20 Episode results for "California Academy Of Sciences"

Peter Raven - Driven by Nature

The Science Show

25:10 min | 3 months ago

Peter Raven - Driven by Nature

"This is the sign show on our in where we often visit. Great museums labs and botanical gardens in that last category of gardens. There is through a pathetic garden in sydney where we were last week. Our oldest scientific institution this cue gardens in london and also in the top five globally according to me anyway is the missouri botanical garden and its legendary director for some decades was talked to peter raven and he still director emeritus now. He's written a memoir driven by nature and here is is driven ever speaking. Yes from st louis missouri. Peter you are certainly driven. The thing that amazes me as you driven from such a young age collecting insects. How come well. I think really it happens at a lot of people will be collecting insects and looking at them at an early age. In my case it happened. Because i found a book about them and what it had to say was so interesting that at the age of eight i couldn't help rushing out into our garden to see what was there. It was on a section of the dunes in san francisco that had been built on only a few decades earlier and there were plenty of them there. Lots of interest and lots to keep me going. You didn't just rush out. You annotated them you took notes. You became almost instinctively scientific. Did you not well. After my first trip what. I saw the next trip proved to be too much without recording and keeping track of what i was seeing. What was a huge impetus very early and very important for everybody to note was my joining a student section group at the california academy of sciences. The museum in san francisco founded in the same decade by the way as the natural history museum in sydney and it had a student section a place where students could go and learn more about the topics that interested them and be tested on it and do writing and kind of get into a professional attitude and what proved to be especially important for me. Was it afforded access to the botany and entomology and other kinds of departments in the museum. Where i could get to know real curator's and see what they were up to. You just shows you. How important museums really are. But i'm going to read a little bit a few lines from your book. Pay seventy five actually and you say. Many botanists first become interested in the field of botany as a particular branch of science and then come to appreciate the plants as the beautiful and interesting organisms. That they for me. It was the opposite. From the beginning i found plants to be marvels of loveliness pattern texture and color. Down to the minute detail. Then you say you related to plants more as a lover then as a scientist now. This is interesting plants. Just sit there whereas it's ex move around. How come you fell in love like that. Well they form patterns that. I could understand in work. They not only were beautiful and interesting but their distribution patterns and their characteristics and all were well enough known so they could be laid out in particular books and then once that was done looking for them and finding them was always a pleasure. Always interesting and you would know when you've found one that you haven't seen before or when it was outside of its range and of course that's not really true for insects where for many groups. We don't know nearly enough. Make that kind of puzzle solving or puzzle setting up possible. I was fascinated with plants. By the time. I saw what we'd now call a super bloom in california which was a huge bloom of the annuals. That are so abundant in california western australia across the south coast of course has a mediterranean summer dry climate but not the rich representation of annuals that they have in california and chile and in the mediterranean region itself. Let me ask you about some of the ideas that you developed when you actually very quickly became a professional scientist and you look at something like co evolution seeing how these creatures and aspects of wildlife kind of grow together in an ecological sense. What does it mean paula. Alec and i were sitting around the lunch table at stanford and we realized that a lot was known about what kinds of food plants caterpillars eight and it turns out that caterpillars some groups of butterflies feed on very narrow groups of plants and others feed vary widely than narrow groups have plants turn out to be manufacturing their own poisons poisons that will stop most kinds of insect larvae from eating them and let those that can eat them eat them they step onto that evolutionary plateau start eating the poisonous ones without harming themselves and we have a co evolutionary stepwise progression. That as far as i know was essentially an original idea when we came up with it and it was fascinating explaining the whole wide range of very well known. Plant food choices that butterflies made ball. Erlich yes i wonder whether our listeners remember him but in nineteen sixty eighty wrote the book the population bomb and matters of population really affected you as well as no not botanical thing so much as a human problem that we have what was the impact really when the book came out in nineteen sixty eight well impact was huge but of course people like to get on with their own business and deal with their own likes and daily doings rather than they do to worry about the future global footprint network which is a website. I invite people to look up with enthusiasm footprint network shows that we're using about one hundred and seventy five percent and much more than the total ability of the world to manufacturer on us as dana basis. Then there is and population has gone from around three billion at the time. Paul and anne wrote that book up to nearly eight billion now and it's on its way to ten billion. Most people have thought about the problem carefully think that they're earth could at best on a sustainable basis support about two three billion people about a quarter of its present population. So we're going to have to do something. Pruning their palmas. Correct absolutely correct but ahead of his time. People prefer to think that magic will come along and save them. It's not necessary to worry about. How many of them are but in doing that. They forget that if people lived with the kind of standard of living that we have in the united states australia it would take something like four copies of the planet that were on to support us in other words. We're way beyond our limits. That was an extremely important idea. Very early expressed on to ask you about how it is that you came so quickly to espouse. Some of those almost political idea certainly political ideas but about the global role of science and understanding nature. Hey you one minute. A collector of plants in the label of you know in a very traditional way. What made you open your eyes and take off. While i was following several directions at once i had very wide interest. Of course. I started out with plants in california. And then the sixties came. During the whole sixties. I was at stanford with paul and anne thinking about what be happening. By the end of the sixties we began to get the first in claims that massive extension might be taking place not just lions and tigers and pangolins. I rolled along with it. I was very very upset by the wild politics in the middle of the sixties which were completely difficult time to work consistently in an academic field. I was on the faculty at stanford. I went for a year's sabbatical and new zealand working on wella weeds and new zealand and australia. Getting acquainted with your part of the world and that together with especially with urging from eric godly. Who is then head of the botany division in christ church and a very dear man and good friend to think of the world much more widely so when the opportunity came to go to the missouri botanical garden in nineteen seventy one. I realize that although it hadn't done it yet it had a worldwide collection at an even more important library and it'd be a good staging base for looking at plants all over the world. I started doing that. We had never conducted research on a sustained basis outside of the united states. Before i got to the garden in nineteen seventy-one although we had specimens we'd gotten by exchange for many of those places and we were active in panama where we had the canal zone and where we were getting ready to send back to the states for our cultural displays but i gradually found ways by expanding that joy and pleasure that the people in saint louis found with the garden education to raise the budget and was able to hire more and more people was also a time when the government was supporting people so over the next twenty years we were able to increase the staff at the from about two or three scientists to over fifty and working in places in latin america where there weren't other people working in africa especially in madagascar fantastically interesting new caledonia. Eventually i co edited a fifty volume flora of china which was a great cooperative project gave me a worldwide view that headline lent onto the realization. That things weren't so good all around the world. I believe that you should not try to do. Inventory work on plants anywhere or any other kind of organism. Unless you're gonna live in that country and really get to know them popping out on. Expeditions doesn't do it very well and of course australia shows that really well. How few things one funds on a quick trip through and how many one can find by settling down and really putting your mind to it saying the rainforests in northern queensland along the way then that made it very clear that the kind of dreary things paul had been saying in the nineteen sixties. Were coming true too. Many people too much restriction of women and children about a billion women and children not really an franchised in their communities and able to contribute their brains and their talents to improving things too little attention to via logical diversity in the sixties. We probably would have guessed that. Were about two million kinds of organisms than bacteria and now guests there probably twenty million or more kinds of organisms other than bacteria the vast majority of them never having even been seen and unfortunately maybe twenty percent of them according to scientific organizations like the international union for the conservation of nature and natural resources iucn and others maybe twenty percent of them endanger of extension in the next twenty thirty years and perhaps double that by the end of the century in other words. We're likely to be the last people to see a lot of them. I want to ask you about the botanical gardens. Because you see when you joined in nineteen seventy one there already. The biggest practically in north america. And now i would say there are five great botanic gardens and missouri is clearly there. How did you establish it so well from a good standing start to one of the greatest in history basically by realizing that the supportive of botanical garden comes from the people that live in its community and its municipality and its area so the major institutions in sydney the support comes mainly from sydney some of the federal institutions in canberra. The institution may come from federal taxes but in general institutions get their support locally and i realized that very clearly at the garden built it up so that people in saint louis would really appreciate it and that intern after ten years after having run the membership up from eighteen hundred to over ten thousand and the interest of greatly gave us the ability to gain tax support from the people of saint louis and the surrounding county and then to go on expanding but a botanical garden scientific descendants historically of the herbal gardens that they had in medical schools to learn how to cure people. A botanical garden is always combined show education exhibition with science and research and then in recent years is i'm saying more and more and more with conservation. Zoos have come to the same end. But they've done it by an entirely different route. Carnivals to more and more scholarly organizations organizations with research departments and then to conservation talked about pulled erlich. But another person. You had quite a lot to do with lynn margulis. An extraordinary person famous for guira. And lastly for some brother extraordinary attitudes and the world trade center not being knocked down by the plane and so on but what she contributed in terms of your own field was to show that some of the organ nells implants in other words. The plastic in other words the basis. Since this used to be free living creatures microorganisms. Could you explain what she actually found. And what you thought. At the time of what she said that had been proposed by a russian botanist in the nineteen twenties but largely ignored as macro molecular science and our understanding of the way it sells really functioned grew in the fifties and sixties. It became perfectly obvious. Said clara were very clearly derived from blue-green algae so-called which are kind of bacteria that has the same kind of photosynthesis and that might oh qendra which carry out. Oxidation in cells were derived from other groups bacteria and she showed that and brought it back and of course when she did people laughed at it but i was writing a body tax than i didn't laugh at it for the very simple reason that it was science and it made perfect sense to me and i adopted in the botany book and therefore it was one of her first adopters giving papers on in various places and building up the idea which is now universally accepted because it was ride. She was very bright and she was out there very early. And i always did what i could to support her. Yeah what about china. Now china and australia or having a bit of a difficult time at the moment and in recent times in the last few days of course you've had the climate meeting. How would you having been born in china sea. Our relations developing on a broader sense. I've not only was born in china. But i've been there. Dozens and dozens of times been a member of their academies and other honorary positions air. For a very long time. I worked a lot to open up. Scientific interchange with china in the late seventies when the cultural revolution was winding down and into the eighties and was one of those who helped to get the binational flaura effort to produce the florida going the multinational effort forests near unfortunately china's been on an incredible drive to be the best tab everything to be tops and molecular biology and every other branch of science and in some cases. They've gone beyond the pale in spying on other people and bringing things back and doing that. It's a very difficult situation but the facts always remained the same as you just outlined them for russia. Cooperation is best. If people believe things like our unlamented president trump did make america. Great again and do that at all costs and it's all competition and science just becomes risk for the mail. You grab the facts as you can grab them and you use them. For whatever political benefit or greedy self fulfillment you can find where you suddenly made missouri great again or even greater than it used to be one tickling thing that comes up now and then and that is because it's the place where monsanto flourishes monsanto now bear and you've been perfectly straightforward in allowing them to have an institute named after them. Have you ever worried about monsanto's reputation vis-a-vis the kind of reputation the garden has and you have not really because they're not uh and we're not them. Monsanto at the government's request may jd orange during the vietnam war. Does that make them evil. I don't think so does making certain things that were not known to be poisonous. Turned out to be poisonous later. Does that make me. But i don't think so does using molecular biology to improve crops and varieties of crops. Make them evil. Well no in my mind. It makes greenpeace evil for allowing hundreds of millions of people to starve in africa. Because they have this totally unscientific notion that genetically modified crops is going to make them poisonous in hurt you in some unspecified way that despite the fact that hundreds of millions of people and billions of farm animals have been using these things for twenty to thirty years without a single case. Some harm ever being reported and really dangerous. We don't know what they're gonna do to great way to raise money if you're an active organization but anyway what i'm saying is i think monsanto is a very mixed case. Are they evil. I don't think so. Would monsanto make something that was poisonous and pass it out to you. That they knew is poisonous. Seems very deathl-. It's not a very profitable line to take. Is it so. I prefer to believe that they've made products. Put them out improved crops and some have not worked out some of worked out most fall somewhere in between now you and your book with wonderful essay. Final chapter on the problems. We face climate obviously and by diversity which most people have vague idea. We have lots of species and and that's a good thing. Why is it a good thing. Why is there a crisis and by diversity. At the moment the living world into which human beings evolved as one member the living world the global ecosystem is made up entirely of the interactions of organisms. Our ability to live in the world depends on those interactions. Those interactions in turn depend upon the way species. Interact with one another. If one gets completely out of hand as human beings have or as people have shown in experiments in test tubes the others can be knocked off for a while and then they come back but to keep a balance of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to have built up the oxygen in the atmosphere at twenty percent which is what keeps us alive to control local climate to do all the other things that make our lives possible that depends entirely on the interactions between ourselves and other kinds of organisms. And that's spins right on to show you. Why organisms biodiversity becoming extinct as bad. It's simply if you pull it enough of them out of a global ecosystem it collapses that tends to be what's happening with climate change at present. We're about one point one degree celsius above the preindustrial base. We're headed for one point five by the end of this decade which many people call the point of no return nations the us and china as you mentioned recently taken a try on this are hoping to keep it in bands. But they're showing more interest in going on with short-term profitability than with long term survival of civilization. And if we don't get a hold of it. Danny goes onto pretty predictable. Leading two point three to two point seven degrees celsius at which case there will be widespread migration away from wasted agricultural lands. Widespread loss of biological diversity collapsed because systems and certainly general collapse of what we call civilization back to levels. That we wouldn't wanna see again now. Can we do anything about it. Sure we can do plenty. We can pay attention. We can act like we were given brands in. Have them in our heads and we can think about things rather than just think about what we're gonna do tomorrow or how we can make more money at work if we do that if we take car on consumption seriously if we do our best to make sustainable if we empower women if we cut back on things that cause global warming well then we'll be making the world a better place in the more of that we do the better place. It will be people going to say. Well it's also awful. Why bother. let's just give up. Well no that would assume the outcome would be pure a or b and. It's nothing like that. It's somewhere in between and what the world will be when my granddaughter is. My edge depends entirely on how seriously we take. Its dilemma now. How strongly we individual are willing to care about it. What kind of international understanding. We're willing to have with one another to try to really use what we know to make the world a better place through caring for one another. There's lots that we could do. And i pray that we will do it. Thank you so much. Peter very kind just a matter of interest. I've got a final note at the bottom of my scruffy piece of paper. It says mayflower. Did you really come from a family. That was on the mayflower. So did my wife had from stephen hopkins who first came to north american. Sixteen away trying to rescue the colony at new plymouth. And then came over on the mayflower. And all he wasn't a pilgrim did stay with the pilgrims and grew up there and so it was of course. I also come from a family that was in australia living in the rocks sydney. Who were sent there as convicts from the uk and their teenage daughter hated the new mother so much that she got out of there and went back to relatives in california in the eighteen fifties. So i could austrailia and convict routes as well as mayflower routes. What a fluke fantastic. Thank you so much. You very kind. Good to talk to you again. Great to talk with you talked to peter raven director emeritus of the great missouri botanical garden in st louis. His book driven by nature is just out the side show on our work.

missouri botanical garden sydney peter raven california stanford china saint louis monsanto australia mediterranean missouri san francisco eric godly botany division in christ chur california academy of sciences anne international union for the co natural history museum
FINDING DORY w/ Jackie Kashian

Bad Science

54:53 min | 2 years ago

FINDING DORY w/ Jackie Kashian

"Hi, I'm dorey or hundred McDonald's and you like to try our new special milkshake hornbeck special. Yeah. And I think so what is that? It's a core dog meal that comes with the milkshake and fries and a coke high and doing is this McDonalds. Yes, this is McDonald's. Can I take your order? Please. Do you have any corn dogs or milkshakes? Yes. Okay. So you want the a milkshake or special? Oh, what's that? What do you mean? What's that? Are you serious? He is at funnier. Something funny. Here's here today. So can you please tell me your order? What would you like to eat t- who had really likes him pizza? Let me to get a some do you like toppings or just cheese or week? Who is this? It's your at McDonald's. We do nor my parents are. Okay. Please pull route to the window calling the police. Did the movie right? Or will we have to fight? Hi, everybody. Welcome to bed science. I'm Ethan Edinburgh. And today, we are talking about finding Dory. A movie that I think everyone on the planet except for me has seen until yesterday. I think it made roughly sixty two cadrillion dollars. It's like the most successful film on the planet. And I have two very exciting. Guests with me today. I off a brilliant standup comedian who I absolutely adore. It's Jackie -cation. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Oh, thanks for being here. Jack been wanting on the show for a long time seeing multiple goals. I set my sights low Jackie exactly shoot for the stars. You won't miss your foot. And of course, we have here. The doctor Luis Rocha from the California academy of sciences. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Great. Did. I get that. All right. It's absolutely right. Yes. Unbelievable. Yes. Yes. So far and didn't even call out my own pup potential sticks. Okay. So first off Jackie you said, you own the film finding yes, I almost all animated films. I've seen them if this were a program about a drama. You would be in some serious trouble. But luckily, it's children's movie, and so I have seen it. Okay. Great. I didn't know you had a passion for children's. No. I have a passion to be entertained and not said, so this I mean a lot of children's films. Specially Pixar films are very sad. It's true. This one this one had had the potential. Yes. And and then we find out, and I have many questions the life span of fish fry. Anyway. You'd be surprised. I will be totally do we were talking very briefly before the podcast. And I was already surprised I mean, sometimes as we were discussing we'll have environmental scientists come on the program and the conversation can turn bleak so fast. And and so that that I think was was less involved in the film. They didn't really touch that much on plastic in the ocean. There was a little bit of it. But the the real sadness, I thought at least from the beginning of the film was going to come with these family losing her parents, right, right? And you see up are you so sad four minutes in. And I was like did that just miscarry. Yeah. What just happened? Anyway, I thought it was going to be a tear Jerker of a film. I cried during finding nemo twice. I have no problem admitting that and but this film, it was I felt like got close. But I didn't I didn't get there. I don't know how you guys felt about that. If it like made you really sad. But for me, it was just a I don't know. Is some set parts, but overall it was into light side. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Yeah. It was. It was good in the end. And it was you know, it was one of those movies where I don't know if you ever saw homeward bound. Yeah. Said one of the dogs is missing at the end of it. And you're like, oh, it's so sad. And then it's the golden retriever, I think that might be the Irish setter. I think it's. Over the hill. And I'm like, I'm sobbing. My niece comes up. He's okay. Your shoes. Three anyway. So my question to you is going to be if you owned this film, and other children's film does that mean you have a bunch of DVD's at your house. You have blue race. How does this week? Blue Ray DVD. Sure, sure, I'm I might not be super young. I have I have hard copies of things and guess who's going to have hard copies of things when the big melt on happened right here. People are going to be your apocalypse. He caught. Spirit, some DVD. We're talking about this me apocalypse in a positive light. We're saying like, maybe that's what we need to save humanity to wipe out a bunch of us and then right to your backyard to watch finding Dory. Zach rejected wall. I'm sure you'd be open to hosting of always we have a victory garden. So there will be some fresh vegetables since well. Of course, it wore catering. Okay. So let's talk about the finding Dory. Fish, which is the blue Tang. Right. Okay. What is it called a blue Tang H E? Yes. That's how what they refer to it in the movie there's a scientific name. Yes. Do you know this name paragon tourists potus for home? You got a good gas here. This is going to be good. So what does that telling? Oh, yeah. Bush. If that being blue Tang, no does not God Matang now that's more of a reference to its it's family that the surgeon fish, and the fact that he has a little Lancet on the on the coffin, they are called surgeon fish surgeon fish, they have of the fence mechanism is a very sharp modified scale when the tail they used to. How to fish that want to eat them very much? More violent story of reuse that she they would not in the movie. But right, you'll life. Yeah. Yeah. You mess with Dory. She could have she could have Ellen Degeneres would a had you ship is what it is. Have comes this shit is a great fish normally think of Ellen with ship. Okay. So actually, I have stuff about blue Tangs. And I want to ask you about it. But I feel like we're already giving away certain answers to a game. I wanted to play. So let's just play the game. I think first and that way we'll get that. We'll get that out of the way, and then we can use these this information later, so I'm calling this game. Finding dorito learning. And I'm calling it that because all about nicknames because apparently this fish, the blue Tang is a lot of nicknames. Yes. So I'm going to ask I'm gonna I'm gonna say nickname. Jackie to tell me if this is real or not, and then I will have Dr Louise confirm. The nickname. No, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scientists is not a nickname, exactly. Names. But the KOMO names that go over my head. Okay. Perfect. Doesn't time except playing around. Scientific name not the. Yeah. He's not here in the streets with us. Okay. So here we go. General fish general fish? I feel like that. Well from the character of Dory. I gotta say she doesn't feel militaristic. But now having heard about the ship. I'm going to go not real not real. Okay. I never heard that before. So I'm going to go not real to both correct. Okay. Okay. On the board, Dr fish, Dr fish. I think has been revealed as real, okay? Yes. That one is. Correct letter six fish. The six letters F. I'm just counted it out of my hands. Luckily, I've got six fingers on one hand. Yeah. It is very strange. I didn't want to point it out. And. Not real. I have never heard that one before. Although I don't know reminds me of a six, and the fish might be. I don't know maybe Israel's supposedly because of outlooks number six. Yup. Blue in the black and the center, look like number six what's the word letter all about what's that all about? I don't know. Ladder six time to learn the alphabet. This didn't take the time to learn English. Warren scientists. Okay flag. Fin fish flag. Fin fish. Yeah. No, no, not. No, not really, no, not real. I like the speed at which we're going now. Okay. Blue surgeon fish. Yes. Yes. Israel that is correct. Zippo tang. I want that to be real cpos tank. I want that to be real to though, I think it's not not real. Okay. I'm sorry. I know you wanted to take a lot to offer a girl zippo kind of thing it feels like a this Rizzo. But. Over here with some briefs references and other things from the throughout the giorno coming handy. Okay. Hippo hippo. No, no. I'm going to say, no. I think that's really I I definitely heard it before that Israel docs, do it. I do not know why though asking, you know. Right. Just in your head somewhere. Okay. I'm sure there's so much. It's like pun intended. Do they do does it say why probably? You had clicked on it. Boy, would you know? I do this is a common theme. Also, I do just the surface level again unintended of research. And then I just write it down. I move on. Right. Right. I think it's because they like cabbage and howls. Oh, okay. They do eat plants. Okay. There. You get here on plan. Eater. Plant eater. Fish just a few more. We got regal Tang regal Tang. I don't think. So I know there's regal angel fish his real. My good friends. That is what I want Israel. Okay. It does feel like we're alty Atlantic yet. Atlantic blue Tang. Yes. No. Planted on close on the drawl. Not that I have a degree in political science. I know what I'm talking about. All right to people with degrees. All right, hedgehog blue Tang who? Can't you are kind of pointy. So it makes me think because of the Schiff, but and it is blue and Tang clearly part of the part of the magical drink that we went to space in. I again, though, I'm going to say, no, I don't think so either I'm gonna one you brought your both rights. All right. All right. All right, last one wedge tailed blue Tang. Still blue wedge wedge-tail. Yes, it is that one is correct going with your gut, and I love it. All right. Hell blue tank. So if you wanna use any of those I'm sure you remember, which ones are real feel about the episode. I'd like to speak to the regal. It's like that'd be a great guest to is. If you had the actual fish right here in the middle of the test. So we could look at it. Right. So that's one of the reasons why I don't use a neither us nor. No, the KOMO names because there's too many. There's too many and they fired by region. They vary with the language. The point because I assume that this is a common thing with animals, so I don't know ocean. Fish like, why do they have so many names? What's the what's is it's because their cultural so every culture has their own. And that's one of the reasons why the system that lenient system nomenclature was invented it's to have one universal name for Ivy species of okay? Yeah. Needed. My father-in-law used to say that if you'd say what does that plant he go? Oh, you don't know then he'd pause and you go well round here, we call that a roadside week. And then whatever he just makes it right? I just created that name out of the blue. Okay. So blue Tangs your specialty is in coral reefs. Yes. You're starting them. All the time. We talked about it your scuba diving down there and hanging out with them having conversations. Right, right. That's I assume you're the bulk of your work is talking to a coral reef. Blue tangs. I found are very important to the life cycle of coral reefs. Could you explain why that is right? So we talked about a little bit. When we said we bought the he pulled Tang that the plants so that corals are in constant constant competition with the algae for space in the reef. And the algae if it let alone without any deterrence with overgrown coral, okay, now what tanks in general and blue Tang in specific do is they keep the algae population down by eating. It is good for the coral. Okay. All right. So many things I don't know. Balance to start with this word g is a plant. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Next up. Curl has no natural defense against a plant. It is is alive. It it is allies. But it's an animal and it has some defenses. But the algae if let's if has its own control the fast too, much nutrients in the water or has no no other animals eating over grow. It will grow over the courtroom, go faster. Okay. Yeah. Then the coral can defense and the coral. Corleto move around a lot. They do not this near cancers. They're homebodies is that what appearing that's your sign non kidding anyway. So they have behalf one stage that I think we're going to talk about at some point they'll move really it's the same with the blue Tangs. A lot of marine species in general, they have what we call up illogic larval stage. Okay. So during their life cycle when they reproduce their babies, they their larva. Yeah. They go out in the open ocean. And then they float around for a period between a few days to a few weeks to a few months. That's how they move. And then they settle on a different air on the place. That's why we find the same species in different islands. But that that particular individual doesn't move for its entire life. Right. They pick a place, and then they pick a place when they reproduce their babies go somewhere else. Yeah. Did not know that a lot of that. Brings me to the fact that story would never know their parents, right? Yeah. I I had down also that they would just lay the eggs and take off is that common for a lot of about nine hundred thousand nine percent of coral reef fish. Okay. Most scar refits us that strategy off lender. Eggs and the eggs get go adrift in a current and settle potentially hundreds of miles away. Gosh, different island or a different location. The reef. Okay. So it's like simultaneous. She wouldn't know who her parents were. She wouldn't have been raised. They they just have to figure out life for themselves tanks and coral reef fish. That's how I was raised your name. And Nima robbed. You all to Nima wouldn't know the Hispanic. Really? Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, they just. Yeah. They just lay them take off. So it's yeah. It's like both sad. And that's the norm. Like people should be upset that Dory. Would know her parents because the parents and the yeah, the one of the evolutionary reasons for that is as because the briefs the coral reefs and Jan there. They're they're a good environment. They're stable environment. But sometimes there's catastrophic things that happens to like if there's a hurricane that passes by completely destroys the coral reef. Okay. So you don't want to have all of your ask it? What you did there correctly. Birds. Right. So if there's if yeah, it's just a safety measure, right? They didn't disperse that would be like one or two species per island and every time a hurricane passed. It would wipe out wipeout that once. Okay. Yeah. That is an efficient at all. And the earth is nothing if not totally efficient, right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's fascinating. Which is why we have no issues with the environments being destroyed is because everything is fine. The earth will regenerate itself. Well and sign George Carlin George Carlin bit. Environmental, sir. Always like, you're killing the planet. You're killing the planet. Plants going to be fine plans could kill us. And and then the planet will continue. I'm sure will be a different planet will be very different planet. Take more time. Yeah. It'll take a fair amount of time, but the planet because I'm pretty sure the planet is trying to kill us at this point going are there really eight billion of one large bipedal. I got. I got I got a whack a mole. Yeah. I don't know about you guys. Do I would like to continue onwards as a species, right? I I'm doing fine. I just fear for my offspring and their offspring. And and then that's it into the ocean. And let them float. I think that's what race travel. That's what I think. We're tripping to do space travel, right? Yeah. Good point. So I also have here that that these blue Tangs will play dead if there's predators nearby, which we didn't see I don't think we saw right in the move. I don't think so. And that's that's not a very common defense mechanism for those guys. There's other other species that that a lot in the reef triggerfish. Okay. And they're called triggerfish because they have a spine and modified spines the dorsal fins. And when they go into a crevice in the reef they triggered that in to get stuck in there, and they played that but surgeon fish, they almost never do that they used their scalpels. Yeah. Yeah. The basin retails defense mechanism wonder about the fish that will play dead does that ever backfired then they'd become dead. Fence choices pretend to be dead. And then that things could start knowing on me. And then I'm actually going to be dead. I'm sure I'm sure. That's got that's got to work as often as it fails. And fifty. But I suppose it's better than dry now. Run Sylvie cannot run. That's a good point. Yeah. Okay. So wait, let's before because I have so many questions here about coral reefs and different fish stuff. But just about the film. Let's get into that. I did you guys like how much did you enjoy the movie are there other Pixar films that you liked more? I just want to get your. I don't know your take on the door. He's great though. I mean that character. So so great, you know, it's based on a very old joke of Ellen Degeneres is really yes, she does a joke on one of her early albums. I think our specials at it's essentially about fish enough in a fishbowl at how they have. They must have the worst short term memory ever. Because essentially, and then she doesn't impression of the fish going around the bowl going. Oh, look, there's a castle full if there's a Catholic. I remember the castle. And that's and that is that is story. So that is a very old Ellen, Degeneres, bent, and. Yeah. She wrote herself into right? Fred of both. What exactly move pretty sweet, you gotta start putting animals that talk and you're actually heavily. I think. I've got like you really need to conic you get a creature enrolls. Yeah. Yeah. But she was such a great character. So I just love because she's so likeable and she forgets almost immediately. Right. I have some Dory. Qualities in the way that I tend to forget when people don't like me, and I'm like oh of. Of. Enjoy me. I can't imagine the hell me neither. But I'm always surprised I. But they have another opportunity to be weirdly standoffish, and then I get to go. Let's right. Gonna get. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I completely agree. I think that's so like instantaneously relatable and adorable her character in the movie, and I thought that the same of a bunch of characters in the movie those like aegis Elba. What we're those seals. I don't I'm going to get this wrong. What were the other animals in the great question? There's octopus right there. Arbor seals there to China octopus. I have questions about the giant you probably have questions about the giant. Oh, you dig it octopus, the grumpy activists who had both chameleon qualities and shape, shifting qualities. Yes. Hey, any of that is real to a point guy? Accelerated they they do church caller, very quickly very quickly in the even walk out of the water. Like, they did they're right. But they do not do it that fast, and they did not do it that precise. Like, sometimes it turns into like a piece of a staircase with the truck. Dell is one of my limited to I love that. He was able to change in blended, but they are super smart. Some people believe they are the smartest animals in the ocean after dolphins and marine mammals and general now, here's the other thing. The other question how long do those act by live how long to octopus they live a long time. Twenty thirty years. I'd say we have really we have a giant Pacific out was that the aquarium kind of fun economy and. It's been there. I've been there for seven years it's been there for the whole time. And it's just. Because this is now I hang out with a lot of dorks. Right. And so. I mean, the thing is I was told I just took it as a fact, but you are a scientist doctor, and you'll know is that that octopus is supposedly rocked by are the smartest animals on the planet is is what has been speculated. Right. And the reason that they don't run the world is because they their life cycle is a lot smaller than that of humans. Lot of octopus have been ten twenty years. He's a lot smaller lifestyle. Okay. But there is. But I mean, let's say. But yeah, I mean, there's there's a there's a famous case in the public aquarium. I can't remember where the aquarium was exactly at feel like it was someplace in Europe, but they had a quarantine room. Like, one of the ones that shown in the movie, and they used to have a tank with fish or a couple of things we fish and one tanks with with an octopus. And there's fish that we're disappearing from this fish tank, and nobody knew what it was. So everybody started suspecting something breaking in somebody breaking in ceiling the fish. They finally settled the camera. Yeah. And they saw what was happening octopus was removing the lid from it's from. From getting out of the tank walking around the room going not going into the fish tank, grabbing a fish, and then coming by closing all of the lips and coming back to his to his tank and closing the lid to eat it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we had they are super smart occupy in octopus. No, no like where it is insanely smart that the ones in our tanks. We keep them into tained by presenting them with with challenges. We don't just give food. We we give them food inside the jar. Okay. And then they have to screw the lid open, only guess. The food out of the jar. They are. Eleven. Creeped out. And yet I wish them the best of luck to man. That's unbelievable. Had knowing about this. Why aren't there more? Just videos circulating every day. I think I've seen a video of that of that octopus opening up the thing, right? Pad pad pad opening up the other one grabbing a fish pep at be bones on the bottom of the activists cage, or maybe it was geared fish bones. No, they digest the whole thing. Okay. That's even bigger than they like. Crabs and oh, the shells and everything the shells. They they leave alone. But okay, when they eat the fish, the whole thing. Oh, yeah. All right. Wow. And so occupies the right thing to say for several. I'm always like, I don't know. I things I saw online that people say both was is parole and singular it's one of those words. Okay. Kid up. Our they're fresh water coral. That's my next question. That doesn't have anything to do with Dory. No. There's no there. Okay. It's a salt water salt. Water thing is a salt water thing. Its own. Thanks. Okay. So another since we're talking about the octopus. There's like a part where they're in that poke tanks as they call it. It's probably not the real name of those. But whatever touch tankers, and they're like they hit the octopus Inc. Just completely like goes everywhere. So why does that happen? Does it happen so easily and how much ink is dispersed? It does happen easily. It makes a cloud that the size of the table here so feet put a picture it says defense mechanism. They they just they use their cloud that the Incas of distraction. So you can't either sorcerer's it's. Moms chose. It also pods. Do that octopus squid, okay? That's defense. It's a defense mechanism to full. So something threaten them. They do the ink and then they'll swim away. Very fast. Are there are those hand to God kind of tanks for for octopus? No because. Yeah. They would get out of it. They weren't stick to people's hands. They would. Yeah. You wouldn't want? They want to murder. Yeah. They'd be like, Nope. This is what they had those Stingray tanks there. Those are the ones that are usually right? Yeah. Yeah. I always think if a hand came out of the sky to Pat, my head irritated would I base? Why did I not what am I leave them? Be. I don't want to swim with dolphins. I all I can think is dolphins. Think what you find another person to swim with. Yeah. What do you do? We had a we had a I think her name was Gwen another scientist on from. We were talking about free Willie. I think on different episode, and she was saying that a lot of people go swim with dolphins, and like take pictures, and they think all the dolphins are so happy that we're doing this because they they have their mouth looks happy. She's like that's just how their mouth is not thrilled to see. You don't have any resting bitch. Phase. Have dolphin in general. They don't like humans. I've been I've done. I don't know six thousand scuba dives. I've been all over the place diving. I heard them hundreds of times underwater, you hear them talking. Dolphins head. You're going to do it. But I have I've seen them once. Through my six thousand five career. They never get close. They don't like humans, even when you were on the boat right on top of them and you jump in. And you get a glimpse into just swim away. Great. They like votes though. Yeah. They like boats naming alongside the boats. They like wake. That makes sense. Yeah. That sounds like. And that's why that's why you get to see them. When you go on a will. Because they'd like to ride the wave, right? So wouldn't visually look at dolphins. Guys. Don't go swim with these Malone. See you heard about the shark thing that happened this week know what happened? There was some sharked video that went viral. There's a blue carcass of a whale that showed up in Hawaii, and whenever there's a floating Wilcox there's sharks eating at Scher. So there's there's giant great white shark, which is not very common Cy seen in Hawaii. Great white sharks. Prefer colder water like here. Yeah. And then there was a famous. Social media, guests conservationists that jumped in of water and has all kinds of videos of her swimming around and touching the shark will and that became viral instantly because she's a very, oh, very Pretty Woman, and she was swimming around with this chart that was ten times her size. She killed. No, jane. But a lot of weight. Strong scientists that is not an advisable thing to do you don't get out of your car when you're going to safari so. Yellow sharks? I was just too ill stone in four different fifty year old white women try to pet animals when I was at Yellowstone in different women dot related to each other different parts of the park. Three tried to pit bison. One woman tried to pet a moose, and they were all hurt. But none of them died. When was gored one was kicked one was trampled and one was headbutted. Wow. And you see all this, and they all live all should have died. That sounds like the ideal. Yellowstone trip is. And get here is I have so many videos of just place and kind of noodling around in front of the cars trying to get into the park. And you're like roll up the windows roll up the windows, of course. Right. It's very cool to see them. I don't need to see the many close by IT new only do love animals, but I always think I have an unsubstantiated theory. I've always had it that some animals don't evolve because they don't want to hang out with humans. They wanna stay in the ocean. Yeah. Doing everyone of their. Going to stay here. I feel most of the time. That's the most of the time. What's happening, right. Yeah. How can we fix the? Jonathan about if Aleutian though is that a lot of people assumed that humans are the pinnacle of Lucien inward, the most f- off animal in the planet. No, no. There's hundreds of millions of species in the planet. They all survived throughout the history of the planet. They're all equally evolved mean, we wouldn't be I wouldn't be swimming with Dori if I didn't have my school year. Right. Yep. So I'm not evolved. I couldn't eat what she eats. Once. I have not evolved in that sense. It's true. What what has existed like like the way of Aleutian works? From by very limited memory, Jack occasion. Yes. That's different. So the so we have we evolved from other primates, obviously. Right. So what other animals came from from something that are still on the planet like like shirks or or or alligators crocodiles or something like that? Aren't they sort of? Chint beings. Ancient beings that evolved into something else. Like did Dory. Did the blue Tang come from? There were always like different kinds of pangs. I guess, but they have they have asked disturbs everything has a uncessary. Oh, pretty assessor species that came before them, and they had evolved into for coral. Reef fishes. It's a very hard kind of study because there's not a lot of Fussell's. So to to understand how the species of all the ideally you'd look at their fossils in for primates. There's quite a few because we have bones and those are easy to fuss allies in a land restaurant in firemen. But in the water, if you if you the fish bones, they did solve very quickly. So it's very hard to find good Brosseau record for fishes. There's only one in Italy. It's called the place called multi Boca, and there's a few fossils their Vate between thirty and forty million years and. Of cour- of corals a fish. Okay. It's the oldest known coral. Reef fish fauna mean kind of similar to what we have today. And where I wanna I wanna go where is it in Italy Nathalie? Yeah. It's multiple coca. I don't know. Exactly. In Italy in the boot are we telling the west side, you know, would it be conveniently located on the amalfi coast. So that I could get a very nice Cup of coffee to have to go to Italy and look around right, right? So the other way that we can kind of study evolution in animals is by looking at the relationships between the leaving species. So we know that humans and chimps and orangutans and gorillas the are all closely related, so we can assume they have a recent common s own sister. Right. Even if we didn't have a fossil to show, it indicates of France, we have many, but in the case a fish, we don't, but we still do the same thing we kind of look at their closest to the species and for their relationships based on how distantly related close related. The are. What is related to a coral? Thing. Yeah. Jellyfish have related to corals. Whoa. A name related to quarrel. Look at FRANZ name money. A quarrel was basically a colonial Anemone. Okay. We the law tiny anemones shared their food shared resources in a big Stony skeleton. Yeah. Crazy. That's what the this. Trucker of the coral is the skeleton that they leave behind right right in in. This only the very surface of the coral colony is alive is believing tissue and everything behind it is core is a skeleton custom carbon. That's been deposited over time as they grow while we're gonna take a fast Brig, and then hear more from Lewis and Jackie. Is over. I hope you had a snack. Here we go back to the show about signs. What at one point Dory goes into the enemy, and she gets stung like you times. Right. Is that realistic? Or would she? I don't know. What's the what's the consequence for getting stung by an EMMY, if you're not she probably die. Oh, grand beats and. She'd be playing. Yeah. Really end quarrels have that same kind of stinging capability but much smaller scale because they're tiny little anemones. But a big Anemone would eat a fish without much without much problem. Why one that a fish can swimming to? Okay, do you. Remember the bouncing on in in finding nemo on top of the jellyfish. Yes. So it would the top of the jellyfish. There is no stinking tentacles that thinking mechanism that tentacles. Okay. They wouldn't be able to swim among the tentacles. But if they were to bounce sometimes right here, fine fine. Yes. Okay. That's good to know mistake on Dory. Movie though. I think is the fact that it set in to Ray, California. Why no not those fish would survive. Those temperatures Nimmo the to cold too cold cold cold water in Monterrey's between ten twelve degrees celsius the water that those fish like is between twenty five twenty six twenty eight celsius. So okay. So long were they just there because of bad? Institute Monterey Bay. That's what that because in the movie there at the marine life into space Monterey Bay Aquarium. And then they had to escape from it. Yes. That's right. They had done it in Sydney. Movie was it will be a little more realistic. Not completely because they don't move that much either. Okay. But they want to see the world and the the warp the turtle hurtle war, you'd never find an adult fish swimming around the dote Corey Fisher, meaning the open like that. Okay. The larvae eggs they float around within the open, but not what is on their parents. Louise, what if they were onto west they had to do it, man? That's why the there's huge risks dates here in this field to find that sort. They jumped out at query Amine, Monterey and jumping to water. It'd be dead in ten minutes. Really, just cold. Just finding out how all these wonderful characters would die. So. Just this one little mistake. And they're they're gone. So wait should people. Go to that aquarium. Is that like the one like big amazing? You you you work at it. There's an aquarium. Sciences. It's a nice one Monterey. Aquarium is fantastic. They have they do a lot of conservation programs. They have they don't have Wales. And right big animals that shouldn't be in tanks. You can see seals and things, but they're all released on the outside of the they have like an Infinity pool. Yeah. Right because they're attached to the actual ocean. Right. Right. Right. I I went to the Monterey aquarium one time and you'll be happy to know bought a set of coasters. And I am happy the Harry Potter. It was a Harry Potter Harry Potter joke, but it was called hairy honor those are prized possessions behind very nice coats once again dork forest. I enjoyed the academy has an acquiring to when we have the largest indoor coral reef in the world. Wow. Okay. Right here in San Francisco here in San Francisco. It says it open on Sundays. It is opening Sunday's. Okay. 'cause I'm here tomorrow. It is okay. It is. Okay, Sunday's go. Check it out. Brent defend I'll go to. Okay. So we're we're running low on time, which is unbelievable because I really thought I wanted to get to so much more stuff. And I'm very impressed that we didn't go down this extremely bleak easily accessible road. Sad sack about the ocean. But I did want to mention a few things. So she has short term memory loss in the movie like you were saying, Allen's old bit her special, which is called n terro grade amnesia. And so I just wanted to give you guys a few tips on conserving, your memory or like improving your memory in case, you're worried about moving forward. Yes. Actually, that's one you. You know, mental exercises. So you wanna do crossword puzzles you wanna do Sedova learned to play an instrument? Learn a language, you know, keep your mind as sharp as possible that helps physical activity as well, you want to be everyday if you can because that gets blood flow to your whole body, including your brain walked up an escalator. That's so you're done today. Do that every day right here in the building. They said social interaction wards off, depression and stress both of which can contribute to memory loss. So I thought that was good. And then, of course sleeping well, and a healthy diet all helps with memory, which is one of my actually main concerns or fears moving forward in life. I want to be able to remember stuff. Okay. Yeah. I think that it's it's it's hyped up a lot in the in the media. So there's more concern for it. And but it I mean, it's a very real thing. And so anything you can do to fight the good fight. And then let's take a dive into the dark zone here for a second. We were talking before Jackie got here about the terrible state of affairs right now. Right. And how which which one? Overeat reef thing. Yes, this coral reef thing is really really shit. And there's also this weird focus that's like in the wrong place. We're talking about basically propaganda right environmentalism, that's not proper. And so one of the examples we were talking about was this guy that you said like he was like seventeen and raise like three hundred million dollars. So can you tell us just quickly about this? I don't know what his knee out. Yeah. Yeah. So that's not really specifics guard. It's more of a general ocean thing, but the ocean cleanup. It was the the kid who wanted to clean up the plastic fucking. Fucking garbage. It did garbage patch receipt. It you can't see it. You cannot. No. It's too widespread. You can swim right through it. And not see a single piece of plastic. Oh that is not that. It's not I have been sold a Bill. Good. Yes. Of the problem that will like a what do we just built something on it? If it's that dense kid that you can you can walk over it. And it's not that's not the case at all. Okay. It's a piece here and a piece on the other side of town. So how would you clean it up or houses just clean up? The beaches. Why don't you start with the thing in front of you is that what I'm hearing? Well, not necessarily even. If you think of plastic collector in the ocean. Yeah. All of the beaches of plastic elections for collectors for ocean already already. Yeah. So we have millions of miles of west collectors. What we do have to do is stop throwing in garbage. Yeah. Yes. I wouldn't have him out. Yeah. Taking him out. Tough the middle the ocean. It's probably going to do more harm than good because there's a lot of animals closer related to corals even jellyfish and other plankton activists. So that the animals that live in the water column out in the open ocean. We call the plankton there's a little plankton that are the same size into saying density as plastic in. We'll be captured by those floating structures and killed and aren't they? Aren't some of the animals in the ocean? Using the as habitat aren't they are using to it. They're using habitat. Yeah. Yeah. So if if we I mean, we're on the la- we're land dwellers, we could just clean the land up and leave the ocean alone for a second, and it might kind of fix it. I mean, right. And if we stop throwing morning, it will definitely out. Yeah. Yeah. In this particular case, the the kid that proposed the ocean cleanup idea, it was really unfortunate. Because when he came up with it was a Ted talk. That was very highly publicized. And not a lot of people got behind the idea, it sounded very promising one of those super bullet ideas that. Yeah. Rarely work. If it's too easy to if it sounds too good to be true. It always is a lot of scientists warned that one it was gonna kill too much things. We've tried to remove it from there to the size of the structure into design of it would would be. Make it to easy to break apart, and because the ocean is storms and all kinds of wave action, and it's easy to break things. And then three you could invest in other things that would be a lot cheaper and have a much better result, and for example, beach cleanups. But even with all of that he went ahead with it and low and behold, two months after the whole thing broke up, and and now it's garbage it. And now, it's it's been fixed. Okay. In Hawaii was doing air quote. He's got he's got out of year a few months ago, and it spent two months out there, and it broke up in several pieces, and it's being fixed somewhere right next to that. Someone couldn't have like it's it's hard to talk sense into somebody who has like this kind of crusade idea. Right. And especially if if a bunch of other people who don't know that much are throwing money at you. Right. Yeah. But that's the whole that's been been my opinion. The main problem is that we're not relying on the scientific community for our information. Right. You know, if you have all these experts, they spend their lives, you know, devoting into like office. They know the answer. So if they're coming to you, and they're saying, hey, we've spent decades and decades finding out this research, this is why won't work. There's no rebuttal. Just listen to what they say. Right. And offering an alternative the beach cleanup thing it's not as glamorous no race three hundred million for it. Either. Blue. How do we raise three hundred million to do beach? Like, I guess have like death punk and Konya play on the beach. And while they play everybody collects. I don't agree. Hearing. There's there's research that shows that I think it's something like seventy five percent of the plus did that plastic that ends up in the ocean comes through ten major rivers. So if we stopped if we had some sort of barrier owned on some way, you only out and those rivers stopped seventy five percent of the blessed from going into the ocean in the first place. Oh, there, you know, we want to clean up the whole most accessible part of it three quarters of the planet the planet. Yeah. That's that's now I have one time went snorkeling in the Great Barrier. Reef of Australia, and it was a super beautiful and amazing. It must have been a long time ago. It wasn't probably ten years ago. And but the, but I was told that there is another at I was on the side of I was on the west coast of Australia about nine weeks later, and I was on a berry or a reef there too. That is almost as big as the great brewery is that true that there's a refund the on the western coast of. From the western coast there. I don't know if it says big as the Great Barrier Reef. Okay. Because I know that they were building hotels. Okay. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be done bright in since we got into the Great Barrier. Reef, and you said ten years ago, if you go now, you're not going to recognize it really is in the past five years almost half of it died in. We're talking about a structure that is thousand eight hundred miles. Yeah. It should giant massive structure that can be seen from space, and it was not plastics that killed it was it was not overfishing that killed it. It was not them the Great Barrier. Reef is arguably the best. So if you think of Yellowstone. Yeah, the great bear reef is the best marine park. There is in the planet. The oldest one that's most healthy until a few years ago climate change completely changed that all right because of the heat of the water to the water. So we've been talking about quarrels in how they grow their skeleton. It's the corals they live in a very complex relationship with symbiotic algae. So there's the tiny little alga. That lives inside them, and they kind of survive into a recycling system. So the I'll gets nutrients from the coral and then the sun. Makes them do this. And then they give back their waist, which nutrients to the coral. So they feed on the corals, which we could learn something we want to do about feed them the coral waste, and the coro fees and their waist, and then everything everybody wins. And then you don't top of everything they algae even get protection from being inside. The quarrel doesn't get buy anything else. Now the corals to maintain that relationship. They need a very stable temperature. Oh, it shouldn't fluctuate came not fluctuate need away and either lower or higher. So they have a very tiny threshold of temperature. It can survive on. And if it goes above that threshold what happens is they expelled. They just threw up the out yet expel of the or of the algae that is inside their tissue in the algae is what gives the coral their color. So when that happens, they become white. Yeah. That's called coral bleaching. Yeah. Yeah. And when they bleach. Because they don't get the nutrients from the album, they they basically starve, right? So they spent that water stays warm for a long enough period. They just die of starvation. And that's what happened chew years ago in two thousand sixteen and seventeen in the great bear reef almost half of the corals in tired Great Barrier. Reef died man because of this particular. Yeah, finding Dory. What to do? But write it should have put something at the end of the film that, you know, go to this website or donate here to help conserve. I mean, I don't know exactly where. Coral reef that you see in the opening scenes that it's hard to find these days. And I want to say talking about coral reefs that there's so a lot of people don't know why we need them or why they're important, right? And I'm sure you can explain this more than this thing I found online, but it said that they are believed to have the highest biodiversity of any ecosystem on the planet even more than a tropical rainforest is not true. Not you're okay. I'm glad I brought it up. Then what do they do a long shot? No. The most diverse ecosystem in the oceans, but they have I don't know less than a tenth or one twentieth of the diversity in rainforests, insects rainforests, and there's all species in all reefs combined. Okay. But I hate insects. So we just all those I would much rather have fish? There's more plants and then there are scorers. There's more there's more mammals than terrestrial minimums, marine mammals. There's more freshwater fish than their score refitting the Amazon basin own. Yeah. There are more species of freshwater fish than there are in almost all coral reefs combined. But nothing looks like coral reef. No, no, carbon Yousef usually smoothly. Stunning. Yeah. Yeah. So what are the what is what is the rule of the coral reef in the ecosystem the ecosystem, we're about to destroy destroy? I there's a lot of people that focus on their their human. Products. I guess the the benefits for humans in. I I don't like doing that. But I always doing aging cream or something. Yeah. There's all kinds of say what you can use corresponds to draft bones. So big bone for. Oh, like, there's all kinds of medicines that you can get from sponges and corals because quarrels don't move. Yeah. They have to protect themselves chemically. So they have this interesting chemistry that all kinds of bio pharmaceutical companies that are active. Yeah. And then they protect coastlines because they grow constantly. Yeah. Big break the waves from hurricane for example, before it reaches the beach and your beach house or your hotel. So they protect coastlines they feed people they need more than half a million people in the planet half a million people that pan on fish that come from coral reeks. So there's all kinds of uses. Saying they're useful. They are very useful to humans. But even if they weren't there like this product of evolution that. There's no equal diving one it's like diving in a work of art. So who what's what's the Louvre museum? Yeah. And how can we how can we benefit from it? Yeah. Yeah. Why do people pay three thousand dollars to go? See a warriors match. What's the benefit to humans from specific a sporting event? Okay. Thank you very much. It's not my door. When it's the same thing, they have their intrinsic value and people see it and others, don't and I wish more people with the pocket sides. Yeah. Don't worry because they all listen to this bug. I is there a place to donate. I don't know is there. I wouldn't charity. I do not want to tell them my head just because somebody else, but I am coral reef fish on Twitter. Oh, great. So if you if you want to wait a minute you have about the handle coral reef ish. If you haven't you guys things around for winter or sitting here with coral reef vici-. That's kind of amazing even cruel refinish one. San franco. Well, that's perfect because we always have a little plug section here. Is there anything else you want to tell people about obviously, people should come to the aquarium? Around in San Francisco Monterey if you are anywhere in Los Angeles. There's a nice aquarium there too. Right. Anywhere. You can go. See there's always conservation programs in those aquariums. They don't this exists in a vacuum. So they point people in the right direction. They have sustainability solutions right there. But having said that I want to say that if the solution is easy. It's not big enough. We need bigger solutions today the bigger solution. There is is folding the right people in. Yeah. Yeah. Who are where? Just like we did in the last election. Jackie anything. Good. So my name is Jackie -cation. And it's at Jackie kitchen on all the things you can also if you can't remember that good a family pet ancestry dot com because I bought that. Because it made me laugh family pit ancestry dot com. Do you want to know if your cats eligible to get on the D are the dogs of the American revolution? They're not because they can't. But did your kick over on the Mayflower again family pit ancestry dot com anyway, but that's my website. It just goes to Jackie duck. Oh. Thanks. They got a couple of podcasts. And but this was super interesting. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. No. Thank you guys for doing the show time if they do finding Marlin. I'm having a little reunion. Yeah. We'll get together. Hopefully here in San Francisco. I live coming up here. It's fantastic. We'll do it from the aquarium. Right. Right. Yeah. Inside the tank I did that before you dove in the Tanga widely talked to the food face. It's gonna be for the audience, but worth it. Yeah. Okay. Well, guys. Thank you seriously so much for joining me. I learned a lot. I think everybody else did and see next time. We did it bad scientists hosted and produced by me in Edinburgh. Our social media for users are Kate Baker and Edward Gullit, and the executive producer is Brett Kushner, certainly you're gonna wanna follow us on Instagram at bed signs show. That's at bad signs show. Always feel free to send us an Email bad signs of secret dot com, and it would be mighty kind of you. If you left her view of the podcast on itunes that lets other people know about the show, and I'm going to start reading some reviews, and I encourage you to put your movie suggestions in the reviews, and maybe some puns, and I will read them on the air. Here's a review called. I love this podcast by Anna cat, eighty three. She says I just listened to my first episode on aliens. And I enjoyed it immensely will definitely be listening to more. I hope you do Ana cosmic data says getting Doug with high. Brought me here which is great love. Doug. He labeled that review my new favorite podcast. I hope that's true. And the mighty kind MK brew has a review labeled another favorite which in it. He says funny pod loved one in new one drops. So I'm sure you're filled with love every Tuesday. And I hope we keep filling your weeks with love so send in your reviews, and I'll read some more next week where we will be talking about galaxy quest. All right bye.

blue Tang Jackie Dory Ellen Degeneres Pixar Israel Jackie -cation Monterey Jack KOMO McDonalds California academy of sciences McDonald Yellowstone Hawaii Dr Louise San Francisco scientist
Offworld: Starship Troopers (1997)

This Is Only A Test

29:54 min | 2 years ago

Offworld: Starship Troopers (1997)

"This week's episode of off world is made possible by emerald code on sort of TV emerald code is a series about teenage friends as they solve problems using stem concepts in the latest season. The gang heads off the space camp in conduct some pretty funky experiments, if you're a teacher or parent this is an amazing way to get pre teens and young women in your life into the fields of science technology, engineering and math emerald code get with the programming. Welcome back to our for all the show where we talk about all things space exploration and pop culture. I am Ariel Waldman. And I'm norm. Chan, and I think we've a really fun of Assode free all this week. It is a movie that came out over twenty years ago now starship troopers, and we have a couple of really really awesome. Scientists from the California academy of sciences who are here to talk about bugs and kind of be in the bugs defense. I can't wait. Let's listen. Today. I'm with Dr Loren Esposito and Dr Brian Fisher. But thank you both so much for coming on the show today. It's a pleasure. Yeah. So if you could both actually introduce yourselves and say a little bit about what you do Lauren. I am the curator of Iraq -nology at the California academy of sciences, and I studied Aleutian of scorpions spiders and their venoms. Awesome. Do not study scorpions, but I can't s- and I've been studying for almost like twenty five years. I'd love ins. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're pretty creepy and awesome, in my opinion. So we're speaking of creepy an awesome. We're talking about starship troopers today nine hundred ninety seven definitely very campy. Also, a lot of fun. Most of all for the fact that they depict what they called bugs in the film. Learn what did you think of the depiction of bugs and insects in the film? Generally, what what was your feeling as being sort of a bug expert watching bugs? Well, I guess get murdered a lot on. Well, you know, I guess I would say that that bugs is a really general word, and when I think of the word bug. Is a professional entomologists. Like, the first thing that comes to mind is actually not in sex at all or raccoons. But rather like things that make you sick. So initially before I really like caught into the film and knew what was going on. And knew what they what they were describing like, I didn't really know what kind of bugs was, but I will say that. I was that. I was particularly disturbed by the fact that they really Vilnai's these bugs when really books are friends and the worst part of all was that senior. They're all something on the cockroaches. And they're like so excited about it. And it just felt so sad. Hissing cockroach, I know, and I work in Madagascar, and I was sexually saddened and they take so long to grow up to in there. Like like, these big adult mala gase his in cockroaches. And it was like a tragedy for them to be some. But they were really excited about it in the movie in insects are often detected. Like that though there maligned insects or invisible everybody or all of a sudden, they're the most awful thing. It's true. Yeah. So would I explain bugs as being creepy? Awesome. What would you say instead, infinite beauty if you actually take the time to look at one under the microscope? You'll be fascinated. It's like the most beautiful art, you could ever imagine. So speaking of art, what did you think of the depiction in terms of visuals of how these insects were actually shown on the film, and sort of I guess, you know, their size and their colors and structure why I can imagine the those who designed at wanted more. But there were limited maybe by their robotic abilities. And. But they look more like robots and insects. But, but they had some interesting detail, which I appreciate it. One. Who studies ants the were in often in groups working together. Maybe that wasn't really shown across for will in the film. But one could imagine if they did have a brain and lots of other castes worker ants, maybe that it was a social society. Yeah. Yeah. What did I answer? Kind of a warrings is a day for that matter warring. No, it's just a depiction from John. An aunt is basically in defend where they live. You know, they don't have to build a wall. They just actually go out and Mark their territory chemical chemical. A smart wall. And also. When you look at an individual ant. That's not the ant. It's like a leaf on a tree. The aunt is actually the collective whole the organism is called the super organism. And that was very similar to to the film. Right. You can kill one of those workers, and they still kept coming. You know, people always say get the ants out of my house, and they're going to like we've got to kill him. I'm like wake up there's a billion outside. They're just gonna come in and keep coming in when it gets rainy outside. So killing them is not the right approach and eventually individually. So I mean, we certainly see all these hordes of of different Iraq named like creatures come in. What did you think of the depiction of arachnids, certainly we're all sorts with aunts or having colonies, but what about arachnids in general? Well, what I would say is that whatever they liked about. The film is that there's all these different kinds of of bugs in the beginning. They like one of the first earlier scenes are like in a lab dissecting. On like, you would do in high school biology or something, and and it's vastly different from the ones that are that they're combating against initially. And and so the those definitely like multiple different kinds of bugs that were depicted. Which was I thought it was interesting and each of them, you could see where they drew their inspiration from in nature like some of them had kind of Beatle heads and others had sort of sort of like, a an ice opteron or or a crustacean kind of body and some of them look like weevils, but the arachnids I really have to take issue with because while they were called arachnids those nothing about them down. What was not Iraq net about the accident? Well, a recommends have a few really like hallmark features that make them in Iraq. And the first is that they have eight legs. These guys only have four. So forget it already. They're not interacted. Right. So I can only arachnids have really two major body parts that have the promo which is like the head and the episodes like the rest of the body, and these guys they really just kind of had one body part with like. Mouth attached at the front. The other thing that arachnids have that super important is mouth parts called Kalisz either chewing mouth parts, these guys did not have closer. They had just like this giant like it almost kind of like, very Nostra's s- Beatles. It was like the mouth part, you know, is this for like grabbing an impaling things. And I guess that's the other things that Iraq has never really impaled they sting or they bite, but they don't impale things and then like absorbed them instantaneously into their mouth, so arachnids. I'm not really convinced but bugs, okay. You can take an interesting thing about that. So this film, I think was made like a few years after Jurassic Park and the animation studio who who worked on it was the same that worked on drastic park. And I think I had read that they made the Iraq nets have four legs because the computing power to make eight legs was too much in one thousand nine hundred seven. Yeah, I can imagine that they're half arachnids. Cuddling Brian said like they look sorta robotic it almost looked like they had these four legs, and then on top of it almost like a almost like a tank was this pivoting body that like pivoted on top of all arachnids really their legs come into the into the end of their head and all those muscles like come around inside of their head. And so it's really all integrated into one seamless seamless feature. So let's talk about the size of the bugs. Also like, yeah. I mean, that's like the pretty huge thing of what if these killer bugs in outer space were really really big which meeting went ask you all about, you know, how large have bugs insects arachnids gotten in the history of earth. We usually associate them with being fairly small, although recently in the news, there's been the the SuperBeets or huge be. That was rediscovered. You know, how how large have insect Scott and in the history of earth. Have they gotten that large? They got in close to that large. Well, ella. Brian talk about the insects. But I can tell you Iraq ends at least the ancestors of modern day arachnids were huge those this thing called a eurypterid, which is informally called a spider or sea scorpion. And these things were massive there were like two meters long. They were really like the grizzlies of the ocean, they were predators. And it was these your Richards at first started coming on the land and became obvious. And it's been hypothesized that they were actually going up into rivers and eating salmon out of out of rivers just like grizzlies zoo today, so they were really huge. I would say not quite as big as you're in the film, but they were certainly a meter or two in length, but those were in the ocean. And so that explains indeed one limitation of an Esa skeleton is that heavy, but if you're in the ocean, you got some buoyancy and maybe on these planets, the gravitational pull is less, so they could support a larger scopes, let's the oxygen levels. And that's the other point. Why? And when in our history on earth, we've had large insects in it really determines their ability to absorb enough oxygen to actually keep everything working with muscles. Makutu all all insects passively require like pass, but they don't have a long. So they have to be able to increase the percentage of auction in the air, you can actually absorb it quicker, and then you can be bigger insect. So in the past you've had much larger insects you've had even hands. That would like this. Yeah. Even have great fossil deposits and Colorado in Wyoming and see them. But I think the largest fossil insect is considering by. And it was like I think like a meter wingspan something that maybe not that big. But almost all the wings wings, aren't though. We don't need any. And in the movie, we see these wasp polite Dragonfly sort of creatures come in as well. Yeah. I mean, it's like the volition, right? This look at it from an evolutionary point of view, which is like to me the most interesting part. So conversions is a common scenario in our world. Which is worth convergence would be for example, you drop some living thing into an isolated island like Madagascar, and then it just evolved in to be something very different and fill the niches that maybe other insects or animals fill in Africa. That's an example, where you have this kind of radiation, and it takes on different rules. So if you have this kind of like strategy of filling niches called the Iraq did more fo- type, but this time it has four legs because of some historical scenario Iraq, no more full typing apart at her predator. Right. And take that. And then it just actually then sets off involves now. Now, obviously niches have to be filled. Now the question is on the. Planet what niche or these filling right because they don't seem to have anything to eat unless humans were there. It's pretty other bugs does other bugs or there. They shouldn't be working together. Yeah. Because those other bugs up, then what you know, what it might have been a thriving planet before these things evolved and got out of control. You know, what maybe it's really like a metaphor for humanity. There are a lot of metaphors in this movie some of which we're coming into today. But I certainly appreciate like all the propaganda visuals and just overtones of this movie, which is a bit nuts. Although they don't really to both of your points that you don't really paint these insects in a very sort of sympathetic light. You know, they stand watching for insect reputations. Yeah. But it's not just them. It's constant even the BBC does when they do like planet earth. Don't show you beautiful scenarios of penguins and the next scene. They'll show you locusts in Madagascar and say, oh Yvo we're going to help kill them. Here. We've teamed up with the pesticide company to go out and kill them. I'm like excuse me. The. The locals eat edible. Insects and locust are one of the most nutritious foods, Amena Gasco and abundant. So gang MC to the whole thing about other planets, so you could imagine based on the history of earth and life, as we know that there may be other planets in our galaxy just imagining that have if they have a lot more oxygen than we do in their atmosphere that the that there are potentially planets that could have bugs and insects like get as large or close to as large as we see in the movies. So he's not entirely made up that insects could actually get this large. No, I think that that it's conceivable that somewhere in the universes. There's another planet that is similar enough to earth in that it contains oxygen and has similar kinds of habitats like oceans and land and things that are primary producers like are equivalent of plants and then something eating those like article. Of aunts. And then something that's that comes along that evolves. Convergence early. So it's it's involving to occupy similar spaces are arachnids. That's just really giant because it's praise giant and what the proceedings also giant because of increased levels of oxygen or some other kind of chemical because the body plan of insects souls. A problem very efficiently wanna takes low input. So it doesn't waste energy on heat. Requires less water. But also because the skeletons on the outside and the muscles are in the insight, and that provides a lot of like Newtonian advantage. You get great leverage. You can be you can lift more for your size, and it's just worked so much better. In fact, it's in many ways superior body plan and put in your muscles on the outside and your bones on the and then something on top of all that like your skin hold it all in this is just like two birds with one stone. So so on that. So do you think insects and bugs are really amenable to living in extreme conditions that we might see on other planets or moons, and you know. In the news. A lot is harder grades for their ability to be all over the earth like many insects are but also for their ability to survive the vacuum of space for at least a few days, and then come back and be unfazed to do some insects have got ability as well. I mean, let's let's just talk about arachnids because they are off though. So just just taking scorpions which is a kind of arachnoid those scorpions in caves hundred meters below sea level and their scorpions in the Alps there scorpions in every ecosystem on earth, with the exception of the Arctic and Arctic. So I think that that just goes to show that that in just this one organism it's persisted for four hundred and fifty million years on this planet. It is really really good at adapting incredibly harsh environments from the dry desert to the most humid tropical forests all the way up to like cold freezing temperatures that where there's almost permafrost year round. So so just in this one example of arachnids, and there's there's lots of different kinds of arachnids, spiders mites. There's there's daddy long legs or harvest men. We we call them. So that's that's just talking about. Iraq, news, never mind all the insects, which which outnumber the arachnids by far in terms of both the diversity of the different kinds that are out there. But also like she your number. So it's thorough ability to manage those extreme points because even in the Alps, there's days where it's like, you know, the tropics it's really hot outside, and that's the they can just take advantage of that by shutting down in a sense during the coldest periods and that ability to shut down its thanks in part, the having their skull on the outside and being able to close off all their places, they breathe in just kind of almost hibernate for a few hours, even but others can actually throw any freeze to their whole body and produce thrown antifreeze, and they can survive. So there's all these like re-, I think really ingenious for lack of a better word adaptations that we see insects and arachnids just here on this planet that that I would say are what allow them to withstand some incredibly harsh conditions like I would imagine on on other planets. But then again, maybe other planets are like, quite nice and luxurious. And we've really don't know. Guess. Maybe it's best that we don't know. We don't learn that. We're like, oh, man. We have been on other planets really mosquito free its earth. I agree losing its charm in some places, thanks to. But. It is our are beautiful blue planet. Well, as part of the beauty to me in animals and insects are their intelligence. And I think we oftentimes underestimate their intelligence or don't really. Recognize intelligence and other creatures or sometimes like uttering of intelligence, the intelligence that we see in the film. We see the law of different species working together, we see this huge brain bug that they're trying to service that's sort of like a Queen bee analog, what sorts of intelligence did you see in the film. And how does that like hold up to intelligence as as you see in your studies? That's interesting question because. In others. Make a great example of of comparing the so in ans-, you have high intelligence, you could say, which means they can communicate and I didn't really see much communication going on in the film and with the brain and. The other species, and it could be that they they're just different castes. It could just be the same species to be saw and just like and save you've all have some federal soldiers and some data that a little workers and stuff. And that's the billions of ants people say answers will great because they're they worked together like a family their social, but it's actually more than that. It's it's incredible. Because they have different sizes. You can have a large amount and a small end, and it could be almost one hundred times in size difference. And this that differences allows them to actually take on different jobs. Just like we saw in the film. It's cooperative intelligence. It's cooperative intelligence and division of labor intelligence, and you know, that if you took an ant colony and counted all the neurons in it, it'd be about as many neurons as a human so neural capacity event colonies, but as much as. A human. But that Breen had a big brain in the movie that so a lot of neurons in there before we get to do on with this episode. I wanna let you know that offering is made possible with support from emerald code on sort of TV an amazing show for teachers, and parents, we know how hard it can be to get the younger people in your life to embrace stem fields. Especially young women emerald code is a series that really focuses on helping younger people grow their interest in stem by showing how they can use these concepts of solve problems in real life. The series provides great role models for young people who might be a bit shy about stepping into. Scientific communities are interested in checkout. Sorta TV for lots more stem content, like their DIY experiment show Stimlje and decoded which focuses on real girls making a difference in stem fields. Subscribe to the sorta TV channel at YouTube dot com slash sorta TV or if you're watching the video by clicking on links in the description. Below once again, that's YouTube dot com slash S. O RTA TV now back to the conversation about with Iraq nights. Do you see as many communities sort of based intelligence or not so much Indian? Generally, speaking arachnids are not cooperative. They live individually, and maybe come together for the purposes of reproduction, so in some cases, males and females will raise eggs semi co-operatively oven. We see things like maternal care where the moms taking care of either the eggs or the eggs and the babies once they hatch or the eggs and the babies once they hatch after they grew up for a while. So we see that kind of cooperation we don't see ever see the level of cooperation or or collective intelligence like we do in ants and other social insects. But I mean, I think that there's that there's certainly. Some clear indication that there's an intelligence present in the tiny little cluster of neurons that we call brain and arachnids, for example, there's a jumping spider that lives in Australia, and it feeds on -squitoes only. It's just a mosquito eater. But this this little it actually prefers to eat mosquitoes that have been blood fed, so it's able to detect blood fed mosquitoes, and then preferentially eat them, and it doesn't do this from birth. Actually learns that it prefers to feed on these. But but mosquitoes it learned through itself are through watching others. It's unclear whether it learns on its own just from eating or whether learns from watching others, but but we know that it prefers the blood fed mosquitoes efforts, experienced bloodshed mosquitoes, and we see this all the time and this kind of learning where where arachnids. Learn to modify their behavior based on past experiences. So I just I was just listening to a presentation last week at a wreck -nology conference. And this one was about whether certain spiders preferred to live with sorry to live with to mate with with male spiders that look like their father or to mate with male spiders that look like a different kind of variation on the morphology. And it turns out that they prefer to mate with the ones that they see another female meeting with right? So if I see a female meeting with like their contained, right? So they can just see like through class. Yeah. They can see a female meeting with one kind of of mail like color or size, or whatever. Then they'll once they reach sexual maturity, they'll prefer to mate with that male. So this actually like clear demonstration of learning behavioral interactions. Oh, just like the ones in the movie. Yeah. Well, also, so there was a lot of depiction in the movie of different weaponry that sort of these these creatures have and we see things like. A almost a fire-breathing beetle. No. That was clearly a bomber beetle. Right. It's clearly chemicals sprayed together, and they just blow up. That's exactly that's that's out of their mouth. You have to explain that. What happens in real life with these people's just a bump users to post signs to do the same thing. But the Bombardier's of the classic famous ones where as a defense they throw to chemicals together and those and they basically like push them out of the air holes in the side of their bodies. So they have like little glands and right next to the where their goals are. And they just kind of like push them out. And it sprays this chemical out into the into the air when they're like getting attacked. And it's like, it's chemical burn. It's acid institute. There's a kamikaze aunt that blows himself up when it's being attacked take down its predators. It's pretty that's kind of cool. So, you know, we talked about how the impaling and everything wasn't very realistic. But in feeling is realistic for something if you're piercing sucking mouth parts are the usual tool for piercing when. The when they went into the brain. That was classic Reggie via Di it's a that has a piercing sucking mouth part that goes into its prey kissing bug. Oh, lovely or the assassin bug. Okay. So they definitely chose there. Actually seen one sitting on a leaf with another kind of bug a little plant bug impaled through its rostrum through its beep. Oh my God. It's terrifying. Yeah. That does all terrifying. So what other weapons did we see sort of in the movie, we saw was kind of like crazy beak mandible thing. And for me when I saw those I just thought Hercules beetles because they have these horns that they used for male male combat actually, so so they use them inspiring. And it's it's for this Spar over access to females which don't have horns. And that's the first thing. I thought when I saw those those like big horn kind of mouth parts because as we're explaining in morphology function is often depicted in the morphology, right? So the muscle attachments and its function you can get from looking at it. But there's one thing I couldn't figure out looking at the brain. This is what we produce. Like, maybe it wasn't all Brandon and was just all reproductive could have been Orient's. Yeah. Could've been just like a. A joint termite or clean and kind of looks like a giant termite. Yeah. And we also saw again be too like. The like ones that had like fire fire bug firefly sort of back, and that sort of lit up and then lit up the sky with firework. Like is there something I think that was. Yeah, I think that was bombed that you're beautiful. But there was another one that was actually throwing spores. Right. Yeah. Which is a big part of the whole plot of the movie is this whole like are they attacking us? I guess we have to tag them and all the propaganda associated with that. And I don't know like to my knowledge, I don't know of any any insects that reproduce kind of spinal only like that. But because insects are really just crustaceans they did at some point reproduce bodily. Not too far off base. Okay. So my final question for both of you is what sort of bugs in space movie. Would you like to see we talked a lot about how this sort of demonize is bugs a lot insects, and what sort of bugs in space movie, would you like to see or or what sort of aspects? Would you like to be illuminated about the reality of many insects in Iraq meds? And then I personally I liked this movie. Like, I think it's great. It's hilarious is like there's a lot going on. There's lots of things to laugh about and certainly there's a lot of depiction of these animals that draws from nature, even if it's not entirely accurate. But that's that's like what imagination is right? It's the best. I think many of the best aspects of our imagination are drawing from real life. Like the scariest movies like alien predator. Anything like that it draws from nature league. I see that as an entomologist isn't Iraq is I know exactly what they were looking at when they first designed this. But, but you know, what I guess like I I would be hard pressed to say what I would like to see in a movie, what do you think? I don't know if you took it as bugs from earth, and then they went to space, what would the involve into what kind of societies and experiment on. Yes. So we took insects from this idea that life is just. Just like almost DNA. That's being thrown around everywhere. You now some DNA stick some denied destined. So we're earth is out. And it could be in the form of bugs, it could be in the form of rockets. They resist a lot. So maybe it's a scorpion. Because it just resists everywhere just say beauty out, and it's just floating through space. You know, they are Thursdays. And then it lands on this nice juicy planet. This is the lovely and what's going to happen next. Well, if it's a female Lennon's pregnant has babies has babies, and then this is the beginning of a great movie, she's going to change your career. And now it's going to direct new movie on scorpions and space face for being squirt full totally walks that well, thank you both so much for being on the show today. Thank you. You. Ariel. When you said you wanted to do an episode about starship troopers, there's so many space related things. And that film is at the, hyper tribes system is politics in the future in chose bugs. And that was super interesting. Yeah. Bugs and space. I think is a pretty awesome topic and to have two people who actually specialize in bugs talking about all the things that were realistic. And not was really really fascinating. Because there is just tons of stuff that I was like clearly that's fake that doesn't happen in real life. They're like, oh, no. That's a real bug. Right. Right. Because you think that as the filmmakers made the film, but they're probably inspired by bugs. But they took a lot of liberties. And they took a seriously like talked about how there were true things like wasn't just dismissed as a silly movie character or plot point. Yeah. It actually made me appreciate starship trooper is that much more because I felt that they did as good as they could. And I feel like even though is a film from nineteen Ninety-seven. It's still absolutely holds up because everything sort of done in the same. Visual consistency and everything sort of just is held together. Really? Well, so I think it's a good film. If you haven't watched it recently to rewatch it holds up. Well, I think before we started recording. We're talking about the kids stumping on the bugs being a tragic moment that I did not empathize with that. When I I watched the movie, and I've come all the way around. Yes. I don't kill the bugs on those specific Madagascar cockroaches. Very cool. Well, thank you so much for listening to the soda or watching episode off world is available as a podcast as well. If you don't know you can also find a test dot com slash off world, the whole library episodes. And we've back next time with another space talk.

Iraq Iraq Madagascar Dr Brian Fisher California academy of sciences Ariel Waldman Chan Lauren Vilnai YouTube Dr Loren Esposito Alps Aleutian Africa Amena Gasco John grizzlies zoo Jurassic Park grizzlies
Twitters Redesign Is Impressive. Is It Enough?

Gadget Lab Podcast

50:37 min | 2 years ago

Twitters Redesign Is Impressive. Is It Enough?

"So you want to grow your business now what the all in one marketing platform by mail chimp that's what it has all the marketing tools you need in one place so you can save time and money learn more at male chimp dot com hi everyone i'm michael glory i'm an editor wired and you are listening to the gadget lab the podcast where we talk about the latest gadgets apps and services that you need to know about and how the impact our lives i'm joined by co-hosts r._e._o. parties senior associate editor wired hello hello senior writer at wire hello on today's show we're going to be talking about twitter the good the bad the recent redesign r._l. here had a great exclusive story on wire dot com earlier this week about twitter's attempt to as she put it build a community garden in the middle of some field has become a toxic swamp that's right i have been spending the past couple of weeks hanging out at twitter talking to their design team talking to some of the co-founders <hes> and just a quick spoiler the redesigned does is not including edit button there's plenty more to talk about and we will get into all of it on today show yes in before we talk about twitter let's get into the news and arielle one of you go i happily so if it feels like you've aged about fifty years this week don't panic it's not the state of the news it's not the impending threat of climate change a nuclear war it's an app cult face app you likely seen some photos making the rounds this week from face app which uses some clever a._i. to make people look old old <hes> the way it works download this app you upload a photo it adds some carefully placed wrinkles and jowls and grey hairs to make the people in the photo looked geriatric kind of weird i saw really creepy one where someone did this to her child who was elementary school age and the result was frightening but of course as soon as millions of people have uploaded photos of their faces to this app the privacy bell starring because remember we've been here before not once not twice but every every time an app encourages us to upload our personal photos to it service people start to say wait a minute where are those photos going friday i remember this happened with the metoo app spelled m. e. i. t. you a different from the metoo movement and there are concerns because of the invasive permissions requests that they were asking and the thing about face app is that it itself is actually not new right they've done this before that's right there is actually a scandal about this back in two thousand seventeen when this app i made the rounds <hes> people were putting pictures of themselves they were making themselves like old among other things i can you could also change a photo to make somebody smile which is creepy so what can these companies do with the photos you send them well whatever ever they want they can build out facial recognition databases they can sell those photos to bigger companies fees apps terms of service says that includes a quote perpetual irrevokable non-exclusive royalty free worldwide fully paid transferable sub-licensed people licensed wants to use reproduce modify adapt published translate creed derivative works from distribute per publicly perform and display your user content and name so that's concerning they own you basically do they they do a face and what are you get an exchange for this well you've got a photo of yourself looking old so i mean we've been through this time and time again i remember hearing similar outrage when google had their app that google would let you upload a photo and then compare yourself yourself to a work of art and of course what does google do with those photos while whatever they want <hes> so i think it's just something to keep in mind as these things continue to pop up our colleague brian barrett made a great point this week in a wired story where he pointed out that like yes this is something to be concerned about but it's also something that we need to be more aware of in all of our daily activities online including services like facebook which also have incredibly liberal licensing agreements and own lots of your personal photos as well it seems like there were a lot of initial concerns about the fact that this company is based in saint petersburg russia and so just the early reactions may be perhaps not very well thought out where oh my goodness this is coming from a a foreign country in a foreign entity in one that's been known for interference in some of our democratic initiatives and so we should be very concerned about this when in reality there plenty of homegrown apps here in the united states and elsewhere that just have similarly invasive <hes> permissions requests and <hes> overarching policies around what they can do with your data and that's the thing we actually need to be worried about not necessarily it's the geography of where the apps being developed right and we should note that while face app is a company that is based in in russia their servers are actually hosted in the united states so if your concern is that these things are getting circulated to the russian government well i don't know perhaps that's true but it appears to be you're concerned should be about the advancement of time that causes aging on your body safe right stay off twitter seriously well if you spend any time at all poking around the internet at the beginning of this week and you're not looking at face at post than you were most certainly made aware in one one way or another of prime day the shopping holiday of amazon's invention spend two full days this year monday july fifteenth and tuesday july sixteenth during those today's the company encouraged people to sign up for amazon on prime if they hadn't already so they can take advantage of steep deals on everything from home electronics pants and socks and stuffed animals now we're probably never going to know exactly how much money amazon made from prime day or how many people signed up for amazon amazon prime so that they could access the savings because amazon doesn't often release hard numbers about its business in fact aiden almost never released hard numbers about any part of their business however we do know a few things <hes> first of all primary was still huges ever in much bigger than ever and not just for amazon there were something like two hundred thirty two hundred forty other retailers that also held their own competing sales events like like walmart and target and best buy like basically any big retail you can think of countered amazon's programming with their own programming which was pretty cool because as we all know there are a lot of people who are very upset with amazon because of their poor labor track record and that's another thing that prime m._d. really exposed to us as it really brought to light a lot of <hes> the poor the poor tracker that amazon has been exhibiting over the last few years <hes> in its warehouse workers and the people who deliver the packages to your home <hes> in fact during prime day there was a walkout staged at an amazon warehouse in chakothi minnesota which is near minneapolis <hes> there were over one hundred employees that stop working for six hours on monday in protest of poor working conditions and and one of the big things that they were protesting was something that amazon calls speed quotas which <hes> dictate how quickly the people pull things off the shelves and put them into the packaging q. <hes> and if they are too slow they get fired <hes> if they take take a more than a certain number of hours off unpaid they get fired you know they it's basically unless you're working yourself to the bone it's very easy to lose your job if you're working in an amazon warehouse <hes> that is the that is the main thing that they were trying to draw attention to and it is also the thing that almost stole the news cycle away from prime day deals themselves <hes> i don't know i just looking at the news on monday in tuesday i saw a lot more people talking about boycotting amazon talking about buying nothing on prime day more so than people talking about some sick deal the big out on a toaster totally yeah i would love to see some numbers and perhaps this is something we could even do of the average average discount that was really offered because sometimes the deals don't seem all of that all that great i think generally the concept of prime day is brilliant for amazon if you think about it where about halfway through the year we're not yet at the holiday season is post mas mother's day a post father's day but we're not yet entered into the back to school season people are generally taking summer vacation perhaps buying online is not their primary concern right now so amazon is launched prime day time of year when people like maybe aren't thinking about shopping quite as much and yet they put shopping right at the forefront of people's mind and to your point not it's not just for amazon it's for its for retailers like walmart and target to who this ends up being boon for that's at i am by anything i was like i just kind of checked out of it and <hes> didn't see anything that really jumped out at me r._e._o. i know you've got a different experience though i feel tremendous shame recounting this story but i was one of those people who was like amazon amazon is kind of messed up <hes> i want to support these people who are protesting their labor practices and more importantly this is a holiday invented by the richest man on earth to promote his capitalist agenda <hes> <hes> i want no part in that but then i saw deal i had been in the market for a blender and i had asked for some advice from our brilliant kitchen gadget reviewer joe ray he is like the best in the business and he said listen you know you can get a cheaper blender but i really recommend getting vitamix and just waiting for one to go on sale and i am deny hod because they never go on sale and lo and behold i get a text from joe ray that says this he's vitamix is discounted forty percent off reader i bought it have you used the yet no adjust arrive oh boy wait what are you going to make smoothies milkshakes my <music> own almond butter i don't know i thought i had was are you gonna bring me almond butter and i will make a question for you how much do you think prime day actually matters for amazon <hes> well it's it's hard to know <hes> because it's one of those companies that is kind of inscrutable from the outside but <hes> you know it's a huge marketing event for them everybody's talking about prime day of course amazon amazon wants everybody really talking about deals and signing up for prime <hes> basically if they get more people to sign up for amazon prime they win and i think that they most certainly do because the only way to access these deals is is to become a prime member and a lot of people point out that like prime membership is one hundred thirteen hundred forty dollars a year if you sign up for it just the deals that you can get on prime day alone are enough for it to make sense for you financially to sign up so i think as long as that argument is out there and as long as at mathworks out in consumers favor amazon is going to get more people to sign up for prime once you signed up for prime they've got you and your customer and you're gonna use the more frequently arguing watch their videos served advertisements <hes> <hes> so yes i think it's still a big deal for them and it still one of the most important <hes> weeks of the year for them just membership drive exactly exactly well lauren what you tell us about this week in e lon i was gonna say your answer was much more nuance than me being crab ass and being like people aren't shopping there by the pool but you're totally writing not all of us rhyme not all of us were enjoying a parisian in getaway prime was not thinking about buying dangles and gadgets bath mat it was even prime daily had to buy oh no i was told i was told they're better be newbath men in the bat Rip The electrical strip that you buy like because you have to many gadgets lying around okay anyway. I never think to buy them it would do. I'm so glad I bought one buddy Elon Musk because it's always fun to talk about Elon Musk and this time the man wants to put a computer in your brain this past Tuesday Tuesday night at a presentation at the California Academy of Sciences Elon Musk announced the first initiative from his company called Neuro Link and guys. It's GonNa blow your minds got it okay. Here's what it it's it's a tiny computer chip that musk envisions will be stitched to our brains by a robot Adam Rogers our colleague at wired covered this for us and he has all the details. Adam writes that the chip is custom built to receive and process the electrical action potentials that signal activity in the neurons in your brain then the chip is connected to wires that embedded to your brain tissues received these spikes and a robotic sewing machine is what puts those wires there with quote unquote enviable precision. So what does this actually supposed to do. Basically it would turn your brains activity to machine readable code that a computer can understand and when you think about it there are lots of noble or helpful ways in which this could be used as Adam points out <hes> even if this does seem like the neural lace of science fiction nightmares it's like you could. I don't know something like this could help a blind person see or could help person control their prosthetic from their mind. The thing is though that this is going to inevitably take a while musk says he hopes to have this in a human patient by the end of next year. Lots of tests are going to happen. I other companies like facebook have been working on some kind of mine. Reading Technology Darpa has been funding brain computer interface research since the nineteen seventies <hes> now Adam does point out that the neural inc product revealed by musk does take this a seemingly different technical direction in some way but I think is if to say it might still be awhile before we see some effort like this come to fruition yeah and this estimation that he's going to have this in in human clinical trials within the next year seems completely bogus completely completely it was interesting to see at this event yuan announced that they had begun work in primates studies and the seemed to not just surprise the audience but in fact his team who seemed a bit like Whoa were. We supposed to talk about that <hes> because up until this point they've done some studies in rodents which you know any science reporter will tell you doesn't really show a lot about efficacy or safety <hes> so it seems like the timeline of the trials is very very off but what I find so interesting about neural link. Is that like many other <hes> Breen computer interface start ups Yulon's idea is that this isn't ultimately four people who are dealing with brain injuries right. He has his idea that originally it will be used for people who have paralysis or perhaps people who are quadriplegics just sort of connect parts of their brains that have become disconnected from the rest of their body but ultimately he sees this as a way to make us superhuman away way to tap into the brain as like a human A._p._i.. And connect us with our devices around us and that just seems like a very elon musk idea right it's totally muskie and we're going to Mars your brain's will be connected to the computers and our cars will fly yeah the problem with that argument and it's something that Adam does a very good job pointing out <hes> in his story which everybody should absolutely read if you're interested in neural inc the problem that argument is that like anybody who looks looks at a device like this and extrapolates that that is what it is going to be able to do <hes> does not understand how the human brain works because nobody understands how the human brain works like we know where the outputs are but we don't know where the inputs are so to be able to make the brain do something that the brain does not already want to do is still a huge mystery and that's not the type of research at these guys are doing so. It's going to be able to help the brain make connections that previously it could not make but it's not going to be like you're not going to be able to insert thoughts into people's head or have telepathic conversations one of the things that that must actually said during the press conference this week was if two people have neuro links they'll be able to have telepathic conversations consensual telepathic consensual anyway bonkers but still kind of interesting that you know the billionaires worlders spending their money not necessarily on toys but things that might prove to be helpful yes yes. Let's hope or the stuff of science addiction nightmares all right so this point. Let's take a quick break and when we come back Arielle. We're going to grill you about everything new. That's happening in the world of twitter and their website redesign so you wanna grow your business now. What male chimps all in one marketing platform? That's what it has all the marketing tools you need in one place so you can save time and money and it's powered by marketing C._R._M.. So you can collect organize and understand your audience data and make smarter martyr marketing choices now what male champ that's what learn more at male chimp dot COM R._E._O.. You've been spending a lot of time inside twitter Lee reporting on how the company is reinventing in how the website looks to the outside world. They say they're doing this in an attempt to improve the overall user experience and it's the first major redesign of twitter in years. Tell us all about it yeah so this is the first web redesign redesign in seven years which in twitter time is like a hundred years <hes> this actually began not as a design project and more like an engineering project the web technology stack had not been updated in in like almost a decade and so it was becoming really hard for twitter engineers to build new features to make improvements or to add things to the website that they'd already added to the mobile site so a couple years ago some engineers at twitter. We're like hey we. Maybe maybe work on fixing this that design team got involved. It became a nice little internal project and then along the way some product folks and design folks said it might be time to make this more of like a proper visual refresh for our community and that really dovetailed nicely with some other things that twitter was talking about <hes> this was in two thousand seventeen when the project sort of I began or the idea of a redesigned I began and around twenty seventeen <hes> a lot of interesting things are happening at twitter right. You're seeing the rise as of political twitter right like at real. Donald Trump has made twitter a really big destination all of a sudden <hes> and in part because of that you're seeing a lot of sort of squabbling and infighting and <hes> trolling happening on the platform form and you're starting to see twitter respond to this out of sort of policy level where they're saying okay. What is twitter really for? How do people need to use it? How do we make this experience more conversational more pleasant more productive <hes> and and and one of the ways that they're trying to do that with design so air go the redesign? What are some of the significant changes? We've seen this redesign. Yes I made a list of them. Actually it's a bunch of little things so when I I thought I thought this doesn't seem drastically different <hes> and that is very intentional. They've done a lot of fairy small incremental changes so the first thing notices that they've changed the design to where it's now three columns on the right. You're going to see all your navigation nation IDA icons which were previously at the top so things like your tab for direct messages your Tab to get to your lists the top to get your profile like that's all nicely collated in the left side column now and the Ray Column is devoted entirely to search explore so this is something that twitter's been trying to emphasize for a long time people come to twitter in some cases to follow their friends or to like see why their colleagues are up to you but in a lot of cases people are coming to discover do things and like connect with communities and people that they may be don't connect with offline so they've made searching explore much more prominent and then in the middle they've devoted that your tweets and your <hes> compose box which is now a little bit easier to compose tweets in some other quick things that they've done <hes> they've added dark mode which was on the mobile APP and on the website. They've allowed you to customize some things like the size of the taxed in your accent color <hes> they've added Ed this feature called switch which allows you to switch between chronological order and the Algorithm order which wasn't on the website before and this is great people love that <hes> they've also like added a couple other things like they noticed that a lot of their our users in Japan had multiple accounts and we're trying to switch between these accounts all the time but there was no easy to do that on twitter's they've added multi-count support <hes> which makes it much easier to use twitter in that way if that's how you use twitter okay okay that sounds great but what about the edit button yeah yeah. That's that's that's not going to happen yeah. One of one of the things I discovered reporting this story that I think anyone who's ever been on twitter experienced isn't twitter. There's something very frustrating about talking to people who work at twitter who are so earnest and love the product and really WanNa make a good experience but seem very limited and and how they can do that and one one of the things that keeps coming up is like twitter users really want an edit button. They really want stronger policies around harassment and hate speech. They really want products that make it easier to have a cohesive have conversation with a bunch of different people and instead of delivering those things twitter says ou but what if you could change your accent color but what if you could switch between your gowns and people are like yeah that's nice but like that's not what we asked for. Yeah there is there is this weird sort of dissonance between like the the absolutely <hes> objectively problematic things about twitter and the things that they keep concentrating on and I think you know they have made some some strides towards that in recent weeks right there was the the change <hes> that they made recently to their policy that <hes> if there is a public figure who has said something that's inaccurate on twitter that they would attach a little flag I to it saying that it's inaccurate <hes> but then you know just a couple of days ago. Twitter also changes policy to say that <hes> if you are I think it's a very verified user you can <hes> mute comments below tweet so if you tweet something that is inaccurate you can then silence the people who were pointing out the inaccuracy cool yeah so it's like they're all of these weird things that keep happening. That aren't necessarily addressing the issue at feels like they're making a decision that they think is going to help address the issue in just ends up not arial. I'm curious with the people who you spoke to at twitter and people who seem like they do want to affect more change the platform what is preventing them from doing it. Is it Jack Dorsey <hes> at the top of twitter. Is it something else or someone else second wondering how that hierarchy kind of exists in twitter between the design team and the people were ultimately ultimately making decisions. I think that's a great question. <hes> <hes> and it's hard to get a straight answer on that right because no one at twitter on the design team or elsewhere is going to say like on the low we all really want to edit button to but uncle jacqueline let us have it and I don't think that's how it probably hashes out anyway. The answer I kept hearing over and over is that twitter is trying to turn a corner where it's doing things differently. It's a little more grown up and it's trying to be mindful about the changes that it's releasing so it's experimenting a little bit more and I think some of he's policies around hiding comments or like flagging certain tweets those are all examples of experiments that might not last but they're sort of twitter throwing something out there and seeing what happens and their approach seems to be yeah the that they are interested in things like an edit button they are interested in things like hiding metrics but they wanna be really thoughtful about how they're releasing those and something I kept hearing over and over about the redesign is that represents this sort of big sea change in the way. That twitter can release those things because now the technology stock is a little more modern. The visual components are all lined a little bit better and everyone is sort of on the same page about where they think twitter is headed personally. I think twitter is going through through a bit of an existential crisis and I think it's Ben going through an existential crisis for almost as long as it's existed so one of the things that the design team has been responsible for is showing the world what twitter is and who it's four and how people are supposed to use use it and the way that they've made design decisions has really changed the answer those questions over time right so there's a period when twitter was all about the news and they were making it really prominent where you could find news and who follow who was relieved the news then they scrape they said no twitter about finding events. They made that really prominent than they've changed their mind and say like no twitter's about your family in your friends like no twitter is about <hes> the people you're not really friends with in real life but your friends with on the Internet and now they're new answer to this is that twitter is about out conversations which is so abstract and has so many different meanings that it feels like they haven't quite honed in on how they want to present themselves and how to translate that in a way that's communicable to its users. It feels like like trying to battle forest fires in California watching them. Try to maintain twitter. I mean if you go all the way back to what was probably their first scandal when they were growing exponentially in like two thousand eight two thousand nine nine the whole thing was people just didn't understand what it was so part of what they were doing for the on boarding was they were giving you suggested users right people that you should follow because if you follow these people you'll get a very good sense of what twitter is so they were hand picking people to follow and of course when you have a bunch of you know twenty-something male engineers in an office in San Francisco taking who are the people to amplify on the platform. You're going to alienate a lot of people people. You'RE GONNA make people get the wrong idea about the platform who don't share your views right. This was a huge problem because the suggested users list they called it. You remember that yeah I was GonNA sorry to interrupt no no I was just GonNa say also a lot of the people they were suggesting. Follow were twitter employees putting themselves on there and if you got onto the suggested users list it was like Oh sweet I'm on the suggested uses less than than all of a sudden people would start yelling out. You and you're like what is going on so I mean they've always sort of had that weird crisis of identity and now for them to just say like whereabout conversations that's what they should have been saying all along and they should have been looking at building in features that could foster conversation things that make the conversation easier make it you know make less friction towards reaching out to somebody asking a question getting an answer and having that come through all the noise in a clear way yeah I think it's too soon to see like how they honed whom that identity and if they're successful <hes> and I think we're redesigning a very small piece of that and certainly not the entire picture but I do think it's worth mentioning that they've been on this conversation push for a long time now <hes> almost as long as they've been working on the redesign they've been tooling with his idea healthy conversations which is an entire team at twitter who does product in engineering and design <hes> and his sort of experimenting with what it means to have healthy conversations again. I think a lot of the work out of that team has been in a little abstract but I do think that talking to the people there there is a sense that everyone is trying to figure out what this means and they're at least united in this idea of what twitter is in twenty nineteen <hes> and that is perhaps perhaps cause for hope. That's good self. Awareness is always good. How do you feel about twitter in general right now? How do you feel you're on it weird? The redesign has made it weirder. Why's that <hes> well okay so for me? Twitter has always been a news firehose right. It's always been it just basically can R._S._S. feed of everything. That's happening on the Internet. That's the way I've always viewed it right. The redesign makes it feel less like that. <hes> I think something about not having everything be bigger in three column layout in the Browser makes it so that I can't scan as many tweets with my is vertically as it used to be able to so it feels like I'm having to scroll a lot more and it's harder harder to consume as much information at the same time with the new redesign. I feel like <hes> the other thing about the swish that I really don't like <hes> sorry <hes> it's honestly like the reason has really changed changed a lot about how about twitter so <hes> in the in the redesign there are two options is. It's just like this in the mobile APP right now. They're two options for how you order your feed and it's a it's a S- electable <hes> drop down at the top of the screen was called home. The other is called most recent tweets right so home is the algorithm mic ordering. It's basically the things that see the most engagement show up at the top just like a facebook feed just like an instagram feed. It's it's that type of arrangement for it right. Most recent tweets is O._G.. Twitter it's like exactly what it says right you see the most recent like five seconds go nine seconds ago seventeen seconds ago in order reverse crown order going down the page so that is my preferred method for consuming twitter a lot of people who I know who are on twitter all day other journalists Rowsley they consume twitter the same way now. If I close my tab at the end of the day and then I reopened the tab tomorrow it resets back to home view the algorithm view. It doesn't hold your chosen view as a user preference in any way if you close the tab which I think is really bad and when you do that drop down this a little link for or see your feed settings to customize how you see your feed you click on the link and you go through the menu trie to try and find the check box says always show me recent tweets. I that check box does not exist. At least I have not been able to find it and I spent seriously twenty minutes yesterday looking for it. I'm looking for right now and you're right. It doesn't exist so it keeps pushing you back to the algorithm view that after this too but the APP only does it when you like update the APP so if you have your upset the auto update every two weeks or so you'll open twitter and he'd be like what the Hell's going on my twitter feed wise of all jacked right. Oh it's because it's switched back to the rhythmic view. Apathy says something from like twenty two hours ago but was really popular instead of showing you whatever you just opened on at that moment yes the so for people who prefer to not how the algorithm put things out of order and prefer to see them in the order in which they arrived that's big problem <hes> and for me it's made it's made a using twitter more frustrating and were distracting because I'm always looking at the top of the screen to wonder if it's switched back to that <hes> and that would be a real easy thing to build in that would just give people like a little bit more customization of their experience. I think about this a lot with the the metrics ext thing which is to be clear not a part of the redesign but something that people have been asking for for really longtime and Jack Dorsey has acknowledged is a good idea which is getting rid of some of the metrics around lakes tweets followers stuff like that I._D.. Metric hated my twitter using browser extension last year and it's delightful. It is damn delightful and every time I use twitter on my phone where I don't have this extension plugged in. I feel worse and it feels like one windows things. That wouldn't be that hard for twitter to let you opt into like I understand that maybe there are reasons for keeping that for everyone but like it just feels like not that not that big of a deal to say like. Would you like to hide the numbers numbers like please check this box and then it could just do it. Why the metrics are important to me? y'All gonNa re tweet something if something's already been re tweeted like eight thousand times. I'M NOT GONNA re tweet it see you've been manipulated by social media. If you feel that way I have been but wonder and change they so they probably are concerned about taking away the incentive based elements of twitter if you do that that someone is someone's going to get you know it's like asking someone to post on Instagram facebook. If they're going to get alike and get that dopamine hit and or you have your near less informed in some ways of how people are engaging with your content. We should note that autumn Massery who runs instagram has already de medicated instagram not in the U._S. but in many of their mortgage rates so it's not impossible they they can do it right very much choice. <hes> is is sort of how I feel about it like it's very much choice that these technology companies could be making if they thought that it was good further users and Laura and I think you've hit on exactly the right thing which is that the choices aren't always made because they're good for the users. There may be good for the company. Oh right I mean as with all tech companies blanket statement right most of the time they're doing it because it's good for the company <hes> to reference Orioles <hes> really mentioned of our Capitalistic Society But <hes> my biggest gripe with the new redesign that it feels like a web it feels like a desktop APP in a web in a web browser her and <hes> I kind of liked the gritty <hes> potentially unpolished unfinished website element of old twitter <hes> and then I have some small quibbles to look. I don't like now where they put the copy is linked to tweet. I think it's at the bottom top and that's really so they move into the share Arrow instead of the top drop down <hes>. I don't like that the right tweet button as in writes <hes> W are our I._T.. To create a tweet is all the way down at the bottom left now. I feel like that should be near the top <hes> oh it is near the top. Though there's the what's happening box. Yeah you can just start typing. Oh cool things about this ticket back now. It's easier to compose a tweet <hes> without leaving your feed that is true. That's true okay now that you've pointed that out. I'm really glad this is a good. This is a good new twitter twitter workshop <hes> <hes> something that I think we're sort of touching on here that is something twitter and every other big company has to deal with when they issue a redesign is like how much is changing version and how much is people genuinely disliking what you've rolled out and I think with twitter. This has been a big question <hes> it's taken them two years to issue this web redesign and along the way they've tried to be really mindful of how users are going to react so they've sort of sent out these little experiments along the way so certain portion of users were enrolled in an experiment that showed what it would look like at the search bar were put in a different spot and then they like watched what people did and they had this survey where you you can send twitter designers. Your feedback and twitter's design team told me that they got over two hundred thousand submissions that they read personally and tried their best to incorporate into how they designed this now I think I think that falls on deaf ears a lot of times. I personally got a lot of tweets after the story saying it's a lie that twitter designers were open to feedback. It's a lie they didn't listen to me. I hate this change it back and I understand that you know some people feel that way. I think the team is trying to be really mindful mindful of making that distinction between where the things where people have genuine complaints that can be addressed and where are the cases where people just are adverse to change and an uncomfortable because something isn't a different spot. Now I mean I mean that's every company goes through that whenever they make radical redesign unfortunately <hes> you can't make everybody happy. No you can't especially not on twitter especially not on twitter. We'll look we have to wrap up this conversation <hes> but thank you telling us all about twitter new website redesign. How can people see it? Well you can see it by logging onto twitter dot com and if you haven't already been enrolled in the new design you will likely see something on either the right or the. Left column that says we have a new design tickle or something like that yeah yeah see the next version of you click on a big blue button and then you're in it that it reload Z- <hes> all right well. Let's take a quick break and we come back will drill down down into some recommendations support for this podcast comes from smart water. Smart water is for the curious fresh thinkers the ones who asked questions and are never satisfied with the norm the ones who believe even doing things the smart way even if it's as simple as drinking water. That's why smart water is proud to introduce new smart water alkaline an antioxidant designed to enhance the every day new smart water alkaline has nine plus Ph for <unk> hydration after working up a sweat and new smart water antioxidant has added Selenium both with the smart water taste you know in love hydration with your body and mind in mind smart water. That's pretty smart. Do you use the same password for every APP and website. That's a terrible idea you know this and the experts no this. You need to have a strong unique password for every website you log into but you're never going to remember them all and that's why you need Dash Lane Dash Leeann is the only one stop shop security that secures every aspect of your online life. You never have to remember then type a password on a log in page again because Daschle and keeps track of every one of your passwords and automatically interested when you log in the APP is basically a digital. It'll bodyguard. It protects your sensitive information. It securely auto fills web forms. It has the best in Class V._P._N.. It sends you breach alerts and it'll even monitor activity on the dark web to see if your data's being bought and sold the APP is a Rockstar on the APP store it has four point seven stars and his currently used by more than ten million people take control of your online info this summer and join them right now. GO TO DASH DOT COM slash gadget for thirty day free trial of Dash Lane premium and this summer only you'll get ten percent often you sign up. That's a thirty day free trial and ten percent off dash lean premium at dash lean dot com slash gadget. That's dash lane dot com slash gadget. It's time for recommendations. Whoop Whoop Yeah we recommend in addition to spending some time on the new twitter APP <hes>? What are we recommending this week Arielle? Why don't you start sure I would like to recommend an excellent resource for when you feel a little bit out of the loop? It is a red at community called called our slash out of the loop and I discovered this last week when I logged onto read it and I started seeing a bunch of memes about aliens and I was like white and they were like from so many different communities that I couldn't and figure out what was tying them altogether. There were like aliens showing up in your bedroom late at night. There were like aliens at Strip clubs very confusing so I went to our slash out of the loop and sure enough there is a post it was like hate water all these alien memes and then it links to a bunch of helpful resources about why area fifty one is in the news this fantastic today there are here are some things that are on the front page of our slash out of the loop. What's up with the face APP craze? What's up with Canal Eliana? I don't even that is what's up with people talking about Scarlett Johansson being a tree what is going on with Justin Trudeau Evergreen question what's going on with the Hawaiian protests like I don't know what any these things are and I can't wait to learn they'll be in the loop and they'll be in the loop. It's it's a fun resource. I mean these ones feel like a little bit <hes> meany but often their news things where something we'll be circulating in the news and maybe you don't know what it's about I find myself in this position. Shen literally all the time despite the journalist <hes> and it's just like a nice crowd sourced place where you can find Alomar Invo and do people opine in this forum and things get weird and political and sadistic okay so it's not just like here's a link that will help inform you. I I wouldn't take it's like weird and sadistic. I think it's weird in the way that read it is weird in the sense that people get really invested in their answers and someone will spend seemingly hours crafting the perfect baked cohesive replied to your question and that is weird but beautiful <hes> that was at least my experience with the fifty one stuff Mike. What's Your Recommendation This Week O. K.? My recommendation is as a net flicks series. <hes> does a half hour comedy series and Netflix original. <hes> it is a Japanese television show live action show it is called Cantero the sweet tooth salaryman <hes> <hes> this is a surreal comedy about a guy who is addicted to sweets traditional Japanese suites so he is a computer programmer and he's in an office all day and he just can't handle it because he can't have sweets so he changes changes his job to be a salesman who goes from store to store because that enables him to walk the streets of Tokyo and visit all of the best traditional sweet shops in Tokyo so he goes to real places and I don't know if there's like some sort of marketing tie in with the places that are feature on the show because to real restaurants and the actor sits in the chair and orders a sweet and as he orders the traditional sweet he gives you like over voice over internal monologue monologue all of the historical and like cultural significance of the thing he's about to eat. This is like the first fifteen minutes of the show and then like last seven minutes of the show is him eating the sweet and when he eats it he goes into like fantasy world it sort of a combination of like a really strong psychedelic trip and a prolonged orgasm because he like moans and his eyes roll back in his head and he starts gasping and then you go into his head and he's like in a world where there is like Mo Chee and cherries and syrup flying around and he's interacting with him. There's one where he eats like a melon shaved ice and then he gets married married to a woman with a melon head in this park. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing anyway really really great for late night. Viewing <hes> Cantero the sweet tooth Salaryman Mike. I need to ask you a question in house. Gender you on your watching this. I'm exactly no comments. Don't it's a fantastic show. You've got to see it's also just like even even if you can't stomach like twenty three minutes Nisa subtitled guy in a suit like talking about his the history of like some crazy dish you've never heard of just going youtube and watch the clips because the clips are like all of his weird trips. It's just amazing. It's so well done. It's really funny. It's based on a Manga also oh which I'm told his leg very popular in Japan so yes. It's it's really fun. Sounds really trippy the fact that it's well done telling me on this. It's like it's well produced deeply weird. Yes is deals that so we have to watch that just to see how closely your description matches the actual footage all right. I'm I would like to know how fair on that I would like all of our listeners to do out of into yeah. We don't know if you're watching it dawned or not might make a difference. What is your recommendation? My recommendation is a book that I read over vacation called my year of rest and relaxation Tessa Mush rush get much. I hope I did not just butcher her last name. I apologize if I did R._l.. You may have recommended this before on the podcast. Is that possible I did. I read the take right around the time of CIS. I needed something and relaxing during that theory trying time and I read it in one sitting yes I read it probably interior three days and thank you for the recommendation because I now have read it and also recommend it and when you hear a book you you hear about book titled My Year of Rest and relaxation you think is going to be something very different from what it ultimately is just as a refresher and he's you weren't listening to the podcast back when Arielle recommended it. It is a book <hes> fiction book about a young woman just recently he graduated from Columbia. She's working in gallery. She is <hes> she's in her early. Twenty s living in New York City and she is incredibly depressed and she's <hes> likely depressed from some trauma that she has gone through Inter family life but also just feeling this general sense of worthlessness in futility what's the point of everything so she decides to check out of the world <hes> by basically finding shrink that will just take out her prescription pad at you you know the smallest trigger and write her series of pharmaceutical prescriptions for her to <hes> dull her senses and just check out and sheet. That's what she does. She's determined to basically do nothing and sleep for a year and her apartment. <hes> in this plan gets more for more aggressive as time goes on she's very little interaction with the outside world with the exception of one friend and <hes> really shitty boyfriend if you'd even call him a boyfriend he's kind of less than that and for awhile when she's she's like managing to hold down a job and she's interacting with coworkers for a while but that doesn't ask for very long and the thing is that it sounds like maybe I'm probably just doing. I'm oversimplifying it but I think it speaks a lot to first of all these sentiments of feeling overwhelmed and wanting to check out in in like maybe indulging that fantasy a little bit of doing it but it's actually very deeply dark novel. It's also set in the days before nine eleven so I think that we have entered this serfaty right now. In some in some of our media where enough time has passed between <hes> September eleventh two thousand one and now we're starting to have this new kind of <hes> look at what the days before nine eleven. We're actually like you know. The consumer Internet obviously existed but like we weren't as immersed in it. We weren't as immersing social media applications are human human interactions were like fundamentally different so much actually Durham economy was different obviously but there's like so much that it was different in our modern society <hes> and and like this is an interesting glimpse at that and it all sorts of culminates nine eleven and it's it's sad actually but it's a it's very good book and I highly recommend it. She's she's a just like very good writer convert minimum not doing it justice and like she's very good <hes> she is. I think she's a rising star really quite good a ton of subtexts in that book too yeah. I think it's going to be on all of the best books of the year list or did it come out last year. <hes> it I and was it on all of the best okay. Have you been like resting and relaxing for a year I've been sleeping leaning back right my a year of rest and relaxation by Tessa Mosh vague yes. That's my recommendation excellent. Thanks everybody for listening to this week. Show <hes> we will be back next week with more news and if you enjoy this episode or even if you have have any other feedback other than pure joy <hes> Lisa Review wherever you review podcast with the debt beyond Google's platform or apples platform please we would love to hear what you think of what we do. <hes> you can find this all on the brand new twitter DOT COM Lauren. Where can people find you? I'm at Lauren good with an e and our L.. I am at part Esoteric and I am at snack fight and you can talk to all of us at Gadget lab. Which is the handle that we all uses our primary handle because we love hearing from us? Please tweet at us and thank you very much <music> <music>.

twitter Arielle facebook Jack Dorsey Elon Musk instagram writer Japan musk Adam Rogers Yulon reporter California Academy of Sciences Elon Musk Technology Darpa Donald Trump michael glory
Scorpion Vs Mouse: A Mind-Blowing Desert Showdown

Short Wave

13:38 min | 1 year ago

Scorpion Vs Mouse: A Mind-Blowing Desert Showdown

"Hey everybody matty Safai here. This week has somehow already been a very twenty twenty week. Knock great out there. So, today we're bringing you one of the silliest episodes of shortwave. We've ever made from back in March I promise. It'll bring you some genuine science joy which we can all use right now. We're back with a new episode on. Wednesday. And if you haven't already remember to subscribe to or follow shortwave wherever you get your podcast. Okay. Let's have fun. You're listening to shortwave. From NPR. About you but watching prestige nature documentaries is my idea. Of A wild Friday night. The scorching sun means many desert animals only come out at night, and there's a new one on net flicks narrated by the amazing Samarra Wiley called night on earth where a little desert mouse a tiny grasshopper mouse comes face to face with a Scorpion might want to steer clear this is in the Sonoran desert well, the is in like western New Mexico and sort of extends down into Sonora Mexico that's Lauren Esposito on the curator of Iraq at the California Academy of Sciences, Scorpions, Aka arachnids team score, Van, all the way. Yeah. You see where this is going. Hey, Lauren how's it going? Oh, I'm so excited. That's Ashley Grow I'm an assistant professor in the Biology Department at the University of Oklahoma Ashley Studies the grasshopper. Mouse, which is I, believe this is the scientific term. adorable. There's for like they look like Mickey Mouse and he's big ears and he's big is these long whiskers and as look really innocent and cute we absolutely had to get Ashley and Lauren Together. So we could learn everything about what happens next many animals tried to avoid venomous scorpions. Everybody's gotta eat. But not this little river. In a flash, the mouse attacks the Scorpion. He's a Scorpion heating specialist completely ignores like multiple stings to the face. His body can block the from even the most lethal scorpion toxins and rips the Scorpions tail off sting to saw. The Scorpions Scorpion dispatched and then howls into the sky he claims his territory. Tiny, scream. Yeah. It's pretty normal. Admit that. This episode, a mouse, versus Scorpion showdown that seriously will blow your mind. I'm mattis fire in the shortwave, the daily science podcast from NPR. Quick note here on the Mouse Scorpion throwdown in the Netflix show that Scorpion is called the giant Hairy Scorpion for the purposes of this scholarly discussion we've substituted the Arizona bark million also a scorpion this mouse likes to eat but way more intense venom and therefore cooler. All right Yo you ready to throw down. Yes ready. So as you both know, we don't WanNa make this feel to competitive. It's just a low key easygoing science space conversation about. Two mortal enemies. One corner from the dry and fearsome Sonoran desert Reagan at Ashley How much do these Nice way anywhere between twenty to fifty grams a about an ounce. The, grasshopper mouse. Other corner from a little dirt hole under Iraq down the. For Beer. So we're going to break down this fight between these two little babies and learn as much as we can about them in the next ten minutes. Sound good. Do it. All right. So Ashley this grasshopper mouse it's going out searching for Scorpions. Is this like its primary snack or what is it? What is going after out there? So in some areas that is primary snack. Yeah. grasshopper mice are distributed throughout short grass prairies and deserts in North America? So in some areas they'll eat. SPIDERS Scorpions lizards small birds they will eat other my birds they're. Smaller birds, birds was the one that. It's hard to imagine a a little mouse eating bird will they do actually if you like you can't house two males together the males are really aggressive so they will kill each other. Yeah, do. They. Do they eat the brain? No they did. SP's dump rain out they. Know that that's Brain, I understand that PODCASTING IS A. Medium, but I would strongly suggest our listeners at this point, pull up a picture of his spouse because. It's not. No it doesn't like. You think you see a picture of them and you're like Oh. This is really adorable mouths and then you learn the they kill each other and eat their brains out. Now there do not be fooled don't be. Okay. Okay. So learn when the battle starts, it's possible that the Scorpion is ready with like a particular kind of venom for this situation I didn't know that they had different types of venom. Yeah. Well. So actually one single individuals Scorpion can produce up to two hundred unique compounds in its cocktail of Venom and We have some preliminary evidence suggesting that they're able to express different parts of that cocktail. In different circumstances. So if they're trying to defend themselves, they might be using the more expensive peptides that caused pain or if they're trying to capture some pray, they might be using some of the the less metabolic costly things like salts, enzymes that is all they really need to break down a cricket. So cool. So you know Scorpions don't get enough credit out here they're making different types of venom. When you think about it, the Scorpions have really small and when they're trying to subdue their prey, they just need to paralyse it really quickly. So it can't get away. But when they're trying to defend themselves from their predators with they really want to do is deliver a stinging blow that stuns the Predator and gets them dropped so that they can escape and I think. What ashes referring to this idea this hypothesis that people have proposed called the venom conservation hypothesis, which is basically says like if your if your body to produce things and those things cost you energy to produce you WANNA use the least amount in any given circumstance. So you don't WanNa waste all your energy honestly say you know what I mean I'm trying to do too much. Walk that far to the gym. Okay so arguably one of the coolest parts of this is that the Scorpion gives the mouse the old like one two with a tail like sting sting the right term Lauren yesterday. All right. So just POPs him Bo-bo, with some staying vibes after that the mouse is like you're going to have to do better than that. Scorpion. So Ashley is going on. Well, the short answer is that the mouse has evolved resistance to the painful toxins that are in the venom, and so they can get stung multiple times in their face. But. The mice I they. They just groom a little bit like it is irritating. They're irritated by but then it's like the pain is just over and then they just go in, go back in for the attack and they. Look in their eyes. In Lauren just to be clear Arizona Barks Scorpions are not producing joke venom. Pretty potent, right? Yeah. So they can produce venom that could potentially kill like a small child. It's no joke I. Mean it's really serious venom and in some of their close relatives that live in northern Mexico those species are producing venom that could kill an adult like a human. Yeah. Yeah. We should say that it's not like it just is resistant or whatever to this potential Venom Ashley. It makes the mouse more powerful. Though it's crazy. So when the mice gets stung, their pain pathway or renew Ron's that make their pain pathway their modified to the proteins in the venom actually block those paint signals, they bond to those sensory neurons and they actually block the pain signals. Then they're actually less sensitive to other painful stimuli after they've been stung, it's like it's it's like the venom becomes an analgesic for them. It becomes a pain blocker is I mean Lauren? That's pretty cool. You gotTA give that up. I. Know I know you're. But it's pretty team Scorpion, but it's pretty cool. I can take something that's supposed to be like extremely painful and turn it into something that makes me not feel any pain anymore though it'd be pretty up. Okay so so Warren, you've described this to me as kind of like an evolutionary arms race between Scorpion Venom and the mouses ability to resist venom. Tell me about that. Well, what we think is that over time the Scorpions have to evolve stronger and stronger venom as a way to get around an escape. These really super vicious, terribly awful mice. And so what happens is over time the mouse gets stronger. The Scorpion gets stronger and increases for all of of Luminary history that these two have been in contact. It's just like a tail as old as time I think you know the really cool thing about this whole this whole arms race stories that it's because of the work that Ashley has been doing that we actually have direct evidence that they're currently engaged in this this. Arms race because she's found that different populations are are more or less resistance to the Scorpions that live with them are in different places. So this really because actually likes to experiment with mice and Scorpions that we. that. We know they're locked in this battle for life. We see you out here actually row. We see you out here. Okay. So maybe my favorite part and I know this isn't necessarily something you guys study is after the mouse kills and each this scorpion he throws his tiny little mouse head back points his nose at the dark desert sky and he claims his territory. I just love it. It's a very ferocious moment they in their in desert at night especially around dusk when they first started merging from their burrows. You can't see them. I mean, it's really hard to actually see out there but you can hear them they start howling calling to each other and it's sort of a hey I'm out here. This is my territory because they do they have large territories and they can't always see each other, but they can hear each other so. In this video, obviously the mouse is coming out on top but give me an idea of like is that most of the time the case or are the Scorpions mostly getting away? What's the situation? So in the real world, we think the Scorpions get away some of the time. Yeah, and Scorpions are amazing in that. They know when there's a Predator around they can sense it they. They feel vibrations on the surface of the desert. and. They've got these these slits in. Silla. On their feet which are visited like tiny little ears in their feet. They're like Viper Tori organs that pick up by regions, and so a lot of times they can orient themselves to the direction of an oncoming Predator prey that they just feel and they know like how basically how big it is because of how much vibration it's making in which direction it's approaching from, and so they're like Brady I can't these are such cool critters. That was that was great. You just said little ears on their feet. I had not thought about that way I was struggling like, what are those little I know? They're like because I know Y- the Scorpions when we're out collecting, they know that we're after them they're fast. It's it's. Hard To. Catch. Her they. Actually you should just be bringing me. Actually come to learn when she calls them at this. I do I just do a whistle. Scorpion. We got I gotTa take you me and hunting. Ashley Rowe and Lauren Esposito. By the way Ashley and other scientists are still trying to better understand painkilling abilities of the grasshopper mouse to help design better non addictive painkillers for humans. If you want to read about that or more on either of these amazing critters we've got you covered in the episode nets. This episode was produced by Brian, Bachmann edited by Viet Lay and fact checked by Emily von. Madison. And we're back tomorrow with more shortwave from NPR. With civil unrest, the pandemic and the economic crisis you want to know what's happening right when you wake up and that's why there is up I the news you need in about ten minutes from NPR news listen every day.

Scorpions Ashley Rowe Lauren NPR Lauren Esposito Iraq matty Safai Arizona New Mexico North America cricket Sonoran Samarra Wiley California Academy of Sciences Netflix Sonora Mexico University of Oklahoma Ashley assistant professor Van
#951: Snakebite

Planet Money

25:32 min | 1 year ago

#951: Snakebite

"Support for NPR. And the following message come from comcast through Internet essentials comcast has connected more than eight million people from low income households to high speed Internet most for the first time more at comcast corporation dot com slash Internet essentials this is planet many from NPR. Some medical problems get solved the traditional way. You know enormous pharmaceutical companies. He's or university labs that have huge budgets and run trials that sort of thing but some solutions to medical problems. Take a much stranger. Your path like they start with the tragic tale lead to an encounter with an eighties rock star and end up with an obsessed neuroscientist putting himself on the operating table to find a the treatment. You know that this is that second stranger kind of story. Did you mind just saying your name on Ams Dave Catania Dave Dave was there for the first part of this story the tragic tale. This was back in two thousand one and Dave was part of an expedition put together by the California Academy of Sciences. I was the one fish guy on the trip. Dave is an Iq theologist which is a fancy way of saying he is interested in looking for Cool Fish Specimens Simmons on this expedition in the jungles of Myanmar. What was your impression? As he started to walk in hot. There were leeches there which refund on the stand in one place long enough and you'd see them coming towards you. Dave remembers the Leeches. Because of course you'd remember. The leeches any remembers where the expedition stopped after that brutal first week of hiking we'd pitcher a little tents Jennifer mosquito protection and stuff in In School House actually and so we were kind of all kind thank crammed in there to pitch tents inside schoolhouse. Yeah it worked. So they're all set up. They're ready to start exploring. But this story is not about Dave. It is about the leader of this expedition. A guy named Joe Sliwinski. Joe Was a herpetologist snake guide and he'd been catching and handling snakes. Since he was a little kid. He loved snakes. He was already on his way to becoming one of the country's leading experts on snakes. Joe was also on this expedition. Fission to look for new species so after the tents were set up in the schoolhouse everybody went out looking for their own animals. Dave the fish guy of course. He put nets in the water to find exotic kinds of fish. Joe and his snake team. They went out pretty late. Looking for snakes specimens herpetologist will frequently go out at night and so the next next morning. It's the hardest time to process specimens and That was bags with some snakes. Joe Picked one of them up and said what's in here and and One of his field team said it's a Leica Don. I think there's a snake genus. Leica done yet get some protection in by pretending to be up poisonous snake in that. What's not and that's completely Joe Reaches into the bag and then pulled his hand handout really quickly and there was a ten inch long snake little one with just one Fang stuck in his finger and we couldn't even tell that anything it happened someone was wrong. The bag did in fact contain the venomous version of the sneak. A deadly crate snake. Joe started to feel a tingling in his hand and he knew wasn't very likely that the team could get them to a hospital in time so he got us all together and explained what was going to happen. Explained it very calmly actually which is really quite amazing because the the venom effects voluntary muscles so essentially it's kind of paralysis basically. And but you you lose the ability to breathe now remember. The team hiked into the jungle. There no vehicles they don't have satellite phone so the team sent a couple of runners off to the closest village. And and in the meantime Joe's description of what would happen to him starts to come true in his speech got slurred and gradually he couldn't really respond. And at that point. It's just we're just talking to him just to just to kind of keep. His mind diverted the team that had run off. Her help. Help was trying to get to a village that was about eight miles away. They were hoping there was a radio or a phone or something to call for help. Well we were hoping four airlift to get him out. I think once or even twice the chopper was coming but it was turned back by bad weather and during that time. Joe's heart stop and we actually did CPR for awhile and the doctor finally said he's gone and so we stopped at that point and when the chopper did arrive it was to evacuate the body. We did what we could with what we had available. was there no one who is going to bring an anti venom no you. It needs to be kept refrigerated. And it's not the sort of thing you can log into the field a There over a hundred thousand people die from snake bites every year and as with Joe Sliwinski. This usually happens in a remote place and often. The problem is keeping someone alive long enough to get help planet money. I'm Kenny Malone and I'm Amanda Iran Chick Chick Amanda you are our newest host here planet. Money you've spent a good chunk of your career covering science health right and that is why I am starting off with this story about snake bites. There haven't really been any innovations for treating snake bites since anti-venom or anti-venom which was developed over one hundred years ago there hasn't necessarily been a ton of market incentive to find better solutions. They're millions of snake bite. Victims were year but most are in poor rural areas of the places like Africa Asia. Latin America populations that Big Pharma has tended to overlook today on the show. We meet a man who goes to some pretty extreme extreme lengths to find a solution support for this podcast and the following message come from each raid. Investing your money. Denise shouldn't require moving mountains no matter how much or how little experience you have. Each raid makes investing simpler and for a limited time. Get One one hundred dollars when you open a new account with just five thousand dollars. It's all about helping your money work hard for you. For more information visit each ray dot com slash learn more each securities. LLC member SIPC Gretzky. Here I write the planet money newsletter. We'll keep you up to date with stories behind fed decisions the housing market and big scooter subscriber. NPR Dot Org Planet Money Newsletter. Just the right amount of economics WCHS set weekly ten years after the death of jobs. Lewinsky the snake guy on the California Academy of Sciences Expedition to Myanmar. The academy was once again organizing an expedition to a place with a lot of deadly snakes. This time the Philippines and they did not want a repeat of what happened to Joe so the academy calls up the local hospital and they ask you know. Do you have a doctor who can help us out. The hospital says yes we have got just just the guy. He's a scientist. He's an emergency room doctor. He's gone on expeditions before his name is Dr Matt Lewin and preparing for the very worst. I it's kind of his thing so often rehearse scenarios in my head before I go into the hospital for a shift mall play out in my head. What are the ten things things that can kill people quickly you could have a cardiovascular collapse? You could have a neurological emergency. You could be bleeding. You could be poisoned dehydrated. You could drop a lung. Doug could pop along pop along a thing. That's the thing. This gives my anxieties anxieties so matt had tweeted rattlesnake bites. It's before he'd also administered anti-venom and so naturally I was preparing for the expedition getting the medical kits ready and thinking. What would I do if I were in a situation in an somebody who was bitten and I didn't have anti-venom anti-venom is snake specific? Meaning if you're bitten by a King Cobra you need King Cobra anti-venom after seventy different venomous snakes in one place. I can't carry a refrigerator with seventy different. Anti venoms but matt wants to bring something in his medical kit so he packs this stuff called Neo stig mean which is sometimes used during surgery to reverse the effects of anesthesia. Kind of snaps you back. He figures there's if someone gets bitten. The Venom starts to paralyse them. That the stuff might buy them some time Matt goes on this trip to the Philippines and thankfully nothing bad happens on this expedition expedition. No Snake Bites but as scheduled matt needed to leave a couple days before a lot of the rest of the expedition he needed to go back to California and so he left his medical kit with one of the snake experts. I was leaving this kit with the drug with neo. Stig mean and explaining one of the herpetologist. How it might be used in a life threatening situation and here this needle in that needle and mixed this with that and the reception to my mini? Course Chris on if you get bitten this might work. Good luck was not all that comfortable. The guy's like really it's on me if somebody gets bitten by a snake I have to use a needle out in the middle of the jungle. I do not want that responsibility but matt doesn't see an option so you leaves the Kit with this reluctant researcher and then had the airport now a few hours later he is sitting on the plane heading back home. He somewhere over the Pacific and he's having one of those restless can't sleep on the plane moments when it hits them. What if you could just get rid of the needles and so the idea as I was falling asleep on the plane was like wow I wonder if you could just shoot this up up your nose usually if someone says to you let us shoot this up your nose? It is not a good plan. Yes bad advice advice but in this case it is a surprisingly recently practical idea no needles. It's not snake specific. Doesn't need to be refrigerated. Yes if you're bitten by a snake you still have to get to a hospital. You're going to I need the anti-venom but the likelihood that you'll make it. There is much higher once Matt got back to his home in the bay area. This idea was all he could think about the nasal spray for snake bites on his way to work. He's thinking nasal spray for snake bites on his way home from work nasal spray for snake bites. He is obsessed but having an idea idea for treatment and bringing a treatment to the market are two totally different things. Like how would he get a patent. How would he find people to invest in it? Do you just go to a bank. Matt had no idea we worrying about those things at the time or was this is more looking back. I was worrying about it all the time. I would say for every hour spent the lab. I spent thirty hours worrying about how to get funded and executed and convince people. This might work this time back in two thousand and twelve snake snake bite wasn't considered a pressing global health problem. The World Health Organization didn't even recognize it as a priority which means that there was less of a reason for the big foundations to tackle the global snake bite problem and there is also not a lot of market incentive to come up with new treatments for Snake Bites. The victims are often in poor countries with underfunded healthcare system. So when someone like Matt Lewin has a solution. Where does he turn to find funding? He needed some kind of bizarre miracle that he'd never even thought of to make that happen now at this point in time Matt's personal life has gone a little off the rails. He's not really leaving the house. He goes to work but he doesn't want to be there so one day his friend calls him up and his friends like Matt. All you're doing being is moping around the house thinking about nasal spray for snake bites. He's like come with me to this party. Try to get out of the House that he's going to this party at his friend's house it's at a house owned by some guy named Jerry Harrison. Matt's like fine. I'll go. He gets to the Party and they're like maybe fifty people milling around drinking spritzers spritzers. There's music playing. It is a beautiful house with a stunning view of the bay area and Matt he goes and hides somewhere else and I was being a little bit antisocial. We'll hang out in the kitchen. And there was a little snippet of paper on the side of the refrigerator. And it said Jerry Harrison makes other people's visions happen That is intriguing. Some minutes later half hour later Jerry says. Does anybody have any crazy. Ideas is that are laying lying his grammars perfects he other said laying fallow or lying fallow so what a quote him correctly he just waltz into the kitchen. No no he was he was it was in the room adjacent to where this little snippet of newspaper wasn't I heard him say any crazy ideas lying fallow and I figured well at at this point. Nothing's ever GonNa Happen. So I just blurted out nasal spray for snake bite at that point then Matt started explaining how how enormous the problem of state by is Jerry Harrison at at this moment. Can you introduce yourself against Yes I'm Jerry Harrison and what's your What what do you do for work although I do less of it? I'm a musician music producer. I was in the ban. The modern lovers in the talking at. Oh you know. He was just in the modern lovers and the talking heads heads just like two bands that defined rock in the nineteen seventies and eighties. Whatever no big deal burning down the house psycho killer say yeah? That's him Jerry Harrison playing rhythm guitar. But Jerry I gotta say none of these things seem to have anything to do with snakes. That's true. No but what they did do. Is that when Matt told me this. The first thing I said is I'm GonNa get you an IP lawyer not so punk rock the IP lawyer but since the talking heads stop putting out albums Jerry Harrison Sinn got involved in tech startups. He launched a venture capital fund. He supports sustainable. Agriculture and solar technologies. Which explains why at this party? He we ask. Does anybody have any crazy ideas lying fallow. I mean it was very lighthearted it was not it was not an wasn't like we're having a symposium to say like everyone discuss you know all the ideas. Jay said it in a very casual banner but it was the only thing I heard so why not see what happens. Asia and is really like a really a chimerical not long after the party the two of them get in touch Jerry. Harrison sets met up with a pro bono. Ip lawyer and the business side of his idea takes off but the next challenge for Matt Is. How do you demonstrate that a nasal spray for snake bites would work? Are you just GonNa like carry around a bunch of venomous snakes. And then see what happens when they bite people. Are you gonNA carry around the antidote in weighed in the bushes hoping that someone gets bitten by a snake. That's not gonNA work. How would you ethically do a clinical trial in a place where every village has a different word for the snake? A couch. You get consent. Could you hurt more people than you would help by doing. Poorly designed clinical trial at this stage. What he really needs is to just try out the idea? See if it works but it was not clear to me how to take the next steps very very far outside my training as a neuroscientist and so I was talking with my old mentor. Dr Phillip Bixler. UCSF and we were driving to San Francisco and we were discussing the similarities between Cobra over Venom and Kerry Sharara is a poison that comes from plants in South America and it causes temporary paralysis. Drugs that are a lot like like your. Ira Get used in surgery all the time. And it makes the patient not move during these critical moments and Dr Phil Bicker knows all this because he administers these kinds ends of drugs all the time he's an anesthesiologist. who also happens to run? The Human Studies Laboratory. A place where students and doctors can test out all the latest in drugs that sedate and paralyze and so we were discussing this and fill said well we could paralyze you and then see if the nasal spray works. So what Dr Phil Bixler was proposing. Was He mad. Why don't you just drop by Human Studies Laboratory and will you know paralyze you like you've been bitten by a venomous snake? And then we'll spray your drug up your nose and see what happens. What do you think buddy I remember? Exactly what what segment of the Golden Gate Bridge. We were awed at the moment. He said this. Of course the thing you should do when your buddy says you. Why don't we paralyze you is to say say no? Thank you then laugh nervously and go and find new friends but this is Matt. He's been obsessing about this for years so instead Matt says this tell me more about this and it seemed like a very reasonable proof of concept experiment and so that was when this overwhelming drive arrive to test. This idea really kicked in Matt Leans into this overwhelming drive to paralyze himself and videotapes. It after the break the following message comes from our sponsor comcast about their Internet essentials program designed to help bridge the digital divide comcast senior executive vice president. The David Cohen is proud of the advances. Internet essentials has made since first launching twenty eleven eight years. We have been able to connect more than eight million million low income Americans to the Internet. And we've now opened up the program to all low income residents living within the comcast territory to learn more go go to comcast corporation dot com slash Internet essentials. This message comes from. NPR Sponsor Vanguard Vanguard was founded on a simple but radical idea idea that an investment company can succeed because it puts investors first vanguard is client owned you own their funds and the Fund's own vanguard which means vanguard it is built to ensure that your interests will be the priority together vanguards thirty million investors are changing the way the world invests visit vanguard dot com or talk to your financial advisor to learn more Matt and fill the anesthesiologist. Spend the next six months getting their big experiment ready. The hope is that when when paralyzed Matt just like he'd been bitten by a venomous snake. That they can then reverse the effects of that paralysis without a needle just by using nasal nasal spray and if that worked it would show that yes. There may be a portable easy way to help victims and buy them some time before they need to go the hospital it would save lives maybe thousands of lives but they really were not sure if this would work get all the approvals that they need from the university they due to run throughs and then finally it is the big day. Oh I got her very early in the morning with two of the anesthesiologists and we spent the entire morning setting everything up. Most of the setup is pretty standard stuff for surgery and for Dr Pickler. This is totally routine. The weird part of course is that Matt is going to be awake through this paralysis. How do I indicate that I'm in distress for me? It was both getting prepared to be the the model patient and also also to make sure that the experiment had the best chance of succeeding. Because once I was on the table that star the end of Mike Control of the situation the setup all these monitors and if Matt starts having trouble breathing the Stop the experiment and they decide that they're going to videotape. What happens and this is the real recording from that day so at first they start giving him the drug that will paralyze so the first thing I experienced was I couldn't see very well I couldn't make out even the big E on chart then the process starts to spread then the little bit uncomfortable to swallow? My voice is changing a little bit and then I can't lift my head off the bed. His arms and his legs go weak and then it started to become a little bit oppressive trying to breathe. He wants to tell them that he's had enough of the paralytic drug but he can't everybody around me seem very relaxed and doing their jobs and I wasn't feeling particularly relaxed Masters to get agitated but he can't tell them how he feels and then of course I started thinking. When are they going to give me the drug? I just. I really wanted drug now if I wanted to give the drug. Give it to me cake. If the drug this is what it feels like start to suffocate. Finally this is the moment someone one reaches for the nasal spray. They put it up to his nose and spray. The effect of the drug was virtually. Immediate could feel the muscles coming back to life and then my vision came back really fast getting punched in the face and actually in a good way because I could really feel the muscles tightening up in my face. His whole body just snaps back within thirty seconds. He's kind of laughing and crying at the same time and that it works overwhelming. It's been a few years since Matt subjected himself off to this paralysis experiment. The drug that they used wasn't all that safe it would have only worked with a few kinds of snakes. It was the wrong drug and but the right idea since then he has found a drug. That seems much more promising. You don't have to spray up your nose. It can be taken as a pill with the glass of water water and he is starting clinical trials for it next year. I feel a lot of relief and now I feel as if this is one of the most incredible and enjoyable adventures. I could have ever imagined. It's really what envision doing when I went into become a physician and scientist that could not imagine a better adventure the drug biter might not work only a human clinical trial. Who will tell the to have the opportunity to get to try something like this? That might make a big difference is probably one in ten thousand lifetimes. When Matt started out he was just a doctor with an interesting solution to a problem but because his solution was not an obvious obvious moneymaker he took this very strange path a path? It feels more like a Rube Goldberg Machine. Really that could fall apart at any moment but instead improbably it has now become an actual business a couple of years ago Matt and Jerry Harrison. The guy from talking heads started a company together. It's is called off wrecks which roughly translates to king snake. If this drug works well in clinical trials their plan is to make a low cost version for the countries that need it and then also to package it to make a profit. They now have four full time employees and they got an investment from this unlikely partner the Department of Defence Fence a few months ago the World Health Organization laid out a plan to take snake bites much more seriously. The goal is by the year. Twenty thirty the number of people killed by snake bites. We'll be cut in half. Do you know stories of self experimentation to solve failures of the market. Let us know we are planning money at NPR DOT Org. We're also on facebook twitter. Her and Instagram at planet money special thanks to Elaine Chen Julia Longoria Casey Means Jillian Weinberger Twenty Phillips and WNYC. This this show was produced by Darren Woods. Alex Mark is our supervising producer and Bryant. First at at it's the show. I'm Kenny Malone and I'm Amanda Renchik this is NPR. Dr Thanks for listening. Oh can I add one more thing Amanda and I while reporting this story went to the Staten Island Zoo and we met with a very nice snake expert. Who took it over to the cage of a very dangerous Cobra opened it up and then with like a robot arm he held my recorder and put it inside the cage where the Cobra attack my recorder? Oughta it was her well.

Dr Matt Lewin Joe Sliwinski NPR Jerry Harrison comcast Dave Catania Dave Dave Myanmar Kenny Malone World Health Organization Jerry scientist California Academy of Sciences In School House Pacific Africa Jerry Harrison Sinn facebook California
067: Youth v. Climate Part 2 with Dr. Sylvia Earle

The Show About Science

14:19 min | 2 years ago

067: Youth v. Climate Part 2 with Dr. Sylvia Earle

"Welcome. Everybody was back at closing day since Sapard Cisco for part two of this live recording of the show bat side, my guest today is brewery by all just Eddo should Nago for Dr Sylvia Earle. She is just about to join me out, the call it. I sage let's get this interview started. Welcome to the show Sobia. Thank you. Great to be on board. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? In them with the ocean. When I was about three years old. I got knocked over by a wave on a New Jersey shore. But what is held my attention ever? Since is the fact that the ocean is alive. It's not just rocks and water, it's filled with critters. As we now heard from the surface to the greatest depths of the ocean. So when we think about the see again, it's not just all that beautiful blue water, which is critical to our existence, but it's all life requires the ocean. So I began exploring the ocean at a very early age, and I'm still doing it. So like, what have you seen in your lifetime would sa- change that you have seen and the power that would have that we can just that we can change the world in a generation? When I was eight years old. There's so much that we normally did not know, but we could not know that the eight year olds of today, including you have access to this amazing wealth of discoveries no-one. Had been to the bottom of the ocean. No one had been to the top of Mount Everest no-one had been to the moon. We had not sent instruments beyond our solar system. We could not imagine that polar ice could shrink. We did not have evidence that it could where we did have evidence that are you say juice of come ice ages of gone, but it just seemed like something so far away. So such a slow process nothing that we would have to worry about. But at the same time. That since huggers little girl to the present time. We've learned more about the nature of nature about who we are as humans, and we're we've come from where we might be going. But at the same time, there's been more change we've become so powerful technologically that we can send instruments for into space send our selves into space. Look back on ourselves that image of earth from the moon that astronaut William Anders took that photograph called earth rice is so famous that image. Here's the sloop of the moon, and then earth is appearing just like a blue miracle, which it is say life is earth is a miracle. And during this very short period of time. What humans have put into the atmosphere. We've put into the ocean. What we've taken out of the ocean the fire the forest taken out of the ocean. I mean. Bluewater plenty of fish, what happily taken out of it. But ninety percent of the sharks are gone about half. The coral reefs are going. We have seen the change as. Kept them Walsh pointed out with changing the chemistry of the ocean from the carbon dioxide that is being not just into the atmosphere. But it goes into the sea Uchida's absorbed a lot of that. But there's a point beyond which they just can't absorb more, and it becomes carbonic acid and slowly. Now, rather quickly is becoming more acidic change the chemistry of the ocean. You change everything. So how quickly? Has the ocean changed how much have we taken out of it per year? Route new. The official figures are close to ninety million tons of wildlife taken from the sea. That's Tunas, shrimp, and crab and squid wasters clams and things, but the numbers actually larger than that. Because of what is known as he legal, and unregulated and unreported extraction of wildlife from the sea. So we've seen an actual collapse of. Life in the ocean in my lifetime, and now into yours and the trend is not look very promising. If we keep doing what we're doing. And those of you who eat ocean wildlife, think cod think tuna think whatever it is wild creatures from the sea or even cultivated fish that are fed wild fish, this many wild fish to make this many cultivated fish, you know, we just have to rethink. The nature of life in the sea. We tend to think of fishes as modern something to eat. But there are a lot more important for other reasons as well like wills we used to take a lot of wills to make products to stop doing that for the most part. Other values so one way or another if we stop using oil today, I'm we go back to Wales they'll go extinct, and then there'll be a grill, boom. And then we'll bump still haven't taken care of our problems with oil and ocean acidification so all of them would die, and then they rob which uses up oxygen, and then all the fish dying. It's. The hat. What other options? Do we have? Will good questions? We know have seven billion people. Plus when I arrived when captain Walsh arrived on earth. The number was closer to two billion people. So we've witnessed a tripling plus of population lots of people and every one of us like every other creature on earth. We use the natural world. We have chairs the suit on where did this material come from? We took it from nature water where did it come from came from the ocean, basically is rain and then into the ground, and we took it out of the ground serum. He's nice glass containers. The clothes we wear the houses, we live in our transportation, everything there's a cost to our prosperity. It's chew with earthworms. It's true with eagles. It's true. With als. It's true of all life. We use the natural world. But no creature has taken more than humans and the pace is picking up because there are more and more of us. But we're the only ones who've seen earth from space the only ones who can measure the change in ice in poor areas. We're the only ones who can communicate our discoveries as we now can as you now can people all over the world. So armed with knowledge. We can make a plan. Very well might be the only ones that can fix this problem. You got that? Right. Fair that the past generations have what the future generations to fix this problem. I mean, it's like you're just giving us a Bessie room that we've got your giving us a messy room and saying we have to clean it up. I don't wanna clean that room up. Do it yourself. Here's the thing. We are all in this together. We are we need you. But you need us to shape up and take the Malwa JR. That did not exist. When I was eight years old. Yeah. And and realize that this little blue spec in the universe. That's all there is and the ocean governance climate, and it's not just the water. It's life in the ocean that shapes the character of the ocean generates oxygen takes up carbon dioxide, you know, we think about forests and how important they are for capturing carbon. And at the conferences taking place here in San Francisco Harrison, Ford said, you got to remember nature nature has shaped this planet the trees and the pastures of flight, oh plankton in the ocean or capturing the carbon naturally, and if we destroy the forests if we destroy those ocean, first pastures of plankton, and seagrass meadows, and the mangroves that capture the carbon that's part of the problem, we need to hold those systems steady and not let them change. We need you to say. So I think people listen to kids way, they might not listen to somebody such as I although I keep trying to get people to understand that. We've got the best chance that will ever have. I think the kids today, you're the luckiest kids ever to come on the planet because you're armed with knowledge. We all need each other to stay together and work as one to come together and use a different source of energy. So go out there spread the word and help others and together we can solve this problem here. Can you imagine having a chance to interview Galileo is a really smart man or Einstein? He was a really smart guy too. But he could not neither one of them could no. What is now? Available for you to know, neither one of them got to see earth from space and both of them gave humankind agreed deal. And then he other really smart people in our past. And we're the beneficiaries of that knowledge, and you and the other kids who are coming along have that benefit of knowing what I could not know, and you are so powerful at motivating the grownups to get with it and use the power. Everybody has power use that power to do what you're suggesting we have to do. How the ocean and help the creatures that can't help themselves. Merchandise that the ocean is filled with wild life like birds like the creatures on the land that we've come to look at with new respect for values that transcend just taking their skins or just using them. As a source of sustenance. We all have the power to make some change in this world. So use it for the better here here. I like to thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me here and for using your superpowers as a communicator. Still back. Scientists. Dad, you can shut the recording. Wraps up. Today's lives up aside from Colin ice in San Francisco. A big thanks to everyone who came out to see the show, especially Alexander here. It's should to be ado, really dedicated fan from the California academy of sciences, thanks for listening. I know you're going to do great things. And finally a very special. Thank you to Dr Sylvia. Earle Tom, Corwin Marley shirts. And everyone else that cola nights music was composed by Jeff dad Theresa Brooks. Okay. Dad, you could shut the recording off.

San Francisco captain Walsh New Jersey Dr Sylvia Earle Cisco Mount Everest California academy of sciences William Anders sea Uchida Eddo Colin ice Dr Sylvia official Wales Alexander Earle Tom Jeff
Volitional Psychology (PROCRASTINATION) with Dr. Joseph R. Ferrari

Ologies

1:09:59 hr | 1 year ago

Volitional Psychology (PROCRASTINATION) with Dr. Joseph R. Ferrari

"I'll hey it's your neighbor's cat. Who Hangs out by the mailboxes? And who should definitely be inside but is also very convincing when she asked for Billy rubs alley ward back with the most exciting episode allergies. Made if you ask my subconscious brain and my thirsty heart which you didn't and I don't care but this episode is about procrastination it's not. It's not possible for me to be more ready for it but before we dive in. I'm GonNa take a minute to let you know they're live. Things happening soon. Thursday march fifth albeit the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco. I'll be leading their women in science panel and then the next night March six. I'll be back in. La for the natural history museums. First Friday series. I'LL BE LEADING TO CHATS. Called Secrets from the vaults and then ob at South by Southwest Edu in Austin giving a talk on March eleventh. So you want tickets for those links are in the show notes come say hi also thank you to everyone on Patriot. Fan who supports the show and send their questions. Thanks to everyone. Wearing gear from allergies merged dot com their t shirts and sweat shirts and hats and socks. And thank you to everyone. Who's ever hit the five stars in Itunes or subscribed on all the platforms? And of course. Who Leaves Reviews for me? Just cradle in my palms like baby bird and each week. I read you a newly hatched one such as Casey mullins thirteen says absolutely love it. The journalists to me loves the Lilith is were you explain slash fact check something and everything else in me loves everything else. Just lovely while. I think you're lovely Casey Monceau deal with that okay. Progress analogy or get into okay. Progress -nology not a real word in the academic sense bummer. But procrastination has such a beautiful backstory. So pro means forward and crassness means till next day so to procrastinate in Latin means to forward things until tomorrow. It's like doing a chef's kiss while you're getting punched gorgeous so volition. Psychology comes from volition which means the intentional behavior and that comes from the Latin meaning to wish so. This was a topic. I could not explore soon enough as a people pleasing human with a brain full of bees. I have the dirty secret of being a chronic procrastinator. The higher the stakes on something the more terrified I am of starting it if there are official government forms. I can't even look at him. I can't look at them until the day. They're like big writing projects. I would rather clean a litterbox belonging to an elderly tiger. Once well procrastinating. I googled procrastination and then I found out about a conference in Chicago. Run by the topics most prominent research psychologist and professor of general and Community Psychology at Chicago's Depaul University. This all just got his bachelor's in psychology to masters in experimental and General Psychology a PhD in psychology. His list of published papers on the topic of procrastination is exhaustive. It is exhausting to fathom. This is the dude when it comes to the science of procrastination so I reached out. He said yes he would be interviewed. But but if I made light of the suffering felt by chronic procrastinators he would pull an atom driver on fresh air and he would walk right in a studio and I assured him I had the utmost compassion and also the alterior motive of wanting to fix my own life and he said okay great and so we met up in a community radio station in a Chicago suburb. Shout out to a lease of ice cream media in lisle. He was neatly dressed in a cashmere sweater and has a distinguished mustache. Kind of like you would expect to find on a fire chief. Now time was ticking. We spoke as fast as we could an answer as many questions as we could possibly fit into this window. I had bought his book so procrastinating. The no regrets guide to getting it done. Which explains that. Everyone procrastinates but everyone is a procrastinator. So who does what and I prepared a list of questions that was mostly just an airplane. Napkin scrawled with the words. Why and how stop so? We address both so. Let's get this episode in your brains because no matter what your relationship to procrastination this episode will change the way you look at yourself and your to do list. So without further ado absorb the wit and the wisdom of author scientist psychologist and procrastination research. Legend foolish psychologist. The doctor Joseph are Ferrari. Ferrari is F. R. R. I like the car at you. Must you must have said that so many times maybe times when you know it means. Smith doesn't really mean to blacksmith really in maker Feroz. His Latin follow there. You Go Ferrari Ferraro. Ferraro mean. Smith is like Smith's might have exotic. Okay so you know. Ferraris rearing horse logo. I always thought that meant look how fast our cars go really fast horse. But then I was like. Oh maybe it's like. A farrier like a blacksmith that does horseshoes and I just looked up and Enzo Ferrari just borrowed the image of the prancing horse from World War. Two fighter pilots plane for Good Luck. Oh my God. Let's get back to grass nation. I am sorry so who procrastinates. What's the deal? So they will not listen to anything that I say to treat it. Yes 'cause there's a reason. These are stupid people diverse smart so dr moves away already the starter you started already recording doctors furry yes. You're a psychologist I am. Is there a particular field of psychology deals with procrastination trained as a social personality psychologist? That means a research psychologist. They're also clinical psychology and counseling psychologists that have dealt with this topic of procrastination. But we're getting a little ahead if I may okay because everybody procrastinates Banat everyone's a procrastinator. I was GonNa ask if you have that tattooed anywhere on your body. That's my quote. Stolen isn't right. What does that mean? How can you be because what the data shows is that twenty percent of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators? Does that mean they do it at home? They do it. Schools would work relationships. You know the going to show a blade for events they're not gonNA RSVP on time they're never going to get that concer ticket Because they never sporting ticket because they never went around. Get the T- The the purchase tickets. They Miss Doctors Appointments. Wait TILL THE GAUGE GOES ON E. Before they get more guests they wait for the third bill twenty percent. Now you might say that's all I know people that are higher but that's hired in depression. Higher Than Phobia hired an alcoholism higher than than panic attacks higher than substance abuse and yet. This is considered a funny topic at this is considered procrastinations considered a non serious disorder. I have had people get angry at me when they say. Oh you know. I think may is mental health month. Then I say yes and make sure with procrastination. Oh you're trivializing our other illnesses. No this is more common than many of those other issues and yet people consider this a frivolous topic twenty percent of adult. Okay now. We're getting right into it. So Dr Ferrari says according to his studies and there are many that figure tracks across all genders and nations twenty percent of folks are chronic procrastinators. And if you're listening to this you either are one you know one. Maybe someone sent you a link this episode because working at the last minute is in cute anymore. Now college students. Seventy to seventy five percent of you procrastinate on assignments but you do it less as you get older. Which brings us back to Dr Ferraris motto. Everybody Procrastinates Mutt. Not everyone's a procrastinator. So everybody might put off task. The college student might delay reading studying raising for class seeing the mentor. But if is owes izo okay Liz. Okay is a free concert to the first fifty people that there is a keg of beer for free in the dorm that there then then at procrastinators they procrastinate but then procrastinators so it's very important to listeners to people to do the research that know that. There's a different train academic procrastination and global every day. Procrastination or call chronic procrastination. They are two different animals. Every two years as an international meeting on the Study of procrastination you it was just held this past summer in Sheffield England in twenty twenty seventeen. I hosted it here in Chicago. That was the tenth biennial so for twenty years over. Twenty years scholars have been getting together. What's interesting is that I'm pretty much the only. Us person who a lot in Canada a lot in Europe now it's growing in Asia and other areas but in the US. This topic not considered a serious scientific topic rang. Why I don't know and every time we do these meetings we go back. Because there's always new people coming to you need to the notion of was the difference between pondering and waiting and delay dwelling and postponed procrastination. Pausing waiting doll Dr being drawn to. I can't say darling darling necessarily pausing waiting which would cut that up. He was kidding. I'm not do dirty like that anyway. Causing waiting are all forms of delaying. But they're not the same. As progressing the continuum goes worse. The question is what's the tipping point we don't but we should not consider delaying itself as the same. It's not that these people are lazy. Chronic procrastinators are very hard working at something else. That's something they shouldn't be doing all right. They're postponing what they're supposed to do for something else and they've got good reasons they'll tell you. This was very smart to keep coming up a plausible believable reasons. So you listen to them and you go. Oh okay. That's why you can't do it now and the next time. Oh that's what. Oh Oh that's that's never taking ownership and as someone who struggles with this. I can say each of these excuses fuels very real to the procrastinator. So it's not that we're lying to you. It's just that we're lying to ourselves. Perhaps and Dr Ferrari says that there's a tipping point between pondering and delaying in true chronic procrastination that tipping point. I find usually my face tipping into a keyboard at four. Am the night before something do pondering more cognitive variable or something about thinking and so- indecision being indecisive is what we call on the field decisional. Procrastination break them out. A sort of separate and again. There's a difference What do you do if you're a person is indecisive while first thing to do and I know you WanNa Talk About Treatment? Later is you. Don't take them a place to a place where they have. Lots of options nightmare. Yes out here. In the western suburbs of Chicago. There's a movie theater in Aurora. That has thirty one movie. You don't take the indecisive to thirty one movies. Why because you stand there and you say so. What do you want to see? What will they say? I don't know what do you want to say you know? What do you want to say? Whatever in you and you look at your watch it seven o'clock and they're all starting at seven fifteen. We really got to decide. What do you want to see? What do they say they they have you taken? They don't want so they make you choose C. And so it's never their fault. Am I going to no no no? I'm just making a recording this. Because it's my favorite episode ever. Okay yeah absolutely so if I never choose never my fault. You don't WanNa make a decision. That's okay your choice. You have that right but then as we say in New York shut up okay if you let me make the choice you gotta live with that C. So again going back to the movie metaphor so they see. The movie is the movie as good. We leave say that was great. That was wonderful. Let's suppose a dud a stinker a horrible movie. What did they say at the end? We'll be thuc you'll know how to treat it. You don't bring the indecisive a place where they have so many options can handle it all right and good and bad people. It's difficult absolutely. What have you do it wrong? Hardin so so life is look when God made us. She gave us she gave us needs to Ben. We're GONNA fall the question in life. Isn't all you going to fail? The question is when will you fail? You See. People don't WanNa fan. I can't make missing none zero. You will make mistakes. Life life is full of failure. The question is those knees. Get you down but those knees get you up. Hats the question. How do you get back up like the Phoenix? How do you rise out of the ashes of the failure? So you're going to family like yes. Life is fun of failure. The questions did you learn. Did you grow? Did you move on beyond the failure. And that's what people need to understand. Clinical psychologists say eighty percent is great. Not a hundred percent people. WanNa be perfect. And if I'm not perfect on garbage yet no your you know ones there and that means you're going to make mistakes all right so the clinician says if you can reach eighty percent of your goal eighty percent of out there. You're a success. No a recent study found actually supported this that happiness your most contingent most healthy with eighty five percent success and fifteen percent failure. Really yes hundred percent. We need failure in like nope but some failure makes us most adjusted. Don't let me say full you when it comes to being flawless. It's never going to happen. That's a good thing. Salvador Dali once famously said have no fear of perfection will never reach it so lowering. The expectations for yourself is just like undoing. The top button of your pants at Thanksgiving but for your soul it feels so good and probably no one will notice the difference. You're talking Emma chronic procrastinators which is enough about me. Let's talk a little bit about you. So now chronic progressive. No I know how. So how did you get into this field? What really gives Valentine's Day so I'll give you the public reason. Oh okay I know you. Everybody wants to preview Valentine's Day and my wife will be angry just understood. Exactly what the problem is. They didn't outer. Well sure. I'll give you the history okay. I think it's nineteen eighty seven eighty eight. I'm in my doctoral program at Adelphi University in Garden City Long Island because you go national so I made my doctoral program and I'm taking a class and this is the eighties before computers taking on self defeating behavior. The instructor was a social psychologist retooling to become a clinician so she was very interested in understanding Choosing to suffer people religious show that people will shot themselves. They think I deserve to be this. Masochism SAITO MASK. She was into all that stuff. And one of the topics was self handicapping. When will people sabotage their behavior? So we're in this class covering small seminar. I raise my hand and I say excuse me. This sounds like it could be procrastination. And she says well yeah. Sure I said okay I again I okay. Well what does the research show? She says. I don't know but I'm sure someone's done the study again. This is the eighties. So what do I do? I Open my notebook and write the word procrastination and after class. I go to the library because this is what people used to do. All right and I go look it up. Yeah and I find practically nothing on the topic of procrastination now. Nothing about two hundred conferences and papers but a lot of booze on writer's block Career indecision but from a social personality psychology. Point of view I try to understand. What are the causes? What are the consequences? Nothing so in graduate school. We heard a scratcher soon. You could either do research and this is good for your listen to hear particularly those who may be studying something. You could do something that everybody else does. Then you'll be a body of literature and you fall. Follow along the way you can go off into something that no one else has done. And then you carved the path and your name becomes synonymous now a little and here Dr Ferrari mouths award pub and I like that idea so in the beginning everything I published on I wrote. Procrastination was publishable so much. So that I remember one journal they came back and said we'll accepted but the you have to change The Introduction. Will you talk about litter? 'cause YOU JUST KEEP CITING. Ferrari for a pet because I'm the only person so yes. Dr Ferrari is one of the leading experts in this having been an author of the Seminal Nineteen Ninety Five Textbook Procrastination and Task Avoidance Theory Research and treatment and his less academic and more. Hey I'm screwing up my life with this one understanding pixelbook still procrastinating. The no regrets guide to get done now. The threateningly inquisitive still procrastinating. Came about because of the Horse Bucky. He often sees on the topic so the title is called still procrastinate because I got tired of so many people following the Time Management Myth. Yeah it was an in these techniques just warned science-based. Yeah so it really wasn't hard for me to write because they knew the literature you know some people say it takes a long time to right now. I thought they had a couple of months. I mean tweeted the and all that but the typing up was just know what to say and then I looked for interventions because I really am more interested in the causes and the consequences but everybody wants the cures fix me. You decided to write this book so I wrote this book in came out in twenty ten Because I got tired of all the other stuff that was out there. That really wasn't that based on the science based on what people were saying. He mentioned some well-worn advice about eating raw frogs. First thing in the morning and this is metaphorical. It's not a Silicon Valley biohacking. But I've had some luck with time blocking which is giving myself specific times to do certain tasks but Ferrari says these tactics don't always get to the heart of the problem list of things to do. Put them in order and you know I grew up. That's called prioritizing that procrastination clearly if I have a dozen things to do ten eleven twelve gotta wait what to do that all right so I'm working on that. But that's not progressing. The troop question has that list of twelve. And then maybe one maybe two then rewrites. The list makes a copy of the list things around my right. Oh no no. I'm just saying that. So structured or another person talks about active procrastination. Now listen to those words active. Procrastination how can I actively do something? You nursery is inertia. Dr Ferrari says he hates to see people. Taking advantage of the agony procrastinators feel and offering them non-effective or nonscientific solutions. I mean can you blame him? This man has spent his adult life. Hunkered over data sets doing serious science on the topic. There were a lot of people out there that are trying to cash in on a real problem seriously. A problem for people in their life. It's the worst problem in my life. And I am a super high achiever. Great Grades Super Perfectionist. Every always commence how hard I work in. It's this shameful secret that I that I take the most important things and I do them last because failing at them is devastated so fear of failure. It's clearly fear of success. You can cause people depressing because if I succeed what happens then it just more work on the lawyer who never finishes the brief on time so they don't get the the firm doesn't give me an additional stuff to do. I'm not finishing the reports that because skinny. What did he call them? And so I call them prox- short because again I'm from New York and he's gotTa be fast. Creston nation talks so complex. Prox- think the world is about themselves. I don't like it. I can't do it as I don't want to fail. I don't look good. World is not about me. Life is about we if. I don't do my task on time. Then you can't do your task on time which doesn't let the next person so life is not about me. Life is about we. We live in unity common unity community. And sometimes we're so afraid of letting the community down that we let the community down. Sorry I didn't mean to do it. What are the mechanisms underlying that and I know that this is a whole book's worth but if someone is listing protection okay would it be self esteem is? That's how I feel about myself. Yeah Brock's are very concerned about what other people think of them and social esteem. I want you to like me. I want to fail. I don't want to do poorly. I want you to really like me see but if I never finish you will then say I. Lack effort not lack ability. Yeah Wow that hurt. Lacking ability is much more stable. Much more doesn't matter how much effort is much more consistent lacking effort. Means maybe I could do it. I just didn't have enough time. This will be much better. If I had more time I could really show you. Then see not my fault. It's time got away from me. I know don't often times a constant which is why you can't manage time. You're going to go there. Yes I know that time. Management is is a myth and I have tried that so many times like what do you feel? How do you feel about the pomodoro method and the pomodoro method is the kitchen timer? Twenty five minutes on Fifty. Five minutes off you know and not the fruit to tweet. No Granite No. No it comes from a talion for pomodoro because the guy who invented it had a had a kitchen time with a little bit tomato. Y- You said an egg timer twenty twenty five minutes you work and then five minutes or bullet journaling with the eighty percent where it's time management problem. The the AH progressing these things will work. They talk about the five minute plan. That you break things down Yeah absolutely the five minute plan by the by I. Just look this up is where you take a dreaded task allude some assignment and you tell yourself you will do it for five minutes and you're out of there usually in five minutes relate. This isn't like hell on earth because we tend to anticipated task being so much worse than it actually is so no harm in China tactic. But if you're the twenty percent if you're listening to this and you say yes but for me okay. This is a entertaining however in my case this is nothing to work. You need cognitive behavior. Therapy Aka also known as CBT. Because we need to change the way you think and the way you act because again this this lack of I don't WanNa show a lack of ability because there were so concerned with that and yet life is full of failure. Life is full of. You're going to make mistakes and actually you're GONNA be healthier if you're GonNa make mistakes and happier. They'd rather have them look as lacking of effort now. There are three myths. Should I go there I yes? Oh debunking. Flimflam is one of my favorite segments. It's often miss debunks flimflam okay. I call them myths tomato one of the myths. That people say is technology makes it so much easier to progress with with my phone and everything else. I gotTa answer that with a story in two thousand and six a reporter from Connecticut phones and says Doctor. What do you think about the snooze button on alarm clocks? I don't never goes. Oh yeah that's the first technology for procrastination and it's fifty years old. It was first available in Nineteen fifty-six. Oh Wow yes. I didn't know that. Yeah so we've had a lot of time and he's right you gain nine minutes and you know there's nothing wrong with gaining is the problem. Is You keep pressing Yuki pressing? That's the problem so then I started thinking about that. Okay so the technology back in fifty six allowed us to do what about the telephone eighteen? Eighty five okay. There was a time you had to write your letter out. Make sure it got to the person. Give them five days. Give them now. I could wait three okay and you. Could you do this at the last minute? The automobile earlier than the phone. There was a time I had to get my horse and buggy together and feed it and get it all together now. I could just going in my car. There's always been technology. Don't give me this pooh-pooh that it's technology makes it easier. Myth Number Two myth number two is over Ferrari. You don't understand. Our lives are so much busier today. We have so much going on. I just can manageable. It's too much What an insult to our ancestors to get up to a former get up in the morning and make sure. The field was ploughed. Fixed the roof at the pump working. Can the goods feed the animal? Day didn't have a lot to do. There's a hundred and sixty eight hours a week. Twenty four times seven no more. No less. Don't tell me we're busier. Where different. Oh absolutely yes not the same. But it's not busier. Don't give me that excuse. Don't insult our ancestors. You cannot manage time. You only manage yourself. There is an expression. We cannot control the wind but we can adjust our sales. We can adjust how we deal with this and the Japanese say and if there's no wind row absolutely and then what about the three Okay and myth no no I love that? Okay so I tell you I can talk forever. Myth number three. Oh okay all right. Ferrari so technology Has has been there in time has always been the same but you know I just work. Best on the pressure got to wait until the last minute. Ferrari it gets me but when it gets the juice moving and they always seem to succeed we ask. Yeah you've read my journal okay. But what juices are those exactly. Well there's stress hormones and if you need them to get a job done. Congratulations you are arousal procrastinator. As opposed to the avoidance procrastinators. Who just feel like their success or failure at any given task is a huge indicator of their worth on the planet so Tasmanian Devil arousal versus an armadillo avoidance. If you will on a little bit of both and as you can imagine by putting those animals together it's not attractive so what happens to we get snow. So yes so. I brought them in the lab experiments with a lot of people. Think the research on procrastination that I and others do are just surveys. Absolutely not I've done a lot of experiments meaning you bring procrastinators in the lab and not procrastinators and you haven't task so in a series of tasks they made more errors at the last minute. They took longer but they thought they did better last minute. So this perception do better. And if you're talked procrastinators prox- they will tell you Ferrari. I remember the time when I waited and this thing happened and you go. I remember that that was like what eighteen years ago. You told. That was thirty one years ago and the Oh yeah yeah. What about all the failure? Since so they will harp on they were remember the times when it works because life is a very as we say in the trade a variable schedule of reinforcement. You don't always failure always succeed and so this is the time it's going to happen. Side note of variable schedule of reinforcement was not a term that rolled off my tongue so I had to look it up and it means you never know when something will pay off kind of like Lotto scratchers or playing slot machine or swiping right on someone who might not like you back. I Myself Not Vegas. Gambler. I get no thrills from feeding money into a video game owned by money pigs so to put that in perspective. Let's look at procrastination as gamble. So the notion that the high stakes danger of doing something last minute would lead to some jackpot of genius is of course foolish and Dr Ferrari says that your odds of doing a good job on something are way higher and more predictably so by just doing things earlier whether that's writing your book of short stories or buying plane tickets. So procrastination is a huge crapshoot. Shoot and remember. The House always wins. I read your book that people who procrastinate on in terms of personality psychology and I have opposite on that tend to have lower conscientiousness and higher neuroticism and they tend to worry about the fee from the system is not as much as people thought it clearly conscientiousness. Now what does it? What are we talking about here? People don't understand that Personality researchers have said that. There's really five we call them the big five personality variables that all comes down to five. And actually there's a six and I can talk about that in a minute but anyway there's the big and the easiest way to remember. Think of the word ocean and that will give you the an an acronym the openness to experience conscientiousness extroversion agreeable nece and neuroticism spell the word ocean right. And that's how I teach students remember. Okay so the big one. Interestingly enough there's very little research on conscientiousness but procrastination seems to be the strong opposite so again when I pushed back from colleagues as to. This is not a real topic. I say. Study the opposite of conscientiousness study procrastination. It's it's correlated negatively. I have not done that research. I'm not a big fiber. We call them calm and in fact. I like a newer model. The Heck Sokoto heads in the age. Now it'd be on humility and honesty. What these researchers have found is the five works. But you're missing something. People were honest and humility. I told him it's hard to be humble. When you're great you know it and so this is an well that also brings back social social esteem. That seems like progress. Nation is not a problem that you struggle with but you have people in your life that you're might be sure awesome. You sure I'll just say that in a general sense and not great dimmer with people though. This parish dedicated the book to someone very close not exactly no. That's the book. What Book Are we talking about? How we're talking about still procrastinated. The no regrets to getting it done of course which there will be shown okay now so when you're when you're studying this do your relationships with people close to you who struggle with percussive they inform your research. Yes they inform but remember the good exp- These procrastinators are good. Excuse maker right and so whenever they hear anything. I'm talking about or any podcast or any interview that will do on the phone that afterwards they get very annoyed and they say well. That's all the commercials that you have old research. You have only looking at one thing. Yeah so an excuse making but you don't understand in my situation Lebedeva do you believe? Do you have a a a cushy empathetic heart for me anxious. Struggles of the progressive. Don't take I'm being cold. Yes but I'm not going to let them get away with that because she doesn't help no enables them. I'm not going to enable them not about them about us right about all of us and that and all I be doing is to feel bad for them. Yes and sympathetic. Yes and I try to advise. I get calls all the time emails all the time. I've struggled all my life. What can I do and I I in pathetic I understand. I'm not a clinical psychologist however I give just a few tidbits and they go. Oh that's me. On the very much they can relate to it so I don't think I'm off the mark. No right on the money just went so painful and wonderful about it. So in one of Dr Ferraris approximately one billion studies. He looked at different types of artists to see if procrastination is actually an important part of their process. Is it the secret sauce on their Chicken Burger? So I wondered all these creative procrastinators savoring trying or they ruminating about failure. What do you think ruminating about? What about perfectionists perfectionism is also related nation? But it's a separate concept to overlap. There's different there's a body of literature on perfectionism. But there is a crossover would procrastination. Non procrastinators are perfectionist and so our procrastinators perfecting his. But what's the difference between them? A long story short the procrastinator is perfectionist it for a motive desire to get along The non procrastinator perfectionist to get ahead. Oh Wow you understand the difference one is I want to do the best job to get ahead the other was I want you to like me? You see don't you see I work? Hard number isn't a good. I really worked hard enough. Yes that was Dr Ferrari mimicking desperate puppy. In case you're feeling scathingly understood right now. As Am I come from? Does that come from? Aw where's the origin of you? Read some of stuff okay. That's a great question. Okay first of all. There's no gene for progressing. There's no genetic gene. Every two years is an international meeting on the study of procrastination. Didn't say that I did when I did it. In two thousand seventeen there were researchers from Denver area who came in and followed up earliest study of mine on genetics and they found with identical twins. They found procrastination was less than fifty percent explained by genes. So it's not genetic I had shown earlier in the nineties when I was pumping this stuff out That it was per parenting style. It's a learn to learn to become a procrastinator. Okay and that means you can earn it. Yes you can teach old dogs new tricks. I tell people use a different bone and you take longer. Okay all right but can you teach absolutely is just going to be harder. So what I found was a certain parenting style. That elicited caused kids to become procrastinators. And what style is that. The call demanding power. Does it as long as you live on this roof yoga? I don't WanNa hear any lip. I said you do this. Well that causes a child who can't revolt the to just take their time would make the parent. What even mooring. So you wait for the big one and then you get on a little bit of. It's a little control. They can exactly over this kind of thing. And we found particularly. Let me ask you the question. Who Do you think you find this more common? And who do you think causes kids who procrastinate MOMS or DADS? Ooh You know I just keep thinking about my perfectionist grandparents and so I had grandparents who demanded perfection. When we come over our rooms had to be spotless. You know things like that and look to see if there's any literally and they would give you a roll of coins and then they would take one away for every administration a lot of fun. Enzo yeah like I got Nichols. My older sister got quarters which also annoying so I was like what so Yeah so I still had to. My tiny hands had to make the bed. But yeah so but I would guess it would be like a demanding father figure prod list. It was The fathers we blame everything on mom. I'm sorry in this case we're finding it's dad who they report procrastinates a shallower relationship with dad more conflict with. De Less Support Finding from dad giving that profile and everything yes so. It's a learn Tennessee. That's where it comes from the answer. Your question and it tends to begin in the home and this is the way the person has learned to adjust and our culture rewards us for procrastinating. Let me go there for a minute. Okay TAXES ARE COMING UP April fifteenth. Now if you owe money there's absolutely no reason why you should file earlier. I on that stupid right. The covenants cut it wrong. I'm a fan of this is another one of my lines is don't punish for for being late. Progressing reward for being early. How and the government needs to do that. So you can't file in January because you're getting all your papers. The government should say if you can send US stuff in by February fifteenth. We'll let you save five percent. Yeah well the government gets too much earlier you save some money for March fifteenth three percent. Yeah April Fifteenth. You pay it all. That will not work with the twenty percent chronic. Yeah but will work with the eighty percent. Our culture is punitive a cultured punishes. You we don't give the early bird the worm. Let's reward the person it earlier incentivizing. We'll have so many questions but I want to get to patron questions but of course before questions each week we donate to a charity of the all just choosing and this week. The cause of autoimmune vascular research is meaningful to Dr Ferrari and his family so we donated to Vascular Foundation Dot. Org An honor of him and his love. Sharon Ferrari and I looked for an additional charity to send some cash when that helps people afflicted with procrastination. I spent honestly like an hour. Googling googling googling nothing until the line between doing research and just wasting time was so blurred so I could not find a progressive nation charity. I don't think they exist. So Vascular Foundation Dot. Org Is this week's recipient and let that be an indicator of just how little people recognize the impact of procrastination on physical and mental health and on industry anyway that donation was made possible by sponsors of the show who you may hear me talk about now. Spring is approaching. 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Honest have to tell you the truth. Maladaptive lifestyle seems to be a pervasive. And you've been doing it all your life and you're doing an all these settings then you need therapy unique cognitive behavioral therapy. I I don't want to this any of my colleagues but I'm saying find a good clinical psychologist who is trained. Not In time management. Who's going to help you change the way you think in the way you act Suppose you're part of the twenty percent That many of your respondents might have been people who say I only procrastinators one thing or this. This area okay If because they're so concerned about social esteem. What are the think publicly. Post what you have to put it on facebook or instagram. Whatever you use okay and save friends. This is what I gotta do. Contact me three days. They're very concerned about this. We'll think about that. That's not a new technique is see we talk about how technology public posting goes back to God. When I I was in college in the seventies but and I remember reading in the sixties that literature on public posting. You're more likely to do something if it's publicly posted then if you don't so with technology we can use that again. But it's not a new concept. Surround yourself with the doers. Now with people who are going to slack people who are going to get things done. I didn't finish more about the procrastination and perfectionism. Yeah Yeah I just got jumped back there. Okay I I had a one year visiting position into Cuny System City University of New York and while I was there I had business in Baroque College. Well known ex school for business. I had a lot of business majors. Mba's and Psychology student starting to be business so I had to go out and collect data on their jobs and I said let's take vignette. Oh story about a guy. We called him Mr Nolan. He was accompany order. He worked really hard but it never got things in on time happily married fine. Everything's financially stable. But and whenever you asked. I'm working on it at the end of that. Vignette for one-third he calls himself a procrastinator for another third. He calls himself a perfectionist and another third no label okay. So they had people at their workplace. Because I like to use adult. I don't use just commish students at my data because I think it's easy to generalize to non university populations So we had the three peop- The people read and then they filled in measures on whether they were procrastinate. So we compared procrastinators a non procrastinators on how they evaluate another procrastinator. Because my question really was as I listened to these business people. If I'm a procrastinator and my boss is a procrastinator when I come from my annual review at the end of the year she gonNa be easier on me because after all with two of the same. We're going to be harder. So what did we find? Wow it didn't matter if they called himself a perfectionist or procrastinator but the procrastinators more than the non progression one at the fire him. He's the cause of the problem. He terrible horrible. So what's the takeaway if you're a procrastinator and even if you call yourself a perfectionist people are not gonNA like Luther procrastinators. They want to distance themselves from you again. They're very concerned about that. Social Image going back to how to treat it so don't surround yourself with other progresses they're not gonna like you that you surround yourself with non procrastinators. Okay okay so my fellow procrastinators ones who are afraid of doing a bad job and having people mad at you I have good news and bad news there mattis anyway. Everyone hates us for taking too long. We're just screwing ourselves. There's no need to delay it. People can only like us more. This is a revelation in social psychology. Another study we did the so-called social loafing ever hear that social loafing. Yeah that's an Oldie a month. Komo to Ferrari that social loafing in a group setting and the individual performance is not evaluated. But this was like in a classroom setting or job. I want one report from the group. You'll get social loafing okay. People will not do it. Products are notorious for that in his book still procrastinating. The no regrets guide to getting done. Dr Ferrari defines a social loafer as someone say on a group project who just coasts like hangs back. Let's Y'all figure a project out and maybe you think that they are smoking a Doobie and playing bongos in the parking lot. But actually they're wringing their hands in the bathroom worried. They're going to let everyone down so in one. Study WE PROCRASTINATORS. Read other evaluate other people in this scenario. Who were loafing. Oh they were the hell on. Yeah Living Hell. They were public enemy public. A so so even even if you socially loaf they're not gonNA give you a why. Why when they're just like me because again I want to distance myself I. This is not a socially acceptable concept. And a half to tell you I have seen in the last fifteen twenty s a lot more media a lot more on procrastination outdid than ever was when I started yet forty years ago. Yeah thirty got four years ago. Whatever it was there was nothing now. It's a very common thing so back to what you can do. Surround yourself with doers. Publicly Post Don't let people let you get away with it. Hold you accountable okay. And then there's lots of other time time management and he really hesitate as you can hear my voice saying because you don't manage time but Break the test down into smaller chunks. You're here the expression. Don't miss the forest for the trees another. Don't miss the big picture because you're caught up with all the little part. Yeah that's not the progressive problem. They see the forest. They forget that it's what they just see. One big thing. I have to do this thing. Holy Cow I can't just do it. I can't do it right. They see they see the Fart so you teach them cut one tree. You can't entry give me. Three branches can't give three bridges. Take a handful. The leaves because what's the commercial a- body in motion stays in motion. It's more physics okay. That won't you stopping a train very hard once. It's moving so get going. Just do it now not. Nancy Reagan's just say no. Just say now okay. So this. Next question was asked by so many people on Patriots Dot com slash holidays. I'M GONNA say your first names going to do quickly Margaret Shock on a Beatrice Ryan Margaret Eliza Jamie Noah Elizabeth Nucleus Sandra Moses. Ali Zoltan anti-soviet Mike and my first question asking. Bb's Tracy Andrea so the Mia Angela Deborah Maria. Kelly Elliott and savvy or X. Avia. I'm not sure how French you're and now what about things co morbidity is like Adhd say or generalized anxiety disorder. Like what other factors can. Someone MAY BE ATTACK. That might be a component of their procrastination. Yeah in this book. I actually have on tap to twelve looking at procrastination and personnel styles and some of these negative consequences. I hesitate to say this because sometimes you get very annoyed with my comment but there's only been one study that'll get procrastination. Adhd and I did it. And I found practically no relationship really again. People say that such a warden proneness different thrill seeking different easily distracted. Double Yes But not. Adhd are different measures. We use psychology and thrill seeking is emission Zuckerman. Martin Saga Men Zuckerman from. I put it in. Okay yes I look this up in the late. Marvin Zuckerman work focused on sensation-seeking there's even a sensation seeking scale and yeah. I found it online and I took it. I answered this. Nineteen Point Academic Quiz and at the end. It said if you've checked eleven or more of the items you're probably a sensation seeker. If you checked seven or fewer of the items you're probably not a sensation seeker. My score you ready for this six just off the charts risk-averse my friends but if you would agree with statements like I prefer friends who are unpredictable or I often wish I were a mountain climber or I would like to try some of the new drugs that produce hallucinations. You might seek thrills. Ps this quiz was written. In the late. Nineteen sixties grew time. Zuckerman thrill seeking measure shows a eat. All you easily distracted. Are you boredom prone there are people and so while it sounds like Adhd? It's different kinds of. That's true but that's only one study so I'm not willing to say there isn't a relationship although when I say that they get very people in the field get very angry. Your own saying yeah. You know. It's a hard concept for the wraparound progressing because it's sometimes the outcome and sometimes it's the 'cause see I think would? Adhd it's an outcome. Is Procrastinating from that? But then there's also which is on my interest the the caused that where it starts so this two different you know which way you look at it but if nothing else from today show. I hope your listeners realize that everybody procrastinates all right. And that doesn't make you a procrastinator. You told me you had lots of people asking questions. I would bet if we look closer for many of these people. They're just delaying a task or two. And that's okay. You know. Look if I'm a manager I wanted to lay why 'cause I want information from my employees. Give me impose before I jump into a decision. That's not good effective. Good decision making. You need some time to think. Sure but the question is if you have another focus group and another focus and let's do another one now that's the problem is successful Elliott elder. I I'm question. Asker awesome question. I know right. How do you tell the difference between procrastination and not having enough spoons for the task at that moment? like how do you know whether or not you really are overloaded or whether or not. You're procrastinating think of this as a continuum And so yeah. There could be a moment where you have many spoons. A lot of irons in the fire as they say that could be a lot going on But the question is. Are there always irons in the fire? You asked about treatment one simple way to delegate give the tasks to somebody else but if you have too much to do trust at someone else can do this for you that you've mentored wrong or that skilled enough and will they fail. Maybe but if they succeed eight out of ten eighty percent of the time you be happy with that don't harp. On the fact that they failed twice but succeeded eight. You know so so if you have too many irons in the fire. Too many spoons that you have to feed and do that Considering what you have to do and again prioritizing is fine. That's not the same as procrastinating. Is You structuring your procrastination? You are simply learning to prioritize procrastinators a very bad at judging time. Yeah the either underestimate or overestimate. They very good so another technique is to help them learn to practice time not to read a watch. Of course they can do that. But we're telling them practice how much time something's going to take a more or less again. This person might be saying. I have lots of spoons to to to use. Well do you always find that? Are you GONNA judging time? Life is full of peak periods. In times we need to reward people from. There's another suggestion to reward people. Who meet the deadlines so again? If you're a manager and you have a department twenty people thirty people you know you say. I need this report done. We need to get the Snyder. Reports done March fifteenth. All right but if you get into me to look at March first everybody gets the Friday off. I got an incentive again now this next question or a variation of it was asked by Julie Bear Eva Geneva about whether or not. It's better to dangle a reward in front of your own face or to Swat your but mercilessly. So that's the carrot and the stick. As they absolutely too much punishing we don't do enough reward Kendra NEATER CORN S. First question. Asker of how come when I'm procrastinating other tasks. I don't WanNa do seem more appealing like cleaning my kitchen when I should be doing my taxes. What's happening is it like a job responds in return of the Bio again. Elkin not necessary. We don't know and it is bio. It's much more. Correlation Causal Correlate and doesn't mean once causing the other very common mistake people make is they take correlation and they make a causal. Okay so yes. Of course. You're doing something that's more fun than something. That's not fun. But how on the other hand you may be doing task They both need to be done. You've got to do the taxes you've got to do the dishes so as logical. It's not illogic. People aren't logical. Sure I need to do that but at some point is a deadline where the taxes have to be done. And you need to pull that together. Work Together. Dr Ferrari then produced a small weekly calendar the days filled up with Herod notes and tasks each task scratched off deeply in the tight zigzags of ballpoint ink. I'm old fashioned is going to blow you away. Write them down and some weeks away so I write in. Pencil work on the taxes. I think I have that done on Saturday work on taxes next Sunday. Yes I put down a few times so I can do that but sometimes it's even crazier. I prefer this much better than putting it down digitally because I can get much more things that are done this way and I love it when you're crossing things off. You're not just crossing it off your obliterating it perhaps is that. Is there something that's rewarding about? Like done like scratching it off like it's no there's a new body of literature pre crested nation able. Who liked to do things ahead of the time and I may fall more because I don't read it here. I have a calendar in my office and my work office. There's a counter by the desk. And when I turn around all the calendar so I make sure I haven't in both great because the reward is you get to cross it off time. Yeah I mean. Sometimes she will put things on there to do. This area did just enough. We have last questions I always ask. Everyone The the crappiest thing about your job the thing you hate about procrastination the most about your work. But the thing that just irks you the Mo- The worst thing about what you do or the thing you hate the most about procrastination or pizza and the thing I hate about Croatia's people not taking this as a serious problem. You asked me earlier. Do I have empathy for the people who are chronic procrastinator. And the answer is yes and I think our society by not taking it seriously cheapens. It makes it less of a serious kind of thing and I think that's not fair. I think it was Al Green Oh came up with the line. There's a song sexual healing if you're listening to the very last song fades off. Wait what is this? Don't procrastinate and is the only time I ever heard that word used then. There was a singer. I forget her name after my generation. Who has a song called procrastination? Boaz no knows she killed herself. Oh Amy Wine House yes I think. She had a song called procrastinate. Look at so. This leaked Song is titled Procrastination. It's on Youtube. It said to be about amy wine houses trouble writing songs after her debut album and apparently she titled the Song Procrastinate and it along with about a dozen other tracks are to remain in the vault. She wanted them unreleased. In the event of her death also the official cause of death was accidental alcohol overdose which is tragic in gutting and for more on addiction. See The addiction episode. Also as long as we're clarifying things sexual healing is a Marvin Gaye Song and I know that you were just furious. Some of you thinking I'm just GonNa leave that hanging out there but I know when you get that feeling. You need factual dealings anyway. Procrastination is in the hearts and on the lips of so many artists. But it's not procrastination. I just loved that. That's not procrastinating. So what do I hate? I hate that after all these years that I've been talking about this in the media. The conference presentations. They'll people will put me at the end of conferences when I talk because you're on procrastination. Yes that we don't take it seriously as a culture that it's more than a time management issue it's a maladaptive lifestyle for twenty percent of people more than depression and Unmet disinter depression. It's a very serious issue. Yeah Substance Abuse and alcoholism very serious. We treat those very seriously as we showed and we should really treat the chronic. Procrastination be cancelled that. I think people still think it's time management issues because it's socially acceptable kind of thing but that's and that's great. I mean I remember when we were writing back and forth. You don't make light. You know this is the new head itself disclosed. Look if you I l you ladies and I saw Kinda comical anything's I thought she was going to set me up for some. This is not a funny. This is literally the thing in my life. I have a list of things that I want to accomplish in my life. Not even a little bit joking. One hundred percent true. The goal conquer. Procrastination is at the top of that list. Not WanNA scratch it off so hard that the pen rips the paper and so it should procrastinators have a little bit more self compassion a little bit more like hey. Don't be so hard on your sued. Another good topic for you to interview the research. I forgot her book. The there's a great book self-help book forget the author's name on self compassion. Look this up. And he's talking about self compassion expert and austin-based psychology. Professor Dr Kristin Neff. I felt so stupid because I got her confused with shame. Expert Bernard Brown and then I went to Dr. Nef's website self dash compassion dot org did a little poking around. And I was like you know what Hayward it's okay. You got those two researchers confused you are a fleshy vessel of meat and matter. You're not an information. Kiosk at Barnes and noble so thanks Dr Kristof as she weaves a lot of social personality psychology in it. People need to forgive themselves. It's much easier for forgive other people than it is ourselves. And that's a tendency. People have last question. I always ask last question. What's your favorite thing about your job? The exciting part of being an academic a faculty member is you can ask questions and get answers. I love this making me think now I love working with my students who the joy bringing them to a conference and having them present. Can't tell you the joy of that. You just dance the job. It's not the money that's nice but it's not the money it's not. The time is not the schedule. It's seeing the next generation rise euphoric and just think of alcohol. The people that are going to be studying this and there are interested in this view. The I hope that your listeners. Contact me if they're interested. Read Your Book I. What's the name of that book? It's called still progressing in the guide to getting it done by Dr. Joseph are Ferrari. Phd Picture of course. Thank you so much for doing this. Amazing you need your television show. Can you get your own television show? Please phone with me. So ask experts and smart people stupid questions and know that there are actually not stupid questions. That is an ironic statement. Also have compassion for yourself. Celebrate euro curiosity and as Dr Ferrari inscribed in my now dog eared copy of still procrastinating. The no regrets guide to getting it done. Just do it now. So that book is available wherever you get books. And I'll put a link in the show notes as well as links to a lot of the things that we discussed this episode up at Alleyway Dot Com slash holidays slash procrastination because volition. Psychology is too hard to spell. And the last thing you need a harder time getting to those resources so we're at all ogies on instagram and twitter. I'm at Ali Ward with one L. On both come say hi. Befriends shirts and hats and beanies and totes are available at allergies. Merch DOT COM or up at allie WORN DOT com. Thank you Shannon. Feltus and the recently engaged. Bonnie Dutch congrats. Joe Of the PODCAST. You are that for managing merch. Aaron Talbert the podcast. Facebook group and huge. Thanks TO EMILY. White and all the transcribers making transcripts available. They are blazing through them there. So many up and there are so helpful. And I'M GONNA put a link in the show notes where you can get those for free third on my website at alleyway dot com. Thank you to Jarrett sleeper of the mental health. Podcast my good that brain for assistant editing. Also if you liked traumatology episode with Dr Nick Bar he and Jarrett are now doing free weekly mental health livestream on Sundays at ten. Am Pacific Time. I live tweeted last week at the allergies twitter and it's on mixer dot com slash. Mike good bad brain and I'm GONNA put a link in the show notes for that too because it was really great and I think you might like also. Thanks of course as always to Stephen Morris of the podcast see Jurassic right and the per cast putting these together each week with me and bearing with my fears of to stop being enough. He is a saint and I'm working on being faster for my sake and for his. He's the best Nick Thorburn wrote and performed the theme music. And if you listen it until the end of the episode you know tell you secret and this week is that I just realized I was in a sound booth doing some voice over stuff. And yes if you heard me on a grocery store ad that is me and I realized it between takes if you take regular pencil like one of those Dixon. Ticonderoga is you know that has like the Non Rowley sides and you rub it between your palms already. I'm GonNa do this is hell. Asmar okay ready. Do this sounds like a cat more of a dog person. But if you ever Mr cat or you need to be soothed you can try that we are thinking. Okay provide packer. Those who allergy meteorology.

Enzo Ferrari Ferrari Chicago Dr Ferrari research psychologist Sharon Ferrari Dr Ferraris US New York Austin California Academy of Sciences Smith Adhd San Francisco Casey Monceau Casey mullins Billy Ferraro official
Mouse Vs Scorpion: A Mind-Blowing Desert Showdown

Short Wave

12:50 min | 1 year ago

Mouse Vs Scorpion: A Mind-Blowing Desert Showdown

"You're listening to shortwave from NPR. You but watching prestige nature documentaries is my idea of a wild Friday night. The scorching sun means many desert animals. Only come out at night. And there's a new one on net flicks narrated by the amazing Samarra Wiley called night on earth where a little desert mouse a tiny grasshopper. Mouse comes face to face with the Scorpion. Might want to steer clear. This is in the Sonoran desert. Well desert is in like western New Mexico and and sort of extends down into Sonora Mexico. That's Lauren esposito on the curator of Iraq -nology at the California Academy of Sciences. Scorpions Aka arachnids team score. All the way. Yeah you see where this is going. Hey Lauren how's it going up so that's ashleigh ro? I'm an assistant professor in the Biology Department at the University of Oklahoma Ashley Studies the Grasshopper Mouse. Which is I believe. This is the scientific term adorable. There's for like like Mickey Mouse. And he's big ears and these big eyes and these long whiskers a slick really innocent cute. We absolutely had to get Ashley and Lauren Together. So we could learn everything about what happens next. Many animals tried to avoid venomous scorpions. Everybody's gotta eat but not this little weather in a flash. The mouse attacks the Scorpion. He's a Scorpion. Eating specialist completely ignores like multiple stings to the face. His body can block the pain from even the most lethal Scorpion. Toxins and rips. The Scorpions tail off sting disowned each the scorpions scorpion dispatched and then howls into the sky. He claims his territory. Tiny scream yeah they how. It's pretty normal. Admit that this episode a mouse versus Scorpion showdown. That seriously will blow your mind. I'm Maddie Safai shortwave daily science podcast from NPR. A quick note here on the Mouse Scorpion. Throwdown in the Netflix show. That Scorpion is called the giant Hairy Scorpion. For the purposes of this scholarly discussion. We've substituted the Arizona Bark Scorpion also a Scorpion. This mouse likes to eat but way more intense venom and therefore cooler. All right. Yo. You ready to throwdown ready. Yes ready so as you both know. We don't want to make this feel too competitive. It's just a low key easygoing science based conversation about two mortal enemies list one corner from the dry and your sons Sonoran desert Reagan at Ashley. How much do these mice way? Anywhere between twenty to fifty grams about an ounce but it's the grasshopper how many other corner from a little dirt whole under a rock down the herd soderbergh Scorpio. So we're going to break down this fight between these two little babies and learn as much as we can about them in the next ten minutes. So I'm good. Sounds we're do it all right so Ashley this grasshopper mouse. It's going out searching for Scorpions. Is this like its primary snack? Or what is it? What is it going after out there? So in some areas that is a primary snack. Yeah grasshopper mice are distributed throughout short grass prairies and deserts in North America so in some areas. They'll eat spiders. Scorpions lizards small birds. They will eat other my birds. They're small birds. Birds was the one that cut. It's hard to imagine the sign a little mouse eating bird. Will they do? Actually if you like you can't house two males together. The males are really aggressive so they will kill each other. Yeah to each other when they kill each other they do they eat the brain they did expose the brain out. They know that that's brain. Yeah I understand that podcasting is a medium but I would strongly suggest our listeners. At this point pull up a picture of spouse because it was so cute. No it doesn't like you think you see a picture of them and you're like Oh this is a really adorable mouths and then you learn. They kill each other and eat their brains out there. Do not be fooled. Don't be okay. Okay so learn when the battle starts. It's possible that the Scorpion is ready with like a particular kind of venom for this situation. I didn't know that they had different types of venom. Yea well so actually like one. Single Individual Scorpion can produce up to two hundred unique compounds in its cocktail. Venom and We have some preliminary evidence suggesting that they're able to express different parts of that cocktail in different circumstances. So if they're trying to defend themselves they might be using the more expensive Peptides that cause pain or if they're trying to capture some pray they might be using some of the the less like metabolic costly things like salts and enzymes that is all they really need to break down a cricket so cool so you know these scorpions. Don't get enough credit out here. They're making different types of venom. Yeah when you think about it. The Scorpions have really small. And when they're trying to subdue their prey they just need to paralyse it really quickly so it can't get away but when they're trying to defend themselves from their predators with they really want to do is deliver a stinging blow that just stuns the Predator and gets them dropped so they can escape and I think what ash is referring to. Is this idea this hypothesis that people have proposed called the venom conservation hypothesis which is basically says like if your if your body to produce things and those things cost you energy to produce you. WanNa use the least amount in any given circumstance so you don't WanNa waste all your energy honestly say you know what I mean. I'm not trying to do too much. I'm never going to walk that far to the gym. Okay so arguably one of the coolest parts of this is that the Scorpion gives the mouse. Theo like one two with a tale like staying is thing the right term right. So just POPs him bo-bo with some sting vibes after that. The mouse is like you're going to have to do better than that Scorpion. So Ashley what is going. Well the short answer is that the mouse has evolved resistance to the painful toxins in the venom and so they can get stung multiple times their face but the mice I they groom a little bit like it is taking their irritated by it. But then it's like the pain is just over. And then they go in. They go back in for the attack. And then they get look in their eyes and Lauren just to be clear Arizona Bark. Scorpions are not producing joke venom. It's pretty potent right. Yeah so they can produce venom that could potentially kill like a small child. It's no joke. I mean it's really serious venom. And and in some of their close relatives that in northern Mexico those species are producing Benham. That could kill an adult like a human. Yeah Yeah we should say that. It's not like it just is resistant or whatever to this potential Venom Ashley. It makes the mouse more powerful. What tell me? So when the mice gets stung Their pain pathway or the sensory neurons that make up their pain. Pathway there modified to The proteins in the venom actually block those paint signals they bind to those sensory neurons and they actually blocked the pain signals. Then they're actually less sensitive to other painful stimuli after they've been stung it's like it's like the venom becomes an analgesic for them. It becomes a pain. Blocker is I mean Lauren. That's pretty cool. You gotTA give that up. I know I know you're there but it's pretty team Scorpion. But it's pretty cool like bike and take something that's supposed to be like extremely painful and turn it into something that makes me not feel any pain anymore. It'd be Pretty Up Okay so so Warren. You've described this to me as kind of like an evolutionary arms race between Scorpion Venom and the mouses ability to resist venom. Tell me about that. Well what we think is that over time. The Scorpions have evolved stronger and stronger venom. As a way to get around an escape these really super vicious terribly awful mice and so what happens is over time. The mouse gets stronger. The Scorpion gets stronger and increases for all of evolutionary history. That these two have been in contact. It's just like a tail as old as time. I think you know the really cool thing about this whole so this whole arms race stories that it's because of the work that Ashley has been doing that we actually have direct evidence that they're currently engaged in this in this evolutionary arms race Because she's found the different populations are are more or less resistance to the Scorpions that live with them are in different places so this really because actually likes to experiment with my. Scorpions that we that we know they're locked in this battle for life. We see you out here actually row. We see you out here okay. So maybe my favorite part and I know this isn't necessarily something you guys study is after the mouse kills and each this Scorpion. He throws his tiny little mouse head back points his nose at the dark desert sky and he claims his territory. I just love it. It's a very ferocious moment. If you're out there in the desert at night especially around dusk when I started emerging from their burrows you. You can't see them. I mean it's really hard to actually see went out there But you can hear them. They start howling calling to each other. And it's sort of A. Hey I'm out here. This is my territory because they do. They have large territories and they can't always see each other but they can hear each other so in this video. Obviously the mouse is out on top. But give me an idea of like. Is that most of the time the case or are the Scorpions mostly getting away? What's the situation so in the real world? We think the Scorpions get away. Some of the time. Yeah and Scorpions are amazing. In that they know when there's a Predator around They can sense it. They feel vibrations on the surface of the desert Yeah and they've got these these slits in Silla on their feet which are visited like tiny little years in their feet. They're like Viper Tori organs that pick up by breaching and so a lot of times. They can orient themselves to the direction of an oncoming Predator prey that they just feel and they know like how basically how big it is because of how much vibration it's making in which direction it's approaching from so they're like Brady I can't these are such cool critters. I don't think it was. That was great. You just said little ears on their feet. I had not thought that way. I was a struggling. Like what are those little? I know they're like because I know. Yeah these Scorpions. When we're out collecting. They know that we're after them. They're fast they're actually hard to catch her they. Actually you should just be bringing me actually come to learn when she calls them at this age. Yeah I do. I just do a whistle those Scorpion we got. I gotta take you Scorpion Hunting Ashley. Rowe and Lauren esposito Ashley and other. Scientists are still trying to better understand the painkilling abilities of the grasshopper mouse to help design. Better non addictive painkillers for humans. If you want to read about that or more on either of these magazine critters we've got you covered in the episode notes. This episode was produced by Brian. Bachmann edited by Veit. Lay and fact checked by Emily von. I'm Madison and we're back. Tomorrow it's more shortwave from NPR.

Scorpions Ashley Lauren NPR Sonoran desert Lauren esposito New Mexico Samarra Wiley Iraq assistant professor University of Oklahoma Ashley California Academy of Sciences North America Netflix Lauren esposito Ashley Sonora Mexico ashleigh ro cricket Maddie Safai
Virology (COVID-19) with Dr. Shannon Bennett + various ologists

Ologies

1:26:19 hr | 1 year ago

Virology (COVID-19) with Dr. Shannon Bennett + various ologists

"Oh Hey it's your friend who washes her hands roughly five times more often than she did last week. Ali Ward back with a special APP of allergies so this episode coming out March tenth and it was not even conceived of until a few days ago. But guess what we needed. I wanted it. We made it so. Pass it on to anyone who needs a distillation of what the hell is going on and how much we should be freaking out. It's fascinating informative. I'm so glad all just available but I kind of a secret up top. I mentioned last year as a secret at the end of an episode that I was shooting a new show for Netflix. And y'all if finally comes out this week on March thirteenth this Friday it's called one hundred humans he and it's bananas. We got one hundred. People who represent the demographics of the United States and alongside social psychologists and statisticians ran them through experiments to see if people are more biased than they are. And if having fun makes you more productive and if the placebo effect works in New Age Spa Treatments and what age group could build furniture the fastest. It's wild it's out March thirteenth. It's on Netflix. Please do watch it tweet about it. The Hash tag is one hundred. Humans also. Thank you to everyone who has ever contributed Patriot dot com slash apologies and made this show possible. Thanks everyone who's out there wearing aldis merch and for everyone who boosts the show and keeps it up among the science giants just by rating it and making sure you're subscribed texting links to your friends like virus and of course those of you who review it for me to creep and weep such as this week's from boombox out who says dear dad word. I'm ready because it has a rather big news I wanted to share with you. I got into Grad School. That was all caps. Sorry to shout at you but I'm just so very excited listening to your wild and Wacky. Podcast inspired me to finally finally pursue my dream of a PhD. So thanks for that and all the hard work you do show us it. Smart people are really just people like the rest of US awkward. Gross funny suffering from Imposter Syndrome and all the rest Mubarak's out hell yes to a botany related episode. One day go also listener Cagey demerist. Happy to have a scatalogical smile on your face. Okay Virology in it. Let's get into it. Had planned to interview the Director of Science at the California Academy of Sciences this petite. Brunette bad ass. Dr Shannon Bennett for Kholsa Dodgy episode about Mosquitos and Skater Diseases and malaria and dengue fever and Zeka and I arrived with your patron questions in hand and as her wonderful assistant. Andrew was walking me down the hallway. Hander he mentioned the Dr Bennett had just given a talk to all the staff members of the Academy of Sciences about covert nineteen as she is a viral. It is very up on the topic and the research in the outreach. Hot Damn I said. Let's change US entire thing. We're doing virology which comes from the Latin virus meaning poisonous substance which comes from the word for sap of plants or a slimy liquid a potent juice which is after all what is dripping from our face openings threatening to kill friend and foe alike and we're all pretty scared and confused now because this is a really huge and important topic. I figured let's make this kind of a bit of a salad with more than one. Allah. Just let's make it a special up. Let's get a little crazy. I also reached out to previous guests including disaster. All Gist Dr Samantha. Montano I sprinkled in some wisdom from disinfect geologist. And Bleach Chemist Dr Evan Rempsberger and also touched base with beloved Cairo urologist. Dr Merlin Tuttle about pointing are on webbed fingers accusations toward the back but the backbone of this special episode is Dr Shannon Bennett. Who sat down for a full length chat about her work and this new novel virus. She's knowledgeable and passionate and addresses not only the genetics of the virus but the symptoms and infection rate and prevention and testing. And how we should handle the fear and the seeming chaos of pandemic and what these virus population curves mean. And if you're freaked out that's okay but you will leave it feeling armed and empowered. I promise so. Wash your hands. Communists and feed your brains with this bonanza of Corona with four just folks at disaster handler hygiene scientists a- Batman and of course chief of science at the California Academy of Sciences Virologist. Dr Shannon Bennett okay. I handed Dr Bennett. Mike and Instantly apologized that she had to touch something I touched and we were off. I'm GonNa give you this again. I'm sorry no wash later. We're impermeable yes right. Yes only if we take this and touch our is knows about washing. So we're said that's a good point. Stop touching my face. Fifth on average fifteen times an hour ninety times a day. We touch our face. We don't even know. Are you serious yet? And I think it's part of our grooming heritage you know as primates we groom and we're always grooming and we just don't even know it can. We can't touch other people's faces right well that socially we don't usually do that. But okay good to know and you are a molecular Meteorologist you are virologist. You got a lot of allergies on your belt. It's really fun yet. How many you also microbiology to I. Call my civil microbiologist. Because I studied viruses in the context of the rest of the microbial world they live in and so- virologist and microbiologist why not yeah and molecular epidemiologists. And you've got a busy week. You've got a busy couple of weeks haven't you? It's been very exciting. Ooh My goodness your work. I know has you've spent a lot of your time looking at mosquitoes and malaria and dengue fever. And You yourself. I understand not just been a doctor but also a patient in this right. Yes yeah I think you really have to know your steady organisms intimately? What better way to do that than to be a host yourself? It was not done on purpose though. Right part of the experience that led to my origin stories as an apologist. You tell me a little bit about. When did you start looking at things? That are microscopes. When did you start wondering about how things jump from animals to humans when it all happen right so I I liked biology? I liked being outdoors but outdoors and biology. That's a huge spoke of things you could focus on and I had no focus until very late in my undergraduate program. I had an opportunity to go to west Africa and volant as a volunteer for the summer and I worked with Communities to talk about primary healthcare challenges but using theater really interested in theater and As a teaching tool and in the daytime I taught grade five math in the evenings. I taught A theater program Y'All this August. Journeys started because she was a theater nerd hall my heart and like every good citizen. I went to my public health professional. I got all the vaccines and anti malaria. Medicines that I needed and six weeks later I had to Africa and within two weeks. I caught malaria. And everybody said this malaria's resistant to all those anti-malaria you Westerners are prescribing. This mosquito borne parasite. It's not a virus. Malaria is caused by a parasite. A you carry a related to us. At the cellular level it had evolved resistance and continues to evolve resistance very rapidly so that was my first lesson a things change. Yes then I saw. I was wrestling with malaria. Fever chills cycle. That is a hallmark of that pathogen. And I've picked up amoebic dysentery. Oh yeah so maybe dysentery is caused by a little us. Also you carry a single celled animal end to me hissed the LYRICA. So it history. Linda comes from the fact that it melts your tissues in your colon on your intestine and creates bloody all servers and so the first hallmark is you lookin' UC bloody stool. So I saw a lot of blood on my stole I. Gala concerned shirt enough I had amoebic dysentery still wrestling with fever chills from malaria. Mike so they shipped me off to a leper colony Leprosy's caused by a Tyrian so they literally set you to a leper colony only place to get nursing care. I thought that was like Perhaps an exaggeration but no it's true. I was hospitalized. Leper colony had nursing. Care there and legacy. Even though there's a lot of social stigma around leprosy It actually is not very infectious. It's transmitted through family so it can look infectious. Just like corona virus. Right now is being transmitted through families. But it turns out that it's a combination of long intimate exposure and genetic predisposition so it's not very infectious. So is perfectly fine for me to be hospitalized a leper colony was a very very casual pleasant experience. But I saw lots of evidence of people with leprosy or recovering from leprosy in typically causes your lower extremities to atrophy and drop off eventually so so that was interesting. I had also picked up a skin infection while I was there. So we have microbes on our skin A whole complement of them. One of them is a staphylococcus bacterium. Which basically I had an open wound. I think it was a mosquito bite that I'd scratched. Or maybe it was a cut on my leg and it got infected with staff and I. Who's getting spiky fevers from from staff? So stri Asians down my leg. It was all very exciting so I had a double triple whammy of to eukaryotes bacteria and then I was surrounded by bacterial infection so I had a lot of time to languish in the hospital. You were a hot mess as think about my polite and I understand that things were out there all the time. They're either in human communities or non human communities they're evolving their changing I came out of it with kind of a new. A deep appreciation and admiration for the incredible diverse world of microorganisms. Whether they're viruses or bacteria or you carry it's and what it was to be a host and what it was to be a parasite and conquer all these barriers right like a worthy adversary type of respect. They call it an arms race and truly. That's maybe not quite fair because they have us beat in terms of being able to evolve more rapidly and have more on the line right so Dr Bennett says that viruses are under a lot of pressure to be really good at being effective parasites whereas we have to defend ourselves against all kinds of things not just these viruses. So were outsmarted mostly. Oh and speaking smarts. She went on to get her bachelor's of science in biology from McGill University and her PhD in Zoology from the University of British Columbia. But that was after she recovered from her hands on experience with pathogens. And how did you keep your spirits up when you were in a leper colony with three diseases? It was incredibly inspiring to see people with leprosy making a positive contribution to their own lives in each other's lives it was a they called these leper colonies because they're ostracized. And basically they worked together they Have a a an economy? They were creating crafts and they were innovating ways of sustainable farming before the rest of the world was even thinking about it. So caging animals over fishponds so the poop whip fertilize the fishes and then they have this sort of way of You know keeping the whole thing going. So it's very admirable approach to living with the disease. Yeah and then while I was in the Leper Colony. There was an attempted coup. I Beg your pardon. This was in Liberia in nineteen eighty nine so it was the first herberger of the nineteen ninety-one civil war. So I was there I was. I heard all the gunshots machine gunfire Canadian so I don't have deep experience with firearms anyway that it was on such an intense scale that It was it was incredible and it was while I was in the leper colony that I thought I was almost thankful for being there thankful for being sick and in a leper colony with all the stigma that implies and they basically avoided. Us entirely went through the village where it was definitely There were deaths and other atrocities of war and we were completely isolated and protected from that never complaining about anything again ever Harris. I'd say my life. Oh my God and now when it comes to viruses is a virus parasite what is a virus. What does it look like Raider? We dealing with so I consider the term parasite many do as more of a way of life than it is a particular branch of the tree of life. Okay because parasite literally means to dine at another table. It comes from a Greek word. So it's really a way of making your way in the world and it's evolved independently across many many different Groups OF LIVING ORGANISMS. That can be parasitic. Viruses can be parasitic eukaryotes and then across the tree of life many different kinds of eukaryotes can be parasitic from single celled organisms. Like Gre were into me about or plasmodium which causes malaria all the way to Nemo toads and tapeworms and flat worms and all those great gourmet stuff. So it's a way of life so choice. Now arguably many folks do not classify viruses themselves as living organisms because they kind of cheat and use the host cellular machinery. Metabolize is what everyone's dickering about. Oh but I consider them a life form. What are the basic components of a virus? And what's the Difference Between Lincoln? Aren a virus. Like what when you got this spiky little globe coming to take over your life. What is it equipped with so viruses are fairly simplified? But they're very diverse and they. They're not even one single lineage. So when we talk about viruses they probably arose multiple times. Or if they didn't and if they evolved from the same ancestor. We can't track it back far enough in time to say one way or the other. They have fairly simple structure and it depends on which group viruses. You're talking about the virus's I work on. Have a simple what we call a a nuclear captured sort of a Lipid Beyeler Membrane with proteins. Stick off of it and that membrane structure contains the genetic information of the virus. And then that's it so genetic information some kind of coding and then some proteins that stick off the end in the case of viruses that infect you carry oats they use these proteins to bind to the host cell and then fuse into the host cell past the host membrane into the cellular Moosh body of the host cell. And then that's where they've picked up all this other these other functions they need. They co up the host genome to make the building blocks that they need to replicate their genome so imagine a double layer outside the has all these very fetching protein accessories that just stick onto your cells bust into them and then hack. You're coding to make more of itself. It's slick also impolite. And then depending on the kind of genome and that too is very diverse across the different viral groups so they are viruses with double stranded. Dna genomes like ours and there are viruses with single stranded genomes like the new novel. Corona virus and the the mosquito borne viruses. I study in the Flavor Vera Day family which includes Dingane Sika tiny a little bit about the novel coronavirus. Why is it called the novel coronavirus? Why is it cove in nineteen like and how long have we even had an inkling that it existed? So it's gotten a new name now we got all on the same page and we are calling it. The name officially is SARS corona virus to see cool. Okay so it's SARS stands I severe acute respiratory syndrome virus so corona virus co V and. There was a SARS corona virus. It emerged in late. Two thousand to two thousand and three in Hong Kong of via a wet market similar to this situation and it's about eighty percent related to this corona virus. So that's why we're calling it. Sars corona virus to okay. It has even closer relatives in known viruses. That are out there. A bunch of viruses that were described from wild bats. The I think it's called the Horseshoe Bat in China and in Twenty fifteen twenty seventeen. Some of those viruses are up to ninety six percent related to this virus. So in theory we've known about this particular virus or at least it's very very close relatives since twenty fifteen maybe even okay her twenty seventeen but we didn't know about this specific virus until it was first documented in China in the city of Wuhan an associated with a case. Cluster around market a wholesale. It's called seafood market on on seafood wholesale seafood market. But it sells lots of other different kinds of things including live animals wild and domesticated animal severi. It's got lots of different potential bridge. Vectors Abridge animals that could have brought the virus from bat reservoir to humans. But we don't we don't know And that case cluster was right around the end of December December thirtieth twenty nineteen so the disease that this is causing. It's called Corona virus disease. So the name of that is called co vid nineteen so that's where covered nineteen comes from. Oh God it for the year okay for the year and for the disease so it's just like HIV is human immunodeficiency virus. Disease is AIDS so same thing Hiv Virus AIDS as the disease SARS covy to is the virus code. Nineteen is the disease that makes so much sense. Yeah okay so covet. Nineteen Corona vie role disease from twenty nineteen co vid nineteen also after doing a Cairo ophthalmology episode. I know that bats get a lot of flack they take a lot of Guano from us and then how do they know that? It wasn't from a snake that a bat eight or do they know for sure that it was bats because the bats are so beleaguered when IT COMES TO INFECTIOUS DISEASES. So for bats it depends. Actually bats are hit way harder by fungi and with viruses. Maybe it depends so the way right now. All we know is based on the genetic information that the virus were collecting now shares with viruses that were collected from other bats. There was also viruses that were collected kind of accidentally from a survey of other animals. And in this case it was a Pangolin. And we call Meta Genomic because we were just people were characterising the entire genetic soup without maybe looking for this particular out there. In nature there have been from independently from bats from pangolins sequences. That look similar to this virus that was collected from. Humans are gotta but there's not been a direct link to any particular animal in the market that could have been the bridge vector or even any particular bat in the market yet could have been linked to this emergence event. So it's all being done using circumstantial evidence of the actual genetic relationship of the virus and that's different from SARS and SARS. They actually went and sampled specimens in the market and were able to draw direct link. So we're not there yet. We're using the genetic information and the virus to say. This is what it is okay. So what does one do on a Saturday morning? Hop on the Horn with your favourite bad expert so dial that the bat phone where Khairallah Gist and bat conservationist Dr Merlin title of Merlin Tuttle Dot. Org was standing by. I wanted to get obviously your opinion in your expertise on corona virus and how the Bat conservation community is kind of dealing with rumors and just about bats being in the spotlight in a negative way or were deeply concerned. I've had emergency requests from Malaysia. China and men. Mar All just in the last couple days. Trying to head off the ratification of bats. I'm sure that your line ear bat phone is probably pretty overwhelmed right now. Right our gain contact from all over the world. It's a huge setback for conservation of bats worldwide. Now whether some of these corona viruses in other animals first evolved in. Bats isn't doesn't seem to me to be overly relevant to the current situation. Current situation involves eating. You know the first hypotheses were that it came from eating Crates snakes that was on the pangolins and I even read one paper where they said but they weren't going to go further with this in penguins which had nine nine percent match. They found anywhere from about eighty percent to ninety six percent genomic match with bats. That's really pretty mainland given that we're ninety six percent genomic Chimpanzees I don't think anybody going on a date is worried about whether their dates gonNA turn out to be a chimpanzee very true even even on tender. You don't know what you're going to get but you're probably not going to get you know all all life on earth is related at some point. What we know is that we have searched that far more intensely than other animals because their dream come true you can set a net or trap in front of a cave with thousands of ads and have all you can handle in terms of sampling in minutes. They're quick and easy to handle by comparison. How would you like to go out and try to get thirty? Cobras for your sample or or thirty hyenas. I mean you know that most of the other animals are hardly being looked at relative to bats. Bats make absolutely superb scapegoats. They are little understood to begin with and combined match them with viruses which are little understood and you know the only people know about are the ones that kill us. We have more viruses in our bodies than we have. Sales people fair. They rarely tolerate off and kill. Every animal on earth carries viruses. That could potentially be harmful. There is no animal on earth more dangerous than our fellow. Humans yet were fingering scapegoats to seemingly avoid admission of horror. Real problems are so researchers. Think that while it may have been hanging out in bats for a long while it wasn't until humans came in contact with perhaps a penguin which is an animal that looks like kind of a cross between an ant eater and some wind chimes made of seashells. But they're critically endangered in some areas. Because they're the world's most trafficked mammo their prized for their meat and the medicinal properties of their scales so humans tend to come in contact with these intermediate hosts like camels and Pangolins and sibits when we're catching and eating them so the finger kind of points back to us as a species and as long as we're talking about finger-pointing during talk Dr Bennett gave the Cal Academy. She made another great point about the xenophobia that can spike during an outbreak and she reminds us that these pedic's come from all corners of the globe from all kinds of animals are common flu has killed by CDC estimations between twelve thousand and thirty thousand people in the US just since October twenty nineteen and the two thousand nine H. N. Ones wine flu which came from pinks in. North America infected eleven to twenty one percent of the global population killing half a Million People Merce Aka Middle East Respiratory Syndrome AKA CAMEL. Flu can be transmitted through contact with camels or by ingesting unpasteurized camel milk. And it's a highly dangerous disease to those with COMBER ENTITIES. Sars Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome initially came on the scene in two thousand and two in though the mortality rate was high there were just over eight thousand cases resulting in seven hundred seventy four deaths so influenzas can be much more threatening now. Sars and Moore's are both corona viruses which are round spiky things. They're almost an adorable pestilence. And I've seen pictures of it. It looks like a cush ball an evil evil Kush ball. Erica dog toy right bad intentions just trying to live life. I know just trying to do hustle. We just don't really like it. It's K I mean congrats for being so successful so fast but we don't like it What exactly is it. And how is it different from other corona viruses? Because he's a cold virus technically no not well not necessarily I should say so we when we refer to the common cold. There's actually tons of things that can cause common cold. Yeah so there are a group of viruses called Rhino viruses. That cause common cold like symptoms. There's a there are two corona viruses that jumped into humans from animal. Reservoirs that are in a different group of Corona viruses. That I think up to twenty ten to twenty percent of common colds. Maybe thirty are due to these human corona viruses. But they're in a completely different cluster. than these Coruna viruses that includes Moore's and SARS and SARS to now those are called these. This new. This other group is called the Beta Corona viruses. And they are not typically what we think of as common cold like symptoms common cold is usually upper respiratory with Nasal Feren. Jalen throat and a lot of blowing your nose and sneezing whereas this virus as well as SARS one are more associated with and murders in fact with pneumonia like symptoms so they're infecting the lower respiratory tract. Got So the same with SARS too. Is that it seems to be associated with mostly lower respiratory and that comes with certain pathogenic implications. Because that's where you would get sorted. Pneumonia like symptoms associated with the lower respiratory tract. Okay so most of this interview with Dr Bennett took place in an office but afterward I thought of a few more questions so I met up with her in the planetarium the cal academy that evening after her talk. And before our museum nightlife panel to ask her just a few more things so this virus and facts respiratory tissue so it's mostly lung tissue lower respiratory to share and then sometimes upper respiratory so basically the symptoms are associated with a dry cough Fever fevers must common symptom. Eight percent of all sick people develop fever and is not a particularly high fever. So a hundred point four degrees and up so people should check their temperature Dry cough fatigue kind of like when you get the flu. You feel. Body can fatigue And then shortness of breath and shortness of breath we used to think was the most common symptom up there with fever as the most common symptom. But it's maybe about twenty percent of people develop shortness of breath. Okay I heard that covert nineteen can cause your lungs to fill up with blood or is that just a rumor so the people that are really getting this disease vary severely are getting ammonia. So anything that infects your lower respiratory tract can eventually result in pneumonia and that's basically an inflammatory response of your body that fills your lungs up with fluid fluid that your body produces to fight infection but it. Kinda goes crazy. It's what we call a site a kind storm. So there are many kinds of pneumonia. It's basically inflammation of the lungs. It can be caused by bacteria different kinds of bacteria. This is definitely consistent with viral pneumonia. Which is really mostly associated with this sort of overwhelming site. A kind of spots. So it's a big immune response that you're getting if you're coughing a lot and you're trying to get rid of the fluid in your lungs. Probably blood might be in the sputum but in general it's sad pneumonia case. I Know Sida kind are proteins made by your immune system and they do all kinds of signalling to moderate inflammation and immunity. When those cytokines go little hog wild it can affect the entire body doing really intense damage lungs and deliver and the kidneys and so a cytokine storm can cause multiple organ failure. So just think about that when you feel too lazy to wash your hands well or when you just can't resist touching your face multiple organ failure versus using some soap. So what is okay but now back to the structure of the actual virus. It's a corona virus because of the spike proteins. That US Prakash off of the I mentioned that the viruses have this containing nuclear capsule the genomes inside and then sticking off of this new click caps. It are proteins that are really important to help the virus bind to the host cell. And then fuse. So what they have to do. Is they bind and then they trick the host cell into basically engulfing it it's called FAGO psychosis a Gulf it into an internal bubble inside the cell called in end zone and then once it's enclosed in the south it needs to punch through the host cell membrane to get into the side of plaza of the cell. And do its thing okay. And so it uses proteins to both bind to the cell and then once it gets engulfed it uses us at it uses proteins to tunnel to to basically open up a gateway oof us and and pump itself in and so the spike protein is very important in SARS coronavirus two as well as SARS corona virus one original For binding to the host cell. So it it's these proteins determine the The what we call the host Trope ISM the kind of host it can bind to and then kind of cells within that host. They can move into. So they're very important. They they give it this sort of beautiful halo effect because Spike Proteins. Kind of stick out like a funny crown. Yeah that's where the corona comes from and that's where the corona trump and now I've seen the exponential growth curves and have you seen that animated graph where they're all just kind of cruising along and then you see corona virus and you just see it on this upward trajectory. That is horrifying right. Why is it so scary and so successful so fast? So there's a lot of unanswered questions. We know that it's spike protein. Does differ from SARS the first stars. The first SARS was was different in that it caused a higher rate of mortality. So case fatality rate was around ten percent but it didn't transmit quite as rapidly you would get infected with the virus and then it might take four to five days to develop symptoms. We call that the incubation period and then for days after that another four to five days you wouldn't be able to transmit. Oh and then you only start to transmit after you'd been sick so it made SARS the first SARS easy to contain even though it was scary deadly so this virus is not as deadly okay. It's rolling in at around it. The estimates vary depending on whether it's a population of older people with Co Morbidity or other health challenges but it's coming right around three percent rochester minus but what about conflicting reports. That say the danger is no big deal less than a fraction of a percent versus others that put the death rates much higher. Who's lying to us? And what do they want out of? It is nobody lying. Is everybody lying? What we're saying so there are two words being used here. One is mortality and one is case fatality rate. Oh so we don't know how many people have the virus so if you divided the number of deaths by all the unknown people that could have it. Then yeah maybe the mortality rate. Be Pretty Low Leah. But what we're saying is it's about that. Sars had a one in one ten died that was the case fatality rate okay and so with SARS coronavirus to cove nineteen the case fatality rate. Since we're talking about Cova nineteen disease. Now Yeah that is you know. Three three point four percent okay. So that's when you know it's a case what what's the chances of dying so you have to be really careful what you divide it by okay. The deaths by the total number of known cases or the total number of potential infections. And that's a really really hard number to get a handle on you because unlike SARS one where you had your incubation period and then you had your symptomatic period and then just should could transmit with SARS too. You could start transmitting right away even before you have any symptoms or at least we think we don't know exactly when but you're a symptomatic period can last or incubation period can last up to two weeks on average seven six seven days up to two weeks now and and as far as we know people can transmit before they're symptomatic so that means it's a lot harder to get a handle on so when people report cases that could be as long as fourteen days. After they've been capable of transmitting these other people so the estimate of the reproductive rate of the virus is pretty high. Yeah that it's faring. From any one individual could infect to others up to four others and in some places in closed settings like nursing homes or cruise ships the transmission the reproductive rate of the virus has been even higher way higher. Yeah so on. The order of measles higher we as reproductive rate of twelve to eighteen. Okay so quick recap the reproductive rate means how many other folks and infected person could spread it to so spreading an airborne disease to twelve to eighteen others yet. There's a reason that measles vaccines are a good idea. Now the Flus reproduction rate is about one point three meaning. If you've got it you'll give it to about one point. Three people and SARS Cova to is estimated at about two point two. But it's still pretty early right now. As of March night twenty twenty there have been one hundred thirteen thousand reported cases of Kobe. Nineteen and about half of those sixty two thousand are fully recovered. Three thousand eight hundred ninety five people have died so remember that rate of reproduction for SARS covy to can vary a lot depending on the close corners and some folks are in living situations that put them at greater risk so people are concerned because we don't know how many infections are out there. That could be transmitting. And when we report cases were really only getting the tip of the iceberg. You don't know how big the base of the iceberg is. So that's why we're trying to prepare ourselves for you. Describe the epidemic curve in China. We know we can look back and trace the epidemic curve. We know that it started that the low levels of cases started in the end of December. We actually can use genetic information to predict the origins of that human form. And it's looking like mid to end of November that this ancestral virus was around the one. That's causing cove in nineteen. It's we started to detect the cases December thirtieth. We started to see growing cases through January. Big boost through Chinese New Year's and we are peaking through February and and finally we're hitting the the top of the curve and now if you look at the cumulative cases it's starting to level off okay and if you're looking at the number of new cases per day it's starting to go back down the other side. Oh Okay and this whole thing in China at least from ramping up to hitting the peak to going down. The other side has taken about two months or so okay. Two and a half months so the big question here on the. Us's when we will start to hit that curve and start to really increase exponentially in terms of the number of cases that we detect and then how high that curve will go. Will it be as intense as it wasn't China or will we use different methodologies to keep it flatter And if we flatten the curve. Will that make the curve last longer? So if you look at overall. Cova nineteen cases the curve starts off small and then goes skyward and it still headed skyward. That's overall global. But if you look at just mainland. China where most of the cases have originated. It reached a peak in. It's starting to cruise to the right instead of going straight up. So where can you get? Covert nineteen data. I'll put links to these sources on next train and get hub at Elliot Dot com slash gs slash virology but where can you get? Covert Nineteen itself. And now where is it? Is it on door. Handles it on airplane trays. Like yes where where is it and how do we not get it right? So this is what we call a virus that transmits by airborne droplets. Okay there has been some evidence of fecal Tab fecal transmission so it has been found in in those kinds of body products. He would've already. Yeah but when we say airborne droplets that basically means that it's in the water droplets that we produce when we sneeze or cough or if we're rubbing her eyes nose mouth and then depositing or capturing a cough and depositing those on surfaces fish so wherever the droplets land or are put by our hands for example is where the virus could be picked up by the next host So that's different from something like measles which is truly airborne and can actually float in the air as an aerosol and that's why measles is can potentially if you don't get vaccinated can be highly highly transmissible so this is not measles it's not fully aris allies airborne it's probably most likely to infect people through being coughed on directly put have droplets land on you directly or you pick up the virus from a surface and then you rub your eyes or rub your nose and it gets into a mute. Hold your hamburger. You take a big buy in your hands of touched the Burger. So so it's it's basically any potential surface that you've touched with your hands or other body part that then you introduced to any of your own mucous membranes. Mormon when viruses deposit things on surfaces. We call those Foam Mites F. O. m. It es Fondly referring to my iphone as a phone night so you can imagine right the Tunceli. I'm handling the phone. I'm putting it down places other people might be picking it up my daughter or something so sa- clearly As a as a precaution that we can all take his to wash our hands before we use our hands to touch our mucous membranes. Like our eyes or nose or mouth or food that we're GONNA put in our mouth okay and cover your cough or sneeze because You don't WanNa be a spreader and remember. We could be walking around without symptoms and be spreading the virus and our phones are disgusting. Right. They're disgusting okay. Keyboards and microscopes in doorknobs and elevator buttons so avoiding touching any of those really common surfaces. Just a great thing just a side note. I love how she said. Common everyday. Items like keyboards and doorknobs. An elevator buttons and phones and Microscopes. This amazing lady a molecular epidemiologist. Or what okay. So that is good to that. Like it's not that your phone might be disgusting like your phone is dirtier than like has more living on it. The new toilets or something right something insanely I would not be okay. I think that is probably true. And how long it can can The virus that causes cove nineteen SARS. To how long can it live just hanging out on your phone hanging out on button? So I actually don't know and I don't know if I was looking in the published literature Fiat Information and I didn't see a study I've heard people in the press or maybe casually mentioned a different times like twenty four hours. Three six hour with flu with influenza. It can persist over for twenty four hours or more but two totally different virus and it depends on the temperature so actually flew does really well. It persists longer when it's cool and dry which is one of the reasons. Why influenzas does well in dry winters in the temperate zone when we're crowded together indoors and they're living in these cool dry environments we don't know enough about SARS covy to to really know but for sure I'm would not doubt that it could persist a goodly amount of time but we don't really know exactly how long that is. At least I don't okay so we're about to get to more common quandries. Were all facing and you know. I usually do your patriotic questions. But I had no idea I was doing this episode until about one minute before so I just played it by ear also for each episode. We donate to a charity of the largest choosing this week. It went directly to the California Academy of Sciences and the mission of the California Academy of Sciences to explore explain and sustain life. They have one point five million visitors every year. Forty six million scientific specimens and collections. They do scientific research public engagement. Environmental Literacy programs in Sustainability Education plus. It's just a really great fun. Beautiful Museum of Science California Academy of Sciences Awesome so a donation goes straight to them. Thanks to these sponsors. Oh hello from my helix mattress on which I slept fourteen hours the other day fourteen. I don't even know if that's legal but man it was nice. Y'All know I travel a lot. I don't sleep enough and so this year. I've been trying really hard to prioritize. Sleep PART OF THAT. I said yes helix sleep. I will be very excited to try your mattress. They were awarded the number one best overall mattress pick of two thousand nineteen by G. Q. 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Do you have a bunker full of canned food? What's going on? No no no no. I think just like anything we could potentially get whether it's seasonal flu or corona virus or rhinovirus. A common cold virus. It's I think plen- T to wash your hands and s- open waters just fine you don't need. Nfl based hand sanitizer anathema based hand. Sanitizer doesn't hurt either. I mean it's not a substitute for washing your hands with soap and water. Wash your hands with soap and water is better but hand sanitizers fine. But it's not necessary. If you touch something just go wash your hands as soon as you can before you touch your mucus membranes. And you'll be fine. We don't have to carry hand sanitizer in every pocket and every car. You can also make your own disinfectant for surfaces or. You can just use soap and water on surfaces. Oh so sopa water on surfaces or any cleaner that sixty percent ethanol or more you. Can you know by rubbing alcohol from? Oh I hope I didn't just okay but heads up don't use straight rubbing alcohol on your hands or you might cause a skin burn or drying or cracking out. Some folks are trying to make their own hand sanitizer. They're just going full. Diy pinterest mode using two-thirds rubbing alcohol and a third aloe Vera Gel to moisture is but experts are like Yo if you get the concentration wrong or you contaminated using non-sterile tools to make it. It's not going to be as effective as store-bought so don't bother can I? Douse my Mitts and whisky. You ask as long as I'm hold up drinking it hoping not to die over stuff. Have some water my friend. Also whiskey isn't high enough proof. Neither is vodka Tito's vodka responsibly. Discouraged hoarding in tweeted out per the CDC hand. Sanitizer needs to contain at least sixty percent. Alcohol Tito's handmade vodka is forty percent alcohol and therefore does not meet the current recommendation of the CDC. So I'm sorry to say you cannot. Fix Things by splash imposed on your party. I know it's disappointing. End You can also make surface cleaner out of bleach. I I have a lab here. I disinfect surfaces with seventy percent ethanol or ten percent bleach. But it turns out you could get away with three percent. Bleach a three percent bleach solution. Just make sure you leave things wet. You don't dry them off right away because at least needs time to break down some time. Yeah and same with ethanol white. So if you're buying wipes make sure that they're still wet when you're using them. Don't use them like till they dry out right and don't use it and then dry it off with a dirty towels good point. Let's take a moment to revisit. The Disinfect Balaji episode with Dr. Evan rempsberger who is a bleach chemist at Clorox in Northern California? He has dedicated his career to killing gross stuff. It can make sick now. How is bleached disinfecting things so some research? That came out only about a decade ago zeroed in on the house. In according to a study published in cell magazine the Active Ingredient and bleach causes proteins in bacteria and viruses to unfold in the same way that a fever would fight and infection. When you spray it first on the counter you can leave it there to kick some bacterial viral assets for like five to ten minutes depending on your counter. And what about the smell of bleach? I learned on the lab trip. That the more Baluchi smell the more. It's kind of busting up cells. Is that true? Yeah that's true. So it's like the bleach. Bleach smell is consumers. A lot of them love it. Because it's it's a good indication of coming into a clean. You know bathroom. I can tell you nothing that are than going into like at the ball game and going into the bathroom and if you smell bleach and there's like okay cokie. We can go in the restaurant. That's a really good side just knowing how how well it works disinfecting that smell your. It is the smell of Bleach. Fragmenting up the the things that comes content. That is a little bit of what you're smelling that that's a nice cue that it's done. It's it's good to know so the next time you think smells like bleach in here. Thank you know. Smells like a lot of destroyed pathogens in ripped apart viruses aromatherapy and these trying times and now back to biologist Dr Shannon Bennett. And what about symptoms? I know that some people can be symptomatic my fear 'cause I travel a lot like I was on a plane this morning. I'll be on one tomorrow right. I'm my parents are Have Armenia compromised? And I'm afraid I'm supposed to see him like two weeks and I'm like if I pick it up but I don't know I give it to them like we all know not all of us but a lot of us know that like those masks aren't doing anything like what do we do so I to have an older mother. That has asthma. And I certainly wouldn't ever want to give her this so it's like I said it's not measles where it's gonNA fly through the air. But but they're definitely droplets can travel about six feet so if developed symptoms. Clearly you would want to avoid contact with them. Close contact before you develop symptoms if you don't have symptoms. You're not coughing. So you're probably potentially depositing full mites around so just like we can use good hygiene to protect ourselves. You can also use good hygiene not to transmit so if you're washing your hands frequently not only are you not liable to give it to yourself but if you did touch your face and hands wash hands again. Wash your hands before you prepare food. Don't share cups glasses. Straws with your family members like we should all do that right. Now he would be good and don't cost cover your coughs or sneezes. Even if they're just starting with a tickle cut trying to cover. Is it better to have Kleenex with you? Or to have like a handkerchief. I have a young daughter fourteen and she when she was growing up. It was the Batman movies. Like pull your arm up and seasoned year elbow or cough into your elbow there. There is some interesting rumors going around about whether the virus can persistent on fabric surfaces. So for sure. We know that can persist on hard surfaces. But how does it persist on fabrics? So that I think is still up for question if it would persist longer on a handkerchief or on your sleeve So maybe the best course is to use a disposable Kleenex road out. Wash your hands okay. Okay rapid fire. Paper towels are hand-driers. So I'm a big Fan of paper towels got it. What about the Internet rumor? That SARS corona too is an escaped biowarfare pathogen from the Wuhan Institute of Technology. They have the same outfit that we have in terms of they have the Chinese version of the Centers for Disease Control and prevention that Chinese. Cdc and that the the rumor out there. And I don't want to repeat the rumor case it's propagated but you know. The rumor was that they might have been involved. Of course many labs especially government labs are going to keep You know pathogens the cell cultures and different things to study things so it's completely plausible that All of the labs around that support us in the developed vaccines drugs. Have some forms of these things to study? I don't put any stock into the rimmer at all and the genetic evidence supports that it's not an engineered virus. Ps If you hear the word recombination in regard to this or other viruses. Don't get scared of a term. You don't know it just means that a few viruses can mix up their DNA CO infecting the same host and exchanging genetic segments so recombination in SARS cova to may have been because there were multiple animal hosts not because someone in China is trying to start the apocalypse rumors spread by rush limbaugh in infowars. Alex Jones the letter of whom had a self-described form of psychosis and convince people that the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax. Jones stated recently. That SARS Kobe to is the work of Chinese communists and that it's manmade sentiments that managed to be not only racist but sexist to now Trevor Bedford is a Seattle based biologist at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and has done amazing work on the genomics of SARS covy too and he has a thread debunking these conspiracy theories. It's on twitter. It's definitely worth a read. A Lincoln on my website at award dot com slash gs slash virology. And also. While you're at it. Just follow him on twitter at T- RV V band and for the health of yourself and the planet stop following potato face hate mongers speaking of faces. What about masks so masks masks are not all equal? There are many kinds of masks out there. There are paper masks that are not not necessarily adequately filtering the air and then there are masked with these little built in filters and and the rest of the mask is more is less much less permeable and called and ninety five ninety five refers to the amount of air it filters the Mount of particulates it filters out of the air so and ninety five means it filters ninety five percent of the particles so in a healthcare setting where you are in a crowded space and droplets are flying they are definitely recommending and ninety five or higher and ninety nine be used by healthcare professionals by people that are enclosed spaces where they cannot escape a flying droplet because of this whole six foot rule and where they're concentrated within crowded with people for most of us going about our day-to-day. We're probably pick in the virus up mostly from Foam Mites. A mask is not gonNA protect you from full Mites and this is not measles where it's flying through the air you're gonNA know if you're in within six feet of somebody that sprang droplets so the mask won't help for four nights unless I guess some people could argue. If I'm wearing a mask I'm not touching my face but I bet you if you're wearing a mask touching your face even more is your adjusted the peace and not only that but people need to understand that all the masks that are available most of them are disposable that means to use them properly. You fit them tight you use them once and then you throw them out today. Datum selves could become fonts of full might justify collecting the phone nights that you're reading through the air on then you're touching them and so they're they're they're not a great idea unless you're in a healthcare setting right where you will be very close quarters with direct droplets and I've read that even people who use those in a healthcare setting have to test to make sure that it's fitted properly and it's easy to use wrong they. They're easy to use wrong. They're easy to use over and over again and They could give you this false sense of security going into a situation when if it hasn't been fitted properly in there are gaps. You're actually pulling in more virus than new if you didn't and then there's not enough for the people who need them for Endo's last spring we want is for there to be a run on masks and the people that are really expose not having access to them. Yeah just a side note the. Us Surgeon General tweeted an exasperated plea. That started with seriously people. Stop buying masks. They're not effective in preventing general public from catching corona virus but of health care providers. Can't get them to care for sick patients. It puts them and our communities at risk and quote. So what if you bought them when you thought you needed them and now you feel bad or embarrassed about it don't be Barest? Just contact a local healthcare provider or er. Let them know you have clean? Unused MASKS TO DONATE MED share dot. Org is also taking an redistributing them and I fly a lot. We all know this and I was onto planes this week for work. I saw a ton of people wearing these vented and ninety five numbers. It's kind of like a Gucci purse. Once you know what it is you see him everywhere also in researching this episode. Guess what all my targeted website. Ads are for hip even the New York Times sidebar. Ads are n ninety five masks enhance sanitizers. If you've been googling corona virus a lot so when it comes to widespread panic. There's really no escaping commerce. Now speaking of I was supposed to give a talk at south by southwest. Edu this week but it was canceled. What do you think about This particular disease being an excuse to stop going to parties. My daughter's like what are they gonNA close goal. What are they going to classical so I for one am not changing my social gathering? But I'm being mindful of social distancing. So the difference is that I am not necessarily shaking hands hugging kissing or sharing a drink with someone like I. Might you know doing a party. The Hub Can I take your so? Those things are definitely a good things to not do at this time but I think still at this point I think social gathering news is we don't have enough indication at the base of the iceberg is so huge that we should stop gathering socially what about say trips. Like I know I'm going to Costa Rica so far no cases in Costa Rica. But I'm going a couple of months but One patron listener. Whose friend of Mine Dr Teagan Wall Is She has had a part of a lung removed because of Valley Fever. And she's planning on going to Hawaii with her sixty six year old and she's like should I not go like a pre existing lung thing. She's like my being paranoid. Yeah what do you think people traveling? I think the first thing she should do is talk to her medical. Yeah Pressure Right. So among us and the role in las but yeah absolutely whenever you travel and you go transit through airports. You're passing many many where people from many many more places and you are potentially exposing yourself to fo- MITES and coughs And then again. If you're in an airplane it's not like measles can be flying around the cabin but if the person beside you behind your in front of you is coughing actively there's that so again. I think being mindful that if you do travel you need to be. Ultra careful about touching your eyes nose and mouth or food with unwashed hands and distancing yourself from contact with with other humans direct contact so I personally am still traveling. I have a wonderful trip Planned to do field research in the Maldives at the end of March march twenty seven. I'm really really hoping that I can go really what I'm saying about that is I'm looking to the CDC and following their travel advisories so if they have issued a travel advisory against a place and they have issued travel advisories to what they're classifying as level three countries. Yes don't go. I'm not going to go and you risk if you do go. Maybe not being able to get back. As readily many airlines are canceling some percentage of flights so so Looking to the. Who IN CDC guidelines for travel advisories based on destination is the what I am doing and then using safe personal precautions when I do travel to non level three locations okay I wonder to think that Olympics are going to be next well. I think that that is what everybody's talking about. Yeah so Actually I was just looking at the data in Japan and they still have not hit the top of their curve. Okay so China has an. It's heading down the other side. Japan has not quite okay so depending on how it all rolls. By the time the Summer Olympics occur it could be down the other side right and they could be starting to pull up. Pull up so we have many events planned at the academy. Were just keeping an eye on the data and not making any premature decisions and like I said with diseases. They come in a wave and the wave peaks and then it goes back down again. What causes that drop actually You know that's a very good question. Most people assume that all the people in a certain population that could have gotten it at a certain efficiency that the virus might exhibit. Got So we were kind of thinking about it. As like a herd immunity some somehow the population of at risk potentially expose people is is not that population isn't large enough to sustain ongoing virus transmission for whatever reason and there's lots of things that might determine that in China it was concentrated in Wuhan probably many people that could have been exposed. Were exposed and the viruses now. Running out of running room like many kids are not showing symptoms. Maybe they're not on the radar so people that are going to get. It would've showed that they got it is starting to run down. So what we don't know is what the United States is GonNa he. We don't know if if WE'RE GONNA have a bell shaped epidemic curve in a given place or whether it'll be across the whole country so for examples for sure in Seattle yes definitely a curve going up and coming back down but it could be that we had a country level stay with these very discrete events like that and we never as a country go through a curve where the virus never nationally runs out of susceptible essentially and quick aside in case. You're like what's going on a Seattle. Well the first. Us case of code nineteen appeared outside of Seattle when a thirty five year old man who had recently traveled to Wuhan China. Came back with it and as of this recording nearly one hundred folks have been diagnosed and eighteen have died in the Seattle area somehow spread to a nursing care facility in Kirkland Washington causing the deaths of thirteen residents and spreading to a suspected half of its one hundred eighty workers although the center is having trouble getting a hold of enough testing kits the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has stepped up and donated one hundred million dollars to global public health authorities to try and fight Kobe. Nineteen starting with trying to make testing kits available to Seattle area residents. So why you might ask if you are my parents who just asked me as I was. Researching are older folks more risk for this. And why haven't we seen covert nineteen kids so a few theories are that as we age our immune systems just are not as strong and our inflammatory response may be greater causing that cytokine storm? That can cause organ problems so obviously no one wants to get this and no one wants to give this to anyone. So what do you do if you feel a garbage? Are there even enough testing kits available right now? We're really not the CDC recommends in any case to call a healthcare provider immediately and they will assess your symptoms also have a working thermometer available because a low grade. Fever is one of those symptoms now for mild symptoms. Cd says stayed home and isolate. Don't spread it to your family and for worsening symptoms. Alert your doctors. So that if you do come in. They're prepared the right testing kits and their own. Precautionary measures don't just saunter in to urge care unannounced like mother-in-law doing drop by on a Sunday. Give them a heads up. I also a healthy. Immune system is important so take your vitamin C stay hydrated with not vodka. Get a lot of sleep. You have waited years to have a good excuse to stay in and watch Netflix and NAP. You're welcome also if you need a show a watch. Can I suggest one hundred humans which premieres on March Thirteenth? If you're bored tweet net flicks and tell them you love it. Also take care of your immune system. Do you think our immune systems will eventually get hip to it or do you think that eventually they'll have a vaccine in a couple of months or is it just like wash your hands. The Vaccines Aren't gonNA come fast enough. Well two one is that it does take time to develop a vaccine. There are vaccine candidates. That are being researched right now. And they look promising but to get that through drug testing and everything could take months to a year so stay tuned but the other question too is how effective a vaccine will be and with influenza. We know that that immunity does Wayne. It doesn't match anymore and it's not as effective Whereas with some things like measles vaccines awesome minute last decades so it really depends an all viruses are different Kind of antibodies. They elicit in the human body that could then be leveraged to boost people. Give people a vaccine as still completely unknown with this virus. I mean there's candidates butts. There's not there's not enough information so a lot of companies are urging workers to telecommute which I think is a great idea. Personally I will be doing that as much as possible. And perhaps so should you if your job situation lends itself to that which is a privilege in and of itself but so so many people simply cannot afford to take off work and can't telecommute because their job involves being on site to teach or to build something under served something or fix something and for them. It's good to be mindful to try to cut this thing off because some people can't take certain steps to lower their risk. Oh and if you're wondering if your dog can spread it to you or others the world health organizations as nat- but you should wash your hands after penning animals anyway said nothing about telling your animals. How beautiful they are from across the room. Which I've been doing okay. You know what? Let's try to lighten up. Little the movie contagion. Yes or no any any virus movies that you actually like. I actually Kinda like outbreak. It's a lie corner but I love. Dustin Hoffman is like I think those are all really Super Fun dying and are going to continue to die. Sign this monkey. So jared was being an angel and helping me as I was scrambling to put this episode together and this outbreak clip made him rip off his headphones. And tell me I needed to contact my favorite disaster allergist Dr Smith Montano from the disastrous episode immediately now. It was ten pm her time on a Sunday. I gently texted her and she was up and down to chat on the phone because as her twitter bio states. She's not just a disaster allergist. She's a cool disaster allergist so asked her what the Hell should we do? Should we panic? Okay Dr Montana. Thank you so much for talking to me. You're welcome in this. Covert nineteen fear and scare. And what do you suggest people know or do sure so? The first thing that I recommend is that quotes listen to the information being put out by their local public. How an emergency management officials in bell be the agencies that have the most up to date information for your specific area and so following. Their advice is your best bet. Where do people find their local emergency management officials? Good question so the best thing to do is to just go to all and search for name of Your City town or county with -mergency management and our public health and you should have An agency come up there. All names slightly different though you kind of have to search around for it but once you find their websites you should be able to find a place to sign up for email or text alerts or at least their social media So you can follow them on there. I did this for Los Angeles side. Note Ina pulled up the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health the California Department of Public Health the CDC the World Health Organization. So think locally. I see what's happening nearby. Okay and should we be taking this as the apocalypse is coming or is this just a new disease and so people are just being very precautious while I would definitely not say it is the apocalypse? Fortunately but You know this is something that needs to be taken very seriously so remember that China for the majority of people that are taking precautions. They're doing so not for yourself. But rather for the people around you who are at higher risk people who have You know certain. Chronic illnesses are are elderly and have those higher risks We WanNa make sure that. Were not doing anything to spread this around to them. So you're not a diva or high maintenance if you're being extra precautious you're just being kind of kind compassionate and empathetic to others. Yes absolutely our guys can start washing their hands. Do you think I would really hope so? That's been one thing that has been quite illuminating. How many guys on twitter like? Oh yeah a lot of guys just cruise right out of the bathroom washing their hands disgusting and then what about kind of the a little bit of the panic or the fear what should what should people do emotionally? Yeah so I think the most important thing is to just remember to be kind to each other. There's a lot of really confusing conflicting information flying around and this is very genuinely scary for a lot of people and so You know I think we want to be careful when we see people taking certain actions that tell us may seem slightly irrational or may seem like. They're making a decision out of panic. It's important to remember that. We don't necessarily know their individual situation. We don't understand you know who they're living with at home who may be high risk. What particular needs their family may have We Wanna be kind of careful about how. We're interpreting some behaviors that from the outside or with more information or more accurate. Information may seem irrational are actually relatively rational reactions for them. Let such a good point. Because you don't know if someone's immuno-compromised or if they're caring for and so don't judge people for being cautious exactly. How do you feel about people who are stockpiling canned food and water and Pierrot? Do you think there's a need to get ready for maybe mandatory quarantines or which we do so I think the general consensus coming out of official agencies is that There is a recommendation that folks have a supply of food at their homes. The kind of a general consensus seems to be two weeks worth that again is GonNa Kinda look different for different people situations. I think really that idea. That is if you are in a position where you need to stay home for multiple weeks and it's not as safe for you to leave. Your House that you are able to feed yourself that said you know emergency managers on a daily basis. Recommend that you have multiple days worth of food and water in your house for any disaster. That may occur That's pretty standard advice. If you didn't already have that that might be why you're heading out ticketed now right exactly. So what about big events being canceled or postponed. I know that in some countries weddings are being postponed or banned gatherings over a thousand people. I know south by southwest cancelled Good call do you think it really depends on where you are a situation where we don't necessarily have all of the data that we would dearly want to be able to make the most informed decisions happen a lot during disasters and so officials are needing to make decisions kind of based on information that they have heard. Zuma believe they're making those decisions based on information that They've been given by local public health officials and so the I've got approach. That's so smart and helpful. I don't know about you but I've had some stuff get cancelled that I've been like yes I could stay home. I'm actually going to a conference tomorrow in Hawaii and it has been and I. It's been very shocking. I thought for sure it would be. I hope you have some hand wipes yes I do. Well I hope you fly. Safes and updates from paradise. Well down all right. Doctor Thank you so much. Wash your hands work your tail okay. Dr Shannon Bennett had to jet so we wrapped it up and I know you gotta go to the next meeting. I'll ask you the last two questions. I always ask Worst thing about your job. Crappiest thing about it. I know that you I'm asking this of someone who has had malaria and dysentery in a leper colony during a war. But what's the worst thing about your job? It can be anything So so I'm actually playing a dual role right now. I'm I'm doing. I'm the Chief of science at the academy as well as an apologist virologists Epidemiologists and so I would say that the administrative part of my job like that an even as an apologist you have. These administrative duties like writing a rope. Hordes and writing grants that can that is. I do find yeah but doing actual research the field work and so at the administrative part of it is a little painful. What I like the least so that you can have dysentery. His job that the paperwork is worse. I get it I get it I mean when you can get dysentery from anything really consume. I got what's your favorite thing about what you do so that exactly the adventure of going out into the field. I love that part. I just love. Seeing new places is seeing new people and the feeling of discovery that I might you know. Catch catch a mosquito that contains a droplet of blood that it took from some obscure animal in nature. That might have the secret to a new virus that I could discover is so exciting. And we've discovered new viruses in. It's really incredible. And and then bringing that that secret information back into the lab and cracking open the genome in solving in doing the analysis in looking at the family tree of these viruses and how they relate to each other is my absolute favorite thing. Ever thank you so much for doing this So in essence just wash. Your hands calmed down a little bit right. Wash your hands Social distance stay home if you're sick but a lot of people were in this culture where we think Tough it out. Oh I won't affect anybody can go to work anyway but this is not the time to be tough right. Stay home if you're sick got we'll do. Thank YOU DR. Your for doing this so folks this is potentially very serious Nakimora but it can be potentially contained faster not with panic panic never saved anyone but preparedness conscientiousness compassion empathy and handwashing have saved lives and as someone who has loved ones who are immuno-compromised. I'm hoping people stay home when they can. We all just do our best to hunker down and let this thing pass over us with a curve. That doesn't look like a six flags. Attraction I myself will be laying low more than I usually do. And what did we learn asks? Smart people stupid questions and don't touch them or your face. Don't touch their face either. Now Dr Shannon Bennett is on twitter and Instagram at microbe explorer and we are at all ogies on both. I'm an award with one L. on both again. Also one hundred. Humans premiers on Netflix March thirteenth. We've been working on the show for a couple of years in Sammy obeyed the Johnson. My Co hosts in Comedians are great and wonderful and you will love them and I hope it gets you through some self imposed isolation for safety now links to all the good stuff we talked about. We'll be at alleyway dot com slash allergies slash virology. And I'M GONNA put that Lincoln. The show notes and Allergies. Merch is available at all. Ladies merged dot com thank you Shannon filters and Bonnie Dutch for managing that. They also have podcasts. Called you are that which is great. Aaron Talbert Admins theologies PODCAST facebook group. Thank you emily. White and all the volunteer allergies transcribers for keeping these episodes accessible transcripts are available link in the show notes where you can get transcripts in bleeped episodes for kids in the show notes for free. If you ever need to hire a transcriptionist email higher. Emily white at G. DOT COM. She is incredible Thank you to you. Assistant editor Jerry sleeper of Mine Jim Media and the podcast my good bad brain for helping put all these clips together. And of course. Huge thanks to editors Steven Ray Morris of the Dino podcast see Jurassic right and the kitty themed per cast for stitching it altogether like one big sloppy genome. Nick Thorburn wrote and performed the theme music. And if you stick around to the end of the show you know a secret. This week secret is that I have seen a lady walk out of the bathroom. Maybe twice in my life without washing her hands. I've witnesses honestly maybe twice and both times. It was like seeing a ghost. I couldn't believe my eyes as she's cruise right. Outta here not even any water on her paws and I went back to my table restaurant. I told everyone so. This entire nineteen situation has truly alerted me to how much weird sad machismo prevents boys from washing their hands. So Boys we love you. Don't let it kill you. We just respectfully ask you to please wash aretz as our friends. The Doctors Errands Welsh and almond. Updike from this podcast will kill you. Say Wash Your Hands. Filthy animals also. I want you to know that if you eat a lot of Goat Yogurt sometimes. Your pits smell like goats. Next Day it's so weird. Has that ever happened to you? Go Yogurt so good okay. Bye-bye Dermatology. Does zoology meteorology my role.

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The Invention of the Spoon, Part 1

Stuff To Blow Your Mind

54:43 min | 5 months ago

The Invention of the Spoon, Part 1

"T mobile believes that black history is american history and that together. we're unstoppable. That's why t mobile is proud to celebrate black history month by sponsoring a special episode of the daily zeitgeist podcast focusing on the unsung achievements of black americans. Check out that episode now released on february thirteenth to learn about figures and events from american history. Who deserve more recognition than currently given and visit t mobile dot com slash black history to learn more today or to join the conversation. Using hashtag unstoppable. Together i everyone. It's katie couric here to tell you that my podcast next question is back with a whole new season new gas new topics. Same curious me. My question next question next question. Endo here's my next question. I wanna talk about all the things like how we're going to get to a post covid world and you even imagine it how to heal from the trauma of this year and how to find an shared joy despite it all join me for season three of next question with katie couric new episodes. Every thursday. subscribe and listen on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows welcome to to blow your mind. Production of iheartradio. Hey welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is robert lamb. And i'm joe mccormick and today we're gonna be talking about an invention rob. I think this will be in tradition of our episode on chopsticks. We did a while back. Why is it that you so often suggest. Discussing the invention of a of a device with no moving parts that is used to eat. I don't know like part of it. May lead like in this case i was looking at another topic and i kind of hit a wall on it and i was like oh man. I'm not excited about this topic anymore and And then. I don't know you kind of like you think to yourself. What's something smaller. What something could possibly hurt me and you realize the spoon it's right there. It's in the drawer. I love spoons or you know in previous case chopsticks and i know they've got to be a fascinating history. It's one of some of these inventions. That are so ancient. We're not gonna pick out the individual that invented these things or anything like that But it is fascinating how they move through human civilizations also understand. The spoon was your stay puffed marshmallow. Man you were trying to think of something so innocent in good that it could never hurt anyone ryan and this is where we came to but i i was. I was surprised as i always am. Because i think we found some pretty interesting stuff about the invention of the spoon. Yeah like if you if you think you know the spoon you think spins you're boring well then Stay tuned because there's some there's some cool stuff And also you know when you really stop to think about it. And he's really start considerate. Yeah it it does get quite Quite fascinating as As b wilson pointed out in an atlantic article that will come back to What your spoon says about you. From twenty twelve therefore cultures they are chopstick cultures but every culture is a spoon culture. And of course it's not just not just one type spend a lot of different types of spins and i would like everyone out there to try and just imagine a day a day in your life without access to information spoon. Okay so you're up in the morning you're trying to get ready for work. You make your coffee and maybe add some cream dear coffee but what do you do. Well you stick your finger in and burn it as you stirred around yet and then after that. He got some oatmeal. But how are you going to get that oatmeal in your mouth while you're just reaching in with your fingertips and shelvin it in there and that's going to be crusty later on but you're in a hurry And then it goes on from there. Yeah oh minivan to the coffee like all right. You're you're you're going to get coffee grounds and put them into your coffee brewing device or or or or vessel How are you gonna measure that stuff out now. Some of this. We're getting into the stink tion of what is what is the scoop cup. What is a spoon. But essentially like spoons are are away that we measure stuff as well. We'll get into that so imagine yourself you know you're just gonna have to make that kind of like rough rutger hauer coffee in the morning where you're not really you're not really putting a lot of thought into it. Just throwing it in there then putting boiling water and then just let the cream fall where it will depraved. Now for my part. I often play a kind of game in the morning so i get up. I make my coffee. Sometimes they get to finish watching part of a of a movie for weird house or something and then everybody else gets up. We do we do breakfast. And at some point i i unload the dishwasher or a help them out the dishwasher and for a long time. Now i've playing this kind of game in my head Where i consider all the various utensils and plate types teens and the winning team is the one that managed to get the most members of their team into the dishwasher. The previous day so I've since told my family about this my son gets in on the on the fun to now you know. It might be a banner day for team fork or team butter knife for team ramic and sometimes team ramic and really really cleans it up those days we were. You have executed a good meson plus while making dinner. We use in abusing ram against for a lot of things. So it's like you know puddings and or snack mix you know you don't wanna eat right out of the bag you put it into the ramic so there are days when the when the rams contain does cause quite well but my favorite team the team that seems to win the most is of course team spoon and there are days where it just the three of us we manage to us not only all the all the big spoons and all the little spoons but also say both grapefruit spoons the weird sugar spoon that we don't actually use because we don't use a like a sugar caddy thing Or also the odds spoon. That's in the drawer. that doesn't match anything else. That's like leftover from from some other set or something So nobody's left on the bench for team spoon. Everybody's in the game and win this is like one of those big Tag team matches were suddenly. Everybody ends up in the ring. They're all pouring out yeah. The serving spoons wouldn't cooking spoons. You name it so yeah it's it's. It's really hard for me to imagine a day without using spoons. I i don't even know. I don't even want to tell people to take the no spoon challenge and tell us how it goes because it doesn't sound fun so really just think of all the things. We use a spoon. Four so mixing stirring measuring serving eating. And just think of all the foods they work well with. I feel like. I can depend on the spoon for just about everything with occasional user chopsticks as well but i rarely use a fork. Part of it is my. I don't know. I've gotten to where. I kind of think of the the fork is maybe just to pointy and maybe too violent But but i just really need one. If i'm going to depend on the spoon. The spoon can do pretty much everything the fort can and if it if it can't got the chopsticks to depend on. Yeah i mean. I guess it depends largely on what kinds of foods the most in your house but We're the same way we I'd say probably at least three quarters of our meals involve either a spoon chopsticks or both but probably only maybe one in four involves a fork. Yeah so In keeping with past invention episodes Let's start where we always start. What came before what came before the spin. We'll obviously eating with one's fingers right. Well yes sir. And for that. For further exploration of that we of course can look at some examples from our primate cousins. So first of all In addition to just sort of like sticking your hands and things and looking things off your fingers. There's of course using cupped hands especially for liquids for things like water. These of course allow even modern humans to form a cup or a bowl out of their own body. But there's a there's a there's a lot of stuff expense have been around so long That oftentimes they're mundane. But sometimes there's stuff there uses of it that are a little more insightful. For instance in jewish tradition. There's the the allegory of the long spoons. Yeah this is a story. That's good that gets told in sort of Sermons and religious teaching a lot. I think it's actually. I was looking around and i don't think anyone as far as i could tell has identified a certain origin of this story. There seemed to be a lot of cultural variations including a chinese version that that references chopsticks and then versions of the reference spoons. Actually i think i should tell the other version of at first because it makes more sense so So the version i read was that a you know a teacher comes up to his rabbi and says rabbi tell me the difference between heaven and hell and the rabbi says well at at in both heaven and hell. Everyone is seated at a at a great table for a feast and there is plenty of Delicious food out in front of them. You know steaming bowls of delicious stew But in both heaven and hell people cannot bend their arms at the elbow and yet while that means everyone in hell starves because they can't bring the food up to their lips in heaven is sated because they don't try to feed themselves they feed each other and then a variation on the story is that instead of being unable to bend your arms at the elbow The only utensils are very long utensils. That make it difficult. So you can't feed yourself but you could feed somebody else so a long spoon would be. I guess one. That's hard to use to get up to your own face okay. Well i see the point. They're making but also just the idea of being a star wars action figure In in the afterlife and not being able to move your career your arms Having only one point of articulation maybe to that does sound like torment. I mean. I think the point is trying to make as maybe not literally supposed to be about heaven. Hell but but about how You know the kind of ebeneezer scrooge concept that bryson who is selfish Creates a hell of their own making by their continued inability to to think of other people. Right right yeah but put enough miserable. People in one place in that place will become a place of misery. Yeah just by virtue of their Their personalities but i guess one thing that that does highlight is that Maybe a lotta times. We don't appreciate enough the minute physical features of a spoon. And how much difference that makes in. How usable it is This makes me think at least about how hard it is to eat with a spoon that is just slightly too big. You know like that's another thing. We don't often think about it so a spoon. Of course when used as an eating utensil as a means of conveyance gets food from the player the bowl into your mouth but it's not just any means of conveyance. it's also in effect a measuring device. It measures out an appropriately sized bite of food or you know quantity of food to fit in your mouth at one time and so a spoon to smaller spoon. That's too big is actually very weird and frustrating to eat with. Yeah it's we'll we'll we'll keep coming back this but when you think about a given spoon design the spoon is its design is going to be Influenced by what sorts of foods it is it was designed to deal with but then also its design is going to have an impact on how you eat and like in in terms of like how much you're attempting to put your mouth at one time But also how you hold the spoon and therefore how you carry yourself like socially in mannerly at the dinner table or or wherever you happen to be eating. So it's you know it's it's this thing that That has a has a big impact on the way we behave in the way we we consume even if we just think of it as this often disposable item that comes with the meal you know looking at this topic made me wonder. Are there any studies looking at the psychological effects of eating directly with the hands versus using utensils I'm sure somebody must have looked at that. I found at least one study. I probably wouldn't hang too much on this one result but but it it did seem interesting so this was a paper published in the journal of retailing. So not like a psychology journal but like business journal by adriana via modular of called self control in touch windows direct versus indirect touch increase head-on evaluations and consumption of food and the short version of what the study found. Is that among people who apply self control during food consumption. So i think this is especially people who are being careful people who are watching what they eat. I don't know if the same would apply to people who are just you know just kind of shoveling it in there but among people who show high self control win eating food touching food directly with the hands enhances the sensory experience and increases evaluations of food. so people who who eat with their fingers directly versus eating the same food with a spoon report finding that food more pleasurable to eat and the eat more of it. Well that's interesting. It almost makes me wonder if there could become a kind of small role for the spoon and other utensils in the evolution of food and cuisine and culture in Tempering the appetite like the sort of making hold back a bit and how much you eat in one sitting That is yeah. I hadn't really thought about that but then like you said this is just one study and of course it raises the raises the point That we have various food. Cultures around the world and some of them are more inherently based on eating with hands versus eating with utensils. And like you know this kind of broad statement. How does that apply to like this cuisine. This food culture versus this one like it could be where it's like. Oh i just. I've never stopped to touch chilly before. But now i'm eating chilly with my hands. Yes i suddenly phil. Far more hispanic. I don't know well to whatever extent this is generally applicable if it is I think it would. You'd have to confine. At least this result to foods that could be eaten either way right because a lot of foods you you basically can't eat them except with a spoon. Guess maybe slurping from a bowl you know soups and porridges and stuff. Which are we should remember. A huge portion of all the foods that humans veton throughout history of a lot of foods are liquid based. Yeah all right well. Let's let's back up just a little bit and In consider primates again so we were talking about hands coming together and forming natural cups. Natural spoons again. We can we can kind of the terminology. Kinda breaks down when you're dealing with the Like the pre spoon approaches to the to the same of functions. But i was reading about this in article. This was her nat. Geo from liz langley called meet the beatles that harvest fog in the desert and the author mentions a few different examples of of curious things that animals due to to to get their food or their liquids and they mentioned that that Southeast asian gibbons drink water through cupped hands sometimes while hanging inverted. Now of course the the spoon that we're using spoon you probably use today. It is of course. An artifact is a you know a thing that we have made out of other objects or other materials but the the step right before creating an artifact in the words of anthropologist window oswald is a nature fact that's a naturally occurring objects used intentionally but without modification for some purpose so Jane goodall actually observed chimpanzees using blades of grass. As a kind of spoon to consume time in the nineteen sixties. And i ran a care. I'll say two thousand fifteen paper published in the royal society open science found that chimps use leaves as a kind of spoon or cup to drink alcohol seeping from palm trees leafy shot glass. Yeah exactly now. Likewise before humans crafted the first spoons or something. The proto spoons. They likely used found pieces of wood and especially shells as pointed out by the california academy of sciences which has a page on spoons. Both the greek and latin words for spoon are derived from coca a spiral shaped snail. Shell this may point to the origins of the spoon in europe. At least taking taking a shell found shell and using that as a spoon and of course we see this reflected sometimes in mar more elegant spoon designs where the spoon itself. The cup of the spoon is made. The bowl of the spoon is made to look like a shell. Oh yeah and. I've used spoon like that before i think it. Some family members house at some point Like a ladle that was shaped like. Yeah like a shell that had the ridges and it was annoying to use u. Utensil nerds out there. We'll have to let us know. Because i know that the collectors really get into the exact terminology for not only the different types of spoons but also the styles etc. But i've seen before. I feel like it was used as a as a sugar spoon or something but then the you know another question arises here. Is shell really a spoon. Are we even if you take the shell and you attach it to a stick you know are are we dealing with things or functions This is a question. Raised by polish linguist Anivers- beca of the australian national university in the idea of a spoon semantics prehistory and cultural logic in two thousand fourteen And i have to say if you want if you want a deep but approachable paper on what. It means to call something a spoon. Then this is a really good article like you'll you'll If it's sounds laughable. I recommend looking it up. You can find it online it. it's enjoyable. We're not gonna get into all the points that they raise but we'll get into some of it does it. Does it shred that matrix seen. Oh what was the. What was the spoon matrix. Seen as it's been a while. I haven't gotten around to my regard. I will little boy. Within the matrix telecom medically bending a spoon and then kiana tries to do it and he fails in the little boy tells him the problem is that he's trying to bend the spoon instead of realizing that in fact there is no spoon there is no spin. Of course now. I remember I i don't. I don't think they specifically mentioned that. But i think the nas themes of the matrix coming through in the idea that The true enlightenment in power comes from realizing that material reality is an illusion. Gotcha all right. Well I want to read just a bet from various bekker's Article here quote. When the focus is on things rather than concepts. It is indeed impossible to draw a line between spoons and sort of spoons. There are many shades of grey between a puritan the type of spoon that will discuss Later on in the episode and a shell or between a carved spoon and a chip of wood. There is no such shading however between the concept spoon and concept shell or chip of wood. The invention of the spoon like the invention of the wheel is a conceptual breakthrough without a clear distinction between things which are made for purpose according to a certain blueprint and things which are merely used for a purpose with no crystallized creative idea behind them. We can hardly make any firm generalizations about cultural history pre history and the history of cooking and eating and then they go on to say quote. I submit that cultural kinds are based on complex. Ideas born in individual human minds in the context of particular needs ideas that have caught on in certain communities and have become embedded in social practices and that without identifying these ideas. We cannot fully understand the practices based on them and from here they Point to two very important consideration in the birth or invention of the spoon that it arises in large part due to the importance of soft watery cereal based foods such as rules and porridges in given cultures and so different sorts of spoons that we find in different cultures are tied to specific food cultures. Will yeah if you want to jump right into it. I could discuss some some specific evidence on that front that why not there are no rules. We just digger spins and wherever why is the new dove mandy odorant different because it has forty eight hour protection and a plant based moisturizer. The cares for your skin. The new dove men eucalyptus and birch keeps you feeling fresh and confident throughout the day. This formula is designed for men to give you odor protection that works new dove men plant based care by now at walmart and target. This episode is brought to you by ibm safe or sporty modern or reliable. We won't both we wanna hybrid. Well so do banks and that's why they're going hybrid with ibm hybrid. Cloud approach helps them personalized experiences with watson. Ai while helping keep data secure it's more reward. Less risk from banking to manufacturing businesses are going with a smarter hybrid cloud using the tools platform and expertise of ibm. The world is going hybrid with ibm go hybrid at ibm dot com slash hybrid cloud. All right. well. I guess that means we're gonna jump to the part of the episode where we tried to find the oldest spoon known of and one thing that i think is worth noting. Is that if you're generous with what you would call a knife in the context of culinary use. I think it's extremely clear that the knife predates the spoon. The fork doesn't but the knife does it make sense right because we've talked about the ways that the hand can do things that has been can do and But there are things that a knife can do that. The hand cannot do that. The teeth cannot do right So the further you go back. The evidence gets more ambiguous. But there's no question at all that by a few hundred thousand years ago like two hundred thousand years ago. Our ancestors using sharpened pieces of stone of flint and other stones that are suitable for napping to create blades and actually the evidence I was checking recently. It goes back even farther than that based on recent discoveries in in africa I think there is evidence of stone blades. Going back at least a half a million years or so from kenya and there might be stuff even earlier now but probably a major one of the uses for early stone knives was for the processing of animal carcasses. So if you have been hunting or you've come across a dead animal and you're trying strip the meat from the bones or cut the meat into usable pieces of usable size. A sharpened piece of stone will help you do that so again. If you're generous with what counts as a knife knives obviously go way way. Back deep deep human and even Even pre homo sapiens But with spoon specifically a lot of the stuff on the internet. If you're looking around for the oldest spoons it ends up talking about stuff from ancient egypt or wherever which is very interesting and we will talk about but you know that there must be stuff Earlier than that at least as far back as the neolithic so i went searching in the scientific literature. I was trying to find An authoritative attempt at cataloging the oldest spoons in the archaeological record. And i did come across something. There does appear to be some ambiguity in this one too because there are things you can find from from the stone age and you can argue. Is this spoon or not. But at some point a certainly a little bit before the neolithic and then definitely during the neolithic we get clear evidence of spoons So i found one recent paper that gives a good rundown of the existing evidence. This is a paper by sofia. Stefan at all called bone spoons for prehistoric babies detection of human teeth marks on the neolithic artifacts from the site grabbed start chaivo. That is impressive. You know. I didn't think about that but like feeding a baby. Its first foods. Those foods have to be one way or another they. They have to be mashed up. They have to be soft foods and babies You know they can. They can spit out and they can bite with their little gum. Mouth so Yeah i could see In eventually teeth Yeah anyway i'm just. I'm astounded here. I didn't think about this at all this. This paper was really interesting to me so So we're by attached a picture of some of these spoons for you to look at for reference. They aren't spoons. Like we would imagine today that have a rounded cup area there there they look more kind of like tiny scoop. Paddles made of both on. Yeah yeah now is Stefanovic at all discuss here the earliest evidence of consistent cultural spoon use pops up in the neolithic period. Now remember the neolithic period is the last part of the stone age. This is still the the age in human development or cultures are dominated by stone tools. But this is coinciding with or after the invention of agriculture so It's usually imagined to begin roughly twelve thousand years ago. I think there's there's a good bit of looseness in How those years apply especially depending on what particular region you're talking about but roughly twelve thousand years ago or so. We go into the neolithic era and and significantly this coincides with the invention of agriculture and the widespread use of spoons before the neolithic. There is some evidence of spoons but in the words of the authors here. these pre. Neolithic spoons are quite rare and isolated occurrences and they give a few examples. One is something cited by archaeologist named john andrews that was published in bulletin of the institute of archaeology in nineteen seventy two. I could not find the full text on this but the citation is For a single instance of an artifact from the paleolithic so the old stone age going way back that andress interpreted as a spoon made out of bone for more solid evidence. The authors here site quote the earliest secure find. A pre. neolithic spoon was documented at a geometric kabar site of l. hamam which Which was context dated to about sixteen and a half thousand years ago or say sixteen thousand five hundred years ago. Roughly now I followed this up. I went to the study. They were talking about and this is a study by lisa. A mar called a unique human fox berryhill from a pre netwo- fiene cemetery in the levant jordan and this was published in p. l. o. s. one in two thousand eleven and this also was really interesting. So this is. This is one of the earliest examples known of a spoon in the archaeological record and it's being attributed to what is being called here. The pre neetu fee and culture now If you've been listening to the show for a while and the idea of the two fee and culture rings a bell. This is the modern name for a late paleolithic culture that lived in the levant. So think modern day syria lebanon israel and jordan and the nato phen- culture is really interesting from a historical technological perspective. Because they sort of show signs of practices that are associated with agriculture but before the apparent invention of agriculture. So a lot of things you might think of as associated with agriculture like a sedentary existence as you know remaining in one place for prolonged periods of time Things like cemeteries and architecture and certain types of culinary innovations all these things we think of as associate as as sort of stemming from the farming existence but then the new to fiennes showed some evidence of these practices before they had settled farming. So you might think of the two has sort of classic hunter-gatherers who had started making a bridge to the kinds of things we see in the sedentary agricultural lifestyle popping up in millennia later without technically planting crops yet or at least not doing that much Okay yeah so yeah. It makes sense that this'll be the type of people where you might find something like the spin. Which is we'll continue to discuss here is seemingly inherently linked with the ultimately it's widespread use with the with the agricultural revolution right So here this is another thing. You might recall the reason. It's come up on the show before we talked about the nativity and culture in the context of our invention episode on bread and toast. Yes so there. Was this study that we talked about. By iran's at all by published in proceedings of the national academy of sciences in two thousand eighteen and this was the bread before farming study which looked at evidence from netafim and cooking sites in jordan from about fourteen thousand years ago so again before there was really any signs of organized agriculture And they found what looked. Like the charred remains of breadcrumbs in the cooking sites. In other words it looks like these people were making bread before they were planting cereal crops. So this would have been harvesting grain from wild grasses and then dean doing the culinary innovation work of putting together these grains with other ingredients to kind of bread I think this would this would have been. I'm corn wheat. Which is a a wild strain of wheat grass and then something called The roots of club rush tubers and then also there were some other things mixed in the spices like mustard and trace amounts of barley and. It looks like what happened. Is they would make this dough out of these grains and then cook it on the the heated stonewalls lining their fire pits which is actually kind of similar to the way that indian non bread is made in the walls of ten durie oven today. And yeah so anyway. The the the context on yes so now to fiennes apparently being grain innovators people who were coming up with new and potentially revolutionary ways to cook with the the grains of wild grasses and of course that would that would mean potentially not only bread but breads sibling Porridges right exactly right So coming back to this two thousand eleven. Study by maar at all remember. This is the one from the The one called a unique human fox burial from pre nativity and cemetery in the levant. And so i just wanna read from the authors Abstract here so we can see what's going on. They write quote. New human burials from northern jordan provide important insights into the appearance of cemeteries and the nature of human animal relationships within mortuary contexts during the epi paleolithic period. So this is roughly twenty three thousand years ago to about eleven thousand six hundred years ago. Picking up with them in levant reinforcing a socio ideological relationship that goes beyond predator prey. Previous work suggests that archaeological features indicative of social complexity occur suddenly during the latest epi paleolithic phase. The neetu fiene again that sir. Roughly fourteen thousand five hundred years ago to about eleven thousand six hundred years ago these features include semitism so a settled existence cemeteries architecture food production including animal domestication and burials with elaborate mortuary treatments. So i think this is what we were talking about just a little while ago. The idea of Settled existence and showing cultural practices that we associate with. With agricultural societies. They write our findings from the pre neetu fiene middle epi paleolithic cemetery of unocal hamam demonstrate that joint human animal mortuary practices appear earlier. In the epi paleolithic. We described the earliest human fox burial in the near east where the remains of dogs have been found associated with human. Burials at a number of a to insights. This is the first time that a fox has been documented in association with human in terms predating than a toof- ian and with a particular suite of grave goods analysis of the human animal bones in their associated artifacts provides critical data on the nature and timing of these newly developing relationships between people and animals prior to the appearance of domesticated dogs. In the not too fiene. Yes so in these graves. The do find an example of humans buried alongside of fox and coming to the spoon in particular. There is one of these graves. It's grave eight which they say they find a spoon slash spatula that consists of quote a tibial shaft. Fragment from a red deer service. A- laugh us with one end broken a at an oblique angle and tapering to a rough point while the other end has been smoothed to form a shallow depression. So it appears. This is one of the earliest clear indications of a spoon in the archaeological record from this premature burial site. And this is so interesting I don't know sparks are going off in my brain. You might not imagine to find these things together. Some of the earliest clear evidence of a spoon and some of the earliest known. Burials of human with a fox buddy. Yeah like you're tempted to try and connect the two like it'd be maybe spoons or helpful for feeding boxes. I mean in the care of a pet. We do find ourselves using spoons. Oh i mean i gotta you gotta get the the food out of a can one way or another you got. I mean. we've got medicines. I wasn't trying to be that and the connection but it does. Yeah yeah. I mean i see what you're saying there is it suggests that there's some kind of a ferment. Underlying both perhaps yeah. Yeah but coming back to that. I study Stefanovic at all summarized other early evidence for spoons in the archaeological record Stefanovic bone spoons. Were also present in the not in Fourteen point five to eleven point. Five thousand years ago and in mesolithic europe in material culture of the circum baltic hunter-gatherers however the ubiquity in quantity of spoons in bone tool assemblages significantly increases in the neolithic period. Especially in the early neolithic of anatolia and the balkans and they are primarily a neolithic phenomenon. So once we hit the neolithic era There's agriculture spreading all around. Were in this final stage of the stone age tool set Spoon start showing up all over. The place in this really does appear to be connected to the advent of agriculture. Humans are living a more settled existence practicing both the farming of cereal crops and animal agriculture which importantly provides milk and Spoons are showing up all over the place. So what does this mean and to me gets into the even more fascinating part of the stefanovic because what it's actually looking at here is. The is the invention of the earliest spoons in the context of broader shifts in food technology agriculture and especially child care So as reading a good write up of the study by archaeologists and science writer christina. Kill grove on her forbes blog You can read that blog post if you if you want to know more but just to hit some of the points from it. The site that they're looking at here in in the study is grod star chaivo which is on the bank of the danube in serbia and these artifacts were discovered sometime in the nineteen thirty s in the nineteen thirties. There's roughly fifty small bone tools. That were found here and they were made out of cow bone were dated back to roughly eight thousand years ago or so. Which would have been during. The neolithic and previous archaeologists had suggested. Well maybe these little bone tools were used for scraping flower from grinding stones. Or maybe for maybe making some kind of markings on on ceramic pottery or ceramics in general. Or maybe they were somehow used in of kind of cosmetic use like applying applying pigments to the body your face or to clothing but the authors of this twenty nineteen. Study by stefanovic at all argue. Something different they say no. These tools are spoons. And that quote they were used for feeding babies and that marks on them can be connected to the usual mouthing behavior meaning biting nibbling gnawing and pulling of children who may up to four years of age mouth objects up to fifty times during one hour and they tested this by looking by doing bite mark analysis. They were comparing marks. Left on these bone tools to marks left by dental models based on The teeth of babies and children today and what they say is they found a match. The marks on these bone tools really made it look very clear that babies and young children were chewing on them. And that these probably were spoons used for feeding babies. And so here. I want to read a section from kill rose right up quote. The discovery of feeding spoons is highly significant archaeologically. In the neolithic time period there came a series of dramatic transformations for human culture. A more sedentary way of life. Thanks to the first plant and animal. Domestication this so-called neolithic revolution also affected the population structure reduced mobility a shift towards high calorie cereal foods and a reduction in the length of time that mothers breastfed their babies led to an incredibly rapid population growth and She notes that even though the demographic growth of humans during the neolithic period should be understood in a major way in terms of what mothers and babies were doing at the time this area of prehistory as often been under studied and i think that reflects a general trend in in the study of history and and deep prehistory is that there's sometimes not enough attention paid to domestic life in the raising of children yeah yeah. More focused on what the hunters were doing and so forth and so Stefan itching colleagues in this paper argued that quote. The increased number of babies in the neolithic demanded new daily life routines not only for prehistoric parents. But for the whole community. So there's this idea that maybe child rearing here became less of something that was just going on directly between The the mother and her own infant but became more of a community activity where other people could pitch in with things like feeding the babies and And so other there are some other things we can learn from physical features of the spoons. Apart from the bite. Marks one is that these bone spoons took a lot of work to produce Apparently experimentally maybe around twenty five hours of labor that it's hard to know again with these experimental studies like how exactly that would translate to original labor time in the stone age. It's clear they would have taken time to create. This was not just like something that was basically a nature fact. It took work so different from a modern plastic spoon. Where oftentimes you get it for. Free with the meal that you You purchased and then you might throw it away without even use it. Yeah yeah yeah. Every time that happens yeah. I don't recommend it. I'm not saying that's the way to live your life. That's where we are as a the disposable culture but anyway another thing about these. These bone spoons is that they. They represent evidence of infants being weaned on new types of food. This was new. This food was new technology. I know it's weird to think about it that way but i i think it really was. Like they were being weaned new types of food The implications are animal milk and ground cereal grains In the depressions in these spoons are shallow indicating that it was likely porridge that the the children are being fed. Here when they were making these teeth marks on the spoons and this also represents again quoting from kilgore here new kinds of organization of baby care given the new easy to prepare. Types of gruel probably allowed other persons to be involved in baby weaning so anyway this makes me think about spoons in a whole new light as like a crucial piece of technology in the development of human culture especially as this relates to What childcare consisted of and who could do it. Yeah because like you said. Suddenly they're more babies and you have this more of a like a sedentary locate localized lifestyle and yeah other people can pitch in. And and here's the tool that makes it possible. Here's the here's the culinary invention that helps make it possible in the form of the porridge which which is very much a creation. You don't find naturally occurring porridge in the wild. Yeah so this paper. I will say really blew my mind. I will not think about spoons the same way after this one doing taxes will. There are a lot of people out there who would love to do them for you. But we're not talking about tax specialists here. 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Any college can make you look at on paper. at penn. college students are more into looking good in the studio with looking good on the job site looking good in the. Or with making something. That already looks good. Look even better when you become a penn college tomorrow maker. You'll look good to everyone to learn more about their one hundred. Plus industry backed applied technology programs at p. c. t. dot edu because the past might be written on paper but the future is made by hand. All right. well should we get into some other examples of Cultural spoons and early spins sure. All right well. I was You know as a as a as a fierce becca brings this up There there's an author. James gibbs who discussed the egyptian spoon which you alluded to earlier earlier. The egyptians produce small round bronze spoons around one thousand and these were really neat because they had they had sharp points at the end of the stem so on one end of the of the spoon. The spoon the little bowl of the spoon and the other hand. There's a skewer of sorts. You you might also call it the one time fork the half. Yeah yeah exactly. And but the thing is it's kind of a mystery what this was actually used for so it's thought that you you either You know flipped your spoon around and then use the spear to like grab bits of meat off your plate again using it just like a a one prong fork or and this is nate. It was used to extract snails So for digging around in there. Yeah so i i. I'm not a big snail Consumer never was. But i was looking around. I was like okay. you know. S cargo is a thing. It's part french cuisine. Looking around at utensils for that and there are specialized utensils for snail eating s cargo though it seems to generally revolve around tongs and narrow two pronged forks however looked a little bit more. My amazon search results are totally. Jack now is they're just going to try and sell me a weird or an atypical eating utensils now. But i do see modern seafood fork spoon. Combos they remind me a lot of the egyptian description. You know like their narrow with like a little spoon on one end and a thing. That's more like a a little shift on the other. That's used for digging around in a life. Things like craps picking crap which is interesting because that of course is something that is often done with fingers. fingers work really well for picking crab. If you don't mind your fingers being stabbed by tiny shell constantly. Yeah and just getting all nasty. Yeah that's one of the things. I always feel like I enjoy eating crab. But whenever i do i feel very self conscious because i feel like i look disgusting if my fingertips are all covered in that juice. And it's just all over the place. Yeah it's one of those things. That i i i enjoy for a little bit. And then i increasingly over it. Because but it does make me feel like a total hunter-gatherer like just like like just digging through the raw animal. It's kind of eating. That for me does not facilitate conversation at the table. You know it's like you don't imagine like sitting around cracking on a crab stimulating. Conversation is just what's going on is between you and the crab well and sometimes there's there's communication about the crabs you talking about the search for the meat and if you have younger members at the table it's about than the meat so i don't know but anyway as far as it spins go. I've also read that it. That spoons don't seem to have been really any use in pre-dynastic egypt so spoons came with the rise of the pharaohs so food would largely been consumed prior to this by handed the table which is still again a feature various culinary traditions But But you do see the rise of the pharaohs the rise of the spoon And you see some very ornate spoons. Emerging as well well something that i think emerges very early in human cooking and culinary traditions and is still a major feature of a lot of food today is the Is the spoon that is edible where you know. A lot of cultures focused very much on like scoop. -able breads that function as a kind of spoon where you'll have like a stew type food and then you'll have a type of flat bread or something that used to scoop up or stop up the The stew and then shoveled into the mouth and then you eat it as well. Which is i. Don't know that that's very appealing in many ways. And even that might be the cultural precursor foods you might not think of is very connected to culinary history like a nachos with nacho cheese sauce you know or yet dip it in the us an edible spoon right chip is i mean in a way. It's kind of getting to the idea of right. We have these grains. what can we make. We can make porridge. And we can make brad and then we can use the bread to eat the porridge genius. basic motif. You've seen a lot of different cuisines. And and i love it. I mean i love. I love ethiopian cuisine Use the the special bread and then of course. There's a lot of a lot of this in in various indian cuisines as well But yeah i think like you can find it pretty much everywhere like every culture that has bread or bread like product is going to have some sort of sopping action going on now views beca spins a fair amount of time talking about chinese spoons in particular the tonci. So this is. This is a soup spoon. And you've seen one of these before you've ever had had chinese food at a chinese restaurant or even other asian cuisines. It is a short short thick handle and a deep flat bowl. And they're really great for soups. They they hold more than a traditional western soup spoon. And at least in my experience i feel like it can be more stable and it can be more suitable for cooling for blowing on the soup. Maybe that's just all in my mind but but that's been my experience. No yeah. I know what you're talking about in verse. Becca article that she goes a lot into like the chinese spoon versus western spoon. And they all comparable. Are they really different. Things and i just referred to you that article for more of that but it's important they point out that the tang essentially means soup in this context but in the chinese usage its water plus lots of different things and it's a different apparently from a thick soup or a soup. That doesn't have anything like you know like a pure broth type of soup Each of which have their own words in mandarin its origins however and it's exact Designed seem linked to north chinese millet. Used in kanji with a lot like western porridge and gruel. We talked about this a good bit in our chopsticks episode because the more likely the earlier reliance on on millet. There's no use for chopsticks. Like what are you gonna do. Eat porridge with with six. No it doesn't make any sense. It's only as you move away from that and you get more into rice. They you see the rise of the chopstick. Yeah and if you recall from From our episode about chopsticks the earliest evidence is that chopsticks were originally used as a cooking. Utensil than as an eating utensil. Yeah and i have to say after we did that article i bought myself some cooking chopsticks And i i cannot go back to the old way like they're so useful when When i when. I'm frying things. They need to turn little bits of Say like Like tofu cubes or something of that nature when they need to turn those over in the pan and of course do so without being burned. I've just become come to really rely on those. I also really like them. For for situations where i dropped something Down into the the top of the stove. And i want to get it out before it is burnt up. I can reach down there real quick and grabbed them with my cooking chopsticks. Oh nice i mean yeah. I think having that kind of precision is something you'll see among a lot of cooks who were operating at a very high level like in in fancy restaurant. Kitchens a lot of times. You will see more use of tongs and and even tweezers. Oh yeah tweezers preparation. Yeah than you would in the average home kitchen. I think now. Back to to porridge. Though i we. We've we've already discussed the basics here. But i think it is kind of neat to think about porridge as the patient. Zero for all semi liquid foods. You know like cultures. Nobody really abandons porridge congee. I mean these are things that even the world. The word gruel has certain connotations but these are all things that if if prepared right can be can be excellent and if nothing else that can be a comfort food so You know they never really go away. But then we develop all these other things that are before age. Like right Things for which the spoon makes all the sense in the world. And then if you're taking then again if you're mixing things measuring things again it becomes increasingly important to have the spoon at hand all right. Well i think maybe we need to call it there for part one but there's so much more interesting spoon stuff to talk about. We've given ourselves the spoon challenge. We we dared ourselves to to talk about spoons for two whole parts of the show and and by god. We're going to do it. S right and we already have some stuff on the notes didn't get too but now we're gonna see what else is out there and i don't think we're going to be disappointed so tune in next time as we continue our look at the spoon a fantastic bit of culinary technology. That has never gone away. We'll never go away so tune in on thursday in the meantime if you'd like to check out other episodes of stuff to blow your mind and even invention You can head on over to the stuff to blow your mind podcast feed. That's where you'll find all this stuff on mondays. We do listener mail tuesdays and thursdays core episodes wednesdays when we tend to publish the artifact and then on fridays. We have weird al cinema for you with a vault on the weekends. Also invention has its own podcast feed. Were no longer updating that feed but if you want to find all of the invention episode the older ones in one spot you can find it there. Just go to wherever you get your podcast and look for invention But anyway wherever you get any of these podcasts rate reviewing subscribe. That's a great way to help us out. Each thanks as always to are excellent audio producer. Seth nicholas johnson. If you would like to get in touch with us with feedback on the episode or any other to suggest a topic for the future just to say hello you can email us at contact stuff to blow your mind dot com stuff to blow your mind. It's production of iheartradio for more podcasts. My heart radio with the iheartradio app apple podcasts. 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ramic katie couric ibm robert lamb joe mccormick Stefanovic ebeneezer neetu fiene journal of retailing liz langley bekker rutger hauer Endo jordan fiennes berryhill fiene cemetery bryson california academy of sciences
TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES w/ Brian Fisher and Drew Miller

Bad Science

46:32 min | 1 year ago

TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES w/ Brian Fisher and Drew Miller

"Are you looking for your next? Listen Weird thing to say right looking for your next listen. Are you listening for your next thing? Listen to I guess that makes less sense anyways tune into surprisingly brilliant new podcast from iheartradio and seeker. For centuries. Science has given US breakthroughs. That have changed how we view our planet or universe or even our own bodies but achieving these breakers didn't come easy. This podcast will tell you the stories of the Bizarre Journeys Wild Experiments and strange ideas that leads the discovery of important medicine. The invention of life saving technology and evidence about the beginnings of life as we know it find surprisingly brilliant on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay everybody I'm so excited because today we're talking about teenage mutant Ninja Turtles. One of my all time favorites. And I've got a huge guests for this intro. It's master splinter Cowabunga to you Ethan. Cowabunga her no. I'm getting low. So what was it like making this movie? I would like my own broadcast. Okay I mean maybe we can talk about that after I would like it to be called the wise and spiritual teachings of Masters Splendor on tape these. Insurers are usually about a minute. I don't know if we're GONNA have after one or you're just going to jump right into it. Okay Meditation. Close Your eyes. You are in a sewer with me. A big rat by whiskers are touching your face. We are sitting very close. It reeks stone year. It reeks of arches by the turtles to regular be bullish. We we gotta get into the episode but but thanks for joining splinter. Okay I get it. You don't like my podcast. What if I change it? What if it's a food podcast? A food podcast. What does that mean like splendors dinners? I could review. How GARBAGE TASTES? Yeah maybe I'll talk to seeker. Let's just get into the episode. He then what's your address. I'd like to come show. You did the movie right. We have to fight hi. Everybody went to bed science. I'm your host Ethan Edinburgh. And today we are talking about something that. I was absolutely obsessed with when I was little I would demand. My parents took a sword into the back of my underwear and call me. Leonardo it's the teenage mutant Ninja Turtles. this is the first movie from. Nineteen Ninety which I remember very very differently. I don't think I've seen it since I was a little kid and I think I'm scarred because I watched it as an adult but let me interview my two guests who I forced to watch this movie. First of all a good buddy of mine. He is the head of comedy content and programming Pandora. It's drew Miller low. Ethan how are you? I'm doing quite well drew. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I assume you're also in Los Angeles. I am in Los Angeles also wash film last night and I have a lot of things to say about it so I'm excited to do this podcast with you. Oh fantastic I'm excited to talk to you about it. Man Just choosing even where to start is going to be tough. This movie was all over the place but joining a Drouin. I is the California Academy of Sciences Renowned entomologist and Patterson scholar Dr Brian Fischer greetings. And I must admit I did enjoy the movie to. Oh all right. Had you seen it before I had never seen it I missed most of what normal people do in life than. It's good to catch up on feel like I'm catching up. And is that because you were in places like Madagascar finding different species of insects? Yes I spent a Lotta time traveling and exploring the biological world and somehow this did not show up on my radar as a must see during the nineties. I guess you guys didn't bring like a VHS player and in television and a VHS copy of teenage mutant Ninja Turtles when you're traveling the world. No I didn't even know existed. So thank you for letting me to this very important part of our American culture. Hey listen that's my job man. Yours is to discover new species and probably find who knows cures for diseases based on brand new animals and blood and guts and stuff and I introduced people to movies that barely make sense and must have come from somebody who was like smoking meth. I'm not sure how they invented this this movie and they tried to explain it with like this. I don't even know how to describe it but like the origin story that they do in. This movie is probably the most disturbing part. Would you guys agree with that? That's the best thing. Basically just like a recreation of like a planet earth done by Children Essentially. Yes for obviously the most well done seen in the film next to the rat splinter during the cross estimates master scenes Nazis. Yeah okay. I don't want to dive into the movie too quickly. I have so much I wanNA break down about it but we hold on for one second. Please I love I. I'm just reading Dr Ryan Fisher. Wikipedia near Dr Fisher. Did you know that you have discovered over one thousand species all well? Maybe in the nineties. That might be true but it's a little bit out of date so was covering species in in in my world in. Saxon actually not surprising. So Hammer's wishes I'm just. I've discovered thousands of new species of pants but now we distinguish between discovery. You go out and collect them like I go to the Congo Basin ormat gas garin collected new species versus describing them. And that's actually a much longer more painful process in the secret world of taxonomy a whole field of science. It's been forgotten but practice for over two hundred fifty years and that is very slow. In fact I've only descried dislike less than eight hundred species of ants so I have to go to describe all the new species I've discovered. Wow what is your top three species. Oh great question all the lands. There's just so cool. And they're endemic to Madagascar this one genus Adema and the really hard to find one of the dudes. They're like the Ninja hands of GLOB woke. See Normal stocks. Most ants going. Just give you a two minute via lesson on Ant Hell. Yeah you see. Ants are the collective intelligence they only survived by working together. In fact when you talk about an aunt it's not the individual and that's not the organism. The organism is the colony. And that's the only way to look at a an aunt is through. Its calling in fact if your aunt imagine if you're out in your hungry and it's La it's very very hot and then all of a sudden you see this juicy caterpillar. What would you do. Are you the type that would like say? Hey let's bring some home for the colony all the Gbi that type and I know they're type like this in La that would say hey. I'm hungry by the bill. Collect even more to come. You probably eat it yourself right. I would do a little bit of both right. Yeah I'd take a bite or two and be like okay now I've now I'm full. Let me take back to my people. Were guess what answering food back to the nest. Not because they're like does Buddha on this splinter no because they can't eat food in fact they have to bring it to their stomach. The stomach of an ant colony is actually in the nest. They can't eat solid food adult an today. Empty walking around can't eat solid food. They can only drink de little tiny constriction. The back of their head only allows liquids into their body so they kicked her food back to the nest and feed it to their larva. And this is the point of the story. The larva art fed the solid food. The larva headman will eat it. Digest it and then in almost all aunts. They regurgitated ants. Walk up to it in the colony drink that liquid that's full of all the nutrients which colony needs and they walk around asking all the other ants which were all their sisters and their mom the Queen if they're hungry and if they're hungry they regurgitate from their social stomach and feed the other workers. It's called social food transfer prophylaxis try it at home. I'm not going to try and all right. I'll try with you drew. But that's it so what you're saying. Is that these larva can eat solid food but a normal adult aunt loses the capability to do that. They just can't they. Can't they. Have a construction. Only liquid can get into their bodies so they can drink food and actually have to stomachs that take liquid the social stomach which is what they used to walk around and then regurgitate it and give it to other ants. That are hungry. It's just like our blood system right. How energy through our bodies don't how we get our food from stores to stores across a city. It's the same way they actually have. Transport system social organisms have to have a transport system for energy. In this case. It's the social stomach in ans- take this to the extreme. There's honeypot ants. That actually gets so big and falling with their social stomach that they've become like refrigerators for the colony they hang from the ceiling during that time of like right now when there's not much you can get anything in the covert prime and other ants can come up to it and go. Hey I'm hungry. And they can tap into that refrigerator and get all this nice juice and honey in fact you can actually dig them up in California Arizona where you find them and actually pop them into your mouth. Little bursts of delicious. That is crazy and speaking by the way of how insects eat you. I read a proponent of US. Eating insects is that correct. Oh yes this is kind of taken over my life. Right now because. I just think it's something we have to do. We have to fine new systems for producing food sustain. Were our world are growing world and present you mean just crickets or other Creepy crawlies as well. I think all insects. I think we have to really start imagining new ways of farming insects Efficient ways to produce protein another micronutrients. They don't take much water. They are crudely compact efficient in terms of energy put to to energy output. And you get more product by creating food from crickets than you would from chicken. A pig or cow just make sense especially for places that are experiencing famine Said you get more product so yes so for every kilo or pound of food you give a cow to give same amount of food to cricket or other insect your get six times amount of food that you could eat so you get basically six times the amount of protein crazy by harvesting from crooked than you would from a cow in about three times if it was a pig for example so if I I'm sorry but if I went through your refrigerator and your cabinets are you telling me that I would find today a bunch of insects that you put on a piece of bread or how does this work. I'm farming crickets right now and I actually eat the cricket every morning with yogurt so I actually have ground cricket powder and I mix of yogurt in. Look just like such tele. It's actually delicious. And you can add Muesli to it. And that's how I it's delicious. It's delicious people eat it because it's good tasting. Wow well I think it has a little bit of a chocolate flavor to it. And that's why I think a lot of people like it with yogurt. My God I love chocolate. I've been doing this research recently on the history of edible insect recipes in and a lot of travelers in Africa and Madagascar and like they're sixteen seventeen and later even remarked about the importance of eating insects on the Diet so the local people especially during the Times of drought for example. And they also surprised. Hunger wasn't present in these countries and they saw the Drek wink the fact that they would actually harvest lots of insects like a locust outbreak grind to fall and sex into a powder and it's like stored it doesn't go bad and they can add it to food during that time of stress so they can suit those periods. And that's all been almost lost now that we've come so modern and civilized that we've lost his really important aspect. I WANNA jump back into this because I'm very very curious about it. I could totally see myself putting chocolate cricket powder into a bunch of my stuff but let's jump into these turtles because like I said no I just have to interrupt one second to finish. This storyline unacceptable unacceptable story. I start with the draft land and I'm and I'm so close to finishing own. That's my that's my fault. So this doesn't do that. It doesn't have triple axis doesn't have social food transfer so it has to take food to the nest but the larva when they eat it. Don't regurgitate it so to get food. Through the colony each ant has to come along with the Queen to the Larva fight the larvae until it bleeds and the adults have to drink the blood of their own young WHOA. I'm very glad I let you finish. That's totally disturbing fiction. Movie in and of itself. That's crazy. Yes we've made it so sanitized by calling it non destructive cannibalism. So doesn't sound so crazy when you see it that way. But let's leave the back to the Okay okay. We're hopping into the shell here. Can we can. We have Dr Fisher back and do the movie and smokes not. Yeah Yeah I'm down with that and movies always make the same mistake but they always give them boys names and as the little either said they're all females. They're all sisters working together. I the males are a temporary trivial part of the an story. Yeah similar to humans useless so let us three beings talk about this ridiculous film for a second. I was surprised to learn how much of a humongous success it was. I thought Ninja Turtles were just famous for. I guess as like a animated show. Because I think that's what I used to watch. I knew these movies were out and I knew the comic book comic segment of this or whatever but this movie was humongous. They totally took over. The budget was thirteen point. Five million in May two hundred and two million at the time it was the highest grossing independent film of All time and a bunch of major studios passed on it Walt Disney Columbia Mgm Orion Paramount Warner Brothers all turned down the film for distribution. And I'm sure somewhat regretted that decision. A new line cinema was the one that ended up distributing it and at the time just made like B. Movies and stuff so this I think was a gigantic help for them. Okay secondly I wanted your guy's take on this because something about the plot didn't make sense to me and I know what you're thinking. How is that possible turtles? The plot doesn't check out. Okay follow me on this in case you haven't seen the movie they do like. I mentioned before. This flashback sequence. Right where we see in the sewer like a rat and these little turtles interacting with this radioactive Goo and splinter like saves them. The rat puts them into a jar or can I think he said and they all grow physically and they grow intellectually but then splinter is talking about how before. All of this happened that he learned how to be a Ninja. He learned some sort of Ju Jitsu because he was trapped in a cage with like a jujitsu master. This guy named Yoshi. So can you guys explain to me how he was able to know? That guy's name how he was able to learn karate moves because that was all prior to radioactive goo pollution. That's a great point because that would be my question to Dr Fisher can a rat mimic human movements as in Ninja fighting or any other human movements while this great question and it actually forces I think humans to think about what is intelligence and in what types of forms in life can intelligence take. So I think we're beginning to accept that maybe dolphins elephants Our intelligence and Definitely maybe in. We think also rats to learn thing okay. They've been trained to go through mazes right. So what extent do we say? They're not intelligent enough to learn karate guest or martial arts I don't think there are bad smart but what could imagine if we accept that intelligence is something that we haven't really understood yet the maybe before the glue or the splinter was very careful. Study of this master okay. Great so that checks out Aston answered. I'd be careful saying ou because I think the second movie is all about some sort of. Who's which is different. Okay so what is the extent of that? I don't know I don't remember that movie. And maybe we'll do another bad science about that one. I personally love the third one. I know this is probably GONNA upset everybody but for some reason as a kid I remember watching the third one where they go to like ancient Japan. I think but anyways everyone hated it. I looked it up online and I was like what everyone hate this movie but whatever I remember that one. It's just based on watching this movie. I think there's a lot about it. That would not lie today. Just like there was a few moments in this one was like. I don't know if this would be okay anymore and I think definitely in the third one having not watched. I assume there's a bunch of problems but Speaking of things that are probably not okay. There's like a weird. Did you guys feel weird watching the love story stuff between like Rafael and April and that guy. Casey Jones April interest spaces love triangle. The interspecies love triangle. I thought was not. You're not not for me. I don't know how did you. How did you guys fall on that? They actually following how humans may do it but they didn't follow the way turtle. A turtle approach to the love scene would have been quite differently. Right know what turtles species there mckean. But it's probably a US species in the nineties. I think a lot of people had box turtles are slider turtles in the slider. Turtle would actually The male swims in front of the other of the female and kind of waves. Their hands in head in front of it before Mateen. I didn't see any of that so I would have liked just a little bit of the turtle behavior coming out in this scene of loved. Their April will go for that or a much bigger thing but she seemed very open to new things. Right I mean she was already prancing. Turtle Love I wanNA bring up another weird thing in the movie you just touch touched on with these sort of insensitive to perhaps Japanese culture. So what's a couple? Maybe I was wrong with a couple of liberal sneaky racist jokes here. Yeah and I could be of of being this moment when April getting jumped by the foot the foot gang in the Clinton the subway And they started talking to her and then she responds with behind on my Sony pigments again and they were talking to a Japanese accent. Was that a call out to the jeopardy's and Sony. I didn't really get. I thought it might have been a racist. What was that? I'm I'm with you on that one I don't know how the dock feels about it but I definitely felt like. Ooh That was one of those moments that would would not be cool. Weren't didn't age. Well let's say yes not expecting that. Yeah it's pretty much everything from this time period. There's GonNa be some weird like. Oh Jesus why say that was a kids movie? I joke for the adults or something. Yeah I think there were a few parts that were like jokes for adults. Just didn't make any sense really. I mean not that it was a joke but that whole obviously the Inter species love stuff is just weird overall. We can all agree but even just the human human weird loves. I don't even know if I WANNA call it love story but just like sexual tension between Casey and April. I was like what is this. Why do we need this? We don't So I have a bunch of science questions here doc I got. I got a lot of turtle questions so I know. It's not your super expertise but if you could weigh in I know you have a passion for turtles first off. I feel like I had a few friends when I was little. I don't know drew viewed it also. They had turtles as pets. So do turtles make good pets? I mean I know they're endangered. Should we not have them as pets because they are adorable? So how does that work? Well Yeah I think one bad or downside of this movie was that the kind of trade turtles As these lovely little things that we should all have and I did see some information that it did cause a lot of people go out and buy turtles and then they got tired of them and they tried to flush the toilet on my good guess. What TURTLES ARE NOT ISSUE? They have to breathe. Air questioned him down. The toilet isn't really the right thing to do. Are you saying people in Mastro's drown a bunch of turtles because of this movie? How can you flesh by baby once? And then they got like. I don't want this thing. That's crazy but turtles are endangered. So the idea of going out and collecting a turtle and bring them inside and do they make very friendly competitors is I guess as much as maybe even more than a crocodile does alligator. But you know in terms of as a long term companion. It's popping up the best pet together. I think cats would probably be better. Yeah I have two cats and I wouldn't trade them for a million turtles. No offense to the turtle species I did you have you. You know what I'm talking about though right drew didn't people have like I don't know if it just because we were kids or something but I feel like everyone had turtles. I had a pit verbal. My friends were cool so turtles but you guys have had some interesting but you had a pet turtle you said duck. I had a pet turtle and a pet came and pet. Caiman alligator And I've had it was crazy for like fifteen years until I got giant and then became very problematic to feed it got loose in the house. And what get's giant came would disappear in our house for weeks and we didn't know where when hang out and then I'd hear my mother screaming in the in the shower in the morning when she walks into the shower and she greets a came in. They're trying to get some water. My God you're a wild man. That's insane you back. Then it was combined for fifty cents at a pet shop in Arkansas. If you wanted to know the good old days yeah backman you can buy flour cool their local pet shop or give bad fish and we'd all the kids would come over and watch me feed it actually brought at the high school and then use it as an excuse me out of class all the time. I would come to the door and knock on the door and say you're came and got loose and I'm GonNa have to leave the class. Dammit I can't do this math test right now came in in the cafeteria and what came home. I WanNa tie something back to you. Said flushed down the toilet. Maybe that's how the turtles ended up in the sewer because I never said how they ended up there. Oh so perhaps that is the sort of resolve. People flashing their The turtles that'd be my guess. I'm not sure. How do they end up in the sewer? Dr Fisher in the movie. Explain it right. I guess I'm guessing the same thing that was a very common thing to flush your pets down on the toilet. I guess we're the hell did that. Start why would anyone flush alive thing down the toilet if you go up? You'll see lots of interesting things Oh my gosh yes people do it. We're GONNA take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey bed scientists Ethan here and I'm going to tell you about a new podcast. I'm super excited about called surprisingly brilliant. It's another secret podcast. So if you like this podcast you're GonNa love surprisingly brilliant. It's hosted by Greg Foot and Merrin Huns Burger. It's a podcast that tells you the Bazaar Journeys Wild Experiments and strange ideas that led to the discovery of important medicine. The invention of life saving technology and evidence about the beginnings of life as we know it. There's an episode about Eighteenth Century American scientists who subjects himself to grim and grotesque experiments in order to try to find a cure for yellow fever. They have episode about Nikola Tesla. That's amazing the involved in gambling. There's big walls of electricity anyways. Don't forget listen to surprisingly brilliant on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast and surprise yourself with what a brilliant decision that was. That's not their tagline. I just said that to try to conclude this whole thing and I'm GonNa give myself a C. Minus THE BRIDGES OVER HERE. We go about science. What about what they eat? I mean this is the big question on everybody's mind right. Can TURTLES EAT PIZZA? I think in their stomach. They can actually absorb anything boots turtles. I mean other turtles say. They're investigating anything. Do they like pizza? Okay well that's a different question. They definitely like pizza. Oh they definitely like pizza. So that's we don't even have to think about to be honest. I mean turtles. They can eat vegetables like fruits but they kind of walking around all day long but they also can eat meat so if you had like a fish so get like an showbiz pizza. Think that'd be great. I think wow okay and you said they might eat other turtles. Is that a common thing. Why would they do that? Well I just remember having a bunch of snapping turtles and then one day there was one less imagined. Somebody ate my little snapping turtle. What about the show? The eat no way well. I think like alligators crocodiles. You can just stop anything into their stomachs and part of it will get digested not but these were maybe a snapping turtles so their shelves. We're not conclude as hard as a giant. You Know Galumph is turtle so let's talk about the show then for a second. I read a little bit about it. I know there's like an upper shell. The carapace or carapace in the lower shelves is the plaster on I. I hope that we can come up with pneumonic to remember that because I do love both of those terms and I didn't know that there's like two pieces to every shell but I also read that they have like nerves embedded into them and blood vessels so like they can actually feel pain from their shell and they'll end the shell will bleed. Which I thought was really interesting. But so you're saying also that it grows with them. There's like some sort of myth or people just believe they find new shells like snails. Do but that's not the case right now and that's not the case and it's a bone right so it's growing just like our bones grow In Our lifetime. It's just that their bones mostly on the outside on the skin over the bones and that during the bone and the skin there can be nerves and blood vessels for example. Wow and they just grow the same way. Our bones grow against. Yes and it's it's an amazing feature right. That's has its limitations. They're they're approaching the style of evidence. Right where you have a giant beetle and the great thing about Beatles that they can lift amazing amount of weight because they're insects because they're they're skeleton is on the outside in all the juicy parts muscle suffer inside in. This is basically the kind of vertebrate equivalent of insects pitting a shell the skeleton on the outside but the limitation of insects way. Don't find giant insects. Is that because it gets heavy after awhile. And there's some danger you know Of Rolling over never getting back up because it's just so heavy and that can happen turtles too. Yeah Okay I wrote that down also that is a joke and I think that third movie the one that I like weirdly worse one of them falls and he says like fallen and I can't get up so you're saying that that is legitimate. Turtles can't flip themselves over. Well at certain size they can't do that. The young ones Canada more flexible in their skeletons. Not so they're not so. Why can we get his growing with time? So maybe in the third movie aged have gotten bigger and it's harder for them to turn over but the movie we saw looked like they were still nimble enough that they could turn themselves over. Okay so there's still somewhat young in this their teens. They definitely teams. Yeah I don't turtle do in the real world. If it was on his facts it would just have to be like that for Dis may die or or Jesus is intelligent Wednesday could probably talk to each other and help but in the real world now. They're stuck wow sounds. Yeah that is super annoying. Like what a terrible part of the shell which seems so cool but then man is up by you in the butt you end up on it. Which is one of the reasons. Why sadly Multiple eight these things you can distort them quite easily You just have to go out into the you know. They're they're not all turtles tortoises which are are related group of animals on and they can just take those and turn them over and then the basically stationary stack them up on your ship as your sailing around the world and just kind of pull went on and as you go along. Oh my sadly that's how a lot of the large tortoises disappeared and continue to disappear like Madagascar people just today still eat turtles and tortoises. Yes it's it's a huge problem. It's going to be why a lot of these uniform tortoises of Madagascar disappear because You can just now with cars driving around these roads and just every time you see when crossing stop to get thrown back and do they blake. I. This is a terrible question. Probably but they eat them raw or cook them or the COOKHAM also upset trade which allows him also to be shipped easily to Sammy's but not in Madagascar. It's the pet trade in eating them. That's driving them to extinction another reason to eat cricket. Exactly the turtles alone we always have in Madagascar biodiversity focus for our edible insect projects in the south. It will mean to try to also save the tortoises there by farming edible insects to give an alternative food source and income to these people. And is this the main reason that they're so endangered because it's like all species of turtles and tortoises are like endangered? Right I guess probably some of the more common ones like the sliders. I'll be odd. But almost every tortoise in Madagascar's endangered may really can't run away from the third just so easy to collect visit mostly due to people eating them or is there other. I don't know other reasons that they're hunted or has like climate change screwed them as far as you know in and Predator that each turtles there are but I think that's a major threat habit. At transformation growing human populations combined with the pet. Trade is driving choices in turtles extinction. Okay so stop having pet turtles everybody now and if you do have on right now don't flush it down the toilet like an idiot. You know this movie came out today. You would hope that one of the producers would have gotten on board with preserving tortoises or some of the funding toward that. You know the the Madagascar movie that came out of Madagascar. They did donate some money to support some Lemur research and Medical Oscar. But that's cool. You would think they're still obliged in a sense you'd think The Ninja Turtle Industry. If they should also you know have an offshoot. That's actually saving turtles. Maybe twenty fourteen the remake. On an your anything about donating to the turtle 'cause but perhaps a wo- Michael Bay should we get him on the Horn or was Michael Berry? I think all yep drew just google it and figure out how to get him on the on the line here. Please no problem okay. Expect at any minute now because I have some deep questions for him They haven't evolved much right. They've been here for like forever. It's like some species have been here for over two hundred fifty million years. I read and I assume that they're pretty much the same so if the becoming endangered like why haven't they evolve to Spitfire? It's it's an amazing thing this concept of time with evolution and in the morphological appearance of things. So you're right at this kind of form. Charl just like the alligator crocodile hasn't really changed much while other things are kind of quickly adapted involving in their lineages quite short because they'd devolved into something different but we keep calling turtles turtles in cardinals crocodiles because they look the same but they're still evolving. They're adapting all the time but not just Morphological and wide. Some lineages or or groups of organisms evolve faster morphological than others is a huge mystery in science. And we're just now beginning to get a glimpse of how natural selection is linked toward morphology and duration of lineage through time. So but it's it's a fabulous question. Hey thanks I don't know who listen to the soundtrack those vanilla ice and actually deuce Spitfire on that. So Oh I need to listen to that. No I mean maybe I would recognize it but no I do not know works eibar that soundtrack actually had it when I was a kid who was a red tape and we listened to all the plan. That is a actually a time soundtrack. Really good stuff and C. Hammer. How of Nila is of a lot of good defense on man? Everybody jumped in to help the turtle. I saw some videos of turtles making noises. You guys have experienced listening to a Turtle. Sound like it's really weird like when they're mating. Oh my gosh. That's incredible recreate themselves. I'll leave that to the I don't know what the mating of tortoises in particular go on a very long time and there's a lot of grunting going on and goes on for days and days. Yeah it's it's quite disturbing when you're in the forest in Madagascar for example in the south in this habitat called spiny Bush and all day all night. You hear this kind of granting going on and you know what's happening there breakfast there at lunch there. They stay awake for days. Mating on and it's like the they. I'm sure to expert will provide some more background on this in my censor their basically Trying really hard of course but also guarding against other males from coming over and made it so well some of them sound like they're like a dog some of them. I heard they were kind of like wolfing and embarking and then some of them sound like a chicken also they're like clucking but I just had no clue you know. Before I was looking it up I was like yeah. I wonder what turtle sounds are and I couldn't think of even how to start but they differ there's like all different sorts of Of sounds really but what I what I have fixed it in my head though is watching the strain on the on the heads you know. The male is completely extended their head and stretching and and and try and it makes the mail of very old nail when they're doing that so it's time for them to observe. I don't WanNa get graphic on the potty but it takes them daily basically Jackie late. Is that what we're saying. I'll have to look. I assumed that with multiple times within the couple so I imagine that Iran. So there's some sort of weird tortoise turtle tantric sex going on in the wilderness. Is that what you're saying? Let's heard when I'm in the forest and find at times disturbing when you go to look at them you watch them you like. Oh my gosh. The male tortoise always looks much older in that position than team. Probably really is Sounds really hot. There's no segue here so I read that they can turtles the leatherback sea turtle which can weigh up to two thousand pounds and that some species can live to be one hundred fifty years or older so is that real and also why can they live longer than us. What are they doing that? We're not is it the days of sex yet. Maybe turtle that's usually just a minute of sex in their life span of one hundred years. It's everything's slowed down. Should we just eat boots and turtles like they do in? That'll that's the secret to longevity of life yet. It isn't impressive to see these large. You know ocean turtle or a land tortoise like Galapagos Tortoise And they can live super long Days they're often given as gifts to that island or that prince so that president does gifts live on forever. Often go to the zoo in Cedar. Glop is tortoise. Zoar Madaba or from Orissa given this tortoise was given gift seventy years ago. It's still alive. Impressive other the animal that lives the longest. Probably not but that does seem like a long time. Which would be you know sharp. No I know how old ants can run in How long can ans- let you chime in? How old can answer live? I feel it can't be a very long time. I I'M GONNA say three weeks in sixteen years they up to like forty years. Wow how clean years holy crap. It's like a tree. That workers are expendable like leaves. They live maybe two years at most but the Queen is in the colony pressing more and more eggs all the time More lease incense can live like forty forty five for certain kinds of reading here. That a whale is the longest living thing but then there's like a jellyfish but they call the immortal jellyfish that doesn't count so sharks and whales then number five. It says is the tortoise so Galapagos Tortoise that you were talking about which was given as a gift which I think is probably a terrible idea and bad for their habitat. I also if you guys want to see a picture of a really scary turtle. There's an alligator snapping turtle which is like the opposite of what I think about in my head when I say turtle which is like a small cute turtle and then these guys are like that on bath salts. It's like huge and scary and I couldn't look at it for more than fifteen seconds. I just found a turtles fact or fiction quiz of line. Maybe we can do ten point. You guys got it okay. So basically instances on non MECHANICA DOT COM and. Start the clears. It might be for children. But we have thirty seconds. Each of six to answer each question. I will read the question out and Ethan you WanNa Give Your answer Dr Fisher Yeah and it's basically just factor fiction events have questioned one. All turtles have hard shells fact or fiction fiction outside either through a second okay. I was leaning towards fixing just out of the way it was written fiction and that is correct. Next question. Turtles can catch the cold. Wow Topical Oh my God I I wanna say no well. It's it's a virus of you. Exemplify a lot of viruses. Could they be kept by a turtle? Why not go with that? Yeah Baptist correct sorry Tim. Smallest Turtle lives in Africa factor fiction. Oh Oh okay. I thought that was like detail about the smallest turtle lives in Africa after ten seconds. Shirt fact False it was fact Ethan doctor on this one Bam NBA degree. There are about twenty species of turtles factor fiction out man. I WANNA say fiction and hope that there's a lot more I would say fiction too. Yeah that feels like fiction. Correct next question. A turtles have very sharp teeth. I mean it's kind of subjective but whatever yeah very short typic- yeah fact. They don't have to question. Well yes trick questions. You got smoked. Ethan that's dammit hurdles cannot run factor fiction man. This is another one where I wanNA guess fact but I wanNA root for turtles and give them the opportunity to run in my mind. So I'm going to say fiction fiction the ever put a box turtle outside instead said hey go get into run faster than you can is correct awesome. The oldest turtle is about fifteen years old back fiction no. I now know that that it's fiction fictional. Does all hell. This is an interesting one. The first turtles evolved about two hundred million years ago Florida. Yeah that's a pretty Internet fact. Yeah correct this is the perfect time to do a quiz because we just for bugging half hour. We got one wrong. That's question last question here. We go knee last question. Turtles can see in color fact or fiction. I'm GONNA say fact. I think that they would need good site. that's ten seconds. Fake seven hours. All okay there is like I is. I said they say color color. It was fiction. Oh with black and white what are we talking about vigilant not follow the black and white man okay. That's a bummer. A bonus question. Can I ask one bonus question? Yeah Yeah Bonus. The rotten tomatoes score for this movie was higher or lower than fifty percent. This is the tomato meter not the audience score. What's the difference? What does that mean? I think that's the critics consensus mixed with. The audience was higher lower than fifty fifty tomato meter. I'M GONNA say low below fifty. I'm going to say lower to give me. I guess it was forty. Forty two DR. Okay thirty nine but the audience must spend like ninety. Wow via real answer was forty percent on the tomato. Meter wins by one percent. Got Me Audience. Score eighty one percent critics consensus. Okay go ahead. Teenage mutant Ninja. Turtles is exactly as advertised. One liners brawls and general silliness. Good for the young at heart irritating for everyone else. Wow I mean that's pretty accurate so I mean especially experiencing it now both ways like loved it when I was young at heart which is young and then now as an adult. It was like there were there were. It was tough. It was tough to get through. I felt bad being such a fan. I had Ninja Turtles. Everything Man. I had Ninja turtles clothes and underwear and lunch boxes in the toy. I had it all same. Salmon dressed up for Halloween Action dressed up as the player. I saw the from the from the movie while Casey Casey Jones exactly wasn't that his name okay. Anyway we're running out of time here. We got to wrap it up. I can't thank you guys enough for being on the program. Drew what would you? What would you like to tell people about working? They find you know what's going on with Pandora. Thanks Ethan You can find me all over the Internet and places but more importantly If you're a standup comedy fan you should be listening to stand up comedy radio on. Pandora you any artist you liked Thompson. Garay Schumer Kevin. Hart you name it. You start a comedy radio station on Pandora and we will play joke after joke after joke based upon that artist It's a great way to stay light to last of to waste time in these times. Such a foreign teen so download Pandora. If you don't have it and start a comedy station. That sounds great. Can people also look forward to hearing like comedy music on that Station because a lot of people really love funny songs right? Yeah that's great. You ask actually this comedy man and recommend called the Kuti's have you heard of them. No no that sounds super cool. Pandora I would go on. Pandora just started hootie station. You'll get a bunch of other songs they have. I think they have potential. I don't love their personalities of the people in the band have potential man. He's a huge entertained. Yeah that sounds really cool really hipped. Okay Dr Brian Fisher. What's going on at the CAL Academy well? The Cal Academy is closed. So that's a good place to go right now. But in this time of social distancing I think based on our discussion today would be great to think about nature embracing time That we often forget that we are part of nature we are animals and we are connected and there is no US versus nature. Were part of the same. So what happens out? There happens to us so let's not forget about that connection during this period of relation. Wow that is beautifully. Said could not agree with it more and yeah just to review. I guess stop flushing stuff down the toilet alive and be sure to eat insects. That's like the new cool thing that all the smart people are doing drew told me he's going to start doing that right. Yeah of course now. I'm doing that for lunch. Ended to help you get jacked up. Because they have a bunch of protein right right well and we can eat ants. Doctor is that okay you can eat. Ants insects are great. No matter what they're great for the Gut microbiome the great for the micronutrients. They're great for the planet. Greg Okay there you go. Don't watch this movie and eat a bunch of insects. Thank you guys for joining me on the show and we'll see you next time later by bad signs is hosted and produced by meet Edinburgh. Our associate producer is. Emily felt. Our engineer is Jeremy Schmidt. Bats is is edited by Lucas Bolinger and our social media is managed by blue whale media. Shout out to Jane. Kate and the executive pizza did do. Sir Is Kushner follows on instagram. At bad science show. That's ads bed science show or feel free to send us an email bad signs that secret dot com. Let us know what you think about the show any movies we should do in the future. I always appreciate getting your emails and of course Louis on I tunes review that lets other people hear about the show. And I'll see you all next week bye.

Madagascar Dr Brian Fisher US Ethan Edinburgh Pandora Los Angeles apple Greg Foot Casey Casey Jones C. Hammer Drouin California Academy of Sciences Dr Brian Fischer Dr Ryan Fisher Leonardo Miller Africa Nikola Tesla CAL Academy
Finite

TED Radio Hour

53:54 min | 2 years ago

Finite

"This message comes from NPR sponsor Comcast. Comcast values your time. That's why you can schedule to our appointment windows, including nights and weekends that way. You can spend more time doing what you love. Comcast working to make things. Simple, easy, and awesome. Hey, it's guy here. So as of this month, there are roughly seven point seven billion people living here on planet earth and all those people are using resources like food and oil and water and medicine faster than ever before. So today on the show. We're gonna explore our finite world. And if it's even possible to innovate our way out of it. This episode is called finite and it originally aired in July of twenty fifteen. This. Is the Ted radio hour. Each week round breaking tedtalk. Technology entertainment design design is that really what I've never known delivered. A Ted conferences around the world the human imagination we've had to believe in impossible thing. That's true nature of reality. Beckons from just beyond those talks, those ideas gap did for radio. From NPR. I'm guy Roz. So like a lot of people back in the late seventies. Mark Plotkin head he'd really bad trip. The worst experience of my life was taking I o Oscar with a shame in from the Colombian Amazon. And in that, I witnessed my death. Mark clock in is an ethnobotanist, which means he studies plants specifically plants that grow in the Amazon, and because he's interested in the medicinal power of those plans to heal Markle spent a lot of time communing with the native tribes who use those plants to brew things like AT called Iowa. Well, we would describe it as a hallucinogenic term the Indians don't like they call. It remains of medicine. It's the original medicine the most important medicine and medicine used to welcome guests, a medicine only, the rudest guest would refuse and a medicine that Mark was offered that day in the Colombian Amazon and I drink the first Cup, and I felt pretty good. And then a couple of hours later, they will either say to you you should drink another Cup or do you want? Another Coppard don't drink another Cup. And I'm recalled he offered it to mariah's for it. And I took it, and it just went downhill from there like right away right away. What do you remember just crying and screaming, and wishing I was dead. What did you feel like? Was in my misery. And I wanted to be put out of it was terrible. Well, you are in pain, nausea, nausea. I mean, all of them. So how did you experience death? I saw myself die and dead. But painful and horrible and terrible. It wasn't like I'd slowed by the top of the room in there. I was it was awful. And then it got worse. I ended up vomiting purple phosphorescent scorpions. Mark is not speaking literally. And you know. Shame and say when you take Wasco you get out of it what you need to. And so afterwards, I said to the shame. And why did you do that to me? And he's at the fate of my culture, the fate of my forest joined with that of you and your organization I wanted you to experience death. So you would never fear it again. And the point here. It's not that shames have all the answers, Iowa has all the answers. They don't, and it doesn't the fact is that some of these systems of healing some of these magic plants can do things that we cannot. So you've probably heard this before the Amazon is the most biodiverse place on earth full of natural resources with potentially lifesaving medical applications, but its most valuable resource is quite possibly knowledge the secrets that only native tribes know about knowledge that Mark Plotkin described from the Ted stage four years ago iron my foot and a climate accident. No went to the doctor. She gave me heat cold aspirin narcotic painkillers anti inflammatories. Cortisone shots didn't work. Several months later, I was in the northeast Amazon walked into a village and the shame and said, you're limping and I'll never forget this is long as I live. He looked me in the face. And he said take off your shoe and give me your Michetti. You walked over to a palm tree and carved off of fern through it in the fire applied it to my foot through it in a pot of water and had me drink the t the pain disappeared for seven months when it came back. I went to see the shame, and again, he gave me the same treatment, and I've been cured for three years now. Who would you rather be treated by? Make no mistake. Western medicine is the most successful system of healing ever devised. But there's a saying in Suriname that ideally love the rainforest hold answers to questions we have yet to ask. But as you all know, it's rapidly disappearing here in Brazil in the Amazon around the world. The world is full of finite resources some of them. We don't tap into like we should. And some we use as if they'll never run out our show today. Finite ideas about preserving the dwindling resources on the one planet, we inhabit and how to make the most of what's left from water. We've underpriced water we've overexploited it. We don't actually regulate it. We just use too much to oil. They're all no, non radical solutions left, such as the extent of the climate crisis that we really need to be doing a lot of really new thinking two things you might not think about as valuable resources just like with oil. It's getting more and more difficult to tap into pools of antibiotic effectiveness, and how to use just you know, what we need one of the things that I see in working with and studying indigenous cultures is the concept of the finite and the concept of gratitude Indian spent a lot of time thanking the gods of the forest thinking the animals of the forest. Not taking more than they need. Mark Plotkin has been studying those indigenous cultures in the Amazon since nineteen seventy seven, and I've been going many times you're ever since often extended per is in the good old days when I was a graduate student. Mark follow his tribesmen through the rainforest asking about plants and herbs how they use them speaking their language, the tribal languages in which I deal are still I'm on total, which is the predominant trading language in the northeast, Amazon and trio that second language Mark speaks trio is spoken by just four thousand people. Most of them live in tribes along the border between Brazil and the country of sore nam and those tribes generally don't keep records. They don't write down what they know about the local plants. So Mark learned trio in part to help preserve that knowledge that might have otherwise been lost to history knowledge that could contain secrets to new medicines, my colleague, the late great Loren McIntyre. Discover of the source lake. Of the Amazon Laguna McIntyre and the proven and each was lost on the Peru. Brazil border about thirty years ago. He was rescued by a group of isolated Indians. Call the matzos they beckon for him to follow them into the forest, which he did there. They took out palm leaf baskets there. They took out these green monkey frogs, and they began licking them. It turns out there highly hallucinogenic. Macintyre wrote about this. And it was read by the editor of high times magazine, you see the ethnobotanist have friends and all sorts of strange cultures. This guy decided he would go down to the Amazon and give it a world or give it a lick. And he did. And he wrote my blood pressure went through the roof. I lost full control of my bodily functions. I passed out in a heap. I woke up in a hammock six hours later felt like God for two days. An Italian chemist read this and said, I'm not really interested in the theological aspects of the green monkey frog. What's this about the change in blood pressure? There's an Italian chemist who's working on a new treatment for high blood pressure based on peptides in the skin of the green monkey frog and other scientists are looking at a cure for drug resistant, staff aureus, how ironic if these isolated Indians and their magic frog proved to be one of the cures. So years ago pharmaceutical companies would actively look for potential sources of medicine in places like the Amazon and from that came novacaine from the coca plant of South America, the first anesthesia from jarara arrow poison alkaloids from the Amazon, you lecarr pain is what they used to put in her eyes at the doctor's office to dilate our people's but today because technology has made it so much easier to make drugs from synthetic materials. Pharmaceutical companies aren't that interested in trudging through the rainforests to find new ones, which means there could be useful plant and animal species in the rainforest. We don't even know about and aren't working to conserve. Every species is a genius at something. That's why they survive wasn't me. Who said that it was Leonardo da Vinci. So doesn't it make sense to save all these pieces would I also wanna add is it's not just about a utilitarian approach to conservation. Let's save it because it's a cure for cancer. Let's say, but because it may help us with. Warming. I want to save it because they are. So if there is all this potential information that the we don't know. I mean, could there be tribes out there with that knowledge that we don't even know exist? Do believe they're isolated tribes that have had no contact with the outside world, assuming the outside world or guys like you or me and not maybe the next tribe over that. They may have traded with because I've never met a member of a loss tribe who has lost these guys know the forest far better than we do. Contacted people's hold a mystical and conic role in our imagination. These are the people who truly live in total harmony with nature. Why are these people isolated they know we exist? They know there's an outside world. This is a form of resistance. They have chosen to remain isolated. And I think it is their human rights to remain. So but the world is changing the diminishment of the civil war in Colombia the outside world is showing up to the north. We have a legal gold-mining also from the east from Brazil, there's increased hunting and fishing for commercial purposes, we see illegal logging coming from the south and improve as very nasty business. It's called human safaris. They will take you in two isolated groups to take their picture. Of course, when you give them clothes when you give them tools. You also give them diseases. We call these. Inhuman safaris. Now, remember, these are pre literate societies the elders are the libraries every time. A shame and dies. It's Ziff a library has burned down. Mark says to preserve that knowledge information, which could someday lead to new medicines means we almost have to think about that knowledge like a valuable resource, that's disappearing fast. So better protection of national parks. Better. Protection of indigenous lands penalties economic penalties for destroying forests and stupid ways. We know all the answers here, but the human animal the capitalist system doesn't always do things the right way, the most efficient way the quickest way the Greeks and the Romans ran the world for many years and their empires pooped out for many reasons, one of which is the Greek and the Roman armies ran on would their catapults were made it with their ships were made of wood chariots for made of would their weapons are made a wood. There's no forest left in Italy or Greece. So we consider ourselves here in the west is the air to that. Great. Greco Roman tradition. Logical man philosophy thinking science destroyed their environment, and they disappeared. I hope we're not making the same mistake. So the question is in conclusion is what the future holds. Let's think differently. Let's make a better world if the climate is going to change let's have a climate that changes for the better rather than the worse. Let's live on a planet full of luxury vegetation in which is located people's can remain in isolation can maintain that mystery. And that knowledge if they so choose let's live in the world where the shame men's live in these forests and heal themselves and us with their mystical plants and their sacred frocks. Thanks again. Pike in is the founder of the Amazon conservation team. His talk is at Ted dot com. More on finite resources and the ways to protect them in a moment. I'm guy Roz, and you're listening to the Ted radio hour from NPR. Hey, everyone just two quick. Thanks to two of our sponsors who helped make this podcast possible. I two we were GI Fulop is the co founder of textile company, and we work member. Brooke linen? She chose to move her business into a we work office in part because of we works flexible spaces, we hope that we can keep growing, and we know that we were has really great solutions as companies become mid size enlarge in that. They would be able to guide us to the best solution to learn more about how we work supports its members grow through flexible workspace offerings. Visit we dot co slash space matters. Thanks, also to Microsoft, the new Microsoft surface. Pro six can help you get things done. Whether you're on the field or running a business take Brian arrack PO and Michael Griffin, for example to former NFL teammates who have opened a cupcake shop with the surface pro they can do everything they need from setting schedules. Creating promotions for social media and designing new flavors. It's light super fast and has a great battery life, the new surface pro six from Microsoft. Hey, and one more quick thing before we get back to the show if you've ever listened to the credits at the end of the show, you might recognize the names rund, Abdelfatta and rum teen Arab Louis because for the past few years, they've brought you some of your favorite episodes of Ted radio hour and how I built this. And I have some incredibly exciting news rund teen are launching their very own show. It's called through line. And it's NPR's I ever history podcast. And it is amazing. But don't just take my word for it. Here it for yourself. The first episode is out right now. And if you stick around you'll hear more from run from teen a little later in the show. It's the Ted radio hour from NPR. I'm guy Roz and on the show today. Finite ideas about the resources we use and how to make the most of what's left. I mean think about the great American story. Right. Munch are white guys from Europe show up on the east coast and the land is theirs, and they just plow across the continent and use more and more and more just go west young man, and they'll be more resources, but says John Foley. Well, we have to Pacific and we had to stop. There isn't any more. We've run out we have run out of planet. In fact, fully isn't a colleges to runs the California academy of sciences, and one thing that I talk about a lot with folks that, you know, think about the last fifty years in the last fifty years the human population more than doubled our use of food and water more than tripled and our USA fossil fuels more than quadrupled in just fifty years. Yeah. Isn't that crazy that maze in that single lifetime? The world has changed more than all of human history combined now, so but when change John's has beats all the others agriculture's, probably the biggest thing we've ever done to the planet and the one thing that makes agriculture possible. Water turns out seventy percent or ninety percent of ending. How you do the bookkeeping of all the water consumed by people around the world is used for one thing irradiating crops. Check fully says that water and food are connected in a way that is just not sustainable. So think about California, for example, water films in California to first order a food problem. The biggest consumer of water in California right now is Falvo all fell alone is using more water than all of the humans in California combined and most of it's being shipped overseas to use as dairy food for cows in the Middle East or in China. So we're exporting California water to the Middle East or China to make milk somewhere else. And so we've underpriced water we've over exploited it. We don't actually regulate how people pump groundwater out of the ground. You can do that as much as you like we just use too much. In fact, John argues that agriculture is the most powerful force unleashed on the planet since the end of the ice age. And even though it's using up a lot of our land a ton of our water. He's not saying we should stop growing food. But that we have to be smarter about the way we grow it. Here's John on the Ted stage. This is a photograph flying into Arizona. And when you look at it, what are they growing? Here. Turns out they're growing lettuce in the middle of the desert using water sprayed on top. But what's really interesting is this water's gotta come from someplace, and it comes from here. The Colorado river irrigating the desert for food, or maybe golf courses in Scottsdale, you take your pick. Well, this is a lot of water. And again, we're mining water and using it to grow food. We've literally consumed an entire river for your. Action. And if anything we're going to have the demands on agriculture increase into the future. It's not going to go away. It's going to get a lot bigger mainly because of growing population. We're seven billion people today heading towards at least nine more importantly changing diets as the world becomes wealthier as well as more populous or seeing increases in dietary consumption of meat, which take a lot more resources than a vegetarian diet does. So more people eating more stuff and richer stuff. At of course, we have to replace all with other energy sources that will ultimately have to include some kinds of biofuels of energy. Sources see put these together it's really hard to see how are you get to the rest of the century without at least doubling global agricultural production. But if we keep doing that. I mean, we're gonna have to start like rationing water all around the world like how much people use of it and maybe drink in how people grow food and how much of it. They get like Knox movie, essentially. Like Mad Max, I'm here's my question. Is that where we're headed? Like, if we do nothing is that where we're going, and can we, you know, do you think that we'll be able to kind of make that not happen? You know, it's kind of funny given the business that I'm I'm actually an optimist. I guess I'd maybe it's not optimism. But I have hope hopes to different than Optimus. And my hope is that we can change that narrative that humans at their best when they're pushed to a corner and really see a problem, actually, respond magnificently and technology can help. I'm a big fan of drip, irrigation. I'm a big fan of organic farming methods that tend to hold more moisture in the soil getting rid of lawns getting rid of things that kind of wastewater really conspicuously. Let's tighten up our infrastructure. Let's cover canals. So they don't have operated. Let's get the pipes leaks fixed. And there are lots and lots of things like that. We can do. Now when I talk about this people often, tell me, well isn't black the answer or Ganic food local food. She M O's new trade subsidies, new farm bills. And yeah, we we have a lot of good ideas here, but not any one of these is a silver bullet. In fact, what I think they are more like silver buckshot, and I love silver buckshot, you put it together. And you've got something really powerful, but we need to put them together. So what we have to do. I think is invent a new kind of culture that plans. The best ideas of commercial agriculture in the green revolution. With the best ideas of organic farming and local food and the best ideas of environmental conservation, not to have them fighting each other, but they have them collaborating together. But this is hard, right. I mean, take Gad people to focus on a problem. That's that's like not in their face. It doesn't seem so urgent. Well, I think a lot of folks would argue that you know, we're fighting millions of years of evolution. Homo sapiens, thousands of years of history as civilized humans that tells us that we should be out there exploiting resources. So we could survive to the next day Dow, but if it meant using a little more soil or a little more land or grabbing a few extra animals to eat that was her job. I mean, we went from all of human history, we were basically insignificant compared to the size of the earth. And now suddenly in one generation or so we've flipped it around. Now, humans are bigger than the earth are appetite for resources is bigger than what the earth can actually provide. That's never happened before. So we're trying to get as smart as possible in a generation or two to undo millions of years of evolution thousands of years of history. That's really hard. But we're getting smarter. Justice were also getting dumber about planet, and I'd like to tip the scales to see how we can make the smarter went out. That's John fully he's in college issed and the executive director of the California academy of sciences. You could see his entire talk at Ted dot NPR dot org. So on the show today. We're talking about finite resources. And here's a story about something. We don't normally think of as a resource at all we heard about it from Ramadan, lex Orion. He's an economist who studies the patterns of disease and the story begins in late December nineteen forty in Oxford England, and this this police Manute shows up at info Marie in Oxford and on his day off from work he'd been scratched by Reuss thown. Apparently, the policeman was a guy named Albert Alexander. And that little scratch had turned into a nasty infection is anti aside of his cheek is infected and swollen. His eyes was so badly infected that they had to take his eyes out. There's a giant abscess on his face. Remember back in nineteen forty infections were a leading cause of death. Most of the soldiers in major wars didn't die from being shot. They died from infected wounds if someone had an infection from simple scratch, they could just weeded out. There was a good chance of dying. But it just so happened that at alab not too far from this particular hospital in Oxford where Albert Alexander wound up researchers working on an experimental new drug which was capable of killing bacteria. It had been discovered purely by accident a couple of years earlier, and it was made from a type of mold. But the researchers didn't know if the drug was safe enough to use a human being had never been tested in by chance. They found out about Albert Alexander. And they figured this was going to die anyway. And so why not try out the drug and give them the drug the first day already? He starts looking a little better as appetite returns. Secondly, he looks a whole lot better day three even better day four much better. Fifty looks like this man may actually live and then they'd run out of penicillin penicillin the very first antibiotic, so they run out of penicillin. And then what he died Lau, but you have to remember this was such a mockup experiment to have even worked because somehow this drug worked in the stationed and opened up his died era of medicine. Everything that we know as modern medicine really goes back to that particular day when abbot Alexander lived because of fantasy. And that was the start of the antibiotics revolution. The fact that you could keep an infection at bay from the body meant that you could not perform surgeries could perform long surgeries. And because that you could have transplants you could have a root canal all of these will made possible by the fact that we have antibiotics talking about a basically a miracle drug. I mean, arguably one of the most effective important medical advancements in human history, absolutely. Antibiotics completely transformed human lifespans overnight. But the antibiotics revolution is starting to unravel. According to the centers for disease control twice as many Americans now die each year from infections that can't be cured with antibiotics then from HIV aids. And that problem is getting worse. In fact, even as recently as safety eighteen years ago. I don't recall actually knowing a patient with resistant infection, but what has happened in the last ten years has been remarkable increase in the actual number of people who are dying or are not able to get better because they carry resistant infection and by the middle of the century. More people will die from infections from cancer. If the problem isn't solved it would be like winding the clock back to nineteen forty. So question is have the miracle drug turn into a global health threat? Well, the short answer is we've been over using them on humans and animals in the more. We use antibiotics the more opportunities bacteria have to develop resistance, and in some instances some about because of stop working entirely. We have used antibiotics and many instances appropriately we've used them on femmes presumably to keep animals healthy. But really to help them. Get fat a little faster to save a few pennies, but found of meat with squandered would it really the crown jewels of modern medicine. Which is why says we need to think of antibiotics in a completely different way, we need to think of them like we think of oil or water is a resource that needs to be protected Ramadan explained his idea from the Ted stage out turns out that the something fundamental about antibiotics which make different from other drugs, which is that if I misuse by use antibiotics, not only a my affected, but others affected as well. In the same way as vice use to drive to work or take a plane to go somewhere that the cost I imposed on others through blow climate change, go everywhere, and I don't necessarily take these costs into consideration. Now, that's the problem that's similar to another area that we all know about which is a few lose energy. And of course, energy use both the pleats energy as well as leads to local pollution and climate change. And typically in the case of energy to is in which you can deal with the problem. One is we can make better use of the oil that we have and that's analogous to making better use of existing antibiotics, and we can do this in a number of with that. We'll talk about second. But the other option is the drill baby drill option. Which in the case of antibiotics is is to go. Find new antibiotics now these are not separate they're related because if we invest heavily in new oil wills we reduce the incentives for conservation of oil and the same way that's going to happen for to fix the divers also going to happen, which is that if we use antibiotics appropriately we don't necessarily have to make the investments in in new drug development. The amazing thing about all this is there are no alternatives to end up Arctic's, right? Like in terms of affective as we have to solve this problem. Weren't big trouble. You're absolutely right. And this is what's really what he's about this problem? The only alternatives we have off to prevent the infection with vaccines, infection control. What have you? But honestly, we really don't have a substitute about. And no one has figured out that say in fifty years from now, we won't need antibiotics because we have X maybe ex will appear. But right now, no one is able to see through to see what is x really will be. We really don't have a substitute rant about. Now. This is clearly not a game that can be sustained a one that can win by simply innovating to stay ahead, and ideas that can borrow from energy that are helpful and thinking about how we might want to do this in the case of antibiotics. Well now if you think about how. Deal with energy pricing, for instance, with consider emission stacks. Which means we're imposing the cost of pollution on people who actually use that energy. We might consider doing that for Anta -biotics as well. And perhaps that would make sure that antibiotics actually get used appropriately. And certainly consumer education works very often people overuse antibiotics without necessarily prescribed too much without necessarily knowing that they do so and feedback mechanisms have been found to be useful both on energy when you tell someone the using a lot of energy during peak hour, they tend to cut back and the same sort of example has been performed even in the case of antibiotics. Can't stop using about X. It's not an option that is not an option to solve this problem. It has to be about dramatically, reducing how much we use them. It has to be about reducing. How use them changing how we use them being clever about how we use them. So for instance, just imagine if we had a technology which. It was a pill that you ingested with the antibiotic that the minute the antibiotic had done its work in in the site of infection that this within absorb the remaining antibiotics that the antibiotic wasn't running around willy nilly round, your body killing bacteria, and creating resistance that would dramatically reduce the collateral damage that the antibiotic will do. Yeah, I had to take antibiotics for ten days. But after you know, forty eight hours, I felt fine and probably after five days it was gone. You still have to take it for ten days. You know, the history of that is very interesting. The earliest antibiotics will never actually tried out in clinical trials of the kind. We had today because most of antibiotics predate the laws that required the randomized trials so much of what we know about how long at about therapy needs to be is by trial and error that goes back to Abbott exander Lau exam and five days in work for them. So they don't wanna take a chance they said ten fourteen days therapy. That's what you have to go with. And that may be contributing to the problem that we are taking it for too long. Absolutely. Now, you gotta remember here on the one hand the main actor in our society was handing antibiotics is Dr. Yeah, the doctor has about the patient that sitting in front of him or her, and if she sees a patient with some likelihood that the infection may come back and five days or six days if she didn't treat for long enough. Then you know, she just wants to provide an antibiotic for ten days, maybe even fourteen days because that's what protects the patient. That's not what protects restaurant society, but the doctor is not hired to protect the restaurant society. She's there to protect the patient. And that's what she does. With had these technologies to control nature only for the last seventy eighty or one hundred years and essentially in a blink. We have squandered audibility to control because we have not recognized that natural selection pollution was going to find a way to get back, and we need to completely rethink how we're going to use measures to control biological organisms and rethink how we incentivize the development introduction and the case about antibiotics prescription of these valuable resources. Thank you. Ronna lex Minna Ryan, he's a communist who studies the patterns of disease and directs the center for disease dynamics, economics and policy. You can see his entire talk at Ted dot com. Coming up on the show of future without oil. That doesn't have to be like a Mad Max movie. I'm guy Roz, and you're listening to the Ted radio hour from NPR. Hey, everyone just a quick thanks to two of our sponsors who help make this podcast possible. I to each trade. Are you ready to make moves with your money? 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And we tend to think it all started with the Iranian revolution in nineteen seventy nine. But that's not the whole story this week on through line. We'll take you back to four days in nineteen Fifty-three that changed the US Iran relationship forever through line where we go back in time to understand the present. It's the Ted radio hour from NPR. I'm guy Roz on the show today. Finite ideas about preserving what we've got what's left on planet earth in had to make sure we don't lose it. So in south west England, there's a tiny hamlet called tot nece that looks exactly like you would expect a tiny hamlet in southwest England. It looks like to look the center of the town as very beautiful high street with lots of Elizabeth buildings slate hung tool narrow very kind of Italy Piggly beautiful colonnades buildings come out over the street with pillars holding up the buildings and a market square. A river running through the town. You know, like we've got these like restaurants in America called like oldy England that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. So that's Tottenham took. No, thanks to rob Hopkins and environmental activists who lives there. I know there's something that makes time a slightly different. Than other quaint villages in England. Particularly sunshiny like is today. It's always like this. What makes time especial is that the people there are planning for a future where we start to run out of the thing that's made our modern world possible bra actually held up a bottle of it. When he took the Ted stage. This is lead to reveal. This bottle of oil distilled over one hundred million years of geological time. Ancient sunlight contains energy equivalent about five weeks, heart human, manual labor. We can turn it into a dazzling array of materials medicine modern clothing, laptops, a whole range of different things. It gives us an energy return. Unimaginable. Historically, we've based the design of our settlements are business models our transport plans, even the idea of economic growth. Some would argue on the assumption that we will have this impo Pachulia yet when we take a step back and look over the span of history at what we might call the petroleum interval. It's short period in history where we've discovered this extraordinary material and then based hallway of life around. But as we straddle the top of this energy mountain at this stage, we moved from a time where our economic success our sense of individual prowess and wellbeing directly linked how much of this we consume to a time. When actually our degree of oil dependency is our degree of unreality, and it's increasingly clear that we aren't going to be able to rely on the fact that we're going to have this at our disposal forever. So before we get back to what makes timeless different. Here's the reality. We all face over the past decade humans have figured out new ways to extract oil from the earth. That means we have more of it than we've ever had before. And that's made us increasingly complacent about the need to find alternative energy solutions. Even though we know that sooner or later oil will run its course. And that until it does burning that oil for our cars and factories and planes is making climate change worse because every year we've had more slot in more of it in parents parents generation had less of the my parents, my generation move generation of aunt, of course, it's been remarkable. And able to do things that are grandparents could never even dream of. But at the same time when you then come up against a challenge says if you carry on using fossil fuels, and this kind of a way you take humanity out of that ban. Band within which human civilization emerged flourished and did everything that we associate with being human. Which is why it's no coincidence. Rob says that so many of the stories we tell about a world without oil. Are stories about a world without humanity. Like, Wally sorting trash on a humanness planet. Wow. Or other post apocalyptic stories like mad MAC on the one for both living. What intrigues me is? Well, as a society, we find it very easy to produce stuff. Like max all these films about. Society unraveling and everybody teen each other kin zombie robot diseases on the loose, whatever it is. The where are the stories about? How as society came together, we responded with creativity with compassion with Genucel to design away through this to a safe place, the end, okay, aside from the fact that that would make really boring movie, it does unless sound like nice way to build a community, which brings us back to Tottenham that small town in the UK where rob lives, and what happened was that a couple years ago, rob and a bunch of people there looked around and they realize that almost everything they bought or consumed dependent on oil. So they started to ask questions. Do you need to use it to drive solids from one into the country to the other? Do we need business models where chain food businesses at assume that you should be able to walk into one of their restaurants anywhere in the country and the burgers, masala taste exactly the same any time of year. Yes. Maybe use it for friends Celtics medicines for those things that you need, but you don't extracted inside Ethiopia process refined in wherever in Yemen. Take into China maker. It into cheap plastic toy that you then send to the US breaks. A we can ends up in landfill. So to be clear, rob is not suggesting the towns like Tottenham, build a big fence and never let anything in or out or that, you know, Tana will be making laptop computers and frying pans anytime soon. But the idea is that towns like Totten or anywhere really could do a lot more to take advantage of their local resources. So just putting in place new gardens in the town. We have a garden chess game that brings together people who want to grow food with people who have gotten that too busy to elderly to us. So it's like a dating agency bunch and people up together. The last six years we've been planting productive trees was puzzled me that in the last fourteen. We've perfected the art of designing completely useless urban landscapes. So we've planted now about three hundred fruits and nuts trees throughout the town parks. Unloved Chona's have things that promote cycling. We have local currency pound which. Incentivizes people to support local businesses and reconnect them with with the likely comedy of the town, taking only spend that money end Tana. Yeah. So if you go to the next town, it has value to but in the town, it's accepted by ninety trade is now and the notes are much more beautiful than sterling I think any day. So if you were to take this model into the future this model that uses less oil and better for the planet. What does that future? Look like. So when economists talk about this idea the multiplier effects, so if I go shopping in a local shop, and I spend a dollar in in local businesses in a local independent business that leads to two and a half dollars worth of economic benefits in my community, if I shop in a supermarket and leads to one dollar forty worth of economic activity. So for me what it looks like his an economy based on that idea. And yes, designing communities around local resources is not necessarily a new idea. But it is a relatively simple one and ideas that is easily replicated anywhere. So the question I like to to leave you with really is for all aspects of the things that your community needs in order to thrive. How can it be done in such a way that drastically reduces its common emissions while also building resilience? Personally, I feel enormously. Grateful to have lived through the age of cheap oil. I've been astonishingly lucky we've been astonishingly lucky. But let us on a what it is bought us and move forward from this point because if we cling to it and continue to assume that it can underpin choices the future that presents to us is which is really unmanageable and by loving and leaving all that oil has done for us. The oil age is done for us. We are able to them begin the creation of a of a world, which is more resilient more nourishing, and in which we find ourselves fitter more skilled and more connected to each other. Thank you very much. Brad hopkins. His group is called transition network. You can find out more about what they're doing at transition network dot org, and you can see Rob's full talk and Ted dot com. You're listening to the Ted radio hour from NPR guy. Roz were talking about how to use and preserve finite resources on the show today, which few people in all of human history did better than macgyver from that AT show McGovern. Was my end remains my favorite TV action. This is novel. Roger he's an innovation consultants and macgyver fan. You will find themselves in all kind of crazy places, you know, in a prison cell in somewhere in South America org days. Macgyver, think lope, and he will just look around and you will find some resources smoke alarm sheet plywood that for us doesn't look like something to create a solution just might work, but you can do it. That dude made like jet packs of toilet rolls. Yes. Yes. I mean, what I like about this guy is that, you know, unlike GM's, spawning doesn't wear fancy suit he doesn't have a Rolex, James q. Macgyver. Toilet rolls. Exactly. Governor is like, you know, it's a one man show. Is probably such a macgyver enthusiast because he grew up in a place where he had to be resourceful in the city of punditry. India it's a very dry climate. So you don't have much water. An atrocity was in short supply for me. It's like living with less is almost like the norm about eighteen years ago. Not be moved to Silicon Valley, and he started consulting for tech companies and instead of being loud by their innovation. He was baffled by how casually they were wasting basic resources. The one thing that struck me all the time is to see in the evenings all these office buildings being lit up. That's something. I never understood is the nobody working there after six PM. But I just see like. It's all it up the other resource, and I've noticed companies squandering money specifically when it came to research and development, just because you invest more are indeed doesn't make a company no more innovative. Maybe we need to look at a different innovating, maybe innovation. He thought would happen in a more constrained environment. Because when you put a limitation on resources, you remove limitation right on creativity. Because necessarily is the mother of invention now the calls this idea frugal innovation in believes big tech companies could learn from inventors in the developing world, here's his Ted talk for the past seven years higher met and studied hundred of entrepreneurs in India, China Africa and South America, and they keep amazing. Many of them did not go to school. They don't invent stuff in big Ernie labs. The street is the loud why they do that. Because they don't have the kind of basic resources, we take for granted like capital energy and basic services like healthcare education are also scarce in those regions take months project, Patty porter in India. Here's created a fridge made entirely of clay that consumes no electricity. He can keep fruit and vegetables fresh for many days in Africa. If you run out of your cell phone battery, don't panic you'll find some resources entrepreneurs who can recharge your cell phone using the bicycles. Let's go to in Peru a region with high quality and receives one one inch of rainfall. Each year entering college in Lima designed a giant advertising billboard that absorbs air immunity and converts it into purified water generating over ninety liters of water every day that can literally create water out of thin air. In india? We call it God God is a Hindi word that means an improvise fixed clever solution born in adversity. Yeah. I mean in some ways, you're more liberated when you don't have as many resources, I think so because always believed that nothing to lose the sky's the limit. So I think that a lot of companies are awhile stopping averting and die like Kodak right completely the distribution is because they come so risk averse. So that means they have too much to lose. So when you're too much to lose you only take baby steps in terms of discovery of new things. But when you start from the bottom, you have nothing to lose you are like an underdog. So when you are more on the offensive you tend to innovate. I believe that the only way we can sustain growth and for spirit in the west is a learned to do more with less. The good new says that starting to happen several western companies are now adopting ovation to create a photo products for western consumers. Let me give an example in China. The RND engineers of Simmons healthcare have designed a CD scanner that is easy enough to be used by less qualified health workers like, nurses, and technicians. This device can scan more patients on a daily basis, and yet consumes energy, which is great for hospitals. But it's also great for patients because it reduces the cost of treatment by thirty percent and radiation those age by up to sixty percent. This solution was initially designed for the Chinese market. But now it's selling. Hotcakes in US in Europe. Where hospitals are pressured deliver quality care at lower cost. Ultimately, we would like to see developed countries and developing countries come together and co create solutions that benefit entire vanity. So sounds like you're proposing. We completely re imagine the way we make things I would say, yes, absolutely. We have to fundamentally redesign products. Rethink the whole supply chain. My feeling is that what you begin to see is that companies also are now recognizing and research shows, more and more. There is indeed in a way growing awareness among consumers around issues related to the environment. So they also expect companies to behave more environmentally responsible way. So I think it's going to happen. You know, gradual in US, but when I look at Europe or Asia, I actually see lot more aggressive moves by the governments by citizens, and by companies to actually embrace new innovation techniques that are more resources associations as an Indian-born. French national was. The United States. My hope is that can harness the collective ingenuity of innovators from around the world to co create frugal solutions that will improve the quality of life of everyone in the world while preserving our precious planet. Thank you very much. Regio? He's the co author of the books frugal innovation and to God innovation. You can see his entire talk at Ted dot com. Three hundred fifty. And the world just thirty. These are the limits to experience. And. Thing is. Hey, thanks for listening to our show this week on finite resources. If you wanna find out more about who was on at checkout. Ted dot NPR dot org are production staff. At NPR includes Jeff Rodgers Bachman, Megan Kane, Neva grant and some version for. Shkin for with help from Daniel Shchukin. Our intern Sharif Yusef our partners at Ted include Chris Anderson, June Cohen Darren trip and Janet Leigh. I'm guy rise. And you've been listening to ideas worth spreading right here on the Ted radio hour from NPR.

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Cnidariology (CORAL) with Shayle Matsuda

Ologies

1:26:35 hr | 2 years ago

Cnidariology (CORAL) with Shayle Matsuda

"Oh Hey it's your karate teacher who smells like your college sweetheart and so you're weird around them. Alley Ward back with other episode of allergies so this episode was recorded in Beautiful Hawaii her ever heard of it a few weeks ago. You're about to just get had an earful of coral but before I recorded it. Honestly I knew neither Jack Nor shit about coral now. All I wanna do hysteria videos of Carl. Honestly I used to just consider them to be like they're really plucky kind of quirky settings as of a snorkeling John kind of like a like a splashy backdrop knit community theater play like Oh. That's Nice but you know what's happening in front of them. We're kind of fish. Do we have oh country air. After this episode you'll be like move out of the way fish. I'm staring at Polyp Polyp and yet it's totally fine. If you don't WanNA POLYP is we will get to that but I thank you all the folks that support the show at Patriot dot com slash apologies for as little as a dollar a month you can submit questions also thanks to everyone who buys and wears shirts and hats and such from allergies merch Dot Com. We have some new denim dad hats. If you need a new lid that says I like weird facts. Good intentions hit bad puns. It doesn't literally say that I'm just saying that. It's like people will go. Oh that must be what you're into. Although that's not a bad idea for hat stay tuned also thank you to everyone who tells friends coworkers about the show and who rates and subscribes lose reviews which you know I read because I deliver a fresh one each week. This week was a fun one for your old Pal Award Art <hes> I brought attention to the fact that a department store was carrying some Pretty Outta touch and Scientifically Unsound Body Shaming Dinner Wear and it made for some reason international news and it was picked up by some new sites that somehow made this a political issue so I pointed people toward the policy episode with Dr Rene and Gallon to educate people on y body shamed dozen actually promote healthy eating so this led to a rare one-star review from a new curious listener who must have heard about me on Breitbart <hes> Golf Guy Sixty nine sixty nine sixty nine sixty nine sixty nine nine six nine six says Yuck. This podcast claims to be science comedy. I didn't hear either just a bunch of self congratulation -gratulations about not trying to look good sad real. Is this what we want to promote in our society a bunch of slobs. Thank you so much golf guy sixty nine sixty nine sixty nine sixty nine sixty nine nine six nine in six. I appreciate your feedback. This podcast has taught me so much about different perspectives and experiences and I appreciate every single one of you most most of you so they give favor sharing your perspectives. I learned so much it's very much a pleasure to pass that information on and hopefully make the world a little bit more compassionate anyway okay Nydia reality totally a word. It's a well documented legit term. It's the study of animals they're over ten thousand species who have night ascites which are these specialized cells for catching prey and where does this lovely silent continent weird word come from it looks like when your mom tries to weasel a fake term arm into a words with friends play and you're like no way Nazi that's not enough bowels but it comes from the old Latin knee day which means a Nedal and it might also have ties to old Latvian and Lithuanian words meaning to itch into tickle so corals girls are Nigerians. They're underwater animals that poses he's kind of beautiful plant looking things for Mars and they wanted just tickle you to death. I'm already sold. I already love him but let's hear more so I was introduced to this allergist by your favorite to Thala Gist Squid Expert Burt Sarah McNulty Sarah Mac attack on twitter follow her love her and she invited me to tag along on a squid ing trip to Hawaii a research trip she was doing a company called Atlas Obscure was facilitating it. They were awesome. They do wonderful science and history trips. It was a joy Rachel. She let it I love her anyway. One day the group got to take a little boat to coconut island and the very island featured in the opening credits of Gilligan's island and this was once a weird getaway for Hollywood types but now it's a research research station where Grad students tend to marine life we spent the day looking at these gurgling outdoor tanks and watching obey of hammerhead sharks strolling some beechy trails to stations with urchins and sea cucumbers and carry snails sales. They're all being monitored by these wonderful marine biologist there. This Allah just got his bachelor's at U._C.. Santa Cruz double majoring in environmental studies and Feminine Studies got his Master's in biology and ecology evolution in conservation biology energy in San Francisco and is working toward his p._H._d.. Right now at this famed Gates Lab at the University of Hawaii Minoa and the Hawaiian Institute of Marine Biology the gates lab is a coral lab. This dude has his hands full the coral. We're in the middle of a spawning event that very weak but he is amazing took an hour out of his day to come to my hotel and chat about quarrels. I was waiting so excitedly in the lobby and I thought like he was maybe five or ten minutes late which is fine but it turns out we were in the same lobby exactly on time but just perfectly obscured by a pillar so once we figured that out it was all smooth sailing we talked about what coral even is why they're important how he feels about diving what a dead reflex lake the state of some reefs around the world. If it's reef or reeves perhaps the importance of balancing work with being your true self some advice for aspiring worrying biologists adjust how screwed or Carl what movies get it right. What's up with sunscreens what is bleaching and what else can we do to help our hearts squishy pals beneath the sea so anchor down get ready for a wave of coral info with the amazing new dairy geologist's Shale Matsuda aw nine fifty nine shales do here ten? I'm sitting by the cool. He has so little time. I'm just GONNA throw this microphone in his facing leaks start rolling before we even hit the elevators like ten minutes toward the other side the Koran wanting to cry look here's my nieces and you are a knit Areola gist sure we're here. I was thinking about that are coral allergist. Maybe I mean it is our corals Nigeria Nigerians part of what unites all of those animals oils. Is there stinging cells there nights. Oh that's the common thread we must be related. Yes like anemones or jellyfish in quarrels all produce these little stinging cells of the US in defense of prayer capture. I have already I learned about corals. I didn't know that little stinky's and so what exactly is a coral. That's a great question that we think about all the time so corals are animals. I'm first and foremost but the corals meeting of a coral reef corals <hes> they're much more than like some of their parts so the coral animal looks white they've cleared tissues and they secrete a white calcium carbonate skeleton. The reason that when you're snorkeling around coral reef they don't appear white to us is because they have a symbiotic algae which live inside their tissues that provide up to ninety five percent of their daily nutritional needs and the algae's color themselves are what we're looking at when we see corals Oh my God and just like you and me quarrels also have a microbiome they have bacteria that live inside of their tissues also play a lot of really important roles okay so to recap corals are animals and they often have calcium carbonate white eight skeletal structure in squishy skin bag that can be filled with colorful algae and bacteria pals that live under their skin and provide their nutrition so if you pitched that creature in Sifi series people would be like <music> now that's too weird what about just like a short skinnier human with bigger eyes and everyone be like yeah yeah. That's more plausible now. What is with them being a skin back this is this is like the hardest question I know? It's like oh man man like we. We have a term for this. It's called the coral and that is like the coral animal itself. It's a myopic algae. It's bacteria fungi are Kia. There are a lot of different obligate Zimbabweans that these girls have that are critical for their life and function so it's kind of like a a skeleton soupy mix of goodness and then like a little transparent skin over it and the parents can is the animal itself so if just like trees bedroom force if view count the rings of how they are corals actually work the same way where they are constantly secreting this calcium carbonate skeleton in growing and researchers watched you take a core of that's Galata and you can actually count the different layers and get an idea of the age each of quarrels and also what was going on the planet at the time. Oh my gosh is it similar to treason that <hes> there's a ring for every year of growth because of seasons or is that different <hes> it's kind of like seasons in the ocean different corals will grow at different rates so kind of like different plants as well in a nutshell as a quarrel begins to grow and keeps putting down these these layers of calcium carbonate. We can use things like carbon dating to get idea of like what was happening in the atmosphere in the oceans at those times so again it gives us a geologic history of what was happening in these environments so when you see let's say a coral out of the ocean in it's like a piece on a number one. It's not a happy coral but when you you see like a decorative coral. Are you seeing essentially just at skeleton but when we say coral reef quarrels they're a particular type of a group of quarrels that that live in the shallow waters that <hes> you you know how these ellison my aunts that reliant photosynthesis to get their food but corals are really large group of organisms and they we have deep sea corals that don't have these symbiosis that just feed terrifically by eating dinner things in the water in a lot of corals the Ken have pigments and their skeletons do <unk> pigments of their own until like black quarrels you know read corals was things that you see see in the stores like that's still the skeleton but those are the organisms themselves she should have pulled out of the ocean which we should leave. Even the ocean <unk> now are those getting harvested just for decorative purposes very often on. There's a lot of protections in different places about corals <hes> but it's not not everywhere okay suicide note. Some figures have estimated upwards words of two hundred million dollars. Annually worth of coral is poached from the oceans for things like jewelry and decor and in some places just taking a coral skeleton bit from the beach is illegal so if you're gonNA get arrested rested on a beach do something else have better story you know so maybe don't have coral decorations yeah okay but what you can have. Is that where technology increases where we're doing a lot of work with like thirty imaging go home you you go to museum or you know Tech Place and get a coral printed that in your house Meyer them in a in a way that's a replica. Yeah absolutely makes just beautiful right you can. I'm sure you can even cast the plaster Paris in their fixed it P._S.. Yes I did look it up and there are hollow coral shaped molds you can pour plaster Paris in them and it just seems more convenient than getting yourself to an ocean and then out of jail and now how long have you been studying corals. I've been studying corals formerly for four years during this degree but I've been interested in quarrels for for much longer have studied corals as a volunteer researcher at the California Academy Sciences on expeditions and volunteer expeditions actually kind of like else obscure. Oh come as a younger person and were you always maybe drawn to the see where you always like an aquatic person. That's a good question too so I grew up just outside of Chicago where even though I felt like I was growing up in a body of Water Lake Michigan. You know it's not a marine in environments freshwater environment so it looks like I wasn't growing up swimming on coral reefs but for me you know looking back I my first taste of the ocean was growing up and going to the shed aquarium seeing all the exhibits there anything that's beverly common thread that you here for a lot of us who pursued degrees in marine biology that most of us the United States aren't lucky enough to grow up on coral reef and so a lot of our first exposures to this you know especially those of us before like the Youtube Youtube era and whatnot was going to our local aquariums in really seeing these organisms that you don't even read about notion if you're wondering where are corals I asked corals dot org and it said essentially around the equator plus where currents flow out of the Tropics in Florida and southern Japan. It's a little bit warmer they make up point two percent of the ocean floor but their home to this blew my mind twenty five percent of marine life what so if see animals were like the cool who'll kids the coral reefs would be like the mall if this were a movie from the eighties and so was there. was there a moment like at the aquarium where you thought I would love to do that in life. It's interesting. I'm GonNa give maybe my journey story and you can like hack this up dirty stories a journey story okay. Let's get to know shales science background satellite so I had one of those moments where like I I was always drawn to nature to being outside playing outside. I was like video game. Kid wanted to get money kid but when I got to college I want to different science route. I studied water policy and sustainable organic farming and that was something that I was like really into and really excited about and I never I just like marine biology wasn't I thought I could really do and I ended up actually pursuing a different path my ida duel degree and Environmental Science and women's studies and and kind of went the second route and kind of worked with Youth in nature in underserved underserved communities and I gotta got to this point a little bit later twenties. I decided to quit my job and my house <music> sell all my stuff and travel in figure that out and something that happened for me on that trip. I finally decided to learn scuba dive. I'm really claustrophobic person so I kind of put that off for awhile and I really explicitly remember you know that first time I descended into the water and this was in Thailand and I remember like being so overwhelmed with how beautiful all the corals were in how this environment like different than just snorkeling just like opened up a really really three-dimensional dynamic way and then also remember seeing a lot of garbage on the reef too and so as having a lot of of having push pull moments of being like so overwhelmed with the beauty around me so curious about what these ah animals were what what you know. What is this environment that I'm in looking everything but also being you're really struck by how polluted it was as well from there basically went? I want to make sure that was right. Choice so by apply to you a little Internet cafes applying to you these like coral reef monitoring like volunteer ships just to like learn a little bit more make sure this is the like big life switch. I was ready to make and I joined one that was in the Yucatan Mexico I went out and lived for three months and learnt identify all species of coral out there and we participated in monitoring transacts that were then used by local NGOs to compare the protected sites that they had gotten protection for versus the sites that weren't and so in that experience really kind of solidified I that I moved back to San Francisco. I went to city college to make up some coursework that I hadn't done the first time I was volunteering a diver aquarium to get more hands on experience started volunteering in research lab at the California Academy of Sciences and and then I was bartending to pay the bills and in from there I realized that you know being being at a museum was such a exciting place because you've got researchers studying everything right. You've got that you've got tourists in the community folks from the neighbor who are like right upstairs that you can just go upstairs in talk to you about like all the really cool things that we're working on and then moving on from there to my to my p._H._d.. where I am now <hes> was as you know I I was at that point? I was pretty much sold so I have never been yet snorkeling in an alive ref- you gotTa do that here. What is that like? I mean you do that for your job and also as a passion like what is it like to be underwater like that. It's so beautiful yeah it's so beautiful <hes> corals coming like all shapes and sizes and just like you have your favorite city or your favorite. You know the nature trail you like to walk on every reef is going to be a little bit different. They have huge structures in these squirrels will have these these big branching corals <unk> local close when you see their their homes to all these kinds of animals like the more the more structure structure you have in your in the ecosystem the more different types of organisms. You're GONNA see when you're down there in. It's just it's it's so exciting. There's so much to see Yucky. You'll see your turtle in your shark every once in a while to really exciting but for me it's Kennedy swimming up to one kind of coral in just like stereo in her while and then things will start to come out. You'll see like crabs that live inside the coral. You'll see snapping shrimp. Some you'll see eels or octopus and just like it is like you can almost like a metropolis in the ocean and full of diverse cast of players when you're doing research. Is it ever difficult for you to say okay all right. We're done where get out of the water. Are you like one more absolutely see you know and sometimes you forget like there've been times when I you know since I work on quarrels and working on an experiment right now where focusing individual coral colonies I can be like upside down in the reef for like an hour at a time to staring at this one quarrel and then we'll come to the surface simple like how did you see that shark that went by before. What are you talking about so it's always still really nice to go out when you're not working into? The appreciate didn't know how lucky we are to be able to see these environments. You know I've worked with researchers who I'll go to a coral reef and I'll say this is beautiful could all the diversity here and they'll be like you should see twenty years ago. They're seeing the these changes at that such rapid pace that we're witnessing them in our lifetimes and that's that's new yeah so it has shale working on in terms of protecting these bony soupy squishy mysterious gorgeous. They'll creditors what were working on our lab. Groups working on is really a whole wide range of questions but we're really curious about what's going to happen to corals under these future climate conditions and what can we do intervene to give them a better chance of surviving. I'm trying to set up. I WANNA go broad or like my stuff. Let's go broad a little bit just because people don't know shit about corals that's true but they're the coolest animals yes. The corals are all across species all really really different. That's something that makes them super exciting and interesting but makes it also a lot harder to come up with like strategies to help them survive because they reproduce differently. You know some will brewed releasing coral R._V.. into the water. Some will spawn releasing coral gammy. It's exit sperm into the water. Some have our large grow in these really big shape some very small even single polyps corals also and so in a heavy different life strategies. There's other so different they associate with different types of these Symbionese <hes> and so what really interested in is doing is seeing if you know are there types of interventions that we can kind of scale up that managers and conservationists all around the world who work with these different quarrels these different coral reef environments all widely different can can use are like Kenya signals for what might happen in the future or to us to kind of help. Hope goes corals that are that are out there survive. Some stuff that we're working on in the lab is looking at like. Can we expose corals to nonlethal stressors to condition them to them be put out in the region. If they experienced these higher temperatures downstream will the initial exposure help them survive. What is coral bleaching? You're asking I get it. We're GONNA explain that in a second I got you and with coral bleaching. What's really hard about that? Is this whole balance of how hot in for how long so if there's like a really short high temperature spike how does that affect these organisms versus. If this is more of a prolonged only degree or to above that thermal maximum they have how does that affect if they're gonNA bleach the severity of that bleaching and then also their ability to recover afterwards so we haven't really talked about like what coral bleaching is yeah. I know like okay make any sense yet on Coral C._E._o.. How these these symbiotic algae that are obligate that means the required for the coral live they provide Ni- up to ninety five percent of their daily nutritional needs and everything thing when the temperatures are good? Everything's happy you know get what they need. The symbolic Dany but when the temperature rises said just even slightly above that thermal maximum that the cross can handle the corals are starting to stress out and one of their stress responses to expel these algae kind of how we get sick. We'll get a fever and that's good. It's it's our bodies way of helping protect us but if that fewer gets too high or too long that can actually be detrimental ties in the same thing's true with coral bleaching so as the corals are <unk> purging out these Algal Zimbabweans. It's just all the time like you can watch a quarrel start to Pale losing its color right because as the SAMOANS lance leave that white skeletons showing through and then <hes> as it's happening longer goes on the corals aren't getting the energy in they can begin to starve okay so under temperature stressors corals toss their internal friends and they bleach because they lose that color so there are dead but they're certainly weaker and their endanger it is not cute and what you'll see. If you go into to coral reef winces happening. If you see these quarrels that are white you're seeing skeleton through the tissue but the tissue still there the corals quarrels are still alive and if that stressor leaves have a chance to recover those symbolic communities can proliferate again in the corals Laurie pigment and be okay but if that's dresser goes on too long <hes> the corals Condi- we've seen this happen a massive scales on a reef and once the corals die you'll start to see macro algae growing on top of them and that's when you know the the structure of the reef environment will start to to really breakdown and also some corals aren't aren't bleaching some individuals I they can Kinda Way Bay during the two thousand Fourteen Twenty fifteen bleaching events that we had there'd be to quarrels the exact same species right next to each other touching on the reef and one of them would be bleached in one of them would be visibly totally normal and so we're really really <hes> trying to understand like you know what is it about that. Corals like genetic makeup or semi in communities that is allowing these calls to perform a lot better and so when you're looking at say two different examples of coral the next there are those different individuals genetically are those different groups of a bunch of individuals when you're looking at a fan of coral. How many people are you looking at that are coral? Yes good question so coral colony is is a coral of coral polyps. What is polyp while it's a squishy little bugger with a feathery head and it secretes calcium carbonate at its base to anchor it on a surface kind of like a cup holder filled with one of those gas station can win? sock dancers only made out of Jello salad also as long as this train has to stop into Polyp Ville it comes from the words polly many and P meeing foot so polly and in old Latin it meant cuttlefish fish. I personally tend to associate polyps with bad news about Coghlan's and that's because polyp is a little intestinal dingle dangle that can grow and if not checked it can turn into a tumor so get checked okay. Let's go out of our butts in back into the ocean now. What is a polyp ourselves? You look a little mouth kind of like if you took an emmy that Kinda structure mouth middle tentacles on the outside and as a quarrel grows it buds off in creates a genetically identical polyp as polyps polyps continue to multiply and spread and grow. You've got a coral colony that is made up of polyps at one genetic individual. Do you think that that's all the same person or do you think it's a person and a bunch of clones hard question. I understand that are corals nonperson tier but no yeah yeah yeah definitely in. That's that's a hard question in back she people in the lab. We're looking at that to like what life stage are corals able to fuse together and share resources or not do some species do this this more than others so there's definitely really good question. Okay good but we don't totally know the answers that all you can't look at one that's three or four genetic like genetically distinct individuals sometimes when they do grow up next to each other can see kind of a scar between colonies where one individual ends in the next one begins or also like we're also seeing evidence of of fusion and how much do you think research has changed in the last five or ten years with D._N._A.. Sequencing in how much cheaper faster that's gotten so much that's cool. It's really exciting time to be a biologist right now. In asking questions that we couldn't afford to ask before the technology analogy to ask before on these really large scales and now what about their their stickiness their little stinker stingers. How is that helping them survive or thwart predators or are there predators to coral other than just human mantles of course don't have <hes> a lot of predators? There's a lot of fish that will probably heard a parrot fish that will I'll try to like eat the macro algae around coral sometimes they will nibble the coral too but for the most part there's not a lot of animals coming towards them to eat them in that sense <hes> they the user stinging cells a lot to to impre capture so if you see if <unk> long enough under the scope and you know if you've piece of plankton swims up you'll you'll see it almost like venusfly chapel. You'll see the plankton get stuck to the coral tentacles and then the coral tentacles oh pull it into its mouth and sucking digested. It's really neat to watch so but those stinging cells touch coral would you shouldn't do it will try to sting youtube are skinner's too thick but you know other animals like Portuguese man bore for example there. There are stinging cells that can affect us too but corals are pretty safe. Don't touch them but shale says that one thing that changed in his academic lifetime is that gene sequencing technology has improved vastly so they're able to get hundreds thousands of millions of reads getting a much better idea what bacterial communities associated with corals just imagine you're haircut six or seven years ago like Yikes right just imagine what eighteen sequencing thinks of its T._T.'s celibacy and what this will do that can go out there and take a really small tissue sample extracted d._N._A.. Sequence the D._N._A.. Get back like you know ten twenty thousand reads of all these different organisms that we were able to amplify and from that I can see you know who is there. Who is it getting what the federal functions of these organisms behind like how important might that be to the health in survival of a coral a lot added bacteria like you know bacteria of different different roles like in us like your skin bacteria is gonna be different than your gut bacteria? You don't want those to mix in like quarrels have bacteria that help in the defense in nutrient cycling things like that so we're interested in like what what what those are doing there and we can get away but idea what's going on now than we could have ten fifteen years ago in what do you think is the biggest coral bummer for the coral. Would it be a rising temperature or ocean. Acidification pollution like is there. What's their big? <hes> what's their big sad trombone. So corals are dealing with a lot of threats right now <hes> the biggest one being the impacts of climate change and we're seeing this unreal today at inform a sea surface temperature warming in ocean acidification as you mentioned and what why why this is so bad is that we're seeing an increase even in our lifetimes of these massive coral bleaching events worldwide and a coral bleaching event can can wipe out entire reef ecosystems in one season overseeing them. Not only you know it's. It's not just a one off anymore in here why we've had we had the event in twenty fourteen again in two thousand fifteen the Great Barrier Reef has also experienced successive events and so while you know we're seeing corals that are able to survive one round of this warming and recover so you keep on hitting them. What is that affecting like? We've got research groups at the Weinstein Marine biology who are looking at like how does how does the reproduction <hes> affected by by these events like are we gonna see more downstream things that are happening happening and you add things like the local stressors like overfishing or sedimentation pollution runoff from a lot of the local environments that are there at those kind of the the added pressures that that corals are facing and it's yes it is so like is so good in so important to you to mitigate some of these local stressors right like diverting pollution sedimentation really important like a coral can't live if it's covered sediment quick aside what is up with sediments well. Apparently it's been long known that sediments and coral they are not happy. Roommates sailors would know that they could enter a freshwater river because that's when the raise what stopped because the sediment in their outflows would kill the coral so why can't coral deal with a little river dust or erosion or storms caused by weather events or say to nominees so in a paper titled Mechanisms of damage to corals exposed to sedimentation researchers say that settlement blocks sunlight which means that they're photosynthetic inner algae bunnies get blocked so there goes there nutrient and energy source now. If there's also organic material in the sediment it tends to hog on the nearby oxygen in the water and then those byproducts lower the Ph and then other organic compounds in the sediment get digested they released toxic hydrogen sulfide so the sediment covered Coral Condi- in twenty four hours it can happen really they quickly okay so even though coral is an animal just like imagine a favorite house plant and then imagine coating it in a heavy spray paint and dipping it in an acid bath and then pumping poison in the room here plant would be like wow. Can you not the most important thing that we need to address if you want quarrels in the future is climate change and why are coral reefs important also is it reefs or is it reeves. Is it raves. I like reeves. It was like goes I like that. I haven't heard that actually say reason. I know that's not puts her feet. You know I've asked an expert in it's not raves listen if elves had hooves the second half of their lives with A._B.. Tall enough to reach the shelves when they kept their knives to get up loaves of bread or with their wives have to put on the scarves their knitting ticket them themselves so why are reaps important why do we why do we want to save the reeves other than their fucking gorgeous and awesome and fish live there but clearly they are important yeah eh there yes all of that. They're really important in really important for a lot of different reasons are really personal to too many people but also than on a community in the national international skills while so you know having a coral reef environment is there one of the most bow diverse ecosystems in the world there a bank for biodiversity and within that you know the coral reefs themselves are are the breeding grounds in homes for tons of marine life got animals that will come in from the deep oceans to to breed <hes> fish is really important food resource for a lot of coastal communities. It's their main source of protein main source burden for many people in the world and the grief environments where a lot of those larger game fish reproduce comeback to coral reefs in a lot of our coastal ecosystems are important for meditate mutate mitigating coastal damage. You've got the day absorb a lot of that. Wave Action Wave Power. That's coming in. We've all seen a really awful things that have been helping out of our coastal communities around the world because of you know flooding and we will coastal erosion and things like that shale stresses that he doesn't like to focus too much on the potential pharmaceutical benefits of nature because there are other intrinsic reasons for conservation but you know a big something that we're learning more and more about the ocean in general is that there's a lot of these chemicals out there that can be used to help humans and so for me like one of the most exciting moments that ahead actually during my master's degree I studied sea slugs new ranks engineering that time was I was like in my advisor's office looking through some papers N._F._l.. This paper where one of the the slugged I study really cool animals. They will eat things like sponges in order for organisms that produce toxic chemical compounds and they will slightly alter them when they eat them and they'll put them in their own tissues and use them to fend off their own predators really cool. I did a little digging and for more information on this you might WanNa dip into a just a light beach read entitled quote Selective Toxicity of a Persian Gulf Sea Cucumber Hall Arabia Parv on Human Chronic lymphocytic leukemia by B lymphocytes by direct Monaco unreal targeting okay spoiler alert. I'm GonNa let Shale tell you the plot of the paper cheaper but these toxins are like anti microbial antiviral also can be used in medical biomedical research that that benefits humans oh so I'm looking through this box of papers and found this paper and I'm like Oh my gosh I like call my mom and I'm like my mom and I'm like mom like guess what like there's this new break that they're studying that they're using to see if they can treat the adult form of cancer that had as a kid which is like mind-blowing to me. Wait what like this organism that I didn't think I was going to study. <hes> and I don't study pharmaceutical things or anything like that but just that like this kind of a group of animals that I didn't know much about before could actually have such a personal impact on me and there's like tons of things out out there that we haven't discovered yet. Oh my God what kind of cancer with that childhood leukemia. I God wild right so it's like I was like it's all came full circle on but it's those kind of moments where they're the reasons to protect coral reefs. We don't even know all the reasons yet right in. Are we gonNA lose these opportunities because of like you know it's because we don't know better but it's because we're not ready. Politicians aren't ready. It's not for a lack of science. I should say that we're not making these big changes but I've hopeful that we're getting their marketing in the right direction. Do you think having had that experience with cancers. Kid change the way you approached what you wanted to do in life and dollar uh-huh yeah not in the way you'd expect growth and want to be DR typical narrative that people ascribe to childhood cancer survivors for me what was heart. I think the May the way that it affected me the most in my personality is that I for very early age didn't have this idea of all. The time in the world was like I want to do something after you now and so I was from a very early age I was very for better for worse like everything that I want to happen gas to have a resulted in me being very driven human being but then at the same time it also you know causes a lot of anxiety in and pressure and I think that <hes> got me really curious about science about answering questions in about the fact that you know like Oh man this story too so we came is a really interesting thing because for will centuries and whatnot of studying something. We didn't know what caused it. There's a lot of hypotheses out there that have talked about you know could be an environmental thing whatnot and it was only very recently that a paper came out with this new hypothesis that it was kind of like a combination of things like genetic thing like <unk> predisposition and then also the hypothesis that babies who were not exposed to like the right bacteria in their first year of life life were more prone to this and so that that was like super interesting because a lot of bacteria like another big thing in my research today. There's a lot of work like coral probiotics like <unk>. I'm studying bacteria's their other. Other groups are working in like. Can we take becker that we know is helping quarrel survive in like inoculate them with that at early age and then we'll that help them down line so this whole idea that you maybe we could prevent childhood leukaemia by creating a probiotic cocktail for babies and then all of a sudden kimmy solve help mitigate coral diseases whilst creating a probiotic like there's the amount of knowledge regaining about bacteria just in general right now just been like a huge a huge each driver for knowledge right and the notion that it's not just one necessarily species you're studying but it's interaction with several species that almost makes it able to survive in adapt shale says at some quarrels even need booth bacteria Syria and certain viruses present to survive these thermal events so the symbiotic connections go deep. They get complicated kind of like a group of adults who've been friends since college just like a girls weekend without Steph things that a coral party ready just aren't the same without both bacteria and viruses. The ocean is full of different things in you know we're looking at like a lot of these interactions like how many partners need to be played. Get this result or to prevent something from happening. It's it's a really exciting time to be studying like all of this stuff so home to twenty five percent of the world's marine species potentially home to a cure for cancer weird interesting alien like live sculptures full of other beings and it also also our new coral is just playing really pretty a nice to look at so there's that factor shale explains and they're also really important for for tourism in the economy and that's also a really great way to switch our way that we think about it like our our economy is deal extracting from the reef damaging the reef we can actually like do you know eco-friendly friendly tourism bring people educate people see to see the reef in you know it's hard to find an appreciation for something that you could never seen before we can all kind of relate to that and we all of his moments where like you know you saw something for the first time <hes> even any any place in nature who can have those moments but that's really important also and especially here in Hawaii the coral reef systems are incredibly important culturally and end. There's a lot of history. There's a lot of stories. A lot of history wrapped up in these these ecosystems. It's the there's a lot of reasons to protect them and with eighty five percent of the U._S.. Coral reefs surrounding Hawaii there's also really been cultural necessity of protecting and preserving those ecosystems and there's a piece called pook Masahiko the significance of corals in Hawaiian culture in its featured in the book ethno biology of corals. In coral reefs with enough reefs fine and the lead author of it Tony Makoni Greg writes quote Hawaiian people consider coral to be an a coup something that provides birth and death to both people and islands and possesses as much mana which is the essence of spirituality corals are considered the beginning of life and are thus the most ancient ancestors all living things in Hawaii and that's something that shale seems to approach with a lot of reverence. He seems seems to have a lot of empathy which may be from feeling conscious of Ping Pong in between a few science subjects before he landed on reefs but also he plays through Grad school with challenges that most of us don't face not only. Did I not have a a direct like go to Undergrad. Go to your masters or go straight to your P._H._d.. Kind of experience but I'd experienced also a lot of <hes> the obstacles in challenges that you know folks who don't typically see themselves in in science <hes> face as well and that's not something that you would necessarily get from looking at me today and for me. I experienced a lot of sexism when I was younger so I didn't transition until I was just is until my master's program and so I had the experience of being a woman in science for Mike my entire coming into science and you know in high school I was put on like the not the honor science track and took me while realize that this is something that happened. Those experiences in particular really came to head for me when I showed up at my p._H._d.. Program I am like well into my medical transition and all of a sudden had access to like conversations in space where people really Kinda let you know what they really think in ways that I didn't before and those you know it's this has been a very interesting experience to see on the other side. You know really a lot of the things that I thought were happening the old ways of thinking in kind of the gatekeepers for a lot of opportunities in stem from from this point of view and so I think that like the taking a longer time in your journeys it's very typical for folks from many underrepresented backgrounds in sciences especially especially after decades centuries of being excluded Ali from science careers but also you know science research medical industries a great example of that yes P._S.. Side note I had heard that women weren't included in some medical research which trials but I didn't know how big a deal or how recent this was like cell phones existed by the time law called the National Institutes of Health Revitalization Act of Nineteen ninety-three past stating that the director of N._I._H.. Shall ensure that a women are included as subjects in each project of such research and that be members of minority groups are included in such research. A twenty sixteen article in Pharmacy Practice said that when studying diseases is prevalent in both sexes males frequently of the Caucasian race were considered to be the norm study population and that was a direct quote from a journal Article there but P._S.. Has Up. I didn't know this until this past year but the word Caucasian has super racist origins. It's no longer widely used so scrap that white works and nearly twenty years ago the Institute of Medicine clarified and made a really important distinction between sex gender gender being the self representation social and cultural views of sex so if anyone ever tells you that they know your gender based on your body tell them it sciences that is hogwash. Thank you very much. Also Shale says that having a mentor you trust and respect is so important he had situations that called for allies like like preparing for fieldwork in countries where certain identities could put you at risk or navigating passport issues. Just things at some of US might really take for granted because it's really hard to be alone in struggling united say like for me like the hardest things have been you know personal in this journey as opposed to Disci- is hard but I have lots of people talk to you about my experiments and so like I think that like you know besides all the like systemic things that we need to do to help make stem actually more <hes> inclusive <hes> we need to find our communities in like lift each Europe sense. Do you find that maybe underrepresented Folkston to have a little bit more imposter syndrome. Oh Yeah Yeah Imposter Syndrome Yeah uh-huh. Yes definitely <hes> an sometimes you you. You see it like it's very obvious you're like Oh. I know like you walk into a room and like I feel like every person of color probably every woman folly every l._G._B._T._Q.. Person when you walk into into room whether it's like a new class or a conference you kind of around the room for your allies until my back here and I think that you know so there's these foster syndrome has never like it's <unk> standalone feeling you know it's it's built up over you know <hes> over so much. That's going on in the world like you. Are The people like you that you have as role models D. C.. People are your interest of your communities being addressed in societal. It'll science. Did you end up at a lab that you felt you had a little bit more community and also you work on coconut island which is a beautiful place in Hawaii. I mean it's also this little isolated pockets of marine science how did you how did you end up there. And what was your feeling when you when you found that you'd be researching their question so I don't actually applied to one program you did H._D.. That's great and and one hundred percent I applied because I wanted to work with Dr With Gates who's a excellent core biologist and also someone who really valued science communication and connecting to communities in the public publican inspiring people to care so deeply about reefs and those are two things that were very very important to me. I also really want it was very important to me to work in a large collaborative lab where there's a lot of collaborative work in a lot of sharing ideas support and also in a place where I would feel safe and safe means you know access to save healthcare on finding community on the islands a university or a place that actually actually has <unk> anti discrimination policies in place. There's a lot of places that don't have a lot of friends who are part of universities that you know are in places that you can be thrown in jail freezing wrong restroom wrong rate quotes and then we've seen a lot of issue some really great responser on that from like the scientific community canceling conferences in areas that are putting up these discriminatory policies and things like that and that's wonderful like the U._C.. System is has done a lot of actually really great work in that sense by saying you're funding travel to these places. One Professional Mentor who meant so much to shale was Dr Ruth Gates of the Gates Corre lab. He's at now and she was a veteran coral biologist. She apparently had such zeal for her work. She passed away just this past October at age fifty six of cancer and when we went and toward the labs in Hawaii Ruth's name was brought up a lot and you can tell that she's dearly dearly missed but it seems like he ended up in the right place Oh and and and also before patron questions. It's a big day for you because they started spawning last night. What did they spun? It Spun Palooza right now it is it. Is something really amazing about corals. There's not enough amazing. Stuff is is corresponding events so corals right. You're sedentary animal. You're not moving around to find your mates. How the ocean? How are you going to reproduce Bruce? You know besides fragmenting off into the way it works is combination of cues. It's the moon cycle on your own from the planet star. It's the temperature it's like the pressure in the environment that that will all come together and q the corals to release their games into the water column and for the coral species that we studied the rice squirrel MONTO per capita out here in lab day spun two to three months during the summer on the night of the new moon and a few nights after van if you're lucky enough to be out in the bay you Kinda appear over at around eight forty five P._M.. <HES> and you'll start to see these little cream-colored bundles slowly floating to the surface of the the size of a pinhead little and a really big night like the entire surface will be like covering these little white dots after about like half an hour the wave action will cause them to burst their little tiny eggs inside will float and sperm will start to sink zinc and you know in the next day or so they'll be swimming coral larvae these little itty bitty jelly beans and then those larvae will then you know swim around look for some suitable substrate to metamorphose into the first polyp which will hopefully grow into too many of to form the next colony. We didn't get a lot of spawning in June. Usually we see June July August and since agency a lot in June without you know maybe this'll be our big month and so going out of last night. We decided to take a quick look on the bay we saw there was a pretty big event so that kind of being a coral biologist you have to be kind of ready to respond to whatever is going to happen so we kinda changed. Our plans will will go out and see all we can do and this is a great time for us because a lot of the questions we surly life stages. We can only ask during the summer months none so right now. This is a really exciting for us to Goliath genetic diversity and to run some of these pre conditioning tests to see you know if you call them down to beat them up with second due to their <music> settlement or survivorship so you can get a scoop up in and run them in tubs in the lab and see how they respond best. Yeah yeah the technology that we use for D._N._A.. Sequencing is like one end of the spectrum and then on the ground in the lab is is very like D._i._y.. Grab some buckets Homey we make these big scoops out of like this plastic shoe boxes where he cut like windows in hot glue on Mesh kind of use those to scuba the bundles have carefully put them into little containers. Will they do fertilization in oftentimes. We'll even leave him to sit overnight in buckets see then then carefully clean them out the next morning but a lot of our tools are stuff stuff that we just come up with fly to to us. They sell coral spotting supply kits. There's a lot of Home Depot Five Gallon Bucket area of buckets everywhere then you yeah absolutely oh my God showed a blog posts last June about corresponding and in it he describes setting out on the night of the new moon with life jackets and a first aid kit and headlamps they use red lights so they don't interfere with any lunar accused for the coral and they have as many two and a half gallon buckets as will fit on the floor of a small whaleboat and he says in it or tools or not glamorous but they get the job done and there are photos of these milky trails of coral bundles popping to release eggs into the water and a glimpse of what field research looks looks like so for more of that. I'm in a link the post in the show notes and on my website now we're about to ask your picture on questions but before we do a few words from sponsors of the show the sponsors make it possible for allergies to donate to charity of each just choosing choosing and this week Shell pick to the first one is pay. Oh Hey it's a private nonprofit organization caring for an ancient Hawaiian fishpond located on Oahu and its vision is to perpetuate a foundation of cultural sustainability and to provide intellectual and physical spiritual sustenance for their community. This fishpond serves as a place of learning to we've ancestral knowledge together with Western ways of knowing to achieve their goals and a second donation went to Point Foundation Asian and Point Foundation Dot O._R._G.. Is The nation's largest scholarship granting organization for L._G._B._T._Q.. Plus Students of Merit and point promotes change through scholarship funding mentorship leadership development and community service is training and links to both those charities and to our sponsors who make that possible will be in the show notes okay some things. I'm liking this week when we sleep well science shows if you've listened to this analogy episode you notice that we're more focused were more relaxed. Festival all were happier. Fewer people ask us why we're so sad looking and that is why allergies is partnering with Com- Com- is the number one APP for sleep. Do you know that did you know that sleep. 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Oh Ky Ko Kiko has my whole heart they create the super cool hands on projects for kids that make learning about steam science technology engineering arts and math superfund so you get a Kiko subscription and then each month the kid in your life will receive this fun engaging new project which will help develop their creativity and confidence. They're designed into spark tinkering which is so important so all the projects and inspiration and activities are created by this team of product designers in house in Mountainview California. They rigorously test them on kids to make sure they're cool enough. Every crate includes all the supplies is needed for months project and then this is awesome they also have obviously these detailed easy to follow instructions but being included educational magazine so that you can learn more about each crates theme go on the website it Kiko Co dot com. Just go look at it and see other projects. I swear you're GonNa want them for yourself. But also it's so hard to choose your first one. They have things like vortex labs and glow in the dark slime Unicorn costumes and could build your own speaker. You can learn about belying just go on Kiko Dot com see what I mean and they're offering allergies listeners because they love you a chance to try them for free so you can redeem the offer go learn more about their projects. They have them for kids of all ages really teeny all the way through high school you can visit Kiko Dot com slash apologies. That's Kiko Dot com slash apologies. It's going to be harder for yourself. Okay your questions. Now I question we got from Laura Koerppens and a bunch of other folks including Jessica Efforts Jennifer Alvarez caitlyn Fitzgerald Jenna Martyn Ira Gray Jessica are Nikki to go to heroin in Crystal Mendoza Tougher Heinous Casey Kaiser Lauren coupons and Jesse Scott asked how harmful is sunscreen to coral is a big question how harmful or what does it do. It's it's oxy. Benza nate's certain non-chemical on chemical <unk> non mineral sunscreens. It's the question is questions like people definitely seen movements in different coastal communities to ban unsafe sunscreen and like this. This is a field research that is beginning to grow the new thing that we're seeing. It's like really important to consider these kinds like stressors. These daily things that we're doing that may not be harmful to reefs right considering what sunscreen you used to say. Considering any type of chemicals at your inducing introducing to natural environment is a really important thing however where you know a lot of what what we are concerned about is that you know in the grand scheme of the impacts facing quarrels it is a very small drop in the bucket compared to climate change and that can be a really. That's always a really hard thing. We're still like the research is ongoing with a cow bad. These chemicals are the effects that they have but what we the the the danger is when that's where we stop right like considering your sunscreen choice is a really great point of departure you know same thing with like plastic strawberries and things like that for people who might not consider how daily actions affect coral the reefs to begin to learn more until they understand what you know our my actions affecting the reefs. What else can I do into kind of figure out what it is that each of us are doing every day right that affects the planet but if that's stopping point that's a really dangerous thing because you know just changing your sunscreen is not gonNA slow down our loss of reefs? Afterwards Shale sent me a link to a piece written just a few weeks ago by two coral scientists in Florida who said that people are being led to believe that there's extensive scientific evidence about about the impact of Oxy Benzon corals and is simply not true so it went on to cite three main factors that are actually killing coral climate change their biological changes like diseases and invasive species overfishing and the overfishing our fishing depletes the fish that eat the algae that overgrown corals. There's also water quality issues like wastewater and land run off the dump those pollutants and sediments into the reefs so everyone right sent don't just change for mineral sunscreen be like that Yeah Lemme so okay I got permission to tell this part of that story okay and like an example of that is a colleague of mine recently went into a local classroom to talk about quarrels research we do and and she asks the students like what was the biggest threat facing quarrels and everybody said Sunscreen and you know that's a re that is like Ono moment and she actually spoke was on the teachers and they're like we had no idea like this is what people have been telling us what been telling for students and that's and that's where you know that that's not that's not good. You know it's it's it can be. It's a great way to get people to understand that <hes> you know small actions of take every day can have really big impacts. However you know in no way is like we have to focus on climate change? This next question was asked by listener who started making these beautiful paintings inspired by episodes so to see them you can check out the allergies instagram and then follow her too because she is wonderful. Maria hancocks wants to know how excited are you. Pantheon's color of the year is coral super excited anytime that corals can go you know making into social media get across people's radar like why is that you know. Do I want to learn more. It's really great because. There's a lot of animals in the world that are endangered right like corals are part of why corals are such a great you know organism to talk about. These kinds of things is that they're gorgeous. You know it's a having having companies celebrate. Coral bring attention to coral is always greatly appreciated in really exciting. I know that it was Pantheon's color. The ear always excited <hes> you know also side note huge ups to Pantalone for naming the color not just coral but living coral alive non-debt non bleach thriving magical quarrels too long but living coral works seretary asked what it makes them so colorful is it that symbiosis yes so very often most. There's everything I'm saying and every choral thing like accepting this other thing. Does something totally different. We expect yes in general like the <hes> are these bats. However quarrels also do produce their own colorful pigments? You can take a black light in China black lead on quarrels in <unk> oftentimes like flourescence. If you've seen chasing coral the movie The you'll see actually during some of the bleaching events as bleaching they actually will start to like Golo in like these blues and Purple Colors and there's been a lot of hypotheses and why they're doing that could potentially attract new symbionese it could be sort of like a their own kind of like sunscreen screening method to protect their own tissue so we're still learning more about that but <hes> the corals are able some species are able to also produce <unk> pigments themselves so that was dock called chasing coral and if you WanNa see what coral bleaching looks like and just get hyped to mobilize other folks to care. This is a great Doctor Watch. Are there any movies <hes> any fictitious movies that honor or or really up fuck with coral that you're like come on any movies that you're like. I was actually really impressed with the Coral Finding Nemo really yeah there. They didn't really good job like there's some other like inaccuracies in their biology but there but I remember when I I thought I came right when I was graduating college I just I was really like this the they didn't really nice job but some of the forum saw that's that's pretty awesome. Corrado tend to get a lot of spotlight mainstream films going I._M._D._b.. And find out who the coral consultant Sultan was and chances. Are you probably know quick aside so I tracked this down and I think I think it was a very passionate ichthyologist who's done research on the Great Barrier Reef now at the University of Washington and he's credited as Adam Summers Fabulous fish guy in the special things of the two thousand three film hiding and yes I found him. I called his office to ask him. He was out of the office so I sent an email. I didn't hear back from him yet but yes I do you want to be his friend. Brooke running wants to know does coral have a smell you can so right now that you go onto county obey you can smell their GAM meets. The after a big spun event. You can definitely smell them nice of coral mucus death. I feel like a longer you work with anything. In the more you get a nose to it underwater. You know we're not really smelling anything but like once you're covered in definitely earthy happy stink less key but it's actually a great question because you know while we might not smell the corals like a lot of marine organisms use chemical senses to interact with the surrounding environments and things like that so there's a lot of smells in that sense going on in the water in the oceans options so this next question was also asked by listener grace and allegra violet up and wants to know what role does concrete truly play in the health of coral and I know nothing about this concrete composition in we'll look this up is it has a lot of same attributes is like a calcium carbonate cross skeletons. It's a really great substrates. It's Kinda porous still at times you'll Z like I think he's in Mexico where they have that underwater sculpture installation man that deal different corals and swingers and whatnot I'll recruiting too so can actually act as a pretty good substrate is a really great substrate for artificial reefs so he's talking about an underwater museum in Cancun Mexico it consists of nearly five hundred sunken sculptures and they serve as a base for new coral. Why did they make this? You ask because too. Many tourists were snorkeling in the natural local reefs leaves and destroying them so they were like <hes> Hey hey look over here. Look look at these sculptures worked so people go there. Now and coral can grow on it ding perfect also some of the sculptures serve as scathing anything environmental critiques like the ones of men in Tuxedos burying their heads in the sand a burn so sick it scorched underwater Zane liberum wants to know hello. Oh Hi is the news about the Great Barrier Arief being declared dead true and if so is there anything that we can do about it. That's a great question so there was that article that came out a couple years ago now that declared the Great Barrier Reef did it's not that that's the answer however it's not doing so great right like in that and that's why articles like that can be challenging to the overall conversation because we don't want ever and say oh good. It's not bad move on right but the gray area it just experienced too horrific leaching events back to back and new paper by Terry Hughes's group out in Australia show that the recruitment of baby corals to the reef post those events had significantly declined and so that's one of those like you know not only are we dealing with the impacts of dying coral reef who's going to replace them right and so these that these are these kind of a small impacts that were cancel the Great Barrier Reef. You know did experience this massive leaching event lost like you know in some regions lost like fifty percent or more of the coral on the ground and they're trying to come back different sections of the reef are still healthy. You can still go out and see corals in the Great Barrier Reef but but if it keeps getting hit by these events like there's time for things to recover this to go back to what the worst educating yourself on the politicians on the laws and bills that are coming up that would directly likely impact of the reefs here in where we are like. That's where we have. The most sway is is really important thing like going to town halls also not just voting but like actually showing up becoming parts of the conversations that are directly influencing the legislators in your own area can be a really good way to start <hes> and then also if you're going to place the great barrier <unk> essentially voting with your dollar doing your due diligence to look up operators that are eco-friendly go friendly that with some of the funding from that actually go to research refrigeration but look looking for making sure that your footprint in those spaces are supporting organizations that are doing it right and our tour operator for outlets was saying they don't provide fans because so many times tourists will just absolutely slap a core reap with the fan and so that was great. I didn't know that yeah definitely and that's the thing like some corals. Their structures are big big eskenazi surfer like they hurt. When you get hit by on okay side note I just watched a bunch of videos of surfers bailing on coral not only are the coral shirt but man oh the blood oh the scars so there's one video of into Houston pro surfer who got a pretty bad scrape up and they show her on the boat afterward and they have to brush the coral bids out of your skin and then for some reason they have to rub citrus in it and she's like biting a towel? I cannot imagine the pain no other remedies for this refresh according to some surfer message boards that I just totally locked on our hydrogen peroxide alcohol people use iodine other sages baby shampoo Tempur and scrubbing it with a toothbrush and antibacterial ointments work but you have to treat it right away because you can be left with a staph infection which would be hell and Nar Nar not in a good way please note I am neither a surfer nor doctor so consult insult one of the two or both also for the coral. I don't think they have a strategy for first aid but they're also super fragile some of them. That was really nice like branching shapes just a tiny cake. You can kick over a <unk> growing over a hundred years. Here's in like one cake <hes> in so. That's you know that's great yeah. It's great great way to educate people on that people think the rocks does feeling like stand on that in the polyps thin layers tissue so and you can crush them later face Bowen other patrons like Erica Sarah Pack and G._M.. Had questions about Shales favorites how full puff Hilary wants to know which reef has been your favorite today then. Do you have a favorite. Can you pick a favorite reef. They're going to be like I know what's a ferret. This is really hard so I was lucky enough to dive the blue hole in Belize which is like a battle that you can just sink down until like there's all these sharks everywhere in that dive in the surrounding reef there. I saw way way more <unk> if you for someone like me in this environment if you see like a shark that's really cool like one in us because we don't have as many anymore right and like sharks are actually a really good sign of a healthy reef environment. You WanNa have all all the levels of food chain and I had never been in a wreath before that environment where there are so many apex predators just living there so the coral was beautiful <unk> diversity of fish and but then also like there. I got to see it altogether. It's for me. That was really exciting. Moment my gosh have you ever been scared of a shark bite or you like no not really like sharks have a really doing awful were shark. Finning is decimating world shark populations and so much of you know like we're talking about. How do we change these laws? Have we BANJAR visiting. How do we like not allow sharpens be sold commercial senses in our country relates to our own like emotional reaction to sharks are scared of sharks the majority the vast majority thirty of all shark species want nothing to do with us? They're very tiny mouths are giving bottomfeeders or that. It's not scared of us. As we are. Then anytime you go into the ocean or nature generally have to respect the environment where you are respect organisms there and so you know it's always important to know what the what the threats are. There could be or the dangers there could be anytime you go so whenever I go diving in any place I look like what organisms could possibly encounter and and if you work with the operator you go to areas that are safer writing but I always feel incredibly lucky every time I have the opportunity to see sharks anywhere. They're beautiful. They never you know they're doing their own thing. They're over there not not disturbing me. There are some shark species that might have a case of mistaken identity for swimming around like a seal at the surface in you know white shark territory. They can't come up in like poke you see if your food or not in the way like their strategy for food is they don't have arms right. They use their mouths to grab onto things so they'll come up in. You know if you think you're seal try to take a bite but people aren't dying of be eaten up being eaten by a shark. Unfortunately unfortunately it has to do with like you coming to a wound from that check by by <hes> not skater sharks in you shouldn't be either for more on this. See this Salamanca Morphology Hella so lax Salako morphology episode on sharks also I snuck in this teeny tiny question about eighty bitty garbage sorry this one's a bummer but it's good to know how about plastics and corals I was a little article when I was when we were waiting for each other about micro-plastics wchs being found in corals yeah unfortunately micro-plastics so plastic general is awful for the environment right you hear these stories about straws getting stuck on Charles noses or you know the animals getting plastic bags or eating eating plastic bags thinking that they're jellyfish other kinds of food and so is there a big problem however learned recently is that the plastics as <unk> actually breakdown so they're not necessarily visible to the naked eye. These micro-plastics are having a huge impact on these lower traffic levels unlike <hes> a lot of these the plankton are eating the plastics that in the larger animals citing those plastics and there have been the some studies that are looking at our corals eating these plastics as well. What does that mean right? You can't no nutritional value if you can expel those then all of a sudden. There's something inside of your gut. That's taking up space nutrition could be in so these are huge huge problems that are also unfortunately global anything saying that you've seen research wise in the last few years or any turnarounds that have given you hope you like going yeah absolutely like I was telling you earlier. We you know when you see a coral bleaching event in your like so many these quarrels died. There's always didn't i. There are the corals themselves are there are some winners some survivors in that's really exciting because without intervention from us there organisms they're individuals that are already able to withstand these you look at it. Environment like you know the Red Sea which is on average way warmer warmer than anywhere else in the corals are living up temperatures that can't hear the the differences that that this happened over geologic time whereas we are speeding up in Kenya's animals keep up for that but like just the fact that like these things exist is very exciting also in the last just like ten years ago said like coral bleaching to somebody on the street they might be like I know you're talking about but there's been a huge push in education and excitement around of coral reefs in the last handful of ears were people have heard about this people know people are starting to really care about it and understand why it's important why it's important to them like why they want this for their future generations so corals have really come into the national international conversation away that they haven't before in because of that. There's a lot more hope for these big overarching changes that we need on the systemic scale to potentially start to happen and I always ask these last few questions but what's the Shittiest Shitty S. thing about your job. What sucks in a way that either like annoying is moldy wetsuits? Is it early mornings or more infrastructure settling. What's the thing that's sucks? Most about being a coral biologists is watching something you love die in being able to do anything about it in like in that something that's shared by. Probably everyone in our field like you know I love corals roles like biologically speaking like I am so fascinated by them. They're such interesting animals but so much of my research is around keeping them around right and it's anytime you dive on a wreath. That's it's bleaching <unk>. That's been devastated by any kind of impact especially when that you know you'd seen flourishing before. It's you have an emotional reaction. It's it's a very devastating feeling that pressure of it's not just yeah I don't finish my dissertation that an uncle graduate but like so much of this work that we all are working on is is GonNa have an impact right now. We're not in our redoing it right every asking the right questions and that's definitely the hardest part for sure. What's your favorite part of your job or about curls? Oh man you whole podcast. My favorite part of my job is getting answering into part which asked to do no harm reports want. It's it's lake. It's the daily life in the people I work with for sure like in the communities. When you're working on issue this important people really passionate? It really excited in because we're trying to solve something really quickly. It's a very creative place to be like people are coming up with really creative out of the box solutions in being able to be part of new technologies that are coming in new ways of addressing these questions trying just like crazy crazy ideas that just might work. Maybe something that we might not have had the luxury to do on a system that you know is doing fine somewhere but that that kind of creative thinking and passionate environment is really exciting place to be so I that's that's something great and also I take a boat to work every day. I can just like walk into the water in see the reef and while that's amazing for research in questions it's also just it's a luxury I feel so lucky to we ought to be in a place where the my study environment is right here and I can appreciate the just the beauty of the reef on everyday basis. Maybe that's why marine biologists are a little bit more chill. I really chill and they're also like super stressed. That's a good point good point. You're doing such great work excited that I got to talk to you. Thank you for taking its allure of your time. I know that it's a busy day for coral. Are you going back out tonight. I am yeah definitely cited very excited so asks smart Mark Amazing People sometimes two questions and also just if you can't please vote. Let's just let's try to turn this boat around also for more about shale you can follow him at wrong. Underscore Wail on twitter that will be linked in the show notes where at apologies on twitter and Instagram I'm at alley ward with one L. on both and thank you to atlas obscure further really wonderful time in Hawaii learning about all this stuff and thanks to the world's most charming to just Sarah mcinulty AK ceremsak on social media for hooking me up with this really wonderful new ideologist jail. I look forward to calling him. Dr Matsuda soon <hes> thank you also to Bonnie Dutch and Shannon felt as they have a comedy podcast called you are that if you like funny amazing using people they also manage my merch at Allergies Merch Dot Com thank you to Hannah Lippo and Aaron Talbert for admitting the allergies podcasts facebook group. I was also recently told there's an allergies podcasts sub read it now just in case you're on red it or you WANNA go discuss episodes and share weird a logical facts there so high read it Hoy thank you to jared sleeper of my good bad brain podcast for assistant editing and being wonderfully supportive on not the easiest week and thanks to the host of podcast seizure ask right about domino's and the podcast which is all about kitties Stephen Morris who's a pillar serving as a sturdy substrate and putting this all together <hes> apologies for being delayed on this one folks a hate. It's late. I was in New York. I felt really under the weather and slept twelve hours a day two days in a row so I just needed a week extension. The music was written by Nick Thorburn of the Band islands which is a great band now. If you listen until the end of the show you you know I tell you a secret. This secret is that when it comes to apples and baked potatoes my favorite part of the skin like I want to eat other people's discarded potato skins at the table all eat the whole Shebang but I'm just like a goat. I just love Chewy roughage. I don't know why but also in college my favorite thing to eat in the dining hall of all the things they had in the cafeteria and loved baked potatoes with soy sauce and and then sour cream on top of it. I think that often and I'm like yeah I still stand by. Non Combo is pretty tight per by pack. A dermatology traumatology does zoology meteorology. They look like a rock but I'm certainly Colin. Not <hes> Carl is trying to survive. Oh please let me and before I leave you. What was the name of the crates with the science projects? It's Kiko these are the the projects that are designed to spark creativity tinkering and learning in kids of all ages they make learning about steam fun. They're awesome. They're on a mission to empower kids not just to make a project but to learn and to make a difference in the world.

Hawaii United States Shale reeves coconut island Carl San Francisco ascites allergies Great Barrier Reef Jack Golf snorkeling Nydia Patriot dot Alley Ward Beautiful Hawaii Dr Rene California Academy of Sciences
How you can help save the monarch butterfly -- and the planet | Mary Ellen Hannibal

TED Talks Daily

10:56 min | 1 year ago

How you can help save the monarch butterfly -- and the planet | Mary Ellen Hannibal

"This ted talk features author and journalist. Mary Ellen Hannibal Recorded Live at Ted Women Twenty nineteen. Hi there. I'm in the habit of saying that I would like if butterflies could talk. But I've been recently re considering that because we already have a loud world. Can you imagine if butterflies where yacking out there all over the place but I would like to ask one question which is what is the meaning of some of the stories that we humans tell about them because remarkably all over the world cultures have really similar stories similar mythologies about having to do with the human soul some cultures? Tell US butterflies are carrying the souls of Children? Who have died wrongly or too soon and other cultures. Tell us that butterflies are carrying the souls of our ancestors among us. So it's possible that butterflies have some sort of outside outsized role in our afterlife but in this life in this world. Butterflies are in really serious trouble so today. More than sixty species of butterflies are endangered around the world but even more than that insects are declining declining declining. In the last fifty years we've lost nearly fifty percent of the total number of bodies of insects. Now this is a disaster it could. It could impact us in a more serious way more quickly than climate change because butterflies don't do that much in the ecosystem that we depend on but they do things for other creatures that we do depend on and that's the same story with all insect lice. Insect life is at the very foundation of our life support systems. We can't lose these. These insects biodiversity all over the globe is in vast decline habitat loss pesticides herbicides and impacts of Climate Change Habitat. Loss is very serious. And that's where we really have to get developing better more mindfully. It's the worst of times. We are kind of overloaded with our problems. It's also the best of times. There's incredibly good news. We have exactly what we need. We have exactly the platform to save. Nature is called citizen science so citizen scientists generally term used to mean people without a PhD contributing to scientific research. Sometimes it's called community science which gets at the communal purpose of citizen science which is to do something for our Commons together. It's amateur science. It's being turbocharged today. By vast computing power statistical analysis on the smartphone. But it's an ancient practice that people have always practiced. It's amateur science. Professional Science has its roots in amateur science. Charles Darwin was a citizen scientist. He had no advanced degree and he worked only for himself. So someone showed Darwin this Madagascar Star Orchid. Which has a spur. That's twelve inches long. And the spurs the part of a flower that the nectar is in so. This person showed Darwin and said this proves that evolution does not come about in in a natural way. This flower proves that only God can make these incredibly bizarre and tricky looking creatures on the earth because no insect could possibly pollinate this. God must reproduce. It and Darwin said No. I'm sure that there is an insect somewhere with a purpose. Long enough to pollinate that star orchid and he was right. This is called predict because Darwin predicted that must exist so over time as the the moth developed longer probiscus so the plant developed a longer spur over millions of years the plant and the moth developed a relationship whereby they both make each other's chances of existence better so the monarch butterflies different story than that particular moth but reflects the same kind of fundamental idea that Darwin had called co evolution and Co evolution is at the heart of how nature works. And it's also at the heart of what's going wrong for the monarch butterflies the monarch does this amazing thing and over the course of a year it goes over the entirety of North America. It does this in four or five generations. The first generations only live a couple of weeks. They may they lay eggs and they die the next generation emerges as butterflies and takes the next leg of the journey. Nobody knows how they do it by the time. The fifth generation comes back around that one lives longer they over winter in Mexico and in California by the time it gets there. Those butterflies are going back to where their ancestors came from. But they've never been there before and nobody that they're immediately related to has been there before either. We don't know how they do it. The reason we know they do this kind of migration and they still have a lot of unanswered questions about the monarch's migration is because of citizen science so for decades people of made observations about monarch butterflies. Where and when they see them and they've contributed these observations to platforms like journey north. So these massive amounts of data come into a place like journey north and they can create a map of this time of over a course of a year of where monarch SCO also because of citizen science. We understand that Bonnard Butterfly. Numbers are going down down down so in the nineteen eighties. The overwintering butterflies here in California. There were four million counted last year. Thirty thousand four million to thirty thousand since one thousand nine hundred eighty s the monarchs on the East Coast during a little bit better. But they're also going down. Okay so what are we gonNA do about it? Well very organically. Nobody really asking anybody to do that. People all over. The continent are supporting monarch butterflies. The heart of the problem for monarchs milkweed. It's another co evolutionary relationship. And here's the story. Milkweed is toxic. It has poison in it that it evolved to deter other insects from eating it but the monarch developed a different kind of relationship different strategy with the milkweed. Not only does it tolerate the toxin. The monarch actually sequester the toxin in its body thus becoming poisonous to its predators. Monarch butterflies will only lay their eggs on milkweed and monarch caterpillars will only eat milkweed because they need that toxin to actually create what they are as a species so people are planting milkweed all over the country where we have lost milkweed. Due TO HABITAT. Destruction pesticide use herbicides use and climate change impacts you can create a lot of butterfly. Habitat pollinator habitat on a window sill a native nursery in your area and find out what native to where you live and you will bring beautiful things to yourself now. Citizen Science can do even more than rescued monarch butterflies. It has the capacity to scale to the level necessary that we need to mobilise to save nature and this is an example. It's called sitting nature challenge and sitting. Your challenge is a project of the California Academy of Sciences and the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History so for four years sitting. Nature Challenge has enjoined cities all over the globe to participate in counting up biodiversity in their cities. We're up to like a million observations of biodiversity collected by people around the globe. This past April the winner this year was South Africa. Much to the Chagrin of San Francisco. They have more biodiversity than we do. It's kind of an interesting thing. What is revealed when you start seeing? What are the natural resources where you live because as we go forward you wanna live where there's more biodiversity and by the way citizen science is a very good tool for social justice and environmental justice goals for helping reach them? You need to have data and you need to show a picture you need to point to a cause and then you need to have the surgical strike to help support. Whatever that problem is so sitting Nature Challenge? I think should get a commendation from the UN. Has there ever been a global effort on behalf of nature undertaken in this coordinated manner? It's it's amazing it's fantastic and it's really a pretty grassroots thing and we get very interesting information about butterflies and other creatures when we do. These bio blesses city nature challenge basically works with a tool called naturalist and I- naturalist is your entry drug to citizen science. I suggest putting it Signing up for it on a laptop or on a desktop and then you put the APP on your phone with you. Take a picture of a bird above snake. Anything and an artificial intelligence function and an an expert. Vetting system works to verify that observation. The APP gives the observation the date the time the latitude and the longitude. Geo Locates that observation. That's the data. That's the science of Citizen Science and then that data is shared and that sharing that is the soul of citizen science when we share data. We can see much bigger pictures of what's going on. There's no way to see that whole monarch migration without sharing data that's been collected over decades seeing the heart and soul of how nature works through citizen science. I'll end by asking you. Please participate in citizen science in some way shape or form. It is an amazingly positive thing. It takes an army of people to make it really work. And I'll just add that. I think butterflies probably really do have enough on their plate without carrying around human souls. But there's a lot we don't know right and what about all those stories. What are those stories telling us? Maybe we co evolved our souls with butterflies. Certainly we are connected to butterflies and deeper ways than we currently know and the mystery of the butterfly will never be revealed if we don't save them so please join me in helping to save nature now ex-.

Citizen Science US California Professional Science Charles Darwin Mary Ellen Hannibal North America San Francisco Bonnard Butterfly Mexico California Academy of Sciences UN scientist East Coast Los Angeles Museum of Natural
 Imagining The Future Of AI / Face Mites. Nov 29, 2019, Part 1

Science Friday

47:39 min | 1 year ago

Imagining The Future Of AI / Face Mites. Nov 29, 2019, Part 1

"This is science Friday. Ira Plato coming to you from the Sydney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco. One of my favorite topics discussed on science Friday is the microbiome you know that vast menagerie of trillions of microscopic bacteria and fungi I that leave on us and inside of us but I found out. Recently there's a lot more living on us than just microbes take for example. The Face Mike yes heard me correctly. It's a tiny Iraq. Need that lives on your face and in some studies it's been found in one hundred percent of people sampled old so chances are yes. They're hiding out in. Your oil glanced in hair follicles. Right now I see a few of you squirming squirming in the seats about that. I understand it and you know if you do the math there are about five million hair follicles on your body and there are more more than seven billion people on Earth so there are lots of face by everywhere you look and joining me now to talk about these cubicle. It his creatures is Michelle trautwein curator of entomology at the California Academy of Sciences. Here in San Francisco Science. Friday it okay. What exactly is a facebook so face? My doesn't Iraq needed so it's it's related to a spider their microscopic and they kind of a stubby little worm with eight little legs at the tip and it safe to assume that everybody in our audience might have at least at least why I hate to break it to you but yes you all have face might probably dozens hundreds maybe thousands. Ooh doesn't that make you feel good but we call them face but they live all over your whole body all of your by. They really liked the greasy spots so they congregate mostly in your face. But also your genitals your ears nipples knows side your nose. Wow and I'm afraid to ask the next question. What do they eat on my body? They eat them which is kind of just the oily gunk on your skin. So that's why they liked the greasy parts because because that's what the although to be honest that's what we assume. We know very little about them. So maybe they're eating bacteria maybe they're eating skin. In sales there are still a mystery okay. Presuming that the oil pores are producing is meant to protect my face from the elements right so Having all these arachnids eat it is in that depriving me of my own facial oils. That I need doesn't seem like it right. It seems like we probably we have enough. And maybe even they initiate the creation of CBA. I don't I don't really know. And we passed them from one person to another so. Oh that's right. We all have our own population and it seems like their past mostly from parent to offspring. So we do have some data that shows we share them between people. You're really physically close us with your partners. But it seems there primarily passed down from parent to offspring. So what if you try to wash your face enough and you use all kinds of creams using lotions or whatever you're shaking your head like I'm wasting my time. Waste your time. Yeah so I don't think washing does anything. If you really put some kind kind of pesticide on your face you could really. You could kill some of them. But here's the here's the thing they also can reproduce asexually so if there's one female left anywhere the whole thing will start over again. So they're just a part of your skin ecosystem and an inevitable label part of what they don't Pu right. I understand. They don't poop what happens to them going to blow up we've when we first learned that it it seemed crazy but actually it turns out plenty of mice. Don't have an anus. That's actually not. As unusual as it sounds so mites some Mites just excrete their waste in other ways wow so whenever we talk about biology and animals and humans we talk about. They occupy some niche in nature niche. What is that that the face month Y do we have face mice? What we're where do they fit in? Yeah they've they've created needed. This amazing niche for themselves somehow in early Mammalian evolution so this genus originated with mammals and as every mammal species issues arose mites arose with them and actually we have two species on us and they live in separate micro habitats on our skin so the niche even becomes an even smaller niche. Wow You you sent me a face might kit you call the where I actually dabbed oil on my face and I scrape the witherspoon and when I dumped it in some cotton and sent it back to you so you could look at my face bites. What did you learn from that? Yeah so one of the most interesting things about about-face nights is that different people from different parts of the world host different lineages efface nights. So I can tell you something about your ancestry by looking at your face might no so afraid to ask so surprise surprise. This is the big reveal you your face might fall into into the European lineage. Face might face my Fano that let me tell you that. But that's good to find out and so how did they decide. They wanted to live in our in our pores. This is an evolutionary thing. That's going on. That's right so might live in the craziest places all over in every every aspect to the world you could ever imagine so there's Mites that live in the noses of birds and in the feathers of birds in ended up skinner frog so our bodies are just habitat right and these mites nights of found great cozy places to live if you have questions about face Mason. You'd like to ask a question here. We have a couple of microphones. I'm wondering if other our animals mammals also have face mites. Yes so all mammal species have face nights. And what's amazing. Is that right now. There's about one hundred and fifty described species in this genus Lena's almost every mammal that we've looked for has them and some have two three four species unique to them which means there's thousands thousands and thousands of face nights to be discovered on mammal species all over the planet so we need some new scientists some young budding scientists to come and study facing with me. So am I swap with my pets. Well if you are cozy with your pets you could get one of their mites. But they're so uniquely evolved to each host that they probably won't do so well so I wouldn't worry about getting taken over by your dog Mites or cat. It's good to hear that I think we have question gentleman's coming to the microphone here. Yes my hair starting to fall out or the the cause so believe it or not face. It's it's really like fine hair so they're not. There's not a ton of them on your scalp. They really liked the fine facial hair and hair and other parts of your body. So you can't blame them for for your hair loss. No but giving them extra space here John that's true they're probably going to move your helping. Yeah well I understand that you study based on Wales too right well. This is a big mystery face. Mice have never been described on Wales. But how crazy would it be if Wales Face My. It's so at the California Academy of Sciences. Some of our team often response to the whale strandings and so I have have been delivered a gift of a big chunk of whale skin with a hair follicle and even a tiny hair and I looked for Wale nights and I have to say I didn't find any which was tragic but one day you know. That's how Captain Ahab got started. Let's go up there in the balcony. Yes are or Skin rashes like related to Mites not. Xm But they are associated with Rose Asia. And you know sometimes I think they get a bad rap. It's not not clear if they cause rose Asia or if they're just a lot of them if they're just Corlett with ROSACEA gene sequenced face so I've been working for years to sequence the face genome and it is so problematic because it's such a tiny creature and it's full of bacteria bacteria and it's full of human DNA so what I've done is sequenced my genome and post docs genome over and over again. But I haven't gotten a enough face my to make it put together a genome yet. I'm working on it now. We're told that parents can pass on their face bites to their kids within breastfeeding or just guessing Amman forehead. That's right that does one parent usually do it more than the other passing on. Well so you know I I think traditionally they were probably passed down from mother to offspring primarily through breastfeeding. Although I can say in my own family I've tested my husband. And and my kids face mites kids. We're GONNA test your face Mites. Today I did. They didn't have a choice voice and I can say that my kids have my husband's face mites which meant after all the time I put in a really it really bummed me out must really hurt so so when the Europeans do this all this cheek kissing all the time they do to cheeks said of just one the face nights. I don't think so. I think it's got to be a little bit more prolonged it contact otherwise so what I've found is that I've sampled thousands of people and everyone has unique face mites. Unless you're together in a family right but you don't share face with strangers so if you were passing them along every time you kiss cheeks there would be more sharing amongst the population and there's really not really your own going to remember it. I'M GONNA write. You know the pin cushion your face nights earlier over here. It's romantic. Are there any forensic uses for face. Might you know there would be friends accuses. Now I don't know if anyone is is using them but it would be it's a it's a field ripe for a ripe for forensic use for example probably because your face mites are really your own soon you can tell you know you can leave evidence evidence that I've always thought it would be a good sort of like infidelity fidelity test. You know if you can you check your partner's face Mites or the makings of a TV writer. I can I can tell you that. Thank you very much sir. Thank you you tell trautwein curator of entomology at the California Academy of scientists here in San Francisco. Thank you very much. And if you're just itching see what I did there. For more Mike Knowledge you can sign up to receive a might text every day this week by texting the word might to nine one seven two four two four seven Oh that might. Mit to the number nine. One seven two four two four seven. Oh you get a daily might delivered to you via text. It's not a real might known is not a real face face my. We're going to send you some information about that mic. Please welcome our musical guests for the evening. The Bay area's own Fox tails Dell's brigade stories. Nobody subdivision the back half sister Yoga Lick vulgar different ways you serve. This is science Friday. I'm IRA PLATO. Science fiction can take us two worlds feel very different whether it's the robot uprising. A galaxy far far away or even says they say whibley wobbly tiny vimy stuff but these stories only appeared to go as they say where no person has gone before as far fetched as tales of the future may feel my next guests say they can actually connect us to familiar. Quandries Take Star Trek's Commander Commander Data Super Smart Android crew member in the next generation in the season. Two episode the measure of a man data is suddenly on trial. Is He property or is he a person with the right to choose what happens to him and at the heart of the matter is is he sanctioned and self aware here's a clip of Captain Picard trying to test. Just that question. What are you doing? I'm taking part illegal hearing to determine my rights and status am I a personal property and what's at stake. I right to choose. Perhaps my very life I write. I stayed this my right to choose. My life seems reasonably self-aware to me. Come on to now let me welcome my guests ANALII new. It's the author of the future feature of another time line Charlie. Jane Anders the author of the city in the middle of the night. I know that you both are co hosts. A A podcast called our opinions are correct. That is correct that is as correct as our opinions on science Friday. We love to talk about taking being stem and turning it into steam. You put the from arts into stem and this seems to be a perfect example of how you take the arts and talk about contemporary contemporary issues. Right that's right and I think of science fiction as kind of the cultural wing of the scientific project I mean part of what our job it is a science fiction. Writers is to spin up scenarios that people who are working in labs or who are slaving away at a keyboard. Don't really necessarily have time. I'm to think about but what I think is really great about this star. Trek episode is that it raises all of these possibilities that you might not consider if you're developing ai it also raises. There's a lot of ethical questions about how we should treat data but also about how we engage in the scientific process because one of the big questions is Willa Willa scientist be able to vivisection data. So Charlie Jane Habits the episode resolve all of these ethical issues. Basically it's resolved off by everybody decided that data actually is a person rather than a thing and the way that that's kind of established in part is because the scientists who wants to dissect data commander medics has been using the pronoun it to refer to data throughout the episode but at the end he finally uses the male Pronoun to talk about data and watching this episode. Recently I was really moved by it because as a transgender person. The fact that data's Pronoun is finally acknowledged felt really meaningful to me and it felt like that's part of acknowledging his person hood and it's also acknowledging that his experiences in his sense of himself are valid and one of the things that they keep talking about it in the episode is whether data's memories or just information that you could back up to any other computer or whether their lived experiences and signs of a journey that he's been on as a person one of the things that's interesting is that this is an episode that really deals with robots and legal procedures. But we've actually just. I had one of the very first trials in the US over the Uber Self driving car. And who would be responsible win killed somebody eh when it ran over someone and this is a question that revolves around what responsibilities. We bear for the automation that were unleashing on the streets and the other thing. That's really relevant. I think about this episode is it deals with the way that bias creeps into the scientific process because Maddix who is the scientists that wants to vivisection data would he thinks when he sees an artificial intelligence is well well. Why don't we build an army of disposable labour so he looks at the end he doesn't think hey? This could be a Powell or this could be a colleague. He thinks a HA. I found a disposable labour excellent. How can I make thousands of them or millions and in fact that's always been part of the stories about robots botts and in this episode? There's an amazing moment. Where Guinan the kind of bartender? Slash confidante talks to Captain Picard about the higher implications of allowing linked data. It's become property. Consider that in the history of many worlds. There've always been disposable creatures. They do the dirty work they they do the work that no one else wants to do. Because it's too difficult to hazardous and an army of data's all disposable. You don't have to think about the welfare affair. You don't think about how they feel whole generations of disposable people talking about slavery. I think that's a little harsh. I don't think that's Polish. I think that's the truth. That's truth be obscured behind comfortable easy you I mean how often does sci fi like the star trek quandary get to thinking about contemporary technology analogy and society issues. I think that as a science fiction writer. I'm always thinking about how I can create scenarios that might help helped inform science but also I'm informed by science I'm constantly thinking about science and kind of curious about how things could develop based on different technological or social changes and. I think that you know people talk about thought experiments and science fiction. I think it is obviously. It's not a controlled environment. I mean my brain is probably the least controlled environment you could possibly imagine and but it is a way to sort of pose these. What if scenarios and kind of game them out? Yeah I mean I think that you know especially around something like artificial intelligence which has been kind of a Dream Team for humans for decades at this point It's still a really in the realm of science fiction and if we're going to be developing think living beings that are human equivalent. We have to bring in these issues around ethics and culture. Yeah and I think that there's no limit to the number of the issues in society and in science that you can point to instances of them in science fiction. I think that once you start looking. They're everywhere and a lot of stuff that we kind of think of is like ubiquitous in our world came out of science fiction. One way or the other. So from our gadgets to the idea of SIAB's Siab's and propaganda which we talk about in our podcast and then some of the environmentalist shoes that science fiction deals with which are now increasingly pressing being in kind of a part of our lives. Yeah one of the things that we talk about. A lot is the fact that if you're going to be imagining the future now you absolutely have to imagine climate change in climate the crisis because otherwise. You're just not presenting a realistic picture of what tomorrow will look like you're both Besides prolific podcasters. You're also both authors. So let's talk for a second about your recent books aniline. The future of another timeline is a story about time travel right. That's right eight and I was very disappointed when I started working on it when I interviewed a couple of physicists and found out that actually time travel doesn't exist and will never exist so it turns turns out that that is not very scientific but I wrote a book about how scientists try to grapple with it and understand it when they do discover time machines scenes basically embedded in ancient rock formations on earth. And they understand that they don't seem to fit with our models of physics but they act very much like geophysicist in the way they go about analyzing it so it was really fun for me to have a book where I got to give you a little bit of fantasy but also include include the scientific process. You say that the story was inspired by something in the prison. Stuff that we're doing in the present it's true. It was inspired by Wikipedia. Edit edit wars and that is because my characters who go back in time and think about changing their timeline refer to it as editing the time line and eventually my characters get into an edit war with another group that keeps reverting all of the changes that they're making so my heroes. Those are feminist time travelers. Who are going back in time and trying to improve women's access to reproductive health care and there's these guys we need it? There's these guys that keep going back and reverting their edits and and basically they wind up in the year twenty twenty two which is their present day in United States where there are no abortion rights for women so they have to fight the Senate war. It's the same were. We all thought online ov on Wikipedia. But they're actually finding it over the time line and it's quite difficult to change the past. It's not easy at all. You really have have to go back and spend years organizing so I had a lot of fun making it feel like actual scientific work where you don't just instantly find something you actually have to do assays for like twenty years before you actually figure out how face Mites work so I think that it's it's really. That's that's part of the fun. Is it getting the audience to feel like. Yeah we're involved in science and Annette War. Let's move onto your book. Charlie Jane the city in the middle of the night tells about about a world three thousand years in the future of humanity and you put on a barely habitable planet. The city in the middle of the night is is a book that entirely came. Out of a SCI obsession of mine while we were working on our nine. I became obsessed with tidally locked planets which which are planets where one side of the planet always faces the Sun and one side always faces away from the sun the same way that one side of the moon always faces earth. And there's a side of the moon that we never I see and I'm not a tidally locked planet basically. If you're living there the sky is never going to change over your heads. There's no sunrise. There's no sunset and depending pending on who you talk to the only part of the planet that might be habitable to humans. Is this thin strip of land called the Terminator in between the day side and the nightside aside and so I actually thought about calling my book the Terminator but it turned out that that title was taken. I don't know I don't know why and in your story are you human technologies actually failing right the colonies collapsing. Why did it seem like that was an important feature to explore? Yeah I mean. In general. I spent spent a few years really trying to imagine what it would be like to colonize the planet like that and every aspect of it like what. How would you deal with the passage of time and knowing no one went to sleep and understanding how much time had passed when you don't have these accused of like the sun going up and down and just how you organize your society? And how do you manage at your resources and one of the things that I decided over a period of time when I was thinking about this is that eventually our technology would start to fail because after hundreds of years. Here's I mean they don't know how many years it's been but after hundreds of years on this planet there are things that you can't replace anymore. There are things that it's hard to make with with the facilities that they have. There's it's hard to keep building computers. It's hard to keep building all these really high tech things. They came to the planet with and they end up with like kind of uneven technology. Where some things are are still pretty advanced and some things are just not working anymore but also in general? It's getting harder and harder to live on this planet because we've been messing around with that environment airman but also it's just it's a challenging environment place to live. It sounds like our planet. Is that what you're talking about climate change and if you're thinking that technology allergy is gonNA save us. It might not save us. I mean that's certainly part of it. I think that you know everything. I write climate changes in the back of my mind because it's such a huge part of our lives lives now and living in San Francisco. Where sometimes you can't go outside without a mask because of the smoke from the fires and you know hearing about all the natural disasters all over over the place? It's hard not to be thinking about climate change and about how humans interact with our environment. And how we do tend to kind of you know have an impact on on our surroundings both good and bad and that we need to be more careful about how we approach you know an ecosystem that especially one that is not our ecosystem to begin with which is part of what I was interested in. Here I'm IRA Plato. This is science Friday from WNYC studios. Yeah you can applaud. Why we're here in San Francisco talking with Authors Charlie Jane Anders? There's an emily new. It's also the CO host. Our opinions are correct podcasts. And only what are some of the themes read science fiction. You see themes coming up over you and over again for you so I would say the themes that I seek out in the kind of reading that I do and in the writing I do tend to be around how people resist. When they're in a situation that is seemingly unsolvable so it might be an environmental missile system Where people are struggling with climate change but a lot of times I deal with social systems and how people try to you form groups that can resist and this is a huge theme in science fiction? It's everything from robot uprisings which let's remember. I mean robots upright. You No have uprisings. Because they're being oppressed right. It's not just because they want to eat humans or Bama's it's because we turn them into slaves and they're pissed off. Nobody likes being a slave including putting a robot so I find that really interesting. I lay kind of finding the chinks in a system and so whether that's futuristic corporation or a planet where where you're trying to tear a form I just I really love. Seeing people can act with each other even if it's not humans can be aliens or robots or aunts. I'm getting together and yeah defeating some kind of faceless enemy swelling Charlie Jane. What do you think think of some of the recurring? I mean I'm very interested in reconciling opposites. I'm interested in people who are caught between apparent like complete contradictions. Like two completely -pletely opposite things and how they deal with that and in this book. It's about people who are caught between the day and night and these are two kind of opposite sides of the planet that they're living in between but I'm also really interested in empathy. I think that my work always tends to lead towards people having more empathy for each other and for people that they don't even consider people and learning to have more understanding and I feel like this is a thing that I would love to see. Humans do in real life having more empathy for the other. We're having more understanding of people who aren't like US having more openness to other ideas. So that's something that I keep. Chipping away at my work. I think both of us Are Really Interested in writing hopeful stories too. I think this is a bigger movement within the science fiction and fantasy community is to think about stories. That aren't dystopia copious. Or that are difficult. Dystopia in worlds where people are figuring out ways to change it or reform it or survive it because sometimes just just the act of surviving can be incredibly hopeful in dark times. Yeah I think it's really important to offer people like a a message of hope and and not just like easy hope but hope through struggle hope through doing everything that we can to make things better. We're talking about the future of technology and how science fiction can't informed the real world when we come back is our tech future a dystopia or something more hopeful. How science fiction and ethicists think think about what's possible taking us to the break our musical guests Fox tails brigade it talk breath? This is science Friday I am I replied. They don't we're talking about the future of technology and how science fiction can inform the real world with my guest Analii new. It's the author of the future of another their timeline and co host of the podcast. Our opinions are correct. Charlie Jane Anders the author of the city in the middle of the night also oh co host. Our opinions are correct. I want to take us more into the real world now and the real future especially where. AI is concerned. This is after all the bay area and it's home of countless companies contemplating had a make tech and artificial intelligence specifically do more the heavy lifting in our society social media rideshare apps even I to read x rays and so much more. But as recent headlines have highlighted highlighted. It's not as easy as writing an algorithm to curate. Our news feeds. Help us find a ride downtown or decide if we need. Surgery makes makes mistakes. It has unintended consequences or does exactly what. It's designed for but to the dismay of some portion of society WHO's WHO's out there thinking about the most responsible way to develop tech? Well my next guest is let me welcome to the stage Dr Chowdhary a data scientists and lead for responsible at accenture applied intelligence. Welcome to science Friday. Thanks for having me the chattering when we think about in the future. There are a couple of common players. We we have the good guys the robot at butlers and the bad guys we have the apocalypse skynet are you thinking about either of these as possible outcomes from the AI. We have today so that's a pretty a complex question and I love the fact that you've led with science fiction authors that there's so much of what we build which is limited by what we are told him what we can imagine so even the images does you've put up there are usually from distortion future and what we need to have our very positive narratives different ways of thinking about artificial intelligence. And that's kind kind of what I do even though I'm a consultant I work with companies to help them. Think of how to use artificial intelligence in ways that are beneficial to humanity. And how do you think about that. I I mean how do you guide people to be responsible with well. There's a lot of grounding in reality so actually I talk more often about Algorithm IQ systems founded artificial intelligence so often evokes this idea of magic or things that are too big or too heavy for us to understand and algorithm system is about how an algorithm them which is essentially math put into code interacts with the real world and the context in which we live today and probably more importantly the historical context upon which it was built. I come up with a definition of what responsible I is absolutely and when I think about out. Companies often these things renumerated in their core values or the mission statements. So they'll say things like you know we ever dedication diversity well if you're building an artificial intelligence algorithm to help you in your hiring system that's going to directly impact your ability to have a diverse workforce. Can you actually train people to create more responsible. Absolutely it's that's my job. I couldn't do it all myself. there are a lot of folks interested in how we build ethics into the development of artificial intelligence COLLAGEN systems. bill out of social scientists in my background. I'm the satisfaction of social scientism. Not a computer science major And I think that's one of the most beneficial things that people like myself bring to. The field is an understanding of humanity and social sciences. Can you give me an example of where we might see today being irresponsible. I you think that often things are bills without thinking of what I call questions zero the you just because we can doesn't mean we should question So there there are some papers is on how much energy it takes to run a complex model when we're thinking about climate change So recently there was a natural language processing so like a language generation algorithm built. That was so convincing the people who created it were worried that people could just I use it to create fake news or another example was deep. Fakes which is a technology. That's publicly available was used to create need. An APP called deep nudes which could basically take an image of any woman in regenerate her naked So there's plenty of irresponsible. Ai Being built out there and one of the things is that a lot of companies. A lot of organizations are thinking about is something called responsible role at a responsible release so if we're creating an algorithm that could be used for both good and bad add. How do we roll it out or protect us against the bad uses while still allowing for the good uses we have done some stories recently about Systemic Hispanic bias and Algorithms for example used by law enforcement Facial recognition databases things like. That is it as simple as fixing soon training data. That's one part of it. It's not all of its facial. Recognition is a great example Some the earliest work was about how facial recognition commission doesn't recognize Darker Skin and particularly women of darker skin color but the question really is should facial recognition exists in a lot of places are banning it and so you know is the answer to make better detection materials for law enforcement to oppress minority communities. No it's not just about perfecting it's about understanding about how it's being used when when we ask humans to participate in in the criminal justice system they're going to have biases. So why is the advice of an algorithm in predictive policing worse than what people might have. You're absolutely correct sexually just wrote a piece for venture beat on exactly this. It's something called the Retro Traffic Human When we build technological systems they're limited and we sort of shove humanity to fit the limitations of these systems right So when we think about for example self driving cars I think we all imagined the same thing when you know it was told to us like five five or so years ago. We imagined like living being an hour outside of where we worked getting our car napping while their cars whisked off and now what. We're seeing in the UBER. Examples of great one We're going to have right and Tesla to we're going to have to sit in our cars with our hands at ten and two in our foot on the brake paying attention to the road. What benefit did this bring us? Then the technology is quite quite limited. So what we've done is we know there's this promise and often an over promise. Then there's this hard reality and we're still kind of having to fit human beings things into this flawed system so in criminal justice it's a great example because you've judges being given the output of these criminal risk assessments. Now the question question I ask is do. We feel imperative human beings to question the algorithm. And do we know enough about it that we can dissect the outcome and understand if there's something good or bad that happening questions in the audience. Let's go up to the balcony. Yeah there I'm curious. Starring also had an episode in which the holographic autograph Dr Created Novel and. I'm curious both. Where do you think a I like has ownership over the things that it creates and if that case were decided today where do you think we would fall? In our justice system the novel you refer to as photons be free and it is interesting because that is set in the future after. We've already established. That data is a person and yet we're having to ask those questions again about the Hologram and I think that that really points out how much we think of our future. Ai Companions as potential servants. And I think I'm really curious when we think about building ethical. Is that something that scientists are thinking about about the kind of Assumptions that we're making about. You know what exactly these human equivalent beings will be doing for us. I mean I think there is certainly a camp camp that things pretty far ahead. I mean what I will say to maybe a just a question GPD Two which was the language generation Algorithm most talking about essentially can write stories. They don't necessarily not necessarily particularly good but they're they're realistic enough. I think somebody had generated an essay that it was submitted to some magazine competition and possibly at the economist and it wasn't bad. It kind of having graded enough papers in my life like an average judge. High School to Undergrad student paper which is not bad for an when thinking about things like ownership though. That's really interesting. And this is where the the the the legalities come in. Here's the problem with giving an AI ownership than it would also have liability right so if something bad happened what do do you do are you sending an AI to jail you turn it off. It doesn't feel like we're not we haven't reached a singularity. Do you think we're going to be having a singularity already. No no there's not going to be a time where I get smarter than people is what I'm asking a lot of smart people who are warning us about that. There are a lot of not so smart people who talk too much about it. The reason I say that is because sometimes it distracts some very real issues where you know there was a human being or a corporation that created this. Ai and frankly it can. It can absolves them of the liability of the product that they maybe have built if we're shoving the section another term. Michael Moore outsourcing we over anthropomorphized is the limited. Ai that exists today and we shove off the responsibility and we said well. I don't know you know I'm just the engineer. I built it But the is quote making its own decisions ends and like that's true to extent but as somebody who's designed the systems where we're setting optimization parameters. Were telling that telling it exactly what to do. We're kind of telling it how to do it. I would just want to add about the singularity to when we talk about. Ai Becoming smarter than humans. We still don't have a definition condition of intelligence for humans. We don't really know what it means to be intelligent. We do have a sense that there's certain people who think they know what it means is to be intelligent but we also know that there's many ways of being conscious. There's people who were neuro typical. There's people who are non-euro typical and all kinds of ways and so I don't think we can with with confidence ever say that we're GonNa make something smarter than people because we don't yet know how smart people are and let me to your point. Computers have faster processing power. They're never GONNA get tired. They're any smarter than us. In many ways. Sure I would just add that. We are starting to see more creative work done by. There was a great article Oakland Mother Jones a while ago about a is writing music and how is can now write melodies. That are as good as you know Ed Sheeran which you know. That's that's a very low bar but eventually they get to Katy Perry. I don't know but you know. I think that the real test is. When will there be a time when an? Ai writes a song or a book and is upset that it doesn't get credit like that's the real test for me. That's the real test is. When will there be an AI? That's like no I wrote this and the other thought I had is that Ted Chiang an amazing science fiction writer has been saying that a lot of our fears around is and like domination by evil evil supercomputers are actually our fears of corporations like that. We're just projecting that onto this. Mythical I am I replied Oh and this is science Friday from WNYC. I see studios so to your point about you know a rating music or reading novels. And that's pretty much a theme so I was teaching data science before I joined accenture. And you know my students had done projects like can I create an AI. That replicates classical music one of my students had done this and pretty much he created an ai that that created more Baki Bach or more more thirty. Mozart it kind of just copy. What's been done? Maybe tweak it a little but I think it would be truly novel for it to write something that had never been written or you know You couldn't really understand the origins of and that's something human beings do. Do not something we've been able to do with well. Let's see if we can get one last question here. We're seeing a lot of our technology used more and more rare earth metals lithium call ball. What is the eventual end goal for this? What company will control these rare earth minerals in the military? What if it is the mega corporations perations of the cyberpunk in Dystopia and so I think in today's narrative we absolutely do need to think about power structures and again that's the social scientists in me speaking do agree with the sentiment in we do live in a world in which there are the haves and the have nots and that's actually increasingly. He getting more and more divided. I actually was thinking about the the Guinan sentiment from earlier. The clip you were playing saying and I was thinking about two books that I would recommend anybody. WHO's interesting topic? Reading One Sarah Roberts book on content moderators called behind the screen and the other is by Mary. Gray and sit are three called ghosts work And both of those are about the hidden labor behind artificial intelligence and you know things that may seem like magic are actually things and we get further and further removed from this labor. There's very cheap labor or individuals in other your countries that do these tasks of coding images. So we can have computer vision or watching terrible videos on social media so your child doesn't and have to be exposed to it. Those two books I would highly recommend reading to really understand the power dynamics behind artificial intelligence. And actually we're the one percent. We're the ones that received the benefits. We most of US probably live in San Francisco or somewhere in the bay area. We get all the nice things and we don't get we don't have to see the the ugly side of sometimes how. This technology is made a lot of times win. Companies like say facebook or Google. Talk about automating. A lot of aspects of their search or of their moderation they actually are using people for that and they might be using little bits of automation here and there but but it really is the case. There's a ton of human labor and a lot of it is task work people who are working by the minute or by the five minutes. They're not unionized. They have no opportunity to organize with each other because they often don't see each other they just meet in forums or they get their work through various portals online and these are the people who we think are. Actually these are the people who are making sure that when you do a Google search that you actually get an accurate result or a result that resembles what you'd like to see and I think that's one of the great lessons of thinking about robot uprisings because of course we all know the robot uprising is really leads the worker uprising. It's really about people who are doing labor and being deprived of access to resources. Who just get sick of it and so I think it's so fascinating that we're living at this moment? When we hide human labor behind the idea of automation and then at the same time people feel threatened that automation is taking their jobs jobs? Even though it's really just people who are really underpaid. Who are taking your jobs? It's not actually automation quite yet. Well terrific discussion. I I want to thank my guest. Only knew its author of the future for another timeline co host. The podcast. Our opinions are correct. Charlie Jane Anders author of the city in the middle of the night and also co host of our opinions are correct and remind charter a data scientist and lead for responsible at accenture. Thank thank you all for coming by taking to deal with us. That's about all the time. We have our heartfelt thanks. Jonathan Blakely Ryan Davis Janet Lim Young Heiress Lawrence Summer Josh Cassidy and all the great folks at for hosting us and we also want to thank Ray Livingston and to everyone at another planet entertainment and to all the amazing staff here at the Sydney Goldstein Theater. Thank you for helping us out. Oh and let's give one last round of applause for Fox Tails Brigade who oblast out tonight. Thank you for coming San Francisco. I'm IRA PLATO. Drive safely and good night.

San Francisco AI Charlie Jane Anders United States Charlie Jane writer California Academy of Sciences scientist facebook Earth Ira Plato accenture San Francisco Science Sydney Goldstein Theater Captain Picard Commander Iraq
Why Fish Don't Exist

Radiolab

27:55 min | 1 year ago

Why Fish Don't Exist

"Listening to radio at WNYC picture the person you love the most picture them sitting on the couch eating cereal ranting about something totally charming like how it bothers them when people find their emails with a single initial instead of just taking those four extra key strokes to finish the job. Cast will get them. Chaos will crack them from the outside with a falling branch. Speeding car a bullet or unravel them from the inside with the mutiny of their very own cells. Chaos will rot your plants and kill your dog and rest your bike. It will decay your most precious memories topple. Your favorite cities wreck any sanctuary. You can ever build. It's not if it's when chaos is the only sure thing in this world the master that rules with all my scientists. Father taught me early that there is no escaping. The second law of thermodynamics entropy is only growing it can never be diminished. No matter what we do. A smart human accepts this truth. Smart human does not try to fight it but one spring day in nineteen. Oh six tall American man with a walrus moustache dared to challenge our master. Km jaboomer on. This is radio lab. And that was Lou Miller former radio. Labra CO founder of the PODCAST INVISIBILITY A- and now author reading from her brand new book. Why fish don't exist and She we talk about okay. Okay Lulu I love this book view weeks ago. I call her up to talk about it. It's funny and it's poignant and it's personal and it's historical and philosophical and it's also like kind of weirdly resonant with this moment were in right now In a way that is man them. Maybe I want to ask you about so yeah it is. I mean it is about like the book is I feel like self conscious being like it is. It is timely for our times. Because no but it's right there but it really is like deeply about to how to move forward when everything just get so messed up impossibly by the world and so the superstructure of the whole book is that you're telling the story so all of these kind of questions get filtered through this one guy As you tell the story of a guy named David Starr Jordan. So who is he? So he is a kind of obscure naturalist an ichthyologist so he specialized in fish and his from the eighteen hundreds and his life crossed into a little bit into the twentieth century. And he's an American Grew up in. New York was an Indiana for awhile and then ended up as actually the first president of Stanford He counts himself as having discovered he and his team having discovered a full fifth of fish known to humans in his day so over. Two thousand fish like Tom. I mean it's in most people's life to discover mo signed life to discover one species is huge How did you get interested in him? He was basically this offhand anecdote on a tour that I was getting of the California Academy of Sciences so Science Museum and there was just this detail about after the nineteen o six earthquake thousands of the fish. The jars broken the fish were separated and the person in charge of that collection instead of just giving up. He invented this technique of tying a label to fish so tying the name to the flesh and in that moment I thought. Oh what a foolish human like. This is his day job. He's attacked honest. His job is to order the unknown and so he so here. He goes for thirty years to do catching fish naming them putting them in jars docking second. Second second second and then boom an earthquake comes and destroys it and separates the names from the fish and to me. There's something there's a message in that like the method I read in that is in a world ruled by chaos. Any pursuit of order is inherently doomed and then years later When I had gone an messed up a lot of things in my life and was just in a place where I felt really lonely and unsure of the path ahead like literally that guy resurfaced in me like I was like who was. Oh my gosh. I'm like that guy with the needle. Am I being Kook specifically I was thinking about you know I was ahead. Had I had left radio lab you know and I was trying to write fiction and that wasn't going so hot and like I was. I had screwed up this relationship that I loved and I was trying to get him back by pining and by reaching out to him and by being patient and years and years. We're going by and I I just I wondered like am I just leading myself into real humiliation and danger and I think I am but then every now and then. I'd wonder about that guy. I'd be like well. Maybe this is the path. Maybe you just have to go through doubt to accomplish something and maybe that guy wasn't a full maybe actually things ended up okay for him. What happened to him? And that's what started. What I thought was an essay and then and then kind of spiraled into this whole book because then it just went somewhere way beyond my need for moral instruction. Wow yeah that's perfect sense. Yeah it's like Y- The your tour was a seed planted. That only bloomed. When you found yourself in that same darkness total just wanted to read him like a parable. Gotcha and so in the book you track his life through all of these ups and downs and I wonder if you can give a sketch of that parable of his life without giving too much away. Yeah David Starr. Jordan was born at the darkest time of the year which is perhaps why he became so preoccupied with the stars while husking corn on autumn evenings. He writes I became curious as to the names and significance of the celestial bodies. He could not just enjoy their twinkling. He found them a mess. He needed ordered known when he was about eight years old. He got his hands on an atlas of Astronomical Charts and began comparing what he saw on the page to what he saw of his head night by night he went creeping out of the house attempting to learn the name of every star and according to him it took him only five years to ring order to the entire night sky as a reward he chose star as his middle name and wore it proudly for the rest of his life having mastered the Celestial Deal David Starr Jordan turned to the terrestrial on his way home from school he began to ever so occasionally pluck a velvety blue pom pom or Silken orange star from the grass. Some he'd sniff and let fall to the ground but occasionally one would linger in his fingers and make it back to his bedroom where it would lie on his bed and taunt him with mysterious of pedals. He's this sweet nerdy boy who loves stars and then he loves flowers and eventually he loves fish and no one cares that his mom throws away his early maps and like he can't get a girl and can't get a job and he's just like but I love nature and how can you like. I just loved him and he devoted himself to what he called the hidden insignificant and he had learned that from a guy in his town who love nature and told him like the good naturalists notices the hidden and insignificant. Like that the dandelions butter cups will show you more about. Nature hit an order than the big showy roses and hibiscus or whatever and so that's kind of what he devoted himself to looking at and studying and I I love that idea and then on that quest he eventually started getting some traction and some success and he started to really rise and rise quickly. You get promoted. He gets a wife he gets kids he gets awards he becomes the first president of Stanford and that is when the earthquake hits. Imagine seeing thirty years of your life undone in one instant imagine whatever it is you do all day. Whatever it is you care about. Whatever you foolishly pick an product each day hoping against all signs that suggest otherwise that it matters. Imagine finding all the progress that you've made on that endeavor smashed at your feet. Those words go here. Fish were everywhere. Glass was strewn all over the floor. Flounders bashed further flat by fallen stone. Ills severed by shelves. Blowfish popped by shards of glass. There was a pungent smell of ethanol and corpse but far worse than any of the colonel damage was the existential for many of those specimens left intact hundreds of them nearly a thousand their holy name tags had scattered all over the lab floor. In just a few seconds genesis had been reversed. His meticulously named fish had become a mass of the unknown again and it wasn't just the earthquake like shortly before that his beloved daughter Barbara had died a little bit before that his wife had died. His first collection of fish actually got struck by lightning and burnt to the ground. Oh yeah so. This guy's life was just uncannily plagued by chaos and he never seemed phase like he just always kept going and that was what really drew me in about him because when I think about the chaos that rules us as always been really hard for me. And you're you're sort of introduced to this idea When you're little kid comes from your dad right. Yeah what was it that he would would tell you when you were young about chaos and nothing in our place in the order things I mean he just jumped really quickly to everything is meaningless like the minute we could understand words just like nothing means nothing and you'll soon be dead like everything was elector on our place in the world and how small it was and how insignificant we were and how there's no plan and there's No God and there's no magic and there's no destiny and there's not even cosmic justice really like try to be a decent human for sure that matters because because nothing matters actually how we treat each other is all that matters and I think he's a very joyful and he's a scientist and he's a very joyful funny life loving person And so I think as a little kid I made the calculation. Like okay if you believe these things you turn joyful like that like okay that he got that way and so then I would believe all the things but then slowly I'd be like Oh why am I so sad you know like or you know and I think it was this weird. Yeah so it was this weird. You know there's the carpet an there's like there is such a bright side to that stuff you know like if nothing matters. Go taste life and go be courageous. Do the thing that might fail because it doesn't matter. And but what do you do when that thought turns dark or when you're having a hard day thought really makes it worse. I think it's I don't know I found myself. I thought about the people in my life. I mean no radio lab with the history that it has had you know we. We've talked to Hook God. Millions of scientists and there are there is a particular cast of mind. That is exactly as you describe your dad. And also David Starr Jordan this kind of relentless optimist. Almost like somebody who embraces the meaninglessness of the world like an exuberant atheist? In a way. Like there's no meaning holy and isn't it marvellous? Let's hardy yeah. Let's just harder than exuberant. And I I hear you asking the question. Okay agree with you but I can't quite get to the phrase and isn't it marvellous? I can't quite get there. How do I get there like you enquiring that about David Starr Jordan through the book? Like how are you that way you are in the face of all of this chaos total that is so well put? Yeah like I hear you I hear you and then how do I get there and maybe I don't you know poor David Jordan sort of who? I just like through my just existential angst onto but I think I thought he might be. He might have an answer to like. How do you manufacture that that ability to go on on a dark day if you don't believe in anything in Lulu does sort of find an answer for what propelled David Starr Jordan? But it turns out that thing that belief also led him down a really dark path. And we'll go down that path with Lulu after the break. Hey this is florian calling from Linz in Austria. Radio lab is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan Foundation enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world one for mission about Sloan at www dot. Sloan Dot Org. Jad this is radio lab we have been talking to Lulu Miller about her new book. Y Fish don't exist which is about the chaos and meaningless -ness of the universe and particularly about a guy a scientist named David Starr Jordan who was plagued by that chaos but somehow found a way to push through it all. Yeah and I think the way that he figured out you know. The way that he kept going a key part was that he found purpose in ordering things. He thought that he was solving divine. Plan this hierarchy nature laid out by God and he would eventually you come to believe in Darwinism. Let go of that idea. But he still thought he was. Uncovering a sacred hierarchy. He just believed that this ordering of the natural world had purpose and that alone bullied him through really hard times but like that very belief in an order is also what started to make. Things really turned for him and we actually touched on this part of David Starr Jordan story in an episode that we did over the summer called unfit so here we go so this I guess so. This whole thing begins with a guy and his name is mark bold it is the story of the Supreme Court Case Buck v Bell which made it legal to sterilize people based on eugenics that is the idea that some categories of humans should not exist. Destroy goes into the history of that idea and also the very troubling ways. It is still with us today and David Starr Jordan at a certain point. Quick spoiler alert. If you haven't read the book yet he makes an appearance. So my dude was like one of the earliest loudest most powerful proponents of eugenics. You can see like in the late eighteen hundreds which is decades. Before most American EUGENICIST got the fever. He's slipping it into his courses at Stanford so he's like telling smart him. All these ideas that poverty is linked to the blood and can be exterminated trot these ideas out in front of like hundreds of politicians. And he says you know this is a matter of life and death for the nation and he said the hume the the republic will endure only as long as the human harvest is good. That's a horrible. And he wrote this book he called. He wrote a book called the Human Harvest. Holding it right here and in horrible title. It's it's and it's it's it's horrible inside. He tells to scare people he tells people about this town in Italy called Aosta which for about thirteen hundred. Years was this sort of refuge for people with disabilities or deformities. People send them there in the Church would take care of them and then they can often get married and they work the fields and have families in their helped by the church and some people see that as this beautiful tale of like helping societies role in her bowl and he went there and he wrote about it as a veritable chamber of horrors basically he says he describes the people living there and say they have less decency than the pig and he he like says that it's a different. It's a subspecies of human. And he says this is where you know. America's going to be going if we don't take action. Oh so your guy who sort of seemed to be like a guide for you at a meaninglessness All of a sudden you discover. He's a eugenicist. How did you have that sit with you? Oh I mean it was just utter revolt in like wanted to just throw my arms off him and then I felt a little laws but I think I started to try to really understand like what went so wrong here and after looking at tons of his stuff I actually think the sin wasn't so much the desire to find order in nature. I think it was his certainty. Like things really began to turn for the worse when he just white knuckled his beliefs that the categories between people are fixed and real and immutable and so like at the end of the book. The thing I really come away with is a real wariness of the categories around us. I think you know that's why I titled the Book The Way I did. Why fish don't exist I know it's kind of an obnoxious or maybe seemingly like the like urinating no and what. It's just yeah I think it could be. I don't know but yeah. I don't think it will spoil anything if I asked this question. But let's explain the title. Why don't fish exist? Like what does that mean even mean? Yeah Yeah I think the best way to do it as just to say okay. So like picture a Osaman and a lung fish which looks like a very fishy fish. Kind of big guest right. Yeah and then picture a cow and then just ask which of those two are most closely related and I think. You kind of intuitively a biology student. Would say oh. The Lung. Fish in the salmon are their most closely related. They're both finish near the one of the swim. Yes lobster tails. But then these taxonomic will will show you slowly. Why actually a cow and a lung fish are much more closely related because if you feel them and look inside the lung. Fish have what are almost lungs? They have a thing called an gladys they have a more similar structured heart. Basically you can see that along. Fish is more closely related to cow. And when you start to accept that that all the things that are kind of swimming in the water that some of them are more closely related to us than one another then you have to start to realize that fish is like this sloppy gerrymandered category of creatures some of which are very close to us some of which are very far that we smushed together. So it's like you at. That's completely wha- why couldn't you? Gerrymander does is it. Is it good as good word? So if I if I had in that direction why couldn't they just redraw the boundaries? In a way that makes more sense. I could say okay. We say the word fish but we probably mean five or six different things. And there's this category fish which have a whole lot to do with cows and then maybe us to and then there's this other kind. That's more fishy in some way. Like I mean I couldn't use redraw the boundaries as opposed to say there are none. Oh you totally you totally could and scientists have I mean the boundaries as you're talking about them would be the said the Cowie like fish are the of. This name is horrible but it's Like I don't think I can even do it. But it's Sarko Jury and then. There's the fishy fishy kind of salmon and bass fish like which are the acting up DRI. But then there's also The chronic writes the MIC Zini. And then there's tuna kits and so you can do that and you could make about five different groups and that's fine. I'm great with that like I think. I think it's just admitting that this term fish which feels so basic and in arguable is actually a term that we use to hide nuance and to keep ourselves more separate and that's what that's what matters to me because then it's like. Oh well what else do? I have wrong like you know. Even even the other day like these these little just ways that we value one life over the other in terms of who we're going to give a ventilator you know and these little judgments of like well if they're disabled maybe they don't deserve it and you know people there are some people crying out and saying hey look at. What are you saying right now? Like because I fit into this category which is to me analogous to fish because you think I am that far away from you. I don't get to live and so I think that's how I see. It alive is just like mistrust. The big technical terms and mistrust tiny basic terms because actually our understanding of our world is so just cartoonish limited. There's just so much wild this like. They're just so much waiting out there. Yeah I wonder if we could talk a little bit about I mean so. Can I tell you something? Cool of course always so okay. I'm like okay two nights ago Most I'm like hammering this like fishes so basic and it matters it matters. It matters that like you have to believe that it's not a thing like this is like This has been my like stick my stick because I'm just starting to say it finally has been my like driving weird obsession for ten freaking years like I cannot tell you how many is I've made dull over when they hear book and then I tried to tell them what it's about and then they like go like go after the cheese table because they don't they feel so worried and bad for like they're just okay so like I've been in this whole thinking about the danger of this word fish and and so two nights ago. I was in the bath of Mike Kid. Dude who's a year and a half years old and there's a little cardboard like like a little drawing of a fish by the door of our bathroom and my wife came in to say hi like we're splitting up days and she's working in the morning you know like anyway. So she she says hi and and he looks up He smiled at her. She gets the smile. I never get And then and then we look to the left and he just goes each and she and she was like fish and he like he and he said fish for the first time so he doesn't have that many words like this. I'm trying to count it out. I think it's his eleventh word. And and that should be the fall from innocent. That should be like the with. There is yeah there is he objected from the Garden of Eden. I spent ten years trying to show people the path back into like let go of fish. You get the goodies. And then he says it and that should be like I watched my son shoot his innocence. Dead like that should be the fall from grace in real time but instead I was just so proud like it was so cool like he was so sweet and and he's got it like I. You know what I don't know like but I just know that the feeling didn't line up with the meaning I was supposed to make Lou Miller. Her book is why fish don't exist. It is a great book. I don't say that lightly takes about Walter's for praising the segment I'm jat up and run radio lab will be back with you next week. Got A new word. What's what's that. She the first hear fish. This is colleen calling from South City Saint Louis Missouri. Radio lab is created by. Jad Album Rod with Robert College. And by Thorne Wheeler Dylan. Keith is our director sign. Shuji Lemberg is our executive producer are includes Simon Adler back Bressler. Rachel Cusak David Gavel Battle Hockey Tracy Hunt Matt guilty and McEwen. Lots of Nassir Sarah Corey area in West Pat Walters and molly webster with help from or w Harry Fortuna Sarah Sandbox Melissa or Tad Davis and Russell. Greg and our fact Checker is Michelle Harris.

David Starr Jordan scientist Stanford David Starr Lulu Miller president Lou Miller WNYC Labra David Jordan California Academy of Sciences Garden of Eden Alfred P Sloan Foundation CO founder New York Indiana Science Museum Robert College Astronomical Charts
Finding Extinct Animals (w/ Forrest Galante) and How Bacteria Cooperate to Survive

Curiosity Daily

12:18 min | 1 year ago

Finding Extinct Animals (w/ Forrest Galante) and How Bacteria Cooperate to Survive

"Hi we're here from curiosity DOT COM to help you get smarter in just a few minutes. I'm cody golf. And I'm Ashley Hamer Today. Learn about what happens when you find an extinct animal with special guests forest Galante. You'll also learn about how bacteria don't compete to survive. They cooperate less satisfy some curiosity what would you do with you. Found an animal that scientists said was extinct. We had the chance to ask that very question to someone who's no stranger to finding extinct. Animals forest has to Galante is the host of extinct or alive on Animal Planet. And if you like our podcast then you will love extinct or alive. I did not get paid to say that I I am saying that because the show is so good. It's about an explorer who searches for animals. That have been declared extinct. And here's forrest in the trailer for the season Premiere. I'm living my dream. Traveling to the most remote of the Galapagos Islands in the footsteps of Charles Darwin himself to hike a live volcano. Okay in search of the Fernandina Tortoise an animal that was only seen once over a hundred years ago. Will we make the scientific discovery for the ages. This is extinct or alive. Yes forest in a team of researchers set out to find the supposedly supposedly extinct Fernandina Tortoise. And they've found it like I said the show is awesome. We caught up with forest in the midst of even more of his adventures. But we secured a pretty decent connection so enjoy this exchange we got to have with him about the science of extinction. How does that happen? How do you end up holding an extinct species? ABC's in your hand. Why why do we declare something extinct when it's not here's the thing it's a big world and there's a lot of places to hide just because one other group of scientists is or a number of people have looked not found it doesn't mean it's not out there now? I don't want to downplay the severity of of extension by any means. But you know the typical Oh qualification for extinction is not being seen in thirty years right not being reported as being. They're not being captured photographed. Not just not no proof that the animal. It's been there for a span of thirty years now. The FERNANDINA tortoise not only was it not there for thirty years but only one other specimen of this species has ever been found one hundred hundred fourteen years ago so literally. This animal was already like the rarest of the rare. Do you know what I mean. There was one of them found one hundred fourteen years ago by the California Academy of Sciences. So we we were looking for a ghost and to go to this island Fernandina this hellish active volcano where he radiates out from under the ground and beats on you from overhead ahead with no cover and really this shards of glass light lager Iraq that you have to walk through for miles and miles. It was it was crazy and end these animals. There declared extinct for many different reasons but in this case because no one else is really willing to go to this island and work there. It's so difficult. The conditions are so oh hot the animals are so far elusive. The vegetation is so limited. It's it is like traveling to the moon slash. All in one mentioned what what it takes for an animal to be declared extinct. I'm wondering what it takes for. Natalie can be declared not extinct so like you know watching the first episode. You find some dungarees Andre some scat from an animal. Okay so you take some samples from that and then maybe you get blood samples later. Like what's the checklist you have to go through in order to like prove to the scientific community this is what we say it is and this is kind of like this around. You know it's still exists proof right. I mean and that proof can come in many forms for instance last year I uncovered footage of a leopard and Zanzibar now. The Zanzibar Leopard has been extinct for twenty five years. There's never been known to be another another species of leopard on that island in history. Meaning the only leopard that could be roaming. The ZANU island of Zanzibar should be Zanzibar Leopard but I- captured a single trail cam. I'm video of it and in the scientific world that's not genetic proof that's not Scott. That's not feces that it's not DNA. That is a video and that video you know is open to ridicule and what I mean by that is some people are saying. Well what if a African leopard was brought over in the black market and released on the island. How do we know it's not that so? It's hard because that animal although widely believed to be extinct based on our our video finding is not proven non extinct because we don't have the genetic material to support that and as a scientist I fully support those decisions but it's also at the same time somewhat discouraging when you go through the length that we go through are still not able to remove move the animal from from a silly list so to speak. Then you'd have to make a judgment as to what to do next in the case of the Fernandina tourists when we found fern she was malnourished. Oh she was underweight. She was dehydrated. She was completely stuck in this isolated patrick vegetation where to be quite honest living. Hell I mean it was boiling hot. She had nothing to each had. Nothing drink she was miserable. And so we made the decision myself and two other scientists from the glop goes to take her to the Fausto Lorena Breeding facility very same facility that home the last iconic Econo- Conservation Lonesome George and when we moved her there. That in itself created a huge buzz because all of a sudden millions of dollars were released in conservation funding. You know return turn. Efforts are being planned for next month. There's all these things that came about bringing her and on an individual level earn gained seven or eight pounds and she wouldn't leave her water dish for two weeks leaks because she was so happy to see water for the first time and what may have been years. I mean it's just like win win in every sense and because I have all the support all these resources it really helps forest found found another supposedly extinct animal last week so you do not want to miss his adventures this season. You can catch extinct or live Wednesdays at nine pm Eastern on Animal Planet and here in the US you can catch all of season one on animal planet go. It's so good that's awesome. Today's episode is sponsored by no Emmy. Sometimes it feels like finding ending affordable luxury jewelry. That's not overpriced is about as hard as finding an extinct animal. That's why no emmy cut out the middleman to deliver exceptional products without the exorbitant orbited Markup Noemi Designs and manufacturers everything in house and they only sell directly to consumers so you get the finest quality jewelry and save an average of fifty percent compared to other luxury brands Noemi also offers a lifetime warranty and free shipping and returns on every product including engravings and custom some designs and every piece comes authenticity. Guaranteed with an I G I certificate detailing color clarity and praised value Noemi also has a five star rating across across thousands of online reviews. See No you'll be in pretty good hands. If you're looking for the finest quality jewelry from a luxury brand you can trust. Look no further. Go to hello. Oh no emmy dot com slash curiosity to see their collections. And get fifty dollars off your first purchase with Promo Code curiosity. That's an even better deal on top spending a fraction of what you'd pay for other luxury brands. Just go to H. E. L. L. O. N. E. M. I. E. dot com slash curiosity. And don't forget to use Promo code curiosity acidy for fifty dollars off your first purchase. According to New Research Darwin's idea of survival of the fittest may not hold up when it comes to bacteria that that is in fact for at least one group of bacteria. The mantra is more like survival of the friendliest because these bacteria actually cooperate and understanding standing how they interact in. Groups has the potential to create a whole new area in a science generally deals with single strains of bacteria one at a time researchers have studied lead thousands of combinations of bacteria over the past several years to see how they act when they're together in a confined area and over that time it's become clear the bacteria cooperate eight to survive. They'd rather unite against external threats like antibiotics than fight against each other one way scientists. Figured this out is by isolating bacteria from a small corn husk where they were forced to fight for space. The researchers measured bacterial biofilm. which is a slimy protective layer that shields bacteria from external threats like antibiotics or predators? When bacteria are healthy they produce more biofilm and become stronger and more resilient time after time? The researchers searchers observed the same result instead of the strongest bacteria out competing the others in biofilm production. The bacteria actually allowed space for the weakest guest so they could grow better than they would have on their own at the same time the researchers could see that the bacteria split up laborious tasks by shutting down unnecessary very mechanisms and sharing them with their neighbours on top of all that when bacteria cooperate and help each other just like humans they actually take group synergy to a whole new level by expressing properties. That aren't even possible when they're alone when they're together totally new features can suddenly emerge seems like on top of the implications for biotechnology. Humans could learn a lot from the way bacteria cooperate. Like my mother always used to say. Why can't you be more like that? Bacteria man always. They're just always giving us a bad name always by the way. My mom does not talk like that for the record before we wrap up. We wanted to say thank you because of your vote. Curiosity daily is a finalist for the best technology and science podcast in the twenty one thousand nine discover pogs awards words. Yeah your nominations helped us get there and if you still love our show then we have one more favorite ask view. Please vote for us yet. We are up against just some insanely popular. So we really need your vote to receive some recognition just visit awards dot discover pods dot com. And you'll find finest in the category of best technology and science podcast. Voting is open through November eighteenth. So there's not a lot of time again that's awards discover PODS DOT COM. We'll also put a link in today's show notes and thanks again. So what got US excited about. Today's episode I mean force. Galante is literally seeking out species of animals calls that are supposed to be extinct. I can't imagine how someone can pitch a TV show and go. Hey I'm gonNA find animals that don't exist and I'm GonNa do it once an episode. How do you pitch that? TV Show and how do you get he did it. He's amazing he did it and he has found a bunch of animals that we thought were extinct asked incredible you actually said in part interview that didn't make the final cut of today's episode. I'm like the Haydn seek champion of the world. That's perfect it's great illegit. I like I said if you like this podcast. You will love this show because it's just so like densely packed with lessons from biology and you do the reality. TV stuff too well. We're crawling on an active volcano to find this but like it's still cool and very educational we also learned that bacteria compete to survive which is good news for for bacteria not such good news for those of us who want to clean their bathrooms. They they worked together to stain your bathtub. They sure do. Oh and one more quick thing before we sign off you know what came out yesterday. Ashley yes I do I just listen to it was it in episode of clear. INDIVID with Alan alda. It was with two exceptionally engaging guests. Were they exceptionally curious. They were very curious. Curious area on a daily basis daily basis unbelievable. So yeah. That's pretty cool Ashley and I were deed guests on Alan alda's podcast. It was amazing. And you can listen to Alan ALDA's interview with us right now on the clear and vivid podcast with Alan alda and we know that if you love science which you obviously do so you will love clear and vivid so go check that out. We'll put a link to it in today's show notes to this story was written by Michael. SCO From University of Copenhagen for Futurity and edited by Ashley. Hamer WHO's the managing editor for a curiosity DOT COM script. Writing was by Cody Gov and Sonya Hodgin. This podcast was produced and edited by cody. Gov Join US again tomorrow to learn something new in just a a

scientist Ashley Hamer Alan alda FERNANDINA Galante DOT COM Emmy Cody Gov Zanzibar Galapagos Islands forrest California Academy of Sciences Charles Darwin Zanzibar US value Noemi underweight ABC Iraq
Scorpiology (SCORPIONS) with Lauren Esposito

Ologies

1:13:30 hr | 2 years ago

Scorpiology (SCORPIONS) with Lauren Esposito

"Oh, hey, it's lady in front of you in the checkout with twenty six items who doesn't realize she's in the express lane in his fully oblivious to your glares alley ward back with another episode of Allah, allergies. So congrats for not skipping this one. You did it if it's in auto play, and you're like new duplicitous scorpion. One to lay bitch. It's playing you're in this. Now, don't stop don't. This one is amazing. I promise that there are facts in this episode. You will drop in conversation, and it will make you on fucking forgettable. Okay. I really quick thank you patrons for making the show possible via patriot dot com slash allergies for as little as a dollar a month. You can submit questions to Allah GIS and buckle the hell up because I'm about to record like ten episodes in the next few weeks. And there are so many questions you can submit so hop on board. Thank you to everyone in al-ajiz merch available at Allie word dot com and for tagging all Jews merch. So I can reposted on Mondays. Also, thanks to everyone. Who makes sure that they are subscribed. And leaves a rating and review. You know? I read them I pick a fresh on each week this one Erica pataca says I've always loved science and learning about the crazy world we live in. But I bought into the idea that scientists were all super brainy people in lab coats, who preferred sterile labs to dealing with normal people. Where did I get that idea from not only do I love all the subjects, but each Allah just is so darn down to earth and knowledgeable and excited and someone I would love to nerd out. With over a beer this podcast fills the role of the scholastic book fair from minority elementary school days. Erica puff. Thank you for reminding me of the soft cover paradise that was the scholastic book fair. Okay. Scorpio Aji hell to the. Yes. This is a real Allah g it's a subset of Iraq. -nology arachnids in scorpion comes from the Greek for are you ready fitness for scorpion. Okay. That is not something that made me say, oh my God. All right. So this Allah gist amid under very very weird circumstances two years ago in a dusty field. In the middle of nowhere at a festival for burning man types, while we were both speaking on a panel about science, we were a little wide eyed and just kinda sussing things out. I dug her immediately. I've wanted her on for so long scheduling was difficult, but she was in LA for a five hundred queer scientists conference in to accept the two thousand nineteen Walt Westbourne ward for her support that she provides LGBTQ people in stem. This is where we're gonna throw in some air horns means air horns for that. Now, I went to her hotel just giddily, and I asked her one million questions, we covered myths about scorpions what big pinchers mean movie magic hell lethal are these critters whereas there, but do they make out with each other parables about scorpions glow in the dark magic, getting stung. And also, why hiding under a rock is beneficial for some insects, but can be very difficult for people emotionally so bust out your black light, keep your ears onward for stem, advocate, science, communicator, researcher, expedition leader and curator at the California academy of sciences Scorpio gist. Dr Lauren Esposito. Okay. So you are I looked this up urine, Iraq knowledge issed? But I saw that. There is a subset. That is Scorpio legiti. There is for Fiala do. So I'm I'm technically speaking Scorpio Logist when adventure in her bottom, my horizons and be in Iraq Nala, just okay? Saudi more other kinds of arachnids aside from scorpion some abutting technologists. He. Scorpio just your business cards should say accomplished Scorpio legit. Now, I met you a couple years ago in the desserts at a festival symbiosis festival was I was like shell shocked. I think. I don't know what's going on. There's so many people pretty sure they're all high on drugs. There were so few pants and shirts worn. I remember in the middle was it in the middle of our panel. Or was it? I give it like another little talk. So I can't remember which one it was. But like a fully naked guy. Just walk into the tent, and he was so high and he just walked up to the front of the station with just standing there like mesmerized like fully naked. It was one of the one of the stranger places, I think we've communicated science, but it's good, right? Like, it's like take like you got you got to get it in there whenever you can if you've got a captive audience toxin about side. I remember meeting you, and you you told me you're a scorpion expert, and I was like how many scorpion experts are there. And you're like not many an eye of bragged about you, so many times, I met a scorpion expert. There's like ten in the world. How many people study scorpions with the depth that you do those definitely not many of us. And I would say like people who have like a PHD in scorpions a dozen mows. My God are you ever in the same room? Rarely yes. Scorpion. Biologists. I think are like kinda like scorpions like they're like not really particularly keen on meeting each other like slightly combative, but incredibly intelligent and persistent. I mean present company included guess what drew to scorpions? This is such a complicated question. Like, nothing, really. It was kind of like serendipity. I grew up. In the in the desert southwest. So I saw scorpion. Certainly as a kid. But I wasn't particularly like intrigued or wanting to dedicate my life to the study of these animals, and then I, but I was like super Endon nature and I loved like turning over all the pavers and my mom's garden and looking for colleges and ear wigs, which she didn't love. But also, especially didn't love when I brought them inside alive. And my mom's a biologist and eventually she taught me how to make a killing jar. So that instead of bringing her live cockroaches. That would bring her euthanized. Cockroaches. What is it killing jars it just like a cotton ball with Eno cotton knows a CONMEBOL fingernail polish remover in like an old peanut butter jar. Oh my God. It sounds a killing jar sounds so much more grotesque and morbid. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I can't take this killing jar bottom the garden. No. But it's and it's euthanasia it's like a humane way of quickly euthanizing insects. And so I'm on miata make one of these. And and I would like collect insects from the garden and make it inside collection and old eg cartons who and but then I grew up in like forgot that I liked that stuff because I was a teenager and was mostly into like doing what teenagers do cause trouble. I guess. Yeah. Like like, rebel rousing and getting on people's lawns turning up the music too loud. Yeah. Toilet papering and things and and then like halfway through college. I I took an entomologist class. And it was like oh my God. I love this. And then I applied for a summer internship at the American Museum in natural history. Not knowing it was going to be an internship setting scorpions, which it was and and I got it, and I showed up and they like dumped me in the lap of a new curator at the American Museum. Lauren's of print Dini. Who would later become my PHD advisor. Oh, so she and this new curator spent the summer figuring out a research system, and then for newbie Lauren, the New York City subway system, probably and then when the internship is over she realized she loved science, but she didn't want to go to medical school. Like, she thought she'd rather be outdoors and studying nature. So she thought graduate school. So she contacted her curator from the internship. And he said, you know, come back get your PHD working with me in these frigging score always sick. And she was like toy I think that was the compo like move to New York and do a PHD like absolute he'll do that are there even scorpions into your. No, there's no scorpions in New York on at all. I mean, there's a museum full of of of probably the world's greatest collection of scorpions, but there's certainly no living scorpions. But the good news is you can hop on a plane from New York and get just about anywhere in the world relatively quickly. And I did it was scorpions or die which I feel like scorpions does they do have a high stakes reputation. Pretty much like that. I think scorpions like kinda like even more so than spiders, everybody's like, oh, they're they're definitely going to kill you a leisure any encounter will be lethal for you for. Sure. Yeah. If you see a scorpion from six feet away, you will drop dead later that day, even if you have no contact it's going to jump across the room and go flying like like wings are going to come out of the body. And it will try to kill you. No matter what a ruthless secretive and highly organized. They are not we will address this later know what point when you were studying them. Did you say holy shit. These are cool. You know, it was really started. When I was doing that undergraduate internship, and I realized like men scorpions are amazing for so many reasons who how'd you get ready for this. Oh, hot damn, okay. Here we go. Here we go one. They were the first terrestrial arthropods predators. So before anything else was on land scorpions came on land. These little beasts they weren't little then they were like the ancestors of scorpions. We're like a meat. Or they were huge three feet. Yeah. Three feet. Maybe even bigger maybe five in some cases, that's crazy. And they were these like underwater marine predators that were ruling the oceans at the time. And and eventually some people have hypothesized that because we've found these ancient trackways alongside rivers of scorpions in their little footprints imbedded in rock while it was mud that turned into rock over time. And and they've hypothesize that they were actually became amphibious. And we're coming up on the land to eat spawning fish all in grizzlies. Right. You're not grizzlies like come in the river and eat the spawning fish. They were doing the same thing. But they were like the size of grizzlies, and they were scorpions comes to scorpions the bigger the better. Oh my God. I literally am having like vertigo like I can't just imagining a scorpion the size of like a kiddie pool. Just just hurt. Like crazy. Like an alligator basically like an alligator they were these they were called your ripped or Zan sisters of score. Beans, and eventually the gills that they had to breathe underwater were internalized and not allowed them to live on land. And so the scorpions of today, basically, look identical to the scorpions of four hundred and fifty million years ago. So they've been honors forever. Right. So we can ask all kinds of crazy questions about what happened on earth in the last four hundred and fifty million years by trying to understand that the of luminary history of scorpions. And so how do you think they got Littler Littler? Well, there's a the the main driving factor behind why insects and arachnids are as big as they used to be as big as the fossils. We find is the oxygen percentage in in the air and atmosphere, oh because scorpions, and spiders and insects all basically passively respond. So they don't they don't have lungs where the breathing in and out, and they don't have a closed circulatory systems. They just kind of have blood that like Paul gets pumped around by heart just open up in their body. And and to the rate. At which oxygen gets to the older tissues that they need for walking around and moving in eating and doing all the things is limited by how much concentration of oxygen. There is in the air and over time the oxygen concentrations, gone down. So learn explain that when life started coming on land, and there were more and more air-breathing critters, the carbon dioxide output increased and the oxygen levels went down. So when you have less fuel you downsize, so think training in a Hummer for Fiat, but slowly as a result of evolution and all of your relatives dying off before you. Okay. So part from the last four hundred fifty million years of history. Where can we find scorpions? And so where do scorpions live clearly, not New York City only still have basically everywhere that that there's not major freezes for long parts of the year. Okay. So like like imagine a place school, and there's probably scorpions they're they're not in an article because there's really nothing. I mean. Aside from like penguins again things in the ocean. I'm there's not much in Antarctica bacteria. Also, not in the Arctic because it's cold and snow on the ground all year round. But they are in places like the Alps. So you wouldn't expect them to be an Alps or like the the upper reaches of the Andes like in Argentina there scorpions, the my real area of specialty is the Neo tropic? So I'll go to the Caribbean central America South America, but I've been to places like islands off the coast of of Equatorial Africa, south East Asia. I don't know. I felt like all over the world looking for those little buggers at the point when I decided to do a PHD. I think that that was part of the intrigue for me was that there was this potential to travel the world doing science and incorporating two things that I love which is travelling in science. But you know, it's kind of funny is like recently. I remembered this thing that happened Munoz a kid, and it was in the sixth grade, and I had a homeroom teacher who gave us assignment. And this to write an essay about what you wanna do. When you grow up like pretty straightforward, right? I feel like that happens all the time in school. But I was so upset about it. Because I didn't know what I wanted to be an like, I I remember even like crying over this assignment. Because it was like so frustrating for me to that. I had to write what like no at this age of. I don't know. How old are you? Yeah. What I should want. What I should do. When I grow up. I knew lots of things I didn't want to do. But I didn't know what I did want to do. And eventually I settled on. I wasn't sure. But I knew I either wanted to be a rocket scientist or a Hobo. And I mean Hobo in the sense of like like train travelling seeing the world Hobo, just free Whalen quick aside to learn you on some Hobo facts. Cool cool. Okay. So the word Hobo is of unknown origin, but it may be from homeward bound like Hobo or homeless boy Hobo or from homeboy, meaning like a farmhand who had travel riding the rails looking for jobs. Can you just tell you a little bit more about? Okay, great. So they had specialized lingo, such as for example to flip meant to board a moving train, and a mulligan is a type of community stew created by several hobos, combining whatever food they had into one big pot. Also a jungle was a Hobo camp. And catch the westbound meant to die is that not poetry catching the westbound. Also, they made a code of conduct for hobos at the national Hobo convention in eighteen eighty nine and the code of Khan. Is legit starting with one decide your own life. Don't let another person run or rule you to when in town always respect the local law and officials try to be a gentleman at all times sexist, but a good rule. Three. Don't take advantage of someone who is in a vulnerable situation, locals or other hobos for always trying to find work, even if temporary and always seek out jobs. Nobody wants they also had codes of conduct to stay clean to report anyone who harmed children. We should all be as decent as hobos. Also. They had these symbols that they would leave to guide other hobos. This led me to a webpage for the national cryptologic museum in Maryland, which yes, I now have to do a cryptology episode so bad. Okay. So in closing hobos, clean kindly, respectful, folks, who traveled for work and saw the land. And so for Lauren is either that or be a rocket scientist. And I feel like actually I'm like hit that that like. Intersection. You know, like I'm doing science I'm like using like like technological tools like genetics genomics and at the same time traveling the world, so I am exactly in the middle of rocket scientists. And hope oh my God. Like nailed it. I know it tell me a little bit about the basic structure of a scorpion. Like, what are we dealing with? Because I feel like they got crab in the front. They got snake face in the back with the venom like they got the business about what's it's like a mullet. Right. So so scorpions like all arachnids have have two primary body parts. They have a a pro Soma which is like the head, and they have a Pistole Somo, which is like the body. So it picture a spider. There's two main chunks, but scorpions of this extra little business. And which is the tail and their pro Soma an episode mar sort of fuse. So so it's not like a real delineation between the head and the body and then up in the front. They have two pairs of appendages they have Caseri which are their mouth parts, and they have these chewing mouth parts that they. A us basically to like rip up. Meets eighties room meet before they get it in down the gullet. And then they have claws that they use mostly for for grabbing onto prey like in some scorpions. They just use the clause to to grab their prey they don't ever actually need to sing them because they have these big chunky clause like picture. Those those big black emperor's Gordon's that you see in the movies all the time. They have these huge claws up front, and they almost never use their tail in their venoms, not very toxic. But other scorpions have these really slender thin claws. And they really just use those for manipulating prey items and mostly use the tail and really powerful super toxic venom for disabling their prey and escaping predators. Stabby stabbing clause in the front tail on the back in the very end of the tail is the stinger and the stinger is a looks kind of like a bulb Michael bulb. And at the end of that is a hypodermic needle got an inside of the bulb is a layer of secretaries' cells of cells that secrete toxins, and it's surrounded by muscle that allows them to squeeze those toxins out of the cells in into the hypodermic needle that these inject into their prey, okay? So their venom bulb is kind of like one of those little squirt. He things you jam into your ear hole to flush out funky chunks only. It's a nerve toxin made by DNA that they probably had for something else. But evolve. It to become venom. So what is in this? Exactly. But the really crazy thing is that their venom is not just one thing. It's actually complex cocktail of all sorts of different components, and they have things like anti-microbials in their enzymes that break open tissue and help them digest. And then they also have these complex neuro peptides neuropeptide are basically things that when they interact with your nervous system. Tell your nerves to either send a signal when there's not supposed to be sending a cycle or the inhibit. The transmission of signals between cells neuro peptides by the by are chains of amino acids that form these protein like molecules that your nervous system uses to communicate and the neuro peptides bind to receptors and activate a bunch of events inside a neuron, the neuro peptides in venom can Jack that system by cutting off the neurons from talking to each other or sending signals when they shouldn't be talking. So venom is like when someone grabs your phone. And starts deeming people it shouldn't or withholding text from your boss. Okay. What if you're like, a cricket, and you don't have a boss or phone who what does that do if you're prey. Yeah. So if you're prey, what am I do is disabled you keep you from moving send you into a seizure. Really just disc incapacitate you very quickly. So that you can be eaten make baby scorpions with the energy that you get from your prey. But if you're a predator what it does is it since paint signals to your brain telling your brain that you're on fire. Sale. Oh my God. When you really not and not that pause that signal interruption caused by the scorpion. Venom allows the scorpion a moment to escape from the pray while the predators reacting to this signal that it's forcing spotty to send to it self. What types of scorpions have venom that is powerful enough to say incapacitate like a dog or a human like how much do they get a bad rep? Well, they get a pretty big bad rep. I would say overall there's like so far we've discovered about twenty five hundred species of scorpions give or take and about twenty five of those are something that our concern for a healthy human. So and there's you know, maybe a dozen or two more that are concerned for people that have compromised immune system or are elderly or or very young. So the majority of scorpions I means like less than ten percent of all scorpions are something that are really dangerous that we need to be worried about. But that being said all scorpions do have a stinger and they can job it into your body, and they can inject things that are in their venom. But oftentimes those things are more mild than a beating or wasps seeing. Oh, okay. What happens if you do get stung by being? Well, has it ever happened to you? It's happened one time for a long time. I got to say, no, okay. I'm a professional. I take precaution suit of armor. But like a year ago now. Yeah. Actually almost exactly one year ago. I was at this event. And I was passing scorpions around that I had found in the forest a little children. For them to hold as one does. And it like I was passing a scorpion from one child to another. And it got grumpy like I think it'd had too many grubby kid hands on it. And it stung me. And I was like almost confused when it was thinking me, I was like what are you doing because at handled this kind of scorpions like many many times, it says scorpion called the Pacific, redwoods scorpion. Or Pacific forest scorpion. We have them all throughout the bay area. Northward? And I was like what is what is it? What are you doing? What's happening here? This is not normal. And then, you know, my finger kind of throbbed for maybe ten or fifteen minutes and it felt like if I had jammed a thumb talk in my finger. You know, like, it'd be JAMA thumb talking your finger finger throbs, but then it went away and nothing goes, no, long term consequences. Let me step back and say there's two major groups of scorpions there's a group called the booth scorpions. It's it's one of the oldest lineages of scorpions, and it's also has the greatest number of species compared to all the other lineages and those. Ones all make neuro toxins that affect mammals. So they they make neuro-toxins that can interact with our nervous system. Again. These are the booth IDs, and it looked everywhere to find out where the name booth it comes from. And I think it's from the Greek for ox or cow because their stings were thought to be real calculus again booth hits. And so all of those have more painful sting or in the ones that are potentially lethal to humans belong to that group the booth. It's oh, and then all the other scorpions are none Boothroyd's all the other groups of scorpions and all those guys typically don't make neuro-toxins that affect mammal nervous systems, but considering the reputation of scorpions they do carry some dramatic names like the black spitting thick tailed scorpion. Or the man killer or death stalker. These kind of sound like nineteen seventies carnival rides so bitch PS when I googled scorpions with cool names. I pulled up an article entitled no joke from a baby blog ten. Fierce baby names for your Scorpio. Given I am a Scorpio. I had to read it and among the suggestions for your autumn infant who will undoubtedly caused drama are the name's Crispin evening steel and Knicks not unlike scorpion venom itself this article caused some involuntary sweating and gagging. But scientific names are jumped up by the scientists that I recognized that species as being a new species have you gotten to name any have Yang. We discover new scorpions all the time. There's like maybe fifty or so added a year to my God. And all age, how do you decide at a name? Well, different people have different approaches and a name is really considered an like something in honor of two if you use a person or thing you're naming and honor of that person or that thing and oftentimes people take the approach where they're like naming it something that describes its physical attributes. So the name has like Latin words for. Slender or pale or yellow or whatever other people use names that come from indigenous languages where they're found which is one of the things methods. I like to use because I feel like it's it's honoring the place where the scorpion is from and integrating the indigenous knowledge, that's great asked me. How many species are discovered? How many none we could fix that you want? Can I come to the desert just turn over some rocks? Do we know this guy yet my favorite place is at tropical jungle. So you could come in tropical jungle and do that. Oh my God. It's just sign up just large luggage. Put me in it. Oh my God. Now when you're discovering scorpions, I understand that there are black lights involved there are. Yeah. So tell me everything about why they fluorescent under black lights every time. I see it. I feel like I'm looking at like Bob Marley poster. And I'm on drugs in college. Like, what's happening? Trippy so scorpion. All score beans Flores. It's a trait. Universals scorpions. The what flourescence means basically is that the that there's a pigment in the skeleton of scorpions as embedded in there. It's called core. Merman suicide note Cormoran is often found in plants, and according to this we Kapadia pros. It has quote, a sweet odor resembling the scent of newly mown hay. It's also found in Cassius cinnamon in fake vanilla and in perfumes. Oh, and it makes venomous arthropods glow. Like ravers also PS. I never did trucks in college. I was straight edge cough with like five jobs and a bunch of science lab homework. But my roommates owned a six foot Bong so-. I observed a lot of black light staring anyway, Kormoran what it does is. It takes in light waves just from light ambient light, and it excites. Those white those light waves and then protects them back at a higher wave link. So that's what causes the fluorescence. It's not like sh- like reflection, or it's actually like an expectation of light beams. And so they all floor us. This this bright like neon toxic sludge green under ultraviolet light. And we don't really know why they have this feature. There's there's a few possibilities one. It's just a byproduct of how their Exo skeleton forms like the the process in which they formed their exit skeleton creates a fluorescence or alternatively it has like a function that that's helpful for them. And there's a few possibilities one. That's been proposed is that it's a whole body light detection system. Oh my God. It allows them to detect when there's light which I think could very well be. But also they have is. So typically, they can see if there's light outside or not. So it could be another function as well. The other functions that have been thought up our that. It's a way. To tell other animals that they're dangerous like these are black in yellow and not black and yellow is like a sign that they're dangerous scorpions are active at night and at night colors. Don't show up very well. And things that are active at night can't see very well in color. So so many things that are that are doing things at night have have evolved. Greater UV capabilities of flowers that bloom at night have UV pattern that attracts pollinators. So scorpions that are active at night might wanna you've pattern to say. Hey, wait, I'm dangerous, and you should stay away from me like a warning color or they're actually trying to mimic something else like a flower and attract things so that they can eat them. Oh my God. So those are all the possibilities to think that their ancient ancestors that were shine Norma's could Flores while there is some a geologist mentioned that there's some really well preserved fossils that preserved cuticle and the cuticle Flora's. Oh my God. So side note this. Is due to their glowing highly layer in their access skeleton. Also, did you know that horseshoe crabs also glow under UV light? And so two proteins in human saliva sweat urine. Semen just in case you like checking hotel rooms for secretions, how many black light? Flashlights? Do you have a you know, what I feel like I disliked go through 'em like like candy like I can't even keep track of one percent of the time. But I do have two that are really nice ones that I spent a lot of money buying from a company that like crafts them in those ones are my babies. I know where they are at all times if someone wanted to go out and look for critters at night. Do you think getting a black light interest things out? Yeah. I'm in the like in some places. It's all my Home Depot. Didn't go on a scorpion hunt. And the things the trick is to go at night because one you can't really see anything with the black light during the day. 'cause it's not a very bright of wavelength of light. Look it's washed out by daylight and twos. Scorpions? Doc journal. So they're active at night not not during the day. And in case you're looking for a black light bug hunt or a guest that splatter game in your hotel. You can get a UV flashlight for around ten bucks. But then I always curious as to how much a really good one costs, and I searched on Amazon the highest to lowest price there was one on there. It's four hundred watt ultra violent LED Amidror. It's six grand. And then they jumped down to a couple hundreds. Also, this point we talked a little bit about the zodiac sign for Scorpio's. When like, and it's like, okay. If you were born a certain time of the year, there's a connect the dots with some stars. It really could have been anything. Sure does the constellation look a little bit like a scorpion. Maybe it also looks kind of like a Bissau's steam cleaner. So who knows instead of a Scorpio I could've just been like a carpet cleaner. Now, what about scorpions in movies or pop culture? Is there any movie that really does a good job with scorpions or one that really gets your goat? I'm like, I feel like there are always the the problem have of movies and scorpions is that they're always very accurate. Okay. Like why in every single movie does it have to be the emperor score being emperor scorpions or from tropical Africa? They must definitely do. Not live in deserts. There's definitely no black scorpions living in a like, white, sandy desert doesn't exist. They want to blend in with their environment. They're not trying to stand out like black on white background. So why why I don't understand it? Like can they consult with a biologist and figure out what the appropriate colored species for the place that they're shooting? Are they emperor scorpions easier to handle? Yeah. I mean, the really common in the pet trade and actually for that reason, they're the only scorpion that's considered to be threatened or endangered because they've been heart like overharvested for for the petrified because all those movies, you know. So some researchers think scorpion. Venom may have cancer fighting properties or could be used to develop like anti-inflammatory drugs. In it's reported that a gallon of scorpion. Venom is worth. Are. You ready? Thirty nine million dollars thirty million dollars in a year or two ago. There was this get rich quick scheme that started to spread in the Middle East countries. Like Iran was just promising a fortune to anyone who could poach or raise and milk scorpions of their venom. But it's turned out to be a total bust. So labs are not interested in amateur. Venom milkers. So what are they gonna do with all these scorpions? Now, I guess just released them they're saying or perhaps seldom is food scorpions can be like eating tiny land lobsters. But before you fasten a postage stamp sized tiny plastic bib. Dr Esposito says that most scorpions don't even reach sexual maturity until the age of five or six so she gets a little sad thinking about crunching and munching them like they can live to be twenty five. Yeah, I feel like lay off the scorpions yelich lately off. And the other thing about scorpions that I always that. I'm that. I was struck by one. I I learned about them is that they the mums give birth to live babies. That was my next question. I've seen a picture of scorpions that are just have a backpack full of baby scorpions. Yeah. What is happening there? Yes. So they get so while they're courtship starts by the what we call Padre. Do they actually dance they do like a ballroom dancer, actually, quite a refined animals to the males approach females and grab onto their hand. They face her and grab onto her hands. And then they do this like dance like back and forth where he like leads her back and forth. And then he does this thing called collateral massage. Which means he's like kind of touching her hit her mouth parts with his mouth parts as visit a scorpion kissing and sometimes in some species, the male will sting the female in Lau particular place on their body. And we don't know what they're doing. They're probably inject. Eating some sort of fair mown or some kind of slight very mild sedative to keep on getting eaten because usually they're smaller. Oh my God. And if he does the dance, well, she likes his moves. She likes his ballroom, dancing, then he'll deposit. This this gelatinous stock on the ground. It's like a thing made out of like jelly sort of material and at the top of it. He puts a little sperm packet. And then he leads her over and she she'll pick it up with her genital opening. Oh my God. And then she stores, the sperm and the specialists structure in her body and decides wind she won't sit, and so many herself and also with whose sperm does she have different pockets like this is jewel like this is whatever it's earlier how they like differentiate once they've been in some native if they have a way to separate the packets, or if the packet sort of stay that part is. On unclear their business. But at the point when she does decide so eight herself, she has this complex over uterus system. It looks almost in many species, it looks almost kind of like a figure eight and there's little spaces within that over uterus where the embryos start to develop and once they be partition age. She gives birth just station period. You ask seven to nine months similar to a human or up to fourteen months for emperor scorpions just think they have eight ankles that could swell up walking around pregnant, what troopers some female scorpions are just pregnant most of the time just most other life kinda like my Catholic grandma who had eleven children and a little baby scorpions come out of her birth canal. Oh my God. Is that the Paris or what is it? Call on his verse of a vigorous since clearly a word, I read more than I did for as an ova VIP office, which is where you. Internalize eggs when the eggs hatch new give birth, but those are fully VIP bre, so they're actually like connect like same as as humans kind of their their the embryos are connected to the mom via of membrane to receiving nutrition directly from her. And then they come out in. They're they're kind of in like a amniotic sac sort of an it's clear and the once they give birth the babies break the sack and climb up onto her arms and while she's giving birth. She does this thing called birth basket where she arches her back up because the opening is like on their stomach. She arches her backup and makes her arms like into like oh circle. Like kind of touches her hands together and makes a little circle so low crawl up her hands onto her back. And then they'll stay up there for. Depends on the species, but those step there until they've malted for the first time, so they've shed their excess skeleton and gotten a little bigger and in that first period, the kind of almost like a little larval still like they don't look like a normal scorpion. But as soon as they have that first molt, they look just like a little tiny miniature scorpion. Did I just watch several macro videos of baby scorpions being squeezed out of a scorpion vagina while sipping. My morning coffee. I sure did it looked like if you were to squeeze unpeeled shrimp through a drinking straw, just one after the other like coming through a water slide, just bloop bloop. So then they just climb up on the back when they leave their like people on deck of a yacht until they moult. So they just hop off in there like to Lou. Yeah. Like, the they'll kinda start coming off her back and then getting back on for a little bit at some point. She's like hasn't eaten months and months, and she's like, Hungary, and she'll eat those little suckers. They don't leave her alone. But in but in some species, they do kind of live. Semi cooperatively like they're still living together in the same area for a long period of time. So the moms actually like will live in a borough with the babies. I don't know like months years, maybe just live around each other. They tolerate each other. Really well, and then she gives birth from a anywhere from two to I think the upper limit that anybody's ever recorded as like one fifth forty like high one forties. Wow. Maybe let's say one fifty call it even one hundred fifty babies that'd be a lot. And they all pile up on her back like a big giant pile. What a party. Yeah. And now, we're gonna party. What about have you ever seen one in the wild? That's covered intended abyss. Yeah. So like to find score beans, I go out during the day in flip over rocks and logs and things that they like the hide under. And oftentimes I'll flip over a rocker log in they'll be a mom with babies under there in the right season like spring is it always kind of a special treat to see one. Yeah. And you know, like I collect scorpions and euthanize them in order to study them on. I I always leave the moms. Yeah. I don't want. I don't want to take those moms in all those little babies. There's no need for that. Is it hard to collect in in euthanize them for research, or do you feel like you're like the more? We learn about them the more. We can kind of conserve them as a species. Yeah. I mean, certainly that's for me. The rationalization is that we for most scorpions. We don't know like basic natural history information like how long they live. How many babies they have how they made how what they eat. What eats them? We don't know any of that information except for for like half a dozen species. Okay. So we have the lowdown on only six out of around twenty five hundred species so future Scorpio, logistics, the world is your waster, which is actually a mollusc. So I guess the world is your arthropods. So the more information, we know the better, we can protect them, and and the truth is actually really environmentally sensitive. So mo- scorpion species as soon as an environment gets disturbed by humans can't survive there anymore. Wow. And so they're they're good indicators of the relative health of ecosystem. But yeah, I think I'll say that I didn't get into the business of setting scorpions because I love killing them. Unfortunately, they're not that cooperative sitting under a microscope alive and the only way to identify species and study things like venom or or reproduction is the look at them under microscope. That's all into Tamala gist has it's not like definitely a struggle. Yeah. You can't exactly look at them through binoculars and just observe them for ten hours like wolves or something. And unfortunately with most invertebrates were nowhere close to where we are with with vertebrates in terms of of knowing how many species are out there and what they're doing. Right. Maybe once we get there. We can switch to the Benach killer the binoculars model we'd need like a like a realism really strong. But. Now, what are some flimflam about scorpions that you would like to bunk are some myths that you're like, let's get the record straight people while. Okay, here's a few. Here's a few things you need to know about scorpion. Okay, one. They can't jump. Oh, okay. Sa- thing. They don't. They don't jump. They can't walk. They can they can walk on some vertical services, if they're like grainy like like a rock that has little micro areas step on, but otherwise like something that's slick like windows that could never walk on a window. Okay. So they're gonna have a hard time getting to you a few see it from like like three feet away while you don't have to run away to grab you. So with the exception of Zona, some parts of southern Nevada and some parts of western New Mexico. Lawrence says in the US there are no scorpions that will you have to be concerned about. Oh, okay. Like worst case scenario, it feels like a wasp even those ones. In Arizona, like the if you're a healthy adult. You don't have to worry. It's not gonna kill you. It will just hurt for a little bit. Okay. You might feel like a little more like an electric shock than a wasp sting. But if you're a child you want to be safe and not be playing with scorpions in Arizona. It's drool thumb. So that's the that's the thing you have cool tattoos. Do you have any scorpion? Tatoos? I do not you don't get a score being tattooed. Because like, I don't know. Like, I don't want to go with the cartoon lung because I feel like it would bug me. And like a real biologically accurate one. Like what if something came out wrong? You know, like or what if like the drawing was wrong to start with an I didn't notice it. And then like, I would have I look at it for the rest of my life. Right. Also, like, I do sometimes hate them because research is really hard. And I have those days where I'm like, I hate your. They don't wanna look at you like I look at you all day. And then I'd have to go home and look at it like taking a shower. That's be. Be. I don't wanna see those things. I have so many questions from listeners. Can I ask you? Yeah. It's kind of like a lightning round who. Okay. So before we get to your patriarch questions. A few words from the folks who sponsor the show and one thing about having ads is I get to approve everyone I endorse and also it makes donations to a cause of the gist choosing possible. So this week it's so doped to donate to islands and sees this is a nonprofit that Lauren founded with Eric Steiner and islands. And seas is building these small field stations that serve as research facilities for scientists in the area. They also serve as centers for science in environmental education for nearby schools. These stations are carbon minimal Baber use gray water, they harnessed green energy also and they offer outreach programs for schools. They have internships for teenagers interested in science field guide training. So good islands sees dot org. That's islands, plural. See? Sees dot org. So thank you Laurin, and Eric for starting that what total bad ass is with huge hearts. Great brains. So donation is going to islands and seas. Now a few words about sponsors making that donation in the production of this very show possible. Guess what? I love Kiko not really a secret. 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People are on Lincoln every day to advance their careers and Lincoln knows what they're good at. They can help match people on more than just a resume that can factor in the skills, and background and interest, activities and passions. You can focus on the folks you want to spend time talking to you and not just be buried in resumes. Customers rate linked in jobs number one in developing quality hires. So if you have a role to fill you can post your job today at Lincoln dot com slash allergies. He could fifty bucks off your first job post linked in dot com slash allergies. Terms and conditions apply. Perhaps you can hire knowledge. Right. And then you guys can bond over scorpion facts during the interview. Just saying maybe he'll become less France. I'm just saying. He stressed kiddos. This is an episode about alligators sized scorpions. So maybe afterward you'll just need to decompress. Let calm help. I recently partnered with this meditation app. Calm. I love it. 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Get twenty five percent off a calm premium subscription at com dot com slash allergies. C A L, M dot com slash allergies. Unlimited access to all of coms content today. Com dot com slash allergies. I used my own ding, dang code. I bought myself a subscription stops treston start chilling with me. Okay. Okay. Back to your questions. Okay. So is kind of a lightning round. Okay. Sonia carpal, bitch wants to know. Should they be kept as pets? And if yes, do they make good pets? I see. I'm gonna say, yes. Did they should should? There's no reason they shouldn't be kept as pets. But like all things that are kept in captivity. I think thrill important to have captive bred ones. Because then that keeps people out of the natural ecosystems from overharvesting over collecting for the pet trade. So there are some like quite a few species that are really common in the pet trade on our Bredon captivity. So if you want a scorpion as a pet, don't go get it out of your backyard. Leave it there. It's doing something important in the ecosystem rather buy one that's been captive bred by by a breeder. Okay. So it's the opposite of dogs opposite of dogs. You don't rescue on out of the wild. Rescuing their they're despite on their own got it. I was like how much do scorpions cost and I found myself on a web. Site selling medium, emperor scorpions for forty nine ninety nine and they have a live arrive guarantee, which I guess when you think of it. It's really an elite selection of people who when mail the box of scorpions would be disappointed to find that they are not alive scorpions and Elissa cata Hess wants to know, why is it in the scorpions nature to sting the frog in quotes. Have you heard that phase Fabel fable, right? Where the scorpion is on the frogs back in their swimming costs, the scorpion commences, a frog to give it a right across the river and says like, oh, no, I'll never sing. Because of a singular both gonna die. And then stings it in the middle of the river. And the frog says why in it says because I'm a scorpion semi nature. I mean, I I don't know. I guess the point of the fables that people are who they are. And don't change sort of. That's the philosophical answer. Let's look at this practically though, but a scorpion sitting on a frog's back would never seen the frog because they have all there is little top of their head. And they wouldn't even know what they were doing. There is are on the top of their head. Yeah. Like facing up towards the sky. How many is do they have let depends. But usually they all almost all have three sets of eyes to in the middle. And and then set of of three to six in each corner of the front of their head. In southern arrange like in a triangle and. Some people have hypothesized that they use the triangular array of is to look up into the night sky. Navigate by the stars. Oh my stars. Now for those who enjoy a good crossword puzzle word or are choked for conversation on a long car ride with your in laws navigating by stars is called Astro minnow taxes Astrum in Texas there, you know, that now Nelson Chan has a question that I think you are going to enjoy answering. Okay. I'm ready are all scorpions poisonous. And I know that there's a poison venom discussion to be had is so no scorpions or poisonous because poison is something that secreted, and then when something else eats that thing it makes them ill. All scorpions are venomous which is something that secreted and then injected into the destined host like another animal, so there's a delivery apparatus for the venom. All scorpions are venomous not all scorpions are venomous to humans because they do not necessarily have that mammal neuro-toxins, but they're all animus to something if you ate scorpion. Venom would it. Be poisonous. No. It's a protein in your stomach acid would do nature it. So if you ate a scorpion in less, it stung you on the way down. Yeah. You're good to go. You're good to go. And then it would still be venomous because it wouldn't be digested so poisoned versus venom. But I would like not recommend eating a thumb talk. Okay. Okay. So in that sense. Maybe not the stinger just because it's like sharp, and I don't know what's going to do in your stomach. It seems like not a good. Not a good look for any. Yeah. And also, let them live. Don't believe can. I learn join Jerry wants to know, what your opinion is on the scorpion. And Honey, I shrunk the kids. They say I love animals, but scorpions and the one animal that just creeps me out. Did you ever see? Honey. I shrunk the kids is there. Scorpion in it. Yeah. And well, here's what I'll say about that. Scorpion. Scorpions are are opportunistic predators. So they'll they'll basically eat anything that they can get their hands on. The don't forge during the day. And I wanna say like when that happens. It's daytime. Oh, that's inaccurate. It was also a knock your species for where it was. But for sure scorpions will will will eat anything. They can get their hands on that includes like if they could get find like tiny gecko that they're bigger then they'll eat it. If another scorpion comes along. We'll eat it. If it's a cricket eat it if it's a mafele eat it, but they have really low metabolism. So so that is another thing that makes them good pets. They have like one of the lowest metabolism. So if you forget to feed him for like say year, they'll do if you forget a week. They're gonna survive. My God didn't know that. They're like camels kind of j Owens has a question if you remove their tails is it true they die from constipation, and what is the mechanism? If that's true. So maybe I will say that the there is some truth to that end that their anus who's actually at the end of their tail right before their stinger. Really? They're like rectum goes all the way through their entire tail. And then like, they're they have just like a single kind of khloe go thing that has the excretes everything. They don't have like separate. Eight PM PU situation and that so it all comes out from right before the singer. Oh, so maybe they could dive constipation because it would be like ruptured and broken. Yeah. That'd be like, they'd probably just die of blood loss to be honest. That was actually Emily Hawking's question about the waste management system. Whereas the, but do they p now we know they do the excrete like your uric acid same as other things and other waste products comes out of there. But there was this one researcher Kamilo Madani in Argentina who has observed that some scorpions will voluntarily break off their tails to escape and. Yes, in that case in the absence of an anus PU will just build up like emails, you don't wanna check. But sometimes they can break off another tale segment to get rid of the poo, and then continue to live just long enough to mate again. Like, hey. Yeah. Hi, I don't have a stinger. I do of this stumping column of impacted PU happening. I got scared. And broke off part of my body. But I would love a chance to just get to know you better. Maybe have several dozen babies. Wade Lee, wait, wait highway. It weighed wants to know is it true. Smaller scorpions are more venomous in general smiley face emoji. They it depends on where you are. So it's not a simple. Yes. Or no answer. In some places smaller scorpions are belong to that one group booth eighty so they are more venomous, but I would say in general a better frame of references, if they have thin hands and either a really long or really fat tail they're probably more venomous. And if they have big fat hands and their hands are much broader than the width of their tail than their less. Ooh to sign the overall body size, but the proportion of hands detail situation, so counter-intuitively big pinschers less scary. Small hands. You can't trust them Dory. Grilling seals. There's a lot of consonants in that. I don't know if I said it right Dory grill seals. I think trust you not scorpion related, but could you tell us about the five hundred queer scientists initiative. Why did you start it? Why do you think it's important future plans and Caroline swift has the same question instead as a queer scientist? I'd also love the answer this huge. Thank you to both Dr Ian, you and Dory for asking. Well, I am queer an Iraq. Just and I think for most of my professional career and student life. I kept those two aspects of my identity really separate. And when I started my position, I realized that I was the only queer faculty member at my institution. Really? Yeah. San Francisco I was going to get your weight. The game mecca. So I'm the only faculty member of my knowledge and the only faculty member in the history of the institution what? Because first of all, we're a small institution. So it's not like a university that has hundreds and hundreds of professors. We have fifteen faculty. Let's do. So but still it San Francisco, right? And so I started thinking like if I feel this way, I feel like those aspects of my personality are separate. I'm gonna really queer friendly place on the only faculty member, I feel kind of isolated in that sense. There must be people out there in parts of the world where being LGBT is not a protected class for jobs like you would be fired. If people found out at work that you were gay or if you're just in a place where like culturally feels unwelcome to be out and open. Surely, if I feel this way, and San Francisco there must be people in other places. And so I decided that I would start a visibility campaign, and it's called five hundred scientists, and we're we have a website. We also have social media accounts on Twitter and Instagram, and we take user contributed stories of scientists and science students at all levels from undergraduate all the way through deans of universities have contributed their story. And it's really just people sharing their stories of what they do in stem, and and their identity as a LGBTQ a person, and how those things fit together. And and it's been I think great for the community. It's to be able to identify other because often it's like one of those attributes that's hidden. It's quiet, but it's a really strong part of your personal identity in and so it's hard to identify others that you can just commiserate with or have as role models or as colleagues at you. Feel comfortable sharing that part of your identity with. And so I think it's been a great way for the community to find each other and connect with one another how long ago did you start it we launched last June, and we had collected fifty Bio's of people by Email like emailing, all my friends and asking them to Email all their friends and two weeks later we had five hundred oh my God on now. We're eight months, then eight. Yeah. Eight months in and we have eight hundred fifty and we've had like over a million interactions on social media in those eight months, and you started it. Yeah. So I started it with the help, of course. But but certainly it was my little brainchild. And and I'm really happy with what it's become. So you can find five hundred queer scientists at five hundred queer scientists on Instagram or go to five hundred scientists dot com, and you can read first person stories such as Charlotte. She says, I'm lesbian and chemistry student. I made the decision to return to education after. Being a long time selling phones for a living. For me studying chemistry is the most wonderful thing. I have ever had the opportunity to do it started. When my wife, and I returned from our honeymoon in New Zealand, all we can think about is. How do we go back there? We considered the usual ideas of learning a trade or something similar then one day. I woke up at hit me I nudged backs and said I want to go back to school. She asked why I told her I wanted to study chemistry she replied while four. So I can teach it she simply replied, well, then go do it and rolled over and went back to sleep. So here I am immature fish student at the university of Manchester chasing after an interest in radio chemistry and a dream to teach at the academic level or Alexi who writes, I'm by an a wildlife educator animal trainer an artist. I floated through college studying biology and social psychology, not knowing what I wanted to do in an interview where I uttered the phrase elephant diaper, the managers of the locals zoos education department saw something in me that I didn't know is there as someone who was impacted by Dave. Vid attenborough. I never expected. I could be doing the same for kids of color and all kids in general on the ground. But here I am educator trainer. Scientists and mentor to several queer teens of color. So if there's something missing from your day, and that's something is crying with pride for total strangers. And or making some new friends do check out five hundred queer scientists, and if you are a queer scientists, and you're looking for a place to find community, maybe share your story. Look, no further fam- so follow the folks on their fill your feed with really great, scientists fill your heart with joy and admirations. How has it changed your life? Having started it. I think for me the the biggest changes just been realizing other people that were not necessarily in my field. Although I have met a few people now in the field of Iraq -nology that are queer. But in the greater field of into Malla g which is the study of insects doesn't really include Iraq -nology, but they allow us to pay. Close enough. So I've certainly met lots of Inzamaul, logistics. But I think also have just realized like how meaningful it is for people to realize that there's others out there because I've heard over and over from so many people at this point that prior to this campaign, they'd never met any other scientists in their field that was LGBT. So it wasn't alone. And I think that's that's the reassuring part of it is like, you're not alone. There's others. They're out there. They're just maybe not as visible as we'd like the movie anything that you would suggest for people to kind of keep an eye on or anything that people could do to. The inclusion anything people can do to be allies like any advice for people. Who are like, oh, I'm not required. Quite sure what I could do to help. So I think some some simple ways as just a good knowledge. Ing people in the workplace or in or in your like student community and an asking like point blank, if there's ever anything that they can do or if there is if you are witnessing something, that's that's would make them feel uncomfortable or you perceive that they're uncomfortable to speak out. So that they don't have to speak out. I think that that's huge. And you know, also, the I would say for me that's been one of the really great things about having run this campaign by talking about it this much this aspect of my my identity this much around my colleagues who are straight and header heterosexual, non transgender gender conforming. Whatever they they've become much bigger allies for me like huge advocate. It's and have expressed their desire for advocacy in a way that like prior to this never would've done. And so I think for for all the people that are LGBT out there like taking the step of putting yourself out there like expressing your needs to your colleagues and telling them point blank how they can help is scary. It's like terrifying. But when you do it like, they're really appreciative of that. Because they don't necessarily know how to help you and how to be an ally. So just asking which is I think it's always like hard to ask for help. No matter the context, right? But if you if you can find the Kurds should do. So it makes a huge difference. You're changing so many lives. It's amazing about that. It's not knee. It's the community. Yeah. But those eight hundred and fifty stories is only one of them's mine, but I'm happy to be the spokesperson for the community whenever whenever I can. Because I am in a place of privilege where I can talk openly about my identity in my workplace and not have any fear of retaliation or retribution and have the full support of my institutions. So so I'm happy to. To to do that work for for the community. When I can look there's not that much information about the out there about the experience for LGBT people in the workplace in stem. But the few things that we do know is that about forty percent of of queer faculty, member members in academia and in industry are not out. So there's a lot of people that are out there that are not comfortable expressing that part of their identity because of fear of retribution which is a valid fear because surveys of shown that of faculty members that are out seventy percent of them have been made to feel excluded or harassed at work by their colleagues. My god. So there's like a huge motivation. Not to be out even though being out is great for the community. It's great for future students. It's great to be a role model, but there's so much. There's so much. There's so many reasons not to do it. Because you're going to be uncomfortable at work. It's going to be Tara. Yeah. You don't wanna do that? And so I think it's hard to feel that you're in a space that's comfortable enough to be to be out in the visible. So they can commiserate and hear other people's stories and lots amazing. Oh, I'm so glad that you did that you're doing so any good. Then how? No. That's the thing. I don't know of any queer scorpions. But. There's gotta be some there. Maybe there's lots of examples of weird things in nature. Yeah. They're just under a rock. There's so much more fluidity in nature. Yeah. Gender fluidity as humans. We wanted. They caught him is that it's so crazy. I know this nails episode. We talk a lot about, you know, just you you come B Y. Oh, jeez. Jenny's? And now the last couple of questions, I always ask what's the worst thing about your job or the most annoying thing about scorpions? What's the shitty as aspect about being scorpion, Allah, just Scorpio Logist? I, you know, I think the hardest thing about working in science in this moment in time in this country. Especially is like the funding it's tough. And I think in in the field that I work in which is sort of evolutionary biology the successful funding rate to the main place that we apply for funding the National Science Foundation government grants the success rates about four percent. So as early career scientists like breaking into that. Because you know, like almost certainly that four percent is not evenly distributed across all genders NFL cities in stages of career. It's certainly biased because the people that are more senior are more established to tend to be more white more, male and are better. Getting grants. So to be early career researcher trying to break into a four percent funding rate is daunting and hard. And it makes it really hard to find enough money to do the thing that you want to do and feel is really important contribution to society. Do you have to write all your own grants or does do? Yeah. I do I submit probably three or so a year, and you know, those each of those takes months and months to craft. So it's time away from research, which is what I really love in one really be doing. Yeah. Ooh. And now best thing about scorpions best thing about your job. What do you do? You know? I love my job because I get to wear so many hats, and I met at institution that feels I'm at an institution that was such a good match for me, which is why I wanted to work there. The California academy of sciences is. Is I think a an incredible museum because it's equally committed to science outreach. Which is something I love doing and like really high quality signs research. So for me, those two aspects of of my of my work life. I always felt like I was going to have to give up one for the other a faculty job at a university. I was going to have to give up the outreach because that's like extra credit. It's not it's extracurricular, it's not something that's considered in your annual review or your job performance or doing signs are reach. I was going to have to give up science because there's very few signs reach jobs where you can still engage as much as you need to in the signs research itself. But I found a really great fit. And I think for me, that's like the the great thing about going to work every day is they love all the things I'm doing including running a little nonprofit that's focused on conservation and doing a visibility campaign for queer scientists, and it's nice to be somewhere where I can bring all of me. So the job it's a beautiful place. Oh my God. If you've ever if you're gonna work every day is also not so bad. Oh, man. If you're in San Francisco, go go go, it's just oh, I could spend days than just like walk through the park to work in the morning. I see coyotes and those like crows quashing and red tail hawks. Fly soaring through the air. It's like pretty amazing social lately, we have a Turkey that lives in our business entrance. And she just like hangs out in the like little walkway like fruit like fluffing up. Her feathers walks around there's lots of different names for her. But everybody's got a different name. What do you call her? I call her burn that. Okay. Somebody. I didn't make the name up somebody else said, but that's my favorite one. I felt like it's like like burning. That's like a real Turkey kind of name. Definitely. She's a Turkey to. Oh my God. I need to come back in. Visit. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. My gosh. Great. I've been I have been to gently prodding you for too long like high like ships in the night. We could never like managed to meet up. Oh, I did. We did it. So asks smart people stupid questions because how the hell else would we ever find out that scorpions are four hundred and fifty million years old, and we're once the size of like a couch. What what to learn more about Dr Esposito's endeavor? You can find her on Twitter at Iraq -nology nerd, she's on Instagram at cariballo is and I will put links in the show notes. Her education nonprofit, again is I lands and seas islands sees dot org. You can go to five hundred queer Cy on Twitter on Instagram. They are five hundred queer scientists and it's five hundred scientists dot com. More links will all be up at Allie. Ward dot com slash Gs slash Scorpio allergy you can follow all Ogies on Twitter or Instagram at all, geez. I'm on both at ward with one L, and there's tons of links again for each episode up at alleyway dot com slash allergies, and you can become. Patron if you like patriot dot com slash allergies. You can get merged at all Ogies, merch dot com or through my website. Thank you to Bonnie Dutch, and also Shannon felt for helping manage that. Thank you to Erin. Talbert and Hannah Lippo for admitting be really, wonderful allergies. Facebook group. Thank you. Didn't turns Harry, Kim and Caleb Patton of the you're never too old podcast to assistant editor Jarrett sleeper of mine jam media. He also hosts the podcasts my good, bad brain and a combat sports podcast called fight stuff. And thank you to Stephen remorse of the per cast ANSI drastic right for never being a frog, stabber and editing this altogether. Also, Nick Thorburn of the band islands who wrote and performed the theme music. And if you listen to the end of the episode, I always tell you a secret this week. I'm going to tell you about Herbert Herbert is my tiny tooth. I have this one tooth that. I had of Niran because it's just tiny. And so I was trying to get my teeth moved around. I've been doing invis- line for like four or five months to get her. Bert back into place, and they had to take the veneer off to like fix it. And I did not know how small he was. It's been awhile since I've seen him. And so now, I just have this one little tooth. I'm in-between the veneers. And I got it taken off. And I asked him close friends like Lu, and they're like, I didn't I wouldn't have even noticed it. Allie your trip in like, it's I wouldn't have even seen it. And then I went and saw my friend Dylan, by the way, happy birthday dealin. It's a pretended. And the one of the first thing she said, well, how do your tooth? And I was like is it noticeable? She's yes, I said other friends were like, they wouldn't even seen it. She's like they're lying to you. So I'm going to get a fixed. But meanwhile, if you're at the museum, and you're like Ellie what's up with her tooth? That's what's up with it. It's almost fixed. You'd never know. But I figured I might as well use the end of this episode to tell you about Herbert, maybe patriots. Maybe I'll just posted a little smiley video of me and Herbert up there and do. Lynn happy birthday. Thank you for always telling me the truth. I love you so much, okay. Pachyderms polish. Mommy does allergy g. Meteorology? Gortat PM. Once again before we go key co projects are designed to spark creativity. Tinkering and learning in kids of all ages. They make learning about steam fun. So Casey for forgot key because offering all cheese listeners the chance to try and for free. You can redeem it Kiwi co dot com slash, geez. It's Kiko dot com slash all. Geez. All the sponsor links. We in show notes. No keeper by for real.

Scorpio Dr Lauren Esposito New York City grizzlies scientist researcher Iraq American Museum Lincoln California academy of sciences Flores Erica pataca Erica puff Allie Iraq. LA allergies Arizona Toilet papering
Bring Me Chocolate Or Bring Me Dead Stuff

Short Wave

14:31 min | 6 months ago

Bring Me Chocolate Or Bring Me Dead Stuff

"You're listening to shortwave from npr. Hey everybody i'm leon here. And mattie safai. There's a lot going on this time of year. But first of all shout to my fellow asians celebrating lunar new year. Rupe happy new year and also this weekend. Some of you may be celebrating. Valentine's day and i thought we'd celebrate with a little valentine's day fact exchange a gift exchange but with facts. Yes there is nothing more romantic than scientific facts. People are saying that all the time. Kwame and to stick with the valentine's day theme i brought mattie some facts about chocolate as much a masterpiece of farming as it is fermentation and i have some facts about courtship in the animal kingdom moves that make our human game honestly look kind of weak so today on the show a love filled fact exchange between mattie shortwave. The daily science love cast from npr. This message comes from npr sponsor. Bank of america. You decided to upgrade your outdoor deck. So you ordered the essentials. Power washer said a patio chairs and a shiny new grill. And you used your bank of america. Cash rewards credit card choosing to three percent cashback on online shopping or up to five point two five percents as a preferred rewards member which you put towards the cost of your most essential deck of a bird feeder apply for yours at bank of america dot com slash more rewarding copyright twenty twenty bank of america corporation. All right emily kwong lay some of that chocolate goodness on me. You got it because chocolate is the true meaning of valentine's day only chocolate. This pure can be this. So i love you but lactose intolerant. Why are you doing this to me. I thought about this. The thing that gives chocolate. Its flavor is dairy free. Did you know cocoa comes from a fruit that grows these amazing looking multicolored cacao pods and i was. Cd's read things hanging from the trees. While what are these things. This is food scientists. Darren ostrom suka at the cocoa research center at the university of the west indies. Speaking with simmons safety and our friends at life kit about his fascination with cacao pods. It's like it's like a football shape. Fruit it can be smooth. It can be wate. it can have ridges. Darren saw these pods all over the place. Growing up in trinidad and tobago. They grow on the couch. Frey or theobroma cacao in under story crop of the tropical rainforest meaning they grow pretty close to the ground and the exterior of these pods is hard like it's tough but not so tough that critters can't break it open to go on a little cow binge correct if i was a squirrel. This would be what i would do. I mean absolutely. Darren breaks open a pod with a special tool kind of like a dull michigan it resists when gives time what it feels very satisfying on. Then when you twist the blade you hear a sort of crunch on you see opening insite describes the inside of the pod like a sticky cobwebs it has rows of caucases which he calls beans covered in this gummy white pulp called musa delicious mm-hmm usage and the aroma hits immediately. I'm spending my and it smells. Citrusy like like citrus flowers. It's like a subtle perfume Yeah there's so much flavor potential in these cacao beans at this point once the pot is opened fermentation begins so after. The seeds are removed from the pod. They're collected and transported to an area where they can ferment for days. Yeah and naturally occurring microbes breakdown. Those beans unlock their flavor notes. I i did not know that. Quang i mean for meditation gotta love it. Kind of sounds like like wine a little bit. Maybe a little bit. Yeah kinda if you think of cacao beans grapes and the tastes does reflect the ecosystem from which it came. The beans are then sorted roasted and sold to chocolate-makers to become the chocolate. You know and love. it can be fruity. it can be floral. It can be bright. So i like to think of a flavor profile that cuckoo offense to be like a good piece of music is we. What makes a good piece of chocolate is a harmonious 'presentation of flavor notes that in balance with each other at the coco research centre. He works on the level of genetics and with farmers to optimizing flavor and adopting their crops to climate change and disease. Darren even works with the cacao. Farm used to pass as a child. Chocolate is something he just can't stay away from is like with ocala. Florida is she. You can check out anytime you want. But you've been the relieve gets on the skin and it becomes your positive your consciousness so for me. I don't really work at a job. I work at partial. Emily kwong somebody more passionate about chocolate than you. Can you believe it's a dream okay. Emily thank you. For those wonderful chocolate facts. I liked them useless part in the fermentation best. I know you win the in there for you. Are you ready to talk critter courtship. I am ready because we always talk about the art of seduction south described right but what about the science of seduction you know seduction is kind of a human word and it might be a little strong for some of these behaviors. Yeah let's let's start with one animal that is known for its powers of seduction the scorpion. Oh of course you put in. Iraq did in here ridiculous. You just did a spider episode like two weeks ago. Yup organs are the fine ballroom dancers of arachnoid world like some other. Spiders like crazy and energetic and do it like disco situation are refined. They just ballroom style. That's lauren esposito. She is a curator of acknowledgee at the california academy of sciences and the creator of five hundred queer scientists which we love and repeat scorpions dance. Yeah that's what they call it. You know i. We have to find each other. They have to get to the dance floor now. some of this is done through. Farah moons look chemicals. Animals released that can be picked up by other animals and on top of that in some species the males start to do this thing called juddering. Which i like to think of as a little like warm up to the real dance. They basically just start shaking. Their tiny scorpion bodies expresses account the really cool thing about most arachnids. Have these structures called slits insulin. The feet that allow them to hear vibrations through the ground. So like because it's Sharp drastic shaking probably a pretty unique signal. That's like hey lady to see looking for love. Who's done eating interested. Don't eat me. Yeah yeah you know. Depending on the species there is some light to heavy cannibalism in the scorpion world. So in some cases he's really taking his life into his little claws during this courtship. This sounds terrified. I had no idea but no no. It's nice it's nice. Once everybody is happy at this point the dance begins the face each other and they kinda grab pinchers and then he begins by sort of like pushing her backwards and then pooling were forwards really like leading her in this like back and forth. Prominent the do as. It's called in the literature. Did she just say promenade. Yeah yup Scorpions are refined and they continue on. The prominent in the promenade can last for just a few minutes in the female can break it off Either by ripping her hands away from his grasp or just like eating heating him so refined as they continue this courtship dance like things start to progress. It doesn't just consists of like the simple back and forth steps. It's more complex than that. Like these animals are really serious about their dancing and the next stage it can progress. You is something called cholesterol massage. Hang with me kalisz. Suray are the name of scorpion mouth parts. So in some species he rubs his little mouth parts on hers during courtship. a little little. Kiss if you and there are even more moves that we don't even have time for this entire dance can take minutes or it can take hours dedication. Kwong dedication to the craft so planet earth is just a big ballroom for scorpion to make out in yup. Very very very cool. What's next okay. Well an episode about courtship and wing would not be complete without at least one bird they have some of the craziest of wild this and also of will and just auditory displays at of most of the creatures that we encounter. that's viviana ruiz gutierrez she's an ecologist at the cornell lab. Ornithology and she told me about a very special. Little bird called the longer head shrike. So loggerhead their name actually comes from because they have a really big head so lager her strikes have a big appetite and a and a big head and they need a big head because they actually have a hook at the end of their bill and they use that to strike their prey and actually tried to cut right to the spinal cord. So they're they're they're vicious little birds. Birds sounds positively metal. You have no idea you have no idea. We're just warming up. It's it's only about the size of a robin. But it has been called mrs real a song bird with a raptors habits. Put that in your twitter by. Yeah yeah they hang out like high up on like telephone poles or whatever in the dive bomb down and they can kill prey. that's pretty large for their size. But they're too little to eat something that big all at once. So yeah kwong. If you brought home more food than you can eat what would you do. It's leftovers yeah. Yeah but what does that have to do with courtship. Just stay with me. Stay with me. It's it's just like you in your leftovers. Except the way that they save their food like say bird that they've killed is by impaling it on thorns or sharp sticks or even barbed wire. Evolution is so weird. I just need to say that right now. The the first one that i saw. I saw bird that was just you now impaled in a barbed wire fence When i was walking around You think who did this. You don't think he was a bird. You really wonder who would do such a thing shrike. Emily a shrike would do such a thing. Just like squirrels hide nuts away or you know other animals hide fruit. They actually saved their prey for later and sometimes they wedged them in between forks and branches and they wedged anything from lizards. Too big insects demise. Just like a creepy dead creature sculpture that there may. Yuck i okay. But here's the courtship comes in because during breeding season they go out and catch something like something good like a mouse and then they'll start to call out and in this loose interpretation of course but it's like hey girl i got a good mouse over here. Got hung up. Skewered it just for you. And he'll present this prey to her while he's doing these dance moves. They have a bowing behavior that they do and really from the from the courtship and the and the kind of bowing behavior in the dance to then offering them. They're the prey item. It really is kind of presenting themselves as you know very suitable mate. I mean these birds. Bring the drama. Kwong this is my favorite video. Told me that when they're little fledglings they will imitate their parents hunting behaviors so they'll light up random stuff and try to smash it into a branch like they're trying to impale it. It's adorable these are the theater kids of the bird world. I'm just gonna say like being ema theater. Kids of the bird world they got props. They got choreography. They're right in the museo love this. I love this. And i mean i love it because it's just very straightforward. It's not like a flashy mating dance. The mail has to provide food during this entire reproductive process. So he's just like look. I can feed you love me. It's before you went on a date. Somebody came with a week's worth of groceries. This is what i could provide for. You know that would work for me right right. Okay so just to summarize To celebrate valentine's day. I brought you facts about chocolate young. You brought me a scorpion dancing and a bird that fills his little pantry with old dead bodies to find a mate. Not like i like my. I love it. Mattie you valentine's day to you and all of our listeners out there by the way if you want to hear more from that chocolate expert life get f- assode about how to taste and appreciate chocolate with journalist. Cimarron saito you can find that at. Npr dot org slash life. This episode was produced by brit. Hanson and rebecca ramirez fact checked by russia reading and edited by via. I'm maddie safai. And i'm an only clung. Thanks for listening to shortwave. The daily love cast from npr.

mattie mattie safai Darren Rupe Power washer twenty twenty bank of america emily kwong npr Darren ostrom suka cocoa research center bank of america valentine coco research centre Emily kwong theobroma cacao lauren esposito Farah moons Kwame