20 Episode results for "California Department Of Corrections"

Episode 50:  Richie Reseda on teaching feminism to reduce recidivism

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1:12:01 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 50: Richie Reseda on teaching feminism to reduce recidivism

"Podcast listeners. Welcome to gendered the show that features stories that explore the systems practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression Pollution's to end it. We use gender as the lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonize hearts and minds. One story at a time and gender. Sponsored by can do it spelled. K. A. N D IT. And I'm your host Terry UN on this episode of engendered our guest is Ritchie. Reserva also known as Richard Edmund Vargas. An artist activist and entrepreneur Richie was formerly incarcerated at his experiences were featured in the CNN documentary, the feminist cell block, y in the film Ritchie's, depicted using the texts of black, feminist Bill hooks to lead group lessons on patriarchy and toxic masculinity. Which is work came out of a collaboration with Charles berry, which started in twenty thirteen to educate other incarcerated men and launched in February twenty fourteen. Under the name success stories, we speak to you today about his experience, developing the curriculum, it's excess and success stories nonprofit that he founded which has secured partial funding from the California Department of corrections and me habilitation to support this work towards the sabotaging national presence in reducing recidivism. Welcome richie. Thank you so much for joining us on the show today. All right. Thank you for having me. Let's start with your background. Not much has been written about that. Where did you grow up and what kind of family environment, did you have a grew up in Los Angeles, California in a working class? Part of Los Angeles called the San Fernando Valley, I grew up with both my mom and dad in the home. My dad being religious conservative black Christian from the projects in my mom being a liberal Jewish white woman from New York, in who moved to the suburbs. And my dad were two jobs for most of my life. So he was gone from about three AM about five or six times, eight PM working to support us, and my mom usually work as well as a secretary how did she feel with your parents having to balance that kind of work schedule? I think I grew up kind of disconnect. Acted for my dad base on him working so much, and as much as we have a great relationship. Now, I think it led to, like some strange mint in our relationship between all of the working, and me kind of developing a sense of south that was very different than what he wanted from his sons, which was very traditional play sports. Get good grades kind of man's man kind of expectations us in me turning out to actually be very more into art in music, and fashion, and things like that. Yeah. So, I feel like that him working so much definitely contributed to that. And then because of his Christian beliefs in beliefs in physical punishment of children to maintain order in the household, I, you know, he was he was the one who was the disciplinarian N would often do that physically. And I kind of just related to him as. The guy who comes around just to spank us, or to get the belt out rather than as somebody who I had like a deep love relationship with. And what role did your mother play in those situations? You've referenced her as a liberal Jewish white woman. I can't imagine that. She would take a passive role in those situations. Well for a long time, at least from my childhood perspective, felt like she did. Because even though I know she disagreed with it, and that's not how she was raised. She still allowed it to happen are. No. When I was really young. I know this now that she the boundary that she held was not hit us with anything that extended from the hand in that boundary was respected for a little bit. But me and my two brothers. You know, we all past six feet when we were ten eleven years old. So we're just big kids. And so, my dad, you know, moved to moved over to a bell in my mom allow that or while. And then eventually, she my mom is was very passive in my memory of her in my childhood and did very much. Play out, you know, her roles in patriarch, even though she didn't want to. She cooked even though she hated cooking. Even if my dad got home before her, she would get off work pick, as all up then cook food end. She, she really wouldn't stand up to my dad. At least what I saw again is child. She really wouldn't end up to my dad. He was kind of the decision maker of the house until I remember the last time he ever hit me. He was hitting me with the belt and my mom came in. And she told him, no more. And he said, we're done here in she. She thought he meant day were done here that he wasn't gonna speak to her. And she was like, no more. And she actually stepped in between him. And I and then he said we an pointed me him. Instead our Dan here like he was talking to me and telling me to leave, so I left and that was the only time I see my mom really stand up and in Collin into that, and it was the end of it. I was never that never happened again. That. Just to clarify how old were you I was pretty old at that point? I want to say twelve am I understanding this correctly, your father meant that he wanted you to leave the home or that he? I'll leave the room. Okay. Got it. We was basically telling me, you know that the punishment was over, and it's time to leave in whatever was going to go down between him. My mom was none of my business like it's time to get out of here child like leave the room we're done here. I see. So that was the last time he his touched you in that way. And did that physical harm transferred to other people in the family? Yeah. That was the, the way that my dad in many Christians in black Christians in particular are taught to raise their families through, you know, physical punishment. So, yeah, I mean me in both of my brothers. Were spanked or you know, as we is all kinds of nicknames that people give it in cultures spanked, would whatever but it was, you know, spanked with the hand or hit with the bell. But that's also my cousins were raised at my dad was raised at that is the norm on that side of my family. Honestly, I most of my friends were had much more violent treatment from their parents than I did. I actually felt embarrassed that it wasn't as like my time. I got to middle school. I felt like I would have to. I would wanna like overstate it because my friends were getting like punched in the face, like getting him full on fights. You know what I mean getting whipped with switches in extension cord than I thought like oh, like that's tough like, they're, they're tough because they've been through that, and I haven't been through that. So let me overstate the what, what they can place in my house, which when I look back on that. Now, actually, very sad. At that point when you were on the receiving end of that behavior. Was there a consciousness that you had that, that this was not healthy for you or what the impact it was on your emotional, development, and wellbeing? No to me, it was like I said it was normal, and it was, I had the lighter treatment of most of the people who I knew most my earned for my age. So I never thought about it. But I know that it made me not like not just my dad. And so how did you end up learning about intersectional feminism? I heard that, that was something that you had been exposed to prior to your incarceration. Yeah. So I kinda put it in context of a little bit of my background. I when I started really embracing toxic masculinity, myself was also announced in middle school. And, you know, I embraced it a very racially is Len. I understood like in order to be a quote unquote, real black man, I have to be like, the black man who is on TV or or like the older kids by oh, I had to be tough had to be motionless ahead to do drugs. I had to be violent I had to be against basically. So that too, I decided to be when I was twelve and you know, I started using drugs now while of selling drugs. Announce thirteen. And when I was fourteen I was put in a program that was started by my mentors. My mentors to this day. Mark. Anthony Johnson Patrisse Cullors where they were basically organizing youth to be community. Organizers, they, they were teaching us how to be community. Organizers program was established at my high school in they were going out of the way to kind of find at risk kids to bring into this program. So I was in, you know, they put all of us these fails all on the same track of classes in Patrice, Mark. Anthony. Came in and started teaching us about mass incarceration. In the school to prison pipeline in it resonated with me. I started going to the meetings in being really involved with that. And it was in those training programs community organizing training programs that I, I learned about feminism, I didn't know the term, intersectional feminism at the time, but I was reading everyone who we are reading were, were black, feminists at the time, Mark, Anthony was taking me to men's groups, where we were reading bell hooks. We're reading Audrey Lord. We were so those are the kinds of writers, who don't that was my introduction to feminism when I was fourteen and what, what did you think when you were first exposed to those bucks. It locked in for me. It wasn't. It was never hard for me to to believe or to get because I knew, you know, by the time. I was fourteen night, and I made Patrice a Mark. Anthony, I knew that something was going on. I knew it was not right by that point. I'm fourteen years old by that point had been arrested three times once for play fighting once relieving school early in once for like scraping. The dirt there was so much dirt on my desk. I could scrape it off with my house key. And it came off, like a film, and, you know, fourteens I thought that was cool. I was doing it in. I got arrested for vandalism in accused of being a gang member. So I knew that racism was in, in this, you know, two thousand six so it was pretrial pre-obama, it was just in time when people were like acting like racism was not a thing anymore, so it wasn't hard for me to believe that other systems of repression where thing like I never just was under the fantasy that there's only one end of oppression in the world, I had recently, I was raised very Christian. I stopped being Christian when I was fourteen. When I came across the passage in the bible that says that women shouldn't teach in the church that was my first, like, wait, what I came across it reading one day and asked my dad about it. He was basically like ask God, I thought that was that didn't make sense in them when, you know, this around the time of the Iraq war, Iraq war was already a few years in, but when that one church was going to when they were sending the bodies back from the Iraq war. There is at church, who would go outside in protests in basically, with a with signs. It's like God hates Fags, and it would be like this thing that Iraq war was like punishment or homosexuality in America. Remember? My dad watching that on TV and me saying with wrong with them. And he said, you know, I, I disagree, I agree with what they're saying disagree with how they're saying it or something like that. And that's when I was like, oh, we're done here with me in Christianity. I that's what I underst- I used England. The world is bad. In Christianity, was like good. And then I realized that it was more complicated than that. So, yeah. Fast forward to win. I'm hearing about feminism homophobia like when I'm learning about these things. Explicitly in organizing academy. It wasn't hard for me to believe at all. For the, the people who at school. Got you arrested for the play fighting in the leaving school early in the scraping. The dusk, the dirt from the desk, where they all white teachers know they were the cops Los Angeles unified school district has armed police officers on campus. So it wasn't the teachers it was actual cut. I think the scraping, the dirt off the desk. It was a white teacher who is in the classroom harshly called the school cop coming at me. But the other times when I was play fighting with that kid, we're like wrestling around, you know this one else twelve it was the cops who came in arrested. Both of us were were both black kids in came interested us known. I was thirteen is when I left school early to get a haircut and it was the cops came came. And got me that day to, to. There are cops that are on school basically as security guards. Yeah. There they, there's an entire police. Department in the county of Los Angeles called the Los Angeles school police department on gency in their armed, and they are on most campuses at all grade levels, the working class poor areas there on a hundred percent of the campuses, and they are aren't and they're still there. I'm guessing California is a more neoliberal than I would than progressive, and our. Progressivism really tapers off when you start talking about criminal Justice, we city of Los Angeles, spins literally half of its budget on police we have the biggest prison system of any state. The prison budget in California's twelve billion dollars with a B. Yeah, we're not, we're not progressive when it comes to those when you were arrested than when you serve time at the correctional training facility, this is in Soledad, California was at the time that the last time that you were arrested or the first time that was the last time. So I was when I was nineteen I robbed two stores. In was charged with. Evan robberies to kidnappings in a deadly weapon facing a hundred and fifty years double life sentence. And I played out to ten years, and I went to California state prison and I spent seven years, there for and a half of which was at the California training early correctional training facility on where we started. Success stories in more CNN shop documentary. I see what was the experience like at civility. It was very different. So, by the time I got to the Tf, I had been in prison for two years, a year in LA county jail, which is to this day. The most terrible place of ever been extremely violent extremely violent on from from all directions. Especially from the cops sexual violence from the cop just terrible. That's why the sheriff of Los Angeles is in prison right now. We then got sent to high security, prison are in calif-. Any other called level reaper than but it's high security, where there is no programs, it was locked all the time, very violent place. And then I went to after a year there, I went to a medium security prison with proceed Tf in the culture. There was very different. There is a very prominent culture of going to self help groups, and I started going in the self help groups that I was going to. We're not challenging patriarchy now for me having mentors. Like Katrina, Mark Anthony, having a wife, like Tina, my, the conversations around self transformation, that I've always had all the way back when I was fourteen were always centered around feminism in challenging patriarch in understanding patriarch is the source of male violence. So to go into the self-help groups where they were not only were they not counting patriarchy, but they were upholding patriarchy was a shock to me. And you know, I only tolerated for a little bit before. I was like you know what I'm gonna try to do some patriarchy workshops here. Like the ones that went through now's a kid and, you know, the first time I tried. I had to another people's groups in unite got laughed out, laugh out of the room. And that's like, you know, I told Charles, we gotta start around group in Ness, when we started success stories backing up a little bit CT f what made you eligible for the change from a higher security to a medium security prison. Was there some set of behaviors that you engaged in that, that made you eligible for that there's a whole system, they call it a point system in the California prison system that they use to determine if you're going to be maximum high medium minimum security? It's bit. It's like a whole, you get the younger, you are the more points, you get. But if you're married, that takes points off, or if you're in the military takes points off, what kind of conviction you have will determine how many points you get? So. I ended up when I got to prison from Los Angeles County jail in a calculated my point I was just in the range of a high security. I was I was low enough that they could have sent me to a medium security, but when I went to my with a call classification where they make a decision. You know, the person who's running the meeting. Who's like a at the captain level. They said, hey, you know this kid, he's only a couple of points over a level two. Let's him to a medium security and my counselor. The person's will be representing me says, you know, we he's a first timer. Twenty year old black kid. He's gonna start problems. Send him to a high security and person running the show said, okay? And that's what they did. And I didn't even know allowed to talk. So I just watched the whole thing go down. Then they sent me to high security prison in a place called Susan Bill California, ten ten hours away from my home in the northeast corner of California, and that's why I went for a year in because I was there for year and didn't get any trouble every year your points go down as long as you don't get in trouble. So when my points go down than thou so close medium-security anyway. I was now, meeting security eligible in transport out L in Charles E said you started you wanted to start your own group. What was? The process like for getting approval and recruitment. It was a long one, we spent about five months, just researching curriculum developing curriculum in trying to figure out how do we even go about starting groups? So I, I was there is a group that already exists in that we're both a part of that Charles cousin his, his blood cousin who at that point been in prison for about thirty years was in the leadership of that group in this group was very well respected by the Lieutenant in captains in. They had more time in space than they knew what to do. So I had went to some of their meetings Saturday meetings. Nobody came on, it'll be like people in there, and they didn't really, they really didn't even know what to do how to program that time. So I said, hey, why don't you let us take over your Saturday in? We'll just be considered a project of your group in Charles cousin was on board. He kind of helped us get the other leadership on board. All of whom are out now in in good. Friends of mine. And yeah, they gave us the go ahead to use that Saturday slot. And on February second two thousand fourteen. We started success stories, right there in their Saturday slot, the how long was the slot and how many people were in the program. It was it was an hour and a half long. It was from three to four thirty, and we on our first day, we had thirty six people show up in, I remember I was really proud of that, because, you know, that was just me Charles with our whole thing was that we were seeking out, active young people when I mean, active. I mean still involved with gang still involved with drugs. Still, like in it still in their meth, like not 'cause there's people in prison who've been in printing for twenty years old, old people in who you know, are not involved in anything, and, of course, all kinds of people in between that don't fit in either of those groups. But we, we actively wanted to seek out people who are eight at the time in charge between one and we. New based on the research that we did that people who are twenty five and under have the highest rates of recidivism recidivism. It doesn't start to taper off until about thirty five so those are that now's the age group that we targeted. So just we just went out, one by one and just organized people to come in. I actually surprised that those are the statistics, I wouldn't logically think that the Molder, you are the more likely are to, to recommit re-offend. You're saying that I'm saying the younger, you are the more like the right, okay? So then the wh why is that? Well, I think that it has to like brain development, like we know that go, specifically young men brains are now developed fully developed until twenty five on. But I also think it has to do with our systems. Current model of trying to. Coerced people into being docile rather than transform people in, in get in harness their best cells or best energy, or the troop attentional. So by the time people are older. They're just more docile. They're older. People are just more chill. The people who are older just on a psychological level, take less risks. So most people like when I need a lot of doing the work in success stories into being a feminist person who talks about feminism with six men. You know, people who are fifty or Justice patriarchal and toxic as people who are twenty but they might not go out of their way to go. Do something harmful just because they're tired. At the post the twenty year olds twenty two year olds twenty three year old who also want that patriarchal approval from other men might be willing to go shoot somebody or it, they might be willing to go rob somebody for it. The thirty six people that showed up the first day of your class were, they aware of what they were going to be discussing or was were they under the impression that it was gonna be Charles's relatives curricula that they were going to be exposed to we the way that we frame success stories in the way that we see our work is, we're trying to help the participant be successful. What the participant wants to be successful? We're not here to tell you how to be, we're here to help you get clear on what you want, and do away with things that are holding you back from accomplishing net. And within that we understand that patriarchy is the primary impediment to our success. So. Yeah. Folks news going to be a different curriculum by the simple fact that they had twenty one year olds walking up to them saying, hey, joined this group out unheard of at the time, people of our age group? We're not participating in stuff of culture, let alone leading it. Then we were just clear. This is our thing. We didn't even mention that we were a subgroup of the other program. I mean maybe we should have. But we didn't. We, we always framed it as this is our thing. Everybody in our age everybody got tattoos on their faces and stuff like this is us like we're trying to be successful. So people showed up, and then we started talking about, and it wasn't like a bait and switch the whole the whole program is rooted in you make successful in what you wanna do. But we just have an a hole a unit of the program talking about patriarch, because we understand HR is a primary impediment to our individuals. It seems that this conversation, whether you're talking with youth, or adults of defining. What success is, is not something that we do as a society in general. I'm wondering, like, how difficult it was for the participants in your group to even identify something that was substantive beyond, let's say, fame or wealth. Yeah. I mean, success stories grew alongside our participants. So it's a a while it's a. Few years before we really had a curriculum that was anything like what, what folks who saw the feminists on sub like, why we were we opened up with what is your definition of success in people just kind of answered in it really? Sometimes people gave great answers. Sometimes we will say I'm trying to have a lot of money in we didn't, you know, really have a standard way how to expand that. But by the time we were couple years in, we had kind of reappropriated in edited this exercise from another program, and we called arbitration top-five, and we basically have people list out the five most important people in their lives in the five goals, they wanna accomplish before they die. And then we had them whittle that down to a list of just five things. Whether it be two one three of the other, or it doesn't matter just five in that now we have. A very clear definition of what we mean by success, the being the state of being where you're best serving these goals in these people. So what kind of response did you get when, when the participants I were in these groups was there. Was there resistance to the age of the facilitators was resistance to the concept? How do they respond to the idea of patriarchy and feminism? The facilitators always an asset or us because our participants were our ages. Well, the response to the conversation around patriarchy and feminism where exactly what you would expect them to be. It was turmoil. A lot of pushback. A lot a lot of pushback for years, sometimes threats of violence. It was it got pretty it got pretty intense times having those conversations teaming threats during the class during the group or afterwards like intimidation like, don't do this anymore. This is bullshit. Not. There was not, not one don't do this anymore, but I've had. During the Silivatere training. I remember one of our Silivatere gotten my face was like trying to fight me because he kept. He kept saying what I can't, you know, we're talking about toxic masculinity news. Basically saying I can't not be that way, because what this happens what if somebody slashing what if someone tries take my step, what if somebody caused me to be where and I said, bro, you're living like a victim and imprison there's, there's like a culture around the word victim where the victim is a person, get stabbed in wheeled away, by the ambulance, so you don't call someone victim. It's like a threat almost especially for guys who've been in prison for a long time. It, it might not be seen that way so much anymore. But that's the way he heard the word big. When I said that I never know any llegado been my face. We're gonna fight and I'm like probably. I'm not saying like so it was moments like that, where it wasn't necessarily stopped having those, they're definitely times where people are like stop having. Those conversation like gang gang leaders and stuff like that trying to press up like stop teaching people that, like neutralizing, you know, my, my obviously, they're not going to say that we were neutralizing there, folks. The people who they, they had under their thumb, there, is that too, but it, it looked all types of ways to where people who were affiliated with gangs while they were imprison. How does that? I mean this might sound naive. But how do they actually hardly actually a part of that culture still if they're physically separated? And how are they influenced by is it through the fan like visitors the family? Imprison to there. There are prison gangs, but they're different gangs, and the ones that they were part of kind of, but they're, they're attached. No there without getting too much into it. Basically, it's like depending on where you're from on the streets will depend how you act in what you do while you're prison. I see so basically d- allegiances carry through wherever they are. And it restricts them from having, let's say relationships with people outside of their groups, sometimes, but it all kinds of things I mean, basically what it comes down to California. Prison is covering prison segregated by race. Not not at an official level, though. There is definitely some complicity with, with the CDC, our agency sees our agency is compliant and benefits from it, and therefore doesn't. Do much change it. But there is there at the at the cultural level within prisons, California prisons are segregated by race, and then, again, by, like gang or area on, like what part of California, you're from. And therefore, if two people of different races from two different parts of California. Get in a fight. It's not just between those two people. It's about everybody who shares their race and everybody who shows they're part of California. So that's how prison. Right. So we're telling people put your family are not your family by the people who you love the most and your highest goals ahead of these expectations that you have to be violent in order to be a real man. We are now threatening that power structure, and those people who benefit from that power structure in prison. So those are the kind of people who are not feeling what we were doing. What is the participant? Put into their top five categories their allegiance to their loyalty as, as one of the goals, how do you how do you negotiate that conversation? We in. In all my years in success stories. We never had one person put allegiance to their gang in their top five. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, it's the. That just goes to show. We, we do have an entire 'cause accessories as a weekly program. So there with a whole week dedicated to talking about loyalty, because that is a value did come up for people that did keep people attached to negative things in their lives. So we did have talk about loyalty thing, but I have never seen anybody put allegiance to a gang on the top by that to me just goes to show how far remove young people become from their true goals in values when they end up in gangs. So what, what was, how did you measure success for these programs? Was it by participation or engagement, or how do you had it? You measure the shift in the mindset, a new wanna say to that every all of our participants weren't necessarily in game, I would actually say, probably not can't attribute a number to it. But we, we had all kinds of success stories at weren't necessarily formally in any game. But. To enter a question we did a exit survey in every time we end every time we graduated a success stories class, we had exit survey in. We would take that feedback in as the leadership and use it to try to improve the program in to see, like if we're making a change in a non official way I could see the change being made simply from, you know, when we first started in two thousand fourteen by the time where they filmed the documentary in two thousand seventeen it was like night and day in terms of the way that we had, you know, people talking about HR in toxic masculinity was just way, different the amount of buying that we had was in comparible, when we first started, because we had to go in, like, basically convinced dude, one by one I, I had to go, get Charles onboard which are the process in of itself office. Charles is also very Christian then we had to like. Precipitated by facilitator, we had to get on board in it still like it's, it's a never ending, you know, like with any getting people to give up any power that the tributed by systems of domination. Like it's a never ending battle like within myself against my own patriarchy end with each other. Like, there's still things that come up with the success stories team that needs to be addressed to this day. But the fact that we had a solid team of facilitators that were facilitating this material bought into it is, what really made me feel like we were getting somewhere when I was able to leave there and know that the feminism of the program was not going to be watered down or completely erased. I knew that we had come a long way. Was there any particular taxed or activity that really resonated, you that you saw shifted? The participants say that was there any particular text or activity that they. Engaged in that really shifted them, palpably or visibly. Heck yeah. What we realized it wasn't text though it what the big shift happened for us. When we realized what was most effective was to model Boehner ability. In grow alongside our participants rather than teach them. 'cause we tried everything under the book for the patriarch unit of success stories. The patriot talking about page directly explicitly only takes up about a third of success curriculum. So that unit changed every time we did it. We did it different. I we started out by reading passages a bell hooks, discussing them, then we I like did like a mini like patriarchy workshops, the one that I originally, did you know, before even started success stories that, didn't that wasn't super successful. Then we started bringing in on these college students who were at a local university, who had a feminist student group there, and they lead, our, our, our feminist unit for, like I wanna say like two three seasons. We brought in outside help and, but it wasn't until after that we had one that went act like it, you know, it went good. But a lot of folks didn't feel that way, somebody on our. On our executive team's name is Chris Johnson. He said, bro. You gotta be up there like our participants can't relate with them there in college there, they, they don't have our lived experience. You have to be the one to deliver this material is Chris, I tried. That was nobody trying to hear me any said, that's because you were teaching everybody rather than talking about how you struggle with this, which then open other people up to the possibility that maybe they're struggling with it, as well, in that when we changed it to what folks see in the film, which is, we would put up three or four different speakers, to tell their personal stories personal struggles that they've had with patriarch in we hit different parts. So we had one person go up air. Talk about the objectification of women in how you would like day a lot of women or like try to have sex with a lot of women to like boost his own ego. Cool in front of his friends news. Women as a like accessory as a fashion item. Oh, point another person go up there in talking about his struggles with violent in how his brother was killed. He was locked up with dude who killed his brother in how he like grapple with the expectations placed upon him to kill Dan. David into find vengeance in how he decided not to do that. All kinds one person who was like muted his emotions by using drugs. His whole life in still struggles with being motioning vulnerable to this day. So we would put up these four speakers I, then I would go up and do the workshop on that scene in the film, which is very much rooted in our variance, rather than let me keep you a bunch of. Concepts in very academic way. I mean, we use the concepts, but we always would translate into everyday language and everyday experience. And then we break in small groups in talk about it. Once we switched over to that method the, the motto vulnerability in seek to relate connect rather Lindsay on he that's when everything changed, and that one really started finding success and people like transforming before very sincere release. You've established success stories, as a nonprofit organization partly with the support of your wife. How do you pronounce your name pain China? So what do you hope to achieve under this new entity? So think is important to say, though, I did do it with the support of tiny I do everything I do with the support of tiny home. We the, the primary players in stabbing. Success stories, as a nonprofit had actually been me, and Sean tall, and who Chantal is she, she volunteered successor is literally from the beginning as our community liaison. So she. Anything that had to had to do with the outside world went through Sean tala? She connected with resources with guest speakers. We're bringing in on those students from the college, they were she was ordination with them. So like Chantal was our really like the lifeblood of the program for completely for free for over five years, but she also in her day job was a associate director of a national organization, and then an executive director of a local organization in Washington DC. So she is now our executive director for success stories in has really been doing like the hard day to day work of, like turning this program into an organization, a nonprofit organization. In what that's looked like is I we applied for the grant, which Tena told us about where CCR the California prison have a grant where they say, if you had had a successful program in California prison before we will fund you to expand it into more prisons. So we applied in. We got it in. They funded us to go into three more prisons partially. They're not covering all that it will take to get into those three other prisons. So then we needed to start raising to get the rest, which means we had a filed for all the government stuff in order to be official non-profit in receive donations. So that's what we're working on and we begin in those three new prisons on June. First, we're moving into the Cook County jail in Chicago. Hopefully in July were in those talks now and we're in talks to move into prisons in South Carolina sometime in the fall. Wow, that's amazing. Congratulations. How are you able to have enough people to train as skilled facilitators to do this work, because obviously, you haven't you're not, you haven't physically been in any of these other facilities outside of California. So what, what does that kind of work look like so successor is model is is because of that moment that I talked about earlier with Chris Johnson? What we really do is it only works if the people who are leading the work are, are the people who are receiving work. Any kind of power, dynamic ruined it. So what we do is we train facilitators at the facilities to lead the work the same way we did in success stories, success stories at C Tf. So what our business model looks like is I train what we call coaches to go into the prisons, and then those coaches than train and supervise a team of Acilitator, who are incarcerated at those prisons to lead the work. That way, we don't have to do a whole bunch of hiring or being thousand places at once we have to coaches, one right now, one coach to coach is in California, who are handling our sites here. I'm going to train a coach in Chicago who will lead the work. They're trained so tater there, the county jail, and they'll do that work there on training coach Dr allina in that way, it really is. It doesn't have to be a huge team on the outside. The big team is happening on the inside. That's whose leadership were really investing in is training, those Acilitator on the inside to do this work. Facilitators ones who are on the inside. Have you gotten a sense as to whether there's a demand for people to wanna step up in take on those roles? Are they getting anything out of it as the getting points or? Are they getting compensated? Is that something that's even possible? It's in California. We can't pay them legally while you're in prison in California. You're not allowed to be paid or engage in any business practices. But what in the way it works in California is you earn time off of your sentence, given that you have released eight. You are in time off your sentence for every hour, you spend in a self help group and for being facilitators, they basically have guaranteed slot in self help for the long term. So by being are filters. They are they're owning time. All I see. And what are you is there, some process in place to measure, recidivism beyond the near term so that you can actually go back in hopefully expand this to more states across the country? We're looking at ways to develop. Surveying practices so that we can have. Official scientifically recognized evidence that success stories is beneficial and is lowering recidivism. But also just as somebody who was in prison. I understand that one program in and of itself to say that, like I went to this program in there for my life change now. Never go back present, I think is short-sighted way of measuring effectiveness, it's really the culture of the entire like the culture in the context created in the facility by there being a lot of programs can successfully is only happens once a week for two hours week a lot can happen there, but you're not going to change your whole life. You know two hours a week once a week for twelve weeks. But when you have facilities that are filled with tons of programs in the culture of the facilities we go to programs here, we work on ourselves as we do we wanna go home. We wanna be better people. That's how you really get laughing chain. So success stories. The way I see it is, we are just adding that vital conversation that I feel like all many have that. I'll people need to have this men in particular of around challenging patriarchy on, but we're just one conversation that needs to be had. And that's why there needs to be a plethora programs at all of these societies that are having all the other necessary. I'm r- stations, but we feel like we're best positioned to have this one. Do you think that your curricula could be used in other spaces and other educational spaces to engage in preventive work? Yeah. We, we've began talked. I mean, because the documentary came out, we've got a lot of visibility. So we have people contacting us from all kinds of spaces that wanna bring us into their space on high schools, juvenile halls. Yeah. Middle schools all kinds of spaces in. We're in talks of bringing success stories to those faces to multi gendered spaces on. That, that is in our future right now. We're like focusing on what we have to be the most developed, which is how to have these conversations in men's prisons, but we are also developing curriculum for multi gendered spaces. Which is gonna be, you know, we're, we're, we're bringing in outside help, we need multi gender leadership that in order to, to do that as well. So that is down the road. I'm glad to hear that because I think there's a great opportunity and a great need for us to be having these conversations around power and privilege. As soon as basically children have the capacity to have these conversations as negotiate those power dynamics, even in the playground, who. So you referenced your wife as being someone who has been a pivotal support in your journey. Can you talk about the role that Yuna has played in your own transformation? Yeah. I mean has. Been everything Tena is my ultimate accountability partner. She's not the type of person to, like, hold her town, when she, you know, uncomfortable that on thin Tena has held me accountable in very upfront clear transparent unapologetic ways from the moment that I met her almost eight years ago, so paint a really challenging to be my highest self throughout our entire relationship together. But specifically once I wasn't car serrated, and she also was one of my, my primary supporters was sending me the literature before we were able to get Sean Paul Tena was helping us develop the curriculum in ending literature for that she because of the organization her, and I started together, which is a policy organization called initiate just is she? She had years of experience doing nonprofit work in this space before I got out. So she's been really a leader that I can follow. Learn from, as now I'm developing success stories as an organization. She's just been key at at every turn. She is added value tentative element of, of success stories into myself person, will you N one interview you said, quote, I always knew I would go to jail, unquote. So looking back is there anything you think that could have resonated with you to prevent you from having that thought and belief head? You've been exposed earlier to these concepts to interrogating, the tools to interrogate patriarchy. Do you think that would have made a difference? You know, if I'm being all the way honest, I think that just begin for myself. No, because I wasn't traduced to those tools when I was fourteen years old, and I still went back into full-fledged street. Lie at sixteen years old because we don't have a context, we don't have a culture that supports men who are trying to challenge HR, so you can learn about it, and be clear in it. But if there's not a whole, there's not a place for myself, there is no place for me to be like that. And still feel a part. I didn't want to stand out in count counter cultural way, at that level at that age, you know, as a teenager I wanted to fit in wanted to be one up, and there wasn't a place for me to fit in and be one of challenging the dominant culture, which was telling me to be violent and emotionally and objectified. So I, I mean I was introduced these. Concepts. And I was very young, but there is nowhere for me to go with them that was prominent enough for me to feel comfortable there. There is like the my friends in the movement in organizing community of Los Angeles. But ultimately, that whole timeouts organizing are still worried about what my friends that were again, community of Angeles. What were they thinking of me because that? Way of being male has more invested in this culture. Does that make sense? Yeah. We all as a culture need to do the hard work of challenging patriarchy so that there is a space for people to go besides patriarchy. I think it's deeper than just like raising a feminist. Boy. That's a minister boy's gonna step outside in the whole world. In tell him he's wrong in what can we really put in him to go against the whole world ball? If everyone does it if we always feminist children? And then we all have the tools to engage in developing are true and best selves. Exactly. Exactly. And that, that, that I agree with you. A hundred percent. Before interview I had shared with you, some of the ways in which alternatives to incarceration, and some of the policies in criminal Justice, reform efforts have crept into the domestic violence arena, which is very close to my heart. And one of these is the ways in which, for example, restorative Justice is being used and domestic violence in your in your initiate, Justice website. There's a lot of information on the work that you did on proposition fifty seven and. And then finally, there's an example that I was just. Just became aware of recently around how bail reform and the bail project, you know, indirectly led to the release of someone who was a domestic violence offender, but cues of misdemeanor assault charge who then was released and when onto fatally assault is domestic partner. So these are all examples of the potential consequences of not taking a nuanced approach towards criminal, Justice reform and its impact specifically on domestic violence victims. And I just prior to our conversation. Someone sent me an article about domestic violence mic Dems, thing facing higher risk of being attacked following Cook County reform. So it was interest. That you're going to be going into Cook County as well. Definitely, send you the article. So I think for those of us who are working in the space of advocating to end violence against women. We know that there is very little enforcement convictions or enforcement of the existing domestic violence laws to begin with. So I just wanted to get your sense of what your thoughts are with regard to how we might be able to ensure that the reforms that we both support are actually going to be taking into account, the safety of survivors and still enforce accountability. Yeah, I think I appreciate the, the nuance of this conversation. There is, I think is important to say that our, our current criminal legal system, does is not well, designed to keep survivors safe or to deal with. Domestic abuse as a thing because it is all about. Determining guilt in seeking revenge based on a specific one time incident. Right. So our whole court system is about something happened. Let's prove you're innocent or guilty to what extent you're guilty. And then therefore based on what extent you're guilty that that will determine how long we can legally emotionally torture, you, that is a patriarchal system in another self full idea of revenge as power or vengeance is power or domination as power as patriarchal idea. The idea from which criminal legal system was born in there for its inherently patriarchal in is terrible at serving survivors of domestic abuse, which, you know, much better than I is not something that just happens. One time that we can. It's not a one-off incident that we can determine guilt for in therefore seek revenge on somebody, and it's gonna magically make them no longer be that way with that being said, I feel like because. These larger these larger institutions cities, state, governments in, in the like are finally starting to understand that are criminal legal system is, is ineffective and abusive, they are now I think people want he's will often say, well, we don't have prison than what else what should we do? And a quick and easy answer that a lot of people say without even really knowing what they're talking about. Sometimes is they say, we need restorative Justice. One of the articles. That, that you sent me had had said something to the effect of people like the term restorative Justice because it has to terms that they like by themselves rent restore people like restoration, Justice Justice. So people say, we need restorative Justice, but a lot of people don't know what restorative Justice actually is actually a very specific practice that usually involves some kind of conversation between somebody who's done harm somebody who's received at harm. And with the hopes of like Reconsiliation in healing that conversation can't happen with if the person who's doing harm is still doing the hormone tends to still do the harm. So restorative Justice fall short of being able in that very specific way, fall short of being able to solve a domestic violence problems with that being said. So does the criminal, the criminal Justice system as it currently stands, right? Some I don't neither of those things are solution that out advocate for for how to deal with domestic violence. One of the policy. Changes that have taken place in some parts of the world to address the inadequacies of the criminal Justice system. And how it defines domestic violence or intimate. Partner violence is the criminalization of coercive control. So that's happened in Europe in England and Scotland and there are efforts within this country to also make that happen. And the idea would be that the whole context of the relationship, if someone is brought into the criminal Justice system, because of one act, and let's say, it's the survivor who engaged in self defense, the whole context of that person's history with that Casey abuser, but the person that she has harmed according to the criminal Justice system would be taken into account, and the power dynamics would be taken into account, and as Evan stark said, who who's written a book about this. The whole constellation of hot. Harm would be taken into account, and therefore, there would be in theory, a greater likelihood that Justice can be served in that the right person who has done harm can be held to account. What are your thoughts about that from analyzing course of control? I understand I haven't read the book by Evan starkman. Fortunately, so I can only answer with what I do know I'd certainly agree that within the current system. There lacks that contextualising of individual acts of violence. Right. So if somebody is being. Choose and threatened with incarceration for for defending themselves against an abuser. It's very important that the entire context of that relationship is brought up in that person that survivor is not further victimized. Now by the state for defending themselves with that being said, I don't support the criminalization of anything. I don't think that criminalization is a solutions based way of dealing with harm. So you're a purchase basically through prevention education by changing the culture. I think that I would say that, that is true, but that doesn't do anything or, or that does little for the person whose life is threatened right now. Like, as we speak in this moment. Right. So, because the criminal legal system as it currently exists, retributive Justice in then restorative Justice, like sitting down in these kind of healing kinds of. Conversations earn our only options. I think it's important for us to look at the full plethora of option on, on the one that I makes the most for me that I actually feel like would be the most helpful in this case. It is true that. I believe sometimes people are so committed to being harmful that they're not going to stop in the near future. And therefore for the safety of others, they need to be removed or put in, in such a position that it cannot continue to harm people. That is very different from the system that we have today, the purpose of our assistant today is revenge. I mean it you know, under the euphemism of punishment but it's revenge. You did something wrong. I proved do did something wrong. Now I'm going to hurt you. Whether it be financially emotionally, psychologically, sometimes physically, sometimes sexually that is how our current system works with the purpose being revenge. That's what that's what differentiates it from what I'm talking about. Now, if we divested from the revenge base system, then we would have so much more resource to deal with the people who actually need to be separated. In my seven years in prison. I've met. Thousand tens of thousands of people out of all those people, I, I could probably think of eight that I felt unsafe around that I felt like this person is committed to being this way in. It's not circumstantial, it's not something that they're going to change anytime soon. And it was often because of mental health reasons, but it's not only that, it's the addiction to power control. The connections that has to do with people's early trauma, like sense of south worth any to get myself worth controlling this other person cultural context patriarchy it so many things that lead people to being that way. Specifically people were talking about right now, abusers in PV, and we would have more resources to really. Address those issues that oaks have in a safe setting. And in a setting that, that removes them from having the ability to continue harm or coerce control over on their survivors. If we did not spend billions of dollars a year using prison as a catch all in revenge system for every time somebody breaks law. So can you just may be elaborate on what you mean by separating them, and what kind of interventions you'd ideally want to offer them? Yeah. Again, like with, with the context of not having a system that's based on revenge. If we had a system out, literally, the only goal is to stop harm into prevent harm in the future, we could when necessary remove somebody even by force if necessary from the community bring them to a place that is then there for no other purpose but to. To support their transformation to what extent they're willing and if they have no interest in transformation than they would stay in that place until they did. Because the unfortunate truth is that if the negative thing, the negative things that we're doing in our lives are working for us where less likely to change them. So it usually does take some discomfort for people to wanna change. So, yeah, there will be I do believe I'm as somebody who is a prison abolitionist. I still believe that some people need to be removed from or have their access to other people ceased in order for them to truly transform the difference between what I'm describing in prison is the goal of what I'm saying is transformation rather than it being retribution in the legislature, or judge coming up with some arbitrary number of you. Did this. You get eight years or you to this. Get ten years you this twenty. It's not about that. It's you are the course of control that you were wielding over people in our community is harmful. It's lethal. We can't allow you to do it. If you're not going to stop on your own. We need to bring you to a place where you can work on wire acting that way. While these folks these providers can still be safe. How do you feel when survivors don't acknowledge or recognize the potential risks that they're in when they're still in relationships or still exposed to their partners and voluntarily want to keep these individuals that you may want to put aside in society? They if they want them to still remain in the community. This is hard, right? Do we then intervene? I think let me back up a little bit something that, that three prison abolitionists that I look up to very much at all. Talk about Angela Davis. Patrice cowling Charlene Carruthers all about eliminating prison. It's not just about getting rid of prisons about building healthy communities, or accountable each other. So I just wanna say that everything I'm saying is within that context. We can't do one without the other. So now it's more directly. Answer your question, if we have communities that are directly accountable to another, we as a community might need to step in, and remove a person for the, the safety of someone in our community. What that looks like right now, present time is usually just months family. You know, the way that, that we've kind of been colonized with western culture is we don't see community legitimate bigger than the nuclear family or you know, ended family, but we're it's, it's not unheard of for families to step in and be like we're. We're here to get you. I mean this just recently happened with a loved one of mine. She was in a beautiful relationship. She was being abused in coarsely controlled by man and her mom went and got her, her mom, flew across the country, went to her doorstep and said, get in the car where leaving and that is something that communities do for each other all the time in, I think that that's what we're going as we build stronger communities. It didn't just have to be her mom, maybe in, in, in the world, describing, her mom, wouldn't have had to fly fly across the country because her neighbor would have been close enough to hurt a something was going on into go next orange day where Levy or all of her neighbors could have shown up intervene between her in the man and said, dude, you're leaving, you're not welcome here anymore like we could set up new systems that look you know, in some ways, they look nothing like what we have now but in some ways, they look like exactly what we have now just as carrying about it enough to intervene. Gene, in, in stern ways, we're gonna have to need training from from Hugh Richie about how, how to, to help people, learn how to be up standards because there's too many people who don't act out of fear part partly, I don't that's very not there, there, there are organsations that are giving that kind of training project. Nia in New York is doing great work around this civically around IBM violence. Well, they just had a national conference in New York City where they brought in restorative Justice and transformative Justice practitioners in organizations from all over the country to have conversations. Success stories was represented there by our Los Angeles coach, Ronnie. There's, there's a lot of good work that are, you know, we're uncovering new ways of Justice every day. But we should really look to those. Organizations. You know, not just success stories project NIA, but all the organizations all over the country, look to them for leadership on how to show up for one, another in how're communities can hold each other accountable, rather than relying on the state apparatus, which honestly has other motive motivators like money in vote while, that's a great segue into our engendered questionnaire. A set of questions that I ask each of our guests that I've adapted from James Lipton's inside the actress studio. The first question is, what is at stake in the struggle to end gender-based violence and oppression. What is at stake in the struggle to end gender based violence in oppression is literally cannot overstate this in not being hyperbolic, it is literally, the future of the success of human being. To say that gender-based problem gender race violence is only the problem of women is to ignore the facts that show that the more fair society is the more flourishes that. The more oppressed women on a society is the, the more that, that a society struggles we are destroying not only women in GNC folks transports, but we are literally destroying the hearts and spirits of every person on the planet by being obsessed with male dominance in control rather than mutual collaboration. What gives you hope? What gives me hope is I really feel like we're winning. I really do. I did a workshop with my friend marine. She is in amazing. Facilitator she brought me into Toco facilitate a workshop that she was doing about them in his ally, ship at a fraternity house. The university of southern California USC. Right here in south central LA. And I went in there, expecting it to be very combative. And it wasn't these eighteen nineteen twenty year old young men were showing up problematic at times, whatever they were raised in this culture two but they were down. They were they were there. They were open. They were the most feminist group of young men I've ever met an I was very I felt very hopeful that day they culture is changing, in finally, what can we do more of less of start or stop to end, gender-based violence? I think that the first thing that we need to do to stop gender-based violence is detach. Ourselves from this obsession with the idea that domination is power. We can't watch sports that say domination is power watch movies. That say domination is power listening to music. That's domination is power. Teach men nomination is power. And then when they exercise domination to achieve that power saying hold on. You're you're doing it wrong. Now now you gotta go to jail now. You're a bad person. Our entire culture is obsessed with male violence obsessed with the idea. The domination is our from our criminal Justice system, all the way to the way that we teach little kids how to play with one another in preschool, when we interrupt this narrative that domination is power and replace it with a narrative that collaboration is power, we will end gender violence in, I believe all violence. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I really applaud the work you're doing and I look forward to hearing more about your future. Success stories, and hopefully also collaborating with you. Thank you so much. It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on here and having these important conversation. Thanks for listening to this episode of engendered the show is sponsored by CANDU QNA appear base knowledge platform that connects social service providers in advice community learning you can join can do it. QNA for free at Q N, A dot K. A N D, IT dot com. I'd love to get your feedback in here any questions or suggestions. You may have for the show. Please Email us at engendered podcast. A g mail dot com with your questions.

California Los Angeles official Charles Mark Anthony CNN Anthony Johnson Patrisse Cullo California Department of corre middle school Cook County Patrice Dan partner Chris Johnson Charles berry Richie Richard Edmund Vargas
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"Production can't argue with that bottom line. The government should stay the hell out of your life. You can find the liberty theorists by go into medium dot com slash at the at sign liberty theorist. Also find on facebook at facebook dot com slash the liberty theorist, check it out today. Welcome to fill any Friday a presentation of the Lions of Liberty podcast here is your host John Odor Matt. Felons, friends and freedom lovers. Welcome back to another edition of. Felony Friday a weekly show right here on the Lions of Liberty podcast here at lines of liberty we have a bit of a variety channel. My Friday show felony. Friday is one of the great shows, but there's two more on Monday and Wednesday. Monday show hosted by Mark Clare Wednesday by Brian McWilliams say both bring their own flavor and flair to the podcast game. Check those out subscribe to lines of liberty on your podcasting apt to get all three and today's episode phony Friday is another great one. Have an awesome guest lineup who is going to share another story Of Injustice in the criminal justice system and we're going to shine a light and we are going to keep the momentum going keep the momentum going for change in the criminal justice system. So share this show, tell a friend, text it to a friend tell stranger on the street I don't care enjoy today show. All right. My Guest Today on felony Friday is quantity of Bosco. Adams, quarte spent twenty eight of his first forty, five years of life confined and cells and Juvenile County state, and federal detention facilities. However he's rewriting his story now and He's also looking to through his story to inspire change and hope back in May of two, thousand six he was facing independent conviction. And, he actually escaped from a maximum security detention facility and he was not captured not long after that the escape caught the attention of people worldwide and really gained a following from that fast forward more recently January twenty twenty quantity discovered a loophole a loophole in the law. That would help him to change his own story ended up firing his court appointed attorney fought for zone freedom, and he was granted his immediate release. In July of this year July twenty fourth he is the author of chasing freedom which was optioned for a feature film which I believe already began production. We'll talk about that quarte welcome to felony. Friday. I'm. Glad to be here. Be here. Glad to have you here men and. Fascinating Guy. You've led of I mean there's a lot to talk about that. You've gone through in your life and. You're reading through your biography in where you began Obviously the the thing that's capture a lot attention is, is your escape from from prison and then I mean just recently. Fighting. For Your own freedom and getting released from prison in July of this year. Just amazing story. So before we get into all of that what elected with my guess is really. kind of set the table and let people know where things began. Saying, get a sense. Sense for you as a person. So if you could just share kind of starting out. In. Your your childhood, what did your childhood looked like in your early years? I was born in Compton California. My family in environment was at that time was the seventy. So you know is right at the Began in. The game coacher. Most my family. Father. In everybody they were crips. From Compton and So much childhood was little different. A lot different than most other children I wasn't raised. To Be a child. So to speak I, Kinda grew up fast and. Tant like A. Wise soling did things that most people? At. You know as a child didn't do like for instance I I started selling drugs when I was about ten years old and in light of that was pretty much due to my circumstances environments in diseases I made because. My Essay I was surrounded by it was like. That's all I. saw. That's all I knew. So it was like It was normal. I honestly didn't see anything else. So. You can kinda say that I was trying to like educated. In Talk To. You know step outside the bounds of the law at a young age. So you know so so was that. You know Kinda just a natural step. In a lot of I guess were normal situations hate to use that word but you know people would look at going out. Getting a job that was just just your next step. That was. That was. That was pretty much normal for for Meyer environment in his like. I mean I. I kinda look back and say like honestly that. Neighborhood that I grew up in I rarely. Saw People get up in the morning and go to work So. As a child I was always curious in. But one thing is I. I never liked to ask questions. So I used to try to you know come up with conclusions. Answers to all of the thought says running through my head on my own. And You know. So at a young age to me when I started seeing. The things that were taking place in my community. You know the crime, the drug daily the lack of employment. I started to believe that that right there was what? been a black child in America was supposed to be that was the only picture. That I add of. A black person. I. Didn't have any role models. Most kids have. People who they look up to that are productive as role models I I never had any of that I never seen any of that so. What they're saying, my child was kind of like distorted. A lot more than most other children. Growing up at their time in in a lot of was based on things that I was exposed to like bike again like I say my my family Chris, my father was one of the reasons council trips. Those the man who I saw those were the people who I looked up to. So Started at a young as they were the ones who pretty much. Gave me my identity of what who am supposed to be as a man and as a person who is so. Pretty much dance your question, my childhood was. It was different. It was a lot different than. Most other children in in it was definitely not what a child who? is supposed to be like. SA- taken from. The biography of sent me here. So age attend, you start selling drugs. Certain started driving race are driving at age eleven. What was that like? Asked me I. bought my first car before he knew how to drive. And How did that happen? I said I started selling drugs around that time so. I was out there in the projects in parking lot. In May several hundred dollars a day just selling drugs. I have so much money in. You know I've seen everybody else had cars and all that. So I wanted me a car so. I had a cousin in watch. Who actually had a car for sale so Man. My sister called the bus over there. I bought the car. She drove home for me I? And I never met my mother. In note because at the time my father had been out of my life whatever. So. I'll pretty much grew up in just with my mother and my two sisters. In so We drove the car back to the apartments we lived in it pocket in the back. I never told my mother to actually have the car at the time search this every day. I will go out back and I would just start the car up. He knows you start playing around with IT A. I taught myself how to drive. Next thing you know driving around with block in I'm getting on the freeway and. From. That point on I was just. In by that time, it had came out so she. Knew that I had a car I was driving it. So from that Karcher. started by more cars and. customizing them. I was I was a lot lot lot more advanced. Get. Pulled over when you were that young. I got off a lot of times. Sometimes I actually went to jail. They checked me out to the police station call my mother to come give me told the car sometimes they take the keys from me. Well So you're driving at the age of eleven dropped out of school at Thirteen. and. Then I mean, you said, you said you got arrested a couple of times for for driving the car. What was your first drug arrest? My first drug arrests was when I was thirteen. I was standing out in the parking lot in the projects, Selah Right crack. Has Crack Rock Saami police swooped up through the rocks. He saw me when found him. Took me to jail. Mother came and got me out of jail. Had to go back and forth to Corden. He eventually stained glass alone more than a year through the court process in. Our. Center. Juvenile can't. But that came after I committed another crime. So a kind of grouped together. Saint meter to juvenile like ucare. How much time did you spend their six months? Six months and you came back did you I mean did you go back to that juvenile camper? Just six months? Not I? I did. Shakes What happened was? I was Another drug arrests and I got caught up in this. Undercover stain. Where police undercover cops dressed up like gang members came to purchase. Drugs from me in. It happened to result in a shootout. With the COPS. So I was arrested for that. In somebody else who was actually with me at the time. Was, who actually was? was seriously engaged in shootout he was arrested. I went to trial. So back in pretty much got found not guilty because. They identity issues at the time they actually arrested somebody I actually got away. Iran from the scene got away. A guy who was with me was arrested in the arrested another guy on the scene also. In The cops identified the other guy who happened to look just like me 'cause we all used to dress alike back then. and. Two cops identify Cham- has. As me so later on when they actually. Caught me. They found out that that guy wasn't person and then later on last week or two later when they caught me I went to trial. my lawyer. You brought that up that. You know they identify several other people so Pretty much I kinda weasel out of that. was sentenced for drugs that I had got caught with. A year prior that I told you about earlier. Low boot camps for six months. I. Think. I got out of boot. camp. For about three months. After that I went back to the California Youth Authority in which I was sentenced to life sentence in the California youth. Authority for a robbery. When I was in the California Youth Authority you were sentenced to a life sentence would yeah at the time the way to court process words in California was. Anybody. On the Age Sixteen You automatically you're in juvenile court. You can't be back in. You can be tried as an adult unless you were actually sixteen you had to go through a process. At the time I was actually fourteen when I committed a crime so I remained in juvenile court in. Juvenile. Court, found me guilty. A judge trial found guilty in a sentence me to life in the California Youth Authority and ask the time a life sentence in California USA story. Wasn't to you turn twenty five. Still wants you turn twenty, five did. You pretty much. Your custody in the youth is pretty much completing terminated. So At that time, I was sent to California Youth Authority for life sentence. The thing. Every year you go before the Parole Board. and. They have the option of let you go before your twenty fifth. Birthday. So I mean this. Is, trade, like my entire youth childhood was pretty much. Wasted behind bars because. You know all my criminal activity. In. Larger what was your mindset back than towards towards everything that was happening mean spending all this time being detained. Selling drugs I mean what? What was your attitude like? You know once you out what were you looking forward to? When I get out which time would. You release that release the Agent Nineteen Okay now see. That's a whole nother story. There is because. Actually when I was seventeen and I was in the California Youth Authority. a friend of mine and I. WE actually assauted Some guards at the jail we assorted garden jail. In California Youth Authority. In Allama. Council. Happened to. Be. She she got you know Kinda got. beat up bad. But you know she got hit. In so we place the solitary confinement because you understand like stand. My life was just I was wild as a juvenile is completely wild. I didn't I didn't have any type of. Conscious. About anything that I was doing, I was following the footsteps of. The people who looked up to in some of these guys like they were just like monsters you know it. And I want it to be just like them in on s that's what I thought was. The enemy of Van in man you know to be an active gang member know. Drug. dilling doing those type of things because dad is literally I swear that is all I saw. I didn't see anything else. I. Didn't know anything to. Read write or none of that I saw what was going on in the projects in Compton in the hood in. That was our lifestyle so I didn't know anything else. So. But when this assault happening the California Youth Authority. In I was placed in solitary confinement. That, was the first time in my life where. I was able to do some introspection hours able to think I. was able to look at myself. You See. It like Ashville the same I felt the same of the fact that you know that a woman had actually got hit. You know doing this because I come from you know mother two sisters I grew up around Lyndon female and so even as against it. There was one thing that was never tolerated in that. That was never acceptable in that. You know you would actually put your hands on a woman. In so. When I was in solitaire confinement at that time. My conscious eight. It was. Every day it's like I'm fighting an argument with the guards this there. She'll tear gas A. Mysel- Every day they stripped me naked every day. I'M KICKIN ON DOORS I'm screaming at him they spit in my food they could pepper spray my full Assad was just like this little angry. Frustrated. Kids at seventeen years old. And at the same time, my conscious is eating away at me because of the fact that. I don't agree with what's happened. And assault staff assault that I was involved in. You know we actually intended to. This mail guard with this female guard was actually present to an she got assaulted two and so that right is it's like if fucked me up. So. I'm battling I'm battling with the guards in battling with my conscience about the fact of what? We just. You know. And so is like. Eight me up so much to where I. was like this little angry old kid. One day I looked in the mirror. And I just I just looked like shit. And I told Myself Manai something just clicked in my head and like look man. You are some. It has I tell myself. So, you continue to be some shit or you're gonNa try to do something to become better. and. So from that day on. Is like. Is Crazy. This is I can't really smile but I just clicked this is like I did just like. My attitude in perception kind of shifted. At that moment because me up so much that the only way I feel. A little bit of peace with myself was to acknowledge that look man I some shit in. Thing that I've been doing. Things that a man shouldn't be dawn or anybody was some types of substance Senate be doing. Here so I get a lot of introspection lot. tonette day on this. Shit up in. Paint. Lay back. In China like question. You know where I was gonna live stream the things that I've been through. From net I just started. From. The guard he starts to see the change because no longer I no longer. Sit at the door screaming kick on it in argue with Shoot gas into my sale and stuff it got to the point hours just sit there and just take you know because I was at the point now like I'm not getting anywhere fighting. You know in that I needed to come up with the way to where. I can't be in control of my. Own Emotions with that led to the guards. Being control because I found that I was pretty much being puppet. State came. Shots. Pepper spray myself now I'm just this. IRA. Erratic Person Adding agreed with us so. You know I got a little more self convulsion started. Did a little more conscious of the things that I were doing took a little more control over myself in they recognize that in. So they surprisingly they backed up WanNa say that they were doing and all of a sudden I started getting books and this was the first time that I ever really had a book. So I'm seventeen years old I. Don't know how to read. Really you know. So. I. Get a dictionary and I get a novel in it happened to be like Jackie Collins novel research back there, but I started read neck. When I was reading that I was able to see that there was another world out there other than the world in life that I. Have thought only existed for me and I started reading the books started learning about. Black coacher history realized that you know. Me As a young black men that there was something to be more of value to. Who I was, what I had been taught misled to believe it. From their own I, just started devour books. started changing my attitude and perception on license are pretty much made like a hundred and eighty degree turn right so. What happened after that? was I ended up going to court for the salt plag- guilty took three years. In California Department of Corrections. So they took me out of the California Youth Authority place to the California Department of Corrections now seven cinemas. Oh But. I'm here with grow old violent. Now Right So one side Kathy I pretty much continued because fortunately. I. was. Surrounded with older guys who were pretty much season and I understood that you know education was more important than anything. So I developed that little structure there. I think I did like twenty four months. In level four yard CAL cal. California Department of Corrections. I was. Released, out to society at age nineteen. But. Now the thing is that. So when I was releasing society, I was a totally different man. The guy that I was before I was no longer that person even the people my neighborhood lifted me different from wearing all black to where light-colored. We're from being like looking like a gang member to now looking like a square. You know and I started going to this off. Of. Vocational school where I was learning electron can computer technology I was doing good. I was also like five months. In one day my parole officer called me and said that I needed to come in. When I went there I went into his office. Sits officers from the California Youth Authority came out of the bat trust me up and took me back should account from. What because I had life in California Youth Authority. So what was supposed to happen is that once I finished the three years centers California Department of Corrections. I was supposed to return back to the California Youth Authority to finish my life sentence. Kind of sense does that make that's insane it don't. So at that point. Is like. I. Just. I like kind of snapped again at that point I said, fuck the law at that point I said I started. For some reason, I started to believe that I, thought it was unfair. Actually doing good I was not committing any crimes or anything. I was scared to hold a gun. At times I was completely one hundred, eighty degree different than I was at fourteen. And I had like visit I thought like, okay if I stick with this. trae schooling get this computer electronic technology stuff on my belt. In his school was actually torrance in a suburb. So as at that time, I'm starting to see more diversity and I'm starting to see other things and I started believing eight look I might be able to. Make something out it is you know where I can get a good job and actually. Live a life outside of what I've known for the past eighteen years. and. So when eight locked me back up, right they're kind of like devastated me in so. I started to tell myself that man, the only way that I was going to make it. In. America was get money. So I told myself man when I get out dope is. I can't. option to shell is must dope is I can get my hands on you know because I had made a vow that I would never commit another try. That I would never do another actor violence. Unless it was in self defense. So I couldn't go out and rob or steal anything like that because when I was in solitary confinement. For Salt at prison guard. Are Pretty. Much. Told myself that you know from that day on the only way that I to be able to redeem myself is by treating people the way that I wanted to treat. And that means that okay. Anything I. Do you know? I'm not. Going to cause no harm. Somebody. Be Coast. To satisfy my own lambs are these is so you know I, pretty much. Live live by rule that you know do unto others as you want to do to you and so. I told myself. There's nothing wrong with selling drugs. fares change you know in the so While I was in the California. Youth Authority that second time. I kept going before the parole board because they kept giving me different little. Assignments, they want me to complete this program. Do this program is surprisingly to them I was knocking them out because now you got to realize I'm not. They're saying kid I was at fourteen or fifteen no longer violent. Educated now. I've been reading books I've done my ged. So now a little more sharper in bay. See this. The Parole Board they saw that is so as I continue to knockout these different programs. And with the support of my youth counselor who also seen the change in me. They kept sending me back to the parole board like three months. Normally you go every year, but I was going every three months because I was doing so much. And surprised me like a year after that. The parole war say you know what? He's made a lot of improvement so they let me out. But still in the back of my head, I'm telling myself. Only way you're going to be somebody in America is to get money because I kept telling myself. That had I been rich at the time. That the California Dorothy snacks me backed up if I had money in the lawyer, I probably wouldn't those. GOING THROUGH THAT That's what I kept telling myself which might have been true at the time but maybe maybe maybe not. But yeah, that's that's the shows. Yeah. Just shows how broken the system is at that point in time they didn't care that you that you change. They didn't. They didn't even look at the you know you performed yourself they didn't care about that. So a slight. In other words, it defeated me. That little incident right there can look back on it today. said it actually defeated me it. Took because they. I was I was a child who grew up with little hope of actually. Doing. Something productive because I had seen it and so when I had that little glimpse of hope in vision of doing something productive. It was crushed is so data day. I I told myself like never game and I. Don't ever try to live with on that side of the law because it doesn't work for Black Irs. These are the things that I was telling myself which you know today. I don't have the same attitude but back then as nineteen year old kid in things that I've been through, you know. Without, any other experiences or any guidance mets ship? You know I pretty much salt answers from my own questions. In data from. From opposite from observing my virement and that's what I told myself. So take us forward to at the age of twenty. Eight? When? When you get arrested. In this is. I guess you hadn't been out for for that long. Maybe have that wrong but aged twenty eight to get arrested sentenced to thirty five years in federal prison. For what what was what was the crime? Then? What was the charge? WAS A. Possession of marijuana which. Happened, was. A. Federal agents. Loaded I was just marijuana for some guys down in Texas in the guy said actually got hired some undercover federal agents. Transport the marijuana to. Saint Louis where I was at at the time. Baited know they were on the curb as they actually thought they were truck drivers. and. So when I went to go pick up the agents actually took the. Marijuana and put it in the back of you hall fan and so when I went to go pick it up. In Guidance van started the band with a star so they arrested me. And I was charged with possession of marijuana. In the. I was actually found guilty of it. Ended up to thirty five years that was because of your priors yet because of the priors priors played a big role of thirty five years. So, you have this. You have the sense you're convicted of. Take us through this escape that you successfully escaped from a maximum security detention facility. That was monitored by by camera re monitored by camera right twenty, four seven. It. When I was arrested, I was arrested. Two weeks after the conception. Sixteen years old now. So I found out at the time arrests that I had a child. Coming into this, world Is. So I was devastated because. I'm also facing a life sentence. Said only thing I could think about is that history is finished repeat itself societal continues. I grow without my father. Now, my daughter, my child to be born into this world without a father. Repeat the cycle. and. So at that point is just like. I told myself that I was a loser I started Schiller like loser tell myself look if if I'm in here in this child is born in I'm not able to be a father in be there for. I'm the worst person in the world. In. My, pride. I didn't want to be the worst person in the world I don't think active lived within the worst person in the world. You know. It. So one day. I. Will Sit into sale looking out the window. I said, said, I got a breakout. Try To. Flee the country. Get. My child taker Whitney. Somewhere we're ocoee just live. Be Father's eighteen. Years. Then after that. Who Cares what happens? So. I try to escape I, actually cut the bars out of a window in the sale. Somebody told on me so they sent me to a how did you? How did you cut the bars? I got hacksaw Blades Mugabe. Smuggled a hacksaw blades. had. A smaller size. A confidential. Attorney? Documents had conceal real thin andy field inside the papers. Cut The bar and that just cut how long did that Take the cut through bars I would think that would take quite a while. Yeah. It does because you got taken annoys factor. You WanNa be as quiet as you can't be. You don't want other prisoners seeing. Dan You don't have a handle on these things just really worse than what life's a little piece of. Of. Saul Blade you know you don't have a good grip with so. I. Think it took me like. Law over week ten days. Do it kept bar low over weeks? Something like that? I was caught placed in solitary confinement. When I was in solitary confinement. I managed to get another solve blame smuggling. Cut a hole. In the ceiling. Got Up to the ceiling founder crawlspace founded exhaust. Kicked it out. Steph my head out there. was some cops down their smoking cigarettes looked open got caught right? They took me out of that sale. Transfer me to maximum security. Detention facility which happened to be off jail. Place. In Sale. Where I was locked. Twenty four hours a day. There was a camera in there watching me. Twenty four hours a day. I couldn't come to sail for anything I think three times a week day will come escort me to shower. Let me shower for five minutes and take me back and put me in jail. And I managed to get it tracks played in there. And I. It took me a while did little. Trickery deceive the cameras and had other prisoners do so. 'cause distractions and. On and often I would. May like a little dummy like I was laying in the bed and I would be the corner. Behind the. Cameras Song and working. Getting me like little over a month? Month and a half or something like that. I ended up getting a hold inside the ceiling. Once up into sailing. I was able to choose through a little barrier. They got up inside the attic of the jail where the ventilation system was. Made a rope out of my blankets. made a retraction via so that the rope pull back into present as I sped away. Actually. Got Away. So how how long were you a fugitive for I was on? Tuesday. That for day Than last last long. Hey, just want to take a real quick minute here to talk about another Libertarian podcast. If you haven't listened to good morning liberty, it's a five day per week show Natan Charlie I don't know how they do it. Five days were pumping out fantastic content also their twitter game I have to say, but following them on twitter is on point at good A. M. Liberty check it out I. Don't know if it's native Charlie running the account, but whichever one is doing a fantastic job. Also their show. So what is their show? They are trying to really take the onus of trying to change people's minds of how. People view. Libertarians and they're trying to do this by leading with a message of compassion I rather than you know pounding on your keyboard and screaming at People Libertarians love to do. So they're looking at ways in which policies impact people and using the principles of Liberty to provide compassionate solutions. They both have backgrounds in healthcare they own a healthcare, it company, check it out good morning liberty wherever you get your podcast you can also. Subscribe to the podcast by going to Bernie lies DOT COM which. In an awesome awesome freezer x ray to their. Their podcast links page. So check that out good morning liberty. So they tracked you down and you end up serving time. Obviously at the beginning here, you have these three attempted escape so Successful escapes. From prison. What when did your mindset shift because I know that you? You know you had a Really good things while you were in prison, you know you became a mentor helping other prisoners with issues and Know became a positive force Eventually, you know you go onto to study the law, learned the law and ended up working for your own release. So what what shift happened there? Well, after I was caught for that master escape. I was center supermax. Federal supermax wishes this was before I was even on trial before I had trial it sent me. supermax federal prison up in Marion. Hammy. Locking near with people who are already convicted. I was only pretrial inmate. Ashley. They're. In so at that point, I realize that you know the only way we get out of student court system. So I was spending every day. Studying law recruitment, case law and. Learn everything I could about the law as it applies to my case. and. Desktop pretty much became. accustomed. To knowing the law. because. I was a situation where I kidding even get mail only thing I can get mailed books or nothing anything. That I had to read was law. Sodas where. Pretty. Much developed a keen understanding interpreting the law because I would re- case law over and over again sometime, I might be in a cell. Would only thing I have is one or two pieces of case law. Then I would read in things every day because that's the only thing I do. You know. From I learn how to interpret the law. So as the years went on. And I was actually released from A. In two, thousand and ten. Sin Producers in Europe, contact me about making a documentary. About the state. You know they thought that it was pretty genius the way that it happened. The fact that. Amount of work I put into it. Our under constant observation is still was able to pull it off so. They thought it was a big deal made a documentary about it documentary titled Breakout. The documentary aired all around the world. Net Day. On I started getting letters from people all over the world who were pretty much. Impressed by my story. To them, they didn't think that a person. You know from the streets continent who dropped dotted eighth grade was supposed to be intelligent enough to pull off this type in escape. So. To them, it was inspiring in. Just. That type of feedback from people Kinda like inspire me his nap. Made me feel like you know. Maybe. I'm worth more than you know what? I thought I was worth. You know maybe that I can't do something. you know hard work and I looked at that escape is hard work even though is against the law, but it is Kinda. told me like look usages just you know put some hard work tour something sometimes people will appreciate you when you use your brains. In try to conquer thing that's when people tend to. Respect and appreciate you and I think that. Over, my tire life, that's all I had ever been want this for somebody to say look man I appreciate you. Appreciate. The things that you've done. He knows the things that you've done has helped him because I didn't. Really do. Most of the things that I did for me I did it because I wanted to impress other people you know I wanted to be able to give to some people. I wanted money not because of myself I've never been like the flamboyant flashy type of person I wanted money so that okay when I come around, I can give it away. I can give it to people you know anything to feel like I was appreciated respected. When I was out there gang banging putting in work. How was doing it because I want to feel appreciated and respected so. When I started getting letters from law-abiding citizens and productive people all around the world who said that I was Kinda of inspiring. You know that kind of like. switched kind of like went off in my head like Maybe I need to start living my life in a way where I use my brain insulate. In that's how WANNA be able to. Earn the respect of. You know of people. So Later Solitaire 'til firemen. People wanted to know more about my story. So I wrote wrote a book chasing freedom. In spell it. D. Um in the reason was because that found that I've been chasing freedom the wrong way. All these years thinking that you know even like. Before I went to jail you know the void because we do these things because there's avoid within us that we WANNA feel. and. I. Believe I okay. If I can get a whole bunch of money, I'll be free. I'll be able to escape the ghetto I'll be able to. Escape police, brutality I'll be able to you know. Escape all this madness that I grew up in if I can just get a whole bunch of money your name once in prison I'm thinking okay. If I could just get out of prison be free but in all actually out. I was going about it. The wrong way because freedom is really a mind state. First name because. You can find happiness in prison. You can find happiness anywhere on this earth. If you look inside and take control yourself your desires so. I wrote the book pretty much. Giving people my life story. Try to help people understand why. I was the person I was why did things that I did? What I believe, it would take. For, me to be a better person hopefully that. GEICO teach other people how to deal with people who come from environment. Situations and circumstances as idea. To help China reform US and help us see the direction to where we can be more productive. In successful people in life. So that was my whole purpose of pretty much right in that book is to give people inside. Give people inside so that they understand in that, they can understand where we come from why we do the things we do in what we need to do to correct it. How hard is it? You know being in prison you're writing a book how hard was it to get that book published? In prison. It's as nearly impossible you'd have to do everything yourself. Even like. Even. Just writing the book. Was it. was hard work. Good thing about it I was in solitary confinement. He saw have plenty of time but even still it took me almost two years to actually write their book our right eight, ten hours a day. So you just right right it out by hand just writing out by hand with the Flimsy Inc tin that goes out every other word you got bended beating. Now. Massage Cherries and find. So is all types of madness going around me you got guys in a sale next door. A fight with the guards. So there's shoot pepper spraying gasoline tear when that happens you got to face up your cost in it. Is just so much. Such a Ruckus in violent environment but I was able to persevere. You know block this stuff out because I wanted to get my story out there because at the time I tell myself that this is it. This is the only way. My Stories WanNa get after you and it wasn't even so much about me. It was like the pain and I was feeling because here I am imprisoned with a thirty five year centers light never going to get out if I do I'm going to be very oh I have a child. I'll see I can't be there for. and. So I looked like my life was pretty much over. And so this book right here is the only way I want the world to know I want the world to know what I went through why became the person that I was in hopefully that people off were understand and be able to present other people from having to go through the things that I went through. And so I was determined to get that book out in. So all they I would write I'd write it I finish it. Jim, throw one away. At the same time I'm reading. Books on. Learn how to edit and grammar right punctuation and grammar and all that type of staff. Can I was able to put it together surprise me just a hell of a book everybody who reads it loves it. So when the book was. I was actually released with solid Chen five minute in two thousand fifteen. And I was sent to the United States. Penitentiary Canaan. In when I got there. I checked into this. This pro I. Rode into this program called the challenge program. In the challenge program is a modified therapeutic community where they teach prisoners. Cognitive skills. Rational. Thinking how Change your perception so that you can change their attitude about life in the world. Start to be more control of. Your destiny as opposed to perceive things the wrong way allow that to frustrates you. Send you down relative of self destruction? So? I sailed in that program became a mentor. STARTED TEACHING CLASSES DEVELOPING CURRICULUM Even, with that, I started doing some things that. Everybody. A lot of people were impressed pressed by you know because I was pretty much committed to it was at I was still at point points we're. Even, on imprison. Still matters to somebody even this is another prisoner. Or even if you know, my daughter is aware of the thing Saddam doing here to help. Maybe. That will make her feel a little better about the situation so that she don't look like my life was a waste. Are there she suffered in I didn't try to do anything productive as a result of her suffering. So A lot of driving forces was behind Nita. Compel me to do everything I can to try to be great. Even them circumstances. At the same time, I was still studying the law. So I was helping other prisoners get out of prison, get their sentences reduced. I was working with mentally ill prisoners, analyst Gander Wien, and inviting conflicts I was. Squashing beasts amongst prisoners hours. I was doing all types of stuff and it made me feel good. That's how I found piece by you know. Trying to be as much of a humanitarian is I can't even in certain. In so I self published a book. On Amazon. Shortly after that produces Hollywood came across the book they read it they. You're listening to the Hotlanta newsfeed radio network at live dot heartland fee dot com. This is supported by advertisers and contributions by. On facebook twitter and INSTAGRAM's. A campaign caravan that's miles long I'm Pam who sell Fox News supporters of president trump have jumped in their cars and we'll drive more than fourteen miles on new. York's Long Island Tim Murtaugh because the trump twenty, twenty communications director he tells Fox and friends of vote for Joe. Biden is a vote for the swamp president. Trump is still the political outsider in Washington. The Washington. Establishment still doesn't know what to make of him and Joe Biden is the consummate. Insider. Almost five decades of working in the swamp the president will rally in. New Hampshire this hour following back to back battleground events yesterday in north, Carolina Ohio and Wisconsin where he blasted Biden for the last half century Joe Biden's been outsourcing your jobs opening your borders and sacrificing American blood and treasure in endless and ridiculous our wars. From. Now, until the election, the president is keeping a full schedule, he'll be back in Florida on Tuesday. Vice President. Mike Pence also has a jam-packed calendar, and at this point he plans to keep it despite five of his advisors testing positive for the coronavirus that includes his chief of staff mark short who he's in close contact with the vice president himself has continued to test negative Joe Biden who attended church in Delaware this morning. With two of his granddaughter's has made the pandemic and the president's response to it. The central issue of his campaign experts say we'RE GONNA lose nearly two hundred thousand wives nationwide next few months. If we don't step up because he cares more about the stock market than he does about you while speaking in Pennsylvania yesterday Biden said that if he's elected, he won't shut down the country he'll shut down the virus America's listening to Fox News. 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Thirty first twenty, twenty one as of September first twenty, twenty new credited house of a variable purchased. APR At Twenty Three Point Nine percent of with the market based on the prime rate minimum interest charges two dollars such credit approval, visit blinds, dot com slash pay pal restrictions may apply. Fire? Tomorrow Night Judge Amy. Barrett. Could be an associate justice on the US Supreme Court her nomination needs to get over a procedural hurdle today. Then on Monday a final confirmation vote Democrats tried but failed to derail the process Senate Republican Marsha Blackburn weighing in on Fox and friends. Zeh Do not want a female from the Political Center Center right on the Supreme Court. They have invested the last forty five years into creating a narratives that you're not fully female in this country unless you've been to the agenda of the left in a surprise announcement yesterday a Republican Lisa Murkowski of Alaska announced that she would vote Yes for Barrett's confirmation Susan Collins of Maine is. Now. The only gop holdout Minnesota's attorney general wants to learn more about an out of state company said to be partnering with an unidentified firm to recruit private security guards to work during the presidential election Minnesota Attorney General Democrat Keith Ellison announced an investigation studied what he calls heightened public interest into a Tennessee based security firm and whether or not. That firm is hiring veterans to watch Minnesota's polling places, Allison, and other state attorneys. General have raised concerns over when Pollwatch, which is legal crosses. The line accusations of voter intimidation tactics have previously been leveled by both parties. Trump twenty twenty campaign has urged trump supporters to monitor the voting process especially in key battleground states. Jeff Monosso Fox. News some fifty, six, million Americans have already exercised their right to vote and lines have been long. This weekend at some polling places with people wrapped around buildings Texas nearly seven million ballots have been cast. That's the most in the country ham who sell Fox News. This holiday season blinds dot com is giving away a contact free home makeover, worth two thousand dollars, plus amazing prices each week go to blinds dot com right down to enter for your chance to win no purchase necessary rules. Restrictions may apply see blinds dot com for details. Government's new war against cash is really a war against us all but the secret is now out. So please get and read the secret war pick up your phone and call right now eight, hundred, nine, three to five, five, one, seven. Eight hundred nine three to five, five, one, seven once again that's eight hundred, nine, three to fifty, five, seventeen rectal noses. I hate that Guy I love that Guy Oh. My Gosh he's still fine. Rick tittle brings home the Bacon, fry it up in a Pan, and then he eats it ricky in the his official business. Welcome. Back to the show or total at the coast to coast and around the world on the American forces and. The way we will have. A. Meka on the show. She'll be coming up an hour from now. Or? Played. With her? Sister at the Stanford and Team USA as well. She's now working at ESPN. She hosts say National Radio Show. ESPN the first. Byu, MPA player to do that. She's here because she is going to be working as a holster. With the vote. and. I. Think it is obviously important vote if you have that privilege. Aunt there should be I was always raised. My grandmother talk in the vote was very proud thing and it's almost like religion. He didn't really talk about who you voted for, and now it's like who did you vote for because I can't have a conversation with you voted for blank. Ever been just the vehemence just if you're an extreme person on the left an extreme person on the right to the point where you can't hear one. syllable out of the mouth of the other side then you are insane. CanNot stand extreme laughed or extreme right? You guys are also stupid. Because it's my way or the highway I just I hate that. So I would love to get it back to where Americans actually Kinda got along but we've never hated each other more and I know that's an agenda that's been pushed from the very top they hate each other. and. I'm not trying to be pollyannaish and we're not ever GONNA love each other but. And the hate is just so bad anyway hopefully. Opening one way or another whatever side you're on hopefully, we can come together to common ground we won't. Know. All right. Let's talk from sports. Come back. Fever is leading symptom of the corona virus. So take your temperature twice a day with the exegen temporal scanner. It's quick and easy to use at its accuracy is backed by more than eighty clinical studies have your family start and end the day with the only home thermometer used recommended by hospitals, doctors, and nurses. Your family can take their temperatures in second to know where they stand in the fight against Kobe nineteen, protect your family from the spread of this deadly disease and stay safe with Exegen. Advance is helping you get your engine ready for the road this holiday season with the right oil filter at the right price every day get five quarts of full synthetic Mobil one valvoline castrol edge or pennzoil platinum with a Mobil one oil filter for just thirty, three, ninety, nine, plus this holiday season gets twenty five dollar NBA Store Gift Card in two times per points instantly to the purchase of five quarts of mobile one advance your auto advance auto parts, and participating carquest locations see store for details. Hello and welcome back to the Ronnie do each tax program on the line is Paul from California. Hi Paul what's your tax problem today hi, Ronnie Love, your show listen I've got a big problem. You see my paycheck was gorgeous last week and we'll get half the normal amount to make matters worse. The IRS froze my bank account listen I'm embarrassed and scared I need help listen. Paul. You'll need to feel embarrassed. 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The only way to access our low rates and save up to seventy percent is to call save hundreds on your vacation tickets by calling right now, you can fly anywhere in the. World and paid discount prices on your airline tickets. We'll go flight today to London Paris Madrid or anywhere. Else you WANNA. Go and pay a lot less guaranteed call the international travel department right now at low cost airlines eight, hundred, seven, five, four, four, five, three, one, eight, hundred, seven, five, four, four, five, three, one, eight, hundred, seven, five, four, four, five, three, one that's eight, hundred, seven, five, four, forty, five, thirty, one. Hour two of the leading sports you thought it couldn't get any better, but it's sputter rick little is back. He's so great. I can't believe how awesome he is more sportstalk. Yes. Couldn't get any better, but it spotter rick is back t so great I can't believe how awesome he is more sports talk. Yes. Our two of titillating sports. That's you know. All. Right. Check me out on. The lines are open at one eight hundred, eight, seven, eight play. Let's go to Houston Texas with my main man Christian Hey Dan Christian. I'm doing right mister to how about yourself. Not Too. Shabby. WHAT'S UP BUDDY? Nothing much I just got. You questions what actually A. and. Maybe one on an extra first of all the accent on a bi week and. Of course they've been playing. Well. Crap tastic. So to speak, they're running five. Do. You think that there's any hope of the Texans salvage ended season. Now. Well. I mean I say no latte out because but you. You know the the change GM, the changing coach but you still have a fantastic order back. I just think it's I just think it's a little bit too late right now for this season. Anyway. So what you're saying is Even though they have no. Drought Pick. No first round draft pick her. Neck staples draft who knows when that will happen. Day here is no within the seat. Now, I mean to be four games under at this point I mean if you if you wanted to take. Like you know just a serious look and you go week by week and it's not just about you anymore it's like who else? Would have to lose. So at one in six. I would mean in your own division, you would need Tennessee to collapse. I don't see that to win the division. So for Wildcard Indianapolis was foreign to Jacksonville's not doing anything so you'd have to get past. Indy. But then again, teams that have five Baltimore Wildcard with five wins. Cleveland is a wildcard with five wins you even have. The raiders and the chargers and the Broncos all with better records. So you're saying salvage the season as in making the playoffs. Anyway. They can make the playoffs at this point. Own Life something. This coach says. I guess eighteen years ago yesterday or today I'm not sure. But it's like. Was said you play to win the game? that's what led the jets to a wild card playoff spot in two, thousand and two I think. Hey Stranger things have happened I just think it would. It would have to be goofy for them to make it and they'd have to make it on some sort of I mean, they could go ten and six. They could win the next night games but I don't think so. Understood. I mean obviously, like you said, stranger things have happened before. especially. When it comes to the Cleveland Browns who had a winning record. Twelve years ago and didn't make the playoffs. That's right. uh-huh. Another question I would like to. And I know that you were on the air so you know your producer Dominic. Well, your producer. Now I guess I, don't know if it's dominic. Still. I know that you didn't get a chance to see this. Probably heard about this but. You know Mike Tyson and Jones Junior scheduled to fight November twenty eight. But, it's going to be a two minute round exhibition. Do you think that. Even though the California. State Athletic Commission basically saying. Oh This is gonNA. Be Straight up exhibition. They're just GONNA score Yadda. Yadda. Yadda. Do. You think it's really worth. Your time your value, your pay per view dollars. Just to see two guys. Way Past, their prime but still in shape. Just sparring. No and I'll tell you why Roy Jones Junior is my age Roy. Jones junior also was a light middleweight, and then he put on a few pounds to become a middleweight and then he became a super middleweight then he got old and fat, and he was a heavyweight and then he got so fat. They made him a cruiserweight you. I want to see a guy who who is really a middleweight at heart. Everybody champion Alot. Do I want to see him fight. Remember them that horrible controversy eight Olympics where he got screwed. But anyway and you, I really WanNa see a guy in his fifties who's completely fat. I mean this guy's like five eleven and two fifty or whatever no and Mike Tyson said that he wanted to cripple him or whatever. I know he's trying to sell. I think pound for pound in the history of boxing. I mean he to me Roy Jones Junior was the best fighter in the nineties pound for pound. I mean I'm hoping to take anything away from him and I know at some point he defected on say defected but he said he was a Russian citizen I mean he's gone through a lot of weird things in his life. To. It's like having a beauty contest for Kirstie alley when she was on. Cheers, she was pretty and it's not fair to her now to judge her like that because we all get old and fat and I don't WanNa see Captain Hook. Fight as old guy in his fifties. Understand you because I grew up watching Roy, Jones? Junior myself and. To be quite honest I'm old enough to be one of the done. Deal. Funded. The matter is. You know. It's crazy. When you see your favorite fighters. I have blend more left him. The BIG A to realize. You know you fight your favorite fighters just ain't what they used to be and they need to. Hang it up. I don't know if this. Mike Tyson's legends only leting it's GONNA work. But if it's GonNa Butts and. They say I hope this is just a one and done so that we can. All the members fighters for. You know what they used to do not what they try to. The guy that. Tarver, Antonio Tarver. Again. He beat him and then he lost to him and then they had to come back again it seemed like he fought Antonio Tarver like. Six Times. But the the one that probably I remember the most was that. One with Bernard Hopkins. Where Jones was you know he was really on his last legs. And this was. Fifteen years ago and then. They went the distance and Hopkins on decision. I. Remember, Roy. AGO But. But he dropped to his knees and I thought. That was fifteen years ago that he was all punched out. Sat. Deal I mean it's kind of the same thing for Mike Tyson. You don't see the same. Net got. beat down by Kevin McBride. Embarrassed by Danny Williams. You want say. Those guys are you just mentioned. So yeah, that is embarrassing. Well those two, the six guys well, two of the five guys that defeated Tyson. Obviously you lost the holyfield twice. About eating, Douglas. Indeed. And Lennox Lewis. But Lewis who yeah England claims him. Your question This is it's sad because I thought really that money mayweather and Pacquiao is sad. But those guys aren't elderly. These guys are elderly and it's like watching almost like watching Ken go fight Danny Bonnici I ain't having it. Yeah. No thanks. Or Jose can stay. They'll try that one MMA fight over in Japan a decade ago that was. I forgot all about that Chris. Thanks for the call man. I'm a good Halloween I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for having me on I hope you enjoy a safe Halloween as well and I'll talk to you on social media at. All right sounds good. By the way Teeny Oval Mugabe had to bounce. So we're GONNA try and get her. Next week that means open lines of the rest of the way we're not even halfway done. So come back. Hey travelers do you want to save money on your next flight? Then pick up the phone and call that's right call because the best prices are not online they're with smartfares. See smartfares has special deals with the airlines. When they have unsold seats, they use smartfares to fill them. So you get airline tickets at ridiculously low prices. Our prices are to low to publish online with the extra money you'll save you can book another trip or treat yourself to dinner or. Shopping. So stop searching all of those travel sites to find the lowest price on your next flight. 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But when you are in pain, there is one product that I recommend to my patients and that is blue Google blue consists of a proprietary formula developed specifically for the treatment of inflammation and general muscle aches and. Strains I recommend blue for my patients coping with hip and knee pain before surgery especially bursitis and tendinitis Gabe Lugo try call one, eight, three, three, zero, zero, one, two three and you'll receive one week supply of blue. Goo absolutely free the makers of blue or even paying the shipping the number again is one, eight, three, three, zero, zero, one, two, three. If you want more information on Blue Goo visit online at www dot du dot com now available at select the big five stores near you. You saying. That I put. An abnormal brain. Into a seven and a half foot long. Fifty four in Wyche. John. This is the only sports talk show that features a Rhode Scholar, but he ain't here today now that direct tiddle. He Ain't here today. Welcome back to the show Rick Tila with you. Rick's pics coming up. In the third hour and the lines are available as I. Say we're not even halfway done here. One, eight hundred. Eight, seven, eight play. We found out that. Clemson. Star quarterback national champion Trevor Lawrence announced that he had tested positive for Kobe nineteen. That means he will not play against B. C.. This weekend and the ACC match of Boston College Golden Eagles. And more important them is whether he'll be able to play in their biggest game of the year. which is going to be against Notre Dame, who's the fourth ranked team that'll be on. next Saturday. So he would need eight days. That's what they're. Looking at right now. Trevor. Lawrence going to be the number one overall pick although he said, who knows him I go back to Clemson. That would be dumb Andrew Lock to do that. But the AD at Clemson. Dan. Radic Kovic said that They found out about the test on Sunday. The ACC protocols requiring teams to test three times. During. Game Week Sunday Wednesday. Friday. He was tested on Sunday. Came back on Wednesday. And they announced that on Thursday. Actually I'm aware of someone who? At someone in their family, get it and said, well, the doctor says, I'm fine now because it's been two weeks and then they took a test and like while you're still positive. It affects everybody differently. This whole thing about Oh wait two weeks now it's gone or now you're not contagious how the hell do you know? Way before those every anytime pandemic, it always bugged me. When somebody will be like ooh. Yeah but I'm not contagious how the after you know whether you're contagious now if you walk by something dusty. And you sneezed. Nanna. I'm not sick. or like you swallow water down the wrong pipe and you're. Are you sick now, I swallowed. Some food went down the wrong way. That's when you're not contagious but anyway. Lawrence says that he has mild cove in one thousand, nine, hundred systems. The young strapping healthy kid. So It's unconfirmed when those symptoms again. The said you can be a dramatic anyway but. If you take into account, the ACC isolation protocols. The. Earliest, he could be cleared would be that Saturday November seventh against Notre Dame. saw this is the. From the ACC quote. Pursuant to the CDC Guidance Student Athlete who tests positive for covid nineteen shelby isolated for at least ten days from the onset of symptoms slash positive test, and at least one day I e twenty four hours has passed. Since, recovery defined as a resolution of fever without use of fever, reducing medications and improvement of respiratory systems, e. g., cough shortness of breath. Though, there are a couple of things there. Number One clemson can say, well, no, he was started feeling sick five days ago. There's no way to tell I love the fact that it says at least one day and then I e twenty four hours. In other words like you can say like at eight o'clock at night, and then the next day at eight am it's been a day. It's completely different day on the calendar. We that was Tuesday. Now it's a Wednesday it's been a day. At the actually say twenty four hours. And also, you say, well, the fevers down was the fever down because he's all better because you had advil or an aspirin. Last night what it is either. That's a tough thing to do because if you have a fever, you're taken aspirin a fever reducer see benefit whatever it is. And then you're like well in A. Down because of that. How do you know? So that's what has to be determined when the symptoms began and Clemson saying longtime ago wink wink wink. and. Otherwise the Wednesday start date. Might mean he'll get no practice. Like I said the clock began Wednesday to expire next Friday as long as he's symptom free for twenty four hours. That means that he will have to undergo all testing basically on the field before the game and that means passing numerous cardiac Dick already active cardiac numerous cardiac tests as well. So that means the five star prospect. Which is name that I always have a little bit of problem pronounciation. Is. Dj You got lay. You. Actually you're supposed to pronounce every civil. So it's we on Goule Lula. And I'm trying to get this right We Aung Goulet that's what he says. Goulet you Jay we on Goulet, and if this guy is famous, I'll have no problem with that Kinda like Janas onto Toco that took a while we on Goulet. This is a guy who has obviously simone descent, but he went to John Posco tech a Salesian school down in bellflower in La and this guy was a five star recruit. And so he gets the he gets a chance to go. And the thing on him. Excuse me. Is that they said when he was in college that he was, he's half Ben. Rothlisberger. Half Am Newton. And that's because his Dad David. EUA? Lay. Was a celebrity bodyguard. Down in Hollywood. You'd say, why was he a celebrity ball? Well, he was a bodyguard for Chris. Brown. Also Dj College. As. Well, and the reason is, is because his Dad David is four hundred twenty. Yeah, different kinds of four twenty. Two Fat Guy But when his son Dj was sixteen years old. I. Remember Reading About him on rivals dot com because he was the number one overall prospect. Coming into. Class. You got his first scholarship offer in the sixth grade and plus when he was sixteen years old, he was six four to thirty five. And the thing is is that it said that he had Ben Rothlisberger dropback poise in other words big tall guy throughout back stand strong in the pocket. But he had Cam Newton's modern quarterbacking prototypes. About being fluid and being able to. Run. They say that he can throw a football eighty, five yards sanding still. which is. I would say unbelievable but I know that Dan Passerini did that at Santa Clara and speaking in the South Bay I know that John Elway did that at Stanford. Are Some guys I'm sure that. Patrick mahomes could probably do that. he also, of course, like Con Kapernick, it ninety on a gun from the bump. And Guy That he baseball scouts want to draft him, but he's just. He's just now. Like now, I'm GonNa, go play football. And so. there. Are. Times when a guy needs to step up and times when guys you now. Absolutely just choke and I hope that this kid is able to step up. But as I said, he's already five star accrued and I'm sure that he's going to be the starter when Trevor Lawrence leaves. I remember when Guy, who I went to high school with. who was a year ahead of me? Was the starting quarterback on varsity named, Jeff Toretta and Jeff Tarita went to Saint Mary's College. where I played because his brother Gary in fact Gary and I both wore number twelve for the GAELS. Let Gary was a quarterback there. And then he wasn't playing at Saint Mary so he transferred to DVD's. And he went to cal cal he was told he would be six string. which was fourth school he transferred to Miami where he backed up. Vinny Testaverde. Testaverde as a in his last year there. With the canes wiped out on his mopeds on national TV against the South Carolina Pirates we saw we saw Jeff Toretta start. I remember Bent Brent Musburger did the game goes who's just Terada? and. Then we found out and his brother a little brother. Ended up winning the HEISMAN. Trophy. That was how he got the connection with Miami because his brother played there. But anyway I digress it's always Kinda. Cool to see the next guy step up and being a kid and being seen online is. Below. The only thing they have in common is the the heritage because this guy is an absolute Byron left which. Jamarcus Russell Body? Type. Hopefully, a better quarterback than the. For mentioned. Jamarcus all right. I'm Rick Tuttle we'll take a quick break come back on violence. If your home service business is not at the top of Google maps winning reviews dot com is here to help you need to be careful working on your Google, my business profile, which is what shows up on Google maps one at steak, and you'll be on page two winning reviews. Dot. COM offers a workshop to teach you how to get to the top of Google maps. Don't let your competition have that top spot check out winning reviews, DOT COM, and get to the top of Google maps go to winning reviews dot com that's winning reviews dot com. With so many new pet owners, Qisas, grooming, can't keep up. Grooming. Sorry. Well, fuck solid through the weekend I can give you a call back low with something opens up it's time to hire. Indeed indeed do the moment you sponsor a job on. 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Don't know that means but welcome back to the show good to have you with us on a Friday and it's open lines russell the way. Picks coming up in the second hour as well. Are. You surprised about Aj hinch. If you didn't hear this morning Lou rumors are true. He is going to be the new manager of the Detroit Tigers. Signed a multi year contract. and. La The general manager there. You acknowledged that hinch and Alex Cora. Course the other part of the science dealing scandal. but those guys are on the list. And that Apparently, he didn't have any problem. Without as GM. And Hint said I'd like to thank. sillage and Al Allah for giving me a chance and the opportunity back in the dugout and lead the historic ballclub. Last year was the most difficult of my life. He gave me time to reflect. which was such a big part of this process everything that has transpired over the past year personally and professionally. As put so much in perspective from me. And reinforced how important it is to do things with integrity and honesty. and. He concludes quote my feelings towards baseball are the same at so many detroiters. Have for this team. Through thick and thin, you always care about it. Rely on it. For it to be a part of your life and I'm so proud to play a role in growing that tradition here with the Tigers. Having a talented young core of players dedicated leadership groups and passionate fan base was exactly what I was looking for in a team. And it's clear that we have that here in. Detroit. Sites, it's time to start. Laying winning baseball and I'm. This organization has position to make that happen him. Aj hinch the former Oakland draft pick out of Stanford. Is, back in. Baseball? And? We'll get back then the second let's go to the phone lines one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, play Hell's kitchen charlie what's up man? Already doing my friend Few questions. Three questions specifically baseball basketball football. What's your feeling about the white? SOX macos. Marriage. Only eleven. Hundred Sixty. Nine years old. Seventy six years old and. I'm very surprised that this is a guy that has managed for what nine years he's already hall of fame. She got a ring with the Red Sox as a just a front office helper guy too. That's another one to throw on the old hand but I think the dusty Baker thing? Helps, but also the friendship that he has with Charlie. REINSDORF and he was mad at Hawk Harrelson fired him in eighty six. So it's a very unique thing, but it is weird man. Yeah I read that he had strong digitize the organization still but I mean listen if Biden wins presidency and he's the president seventy, seven and dusty. Seventy Connie mack was a manager eighty seven. Why Not That's how me he's a sick of being with his wife. Well you know what else is weird to? You when you speak about the candidates. These. Candidates for president are both older. And Clinton and George Bush who we elected in the nineties I don't know I seventy is the new forty. You know I'd rather have forty but this is what we have to work with for now quick football question with with the trait looming deadline looming. If you're the raiders stugotzs go out and make an acquisition of someone like. went to Seattle but like the Gino. Acting. Kerrigan you know would that you had tried to bring in a piece or you just Ride with I would I would look at I would look at both of those guys if they're I for sixth and seventh round picks, I'm not trading anything. EVALU-. For some broken down that trend at this point, they have to draft better this this whole thing that they've been doing with all these receivers and tight ends and you know I've been saying this for years to just draft all seven rounds on defense they're they're the worst team in the NFL against the run and you know thorough can't do anything and. Trying to get sacks which he's not getting. It's just they gave me collins all that money. They've done a piss poor job on on defense. So yeah, Carrigan. Him for six round pick. I'm not giving you A to forum. No, no I agree with you think their. Free Agency and the way they handle draft is just as you say, Piss poor and they need to. Reassess. How they approach things. But anyway. So and finally, NBA Question Warriors. Number two pick rolling mill seems to be that they're closely oppression whitesman at the moment. if you're the warriors and tickets selected. Up Three Tech. You drive the Weizmann warm. Say. I'm not. GonNa Mention. Anymore but say, though was. Contact you and they say, we want to offer you Bradley beal for your number two next year as well and. and. Wiggins which make by charities stick to your guns and draft. Weisman or whomever all be token. Yeah, look I mean Bradley Beal Plays Clay's position. He's twenty. Twenty eight years old now. So I I would say no to that I mean look there are some intriguing guys ob top intriguing and Denny. Agios however, you say it he's intriguing and of course, everyone likes Anthony Edwards and Lamelo ball but. I think if they do stay there even though I've seen them dropped six and some mocks I don't think that's possible but. Wiseman when he had that whole thing, go down with Penny Hardaway and all that he was supposed to be the consensus number one overall pick the thing I like about him is not only as he seven foot one and growing, but he's he's two hundred and forty pounds. You know he's not a stick and he not only scored twenty points a game he pulled down eleven rebounds a game so that to me means he can play defense and he can play offense. So. I know he's just a kid but I would probably go wiseman. Yeah I think so too the more I'm reading about him in educating myself about him I think I think in that in that system with that team, and then you won't. They can groom slowly. you know maybe he's the mid level exception for Marcus O. or something like that and bring him along slowly I I would stick with that two minutes not. ENOUGH MEMPHIS? Trading zapping number one pick. Dr. Larry. Taking between. The browns and the raiders in Cleveland this weekend well. I if if if the If the if the raiders had A. A below average defense. which they don't even have that I would think the rate is the win. I don't know I don't know what to expect every. Cleveland's defense is supposed to be future. So that's bodes well for the raiders. Myles Garrett is playing her you know Odell Beckham out. Chubb running back is out I think. I think it's a thirty, eight, thirty, four game. I'm I'm fatalistic, but I'm going to pick the raiders. But I I. Hope you're right. I think Kareem Hunt runs one hundred and fifty yards and we lose forty two seventeen. Allow you think raiders are going to get blown out. I do because I think it's it's time for them to look pathetic against a pathetic team on the rise. Well, okay. Okay. I hope you my. I hope I'm wrong to Charlie. All right. You have a good weekend. Happy Halloween. Next. Take for that as a little early rix pick there and And my soccer team. Tottenham, playing a late game Sunday against Brighton and Hove Albion that's going to be eleven fifteen. So late game Sunday against. Brighton. And hove albion that's going to be eleven fifteen. So. If the raiders are GONNA, have to watch it on two different screens obviously. And I always say the soccer games more important because the raiders can't be relegated. Go and sixteen and be fine but. I swear it's like twenty one to nothing. I might just. Let that the Raider game on my phone and glance at it now, and then because I get so disgusted sometimes when they. They just don't show up. But anyway to wrap up AJ hinch thing. He remembered diamondbacks fired Bob Melvin. Melvin was an assistant coach Bob Bradley on the World Series by nothing. Bradley did it was going out and getting curt schilling and Randy Johnson a guy that's been the won the world series. Bob Melvin takes over he's manager of the year of the diamondbacks they fire him and put in. Aj hinch. You only last two years there. And then he was. An assistant general manager with the holidays. People don't know that they forget it. For he was with the Astros for five years, and of course, three straight one hundred plus when seasons twenty seven world series banging on trash cans. And now he played seven years in the bigs he just could not hit. It was the Best College Catcher I've ever seen seriously. He was I was over the moon. We got him in the third round. I didn't watch Buster Posey Joey Bart I saw Aj hinch play and I thought he was fantastic. He wasn't college. But like Bob Melvin, he played for the Tigers at some point. And Lewis said coming into this managerial search. We already knew that Aj's diverse baseball acumen knowledge of analytics and passion for the game are second to none. However, we also knew there were some important conversations to have about AJ's time in Houston throughout that dialogue. was clearly remorseful and use that time to reflect on the situation and we believe he will emerge as a better leader because of it this ball club is entering an extremely exciting period with young players primed and ready to make an impact at the major league level. I confident age as the best man for this job as we strive during a world series championship back to the city Detroit. Then Mr is son who runs the team now. Law Blah Blah this is. On behalf of the Tigers welcome to the community, and he's changed in profound ways. Listen. I would not have made this higher. I would rather got some guy like Kevin cash or JAS Tingler like some new guy and given him his chance Aj hinch has been manager of two different teams. He's got a ring. Yes. I think most of that is because Jeff Luneau and what he did in the front office. but AJ hinch. You're going to go ahead and bring back guy an. La Does a look, the overall pick and Casey Mayes they got Tareq School Matt. Manning the got some great young guys. There is a creeds desk cameron. There in that whites that division with the White Sox, the twins and the Indians that's going to be hard to win in that division. So you know, you want a guy who's one at all you got your guy but it's just tainted and hint said he was never on board with the cheating but he was complicit he did know about it. And he didn't stop it. He's reflected I guess he had a lot of mirrors and he's not a vampire because he did reflect a lot and I don't hate Aj hinch announced say he shouldn't get another job. Just I'm hiring a job I go out and I get a new guy I give somebody a chance I give some guy who's been toiling in the minors and has really shown that he like I said Jay. Single who the hell heard of him. Kevin Cash I would rather get a guy like that, but I can charge. Take a quick break. We'll come on back. The House I. Promise through though. I want to. Be. At Twenty eight I'd struggled with opiate and Meth addiction for twelve years. I didn't said things that the sober me never would have done. One day. I realized I was not invincible. I it was not exempt. Ask a friend. Told me about the Lee placement. They gave me the tools I needed tickets sober and all it took was one phone call. Elite Rehab can help you start to break your addiction problem and get sober in as little as seven days, and we'll work with your insurance provider to help cover the costs plus we have traveled assistance programs to get you here by plane or train. Make this free call right now to learn more eight, hundred, four, zero, three, five, nine, one to eight, hundred, four, zero, three, five, nine, one to eight, hundred, four, zero, three, five, nine, one, two, that's eight, hundred, four, hundred, three, fifty, nine, twelve. I'm. Sorry. Okay. I just need you to listen to me I. Know that a lot of times mom it might not seem like I'm listening to you but I am I hear you And what you save really doesn't matter to me I mean, let's be honest. No Kid likes rules but I get why we have them I hear you and I know it's because you care all the talks we've had over the years including what you've told me about not using alcohol and other drugs they stick with me and believe it or not. They really do make a difference especially at times that matter months. Drink nothing. Some good. So thank you. For talking and preparing me for what's ahead. For. Never giving up and always being my biggest fan. Thank you for letting me know what you expect. So I can try to meet your expectations. Talking for more information about talking with your kids about underage use of alcohol and other drugs. visit each drinking dot samsa Dot Gov. Attention homeowners do you have a house in need of serious repairs? Do you have tennis that never seem to make their monthly payments about code violations past due taxes or maintenance costs? You just can't afford call my friends right now quick cash offer they specialize in buying any home no matter how ugly the situation turn that problem property into cash right now, it's just that simple one call and you can get rid of that home headache forever they by. The ugliest houses with instant closings, instant cash and huge savings plus they're no realtor fees no listing fees it no repair costs just cash in your hands. For that painful property, they're buying a few more houses in your neighborhood this month. So take advantage of this cash offer and call quick cash offer. Now Eight, hundred, four to six to three zero, one, eight, hundred, four to six to three, zero one. That's eight, hundred, four to six, twenty, three, oh one. You guys will wear jerseys for teams that you're not even on. But you think you're on the team. You'll be like, yeah, last night I guess we just didn't score enough. Last night I? Guess we just didn't play defense way. The redskins don't need you. Okay. That's like me watching grey's anatomy in scrubs. Don't be getting your granny panties all in a bunch. We got rick till up in here. For that and Welcome back to the show one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, play. emails Rick. Sports byline DOT. com. From Chrissy. Rick what was the first movie that really freaked you out? Know. That's a great question. There was one movie where this guy walked around with a black and white movie where he had a chopped off head in a box had open it and the chopped off head could talk that one freak me out. But I remember there was one. I think it was made for TV, but it was called bad. Ronald? I was about I don't know like nine or ten years old and the family moves into a house but there's this. Is Weird Kid who kills people and he lives like in the In the addict or whenever they open like a little like you know. Ventura duct like bad Ronald would be in there and I was such I got so freaked out that whenever I would see a little like door going to an addict like my brothers, we'd always go no bad Ronald. Bad Ronald which never heard of the me anyway. We got another hour come on back. You're listening to the heart news feed Radio Network Broadcasting Live twenty percent of her newsfeed. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by. Follow us on facebook, twitter and instagram. He's playing offense and defense. Lisa. Brady Fox. News heading out to the first of three rallies today president trump telling reporters more people with covid nineteen are getting better. Medicine, I would go the jurors. Other people call them therapeutic. He's defending his pandemic response. Joe Biden accuses him of doing nothing and mishandling the crisis. They'll each campaign in three Midwestern states today overlapping in Wisconsin, and Minnesota, and the trump campaign has just released schedule for the final days of campaigning planning fourteen rallies in ten states. Tomorrow through Monday Biden derides the president's large crowds as super spreader. Events Meantime early voting continues to break records around the country over eighty million Americans have already cast ballots either person or by mail while vigils are held in France over two deadly suspected terror attacks thousands take to the streets elsewhere upset about the French response. Fox's Simon. Owen has this live at least there's been a number of anti-france protests in Muslim countries today. Was Karachi. Pakistan where a crowd burned an effigy of the French President Bryant police fired tear gas at protesters trying to march towards the French embassy. They've also been Bradley's in Turkey Lebanon Bangladesh and elsewhere the anger follows French President Emmanuel Macron's defense of the use of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad a suspected Islamist extremists killed three people at a church in niece France yesterday Lisa thanks Simon just getting word of an alert issued at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill because of reports of a person described as armed near campus no confirmation of any armed person found but they're telling people to shelter in place America is listening to Fox News. SURGING COVA cases lead to new restrictions in one Texas County and a possible fight with the state El Paso County Texas. We'll go back into shutdown mode due to a spike in corona virus cases in we don't respond we will see unprecedented levels of deaths, Ricardo semin. Yego. The county judge ordered the shutdown which includes back restaurants, salons, gyms but now there are complaints El Paso cities, mayor says, he wasn't consulted, and now the state attorney general promises to challenge if someone Yego says go ahead Done as been in the governor's order at one point in the shutdown has ordered for two weeks, Eddie Brown Fox News worldwide struggle with thousand nineteen continues total cases. Now over forty, five, million Italy, just reporting a new single day record over thirty, one, thousand, a UK over twenty, four, thousand France and Germany are set to begin nationwide partial lockdowns. A group representing the tourism industry is warning the faces total collapse and calling for different strategy to control corona virus the world travel, and tourism. Council says Global Travel and tourism could lose a hundred, seventy, four, million jobs this year because of. Bans on travel between countries and quarantines, the council says, prolonged restrictions could eliminate four point, seven trillion dollars in the sector's contribution to the global economy. This year down more than fifty percent from a year ago. The group wants quarantines replaced with rapid cost effective testing. The group previously predicted one, hundred, Ninety, seven, million job losses, but revised the number because China has managed to better contain the virus genucel Fox new last trading day of October could cap the worst week on Wall Street since March when pandemic shutdowns started right now the Dow is down three hundred five points separating Fox News. STAMPS DOT COM brings the post office and ups shows writes your computer go to stamps, dot com to start a four week trial plus free postage in digital scale with Promo Code Fox that stamps dot com click on the microphone at the top of the page and type in Fox. Works vandalism graffiti and car spinouts were the celebrations of choice. USA Radio News. I'm Lance pry. Not Too long ago it felt good to withdraw your cash from the bank. Didn't it for a vacation or a new car but today withdrawing your own cash has become risky Pat Boone here for swissamerica according to the secret war a new Swiss America, white paper I learned that all banks are now required to spy on you and me for the government. and. Then report any financial behavior deemed suspicious or unusual. You must read the secret war it's free truth is I believe the government's new war against cash is really a war against us all but the secret is now out. So please get and read the secret war pick up your phone and call right now eight, hundred, nine, three to five, five, one, seven. Eight hundred, nine, three to five, five, one, seven once again that's eight, hundred, nine, three to fifty, five, seventeen. Rick till noses for I hate that guy I love that guy on my gosh he's so fine. Brick tittle brings home the bacon fry it up in a Pan, and then he eats it ricky t in his official is not. Come back to the show Friday tgif edition of the leading sports I'm. RECTAL. My. House is the studio here downstairs here, the computer room which is bedecked with a lot of. Soccer scarves and such things. No Webcam, you don't need it. Bullets, twitch Nah only in the studio. On the other side of the bay over in San Fran. But people say no one says San Fran I say Frisco is the one that sounds dumb. But. Anyway it doesn't matter one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, a play. Chali brought up Tony Larussa. Who? If dusty. Baker, stays with the Astros he's no longer the oldest manager in baseball. In fact, he's five years younger. It's All Time Wins, only, Cornelius may get a color. Connie Mack and John McGraw. Rose. One of the biggest SOB than history as a player. As a passenger but only those two guys have one more game has two, thousand, seven, hundred, twenty, eight wins. Either way, he's only twenty five away from tying McGraw so he should. There when it comes to play offline or going to be pouring. All this extra around of playoffs, Joe and eighty four wins. Larousse has seventy. And I mean think about the White Sox, it's not just about the friendship with Reinsdorf. Got Jose Abreu who was a MVP candidate Dallas. Kyko. Pitched gray got the Kid Lucas. Toledo pitches grade. They got some veterans and Tim Anderson and. Nine, hundred yards, Monte Krahn, doll, and then the youngsters Yoan Moncada. From the stocks and the Chris Dale, a sale deal Jimenez who got from the cubbies Louise? Robert. Young Center fielders all baseball. They really should've built the as they have some guys who absolutely mash. Yeah, there are very ambitious group and they'll be playing against Aj hinch nineteen times a year. Right one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, eight, play big shuttled troops listening on. American. Forces Radio Network. Abuse they save come home soon, I couple. Advance is helping you get your engine ready for the road. This holiday season with the right oil the filter at the right price every day get five quarts in full synthetic Mobil one valvoline castrol edge or pennzoil platinum with a Mobil one oil filter for just thirty, three, ninety, nine plus this holiday season get a twenty five dollar NBA store. Gift Card and two times skied. Points instantly the purchase of five quarts of mobile one advanced auto at advance auto parts participating carquest locations see store for details. Hello and welcome back to the Ronnie. Do each tax program on the line is Paul from California Hi Paul. What's your tax problem today hierarchy? Love your show listen I've got a big problem. See My paycheck was gorgeous last week and only get half. The normal amount to make matters worse the IRS froze my bank account listen I'm embarrassed and scared I. Need some help listen Paul. You don't need to feel embarrassed you just need some tax help and the great news is the IRS has some unbelievable programs that can eliminate your tax debt. So you don't have to worry about having your paycheck garnished or your bank levied doesn't. that. Sound. Great. It sure does Ronnie. Then do yourself a huge favor and get a free consultation right now and tell them the tax lady sent you eight, five, five, seven, one, five, five, seven, two, one, eight, five, five, seven, one, five, five, seven, two, one, eight, five, five, seven, one, five, five, seven to one that's eight, five, five, seven, one, five, Fifty, seven, twenty, one. Dot at all I don't. Not at all, what are we pastor baton yesterday? All say like this. Is Ted on Monday or Tuesday da On? These days nothing is normal and everything is weird but you could still save big when you switch to progressive that won't change. Or Any Progressive Dot Com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company influence. I'm going to tell you how you can get real healthcare for as little as six dollars a day. Yes. Now, you can get affordable health care for you and your family immediately and save as much as fifty percent of your current monthly healthcare payments are plans are perfect for people that are self employed can't afford health benefits where they were or just WanNa pay less for their current healthcare and cover just guaranteed regardless of your medical condition we even. Offer. Some of the new Christian faith based health benefits save up to fifty percent on your family's healthcare. Make a free quick call. Now there are no contracts and we give you a ten day money back trial period call provision enrollment right now for your risk-free guaranteed health insurance quote starting at six dollars a day eight, hundred, four, seven, two, five, one, four, five, eight, hundred, four, seven, two, five, one, four, five, that's eight, hundred, four, seven to fifty one, forty-five. Hello again and vacant through the show. So you see. Tie. Saw Gone. Rick kittles got a black belt in keeping it real. Real looking back to the show Rick Tila with you and we will get. Some Rick's pics and the lines are available at one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, eight, play. I don't know if you're a huge soccer fan like me probably not. But I was sad to see this morning the nobby stiles has passed away. I'll be styles to me encapsulated like my first impressions of what English soccer was and that was five foot six. Snarling midfielder with no frontier. And a comb over. And yet, he played every minute of the one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, six, World Cup campaign where the. The only time England has won the World Cup. And of course, that was at Wembley in the overtime against Germany and the Geoff Hurst hat trick into the boggled over the line probably not. But he was the first. olding. Midfielder that was basically a destroyer. and. a legend with Manchester United. He was part of that team in sixty eight the first British team to win the European. Cup. Hardly. Ever scored any goals. You would score maybe one per year, and that's because as I said, he was the teeth in front of the defense to let other is like I'll be Charlton in Callahan and some others jet forward. But just the name you know Norbert Styles or knobby. A Guy who? Just, I don't know encapsulated. What I think he was seventy eight years old I. Remember about ten years ago. He had like a stroke or a mini stroke and he sold off all metals and Manchester United bought them. Two hundred thousand dollars worth Botham, and then put them in their own museum. which I thought was cool. It's like we'll give you the money, but we don't want this stuff to get out in the public. It's we shouldn't. Shouldn't do that but. The guy that was born in Manchester an air raid. Like that and of course, that was during the blitz and World War signed his apprentice papers right after the Munich. Air. Disaster. Which? Of course was a great tragedy? Tragedy and. Charlton brother surviving that. By the way. A day. Yeah. Taken off in the snow. But anyway R.. P.. To not not be stopped and we've lost a lot of that nineteen sixty, six team. There's just nobody like that. As I said, five foot six, no frontier home over little Pale. You know just terrier. In most unathletic looking dude ever see. But he would just destroy. Destroy I tell you all right, one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, eight play. Another interesting tidbit of news today is who Steve Nash has picked. Be His right hand man in. Brooklyn as of course, Nashes now, the head coach of the nets there. And it's Mike the Antoni what's Like the Antoni, an assistant coach after what he did with New York and what he did with the Houston Rockets remember when they lost the Lakers he stepped down. And apparently, the Pelicans offered him the head coaching job and he said, no, there was another part that the pacers offered him the job and he said, no, this is a two-time coach of the year by the way. Let reunites with Nash of course. So he coached in two separate stints. And most notably, of course, that was their time in in Phoenix when Nash was the Star and the MVP twice. They had a great offense down there. That's the old seven seconds or less. And so Nash. In his first head coaching job he needed to lean on somebody who knew. What to do as a coach? and. As inspired as a choice, this is and as gracious says, it is for a guy of the Tony Stature to become an assistant when he obviously could have had other. Head coaching jobs. Is the fact that does this diminish Steve Nash as the head coach? Because if you're Kyrie irving or Kevin Durant and you come into a time out. And Steve Ashes on the Reese Board you go here you said a screen there. And and and Mike Dantonio Kinda. Sad. They're looking at the board to and it's like, can you? Can You chime in here coach? Or Steve Nash going to be the Guy who goes look during this time out I need you to draw something up. And then it's basically like you know. Someone running the kingdom for you. The Viceroy. You know. It's just a little weird. But also, joining the staff is e May Daca who spent seven years under Gregg Popovich in San Antonio. Most, recently with the sixers. And like the Antonia Doku was considered for several head coaching jobs as well. There was a rumor that he was offered the Bulls job. There was a rumor he was offered the sixers job. I don't think he was offered either one of those because the guy would have taken him. I think what it was. He was under consideration for those. He brings in. What he learned under Popovich's stewardship. And that's good. Because if you think about what might Tony Knows About the pick and roll and other things, and then about what a Doco knows about passing the ball, you learn from Popovich and then you about Nash as a player. That's a pretty impressive coaching staff for a first timer. The thing is Jacques Vaughn. The former UCLA guard. Jacques von apparently been told that he will remain. The top assistant coach. He will remain the top assistant coach. And also Amari stottlemyre. Going, to join the front office and focus on player development, of course, those guys were teammates. And Phoenix as well as we know. But that means that. I think this is really just in entitled because as D. N. Tony really going to be like I'm third in charge. Your third and charge. Yeah. Third in charge. I don't know about that. But you know like every young skipper has to have somebody knows what they're doing. have to that's what usually you do. There have been some people who've complained that you know some of these young managers like agape Kappler like. Who's your old guy? WHO's the guy that's been you know the bench coach here forever under a Lou and Boji. Oh, you mean. `was and I guess him. I remember when I was a ball dude before they were called that when dusty was in his first ever season. San Francisco and ninety four I did it for three games. They had this guy named Bobble Hillis Ob Hilas was nickname the flea and he was one of the most frowny frowny. Ever seen just always in a bad mood. By the way Bob Lilla is still with us he's ninety years old. But this was a guy who played. As a shortstop for the Brooklyn dodgers I mean he had been around forever. Whenever and dusty know him. From his time with the the dodgers but when. Dusty. Needed to make a pitching change or anything else you know. Evolve what should I do need be like our earlier. was always like that error. So you'RE GONNA, go to a time out. Like the end Tony Asari Mike, Dantonio Jacques Vaughn. What should we do? Like all the bright minds, all the successful winning experience you can bring in is good. How shocked are you that this guy taken an assistant job? Maybe he's tired of the focus on him armored. We'll take a quick break come back on sports. We are the jet destroy our network any you have credit card, Ted's student loan debt call. Now for free information that helps you destroy your debt. It's great advice plus. Free Call. Now, we have debt destroyer experts ready to help. They can show you how to destroy debt and get your life back on track debt problems don't have to be overwhelming. You could live stress-free and debt free, Credit Cards Medical Bills IRS tax problems even student loan debt learn about free programs offered by the credit card companies hospitals, and even the government that can help slash your debt call the debt destroyer. Now for free information call now eight, seven, seven, three, six, zero, four, zero, two, eight, seven, seven, three, six, zero, zero, four, zero, two, eight, seven, seven, three, six, zero, zero, four, zero, two, that's eight, seven, seven, three, six, zero, zero, four, zero true. I don't even recognize myself anymore. I'm really worried about him is addiction. I haven't seen this. Ever. I never wanted to start using I, knew the drill but I was out of options. I just WanNa tell them. It's not your fault. There are people out there who can help. People have felt your pain they know what you're going through. The says stop. I'm losing everything. Everyone you've been strong your whole life you can do this, but you have to reach out for help. It's time. I can do this addiction is a disease diseases new treatment call quick drugs three, two, one now at eight, hundred, three, three, eight, six, nine, zero, six, eight, hundred, three, three, eight, six, nine, zero, six, that's eight, hundred, three, three, eight, six, thousand, nine, zero, six paid for by the detox and treatment help line. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans then you may qualify for new programs offered by the Department of Education these programs can reduce your interest, lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness if you have ten thousand dollars or more and at least two federal student loans and currently not in school, you may qualify for one of these. Programs call now to check your eligibility student loan advisors are standing by to help you determine. If you qualify for these new programs, they can help you reduce your interest, lower your payment, and even forgive a portion of your student loan debt take control of your financial future. Make this free five minute free call now to nationwide student loans and learn how you can reduce your student loan debt. Eight, hundred, four, three, nine, seven, five, one, eight, hundred, four, three, nine, seven, eight, five, one, eight, hundred, four, three, nine, seven, eight, five, one, eight, hundred, four, three, nine, seven, five, one. Playoffs we'll talk about play offs. You can't me play offs I just hope we can win a game. Rick till two hundred chicken wings at Yo. Mama's house last night now back to fat boy. That boy in effect what's Up Rick, picks coming up. We're in the week eighteen plan by the way. A vote they weren't going to but well think about this. Fourteen teams have had their by weeks. Another four. HOUSTON. Jacksonville Washington Arizona. They're in their bye week this week. That makes more than half of all teams that had their by weeks. In the rear view mirror. And the NFL. has shown that it's more than comfortable now than it was three weeks ago. Do not let it confirmed positive result or multiple positive results. Derail a game I mean the bills did not have to move their week. Eleven game. Despite their tight end room going in entirely wiped out I mean, look at the raiders last week. Earl line was sent home and it's like we'll play on time ever. They moved The Sunday night game all the raiders that. They played. And they lost. But if the League has to move the game in the future. It's going to be a lot more difficult without the flexibility of moving around these weeks. Fourteen teams have by weeks left. That's very little wiggle room. For that quote Unquote Week Eighteen. So the leaks does play all two hundred and fifty six regular season games. But it might be a little bit hard. We'll see also saw an interesting poll. On CBS Sports Jonathan Jones said that he contacted all NFL teams just took a Paul about what team would pass on Trevor Lawrence if there are a number one. And there were three unanimous choices, the chiefs, the cardinals, and the bengals. Obvious reasons and those reasons are Patrick mahomes calorie and Joe. Borough. And you'd say, well. Are. You telling me that the Ravens. I wouldn't why wouldn't the Ravens s when you have MVP Lamar Jackson? And the reason is there is that Lamar Jackson's big pay day is coming. And that they think that he'll be just behind mahomes and it'll be at least forty, two, million dollars a year. I'm happy for these guys they deserve every penny of it. They really do they put their life on the line for the sport. It's just makes me laugh when I say forty, two, million dollars a year. For, an NFL. Team. But they really say we'll take lawrence now because he's going to be cheaper I don't think. So another one that was not unanimous where the Seattle seahawks. and. That's because you know there's a chance that Russell Wilson. Could leave. But I mean think about it the chargers. Have Come. The Texans have committed. To the Shawn. Watson who's also great. but I mean, what if you? What if the Green Bay packers had it? To Jordan love and they already have Aaron Rodgers. Well I think you'd have to mention the Green Bay packers there because if they're going to move up to take Jordan love. I wouldn't they'd take. Trevor. Lawrence. You might ask the buffalo bills, they liked Josh Allen. I would they spend their first round pick on that guy? because. He's better. If you believe that. The Titans, they will have Tanna. Hill. For a few more years. Old. The Rams Have Jared Goff. Jared. Goff got to the Super Bowl and Laden egg. You could say the Dallas Cowboys Dak Prescott as. Horrible injury and HE'S ON A. Franchise. Anybody else. We can say the dolphins what about two to just starting now and he's only starting now because he's the future. So. It's it's a possibility but. Korn Illegi but. According to executives they only all agree unanimously that the chiefs, the cardinals and the bengals. Would Pass. and. Those teams aren't going to get the number one overall pick anyway. But as we, of course, are closer to the trade deadline. which by the way is November third. and. You know vote and trade. New England patriots according to Albert Career of SL. That, they're thinking about having a fire sell. If they beat buffalo on this it all comes down to Sunday. Because if they beat Buffalo, they're right back in the AFC race. If, they lose to buffalo and go three games under. They're going to look to next year. and. Albert. They would listen to almost anyone. Almost anyone. So far the Patriots have been pretty quiet. But if you think about Stefan Gilmore. He's been speculated as a trade target. and New England did have trade talks. On him before the draft apparently, and then again in camp. And then Gilmore agreed to restructure his contract. And that kind of signaled to some teams that will this go? Moore's last year with the team. I think Gilmore would get a really nice return. he has another season left on that restructure deal. But it's still a seventeen million dollar cap hit next year. More than a million dollars a game. You can also say that he's the top cover man and football. Or one of them he's defensive player of the year. Did you know that three time Pro Bowler? There's also the starting guard Joe, thirty who could be another veteran. He's been floated in and out of trade talks. And that's the thing about these trades. It's like. And we don't expect such from the Patriots normally. The. Patriots. said the other day when I was thinking about Tom Brady, played in the raiders and I just thought Patriots and La. Now he's with the bucks. It's hard to get our heads wrapped around that right now. But when you look at. Trade. That could be going or should be going to work and people you know where can you get help? Like I look at the matchup between the. Raiders, the Browns and Browns apparently. Looking for a safety. teams are looking for if you're not looking for I mean doing your due diligence. I mean, with the Raiders Scott to be all all defense right now. I know the niners will looking for corners one are they not looking for corners almost everybody? Is Looking for defense unless they're looking for that extra weapon. You know if your defense is solid, which not many teams can say then it's like, okay who is that guy that can really help our offense? You look at a guy like David Jokue The the tight end from Cleveland if you need to you look at. Marvin, Jones. Of the Lions. I still say Ryan Fitzpatrick the cowboys why that hasn't happened yet. I have no idea they're going to go with the NUCCI will fuller. The Texans wide receiver has been floated out there. When you look at Maybe A. Guy. Like a Golden Kate I. Mean He's ancient. Would he helped put your team over the top? He's the things that I think you gotta look at. Shawn McCoy. shady McCoy's name voiced again. Someone who could really help at this point? But like there's some teams. Like you have to figure out what you do. Look look at Washington now. They don't have a name and they don't have a quarterback Kyle. Allen. Is Their best guy. We saw how well he played when Newton went down last year for the Patriots until he didn't. He didn't throw an interception like its first four or five games carlisle and their quarterback, and they have Alex Smith who almost had gangrene. And had lost his leg literally maybe even died from those infections. Thankfully didn't what a story? You DWAYNE Haskins number fifteen overall pick. A couple of years ago. They don't know what they're doing. I know that I saw some Washington's like we need more wide receivers I. I don't think that's the issue right now. Very Lauren. Who was all? He's done since he was A. Almost. An afterthought of a draft pick out of USC and his first two years is absolutely tear it up. And who's been thrown him the ball. Colt McCoy and. I mean it's just. I don't think that's the issue I know, but I know teams want to be proactive. No one wants to be a seller, right because that's waving the white flag. Speaking. Of the white sox number that they did with Caruso, the shortstop to the giants and all that. It's like. We. Gave Up. We're only two games out. Like, you have to know when you're. GonNa go. I, saw rumor in Philly that the jets are going to try and get all Sean Jeffrey. Why? Why So Sam darnold control to somebody else let you gotta think about next year don't don't go out and get old wide receivers and give up picks. The jets I wouldn't even gave you. A fifth round pick six or seven, just hold onto your picks prior not to make those traits I'm right to it'll come up. Hey I'm andy if you don't know me, it's probably because I'm not famous but I did start a men's grooming company called Harry's the idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades most brands were overpriced over designed and out of touch at Harry's our approach is simple. Here's our secret. We make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars. Each we care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like world class German, Blade Factory. Obsessing over every detail means we're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made the switch to Harry's. So thank you if you're one of them and if you're not, we hope you give us a try with this special offer. Get a Harry starter set with a five Blade Razor waited handle Shave Gel and travel cover offer just three bucks plus free shipping just go to Harrys. Dot. COM and enter five, five, six, zero at checkout. That's Harrys Dot com code five, five, six, zero. Enjoy. Attention timeshare owners. This is an urgent consumer or from a timeshare exit hotline a National Company specializing in helping consumers legally get out of their expensive timeshare contracts. We're offering you a way to legally get rid of your timeshare. So if you're fed up with the maintenance fees that keep on coming and what if you can terminate your timeshare legally and permanently call today even if you've tried before and we're unsuccessful in getting rid of your timeshare call today. And see if we can help, we offer complete one, hundred percent unconditional client satisfaction guarantee make this completely free call and learn how we can help. You legally put it in to your timeshare nightmare once, and for all, you have nothing to lose. So call right now to qualify and receive a free consultation eight, hundred, eight, seven, one, six, seven, eight, hundred, eight, zero, seven, one, six, seven, that's eight, hundred, eight, hundred, seventy, one, sixty, seven paid for airtime media. Airlines have just reduced their prices even more thirty days in advance and save big want the absolute lowest prices on your airline tickets. Then call the low cost airlines travel hotline right now for prices so low, we can't publish them anywhere. The only way to access our low rates and save up to seventy percent is to call save hundreds on your vacation tickets by calling right now, you can fly anywhere in the world. And paid discount prices on your airline tickets. Booked a flight today to London Paris Madrid or anywhere. Else you want to go and pay a lot less guaranteed call the international travel department right now at low cost airlines eight, hundred, seven, five, four, four, five, three, one, eight, hundred, seven, five, four, four, five, three, one, eight, hundred, seven, five, four, four, five, three, one that's eight, hundred, seven, five, four, forty, five, thirty, one. To go to the air, he's back fast deep to the end zone. Cutters. Hit Him in the by Willie Brown. and. Connors and bomb passed and the raiders stop the chargers without sex without even three on that Dr. Who Cares about anything else when you've got rick tittle on the radio. Tol Abolish one eight, hundred, eight, seven, play. All right. Let's take a look at the national. Football. League showing. Morning Games on Sunday. The bills and morning games on Sunday. Bills on the Patriots. mentioned. The Patriots are two and four on the bills are five into, and this will be up there. Is Still Rich Stadium. Yeah. The bills would always get up for these Patriot games even when they stunk, but they're the better team. And Cam Newton got benched jared stood him. I just don't see a Patriot team rising up and winning the game. The Buffalo. Dolphins host the rams. kind of a weird one, this will be in Miami the rams at five and tune the dolphins are at three and three. and. Sad to say it was Ryan Fitzpatrick under center I would probably pick the dolphins. to is going to have some growing pains and with Aaron Donald. Breathing down his neck I think the rams win that game on the road. The lions will be hosting. I almost said the Baltimore Colts. It's been awhile I know. Still saying it. The Detroit Lions will host the colts the lions are. A surprising three and three. And the colts our foreign to and I like the Lions at home at Ford Field. Both these teams wound up four and three on Monday morning. The, bengals will be hosting the titans in Cincinnati. bengals one, five and one. With a lot of people crying their way off the team. And the titans are very steady at five on one and a pound pound pound that ball. And it's going to be too much. Cincinnati Tennessee wins that one. Radius will be on the road. To CLEVELAND. and. This is getting into the nitty gritty. Now, this would be another AFC loss, the raiders if that happens. And that would put the browns up at six and to. The raiders would be. Looking at next year three and four not officially. But. Look like it. as I was saying earlier in the show to Charlie I think Kareem Hunt. It was nuts in this game and I think there's going to be zero pass rush on Baker Mayfield who will throw three or four touchdowns. I save forty, two, seventeen think the raiders not only lose this game they get blown out. I hope I'm wrong. The packers and the Vikings, the old black and blue division, the old rivals up their. Great Lakes regions. It's now what it used to be. At lambeau. The packers at five and one the Vikings at one and five, and they might be thinking about moving on from. cousins at this point packers win that one. Now. I. Don't remember seeing spread this big in a long time but the chiefs host the jets superbowl champs in Kansas City against the worst team in football. Six hundred versus and seven. Respectively, the line is nineteen and a half points. I WANNA grab that number so bad but I would feel like such a soccer. I would feel dumb, not taking it. All feel dumb I feel that every day I feel it every segment have the things I say dumb but I don't WanNa feel like a sucker. And if I put money on it shots. I deserve to have that money not just taking on my wallet but thrown out of my hands on the freeway and burned. I won't do it. Another morning game, the steelers, and the Ravens this'll be in Baltimore, and this is really one of the best matchups of the week and Lamar Jackson and Co. remember they are only losses the Kansas. City. This would be a massive when in that division for the steelers. But the Ravens win, they can tie it back up. I'M GONNA go ahead and take Baltimore on this one for both teams to be six and one. Sunday night. Into the afternoon games AFC west matchup between a couple of teams. Rebuilding. broncos and the chargers, and it should be Justin. Herbert versus drew lock we know drew lock is banged up. So. This'll be at mile high. Where the broncos are a little bit tougher nut to crack down on the road. But I'M GONNA go with the chargers in this one I really liked. What Herbert the Kit Oregon. Is Doing and neither of the teams are that great but the chargers are better and they went on the road. Bears and the saints if you look at this and you say, Oh my Gosh, the bears are five and two at soldier field saints are foreign to I. Think the bears. are a little bit of a Charlatan team. and. They are trending down and Nick foles been playing terribly offense can't score any points of only scored light. What three points last two games I think the saints go up there and win that game. At soldier field. The seahawks, the niners. This is another biggie. This'll be up there at at Seattle. And Century Lincoln thing called the seahawks are five and one in the niners are foreign three. The niners went through a little bit of a bumpy. Patch. Acropolis. Healthy. Again. Going to be a tough game I, think Seattle Wednesday, but they went up by field goal. That would leave the niners at four and four and last place. Eagles on the Sunday night game will be hosting the cowboys and these are two teams that are shells of themselves. Especially, the cowboys with now Prescott and getting humiliated last week the eagles I say that only because they were super bowl champs is a couple of years ago but Carson Wentz healthy and I think Carson Wentz is going to have a very fun day. As the Eagles will take a real grip with two hands the Kung Fu grip. They will get a vice-like grip on that division when they win and go three foreign one. Cowboys, here's the thing if they win to go three and five, they are right back in it. They are believe it or not. There right back in this thing. Because that division, the NFC least. Is a joke, and then Monday night football talk more about it than it's a bit of a match. Mismatch. But not much of a match up I. Guess I was trying to say, mash, up. The buccaneers are going to be on the road to the giants. The giants do have a single solitary win the buccaneers were five and two coming off a very impressive win at Vegas and Tom Brady on national TV everybody loves him check him out I. Think Obviously, that would be the. That would be the one right there. One Eight, hundred, eight, seven, a play, one, eight, hundred, eight, seven, eight, seven, five, two, nine, and by the way Dak Prescott who's always been a team player in my mind this is the guy that. cast the seconds between is apartment and the. Fields there in Plano or they have practice. And Dak Prescott at this point can't do anything on the field and he was forced to watch Andy Dalton suffer concussion from. On bostick last week. But Bendon Uchi will make his first. NFL, start. And this is just six months after being A. Seventh Round Pick. And Dalton has not practiced out all. Though it looks like unless it's a game time decision, it will be him into new. She told the media yesterday. Actually saw Jack yesterday. Before we were going to practice. He's in great spirits I. ended up, walked up to him and said, Hey, this isn't what you said. My rookie year was GONNA be like. Laughed and gave me a hug and said, we've talked about this go out there and do you. Hake completions. Rust the guys around you you'll be great. Don't over think it football's football. And so the she said it's a game I've been playing since seventh grade. are going to try to make it any more than it is and have fun with it. Bring a lot of energy bring a lot of confidence I. let my place speak for myself. Well. You took the first team Repsol Week. And, teammates have been saying Nice things. Michael Gallup said he's been slinging thing he's been good comes up. After every every period that we've got and he's just like my job is actually pretty easy. I've discounting a Gallup Mark Cooper and CD lamb the ball and let y'all go and do the work. It's not that hard. What's been good. Knew he had a canon for an arm, but it's just now catching it. He's got a little speed up under that ball gets on you quick. It's just something that you gotta get used. Yeah and they said this is a transfer who ended up at James, Madison and I. All those record books said, he was worth a seventh round picks they liked them. Love them, but they liked him. And So yeah. You know he said Gallup said it's got that. Swagger comes in the huddle he's got that deep voice. NUCCI is the NUCCI he's a good kid to be around. Going to do good things for us. The new. She said I'm just being me being a quarterback got to have a little something to you got to have confidence. Have A. Whether you're a veteran, you're fifteenth year or rookie about to make your first start. Just gotTa go on there and be the same guy. I've always been whether it's this he goes on and on and on Mimi me be me do you just be me just me me Blah Blah Blah well. Learning curve coming into the NFL. Is Extreme. We know that is that all top levels of sports it's like same major league pitching but. The odds are severely stacked against the NUCCI remaining upright. Against that Eagles on seven. and. He's going to have to deploy that escape ability as much as he does that arm just to avoid energy an injury considering book. Back Prescott an Andy Dalton pro bowl veteran wide receivers could not avoid getting hurt. Which means that he has to go through his reads. While his pocket is collapsing around him. Now. He was sacked three times in twelve snaps against the redskins. And Zack Martin is supposed to come back. But think about that he's taken twelve snaps in the NFL and he was sacked. Every third snap. But, he said this is an opportunity of a lifeline for seventh-round pig blah blah blah. Week Eight, he's the starter for the Dallas Cowboys. All right. Good for him artillery. We'll take a quick break come on back on by now. Have you written a book you can become a published author with dorrance publishing the nation's. Publishing Services Company countless authors have trusted dorrance for nearly a hundred years to bring their book to the market are professional team will editor text design your book pages and create an appealing eye-catching custom cover lost our authors benefit from accustomed promotion marketing campaign that make your book available where people buy books like Amazon and brick and mortar bookstores. So make this free call right now to claim your free author's Guida publishing don't wait. Another day take one step closer to realizing your dream of becoming a published author and seeing your name imprint. You've already written a book. So the next thing to do is make this free call right now to the publishing and get your free guide to publishing call right now eight, hundred, four, eight, five, six, zero, zero, three, eight, hundred, four, eight, five, six, zero, zero, three, that's eight, hundred, four, eight, five, six, zero, zero, three. Okay I just need you to listen to me. I know that a lot of times mom it might not seem like I'm listening to you but I am I hear you. And what you save really doesn't matter to me I mean, let's be honest. No Kid likes rules but I get why we have them. I hear you and I know it's because you care all the talks we've had over the years including what you've told me about not using alcohol and other drugs they stick with me and believe it or not. They really do make a difference especially at times that matter months. Drink nothing. Some good. So thank you. For talking and preparing me for what's ahead thanks mom never giving up and always being my biggest fan. Thank you for letting me know what you expect. So I can try to meet your expectations. For more information about talking with your kids about underage use of alcohol and other drugs visit underage drinking, dot samsa Dot Gov. Most of us like to be out in the sunk, that's why sunscreen and other safety measures are key to protecting your skin from eighteen in cancer. The FDA recommends using sunscreen with a sun protection factor or SPF fifteen or higher. Also look for broad spectrum on the labeled that means both harmful ultraviolet a and B raised of blonde UV rays age this skin you'll be raised burn and both cause cancer, but the perfect sunscreen doesn't. County use it wrong don't need sunscreen on a cloudy day wrong. Eighty percent of you race still get through the Hanes only use sunscreen at the beach. nope. Anytime you're outside you be raised attack skin. So you need protection and you have to reapply sunscreen every two hours remember SPF plus broad spectrum healthy funding the sun visit www dot FDA dot gov slash sunscreen for more information a message from the US Food and Drug Administration. It doesn't really matter. I like my job and I don't think I'm GONNA go anymore. Name. Rick tittle things. There's a direct correlation between dogs enlightening. I do think some dumb stuff. There's no doubt. Welcome back to the show. Twitter. From sports insider DOT COM. They use that to find out who the most hated teams in the NFL are. Once again, Star sports inside dot com took Gio tag twitter data. You figure it out. and. It's interesting when I look through the map. because. The niners are hated in Hawaii. Montana Idaho Oregon and Washington the most. seahawks and the most hated in California and Arizona that sheaves. Some reason. UTAH. And Vada the raiders are hated. In these goofy landlocked states Nebraska Kansas. Wyoming, and Colorado is all because a donkey fans obviously Texas or Dallas fans. The Eagles are the most hated in new, Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. The Rams and the most hated in Missouri, I guess 'cause they left Saint Louis Green Bay packers most hated in the DAKOTAS. Wisconsin. Illinois Iowa. Michigan The bears are most hated. In Wisconsin. And then. It's interesting as you go along because you'd think will. You know where the Patriots the Patriots, the most hated in the state of New York and state of Delaware steelers are the most hated Kentucky Ohio Indiana Tennessee. Connecticut. And Rhode Island and Maryland. And then the jets are the most hated. In Maine Massachusetts, New Hampshire and New York. Falcons are hated in Fifth Alabama. And A. Louisiana and South Carolina. The saints in the most hated in Georgia and then North Carolina. And the Patriots are the most hated in. Florida, by the way, the Cleveland browns squeeze in. Some reason most hated team in West Virginia. All right. Thanks didn't end. We'll see Monday morning. We don't have brain damage. Always meets road. Actually. I'm not even sure what that means. Speed Radio Network live at hotlinks newsfeed dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by. Follow us on facebook twitter and. Numbers keep rising on Lisa Brady Fox News, the record amount of early voting in the US about to hit eighty four million in some areas more than the total vote in two thousand sixteen just as the number of corona virus cases in the US hits nine million with nearly two hundred, twenty, nine, thousand, dead. That's what you Biden continues to focus on accusing the president of ignoring the pandemic, the Democratic nominee making three stops today including an Iowa, oxes Garrett. Tenny is there are feeling optimistic for a couple of reasons including recent polling shows Joe Biden running in a virtual tie with president despite president trump having won Iowa. By nine points in two thousand Sixteen Democrats also feel like they have a bit of momentum going into this election because of the results of the twentieth eighteen midterms when Democrats flipped two of Iowa's congressional seats, the trump campaign isn't taking any chances here either yesterday vice, President Mike Pence held a rally here in Des Moines to get supporters excited in make sure they get out and vote and Biden criticizes the president for holding large rallies during pandemic. But President Trump continues to highlight it as a positive reject the biggest crowd in the history of politics and I think you will all be switches to that there's never been. Anybody that has ever had bigger graduate more enthusiasm than we. He's also visiting three Midwestern states today before beginning a closing blitz through ten states in earthquake between Turkey and Greece in the agency is now blamed for at least fourteen deaths, hundreds of injuries, collapsed buildings, and flooding in Western. Turkey and the Greek island of Samos just getting word that actress Laurie Lachlan as reported to federal prison for her two months intense the college admissions cheating scandal, and an all clear given at UNC after an alert on the chapel, Hill campus over reports of a possibly armed person nearby no reports of anything found America is listening to. Another part of the Cares Act Corona virus relief passed by Congress earlier, this year is expiring soon and it means millions of students will have to start making loan payments again on January first, the clock starts ticking again on as many as twenty two, million borrowers with direct federal student loans. Advisers say start planning to repay that money now and the smart move restarting payments early since interest on your debt has been paused to and. Payments now go entirely to your balance if you've lost job or other income and can't make those payments, ask your lender for an income based repayment plan. Fox businesses. Jerry Willis talks between the House Speaker and Treasury chief on a new relief package Shapiro of stalled. Again as both sides blame the other meantime Senate majority, leader Mitch McConnell says a new aid package should be considered early next year he proposed to smaller targeted versions that were. Blocked by Senate Democrats as not enough the US Healthcare System Under Attack In cyberspace hospital systems that are already pushed to the limit. Some are seeing a rapid rise in Cova cases and now they're dealing with the threat of the personal and private information of the very patients that they are trying to treat a come under threat. We're having that information a locked up and then held for ransom by cyber criminals this has been happening for. Weeks. Several hospital systems across the US already reported these problems, the FBI and two federal agencies. Say they currently have credible information of a wide an imminent cybercrime threat to US hospitals and healthcare providers. Investigators have named the ransomware riot, which is believed to be used by a russian-speaking criminal gangs Laura ingalls so far no indication they're motivated by anything other than profit a selloff on Wall Street the Dow is down three hundred points I'm the. STAMPS DOT COM brings the post office and UPS Shipping Rights Your computer go to stamps dot com to start a four week trial plus free postage in a digital scale with Promo Code Fox that stamps dot com click on the microphone at the top of the page and type in Fox. and Big Tech has become a propaganda on like they used to be a propaganda arm of the Communist Party for USA radio. News. I'm Timberg. Not Too long ago. It felt good to withdraw your cash from the bank. Didn't it for a vacation or a new car but today withdrawing your own cash has become risky Pat Boone here for swissamerica according to the secret war new Swiss America White Paper. I learned that all banks are now required to spy on you and me for the government and Then report any financial behavior deemed suspicious or unusual. You must read the secret war. It's free truth is I believe the government's new war against cash is really a war against us all, but the secret is now out. So please get and read the secret war, pick up your phone and call right now eight, hundred, nine, three to five, five, one, seven. Eight hundred nine three to five, five, one, seven once again. That's eight, hundred, nine, three to fifty, five, seventeen. By from San, Francisco Sports, byline broadcasting network you're listening to wrestling observer live with your hosts Bryan Alvarez and Mike. Semper V.. Let's get it. Going everybody Bryan Alvarez here on wrestling observer live. We're here every day Monday through Friday new three eastern Sundays Three Pacific six eastern. Hello to all of our which homeys. Sports byline broadcasting very, very busy day today as always put today actually is more busy than usual because as I look at all of the news, we gotta talk about here today. I have no idea how we're GONNA get through it all but just a quick look here we've got the wwe twenty twenty third quarter revenue report being out we've got Vince McMahon talking about how the writing is. Great. Everything is cool. We've got called notes from the deal Vince McMahon Docu series in the works. By Netflix, it is being produced by. WWe As, well as bill, Simmons. So I can only imagine. This Vince McMahon Docu series, we've got the situation with all of the WBZ's stars twitch apparently AJ styles. Alastair Black. Selena, Vega me a year to sorrow boom boom boom all of these accounts shutting down I. Guess There is a meeting today. It's either gonNA. Take place soon or will be taking place soon or is already taking place but. They've been trying to change his mind. You know it is when it comes to vince his mind he changes his own mind. But. You CAN'T CHANGE HIS MIND We'll tell you about all of that. The AWA INEX-. Viewership numbers from Wednesday I don't like to be that guy that says I told you so but if you listen to the show yesterday already told you the numbers because I called it exactly as it was going to. Jake Hager had another live anime fight on youtube for Bella tour. For some reason, he wasn't even on the main show, but give you the results of his fight Matt riddled no longer has a first name. We'll tell you what his last name is. Emily WS restart.

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Democracy Now! 2018-11-19 Monday

Democracy Now! Audio

50:58 min | 2 years ago

Democracy Now! 2018-11-19 Monday

"This is democracy. Now when you when you report fake news now when you report fake news CNN does a lot. You are the enemy of the people. Neil. And I am not so bright. All. President Trump launches an unprecedented attack on the press. We turn to another world leader cracking down on the media. Philippines. President Rodrigo do Turkey. Who's attempting to shut down rap ler leading independent news site that has helped to expose his deadly war on drugs in the Philippines. We'll speak with the site's founder, and editor renowned Filipino. Journalists. Maria wrestle. Organization and Philippine democracy are struggling to survive. We've written a lot about hard to battlefronts brutal drug war. Tens of thousands killed and the exponential lies on social media that incite he and stifle free speech. But I is the death toll from California's deadly campfire continues to rise nearly thousand people remain missing we traveled to a California prison camp to speak with the hidden heroes. Combat the massive wildfires prisoner firefighters. L much money dollar out. When you're finding. Fighting fire dollar. What do you think of? I don't think I think we should make a course I will say I would anybody got a job. You would think you should make more. Is this modern day slavery all that and more coming up? Welcome. Personnel dot four. The Warren peace report. I'm Amy Goodman. The death toll from the devastating campfire in northern California has risen to at least seventy seven is the number of missing people jumped to nearly a thousand the wildfire by four the deadliest most destructive and California's history as now sixty five percent contained after scorching close to one hundred fifty thousand acres in southern California. The Wolsey fire which cope three people is now almost ninety percent contained after burning close to one hundred thousand acres as air quality monitors ranked parts of California as the dirtiest in the world, many low wage workers including form workers along with poor or residents and homeless populations are unable to leave or remain indoors and have been forced to breathe in the toxic air. With little means of protection. President Trump toward the devastation around the decimated town of paradise Saturday with governor Jerry Brown, governor elect Gavin. Newsom? You don't really see the gravity of it. I mean. I mean as big as they look on the tube. You don't see what's going on until you come here. And what we saw at pleasure. What are they right now? But what was your saw? We just left pleasure. Eric heard powerless, and what we saw at paradise is just. Just not acceptable. That was President Trump mistakenly referring to the city of paradise as pleasure Trump who initially threatened to cut funding to California reiterated his attack on forest management after his visit to paradise though he did grant California's request for federal funds. Trump who is a climate change denier said California should follow the lead of Finland by raking and cleaning its forests with the president of Finland that he said we have. What's different? We're far station. They called it a forest nation. They spent a lot of time breaking cleaning and doing things they don't have any problem. Trump's comments appeared to Baffoe Finland's president who told a Helsinki newspaper. He didn't remember discussing raking forests with Trump during a meeting earlier this month. Trump's comment drew ridicule on social media spawning. The hashtag make America rake. Again, this comes as the media monitoring nonprofit media matters for America found that national broadcast. News networks mentioned climate change in less than four percent of their coverage of the deadly California wildfires that was broadcast. News outlets include MSNBC and CNN in Florida Democrats have conceded. Both the Senate and gubernatorial races after recounts maintain narrow Republican leads incumbent democratic Senator Bill Nelson of Florida conceded to Republic. An opponent and outgoing governor Rick Scott Sunday becoming the fourth democrat to lose the Senate seat in the midterm election. The Republicans now have fifty two Senate seats with Mississippi heading to a runoff next week democrat Andrew gillum, conceded, Saturday to Republican Ron to scentists and Florida's race for governor. In Georgia Democrat, Stacey Abrams, ended her bid Friday to become the state's next governor and the first black woman governor in the United States Abrahams defeat by Republican Brian. Kemp puts an end to one of the most closely watched and contested races of the midterms. The race was marred by widespread allegations of voter suppression carried out by Kemp who was Georgia's secretary of state until he resigned, just after the mid term elections Abrahams has refused to call Kemp the legitimate winner. During interviews this is from speaking Friday pundits. And hyper partisans will hear my words as a rejection. Of the normal order. You see I'm supposed to say nice things and accept my fate. They will complain that. I should not use this moment to recap. What was done wrong or to demand a remedy? He as leader, I should be stoic in my outrage and silent in my rebuke, but stoicism is a luxury and silence weapon for those who quiet the voices of the people, and I will not concede because the erosion of our democracy is not right Abrams announced Friday, she would be suing the state of Georgia for gross mismanagement during the elections. She also launched the initiative fair fight, Georgia and an effort to continue her fight for election integrity, and against voter suppression in California Democrat, Gil Cisneros has defeated Republican young Kim gaining thirty seventh congressional seat for the Democrats. This narrow win means the traditional Republican strongholds of Orange County has now turned blue it's now entirely represented by. Democrats for the first time in almost eighty years. The CIA has concluded Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, ordered the murder of journalist Jamal kashogi who entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul Turkey, Tober second and was never seen. Again. CIA director Gina hassle was played the audio tape of Kosovo murder while instable last month. But President Trump has said he doesn't wanna listen to the recording quote because it's a suffering tape, unquote. President Trump responded to the as finding Saturday calling them very premature. Well, conceding. It's possible crown prince bin Salman was responsible for co show. She's death. Trump is repeatedly echoed Saudi claims. The crown prince had no knowledge of kashogi chase murder. The State Department said in a statement, the US government has not yet reached a conclusion about the killing secretary state, Mike Pompeo, strong Trump allies, the former head of the CIA this came as a top White House official involve. In US policy toward Saudi Arabia resigned. Friday evening care Ston fountain rose had pushed for tough sanctions against the Saudis in response to kashogi. She's murder your mouth kashogi. She was a Washington Post columnist in Yemen. A hoot the rebel leader said Sunday who the fighters would support a ceasefire of Saudi coalition forces halt attacks last month, the US called for a ceasefire in Yemen as the diplomatic crisis deepened over the killing of Saudi journalists kashogi, she the United States is the largest supplier of arms to the Saudi led coalition which has killed lease fifty seven thousand people since the beginning of two thousand sixteen according to a recent study, and it's brought fourteen million Yemenis to the brink of famine last week house. Republicans quash debate on a resolution that aims to end US military support for the Saudi led war in Yemen in Turkey, fourteen academe ICs activists were detained fr. Over the two thousand thirteen anti-government protests and stumbles as he park they included the board members of Cultural Organization founded by philanthropist, Osman Covelo, he has been held in prison for over a year after he was arrested in connection with a failed coup against president friendship-type air government in two thousand sixteen is still has a certified US-based cleric Fethullah Gulen is responsible for orchestrating the attempted overthrow twelve of the prisoners were released since Friday. Well, one academic has been jailed in another is still being questioned. According to local reports, President Trump said Friday plans to nominate acting EPA chief Andrew Wheeler is the agency's next administrator wheelers of former co lobbyists, and it's been the acting head of the EPA since Scott Pruitt resigned in July. It's an onslaught of financial and ethics scandals. Wheeler has regularly engaged with right wing conspiracy. Accounts on social media and liked racist posts, featuring the Obamas in two thousand thirteen President Trump's coming under fire after he attacked for me navy seal William mcraven who oversaw the US operation that assassinated Osama bin Laden calling him a Hillary Clinton fan and Obama backer during an interview with Fox News Sunday. In addition Trump wonder, why it took so long for the US to find bin Laden telling host Chris Wallace wouldn't have been nice. If we got some have been Laden allowed sooner than that at Meral mcraven has condemned. Trump's attacks on the media saying last year, they present quote, the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime. The White House has vowed to reimpose a ban on CNN reporter Jim Kosta after a judge's temporary. Order to restore his press credentials expires in two weeks. The judge who ruled on the case Friday called out the Trump administration for its decision to ban. Kosta earlier this month is being shrouded in mystery hours after a Kosta clash with the president at a news conference today after the midterm elections. The White House announced the ban climbing it was because it cost of late his hands on an intern. During the press conference, the White House later said the reason for the ban was because he refused to yield to his fellow reporters after video of the appeared event appeared to contradict their original assertion and response to the ruling Friday, President Trump said he's drafting new rules and regulations for reporters at the White House saying people have to behave. He also told reporters, quote, we have to practice decorum. The judge who ruled against the Trump administration is a Trump appointee, President Trump attack, California Democratic congress member Adam Schiff on Sunday misspelling his last name. Trump tweeted, quote, so funny to see little Adam S, C H ITT talking about the fact that acting attorney Jenner. Matt Whitaker was not approved by the Senate. But not mentioning the fact that Bob Miller who is highly conflicted was not approved by the Senate unquote Schiff is poised to be head of the house intelligence committee after Democrats retake control of the house in January. He vowed to take action against acting attorney general Matt Whitaker if he intervenes to halt special counsel, Robert Mueller's probe Schiff also called Whitaker's appointment after the forced resignation of Jeff Sessions unconstitutional in response to Trump's attack shift tweeted, wow, Mr President. That's a good one. Was that your answer to Mr. molars questions, or did you write this one yourself the education department propose new rules Friday that would further Robak the provisions of title nine the federal law that prohibits sex based discrimination at schools. The new rules would severely narrow the definition of sexual harassment diminish the liability of schools and provide additional protect. For those accused of sexual assault or misconduct, potentially allowing them to cross examine their accusers through an intermediary group of so-called men's rights groups, reportedly lobbied education secretary, Betsy DeVos to pass the new rules in Libya. A group of nearly eighty refugees is refusing to leave a dock ship in the Libyan port of Misratah saying they fear torture and imprisonment the refugees were headed to Europe by boat earlier this month before being returned to Libya on November tenth starting a nine day standoff with Libyan authorities Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa director said of the situation the protests on board the ship now docked and Misratah gives a clear indication of the horrifying conditions refugees and migrants face in Libya's detention centers where they're routinely exposed to torture rate, beatings, extortion and other abuse under international law. No one should be sent to a place where their life is at risk. She said in the Strip Israeli forces wounded four. Forty Palestinian protesters Friday weekly demonstrations calling for an end to Israel's blockade of the impoverished Palestinian territory. At least eighteen of the wounded were hit by live rounds fired by Israel snipers. This comes as Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government survived a leadership challenge by right wing party that broke away from his ruling coalition after it said Netanyahu is doing enough was not doing enough to punish Gaza Netanyahu will maintain a one seat majority in Israel's Knesset or parliament in Haiti six people were killed Sunday. Thousands of protesters marched against government corruption in the capital, Port-au-Prince and other parts of Haiti demonstrators are demanding a probe into whether officials embezzled funds from the nearly four billion dollars eighty received from Venezuelan oil subsidy program, many are calling for the resignation of the Haitian president Jovan all moist a UN backed court ruled on Friday that the chimera Rouge committed genocide. Their ruling Cambodian the seventies. To surviving leaders of the chimera Rouge were found guilty of genocide crimes against humanity and war crimes directed against Cambodia's Vietnamese and come slim annuities from nineteen seventy five to seventy nine. The Khmer Rouge led by Pol Pot exterminated up to twenty five percent of the population of Cambodia in India. The powerful cyclone Gajah has killed lease forty five people in damage to one hundred thousand homes after it battered, the coast of southern state of Tomlin do Friday tens of thousands of people took shelter in nearby camps while search and rescue efforts continue and in London thousands of climate activists took to the streets Saturday and the latest action organized by the group extinction rebellion eighty five people were arrested at Saturday's demonstrations, which shut down traffic on five major bridges and central London. Over sixty people have been arrested during protests over the past two weeks with more public actions planned this is one of the demonstrators speaking Saturday. Donald Trump pretty much denying climate change a very. So some of these happen soon demands of extinction rebellion achievable concludes zero net called missions by twenty twenty five and a schism assembly. So we can have a say on the way we were going to change. Very reasonable demands. Some than we've nationally and those are some of the headlines says democracy now democracy now dot org. The warring piece report, I mean, he Goodman as California continues to fight the deadliest wildfire in state history and the death toll from the campfire rises to seventy seven. We begin today's show with the hidden heroes on the front lines of California's raging climate fueled wildfires prisoner firefighters fifteen hundred of the ninety four hundred firefighters firefighters battling fires in California are incarcerated they make a dollar an hour, but are rarely eligible to get jobs as firefighters after their release. According to semester mates, California saves up to one hundred million dollars a year by using prison. Labor to fight its biggest environmental problem. Cal fire reports to person. Firefighters were injured during northern California's wildfire in the first twenty four hours prisoner firefighters are more than four times as likely to be injured than other firefighters this. According to time magazine, which reports that more than a thousand prisoner firefighters required hospital care between June two thousand thirteen and August two thousand eighteen incarcerated firefighters live in forty four low security field camps throughout California, including three camps for women prisoners and one for juvenile detainees. In two thousand seventeen prisoner. Firefighters spent four million hours on active fires in were north of San Francisco to a low security prison or more than one hundred men are imprisoned. We interviewed incarcerated firefighters who just returned from a twenty four hour shift fighting the. Snail fire and Napa county at the time we spoke to them under the closer Valance of prison administrators. I began by talking to some of the officials from the California Department of corrections and rehabilitation. Surge reader on the system. Kent commander important are these fire camps of incarcerated people to fighting fires in California. The firefighters are the backbone of fire. The are do all the toughest silent. There is out there. What's the toughest assignment? Whatever the rest of do usually cut in line where does our Cango. So they give the toughest science. In the worst conditions hundred ten degrees in the middle of the sun carrying wherein to including carrion forty pounds a year. And they have to carry all their food and water for twenty four shift. And it's a tool the whole time. And you're saying they do the toughest jobs big at the toughest. Here's how much they get paid a dollar an hour. So the state is really dependent on these prisoner. Firefighters definitely yes. Make they save a lot of money for the state, you know, about how my I've heard from sixty to one hundred million dollars a year. My name is Tracey Snyder. I'm a correctional captain with CD CR. California Department of corrections and rehabilitation and talk about what happens here. How often do they fight fires? How often are they just here at camp? So obviously fighting fires. It's it's that's unpredictable last year was one of our biggest fire seasons. Twenty fifteen was another big fire season last year. Obviously a fire season la- lasted for somewhere around six to eight months. The Santa Rosa fire the Napa fire. These guys responded to that the Thomas fire down in southern California. Would you call these men heroes? I would yes, they do an excellent job for the state of California. When you see the devastation in Santa Rosa and Napa last year and Mona cdoe down in southern California. The Thomas fire these guys as a sergeant said they're the backbone. They do a great job a great job. And I appreciate them. After the returning firefighters have breakfast. I sit down with a few of them under the watchful eye of person officials on Dont'a Youngblood arcane to camp fourteen months ago. Zeal nine years. How much more time? Do you have to serve more? You talk about the work. You do here. Are you risking your life? Will I guess you could say risking your life? Yes. But but you're not really in life threatening situations. Ninety five percent of the time. You're not in life during situation. You win you'll controlled environment. You know, you know, if you've been doing it for a while, you know, what to do. It's a hard job because we've got a cut line the fire could be right there. And then we'd be in line on fires to stop. If you come in. What do you mean cutting line will we cut along with a MacLeod? What is it a class tools to? Like something like a whole using your garden cut line with or foot line to stop the fire from coming. So you've had the fire as close as like a couple of feet from where we are. Yes. Is it scary? I guess he just get used Houston Li. I started UV scary. Somebody may some of the other people scare you some clue members. But to me, no, it's not just regularly to me to me is readily work. I didn't already program sell to whenever we go. Just goes, it don't even bother me on this. Always just work is work that we do last night. One of the guys fell down the hill. Yes. What happened is is slippery rocks rock sleeper? He just heated fill that bad. It's this was a little fall. You just sprang his ankle some. But I happen do happen. Trees following all of that. Like the last thing what a month ago firefighter died. Three fighter firefighter because the tree fell owning decide goes is gets crazy out there sometimes. But most of the time is we know what's going on. Are you shoulder to shoulder with the Cal fire? Firefighters. Yes, we cut line together. We'd be out there. We don't they don't. We're not split up from new my we're not like brand name mates over here. Nice. Not like that. We just we all out there. Together, we all out there helping each other to walk by one. And I see Cal fire or or any firefighter knee help or something with the holes or something like that because they are hopeless to leave. We all year. He'll be and make sure everybody safe how much money do you make dollar our when you're finding the fire. Yes. Fighting the fire dollar our? So how for example last night? Re you how long were you fighting fire probably twenty something hours. So we'd probably may twenty dollars twenty two dollars twenty four dollars. What do you think of? That will I don't think I think we should make. Of course, I will say I wouldn't anybody got a job. You would think you should make more out. Always always go us getting dollars until I came to fire. You know? You know? Schooled army we make money for something that we would probably do for free. Anyway, just for the time could so it's alright, but I will prefer. Yes, we get more money. Of course, anybody would in the working position will wanna make more money. So you're saving the state to say the least a lot of money some say, it's something like one hundred million dollars a year. I don't know. Of course, Dan, I'm sewer. But I mean, we don't even some people only we look at it. As getting the time to time cut is more din, the money to us we read to make the money for sure because we could still see money to our families. We still see money home. But gave we only make a dollar our own fires. So how old were you? When you first went to prison. I was it was nine years ago. I think I was twenty twenty seven. Do you wanna talk about what happened? Nah. I just made bad choices has being here at the camp. Change your thinking about the world. Yes. I mean, I've. Say of of learned a lot that I can do more in what I used to do that. I can do right. Can do better things in my life indians's commit crime things. Like that. I figured out. I can do a job. I could work. I never I never had a damn while. I I never cashed the chick. Literally. I never catch the tick in my life. I never use the credit card crazy how the sound like I'm from the mountains or something. What made you decide to do this interview? It's the first time you've talked to journalists because I might wanna be actors. I wanna see if I can do it. Series. Plus, I wanted to get our perspective because I know you can hear from the Gore's the news. But did not know a lot of people here. Probably don't wanna do to interviewed. Probably scared are just don't wanna do it. But I'm not doing whatever I wanna do can you can, you know films? Give oh, you know, that's interesting because in Vermont and Maine they vote from jail. No, no can vote in California. Would you like to see that chain? Yes. We can't we can't talk. This is guys. Can't okay? Am voting. Yes. Let me tell you the reason I ask that is that in Vermont at this point in the interview sergeant reader steps into end the conversation with Dante telling us political questions aren't allowed later the command or comes over Lieutenant said Turner the camp commander here. Conservation camp talk about how hard this work is this is fires the are actually out for days straight because the resources within the state were so tapped that it took that long just to get them relieved off the lines, and they just a dollar an hour fighting these fires next to Cal fire. Firefighters that is correct. But and understand there's a big difference between Cal fire firefighters and inmate firefighter. Do you think they should be paid more the prisoners? I believe that they should make more than the dollar an hour. The been at that rate of pay for many decades now at this point in time. So it seems like the state would be threatened. If if people's time was even cut or if as a result of overcrowded, prisons more prisoners were released, of course, they would be the prisoners who had the lowest sentences, and those are exactly the person who get into these kinds of camps. They lose that kind of labor. The firefighting labor potentially very much. So there's definitely a need for this type of resource. The hand crews to go out and cut line and areas aren't acceptable to such as bulldozers and things of that type. So California needs hand crews if we don't have the inmates to perform that function than the gotta find the labor from someplace else surgeon reader, do you think that prisoners should be paid more for fighting fires? Yes. Oh much. California relies on prison labor, particularly when it comes to fighting wildfires came under scrutiny drain the state's labor, the California attorney general at the time was well now US Senator Harris at lawyers and her office argued the case without her knowledge Harris said the idea, of course, rating people as a source of labor evokes images of chain gangs. I sit down with another prisoner who just came back from fighting the snow fire. My name is mardi Vincent twenty five years old. And I came to this camp about mid July this year, what has been the most difficult fire that you've fought I I'll I wanted to say at you'll river when I went to water last year debt water was a pretty bad fire, but the river fire this you had to I think talk because it was the most like. I guess harm's way I've been in. It was a situation where we was back burning and they had this one of our saw teams which was my saw me down with crew three to cut on the other side on the greens aware of there are coming across is still pushed back more to where it just doesn't catch and lead to a point where flair to more than it had to on the fire that was burning. And when it did that jumped the line. So in jump the line mind, you the puller a left out. We carry a Galibier jumped from where it was burning at we're supposed to burn it to the green across the road. And within seconds to hold everywhere. So we had to run as far pretty much down that highway two green again. And then as it continued to burn in the black was there. No safe to go back. We actually had a walk back in there. So just being put in. A bad predicament. Like that's a wear that adrenaline really pumping in you, you try to figure out the best thing to do because possibly your life is on the line. I would wanna say river far this year was the worst one for me. You're risking your life here. It's exactly what's going on everything we do. You know, no one's really promised to come back, and how much do you make a dollar an hour when you're fighting when you're fighting a fire dollar an hour when you're on typical great you make a dollar forty five day. Some of that slave labor. What do you think of that? I don't really wanna call the work sleigh work. But I feel like it's it's their home in Taliban. What they're they're thinking about the end of day. No matter what we're foreign car serrated or we're free. We're getting paid a dollar an hour. Prisoner firefighter, mardi Vince and to see all of our coverage of prisoner. Firefighters you can go to democracy now dot org when we come back. We speak with the renown Filipina journalist Morita Philippine. Music by the late Alice Coltrane and Osram she built in the Santa Monica mountains of California burned down last week and the Wolsey fire. This is democracy. Now democracy now dot org. The Warren peace report, I made me Goodman. We turn now to look at attacks on the press here at home and abroad. The White House is threatening to once again revoke the press pass for CNN's Jimmy Kosta just days after CNN won a temporary restraining order white. House. Officials have told Kosta he'll be suspended again once the two-week restraining order expires Costas initially stripped of his pest pass after questioning Trump during a live televised press conference on Sunday, Trump defended his attacks on the media during an interview on Fox News with Chris Wallace in twenty seventeen last year. You tweeted. This. I want to quote, accurately. The fake news media is not my enemy. It is. The enemy of the American people. One hundred percent, no president has liked his press coverage John Kennedy in your Oval Office canceled this election to the New York Herald Tribune. Nobody called it. The enemy of the American people going to fake news is the enemy. It's fake. It's phony. Dues. You don't know. I don't mind getting bad news if I'm wrong, but cert- leaders and thera -tarian countries like Russia. China has Walea now repress the media. Using your words. I can't talk for other people. I can only talk for me. I will tell you. You're sitting around the world for freshen Nagas lurk. I'm not talking about you. But you sometimes maybe, but I'm not talking about you. The news about me is largely phony. It's falls. Well, President Trump continues to attack the media we turn now to look at another world leader doing the same cracking down on the press and the Philippines president Rodrigo deter taes attempting to shut down the leading independent Filipino news site, the wrap ler, which is published groundbreaking work undertakes deadly war on drugs, which is killed more than twelve thousand. People. Territories repeatedly described the site as a fake news outlet. Fake. Not so bright view. Good of several big Philippines. President to tear Tate describing rap lers fake news outlet saying it's articles are also fake last week the Filipino government. Indicted, Marie arrests the founder of rap ller for tax evasion, and what's widely seen as the government's latest attempt to shut down the website in January the Philippine securities and Exchange Commission. Also revoked rap lers licensed to operate on charges. The websites foreign-owned, even though the website is owned by Filipinos the government, then banned the news website from the presidential palace claiming Detaille had lost trust in the publication and characterize its coverages fake news Tetteh also called reporters to ask him tough questions spies and warned that quote, just because you're journalist you're not exempted from a sassy nation. Well, the Filipino government has attempted to silence Maria wrestle her journalism has been praised around the world last week. She received the two thousand eighteen Knight international journalism award. Our problems are fast becoming your problems boundaries around the world have collapsed, and we can begin to see a kind of global playbook. When President Trump band gym class that last night, he followed president detectors actions against our reporter anada and me I haven't reported, but I'm banned from the palace. Early this year. Of course, when Trump called CNN in the New York Times fake news week later, you saw the video detected called wrap ler fake news. Power corrupts it courses. And collapse. On Tuesday, the committee to protect journalists will honor Maria with it's two thousand eighteen Gwen IFO press Freedom Award here in New York. Marie arrested joins us for the rest of the hour here in our New York studio prior to launching rap ller in two thousand eleven Maria rest so worked at CNN and ABC CBS, welcome to democracy. Now, I met you when we were both covering each team where you work for CNN for close to two decades. You congratulations on your work and. How are you perating right now in in the Philippines? You've also expanded to Indonesia with these relentless attacks by the president of the Philippines, a close ally of President Trump eilly say we hold the line. These are all political attacks against us. They haven't shut us down we continue operating, but we are fighting many cases of six or seven different investigations legal cases, in these cases. Do it's like a war of Trish in. Right. So our legal fees have gone up money that I would have wanted to use to expand rap ler, particularly in this age of looking for new business models looking for new technology solutions, well, all of that is going to legal fees. So maybe that's the only place where our government has succeeded, but we continue to do investigative work, and we continue to expose impunity that is happening at all levels. So you just learned that the Philippine. The government plans to indict you. Yes, I it was actually the within twelve hours of getting the Knight international journalism award. The the department of Justice gave a press release just the fresh release though other documents saying that they would indict me wrap ler end our accountant. And what that means is I could just by being journalist face up to ten years in prison. It is also ludicrous. I mean, I've run out of adjectives for the word ludicrous ridiculous because the basis of this charge is a reclassification of rap ller from a new screw to a dealer insecurities. So there's dealer insecurities. They're saying we owe them taxes because we are a dealer, insecurity. So we evaded taxes because we're now a stock. Brokerage firm, we're not obviously. So again, if the government pushes through with this. Our lawyer Francis limb who's the former president of the Philippine Stock Exchange as ready said there is no legal basis. He's also stated that it would have impact on the markets because we're not the only company that issued this financial instrument. It's called the Philippine depositary receipt. The two largest television stations have it the two telecommunications firms have it. So we'll see, you know, it's I guess we operate with having a Damocles sword hanging over our heads. And I think that's the. That's the intent of the government to make us careful to make us pull back to intimidate us to silence, and I think. President Trump and president detect have many qualities in common the bullying aspect of it the attacking when they don't like what they're what when a mirror is being held up to their faces are responses, not to take it personally and to continue doing the reports and his attack on journalists as spies saying just because you were our journalist, you are not exempted from assassination. I like to think it's hyperbole, but you know, in in October twenty fifteen before president tear tear, John Oliver actually use that clip because it's rare that you will have somebody on camera admit they've killed three people. This is part of his I'm going to use the word charm is both positive and negative ways. The fact that he says things like Trump that you don't expect to come from a leader a politician, and that that gave permission to others to act in the same way. So we've seen an increase for example in sexist statements in misogynistic statements like. I mean on social media. So the impunity with government goes hand in hand with impunity on social media on Facebook. And I've been very vocal about this because in the Philippines, Facebook as our internet ninety seven percent of Filipinos on the internet are on Facebook. And so free basics, you know, everyone can get it on their cell phone. But when you click through to read the news article you have to pay so people don't click through so this whole propaganda machine, which we exposed as early as August of. Die hard supporters known as DDS which actual media to turn the world upside it doubled death squad instead of actually denying it like a like a normal politician would or saying, oh, no I didn't do that the owned it double death squad and then pivoted it. So now it is instead of a negative of the devout death squad killings, it becomes detected die hard supporters. It's pivoted. That's exactly what's happened with the attacks on traditional media on Facebook beginning in January this year, you have there was the survey. Pew global attitude survey said that for people in the real world they actually trust eighty six percent trust traditional media. But for the survey on social media, and this is that the element trust survey for those unsocial Eighty-three percent, distress traditional media. Are they able to do that? It's precisely because of these the information warfare on Facebook. That's happened. It's. To right before detail was elected. He admitted he was linked as you said to the death squad and devouring Philippine speaking become president nothing one become fifty thousand. Kill all of you. He was the made in the lead up to the election and how he worked with. So Facebook's let me start with Facebook. And and wrap ler our partners. We know the best and the worst of what can happen in twenty twelve. We used social media for social good. We helped Filipinos get on Facebook. So it's partly our fault, I suppose long with Facebook. But in twenty sixteen when the anger was used in the campaign, right? So there was a campaign machinery that helped due to win. And then after he won in July of two thousand sixteen when did drug war began that was when it was weaponized and weaponized before. The election. Facebook employees came to the Philippines to work with the candidates and how they can use Facebook absolately. And this is I think something Facebook did not understand did not didn't realize the connection between what they were doing in the virtual world and the real world, but they offered their services to any political campaign and just like in the United States. Trump took it up detected took it up. Right. Another thing that we have in common. Cambridge Analytica the most compromised accounts are here in the United States. The I buy. If you look at what they were able to do, right? That Stephen Olympic came to the Philippines. That is tearing down our democracies the data that we had pulled down because we were in August of twenty sixteen I that to Facebook. And I said this is really alarming. You have to do something about this. We're gonna do a story didn't get any response back at the end of that meeting as a joke. I said, you know. Do you have elections in the United States Trump could win and we all laughed two of the three people. I was talking with Singapore are no longer with Facebook. But in Nevada ver- after Trump won the asked me for the data again. I think it's very different. Now, you know, obviously, they're they're on the hot spot, and they're taking some action still too little too late. But hopefully now that they know it we're pushing very hard for them to do more. So once deter takes the presidency in two thousand sixteen you say, he weaponized Facebook. How absolutely this is taking the campaign machinery, and then using hate that is the pounded on the fracture. You know, it happened. So quickly that we did not understand that we were being manipulated. We came out with our series in October of two thousand sixteen we came out with a three part series propaganda war weaponising the internet. We became the target of attack. And that was when I realized I didn't even realize even while we were doing story how horrific it could get because after we came out with that three part series. We were bombarded and bombarded. I mean, you know, at the beginning, I was still trying to respond to people forget it. They weren't responding back. They just meant to pound me into silence. And so at one point I started counting. How many hate messages? I was getting you were making a database ninety hate messages per hour. And it lasted exactly a month, meaning like payroll a month, and and the this continues, and that is meant to cripple belief truth. Right. One of these messages was I want Marie arrests to be raped her repeatedly to death. Yes. That's that's actually tame compared to some of the other ones. I think this is where they all come together. When people see this it impacts values and the target which is this a middle class that. Really, the vast powers of government, and you combine them some ally told a million times is tax in general. I think in the Philippines. They used Botts alerts and labor so cheap that it's all fake accounts. I mean, even if you look at the Facebook disclosure last year, there's a little footnote that says the Philippines has a higher than average number of fake accounts. One of the. One of the messages one of the more aggressive messages was a fake endorsement by pope Francis. With the words, even the pope admires due Tei beneath the pope's image Catholic Bishops Conference in the Philippines, posted statement. May we inform the public that this statement from the pope is not true? We beg everyone to stop spreading this. But it just became a kind of truth. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's part of the reason that the support well, president has high popularity ratings at one point two eight percent and part of that is because of this groundswell of social media and people can't tell the difference journalism awards in the United States. Stay with us. By no L Caban gun performing the rap ler studios. Ella pains the system outcrcy now. I mean good Melissa continue. Our discussion Marie arrests the founder CEO executive director of rap. Learn a claim Philippine News website. That's been repeatedly attacked Philippines. President Rodrigo details. Week the Filipino government. Indicted, Marie arrests laced announced their intention to indict her for tax evasion. What spied Lee seen as the government's latest attempt to shut down. The website rap ler has helped to expose his deadly war on drugs like to turn to a clip from rap lers impunity series, which documents the drug war in the Philippines and its impacts videos title day of the dead. Cecilia discard are whose daughter Jennifer was killed in October two thousand sixteen. He's been in that. But she said I'm going to stop soon. Now the day of the dead just a clip of your series Maria talk about what you're doing and Philippines in your coverage of the war. I mean just for reference in nine years of martial law under Ferdinand Marcos. There were three thousand two hundred people killed right? So thousand people killed since July of two thousand sixteen but if you go by in January, they carved out a number of people a larger number of people saying they were not drug deaths. They were deaths under investigation if you carve that out you're talking about an additional twenty thousand people killed. So is it twelve thousand is at five thousand twelve thousand which is what human rights groups say to twenty thousand which is what other human rights groups say or thirty thousand the problem is doesn't matter what the number is one should be enough right one. And I think what human rights groups have pointed out is the people who are being killed are the people who are the poorest people who cannot defend themselves in these extra-judicial killings. They don't have a day in court. What if they're wrong what if these are just which hunting lists, which again, we've seen we've done whole impunity series from the eyes of the victims. Their families. And most recently we finished a seven part series from the killers perspectives and the killers we interviewed this took six months to do after you receive these awards, you're headed back to the Philippines. I think Asian trying to figure out what the future of journalism will look like, I'm proud. And I look what we've learned over the years. You get the name. Wrap ler is we made it up wrap from the eighties. Let's talk plus ripple to make waves. We wanted to build communities of action because our our in our country institutions are endemic their endemic corruption and the institutions are weak. So what we wanted to do was stop waiting for government and and help build communities. Bottom up using technology that dream is still there we succeeded at it for up until twenty sixteen and how do you protect yourself? Experience from the past helps. Right. But now what we've done is the first news threat is actually the psychological threat the attacks against the reporters people on the frontline on social media. You have to deal with that. And it's something that is completely new. So we send our social media team. I reporters on the front lines to counseling, but then the counselors also need to learn how to do that.

President Trump president California Philippines Facebook US CNN President Rodrigo Amy Goodman Filipino government Marie Senate America Turkey White House California Department of corre Trump
Effectively using your emotions: Guest  Dr. Ed Daube

James Miller | Lifeology

28:46 min | 1 year ago

Effectively using your emotions: Guest Dr. Ed Daube

"Hi welcome james miller life algae relearned to simplify and transform your spirit mind and body. My name is james miller <music>. I'm a licensed psychotherapist and composer. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Let's get started. I want her to take just a quick moment to thank you all who continually support and listen to james miller life i have been so blessed and honored by your continual support. I wanna make sure that you don't miss out on anything citing. That's happening over here so so make sure you sign up for my free newsletter james miller life allergy dot com aggregrate show for you today. I'm going to give you tools manager emotions defectively. I'll be interviewing dr dhabi who discusses his book beyond anger management master your anger as a strategic tool. He gives you insight in the moment of what to do when you're feeling strong emotions. I've some exciting news. Did you know that i'm on the radio three times a week. You may hear me on the same station on tuesdays at at one thirty pm friday's and nine thirty a._m. And saturdays at twelve thirty pm you may also hear any time on iheartradio as well as an all the other major pod casting platforms including itunes google play stitcher stitcher and many others simply search for the show name james miller life algae. Are you struggling state to find your purpose has mediocrity set in and you. I can't imagine doing the same thing for the rest of your life. Are you relationships struggling are you aren't sure how to make a long lasting changes in your life. Then today. Contact me james miller. I will help you recognize the areas of life like that are going really well and then we'll look at the areas in which you were struggling. We will create actionable solutions to help create long lasting changes in your life. You don't have to do this alone. Go to my website james miller life dot com and click on the page work with james fill out the form and it will be sent directly to me. Don't let another day go by without finding your way. Change can start today once again. Go to my website james miller dot com and click on the page work with james fill out that form to get started today using your emotions effectively and my guest today dr ed dhabi is going to be talking about how to use emotions strategically but in order to be able to use them strategically. We have to know when we're feeling certain emotions so i'm going to teach you today how to practice checking in with yourself so you're constantly have an eternal scan. Go down to the back of your mind. Which gives you clues to win. You're starting starting to feel strong emotions. The more awareness you have the more successful you will be with using these strong emotions and the strategic way that you're going to hear about in just a few minutes. We we all know what strong emotions feel like in the moment. If we were to sit back reflect we can say i'm very angry. I'm very sad. I'm heartbroken. Those make sense to us <music> off. We don't realize that our body is always telling us different things about what we're experiencing. I was like for people to separate between our body is telling us physiologically versus what our bodies telling us emotionally for example right now physiologically. What is your body telling. You is telling you that you're sleepy. Do you have allergies. Do you have a cold today when we can recognize recognize what our bodies telling us physiologically that it helps us separate between what's happening to us emotionally because remember whatever you believe to be true to your thoughts determine what your emotions are grew motions than determine what your body does. That's not the physiological response. That's the emotional response on a scale of one to ten. Ten in the best. You've ever felt in one is the worst you've ever felt. We wanna separate between what our body is physiologically telling us on the scale of one to ten and then what our emotions are telling join us in a scale of one to ten to for example today. I got some really good rest so physiologically on a scale of one to ten. I'm feeling really good. I'm feeling probably about an eight and then emotionally. I'll be honest my computer crashed and so my emotions right now are probably about a five and so with that. I then have to say okay so my body is feeling lean really refreshed. My emotions are a little bit frustrated but i'm okay with that. I can unsafe with my body's feeling really well. Then that means. I can still do all the things that i need to do today. Acking go to the gym. I can hang out with friends. I can continue working all those different types of things i can do. Regardless of how i feel emotionally physiologically i can do all those things <music> now. When you look at your emotions your emotions will often say well. If i wake up depressed or really frustrated or really overwhelmed then that means i have to stay in bed all day that means i have the yell and scream at people and that's not the case at all your body physiologically can do all the things that need to do emotionally you can then choose to do something with those emotions you can choose to be proactive active or react with those emotions so the way to use emotions as a strategic tool and you'll hear about that in just a few minutes but we need to create ways in which we always know what we're experiencing parenting. So what i always tell people to do is to set an alarm on your phone your smartphone. Is there for a reason when you can set an alarm. Let's say every hour or every three three hours when that alarm goes off immediately say all right. Let me check in with myself so scales one to ten one to ten physiologically. How am i feeling and then you'll say we'll one to ten emotionally. How am i feeling and find. The rating for your motions is lower than you and i said well. What's going on with me so if your check in your below five more than likely you're thinking talking about something or something happened that you're carrying over to the next hour to now you get to decide. What am i going to do with that. Do i wanna feel this way. So i want to change it. It gives gives you a proactive way to catch yourself before. All these things build up and then you explode or you respond in a way that you're not happy about so this is a really good way to proactively manager motions in separate between what physiologically feeling and how your body responds emotionally your emotions always have a physical expression and the actions that you have so when you can proactively be aware of what what is your experiencing. You can figure out what you're going to do with it. When you practices simple tool the more you will be in control of your thoughts. Your emotions and higher body responds then you can use your emotions as strategic tool. Did you know i have a youtube channel. That's actually we started. I have well over one hundred and fifty five episodes and i've created specifically for you. I do know that many people struggle with listening to a full thirty minute show so these episodes are bound three minutes long each episode. We'll give you a practical practical tool or technique that you can practice daily to help you simplify and transform your spirit mind and body simply go to my website james miller lite follow dot com or go to youtube and search for my name james miller life allergy algae dr ed dhabi is a professor of psychology and the author of to amazon selling books his first book emotions as tools introduces reduces. The emotions is tools model. It includes specific emotions of anger anxiety fear sadness guilt and shame his most recent book beyond anger management focuses primarily on the import emotions chains of anger dr w is best known for making difficult topics such as emotions both useable and understandable welcome to my show well. Thank you very much for having me james. I'm looking forward to the the interview yes. I'm looking forward to it as well. We're definitely going to be talking about your book beyond anger management but i do want to touch a little bit on your first book emotions this tool so a lot of things to cover today before we get started. I want to find out how did you become a doctor of psychology. That's that's an interesting question. I basically fell the indus psychology and it was almost it was almost accidental when i went to. I did my undergraduate at u._c. Berkeley and i was a pre med major and i also was it double major in economics and i thought if i if i don't get into medical school then i can go into law go into business and one summer. I got a call from a cousin of mine who was talking to me about a camp back in upstate new york for quote exceptional children. It was a real misnomer that i know now but i didn't know it so i went back there to this camp and the young woman this is before i was married. The young woman i was interested in was assigned to the autistic kids and so because i was spending time with her i was spending time with them and i got really interested in the subject of of autism in psychology and i went the psychologist at the camp and asked him questions and i was done with a camp i went back to berkeley and i didn't get into medical school so i went to the psychology department. Talk the secretary into raving my lower division courses. I have taught psych one but i never took it. Oh neat apply to graduate school in got in an and that's how i got into psychology. It was accidental. I hate to admit this now. I think it's great. I really liked to story because it's it is a random serendipitous refer to as moments in our life which really do changes we can look back of course and laugh about it but at that moment we didn't realize that oh my gosh i got this phone call. I heard about this camp all of a sudden. I'm working with these kids and now here i am. I'm in a completely different field and why originally started so. I always love to hear those stories everything concerning that. Everybody has such a different version of how they got to where they are today. Let psychology is is really where i should have been. It was the field that is perfectly matched with my personality in the way i deal with people so it was serendipitous but it was perfect for me yes and and then you worked as as as a senior psychologist juvenile division of california department of corrections. Tell us a little bit about that. My first job out of graduate school was with the california born within called the california youth authority. It's now to california department of corrections juvenile division and i was hired basically to do evaluations so i did psychological evaluations and then there was a psychiatrist who did psychiatric so forth we are evaluations were to go to the youth authority board who had to decide side how much time to give these these youth and whether or not to let them go so that's what i was doing and i did that for about three years and then a position opened up on these a specialized counseling program and i went over there and my specialty was e- testing and evaluation it wasn't therapy so i get over there and now i'm in a situation nation where i have to communicate with young women who all have his histories of of severe abuse physical emotional sexual this whole nine yards right and i don't have the language in order to be able to communicate with these folks in a therapy situation because my language is graduate schooling and their language guage is basically high school education or below and street yeah and so i'm figuring how am i gonna teach these young women's about emotions because they didn't know how to deal with them. They either hurt themselves. They hurt other people which is why they were there and so i had to develop a metaphor in order to talk to them about feelings ellings and that was the emotions his tools model everybody. Everybody knows about tools whether it's your computer whether it's your your remote remote control on your t._v. Or it's your phone or or even getting into a car. A car is a tool and you have to if you don't learn to master that tool who'll then you can't use it if you don't learn how to drive a stick shift and the only car the you have access to which happened to me by the way you don't know how to drive standard shift. You're out of luck. You learn how to master the tool. I really liked that i think i think it's a different spin on things because i think sometimes people think oh. I have to do some in a perfect way to do this and sometimes don't realize that whatever you have just like you're saying with your emotions. That's something you have regardless and with that people try and deny certain things or or try and say i should never do this then we are not using a tool which could be cut a reframed into something else which can help us then you something effectively that's exactly correct and i and the emotions is tools model work not only with the young women i i was seeing in therapy but also worked with a staff because now i was asked to train correctional staff and these these folks police as well which i've also worked. They have a different mentality. They tend to be very concrete. What's the problem. How do i fix it and why i can't fixed yeah and why can't it be fixed and don't ask me to mess to deal with all these messy stuff like emotions. Well excuse me officer but you got him and they're going to affect you where you deal with them or not. Yes you might as well learn how to deal with them. And here's a model you can relate to because your emotions whether it's anger or it's anxiety or whatever it happens to be. He is simply a tool that you can learn to master the same way you learn to master not youth the use of of tear gas or use your baton. It's the same process. It's just a different focus exactly and i really liked that. Were definitely expounded that in just a second. Is that how you became known as the emotions doctor yes yeah i. I had to figure out a way how i was going to identify myself and that's what i came up with. There's street cred secret which is also so very interesting because when i was a kid i was the emotions avoid her <hes> and the if you don't want me to go and i got to the emotions are well. Here's the process when i was a kid. Emotions were not dealt with well in my family at all when my mom died. My dad came up to me of course for his generation generation it was you don't show emotions. He's crying because his wife of fifty years is just died and he's apologizing to me crying. Oh no okay yeah well. I mean we dealt with it but that's that's where i came from so emotions were not dealt with so again into graduate school and i'm still dealing with things in my head dealing with things cognitively and i did a a friend of mine in in san francisco because i did my my internship napa state hospital here in california a a friend of my parents my next door neighbor was the director clinical director of a place called henry olaf house and it was a treatment program for addicts alcoholics addicts and and so forth so i love this guy and i say ken. Would you mind if i sat in on your groups and he says no. You can't oh okay but then he says but what you can do is you can be a participant observer. Oh okay okay. He's a cake. I'm a p._h._d. Psychology i can handle this yeah. That's that's what i thought six months into the roof. The focus groups say you know what ed you are a non drinking alcoholic how interesting you're saying yeah well because what i did is i covered up my emotions and do not suppress them suppress them by going into my head. How so i built up this this wall that protected me and they saw through it and it's hard. It's interesting as a clinician myself when you have you know whatever setting your end we usually present ourselves a certain way when we're in a professional setting and then to have people that may be see through that we're not expecting. We're like whoa. I'm blindsided at. This is a huge revelation. I didn't see it so i'm sure that really changed your worldview really even your your your personality and had to go through that introspective time of wait a minute. I didn't realize a huge blind spot here totally totally so so then i started my first job which we talked about and now i'm working being with these young women and i remember how i put my emotions down and i need to help them deal with their emotions and so i went through that whole process that we talked about earlier and developed a model and then i retired after thirty two years working with the youth authority and so now i'm retired and i'm thinking i don't wanna do private practice and yet. I still think i has something to offer people. Yes it is so why don't i write a book and so that was my first book and i did some. I did some speaking issues around emotions as tools and the model and then i thought okay so i need a brand so let's call myself the emotions doctor and after i got over the initial shock because i know where i came from. I know where i am and that's how i got the emotions doctor i love it. That's a great story once again. It's so neat how all these things kind of fall fall together fall into place rather to create today. Let's focus specifically on your book. Because i wanna talk about your book beyond anger management master your anger as a strategic tool help us understand how anger can be used as a strategic tool in order to understand that you need to understand the the emotional process and we and we all go through this weary weary relate now to emotions the same way we did when we lived in caves <hes> and when we lived in caves what we did is we scan environment we looked for threat and our body then automatically put us into threat mode to deal with threats and that was fine back then because everything was a survival threat today we don't deal with survival threats like sabertooth tigers. Most of our threats are psychological threats. We have to deal with with people at work disrespect as we have to deal with traffic that we we we don't we were stuck in so anyway so we everybody constantly scans their environment and when you perceive a threat fasttrack message goes to the amiga which automatically automatically put your body into fight or flight. You're ready to fight the threat now. A slower track message goes to and this is where your three year three second process by the away james sure us lower track message goes to the cerebral cortex which is the thinking part of your brain which enables you now to step back and say what's going on now. Every emotion has a message and when you understand the message of the emotion that gives you the ability to master that he moesha's the message of anger is as i perceive a threat that i believe i am stronger than and that. I can overpower if i throw enough force at it. Which is why you see people when they get angry. They're ready to go to war <hes> they're ready to go to battle and then when they do that they then do things they later regret. Yes okay so nephew understand that. The message of anger is as i perceive a threat now you have the ability to then step back which is part of the emotional process to step back and say wait a minute. What what is the nature of the threat that i perceive is it a real threat. Am i in fact is is my life being threatened or my basic goals being threatened. Whatever whatever happens to be so now you can make a choice when you use anger as a strategic tool agent says i am taking the situation and i am applying this tool ooh to master to deal with that situation. That's how you strategically saying. What do i want to accomplish in this situation. And how can i use this tool to do it so when you understand that anger you perceive a threat you now can look at that threat if it is indeed a real threat then you use the energy that your anger anger has provided you because you're ready for battle. Yes and choose how you want to respond. This is also something you teach by the way you teach respond not react yeah exactly and i think that's one of the most important things is because that energy has to go somewhere the energy of this fight or flight or you know you perceive to be harmful harmful for you or there's something you can overcome with your anger and then all of us your body creates all this energy and i won't go into the specifics but we have all this energy and then once you realize wait a minute. Maybe this threat isn't what i thought. There's got to do something so that's when you can take something which is going to be as as offense turned into something proactive proactive in your response proactive and what your strategic outcome. There's going to be sometimes a specific energy could be you literally have to remove yourself. Physical movement is going to help burn off that energy created within your body. Yes now let me give even example tour about a year or so ago. I went onto a forum women's forum on linked in professional women's form and i asked the question what happens when he anger appropriately in a work setting and i got about two thousand responses the domain just of which is when i as a woman not me but when i as women in anger i either get demeaned or call names. Are i get marginalized or get ignored. <hes> so now apply yes applying anger strategically in that situation would involve though the woman saying okay. There clearly is a threat here. This man is disrespecting me. He's stealing my work whatever it happens to be but i cannot attack him attack. I can't go at him directly because i'm in a situation where i don't have the power. I don't have the prestige. I can't deal with him directly and yet i'm gonna take my anger and i'm gonna use that the power that anger to come up with a plan to deal with this individual in the threat that he represents and so i would i would i suggested do these women in that case was to do it indirectly but you're you're you're applying your strategically applying the anger but you're taking that anger in the energy and you're applying in a way which will allow you to achieve your objective which is to restore the your situation in that office and get the respect that you deserve that strategically applying anger. Yes which i think is great because it is true. Something's not as cut and dry as if i do this the solutions right in front of me now i can have the the best outcome etc you're right. There's so many ways in which we have to think about this a little bit more and i think in theory all this is very practical but it's very hard hard to do initially until you can say wait a minute. I always have choices. I have a choice here and i think that's so many times. When people feel is when they feel as if they are very angry that usually the only choice is defense but to rethink it in a different way to say. I have so many more choices here. What are my choices. What am i actions and for these particular women being able to formulate the additional options options even though maybe a little bit more involved but in doing that gives them the outcome they want so really what people understand as well that you always always always have a choice in how you respond to any of these situations yes but even more than that when you strategically apply anger or any other emotion the the first part of that is to validate the emotion to has to say i am angry and in the reason why that's important is because if you're not used to dealing with anger your owner somebody else's because it also applies when you're dealing with somebody else's anger you you don't validate it then. You're then what you're more likely going to do. Is you're going to deny it. I shouldn't i shouldn't be angry. I don't have a right to be angry. No year anger is always invalid. That doesn't mean it's valid for the situation but it your anger and when you when you accept it you are angry that opens up all the possibilities disabilities for now to move into mastering that anger but first you have to validate it for you and accept it. I like how you differentiate between it's valid because all emotions have value for for ourselves south. I'd like to hear how you say if it's appropriate expression or not because i think also if we do deny the anger denied the emotions themselves then all of a sudden we compound it with shame or guilt or any type of thinking that may come in. I shouldn't be this way. What's wrong with me. Why am i always this way. That completely negates a really compounds how to then take these emotions and be proactive as opposed to now. We're putting denigrated ourself or causing herself to feel even worse or even less than in a internal way and then all of a sudden and what was bothering us externally. We've had this internal conflict and we feel like it's always going to be this way. There's really no nothing we can do to change our environment. Yes now let me take it. One step a father for your listeners. I teach that in every situation everybody does the best. They can with the information that they have now. It's not the the best that's possible because clearly we all make mistakes but it's the best we can given the information. We have or our perceptions about the situations in which we find find ourselves. Guess what that says is. Let's not judge ourselves on the behavioral. Yes we can take a look at what we did later on and whether it was appropriate to the situation and let's accept now that this is what we're doing on how we see the situation so if we want to change what we're doing we need to change our perception of the situation in which we find ourselves. I totally agree with that one hundred percent. I think it's so important because you know i always think about regret you know people like oh. I regret about this or that but i think we did what we did. What we thought was healthy at that time with on reflection. We have more information. Whatever information in front of you is going to determine how you respond love to hear that you validate the emotion you validate the experience experience. You review it later for good learning but in that moment you're going to do what's healthiest for you in that moment right now i learned that because when i first started doing therapy with these a young women i had five young women who all had killed their children. I i never came in contact with that in graduate school and what i had to help them understand that well. What they did was monstrous. They were not monsters wrecked because as long as they continue to see themselves as monsters there was not going to be any psychological growth now i i made it clear to them that you are responsible for the actions that you took and the consequences and the consequences right none of what i'm saying here. Let you off the hook for what you did but if you're going gonna grow psychologically you need to understand that you did the best you could with your perception of the situation wasn't the best possible but let's take a look at that and let's grow beyond it exactly well because i think you'll give people hope because sometimes people for for whatever reason and a broader spectrum we often become the we often become. The event of what happened happened for example. If i'm a divorced person or some or i am personally going to d._u._i. Whatever those things may be we become the label of which of what happened in that event and in doing at that often emotionally and psychologically stunts us from being able to grow and develop into the next version of the healthier version we can be right and while we're talking about i think it's also important and for your listeners to understand that while this is easy for you and i to talk about it it makes it sound like the process is easy. Not it's not and i learned that i taught a class on personal growth and i would have. I had one class where it was like. Bring your questions to the doctor you bring it and i'll answer it and so i had one of my students and he asked a question. She asked a question and i gave us very quick answer and it was like wow dr dhabi. I didn't realize my my problem was was that easy reason was i've got thirty two years of experience you a quick answer but no it's not going to be easy. You're going to have to work got it and practice it and when you do then you get good at it and you will learn to master the situation in which you find yourself. Yes and i think that's a really good point because i'm sure there are many people who think that like well lisa. These two professionals teach us what they live but in in their lives but it is practice. I don't always do the best i can. I do the best i can't as far as my response but upon reflection sure can grow in development and many other things i could do really good to hear that you normalize it for my listeners and help them understand that. This is a process and not a one shot and you're done and yes. I still get an angry and sometimes i look back and say did. I just say that. I do everything i like. Oh my gosh. I can't believe i just thankfully there. No cameras or nephews around heard that takata wsba offense has time speaking with you today for my listeners would like to find out more information about you and about your book beyond anger management master your anger as strategic tool. Where were they find this this information online both of my books are on amazon and you can get the information there but what i would suggest your listeners do is go to my website my blog. It's the emotions dr actor dot com and in the welcome post you can download. There's no option in it's free you can download the first two chapters of both of my books both emotions and beyond anger management also from that welcome post you can download a copy of the anger mastery process assess the emotional process and that also is a free download excellent. My email is the emotions doctor at gmail.com. So if questions nations come up you can email me and again. I would say that they go to my blog. I post once a week and the information is covered all kinds of emotions. There's all kinds of really good information mation there. If they like an article. Please leave a comment and if you like the books please leave a comment. That's really helpful for me wonderful so dr w would i'm i'm going to do as well as i'm going to put your books on my website james miller life dot com so if my listeners aren't able to find it any other place simply go to my website once again james miller follow dot com and you can find in my store they will link you directly to amazon and you may purchase them through my sights off of amazon dr. W thank you once again for your time. We really appreciate this interview. Well thank you very much much james. I've enjoyed. It and i hope it's useful to your listeners. I also want to thank you the listener for tuning in today. Please subscribe at this radio. Show through whatever joined with us today or please go to my website where you may sign up for for. 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441 - Surviving Prison & Gang Life - Bobby Martinez

Mental Illness Happy Hour

1:29:42 hr | 1 year ago

441 - Surviving Prison & Gang Life - Bobby Martinez

"Welcome to episode four forty one with my guest, Bobby Martinez. My name is Paul Gilmartin is a mental illness. Happy hour place for honesty about all the battles in our heads from medically diagnosed conditions past traumas, and sexual dysfunction to everyday compulsive negative thinking the show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counselling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn't suck. If you haven't subscribed yet to this podcast, it would be awesome, if you did so, so just click that subscribe button on whatever podcast platform that you're listening to this also, if you could give us a review on itunes, that would be awesome. All of those things help build the visibility of the podcast and that brings more advertisers. And that helps support their show when you could also support their show by being a monthly patriots donor. You can do it through pay pal as while, but if you do it through. Patriots. You can occasionally get some, some free stuff from me. This is an awful some moment filled out by a woman who calls herself. And if you haven't filled the survey's out, yet, there's about a dozen different surveys, and people haven't filled out the happy moments survey in a little while they don't have to be big. In fact, the ones that are kind of sublime are little bit better. I think because for me, that's a lot more doable are the little happy moments, the little peaceful moments in life than the big fantastic ones. Anyway, if you haven't done those go to the website, mental pod dot com, and then you'll see a little dropdown menu. And it'll say surveys, and you can either look at the results of other people's surveys, or you can fill out a survey yourself. This is an awful some moment filled out by a woman who calls herself what you're doing Nico. She writes visiting my sister's homeless encampment, I finally had a chance to see where she was living. I was strangely comforted to learn that she had a bed a mattress and attent with sheets pillows in a comforter. She even hung some of her art work she and her boyfriend gave me a quote tour of the several tents, and rain. Tarps they had linked together found objects like scraps of broken plastic and wood constituted shelves tables, and chairs of course, there were flies in buckets of what I assumed was human or food, waste a homemade slingshot for quote, deterring rats, but but they had made a home. And this was the best option. She could find at the time she was not alone. She had apart who clearly cared for her and looked out for her, and they had chosen a location surrounded with similarly situated folk a community with rules, shared resources their tent. Neighbors looked out for one another. Dealt with the quote, bad ones in warranty other, when they saw the cops I asked questions instead of being an paralyzing fear, which is somewhat new for me. And I learned so much about her that day still such a fucked up situation, which breaks my heart, but so much better than what my imagination had painted I slept. Well for the first time in years, that night, thank you for sharing that. And I always. Wonder when I when I pass a tent encampment. And there's a lot of them here in Los Angeles. I just always wonder about the lives of the people that are in there and. I should interview somebody. This is a shame in secrets survey filled out by a woman who calls herself Dem's. She's. Inter fifties identifies as a sexual was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment ever been the victim of sexual abuse and stuff happened. But I don't know if it counts, she doesn't elaborate spin emotionally, abused growing up in an alcoholic family automatically set you up for motion abuse. My mother was physically there, but mentally gone, and unavailable to me, my first long term boyfriend as an adult was an emotionally, unavailable, man, I chose when I knew any positive experiences with the abusers, many years after the relationship was over. I was able to realize that I deserved so much better. I realized that what he did to me was abuse. This was a big moment for me, darkest thoughts. I don't know if this classifies on target in this survey, but I would like to see a former boss gets swallowed up by a wood Chipper actually, that's not as bad, as you wanted to see him jam a wood Chipper or a disease, but not before. Financial ruin. I'm not saying this to be funny. I really do wish this upon her. Darkest secrets I beat up a girl at a concert because she wouldn't be quiet. You know, I, I wish I could be outraged by that. But people that won't be quiet movies or just make the concert, all about them. In fact, I think if you are on somebody shoulders at a concert, blocking someone someone's view, you're fair game for being pushed over. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you. I used to be ashamed that I had sexual fantasies involving other women. Now, I know that there's nothing wrong with this. What if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to I would like to be able to ask my mom why she never said she was sorry to anyone? I would ask her why she was on able to say sorry about anything. You know untreated alcoholism is. It's a mother fucker man. It's rooted in selfishness, and fear and resentment and the warped belief that everyone else is the problem. What if anything do you wish for I wish I didn't grow up in an alcoholic comb, and had a chance to make very strong connection with a female mentor aka my mother, I wish I had asked, my father more about what he wanted in his life, and not being a typical selfish teenager. Have you shared these things with others? I've kept a journal for thirty odd years, I've written these wishes down in a million ways. Over all the years. How do you feel after writing these things down? I'm wondering how might little thoughts could make an impact on anyone anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences. Try not to care what other people think in the long run it only counts if you are happy as long as you aren't hurting other people or animals. I think you know, you are I'm wondering how my little thoughts could make an impact on any one. Well, you made an impact on me. I chose to read your survey because I think what you're describing is so human, and sadly common, and I know there's a lot of people that will read this and relate to it know that they're not alone. So that's my two cents. And thank you for, for filling that out our sponsor per today is very desk. It's the world's leading standing desk, solution helping professionals maintain a healthy active lifestyle in the office, or at home, fair desk converts any desk into a standing desk, and is designed with durable best in class materials that fit in any environment or workspace with VERA desk you can easily go from sitting to standing increasing your productivity focus in collaboration ferret s comes with a thirty day risk-free. Guarantee and there's no assembly required. They also cover shipping, both ways. So if you don't love it, they'll pick it up. Fair desk is trusted by ninety eight percent of fortune five hundred companies and has over fourteen thousand five star reviews from professionals all over the world. Stay focused on what matters with VERA desk. To learn more about VERA desk, standing desks solutions, visit VERA, desk dot com slash work. Elevated that's V. A. R I, D, E, S, K dot com slash work. Elevated maximize your productivity at VERA, desk dot com slash work elevated and is always today's. Episode is sponsored by better help dot com. If you've never tried online therapy on the big fan of it. And I just love being able to do it on my laptop once a week sitting in my recliner. Spilling my guts and getting. A lot of compassion and great guidance from my counselor down on so few are interested in check it out. Go to better help dot com slash mental fill out a questionnaire. And then they'll match you up with better help dot com counselor, if they feel that they have one who is a good fit for you. And then you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you, and you need to be over eighteen and then finally one more survey before we get to the interview with Bobby, this is an awful moment filled out by woman who calls herself, psycho, mom. She writes that was thinking this morning of the time when I was living in an I in Idaho in a little house, we rented, that was married to my ex at that time, it was the dead of winter, and we were dirt poor, too poor to maintain our car to get me to work, each day, one day, my husband decided to run off to California with a friend and leave me and the two kids behind defend for ourselves. My car had no heater. And I had to take the kids to. The sitter about twenty five miles away in order to defrost the windshield, I took a couple of bricks and hated them on top of the woodstove while I got ready for work, then I took them out to the car and place them on hot pads on the inside of the car near the windows after a while the ice would melt often could get to work before they iced up again force kids, and I had be bungled up from head to toe one morning, I awoke to find two feet of new fallen snow on the ground, which I would have to deal with in order to get out after my usual ritual of defrosting, the windows. I shoveled all the snow that I could from around my car and tried to drive away. The snow was thick and heavy. I was stuck and the more, I panicked, the worse, it became I was so furious at this point thinking about my husband basking in the California sun. Then I decided to do the most logical thing to rectify the problem I went to his closet. Got all the clothes shoes and underwear that he left behind and use them under my tires. For traction. I'll never forget the satisfaction. I felt is. I looked in the rear view mirror. It is underwear flying as I drove away is undies were hanging in the trees till the next spring. Nobody's Fool when everyone care. And we're just all in this, too. There was no joy, overeating apathy doesn't leave any marks numbing out physically. I wish that I was a girl panic attacks so violent rudderless or mistaken for seizures, shall coke in my neck, the TV's tool can to me, romantically. I am becoming the woman that I feared they said. Horse fake nothing's that. Sometimes it just go. Hey, I can't deal. Beyond broken on one out, you have to like fantasize about the person. I'm with us. You fucking someone else. It's okay to be different that I don't wanna die is a miracle weird so happy to be here to help you one day, people are going to love you that it takes a lot of work to heal. It's hard being weird kids. Sometimes you don't realize how fucked up something wasn't you feel the opposite of it. We'll just never see what you're not looking at didn't know how to break up with him. So I just transferred schools. Bobby martinez. Is a certified drug and alcohol, counselor and has quite a life story. You have spent a large portion of your life in prison. Yes. And a good portion of that. How many years was in solitary confinement at pelican bay twelve years of pelican, be isolation. That's how you still have shred of sanity. Is mind. Boggling, to me, don't most people go crazy after like a month of solitary confinement. I've witnessed a quite a few individuals on totally lose their mind. You know start on you don't feces and throwing it on the cops. And, you know, that's how, you know, when somebody's kind of lost it, but the solitary confinement thing, it actually goes back a lot further than that. When I was in the youth authority from twelve years old, to twenty four years old, the majority. My time was spent in what's called the box, and that's solitary confinement at the same thing as the shoe, a lot more severe actually. Yeah. Yes, the difference between the shoe is S. H U further listener single housing unit there single housing unit. But, but the, the, the pods are eight eight eight sales to a pod in the doors are. There's little holes in the door. So you can actually communicate with everybody were in the youth authority. They're just little cells that are solid doors. We can't talk to anybody that time. Time is less. Of course. The time is a lot less. So I spend like maybe thirty days and there at a time, but I spent a lot of time in there in and out where we're in pelican bay. It was it was just twelve years straight. And pelican bay is in California, that's where the most dangerous criminals in California are up until two thousand fifteen nobody happened. So from nineteen ninety six or nineteen Ninety-one actually, when Pella can be opened up. They were sending quote, unquote, the worst of the worst in, in California Department of corrections, criminal gang members of criminal, gang member societas, and people that just could not be with general population. They were just too violent sometimes, but for the most part on there just criminals, they're, they're human beings, and, and they're being locked. Up. So a lot of the family members psychiatrists doctors. Judges lawyers started a coalition, and they find, they finally closed down to do to cruel and unusual punishment. A lot of people like I said, I was just going close down pelican bay or the toes down the indeterminate shoe, indeterminate shoe would be like. If for instance, somebody said that I was a prison gang member another inmate and they would put me in there for an indeterminate amount of time based on that based on somebody just saying disguised this, so it would it now than later on the changes to three people have to say it to finally, they can't put you in there for more than a maximum five years now, as of two thousand fifteen my brother was there from nineteen ninety one to two thousand fifteen so he's now on the main line, which is general general, general population, and he's actually one of the most intelligent people were ever talked to. Why would somebody being a gang member automatically qualify them for solitary confinement? So that goes into prison politics, which I won't get to too much in detail. I is there a reason why you don't wanna get into too much detail? It's, it's, it's just a lot of hearsay most of the people were were not even involved in criminal gang in prison gangs, just based on people feeling uncomfortable. If, if so of certain person was around, then they would just go and tell the police that disguise doing this. So the reason why most of them were in solitary confinement was because they would the theories would feel that they would be out there, you know calling shots. I say having people wacked wacked. Yeah. Few for green lit greeted. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. So you know what? I'm when I do I've yeah, I've had a few friends that have. I've walked the yard. Yeah. So I have I have a lot of friends in in, you know, they're they they're really happy with what I'm doing with my life, because all I would be doing, there was eating up there soups, right? Yeah. Instead of being out here taking care of my family, which is, that's what it's really all about Ganor spread together. And the yeah. And they're, you know, a real friend would would actually want that for another friend. Right. Yeah. So where where does it begin for you? Give us an overview of your life story. And what brought you to? Begin to get in trouble with the law and the youth authority and all and all that paint a picture of there. There was a time in my life. When I was actually proud to say that I was actually born into this lifestyle, literally, because my mother was fourteen years old, when I was born my mother, and my father, fourteen years, when I was born fourteen years old. So they were both gang members. My mother was a drug addict, my father drank a lot. So I was literally born into the lifestyle by the time I mother was twenty five she had a five other boys from my stepfather, who had opted me then she left him had another kid with another guy, and she was in and out of prison. So she basically raised us up as though we were in, in prison. She made his like I was a neat freak for a long time. I finally got over that. So that's, that's kind of the, the fruits that my wife now enjoys it. I keep things clean to talk about why. That's. Important in prison because you're you're on a cell mostly in solitary confinement. It's very very important to, to pick up after yourself. You know, you don't wanna leave your sock your socks on your Sally's bed, or, you know, not take care of the toilet area after done with it. So that's the way my mom basically raised those. I was I was born in California on nine hundred sixty five I think the dodgers won the World Series. I think sandy Koufax was them Cy Young and MVP some kind of proud of that, but being born in proclaim on. That's it. It's, it's predominantly Mexican American gang gang culture there. I mean it's a little bit different now with, that's all it was back, then, as was it a variety of gangs, or was there, one back, then there was like, three different gangs to now, there's like a whole bunch of other ones. Right. So, but my mother ended up getting into a fight with with one of the neighbors 'cause she was really. Jealous of my mom. So my mom was having a fistfight with this woman in front of me, my brothers broad daylight and the woman's husband comes out with, with a pair of knives has one to my mom and went went to his wife and says, if you guys really wanna gladdock wetter like that my mom ended up killing that woman in front of me and my brothers. So it was, you know, it's, it's, it's a memory that I still have is it's trauma that I'm still dealing with, because it's very clear. I think I was like nine years old. My grandmother, immediately took custody was in what if you are okay with going back to that. And. Charing what you remember thinking or feeling is that kid, a lot of confusion. Because we had seen our mom fight a lot. Any little thing. I mean, if those another kid that was bigger than me or one of my brothers we all we had to do is come home and tell my mom, you know, so and so hit hit David, or Raymond, or one of my brothers and my mom would immediately just drop everything, and go to that person's house. Pull their mom out by the hair and just beat the crap out of them right there in broad daylight. So it was it was one of those things that we're kind of used to your mom said, deeply traumatized person. Yes, yes, she was the baby of nine spoiled, rotten. There's, there's something it's, it's kind of funny, but not really funny. When my grandfather told me one time that my mom at thirteen years old would run home from middle school. Aucoin junior high and run to her room just to start sucking on her bottle, her baby bottle. Yeah. So that was that's, that's so that's all spoilt was. But, but where did her her anger? I mean obviously, she wasn't getting some need met that she had this rage inside her. It's, it's really it's really funny because the rest of her siblings are. Nothing like that. My aunts and uncles are totally cool. They still live today. My mom was the youngest she she passed away at forty nine my answer in their seventies now. And so there was never an event or there had to be there have been. I mean I can't I can't sit here and speculate. Right. But obviously some kind of trauma happened to her as a little girl. She was very beautiful. My mom was very beautiful is her name. Her name was Gracie after my daughter and after your dog. It's interesting is, is you're sharing this. First thing you shared is your nine years old. And you watch your mother kill another person. Your kids right now are in my backyard playing with my dog and my buddy Taylor's hanging there with them. And just the thought of those kids, seeing something like that. Obviously that's not lost on you. You're, you're spending time with your kids and there that exact age, they are the exact ages me my brothers, but there was five of us, and there's two of my sons do you remember saying anything? Did you shut down? Did you cry what I remember is, is we didn't we didn't realize the magnitude of, of what had happened. We realized that it was a fight. Awesome. Some blood. And then immediately we were swept up by my mom's home girl's gonna take into another one of the we're this was in the project. Simple, coin taken to another unit. Those holocaust and cops and it was it was a big scene. We were in there. You know, we were watching TV. I remember I think we're watching. A Bugs Bunny or something? It was just another thing when my grandmother came she swept up, which was something that she always did because my mom spent time in and out of prison. But this time she was going for a long time. So it wasn't how long did she serve almost five years for manslaughter? They gave her a manslaughter because of the circumstances. They said ultimately that the, the lady's husband got involved, which nobody saw he was acting like he was breaking them up trying to stab my mom, but he actually stabbed his wife. He did. Yes, he didn't actually. So they couldn't tell which, which wound actually killed her because she was stabbed so many times she was stabbed by your mother and her husband. So they keep me mama manslaughter. She took a mess daughter deal rather than take it. And this was in nineteen seventy four maybe nineteen seventy four so that set the stage for what in your life was at would you consider that to be that wasn't the biggest that was pretty traumatic than my mom was gone that she committed a murder was, was not really a registered would would really registered in my life at that time 'cause shortly thereafter, maybe like six months later, my stepfather showed up from my brothers so they were removed from my grandma's house by him. And so I was completely alone at that time that was that was. Something that, that I'm still dealing with. So you lost your your brothers and your mom, and the in the course of oh, maybe less than a year less than a year. And I remember they were leaving because we were upstairs, me my grandmother, looking down on them as they went downstairs the two twins left. There's twins right after me. And my little brother Stevie, he was really close to my grandmother and his dad told him, do you wanna come? And I looked at him. I said, don't go, you know, and he, he left to that was his father, you know, so that, that, that really. It's hard to explain now looking back and the effect of that. But I know that shortly thereafter, nineteen twelve maybe like three years later, I ended up doing arm robberies, and, you know, ended up in the youth authority in who were you were you living with your grand yards at that point, yet, you had no siblings. And I had to smaller siblings. They were they were already living with my grandmother. I gotcha. A lot lot young minds. I just had a couple of more kids, so we moved to north Hollywood, which not far from here. I drove up just to pass time Ben pass north Hollywood. High where I think I lasted there for like a couple of minutes. Maybe a couple of minutes, and then I was in Wii for the third time right there on, on close. Magnolia, an colefax. Yeah. Yeah. And we by the by the by the north Hollywood high, I mean, north Hollywood park, which basically what I used to go to ditch school from Walter Reed. Junior high. So I, I haven't been on this side of town for while so it does trigger a little bit of what does it bring up bring up any particular feelings, why I got involved in local gang here in north Hollywood. And well when my mom's family found out, I was I was involved in the gang over here. They were like, what are you talking about your from proclaim a-? I said, no, I'm not from from this gang now. And so it brings up a lot of a lot of that lifestyle. I ended up being like at twelve years old. I was the youngest person involved in this gang. The closest person to my age was seventeen and then it went up and you were twelve I was twelve. So that my the closest person that was to might who seventeen and then it went nineteen twenties, and give give me a picture of a typical to 'em where you jumped in. Yeah. I was described for for, for somebody. What, what that means? So I had a little friend. I was twelve I was twelve little Mexican national friend. No, we used to still bikes in the area. And, you know, a little petty crimes like that. And one day we were walking by this this area, called the crazy alley which is on choline going Oxnard. That's where I grew up. And they were they used to be a long you there. And they called it the crazy alley. Right. Where the all the electrical wires go over vacuum. That's with. No, I we I, I lived on with no highway. So I remember those that noise to continuously. So I was coming home. One day, and I was walking by the crazy Elian. Those two guys out there, maybe like nineteen eighteen and they asked me where I was from, you know that mean what gang. Are you from right? And I said, I'm from no gang, but I grew up, coin, I said, well, you're not from appointment writing jump you. And I said, no. So they asked me about three or four more questions. And they said, okay, well, we're going to get you into our gang and I looked down the alley. And there was like a bunch of guys out there. And I said, well, I gotta go home. I, I gotta eat dinner my grandma's waiting for me. This won't take long this won't take long night. So they started walking down down the dark alley. And I said, what about my friend because two other guys were questioned him. They said, oh, no, we don't want want him. He ended up getting into the rival gang. Really? He ended up getting into the the enemy of this game, which was really, really funny. And why did they want you and not him based on the questioning? Yeah. Basically the questions they wanted somebody that, that would know this gang this particular gang is very, very picky. So it's, it's, it's one of the oldest gangs in Los Angeles. They've been around since nineteen forty nine one of the Zoot suit gangs. They they're originally from south central than they had a chapter in west LA, another chapter in Hollywood. Now they have a chapter out here since seventy five they've been out here in the valley. So they're very, very particular in. It's it's always been kind of a small gang. So it it's, it's a small gang but, but I guess the mindset is different from most other gangs. So yeah, they took me down in the alley. And they counted up to fourteen that was how much they counted up to. In fourteen guys, fourteen seconds. Oh fourteen. Seconds. People kicking punch this. They didn't hurt me bad. They were just hitting my body. They saw was scrawny. I was a scrawny little kid here. And then after that, it was all downhill. I mean I just fit right in, I feel right into the lifestyle I was really dressing apart and in it did it provide you with a feeling of belonging in an identity that you were lower than anything more than anything, as I said, when my brothers removed. I think I think I really really needed to fill that gap, and they feel that got and I was all in. I was so much in that I was the one that ended up the youth authority. I so these guys are seventeen eighteen nineteen had never been to the thirty. So when I went to the story for my first time I got out when I was seventeen I wouldn't even when I was twelve about five years almost five years for armed robberies. And when I got out it was like. I was like looked upon really respect. A lotta respect a lot of admiration, because I went and did what they hadn't done. It didn't last very long. I went back to way for five more years for more on robberies, and it's not been very good at your armed robberies. I was very, very reckless, where he and I think we've drunk and high to all the time. Yeah. Drunk drunk, PCP marijuana alcohol, whatever we can get. And you've been sober. Now how long three years that's also going on three years. Yeah. First time. So. Give me any big moments leading up to your darkest times, which I have to imagine we're in solitary at pelican bay or no. The dark is time in my life. Yeah. Would have to have been about three years ago years ago. Yes. Yeah. In two thousand I went I went back to prison in two thousand twelve for forty dollars worth of meth the judge game for years with half time. So I was supposed to do two years because I was a validated prison gang. You get no time cuts. So I went to prison. The first thing they do throw me in the shoe to hatch shoe since choose are the shoes segregated housing unit. Right. So I was into hatch, be doing thirty eight months for what forty dollars worth of crystal meth is now it's a misdemeanor. I would did the whole four years, prop forty seven went through. So they kicked me on six thirty. I got out determined to change my life. I was like, four harder Catholic. I loved Catholicism the nun would come in every, every Thursday, pool miata myself, put me in a little a little k-. And giving my catechism and find the father Boyle came from home, ways and did my comedian, and I did my holy communion, like three years ago actually, in two thousand fifteen. So when I got out I was determined to change. I went I went back to the woman that had my two sons the ones that are played in your backyard to this was in two thousand and fifteen I got out. Determine a change. She was doing something else. She was ready to, to stop drinking. That's all she was doing with drinking. And so I thought I could change her. I knew nothing about alcoholism or addiction. I just are codependence, none of that. None of codependence is, is now that I know is one of the most difficult to, to treat char. 'cause it's always for that person to think the problem is the drinker. It is it is. So she ended up getting pregnant, I should say, only the drinker problem. Yeah. So I joined her once in a while. I mean I wasn't completely sober, but I was working for a moving company fourteen hour shifts, and I'll come home, and she would still be drinking. She tried to stop. She really tried to stop. She would fix yourself up. I always knew she was drinking. She would just try to stop, but I didn't I didn't think she wanted to. So after the baby was. Like seven months old, I took all three kids and left. I left her took three kids to the hotel on paying a babysitter is still working, maybe like two or three weeks after that DCFS department shooting family services called me up and, and said that they had picked up my son's from school, and that was to bring in the baby to the office, as soon as possible, I had no idea what was going on. But I was sober for fifteen months off and on me bid drink or two. And so I took the baby into the office. My two sons were standing there with two workers. They were not that young. They were young but they knew what was going on. And I had I, I handed the baby over to the worker and that was that was the darkest moment in my life. Because when I left there I'm merely win. It got some methamphetamine a big bottle, tequila, and when it got a hotel room and I had a really nice Mercedes-Benz at the time. And that's what I was living in. And that was help. Were you still gang? Banging, no no gang bang. It was way behind. Yeah. Gang banging I left behind a long long time ago. So it was just just that was the darkest moment in my life. And we're the children taken away because neither you nor your wife were sober. They were taking away because I didn't take them out of harm's way. Festive they said, I so wait a minute. I did take him from the home and they said, well, you didn't do it fast enough. So fast enough is now I tell my patients during group what is fast enough, if your child is about to put their finger in a light socket, how fast you protect that child instantly? So in all reality, my daughter shouldn't be born because the same day that I got out and she was still drinking. I according to department is to family service. I should've took the boys that day. So it is what it is. I mean, now there's a New Orleans a new audience with the ordinance with the department children family services that they're not removing the children's simply for substance use disorder. So it has to be other other things involve simply for the parents getting higher trunk. They're no longer removing the children because of the trauma involved with Lawson separation. Right. So they finally came to the realization, right? Causes more trauma. And yet, how do you deal with people that are putting their children? You know, because there's a gray area between stay the fuck out of somebody's life. It's going to be worse for the kids to take them out. And this child is around drugs twenty four hours a day and chaos. And this is no life for them. But foster care isn't great for them either. So what, what, how does that swell you, so you so I guess I'm just guessing DCFS is mindset on this. Is there Wayne out the traumas worse? Right. Is I mean, we're putting the children in the in the parent in treatment, because now it's all about treatment. It's all about harm reduction. That's the biggest thing that, that's, that's, that's what's popular right now is harm reduction. So we can reduce the parent from doing meth to, to marijuana all called, and then success. Right. So we're, we're, we're we might be putting them in. In residential the parent might be able to keep children. If the children are being fed with the children are being taken care of even though they're on drugs. A lot of parents are still taking care of their kids. They're just not giving them the full tensions impossible 'cause they're doing with their addiction. So then the parent goes to outpatient treatment, so there's many different avenues. So you weigh the difference. So this, this is a this is a real number here. It's just for the simple Lawson separation that my children suffer because they were in, in foster care for one year, that's a long time. So one year twelve months, they were in foster care. It's four hundred percent chance four hundred percent likely that they will grow up to be addicts for that one situation that happened in their life, not even counting all the problems that they had whether mom, and I were using drugs before I went to prison the first time not even counting all the me not being there. Their mother getting drunk. Showing up at the house, that's, that's all the other stuff piled onto the loss and separation when they were in foster care. So there's a really really high percentage that my children can go up to be addicts in we're not even talking about the gene that's going to get passed out. Right. So that's what that's what's being Wade out. So as a parent, the best thing that I can do right now is, is, is educate my children on, on a diction and what they might have. So I tell my patients during group all the time, and I call them patients because that's what they asked us to call him. I'm not a doctor. Right. They asked us to call them instead of clients, we call them patients. So I always I always say you know what my nine year old can come in here and run this group right now. He knows what the diction is he can tell you, what addictions play doesn't comprehend it completely what he can probably run this group. And that's, that's my main focus right now as a father to help educate my children. Let's go back to when you were in pelican bay. You went in what year got during nineteen. Tonight, one eight to nine hundred ninety four I went to Corcoran shoe sows in Corcoran shoot for two years, and what, what you were you in prison for I was in prison for armed robberies again. Okay. I went in nineteen Ninety-one finally got out in two thousand and six. So I got on their on to ninety ninety five and I ninety six. So I was in shoot from ninety four to two thousand six. In your in your getting sober and taking a hard look at the things that you've done, and the harm that you've caused people give me some highlights of moments where you finally, if, if you did saw and fell the depth of the effect, your actions had on on others. I think. When my wife and I she's my wife now we've been together for she's she's actually a lie going. I have she's twenty two years younger than me. When we finally got back together when our when our children were were returned to us, and we ended up in a Pentecostal church, a Chatsworth foursquare church. We ended up there as a compromise. One of wanted to go to AA the other one in this was on New Year's New Year's Eve. So one of us wanted to spend in a the other one wanted to spend it the church, we compromise say, we'll stay here. Tell Levin, and then we'll go to a way ended up staying there till the whole night until the next morning were there. And that night, we accepted Jesus together. You know, they are they ask us anybody except Goss, we walked up there. We were the only ones and we're holding hands and we accepted cheese together. I think maybe weeks after that in a church often, I just fell on my knees. One day at the altar and, and I broke down. Down. And that's when everything just came flooding, it just flooded. I mean, everything that happened to me. And so what thoughts and feelings and memories came up when you when you broke down. Not that many memories. But I think just a lot a lot of trauma that because as a Christian, we are able to take it off of us and give it to God. And I, I think that was the biggest thing is still is, is still is. I don't I don't cry that much anymore. But I did cry for maybe like a year, every time I went to church on, as my wife, you know, she, she has a lot of trauma to so that helps a lot in, we're the tears of sorrow, loro, Sarut sagi-, all that, all that shame shame mostly mostly because just described some of the things that you're most, if you're comfortable, of course, most a shamed of in your in your power, once again, I'll once again, it's. Not that far back. So, you know, my mom always prided herself on us never getting taken. She was gang member. Always had somebody in the house. She was she was a heroin addict for all life. And I remember always talking about also and so just got their kids taken away. How stupid is that person? You know, and I remember even though she would go to prison. My grandma was always there, but I never put that in connection with with us never getting removed. And my grandma wasn't there. We probably would end up in foster care now that I think about it, so I would go recently before I got sober to these houses where people are doing, crystal meth and they'd be talking about, somebody got their kids taken wells. How could she be so stupid, you know with the Hicks wrong with that person, you know, how, how could they be so dumped let this happen to their lives and their here getting high? So when it happened to me, it was like one of the biggest shames of my life. I remember when they when they finally gave us a overnight visits, because they start out with, with. Senator visits in an unmonitored visits. And then finally overnight visits. So when my three kids started staying the night from Friday to Sunday. A little girl. She was eighteen months at the time. She knew WHEN Sunday, what's coming around, because she was packing their stuff, and she started crying, and my wife didn't have to experience this because she would be at work. So I would have to take the kids to the front. We're living in the back house, and the and the, the foster mother would pick them up. And I would have to put my daughter in the car seat, screaming creaking and crying, and throwing a tantrum, it was kinda hard to Buckler in, and I could hear her screaming like down the street driving away guide. So I like God. That is heartbreaking. So one day, I went I went I heard screaming, I was walking back because we lived in the back house, I walked back and I, and I sat down inside there, and I and I cried like a baby. I literally balled and I just let it out. And, and then the next day I was thinking, why why did I cry like that? I knew it wasn't for her, because she's a baby, she's going through that. And I realized it was my shame. It was the shame and guilt that I. Felt for myself for letting this happen. For letting this happen because I felt I had a little bit more intelligence than that. I wonder too, if, if there wasn't a, a part of you remembering that happened to you. You're absolutely as a kid, I mean, don't let me put words in your mouth. But that's I know oftentimes I can't cry for myself, but I can cry if something happens that can represent the part of me. I'm sad about, but don't want to face. Does that make sense? What are you saying is a I was crying for Bobby when he was younger. I'm, I'm wondering if that wasn't also a part of it, you know, all of those all of those you asked me about some some dark times at pelican be so I should share this with you during the twelve years that I was there and before I go a little further. I just want to say that I chose to go, there, I chose to go to like chose to go to prison when. When I finally finished with the youth authority, I was twenty four years old. And I said, you know what I'm going to go visit my brother in prison. My brother had been in prison for. Maybe like five or six years already is life. Or now. He's been in there since nineteen eighty to nineteen ninety-five five he got arrested for murder robbery. He's still in there. He has forty five to life. So I was like I just I was high. When day I know what I'm gonna go. Visit my brother and I started doing crimes, and I wanted to get caught. And finally got like twenty nine armed robberies and. When I went to prison I needed to get to pelican bay the only way to get the pelican Bay's to do other stuff in prison. And I remember when I was in Corcoran shoe, which is a lot less isolated which is still segmented has housing. But you, you come out with with a group on your little yard. I remember I went to board and they told me Mr Martinez. If you don't settle down, we're going to sing you to pelican bay. And I and I remember looking at them in time, don't you know that's where I wanna go. And they looked at me like if I was insane. I saw the look on their eyes. And I remember that clearly they looked at me like what the heck and I said, because that's what my brother's at I need to see my brother Finally, I made it up there, after two years between all kinds of stuff anything he wanted to share. The worst thing I did in prison in. I really really felt bad and I still have a hard time with it is those racial thing going on. You know there's a lot of racist racial stuff going on in prison between blacks and Mexicans and this particular situation was going on for a few months on the yards. And then it would come back to the whole administrative segregation that's the place. They put you right before you go to the shoe before you get transferred. And I got on the bus I had a shank on me that they didn't find and had a cuff key that you have key stirred. I had accused her, yes. Yeah. And I had a cookie in my mouth to come my hand coast, and I came onto my coasts as we got to the unloading dock at app Corcoran. And I ended up stabbing five black people on that bus. It was it was really, really unfair because they still have their handcuffs on. Thank god. I didn't kill anybody. Thank God, it was a bunch of superficial wounds, because I remember they were in the holding cell next to me after the incident and they were like they had little bandages on them. It was like five women there. And they were looking they were telling me, you didn't do anything to, you know you could have killed us he could've killed us. And I remember thinking that, that's absolutely right. I could have. But I didn't where they taunting. You kind of got you now that I think about a maybe 'cause they, they did wanna get me for that. Oh, yeah. The whole show like Crips and bloods. They, they really want him to get me for that. Right. But, but, but it but it was what was going on? And it was this, something that the shot caller said, no, this is something that my Sally decided to do because I remember my salary saying this is your chance. This is your chance to be somebody here and I remember. That. But I didn't take that chats might chance would have been if, if somebody would've died. So it wasn't it wasn't such a big thing. Even that didn't give me a pellet can be there, I still had to do other stuff. And, and what how did you make a cuff key and shank made out of it was a real key? Oh, and somebody guard had been bribed or something. Maybe more it we got it from some other white guy. Okay. Why guys always had this stuff wise that they're very, very well those those, it was a white guy that had it and he quite prisoner. Yeah. And he told me what he was going to do. And on the bus the next day, and he had a really, really big shake, and he was gonna kill somebody Ford. Fortunately for me the metal detector kept going off on him. Is this shank was too big? It was too big sick. They put him in an isolated cage on the bus. So as I was walking in on the bus, he gave me the key with his mouth and. Habit. So I ended up in pelican bay and would I wanted to share with you is, is during the those those five years, or twelve years that I was there ten ten years that I was in pelican, be my mother died at forty nine my father died at fifty my grandparents who raised me both died in my baby. Brother was murdered. He was stabbing stabbed to death. So those five people died during that time. Wow. That's the only time you're allowed to get a phone call so me and my brother received five phone calls in that time period, and that's it. That's it. And the reason why I bring that up because this is how much this is how much it hurt me when it had to hand my baby over to, to the to the social worker. I remember that feeling very clearly 'cause it's not that long ago. It was the worst feeling in my life. That's why it's easy for me to say. That's the darkest time of my life in those deaths combined don't come close to that feeling that I felt when I had to hand that a little girl over. In that little girl is Gracie. That's crazy. Yeah. Who and Mike raciest chewing on a bone right now at bobby's feet. Describe. Solitary confinement, and pelican bay and were you able to reconnect with your brother and actually actually me and my brother became salaries the first night I got there. And how how was that clearly wasn't just random? No, no. Well, in at that time, if you had a family member, when you got there, you let you let the officers know, during intake, and they would immediately sell you owe there would. Yeah. So he left his salary that he had for like five years, just to come with me. You know, he's he's six foot three my both of their twins. They're both six three. All my brothers are six foot something. I'm kinda short on the oldest. So I, I had I had a I was in Nemec when, when I was like three months old. So I, I don't know that price stopped my growth a little bit. But anyway seen him again. It was kind of shocking to see him after all that time. But. It was great. We were Saudis for almost six years. Yeah. So we had to go to my mom's together, my baby brother was was really hard. He was the youngest. He got stabbed to death like thirty times in the head on a choline go in Oxnard. And what was that over? He was the baby of the family. So he would run around the neighborhood. He was all my, by the way. All my brothers ended the following me into the same gang. I have one sister who who's from pajama. So all it was were imprisoned at the time he was the only one out my baby, brother. He was twenty seven or something I think this was nineteen ninety eight and he just believed that he can do whatever he wanted in the neighborhood. Those two guys about like I'm connected. Exactly. Exact no one's gonna do nothing to me. Because my brothers, right? And that was true from for the most part. But these two guys ended up moving into that neighborhood. My neighborhood. They were from south central they knew everybody my neighbor. They were accepted there. They were cool as long as they bring their gang there and on New Year's Eve on New Year's Eve, my brother was drunk, walked up to them in started pulling their car stereo out of their car, right in front of them. So my brother gets in a fight with the owner of the car. My brother start stabbing this guy, the other guy who was the cousin of the guy. My brother was fighting started stabbing my brother. So the one that my brother was stabbing died. My brother died on New Year's day, then the next day from the head wounds, and that's all he died. Wow. So in my mom had to suffer through that too. My mom also last my little sister when she was five now doing the Monja. She was the only sister at the time. That's the first death, derail with my little sister. Yeah. I was I was visiting my dad 'cause I when I found out who my dad was I started visiting him on the weekend. They picked me up a little early my at my, my dad's sister, and she just she looks back at me driving home. I said, why are you guys? Taking me home store. Your, your sister died. And I remember clearly that only one tier came down one tier. I remember it was one tier that's it. And my aunt went looks back ships, don't cry, she's with cheese with God, she's, she's in heaven now. And then. Okay. I remember that I'm maybe like a month later. My grandma died, her mom, my dad's mom, and I remember my aunt at the funeral was literally almost bringing down the casket, one of those screaming young, and I remember sitting in the back and Saint, she's the one that told me not to cry for my sister, you know, and that, that's such a, it's such a, a tragedy in, in, in so wrong to tell children not to cry, especially little boys. Yeah, it's stuff. It down stuff it down. Oh my son on, Raymond. He killed cry. He cries, and I remember that's how I was swept. I it would bother me. Why crying why you always crying you know? You know, look at them wrong. He starts crying. He's emotionally. And then now I remember that's high was outcry for anything. Those are good people to have in the world, people that cry. Yes. He's, you know, his mom, which is I, I heard I overheard his mom talking to him today. You know, giving him a hug, and time that she really appreciate his compassion, and his emotions days really good hearted. She appreciates that about him. I didn't get involved in the conversation when I just heard that today, you know, that's awesome. Yeah. Talk about the mental aspect of being in solitary confinement, things, things that the average person has no idea what people do to cope, what it's like emotionally. I'm, I'm glad you asked me that question, Paul. So the, the, the, the thing that's the stands out the most is soon as you get there as like the fellows will ask you, what, are you studying? What are you studying? What do you mean? I watch TV and watching novellas of soap operas on Spanish, I know what are you studying? Okay. So, so they wanna know what, what's what you're studying. Literally, if you're not studying anything, then they will they will pay for your correspondence courses. So I who, who are the, the other fellas in there. I'll have a couple of friends that are millionaires in there. They're never getting out with, you know, I have a friend that, that owns a lot of shares in Microsoft, then when his when his parents died, they lift him a little bit of money, and he, he invested all that into Microsoft when he was just coming out. So he's a millionaire now he's never going to get out, but his family's well taken care of I mean, I visited his family in intimidate when they have like four houses on the same block. So, so it's their way of saying, what are you going to how you're going to spend your time? Yes. So, so the, the, the most important things are education and exercise, so exercise. I, I mean that was my new addiction in that in that goes really well with, with, with meth addicts is, we know that exercise, one of the best things for treatment for mitt Addicks. So I didn't know that then but I mean I used to do like a lot of burp. He's a lot of Burke's. So that's prison, exercise of choice. It is it is, especially in the shoe because you're so confined, there's no, I think the rec yard is probably eighteen by six concrete walls, eight by six that's the rec yard and there's no direct sunlight ever. Have you seen the movie shot caller? No. I'd be interested to know what you thought of it. And I stumbled across it on I don't know net flex or something. And I thought it was really interesting. But having never been in prison. Have you watched any documentaries on pelican bay? I don't think I have so that, that would that would I would suggest that it's pretty gloomy. It's pretty sad. It's pretty dark, but so you can get an idea of, of just how much it takes to come out of there with, with some kind of sense. You know, it amazes me help because it's northern California and it's overcast already. Right. There's no direct sunlight at all. Because there's, there's a chicken wire on top, and it's really small concrete yard, you get to come out one hour. You didn't see the sun for how many years, ten years, you did not see the sun for years for ten years, I was as bright as is a is a, a lightbulb when I got out, you see how dark I am right now. I remember looking at my first driver license when I got out, and I was like, wow, I was really, really jaundiced really, really like pry yellow, and that's that's, that's you see any. You'll see a tree, no one time. They let me out of there by accident to the to the general population at pelican. Be and I remember coming out of the concrete walls and going onto the regular GP yard, and there was grass. And I remember how shocking that green was to me it was like being in another world because we suffer from sensory. Deprivation. That's what I saw from now. It's very difficult for me to, to give a lot of affection physically I try and my wife understands this. So essentially deprivation, everything is grey. The only thing you have outside yourselves your TV to thirteen inch TV. That's it. So that's that's superficial. It's not really grass. You see it. So when you see real grass, when you get to touch somebody, it's because you never, ever have any physical contact. So as I it's intense, so everything is kind of everything is electric, that your door opens up electrically go into. Shower that opens up electrically closes. And you come back in your cell closes. You go out to the wreck yard opens so everything is done it, actually. But, but education. I mean I read it. I taught myself English grammar in their pro writing, I studied history, I studied psychology any particular things in history or psychology, kind of I really tuned to, to religion all religions of the world Mexican Mexican history. I know a lot about. But the, the thing that my passion was was grammar English English grammar was because I want to write. I knew I wanted to write. So I, I right. Well, I right. Well, I think I speak, well, most of the time and it really really shocks me that people don't really know how crazy I really am. It's, it's, so it's, it's incredible. It's incredible. When I'm when I'm at interview or something people think I'm really saying. I think I might I might suffer a little bit from PTSD, man. You think? And I don't need a psychiatrist. Tell me that, and I don't need my shit, the things that you have had a front row seat for, you know, things that you've had done to you things that you've done. It's, it's mind boggling that you're not only still standing, but you're functioning. Yes. And then I'm able to be a father and a husband all of the armed robberies. Do you ever picture the faces of the people who's? Faces you put the guns in front of an and what sometimes they might be experiencing today. I know I caused them a lot of pain. Yes goes up because I'm thinking, I, I know if somebody pulled a gun out and I'm in a diner, that's going to fuck me up for a long time. Just seeing a gun because I don't know what their intent is. I don't know if they're crazy. I you know, I'm just imagining what it's like. For those people and once over person to another. You know, for us to, to, to find peace and really cleanse our souls. Sometimes we got a picture the harm that we caused others. And so I'm just kind of thinking out loud as, as, as a victim myself. I have a really good idea of what they went through. I was actually stabbed in prison by my own people. Those politics thing, just prison, politics, which would shock the heck out of me at this happened. So I got stabbed like thirteen times my back. Wow. By two people. Thank god. There was two other people that were there to help me. So it was just a prison politics thing. Nothing about him anything like a being a, a rat, or anything like that. It was just prison politics. But that that left me in shock. And I remember sitting in the infirmary leaking from my wounds and thinking, like, like what the heck you know there's been a lot of times. I mean, I've been robbed before at gunpoint, and what goes through your mind when a gun is in your face. It's, it's like why I've always, I've always been even before I started robbing. I mean, I remember telling you, one of my girlfriends before when I had a really nice crisis. Look, if somebody, walks up to his in wants this car, I'm giving it to him and your purse, and your clothes, and your shoes, and we're gonna walk even if we're walking naked. So I I've known at a very young age. To not be Bravo on because I guess, I know what the mindset is if somebody who's desperate. Yes. Yes. So even now I mean and I'm not gonna hurt anybody the only way that I would probably hurt anybody in my life. Now is if somebody broke into my house, and try to run out with one of my kids, and even then I wouldn't kill them. I think I would just like hold him down until the cops game. So I, I don't mind sharing this next piece with you. I it's, it's, it's a very big breakthrough in my life. So I live in Chatsworth now. Live right next door to my church. And so some as I was going to school. You know you were there at my graduation, somebody stole, like all my books my car, fifteen units worth the books on my backpack in a had a computer carrying case, they thought it would, I guess they thought it was a laptop in there. It was just all my books. I had just organized everything for the end of the semester, so they stole everything. So you were you were looking for a suspect. Wearing glasses. I can't I so I say you know what I'm gonna make a right. Instead of left the morning that I went to work, and I saw this little guy coming out of the one over the wall. He had a big black trash bag and I stopped. He had a backpack on I stopped. The roll down the window. I said, is that your backpack? He was. Yes, my backpack. I knew in my heart, Paul. I knew that, that was my stuff in the bag in that black trash bag yet. A glad bag and I drove off. Sit look like your backpack. No. That was not my. Okay. I, I don't know what I would have done. But, but I know my stuff was in that bag. It just saw. I know God put that right there. I know he got put that person. They're like, how's this fail? No. Like, what are you gonna do? I say, like what are you gonna do? Let's, let's put your side to the test. I drove to Devonshire police department in may. My very first police report. Wow. That is a sign of change. So I, I was in there, I waited for them to open because I was on my way to work. It was early. The cops they were they were totally cool. I mean one of them like he goes, he goes you've been in prison before you. We're having a conversation. I said, yeah, he goes, I could tell you know, he's looking at my all my tattoos and, and, you know, he had a brother. He has a brother doing life in prison. Puerto Rican guy from New York, you know, he was in New York PD now. He's LAPD, and we had a really great conversation. You know, and I got to talk to him about God. And in one of them was a Christian, and it was just like this is where I'm supposed to be right now not over there beating that guys. But for stealing my stuff or fighting him and maybe getting stabbed or shot. Right. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I have that report in my compartment, and I told him I as I'm walking out there. Like, man, we feel really bad about that. Man. You know it was like all my book. So they were they were feeling bad worse than I said, you know what? How many people have filed this stuff on me? For a lot worse man, this is nothing. You know, I'm so appreciative that I can stand here today to do this or Bobby, thank you for, for coming in taking time out of your schedule, and, and Sharon all this stuff, and answering them in my some of my very personal questions. It's been great misses the longest interview I've done so far in. I've been able to get a lot out in our. I appreciate his very therapeutic right back at you man. Thank you. Welcome. Well, I gotta say that, that was. I was an amazing amazing conversation. I learned so much. And I love when we do an episode that breaks new ground for this for this podcast. Many, many thanks to, to Bobby. Today's episode is sponsored by crazed. It's a new podcast created by the national mental health innovation center, and it highlights big new ideas in the world of mental health from how to transform mental health treatment to prevention and stigma reduction, and the visionaries behind these ideas of the two hosts are Matt Vogel, and Rick record. All Matt is the founder and executive director of the an M H I C. And also a former professional stand up and Rick is or was the senior executive at DreamWorks animation and their guests? Are familiar with the impact of mental health, both personally and professionally, and you'll find compelling stories information about cutting edge mental health technology and just great dialogue about difficult issues guests include policymakers nonprofit leaders, researchers, technologists filmmakers in more and the ideas and stories presented on crazed, or the kind that you dig, and we'll probably be talking about long after you've heard the episode so you can find crazed anywhere. You get your podcasts or on crazed, podcast dot com. Subscribe and listened today going to read a couple of surveys. It sounds like a, a neighbor. Of course, his just started doing construction, as I as I hit record. So we'll see how long this lasts this is from the I shouldn't feel this way survey. And this is filled out by guy who calls himself. Get me the fuck out of here. He. Is he he's in his twenties? How would you like to be remembered did? If I was ever a weirdo. It's only because I had a slightly better grasp on the human condition than most people. How does it feel writing that a little egotistical and like it had nor is the fact that I'm weird because I didn't have friends growing up. How would you use a time machine only to see significant historical and personal events for myself if I could add loved to experience them as a non effecting, observer? I should feel grateful to my patient and generous parents for letting me live with them after moving cities and looking for a new job. But I've talking hated here. I can't wait to get the fuck outta here. Have a week before work, and I can't do anything except sit around and try not to feel anything. I can't enjoy myself here. I can't relax. I hate talking to my parents. I hate seeing them every day. I feeling like a jerk for being annoyed. Every time they try to talk to me, but everything they say is so dull and a name and all I want is my own goddamn place. I'm supposed to feel confident and like I'm doing something good with my life, and like I'm a good and likable person, but I don't I'm constantly arrested with guilt and shame for all the times. I've heard people or made them feel bad or been made to feel bad by someone I obsess over all the mistakes, I've made and try so hard to tell myself, I'm okay, I'm doing a good job, but I just hate myself right now. I feel so friendless alone and alone. You know, my thought is, is, I was reading your survey. Is it, it sounds like you're so emotionally disconnected from your parents? I mean, that seems obvious. But you seem like someone who is urinating for some type of emotional connection, and you're you're really trapped in your your head. And I don't know whether or not your parents are capable of having an emotional conversation might my hunch is probably not. And a lot of times, I think that's why we experienced things as being annoying is because there there's a lack of connection and. It just feels it. It's almost worse than being alone when you're around people, but feel disconnected from them. It. I don't know why you but. It. It brings about a sadness that I don't even experience being alone sadness. Maybe is not the right term, but a a longing for, for connection and a just wanting to get the fuck outta there. So I relate to that. How does it make you feel to write your real feelings out? I don't know a little relief, but it doesn't change the months I have left before I can afford. An apartment. Do you think you're abnormal for feeling what you do not really to be honest? I feel like I've made it an abnormally longtime without having a bunch of guilt, and shame issues would knowing other people feel the same way make you feel better about yourself. I guess question Mark, I know people do, but I don't know anyone I can talk to about it. Maybe it'd be better if I had some equally ashamed friends. I think support group would be awesome for you. And I think you would find the connection that you're looking for, and I find it having deep conversations with people I trust to so, so energizing, and life, affirming to me, and it just brings me, you know, often a, a sense of peace and. Just a feeling that I'm where I'm supposed to be in the universe because one of the things. Then I hate experiencing, the most is this sinking feeling that I'm doing the wrong thing at the wrong time the wrong way, and then everybody else has it figured out, and that I'm just not doing life. Right. And that's generally the mean part of our brain. Not wanting to make peace with reality. Not that we can't ever learn, and grow and maybe change up our day to day activities, but it's such a mean black and white way of looking at ourselves and where we are in the in the present moment. Anyway, thank you. Thank you for filling that out. This is an awful. Some moment filled out by woman who calls herself, foo foo she writes after listening to this podcast for a good year or two while running. I finally got enough courage to meet my problems had on I started to meet with the therapist that specializes in anxiety, a psychiatrist and got referred to my family doctor for prescriptions. Thank you, universal health care. My therapist had mentioned that it is difficult to get people with anxiety to try medication because they fear the worst. I'm a catastrophic thinker? Go figure. However, she encouraged me to think about the side effects of not being on medication. I've heard you say the same thing. On the podcast. So I went to my family doctor and spend an hour talking to her about everything. She wrote a prescription of Prozac for me. I finally go to my local pharmacist after a few weeks of holding onto this prescription, and debating, I'm ready to take the pills when he looks at the prescription, the pharmacist looks right back up at me and asks if I've ever tried yoga instead. What eight dick? What a dick. Thank you. This is a shame in secret survey filled out by a trans woman who calls herself. Chill shod dentists, his bisexual she's enter twenties was raised in a stable and safe environment ever been the victim of sexual abuse. Yes. And I never reported it I was getting close with a gay man that I met at a party. I'm a trans woman, but I was not out and was still presenting male at the time. I knew he was interested in me sexually, and I started to entertain the idea of having sex with a man something I had never done. I let them take me out to a bar and see where the night goes. He bought me several shots. And that's the last thing I remember, I don't remember riding his apartment. I don't remember puking or dressing for him to wash my clothes, However, I do remember being in his kitchen, wearing only as oversized shirt and being bent over the counter. And penetrated, I remember thinking that I was okay with this, this, that this is what I wanted. This is fine. I remember if. You more sex acts after that. And then sleeping in his bed. I've wrestled with this night ever since that's been a couple of years. I'm not sure how I feel about it on one hand, I was willing to have sex with him, and it wasn't entirely unenjoyable. On the other hand, I was in no state of mind, consent, and I absolutely consider it to be rape. And that's one of the things that such. A mind fuck about unwanted sexual. Activity, whenever you wanna call it. Is it, it it's not wiped away by the fact that we wanted to have sex, because part of the consent is the way that we have Sachs when we have Sachs. And that's just because we're we're ready and willing doesn't mean we're ready and willing for everything. She's never been physically or emotionally abused. Her darkest thoughts. I've had intrusive thoughts about feces namely eating it. I fear this thought, like crazy until I learned about intrusive thoughts and how to deal with them. But then I had a new fear. What if I'm not actually transgender when I was struggling with denial about my gender identity. I used to try to avoid trans thoughts at all cost. I was afraid of these thoughts much like how I was afraid of my thoughts about eating poop. What if my thoughts of being the wrong gender, where just intrusive thoughts that I brought into I bought into because I didn't know how to deal with intrusive thoughts like I do. Now, did I just convince myself to live out my greatest fear? I think I'm just having intrusive thoughts about intrusive, thoughts at this point. I know I'm trans, but these thoughts make me feel completely crazy. Sometimes I look in the mirror and see a man. Man and women's closing clothing. And think, oh God, I am crazy. That is not crazy. That does not crazy in one of the things that my therapist will say to me is. And former gas, Kimberly Quinlan who talked so great about intrusive, thoughts and OCD is. It's intrusive thought it if it's counter to what we want an arm rally. It's not an intrusive thought. If it's about something that, that we desire. And that is in line with who we are. And who we want to be darkest secrets I'm still in the process of coming out. So me being trans is my biggest secret. I also never reveal that I've never had sex aside from one raping sexual fantasies most powerful to you my whole life. My biggest turn on is just the idea of being a woman, having sexism woman, having breasts and of China, feeling my vagina being penetrated, I watched female point of view porn, and it's intense. It also makes me feel a deep deep sadness because it will only ever be a fantasy. What if anything you wish for unrealistic late to be biologically female and go back in time to experience youth as a female realistically question, Mark to just find happiness with what I am a trans woman. Have you shared these things with others only with, therapists, and not even as intensely as as? Have written about it here. How do you feel after writing these things down? I'm realizing that I'm writing how passionately, I wish I could express these feelings with others? I feel better writing it and would feel a million times better if I could share this with someone I'm currently working with my therapist to get through my shame and be able to open up about this. Thank you so much for this really beautiful and heartfelt survey. And I'm so sorry that you had to experience what you did. And that you're struggling with self doubt about who you are. And. But I can tell you from from reading your survey, you just sound like a really, really sweet sensitive soul, and I have the feeling if you just keep opening up and finding healthy people to connect to that, that self love and that self acceptance will will come and you'll find the peace and acceptance that you've been looking for it, just it just takes time and. I wish it didn't wish it didn't. But thank you for your survey. This is a shame in secret survey filled out by a woman who calls herself prisoner in a room she identifies as straight, she's in her forties. She was raised in a pretty dysfunctional environment. I would say it's much worse than that. I would say, totally chaotic you ever been the victim of sexual abuse? Yes. And I never reported it from before I can remember my parents, had and still have a live in servant slash housekeeper slash nanny. Also, my father had an unmarried sister, who would stay over at our house regularly. When I was a child both women would share the same room as me and my twin sister and quote sleep with us and share our bed. They quote took care of us as part of taking care of us, they molested us in the bed and the bath from before I can remember to the preteen years, that was the unspoken quo price. We had to pay for being. Taken care of my parents were largely absent working professionals who were not involved in child care. I feel confused and angry about the abuse for one thing. I do not recall any penetration. Just fondling of genitals, that, that, that does not matter violation is violation. And it's. And even that is a very, very dim memory. The only two reasons why I know for sure there was inappropriate behavior. Were number one when I was nine years old, I told my three year old sister do not let anyone touch your private parts. Why would a nine year old Tele three year old that where would I have gotten that idea this was years before sexual abuse and incest, was a public topic in the media number too much best friend, told me and my twin sister that those two women tried to touch, her inappropriately and my friend had said, no? That was the first time the subject was discussed between me and my sister. Sometimes I still don't myself about whether it really happened or not, especially when I'm around my family. She has never been physically abused. Not sure if she's been emotionally abused. She writes, not. Yeah. She writes, not sure any positive experiences with people who abused you. Yes, they provided the only attention and caring and quote love that I received as a child, they gave me gifts. And that's one of the mine FOX is the grooming, the grooming the price that people pay and so many predators understand, and can so quickly. Hone in on that neediness and provide what it is that child's looking for, or facsimile of it and use that as the bait to then get what they want. What are your darkest thoughts? I can't wait until my abusers are dead because what they did messed me up. But also, I can't wait for my parents to be dead, too, because they're neglect allowed the abuse to happen. Then I won't have to pretend. That everything is all right. What are your darkest secrets my deepest darkest secrets mostly have to do with my long term history of depression? The basic glaze, since I was first hospitalized hospitalized if the age of seventeen my life has not been quote normal, I barely graduated from high school. I dropped out of college. I haven't been able to hold down a time job. And I moved in with and married, someone who supports me because I can't support myself and I struggle every day to keep on living, despite suicidal idealization and overwhelming feelings of depression. I think it would be so so important for you. To process, what happened to you as fully as possible with somebody who is really experienced professional, who's really experienced in dealing with this, because that is I mean. Course you're experiencing all those things that you are that you were like you the name you use for the survey, you or a prisoner in your own home and worse than just a prisoner. You were being. Tortured. That's torture. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you, my most powerful sexual fantasies involve being used in abused not having any control and sexual situations. Feeling powerless, it gives it makes a lot of sense to me given my abuse history. What if anything, would you like to say to someone you haven't been able to and why to my abusers, I hate you for what you did to me to my parents, I hate you for letting me be hurt and abused? I'd like to say that because I've not been able to confront any of them and don't know if I ever will be quote strong enough to. What if anything you wish for I wish I could not be scared of life of waking up each day alive. I wish I could trust myself that I would be able to deal with whatever. Life throws at me. Have you shared these things with others have shared these things with my therapist and my husband? It went, okay? When I shared it. I could be wrong, but just from reading this survey, it's how it sounds like there isn't a tremendous amount of processing of it going on with your, your therapist, and maybe, maybe finding a therapist that does trauma, work, PTSD word like AMD are somatic experiencing because stuff that's buried that deep down that our body is still holding onto it needs. Not only does the. The mind need the release of talking about it. But the body needs the release so that our central nervous system, isn't just constantly on high alert, and that I think is probably why you're waking up. Just terrified buffets. The world who wouldn't look at what your world was like when you were kid. How do you feel up to writing these things down? I feel clearer and hopeful that maybe by sharing them someone else will feel less alone. Is there anything you'd like to share with someone who shares your thoughts or experiences that sharing what we think, and have experienced the only way to get through the hard times been through a lot of different hard times, and social support is crucial to survive them? Thank you so much for that. Sounds like. Telling you some stuff that you already know. So I apologize if. I sound redundant. And then finally, this is an awful Simone filled out by a guy who calls himself, my own worst enemy, and he shares it. He's been in a relationship with his girlfriend for just over a year any rights. When my girlfriend told me that she identifies is bisexual early on in our relationship, my stomach, immediately sank in that moment. Not because I'm against her being her authentic, self or anybody else doing the same, but for me and my self esteem issues that meant more people to be jealous of and compare myself to fast forward to a few weeks ago. My girlfriend told me that she had a physical attraction to a female coworker of hers, and she didn't know how to deal with it naturally. I withdrew into myself and had my very first panic attack I gotta question, whether that was appropriate for your girlfriend to share that with you, especially knowing the issues that you have, I think it would be different. If you and your girl. Girlfriend if there wasn't the issue of, of jealousy. Anyway, I withdrew into myself and have my very first panic attack due to this, I had to let my boss know that I wouldn't be able to work, the following day due to panic attacks develop debilitating nature. He called me up the next day to check on me and it turns out he has anxiety, too. He works through self esteem, issues and has had panic attacks on multiple occasions. He even opened up to me, and told me that when I need someone to get some shit off my chest. He'd loved to listen. And for the very first time that anybody has said that to me, I believed him who knew that the person that I thought I would be disappointing by not showing up to work would be the person to relate to me and support me when I needed it most. Thank you for that. And what a great example of our inability to predict the fruits of opening up and being vulnerable. So thank you. Thank you for Sharon that. And I hope you guys enjoyed today's episode and if you're out there and you're, and you're struggling just never forget that you're that you're not alone. And if you haven't subscribed yet, hit that subscribe button, and the next few weeks are going to be best of shows because I'm taking some much needed time off. And hopefully when I when I come back, I'll, I'll feel recharged, and we should have new episodes, going up starting the first Friday in August. But these episodes that I'm putting up. Have been run before our from quite a while ago. And I think they're great up associate. So if even if you've heard him before, hopefully, you'll enjoy them, how's that for me being codependent? For subtly shaming myself for wanting to take a break. Anyway is never forget that. You're not alone. And thanks for listening, everybody, I know is bizarrely beautiful everybody. Arly beautifully fucked up in some weird ways are beautiful.

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A Psychological View of Cindy James

Women and Crime

51:26 min | 7 hrs ago

A Psychological View of Cindy James

"This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing in nature. Listener discretion is advised during the nineteen eighties in canada. Cindy james was purportedly the victim over one hundred acts of violence which included both psychological and physical abuse however even with a police investigation and help from a private investigator. Her attacker could never be identified. And eventually the police would come to suspect. That cindy was actually perpetrating. These acts against herself was cindy her own assailant or was she a victim of a disturbed individual whose plan was to i torture cindy and then murder her. This is a bonus episode. The cindy james story reexamined i. Amy am against amy. I'm super excited for our guest today via to near you cited. This is a special episode that we are doing in response to all the emails and contact. We got from listeners. People were going crazy after the semi cindy james that we and with their theories and ideas and questions and so in this episode. We are joined by. Dr scott and dr shiloh. La based forensic psychologists and hosts of the amazing podcast la not so confidential. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having us with four doctors. We're going to solve this thing. Yeah right seriously. We've got. I gotta tell you. I'm one of huge fan of of the show. Anyway from even your podcast. But i this cindy james when you guys reached out and said hey give this a listen and i had never heard of it before it's fascinating it's beyond fascinating and maybe guys if you don't mind maybe you could tell the listeners. A little bit about your background and what you do sure thing. So we are both forensic psychologist in los angeles as you stated in the introduction of us and i have worked primarily in two areas of forensic psychology majority of my career has been working with previously incarcerated persons when they have transitioned back out into the community and i specialized in high risk sex offenders. So it's working on not only their transition back but obviously preventive recidivism and Every mental health issue that income up simultaneously. That's going on with them whether it be A psychotic disorder or disorder treating all of the above and then a little side piece to that is that i would also sometimes work with pretrial offenders. So people who are actually getting ready to go into prison A lot of them for the first time. So it's it's basically psychological prison prep and also a lot of work with anxiety and depression disorders. And they still do that in a private practice. But in the last four years have moved into law enforcement psychology. So i work and directly employed with a large law enforcement agency here in southern california where i provide clinical services to law enforcement officers as well as consultation and training to the department and part of their crisis negotiation team. Thank you silo. Dr scott we turn it over to you. Sure so my path is a little bit different. Shiloh and i did meet at the forensic site where we both Trained his internships and then she stayed on. So i had a little bit of an intersection there for a year with her. She also forgot to mention like the big kind of buried the lede. Their shiloh shilo is former law enforcement herself. Which is a big deal. Which i think is what is really a special Aspect that she brings to our creative work together. I was in entertainment here in los angeles. For many years. I was a casting director line producer postproduction producer talent manager and then when i moved into pursuing psychology. I really start out at the master's level and thought i would just be in private practice. And then i got introduced to the idea. Forensics and then went to a doctoral program that is a clinical program had an emphasis in family. Forensics doing expert witness family evaluations custody evaluations. And that just sort of lit this fire in me. That i had no idea that i was even interested in and i worked in the ala. the california department of corrections for several years on maximum level security yards and also really specialize population yards that are unfortunately the new mental hospitals for those that have an intersection with crime. Like basically across the us. Prisons are quickly becoming what used to be psychiatric patient. That got a reason to lock them up. They'll put him on a mental health yard I did that for a few years. I then came back to los angeles and worked in The twin towers county jail Twin towers correctional facility which is the largest Jail in the world That was an amazing and challenging experience. And now i work I work actually in a co responder model with law enforcement to follow up in the community for high risk individuals so we pursue people that fall through the cracks to try and get them back into treatment. Sometimes we find the mentally ill from around the country and around the world and we we repatriate them to their homes. Because they are problematic to themselves into the community here in los angeles and We do things like Threat assessment risk assessment. We have a particular program that is fascinating where We really try and strongly intervene when an individual is identified to us that may be heading towards a violent extremism including mass shootings or math. Moms where the first thing we want to do is really what we can do to defuse the situation and redirect the individual before it becomes embroiled in legal system so yeah And shiloh. And i have been really very very close friends. Our families are very close and this has been our baby for the last three years and we've had a great time. I mean it's i love. I have to say i love your podcast. 'cause you guys are so tight and we are not tight. We are ninety minutes of blabbing back and forth so our listeners have a particularly strong constitution for listening to me drone on quite proud i just because amy and i have no patience i love it. You guys are like the ernest hemingway's of crime. I love it. Well thank you. We appreciate it. We love your podcast. And u2 are really exceptionally qualified to a specially shed light on this on by the way on probably every one of our cases but on this one. I can't wait for those of you. Who haven't yet listened to this case. We covered it back in episode number thirty two. I'm going to give a brief recap today. But if you'd like to hear the long version you may want to go back and listen to episode thirty two of women and crime. I and what i'm going to do today is recap the james story and then we're going to get input from forensic psychologist on their opinions about what really happened to this woman. This is a true mystery. Did you guys feel it. It was like mysterious when you were doing it. Oh yeah it's a twist and turn goes back and forth. There's so many factors that could lend to either options. It's so complex and i. It's so complex and also it's so one of the things that shiloh immediately commented on. His we were going back and forth is that it's shrouded in time by maybe only a couple of decades but what makes it more problematic. Is that the field of psychology and particularly. Forensics has come light years since that time. So you know we're we're going to be saying like charlotte our saying is like we're not gonna. We're not gonna be able to give you any kind of definitive answers but we do think that we can shed some light on things that important factors as to what might happen if that time. We'll take it are shiloh said at the end. The four of us will solve this thing that i would love that therefore we saw that. Let me remind listeners. A little bit about this case just so you guys have a refresher here so cindy james was born in ontario canada in one thousand nine forty four. She was one of six children described as a very sweet gentle loving person. She was very focused. Both academically and professionally early on graduated and became a nurse. She worked if you recall for A children's home children who had emotional disturbances and i mean for all intents and purposes by her very early twenties. She was very established professionally. She also married someone A doctor that she met. Dr roy make peace and he was eighteen years older than cindy they would wind up spending. You know about fifteen sixteen years together but they divorced in nineteen eighty two. And that's when the trouble began for cindy james in october of nineteen. Eighty-two cindy began calling the police department and reporting acts of violence committed against her. Now we know that the first complaint she made was really just a prank. She said someone's been calling me and pranking me breathing. Heavy into the phone. You know she was a little bit scared but this was something that's happened to most of us right. We've most of us have gotten prank phone calls. But what happened was her calls began to become more frequent to the police and she was reporting incidents of aggression against her. That we're escalating. So she was reporting that the lights outside of her home or tampered with and there were phone wires cut and then there were threatening phone calls and then eventually cindy was physically attacked. There were a couple of incidents that she reported but one notably was when her friend came over and found her hiding in her backyard. She said that someone had tried to strangle her with a pair of stockings and she actually had the the stocking hose around her neck. There was another incident where cindy was found wandering around on a really cold winter night near a college campus with no shoes or code on having no memory of what happened to her. There were a couple of other incidents one. Was you know she was found in a ditch with pantyhose again tied around her neck and suffering from hypothermia and in that incident. She had bruises. She had all over her but again she still didn't remember what happened to her. Sydney became frustrated. The police became frustrated. Cindy thought that they weren't helping her and while at first the police were really attentive and believed you know that cindy was a victim. They changed their minds and they came to believe that every time they investigated or put someone at surveillance or put a phone tap in nothing would happen and because of this. I think they got frustrated as well and they eventually came to believe that cindy wishes and this was all just for personal attention after that frustration. And after you know i believe she also was at some point you know. She spent some short amount of time. A couple of weeks in a mental hospital so after she was hospitalized psychiatric louis for a couple of weeks. She also wound up getting herself private investigator because she wanted help. You want to help a two things. I think she wanted some level of security be. She wanted to prove to people that she wasn't making this up. She wanted help catching her assailant. And so she hired ozzy coban and he had provided some security for. He gave her a two way radio and then he describes another really disturbing incident in which he heard weird noises through the two way radio at her house and so he rushed over and he found cindy i mean in an awful state on the ground. Her hand had been nailed into the floor. I mean we are talking about real brutality here. Unfortunately it escalated. Into cindy james murder or cindy james suicide either way cindy james died on may twenty fifth nineteen thousand nine. She had gone to do some shopping. Reportedly she was going to pick up her paycheck but since he didn't make it home then and the police found her car in a mall. Parking lot they found blood on the driver's side and they found cindy's grocery still in the car. Her wallets were strewn about. I mean it didn't look at it. They knew that there was foul. Play of some type in about two weeks later. They found cindy james body in the yard of an abandoned house and her hands were tied behind her back. Her feet were tied. She had injection marks on her body. Toxicology reports confirmed that she had the massive dose of morphine but there weren't any needles found near her body. there was also as there had been with all previous events. A black nylon stocking around her neck showing strangulation. That was one of the common threads to every one of her attacks. The police believed that cindy injected herself somewhere else and wanted to the site where she eventually died. That disk crime happened at her own hands. They wound up. Having an inquest. A very long. I think the longest one at the time in canada It was about three months. There were eighty witnesses and at the end of this long extensive inquests. The conclusion was still. Don't know cindy's ex husband. Dr makepeace testified. He was always considered a suspect but they could not conclude that he was the perpetrator. There was also along the way a police officer that cindy had dated and i believe he was a suspect as well which some say would have explained why there was never any police around when you know cindy was being surveilled or watched by the police because he knew better but in the end the truth. Is there still a huge question. Mark over what happened to cindy james now when adrian. I did our original episode. We did this with the help of a student and so we had read what all her opinion was and we discussed and our student. Kelly's opinion was that cindy was doing this to herself and that she likely suffered from factitious disorder otherwise known as much housing. We also discussed the idea that cindy had dissociate identity disorder. These were two of the ideas if cindy was possibly doing this to herself. I concluded that someone was actually victimizing cindy other than herself. I had said that. I thought it was someone who is intelligent. Organizing who stocks in the for some time and knew the patterns and details of her life so my conclusion was more likely outside of the insider. And amy do you remember what your conclusion was. I also believe that cindy could not have inflicted all those injuries upon herself. So that was a brief recap of the events that led up to cindy staff and our opinions and again please go back and listen to episode thirty two but now that we have all the information i am so excited to turn this over to dr scott and dr shiloh to hear what their opinions are on this topic guys. I can't wait any longer. What well at mar more questions than answers. Maybe no you know. I think with anything like this. I kind of start with this mind map okay. Let me simplify it down to a couple of options and then let's sort of go out from there and really we're looking it. An option of either. Cindy did this to herself or somebody else did. So i wanna start with kind of the option of wrapping our minds around her actually being able to do this herself. Okay we we have looked into this. Before in the sense of people who falsify their own attacks because they just really hard for the general population to understand like what could bring somebody to do that but it does happen. It happens a lot. There's several several cases out there and there's always some sort of goal or need that is being met for this person. Definitely attention is one of them. It's not always attention but attention is one of those that just seem so unrealistic to others but for that person it's worth doing these acts usually. When attention is the goal. It could mean a lot of different things for the person it can mean that you know. They're trying to get a need met of not feeling seen by others before. Maybe they are truly victimize In a different way. They're feeling that that never got justified. So now they're trying to create a situation in which gets remedied for them Another reason that people falsify their own attacks and we really looked into this when the whole jesse smollet case happens because people were just like their minds were blown of how that could happen right off but sometimes it's benefit and benefit could also mean a lot of different things. it could. It could mean an alibi. If i say that i was kidnapped and held over here than it means. I wasn't over here doing this thing that i wasn't supposed to be doing not necessarily criminal but it could be to gain sympathy. It could be treated nicely. We know people fake entire cancer diagnoses to have money and potlucks thrown for them and candlelight vigils and they go far. You know oprah winfrey did this as a teenager too. And she's very she's very open about it. She told tell that anecdotally on her show that when she was like maybe eleven or twelve Shed to get glasses and her mother would not buy her the frame that she wanted so she broke them and then kind of like turned all the furniture over a knocked the bookshelves over on the ground and when her mom came inch tried to convince her back some crazy person came in mazing glasses. My glasses been by her. Mother was not having it. I love oprah. She sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Yeah that's amazing. Actually going back on track. I just want to ask a question about this. Did that cindy. James have any history of attention seeking that anyone saw not that i saw no now giving potential explanations. I'm trying right if she fits into any. That's one of the challenges like if we had extensive interviews with family and friends that could shed light on that. You know you could see from childhood. Was there a groundwork for this being laid. And that's that's what's so tantalizing about this case as we don't have those things so we're we're trying to fill in some of the spaces like shiloh doing right now. You know if we were doing psychological assessment that we wouldn't just go with cindy story. Of course we would want that collateral formation from other people on fillon as much as possible. We have what we have to work with here today. So that's why. I say it does create end up creating more questions making this year. I'm refocusing on what it means to take care of myself and it could not be easier than with daily harvests. They've been one thing that makes me feel better about my day and myself. No need to over. Think any of your meals for the week with daily harvest smoothies for breakfast chris. Flat breads for lunch or dinner and food. That's perfect for cooler weather. Like they're perfectly roasted harvest bowls and soups. Have you had any of the bowls yet. I'm obsessed with the bulls. I'm not kidding you. 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Get twenty percents off your first order by visiting pretty litter dot com and use promo code women. That's pretty litter dot com promo code women for twenty percent off pretty litter dot com promo code women but what we found with with our previous research and look into people who fake their own attacks for whatever reason and of course. Sometimes it's monetary insurance benefits. For those who falsify hate crimes sometimes they really are being they are suffering some sort of harassment but then they upped the ante because they believe it's not being taken seriously like it should be right and sort of stage something for themselves but we found it was quite closely linked with personality disorders. More than anything else. So i'm going to hand it over to you scott to talk a little bit more about that. I mean without going. We can't go deep dive into personality disorders. But you know like you mentioned amy. The possibility of Attention seeking we have personality disorder which usually is characterized by overt sexuality as a means to get attention or Very sort of blown dramatic presentation but we also have borderline and you know borderline personality really. There's a there's a big overlap with a lot of the behaviors that happen but again. We just don't have enough information. I will save for me. The things that do put a pin in the possibility of this is there's indicated from your Podcast and from what. I read that there was a history of abuse in the family that she had a very authoritarian not authoritative and overbearing. Father that sends up a red flag for me. And then there's the possibility of Really harsh capital punishment when she was a child. So what is harsh capital punishment to a child mean to us in two thousand twenty one. It is very different so now it would have been defined as in the eighties right. What some Authoritarian parents have been getting away with up until the last decade or so has been really rough so if we do lay the possibility of the groundwork of possibility for her to have trauma in her early years possibly underlying issues as well like if their you if they're does a genetic predisposition towards personality disorders or possibly even some psychosis. Those things could have developed down the road that the thing that doesn't add up as we move through this is that these incidents are so dramatic and no one else's witnessing them. Yeah so that doesn't happen and in my work you know one of the I've had four four cases. Now where my detected partner. And i have gone to homes of people that do not appear to be low functioning mentally ill. They are people who held jobs and are either now retired or on sick leave. They paid their bills. They've been in relationships and they are suffering from delusional disorder. You know in which is not a personality disorder but these people believe that the minute they turn around and lose their focus on the front door. Somebody's coming to the front door and moving their belongings around or stealing and as as we talk about in podcast particularly with delusional disorder. It's fixed you you. You are not moving delusional disorder with an antipsychotic medication. You might get some flexibility anyway taking it back around to cindy as like this is what's so fascinating to me is i myself. Don't believe that she could have done all of this alone. Although she could have done a lot of it but chart the possibility of her having a personality disorder coming from a history of trauma may very well have linked her to someone who was abusive and she was involved in an abusive relationship and either unwilling or unable or a combination of those two things to be authentic and transparent with law enforcement and the people around her. There are too many things that don't add up. That's an interesting insight. Because that was something that you know ozzie. The private investigator and her family. It's suspected that she was harboring a secret. She was getting ready to share it. She never made it to that point but they also thought that cindy knew her attacker and just wasn't saying it was not divulging something. I strongly believe that. I really strongly believe that she knew who who this was. I just now. I do want to ask you a question. Also we we talk about the two way radio. Do they mean a walkie talkie you know. It's funny. I think that's exactly what it was. Yes okay. so if it's a walkie talkie you don't transmit sound unless you're pushing the button that's correct. Yeah it's not possible so it's not like there was a an ongoing baby monitor where he could monitor her from miles away so clearly you know i. It sounds like he gave her walkie talkie. Hey if there's a problem push the button and y- and scream and i'll come running but for there to be some kind of weird noises doesn't make any sense unless she is holding the button down and gurgling into the walkie talkie now. I have to say though. I'm unclear as to what the noise is where it could have been that like. She grabbed it. Held it down in. There was commotion. You know what. I mean are like a loud thud or something like i don't know specifically what those noises were if he heard something continuously or if it was once so i'm not sure i'd have to go also and look like footage with him. Yeah so another kind of circling back around just briefly to the to the personality disorder thing and also a complete cross boundaries in so many ways is the involvement of the relationship between her and the law enforcement officer is really indicative of poor boundaries. Now do do. Poor boundaries indicate a personality disorder not necessarily but personality disorders really do indicate usually a lack of appropriate boundaries right. And is this an officer that was working on the case. Like yes hedy to there. It was actually someone who was working on attic. But is that her poor boundaries or his both. Okay but i mean his but here. Here's the thing. I'll tell you that is so fascinating about individuals who have personality disorders for anybody out there. Who has ever been at the receiving end of the golden sparkling spotlight of a border line or histrionic. There's nothing like it. You feel like you are the most important the most talented the most vital person in the world. Because that's what they're projecting onto you at that moment and it's almost magical the way it happens now unfortunately the other side of it is when inevitably it shifts into the negative you feel the maelstrom you feel the lightning the thunder the storm and you are the recipient of all of that unconnected anger that the border line. The history on feels. So i'm gonna just say there's many many Examples of this in american law enforcement of law enforcement becoming involved with citizens who have personality disorders right affairs sexual interactions. You know. I was trained to do a lot of things. They're not necessarily trying to recognize like you are a hero position but this is not real. What's being projected on you right now in. So that's very interesting. That's like a whole other episode. It's not every single day you one of the doctors in the Psychiatric facility where she stayed diagnosed. I mean they diagnosed her. If you were called hysteria paranoia but somebody also diagnosed her with psychopathy. And that was not something i saw at all. I'm just wondering schizophrenia. It's just a funny was one of them as well. Yeah i mean. I wouldn't be qualified to like not qualified to obviously diagnose schizophrenia but i just didn't see any psychopathic traits. I guess i don't agree either. I mean it's just like they were throwing everything that doesn't exceeded what sticks right. Yeah yeah right especially rising to the level of actually saying psychopathy is. i mean. that's a hard bar to meet I don't know about you even the antisocial personality disorder. I don't even say that. She meets criteria for that with what we know. I did want to circle back to dissociate identity disorder. Just give your listeners. A little bit. Because i'm sure a lot of people sort of saying that that could be what's happening here and just for like a quick and dirty rundown. This is re current gaps of time for these individuals who suffer from this. That are missing. Or there's some sort of sensory motor functioning being impaired. That's going on with these people to where it's it's rising to the the level of putting them into significant distress So it's actually not that rare. It can be rare for the more severe cases. But if you are driving home from work and you don't really remember your drive you dissociated. So it's it's it's how much Information your brain can keep in if you think about random access memory like is like your computer has like there's only so much that the brain can handle and excite shiloh. I love that example. Because there's a function to that mild level of dissociation. It's basically your brain is spinning down for a second leading itself rest. It's still functioning. You're still driving. You can still like stop on a dime if you need to. But that's how people have that missing time but in examples like she's talking about the severe examples were going all the way to the end of the spectrum where people are lose months at a time and what we don't really see with it. Is this severe self injuries. Behavior even with people with loss gaps of time and not having memories like kind of her walking around in the cold with no coat. That kind of fits a little bit. I'm mike okay. But the the month the years i mean really years of it. I'm shallow. I just interrupt you because it's important for this. When i talked about on their first episode. I had said that yeah. I don't really think people with these. You know extreme cases self harm in this way and then it was actually a listener. Who ronin said that. I was wrong and that it's a lot more common for self injury and i. I think you're saying that it's not that common guts different two different thing. What how so. I'm when people lose gaps of how. I'm interpreting that without knowing what you know researcher start. She's pointing to or he's pointing to is that they are injuring themselves. In accidental ways like there are people who have driven and like. How did i get here. And they may be involved in a traffic collision but like suicidal nation. Or self. Harm that sort of thing. That's what i believe the person was referring to. And that's what i was referring to and scott. Were you gonna say well. I'm going to go l. Limb here. And i want to be very careful and respectful to your listener. Some but first of all the ideas of very controversial diagnosis. And i think that it is very over diagnosed by clinicians. Who don't know what they're talking about. I work with a clinician here in southern california. Who is she's an expert and she's the one that like if i need a consultation. I go her. Because and we sent people to her to differentiate like is this somebody who really has d. Id or is it something else. And there's a lot of things that can look like d id but to your listeners. Points is like i unless there's pointing to a study that i have. I not familiar with. And i would love to see that if it exists but the idea that an altar would hurt. Their host is very very like common. That's exactly what i had said. I thought they'd have more protect the host. That was my point as well right because self-harm serves a purpose. You don't the altar doesn't try and hurt. It's on hosts no matter what the level of anger is a person self harms in order to relieve psychic pain. Right okay it serves a purpose so now this person may be citing that anecdotally and they may have a personal experience with themselves or a family member or something so. I'm not saying that. It can't happen but i will say this. If they point you towards research please send it over to me because we are always looking at whatever is new. Yeah i certainly will thank you and sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off and you're going to forget that question. No not at all and i just want to piggyback on that that the biggest lesson i learned a million years ago was that there are no absolutes. You know we can look at statistics and say statistically it's more likely she's doing this door self than some right you know. Deranged organized offender is doing that to her. But is it possible. of course of course it is. Maybe we just don't know this this level of this person. Because i was saying like well she the only one was there any other women that were being attacked in the area. This way to this person. Just pick her and then just stop when it question it who knows who knows but i lean more towards With the majority of the research says what's more likely especially rice cases but there's always always an outlier. But idea is we said this a little bit but the idea is also a common response to trauma as well. So we saw this with the documentary. The keepers We've seen this and lots of different areas every made for tv movie about multi you know personality disorder. There's a trauma there. But there's there's a kernel of truth to that so they're essentially. Some people are the associated state happens because itself preservation again for the psyche but some people are actually experiencing not being able to remember that because they don't want to either so it's all about self preservation and tower brain functions and works to protect us. This might be a silly question. But with the i d do people usually suffered traumatic event as a child and then than this emerges and adulthood trauma happens and then it's more of an immediate response is it could be either one of those mean what we're seeing a lot in. You know what we understand now in post traumatic stress syndrome which were trying to follow the uk model of not saying disorder but saying syndrome As a means to not Stigmatize that condition is that you know person who is functional on every level but then goes through a horrific series of chronic tragedies such as our soldiers or our law enforcement or you know someone who's been sex traffic than absolutely mean we see that pay basically people if you've been trafficked and you're forced to endure being raped multiple times. You're going to dissociate that's gonna keep you safe. And they may have had a wonderful childhood up until the point that you got pulled into trafficking or up into the point you had that Officer involved shooting or up until the point you or on the battlefield nonstop with aida going on around you. But that's a great question. But i think it can be both but certainly what we do understand for the rare and severe cases of id that do end up in prominent most of is coming from childhood because she didn't have a ton of traumatic while we don't know well we don't really know it was reported. Remember that her father was she. She said that he was abusive. She had told i guess. Dr made her husband that so we don't know what level of abuse but her perception i was gonna say it's all subjects this in some way and that could have been traumatic regardless. Yeah and look. I don't sound. I'm probably going to get some hate mail on this. But that's a really large age gap in that relationship. Yes now in if it was just the age gap or it was just the trauma. It wouldn't be significant to me. But i'm i'm just going to say that's notable to me that it's a combination that she asserts that she had this experience in her family dynamic and then she picks another wealthy successful authority figure whose much older than her. Yeah no that definitely hit me as well. Yeah let's look it option b. here. Let's let's talk about if this was truly either stranger perpetrating this crime or somebody that maybe she knows a little bit. What stands out to me. That kind of fits in line with. This is what is happening to her. If we're assuming that perspective is that it really does fit in line with what. We know about stalking behaviors. So stocking is not about one action. That's why it's so hard to make a stalking case about a combination or multitude of behaviors that the perpetrator is inflicting on the victim. That creates sort of the the perfect storm to be able to say okay. This is stocking the are being victimized and harassed to significant distress. So it's repeated. It's persistence breath. It's intrusive so it can be illegal means of all of that but it also can be just kind of multiple forms of harassment. That feel little like if you take them out by themselves or they're just annoying but when it becomes a cluster of activities and that's what we're seeing here. I mean it it. it started almost. It's almost a perfect escalation. With how low level it started and then went up level by level by level mentally years down the road leading to her murder but the hallmarks of stalking is that the perpetrator wants to evoke fear and distress in their victims. As well as a sense of loss of control over their lives in their environment. And i think this is picture perfect for that. Can i chime in then. Okay so everything that shiloh says now accept it now if we just change one aspect we make it a an agreed upon or consent relationship because there are some consent relationships that are abusive and toxic. And we do have evidence. In fact shaolin i in one of the case studies. That was used with us in our training at the forensic site is almost an example of of what we're attacked actually way more physically abusive with way more significant wounding where a person has been drawn into a b. Dsm relationship with a master and who has coerced her. Like you know. I own you. I own you and some of the things that we were like this particular case study was like dropping and more common than it should be. I'm not gonna say it's common but like this was an example. Where in looking at cindy's case there's so many things that she could not have done alone but it doesn't make sense unless the guy had unlimited resources. I mean when we think about the person who really everybody thinks about as being responsible for the black dahlia murders. This was a rich individual. If if if he is the actual murder he was a wealthy powerful man with fingers in literally every level of la society law enforcement and judicial system. He had the money to cover his tracks and do anything on it. So let shiloh was saying that possible that someone could have stalked cindy to this extent with all of these resource. It's possible but it's really not luckily without some kind of consent. Which i think is what her family and friends were picking up on at the end. Yeah that she she had more information. She knew someone but she was scared right. So that is kind of almost theory see is that it was somebody that she knew that she was in this media. Medium arranged relationship with and she was a willing participant but maybe also mashed in with the attention seeking peace because leading law enforcement know about it and we should be also be very clear that like we both shiloh and i in all of our work we are very sex positive and there's the vast majority of bedia sim relationships are very very healthy because the the boundaries are very understood so healthy kink is healthy but there are some that are not into it. It's like it's the idea that you know rape is not a crime. Sex rape is a crime of violence right and air some media some relationships that aren't about intimacy and taking it to me. See to a really. You know a really profound level but where it's just about working out your own psychopathy. You know on someone else. Unfortunately i'm wondering if cindy was a willing participant. I don't know you really say the word willing because she was definitely victimized in some way but if she was consenting on some level i'm wondering that she withhold the information may because she was embarrassed or because she was protecting that person any thoughts on that i think it could have been all the above and even if it went to the of her changing from consenting to dumb like the case that scott nye had a little bit of involvement with that she became fearful of this person that she does tell that he could kill her but if law enforcement caught him. You know maybe it wouldn't be the same so she's putting these calls you know especially towards the end but in in a if we're talking to straight stocking scenarios the average amount of time that someone stocks someone else is only thirteen not only to diminish them but thirteen months which is small in comparison to the time that was going on for a right. Wow longtime yeah. Yeah and the majority of the time thirty three percent of the time. It's an ex spouse right and or a casual acquaintance first of all. is that the realm. Have we covered the realm of possibility. Yeah let's go to the realm of possibilities. But i do have a list of things that i can quickly go through that to or confounding in a number of ways. That's okay yeah. Go for it so i want to start out first with her. The description of her being a nurse at age nineteen. That's not a thing so You know for her to have completed undergrad and get licensed so she could have been the nineteen eighties version of an lvn which is a licensed vocational nurse and god love. What they do is like lvn's all. I'm have utmost respect for the medical community however they're saying oh. She had knowledge of injections. And all these drugs as a nurse will. An lvn would not be doing that. Level of work that have seen it but at age nineteen. It just doesn't seem very likely. Yeah okay okay. So that's something. I wanted to point out the psychiatric medications at that time. You look we. We are in a time right now. Where secretary psychiatric medications at the right dose in the right combinations can be like sniper rifles for symptomology in psychosis which is wonderful. That's not what existed thirty years ago. Arsenal for antipsychotic medications were thorazine. Haldar mellow real lixin and stella zine and lex attain all of those basically mute you they just. It's not that they're turning down just the auditory and visual hallucinations and the beliefs. It's turning down everything you're basically zomba fine people so you know. If she was on a host of those kind of drugs. I think her behavior would have been altered if she was on and off them. That would have been significant. But there weren't like you know. They were not being specific with the medications. At that time that i think would have been applicable this case. So that's the point. I really wanted to make the other thing is. I reached out to an acquaintance of mine. Who is a big time Bondage expert here in the fep community a fetish community in southern california and his opinion was look. I'm a ropes master. No there's no way that this person could have hog-tied themselves. It's not possible. Absolutely not possible. And i respect his position completely but then i went and talked to a friend of mine. That's a magician escape artist at the magic castle and he said absolutely you could do that. Well that's what happened. In this case to remember there was an expert who said no way in an extra absolutely right but the thing here. That is Confounding that i think is very important is that they report that she ingested a large amount of morphine. So the idea that that she at anytime jabbed a needle into her arm shot herself up with any kind of opiates and then engaged in tying herself up. That's not going to happen. Opiates hit you so quickly. Right you are gone. And you don't care about tying yourself up at that point because you're already gone right so all of that leads me back to that. There was another person. That was involved. That i some reason. And that doesn't mean just because somebody else is involved doesn't mean that she didn't have other serious underlying mental health issues. She may have. Had some promo mild schizophrenia or mild psychosis that made her more susceptible to being in this kind of relationship. So those are the things. I just wanted to add very it sound. Actually i mean this is great but it sounds like Scott sounds like that's your conclusion that correct me. If i'm wrong that you think she was she was involved with someone in this kind of relationship but that it's entirely possible that these aren't mutually exclusive have still had some of these underlying conditions that propelled her into this sort of maybe unhealthy relationship. Yeah okay shiloh. I'm just curious. What's your scots conclusion. Is your conclusion the same or different or i. it's basically the same. I think there was probably more mental illness than we know about going on with her for me. The biggest evidence of another person being involved actually is the witness that when the house caught on fire came outside and saw the man run away from the scene. You know that could have been a stranger perpetrator but that could have been the guy that she's like. Hey set the fire. Make sure stick around. Make sure nobody gets hurt. And that we all get out okay so for me. Having that third party piece is huge. Yeah but i with with the evidence that scott was able to lay out in the expert opinions that he got. I was leaning towards her doing this herself. But i think she was heavy into the attention seeking and again sort of intersected with her own mental illness probably and this relationship with this other person. All right well listen. I have to tell you. I was first of all thank you. That was brilliant and it was great insight into Some of the things that we discussed and some new. I had never considered the bcsm relationship. I think that was new. And that makes a lot of sense. I feel comfortable with my original conclusion. Not completely but that. I i do believe there stranger involvement but of course like you said that there's probably more mental illness than we know amy. I'm just so sad that there again more questions than answers. But i think you laid out a really plausible theory and i. I have so many questions. I don't actually feel like more. I feel like a some kind of questions about michelle. Carter questions about cherry fifteen or another episode clearly. I don't blame you i actually. I would want to say that. Like i really hope that even with all the time passing that somebody can shed more light. I feel it just feels like. I wish somebody would do a full on documentary on this because i think that there's got to be someone who knows that knew her. That worked with her too. That would give us more insight into this and hopefully hopefully with your listenership this will happen. I would love that to happen. And with your listenership. I i actually. That's my hope as well when someone asks recently like which cases do you want to solve. I usually have a go to. But now cindy james is now my go-to i want solve this case. I need to know more so people who are listening. Please give us a tip. Throw us a bone on web on your own. Yes please do and really a big. Thank you to. Dr scott. Dr shiloh again. La not so confidential. Please check them out and thank you guys so much for your help. And we'll catch everyone next time on women and crime. Women in crime is written and hosted by meghan sacks and amy schlossberg. Our producer and editor is james varga. Our music is composed by desert media. If you enjoy the show even get access to add free episodes exclusive. Ama's and other bonus content for small of the contribution through patriot to find out more visit patriotic dot com slash women incline

cindy james cindy Dr scott dr shiloh shiloh los angeles amy Cindy james shiloh shilo california department of corre twin towers county jail Twin t Dr roy ozzy coban canada Dr makepeace dr scott jesse smollet fillon Cindy
Episode 181: Locked Away

Scholars Strategy Network's No Jargon

28:30 min | 1 year ago

Episode 181: Locked Away

"Hi everyone. Just a quick note that we're taking a break next week for fourth of July, but don't worry, we'll be back in your feed the following week. Okay. On today's show. In eighteen ninety the US supreme court called solitary confinement are Barrick speculating that it would be abandoned altogether as a correctional practice. But now nearly one hundred thirty years later, it's clear that their prediction could not have been more wrong. So why is solitary confinement, so widespread and US prisons today? What does this practice mean for prisoners, their communities and society at large, and what can be done to change it? Hi, I'm Lizzie giddy Erlich, and this is the scholar strategy networks. No jargon each week. We discussed an American policy problem with one of the nation's top researchers without jargon for this week's episode is spoke to doctor Kermit writer. She's an associate professor of criminology law and society at the university of California Irvine and the author of the book, twenty three seven pelican bay prison and the rise of long term solitary confinement. Here's our conversation. Doctor, thanks for coming on jargon. Thanks so much for having me. So you study prisons, and in particular the practices solitary confinement. Let's talk about what prison and specifically, what solitary confinement is actually like before we get into a study of some of your actual research, your findings and some of your may be prescriptions. You know what, what is life like in solitary confinement? I think people have an idea of what it's like mostly for a lot of people, probably mostly based on depictions in the media, you know, as opposed to real life, experiences or people in their family. But yeah, tell us what the practice actually is right now. Well, it's often helpful to just imagine I the space, I think, and, you know, the analogies I've heard that I find are helpful are think about a wheelchair accessible bathroom stall. That's about the size of most solitary confinement cells around eight by ten feet and prisoners. Spend twenty three or more hours a day in that space. That's why my book is called twenty three seven twenty three or more hours a day, seven days a week. You know in a typical week if a facility is well run a prisoner would be able to leave the cell, maybe two or three times a week for a shower or to go out to an exercise yard, those yards are often called dog runs kind of as you can imagine, like the space, the space, a tunnel might have they're just a little bigger than the cells, and give people a little bit of access to open air, usually. And that's to say that the rest of the time prisoners in cells that are usually windowless fluorescent lights are usually on twenty four hours a day, depending on the prison system. They may or may not have access to things as simple as a television or radio. So usually if prisoners in solitary, they've behaved for a couple of weeks or months, they might get access to something Mike radio or television. But sometimes they don't even have that, and they have basically no human contact. So people in these conditions. If they need to see a doctor lawyer, sometimes that even happens with the prisoner in a cage at best, they'd have handcuffs on their hands and feet often with their hands cuffed to their waste also. And if a family member, does visit them often these places are incredibly far away from urban areas. But if family member is able to visit that visit would be behind glass, so there would be no contact in that context either. So those are kind of just gives you a basic sense of, of the conditions. It can talk more specifically about it too, if that raises other questions. Yeah. Well, I mean the way you described it. And again, I think this is may be drawing on things. I've picked up in media that may not be true. Is that it is it sounds as, if a person who would be subjected to that would have to be deeply violent to, to warrant that kind of treatment. What is what are people who go into solitary confinement? Actually, like you know what times types of crimes? They've committed is there are there things about that population that hold true across the population or is there, much more variety than that. So people end up in solitary confinement in a number of ways of the same. That's most important to understand about these conditions are that prisoners, get sent there based on in prison behavior at administrative decisions. So no one has sent to solitary confinement by judger jury the conditions of your confinement in prisoner determined by prison administrators based on often risk assessments behavior in prison, and that's important. Because sometimes, I think, oh, you commit a series of violent crimes in your son, automatically to salivary that doesn't really happen. So then what do people do in prison that to get sent there, one of two things happens? First person might break, imprison Brule, and be sent to solitary for fixed period of time. Like maybe they have a weapon or they participate in a fight. And usually in that case they'd be through an administrative hearing assigned to solitary for anywhere from a few weeks to a few. Months to sometimes in extreme circumstances, a few years. But that's not the kind of solitary that has gotten so out of control in the United States, that's often called disciplinary segregation, the kind of solitary. It's become really. I often argue overused is called administrative segregation, and that's when someone gets into solitary bas- basically on their status. Their label dangerous by the prison system. So they get a scientist solitary often indefinitely and this was happening. California was up until recently, one of the most common users of this practice, in California, people got validated, his gang members, so that was an administrative process that only required three pieces of evidence in their prison file, and that evidence could be as, as simple as the kinds of tattoos. They had the people. They were writing letters to hanging out with the things they were reading, basically anything we outside of present think of a first amendment right in prison in California. Three of. Those first amendment assertions could've landed you in solitary confinement indefinitely. And that's what happens in a lot of when people get stuck in these conditions for a long time through various processes. They've been labelled as dangerous often as gang members got it. And so, you know, you've been working with folks who have had this be a part of their prison. Stay in a part of their lives. Can you tell us about someone who was in solitary confinement, and how it ended up affecting them? And then maybe we can use that to pivot into sort of general effects one I write about in my book. A prisoner named Renee in Rica's, who was associated with the Mexican mafia. So a major gang in California and presented gang spent decades in solitary confinement. He's may be more what people the kind of person people would imagine might end up in solitary rate. He's someone who admits he was gang member. And he was he was a leader. He describes in some ways, you know, the conditions over over years, really changed his relationship to, to the gang into himself. Off and he automatically began to work really closely with gang investigators and FBI in order to visit in prison. Slang this is called snitching but, but he debriefed basically, right? He said, I don't want to be a member of the game anymore. I wanna I wanna kinda help this system work against these gangs. So that's one story. Right. That someone who may be wasn't there merely because he had the wrong tattoo. But then another person I write about in my book, I called, Johnny. He was someone who went to prison. He actually went to present with a life without parole sentence when he was very young. He was a teenager when he was sentenced. So these are the kinds of sentences that are now being called into question in the United States, and he joined a gang in prison in part for protection or, or the prison system, alleges he joined a gang often is very disputed know what, what constitutes joining a gang in how high up where you, but he was someone who had the kinds of touches that suggested he was a member of a gang and he was sentenced to. He was he was assigned to celebrate. Because of that, because of the tattoos in who was associated with. And he's been more than a decade in, in term solitary confinement. Pelican bay California's name supermax that I write about. Wasn't able to touch his sister for years. So I got to know his sister, actually when he was resentenced from his life, without parole sentence, and not able to touch, you're not able to give his nieces and nephews who were born while he was imprisoned hug until more than a decade later. So those kinds of things, I think give you a sense of just the day-to-day depravities, that people experience in these conditions running in Rica's rates about not having seen the moon or an animal for years at a time in how amazing it is to, to just see even prisoners about how amazing to see a an aunt or spider in your cell or if you happen to see a bird fly overhead when you're out in the exercise yard, that, that just is become such an important moment. And I think that's speaks to how restrictive these conditions are. I can also see that someone from the perspective of maybe someone in law enforcement who. Thinks that these practices are fulfilling a purpose and necessary to hear the story of, of, of Rene and say, well, this person wasn't solitary for decades, and they ended up helping you know, the police essentially dismantle again and turning against what could have been, you know, violent way of life. So how is that what we want isn't that what this is supposed to do? Well, there are a few answer to that one is that there aren't very many Rene Rica's is in the prison system, even though we had attended the prison system is filled with them, right? There aren't that many top gang leaders by definition. And so I often, try to separate the conversation between, you know, we have to think about the difference between the guy who has the wrong tattoo, who went to prison when he was seventeen or eighteen or nineteen and had no way to even maintain his own safety. And the guy who went to prison in stablest, gang member. And so, I think one really important thing and states that are engaging in reforms have done. This is just to say, okay, we're over using this practice and let's make sure that we don't have anyone who. Has the wrong tattoo isolation for fifteen twenty years. And so that's one piece. Another piece is just thinking about the durations of this confinement. That putting someone in these conditions for five ten fifteen years is, is really extremely United Nations says that more than thirty days can constitute cruel inhuman, degrading treatment, if not torture, and we're talking about ten times that in many cases, and then we do have a really difficult population of people of which, you know, some might argue Renee in Rica's Representative, and there we have to think about well is this working for them? And one thing to say about someone like Rene is for a long time he was able to maintain his leadership of the game from within solitary confinement. Even in spite of all of the restrictions on his conditions in his communication in so one really important question about these practices. Well, okay, maybe sometimes people ultimately debrief and help law enforcement, but in between right in between those fifteen to twenty years that person in. In solitary homeless. Are we spending on that practice and was keeping us safe inbetween, right? And the evidence is really thin on, whether it's working in between, even if in the rare case, you automatically get is outcome that some law enforcement might argue was what they were angling for. It's pretty, you know, we're talking about in California, eighty thousand dollars more per person per year to keep someone in these conditions of confinement. That's a lot of time in money on a gamble that we haven't studied very well for sure. And you know, you've mentioned how this is really a growing trend. We set at the top of the episode, you know, there's this history of cream court saying, really don't think this is going to be around for awhile in, so it's interesting to see how that did not happen. And in your book, you, you know, you take care, too short the resurgence of the practice. So can you tell us about, you know, was there? What was that pivot point win? Did we see solitary confinement, making such a comeback, all your in my book that solitary? But, you know, when we see solitary confinement again comeback most obviously, is just as part of mass incarceration. So in the nineteen eighties states started sentences gang longer, where people are being sent to prison state started building more prisons. So over the course of the eighties nineties, California, for instance where where my research is based in which has been a leader in this phenomenon for better or worse, California, twenty three new prisons over over this period. And so one way, people have understood solitary confinement. It was it was just part of this massive expansion in criminal Justice system happening over the eighties nineties, but argue that we have to look a little more deeply historically to understand the practice ended its really rooted in unrest in prisons in the nineteen seventies so to really important events that people talk about are the uprising at Attica in nineteen seventy one and also the death of George Jackson who was a bestselling author at the time. Well known. Radical some argued associated with the Black Panthers also in nineteen seventy one in California. So those are just two events. Both in nineteen seventy one on either coast of the US Representative of other kinds of unrest, happening across prisons in the US that prison officials saw as very racially charged. They saw people as organizing to, to change prison conditions in organizing along racial lines and often prison officials terrorize those organizers as gang affiliates, and it was following those events. That institutions were locked down meeting people were kept in their cells indefinitely. And that's what the new solitary confinement, prisons, supermax is like pelican bay in California or eighty x federal supermax best, those institutions were built to institutionalize to physically create a space could maintain these lockdowns permanently in response to this unrest in the prisons. Okay. And so how widespread. Red than is the use of solitary confinement these days. Like do we know what proportion of cells out of supermax prison like how, how do you quantify that? So I always love this question, because it's such a nice chance to talk about how little we know about confinement, even though it's a practice we've been investing millions of dollars in for decades now. So there's actually debase about how many people are in solitary confinement across the United States. In what proportion of cells are used for this practice. That's because America basically has fifty one state prison systems, not to mention all the jails, so every, so every state has a different system, and then there's the federal system and everyone has their own labels and practices in policies. And so these kinds of things, especially practices, like solitary confinement that tend to be hidden both because they're so criticized and because it's literally a prison within a prison ended administrative process. It's really hard to get consistent information across states. But the latest estimates are. Are that around eighty thousand people across the United States or in these conditions of confinement? There's been some great work out of Yale, the law school in collaboration with professional associations of correctional administrators to try to really get a better handle on, on these numbers track this and generally estimate. I give is in any prison system. It's often around five percent of the prison population in these kinds of conditions, and of course, one of the prisons, that does have a lot of solitary confinement cells is pelican bay in California. That's the prison from the title of your book. Tell us a bit about that prison. It's particular history, pelican bay opened in the late nineteen eighties with a thousand fifty six beds designed for long term solitary confinement. This is prison on California's northern border. With Oregon kind of northern most rural reaches of state. So this is a place hard to get to where when prisoners get fed up there. They're being rated takes a good six seven. Hours from San Francisco and ten or twelve from Los Angeles prisoners are being set up there, not for a couple of weeks. They're kind of being, you know, people might even you abandoned up. There says prison opens in nineteen eighty nine and prisoners are sent there from across the state of the time and some of the prisoners who were sent their never left. So, you know, pelican bay opens in nineteen eighty nine and in the early two thousands. There's hunger strikes there and it comes out there more than five hundred prisoners who've been at pelican bay from more than ten years continuously in the kinds of conditions. I described at the beginning of our conversation. The denim is that there's been litigation in California, major reforms since I wrote my book and pelican bay is slowly being converted to a minimum security prison. A journalist recently sent me a picture of prisoners painting, a beautiful landscape garden. Euro on the solid concrete wall that prisoners used to stare at for. For years at a time under these fluorescent lights on the, you know, the just the visuals space is changing, and it's purposes changing the state is trained to reduce its reliance on long-term solitary. So knowing what we know about the criminal Justice system in how it can be discriminatory against certain groups of people. Do we see that play out in who's put in solitary confinement as well? You know, you talked about some of the different criteria that administrators used for deciding whether individual prisoner goes into solitary, but does that end up looking different for different racial groups say, how does that play out with the entire California prison population? Absolutely. I often say that I think prisons are really interesting to study because they're like a magnifying glass of social problems around raised in education in healthcare inequality. I think solitary confinement is especially interesting to study because it's a even further magnifying glass on our prisons and so, you know when you talk about who's in solitary, it's often. The most difficult people from across the prison system, whether that's people who are not mentally healthy or people who are members of gangs, or people who just don't fit transgender people pregnant women end up in solitary confinement, because it's not clear else in this system, you put them. And so just as our prisons have disproportionate racial impact in BC that depending on the state more Africans and more, Latinos tend to end up more African Americans and Latinos, send end up in business than in our population that is manifested again in solitary confinement. So in California, the majority of people in solitary confinement, are Hispanic as the state labels Latinos, and the state explains, that, that seems like it's discriminatory on its face state explains, that saying the gangs, they're most concerned about our Latino gangs. So it makes sense that those are the people who end up in solitary confinement. But when you look across the US where people have been able to get data study this, it looks like solitary confinement is even more ratio. Disproportionate than our prisons systematically across the country. So it does raise concerns about whether this practice is discriminatory. And then, of course, there's a problem that at least to me was a bit less. Obvious is not something I thought about before engaging with your work, which is how folks are released from solitary confinement. Again, I think, because of this idea that someone in solitary confinement is maybe a violent criminal who is there for maybe not getting out of prison at all. You know, you don't think about these other in prison infractions, or maybe the sort of other arbitrary reasons for why someone is being housed there. But it turns out people are being released directly. Sometimes from solitary confinement when their terms on can you can you tell us about that? And what that impact would be on reintegration. Absolutely. And this was something I hadn't thought about for I started doing this. It's actually one of my favorite stories from my research. Is that I needed information request to the California Department of corrections trying to understand really basic things about. Who was in solitary confinement like age in the race things we've been talking about why they were there how long they spent their this was before the hunger strikes. And the data came out about the effect that there were these five hundred people who'd been there more than ten years. So I was trying to get that kind of information and the state didn't have it readily available, one of the interesting things they told me was, they founded beds, not people in so they could tell me if cell was full or not. But they had trouble telling how long especially over time how long people were sending in solitary and, and so instead, they gave me this outta simple. What we do is we could for people who've been released we could say, how long they've been there. And so why don't we give you dad on that relation? And then they provided the data to Munich turned out that around one hundred people a months in some years, recovering directly out of solitary confinement onto the streets of California. That was something I never imagined was happening even understanding the system, right? That prisoners writers were sending people to solitary, and so win their sentence expired, they'd have to be released because. Principals can't keep someone on their sentence, even if they have labeled them dangerous. So even understanding that I was surprised by the scale of this problem at to me, it's, it's a really important example of why we have to study these kinds of hidden places and studied them with really open ended questions because I didn't even know that was a question I needed to be asking about what that experience is like, once I had that data, I've ended, the work to try to interview people who'd had that experience. So to try to find former prisoners who had been released directly from solitary confinement onto the streets, as you can imagine. It's pretty her find these people, first of all, as, as we sort of hinted at it spending as long solitary confinement can have serious, psychological consequences, including, especially not being that excited to meet you, people are being unfamiliar places, and being pretty socially disconnected. So the people I was able to find an interviewer people who were really, truly the survivors, who, who were socially connected enough, it when I reached out to reentry organizations, instead, I'm interested in this popular. Mission. They followed up with knee. We make actions and people talk about, you know, even even years after being released struggling with the consequences of the years spent in solitary confinement, one of one of the most consistent things I hear is that people to people who survived develop incredibly rigid routines, get up at five AM, I do establish end pushups. Situps jumping jacks, so rigid, exercise routine. You know, a clean my cell from from Florida ceiling almost compulsively, and those they talk about this revived by relying on that routine, and they get out in have. Trouble letting go that is still get up at five in the morning. Do that intense, exercise routine one have total control over the cleanliness of, of their space in their interactions. Because that's a way they can maintain themselves when, when they didn't have other options. We reach the part of the show where we'd like to focus when possible on solutions at next steps given your research, and especially with. Some of this new information coming out of California specific to the site that you used for your data collection. Where do we start with reforming this system? What do you think needs to change? I what do you think needs to be changed at all? Because again, I'm thinking, we know the high costs we know these psychological effects and we also can see why from certain viewpoints. I mean, there might be people working inside the system where people who think a certain way about criminal Justice generally who say, yeah, I mean too bad. But what else do you suggest right? And this is this is where the story gets, perhaps a little more hopeful than the one, I was able to tell in my book, because of the drastic reforms that have happened over the past few years across the United States around this practice. So one thing that I think is central to understanding reforming the practice is transparency and oversight and simple. You know, it shocking the California ten years ago when I started this research. Couldn't tell me how many people had been in solitary confinement. How long over south over pelican Bay's existence an I'm a researcher. And so when I say, we need more data, it's somewhat self interested. But I think that the story of pelican bay actually shows the incredible power of data in social change. So when those prisoners got together and started refusing food to protest the conditions of their confinement. Pelican bay people started paying attention, and it was at that moment that a journalist said, okay, maybe you don't have the data about historically, how long over time, people have been here, but can you tell me today? How many people at pelican bay have been more than ten years in the prince at? Oh, yeah. Today. They're five hundred people who've been there more than ten years, just snap shot data and that single piece of evidence about those five hundred people, but came the impetus for class action case that group of five hundred prisoners within within a year was certified as class to challenge the conditions of their confinement, and especially the process by which they were. Place there indefinitely. Can you place us? I can you just say when the suit took place, I think we missed the time period that we're talking about. Yes. So the first hunger strike at Hellequin bay was in two thousand eleven and then in two thousand twelve it was, so it was the lead plaintiff in the class, action case was was a man named hot Ashqar. And so it's, it's known as the Ashqar case, and he was one of these five hundred guys who'd been there more than ten years, they were certified as a class at the net that litigations actually still ongoing because the state, although all of those guys are now out of pelican bay and many of them are in general population across California. There's still questions about whether prisoners are being locked down kind of in the seventies style, what, you know, whether they're actually getting enough time out of their cell in how much conditions have changed, but, but pelican bay at least a change in many of these guys have experienced improvements in their conditions again as a result of this, this moment of having access to data bows of. The prisoners raising awareness of what their conditions were like through their through their own organizing, and that being a moment where it was public pressure to let journalists in actually see this place was like the United Nations special repertoire torture commented on pelican bay at the time as a result of those hunger strikes. Let journalists in for the first time in years. And that kind of light and data data we were able to get about the institution of light that was able to be shed on it. I think really was an important piece of the change that we saw similarly, the data, I got about how people are released directly from solitary new, you can imagine that the, the social response being on my God. Let's not release them, but another responses, ninety five percent or more of all prisoners, eventually get out. And if we know they're gonna come home and be our neighbors. Maybe we wanna think more carefully about how we treat them in the interim. And I think that has been more Representative of the social response around knowledge, that many states release people directly from solitary, even in Colorado, where a guy was released directly from Sal. -tary and actually murdered the very progressive reform oriented director of the state prison system that became a for reforming, Colorado to where they said, okay, we've got a we've got a reduce our reliance on solitary. Make sure there's transition programs for these kinds of people not saying, like will, let's make sure we never let any of them out because can have a growing sense that, that's just not a viable policy. Thank you so much for, for sharing your research, on your thoughts with us. Of course, it's, it's been really interesting talking with you. Thanks for your great questions. And thank you for listening from Dr raiders research. Check out our show notes scholars dot org slash note. Jargon, as always know jargon, is the podcast, the scholars strategy, network nationwide, association of over thirteen hundred researchers and forty seven states, the producer of our show is Dominic Dermot, and our sound engineer is jammed bias. And if you like today's show subscribe and rate us on apple podcasts or ever, you get your shows, you can give us feedback on Twitter at new jargon podcast or our Email address no jargon at scholars dot org.

California United States pelican bay pelican bay prison Representative Rene Rica Pelican bay California university of California Irvin United Nations Rica Renee writer California Department of corre associate professor FBI Barrick Lizzie Hellequin bay
U.S. Projects 240,000 Deaths With Mitigation

Coronavirus

06:11 min | 10 months ago

U.S. Projects 240,000 Deaths With Mitigation

"The White House projects to hundred and forty thousand corona virus. That's a thirteen year old boy in the UK dies from the virus and Amazon fires in employees who led a protest for protective equipment. Hello everyone and thanks for tuning into the latest Corona Virus Global News the global debt soul has now surpassed forty two thousand eight hundred fifty thousand confirmed cases. White House current Avars Task Force Members. Deborah bricks and Anthony fell seat painted a grim picture for the country. Projecting it up to two million. Americans will die from CORONA VIRUS IF NO PUBLIC. Mitigation efforts are employed. President Trump added on to say that it's going to be a very painful two weeks ahead. I want every American to be prepared for the hard days that lie ahead. We'RE GONNA go to a very tough two weeks and then hopefully as the experts are predicting as I think. A lot of us are predicting having studied it. So hard going to start seeing some real light at the end of the tunnel but this is going to be a very painful very very painful two weeks when you look and see at knife the kind of death that's been caused by this invisible enemy. It's it's incredible. I was watching last night. Governor Murphy of New Jersey say twenty nine people died today meaning yesterday and others talking about numbers far greater. But you get to know a state. I Know New Jersey. So well and you twenty nine people and Hundreds and other locations hundreds and other states even with strict social distance in measures employed across the country. The White House projects that up to two hundred and forty thousand people will die from Krona virus making it the third leading cause of death the task force expects to see that the peak will be on April fifteenth with over two thousand fatalities on that day is significant number of daily deaths will continue into at least July the US broke a record of seven hundred and forty-two that's in the last twenty four hours topping four thousand fatalities and more than two hundred thousand confirmed cases. The state of Louisiana is quickly becoming a hotspot as more than twelve hundred. New cases have been recorded in one day. More than fifty people have died from the virus in the last twenty four hours increasing the state's battle. Two hundred thirty nine Louisiana Governor John. Bel Edwards said Monday that he will extend the state's stay at home order through the end of April New York City mayor. Bill de Blasios has pleaded the nation for assistance as more than one thousand people have died from Colonel Virus in Manhattan. More than five hundred paramedics. Two thousand nurses and two hundred and fifty ambulances are heading to New York City from across the country to assist with the crisis New York state accounts for roughly forty percent of cases in the US. The mayor has asked the White House. For One thousand nurses three hundred and fifty respiratory therapists and one hundred fifty doctors from the military and the Reserves California will release as many as three thousand five hundred inmates as part of an ongoing effort to limit crowding in Prisons Corona virus outbreak. The plan was announced by the California Department of Corrections State. Additionally implemented a supervision of intake by county prisons estimating the inmate population could be cut by as much as three thousand and the next thirty days. The early release protocol applies I to those serving for nonviolent crimes. A thirteen year old boy who tested positive for coronavirus has died any south London hospital. He is the youngest person to have died with virus in the UK. The boy had no apparent underlying health conditions and tested positive for Kobe. Nineteen on Friday a day after he was admitted to the hospital Saturday. The child died without any family members. Close by due to the highly infectious nature of the virus. The boy's death marks a devastating reality that no one is spared by cove nineteen the UK has increased. Its enforcement of the national. Stay at home order. Police have been criticised though for filming people by Drones Stopping and questioning shoppers and issuing citations for minor acts the UK. Now has more than twenty five thousand confirmed cases and one thousand. Seven hundred and eighty nine fatalities. Russian President Vladimir Putin has threatened harsh crackdowns for those who violate the country's new quarantine and stay at home orders. The new measures banned public gatherings and order the closure of non essential businesses. Violators in the country. Could face up to seven years in prison. The measure comes as Russia reported five hundred new cases in the last twenty four hours. Putin also met with a doctor who tested positive for the virus last week conspiracy theories about Kobe. Nineteen are also spreading in Russia some claiming that the US government created the virus as a bio weapon and lastly Amazon has fired in assistant manager out there. Staten Island facility. After the employees led a protest where workers voiced concerns over current ivars protections. Protesters demanded the warehouse to be shut down and cleaned after an employee at facility tested positive Amazon. Terminated the assistant manager for violating social distancing guidelines by attending the protest Amazon says the employee was supposed to be under quarantine because he had a close contact with a diagnosed associate. New York attorney. General Latisha James commented on the issue. Saying it's disgraceful. The Amazon were terminating employees. Who Bravely stood up to protect himself and his colleagues. This has been your latest global news from Corona Virus Dot FM. Subscribe to this podcast on cast box and follow us on twitter at coronavirus. Fm for the latest news. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

Amazon White House US New York City Vladimir Putin UK UK New Jersey Kobe assistant manager Louisiana Russia Avars Task Force Members President Trump Deborah bricks White House California Department of Corre Governor Murphy twitter California
Us and Them

Ear Hustle

1:01:08 hr | 10 months ago

Us and Them

"I'm Adam Foster prosecutor impact and this episode of Ear. Hustle contains language that may not be appropriate for all listener's discretion is advised subnational poor. Hey Hey how doing good. So we're social distancing. I'm recording in my closet and recording yours and we're talking to each other on zoom. So how's your closet working for you? Well is bigger place. They had me in San Quinn glass. Well I'm going to say I'm actually glad I have bought all these clothes. Because I think they're keeping the echo down history record and you know you told me. About photo mapping so I'm looking at all those shoes behind. Ch- God I'm so embarrassed I have I think about thirty. Six pairs but thirty six pairs is not bad. You don't think it's that bad. No not at all. I got about that right now. Only been out how long God and just over a year and it's taken me more than half a c note in years together shoes. Yes so that's not bad at all. I really appreciate your support okay. Let's get to something a little bit more important than shoes. Even though shoes I think are important. So runner on this week or a line right. No New York just you and me in our closets. That's right now and we're GONNA get to this week's episode and a few minutes but first we wanted to update you a bit on what's been going on inside during this pandemic at the time. We're recording this March. Twenty seven all. The San Quentin is on modify program. Meaning a lot of blocks lockdown down. So New York can't get down to the media lab but we did get a call from him last week on March. Eighteen backed in his cell block wasn't on lockdown. By that time all visits to California prisons had stopped. Volunteers like me weren't allowed in either. So all education and all other programming done for the time being New York told us dad to protect one vulnerable population and sank win. They were moving people around forty five yards per each unit moving to not block from each unit. I for everybody sixty telling them to sell corentin And it's up to them to listen. I Kee- I keep getting you look off the phone line seconds remaining six when I tried to call back. That's not good. Look what are you doing building? I'm writing I got Serena writing to do for school. And also some transcripts to transcribe and I got a pile of books. I never read that. I've been meaning to read. That's actually read right now. I'M GONNA get some rest. He keeps calling US getting this line and use my one poll tall man y'all man. I love sacrifice. It's all good. It's all guys get back in line but then like long. Yeah well if there's other more important go goodbye just cut off to just go back and that was actually the last. We've heard from New York right after that call. His cell block was locked down to so no one. There could use the phone but I have been here from guys. I know in different institutions. I got a call recently from a friend in the L. A. County Jail America's third up at California State Prison in May for the last twenty plus years out of California through strikes law Fifty five years life and Forced out fraternities To be recommended by the secretary of CD CR rafting years to have my citizen calls. We were shit that happened today. Twelve years given time served so was going to be the first thing you do man when you hit brakes gave out or number work. Can I get tired whereas nobody to care about can't go there? I got to come back with this as wrong for an obvious. It out as you have pointed share the futures expects to get any day and obviously he's returning to the outside world at a pretty crazy time right. He told me to corona virus is going to affect his return in some very particular ways especially for this lots a couple of days and being circulated around a bunch of people who don't have the best of systems are so. I'm not sure if I'm either being around people who have been exposed to this A lot of our tennis tool employed people in my life one of my grandmothers for dinner eighties that I'm Flyby fearful of being able to enjoy or share my joy with her not knowing if I have been exposed to this also I have a granddaughter Natalie was born days ago is simply someone. I'm GonNa have to stay away flow for you know a little bit new coordinated mommy phenomena who served two hundred ten years to life as saying. Quinn has a commutation. Just waiting on the governor's signature and now this pandemic has him fucked up being acculturated. Twenty four years. I would love to argue continues to live at one time. Still in hopeless. Got Hope Cathedrals chain however if daily Virus going around Dale on on a diet. You think about that. You'll get Tom. You know you know if we look at of prophecy these in real property to like you know a more law that causes wipe out everybody. You know it's like pain. I hope they can locker subject. He was going to fail. Because you know. Social distancing is kind of hard in their apart. We'll go you go. You got sick. Speak only side is continuing fairly go. Hey would you can't do social differences. We also talked to me. Galaxy FUENTES BEFORE WEST. Block block down. We asked him with the mood was like in. They're kind of like a helpless. Seen right because as you can't do anything and then people go about the daily lives right. Even though we can't go to groups people still hang out on the tier. They're still on the bars like we used to do right in front of the sale. You know people laugh laugh and trump all the time to talk. Crazy is right like denise though fear fear for our loved ones out there is some fear about. What are you doing here? And your telephone number monitored and recorded you know hundreds of people getting a matter of a couple of days. You know on the first few tears. There's on every lower bunk is older guy you know in the sixties with the chain of events and has several underlying. They seem like they can't go and you're right. There's I think eight to ten days in the hospital and by the time they have symptoms probably salaciously like we said we're record no march twenty seven and as of today the California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation says is tested about two hundred incarcerated people so far one person someone in Lancaster in southern California has tested positive for covy at nineteen. All right. We're going to try to keep you posted on what's happening is his pandemic plays out. But meanwhile let's get to this week show which was produced long before the corona virus. Shut everything down when New York and I could still work record together in the media lab. Let's do it. What do you call the? Oh what do people in Prison Coast Ios five? Hot Water slaps turn keys when police pulls up on. You like forum together I call it gangrene. He's got gangrene. You are now tune in era so from PR XS radio. I am Rozan New York Thomas. A resident of San Quinn State Prison in California and NATO poor today. We're talking about relationships with correctional officers. We call them to Gilligan's Gook through pluck their own clock is every now and then and to spend his dad. Ceo's are huge presence in the life of cartridge men and women and we wanted to know more about what guys in San Quentin felt about them is an acronym police in Green I call them citizens. I call them officers when I talked to righteous ones crushing officer. Sir. I'll be talking with New York on the inside and with early on on the outside airline interviewed a formerly incarcerated person. Who did the unthinkable? He don't give away that. Let's later in the episode. You guys gotta wait. But it was so unthinkable. He went talk about it publicly until he was out of prison. They call him a lot of things man but bridges police. You know what I mean. They just pulled me. They've been a lot of things in my taste but healthcare workers are currently facing a dire shortage of masks and other personal protective equipment. They are fighting for our lives and we need to protect. There's if you have make or want to request P P please visit get us. P P DOT ORG. Healthcare workers are currently facing a dire shortage of masks and other personal protective equipment. They are fighting for our lives and we need to protect. There's if you have make or want to request P please visit get us p. p. e. dot org so mom before we even begin. I got a special request was a special request. I personally don't call people in prison. Inmates so can I get columnist. Concentrated people when they when it comes up long silence. Now I may help. I remember because your was inmates for about twenty five years. It costs related peoples incarcerated people. Yup Okay Awesome at People's all right New York. I can never get over this. Your mom was actually a CEO. She was a CEO in New York City on rikers island and she retired three star chief two levels from the top to really went up in the chain there. She was way so she was actually a CEO. When you and your brother were growing up yeah but we never talked about it now when I was a kid. Not When my little brother started getting in trouble with the law. Not even when we were both on rikers island. Wait a minute. You're saying that when you were records island your mom was also working there. Yup But because we're family members they would keep me in a different building but she definitely was a captain around that time. I didn't realize that she worked at the same time you were there. I never thought you crossed over. Yeah even all these years since I've been in prison. We didn't talk about it until recently when we call it from the media that that was the first time we had a conversation about it and she was at home in Queens. She told me what it was like to be working as a seal when me and my brother we get arrested and she told us that she was working in corrections as a courtesy. When either you or your brother got arrested. Somebody from the jail would actually call her and tell her we're building we were in. The few calls was upsetting after that. It was annoying because I didn't want to be disrespectful to the person that was calling me but I wanted to tell him a lot of things. Well my two sons victims. They are volunteers so volunteers. Your mom meant that you and your brother had advantages that she didn't see other kids in the neighborhood having yet we took those for granted and so on or is that made crimes inexcusable. Grounded was hard but unlike some of the people in Brownsville. Who have parents that were on? Crack in jail dinette. Food in the House didn't have the clothing they needed. You're in a student average in made in jail. Fifth Grade Reading Level. That in the plot to you or your brother. You didn't understand what you had compared to other incarcerated people okay. Your mom is one tough person. She had to be tough. She was playing the role of my mom. And my dad. Plus she was a seal rikers island. Which is a freaking zoom especially back in those days and so now my conduct embarrassing Nacho. But she had to worry about me every time somebody got attacked trillion and that happened a lot and she's probably wondering was I- victim was perpetrator and so she had to be tough man just like keep them wearing the stuff to death. Ever see you cry or get upset about his behavior. No because usually when the York whenever really see it too much because I'm coming down to a courthouse or to jail so as a correction person. You're not crying in jail with you. Officer captain whatever. I'm not going to the end crying from the other offices and I'm generally not gonNA cry in the courthouse so I'm going to cry at home when we're going to hear a bit more from your mom later but let's get to the experienced that guys here in the California prison system had with CEOS and let's start with the battle days when things between CEO's and prisoners costs Serrated People Nigel incarcerated people point taken when things between CEO's and incarcerated people were really pretty brutal if the CORCORAN PRESENT. Atmosphere was US against them. You know it was us against them. This isn't person. Waymo mobely talking about a prison and in the nineties. One of the most notorious in California is so just so much violets. We not only have staff that was against us. So is this during the time the legendary Time Inc. ranging cockfights and yes author that just shooting the building. That was a likely possibility and I think that several times shooting in the building New York. Yeah wasn't uncommon between one thousand nine hundred eighty nine and nineteen ninety five fifty people incarcerated at Corcoran was shot. Seven fatally and what about cockfights yet? I cock vice a winner. Seals would let two groups of incarcerated people being the same place at the same time. They're gonNA fight so intentional intentionally setting up a fight like wow. Can that really happen before me at that particular time right there? That's just another day in the office. You thought we was no room for era so we were always on point back in the day. There was another kind of intentional fight. But this one was actually between CEO's and incarcerated men. I heard that there was a time in prison. Where guys in CEO's would agree to fight and Co would take off. His Buddy called his age and is true. This is I've experienced it. This is Ralph Teddy. Brookes he did time in eighty s and then he returned to prison in Nineteen Ninety S. Because I thought I was a little tough dude. At one time. You know back in eighty six being an officer. We kept having arguments. He might get caught tearing up my sale. You know stripping me out just humilate me so I remember the punt ill. Let's go up in here and deal with this. It was in a stairwell according to a few times and one day. He took his badge up. Couple offices did outside to where that we both went in with the same attitude that you don't Cam so yeah I'm not going to back down from you started throwing blows to you know one of us gave up. When does it end though? I mean there must be so much adrenaline in lake. But she's no feeling this was in. Okay we're good. We're good is good. You know fighting to bring jaws of bus no noses. Yeah that's one thing that's weird had about violence like the mutual respect that can come back will and then do you understand. I worked on standing. I understand how it works. It works you know you call me out and I'll say let's go and we'd go. There's going to be a lot of respect there because you showed me that you more mannered him. Would you show me by you? Just talk it. We couldn't cooperate this particular incident. It took place a longtime ago but we did learn that fights like these between CEO's and incarcerated guys did take place on occasion. I'm Linden my box. Like five o'clock in the morning and here comes warn K. W. plenty which way into the word he like. You know what you want me. To open up the tray slide now and he's telling me cough up. This is Charles Achmad Iran in one thousand nine hundred five he was in cal- Patrick State Prison in Southern California. He was an east coast crip and that morning the warden wasn't just getting him out of his cell. He was rounding up. All of the members of that gang and toss had no idea why we get down to the front of the building and distributes all right then given jumpsuits. They got the bus right at the gate on the yard. A bus pulling up on a yard is highly unusual. Normally everyone gets processed through the receiving room so in this case something was really up so get on the bus. If thirty six of US he gets on the bus to sergeant and he says look man. I'M NOT IN. A regular sergeant. He said I worked for the director of corrections. He said you guys all going to Corkman shoe pending investigation. Here's what was happening in Calla Patriot. Eight CEOS had been stabbed by five east coast crips and luckily no-one died. But it set off a crazy chain of events that later made headlines All the East Coast crips in Calla Batra even the gospel other yards. Who could not have been involved in a stabbing? We'll put on a six hour bus. Ride the Corcoran when they arrive. Charles realized what was about to happen. And it's like eighty cops out there to get the day name tags covered up to got the gloves on. Got Towels around their next out. Shallow boxing stretching when the bus stop she knew we tell them. I look me. We already know what time it is. A main take the cuffs off. And we just let it happen hot happen you don't want to do. This was not going to be a cockfight. Don't know was it going to be a fair fight between a con incarcerated man now the CEO's had something else in mind so sergeants from Cork reneged on the bus and one of them says which one of these big bad east coast crips is. Data's and other point at my boy trip box he say Guillaume you know he's got the biggest mouth he's one it's been all the talking right when they get him off. The bus autumn cops rushing. I mean it's like a swarm all around him some like they how they do in the home so now realization. Hit Me that. This probably was going to happen to me and it did happen to Charles. His leg irons were taken off. He was thrown off. The bus swarm by CEO's and beaten. You know that was. That wasn't bad but that was just a star. Seals brought him across the yard and into a building. I walk up into bill in his CAGNEY. Peach him I see him up against the wall like all other breath look like he was hurt. I'm not saying that what happened to you. Really turn me up in the room so six cops in the room and the two that brought me so I come up in your first rush. Meteo hit me and then after a while they get smart and they had one big Old Mexican. Do they like let him meet him you know. Here's the hardest. Hit the hardest right so they let him with me for a while right. At at one point I was on the ground and they were stopping. Donald top of my head in fighting a drug body. I couldn't breathe. All air was out of me in gear up on my knees galaxy. I came Reeve after that. They threw him into a cell peach already into sale. Vice Austin on one block he said on other buck and just lay back in a meal. Catch my breath Williams talk. What was the worst ever got my life. This incident made news. There were lawsuits and the men beaten by the CEO's when a settlement the California Department of Corrections took action. Eight of those officers were fired of. Oh after an appeals process. Five were reinstated. This was an EPA case of violence between incarcerated men and CEO's and a tortoise incident but it has to be said that aggression between CEO's and the incarcerated is not a one way street it goes both ways and more often than not. It's on a much smaller more intimate scale. Oh you like when you first came to prison. It was like I was a twenty four year old man with the mind of a newborn child. This is Reggie. Here's now forty four years old. It's like I just got pushed out of a wound into a whole nother world. I never been in prison. And I didn't know how to operate in this world. Had A bunch of time fifty years alive? I was as young scared in full of energy and angry. Reggie started focusing his energy and anger on one specific. Co who worked up in a guard tower inside the cell block this CEO was a woman and she carried a semiautomatic rifle. A ruge mini fourteen describing the first time you saw Ms Banke. Oh Wow it was Lou lady man. I think she was life five one five two. She looked like a little kid. I was like it. Was this little blonde lady working in this tower I used to always want to get all marciel initiate. Tell me to go back in. And I'll storm back in this sale and I get mad and I'll start yelling kicking the doors calling her pitches in and she would just look at you. She wouldn't blink sometimes. She just had this year. Like you could see that. She was no nonsense. Can you remember any of the things that you would be yelling at Miss Banke? I'll just really call her a bunch of bitches punt bits bits but just over and over again fuck you year kicking on the doors. But I was doing it for hours of why her because I would imagine. A lot of CEOS enforce those rules but was there something about her it was. I guess it was her stairs. She just look at you with our mini fourteen. And she is just look at you like ESPN for you. Go back to your sale. So yeah what was that. Look Sane t fuck you go back to your sale. You Ain't got nothing coming. I don't care about what you've got going on back to yourself. And it was all the time she was just had steak reclaim recall. She was his look. Gab. When we kick it all the doors you screaming. She had just had his look. Like you're not doing nothing to me. Don't bother me. You know what I'm as you're describing seen in my mind is a very strict mother. Not Giving into child's temperature desk is exactly what she was in. I was acting as knives. I'm talking about kicking and screaming. Like really going ballistic up in that sale right now even thinking about it. It's like dude. You is really fucked up. It was something wrong with me back in. This went on for a long time until Miss. Banke was eventually transferred to a new position. At the she left Reggie slowly cleaned up his act. Basically he grew up grew up and he started behaving better. He started give you a ride up. And after many years of improved behavior and two thousand eighteen he was transferred to a lower level prison and they gave me a job. Assignment to go working vocation and AS Roma way down to my job assignment. I see her. How many years apart from when you were terrorized her too when you saw again probably like fifteen years being. Did you think about it? No I didn't I didn't think about her day and she looks at me and she got this look on our face. It's not the same look that she had. When she was up in tower would steer. She looked at more petrified and she was shocked. She started asking me questions in rapid succession. Like where you doing your where you live at. I'm telling you man. I was overwhelmed because when I seen her face all them days and weeks of kicking on our door and screaming at her just came all in one worse. I told her I was like me. I was at Aso. Had To reassure her that I'm no longer the same person I was back then and it was. It was a blessing being able to see her. She says she hated coming to work. Because of me and I didn't know that lady. She said Dome Years Dasta Tower while he was there was probably my worst years. I ever did work in prison. She she says she used to wake up in the morning and her day was thinking about me. And I gotta go deal with this knucklehead. I don't know if she's all the way hill from that if she's having nightmares. I don't know that Miss Bank is now retired. We got in touch with and receive. She wanted to share her side of the story. But he declined. Astute listeners may have noticed that with the exception of my mom. We haven't heard from any CEO's in his episode which is all about. Ceo New York. That is crazy. And I've got to say that we have been trying for years to get to talk to us and we've only gotten like one or two and it's just been brief right previous episodes and even if they're retired like Miss Banke still talk. It's really tough now. The only exception so far has been mom. Your mom was a fulfilling job. And if so what was fulfilling about it. Okay most CEOS I would say thinks is the worst job almost ever while they're working it and thinking the best job ever when you're retired that'd be supplements way to put it but actually to a lot of it depends on where you work at once you get out of the housing area with the day to day in May contact. The job is like almost like any other job when she started work. Upfront in an office area. It's not that jail job to you. You providing services for the inmates but your daily contact with them is different and when you meet with them and they're trying to tell you what it is they want. You're trying to tell them how you can. Maybe give them what they want. That you have a different report with them. What prison did you start your time at Wasco? And what was the relationship like between incarcerated people and the correctional officers? None there was none whatsoever. It was like if you've seen them you don't even look them in the. I just look down. Look away and Just follow direct orders. Otherwise don't pay any attention to him and don't try to initiate any kind of conversation whatsoever. This is just the air's he's been on the podcast before doing stand up but this story ain't comedy Jesse was transfer from Wasco to apponaug state prison and that just happens to be halfway between San Francisco in La. It also happens to be close to Jesse grew up. That's right. He was practically in his own neighborhood back on a block. This time the cell block in a lot of dudes I knew from school played baseball with football with new from the neighborhood. You know the ones you didn't get into gangs the ones who didn't get locked up you know. They became farmers worked at Walmart. Went to the military. Some of the ones came home from the military. Got Jobs in the Prison Jesse. Thought he might know some of the seals avenue and if he did he plan to mix in a little business with the reminiscent. You know I was still in my criminal behavior at the time. I was still addicted to drugs. And I'm thinking I'm going to win when I see one of my friends. You know I'm GonNa pull up old memories. I'M GONNA use this as leeway to get something brought in and soon enough he found out there was a CEO that he knew when he was fourteen years old so I went over to the podium where he was and I see his name tag and he looked up at me and I was like this shock hit me and I just I called him by his first name. Nice Hey man I just wanted to say hi. And he put his hands up. You know what I mean like I had a gun out or something and he started backing away from me going. Hey I feel uncomfortable. Please step away from me in any signaled his partner and he goes Tell him to get back and his partner told me to get back into my stomach sank. Mardi hi I'm like now feeling sick and I just walked back and I just felt like I must've like a ghost like all the rest out of my face so I went back to my My little door Mary and I could. I just sat there thinking like what's going to happen. What's going to happen? Okay New York. We have talked about this on your hustle before this is a classic case of over familiarity. Yep Prison officials are looking out for any relationship between outsiders in car serrated that might lead to trouble. The problem here is that Jesse might be able to use their shared history to get something out of the officer right drugs. Contraband all kinds of stuff. And the captain calls me. And I'm sitting there. And then they go. Wilson is nothing personal. It's just business. You know next time you see somebody. Keep your fucking mouth shut. They all knew I was trying to get somebody to bring me something Jesse. Now one of his old friend may have been getting back at him for something that happened years ago. The last time I had seen him we were fourteen and we were at his birthday party and it was just kid stuff you know what I mean. He was turning to fourteen and all of his cousin run a room and I hit the lights. I said fourteen seconds. And everybody's just beat on to and after the time round turn the light on looked at me and he was like folk birthday party. My own personal report with officers was basically. I didn't talk to them. They didn't talk to me. When I first came in no trust between the officers. Juan Carlos Mesa has been incarcerated for almost twenty five years. He started off in a maximum security level for prison but when he transferred to Solano a level three things started to change for him for one. He got a prison job. I ended up working for two officers. Um What was offered. Overstreet moves off hunter and they were my bosses. I worked as a porter in the blog so I work every day I come out. I do my job. He asked me to do something I do it. There was never any argument. Then one day this officer pulls me into the office. What's going on what I do wrong? Everything goes on in my head like okay. I'M GOING TO GET BEAT UP. What's going to happen because you know all these stories? We tell ourselves imprisoned like it's about to go down. I'm scared and I'm sitting there and I'm looking at these two officers and they can't like they take good second to pause and then O'Shea goes calm down nothing going on us at. What is this what is going on here is like do you not like working for me? So what do I not like working for you? What do you mean do I not like working for us? Well you you don't ever talk with me or no. I don't talk to cops. I don't trust you. You know y'all set people up in the past and things like this. He looks at me. Goes we'll not all officers are are light that and he goes. We'll just give us a chance. You know so. Carlos did give him a chance and after a while he began to develop a rapport with officer. Overstreet I know this may sound silly but if anybody ever seen like the simpsons where the bully kids like Papa right when he go by count me myself with your Papa but as much as we joked he was really liked that figuring my life because he was older than me. This officer had a bald head and handlebar moustache and he was very much like semi Sam and so many different ways so one time I had these paint set and I had found this cut out of captain crunch hat and I painted all blue with a nice big seon it right it was about say maybe two feet wide. Maybe not want this big little blue hat. I had them this this bag. He's like I don't know what's in the back so just take your man. Take it like what's in the bag. It's all eventually just take. The bag is nothing stupid. Say it takes any has his hat and he's looking at. It looks at me man. Get Out of here you know Fu so roughly about not that day but the next day here comes this officer with this captain crunch had on doing count. Oh that I fell out laughing I didn't ask for but this officers one of the options like got me into who I am today and I think he he really. I don't know what he saw me. Maybe he saw like how I joked with my sally or how I interacted with other people and he felt like why. Do you only put that in one place but he nurtured this this and brought out the side of me that I use now everywhere I go and I really thank them for that because I got me out of the idea of an us and them. This just sounds normal. Human interaction uncle something exactly like we heard from Jesse. There's a lot of risk in any kind of friendly relationship between a CEO and the guys inside because even the appearance of over familiarity can lead to a problem for some guys inside or friendly relationship would a CEO can also look very suspicious right so it's not just the administration that worries about it and not just the administration guys yard like. What are you doing over there? What are you talking about why you talking for that long? What did you feel about other incarcerated people seeing you? Having this relationship with with with correctional officers I used to get like really scared anxious but then I would say to myself. I'm not doing anything wrong. You know the idea is that if I'm talking to officer I must be snitching right. That's why I didn't WanNa talk to St to begin with because what if people think that I'm doing this and I'm not I don't WanNa get stab. I don't WanNA get beat up. I like my face. I don't WanNA rearranged did you. Did you ever run into any problems I did? I ran into problems here and there there are guys like a man you know you sit in that office too much so I would tell them you wanna come sit with me. You want them sitting there. If you want to be there you could be there. I have nothing to hide a lot of good memories. In fact when I left Solano to go to solid at the weirdest thing was he shook my hand and then he put me in for like a hug and it was it was a surreal feeling like I never hugged a cop before and it was just a weird thing in. He was like man. Take Care Yourself be safe and it was a really profound time for me right then and there because growing up the way I did from house to house from city to city I never had any real substantial relationships with men like that and here was one where you know he cared and it was. It was life changing that Ooh Next we're GONNA go outside the prison to talk with another Carlos. This Carlos is a former resident of San Quentin and. He told us about something that happened when he was still incarcerated. Yeah he did not want to talk about it while he was still inside. I guess he feels like there won't be any repercussions for I'll be back with our host Alan Woods after the break. Hello this is Julie Shapiro executive producer of Ear Hustle. Here to tell you about article. Articles furniture is the easiest way to make your space look beautiful and feel comfortable which is especially nice right now when the little things day today mean a lot at my house. We're spending a lot more time in. Our Library. Gathered around our AMOEBA coffee table from article and Reading Harry Potter out loud. Which is definitely helping my family get through this time. The table is sturdy and well-constructed but it's the mid century modern aesthetic that I especially appreciate we also love our article spot table lamps which looked a little like movies spotlights but aren't so blindingly bright instead. 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My place of residence was North. Block one of the housing units. As saying I know and you know what? I'm wondering if you hate it because you were always in the media lab. I think I just hated being locked in confined inside of a building in a sale and I enjoyed the freedom of the media lab the challenge of all the meetings that was cool too but it was the freedom of the media lab. So the story. We're about to hear took place in West Block which is pretty much a carbon copy of north block. Yeah it's like this huge concrete building. There's five tiers in that and I actually have heard. It's bigger than north. Balk though this buff you sales I think when the average person pitcher a prison sale. That's pretty much where West Block looks like and the story. We're about to hear took place in showers of West Park and if there's one place I don't miss is the shower. God Shit was horrific. The water is just flooding sometime. And you gotTA stand initiate new. You're not alone not alone. It's like fifty other do in any case a few years ago Carlos Florez was finishing up his shower and West blog. And here's what happened. My God out of the shower button. I'm naked I came into the world and I'm drying off. Then all of a sudden we had this Vietnam Vet Guy who's on the first tier in West Block is I was missing bad health. You know what I mean still kicking and just one of these things where you look over and nobody was around. Who's this him? There's blood shooting out of the bottom of his leg. Like the inner ankle but massive amounts of it to where he's I hear. Oh God and I look blood spewing out everywhere. What's going on so immediately? I don't know I just grabbed the trash bag. I know how to make attorney gets so I made a tourniquet real quick. I went over naked wrapping his leg up and I'm screaming man down man down and officers come from they come running and they're just standing around like looking at me and then the incomes. Dutton was a sergeant on duty that day in West Block and this guy comes Gung Ho like like no regard for himself and my seeing foolhardy but like very methodical. I can't get out of the way boom took a towel. My brand new towel brand new and compresses this artery that had clearly busted through skin somehow and just holding anyways. I stood back. I was just like. Wow you know blood pumping everywhere on his suit and whatnot and I was like wow. That's crazy this guy is like really into. I could see the concern and the care in his effort for this guy. You see a Lotta Shit in prison. But this incident stuck with Carlos and it took on a new meaning a few years later Sergeant Guavas. And can you tell us about what happened on? What was it April Sixteen Point On march eleven? Two hundred sixty march eleven. Two Thousand Sixteen Well I was assigned to that education department down in lower yard himself. We I remember just like any other ordinary day. I will say Became time to For lunch I go to the Education Center every day. My way into the media lab and it's this one story building with ramp leading up to the door and there's always an officer behind the desk. Yes a pretty cheap place. You know guys hanging out between class taken into little son out on the ramp. I remember it was eating and Somebody came by one. Asked me a question that turnaround To face them and want to probably talk at the same time was I was eating Winston so I was eating riots. The piece of steak remember that is State colored. Got Stuck in my throat. We're till in an all of a sudden cuevas appears like you know flailing in patting his back or something. I kind of went back. I thought he was joking with us. Carlos was hanging out in the education department with his friend is still at San Quentin and he didn't want to be identified in this story. You'll understand why in a minute are couldn't get no not even a little bit of air. Nothing so of course after. You start to panic. Because I couldn't really nothing knows nothing like that. So that's when started patting him on the back like touch like patting him like a baby and I knew something was wrong because you don't touch your CEO. I was really bad again. This time. You know a little bit of a nothing so I kind of feel my knees a little bit because I was ready to pass out so that's where I felt Somebody hit me back really hard. It's one of those moments where you get the sensation of time stopping. You can see everything. Everything instantly slows down. I guess because the senses are heightened and and I walked up behind and I was like. Are you serious and then I just quit buses a big man? I knew I couldn't so he was leaning over the railing with his arms so I just thought give it to him in the back in the middle with my palm and I thought that the officers I never touched the co idea that they were like plates at those jackets. We're GONNA have solid plates. So when I started hitting him I was expecting to like run into place but I ran into you know his back. Actual Kevlar I guess what it is it gives you. I guess it'll stop a knife but I just started hitting him over and over. I wouldn't it be awful if the last thing you saw was the yard at San Quentin. Yes of course you know I will say if you're GONNA die in bed you wanna you WANNA see in. Your mind is the family. You kids somebody like that. Not the lower yard right especially the cirque. Where are you kidding me? It wasn't only officer Cuevas whose life was in danger that day. This whole thing took place on the ramp just outside the education building in full view of armed guards in the watchtowers own the ramp. You're in front of like four towers. Yeah three or four towers and they may not perceive in you. Don't realize that moment afterwards. Afterwards you'll always keeping up at those towers go beyond that one you know directly across from the education but I I was just lucky you know just because it would have looked like I was stabbing him. No doubt it would look like it and he's he flapping around like Gams in my life which is really diet and that motion motion of Budapest. And somebody in the middle of the back. Looks like your bludgeoning them Carlos Correa along with another prisoner basically save cuevas his life and it was big news inside the prison. Yeah it was even written up in Sanguine newspaper But only cuevas was named Carlos. His friend and the other guy didn't want their names in the newspaper because basically they didn't want anyone to know what they had done. Put me in a predicament relate. You aided an officer you know like you help save him. Can you explain the lake? Why were you having uncomfortable feelings? About how because their officers your your prisoner. Don't help them. There's this dividing line you know the there there was this mindset back in the day were were things were very hostile was like division walls existed the bad. I mean really hostile and I unfortunately had it tasted it and it was not cool. Soy Kinda messed with my head helping this guy. It's like it really was kind of like helping the enemy you know and I remember speaking to a couple of guys and I was telling my aunt. Put My name in the paper and like having to be forceful with. Don't put my name in the paper on that and you know it's it's Kinda scary you know. How are you going to be perceived that you you help this dude and in the end like some good? 'cause you save the dues life after. Cuevas incident Carlos gotTa Krahn. Oh Yeah can you explain what a chronic is? Pleased one twenty eight. Yeah okay. Wow that is so clear now. So what wants wants the eight or Krono is is just a written documentation of good bad extraordinary ugly. Whether you've been doing good whether you've been doing bad whether you've been just asshole the valley or whether you just been held her Roy and going above and beyond you know was called for at the moment okay. Carlos had his chronicle right. And that's when he started thinking about Sergeant Dutton an incident in the shower and he wanted to talk to sergeant dutton about Cuevas incident. I got this chronicle and I'm Kinda like struggling within walking back from the yard and I see him on the wall the entrance at Westbrook as we're about to go in and I'm just like I'm GonNa show this explained to them kind of like what I'm going through because I've seen him do this so I tell them aid can you. Can you read this? What's this Snitch Kite? I'm like dude. What the fuck you just read the damn thing and having people walking by so I'm like damn do you. Just gotTa say some stuff like that in front of everybody. Like come on and freaking. Read the dancing anyway. He reads and there was a couple of offices and TRY TO PEEK. A BOO on in like no no. I said you know I mean some kind of got mad at me for like checking. Don't read the this is only for him. So dutton red incident report. He's like why are you telling me so? I told him you know like I've been Kinda like struggling with what I did like the fear that I was going through like. What are people going to say that I say this dude or they found out what I did understand what you are traded after that because he took a real interest in me afterwards he would pull me over sometimes like dude you know he would give me some kind of light encouragement on things and I would just it? Kinda took me back. You know like having this guy interested and I don't think it was so much because of what I did. I think it was because like he was a mirror to me. I think I was a mirror to him. I think I gave him inside like did you really did a coup last thing. That was really cool to see that. So it was probably some he had never heard. Probably you know like do you get do they get praised for. That's his job but I actually seen like the human element that was in there. It didn't matter about his job. Maybe it did. Maybe it was just a training but the other guys standing around and it looked like that was their training. It didn't it. Didn't look like their training kicked in like his did well. No it sounds like both of you and you both reacted without thinking about it. Like you have someone that needed help. Dutton saw someone and you jumped to action. And it wasn't till after that you start thinking should. Did anyone give you a hard time? You're worried there'd be ribbing here and they're like you know some ribbing but nobody ever really I never really encountered any real significant danger. I felt lying. Thank God so. Do you know Sergeant Dutton. I don't think no okay. I didn't know him either but really wanted to interview him for this episode after we talked to Carlos and guess what he was happy to come to that. You've been out of saying to long. Do you think that was the case? So he didn't WanNa talk. I went up to try to find him in westbound. Maybe like four times and finally finally I reached him what he debriefed. Well he agreed to talk to me and that we could discuss this conversation. But he absolutely would not get on the mic progress. It was progress. It was progress and he didn't exactly remember the conversation and when I told them about how important it had been Decarlo. He was clearly touched by it They said to him. You know obviously you really care about your job. You really care about the guys inside and that you have some kind of. I use the word sympathy. And he very quickly said it's not sympathy. It's it's empathy like I experience empathy and I see the guys inside here is people and so when somebody needed help. I didn't think twice. I just jumped in and helped kind of unusual but even talking about having empathy is difficult for CEOS right right. I mean I got the impression that he was saying that that can potentially change the way. Your Co workers feel about it just opens them up to a lot of different ridicules a month to You just inmate lover but clearly dutton. I mean he obviously really cares about what he does and left me kind of feeling sad about the fact that you're hustle so much to change the way people look at those who are incarcerated and feel like. We've made a dent with that. We do not seem to be able to break down the wall of talking to people that work there in there and important part of the story and I also just want to say like I meet a lot of great correctional officers but even the ones that I have good relationships with. I still cannot go to my confront. China was produced on the inside by Nigel. Poor mostly side New York Thomas and yours truly John Young Johnson in my man Patmos. Cd Miller in on the outside by airline. Woods and Bruce Willis. What be. This episode was score with music by Rossi's intimate in my Guy Antoine William S. My do right there. And let's not forget about the comparable saving Jesse Fox. This show Aaron way the digital producer in the executive producer for radio. Topi actually Shapiro. Yeah Yeah Julie Shapiro Ear. Hustle would like the thing acting warden Ron Broomfield and as you already know. Every episode of Hustle has to be approved by this guy. Here Sam Robinson the public information officer at Sanford in State Prison and I am not instead of Nigel. Nor New York. I am in my office. Social distancing as we also be doing right now and I've waited on this latest episode of This was difficult for me because I think they got it wrong and that they say that's only custody fascinated with they've ever had to speak to was. New York's mother and again. That wasn't bipolar. I enjoy that myself but But then there has been more than one correctional custody happened. They have spoken to. They have had a insight and thoughts of Sam in for since Season One. I have shared my heart and soul so with that Although I think they got the facts wrong I will say that. I do approve this episode for all of you out there. Basically this podcast was made possible with support from the Burgh initiative working to redesign the justice system by building power and opportunity for communities impacted. By incarceration you can find out more about the show and the people in it on the web at ear Hustle S Q dot Com or. You can follow us on twitter. Instagram and facebook at ear hustle. Hustle is a proud member of Radio Topa from P. R. X. A collection of the best podcast around here more at Radio Topi Dot. Fm Speaking of radio. Toby we WANNA thank a few people who contributed to radio togas latest fundraiser. Thanks Aaron Maison Erica Hughes Stephanie Fox. Susan Rachel Trainer Tricia Hanson. Trish in Steve Tamara Bruno and melamed and before we go obviously things are pretty different in our world these days. We're thinking about all our listeners but in particular we WANNA know how. The Corona virus is affected incarcerated people and their families for family members. You can send us an e mail that address is INFO at ear Hustle S Q dot Com and please make the subject of your email family inside and put a folks inside you can strike super. Kite are Mellon addresses ear hustle. Po box eight three seven to three San Francisco. California nine four one eight eight again that's Po. Box Eight three seven to three San Francisco. California nine four one eight eight and please share this mailing address with your loved ones inside. We might just read some of your notes on an upcoming episode and Sidebar. Thanks Post Office for still being open for everybody inside. Please share our address with all your fellow incarcerated people. I'm Orelon Woods. I'm Rozan New York Thomas and Naito Poor. Thanks for listening. Two Thousand Twenty funny was for non smokers and Governor. Newsom just to get a ten years to life point to call at fine. Thank you as the traffic cop do. A whole different combined is clear. I'm proud of her. She was sounds like you cry. That's right right as we were recording our last narration. For this episode. We got the good news that for none figures that was serving those two hundred and ten years to life on the California. Three strikes law had his sentence. Commuted things are changing every hour and some of those changes are great one more piece of good news before we go and this one I should get a beat for David jazzy music. You're hearing underneath me. Right now was also commutations by Governor Gavin Newsom David Jazzy but we refer to as Swedish fee has been providing dope as here hustle since our very first episode. If you pardon episode of our show. You've heard his music. We'll keep you posted on him. Anthony and tidiane enjoy. We've got a good news from our network Radio Toby's yes we do. This is love from the creators of criminal is back with the kinds of stories. We need right now. Therefore season is all about animals and the WII including stories about family drama between rival with pets and a retired central park police source. Thank God. There's a story because I think you know. I love horses because when I was a little kid. I really wanted to be a horse. That was like go when I grow up to be a horse and when I saw police forces I went nuts. So I'm dying to hear this story and if I had been a horse I even been this Central Park police horse. Maybe maybe this is love one time. Magazine's top picks a year refinery. Twenty nine says this is. Love is the warm story based PODCASTS. Listen to when the news is just too much to bear. And we're on the move. You see the movie twister with Helen Hunt. Do you think this is kind of twister? Hi It's phoebe. 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Ceo officer New York Juan Carlos Mesa California San Quentin Jesse Fox California Sergeant Dutton US California Department of Corre Miss Banke Reggie Corcoran cuevas New York tennis Time Inc. Sam Robinson Orelon Woods
Excuse Me on the Tier

Ear Hustle

37:34 min | 1 year ago

Excuse Me on the Tier

"So Victoria water six with other. But in the domain, Takur externally, California, I'm Vicky waters press secretary for the California Department of corrections and rehabilitation, and this episode of your hustle, contains language and descriptions of graphic violence, that may not be appropriate for all listener's discretion is advised. Second Saco these gonna see on. I am. I, I. So I went to reception recently. It's the first time I've been there. I haven't been there since nineteen ninety nine thank gosh. Rust me is a whole different world. Oh man. It really is. And okay, so receptionist where you go from county jail after you've been sentenced, and before you've been assigned to the prison where you're gonna start doing your time. Is that right? Right. Everybody in the California prison system. I passes through reception, and this is the place where it goes was. Terrified me you have everybody from everywhere like level, one level, two level three level four. You not segregate him later. But right met at reception. Everybody is together. It's chaos, right? This different is prison one O one. This is the beginning of the orientation to the penal system. Right. It's if you've never been in before your mind must be blown. If you've never been in before you're trying to go through all those stories. You heard about this place in the county jail because people try to get you prepared in the county jail and tell you all these crazy stories that don't help. Well there. There is a reception center at San Quentin. And it's just one of the handful of reception centers in California. At San Quentin, there's about a thousand guys there at any given time waiting to be assigned to their actual prison. Right. But they're not on the mainland at the prison. They're not a part of that population. And when you do see these guys, they're on the score. Just like the guys on death roll the officers don't want you to look at them. You gotta turn your back when reception centre, people won't when you see that, like guys stop in turn and face the wall. It that's the way they wanted, you know, but, you know I always come I'm always going to look for your paper. That's what I do peeps. I'm a looker. And you know, coal part about reception is that you don't get out much. You get a little yard time. You go to the dining hall twice a day. But other than that, you locked in the sale, that's gotta be tough. I was actually really nervous to go in there because I had heard all the rumors about how out of control reception can be. And I really didn't know what to expect. And yes, it was intense. So I wanna play just a little bit of tape to give listeners an idea of what it's actually like at ten o'clock at night in reception. That's the shutdown routine reception. It happens every night every night. And, you know, nine it's broke down by race in prison, you noticed. Oh, yeah. So that's how it is in reception as well. Okay. And each race gets a chance to say good night to their brothers. Come rats and all the other races. The ones you just heard are not Hang Seng northern Mexicans and northern Mexico. And then when the shutdown is over good night. All. Crickets. That's what's up. You're now tuned in to San Quentin? Your hustle, from PR Xs radio topa, I'm Nigel. Poor a visual artists now podcast. I've been working with the guys at San Quentin state prison in California for about eight years. And I'm woods, a former resident of sanguine that's where saying twice of former resident of say with right on and together, we're going to take you inside and back outside post incarceration. This is our first episode of season four and a lot is changed for you for me, your hustle. Sure has because at the end of twenty eight teen about seven months ago, my sentence of thirty one years to life was commuted, and now free, because about the changes we've been gone awhile, and I really wanna thank longtime listeners for hanging in there and give super warm, welcome to new listeners. This season is going to be different because I can't really get back into quit. Not that I'm trying to understand that. I do miss working with you inside. But here's the good thing. Okay. We are now professional colleagues on the outside and speaking of that, I'm guessing some listeners would like to know what you've been up to dog Coniston like fighting to lose the weight. That's fine. Somehow is finding me, you know, I still get my eat on well, the eating we have been working hard on getting four. We've been working. Hello. And here's how it's gonna work. You're hustle is still a podcast out of San Quentin prison. And we're still going to be telling stories about life behind bars. But I'm going to be working with a new co host on the inside and you'll hear from him later in this episode, but I got the flow right now and you're not going anywhere. I'm going to be working on stories about men and women when they get out of prison. There's a lot of people leave in prison in California, these days, and they have to find work. They gotta find a place to live. They have to reconnect with their families, and they have to, you know, get it. I was gonna say you're talking about dating, but it's pretty clear. You are really clear. Yes. Yes. So some episodes will be about life inside some about life outside and some a combo platter. And since this is the first episode of the season and so much has changed for us. It here hustle. We thought it should be about transitions. Exactly. And that's why this episode is about reception. And guys at the San Quentin, reception center will they could end up at saying Quinton or by not they could be shipped to any of the prison in the state right, right? You usually spin about ninety days in reception, and this, an experienced that guys remember for the rest of their lives. Do you have strong memories of L? Yeah. Because I spent a hundred and twenty days in the reset. No, no, no, no. It worked out why. Because the first person that classified me classified me with sixty something points, which made me a level for the second person that came back, and reclassified me gave me forty three point three level, three level three for two years before they figured it out. So after you got out early on we went out to the yard and ask guys in the general population. What was reception like when they were there. Reception is replace everything filters through to the opening of, of the zoo, you're giving a little bag. Hotter, toothpaste a little toothbrush. Spoon, and you'd be lucky if you get a couple envelopes and a bar wear. Reception. Right on especially look stupid. Like a pumpkin to prepare for that twenty three hour lockdown. That's what you need to be prepared for the no personal belongings. You got. No TV no radio. Pretty much twenty four hour lockdown stuck in six nine cell receptor Nate, no fun. It wasn't cool at all. I didn't like it. I had a Selley with a shit bag dollars like man. They really torturing me I know I did wrong. You know, but they. We wanted to hear more stories about reception. So we also brought guys down to the media center to hear from them. It's my first time being locked up, and somebody was just really cool guide to go like into me. And you started telling me, how gel works. He said when you go inside don't show. No fear, though. Not stay in yourself. Going yourself. Put your, your property down on your bed, and come right out and just go see was on a tier and just make yourself known. If you go in your cell selling high, they're going to think you scared and they also told me don't accept charity in prison. Don't let nobody your candy rod on everybody give you anything because it's always strings attached. So what does it mean if someone leaves a candy bar on your bunk? Oh, setup explain that, that there is just coming to prison. You don't have any property. If you eat the candy bar, then you over them, and you have no way to pay with money. And so they expect you to pay with a sexual favor. Booty bandits. This is calling what they are. Buddhi band is guys. They're in trying to turn young naive prisoners out and make them there. Air prison property. So you knew that going in I was scared to death. That's like my worst night, man. Like to be raped or something like that worst nightmare. That is the voice of her son. Thomas, aka New York. And he's actually talking about reception in New York state, which is where he first went to prison and there's also some very special about this New York character. Yes, there is. We are proud to announce that New York is our new co host for season, for oh, yes. Brooklyn's in ten days. I am. So glad to hear you celebrating him now because during the job search you put him through. Hell was shit? I look out for our listeners. What about me too? To show we stray, so this season on your hustle. We're going to have three hosts you and me when we're talking about life on the outside, and me and New York when we're doing stories inside and we can't be together because obviously, you're not going back into San Quentin anytime soon. And New York can't come out so listeners are going to hear me magically toggle between you and New York. Longtime listeners might remember New York from previous episodes because he's been in a few the first time he was on was to talk about how he set a record when he ran the San Quentin marathon. For the first time. It took me six hours, fifteen minutes twenty three seconds. I got the longest marathon time ever saying Chris, they prison survive. I'm still. Doc. Haney orc, you still out of breath. Tapeh. But I'm ready what's up not? Well, it's time for you need to talk more about reception. I'm ready. Let's go. Okay. There's another guy listeners are going to be hearing from the season. He's coming on as your hustle producer. John ya ya Johnson? Yep. New guy number two, like anybody's ever been to a prison. He had to start in reception and he remembers it quite well, in fact is staying on your brain. When I walked into the Carson center, San Quinn's reception center in Carson, the first thing that I smelled was the stench of smoke, and it was punching reminded me of a forest fire, and I'm damn is that a fire going on around here, because it was just smokey. And but then the other thing I noticed was that people were going about, like normal business. I walked to the cell where I was went in and made the formal introduction to the cell mate that I had and that was the first thing I asked him. I'm like, why is there smoke coming out of individual sales, and he said that those individuals who liked to burn wicks and I'm like, what is the week? And he said, it was a long piece of toilet paper that was rolled up into a tight rope and hung on the wall in burn. So people can have access to light their cigarettes. And I said, okay. No wonder why the building is smoking. There's a ton of wicks being burned in the building. Another interesting thing was that I used to smell exotic foods. I'm like, where is this food smells coming from? I'm talking about Chinese food Mexican food different kinds of food where reception. We don't have hot pots or anything. So where where is this coming from? And so, my cell say what you have guys who have cafes. And so I was like, well, how are they making the food? Smell this good it smells like diner, food, greasy spoon food, and he say, oh, what they do is they take the cookie sheet on the bunk that we sleep on and they scrape the paint off of it. And it's actual metal like a grill a real thin piece of metal. Then they take this firebomb remind us what the firebomb is. Did you take toilet paper or sheet and you wrap either or into a cone, and then take a can and you sit the cone on top of the can, and it shoots a fire flame straight up like a like a Bunsen burner? And when you put it under the cookie sheet it heats, the cookie sheet on. A bed into a grill. So these guys are doing chop suey, putting the rice from the canteen, the noodles, and the fish together with the peppers and actually making cuisines to sail into feet. They're homeboys. Okay. That's impressive that you can actually take that sheet of metal on your bunk. In turn it into this giant frying pan or gangs. The grew grill. Okay. So you can make this girl. And then you cook these snacks to share with your neighbours, Gazan, prisons of genius. And the Gaza have been a reception for a while. They pass when the tricks of the new guys coming in nice. But most guys that come through reception. They don't remember it as a place of good food, or good smells, the cockroaches the heat. The sweat noisy smoke everywhere could sleep couldn't rest. It was miserable. It was really miserable. So I remember that's David Ditto before coming to sand quitting. He was in reception at chino, state prison, which is right outside of Los Angeles. And when he was there in two thousand twelve there were problems with the plumbing, toilets didn't work. What would you do? The so bad, I had to actually make a makeshift toilet in the middle of mysel- in the morning, when my cellular sleep and use it and wrap it up and, and put it out with the trash kept away. Throw. It. Careful where you throw it. He wasn't kidding. Not at all an avid, serious story about that back from when I was in reception, and it happened when I was walking in a single file line with a group of guys on our way to child. And we'll win state green uniforms and about maybe five guys in front of me, something comes open to tears, and splashes and right in the head and its feces, he gets shit all over his face and his head and the craziest thing about it is nobody laughed at him. He didn't take it like no big deal. He just wiped it off his best. He can. He looked up a little bit. And he just kept walking like nothing happened straight. The child house looking like wow. Like what the hell? But the craziest part was the next day I went to shower again, and at, at the breakfast table, they were talking about how the guy who threw the shit was found stabbed the definite sell. And that's when I realized like they are not playing. This is real. This is prison. This is no joke, and I can live or die, and maybe even more hyper vigilant more scared more worry. Let's go back out to the yard. I'm not gonna lie. It'd be going down up there. It was a long like six times a day. So Mike in got off just stepped into the Rena. I was seventeen and a half. They let me know that I was damn child. And, you know, I wanted my mother fucking mama. The first thing I heard what I walked right into reception. New Goudie come to the gay a hail go get raped. I was terrified it now to the cell, just like dollar just messing with two ready sounded serious. It's not a serious. I wrote letters hope to everybody cried a little bit didn't wanna minute, but I did. We'll be right back after this break. I'm Jessie once gives the editor in chief of the sanguine news. Name is Richard Richardson. I'm the executive editor of the San Quinn newspaper to own the AMA run newspaper in the nation. We drink about ten to fifteen cups of coffee a day, and I ain't talking about their fancy stuff. You know that poor over, what is it had cappuccinos and tasers choice. I'm talking about that penitentiary brew beer that mood has nothing that stuff. They give you the stomach aches, Cali. We drink all day every day. Yeah. What you drink. Here's ad model Brown. Plastic Cup where they sell it as you know, once you get when the real mugs kind of mode. Ear hustle mind. Yeah, they actually got ear hustle. Mugs out there. People can drink out, but everything tastes good. And one of those one of those. How you get one of those, we can't get them were incarcerated, but our listeners can get them Anglo, that your hustle website, ear, hustle, s q dot com. That can go on there finally purchased one that's your hustle, ask you dot com. That'll tastes good. While reading sank went news pipe down, while you're there ordering your coffee month. Find a link to sanctuary news here hustle, as q dot com. So we're talking about reception the place. Where guys go when they first into the prison system. I think the thing that was most difficult for me to deal with in reception was noise. This is Louis bracket. He recently went through reception here saying, quit. There is so loud, they're talking to this guy out here, this go here. This guy appears over here, like a cell how good morning, semi Umbro or semi right back, and they just doing that all day and it was driving. Crazy. So right now, I see a watch on how detail Tom reception in watches over there. Right. So there's not. There's no time and reception with when we expect the time the judge gave you. There's no cloud intentionally those o'clock down by the by the desk. But that's it. No, you cannot see it from yourself. So when reception here at San Quentin, you don't know what time it is. It's noisy, and you can't really see making all of that noise was crazy is that you can hail these guys, but you can't see them. So unless, you know their voice like you don't know who they are is really saying in like, if somebody curses you out, you don't know if they're big or small turn down if you take the Fe you'll know what to do you'll know who cares. You out maybe just stay quiet in there. I think that's my vice. Last time I was in reception was February of two thousand this is nineteen eighteen seventeen with Atkins is a professional musician. I lose track. He's been in prison before back in the nineteen nineties, and this was his second time interception, second third. I'm not sure but he's definitely when I'm going to call a returning resident. Okay. So this is maybe his third time in prison. Lonnie just let us know it's more than three times. So what that tells me is he really knew what to expect. Yup. And that was no TV's no radios and very limited phone calls apart from reading there's no entertainment, except what guys can come up with themselves. Receptions, a whole lot of boring, it sure sounds like that. Heck yeah. But Dev, says the last time he was there, there was something going on every night. Anywhere from after Chow, which is using around six thirty seven after the evening meal. Kick it off. You know, some guy will start wrapping or they'll have a comedy show. They'll do skits to commercials. If you're. On and people actually pay attention. It's not all chaos. It's crazy. It is crazy while this is going on deals being made, I got shot of coffee for two novelists where yet New York feel number and. Runner come and bring deliver your products. Got it. Sini york. This is what they call Showtime at the Apollo. Yep. So the thing about reception is not really a nice place, guys, make the best of it and Showtime, gotta be like their absolute best thing about guys who musical talent consigned comedians, could tell jokes it's like a freaking variety show. But remember, you can't see who's performing. Oh, yeah. Can't see anything. And Jeff took advantage of that relative anonymity. So when I got there, I figured I'd play a little trick. Right. I did a Randy. Travis song right in Randy Travis of courses white country, and western cigarette the song. And their politics in, you know, they're, they're doing the prison politics in there. You know, white saying with the whites blacks ING with the blacks, you know. So I came out with this OPB I am going to love you for ever, and I really put the twang and forever, and ever. Hey men. And so all the white guy's brother, Saint brother. You're not just keep going to the course I'm going love you for ever and Dave, or for for and. Dave or men. It's like brother. Singing for the where you at brother. I'm gonna send you some coffee brothers. You need goes down there like no, I'm cool, bro. Cool, right? So I do that. I think I did another couple more countries songs I did. Dahlie, pardon and Kenny Rogers, I loved it was. Baby in metro, there was peace known, and I said, I get you with the fine-tooth comb, our softened side. So we'll just get to Ireland's in stream that isn't what be. And so when I'll tell you why people are much more primitive than black folks when it comes to showing their preciado. Yeah. I mean, the white guys were like yeah. I mean it was like a standing ovation. Thunderous beating on the walls. It was. They were pumping. I mean so I knew I had right. So I did, I think it was. I did Michael Jackson early Michael Jackson, whose love you right after. Geico. Had he? So, you know, who's loving you and they were confused now, brother. What nationality are you, brother? Yelling. Yes. Before I, I wanted to say. So when I told him what I was right. They were like. All right. Brother long we know. And then now they're mad at my neighbors like. Roddy? You're next do run you didn't. Tell us anything. Yeah. Did they give you anything like they send you, they all absolutely where they found out? Even after. Killing music. Is so universal that it that it was just a funding games to me. Most nights around ten o'clock the shutdown begins. And this is when the crazy noisy. Dan reception comes to an end with a very specific ritual. And we heard some of that at the top of the podcast. That's the loose owes the Samoan cats their initial. He is Louis bracket again. Remember what it was light to lead the shutdown. I would grab the bars like scream at the top of my lungs. You know, excuse me on the tier excuse me on the tier just getting that out and really being that one voice. Everybody is listening to that one time every night. First time I heard shutdown. I loved it. This is taller Brooks who wasn't San Clinton's reception in the early nineties. I love the unity. I love the respect. I love the structure. I really appreciated that I was like, man, I don't believe I'm hearing this. They're really having a respectful ending tonight. Wow. I mean you could hear. Pin drop. That's beautiful as Erie that's power. So after the shutdown what happens if everyone respects it to the CO's respect it, absolutely respected. And what happens if someone doesn't they get dealt with their own race would have to check them. No blacks can't check away or vice versa. You know, hey man your folks was talking last night. Don't worry. We got it. And he gets boop. Boop have accident. Next to you. Got Knott's in. He learned a lesson, you know, sugar lumps. Hey, what from what we've heard it sounds like receptionist, boring, smelly dangerous place where you get sugar. Lumps, which sounds so frigging innocent. But clearly they are not. Those things you see on cartoons. And they get hit on the head. Swail. And probably far worse. Yep. I'll say it is, is not a place. Anyone wants to spend very long now ninety days is more than enough. More than enough for real reception. Actually prepares you for lays ahead. I mean, most guys are on their way to serving some serious frigging time. Yeah. I mean, it helps you with the prison politics to be able to understand what is acceptable in prison. Okay. What is not acceptable? What would a put you on the frontline, or what get you hurt? So it is like prison with training wheels prison wanna one, but there's probably no way to prepare person for spending decades behind the bars how could there be? I mean that is crazy. It's tough is definitely a transition going to prison. So and you know what unless you're in there for life. Yeah. You're eventually going to go through another huge transition getting out kidding out history. Transition that pretty much everyone imprisoned dreaming about. When it finally happens to you. It's not easy was it is your for you. Do you think I had a smooth transition? I had a kickback transit. No, I got out I had a job. I had a place to live money in my pocket. Well, everyone gets out with some money. You're talking about gay money. Yep. When you get out of California state prison. Yeah, you get a grand total own a plastic card of two hundred dollars are the same amount. You've got nineteen Seventy-three when you back then you could have bought a house car. Okay. We are laughing about it. But seriously. That is not gonna take you very far. You know, fifty years later, it won't I mean it's not gonna be much help in two thousand nineteen, but it is money, and how you spend, it does tell us something about who you are. So we asked New York in y'all yet to go out to the yard, ask guys what they would do with that, too. Dollars if they got what do you plan on doing with that two hundred dollars gate, money that they gave when you parole plan on cinema Celio packets, because my study don't have nobody gave me a steak dinner. Get me a nice eliminate or something like that to drink. What could you get in Mexico with two hundred dollars man g you can get all close and in twos. And then you can eat to the restaurant, two hundred dollars a lot of money with it. So we get the boxes t-shirts you know, and then at the end of that, you know, a nice bottle of red wine. You know some smoking one night at a motel in. And bus traffic to the welfare department that give me some type of systems go to the nearest store and buy me some bubblegum, I haven't had bubble gum seventeen and a half years. And I like bubblegum. They're not so far from the Mark, I wouldn't around an ex people who recently got out of prison. What they actually did with that two hundred. So what to do with the two hundred dollars gave money. What I do with that two dollars. I use it at two hundred dollars correctly. I didn't spend any money on drugs. I think the first thing I bought was a pa-, stash ios. My money was on cars. I didn't know how to use it like kept for a while. And then someone told me it was money on there. I didn't know on bought a phone was trying to call my partner because I didn't know where the hell I was at didn't know how to use Uber lives. So I'll just walk around San Cisco just going in liquor stores buying, you know, Jews and Tatum, chips and when to blow restaurant as some trim Scampi. Thing that I bought with some French fries at bigger king. I think it was a won't move. Some of some oats. So real oats barley. You know, cereal with my two hundred dollars, I turn around and gave it back to my friend in prison, and I'll put it on her books. That's what I did on two dollars, and so more real bread and some Tropicana, orange juice hundred percent. First thing I did is came home, and I bought things that I needed personally for as female wise. So first of all, man, what you gonna do. Two hundred bucks out here now days, right? This is Ali, and he's trying to talk her. He had a lot to say about his two hundred dollars when I first got out the first thing, my family, met me at the gate, we drove the Starbucks. Right. Nine had real coffee for a long, long time. I mean years, right. You know, we was dealing with penitentiary coffee, so we go up there, and I get this Americana drank it, man. It was good. I mean it was as I was like ooh. Now did the first thing I tasted after being incarcerated for twelve years for months, twenty one days ninth figured out the hours. So we start driving right in the coffee kicks in. I can't talk I got like locked ya. I n had that much caffeine in a long, long, long time. So I get home man. And I just got this energy, right? I like getting my bed ready. I'm a happy man. Yeah. I get stuff done. I don't like that coffees caught a coup so Brahma tell you, man. I spent my two hundred dollars where the gate money at Starbucks. Next time on your hustle. We're going beyond that two hundred dollars. And starting. That coffee shop. We're going to hear what those first days out of prison was like for two very different guys now free. So you know, it's like. Get to do whatever wanna do. How do you feel about your chances of success on parole? I've been in prison almost all my life. I have no no job history. What am I gonna put down on the -plication? Thanks to everyone who spoke with us about their time in reception. John Johnson, Charles Tallaght Brooks David Ditto Lewis bracket and Jeffery Atkins. Air house was produced by me per line. Woods Niger poor. John Johnson for sun, New York Thomas with help from producer, Patmos CD Miller, who also comes into work without sound design team. This episode was score with music by Antoine Williams and David Jesse Curtis boxes are senior producer, Bruce. Wallace produces outside stories with our lawn. Jewish appear role is our executive producer for radio. Topi-. We wanna thank ward run Davis. And as you know, even though here hustle is now doing stories outside of prison. The material from inside San Quentin has to be approved by this guy here. What do you think in the first episode, I thought it was really, really interesting to have early on introduce resigned as the new inside piece and I'm excited to see how the rest of the season plays out to ninety though bad. Do you prove this episode? I tell it, Sam Robinson. The public information, officer, sanguine state prison, and I do approve this episode. What do you even black? If it was irritate. Everybody are they going to really love it. So I think it's no middle ground. Whether it's going to be. Yeah, we're all able to laugh. We love it. Our man this guy. Please stop laughing. Please. Here hustle. Is a proud member of radio Topi from PR ex a collection of the best podcasts around here. More at radio topa dot FM. This podcast was made possible with support from the chance Burke, initiative, working to redesign the Justice system by building, power and opportunity for communities impacted by Carson ration- checkout are updated website, your hustle, s q dot com and thanks to Aaron Wade, our digital producer for all the hard work, she put into that. And when you're there, you can sign up for a newsletter. See pictures of people in our stories. And if you wanna spend a little bit, you can buy at your hustle, t shirt or our mugs. Follow us on Twitter as the grandma Facebook at ear hustle, s q, Aymer line woods. Nitra poor and omra. Russell New York. Thomasson. Thanks for listening. That's a little bit. Never say comments to me. I really wanted Mead you I really went in. You did good until the last part. Don't hit that high note here. Radio. Ex-.

San Quentin New York California San Quentin officer Starbucks producer John Johnson Dan reception Mexico San Quinn Jeffery Atkins Hang Seng California Department of corre Brooks David Ditto Lewis Niger Sam Robinson Cali
Hold That Space

Ear Hustle

50:15 min | 9 months ago

Hold That Space

"Hey what's that the we're going to get to this week's show in just a few minutes. I show that you reported entirely outside of Saint Quentin thus right down in southern California back when we still could travel freely before we get to that we did want to talk a bit about what's going on in California prisons during this pandemic. I Sat News California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation has reported the first step of an incarcerated person due to complications thought to be related to covert nineteen. The exact cause of death has not been determined. The Guy was incarcerated. See I am California Institution for men one of two prisons in the state that have a lot of incarcerated people who have tested positive for the virus see. Im also has over twenty staff who reported their positive for Cova. This worried the rain Serano. She's locked up at California Institution For Women. Right next to see I am what happens in some of our staff like our Beagle back and forth to see. Im with your friends. 'cause they're closely and they do have their and they come over here and work as well so you go back and forth. She didn't think staff or other incarcerated women. Were taking these threats seriously enough and it was really getting to her. We're fighting a battle against his coffee. Then we're fighting again for population began. They're not informed of anything they're they're very helpful for me. The other day I went to have a one on one Na meeting with my friend and her room. Because I just I needed an outlet. Phil Luckily do the cooking skills that we have this groups that we've been in the past you were able to come together unite. And she's in ourselves. We also talked to Eric Olson. Who's locked up at Central California Women's facility? She said there's a real sense of fear and panic among the population there. To one of my. My personal concerns is mental health for People. Young people being reached out to checking in. Hey how you doing? What's going on with you? Fifty definitely a stressful time and sometimes as we all know our CFO for those who have one thing keeping Eric Hussein. Right now is a project. She does with other incarcerated ladies. They normally so clothing for poor kids and other countries. Now they're showing masks. We have come together to make mass or community you making masks for you and other women inside or are you making mass to send out to other. People are hoping that we're going to be able to donate them. To where the greater need is little positively in dark times thanks to Erica and Lorraine for reaching out and to Serach Ouza for making that happen. Okay let's get to this week's show but first this episode of Ear. Hustle contains language that may not be suitable for all listener's discretion is advised when van from juvenile hall? Used to come in through this way. Did it a pull up into this gate right here. And then they'll take you out this gate and then to one of them holding sales. Come check it out back in January when we could still leave our home. I went to south central. La The east side. Where I grew up. Okay I went to the very building where my interactions with the criminal. Justice system all started. While I was there I ran into a cat who went through the same shit as I did. Come here on the Nice. This is the building where all the juvenile's my part Los Angeles went. When you're on the wrong side of the law they put you in these hold and sales where you waited to see the judge and while I was up in there of course I used to write my gang and my name on those walls just to let other gang members know e Mack was there you know what I must have hit up on one of these law. They say you hit a ball award for the wall. And so what was it like to be back there? It was definitely interesting to use that word of course because this was the first time since I got out of prison that I actually been back to that neighborhood. You know what I'm saying like I haven't gone back because there's nothing else over there. Funny Yeah as we were standing there in that room a woman stop right at the door and paused. It was almost like she was seeing a ghost town. I don't know why she didn't WanNa be there. Maybe like me another cat. She had an experience in those sales. Now down the hall. I found the room first appeared before the Honorable Judge. Moore crazy part about being in this room right here. Is I remember all the way back when I was nine years old. I was in here. What happened to you when you're ninety? Oh Man I was leaving the pool at this park. Called Roosevelt and right across the street was some train tracks and it was a train actually ending okay. And after the train had went by the railroad crossings never lifted back up so I saw the car struggling to go around crossing arms so me and my good. Samaritan ass went over there. Lifted it for the cars go by and a few minutes later. I was in handcuffs. Jack they do that too. Little Violin Kid. Should I add that I was black? Yeah and that was the first of several times I ended up in that building right before high school. I got caught slanging crack. This is this is the place this is where it started like. I was on probation here when I was fourteen. And since then I've been on some form of probation parole a prison and currently I'm on parole so our lawn. Can you explain for the listeners? Why you went back there. Well that building is no longer about locking kids It's been totally transformed now. It's a community center. The evening I was there some folks from the neighborhood. Were outside barbecuing inside. You have a bunch of nonprofits. There's groups to help with housing and job issues legal problems and then there's this group will first and foremost happy New Year lady and this is who I was there to see an organization called. Tinto's in it's a support group of people who have partners that are locked up after six years of Tinto's ends existence. We finally have our own office space. So the dozen or so women of Tinto's in meet every month to talk about what is like to be together with someone who's serving time. These are women who have not one not two but ten toes in a relationship with someone in prison. They are in. There's a question written at the top of the group's website. Are you ready for the journey being with someone in prison? That is definitely a journey. And that's what we're talking about on this episode women and men who are on that journey in it for the long haul even when your partner may never get out. I'm Alan Woods. I'm Nigel poor. This is ear hustle for PR XS. Radio Tovia has a going. I'm doing good Nice. You know it's crazy times but I'm hanging in there. E even though things are nuts right now we still have to move forward getting stories out and we are working harder than ever to keep things running to me about it. We working day and night. Oh I got and now. We have a new project in the mix this month. We're asking listeners. To support the stories were telling on your hustle. One thing we hear over and over again about our stories from the people inside who listened from their families and from our amazing fans is that they've never heard stories about incarceration. Told in this way is true. We've shared voices that were kind of hidden behind the wall And we're trying to keep doing that during this global pandemic that we're going through that's right even though we can't work with our sank win crew were still sharing the voices of incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people and you know what makes me so proud of your hustle early on lots of things. I'm sure but what in particular nine? Okay I love that. We are not about numbers and statistics. Were about the everyday stuff. The small details that add up to something really special bringing you stories like this fields as important as ever and. I think if any team can work under these limiting circumstances. It's our team whether we're doing it from inside San Quentin or in our offices in the East Bay or from our new offices inside are classics. We always find a work around. I mean damn nine. We created the first podcast to be distributed worldwide from inside the prison okay. I'm proud of that went to airline so as we said to keep your hustle going this month returning to our listeners for support if you're listening and if you have the ability to contribute to support the work we do please go to ear. Hustle S Q dot Com slash. Donate that's ear. Hustle S Q dot Com slash donate. We know Tom's very hard. But we've crunched numbers and if even a small percentage of our listeners can give seven dollars a month that will help us so much. We're hoping some of you listeners will be able to support us today. That's right. We're asking for seven dollars a month if you can afford it. The first one thousand people to sign up to give seven dollars a month would get an invitation to a virtual listening session with your house. It really means a lot to us if you had any amount you can. It's your support that keeps us going. Yup Your support keeps US ear hustling so if you can please donate now go to ear. Hustle S Q dot Com slash donate. Thanks so much and everyone stay safe out there. We're still down like of priority. Women wanted to ask you at the lowest point in your life and then everybody comes out the woodworks when you come home. I want to take you out. I want to buy clothes but I've been Jane and I had global link on four ask you packages. I sent you homeboy packages. I came in saw you every weekend every other week. He was our family and friends doing that. But now you WANNA give them all your eye and we're back here. The women of Tinto's sit down around tables in the same damn way back when I appeared before Judge Moore. I can't get over that. It is the same thing that used to get into the judge's bench and witness stand are still there. I just shake my head. It is crazy. Darlene Burke the CO founder of ten toes in as everybody to check in you know share. What's been going on since the last time they met. One of the women said her husband is coming home in June after serving nineteen years. Another is still adjusting to life with her husband who returned about a year ago and another woman a net is close to retiring from her job with the county of Los Angeles. She has some news to share. My name is Matt And my boyfriend. He's boyfriend now. Dali told me to wait. We've been together five months now so we officially say we were a couple of December twentieth. The Guy had net is now officially calling. Her boyfriend has been locked up for thirty six years since he was nineteen. They met through Annette's daughter. This is my everybody rape been him Daddy. Uncle Agency calls him daddy because her boyfriend. I says Uncle owns all in the family. The family so seekonk. Sam Daddy Uncle Backman. What do you think about? Your Mom's relate hurt. New Relationship is supported. I just WanNa see her happy because I know everything she'd been through past relationship and I just WanNa see haired like smiling beautiful smell and but not everyone in their family is cool with this new relationship a net field in the next day when we visited her at her home my other daughter. She's an air force. Tease judgmental. You shouldn't be like that. She see he's imprisoned so she just thinks that he's a bad person okay. He was in there from time. He was you know. Nineteen people can change. People do change. They don't stay the same forever Her do was recently found suitable for parole and he could be out by summer. Her sisters at Tinto's Ian have some strong opinions about what the couple should do. So currently the plan is for him to move in with a net but at another meeting the group said maybe she rethink fat. That maybe he should. I go to transitional housing and then they could get to know each other and actually that kind of seems like a reasonable plan. Honestly this is just my opinion but I think anybody who's released after a significant number years need to have some space to a chest totally and they need time to figure out who they are right. They need a lot of time to figure that out straight up and this is just my opinion. The woman needs time to get used to this change as well. I mean all of a sudden. There's a new person in your house in a new person in your life. Twenty four seven new person in your radio in your space and your bathroom so an in her guy still have some time to figure it out in the meantime he's in prison about seven hours away too far for her to keep visiting so they stay in touch with phone calls and letters but I keep them all in order. I have space in my room in my drawer for them. She had all his letters in little box each numbered and shit. He sent me this one on the fourth and I know he always start with profound greetings and that the letter talks about how toughest pass was and how he's looking forward to their future together and says this is our time nobody else but So let's enjoy it to the fullest together as one. We got to be having a lot of love and sex as what it says. Okay E. that brings up a question. I bet a lot of people are asking themselves. What about the sex part when guys are still locked up the physical intimacy? That is so important in a romantic relationship. And it's so hard to have with your partner when they're locked up well they're awesome unofficial ways that we've described before on your hustle. There are visiting rooms where everybody looks the other way. And then I don't want to say where but there might be a boom boom room where couples can actually get a little alone time. That's right and don't forget the risen away not wait was that own sake and then of course. There's the official way family visits where you get to spend forty eight hours along with your loved one in something. They call a cottage but really imagine more five hundred square foot trailer. But not everyone can give family Bizet's even if they married so they end up in a relationship. That's romantic but physically apart like this one woman I met at Tinto's Ian Raylene. I remember being a kid and having this feeling in my heart and not knowing what it was but yet knowing like I think this is what love feels lake with him. Railing fell for her guy. Who'll when they were teenagers? It didn't last long though. Raylene moved out of the neighborhood and Raul dropped out of school. The last time I seen him was the night of my graduation from high school was back in nineteen ninety-three and I I remember. We went to a party and I seen him walk in and I was so excited to see him and I walked up to him and said hello but I was pregnant at the time with my daughter and when we were younger right before my fifteenth birthday you know he used to try to. You know see where he could go with me and I always have now. We can't do that. We got to be married if you want to do that. And then there was at that party standing in front of him pregnant and I felt like I kick myself thinking. Well I can just do that with him. Raylene got married to kids father and then divorced twenty years later by this time. Raoul was in prison. Eventually they got in touch Aghia started exchanging letters. Things got romantic then. They got married but they were denied. Family visits because rule had an accusation of domestic violence on his record. So no sex and I X Ray. Lean how that's affected their relationship. I feel like this tapper relationship when you're not allowed to be physically intimate with each other allows you to get to know each other lobe deeper without that interfering it build a stronger deeper connection. I've experienced the most intimacy than I ever have. With a man with my husband without being physically intimate. It's been one of the most beautiful experiences to have railings. Hoping get out this fall. So they'll be able to. You know. These are sweet. And that's getting new. Love raylene reconnecting with her. I love but I have heard plenty of horror stories about women dating guys in prison. I can't confirm nor deny what you're saying. But what have you heard? Let's just say there are a lot of ways for these relationships. Too Bad definitely wanted to women. I met at Tinto's in was going through it. I think I've been a part almost two years now and last year was just the worst four years ago to resubmit an incarcerated man online through a friend but at first to recent realize that he was locked up when she found out she thought about heading for the hills as she told us the next day but he was very attractive and I've known people who were in prison and I felt like he deserved a chance. And I gave it. Theresa didn't start visiting him immediately. It was a long drive to the prison and there was something else From my picture it doesn't look like I'm a big girl you know but that was my thing. Was You know I put off going to visit for a long time because of my size and finally I just had tell him like? I'm a big girl. And he was okay with it and so I finally went up to visit. Theresa said he was a good man and very sensitive but she said he had a drug problem. Still she hung in there right. She told me she thought her love might fix them. Also she promised when I made a commitment and took that vow to love you for better for worse pitcher Sickness in house. Drug addiction is a sickness. I don't know if it's just US women that have this Where we think we can fix people but he had been so hurt it his childhood. And just you know I guess I thought I could fix him. A Theresa is a caregiver professionally got is true. She's a home health aide. So is not really surprising that she tried to fix the guy and they stay together and they got married to recent knew that the money she sent him win for drugs she knew that instead of fixing them she might be supporting his habit a year ago after they've been married for awhile. Theresa fell down in broker arm and shoulder. She couldn't work for a bit so she didn't have any extra money to send him. Things got bad between them. He sent her divorce papers and when we met her at the Tinto's Ian meeting she just learned that he has something going on with a teacher. Who worked in the prison? So how are you feeling now because you still want to make it work? Even after I still you know the crazy thing is even after finding out. If he was to call me today tell me. He's sorry because of who I am and what I believe in commitment the valid I made before the Lord would forgive Him Mike. Now seriously though. I say that. But I'm just like all over the place right now. airline in the skies heart. I don't know him but I do know that. There's lots of guys inside and out who take advantage of the generosity of women like Theresa. I mean I've definitely seen that but there's nothing like boredom loneliness and a drug addiction to make guy do some questionable things when we come back we're going to hear from one last couple trying to make it under very difficult circumstances ill what life without the possibility of parole. Hey Naito here again. And we're just popping in for a real quick reminder that ear hustle is in. Its first week of its first ever fundraiser right. We've done these before with our network Radio Tokyo but this the first time we're doing it solo. We know things are tough right now for a lot of people but if you can we would love it if you could give seven dollars a month the first one thousand people to give at that amount gets an invitation to a virtual listening session with ear hustle. And there's so many other great premiums virtual parties a chance to be ear hustle producer for a day. After we're done with the social distancing that is and we're very excited about this one very special ear hustle ringtone for your phone so if you can please donate now go to your hustle S Q dot Com Slash. Donate THIS EAR HUSTLE. S Q dot Com slash. Donate and. Thanks for looking out. Steven is my first love. He was someone that I always could confide in crazy enough. Like we've always been open and honest with each other even as teenagers which that's not really. That doesn't happen a lot. That's the Tina Green. She's in her forties with dark straight black hair really pretty super kind of vicious and present. Stevens got short hair. A beer wired frame glasses and has a sexy belly like mine sidebar. Waiting for the day that women have sexy bally's women do have sexy bellies. Thank you she and Steve started dating junior high. She says they did a lot of making up and breaking up. They grew report the Highschool Stephen. He ended up going to prison for murder robbery. He wants sentenced to life without the possibility of parole when the judge said life without the possibility what was your mindset honestly I didn't understand. I'd have no pointer reference to understand what life without Mitt but I didn't understand it until years later like so for me. I was on the yard like a twenty two. I think almost turned about twenty three and it seemed like the world had slowed down like my focus at got onto one individual he was like in the sixties yearly had the hunchback already he you know they had signs of age on them and then. I realized like I'm going to be here until I'm that age or more for me. It was sinking feeling of like you know what did I do to myself? Then the questions came. Oh what did I do to other people? Because that's why they put me here doing a year. Stephen spent the sides. Psotino moved on got married and had to crump snatchers crop statue. I never heard that before us. Old School kids okay. Crumbs Thatcher's then. Ten years into his sentence Stephen got a letter from Tina. She'd recently split up with her husband and she wanted to come visit him. So what was it like when you got that letter or was it was awesome because One I have. I've always had I've always loved to have always had love for And and for her to say like. Hey I'm coming back. It felt really good but life without will scare people off because that means I'm not coming home and that was always my reservation with like. Hey It's cool that you love me but you norm not coming home right. You'RE GONNA burn yourself out in five years like it's cool. I'M GONNA rock the why it's good but I know one hundred percent sure that she begun to five years but he still wanted to see her. Stephen Got Ready for their first visit. And you know the cold part about a first visit nine. What's that you wanna look like a CD CR model of what a prisoner looks like? Your clothes are ironed increase. They brand new draws a new like the cover of a magazine. Only S Q bats. If you're saying Clinton your desk model is that what you're saying. Yeah definitely on a first visit. You've gotta go out there and look like the System Take Care You. And then she didn't show up my kids in a car accidents. I wasn't able to get a hold of him. I was like what happened so he probably felt like I stood him up a few weeks later though I visited and we picked up where we left off as young teenagers and Man Psotino was committed. Stephen was an eleven for prison about four hours from west to Tina lived every other Friday. She and kids powder into the car when they're little wasn't that bad for them. The older they got there like I hate this. Dr Do we really have to go? She would drive up there and Parker Karner road as some California prisons. You had to get there. Hello early to hold your spot line on a road outside the prison. I heard that people had to show up at like two or three in the morning just to start waiting in this damn long line and sometimes when they got there they would find out simply that visits had been cancelled in. I would be like I hate this place. I'm tired of how they treat me. I'm tired of how they treat us in the visiting room. I'm I'm never coming back. But she did come back again and again and again and despite the circumstances she and Stephen did all they could to build a normal childhood for subpoenas kids. The girls would bring their homework. I'm so he would work on homework with them. When they were a little bit older and they were doing Jujitsu he would get on the mats in the play area with them and do some Jujitsu moves with the girl so like we tried to make it as normal as possible. Considering it was in a prison I just kept waiting for that day. Were like hey. I'm tired of this. I'm tired of the visits. I'm tired of the you know the stuff that goes with all that like having to get up having to kill the weekends off having just put your whole life on hold just to come see me and I never wanted to put their life on hold. affected them to that reality. Made Stephen Really conflicted about the relationship. This all got very real for Stephen was. Tina told him she wanted to get married. And you have some some reservations. Tell us they're not even reservations. They were no. I don't want to do this. I guess it's hard to explain unless you've been to prison like you know what it's like you have to deal with the guards and whatever whatever they're going through you gotta deal with the crazy rules that don't make sense to anybody. I can't put anything on the table. I can't pay any bills. I'm emotional support to a telephone for fifteen minute call and a letter. What kind of husband is up to love? Someone really loved them and then say hey? I want you to come experiences trauma with me. Memento make sense. He explained that trauma prison. He's talking about well. You know the violence the anxiety. The depression the loneliness of all of it. It's fucking hard man. I mean who wants to pull someone that you care about into that Bush but and this may not surprise you. So Tina stuck in there. After a couple of years. Stephen put aside its reservations and they actually did get married not only that they also managed to have two new crump snatchers without having the privilege of family visits because lifers at that time weren't allowed to have family visits. Bombay some like that and even though they were making it work in prison. Psotino wanted to get him out of prison. She wanted him to apply for a commutation once again. He had reservations having life without. But that's really what is going to die a prison death by corporation and I fully accepted. That's where I'm going to die at and into open that door to really opened the door for hope. I don't know how to say but I felt that if I opened the door and nothing happened. That would really just like the depression that you can't come back from it's really real and I don't even like talking about because I I could. I felt it and it's not cool. Man People really don't even know like no hope really means until you have no hope I mean maybe maybe like maybe a Joni victim. I understand when no hope looks like ooh again. Tina DID NOT GIVE UP. And eventually he did. File for that commutation. He did it for her though. Psotino started spending as much time as she could. Fighting for his release. She started in L. Wop Group got to know other people who's partners had life without she'd go to Sacramento advocate for Stevens release in August of twenty eighteen. Ma Partner the honorable California Governor Jerry Brown announced a bunch of commutations and commutations came out and he was not on it and I was devastated. I was like Shit. He wasn't commuted then. A few months later her phone rang. Ironwood state prison popped up and I was like oh I is the prison calling me And so Stephen's on the phone and I might do what's going on. He's like I just got off the phone with a nice lady from the governor's Office who told me My sentence has been commuted in the fall of two thousand. Nineteen after twenty eight years in prison. Stephen Green walked out the door of his sale for the last time. So I started. I was like I. I've I've been reported before so I cleaned sales out and shut them. But this was the cell that I lived in this. Was You know this is where they? This is where I was. Caged at that sale was mine. It's empty and then I got to tear the tag off the door and The sound is very different. Because I knew I wasn't coming back from war. It was shock. I was crying for a few days. Just like Oh my God. I can't believe he's really coming. And then I kind of went through survivor's guilt because all of my fellow wives you know who there has been sworn commuted. Ooh It was weird like eighty. Let me go like this happening. Yeah like liquid. Just crowd out the belly of the beast and We got you got chuck and went there and I remember looking in the back like I got. I'm leaving people that I love to. I'm going to the people that I love but I'm leaving people that I love and It was weird. It's still weird. Esa Tina's house. Stephen saw something that really threw him when I came home. Like there's a shine and memorial. I was like I came home. The first is my first time ever seen it and I walked into the bedroom. And there's like a thousand pictures of us in me and our family all on her nightstand and the first thing. I always like start crying. Like this is like a shrine like a memorial to our marriage are who who? I was inside but this is what she was hanging and for me. It's moving it's touching and I was like what logical thinking person would do that to. Stephen have been out for about three months when I interviewed him a Psotino. They were still getting used to their new reality. I've had to control my household in my life for the last twenty years. The power dynamic. Does it change a little bit? Because he's home now you've been doing everything for the longest definitely. I've taken care of him. The last nineteen years. I'm used to helping him and doing everything for him and he comes home and I still want to be that. Let me do it for you. Well how is HE GONNA know? Learn anything if I'm doing everything form I feel like with her with the power control thing that's going on. I've been controlled. My whole damn life like backed up. He was more fiction it. It seemed inside always holding my hand always rubbing my leg always techy philly kind of and now that he's Owl i Mike. Why don't you WANNA hold my hand in public? I'm getting out and I'm looking at Dan. Gang colors out here all the Greens and Blues in all the different shades. That's what's going through my head and she's like y'all marching holding my hand or I'm looking at all the different cars in how they're shaped and the sounds in. I'm tripping all that stuff and she's thinking about home my hand or hold me or way different more different page and then it's like hey I'm not going nowhere. I can hold your hand tomorrow for me personally. Knowing how to life without the possibility of parole sentence I did kind of have a wall up. I never wanted to be fully vulnerable. Because I don't WanNa get hurt and I can't him coming home? I tore down that while I was like okay. He's home. I don't have to worry about anything vulnerable and I might go shit. I don't like how this feels I. I'm scared I definitely believe that if I was single I think my adjustment would be easier just because I only have to worry about me But like adjusting to being a husband which never have been and like you have an idea of what you think husband is but your wife let you know that you're failing in areas that you're failing in every time and it's not always pleasant but there's a lot of things that I'm learning that I know I need to step up and be a better wife You know just sometimes the way. I talked to him or treat him. I don't know sometimes why I act the way to I get scared and I try to push people wake so. I don't WanNa be hurt. I feel like sometimes I'm scared and so I'm mean to him because I'm trying to protect myself Yeah it's just. It's been a roller coaster. There's Times that we're on a high and I'm like this is great and then there's times what we hit the low and I'm like I don't know if I can do this so you spoke with a Tina and Stephen Back. In January Stephen had only been out for a few months. He was still living. In a transitional house. He was part of a program called project. Rebound that gives people coming out of prison a place to live and it supports them while they're getting a degree from California state. Schools Soda Transitional House. His school it was going great. Then the pandemic because of that Stephen moved from the Transitional House into Tina's home and so they're locked in together now all right so everybody got the headphones in coup. Yes we wanted to check in with them and see how they were making it during this pandemic so how many people are in your house now. How many people are living there? There's seven of us so it's mean Steven. And then my oldest daughter Sara with her boyfriend and then they're expecting a baby my son. Joshua who just came home from UC Berkeley and then our daughter's genesee Jaden. So is this the Brady Bunch chilly? Yeah I wouldn't describe it as children but all right. Hey Hey I bet it's the best lock their you've been on. This is the biggest sale I've ever been in that specific so I'm happy to be here my family but it's it's differently half full of trying to continue my studies. There's no more alone time or more quiet time quiet time as they were interrupted by my girls need for school and so they can be successful. And it's it's definitely a challenge in that direction. That's for sure so you going through what's been going. Oh Yeah I've yeah the longer that I saw the more that I realize like how much the only thing my wife has done. Like any lady. Who's in this situation? Whether it's a sister a mom. She's paid all. The bills just kept roof over their over their heads. She's kept them in school and not just them in school but like decently in school kids like being here now. Fulltime I start. You really see like she's like the linchpin in everybody's life and you remove the linchpin everybody falls apart. This is the first time living together. Right Right Oh. This is the first time ever did anybody other than my family. Yeah that's huge. Yeah actually this Stephen Yes you got home and you see the shrine that was dedicated to the memorial. Exactly what Obama the memorial right right? Is that shrine still there? No I'm trying to bust it up. I'm like look we need new pictures that's over with. So what's the new shrine going to be like? Hopefully it's all family stuff family together right. I was J. It was funny because we were just talking about. I'm like I need to replace a lot of these pictures from blues to you. Being home but Stephen I can totally understand what you're saying about not wanting to be defined by that experience but a big part of your relationship occurred obviously while you were in prison so there must be memories you want to hold onto. And it's tough that they happen to swirl around being in prison but they're still such an important part of your relationship it seems like it'd be hard to try to negate all of those memories then turned into gate anything. I just don't think we should be defined by that like even our relationship. I think that that's fine. I mean it started. It started in junior high. And yes. There's a big chunk of it in prison but as the days go by that big chunk is no longer the big chunk. There's now this other truck right and so as it keeps going on. I'm like hey we will. We know what happened here? We lived it. Yeah let's together towards the future. Let's worry about that part. Okay so I have two questions one is Stephen. Do you feel she still crazy for stand-down for you. Yes that on. That answer never changes just so you're aware do you understand. You would still be imprisoned if it wasn't for that woman. Yeah Yeah I love the pause as a thanks to me. Darling. Net Raven Bradley. Two resets and Tina and Steve Vent their crumbs Thatcher's ear. Hustle is produced on the inside by Naito. Poor was on New York Thomas. John Young Guy Johnson and packed Lucie Miller and on the outside by Mr Woods and Mr Bruce Quality this episode was Ford. With music by Antoine Williams. And why she sentiment. Curtis Fox edits the show. Aaron Wade is the digital producer. Julie Shapiro is the executive producer for Radio. Tovia ear hustle would like to thank acting more than Ron Broomfield. As you know every episode of Ear Hustling so he has to be approved by this guy. This content found in the public information officer at San Quentin prison. I've just finished listening to would've beer hustle and Since we're all separate from each other I'm actually calling from home or I just finished my evening. Routine workout agree interesting. Down the hardest strong and healthy. I feel like I'm built to last and I hope that you feel like you're building that that you and yours are doing well. During corentin not suffering law students kind for those of us who have the loss lactobacillus. Oh baby with that. I do approve this episode. This podcast is made possible with support from the chance. Duck Burg initiative work into redesigned justice system by being in power and opportunity for communities impacted by corporation airline. We have some very exciting news to announce that's right we've chosen a winner in our T. shirt contests. We had a ton of entries. Thanks to everyone who sent one in or new limited edition t shirt features a FEMME pitcher of your three year. House with co-hosts illustrated on a Hicks. Hey I couldn't imagine being on a t shirt with two guys that's still so you can find a t shirt and a whole lot else on our website ear. Hustle S Q dot Com. Your Hustle is a proud member of Radio. Tovia from PX. A collection of the best podcasts. Around here more at Radio Tovia Dot. Fm I'm neither poor Merlin. Woods. Thanks for listening to. Is it going to do anything if I I think? That's in the right side. Does that sound better one to three S. two. Hi Can it right one. Two three in the place to be making good. Radio is so hard so hard. Fortunately we'd been told by some amazing people. Yes we have the bittersweet thing is we are now saying farewell to two of them since the beginning of your hustle. Curtis spots has been our steady editorial guide. We've spend hours and hours working through scripture characters. I personally would never forget how in the beginning we did not know how to correctly utilizing editor. The one thing that Curtis does desk to really shit ever. He can imagine how a half baked idea can blow up into a full on story. Oh Man I love writing with him because we could argue spar lab and we really enjoyed working together. I learned a lot from that guy. I mean he is just a great writing partner also since the beginning producer engineer and sound designer pet. Mri Miller has helped us. Designed the audio style of shows and I've worked inside with PAT for quite a few years now and he is so diligent hard working unbelievably talented and deeply supportive of the guys inside and I used to be. One of those guys always asked me my opinion on things and I appreciate him for teaching me how to make Dope Ashby and how to sound design episodes. He's a great friend and a good care both great people but now Pat Curtis are moving on other projects hands down they real impact on the show and they'll always be applauded ear hustle family so pat and Curtis. We're GONNA miss you a ton and early on one more thing I love about Curtis I love can aggravate him with my singing. So Curtis this one's for you two things you hate my singing and cars baby. You can drive my car. Yes I'm GonNa be a star Baby. You can drive my car and maybe I love you. 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The Mighty Oaks Show  Episode 047

The Mighty Oaks Podcast

1:12:01 hr | 1 year ago

The Mighty Oaks Show Episode 047

"You're listening to the mighty oaks show broadcasting worldwide from our studio studio in southern California. Equipping you with the tools and resources to find victory in life's battles and now your host chat show and Jeremy stomack welcome to the mighty oak show. I'm Gary Stoltreiger and I'm here with Jet Robichaud. Introducing this very first show chat is Coming to US remotely from Arizona to the money studios in southern California. And we're excited to get this show started at. This really is our opportunity to provide some context around culture that seems out of control and we have the opportunity to hopefully provide hope and direction in spite of everything thing. That's happening suicide today to introduce you to our very first guest on episode one of the mighty up show John Lowery. John Lower has been a friend of mine for the last several years in work. That we've done here at my jobs job is the director of transformational ministries ministries for serving USA serving. USA is an organization Probably our strongest supporters historically has been serving USA and they do a number of things they work with women in distress and women's homes in what goes on their drug alcohol abuse situations dealing with so many of those crazy easy situations Prison and veterans and work under their Veterans Ministry. I guess and You deal with the The prisoners primarily John. Thank you for being with us on this very very first show. It's great to be here. This is a beautiful studio by the way I absolutely love beautiful. It's not big but it is beautiful. I'll it is actually a good size for this into our new offices. This is cool. We call this our training center. There you can say. Call anything anything you want to our headquarters on your excited about it but came up for San Diego. Thank you for spending time with us. let's start with your story. You have an amazing story and I love it We've actually actually done some ministry together in the prison yes mafiose is taken team to Sentinel prison a few times and done three day sessions there and You want unexperienced unless you've been in prison. And if any of our viewers have been in prison this may not mean as much to you but the rest of us going inside of the prison is a whole new experience. That's but having John Made it all about your story kind of where you started growing up how you ended up in prison with experience. Look like for you and then how that led to where you are now the growing up I came from what I call the average broken home. My parents went through a divorce. I ended up living with my mom and sister and mom was working two jobs use so that left a lot of free time for us kid and I started getting in trouble real and it is hard to believe but getting in trouble it would just seem to be a natural thing we understand. We all have a sin nature. So it's natural for me to do this But my trouble soon escalated. I started robbing drug drug houses and I did that for several years. Ended up with a thirty year. Prison sentence here in California and went to prison Twenty three years old. A young kid did thought everything was kind of funny games. I didn't care about much of anything and with thirty years. I wasn't really looking at going home. It was so far away it was a fantasy land so I got in trouble. I started running with the gangs and all that Eventually the California Department of Corrections and rehabilitations determined it a a prison gangs. We're GONNA be tagged as state threat groups and they took the leaders in the members off the prison general population lines and and they segregated us so I spent four years in segregation for not for a rule violation but for being a gang member and segregationist the minimum at twenty three hours a day in your cell. Usually you're GONNA do for four days out of a week. Never coming out of your cell. You'll be able to come out once a week for an hour we're of yard time time and If if you're lucky get a shower every other day as regular deal we were so violent in causing so much trouble that they stripped property away from us so we had flipflops plastic Shoes boxers in t shirts and we had paper right Nikoloz to have they would only give his pen fillers so we had to roll him up in paper to have a pen to write segregation is pretty brutal but I spent four years there During that time period I had a transformation from someone that didn't care about the world to becoming a Christian and it wasn't and segregation. That did it to me. I had somebody started writing to me out of nowhere from back. East ladies started writing to me and said I'm a Christian Witnessed witnessed to you and I never wrote to anybody in prison before. And I'm thinking she's a crazy lady yes so she starts sending me all these. These envelopes will be like that thick an inch thick with oldest Christian stuff in it and throw it away literally. I take that Christian stuff thrown away and I write a letter back answer her letter and one day I just Louis frustrated and got tired of it I wrote back to her and I said look you know. I don't like people I especially don't like Christians in your well the Laura I didn't I wasn't using her for money or any writing to her. Which is strange in that world anyway as into prisons? There's a lot of using that goes on. They use people people for money in for candy and for packages and stuff that you can get a rotor. Toronto like people especially don't like Christians because you know they talk about each other behind their back they they lie they do things just like regular Pete was at your experience and that was. That was my experience in prison because I was watching people. In my opinion that would run to church to become a Christian for protection Ri- and they were still drinking the alcohol. All you're doing the drugs and stuff I don't want anything to do with and as I'm ready to our told her I said I don't like people but I like dogs and I said the reason I like a dog is as a dog is always happy to see you. It always listen to. You will never tell on you and so I sent this letter out thinking okay. This lady's gone done a week later. I got regular size envelope and it was real. Thin wasn't big. It wasn't fully Christians I opened it up and it had a single page letter in it and there was attract. You know those little Lou storybook handouts Christie and it was called bury the heroic dog and I threw that track in the trash. I opened the letter up in the first sentence said. Don't throw this this away read it. I know it's I know you threw away read it. It's important and I literally put my hands on my hips in thought. Wow who's this lady. So I got this the track out of the trash and there's a story from one thousand nine hundred fifty seven National Geographic. You can look it up online. It's called bury the heroic Roy and Berry head forty seven rescues. I think was a number and out. This was a story varies forty second forty-sevens rescue and this is what made him famous will. He's dog that looks for people in the snow. Not necessarily avalanches and stuff but just lost in the snow and stuff and the process is they let the dog go and they tracked the dog and the dog runs around. Finds the person if you're down the trained to lay on you because of hypothermia and the owner would just track the dog find him in rescue will bury on his forty seven rescue went out and he was looking for this person lost in the snow and he found him he was down in the snow and he tried to lay on and the man was hyperthermic and he thought it was a wolf so he took his knife and he stabbed the dog inside. Now that did was make me. Mad Ad is trash woman said stuff about this dog killer but I picked it back up to finish reading says the dog did what a dog would do it turn around. It ran back towards the owner. Because it's hurt. It's no their safety in your food. Help well the dog died. That made me madder. I got even matter. I was so mad at his lady. Lived on. Find out exactly what I thought but So in the man was tracking the dog he found the dead dog. And this is the story you said you can read it National Geographic any followed the blood and found the man there was dead or there was down in the snow and that was berries forty seventh. Rescue off okay. Then it said there's a trail of blood leads it's the cavalry and I could relate to that because the dog did nothing just like Jesus did nothing and the people abused And they didn't kill him. He laid his life down but they stabbed him and everything. And it's the trail of blood to cavalry that lead me Lord so immediately it just absolutely different than anything ever done in my whole life. I just stopped. Everything just became a Christian band magic like that while I'm Christian and I'm I'm Runnin in with gangs segregation so now. This is a threat to my life to become Christian because if you become a Christian in your especially a gang member the assumption is as you're gonNA tell you're GonNa be you're GonNa do something to get out of the whole out of segregation GonNa tell But I don't see anywhere in the Bible where God said become a Christian become limited format right so I never did that I I wrote it out. I went out to several. Would you call council meetings out on the yard with the gangs to determine whether or not they should stab me or not never went anywhere. I stayed there eventually. I was released from segregation and I was put in a mainline population relation down at Keller Patriot prison down in the desert and at Kalpatri prison. I did my last four years of my prison sentence there on your Bravo we are and as a Christian Who came to a prison with a history of being a gang member of running Drugs in running weapons of being involved in violence. I came to the prison and the Christians did not trust meet. The gangs did not trust me. The guards did not trust me and I did not know where I stood but I know one thing is it is a Christian. I'm always going to be brutally honest right and I'm going to stand stand my ground but and so that paid off. I stayed the four years on the main line and on February Twenty Fourth Nineteen Ninety eight almost twenty one years ago today. I paroled from Calpeda prison and Clock I paroled to a city like two cities over from where the prison was. And so that's drama in jail too because there's nothing in the city of Raleigh except for farmers police of some one guide or another other. The prison guards border patrol is agents sheriffs our city police. And don't think that's all is there because it's it's one of the poorest counties in the country country and that's why parole was city of Raleigh and Immediately I attached myself to a church there and Started being ministered to in that church and wanting to give back and I was amazed because Prison Guard families. That knew me the prison guards ords who knew me inside Invalid me with Love Justice. Christians should do but they did it carefully also sure they weren't stupid pleasure and So these relationships began to build and That has evolved into quite a ministry that I've done over the last twenty almost twenty one years just a few days short of twenty years. How important has it been to use something? We talk about our program all the time the idea of paying four award really giving back in in how that is so essential to someone's healing after trauma. I mean really yours. A life of trauma to that point how how important hord was that. Or you're giving back or different. Would it be if you had done a person who does not give back loses purpose. Yes God created us with a purpose in that purpose is to give your purpose is to serve. And if you close that down then you're just gonNA envelope yourself with the same sins that you had before and I'm not a you know me. I'm not a Bible. I just try and live. What it is? He's trying New Christian. Yeah I'm a rough Christian but In giving back if I don't give back then I am idol and if I'm idle I'M GONNA get in trouble because I have that personality. I have an addictive personality. I haven't avenue an outgoing personality and I need to be able to express that with a positive tone instead of a negative because you are going to expressig somehow. Oh yes we all will will express it somehow. I mean people ask me about my father. My father taught me how not to be a father. My Dad Vitas. Data's my dad did you listen to us. He was he was rough and I learned how not to be a father so now as a stepfather I apply the good things that I have learned about how to be a father. And I I know that. In everyday life I need to do that in prison ministries as well as working with women in domestic coming out of domestic violence or coming out of human trafficking. It's the same here. Same with working with veterans with. PTSD or veterans who are just transitioning you have to have PTSD. We need to have that positive channel for them because you can so quickly enveloped yourself with negativity that you're going to stop and once you stop your stagnant right and that's what we call pond scum. Just get covers. Sucks the oxygen out of the water right and it takes the life out of it is crazy because we talk about purpose all the time you use that word purpose of is hard for people to understand purpose who don't believe in God God. I don't believe in creation because we were created with purpose and the purpose created in the image of God was to invest in others was to be fruitful and multiply. That doesn't just mean having children. It means to invest in something that's going to produce fruit and so once we stopped doing that we lose our purpose. That's right which was to benefit others so along with that. We're talking about this briefly when we started is is the idea of us. The words kind of church work redeeming meaning a trial or redeeming trauma. And this is something needs to be said for those who are watching our show. Trauma is not reserved for those who've been in prison or in a gang or veterans who have been in combat trauma. Something that's a life ailment. Because of sin broken we all experienced trauma but way to redeem that trauma to make it more than just something bad that happened in your past is to use it while ministering others. You talked about that Talk about that a little. The more you use the phrase. I'd never change. I wouldn't change my past. Oh yes I had a friend who was giving testimony. And he's a world champion Skateboarders well-known from the old school and everything and he lost everything was sixteen years old making forty thousand dollars a month in the late. Seventy and obviously that led to drug use and everything else. He lost his world championship to it. He sold his world championship trophy. This this big huge stainless steel thing or it. Looks there the silver here. But I teased him. But he's he sold it for five hundred bucks adult. He held a girlfriend in his arms who died. who was a shot through the throat I believe is a story held her in his arms while she died because he was in that drug world every every lost their relationships with family and everything but he now is a person that gives back so when he's giving his testimony is talking about all this stuff he's been through in his life any said I wouldn't change any of it at all and froze me? Yeah because he stopped openly or you dumb. Wouldn't you want when you change. Yeah why would you not change. And these words came out of his mouth. He said because that. Put me in a position mission to do what I do today. And what's he do today. He runs training centers of founder of Training Center which is a drug rehabilitation center down in San Southeast. San Diego. You're right. In the hood he does prison ministries up and down the state. He does ANTI-BULLYING ANTI-GANG ANTI-DRUG programs in San Ending Unified Los Angeles School districts. He does what are called x fest. Events where he brings Sports people from around the country to come and they bring all the drama whether it's arm wrestling slinger a You Know X.. Young guys on slips and all to law people to tell them about Jesus and this is what he does get an purpose and he could not do that had had he not experienced the loss in drama that he didn't have before now he said something about like what trauma isn't a life. I'm a pastor. Naidoo Weddings. And I tell the couple I say you know the. There's a lovecraft I corinthians thirteen is starts off with love is patient. Love is kind and that's the foundation to everything and I can prove it to you because the I don't care how badly you've been beaten or how much somebody is hurt. You physically the thing that is hurt you the most in in your life has been words someone has said to you because words never go away and they build huge scars in our hearts and I said you can listen to a song and cry because you remember a moment when that song was playing because words are powerful I counsel these couples getting married that no matter. What always be patient kind with each other because when you're not feeling too patient remind yourself I need to be kind? I'm dealing with any here. She's arguing and when you don't I feel so patient you need to be kind because a kind word turns away wrath right and applying that in liser important to me but dealing with trauma Roma in our lives is all of us have trauma all of us era. And that's why I love the mighty oaks so much just because of what you do is actually like a cross fit for anyone out there. It isn't just for raw. We haven't had a veteran audience but traumas not reserved for veterans. Knows not an in using using our past using our history I think is what has made us effective with veterans. I think it's what makes you effective in the prison so veterans Veterans are really fond putting up a wall and on wall. There's a sign that says. No one knows what it's like to be me you know or understand or you have been there and so the difference between us and others is that when you come to one of our programs and you you come into our programs when you come to one of our programs. You're sitting in a room full of people just like you. Yes you have a story just like yours. The differences they don't allow their trauma to define them ratify them but they use that story and they tell us the testimonies they use that story story in redemptive sense to say I know you bet I know what you've done. I know what you've experienced and the reason I know it is because I've I've been there. I've done that. I've experienced that but it no longer has a hold on me because I've no line my life to the life that God created me live. You do the same thing in prison and I've seen you do it. We went to that. I the first program that we did fight club fight club A Sentinel prison and that was a crazy situation right. We went there to Do a program for veterans trends and the warden who is tremendous ex marine for marine. Yeah he's awesome satellites you come and unless you have approach for veterans but first you have to go to the yard where the life out. The opportunity programs are He wanted he specifically wanted us to pull the the guys that came out of Pelican. Bay Everyone we had thirty. Two people believe in in the first program and every one of them had done more than twenty years segregation at Pelican Bay cruising or the twenty years. Yeah yes and all of that situation described twenty three hours in Yoursel- yes maybe an our out very small sizes after years of that. Yes yes single-celled you know sally nothing crazy and Cell extractions tear gas pepper. Spray was normal stabbings everything going on all the crazes up and he wanted the word one of those guys to go there because as as warden. He wants them to succeed absolutely. It's it's not as confrontational of a relationship as you think. Everyone's trying to have a community that operates rates lives peacefully right and yet but you laughed kind of chuckled about going there. I was amazed because all of the veterans came. Ah Even Big Chris. Yahoos passed away. Now you guys were like what do we have in common with IOS guys with a new user with those is guys and I was chuckling until you get in there yet because there's no difference. There's no difference there just in a different uniform. And they've made worse choice As an awesome and that was the power of the testimony. So what do we have in common. You told us when we went in and he said yes we haven't come. They consider themselves. Warriors soldiers their battle during a war. And so if you'll tell those stories you'll have a connection and that's exactly what happened. It immediately happened. Not because we were guys that went in and took a bible and a bunch of stuff we had us in stories of combat stores. Broken this stories of hurt and and talked about how we were able to pass it and there was connection with people. I never thought I would even have a conversation with leading now. Connect with no and I saw you do that. I mean I remember one instance where we're talking about something else we're talking about one of the guys look at you and said well you're on the other side of this you don't understand and you immediately shut that down exactly. Yeah I'm rick is right down here. I've been right take. I'm a little further along than you get it. Because that's how you redeem trauman broken and that's all you're used by God and redemption. It was so beautiful to watch The men from mighty oaks came in here. We did the fight club which was interesting to let the Department of Corrections drew call a program the RAW GONNA go to gymnasium and fight But we went in there fighting for the import finger lighting right but we went in there and there was this one guy his name was Michael and you know sat like this with his arms arms like this and he. He's relatively famous person. He'd been in the papers and everything but he was also three quarters of the way up on the gang skit. You know gang gang ladder And he'd done his segregation people on the yard looked up to him and everything and his life and phone apart he'd been convicted of two homicides. Homicides two murders he's he states he did not do and You Know He. He felt wrongly convicted. He was angry and his African American American so he feels even that pressure inside there and like the justice system failed me everything. He said all my friends he was going to college in doing well. He had got a scholarship on basketball. was doing great. And he got picked up for these two homicides and sentenced to double life sentence and he sat back there with his arms folded ended. He didn't say much of anything and a couple of times he would peel off and talk to one of the vets or he'd come and talk to me and I'll never forget the third day. When we came back we came back on a Sunday We came back on Sunday and I had a message to him because I got a phone call from his wife and she he wanted to know. What did you do to my husband? This guy is talking about a fight plan getting corner man to help him how to fight to keep his marriage in how to fight to get out of the gangs and how to fight to better his life and here it is a couple years later. This is absolutely unbelievable. He he is in line for commutation of his sentence by the governor because his life has changed so dramatically he has become an influence winston piece on that yard between not just his own gang members but cross gang members. His wife has faithfully attended church. Giving her life back to the Lord They Bible studies out in visiting and for nothing other than some people came and gave a story of how to be redeemed by the love of God tip. Kennedy's with us. I don't think I need to give you an introduction. Tim But I'm going to anyway because hopefully get some some some new people that they can learn about the exploits. Jim Kennedy and his In his speech Straw which I was a top five breath. UFC fighter reindeer sniper. Ray Incredible military history and did some more stuff beyond the military history channel hunting hunting Hitler to two seasons three twenty seven the hunt Hitler. I don't know if they found him yet but and then he was on discovery channel. Show code hard to kill. Actually we'll try to murder JEM and each episode and luckily you're still alive with us today and when I first met you it was two thousand ten in a we are both sponsored by ranger up which accompany you've been involved with for a long time and we were fighting at strikeforce then really cool. We had asked to fight together. I remember being so excited. Signed those already. It's an offense and then and then I thought of the same corporate after pipeline. He was epic then. It was kind of bittersweet because I want my site and you lost a fight. I thought she won two jock array so that was when we first person and that was a rough night right trying to be happy and celebrate but we had toby nine. They're crying Toby's always always growing starts coming okay. But a lot's changed your life since two thousand ten. You really amass a lot of popularity as people left all the stuff that you do and and But I think there's probably a May pry podcast out there that would really talk about like your big fights and and a lot of different things that your life Hunting hunting Hitler in hard kill but I want to go a little bit further back in a really talk about like how he became. Tim Kennedy which I I know. Your Dad had Mike you come from an amazing family. Your Dad's a amazing hero of this country and just really which shaped your life into coming how you grew up. What brought you to join the military special forces and really what shape our the I find it funny now. Where like celebrity? Your I just hang out with family I just got back from a deployment overseas and got to spend the weekend with my family for the first time in a minute. And we're going around and you know people come up and say advocate and they're like shaking their betters me and you know you you see massive popularity of late. I haven't done anything different ever. I'm too old to Harry too scarred. Guard to keep doing the same things and now I find it ironic that we are moving circularly back to a beginning where people are appreciating refuting hard work resilience a relentless attitude That being damaged and broken doesn't mean that you're a failure you know it just means that you've lived saved a lot of life And I think that's kind of where our origin starts. Mine does is is my old with a bunch of pretty incredible people at role models to look up to what were some of those influences. You come to a place now where you know. It is about being a victim not uh allowing people to call you a victim person responsible for those things we learned often is that some things damage US happened at us but also some of the bristles bowls that building character in allows us to performance. Adults also begins his allure. Some of the things in your early years you know before the military before all all these things that people know about that helped shape along that route. It wasn't perfect and get you there but it started started you along that path. Yeah so I'm GonNa join you guys as club and be writing a book this year and kind of what we're talking about right now. Is We have two different storylines. These two arcs the first arc. Mark is me being an absolute moron time and time again. Bailing getting crushed losing getting blown up Like the the the dumb things that I did throughout my life a period of time where I thought I had age I had a couple of pregnant neither of them were. The woman is living with And that is one storyline one arc of all of these things that ultimately should have broken a normal person but tied to the current time. Line of what I am doing now and the things that I did my military career and the things that I did in my career fighting for world titles going overseas multiple all times. Earning matters medals for valor. Those things are directly tied to the time settled. I'm taking off my clothes in Morro Bay California and I'm walking next to the right side of the rock just on the north side and on the swing up to the fog because I don't know what else to do Because everything else in my life has gone wrong crashed my motorcycle and one of my heroes. My grandpa just died I think I have age I just lost my debut. There's two women that are pregnant in my life and they're about telling me I'm the father Like that is going to go for a swim into the fall. Fast forward ten years in running the fog. The Brown out of a helicopter towards the sound of gunfire some like. I can't give you enough examples the type that I failed as a youth so order. We'll talk about my. My heroes. First and foremost is my dad. My brother Yeah. They're both just automating love. You guys drink peaks Dragen. Yeah Mike's Incredible. He is so I grew up with a dad. That was a narcotics officer. He was part of these pretty incredible task forces during the peak of the war on drugs. If you think back to the war on terrorism that you know that that we were part of Like those were some pretty good years. You know where you're in Iraq in oh five or six wild wild west here that you're not guest. Dan Oh seven Oh eight pretty pretty good times you know like a lot of things you could get away with. That was my dad's era of the war on drugs or he's flying to these Caribbean in places to steal plays of cocaine from Pablo Escobar and fly them to the United States where he's asked his ten twelve year old sons respectively. My older brother and myself so to sneak into a garage is like hey. There's a yellow Camaro in there. I need the license plate and if it's a locked safe you can get some stuff out of the glove box. That was that was normal in my life where we go to Oregon River. We would just drive from campsite to campsite by. My mom would drive but me my brother. My Dad and my eight year old sister would float down the Whitewater rapids by flow. I mean we did have inner tubes. You swam it all because I had a water polo Olympic level athlete of a father. And then a freak athlete of older brother and then an insane little sister This was just normal no and pushing off the ground and getting like a rocket shoved halfway through your foot campsite. And Your Dad's like well. I forgot the trees. Your use of the players also made everything in life seems so easy and it is life. Easy we We talk a lot about decision you know. One of the great one of the great books ever written was master meeting by the Frankel. He was in a concentration aspiration camp as a psychiatrist and kind of evaluate. What was happening there and he concluded after watching all of this for few years? That the one thing you can't take away from a person is their ability ability to decide to decide what they're going to do with their life they get to the side. We're going to move forward or stay where they are they to make a decision and I think the difference often in between someone who performs after thinking they have aids and getting women pregnant her relationship with the broken that we might talk about. It is a decision. I'm not GonNa let that define me. I'm going to decide to do something important. Decision points in your life. Maybe some sometimes he said I had had to decide and I was going to move forward to fall back. Yeah so many right right before. So we we started villainous. This kid one of my friends puts me on the phone with a kid. That just stale buds. And he's like I don't know what I'm GonNa I do and I was like what do you mean. You don't know what you're GONNA get up and you're going to keep going and he's like I'm a broken failure like total story about me at a run this morning forty and I'm pushing my four year old. Who is about the size of chat the little pop stroller and dogs? And we're going up a hill and I get like four fist away up this hill like he's a big hill. It feels like auto sled push with a ninety pound sack of blood which is my four year old son. I have to walk the last bit of the hill. Tell us what you want failed. Run this imagine that I have my son sitting there looking at me. And I can't even make up hill broken camino failures that gives me an opportunity to come back tomorrow and use that same hill and be a little bit attribute a little bit stronger to build a little bit harder to kill. And that's all those instances of my life a bit where when that Coast Guard boat rolled up to me in Morro Bay California and that captain looked down at me and he says hey boy that that water looks pretty cold I'm like that's not to say dude swimming in cold water But yeah and a pretty cold and I don't know which way the shore is because I'd swam so far. Ah Off and he gives me a choice. He gives me an option and gives me deciding point of. Hey you WANNA come up here or you want to figure this out and I was like if I get up there the blanket to cover up. What's going on right now? And but whether it's like ranger. School were ambushed line. And it's in the middle of winter. It's December were about starting ambush. Freezing shaken by tiny little frozen. Packers is like vibrating that frozen ground behind a to forty wait for those two for the Humvees to roll buys do ambush and the do next stands up and walks down to the road. He's like Rangers. I'm Doug I quit. And they're like well cool had head back up the road a little bit and you got some hot coffee and it's like hot. I'm like how again taken an ambush starts. It was almost at the decision. Point was taken from me but I was either a little bit too dumb or a little bit too tough to know how to quit. And that you know went on to become the honor graduate ranger school to Go back my special forces units go to even more elite T- And and sometimes you gotta make a bunch of tiny decisions that put you in a position to not fail where that decision points almost made for you. And that's what I keep during his man. I just keep trying to do the right thing. Ninety nine percent of the time. Sometimes I've made mistakes clearly but sometimes it's like I don't have any other options besides the job out of this aircraft or to pull that trigger because that's the right thing to do 'cause I've done everything right so far one step at a time today. Our guest is Matt Wittman. Whitman Matt has a lot of content on Youtube and elsewhere. His Monitor is the ten minute Bible. Our which which is crazy title the ten minute Bible our but it's awesome and Matt spins a lot of time talking about the Bible talking about of men tons of issues and For me in the last couple of weeks become kind of a good archive of just great information and Videos I can send US folks that are even dealing with things related to Christianity in the Bible and Ed Mattress coming from South Dakota my pleasure out. We got a lot of snow today or an early October Day. It's it's pretty fun. The ski resort will still up with snow. And then we'll fill up with people that sounds horrible Every part of what you just said sounds terrible. But that's all right. I'm sure it's wonderful bowl and we appreciate Oliver South Dakota Viewers Matt Tell me In our audience can get your background. Your history how does a guy get into into Producing videos about the Bible yet. Huge follow on Youtube a lot of people watching and listening. How did you get there? I WANNA pastor's kid says raised around Bible and Church and all of that stuff I suppose I did it early on because mom and dad were into it and you want to be. I think the the The cooperative pastor's kid route. I know a lot of my passwords kid. Friends took the Difficult passers and boy. What a crowd? That is to be a part of the cooperative type or did you have to come around later back and forth back and forth over time. Yeah me too I. Sometimes I think I I Go back and forth two or three times each year but but that's not really mean that the early going faith which is very much. You wouldn't believe their dad like he knows what he's doing. He went to school for this. He's a good man he's smart and so Very much my face was kind of curious through threw him College Trinity College in Deerfield Illinois Christian their guests and learn some new stuff and you kind of wonder wonder why you think what you think and then quickly got into ministry after that just family business. I guess I mean young. But she's seen your dad do it forever so you Kinda. We know what to do people kind of need help and you just gradually find yourself there without ever really trying. Then you realize you don't know anything about the Bible so you gotTa go and actually learn some stuff about about that. Make up some school and cited a minor biblical studies. I went to seminary and after doing that for about ten years. The whole thing just broke really questions nations about the Bible. 'cause my my kid. Faith to all the only honest way to say it as I went from pastor pastor and seminary graduate to atheist chunk of time but not a mad one a wanted it to work and it was mad at anybody but he lied to me or cheat of me just just very authentically. Didn't feel like there was a god of the Bible. Made me sense for chunk of time. It's tough to feel like you're letting people down and you don't WanNa feel like all these people kind of helped along all of a sudden you create a crisis of faith for them and a tough time and said I give the Bible of read through one more time said what a lot of time into it Before I started kind of letting people know just not like a proud announcement. I don't like you anymore. But a sad announcement I I WANNA at the end. I just don't believe it anymore. So before making such an announcement and started reading the Bible. And I'm not man I got through maybe twenty chapters after's of just reading it cold without an IDA. Teach it to somebody else or anything like that. It's actually a ton of sense. Sure I've been conditioned to read the Bible as a young person through the lens of better behavior and really everything being about myself. Whether it's I'm naughty or awesome I get things me me me me me and the documents just doesn't hold together with me as the main character but twenty chapters in I was like oh the gods the main character. That's the continual thread that makes all this narrative together and then the thing just clicked on that read through and I think I became a Christian when I was a little kid but I think I became an adult Christian. This bat quiet alone read through the Bible that I did for myself after seminary and I I ended up back in church. Church doing the pastor thing and pretty soon all this work into writing content that I hope will be helpful about specific books of the Bible and I was vain enough to think that she appointed camera myself than somebody on the Internet. Might WanNa hear what I have to say about it and Yeah and I guess. Some people wanted to watch Chin than a lot. More people start watching hopefully kept in a little bit better at it and now Make videos on the Internet about the Bible. Yes that's how you get there. I'd say crisis learn some stop fail a lot and short real quick. Somebody's GonNa Breath and be an arrogant enough cost to that. You got something that's worth saying on the Internet so I think people people really do want to know why we believe the Bible. The the Bible hasn't saved people are searching for truth. They just they may not know that. But but people are searching What do you and your story is? Fascinating is not particularly right. Now what do you say About or what. What's your perspective on Some re famous evangelical or whatever woah category. They fall into Right now and it seems to be kind of like the trend right now to come out and announced on social media that you never really believe or he lost your face or God disappointed you or write whatever and so. You're walking away. What's your kind of your journey? What's your perspective on some of that? I talked about that a personally personally. But it's always been from the outside looking in when you watch that what you think I wanna think that's a really insightful. Question Two I took my hand a little bit when I talked about how I felt when I was going through it I was sad. I mean look it everything aside what would have to be wrong with you. Not Want the promises of Christianity to be true even even the basement depths of despair and disbelief still be a lot better. If there were an order to all of this museum for for all of it God behind it who made it actually gives a rip about me and that there's something that happens beyond this life and when I die don't turn to dust and as soon as the last person who knew me forgets me it's like didn't exist courts. Want that to be true. The problem is I am not going to base my my life on a lie to myself the so and so for me is very much honest. Intellectual wrestling with the data I think for me that wrestling was a shift away from beyond team to vote. The right way behaved the right way by the right Christian substitutes for far superior secular products. All of that kind of stuff. That was faith in. I was a kid when I was throwing up right and so once that. quit making sense and the question is this thing is real as is it credible enough for me to throw my life at it and invite other people to do the same. That's a weighty question I can't speak to the process that everybody else's wrestling assigned through publicly has gone through sure but I see what you see some of it. I feel embarrassed about some of the political affiliation with crossing Christianity in America. Think some of that embarrassment is probably well-founded we get see things right. We make messes at other times. Sure and so I think some some of it is a sympathy toward people who are outside looking in and may see weird stuff about us and then you know that public figure just get sick answering for the stupid stuff about us and said of reasoning through with people and saying well. Here's why we don't think that either. I'm I think it starts road at you and the amount of comments I know some of the people that come out and made these announcements late late so my perspective is a little inside on this idea but I know what they're we're here and I know what their inboxes are for what my inbox is full of. And I think that the most erosive thing for somebody's sitting in my position mission is everybody wants you to sign up their team right. Everybody sure that everybody else is wrong. And stupid and only the most socially dysfunctional representatives edited of all different kinds of Russian faith and non. Fei those are the people who are GonNa put Fingers Two keys and yell at you about how wrong and dumb and bad you are right and no matter how talk you are that roads. It's like you're you're swimming in this key of pluralism that never physically could have existed twenty You're thirty years ago and I'm not better than any of these people were not our brains are built for it. Our souls not build a process that much data and and so I guess my response would be look. I don't like the way necessarily everybody has played. They're coming out is not a Christian anymore stories but it's somebody who's had his faith fall apart part once and come back together grace to those folks i. It's it's a journey. I don't think the story is done with anybody. WHO's in that spot lot? And if I could offer any advice to my friends who are in that spot would be. Don't paint yourself into a corner for the rest of your life with words. You say now now. His faith is weird. It's up and down and and that's okay. That's the question you were asking. Wander off into crazy no no no. It's great I think I think a lot of condemnation has come to some of those people and I think that's wrong. I think as Christians if we don't understand the journey we've been on as individuals and the grace of God toward us and all that in a work stream the naive on one side or just just hateful and completely deceiving yoder vitriol aimed at those folks. We should have a broken heart for anyone who does that that But these important question in spite of that because I think like you said fading is a is a weird thing and and we'll all go through the seasons where we're not exactly sure so you being modeled for us as well. If you're not exactly sure then you just you bail because you know. I don't think that's the right. The right answer either. I think it bears a discussion right. We would ask these questions and dig out because we all don't we have. This has sure. Do you have to be to be Christian right. I mean. How's your mind sitting here right now? I'M GONNA get upswing right now look out the window. See what's out here is beautiful and I I think about what's going on in my heart and my life and what I'm seeing in the scriptures of my family. Yeah right now intuitively beyond the intellectual. It feels like there's a God what is behind all of this and he exists eternally three persons in the Christ. The son who came here is the key component of God's redemptive plan. There's going to be some other time usually lied during the winter. Just at the very intuitive level. Yeah it just feels lonely. Yeah right yeah and I. It's okay it's okay. It's okay if it was okay for David if you read the Psalms ease teetering on the edge of disbelief at moments. Let's there right okay. It's hard if God God could prevent all Lavat physically manifesting every single time we struggle without and then he would the our pet monkey and he would do the stuff that we need them to do and that effectively would undermine his capacity as God and would make him something controllable and subject to the wins of people who struggle with the ups and downs of faith some cool with the arrangement we have him for the time being. It's just I don't know I I think he's enormously tolerant ungracious. In patients with the fact that might threshold of certainty continues to fluctuate in understanding. Frailty and all that he's God and we're not and on on some level we just out together. I think we're not we're in trouble. I remember growing up so I grew up in it and at home or Conservative home and I learned all all the right things now. The right answer is I went to college. Studied criminal justice because I didn't want to be in ministry as Minister. He will take make that sucker. When I was twenty two years old I was married with a an infant and We went to the funeral of young person in our church and I was nominal at best in terms of my faith and my relationship with God. I was a Christian but that was about Eh after that my wife she talked to you. I'm not a Christian. I've never put my faith in Christ. I know that in in everything I've set up to this point I. I know it's just not true. I've known that for a long time. I need to become a Christian. I mean this is our conversation right in my response to that moment is a twenty two year old guy raised in a Christian home and went to a Christian college was. I'm sure it's okay. L. Back on that and thank you said faith is ups and downs. And it's weird in his you you know. Where do we fall on all that? And how committed are we at this point or another but it doesn't have anything to do with weight that it really is all about God and it's about trusting him even when we don't understand or were real estate or whatever the case yeah skirt pouring concrete. Yeah any any keeping with that. I think one the pressures that you felt in that moment is a twenty two year old that I felt my moment is a twenty nine year old that I feel right now. A Dad with kids that that I think a lot of the people who were not referencing by name who in the last year of kind of publicly denounced their former faith. I think one of the pressures we all feel in this moment in history is the pressure to have a stance and land You know take the Spanish Difference Between Star and Sarah at star at. This is where I am right now. Sarah is unchanging to be. This is who I am forever run so I think a lot of us are using the language of Seir to describe where we're at in the process when the language of Star would be okay and and because we want to give people in those categories and line up the pieces on the Combat Board to decide which tribe is going to crush the other tribe. And we feel like. We're almost being dishonest. If we don't land in some place in tribe up right and it's why it's as big dramatic moment if we decided to flip tribes and tribes tribe. Some care about you. They don't care about me either. Don't care about an honest process of integrity or faith. That pressure acts on us and it makes us behave in ways that you know we feel like we have to land somewhere at age thirty nine now. I can't be mad at age thirty nine. Can't this be where I'm at at age fifty and I'm trying to honestly I got me a little passionate. I'm GONNA the alabamian knock down. Show better. No it's just fantastic and I think you know particularly particularly for us for our perspective is it's about authentic into your right and were offense. He gets thrown around a lot. But but all I mean by that and I think what we mean by that is used to be real and there are ups and downs. There are moments Melissa. Doubt there are moments of fear. All those things are human emotions and we can't escape But when we pretend or we put up image that if you are a Christian that you always added figured out. You're always doing the right thing. You're going to the right place. I think you should go to the right place. But yeah but that doesn't make you more or less a Christian or give you more or less relationship with God and mass important. Understand when you look at your show in you know everything. You're investing your life in communicating and producing He had a big goal for all of that. What was your big Goldie to publish through all oh can I have to? You can have as many as you want to all right. Everyone was best others works. I I know that I know that. A lot of my column colleagues other people who go around the INTERWEBS and talk about the same subject matter. I know that what a lot of people are we're going for is persuasion and trying to get people to land in a tribe or in a camp and in a lot of ways you can say oh that's perfectly biblical so I can't argue. I'm not prepared to criticize anybody. WHO has that agenda? I have this maybe naive beliefs though that understanding changes the equation for people. But I'd like to be with. My channel is help. People who already are inclined toward faith or doozy ethically into to their faith to understand the content of their own document and their own religion better so that instead of feeling like I can't be wrong about anything because if I am then what is all this about. I want people to hold onto that relationship with God tightly. Hold onto some of these ideas maybe just a little more loosely. Bring it back into the question box out of the answer box and think about why we think this. What does this text me? And how do we read the Bible. The Bible even come from. How do we know even should be reading it now? Why is it authoritative task? All those questions again. I think the answers are right. Yeah so what I WANNA do. There is 'cause our team will will abuse that term for the moment to understand our own content and relax a little bit and feel comfortable. Thinking about it candidly and not feeling like we got a land on the Internet. Every time issue comes up and announce our stance is thank play tennis at the ball back and forth get smarter order get more conversant in it. And that's I'm not descending from on high to do that and learning is I make each of these video so I'm learning on the fly with everybody else but then my other goal is I want people from team not so sure about God. The agnostic atheist crowd who only have lousy interactions actions with religious people that reaffirmed their biases to have a place where the income and tear about what people actually think and start to understand the shades and nuance and Matt. That these folks think this this is why they think it'd be folks. Think this and this is why they get and I really think that whether folks went to admitted or not everything we're doing right now in society is a dialogue with the claims of Christ natives might be very upset by that claim and I would understand handed but I mean even the term atheist is a negative statement and the gating statement toward God. It's all a dialogue with God. It's all a dialogue with these proposed answers to where we came from and why we matter in what the point of all of this is an in our culture like it or not. That's judeo-christian dialogue. Your it's been going on for two thousand years here in the West so what I think is if people understand that dialogue better understand why people think the stuff they think white people disagree. I think that understanding theology and talking theology can do so much more than make us more Christian. I think he can do so much more than Stronger than really enthusiastic about both of those things. Yeah I think talking theology going right at the thing that divides US can bridge the gap. And maybe what I get to do is be one teeny teeny teeny tiny little part of something that is pulling in the direction of healing instead of pulling further in the direction of wrecking everything in the name of our beliefs. So why have an educational channel not of ministry right right on. It's it's an educational youtube program that talks about things that usually only get talked about in ministry settings and it's meant to be very inviting inhospitable the for people who think that I'm crazy and disagree with everything I believe. So you'll be more of a a teacher than an apologist for say an apologist would say well we our teachers so we gave but but your goal is more to explain truth. Put context around than to argue someone else's position or try to argue them off. Yeah I I really want to do. A good job of representing physicians. I reject very very well. I would like people to get done watching video where I talk about something. I don't think that's the most fair treatment I've ever heard of that from someone who thinks I'm nuts. I said many many times over the years. I am not afraid of anyone who will take an honest look at scripture and read it and let scripture speak to them let the Holy Spirit. I think if you do that honestly you will arrive in the right place. I is able to do that on into roughly the creeds right. I don't argue argue. You ended up position. I need help. You understand what's being said and understand the Holy Spirit's job not mine anyhow so and be nice. Yeah that's GonNa be nice. He'd be cool about screaming at each other. We're to somehow convert right. If I ain't allowed on the new you believe what I say a man. Yeah I can't remember the last time I changed my opinion because that happened screaming at you now. Nice people who think things. I don't thank get my attention. And they're fun to talk to and it's much easier for me to give an honest hearing to what they think right people screaming at us like telling your wife to calm down when she's upset at you. Is that the right to read. Just gone down a okay so the Bible And there's a bunch of stuff here we could talk all day okay but Talk to me a little bit about making God the center of Scripture instead of yourself. Because I don't think there's any there'd be any argument that we live in a day. Where man has become the center of the Bible of message is preached explain? How man is the the center of the Bible and everything about you and everything is about your family and everything is about your life? When it's not a story of God? I mean from the from the beginning to the end. And he's talking about bread distinction a little bit but then talk about how that distinction really does give us hope because it's not the removal of ozone. It's not removing us from the Bible. It's just not making us the center Center point. That's a very well crafted question. Yeah well well said when when we think about the modern phenomenon of the ANTHRO post centric and throw out an said person centric version of the Bible where Firmenich your read on the Bible all all flows through the bottom line is what do I do. What do I read? The easiest thing to point is your. I mean the thing Benny. Dan just announced the whole health. Wealth Prosperity gaskell thing. I mean that's smoking gun kind of stuff where you take passengers that could not possibly have meant prosperity insperity Gospel to the original audience and you just mutilate them to make it say something that you know is going to sell really really well. Let's say those people aren't Christians. But I'm I'm saying a lot of what they say is in Christian that's outside the boundaries of scripture in the creeds. So it's Christian ish but it is something else. It's easy to point that. Say Man Dan yet. Those people are the ones who are getting this all wrong but the reality is for most of us. That's a pretty fringe group. I think the way we get it wrong. It is by making it about our behavior our vote our stance our tribe. What do we get the idea that if we're faithful maybe God won't give give us health and wealth but I'll get that wife we've wanted for so long he'll have our bid be the one that gets accepted and there's God care about that stuff? I get the impression it does sure there is God is not the God of the Scriptures is not Karma he's not some kind of cosmic Exchange where you don't look at naughty pictures for for eight straight weeks and then you'd get something in exchange and and that might sound ludicrous to you and your audience. But I've done the pastor for twenty five years you know how many people believe in functionally only some kind of car mayock relationship between the blessings in their life and and check stuff really it and so through our own endeavors to impress God with our Nag -nificant behavior and top notch theology gene and fantastic discipline weakened. Say This is all about God but the reality is that's about us that's about what we get and what we do and that backwards view. I think it lights a fuse. On the time bomb of faith crisis that went off in my life after seminary as mentioned earlier and so the danger of this is that eventually the whole thing collapses. Because you're at the center of a religion that God must be at the center at of your when you put yourself at the center of a religion. It the first time you really Jack this thing up you realize this is unsustainable. There's no no life there's no salvation. There's no hope here. But what what you just described the God central vision of history in the God centric version of the Bible that works even if there's no Bible that works because we all know that entity is working on us we all know the second law. thermodynamics antics Israel. We all know stuff is broken. Whether you think stuff's broken from a leftist perspective because in how dominant awful rightist SAR or rights perspective because how domino awful left this are Dr. Everyone knows it's a mess. Everyone knows we've tried for all of recorded human history to solve it with violence and governments and force in laws it. It's not working on the next election isn't going to be the one that makes it work. There has got to be something going on outside the system that can bring life into the system and and that's where the blessing of reading the scriptures as their intended God's domain character comes into play. You can just ease up and you can honestly relax to a degree in say the God who is on the other end of this equation he is. The Redeemer Is Kingdom is the Kingdom team. That's actually going to work out. And and the hope that comes with that is in such a contrast to the hopelessness that comes with my impeccable behaviour and how long I can string together not saying naughty words for whatever you're silly thing is sure and there's so much there why why I should we and this is twenty eight minutes into our conversation. This is where I actually wanted to end up. Okay there's so much to talk about man Why should we believe the Bible? I think this is one of the you know if the devil has a big plan. He's got a big. You know map somewhere. He's moving moving pieces around. I think one of his biggest is would be to destroy Reliability or the dependability or our confidence in the Bible. Because really. That's where we get what we believe for life and eternity and really anything that matters And you get tons of tons of information on your youtube channel a bunch of videos you've done on this but why should someone believe the Bible. Some of that doesn't winter someone that's not sure or maybe they're raised in a religious all but not you know they believe Trying to figure that out what the Bible that's a great question and why not everything else. Why not everything else? Two categories of answer it external and internal so starting and with the external the Bible's incredibly well-documented book when Martin Luther and Erasmus before him were Translating Organizing Greek version of the New Testament. They're working with five and six partial. Manuscript gripped was quite the endeavor now thanks to the world becoming smaller. Now the age of archaeology and exploration and the Internet Net got what twenty five to thirty thousand partial or complete any scripts at his hand written pre printing press copies of the new New Testament. Are you kidding me. It's just it's just staggering. So does that prove that Jesus is the son of God and everyone should be a Christian. No of course not what it does prove is that the Bible was wildly influential in years before right now and what it does prove is that you can do a really good job of reestablishing Original manuscripts the autographs as they're called must've looked like in the way they do. That is science now. All of studying the Bible obviously isn't isn't science there is art. There's interpretation this part is science what you do. Is You take all those manuscripts in your line up and you you look at win win. Who wrote what? I'm trying to do this quick but you look at when who wrote what the figure out all right. Well if we got at nine hundred ninety nine copies from you know early in the game that all say it this way and the first thing that we see says of this other way doesn't come around and tell say thirteen eighteen hundred yen okay. We know where the where the mistake was made to allow. People look from the outside of the Bible now like US giant game of telephone to haphazard mass. Who knows what let the originals were? Right answer is at this point in history. I think we are the most clear we've ever been on what the original text of the New Testament must have been so so in terms of external corroboration in the processes behind these many of which are carried out by people who aren't even Christians by the way people who would be critical of Christian theology but still do the Work of manuscript analysis I am. I'm wildly. Confident the what we have in in our hands right now is a Greek text is a magnificent reflection of what was written down in the first place really signs as standpoint not not not just purely scientific we've yeah yeah and then. There is a secondary layer of that manuscript. Alison that doesn't involve art. And I think people people on both sides of the argument. You're Dan Wallace's you're barred airman's would agree with me that there's an art to it as well. This would be handwriting analysis to try to nail down a specific typic- date on another wisn ambiguous manuscript. This would be Debating and theorizing as to where divisions happened happened in manuscript traditions. There's without getting all the way into it. They're kind of a couple of separate prominent manuscript traditions which overwhelmingly agree but functional personal differently or arranged differently so so there's also historical theory involved but in terms of just the raw data. Yeah you've got you've got science and and then on top of that you have some historical interpretation and a touch of art yom so all the disciplines come into play and and then beyond that you just got the question of. There's somebody might say. We'll be handled those manuscripts great. But how do we know. We have the right books in the Bible but and well to be fair to the critic that to a degree doesn't involve the question of faith but if we just look at the historical record of what Christians thought we can get really paying close now the Catholics and the eastern Orthodox both include what's called Protestants called the APOCRYPHA. What they would call the Doodo canonical books? They don't include the same list. So those two groups do not agree on. What do Terrell canonical books belong? There and the church fathers don't agree worried none. The Jewish scriptures don't include them so there is debate about that but effectively the theological influence of those Old Testament meant books that mostly date from between four hundred BC and the time of Christ. It's not huge illogically so even if we go to. The extreme ends of the debate about what books ought to be in the Bible you still got overwhelming theological agreement and and only the slightest disagreement in by volume in terms of. What's there so are the right books in the Bible? Well I mean the atheist Jason Christian might disagree about that but we can. We can say with very very strong certainty what Christians in the past thought about that and come to a conclusion that at least what we're reading is what believers thought was by throughout history. Thank you for watching but four to me with again next week every Friday at ten. Am these go live and also out Sudanese pen this time with you. You're listening instead of watching jump over. Did you to go ahead and take some time to subscribe to notification bell that lets you know in new constant comes online and we're doing our best to put more and more content out there and helpful content like this to help you live the life really that you were created live on hope in a world that's awesome so hopeless and trust follow along and find those things. Thanks for watching uh-huh.

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Los Angeles Times 8/18/20

L.A. Times Morning Briefing

03:20 min | 5 months ago

Los Angeles Times 8/18/20

"It's Tuesday, August eighteenth I'm kyle sour offer, and here's your local news from the Los Angeles Times brought to you by lucky charms magical mission. Let lucky the Leprechaun take you and your kids on an interactive adventure through the eight magical charm lands to restore magic available on your smart speaker. Just say open lucky charms, magical mission or search for wherever you listen to. PODCASTS. Today will be mostly sunny and very hot with a high near one hundred and nine degrees. So be careful if you're outside for extended periods of time, tonight expect partly cloudy skies and a low of seventy three. Our top story officials warned yesterday and up to three million people could be hit by rolling blackouts governor. Gavin. NEWSOM called a power shortage unacceptable and warned that the next few days will be very challenging the California independent system operator which runs the electrical grid for most of the state also issued a statewide flex alert through tomorrow the alert calls for residents to take voluntary conservation efforts from three PM to ten PM each day newsom frame the shortage as a consequence of the state transition from polluting gas plants to cleaner sources of energy. He further said that high demand placed on the grid due to record heat exposed gaps in terms of reliability newsom pledged a full investigation into the power shortage. In Education Los Angeles Unified School district said it is launching a corona virus testing and contact tracing program in an announcement. Sunday the district said it hopes to be able to test all students and staff for now the logistics are being fine tuned and school nurses will probably play a central role but even ask plan launched a district officials acknowledged that it is not yet safe for everyone who returned to campuses that will I be given to teachers and staff who are choosing to work on campuses as well as any children enrolled in daycare provided by the district. The program also aims to provide a roadmap for when schools can reopen. In other virus, news. Testing guidelines Thermometers and inadequate staff training may have contributed to the Cova nineteen outbreak in California prisons that's according to a report released yesterday by the State's Office of Inspector General the outbreak has killed at least fifty four inmates and sick and nearly ten thousand others and the Inspector General Survey Twelve Thousand Corrections, staff members, and found mixed results. The majority of staffers said they were always screened when entering the prisons on an average of five percent said they were not the report also criticized California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation officials for withholding key tracking information from the Inspector General. And finally federal prosecutors recommended that actress Laurie Lachlan be sentenced to months in prison and that her husband fashion designer j Moss emoji newly be sentenced to five months in a memo prosecutors said Jim newly deserves a heavier sentence because he was the more active participant and communicated regularly with the scheme's ringleader rick singer they each pleaded guilty to one count of fraud in May and meeting they passed off their two daughters as the recruits to get them into USC, and now a couple is scheduled to be sentenced on. Friday. The judge overseeing the case does not have to follow the prosecution's recommendation. For these stories and more visit l.. A. Times dot. com.

NEWSOM Education Los Angeles Unified Los Angeles Times California kyle sour California Department of Corre j Moss Leprechaun Gavin Cova Jim newly Laurie Lachlan fraud rick singer USC five percent nine degrees five months
709: Sell with Your Authentic Self, with  Larry Levine

Accelerate!

43:43 min | 1 year ago

709: Sell with Your Authentic Self, with Larry Levine

"It's time to accelerate. Hey, france. This is Andy welcome to episode seven hundred nine that's seven zero nine of accelerating. The sales podcast of record five another great episode lineup free today. Joining me as my guest as Larry Levin. Larry's professional sales coach podcast her and Amazon selling author of the book titled selling from the heart. How your self sells you, and we're gonna talk about the importance of authenticity and sales and how it flows through everything you do trust is the basis of a healthy sales relationship, it's virtually impossible to establish trust with another person unless you're acting as your true self being your own true self so Larry now, we're gonna talk about the importance of understanding your why why you're in sales. And how you make sure you integrate that Wyant every step in every interaction in your sales process. I want support not just to follow your sales process understand the why of each step of it. So it's really about becoming the best version of you. That's what is learning. How to become very best version you we're gonna dive into high should go about that process before you get Larry I won't take quick second talk about the sales house the sales growth, accelerated for BB sellers. Now, if you're not completely satisfied today with the trajectory of your sales career, then the sales house is the resource you need to reach the next level members get unlimited access to playbook checklists courses coaching mentoring and engaged community to help you sell with more confidence more trust more impact and greater Akunin. So it's all designed to help you win more deal. So remember because we like to say on the sales house. Learn more means to earn more. So come become the best version of yourself in the sales house. Visit sales house dot com. But is the sales house dot com forward slash join. All right. Let's jump into my guest today. Larry levin. Larry welcome to the show. AM looking forward to this one compared to others that you're on. Yeah. You don't look forward to. I will I'll tell you which ones. I don't look forward to. Okay. Where the ones where I get the question sent to me a week in advance. How's that? Yeah. Well, you know, I don't do that. So I know either do I I mean you've been on my podcast. I know it's it's is right off the cuff. So yeah, I want people just to show up and have a good time. Hopefully shows that I know will have a good time. So I do talk about your book selling from the heart. Good book, shake you up and read it there's certainly hopefully as you get through and listening to this episode of the show's me, go check out Larry show is you'll see why it's called selling from the heart. But we'll talk or. Few things that caught my attention the early in the book that relate to a lot of the things that I'm passionate about these days stores educating salespeople like so. Quote to start the book from Simon cynic saying people don't buy what you do they buy. Why you do it? And what you do simply provoked proves what you believe. So why did that strike a chord with you? You know for a couple of reasons I mean, I live eating breed. Simon cynic stuff of red start with why cover to cover and get his Mel, you know, emails every day. His message for some reason resonated with me along time ago. Where it words that were struck a chord is sales just brutally tough to begin with. In my opinion. I it's it's it's tough business. I mean, there's various reasons why people get into sales, but I was telling if you're gonna get into sales. You gotta have thick skin. But. I mean, if you don't get out of sales, but you know, it's the whole concept behind really understanding your why in a lot of people are talking about it. But I don't think people really take it internal. Okay. Why am I really doing this? What's the purpose behind why I'm in a sales role? Whatever capacity you're in. You got a really truly understand. What's driving you to do this in? Why are you doing it in and it simply I get it? It could be. Yeah. I wanna I wanna do this because of a paycheck or the money. And if you ask most sales people why they're in sales are gonna say I'm in sales because of the money, but there has to be a deeper reason behind it because the heaven studies to show the actually numbers roughly eighty percent surveys. Like, yeah. Not in it for the money. Am I think for me the successful people are never really for the money and the money as an outcome of what they achieve well in the money will just come. And that's I mean, don't get me. Ryan, we all. All like to have money. But it's you know, they'll say, it's the root cause of all evil. But when it's all said, none if you do the right thing, and you really understand why you're doing this. I'm a firm believer. Good things. Start to happen. Yeah. I think the expression money is the root of all evils based on people heard to your point earlier just driven by acquiring money. As opposed to driven to be in service of somebody else. Help your buyers and as a result of doing that. Well, you're in a lot of money will. Yeah. You know in in so true. And throughout the book, I put and you know, me so I was like throwing out little zingers. But I put little comments in and so forth inside the book. Just to prove a point there. Simple. They're simple to understand and in one of them, which expands on what you just said as I said, you know, you must lead what the heart not the law because people who lead what the wallet. I people can smell that in two seconds. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, this is. Has to do with integrity with your motivation making motivations transparent. The buyer wrote about that action. Today's daily Email that I sent out to to buy followers, which is. Yes, you can't connect if people are suspicious about your your motivations down. So we see this all the time and sales to build some trust. I'm here to serve him here to help you. But if you buy today. So I can get this this month, and you know, and that's communicated the buyer that. All right. Well, sort of like the products I'm gonna go ahead and buy it. But the relationships never be the same. No, no. It's not an end. I wanna key in on a couple of words. You just said, you know, that the the trust value in a couple of other ones. His people throw those words around. And it just rolls off the top of their tongue in it's mostly sales. But yeah, because you just came up with but right? So it's like everything I just said before that really doesn't matter. But I just want you to buy today. Right. And why in and it goes back to why wrote sound from the heart was I just brought me to the table in and it in a way 'cause I came out of I think all sales channels have some dysfunction to, but I came out of laggard, you know, slow to adopt sales channel, I came out the office technology channel is and I knew that if I brought my best version of myself to the business table, people were gonna sense it especially in a world where there's so much lack of trust in sales world right now. Well, always I don't know any worse or better than it's ever been. But we're not helping things certainly. Yeah. I think you know, trust is the basis of of today a healthy relationship. I don't care sat on the business side of the Merced jer. And that's what I always said is, you know, it's so interesting we use these words in the personal personal relationships in personal relationships matter a lot of us that how many take what they bring to a personal relationship and can transfer that to a business relationship. And that's what I brought to the table. And I think that's part of the missing link is. Treat, you know, treat people the same way if you, you know, you take your significant other your family and things like that you're gonna treat them one way. Hopefully, a great way take that and transfer it to your sales relationships in it starts to become a lot easier. But I think the big differences people go, you know, here's my personal life, and that's my personal life. Here's my business life, that's my business life. But to me, I mean, I always kept things simple. It's hard to juggle multiple personality. So I just kept. I'd just get what you get with me. Yeah. Way out. Left on pack there because I mean, it's it's. Let's go back to your use of the word. Why I think that that? There is this one level the existential. Why why am I doing sales? Why man sales? And certainly I think anybody that's in sales earning length of time remembers the early days when I had my question myself probably every day for year. Why I got started about why my doing this? But I think the otherwise once people understand that is we don't. Educate people about okay. So great, my why is I want serve on help solve problems on. But then it's like okay for every step. I take what's the why behind every interaction? I take with and have with the buyer. Yeah. And to me, this is the big disconnect as we have people want to make a Crowder sales and want to be professional want to be successful. But we just tell them how to do things. We don't tell them why they need to do it. What the impact is. And to me. That's that's like the second level. Second order. Why that that is missing from a seller's these days, and I I think parv environment, and we'll get into that. Because I have some questions for about that. But it's. Increasingly were not I think increasing were sort of relying on so wrote training for sales people and say, you have got the process, and we've got the technology than bedded in the process, and that's that's primary. Yeah. As don't question it, just exit the process. Yeah. But. How much? Well, I'll throw some out there. How much of this is? Cheer sales is a process, but how much of it? Yeah. I mean goes off into different directions in Iowa said. You know, when we started talking about that the first thing that comes to mind as I start thinking about this as. Somebody'd ask me while back. You know, just in a few short words define what sales is said. It's the art of the help. And you got to continually be helping people along the way, which means you got to continually be helping yourself, which means you gotta continue to be learning. You've got to continually be bringing the goods your clients. And if you don't expect to be replaced. Well, yeah. If you're not the results are showing. So let's talk about that a little bit because it's and sorry expand on that. As you talk about education. And obviously, this is big thing with me with the sales house in all we're doing educate right thousands of sellers. There is. This whole idea of how how should how much of themselves should people be investing in order to keep learning. And we see this disconnect does certainly surveys of let's say workers are thirty five and under is one primary reasons, they leave companies, they don't feel they're being developed are we give an opportunity to develop and stead they might be given this wrote bold fashioned sales training, but not learning the why not really understanding, you know, the real importance of us every step by take every interaction they have. And so they have to as much as we'd love to advocate, and I do have Kate, but companies need to invest more in this type of education as long as I've been sales, which is even longer than you've been in sales is. It's never changed. So sort of reconciled myself to the facts, and it's part of the reason we started the south the companies aren't going to step up and help people at this type of education. You have to invest in yourself. How do you get people to buy into that? Wow. And it's it's interesting because maybe it was how has raised Andy. Right. I had no problem. Investing in myself. And there's simple in there. Simple things that I want people to realize especially in sales. They can invest in the in this in themselves by simply reading a book or listening to a podcast scenery free resources a ton. There's a ton of free resources, and what's what's really interesting in that that I encourage sales people that do anchors. This all the time is your clients or some of the best source of help. And what I mean by that too. Few sales people will spend time with you know, I'm just gonna throw some titles out there right to few sales people really understand the role of CFO or the though not really understand the role of IT manager a mid level manager, you're somebody in purchasing, right? Help me understand how you do your job. Right. Right. Reno. Why are you in this job? You know, what are your metrics used the define how you do a great job in? You'll be amazed. Because some of the best learning that I got some of the best education that I got was right from my clients. I mean, I've written about this before is. I was fortunate to run the clients, basically mentored me. Yeah. And those are just that's what I encourage sales field sales people to do their so, but you have to give vulnerable with yourself, which means you don't know everything. Showing true. Yes. But you know, I've talked about books podcasts. I mean, simple things to invest in yourself. I go take a go take a course on accounting, right or go take a course on marketing yourself or go take a course on some forms of technology. These are just simple things that are out there. But I it's so funny because they'll invest more at Starbucks will in their own learning in a monthly basis. Yeah. Until I get back to the point about how do we how do we as an industry as a professional autoweek convinced sellers, not just people knew in their careers. But people at every stage ler career now whether the beginning are they're in their fifties. Or sixties you still have the imperative to learn the stay current. How do we how do we convince people the importance of doing that? Because this I think you'll see some industries like lawyers accountants, and so on they have continuing education requirements, and I've had this conversation without people about I wanna point we should start having these professional certifications certainly do in in other countries for sellers. Yeah. And there's been an attempt to serve. Create some of that here in the in the US North America. But. Yeah. Is that is that what's going to take to get people to say get serious about. Okay. I'm going to invest in California lawyers have to spend twenty five hours a year. I think in continuing education. I would I would love to see that into your point is a close friend of mine. She's retired chiropractor say thing thing shoes required once a year to two I think it was sixteen hours to full as of continual education. Offsite somewhere. You know, they brought in this in the Los Angeles marketplace, but they would bring him to the to a spot somewhere in Los Angeles. And they'd have to go through to full bays of ongoing. Search I would love to see that happen in sales world. I mean, I don't know what it'll take. Yeah. I mean, it's it's there's no regulatory body at this point. So it's it's interesting because I write about him in my book is the difference. Puna sales rep sales professionals. We start talking about sales professionals. What are the search bind you becoming a sales professional? Yeah. Right. You spoken made that distinction chapter two or something through deals, so. And you mind tell people what you think the differences between a professional sales. I mean, we were talking about it right now, I think sales professionals continually educate themselves end sales reps. This do the bare minimum just to get by. But a sales professional, and this is keyed in on it in I commented on somebody's hostess goes back probably about a year or so ago and everyone wants to make the analogies. Andy between a professional sports on sports teams. We love to clean house. I mean, we love to do that right high. You know, you gotta go out and hire ex athletes. Right. You gotta go out and hire ex collegiate athletes, bring them into your sales team, right? Will nothing worse than bringing those people into a sales team that doesn't plan practice in prepare every day in watch how that athlete starts to succumb to their environment. So I always say this is you know, that sales professional cares about what they do that sales professionals gonna go above and beyond. They're going to continually educate themselves to help them do their job better. Yeah. What? But and you make this point in the book, but it's implicit what you're saying. That sales professionals are sort of the top one percent two percent, whatever that is. And I think the imperative I'm talking about is that if we want to make people believe that they can become the best version of themselves, which I think is really the goal, right? When you're trying to educate. I sir brought this up before with other people's. I think we put too much emphasis on excellence. All right. I think I think what we wanna do is. We have people be good at what they do for me. Somebody's good at what they do. They're reliably hitting quota. They may not be the superstar. Exactly. But the way that we serve managing label people in sales these days zero their superstar or you're nothing. Right. And and I think that that's partly because we're half the fixation on excellence and excellences relative. Yeah. Some good at what they do. Excellent at it. Right. I mean, it's it's but the label's good become a pejorative. You're settling to be good. Hey, I would rather have a sales team with you know, we'll may one superstar and eighty percent of people are good at what they do. Good professionals. What they do. Then having been three superstars in their rail serve lagging dramatically that this is I think it's sort of pride issues. I feel like we're talking over. So the the people in our profession. Who aspire to be consistently good at what they do. But think that unless they're the top one percent what that effort. No e-. Exactly. And that's why I wrote the first couple of chapters. In fact, the first three chapters of the book is all about becoming the best version of yourself. And I think that's great, right? I mean, that's not a that's not a destination right becoming the best of yourself is not someplace you ever arrive and say, okay, did it because you working environment? That's constantly changing. There's no we none of us work in a static environment. We all have to keep learning. But if they make that part of their lives kind of crow productive career make money support your family and be filled by what you do by being good. Or what you I think we'd just set the bar and expectation and go to conference right talks about being excellent. Right. And it's like, that's what people be good. Yeah. Well, I and you, and you know, what's really interesting. I'm going to throw a baseball analogy at you. Window, send an alert to the listeners those sports coming up. No. But but this pruder point for because I'm just a baseball junkie. But I think this drives the point. That's why wearing orange she. Yeah. Right. You can see you can see behind me, what will will for our podcast listeners. Not seeing this as giving Larry hard time before because it looks like he's wearing a prison jumpsuit, bright, orange prison jumpsuit. He's not on probation is just the lunch. That's all good, but to your, but to your point if you take a look at some of the most successful baseball managers that are out there today. Uh-huh. They were average at what they did it were successful. But they were average right? So take a look at like, Mike socia- from the angels or Bruce Bochy from the giants, right? Just to name some of them. But black who's the, you know, the manager of the Rockies. They were good. What they did were. They the top one percent of the top two percent. Probably not. They're saying you're saying managers are as players as players players, right? Dr your point, but they've had successful careers as managers in in worm going. This is you know, we can define this. However, you wanted to find it right to the point where we drive to become that one percent. And I agree. I think there's too much emphasis being placed on it. So then you know, the other ninety nine percent become confused. But I think it's okay to be average. It's okay to be good is long as you say, you know, what what can I do just to get a little bit better every single day and not Regis rely on that mindset. Okay. I've arrived at being good. Now. I'm there. Yeah. Agree. A hundred percent. Excess excellences is relative. Yeah. So let me ask another question. Then I had a lot of things on my show. It got to before we ran out of time. This one. I don't agree with you on this one is because you wrote in the book that quote near concerned about the repair fries actually concern about the current state of the sales profession, which seems the lack of commitment to excellence a culture of excuses and finger pointing has replaced, hardwork grit and determination. Why do you think? That's the case. I don't think there's well. I I'm gonna throw it back at you. How come you? Don't agree. I'm just curious. And that's okay. Yeah. I love have. I love having. I think that that not accusing you of this. But I have directly accused other people. This is on the show is I think there's every generation has an stall about how hard things were how difficult things were for them when they were coming of age, and in in the profession and so on and yeah, throw my work with. Individual sellers and companies and so on. Yeah. I don't I don't really don't think there's a generational difference. In terms of. Dr in terms of wanting to succeed when to achieve certain things on a life may have a little bit different path to do it than than we did. But I came of age, we were, you know. So typical field described boomers as yeah. Yeah. We love to be told what to do. Yeah. We didn't expect feedback didn't expect pats on the back. We just made us way raised by parents postwar generation, parents, whatever. People are different. But I don't see any. I don't see any softness. I see people just like we were when we started our career. But yeah, it's not you as people other people have written books, recently, very much more strongly, stating similar feelings. I think that's a I don't think it's true. And be I think that it's it's. Part of this whole labeling thing we do with with sellers and trying to get people excited about investing in themselves and seeing what they can chief. Yeah. We don't put labels on that said. Yeah. Behind our, you know, inherently your your little soft. You can't really cheap we achieved. 'cause I don't think that's the case at all. Yeah. No in agree. But you know, whereas gone with s at and and maybe it's right. If the generation and how I was raised, but I see even sell seems I work with if you ask them to say, you know, an average sales person in the team, right? Hey, why did this happen, right? How can we missed quota or or why'd you have a bad week or zero going? This is just start him some questions, they'll fingerprint. Well, this happened or this happened. When all actuality the reason why did hit quota is because you and maybe I take a strong stance on it, Andy. But when it's all said and done, you're solely responsible for your outcomes. Now want my point is I think if if you transplant yourself back thirty years ago into the eighties. Nineties whenever the do. My math whenever that was. And you were at the experience level you are now you're working sales teams you'd find the Zach same behaviors going on yet. This is thing is. There's so much of what people against Posad experts talk about that's the is so anecdotal. But as people are trying to take as truth, which did how. I don't think people change that much. I think it's a buyer's haven't changed every cell the buyers of change no information available to them and how they process it acquired that information's change at humans, the brains work the same. Yeah. Know, we don't evolve that quickly thirty years give me another hundred thousand years, how grant your point though, people process information differently. But I think the true sellers as well. And I think for those in the business of helping sellers. Yeah. Yeah. Got not point fingers. But has just like the I think we need to take a step back and say, let's not be so nostalgic. Yeah. Hey when walked to school uphill both ways when we were kids that type of thing, it's citrus pretty much the same people are still at the same. Some the trappings are different does technology offices change people outreach to the prospects. And so on. I don't know. I'm I'm uneasy with how we characterize, and I think I would just scourge people. Yeah. No, I agree at and and it's so funny because I think one of the best books I've ever read. I was this assets. The other day what's best book read. What's what's one book that had a huge impact on you? And I always go besides my book Shamin Abbasiya. And I took mine out years on all that I go how to win friends and influence people right is is just an all time classic in. When you say, you know, not lodge change. I would agree because if you look at the core fundamentals of Dale Carnegie's book, and I was always say if you know in the back of the room of Dale Carnegie was sitting in the back of a room inside of a sales team, somebody references book, it have big smile on his face because that books what eighty something years old? And it's still extremely valid today. Thirty six yes. Something like that. And I go, you know, the core foundations of his book still hold true today in it's about building relationships with people in changing the way, they think. It's you know, it just today. They're like you said there's so much more information. There's so much more noise out there. But the core fundamentals are still the same and the core fundamentals will you and I've been speaking about still the same. My point was just that. I think people are the same to if I were to say who's gotten soft? Not that I'm necessarily saying this. But if if I was to point the finger, I would say frontline sales managers are the the big issue is more than anything else is that. Is that again, given serve the technology exists more transparency into the the work habits, and the activities of the sellers is managers have become and sir special special to certain segments become, sir. Drone by the metrics. And and maybe don't have enough experience little more fearful of letting people color outside the lines buying their sellers color outside lines, which you and I both know is is how people become the best version, sells, you know, they find what works for them. They become an not a clone of everybody else in the office. Not a clone of which seal out of the new technology tools being used say. Yeah, we can record calls now. And what we want you to do is want you to be like. Jennifer, who's crushing? It would be like, and it's like. Some good stuff. But how do I take that? Incorporate that into what I do. Or maybe what applies to me? Some doesn't. But there's such an emphasis now on conformity. And and and I think that's if people say one sellers soft, I think. They've got managers that are fearful of letting them. Develop. Okay. So why do you think that happens? Well, goes even further up the chain there, and they're there and there, and there you go, and and just a simple view on this whole thing is what our sales people doing to become better. That's that's one thing. Right. Because I think we all become better what are managers doing to becoming better and whose Basel for that? And what our executives doing to become better? So if if no one cent, you know, his observation of no one if sales people are viewing their sales managers as hey, you know, they're not doing anything to improve us. Right. They're not improving themselves in sales managers going will. You know, what I see executives really aren't doing anything. This is the vicious. It's a cesspool is vicious cycle. And then where does that stop? And I think I think the have been some changes in that regard. Yeah. Over the years. I mean. I got started were a big company. They pal hasn't classroom training for eight to ten weeks. My first year. I mean, it was it was intensive right? Don't happen as much anymore. Now. I it was interesting. I read I read a friend of mine's article on Forbes this morning and happened to see it scrolling through my news feed in linked, Dan. And and it was about a he loves asking questions to see ios in executive level management. Who's your most important asset? In. It's always year employs and things like that. Well, the next question is how much time and what he doing to invest in your employees. Yeah. Number enough. And it's and it's never enough. But you want them to succeed. You want them to become better than how much and how often are you investing in your people? Well, I I run a program for offer this service for for client companies part sales houses a book club for company. So we'll just to create a learning environment within the company and one of the stipulations is to do. It is to greet a set aside twenty minutes a day to read. Now, we have a book list that would create ten books. Read over twelve months. Come to set aside twenty minutes every day during the workday during the sales hours for people to stop everything they're doing and read in the book and a few minutes reflecting on what they read and journaling it. And the biggest pushback I get from slits for managers saying, well, we don't have time to do that. I gosh. It's like. Show you the math. Of course, you have time to do it. I mean, your sales people are spending roughly a third of their time actually interacting with prospects or preparing interact with prospects. A lot of time. Right. Lotta time. Oh, no. No. We don't just like. It just means it's not important to him at that time in that moment. I think it's fear. What their freight is? Will you have set aside this time, and then we don't meet our number. I'll be some complaint the finger at me as saying this is this is what I'm doing is. Yeah, I'm vesting now. So that future years developed this culture of learning in our environment were showing the sellers in organization that we care about them. They were devoting time and money to put this program on ongoing basis. And that's all fair risk aversion. But I can guarantee you this. I mean, you degrade me any they'll find thirty minutes day to do absolutely nothing. But that's okay. Yeah. And again, not saying this is necessarily new right? I think I wasn't trying this thirty years ago. But it's the case where today I think servic sensu to just by Ken greater transparency. Afforded by the tools. We is into our daily activities is people are frayed say not we need to take this time. Yeah. And and you know, you bring up a good topic because you bring up the book club. I've been you know, my books now. Four or five months in not. And this is where I started picking up on the book club is I'll be amazed. How many people, you know? I'm sure reading your book as book club people reading my book as I go. You know, what I applaud I applaud the sales managers actually do that. They'll take a sma- group ten twelve sales people. NO Rita chapter. Right. They read a chapter. I did it. You know, my last tenure inside the office technology world, we had to read three bucks as a major county, man. We had you know, every Monday, we went around and somebody who's responsible for driving the Chattan, exactly. And they had to come up with a couple of questions to get people to talk about the book knows actually really good. Because you think about it when you can read a good couple chapters in thirty minutes. That's just fifteen minutes. Read fifteen journal for five and yeah, when you see companies do this, then they. Hold depend what the customer the monthly or quarterly webinars where we talk about this as the books with them and their sales team is people are sitting there with their journals in their referencing. And they wrote stuff down. They understand that they've an integrated the knowledge very simple exercise. Right. I mean, you think about it. But one company did this with. I don't think any of their sales team had read a sales book. So after a course of of twelve months that read these ten books that much smarter. Now, the parts that they absorbed an integrated what they're doing one thing for book, whatever, but they just got exposed to so much more knowledge there that much more open to learning that much more capable. Well, you know, the in the end the other thing too in the in the positive thing that comes out of this is all those books that those sales teams raid. Imagine the conversation starters that they have when they're sitting at the business table at somebody. Hey, Andy by teams reading the book, right now, titled dot dot dot, right? Just curious. Have you heard about the book before hey in chapter one of the book? This is what I uncovered if you don't mind. I mean, if you like reading books, I'll go grab one of these books, and then you know, you and I can discuss this here. I'm going this raid opportunity to reposition yourself inside your client, your cross Bax is. Yeah. Well, then point earlier to us is over certain over. The course micro. Received a lot of book recommendations from clients. Yes. Yeah. Some asked me for my consulting business may ask me not that long ago. How did I qualify? CEO's of companies. Potentially working with consultant. And I said, well, yeah, my disqualification was based or qualifications based on my walked into the CEO's office. How big was the stack of books on the desk? Yeah. If they have books on the desk, they didn't have book shelves that were loaded with books as like. Yeah. That's probably isn't gonna work. Yeah. And so interesting because. We just don't think I don't think there's enough people out there little set aside the time to read, and it's an I don't care if it's on audio. I don't care if it's you hold the book. I'm still owe fashioned. I got a hold a book in my hand. Yeah. I don't. But I have an I bet but everything's on my bed. But yeah, that's the. As a result of having traveled her longtime all around the world with the huge briefcase accommodate as many books as possible. Guess hated the idea of being on seventeen hour flight with no books. To me that was the fate. Where's the almost? Yeah. Especially depend on my seats or and one last point to bring up about about books too is. I think it's it's been easier publish books. I think that's maybe one thing that's coming into. This is several proliferation of books professional content about sales. Does it feel like we need like a rating system for it's like? This book was written by somebody who actually went on sold something as opposed to eighty percent of them where they weren't written that people had some experience perhaps. But, but you just junk that's not just a rating based expertise, but level, right? This isn't book geared for this level of of seller. Let's try make we don't we don't pinpoint that enough. And I think it'd be much more effective rather than writing a book that says, you know, everybody, regardless of the Krish read this book essence are a little rating system on it. So people say, oh, well, that's for me. Yeah. No. I love it. Because you know, the first word that pops into my head when I when I was listening what you're saying practitioner. You know, why I'm going through this is I just had this conversation yesterday with somebody. We're on a call actually were on zoom com. We started talking about that, you know, their sales team really latches onto when somebody comes in their office ox about a let me share with you, the, you know, the practicality behind this. Let me share with you what I've been how I've been using this all sender ears. Go like this. Right. They're all in as opposed to that person who comes into their office in their sales team who's been out of the field for fifteen or twenty years, though. Listen, but are they really listening to them? And I think that's the that's the big key with with books today is you can tell you read a lot. I read a lot. I could tell you know, in two seconds in reading the book is okay, where's that person in their journey? I agree. Yeah. Yes. I've probably probably err on the side of being too judgmental about some of that. I think the other thing too is is just need to be shorter. And you know. Certainly not alone in this people say well business, every the first fifty pages because the thesis out there they supported and get beyond that it's like miss R filler, maybe a little extreme. Right. But if I look at the books that I've read that the biggest impact on me over the last three years. Max hundred pages. Yeah. I mean mine was what one hundred eighty something ages. But I mean, if you take out, you know, the beginning parts of all that if you went to peer content inside selling from the heart. You're probably as probably one fifty one sixty somewhere in that neighborhood. Yeah. My next one's short. For that reason, you won't be more concise. You'll make more practical for people. But anyway, we got off track a little bit. But all right. Larry great talking to you. It's always good talking to you. Yeah. And hope that you can evade the authorities but longer with your urine jumps it on. Okay. I I just know the next time you and I on a call. I'll definitely making a mental note right now don't have the orange steered on right? 'cause I'm gonna get some backlash on ending give a number on the back of that. Or? Your name. It's it's on. It's on the sleeve right here. Sorry. I can't see it. California Department of corrections. You know, it's so funny because I told you before, you know, before we hopped on the on on this podcast. I was I'm involved with Columbus ahead, all these orange and all that. But somebody actually brought a set of orange cones ended set him on the table as a gag right? Because I wore orange all the time. Could be spotted bicyclist. I forget, no. That's a great. Great visibility color got going on there. Well, thanks, man. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. So all right. Larry fantastic. Tell people they can connect with you. And learn more about selling from heart. You can connect me. Couple of raising go right to the website sound from heart dot net. You can listen to the podcast through signed from the heart dot net. Download on your favorite podcast apps. You can find me active on linked in Larry Levin. Nineteen ninety two. And if you really wanna find the personal side of me your born nineteen Ninety-two. No, oh, actually. No. I was I wish I was born in nineteen ninety two. But the whole reason that came out it was significantly Excelsior. I got married Jewish. I'll be going on twenty seven years with my loving wife. The Sherry nice, very nuts. But if you really wanna see the personal side in what I really enjoy doing you can on Instagram and that you can find me at Larry one being on Instagram. All right. Excellent. Good. Well, again, real pleasure and look for tuck Nick into. Yeah. My pleasure as well anytime. All right. We'll do that. All right. Don't make those promises. I'll I'll take. It's all good. That's fine. All right. We'll talk soon. All right. Okay. Friends that was celery for the week. First of all as always I want to. Thank you for joining me. I guess Larry Levin. Join me next week as my guest, David sill, David is head of sales enablement at discover org. And Dave, and I talk about why and how to build a culture of trust in the sales organization, and how leaders can use the trust to drive the growth and development of the sellers on their teams, really important topic. So be sure to join us then before you go don't forget to check out sales house the all in one sales growth engine for BT sellers. Just like you. Visit sell dot com. Look forward to seeing you there. Thanks again. For join me until next week. I'm your host anti Paul good selling everyone.

Andy Larry fantastic Larry Levin sales training Larry Simon baseball head of sales Akunin france Los Angeles Ryan Instagram Dale Carnegie Starbucks California Amazon California Department of corre US
Finding Light in Dark Places

The goop Podcast

48:18 min | 4 months ago

Finding Light in Dark Places

"I. Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it. Want it. Let it come from the intention of real truth for. And then let it go. The mayor. Is. unbound. It's limitless but we will use words to limit ourselves when people stop believing that somebody's got your back or Superman's coming, we turn to ourselves and ask where you become empowered. Courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm GonNa Paltrow, this is the Goop podcast bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOS scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Today is no exception a letter lease fill you in on her extraordinary guest. All right over to elise. Hi, and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Elise Loenen groups, chief content officer, and Gwyneth Co host. Today's guest is David Sheff, the author of the Number One New York Times, bestselling book beautiful boy, which is a movie you might have seen with Steve Corral. He has a new book out called the Buddhist on death row how one man found light in the darkest place, which is heart-wrenching and profound in it. He tells the story of Jarvis Jay Masters, a man whose childhood was marred by incredible trauma leading him down a path of violence, and ultimately after being set up for the murder of a prison guard on. Through during his trial, a criminal investigator offered to teach him breathing techniques and though he hesitated up first, he began exploring both meditation and Buddhist Teachings Ultimately Pass Show dron became one of his teachers guides, and then he in turn led many around him to a place of enduring peace. I'm dying to actually talk to him and David is working to help us make that happen. But in the interim, I hope you'll diving today's episode because it has a lot to teach us about the universality of suffering and how we can all keep each other alight and aloft during dark times. Realize we're all connected we're all. Joined by that suffering. And if we try at least to help others. We connect with them we connect with all humanity. And suddenly, we're not in this much pain anymore. Okay. Let's get to my chat with David Sheff. So thank you for your latest book and Thank You for beautiful boy and I'm excited for whatever you're working on next. I started. With the acknowledgments I don't know I have this quirk where before I read a book I read the acknowledgement and I noted that this book was apparently. Due to years ago. So why did this take so long? Was it just this need to get His life right or were you hoping that there would be sort of a happy ending? To write about. A definitely would have liked to have to be in the book with some new great traumatic happy ending where the guy right about Jarvis masters WHO's on death row Walks out of the prison, a free man as he should but that didn't happen and that's not really why it took. So long because I wasn't waiting for that, I, think he has A. Good chance of getting out because season there's evidence about that, but it's going to be a while because the process is so slow. The Appel appeals process in California anywhere in the country, but it took so long because. I've written a lot of books and realized that I've written from the outside the journalists looking in. The difference here is because this guy was spending time with. was confined. For most of his life in a cage, basically, you know it's not the kind of book but I could write you know I'm walking into. The. Whatever to you know someone's house in some neighborhood described the trees and this was about what's going on inside someone's head because really the book is about change. It's about how Jarvis changed from the person that he was when he ended up in prison when he was nineteen to the person he is now who's this next person Buddhist practitioner and teacher and writer But change from my own experience in football I heard other people it's not just Jarvis Story. It's about the story of anyone who's interested in wants to change because of various struggles in our lives but it happens inside change happens inside the mind it's not external be years I spent visiting Jarvis were all in the same small tiny room that a cage literally. Occasionally there'd be. People in cages next to us. People Scott Peterson Taylor. I. Mean it was surreal. To be there, but it was a struggle for me to figure out how to write about how a person changes because as I said, you know that's something that happens you can't show it. The outside know it's something that happens in the mind that I had to figure out with a help of ladder how tell the story and that's there were many many many drafts. Yeah and I thought some of the you know there were many beautiful moments and sort of the exploration, two of his relationship with children with amazing and almost to be a student with them I thought was set a gift to the reader as they navigate what he's going through I thought the beginning or near the beginning when I think it's melody you know who's I sort of extorting him to try. Meditation right because it had worked for her and her traumatic past and his response is essentially like I cannot close my eyes in here. I can barely survive. I've been taught throughout my life like you close your eyes you get jumped or killed, or and I'm such an a searing idea of not only being not able to find peace internally but this this. Hyper vigilant state of being amidst a sea of you know serial killers and he talks about the you know the neighbor down the way who you know murdered children are rape children being with people who have done incredibly heinous things and this idea that he was being asked to close his eyes and sit there I thought that was such as such an incredible way. To Start I was also stunned by that was really. Moving and as he say, it really sort of summed up who was at van in what his life was like he was in a situation where it wasn't just in San Quentin where he was that risk of. Really violent time in San Quentin. It's still horrific in many ways, but it was worse than when he was nineteen years old. So that was about thirty five years ago, and so the threats from the outside were extraordinary and just inmates it was also guards. It was a war inside the prison of between gangs. Black gangs against the white area nation gangs in the Mexican mafia and the guards were aligned with the gangs in many cases. So he he was in serious threat, but it wasn't only then he basically had grown up in neighborhoods. That were incredibly violent. You know lots of addiction and lots of guns and you know he'd been involved in. Armed robberies in. Drive by shootings and you know it was. Really a dangerous and in scary and he admits violent life and as he said, he was suffering he was terrified when he was in prison, he was being tried for murder of guard that he did not commit, but it was a crime that could bring the death penalty. So he was suffering that. Know terror in addition to being in this incredibly violent all in this violent, these violent surroundings and. Guards pushed down the stairs was a very, very unsafe and scary environment. and His investigator Melody, Norma Child was she was just so sad she wanted to help him being outside the prison. There wasn't much she could do. So the one thing that had helped her in her life when she was suffering and when she was struggling with meditation in so yeah, she thought she would offer it to Jarvis. And she did and he wasn't open to it. He said, you know that's what you got for me. You know meditation I mean here know risking my life every single day. But eventually because he was so desperate, he opened to it and said, you know what is that meditation shed? What are you talking about? She said you sit the close your eyes. You breathe your follow your breath. You know he looked at her like she was clue less than I. Guess in some ways you know she didn't understand what she was saying to somebody who was in Jarvis situation because he he lived in prison and he spent his life. Where he said, you know you don't close your eyes at you are always looking out you're looking you know everywhere including over your shoulder because you're always at risk of being attacked and you don't sit on the floor. He said because on the floor you have no legs you meaning you have to be ready to defend yourself. So that's where he began and the idea that he slowly opened up to the idea of sitting in closing his eyes is a I guess it's a testament to both. His own desperation to. Find something that would help him. Survive And Melody. His this woman this sort of extraordinary teacher, her patients with him and her caring for him and he ended up trusting her and felt. If this was something that she thought would help him. Maybe it would yeah and I loved to sort of that early because I think that for so many of us who are not on death row and living lives in relative comfort etc. Though we'll talk about that because he also talks about sort of the pen pals he creates over the years and how they reach out to him with seemingly perfect lives get are suffering and are miserable but he talks about sort of closing his eyes after this credibly traumatizing childhood and. As you mentioned this life of violence and compounded by this completely unfair and inappropriate death sentence for a crime that he didn't commit where the people who did actually commit the crime didn't even get the death sentence I. Love that. That's also sort of there's a critique of our judicial system that runs through the book without being the primary focus of the book. But when he closes his eyes and his overwhelmed by panic, I loved her advice because I feel like it's Counter to what you often hear, which is like just push those thoughts aside and said, she's she instructs him to read to you from Your Book Melody, repeated another instruction from her teacher. When you begin to panic, picture the upsetting events and feel the uncomfortable feelings from a safe distance instead of being inside them, you can watch them, come you watch them, come watch them go. The teacher had said to remember that fear is a thought and thoughts can't hurt you thoughts can't kill you which is so but so many of us are persecuted by our thoughts right? We give them the power to continually throughout our lives, hound us and essentially she. Asked him to consider just sitting in it and facing them and not works. Right. And it's hard I, do think that many of us have. This idea that meditation is all about transcending emotions. Bliss really but I guess that's not. What it's not what is an Jarvis learned it over the course of researching the book I learned it too because I didn't get it. You mentioned that one of his teachers his closest friend actually is pam show during the Buddhist nun and she describes it as a sitting in the fire. and. There is a Buddhist expression you're the only way out is through. So it's not about. Peace Submit Ultimately. I think it is about finding kind of peace, but it's about. Facing you know who you are. You know it's not running from who you are and the suffering that we've all endured it's inside us and and it's not magically going to disappear and if you just push it, you know if you repress it, it doesn't lose told on you but at the same time. After, a lifetime of repression. It's just too scary and to maybe dangerous even in some ways to go back into sitting that fire. So the process involves an understanding that, yes, it won't kill you even though it feels like it will to go back to the worst experiences of your life because you know. The. Whole Betas thing is you know where you are in the present we don't know about the future. The past subways doesn't exist, and of course, you know if think about it in those sorts of you know that sort of. Existential spiritual. Whatever way you know it's true. We don't know the past is gone and we are in the moment and we don't know what's going to happen. You know in the next Min- and so those memories powerful as they are in a scary as they aren't as much pain. As they contain. They're just that they are memories and we can survive them and we can in some ways. Surmount them and and kind of defeat them so that they no longer are what did they no longer control us they no longer. keep us in these rats that we live in where we make the same mistakes over and over again, and we're suffering the same childhood traumas over and over again we feel like we are worthless. We don't deserve happiness. We don't deserve committed relationships because we don't. We have such a bad feelings about ourselves. Bad self-esteem. So. Yeah. Is Jarvis experienced this process of Meditation. And he was sitting there on expecting some glorious reward I. Mean he had to I mean there were times when he? Woke up from a meditation and had experienced this idea of being the president to the point that he was astounded because he realized that while he was in the state, he actually wasn't in prison. He was somewhere else and it was sort of this glorious freedom for awhile. But sometimes when he was sitting the worst feelings you know came up, it was some of the things about his fears of the president. And some of it was the past yet memories of being beaten when he was a child or being burned when he was a child or being forced to fight other kids when he was a child and. He would go into these parent panics and this terror and. When he remembered what he said when he would remember an premachandran later and he would remember to come back to the breath. He was able to survive that and that's what I guess. She met by sitting in the fire and not avoiding it not running from it and by pulling himself out with bread with that breath with meditation. He survived an as he says, you know the memories lose their power over time. But again, you know the pain is enormous reliving those horrors was for him. Terrifying and he would. Stop. Meditating because of his panic and he would wake up when you from a meditation in trembling in this cold sweat and didn't want to go back and was afraid and the process takes years and for many many worse it was amazing to see the. Sort of end the layers of the onion as you sort of go into his experience. As you mentioned, the things that you mentioned being beaten his mom, his relationship with his mother, his perception that his father had come to try to kill them all burnt on the house, which later I guess proved. Maybe not true. Someone else, and then I thought the most the is hard to put his experience on a pain scale but that the loss of his baby brother and thinking throughout his life somehow not really being able to even go to that moment 'cause it was so painful. But this idea that he carried that it was his fault God it's just it's so heartbreaking and then staggering to see you know as he came alive and your pages and I know he's still alive and recovering from Cova here but that he has not only survived but seems to be. Driving in many ways maybe as he would maybe say thriving more than people out here. WHO ARE NOT ON death row? Yeah. It's miraculous. An inspiring as Pama says, if we could save Jarvis can like you say survive and thrive on death row living in the worst imaginable circumstances then. We can. The really profound idea because you know we. I think a lot of us. At least during periods of time, you know we get so depressed. So anxious we get so freaked out about the little trivial things but also big things. You know the loss of somebody we love the many many experiences that we. Don't feel like we can. Survive it but. You know I think the thing that? We learn is that we can, and sometimes it's hard and in fact, it's always hard and takes. Commitment. And it takes practice and it takes kind of one of the messages here is that you don't give up and and then there's this amazing moment. When Jarvis first meets this. Extraordinary old Tibetan Lama who comes to visit him. In the sky. This rinpoche says he's giving him all this. You know this Buddhist talking. Hobbies platitudes at least like sound to Jarvis like platitudes and telling you know sort of sin paradoxes these Cohen's whatever and the teacher at one point looks at him and says, she does she he could tell Jarvis overwhelmed and perplexed, and he doesn't get the teacher said you know it's okay. If you don't understand understanding comes over time if you contemplate these ideas if you live these ideas, your mind will follow and it triggered something in. Jarvis that he can. Connect with until late that night when he was. Saying to himself. You know that was too overwhelming. I can't do this. It's too hard. I don't understand, and then he remembered the teachers words practice in your mind will follow and he had this amazing flashback and it was to when was a child he was in and out of the foster care system and in and out of the juvenile justice system and it was horrific beaten he was. Tortured foster mother. You know, put his hand in garbage disposal and turn it on and didn't quite. You know pushed she pushed his hand in there and didn't. Quite. Put Him into the blades but she threatened him instead of sh if he ever told about the mistreatment in that foster system foster home, that's what she would do him. I mean one thing after the other after the other. So he was in the middle of a salad. He was going through this agony about I guess this isn't for me. I don't get it in all of a sudden. He thought about what the teacher had said that you know it's okay. If you don't get it comes over time but practice and your mind will follow in that triggered a memory of when he was a child and when he would. Escape. Sometimes from juvenile justice were kids were tortured and basically and treated as if they were. A adult convicts who committed the worst crimes when basically what they had done is run away from home where maybe petty theft or things like that at that point. And he would run away and you would come home and he would. Sneak into his aunt's house. And he would live there and she accepted she took him in when nobody else in his family would and he said that the house was filled with joy kind of joy that he never knew and his aunt was always listening to these old records and one of the records peci listen to over and over and over again was fucking Alex record that was called for your mind and your ass will follow. And Jarvis made that connection and said, Oh that's that's what this teacher this. Tabet Lama is saying you know. For your mind and your ass will follow, and then he just started laughing to himself because he realized. His teacher was George Clinton Funke Delic. He'd met with. Tibetan revered Lama, but he? Got It through the song, and that's really the way he carried on, which is to say, I don't understand this. I am not a Buddhist I did not interested in being a Buddhist but I'm in pain and sell I'll do what they tell me with this promise that it will lead somewhere and of course, it did his mind did follow possessed follow any became you know he changed over time. Yes I. Think it was the same Lov no, he's had many teachers who said to him. You may not understand now but your Karma is to be here. I said, you are fortunate as hard as it is to accept. This is where you have to be for the time being you may not see it but you are fortunate to be in a place where you can know humanities suffering and learn to see the perfection of all beings and yourself learn to see their perfection. That the you know one of the most beautiful parts of the book wasn't while it is sort of in his own. His own path towards peace. But also the incredible good that his done from death row right burr corrections, officers for fellow inmates and for pen pals around the world people rice to him now all the time and he sort of offers counsel. Yeah. You know it's extraordinary I mean he was a he called himself. It's not my word. It is where the thug. When he was when he entered prison after his when he was seventeen years old, you committed a crime spree in lots of armed robberies of. Target store, gas stations, fast food restaurants, and it was all about he said survival and that's what. His mindset was in it's the mindset of anybody in that situation, and of course, it makes sense because you are always threatened in in you can be killed. So it was about survival which means thinking about hisself no one else and the transformation to the point where he understood. The Buddhist lessons in a very simplistic way from at least the way I understand it not a Buddhist but you know I. Learned. Jarvis. Learned in in a way that you know the basic. Principle of Buddhism is the recognition of suffering that we all suffer life is suffering. Don't WanNA. Hear it. We all WANNA Be Happy. We don't want to suffer, but that's reality that's what life is and then when you. Recognize suffering and connect other suffering to your own. There comes without a moral obligation as a human being part of humanity to try to alleviate other suffering and Jarvis didn't know how he could do that. He didn't believe he could do that partly because of who he was because of his past, but also because he was living in a cage. And over time he realized that there were so many opportunities in fact, where would be more opportunities in the world to work to Alleviate suffering than on death row surrounded by you know instant on death row in San Quentin their seven hundred. Men in the whole prison, there are about thirty five. Hundred people. So he didn't look have to look far to find people who needed help. And who he could help, and that's why I that he alternately he was he was appalled at first when that teacher said, you know you're fortunate to be where you are. Not, I'm not fortunate to be where I am I'm living in Hell but he ended up understanding that he was fortunate in that way that he was fortunate to be in a circumstance where. His Practice. became very real very quickly because he was surrounded by people who were suffering and he recognized not only were the inmate suffering. Did they have all of them without exception? They all suffered throughout their lives. But the guards to you know, these guards who were sort of considered is considered his enemy cops guards. And the enemy of most prisoners. Recognized their suffering to he said, they're in prison too. And so that transformation from. Living to survive to compassion. To action extraordinary and again, it's a model for us if Jarvis can do it in prison. Can look outside himself. Look outside zone experience look outside his own pain in recognizing recognize others. And then he found out, what we find out is then when we do get outside of our own pain and we do start to recognize others and we do it, we can help other people. Ironically, we suffer less because we're looking at other suffering and it seems like we'd be overwhelmed. It seems like we would be drowning in suffering of other people. But. We get outside of our heads. We focus on other people realize we're all connected we're all. Joined by that suffering. And if we try at least to help others, you know we connect with them we connect with all humanity. And suddenly were not in this much pain anymore. Yeah will you tell the parable of Keesa go Tommy Yeah Jarvis heard all these stories. When he first started to talk with his various Buddhist friends that since criminal investigator was the first one Others then eventually, he met this this Llama, this pushing. From, Tibet and a lot of the stories were so esoteric. He just didn't get. He didn't care. He actually was annoyed by a lot of it. Didn't feel relevant to his life, but he was suffering and he was. Just stuck at one point. One of the teachers told him this story from Buddhism that was the first one that actually hit him in the gut. It changed him and it was the story of this woman, Keith Tommy who lived at the time of the first Buddha or Buddha. And Lost Her son died and was overcome with grief and so she went in search of the booty. To play with him to plead with him to restore her son to life. And you know she went on this journey and eventually she found the Boudin she. told him she was going through when she asked if he could bring her son to life and he said to her that he could that he would restore her son to life but in order to do this he needed. Mustard seeds and the mustard seats had to come from the home. That had not suffered. And had not experienced death and only then with these seniors be. Pure enough for him to use to revive her son. So she went out on a journey to find these mustard seeds to bring back to to the Buddha and she went from one home to the next and the next and many places she explained that she was in need of mustard seeds and people offered them. To her. But then when she asked about their experience in the home, if they are experienced with suffering if their experience with death. She was not able to find any of the homes that had avoided that and. She went on and on and on and on and finally when she was. She reached the thousandth home. She knocked on the door. Woman came out and. Jessica Tommy asked for the mustard seeds and The woman was happy to share the seeds that she had in her home, and then when case ago Tommy asked if she experienced in her own death and suffering. You know the woman turned very solemn and said. You, know she'd experienced suffering throughout your life she lost. And that was the moment that. Tommy had this awakening and she said that was the lesson that the Buddha wanted to learn. And she let go of this long. and. Grief For her son. Not, that she not the full grave, but in one way sort of she had a recognition. That everyone she'd met suffered, which meant everyone in the world suffered. But everyone she met had suffered losses which been everyone in the world suffered loss like her. She was not immune and that her son had joined this vast pool of people out there. Who had lived and died and she joined the pool of people out there who were indeed suffering and she was she was okay then. And she had transformed she became. Enlightened at that moment, and she developed a devoted the rest of her life to Buddha to Buddhism into becoming a teacher herself when Jarvis heard this story. He got it. He said that he didn't have to go knock on the thousand doors because he lived. Among thousand or cell doors, and if you knocked on any one of those doors, you're going to find stories of suffering death. And some way he too was freed and he to connected and he too was no longer trapped by his own wariness, but he opened up to the suffering of the people around him and ultimately to olive humanity. And that was really the big moment the big revelation that allowed him to change. Yeah. How did writing this book change? Do I know you went I think two hundred times to death row. But how did that change you? How has your relationship with masters changed you. Well when I went in, you know I'm a journalist I've always been a journalist and I thought I was going to go in as I have with other stories about Arden entertainment and politics. Writers, movies, and everything. I came in from the outside and reportedly stories, and so that was my intention when I began this but over. Time I. First of all, my relationship develop tonight began to care about him very deeply. He's extraordinary person I'd heard that he was extraordinary person before i. met him. But I was cynical. I didn't get it but he is an extraordinary person and for somebody who's lived the life he lives every anybody who has a right to be bitter and angry. To press, you know he's not you know I would. visit him and leave feeling uplift isn't it was stunning to them shocking to be leaving the most desolate desperate dark place on earth and leaving. Feeling inspired. So, over time I started to see the world a little bit differently through his eyes and to do it in a few different ways one of them was. That idea that you asked about this idea that. You. Know fear is a thought in our thoughts can't tell us. That's what our anxiety is. That's what our. that's what really took us out of our lives. So often and I suffered a lot of my life suffered with depression suffered with anxiety. And it allowed me to pull myself out of those states. Partly through better tasting some wet but also just because of the experience that the one thing that I'll always remember that again it was it's not poppy I was not intending to do this as some sort of transformative experience for myself but I absorbed these lessons and Jarvis a story. About one time in his early days in prison. When he had A. I can't even remember what it was. I think he had a really bad ear infection or something like that that they couldn't treat in the prison said they were bringing him to a nearby hospital. And so they put him in a prison van two guards. Three guards actually accompanied him. And they got stuck in traffic on the way to the hospital and the guards were complaining they were pissed off. You know we're in traffic was going along at a snail's pace. We've all experienced. And Jarvis was looking out the window and just was in heaven and he didn't want the traffic jam to end because he was looking at people on the streets at the time I guess they I wait I had earpieces with cell phones at first he was trying to figure out why people were standing on street corners talking to themselves everybody's relevant than eventually you know he figured it out that they were on the phone and he looked at the people in the other cars and he looked at their faces and brought. Tears to his eyes because he'd been selling isolated in all of a sudden. He saw these people who were living these lives and he could see their suffering. He could see their joy he imagined what their lives were like. Did, they have children, parents you know. Relationships joy you know work. Learning everything and it was very emotional for him and he was thrilled to stay in that traffic jam as long as he could. I. Was at one point. Get into going to the prison. Late for my appointment because I was behind the there has been an accident on the road from my house to the prison I was stuck in traffic and I was getting really anxious. I was getting you know. In a very familiar frenzy. That I could control I just had to wait until traffic started moving again whether this experience to the prison and going to the airport. And all of a sudden I. Remember Jarvis's experience and stopped like took a breath and I started to look around and I started to look in the other cars. And I looked at the faces of people in realized that I've been in that same situation. Countless. Times. Throughout my life never ever looked in the face of somebody else who was around me even in line at the post office or line in the grocery, store And suddenly I had the same experience that he had and I looked at these people and I realized my mind just sort of spun out these stories about. These people you know were they. Experiencing regrets where they experiencing joy? Were they going home to someone that they cared about? Were they going home to loneliness and? Heart melted Ni-. became very emotional and it was an amazing experience and yes, I think we can all learn from we get so busy we get. So start living in our own little. Lives are business our. Our own anxiety are on frustrations our own tragedies that when we step back from that we realized. You know maybe it's not so tragic and maybe you know the more we indulge in them, the more we are going to suffer but that we don't have to indulge them and so there have been many many many experiences like that have snuck up on me and I realized that the experience was Jarvis has changed me. I still suffering depression still banks, I, D I still get. Anxious when I end up in a Traffic Jam missing flight, but then I have some of the. I've learned and have the skills that allow me to take a step out of that moment and to. Remember you know where we are who we are, what are lightly, how that we are living this sort of we have this extraordinary moment. When we're alive and when we stand back and look at this from the perspective of of space. We realized that we are you know this tiny insignificant. Creature. Tear for a very short time if we look at the big span and so it is this amazing blessing that we have. You know we are here for this moment and you know. We. Don't look at it like that. Think about it like about, and we can experience a completely different reality. You know we can experience joy. We can even experience are suffering in the fears and the guilt and shame whatever it is from a new perspective and realizing and put it in perspective. Anyway. That was a log answer to your question. Yeah. It really impact on me and he continues to though he had covert as you mentioned the prisoners locked down I can't go visit him now occasionally you know he'll get access to a telephone so we'll talk on the phone and I really Miss Him I. Really Miss Those Times with him and you know I, feel like. You know he went from being the subject of a book. To being someone I consider a friend and even a part of our family I visited with my wife my my my kids went to visit him and communicates with him now. Yeah. I know you mentioned briefly that you think that there's an time a chance that he'll be freed but clearly, and I think. With black lives matter and everything that's happened during Cova were all sort of being hit over the head again about the new Jim Crow and the reality of what's happening in our prisons and you know in the context of neck. Your Siahaan right who struggled with addiction and people very close to me have struggled with addiction and one of the conversations that I've had with them is if I weren't white. For what I did, I would be in jail and then who knows what happens like you look at the Esscalation of what's happened to masters right like he's in jail and now he's on death row right for this. This idea that he was involved in the murder of a corrections officer. So how do you grapple with that? Like how are we going I? Mean it's a big question but like how do we fix this is like one of the sort of primary. Wrongs of what's happened how do you think about that as someone who's? His life has been could have gone so differently but. Didn't. Yeah. I. Mean I. You know it has struck me time and time again I had experience when I was a kid when I was in college, you know I was dealing drugs for a while and not just you know a bag of pot joints here and there but know pounds of Akila's pod and mushrooms and cocaine. If I had been in a different circumstance if I had been this black kid in A. Ghetto you know. Chances are I would have been arrested thrown in a police car, and I would have spent most of my life in jail is not all my life in prison and on the other hand Jarvis would not be unethical if he were white and. How can I say that for sure I mean of course, I can't say one hundred percent for sure. But so much of his life was defined by his race become defined by racism. You know we know that one out of every three black males in our country will end up in jail or prison at some point in their lives. Know Jarvis was targeted because he was black he. was put in front of judges who were white juries who were white and We know also that juries. Who are white are much more likely to convict black men and judges are much more likely to give them harsher sentences. Just proportionately. On death row. People of color over and over again. But it even goes back to something more fundamental than that. It goes back to Jarvis experiences through out his whole life where he was never given opportunities that I that I was given. You know he didn't have. Structured his life, his parents were in and out of prison themselves suffered themselves addicted themselves. No. Opportunities like my son had to go into treatment to get Rehab to get therapy. and. So the Addictions and violence escalated. He didn't really have a chance. Yes. Survival for him when he was a kid was being connected. One of the neighborhood gangs. To the about violence and it was all about you know gangs fighting gangs, neighborhood gangs, you know. Guns. Robbing, stores you know that was his life then. and. He said he was on the path it was a youth on its way to prison path. You know with what is happening now in our country, it's not new. At All In a George Floyd murder. Shifted things to the point that maybe. It's more. In the forefront people are more understanding more people always are understanding more. Sort of shook us up in a way that other horrific killings over the years have not or they did but maybe the outraged didn't last. This time that outrageous lasting will continue to last I don't know what choice do. We cannot. You know put this aside for the next crisis I mean it. I just think a lot about how You know we went from the corona virus. All I was reading about for months. This year was the coronavirus and then there was george fly in everything. We kind of forgot about the current boy I mean, we didn't we were still isolated, but it was not on the forefront, and then frankly I live in northern California where the fires are threatening our neighborhood our home. And that's been the preoccupation recently, and again I haven't forgotten about a virus and I certainly haven't forgotten about the black lives matter movement. But. It's so easy to push things aside for the next crisis and. If we do nothing's going to change. We have an obligation. There's a lot of conversation about it's not just enough to understand racism, but it is to become. anti-racist, which means to be. Involved in active. Protests and change to create change and I guess in some ways I feel like you know this book hopefully will. Be a little bit of a part of that because it does talk about the racism that Jarvis experienced and I I've gotten very because my son's addiction I've gotten very involved in. The World of addiction and mental health around the country recognize the fact that the treatment system is bad it is for everyone. Is Worse for people of Color it is worse. All healthcare is worse mental health care is worse you know in the very small way that I can I've been. Trying to you know be involved in that and have a small impact and I think it behooves assaultive about that and. You know that's the way that will change. The all like it's GonNa come from grassroots because it is not going to come from the top down. Yeah. What does masters need? You know I know you haven't. Been in touch with him as much. But like in the context of what sort of average people like me can do. What does he need as an? What do people in his predicament need? Is that you know donations to the equal justice initiative as at letters as a letters to new some what are what can we do and or does he need anything? Does he still I'm sure his inundated with mail while he's not and I guess what I would say first of all yes. Everything you said. Involvement in. These organizations that are tirelessly working to support prisoners support their. Cases. Or appeals but also prisoners rights. You know we can forget that these are human beings. You Know Marin county where I live one of the most wealthy. Privileged counties in the world we live with this prison. You know right on the San Francisco Bay right outside right part of us. You know I drive by we we all drive by it all the time, and it's so easy to forget that there are thirty five hundred incarcerated men there to mend. It's a male prison a million point seven I think you know people incarcerated in the United States it's really easy to forget and we can't forget and so yeah supporting organizations that are doing. Good work to try to support prisoners and tried to get the innocent out of prison. One of the things that Jarvis talks about is his great fear is being forgotten disappearing because I mean, think about it if you're seven hundred and fifty people on death row in San Quentin. Scott Peterson, he actually just was moved from death row very recently in fact, only last week because of some fly in his case that was identified but seven hundred people on death row in Jarvis does have a support system and he has friends and he's got. Good. Lawyers now. He's actually been supported by Oprah Winfrey who learned about his case from show during WHO's helped him get new lawyers so he feels very fortunate and. One of the most fortunate people on death row. And imprisoned because he does have this larger world, but he still is afraid of disappearing because it's so easy to disappear when you're behind those walls when you're living in a cage. So letters are connection to the outside world. and He loves hearing for people and even more he encourages people to write to other inmates. He said a letter can change the life of a prisoner if you go to the California Department of Corrections website. There are listings directories of all the inmates in California including their sentences people are in for life people are on death row. You write them. The addresses are on the website as well. Jarvis's address is on his website which I think is free Jarvis Dot Org if that's not it. Google, Jarvis Masters you can find it and I think that's it. But there are also other ways to help him in other inmates as well and it's time you know and it is. It is one of the. Horrors that we perpetrate right now, the fact that so many people are importance slowly people who forgot who are forgotten and so many people who are imprisoned because they are poor. Or they're black or Brown I. Mean they've never had opportunities and never had representation. It's one of the great injustices. Yeah. Well, it sort of says it all that Scott Peterson and for those who don't remember he's the one who murdered his wife and Lacey and their unborn son the fact that his. Death sentence was overturned and yet Jarvis languishes is kind of a perfect. Example of what's happening. You're absolutely right. It's exactly the example if he's white, his family has money. To hire. Good lawyers he's had good representation from the beginning and. Jarvis hasn't I mean he does now as I said so again Jarvis says he's very lucky for someone on death row to say he's lucky says a lot about him and a lot about the circumstances of other people on death row. Thank you so much your time I love the book. Thank you for writing it. I hope it makes massive waves I'm sure it will. Thanks for listening to my conversation with David Sheff, for more from David, please check out his stunning book the Buddhist on death row and as he mentions, let's think about the ways that we can connect with those who are trapped inside of our deeply unfair and unjust criminal justice system. We can all find perhaps prisoner to become a pen pal with. That's it. For today's episode. If you have a chance, please rate and review hit subscribe to keep up with new episodes, pass it along to a friend. Thanks again for joining a hope you'll come back for more in the meantime you can check out goop dot com slash the podcast.

Tommy Yeah Jarvis murder Jarvis Jay Masters San Quentin California investigator David Sheff Jarvis Story New York Times depression Jarvis Dot Org Cova Scott Peterson Taylor Paltrow California Department of Corre Elise Loenen Appel San Francisco Bay Scott Peterson
WAYNE KRAMER Launches Brad Brooks

Launch Left

38:14 min | 2 months ago

WAYNE KRAMER Launches Brad Brooks

"Lusa hello welcome to large left an intentional space for art and activism a podcast label a launch pad for left-of-centre artists. Today's guest is so fricken exciting. There's so much to say about this person. Legend of left of center and of activism and punk rock and everything exciting about art and music. Before i introduce him please raiding subscribe. Follow us on also shows and i'm going to try not to be too nervous. Welcome to the show. Wayne kramer i will just rattled off some other things. Obviously you're at the co founder of mc five. Which is probably the best known for because you were a teenager at the time with your friend. Fritz on smith you guys formed that band composer. you're the nonprofit founder. you are father. I mean so many things. And you're from detroit. Which is like the coolest. I'm old now. So they accumulate. I guess that's true. There's one thing that i'll say to all these different wayne kramer. Identity things is your Your activism pointing out injustice and making an effort to sound out. Whatever you can you're jetty activism my delusions having been such that they include things that i do The view of the world. That i think i share with a lot of people that one person can make a difference. A handful of people can make a huge difference. So if you can get a dozen people together who share your vision and are all willing to commit full measures. You can make things happen. I totally agree with that. It's always like a small group of people that completely commit to something and that's an interesting thing you bring up because it's my personal opinion that the power of love like our truest center like we all i think ultimately are good and some you know yes we can be perverted and yes. There are some inherently evil people. But i always wonder if that's partly due to nature or nurture right you know what it may be A matter of an evolutionary matter that hunter gatherer discovered that if he If i go out today and i get berries and you don't get berries and i share my berries with you tomorrow. I might not get any berries and you get berries since i shared my varies with you. You might share your varies with me and the tribe survives and were allowed to reproduce multiply. So i think you know. Altruistic reciprocity is a is part of explains the success of our species. You know that the you know. There's a hob z and vision of of competition and and Violin send you know i'm gonna get mine kind of gangsterism neil ism. It kind has two forms. I think one is You know in al-qaeda us and and you know terrorist violence whether it's in the middle east or in michigan That's kind of a hard form of of neil ism meaninglessness and there's a soft form which is like i'm gonna take care. I'm going to get mine. I'm gonna take care of me and my family. I'm going to have a big house. I'm gonna have money. You know i'm going to study kabbalah or i'm going to be an american buddhist but i'm going to be okay. You know and and disconnecting from the world and other people the only way to militantly opposed that meaninglessness in my humble opinion is through Direct ethical action in other words actions and thoughts that move in the direction of human happiness and away from the direction of human suffering. And i think altruistic reciprocity is born out of that that our tendency to share our intenders our tendency to form communities. You know sometimes even though they're bounded in that causes a problem but still our our our our willingness to come together with other people Serves us well. And and i think you know by taking direct action and that certainly includes a political action. At least i can. Militantly opposed my own apathy because i've seen enemy enemy is not the republicans or the capitalists. The enemy is me is my all my own laziness and my own fear in my own apathy and and my own disconnection from the world. Because it's a solution is always in connection with other people me personally. I don't have much use for organized. Religion and i have absolutely no commitment to the supernatural. I just you know. I think i understand it. I've studied these things over the course of my life and i'm concerned with what happens in the world with people as i experience in a like. I'm not so much concerned with the meaning of life as i am the experience of lights. Yep no i. Yeah absolutely. I think you know like i said somebody wants it to me. Like there's so many paths just pick one like whatever that means to you right like and do it. I don't just be like. Oh i kinda like the whatever that is organized religion for some people works but for some people it's philosophy but at least like it's more about like we're talking about here is. The center is the center. Just made me think of that. I think it's chinua achebe and things fall apart. May what look at all the things we have in common. You know people all around the world fundamentally want the same bangs you know. They wanna be safe in their community. They wanna feel productive. They want to have a family that they can love and that loves them in return. They wanna feel like there are accomplishing something that they're part of something bigger than just them. It's a universal human truth when you know. These astronauts are gone space and look down and they don't see any political borders because this is all a construction of of men you know. This is all Ben attempts to conquer nature talker each other. Well i will say okay. So i'm just gonna share that. There are few people that have spoken about you and that we should talk for years now. One of them shepherd ferry. You know your influence on the better part of the music scene that i associated with is gigantic fairly common knowledge in the music world that i launched this band in detroit in the sixties called the mc five we were a you know militantly. Political revolutionary hard rock band With the with some some Ambitions that went beyond rock music and We did not survive a success or failure. We never became a big hit band and we broke up after about four years. I think the band existed for about eight. And and four after we started making albums and touring the world and You know this is not unusual. This is what happens to most bands. You see him come. And you see 'em go mostly see them go. Thousands and thousands of bands since the sixties that of all just disappeared into the ether but the mc five took Took a stance That was decidedly self-determination self. Efficacy and and the power of young people to make positive change on and i think what set the mc five apart from our contemporaries was that we dealt with People are fans concerns directly head on. We didn't put it off on the side. So oh yeah. I'm anti war too but mostly like amanda acid or mostly. I'm into the blues. It was look when i stood on the stage and put my hand up in a fist and kids out audience to the same thing. We made a connection there None of which helped the mc five survive. And and i think there may have even been forces in play larger than i knew at the time And the band broke up and this happens to young people a lot. You know we sell this great. Lie that if you're successful in whatever it is movies books tv music theater dance that somehow you will be delivered to a good life and there is a good life available but that isn't how you get it and and i bought it and i wanted to be a success and i thought success was going to deliver me to this people magazine idea of know house with a pool and beautiful children and a beautiful wife and and you know beautiful events and beautiful activities and none of that showed up for me as a dozen for most people. And what you're left with you. You bought the lie and you did everything you had to do to achieve that success and then you found out not only were you not better. You were worse and discovered the wonderful painkilling properties of heroin vodka. This led me on a downward spiral where i discovered that being a criminal being an outsider. Being an outlaw had its own attractions you could be a star in that world. You had to hurt people you had to steal from people. You had to play people. And so i tried. All that and that culminated with me getting a four year. Federal prison term. I went off to federal prison. Served my time made the most of it Had some amazing experiences in prison. Met a wonderful artist who became my mentor and musical father. His name was red rodney. He was a jazz trumpeter. Who had replaced. Miles davis charlie parker quinn tapped. He was in his fifties. Than i was in my twenties so through red i got to learn a lot about nick and a lot about what was ahead for me. If i continued on the path i was on after it was released from prison. Prison became a big issue for me. And i started clocking. What was and every year. I notice as the war on drugs. Ratcheted up more and more people just like me or going to prison for longer sentences now under worse conditions than i served under and you know i it was tens of thousands than it was hundreds of thousands then it was millions and thirty years later two point. Three million of our fellow citizens are brothers and sisters. Our mothers and fathers sisters brothers. Children are serving time in america's prisons and long sentences. My same offence carries a life sentence today. So as i watched what was going on i started to get angrier and angrier. This was clearly a terrible injustice crime against humanity and finally our knew that i had to take action because otherwise the stuff will eat me up. I have to get out of my head. And i have to go out into the world and do something. What can i do well. I'm a musician you know. I always liked it when outside ban came into the prison. I served in and put on a concert so okay. I could do that. So i started getting some of my rockstar friends together to go into a prison and one of the guys i brought in myth with me was billy bragg. The wonderful troubadour and activists from england and on his guitar was written. Stay free jail guitar doors. And i said what's up with that jail guitar doors billy. And he said oh. It's an old clash b side. Have you ever heard it. And i heard it bill. The song's about me what you mean. What are the lyrics. Right let me tell you about whine and deals of cocaine blood a fucking l. It is about you so he started to explain to me. He had launched an initiative independent initiative england because he wanted to celebrate joe strimmers. Life's work the clash. Were huge to billy bragg and they inspired him to combine his love of music and activism together and a guy that worked in a british prison had written him to ask him if he could help them get some guitars to use as tools for rehabilitation with prison. Inmates and billy said well okay. Here's my initiative. I'll call it after that clash. B side jail guitar doors. And i'll go around and stick up my rich artists friends for money and we'll buy guitars for by the end of our event that day it was at sing. Sing prison in new york He had convinced me that. I needed to take this on in this country and he said good because i was just about task you with it. You're the only one that can do it because you've been inside. You know how the system works. And he's right so on that day or eleven years ago Me my wife. Margaret and billy bragg founded jail guitar doors today our instruments and programmes are operating in over one hundred and sixty american prisons and jails where across country where at rikers island in new york. We're still at saying saying we're in the michigan department of corrections were in the cook county. Jail in chicago were in nevada were in colorado were in texas and were on ten california prison yards and we just launched a new initiative to work with young people. Were working up stream. If i can teach a kid that with two turntables and a microphone he might find a way out of spending his adult life in the california department of corrections. Then we're all ahead of the game. Wow that's so awesome. I think you also just accidentally set a beck lyric ten years ago. We really were pushing water uphill but in the intervening decade. The the the states have realized that can't afford to build prisons and lock people up at the pace. They were going. The feds are slightly behind the curve. Because they're not suffering from the economics of it. There's also the realization that the get tough on crime policies that built up in the with the death of lamb by and the coming of crack babies. And and you know this whole kind of get tough on crime. We're going to lock people. Up for selling these poisons and What what they what. We've learned in thirty years as if you take people out of their communities out of their families put them an environment where they're inculcated in violence racism defeat bitterness resentment They get worse not better. And then we plop them back out on the street with no programs to prepare them for returning to society and it ends up. We're not more safe. Were less safe are ninety. Five percent of the people in america's prisons are gonna come home some day and they're gonna stand next to you in line at the supermarket and they're going to sit next to me at the movie theater and their kids are going to go to school with my kid and you know who do i want in my community. People that have been brutalized for decades. And the only way they know how to relate to other human beings is violently or someone that's been given a shot at redemption a shot and understanding how they got into trouble. A shot at here are some programs. Here are some plans to help you. Avoid coming back to these prisons again. I mean one of the things in our songwriting workshops that prisoners learn is how to collaborate with other people in prison. Certainly in california's prison gang culture is paramount and the guards in the system. Us gang separations to manipulate prisoners. And pit them against each other. To control them are workshops. We do not recognize gang affiliations neighborhoods races classes. Sexual orientation in our workshops. Were all artists. And we're all regular human beings and we can talk about anyone and anything but we have to treat each other with dignity and respect and the man love this. The women love it. The children love it because they get to be people human beings which is what they are. What are you musical influences. And how did they affect your young life. They were the influences that were available to me as a kid. You know growing up in detroit. In the fifties and sixties elvis was hugely successful. Rock and roll was really exploding. The electric guitar had had Reached a point technologically where they were playable and they sounded good and they were reasonably priced and average in a working class. Family could afford a electric guitar for hit their kid and a little amped. So you know as a guitar player. Chuck berry was probably by original inspiration. The instrumental groups of the early sixties What they call Garage rock now. You know these. These records came and went. You never heard from him again. Artists like johnny and the hurricanes of the ventures or the frogman or the royal teens. Allow these were were just production names of of professional musicians that recorded something and it sounded good and got on the radio. I was hugely influenced by the coming of the first british wave of the beatles and the rolling stones and and the who and the yardbirds jeff beck was a huge influence. Still is still my idol. I'm curious about the people you played with an band. Bandwith like fred. Sonic smith and johnny thunders. Before that like we're they an influence on you musically and did you feel a kind of sense of something. I like to call healthy competition like to wear. It really drove you to become better for sure. It within the mc five itself rob tyner was just a genius in every definition of the term. He had a vision for the band music. And he was just stunningly creative draw. He was a brilliant artist. He was a great lyricist fantastic singer. He designed his own clothes. He just reinvented himself. Over and over and over again he was a true artist. Fred smith and i grew up playing guitars together when i first started to try to get a band together and asked around at school. Did any kids know of any other kids. That played instruments. Might wanna be in a band with me and someone said well. I know a kid named fred smith. He plays bongos. And i thought well abandoned the bongo player. Madam you know we got along. And and i discovered that his his father was from the south and they had a guitar at home so i spent one summer going over to his house and teaching him every day. I i play the melody and show him the cords and and And then we started. We got electric guitars. And then we started. We were in rival bands for a while and then joined up and he took great pride in being a rhythm guitarist. That was his thing and i was the lead guitars and then at a certain point in the mc five one day i went down to the rehearsal room and fred was playing these incredible single note solos and i was like god. Damn man what happened to you. you know. And he was just wailing in man he must have been would shedding wasn't looking or was listening because he could play all the solos and then i started to realize he had really developed his own thing as a rhythm player and then are are. We played guitars together for so long. That are styles actually moved into one style and we could play simultaneously. We could both play complementary rhythm parts or we could solo simultaneously. We could hear the other guy and we could change the direction and the other guy would follow or the other guy would change the direction. And i would follow and we're really developed a technique that i'm not sure i've seen done better yet. I did hear one night. I went to see the the dirty projectors and they had a two guitar thing going that was pretty cool But yeah inside the band that there was a healthy competition and then there was a even stronger competition outside the ban because we wanted to make sure that everyone understood. We were the bosses. We were the leaders and in detroit we re certainly were and you know we carry that attitude with us because we kind of had a chip on our shoulder being from detroit cool could happen in detroit. They make cars in detroit but we knew our influences were more stretched out than anything. We were hearing in london or in san francisco because by this time johnson clara turned me onto the free jazz movement. And that's where. I was able to go from my best chuck berry solo to my best jeff beck solo to saying. Where do i go next. And i heard it in the music of albert eyler and john coltrane and son. Ron ceasar taylor archie. Shepp that music is what inspired me and the mc five to push all music into a more pure sonic dimension speaking of music and it sounds like what you're talking about there was just reaching guy you to place within. You reached even further than what was obvious influences into a freedom as a musician and as an artist that is psych spoke cool and makes it always gets me excited but i think speaking of music and musicians we have your launched artists in the waiting room. Brad brooks and we're gonna talk about his new song. God save the city thank you. Are you ready to welcome into our conversation. Yes indeed come on books. Welcome to launch left. Brad brooks thank you for having me first of all. I'm super honored that wayne pick me and kind of blown away. We know you have a new song. God save the city or the record comes up. Friday and the song was one that I live in oakland and But i live in san francisco for a while and that just seeing Gentrification in the wealth of san francisco has just changed the whole bay area and not always for the better and I've just seen so much more homelessness in and even with kobe that's happened. It's even just grown even more and So this is a song that I just felt like needed to be said. And it is kind of a take off on god save the queen by the sex pistols but I don't know whether it's venues that have been closed at. I mean it's so strange since cobaine has happened. It's just the song is even taking even more of a meaning because it's just more of what's in. It has been happening from musical venues to being close to the homeless situation is really crazy out here. And and And i'm always like will weren't they go you know. There's there's a part of the video. That and i found myself. And there's a part in the video where i drove by a homeless camp and filmed it in two days later just was driving by again and they were cleaning out like just that and i was like well. Where did they go like. Where did these people. Where did they go and so on. So that was In the video part of it and Yeah it's just a it's just a crazy time and and i think this song Speak to that also to you. Know what happened with. George floyd and all that so i hope the song helps people out thank you thanks for. Sharing it with us assured And you wayne. Do you all have questions for each other town. You know each other. We met on the gag. We're we're going to do it had to do with. What was it jeff. A jeff buckley. Yeah we saw Mother's book a tiffany barlow without a graphic novel and but Jeff buckley's mom was part of it and she was there and and And we klay. Then i got to jump up and kick out the jams with wayne and and You then here's here's the best part. So brad says so. What are you working on. And i said not much man i just got diagnosed with cancer and i'm kind of fucked up about it. He said stop. Stop celebrate their wait. Listen you can get through this. It happened to me. And i was like And then he went on to describe everything he had just gone through that. I was just starting to go through and we were cancelled. Rose yes. I brought my representative whitby behind me. If you can see that. But i always keep my little my mass here journey. You know to wear it on halloween. Because what people don't realize is that you know we had to be kinda strapped to a table and these lays radiation to kill the the the lump in. It's a it's very fearful. And i'm just so glad that i was able to me. It just seemed like is just meant to be because I just You know. I hope that. I helped you out in and And you're such awesome person. It really started actually wayne said so. Tell me about your life you know and you don't sit next to someone like that very often when the they are so open and just want you know chat and talking so yeah we started talking about it and it turned out he was going through the same thing and and And hopefully. I was help him out. You look great. You look like your own austin and back to your fighting weight. I feel okay brad. Brad was a pillar of strength. Still is mum. You know this stuff gets to me sometimes and we've had You know he gives me a pull up often. You know that he's a real brother. I adore him. And so wootton in the chance to you know expose his work popped up on your show. I said yes. Let's let's be brooks action. You'll so so happy to be honest with you. This whole thing's about weirdo artists. So we're all at home. Well a word from our sponsor if anyone out there Wishes to join us in our work in america's prisons they can go to jail guitar doors dot org and learn everything. There is about who we are what we do where we doing how we do it and you can help that. Said it is my distinct pleasure to introduce. Brad brooks d brooks new single. God save the city crank it. Thanks for being here. Thank you thank you so much for having me giving you a good to see you way. I'll talk to you later. again sir wanna tell you. Launch left aims to create an intentional space that highlights and empowers artists for whom radical creativity is not a choice but a necessity launch left begins with music but its ultimate aim is to launch left of center artists in all creative fields.

wayne kramer detroit billy bragg Lusa amanda acid four year joe strimmers michigan department of correct california department of corre thirty years Fritz billy qaeda Brad brooks charlie parker england neil Sonic smith Miles davis america
The Mighty Oaks Show  Episode 033

The Mighty Oaks Podcast

1:00:04 hr | 1 year ago

The Mighty Oaks Show Episode 033

"You're listening to the mighty oaks show broadcasting worldwide from our studio studio in southern California. Equipping you with the tools and resources to find victory in life's battles and now your host chat show and Jeremy Stole Necker. Hello to the mighty oak show. My name is Jeremy Stalker and the Executive Director of the Mighty Foundation and thankful to have you with us. We've I've had some great conversations over the last several weeks and looking forward to a great conversation today with our friend John Lowery. And if you've been following our show You've probably heard John before John's uh-huh our very first guest on the show and that was back in the olden days now six months ago so beginning of the year it was also. And that's it's a great great start but John I've been friends for a while now few years and Really Ministry friends working together and It's been great just to see what God has done. I think in both of our lives lives both of our organizations and the things that allows us to do and John Back on and talk about some things that are important but before we get into that if you have not yet subscribed to the Youtube Youtube Channel. Please do that if you're listening somewhere else. Maybe you're listening on Mojo as awesome listening to a podcast. That's awesome as well. If you're listening in either of those places go to you. Check out our channel tons of content. There we put our show there of course but just tons of content. I think just about every day. We're putting a new video of some kind up up and and all that is intended to help you All that is provided by supporters. Like yourself who allow us to do this and we love to share that with you so subscribe there if you haven't yet at the bell the notification belt that let you know in new content comes online and That would be awesome. John is the Director of Program Program Director Program drawers serving USA correct. And you spend a Lotta time focusing on prisons and rehabilitation and a lot of other things as a program director correct one talking about a couple of things one. Why do you work with prisoners? So that's one thing I would like to talk about the other one just talking about how a relationship relationship with God brings about rehabilitation and it's long lasting rehabilitation That would be another thing. I'd like to get your perspective on hope talking about hope what is open. Where's hope? Come From and how can we have hope even difficult circumstances in difficult situations but before we get to those things Maybe start by telling us about serving USA about your role at serving you say We have a lot of partners here at mighty oaks but our strongest partner deepest partner Kind of our go to battle with partner is serving USA. If we have someone were locked arms with that you guys and It's a long long standing relationship. Wayne Hughes has supported us us and Skyros ranch program. is Serving USA property and manages that and allows us to be there so talking about serving USA We know we do there. But what is the breadth of that. And what do you got involved in house serving. USA has what we call three legs to our stool. We have Veteran's programs we have imprisoned programs which is called the Urban Ministry Institute so it the acronym is T-. Um I to me. And then and We also work with women coming out of domestic violence and human trafficking so those are three legs to our stool. We do that through a small. A group of us at workforce serving USA. There are three of us that are program directors. We have Stephanie Borjas who oversees the Women's programmings for us and then in northern California I have a counterpart which is David Wesley and he oversees the in prison as well as working with any of veteran veteran contacts that are out there and domestic violence and human trafficking. Also 'cause we overlap in our services But he does Everything from Bakersfield Bakersfield North and he does Oregon Washington Idaho and Wyoming. And then it's a huge territory but we do it well so it's good and then Myself I do everything from Bakersfield South Texas Arizona I do part of Louisiana. I'm picking up Our bosses in Tennessee. Our Vice President is there so I assist with Tennessee. And he's looking. I believe at Ohio. Also so we're kind of spread out with what we we do but as a program director. It is my job to work with the organizations that we financially support to better their programming to better their management it skills their fundraising skills than their overall effectiveness of what they do for their programming. And we do that through a series of Different different supports that we provide you have individual support for myself or other program directors as well as our vice president and president who come and we do Support report to them we do trainings etc with them. But then we also have Simon Cross which is a company that we pay for to work with some of our organizations we choose six each year that we fund Simon Cross to come in and teach him with everything from putting together a good board to having. HR HR human resources or Any management type style issues that they would come to as well as grant writing seeking additional funding thing and then we have Stacey divine who is a she runs a fundraising organization and the six will pick six organizations stations at work with her and she boost up their fundraising Impact that they have to streamline what they do for fundraising you think about a man hours hours that go in for how much money is raised. And she'll come in and say well. Here's a better way to do it to get more more buck for your bang which is very good Even like training center down. Here we have a November four th golf tournament. That's coming up and it's a crazy way to raise money but it's more marketing than it is money for a whole year. They're working towards his golf tournament. So you've got a lot of man hours and stuff and you know through silent auction and through people live by foursomes and sponsors. They're going to walk away with probably thirty five forty thousand dollars. Where if you would have high impact Donors that are willing to write a larger check. You could do a private dinner with a group of six to take couples and have dinner where where it takes you. Maybe twenty hours of work Labor to do a delivery and pay for a dinner to have a higher return for your hours so we try and teach things was like that identify who can support the the various organizations etc.. And I get to do that as a program director and I love it. That's awesome. Yeah we would not be organization. We are without serving USA Start out in California. Maybe I'll ask you to talk about that transition a little bit but Certainly we're we're at a place I think we're you you know we have that support internally and we've been able to develop that but but for a number of years that was not the case. It was serving California serving USA coming alongside and really equipping us to do that. I think the interesting thing about nonprofit people don't understand is most nonprofit leaders are not business leaders. Here's correct there. People with a heart to help others and they want to do the ministry work they want to whatever their thing is. Whether it's you know women or children children or prisoners or whatever whatever the thing is they have a heart to help they know how to hell. They know how to do that but the rest of it is not something recouped do necessarily and yet it takes money and this is something that people have our time with a nonprofit. It takes money. That's the that's the the fuel in the engine right surfing moving and so you have folks who had the best of intentions. They're super passionate. They work really hard but they may not know how to do the other stuff. And that's where you guys come alongside what's really equip quit people that yeah. It's just like looking at church. They say I think what they say. is one percent of the church does ninety percent of the work. And it's the same out here. We we have organizations that they've been looking at a need they see a need and that need is not necessarily being filled. So here you have a group of people people will come together and say well. We're going to fulfill this need. We're going to deal with veterans at have post traumatic stress. Let's do that okay. And get this group of guys that come together and as veterans print. You're much give you have a much higher. For of education than most because the military is mandated to learn and now take that into the faith world to face world will say. Let's work with veterans. Have Post traumatic stress and how we can do that. We're going to pray for them. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA teach them the Bible we're going to have studies and they're in a realm they don't know so two things happen is okay. How are you going to fund this? Oh well God will provide you know. God says you know years ears your prayer and he tells you to go so you need to do things and one of the first things I tell people that are looking to start. Whether it's a transitional house a sober living or imprison programming or working with veterans or women and human trafficking. It doesn't matter I tell them. Sit Down and tell me what it's GonNa cost you. Let's tell me what it costs for one year because I'm GonNa tell you for the first six months you're going to be on a learning curve and it's in your money's just going out the window you must spend that money and then after that six months at first six months you'll have a small idea of what you're doing and you need to search first supporters because those that initially supported deported you. They did it out of kindness to the person who's doing it. Maybe not in this supported. You do not what you're doing and so I trump give me a one year cost. What's at budget? Looked like there. And then we need to add twenty percent. Because you don't even know what you're talking about and so I looked encouragement current thinking about you know because I'm encouraging thereby pushing that right elopement say this is how it is. Yes this is how it is and so that support has to be their financial support and to get long term financial support. They're not only has to be belief in what you can do but belief in your skills to do that you have to have the skills to execute what you hope to do. Okay so a lot of times you find out well. They do not handle money. They don't know how to do grant writing. They don't even have the proper etiquette to approach businesses to get them as sponsors. So how do we build that up. That's what we get to work with people and train them to do and support them while they do it. We do it side by side. But that's very hard in the nonprofit. The world is it's extremely hard. You can have the greatest idea with the greatest of faith. But even God wants you to be surrounded by people who give you wisdom mm-hmm so you have to be humble enough in yourself to seek that wisdom and to say I don't know how do I do this. And that's that's where successes come and we see all the time you know whether it's it's a church that starts or a organization it grows out of a church. We see them grow up and die and no one even wants to know why they died. And that's that's a huge problem to me. I want to know why I want. WanNa know where the damage occurred so that we can cut that off for those that we believe in those that we support. It's it's incredible. I'm sure you do as why do I talked to a lot of folks who want to start nonprofits. Who have a pretty good idea? I'm sure you have these conversations and someone will call and say I've got this idea. Yeah I WANNA get your advice. That's how the conversation starts. Yes and then they'll spend forty five minutes. Don't you what they're gonNA do and you'll say well I I love what you're about about. I think that's great. I think you can do that. But here's some thoughts that will go for about four and a half minutes and then they'll jump in and tell you again what they're going to move on. I think there is a misnomer snowman that if you work really really hard and you're really passionate and you really love. Jesus that this thing is going to work. I I think that has led more more people down that path of going. How did we get here? Yeah because it's what you said you you have to have those things but you also have to be humble enough to say I need help. Yes and there are some people that can help me but I have to listen to them. Yeah and the damage done for others. Who Want to do what you attempt to do in fail? There's damage Midge. Then they don't WanNa do it. It causes Being being involved in nonprofits put stress on family. Put stress on yourself yourself. Sure it puts stress on your finances. I I. I'm always amazed. It's kind of like when someone's looking for a pastor for a church are pastors leaving. We need a new pastor and they look nationwide because they're looking at all these resumes from across the country and my question is Is will so. Why haven't you already trained someone in the church to be the pastor because then then that person knows the church knows everything and they should roll in there and the truth of the matter? There is no one in their wants to be the pastor. Because there's a cost like dietrich bone offers as the cost of discipleship. There's a cost to jumping into into nonprofits or into into faith organizations. There's a cost people have to give up Maybe better paying jobs with better benefits and retirement airman excetera than what they would get here. I'll tell you right now. If you're going to run a re entry or a sober living or reentry or pro drug and alcohol programme facility or even a women's transitional to come out of human trafficking. You're pretty much guaranteed. You're not going to have a four one K.. You're not gonNA have much of a paycheck. Hey check because most of the funding is going to have to go to the operations and your myself. I would be telling my wife honey. I need to take a cut in pay. Hey Do what I WANNA do. And she's going to tell me. Well we already owe this much on the mortgage and this Mertz on the vehicles. So there's a lot of things that come into this discussion when you're looking at that. That's why I'm that brutal on guy. Tell me what it's GonNa cost because good intentions. I love the same. Hells paved with your help. Can It'd be here trying to do something good and you have the best of intentions and you're a great person and it's just not working. It's not worth so you have to learn. I went to Texas and WENT DOWN TO HOUSTON. We have a partner in Houston and and he wants to open up I think three more facilities and do three more programs that are in the prisons there and I had a real good talk with him and he he said. Well it's GonNa take this much money. And he said but if I can get approved for this much money by my supporters he said something. No one has ever told me before. Jeremy he said but I don't want the money given to me till I say here's a start date and I was shocked. He he didn't want the money for the big plan. He wanted the money available right upon execution of that plan and I had so much respect respect for this man because he had looked and he had said this is what is going to be. So let's say was asking for twenty thousand dollars. He didn't need twenty thousand dollars right now because what if only two of those sites would have started yeah and he wanted to be responsible and respectful to what God is provided to that organisation. His Asian. And I've I there's like sixty one organizations we A. No one has ever said that to me and I love him to death for that right. Because that's sparked the whole discussion among ourselves because even as a foundation we have funded some organizations that don't produce what they've said and so how as a Christian. Yes there's grace and there's forgiveness and there's encouragement and all that but we are responsible for the funds that are given given to us that we give out to others hundred percent and if we forget that and we're doing a friendship or oh you know it's all good then. I'm failing ailing everybody. We're trying to work with so it. It's it's interesting which you open a can of worms there's a I don't know about non-profits generally but there are something like forty. Four thousand nonprofits focused on veterans in the United States. Forty four thousand. Now you know all the other nonprofits. I can't imagine how many there are some of the very good work. Some of them not so good but there is a finite amount of money available to the tens of thousands thousands of folks. We're trying to do good work. How do you? How does the organization determine these are the sixty organizations that we're going to support it? What's the what's the vetting process? I like that will let let me tell you Wayne Hughes is our is our guy that's he is. He's the creator of this. He has a heart of gold And he told me something very profound one time we were down looking at an organization and Wayne came himself and I had asked him to your question we know. How are we deciding these things and he said He said everywhere. You step in life you step on a need but but you must be able to determine where you can have the greatest impact on that need K.. So what we do is what we have done in. It's changing aging a little bit for twenty twenty one is We would have organizations That would submit a grant proposal to us and they'd say this is who we are. This is what we want to do. And we've determined whether it was in our guidelines and will in our mission and we would then decide decide how much money we had and how we could best utilize that money to these organizations. So let's say we got two hundred grant. Proposals was just as a number out there And we would only fund fifty of them because we we went and met with them. We talked with them. We talked up to the people inside their programs We wanted to see how they're doing. And what is different about them. That makes an impact that might not be reached within our mission statement. And that's how the funding would be determined this next cycle which will be for twenty twenty one. Because we've already we're already reprocessed are twenty twenty s They're going to. We're going to require a letter of intent We want you to submit a letter of intent to us that gives us a program overview review of what you do what your finances are like who your supporters are etcetera. And we're GONNA look at that and that's going to determine whether or not you're in our you know in our our purview of what we're doing for ministry and if you're not you're going to get a letter back saying thank you you don't fit within our mission statement appreciated. That takes away the need for me to go sit down and do a face to face and spend hours doing that and travel expenses etc.. So there's going to be that then they're going to be those that are left that received a letter back saying okay. We would like to know more about your organization. Go ahead and put in your grant proposal. So they'll put in the grant proposal and we'll start reviewing reviewing those again Great Organization up in Corona put in a proposal for a decent amount of money. A reasonable amount of money. Tony I went and spoke with them and for my view they don't fit in. What are my responsibility? They're doing great work. Great just some of the mission doesn't doesn't right doesn't fit so what I tell them is. Here's my card. You have my number my email and everything. Here's some people that we work with or people that I know. Here's is there contacts. Let's start networking because I will still support what you do. Just our organization can't support financially so there's many that occur like that yeah and it works. It works for us to be a very deliberate process. I think sometimes people starting are so passionate about what they do. They're almost blinded to the fact that there is a lot of need everywhere you step. There is a need yes but the organizations were funding. That really need to go well working we best steward the resources that God has given to sure and then you also five organizations at once. They get a funding organization like us. They feel as if we're always there sure and this now we're creating a legacy program for our partners. Were going to win out Do I need to not mighty oaks. Do I need to Fun Training Center in San Diego. Do I need to fund them for five. Six seven eight nine ten years. No Right my intent in working with them as a program director is to teach them self sufficiency to teach them to go after the money and to manage their program and to grow at a rate. That is sustainable. And that they're able to do that then. I don't need need to give them as much money. I can win them off. And when we're done with them we will still provide them with the database service with the support for their marketing being ex Their management training. It will still support them with that but that's not a financial 'cause they're much more stable organization now because they're not dependent on one or or just a couple of funding sources that's right. They've got relationships. That's right places. Yeah that's right. Ki Ki. Talk briefly we've kind of gotten off track. That's so interesting. And I think there are a lot of people that watch what we do as an organization mighty oaks and because I get the calls and they want to do something similar or something and they wonder how all this works. What was the impetus tip for going from serving California which is what the organization was for a number of years to serving USA? It's not just a name change. No that real implications there jokingly say it's taxes because California's rough no but you're joking. Yeah just half the the drive is were still looking at that issue that I tell you having a great impact. Okay and look who. We deal with veterans veterans of the ones that. Give me me myself my freedoms to say and do what I want to do within the laws and the rights of United States. So I have great respect for veterans options. My entire families veterans on the only one that got in trouble and stuff. But you have a son who's in the Mariathasan he just came out as a sergeant and and he's he walked right into a great job but so the veterans we support now. How do you best support veterans? Like you said there's forty four thousand plus veteran nonprofits out there. Who Do oh you pick so we pick mighty oaks as a star Star Child? We are you are you are. That's right Eh. Because we sat down and we determined after interviewing and talking to you is. It wasn't nobody just through money. Walked up to you and gave you money. They said what do you do. What are your the plans? Because it's not just what you do. Where do you want to be five years from? Now what is it you want to do. So mighty oaks started very small that's right and mighty oaks has grown and has that impact across the country and we have a very close relationship with serving. USS You do you graduated. Graduated from our program. You came and observed and watched and participated You know many folks I mean organization so we have a very close relationship so it's fine you no no because it's a belief it's a real belief in what you do and this is with all of our partners. We believe in what our partners do. So you know we we have have the. We have the veterans who women with human trafficking. That's still growing domestic violence and human traffic and incredible. And it's a it's Oh gosh it's such A. It's a huge huge need and this is a learning process for us though so Stephanie who oversees that part of it as a program director. She's been out there for a a couple of years even finding out. Where and who does the best so that we can have that greatest impact and it is it is something were involved with? Law enforcement were involved with the with the prison systems at county. Jails district attorney's the politicians. Everybody not just in human trafficking and domestic violence because it touches such a huge portion of our society and you take take You can't just say I'm deal with domestic violence. 'cause you who who are the victims of domestic violence veterans prostitutes drug users ars ex offenders. Everybody see you can't just say here's an here's is big scope. She has to whittle down and she's doing a great job and and then in prisons We support in the prison. We support one program which is the Urban Ministry Institute. The reason we supported poured it is at one time. California had like seventy two percent recidivism rate the rate of going back to prison for someone who's released seventy two percent if you run a corporation like that you'd be in jail but the right now they're saying it's forty something percent and I think that that's a little skewed because those to get out on probation or no longer tracked by parole and those that are extradited or are considered so there's a buffer zone in there for them so let's add another twenty twenty percent there at sixty two percent recidivism rate we. They tracked the California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation tracks for three two years. Whether or not an offender comes back serving. USA tracks. Our students who take the urban ministry institute inside a prison we'd tracked track them for five years and we have a last. I looked it was four point. Eight percent recidivism credible and when we started this it it started when I myself in Clever B. who's our vice president when we worked for Prison Fellowship. He had met a man named on Altman or Don Davis us who created the Urban Ministry Institute and he said well how can get it in the prisons and so left. Did one of those small dinner fundraisers with seventy five thousand dollars we piloted it here in California in southern California prisons and directly after that is when I was hired with prison fellowship and I watched it grow too. I've well above twenty states that it's in because the prison systems systems want something that changed the society on the prison yard as well as cuts recidivism now serving USA only funds to me in in California in the original manor which is we fund prison fellowship. Prison Fellowship feel directors. Find the volunteers all in tears that are delivering the program inside the prisons then serving USA. We Fund Transitional Housing and Program Housing people all on the outside for the people that parole out. Ok toomey graduates graduate. Who graduate you have to four modules if you've completed four modules then you're full backing for your re entry services so that's what we're doing California now when we became serving USA? We said we need a different model for out here so what we do now. Is we find those that want to or do deliver to me and we pay for the curriculum so we take that financial burden off of them. But we don't just pay for the curriculum we provide them with a database the management training the fundraising the HR training all all that board development. Everything we provide them with that so we've found organizations that are doing what's within our mission and we fund them and so don't you know in those three areas. That's how we do that. And it's it's quite fascinating to me to see the impact I went to like I said I just came back from Houston not too long ago and I went into the prison and the class was fascinating to me. I walked in and they were doing a final exam surveys quiet. They don't talk. They're all doing during exam. They turn in their examine. The facilitator is checking the test to come back so I grabbed the pile of tests. And I'm looking through them and because I picking out the one question that everybody misses okay because there's always one question most people miss and so when it's done he said would he asked. What is it the Charles was his name? He asked me he said well. What are you looking for? I said I'm looking at at fact is what I'm looking at. Why did they miss this question? Christian and the fact of the matter is reading comprehension. Not The question itself. They did not comprehend the question and he goes. What do you Meena said? Let me let me ask. Different Wind test is done so when everybody was done I asked for this. I ask the same question delivered with different verbiage. Yeah and everybody had the right answer and I said because it were comprehending so even what we do in inside the prison it goes beyond just I. Are you doing to me. Are you doing his curriculum. Because it's not a Bible study. It's thirty two college credits. It comes out of Wheaton College. It's called the Capstone Curriculum. It is not auty easy but your guys are Christians who think. Oh Yeah. I'll just pray over the tests and I already know it and I heard it so I can answer. When's the last time you went to? DMV You go to DMV and you think. Oh Yeah. I've been driving twenty years. I've got this now and you miss six and you're like Oh oh God what happened because you're not comprehend. Your question and if literacy is a struggle you've had education those things not intelligence no I don't have tolls. You don't have the tools good. So what do you do with those people when they come out of prison. They'RE GONNA go get a job hopefully and they're not going to do well at the job because they're not gonNA understand what they're supposed to do it so I mean these are layers upon layers of what serving USA does but serving USA we grew and became serving USA because There was a need and we want national impact. The United States of America's the greatest country on the face of the earth and this country has been and suffering from a moral and social decay for decades. And we're watching right now. The Bible says you know there will be times when what's good is be called L. and what is evil called good and that is the norm out there. That's where we live right. And if I know you wanted to get this later. But if you don't morally orally rehabilitate a person whether it's a veteran of someone from human trafficking someone out of domestic violence someone from prison. If you don't morally rehabilitate take that person and re teach them to renew their mind. They're still in the same place so so hold that thought And I'll frame mm-hmm frame it this way when you talk about women and children you talk about domestic violence or sexual abuse or trafficking in those things. My heart up says we need to do something to help with. My daughter is nineteen. She didn't internship with teen challenge at the beginning of the year. You work with Teen Challenge and Did a great internship with their ministry institute and and one of the things she did was she worked with the the area of human trafficking in that and you know changed her right I get debt. we all want to support our veterans. We want to do that in other people but when it comes to prisoners people who are in the system I think as Americans we have a hard time generally understanding why would we want to work with with prisoners. They've done something wrong now. You your story. Sorry where you came from. We did that you talked about that. Encourage anyone who hasn't seen that's go. Watch that episode. Maybe Michael weaken even linked to that so people can find that So you came out of the prison system you worked for prison fellowship. You've been involved in this your whole adult life and you believe in working with prisoners. So why should we care about working with prisoners. And I don't mean that cold you know how I know I know I know I asked the same question. And we've got a lot of work with prisoners too silted that I believe in it but why should we do that. I went to a home depot to buy some stuff for the prison one sometime. I was buying some tables we needed for the classroom and the manager cracked me up. He said what are these tables for for the prison he goes. Aren't you afraid of those guys. I said they I used to live next door to you. His eyes got like that. Big Like Ono said Yeah. They used to live next door to you. Now they're in prison so I'll guarantee you that whatever they did to get to prison was only one piece of what they'd been doing while they live in an era. So don't look at these guys like. Oh my gosh you know there was A. There's a lot going on in our society in our own communities our own families but I'll I'll do like a metaphor here we we all know what the ripple effect is you take rock and you throw it in a pond and there's a ripples that go out and that's the effect of that rock hitting upon and making those ripples and that's how how crime is described quite often you know a crime occurs and you've got victims. You Got Financials you've got emotional things you've got everything going on from. These ripples also occur But you have to wonder. Where's that rock and rock actually goes down to the bottom of that pond in his stuck in the muck in that pond? Okay and that's what I look at the prisons like you've been thrown in here and there's his ripple effect of the damage you've done to family and friends and the court systems of taxpayers. You name it. There's damage to people you don't even know but that rock is down in in that mud and somebody needs needs to reach down there and get that rock and pull it back up and you think about this if I reach down into a pond and I grab a rock and I'm pulling it up that that water is washing off that muck that stuck to it as it's coming up that's the ministry part while they're in prison still underwater. They need to have that ministry it to them to wash them. With the water of the word to clean their heart and their soul to morally. Rehabilitate that person. So that when that person comes up it comes out of prison. What happens when I pull that rock out of the water there's another ripple series it goes and that ripple series needs to be positive ripples? A father has to become a father to his children. A mother needs to be a mother to her children. Someone that's in a drug addict or thief Robert Robert of whatever you wanted name in there needs to come out. Better cleaned up person out of their California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation is a misnomer because rehabilitation. What do you know the definition of rehabilitation probably to rehabilitate is to put back in in its original Stayton? Okay like you restore could do that. No you. Don't WanNa do that because if you do that right Oh wait a minute. Here's a here's a ten thousand dollar thing if if if you rehabilitate someone you're saying that that person is now restored to his or her original status in the Society Second Amendment Rights. Do they get those. Should they vote right. Should they serve on a jury and what about a sex offender. Oh my God. Where should that person be able to live? What about that prostitute? Don't let her near my husband. We ought to worry about your husband. Because he's not her he's the client okay but all these things come to my mind now. I just recently met with a Department of Corrections and rehabilitation administrator. And she he was telling me she's got like nineteen years. I think it is in the department and she Was a custody staff before now. She's what's called a community resource manager. She's a liaison between the community. And what resources she can bring into the prison for the prisoners and she was telling me you know she never got him she never understood. It would waste any time on that inmate. Why do you waste time on that guy? Because look at him look what he did. He's here he's he's here to be punished. Let him be punished. And that's that's reasonable. Someone hurt someone in my family. It's on please don't do that. You know But she was at a graduation they have graduations for guys you get their. GED Highschool Business Services Vocational College etc.. And this affluential Asian Family came in and she she goes. I knew you could tell by the way they wear clothes. And how comfortable they they're just affluential you know. They've come from another country. They've worked very hard their success for here. They have pride in their family and it was a mother and her and her her other son but they're one son was graduating and he was the he was the top graduate so he got to give a speech and he started talking about. You know this is. This is where I've ended up in these. This is what I've done. And he kept real short not like that. Because I hate boasting about crimes. He said I did this. Yes and this is where I'm at. He says but since I've been here I've gotten my ged. I've gotten these vocational certificates. I've graduated eduated from these classes now in getting my master's degree and I did this for my mother and my brother who's sitting there because I want them to know that there's better things to do in life than to be in here but regardless of where you end up you still need to do your very best and she goes. I got it then. It's not about him. It's about what impact he has. So that's why I do what I do. I obviously Lisa care about an absolutely love. The people that I work with sure but for me. It's business There's people in the prison system. They've known me for thirty five years and I come in and I'm not their friend when I come in. I'm there to do a job and my job is very serious to me. I tell people all the time you WANNA do life on the installment Ullman Plan. You WanNa keep doing crime and coming back. That's on you do it. Don't waste my time and don't waste my resources but if you want help I will do everything I can to help you. And it's because because I'm back to that rock coming up out of there. What happened to me personally? I I was brought up by people around me which means other people into prison. They did that that they did that. Washing and changing my thought patterns. They got me how to gangs. They got me out of drugs. Got Out of all that and supported me and I was shocked that so little outside support came in so. That's why I do what I do. When I paroled? I told him I will be back with programs that will be able to provide positive attitude changes for everybody in here. The warden's appreciate that things that I do you in a couple of partners that I work with their they have. We've cut violence down on the yards. We've cut gang affiliations down on the yards. we've worked with some guys that have been called in for suicide intervention. Um and I'm shocked I don't I'm not an employee. Why are you calling me Nick? Because they want to talk to you you and this is what's important to me now. Having worked with these people for Twenty one years I've been home twenty one years. I now see not so many. Who have gotten out? That are still doing tremendously well and I think those are the stories that should be spoken about. That's not what we talk about. No I know. Here's a guy thirty eight years in prison life. Without the possibility of parole. He had killed his father. His father used to beat the kids and all that so him and he got a guy. Diane they killed his father and he got life without. That's that's cool. You know that was the law. Will the governor. Two years ago commuted the sentence to twenty five to life because is in thirty eight years in prison. He had one single disciplinary report. which was his cell? He had a tattoo gun but wall in prison college degree. A family therapist alcohol drug counselor. He any worked with the inmates. He created academic tracking systems for the Department Department. KREJCI did all these things and the governor governor said. I'll let you talk to the Board of prison terms and let them decide whether or not you've earned getting out well. He paroled and he got out and he came down here to San Diego and the parole agents. Were like okay. You're the first life without we've gotten What do we do with you and he says you do whatever you want because I do what I'm told? And so. We worked with them for a little while and it was less than three months. I think it was eighty one days after he got out. Oh I took him back to prison on parole lifer. I took him to the same prison that he did. Most of his time at which was Calapan to speak at a graduation and he was talking to the families that were there and he said I wanNA tell you said thirty eight years and here's my achievements. You know school academics. Everything else that I've done. Hey said and why did I do that. I was supposed to die in prison. There's no reason for me to do at people that are doing life. Sentences do programs and academics so that when they go to the board they look good but this man was never going to go to the board and he said why did I do that. He said I did it so I'd be a better father to my children. A better husband to my wife and a better person in the community I live so now. He lives in Ohio. He's been interviewed for jobs. Jobs with the Department of Corrections in Ohio and life is good and these are success. Stories that I love to see. But where did it start moral moral rehabilitation how you think. So that's why do I do. I could talk to you for four or five hours about that. I talk about legacy a lot as our programs. Go Alexi Program we we speak on legacy and teach on legacy. I think the most vivid picture of legacy I have in my mind was one of the programs you brought us into to teach at Sentinela Ele- I taught a legacy class which two guys who are there without the opportunity parole it. It's an interesting situation to be sure. And for whatever reason because I'm not smart I I said raise your hand if a A family member that was close to you is in prison before you in just about every member the guy who was sitting two tables back right in front Johny. He said because when you're in that environment to raise their hand or anything they just say what they're gonNA say he said I had my dad's parole officer when I was out Probation Officer Probation Officer and my son now has my probation officer and when I think about legacy in the negative sense. That's that's the picture that always comes to my mind. And that's what you're saying you can change that you can change that you need to. There's a pipeline that feeds the judicial system and that pipeline starts with family. Okay that's where it starts I go to prisons where there's father and son on the same yard in the same cell crow and well it's not incredible to me Cro. Yeah because the dad was the example to the child as a child grew up an when the dad's gone the neighborhood is his example. And so it's natural. I mean An animal runs with its own kind and humans run with their own kind which is meaning social standard and and You know it's not shocking to me. It's IT'S I. What shocking to me is the acceptance of that? I mean the people understand. This is my eight year old son. He's GonNa get jumped in a gang when he turns ten and that's acceptable and I don't understand that or you you know mom you know. Mom is a prostitute and dad's a heroin dealer and dad's in prison right now we're taking our kids go visit him because mom's GonNa sneak drugs into him hidden hidden in her body and that's acceptable and that's not to me. That's right. That is absolutely not even in the prison. We had one guy overdose on drugs. It swallowed a balloon of drugs that he had smuggled in and the he it popped and he overdosed and died and the church because he went to church in prison. All all the guys wanted to do like a wake for him you know. Let's let's do this celebration of life and they go you come and talk. You don't want me to talk and they're like well. What do you mean gene? Anyway I went in and they they said you know speak speak on his behalf and I didn't I said let me look at all of you guys sitting out here everyone money. You're responsible for his death. Everyone of urine a small yard. There's a couple of hundred guys on the yard and everyone you knew he was smuggling drugs and selling drugs and none of you did what it took to get him off of it and to stop him so when that balloon popped you murdered him and I turned around and walked out. Haven't been invited back since but that's the truth that's right it is a treat because how can you. How can you tell somebody and especially Christians I love you brother? How can I tell you I love you and let you continue to do what you do? I don't care if you're offended that I challenge you at what you're doing but I'm not going to be chased away because you're offended either because you're my brother and I understand if you die you're going to heaven that's good but why do you have to leave that legacy so the you know these are reasons. Why do what I do? It's very important to me I meet someone on the streets. You know I'm in the supermarket and and somebody just having a bad day. That person's important to me because that person is is GonNa pay it forward somehow and that's why I do what I do. How important is the Gospel to to this process without without you have nothing? There's no basis to anything unless you have the Gospel in there. There must be an acceptance of Christ a surrender to what he teaches I do weddings. Also a pastor so I do weddings and I always tell them look like a passenger. I tell every single bride and groom I said with whether you believe in God or not mattel you this right now. There's a love chapter and it starts with two foundational stones. Love is patient. Love is kind. And if you don't have that you're not going to go anywhere and it will. Where do you get that? Boom you're gonNA learn from God because as you read the rest of I Corinthians Thirteen it tells you that all the attributes of God and says God and love never fails I said but the reality is you're gonNA fail that go back to you patients who kindness. I'm patient with you that you've failed and I'm going to be kind. You not throw it in. Your face are sure going to go work through this and that's heads you know the Gospel. The Gospel has to be there. I never ever would be where I'm at right now. If it wasn't for God one hundred percent I could not. Bs My way into this. I could not You think twenty one years. I've done this. I've been home twenty one years. I did it inside the prison to since one thousand nine hundred eighty nine so since one thousand nine hundred nine nine. I've been under a microscope. People expect me to fail That's that guy from the guy from the military that's been that rambunctious guy that Rowdy Biegel. You expect them to be like that his whole life people expect me to fail my greatest joy my second greatest joy when I die besides seeing Jesus is going to be see that they're going to have to admit that I didn't get in trouble. I'm passive aggressive. I will drop dead. But it's that moral rehabilitation that starts starts with the Gospel understanding that I think the biggest message ever heard was on father's day that I have a father in heaven. Who loves me? You know my hi. Dad did not know how to love a kid. My Dad taught me how not to be a father and but I have a father in heaven. It loves me that CORRECTS ME that forgives me guide me that teaches me my entire life and if I didn't hadn't accepted Christ I never would have known that because in prison you go to the county jail people sneak in tobacco and you always want a little pocket Bible those little pocket bibles because the papers real thin and you can roll cigarettes out of it and smoke. That's what a Bible was worth to me for years but without that Gospel you have nothing nothing all you have no foundation and build a life no and you live in fear and you're living a lie you're living a hypocrite because God doesn't want you to be where you're at. He wants you to be with him doing what he wants you to do. With power and authority forty not as a name it and claim it but someone who's studied to prove himself. You know workman that need not be Shane Rightfully dividing the word of God. Same as we. We talked about five. Oh One C.. Threes nonprofits do it right. Yeah do it right. You learn that from God that's right. That's incredible so so connected to that kind of last question leading out We talk about hope. Probably the most hopeless place. I've I've been personally would be. You know the time you've taken us into into prison and and just just hopeless now. We then talked to a lot of people who have a lot of hope and enjoy even in their relationship with Christ even in that situation. But but what do you say to someone who. You've spent a Lotta time in a hopeless place around hopeless people Not just prisoners but people who are without hope. What do you say to them? How do you help understand? There is open and what point them to Outside of prison I I just I have a friend right now. That broke his collar bone in Italy and they gave him like a figure. Eight thing to walk around like this for forty days. It'll be fine. I mean the bone was about that far apart and it was the the third piece floating so he came back here to the United States and it took till just two weeks ago to get the surgery so he's been walking around in shock in pain not getting being sleep and he's ADHD anyway so he had like panic attacks you know and he called out a called said Ah. Here's the total of the phone conversation. My wife and I were eating dinner. I picked up the phone. I say what's up he said. Can you come please as I'll be right there and hung up. Because I heard it in him and I got to his house in these areas like Jonah kill myself. As I can't do this I want to just kill myself. I'm having an anxiety. diety attack in his bid. I just can't do it. Everything's falling apart all around me and I said we'll just sit down. Let's talk remember his collarbone still broken. Can't hug him or nothing. Because I squeeze hard but I started I just started talking to him and I and I talk in a monotone voice to him because he needs sleep and and he's sitting in his legs going like this and he's like look in his phone dings and he picks it up and I like to shut your eyes. Take some breath from it take to rest for me. Just take Josie like half breasts as keep your eyes closed. I said when I'm talking to you I want you to listen to me and I resigned. I touched like from his right above his knee down like like that and he said don't open your eyes and I just kept talking to him and what I did. I took his mind off here to. Why did you touch me? You know my wife's there so it was all good buddies uh-huh but I know to give that distraction and I started talking to any any finding went to sleep and went to see my turn his phone off. I'm GonNa kill let phone because every time it didn't pick it up and look at it and so for twenty minutes. Then he woke up again and start talking to what I talked about. I said listen. What is it you do? And he said well I. I work with drug and alcohol. Rehab and I'm I'm a pastor and people be shocked at a pastor would go through this but he wanted commit suicide and I said so. What are your duties? What are your responsibilities? What is it for your family? I said what is your main priority. Said my daughter I said okay. So let's talk about your daughter your priorities your daughter. If you give into these thoughts what do you do to your daughter. And it broke him so I came back the next day and I was talking to him. I said let's make a worry list because you think there's no hope that's why as anxiety. There's no let's make an anxiety list. Let's make a worry list. So he wrote down like seven things and the first one's a daughter autre next one was his place of business. And then these little funky things and I said okay look did you pray about these. You said Yeah I said I'm praying about them but they're still there. I said you know why. Why because there's no action plan so let's take the first one and I called new his daughter? She was Aaron Rosa. What's your number one job? When Your Dad's going going through this she said Noggin trouble in school? Do my best be. There's wise that's done change. I said she's got it exactly right. I said now look at work I said so you have three people you have a CEO you have you know these as three people as well. Let's do these emails right now and tell them exactly. What's going on and delegate relegate to them and take that away from you it's off your plate did that then? The next thing was rent and car payments financial. 'cause we do that and I said did I started to walk through. How much is your as well? I've got X.. Amount of dollars in the bank. Well then you don't even need these on here like ten grand in a bank so you don't even need. They're they're I paid as so here's your list and here's your action list. The only thing you need to take action on was what you considered your business. which is his ministry and it has people there that you delegate it to that you believe in so when I run into someone who says they have? No why am I here. I ask that question. If there's no hope why am I here. Why are we talking? Why are we even talking because you want home? That's why you want something. That is a light at the end of the tunnel. So let's draw out of that person. And that's what hope is I was in segregation. I spent four years in segregation Because because they had taken all the gang members off the prisons yards and they put us in segregation segregation. Was Pure. Hell there was a point where a group of US decided sided. We're GONNA cut the ends of our little fingers off and write our letters to the governor male amount to them. You know just stupid stuff. Because you're you're just there's desperation but in in the middle of that for years towards the end of it but in in all that having no hope of ever getting out because they told us you will be segregated until the day you parole or die so in the middle of that. Somebody wrote me a letter about Jesus and they said I don't know you. I've never met you but God put it on my heart to write to you and this is what God wants you to know and I looked at that and I said what kind of crackpots stuff is this. Who is this yes and I wrote back and said you know who are you? What is this and it started this conversation and I was? I didn't know but I was mad at God. Yeah and then all of a sudden one day I got really pushed by this person because I kept sending me this crashed in garbage and I throw it away and just answer the letter. Because I'm getting mail you know and I told that person I said I like dogs more than people. And here's why people are backstabbers is because I'm gonNA dark place I said I. Don't you know you you talk bad about each each other. You're hypocrites. Everything that I was I wrote down on paper and I sent that letter back. That's fine and a week later. I got this single page. I just letter I thought for sure it was like okay bye but in it was attract about bury the heroic dog which led me to the Lord because I had to be be able to relate to something so hope comes in many different avenues. My hope came in a story about a rescue dog. There were saving a guy out in the snow. The man stabbed stab the dog. The dog went back to the owner and I was mad. They stabbed the dog and the Guy Stabbed the dog and the man followed. The blood came back and found the guy and that was the big story but in reality there's a trail of blood that leads the cavalry. And that was my hope. So hope is the only the thing that keeps US alive. Whether you're a believer not you hope for a better job. You hope for a better car. Better girlfriend though. I hope I get a good dinner. Homeless Person Hopes I get enough to buy a shot of dope so I don't feel it or by a beer. The hope is what drives us. We need to find that. Hope it is going to change you forever. Yes and that is the Gospel. Yeah nothing else right. Nothing that's awesome. That's awesome thank you John. We can talk for Komo hours cheers. We'll do it again sometime. It's only coffee in here. Mines Water Water. I didn't get coffee. We'll we'll do it again. maybe six months. Sure six months. We'll just revisit it. I appreciated it and anyone who listens to listen to all the podcast but anyone listens listens in your veteran listening. And you're you're struggling. You're having a hard time or you're just looking for some home call and talk to Jeremy or whoever's here people the answer the phone it's an amazing thing. Don't shut her door because if you shut her door all you've done is chosen to be alone and there's all kinds of people around you that I love you and care for us right. Yeah And I think that's one of the things about hope people feel like no one cares about me and both of us are engaged in a work of caring caring for people and then the thing no one cares about them. Yeah there really are. People and men are greatest. Our greatest payment is when someone responds. Yes I mean. We get a huge smile on her face and in her heart. And we're able to say while I'm needed by this person and that person that you go to to minister to to work with always ends up feeding us more than we feed them absolutely. You can't put a price tag on that you're paying forward investing in someone in them investing in others. That's awesome thank you John. Thank you for watching and again. If you're listening somewhere else. Incredible partners at Mojo great podcast anywhere. You're listening we're thankful for it if you have not gotten on the youtube page or you're there right now. Get on Youtube Channel and subscribe hit the notification bell that lets you know when new things come online and We're thankful to provide this content for thanks for watching and we'll catch up with you okay.

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Former Security Guard and Atheist Activist Steve Hill on the Prison System

Point of Inquiry

43:35 min | 1 year ago

Former Security Guard and Atheist Activist Steve Hill on the Prison System

"Welcome to another edition of point of inquiry. I'm today's host Jim underdown recording live from the secular sacristy at center for inquiry West in Los Angeles in June June of this year I about thirty or forty other people took a bus up to the medium security prison in Hell City California and we were judges and a pitch competition held with a bunch of inmates at that facility where they AAC came up with business ideas and pitched it to US judges. We analyzed scored those pitches and narrowed the field and announced. I winners at the end of the day. It was an enlightening experience to say the least. We're going to talk to two different people people with unique perspectives about the penal system the first Steve Hill comedian atheist activist former marine and former prison guard who worked in the state of California Penal System as a guard for ten years. WE'LL GET Steve's perspective on a prison prison. Life and rehabilitation and punishment thanks for tuning in this is point of inquiry. Steve Hill is here. Hello thanks for having me. Thanks for having me on so first of all. Let's just let the audience know a little bit about you like were you from originally okay. I'm originally from Saint Louis Missouri born born on the north side you ever been in Saint Louis I have been to is it now not knob hill something. What's the hill called. That's not the north side of Saint Louis. No but I know what you're talking. It was it was an attack on the north side is basically where they can find black people to live at north side very very very long lasting ghetto area. Is it a segregated cities. Yes yes it is yes it is it's it's yeah you know before. They built the Gateway Arch in that thing down on Riverfront Westward Expansion Jefferson expansion they had a lot of black folks live down on the riverfront because they would unload the barges and ships coming up and down the Mississippi River yeah so in order to do that project that they started I think in the late fifties fifties they moved a lot of blacks out in North County and all on the north side of Saint Louis. They had some in the south side prude. I go project six but for the most part they put a freeway things to to seventy and they divided up the neighborhoods yeah left St Louis in seventy nine zone a United States Marine Corps era stationed at Camp Pendleton spent the majority of my time in the Marine Corps in Southern California. Okay I got out. FIRMA Barstool Marine Corps logistics space in Barstow California went to Los Angeles worked in aerospace industry the CNC computer numerical control machinists but I kinda got bored with that and decided I want to do something a little bit more exciting so I went to a joint California Department of Corrections well. I gotTa tell you that's an unusual way to find excitement but I could imagine that it would be yeah away trustee. They some very exciting days season in California state Brazil where were you. You're a prison guard yeah yeah. I started off at a which is California Correctional Institution. It's a happy be and then I transferred. I think in ninety three to C. P. L. A. C. Which is California State Prison. Los Angeles County which is the only state prison found within the bounds of of Los Angeles County. That's where I retire from and so. How do you get to be that I mean to you is Irt has got. It'd be some kind of training involved. Oh yeah you go to a regular academy. Just like your peace officer. You have to pass the post exam peace officer standards and training and you go to the academy and you learn law you learn about how to secure the safety and security thirty of the institution. That's your only job is to safety and security of the institution and everything that falls within that scope of employment but yeah yeah. There's there's training but the best part you get on the job training. Yeah I imagine yeah yeah even at the Academy we went to Folsom State Prison Mill Creek State Prison and at the time they had also some new folsom so we went to both of those rose and we did our training you know kind of breaking in getting used you know. I can still remember the first time walking up to a sale door and seeing to is right there at the door looking back at me. It's like a feeling that you have to get used to because I don't think humans were meant to be caged. Caged up like that is ox bars or no this was this was new folsom so they just had a glass window. Oh in the sale door about six inches wide but twenty four inches long but take some take some getting took some getting used to but you know a lot of Marine Corps training kicked in any kind of carried over and also what's the well you know you have to have a UCR Ziara your command voice the where you bring your voice up from your diaphragm and get people pay attention and you just it's a Macho Macho. Oh you know situation. Let's let's keep the perspective. You're an inmate. I'm an officer. I'm wearing a bed and you know you you. You get used to used to it. You don't want to show too much weakness or no you can't now you can't show any weakness. You can't show them that. There may be even battling of an opening for for you to be manipulated because that's what inmates do they find out how to manipulate you and that's why they stress that officers do not become over familiar with the inmates so they don't want you getting to to to Chubby and then the next exciting you know you're bringing in contraband. Your you know drugs hair care products Mascara anything like that to keep that keeps officers straight keeps everybody playing their position. Basically so what level level of of facilities are these places that you were in. What would I wear atrophy. There were matter of fact that both institutions I worked at they were all four levels of security minimum level one level two which is median in you had a bore a a and four B maximum security all in the same facility on the same facility so the different security levels in pre prisons. are generally associated with the level of crime you do in your threat as a right as an inmate right so they were violent. Crime is higher higher level of security higher security risk higher escape risks and you know that's why during the reception reception center all the inmates are assigned to a counselor and the counselors are the ones that calculates their risk level so then by a point system now at some point even those maximum level security level inmates because they've done so much much time where they had no adverse action in Iraq. It's you can you can lower your level of custody. If you've been a good ride and you've been a it and you know I I had to murderers on the level one yard. It's a hat to be murderers. Let alone you know but they've stay clean. They did a lane a proven themselves. They demonstrated that they're not a risk to staff or the institution so so so it's not necessarily their crime itself that it might be yeah now. Some can never they can only go down so far especially depending on your career doing life without the possibility of parole artist you you you may be a level three yard but you're not right going down to level two or level one just because of the nature of your fence because you're always going to be considered something like it okay if you who had the capacity to do that it went yearly going down so far as far as your level of security all right just talking about the types of prisons is in general talk about the difference between public and private prisons and maybe pros and cons of opinion well the the the biggest difference to me is for the State Prison. You have more more rules regulations. You have well trained union officers. I will well paid. You know they have an advocacy. You know they have the Union California Correctional Peace Officers Association and for the private prisons just just like anything else. That's privatized. There's usually lower pay because the people at the top are skimming that Labor and that's why by unions will always be a good thing especially as it relates to our peace officers but I don't think there should be any any for profit imprisons period period and a lot of like New York state has just done away with their whole private prison system. It seems inhumane to me for someone to to to make a profit off of someone else's disadvantage in life like if you had no education. You had no hope you had any all of a sudden inmate now. There's there's going to be somebody to come in and and actually monetize your your bat situation that that you found yourself. I mean it's it's inhumane to me to be need to their financial benefit advance yeah more the better the more than Maria because now you're gonNA. You'RE GONNA have judges getting paid to to incarcerate people and those people usually look like me. You're going to have prosecutors with the they get kickbacks and benefits and anything you can imagine that that corrupt system and usually money corrupts a system anything you can imagine you're going to have people trying to get inmates to go to that direction other private prisons because when they need to keep running one thing that's absolutely essential is inmates and they gotta come from somewhere and California. Do you have any idea how many private prisons are now. I Know Gavin newsom had been speaking about doing away with all the private prison which I think would be the most humane thing that a governor could do and I hope it comes to fruition. It's kind of oxymoron private private prisons within the state of California. I would think that California is much more progressive than that. I'm just hoping that we'll do the right thing gene paint a little picture of like a daily life in these prisons How much outside time do they typically gave. What sort of freedoms do they have. How much time they in the salad south if they're in a sal well depending on their level of custody? No two level one and happy used to be all hunting launch which they used to hunt bears so they had these dormitories and the inmates had had rooms. They had the key to their own room like two men room but then you go up security ladder. Maybe maybe like a level four. You're in a concrete sale. You gotTa Steal Toilet in two bucks and and if your points are they'll enough you get a job. You can meet your marriage yet. It is kind of like your scoring scoring system of what level of custody you're going to be okay and you know if if you qualify you have to pass them tests you could get into a vocation like in Lancaster. They had a pulse they had masonry auto mechanics teaching people how to do these teaching and he's inmates could would get really good and not only get the training they will get defer day so for every day that they show up. They get a day taken off of their sentence. Wow it would behoove them to get into any vocation. They could and you know it's beneficial. It looks better too for whenever you vote for a parole hearing. They said Oh well this has all of these certificates and he finished the auto mechanics class. He can put together a car car engine. I had a couple of car car engine rebuilt. They did a pretty good job but now we'll somewhat higher them once they get out once they see that they have a convicted felon mark on their resume. That's that's an entirely other story so there are these limited programs comes in a would you say they're in most prisons that house training most yeah they're they're. They're in most and then on some some imprisons half a which is prison industry authority where basically it's slave labor to be honest with you. I think the inmates at two they were making chairs up there for the state. You know fabric would just like a full blown factory. WHO's that Ashley Furniture. They had an outfit up there in the inmates who are making. I think the top pay number at that time. In the Mid Ninety S was about thirty seven cents an hour so basically slave wages they were they were if you ever even pay a slave you pay as little as possible. That's what they did and even the the porter's janitors in the do the sale blocks. I think they were getting like sixteen cents. An Hour. Wow sounds like scientology or checking processing plant in Mississippi right when I look back and I think about you know everything that I saw California Department of Corrections. Some was good. It was a Mish Mosh. Some was bad someone someone like just totally inhumane. Did you paint a little picture. I probably didn't get to know these guys too well but um obtained paint a picture of the typical guy. How does he end up and you'll be you be especially now. You GotTa think about this and I've I've pondered it a a lot I lived in. La during the eighties crack epidemic epidemic drugs rampant south-central. That's where all all of this straight outta Compton and Eagle would and all this stuff was really happening in the eighties with drugs that were coming up thanks Ronald Reagan again and then I go to work in prison in the nineties and a lot of these brothers and you know you. GotTa have a report with these inmates. It's not you could wind did one day but a lot of the I would talk inmates. I I'm not the kind of office I wasn't the kind of office. It'd just sitting my ass on the the office. I would go sale to sail. Hey what's up Kaminsky. How how how you doing what's going on today and talk to you just you you know because they they they crave that human connection communication taught so I would not talk a lot of these black guys and they were you liked the most most of them are just the most average smart intelligent human beings but because where they lived at the cost of the situations they come from in this conversation could go forever because this goes all the way back to slavery when they didn't want to edge where it was against the damn law for them educate US right and now you've got all of these inner city areas with no education. No hope not not much of nothing but you get these these people. Is these black people that get stuck up in the prison system because they're trying to eat. They're trying China survive. They're trying to live in America when every everything tells you in America it's all about money money money success with all the materialistic bullshit. What do you have have you own all of that and they get caught up in find themselves prison. You know they might sell in. We think about it now. All of these guys that I in the lockup wit selling drugs we crack whatever weed is legal now. How many people are still dylan in how many people are still in and how many black people now are actually benefitting off of the cannabis industry I mean you. Do you think we would be first in line for licenses. Jobs grow rural operations cultivation distribution bution distribution consumption. You think we would be but now. I mean I I know people that that have immigrated from other countries that are that are in the cannabis industry now making money these guys. I'm saying guys because it's it's. It's mostly men in prisons yeah but are women women. Women population increasing also going to yeah they. They just shouldn't be disregarded. They want to a women's prison in Lancaster right now. They're pushing for one so all right. These people are there entrepreneurs. I mean you don't have a drug empire without being an entrepreneur. These I met so many brothers is that were like intelligent. SMART could hold a conversation with you about multiple multitude of subjects Ivan Into Hatch P. and this is going to trippy out a little bit. I used to work visiting because it was overtime position and you can sign up for I will work visiting at the four A. Four A. R. Where there was an inmate by the name and I won't say his name but as as we get further into story people are no talking about. I don't WanNa say his name because he's not a public person. The other person I'm going to bring up is a public person and he's in prison so he really can't do nothing to me right now. You shug night is to sit in the visiting room. Oh talking to a certain inmate and I used to watch him even have this grease ball looking attorney attorney with them with this oily hair and they would always come up and visit this one inmate and I knew the inmate. He worked in the kitchen. We had a really good a good rapport but anyways this is this is not got the money to start death row records L. This is this inmate I'm talking about was multimillionaire from the drugs. He was one of the biggest cocaine dealers in Los Angeles and the guy was brilliant as you were saying you have the brightest and the best I mean you could have like CEOS and executives somebody's inmates that they were actually running multimillion-dollar street drug cartels in Los Angeles and other other places in the state but just think if they had opportunity to get education maybe wind up at USC UCLA and channel that and it didn't go back and help everybody else in the community get education and then guess what we can get rid of some of these damn churches this. We're wasting human resources valuable dooming resources to feed IT industry. which is the prison industry to keep that whole industry going wall? CECE CECE PA is is I think the biggest and strongest union in the state of California and their advocates they would like to to keep this whole thing going collecting the dues having a lot of political influence but it's an industry well and that's an expensive one for the state exactly imagine imagine if they were to put all the money in the in the from the prisons into education because we're paying for it. We're paying for it one way or the other. It would be a lot cheaper to give these these kids preschool kindergarten. I mean and give them lunch. Give them everything we think they need. All the will come out ahead because correction officers are making ninety thousand a year. Well not to mention yeah. I was so over time I mean I. I knew officers that were raking in six figures easy every year. Well I mean it's pretty common knowledge that Ed's tens of thousands of dollars a year to keep a person in prison per year per inmate. That's a lot of school lunches. That's a lot of tutoring. That's that's a lot of a lot of things and that's a lot of. I mean you could do parenting classes. We we have a need for parenting classes because every every it seemed like all the parents so stressed out they don't have the means or the willingness it breaks. There were to be really heavily involved while in their kids academic advancement is just because the way our society is starting to break down you know you got the single family single home mom and dad's going someplace else and all of these other problems education and jobs and in the income disparity you have all of these problems especially up where I live at in in Lancaster and Lavallee they can't focus on their kids education because they have just too much stress and strife going on their life just trying to maintain a place to live you know the housing crisis is ridiculous. The reds here in California out of control so all of this has a ripple effect well and those are and those are the people you're talking about are people who are trying to make a legitimate effort. I mean we heard stories from Tom. These guys at I mean some of them. Both their parents were drug addicts or both of them were in a gang at and then never even occurred to me that both of your parents would be in a gang and of course you're going to be in a gang right your whole world from day. One is gang land product of your environment yeah right so it's it's. It's what's really amazing that people break the circle and somehow get out of it it that that conversation because it could go a lot of different ways because if you think about African Americans we don't have access to those people who are in position to provide some kind of assistance knowledge information about how to it's it's troubling. It's troubling to me to see how in America sometimes is is just simply who you know just like I'm a real estate appraiser. They're very few African. American real estate appraisers to be arrested appraiser. You have to be brought on and train underneath another real estate appraiser now very few usually usually that acceptance that willingness to train you to get your apprenticeship hours comes from someone that you know right. You don't just walk right in the street and say hi my name's Steve Right. Could you trust me. When I first started my business. I try that and it didn't work out very well. I was almost ready to give up until somebody told me. Oh I know this guy. You gotta pay him three four grand but you know he'll sign your work off. You can get your apprenticeship hours and be on your own but now in the state of California. There's very few of us because of that right there. You don't know any any any bit group of black real estate appraisers skit skit this could be applied to a lot of different locations in jobs but if you don't know none of these people your chances of going that direction taking being that route and starting a viable business and my business survived the mortgage meltdown and all of that if you don't know how to get in as african-amer we don't know how to get in a lot of things. Sometimes we might look into it. Just by knowing the right person or somebody say oh well that that guy there is really trying. I'm going to help them out. I'm a I'm a white person and got them it. I'm a help them out that helped that you receive that could help a family for generations. Sion's because now you started a business. You can't might inherit the business other people you might you might bring in cousins that but we'd be kept out a so much stuff in this country if you were king in the world and I know your political aspirations are heading that way. What are they easy fixes in the in the prison system right now but should they be good. They should be doing more of an what's hurting people. All of these jobs abs especially in the tech industry. I heard they trading inmate as a vocation as a career choice anyone that has a expectancy of getting out anytime soon train them to do computer coding. We have a lack of computer coders in the country. I mean these are our six figure jobs up in silicone valley at San Jose Bay area kids up their college kids making a lot. AUTOMO- why can't you get a inmates who are locked up in in their sales most of the time give them opportunity he to learn jobs have careers that are actually need it right now and in the future and in the future. I mean computers are not going away. Trump would say you could teach them how to be coal miners or maybe Dr Horse and care yeah. How does how does taxi taxi drivers doing right now with all these Uber's lifts running around now so training inside training what else inside training they need to acknowledge that we have a true problem with the recidivism rate and that's inmates going back to prison because a lot of these guys is man they they they come. They don't really have a platform for success once they get out right they should have better are better programs. They should have you know even at some of the biggest companies take a percentage of those inmates. Take a small percentage but if you spread it out through you know through all of the industries and companies businesses take a portion. That's that's a segment of our society. These guys are still a human beings. They're not animals. A lot of these guys are intelligent smart like we spoke of receptive to learning new things WCHS so program on the outside for hiring and yeah great incentivize incentivize these companies companies and businesses tell we'll give you a sufi fifty thousand dollar tax credit for every convicted felon you hire and train and get him to be a viable successful part of your business he cheaper than keep them in the CAN. Dan exactly exactly. We'll give him half of that right. You're probably going to come out like trump would say winning. You'RE GONNA be so sick of winning yeah but you know I think as a society as a human being we owe people. Oh a second second chance especially here in America is worth for you supposed to get the second chances well. Yeah I mean this is is part of it too because I mean I've. I'm not going to get into details but I've committed crime. I got caught once once or twice but if I would have been caught doing something serious I would have had access to a decent lawyer. I probably just the results would have been the same as if I were a poor kid yeah. F- poor area yeah. Let me tell whole nother. That's a whole that's a whole nother in an I. I speak about this. We have two different justice systems one for people with money and influence and one for everybody else and that one for everybody else's the one that feeds the prison industry right right after after working at a prison for ten years and seeing all of these black men who I think I think we African American men make up six percent at population of California but like fifty four percent the prison population after leaving the prison retiring from prison opening up a real estate appraisal business in two thousand and four that was about three years before the mortgage meltdown. I watched so many people lose their homes a lot of black people right right now. african-american homeownership is at its lowest point in history. I saw so many people lose their homes. So many kids have to move changed. You know their whole. Oh little foundation structure is gone. They have to leave their school and go move in with someone else and I kept my business going everything recovered but then in two thousand ten two thousand eleven when the market that's when the market started to recover. I noticed that nobody went to jail all of that chaos all of that financial ruin destruction people were like ruined. They took all the equity out of their homes and they lost their homes. I mean all of this was criminal to me and nobody went to jail now. If you could look at it and we will release the cell block doc and I just see one black man after one black man it bill it looked to me like this can't be real surreal just black black man after black men after black man come out the cell block and then none of them go to jail. Is there anything that you saw or see not in the prison system that was clearly doing our society a disservice like what are they doing wrong. That should change. If there was anything that I would recommend it will give it would give those those inmates mate's more human human contact just being a little bit more humane. These guys are locked up. I mean things that happened. In prison Israel Yano they got a lot of shows but you have guys that you would never think were or homosexual the sexual but they prey on the young guys or the guys who are per se weaker don't have as much juice or maybe not in a gang we used to call them walk loans where they're not in no gang affiliation and maybe their Asian so they don't have a big group of Asians Asians to hang out with for protection in in numbers in a lot of things happen in prison like rape and homosexuality and and you know some of these guys but for the lack of of human affection from female they would never in our wildest dream imagine raping some inmate or even being any of the homosexual acts but but when you locked up with guys all the time. I think it should be more human. I think we should allow that like okay. You got a long time girlfriend here. You you get a conjugal visit. You know it's it's Kinda like a manhood type type of thing a a human desire a deep desire for human effects in that it would be a natural unnatural to take that away from some of these guys well and I mean most of the guys we saw on off this jibes with your experience but they're younger guys. These guys are like eighteen to forty or something right hire their sexual yeah and just kind of out right so I'm kind of outlet but think about about it man you. You have these guys who are released more day now. They're used to having sex with men. They're released Wedneday. It's nothing nothing on their on their see. File corrections file. There's nothing on this guy likes. Having sex with men. Men Are our young boys. Now he finishes does he does his time. He gets out he could be in a neighborhood. The kids all over the place and nobody knows and this is how children get molested and young boys getting molested and it's you know they they need to consider the effects the overall effects of how we all prisoners how oh how we detain them how we keep them locked up and that the adverse human conditions or reactions from not from not having having something simple as a woman's tach or a just a family member offset right touch yeah to a conservative person you could say a that this is in doing something like that as in societies best and most of these guys get out eventually. So who do you WANNA turn back out to the streets right someone who's been through this nightmare or someone who paid his debt and is now out right right. What what would you rather have released back onto. You Know Normal Society Temple Yeah you yeah you want somebody who's going to prey on the weak and the vulnerable or you want somebody who's hat somewhat of a normal will existence questions that we need to ask just for the record to there are some hard cases in there need to be imprisoned. Nelia Yeah Oh man there was some there was some yeah I can remember some. Not I remember this one inmate who kill the lady in Los Angeles drove around with her for a week and a half in the trunk of her Car East L. her car letting her body decay in rot and and they think that he may have been having sex with the body after so yeah I read his see file in the counselor's office one day and it's like you're you're right right where you need to be and they always would encourage officers wreath. AC- files to know what kind of inmates you're dealing with. It'll it'll help you with your job and it did because you know okay. I I don't want to be stuck in the utility closet with this inmate right out of out of the site of the a gun coverage who knows and the rest of us don't want to be stuck on the same street arriver right yeah. They're no. There's some people oh that prisons were made for. That's that but you know what a lot of a lot of young black men that I seen locked up for years and years because you're selling marijuana or cracker whatever which the sentencing for crack doc was a lot different than powder cocaine but we all know that that's a whole different story right syncing disparities in America. That was his racist as anything. Coca- God Cocaine Bridge White Man's drug and crack is a ghetto draw right. What if you had to give a wild guess now what percentage we're talking about hard cases a second ago what percentage of the and I guess it would depend on the level of security of the prison John but what percentage of those people were like you were just talking about the ones who need to be in prison and there's really no hope form a lot of different circumstances I would say in the state of California and you know we have have a we have special security housing unit up at Pelican Bay and that's where we send those people don't go into general population of the worst the worst of the I is it a Pelican Bay California security housing units. That's those are the emanates they get like one hour of your time the day and then the other twenty three hours. They are basically locked up with minimal contact from any human being. What is the regular prisoner get. Oh general population you you know up at Lancaster. They had this thing called night yard. In the inmates lights come on and inmates to go after dark. You'll out on the yard and lift weights and run track and listen to music. Do whatever that's night yard. That was level three. They didn't have for level for they didn't have not yard but but Pelican Bay Pelican Bay. You don't get you know you get a you know have another one at Corcoran too. I think that's where Charles Manson was. He just died re not too long ago so this is just a single digit. Amount of the population is yeah I probably say three three to five percent who are in that category bet category of glad hi dear hair don't ever leave your hair. Don't don't don't be missing it count because we find find you but yeah. It's a and that's. I don't know that's kind of encouraging to know that that we don't have that many any you have that that mental criminality that probably nothing can can ever change some some people. I thank you for your perspective on all of this. You're not just talking about this stuff. You're actually running for office. Would he running for. I'm running for State Senate Twenty First Senate district which includes includes the Antelope Valley Santa Korea Valley and part of the Victor Valley Victorville Area Santa Clara part of Santa Cruz the area all of the Antelope Valley Palmdale Lancaster and if people want to help out your campaign there what what do they do. I just got my F- PPC number which allows me to take donations they can go to my Stevie for state Senate facebook page. That's where I'll be getting out all all of my rhetoric and my platform while you're a man of very diverse experience and you thought through this stuff I wish you the best of luck and thank you very much for coming on point of inquiry honored to be here. Thank you for listening. Listening point of inquiry is a production of the center for inquiry the Center for inquiry five. Oh One C. Three charitable nonprofit organization whose vision is a world in which evidence signed ain't compassion rather than superstition pseudoscience or prejudice guide public policy. You can visit us at point of inquiry dot. Org there you can listen to all of PEO is archived. Episodes were available on itunes. Google play spotify and your favorite podcast App of choice special things to Pamela Costlo Ostlund of cost Lynn Law located in the Miracle Mile in Los Angeles she does business and Intellectual Property Law and helped us out with some of the valuable intellectual sure property information for this program. Thank you and see you again in two weeks

California Los Angeles officer America Folsom State Prison Mill Creek California State Prison California Department of Corre Lancaster US Marine Corps Los Angeles County State Prison cocaine Steve Hill Steve Right California Correctional Instit Saint Louis Mississippi River Trump
Tell Christy I Love Her

Ear Hustle

47:59 min | 1 year ago

Tell Christy I Love Her

"Ends Language and descriptions of graphic violence that may not be appropriate for all listener's discretion is advised a very ritualized. Hey this is Kristie Jojoba -cially I'm the Acting Chief of External Affairs for the California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation the following episode of Your Hustle Aftermath State of preparation and when I got in that car I was ready to go you're now and more than a few feverish podcast script editing sessions for twenty percent off your first purchase of this essential life tool visit native deodorant dot com and though I won't be giving up natives refreshing cucumber mint yoder and you can't make me I'm a little bit tempted to try their seasonal sweet almond and honey sent and use Promo Code Ear Hustle Twenty at checkout it's tricky to spell so here you go native D. E. O. D. O. R. A. N. T. DOT COM Promo code because none of native sent smell artificial like some other brands native products are made from ingredients found in my favorite place nature like coconut oil shale which also takes me back to this delicious Bach Lavar that used to magically appear at certain holidays when I was growing up but I digress either deodorant choice is the right one hustled to zero for twenty percent off your first order as always and on behalf of the entire Era Sel team thanks for listening Pat Save the people comes out every Tuesday check it out and subscribe wherever you get your podcast I'm Jewish apparel exactly the producer of ear hustle and this episode is brought to you by native here in Boston where Radio Topa H. Q. is located the fall is upon us hey butter and tapioca starch and importantly there the odor and support trust me I've tested my native deodorant through bike commutes and some light mountain climbing piled in the car and headed out to my beat on our way out there we received a call of shots fired in the area of Brooklyn Madison Pretty sadly routine calls Clinton Smith it's a unique look at what's happening in the world with special focus on overlook news stories including the criminal justice system and policies that impact people of color the shotgun what am I gonNa do if I'm on a burglary call and you know I find a suspect crawling through a window what am I going to do it was a perpetual constant they're also weekly one on one interviews with ray and special guests from singer Songwriter John Legend California's own speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and congresswoman maxine waters dry firing against the target. I would run scenarios in my head in spare moments you know about well what happens if some guy for that area we were heading northbound on Madison and we saw a light-colored Pinto with you heads up through the rear view mirror found in two ear hustle from PR X.. Radio Tokyo I'm Alan Woods and Nigel poor on this episode of violent night and its decades long I was sleeping my car is late at night and as I'm sleeping I hear a tap on the driver's side window that woke me up in from crooked media hosted by educator activist Deray mckesson todd say to people features and incredible crew of Activists Britney Pack Net Samson Your Way and ear yells I've gotTa gone and as soon as he said that Jason Broke Free we lit up the car told the dispatcher where we were at and then I had my trainee approached the car because I wanted to see how how did hey before we get back to the show we wanna tell you about a great podcast hide saved people it's a weekly podcast remember began running north through the ours I started Jason Jason turned around and ran a jumped the fence clash of light and then I feel nothing Tom Morgan was thirty hard I saw Jason trying to force his way into a house thousand he'll run behind he was kind of a dilemma I didn't see a gun in his it comes out of the alley and points a gun at Mytalk what am I going to do it five grocery or a liquor store you know getting a coke or something then somebody personally the proper spray pepper spray me telling me to stop existing he was trying to arrest me while he was floating on the salt water bed or something I had no sensation and then suddenly I could move I said hands my partner and said he had a gun so I wasn't entirely sure that my partner hadn't gotten the gun away from him my other problems why did P his hand my pocket I put out an inhaler and then the next pocket he didn't reach any tapped it and he said it's a gun over sprayed pellets like a shotgun and a bunch of those pellets were now lodged in Tom's neck a few also lodged against his spine and paralyzed him momentarily. By the time I leaned back up again he's gone right up looked up and saw Jason standing over me a reached into my best pocket where I kept my backup weapon pull it out and pointed at him Guy I hit him in the head with it kind of you know staggers back a little bit comes back and punches me right dead center of the eyes I fall back nine and had been a cop in Bakersfield for thirteen years that night he was on patrol with his trainee Dave Jason Samya was seventeen years old he was a runaway and I took the gun in my pocket turned around put it to his neck and put the trigger there was a bright was I had no idea who was in house behind him I can't use deadly force I've got to get close to him to use some sort of physical force impact weapons Mesa wanted to kill him so that's how I was thinking like he was trying to kill me I'm Kilian I grabbed her him and put his gun to his head and put a trigger was he unconscious and I was laying there and I remember being very frustrated because I couldn't fight back and hit I was conscious as if I was like this point no he was still alive he was watching me do this to him that's crazy yes he wasn't struggling I mean he was somebody else little you know just trying to concentrate and just got every breath was able to take as the ambulance is backing up struggling with me I seen his baton had failed close by me and I thought about this baton hitting even running you know realize I still had this gun on me homeless sleeping in his car and now he has shot a cop fired his gun point blank in the Tom Snake The gun was four ten caliber derringer election of telling Dave to tell Christy I loved her for remember thinking in my hand turn it around pointed at me and pulled the trigger he was unfamiliar with a weapon so the weapon didn't discharge he racks the slide around enough seeing that he was alive pointing Nick Weapon Emmy are ran over to him by hitting a couple of times in the face nasty gun from it it was like about midnight and I had just gotten home from a class that I was in college and just to sum about to get in bed my doorbell rings doug he's a friend of ours who was a sheriff's deputy he's standing there in uniform and I just start panicking I know something's wrong things this is Tom's wife Christie nothing could happens midnight when your doorbell rings so I grabbed a gun and I went to the front door and I saw sorry that's just a really horrible image for me at this point during our interview with them Tom got up win over Christie and put his arm around her whispering and shot the last thing I heard he's still alive you need to get dress we need to go immediately when I got to the emergency room that night they were working on Tom they adventure turned looking it was a sheriff's officer so we ask the scooby step out the car when I stepped out the car was police telling me to put my hands on the car got up I got around to the front of the building officers found me actually Dave I think was the I wanted to come across me I have this it looks like maybe he could even be alive if he looked like that wish so swollen it was like twice the size of normal he looked looked horrible with Tom I know it I know I know it so we have a dead bolt on the door that has to be unlocked with this key like hangs up here on a nail yeah that that that is always just the doors open up no he was watching me trying to killing thank you were so weak I in what was going through your mind China killing we were trying to kill really let me go in to see him and when I walked in he was not conscious but his head and the the cameras shooting down the corridor and on both sides of the corridor lined up all my co workers and you know story you read a lot about this incident right Yep and there was a quote from Tom About seen TV news segment about what had happened and when he said really stuck with me casting for a cop and she's petite seems fragile but with a lot of intensity. Tom Carries a lot of guilt about how this all affected Christie when we were doing research for this does that one more time restricted I bought a stick like a board that was nearby that I felt and I took st the House that was parked in front of police chase me the policemen around the back way to cut me off when I got around in the back mm-hmm sometime not too much later you saw something that was on the news and you saw your wife walking down taken aback and it seemed like the most beautiful description of love to me and then you it's the one time you kind of mentioned a what is you know to every single breath I took on the way to the hospital is like the last one I just spent the time into hockey ready sorry she had to go through that ops out a fresh round goes any points back at me and pulls the trigger again round still doesn't go off because he still hasn't engaged safety the cocking mechanism etes there's very little it's motivated me more strongly nobody after that happened because Christie didn't sign up for that yeah I when I read that I was really you to be a better human being than that image and that thought and yet I blindly went off to work every day knowing that could cause that when I left I always promised her I would be okay and I had to reach up there to get it and I drop it about I can't even hold on to it I just dropping I can't I can't get it in the thing Christie and Tom had been married for twenty three years. He's big strapping with a serious mustache it's like he's out of central report him I was intimidated for sure they had Tom Shirt bat he was shot in on a post turn it I I'm like you know it feels like my fingers should just won't work and I finally get the door open in Doug Hudson and tells me that you know that Thomas Blue Tom was in critical care four months then he recovered at home for about a year before returning to work and he if a different outcome and it's about Christie it's not about you I mean that's the kind of wonderful and terrible thing about all of this Jason Samuel was found guilty before he was sentenced Christie got up and read her victim impact statement is said in part quote one of those people testifying against Jason was Tom but not heard Tom testified at the trial was my first time ever nor who does man when I watched that I thought but for just a millimeter here a half second there in she might have been along like that couldn't go back to regular cop work so instead he started training other cops Jason was taken into custody the night of the shooting I live and that's the image that I have when I think about my responsible that felt like a broken promise when I had to watch that anybody year later he was on trial the courtroom was crowded with Tom's colleagues I was nervous when I seen all the police that entered Samuel was a proponent of crime and violence in today's society and a very real threat to anyone with whom he comes in contact I hope the sentence he receives today I lied it was emergency sign glowing and I remember thinking okay I've done my job I've got this far it's it's up to the first ten years were heavy the violence you know a bit it totally destroyed my sense of security us Tom had been sitting in a courtroom with the prosecutors doing a whole trial but Jason hadn't recognized him from the night of the crime then he was there those ten years laying on the couch watching TV just not doing anything I mean nothing not eating new remember l. just I I wouldn't even leave the house I mean for the first ten years I hardly ever let my house what was what was a typical day like for you those tonight one thousand nine years to life I was in such a and I was afraid that one of his gang banger buddies was going to come by and finish off the job or exactly right it was so personal and I was so angry hit chasing I wanted to kill him myself wanted him dead that he had learned in the academy after the third stab wound went into me I pushed him away he fell backwards after and fire my gun the first round went through his chest into uh a DART DEEPS BOT I I couldn't even see outside that and how long did that dark darkness last for you skinny I got just checking out I just kind of stopped living probably getting shot periods is bad but deliver he sprung up as if nothing had happened he was on a high dose of methamphetamine started to run across the street the wrong because it was like fifty polices that came in and allied am you know what's going on there car and go to the next one and you know as the household and I've got twelve calls backed up and somebody starts telling me all of like their problems what I would tell people sometimes it's if you don't see this it wouldn't hurt by it wasn't anything nobody can say to make me feel any worse to already have felt so all this already expected to be disciplined at least talked to afterwards you know you really need to get better I was given a metal Tom to everything that was going on around me I just wanted it over just wanted to start my time Jason was sentenced stir or platform or something and it was all bloody and when people got up when when they spoke shirkers right there next to him Tom was starting to have misgivings about what the job was doing to him and his colleagues my approach to my job at one point in my career was when I'd get into Adam as he turned the corner I found him taking his last breath in the alley about maybe a quarter mile away from in France and and walking down the middle of the goal you know facing away from me you know with its arms crossed like this is Christie would make him rethink the choices he made a failed it was she was right about everything she said in that impacts Eddie ebbing as those doing the job he began to become very cynical about the people you're dealing with and I mean it's just an odd I know about something that happened to Tom ten years earlier in Nineteen eighty-seven Tom got stabbed while making an arrest he says he didn't follow the procedure for securing a suspect ah fired a twice more before minute across the street he stumbled got backup ran down to the end of the block and I fired the last six rounds like you're just you know going from one disaster to the next I can totally see why that would be necessary but that's one of the saddest oss defender from the CO creator of narcos comes the anticipate a new EPIX Original Series Godfather of Harlem starring Forest Whitaker as into Reclaim Harlem and the American dream by any means necessary godfather of Harlem Airing Sundays only on ethics for seizure in essence yes I feel my failure contributed to that might be unable to take him into custody legendary crime boss Bumpy Johnson set in the nineteen sixties the tumultuous worlds of crime and civil rights collide when bumpy returns from Alcatraz on a mission get the channel or get the APP Marsha that seems I think that you'll find in the heart of most cops that's how they approach their job you feel much more nine hundred ninety eight Jason started serving time in high desert state prison in California and over the Lucien to your problem on my gun belt then you call the wrong person I just need to get the job done call taken care of so I can get back in when we get back we'll hear why Tom said this to us in many ways I feel that the shooting when I got shot that's the best thing that ever happened to me position to be in were you know disastrous seem to be like commonplace and they in turn you know destroy other people's lives I mean I'd I'd have no doubt of that I mean I could kind of palpably feel my humanity the whole time I was going to trial and I study was another attorney because I didn't know what he looked like and I noticed he had a raspy voice because I shot him in neck the process that I went through it was almost like every day preparing for a battle I had a slow at target up in the basement and I'd spend five minutes drawing it you to understand what things voted the way they did on April twenty four nineteen ninety seven the night Jason Shot Tom this useful officers like CEO's with mustaches it reminded me of him think about him we had this connection shot that's me Nice things I've heard in a long time to me that's heartbreaking I I wonder about the toll that takes on an individual after ten years after twenty years or destroys from pimple news jason found himself thinking about this man right I thought about it ever since I've seen him in the courtroom a had seen other got it 'cause we like bonded forever life or death experience that we had together that that's going to be here forever I wonder Oh probably feels like he got shot in the arm that would have been okay but to be shot in the neck was so personal that seemed so personally you're you're more of the first incident occurred and I have to put a point so he died yes he did day and you're saying that you feel responsible because you didn't follow the take his life in a in a very brutal way even though it was a negative connection no matter what I was connected to this person and I wanted to know how he burmese deal after all these years yeah can you talk about that more what is that connection like marriage kind of us when you're gangster doing well and you know get past everything that I've done to him and I didn't know anything what was going on with him and he probably didn't know anything the Jason was transferred to San Quentin in two thousand fourteen in two thousand sixteen he went up in front of the Parole Board for the first time I was radio Tom had come to the parole hearing prepared he brought the same shirt that was featured so prominently at Jason's trial the shirt that I was wearing that night is and what about your siblings who took care of your siblings taking care of my siblings from seven to ten how'd you take care of them by cutting lawns of verbal and physical abuse of and that's doing because he was using drugs so his mom on you never know who's going to show up at your parole hearing for Jason Tom showed up it was the first time they'd seen each other since he was sentenced are yes was there any physical or emotional abuse when you were growing up from your parents will never from our dad because he was encased in glass and it's just like it was when it was cut off me it's covered with blood pieces of tissue my pen and my badge my name tag and L. in drugs or in prison my school basically this hoping that I can eat that half oud in house okay answers and he's a little overweight and he's the last thing from intimidating Leparoux he hangar to come strutting in but instead you know this kind of down trodden thirty eight year old man who works in the laundry whereas glass but then when he walked in I remember you know right now my notepad you know not what I expected have is expecting this puffed out tough you know mean gang we asked Jason to talk a bit about his upbringing when I was younger my mother was addicted to drugs and my father was co-host New York asked him about this how did you feel when you sorta opposite you shot at Your Robo hearing a felt guilty for what I've done I remember listening to him talk about his life just to hear his story and hear him tell it with such of course I had to see him I hadn't seen him in at this time almost nineteen years so I wanted to see what he looked like he looked at older really around kind of medium to later and then he really was like that but my mother she was very custody of Jason when he was ten and he went to live in a group home from there he moved into a foster home for a while and then ended up living with an aunt and like a lot of young to him I feel Shane and I just wanted to tell him I was sorry now I seen him but they were told me not to look at him and kind of openness and willingness in thinking Oh my God this is just tragic toward the end of the hearing Tom you would expect the human being to react given his training and environment I was doing exactly the same thing reacting exactly how rocket ships on the same trajectory from different directions he'd been raised and trained in an environment that caused him to react exactly like the notepads still in the pocket I brought that with me I was going to argue that he be denied parole because I kind of thought that was my responsibility another gang This more organized gang so I looked at him by the time he was fourteen Jason was at the first parole hearing he started to cry and show this genuine emotion like see how deeply that moved him and I remember after about food and went to the local store and Bob Rae Baloney Cheese took it home my brothers and sisters say you are like the parent officer This officer continued speak with dreamlike human being you know a conversation about what happened and when Jason was telling that story that really stuck with Tom it was about an experienced Jason had in San Quentin key talked about a group that he'd been involved in worry retired police officer like me Jason saw cops being rough and unfair with the people in his neighborhood whenever like the police never respected him to meet I was trying to me it was almost inevitable when it happened news they talk in detail about prisoners life and the circumstances that might have led him into crime and Jason's parole here was the first time that Tom Heard about how Jason grew up in a gang so I hung these guys that was around my age a little older I was getting into the tension that wasn't getting from home feeling like I was been accepted the feel blessed that happened for me I don't need to forgive him if he wants it you know if that's something that would be a value him I would give it he looked the same he's gray gray mustache now he had gray hair so you looked at a lot older from what I remember my sentencing to speak I told Jason I don't think I need to forgive you because I understand what happened and I would like to Jason but incarcerated people cannot have any contact with their victims it's prohibited there's a workaround though but as a process there's something called the so the first crew that accepted be who I was they didn't care that I was poor or my mother was on drugs or that was a foster kid he will do anything to help me get out of prison he wanted to come see me ns I was shocked like I was so in shock and disbelief you know what if I were to speak with him and agreed to talk with him a year and a half later Jason was up for parole for a second time Tom showed up again process sometimes the communication will be in letters but occasionally they meet in person once a victim to size they wanted meet their offender and they have help you I would like to extend that offer to help you because it's a priori he couldn't even look at me while I'm saying this he's telling the commissioners how several weeks on May Eleventh Two Thousand Eighteen Tom Christine Martina the woman who I'm crying I'm talking about House I wow what does happen in some laze in happy white the offender dialogue it's a restorative justice program were victims meet offenders both the victim and the offender worked with a mediator to facilitate this very delicate really was I kept getting surprised over the next so a support person is recommended to ease this potentially traumatic process sitting in bed and I'm going Christina I'm trying to figure out I ran the dialogue went to see Jason in San Quentin a CNN fan crew was there to record what happened I didn't feel nervous I to be a support person you know and I look at her and she goes well what about me it just it took my breath away I mean up to that point I pretty sure if he walked in the door and she had a gun pull the trigger on it I mean happily but in that moment I was so proud of her and a bit ashamed of myself that I didn't appreciate how strong she the push lan more I used not doors ask them the cut they learn for five dollars for the front five dollars for the back and why would you do with that money serving went away and I asked him for her not told him I was sorry Sir had come in and had a conversation with Jason and Jason when he told this officer what he had done that he'd shot you know another conflicted he told the board that he trusted them to make the right decision the board denied Jason's parole there was something else that Jason said at the hearings Tom had arrived at the hearing intending to argue flat out that the border should deny James Perot by the end he was much my peers the older guys was I got this at this from them it was more like a father figure there at the parole here Jason's said his gang was happy Christie was watching all of this on a TV monitor that CNN had set up just outside the chapel she was tom support person but she the mediator they also need to identify support person and I think the logic is this is going to be a really hard experience and you don't know how hard the meeting is going to be not having to wonder they think this person is at least sorry for what they did that would mean so much when she was sitting watching that video of him talking to me and meet this man when she came out the wrong she came out walking real fast towards me and I stood up hands behind my back because I it was the biggest moment of my life right now to sit across from a man I try to kill in such a fashion and almost be honest with you almost chicken you love me felt compassion Nuffield I felt all the senses I think you feel from Terms feelings may have changed a lot but the parole boards and Jason was denied parole again. Tom Wanted to be in contact didn't want to be in the room with Jason she didn't think she was ready for it one of the first things that I noticed about Jason was how remorseful he was one of the first actual day of meeting and that's when all the nerves came in and and like I don't know I was ready to do something like that hearing thinking wow you know somebody he doesn't even know could have that kind of emotional impact on him you know what if I were to do the same thing that is really going on like this is really happening right now can really grasp but what was

Jason Jason Thomas Blue Tom Tom Shirt Tom Morgan California Department of Corre Christie Clinton Smith Boston Kristie Jojoba Nancy Pelosi burglary Acting Chief of External Affai Bach Lavar Doug Hudson D. E. O. D. O. R. A. N. maxine waters Madison
NPR News: 01-18-2021 12AM ET

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NPR News: 01-18-2021 12AM ET

"Live from npr news. I'm nora raum. President elect joe biden. Says he wants to deliver one hundred million doses of covid nineteen vaccine within his first one hundred days in office. Dr anthony found she. The nation's leading infectious disease expert. Says that is absolutely doable. Speaking on nbc's meet the press found. She says there are two new. Vaccines being developed. That could be approved for use in weeks. He said the best way to beat the viruses for more vaccinations as well as mask wearing and avoiding crowds. The hard rock stadium in miami. Florida has just finished. Its first full weekend distributing vaccinations. Mike janko is a public information officer for the state he says the site has been used to fight the pandemic for months. The site has been in operation since march when we started with the testing. It's expanded we've changed. We've adapted he says more than a thousand doses were distributed to healthcare workers and nursing home residents on sunday alone while white. President trump hasn't been seen in public lately. Vice president mike pence has been making the rounds. Saying goodbye he visited fort drum army base in new york sunday his last public appearance before he leaves office wednesday. Npr's brian man reports president. Donald trump still hasn't acknowledged his defeat in november's election that speaking to a crowd of mass soldiers pence sounded a more traditional note of gratitude and public service and as our time in office draws to a close. Allow me to thank you for the privilege of serving as your vice president. It's been the greatest honor. My life pence made no mention of the capital riot or the pandemic but he acknowledged that country has experienced a hard year. The day will come when we put these challenging times in the past and emerge stronger and better than ever penn said. The trump administration deserves praise for boosting military spending and soldier. Pay brian man. Npr news in upstate. New york state houses and washington. Dc are preparing for possible. Violence ahead of the inauguration on wednesday. But it's been mostly quiet around the country including utah state capital salt lake city. John reid from member station k. U. e. r. reports most of the twenty or so protesters gathered at the state capital sunday belong to the boo-boys an extremist group. That has advocated for civil war about five trump supporters waved flags but they were all far outnumbered by spectators reporters and hundreds of police. Officers national guardsmen jolyon. Henning happened to pass by on her bike and expressed support for peaceful gatherings part of being an american is the right to protest but to also do it under the law he now and not violently most protesters left after a few hours law enforcement agencies. Plan to stick around for the next few days until political temperatures cool for npr news. I'm john reid in salt lake city. This is npr news russian. Opposition leader alexei navalny return to russia sunday for the first time since he was poisoned their last summer he was promptly arrested. Authorities claim he violated parole terms from twenty fourteen conviction and will be held until the court rules on. His detention volley has been recovering from nerve agent poisoning in germany. Which he blames on the kremlin troops in guatemala fired. Tear-gas groups of migrant sunday to keep them from advancing further into the country as they attempt to reach the us. Maria martin reports an estimated. Nine thousand migrants have now entered. What a mullah. From honduras watermelon officials are calling it an invasion of their country's national serenity. They're asking honduras to take action to keep their citizens from crossing overwhelmed. Watermelon border guard said at first not used tear gas on the crowds. They said there were too many families with children. But this changed when security forces in riot gear fired. Tear gas on a crowd of migrants on a highway outside the border town of by the on in the province of cheeky moolah national and international rights groups are calling on what a mala mexico honduras and the united states to respect the human rights of migrants for npr news martin in empty. Or what the mala music producer phil spector has died. The california department of corrections says he died saturday of natural causes at a hospital. He was eighty-one spector was serving nineteen years in prison. For the murder of actress. Lana clarkson in two thousand and three. I'm nora raum npr news.

npr news nora raum President elect joe biden Dr anthony hard rock stadium Mike janko President trump fort drum army brian man Npr news infectious disease mike pence jolyon salt lake city nbc Donald trump alexei navalny Npr John reid miami