijacking of our democracy with the help of many useful idiots across the Trump campaign and their entire network and they and they do brilliant, work. They bring together, a lot of major experts legal experts and law enforcement experts and so forth. They've had for instance, Andrew McCabe on their show, the deputy director of the FBI, who was who Trump terminated before he could collect his pension, which is extraordinarily cruel. And you've had a lot of other stellar guests coming up in like you've had us are obvious career highlights now. And you want to tell us each down the list of the three of you three magnificent women. Yeah. Sure. I'm host AG. And with me as always are Julius Johnson and Jordan, Coburn Helou. All right. That's it. This is the first time we've talked somebody's got break the ice. And it might as well be me and it's always difficult. In a new group of friends meet together for the first time to get acquainted. So I'm perfectly prepared to get the ball rolling. I mean, I've no idea what we're doing here or what I'm doing here. Or what this place is about the I'm determined to enjoy myself. Thank you. Mrs pika. Yeah. Talking about. They're both thing. Random exactly. To break the to hide. She's so funny. And I love her hat thing with keep this shitsus flying around keeps getting stuck in her mouth and her glasses. She's just so funny. She's the best one, we were debating who is the best one in MRs peacock is my childhood Fave. It remains Nadal and con as my favorite we. Yeah. Lames got three. On the side of my face. Heaving breaths. Yes. By far my favorite, and she's slurping the soup her subtleties or magnificent. She's on her fifth, husband all have mysteriously died. Let's ask a gas, let nation, ladies, or what do you think the symbolism of, of was, I think it was Seuom lurking? Yeah. Because two people it was Plum, white while you guys are going deep. Really? And I was wondering, you know, are they defying a subpoena somewhere, like why are they? They're speaking in code. It's like when the president says to a journalist metaphors a good guy might consider partying him. It's like the maybe the slurping is a signal to for subpoena defying strong. We thought that that was the singing telegram scene, where she shows that says, she's the singing telegram gets shot like yeah. That's basically how the subpoena process has been rolling out throughout the House Judiciary committee meeting, or you're just blown away on site. Here's now she just knocks debt. I am seeking server shot. The news. Exactly. But what's amazing is when you look at the political climate of clue. So what you have in the very opening scenes, when the Butler Wadsworth played by the genius Tim curry checks it on the cook. The cook is sharpening her knives. And you see in the box television set in the background the McCarthy hearings, you see Senator Joe McCarthy. Right. And that ties it so perfectly today, because we have basically Joe McCarthy in the White House with attacking everybody and trying to purge and carry out the actual witch-hunt, which is Trump, of course, and then worry Cohn was McCarthy, Joe McCarthy lawyer, the worst son of a bitch in American history, where I Cohn, who was a mob boss, who intimidated people left and right. And trump. When? When he felt like he was being let down and people weren't carrying out. His dirty work of obstructing Justice. He was a where's my worry cone? Yeah, good catch on that, too. And I think that the interesting parallel here is that we're kind of in an opposite situation back then they had they were super paranoid about Russia. And now we aren't paranoid enough did y'all. See, when Giuliani gave it statement to the Daily Beast about the potential investigation into him and his ties to Ukraine. He referenced Joe McCarthy saying that it's a McCarthyism era again. And it's so ironic because Trump's looking for ROY Cohn and his attorney and Giuliani is is attorney. And it's like do you guys not coordinate before you give statements? They say as almost a little Inge oak, and we were discussing this with the guest yesterday about ROY Cohn, who is this homophobic gay, man. He was an anti-semitic Jewish man. He was basically someone who always wanted to, to appear as the opposite of what he was. And so I kind of looked at him. I'm like, so. He was an anti-soviet. What exactly like so my question, of course, is was communism. Just a red herring. That's what I want to know from you guys. Oh, are you talking about today or back, then that, then I mean, we're kind of reevaluating the collapse of the Soviet Union and kind of the opportunities them that emerged for various parties during the late eighties early nineties, which of course was when Trump was coming up. I love that. You guys use that line on your show, because so much of this giant crime crisis has been guys with ideology, and that's not to say that ideology is not real or doesn't matter. But, you know, a lot of this is about greed. A lot of this is just abou- raw transactional, 'isms. So I don't know exactly what are our red herring is today, but I kind of wonder about ROY Cohn, like was he really such a staunch anti-communist or was that just to get into the crying world? Yes, absolutely communism. Was a red herring. It was about capitalism. I think that was like to me. That's one of the entire points of the movie it was about war profiteering and top secret fusion bomb and selling secrets, and making money and being greedy, off of this fear of the communist regime, which is kind of similar to maybe I don't know the fear of the crisis at the border, that Trump is trying to make money off of. Absolutely. I mean, that is the central node that brings all of these mysterious dinner guests together is they're all glenk mail. They're all blackmail, because they're all deeply corrupt, and they're all linked to each other in some way, as they're all linked to the government. The military to atomic technology to all these different facets that I really didn't pick up on our screen. When I when I rented, this take one video down the block, but yeah, a new world now. And what's really interesting is the scene where they I think it's the study, we're is it, we're Mr. body gets shy and miss peacock starts crying because she drink some of the cognac what room that's the study. And he doesn't get shot the bullet, just grazes ear. But whoever had the gun tried to shoot him. I think he was he was playing dead. Right. Because he realized his plan was foiled. He he wanted to get everybody there, you know, to sort of undo his what, what do you call it a little syndicate of accomplices, but when he realized that they were going to kill him and not the Butler, he played dead. So what's interesting is in this study were all of these unpatriotic people as accused of being in the film. There's a big. Oil painting of George Washington founding father, George Washington, which I think is really interesting contrast to sort of, I don't think George Washington really envisioned being include movie of the board game. No. I did he hated Washington itself. I mean, he didn't want to be president, so he didn't have anything to do with those sort of shady type dinner guests would eventually flood the swamp of DC. I do love that argument because because Wadsworth is like you are all totally unamerican. That's what you all have in common. And somebody says, and I can't remember who it is. But says we were making money off of, of greed that what could be more American than that says that, right? Yeah. Which is honestly, like it is a kind of a part of America to me. I think the idea of like America's always been link or used to be a better place. Or it's like we were still in progress. Like it actually used to be way worse. I think in like there's things that happen that I guess they're repetitious but I feel like that. The idea of America to me, at least the pursuit of like making a better, right? Like that. Whole pursuit of happiness thing, it's like we started off pretty shitty for people like me, absolutely. But just a concept that you're on American because you're working with the Russians that makes you actually more American. Hey gasoline nation, you've been listening to our tribute to the movie clue and we know what you're thinking. How do I get the hot look of miss scarlet miss white and MRs peacock on my own? Well, we think these three stylish blackmail victims enjoyed third love, a great company that makes it easy to shop for bras, and our modern McCarthy, Sarah using third, those online fit finder quiz. You can order your bras and try them on at home. They're the you stated points generated by millions of women who've taken their fit finder quiz designed bras, for a perfect fit and premium feel over twelve million women have taken the quiz today. Third love offers one hundred percent fit guarantee and seventy eight sizes every customer is sixty days to where it wash it and put it to the test. 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They were in fact in a clue the movie. So, you know, the answers were there. They were there, all along. I'm always saying it was in the public domain. I do love the line where we find out that professor Plum was once a shrink who treated patients suffering from delusions of grandeur, and he says, yeah, but now I work for the UN and Tim curry goes. Oh, so your work hasn't changed. Exactly. Exactly. And I love how they take a bunch of shots at the hypocrisy of the UN, which is so perfect. So let's go through the cast of characters and who's who because I that's what we've been obsessively doing all morning. There are the real turn of endings, which may complicate things. So I wanted to start with the first ending's you have to determine who's who based on the ending. Right. Because because that really defines the character, so the first ending and turn this off. Now, if you haven't seen close early matter, it's just if you haven't seen clear lost already. Everybody alerts for nineteen eighty nine hundred eighty five movies three endings. I think we're okay you guys. So the first ending it. Turns out Yvette the super sexy French made with her Bubis hanging out is a mass murderer that she's just going around killing everybody, and she's doing it with miss scarlet to create confusion in some cases to create confusion, so Sarah. Okay. Well, you vets, the Kremlin, maybe Maria boots. Yeah. Yeah, we went back and forth. I think she's the perfect package of the Kremlin, because you have the Honey trap element, which the Kremlin legs to use. Anna Chapman, that goes far back. And then you have the fact that she's posing as this French-made. But at one point, you hear her real accent when she's talking to someone. She thinks she knows. And it's not a Frenchaccent. So that's like the Kremlin Botts posing as like Christian moms, and Ohio that wearing maga- hats deep. Andrea. Miss scarlet strangles her because miss scarlet had her do the other murders to create confusion like you said, but they're really the mastermind was miss Carla. And then she often vet for that. She could get away with what does that make her look out mogul, which only gosh that interest McClay? Yeah. I think I think definitely does obviously all of the sex and child trafficking that the Russian mafia does for these all parties. We went into that Cole conversation with Craig Unger who wrote the book on Trump and his rush, mafia ties. But I think also miss. Carla could be Roger sto. Yeah. Because there's no shame, because she doesn't mind everyone knowing that she's blackmailed because there's just nothing to hide. There's no consequences that she's going to miss Scarlett, had a Instagram account should be using it to threaten the judges coming after strew. I don't know man. She seemed like she had it pretty altogether there. And she also knew the one plus one plus two plus I don't think Roger stone could put that together. Plus, she's a way better dresser. That's true. I was actually going to that is a valid valid point. She's like, like professor Plum situation. Going on with Roger stone. But interest, yes. Clambered like I'm. Dude, that this sort of like a hyper dandy. I'm the hipster of this crime. Got any keeps trying to hit on miss scarlet aka mogul vich and, and like, nah, dude, your small beans. Get outta my face. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Like that, I liked okay? Miss Scarlett is the head of the Russian mafia. We had Colonel Sanders. We decided was Colonel. We. Mustard. Colonel drink is Michael, because he is a self identified were profiteer idiot, and he's an idiot, and he has a moustache. Flynn flynn. He's totally flip. All right. He's a big dumb dumb, bumbling idiot, working with the Russians not realizing it's probably against the law. But totally knowing it, and then, having to kill people in one of the other alternate endings to covers tracks and miss peacock, who is this peacock? She's the one from the Nixon era that blab all the time, do you know who I'm talking about from water. Yes, she was she was the one who was locked in a room and her husband wouldn't let her out. Hockey. But I forgot her name. Yes. Oh, shit, whose wife was that it was the wife of somebody who ultimately asked find the attorney general, maybe or Heidel hydros and all the president's men, right? Yeah. Get the other movie bagman a little too, right? Yeah. She was in bag man. She was in slow-burn. I mean, she was in the Nixon Watergate. Was the first episode of slogan. I think is like titled about her. Holy she when I first heard about her. I'm like that sounds just like MRs peacock wife of somebody important in the administration. Talker in charge of all, the social events just absolutely ridiculous for her life, her employment. Yeah. So was miss PICO. I forget did she take the I drink because I remember she did. Right. She's like a drinker. So is this person we're talking about two. Yeah. Exactly. I don't know who I would who that would be here in this administration, but I was trying to out of she's that in Malaya's and say shit. That's a good point. Who would who is that person for us who was the drunk blabbermouth? It's pop it up. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That works. Unfortunately, that's true. We don't have to adhere to gender here. He seems like the type who would scream hysterically in a corner after sipping cognac. Right, also. Yeah. That works or what about Kellyanne Conway's has been George. Oh, yeah. Mrs peacock as MRs peacock, Mississippi, this peacock of it has to be because her husband have MS back in the fifties avenue, volved yet. Senator's wife, right? Yeah. I also get a little bit of a little bit of Sarah Sanders in her to like she tells a little, she tells just enough of what she shouldn't say, probably to like out in rage, you. And then she shuts her mouth and doesn't do doesn't do the right thing. That's true or Sean Spicer. We're him to just got a council secretary kinda by. I mean like he's more like Mr. green just I don't know why a klutz I don't know who Mr. Greenwood be at the end we were all like God. It would be so nice if it happened that way, you know, if there was that race sort of the hero, he's kind of the molar in the whole, and I know Muller's hero, but maybe like a or trying to be a hero. Like a Komi kind of a guy, he's like the molar we're looking for the Janata show. We need a new alternative ending to our actual political crisis. Mr. green comes bursting through because we were watching all of the scenes towards the end when all the character SCO from room to room, and they just see all these bodies piling up. And they're saying things like wow like this is looking serious. And it just reminded us so much of like the Muller investigation, or the Democrats investigation being like we need all the facts, we need more evidence. And it's like, oh my God people, you're literally surrounded with dead bodies like how much more evidence, do you need? So that was my take on a that little scenario yet. I love when it's a the sixth person dead. I think, and Tim Gray's like six bodies things are getting serious. That's Nancy Pelosi getting backs here perhaps we. Mr. green represents the entirety of the FBI. Oh, interesting. Mr. green is the entire case because the FBI is called J Edgar Hoover at the house. Yes. Yeah. I love the line where he's like he's on J. Edgar Hoover on your phone. He's like he's on everyone else's phone. Why can't he be on mine? It's amazing, this movie got made a child. I watched it for like the sheer slapstick goofiness, and because it was based on a board game that I played at, like, you know, eighty percent of this when over my head, and it's so interesting to me that they made such a pointed political commentary throughout this whole thing with all these little details about, like the WHO, and the UN, atomic energy and all the stuff. It's totally weird. I can't picture this being made now. Unfortunately and brothels and yeah. Came out in ninety eighty five which was, of course, Reagan, and which gave us the Iran contra scandal, and then you had Wall Street greed, and the whole Gordon gecko era all of it. So I mean it is a film ultimately about corruption and all these bad actors. So I think it's really internet came out, like in that environment of coq doubt gunslinging use gonna hear very cone. He a little cone tributing. Yes. Yeah. I felt like so I went into this movie entirely blind. I know that's an egregious offense ever watched in my life. Never saw. I never saw. No never saw a fresh. I was really surprised. I had no idea that it was even political at all. And so that was like I was like, oh, I wonder why they're picking this movie. That's how ignorant I was of this movie. So it was just incredible. But I did think that I wonder a little bit of the lines while they're incredibly accurate there on the nose. You know, like the criticisms that they're saying, yeah. And back then, when it came out was it that on the nose sounding or no. Have we just finally maybe started to hear decades worth of outward criticism of our government that it seems on the nose to me now, I think we're seeing it through new Lenz, because the first time I saw it when I was in first grade. I know that my reaction to MRs Peacock's husband being paid consultant for the government was not. Did he register for Fara, which is? It is interesting, though. I don't know how much people picked up on it. I think everyone expected the government to be corrupted this time this post Nixon poster Vietnam. This is right before around contracts, the most of the Reagan era. I think we just didn't expect a hostile takeover from within abetted by multiple foreign actors in concert with disloyal Americans. And that's what makes this like goofy comedy game movie like resonate so hard because they actually do kind of touch on all of this, duplicitous behavior, and the paranoia, and the black male and the threats and all that stuff that people like to just say his nonsensical conspiracy, and they can no longer ignore. The guys back then was definitely different and nine hundred eighty five we had the miracle on ice just had happened. We had rocky four that came out. We were still very afraid of all out nuclear war. We were running drills hiding under our. Desks for when the bomb would drop from Russia, and we were just trying to break through and, you know, Gorbachev tear down the wall. And so all these things were happening where we, we I think back, then we didn't have the picture of our corrupt government that we do now. So, yeah, I think when you're talking about things being too on the nose back, then it would have been more shocking, that is today. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, that's cool. I mean it's great like I said, everything they're saying Superdome point, and a lot of it is very detailed in, in, like you said, talking about WHO, and making these references that I do not see jokes go that specific even in movies nowadays. They, they won't touch specifics like that. Yeah. I was really impressed with how much they did from board games. I played clue, but it was also my first time watching it, too, 'cause we're nineties babies. And so, yeah, I grew up on the board game and seeing them fill all the details and makes a political statement with just the foundation of a board game. That was so impressive. Great writing. I don't think. Couldn't make this movie today. That's what I love about it so much. I pointed out to Sarah, it's probably only movie in existence. I think that reenact seen tire film, again, within the film, and on top of that. Yeah. And then on top of that has three alternative. Endings. Could you imagine any studio today saying? We're going to let you make that film. No. Yeah. And I want you guys to know since you never had the opportunity to see it in the theater when it came out, you didn't get to see all three endings. They played one of the three endings was a toss out tending theater way back money again. And they wouldn't tell you what ending it was. Or if it was ending one ending to running three you had no idea, you might get the same ending again. Or you might get a different one. How cool is that? Yeah. How many times did you see any theater five times in the theater, and I only caught two endings? We love you h even more. Here. That's cool. But yeah, it makes sense because it's a board game. Right. You play get all these different endings. That's that's how they that's really great marketing and interactive great anyway, I wanted to say, gosh, eighty five oh yes. So AG how you spell out that time, the sort of cataclysmic energy of that of nine hundred ninety five with nuclear drills in classrooms, and the threat of nuclear war and things were escalating with the Soviets, and that's why the miracle on ice was such a cathartic event for our country and so forth. Well, you have that sort of feeling of Armageddon captured inclu with the undercover FBI agent, showing up to the door pretending to be this Armageddon. Beatnik saying the kingdom of the kingdom is upon us repent. And so we were just saying just whistling Dixie. Yes, we're saying, how that is very much like today was Armageddon climate that we're in. But nobody's feeling it. I don't think it's a national feeling like it was in one thousand nine hundred five depends where you are in Missouri. It feels like it just as the weather's, like downright biblical. We're literally surrounded by floods. We just lost our reproductive rights like there's, you know, gun violence everywhere, with Russia. I just met with Russia's oh with Russia. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. That's that's interesting. You know, for the first time in my life because I was a kid when the Cold War ended, I didn't do those under the desk, drills or anything like that. So I never had that overwhelming feeling of nuclear apocalypse coming into Trump was elected in this entire time where we've been looking at, like the threat of nuclear warfare people worrying about Kim Jong Woon? I'm most concerned about Trump. I'm worried about Trump dropping nuclear bomb, not necessarily like on us in America. But somewhere else leading to retaliatory act like how you have to say. -sarily on us. It is possible. That's the thing. I mean, if he wanted to just knock out Chicago or seeing Louis, or one of these other the N and letting or a targeted new CNN. I mean, unfortunately, this is all within the realm of plausibility in Trump's mind because he has unilateral control of the button. It's frightening. And then you look at who surrounding him like, oh, who's gonna team John Bolton? Good luck with that. Got Colonel mustard pulling the trigger. It's, it's not a not a good scene or no. That was that was when we decided he was Flynn Wadsworth the Butler. That's the center of all this depends on which ending. Right. So the first one he catches miss scarlet miss Carla. She's about to get away with it, and it turns out that Wadsworth is himself in the first ending FBI agent undercover. So I guess Wadsworth and the first ending is who we all wanted to be, who we all wanted molar. Maybe maybe McCabe. Oh, interesting. I take any of them at this point, if they actually do the right thing, take McCabe. I actually think McCabe, actually did the right thing will you interviewed him. So and you had his book, we haven't read the excerpt in the of that I did the right thing on the job in terms of trying to take down and study the Russian mafia, and he shouldn't have been fired for it. You should still be there. And it was obviously he was the target of a purge. I just wish our question. The one we're always asking on this show is like why did people not act in time, you know how if this well informed on this immense threat that we're facing, how could they have let someone like Trump or Manafort get so close? And then ultimately get access to classified information that jeopardizes our national security. Them's the rules, and then also, I mean you know, he did open the counterintelligence investigation on time. He did it in a correct way. So as to make sure that there's a paper trail about how it. Shutdown, if it was shut down. I think we'll find that out when we start getting the counterintelligence information from bar with the contempt threat vote coming up June eleventh this week. So we'll we'll see. But he did. I think he did open the investigation on time. He did everything he could he was removed and gagged. And there was really nothing much else. He could do about it. Yeah. He also got he got Rosenstein to appoint molar in the first place, that's like a big thing in his book that he talks about. It's in a in a surprisingly non self aggrandizing way considering what the ultimate point is, which is that I basically got molar appointed get. Yeah. So there's there's that that counts for something. How does he handle Komi? Like, what's the whole deal with Komi? How does McCabe sort of dance around I asked him? He because he said, when when I met him, he said, if there's one thing you could know what would it be in the first thing, I asked was, was was your office was Komi blackmailed by the New York field office FBI field office, Giuliani prints? It cetera to reopen the Hilary Clinton Email investigation by threatening to leak the Weiner, laptop ahead of the FBI. And I said, basically, as Comi are homey, because that's what we were kind of questioning him. And he just got a look on his face. Like. So he wouldn't. He wouldn't expect couldn't obviously, tell me what exactly went down with that because it's still under investigation. But. I don't think that he agrees necessarily with what Komi did, and the way handled things Oconee is the worst, anybody who would write the book that heated, which is all about history. Please be kind to me. I did what I could under extreme circumstances. Meanwhile, Komi has a press release, for Hillary Clinton's emails refuses to join in a letter coming out publicly to inform the public of Russia's attack on our election ignored Harry Reid ignored multiple, please from Harry Reid. Please tell the public, please tell everyone what, you know, comas the absolute worst. I like McKay more now that I know he said that. Exhibit. Then obviously, none of them are going to say anything negative about any intelligence agency, or the FBI or the department of Justice or anything. They're you know, they're just not going to. Yeah. The book is really interesting. The book is very interesting, especially when he talks about his origins into taking investigating the Russian mafia and everything. So if you haven't read it, it's a really quick and easy read to read the part in the Atlantic. Like, I know I know we're here having this, like goofy conversation about clue, but since we're on this topic I love to know your opinion on molar and his recent actions in the press conference because we're talking about McCabe, and Komi and all of these figures in the FBI who were purged in a slow motion, Saturday night massacre, who will likely be the target of show trials, potentially imprisonment, you know, in Trump's fantasy world execution. That's all very frightening stuff. And I'm surprised that Moeller kind of isn't coming out swinging because as you noted. Mccabe. Izza institutionalists. They file a protocol they follow the rules, you know, the FBI as an institution is in great jeopardy. And I would think that Muller seeing all of his former colleagues in members of that institution targeted in this way, would want at the very least to protect them as well as protect the national security of the United States. Like what do you make of his kind of reluctant to speak out? I have to believe that his reluctance to speak out is actually, the best course of action for maintaining faith, at least what little bit. We have if any in those institutions otherwise, he wouldn't be doing it. I think that's his number one goal is to maintain the public's faith in the independence of the department of Justice or at least the FBI. And so I don't know why he can't or isn't coming out, swinging other than just knowing him as an extremely conservative person. The even though he's a total angry democrat whatever. Just had a very, very narrow thing to look at. He looked at it. He handed everything else off, we've now got a whole counterintelligence investigation that he didn't do he didn't look into whether the actual vote count was hacked. He left that to other people in the FBI, he handed everything off because he said, I'm looking at whether or not there is hard evidence that Trump and his campaign or his associates had a conspiracy conspired to hack the DNC d triple c and set up the internet research agency. That's all I'm looking at. Here's my tiny little piece of pizza. And I'm handing off forty other giant pizzas to everybody else. Yeah, decentralized it which is a good way of protecting it as well. I mean, it's practical course because these are sweeping crimes, and very sophisticated crimes. And also it does. Spread out the targets right for any of these investigators to be harassed as they as they were on Muller's team with Peter Struck. Lisa page, Bruce or becoming household names because the president United States was harassing them for all the world to see largely from his Twitter account, and so forth. Those three names, Lisa page, Bruce, Peter shock, where superheroes in fighting organized crime, namely Russian, mafia. So that's really interesting that the president took such a deeply personal interest in that struck took down the entire Anna Chapman ring. They made a show out of it called the Americans. What is think of that show since we're talking about pub culture stuff? Get back and talk about the taco wrestler, we're gonna little hiatus and go to go, visit the Americans for a second because I got some of that in November twenty sixteen. My sister Sarah, and I were talking to everybody could imagine and digging into what was in the public domain, and we basically got downloaded into our brains the crime of the century. We saw Cambridge politica. Jared Kushner's roll all of it, like, we had one expert, a member of the community that we just happened upon through all our digging say that the election, Donald Trump essentially marriage between the Russia mafia and the east and the Russian mafia and the west and as part of that we knew that for this to go on. They needed Americans. They needed a network of Americans to aid them in order to attack our election. And so I put on Twitter, the Americans is real or something I like this show the Americans Israel and an RT. Contributor, took that and, and wrote how I was absolutely crazy. Right. So I just wanted to share that and then he deleted the post because all these other news reports have come out saying, these Americans came along and the NRA was involved in all of it. I've been deleted though, because typically they'll just our teachers runs with whatever propaganda. They're gonna well he was a contributor, he was somebody that had appeared on the show wrote for them, or whatever, I think, put it on his personal blog, and then it was like oops. He cares a little bit about his journalistic integrity. I know some folks think that Muller didn't do much, but he backs you up on this. His whole part of volume. One of his report is how several Russians came to America. They used Pineyro who's been indicted an American to give them fake ID's, and they came here and posed as Trump supporters and had rallies. And did you know infiltrated our election systems that way? So that's how to have been, I know that, you know, we're, we're kind of back and forth about if Muller's hero or if he's kind of a low level figure in this whole thing. But, you know, he vindicated you on that point without question, and just to clarify think, with our whole criticism of the FBI and molar, and McCabe and so forth. It's rather a position of guys. This was in the public domain for decades. Why didn't you do anything sooner to stop it? It's more of a position of a little too late. And a lot of that. Little too late action by the FBI has actually made them targets of, of the Trump and far right? And Kremlin propaganda machine because that propaganda has really tied the FBI's sort of aggressive late night, cramming session before a big test actions to try to sort of investigate and expose all these deep Kremlin ties, and how far they go with Trump's camp to crossfire hurricane the investigation launched by the FBI in late July twenty sixteen. And if you talked to any Russia gate, skeptics, the famous ones as I have I found myself after the March for truth, and your city we did like a big emergency rally following bars cover up and we did like all hands on deck. Everyone's show up to this big demonstration, and I spoke there and after the March got, like tag teamed by famous Russia gate skeptics on Twitter. And we did a leisurely stroll through the park, we had an adult conversation and. And everyone try to hear each other. I was actually quite beautiful. And when thing that was really interesting was that they were really pegging this whole Russia gay crime, something that just sort of sprung up with crossfire hurricane and their belief. Is that the F B I launched crossfire hurricane to try to stop Donald Trump, because he will bash institutions and the. F. B. I R institutionalists. So what I'm saying is because the FBI finally sort of acted in a in a big aggressive sort of way, as required a bit late in the game that made them open to labeling of having a political motive because so closely election, and that's what's been exploited by this propaganda, tack against them, and what the Russia gate skeptics don't understand is is that there's history here decades decades history. So, you know, we know that Moeller has done such a service to validating a lot that Sarah by self. And others have pointed out very early on. And we know that Peter Struck and Lisa page resort have have been under great threat in the work they've done for for years, and they've been they've been great heroes for our country. Our point is always guys knew about all of this, so far in advance. So why did you let it get so close while you have to remember that quote unquote late in the game as the way the FBI operates they have to have articulate facts in a row in a line, and the, you know, especially if it's going to the president of the United States, you know, you have to have you just have to wait until you've got more than enough to, to justify opening crossfire hurricane. You just have to know of course. But what we're saying is, he should have never been president states to begin with because of all of his corruption and connections, deeply embedded with Russian, mafia. Trump Felix, cedar, for example, who Mckee was examining like they all knew these dudes, and she not be giving classified Intel, like just not a good. Idea. You know, the book people need to read in US should have on your show. If you haven't already is Vanity Fair contributor, Unger wrote house of Trump, how's Putin? It's the historical background of the Mola report. Okay. So back to clue. All right. So who are we go down the characters though? So who is MRs white who kills all her husband's? We need. Mrs wait. Honestly. Of like, she's the most sympathetic character, their skin. It's true. I think she's our closest bet there who do you think? AG anything. Yeah, I figured Kellyanne, but only strictly because of the inherent conflict that comes with her marriage. Maybe maybe casick you know, like just somebody who's like let me do it. I'm I'm jealous and then just get shut down. And so he didn't end up killing anybody. It would've been cool if he did. But who casick? Yeah. The guy who tried to run for president from Ohio against Trump. Oh, my one of the sixteen. Yeah. We mock. Now what we what do we have twenty eight we do? Yeah. Yeah, I know really. I remember when we used to be able to mock that with integrity, our. My party. The democratic field is just one big dinner party. Yeah. But I do have to say I mean, I think that the reason that the democratic field is. So big as everyone's like. Well, if he can be president. I can be president. Yeah. The bars just low now. But there's a lot of great qualified people that do believe they had, like, I guess imposter syndrome before. They were like, oh no. I couldn't. Imposter singer. Imposter syndrome died, November twenty sixteen. My confidence shot straight up. I was like, so MRs white interesting ideas, they're really missing professor Plum goes, professor Plum said was Roger stone. Sleazy wants to swinging when he actually people. And he's, he's the hipster tried owns that he would carry a pipe around. But yeah, and oh I think I'm sure there's there's those photos of him. And then we have. No, we're not. We're not of the goes Jan mine. Occurs lets us Miller she wrote what else which which characters. Fifteen more characters the departing, there's always six main ones. And then we've got Wadsworth and body. Right. And then mustered Plum peacock green scarlet and. Cop the cop was like, hey, everybody. There's terrible things happening here. And everyone kind of ignores him. That's probably us. That's like our to show. Podcast. Corpses. And there's a motorist who used to be the driver for Mr Flynn Colonel mustard. In his war profiteers as so who who's, who's close to Flynn that kind of knows what he was up to, but is a buddy of his and supports him, not gates anymore. But maybe back in the day. Right. That's more Manafort. Oh, just Flynn even have any friends, maybe. The motorist is Turkey Turkish government. That's it beard. Trying to get Flynn to kidnap. He's he's, he's a key in his other operative for Kayla's research, or whatever the hell it was called. Okay. So what about Wadsworth when it's all his fault when he's behind everything I would say that, that's when he's manna for. He's the guy that seems respectable one really can peg him or see him clearly for what he is. He is masterminding the whole show and his bag of tricks that are creating this whole body cow and all this confusion and chaos. And it turns out that he was behind the whole thing, and that he's the criminal and he thinks he's going to get away with it because he's so era that, and then he gets shut down by this by Mr. Green's. I think in that scenario he's Manafort, totally Manafort for. Yeah. The way you laid it out. It was perfect. I agree. I concur. And he was the one about the line. That was like, did none of you to do so that everyone else's involved, too. That was him. Right. Because that was one of my favorite moments of that. That's what really did remind me of this administration because it feels like all of these kind of things we grew up making were noxious, but innocuous, like the National Enquirer or something like that. They're all folded into this massive conspiracy. It's just feels like history vomiting itself back up at us, and that line that line. Unfortunately, embodies our time. Yeah. And that's third ending is really probably my favorite one because they're all responsible for deposing of their own, you know. Accomplices, or the people who were informing on Plum, killed Mr. body. Right. He was the one missing in the kitchen peacock killed the cook. Because she was informing on her. It was her cook, and that she made that fatal mistake at dinner, when she said it was her favorite dish. But mum brains while popular in Cantonese cuisine or not often found in Washington DC, and then Colonel mustard killed them motorist which was his driver, MRs white killed a vet 'cause she was stripping her husband one of them, and then she had an affair, and then that's the flames on the side of the face why she killed her and Scarlett killed the cop who she'd been bribing in DC to keep it quiet that she was running a brothel and then Wadsworth shot the singing telegram. Reveals he's Mr. body. And then thanks to Mulford deposing his network of spies. Right. Yeah. And that's just the best ending the last line though, bugs me. Didn't bug me, a nine hundred eighty five but bugs me today, I'm gonna go home and sleep with my wife line where the FBI agent who's been posing as a homosexual and the reason and one thing I didn't get, as why being a homosexual was a national security issue. But maybe in the fifties it was. But at the end when he says, I'm going to go home and sleep with my wife. I was just like oh, I'm not gay everyone. I'm a hero. But I have to say when I watched beloved movies from way back in the day. I'm always trying to take count, the how many horrible things it turns out that we're in that film. And I'm always into. I watched clue for that. And that's I think pretty much. That's one of the few guys moments in that movie, just to have to gloat, that you're not gay just got me. You know, like, oh, man. Yeah, it's kind of a bummer to me. I didn't know that the three different. Endings were showed an isolation in the movie. Theaters. Because I got such a huge effect watching one one-two-three three where it's like the first one everyone's going to jail that kill someone in the second one everyone's going to go to jail that kill someone presumably, and then the third one there's such a quick resolution when the FBI is part of the people that are like contributing to people dying and it's just like, okay there we go. That's it. That's our job. And there's zero questions asked and it's like when the government is killing people basically than it's completely over. Yeah, yeah. And that's here. See. It was like a one two three punch sort of watching it back to back. Yeah. The virgin. Yeah. The version that I watched, which I think is version probably available now. Is it shows all three of them to watch a little clip? So I missed kill someone right shoot and kill someone at the end the ending saying, yeah, exactly so that so they, they just get to kill him. Once your questions as your repercussions because that's just what the government does, and then he's like, oh, we're gonna go sleep with my wife at the end of it. I will say though it was a self defense shooting because Wadsworth was about to kill him. Yeah. The Wadsworth was pulling a gun on him. So he shot Wadsworth. Otherwise. They would have taken him into custody two, white privilege, male. Yes. True. True. Yeah. I guess that's just how it affected me. Even if it wasn't self defense goes, who's to say, I mean doesn't America always say that are killings aren't self defense when a lot of times, they're not. They feared for their lives. But I know in that case, he literally had someone shooting again, that's fair. But it is tricky. But that's how he did. Kill the singing telegram, girl last ending. Totally wadsworth. Yes, yes, I'm not saying he didn't deserve today. I'm just saying, well, maybe I am saying that's also very big statement. But I, I'm just saying simply the reaction, the initial reaction in the seconds after someone it had been revealed that someone was murdered by another person because it's the American government zero questions are asked, and they get to go home and sleep with their wife and all I just killed someone in. I'm gonna fuck fuck. Yeah, exactly. Let me just let me just say, how amazing ending have been if he said, I'm going to go home and sleep with my husband about is back if they do a remake. I hope they do it. Yes. Only thing they're allowed to remake you. That would be the only all past all POC. Because I think miss scarlet. It was the murderer in the first won. Miss peacock was the murderer and the second one. And then in third one, they all murdered their own accomplices, or they're all murdered everyone, who was give getting blackmail all except for the singing, telegram, girl, who was shot by Mr. body, which was Wadsworth and then the FBI comes in they caught Wadsworth. And he's like, well worked out. He goes to draw gun, the FBI agent shoots him could Corinne entering good dies on the floor. The whole FBI comes in arrests, the rest of them and takes them the fuck home. Yeah. Yeah. To jail not home. I dig it. I did the whole experience of multiple endings. Yeah. That was different time. I did. I had no idea that, that was the thing. That's what I want. Now in reality, I want to go into the alternate ending. Sure, and Bannon and all these other people that we, we were hoping we go down you leaders have been following this crime spree so closely for so long and you have it all documented you're like the librarians of the Kremlin attack. So I know you have like your whole glossaries and all of it all squared away, and what is your alternative ending to how the molar port went down, or just where we would be right now at this moment, I think, we're still in it, it hasn't ended yet because while Muller was the tip of the iceberg, we've got the intelligence information that's gonna come out. That's what determines whether or not any of these people are Russian assets or compromised by a foreign agency. And then, of course Russia is only one sixth of the quote unquote grand bargain. That was made with Trump between Egypt Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Russia, to get Iran out of the way. And try to make cutter look like Dicks until they lend a bunch of money to Kushner. So there's a giant giant, huge global conspiracy, and I think that it's just gonna take a long time to unwind. It Muller is tip tiny tip of one piece of one country of part of the part of a giant conspiracy. I, I will say, though as far as like fantasy alternative endings go. I was kinda hoping that people would like not riot like hardcore in the streets, but like just a little upset like when Muller came out for that press conference, I was like I knew I should have been prepared more for what he was going to actually say. But I was really just fantasizing that he'd be like more direct and that people would be like finally waking up to it, but that's happened, so many times in this whole scheme of things. You're right. This is just what it is. And it's going to be slow, but I do fantasize about people just snapping and just I mean it's not likely I think people snapped inside. They just don't know what to do, because there's constant ambiguity, like I mean, because that's real life. Like, we, we do have villains of this situation. But most of the time, people aren't heroes, or villains there, people who make decisions and the confines of their environment. People who make decisions that are bad, that might otherwise be good people or vice versa. I think that, that lens the sort of this inertia also feels like chaos, and that's why I keep pounding this drum. That's why I really wish we had these impeachment hearings, because what we need is like a clue style cinematic production to kind of bring all this home to the masses. Like in the end, you know in Wadsworth goes through, and he explained who did, what with what weapon and why like we need a Wadsworth. We need somebody to come out and just like watch this down. I think another great alternate ending would have been Muller for the good of the country, and for what he feels is actual Justice would have gone ahead and not paid attention to the constitutionality of the. Memo and indicted Trump on eleven counts of obstruction of Justice. I want Muller to do like a Wadsworth thing and run all over that stage that he came out a couple of weeks ago at that press conference and be like, you know, and then Flint this, and then this, and then just get all riled or short. Yeah. Unfortunately, unfortunately, we live in this ending and miss the alternative. And there's a moment in clue where near the end, whether the lights had gone out or just some big, chaotic moment had happened. And when the lights go back on they walk around room by room and count the new body count. They discover all these new dead bodies that diet and murdered in a span of just a few minutes, and they're so fatigued. They're like, that's what Jerry Nadler looks like that of the judiciary committee has to open up, impeach me inquiries. I mean, when you see all the reports are saying that he's he and a group of Democrats, I think it's up to like a nearly sixty now on the democratic house side, that really want impeachment open up an impeachment inquiry at the very least and cherry. Now, there is one of them that's been like obviously publicly has to keep a United front with Pelosi employers. Keeping all of everybody in line or that fatigue, could represent just the American people just like as the bodies key piling up. Everyone's like, yeah, other thing, but Jordan, what was your alternate ending? Oh, yeah. Mild, turn it ending. I guess would be that there's some sort of rogue actor from the intelligence community that can come out, and like you said, just give us a statement that we wish molar could have given us rides Molucca hands clean, but, like it's some rogue guy. Yes. Or, or even if Muller went rogue himself, but unfortunately, I think I know that in reality that's incompatible for FBI or a intelligence community member to on McCabe gas. Yeah. The ultimate Rando. Yes. And I wish there was like an alternate reality in space time in which we could accept a rogue actor from the intelligence community, and have it not de-legitimize institution. But unfortunately, that's times that's what would happen. And that's how the American people would take that even though that's what we need right now. The other question is how much more. You need to de-legitimize the department of Justice than it is right now. It's like when people make the impeachment argument. Oh, you're going to divide the country. What motherfucker we gonna divide the country? Yeah. Absolutely. So now you're worried about, you know, protecting the reservoir of trust built up by the department of Justice and respecting their independence that's shot to shit. So just fucking come out guns blazing. I agree. But it's not entirely shot to shit right now. And I think a future in which it is entirely shot to shit is kind of freaky thought experiment. That I'm not. So sure we to live in. Yeah. Yeah. At some point, we're going to have to and then you might get your riots. Oh, yeah. I might get those rights. I don't want them, but like riots. But more of an uprising. Yeah. We need it like, I literally don't want a civil war. I don't want anything like that. But I feel like when it comes to fighting for our rights at some point, it's gonna get re really literal. And I'm I mean it's happening in the streets like every day in different cities and stuff. We just don't see on a National Front yet for the people that. Are paying attention. I'm lover. Yeah. But if it came down to like, 'cause we were facing climate change. All these things are going to have tensions, like rising. No matter what happens with this whole investigation, like things are going to get tense regardless. So we might we might solve this whole thing by twenty fifty by just killing ourselves off. What nation one of the things that so alarming, if you think of a rogue actor from the DOJ at this point, what you're thinking of is someone who will tell the unvarnished truth, and who will do out of just principal instead of out of protocol, and it is bad that we're at that point as a country that, that person then becomes, you know, like a I don't know. Say they are in there the opposite of what a treasonous or a bad person would be. But we're in such a row stray, shin that, that's you know, they would become as you say this incredibly controversial figure by so many sides like within the DOJ within the Trump administration within people who are more of an 'institutionalised bent. But I do think it's what we need as well. Yeah. Telling the truth should never be called going rogue. Yeah. That's where we are right now with an Hitler, all about, like this information to like this, man. This is their game. Yeah. My friend gave me this really easy to read book on dictatorship. It's like how how to become a dictator or something who I need that I need a self help guide BuzzFeed article. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's a formula that gets repeated and repeated successfully over and over and over again, only Albright. She talked about this in her book, what was it called fascism? I think very, very blunt, just fascism. Yeah. But no. Really? She talked about. She lived in. Well, yes. Very textbook. In what they're doing to the DOJ's in all these other administrative bodies is very textbook. They purged they pack courts. They packed the supreme court. And then they re write the law. Like that's why time is of the essence. That's why Andrea and I are always like, okay FBI you're about to get like it's coming up. Guys before you got fired a. Midwife. Authoritarianism. Together. But I wanna say a win Trump got elected or whatever stole the election. There was one Middle East watcher expert on the Middle East who said, hey, America. Now, do you understand what we're all of our dictators in the Middle East, to how they came up? The point is, is that it's the guy the becoming a dictator. It's, it's a reliable guide. And I am optimistic. If juice gets her riots mystic that, that we can get out of it. People can riot at the ballot box. People can riot by organizing at the local level and just showing up to marches showing up has such power in it. That itself is such a big ripple effect all of showing up. I think that's the main thing is that we have to remain active and remain vigilant and do what we're doing do what you guys are doing seriously, you guys are doing a great service here. And it's just I think that the number one walkaway lesson here is watched the movie clue. And, and stay active be active do things and it does. Matter. It does make a difference, even if it's just to call it Pelosi and tell her to open an impeachment inquiry. Whatever it is. You can do do it. It's just so important, we can actually literally save the world. Like I'm a change. No really politically weakened. Turn it around just gets darkest before dawn, usually. Yeah, that's true. Gaslight nation is produced by dre Chiluba and Sarah, if you like we do leave a review and I tunes helps us reach more listeners and check out our patriot. It helps keep us going, our editor for this was Carlin Diggle ritual music and gas station is produced by David Whitehead. Martin Vison Berg, Nick far, the Ariaca and Carlin. Diggle are phenomenal logo was designed by the genius. Hey jr. Smith at the New York based design firm porter, thank you so much, Hamish gasoline nation to supporters at the producer level and patriotic Solman hikes, Allen. Lew, David porter page Harrington Adam LeVine Alexandria, lean wiler planet Guzman on reduce shown Jared Lombardo, Jason Bainbridge, Jodie DeWitt. John rip leave K carton. Kelly ranson had been Garnett. Lorraine w tot Tanya Chiluba mother, Terry Brady Zachary lemon and Marshall, Michael Belan, Brandon Caroline friend Pathan Anderson. Carina Cathy Kavanagh Diana Geller deal sing field. Doug bird, Eric Kaplan, or gonna gouriya? He's in man, George Hughes who stuck house beat James Tali, Jason Rita Jim for Slavic. Yawns. Elster rasmusen. John, damn bro. John concerto enough ago. Kevin Christie melon, Crecy Atto recall well for an scrim stranded, Margaret mo- Perez. Matthew Copeland marine. Murphy, Michelle dash Mike trip ago before spirit Rondo, white, rich, so nearby. Donna, Vic, Ted Geary Mitchell. Thomas burns Olsen. Zap aroused, our and Hollis Ramsey. Thank you also much could not make the show without you.

Donald Trump FBI Sarah Muller Russia America president MRs peacock Andrew McCabe professor Plum Trump Flynn Wadsworth Tim curry Twitter Miss Scarlett Mr. green Butler Senator Joe McCarthy Craig Unger
BONUS episode:  "Conversations"

Native Opinion Podcast an American Indian Perspective

1:50:05 hr | 7 months ago

BONUS episode: "Conversations"

"Along. Along. So, this is conversations. You guys. And so easy, it is I guess. Is that easy, absolutely yeah. But again as always the thank you guys for listening when you get this, we We're on vacation. And Dave clicked off again. I'm. Just, I'm still here, okay? And so you know again, guys, thank you for your time in listening to us here on the show and and also you know. Supporting us in all the various different ways that you do, so, we just want you guys to know that we definitely appreciate that so. Absolutely without a DUB, so this'll be a conversations. We'll see volume one. this is this is honestly no, no format whatsoever. Just US talking about. Whatever really comes to mind. We're GONNA. Look at you, know our news feeds and see See what else is out there that You're probably should. Maybe provide some commentary on so. Brother is going to pass the baton to you. YOU WANNA SORTA kick us off here. Sure sure, thank you. I'll just. Jump into a conversation or start a conversation, I should say on what I ended with about. The millions unmasked March our last episode. and parents are. Out there creating. Havoc across many states in this article came from Illinois. and. It, thousands of people from across the state are expected to rally and Springfield opposition to children who ain't mask while in school. I. Again as I mentioned on the episode on Saturday. That's that's just insane to do that here's here's what nobody's thinking about. They're only looking at children in school. They're not thinking about. The children on the way to school. Children are going to be in buses. Where there's no way possible, they can social distance, and there's nobody there to monitor whether they wearing masks, not nobody. Bus driver can't do it. They don't have bus monitors on both most buses. So that. Therein is another example of how absurd. You know. Protest Against Children Ring Mask, just don't send your children to school. Doll send them to school. Well, there's there's a lot of parents that I I believe. Aren't in in in see. I think I. Think the the other. Thing that really disgust me about What what the positioning coming from the trump administration is really the WHO's behind the push to get kids back to school. He's. He's been very transparent about that part of it. and. That is you know that. Children need to go back to school. You go back to school all right. Because what's really behind that is if the children are back in school than the parents can go back to work and all his buddies more money. And make those portfolios get stronger and things that okay I. Exactly that's the only honest behind, but he's fall both folding it. He's holding it as as You know trying to project. A normal country. From you know from last year, let's say right We have these people thinking for a minute that you know that we're not coming to the end of this. And on top of that, the politics get involved in this is this is all the mccrae's father thinking if they can stall, reopen the country they're going to stall it up to the election. Most regret take yetlis thing. It is and this is all about him because they're doing it to to make him look bad. Keep him from winning reelection Yep. That's the most insane comment that he could one of them out if It's not the most insane when it's one of the most insane comedy can make So you know. Every parent has the right to make that choice for themselves and amusing the right in the proper context. Not You know you know my my my my position from from the Saturday episode was. That you know that that either making this into a rights case when when it really doesn't need to be if I need, add clarity to might my earlier statements. It would have been that or it. Is that you know sure? They have the right to not wear masks. Say It straight up. Okay, but should they. meaning. Should they not wear a mask? So, that's why I put it in the frame it in that nobody's taking your rights away. Nobody said. that. You can't that. You have to wear a mask or or that you don't have to wear a mask. Nobody said either way. Most of the states in the country are talking about a voluntary mask order and I only use the context again. We made it mandatory here in Connecticut when the death cases were so high in that the the all the hospitals rat capacity. And that was a result of you know the work that all the all five governors did because we have people coming out of New York into our state and people are getting infected. And then we had higher cases going on in the city of Boston and they were coming back this because Connecticut basically is pin between these two large metropolitan areas, so the governor here said you know what gotTa Make It. Mandatory will try not to do it for very long. It really all depends on on. You know on the rising cases in the in the death rate. And I don't think that was too much to ask as much as I have other problems with the governor here. I don't think that was a bad thing. You know I. It's not a bad thing and and some some Mayors and some governors are now mandating mask. It's no longer a request. It's a mandate. And I think that's great. But To try to drive this point home further. I'm Missouri School district asked parents to sign a cove. Nineteen deaths way refer children. That's what that's what it's. Degraded to. Wanting people to sign a death waiver saying you won't hold us at fault. If your child contracts Cova and dies. That's that's. What kind of insanity is this? What? What has this country degraded to to get us to this point? Money I. Mean You know this? This is why we continuously point back to history? When we talk about the behavior of the United States a country. And some not all, but some of the citizens within it today. I say it is historical in that sense. It is. That some of these families. Are are from. A. Historical their families generation after generation have propagated this type of behavior in this country. Now, people can send hate mail at me if you want whatever you know, but the bottom line is that. You know there's historic. Proof that that can be obtained. That supports that statement. And that's that's true. Because you, you know you think about how people elevate or what their pride What? They're what they're proud of in this country. You'll hear many statements about you know. My family has worked these lands since eighteen something or other. As an as an example, and and so they're proud of that heritage. When you trace that heritage back, and you find out, okay, yeah, you push a bunch of of ancestral people off their lands so that you could be proud of working that land. And making those same arrogant assumptions that native people weren't doing anything with the land I always liked that one, too. And so my point being about when it comes to mask is that this arrogance carries into other things I have the right to do this. You know you think about You know the Bundy assholes. Fighting for supposedly rancher, right? That's where I'm coming from so so it it it it permeates from that and goes into all these other areas and now the latest. You're taking my rights away by making me wear a mask. No not. You want to choose not to wear masks. Understand the risks. That's what we're saying. That's overstating you. Now includes children. That it definitely. So, you know those underdogs that I mentioned earlier. Your children are in the underdog category because they can't fight this for themselves. Indeed. So, like I told the listeners on Saturday I'm going to being a face when it comes to standing for the underdog. And I'M GONNA stand up for the children who don't have a voice. In advocate for them to be as safe as possible because there's no reason on God's Green Earth. That any adult, any adult should be forcing their children to. Go. And be an environment like that. No parent should be doing that but you. People have to understand that they hear the full in the White House say. I'm mandating that Schools Open in children fill the classrooms. They take that as possible. They don't think that they have a choice anymore. Because the fool in the White House has said so directly, you doesn't have that right. He doesn't have that power. No he does not, but you have You Have A. When. I call faithless governors. Their faith is only in that of the flow of the White House. That are willing to go that. Go down that road. For the very serious. For the very same reason absolutely. And, my governor is a prime example of that. Prime. Example everyone knows my husband to Santa's is endorsed by president trump, but he's also an amazing dad. Ron loves playing with the kids. Build the wall. He reads stories. Then Mr Trump said you're fired. I love that part. He's teaching Madison to talk. Make America great again. People say Ron's all trump, but he is so much more. Big-league so good. I just thought you should know. Rhonda Satis for Governor. Ignoring pandemic. That's why states like Florida are in such dire straits. Listen to what's governor to Santa's boasting last month about what great shape Florida was in. You got a lot of people in your profession who waxed poetically for weeks and weeks about Al Florida was going to be just like New, York wait two weeks. Florida's going to be next just like Italy. Wait two weeks well. Hell were eight weeks away from that and it hasn't happened. What now sh-. Now going to hear him here. You won't see him here why? because. He's got nothing to say. When he had a chance to speak. He spoke too soon. He did too little and now his state is suffering too much. New York speak. In daily cases what in April, the five day average of daily cases hit almost ten thousand terrible. Things, here still aren't great which moving in the right direction. Florida health officials reported nearly ten thousand new corona's corona virus cases on, Saturday. Its highest single day since the start of the pandemic. He made trump happy governor scientists did and now more Floridians than they can count accurately appear to be sick. Deaths from covid nineteen have mostly been among older people, but as cases surge in Florida, there are some younger people dying as well including. Yesterday Pinellas, county people in their thirties and forties eight on your side Evan Donovan joins us from the Saint Pete. This has been the deadliest week in Florida since the covid nineteen pandemic began, and now some younger people are starting to die to I'd say a lot of people have the you're probably GonNa get it mentality. Jennifer Tunis has been taking precautions even when her friends don't, but she still has the confidence of youth personally. I don't think that I'm going to die, but the thought of spreading it My mom or my brother has a new baby at home. New Data from the stage show covid nineteen isn't just spreading among young people. It's killing some of them to six people between the ages of twenty, two and forty nine have died in Pinellas County, including three just yesterday. Not only do. We have a lower death rate while we have way lower desk. Generally, we have a lower death rate than the Selah cord or DC everyone up there. We have a lower death rate than the Midwest Illinois Michigan Indiana Ohio, but even in our region Louisiana Mississippi Alabama Georgia Florida has the lower death rate, and I was the number one landing spot from tens of thousands of people leaving the number one hot zone in the world to come to my safe, so we succeeded, and I think that people just don't want to recognize it because it challenges their narrative, it challenges their. So they gotta try to find a bookie man. Maybe it's at their black helicopter circling the department of Health. If you believe that I got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. One of the most hotly contested races is for Governor of Florida between Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum and former US representative Ron Disentis. They had a debate last night and one of the big topics was the support. The Santa's has gotten from white nationalists. You've made appearances at four David Horowitz's freedom center events again four separate times for speeches amongst Mr Horowitz's statements. Quoting here this country is only serious. Race war is against whites. Is Shocking to Santa's openly embraces white nationalists, and he's not in trump's cabinet. How did he slip through the crackers? But what really think that's what it's called? But really what really got everybody talking about the debate last night was Gillam response. My grandmother used to say a hit dog will holler. In Hollywood. To this room. I don't know. It doesn't sound. Big Fans of hitting dogs in that room then kill them went in for the kill 'em Mississippi Santa spoken first of all. He's got neo Nazis helping him out in this state. He is spoken at racist conferences. He's accepted a contribution and would not return it from someone who referred to the former president of the United States as a Muslim in. Our. Oh, my God. He went on now. I'm not calling. Mr Desanta a racist I'm simply saying the racist believe he's a racist. He's casting caution to the wind. Instead of airing airing on the side of caution, he's casting. And turned trying to tell parents. You've gotTa send your kids to school. They've got to be in a class will here's the loophole? I'm going to give people. A loophole. Class doesn't necessarily mean sitting inside a brick and mortar building I E or e g a school. You can hold class at home. You can enroll in home, schooling programs and create a class in your home So! Trying to force people to send their children into an environment where they're going to be exposed. They're going to be exposed to other carriers other children that have been exposed to other adults and other children. They're going to be. Bringing. Piracy's back home. Where there may not have been a virus in the home at all. Thank you for their brother. I'll walk. All right GONNA share, a story with the guys a sad story. Unfortunately here, is showed up in the obituary column. Believe it or not of my local paper. And it says world-class Hoop Dancer and Nakata Lance dies. I saw that. Champion Hoop Dancer. Kota Laurent, who traveled the world forming with Cirque? Du Soleil. Then returned to New Mexico to coach. Youth Dancers has died at the age of thirty way too young. Lance! who was a T-, Wa, Hopi, Navajo and a cinnabon, died Sunday after he accidentally fell from a bridge in New Mexico's Rio Arriba. County and his father Steve Lawrence Let's see I'm sorry. I said his father Steve. Lawrence Nakota Laurent started dancing when he was five years old. Indian country today reported his father took him to a POW when he met champion Hoop. Dancer Derek Davis, who made him his first set of hoops and started teaching him how to dance. Native Hoop dancing involves a doing intricate footwork while twirling and throwing hoops in the air, and manipulating them into shapes, such as wings, tails an open alligator, mouth or spear. The Hoop dance is a healing ceremony. Said Lawrence Steve, Lawrence said. Just a super super energy that comes out of performing gives people a whole other feeling about them. What they saw or even about themselves. When of COAT DOES LAWRENCE? moves was to create a sphere several hoops and toss it into the air, and then step into the hoops as they came down and turn them into wings. The quota was known for delivering fearless and thrilling performances, said Dan Haggerty Director of strategic development and planning at the Heard Museum Phoenix. Is Risk taking in the hoop arena resulted in unforgettable performances, and he will forever remain a fan favourite close quote. The ranch began competing in the heard annual. World Championship Hoop dance contest as a youth, he won championship titles in each category, and won the adult division earning the title of world champion, three times in two, thousand, fifteen, two, thousand, sixteen, twenty, eighteen. The rants also performed on NBC's the tonight show with Jay Leno which led to some acting roles including a part in Steven, Spielberg's two thousand and five television series into the West. In two thousand and nine at the age of Twenty Kota became a principal dancer with Cirque de Soleil and traveled the world, performing in his show in its shows more than three years. Is He. Really was a top performer, said George Rivera a family, friend, and Co founder of a youth dance group. Most human beings, even if they're dancers would never be able to pull off what he could pull off with his style. And the fact that it was trained in Cirque du Soleil just gave him a whole nother dimension of gymnastics of gymnastics and athletic ability as well. Land. The ranch later returned to northern. New Mexico where he created a youth group the Pueblo of Pejic! I think as pronounced youth who dancer. He was also a master instructor at the lightning. Boy Foundation Youth Hoop Dancers. Quote is biggest. Love was giving back to the native American youth as a teacher, a Mentor for Native American Hoop Dancing close quote since Stephen. Laurent said. Joe Joe Vigil Fifteen started learning from the Lawrence seven years ago. He, said his coach helped boost his confidence. It was someone I could talk to who could help me with lots of stuff vigil said. It was just an overall, just great guy. The family plans to hold a memorial once the pandemic is over very very sad man. You decide. A, Good friend according ramps in for the past six weeks. I had the honour to the state with you here at silver dollar city. I'm GonNa Brag about your little bit This guy is now seven time world champion native, American Folk Dancer. Saying you've been featured in circus allays touring production toto. You've recently been featured in the opening of the Panamerican. Gains in Canada has done films. You've been featured in music videos. You modeled basically you twenty, six, twenty six, and you already had this huge career. I used to. Do Good I started about four, but. My anti-tick hotel on time to introduce me to a friend of hers and take some. Form formats get. Hotel as kitsch. And say that this story goes later. That night at went into the truck, stole the soups and started messing within. Remember I. Don't remember. Scott hoops. Quite S- longtime ago. So seven time world champion, you must be doing something right. Obviously, you consider that you do differently than the other hoop dancers, you know. My parents just gave me something you know like their Mom Minded Valley and my dad is a pal disco. That's also. Number dancers so I was just born to move. You know might moving to spend my whole life and pretty much nothing, but. And I just feel I'm just like I can feel my body. Maybe you could also talk about the formations that you create because there are so many different images and. You. Pay Tribute to many things when you do. The man, who talk was Derek famous, and he actually the foundation of the five who process where he have all the elements you know you're the butterfly equal crocodile. Ladder life of He. He's a foundation. He created these, so he gets mad. Props Lucas competition, but ensure you don't many more championships in the future. Eight months. Six. Wow fall from a bridge near. Is. Another death of key key figures, Mr John Lewis who Senator John, yes. Got Neglected. A senator representative He was A. Congressional representative, remember correctly same an essence same as a congressman Why my brain to shut off! dammit. Cummings Congressman Coming Illogic Elijah Cummings. Yes. But John, Lewis, obviously is being remembered for all it was yup off his work with Martin Luther King the the march in. And so I believe it was some Alabama. And yeah, he was there for a lot of majority of the Civil Rights Movement Yup. All of the air for the whole thing they they of a particular speech, which is alluding mine. My Brain's shutting down. Sorry guys. What I'll do is. I mean you guys will hear this post anyway I'll. I'll oh. opole clips that that will play. That don't clarify his role in many many things, but there was a particular speech given at one of the addresses, and they said that Mr Lewis was the last living member that spoke at that address so he he was the last pass away, so the people that. Spoke at that particular event are we start Organiz? who able to bring more than two hundred and fifty thousand people to March on Washington and we all had to prepare a speech. Very. Twenty three years old. It all in my hair and a few pounds lighter. Present. When Afer Randolph seeing a nine percent to you young John Lewis. The National Chairman of the Student Nonviolent Ordination Committee. Look to my right. So hundreds and hundred young people. Lebron involved during the early days. Look straight ahead. Also to see if humanity. I look. To laugh. I saw young black men, a young white man up into trees. China, get a better view. And then I said to myself. This is that. Look. Straight ahead again. Something said to me go. Over mouth that's speaking. We March today for jobs and freedom. We have nothing to be proud of him. And thousand allow brothers not here. Leaving starvation to wear are nowhere to at all. We move and. We do not want. Gradualism but we want to be free now. To Washington. Sundance. Buddhist? Wake up! Wake up what we cannot stop. We will not. Be. Right I didn't realize he was a pastor attended The American Baptist theological seminary in Fisk University. Didn't realize that that's. So Michael Dole assist to the family brothers Shamsher shares that saying you same sentiment. We extend our condolences to his family and all those who work with. One of the sound bites I. Just saw earlier today. was him talk saying that young people today understand they understand the fight net. He had no no reservation whatsoever in that they'll carry. They're going to carry this on i. mean you know the protests that are going on right? Now are obviously evidence of this. you know so. He's left a legacy for us to follow along with Dr Martin Luther King and others. And and keeping up. the civil rights fight, so you know that we're still having to fight unfortunately with with with idiots quite frankly. That just That wants to paint this world their way and and you know John Lewis was very much against that. Wanted Equality for all so. Again as Dave, said we are. Are Many thoughts prayers love and wishes go go out to the rest of Mr Lewis family. Lost lost an important person in a part of that history. Absolutely. A big part of history. since talking, Sir yes, thank you very much. Since, we're talking about change. WANNA, make you guys aware because I I saw this came into our our show inbox from the Mark Charles campaign brother. E as posted apparently some new policies on his website and here's here's the press release is A. Friend, the Mark Charles Twenty twenty team is actively developing the breadth and depth of Mark's policies centred on constitutional reform, equality, inclusion and social justice. Over the past few weeks mark has been discussing the doctrine of discovery, the set of legal principles governing centuries of colonialism and the administration of indigenous lands. And people to the present day. is also laid out his proposal to articulate the value of life into the constitution, valuing itself because the baseline that informs federal legislation in practice. Articulating this value will enable us as a nation to meaningfully inclusively and comprehensively discussing enact legislation that protects and honors, human and environmental rights. Leading up to the election mark will be releasing policies and plans weekly. And he will deliver live streams on facebook on these. Each week. bookmark our policy page on the website. Follow in tune in to learn more about where Mike Mark stands on critical issues. We facing at this time. Excuse me. If at any time you find that content is missing for the week you're looking at. Please know that the team is actively working to produce this content, and it will be posted as soon as possible. And says here a few additional updates and requests number one sign up for virtual street team and help us lead our grassroots field program. Number two. Click here to donate whenever you can afford to give. Unfortunately, we did not reach our goal to gain access to the Oklahoma ballot. But our staffing and outreach has been growing thanks to our active base of donors. Now with that said is that. Is that kill his chances brother. If no, no, no cable He can still. Wind up on other ballots. You don't have to make all fifty fifty s states. okay I. Don't Know How many delegates Oklahoma has, but. It's a big state, though well was like either generally compared to others. I guess, but it's. Ok. The gain access. To most of the other states in the country. It says here if you're registered and this is also from their release, if you're if you are a registered voter in the state of Illinois Alaska, North Dakota Utah Tennessee or North Carolina visit the ballot access page of our website for your state and sign the petition to help get mark's name on the ballot in your State Rosso Holding, online meetings specific to several states within the next couple of weeks. Those are Vermont Arkansas. Kansas North Dakota, you're in Connecticut, Texas Colorado and Louisiana and I did I did see the invite in our inbox for the one specific. Connecticut so I'm going to be attending not gets on Tuesday. Is number four here it says on July twenty fifth from one to three PM. We're holding a Washington state convention. To collect signatures Washington voters can register for this event and there's a link. and include in our show notes for this episode. Are this Oh this conversations here and we will be live streaming this event. he says, stay tuned for forthcoming information on live streams and finally check out mark's recent interview. Full Bloom by the hill of roses This was from Evelyn Amara is political strategist, so so that's what's of going on with his campaign. Yemen. Keep moving forward mark, Yup definitely. If they keep supporting you in. One what I can't help. Absolutely. You know who Steve Schmidt is. The name sounds familiar. Steve Schmidt was was a diehard political strategist conservative to the tip of his toes. Diehard live. and. During the Obama years though and he was just brutal. But. He's been A. Big A. Opposing force against the fool in the White House. And there's a video that He made in its Steve Schmidt on why Republican voters are splitting from the fool in the White House, my words. And now he's a contributor for MSNBC. He left the Republican Party. That's how disgusted he was. He left the Republican Party there was not. Yes! I have heard of this guy through. TY, t. He's an independent now right or A. Either an independent or as a Democrat I think is an independent okay yeah. But he's. He was more staunch in more Republican than Michael Steele who was the Republican? National Committee chairman for a number of years but for Steve Smith to toss in the towel. and Say I'm done with you people. You know that the full in the White House is in trouble. You know that he's in trouble. And he's hemorrhaging. Supporters like nobody's business. And you know. Biden not that I'm GONNA. Vote for him either but. But bides campaign should be capitalizing on that 'cause. It's a frigging gift. Well this gift it's A. Eight to position it this way, but. Well, we'll no I. really don't care actually. But but but if. I. If he loses enough. Support where you know. Where we see indicators like other Republican quickly try to step up to to run for run for the presidency to sort of try to sadly save their their Republican hold on on Washington, outside the Senate. the. People that are positioned weirdly in the political space such as myself, which is yeah. I'm I'm. I've classified myself more or less that aligned with Progressive Democrat vows right but but my heart and soul is really being in an on the UNFIL- unaffiliated camp because. you know of of of my reasons to hate political parties this. This hemorrhaging continues. They won't need me. It'll make it very easy for me, you know. To not have to honestly get involved and back somebody I. Really don't like I really am not abiding fan. Guys on, you know. continued to back. Mark Charles until I. Know for a fact that he. Just isn't going. GonNa like you know before me with mark if he can't make the debate stage, which is really the big hurdle of all because you have to be, you have to have some recognition. Then then I just don't see a path for him. because not people are know about him to vote for him so. That's the problem that's that's the biggest obstacle right there. It's name recognition. You've gotTa have. Now what I hope in marks cases. He doesn't get you know. Let this get him down if he doesn't you know. Continue long after the election's over to continue being known in take, continue to to Targeted points the desert, their their good points in their valid, and they need to be. They need to be elevated group so. Well you know it's a good opportunity for him to keep pressing forward the way he is. And when the next cycle rolls around you know, he will have that recognition absolutely. He will have that recognition and I. I'm I'm predicting that progressives will get behind him one hundred percent. I hope that's because I mean you know I think he has done a better job. Of clarifying point, and particularly, when it comes to foundational things he, you know one of the things here Let me let me find it for you. Guys you know. He's very good at. Defining, what the problems are and then offering solutions to fix it and you know that's. That's very very important, so here's part of his policy relevant to gender equality so. and has broken down past president future so past the United. States constitution the founding document of our nation begins with inclusive language stating. Quote, we the people in close quote. However, the full reading makes it clear that the founding fathers did not intend for we the people to actually mean all the people now transition to present our nation does not have have the baseline, constitutional tools or agreements to discuss national legislation and foundational. Systemic reform addressing sexism, the gender, gap and LGBTQ A to s plus right. Now in the future he's. He said he has here the address. TO ADDRESS GENDER? In my first one hundred days in office I will propose to Congress to remove the sexist language from the Constitution of the United States, if passed, by Congress and ratified by at least thirty eight states quote we, the people will, in fact mean all the people. So there's a path boom boom boom right. There is a pack absolute, and he identified in the constitution I want to say I. Believe, it's well over. Two hundred male pronouns. I think is what he said. So you know. We we talk about you know a deck of cards, right? Because everything else that you work on in terms of legislation and policy are bandaids until you fix the core problem in the core problem for the United States honestly is. The founding documents. including the Constitution. Only talk about you know they. Are we seeing the end result like the you know all of the the protesting going on, you know because of the inequalities in in the racist behavior police departments, and and so forth, and so on okay, but when you're founding documents is hey lack folks. You're only a third of a person. Then, you know white people go well, then they're not really people. Are they right. Now the they'll justified another words. Yes. That's exactly what. They use it as justification. This nations charter was the blueprint. For the supremacist agenda in this country. That was the blueprint that they creating. And the thing with the fool in the White House. If mark was running against him. The full would lose without a shadow of out show. Shadow with so easy and the fact that Hillary Clinton lost to the city and people go she. Vote doesn't matter. That's part of the. Your electoral process is founded in college electric. So you're you're? You're shooting yourself in the foot out of the gate? that. is by saying that we don't care about parties. WORST GONNA make it bad for the full in the White House this time around. Is You're not going to have those people that voted for him instead of Hillary. He's GonNa. Lose that that whole body. He's GonNa. Lose it because those people that voted for him. That didn't WANNA for Hillary. A majority of those people voted for Biden when he ran with President Obama. So. They're not gonNA vote for the fool in the White House again exactly. Not Going to excel, he's GonNa lose that whole chunk of people and it's that chunk of people that really elevated him to wear he is. There's an internal bet. Between some of the hose on the young Turks. As to whether or not Donald J, trump actually resigns before the election. And if all's like this. Thank you thanks was president of the company right and one of the TYP host thinks is going to quit. Getting. Is, said it numerous times. And Cusp Burien is co host is like hell. No, he's got too much pride and ego. To, quit before the election and I. Actually. I actually signed with her. You know so I don't know. What do you think, brother? Well I can see both points. Yeah, yeah I can see both points. Yankee saying that He believes that the fool will quit to save his pride and ego. Yes. Anna saying that is probably Eagle won't let him quit right. So I can see you know. Same same factors exist. In both arguments. So it's a matter of Aucoin in the coin falling. Where may the fool? Here's the thing I have to side with Anna because. The fool thinks that he's doing a great job. The. Just so retarded. I'm sorry it's so ridiculous. He thinks he's doing a great job. So why should he resign? Even though you know, everything is falling down around his head. He thinks he's doing a great job. Or that's the that's. That's the image that he's got to get people. James Carville Agrees with you James. CARVILLE seemed to have some similarities. When it comes to the chances of trump. Even continuing on with his campaign, we'll take a quick look at that Oscars are significant. I mean this thing is gone so poorly. He's so far back. Is done eager to me doesn't make much sense for him to run. This is great Moscow. Mitch Strategy after Labor Day. We're GONNA turn on. That's going to work I mean MEC Sally Ernst in Sullivan and and Lindsey been licking his boots. Bar. Three years and nine months. Come Day. We're going to get some separation. The chances of that work in Seera. Here's going to dry your whole outfit down. So jank! How do you feel about the five? You're an agreement with an establishment operative. I'm good with it. Okay so first of all the. GARBLING I. Do not agree about democratic politics, but when it comes to Democrats versus Republicans. We do agree I. Mean He's saying right there. Almost word for word what I've been saying on the show for a long time about Lindsey Graham Lick. Shrimps books I mean how many times have I said that on there, and is there anyone clear on the record that trump was going to make it all the way Senate, on, day, one. Dick, Dick, Dick. Dick Dick Okay so now. The backup with a cargo staying what I'm saying here's more from Gabriel Sherman. I love this quote. Okay Sherman Rights. Nervous Republicans worried about losing the Senate are now debating when to break from trump. Over I got I got. I got one thing to say to you guys the election coming. Okay. They're giving trump until labor day to turn things around. I'm very curious to see how they're going to react to him. Failing to turn things around because that's certainly how it's looking right now. Okay look entirely some that's real. Okay? The only thing that polishes care about their own power so an unlike donald trump they're they're not all delusional and they they understand numbers and so right now Joni Ernst. They mentioned in an article. Is Issues Senator from Iowa at a? Panic so go I was most lose I wasn't supposed to lose. What have you done Donald Trump? And as it begins to dawn on them, as they start running out of time before the election, there's only four months left to tick. They're gonNA realize this mere. It's mirror him. Trump's overs in Iowa are miserable. Let alone, Arizona. He's losing. Arizona by six or nine or something, those is Martha Bring. Sally was Nice Not Nice? No You bye-bye and all these folks are going to lose right so I. Guarantee You at some point. This ship is going to break in half, and they're both GonNa go under, and they're going to win. The Republicans civil war begins is going to be awesome and delicious. ME. Who? Care Way. We know that Donald Trump is down in the dumps. We know that he's upset. And you guys know that that always makes me feel better. About person but I don't care. He's a horrible individual. Who's done terrible things to so many Americans but I. do want to update you guys WanNa pull that. We had on this very topic. We asked our viewers. Do you think trump will drop out of the race? If he's losing badly enough and look the majority of viewers actually agreed with me sixty nine point fifty five percent say no, there's no way bad polling would make him drop out and a little over thirty percent of our viewers disagreed and said Yeah He. He's going to drop out if he's losing badly enough so. I don't know if anyone has changed their minds in this poll. I still haven't because even if there's mounting pressure for trump to drop out, I just don't think that he has it in him to accept that and to actually follow through with dropping out of the race, but who knows I could be wrong and if I am wrong. I'm still going to be pretty happy because I want him out. Here's another. Scary way to look at. WHAT THE END result brother! because. An argument could be made right now. To, put forth a constitutional amendment because I think that's where it would have to go. to eliminate. To eliminate the term limits for the presidency. Because, I firmly believe he has done so much damage in in three and a half short years. You more than eight years to correct it. That could be a double edged. Oh, I know I'm. Just saying. I'm just saying that. That's the level of impact in my opinion. Right when you look at the audio it when you look at the totality of at all of the damage. Yet and it's it's massive. We people used to think that Bush did hack job on the nation. Know. What Bush did to the nation was cranes paper compared to what this is. Absolutely. You, know we. We can't be any worse off while. I and I clarified that statement with with this disclaimer. We can't be any worse off than we are now short of other countries coming here to attack us. And I think we're pretty damn close to that. That secret police force that he's created. I believe those foreign troops. Why do I say that he can't legally use. The US military. For those types of action actions, he can't. So, he can bring in foreign troops, and he can federally deputize. LEM To do that kind of work or in from wear though. That's the question where they from. Nine am there made there may be some of his good old boys that are in that group, but I think some of those those. What are the? What does the labeling them as federal police? And I think some of those people from other countries other militaries. Just because of the way, their tactics are being run. The the to defined. The too successful. For some group Gay. Who's to be doing something like that? No. You. Maga- militia. A little more organized than that. Well. I'm one more trump point in note in terms of the the castle falling down if you will did you also hear that? Brad parcells got demoted. Yeah you got kicked in the teeth big. What they did in essence with Brad. Is he got credited falsely. I think for being the mastermind behind the twenty sixty and trump campaign. Okay, so you know we saw we saw campaign managers coming, go throughout the entire thing leading up to this chaos and that is supposedly the White House administration. Landing ending I guess with Who's WHO's the Blonde Lady? That's A. That is on his staff right now. mcenery near Mac at noon. No, no, no, not the press secretary the One of his humorous advisors at. No No. Her husband is is part of A. He grew up. Create the Lincoln Project. Him Steve Smith. Created the Lincoln. Yes, so, what's his wife's name? I'm Leon from New Jersey Kelly-kellyanne Conway thank you there you go, thank you grounded. And and so you know, she was the last person in the role of campaign manager. If I remember correctly, and then she got sort of this half asked. You know congratulations from the full in the White House when he was doing his inaugural speech after I mean when he was doing his not the inaugural speech I'm sorry when he accepted winning. Gary Goes. Go to. Handle this whole thing well. Pass Cowles The real the real. Bones behind the win of the campaign had to do with quite honestly the social media campaigns. Okay? And went on courage. You guys to do if you want to understand this fully and better is to go and watch the great hat on Netflix. Okay. Because they way it explains how. They took facebook data in particular, but also twitter. FACEBOOK data to create voter electoral profiles. And then did very specific targets of advertising using advertising dollars back into social media by creating discourse and also a lot of well to use this term fake news. Throughout social media channels and got people to believe. That he was. Superior. Herbs, dealmaker and God knows whatever else. Who has seen an advertisement? That has convinced you that your microphone is listening to your conversations. All of your interactions. Your credit card swipes web searches locations likes. They're all collected in real time into a trillion dollar a year industry. Real? Game Changer was Cambridge only. It works the trump campaign and the brexit campaign. They started using information. Warfare, Cambridge POLITICA claimed to have five thousand eight points. Every American voter. Is Sati tracking down all these Khaimah Gianluca. Ex employees someone else that you should be calling the committee's Britney Kaiser. Birthday Kaisa wants a key player inside Cambridge analytica casting herself as a whistle blower. The reason why Google fees are powerful companies in the world is because last year data surpassed oil in value. Data's the most valuable asset on earth. Targeted, those whose minds thought we can change until they saw the world the way we wanted them to. Do know that targeted tool. This considered a weapon. There is the possibility that see American public had been experimented on. This is becoming criminal matter when people see the extent of the surveillance I think they're going to be shocked. And I still here for your life, yeah, the powerful people veteran Paul. Keep quite because we'll make. Should be considered to fundamental rights. is about the integrity of democracy, these platforms which were created to connect us. Have now he recognized. It's impossible to know what is what? Nothing is was it seems. So Watch that watch documentary. Understand this well. Basically, this demotion put par scales back in that role so when I've seen people out there going. Well the the campaign is now going to be complete chaos because you know who's going to step up right now to become his campaign manager while it doesn't really matter because he's going to fall back on that old. All right. And so I'm hoping that Some doors have been closed. You know crossing fingers and toes. at the Social Media Network Management Level so that for example. FACEBOOK cannot give a campaign The type of data access. Of course they tried to blame it on the Obama campaign. They said Obama's second term campaign did the exact same thing with with facebook data, right, but My thing is like shut it all off. If you will all right that you know you pay you pay your social media ad dollars, but you can't manipulate that based on you know. My user profile data that you stole in two thousand sixteen. Okay so just because facebook. facebook. Rules were so lackadaisical back then you know. So so. Just be aware of that, and that's why I'm saying. Watch the great hack because it does a great job explaining how that data was used, then how it's been used for other campaigns around the world and don't think for a minute. That can't happen again. you know because with so many people's eyeballs on social media these days I have no confidence whatsoever that Martin Sucker Berg Mark Zuckerberg turned over a new leaf in the last three and a half years. So. Now, he didn't. That's my warning to you guys. Laughed too hard when I send you this facebook all right. But while you do that. Everybody's obviously been following You know the protests and in what they're about. You know primarily focused on You know the behavior of police towards of color right, but more input particularly the way the news media has put it black people right. Well here's a story. out of the Seattle Times is to show you that it's not just. Black people right. Family of Lula man, who died struggling with the deputy, says his last words quote I can't breathe were concealed. The family of to level of tulip tribal. Who died while struggling with a sonoma's comedy sheriff's Deputy in two thousand fifteen legislative investigation into his death, was whitewashed, and his last words of I can't breathe. We're left. Arrow the investigation documents. The family of Sicily Lacy Junior asset has sent a letter to governor Jay Inslee, with more than one hundred fifty pages of supporting documents and exhibits asking for an independent criminal review of his death, which was deemed an accident by Sonoma's county medical examiner. Letter claims the detective who investigated the death toll from this and Amish counties municipal. Response Team or smart. Quote conspired close quote with a union appointed attorney, representing the deputy, the metal, the medical examiner and prosecutors to quote doctor, and destroy evidence, and otherwise concealed the truth associated with Mr Lacy's death close quote. The purported investigation into Mr Lacy's death warrant. Your attention vis-a-vis a broader calls for police reform wrote. The family's attorney gave Glenda. The Smart Investigation into Mr Lacy's death exhibited numerous irregularities in questionable practices that warrant independent review. Tower lease spokesperson for the Inslee Office. The governor had received the letter quote. We have conversations with our legal counsel. And Attorney General's Office about the next step, she said. The readability excuse me. The reliability of the investigations of officers involved deaths by other police officers has long been subject to criticism, but has come under particular scrutiny since the death of George Floyd while under the knee of a Minneapolis police officer. Initial reports by office by officials that Floyd. died of a heart attack were met with skepticism Given the video of the officer kneeling on his neck for more than seven minutes. The State of Washington Pass an initiative Nine forty two years ago, seeking a setting up guidelines for outside investigations of police involved deaths. However, few agencies have followed guidelines. INSLEE ordered an independent investigation into the death of Manual Ellis Tacoma man with died in March while restrained by police and asked. And asked Attorney General Bob Ferguson Do Review Twenty. Other police involved desk gauge the compliance with I nine forty. So The rest of the will be in the show notes so It's not just one ethnic group folks. No, it's not and these coroner's that arriving these false reports. They should be held accountable as well. because. Somebody's paying them to write these false reports. They can't be that incompetent I. refuse to believe that a corner is that incompetent? They're doing the fricken autopsy. You're going to dig into somebody biting. That nine millimeter round has definitely police issue I'll just throw into trey and we won't discuss it. Yeah that's. What it boils down to. That's basically what it boils down to I listen. I have attended autopsies. I find it interesting as heck. It's like looking under the hood it. This is what I compare it to. It's like looking under the hood of a classic car. I just I just find the human body that fascinating. And Trust me when I tell you. A medical examiner. And the corner. There there are two different people sometimes. They're the same. But. The medical examiner is as thorough as anything. I've ever seen in my life. Anything every single aspect of that that individual is examined. Tests are run. A competent thorough medical examiner will leave. No stone unturned. None. I mean even down to eyelashes. They will leave the hair. Nobody will leave. No stone unturned to member. A gentleman he was, he was also medical examiner, but. He's done. He's been called in on a lot of investigations, a guy by the name of Michael Baden. Yes Dr Bought. He I learned a lot about that line of work through. Frankly his work and investigations looking at home now I, don't I'm not even sure if he's still alive or not. You know, but he would have been a type of person that they would have called in for like Jeffrey Epstein right when they were looking at the his vertebrae and stuff like that. While Dr Baden, it's still he's still living okay, and as a matter of fact. I think it was him. That offered An opinion on Epstein death. Of Duty Okay I wasn't aware that all right. Let me see if I can find it. While you do since this is a loose format. I'm going to change subjects on you. Again. because this is a subject that we've talked about on the show before and still needs to be addressed now this this is outside the United States. presented from ABC News title reads Calgary Estate Sale. Auctioning. Indigenous items brings calls for repatriation. Collector assumed hundreds of indigenous in court. Western items, Leonard monk men for CBC News wrote this. And he writes Frank Hall appraisals and estate sales is handling the sale of the Frank Holt collection. I'm sorry. I'm actually jumped ahead. Here. LemMe Lemme Lemme start. And Mr Monk writes an estate sale. Calgary has hundreds of indigenous items, including pipes, moccasins, beadwork and Regalia up for auction, and is prompting calls from indigenous youth to repatriate them. Frank appraisals and estate sales is handling the sale of the Frank Collection. On the auction site it says quote. Holtz collection includes nineteenth and twentieth century, beaded Moccasins, cradle board Tomahawk pipes beadwork. Bucks Invest Rifle Rifle sheaths. Arrow cases, pouches, necklaces, and chokers. Some of the items are labeled as blackfoot sue and stony pieces. It also includes other items like cowboy hats, leather leggings spurs and furniture. This needs to stop these items and things that are going up for sale like this. These are family. Stories said Mark Provost with blackfoot from Pick any nation and a student at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver. He said he called the auction house earlier this week, and left a message and got a call back the next day quote. He didn't give me his name. We were talking and I was like. I Have A. I just have some questions about the auction, said provost. Provost asked the man on the phone if he considered how harmful it is to indigenous people to sell traditional items and told him that is problematic. He said that not too long after the conversation started, the person from the company asked him if he went to school and provos replied yes. Quote he was like. Do you pay for your education and I was like? Well I'm on scholarship from my band, said promos meaning of this first nations band. Quote. Against the person on the phone said, and he said well exactly so you don't someone else is paying for it and he said I don't have time for this and hung up. On freaking believable but That's no it's. It's a bids believable. Provo said he would like to see. The items return to the first nations near Calgary. SOC- and it goes on here to say. Museums collectors need to take. The lead says most when Seth Cardinal. Dodging horse saw the online sale the first thing he noticed was the auctions description that reads very fine plains Indian material. Seeing, the quoting here seeing the objects, and then seeing how each individual item was titled, there were few that had their nations listed, and the majority of them didn't have said Cardinal Dodge dodging horse. Mr Dodging horse who is blackfoot and cree from I'm sorry I'm not gonna be able to pronounce This name the no disrespect to Mr Dodge horse. Among or not try. but from from his nation's he is an artist who graduated from the Alberta University of the arts. As someone who grew up fascinated by seeing old photos of his family and Regalia, Mr dodging harsh has taken it upon himself to study and research where these items have have gone. I've been working on a film that talked about my family repatriation. Finding family objects in museums and I'm trying to understand how these things ended up in the museum's Said Cardinal. Dodging horse. He said when it comes to repatriating traditional cultural items. Indigenous peoples have often. indigenous peoples have a often have to reach out in put effort into them and to have them reclaimed. What he would like to see is an effort on the part of the museums and private collectors to reach out to indigenous nations from where the items originate. Apparently the collector loved the old West So. The article goes on here again. Say The auction for the Frank Holt collection began on Tuesday, according to the auctions company's website halts. Real name was Frank Jergen. Hold a take. And he's listed as famous trick Roper in movie producer, close quote. A death notice in the Calgary Herald said hold tight was born in one, thousand, nine, thirty, seven in West Prussia. And that he died on May fifth of two thousand nineteen. It said quote is love for the Old West. Pervaded his entire life close quote. So that makes it okay to take our stuff apparently because you love the old West. I get tired of people like the. Says Frank Hall. The owner of the auction company has been in business since nineteen seventy nine. He said he knew Holt personally and that he was a very honorable guy. Right lismore morale includes in the show. Notes you guys but The dated and again this is in Canada. This isn't here. I don't know what Canadian policy is relevant to repatriation in the United States We can make claims to the native American Graves Repatriation Act. doesn't mean it's perfect by any stretch, and certainly we have resistance that comes from Many educational institutions and museums of others are getting much better at. At being sensitive and and and complying with with the Act so when a tribe makes a formal request to have items that they're aware are in in in their collections, to to return them but like I said a number of institutions, still like the fight that one of the biggest offenders in this is still to this date is believe it or not the Smithsonian. So we continued to educate and continued to try to get our stuff returned Because of the families, and the tribes want them back so absolutely. Absolutely. Should I sent you. The article in its entirety live to message on facebook. Okay. Cost download it from the link. They want you to open Oberland Account An. Okay hang on one second after I'm making a note to send this to their email soy. I know this is from conversations one. All right I did know Dr Baden at that autopsy Oh. He was yes. Okay so you found that out. Okay so, here's what. Here's what Dave sent to me while this is long. girling. I'M NOT GONNA. Read this, but. Now No. I don't blame me. Let's see here with a goofy and. I WANNA. Put the collection together. All these stupid as trump faces. People are great at catching the dumb ass. Expressions by Donald trump man. There's like it looks like such a Douche bag ch-. Yeah Notices notices his paint job. Yeah, whoever did it did a horrible job? It's like the guy is frigging orange like all the time. Okay? Like as in his his his skin, orange tone is different from his is Yellow Hair, which I guess I should be impressed by at his age that his hair doesn't turn gray. It just is yellow. Hair colour clear that he goes into like a son booth or something right and they stick. Probably cucumber over his eyes, and so he bakes himself until he's frigging. Orange takes a cucumbers off, and then he makes pressing then he makes press appearances like that. It's it's. It's Spray Tan. Is it really okay? Yes, go actually spray. Tan, so these. That's why stay. Whoever did the job did a horrible job. Look eyebrows because look at his eyebrows wait. We need somebody explain. Glasses down. It's like loss. Committee explained to me. All right. The process of tanning. And spray painting. Yourself to be prone intensive purposes. Is it not the goal when you go into a tanning booth to become Brown? So we have A, we have a well noted racist here, called Donald J trump. Somebody should have told him by now. I'll use use the proper etiquette of title even though I completely don't agree with it. Don't say. Okay okay, we'll do it like this. Mr P. Word. Sir, Good not getting Tan Sir I'm concerned for your health quite frankly. There's potentially. A. A skin problem mister P.. A.. I would really encourage that you discontinue. Treatments, look great why. Don't other great I think tastic done. We'd pandemic. Me Home. No No. No, you don't. Not that I'm knocking the guys baldness because God knows I'm follicly-challenged myself. Embraced by. Yes, he's also bald. Well. I'M GONNA. The reason I'm mentioning that is because you mentioned his hair. He's bald if you look at that picture. Look towards the back of his head. You can see scout what he's got going on as a comb over no I'm just. Kidding not. Want! I don't use wearing a comb over I'm sure I don't care. What this individual I don't air. So. Let's see I'm just sort of perusing the the article since says Dr, Michael Baden. One of the world's leading forensic pathologists viewed. EPSTEINS body and was present at the topsy held August eleventh. Day After Epstein was found dead fast while. At the notorious Metropolitan Correction Center. In downtown Manhattan now now the thing the thing I find interesting, too is now that his accomplishing crime. is now under arrest and being held. which is The lady there? the the call her social late. Anyway the the other child abuser. That I will I will prejudge her. They're worried about another suicide attempt. And, so they are making her from love. The reporting that I've heard for mainstream anyway. paper uniform. So that if she attempts to hang herself. As, head Stein dead the the uniform, she would rip. And Not Support Weight. Pretty sick but understandable. Especially from the perspective of the victims who want to see her go to trial. And Unripe should and not escape that. As Epstein dead. let's see. So there's tons of A. There's tons of of a questionable things I. Guess around the Epstein Death Anyway, but I was just curious if he was involved in the case at all, and obviously you've you've confirmed that that he was so He's he's A. He's I I. I respect his His conclusions as I do some of the crime investigation that Dr, try members I dr Lee. Used to do it before for police work, My father actually trained under him for a short period of time I found that. As well, yeah, so some of the investigative he would teach police police departments in classes in some some destination stuff so now. That was pretty cool But Yeah I. Always wanted to meet Dr Lee. Dr Baden I. Think he's I'm trying to remember her ready passed away or annoy retired and on doctor really retired. But I don't know if he had. Passed away or not. I don't know if he's still living either. There's Some crap that I've been following about fool in the white. House's ordering the CDC to report all of an high in hospitals. Mind you report all of their data hhs. Early. So hospitals supposedly are no longer able to report their the Kobe numbers to the. CDC. report them to HHS. Now here's what's happened. They scrubbed the CDC website. Really. Scrub it. and. Coincidentally. The Russians hacked the CDC website at the same time. How convenient now! So now what the fool is doing is he's got the numbers in hand, and he's going to cook the books with the numbers. Will at Dr that the heads of the CDC I'M GONNA get in so much trouble. Despite everything I've ever stood for on this show, but anyway. Kind of looks like a Russian to me. Take. where? Think about. 'EM SOMEONE's trouble. Think about new. Here's the article from axios. It's reported elsewhere to. White House tells hospital to bypass. On coronavirus data change from the trump administration that takes effect today requires hospitals to stop sending their corona virus data to the CDC and said ascended to the administration, so we're GONNA. Bring in leader Jiang to talk a little bit about this change we what do we know about what this means? Where's that information? Going and sort of? What's the overall concern? So. It means that thousands and thousands of hospitals across the country are now point to be sending their data to the Department of HHS which is here in Washington health and human services instead of the CD which really relies on this data to come up with guidelines into tell Americans how they should behave to protect themselves based on this information and HHS Chechen saying look, it's because the CDC is not reporting. It is quick enough for what the country needs to keep up. With the trends and understanding what's happening with the virus because it's an old system and they've already shown that they have about a week lag, and that's why hhs will will now take over, but critics were very quick to say that this is just another attempt by the administration and president trump to politicized science. Because more and more, you're seeing. That the CDC is almost being pushed out of the way here when typically during a pandemic like this, it would have the leading role. And you know this is just the latest of several steps we've seen for example most recently on schools. The president came out and said that the CDC's guidelines about reopening were too tough and that he wanted new measures. When it came to reopening more in general to. Your member a couple of months ago. He said the same thing which was that. The guidelines were too prescriptive. He wanted something simpler and. Health experts are saying this is not the time to keep things simple that these scientists at the are using their expertise to make. Conclusions and recommendations for people at a time that we need. To be as specific as possible, so we can try to get control of this virus. Of My ass. Right. So. You know people should be paying attention to that. Because all of a sudden, you're going to see the numbers plummet. For coronavirus cases. All of a sudden almost non-existent see. We told you it would be done in no time flat. And that's what people should be paying attention to. Only the fools, cult members are going to applaud on that kind of stupidity. Agreed Yeah. It's GonNa make it more difficult for hospitals. State health departments and The the average citizen to know how to address this. That's one of the reasons I keep harping about. Wear your mask. Because I keep telling people where in the wind, we're on our own. And by the the food administration, doing what they just did. That code is what I just miss. Say it by. We're on our own. They've left us out in the wind we are. We are going to be victims of the process. Wear the mask. Because they're gonNA cook the books on this. Well going to see those numbers disappear there already. They're already going to buy a honestly this. This is where I'm at I I. Don't listen anything coming out of Washington and as far as the the white, house or you know with exceptional Anthony Fauci I don't even I don't even really. I don't even hold the same level of steam for barbeque. Because because of some controversial statement, she's made in at understand the environment that they're living in okay but you mean hell. Trump isn't even even having conversations with thousand. At this point, you know so so anything having to do with corona virus I want nothing to do with the administration on I am relying on on state sources, okay, and the health professionals that are independent of the white. House. House you know you know with some limited trepidation. The CDC of course World Health Organization and others. You know that are collaborating without him quite frankly, and without the White House because they're useless, and they have deer, just taking the bull by the horns, and they're saying we're going to put out to the public the best available information that we have on this virus that he's killing at this point over one hundred thirty thousand citizens of this country. Yeah I. Think we're getting forty now, okay? But there's another side to this that nobody's paying attention to. Bed Space in the hospital. So they're telling people. Here's the narrative. They're putting out now. All the hospitals have been lying. You know the state. Health departments have been lying. There's plenty of hospital bids. There's plenty of hospital beds. We'll see people aren't making the well that's that's true. There are plenty of hospital bids. That's not untruth. But what people aren't making the connection to? Is Hospitals in the state health departments are talking about. Intensive Care Unit beds. That's the difference. There are no more intensive care unit bids correct. Not, in Florida. A. Couple of other states well the yeah in the areas that are being hard hit. Their capacity for intensive union. CARE beds. And See. People aren't making that that connection. There aren't making that distinction. They hear beds in the hospital. Oh, they're lying to its. There's plenty of bits. Well, they can't turn just a regular Oh hospital floor into an intensive care unit. This too much specialized equipment that's needed which they're not gonNA get access to. Because the fools, administration is not going to give him access to it. It takes more than five minutes to convert on the entire floor into an intensive care unit. That's too much specialized equipment and wiring, and all that other crap. It has to be done. So the narrative that they're pushing is ally. It's a white lie. It's a half truth. There leading people to believe. That this plenty of bids. In an intensive care unit. And that's not the case. There are no more intensive care unit beds, and these states that are that are hot spots like Florida in Texas in Arizona. I agree that's the. That's the other side of the narrative that they're not telling people. And married been getting pushback from people on my friends. facebook about that very same thing. And I had to tell them the very same thing I said sure there's lots of hospital beds, but what you're not getting is the fact that they're not telling you that there are no more intensive care unit bids. The specialized units that most of these people that have died while end up in. because. That's where they needed to be. So see when I explain it to them. They're like. Oh, well, yeah. There's a difference. It's like apples and oranges. Whether it's. It's just they? Like I, said I'm I'm very simplistic and you know I grant you. People can even say that. I'm not only maybe arrogant, but also Too simplistic or ignorant to certain things. But you know I. I'm not saying. Don't pay attention to you. Know the crap coming out of Washington but I do not spend an enormous amount of time anymore. listening to anything. That they have to say. What should yeah, no I agree But I'm I'm just trying to. And I'm doing things while I'm talking at the same time. I had to subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, because I want to see an article that they Let me see which way you have been like right here. Just to kind of conclude on because my laptops about to die and I'll have I'll have my plug down here and it sounds really bad. In the recording, but okay. yeah I just to conclude on what you're saying though I just I just. There's no credibility there at all other. Than Dr. Fau gene to a limited degree You know Dr Barbara Burke okay, you know, but but they have created a condition for on sadly these these medical professionals to live in that is not livable, and what would that basically boils down to is if you give the American people the truth about. What they understand around covid nineteen They're going to shoot you down. Look at the the campaign against Dr Ci Right. Now put put out by the administration. Okay, there is nothing that you should be listening to coming out of that administration or from the CO or from the Corona virus taskforce that you can believe at all period you need to be listening to your local health professionals who are in touch with the right people for proper guidance around this pandemic period. That's it. There's nothing else that you know to dwell on around this. You know when when when when asshole opens his mouth, close your ears. When when the vice president opens his mouth closure ears. When Dr Barbara Burke opens her mouth. Put one hand over one ear. Okay because that's that's basically the gist of it. So. Pretty much all right one last thing because I'm getting calls from above. Okay And that is this caught. My attention in one of the news feeds. It says this is from the Wall Street. Journal Opinion Column. Says Native. American sovereignty is no liberal truth. Now I'm going to say up front I have not read this, so I'm sharing it with you guys as I learn as I, read it and it says the tribes that will benefit from last week's Supreme Court ruling are anything but progressive They right here in this was the. This is the opinion of right 'em todd. Henderson who have not done any background research on I. Don't know if he's left right or whatever? but he says here he writes the Supreme Court has handed a big win to the sovereignty of native American tribes. He writes the court's ruling in mcgirt versus Oklahoma which I know you. We've shared on on the show and I think you shared more when that day I was gone. That Congress. Did Not. disestablish. Indian reservations when Oklahoma became a state in nineteen o seven means now the eastern half of the state is now ending country in quotes, and in large part under the rule of tribes like the creek and the Cherokee. Liberals cheered Neil Cottrell who served as solicitor general under President Obama tweeted quote so good to see tribes winning at Skoda's close quote. It strange for Democrats to cheer for sovereignty of natives, just because they have been mistreated in history, and because president, trump and Oklahoma Republicans took the other side. Tribes are hardly bastions of liberal ideas in in a host of areas, and they have a complicated history to say the least writes this nonindigenous man. That's me adding that. For one thing, the tribes that will benefit from mcgirt fought for the confederacy Oh. Oh, he's going. Go this direction, okay? For one thing, the tribes that will benefit from Gerke fought for the confederacy and enslaved Africans the Cherokees own slaves, and denied membership for the descendants of slaves, the so called Cherokee Freedman until forced to accept them and twenty seventeen under the order of the Federal District, court will golf clap for him. He was doing some reading. Right, all right okay, moving on tribes are also. On Values Sacred to Democrats, he writes the Creek. Don't recognize gay marriage. He says a statute passed in. Okay, let's stop right there. Hate to break to them. That's their right. Who there's that word again. Rights. If true I don't know if it's true but I'm going based on what he's writing here. let's see. Creeks don't recognize gay marriage. He wrote a statute passed in two thousand and one provides quote. A marriage between persons of the same gender performed in another Indian nation or State shall not be recognized as valid and binding in the Muskogee Creek nation close quote. Although members of the tribe are united, states citizens the supreme. Court has held that. The Constitution does not apply to them on issues of discrimination based on race, sex, sexual orientation or other traits. that. Gay Creeks are treated worse than other Oklahomans is. Stray is a strange thing for Democrats to celebrate irritates. So here. He's conflating the wrong sings. Oh. These people have such a bizarre. Way of tying to things that have nothing to do with each other. What does what does this ruling by the Supreme Court have anything to do with frigging Democrats first of all. He's tying one tweet so far as far as what I'm reading one tweet by a Democrat congratulating the tribe on a win in the Supreme Court. He's turned it into. Let's take the Muskogee creek missions gay policy. Could've could've concentrated on anything you dumb ass. It has nothing to do with that so here we're going to. We're going to diminish aron his his an attempt to diminish of victory by a tribe in a Supreme Court setting. Yeah exactly. All right one quick last licensure. This. I was reading an article. I've been following an article on now. Why the full is been so against the mail in ballots while he took it one step further. His new newly minted postmaster general. Excuse me. It has slowed delivery amid calls to expand voting by mail. Now his new postmaster general Louis Joy a top trump donor. Garth who gave more than two million into the GOP. Excuse me. warned that employed. warned employees excuse me. Pardon me, the agency needed to make difficult decisions to stay afloat according to a new report in The Washington Post. This has got nothing to do with how poorly or how well the post office is doing. Absolutely nothing it's got everything to do with slowing. The Mail! To keep ballots from getting counted. and. Here's what here's what he mandated. If the plant runs late, they will keep the mail for the next day. One guideline says according to documents obtained by the Post and verified by the American, postal workers union so by doing that. If ballots don't make it yet by a certain time Yup by a certain time, they become invalid. So. This is their their latest attempt. To. Push voter suppression to the limits you. Now, you know coming off of that I don't have it in. I don't know we may. We may need to set up another recording time for. More conversations. The Young Turks a story the, were they? They obtained. audio from both the Don Jr... And the trump in one of these Robo calls. supporting mail in Ballot Donald Trump's campaign to undermine the credibility of mail in voting has actually been sabotaged. By members of his own family, and not only that his family's been colluding with the Republican National Committee. It's the latest installment of as the White House turns. For Big mistakes I ask for his resignation. In. General. So. We've all heard at some of the nonsense coming from Donald. Trump the anti mail in voting conspiracy theories. Here's one example. He tweeted rigged twenty twenty election. Millions of mail-in ballots will be printed by foreign countries and others. It will be the scandal of our times, but it turns out that trump's own son. John Junior and his daughter-in-law, Laura trump have both recorded robocalls encouraging people. To, vote by mail. In fact, we have an example. Here's Laura Trump Eric's painfully hosting wife. Hi. This is Laura trump calling from the Republican. National Committee to remind you that you will soon be receiving a ballot for the congressional special election in your district. Taking place on Tuesday may twelfth for my family yours. We hope that you're all safe and healthy. During this time now more than ever. We need strong allies, Lake Mike Garcia and. To keep America Great. You can safely and securely vote from my Garcia by. Mail in ballot by May Twelfth he's counting on you to return your ballot by election. Day Tuesday may twelfth. Don't let them down, remember. Your mail in ballot is arriving soon. Make Your Vote Count for Mike Garcia and get it in the mail. By Tuesday may twelfth. This call was paid for by the Republican National Committee and authorized by Mike Garcia pre-congress. Say Safely and securely, and you can vote by mail safely and securely and John as if that wasn't enough. Here comes John Don. Jr. Trump's own son. Twisting that knife, take a look. This is donald trump junior calling from the Republican National Committee to remind you to return your ballot for the congressional. Special election in your district by Tuesday, may twelve. We're counting on you to make your voice heard by returning your ballot by Tuesday may twelfth. Don't let us down. Remember. Return your ballot now. Make Your Vote Count for Republican. Mike Garcia and get it in the mail Tuesday may twelfth paid for by the Republican National Committee and authorized by Mike Garcia pre-congress now up prefacing this by saying to me, the audio sound doctored. So outlets like there's have to be careful and see if they can try to verify that because there is software out there. One actually is produced by adobe. that will allow You take the the actual An actual recording from a person speaking so right now I'm talking and the software allows software can read taxed data so in other words you can type in sentences. And it will match the frequency of my voice and make it sound like I made that statement. And it sound. It sounded to me like that was the case on these calls. So they went with it and ran with it and said that you know this is proof that. that. Don Jr. and his dot and and vodka are actually. Working Against Donald Trump. Yeah that might come back to bite him in the yeah. Yeah, that's so. That's why I'm telling. You guys that you know. They did. Run some audio that May Be made that assertion. I'm not. GonNa go that far. knowing what I know about some technology that's out there and likewise that same technology. They can also deal with video. So so So Anyway! You guys aware. But I guess best I guess we better. Wrap this thing, brother. Yes Oh would that will just say. Thank you guys very very much. Yes or listening in this this off time and just as a reminder. We will be back. Live with you guys on August first. That'll be our next a live show. August first so. All right so with that I'm Michael kicking bear is. Great will be with us. Guys thanks very much. Bye. Along.

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TNW 76: You Samsung'd My Apple!

Tech News Today

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

TNW 76: You Samsung'd My Apple!

"What happens after you lead Facebook? Why we need to worry about the European copyright directive breakdown Apple's event this week. And I'll give you a first look at the new ipad, mini and the new air pods. All that and more coming up on techniques weekly. Casts. You love from people you trust. This is. This is tech news weekly episodes seventy six recorded Thursday, March twenty eight twenty nineteen this episode techniques weekly is brought to you by on voi- on builds beautiful. Modern software to help businesses elevate. The physical workplace experience with on voi- visitors. You can Greek guests with a welcoming sleek, ipad, signing up still protecting your people property, and ideas. Start your free trial today at Ombo dot com slash twit. And by fresh books, the ridiculously easy to use invoicing an accounting software, if you don't believe us, try it free for thirty days at fresh books dot com slash T and W. Hello. Why? Welcome to tech news weekly. This is the show every week. We talked to people making and breaking the tech news. I'm Meghan Maroney. Jason L. Let's do many of us have considered deleting. Our Facebook accounts chasing has claims to have done it. But he as afraid to check back to log good Kissel. But one brave soul, we know has actually deleted his account and lived to tell about it here to discuss his experiences. Brian x Chen technology columnist from the New York Times. Welcome. Thanks for having me. So real you a regular Facebook user before you gave it up, and why did you decide to give it up? So I had been using Facebook since the year after it came out what year did it come out again somewhere like thousand five or something. Yeah. So like, I was in college at the time, I was one of the first universities to get access to Facebook. So that was one of the early adopters, and it was just last year where I just felt like, you know, enough is enough because it was like data scandal outer data scandal that just seem to be coming up every week and especially after Cambridge politica. I think the last draw for me was when Facebook reported there was like some some attack on their network, and tens of millions of accounts had been exposed like this is one of many scandals last year. Right. So I was just like, okay. I can't really trust this company if my data anymore. I'm just gonna hit the delete button. Tanzer your question like I had I had been paring down on Facebook usage overall over the past couple of years because I just felt that I was getting less and less joy from using the service. I just felt that you know, like it was. People who I barely knew or barely know anymore. Barely talk to from college and posting about political news and all these things, and I just didn't really want to participate in in anymore. So I had been thinking about it for a long time deleting that is so you did not give up Instagram which is owned by Facebook and tell us what happy you started to see some odd ads there. Yeah. What's funny is that so because I deleted Facebook Instagram. No longer had very much information about me. So they started thinking that I was a woman I on Instagram on your account profile, you don't state your gender. I didn't realize this until later. But yeah. So the retirements I was starting to get where things for like women's bathing suits, slippers, make up Sephora ads, for example. And I thought it was kind of funny because I thought like maybe Instagram thinks I'm life beyond safe because she gets the same ads, and I thought maybe they think we're the same person because we share our dogs Instagram account. Counts. But I think it's it's mostly because basically just don't know why am anymore, which is kind of interesting now, you not only deleted Facebook. But you also went one step further you installed tracker tracker blockers can reduce those targeted ads. So that's probably part of what you're talking about there. It just goes eight wirewood it can't figure out who the heck you are. They've just got annot was there any collateral damage doing that? Because I know that seems like a good next step to do. I've deleted my Facebook account. But I know I'm, you know, I'm not I'm not living in a fantasy world where I believe that Facebook doesn't have some sort of insight into me their trackers all over the place. Did it have any collateral damage that you noticed you mean, collateral damage in terms of like websites breaking? Yeah. Exactly. Like you wanted to block the ad tracking. But sometimes when you have like, you know, scripts being cancelled in the background that sort of stuff. It can affect other things that you weren't maybe intending tracker. Blocking is a gentler than at blocking ad blockers adblocker as kind of extreme or sometimes even blocks elements that are part of a website like say like a social media like Twitter tool or something like that. And yet for some reason that tracker block or doesn't break as many elements. I have had some cases where like I was shopping. And for some reason the shopping cart was not adding items small things like that and for sites like that. I would just white with the site for the tracker blocker and just add the item and be able to successfully check out. So I know like things like that could be a hassle for people who are kind of average tech users who don't really want to put up with this stuff. But I found a trade off to be worth that you know, like, I personally don't feel like that. I wanna get ads that are very relevant to me. Because honestly, they convinced me to buy a lot of stuff. So you said you you have the Instagram account that you share with your partner? That's cooking with fat max at some some day max will be an influence or a pet influence or if it's a last thing I do. Do. Snuff. Okay. He's famous enough. That's the way I feel about myself. But so you do not have your own personal Instagram account as well. 'cause I'm confused about why they're not just getting information from that. I do have my own personal Instagram account. It's a private one. It's just you know for me, but I'm still getting women's ads on that Instagram account as well. So it's a bit strange. And I think a big thing is that because you don't state your gender in your Instagram profile. They just simply don't know. I'm a man anymore. I have no idea why they would default as game woman. But I generally don't use that account very much. I mainly use the dog account, and because they share the dog account with my fiance could be crossing liars and thinking that that might of ice is also my fiance's device even on my personal account. I don't know. I don't really know what's going on. But but Facebook when I talked to them, they're like, well, deleting Facebook made it so it it was missing a lot of signals that could have been taken from Facebook. You know, so because of that it just might be serving meeting. Correct ads. Yeah. Now, you point out Taylor stitch targeted ads example in your in your article that. Led to you actually purchasing jacket after it seemed to track you everywhere. This is I'm assuming four you kind of stopped all this track. Looking back on that. Now like on one hand yet it up jacket that I'm sure you you enjoy having do you feel manipulated in any way because you had initially said, no. And I think this probably happens to a lot of us that we don't even realize it, right? We say notice something, but then follows us around. And eventually we give in we ended up with it. But it's kinda manipulative. It's very manipulative, actually. Well, I mean, I guess yes. Or no in that. I mean, honestly, I do still wear the jacket. I like the jacket, you know, I don't regret buying it. But at the end of the day, did I need another jacket. You know, like probably not. And that's probably why said no in the first place. It's like, oh, yet another great jacket in my closet, like I mean, it looks cool and everything, but I could have done without it. You know, I think that ad had not followed me around from scientists site. I'm talking from Facebook to like, the New York Times dot com and all. These other sites until I finally bought this thing and finally the ad stopped showing. You know, stuff like that. I think encourages people to impulse buy or or make them reconsider after they've closed out of the shopping cart things like that. Is that manipulation some people would consider it. I just find it to be really nagging and intrusive. And and I'm I'm living simpler life ever since. I started blocking the trackers, and I do it Facebook in the article I do point out that my spending drops dramatically after I do eat it Facebook and stop seeing these ads. It was something like forty five percent that it drops. So pretty significant amount that I'm saving now. So you also talk about how your friends did not. You didn't lose friends you connect with most of them at the same amount and make even more deeply your your small group, but you had one holdout one friend who only communicates via Facebook messenger. And you said you did actually communicate less with that person. Why can't you convince? That person to get off Facebook messenger. Well, you know, I'm not going to tell people what to do. I frankly, I don't understand why people are just tied to one app. You know, maybe it's just too much for people to have several apps like for messaging, you know, I personally have like six or seven messaging apps because I have to use private messaging for journalism and all that stuff maybe for people that are just like, well, I wanna use one up most of my friends are already on here. Why should I download another one? So, you know, like, I'm not going to tell people that are doing the wrong thing by staying on Facebook. I know that people have their reasons, but yeah, it's it's a bit just pointing that. I lose touch with like that one person. But still we're we're friends, and like if we see each other real life, occasionally, we'll still chat it up, and it's still the same relationship. We always had we just don't have as much small talk in between do they know that you're the personal technology columnist for the New York Times. I mean, your job to tell people what technology to use. Yeah. I mean, but it can get noxious guys. Telling you what to do all the time. So I try to scale it back and someone's pointing out in the chat room, which we should point out that you don't need to have a Facebook account have a Facebook to have Facebook messenger. But that's their way of getting more of your information. I mean, they they want that. So that if you're like, well, I don't use Facebook. But you don't need a messenger. I think technically you need an account, but you can activate the account and still have messenger. But I think technically you still have an account. So there's still ways for them to track like your personal data and volume round. So that's right station, a draw. Yeah. And so you aren't spending all of your your evenings, you know, swiping through reading news feeds feeling miserable about yourself anymore. You actually have time to read books. Right. Like that. That seems like a pretty big net positive. Yeah. It's nice. Because like, I think part of it too. Is that I'm just less distracted? Right. So ever since I deleted Facebook. I don't even really know what I was doing on Facebook. You know, it wasn't really posting much myself. I was just kind of like a parallel to the internet. It was like that tab that was always open. This look at it every now, and then just to see friends or saying and realizing like, oh, what these people are saying it's not that interesting anyway, so I'm in participating less the lesson yet still distracting, the, you know, I started reading lots of Mira commie books. Like, I'm kinda dicta- doubt right now and some different like American short-story collections things like that just trying to get my creative stimulus going. If I wanna start writing creatively on my own. You know, these are all good things. But yeah, I would say I don't even know if that's directly correlated or connected with quitting Facebook. It's just something that happens afterward. And maybe it could have happened without deleting Facebook. But I think there's a good chance that it had something to do with being off the social network. It is I'd like to know something I'd like to meet someone that has read all America me. And also spends a lot of time on. Doesn't doesn't? To be able to now. I don't know if I could like I don't know if I could read one of his books. I'm maybe I'll put that on my to do list to which one would you recommend? Definitely the elephant vanishes. The collection of short stories is really good one. Okay. Short stories. I can handle at one last question. I'm asking this as someone else who tries to turn her dog into pet fluent, sir. Do you ever think if dogs could talk that they might also asked to get off ace book and Instagram? It's funny. Yeah. I mean, definitely there times when like, you know, I wanted to couch you're like in bed with partner like we're scrolling through our phones on like I playing the dog, and then we get distracted. And we pick up your phones, we're doing something like going on Twitter, Instagram, or whatever. And then the dog jumps off the bed or the couch and looks cut mopey. Oh, you're not paying attention to me anymore. So they definitely towel. Right. When you're distracted by screen, and I feel a little bit bad about that. I've been more conscious of it now than I do eat at Facebook. Another good thing. Brian exchan- is lead consumer technology writer at the New York Times where he reviews products and right? For the column Tech's tech fix dedicated to solving tech related problems. Thanks so much for joining us, Brian. Thanks, guys. Take care. Up next. We're gonna talk a little bit about us. The us copyright directive has people very worried about the open web. But I this episode techniques weekly is brought to you by on voi-. It's time to welcome guests to the modern lobby and be ready for everything that comes through and everyone that comes through your front door on boy visitors is an ipad kiosk, we actually have one at the front of the twit studio here that makes workplaces more efficient. So how does on voi- visitors work? Well when visitors arrive they're gonna sign in on the ipad kiosk they enter their details. Sign any legal documents that you might require like, Andy as that's all done right on the ipad on void. Then notifies their hostal at the mill that they're here on voi- will automatically alert, your employees when a guest Rives that's gonna save you time and hassle and save them kind of waiting endlessly wondering when you're gonna walk through the door to greet them. Your employees knows who's coming and win making awkward meetings. Thing of the past. 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Think North Korea's one example, while the EU's copyright directive has now been signed off on and though it's a law for Europe. It's ripple effects are true. Cooling down to all of us. Joining us to talk about the ideas that make up the directive, and what's going on there. How it's changing the potentially the freedom of information that we're so custom to online is Coren McSherry who is the legal director at the electric frontier foundation. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to have you here. Thank you for taking time to join us. So why don't we begin by talking about the directive or specifically the ways in which articles eleven and thirteen seem to have gone sideways? Right. So the copyright reform in the works for many many years now. And most of the directives is fine acidic definer flex reasonable changes. But at the last minute about a year ago, they slipped in articles eleven and thirteen and that changed everything article eleven is referred to as the link tax. Basically requires folks to get a license if they want to share a link to a news article, which who's going to do that. Right. Most of us don't to not how it works. And then even worse article thirteen and article thirteen is basically filtering directive, and it requires any platforms above a certain size above a certain age of the been around for three years. More and you get a certain number of visitors. You have to take responsibility for making sure that no copyrighted content is ever uploaded on any of your platforms. Without permission. That's going to require massive filtering. There's no other way to do it. Yeah. Huge huge changes to the way that these major companies are working they've operated so differently. How I mean how does this net potentially and win. Are we going to see this? In fact, when Wynn does this kind of go into place. Well, so there's one more technical hurdle. The that that they have to pass it has to go through the European Council. But normally once you get to the European Council, everyone just agrees, but nonetheless, a couple of countries could decide to to change their minds, which would be great given. There's hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets in Germany. We may see at least Germany change, it's mind. But if it gets to the European Council, then we moved to the implementation stage. What that basically means is all of the different countries have to figure out how they're going to implement this thing. And so that's where the battles going to turn. Where a lot of folks were very concerned about this are going to have to go country by country and try to make sure that the implementation is as least damaging as possible. So will it be different per country? Like, Kim Germany have different implemented differently than say, France. Well, yes, but the problem is for a company if you operate all over Europe if a given country has passes particularly strict mechanisms you're gonna probably wanna just comply with that across the board as opposed to a complying with the lowest the the simplest and least rigorous mechanism. So that's gonna mean, you're basically you're gonna lean towards maximum filtering. If that's what a what a country like France most likely requires because it's too hard to make sure that he implement. Different approaches across all of the different countries. It's pretty challenging to do that. And remember if you don't do it, right? You're facing a world of legal hurt. And then for users. Let's say users in the US, obviously, the the show that we do here is based in the US is anyone here running the risk of of seeing or noticing any changes to the content that they're used to seeing because of these changes in the EU like it, you know, I mean, obviously, these companies are going to have to make decisions around that. Like, do we just, you know, conform everything to the same standard or do we share differently? But like you're saying, that's that's a huge technology hurdle for them to tackle. Right. Right. And we're for sure to see a lot of pressure to just have one big set of filters to roll the ball. And that's been affected us in the United States as well. Because it's technically can be very challenging expensive for a company to adopt different mechanisms for different. Countries now companies can do that. But it gets expensive. But the other thing that we fears when happen is that which has happened before is that certain groups are gonna come to the United States and say, okay will Europe pass this law. Why don't we do the same thing here in the United States, then we can harmonize around the world legally as well as practically so that's something that we would really not like to see we think it's bad enough in Europe. We certainly don't want to import this bad idea to the United States as well. So we don't wanna like chicken little this guy is falling. But wanna take it as seriously as we need to? I think the F F does a really good job of that the verge compared this to when the when we required passports, when you're absurd to requiring ports to travel between countries are when everyone started required that it didn't have until after World War One before that we could just travel, which you would you say that's an accurate metaphor for what's going on here. Well, I think we're looking at potentially a pretty fundamental change what, you know YouTube, for example, has had a when it calls the content ID filtering mechanism in place for about a decade now and this guy hasn't fallen, but what has happened is. We have ten years of lots and lots of lawful content in taken down in dentist as infringing when it wasn't. So based on that what we know is. That's what's going to continue to happen. Just gonna happen on a broader scale as more and more companies feel like they have to implement the same kinds of systems. And which is why a lot of people raised this question in protested against article thirteen in particular in Europe, because they knew that this was an have a profound impact on online speech. The thing that happens, unfortunately way too often is in the name of stopping copyright infringement. We take down all kinds of non infringing activity as well. And it's interesting. To me because one of the things that happened the prostate pushed it through so quickly, but a number of creators realized the potential problems of this for them for small craters getting their content up, and they realize this wasn't going to be good for them either as so they came out against it. But it was too late. I mean, we're saying not here at our network. I mean, we've been covering apple since twenty for fourteen years and covering it with video for almost as long and just recently, our content has been taken down because we've shown a one or two minute clip of an apple of while we're talking about it, and it's been taken down. And that hasn't happened. Do you think that that they're enforcing these content? Ide-? I mean, there's algorithms I'm sure it's not a person sitting there like deciding to take down. But do you think they're using them more strongly? Yeah. That's precisely the point is they have to rely on mated altars. So only way to do it cost efficiently. Right. If you really if especially if you're under pressure for with a threat of copyright infringement lawsuit of if you're not perfect in taking everything now. So you try to set a filters and filters aren't very good at figuring out things like fear use like when you're including clip and commenting on it. That's a fair use it's legal under US law. But it's really hard for the robots to figure out that. That's actually what's happening as opposed to something. That's interesting. You obviously specialize in I p and intellectual property open access free speech online. Was there a reality? Like, did you take this seriously ahead of time? Did you see this coming would what we thought when you saw that this had had passed these two articles? Well, so we we saw this coming we've been I mean, we've been part of the fight against it over the past year. But as is mentioning one of the. Things that happened is these two terrible articles slipped in kind of the last minute. This thing's been negotiated for years. And it was only just about a year ago that we saw article thirteen eleven get slipped in and then we all geared into action took many people by surprise. And there were many points at which we thought we would be able to stop it. Because so many people were coming out against it like timbers Lee, and lots of created creator groups and all kinds of activists so many people coming out against it. We were pretty hopeful that we could stop this thing. But it just turns out that that we weren't able to do it. And you know, it's it's pretty discouraging. But we're not done. We're not giving up the fight. We're gonna fight it everywhere. We can we're gonna work on the implementation. And if they try to import it here to the United States, we're gonna stop that. Yeah. Absolutely. Won't what do you make the news was news a couple of days ago that the vote order apparently had been swapped which the lead to a number of parliament members placing their votes in the wrong order, which meant they voted in. Incorrectly. Or so they're saying this, of course, they realized discovered after the fact how could that have changed the vote? I guess I I don't know how that actually happens. But is there any way that this could lead to some sort of reversal? Or is it just kind of too late as far as that's concerned. Yeah. I have to say when I got that report. I just found it that I was shocked one thing. I don't think anyone saw coming was that something this momentous could happen because of steak that's crazy. It really really is. And so I know that some of the members of parliament are trying to raise the issue in with like to have a revote given that mistake, but there's a lot of resistance. And I think institutionally that's just not how it works in the European parliament. But it makes feed into the decisions that happened at European Council which again is the final hurdle. So maybe we'll have another shot at this. Really? Appreciate you taking time to talk with us Curren McSherry from the electric frontier foundation that the F F dot org. Thank you so much and have a wonderful afternoon. We appreciate it. Thanks, take care Abbas the Bank. Now, we'll talk about what that means with journalists podcasters and Saifi off. Author Dan more after the break. But first this upset of tech news weekly is brought to you by fresh books. The all in one cloud, accounting solution, helping small business owners succeed spend less time on accounting and more time doing the work you love if you're doing your own accounting. I'm guessing it is the work that you love that you're doing it. So imagine a world in where you're not only saving time each month. 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And if you add tech news weekly, and how did you hear about a section you can receive thirty days free? That's fresh books dot com slash t n w and enter techniques weekly to receive thirty days free. And we Bank fresh books for their support of the show. So did you hear Megan apple had an announcement this Monday, and it was filled with new products? Okay. We'll not actually apple already trickled out there hardware revisions the week before in a rather subdued press. Release a release approach this event was all about creativity and it had star power to boot. So we brought in our own starpower, the one and only Dan more in from clockwise, the rebound the comparable to many podcast A-List, also an author. We'll talk about that in a bit. But welcome to the show, Dan, thanks for having me. Great to have you here. So this was not a short event. Was nearly two hours long. How did the president tation like we're used to Apple's presentations really grabbing you did it is apple grasping for its onstage. Mo-jo at this point. What do you think it's it was a different sort of presentation, and Tim cook certainly said that upfront kind of as a hint to people I think that they shouldn't expect the traditional type of stuff that apple tends to roll out of these types of events. And so we got, you know, the the a list celebrities instead of endless demos and lots of time spent with engineers, and developers I think it was a struggle for them a little bit. It's not something that they're used to doing. And they spent a lot of time talking about TV shows without actually showing anything of the TV shows, which got a lot of people confused and probably will frustrated, and there was some staging issues. Like you said it was to our event like solid half an hour. Forty minutes of that was like lights go down lights come up there. Celebrities on the stage lights, go down again. It's different celebrities on this thing. Yeah. That was it was a little strange for an apple of it. And I'm not quite sure it worked for them. But it really depends on their audience was. Yeah. And you know, the remains to be seen going forward all the stuff that they announced you know, how successful this stuff is. Let's talk a little bit about that. I remember when the apple TV was referred to as Apple's hobby. Now, they have apple TV, plus the services fueled by a one billion dollar per year budget for exclusive content. What did you think of some of the content? That's on offered you think apple can enter this space and compete effectively. I mean, it seems like some of the other players like next Netflix Amazon or a little bit further ahead. But Apple's apple what do you think? Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously apple is new to sort of this producing its content game. They have created a couple of shows here and there, but not things of this caliber. And I think what apple is demonstrating with this is they have the money. They can get name like a list name talent like. JJ Abrahams like Steven Spielberg like Oprah. And they can basically say, hey, we have the ability to bring these people in create brand new original content that you've never seen before with some of the most famous and interesting people in the industry and to me that's their take on it. We're about creativity were about enabling storytellers, and it's a different take from what you see in a lot of the other vendors who are emphasizing either. They're very broad amounts of content. Right. Like, Netflix has hundreds if not a thousand different shows both of their own and other libraries catalog Disney has it's huge I backlog of Star Wars and marvel in their own animation stuff. I think Apple's trying to put its own spin on it and trying to say like, look, we've got the money. We're not we're not scared of spending it we'll put a billion dollars down easy. And we'll see what we can kind of make with that. And we can we can bring the talent toback it up and play in the big leagues. Speaking of money. We don't know how much the service is gonna cost. We know how much news is that's nine ninety nine. But the other things they announced the Cade and. I guess that was we don't know how much those services are going to cost. Why do you think they didn't tell us? I mean, my my guess is that if you add it all up, it would be, you know, a crazy. It'd be seventy dollars a month not counting your monthly payment on your iphone, your, ipad, and your cloud storage. What do you think they didn't give us the price? I think that's a big part of it is in. It's an optics thing to right. Like if they said, we've got this new new service. It's ten dollars a month. And we've got a game service as ten dollars a month. And we've got this TV service, and it's ten dollars month by the end of that you start feeling like wait a second. I gotta really pay thirty forty dollars a month extra. And so I think some of it is that and some of it is since news was ready to go. They were you know, we've got a price for that. We know how much that costs, arcade. And the TV stuff is a little further off. I think that maybe news kind of works as a test balloon. They get to see how that does. Whether people are willing to shell out for it. And then they can sort of base on that like, well, what kind of money can we? Work, and we price our other offerings that it's not gonna feel like we're just nickel and diming people for all these various services. So I I'm sure there's some stuff to get worked out especially in the game and TV stuff where there's a lot more complications in terms of contracts and thing talent and all that stuff. I think they're probably trying to explore where is the rice the right price point for those services. It seemed to me that apple and late breaking news leading up to the event that apple is working really hard right down to the wire to get publishers kind of in place in time for the apple news plus announcement, and you know, obviously, three hundred magazines. I think is is the size of the catalogue, which is pretty impressive for a flat rate ninety nine per month to people care about magazines. Yeah. Willing to magazines are tough. I think that's a reason. So many of them were willing to take that suppose. Fifty fifty split is because they've had a hard time. Converting to digital payment, essentially, some of the newspapers the Washington Post the times Wall Street Journal, which is sort of part of this deal. But none tightly they've had better luck. Converting subscribers into payer until I paying customers magazines. I think have struggled, and there are some in here that I think do better than others the New Yorkers big draw for a lot of people. And I think if you add like one more subscription, essentially than your ten dollar a month fee is still cheaper than buying. You know, the entire the New Yorker every week Entertainment Weekly all that stuff. Like if you read one or two titles. It seems like you could probably make your money back at that point. But it's a it remains to be seen. Just how interested people are in it and Racine. How effective is in terms of the the experience of using it. Whether it's going to be better than they showed off some very fancy stuff. But what I've. Heard is a lot of the stuff that's in there, especially older issues, essentially, just like reading a PDF, which is you know, a little less entertaining on your head. Yeah. But at the same time like I can't wait to get rid of that pile of New Yorker guilt. I have that come just comes to pass. And I can't and but they don't make it easy for you. Subscribe. You know? But I do hope that I mean, if you've ever talked to someone who made their living as a long for magazine journalist like in the heyday like it was just so wonderful like they can you know, I'm talking about people like Susan orlean and stuff that who they could. They would send you to places, and you you could really delve into these long stories, and they just few and fewer outlets for that. So I really do hope that this trickles down to those magazines and then to the journalists. I mean, do we have any idea how they're going to pay journalists? How much even the magazine gets unclear the number? That's been bandied about in a lot cases fifty fifty but it's always more complex than that. There's behind the scenes stuff there's deals in terms of where subscriber data's going apple traditionally very likes to keep a close watch on subscriber data because privacy is obviously a big differentiator for it. Whether this encourages publications to go out and invest more in journalism. I'm kind of skeptical just because so much about about it. And I used to work in the magazine industry so much about it is cutting costs and people I feel like are expensive. And it's not something that a lot of a lot of publications are willing to invest in sadly. Speaking of investing in something apples credit card, which I'm sure you're gonna be getting Megan right? No. I don't know we talked about this on clockwise yesterday highly recommend subscribe to plug clockwise is great episodes. Even when I'm not on it. I I need to correct myself. I know it's not a Bank. I was just joking. But we should what is it? I don't even know what it is. I mean, it's a credit card. I no good. Good question. What what do you think Dana's far as the credit card offering cook, Tim cook says is the biggest change to credit cards and fifty years, which is a bold statement? But, you know, daily cashback feature there's there's some interesting facets to this. What what are your thoughts on it? Yeah. I mean, Tim cook, obviously, given sometimes hyperbole as many of us are. I don't think it's necessarily the biggest revolution. But I think there's a lot of stuff to like your. I'm very interested to see where it pushes the rest of the credit card market. Because if people, you know, consumers have choices in and say, like, oh, well, you know, I really like my iphone really like apple I spend a lot of money at the tune store on the various different apple services. I can get some cash back for that. There might be an appeal there, and there's a brand name recognition that comes along with it of trusted privacy, and all of that and people who are very sick of the credit card industry might find themselves tempted by it as far as the offering itself. I don't think there's really anything new here you compare things like the interest rates and the cashback, and it's it's fairly middling as an offering goes. But it does have the attention of apples detailed design and stuff like that. So for example, using the machine learning to try and narrow down tell you where you're where you're purchases were made. Instead of having those cryptic lines on your credit card statement, a lot of people. Appreciate that a lot of people appreciate the clarity. And since apple doesn't need to make. Money on it. They may find it ability to be a little more liberal and a little more flexible with the kind of things they credit card companies are traditionally not hence, the like less avai reliance on fees and things like that. They simply they don't need that. It's all gravy for them. So I think it opens them up freedom wise to play around with it. And do a lot of stuff that traditional credit card companies are definitely not going to do. And so what about the apple arcade? I know Apple's collected all of these great developers, and they are going to charge some amount of money for a subscription service. But then third these games are exclusive which is that's the thing that is hard to swallow. Like are they like owning these developers? Do you anything about that? Yeah. So the background. It's still it's kind of unclear a lot of what we're hearing is that they're investing in development of the games, which seems kind of almost a a role, but a lot of people are working with our publishers. So it's unclear exactly how that goes. Obviously, the exclusive is a big deal for apple because it means that you if you. Want these games and their county on those being sort of marquee games than you can't get them anywhere else. Or at least not in this form or not on mobile. There's some loopholes in terms of what exactly that means? I think apple has long struggled with its role in gaming, obviously on the MAC side. It was never a powerhouse. And we had like the famous mackerel expo Steve Jobs came in rolled out, this amazing new life changing game for that would be coming out on the mat called halo in net really day off for them in the long run because Microsoft ball bungee like right after that. So I think they've had a success on IOS. But I'm not sure it's something that they have a really felt like they were in control of it seem like something that happened, and they were kind of riding the wave. And so they're trying to be proactive about this. They're trying to say, hey, let's work with developers because we do have a these titles that appeal to people, but it's unclear to me just whether or not that whole subscription service will provide a really good income stream before developers. Like, that's the big question. Here is developers. Get squeezed out. Because of you know, sort of getting lumped in with all these other great titles, or is it does a rising tide lifts all votes. So great. And all, but that's not the real reason why we invited you on here. Sure. Yeah. We invited you on here because you're celebrity pockets. Author you actually have released a new book that Bayern agenda, although he'll never say it on the show Jambi John Slaney, and here is a Jain Norma's fan of your book any tells a little bit about it. It is a Sifi spy thriller set on this world that is essentially one giant corporation kind of a Bank. So I I love Cold War spy thrillers. You go back, and you re John mccarey like tinker tailor soldier spy or anything of that sort of Riecke really enjoy the interplay there. And I decided I wanted to set a story like that in space. So it's a galactic Cold War with its two superpowers trying to battle it out. And in the middle. We have this multi of covered operatives who are trying to try to prevent that Cold War from turning into a shooting war. So it's got some thrills. It's got chases. It's got some political intrigue in spy jinx's. I like to say and. Yeah. Hopefully, all rolls up in an entertaining package, and you can buy it as an e book or I've got my dead tree copy on my on my desk here. So yeah, it's available in fine bookstores everywhere, I was just reading that Cold War, and like, you know, nuclear war that all that stuff is from the past. It's coming back and science fiction because of the time we're living in. Yeah. Right. Good Riley, ride Netwave good, his escape, right? feB completely honest. But anyway, you're a good position. If you're falling way, Dan, Warren, pleasure talking with you were so thrilled to get you on today, where do you want people to go to is their place online where they can find your book. Yeah. In fact, it's what's on Amazon. If you go to my site Demore dot com, you can find links there to Amazon the bookstore. And it is it isn't physical bookstores go into a Barnes and noble or something they should have it or you can ask them to order it. If you want if you want support your local bookstore, which I always advocate is there in audiobook version, there is an audiobook version hits on audible produced by audible itself, right? Congratulations. A lot of fun talking with your Dan, we will take. And here's a quick look at a few of the new products that actually have come out they arrived. I'm going to take them on a little -cation next week. So I'll have more to say after using them. I just got them both yesterday. But I so I got the ipad mini, which I will show off. I've already opened at no fancy on boxing. Oh, so. Alex. So I never had. And I've had many did you have an ipad mini. You did didn't you? I will. I I actually do have an ipad mini. It was Lisa's ipad mini for the longest time. And then I asked to have an ipad. So it's the ipad that I have. I don't use it very often maybe a little bit of music production here and there so I've never had one. And I love the size. Like, it really is the perfect size. Everyone said that. But I I agree with them. So I have some notes here. Let's take a look. So it doesn't work with my new pencil. I have this ample pencil ain't gonna work with that. And that's partly because this one charges on the ipad pro and the other one the old pencil charges in the lightning elegantly charges sticking out the end, of course, the butt of the ipad as. But you can get the new pencil and that will work here. They just work different the two pencils work differently. You this is the new pencil, and it doesn't work on the only the old only old Pence with the new I've had many doesn't make sense. I do not. I mean, your explanation makes sense rationale does not and I had the old pencil, and then I give it back to anything. She sold it and with the old ipad. And so I no longer have it. So I just ordered another one on I ordered it refurbished only eighty five dollars for a pencil. I've never ordered a pencil refurbish do that. But Apple's a different company, so he ever paid eighty five dollars. Well, let me think I did get the pencil or the pen or whatever they call it for the for the the Chromebook pixel, and it was one hundred dollars. Yeah. It was about that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I more than just a pencil. Right. I mean, the reason why another one is because I think this is a great device for taking notes, and for, you know, just writing, and, you know, checking things off to do list that sort of thing. So I that's why ordered it. And right after I ordered it. I realized that the Logitech kran, which is only seventy dollars. I think. And that was the device that came out last year that works with both ipads. So if you got if you got the new I've had and you don't have the old, and you have a new if you have a new ipad pro and you got a new ipad, mini, and you wanna get one pencil get the Logitech Krant. Why would someone have the larger in the smaller ipad one person have an ipad of different sizes? Because maybe this is the device they use for work in the device of the us for reading books or I mean, it's a great. It's great for book. So here's John's book that I want to look at a sample of it. Dan's books are the book the Johns reading Dan's book? Sorry, and you know, it's just looks really great for reading. I mean, it's so much easier to hold like that is what I really like about size is definitely really palm -able hold it with a single hand. Sometimes the ten inch tablets immed- both hands to really work with. And I'm not saying that apple invented this. Because this is the size of kindle, right? But if you want to be, and you know, if you don't want to kindle, it's really nice good for like watching movies it. I may show you what it is. Has a headphone. Have you knows in this this lately? Ten. Yeah. Reviewing. Yeah. Seen them lately. So does ten hours of battery life. I mean, I wish everything was USB. So I'm kinda bummed that this is lightning. But I mean, I certainly have lots of things that are still lightning. So I am including my iphone. So I'm okay with that. Apple something to to update on it. The next time it updates, right? Exactly. Yes. And you know, they did go backwards. Also, it has a home button. So that is something and I miss I did not miss the home button. Actually. So having it back is not that great. So the the form of this ipad is exactly like the last. I had many that was last update in two thousand fifteen I've had many four. So the insights or what difference does the twelve bionic ship and with Apple's neural engine, so it's faster. So I read this book, really fast. If I wanted to done. Oh. Tied seven megapixel front camera. It has a rear camera two camera or self selfie camera. And oh, yeah. The front facing camera seven Mexican mega pixels and. Yeah. So I'm gonna use it this week. I don't have a case for it yet, which is a little bit disturbing. But I know we'll give it to me. How I will surely drop. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I have some some case that will be, you know, not a form fitting case, but some like little sleeve that it can go in. Yeah. I mean, it's nothing revolutionary, but I do like the size, and it's nice that apple finally came around and updated it because I think that's a size that people buy large do like and do want a new version of philosophers and was twenty fifteen. That's quite a lot has changed in apple products. Yeah. Everybody thought it was dead like that. No. I am not even I said like they're not gonna make they're not gonna make another many get over at people do your crosswords on your phone or your ipad and move on. But they did they they said people could buying them. So yeah, exactly bad reason to so that's the I've had many fuller review coming and then. Here are my old air pods. And here are my new air pods while you're new looked more like a box. Yeah. They look more like, okay? So let's let's magically unblocks these air putt. They don't really call them pods to their pod second generation, and you will see that. They look a whole lot like the first generation. In fact, you could confuse them. The only difference is this little charging light right here. And so this I will show you the magic I have a little charger here. So wireless charging you can't really see. Maybe if we turn the lights down. You can see the little red light. That says it's charging. There. It is so yeah, it's and like any kind of wireless charging kind of have to get it right in the right place, not so much. But yeah, you can't just throw it down there. You have to make sure it's right there. So flicks on I could actually charge the air pot case with the galaxy S ten oh, you can charge the air pod case with the galaxy s I should preface this by saying I should be able to charger. Yeah. That's one of the features to wireless power sheriff Vic. Okay. Put it down. What what? Center move it. Isn't that weird? Not everything about an Android is bad, Meghan. Can you even use air pods? The question. But if you're ever out and about and you're about to run out of battery, and I've got the ten on me. And you're like battery I got your back. So your phone is cheap charger can be with wireless power share, which was a feature of the galaxy S. Ten tennis. Sorry. I didn't mean to I didn't mean to Samsung your apple. Totally did. I just flabbergasted. So let me tell you about all the innovations in these air pods. That's it. The case they're exactly the same actually afraid to take them both out because I'm afraid I'm going to make some up, but the one way I could tell that there's two years worth of your wax bed in the old one. So, but they are really the same. You don't have to get the wireless shape. Charging case you can if you just wanna get new pair of air pods. You can get them without the wireless charging case. They're only one hundred sixty dollars without the charge in case and there one hundred ninety nine dollars so two hundred dollars with the wireless charging case, and they also come with a lightening cable, and you can also charge them through lightning. Or is that USB see? Spec- to me. But it will it came with a lightening cable. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's leaving. Yeah. So sorry about that. Yeah. It's definitely lightning. They promise longer talktime. So I haven't actually gotten to try that out. I mean, the best thing about these is how easy they are to set up. So if you have like, if you're if you spend a lot of time pairing bluetooth devices, you know, that can be exasperatingly, and literally you hold these close to your device and the little animation comes up and they pair, and it's amazing also some improvements around Siri integration, right? You don't have to tap them anymore. You just say, hey, s and. You can say hey theory 'cause she never listens. Anyway. See I have an ipad iphone, and these and nothing heard me. So the thing about that is I've been wondering why everyone was so excited about that. Right. Because usually when you have your putt, you're not that far away from your phone. I mean, you can go pretty far away from your phone with these much further than any other bluetooth devices food tooth here. Earphones I'm you can go further. So I get it. If I went downstairs with them on and and said, hey, Siri, and she heard me it hurt me and made made phone call for me. So that is, but I mean, most it's not like it's not like Chee charging inside a phone. Let me know if you wanna borrow my S ten some day, take it for spin. Yeah. That is pretty amazing. I I'm still a little excited about that. The other thing is they didn't change the shape. So I'm not even convinced I'm gonna keep these because they still sort of fall out of my ear. Yeah. So I'm still just kind of amazing that they do they what I'm still just kind of amazing that they look the way that they do. I've always thought that the air pods. Just look a little funky. Like, they look like some long thing is coming out of you. And like I keep expecting. They've been around for a couple of years. Now, I keep expecting for my eyes to get used to it over time because a lot of times like the intendo. We was announced took me a very long time to get used to that name, but eventually got used to that name. But my eyes still aren't used to the look of the air pods in the years. Maybe if I wore them, grow your hair like this. And then they're just true that is sort of the one of the reasons I don't use them as much. It's already falling out can feel it falling when I've used them in the office like the big cans or the sign of don't bother me, I'm working. But if I'm just listening to music like this you'd no one knows dot explains. The many times I've been like, hey, Megan. So hey, Megan bench. She's right. It's true. Factually, they're not they're not falling out. So it's not so bad. They will it's true at when I tried to run with them for sure. But you know, if you if you had the original air pods, and you want to upgrade, the it's, you know, Steph Nally an upgrade if it's something that you use all the time. I mean, I'm reminded of when the first came out, and we talked to Kyle leans for my fix it about it. And he was like these the worst score. So. Like, there's literally nothing nothing. You can do and these two just these work just fine. Because I don't really use them very often. There are a lot of people that use them often. That's the battery life has diminished significantly over time. So yeah. And then when these dial like there's nothing I mean, they just go in a landfill. They can't be reused. The can't mean you can't you can't the apple. I think can't even replace the battery framing put it on your wall. Yeah. Exactly. We'll go in a museum number all the wonderful things you listened through those earphones. Yeah. Yeah. So I will have a longer review of these at some point. All right. All right. Look for that. I'm imagining online hot hand subscribe, and like with dot TV slash H, O T, and as for dot TV slash t n w that's this show techniques weekly. We are done. We record live every Thursday at eleven. Am Pacific, twit dot TV slash live. That's where you can catch the live show. You also be part of the show by emailing us at T, N, W, twit dot, TV and subscribe to our show, you go to twit dot TV slash TM w for that. And follow us on the social media that's Twitter Instagram, and if he tweeted me I met Maggie Maroney at I'm at Jason Howell on Twitter. Thanks, everyone. Who helps us each and every day thanks to Jambi who was in here laughing and making us feel funny. Thanks to burn things dally. Thanks, everyone who helps us each and every week and thanks for watching CNN last week on tech news weekly by everybody.

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Rand Fishkin - Growing An Audience Without Facebook Or Google

The Hustle & Flowchart Podcast

1:20:51 hr | Last month

Rand Fishkin - Growing An Audience Without Facebook Or Google

"With spark toro. Like what we're trying to do is show people wear their audiences pay attention so that they can go reach them directly through those sources right so you go to spark tomorrow and you're like okay. I wanna reach landscape designers in california. What podcast they listened to what youtube channels subscribing to what websites they visit. Who do they fall on. Social accounts so that you can go do whatever kind of advertising you want right. It could be through. The google ad this display network. It could be through facebook. it could be through. Instagram could be direct. One on one. Find this great. Podcast you reach out to the hosts you sponsor it. I love that kind of marketing and advertising. And i i'm hopeful that overtime spark can help or more of that knowledge for people and fill that gap of. Hey if i'm willing to do the work and like actually go out and find it instead of throwing money at these platforms. Can i get a better our ally. This is an intro intro intro intro solely flow chart with four. Hey hey joe alright so in this episode. We're going to be hanging out with a new friend of ours and his name is rand fish skin. He is an absolute bad ass and especially in the data space. And you'll hear why so and a previously lifetime remember brand he actually was the ceo and the co founder of seo mas or now it's referred to as mas to seo's space in all the tools resource community. He was the one that that got that thing going. He's now left that and he started new venture called spark toro. Now this thing is red. It's quickly becoming one of our favorite pieces of software to do a lot of research. And i'm talking to research on which podcast and go on what topics resonate with specific audiences. What content to create around a specific audience. It's super cool. You can literally plug in your url social media handle or someone else's right there in aspire toro and it'll kick out all this all this research using data from a variety of platforms. So it'll tell you exactly. Who are the people. That are listening to your podcast. Or you're checking out your website or maybe it's a competitor website or the podcast. You wanna go on. Who's listening to their show. It gives you a lot of intel literally at click of a button. And what's really cool and you'll hear us talk a lot about spar tour here in the episode. So i'm going to leave it at this is there is a free option if you want to give it a shot and believe its ten uses a month for free said ten searches per month and it resets at the top of the month you can go give it a spin. Over at spark toro dot com. That's s. p. a. r. k. t. o. r. o. dot com. Check it out. You'll hear a lot of implications and reasons why you want to do it in this episode as wanting to let you know there's a free option of course you can pay for more searches but check it out for free definitely worth it and i think you'll you'll fall in love with all that data that you have access to really easily and really quickly in also in this episode. I think you really get fact that there's something interesting happening in google and facebook on their platforms and if you're running ads specifically you're probably noticing higher costs and maybe not as good conversions in less options unless things to actually do so. You can control your ads. Well we break a lot of that down from rand and his perspective. He writes amazing pieces. Way link a lot of that stuff into the show notes so definitely check those out. But you'll just see why it's important to really diversify from just facebook and google. If you're relying on those. I would definitely you know heater warning and listen to this episode. Listen to rand i mean. The guy's a veteran in this space so he's seeing it from a whole new perspective. So that's that's really what it gives us here. And that's why you hear me in the episode later kinda blank out a couple of times because that was my brain. Exploding and attorney all these light bulb moments and i couldn't really get my words out you'll hear more in the banter section at the very end of this episode matenaer gonna rift for probably another wile and we talked about the implications of what we just learned in how we're going to apply it and really what to look out for. If you're if you're in on this episode and you already interested make sure to stay till the very end of this one where we break things down even further from our perspective. And lastly make sure to get. The action guides this episode. We take notes on every single podcast episode. We make so they are free for you right now if you go to flu. Chart group dot com. That's flu chart. Group dot com. They are free for two weeks of this episode. going live. so if you're a little pass that you're out of luck there is a way you can get into the vault of all the different pass notes. It's super gps. Only fifteen bucks a month but either way go to flow chart group dot com. And if you're if you're looking for this episode within two weeks it's there for free if it's a little after you'll still get the opportunity to get the notes but make sure you go to flu. Tar group dot com. Enter your email address because what it is. It's taking to our facebook group our community there where we're hanging out other folks in our the listeners and also some guests are hanging out inside of there but in addition if you plug in your email address we'll make sure you get the action guides as well. Cool cool cool. So that's everything i got here. Let's go head over to the interview and chat with mr rand. Fish skin iran. All right we are live. How you doing good good to be here. John matt thanks for having me. Yeah man. I love the look of your place here too. It feels like you're in a cabin in the woods somewhere. I'm kind of in a cabin in the woods. But in out out back in my office in seattle this little Big oh that's cool little shed which use a space heater to stay warm winter. Right buddy. i'm about to convert shed in my backyard for an office to this. Whole covid lockdown thing. It's tough to work with screaming. Kids and whatnot. Minneapolis can relate. It's great it's great to have the like separation between the house in the shed and my wife is Is a writer. She works from home so to have our own workspaces. Just got ideal. Yeah the little tangent there in the beginning. But i love it so you got introduced to us by lisa. Beyer gotta give a shout out. Because she's just she's amazing so you did an amazing episode over there and we probably will touch on some pretty similar stuff. Because i think it's super important on how to. There's so many people seem reliant on you know the big platforms out there so the facebook's google's probably those two specifically i think it'd be a fascinating conversation to chat about what the issues are around those two from your perspective but also had a leverage them and some other cool things even amazing tool spar. Toro that that taps into those but also other sites. i think Yeah it just. Let's let's go there. I don't know how to start specifically other than a little story on. Yeah 'cause you deepen content marketing in seo so love to hear that will pro. No happy to happy of to fill in sort of my perspective on the like. I think duopoly advertising problem within sort of online advertising marketing space in general right so my my perspective. Yeah i started a company called mas which a lot of folks in the seo and web markings basil will be familiar with was the ceo of that company for a long time Step down left a couple years ago to start this new one spark toro which is market research audience intelligence face and one of the concerns. One of the concerns that i was having in the seo world was basically that google has been doing this in the social media world. Facebook been doing a to both companies have felt like their their growth platt hitting growth plateau in terms of new users can on the platform right for like for the first whatever fifteen years of the internet they could essentially grow by just getting more users but now they're so big and powerful that each incremental new user is essentially like someone that they have to get online rome speaking more rural poorer parts of the world. There's just not a lot of people left. You know all the billions of people. Outside of china are using google and facebook already and so now they're incentive for growth is is essentially to enter new markets in fields and to prevent what was happening which was people getting organic content on facebook clicking on organic links in google now the incentive is google of going. Hey what if instead of letting people click on tripadvisor and kayak and orbits and sky scanner. We made our own google flights and not at the top of the results. And what if we did that in health. And what if we did that in finance if we did that in mortgages what if we do it in whether what if we do it in traffic and travel and maps and And nowadays right you. You see this big problem. I've written about it on sparked a little bit. This this sort of zero clicks search problem you can produce a whole bunch of content rank for it and google doesn't send you any traffic because it's sort of a world where they want to promote the the ads and google and and very little else right now. Granted there's still a ton of traffic to be had in seo. I don't mean to suggest that it's completely gone. It's not it's just that this is the trend right. The trend is going the opposite way that it went the last prior fifteen years facebook. Same story right like we all the mid two thousand four like yeah like us on facebook and then you know we'll we'll build up this big. I'm sure you all like went to the restaurants. I've been to tons of restaurants in san diego and like the menu still says like us on facebook. What's that gonna do for your these days. Exactly what is that gonna do for you. Joe like you go and like whatever it is. You know what's up front. What's up fried chicken place in in little italy that so good crack shack correct. Call go you go like their facebook page and the average facebook page organic reach is currently zero point zero nine percent. Very very yeah. It's really gonna help you out of there. So great one in ten thousand people who likes their facebook page is going to see their their update what what is what and this is. This is like ten years ago. We were complaining when it was falling under ten and eleven percent paid for a thousand times worse. And we're kinda like well. What are you gonna do. Yeah that's interesting. Yeah that you're right. It's a whole different game being played. Right now because. Yeah it's there's not really many people left on the planet to get on this platform interesting. Basically in rich countries and even even of moderately wealthy countries. Google facebook have ninety percent plus penetration. I like they're just. They're just so used to that those That they have to find different revenue streams and and unfortunately they've chosen to use their monopoly power in one sector to unfairly compete in a bunch of others and then the frustrating side is add world too right so you know. Google one of the biggest frustrations that happened recently was was back in september right in. Google paid search accounts for years. Google has pulled organic. You're data like they'll just say not provided it right when they send you a visitor from research they'll say not procured not provide and they claim it's for privacy reasons. It's obviously not because if you pay them with google ads they'll send you they'll tell you what the word is. So there's that like disgusting hypocrisy but it's been around so long like marketers have kind of forgotten complain about it. The new disgusting hypocrisy is google in september poll about twenty seven percent of all the keyword. Data that sends. You had traffic as well so now. They're are hiding which terms and phrases actually sent traffic. And unfortunately it's the ones in the In a lot of the ones in the long tail which means that you can't add those q. See those keywords. And then add them to your google account negative keyword matches and so that your ads don't get shown for those terms and phrases. And what does this mean. This means that everybody's bidding on keywords than they really want to. They're showing up for irrelevant terms and phrases that don't send them high conversion converting traffic. So they're paying google this sort of extra tax. They're bidding up the price of the google ad ecosystem and their quality. Scores are suffering. Because they're showing for irrelevant stuff and they're not getting a high. Click through rates are not getting a conversion rates. That is that is a wrap situation right just terribly facebook. Same story you know. Facebook essentially used the cambridge politica scandal. As a way to pull back on all this data that they would show you in your google your in your facebook account and when you're buying facebook ads and like which pages you can bid against and which hashtags and terms and phrases and topics a lot of that's hidden if you know what to search for what to type in you can still find those topics to advertise against her pages. Evidence gets but how do you know which wants to do. And so of course facebook. It's the same phenomenon where a bunch of people just bid on the same default topics and pages that facebook's put in their interests so everybody's ad prices are driven up our allies going down. You know values going down. But facebook and google can kind of play. Oh yeah where are you going to go to. yeah more. Go advertise on snapchat and being. It's true that's an interesting. I mean it's it's yeah. They had this walled garden. A reason right. They literally control the rules and at the same time. Facebook is out there saying that apple is trying to hurt small businesses. I mean look. I'm no apple fan boy. But my god just the craven hypocrisy and obvious sludge lies in that in that poll like. Oh let's by new york times. The backlash was pretty pretty fast and direct. which which. I'm glad to see but so you know. Part of part of it is. Hey let's make people aware of this problem. Let's have these conversations marketers. Let's make sure that we're doing as much. Add auditing as we possibly can in data collection and using as much information to make our accounts as smart as they can possibly. There's a lot of professionals who specialize in that that's great. That's not actually my world. Even though i you know obviously endorse that dick. That's a really good idea. With spark toro. Like what we're trying to do is show people wear their audiences pay attention so that they can go reach them directly through those sources right so you go to spark toro and you're like okay. I wanna reach whatever landscape designers in california. Podcast they listened to what youtube channels as subscribing to what websites they visit. Who do they fall in social accounts so that you can go do whatever kind of advertising you want right. It could be through google display network. It could be through facebook. it could be through. Instagram could be direct. One on one like you find this. Great podcast you reach out to the host. You sponsor it or you get an introduction to the podcast hosts from lisa buyer. And she's like. Hey you should have so and so on your show awesome. I love that kind of marketing. kind of advertising I'm hopeful that overtime spark toro can help four more of that knowledge for people and fill that gap of. Hey if i'm willing to do the work and like actually go out and find it instead of throwing money at these platforms. Can i get a better. Roi through that sort of direct relationship affiliate world right is obviously super into this. Already savvy using things like similar web or or Buzz buzz sumo or something like that right to find like these are the websites in places that attract the right audience. Can i get an affiliate relationship going with them now. I think it's absolutely fascinating. And i tested out. Quite a bit spark torah with god cast stuff know with the key word and just kind of curious. What kind of podcast. Because that's one of the most common questions we get is like. How do you know what shows to go on. And you know sh sh guests in all my well. This is pretty dang good solution to shortcut all of that and you can get many options and not just podcast. I think it's fascinating because you're kind of you're basically aggregating all of the data from you know this web of of continent or you know all these different platforms out there. That are kind of mining all that data it seems like yours making it very simple to leverage various platforms maybe even those platforms even further in a unique way. But it takes like it's almost like a creative way of thinking a little bit totally right like a lot of people who come to spark toro. I think Have this sort of classic impression of how a q. Were tools going to work right and they think of it like like seo so so instead of you know. My audience describe themselves as landscape designers. They're like okay. I wanna find people or landscape architect. I'm looking for people who want landscaping and it's like no no. No that's not right. That's not like the way to think about the audience. Research insides torah like. You need to. You need to describe the people that you're going. After or give some hashtag that they use or some social account that they follow or some word or phrase that they talk about online on their on their public social profiles. and then yeah the the way that we collect. Data is Especially it Formed by how we saw some really smart agencies and in-house firms do it which was essentially. They take like a list of their customers. So they'd say like we've got like whatever ten thousand of our customers who've who've bought from us we have their email addresses. We can take those email addresses and upload them to clear bid or full-contact right in api like that and get back their twitter accounts in their linked pages and their facebook pages and then if those social accounts are public we can go crawled up and see what words and phrases. These people use to describe themselves. Where do they say they're located. And what hash tags are they using. What who are they following. And all that kinda stuff right. And then they use that data to inform their marketing. Maybe like okay of our ten thousand customers who bought from us in the last year. You know we found thirty seven hundred public social profile matches. And here's what those people pay attention to boom. Look at that. Nineteen percent of them. Listen to this podcast. Or whatever that. Let's go advertise their brizo's smart also. Oh my god. They spent like fifty grand and three engineers for six months to like build that all that infrastructure out so casey my co founder. And i saw that. Yeah yeah thank you for building that. Because it's yeah. I mean just sponsorships like you said i love the whole idea of going direct with someone and yeah. This is the affiliate marketer interest in us the collaborators that you know we're always trying to figure out how can we collaborate with this the fast track way to listen to your audience in some form or maybe it's not your audience. You're breaking into a new niche poco. Look at what. They're talking about the hash tags they're using and all that and now you have this kind of macro and maybe micro picture of that whole industry before even getting into it but now you can just jump right into it with a lot of data on the on the affiliate side. I think a big part of a big part of the challenge. Like i you know i just got a pitch for a partnership today right so someone reached out and they were like. Hey we have this. You know network of websites that we work with and we do a revenue share and would spark torah. Want to be a part of this right. And i'm like that's cool. That's you know it's an interesting idea. But i'm looking at the website network of websites that they've got and i'm like i don't know if these are attracting like my audience so the cool part was i. Took one of the sites plugged it into spark toro and was like okay. Tell me about the people who visit in share and linked to and follow this website and their social account and i was like This is not these are not our customers right so i don't think this is going to be a good like relationship. It's going to be very low. Conversion rate or very low click through rate. Even if so doesn't make sense but maybe there's other sites in the network right go. Oh yeah i really want to be on that one and and we make something happened but that affinity between audience in people you wanna reach seems like a a really constant challenge in in any type of affiliate world right because otherwise you don't want it to be a low low affinity relationship or it's like wasted space well yeah and we recently chatted with Pat flynn and he has this whole book about super fans called super fans. So it's it's if you have these fans i mean. This tool seems like spark tour. Seems like it allows you to shortcut your way in start talking at least to those types of people to your not have to talk to the masses. You're getting a lot more honed in on the specific audience. That's probably going to convert a little better. Yeah it's a lot more ease and buy your stuff on the back end. Yeah i'm curious like just for my own sake. Insanity have you have you folk been discussing a lot about the like death of third party cookies like we have. Somebody actually brought that to my attention on facebook and said you should bring on an expert on the cookies and how that all works and talk to him about it. And so we've been putting feelers out there to try to find who that expert would be. But we haven't. Is that something that you've been talking a lot about that. Maybe we can chat about with you a little bit. I am not. I'm not a super expert on this. But i think i think her name is shana. She yet shawna would inskeep so she writes for a wired and a few other publications. Oh gizmodo here. I can chat you her here. This is actually awesome awesome. Thank you so she basically. I don't know if you saw this like weird thing over the holidays. Did you see that ad with the ass. Lewis pajamas i've heard about it. I didn't i never saw like. They have like the but flap on the classic cabin. Yeah yeah right like. I don't know like a mountain man in a bugs bunny cartoon from the fifties except it's on like a very whatever sacra. This ad was really interesting because it like a on a few websites including a very popular viral l. article in december and then it was like following people around the internet. Just like crazy over the holidays. And so what shoshana. I think had intuited from her research. Was that this this But flat pajama ad was not really trying to get you to buy the pajamas like that was not the goal. The goal is to collect data on as many devices as it possibly could and it was via these like very weird suspicious looking mostly chinese and taiwanese connected networks ad networks that are essentially doing some form of browser fingerprinting right so they're trying to identify your device with all of its different qualities and then store that data and every website that you visited and pages that you visit and that kind of thing so that it can tie your device to your activity with the goal of in the future selling that data to advertisers or maybe geopolitical players unclear who knows what might be very very mysterious and weird but fascinating totally fascinating and then there's also this like well. Is that the future of how advertising gets done right. Like is it. Is it based on behavior. That's fingerprinted by networks. That operate of california privacy laws and outside of gdp are and all this kind of stuff and then like okay for those of us who are in content or alder affiliate world like what. What does this mean. Do we have to go through these. Really sketchy potentially politically affiliated. Hey you don't want to get caught up in this whole thing privacy in that. Yeah not that just sounds like it's gonna be messy in bad but who knows i mean. Yeah it's a hole in maybe it's old paradigm different paradigms way of thinking that we have to approach how to attract relevant people to the arts. I know the very good question. Those the unintended consequences of good intentions like good intention fire. Foxes like hey third party cookies. There's a lot of privacy issues with those. Let's block does not realizing wait a minute. What what will that lead to like How will that impact at world and privacy world you know and now safari rates apple of was going to do this as well. And that was facebook's get big complaint with them right. I think basically you like pull up the facebook app on your apple device and you would have to like you would automatically opt you out of facebook's data collection of those third party cookies and you'd have to opt in and so facebook was pissed about this and apple was like no not going to budge. Your yeah definitely. I mean i would think the opt in action is probably going to be a big component of a lot of you know whatever the fingerprinting or tracking is gonna look like in the future b but. Yeah maybe there's a whole thinking of there it's like okay. How do we get someone to agree to that. Then and yeah. So someone's gonna crack the code. But i think we have to talk to your friend. Thanks so i don't know shoshana personally but I am friends friendly with non dini. Johnny who is one of the co founders of sleeping giants and and now Check my ads in. She on our connected. So i'd be happy to reach out. Make a connection. I would love to listen to that. Podcast myself on a no. 'cause going on i read her articles and was still like what who for. What reason you all the questions are happening. We'll start with the article but yeah if you can make that happen. Thank you yeah. We'll make an amazing episode. For all of us to indulge in mean all of this to me sounds like a good strategy would be to focus on email list building right if because that's that's what you have control of. Stop thinking of it in terms of trying to pixel as many people as possible because that's just becoming less valuable. Yeah it's becoming less. Valuable is becoming more more risk exposure Both on legal side and privacy scandal side. It i am one hundred percent with you at like. i can't. i cannot understand the years that we've spent you know getting people to be like you know subscribe to my twitter subscribed to my facebook subscribed by linked in subscribed to buy tiktok subscribed to my youtube. I understand that those are like places where you can earn attention but to my mind. That's the secondary goal and the primary goal is to get people to your website in your email list right because though that's the one channel you always get to own and control and email open rates. Zero point zero nine percents facebook page exposure. Email open rates are still twenty. One percent on average right hasn't changed in two decades and it can only get better through segmentation and giving more of what the people want. So that's kind of the next evolution. It's kind of this whole thing of ice. Be partners with a guy named shy years and years ago but he was his big in the platform like a to platform and take it into space like basically email something you can control. That is kind of baked in. My mind is always like okay. There's a bunch of platforms out there and like you said ran like yes you a following on there and that's great. Yeah that's kind of where maybe starts but don't leave them. They're like figure out how to pull them off somehow. And take control of the folks that are actually attaching to you. That's that's same with the podcast here. I called action facebook group. But also you're gonna get added to the list if you choose. Yeah i mean it got us so so big have control. I would honestly like you know. It's not that facebook doesn't get an engagement. It absolutely dennis rate and facebook groups can get a lot of engagement a lot of discussion you know. You're sort of in the stream with everyone else but if it were me i'd take if it was a choice between like one hundred new. Facebook likes one email address. And we'll take that one email sure until that to the cracks check and san diego based facebook like video. I'm just saying you get the chicken sandwich in your email. And maybe you know whatever you're not going to click on it. Maybe you're not gonna click through. I guarantee you will see it versus. Yeah that showing up in someone stream. Just it's just not gonna happen i think. Instagram is the This is data from rival. iq which Does that a really nice like their software that operates across a bunch of social platforms on behalf of brands. Right so they have. They have all this data about brands web pages and or social pages and they perform and every year. They released a report. That's like here's the average engagement that social brands Brands got on social. And i think last year. I was the zero point zero nine percent for facebook. Want to say it was like zero point. Zero five percent for twitter. So you know really really low for for Public company twitter pages. Twitter accounts and these are averages rate. Or median so some people are doing really well with with twitter. Facebook or whatever but instagram was the highest performing at two point two percent so like it's not that that's not know reach. That is something. I understand why small businesses are thinking especially ones. That are good at visuals are thinking instagram. I say anytime you are investing in instagram facebook. Twitter reddit linked in youtube medium. I don't care what it is. Why not also put that on your own website. Also make sure that the call to action is back to your site and onto your email list. You really got nothing to lose right. No well so the next thing. I want to talk by sort of a little bit of a pivot from what we're talking about but Coming back around to spark toro so you can go on spark tomorrow and you can you. You can essentially uploaded email list and will sort of tell you the affinities of the people on your list. You you could find okay. Are this audience. Listen to these podcasts. These blog posts these magazines. That sort of thing once you grab that data. Do you have any best practices for actually getting in touch with the people who run the podcast blog. The magazine like what sort of advice would you give people who after they get this data. Yeah yeah great question. Great question so first off just one quick thing you can upload a custom audience to spark toro But not email addresses gotcha. Okay it's got to be the social accounts so again okay. We we recommend people use clear bit or full-contact. They've jumped through all the like california privacy laws around connecting those up. We have not done that. Smart leo we. Don't deal with email address. Privacy data all that kind of stuff. Gotcha new we do support. So if you if you send a list of email addresses through clear bit through full-contact get the social your else and upload that to us we will do that customhouse or the super simple way to do this in sparked toro is just take your brands. Social handle and analyze that makes sense. Oftentimes like this is not to dissuade anyone from buying the more expensive package. Where the custom upload thing but like you can a lotta times just run you know whatever. It is at crack shack into spark toro Like my audience follows the social account at shack. That will be really really similar to uploading thousand social your l.'s. From your email list data both are possible when you do that and you sort of get these analyses or when you analyze audience and your like. Those are the podcastone reach out to those a youtube channels. I wanna talk to. That's the publication. Reach want to sponsor that website. I want to pitch a guest editorial for this content site at center center. I do have a couple of advice there so one is that cold. Outreach is really difficult to get answers. I mean you guys noticed you reach out to hello people at wired dot com. I would like to write about seo affiliate marketing for you. Think delayed spam report spam block address. I mean we see it on the flip side just having this podcast with people reaching out to be on the show too so we have a whole list of what not to do with the outreach. We're trying to get on our show. I'm imperfect so for those pitch is my two bits of advice. Are one don't cold outreach. Without first engaging on social for example you have a few conversations on instagram and twitter link in and you promote that person you know that journalists work from wired and then you send them an email and it's like hey it was fun chatting about like that piece you wrote last week or a couple of weeks ago and like. I'm i'm rand. I'm at ran fish on twitter. You probably saw me in your feed. You will almost always get a response not saying it will always be positive. I'm not saying you're always gonna but you'll break through because you form that connection somewhere else. I so that that is a piece of advice. One piece of advice to get an intro right like we were talking about. Lisa introducing us. There is no better way to make sure that you get a response. And the connection than an intro. I would say i don't know what it is. Maybe it's whatever if cold outreach works how one out of a hundred times you know a social connection i may be works. Ten out of one hundred times and a warm intro from someone who's known both parties. He's like seventy out of one hundred and that's experience. Yeah yeah just huge. So that's that's a good tips. And i mean with. I'm curious with all the data to that you have it sparked touro. I'm sure there's probably some ways to you or build content on the back of that like. Are there any suggestions on how that would look like maybe your own content and also some guests content as well. I mean one of the really nice things that you can do. And some of the folks So some of the folks who actually invite people to try and participate in their podcast so we have a few podcasters who used mark toro to find their guests right because essentially their goal is i want to reach this audience with my podcast video series my content series so let me invite on the people who already reached that group because they will bring that audience with them and so one of the ways that tournament was a lemon pie was one of one of those guys was using smarter and essentially the pitch was. Hey i we are already followed by eighteen percent of your audience right so. There's a lot of affinity that already exists. Here let's do something together. I think that's actually a great pitch right to say you know smashing magazine. I saw that Whatever ten percent of the people who follow you on social have the title creative director. And i'm creative director at this company. That's the audience that i speak to rate for. I think i could do a really good guess. Peace free right and now it's sort of like. Oh okay i see. You're bringing data to this conversation about why we have audience affinity with the topic. You're bringing to me. It's an easier sell to say. I've never seen a single pitch to us with data there and if it were i would be very intrigued. W like a where. I wanted to learn more and be. Yeah what your homework. Somehow i think this is the way to stand out from. The crowd is to work harder and smarter than them and the crowd right now for better or worse is not not doing this stuff. A lot of push button happening especially in the pitch side of things to won't need any software names that allow this to be very easy but it's yeah unfortunately for a lot of people but in in in terms of just thinking the content general should be a lot. I mean in what i was thinking. Actually when you said the data point that's perfect way to probably get sponsors and pitch you know. Start putting out their pitches to folks to Get a sponsorship. At least on your podcast you could probably earn. I'm kind of thinking of all that data. I don't have a perfect statement right now. Because i'm like when i hear all of this. My brain goes wild. When i'm like okay. Randy gave us a frigging bucket of information. Data like how can we creatively use this thing. Now that's where my brain goes like it lights up and probably tonight. I'll have fifty questions for you madam. Defer to you on. I look for i look toward the friday night deluge. No i won't do that. But i'll give it to matt. Oh it's going to be a fascinating night anyway. I don't know if you have seen. The internet is melting down right now. Because no i've not facebook facebook and twitter both announced they're going to permanently suspend trump. Oh i saw that. It's not just like. I don't know maybe five minutes after we started our conversation. Really why it. What's going on like all my tabs. Oh yeah fascinating place here for now. I mean as long as i'm not on a flight back from washington dc today. I'm happy it's true. Getting curious on the advertising side is. I know we touched on. You wrote this article. I mean at the time this episode a couple days ago a few days ago. So you know there's facebook and google ads. I mean we use both of them. You're are a lot more than i do. See the data Are there what are your thoughts around that. And how these are changing with everything you described with facebook and google and how they're kinda reason rates on every like. Are there certain ways to advertise on there that you would suggest or yeah i mean look i think plenty of people can earn decent rely on those platforms. I don't mean to suggest that that's possible. But the i think the vast majority of advertisers are unsophisticated. Right small and medium businesses some agencies who are incentive because they get a percentage ad spend some folks were either some combination of like new to the platform or just Sort of follow. Google facebook suggested path. I mean not. I'm sure you've seen this. Ray like what i hadn't been in facebook ads for a little while i went back in there. Maybe a couple of months ago and was like what is this. The recommendation for what you should do is so broad untargeted and just really struck me as very abusive of a of an advertiser who might not have a lot of money needs to earn our ally. Like if you don't know what you're doing and how things sort of used to operate and how they should how you can still like tweet the system. If you know enough to get to work for you. I feel really bad for those folks right. And they're they're the ones who need who need it. The worst like the big companies. The big agencies. They're going to be fine. They've got the dollars to blow anyway. So that bothers me a lot and then i think i'm not sure exactly what to call this problem. I've heard some people describe it as the ads. Slurry which is essentially like you know you take a meat slurry right would be you know. Oh there's a bunch of good parts of the cow right and then a bunch of lake older cow cow parts and we're just you know what it's ground beef. We made it a product. Yeah we we turn it into a product. And i mean thankfully you know. Usda agricultural requirements meant that ground beef with the exception of taco bell. Pretty good baseline like decent. You can you're going to survive but in the ad slurry. It's it's very very odd right. 'cause google will take youtube advertising's great example of this right so you advertise on youtube and you basically have to opt out of everything that you don't want rather than opting into things that you do want and so google. Can you send your youtube ads to misinformation and disinformation and conspiracy theory rabbit holes in nyc flatter madness. And you know what are like people who are against al dente pasta your pasta. So yes unacceptable. What do we talk your your advertising on a channel that's recommending that you make spongy pasta like get at it a little little texture. There come on. I need some right italian. Oh it is very frustrating for an advertiser to be facing that sort of like my ads. Go in plenty of good places some pretty bad places and some really terrible places that i don't want him to be at all and i don't have fine tuned controls in fact i don't even see the bad places that my dad is in until they've been there and then i can go you opt out of them. Unless i'm savvy enough to like work with an auditing firm whose assembled a list of bad places already for me from all their other campaigns and like all money very right. that's this they're throwing good and bad together. You're getting mystery meat in terms of where you're you're advertising's happening you know. Your ad shows up in the google display network on the washington post the new york times and wired dot com great great great great and then it shows up on like let's go storm the capital on tuesday. Oh gosh i wonder if my true on the day as we're recording this this week right there was like the you know all these all these websites in places where folks were talking about like. Hey we're gonna you know. Get our gear and like go storm the capital and and some wise folks on twitter were pointing out that like oh calm and bmw and Airbnb were sponsoring those posts those videos those channels those websites annoyingly. No they were right. It's not like you know. It's sort of their fault for not auditing their ads but also google showing them that data proactively hell now right then think about like i small business owner who i know facebook right now or at least at the beginning of cove cohen. Hard on sign up for sports business at facebookcom. And i think you i signed like that's not good. They're fishing in up are they're trying to grow that pau now stock full of fish so they can do exactly what they're saying right now. They have control and businesses like. I don't know crack shack. We'll just use example. I hope they have a solid agency or someone helping out but like most of them don't they don't know the slurry and what they're getting into. Yeah i mean. It's not as bad on facebook but facebook. They've got the you know There's like a check box where it's automatically going to all placements right and you can go in and really you should go in there and select placements you wanted on but by default somebody who's just sitting up at add they're gonna add just put everywhere. Facebook will allow it right and a lot of times that might be like in the middle of somebody's text message conversation on facebook or smack dab in the middle of a longer video that they're trying to watch and those videos don't really get people to take action because they're not in a place where people are going to want to take action from them so you really have to go in and sort of select your placements but if you're just getting in there for the first time since i add facebook is not going to do very right by you. Yeah yeah and i. I mean i think there's if i saw correctly i can't remember. It was an or just a notification in the ad center on facebook. But they like notify you. If you've previously check that box when they update 'cause they wanna like they want you to check the just let us show you everywhere and so you know they keep nudging google same thing right on both display and youtube like they keep nudging the hey you should let us programmatic control it. Because you're ads. Might not be being seen by as many people as they could be. Yeah so that that slurry problem is is really messy it to be fair facebook and google knock great about this at all those third parties that make up the other thirty ish. Thirty five percent of the display ad market are even worse are so much worse in terms of platforms. I todd like the out brains of the world and out brain to bullet not not great by any means. There's a whole bunch of third was one of them. A god okada or no sorry what is this citrus. The citrus ads platform. I saw some people like talking about what was showing up in there. And i was like. Oh man this sounds real weird. And they're in like they're on. They're mostly focused on like the the which mccaw grocery world ask strange on which we call it. There's a few that are quite good because they're just incredibly direct right. so there's there's few ad exchanges. I think sell ads is one. Yeah yeah they've been around for a while thank. Yeah they've been around for a long time and buy sell ads as i understand. It is basically. There's no like personalization cookie system you you basically say. Do you want to appear on. This site will then go through buy sell ads and your sponsorship will appear on that site in my career how much it costs. I like that motto. I know old school again. Unaffiliated kinda like the affiliate marketing model. Where you you reach out to directly you say hey. I think we've got real audience affinity here. Let's let's do some business development. It's kinda i mean. It's a little bit nineteen fifties advertising in terms of sophistication. But it works. That's the thing if you use it top of funnel a if if we're using those kind of terms like hey you can build an audience off of that and then do your follow up magical stuff after that but again within your control. Ideally exactly buy-sell adds definitely. Has its own issues as well. 'cause you get people on that site who will. They'll sell advertising on a website. And then they buy junk traffic to their websites that they can engram. They're cpm's there's always but at least you get to see the website and then me like. Is this the website. I wanna be on and yeah you can do some due diligence before you buy ads and prevent that but there are a lot of bad actors on there is well. Yeah do you do you. Folks use similar web for some of that lake analysis. A little bit here and there. Yeah certain occasions win win with. We don't use it enough though. I guess he like one of the things that you know one of the things that people use toro for which which i sort of also like similar web for is the people who visit axe also visit That's similar web even in the free version. Right you can just go in and type in whatever outdoor climbing dot com. And it's like. Oh yeah. Let's outside online is in there and like rock climbing magazine as well visited and so is rei or patagonia. And i liked that ability to just see. Where else is that traffic going up. And it's kinda like fern affiliate product for in our case. It's typically a marketing software is what will promote so we can plug in a competitor or more. Maybe that software itself. If there's enough traffic or people talking about it then you can get all sorts of interesting data. I'm sure this is where my brain's going to go wild tonight later. I'll tell you later. This is yeah. it's it's sort of like in the search marketing world right. A lot of folks will use something. Like mas my old company or a troughs or sem rush or something like that and they'll plugging a keyword phrase that they know is sending them good traffic. It's google paid search or whatever and then try and find other words and phrases that though that audience also uses or that are also in related so that they can target you know similar sorts of folks and i think i think that methodologies smart i think that's a that's a great way to go it's also you know it's sort of the anti slurry like it's a very targeted approach. Yeah and i feel like if you have your best foot forward that way and like we say if you have a marketing engine behind that somehow that you can control then it's probably the best way you can approach kind of situation right now online and really to speak to that target avatar from day one. Ideally yeah well to wrap it up. I don't know if we have enough time for this was going to ask. Is there anything in two thousand twenty one and seo world on the organic side that you would stay like all right. Pay attention to this. Or maybe there's an article you can direct us to that. We I haven't written it yet. But i have a prediction that i think the last couple years and the next couple of years. There's going to be a lot less a lot. Less of google's ranking algorithm using links themselves to rank stuff and a lot more of them using inferred connections inferred links right so essentially you know oh well ran fish. Skin from spark torah went on joe's podcast and talked about this thing. And there's no you know. Follow -able link that google's crawler can see between the two but dimension of spark toro and like around the words of market research on intelligence tells google that maybe they should rank spark toro's website higher for these sorts of terms and phrases and if that connection happens lots they get the inference of between the content and the more authoritative and important. Well listen to the podcast is the more that counts. So i think we're gonna see a lot less of the like to call that old school pure domain authority link equity pay drink that kind of stuff and a lot. More of a an inferred intelligence connection that that the search engine forms between phrases concepts bronze and entities websites. Yeah i mean it just seems like that's how that's how machine learning works like machine. Learning is designed to optimize to an outcome. And it'll take any input confined that optimizes better to that outcome. I think that's the outcome that that predicts these signals. Yeah yeah i mean it makes sense. It'll it'll sort of help the sort of gaming of the system that everybody's done for so long with seo. And i mean theoretically. I'm sure people will find new ways to game the new systems and with that in mind. What advice would you give. People assuming that is the direction things are going. How should people adjust their content to to take that into account. Yeah i would be. I would be thinking about big investments in digital pr right so like if you if you have a brand and you can get that brand talked about in places where your customers pay attention. You can get the brand connection to be seen by google and you can kind of not care about the link and still get the value of the link in the in the rankings. And at the same time you're speaking directly to your customers and potential customers so you're probably driving up conversion rates and bringing people to your site and at the same time you are also getting brand awareness which means that when people search we know this from research when people search for whatever some some random thing when. I searched for climbing shoes if i see. Rei and that's a brand. That i know that. I like and i trust them. And whatever i heard the founder talking about great mission on this podcast. I was listening to your on youtube channel and i saw this nice press piece about the meeting or types. I'm going to be more likely to click them regardless of their if they're in position one And the other thing. We know about google behavior right now. Is you know if your position for five and more people start clicking on you than are clicking on the people above you you will quickly rise like google will be like whoa. Whoa what's going on here. The people all like are put them with the top. Yeah yeah it's interesting. I like this. I'm just seeing this kind of map. I mean there's a guy We actually connect with and he had runs us emoji kind of his intelligence. Where like peers up. If you plug in keyword sparked touro it'll tell you what kind of emojis and hashtags and using data science on. Hello woolsey. i feel like it's pretty interesting. Some other stuff too right. Well if you go to wolf dot. It actually shows this interesting map. And it's all for show. He was telling us. Essentially arjun is is the founder's name a book. That's what i'm picturing happening. In the background of google he is this like personalized search. Engine rankings depending on whatever you're surging but it's like you said says web of things and it's like google crawling things like podcast which i've heard is happening. But i don't think they data out but that could be feeding that that web kind of in the background. It's gotta happen if it's happening. And all these other industries win. It happened in google and everywhere else really interesting perspective. Thank rand sleep tonight on. Podcast feels like being over these really super fun but you gotta pay the consequences sometimes all right so we'll get you out of here man me talking touro get some free usages out of it so until the folks that so it wasn't like we were so the vast majority of folks use bark toro. Just use the forever free account which is ten searches a month. You can run. See if it's valuable for you do a bunch of research probably find a lot of these opportunities Without paying a thing all you gotta do is just run a search it alaska for email address. You confirm that it'll give you the data and then it refreshes every month so yeah have added stab at it. We're we're pretty. We're very new. Company launched in april last year. It's just me and a co founder. My co-founder casey. So we'd love to hear from people who were trying it out whether they found it valuable what they used it for. That sorta stuff is super useful for us and you can drop me a line. Anytime rand sparked taro dot com very cool. And you've got the book lawson founder as well sir. we should check that out There it is anywhere else. Wanna point people after listening to this episode short. Yes so if you if you want to learn more about that Conversation we were having read the online advertising and the ad slurry and all of that on the spark toro blog. I just wrote a piece gotten some good attention called the state of online advertising. Something rotten in the state of online advertising in that's the spark dot com slash blog. And we'll make sure it's linked up as well sure. Iran appreciate it man than interesting conversation with you guys. I really appreciate you having me. Please let me know if i can make some introductions to some other interesting folks on this front have agreed on all right. You take care all right matt. The post recording has started. Yeah we already twenty minutes in your debrief. I know it's funny we We hit stop after talking with rand. And then when and talk for another fifteen minutes about like some of our big takeaways in light that thoughts from this show and went wait. This is the part we're supposed to be recorded isn't it. So let's recap some of this stuff because we can riff on this again on your new pet but that thing. Tell me what to do. Well what we were talking about. Matt night where this episode was in. This is where i yeah. I kind of stumbled a little bit to find my words because my brain was like there's a big perspective change on many fronts and from a guy who's deepen their year on the research would also hands on the data. And that's what i think is most fascinating. That's what we were just riffing on Yeah i mean as he was explaining this tool there was times where i was just sitting here going shit. I could use it for this and i can use it for this and i can use it for this and i can use it for this. I know you. And i while we were on this call like our wheels. Were starting to spin on mike. This spark toro tool and before we hit record before we even talked rand. You and i were sitting out front like reviewing our notes and what we wanted to go over on this thing. And i was going. You know. there's always a fine line between this becoming just like a giant promotion for the person's product and being valuable content or the listener kind of whenever we bring on somebody that's like a software developer. They've got a new course coming out or a new book coming out. I'm just like is this going to be a giant sales pitch for this thing. It's even worse when we really liked the too old because then we just keep bringing the pockets guests in rand included. Never wants to pitch their stuff. Yeah so if you hear that it's usually us yeah for real. I'd say there's maybe one or two guests ever who you could tell dot on and we're like shamelessly like i am just going to pitch my shit right but Most guests who have software and stuff when we talked to them before the call there like if my software comes up in conversation cool. If it doesn't cool. I don't care and ran was very much like that definitely but you know i was very concerned that we would get on here and start going on. You can do with it. You could do this with it. You could do this with it. And it would just sound like he was selling it and we were selling it but at the end of the day you use it for free so all the advice that was given on this podcast and all the taxes we talked about. You don't need to pay for the damn tool to go do it. I get it. Yeah good go test it out and and some of the stuff that matinee talking about. So i wanna try to rewind just talking about because i think it's super cool so perspective changes across the board. I think That's a big topic. I think right before that we were talking about spar torah a little bit more about Using it to get on other podcasts. Yeah you you can easily displayed in whatever you want to plug in really. There's multiple things and then searched the podcast. What they're listening to. We'll go bam naked work down the list and see like your social media following right so we've got Following on facebook following instagram we can go in and plug in one of these social media accounts it will look at all the people that are following us and say people that follow you They read this magazine. They listen to these podcasts. They read these blogs. It basically will tell you all of the places that they hang out and all of the publications they read and all the content that they consume in that world and now they just made you. That tool just made you a list of okay. These are the podcast. I should try to get on. These are the publications. I should try to contribute articles to these are the blogs. Try to post on right and then when you reverse that from a podcasters standpoint right we can go and see. These are the influencers that those people follow these are. The these are the podcasters they follow. These are the publications. They follow will now. We also got a list of ideal guests bring on our show because we now know who our audience is paying attention to. Let's bring those people over and say look you're paying attention to this person so let us help you pay more attention to this person. This actually makes my mind feel a little better and probably a realization recently. And i told you is that like a lot of the Every single person we select is is very specific. I it's not like we're willy nilly bringing people on the show because we do get pitched on even sort of just add to that point you and i even sometimes debate on the. I'm just like. I don't think that's a good fit your whether good fit because of this had literally have like debates and conversations over which guests should be allowed to come on and which ones should ask so. We're not just. They seem cool. Let's bring him exactly. And the thing is a couple of weeks ago couple of fridays ago. And and i told you about this is like it's actually a lot of weight on our shoulders in a good way. I like it. But i didn't realize it really is. Yeah each person we bring onto. This podcast is now going to deliver a perspective in strategy is like rand did here and now you is. The listener are probably going to take some of this at least the senior. mind now. so you're thinking about it and you're going to do an action that's going to affect your life. Your family's lives customers life. Those customers family is in their customers lies. And i don't know it's all like it. Of course you can do like your product that you might have has. The same trip trickle effect everybody has ripple effect but then i started thinking about our podcast. This action for thinking the one thing going back to that book. The one thing is picking the best guest for you who's listening. Yep because we have a frigging duty to stand by you because if we were just willy nilly bringing the random pitch that was automatically sent to us and be like. Oh bob looks pretty cool. He has a great book on self help. He's like heart based leader. Joe i mean nothing against. I don't know what that means but But that is where they say. They're a heart based leader. I mean i'm going to say. I think we've said on his altro before it's late. Last time i checked my heart is feeling fairly in the middle is to lead a decent life. I'm a heart base leader bro. There you go. You are listening. But the point matter is like damn. There's a big responsibility that we have in this podcast right here. And even you listening. You have a big responsibility. Whatever your leader in and this tool spurt thorough. We'll make it even easier for us in probably make it a lot more effective as a result for everyone after that selection of the guests. That was an interesting. No and and You know future pacing a little bit we. We've got some just insane guests lined up. That are probably names that a lot of people may not have heard of. But they're the ones that are operating underground. That are doing insane things. But maybe aren't so public about the insane things. They're doing people for instance that we've been on clubhouse at matt wolf at joe. Fear shameless shameless. Don't want to go back to the discussion with rand Yeah all the perspective changes now right like because we were talking a lot about the platforms remember like google and like the whole web thing and then we were talking about facebook and how they're it kind of feels like pandering a little bit too small business owners on tv. Yeah that's what you're talking about where we were talking about the tv ads. We've been seeing lately. Yeah by facebook. But i mean just other companies in general to where it feels like. They're sort of pandering to the emotions more so than they are like art Yeah like i i. I see those those ads. Don't feel like oh they're on my side. No i see those ads and go fucking pandering to us trying to like pull on our emotions so that we bond with their company more. Fuck you try. It just makes me feel icky when i see things all. That's literally what they're doing because they know business owners. A lot of them are in a very tough spot. Probably the toughest spot you've been in your whole life. Yeah and now you see this ad from a trusted platform facebook. Oh yeah maybe. I should run facebook. Ads at business at facebookcom. Okay cool get in there. That's mine run some ads. Good luck. you're probably going to have to burn thousands of dollars to figure it out and then like rand would saying now. You're going to have to be confined within their garden their walled garden and pay their base book tax and their ads slurry. And you're not gonna know what you're looking at in this big dashboard most likely unless you hire an agency or go through a course that course is probably not really going to teach you how to think and think of ads in the probably stay click. This was redacting more and more of this information. Google is pulling it away from the end users eyeballs. So a lot of the information we used to have access to we. Don't write our whole like. Pg traffic strategy. A lot of the strategy is through using negative keywords finding keywords people are searching but in the keywords that people are searching that aren't buyer intent a negative ing out negative is that order negative being out. Those keywords was a big part of our traffic strategy. And you know from in our account. We're still able to do that. But it does. Seem like they're giving us less and less information and data and it's only a matter of time before i feel like we're google and facebook one ago is they want to get to a point where you could plug in a url to your website. And they'll go and just create ads and figure out where the ads should be positioned for you already. Third party bunch of them that are already starting to at least create the ad copy for you. east on all this data. Kind of like sparked tour does for you know giving you the data. I almost feel sorry for some of those companies. Because if you're building with your bootstrapping that kind of technology that does that for you. That creates these automated ads and automated copy for you. We'll google has infinitely more money and infinitely more engineers. Facebook has infinitely more money and infinitely more engineers. You're going to get knocked off. Yeah it's going to happen facebook. Lose yourself trying to get more autonomous with their ads. they're trying to get to a point. Where you plug in your website and they go cool. We're gonna go calculate what ad is going to work best. We're going go build some split tests for you and we're going to hone in on the advertisement that works the best for you right. That's where it's going to eventually be so of these companies that are building it and bootstrapping the technology themselves. You know that's awesome the best. I think you can hope for though is to get acquired by a google or a facebook do and i think rand would suggest that to in his In his book the lost and founder and founder. I'm like i know. I'm going to screw it up so i'm not gonna say until i read it. Yeah lost and founder one of his chapters. I read his like actually sit right here. Should you sell your startup early. Yes probably so. Yeah advice to any company. That's building a facebook or google ad on type thing or you know optimize. I mean not saying this perfect suggestion but like be be aware of this at least yeah. Yeah i always love it when the titles of a chapter basically gives me the answer to that chapter. I was thinking that too very clear like it though. It makes it easy to jump to what you need. Yeah yeah and then you know. And the reason i bring that up is like i think with facebook right now and this is something else we were talking before we hit record with facebook and google right. Now there's a pretty expensive learning curve to use those platforms right like the first time you use facebook. We've never run an ad before the first time you get in there. Your first ads probably going to lose money like you have to be extremely lucky for your first. Add to not lose money. Same with google ads google. They give away to get people on google. Because they know you're just going to give that hundred dollars back to them. They're not spending that money really like they're giving you one hundred dollars and you're gonna lose that hundred dollars on their platform. That's we were saying. It's like when you go to vegas and they give you like. Hey you get fifty free spins and this coup this alcoholic beverage drink. It's like you know they're they know you're going to. They're going to earn a profit. Most likely off of you. Are you getting your hook somehow. So they're taking a little play from vegas there who knows but you're right. I mean the whole thing is the learning curve and the ads. it's like they don't know what they're getting into a lot of business owners don't you. I mean you know. Flip the coin. Devil's advocate a little bit here if you look at it from facebook and google perspective. I personally don't believe that they're going. Hey let's make this muddy and convoluted and confusing for people. So they'll more money with us. I don't believe that's their intention. I believe their intention is to get to that point where the decision making is more on their algorithms than it is on you so by taking away these these features from you. They're sort of like slowly dismantling the existing system. Yeah everything's going that way isn't it. Yeah the whole automated. It's machine learning. I mean look at tesla. Tesla's an example. It's like you don't have to drive your car anymore. You're gonna take things away all the manual things. And then essentially yeah. Make it a little bit more. Push-button i guess yeah. I think i think the order in which they're taking things away from you is very convenient for them. They are taking things away in an order. That's probably helped them become more problems. Emmanuel stuff away but over time. That's i think they're gonna end. Goal is to get to a point where it's just like here's my url. Go run some ads for me and let their algorithms figured out. I think that's what they're trying to do. So on based off of like if the search results are kind of like what rand is saying with you. Have this machine learning thing in the background. Maybe giving you custom relevant search results to what you specifically should be looking for. Which i know they kind of do already but like super locked in all content pieces the maybe the ads will be even more effective. But that we'll see maybe this is just the learning phase where they're just kind of transitioning into that. Yeah it'll be interesting to see where it goes. Because i mean he was saying organic. Seo is getting harder and harder and harder because google's going to pull the results up onto the front page. Don't even need to click into your resource to get the answer to the questions anymore. We saw that. With one of our three-car promotions we actually had a promotion called We were ranking for thrive carte pricing As one of our promotions and we had a whole article about their pricing and then we compared it to the pricing of other competitors and things like that and that article was ranking. It was like the second article. Downright below thrive cards main article but over time. What happened was google. Just put the answer from our article on the front page of google type in thrive carte pricing. It'll pull up the price. Of thrive cartwright on the main screen of google. It will say from the article that we made so little link to article but nobody has a reason to click into the article anymore. They'll probably just look at the price. Oh no or oh yes. Click this link right above there. That says thrive cart. So yeah anyway. Well it's it's a big perspective change. It's interesting and i was going to say actually. And i didn't find a perfect link here but i think it's it's interesting with clubhouse as you mentioned clubhouse and just part part of our shameless plug as he should be on clubhouse. Follow us but it's interesting a clubhouse doesn't seem to have a lot of these algorithms things i mean they have an algorithm. I'm sure but it seems a lot more natural and it seems like it's like almost like this little platform that was probably built like fifteen years ago have been for ten years ago. That doesn't have all this wacky technology. Happening it's just kind of an organic feeling place at serendipitous. That doesn't feel sick. I hope they don't screw it. And we're gonna. We're gonna have another conversation on our our january therapy session. It's going to be the last episode of this month. And we're going to. We're going to deep dive into clubhouse. Leave it there. That'd be one of the things i want to talk about. Is how they could screw up the platform that way if they do those things. I have my predictions on record predictions on clubhouse. Because there's record the have that's true but Yeah if you're clubhouse follow at joe fear follow matt wolf. We're hanging out on there all the time and just answering questions and sharing tips on podcasting. Affiliate marketing is fun stuff. Good place to connect and we can hang out to I was hanging out with john. Bray knows one of our listeners. actually last night With angeles this go to so. It's kinda cool actually. Got pinged on that one. But i was watching. Tv about to go to bed. And then angela. Pigmy like yeah. Let's do it wasn't in the best head space to be on Okay on clubhouse at the moment yeah okay here. A little loopy i was. I was tired. I was mid process of my nightly wind down routine. Leave it there okay cool. I won't ask any questions of all right so we have this puppy up. All the action guides takeaways. That you really need to know early. The ones that you know that you probably would've taken notes on We got those taken care of for you. So if you go to flow chart group dot com. That's flu chart group dot com. It's a facebook group reader xy over there but there's an opportunity to plug in email address for free we will send those notes to you Within two weeks of this episode dropping these notes. You're a little late. you'll get some other news. He's not with a d. I like it. The saint saint action guides that. We're trying to brand down there. No at the end of the day there. He knows but they they're. They're all the actionable steps from the products but some episodes they're not there isn't really action steps. It's just insights and no right. There's more notes in. That thing is so who knows but just we use the words changeable. We stopped using companion. That we've been good about that. Yeah i mean that's yeah action guided notes but not really what it is kinda happy that companion where it was dining out with my little companion over here to my episode. It's so cute now. Action items like skewed it. I don't know what you're talking about anymore. The end of a podcast days. what happens. So let's rapper. But it's rapper up. So easy women are if you don't have it yet. Why what now using. I'm just in shock. Kinda go get easy webinar. It's got live webinar. Capabilities automated hybrid. They're adding new features constantly. I believe you can do like streaming various platform. Well you watched your kids use it for school. Yes screaming live streaming. Yeah well my kids do homeschool. But every month they have a check in with a teacher consultant kind of thing and they were using Easy webinar for their student teacher. Chicken thing is applications across the board so no matter what kind of business you are even if you're just doing affiliate stuff that is all good You can use webinars and that's the tool for you. That's what we'd recommend. They do every table webinar. You can think of and probably more than you've ever thought to. So i'm good too easy. Webinar dot com slash hustle. And you will get fatty discount. And you'll see little custom made for the show so you know about it over there. Read all about it easy. Webinar dot com slash hustle and share this episode. If if you've got friends that are doing facebook ads or google ads or trying to figure out how to drive traffic and it's all so confusing to them and they're trying to figure it out. You got to sit on this episode because this episode i think kind of demystify a lot of sort of complexities in in those worlds So share it because if you share it we will love you forever to share with crack check. We will share it with crack shack value in this. And it'll prove that you don't beat up. Puppies does prove that huh. While have what will have the listeners. There's a correlation between people who don't share and people who beat up puppies are the stats and spark torah. Possibly okay. i'll go. Look you don't share. We know who you are. We'll find the data. Far wasn't a threat although it did cut assembling all right. I'm gonna leave now. I feel safe here by all. Thank you for listening. Thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the hustle and flow chart podcast for taking the time to listen. We want to give you something a little special every single episode that we do we actually have somebody on our team take notes basically cliff's notes version of every episode where you can go and find all of the tips and tactics that they laid out all of the resources that they laid out all the good stuff from this episode. We actually have a nice simple notes version that you can find on our website. Go to evergreen. Prophets dot com. Find this episode that you just listened to give us your email address and we'll send you the notes. Thanks for listening. don't get it wiki wiki.

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Best of: Carole Cadwalladr

Recode Decode

1:16:20 hr | 7 months ago

Best of: Carole Cadwalladr

"This episode is brought to you by Agean. The future-proof Payments Platform Agean connects you with customers around the world, and makes it simple to accept all kinds of payments in half online in store, touch free, and beyond with a single solution. Keep your customers happy and your business growing with agile business. Not Boundaries Visit Agean Dot, com slash box to learn more. That's AG. D. Y. E. N.. Dot Com Slash Fox. At this moment salesforce working with businesses all over the world to adapt to all the changes that are happening. There helping people like me and me and me manage through this crisis. Return to work safely and grow my business again, visit work, Dot Com to get help for your business. If we were together, we can do this. Hi? I'm Cara Swisher. This is a best of Rico. Decode from the VOX media podcast network today. We're GONNA play my interview with Carol. Cadwalader, which originally aired in July, two thousand and nineteen cadwalader is a reporter. Amazing reporter for the British newspaper, The Guardian and observer who broke several stories that became the Cambridge Analytical Scandal as I mentioned. This is one of our favorite episodes from the past five years. You're listening to a rerun, but vox media and New York. York magazine. We'll be bringing you new interviews on this feed later this year, so please stay subscribed. You can still hear me twice a week. On my other podcasts pivot with Cara Swisher and Scott Galloway head over there for fresh funds, smart conversations about tech and media and all businesses wins and fails and predictions for what comes next just search for pivot in your podcast. App Of Choice, but now here's my interview with Carol. Calendar from July. Two Thousand Nineteen. Carol welcomed Rico Decode Thank you so much for invoicing swearing. In London England. This I had to come all the way here to get you on my podcast. I'm actually here for a few days and doing some different podcast with people here and also one of my favorite episodes, but I really wanted to talk to you. You're the one person I really WanNa talk to where shall we start i? Don't know where to start I. Mean why don't we talk about your background? Let's talk about how you got to where you got and why you? You started writing about facebook and sort of and then we'll get into Cambridge Analytica, and where it's going in your Ted talk, which was a worldwide sensation I, think could stuff. We've been talking about in Silicon Valley long time, but it really set off a lot of talking and I want to talk about sort of your your time here, because as I understand it, people are trying to say you're conspiracy theories, and as it turns out your conspiracies or through, so you're not. Anyway, but let's start with that. We're talking about how you got to where you got and why you started writing about tech so I actually started writing about tech a long time ago. I always say no. You know a year ago, I used to say well. I was just a feature writer stumbled across this story, but actually the genesis goes back a long time, and that I went to a Ted Conference two thousand and five. I think it was still a secret kind of conference for millionaires, and I was really I had toolkit after talk. from about how technology was going to save the world, and the crowd was going to come together and write. We were GonNA cure cancer, and it was going to be amazing. That would have been going on for a while, yeah! I was kind of exposed to and I thought this is this. What did you think when you were sitting there? These I've been zillions of these talks. It's crazy. They like they went on. It was also self-congratulatory like, aren't we? That was genuinely illuminating. Right me at the time you know. Coming from somewhere else so yes. Exactly exactly so you know. I heard you know. wikipedia was still fresh new. It felt the time and Jimmy Wales stood up there and explained you know. This magical thing operated. Beyond. You know something which we just hadn't been seen before, and didn't seem like it would be possible, and so it just. It really did just blow my mind and I started. Getting interesting in it and start, ride your mind positively or negatively. Oh, very positively. I was very squarely on. Say She topiary I was utterly tech Utopia living through APPS. Yeah, it was just going to it was it was to be amazing? This bright new future, and and so I just started covering the topic, but in the very much I'm a feature writer, I write for a lay audience for I will never been inside the technology section. It wasn't. Wasn't for people who interested intact. It was about the you know the cultural and the political implications of this kind of stuff, and at the same time I carried on with my other. You know my normal job, which was I, wrote across the newspaper and interviews and ripple, Taj and heads and things, but you know I kind of. We've all been on that journey of seeing the downsides of this kind of technology and getting concerned about the monopoly. And so I will say started covering that, and so for example. I went undercover in an Amazon Warehouse in Wales for a week maybe six seven years ago now and you wanted to see what conditions were like. There had been some reporting on conditions or yeah, and it was just I. Mean it was just fascinating? Because an and sort of Barak really not our Barrick Brousseau. We're working twelve thirteen fourteen hour days, walking sixty miles, shift and these people. This is really jobs of last resort and they didn't use. This was in south Wales, which is very much a crucible, if the labor movement but unions weren't inside. A warehouse. No nobody really knew what was going on inside. You know this thing of walking half mile to your break to her five minutes to sit down to walk back to your workstation, and these were really jobs of last resort and so i. you know that was just sort of one aspect of it and I was falling. I went out to Silicon Valley several times to interview people different stories. And you know I had the experience of Google being very cross with me, for for I voted I didn't interview with rakers while they were very cross about Oh. Great, yeah! Explain who raise the? As well is the is the never gonNA die. He's never gonNA dog. He's a futurist. You May said to him once I go no matter what is a line from moonstruck. That Olympia Dukakis says to her husband when he's cheating on her, and he goes no matter what you do, Victor, you're going to die. Not. Just. Say this. Yeah, so he's released. He now works I. Got Interviewed Him before we started working for Google. And this is what they got very upset about. Because by the time the article came out, he was working for them, and they're all saying that machine intelligence going to overtake intelligence by the year I, think twenty twenty eight. And then and actually one of the things which was very pivotal in in how I started thinking about this particular issue of technology democracy. Was I went to a tech crunch? Disrupt runs. And just met you know these thousands of entrepreneurs who all out to disrupt some industry or another all somebody I remember meeting, somebody who wants to disrupt socks I, never quite understood that, but saying how we we've I've experienced myself. The way that journalism is being disrupted destroyed. Our new technology destroyed the business model for newspapers. Be so how it disrupted the music industry, and it was just a few weeks before the US presidential election. That's a you know. I was noticing this sort of constellation of different news stories, and thinking what you can't really have an election like used to Hillary Clinton's emails had been leaked right, and so this idea this strategically well now we now know who right incredibly strategically, and they were the first reports coming out of Macedonia about these teenagers writing fake news articles the Prophet and so I just thought technology's disrupting politics. And I thought well, somebody must have risen that somebody must have written this piece Google that and there's nobody has written this piece, so I just did it as a sort of short op-ed. Comment piece, and and then we had the you know. The US presidential election and trump was elected and. I was moment of shock and first suggestions about the use of technology in the platforms Monica Big Sang. It was ludicrous. The idea that facebook played any no zero. Zero I think is the word never know he doesn't know how to use the word ludicrous. Go ahead. My Am I. Just sort of Said you know. Do a long featured piece on. Let's do this thing on this phenomenon fake news. And so that was you know two weeks? After the the presidential election, two thousand November two thousand sixteen would. France mark gave was interviewed in an event and he said there was no. There is zero chance. There was any influence zero chance, and then they walked back to one point, one percent or one one zero, one one percent the to saying. But then. I've just been based. Basically I've been ever since. That day I have relationship. Because you know a lot of people, didn't they? The American certainly weren't and they were sort of following along. They just accepted the emails they they were. You know people I've been reading about the. Social Impact of technology on people's partisanship and stuff like that, but is it being an outsider? Or what do you think is dead, obvious or because of Brexit here? I think as well I do say covered one of the stories I'd sort of a I'd sort of done. Big Feature was anonymous and Los Sat can and that hallway, and I was very there was one story in particular kind of captured my attention, although it turned out to be a red herring in some senses, but there'd been just days before the US presidential election, a DOS attack on a nation state on a country. They'd say so. This was hackers took down the entire Internet for I think Sierra, Leone, remember, and I just thought isn't that kind of that's astonishing, isn't it? And that there was a suggestion that this was a trial run? So that, you could actually try and do this to a state in America. For example or or the idea of trying to use to an entire country I mean it was. It was just the the way that sort of technology sits so much at the heart of these democratic systems, and as I say it was, it was a constellation of different stories and justice, having just written about the whole philosophy around the idea of disruption, so is this professor of? Of Business I think Clay Christiansen and he called it the mudslide hypothesis, which is so a a kind of small change, a small technological advantage. Yeah, yeah can become this sort of sooner army and has overturned established industries from his example was IBM. So it was really it was really the idea of well. Actually we've seen it happen. We've seen happen across all these industries, and and it really does look like politics is next, and that is not politics. Democracy. So you talk about getting to Cambridge because that really. Thinks facebook for the most part of been saying well. Maybe there was a little e influence. Maybe there was some Russian person, but they really weren't discussing it, and I remember bothering them at the time, and there wasn't a lot of. Idea that there might have been a problem on the platform, and I had been at that two thousand and eight event where he talked about third party information I remember that very vividly and thinking a good thing for this idiot company to be getting the information off a facebook. FACEBOOK wasn't very big at the time. It wasn't as big. It was big, but it wasn't as as it wasn't two point six billion people. Talk about how did you move to that so i? Actually say I mean the focus of the first big piece I did, which was just a couple of weeks after the the election was Google, actually and I kind of every talk I do I always talk about it because it, just it. Just important part of it it was this it was this thing about this. When I started looking at the top, and I got really I just started going. So how does Google search actually work and so this playing around with it and putting in terms, and this was the thing I put in Jews into the search bar, and you never really make into question so I put all Jews and the suggestion I got. Was All Jews evil. That was the top one right, and you don't. Even you don't even have press return nells your. Result, it's automatic and the entire page result. I didn't ask that question Google suggested a question. And now it's answering it and every single. One of those answers was yes. Jews are evil. And then at the bottom it said you know. Two suggestions walked onto search for next, and the suggestion was did the Holocaust happened right, so it's like well. Okay. Let's click that link and I clicked that link. Every single result was saying no. The Holocaust didn't happen the top resort. WENT TO STORM FRONT? which is a Nazi website. So is this is kind of like trump. Just been elated. It was sort of talk. Install me, November night. What. Am I looking at here is just me and say you know I was trying on different browsers trying different search terms. I could exactly the same thing with a whole range research including women, so when I did women and I women again I. Go are women evil. And there's this thing Google is really certain. If the answer like one hundred percents, it puts the answer in a box, and so for all women evil. Put The answer in a box and it said yes. Women are evil, because every woman contains a little bit of prostitute inside. That was from where where was the link? It was from some crazy sites one. They suggested and. Anyhow screen shots things on earth and my saying, and then my really lucky break was a day later. It was only a day later. I stumbled across. The academic who's a then small school? In the United States Jonathan, Albright and he had just started mapping trying to map this sort of ecosystem of fall, right website, right and Lincoln and what he was discovering, was he? He took a list. That elicited been published of life. These websites which publishing fake news articles and he used a tool which looked to all the links going in and out, and then he matched them, and what he saw well, and he just done that when I got on the telephone, and he was soup freaked I was free time he was free time he was saying. It's like it's like he's A. He's A. It's like a cancer. You can say it's sort of strangling all the mainstream right of news and information, and it's sort of worked out. There's something systemic at work here whereby it clips ing. What should becoming because they're using it well. They're using to Leah as They as they were architecture I always say there is an there's an architecture you can. In the beginning goes more context, accuracy and speed, and then it turned into vitality, speed and engagement, like or especially facebook, same thing, and when you change the parameters of the architecture, you get different things and I think a lot of right wing entities which had been sort of zeroed out of media in general sort of sidelined in stream media found. You know everyone was like. Oh, a you know. Dictators don't like the Internet I'm like new. They like it like force. They like it. It's a huge opportunity for fringe groups future opportunity for different views because they become on equal footing. One of the first things again it was at a Ted actually when I heard Eugenie more resolve. Talk about the way that you know to. Lukashenko in. Had discovered the Internet was this great friend. Everywhere air to Turkey everywhere so you so you got interested in how this was built, which most Silicon Valley people say. Hey, it's just a benign platform. That was their excuse. Hayward just putting this is what people are searching for. Yeah and was day that Google would try to. You know responses to they refuse to acknowledge. This will refuse to acknowledge. WAS ANYTHING WRONG HERE? There was any problem at all, and then they were like well. It just reflects what people are searching for right. So, we'd ask. They're made by walking. which was insane? Organizing, the world's information, and the idea of delivering quality results. How that be I mean. How long have these results be now? Who is I I? Just I just thought if this sort of teenage kid in that bedroom just interested in who the Nazis or Is Hitler Evil and you whole results saying no Hitler was actually a really good guy. What was so interesting that I story the first response vehicle. Being you know I've spent the last year and a half years dealing with which was the total lack of accountability from the platforms, this denial of responsibility, and then the counterattack, so the way they went actually on the attack against us so I just normally. What happened is I. You know I. This is what I did I write wrote these long-form features I got into a topic. I covered it. And then you know I moved on, and you know, publish this piece I was like surely the world is going to be you know say this is outrageous. Was Do something we've got to fix. This net is being poisoned. What is what is this shadow Internet almost? And Dot didn't happen and and Google just by refusing to engage, they started to hand changing some of the results, so I thought okay. We'll have just got to keep kind of writing about this and so I just kept for the next five or six weeks I just carried on writing. And I did things that this made them really incensed. I took out an adver I used to do. You know, how do I change the results to say that? Yes, the Holocaust happened I. Know I'll take a google ad, so I took it. I Google out to get to the top of the search results, and that made them very furious and anyway and then they Christmas Eve One day! We don't publish on a on Christmas. Day and that was the day you know Google sent in this massive legal kind of complaint to the garbage in and ause dealing with that till with our lawyer for Paul puts upon head of legal at the Guardian Jill Philips. Who has been very instrumental in this whole story I, you defined it chilling, alleging this just thing of trying to shut the story down trying to shut the story down by gang after the reporter by going after the newspaper to say. To say they were claiming problems with my reporting and claiming something is inaccurate and. If, they pick up on a tiny detail to distract from the bigger store. This you know, but you persisted. Yeah, we persisted, but then what was kind of funny was I actually I actually got way late because that was when Cambridge analytic. On my case right so I was kind of I and I was desperate I've always wanted to go back to Google I was like Youtube such as you're on. To something on them, but in the meantime I started getting these crazy letters from this company Cambridge. And you know they just spending had one mentioned in the first piece nightside they were if the trump campaign worked in brexit. Because that's what they're, you know the website I saw it said, and that's what the articles that said, and they started rising to me and say no. No, no, no, that's that's not true. We never worked in Brexit. So we started rushing Vashem's there well his way you'll see Oh said that you worked for the leave campaign, and here's where the leave campaign said that you hired them, and they would let yes, yes, yes, but that's not true and you need to take out incorrect that and so this went on about three times I was like wondering. Is this going on here? And and actually what? Dame what happened? Is this our readers? Editor got in touch. He was sort of like well. Let's actually just find out what happened and he got in touch with this guy. Could Anti Week Moore? Who worked on the leave campaign worked on Niger. Farraj is leave campaign and asked him, and he said yes. We did use Cambridge ANALYTICA. We just didn't pay them. And as it's kind of interesting, because that's kind of like a gift, isn't the. Gifts have to be declared right and I trusted off to go for coffee with Andy, and that conversation became the basis for the by first big piece on Cambridge Analytica. Cambridge Analytica and also Robert Mercer and Steve Bannon was this very. It was just so interesting I mean I it was it was? Again it was before there'd been any. Jane Mayer had risen her big piece on Robert Mercer for the New Yorker. A wealthy donor. Row Row row immerses this key character. He's this hedge fund billionaire and he had been the biggest donor to trump and he had funded. Breitbart said that were so. Which is the false Charlotte for rights? News Network of which Steve Bannon was the editor in chief and various things funded in one of the other things he'd funded been Cambridge Analytica and Cambridge idealistic had been very instrumental in the trump campaign, and he was these guys saying yes, and we use them in brexit nexus. Nexus and he said that you know well. Of course they wanted to help us. Because brexit was the Petrie dish for trump and that it was very explicit soon as because, of course we know we, we're the same family we using the same techniques and Steve Bannon Hydro Farraj good friends you know it's all part, trump and Brexit, all part of the same thing. Anyway, that was the first big story I did on Cambridge Analytica, and even then it was out there. You know this this this information about how Cambridge. ANALYTICA had somehow got hold of all this facebook data. You know when I looked at the cuts. There was this piece in the Guardian in December two. Thousand Fifteen. By journalist called Harry Davies and he that was his scoop. He'd found that out, but at the time Cambridge Analytical wasn't working for trump. It was working for Marquette crews and facebook just did what the tech companies do, which is it just denied it and refused to comment, and you know that was it so you started to see the links between the facebook data and Cambridge analytics, yes? Yes, and they sort of view this concerted right-wing attempt to disrupt the mainstream media. That was what was so fascinating about. Bannon and Mercer had you know these various different strategies, which was all about disrupting the mainstream media system worked and you know there was another one which was a they. They also funded this thing. The Government Accountability Institute, and that example with that they did really deep research into Hillary Clinton, and then they fed those stories into the new. York Times, amongst other places it was it was so here. You are with these pieces, which is we're GONNA get back to when we get back. We'll talk more about it. You have these pieces of different things that they were doing that. You were slowly working on. What you developed a distrust of these companies in terms of. Yes absolutely what they were saying because they came out, they were like we're just benign word. We just have information. Anybody can use those I. think that's pretty much there. And It was just this thing which was in particular, which was that nothing has any traction anymore? So you know it was publishing this stuff about Cambridge islet groom, facebook and everybody was. This is terrible and then you know the next outrage hit the news cycle. which meant to keep you exhausted this? Is the point. I've kind of like. Keep getting right meaning to do the story again in a different way and really a net, and that was when the break I had was when I found. Christopher Wiley or listening to my July, two thousand, nine nineteen nine interview with Carol. CADWALADER WE'RE GONNA take a quick break now and be back after this. This is advertiser content. Hey this is because I'm a podcast or By I a Gamer Five G. is changing the gaming world in really unexpected exciting ways with the help of Samsung Five G.. I'm getting a peek at how gaming is getting faster smoother and can even improve our lives well. 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Be One of the first to harness the game transfer fact with Samsung Galaxy Five G. now available on Galaxy S, twenty five G. and a seventy one five G. feels good to be I with Samson. If you run a business, you have questions right now. So what exactly does the new normal mean? How can I help? My employees feel safe when they come back to the office. I have a small business. How can I get somebody to help me right now? That's why salesforce created work DOT COM to give businesses a plan to reopen safely and be ready for the next normal. Let's bring business and the business of carrying together. Thank you, thank you. Join the conversation at work. Dot Com to learn more. We're here with Carol cadwalader. She's investigative journalist for the Guardian Observer and obviously so well known for dealing with issues around facebook and the election, so you found Chris, Wiley. who was the whistle blower inside of? Just kind of just getting these denials Cambridge analytical was just denying stuff. facebook was just annoying stuff. The leave campaign was just denying stuff. What happened the first article I did came Jessica. I mean I. was this great success in some ways? It kicked off too big official investigations in Britain, so it kicked off one investigation by the electoral commission into hot. They declared everything. The diaper bending that that investigation is now with the Metropolitan Police was the waiting on the you know. The commission has said no, they didn't and there's now police investigations, and then the other investigation which was kicked off was by our Information Commissioner's office. Its investigation became this massive inquiry into data and politics, which is now the biggest data investigation of all time. They've had seventy full time people working on. It is the one which is now find facebook the maximum amount at such, so it precipitated that, but at the same time there was just so much more out there anyway, so that was my thought right. I've got to find some ex employees I need to find somebody to to me and say was kind of laborious process of approaching people in being rebuffed the Blubber, and eventually found somebody, and he said when as soon as I started talking about facebook data, he said well. You need to find Christopher. Wiley whose Christopher Wiley and said well. This Canadian guy and he's the guy got the facebook data. And you know, and then I looked on the Internet craze, very smart nothing to connect to Cambridge analyst, the parent company Seal, but I find I tim him Dan and he'd been sort of waiting. For. Somebody to find him and he he was sort of surprised that nobody had found him until then and you kicked off this. The first telephone conversation I had with him, he was in Canada at the time. It was about seven hours long. I mean it was absolutely mind blowing. He was one of the partners there he'd be research direct. Okay high rankings! Yeah, yeah, that's right. He was an it was his. Basically, it was his idea to get this facebook dater and to do this personality testing into. Misused the data, which is what facebook does that? They took date and misused it, and they had facebook had no idea they would not follow the facebook rules. That, was facebook excuse yes I, think he. We can get Nagara strong than because what they? What they did was face. Because the Information Commissioner in Britain has you know has made the ruling that what facebook did was illegal in allowed Cambridge Analytica to break. Its rules to break the law right I mean it broke the law right? I mean society. It's not just data, abuses, illegal data abuse, and I think that is kind of important distinction and. An Christie News this amazing character and he had. It, was it was all very well to have somebody saying Oh, yes, x. y., and said Bosley. How can you prove any of the and he was like well yeah. I've got receipts right? Literally had the receipts for the facebook data and he had the contracts he had you know. The founding contracts became journalist the company, and then he just started. You know where we started going through stuff. More Mu things came out. He went back and looked to emails and found emails of Alexander Kogan who is the the the psychologist Cambridge University, who harvested the data? You know talking about Cambridge. Yes sorry, yes, talking about his trips to Russia at the time, and then you know Chris Pulling out this pitch and you know discovered that he done this research for which came journalistic pitching to Lukoil, so there were pitching. Russia, to target American voters right to the biggest Russian oil company in. It's just didn't make any sense. It was just super weird. Say Yes, the next article was in May, two, thousand, seventeen. It was called the great brexit robbery, and it was really about the skien of links between Brexit and trump on Russia and how you could see the connections between these the individuals and these companies and the data and the money, and and we at that point. We thought well. Chris was kind of interested in you, know he? We already started talking about coming forward as a named whistle blower. And but he had to break a nondisclosure agreement, so it was difficult, and it was legally complicated, and immediately we are the article then Cambridge analytica studied threatening the Guardian. Trying to sue US for defamation for special damages, justice, in Britain, and in America, and this was his own. Robot misses the deepest pocket. And it was taking. You know it was really serious and. Really quite scary, and they only said like an existential level. You know you're to member that the thing I think we were all killed by was the way that pizza. Thiel took down Gawker. You have an ideologically motivated billionaire who took down immediately, Organiz, ation and here I was writing the story about an ideologically motivated billionaire who backed trump right. The vice president of the company was Steve Bannon at the time working in the White House at the time he was in the White House I mean it was really honestly kind of chilling and quite scary. Thinking about wh- you off against at the time. And now now so much of this has been normalized and. St John's not in the. At crying all over, Europe now. They can trouble, but we know we were looking at Cambridge. ANALYTICA had just one pent contracts with the state. Department, and was, it would been reported that it was going to get a contract with the Pentagon right, so you had all of this information. Two hundred thirty million American voters using facebook data using these incredibly detailed profiles about well, some of the facebook had pushed back on you several times on these stories, and and I include right before you publish them. Say That on that one. They they followed the same strategy said this was exactly the same strategy. They refused to comment and they pretended it didn't happen. And this is why you know it became, but why I realized that sort of Chris hot this he will sort of secret weapon because having a person who could speak to it personally about what he had seen right and somebody who is so articulate and couldn't frame what this meant the dangers of it. He just I could see how that was. That would just catapult this story into a different shirt level of engine, and so that was why I think she spent the entire next year on I mean. It was a year a year solidly full-time. All Day every day. Working on that story to get one of the things that face personally they push back on you and threatened legal action say they did not take it right or did not cause. It came here as the story. That's the company you're going after, but facebook is I have no idea i. mean I mean absolutely we we always need. This story was going to be devastating to Cambridge I had no idea of the scale of impact. This would have on facebook. We really didn't see that coming at all. And in many ways it was the way that facebook reacted and responded. We sort of. Angry I kind of blew itself up on dwells, argument initially was aggressive, and then it was like we didn't know like I think we didn't know is basic. Are they spent three days figuring out so I mean what was extraordinary. was that all through this period? I've been writing story after story about my stories about came Janis get even while some work with Chris. They've carried on and walks. We've had this threat of being sued. We wrote a thirty five page legal letter back to Cambridge on. It took our lawyers a week. I mean this was a huge effort from the Gaji news organization to keep going with the story. And at no point did facebook ever say Oh, well, actually? Okay, this is what happened. We know this. We're sorry. There was just never got a comment. And then you know we go through because our libel laws here are so much stricter. It's so much more difficult to publish this stuff, so we have. We go through a very kind strict protocol before publication everything in writing to them, so we put in our questions on the Monday and we'd had an agreement. New York Times and I also did the story with and with Channel Four News that we put in our questions on the same day. facebook. They didn't respond for three four. And then I got a call from, and they said we're GONNA. Be Sending you response a written response tomorrow, but. Just to let you know that we're you know we're very very categoric about this data breach. Justice but they kept saying. Says it was. I remember they. said it was. Each day. I know we were still figuring out what the headline was at that point so I got off the phone and my colleague Emma Graham Harrison, who I vote the news stories with she said what did they said? It's just. Weird taste of said yeah, where we can right to you, but they're very clear. It's not a data breach. Data breach yes. So that the headline say any, but then, but then the next day it was, it was couldn't believe it. You know it been so hard to get through the ticket. The hurdles with Cambridge Analytical to get into this position to publish day before publication facebook had this information now remember this more than two years. It then writes this league. League. Elite they heart these fancy lawyers in London to write us. A letter didn't do this. The New York Times. Oviously and saying you know actually this is highly defamatory and you know we will take legal action if you persist in, you know publishing these falsehoods. and. So spent went into another panic. The day before publication we're in these intense legal meetings. We're bringing the ICAO will actually have to stand on. This is ridiculous and we're like okay. We're plunging forward. Then what happens is it is one o'clock in the morning the night before advocation. And, then we discover facebook of put out a press release in the middle of the night, British time saying Oh we're kicking. Cambridge analytica off our platform so ready to run a spoiler story. So. We kind of sounds like them. Honestly, that's what I do if I were them, but. I wouldn't either I think. Kind of sourcing how the New York Times saying well. We need to publish now and we're like. No, we need to hold off. We needed to hold the line need to publish together. We need to stick to the plan anyway, so we all do. We just bring forward a bit. We've we published on the Saturday and. Then we have that three days. Islands I mean it was. It was sorta phenomenal in facebook just went into this internal tailspin and didn't know how to respond. Yeah, and and then eventually you. Day full mocks, Caymans episode. Oh I'm so sorry. Yeah, so. We have heard those before in the united. States of America you just got to. That was your first. I'm sorry, because it's my fiftieth so the impact. Let's see what has been the impact. And then it went on, and then as more showed it wasn't just it was Cambridge. Analytical but a lot more. Yes, it goes off into so many branches. It goes into fake news. It goes. Goes into disinformation. It goes into just ugliness that people real real feelings, real racist and other things today there was the story of of the the customs of mortar drawl having a facebook group, which is just appalling now I'm not sure that's facebook's fall, but I do know when exist without facebook. Do you know what I mean like you? Can you blame them, or can you say? The ongoing argument them You know they're like if you had a if you had a robbery, would you blame the car I? Said? You're the gun. The Gun yes, that's what you are. Yes, that's right. It doesn't. Is that thing, isn't it? Yeah, facebook doesn't kill people. People kill right exactly kind of thing, and so we have gone off into an and has gone into data hacking to which they had an issue with not just facebook, but everyone in the its data hacking. It's privacy. It goes off so many different avenues off this one idea that maybe things aren't quite so kosher with how these things are run. Yes, where are we now fast forward? You I mean for for year I'd have the tech. Bros. saying A. Bummer that all companies do this is nothing special about Cambridge list It's just overestimated the coil right. School about this and it was like this was i. just want to go back into the special features of this. which was Cambridge I? Lucy came it was seal the parent group. It was a military contract Okay, it was a propaganda firm which had worked in Afghanistan in Iraq and you know this was no ordinary data firm, and also I think that the different angle. We had on it as well. Well, is that the sort of technology reporters in San Francisco reporting on technology firms just came out the story from a different angle and coming at it from Europe where we had laws, it was it was. Is this legal and we? You know we now know actually it wasn't legal, but that is still unwinding so that just in terms of what facebook did with Cambridge just this bit of the story. There are so many investigations going on, so the FBI is investigating. The Department of Justice is investigating the federal trade. Commission is investigating the Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating, and that's just in America. We know mistakes injury. Yeah, trump and we know that the the FTC is looking is i. mean it's been said that it's looking at you know falling into the billions. Yeah, and wrote a column saying they need to be fifty billion, yes, and just this week, and but since there's no laws, we need a big old fine. And just this week it was announced in Italy they imposed. Was Billion Euros. I don't know that one million years I kind of scale. If this thing is crazy, I can't even keep up with the unit. said that is still very much unwinding. The I find the SEC investigation into what facebook did with Cambridge analytica fascinating because. I think that's kind of scary ones in many ways from the midst ones where directors get held responsible and what we've seen with facebook. I think when they didn't know how to respond to this. They've refused to say. Who knew what when about Cambridge Analytica right that question who knew walk? When has not been onset and I think that's one of the reasons why Mark Zuckerberg for example when come to Britain announced the Russians of legislatures cleared that he's invited by the different. MP's for different commissions, and so I just this thing I find totally scandalous and. Is that mark. Zuckerberg has been asked multiple times by our parliament to come an answer questions about facebook in particular back Cambridge Analytical, and then what happened is because our parliament could get no traction, no answers from facebook on these things and banded together. We think it's twelve of a country's say. Countries like Canada and Australia and. Argentina and they form this grand. International Committee and Mark Zuckerberg has refused to together in answer questions to them, and this is more than half a billion people big Moose entity. Says this incredible disdain to rest of the world? Essentially we're just. We're just colonial subjects. Where do you imagine going then? Because the business has never been better, people are leaving. There's all kinds of different things going at the same time. The FTC is shown a little more teeth probably not enough. What do you think the government We'll get into that in the next section, but I mean. What are you direction? Are you going then in this from this? Well, my thing is is that. I was treated like a wild conspiracy. Things yeah in this entire here in Britain. Absolutely here in Britain, and then you know it turned out of. It's all true, and it's actually much worse even than I reported everything we find out about. It is actually much worse than we thought. And here in Britain you know my investigation, his fame much being also around these fall, right figures, and their links into Russia and to the American far right. It's again I get treated like a crazy conspiracy theorists and isn't. It's absolutely strategic because a way of. Attacking the story is to attack me right and this. Goes on a daily basis, and it's you know it's a really tough publishing landscape here because. They did it? We did good talk with Maria says the same thing in her case, it's quite dangerous. It's actually this is a brutal dictator. To, ruin your reputation and to make it thing that you are gone, you've got okay. She was right about that, but now she's gone too far. Yeah, yeah, and it's just it's. It's relentless, and it's coordinated, and it's you know. Most of the press is very right wing here and we have our national broadcaster, and they've been very scared to cover the story in so many ways and Servino sort of absence on so much of this and we don't have the resources. Journalism just doesn't have the resources here, so this isn't a big team. The Guardian has been this amazing organization which has sort of back. This story police ain't time. It just hasn't had the money to put any. Reporting Resources. We're listening to my July two thousand nineteen interview with Carol. CADWALADER WE'RE GONNA. Take another break now, but we back soon. In a world that's constantly evolving. What's happening? Tomorrow is the news you need today. Get wired as a new podcast from wired hosted by senior writer Lauren good. She's diving into technologies. Most important rabbit holes like tech, the coronavirus, pandemic disinformation and election security, and what policing should look like in the future with help from wired through robust newsroom of trustworthy tech journalists Lauren will uncover new ways of making sense of a world in constant transformation wired knows. Knows that every tech story is really a story about people. And now they're bringing their heart heading reporting intimate storytelling and fresh perspectives on the world tack to audio with new episodes, dropping Mondays get wired will set the tech agenda for the week. Get wired. It's news from tomorrow delivered to you today. Listen and subscribe to get wired wherever you get your podcasts. VPN's are great because they keep you private and hidden online, which is why it's such a shame that some VPN's log data which sort of defeats the purpose. HMA, VPN doesn't do that though we're just private and fast and generally awesome to have around, get HMA VPN now for seventy five percent off and see what we're talking about go to a VPN. Dot Com slash deal. Or here with Carol Cadwalader, she is a journal uninvestigated journals for the Guardian Observer. She is the person who broke the original stories about facebook's involvement with Cambridge Analytica, setting off a whole range of different things in directions in reporting. So you, you seem frustrated and and sort of here. You are broken this thing and it doesn't as you said it doesn't get traction. It doesn't matter I don't believe that I do think it has traction i. just don't know what kind of traction it has right because what happens in the United States is there's one. Horrible thing trump says after another, and you forgot the last one he said, and that's the whole point of exhaustion is the whole point social media so that you give up at some point or you become tired, exhausted and overwhelmed, or you get impugned. In your case, crazy conspiracy theories in my case, she such a Bummer, she so mean and I. Don't know how you can be mean to billionaires I don't get it. I don't even get is like there's no amount of mean that they shouldn't be able to take on some levels, and so it's in personal terms. Mean a bummer. Negative overly negative doesn't don't you like tech I? That's the kind of things I get which is interesting but they still talk to you Chiffon really fascinating. I loved your interview with. That was a disaster for him. He's never gonNA want to. Every interview. Disaster, it's really fascinating I. Think they're great actually. I don't think that I think they're great for mark, Zuckerberg because he actually start, you start to see the mentality you right? You know what I mean. I don't think that's a bad thing for. I just thought thing that the way I mean I just thought it was such a sort of amazing telling moment when you tried to press him on, you asked about my. Right and you try to break through. How did that make you feel right? And how does that? You don't asking right? He kept on being unable to answer right right. He was I. Don't think he was any means being disingenuous I think he'd couldn't answer like. It was really interesting. I I've been around. People who are disingenuous I understand that like the liars. It's a very different level of he has no ability to to take responsibility, even though I think he's not the kind of. Again people I've covered have been really unctuous awful people. It's not the same thing, so it's really an awesome thing to be. Sort of pressing someone who just can't even compute I don't know how. Is this initially. I was kind of like. Is it just as the lawyer's answer? And you know, and then you're actually this is dissociation thing which I find the most chilling right, surely which is. Denote have these people who don't respond on a human level I. Mean I just can't how I mean. How did you compute that? You'll ahead of this company right and. You know the United Nations has said that you have helped for meant. You know the mass killing of people right and to like no no. Do not have a reckoning with yourself, and to not once make right amends well. What happens is the he's not. He doesn't do it as much but a lot of them. Get into this victim mentality, Hey! You're and become super aggressive like the people on the invasion gotten super aggressive like you know who have no power by the way so I don't really care what they think in lots of ways, but it's really interesting reaction. It's victimization. It's if you don't fail. You don't do things like that. Suddenly, all of a sudden silicon valley has been shooting off tweets around. Fa like you. You have to fail, and only those who criticized don't create I'm like I. Create and I criticized Nice to meet you like. It's really an interesting thing, so talk about how for Meghan. This ted. Talk that you did that. Really got a lot of traction speaking of attraction and I think it really did it. was I mean so? You're invited their our. You would got near initial. Tech is fantastic. You're back there. Yes, and I've I've been to you because I've been I've been a reporter. Ted So I. You know I knew kind of water big deal it was and I was. So terrified of public speaking and kind of force myself doing this story to start doing panels, and then, but still a tedtalk with sort of. At another level of sort of terrifying. But I knew that it was this opportunity to talk directly to the people who are in these companies making these decisions. And who are responsible and so I really did want I think you dot into? Physical I think not did inspire me in some ways, but it was. You know I wanted to break through to them as people and as people who are responsible for creating this world that we have now found ourselves, and and it's not I. Don't think we know we know they didn't set out. To do so nobody did, but maybe maybe Cambridge Etiquette. Absolutely come on, yeah, I mean they're extraordinarily company. There's still so much Cambridge online car which you know they worked in. I, think one hundred and fifty four elections around the will. We've only scratching the surface. We've actually got no idea what came journalists. Did you trump well? I think that's this. You're never gonNA find out. That's the whole point of Russian found some of the Russian stuff. You'll never be able to quantify if you can't quantify it. People say well. You didn't switch. The election was because Hillary Clinton was a bitch like that's why I'm like. Maybe, but it's also this you can't quantify. This is where the power of kind of conscience and if people. People you know having a moral conscience is so important, and that's the thing I think I was trying to appeal to. Because this, you know we saw with Christopher. Wa. You have one person who decides to speak out. Has This incredible power? There are people all across Silicon Valley. Who knows stuff who are not speaking about it and like I say the thing of. Cambridge on liquor, there were these employees who worked on the trump election young Europeans who've not spoken up I mean I just. I. You know I mean. Maybe this is one thing to say on. You know on your your podcast. Listen to people. In, but listen by people in Silicon Valley and it's you really okay with this stuff I mean. Are you really okay with your company's leadership? A you really sure that they are doing everything that they can. Because you know you should be troubled and you're part of it you are. You are part of this? You can't pretend that you don't know anymore I mean before we didn't know. And I don't think employees need the full story, but it's becoming clearer and clearer. And it is deeply deeply troubling, and this way that it is the way I mean it is I think techno fascism is one of the ways that I kind of think about started thinking about it, really which is this technology favors populist Authoritarians, and that is what we're seeing all across the world and every day we see more of it, and we see the way that's debt communicating with each other and they are. are growing in strength in numbers, and they are being facilitated by these technology companies, and you employees are part of that as you see I just did a really interesting interview with the head of Aws about facial recognition, and it was i. don't know if you saw the re what he said. We're not responsible for how people use our technology and I was like. Yes, you are, and then it was an interesting. Again the terrific Louis. Successful executive, lovely guy and it was really interesting. I the the mentality of Hey, we just make the stuff we can't be. How do you? What solutions do you find you this? Your your speech was so impassioned, and so you've got to have a conscience. You've got to have ethics and it's something I've written about. They need ethics and they need to take humanities courses. They need to do this. What do you think prevents it? And what do you think some of the besides just constantly reminding them that? What do you imagine the solution? Be Great Reporting I. think Shame Shame. That's my job for years now it's not working. What do you imagine it to be the besides shame, the solutions to how do you educate a whole new group of technology people that this is not? They have to think really. Is this. I mean I think one of the things is being that it's just been technology. kind of industry has existed within this bubble technologists creating technology for and this we need all sorts of other types of people we need philosophers and ethicists and more diversity. We need the people who are being homed by this technology represented, and I find incredibly troubling that this one of the most troubling things I find. Is that say one of the reasons that we were very grateful to? Partner with the New York Times, for example as well on the story was the only the United States that can legislate against these companies in that sense, and the only the US press that they pay any attention to. and. We did this big workshop with these journalists from Bangladesh India and Sri, Lanka and Pakistan. Who would telling me about the ways that you know? The technology is being used in their countries, and they've got no chance of holding facebook and Google to account right. You in Britain where we speak the same language, and we have this shared culture and our metronews media shed. We had no Charles so that I feel there is this real responsibility in the United States to also press the case for the rest of the world, and for what is going on with social media and the rest of the. And what you imagine should happen. What would you if you could facebook has proposed this sort of it is true supreme? Court, look at. There's the which I. Think is just ridiculous. You know we want you on our. Ask Me, but I'd be like. No, thank you. It's not my company and I. Didn't you know I didn't cause this mess and I'm not gonNA. Clean it up for you. But what do you imagine woodwork I think they need an awful lot. The governments can do one of the things which I think became very clear during the Christ church massacre was that that video is going viral across the the world to platforms especially, and they refuse to take responsibility for it. Just my I say this again is that? Ten off the UPLOADS. If you cannot control, what content is being uploaded and I think forcing platforms to take responsibility as publishes in which. Britain is making some moves towards now is a is a vital sort of first step. Let them get away with it. I mean this is incitement to violence I mean it's incitements, and we have laws against, and and so we know we need to enforce laws we have. We need noodles, so is on us as citizens as well. I mean this is one of the things I think is on us as citizens to put pressure on our lawmakers and. And get laws changed, and this is on us. It's interesting. Is that trump and others name restriction are going after face, have antipathy towards technology, which is I was like they're your best friends, Fran between twitter and facebook you should like. Throw them a party in the White House complete with McDonald's hamburgers. It will be great like you know by the way they like that food so good luck, but so, what? What do you make of that? I mean it's just it's just interesting, isn't it? That way that it's across the aisle now and I think a year and a half ago. The biggest threat facebook saw coming from Europe. That's true anymore. I think the United States. Now we'll see. Do you think I think there? Whereas! supervi- mile, wide, and deep as we ever were on everything this is. Hired all kinds of lobbyists. They stuff I'm seeing now is really interesting. I'm spending a Lotta time in Washington going no every time. Someone I hear all their arguments. I'm like that's not true. I just sit there and tell legislators is not. That's not true, and they need to look at this, and they need to do their job, and which is which is hard because a journalist you're like. Why am I advocating? But it's not advocating it's like. Don't have people lie to you about what they're doing. And what's interesting is at the heart of it. I think a lot of these things can be wonderful. Like can be great like a lot of the a lot of it. It, I, you know. I Love Twitter I. Know I'd love full communication, and what's fascinating is is the is the push back on. We can say anything we want like we should be. It's the they they had. They tie themselves to first. Amendment, when this has nothing to do with the First Amendment, it doesn't mean that it's free. Speech is not free speech. You don't have free speech and it and you're not a public square, and you're a private company and to try to tell citizens. These people are billionaires off of your data. It's not they're not helping you. They're helping themselves and hurting you and so that's the message I think that's. True I mean with. Ones, which was he came last week. So one of the things which is if we find most painful here in Britain, is so. Ex Deputy Prime Minister. Nick Clegg. Tell me about nick. Called me I'm waiting by the phone nick. Is here. Have you asked him for an interview now? I should I should. Say Funny I assume. Last week because I find at the new New Statesman okay. which a niece left wing magazine here? There's a friend. He done an interview with this guy before friendly interview. He's giving them an interview. He's not gonNA give us. The ladies aren't getting the interview nick. Not Delayed. He's real three. Docile to my dad talk very personally and it in guy who attacked facebook before correct or had been. Yeah question. You know he's a Liberal Democrat. He sort of gave speeches against monopolies and the back story to Nick Clegg is that he was in this You know centrist party the Liberal Democrats and he helped David Cameron he didn't get enough majority to. To form a government and nick, Clegg's party propped him up and he would say well. He moderated some thiab harsher policies and others would say well actually. He enabled them to carry out this. You know we'll start program, and and he'll say reneged upon all of his campaign, and it devastated the Lib Dem's. They hugely lost their the the membership ship. Anyway he loses loses his seat in parliament and he you know he's. He trots off to Silicon Valley to take this job. And it's just. It's he out? Sorry, sorry, please go. To cynicism of it, the cynicism over. Somebody and the reason he take Tokyo personally he took my ted talks. Personally is because you get a point of text or something. My colleague plaintive text from him, but he took it very personally because he's hit back. I find this He. He went on the BBC last week to spread actual misinformation because he turned up this panel event two weeks ago, and I sat in the audience and asked him a question. And what we know is that during the referendum facebook was the site of multiple illegal acts Achaia that took place so these campaigns used facebook to break our electoral laws, so we we controlled money in our elections. That's one of the basics of of our electoral laws, but they discovered you wanna spend any amount of money on facebook and nobody will know. And so we've we've got these investigations going on at the moment, but our electoral commission has concluded that two campaigns broke the law and break the law by a massive amount. This is massive electoral fraud. And intensive. What the big picture is of what exactly happened? During the referendum of how much money was overspent of who was targeted and and with water ads, et cetera is this facebook has all of that information, and that's the thing that's refusing to tell. Parliament's and Nick Clegg is was passionately. Anti breaks it so the idea somehow that the company he's now schilling for and covering for is somehow implicated. He's just gone. This sort of you know gone on the defensive and when I. Started about where the is, and he said to me very crossley. De Information Commissioner has the data as it isn't a question about Cambridge analyst. Go I'm not accusing Cambridge Politica of hijacking. Brexit is not. There's no suggestion, but it was Cambridge. ANALYTICA so you just failing to, but he's using that. He's deliberately answering the question, which hasn't been asked by saying well. There's some people who say there's some conspiracy theorists who say that Cambridge Irish. Gold is brexit. Let me tell you. This is absolute nonsense. Nobody saying that. He you know last week. He was here in Britain and he said that in the BBC reported and Bingo. There is earning his money for his boss. Now. He wrote an essay to them was pretty appalling. Sorry Nick Nick I open minded. Let's have lunch I'm always charm by British accent in any case. What. I'm listening. You know what? Always good to talk anyway I couldn't. Which is important to you interview with marks numerous. I. Don't think there'll be another though in that case. What do you imagine? Will happen now. Which one of these companies do you think needs most legislation and then we'll finish up. In the United States because you're right, it has to be done in the United States. United States I don't know really. He told us all kinds of things. Where Marxist will never be able to come to Britain or Jack Dorsey or the Google guys, or whatever? It's just also terrifying I mean I saw Jack Dorsey and events a few weeks ago and Asked him how you feel about the fact that you. The president's United States looks like he might start a nuclear war on your platform. How does that? How do you feel about right? And you know the fact that he breaks your terms and conditions every single day, and you don't do anything about it. He's a news maker, right? That's their argument. Even have just says pretty difficult, and they kind of Emmy's dies difficult in fairness. So, what would you okay? That's final question. Carol if you're running facebook, slash twitter sash, Google, what would you do? I mean it. Some of it is just money. You know you know what dating I find. Is that this These biggest problems are so big and we're training our in La La. Say One of the most compelling arguments I find with facebook is the. One in seven people who work in facebook moderation work on German content, and that's because in Germany. There are laws against hate speech, and so they've got to enforce it now. Colleague worked out that if you employ German levels of content moderation, deliberately, it would minister tiny. Half percent of facebook, turnover or something I mean just employ more people and pay them properly, and you did see Casey Nunes piece on the content moderation. They don't pay very well exactly. People probably give them prompting psychological. Yeah and you can just have more of them. They should be working for ask. Does there is no argument? There is no excuse that is just bottom line is just failure to take responsibility for more people. So. More people? Things I, they we. We just don't trust them to do the right thing, and that's the sort of imperative of legislators. Legislators are the ones who really have to step up I think and and again that's where I think it comes us to. As people citizens to be paying attention to this carol. Sued by one of the bad boys of Brexit. That's the reasoning which has got near so this just this one day within twenty four hours of me reporting about Steve Bannon's connections to the man, he might be off. Future Prime Minister looks like he will bill future Prime Minister Boris Johnson. I have a torrent of articles about me. Unleashed Tony's right wing blogs and get a legal letter from Arran. Banks who is he is Nigel. Is Fund. He's one of those guys who called himself. The bad boys brexit. And he's it's incredible. He's suing me the definition. of threatened to sue me for that my tedtalk. Wow, so he citing to talks I, gave him. Public was the Ted Talk. The other one event called the convention and it's this really chilling way in Bersin. So politically motivated million ask can try and silence journalists through litigation. We had it with Cambridge Eilika. We had with facebook. And our and banks and banks is not going after the Guardian. He's going off to all Ted. He's going off because he can't. Because it's an American organization, he's going off to me as an individual and Yes, he saying me because I said in my Tedtalk I said I'm not even here we go. Let's just say it again. You can add this one to the bill. I said so aren banks use this. Was it was it? It was his connection to Cambridge Analytica. That set me off on this whole story and I subsequently offer. I broke the big Cambridge analyst story last spring in the summer I did another big story about which is I got hold of a stash of emails, and it was about how Arun banks had been making these covert trips to the Russian embassy in London in the lead up to the referendum, and he was offered gold and diamond deals by the Russian ambassador, and this is the Russian ambassador who's named in Robert Mueller's indictments as being a conduit between. Essentially, communication channel between the trump campaign and the Kremlin. There's something just I just want to go into very briefly after the referendum, Aaron banks and Nigel farage continue travelling between London, and then they were, they were on the trump campaign, and they still going into the Russian embassy here these connections between these brexit is between the trump campaign and between the Kremlin You know there in black and white. For two years after they would be making those visits to the Russian embassy arm banks lied about this. He said he had one lunch with the Russian ambassador, so we publish this stuff and I call him and parliaments also in in an official report also published all of this stuff. So it's just intimidation just trying to get. Timid ation but. It's still something I have to take seriously. I have to have a law I mean it's just I. Say and is just bullying. And as I say, it's in coordination with all these other elements who go after me in this with these like nasty attacks, stories, even Boris. Johnson. He was finally asked about this relationship with Steve Bannon and on this radio show, he said Oh it's complete codswallop. It's complete codswallop, not what they call me. My you know it's the this is the Nikkei. I get from these people. You've got a nickname. If we believe in the freedom of the press, and we believe that it's important to have a free and functioning press, you know we should all be horrified at this, and it's just another example. It's exactly what trump is and calling the press, the enemy of the people that say well. I was just GonNa say Hello, I'm the enemy of the people. Yeah, exactly the enemy is some people clean, and as I say, sort of litigation is extra weapon you can use. Burston and you know I've just dial. Multiple. Ones but this in particular that they're just going off to me as an individual. Is this particular nasty so carol? Are you still a tech? Do you still love tech? Because it started off that way? I have so many attacks. and. It's been a really really tough couple of weeks. But, I get this amazing support on social media? And that that has been you know the the. The resource of social media to sort of to communicate this story been really vital so. You know I can see the utility of this stuff, but it just scares me. I mean I. Think. I go back to that. You know that sort of. The alarm I felt when I found those Nazi. Results and the alarm I feel about what's happening day today in Britain and in in America, these other countries I mean we should all be really really chilled a what is happening in the world and I care about that. I kind of I feel that I'm in a position to try and do something about it, so I feel this compulsion to try and do something, but it you know is difficult, and it has a personal, and you know having all these different people and individual and companies coming off to me at this on this very personal vicious level. Is You know I I got it just it's just halt is home. You know that many of whom, but here particularly this sort of conditions right wing media which I have to deal with is really tough, but the end of that in the United States. You know they're risen American citizen now. Made Him. I know something recent immigrant know. Rupert Murdoch. Case you're interested and that gain I mean this is the thing is we haven't even talked. Is the the connections transatlantic connections here are so strong and so more multitudinous and up the money which flows between states and between Britain, and the way that we're kind of bridgehead between the fall right in America and the. The far right in Europe and in and you know, and in Russia which supports the far right in Europe you know is of really key aspect of this, and we can just see the way that brexit weakening our ties to Europe making us more prey to trump's America. Your America is there any glimmer of hope? Do you think through legislation through SMART? I think I. Think I think that's I think there have been certain get I. Saw knock down the House that Netflix stone him entry, and that was the first thing which cheered up ages She leaves off. That you can you know we can overcome some of this stuff, but it really does take you see the attacks on her. Look at look at. PB people those appalling. Need people to step up and yes people to. Take on the fire and I get why people don't WanNa do that, but actually this is you know as I say like people in Silicon. Valley really needs to look inside. So, what's your next focus? Well, it still it's this. I mean the links between the far-right. Still say there's still so much the Cambridge Analytical Story which. Reported. And in Britain this. Mutates. Changes form so that Niger Garages New Party the Brexit Party. It's now using pay towel to try and circumvent the electoral finance laws, and you know two weeks ago. I did not just over weakness one week ago. I wrote I did a story about Boris Johnson's links to Steve Bannon I mean this stuff isn't stopping. It's absolutely going on right now. In real time, and it is incredibly reported here in Britain so I haven't felt able to sort of just step back in. My bed. Take it on this team right so you will persist, so I have been a yeah until. Finally crackup! You're not gonNA crackup. To have. A great journalist and Anybody who says different? We'll have to go through. Q. They don't WanNa go through. No. You know me and Megan Makino after back. He was doing the militia ethridge. Do you know about that? No it's lesbians. Right and you just come over here. You got plenty of. Will. Thanks again to Carroll cad water coming on recode decode and thank you for listening as always. You can follow me on twitter. My executive producer is Eric Anderson at Eric. America, my producer Eric Johnson is at hey. Hey, es J., don't forget to subscribe to pivot with Cara Swisher and Scott Galloway for fresh conversations about tech business and more every week. Thanks also to our editor Joe Robbie will be back here with another best of recode decode episode on Monday tune in then.

facebook Cambridge Analytica Cambridge Google Carol cadwalader The Guardian Hillary Clinton United States reporter Cambridge Analytical Dot Com trump Ted Mark Zuckerberg Britain Steve Bannon America salesforce writer ANALYTICA
TWiT 711: Your Pain is Their Business Model

This Week in Tech

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

TWiT 711: Your Pain is Their Business Model

"It's time for tweet this week in tech. What a show at bodice here. Larry maggot and father, Robert balancer. I gotta ask father Robert about pope Francis. First line of code will also talk about the new Google stadia DARPA open source voting system and Apple's big pivot. It's all coming up next twit. That casts you love from people you trust. This is tweet. This is to it this week. In tech episode seven eleven recorded Sunday, March twenty fourth twenty nineteen your pain is their business model this we can take his brought to you by butcher box better. Meet for a better you free from added. Eight abi-aad IX hormones humanely raised and delivered to your door for twenty dollars off your first box and two pounds of ground beef a month for the life of your membership free. Wow. Go to butcher box dot com slash twit and enter twit at checkout, and by atlassian, atlassian software, powers the full spectrum of collaboration between IT teams and the rest of your organization. Visit atlassian dot com slash IT to see what I can be by giving their products try for free and by digital ocean. The simplest cloud platform for developers teams deploy manage and scale cloud, applications faster and more efficiently with digital ocean. Sign up today and receive a free one hundred. Credit at DO dot CO slash twit. And by capterra, find the right tools to make an informed suffer decision for your business. Visit capterra's free website at capterra dot com slash twit. It's time for tweet this week in tech the show we get together and talk about the big tech stories of the week. Joining us I like your new Mexican flag over your shoulder there. Ed bought from what does that say wild? No. It says Wilco a will get it. It's a Wilco album. It's a Wilco poster from when they played at the Santa Fe opera couple years ago. Nice. But it kind of the new Mexican flag sort of and I put that they're just so that you can visual cues. Remember what state and it's not Arezzo give me credit though for knowing that that's the new Mexican flag. But I did know. So thank you all the way from Albuquerque. Wrong, so wrong. They'll wrong Santa Fe, New Mexico. Thank you. You Z creator of the Ed bought report on ZD net. Actually, some other guy created it. But once they realized it was called the bought report. They said we'd better get. Great to have you add longtime friend going back to the early days of divorce and computers in the early ninety s. It doesn't seem so long ago. Larry maggot is also here late in his career. He was covering windows. Ninety five CBS news or eighty oh. And connect safely dot org. Larry great to have you thirties. Mike is not working might dare. It is my wife left. You have something to do with this. I know it's working. That's the old military progressive repaired technique. Yeah. Apple twos. Yeah. Hey, wait a minute. Holy cow. My eyes deceive me all the way from the Vatican. Where the pope just wrote his first line of code father, Robert balance air, the digital Jesuit. What brings you to our neck of the woods? Oh, the teleport or the people actually we just perfected it. And I've got all my bandages. So I think it's pretty well. It's yeah. No fingers left behind probably like that. So it is true. Isn't it? I saw this on slash dot the Holy Father wrote a line of code with co dot org. Wasn't the most advanced line of code ever. Did something did something absolutely did something. This is we've been pushing this more and more because this pope is actually amenable to using things from the modern world. So he actually the up. He was the first pope to really use Twitter. He was the first pope to really use social media. He actually uses our app the app that. It comes out of our office. Clicked apprai- that was the click to pray to pray of that's actually a Jesuit thing. So yeah, a movie took place in Indonesia. It's right. I have to say it looks like he's using an ipad pro, but I could be wrong. He has many different types of tech that get put in front of him. He'd actually doesn't own any of that. There's none of that's kept in AS Roma's doesn't keep any of that in his office. It's just brought two minutes required. Three young students and hardy Portola v who is the head of code dot org. And here's the line of code that. The the pro Francis wrote set screen parenthesis for or pour La Paz for the piece where the torpedo and quote parenthesis. He didn't forget his semi colon. When he executed it showed that text on a commemorative plaque bearing the statement. Computer, science empowers young people to create peace in their communities. Everyone should learn how to harness technology to use their creative power Puerto La Paz. Very different than my first line of code hip with print something print. Hello world. The first the first piece of code that. We have we suggested was ten God. Twenty go to ten. Funny. And he done that. I think the world would have sat up and take notice the world did set up and take notice earlier today when the Torney general sent a letter to congress summarizing the Muller reports conclusions, and I thought the letter was very interesting. It did acknowledge that. In fact, the Russians had attempted to this was what the Muller investigation was about is about Russian influence in the election. They indicted a great number of Russian nationals along with Trump's campaign chairman, but for other problems other things or no was he? Yeah, he was indicted by the Muller investigation. But most importantly, according to Torney general bar there is no evidence of. The Trump organization the Trump campaign or the president himself in in any way, working with the Russians in the evidence. Read you the letter because it's a little complicated. They the evidence enough to actually indict no that was for the obstruction charge. Larry. Well, no, that's a different story. The, but I'm gonna say did I don't know if he said, no evidence. So. The word there. Yeah. It's actually new though, they'd be lifted. Yeah. We're doing this show. Yeah. So I think a very complete, and I think everybody would agree a very thorough investigation over almost two years by Robert Muller, as we know the report does not, and this is in the attorney general bars words does not recommend any further indictments. There are no sealed indictments yet to be made public bar said that the special counsel investigation did not find did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the two thousand sixteen presidential election. There was no well in Trump's words, no collusion. Although that's not what they found. But I wonder how the explain the Trump Tower meeting. I mean, well, they they don't and you know, this is not the full report. This is a summary that they turn general sent to congress. And I'm sure we'll see more the special counsel did not draw conclusions. In one way or another again, I'm continuing to quote bar as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction. So they didn't Dr conclusion one way or the other. Did not exonerate. He's specific is this the special counsel states that quote, while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime it does not exonerate him. However, I think it's pretty clear that the the report let's Trump in his campaign off the hook completely indefinitely says there was an attempt to influence the election by the internet research agency, the Russian troll farm, and the and the Russian government, but that the Trump administration and the Trump campaign had nothing to do with that descend his head despite many attempts by the Russians to get in touch. They did they did they didn't apparently get in touch. So I think that's a big deal in it. I think it has something to do with technology. Because of course, it was Facebook that was used in fact, honestly, the one company has not let off the hook in this case is Facebook. They don't mention Facebook in the Muller report. Well, they might they don't mission the summary in the summary. But you're right. It probably will have another report. Yeah. I mean, this is an important inflection point. Because now everyone should reset. And listen, if you've got a celebrities if you've got personalities either saying that this one hundred percent exonerates, the Trump administration, and this should forever. Put this issue to bed. Don't listen. The other side if you have people were saying, no, no, no you have to read between the lines. And this is absolutely a conviction. And this is an indictment of the Trump administration. Stop listening to them, right? You need to start listening to the centrist positions who are actually going to take what's released of the mullet report. And hopefully because it completely exonerates the president of the United States. It will be released in its entirety because there's a lot more. There will be much more out of that report. This is the quote from the bar a letter the special counsel did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts the efforts to influence the election and hacked, by the way, the Clinton campaign the Democratic Party despite multiple offers from Russian affiliated officials individuals I should say to assist the Trump campaign. So that's a that is a very unequivocal note is worth reading, right. Also Lia in assessing the Fano right below in assessing potential conspiracy charges a special counsel, also considered whether members of the Trump. Campaign coordinated with Russian election interference activities, we know that Manafort is accused of offering polling data to a Russian oligarch the special counsel to find coordination as an agreement tacit or express between the Trump campaign and the Russian government on election interference. So because there was no tacit or Lissette agreement. Well, he was looking for tit for tat. And we don't have that. There is there is no express agreement that the Muller investigation that frankly, I will do that doesn't surprise me. Anyway, big big big news. And I'm sure there'll be a lot more to reporting. But I thought we just passed. The interesting thing is what how this could affect the politics. Both the the tension for impeachment hearing that are likely to come up or maybe not. I mean, I think it's going to be very interesting political the next few weeks. The Democrats have got a really sort of rethink their strategy. But in terms of how they go after the president. There's still plenty of reasons that they can go after. The president. But I think they have to rethink how they go about doing it. But if you look at the indictments diamonds that had to do with this all were of Russian nationals, the special counsel again from the bar letter found that the Russian government actors successfully hacked into computers and obtaining Nelson persons affiliated with the Clinton campaign and Democratic Party organizations and publicly disseminated those materials through various intermediaries including WikiLeaks. And of course, a special counsel brought indictments against a number of Russian military officers. It was not at which because of that the way read it is there's one in income uncontrovertible fact that you can take from this the summary release, which is mother did his job. And he did it with integrity you want single leak out of out of him. There wasn't a single saber rattle out of his camp. This was not a witch hunt. This was not any of the things that it was accused of being this was a person who was tasked with the job and he did it to the fullest of his abilities. All right. So let's put that away because that's also been a huge contention over the last two years this. This was an investigation that was asked of a man of great honor who has done a great service for this country. And he just did it again. Okay. What's next? And we know that there's another election coming up in two thousand twenty and that the Russians would probably not be slowed down by this report in any way. It will. Right. We'll start all over again. If it hasn't already starting all over, that's that's the technological side. That's technology. A technology story for us, which is we've spent two years looking at this. And we are no more prepared for information warfare than we were in the two thousand sixteen election. And what what are we doing other than holding a hearing every once in a while, I'm bringing a CEO to task for some privacy, invasion? We should actually be looking at. Well, how is this actually affecting the the election process, and it's too late for for the next election? You know, we've only got two years where all ready within the cycle. We should have been looking at this two years ago in incidentally, the news lately has been Facebook did infect talk to Cambridge Analytica knew what they were up to long before they talked about it publicly Facebook staff, according to the BBC flag came regenerated fears earlier than thought three months earlier than thought cranny US court documents that was in September twenty fifteen more than a year before the election. Facebook said it discovered this December twenty fifteen three months later, and there was even evidence that a Facebook board member had met with Chris whittle who was the whistle blower, Cambridge. Politica in that timeframe. So somebody who's not off the hook by any means is Facebook. And I think a lot more about this interesting. I was actually at the event when Facebook announced their app ecosystem. And if you don't believe me, you can Google this because Kenneth wisher actually documented this I asked the Berg, aren't you worried that if you open up your ecosystem to independent developer, there could be some kind of a security breach. And this was back. I think in two thousand ten and he didn't have a good answer. You know, he really didn't have an answer to an obvious question, which you know, what happens if you if you open it up to the world and Cambridge analytic apparently prove that. Yeah. Chris Wiley, not whittle. Chris whittle somebody else, Chris Wylie's the Facebook. I'm sorry. The camera general the co whistle blower who we now know met with some Facebook. I think there was one other development this week that is probably worth noting which was that DARPA the defense advanced research projects agency, I believe that is short for released. They're developing a new voting system. Yeah. Starts online voting system. Yeah. Voting system, and the fact that it's not being done by a for profit company is at an that. It's open source is those are both good things if not online, I should say a electric voting, but it is attended the companies like diebold debold will adapt. Adopt this system. I don't know if they will. But it does have a paper trail, which is something that computer, scientists social security experts have long said has to be included in any voting system. Darpa has spent a lot of time and money on this. We have we talked about it on security now actually reading they spent ten million dollars, which by government standard. Sounds like a lot to me. But and they're one of the things are going to do is they're going to bring voting machines with this new system to def con hacker conference. They have that voting village where they bring voting machines. And of course, all of the voting machines and current use than getting hacked last year. Right. They're gonna be publishing source code online. Bring prototypes of the system to voting village this summer and next. So that hackers researcher will be researchers not only be able to freely examine the systems, but they'll also be able to conduct pen tests to try to break into great. I was a little skeptical about until I actually started digging into it. And I realized the company that's been contracted to do this research. They're not trying to make a product. They will not bring a product to market that will be sold. They're making the reference for it. Right. And that's what I actually really liked there, especially it's the fact that the willing to bring it to Defcon, that's what generates best practices things. Like what we discovered last year from the voting machines that we'd disassembled where you have hard coded credentials. In firmware, you have swap -able SD cards that could actually allow you to run a completely different operating system hardware little things like that would never have passed peer review. Right. Well, if you have a company that's willing to bring it to Defcon would they know people will break it. That that inspires a lot of confidence. They're going to do to basic voting machine types of the I will be a ballot marking device that uses a touch screen. So the voters can make their selections that system won't tabulate the votes, but will print out a paper ballot. So the viewers voters can review them before depositing them into an obstacle scan machine. Their explanation of why DARPA I mean what you know. There are defense. Think is exactly what the kind of thing that DARPA should be doing. It's advanced research. The optical scan system will print a receipt with a cryptographic representation of the voter's choice after the election. The cryptographic values for all ballots will be published online. So you can go as voter in verify that your ballots there. And that the vote was correctly tabulated open source, verifiable and transparent. I think this is great. That's what we've been asking. For a second system is an optical scan system. That reads paper ballots is what we do at Cal. We get a paper. Ballot. We Mark it by hand kind of one of those punch cards you've seen and and that'll bring that system's gonna come to Defcon chats, no dad's anywhere. Let me ask the panel. How many of you voted at a polling place this last election? Oh, I did. Oh, you did. Good for you. It dropped off by absentee ballot. Pulling was it in Santa Fe. I've been out valley absentee ballot for the last what Salek too I really liked going in. So what I do is. I'm market at home. And then I go to the polling just in case, I'm traveling in in I for I wanna make sure, but I, but if I can go to the polling place, I love going there. I do too. I love what I used to consider old people. But now, they're my age. The cops are now kids, I know the people at the polling place. Criag vaca. In New Mexico. We have early voting for almost a month before the election. So although we can do ballot by mail or we can fill them out and drop them off at the county clerk's office or you can fill them out and drop them off at one of the early voting places. But there's a half a dozen voting early voting locations around town that you can go to so it's it's pretty convenient. We just went and voted, and then you know, went and had breakfast at one of our favorite restaurants around the corner. So it became a social thing. We'd read a few friends with us. How often have the ballot drop off at the library? They cuddle big mailboxes us put your ballot right at the library that secure. Yeah. Yeah. To answer your question. Actually, I'm reading further at a motherboard the voting system grad of a larger Dr program focused on developing, generally, secure hardware. The problem program called system security, integrated through hardware or firmware or sits was launched in two thousand seventeen it's hard to do secure hardware. And so it was aimed developing secure hardware designed tools to build that hardware. So that hardware would be impervious to most of the software attacks prevalence day, and there's a sixth if Stith Lord. The ones with the funny faces in the double sided, you know, that's not really true blender which is part of I can tell if very, okay. Oh, no. It's actually action apparently in this is the quote from sip. It software has been the way people try to solve the problems because sufferers adaptable. There are some hardware security solutions already, but they don't go far enough and require too, much power and performance and wanna fix this in hardware. And then no matter what software vulnerabilities you have attackers couldn't exploit them. The problem is most hardwares gullible. Did you know that most heart and has no way of distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. And you heard about the defibrillator hack with him intimidated this week nice. Yeah. Another these these machines are all over the embedded if Linda sheet, it's like it's like pace maker to the patient's chest, and it comes to the radio remote control fill. All you have to do is to spoof the codes on on your own radio and go controls somebody's chest. And that brings us to pawn to own day. The pony own a week. It was a big one lot of hacking going on pretty much everything was cracked and a lot of it by one team the floor. Oh, acetate team a Motte common. Richard Jew who earned. I think close to four hundred thousand dollars out of the four hundred fifty thousand dollar purse. They let's see the the pound own. You know this event that happens at Vancouver. Every years part of Kansas west the contest started. I love this play by play the contest started with a team of Floro acetate talking the Apple's safari web browser they successfully exploited the browser at escaped the sandbox by using an integer overflow in the browser and a heap. Overflow to escape the sandbox that earned the fifty five thousand dollars these these guys hoard exploits all year long because they're gonna make enough money in three days in Vancouver to. Defunct the rest of the year. Then they came back to target the oracle virtual box in the virtualization category. Their first attempt failed. But the second attempt successfully used ended deter overflow in a race condition to escalate from the virtual client to pop calc at medium integrity. Whatever that means. It wasn't the race condition that caused their failed first attempt to their memory leak was working, but they're code execution failed. Everything align in the second attempt, teaching another thirty five thousand dollars and three more master of Pohnpei points. So so do you really want to know what pup calc means? Yeah. What tell you? Well, it's the idea is that if you have successfully breached the security on somebody's remote machine, you're you're able to execute arbitrary code on there in the typical way that you prove executed owed on their Michelle and the calculus to the the calculator app to Oko on their Shane calc. Up calc. Did you know that father Robert is that's a good debt is thank you advise, you go, I the calculator would not be the first open. One of the other one of the least harmful things that they can do. But it's an absolute proof of concept. Hey, I was able to run code that was sitting on your machine, right? And you you were able to stop me. So that's the idea would pop notepad and write poems. That's mary. Jo Foley, right? Told her story. Yeah. That's right. Po no newcomer on Hodson on hot dot on dot in of star labs also targeted oracle virtual box used integer under flow to escalate from the virtual client to execute his coat on the hyper visor at medium integrity, and he netted thirty five thousand that's actually scary that that that I I wanna see how he did virtualization environment break out of it so virtual boxes the free one. It's less likely used by. I mean VM where I would be more scared. A however a like a lot of people use it because it's free. And I'm surely, oh, a tesla owner you're going to be happy to get there. Oh, yeah. We're going. We're going through. All okay, we're going through them mall. Standby VM ware actually busted VM ware. Out of Matt loro acetate earned seventy grand seven points for getting out of the VM where workstation so in one day, two guys hundred sixty thousand dollars not bad, and then Phoenix and court targeted Apple's safari now there was nobody broken. Oh OS ten but able to get into safaris probably good enough with a Colonel elevation. They demonstrated a complete system compromise simply by creating a malicious website and browsing to it triggering adjusted time jitterbug followed by a heap out of bounds read and then pivoted from route to Colonel via time of check time of use bug O CTO you to those in the know, unfortunately, it was only a partial wins since apple already knew one of the bugs using the demo. Well, that should I'm sorry. So they got forty five grand. That was just day one of Ponant own fire. Fox also owned and yes, tesla was pawned, but the Ponant ninety red one it was a model threes agape gave driving. They gave him Tesla's for b wait did they gave the same test? So that the apparently they gave him the title of it. They hacked into all they did though was put a message on the browser in the big window. And all right. So I be better if they had like heck earned free, tesla turn the car off or something. I wonder if for the thirty five thousand dollar one or if they gave him one of the high end ones. No, I don't know if you wanna know I'll see if I can find it two years ago. Tesla came to Defcon, and they they've actually brought a car and ask people to bang on it. Yeah. That's great. In fact. That's why these companies are happy to help pound own pay worse. It's worth getting plus right to get to know where you're worried a little bit. At about the fact that these guys are finding these exploits sitting on them until the next Ponant own. Well, that's certainly preferable. To the alternative, which is to find those exploits sit on them and then sell them to a nation state that will use them or to a one of the variety of of hacking companies that exist to serve the needs of usually thorough -tarian states. You know, Egypt has been known to to buy a lot of these exploits, for example, to you know, to spy on their own people so holding onto these things to to cash them in at a contest like this is just a hell of a lot better than holding onto them. So that you can sell them to someone who's going to use them maliciously or even leaky them to potential copycat half dry. Right. Although I mean, there's no there's financial incentive to rhodium that one spend pay a lot of money to these guys and then turn around and sell it to write highest. One comment that's worth making on the whole virtualization focused, their it's it's sort of a red herring to think about these as just virtual box VM ware as applications that run on a machine the real thing that they're looking for is the hyper visor that is increasingly a part of the security infrastructure of any modern computing device. The idea is that the hyper visor is the sort of very low layer of computing that isolates that a process that's supposed to be secure from your regular desktop processes that you're using. So hyper visor is a really core part of modern security design, and so so targeting those is a really effective way of finding the most serious security flaws, and hyper visor is built into all windows. Right. I mean this into into windows ten now. Yes. Yeah. And features like the with the new version of of windows this coming out in the next few weeks. There's a new feature called window sandbox that is based on the hyper visor, there's there's a there's an edge application guard Beecher that allows you to run a completely secure browser session that is managed by the hyper visor, and so it's it should be completely isolated from the rest of your computing environment. And there's even new application guard extensions for a chrome and fire. Fox I recall reading I haven't been able to test those. Yeah, that's right on that edge technology. It doesn't take away the need for VPN in terms of fumbling in the middle accessing what you're typing it. No, no, no. It's a this is a completely separate thing. This is a basically a way to run an isolated browser session. So that for example, if one of the. Browser exploits that they came up with here if they were able to attack if you opened that militias websites doing again in a in this secure browser. It wouldn't be able to jump into your system because it's protected by the hyper visor, right at least it should be except for the out of bounds. Exploits to execute outside of the memory that particular virtual insurances today to pound on Arthur Qurqus of exodus intelligence targeting Microsoft, edge used a double free bug in the render followed by a logic bug to bypass the sandbox and that got him fifty thousand dollars. So of course, the good news is that'll be fixed imprint sandbox, oh, that's the edge. Santa's not that's not the window sandbox feature that hasn't been released yet. That's the that's the browser sandbox. It's a part of every modern browser that prevents a low integrity processes from from jumping to a high Integra. Pretty process. You're basically, it's you know, nothing is supposed to be able to get out of the browser and into, you know, the file system or memory or whatever. But that's a that's a browser designed thing and something different from what I was just talking about got it now is the I love these events because I love to go. They need a stream these on Twitter. Absolutely. This is this is fun. But there's a problem. And the problem is that while these are fascinating to see researchers at the top of their game do things with security features that we never thought they could that's not where the biggest threats coming from the biggest threat on the edge of the internet are embedded devices. None of which will ever be patched. And I say that I say that knowing that, you know, some will obviously. But you've got eight incredible tens hundreds of millions of devices that are currently on the internet that are running old from where that we have known exploits for and they will never ever be patched and as an attacker. That's where I would be focusing. I don't need a zero day bug in order to cause damage on the internet. I just need ten million webcams. That have never changed from their default credentials in the last poll known in Tokyo in November they did an IOT Pondo. So they are trying to address this. The problem is there are millions of devices by thousands of manufacturers and some of which longer exist, but those devices will still be powered on. They will still be connected, and they will still get on. So they on in Tokyo to the apple watch the Amazon echo, the Google home, the nest IQ and the Amazon cloud Cam, but that's a fracture. I mean, those are all big bestsellers, but that's a fraction of the total IOT out there. And frankly, the real problem is these no name white box. You know, Chinese-manufactured IOT devices that are proliferating in every home. I don't eat to own your computer. If I owned your router get you all the traffic coming in and out of your network. I don't care about owning your browser because my username it hadn't in and Philip. Yeah. Three. Serious. That's in my case, the default, default, I hope I did. Okay. Let's say hard coded credentials. So that they can always get in. Oh, that's nice. That's. All of my passwords to one two three four five seven. Oh. Oh sneakily on. Nobody'll ever gets that or or just change the a to the at sign nobody ever guesses that lead speak. It's your friend Floro acetate was the team that hacked, the tesla they use the just in time bug in the render to break into the tesla browser and display. Their own message doesn't say with the message was I hope it was obscene. And they get the car. You get a new car the Floro acetate the big winners of the four five hundred forty five thousand dollars awarded at pond on this week. They got seven three hundred seventy five thousand per day. So and they did that. Well, I think last time too. They're they're really it's just these two guys Richard Jew and a Motte comma, and they are here's their show. The picture let's give him credit with the big Poneman trophy. That's enough money for them to, you know, live another year the live till the next phone live. Well, nice job. Don't know. I have to. I have to say though, kids. You want a good job with a future? Learn how to crack. Yeah. But even how to fund guys how many how many people have tried to pretty brisk group of people hat. What was it Hecker one there? So there's a number of organizations that by these exploits zero diem is one that maybe a little sketch. But hacker one is a little bit more benign because they end up. I've pretty sure giving the exploits to the companies that create software for fixing they had. They were the ones that publicized this young guy kid from Argentina. It's like nineteen years old. I hacker to make a million dollars know run year with exploits. So I think there's money to be made. You're right. You got you got to be good. And in general, there's money to be made at least at the good career in technology for curiosity. I mean, whether you're a hacker, not just the whole security street hungry for talent. Absolutely. A hacker one is an interesting business because. They are essentially funded by the company's not by bad guys. Not by autocrats in you know, other nations, but by the companies and its place for somebody to go who wants a career that they have a whole page for hackers. A hacker one that tells you how to start enjoy. Yeah. All three pack all the things use your skills to make us safer internet. They've got a leader. Should we see the leader board? Here's the top hacker one hackers and their earnings. Oh, I guess it's not earnings. It's just reputation today is new has the highest reputation score. I think it's pretty cool. Right. This makes fun the best hackers. I know you will never be on that board. They don't want to be on this Lord. Yeah. That's the point. They don't want somebody knocking it there. Yeah. Now. All right. Okay. Look, there's there's nothing wrong with getting into security field is burgeoning field of will be worth a lot more. Most of us, the vast majority of us, and I can't myself in this are would just a level above script. Kitty, I can use exploits I understand it's pretty adept tack. I'm adept, but there is that level that's way, above me. And I will never be the people who actually come up with the original expedites that I will end up using you know, how to put together wire shark and map, and and and and do stuff, but they're an ice. I think it's almost a genetic thing that they just kind of Intuit where to look people like the Google zero day guy Travis campus, Ormond, Normandy tavist who is like he's he said, I was in the shower, and I was thinking about it. And I said, wait a minute. And he found I can't remember what the bug was. But it's like tavist shower thoughts. I. I think there is a certain skill set. That's fascinating that some of these people have. Well, and I think the difference between people who are good at something and people who are great at it is the difference between a scratch golfer and bro. Yeah. And you know, there's there's a lot of scratch golfers in the world. But but and and and yet you watch them try and turn pro and it's not easy. Right. It's not easy magic. Here's the tavist tweet from 2017 a ha- I had an epiphany in the shower this morning and realized how to get code exotic last past four point one point forty three. You know, if you're if you're thinking of this stuff in the shower and going, oh, I might be better than a scratch golfer in the shower. I was like I think we have hot eggs. That's that's I honestly, I I know why you have a pekingese in the shower. It's the hot water, it's open. It's dilating the. So what take cold showers. It's better that way going too far. Here's here's the picture of the floral acetate winnings in the trunk of the tesla as they drove off look at those three laptops trophy. That's one hundred thousand dollars. Tesla had that much trunks. Red paint cost twenty five hundred hundred dollars extra. Yeah. You pay. Wait. Why do we test loners suckler? That's for. Sure. Wait. Did you did you pay the extra five thousand for the like the rent rate? Calipers? I did you did you. Yeah. Yeah. I loaded it out or coded baby. I figured I love you gotta keep that resale value up. Let's see we were talking about this before the show because you bought recently. But I bought a December before it went down by six thousand dollars. You kinda got screwed kinda I knew when I was buying my tesla three years ago, the model exit just come out, then I was really subsidized. Yeah. And I knew that, you know, he made up stuff like the air filtration system is bio can handle biohazard save you from anthrax? It has that biohazard symbol on it. That was like a few thousand dollars extra. I know that was BS that I was never going to drive through a biohazard, but you could have Leo I wanted to support you on. Yeah. And I thought well, this guy is a pretty good marketer. Well, I'm having second thoughts. But it's ally. You can don't get me started on my I love the product. I loved the car. The company is worse than fake in your diesel engine emissions at better than that. Yeah. Oh, look. They're great car that. I I gave you a lot of credit for making electric cars. Cool. Yeah. He definitely did that they used to be pretty boring. Let's take a little break when we come back. We'll talk about Apple's event coming up tomorrow what we can expect Ed bott is here. He is the king of I everything tact. But I think especially I always think of you as the expert on windows the Ed bought reported ZD net. Thank you. Thank you for being here. We also love having Larry maggot on. He is at CBS News Radio where he helps normals understand technology. Yep. Not an easy task fit fam- tomorrow morning. He'll be on the Air China explaining you don't do that live to you. Yeah. Well, some of it stuffing. You it depends on what what are you talking about six AM tomorrow as with stations? They'll they'll call me up, and they'll after they ask you. Yeah. They they call me up. Larry, what are we going see at this? Apple exactly. And I'd say Darnall. No, no every time. They they always want to know that. Always have to say the same thing. Like, we'll apple doesn't say no one really knows. But let me tell you what the rumors are talking about the mullahs report until today. Right. You just speculation Beckley never stopped free. Apple to the pretty apple leaks. They're better than more leaks. Apple does leak. I think there's a lot more interest. Sadly, also hear Mr. father, Mr. father, the Reverend Wright, Reverend father. Everybody loves Padre J father, Robert Palacio, the digital Jesuit. He is on leave. Leave your always I'm always on duty. Do you carry? I'm just wondering because I know in the movies, the priest when he comes running in with the last rites the last race kits. Do you carry last rites kit with you? I do not you can't give me the last option the final auction if I could. But I would find stuff here. I to anoint me and stuff like that. You just get some olive oil from I always carry a spare battery I always carry a spare power cable. From last rites different form of I just curious. You learn you'll learn. App. You could use. Yes. Anything on? Apple. You did tell us though, that there is an app that the that you guys have the fray quick Capri. But it's not click to give last rites at what is click to pray. Click dupree. They actually made the national news or international news. A while back. This isn't the Pokemon. Go thing I had nothing to do with that. I had absolutely nothing to do with that this this. The pope actually signed up for it about a month ago, and our usership shot up from a few thousand a day to several can ask the pope to pray for you kind of you know, last right? They did the screaming before the car thought to crash on autopilot. If that pops up on screen, Trump Trump. So if you click to pray you click, and you get a prayer. Well, it's sort of. Okay. So people who who just want meditation time it can bring you through a quick five minute meditation com dot com for Catholic. Nice. It's it's nothing groundbreaking. The the big thing was that. Pope Francis signed up for an account. So now, you could actually ask pope Francis. Can you be my friend online? I I do that. Yeah. Could open the pope's. This is the pope's per profile, and you get you could get his prayers, and you can pray along well enters all of that in personally. No, he does dictate. It you type it is that how it works of. There's several widgets never going to say in the background. Make that happen this. Let me just put it this way. There's the secrecy the Vatican much better than out. Good security. Yes. Actually, it's really really good. Yeah. Have you seen my box of meat? I I'm afraid to ask what that is. Literally, literally bucks. Refrigerated? It is this is my butcher box. I don't know if there's actually any meat in here. I think we took it all home. Rachel ray. We the audience gets to eat pork chop. And you get a party shopping. When you when these came I got three of them. There was pandemonium in the office. My son came running down the hall said you just got three giant boxes of meat put your box. I love we have butcher bucks. We had some sirloin tips. The other day that what a stew this made. Put your box is better meet for you. It's meat free from antibiotics and hormones humanely raised quality beef chicken and pork live pork delivered right to your door. You you you can choose from curated boxes, including a mix of high quality beef chicken, and pork or customize your own bucks. If you know, you know, we've been we do Tuesday taco night taco Tuesday. Right. And we always use the ground beef from our butcher box. It is you can you. I if I serve something different. Everybody would know it's grass fed grass finished. Yeah. And so the meat I don't know if you've ever had a grass finished meat, but it is it's it's what meet used to taste like before factory farming comed- is frozen at the peak of freshest, so come. You frozen in an individual vacuum packed biodegradable packaging. I really like how responsible they are with the packaging each box is shipped to the carefully calculated amount of dry eye. So it will be and we had a lot of fun with the dry ice. When I came by the way. So it'll be frozen. And it was it was frozen solid. There was no question about that after reaches your doorstep. Of course, if there's any problem, you can immediately call butcher box, and they'll and they'll trade for you grass fed grass finished beef free range, organic chicken, the pork. I can also sing its praises. 'cause I make Friday night is pork night at the LaPorte household usually will make a a kind of I call them because kid won't eat unless I call it Venus schnitzel, but I found out the pork. I read it in fry it, and it's delicious, and it's so much better with the pork from butcher box. Because again, it's heritage bread, pork. So it's like meet us to taste butcher box believes in a healthier food system where everyone has access to meet the way nature intended. No antibiotics, no hormones humor. Mainly raised. You'll cook with peace of mind. Knowing your eating healthy, high-quality me. And look at that bacon. You had me at bacon. Build your own box. Choose exactly how much you want for the things you love or let them curate it. So you get something new every time choose your delivery frequency. And of course, there's always recipe cards inside help you quality meals. Lots of tips we're going to get you twenty dollars off your first box. My mouth is watering and two pens of ground beef a month for the life of your membership taco Tuesday never had it so good for free twenty. Let me say that again because that is a great offer. Twenty dollars off your first box, plus free two pounds of ground beef every month forever for as long as your membership is active co to put your box dot com slash twit and her twin at checkout for your extra two pounds of ground beef and twenty dollars off your first box butcher box. I'm doing it. Right now. It is so good. Go to butcher box dot com slash twit and enter twit at checkout. Larry you come back, and you tell me, you know, they're they've presumption is, and I think this is true that. The new luxury for a lot of people isn't a fancy car or or gold jewellery. It's good food. Good wine. Good experiences. I experience I think we've really changed. How we think of if if you have some discretionary funds, you don't spend it on Rolex anymore. Right. And I think that that's these companies are coming along Saint people don't wanna go to apple box anymore. Apple box Applebee's anymore. No applebees. Okay. Nothing against Applebee's. But everything you get there is frozen, and then microwaved and then put on your plate and served to you, you might as well, just stay home. And do it yourself and people realizing that and I think they're liking cooking again. I I actually like cooking and my wife is to is instead of having a meal plan shop because we are busy. You get you say I'm gonna I want to make that that and that today, and then you get the box. I do agree that there's there's there's issues, and I think the biggest issues a competitive issue because you know, food is well aware of what your box and hellofresh, and yeah, I wish I going to faithfully buying it off the steam table. Yeah. Port Robert has the bad spaghetti every day because there's a it's actually a law. So if you have a house that's of a certain size of people who are not related by blood. You actually have to an institutional kitchen. So I'm not allowed to go into the kitchen. Oh. And you know, we're in the middle of Rome. But all we get every day is. At least I'll then it's whole L Dante until they reserve it for dinner, and then it's soaked up everything. So we'll take up a collection to me the greatest thing in the world. And I do it almost every day as I have. We have a big green egg, which is Kamado of its thick ceramic. I fire that up every day. Pull out a nice cut of meat, and I often will SU Vida it effect. It's the nice thing about the butcher boxes frozen. But I pull it out. I SU Vida the night before it's ready to go throw it on the grill. It's ready in five minutes. And there is I mean, honestly, there's no restaurant that could beat. We have a electron key lock system at the Vatican, and the Caribbean view in will know, so that you can get into the different parts that you're supposed to get into. And I had that in the first week. Super secure now, I can get down into the apartment reserved for visiting lay people, and and a few of them have kitchen you go down there and good on. Good. You're on TV right now. Tell me about the wall around the Vatican. The will. Yeah. People always go. Don't you have a wall in the we have pieces of wall. Right. Yeah. And they're very nice. And then they fallen people every once in a while. I went there. There was nobody key PB out. No, no. I mean, you the Swiss guard or they're met the pope the pope, you can find a picture of me in the pope, actually, Microsoft just met with the pope they had one of their representatives come over about a month ago. So it's it's becoming a place. New York Times Germain a propo- our conversation today in the Sunday Times human contact is now a luxury good screens used to be for the elite. Now of voiding them is a status symbol. It was only a matter of time in the great Nellie bowls on this one people are relishing face to face contact concept. I kind of knew this was coming. I really felt it's been coming for some time that we were getting burned out on social media that turned out social media was anything, but social it was really anti social. And I've never felt in August. I killed my Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and tumbler accounts, and it was the greatest thing I've ever done. Not that. I actually go out and meet people, I just stay home. But honestly, I think I was feeling ill from social media that the the, you know, our friend, Trey Ratcliff has just written a new book about the malign influence of social influencers on Instagram now Instagram, I came out trae who's a great photographer said this is changing it's like all of us. We get these very optimistic looks at what we think is happening. And then the truth sets in he thought Instagram was going to change people's vocabulary. The degeneration was going to grow up with a visual vocabulary is said of a verbal vocabulary. The people would get used to imagery and expressing themselves through imagery. And that was so exciting, and it's been ruined by people selling, you know, model selling sport tea, and it's really anyway. So this is an interesting change US's students show for Amazon j yes, I know who you're talking about my book on on Elec. Tron communications in nineteen eighty three. And there was only within single chapter on security or privacy or hack in Russian hacking. But I mean, I was so up to mystic for so long. I mean, all the way through the eighty ninety s and the early part of the two thousands. I just thought this was a wonderful thing. And I still see the positive, but I don't think many of us really fully appreciated the negative of overuse of technology until the last couple of years in one of the things that was just in in the chat room from Alberta. Guru is this a first world problem? But it really is. Now, it really really isn't. In fact, this took hold in a lot of what we would call third world countries before it took hold in advanced countries because electron of communications, we're actually more Vance and parts of Africa before they became completely ubiquitous and say the west so this idea of being able to communicate having your primary channel of communication. Not be face to face is not limited to social media, social media, really exacerbates it. But. There's something that we need to do in order to look at what kind of relationships. Do we actually won I can communicate? But too often I I conflict communication with relationship and then not the same. Well, we were talking before we on the air about cardinal tog leaf from the Philippine. But I was at an event at the Vatican where he spoke about some of the things that are going on online among his very low income. Yeah. And you can you think about the problem that we're having on Facebook. This is life threatening stuff that Neath families are going through. So I I we'll problems, you know. Absolutely. But here we are in the first world, then nothing more first world than the scandal of the rich. Parents buying their way into college on yours. You were talking at bought about Livia Jade, I know what you're referring to. Her mom, Laurie Laughlin is accused of spending significant amount of money to get her into USC was it as a soccer star or a crew star. I can't remember it was crew crew. She went up being the manager of the crew team had never done crew never road. But is a major Instagram influence her with I think more than a million followers. And of course, here's to over post. And this is the one you were talking about here. She is at USC in a paid partnership with prime student Amazon showing how everything here she bought on Amazon, including the kind of tone deaf OJ initials. Now, that's her. Initials, but she is at USC, right? So I'm just saying that's a little see. But there's that doesn't understand what's wrong with that. Okay. Should we explain that OJ was a famous running back at USC before J Simpson. He actually had some trouble. He got into USC by running as fast as he could. Visible life later. But at the beginning is accused of spending this blows me away half a million dollars to get her daughter into you. Here's the thing about this whole story, though. Which is yes, it's it's horrible. And it's terrible. And there should be outrage. This is not new rich people have been doing this ever how many buildings on campuses. And I'm including some of our universities like Georgetown, Boston College are named after rich benefactor's who had legacy children who came through because the buildings named after mom or dad, it's this to to pretend like it's only happening now in it's only happening because of social media influencers that's very disingenuous even deeper that when you think about all of the test preparation grasses, you could spend thousand dollars legitimately preparing your wealthy kids to get into college. It poor kid. Can't do. I'm just glad that Livia Jade now that she's at a good university is studying hard, and and working and and learning and well, wait a minute. What is she? Doing it looks like she's mostly posing for Instagram actually fed that she doesn't care about the top of the story was when they said, well they have to call her back from the private yacht. That was run by one of the regions. Because was there for a party? Okay. Well, yeah. Yeah. What was going on that? Yeah. All right. Carson how much are your parents pay to get you into Harvard because I know you didn't get it on your own. Carson Bundy bench. They bought a bench. Couldn't afford the bench. They just got a stool. Twig. All right, Monday tomorrow, apple having a big event and some have pointed out, I think this is probably accurate that this is going to be the day. We look back on that apple pivoted from being a hardware company to being a services company at least that is their goal. You agree. Ed. Oh, I think that's it. It's probably a good a good line of demarcation to have here. I think what punctuates that is the fact that they announced three products last week on Twitter that normally would have been the kind of products that would have gotten five to ten minutes each onstage at at next week's event. The new new ipad, the new new line of ipads, and new I max new new I Mex one other. They also reduced the price on the extra ram on. An I MAC pro. But your exact. Right. They didn't do these hardware announcements in public. They just slipped him in. They've done that before. This. Pots. And yet, and so the idea they've been clearly focusing on the revenue that comes from services from monetize ING their base of. I think it's one point four billion apple branded devices that are out there. And you know, that said if you can if you can get ten fifteen twenty bucks a year out of each one of those devices that's not a lot for the owners of those devices, but that's a tremendous amount of money for for apple. And so the idea if now if you go from ten dollars on average to twenty dollars on average, you've just, you know, you're up to twenty billion dollars a year in revenue, and that's staggering law. You're actually probably talking close to ten dollars a month though. I mean, the, you know, the the revenue potential if you think about how often do the average person by a device, probably a computer every three or four years a phone. Maybe every two years if you can get somebody to subscribe and. Have a steady stream of revenue that that's you know, the difference between selling a razor and filling razor blades. Right. Right. Right. The the point that I was making those in a lot of cases apple share of that is only thirty percent, right. And there are a significant there. I think there are a significant number. There's a bell curve right of of the distribution of services income from individual owners. There are certainly people who you know, they buy it up every once in a while. And that's it. They don't spend another dime on the other hand. There are people who, you know, replace their phone every year and spend one hundred dollars a month on apple services. So you get those in there. But but I'm just talking about the share of revenue that apple gets to keep. Revenue in the service business last year forty billion dollars. That's a thirty three percent increase year over year in it's fifteen percent of the total revenue, and I'm sure that it will increase each year, and it won't be long before it's more than half of the couple's review, especially since iphone sales in Maxine of download ipad sales of slowed. They need to do. This people aren't buying new phones new computers every two years. But this is this is a very hard pivot. I mean, Microsoft made this pivot fantastically success. It didn't they they did. I mean over the over the past five years their stock has outpaced apple by a lower margin because they made the commitment to services, but the already had the infrastructure in there, they already had, Azure, they already had three sixty five. And so when they made that pivot it made sense now, they had a cash Cowan dynamics, but the entire Microsoft ecosystem was set for argue that Microsoft on Microsoft, had its, you know, strengths in that kind of business class. Loud. But apple has a strength that they can base this on which is in content. Consumer content sales. They've got apps they've got music what they're going to launch tomorrow. We're pretty sure is a news subscription program, which could magazines and newspapers, according to I the will somebody the Wall Street Journal will be in that bundle. But not the New York Times or the Washington Post and TV product that initially won't actually make them much money because it'll just be repackaging content from other people, but ultimately has the potential making money because they are making a lot of original content. And there's also a rumor, I don't know if this is true, it's kind of a lesser rumor that they're going to do a game subscription service that will include paid games and that they will pay the game publisher a fee for every minute played. So that the that apple collect a certain amount of money and then distributed, according to which games you play them. And that gives apple absolutely a leg up in services. This is something they already do their terrible user, frankly, apples terrible. Cloud services, and it's smart of them to focus on content. It's smart, but the money that where they actually want the money and services, it's not in the consumer side. It's on the enterprise side. You see that's one don't want it. Eat against Amazon, Microsoft and Google. But that's where the money is you have to compete against them. If you want that service money, I don't think Apple's ever. Enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. They've never been strong in the enterprise side. But it just strikes me that that that if they can figure out a way to first of all lock in to the extent possible their their hardware owners that alone the market and ecosystem, right? That is so valuable that nobody ever wants to use a windows machine or a Samsung phone, and what are the things that always struck me when when apple made the decision to make the ipod available for windows, Mary, the ipod with very controversial Steve Jobs fought what made it. It's what. And I always wonder why they can't do that with some of their other services. Why for example, there if an apple music for Android, right? Because there is there is apple music is on Android, not as messages back belief again. But the thing is though when Microsoft made the pivot they did something that was incredibly controversial in the windows world. And that was they basically deprecated windows they did. And I said we'll be wherever customers are even if Assad Lennox right and people thought the Microsoft's done, but that's what allowed the pivot to work. Do you think apple can say? Okay. Well, you know, what the iphones been big for us. But we're not gonna that's not the first thing push anymore. Apple might to the exact opposite of what apple we'll do. You agree at that, Microsoft that was huge for an unpredictable by everybody that such an Adela would say, no, we're we're going to be open. We're going to be everywhere customers want us to be. I think it was the inevitable result of something that had started probably five years before such. Dela took over as CEO. You know, you you need to give Steve Balmer a lot of credit really or for having put. Absolutely you have to get steep bomber. A lot of credit for having for having given such an Adela the executive position and building the cloud based businesses that made it logical for him to be promoted to CEO the reason he was promoted to CEO was because he had been given the freedom to to to build those businesses. He ran as your before. He was CEO. Right. Exactly. Right. Exactly. But bomber never would have made that it. I mean. Yes, I think that's I think that's what happened the board said. Okay, now, we're ready to pivot. Yeah. Thank you. Steve for your service. Go buy a basketball team. And and even though they did a very public executive search for the next CEO as it turned out. They made the exact right choice by promoting from within. Well, the other reason that bomber was. Allowed to buy a basketball team in southern California. He is the disastrous Nokia acquisition. Right. You know? That's an Adele argued against from day one as I remember he was dead set against it. Right. And and one of the very first things that he did when he came on as CEO was to start the wheels in motion to to unwind virtually all of of that. So that today there is no windows phone software there the Nokia is no longer a part of Microsoft, Microsoft is not building. There's no serpents phone, and they're in there probably won't be. No. So I don't forget you Donald sterling credit for I never bomber with ability. He was a guy who owned the the own the Lakers without caught up in that scandal, that's clippers clippers scandal. The bomber wouldn't have made the pivot to eighteen months. So this is a series of. I understand the patriots may be up for grabs. Up for grabs. No seriously. This has been one of the few really truly successful business. Pivots that you point at the tech industry. It's it's historically a very difficult thing to do and a lot of credit to whoever bomber Nadal whoever. But do you think Apple's trying to do something of that magnitude? They can't well every large company in in in Silicon Valley has to eventually face. The fact that they have a dominant product that is, you know, both their strength and their potential downfall. And and so disrupting your own product disrupting your own key product is really important. But you know, apple doesn't really have any choice. They've seen the the slowing in sales of their hardware products for a number of years. And although those businesses are still they are cranking out as much revenue and profit for apple as windows and office were for Microsoft back when Microsoft was preparing to do that pivot, but the writing was on the wall, there's no growth there anymore. And so you have to find another place where you can get some. Mm growth, the company that hasn't been able to do that at all is Google. That's his right, which continues to be a company that you know, they they bought Motorola, and then sold it. They keep trying to figure out ways to get into the enterprise, but they're not successful at it. They keep coming up with frankly, interesting hardware products, but they don't turn into real businesses. Google fiber has been you know, at at best a middling business, and you know, by some measures of failure. And so there's still a company that is, you know, eighty eight percent advertise it feels like they're thrashing. They are getting into education. I mean, they've done pretty well with with with it in education. But I don't know how much second they're going to kill in bucks. You're gonna kill Google. Plus they're going to kill what else aloe there. The largest startup they run intention. They want to anyway, we're gonna talk about Google speaking this week, which is stadia in just a little bit. But before we move on. I just I want to ask the one question, we we I think we do see tomorrow apple making a pivot from a hardware company to services company. We mentioned that the the kind of shining difference between what Microsoft's done and what Apple's doing is Microsoft's become more open as a result of this pivot. They become more agnostic. You don't have to use windows. You don't have to be on Microsoft hardware by any means apple it sounds like he's going to double down on its ecosystem the whole point of apple services. I think you were pointing this out Larry is not to support Samsung or Microsoft, but does support apple into courage people to get locked in apple services is this strategically the right play. It's very different than what Microsoft did. We could say Microsoft's been successful opening up. Apple's not opening up is that the right thing to do. I think globally. It's the wrong. Play. I mean, they may be able to do quite well in America and are dominant and other parts of the developed world perhaps. But if you're thinking about the entire world, do you think about the developing world, it's a deaf Samsung owns the rest of them because and also Samsa had a range of products that a range of price points. There is no such thing. They cheap I phoned there. Ironically, Samsung tried and failed with the ecosystem play, right? They had Samsung milk. They had Samsung store they had Sam. And it was horrible milk was their music case, you didn't know wasn't actual dairy products. It was it was there that you can only put milk in a terrible name. But but so Samsung was not able to do the system play. No. But but they've been able to create a variety of products at a variety. That's right. We only hear about the ten the high end ones here. But there are Samsung phones out there that you can buy why people call the radio station all the time with questions like I've got a Samsung J three. Yeah. What do you think? I am. I don't know. I never even heard of it ever is gives it away a deal. You know, it's an Android four phone that you know, you can get for free. So no there's a lot of Samsung apple lift. Lifts phones, a great, but feller pixel sewer MFN, honest with you. Honest with you the best phone I've ever used is. Yes. Ten plus. This thing is amazing. I mean that you know, you could you could argue if it if it better or not quite as good as the apple, you know, ten s but the point that you have the fact you have to have that discussion. Right. You did apple clear winner in two thousand seven with no question. Yeah. I bought a phone course, it was fifteen hundred bucks, which apple would love to sell me a phone fifteen hundred bucks. Actually, I did think I did by phone from apple. Maxed out tennis was in fact, the same price as the Samsung maxed out ten ten plus Mexico. But it has a terabyte of storage. It has twelve gigabytes of ram iphone four it is a powerhouse. It's a it's a desktop class process. If more in my better screen now for me, one of the reasons I like the ten plus because it's very, customizable, which apple is not. And but I think a lot of consumers don't want all of that. What do you think is the apple ecosystem play a strong play? Or is it the mistake? Yeah. It no. It's it's a very familiar play. If you look in the telecommunications industry at especially American telecommunications companies they have historically been driven by a metric called AARP you ever everage revenue per user. And that I think is what apple is going to with. You know, they've been really focusing on their upgrade plans to bring sample which are essentially leasing, right? You're you essentially wind up leasing your device from apple zero down, and then, you know, thirty five or forty dollars a month for the hardware, and then on top of that they're going to layer some services on them. And that has historically been the way that every every cell phone provider in the United States at least has worked. And it's also been the way that the cable companies have worked you rent the box hated upsell. You don't didn't Microsoft get a lot of heat because essentially that's what they did with windows and office was turned into a subscription product. And people hated that. Well, and the reason that, but you know, Verizon is a is a very large company. And and and and but that that has historically, but I'm not saying that they're being like that they're trying to become a telecommunications company. I what I'm saying is that they're following. What has historically been at various times in the history? Recent history of technology, a very successful business month. You look triple play that. Comcast has right. God, I hate try. I know I have I have somebody else's internet phone system. Don't have that. Yeah. So this is this is a perfect example of it because if you've ever become cast customer if you've ever priced out their services you discovered that it is tea typically cheaper to buy the bundle. That has all the things in it than it is to try and put them together, you know, a little piece or two at a time. They priced the individual thing so high that they basically say look for only ten. More. You get all this stuff. I have their high end I have their highest internet service that I can get where I live, and it turns out that basic cable is actually not very much more than that. Exactly. So I stick with it. Even though I I hate it incremental. It's incremental what's interesting though, as my freshman is that that triple play is not cheaper than if you went to three different providers. It's only it. So it's really more pitched when you go to Comcast. Hey, add this for ten bucks at this for ten bucks. But it's not if you put it all together any cheaper than using the phone company and Comcast for instance. Right. But no. But who's going nobody does that? Oh, and now they've added security systems and not going to get Mike caucus bills up to two hundred dollars a month easily. Yeah. Yeah. It's ridiculous. But they've done that they've they slowly boiled that water, apparently, this is Tim. So if you say that the ipod or the iphone was Tiv jobs crowning jewel services are Tim Cook's crown jewel, he began pushing current the Wall Street Journal pushing services hard in late twenty seventeen and he's been saying the apple will double service revenue by twenty twenty according to the journal at monthly sessions. The fifty eight year old CEO has peppered the team with detailed questions. He wanted services team members to tell them which apps for selling. Well, how many apple music subscribers stuck with a service? How many people were signing up for I cloud, I club by the way is not a competitive offering compared to Google Drive. Microsoft one dry. This is the problem. Okay. I. A stunned by my they need to compete in the enterprise, if they actually want to make a lot of money on services. The second problem is as Ed brought up they are in AARP, you company, they sell premium products at a premium price, and I always get the largest margin. Because hardware is fantastic. When you go into the service industry, it is a commodity market. And you have to sell at scale, and they are not set up to do that. I cloud his his his Norway. It's going to be a replacement for one drive or Google Drive or any other kind of drive for that matter. So they're not set up. I mean, I get why they're doing it. They aren't except if you have an iphone. It's a no brainer you flick, a switch, and I clouds in there. And then when you fill up the free five gigs. It starts saying you're running out of room. Do you haven't backed up in three months? It bugs you until you say, okay. Okay. I know because I'm paying three bucks a month. Like, the Clinton Justice department talking about Microsoft when you're talking it very much. Like bundling the browser except there's much less justification for it. I wonder why apple have not been. I mean, they've. Been some rumblings about antitrust. And apple, but you never only person has criticized apple is Elizabeth Warren, and it was an afterthought after she said, you should break up, Google, Amazon and Microsoft, right? Oh, yeah. Apple to you went over. Well, and Phil everybody loves apple nobody wants to break up apple. And yet if you're an if you're trapped in the apple ecosystem is the worst kind of monopoly. Oh, helpfully and what's amazing to about my? And I I'm you know, I some of my best friend or apple either. And what they do with a live only in that ecosystem. It wouldn't occur to my MAC friends to buy anything other than an iphone youth anything. They just cannot Jay's eight it's a no brainer. And you know, their companies like Netflix and Spotify. Both of whom said, we're not gonna pay the apple thirty percent anymore. We don't wanna pay that anymore. Spotify's put out a website saying time to play fair. Apple they've been taking potshots back and forth. And this is my skepticism fo-, you know, for example, in that apple TV does not do well with Roku, one of one of many much more. Expensive. It's much more expensive. And it's not as good. It's not as versatile and the question on the other hand, if you're locked into Apple's ecosystem if you're an IT, it's the only device. So that's their leverage. Right. You're going to get that through that two hundred dollars at a somebody because we'll wait a minute. All my movies are night chance. If if that's the world you're in. But I'm saying, but when competing just stand alone against Roku, they can't compete quality. Yeah. And of course, there was some speculation about whether apple music would do well and has done. Well, there was a lot of concern that it wouldn't be able to compete with heated quite well done. Well, Spotify would say they compete well because they charge us thirty percent extra. So we have to tack that on. So we cost twelve ninety nine a month. Whereas apple music is only nine ninety nine a month on the. I tuned store because they're don't there's no thirty percent Vig. Yeah. So that seems you're right. It seems kind of anti competitive, they're not they're not a monopoly. So maybe that's not monopolistic behavior. They're only fifty percent of the market. They're not competing against Microsoft or Amazon or for this. You know, how they're competing again Amazon. Well, I wish the. Close to what Hessel Amazon's terrifying. It's. Yeah. Amazon Amazon figured out a way to get away from that thirty percent, right. They fight load some of the app at least I don't know if they still do Bill if you're looking at the kindle app on IRS or the audible ad, which is also owner, you can't buy books or music. You can't music you have to go to your browser by their exactly. And that's what Spotify is done. And that's what Netflix is is doing now. Netflix says we paid this could save was eight or nine billion dollars a year, but not paying the apple thirty percent. You know, what's fascinating to me. Is that in this sense? Apple is they're playing two roles. One. Is there a payments processor? So they're sort of like MasterCard and visa, although they have MasterCard and visa as their partners as well. So they're layered on top of that. And they're also running the some of the infrastructure for selling and servicing and updating the apps. They're so they're so those are two things that are of value to any provider. The real problem seems to be the the the arbitrary nature of the thirty percent fee and how it's thirty percent or or nothing and it goes down. If this is a recent change down the fifteen percent now after the second year in this, right? And that's and that I think is to bring it back to what tomorrow's thing is going to be this is. Yet another way for them to sort of ease off on the the thirty percent still make you know, still make significant revenue on it. But allow some of the the other players to participate more fully here's in the dream. I'm going to watch for tomorrow, and it will be a little side note. But it might be the most important thing apple announces tomorrow apple is doing a credit card with Goldman Sachs. And I think that's the real play here because it's one thing to sell music or rent storage space or offer TV shows. It's another thing entirely to take a cut of every transaction on the platform. And that's ultimately what apple is going to do. In fact, apple Goldman Sachs, their partner in this also has a Bank and online Bank, right? And I would not be at all surprised for apple to do financial services. And at that point that if we're really is a walled garden. Net is absolute locking. I mean it fits their business model. They're always they've always been about owning the core technologies behind the products. And if if they are now a financial services company. Yeah. The I mean, it doesn't make sense for them to be paying that percents. Apple pay. They get a smaller cut than they would as a credit card. Right. They get a bigger cut. Of course, if you get Apple Pay, plus the credit card, you get even more. I think that's the announcement to watch for does that will make my I get an April full story about apple into the health insurer to if a number of years ago. I would have ice shirts. And the the reason it would work if because the demographic of people who own apple are actually, probably one you could fill the insurance to a little bit cheaper and still make money, but it was a joke. But now, you're telling me it may not be a joke. Yeah. And I I'm not talking about Google. Did this a branded credit card? Yeah. Somebody else's running the credit card. It's minor standing we'll see tomorrow, and maybe it won't become clear, but they will announce a credit card tomorrow. And I think it will not be a brand credit card, but it will actually be apple financial, you get you get apple goodies. And of course, you you'll get points back get points towards an iphone, right, right? And it will be made out of titanium and unicorns blood. Oh, it'll be they'll definitely have a gold card. Well, of course, you'll you'll you'll use it on the phone gold rose gold. I want the road ever use your when you go to a grocery store you go to safely use Apple Pay. I never use my credit cards anymore until they don't work at. I mean it, you know, apple sold us as being faster is exactly the same. As pulling out a credit card numbers are fun. Sometimes you have to sign like I used the apple watch. What do you make me sign for this is not security? What is this? Yeah. It's fun. And you know at first I didn't use it. Because people gave you a funny. Look the clerk would say what. But now, it's so accepted. Right. It's worse. When I go to whole foods. Now, I have to open my phone up and show them the Amazon prime QR kind. Google pay. And what I like about could go pay if you get an instant receipt. You know, Google apple team does. Well, I'm sure I use this this thing for payments. It's called cash euro Europe. Euro, you're actually, it's amazing. How many things I have to do that? I can't do electrically. They they just don't God bless Italy. I'm I'm serious. It apparently works the only place my credit cards work in in Rome are at the McDonalds. Yeah, which yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I I want something other. You have a craving for a Big Mac. I don't I don't think the burgers chicken nuggets. Every once in a while when we are in Japan, we went to a lovely bento restaurant. Each of us. Lisa are sixteen year old and I had a lovely bento box. They slowly pushed their bento box over to me, see all three of them. And then we went next door to dis. Afford everything is so expensive. Yeah. I want sushi, but you're restaurants are still cheaper. That are after this is true. This is true. Getting better Italian meal in Italy. We have coffee. Yeah, I'm Kito. Now. I can't go to Italy. I'm actually not allowed. Our claim. You know, sorry. You cannot go to Italy. It's not allow our show today. Brought to you by atlassian. Oh, we are at last in house. And I'm proud to say those words it all started for us with a license JIRA, which is an agile development tool developers know, very well. We use it for project. 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So I came in early on a was it Tuesday or Wednesday to see the Google GD. See announcement was Tuesday ten AM at the game developers conference. We knew that Google was probably going to announce a streaming gaming service. They'd try project tra- stream that showed people you could play assassin's creed odyssey and a browser on a chrome device Chromos device without that was pretty cool. They announced stadia, and I have to admit. I bet this happens to you to maybe not Ed because that is a hard headed cynic. But when I watch these keynotes, I get all excited to oh. This is going to be the greatest thing ever. They showed how YouTube will be the heart of this the that you could stream a game plan YouTube and there'd be a button on there. That said to the viewer come on play the game to join the game at the same point. Do you be able to save game states and share them? So they could join the game right at the most critical part. They showed how you could play on devices as dumb as a chrome cast ultra of seventy five dollar Dongo you plug into your TV and suddenly you get the Google joystick, which by the way, brilliantly work, just like chrome cast. It didn't connect to the Dongola connected via wifi to the stadia cloud. They showed how they would have backbones at had it custom-designed AMD GPU's were working at ten tariff flops faster than a PlayStation for pro or an Xbox One. X I got. So excited. I said take my money Google, and they said, well, no, we don't know what it's gonna cost or when it's going to be available. So thank you. And actually breaking news Google just announced that they're going to be killing stadium. Just reminded me. I remember when Steve Pearlman who of the founder of web web TV going on live. I'm looking at article, I guess it died around two thousand twelve but that was an early example. And I was blown away to time because that was his pitches. Well, you get the irony of this. This is nothing new nothing new at all on life failed. Because they realized that they had I have enough hardware for the peak times a day, but it would lie fallow. Almost all the rest of the time like the electrical grid afford it. Yeah. They sold their IP. I think to Sony Sony. Also, Buckeye Sony is going to have a phone as a streaming gaming service. Microsoft is an S next year. They'll do streaming gaming service shadow does this shadow a shadow, that's pretty cool. Steam does this team to go? You can stream a Microsoft does this with their XBox anywhere. So it's not like you said, not new I think they really want to push the YouTube integration that whole is. Youtube. It's almost like twitches eating. Yeah. Yeah. Although they were quick to point out. How many billions of hours people watch gaming on YouTube? But it's different. Because I I know I watch our kid he watches Minecraft videos, how to videos, oh, you know, if he wants to play overwatch, he'll watch the videos and learn and then play the game people watch twitch to watch live action. Right. I think the name stadium is also telling because it kind of implies a stadium like in east sports, kind of took me a long time to get my head around the idea that people would actually watch other people play games, then it occurred to me if PIN sports I mean, we've been doing that all our lie when I turned to the corners fortnight because first of all four nine has a feature that if you get killed, which I did almost instantly every single time you can continue to follow the guy who killed you. And then the guy kills him all the way up to the top, and it's fun. And then I watched it was a charity thing with ninja and marshmallow playing concert. Yeah. Oh, no, no, no, not the concert. He had a concert is another thing entirely. But no watched them. It was at e three last year, and it was really engaging and fun to watch. The the commentators were good. They have to work on the on the biggest problem. They had is they don't know as much about this ESPN does about sports because they would always miss the kill shot like the go there. Oh, just oh, I wish seen that. But they'll get that. I thought it was very engaging. So I do think it's fun to watch. Oh, yes. He is. Obviously huge people authorized people play poker. I mean, the poker's fun to watch other people play the hole card camera. It's a single thing that may poker big on TV because you know, you have information the other players don't you if you know what handy's bid. But I mean, it it's not it's not gaming per se. It's the same thing with poker or watching anything. That's a sport that people don't care about the funding the personality amusing, why people watch twit a lot they love. Leo. You know, it's when you find someone who your hate me or. Yeah. On youtube. It's the same thing. I I've watched now hundreds of hours of gaming on YouTube because I I made a conscious effort to watch live gaming on YouTube. I don't like the life giving do you watch it on twitch? I watched it on Twitter sometimes, but it is in community on twitch because you've got the chat. Right. You got people giving money twitch? They've made it into something. Interesting. I think very compelling. What do you think? Ed. Well, you know, I find it fascinating that Google doesn't break out how much money it makes from YouTube. Do they know they'd never have? And so you don't know. But we're back to the, you know, the thing we were talking about earlier where Google is a company that has historically been driven completely by advertising revenue. And I think you're right on the money to say that this is an attempt to save you to to transform you. Because right now YouTube reputation is tough. Toxic. Right. And and but everything in YouTube business model, which is similar to Facebook's business model is driven by engagement, and the things that that things that the that make engagement go up are usually things that are shocking violent or controversial union. Having people make pornographic comment on children videos is something that you would find distasteful. Example. Yeah, we could find you know, we could find several worst examples than that. Even if it's pretty hard to find one. For that. And that's saying something. Yeah. But but the idea of turning it into a I mean, it's almost like they're trying to turn it into the now they've tried to turn YouTube into a TV a TV network for awhile at ending. Network Yoship program the professionals who make editorial decisions for for quality content. Fill the idea of mixing television infomercial networking, give Abacha defen- beef turned over its airwaves one day and said, okay, anybody can program whatever they want. Yeah. We have we have that. It's called reality. Tv. I don't really have a president who did well at that. And that's the thing that when I figured out that it was about engagement was when I saw streaming of a game called breast, which is the most boring game ever, but I'm kinda dictate to it. Because of the fact that you had some very talented content creators turning it into a narrative, and that's that's why like YouTube. It's a bit more finished than fame for a boring game rust, it really is it really is you sound like an old school guy. No. Prof professional an answer. Well, no, I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not take to the twenty-first age of the amateur. Leo. There are some amazing content on YouTube, and there are a lot of millionaires on YouTube who did very well exploiting that media better than most professional actor than producer VIN directors have done doing professionally still the big bucks are in professionally produced television. And right, but but the point is the kids today are watching the YouTube. That's right. In fact, I just saw a stat that there's more YouTube easily handily beating cable TV and people under twenty five. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it's not it's not a competition anymore close. Not even close. Right. But I'd be curious to know, the one metric is how many people are watching it. And how much time they're watching it. But the other metric that matters in terms of it being a sustainable business is how are they monetize? Ing. Well, I agree with you. Ed. I mean, the problem YouTube has a reputation Lee is it's a dung heap. Well, that was my point Ed bringing up the issue of the reputation, not the quality of the video as bad as that is right. It's the comments, but that and the and the and the and the environment that's bad, and it's bad because advertisers are terrified of having an ad appear. Next to something disgusting disgusting, and and the recommendation algorithm that leads you into you know, the darkest worst a spectacular failure on which is why some of the biggest YouTubers once we're actually making money on. This are no longer really depending on the monetization through YouTube. They use patriot lillies sing makes your money selling baskets precisely because then you can just ignore the comments or didn't turn them off mobile. This is study from Nielsen there. Q three twenty eighteen total audience report mobile time this mobile, but I think mobile as you know, is is where all the growth. Is happening. Forty percent of all more mobile traffic. Forty percent of all mobile. Traffic is YouTube makes sense forty. Let me say that. Again, forty percent. Invites our what what are they measured in time spent fan. Okay. The ten percent is net. Flicks. Ten percent Facebook forty percent YouTube. So however, we feel about YouTube clearly, it's got people's attention. It isn't that the way that's the way YouTube is designed you watch video. And then boom, the next one is cute up and starts playing automatically. And then boom the next thing his queued up. And and and that's that's the secret of their success, which is people spend a lot of time on it. Because you start out just watching a picture of, you know, pets in Halloween costumes, and and pretty soon, you're, you know, pretty soon, you're watching flat earth videos. Yeah. That's the real problem that you see that almost all the people who believe in the flat earth today got it from YouTube from Malati. So this is I take it back. It is glow. I I'm gathering. This is from San. Vine that it's data because global downstream mobile traffic by app. So that's YouTube of the of the total pet way. Youtube thirty-seven percent web browsing four point six percent people. Don't even browse the web on this stuff. What's app? Three point seven percent apps store and Google play. Two point one percent. One point nine is at three point seven. What the heck are people transferring over well that no that's because everywhere, but the US what's app is the choice of messaging app. So they're spending all day on what's there? Maybe they're. Yeah. They're sending pictures, Instagram five point, seven Snapchat. Well, well, but not my relatively YouTube YouTube dominates. But what I don't understand about. That is okay. Let's say that I spend an hour staring at my phone screen as I talk with people have regained. What's up? Then. And then I spent an hour of, you know, watching one video after another on YouTube. I mean, those YouTube videos are significantly more data Yemeni. They're just running in the background while you're while you're doing something else. No. I'm just saying that an hour of what's happ-, right. Is going use smaller much less. So you're right. I'd rather see our I would rather see time spent viewing than gate, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Sand vine gets the you could make an app you could make a living off of creating an app that just does curated content. You don't create any content of your own. You just you promise your viewers that they're only going to get content. That's high quality think so because that was we would saying that for years that curation was the the real skill. No one's really done it. I mean, we have playlists. But I mean to actually make a concentrated effort to say, look, you you'll service it runs on your Roku, stick, and you will only get YouTube videos that actually makes sense for you. So stadia will come out sometime this year price on known as karston son a series gamer pointed out who announces okay, some flaws major flaws in the announcement. First of all such Adela comes out and says, I am not a gamer. Okay. Who does a game announcement at GD starting? I'm not a gamer that's bad too. Literally. The only game they announced on is doom which is thirty years old. There's an updated doom soom, they're going to get Duke nukem. Exactly, exactly. They come on without games. There's no point in planning a gaming service, and they had no games to announce. Right. They had no price and look at what apple to that announcement half the announcement of their their developer standing up there showing off right? The cool thing you can do with their product. They always announce the price. Right. He always out the date of availability. This was a little premature Chris game developers conference. So they're trying to get developers to write games for it. Although if I'm a developer and Google comes to me and says, we got a new service. Are you going to write for Google knowing that they could kill the service two years later, the I mean, I trust Google for that. I don't think it was impelling pitch and. And. It didn't Microsoft say they're going to have their response to this three. Yes. Which is to just a little over two months away wit. And and it that will undoubtedly be before the widespread availability of the horn of Google stadia. So it's a I mean, it's a baby were announcement really the ultimate classic. And then the final point of all this, which I actually find really interesting variety brings this up. You could talk about how great your servers are how you're going to have all sorts of horsepower. There was a lot of cool things. Like, if you got an a very involved coop game each player could have their own hardware instance, or even multiple hardware instances per player. All of that's great. But it's still got come down this crappy frayed wire that's provided by Comcast or Verizon or AT and T or Cox or frontier and ultimately variety points out. This is just ripe for exploitation without a net neutrality rule. It's just a matter of time before Comcast says, you know, if you'd like to play those games on Google, it'll cost you a buck fifty a month because they're letting see dependent and you can destroy a game by adding another ten milliseconds of late. We would like to give you the best possible gaming experience. And for that that'll be fun dollars a month. And if you don't think the Comcast is capable of doing that. Then just look at Comcast flex extending flex is the latest rent taking scheme from Comcast for five dollars a month. You get Netflix streaming on your Comcast. But you have to have high end Comcast X one system. Right. It's a really nice stream. You got shame. If something would have happened. But this is a good example like what Ed was talking about where you just go whatever find another five bucks. Okay. I'll take it. But you can buy a Roku for like twenty five dollars. You can own it. Here's the thing. But here's the thing. If something goes wrong with your Roku you call Comcast. And they say sorry. That's you know, that's a problem with your hardware, you call Roku. And they say, well, we think it might be a problem with your network, and you can't ever get those two people talking to. Whereas if you buy it all from one place, you call one support line, and they're going to own the problem. Now, you know way Wade way because you call Comcast you say there's something wrong with the go. Oh, we upgraded that route or you can buy the new one for eighty five dollars or you can rent it for additional worst part of my today. West it ends up staying on her months, call Comcast about I just it's the thing is it that you put off the longest. I'd rather have a tooth pulled responsible for it. Yes. At least. And it's the same reason why you know, when you were saying earlier, Larry that, you know, why would someone by this apple product when the road through one is superior. We'll guess what you know, if I just get every if if I'm a loyal, apple user, I'm not super price conscious. And I know that I can get it all from one place, and if something goes wrong, I either call apple support or I take it into the genius. Are you know? An an, and that's why bundling has has been a successful business model for years because he as soon as you start a benefit of our of our platform. I'm sorry. So call Ed Bod if I have technical. Zack has edited together. Zach is Carson son. How old is he fourteen? He is fourteen he's made a video YouTube videos upcoming YouTube star it which he cut together ki ki announcements from the stadium announcement are his reactions in here. He doesn't do reaction videos. He just he just makes means so this is a mean benefit of our platform is that a single creative vision and a single code base can now be enjoyed instantly across any screen at. Port being able to play. He's not doing this. I want to point out that everybody who watched this video about Google's amazing. New streaming gaming service. Saw two things first the camera guys, but inching into the screen second. This the stream Procup right pro Cup. And it didn't do it. Just once several times this is going to be a lot of fun playing this video game. Let me tell you kids. It's. Zack. And now we're playing Google's most popular video game the dinosaur game that you get when their internet is is dead. Now. It's funny when whenever I hear a guy with a British accent doing tech announcement. I think Johnny I've. Yeah. This is the thinnest gaming service. Exactly. I Johnny really should do more on the apple thing. He's I think he's like he's on sabbatical or he's over it just on. Yeah. Goodbye. It is true that every iphone announced though, Ethan best iphone they've ever announced. This was not as I can. Okay, tried. But we just couldn't move west. So we'll Johnny Ivy on stage tomorrow. No, no, not tomorrow. We'll celebrities beyond stage tomorrow. Yes. Probably a couple of influencers Oprah implant Oprah. They've got Oprah's got deal with apple. Well, I'd be there tomorrow. No, you're not not invited or not going guy invited. But not going. I. Oh jeeze. If you give your invitation eleo, he'll hold up an ipad shut up non-transferable. Apples. I was I was like banned from apple for years. But some reason I'm I'm back in their good graces, I have no idea. Why motto is banned because they bought a stolen iphone took it apart. And the police had to be called. They're even back me one. You do one stream of Steve Jobs introduced in the ipad. And that's it forever. I think you're in the grandfather part. Oh, I don't really care. Honestly, we'll be here. Tomorrow morning watching apple stream talking about commentating on a bad at it said me. Megan Maroney, anybody else joining us Carson, just the two of us. Okay. Let's you. It'll be a lot of fun. Well, the last time we did this part of the fun. The last time we did this apple issue to take down and took our YouTube live channel off for two weeks. So that'll be part of the fun that way. Yeah. You're not allowed to broadcast any portion of their I'm sorry. But I am it's called Ferrier's commentary of a news event. Right. Do we broadcasts press conferences? It's a press conference excuse me. And did they add any value to the broadcast? Just they did nip is coming. They weren't charging for more press conferences than than the Trump administration to more. More. Now, we'll be doing it. We'll be streaming it and we'll be inviting take downs. And I'll give you my address and you can write to me. Our show today, bro. You before we do the ad. Let's do we have a best of video for because. Sometimes I know that you get busy. You have a busy life. You don't get to watch all the twitch shows you'd really like to watch. So what we do is. We take some of the best moments from this week, and we put them together. So you can see what you missed this week twits. Previously on twit. Meditation is all about spending time with yourself. Why can very easily drop down onto the floor or into a chair close their eyes drift off into bliss or they can pitch in on air. Ick. Antanas Kickstarter project called silent meditation on vinyl for twenty dollars. U2. could have received your Perry on twelve inch copy of silent meditation twenty minutes silent records silence. Twit live specials. Defiant. One place. Not a killer. It's official channels on YouTube. You will notice the plate now right there in YouTube. Five seconds. Second launch. Compelling see how excited I was. Friends at nine to five Google. They've got some debates on the pixel three eight from now on I'm calling the three the pixel three axle. And every time it rings. The rain tone is November rain. Nicole? My Twitter TV God, Jim Cutler. You have to explain this record to me. It is actual silence on records assigned. Isn't there? A side b I think there's a second side, which is also silent wanted for meditating. It was Andy Nakos pick of the week. I'm MAC pre-quake. So it's like, white noise or no, no. There's clicks pops. If you don't take good care of your vinyl. It's on Kickstarter. It's let's see what is having tonight fifteen dollars. But what's great is? They've raised of the six hundred dollar goal. He didn't guy was really not very confident goodness. They've raised five thousand nine hundred dollars. White noise. But I mean. Business. This record has not one but two silent meditations each side. Twenty minutes of utter silence. Notation though, set will there be a CD version? So I can have the silence and more clarity better yet. It's on a hundred forty grand vinyl, send me ten dollars. I will I will instruct you go into a run. Chernoff your devices. All right. All right. Definitely a first world. I kick starter is what it is. It's unbelievable. It's probably not be delivered. Right. We would. We would. Record. Right. Oh, man. I just I stopped had to stop buying stuff. Kick starter. I think the final thing was the floating bonsai tree. Which really I mean, I looked really cool. So it had a big base with heavy magma. And then there was this pumice rock with a metal plate knit, and it would hover and there was a cute little banzai tree growing out of it. So it was really cool except when I got it banzai nine included. And when you put the if you bought a bonsai tree put in there, then you have to shave the rock, so it'd be balanced, otherwise, it would just so so it was just too much work. The modern version of the late night television commercials on on really crappy cable channel. But at least that stuff came. I mean, but a lot of stuff that that ever even came is that freedom. Do you want fine? Fresh fierce, interactive LED lashes. I have a pair of them forty bucks on the other day down twenty five hundred a model thing about this one. Could probably will thing about this is I put my money down on this. And within a day of this going on Kickstarter there were Chinese knockoffs being sold for half price. Of course. Well, what were they going have the manufactured in the first place? Yeah. Exactly. What else? I'm just looking because you right. You reminded me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is all the pressing. This is this came. I ordered this luggage in aluminum in twenty seventeen just came. Well, it turns out it wasn't. So smart has a battery built in. But I can't check this luggage. Because that's battery. All right. The regulations changed between the time. They offered it in the time. I bought it. We'll be back with more and just a bit. But first word from I love this digital ocean. I know rather your digital ocean fan to use it as I do because we're amateurs for prototyping a web apps websites. But it's also used by startups of all sizes for a minimum viable product. I see people running production servers on all the time digital ocean is the simplest easiest to use cloud platform for developers for teams, you can deploy manage and scale cloud, applications faster and more efficiently with digital ocean. And I'm going to show you I just I have to think back in time. Let me log in here too. When I was first starting out in this business, and I wanted to create a twit website. I I had to find a web host went down to south soft layer in Texas there now, I B M. And then you say, well, I'd like a server, yes, sir. What kind of server would you like, and you have to specify it? And they say, okay. We're gonna provisions that server we'll get back to you. Oh in a week or two. And by the way at this time. This was pretty cool. Cool. All right. We to later then you have to install the software that you're gonna use that server. Maybe if there's a problem another week passes, you finally get it up and running. And now, you you got your website going or you can do what I would do today and go to DO dot CO slash twit digital ocean. Let me just show you a log into my digital ocean account. They call them droplets because get it. It's drop in the ocean. And I'm gonna show you how fast it is to set up and provision a server I'm gonna create a new droplet, by the way, I'm not gonna use their so many cool features. They've got Cooper Netease. They've got dish volumes. You can have databases. They have custom DNS we'll start here. You could choose an image which distribution you want to free St. fidora, Debbie sent oh S you choose container distribution. They support Docker and Cooper Netease. Or I like the one button installs this is they call it. Now, the marketplace everything from WordPress too. Django? Docker ghost? That's a blogging cleverness just set up. I don't know. What what should we set up today plano lamp stack? I like, you know, what I like to do because I like to have no didata J s installed as well. So it'll be a lamp stack, but it'll have node preinstalled on boon to eighteen o four. So I'm ready to run my note application, I can have a standard starter or general purpose CPU optimized, but let me watch this. I like to turn down the price all the way to five dollars a month. It's a gigabyte a CPU twenty five gigs of storage gigabyte of ram twenty five as a storage a terabyte of transfer this per month. I do like to spend an extra book to have backups enable case a anything up if you want to add block storage, you can choose your data center. New york. San Francisco Amsterdam Singapore, London, Frankfurt, Toronto Banglore. I always choose San Francisco. I also as you know, Robert this very handy have S H turned on. So that you can have secure as age logging. There you go. Let's just call this Leo's call it call it ru- Padres. No, all for you. And I'm gonna now watch less than a minute. I'm going to set up and provision server with the public IP address that I'll have a console to. I can log into its running a lamp stack. It's running no dot J. It's already for my application. I could start up loading could start working. I could serve it publicly. They have many more features including custom DNS load balancers. They have secured droplets droplet metrics this I've never seen anything so easy. This is transforming the the economics of web apps of web startup. It's incredible maya's Q well, ruby on rails. They just introduced to manage databases for post Cressey can launcher database of the push of a button. Oh, by the way, Padres note is up and ready. Should we that fast? Should we just log in which s please log into your node root access? It's public address there. It is. It's Putin up system. D there it is relaxed in. Well, actually, we're not because I'm not gonna show you secret password. It's amazing nine nine nine nine time. You get an SLA cloud. Firewalls full DNS management free daily backups point in time recovery stand by not automatic fail over end and security. So if you've got a raspberry pi, and you need a web base back in service for it. This is the place to do it. It's so affordable, so easy, and we're going to give you a hundred dollar credit right now at DO dot CO slash twit. So it's going to be free for you for at least a little while DO dot CO slash twit. I love digital ocean the sky's the limit anything. You wanna do Padre? I'll just turn on. Oh, I should show. You this part do and when you're done you destroy. The droplets, I'm destroying your droplet this destroy it. It's all gone goodbye. Completely securely erased I love it. There you go gone. I should destroy that other droplet. I don't know what that's hanging around, by the way, you see my Bill in the upper hand corner this month three dollars ninety four cents. Less than a lot folks, DO dot CO slash twit. When you play the hundred dollar credit, it's free. Thank you digital ocean. Transforming technology transforming the the ecosystem that's his marvelous. We mentioned that and Google, plus they're gone a second. I didn't mention that the Google you are L shorter. Google dot goal. That is going away as well dot goal. I worry about Google voice. That's what to buy a threat. I I will be unreachable. If that goes. Google voice numbers. The number on my business card everywhere. Shifting off of some of my second factor. That's using that just in case. Well, I'm sure I mean, if they kill it. They'll give you a warning, and you could move to twi- Leo or somewhere else. But even ported anywhere poured it so you could put it on a phone if you wanted right? Ringing multiple phones. And what I love that way phone. I get a new phone. I immediately make it my Google plus number, and then I can use it. That's how I call from Italy hanging. Cheek right now, it doesn't cost any three free. Wow. ESP talion. I I do wonder how long out says to last to live as well. Robert, what would you use as an alternative to Google voice? I know there are a lot of companies do this. None none for free probably. But right. I mean, you I think we can safely get away from the old idea of it has to be a phone number. I like that actually if you use signal or what's up it's tied to your phone number. I've been getting into discord. I know it's it's a gaming serve actually loved his. I've got a couple of discord services that I run right now because I've got one for family and friends, and I've got one that basically the the old know how Google plus group has come into my discord. Nice. So we talk about maker proxy our chat room, like an IRC real. Yeah. Yeah. It's so it's it's, but you have different channels just like we've got different channels in our chat room. And so you choose the one that is speaking about the topic that you want a we go back and forth. And so that's my touchstone to the twin army. Do you run the server at home run an identical ocean? I'd dischord runs it for me. Oh, you don't you. Just let them right. Yeah. Do you pay for that? What? Nope. Completely free one hundred percent. It's not end end in crypt. But who cares? You can turn that on. Yeah. So the private chat rooms because they allow you to make Tex rooms, and then they also you make voice rooms, and you can turn on an off encryption depending on what kind of performance you need and it's got apps for IOS for Android for windows. I think in in the modern world. There's a real call for some sort of centralized maybe not centralized decentralized be better, but some sort of authentication service where this is my one, you know, whatever it is at Lille LaPorte or whatever. But this is my one single place where you can find everything, and this is me, and it's to be maybe. PG signing. I do that chain blockchain. Well, actually, that's a good use for. Chain. In whatever preferred mode, you want to be reached. Well, I use a possible to reach the O dot IS tea, which is Leo is two pulls up. My key base. Public pagers has all my information, all my links, my phone numbers how to reach me via signal what my PGP he is. So that's one page that refers to everything, but and it's through key base, which I think is a really great service, but not widely known eh. Do you have a centralized thing us? No, I don't I feel like we need that. And Google voice was for many of us. Yeah. But you know, Email is becoming unwieldy for many people because it's sheer quantity of it. Texting is annoying. I hate it. When PR people text me in the middle of the night, tell me about their products, and I'm getting more of that. But there needs to be a way in which the recipient can compel control the flow of information to to. Yourself. It's still convenient for. And that's why hookah plus was so awesome. Which messaging service using using do you think that's a killer app? Somebody will say, oh, I am put it out and everybody go so long. Well, the problem the problem with all of those things is that they require large companies that have entrenched business models to agree on a common standard that they don't control. And and historically every time. We've tried to do something like that someone sabotages it with Email, and we did with text messaging Email is the single real success text messaging. I'm not sure I agree with you because it's a mess, but it's gotten very fragmented. And now Google wants our CS to take over from SMS, but the carriers don't wanna do our CS. So it's actually starting to fragment. Let's not even talk about I message. Yeah. Apples, complete silent will all the messaging services, right? Right. And even an even even Email. You know, it's it just happened to be around at the beginning of of everything, but you know, the getting protocols to sink properly on on different devices. You know, they Google G mail of you know, they dumb it down for use on other forms. But you know, so that they're they're using the, you know, the bare bones internet standards, but but in a in a rational cooperative world, the Email standards would have grown that you know, the baseline would have been much more than pop SMTP. But. I'm showing my age. But I think the UN in Luton Leo, remember when if you in a L Scribner, you couldn't finish a message to a copyright Riber MCI mail MCI within fifty five on MCI you with a big deal when MCI and CompuServe finally had interconnected federated. And that was the and there are, you know, there's mastodon there's social which is but mastodons based on there's pixel fed which is a good news, social based Instagram, but you're right at without the big commercial entities supporting it, which they never will. Because they wanna silo everything it's going to be pretty hard and consumers. This is why consumers by the Comcast flex boxer apple services. They wanna make instant message all my communications. Cain is their is their business model. Yeah. They finally killed killed aim right? If. Really? Game siri. So then there's Facebook, oh, boy, we stored hundreds of millions of your passwords in plain text could go possibly go wrong. It turned out as part of a routine security review in January. We found some user passwords. Word in a readable format within our internal data storage systems. It's cutter attention because basically twenty thousand Facebook employees would have access to your passwords. Facebook says they will notify you. If your passwords are stored in that way, the number of people whose passwords are that way seems to be going up as always Facebook says it's at least hundreds of millions of Facebook light users. Tens of millions of other Facebook users tens of thousands of Instagram users. I think this is all part of a brilliant strategy because they've done so much shady stuff over the last couple of years that this doesn't even take the meter. This is okay. Yeah. Big deal could possibly go wrong. At least it was a far as we know only available to Facebook employ, thousands of employees, and they have these things called Email and USB drives. So. And hackel. Other than that was perfect normally says Facebook, we hash insult the passwords. Pepper mind that that text file did not like cash. So you know, if you had a parody account on Twitter this making fun of you in humiliating you. What would be the best way to shut it down. File a lawsuit. Yeah. So at Devon cow, which was Devon newness is former chairman of the security how security committee and now ranking member it only had twelve hundred followers on Monday. He sued them and Twitter for two hundred fifty million dollars. It now has more than half a million members. Surpassing newness his own account hundred thirty four thousand. So the special counsel new up on their on their we're going to we're going to rename the Streisand effect to the newness cow effect because that lawsuit had the exact opposite effect. He also sued a parody Twitter account, Devon's mom, right, which by the way, I think it would be a house of cards. Ian twist if it turns out, that's that's actually different. That'd be credible. Devon's cow is hopping on the monetization bandwagon with t shirts conspiracy meeting tonight. Don't tell Devon. Veer nineteen dollars ninety five cents. The crazy part of this is they pulled up. They I mean, he doesn't understand how the internet keeps everything. So they found that video from two thousand ten where he literally he quotes. I think people have every right to say what they want to they want to smear someone they can do it. So that was him in two thousand ten versus him now saying, but the being mean, well, so it's easy for us to poke fun at David nudist for for doing something that was transparently stupid. But there is a dark side to this. There's three at least three people that are sued here. Liz Maher is the named person in it. And then the other two people whoever is running those accounts. Those three people are going to have to pay for legal representation. They're going to have to spend a lot of time and a lot of money defending themselves here. They've he filed the suit the suit weirdly in Virginia, and one reason for that is that Virginia has really terrible week anti-slapp laws. So you can't the you can't slap anti-slapp laws punish people for bringing frivolous lawsuits. But but there and usually can wind up turning the tables, so that you get your legal expenses paid. And you might even get a judgment out of it. But they found jurisdiction to file it in where those laws are really weak. And it's and it's part of a trend that's been going on from that side of the aisle weaken libel laws make it easier to to harass people for exercising their free speech rights. And I think that's the real story here is that a powerful member of congress is taking advantage of the court system to harass at least one American citizen in probably three, although we don't know who the cow and the mom are at this point yet to Twitter have to reveal the densities of those account holders in discovery. I've never been I've never been able to get that information Twitter ever. Maybe I need to sue. Well, if you if you file a lawsuit than yes, he would you would subpoena the information from from Twitter, and then Twitter would fight the subpoena. And it would you know in the judge would have to order order to compel that response. Right. But it's it's literally chilling. No. But it's also create a lot of great pumps like you'll move on. And don't utter a word. And the you know, the fact that noon affects she comes from there actually two hundred looked it up. They by Mercury News columnist about this today. There are two hundred dairy farm in uniform district fill my thinking, why did he actually focus on real cows? And you know, help them, Gary farmers. He actually his family owns right? Dairy farm in the mid west L think it's I think it's an Iowa. And they were raided by ice last year. It was very very large. And nobody in the town would talk about the newness family at all because they were afraid I'm somewhat sympathetic because Twitter is a great place. If you wanna harass somebody. Yeah, it's very toxic in Harare who hasn't been asked. I think of Robin Williams daughter was after father's death horrifically harassed and had to leave odor. She didn't. Sue. But honestly, Twitter Finian. Megan McCain, you heard the story about sending McCain and messenger. That message it. She got this week know what happened somebody sent her an aptly disgusting message, which I wouldn't even or actually messenger. Don't put it on the screen now, you don't want it on the screen. It's it's disgusting. But among other things that it it threatened her daughter Megan made fun of her weight, and it was just defending her father. From another person on on a guy named Donald Trump's. Not a fan of Twitter. I have to say and every time I say this plenty of journalists who will stand up and say, no. But it's a really great source at the same time. I honestly think it's a bad source for our media because a lot of Twitter outraged gin gets amplified further by mainstream media, which says all they're going crazy, right? And it's just Twitter outrage, which has no weight in my mind Twitter. Even now that hundred eighty characters it's still not enough to make a nuance statement about anything the words nuance and Twitter seem more on I've actually gotten trouble trying to tweak things out that were complicated. In people defenders tweet lawn. Don't tweet aligned don't twist only one good way to use Twitter to put your statements out there. And then ignore them. Don't get in a conversation. Don't get Donald Trump junior just tweeted a minute ago. Oh, there you go to be precise. Nineteen Hillary putting leftist lawyers who dream it would be to take them. What don't you? Even the other way to survive Twitter is you'd be very literal with your muting. I my block bought does all my blocking. But I will meet people. I mean, why am I falling? Donald Trump seems like we do too much. Well, probably it's a re- tweet. And that's the other problem. I used tweet deck. I see you're using tweet tick one of the real reasons, I use tweet tech. And I'm sure jackal kill it any day. Now is I can say in that calm. No, re tweets and re tweets are the single worst pollutant in any Twitter stream because the re tweets are, the are the, you know, the Twitter outrage engine revving up, and I just don't do re tweets. I, you know, what are we spending any energy on it? Good luck. Devon cow. What was it a Facebook? As where you go to listen to things you don't care about from people who do care about Twitter's. Where you go to listen about things that you do care about from people nothing about I think that's fair. That's about mayor Instagram is the new home for, hey. The Atlantic says, we thought it was just pictures. Misinformation apparently is thriving on Instagram, and I don't know how this works because at least with Instagram you. There isn't retweeting you have to follow people on Instagram or you're not gonna see this stuff. Right. Or is that not the case how you know. How would Instagram, you know, my wife uses stopped using it. So I'm not an expert, but my wife uses it, but she makes it a private account. So only people who she knows can follow her pictures. Right. She only follows other people she knows. And she likes it night. Don't blame her for like stuff. It's only stuff she let's have by default and Instagram account of public. You can make it private which with Mark for your left. And you recommend connect faithfully recommended teams have private accounts unless they happened to be public figures. Like the daughter one problem, though is the same problem with YouTube. It's the recommendation engine, and here's a motherboard piece by Joseph Cox, it took ten seconds for Instagram. To push me into an anti vacs rabbit hole with their recommendation engine. So there's there's part of the problem. These recommendation engines are just notoriously horrific. They just don't work they amplify the wrong things because they're they're designed to generate engagement designed to do. What's good for the company, but maybe not so good for your mental? Let's. One of the biggest concerns about online news to the fact that we are fed a diet of things that the thing that we want to consume if opposed to what actually is important. Yeah. Twenty four hour news cycle is not been good for politics. That's for sure. Funny on the way over here. I was listening to MSNBC and my car on my car, and I had to turn it off it at points. Music on the other hand, you go too far in Australia. Telstra the big telco blocked four Chan eight Chan and vote the blogs zero hedge video hosting platform live leak because they were repeating. The video of the church terrorist attack or rebroadcasting, his manifesto or even just information so Telstra, which is an ISP blocked it. And that's strikes me as all service entire served ending onto way new-zealand law. That's the way New Zealand law works. This is a stray area. But is that how ustralia law? Does too right. Yeah. I right. I mean, I get it. I tend to fall more on the side of say libertarian where I get looked just put everything out there and give people the tools that they need to cut things down on their own. But as I get older, I realized that doesn't always work. Yeah. So there's gotta be some some sort of happy medium that you that is closely shifting constantly shifting between blocking out content. That is definitely one hundred percent designed to provoke and incite and allowing brisk discourse, so Microsoft, a number of years ago, Creative Technology photo DNA stay gave to the National Center for missing children whose board. I just recently resigned from retired from and that technology allow them to basically hash specific illegal child exploitation issue images. Physi- can't be riposted if Facebook could act quickly enough, for example, Facebook all the fifth, for example in hash that video they do. Well, they headed hash. They headed hashed within twenty minutes. But the trouble is that the people who amplify it are aware of how the hashing works. And so they ways to a subtly alter the video, they'll do a, you know, hold up an ipad to your screen and take a picture of it. And or, you know, do a video of it. And then post that so the so the yeah. For every for every way that you have to block it the people who are determined to go around the blocks are going to do that. What was photo DNA elites for still images there that you can pretty much defeat that getting around it because they don't just hash. The actual file they hash characteristics of the file that can be blocked, even if the file been modified. I'm not done around. Yeah. And they've done some things with it using audio for example to fingerprint. I blocked that video that used audio eight rather than video it's a Bank. Yeah. Audio can be. I mean, we don't we? We know it's challenging and some people have called for the end of. Facebook live and other live streaming things. I don't think that's the. Live streaming is. I mean, we're doing it right now. It's really great. There was there was a quote when Facebook live was introduced Mark Zuckerberg in the at the launch of it said, this is I think I'm gonna have this quote, right? He said, you know, this is going to be, you know, something like a game changer. But the thing he said, we really see this being away for people to communicate things that are raw and visceral. Use those words nailed it nailed it. And and so, you know, anybody who wasn't economically incentivized who heard that should have gone. What will will will? Wait the second. Let's let's just take the logical steps. Let's let's follow the recommendation engine and see where this takes us. You could have predicted. Oh, yeah. No. It was predicted. I mean people talked about that day one. When it came out with concerning Facebook shut it down is it. I don't think they should shut down. I I think that a lot of legitimate youth of it. But there needs to be a better. I mean, they've got to get the I working gotta figure out a way to successfully at least a flag inappropriate suspicious content, and then have moderator the me look at it immediately respond, and I mean, they could have done a better job than waiting for the New Zealand police to call them seventeen minutes later to take that. What happened on the other hand? And if no defense of what happened Facebook, but the real story here that fifty people died. I mean, that's the story. More than the fact that disgusting video got got got the not to say that the video wasn't horrible and part of the propaganda the disguise using. But so and triggers the next general that's the problem glorifies, it it becomes a way of creating new killers. That's very say something that's going to sound incredibly callous and just know that that's not my tension. My intention is to put this in the proper frame that was content. It was despicable content. But it was content and did what everyone wants their content to do which is to spark emotion and therefore gather heat on the internet. So no surprise ratios. No surprise that got reshare. Yeah. L? I no way shape or form think that that's the kind of content that should drive the internet does. So until you consult for that. Is gonna fix humans want that want to see that it's certain content to be sinful. Absolutely. And that's why that's why I'm saying. But this until until we come to a point at which we can say, it's sinful content. It's simple. We love it. We love it. Otherwise with their be dash ins, I think not let. I have never seen the credit. I don't even know what they look like one of them's married to thank the Kardashians. For the fact that people walk around town talking into their phone like this really with the speaker on that. Yes. You know, why? Because it was reality TV, and they needed the camera to hear the other end of the conversation. So they put the person speaker phone and talk to it. But somehow became the right way to use a smartphone. Which means there's people all over you've seen this. I've been in Rome. It's pathetic people are walking around. You can hear both ends of the conversation enough. You can hear just one end. Now, you hear both do physicians held up I've ever seen. Like a reality. I should they brought to you by capterra. If you are in business, and you know, you've got this line of business offer you use it every day. I'll never forget. I started working at a radio station in San Francisco can be are as the music director. And I go in the door and I'm expecting because I had written databases. I'd written nice modern PC programs to do the music rotation. 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Capterra software selection simplify we didn't have capterra back in the day. I just knew there was something better. I've got a news flash. By the way. Yes. Trump fed no, collusion -struction complete and total exoneration. Yes. If that right after Barth, Ed. Yeah. But it's interesting that he didn't tweet it all for your long days. A little bit busy playing golf with kid rock. But why would you the strangest picture I've ever seen in my life? The middle of a victory lap, which he can I think he had the right to take at the moment for short term. Why would he put something that patently false? It ca- totally contradicts. Why would put anything nutty on Twitter? Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute years. I'm sorry. Larry, you're saying Donald Trump said something untrue shock. I know. If you say it enough, it's true. If you say, you just say it over at the beginning of the show, I said anyone who's immediately saying one side of the other of the extreme exactly what was coming, obviously. But I didn't expect it to be little, and it's an all totally expecting all upper case expected that exonerates totally expect these had that tweet cued up and ready to he put it in hoot suite last year. He's tweet has been cued up and ready to fire. All right, ladies and gentlemen. Let's conclude our broadcasts day. Ed bought I love you. I love your Wilco. Poster. I want you on our show every week you just the greatest Ed bought report ZD net. Twitter while you're just you're just sensible when I get all head up about stuff. You you coming down your talk me off the ledge, and he's always been sensible. I hate you for that. Thank you for being here. Have a great afternoon and evening and also married well to I don't know his wife. Yeah. I knew her when she the PR person years ago is Judy is Judy is a treasure. It'll be twenty twenty five years since this December is when I met her, and it's been a great. You have you have we have a picture we have a picture of ourselves standing back to back at an event in Silicon Valley taken three years before we met while we're going through a box of photographs that she had posed this one out cheek looks at it says, you're. I was going you, Ed. Mr. Larry Magid is every morning. Bright, nearly at CBS News Radio, which is all over the country KCBS here in San Francisco, WCBS, New York City and CBS. I didn't realize is the number to radio group in the country. I didn't even know that right after clear channel. Yeah. We have a lot of affiliate show. Yeah. Huge. And if you want to read his work to Seth save kids to keep them safe online. Connect safely dot org. Does lots of great resources there. Yeah. And I'm I'm going to watch Larry thrill dot com. Flesh twit. I don't know what I'm going to put there. But I like jealous. I have no. You need it. Twit sub demand. Offer code ten percent off on the free accident. Exactly. I pay you. There's the offer code, right? He's giving it away. Folks. Mister father Reverend Robert ballasts digital Jesuit father. Robert, so nice. Honestly, I wish we hadn't said goodbye to you all those months ago in the new back. We we can't get rid of you. No, we love you. And it's great to see you come back again. You'll be back for Defcon probably next time. Right. Actually, I'm coming back for most of April because I have to do surgery for counteract. Two young cat around. It's a family thing. Sorry. But they they won't let me fly for awhile after that. Because I have to do a couple of point you're going to miss Defcon. Well, you have to stay here. Just for a. I get it. You could have the surgery in Italy. But then you'd be stuck with the spaghetti. So you're going to come here. No, no, the problem with doing it in Italy. Because I just got there. It will take me at least a year. You're not handle the really the surgery, right? You can do it. They're fine. It's it's not a problem. But I kind of need to take care of now. Because I I'm blinded. My right eye, and it's really affecting Robert. I had no idea. Sorry. Will you be all better after the injury? He'll be me. So that's a problem. Nice patch. And we'll see April about that. That would be really nice to know that you can can come up and do that. Of course, you can't fly, but you could drive I can drive. Sure. What could go wrong? Lexi could self drive up here drive back, and then it will crash because someone hacked we wind up the show with this small video of the CEO of AT and T Randal, Stevenson, speaking at the economic club. Oh, you know, I gotta turn off all the things that prevent me from playing videos back here here. We'll do it. One more time. Secrete story CFO for many of that. I was. Yeah. For a lot of that. And. Robocall too. He's getting a robo call on. From President Trump or somebody or know somebody wants to tell them timeshare in beautiful Hawaii. To block yet t if only there were away. That robocall could be from. I wonder if it's from John Oliver. Hysterical. Mom. Kevin Nunes, mom or cow rebel cow robo cow. Lazy gentlemen? Thank you so much for being here. We do twit every Sunday afternoon, we've moved to time up a little bit. Although. We just that just let us make the show longer. So really gained nothing to fifteen Pacific five fifteen eastern as twenty one fifteen UT if you wanna watch live, you can go to twit dot TV slash live. You could listen live to got to audio streams air if you'd like to join us in studio, we had a great studio audience people from all over Manchester, New Hampshire. We had Florida Toronto and Fort Worth where the west begins. He want to be part of our studio audience just Email tickets at Twitter TV. So we can put an uncomfortable chair out for you. We've done pretty well. Right. Nice uncomfortable. Yeah. Good. See what I say this. The most uncomfortable chair we can. And then we make the show as long as possible, and it's fun to watch. We've also been pumping neuro-toxins into the study. Enjoy that explains a lot if you can't watch live. We've got on demand versions of the show audio and video at Twitter TV, that's our website best ball. Hey, look, there's father Robert, hey, you are also wearing the same shirt you were last. And the thing is it is literally the same shirt. I have not watched this from day with this ex white last week, Ian was really upset because he's wearing the same shirt that he wore in this picture that the top of the page with TV. And then I point out what that's okay cause. Robert is an fact I was as well. It's a uniform. Yeah. Yeah. Twit dot TV or subscribe in your favorite podcast, application, and that way, you could copy of it the minutes vailable, plenty of time for your Monday morning commute. We'll be back here. Tomorrow, ten AM Pacific. That's one PM eastern time. Seventeen hundred UT see for the Big Apple pivot should be very interesting stream in. We'll be. And we'll stay up as long as we can. To we're taking bets. Now, we've got the we got the charts. The bingo chart already if anybody wants to make a wager to how long thanks for joining us. We'll see next time and other twit in the candy. Bye.

Apple Facebook Larry maggot Google Tesla Port Robert Trump Trump special counsel Twitter United States Robert Muller Pope Francis Santa Fe Darpa president CBS New Mexico Trump Tower
Muellerpalooza 2018 Season Finale (feat. everyone ever)

Mueller, She Wrote

2:16:57 hr | 2 years ago

Muellerpalooza 2018 Season Finale (feat. everyone ever)

"Thanks to Neum for supporting Muller. She wrote Neum is designed for results. Meet your resolutions by signing up for your trial today at Neum, that's N O M dot com slash AG. What do you have to lose? Visit Neum dot com slash AG. Now to start your trial today. So to be clear, Mr. Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs. That's what I said. That's obviously through our position is. I'm not aware of any of those that gives I have been called a surrogate at a time material and that campaign, and I didn't have not have communication with the Russians will have to get involved with Putin for have nothing to do with Putin. I've never spoken to him. I don't know anything about him other than he will respect me. Russia if you're listening. I hope you're able to find the thirty thousand emails that are missing. So it is political Europe. Communist know. Mr. green, communism is just a red herring. Like, all members of the oldest profession. I'm a capitalist. Hello and welcome to Muller. She wrote. I'm your host AG. I have my voice back and with me as always Lisa Johnson, Lou and Jordan Coburn. Hello is our last episode of the two thousand eighteen and it's the season two. Finale. You guys this is the season. Finale. We're so glad you joined us. I'm hoping you'll have a great holiday. Where'd you guys? Go I stayed home. But it was nice. I love the holidays because the streets are really quiet so everything feels really mellow, but I do the same things. Netflix and chill. Nice. Yeah. You just do it with less annoying people around. Exactly, honestly, I love it. I went to York, Pennsylvania. Visit my mom. She just moved there. It was great the outskirts of York, very racist. The downtown though, very liberal. It's like a racism Donut. In the middle. Just nice and not racist. And we're the Donut hole liberals. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. It was good. It was really fun holes beautiful city me too. But now that we're part of the Neum family gotta watch donuts or fun. No. You can have treats. Treat yourself that is my favorite episode of parks and rec, okay? Now that we've advertised for a bunch of stuff for free that we're not getting paid for we had a York, Pennsylvania. We had our family had a big giant family Christmas Eve dinner in Phoenix. Right. And so my mom's side of the family is small raiders only a handful of us. But well, I shouldn't say my my my dad's side is more. My mom's my mom has his sister. And but her my my aunt her husband has ten brothers and sisters, and they're all in their sixties. So they all have kids and their kids have kids. So there's like there's like fifty people she at this dinner, and they're all part of this family. And I'm sitting there with my cousin who I grew up with. And she's telling me who everyone is. I'm like, okay. Okay. Okay. It's like the devil wears practicing. Find her John I'm all over here with like the five of us on our side of the family, and I'm all doozy's rule. That's our nickname for our family. Anyway, it gets awkward at funerals to like when the families like different like that. I've seen that live. It's it's really tense headings birdcage. That's so great. Anyway, we have a massive show this week Jordan is going to be covering Daily Beast interview with Rudy Giuliani. He's loosened the truth again and Julia, you're gonna cover a New York Times report about Trump's feet grows. Oh, yeah. I'm gonna cover the molar madness. Sweet Sixteen bracket of top stories of two thousand eighteen that I created. And we have a montage of all of our ghosts of guests past including Yay. Ready? Greg Proops Seth Abramson Renato Mariotti Virginia Heffernan, Sarah Kenzi are Greg Oli. Are Scott Dworkin. Andrea Chiluba, David Preece, Jack, Brian Elizabeth McLaughlin, Randall from Randall's animals Joyce, Vance and Mimi Rocca, and you can catch that montage at the end of the show. So stick around for that. That's awesome would agree group of guests. We've had a best. Yeah. Amazing people in new friends new friends. Yes, we're it. It's it was funny. I put that all out on Twitter and someone's like, oh, wait a namedrop podcasts or name dropping. My name dropping I'm telling you who's on our show. Yeah. Also, you got to label people in if they're down. Yeah. Everyone can know what celebrities are down, you know. Yeah. Down for the cause. I can see if they weren't on the show how it would be name dropping, but they're all on a an amazing lineup. Yeah. I didn't quite say that though I said if I if you were to put out a podcast that had all these people on it. What would you call it? So maybe they didn't realize that those people were going to be on CIC. They thought you were just like saying names for the heck of it. Like, hypothetically, right. Yeah. On late night shows are like an tonight. We have some good. Yeah. Stop named rubbing Fallon. I'm gonna do this next comedy show somebody else's next. You probably saw him somewhere. Yeah. Heff on sorry guy with new book. I'm humble. Namedrop? Anyway, we got a ton of new patrons this week. So thank you for that, welcome. We're only about one hundred and fifty more away from being able to record a second episode tweak, which will come out as a bonus episode for our patrons. So if you want access to that second episode every week had to patriot dot com slash Miller. She wrote for just a few dollars you can unlock all of the premium content. It's super worth it. You get access to our new second episode. But at Freeman episodes all our past bonus in book club episodes as well as future. Minnesota's unedited interviews are newsletter with my research notes access to are closed. Facebook group in the fantasy indictment league and all kinds of thank you gifts. That's patriot dot com slash Miller. She wrote I think we may just go ahead and start the second episode in in the new year. Oh, yeah. We're close enough. I think we can do it. We could manage it to finagle little budget numbers and make it make it real. But seriously, we only have one hundred fifty left to go. We got a ton this month, and that's super cool. That's amazing. Thank you all for your support. We really. I appreciate it. Thanks for supporting women in podcasting. We do have some corrections from last week first of all the creatures that run green. God's Bank in Harry Potter or goblins and the head goblins name is grip hook. Thank you for that. We here at Miller, she wrote hit the hard topics. And so I wanted to make sure you guys knew that we knew they were goblins. I. Yeah. I didn't think much about it. But some people are hardcore Harry Potter fans, and they know their differences in racists. I read the books, but you know, goblins does that make us races forgetting the name wrong. Like, it's like hauling a a his, you know, Latina person like, I don't know Filipino. I don't know if it's our goblins a race species. The species, I don't know the fantastical categories sociologically know how down. Yeah. Be a cool. College course, they could be disenfranchised, but they run the banks. So oh. I feel like they're the Republicans of the wizard world. I got to look into this. Yeah. Breakdown of the socio political and economic. Breakdown of. The creatures in Harry Potter another pocket if they wanted to paint them more favorably. Maybe they would have made them else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. We all elves Dhabi. Elves are cutest fuck. Yeah. The house else. Yeah. Goblins are just like that. Yeah. Yeah. Not attractive. That's okay. Don't don't body. Shame. Sorry. You're right. No, you know, and I just made fun of bodies. You know, what we're in a whole head merry Christmas. We hear it molar. She wrote love to talk about the issues. And that's why we bring up goblins. I also wanted to clarify another correction Mark milley who I thought Trump would appoint as acting secdef secretary defense. He's the current chief of staff of the army not the deputy secretary of defense. So thank you for that correction. It wasn't a mistake so much as I don't care now. I do I do care. It's the little things. Yeah. Yeah. She was the army is a big deal show, some respect I know right respect with a K. We have a lot of news to get to today. So let's kick it off with just the facts. Sunday night last week. Chief Justice John Roberts junior stayed the contempt order in the secret subpoena battle that's being waged against Bob Muller, or at least his team. At least we think it is. We've got really good evidence that it's Muller. This is the first instance of Skoda's weighing in on a legal proceeding related to the more investigation into Russian collusion. First time Skoda's supreme court of the United States Roberts stayed in order holding an unnamed foreign state owned entity in contempt for one week. Meaning they won't incur any additional financial penalties for each week they refuse to comply with the Miller subpoena. They were being charged five thousand dollars a week for not complying this stiff five grant, oh, that's real big. When you're talking about billions of dollars true. The stay give Skoda's one week to decide if it's going to intervene or if it's going to leave it to the lower courts. And if it decides to leave it to the lower courts Muller wins. That's they're going to discuss it, and we should know soon last week. The DC circuit court ruled in favor of Muller saying that the foreign state owned company would have to comply with the molar subpoena, which led the entity to ask the Scotus to step in Muller's response, which was due Friday and handed in Friday was filed under seal. So no new updates of emerged, but you can place your bets in our fantasy indictment league in the friends of Justice Group on Facebook. I still got b. TB? Oh, yeah. As as I makes a lot of sense. Somebody said asked me if the United States postal service, if it could be the post office, and it was like, I don't think there is state owned company. I think there a federal agency. In fact, I'm sure of it. Yeah. I sure, but I'm sure the supreme court is like the data of our country of mom says now you just like dad. Yeah. You ask them, and he kicks it back help. Go. Ask your mom and the lower courts. Yeah. The DC circuit courts or the mom. Yeah. Well, let's let's Mexico. Just the mon-. Yeah. I mean, they're all important. Are we G is on it? So. Yeah. Mom best. Mom. Oh, yeah. Hope she's doing our I hear she's back on the bench kick in. Kicking it live then onto Monday with a Trump tweet ousting Mattis two months before he was expected to depart. We all know from last week that moderate dog Mattis quit secretary of defense and told everyone in his scathing resignation letter about how dumb Trump is. He said that he believing at the end of February. Well, Mr. idiot pants tweeted that he named Shanahan the new acting secretary of defense starting January first affectively telling Mattis he didn't have to stick around thereby making Mattis eligible for unemployment insurance, which I think you should file for. Ooh. Yeah. When that'd be fun. Why not Tuesday was Christmas? And it was pretty quiet except for the horrific story of an eight-year-old Guatemalan boy that died in border patrol custody is a second child debt as a result of Trump's zero tolerance policy for people seeking asylum in the United States, and oh, it's just that's he apparently had symptoms of a cold. He had a fever the cleared him and in. Apparently, he got worse deteriorated in the passed away. Yeah. Late Christmas Eve, and he said he'd tested positive for influenza rain. Something that we should be able to treat pretty easily. Right. Yeah. I heard you went and got penicillin or amoxicillin. I think penicillin. No. And then. Yeah. Like, you said he was released and then he just fiscal worsened, really fast. Wow. Yeah. I mean, again children shouldn't be in custody. So there's that. But also, I feel like I at least these undocumented Kinchen 'cause there's some kids out there that murderers, but not in this case. So I feel like yeah. It's it's that issue of they shouldn't be in custody period. And then also were the not checking them thoroughly enough. Or was it like an issue of overpopulation, well, they found that he had a fever and they'd give him medicine. So they knew about it. Right. It's probably I know for a fact from reports from within the agency that they're very understaffed. Now, you know with the government shutdown a lot of Martin getting paid or on furlough. So I can't imagine things getting better and the only good argument, and I say. A good argument, but feasible argument is that people die, right? And so sometimes they're in a spot like that. When when it happens, and my my counter argument to that is that child if they're sick, they should be a home with their family. They shouldn't be in a cage on a bus detained in a super scary situation. I can't imagine how scary that is. I used to play hide and seek when I was a kid and it must super privilege world. And I get scared shitless. I can't even imagine what it's like to be in that environment. How sanitary could could it be like I feel like at this point? They're not really they don't seem concerned about keeping up with these things. So it's not the fault of the migrants. If they're in this condition that is not good for when you're sick. And just makes things worse. I would imagine especially when Trump is like they're bringing leprosy and aids and whatever and yet there are actually children with common colds influenza that are dying on their watch. So as, you know, get your priorities straight. Yeah. And stress and trauma, really weakens the immune system and the nervous system. Mm-hmm. And it. Yeah. It makes getting better harder. Right. And you would think to if he were not in that situation. You could have been admitted to a hospital and actually been in a hospital bed getting fluids consistently another argument. Then would be what taxpayer dollars to pay for that. Right. Of course. That's what the argument would be. Yeah. How sad goblins. Yeah. Yeah. And he keeps blaming the parents. I hear right. Like the ideas any says like don't make the trip. It's not worth it your shape. It's a said that and Trump administration Kellyanne Sarah Sanders, they'd be like we shouldn't take your child on that journey and I'm like go live in Guatemala for ten minutes. And tell me what you think is. Exactly. Yeah. And their ancestors. I mean, it's such a fundamental hypocrisy. I'm like, you think it's not worth it to take the trip. If you're in that position of desperation, like how many of our ancestors when I say, our I mean, our white European ancestors died on boats coming over from Europe. Right. But it was worth the trip. Right. And no one ever was like seeing shouldn't have made the trip. Exactly. Yeah. Well, they did a couple of times with a talian migrants and Irish immigrants, but not to the degree. Yeah. Mhm people just that's always been the fascist or autocratic argument is that immigrants will ruin your country. They keep it works. So they keep using it. Yep. I thought you were going to say something I was I forgot I forgot exactly who it was. But someone said it was king. I think said that it was like he's like only two kids if died just some awful quo. Yeah. Jane is for is makes me really think about like what it must have been like growing up in Germany during that time when when Hitler was in power and people keep saying like don't compare Trump to Hitler. I think it's like if if Hitler could ever be so powerful than you know, it's only makes sense that someone like Trump could become powerful too. Because I think Hitler was way worse, obviously. But Trump, you know, it it's logical that we're in this position. And I wonder what people at that time did when one person died or, you know, two people died like when it slowly started happening. Like was it like, oh, you know, it's just here and there. Well, the politics of fear is power or their powerful. And. That divisive utilization of fear of the unknown and fear that someone's going to take your job and fear that disease is coming and all just stoking fears. It was a very powerful tool that people like Hitler have used Trump is using it people right wing governments emerging in the EU are using it. Yanukovych used it in Ukraine. It's just a really common thing. And it's sad that that they have to that. They can't win support with ideas. They have to fear, right? Anyway, Wednesday, the New York Times did a piece about Trump's Vietnam bone Spurs podiatrist Angelea, so you have that first later in the show, you got the foot story. I do the foot doctor. You have to do it. And like a sexy. What the doctor is here. Tim, bosnia. Yeah. It's funny. If he were like, a witch doctor is they like the witch hunt theme, you know, keeping with brand. Food do bone Spurs. That is my new band. As we also learned Wednesday that Matthew fucking Wigger lied on his resume about being an academic all American during his football days. I good old football days. It's like he's like L Bundy in that way. Like, the he'll never be as good as he was when he was playing football. And he wasn't even an academic all American because he lied not only did he lie on his resume about this. But he put this lie in government documents. And this is according not to the media, but to the organization that awards the honor. Okay, apparently Whitaker was a tight end. For sorry. From nineteen ninety nineteen Ninety-two. And he claimed to be an academic all American in his biography on the website of the law firm he worked for and on his resume. He submitted in two thousand fourteen to the CEO of that patent marketing firm where he touted a toilet for dudes with big Dicks. No bags but in twenty ten when he applied for an Iowa judgeship. He included that lie in his paperwork and his government paperwork. Not just a resume when you plot to be a government employee you turn resume, but then you also have to fill out paperwork, man. And he put that Lyon there as well telling everyone he was an academic all American when he left his post as US attorney in Iowa. So turns out his name does not appear on the list of academic all Americans on the website of that organization. The that awards the honor. Apparently, it was confirmed by the university of Iowa somebody called him up. And he's they're like, no he never gave him that. He was actually awarded a lower level honor all district. Yeah. Like the second. American. Yeah. It's almost like I oh he thought that little lie would give him so much edge. I'm sorry. I owens. Yeah. That no no shame to them. I think it's it's really all Whitaker here. It sounds tone him. He. Yeah. He could have chosen something a little more interesting. If you're going to allow your resume for one don't even become a g because like or not this AG, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I just feel as acting. I'm actually you're the really, oh, there's a hip hop title. They're really stand up. Yeah. Man. I know people that I told McDonalds a liar too. I think it's McDonald. I think it's so humanizing at the same time. It's like this is the kind of people that Trump wants in the White House, or at least close by actually shouldn't even be involved for the you know in the Justice department. It said probably actually he was like, oh, he lied. Great. I'll take him. Yes. Yeah. Then wednesday. We learned that Trump visited the troops in Iraq at first I tweeted, all look he did something right? And I was being timing tongue in cheek. But I got a lot of backlash on Twitter from folks saying he'll fuck it up. Shut up your he's not right. Come on think about it. Turns out he fucked it up not only did he pass out Maga hats and Trump flags and shit to the troops, which is against the uniform code of military Justice section for dot one dot one one, by the way, it's also against the rules for any member of the military to openly support a political candidate. But he also lied to the troops right to their face saying they haven't had a raise in in years decades. And he was going to give them a ten percent raise because he's so awesome. And that is just a complete lie. Our military has gotten a raise every year since forever except in nineteen Eighty-three and a ten percent raise. No last year. They got two point six like all federal government employees. Did it's called a cost of living adjustment. Raise basically inflation and the year before that it was two point eight percent. So those are the two Trump years two point eight and two point six. I'm sure Trump supporters will bend over sideways to justify Trump lying to their faces though. I can't. Like us sitting. I'll try to think of how I would defend that. I have an idea. Maybe they'd just be like, oh, he's he's human. They'll pull that one. You know, because it's like appealing to help people make mistakes. And it's okay. What's the big deal? Two percent. Ten percent. What's the difference? But I feel like there should be a different. Eight percent. Sounds like he's running for high school student body. President right. I'm Linda percent resin cookies in every breakfast. No, more class by Ben homework. Forever. You can count on me for a hot tub in the cafeteria never gilded hot. Right to me. You'll get dirty. British you had to quote flight of the conchords. That was there racism, not mine, please send them the emails then Thursday, usually. You say the Concorde you guys hear me then Thursday Giuliani continued his Lou, but the truth tour and Jordan, we'll have that for us in hot notes. If you're not familiar with the phrase lube the truth, we explained it in last week's episode check it out. I thought you thought I was going to tell you. The big story Thursday. All right. I'll tell you. Lube the truth? You wanna do it? Sure. Yeah. So lube the tree cover the truth looping? Yes. Truth moving. It's a concept where they even expanded it to truth finger blasting. To make it all encompassing. You know, so moving the truth is basically as we know these people Giuliani Trump that whole caravan of idiots, they they lie withhold the truth. And then when it starts to look like Muller and company is starting to get the truth out. They try to get ahead of the truth by actually going back on their word usually on national media appearances, and then dropping little truth bullets just of you know, you're going to hear this. So we're going to tell you now we, yeah, you're you're you're we did say that. Yeah. That's what we've always said. Even though they didn't always say that at all. It reminds me of a commercial from the nineties. There was this dog treat called snozzberries. And this little dog would just poke his head up out of nowhere and just go snausers and then like go back down. Yeah. That's Guiliani schnauzers. Right. Right. And then it's all in this effort to make the the bull devastating blow of the truth. Less shocking to the base. 's thus allowing everyone to carry on collusion as usual, usual. I think it works on a psychological level. Right. Even those of us that know the truth in believe the truth, we still find ourselves kind of Jade it a little bit. And can you imagine? How people that don't even believe in truth would find this is not a big deal. You know, like, it's the figurative manifestation of blooming something up like gears or ball bearings. It does not have to be. It does not have to be right. Okay. Although they never mind. Gonna go there different podcasts different day. The big story. Thursday came from McClatchy. I love McClatchy. Some people are like, ooh, they're sketchy, but they've not been wrong. None of their stories. They're huge reporting not been wrong. So that this report came from classy, they reported that cell signals put Michael Cohen outside Prague around the time of the purported Russian meeting that was reported in the Steele dossier, according to four sources four sources Trump. Nachos. One anonymous source basically, a cellphone registered to Michael Cohen pinged towers in the prog area in late summer two thousand sixteen leaving an electronic record to support the claims that Cohen met with Russian officials as outlined in the dossier. Cohen continues to deny he was in Prague. He actually Scott work in Jennifer tile, both passed gas like came out on Twitter, and they're like what what what have you ever been in Prague ever in your whole life anywhere in the Czech Republic. Ever in ever know? It's like, yeah. But you told corn David corn? You been deprived fourteen years ago? So what you know straight the phone went on its own. They're called smartphones. That's traveling now without great. Well, those are some of the theories that that we've talked about in in a lot of the interviews that we had today those will be coming out in bonus content episodes, but there's two things that could be going on here. First of all, it's the area of Prague. It's not Prague. And this could be a very to age-old Republican trick of semantics right where he wasn't in Prague. But he was in Prague minor, right? And he's like wasn't in Prague. Nope. Wasn't me prog ish. Yeah. You were prog as it and. And a lot of sense. Like, I went back to Phoenix for the holidays and my mom lives in moon valley, right? Which is in Phoenix. But somebody would be like to go to Phoenix. Nope. Because in my head. I'm like Zinnemann valley. Yeah. And that would make sense for Cohen to do that. I wasn't in Prague, you know, it's just right outside. And that's where the triangulation came from. And the other is that his phone was there without him or a phone registered in his name was there without him. Because as we know when Cohen's shit was raided his hotel has a home in his offices by the FBI this past April. I think can't remember it's been a long time. They confiscated sixteen burner phones. That's right. Which leads me to believe Coen doesn't understand how burner phones work like you're supposed to get rid of him after he hoards them. So he could have been responsible for the burner phones for the Trump team. And he put them in his name in other smart move. And maybe it was junior revoke that was over there or somebody else was sent to make these payments and had these burner phones with them, but the Russian intelligence, they call it sig int and Hume int which is signal. Engi- human intelligence says that eastern European intelligence agencies picked up an intercepted conversations between Russians rush into Russian that Cohen was in Prague. And that's what led them to investigate the cell, phone tower painting and all that other. According to these sources for full sources. Well, I those are all compelling theories like him being prog Jason him not being there being in charge of the burners. Any of them would make him were complicit. Yeah. But you can put beans on the fact, and I put beans on this. I guess this is conjecture conjecture, but you can put beans on it a phone registered to Michael Cohen was in Prague in the summer of sixteen twenty sixteen. Yeah. That's what it is bottom line. Well, how who what was surrounding it? How that happened? We'll find out. I don't know. Yeah. I think he was there. I saw an interesting theory on Twitter that was basically molar knows everything. But Cohen isn't they're not divulging anything explicitly. So they don't throw off the trail of any other investigations that are going on. Basically. I I liked that theory. But I also have an issue in if Muller had asked and not to say anything he wouldn't say, no, he would just say nothing. Okay. He wouldn't say he certainly wouldn't say I can't confirm or deny my visits or not visits because you're you went if you said, yeah. Yeah. I don't see Muller telling anyone to lie to the public. Right. I think the burner phone being in someone else's hands is most probable, that's what my beans there on. Yeah. And another weird theory. I heard too is that in like some sort of weird folding attempt where you put a message into a phone shut it down send it somewhere and have opened it up and read the message. So that it's not sent through, you know, Interweb radio waves house late travelling light travels on the speed of travels on a beam of light intrigued, nobody so, you know, it doesn't hit any internet towers, or whatever or, you know, internet IP addresses. Okay. So you can't follow it. But then that would mean that Coen forgot to put it in airplane mode. So that when the phone was opened and turned on at pinged his cell tower. Like, you you're supposed to if you do that you're supposed to put it in airplane mode. And it doesn't go being being I'm here. Right. Either way. He he messed up, but the Russians say and steel says that he was there. And so I kinda think he was there. Yeah. I mean, what would Russia gain from saying that he was there when he wasn't besides just chaos, which I guess is enough reason for the thing they do so. Yeah, that's your favorite. Favorites asthma favorite. I should change airplane mode to committing crimes mode. There you go spy mode. Yeah. Don't ping a tower CC mode. Anyway, let's see what else do we have Thursday. A disturbing new report came out of the molar investigation in a filing to the court by concord management, that's one of the Russian entities. Indicted by special counsel this year. The filing alluded to a nude selfie collected by Muller and sent to the Russian entity during discovery, and I don't want to think about it in the everyone's like is it is it the is it Trump. I don't wanna know if it's Malania we already seen that online. Yeah. Do that. She's just give you a you. She give you link. She would she's proud in the most recent motion the lawyers for the Russians asked the judge to lift the order banning them from sending the discovery onto a Russia. So the the concord management wants to get all the discovery they got from alert and send it to Russia, but the Thursday filing the Russians opposed Moeller's request to provide classified information to the judge that would justify the restriction. So they wanted to send all the shit to almost shit to Russia Muller says you provide me. Classified information that would justify this restriction Muller's request dates that releasing the information to the Kremlin would REVEAL OUR surveillance capabilities. So you know, you can't do that. And that's how the new selfie came up. The lawyer for the Russian asked in the court filing how the possibly could the methods of obtaining intelligence capabilities come up with a bunch of spam. Emails a nude selfies. How would that reveal intelligence secrets and I'm sure Muller will win this filing? So put put naked beans on that. But for for anyone really interested in who. This naked photo is it's probably just a person sending a dick pic to a Russian troll guys has to be a joke in there somewhere. But like because these Russian troll user, the they have accounts on social media, right? And I'm sure that there are women or men who reach I get dick pics on on the daily. And so there have to be if there's a female Russian like with a pretty female Russian photo or a dog put picture, which they use. Yeah. She's posting stuff about Trump. There's gotta be. Some Trump a whole Senator dick pics. You know, she got to be some guy in York, Pennsylvania, for example. Right. Sorry. I'm getting that's okay. Sending dick pics to these. They don't know the Russians Boutin Tina, it's like finding a hey in a haystack. I like that found a needle when other was was a needle sitting in front of me. A needle in a stack of needles. It's very difficult. But yeah, that's that's probably all it is guys. It's probably just some, and it doesn't it could be an American might not be. It's just somebody who was communicating online with a Russian troll. We do it all day. We do it all the time. And yeah day. Like, ooh them send him a dick pic or sent him. A naked picture Bubis or something. And that's what happened or in other Republican that might be caught up in some. You know situation it could be a democrat. But all the democratic stuff was released I was hacked. So I wonder if maybe there's like a Republican Democrats going to send a Russian troll and naked cell phone. No just does it have to be into a Russian trawler. It's from the all the stuff gathered from the Russian troll farm. Oh, all the documents cow. Unless they hacked or Republican that was sending nude selfie somewhat. It's just so much more like a congressman style not could be if it's hackers. But these are trolls these are people who sit at the changes. Fake accounts and their social interactive got media. They're not as ki in, you know, like Koussa for and they're acting like no one's ever sent a nude selfie to somebody. They talked to on social media probably a whole grip of in grip a grip hook. I know. Hey, twenty twelve once it's word back. It could be like a closeted gay Republican Christian congressman maybe could be sending it to a small boy Russian avatar Koby Pence. I like your style checkup a winner. Yeah. And I wasn't thinking angry as an old word. I forgot that. It's an old word. I was thinking just as in dick pic, but I I think that's the worst factual. Actually too young to remember grip. Gosh. Anyway, depicts Russian trolls. We'll keep you posted all wine. Yeah. Go. Okay. Someone. Oh, this all that is very kind of you to ask though, you'll he didn't to get the sound in there. I think it adds to the ambiance does. Thank you Also Thursday, the idea of killing congressional salaries during a government shutdown was floated on social media, basically there were people saying, you know, if we have a government shutdown congress shouldn't get their paychecks. And I think I'm against this. I haven't I haven't I've put it out there. I've asked you know, change my mind, you know, I I'm open to arguments. I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Like, some people are like think that you're you know, how he would be like changed my mind. Fight me. No. I like, I really if you have an argument, I loved one quick one if you wanted. Yeah. We'll let me give you my theory. I which is is with all things my mind like I said, it can't be changed with legitimate discourse. But personally, I believe. Taking away congressional salaries would dish disproportionately hurt Democrats. And here's why the people Democrats would be trying to punish by not paying congress during a shutdown or the Rick rich tax dodging, Berge Wasi, super Pac citizens United assholes, and those people would then have leverage over the newer, younger members of congress who don't have as much money who haven't sold out and who don't have like twelve shell companies in a separate Bank account full of laundered money during budget negotiations. And I realize that oh Cossio Cortez is advocating for this too. Because she's saying it's the principle of the thing. But I personally think and I could be wrong again, change my mind, we need to stop enacting philosophical and principal ideals that hurt Democrats, politically, I'm not saying take NRA money. You know what I'm saying? Let's not strip congressional salaries from group of people mostly young Democrats in the name of doing the right thing. And I can be talked out of this again. I can we talked off the ledge if you can present an argument, so Julia, what's your argument? Yeah. I love the points. He made it and never considered that. Because I just don't have that understanding of government like you do, but I do still feel like people fundamentally would do more even if they're on the right side of it to do more to fix the issue if their paychecks were on hold I think it's more of like, a basic survival thing, you know, they would. But the problem is is that the people who don't care if they lose the money or usually Republican. Yeah. And really rich, and they have all this money from other players just proportionately affects negatively disenfranchises younger Democratic Congress. Right. And what could the Republicans do with this money to because that's where money and politics is important to like to to I guess fixed. Right. Like, the ideas that they shouldn't be allowed to use that extra money in any way that's affected towards the policy, but that's a whole different issue. I guess right. The the idea of having so much money as a rich Republican or even original McCray. And then using that to influence politics. That's a an issue in itself using the money. They have to influence politics. What they're doing is. They're saying you can take away. My congrats. Salary. I don't care because I'm a zillionaire that you can have my hundred seventy four thousand dollars a year thirty three hundred dollars a paycheck after taxes. I d g f okay? And that way, the Democrats who do care because you know, they all that's their salary, and they don't have all this money. Yeah. Don't have that leverage. And it would give leverage to rich people who don't care if the government is shut down much like Trump doesn't care if the government is shutdown. I make sense into that. I'll just say that they seem like they already don't care, right. Like, they already don't seem to face by the shutdown because of that fact, right? They're not taking their salaries away. Right. But it's such a small dent in their income that I think they don't care either way sway them. It might just way the Democrats more, which sucks that thing that it would be affecting the people that are on the right side of the Democrats never want to shut down the governing. Never do. That's the point. But you're only giving leverage to people who don't care and want to shut the government down. Or don't care if the government gets shut down all the Republicans that rich there might be a couple of them. I'm hoping at least now I'm just spitballing. But I feel like there there might. Be some that would be swayed to do more. But I can see the problem with that. It's tricky. It's very hypothetical. No, probably not. However a disproportionate amount. Just like, yeah. When you try to say that you have to have an idea to vote there are black people with ID's, right? But a disproportional amount of Democrats. Do you know lose again when that happens effective your eight? So it's not like a. Yeah. Of course. Now, all you know, but enough more than enough probably. Yeah. And more tipped toward one side that makes it unfair institutionally the requirement to be in congress in the beginning supposed to be a white landowning, man. So I think that's definitely still continue purveyed. Yeah. Yeah. Have. Yeah. I I'm pretty pretty on the fence about that. It's interesting thinking in central government employees are required to work still that are essential to the functioning or dysfunctioning of the government in this case. So on principle. I can see one hundred percent the argument that especially since people are seeing that it's Congress's fault for the reason that this is being held up because they could just concede to border funding, and you know, obviously, it's much more complicated than that. I get why people would call for that. You said oh Casio Cortes is against it. Or as four not getting paid. Yeah. She wants to take away salaries. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think the Democrats really. Right. The principal. Exactly. But I'm PR y this little doormat eighty right how so because I I feel like she's be most affected, right? She's already kind of poor going in like, she's a good example of someone who you think would be affected, but doesn't mind right? What do you mean by doormat? I guess miss what I'm asking. The Democrats are saying I'm gonna make this high philosophical thing for you. It's going to disproportionately affect Democrats in the American people negatively, but I'm gonna do it for for good for good. And right reasons when you don't have to and that is a problem I've had with Democrats for a while now. Yeah. The not having a good point. I I feel like will. Then why are we had this position? Is that Trump is it, you know, the the Republican, you know, body of congress like I feel like who's responsible then like if further shutdown, right? Yeah. Yeah. Trump's responsible for their thousand percents. He's the problem. We shouldn't freeze every you know, congresses paychecks. We should get rid of Trump as you. You're getting ultimately like the problem on just saying, I don't think you should freeze Congress's paychecks because. Was it? There are people who work in congress who need those paychecks. And those people are the ones who don't want to shut down the grind. Yeah. I I get to. I that's again. I have no official stance. Normally, I love having substantiated. It'd be on the phone like I said, I could be wrong. I I can be giving, you know, going to be talked out of this. Right. Anyone? I'm just curious what the solution would be then to. And I'm sorry to interrupt. You. You can go ahead finish your thought. I mean, I think on on the principle of it. Democrats do typically tend to appeal to a more higher moral standard in the hopes that that's going to pay off exactly in this. Which like you said, it kind of doesn't sometimes. And when you say doormat Isar, you mean, you're handing a you're basically for philosophical ideal. You're handing an advantage over to. Yes. The Republican totally. And it's kind of like, yeah. It further works to sort of subordinate their own power. But I don't know if people PR wise are smart enough to look at that. And see that dynamic. Instead, I think they would more be drawn to the moral appeal sort of Democrats at least, right? Yeah. Yeah. The people that are against the funding for the border wall. And 'cause then there's I mean moral appeal something that citizens. Also, you know have gone on their own brain too. So I'm sure there's a lot of government poise. That are also like I'm down to not take pay. So that they can keep this out of stalemate until you know, hopefully, this does not come to a head in the way that Trump wants it to my here's another example to sit out on voting because the candidate that has been elected in the primary to represent your party doesn't agree with you one hundred percent on all of the issues. And so you're going to sit out and not vote, and and because that's your moral high ground and meanwhile, Trump gets elected children die people die in Syria. Gay people don't get their rights. You know? It's like you make a valid point the money does make a difference. You know, spent when it's frozen like the ultimate solution is to get fucking money out of politics L to put put some term limits in congress. Those are the two alternate solutions. That's way, far fetched idea. Let's not take away government salary until we have a system where everything would still be. Fair if that were taken away during a shutdown. Yeah. Government shutdown should totally stop happening. I used to think that it was supposed to happen because it happens so frequently as I kinda grew up, but then I realized it doesn't have to happen. Like you were saying this never has very new trend over the last day. I feel like we're so young. No that like just growing up like five years ago. Yeah. It's this little bluffing tactic. That people have just taken to the line over and over again and Trump came in at the worst guy they have time because this was happening in the Obama era. So now he gets to just come in and do that and see it through. And he doesn't understand what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck. Absolutely. Or or to be in a in that kind of situate-? In fact, he put out a thing that says, hey, if you here's a letter to give to creditors. If you can't pay your bills, just talk to your personal lawyer. Oh, everyone's like fuck my personal lawyer my public layer. We didn't have that Cohen like. Yeah. Personal lawyer are you talking about and he just is no concept of it. So he's like shut it down. I don't care, and then he actually came out and said these are mostly Democrats affected anyway. Yeah. And at that point, he's not even talking to us anymore. I think he's just like talking to his his own people. And I get it. You know, like he he doesn't care like you said he's so disconnected from reality. He doesn't even care to be connected. It could even be nefarious like killing two birds with one stone thing where he gets the screw over Democrats and blue collar people by doing this a. Yeah, that's very good point. I, but he loves that. I think he lives for it. Anyway, thank you for letting me get that opinion out there. And again, like I said, I I've formulated this in my head, and I could be wrong. I just don't feel like handing an advantage to Republicans for philosophical highground is worth it at this point at this juncture, maybe when we've got a Democratic Senate democratic president then. Yeah, you know, just philosophical shit. Yeah. Yeah. But not right now, finally. Bloomberg reported that by naming Whitaker acting attorney general Trump's ban on bump stocks is no invoice and recently, this is an assertion, by the way, it's not the truth recently. The Trump administration moved to ban bump stocks. That's the thing you put on your gun to make fire more rapidly. And Bloomberg's John Steinberg says that the Justice department can't ban bump stocks because Matthew fucking Whitaker lacks the authority to hold the position. That's his reporting. This is part of a lawsuit filed December twenty sixth day after Christmas merry Christmas. And it's one of a bunch of lawsuits challenging Justice department decisions based on the fact that Whitaker is illegitimate oddly. This is coming from a lawsuit filed by the right wing group firearms policy coalition. So how fucking hilarious is this gun rights. Fuck faces are suing to stay the ban on bump stocks because they say Trump's pick for acting attorney general Matthew Whitaker shouldn't have been put there. It's how ironic would it be if the lawsuit that? Booted Whitaker was a gun right's organization. I would laugh so hard in Trump's stupid face. If this resulted in the removal of Whitaker, knowing the ironic deliciousness of Trump who is beholden to the NRA and gun rights advocacy for funnelling Russian money into his inaugural fund. If he lost his anti Muller walking dildo over a lawsuit filed by a gun rights organization would be so amazing. I can't wait to see what happens in this case. Because who knows how long would occur will be acting AG. We know he's got a seven month. Limit. If any of the other courts in lawsuits, he's embroiled in find him fit to be their constitutionally. But even Trump's new pick for AG Bill bar might not get confirmed unless he recused himself from the more probe, which would no doubt make Trump's butthole pucker because recusals from Muller oversight is the entire reason he fired sessions to begin with not to mention the bump stock band is the first time since the Brady Bill, I think that anyone came for your guns, and it's a frigging Republican. I can't get enough of this. Yeah. I sorry. I was just going to say there's been so many shootings like more and more each year that. Yeah. For public is in power in two thousand eighteen they're going to have to answer to that. Right. I think the NRA's funding it one hundred percent is going down. I heard that they're almost going bankrupt. Whatever the fuck that means for them rich, ask mother one bullets. They've only got a billion dollars left to right. So I wonder if it's one of those things where banning bump stocks. If calculated something that they need to do in order to retain the support that's necessary to keep going forward. And that's why they're going against clever not being able to push that through because they're like dire straits right now. Well, I brought this up a couple of weeks ago. I can't remember with somebody. I might not have been on this show. But they're like, they're banding bump stocks. Yeah. And I'm like big fucking deal. I'm sorry. Yes. It'll help. No. It's not gonna stop mass shooting you need to ban assault rifles. And that's just how it goes Brady. But we need that back in back in action. They lapsed and we need to redo it. So I've always been like. Abani bump stocks. I guess it's it's like a it's like, you're like, please stop killing people, and they go here have some cake instead, and you're like, okay 'cause good, you know, and we're supposed to be sated by this bump stock, man. And so it might have been a situation where they're like we gotta throw him a bone. Like, you said either to continue funding coming into the NRA and donations coming into the NRA because normal people are like can we just get rid of bump stocks? It's it's like saying, you know, what we're going to ban nuclear weapons for use for purchase at WalMart. And you're like, oh, thank you. Thank you. Good survey. And I think the best part like Jordan was saying I think the best part, but the scene most effective part would be to rally up the base through anger about it. Right. Like you were saying just because they're like, oh, they're taking away our guns. He went in really not. And then they start donating to the NRA because they're they're skit. Right. Like, yeah. But with a Republican in office fucking hilarious for eight years. There were like Obama's gonna come for your guns, and he'd never did. He never banned a God damn thing. Now here we are in the Trump era. He's banning bump stocks which by. Away isn't taking away guns. Right. But you know, now, they're like, oh, it's just it's funny to me an and they'll probably kind of move, the goalposts Republicans and gun rights activists be like, well, they're just bump stocks. They're not actual guns. Whatever it's a testament to how big that organization is too because typically people aren't subject to getting polled more to the left. You know? That's usually something that's reserved for like, political representatives, usually lobbyists get to be very pointed. And they get to stay on their course. But they're so big now they're privy to the entire like the hundreds and millions and millions of people that are there base. They're losing money. They're going under desperate, desperate. What's it? Like. And just makes me happy. Oh, yeah. It's the best. It's it's the best then Friday politico published a piece saying lawyers for Trump are invoking the government shutdown to delay. An emoluments case against Trump in the DC and his DC hotel, the government's brief in this case is due January twenty second, but department of Justice lawyers have asked to table the case during the shutdown which gives Trump a really weird incentive to keep the government shutdown for his long as he can the cases on hold indefinitely. We had poked Trump on Twitter to remind him that the shutdown does not affect the Miller pro member we were like, hey, just wanna let you know Muller's funded through next year. But knowing the shutdown prevents the emoluments case for moving forward could provide the reasons Trump back this shutdown in the first place, and how long does he think he can keep this up the rest of his presidency? It's ridiculous. Like, he must. He's desperately. You're saying he's desperate Inari. They're all complicit too. Yeah. Well, the the shutdown eight hundred thousand employees or either. Followed or not being paid thirty two percent. Thirty one point eight percent of the workforce as two years ago. It's probably more by now our veterans. So, you know, just another reason he loves veterans. I'm sure we have listeners to that fall into those categories. So thank you for still working and doing those jobs, even though you're not getting paid as this fucking idiot. I'd be actually would love to hear those stories. Yeah. It was just going to say I was reading on read people's testimonies and someone said that they they're a prison guard in their wife was a prison guard to and they're just sick of every year few months getting their paychecks Rosen. And at first they were blaming a whole congress. You're like, screw Democrats and Republicans and then read it was like, actually, it's the Republicans. And they were like, oh, my bad. You know, like they had to be informed. But a lot of people are too busy. They're just working their jobs to know, exactly. Who's at fault for this? And who's really driving this and who needs to be driven out because of it. I think they're just thinking that politics is like, you know, they want to be jaded to at all. But just watch the video on December eleventh Trump saying all on the shutdown. I'll shut down the government. I'm so glad they got. That camera. Yeah. Chuck Grassley was like, oh, did you just fuck and say that is so important, and I didn't even know how important it was at the time. I was like it's just Trump being loud and obnoxious. But I see now that they needed that to be public because it's a big deal. Yeah. Into out insult to injury. Trump's on an executive order this week freezing raises member that cost of living raise that I talked about one point six percent last year two point eight percent the year before that right zero percent this year, January first none of us get raises. What's so to add insult to injury January eleventh, they will stop getting paychecks. They're furloughed or working for no pay and they don't they don't get their and what was his justification for that. We can't afford it. Oh my goodness. One trillion dollar deficit because of the tax cuts for corporations and the rich, but we can't afford to point six two point five two point eight percent, pay raise for federal employees, which they've yeah. Now Obama froze the pay raises for a while when he took over as president because the economy was in such a shit show. He had to start he had to get revenue. Into the coffers. He couldn't afford anything. Basically he was trying to find money anywhere. We were actually broke down. You're saying the government and the government employees were like it's a recession, man. It's cool. We're just happy to have a job. You know, we're happy to basically give that to percent back to the country right now. So that we can survive this recession great recession. We're in a boom right now. Trump Tout's the economy all the time is stupor great tax cuts. They gave to themselves. I'm so pissed off right now. It's really coming home to roost. It's like they thought it would pay for itself by now. Right. That was the argument that yeah. That they had in Paul Ryan's office. Let's go to the capital. Now, are we talking? I'm so mad. So he shut down the government. He's not paying one hundred thousand people sending them home or making them work for free. And he's taken their raise away on January first signed that executive order. This was a decision. He'll actually made last August, and we reported on it, but he signed the executive order this week. And I was like how he runs his company's probably. Yeah. Seriously. We're going bankrupt because they him, and we don't need to you. And then. Finally on Friday, Trey Goudy and good lot bad lot officially closed closed the investigations into the Muller and investigation and Hillary Email investigation closed officially just so you're aware the Republicans investigated Hillary for the low low price of one hundred million dollars over the last four years in Benghazi and E mail probes and they netted zero indictments zero felony charges zero asset forfeiture zero convictions. The molar probe has made money when you factor in the asset forfeiture net of at least fifteen million. And that's not if you count if you don't count Malaysia we've got a two hundred fifty million dollar yacht. If you count that and he has a thirty eight indictments with two hundred felony charges, and I bet Republicans are tired of all that winning. Oh, so you guys cheers the Email. Hillary Email investigation is officially closed. Ding, ding. You guys. We'll be right back pay a molar junkies. I have heard that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So this year for my news New Year's resolution. I didn't wanna just lose weight. I actually wanted to change my lifestyle. Do you know what I mean? I didn't wanna I didn't wanna do with thing. Because I've done this million times. I it's easy to to just lose weight. Right. But it always comes back. Right. Keeping it off. Yeah. So I'm trying something new you guys should try to its Neum. It's a fitness coach of food tracker a step counter and a nutritionist all in the palm of your hand. Just from the app, it's not a diet. Like, I said, it's a lifestyle changes focused on self care, which really big on here and psychology. So there's no guilt. And there's no shame because we all you know, we make mistakes, but they don't consider them mistakes. Absolutely. They give you been a little pro tip sometimes day by day. They have these. A little exercises. You read articles that are really helpful. And they really go into the psychology of making sustainable team change. And they help you think of what your goal is something that's not just I wanna lose weight. It's why do you want to be healthier and? Yeah. So that you have like a super big goal and then like mini goals to get there. And they teach you how to set realistic goals. So the will keep letting yourself down basically, I don't know. It's just really wonderful. I've been using it for about two weeks and the interface is super friendly. It's I love the food tracker. They make it really simple to to log your food. Definitely. And there's also a step counter integrated into the app. So it actually adds the calories back onto your calorie budget for you that you can eat if you've walked a lot that day. Yeah. And there's a little do more where you can add any exercise you've done that day. So that way if you you know, like, we say listen to the pod. Get on the elliptical your seven hundred calories. You put that in there. You get seven hundred more calories for the day. Yeah. It's really I I really like it's working really. Well, so. Far same it makes it like a game. And makes it a lot more fun than just okay? Don't eat and exercise a lot. It totally changes the game. So new MRs Seinfeld results to meet your New Year's resolution by signing up for your trial today at noon, that's an OEM dot com slash AG. What do you have to lose, right? Visit new dot com slash AG to start your trial today again, but his Neum dot com slash AG and start losing weight for good. All right. Welcome back. Hot notes. Hot notes today. Jordan is gonna give us the latest on Rudy Giuliani and his lube the truth tour, but I ju- Lisa. You have some news. What did the New York Times and cover regarding Trump's feet? Oh, yes. I love that very dramatic on Wednesday. You new world the foot bar. Nobody wants to buy. Oh god. Exactly. No. So on Wednesday. Whenever you're ready. Sorry. It's Trump areas who all right on Wednesday. The New York Times published an article called did a queens podiatrist helped Donald Trump avoid Vietnam. And the short answer is most likely. Yes. But here's the article. So we reported in previous episodes how after using a all of his four education. Deferments Trump was conveniently diagnosed with bone Spurs in his heels that's providing him with medical exemption from the military during the Vietnam war and for fifty years, the details of this medical exemption have been very mysterious even Trump can remember which foot it was honor which doctor he went to. But this week we have elite on a possible explanation. And it involves a foot doctor in queens who rented his office from Trump's dad, Fred Trump, which hints at a possible squid pro quo. So the podiatrist was I didn't know he rented his office from Fred Trump. Yeah. So he's a white guy. Well that was given. The name yet. Okay. Wait, the deiontrez was Dr Larry bronze. Oh, yeah. Who died more than ten years ago? Yeah. But his daughter case daughters are carrying the legacy on of Trump's lies legacy. The foot ac-. I'm so sorry. I was quick Lewis. Yeah. So the daughters now see that their dad kicking comebacks a love it the daughters. Now see that their dad often told them the story of how he came to quote, a young Mr. Trump's aid during the Vietnam war as a favor to his father and one of the daughters. Dr Elissa Bronstein said that her father implied that Trump did not actually have a disqualifying foot Illman go figure she also said that what her dad got in return for helping but it in his calendar. A let's a question right at these count each week like when he hung out with squeeze. Yes foot day. Does he have it and put out? Yeah. Yeah. She also said that what her dad got in return for helping Donald Trump was access to Fred Trump. She said, quote, if there was anything wrong in the building my dad would call and Trump would take care of it immediately. That was the small favor that he got. Well. So he was actually a good landlord. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, you know, illegally. So yeah, you have to help Evita draft, son. Yeah. Scratch my back. So the bronze seen family also suggested that there was some involvement by second podiatrist named Dr Manny Weinstein, but unfortunately, Weinstein died in nine hundred five and no paper evidence has been found to help cooperate the families versions of events. However, the city directories show that Weinstein did live in to Brooklyn apartments owned by Fred Trump, and it also shows that he moved into the first apartment during the year, Donald Trump received his medical exemption in in twenty sixteen interview Trump said that a doctor provided quote, a very strong letter about the bone Spurs in his hills, which was presented to the draft officials. How? Ever in that same interview Trump failed to mention any connection between his father and the doctors involved. And of course, the White House refused to make Trump available for follow up interview or response to the written questions about his service record, why Trump Britain questions, what are you trying to get? So the interesting thing about the New York Times reporting on this is that they are the ones that seem to be slowly building this case about Fred Trump illegally using his wealth and privilege to assist his son. We've seen it with their article about how Freddie legally help Trump with the casinos now with the Vietnam war draft. And a lot of people are speculating on this happened for a while. I just love how the New York Times is like coming really hard with the facts, they you know, they seem to really have the whole picture foot. Fat slip fax. Yeah. Hashtag this week on foot fan on Trump TV. So a fellow doctor named Alec teen. These guys are they all related who worked with documents dean. It's New York. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. So this guy worked with Dr brownstein in the late nineteen ninety s and he said that he quote or Bronstein quotes spoke very highly of the Trump's because. They were very open to negotiating with him and letting him stay in the space out a rent. He was comfortable with. That's good doctors at negotiate. That's not terrifying. At all. And then Trump's dad like, obviously, he's not like this kind hearted Jenner is guy. Just like. Yeah. Man. Whatever works for you. Do podiatrists have to take the Hippocratic oath. That's funny. But I don't I don't know if they do. Yes. I would imagine doctors. I I guess you gotta go to medical school. And then get a podiatrist specialty. He usually swear to protect the maybe he's like, you know, swear to do no harm. Maybe he thought keeping him out of Vietnam is the best way. Oh, two. Yeah. They're like trust me, if my son goes he's just gonna use everyone like a human shield like when my fat cat gets outside. He secretly saved his ass kicked. You can't defend yourself buddy, come on twenty five pounds staying inside point. So just rapid come on. But he way two hundred thirty nine past stay inside, buddy. You don't wanna go to Vietnam or thing. So Brunton bitch tits pitched, that's my cat's name, but Trump. Yeah. Brunson's daughter said that his role in Trump's military exemption was something their relatives. And friends would always discuss because at first her father was proud that he had held a famous guy. But later the lifelong democrat and World War Two vet grew tired of Donald Trump's reality TV nonsense. So also something interesting from this article is that Bronstein daughter suggested that a possible explanation for Dr Weinstein's involvement, the second doctor, and the exemption is that he had some connection to the draft itself. Like, maybe he was one of the guys on the board that finalizing exemption. So that's what they're speculating. Just ask the end was a podiatrist on the draft board who decided who who could not go. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like the Trump's reality TV was the thing that really said that guy the only alive for the presidency. Jesus wasn't the draft-dodging World War Two veteran. Right, right. Yeah. That it wasn't. So although I will say that I feel like, but I'm not sure because it wasn't really wasn't alive. At the time. I was dead at the time the World War Two veterans didn't see Vietnam as like a quote, unquote, real war. You know? So maybe they were like y'all help you go to Vietnam. What a bullshit piece of shit, right? Or he seeing the war, the horrors of the war, and he's like or in his spare you. Yeah. Legal saving his life. Right. Like do. No harm. That's his. That's maybe we can say that logic. And he also was a democrat and Trump was a democrat at the time. So this, you know, the whole karate, unfortunately for Trump was a democrat. Oh, yeah. He probably thought this was like a good chap back when Democrats kicked black people out of apartment, building laughing. Those were the days. Yeah. Trump chameleon. Oh, yeah. But not as majestic. Oh, no, not with the is that go different directions box creature is really I haven't seen bird box there. They never showed the creature. I thought it was some weird thing was we were going to advertise for like. Oh, yeah. I ended tweet today. Those like today. Learn that bird boxes, not a live bird monthly subscription service. I've seen that too. Like a million times. Hack. Oh, yeah. That's an old one. That's good week old or so oh man that you quick deleting. Now, I will not be a good damn heck. Well, we it was a person who tweeted, oh, wait. I don't know if the person who could have been joyless. Oh, definitely else. I'm deleting. It we don't we don't. We don't do it by fame. Okay. It's gone by. I like it though, Jordan. Hey, great minds, think alike. Yeah. I mean, it is I should have known. It was too good to be true. Hate that. When you write a joke, and you're like that has to be taken. Yeah. And then you go Glidden. It is all right, anyway, let's see. Yeah. I I was wondering myself what what like what does the foot story have to do with Muller? Right. And I think it's just connecting the lies the family has been have been covering up and just their their behavior. It seems because otherwise, I don't know. What else? I do. What do you think Muller didn't dodge the draft? Oh, it's a personal thing personal. Okay. Fun fact about personal. I something we haven't said on the show. I don't think, but I heard on the news this week is that Muller actually did a medical examination. I think a year before he actually went went to war. And they said that he had a knee issue that he had to get healed. And he wants it healed. He went back to the doctor and said, okay, my ready for warn. He actually had a legit medical reason to not go. He's still win drag it out. Nope. That's incredible. I know someone that's such a bad asset. I can't say because I don't know. Maybe it's hard to say who it is whatever it is this person has a peanut allergy. Yeah. And they've been lying the whole time about having a peanut allergy because they want to serve so badly. Also, they've. Been trying like like like a pretty bad peanut allergy not like they have peanuts. And they immediately die. But it's they have like a whole fucking reaction, and they carry an epi pen and everything and they've been slowly fee themselves like peanut butter sandwiches, over the course there live try to like desensitize themselves to the peanut allergy because he wants to serve and he does serve he's a fucking bad ass. But any time there's like peanuts and Maureen stuff you just have to like, not eat it. I'm not hungry. Yeah. They throw peanuts the enemies that peanut allergy could keep you out of the military of for what he does. Okay. I think for the job that. Yeah. I like you can't be colorblind to be a pilot. But you could be colorblind and be anything else. I think it's it's like, yeah. At this stuff that he's doing he for the military getting. Yeah. Just kidding. He's on like really small teams and stuff in. He's like, yeah. Is central. Okay. Right. And a lot of the as have nut products in them. So you have to be real careful. And so they just said, we're I guess it's it's just makes sense on these small special ops groups to not have anyone with peanut allergy. Yeah. Makes sense. But it's cool that he's still doing his thing though. Yeah. He's a fucking bad ass. It's the opposite of Trump. Right. Yeah. Education comments and like a bone spur. Yeah. Yeah. Back to back education. Affirmative. And then he went with the medical thing want. Yeah. College football. So. Yeah. That's that's story feet. But facts, yes, if you foot fetish, you probably really are into that one for sorry, probably shooting very torn the ugly. But I hate Trump. I don't wanna see Trump's feet just there's so many other fee tiny feet men. Right. Gotta be any balance a sequel to happy feet. Minus Robin Williams. That's why it's tiny terrible. Chinese terrible. Oh, yeah. Jordan. You have a Giuliani update. Yes. So we learned this week from Giuliani himself in this interview that possible further questioning adult Trump by special counsel's office is still being negotiated. So they're not only discussing the scope of further questioning, but there just discussing if further questioning is going to happen at all. So no idea basically would is happening when asked to confirm if it's his understanding that mower might wish to interview Trump over the phone or in person Guiliani said, quote, it hasn't been formally closed yet and that loop hasn't been closed. So all right. So they aren't so very open or is not satisfied. Basically is what wells down to? And I didn't think he would be when he got his answers back from the written questions because I knew that those written answers were probably like, maybe I don't recall perhaps could be I don't know for sure good night. Thank you. So I I'm sure that and even if he did answer something on the reason anyone would want a face to face interviews. You can ask follow up questions. Right. Because that's how you get to something investigation's work, and this is just for collusion conspiracy aiding and abetting this has nothing to do with obstruction. Right. Because he he's Muller said, I can't give you written questions for obstruction. I need to get to the intent. And I have to talk to you to get that. Yep. Yeah. Exactly. So no dates have been set for anything officially. But obviously this would be like a have you said a day. Have you said up the save the day? God. Yes. Save the day since your hope is being questioned by grand jury. That'd be amazing. Obviously, it would be a huge deal of Trump was going to be questioned over the phone or in person specifically because he has like a self destruct tower that goes off after seven seconds of speaking in the flesh every time it's like, I can't have a truth. Disability. Norman. Coordinates be trip. Smoke comes out of it. If only he was a robot that fucking scientists would be so shamed of himself or just like, this is amazing. He's a Russian scientist like you made him watch like the blue collar comedy tour. Our president Larry the cable guy, did you go with them? Ron way, the cable guy billing all those guys. And you know, you may remember you have you seen all the things where we watched a we made a I watch thousand hours of friends and write a friends episodes. Yeah. This would be a funny version of that we sent to seventeen rodeos and now actually I shouldn't Barra love radio so used to barrel race. I can't think of a good thing. Anyway. Yeah. So watch we watch thousand hours of Fox News. And we came up with the president robot. Love that. I mean, I hate that. But love that. Yeah. And so just a reminder that earlier this month is when Giuliani said that Trump would sit for an in person interview over his dead body. Yeah. Yeah. And then added, but you know, I could be dead. So maybe we're just seeing the ghost of Giuliani now, thus giving him his new nickname Guliani. Yeah. Rudy guiliani. So I was thinking like how likely is it that this interview is going to happen in person or over the phone well CNN earlier this month reported that Moeller definitely wants the questioning to happen has been telling everyone in his inner circle that he hasn't made a decision yet as if he really has a choice in the end, but Muller will placate him for now. I think and keep doing what he's doing. And Trump also said last month that his written answers to molar would probably be quote, the end huge judge saying, I'll be the. It'll be the judge of that back to us this week. Yeah. I don't know, man. I feel like I he I think that if I were Muller would subpoena him, and he actually we did our book club about fear by Bob Woodward that last chapter allow chapter to I think it was actually short chapter forty two where they were talking about, you know, I'm going to subpoena him, and then endowed just goes off on this weird. Right. He freaks the fuck out. You can't I'm going to show. You lurk. My words. Calm down. Right. Come down Dowd. Yeah. Nice courtroom etiquette. He's like, but I you know, I need to talk to him. So I wouldn't be surprised, and we did think that the secret subpoena battle was Trump for a minute. It's not it's foreign entity own state owned entity. But I I really think that Muller's now going to be satisfied without a face to face interview with the president particularly on obstruction. Absolutely. And yet just like you said because Muller knows Muller's been watching him. He knows how he answers questions this. This is the ideal environment to get a case, I won't even say to get a case against him because that would imply that Miller has some sort of ideal outcome in mind. But yeah, Melissa's wants the true. Yes. And not trying to trap him. He just wants the truth of it. And I feel like Muller would let something slip to get to the truth. Like, he's not going to be like God, you got you thousand one thousand one right? I feel like he'd be he his main motivation in his number one goal is to get to the truth intent at least for obstruction definitely. And you're going to get and he knows this. You're gonna get the most leads in the most information that is consequently when you just let Trump fuck in vent therapy because he says so much it. It. Okay. Do this every time you do Giuliani update. You're like first of all Stephanopoulos, hadn't asked him any questions, and he comes out of the gate like offers it up. It's like all right, dude. Thanks and even ask. Yeah. About that same thing with Lester Holt when Trump said he fired Komi for the Russia thing he's like didn't ask. But thanks for the info. Yeah. And speaking of Giuliani on Wednesday he said quote negotiations haven't formally ended yet. They haven't ended because it's not just my opinion that matters. There are other lawyers involved and the president of the United States. Of course, my opinion is I don't trust them. I look at how they treated Manafort Flynn and Coursey I love that. He just three criminals. Yeah. Ula, south three criminals, two of which have already undergone sentencing proceedings of Flint is to come next year. And I guess Coursey is TB de criminal. But I think we all know how. We all know how that's going to turn out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he'll go number or not have known Burg full number. He is going to be. We need something we need we need my Wiley to speak to him. We just do an inter talk them off a ledge with him numbered an expert at that one of her little credits now and she gets on the shows. She is she's so good at that. She must have been so satisfied in that interview with number. God just like this is fucking gold's lawyer gold relate. This is comedy gold. She's like this is legal gold. Yeah. So good legal commentator gold. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Reporting more leave the truth. I'm sure there will be more next week. Yeah. Alright. Sweet you guys for today's hot note. I have created a Sweet Sixteen bracket for the top news stories of twenty eighteen. So it's time for Muller madness. All right. So I got it in my head on Thursday night that I was going to put together a bracket of the top. Like, I didn't know how to cover twenty eighteen. So I'm like, you know, what I'm gonna go through. I'm going to find the top stories. What I think are the sixteen top stories of two thousand eighteen I did