18 Episode results for "CPB"

161: Demon Sex

The 45th

1:15:04 hr | 9 months ago

161: Demon Sex

"This means that Donald Trump will be the forty fifth president of the United States. This is your life. Now, this is our election. Now, this is us. This is our country. It's real. Hi and welcome back to the forty fifth rob here, and always I'm here with my colleague Susan. Simpson. Hey Susan. Hey, robby, are we doing not too bad. How's it going over there? Well, week eight, hundred, fifty, five of quarantine. was like ten, thousand, three, roughly I lost count. It's going. Okay. It's going. Okay. Things are getting Harrier. But this week I'm very excited that we have a guest on a special guest on who is going to basically fill us in on on a lot of the stuff going on around the country. So let me start off by introducing our guests joining us. This week is Jennifer. Bud and Jennifer is a former senior patrol agent intelligence agent and a whistle blower. She's an expert advisor Speaker and writer on Border Patrol and C. B. P.. Corruption John has had an entire career inside a working with the troll. And then after leaving that, she went on to work on the other side of these issues. So welcome to the show Jennifer. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Can you first tell us a little bit about I, I've done some reading up i. read a number of your pieces in your open letter. Also to your colleagues, but can you tell us a little bit about your career? Inside these agencies and then what led you to become a whistleblower? Well, I joined the Border Patrol out of college because I didn't feel like going to law school is GonNa burned out a little bit on school in. someone to the Border Patrol has hiring and I didn't know what it was and this was back in nineteen, ninety five I joined and they said they'd send me to San Diego. So it sounded like an adventure. So I did that I became a senior patrol agent Al. Campo California in the mountains. And eventually ended up as a senior intelligence agent. It San Diego Sector Headquarters. where I found out that the boss of the station Campbell was the one organizing the smuggling of narcotics into the country. and. So I went forward with that to whistle blow and sector offered me a promotion To be quiet and said, no. they put me out on to make a long story short. They put me out on the border in the middle of the night and I got automatic weapon fire, and then that boss showed up and say, have you learned your lesson next time? We miss you know kind of thing, and so I, I learned my lesson I left. Left and then you know a for me. Personally, it took a while for me to look back at the border patrol. and. In evaluate my actions and my responsibilities in that in seeing the racism and prejudice that I had become a part of. How long were you would the agency? I was with the agency for six years. So I left right before nine eleven. The senior patrol agent in In, like I said an intelligence agent. So I've been watching them throughout the years and educating myself on how their policies have changed and. After nine eleven, we knew that things were going to get really crazier in the border patrol as far as lack of accountability and abuse. The agents would come by and tell me how great it was because now, they basically do whatever they wanted to and just say national security terrorism and get away with anything they wanted to. And I just watched as the hiring. Standards Got Lower and lower and the racism got higher and higher, and the abuse kept going and You Know I. Just realized that. It was part of my life that I had to deal with. That had a lot of PTSD from. That I had to deal with and come to terms with especially with Recognizing. My own racism because it wasn't raised to be racist. But. Somehow found it very easy especially as a white woman to to fall into the and. Use the same kind of justifications that you hear people use today for how they treat migrants and so forth. So that's been my journey. When did when did you start publicly speaking and writing about your experience and knowledge? A started in. So in February of two, thousand, fifteen night. I. Had a major suicide attempt for my ptsd and that's Kinda what led me on the road to writing and that led me to speaking in so far so. Discovering, how much being in the border patrol and the violence, the that you see on a daily basis, and that you also sometimes inflict and then also being a woman in the border patrol, you're subject to repair your fellow officers, and in made to be quiet about it and sexual assault sorts of things. I for the longest time was like, no, that's you know I. didn't have any problem in the patrol. Everything was fine and. And then when I finally admitted that you know. There were. A lot of abuse going on to me personally, and a lot of abused as deny turn around and flipped it on other people. So. That was part of my healing process and and and so about two thousand, sixteen I really started investing in writing about. Truthfully what I had. Experienced in. Also. What I have been guilty of and what I had done and. Coming to terms without, and then I started volunteering at migrant shelters when the zero tolerance happened. And the point of that was to just be in that space and to not. Say anything but to listen. And to listen to the stories at the asylum seekers were. going. Through. Without putting in my you know because I was used to being. An authority figure. In front of migrants in. And then I guess you know the biggest thing was just offering a hell helping hand to someone who needed it without judgment in. It just was like I remember coming home my first day and just telling my wife it just. I was just in tears. It was so profound. You know seeing migrants come off the bus from Texas and how they retreated and then having flashbacks of standing there green uniform yelling at them. And so that Kinda? It's been a long journey, but that was kind of. A big awakening for me I think. I WanNa read from an excerpt that in the open letter from X. Border Patrol, agent that you wrote, and I'm assuming this is something you wrote. In the last Brian last year or so or I? Don't exactly when it was published. But certainly during this administration and it says, today, we are living the consequences addressed again to your ex colleagues. Today, we are living the consequences of our decades long obsession with our deadly enforcement, only policies and you my dear former colleagues or the tip of the spear. Your are the enablers of a deportation force responsible for separating families, terrorizing communities and responsible for enforcing policies that have killed thousands of people including six children since November who died in US custody. Now. We are seeing. The activation of your ex colleagues, these same agencies in cities, we didn't expect inside American cities, the border being so far away from most of us, you know we read the stories but have not witnessed the kind of violence you're talking about, and so I wanna get into this stuff and Susan. Very, aptly. federal police we are. So Bone y'all is. Shorthand notes. That's her first bullet point. We are so bone. So let, can we talk about this first of all? I think what's really important for people to stand is. The different agencies that are involved here. There's a lot of acronyms going around. So John, you're gonNA breaking down who different agencies are, what they traditionally, what their jurisdiction is, what they're meant to do, and how that's all coming together right now. Yeah. So the parent agency obviously is, is the Department of Homeland Security and then within D, h s you have CB with customs and Border Protection. In those when people say BP there, they can be referring to that. General, agency, which also encompasses border. Patrol. Or they could just be saying CB meaning the people at the poor in the blue uniforms. I like customs used to be customs and immigration. Specter's now as one unit under BP. So they work the ports of entry or if the airports international airports. and then border patrol, which is what I. was there the people in. Green. And they work in between the ports of entry. And then you have ice which works in the Interior. So the teams that you see in Portland are. You'll hear people say they're see, BP. Technically, they are under C B, but they're also CPP Puerto, patrol and then within Border Patrol, they're known as a Swat team called board tax. It's like border tactical unit. which should not exist in my opinion, but that's a whole nother subject and then there's also ice s RT teams, which is like Isis version of a SWAT team. So that's that's the difference in. That's what we are seeing in Portland and most people don't understand. Portland is within a hundred miles. Of. A sea border. So it is a border city just like Chicago's a border city, just like New York City is border city. And these agencies have jurisdiction within hundred miles of these borders what you're saying. Yeah, they had jurisdiction within hundred miles of the of the border, and that does not mean that board ritual cannot go into the interior. What that means is that within a hundred miles they have. Special Jurisdiction. So they have special extraordinary authorities that are granted to them that no other agency, like ATF, or da or FBI. So, if you're within one hundred miles of any land or sea border as a border patrol agent, I can stop in question you. Simply because of the color of your skin because racial profiling has been apparently, I mean, the Supreme Court says they should have more than just racial profiling but the border VP readily admit. That they racial profile. So I can stop, you can question you as to your citizenship within the United States and ask you to prove those documents in the run your fingerprints, and interrogate you and keep you as long as I see. Fit. Especially, when you consider the all these agencies are coming together under what's called a joint terrorism task force under the FBI. So when they do that. The throwing out terrorism and they pretty much can do anything they want under that. They need. They may do what they want. But Tet like against the people they're targeting. Don't have the resources often. But under president? That's not what they're allowed to do on the constitution theoretically. I mean, a lot of these laws I've been researching them. Because I knew we were headed this way researching the emergency pandemic laws and stuff that they're misusing their misusing these laws The way their intended makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, they didn't put any guardrails up to protect people in their fourth amendment, and that's getting back to the hundred mile rule. That's the issue with one hundred mile rules. That is a border patrol agent can search you and go through your person, go through your property. In violate your fourth amendment rights, just because I'm an immigration officer. When they work in a joint task force together like this, they share a authorities. So now the marshalls are the ATF didn't have that special authority within a hundred miles is sharing just simply because I'm on the task force with them and I can share their authority. Which is what they've been using for a long time. If you follow border to on social media in ICE, they do a lot of joint operations in the do that so that they can do what's called mission creep, and that's where they because they want to be seen as normal law enforcement and they want to. They want to be involved in issues like Portland and all this other stuff, and they want to act like moral police officers. But, they're not because they work in an arena. where? They don't observe normal constitutional rights whether that is legally correct or wrong. That's for the courts to decide. But that's how those agents are trained and they are not trained like normal police officers. They're trained at a at a much lower level, and that's why you see the violence and stuff that's going on in. PORTLAND. That's every day down here on the border. MIAMI? have been around for a while, my first Rodeo with them was as an attorney representing. Representing clients who were American Muslim clients or Muslim? Immigrant clients who wake of nine eleven. J. T. S. we're targeting them and such. But one question I think a lot of people have on their mind as a again, there's been around for a long time. It's impacted different communities over the years is. It's understandable of how maybe all these federal agencies might work together and share power. But then how how does the power get delineated or decided with local law enforcement I? Mean, what about local police US and local law enforcement? Don't they have? Any like, is there? No, like you know firewall there or they're like, well, listen you are in my backyard. Now, you can't do this while they thought about that. They thought about that. Cata. They're just diabolical the way they thought about this. So they have what's called. Centers, they have them in large cities like San, Francisco and San Diego, and then what they do is they get the local police departments and sheriff's in the state officers to come in and do details with them. So there are temporarily assigned to these fusion centers and they're told what we talk about here is technically a secret and you can't tell your bosses back at your local police station. So these police officers may be doing I. think There was a report regarding San Francisco officers, and in San Francisco the officers are tolerant to always put the first amendment. In. The front of their mind that they're always to protect people's First Amendment Rights. That's what their official policy is. But. Those who are assign to the task force were told, well, what we're doing is secret and what they were doing is targeting and trying to reduce people's First Amendment Rights. So they're not going back in telling their supervisor. So what you see are unions of for the police officers going behind mayors in their in their chiefs, bats, and talking to DHS in these joint task force operations. So they're they've already been. been working with your local police department. They've already been giving them training for free. They've already been giving them all sorts of weapons and tanks. That's where they get all this stuff. So that bridges all funding a lot of funding to a lot of funding. So yeah, that breaches already built. So when people say all our local police won't go for that or not. I'm pretty sure I. GotTa go for that. So. They've been working together for a long time. So the structure has been in place basically. Available to be abused, and that's where we are today. So Susan what you WANNA lead us into little bit starting with bar detest. Testified today was just yesterday yesterday yesterday, right. But so but. In May bar issued a statement declaring that he was going to send FBI's J. D. F. The joint terrorism task, force to Portland. To protect a federal courthouse calling the protesters domestic terrorists. Can we talk about what agencies we know right now operating on in Portland at least from the video, because in some videos that you can't see, there's no identifying uniform that you can't see the badges, they won't identify themselves. So what are who is there Jen right now? So as far as we know I believe there's an ice s RT team, their support team under. Border Patrol. There might be CB P. But I'm not one hundred percent on that CPS reporting that they sent over two thousand agents to various cities. So I'm assuming summer there, there's US marshals and I believe there might be atf there, and then there's also the federal protective services which are pretty much all subcontracted out security services. So who knows, yeah, it's I mean, they're largely unmarked. There's all kinds of agencies there. There are driving around in Kia sedona Zavala bangs but. The excuse, the explanation from the government is that these people aren't wearing. Not. Define themselves and not having their names displayed because of fear of. Or. Basically, that bill the protesters will use the ID's on these officers to somehow harm their families. Something actor. Right, and just show everything else. So well as far as I'm aware I've not even seeing examples of this happening So even assuming that's a good explanation seems to be begging a lot. But. Where we're at now, is that in Portland, at least. It seems like back and forth all day change outlined three times because what happened this morning is that? Trump gave up ran for on his helicopter, talking about how the officers in Portland are going to be there to clean up the city and clean it out if the state won't do it the hill, clean it out. And then like. An hour later that we have a statement from the. Governor of Oregon saying that, in fact, after she's talked to pence, the federal agents will be. Now being removed from Portland. And then after that, we had acting. Head Chad Wolf sent a tweet saying that that's not true. They're staying there to clean up. So as at this moment, I cannot give an answer. So whether or not the Portland. Federal presence continue or not I'm not even sure. The Governor of Oregon knows yet neither. And and what are the other states that trump has threatened to send these forces in into? So we do have the. There's also kind of a mixture of different operations. Now, we've got the stuff like the protests we had in DC, for instance, I mean every agency that can imagine possibly was there. To protect monuments and to gas protesters. And we've had other cities with protests had federal intervention, but it's not strictly on right now is not strictly A. Thing and it's not clear to me how much overlapping between the different agencies that are involved. But also now got operational legend as grandiosely named it, which is a initiative to have federal law enforcement agencies go in New York protest nothing protest whatsoever as their claim which. Seems to be backed up by where they're going just to I. Don't know generically stop crime. It's not even that clear. What doing. There's money involved. They are giving him some resources to the officials as part of this, but operation legend appears to basically be a way for trump to say that, oh, look, he's going in and cleaning up all the cities right now But again, that's that's technically not related to these protests aggressing in Portland which. In large part. They're justifying because of the threat to the after corporal there. It. Can we talk a little bit about The I mean has been like, is this like an official designation? First of all, far as I know, there's no domestic terrorism statute. by not right bar has just called the protesters defect or I don't know how they're determining this but By doing. So that kind of expands the possibilities have been responding to them with Montfort, right? Well, it doesn't actually have any. No. That's more of a PR, move a Fox News move than it has actually significance. But the the the is there an operation named what's going on in like Portland in York. I missed it like operation like Rabbit Eagle or something I. Don't know. I. Thought it was operating legend, but we'll let as far as I'm aware legends not actually about. Legend operated initially opened out in Kansas City Chicago in Albuquerque. which as far as I'm aware, there was not even any. Major productivity there maybe cargo, but that's not one of the city's was. Particularly hit hard but I think I mean confusion is the name of the game right. It is and also the campaign for twenty twenty is the primary motivator. Here is what appears to be Do. You think that this is I see one of your questions posed is, why is trump doing this? Do you think this is just? You know basically warming assault for what's going to happen come election time and him deploying. As, many forces can mobilize. To screw with the election. I am very much concerned about what's the precedence setting in what? This could mean for protests and public gatherings going forward. But I think the initial short-term thinking here. What trump's? Prime motivations are is. Much more self interested and much more direct. And this came up a bit in the hearing. Yesterday. We're bar finally after many many delays. made his. Appearance. In before the House and. Initiate the questioning so bad in general, but at one point, Naylor was asking him about these deployments and. What sort of conversations bar had with trump about them for the most part bar wouldn't answer. But at one point, he had a very fascinating response. As to the nature of what? Might be. Is the topic of the election. I didn't say I was surprised I. Just ask you if you've done that. So as part of those conversations with the president. Or as. The election campaign, have you ever discussed the current or future deployment of federal law enforcement? In connection with what in connection with what you just said in connection with the with your discussions with the president or with other people around him of his reelection campaign, have you discussed the current of future deployment, federal law enforcers? I? I'm not going to get into my discussions with the president, but I've made it clear that I would like to pick the city's based on law enforcement need and based on neutral crates. You can't tell me whether you discussed not. I'm not going to discuss what I discussed with. You commit today that the department will not use federal law enforcement as a prop in the president's reelection campaign. We. Thought first of all. I. Just wish there had made this an actual. Questioning and leaden, let bar Ganster and. Give them enough rope basically. To Pencil out there. But that aside, bars response here is fascinating because. He's offering us up for no apparent reason. He's asked about what sort of conversations you have with trump and in terms of federal cities, and for the most part, I can't answer that. The President Oh, by the way, the one thing I will tell you winning I will volunteer is that I made it very clear to him that my preference would be to His Excellency based on quote unquote. Neutral criteria. Which? Raises the issue. What? What was the opposition there? What was trump's point that bar was trying to make clear against and to me I? Think it's very clear here what bar was. Essentially, telegraphing is that what trump was requesting was for these deployments be made based on twenty twenty campaign considerations and Bar was trying to get the record a widened support that my preference was to deploy federal agents based on. You know things that theoretically. would be valid basis for doing. So citing the whole thing. But basically this lager want or need and the whatever these neutral material are as opposed to, where can I get the most Fox News coverage for the most political benefit from these deployments. I just looked up dead operation for Portland is called Operation Diligent Valor. That that sounds like kind of name that give. You know bar was called in yesterday for a hearing and the hearing. I mean, this was specifically related to these deployments, right? The wolves about everything. But but that was his response. He only really answer. He gave about wise points are happening. Interesting today though is that the operation legend team announced that they were going to expand to three cities? CLEVELAND, DETROIT MILWAUKEE. Which? Is it if extremely curious asset in that? There's no. It's not like we're something having an over like writing crime search, those three cities, it's that those cities are there there in Ohio, Michigan Wisconsin, which are currently going to be extremely important battleground for trump toy election Again, there's no sort of paper trail for for them to and testifying before the house about trump talking to do this, which is not going to happen I, don't know how that will be proven, but it does appear between bars comments in this that what trump's doing here is trying to. Solidify in these states and to cause enough resentment and fear toxicity that he somehow. finagle that intuit election win. But the purpose appear to me. I, think he's trying to create a culture war. He's trying to get culture war going again and he's trying to. He's hoping at that will. Shout down the issues with coveted and everything else that people will get so mad about the culture issues and that we need to support, you know a federal police are police. that. You know people will forget that over one hundred and fifty thousand Americans. Have died in the economy's in the takes Oh. Yeah. But it also explains why these taskforce are so. Amorphous. Why their actual goals seem? Somewhat hard to understand what the actual. What what are the objectives are trying to do here because the actual objective, just to get footage for TV for Fox News. That's the real ultimate purpose of these events, and it's not like targeted crimefighting, not targeted city enforcement. It is to stoke the cultural were and best way possible for trump's reelection campaign. Yeah. Did you see DOJ put out Some pictures on you might have been on twitter and Hannity, picked it up, and they said it's pictures of contraband and weapons used by protesters, and it was umbrellas. And Explores Leaf blower right. All these things that are not weapons and then they call him contraband, I'm like Oh my gosh. So it's crazy I don't think it was a fat agency at my favorite was the. because. Maybe Seattle where a police like like. By. Protesters, and it was just candles look like plain regular white candles. Yeah. Yeah So, what here's what? I WanNa know what is there any mechanism in place as any like legal force? That can? Prevent the trump from being able to do this in in cities and in states where a state officials and local officials don't want them there. The. States have some mechanisms and we can see what the Portland are. The Organ Governor is trying to do right now It is interesting to see as happens when this was going on in DC when when the feds were taking over. Our. Streets. It, did seem like it's because of DC's unfortunate status is taxation without representation and that our inability to govern ourselves. Being demonstrated by trump's ability to deploy. Where we wanted to. But it would seem this is not actually stripped the SEC issue. There's definitely more power that trump has indie DC, but he's not doing this in an actual full sovereign states. So. The primary force to counteract this is the states themselves But again, getting courses GONNA be slow. Trump can win their through attrition by time. And for the most part, the options that the governors have is for negotiation and to try and convince the the feds to get out. I mean, it's politics. It's just dirty politics at this point. Jen. What do you? What do you think is the best course of action for for citizens in these in these areas than is, is their best bet. Then just to give them nothing to be able to film, don't leave their homes emptied the streets. You know I, I, go back and forth with thinking about that and I. Don't think it's I. Don't think it's right for me to suggest that people shouldn't protests are especially when the protest for black lives matter right and there are always going to be a lot of these people that we see that are creating. problems, sitting fires and stuff Many of the people that that have done that that have been arrested at a you know in the last go around lots. Months were actually white supremacist and in people trying to cause. Issues so I. Always support protesting i. just feel that always has to be peaceful. And and unfortunately what that means right now is is. That you might get hit with a baton and you might get hit with pepper spray, and if you're the type of person who's going to swing back, then maybe you shouldn't be there or maybe you can protest another way, but I think you know the data John Lewis is. Is. Kind of reminds us of how that was done and and how they moved. people's opinions and views during that time. They did it through non-violence and they made the police look as bad as they are. They're the ones throwing the sticks. They are the ones causing the terror. So so when people fight back You know like you said, it gives them something that they'll repeat over and over and over again, we saw yesterday during the hearing with bar when they play that like nine minute video or whatever it was where they just showed people beating up. You Know New York, city P cars and setting them on fire and stuff like that. I. Think the more people, the more vets, the MOMS out there peacefully, demonstrating better, it's their courthouse, right? It's era is black lives matter to choose where they want to protest and and you know it's paid for by tax payer dollars and and you know that's a freedom that we still have right now in this country. So I think there should be just. And if island like an elmo violence and vandalism at protests is nothing new, it's not unique to block does not unique to any kind of protests like it's just a thing, but often happens in protest and it shouldn't, but it does. Use that as an excuse to end all protest is an extremely take a typical new and which would have the effect of preventing. All Princeton. America. Full Stop. I'm old enough to remember when a whole lot of very angry white supremacist guns were up at the courthouse, where was it like in Wisconsin or wherever it was you know so. It's not about the protests. It's about the people. I think we all agree here and also de Escalation by the office responding with that is the number one mark of how. Cannon, we'll get violent when the off stress things the protests start laid back. It is a feedback system that we see in time and time again. So there are well known like this is not like a novel situation. We're facing like people like the officers know how to respond to purchase lawmaking turn violent. They're not doing that. Would you say DIS officers do jen? I feel like I, read one of your pieces of what you said that they probably don't have the kind of training need for Oh, the the federal officers gas different. I mean. Speaking, specifically to see be inboard tat the I knew for a fact that. You know one of the things that DHS does and in in the chief of the Border Patrol Chief Scott does the they'll put things out there. That aren't true and that's Kinda. I can smell when they're lying because it kind of these these hamsters washed worsted this the other day an oppressor he said. Well these agents are certified in in crowd control. And then Kinda the room what quiet and he goes, and he moved on real quick and I'm like. So. Like more check is they had crowd control experience, but they have crowd-control training based at ports of entry where. Hundreds of migrants are rushing the port trying to come through and like I said there's It's They team, it was either it's just not that. That that's an arena that has less constitutional rights than the rest of the United. States. So. Their methods of crowd control and how they behave. Or Way Different Than Than Hell, like your local police department might have crowd control training. Their training is more military style training. There's a difference between military training in dealing with people is injury combatants, which is how the border trains and how they deal with people and CPI, BP versus you know. Any Police Department Chicago Police Department may vary police department. That, there's a big difference, right? Let's get back to the hearing Susan. Can you give us some of the highlights and again gen? Please feel free to jump in anytime. You have a thought or contribution to make. Susan, you want to give us some highlights from hearing. Yeah. There were no highlights. I mean. I. It I've bars testify for a long time, and he has delayed it and delayed it sometimes for good reasons for batteries on this happened ridgely back in like March, and then could happen. He does it for a while. And on the one hand frustrating, he escaped oversize long on the other hand like I knew we all knew everyone knew it was going to ultimately be. Disappointing flop because. The system we have oversight. So important right now like the actual nuts and bolts of it, we need more of it. But. The system we have in place. It's just incapable of providing it especially when subpoenas the only real. Use for oversight right now are limited by the constant litigation and flat out refusals, the trump administration. So you know. I wanted this to happen. I. Was very interesting thing what would happen. But like if I didn't get my hopes up until good thing, I didn't because they would have been let down. What we're getting your hopes up for I. Guess For me this beautiful factual information being drawn out from bar. which it was, there were a few things on like it's not so much getting him to factual information like that's the typical idea oversight. But let's be real bars. I can do that. But getting bar to make statements on the record showed in the goal getting him to. As much as possible, put them into black and white terms. Start on the record answers is what they needed to do. Instead with everything hearing ever used much politicians that both sides grandstanding giving speeches and talking far more than Bard, which is not how it should be So you know all that said, there was some question, thousand others. And there was some interesting points that were drawn out like whether or not. He would accept the results of election. Oh, God I mean. That was a waste of question because like everyone's like. Oh. So if the elections clear trump Austin isn't leave, what would you do in bars? Answer is well On January twentieth at leave okay one. There's no scenario which is going to be like, oh, totally clear that trump lost. So everyone knows he lost and he's GonNa stay the whole point of all this spring right now is making sure it's not going to be clear. So they'll never be a scenario where bars confronted with President trump having a clear quote unquote loss. And the trump stay. No, he'll find a way the money the water, find a way to say it was rigged. In, bars supporting efforts by claiming baselessly that that election could be erected by males allowed. So when Barr says that he'll just leave trump clearly listened stays. Okay. Sure, but also it's all. You'RE GONNA. Do you're just GONNA leave like you're not going to? Stand up against it like your response ag bar would be just to say, okay, well, he lost so I will leave quietly in the night. Not Helpful. And then we get to the whole point about vote by mail I'm here is represented scanlon who questioned him about it. But the problem we're facing is that the president has repeatedly sought to cast doubt on the security of mail in ballots saying that the twenty twenty election could be rigged with quote, millions of mail in ballots printed by foreign countries and quote, and you sir, have repeated this disinformation. Information I have a question for you yet Garrett comes. last month, you echoed the president's conspiracy theory. When you suggested in at least three interviews that quote foreign countries could manufacture counterfeit ballots and quote to influence the presidential election. Correct. At least three hundred. Okay. But in fact, you have no evidence that foreign countries can successfully swear elections with counterfeit ballots you. Know I don't, but I have come. Okay well, and that's what you responded when you were directly challenged on that. You said, no, no, you didn't have evidence, but it was obvious. According to state election officials. Your alleged concerns here are not obvious, but in fact are outrageous. Every state in the Union has absentee ballots. Two thirds of the states allow for vote by mail by for any reason, five states, Colorado Oregon Washington Hawaii, and Utah vote entirely by mail and have done. So for decades, even the US military uses mail in ballots doesn't it? Okay. So isn't it true that after you suggested without evidence that foreign adversaries could swear elections using counterfeit ballots, election experts, and officials from around the country said that what you suggested was virtually impossible preposterous would never happen and would be readily detected due to the multiple levels of security used with in ballots systems. There are multiple levels of security. Okay. Well. So I don't I, don't agree that it's that it's. Claiming and again, I'm happy to supply you with the. Statements. that. WERE DONALD TRUMP? So. This is a good example of one of the few times where it is useful and acceptable to do more of the talking the witnesses and these hearings because. She is getting him on the record on a few key points, but still even here, getting more statements from bar would have been helpful i. wish she had done that but that's What we get from here, here is an acknowledgement that like there is no evidence whatsoever for election being rig stuff beyond quote commonsense as he put it and he has no evidence to support any claims that well, but he's supporting publicly and will enable trump to say the election was rigged are android. When he loses was this the issue, it wasn't able to watch the hearing. I. Just saw little blips here and there was this the that he was questioned in regards to whether or not. He was aware of what trump tweeting or is that on about a different issue that was on all the issues are so retweets. Like Oh, my God. It bars answer is the same as every other politicians answer like, Oh, I'm GonNa wear of that tweet even when he was clearly aware of the tweet because it would have been stuff those quoted in the report, he'd be asked by Oh aware about tweet, but he was absolutely aware of mean altogether report, he was also asked about election or about. Asking for foreign assistance in an election. Right. He was. Let's. Let's hear how there is it ever appropriate serve for the president to solicit or accept for an assistance in an election. Depends what kind of assistance. Is it ever appropriate for the president or presidential candidate to accept or solicit foreign assistance of any kind in his election? No, it's not appropriate. Okay. Sorry. You had to struggle with. Yeah that was that was bars less than firm opposition to trump accepting foreign assistance election. there was questioning on Roger Stone nothing useful. There I was really accomplished. And then we had the stuff that I I was really interested in, which is the whole Burma. Therapy. Berman also testified on the hill recently, and that was a very useful hearing. But same time Birmingham was playing by the rules and he would not talk about ongoing the stations as they should not as the bedrock rule, don't talk about going stations. It's the rule that Komi broken won the election for trump. So he didn't get what happened in. Sdn. Why or why it's possible that trump wanted him out of there asap. But here's when. For instance when I was in Ghost, try to ask about the Berman thing here is help on responded. General on June eighteenth of this year, the Department of Justice issued a statement saying that Mr Berman a former US attorney for the southern district of New York had quote stepped down. You're aware of that statement being released by the department. Correct. And do you testify today that that statement was true at the time? The department issue? You may not have known. It was stepping. He was stepping down. That's your testimony today in removed. Mr Attorney. General statement did not say that he was being removed. It did not say that he was being fired. It said that he was stepping down. Your testimony today is that that was in fact accurate when Mr Bourbon his testified under oath? In. Fact was not. Yeah. So like like Berman Bar would not discuss details of was doing and why wasn't destinations were ongoing y trump's tax returns? Are you know financial transactions by relevant? But. The thing is bar unlike Berman applies this role very selectively because bar had no problem talking about another ongoing investigation, I'm John Durham one into the Russia investigation, which is investigating investigators specification. And probably the biggest news coming out of this, and it's not good news. Is that bar said that the general typical DOJ policy that investigations impact election. Are Stopped do not publicized in the lead up to the election that will not apply the Durham report which. No surprise because the whole point, the Durham imports help trump win a reelection. Did. You guys see George. Stephanopoulos his tweet. This morning is Jordan. WHO'S PUPPET UP? With yeah you. Did you see his tweet this morning about about He has heard he has been informed that treason charges are being considered for those people. Responsible for the fake Russia investigation. Go now. I only probably pop it out for the soap opera drama with his wife. So. I know that getting back to what's up with them invading, you know this operation diligent valor. I know people are saying that he's trying to. Change the vote get people not to be able to vote, and that's why he's going into these cities and I. think that's true too. But from my intelligence and operational background. It also feels like. These are the cities that he imagines. The biggest protests are going to be when he refuses to leave. And and that. That's what they're gearing up for. That's what they're training for. That's what they're working on this weather preparing agents for. And if you ever have a chance and go to the. Border Patrol, at Union website or their twitter page. It's at BP, union on twitter every day at around four or five, o'clock. Pacific, Standard Time. They tweet out re tweet all this trump reelection campaign stuff. Yeah I'm serious, it's crazy. beat it out like. Watch Laura trump and blah blah blah, and Take America Great Again Watch Sean Hannity, and you know and the you all this stuff and and even their union president had they have a video on there where he's like why do more to protect the country from migrants in these criminals that are coming in only trump? Will you know it's so politically biased so. Win Trump loses. or when he messes the election up in claims that it's fake and on this other stuff and rigged he's depending on these border patrol agents and see BP and ice to defend him. And I. Think. That's a lot of what we're seeing I. Hope I'm wrong. I. Hope this is just you know that makes per back and say were wrong. I'm not going to go that far. Yet I. Think it is a concern that he my concern is that he is setting up mechanisms could be used for that I. Don't think that is the purpose are the conscious purpose indefinite has been communicated to these instances, but I think even aside from trump themselves. Just the generalize risk is why we don't think why we don't have this because it does create the possibility of. Happening, and I think for me him going into operation legend. seems very clearly directed at twenty twenty campaign benefits because again, I, don't think we're going to expect massive protests most damaging to trump to come out of. Kansas, city. Are, Milwaukee. But the other. Federal presence in major cities on the. East Coast. Elsewhere. I think there is more of a risk. They're more ties to the, White. House. These days are a picture of it in the miles and miles of fencing around. Layers of it. It's not even like one. It's like three or four layers of it. I just remembered the election night in two, thousand, eight and went on. We ended up right from the white. House on the road right in from the white. House. was a big crowd. They're just it was. Just people chanting and celebrating the streets. But like right next to the White House fence where we to walk for years. Now, since trump came in like that. That's The level. Of Difference where we have now like when Bush was in office, there was never a thought that like people shouldn't stand right where they've always stood next to the White House. And now that will never. Be Repeated in two thousand twenty. That's for sure because you can't even get like within five hundred yards of the white. House, and not the way hasn't self. Of course, the public areas additionally everyone can can use like play softball on the lips or to take a shortcut through. Pennsylvania. So who will save us Well I can guarantee you will not be bill bar. Let's move on and we are GonNA, talk once again, we we did not start this week at the top of this show with Kobe News, what we usually do. But Gosh, there's a lot to talk about and our briefings are back Yay. We get to see president trump every day again. So. Let's start there. Did you know that trump has a new tone rubio? We, have a new more sombre, more serious trump this time for real I. GotTa I. GotTa. Tell you. You can just see how hard he is controlling himself. He's a come on. You can do it. You can do it. You can be presidential. I. Want to watch the briefings or is it do we just? It's torture. I watched the highlights of it, but it's so funny because it's like he does it. He, he stays on topic in for a couple of days or. Until the mainstream press, all like goodies freely presidential, and then the very next day. He's all hydrochloric. Again, you know and he he just goes crazy. I don't know Jim. You're giving way too much credit. You're giving the media way too much credit here because they started doing this new tone staff when trump announce redoing briefings again. But before we actually have them and in the very, very, very, very first briefing, this happened in our politics lead. Lead now, even some trump is trump supporting Republicans expressed outrage yesterday when president trump extended well-wishes to Glenn. Maxwell Maxwell has been charged with conspiring with the now dead pedophile Jeffrey Epstein to sexually abuse teenage girls, trump and maxwell have been photographed together. But in an interview with CNN, another former Epstein business partner said that the two knew each other. Well, I. Don't know. I haven't really been following it too much i. just wish it well, frankly. I've met her numerous times over the years especially since I lived in Palm. Beach. And I guess they lived in Palm Beach but I wish her well. Whatever it is I. Don't know the situation with Prince. Andrew? Just don't know not aware of it. It's just. Do. You think he's just does it on purpose or do you think he's just relieved that dense like he? He does it. Yes. No I think he's I. Think like what his response to this was just like his natural response because I think he has absolutely no issues with her I. think that was it was such a natural easy response came from him. No, no, I don't think it's. The question though. Robbie. The question that was very specific. It's not like generic. Hey, what about Maxwell health about her, the question he was asked was. You think just lay maxwell has like dirt on powerful people she can use against them. That was the question and trump's response was. I partied with her in West Palm Beach, all the time I wish her well. excuse me the trump is an idiot and says dumb things, but this is very specific dumping. which again is such an idiot. We can't rule out the you know. Mine Far. Voice others, I, don't. I'm willing to indulge conspiracy theories here because. There's no explanation for why said that beyond him being too stupid to be president, which is or a? He's wishing the child rapists and child sex trafficker. Well, because again he partnered with her all the time. and. Again. I think that's it. I think that's there's nothing to rule it out. Okay. Put it. This way if trump was one of the powerful men who? Had Dirt on how to respond like that. Exactly like that a reminder that he wishes her well again, the president. So he's the only one who can really stop the shit was happening to her, so she needs to play ball with him. That's how he'd respond. It's a tough call for him because I think he also, he suggested that she also has stuff on. Clinton, and so he's probably like how do I get who? Released dirt on just certain people and not me, right? Yeah. Well. Aside from wishing child sex traffickers. Well, trump's new tone didn't last very long on twitter either because yesterday or two days ago whenever this happened. He started tweeting out breitbart videos. Including this one. About. Dr Corcoran I came here to Washington DC to tell America nobody needs to get sick. This virus has accused Scott Hydroxy chloroquine, zinc zithromax. I know you wanNA talk about mask. Hello. You don't need mosque. There is a cure I know they're all to open schools. No, you don't need to people to be locked down. There is prevention and there is a cure yet. That is Dr Stella Manual Trump's. New favorite doctor probably our futures surgeon general. You know the thing about trump is. He he gets away with everything. He's always gotten away with everything. You suppose her boy for White Rich. Privilege. So. Why should he bother to even try and cover it up? Wait has either is either of you reading married trump book? No, not yet. How many other things to to to to than to read that? All right. So let's talk a little bit about the night. He he tweeted out his clip, the they a manual clip wasn't the night. He tweeted re tweeted like fourteen tax doctor foul G. as well. Like he was losing at night. You know that is very possible. I. Cannot say I stayed up watching those tweets. I was up, I couldn't sleep at night. But I I. Do insist that we call this week's episode demon sex like I'm just not even negotiating there. What about containers demons? I like that one too. Okay. I. Don't know anything about containers for demons. The demon sex here is a doctor man ills opinions on what causes women to have medical problems we met here. She was sitting right there. She has been fantasizing about one of the movie stars. Came to give ground doing Praia. She stopped at screaming hostile was food was pregnant. She was adding of accounts she was. Coming out screaming like she was in level. She sent. Of Me. Stomach deflated I. Yeah her beliefs about. Incubated and suck you by incubus. Insects occupants. Whatever. It is her belief about. Magical, demon sex donald standing. She also has interesting ideas on aliens and clip Dr Emmanuel Containers for Demons. Using all kinds of Guinea alien to two people. Mixing human. Beings. With demons he must. Creating containers for, demons? Inhabit. My call them whatever the bill, all kinds of things in a demon Carter said I've been working on and being being, what did they? Bring confusion. Out of Donald's, YEP my favorite part of all this material need like the part of this healthcare scape. That's probably the funniest is that the daily beast had a great article explaining. It was it was valuable because Dr, the daily Beast explained Doctor Manuals view just to make sure we understood exactly what sort of. mythos. Religious beliefs what to call it. Whatever medical background she was coming from and laid out the whole. Demon sexting and you had like Tucker Carlson and rush limbaugh like losing your shit over and their shows yesterday talking about how his job and it was like revenge for her attacking fatty for the record the head. The title of this piece is trump's new cobra doctor says sex with demons. Make you sick? Yes. Yes, and and so we have Carlson and limbaugh being like all daily beast attacked that her there's mad about her attack on faculty, and then we have Dr Manual or self tweeting out the article with. The daily beast did a great job summarizing deliverance ministry and exposing incubus. Cuba's thank you daily. If you need deliverance from these spirits contact us. I feel like I'm an insult endanger dear but here's the thing though still a manual is not alone. There's there was a group of doctors, right? Like in this video that circulating about the Clark. Win. And in fact, there's some Hashtag than I and I don't remember which doctor was but the doctor said that yesterday she her group of other. Other doctors met with Mike Pence, about how they are being politically. They need political I. Don't know what like they need political support to be able to prescribe hydrochloric chloroquine and right now they're being like you know like politically it's day, politically can't do it, but they want to be able to do it. You guys are, are you aware of this? News that was reported at this meeting. I saw some tweets from some doctors about it. But Rather. I'm not a word that. But I I. Do know that. Or isn't Coda now suddenly GonNa be oh. Yeah. Heating at sea chloroquine. So. What did you say Kodak creating some SEC cases insider trading problems? Let's do. My husband has become a day trader and just right before we got on, he told me how Kodak like went from like. Eighteen. Bucks like sixty in like an hour like just earlier. and. Announced it in his his covid speech that. I. Think there are correct me if I'm wrong. But I think they're getting some kind of government funding to switch over in the pharmaceutical company and they're gonNA start a massive massive loan. Yes. Yeah. Massive on. They're gonNA start a producing hydrochloric win and I'm like we have plenty of pharmaceutical companies and so then the stock went through the roof. So somebody's invested in that. You know. Well, the stock went through the roof on Tuesday. That's when they now it was made. That's when it. You know how this huge dramatic like two thousand plus percent increase in value. This morning it hard. Because my husband was made he my husband traded it. But but on Monday on Monday before the announcement was made. There was a sudden surge massive surge in trading. So someone had some US ahead of time about this new pharmaceutical company that was going to a lot of government money. For some bizarre reason. I still don't understand the trump saying that they are going to be manufacturing drugs chloroquine. Decide that or you just say that he was going to be there, he said it, but it was reported L. A. Afterwards I believe, but I could be wrong. Check me on that. But from my understanding is that's one of the products at the well, here is trump's response to learning about the demon sex are. What he thinks about Dr, manual now after learning about her other views. May Not surprise you that has not really changed his spending much. Nineteen both of which health experts say through. She's also made video saying that doctors make medicine using DNA from aliens and that they're trying to create a vaccine to make you immune from becoming religious. It's not, but I can't. I can tell you this. She was on air along with many other doctors. There were big fans of hydroxy chloroquine and thought she was very impressive in the sense that from where she came I, don't know which country she comes from. But she said that she's had tremendous success with hundreds of different patients and I thought her voice was an important voice, but I, know nothing about her. Thank you very much everybody. There is like a whole new like push. This week has been a really hard pushed for hydroxy chloroquine end. Something happening but can we talk about what Navarro said would I mean which is insane to me God? Can we just have the news media stop booking him to create train wrecks just booked all the time always a disaster. That's the only reason we're hearing from the sky pushes disinfect because no, he'll be like he'll just explode and then it'll be good for the ratings and then Vicious, cycle, yeah, Anyway Navarro is also. Dr Cohen. And he is bragging about how they have millions, millions of doses on hand. So so that's what's happened. Basically trump used taxpayer dollars to buy millions and millions of doses, and now he's GonNa move it is that what's what's happening here? I, mean. Or? Part of it, he says a financial stake. Again it's trump's, you can't totally discount just the he can't be wrong factor like all of the seems like it's got like some sort of dump plan behind. It are some kind of various angle. But this is the dude who needed the hurricane to hit Alabama. Because? He thought it would. So. I. Don't rule out the possibility that all this. All sorts of Corrigan push is just because trump said, it was good. So now it has to be good Mike gone all I see that you've found the tweet and it was Dr. Simone Gold and she tweeted update we this is from yesterday we just met with Vice President Mike Pence to request the administration's assistance empowering doctors to prescribe a drastic chloroquine without political obstruction. We also discussed the recent censorship of doctors on social media platforms and that censorship meeting I think facebook and twitter deleted Dr Manuals Videos, right? Is that what happened Yup? They deleted all this nonsense that's coming out and they put. Trump junior on twitter timeout. I'll do they because he was he kept kept tweeting about it. So they should get discount for a few hours. They're all just moving to parlor. anyways. So. That's still around. So still exists still exists. All right. So Is there any other Kobe news other than like obviously increasing? No. There is we have some breaking Cova News today. So. At the bar hearing other day. We had a representative Louie Gohmert. Who was there at the hearing? He appeared in person not wearing a mask because he usually doesn't. Here's what happened at the hearing yesterday but. What occurred to me hearing this allegation about this administration helping spread covid. Would it be a good idea. Then perhaps, if that's the big concern here, that may be the federal government should shut down the protests during this Kobe. Nineteen. Spread so that we can satisfy our colleagues that you're doing more to stop it. Is that ever been a consideration? No, I've never considered. Well. It would apparently stop some of the allegations being thrown here. Now, I know you know history. Yeah. So gohmert was supposed to taxes today with trump, which means he gets one of the special. Trump like. Cove in nineteen tests, and for that reason, and that reason alone we now know. Gohmert has the Kobe. God Yeah Gohmert has the Kobe and. He was at the hearing without a mask. Close Bar close to others. It gets it gets worse after being diagnosed after getting to positive test to confirm it was not a false positive. What did you do? It right back to his office on the hill. So he could tell US staff person about the news, and so they didn't have to hear it from the news. Today? Yeah. His response was that I go straight back to his office. So he can tell staffers. Oh, by the way you're GonNa hear on the news. Now, I've got cove in nineteen he. Probably I'm sure he's going to be all over that, and then his response was to go on the news, give an interview from his rational office where he said it 'cause he because he started wearing mass more often recently as wife now, sick. Art So. We're going to wrap up with them. So this will interview I. Think, I, don't know if it's air today or they started promoting it today, but it's a, it's an interview that trump just did with axios. And this one, four minute clip that's been circulating social media. This morning, it's just jaw dropping and trump was asked specifically, look, you had a call Putin a couple of when was it earlier this week or something yesterday? was yesterday and he was asked, well, did you ask him about the bounties? No doubt there is dispute and intelligent made about your former. John Nixon former head of forces in Afghanistan said, this is when he was working for you. That Russia is supplying weapons to the Taliban. Isn't that enough to challenge pollution over the killings of? Weapons. When they were fighting Russia to you know when we were were they were fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan's different era. Well, excited I'm just saying. Yes. We did that too. But how does I don't know I didn't ask Nicholson about that. He was there for a long time. Didn't have great success because you know he was there before me and then ultimately I made a change. You heard that, right? I. Mean. It's well known in the until. That arming the Taliban Russia. I don't know when you say arming is Italian pain or the US find weapons. The Taliban. I have heard that but it's never again. It's never reached my desk and he said it on the record when he was in Russia, doesn't want anything to do with Afghanistan. Let me just about Russia Russia used to be a thing called the Soviet Union because of Afghanistan they went bankrupt. They became Russia just so you understand. Okay. The last thing that Russia wants to get too much involved with Afghanistan. They tried that once it didn't work out. Yeah. There was like a ninety nine percent chance that he got this response from Putin, and this is about the. the Russians giving arms to the Taliban. Because that's a typical Russian response, it's like the. And you are lynching Negroes response, which is what Russia always does to any kind of the what aboutism Yeah Yeah. and. That is almost certainly like he didn't get this from the US. He's smart thinking zone. He Got Putin, but there's one hundred percent chance that like what he's doing here is serving Russian interest expense the United States. There's no pro US explanation for why he decision it just. Insane, he's not debating. He'll. He's claiming that the bounty story isn't true and there is mixed intelligence on that. But no one disagrees that Russia is buying an arming the Taliban. So they can kill American troops. There's no doubt there. Trump's not even to student but. Does, not doesn't care if he's fine with it, either way using. So do we the Taliban at some point? he does keep repeating though and this frustrating to me to watch because. Well, if it reached my desk, it never reached my desk. I. Mean. It's a blatant lie did. Yes. Are you saying trump lied Robert. Are you saying that that he something century truthful won't I'M NOT? Only. My frustration is with a journalist who is kind of trying mumbling response. Mental. Mumma. Response sailed this date. It was in a briefing on your desk, and this is the first report has actually gotten him to answer the questions that substantively its whole story broke weeks ago, and this is like the most in-depth answer garden and it was just him rambling, which is the general public trump generals that he has no actual substance to them. So any response you going to be like this? But this is I mean, this is just It was dropping, but also a drop in the bucket because it's not going to be a lasting mark. Republicans are okay with it. Everyone knows that he's going to side with Russia over American troops, and we just kind of price that in you know I i. You think there's GonNa. Be a line that's going to be too far, and you would think the lives of American soldiers servicemen women would be that line. That would make GOP said no, this is enough but even that I mean I guess you know the I mean American school children that line. There's no line. I. Guess I mean like you know. Endorsing the medical advice of the demon sex. Lady was not wind. Do like bet, that's fine. They're now they're not going in there now, pro demon sex lady I mean, the not produce insects are antitax her her plus these anti, but they're pro the ladies anti-demint sex. Because trump is. Wow. All right. Okay. So there's more. But we just don't have the time for unfortunately. But before we wrap up I o have a couple questions for you agenda. I is one thing I'm curious about is. Have you gotten a response from either like other ex call like your ex colleagues or others who have left these agencies what has been the response of the agency to you. Houses affected your relationship with people who are still in the agency and have others defected to like you. So I talked to a few who are whistle blowers that are still on the inside But. The majority of people that I worked. Saw have retired and I don't talk to them Oh, I did have actually one. Person when I knew him, he was in our class graduated, and then he resigned the came back years later, He's transition now to a female and he corroborated all my stories and stuff, but still an agent And just disabled somehow to to separate. You know his opinions about the SA- rights and everything. Just do his job that just seeing a lot of times as a job. a lot of times they send. Agents after me to tell me, you know you're doing great. You're talking about your time in the patrol and but it's changed is different from winning Marin agent and stuff like that But for the most part I, just get a lot of hate mail on that chemist also. Well, thanks for everything. You do Thanks I. Mean People should certainly you online your I, run a numerous number of your articles on medium. But can you tell our listeners? What's your handle on twitter? So they can fall you there and how else they can do all your work and your writing. On twitter, my handle is my name backwards B. U D D J E N N. So by Jen and post everything that I, I write on there so. Your twitter feed is great I I learned so much from it and I encourage everybody to follow you there. Thank you so much for coming on and we'd love to have you back some time. And Susan. Thanks for. Thanks for talking about demon sex. At. Time Robbie. This Week? And and I guess that's it for us this week. Thank you guys for tuning in. We'll be back in seven days be safe where amounts stay home and stay with demons. All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate it so much. A big. Thanks to all our listeners for tuning in to the forty fifth podcast week after week, and if you'd like to give us further support, you can do that by becoming a patron at Patriot. Dot Com slash forty fifth pod by doing. So you can become a supporter and patron for as little as five bucks a month to do. So again, good a patriot, dot com slash forty fifth pod a shoutout, and thank you to our sponsors. Sponsors, they make this program possible and I urge our listeners. So please check out our sponsors and use their products and thank you them for helping us produce week after week. Thank you to our audio producer McCarthy, our executive producer meet fell hand, and you can find us on social media. We are on twitter facebook. INSTAGRAM are handle is at forty fifth pod. Our website is www dot forty fifth pod dot com. THANKS AGAIN FOR TUNING IN CNN.

Donald Trump trump president Border Patrol Portland Susan United States BP twitter San Diego Union ATF New York Dr Stella Manual Trump John FBI PTSD X. Border Patrol assault
150 - The Birthday of Lee Marvin

Welcome to Night Vale

26:21 min | 1 year ago

150 - The Birthday of Lee Marvin

"It's summer and that means two things going to the beach in going on tour. Let's start with the beach. We have four brand new beach towels in our store today, featuring new designs from Jessica Hayworth, Ian Burke, rob Wilson. And of course, a towel with the Knight fail logo on it now, every member of the family can have their own knife, L beach, Dow, and all the designs will be different assuming your family has exactly four in it. These towels are delightful, and honestly, you may end up just hanging them up on your wall. I won't tell check them out at welcomes Knight dot com and click on store next up, our tour. We're heading back out on the road in less than a month with shows in Birmingham Chattanooga Nashville Cincinnati and Cleveland, these will be some of our last performances of a spy in the desert has surprising thrilling story about secrets the show actually has a secret in it. You may or may not ever get to know it. That's the. Nature of secrets plus dream boy, a podcast set in Cleveland is going to be our opening act. So you don't wanna miss that homecoming. Get your tickets at welcome tonight found up com slash live as usual were taking July off. But we'll be back with another year of knife L on August. I see then, and hey, wear sunscreen, he Jeffrey Craner here. I want you to feel and be creative. So I'll tell you about a cool creative thing for may eighteenth to June twenty-ninth, join the story makers festival at the new apple Carnegie library, forty inspiring creators, from DC will be leading free creative sessions, you'll learn hands on how to shape your story through photography video music arts, and design visit apple dot CO slash story makers festival to reserve your spot. That's apple dot CO slash story makers festival, highest squishy, humans, Deb. Added again as usual talking till your mortal forms pass away. Welcome once again, this son has risen. Goodwin son? We're all very impressed by the same trick for the millionth day in a row. I'm Dana cardinal, welcome to loves. Loves a nice home for your well to welcome. Welcome everyone. Oh. Oh man. I'm supposed to prepare some sort of start to this thing. Dan, you for every time every time? Come on. Steve, you have a responsibility here Steve. You're better than this, Steve. Sorry, got sorry. Welcome tonight. Listeners it is a very special day today. That's right. It's Carlos and is sixth anniversary. Yes. We count that first night at the arby's, looking up at those lights as the start, and why not something has to be the start and that felt like the first moment of it the rest of our lives. It's especially emotional this anniversary because recently, we did not exist for a brief period, then we both did exist again, but I had forgotten about our entire life together. I've cents remembered, and it has been especially tender between us such things happen in any marriage, that has gone on for enough years. And so it served us as a good reminder of who we are in each other's lives. But it's not just a special day for us. Oh, no. It's also. Oh, wow. The thirtieth birthday of legend of stage and screen, Mr Lee Marvin. Let's take a listen to a special message from the birthday man himself. Hello. It is my birthday again. Well, happy birthday to me happy birthday to all of us. It's all of our birthdays this year. Congratulations us. But it's only for so much longer. Tired floating on time, like a lazy river, gone stale. It's time for me to reach out to seize. Alter. I'm so tired. Sleep, Anita cannon. I can't sleep. But also, I wish that I could. Both the wish and the ability exist within me. This will be the last day that I turned. I have been climbing narrow rock chimney. But today I let go and fall into deep clear waters. Thanks for all the birthday wishes. It really. It really has mental. Okay. Kind of a bummer of a birthday message with let's move on. And now the financial news and now the financial news or whatever looks like Saks are up, which is great for people who own stocks, who are statistically already wealthy enough that stocks being up or down doesn't fundamentally affect their lives. And those of us without stocks. Well, then the health of the stock market has little relationship to Tony. I see that you are reading the financial news. Yes. I'm looking at you right now. No not behind your shoulder. I see you glancing back. No. Not out the window either. Tony look up. Look up. Tony the great work began mel's e I'm VP of counting the last Bank of night, Vale I can count very high. So I'm uniquely situated to explain these figures to you, so, okay. You see what the graph is going down. That means that the price is. Lower. Or maybe the stock is or it's all going up. Hold on, then looking at this sideways. Oh, this isn't a graph at all. It's a picture of Lee Marvin. Why do bad things happen to good people? Ron question. The question is, why do things happen. I have seventeen dollars in my Bank account. And my teenage father is living with me, so things are going great here. Eight percent the highest percentage in the last three years, and this has been financial news. Meanwhile, a last-minute birthday party for Mr Lee Marvin has been arranged at gino's Italian dining experience and bar and grill at five pm where we will also break the first three decades of Mr. Marvin's life by taking advantage of some great happy, hour deals, gino's, happy hours art super appetizing. The most popular item is a small bowl filled with polished pebbles, but they are damned cheap. And that is appreciated in these tough times when all of us are finding ourselves short on our bills, except the estate of the late, Marcus fenced-in, which now contains approximately fifteen percent of all. Money in the United States, but still has no designated beneficiary. This Marvin himself is not expected to attend his own party as he not feeling. Well, and also says that he has a plan to remove himself from this tired wheel of time. Well, feel better Lee and good luck on that. Hobby of yours. Sounds complicated. Can't exhausting. I'll have a chiron's and a bowl of pebbles in honor of you. Knightdale. We are town of good intentions. Once there was a God. Her name was on Takhar. And she tried to save one little town. She acted with love the missiles came. And she reached out to shift the time line only a tad only enough to save us. And in that moment, her little town, shattered into millions of parallel towns, this place became a prison. God's love is a dangerous force. Once there was a woman who was a general. She wanted victory for a just cause. So she fought every battle over and over until time was jumbled up and overlapping and worn thin. She returned home and she died, but the wreckage she made of time. Renamed. And once there was man, an actor once but not much longer. Here, time and space have been scratched and scrunched worn down until they're translucent. I've reached out. And what if I pushed that? To the thin place. Happy birthday to me. Duty. We'll Vokes there's the hour, and it's time to you've door, usual checks, and such. Check in on it on the, you know, the. What's the word and standing on your roof friend off? Yes, randolph. That's my pacing. You hear back and forth on these cheap clay tiles that needed replacing three years ago. There will be rain Randolph someday. And then there will be leaks. That's a certainty. Don't believe me. Let's take a look at. That's that for all that listeners. I'm getting tired. Just reporting on all this life. Can't imagine how tired all of you are from living. So let's all take a break together, and go to the forty three twelve. Nine fifty five thirty seventeen. The weather. To the weather. Because I am a champ in and you're gonna hear me. Another. You already you would. All the days weeks on folding is we buttoned up our coats. Snow. Phases. Senior. Explain. She. There are many night, Vale's. This isn't news. It's merely the fact of it. There's a night, Vale where the streets are rivers and the rain falls constantly from sun. The skies there's a night Vale where the mayor is a smiling, man and a night, Vale where the mayor is a brave woman. And of course, there is a night veil that has no mayor never will have one again. There's a Knight fail without a day. And there's a night fail without night. There's a night Vale where the dogs sing and the birds bark, there's a night Vale with no people only the angels, moaning and tapping their fingers. There's a night, Vale where I was never born, and there's a night, Vale. Flare will never die. There's a faceless old woman who secretly lives in your home. She's in every night, veiled areas. There's a night, Vale where time runs backwards and a night, Vale where time skips about, and there's a night, Vale where time doesn't work at all. That's this knightdale. Times weird. Time is weird everywhere. But it's a specially weird here. There's a night Vale where Dana is the voice of her town and night. Vale where Deb, the cinci patch of Hayes is the voice of her town and night, Vale where you are the voice of your town. An infinitude avoi- ses of an infinitude of night fails. But here and this night. Our voice is seasonal. Voice like distant traffic, avoi- Slyke strong coffee at midnight. Once there was a God with good intentions. Heartful of love. She shattered us into many versions of us. Once a general full of courage and victory. She twisted our time about itself lost us in a labyrinth of hours and years. Once there is a man his dreams were simple. He wanted to be an actor. That's all. To lie a little to audiences in a way that they liked being lied to. But time got stuck on him like go on a shoe. It was always his thirtieth birthday from the big bang to the tedious heat death of the universe. His thirtieth birthday forever time weighed on him. And so he looked out at every night Vale that has ever been and every night Vale that will ever be whole them. Swirling swinging through intertwining chronologies, and he concentrated very hard and he reached out one tired ancient. Thirty year old hand and stop them all. Just for moment. He stopped times gyrations. All is frozen. Water hangs in the air below elite king tap. The trees are sculpted by gust of wind, and haven't yet swung back to their natural state. The clouds former frozen pattern like snowdrifts in the sky. Avoidance of night. Vale sits in front of a microphone mouth open, but no words coming out all the voices in all of the night sales. On the highway out of town. Cars are stopped dead. Their drivers caught glancing at their phones or scratching their ears and thinking about what would finally make them happy. Or looking in the mirror and trying to gauge whether the car behind them belongs to the share of secret police farther out over the mountains and to the coast. The waves are stopped mid fall phone caught rising water. Caught tumbling an old man in Canada trips on a shoe discarded by his grandson. And there he remains hands out mid air, too late for anyone to save, but not yet colliding with the earth he will dislocate his knee. A soldier in China squint said a bird trying to decide which type birdied is really it's too distant to tell, but the soldier makes game of this to pass the TV. And so here they are squinting at a bird, but is stopped mid flight its wings outstretched catching win. That is no longer moving observe. The soldier in this moment, a thin slice of a long life. Out in low orbit a spindly silver being graceful super craft is caught in the instant win. It's a pin. Deg- is that are not really fingers. But we'll call them fingers even though technically are closer in function, two kidneys when it's fingers phase through the skull of seeping human that, that it has brought a board reaching into the humans memories, seeking out a clear understanding of a planet that the being has been tasked to observe. That planning and all of the other planets cease for a moment in their senseless hurdle to the vacuum. Suspended. The way they are diagrams. The story we tell ourselves of stasis and clear spatial relationships is for a moment. True an entire universe holds its breath. Then shift, my hand a little and years of time, click back into place and start again to move not quite as they were before they, they are on track. Now, they're tread a little truer. The beginning of my hand. Start of my. I take in air, I let out air and in the moment where the universe starts again. Something happens that has never happened before. Not in all of history. Today is a special day night. Vale Lee, Marvin star of stage and screen is. Oh, wow. Turning thirty one today. Happy birthday, Lee. You know it feels like our thirties, just fly by enjoy them while they last Lee. Marvin celebrated his birthday in a notably somber way. He stepped out onto his lawn. Nodding at passersby and various idiot birds, he spit through his teeth placed his hand on his hips watched the sun move for awhile. Then he nodded in approval of everything. He had seen and step back inside. Well, we all express happiness in our own ways. A few minutes ago. I got the most interesting voicemail from my most. Interesting husband Carlos. It's our six anniversary today. You know anyway he was so excited. I've never heard him talk so fast in his life. Carlos said he opened the clock that was on our mental piece at home. The one that was given to him by his mother the day he received his PHD the one. He brought with him tonight. Fail the one that after having come tonight. Vail. He opened to find that it was full of moss and for and human teeth. Time doesn't work in knightdale. He realized that he mourned the transformation of both the clock and is experience of the days and years of his life, but he still believes in keeping his possessions in perfect condition. And so today, he opened the clock to brush, its teeth only defined, it was full of gears and battery and was ticking away, he measured the movement of it's minute hand against the sun and found that the sun instead of disappearing at wildly. Different times was setting on a normal schedule. He called me up his voice cracking with excitement bordering on terror. Cease will see. So he said to me, so time is normal in night. Vale. Well. It is Knight Knight fail soon the symbol rise. And we know exactly what time that will happen, our lives have all lurched forward, is that good. Stay tuned, next for exactly what was scheduled to run next at the exact time it was scheduled to do so. And from my mouth to your ears even after all these years, good Knight Knight fail. Good night. Welcome tonight. Vale is a production of night Vale presents. It is written by Joseph Fink, and Jeffrey Craner and produced by disparition the voice of night. Vale is see so Baldwin, the voice of Deb was Meg the winner, the voice of Dana was to seek an Ecole, the voice of Steve was how loveline the voice of Lee. Marvin was T L Thompson. The voice of Maureen was Maureen Johnson, the voice of the faceless old woman was Mara Wilson. The voice of Bassima was Allie, Chan the voice of the number station was Molly Quinn, original music by disparition. All of it can be found at disparition dot info or at disparition dot band camp dot com. This episode's weather is things still left to say they mouth Plum from their upcoming album pity boy. Find out more and preordered the album at Malboum dot com. Comments questions. Email us at info at welcome tonight. Fail dot com or follow us on Twitter at night. Ville radio poor thinks sweetly back on better days. Checkout, welcome tonight, failed dot com. For more information on volumes. Three and four of our illustrated episode book collections out now. Plus info on our very last tour of spy in the desert live show, this summer and fall, today's proverb, technically the first human being and the first human being in space where the same person. Hey, I'm Dylan Merrin, and this is conversations with people who hate me, the show were I call up some of the folks who have said, hateful or negative things about me on the internet. You can listen to Dylan's conversation wherever you love listening to podcasts. Just search conversations with people who hate me, and remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen.

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Whatever Happened to Acid Rain?

Distillations: Science + Culture + History

32:16 min | 3 years ago

Whatever Happened to Acid Rain?

"In the Adirondack mountains of New York. The lakes are so clear they mirror. The forest around them one might think pollution could never taint this mountain paradise. But it has the fish died in this lake. The rain has turned the water acid. Scientists say particles of sulfur are carried by these clouds and win it rains at pours. A mild self uric acid into lakes like this one the experts say power plants discharge most of the silver into the air, and what goes up these smokestacks must come down. Hi, I'm Alexis, Patrick, and I'm Lisa berry Drako, and this is coming to you from the science history institute each episode of distillation takes a deep dive into a moment of science related history. In order to shed some light on the present. Today. We're talking about acid rain in the second installment of three part series about environmental success stories are last episode whatever happened to the ozone hole is available on our website distillation dot org through apple podcast or wherever else. You get your podcasts. So in the early nineteen sixties American scientists discovered a new environmental threat called acid rain. The most people didn't become aware of it. Until almost nineteen eighty Lisa. Do you remember learning about acid rain? Yeah. But I'm not sure I knew it was I think I I thought it had something to do with guns and roses sort of, you know, acid wash jeans November. Same. I think I had to do a school project on it. And I remember reading this book that was like acid rain, and all these terrible things that have with it. But then it was raining outside. And I was fine. And I didn't Mel so I just had no concept of like is this a threat or not, right? We definitely got rained on in the eighties. Yeah. And we survived. So so why didn't we find out about this problem sooner what happened in this nearly two decade long gap? And what led to that ABC evening news clip that we heard just a while ago from December of nineteen seventy eight. If you listen to our show on the ozone hole. You'll remember that we told you you can solve any environmental problem in five easy steps. And of course, we actually learned that it's far more complicated than that. But we're going to follow the steps again. Anyway. So here we go step number one figure out the problem. Step number to get your evidence. Step three inform. The public step four you have to get industry on board and step five implement policies. Acid rain took a long time to resolve in the United States. And there were a lot more roadblocks and slowdowns than in the ozone hole story, but you're going to hear all of it. So let's get started. Chapter one figure out the problem compared to the ozone hole acid rain took a bit longer to get under control in the US like a couple of decades longer. It was first discovered in North America in nineteen sixty three. But it took until nineteen eighty before the media really jumped in and until nineteen ninety until there was any kind of resolution ecologist, gene likens was there the whole time and we met up with him. Where all started in a pristine forest in the mountains of New England. I can't believe that I've been paid for all these years to work here. I mean, come on to nice and sued beautiful. They pay me to work there, gene. Mike into standing by a stream and Hubbard brook. Experimental forest in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. He and his colleagues set up an ecosystem study at Hubbard brook in nineteen sixty three they. Thought of themselves kind of like doctors and the forest as a patient. We had the idea that we could use the chemistry of the water flowing out of this watershed ecosystem much like a physician uses the chemistry of our blood and urine if the physician measures the chemistry of my blood or urine sees it. Something is wrong. He has some idea that I system is functioning properly Lankans and his colleagues started looking at the rain right away. And what they found was startling. This is where we discovered acid rain. A very first sample was roughly one hundred times more city than we thought the rain out to be. We didn't have any idea why it was so acid or were might have come from. Or how long it had been there? We didn't know any of those fundamental answers lichens. Found some of those answers by connecting with another scientists on another continent. Just a handful of years after his discovery lichens cross paths with the scientists in Sweden who had recently discovered. Acid rain in Scandinavia his name Savante. Odin Salunke said I'm going tonight on the overnight train from a sock home too. Oso Norway, and would you like to long, and I said sure why not? And so we took the overnight train together and set up and talked most of the night. Odin told lichens that he thought the pollution in Scandinavia was coming from more industrialized parts of Europe. And this information helped lichens connect some dots. It's like you had to talk to someone else from across the globe to understand what was happening in his own little corner of the world. And this is a bigger theme in science. I think hear again, and again, you have to step outside your framework to see the big picture. Exactly. Like, no one is ever just working on one thing in isolation by themselves. Lots of people are working on the same thing all over the world, and they benefit from talking to each other. Just one of those Sern Dipa this events where something happens. And and helps you understand what's going on much more clearly than you might have. Otherwise, lichens went back to the US and continued monitoring acid rain for years in nineteen seventy-two. He and two colleagues Herbert Bormann. And know each Johnson wrote the first article about the problem, they called it acid rain that paper didn't get nearly as much attention as the next one like in through with Forman in nineteen seventy four eleven years after they first discovered the problem that one was published in the academic journal science entitled acid rain, a serious regional environmental problem by this point likens had moved to upstate New York and had also found acid rain in the finger lakes reaching who will say this is not something unique to Hubbard brook. But as much more regional problem. The paper said that acid rain had been falling in the northeast for twenty years. But the biggest revelation was that tall smokestacks hundreds of miles away in the mid west where to blame emissions from burning coal where a major source of the problem. So the midwest is omitting large quantities of sulfur, nitrogen, oxides, courage to the atmosphere and then deposited here. Whenever it rains and snows so Slyke somebody throwing their garbage out. And then the garbage falling on on your property and you'll like it much D idea the pollution could travel such distances was a new revelation, and the irony was that the culprit those tall smokestacks were originally created as a solution for another pollution problem. Residents have difficulty in breathing. Murkier twenty died four hundred others stricken with respiratory ailments. A locals Inc plan suspected of emitting poison. Mocha's closed down. When of pneumonia is field. In the wake of Donald deadly plague of small Dinara was a small mill town in western Pennsylvania back in nineteen forty. There's inc. Plant, well, like most plants at the time had a short smokestack, and it was pumping out a poisonous combination of carbon monoxide Sofer dioxide and metal dust in nineteen forty eight. The town suffered a small attack that killed twenty people and made seven thousand more sick, the disaster alerted people to the hazards of air pollution and eventually helped trigger the nineteen seventy Clean Air Act. But it also raised the height of smokestacks tall smokestacks helped towns like Dinara, they whisk clouds of pollution out of their backyards. But unfortunately, they just sent them to other people's backyards further away. And what that really did was convert a local problem to a more regional Saparmurat just took the pollution from here. And as a mid higher level. And then it was swept away by the winds on and the atmosphere. Chapter to get evidence by the time, gene likens and Herbert Bormann published that paper in nineteen seventy four they'd been monitoring the issue for more than a decade. So maybe you're wondering what they were doing all that time. I mean, we certainly were the answer is gathering that evidence. I like ends and two other colleagues James Galloway and Bill Keene went to some of the most remote places in the world to try to get a baseline estimate of what the acidity or ph of range should be. They had to go to places without human activity or without any smokestacks tall or short. Just a few of the places. They went were southern Chile remote parts of China and Australia. They travelled for a month by boat to get to an island in the middle of the Indian Ocean called Amsterdam island, and through it all they learned that the default ph of rain is five point one the samples they were measuring back home where at least a hundred times more acidic than that here. Here's how an ABC news clip explained. What these numbers meant a ph of seven would be neutral, the lower the reading the more acidic it is this sample of rain water from the summit reach three point three, which is just about as acidic as grapefruit juice lichens world travels. Really prove that the rain truly was to acidic his research also proved that the pollution that caused acid rain really was coming from industry in the rust belt. You tried to follow isotopic tracers in the emissions from smoke stacks in the midwest. We followed plumes and small airplanes and vehicles on the ground. And we went to a normal links to try to answer these questions ten years in it seemed like the science was pretty clear like it's in his team felt confident in their research. And they published their article seven what they hope for started to come true. The New York Times picked up their story in the scientific community. The US started paying attention to acid rain trays by live forever. Because it was published on the front page of the New York Times. So I had colleagues calling me world saying I'll lichens what is what's going on environmental scientists definitely took notice. But so did plenty of other people many with their own agendas. There were lots of pushback saying, well, no, it's not a three didn't do. It's not us. There is no foot saying is acid rain. I can remember many times when there would be a meeting or I might be giving a talk and someone will denier type with stand up and say. Oh, there's no such thing as acid rain, and I would say well have you ever collected a sample rain and analyzed it? The answer is always. No, I said we'll try it sometime. You might be surprised what you find out. There was this pretty dramatic response. From the coal industries who were thought to be the most serious contributors to the problem. Rachel Rothschild is a historian of environmental science and technology and a former research fellow at the science history institute, she's finishing up a book called poisonous skies acid, rain and the globalization of pollution. She studied the pushback against acid rain science, and one of the things she's uncovered is how quickly the coal industry realized the Lakers research could be a real threat to them. They in fact launched some of the most serious and extensive research efforts on acid rain in the hopes of vindicating themselves on it set up a very interesting confrontation between industry scientists and environmental scientists in the late nineteen seventies and into the nineteen eighties. So we've been here in step two gathering evidence, which even lichens in his team thinking, we were here alone with them. But it turns. Out these steps, which we made up, by the way aren't secret. Other people can jump in and gather evidence to so with acid rain step two is actually multipronged. I you have to gather your evidence, then we for someone else to dispute it or distorted and meanwhile, they're gathering their own evidence. Then you have to dispute their counter evidence when those attacks came they were often aimed right at gene likens, who's bad, really nasty. Ahead of contract. Put out on me was did I tell you this story before so. I'm so sorry. I apologize. Oh my goodness. These thought about the new this alone time, really painful. A coal back policy group tried to carry out what we can only describe as a scientific hit on gene Lankans. Okay. Maybe that's a little extreme. But they did put out a call to discredit his research on acid rain it called them by name, and they offered to pay four hundred thousand dollars to anyone who could do the job. Those the call show that he is wrong. So yeah, it was pretty unsettling in pretty shocking. It wasn't a contract on my life. But it was a contract on my career, which in some ways almost was important as my life. I'm not really. But you know, what? I mean is what I do. It's what I am. It's what I'm all about. I grew up on a small farm in northern Indiana farm boy, and I just thought the world work a little differently. I kept finding out at din thought. All this science road around for like nights on big white horses. And I found out that didn't work that way. Answers could be purchased and they were and all that was greatly disturbing to me. So I think this is a good place to stop because this is a pattern we've seen before. Right. The Anaya day of scientists playing by the rules, but they don't really understand all of them or they see rules that aren't there. They're just in their lab doing their thing. And not really thinking about sort of how to play this larger game. What happens when the research hits the real world? Yeah. The game can change a lot exactly. It's partly that naive sense of playing by the rules. Maybe that helps certain scientists when they get to a crisis point. Because in the end, they do have the science to go back to. We keep persevering. Because of the scientists in because I'm searching for the truth. And because and science we search for the truth, we rarely find it, but we search for the truth. The group behind that contract. Likens us talking about was one of the biggest sources of counter research, a coal trade group called the Edison electric institute, the research arm was called every or the electric power research institute their job was to refute any science that made them look bad, and they were desperate to find some other industry to blame acid rain on. They were hoping that they might find that say logging or other forestry practices, for example, might result in increased acidity in the soil so eh pre scientists conducted a steady in the index to get that alternative evidence alternative facts if you will, but they couldn't find any. So they distorted the evidence I would say they misrepresented the evidence and tried to convey that there was more uncertainty than there actually was and tried to use evidence that simply supported a different kind of proposition, which was that certain types of ecosystems are more susceptible tacit rain that others to save that actually acid rain wasn't the problem at all in the end that scientific hit it never really paid off member. How gene lake and spent eleven years in the woods gathering data with measurements. And it was was bolstered by continuing. High quality measurements. So that when the attacks came we were able to lay our data out there and say, you know, go out and show that it's wrong. Nobody was ever able to do that. Chapter three let the public know gene, likens learned that his data was crucial. But it was not going to speak for itself. So he had to learn how to talk to the public and the naysayers when he wrote that first paper in nineteen seventy-two, he consciously chose the term acid rain because he thought it would get people's attention. And he was right thought and argued long and hard about whether we should use that as a title. And I'm I'm really glad that we did. Because it brought public attention to the issue and in ways, and I'm a scientist. So I'm not supposed to care about that. But in terms of the management of this Thursday environmental issue it helped because. You know, you could walk in the rain, you can sing in the rain. You can dance in the rain. But the rain is acid, you might think about it very differently than you would have otherwise. In the late seventies and early eighties television played a crucial role in getting the American public to know and care about acid rain, Robert Basell worked at NBC news for thirty eight years. He was the chief science correspondent during the nineteen eighties. There was three networks and most of the American watched one of the three every night cable. Newspapers were not going out of business or. Of course, there was no internet. So very different world was enormous impact from those stories. Well, as far as I'm concerned the Lakers dead period. There's no swallows around. Now, the swallows have left almost two weeks early this year. This is one of the earliest stories on acid rain from nineteen eighty. Now, there are no fish, no, really bad. In fact, there is no life visible in woods light. It was killed by a new kind of poison which is expecting many parts of the world. It's called acid rain thirty eight years later Basell still remembers reporting it. Was an important one. Obviously for the reasons. Clip fish were nine trees. Impactful for television of it made it a very easy. You could see what was happening. It wasn't an obscure concept. Everyone was talking about acid rain from TV reporters like Robert Basell, two cartoons to the pope. That's right. The pope in nineteen eighty-five, gene, likens visited Pope John Paul the second who went on to address acid rain in his encyclical. So the media helped, but it also might have heard. There is a new environmental fear alive in the land fear of something called acid, rain or of its present danger. Come from everywhere. This is Jim Lehrer in one thousand nine hundred eighty clip from the macneil Lehrer report the precursor to PBS NewsHour now on the show layer holds what's basically a debate on one side is Douglas costal Jimmy Carter's EPA administrator and on the other is a man named William Poundstone. He's the executive vice president of consolidated coal one of the country's biggest coal companies now throughout the show. Casa lays out well established facts about acid rain and Poundstone disputes them or well more accurately, he evades in distorts them, Mr Casa what has brought you to your present state of alarm. The single thing that happened this year was that scientists from all around the world came to me, and they said in effect there. There's a lot we still do not know about acid rain, but we know enough now to know that we should not be making the problem worse. Mr. Poundstone, what do you think of Mr. CASA's position on acid rain? There is no issue that the rainfall is acid, but we go beyond that point. We start to diverge. In other words, you'll sit you'll you will concede that there is such a thing as as wrestler, the rain, it's a damaging it has serious repercussions. When it I have not said that okay? Do you see what's going on here? Yeah. I think we can all see what's going on here. And there's a great deal of argument evidence that must be heard on this issue. The the English electricity. Board the e pre people as well as the people that is the research arm of the electric power research. Arkansas' they have some twenty two million dollars a year and research activity. And I think in these areas are doing more of the mental. More of the mental. Pan stones goal was to discredit acid rain science. And this interview made it seem like there was no scientific consensus at all. Now, if you've been paying attention to this podcast, you already know that this is what every was all about. But Jim Lehrer takes everything. Both men say at face value seemingly encouraging viewers to do the same. Imagine you're sitting at home watching this on the news. They're the same to you. But they're not the same. We see this kind of false equivalence all the time, especially with environmental issues. Right. So that's why Douglas costal ends up spending a lot of time playing defense during the Larry interview, but he still managed to squeeze in the fact that there was an attainable solution older power plants could be retrofitted with a technological fix to reduce their emissions. I'm just speculating here. But it seems like that interview must have caught them off guard. Like it felt like a big setback. Just. Three weeks later. Douglas, causal said this on the ABC evening news. I have never seen industry that is. Be the first to acknowledge the problem or the extent to their own involvement in it despite all of this. It seemed like things were moving ahead. President Carter signed the acid precipitation act of nineteen eighty which promised to address the problem within ten years things were looking up and then this happened. Present crisis. Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem. Chapter four implement policy or in the case of acid rain intentionally wasted decade, not implementing any policy. It turns out elections have consequences. Reagan had really campaigned much like President Trump dead recently on this idea of deregulating in view environment. And so when he came into office, he very quickly transformed the Environmental Protection Agency, Douglas causal didn't last long Reagan's EPA. Instead, the president brought on one of Eprex top scientists remember them another new EPA pick bans, the use of the term acid rain in short. Reagan was not good for the environment. He did however invite a team of scientists debrief him on the issue at the White House in nineteen Eighty-three. The group was led by gene likens, the end President Reagan said back in his chair, and he looked around the room. And he said, well, gentlemen, it's clear to me that my undergraduate education did not prepare me for such complicated issues. Unquote. I thought. Wow. But any rate we made we made our case, and that was in September of nineteen Eighty-three and in January, the director management budget made the pronouncement that. Nope. We're not going to deal with rains to expensive to do. So we'll study it. Instead, it was it was amazing sprints to go to the White House the debris of the full cabinet. But. Not to see something happen. In nineteen Eighty-six Reagan suffered a backlash in the midterm elections. The results sent a message that he needed a different approach to environmental issues. So he signed the Montreal protocol for the ozone hole and this Afia protocol an international accord aimed at reducing nitrogen oxides to combat acid rain, the environment became a huge campaign issue in the nineteen eighty eight election for seven and a half years. George Bush personally weakened regulations on corporate polluters. And now, suddenly George Bush tells you he's going to be the environmentalist president, do you believe that? On the left was Michael Dukakis who obviously did not win. But Rachel Rothschild says he did make a lasting impact. So Dukakis really placed environment at at the forefront of his political platform draining election, and in many ways forced President Bush to move to the left on that issue and make a decisive break with President Reagan part of the public. Sings -iety was a growing awareness of something called global warming in the summer of nineteen Eighty-eight. There were congressional hearings about the possibility that carbon dioxide was increasing the planet's temperature with the potential for catastrophic results to the environment. If greenhouse gases continue to grow unabated, there is a very high high risk of irreversible and catastrophic impact looming on the horizon. And not I think for the first time for many Americans raised this spectre of large-scale planetary threats from fossil fuels and so- acid rain in comparison almost seems seemed much more solvable. I often wondered if I was just banging my head against the wall for no value. But that didn't turn out to be the case did it because nineteen ninety under amazing. Conditions. A Republican president signed. Nineteen ninety cleaner racked into legislation. What the president is calling for would be the first improvement of the clean air law in twelve years. We've seen enough of this stalemate it's time to clear the air acid rain must be stopped. And that's what we all care about. Because the time for study alone has passed and the time for action is now. Congress both the house in the Senate had voted overwhelmingly, wasn't unanimous. But it was over. Filming in favor of that action, the nineteen ninety clean erect amendments. So being able to be there in nineteen sixty three and makes the discovery for North America about. The current Vasa drain, and then all those tough years in between nineteen ninety our country legislative action was very satisfying. And maybe maybe as unique I don't know. Bush implemented. What we now know as cap and trade it, essentially, let's companies buy and sell the rights to pollute. It was a perfect free market solution for Republican environmentalists president. Now, you might have noticed that we left out the get industry on board step. That's because well, they never really got on board eventually that just had to yield to change in policy cap and trade was a cost effective solution. And it stemmed the worst environmental impacts, the rain at Hubbard brook is eighty percent less acidic now than it was in nineteen sixty three, but they're still areas of the country that are at risk or having fully recovered. So it's a success story. But it's complicated. The lesson of gene likens of the same lesson of Hubbard brook forest like the mountains of New Hampshire. Do not exist in a vacuum. And neither gene likens in a science. Right. Exactly. I mean touched by industry and social concerns and money and power and all of that stuff, by the way. I mean, Jean Lincoln still has not given up the fight no way. And I still don't I'm in my mid eighties. And I'm not giving up yet here. I am talking to you. This deletions is more than a podcast. We're also a multimedia magazine, you can find our videos our blog and our print stories at distillation dot org. You can also follow the science history institute on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. This episode was produced by Mario car and regal Hernandez. Additional sound was recorded by Dave rainy, this show was mixed by James Morrison and our theme music was composed by Zakia participations. I'm Alexis I'm Lisa, thanks for listening.

scientist ABC United States science history institute Hubbard brook Lisa berry Drako President Bush North America New York New Hampshire Odin Salunke Lakers president Jim Lehrer gene President Carter Environmental Protection Agenc New England Herbert Bormann
143 - Pioneer Days

Welcome to Night Vale

24:09 min | 2 years ago

143 - Pioneer Days

"Oh, I know. I know you wanna show your love of night Bill community college. But until now there hasn't been a way to do that while staying warm at the same time, I have a solution to this common problem that I did not in any way just make up. We have new night Vale community college sweatshirts up in our store right now. Head over to welcome tonight. Fill dot com and click on store, we're constantly adding new stuff to the story and getting rid of old stuff. So if you like something get it before it for you is gone for good finally to important bits of live show news. The first we are having a special one off night failed percents live show at the Largo in LA on Saturday, April twenty seventh this unprecedented show will have a rare within the wires live performance and a brand new and dead live show. Yes, the story is continuing. And finally the first ever faceless old woman live show starring Fara Wilson. It's going to be a creepy night. Secondly, you should know. Our latest live show a spy in the desert is out on the road right now if you are in Austin, Houston, Dallas, boulder, Albuquerque, Phoenix Anaheim, San Francisco or Portland, Oregon, come out and say, hi, you don't need to be caught up on the show. You just need to want to have a good time in a theatre tickets for all of those at welcome tonight found dot com slash live. And hey, thanks. We author St. we cannot see we don't know what time it is. We are nearly here. Welcome to night Vale. Pioneer days are upon us. Again, this is of course, just the folksy rebranding that the public utilities department gives to randomly selected days throughout the year when they cut all services without notice the lights, go out, the air conditioners, grow warm, the food spoils the water supply dries up all residents required to dress. In the costumes of early settlers to make the whole thing feel festive and patriotic failure to dress in era, appropriate clothing, such as overalls and soft meet crowns will result in punitive measures, including being called time traveller in a pejorative tone of voice as was traditional punishment for all real time. Travelers back in the early days of night. Vale polls show that these civic holidays are increasingly unpopular, but this time it's going to be different. The utilize department promises. It's going to be way more fun. We. Swear just bear with us. You're so brave. You're all my brave little pioneers, the pamphlets scattered around town assuras after all the pamphlets continue. What is bravery, but endurance what better way to honor the struggles of our ancestors than through personal discomfort and grim acceptance? These are the values our town was founded on aren't they aren't they the pamphlets shout. The pamphlets ride on the ground, the pamphlets inhale sharply and become still in an effort to sway public opinion on pioneer days. The utilities department has unveiled an interpretive boardwalk and historical display set up in an open expensive desert miles from town. The intention of the display is to bring a sense of local pride and -education to the community. And to be a fun family centered activity that can take people's minds off, the panic inducing. Extant questions that come from being so very alone in the dark. And now traffic. You had a dream when you were young in the dream. You woke up on the couch after a nap just in time to see your family driving away, leaving you alone in the house. They'd never done that before you're much too young too small to be left alone. There are no lights on and everything is soft with shadows. You see a Brown paper bag on the table. They must have left. It there for you. Is it food? You don't know how to feed yourself get the bags suddenly lurches and tips over onto its side all by itself, a snake slides out onto the table drops to the floor and slithers rapidly toward you. You try to scream this is the moment to you're supposed to wake up, but it isn't a dream. Is it your whole family really did abandon you you grew up in this house alone. After that, just you and the snake. It wasn't poisonous. But that doesn't mean it was a good companion that came and went without consideration for you at all sunning itself on rocks or squeezing rodents to death whenever it pleased. Sometimes not coming home for days you cleaned up its discarded skins during the molting season. You let it sleep curled next to your body for warmth in the winter months. Even though it could only give back cold indifference in return. But you had no one else. That's just how it was. You still see each other once a year during the holidays out of a sense of duty you follow each other on Facebook. But neither of you check that sight anymore. For you waited to wake up from the stream of your youth to find your family had never left that they were still there with you. You are still waiting to wake from the stream. This has been traffic. I'm getting more details about the pioneer days display and celebration along the interpretive boardwalk visitors will come to several viewing platforms where they will see the bleached bones of select citizens and sisters scattered across the sun, scorched earth, those who won last night's raffle must remit their ancestoral bones by noon in order to be featured in the display further along the walk spectators will be treated to an animatronic reenactment of the battle for the scrublands an event in which several key town, founders bravely fought against the giant benevolent Arthur pods that used to exist in this area as visitors will see the beasts were all slain easily by our intrepid settlers as the animals were unaccustomed to violence of any kind and regarded the human newcomers with only gentle curiosity, they add to die intones. The robotic voice of a mechanical, man. In a waist coat as he stands triumphant among piles of enormous multi jointed legs for they were to visually disconcerting to live, you boobs. There will also be a booth sponsored by the historical society. Displaying repurpose slide film from random strangers family vacations that had been collected at garage sales over the years, accompanied by plaques with made up historical narratives about the pictures. For example, there's one of an elderly woman playing shuffleboard on a senior screws entitled GRA Zelda Fords. The river it tells the tale of win pioneers, I got to the sand wastes, and there was a big scary river running through it and how they had to risk their lives just to reach the land that we now have the privilege to take for granted a lot of plaques have a kind of passive aggressive tone like that actually if you make it to the end of the walk. You will be greeted by Earl Harlan who will demonstrate how to make cherries. Jubilee, a staple dish among the early night fail frontiers. People you feed goose cherries until it can no longer walk or stand on its own URL explains. Then you like the goose on fire until it screams, become whimpers. And when it is finally silent you extinguish, the flames the goose's blackened flesh is filled with terror enzymes that are very good for your skin and is the red liquid pooling around. It is only cherry juice, only, viscous, cherry, juice. He explains as he dishes out samples of the boiling native cuisine directly into people's outstretched ravenous hands. That's not all the fully immersive interactive theater segment is last you'll be blindfolded and placed in the back of a cargo truck hours later, you will step off a wooden plank and be free to enter into the desert to try and find your way back home. Just like the pioneers did it. You don't realize how the boardwalk is designed to be completely disorienting until this moment when you step into the endless desert and look to all horizons and see only identical sagebrush and shopper all and nothingness as if you've entered a mirrored funhouse made only of hot dirt more unpire near days. But I the weather. As you wonder lost in the desert, you I experienced dizzying sense of freedom. You can go wherever you want. The future is yours to shape. The possibilities seem endless says the vast wasteland in front of you. But when you look behind you realize, you can no longer see the, interpretive boardwalk, or any other side of human life that sense of freedom becomes abject despair. You realize that taking risks is only fun when you have a safety net when that risk is choice. Now that you've been swallowed up into the blistering wilderness. You learn that choice has always been in allusion. You must go forward the sun sinks, lower the dark air blurs, the edges you feel a cool breeze. Sweep over the sand, and you are grateful for that your lips bleed. It's nightfall when you come to an old homestead. It has new roof and leans to one side there is no door. But there is the shape of a door the black rectangle of absence, you feel compelled to go in as would anyone confronted by structure with an entrance. But you has Tate you recognize this place. Yes, you saw the slide film display, by the historical society. There was a picture of it taken many years ago. It depicted the same house only if had a roof back that it did not lean to one side and two children. Barely toddlers were standing out front. They had no heads. They had tickets roosting on top of their necks. Instead the accompanying explanation said that it was a double exposure a photographic art form that early night Ville settlers dabbled in to pass the time. There was a whole collection of these photos, displayed, a bathtub filled with blood levitating skull on fire, a baked ham with long luxuries hair. The first night Villers for incredibly adept at trick camera work the historical society insisted nervously when questioned cameras had come to town at least one hundred years before cameras were invented due to the rampant time traveler problem back in those days, they explained we found the pictures in a locked trunk buried near the railroad tracks blurted a younger historical society member who was immediately shushed by the elders and relegated to sell it. Merch you hesitate in the yard until you can no longer ignore the siren song of the wind through the broken bones of this place screaming at you to enter. Inside the only piece of furniture left. Standing is a kitchen table on top sits a sealed jar packed to the brim with pickled eggs your child asks if she can have one your child is with us. She's been writing on your back the whole time, and you forgot all about her that's incredibly arming. How can a parent just forget their own child like that? Yes. Honey, you say trembling with the effort of keeping your voice calm. You can have one you set her down. She scampers across the dusty boards. And she feeds she feeds ravenously she asked for a bedtime story next. It is her bedtime after all at least. She says it is you don't know what time it is. But somehow she senses it and you trust her instincts habits are comforting rituals are important. It's what keeps us grounded. It's what prevents us from shouting. Uncontrollably. And clutching at our is once upon a time. There was a child who looked. Very much like you you begin. No. She interrupts the child looks like you. It doesn't matter. You say because it was actually dog not a child. Be quiet. Now, here's the story adult Ren away from home and had many adventures, and then return to its family, and everyone learns lessons, what kind of adventures she asks unspeakable adventures, you say is this a true story. She asks every story is true. You say she still awake. You point through the roof Los avoid and tell her to count the stars hoping to bore her into unconsciousness. There are no stars. She says you acknowledge that the thick dark air obscures any light that might be in the sky, but we can see them. Anyway, you tell her because we know the stars exist. How do we know she asks go to sleep you say after she's asleep you walk through what's left of the old house in? Wonder if this is your new home? Now, there are many things you think you see standing in doorways or Huddleston corners. Luckily, most of them are not real the only thing, that's truly. There is a nest of baby arthropods bedded down the tattered remains of a blood prairie dress that peer to be orphaned. But they are together intertwining all of their legs and blinking all of their eyes and wriggling as one large familial mass. You know, you don't belong here. This is their home. Now, as it was their home before long before there was ever a house you lift your child sleeping body and enter the desert once more you look behind you and see the silhouette of chicken headed toddlers standing sentinel in the yard. It's not real. It's just a double exposure. As light lifts itself. Above the horizon, something shiny catches your eye on the distance you move towards it. Because it is the only thing to move towards you don't feel hope or motivation only the poll of random focal point that keeps you going forward. Eventually, you come upon an enormous parking lot full of vintage cars, some early models made of skin and mud and some are mid-century coops with thins and hard tops in spinal columns, hundreds of chrome bumpers glare in the blinding, half son of dawn, what's all this? You wonder today's here you hear shrieks an individual a try corn hats ringing, a handbill. What is this use shriek back grabbing them by the lapels? They do not acknowledge you here. He they cry again, but do not elaborate further suddenly the pounding of drums and deafening squawk of brass. Marching band is playing colorful streamers trail through a clear blue sky. It's the city parade. You made it to the end of the pioneer days. Interpretive display and celebration, you accept another liquid handful of scolding cherries. And stumble home with your drowsy young still clinging to your back. As you. Enter your own silent house completely free of all public utilities in celebration of pioneer days. You are overpowered by the scent of rotting kale in the stuffy air, and do you breathe it in deeply? Uber choice you weep. The only source of water is the Buttle on the kitchen floor fed by the constant drip of the defrosting freezer, and do you deal down and drink from it until you are satiated? Things. Don't look as bad as they once did do they the walls aren't closing in on you anymore. They embrace you. The dark screens of your electron devices, no longer reflect your own boredom back to you. They reflect only relief on your haunted face. The inconvenience of no public services pales in comparison to the night, you spent merely surviving in a howling of stable universe. It's all about context. It's all about managing your expectations. That's what the utilities department pamphlet was trying to tell us all the long. And of course, about celebrating the pioneer spirit, something something forefathers, vintage cars and other stuff like that. But now that I think of it we do spend a lot of our days distracting ourselves from physical reality. Maybe we really can't use this time to experience life more solidly in the physical world. The way our ancestors did who needs modern. Conveniences when we have each other, right? Hold your loved ones close tonight. After all you have nothing better to do. I'm coming home. Now. Carlos I know you can't hear me. No one can hear me the powers out here at the station. Just like it is everywhere else. We haven't been broadcasting anything for days now. And even if we had been your radios don't work anyway. But have it's comforting virtual this important. Stay tuned, next for whatever you think you here. Good night. Fail. Good night. Welcome tonight fail is a production of knightdale presents. This episode was written by breathe Williams with Joseph Fink and Jeffrey Craner and produced by disparition, the voice of night Vale see-saw Baldwin original music by disparition, all of it can be found at disparition dot info or at disparition band camp dot com. This episode's weather was vines by super boy. Find out more at Super Bowl Inc dot band, camp dot com. Comments questions Email us at info at welcome tonight, fail dot com or follow us on Twitter at night, Bill radio or watch. Australian reality TV shows because everything is Bitta in an Australian accent. I'm sorry checkout. Welcome tonight, veiled dot com. For more information on this show and our life show, which is currently on the road right now. Come check us out today's proverb the leading cause of death is having a body. Seeking total body awareness trapped in a medical prison. Need a museum audio guide. What happened to cloudy TI? No. Can you take a memo? What is the new society plotting and Oslo within the wires immersive fiction podcast by Janina Mathewson and nightfall co creator Jeffrey Craner each season, we unfold a brand new story strictly via found audio from an alternate reality. Download within the wires at night Bill presents dot com or wherever you get podcasts.

night Vale night Vale LA Bill community college Fara Wilson Oregon disparition night Vale Jeffrey Craner Facebook Vale Twitter utilities department Portland Austin Earl Harlan Bill
Lupulin Brewing is More than Delicious Hops

Beer Guys Radio Craft Beer Podcast

43:26 min | 5 months ago

Lupulin Brewing is More than Delicious Hops

"This episode and every episode of the beer guy's radio show is brought to you by ironmonger. Brewing visit is top room in marietta georgia or online at ironmonger brewing dot com. Opened up a tab. Grab a seat and pour a pint. It's time for the beer. Guy's radio show free beer brewery dedicated to the art science and enjoyment of craft beer. You what's wrong with the be a we got now. Here are your host tim. Dennis and brian hewitt and welcome to the beer. Guys radio show. We are broadcasting. The beer guy's radio studios in marietta georgia and this week. We're talking with loophole in brewing. I'm tim denison with me. As always is my good friend and co host. Brian hewitt hey tim so joining us today. We have matt schiller that co founder of loophole in brewing. And the head of brewing. We are going to talk about hops hops and more hops and we might branch out into as possibly if we get past all the hop talk matt. Thanks for joining us. Thank you guys. Is that. Brian is your hopson. Ipa's is that like your pills. Loggers thing pretty much. Yeah terrible terrible. Yeah there's some other stuff they do other things to do. We've got some here. We're going to talk about them. They've got all kinds of good stuff off. My joke didn't come through. That was in. I got it they do have. You're hilarious glad you recognize that you're doing the loop and world tour So our arts or at least the north american tour. So you're based out of minnesota yet for we're right outside of minneapolis outside explaining. Yep and you've been coming down you. Did you stopped in nashville. Did you get a chance to check out the nashville scene. Any while you were there did not this time. It was just a quick stop but I've been there many times. Okay so yeah cool town. Nice beer their ira southern grist. Yup there's a little blues bar Right off broadway there. That i really liked so yeah. Are you a hot chicken guy at one point my life. Maybe not no Are you beyond that stage. I unfortunately not beyond the hot chicken stage can get away with. You can still dinner i. It's like the old saying goes. I like it but it doesn't like me. I hear that. I have a higher tolerance for heat on the north side of my person than i do on the southern side. Same yeah so have you ran into anything interesting on your travel so far heading down to georgia. I'm mostly just been kind of a business trip so nothing. Nothing too crazy but Going to have a little vacation in florida here After it's all said and done so that that will be nice. Yeah you know. We did have more northern weather the last few days but it warmed up again. You know now see. You made your coming through just in time. I think so. Yeah funny story is. It's actually been warmer immense out of that. It has been you know today. It was mid seventies there. Oh no yeah yes. We hit seventy tops right. I think right at seventy but it's weird because you know done here in the south where always warmer. You know i've been. I've done halloween and shorts. And a t-shirt many times and i'm sitting here looking mid seventy s and that and i see friends in maine post in. It's like oh. I know of the season. And i'm like wait. What seventy six degrees. What are you talking. Yeah we got. Maybe like six or eight inches a couple of weeks ago. Did you have had some this year. Crazy no fun. Seasons are so weird. I don't think i like that at all. I'd prefer like sees sunny most. I'm going to be a little cooler and breezy but yeah warm. Warm sunny cool and breezy and than back to that set. Just how you put good. Yeah i get bright house here. We gone man. It's been pretty good. It's been pretty good eventful Lot of a lot of new breweries opening up man where to even starts so There was the atlanta taki. Soft opening. i we both stopped in your on last week. If you missed last week show please. Check out our podcast. It's diversity and craft beer with atlanta brewing and leaders of the brusco so guess show and we had him on the show and almost all of them were there and we had again a variety of different beers that their collaborations and some of the leaders of the preschool beer so that was a lot of fun. Smoke cigars on the patio. It was good time. It was really enjoyable. Made it over the second self. I've been looking forward to this for a few weeks. I really liked the demanding. Pixie dream beer we got to. They had their number two. That came out so we had that. That's the twelve percent barley wine. Wonderful love that. Get to try. The last remaining bit of the the number one which was a almost fourteen percents russian imperial stout and the untreated on barreled version of the Number two that just was nine percent also pretty nice but you know what after you have it in a barrel with the higher proof and all that richness. It's it's hard to go back to that. We did it wrong. We did it wrong. Started with the berlage and they went back to the non barely so we didn't really do justice to on it that way as for sure. And you know what. I did drink Through some of my cellar beers. I got into it. Old atlanta brewing company grasshopper hypo. Which was okay delicious. it was more delicious. Yeah yeah and an old goose island Coffee stout from two thousand seventeen. Also pretty nice. You know what i'd like the grasshopper more but Enough about me. Tim what did you do what you what man. I got a question for you. Now that we're talking since loop peeling bruin and we'll talk a little bit about the name but i'm guessing you're hop head do you. Are you a stellar beer guide. You keep a beer seller keep called drink fresh kinda guy. No i i keep a seller measure It's not as extravagant as it as it probably once was just having the burri now and access all the time but Yeah i do love Strong belgians barley wines doubts you know kind of the more traditional seller beers I really enjoy well. That's when the pandemic hit you know there's so many beers i've got my cellar. And i think brian same with you that it's like i'm going to save this for an occasion for something special this and that and it's like well the world's end in any house let's hashtag drink your seller. Go get some of these beers. You've been keeping up for day. That'll probably never come so just a tuesday. Let's celebrate tuesday. We made another day. Some of them were disappointing wide. Hang onto others like that grasshopper. I'm like this was fantastic. I don't know how we held up so well so just it. Yeah but you know. Brian answer your question. I'm good man. The only thing you like you said we went to atlanta. We check out elsewhere brewing. Really good nice beer. Argentinian influence based on the owners travels and they did empanadas fan of horrible pies like that that a smoked trout empanada. Brian which i thought was crazy. It was my favorite one just delicious. Really good a dark check lager. That was really nice. There it also. I checked out. Horned owl brewing. I think you you didn't make it out to that. One up in kennesaw georgia so brian. That was three newbury's for us. This week with sean. I don't think we've done in a year early so we checked out but yeah it was a good time in had a good time with it. It sounds like it's time for the beers the weeds. Now it's time for our appears if the week brought to you by the net craft here and barbecue and downtown kennesaw georgia the nest kennesaw dot com. We'll brian as always. We've got just a phenomenal this stuff to try to want to say thank you to the nest for sponsoring this segment. They've got a great event coming up on the nineteenth of november with scofflaw brewing pogs and dogs brian. And for those. That don't know. Brian what his paw g- isn't the the little disks that the kid is not in this known. It's not that we're talking. Passionate orange guava pogs dogs. It's a benefit for mostly matz. Animal rescue lemay have plenty of scofflaw buyers and sellers as well as their flipping bird. Jin there so check and out. If you're in there and you make sure to check it out. Thank you to the next brian. Our beers this week We actually started off with a non beer. We had monks mead. They were kind enough to send us some of their dragons. Nectar the dragon con mi collaboration. They did with their and unfortunately it kind of got hose this year because dragon con went virtual couldn't do it with all the pandemic and stuff but i was a session meet with pasha. Trubisky dragon fruit really tasty stuff. Man light sparkling meads so that was really good. And you probably could guessed this but we're gonna get knee deep into some loophole and beers and we are currently drinking who he. Ip we have their cpap chocolate peanut. Butter is at a porter stout base on porter k. You know the the thin gray line between the two and then we've got the imperial version that we also have one called fashion mullet. Which i think is just absolutely beautiful account there so all kinds of good stuff to get into from lewellen. We're going to do our best to drink. Every one of them bryant. We got a little bit of time here. So what's happening in the news. What's in the news. The beer guys have the scoop time for headlines. So one of the biggest things. Right now is sweetwater. Brewing is being acquired by global cannabis company africa inc which i've never heard of them before now but The acquisition is a three hundred million dollar deal at two hundred two hundred and fifty million in cash fifty million in africa stock and the reason behind. It says a common interest in alignment of their brands. So there's an opportunity to expand sweetwater into canada which they're not there but there's also the strategic acquisition giving africa to the us market for if and when the us legalizes marijuana we all know is probably gonna happen sometime soon. The deal is expected to close by the end of the year. Not shocker here. That they're selling though right. So yeah interesting. Studying realize we water was up for sale. But i mean after. I think about it in reale's not april i. I'm like okay sentence on point so One of the most amusing news of the week is brewed august. Going all willy wonka with a twenty four karat gold punk. Ip can be hiding these golden cans in twelve packs of punk ip throughout november and the announcement came from co founder james on twitter with the promise of more details to follow so if scoring a golden can is not good enough. It also entitles you to a special brewery tour and that's all we know at this point in time. Maybe they're going to give you the very. Yeah we listen to the guy's radio show we do need to take a break but we'll be back very soon with more from lupi umbrella. Have you ever thought about owning your own brewery. But don't know what it takes to get one bill. We're storytime construction. And we build breweries word most experience and hands on contractors when it comes to building new breweries and taverns or expanding existing grease. We offer full buildouts remodeling in additions as low as consulting and construction management. Give us a call at seven. Seven zero seven three three four three four three storytime construction. We build breweries. Craft beer forged a reverence for tradition and new styles that starter. Revolution ironmonger brewing. The brewers at ironmonger ruin pride themselves at being masters of barely edged. Poppy and sour beers. The invite you to their taproom in marietta georgia to taste and see also visit their barrel room for an intimate. Drinking experience with great live entertainment. Keep up to date on all things. Ironmonger by liking them on facebook ironmonger brewing establishing a new standard in craft beer beer guys on facebook twitter and instagram. I didn't enjoy it at all now. Back to the guy's radio show welcome back to guy's radio show remember. All episodes are available on demand. So if you missed the broadcast get the podcast here. Guys radio is available on all popular and unpopular podcasting apps. Now let's get back to loop and brewing matt. We just opened up your eight count here. which kinda cool story behind it can tell us How this beer came to be. Yeah actually a local boxer world-class local boxer fan of the burri. A kind of a beer geek probably self admitted beer geek and then coming in the burri for several years now kind of got to know us we hooked up and started sponsoring him a small part. I mean he's gracious enough to work with asset at the scale that we're at being the boxer that he is and so we'd been doing that for a couple of years now and You know he's getting towards the end of his career. I don't think he's anywhere near done yet. But definitely towards the sunset and just kind of looking ahead and you know kinda wanted to have his signature beer so that's really what this is He's op-ed and really loves the ip as we put out so that's kind of how this came about and we worked on a flavor profile. And yeah that's what we've got here so it's a ten count to be knocked out. Eight count means. He got up just before the end is standing at. You know i'm not super Up with all the deep rules. But there's a standing eight count. I'm not sure exactly how that works with. The methodology is but We we did definitely leave room for another beer in the future Possibly a cow series right point one count black as come back again. He's a huge black. Ipa fan so you know look for some point maybe ten count being a black ip a and and there's a few directly go. Yeah you know. I keep hearing whispers of black as coming back. And i saw now that we're on the unusual. Ip a train here. I the boxers named box. yeah so follow what. He's talking about see what he's drinking. Yeah exactly. I'm sure he's on on tap if he's a berkey hassle. Yeah yeah. He's all over social media. There you go. Yeah but but you mentioned so black. Ips hearing whispers of them coming back. I saw earlier this year and this is of a variety of ip. That i miss a great deal white. Ip i saw that you made one earlier this year. Is that coming back or was that just kind of crazy one off thing. Yeah one off We let All of our team make beers on occasion on our on our innovation. Our original timber will brew house. Oh that's what that was. I don't know. I mean you know. It's so hard to tell right horn. Hazies are pretty much everything in but you know who knows you know. Well that was. Kind of. My is the hazy. Ip the northeast. I pay was kind of the for lack of a better term. The evolution of the white ip kind of next to the next frontier moved away from the the more malia saith the white ip kind of had like the wit the little bit the belgian character kind of moved away from always change. Sir you know the cloudiness the hayes the body but a little bit less of the esters maybe the coriander or whatever so i think the real key is is doing it. Well i think if burris did it really well. In in balance that essar profile correctly with the hops in the bitterness. I think it'd be more popular but it's really easy to go wrong with that type of yeast and can throw different females and stuff that are going to you know kind of conflict with the high profile and the smoothness in that. You want a beer like that. So that's probably what is fighting against a little bit i. I don't think it's very easy style to make at all But definitely can't be done well. is just not that easy to get the balanced where wall yeah fermentation overdoing one direction. Or the other absolutely two flavors that can really really clash Same with black. To some extent you know that that roast and hops certain hop varieties are key in that one. You know simcoe tends to be an easy one simcoe where it's really good with dark roast mall. You know you know. Trying to go to fruity and be like data just clashes too hard. So i if you have. A limited range is what you can do not. I'm looking to celebrate. I'm not trying to hate. But unfortunately not deliver what they need liver. I've had a few where i'm like. This is a well-made beer. I like this. I think it's there's some interesting balance there that i don't fully understand but some people get simcoe is involved in it. Yeah if homebrew it. Try one with all simcoe go a little bit light on the rose us like a d host or something like that. That's not gonna put that big puncher rosta. Don't load it up with a bunch of mall and stuff like that. Keep it as simple as possible. Get some dark color in there with some some de Roasted mall and then go straight hops in co- and and see how that works for you. The the simcoe really works with with dark mall really well. You know it's funny naming the style names sometimes are enough to just change the way people perceive a beer. Like and i. We've talked about this berry two weeks in a row. Now i can't remember The brewery that we talked to chelsea chill brewing company. Oh yeah they do a black guy but he calls it a cascading dark l. Know he goes that direction with it and he said that the law that was his number one beer and he said because the locals like that attachment to the american beer style. You know the cascadia dark l. So that's that does well for him just like and we talked about this before too when founders put out was a dissenter. Ipo it sat on shells. Because no one was ready for india. Lager and i still think if you put out the exact same bearing you called one a drop lager and you called one. Ip l. That drop bloggers going to sell. That appeal is going to get dusty and go bad on. They should bring the center back. They don't have to do a thing of then changed the name. Yeah it was a wonderful beer. I bought the heck out of it. You guys play around with found aims allowed to do you. Do you always go for a style or do you brew and then say our guys. This kind of falls in this will house. Yeah we rarely go for a style other than you know some of our german staff. We you know we've we've done okay with some german lagers at gb f. and once more here with that but little metal dapo bach this year. Yeah you know. Bronze this year we've We took gold and in seventeen for our adored monitor when it comes to as and kind of a lot of the darker beers that are going in popular these days. There really isn't a great style category to fit them. I mean i brought you guys. Four of our core. I as here today and they're all different but they're all ip as the wpa technically put but you know what i mean. There's such a range there. It's so hard to to really nail down that style. I think everybody's struggling with nailing it down and by style. I mean you you know. How are we going to judge it. You know her. We just kinda make what we wanna make. We go after flavor profile and then you know if it lands on a style it lands on a style of it doesn't it doesn't you know and as far as people come in drink the beer. That's not an issue but then you start doing stuff like jbs that makes it a little harder. It really makes it harder. Easier to get a doppler back into the dapo box than it is. An isn't this ip. Isn't that one. What is it hazy and juicy. Isn't that the category what they call it now. Yeah in for us. It's even doubly hard because you know we don't really make our ps to that style. Either you know. They don't fit. Necessarily the juicy hazy. As you know it's understood today You know our beers have some softness to them. Some have a little bit more bitterness to them. You know it just. We like to make them drinkable so to be drinkable. You need a little bit of bitterness. Which of goes a little bit outside of that juicy hazy but it's not bitter enough to be standard ip or clear enough to be standard pa. So you know. That's a tough one. I don't know if we'll ever win award for an ip a At least in that mold crazy a loophole and brewing is winning awards for their loggers but not for their ip as the. That's the craziest thing to me but We actually take a lot of pride in that. Actually because as you guys now lagers are really difficult to well so so for us. If we can make i i feel dortmund. Monitor is probably the most balanced beer style. Unearth so in. If we can do that. While i want a gold medal i feel like we could do anything. And at that point it feels good. There's so much more variety lagers. Most people know something. We've talked about a total assurance. Yeah dapo box and all that absolutely you're listening to the beer guy's radio show. We need to take another break. But we'll be back very soon with more from loophole lynn. Berry you know. We love good. Beer and athletic brewing makes non alcoholic. Beer stands shoulder to shoulder with their boozy brethren with a fraction of the calories and certified organic. It's a great beer to enjoy anytime. Athletics got new bruise. Like serve as a athletic a just in time for summer. Check out the full selection at athletic brewing dot com use code. Bg twenty five for twenty five percent off your first order and us customers get free. Nationwide shipping athletic brewing brew without compromise. Brian and tim the beer guys. If you're like us know launcher dinners complete without a pint of craft beer which is why truck and tap in downtown woodstock. Alfred and duluth are always on our list. Tim why do they call it. Truck and tap will the top part is easy. Brian eighteen of them as for the truck part. That's where it gets interesting truck and tap features your favorite atlanta food trucks to getting a different menu every day truck and tap in downtown woodstock alfa reta and duluth trucking's half dot com. Let them know that the beer guy sent you. Follow the beer guys on facebook twitter and instagram. A big man now back to the beer guy's radio show. Hey welcome back to the radio show. I'm want to give a quick shout out to one of our great radio. Phillies w. r. m. n. fourteen ten. Am in elgin illinois. Catch beer guy's radio on w. r. m. n. every saturday at twelve noon local time us get back to lou and brewing mad. If you're okay with it man. We want to talk about hops. I'm thinking you've probably like hops right. Yeah so loophole in brewing loop eland What is loop ulan. Yeah so. Luke is the glands inside the hop cone that contain like the essential oils basically the where the bitterness the flavor the aroma that you get in the beer. That's where it comes from actually like our our logo if if you see original logo and most of them now on our cans or just kind of open but original logo with the yellow inside. It is exactly that it's it's a hop cone cut in half basically you know the the art version of that so that has hurricanes themselves. Come from that deluca inside those glands right. Yeah yup okay. I mean you get something. Obviously from some of the leaf material devoid of of get your flavors. Yeah right yeah but but definitely what we're really going after is his lupine. When we're making is one of the most enjoyable things i did. I towards sierra nevada in mills river north carolina toward there and we went into the hop room. They've got it's not the it's taurus top room. But they've got bins with several different kind of hops in there and i think they had one called called. Frank zappa. maybe do you know if that's hop strain. Does that sound right. Might be never heard of that. I'm intrigued but they're big enough. They might have their own. Yeah you get to dig in and get a big old fistful of these in. Breathe them in that. And just the i mean when you smell them was obvious where the name came from. Very very dank. Hot down that sticky sticky resonance and all that on there. And it's just a as a beer nerd. It's it's a fun thing to do to go in there and bury your face in a big been fulla hops. There so stuff. I do enjoy that after. I've done brewery tours. Where i've done just that. I think any anybody who ever does a a burrito or if they have the bins open. I i know back in the days. In portland oregon. That was a big thing. They always will take you to the hop room. They always have you dig your hands in you get probably rub it on your hands man. That is so nice. Don't get it in your eyes. What's that. I don't get it in your eyes what i'd never tried that ever played with my eyes afterwards but I could see that. Oh yeah yeah yeah. You won't do that one again. Well that's the kind of things you don't mean to do it. The things you do and then you realize that you've done it because the consequences like peppers peppers or something. I wrote my hands and wayne hops and tabasco and then my eyes. I don't understand why they're open your eyes up instinct my contact. Yeah it's a good idea. That's a good idea. So do you guys use a loophole in powder in your bruise. Y'all whole cone or how. How do you rocket loopy. Yeah we actually. We use quite a bit of that You know we like to call it hop hash rights on. We're actually one of the first burris to get on that train. When it first came out obviously with the when they released it or announced it. I immediately reached out to our wrap. And we gotta we actually made a beer called straight hash homey We make that every year in april around four twenty and we have a party and everything at that debris so that one's gotta find that's all hop hash you know. I was get yelled at by rap hop hashes floor sweepings. This is a good quality. Yeah i get it but it's more fun to say i say hop hash was originally. It was all the stuff sticking to the equipment as processing hops right. Yeah they realize man. This is all the good stuff. Yeah scrape this up. Let's sweep the foreign put a beer with the better way of cleaning up and packaging it. Shout the chief right. I i understand. It's quality product. I still wanna call it. How pash so i never remember. What's the difference between the loophole and powder and like the krause the same. It's the same kreil. That's a name for us. Yeah they call it cry. Whatever their process proprietary process is for it. But that's essentially what i call hop hash so in the ranking if your favorite form of hops to us how do they lineup. You've got the crime or the powder up on top may be either the pellets of the wet hops. After i mean you know they all have their own merits on The the crowd you know does things to the beer that are different than traditional t ninety pellets. Says we call them now. The kreil they're doing powder and pellet form also now it's easier for us to handle it and process it but definitely a traditional palette. You know it's got some of the the green matter. The leaf material from the whole cone hops We used exclusively pallets cry. Oh we just don't have the equipment to easily handle ho cone hops. We like ho- hops. we it's just. It's just a whole lot. More equipped balki ballots soaks up a lot of liquid. You have to have special ways to deal with it inside the barista if you're committed to whole cone hops. You have to have the equipment to do it now which is an all that common nowadays better ways to do it right you know. I don't even know if it's better or not as just different. It's easier for us to handle Pellet in in kreil hops or hash it just kind of breaks up even in. You know when you're given all they have to give they they go down the drain easy and yeah just easy for us to handle sure. Absolutely now we have a lot of fun. Seeing the experimental hops coming out and see and breweries play around with these do different. Ip as with some of the experimental that are there any new hops. Coming through the pipeline. Or maybe recently released your that. You're having fun with right now. Well sabroto isn't that super new anymore but We're drinking that here with the with the account I really liked that hop. It's it's a little bit of a polarizing hop. It's got kind of a woody coconut kinda tropical fruit thing to it that some people are more sensitive than others. That one's fawn lotus is another one. That's that's come out It was a rebrand. It used to be called denali. It's called sultana. That when i'm a huge fan of apple character and that this experimental one i forget all the descriptors i think all the number sees their right has rose petals as part of it. But other things to have you played around with that and which one is that. Oh boy i don't re- i i really really wish i probably have. I just couldn't play against. Woody rose petals and has some other interesting character to it anyway. Very recent we've been playing around. I forget the exact number. It's an hp see like you said. I might want to say there's one it's it's like a sister of sabroto in in an okie bourbon barrel character to it. Oh it's we use that in in the whirlpool on our latter. Alice imperial stout and If you have the straight version now most times when we put it out we you know we doctored up with you know chocolate and all the fun stuff but but occasionally we do put that out straight version and you can really pick that up. Had a lotta fun pouring that at gb off last year the straight version and people could not believe it wasn't barrel aged in it wasn't at all it was just acc four seventy two. Does that sounds sound. I had a local version of that. And he came across extremely woody. Woody would eight like bourbon. Barrel aged wildly version wildly bruin. I think didn't hop stick stick's very woody version of it so in terms of like blending hops together. I'm always intrigued by this. We talked about some cobaine great for like black as but if your what is your favourite combination of hops together in an ip or a pale the perfect ip yes albouy. That's really tough because it changes choice right. Yeah you know it changes a lot. You know it's really right now. It's really hard to go wrong with. Sicher mosaic is a good base. It does well just those two on. its own. you know back. In the day it was cascade centennial and it was simple. amarillo seem camarillo columbus. Now galaxy era yeah galaxy galaxy never really stood out well on its own as much but You know ciccio mosaic is still that probably the the one going right now. I got a feeling sabroto. Sultana is gonna gonna make its way in that mix. I'd like to see the timeline of that. Because it does sound like there are flavors of the moments in how you could really track that over a period of time about nineteen eighty five to two thousand cascades. Ten two thousand to two thousand ten simcoe amarillo in or maybe that last until twenty two. Alvin institure mosaic. Basically i can remember simcoe me. That's all you heard house. That was the one everybody wanted that other beer. And how many ib us can you get. That was the goal to not that long ago. So yeah what is your highest. Ib uber. i questioned even tell you probably strictly illegal. It's our triple. Pa go bring out the big guns. You're listening to bear guy's radio show. We're gonna take another break here and we'll be back very soon with more from loopy lynn. Berry if you love beer barbecue and football than the nest and kennesaw georgia is the place to get your fix. Featuring forty eight taps including unique and wear craft beers wine and more plus some of the best barbecue. The spacious patio is a great place to catch the games. This fall where you can cheer on your team while you enjoy some wings at don't forget about the delicious pork and chicken and my personal favorite. The nachos remember for the best and craft beer and barbecue. Make your home at the nest and kennesaw. Georgia follow the beer guys on facebook twitter and instagram. I believe you might now back to the beer. Guy's radio show welcome back to bear guys radio. Show if you enjoy the show. Please consider supporting us on patron just got patriot. Dot com slash. Beer guys patrons. Get cool perks. Like beer guy. Swag and commercial free episodes. Now let's get back to loop pian brewing matt. We're gonna shift here we're going to. We're going to let the sunset on lighter beers. That's going to get a little dark in here now because we've just cracked into your see. Pb some chocolate peanut butter and supporter as we mentioned a little bit earlier. So with a name. Like loop ulan brewing. I bet people automatically assume and i mentioned to you that when i saw your october fest bear on the shelf. I'm like oh you know. 'cause luke bruin i i figured you know. It's all about the hoppy beers but we have drank a cb. Were just getting into the imperial see pb. You guys enjoy your dark bears as well correct. We enjoy all ears You know if you're not near the burri outside of minneapolis you. You probably don't see a lot of it because not a lot of it gets out to the market but if you come to one of our tap room's we've got the one outside of minneapolis then one in sioux falls. Also you know. We just installed a bunch more taps in in taproom to you know we'll have over thirty beers on tap in any given time We've actually got to Gb f medals in german lagers. Dark matter in dapo black We've got a full sour program. We've got a clean barrel program stuff like that barley wines. Have you considered changing your name to not just lose. No okay multi. Lynn brune time called definitely not say that was kind of fun One of our suppliers bagged a maltin. I was mashing that beer in. I'm looking at the color of the wharton. It's like that's read. That's definitely that's definitely not really. Yeah so we went with it. He doesn't limits boob lemonade. Honestly a red ale red. Ip in that vein. I really liked though seven. I mean honestly. That's more than lemonade. That's like a hard lemonade. He'll get lemons and made harlem of so. That's that's a good thing. I thought the beer came out. Really well i. I knew i made a lot of red. Ip as home brewing. So i knew exactly what to do with the war. As soon as i saw it and tasted it and change the hops up but The name just definitely not who. Who is our flagship. You know just didn't go over that offer you like now. Now you know beer geeks man if it's not exactly the same as the last batch. They're they're going to let you know. Yeah the it'll be talked about online. This is story One of the big popular northeast. ip trillium retrea house or one of those but when they started they had some created a facebook fan community for them and they were active in it. And then it started. Do you guys think dispatches different than that batch and it just kind of the downward spiral yeah to the point. One of the owners of the berry was involved in the group. And he's like. This is just too much negativity i got. I gotta step out of this. You know so. It's like you're working with organic products and you do. Yeah and again. We've seen this many times but props to budweiser for being able to be consistent as they can according it what they don't use real ingredients do they couric they just got these huge pellets. That at a point where it's probably very similar to that is a lot of automation going on there. I don't think they actually use any real hops. I think it's act. I'm liquids and and all that but you know you do ever real. I read off the beach right while. We're talking about the darker beers. I was intrigued by for multiple reasons. Coffee shop assault part of the reason. I was intrigued by it. Involves coffee and coffee. The green beans were actually aged in bourbon barrels. Which is something. I've tried from coffee. But i've never had a beer and that's really intriguing to me. How did you even come up with that idea. I don't even remember exactly but yeah so the name you know came off of Elected just peruse urban dictionary on occasion to that coming up with names really hard. There's a lot of reason. There's a lot of really creative burris. That have a lot of really creative name. So just to get that ad you gotta you gotta dig real deep into the interwebs to get that edge but Stumbled on this name for a vespa scooter as a coffee shop assault vehicle you know hipster neighborhoods with the hipster coffee shops you know riding your scooter always scooters parked out in front of these coffee shops. So that's where the name comes from in the label Labels is great. We have unbelievable in house. Artists are marcus paulsson. Actually one That label actually went to crush Marketing awards right. Yeah she yeah and it's actually. There's some pretty serious judges Ralph steadman if if you know he was one of the main. Final judges made the call world-renowned judge or artists. I mean. sorry not clearly a true. Yes yes yeah in in He's a marcus. are artists. actually one best bjarte in in minnesota and our local market and that awards actually voted on by our peers in the industry. So take a lot of pride in that. He does some ridiculous. Every can is a masterpiece. It's unbelievable and that's becoming more and more important when you're sending stuff out to market because the shells are crowded now man you may not notice that yeah but You know you gotta go. I got china here cooler at all our beer not. It's not that crowded at all. now. I mean we're looking at these here. We've got an something. I i don't know if i've ever seen a black beer can before i mean the can itself is black who did the The sublime collaboration the was that like a need us. I don't know if it was lag. Needs that in a black cat. It was that blackadder. But anyhow i got the eight count is black and gold. Here very cool looking stuff. The imperial version of c. p. b. is really good there is this lack can black-clad really is is very striking. The coffee shop assault vehicle likely likely hidden that back to the coffee. We we actually use a local. A local coffee roaster paradise. Roasters out of minneapolis Local to us up there and We source the green coffee beans from them and We get a fresh Bourbon barrel and we dump the bag into their and you'll only got leave him in there A week or two and in those green coffee beans really absorb that that bourbon and oak kind of flavor and aroma and then we we empty mites. Really fun getting them out of the barrel. We'll get it out of the barrel and we take it over to them and they it for us Pretty dark roast on that. And then we we have a special infusion vessel that we use to infuse different things whether it's cacao nibs or coffee. Or what have you so. So we make the beer reformatted out. And then we we cycled the beer through this this vessel that contains it and that's how we ended the coffee flavor to it but really gets a cool bourbon barrel character without ever having sat in a bourbon barrel. Yeah yeah use like an industrial strength. Randall basically almost rocket almost exactly what it is. Yeah it's it's a big pressure vessel with a screen and it essentially and we use it for french. Press on kind of their plunge it down. We have a lot of fun and we always have more coffee beans left than we put in the beer. You know 'cause we'll we'll put a whole bag or two in in this barrel sounds nice. They begged some up and we sell it and then they sell some on their website. So yeah look for that. And maybe late december early january If you don't the beer you can order the coffee from. It's amazing in the morning drinking coffee that tastes like black. Bourbon whiskey there. Oh totally i. It's really actually quite. I'm sold off one of your buddies coffee companies. That he had elaine coffers and i got it and i'll admit i i'm like man. Do i want whiskey and my morning coffee and that not that. I'm opposed to coffee and whiskey. But it's just sublime. Yeah it's just really nice to get it because it's not overpowering. Barely the burgundy note. I'm like actually. This is really really good in a cup of coffee. So he also experimented with fermenting beans and it was. It was interesting. You could get some of the the notes of it. I'm still waiting to see somebody who has successfully firms had coffee beans and then Turn that into a cup of coffee. I'm willing to try. But please try it and see if you can come up with something. Because i want to try it. I wanna drink it gonna do it myself so make it make it make it happen right. Yes absolutely well matt. We've just got literally like a minute left here so anything else. People need to know about. Loopy lindbergh your beers. You're sour program. You mentioned you've got a pretty good sour to yes. We do some very traditional would age sours We branded it a little differently. Just loopy lynn being hap- so we call that that lines Script lines okay So like brand in. Its own yeah. It's a brand you know it's still aas but it's kind of an shoot we like to say. Are we tell a story where their beer in. You couldn't really tell the story of that kind of beer with the name like fluke. Eli table yet. I mean so yeah. That's a lot of fun. we're growing that. You should see more of that out on the market in the next year so most of its in house just based on quantity but we put in some food irs recently so quantity should go up quite a bit here. We'll if people want to find out what is going on the latest news from loop ulan bahrain. What is the best way to do that. facebook instagram. Our website. we have a new website launch in a few weeks here but yeah facebook instagram. The usual channels also are the best way. Well matt thank you so much for joining us. We enjoyed it. Thank you thanks for having me. Thank you that absolutely well that about wraps it up for this episode of the beer guy's radio show join us next week as we talk with weld works brewing where radio on facebook twitter and instagram. Thanks for tuning in. have a great week. And don't forget to drink local cheers

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ITT Sound Off: Reimagining Our Country

In The Thick

20:39 min | 4 months ago

ITT Sound Off: Reimagining Our Country

"This election season has taken such a toll on my skin. That's why i've been using. Ronnie an indian inspired skin care brand that's modernizing incident in rituals passed down for centuries like third glow. activating Turmeric honey name of ronnie make skin ca easy and all the products are quilty free so go to ronnie dot com. That's eight the r. I dot com and use code thick twenty at checkout for twenty percent off your first order of ronnie never does discounts to this special in the thick listeners. Go check them out and with the holidays coming up gift us that to someone. You love of ronnie definitely gets the seal of approval. It's helped my skin glow. And i hope it will help your to dear listener. Welcome to in the thick and this is gov all right so our first topic. you know. we're not gonna be able to talk about this much longer. Which is a fabulous fabulous thing. Oh boy but we are going to talk about what's happening in terms of white house. Politics for a moment is getting interesting. Yes on tuesday attorney. General william bar finally went against donald trump's lies about the election and told the associated press that there was in fact in no evidence of widespread fraud. In other words. He was telling the truth. Thank you william bar for doing that. Time too far. He's feeling a little like he doesn't owe anything to trump right now. This point because he's on the outs and so he's getting a little Anyway when he did that there was backlash from right wing media and also from trump who is still claiming fraud. One month after the election and who on wednesday night posted a forty six minute speech filled with more lies. It's been reported that donald trump is also considering all these pardons for his children. Don jr. eric ivanka his son-in-law jared kushner as well as his lawyer rudy giuliani. None of them have been charged with any crime. They would have to put on paper. What are the crimes that they have allegedly or not committed in order for there to be a part in as far as i understand so there's a lot of shall we say political chaos that a lot of people are still addicted to but i'm over it. You're over but it's like roman times you know it's like a bad. Pbs like caligula show anyway meanwhile while that is happening and give it up for billy bar finally took him a couple of years but he finally stated facts meanwhile while this is all happening joe biden is forced to stay patient through the chaos and continue with his transition and while i do think this whole trump side show is going to continue even after he leaves office. Maria and i think he already has Whether the big cable news networks are gonna cover him. he'll have the right wing covering him no matter there's this whole question about the future of politics after trump right so we talked about how much black lives matter and the movement for racial justice this year has impacted right the election but then on wednesday former president barack obama and also bestselling author now please suggested movements like de-fund the police are counterproductive. I guess you can use a snappy slogan like defunding police but you know you lost a big audience the minute you say it which makes it a lot less likely that you're actually going to get the changes you want done but if you instead say let's reform the police department. So that everybody is being treated fairly. The divert young people from getting into crime. And if there's a homeless guy can maybe we send a mental health worker there instead of an armed unit that could end up resulting in a tragedy suddenly a whole bunch of folks who might not otherwise. Listen to you are listening to you. So the key is deciding. Do you want to actually get something done. Do you want to feel good among the people yard agree with and if so but here's the thing the way he it. Why did you have to be so dismissive of a move because it comes across as dismissive. Why couldn't you just be a little bit more respectful. I guess why couldn't knee of picked up the phone and had a conversation with angela davis. Okay who in many ways is his political godmother all of ours political godmother's because of her lung jetty and resistance and survival throughout all of this and what. Angela davis says is they weren't aware of all of the problems in the judicial system of the way in which it has been historically used and continues to be used as a weapon of oppression against black people. They wouldn't be so defensive about the whole thing. How can you say that This demonstrate that there is Justice in the american coors when we know that the jails prisons across the country are filled the brand with black and brown people. We know that on death row right now. The vast majority of the prisoners who are going to be executed are people of color. We know that when a black person is picked up from community and brought to jail he's going to have to depend on a public defender because more than likely he won't be able to hire a good lawyer and this public defender. What is he going to do. he's going to tell him to cop a plea even though he knows. And many cases that his client is just as innocent precedes. And so i'm going to try to do now. Is to build the very same kind of movement that was built around me and the kind of movement that liberated from prison and ordered to free more brothers and sisters. Because that's that's a real significance of this victory and people have been saying that for decades and it is getting not any better. It's getting worse in the sense that you know george. Floyd was murdered in front of everyone watching. They have no shame. And you know there's a whole other level. This is where. I get really pissed off at barack obama because you know this is not a police. Misconduct issue what happened. To george floyd so many others are extra judicial murders with the context of the police and barack obama needs to be able to differentiate. Now i understand that people get freaked out when people hear defunding. Police or abolish abolish is but you know what radical grassroots activists have always been at the forefront of movements that end up leading to deep change. I mean do you know all the protesters who were talking about. Stop and frisk in new york city for decades and so you have to be radical. I understand what he's trying to say but at the same time my essential feeling is that the department of homeland security needs to be deconstructed reconstructed. But you know one of the things just wanted to share about this topic. What former in. The guest and congressman elect jamaal bowman. He was actually on cnn. This week talking about defunding the police. And this is how he put it defunding. The police does not mean. Abolish the police. It means dramatic reduction in the number of police in our poor communities particularly poor black and brown communities historically when our communities have needed jobs. They didn't bring us jobs. They brought us police and they created a system of mass incarceration and we live in a country. Where if you're black or brown you're more likely to be killed by police and more likely to be incarcerated and more likely to not afford bail so we're focusing on this slogan defunding police but where are the resources to bring jobs into our communities where the resources to fully fund our public schools where the resources to deal with the issue of housing food insecurity. We are not talking about any of that. What worried about a slogan and lastly only five percent of police work is focused on violent crimes rape homicide aggravated assault. The other ninety five percent can be handled by other agencies mental health institutions domestic violence professionals etc. So we've been doing policing all wrong for decades in some cities. Forty percent of the budget goes toward police. Saying and police are terrorizing black and brown communities to evans's clear across the country. So we have to do something different. And not allow republicans to flip of talking points on his head and make us respond to it. This is about re imagining our country and build him back better in a way to uplift black communities and not leave them oppressed mic drop. And you know he just walked off the set probably remember jamaal bowman eyesight him now all the time. Because he said this solutions that we're proposing are not radical. What was radical is the fascist actions that created this situation in the first place. I want to end by quoting naomi. Simmons thorne over on twitter who said If being honest de-fund the police is the version. Because what we really said was abolish. Oh and there we go. I just feel like we're at a point in twenty twenty one year where we should be able to have thoughtful conversations about this. I agree with jamal. We should not let it be hijacked. We should be patient and have deep conversations about an issue that is leading to the deaths of many many many unarmed people. Most of them. Hello black and brown. That's why you should care. Yeah all right moving on to our second topic so we want to turn to. What's happening in mexico. So corona virus cases have been on the rise and there have been over a hundred eight thousand deaths and that's the fourth highest total in the world. The us is i. President under manuel lopez over other word. I'm lou. He's continued to downplay the seriousness of the pandemic and has continued to call masks. Non essential but according to the cdc mexico is currently placed at a level four brisk which is the highest risk category for covid nineteen due to the massive spread there and so the cdc has advised against all travel to mexico on thursday low. Who has yet to recognize. That's right and congratulate president. Elect joe biden. And that's associated press reported that on thursday. Okay let that is a fact He also said on thursday that he has to thank president trump for helping mexico. Get the vaccine night porter the us okay so the leftist quote unquote mexican president. I don't know. I mean we have to really like what does that term mean anyway. Not only that. But then also this week the fabulous site politico which is one of my favorite sites and latin america. The obtained documents showing that mexico's national immigration institute. Which is the i n. D. didn't report cases of the coronavirus migrant detention centers and the documents. Show that from june to october. At least fifty to detain migrants tested positive for covid nineteen and this was out of only seventy eight tenths. The only did seventy eight test okay. Even though thousands of migrants were detained facilities during the same period and all while the virus was you know on controlling and was spreading so we know that the number of migrants in detention mexico is a direct consequence right of the united states immigration policy. That is just a fact. So this is all connected. We're seeing the same continued. Dehumanisation of detain migrants in the united states to so on thursday the intercept and in these times magazine published a report about the etewa county detention center in alabama. Where detainees said. They were punished place in solitary confinement for even requesting covid nineteen tests. So i threw a lot your way. Maria yeah well. It's the same thing that's happening around the world. The people who are poor are the ones who have to keep on working. They're the ones who are living double tripled up bright. They have to be out on the streets there in part of the informal economy. The other thing is is that obesity is a huge issue in mexico. It's the number one health problem because of what because of the united states. You mean the fast food all the processed fast. Yeah yeah yeah but what about this whole like what planet is. I'm living on right now. What's he do what you like. What the fuck how. Much time i spend thinking about this. I'm deeply upset about this. Angered and that's why when people say he's from the left. I'm like We have to re categorize what we say is the left. I don't know what i'm lows. Endgame is in terms of politics that he's playing with trump. I mean is going to become like a trumpy supporter wins. Trump has left and he's a univision show with trump and spanish on televisa trump is going to turn his back on biden and say hamas biden. I'm like what what is the endgame. I don't understand. I don't get it. I don't get it and the truth is is that mexico. This is so heartbreaking. Well you know. We've been reporting about this for latino. Usa mexico has become the wall and people are like. What do you mean. What do i mean is that when i was a little girl traveling through mexico. I don't remember seen one immigration checkpoint. Not even when. I was a little girl like i'm saying you know twenty years ago now. There are immigration checkpoints throughout all of mexico it has become a country that will jail detained immigrants and refugees but the language hulu as you know go this is so manipulative is like no no no that name we do not detain list. Got domino's we rescue them. No we don't incarcerate them. We give them shelter like what then. This very marked rise. Julio of a very anti immigrant anti refugee nationalist for mexicans is just really really terrifying. Which again leads us to what happens. Then in a detention facility in alabama right it's the dehumanisation of immigrants and refugees which brings us to our final topic. We're going to talk a little bit about what's happening with covid right here in our own country where the number of deaths is scary. I'm getting really freaked out about the number of people who i know around me who are testing positive this morning at my gym class out there in the park somebody died tested positive last week. Boyfriend of a friend. Seventy years old dead just like that. So it's real an the united states more than twenty eight hundred cove in nineteen deaths were reported on wednesday alone and officials have predicted daily. Totals like this are going to continue over the next three months. President elect joe. Biden's transition team did formerly meet with dr fauci for the first time on thursday but in is expected to announce his health team as soon as next week. You mentioned biden in both biden and kamala harris. Were on cnn on thursday. Night with jake tapper. Michael nation is in the first day i'm inaugurated to say i'm gonna ask the public for one hundred days to mask this one hundred days to mask not forever one hundred days and i think we'll see a significant reduction if that occurs with vaccinations and masking to drive down the numbers considerably. Like that's going to happen but we need to change the culture and the thinking and basically take this seriously. So it's kind of weird because you know that actual intelligence is coming right right in fifty minutes feeling. There's but what's going to happen from now until january twentieth when we have you know the holidays winter people are gonna be indoors. Yes we really have to be on the lookout. I want to quote a tweet from some. Yeah carla mongla. She said twenty. Eight hundred and four americans died of covid. The most debts ever recorded in a single day which is just like totally shit. Then she continues. I know it's hard to process these evergreen numbers but for comparison for the september eleventh attacks. Two thousand nine hundred seventy seven people were killed. We're hitting that number every day and a half. Yeah basically. How many reports did you fall on. Cnn about nine eleven. You know. I used to say that nine eleven was the story that changed my life as journalist that now coupled with this pandemic but the thought of the dedication and care that cnn gave just one correspondent that's about the only story that i reported on for an entire year right. I remember seeing you. People who died on september eleventh profiles of them following up what were their last words. What was their last communication. What did they do in life. What were their dreams you know. How are we going to remember them. The tears and we are losing that basically daily daily all right. Well listen before we end. This is emotional. Speaking about a life that was lost. We just wanna take a moment to honor. Miguel eye-grabbing who is a puerto rican poet writer and the co founder of the new year rican poets cafe in the lower east side. He sadly passed away this week. He inspired so many generations and poets. And he's going to be remembered with love forever. i have so many great memories of hanging with mega. When latino rebels started nine years ago and there was just as solid crew of young voters. Who just i love him. One of the greatest. We're going to have to make a statue of for me gallagher. One of the greatest. It is a moment that everyone in this country should take a moment and just look up. You know new rican poets not just the cafe but the movement the new rican poets movement you know we have now lost. The allegation the founders. It's so sad. I also want to say miguel made it almost two eighty and he was one of the first two revealed. He was hiv positive. Yeah this was at a time when people were not revealing that and he has been a public in-fighting it. He's a new york. Puerto rican curmudgeonly poet of loved life. Who i'm just so honored that i was able to be a friend of his. Hang out with him a little bit but please people learn about the new year rican poets. What they brought they are part of our treasures and nia lean. But i sent day forever. Ever never weapon. In the ain't i'm gallo remembers and go to apple podcasts to rate and review us because it really helps also you can listen to in the thick on pandora spotify. When you're like just shuffling around you can listen to us anywhere. Tickets out on the web at org. Follow us on twitter and instagram. At in the big show like us on facebook friends to listen. And we're really serious about that because that's how we grow our audience. Yup is produced by nicole. Rothwell noor saudi and harsono hot though with editorial support erica. Dill day our audio engineering team. Is stephanie lebow. Julia caruso leah shot. At least you buy eat tube and gabriela buyers are digital not thanks to our benefits for reporting me the music you heard it's courtesy of not not kept in z k records. dear listeners. Stay safe we love you buy. They said everybody. All righty okay. We're going to do a show now. Yeah let's do it. It's friday. I'm so ready for the weekend okay. There we go energy. The opinions expressed by the guests. And contributors in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of fujairah media or its employees.

mexico ronnie jamaal bowman Angela davis donald trump General william bar william bar One month forty six minute Don jr eric ivanka jared kushner barack obama billy bar joe biden george floyd the associated press united states ninety five percent Forty percent
30. Getting High Without Drugs with Dr. David Luke

The Drug Science Podcast

40:38 min | 6 months ago

30. Getting High Without Drugs with Dr. David Luke

"At its very core drug science must remain independent. This means we don't accept sponsorships. It's with the support of the drug science Community. We're able to do this with the podcast in the first place. If you're able to become a drug science Community member and support the show, you two will be supporting the dissemination of evidence-based drug policies without you. None of this would be possible. For anybody interested. There's a link in the show notes. Thank you. Hello and welcome to the brook science podcast with me David Knight. Here we're bringing together experts and activists for a rational honest and informed conversation about drugs a Fascinate Productions podcast for drugs signs off drugs. Hello, I'm David nuts and welcome to another drug science podcast today. We have David Luke who's a senior lecturer in Psychology at the University of Greenwich? And he's one of the pioneers of psychedelic research in the UK. Welcome David. Thank you very much. David. Nice to be here. It's good to have you on board. And I mean, it's interesting that you are a lecturer in Psychology. But your interest in life is that exit has ever been any conflict between your your department and you in terms of what you do? No, not especially I always thought there might be some, you know frowning going on here and there but Iraq never really witnessed any any resistance to it. You know, when I finally kind of came out of the closet by my my research interests, I got a lot of kind of curious notes in the door of people who are kind of you know, oh, that's really interesting. So I think secretly people are quite interested in this research area. Well, yeah, I think we saw the found the same, you know, when we started doing our clinical work, you know, people weren't overtly positive, but you know, they behind the scenes p Say Well done, you know keep it up. You know, it didn't want to put their head above the parapet. So exactly so when did you start getting an interest in you? Tell us a bit about your background and how how your your career developed? Sure. I mean I start off. I mean I was always interested in in kind of Altered States from a young age and actually went to study psychology because of my interest but it was kind of woefully disappointed with a little kind of Attraction there was given in Psychology to these different states of Consciousness and ran screaming from the academy actually and they asked me back to teach and I ended up going into a PhD in a kind of exploring transpersonal experiences because of that time that was a kind of closest field you could go into I think and explore these these states of Consciousness. I felt rather than psychopharmacology. So what does that mean? I mean this concept of transpersonal that's a word that many of our listeners will understand. So I mean in its basic form, it just means those experiences which take off. Transpersonal beyond your personal ego identity so that you feel you have a deeper connection with something other maybe another person or another species or feeling of love and life will interconnectedness with the universe or just something beyond your own every day you go sense if you like and this is a construct is is it recent in terms of people talking but it was oh well in terms of people talking about it, perhaps it means always been a bit kind of left field within psychology. I mean William James the the father of American psychology coined the term, but it wasn't until the 1960s actually that people like stanislav grof and and Maslow and James fadiman a picked up on this notion and you know created the the the field of transpersonal psychology if you like so it's been around a while. Yeah, but in terms of getting into the academic discourse is I guess it's so it's relatively recent and and and how does that sort of map on too long? Other thinking about consoles. Is it a different form of Consciousness or is it an extension of concerts? I mean, how do you put it in the sort of framework of of Consciousness thought and thinking in theory? Well, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think you know, what do we actually understand by what his Consciousness in the first place? So these are you know, these experiences are within the realm of Consciousness, but they're just not ordinary everyday life kind of experiences and that they may have kind of profound can competence and knock on After Effects such that people maybe have a less fear of of death may become more empathic or community-minded or more ecologically minded and so these are profound experiences typically if they progressed in their best way that can have profound effects on the on the person's individual personality. So I think you can look at it like that there within the field of Consciousness, but just a little bit unusual and uncommon so why do they occur them? Is it always drugs or you know other things bring them on? Well, that's where my research is directed into. I mean certainly as we discovered as you you're discovering with all this wonderful research psychedelic. So particularly of all classes of drugs, very good at inducing transpersonal experiences and yet from various ancient Traditions around the world and even modern-day practices. We know that perhaps any Old State of Consciousness of all to save Consciousness will do for getting you into a kind of Trance personal realm, although you know, psychedelic drugs seem to be a lot more reliable and inducing these experiences, but it's often a kind of bit of a sledgehammer for a note perhaps and you know, you could equally have these experiences through just some kind of prolonged meditation or perhaps some Yoga practices or time spent in a dark room or something like that. Yeah. I remember the things most fascinated me when I was starting to do psychology University with with a float a dog. I think people you know, you lie people flat in warm water and suddenly after a few minutes things are very different. And of course that's now been reconstructed as a as explaining the fact that our brain creates the environment when it's got no input. It creates his own environment and I think for me the interest lies in what the relationship between these other non-drug non psychedelic States Of Consciousness and how they match up to what we're now discovering which is you know, moving forward in a very fast way about psychedelic drugs and their understanding of their action in the brain and the psychopharmacology of those and can we apply some. Neuropsychopharmacology to non drug Altered States Of Consciousness as well and we quite interesting too challenging but interesting to scan someone in the flotation tank. I can't quite wage how we do it with that fusing the MRI stuff. But there's also there's also this concept of putting people in these an anechoic chamber to explain to people what that's about Yeah, so these are undercover Chambers were initially built for engineering and Acoustics and studying the properties of sound or the absence of sound and Sonic devices in acoustically dead isolated environments, but people doing research in those environments found that they'd often have quite strange experiences inside the anechoic chamber. So there's they suck out all the timber out of the air these these Chambers. So not only is there no sound coming in from the outside, but all the sounds created in within it are also extremely dead. And so there's there's kind of actually negative decibels inside a chamber and if you combine that with them also being pitch black kind of kind of seal it off and so there's no light coming in as well. You have a very unique sensory deprivation chamber with the absence of sound and light. So we did an experiment long as it's kind of all signs collaboration where people volunteered I should say to go inside the chamber for a two hours or so a time and we found when you use the same kind of measures to use dead, With people and psychedelics, you know Altered States Of Consciousness scale and so on that people have experiences which are very similar to psychedelic experiences on paper at least with the psychometric wage and a few other features pop up as well. So like a sensed presence for instance was quite common really sort of same kind of sense presences. You might get from DMT. Yeah, well on paper certainly this exact same kind, I mean an experience of sense of presence though. Typically, they weren't the the fully-formed geometric praying mantis aliens or whatever you might get with DMT these but it's more just a sense of loss something else or someone else in the room with me and it was it was very apparent and in ninety percent of those cases. They also felt it was quite ominous which was interesting and perhaps gives us some insight into maybe things like sleep paralysis where these experiences also occur. So well, that's really that's interesting years as a clinician. I used to run a Sleep Clinic and sleep paralysis have really improved. Disorder and that's the first time I've ever heard of it. Well, thanks for sharing that with me pretty the clinics close, but I think about it and then there's this concept of holotropic breathwork. What is that? So this was a technique developed by stanislav grof one of the founders of transpersonal psychology. He was a you know a psychiatrist and was the kind of pioneer of psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy. And one of course prohibition came in in the nineteen-sixties. He had to stop his work with psychedelics and developed this technique, which he trademarked could holotropic breathing which is essentially a simple hyperventilation technique of over breathing but then in along the same principles of view might do a psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy session, so people are wearing eye shades have got very loud evocative music playing but they're they're going into this kind of over breathing technique of hyperventilation which induces an altered state of consciousness quite this kind of dreamy State some amount of perhaps a briefing With his unconscious material coming up to the conscious mind and people are often exploring previous traumas or buried memories or having insights about various personal interpersonal kind of psychological dimensions of their own history interestingly that other topic breath waiting Nikki, although it's been steady. Clinically quite a lot for years. Nobody's really expected it as an altered state of consciousness in the same way. We explore psychedelics again, so we have all these lovely measures of the the Psychedelic space and the predictor variables but not of or these other non-drug of Altered States which have been around for years, but no-one studied them in a kind of pure kind of Consciousness way. You're not your research. You're trying to look at the overlap similarity and dissimilarity Thursday. I mean in terms of in terms of do they have when you kind of touched on the holotropic potentially allowing memories and suppressed memories government suit, but can they all be therapeutic to think or is that one of the questions your boss? Well, I'm not I'm not so interested in the in the clinical side. I mean I think is really important obviously, but my my own research direction is not particularly clinically focused. Although I keep an eye on that and that's one of the things I would like to explore a lot of that research has been done, you know, so all of these are the states seem to have some therapeutic potential and often that's how they've been used. But you know, I'm I'm more exploring it from the dimension of how do they relate to other Altered States Of Consciousness? I mean holotropic breathwork has been used therapeutically for for many years already and you can probably get reviews of of the clinical efficacy of that how their although probably hasn't been done any other kind of you know, standardized procedure can no randomized way so funny thing because when I was running an anxiety disorder actually one of the diagnostic tests we used to use in people who tended who have panic disorder was get them to have eventually and they just couldn't within it within ten ten breaths. They were panicking. So it's it's fascinating that you can log. Hyperventilating produce a profoundly different state depending on what I guess your basic, you know your vulnerability to anxiety or yeah, it's interesting actually, you know in in the nineteen fifties and the sixties that one of the things when they're obviously working in a clinical context a bit more things were a bit easier for your back. Then one of the main people kind of Distributing LSD at the time would pretest people for how they would respond by giving them carbs and which is a mixture of comedy acts like an oxygen which gives you a very short but intense altered state of consciousness, you know, and if if people really freaked out he decided not to give them an SD office consequence. So he used it as a yardstick testing ground for how they would react to this this intense altered state but interestingly, I mean, I don't know if if Hannah Storm worth were particularly Works along with the same principles as carbogen as such, you know harbhajan, you're having a massive increase in the amount of carbon dioxide you're inhaling where is in hyperventilation wage? You're getting an increase in in oxygen. So they seem to work in in very different ways physiologically, but the end result is that people get into these often profound on States Of Consciousness. So they don't think the underlying physiology of those experiences deserves to be explored more as well. In terms of what we can learn about Consciousness in the brain. Yeah. I mean absolutely there again, it's difficult because oil change blood flow. When were you using a methodology correcting for changes blood flow really vary quite challenging but maybe e g or energy would be probably a way forward to that. But your particular research is to collect subjective data and try to make sense of the different experiences through this through subjective questionnaires. And in this regarding this particular project and mapping out of state. Jective experience in the phenomenology of that taking primarily a psychometric approach. I do some kind of more behavioral experimental stuff as well exploring things like synesthesia wage. But yeah, this particular project is exploring the mall psychometric angle, but you see synesthesia is an altered state of consciousness as well as a more holistic consensus. I mean how to explain to the listeners what synesthesia is former case. He doesn't look so synesthesia is actually a natural condition we can say I mean, it's it's not pathological typically but a small percentage of the population actually have synesthesia congenital whereby there is a blending of of the senses in which you may see sounds or taste colors or have colors associated with numbers or letters or Thursday of the week and so on and so forth. So you have a kind of combined sensory experience where one thing that in an inducer will also have a concurrent sensory experience which people often have synesthesia ordinarily get so that's congenital condition. Let's say amongst a small percent of the population. However, what we find is on people on psychedelics for instance wage. Very often have this experience. And so the the really interesting question is it can our study of psychedelic induced anesthesia. Tell us something about the underlying biology of congenital synesthesia and therefore about Consciousness itself how experiences become combined. Where do you start this this idea that God the whole purpose of education and development and growing up is about stopping your brain doing the clever things that used to do when you're a child and you're sympathetic to that view that it's about breaking down your capacity of the brain and making it much more limited in rigid. Do you think that's what growing up the record? It feels like it. I mean, I guess to some extent I mean if you take the exam anesthesia again, so there are we know that there are a number of people in Iowa small myself. I had synaesthesia when I was young but it it consisted a certain point. So it's a developmental. Well, it's partially wage. The mentor because often some of the experiences you have are linked to developmental indices like reading, you know letters numbers days of the week time. We're not born knowing about those things and yet you can get very specific colors become attached to those and some people go on to develop it but some people have it in their youth and then not carry it through into adulthood. But if there's people are adults anesthesia have had in their whole life. So in some respects, we maybe we went maybe restricting. Yeah certain abilities and tendencies through the way we socialize educate children as possibility. Definitely. Do you think it's it's a special sort of trait in contributes potentially just your art or creativity some people talk about altered Consciousness as having a valve that sense. Well, there are a lot of good examples of famous artists and musicians who've used their synesthesia in their creativity and it's generally kind of considered that synesthetes log. Maybe more more creative but you know, there's obviously a lot of discussion around that in the research literature and certainly people can use their create their vicinities are in very creative ways as they can with their wage other anomalous or exceptional experiences that occur in in psychedelics, you know such as for the use of creative problem-solving what we're beginning to understand is that Altered States such as through the use of psychedelic can be very good at inducing what we call Divergent thinking but at the same time reducing converging thinking which is our everyday logical linear way of solving problems with very good at creating new Solutions, very novel sometimes kind of a bit wacky or nonsensical kind of solutions to existing problems, but the fact is they give us the choice of a fresh creative perspective perspective on on on Old problems quite often and I guess that's that's why governments are so terrified of them why they were banned. Is that would you go home? I think that's probably at least one of the reasons I would say. Yeah, I'm sure there's many many many reasons. It is a curious thing where they are. So terrified of them when they have so much potential for all manner of positive uses within Society not least clinically in terms of Psychiatry and mental health, but in a non clinical context as well in terms of improving creativity relationships home of the brave problem solving ecological Consciousness. So on, you know, forever finding more potential benefits to these extraordinary State's office will get back to the interview in just a second. I just want to thank all the drugs science community members for your continued support without you the dissemination of information. Like this would not be possible drug song is and always will be independent. This means we don't accept sponsorships, but by becoming a drug science Community member you'll be helping us bring about change. You'll also receive access to exclusive wage. And we'll be able to attend all drug science events for free to see how to become a Community member click on the link in the show notes. Now where where we let's get back to the show. Let's stick with the last one ecological combat. That's a new term. That's right. I was at the I mean just for the listeners who makes you have mentioned it but you and you were one of the the founders and I think still are one of the truck drivers of breaking convention, which is a confidence that happens. I think is it still every year is every two years. It takes as a year to recover. Yeah. So this is a conference. Would you holding your own University down in the beautiful Campus of credits and I was there last year and it was fascinating to hear people some of the leaders of Extinction Rebellion talking about how their sympathy there aren't you know, there's a realization that we were a really difficult place and had to change came from their own psychedelic experience. That was is that what you mean by ecological Consciousness? Yes, absolutely. So, you know the research that myself and a few others have been doing some of the research coming out in. It's found that people having psychedelic experiences often feel that they become equal more ecologically orientated as wage. Their experience and this would be fine this with so-called recreational use and even in the laboratory, you know, people having psychedelics in a lab setting still have an increase what we call bio, you know, they have a an increased kind of desire to be in nature and and deeper connection with nature purely for their psychedelic experience. So, you know in in this kind of current ecological crisis in a submarine and the 6th wave of mass extinction on the planet. This can be quite crucial and critical in in helping people who are increasingly urbanized into wage being more drawn to appreciate and and careful and have concern for for nature which is you know, not not a small thing really no no indeed, but it's impressive how it off. I suppose it's one of the features of of certainty of psychedelic and maybe the other Altered States Of Consciousness as to how they can often be directive in the sense that they show people a path to do things wage. You know that they didn't previously think they should do and give them the motivation and the drive to do it and good luck to them because we said that kind of leadership hear me. Yeah absolutely be interesting to know what the kind of drives that are. You know exactly. I mean it it seems to be kind of generally speaking. There's an increased sense of of of connectivity on you know, every level from the biological to the home to the cosmic isn't you know, there's a there's increased kind of connectivity within the brave in the Region's psychologically with with yourself, you know, sociologically with other people enhanced Cathy and so on and also with the environment and then on up into you know spiritual or what kind of astronomical Realms as well, you know, but how do we kind of conceptualize that pharmacologically I conceptualize it by the value of all the the purpose of these receptors is to assist to allow you to think differently, you know with thinking why why why dog? Brain have so many of these serotonin to a receptors in in the parts of the brain, which do the the important thinking and and I think it's got to be signed to do with making you think differently and and thought maybe when when Humanity gets two major challenges, like environmental disaster were facing that those receptors can help people think and come up with new Solutions and and behave differently in the song Maybe fundamental to the nature of human growth and understanding in an Insight the brain, you know one level is a chemical organ and it's got to be more receptive switch actually mediate those kind of Altered States. It's just the two waivers up to certainly what would be the most obvious when we have a present and we know it's in here the one through which psychedelics work and that's what I find fascinating about it cuz it's completely orthogonal to Conventional Consciousness, which is kind of odd, you know, you awake or asleep you remember situation into the surgery drugs make you think differently that's why I'm interested in it because it's a way of proving Consciousness and you've obviously come to it from a conscious of perspective I've gained It from a pharmacological perspective, but we were both in the same space pretty much all we do you ever sort of begin to sort of rub shoulders with religious beliefs. Do you think your research home internet to some extent? Yes. I mean, well, I mean one of the interesting thing we find from psychedelics, I think and and other Altered States and and you know. Says into exploring one's own Consciousness is there's people tend to be less religious and and and kind of terms of spiritual so they can people moving away from you know, the classic. Yeah, monotheistic religious beliefs perhaps and and moving into more kind of agnostic or other areas, you know, the reason she says they've been doing a Hopkins they found that people that had profound experiences with DMT either encounters with God or encounters with entities of some kind off. The majority of people who call themselves atheists before would categorize themselves as being non atheist afterwards in this could be after one ten-minute experience of DMT, which is you know, extremely profound but typically not towards a classic organized religion more towards a kind of I'm a known atheist. I'm not quite sure what I am maybe agnostic maybe spiritual but something off the so I think it definitely does come up against religious religious belief, but in the in the classic way, perhaps I mean his greatcoat home from Paul McCartney after he and he said I don't sure I still God but I do that was something more. I think I got a lot of trouble for that to me. But what about things like precognition internet? Do you see there in the same sort of Arena or they experiences as opposed to changes and I mean to tell us about them why you're interested in them sure. I mean, so I mean off Trust by these is exceptional experiences again, and and people often have them, you know, I mean, well a lot of people will have an experience like that at some point in their life, but they're not very common. But you know over the course of Lifetime the majority of people will have one experience where they say. Oh, yeah. I had this dream and then showing up the next day something happened, which was very like the dream or you know, Granny back up at 3:00 in the morning and starts waving saying goodbye. And then the next day they find out that Granny died at 3:00 in the morning and so, you know these occur but not very often enough that people have these experiences but we find in Altered States Of Consciousness such as with psychedelics or dreams. And in fact, most of these experiences tend to occur in some kind of altered state now, that doesn't mean we can just offhand project them as being some kind of hallucination and and when we begin to explore these by doing, you know controlled experiments we find that we can get reliable effect. Even though the effect size is a very small, you know, the when you stack them up over the time we can find, you know, small positive increments above what we might expect to find by chance alone. We we get people to try and access some kind of information from the future especially when they're in an altered state of consciousness or when you get them to not think about what they're doing at all and just look at their their physiological responses such as you know, the galvanic skin resistance responds to emotional or neutral images which then took up in the future that there's a kind of pre anticipation. So the there's not some good data, I'd say that these been gathered over the years showing that there are very small but perceptible affects where we need to be able to access information from the future in a way which does not rely on inference. It's actually this is quite complicated. So, can you maybe just explain how to explain I would work, please. Okay, so I give you the example of my experience I've been doing with with people in the influence of psychedelics and non-gaap. So they are told to try and visualize a Target which will be a 1-minute video clip. They don't know the contents of it. There's just be a woman included a video clip from the movie. They they they come up with some kind of visualization. We wish we record and then they're shown for 1-minute video clips and they have to then say well it was a little bit like this one. Not much like that one a lot of this one. And so they rank ordered the full video clip. So you see relative to their visualization and then a random number generator will then decide what the actual Target was. So this is completely wage independent is more abstract, but it's also, you know independent and there's no possibility of them Beyond pure statistics, you know probability of guessing what the the random ROM A generator is going to select and yet we find that there is a kind of positive deviation that they get the target more often than chance is interesting, isn't it? I mean, we've just published a paper from the data from the Global Drug survey. We have to question who you know early psilocybin experience. We had a few people that were color blind and they said they could see colors better afterwards. And of course, you know when I spoke to visit my physiology that's impossible because kind of blindness is in the retina. But so we put a question into the Global Drug survey into another fifty people out of it a significant number of people do see colors better after psychedelics. And sometimes that's that's enduring and in these are color blind people and it opens up your mind to the fact that you know, the mind is doing a lot more than just a processing what's coming into your eyes, which clearly what you're discovering as well either. I kind of interpret it a bit as it as it again as we touched on earlier that a lot of what the Mind does is stop you doing things cuz it's you know, they dead. Brains a lazy organized just want you to get that come on, you know get this work done get my home, you know get you know, feed me and sleep me. Whereas if you start to start start fantasizing about the future and changing your perception of world since the Earth Juice to bring is irritated which of course, you know, when and which is I guess what actually you're talking about with the you know, the brain is a device for limiting the mind would you agree with him? I think that you know, there's some value in what Hooks you said. I mean it's as far as very simplistic kind of vary pharmacologically speaking, but you know in essence I think there's a lot of value in the this idea that the brain adds to just yeah just kind of keep things as ordered as possible and filter out what isn't just completely necessary and tries to make as many shortcuts as possible and then psychedelics have this action of turning off that reducing reducing valve of the brain is oxycodone. Just opening you up to a whole wealth of sensory experience, which you you know, you wouldn't ordinarily have but yeah these these perceptual anomalies are very interested. I've been dead. Getting interested in in a Fantasia of people have no mental imagery and how they respond to the psychedelics. And also I'm sorry tell us a bit more about that. I've never heard of a Fantasia. So that's only recently had a name which is extraordinary and it's one of those things. Well, as soon as you give it a name loads of people go and you and it becomes public knowledge everybody goes. Oh, I've got that. I didn't realize there was anything different about me off because people are have no mental visual imagery whatsoever. You know, if you get them to try and visualize an elephant close Ur eyes and see an elephant they they just don't see anything. It's just black don't tell me you've got a fantastic. You just can you see another I can I'm working on it kind of these people, you know, they they just assumed when other people are talking about visualizing things. They're speaking metaphorically and then they discover actually know they're in a maybe a small percentage maybe one or two per-cent of people who have no mental energy visual imagery whatsoever. So the Curious Thing is well what happens when we give them extreme? Boats and psychedelics. Daisy and what does happen well, so it seems so far in the case of most people don't see anything still even like extremely potent DMT experiences. They get all the other effects, but they just think any visible effect. Whereas we have found that there's one case of a person who had a Fantasia since his childhood, but then was able to see a a mental imagery after his I was based business, but it seems that he probably had some kind of functional aphantasia seems to be a difference is seem to be induced a young age by trauma as opposed to being born with it. So, you know, there's a lot we can learn about Consciousness and imagery and so forth as well and have you everywhere with hypnosis cuz that's an interesting ordered stating I guess might appeal to you took my list so much to do this David. I am planning to do some hypnotic regression with people have had psychedelic experiences and and then see you know, how much of the experience We can recreate purely through hypnotic suggestion. Obviously suggestibility is going to be a factor, but I think you know that has a lot of potential in maybe helping us understand some of the underlying neurobiology and also potentially having some utility clinically as well. You know, if people are having remission from depression on their first site psilocybin experience, and then the experience Wayne's do we necessarily want you can have to keep giving them psilocybin or could we look to explore reintroducing the experience through you know hypnosis or something like that? You think might be able to do that? That's the news to me that's fascinating. I never thought about it the were a couple of papers back in the sixties where they'd they'd managed and author Hastings again a few years later, but there's only been about two or three studies when they managed to be induced full-blown psychedelic experiences. People said, he was like a nine out of ten on terms of their psychedelic experience. Well, yeah, but the majority of people off Remember that so I can experience is so they're there somewhere. I mean they're in there's a circuit which is encoded them and read some old literature, you know, and beginning of the nineteen hundreds on the home hit noses and individuals who had been hypnotized were able to do things like remember objects or directions with the Precision way better than they could when they're unhappy times again suggesting that that when you get some your subcortical brain is actually a pretty sophisticated brain. It's just gets blocked out by your course the cortex can get in the way sometimes no. Well. Yeah, I think that's its purpose is again at I mean at one level. Yeah, I mean, you know most most creatures when there's a live pretty well without much of a cortex units. My my dog's a month Promotional and much more in tune with the world than I am anything like this sort of a huge cortical influences over their emotions. And we do what about your what is your work help us think about disorders like wage? Anyway, you've got Altered States Of Consciousness, which are kind of destructive and potentially, you know, harmful to the person or or two others. I think it's interesting. I think there is a lot to learn obviously psychedelics when their first month to Psychiatry. They were thought of as psychotomimetic and they would mimic a psychotic experience and I think there's there's some things that can be learned but I think the, you know, there's there's not a one-to-one overlap or or model, you know of the of schizophrenia to psychedelic experience say, I mean, they're kind of differ in perhaps. I mean obviously can get delusional with psychedelics. But in terms of the hallucinations typically my understanding and he was more auditory hallucinations whereas psychedelics are very Visual and it's not a hard-and-fast rule, but I think there's something that can be learned what I think would be really interesting to explore is off those experiences where people do develop prolonged psychosis triggered by a psychedelic experience and how that is similar or different to Classic psychosis. Yep. Again, it's hard to tease. The pole is the secondary inducing The psychosis or is it just activating an underlying psychosis? And you know, the the epidemiology would suggest it's just trigger an underlying psychosis and a lot of cases. So, you know, there's something to be learned there, but I don't think that there's a one-to-one map between the states and and schizophrenia for instance off because that gets to the question of can I mean have you ever worked with cannabis which is a sort of halfway house to between it all it's a it's an altered state of consciousness. It's not as profound as a psychedelic with a differently real quick oil change if you have you ever worked in that space. No, I've not been so interested in in in cannabis in my my career. Although I do I think it certainly can be psychedelic, you know, not in it's not a classic psychedelic as in being social ergic in that way but it is I mean the experience is the right dosage or the right individual can be very psychedelic. Like and it might be that we can learn more perhaps from psychosis from from from Cannabis perhaps in terms of the the more of the kind of experiences that it can produce it. It seems you know, as a good tendency to induced paranoia certainly and a certain certain amount number of people perhaps these strongest strains of cannabis that we offer these days with without CBD, you know, there's like nature some has yet to know best and there's has in-built checks and balances and we've got a long ago. Oh great. Let's just ramped up the THC and wage really then bump up the the paranoia and delusions as well. You know, so you've been working in this field for twenty years now, maybe more. I don't know how long the rest of the psychology catching up for you still a bit of an anomaly. Well, I think I'm still a bit of an anomaly. I hope so I have to change career career Direction, but it it certainly has changed. Practically since you know, I started out, you know in my my own interest, I mean you couldn't really even study psychedelics twenty years ago. And and now of course it's it's a hot-button topic and everybody wants to do it. I think some of the more exceptional experiences are still sidelined a bit but we're starting to see those being explored more and I think that's that's really important and useful because you know, if if we are exploring this terrain, we what we want to include the full spectrum of human consciousness and these experiences a for what we can learn about the nature of Consciousness and Human Experience, but also be home for the you know, their potential in helping people deal with these experiences if if and when they do have them which if people are going to have psychedelic therapy or psychedelic experiences, they probably will Thursday. We need to really better understand them and be prepared to kind of help people integrate those experiences, I think but yeah, it's catching up you think we'll have a discipline of faith. I think psychology is a I mean, are you maybe or even teaching that course are you I I am actually but it's taking a long while you know, the education rather lights behind the science. Unfortunately. I've just started teaching of course as part of an online Masters on psychedelics within a masters course and transpersonal psychology. But as far as I know, there's no thought courses anywhere in the country in the UK or anywhere in Europe. I know teachers are courses on on psychedelics or psychedelic psychology or even psychedelic pharmacology psychopharmacology particularly off and yet there's all this kind of burgeoning research coming through. So there's there's definitely a an educational Lacuna there which, you know demands to be addressed or David. I'm sure you've got a master's and if you've ever you want someone to come and talk about the the Neuroscience of psychedelics, feel free to invite me. I would absolutely love that David. I'll take you up on that. Thank you. Yes, it's been really great job. Continue today David our time is up and thanks again and keep up the good work. You know you definitely a Pioneer and thanks very much indeed. But I hope you enjoy that that was a a race for all sorts of Altered States Of Consciousness, including psychedelics, and David is clearly been one of the pioneers of thinking about how we can integrate these different states of Mind into a theory of Consciousness, and also use it to help people think about how to help people and also develop new treatments. So, I hope you've enjoyed the podcast. If you have please show me, please follow me on Twitter, please follow drug sites on Twitter. And ideally, please become a member of the drug science Community because drug science is a charity that relies on donations from people like you and walk if you sign up to the community, then you'll get opportunities to attend drug science meetings get our Publications in advance and most importantly support our important work in terms of gibbering truth about drugs to the general public. Thank you for listening song.

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Rare Earths: The Hidden Cost to Their Magic, Part 1

Distillations: Science + Culture + History

25:29 min | 1 year ago

Rare Earths: The Hidden Cost to Their Magic, Part 1

"Hello, and welcome to distillation a podcast powered by the science history institute. I'm Alexis Patrick. And I'm Lisa very Drako in each episode of dissolutions. We take a deep dive into a moment of science related history. In order to shed some light on the present today, we're talking about rare earth elements, and this is a big story. So we broke it up in a two parts both of which are available right now. In part, one, we're going to tell you about the magic, and in partout, we're going to tell you about the costs. Chapter one, the fishermen on September seven two thousand and ten a Chinese man fishing near disputed islands in the East China Sea set in motion an international crisis with the facts that would be felt around the world. Here's what happened of maritime drama, which sparked the worst political row in years between China and Japan. A Chinese fishing vessel is order to stop by Japanese sailors, ordeal. You Lind's have periodically been a source of geopolitical tension between China and Japan for years. The islands are uninhabited, but they're claimed by China, Japan and Taiwan China and Japan have a peacekeeping agreement that says no one from either country is allowed to get within twelve nautical miles of the islands. And if someone did get within twelve nautical miles of the islands, then it would be the. Ability of whichever coastguard was patrolling at the time to escort that person back out into international waters. This is Julie Clinger a geographer and an assistant professor of international relations at Boston University, the agreement, she describes sound simple enough but things got complicated for the fishermen. This fisherman had gotten a little too close to the islands. His name is John cheese shown and instead of complying with the routine escort back out into international waters. He instead, rammed his fishing vessel into Japanese coastguard vessel. And because of this he was detained Japanese voices. Apparently wall Chinese captain is turning towards them and they brace. When news of the arrest hit Chinese and international media, the part about him ramming his boat into the coastguard was left out as was the fact that he was drunk. And so what it actually looked like at the time in September of two thousand and ten was that Japan detained an innocent Chinese fishermen, and this was interpreted in China, as an active esscalation. And so this took on a real. Big significance, I think far beyond what the actual incident called for. And so Beijing was working with a thorns in Tokyo in order to secure the release in the repatriation of Mr John. Meanwhile, the public wasn't really hearing a whole lot about this. And there were several people who felt like Beijing was not responding appropriately enough. People were angry. And some of them decided to take matters into their own hands. There'd be nationalistic protests in both countries in China, some of turn violent despite efforts by security forces to keep them under control. But one way that handful of people decided to teach Japan a lesson. Was actually by withholding exports bound for Japan. It just so happened that some of these exports were earth elements. If you only have the Vegas idea of what rare earth elements actually are. Or if you've never heard of them at all, you're not alone, and in September of two thousand and ten most people around the world we're in the same boat that was all about to change. Fall of two thousand ten. The whole world wakes up to our reliance on rare elements, rare earth, elements are often called the spices, or the vitamins of industry because what we don't need them in large quantities. They're in pretty much everything we associate with our modern world, my favorite metaphor is that they're like, yeast and pizza, the only need a little bit of it, but without it, there's no pizza another way to say is that with elements are essential for both the hardware and the software of life as we know it. They power phones and computers. They're in wind turbines, hybrid, cars and power windows, there in dental implants x Ray machines. Lifesaving cancer drugs, that shipment that was held back in China by just a handful of people could have contained anything. But it happened to hold rare earth elements, the essential tiny components that make our modern lives possible. Nobody really knew or even really missed of the fact. That these shipments of rare elements had been held up until Japan's customs authority inquired, China's customs authority what happened to the ships. And so people start asking questions where gets out that. That some brave Chinese nationals are teaching Japan, some humility by reminding of its economic dependence on China. And then the story sort of took on a life of its own China surprised governments around the world by halting shipments of something called rare or national concern soared higher on September twenty second when China stopped all exports to Japan following the arrest of Chinese fishermen in disputed territorial waters amidst rising tensions. A lot of people had to learn a lot of things very quickly. I what I rare elements. Why are they important enough that China would embargo these things against Japan? And why does that matter people began making obvious, but incorrect conclusions, like, for example, this one? So these things called where elements are being embargoed by China. That must mean they're rare. And the fact that in too. Two thousand and ten China produced ninety seven percent of the world's rare earth elements led to another obvious yet. Incorrect conclusion, oh, China produces the most rare elements because China has the most rare earth elements and all of these assumptions lead to a big frightening conclusion that China was holding the world hostage through it supposed rare earth embargo that China was engaging in some kind of economic warfare. This was the narrative that blew up overnight, and, of course, the markets reacted accordingly. The prices for certain rare elements increased by more than two thousand percent, the fishing boat incident had worldwide implications this unleashes a gold, rush all of a sudden everybody is looking for the elements. So there's a sort of swashbuckling like gold, rush sensibility, that was really. Fed by the two thousand and ten crisis. But you're probably still wondering what this really has to do with you. Why should we care so much about rare earths like we said earlier, our entire modern world is made possible by this collection of elements, seventeen seventeen elements that are sprinkled in small amounts through some of our most powerful futuristic and dairy say it magical tools while we don't need much of them. Rare earths are what make the magic happen. They have unusual magnetic, and electrical properties that make our stuff faster stronger and lighter. And we've been coasting along enjoying their magic for while now. In fact, we've come to expect magic. Nothing less than magic will do. And if you're a scifi and fantasy nerd like me you already know what comes next. It's the twist that the evil wizard doesn't recognize until it's too late. Magic always comes at a cost for us. The cost of our magical devices and technology is environmental devastation, and it's a big cost, but it's invisible to most of us in the western world. So we didn't even realize we paying for it at first back at September two thousand ten when a Chinese fishermen, rammed his boat into a Japanese coastguard ship. It did just make us all aware of the existence of rare earths inserted making us aware of their price tag. And it turns out that magic is usually better left a mystery. Because when you pull back the curtain, it's usually complicated and ugly. But we're distillation and pulling back the curtain is what we do. So here we go starting back at the beginning. Thing. But first chapter to a brief rare earths primer, we realized that, if you're listening to this podcast, it's entirely possible that you are familiar with the periodic table. Maybe you've looked at it on occasion, maybe more than one occasion even numerous occasions since eleventh grade. But for those of you who have not, we see you, we love you and you're not alone. So on the periodic table, you've got all the elements sorted together into groups things that have similar characteristics are near each other like, for instance, the elements in group, one are the Alkali metals, or as I learn them, the things that explode if you drop them in water, the rare earth elements, are mostly in group six, they're generally silver, silvery, white or gray medals. They're shiny, until they had the air, when they tarnish, they also have high electrical conductivity, and this is where the magic comes in one of the most important applications of rare earths are in magnets. The magnet basically changes electric city into motion the stronger. The magnet is the more motion, you can get, so a strong tiny magnet can make your iphone vibrate itself off the table and the same idea works backwards to magnets. Make it possible to change motion into electricity. Like when the shaft of a wind turbine, spins inside a magnetic field. It becomes an electrical generator and the scientists started discovering in the nineteen eighties, you can make really strong magnets, when you combine small amounts of rare earths like neodymium and dyspraxia m- with metals, like iron and boron. These powerful permanent magnets are partly would allows our gadgets to keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Rare earth aren't radioactive, but they're often found in rocks alongside radioactive elements and this is the big thing they're hard to separate from other metals and elements around them. Instead of thinking of it like panning for gold where you can just wash off the dirt and boom. You're done. Getting rare earths. Is more like played? Yes, Plato, stay with us. Picture bunch of differently colored pieces of Plato if you've ever watched a kid mush them together, you know how hard it is to separate those colors back into their original containers. So that's what it's likely. Find rare earths in the crown, that's a bit about what they are. But perhaps more important is also what they're not despite their name. They are neither rare nor earth's at least not in the way we use that term now and that's part of the problem in the eighteenth century, when they were discovered people understood rare to me, new and earth's was because before we understood. Tron and atomic weight we classified elements by their properties gases medals, non medals and earth's in some ways. They're actually the opposite of rare. They're everywhere. But while they're spread roughly evenly over the surface of the earth. It's hard to find a lot in one place and extracting them like trying to pull apart that ball of Plato, their jumbled together with lots of other minerals in different concentrations, and thus ends are brief rare earths primer. Now, they're all back on the same page back to the story, chapter three the excitement of discovery even though it wasn't until two thousand and ten that most of the world realized our dependence on rare earths, they've been around for a lot longer. Charlotte Abney Salomon is a research fellow here at the science history institute, and an expert in eighteenth, century, Swedish mineralogy and Sweden happens to be the place where the first rare earth element was discovered I have made a pilgrim. Image to the to the quarry and interbay where they original stone was found. Ater be Sweden is a tiny island off Stockholm it sometimes called the Galapagos island of the periodic table, because seven elements were discovered there for them are named after the island in the seventeen eighty s a Swedish artillery officer who was highly educated in chemistry was looking at, at some of the rocks, that had been found and identified one rock that was unusual. And it found its way to a chemist by the name of Johann gotta lean in Finland who, analyzed it to see what was so unusual about it, it was a rock, unlike anything he'd seen before and got lean got credit for discovering, new type of quote unquote earth. The excitement was mainly that it was new, but the rock didn't really do anything wasn't magic yet then nature of their. Chemistry means that they behave very, very, very, very, very similarly. So they really do appear as one pure substance. And so over the years, they were able to assess them with finer and finer distinction and actually make the distinction between these elements at the turn of the century Swedish natural historians were obsessed with cataloging and categorizing nature. Practicality is absolutely a stereotype of, of this character, and it's as a as a scientific community. They absolutely went very, very deep over a very long period of time in an attacking the question and mineralogical for also obsessed with the idea of chemically analyzing every new rock. They found on the ground so they separated out rare earth elements and began to organize them the first rare earth they identified would eventually be named. Trim. The second cerium. Then lantana. Di Demi 'em with turned out to be a mixture of praseodymium and neodymium. Then it trim Irby 'em and Turbie, then LARs Friedrich Nilsson another Swede detected an element in eighteen seventy nine which he called wait for it. Scandi m. After scandinavia. So one by one. The rarer are discovered until finally are seventeen the only problem was that no one really knew what to do with them. I have seen a periodic table from about one hundred years ago that says rare earths, and it has an asterisk and says, they're so rare and so an important that we won't be naming them here. And so certainly a hundred years ago, they were definitely considered just a kind of trivia of the periodic table. So the years go by, like a hundred of them, and there's lots of discovery but no application until until a chemist went looking for some. Hey listeners, we just wanna take a moment and reminds you to check out our website, distillation dot org. That's right. Because does delay Sion's is more than a podcast for also multimedia magazine. We tell stories about the intersections between science culture and history. You can read about the pain relieving potential of hot peppers. You can watch video about an interactive astronomy textbook from the seventeenth century, and you can find every single distillation podcast episode ever. Also, you can find episode transcripts and research notes, all at distillation dot org. Back to the show. Chapter four Karl our von wills Bach and the mixed up metal. It's not until the eighteen nineties that any of these elements become commercially useful. Roger Turner is an historian and research, fellow here at the science history institute, he's telling us about Karl our on wall, Spock wells back was a German. Chemist NATO, eighty he was at the university of Heidelberg studying under Robert Bunsen of the Bunsen burner. Yeah. That guy the one who invented it. NATO eighty two wells back went to Vienna where he worked as an unpaid lab assistant doing chemical separations of what else rare earth elements but wells Bach had dreams. He wanted to be a powerful wizard. I mean industrial tycoon but there was only one problem in the eighteen eighties. Big business was in lighting, and one guy named Thomas Edison, pretty much have that on lock so well spot had to come up with something else, and he did better. Streetlights urban is going gangbusters in the late nineteenth century. There's more and more. People are moving into cities, those people wanted the streets to be lit at night and wells back makes their wishes come true. He creates the gas mantle. It's basically a fabric bag that creates light when it's heated by a flame. And it's powered by one percent thorium and ninety nine percent cerium of rare earth, and there, it is magic his lights became big business by the nineteen thirties, wells box company has made five billion of them, and he's made a ton of money which let's face it is one of the higher forms of sorcery. But there's a problem with his process. He's left with this kind of great piles of waste materials, which have this annoying tendency of catching on fire, so he put two in two together and realizes that perhaps, he can use the waste metals as as part of a fire starter. He calls. The leftover material Mishna towel or mixed up metal and with it. He makes a model of the modern cigarette lighter. But remember, Bajic has a cost all these brightly lit streets, and cigarette lighters weren't free, the first costs came from mining or to track, the rare earths needed to make the gas mantles was no easy process. And it did terrible damage to the water supply anytime you mining basically the water than reaches groundwater flows into streams that can poison streams and, and kill off the animals, and the plants that are in those streams finding rare earths caused other problems acid baths and radioactive materials were involved but at the time these costs were hidden to western consumers because they were happening in faraway places like, Brazil, India and South Africa places at the European nations using the materials had colonized as nifty. Streetlights and cigarette lighters are rare earth still hadn't permeated our lives yet for that to happen. We've got a fast forward to the Cold War, because what the history of science story without a chapter on the Manhattan project. Chapter five from uranium to color TV so the history of rare earth elements is tangled up with radioactive elements because rare earths themselves are literally physically tangled up with radioactive elements. That's one of their defining characteristics that they're bound up in deposits alongside things like uranium so win the Manhattan project needed uranium for the bomb during World War. Two it makes sense that they asked for help from one of the few rare earth chemists in the US after World War, Two the US all uranium as crucial to national security uranium made the bomb. Now their countries had to join in the arms race. They also wanted it for nuclear power. Their goal is to find uranium of wherever it can be extracted around the world and I use international sources as much as possible while preserving. On domestic deposits for, for future use in times when perhaps international trade is, is disrupted, and this sets off a wild mom in US history, if you can imagine it. It's the late nineteen forties. The US atomic energy commission, announces it will buy uranium or from any American who finds it itself uranium gold, rush. They found uranium beyond their wildest dreams, they were so successful because you're eighty Bouma going to great of mineral hunts we ever had done by the government. And I don't think we'll ever anything like it again. I know you'll be hugely surprised to hear that the public uranium prospecting initiative, did not go very well, newspaper accounts, describe cattle, stampedes people threatening each other with guns, some prospectors, reminding without protection and inhaled radioactive dust, the US government decided a little belatedly that they shouldn't encourage amateur mining anymore. One. National minded open in the Mojave desert in mountain pass California. The mine was operated by a company called Molycorp, and at first rare earths were kind of a sideline business for them. But that will change in the nineteen sixties a world of color, and the men of television long greened of capturing the old paint part of nature and brushing it on the screen color television was dope. But the red color onscreen could only be produced by the rare earth, element, EuropeaM, color, TV's, became big business, and the mountain pass. Mine was the largest supplier of rare earth elements to the world from nineteen sixty until the nineteen nineties, all thanks to color TV because once you have color, you can't go back to black and white. I it's magic then we expect it and then we can't live without it. But there's a cost there's always a cost. And this time, the cost was a lot more visible because it was happening in our own backyard judge. With wells box gas mantles the European had to be bathed neces- and heated up in high temperatures. That's what separated it from the rest of the Plato, ball produces a lot of ways to produces a huge amounts of radioactive water, and it produces a lot of acid byproduct, as well, common strategy to deal with all this contamination is to use something called a tailings pond. They're basically giant pools particles from a mine mixed in with chemicals and water to separate the stuff that you want from the stuff that you don't want. But these tailings ponds leak and poisoned the groundwater. And so that's the kind of repeated violations of California environmental law regarding the poisoning of groundwater that eventually played part of the role in shutting down the mountain pass mine. Federal investigators found that there were more than sixty spills of radioactive water that seat into the desert floor. Eventually the mine closed in two thousand and two but of course this didn't. Mean we were all ready to give up the magic. You know already. That's not how the story ends rare earths become an even bigger part of our lives. How did we do it by getting someone else to make the magic? You see something else contributed to the California mine closing China was quickly becoming the biggest rare earth supplier in the world. And neither mountain pass nor the US as a whole could keep up. Find out what happens next per to available now. This deletions is more than podcast. We're also a multimedia magazine. You can find our podcast videos and stories at distillation dot org. And you can follow the science history institute on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. This story was reported by Rico Toronto's and produced by him Mariel car, and missile, and this was mixed James Morrison for distillation. I'm Lisa berry Drako. And I'm Alexis Patrick. Thanks for listening.

China Japan science history institute US East China Sea Plato Lisa berry Drako China Alexis Patrick Beijing Taiwan China partout California John cheese Julie Clinger Lind assistant professor Boston University
"Questions Today's CPAs need to ask about tomorrow's blockchain" with Kirk Phillips, the 'Bitcoin CPA' (Philadelphia, USA)

Go Beyond Disruption

49:00 min | 2 years ago

"Questions Today's CPAs need to ask about tomorrow's blockchain" with Kirk Phillips, the 'Bitcoin CPA' (Philadelphia, USA)

"Welcome to beyond disruption for you'll learn. How emerging tech is changing the world of accounting business and finance our guest experts break down the latest news and everything from flock chains robotics artificial intelligence to human intelligence. Tune in to find out how you can stay ahead of the curve from office in London UK cloud. In this episode of the podcast the question today's CPA's need to ask about tomorrow's blockchain. We'll be talking about bitcoin blockchain and crypto currency with expert guest. Kirk Phillips also known as the bitcoin CPA hill help us onto questions. Like is there really such a thing as ver- blockchain? Doesn't professional skepticism seem a bit out of place and unnecessary in this secure new world. And why did he write a book about this? All anyway, isn't everything in the cloud? Those are just some of the things we'll be talking about with Kirk. So let's get started high Kirk where are you speaking to us from today? Hi, thanks for me. I really appreciate you. Having me on the show today sticking from Philadelphia PA USA the weather. They're not to warm. So you've got a Cup of coffee in hand as do I in between sips. We look forward to discussing a lot of interesting things. Thank you very much. Joining us on the punt. Cast. We'll be sharing your experience and insights with our community in more than one hundred ten countries. And some of those listeners may already be aware of your work. But everyone else is quick introduction. Deavere niche consulting practice in the crypto blockchain space. And that's an addition to pioneering many other projects you're the author of the ultimate bitcoin business guide. You've also been part of the as blockchain fundamentals program, you're a blogger euro contributed to why bitcoin magazine as well as coin desk, and you're most excited about hell blockchain will transform accounting essentially, you know, what you're talking about. And I think that's a good starts at one of we left out about you your work as the bitcoin CPA what else to do that connects with our topic. Thank you. Droughts in there. And there's many many things I'm about this forget some this morning. But other thing that's worth noting is unfortunate to participate in the AFC knees of virtual currency tasks worse, which came out of one of the existing practices. I guess individuals accident or something along those lines and the intention of that group was really put together a frequently asked questions and recommended approaches to the IRS guidance Mavericks occurs. Play Lackner often password years since the IRS without a bulletin eighteen and has put out any guns since that's so we work in the beginning of this year, twenty eight in several months, and near the end of may we put out a letter to the IRS saying at yours what we think are really ask questions. In the recommendations muscians because we thought it would be better approach to provide with recommendations are said, it'd be should not all the work. So if we're the IRS it was great via part of that topic because it was really great soothing inside work long with other really gels people who understand tax even deeper than ideal in many cases work together to understand his nuance stopping at house, generating a really it's not interesting because like many emerging that knowledge. People are actually seeking and you'd have to navigate without having it, emerges aid or. Eight or so these are these are interesting times that as the tax collection organization. That's essentially every person in the USA make sure they're able to stay on the right side of. Yes. Clarified that little bit more. But that is correct. The Internal Revenue Service tackling these subsidies shoes and every other agency similar agency in every other countries. Also insane thing when it comes to the blockchain, what are some of the things that people just assume or presume that actually they haven't got entirely, right? So when it comes to specially to the finance, and accounting profession, this technology is about much more than just bitcoin, isn't it? Yes. It is. That's a great question. I think one of the things that is talking about in articles and in other podcasts as you often see the blockchain referred to like, there's one almighty lodging, the Laci one that are. Are over two thousand guarantees and you could say over two thousand. Related lodgings now. So maybe close copies than other some baby. Non heroically of a new of the new development nature's worth. But when it comes down to their every block Sheen's different in there for all the parameters related different and the aspects of Ernst. This native boxing. So there was I mean, you could have a set Ramat, or is that might be now at forty different, you know, asked nights characteristics, eter different go on Blockchain's distance say though, blocking as light one already botching comes is everything is that is really quite something real especially the accountancy yet. You were folks typically attention via e mails. In addition to that know, when it comes to the bitcoin team have the best example ability that we've ever had history. So whatever that bar was the endpoint was the best example is not venture. To the right into the left. Ben whichever way get that. We have a new Sanford utility will also the other thing is all about with the Baccini watching has needed early well again, which martinis about bitcoin blockchain is highly mutable and evac money. God the reliability layer for lot for other currencies. And so it depends which one another one that may have asked inability. But in fact, this may be a lesson unit early in the bitcoin does really important double team is really referring to lovely watching. But then there are lot. Geez. In catch myself saying that incorrectly is well, so it's really were to get fired. Each of the nuances of terminology, in many cases, they are using one way practice even not technically correct of and maybe sometimes they're using in practice away. That actually is not the way that the let's say people in the states would say, but in some cases, it's not ten correct. But that's just the way it is us and say, that's the standard Republican talk about these are the nuances CBS counselors needs to really understand because then they're going to be relied on that trusted source, of course. And this is a change which most people are starting to. Pay a lot of attention to as you said, the IRS has being aware of it since two thousand fourteen but whether they've been paying attention to it since then as well something that you've helped to make sure that they do change is all around us, whether we paying attention to it or not we are surrounded by disruption or the potential for disruption, but things have always been changing. And in the context of the work that you've done what was the last big disruption that you saw in the profession what happened to those? That didn't adapt. And how did it change the organizations that you may have been working with at the time sometimes for the better sometimes not happens come into the profession or the lasts approximately twenty years? So when I first gained in that worked at a large regional coun- firm it so happened that at that time, they had just doubted the new technologies many of them around tax preparation things like that. But. It was only one or two years of marriage. One eight didn't have any of this technology that meeting that means the tax return, but relation was just one or two years Ramirez from where I haven't done by hand. So it's been around the worst based technology is nice evening. As are aware of that. The interesting thing is available for such a long time. But the next to look at what's many auction. Well, if you look at the anti-smoking CAS from the date for firms announcing sole practitioner, you'll see you still have. Arguably majority of zoo haven't fully adopted the capabilities that are available unless they have something. I think you haven't adopted the majority of full spectrum CBS, we'll see who's on it. I've talked to people who are really other finger on also decided thing. So really we have capabilities that are something that's developed cloudy. Serena that's on twenty years ago. They're still whole lot wanted to be adopted around that, and that's really, disrupt. The because you have. You have the bottle when even had software coming into being in the first place often locally based at you had really expensive. You know, a contracts supplier and to install it the new upgrades as well. As service macho main Sachar note throughout the year, and he's the Eric's now talk about reduced reducing niece calls to really quick marginal securities, and you'll have to worry about any upgrades or anything. It's all taken care of the whole thing. So, but you know, with said still all things kind of digital versions of the principles of carrying the analog vote principles of accounting that hospital in English five hundred years ago. The following campaign. You know, as as noted by the of the book. Published? Nice called the father her verse getting credit, invented it's more like in my mind. He's actually distinguished willing. Observed that bliss Blissett merchants were to me already principle existed. It was the first versus observance. Anyway, we roll for five hundred years and even with call based Karen, we still have essentially version of of his former selves now while she we have. But I I read at one of Asian and five hundred years national disrupt the wedding before. So one of those things as. That we now have. The mutability that talked about before with the bitcoin Niger, which means one version. So my mind this is August accounts. That's tat one version of the truth. CB's constantly dealing with multiple versions of the different ledgers and so forth. You know, every entity has to maintain their own ledger than their own version of facts are James's if you will. And then you got the differences between always ledgers rather than potentially out one ledger that can be shared or series of ledgers share among different parties. Very varying levels of transparency were really have one version of the truth than a lot of the times that reconciles that's one of the big things that accounts do and even in the securities he'll as well, securing this Raton silencing the settlement and selling for. So there's a lot of billions of dollars on reconciliation in securities markets can only imagine it you. Figured out. What exactly of reconcile Melling of all tasks that you know, counts the invasion exit now eliminate Zion exist you reconcile because she somebody's got a record over here. And you got a record over there. And yet by Consolidated's it so he can eliminate that as usual, but really being able to have something this needle meeting. It can't be altered by fallen someone worth power. That is really quite amazing. So that's why I think bitcoin is beautifully layer. And may say later, maybe other of lashings surpass that layer. Maybe a combination of now, but it's exciting world. We're moving into talking of moving into an exciting world looking at the crypto market itself. Right now, they've been dramatic peaks Trump's highs and lows in the value of cryptocurrency. So what are your thoughts on? On how things are in the crypto market right now. I'm personally long on watching -nology crypto currencies. So when I say long, I mean, long long-term minutes sensual and long in almost every every word, and I'm also a cryptocurrency investor is as we'll get to believe that it's very experiential. You can't really understand must use it. So having used it quite a bit. And having vested in price. The value is about us in my mind. You know, it's the barrel of this liquid stands for is disrupted. Tangible battles stuff movies may that's but I'm long on anything out of the value of prices are a senior go down and. Exuberance in there that led up to the January the euro. But I think that you know, long term it's going to swing to even out. There was a notable affirmative the manager. I can't get what the guys name, but this was an art wing. Skiing witness. He actually program a one million dollar bet that the Cretan hurts market without form the SEC over the next ten years, and he came up with that. Because there was a famous Warren Buffett that actually in eighteen zero Warren Buffett's bet was greeted in two thousand eight it was similar where he said of the essence were more. I'm not sure what the other side of the equation. Let's say it was gross stocks, or you know, he was never wanted to get into the the dot com bubble because he never got anything. He did not share. So anyway, famous that he said, the, yes, the outperform whatever the other side of the equation was, of course, you won that. And that that descendants eighteen so this guy's naked similar that saying, hey, girl, the naysayers out there a million that wants to general was Dayton on this that. Mark. Well from yesterday. He's actually more on the line for the number of naysayers out there, you should make a hundred dollars. But anyway, without me said, it's really waited interesting year, you go dynamic it didn't exist before Fiat role meeting at USDA rich nouns euros of the world where you got these other assets that really take on the nature of many different things on the nature of medium of extremes like dollars data on the nature of the store value, which could be more like of gently securities. Zora value, but via doesn't really appreciate sort value. Means he store something at maintain these valley. That's what's here is. So it takes are major aspects can be also this deserted Imani to the security could be a new gene could be all these things Zing Dr. So what happens is then that also creates in many cases in many countries, you have the you have a capital is create or catalogues pitching outta value. Not yet seller to use something worse spit Robbins, Nassar's whatever it is that could trigger a gain a loss. She'd Nelson Carson tax liabilities. Basically Ignat calling crypto sleaze play at the end of the day. So we see many different clients you or get a call in their own unique sees lay for whatever reason that is or whatever they done allowed us to do with the. From the highs of January referred to the lows now, perhaps not understanding how things are tax and finding out at a later time or any number of reasons. So which way here is that? Always reiterate over again that ASEAN research in orders indicate that CPA's of the message process profession, while all professionals that is really he Jassat that we have as SEPA's account soldiers. So with that, you know, we have the ability to provide advice as it is to all these startups out there that struggle. So I mean, there's businesses struggle for other reasons as well right outside though, anyway, botchy outside balking sees that are a struggle CB's yet. Dudes who provide the license weather the storm. So my point is even CPA's Blockchain's segment does their heroin adjusted by making bring value, right? That these folks can say, look, you know, we're in rough stormy seas right now. No, can you help us out? So that's just a thing that I want to see. Vs realizes proposes specially now that the states already really want to figure out how to get into you already got the basis we're getting into you've already got that trusted. Now, you proposition ninety designed at zero locking when it comes to professions. Those illegal accounting and other it really doesn't matter economics because when the times are you still need advice. Sometimes a great device so CPA of you to economic AMAN get started essentially because they're ready further down the road as you say, perhaps many of them realize it is that expertise and that status as a trusted professional which provides them with a great place to start. And then once they do get started the road ahead, look like, and that's not always clear when it comes to innovative technologies when it comes to something like bitcoin blockchain. Chain. And even if the road ahead does seem to make sense. You're never quite sure what the destination will be. And this goes back to those questions that CPA's do need to ask that professional skepticism. We spoke about earlier there. Definitely some bitcoin. Crypto naysayers out they who are quite skeptical. So you have to say to them. What I would say it's really down to a simple thing is that I think folks just enough four hours later browse at all the paradigms prevents from standing it. So I have a favorite quote that I put in my book in my in my opening. Opening chapter. And it says that this is often Sinclair, right? So it's starting to get a man's understand something when his salary pens on. You're not understanding that perfectly plies stay. So if you got the economists that perhaps dedicated or full life thirty thirty five years to letting about economics in certain way, this is like, well, maybe this completely. Change the way that everything's on in the way you thought about economics economics. So you know, it it really prevents people. I think a lot gazes in various industries in advancing economic and so on. You know, scary markets confronts people and associated said of actually saying, hey, while you know, what I mean this night Tennessee to wants to not understand therefore in a sneak against us though. So. An. Nation. Didn't stand up. Naked teams were thrown physician. It's very difficult say reading one day what else wrong. So that's just the nature their big line. Like, I said as the immutability layer. And it's the back of the executive says, so I mean, I'm seeing it at a new way that. And I've been this. Five years. So I think that, you know, look another point of view on bitcoin is will be with these. So it's not it's not we'll get that's accurate is not trying to be there's going to be other. That's why we have two thousand currencies canyon and thousands of watching because they're all competing to provide something that's a solution zoo of the of of solutions, we have nascent financial markets. There's already solutions that are trying to come up with your these style. Tens of thousands transaction presenting the Quin browse Monday night in the beginning. Not trying to be that now. But what is is is the like, I said suitability rare because it's not just about transaction than leisure not being rewritten which you can actually passions cryptography to put hashing watching risking verified undocking and hasn't been changed. That's our it's not just the financial transaction. The fact that you can prove document hasn't changed about that from. Oliver's? That's why I say the the second is other specifying. Addition to win this. It's worse back on the entire difference is like I said, I think that's something overlook. There's many many things that might mean, they're overlooked here where the value of is underestimated, and so it's gonna be tested on. But on long on the matter and will be looking at similar those commonly overlooked aspects of bitcoin and blockchain in a minute. I just thought I'd take -tunities to remind our listeners. That's they all listening to the destruction podcast. I'm Kyle Hannan from the London office of the NCAA which took into the bitcoin CPA, Kirk Phillips cook looking at what's happening now, what are some practical steps that you'd recommend that would help the affected sectors of profession become better at turning these disruptions into opportunities. What are some of the common things? They may already be overlooking. Some of the things that need to be taken ration- are the existing approaches. She were have anyway seat knees are now we have to have against Gatien on annual or buying basis education, really big part of the profession, and that's one of the battles of understanding cryptocurrencies lodgings -nology education education as Gatien I think Stephen Kobe's the law of arm principle. And this is where he lands. So nurture the forum whatever crops you out many ground. You can't cram that you can't do the where you can't speed it up is this. You can't Crandall farm. And that's in my mind, when it comes to education is you really can't cram for it's a new paradigm that you really can't compare anything exists. And I thought she got this comes on by the way to go to the previous point, by the way dates up one people Lachine space, or whatever number you wanna pick everything got advising have hours before. That's the books are somebody asked me about. Hey, should we do bitcoin mining in by computer, the invest money in that? And I was like no thinking about about you get your fat street while the later noting Zakim so anybody scouted this because it's such a new paradigm. And that's when Hal you overcome skepticism. Hopefully, you do so that's why you can't just cramp to this. You not resort every time. So that's why it's mustn't were to starting out. Educating yourself light listening to these podcasts by going to. To the some of the the new sites for going to conferences do. SEPA's at really become a become a us is you have to. I think you have to experience very experiential Sonali educate, but you have to go uses acknowledging so that set while it's you know, exchange it nails Reagan vise over the earthy end transactions that actually use it. So when he gets the clients, you don't wanna have them ask you. Hey, you have you ever used it? You said, no. And you're claiming that you're now we know you have a new practice area your firm brass and you can't really use the before. I look to of course, networking Gail any conferences that stuff that we already do. Well, but you know, you can narrow down to networking in the conferences known specific dollars. So starting now's really keeping its once in a lifetime opportunity. Absolutely. No question. So I'm getting a strong sense that it's not so much when you start. It's the. Fact that you start that's the most important thing. Yes, it is jumping but keep your eyes open. Now, we understand that with every plateful possible rewards comes. Definite side. Order of risk does a finance professional need to start looking at pros and comes in the same way that they always have is it time to be looking at the pluses and minuses of bitcoin blockchain in a different way. How important is understanding risk in this new landscape, probably these single support thing the dig on you'll hear me talk about all positives? And I can go on for hours about now read I think watching knowledge is. Dentist's could go on. I rather about that. But you'd have to stop and look back in the wearing the CBA you had we not new some risks that we didn't have. That's what days do we that? When what really whatever is auditing or accounting see of any of those levels. It's really about assessing risks. We have a integrity objectivity conference, y'all. Right. All those things so objected you've out to assess the risk and Dayton approach to it. So these things are already done in the existing world before lodging. But now what we have is with this on a whole new set of Ritz risks. Holy set of things that happened never happened before. So we know chains lists that the percent that acts. We've got Harf worse. We've got frozen froze. Frozen vines in Wallis. We. These and you may have heard these words nestling sample of one of these things are new they didn't exist before. So now I developed, but they are, but what's steak is higher meaning that in your skates. Neuro what's stains loss of assets? In many cases, we've got several damsels of that. But Perry while we have a hundred and fifty million dollars zero around frozen soul today, the Dow hack of sixteen I believe it is that was. Zero nine dollars where many examples where we got. We'll ask them. So that's why understanding these risks is nearing were not just launched nearing her wrists about what has happened. But it's important. Maybe maybe even more or to cheat already happened understanding the risks. They're projecting those resilience. That's a message that I'd like to talk about over and over again, it's more important in this technology on this date the rest, that's what it worthy a CPA or of your accounts going to provide massive value. In addition to everything else in addition didn't trust, but really being able to dissipate in the space in what you again, it's a spate wrestling less lot. You are constantly getting yourself. You are experiencing a user like decided to use it as long on. So whether you have the rescuers because the risk, insecurity responsibility custody not in every case. But in the essence of. Bitcoin and other similar to hers all those things shift in the news where it is in the existing bottle with third party financial institutions now also know that the risk is there two thousand eight you now have the ability to manage assets that we never had that before. But with that comes also the risk of loss and so forth. That's Wednesday, very high. That's news. And that's why we can have value. Tremendous. You've been talking about looking at heads and understanding how to anticipate things which is something that the profession has always been particularly good at. So let's do some more of that. Let's get ahead of the curve. Ask you to look at your own experience in research. What is that telling you about the kind of things that we need to end -ticipant? What's the next disruption that you see coming to the big change that you see that lies ahead. And does that apply to everyone in the profession? Equally. A sole practitioner team leaders peps heads of enterprise level finance divisions. What's next? How do we prep for that? Yes question. Yes. There is definitely disrupting profession. It's at all levels. Whether it's all rat Titian or your enterprise level, financial leaders CFO's that may impact them all differently, but there has to be measured as option for everyone. When's I can happen in adult now five years ten years one years from shore? We often ends acknowledgee often the short term is overestimated in the long term as unrest. So that being said. What we are heading towards though is we're heading towards a time when we were going to have smoking is Bruce Davis. I mean, this is something that perhaps though that was a seriousness we didn't really have technology. I think to be able to do that will. Now, we do have. That's what we're moving towards than as a single today. We've got money gills that are produced by others that are three months breath. Sometimes they want to not really sometimes by the time, the financials British could need nine months. Maybe earlier, let's say three months with remittance the strategies, no one of the things we talked most eat back with information feedback. I was stale and the in therefore the feedback rowdy was much lower longer time as formation house will what will look like it. We had by incidence that were in rails on that's. A game changer 'cause Nottingham investors. Minor is another new access when angels, and you get you're gonna ask dangerous lending spontaneous has his mind, you know, for those that want to have a access to the by Angeles. That's what about it's going to be accessed, but he has access let's level transparency. But nonetheless, you're gonna be able to have your going to ask for lending and some traditional laws leading you know, it takes weeks to get financing if you can even get from a traditional ender when our actually gonna have offers are gonna be showing up because the fact that you're gonna have information excessive let us the future wrote. But the fact that we're gonna have these spontaneously produce financial statements like I think the Jane project is one it's working on this right now in full closure on on working with them various aspects project, but I'm not aware of another one at square. Taking on or maybe smothers out there. But this is one that's got a lot of promise, and is going to really be amazing when it falls off you're gonna have a decarbonised for which is like a four leaf euro is going to allow to drill down and CD's seep it relation real time basis. Well, when the auditors will be able to provide this real time continuous learning. In some form, or fashion, and this is really a disruption eastern have now not something that's five or ten years up recently needed have now because we really scandal and KPMG scandal from twenty seventeen and when he look at that yet ask yourself, well is the auditing model Roquette is there a monopoly on having the big for essentially ever automatically ninety seven percent of the larger companies and so forth. So we really know winning a gene model now. So for those who aren't familiar with what happened? Let's just contextualize that quickly that did happen in the UK for those who may have heard mention of Caribbean. Can you just summarize why that is so relevant in this context? Yes, really handle is really it's a scandal versions, so we can think back about Enron and some of the others years ago. This is perhaps even more epic Menendez. And this is something that any of the CPA's out there have you know, aren't aware of this. Or the research does launches Oakley will be great documentaries out on this as well. This is epic epic scandal where you have breakdown not only with the auditing firm of regulators sea level management. You didn't actually other other auditors because you'd had KPMG was the financial statement auditor. But then you had. Pricewaterhouse Coopers was the other four the peasant funds as long so there's really an epic right across the border between all the different players. And you're talking about KPMG signing off in somewhere around the first quarter of seventeen signing off saying that one hundred fifty million dollars. Now that might be quarterly profit. I'm not sure but nonetheless signing off on the big number. Essentially, the health nobody in the financial and yet. So once later, we company collapses when he knows where the you know, the scene it was going on. And then come to find out. There was only twenty nine million pounds in cash and cars night, one point three billion pounds. And then you had a few months earlier all of a sudden, it's healthy company. So many look at what the past, you know, and that doesn't even consider the conversation about the two point five or two point nine billion pound shortfall and having a fully funded pension plan. The company was more interested in their own self countries than those of the employees. So we had all the employees patching bond were left hanging attention with no with no magin. So it's really it's really gussie when you when you think about the members of parliament called it a reckless hubris, Hugh, ricin, greens Owens, look at state rebounded, John. So that's why we need the solutions that James law. Oh. You said the word change that's a word which always catches people's attention. So what does this change mean in practice? I mean, how far will this change this innovation? Go how for example, will the oldest is role change in this new future? Well, we have a new world where again, referring back yard Jeanne project rewind to have the others able to engage in independent validation Bennett that station, and I say, so, you know, so, sir. Does asian. That's this is really it really takes rapper head around when you think about so we may have a case where the authors become minors minors talking about like, bitcoin miners and other lock jeans minors, secure the network, and therefore all rewarded from for the security, but receiving token as compensation secure is not where notes can relate transactions were secure the model where the secured operator would be required to asset state, which would be took at state, for example, oughta gene has UD t to so could be something that will be put state run on that node, so basically others because can come cert- your no out cigarette out Ray, or so they are keeping the strengthen our network operating because you have a financial commitment at state and also wanted state that means you have. Risked loss if you did not play on roles at work. So, you know, we're gonna have a case of where you got information farm, the sort of the all the way through these financial statements, and you got a lot of places through to get near existing software Fanduls zone where the idea is days. No make hop. Let's say on comics hoppers hash hashes way. They're finding away way. This is all scans actually this way. You can log in any account, which you weren't let's say twenty four hours a day from the viewer. I think it's going to be aware. The can just do at the station wherever works remember, not beholden to billings, office client begging for information. They don't get mass over over. Again. We're going to be able to have it on your answer, which I think is huge breakthrough. So it's gonna be a increase in value proposition here and elimination of non value added services. I think one the proposed this conversation as possible where the where the. Talked about one to one ratio hang the color directly. We're house. We did day where you have owners actually, providing the station where even knowing what the entity is providing access station, or that's my future. Prediction -sition is far out there. But I think that's possible fascinating. Now, let's talk about you'll book because I know that you're an author as well. Which is something that we did mentioned at the beginning. Tell us why you've decided that a book was the thing to write when Shirley these days information that people need is surely sitting online in the cloud. Why why was this the right thing to do? Yes. Greg question. Well, I a alluded to reason for but it was about Jan Warren of five years. Jan was late were, gene. And a colleague friend said, hey, Kirk masters, vice sure, hey, should we? Have you heard about bitcoin? No haven't heard about it look into now, we wanna know about by some money with and so he can make some money. Of course, my skeptical mine, you know, in the background by saying, you don't know about you better get you back strain. And really I was like, okay, sure. I'll get back to you. I want ended up going down the bitcoin watching cryptocurrency route typical sorted you'll hear from folks. And then a way down a row what as result two years later, finish the book, and that was my answering questions. So someone motivated to do about project. I guess over the years, and it was just it was just really what happened that writing the boat. Now, the byproduct of that is that I wouldn't have taken the approach to go down to all of that research would have been no other thing like date on that would have had me go down the rabbit hole to the deaths of of researching for us. Oh, you know, power using. I did it wasn't that. So maybe there one day, but certainly not in the spirit. It's so the near four that's one thing. Leads to another practice noise. Other things mentioned. So isn't exciting time. I love innovation. I love also educated. That's really part of book is my original tension was the translator really between the two universes latching universe and the university. I mean here we are today, you know, on translating now. So it's kinda like that was original intention here is near Ville of sheets, all of our casts full anyone who wants to understand not so much the nation disruption that the opportunities that could provide in the future. Where would you suggest that they go online to find out more about this topic in general, and of course, about your work in particular? Right. Well, we have a website. That's the bitcoin CBA dot com. We're letting to be revamping villa late visionary. Translator may need to university. His and two trusted source for CB's accounts. May that are them, you know, one of your own kind of speak. So. CBA authored watching most worse day, our rebroadcasting Valez of Aleve of putting on a road show. So the inverse in courses are rate way to really a network and sentences here nation s you've needed also putting out additional courses on twenty nineteen roadmaps. That's something to look out for you. Also coined us that count and bitcoin dot com or good pure lodging, Hersey news resource sites among the resources there. There's other other sites that are dedicated solely to because. Well, those are good resources one of my longtime favorites less bitcoin is podcast or vice six years that kids it's obvious space with us. These are all things I used to gate myself along the way. So the euro discontinue the processes are now, and how do people look for you online. What hashtags or profound names do? They look for you on the well by using the same handle so Twitter handle aggravate when Zeev yet. That's a that's the website emails. So you can go to go up site connect. There were also at the big Quincy on Twitter grace now that takes us to the end of a conversation that does you said could go on and on because this technology's going to be with us fulfill future. So in the time, we have left. What is one simple message you'd like to leave for accounting and finance professionals that will help them to go beyond disruption. I just want to reiterate a message that I said before which is that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Now someone way to argue that the dawning of the internet from twenty twenty five. Years ago once in a lifetime opportunity, I wouldn't dispute that so perhaps if you're lucky enough we have to a lifetime opportunities in one lifetime somewhat missed the. Internet opportunity says needing very early early as so unfortunates the year from what I think is would select time down when I say that for many many different the al-nusra anybody really especially in a CBS rail. Absolutely. May different ways. Does a statement holds true? It's a while to get traction. But under the many of the larger firms, and and the next year now mid mid tier firms of all about Laci in practice now with some former fashion I be surprised find out if there was any in that in that round that that had developed a botchy bronchitis. So and lacerations -nology the league should be really easy for you. Wrap. Some folks are you near conceded there near the end of the area, and they don't really want to make a change. You know, that's fine. Anybody this younger or anywhere in the middle of their career the half day notice of it because it's just going to be something eventually going to is gonna hit. So I think the thing is just continuing to learn use it experience the networking educating and even begin to clear path at the current moment as where this is gonna go as long as if you have a passionate interest. You just gotta go for now. And what will happen is actually the opportunity in the rewards and so forth. Low just reveal themselves to. Bitcoin CPI Kirk Phillips Kirk. There is lots more to explore around blockchain and bitcoin. So we'll make sure our show notes and links to all of the resources that we have mentioned, and as mentioned to there are couple of websites that listeners interested in taking this further would be well recommended to visit and they may already be on your browser bookmarks list. If you're a member, you may already be using one all the other of these websites, depending on where you are in the world. AICPA store dot com or CJ store dot com. Just go to air CPA's dot com slash Gobi disruption or CG store dot com slash go beyond disruption. That's where you'll find courses. Webinars and more professional development resources that are consistently updated to keep you head of the curve for exclusive insights and perspectives every week you can get latest episodes of the podcast wherever you already get your punk costs or your music. So that's apple podcast, Google podcast. Iheart radio Stitcher Spotify tune in Radio Free compete automatic. Just tap these subscribe follow buttons on your podcast app online. We can also go online and search for go beyond disruption podcast. You can even say to your smart assistant. Hey, blah, blah, blah, pay the latest episode of the podcast, and it will do it. So which ever path you take we hoped? Once you get you get something useful from this episode from every episode of the Gobi on disruption podcast. If you do go ahead and share them with someone in your network. Could enjoy them to I'm Kyle Hammon? And we'll be back soon. With more insights that help you and your profession to go beyond his Russian until next time. 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Bouncing Back? Yeah, Right. A Real Look at Resilience

The Indigo Podcast

57:29 min | Last month

Bouncing Back? Yeah, Right. A Real Look at Resilience

"Welcome to the indigo. Podcast and exploration of human flourishing at work in beyond i'm ben baron of indigo anchor and cleveland state university. And i'm for seven of indigo anchor for more information. Please visit us at. Www dot indigo podcasts. dot com. All right so today. We're gonna take a real look at resilience. This is a word that has been used misused so we are going to explain it. We're going to dig into the literature on resilience and provide some actionable ways in which people can use resilience and perhaps become a little bit more. Resilient themselves yeah. So i there's real research on this and i don't know why in something that's so important to our lives as humans in a real world Why they get these little platitude two paragraphs articles in forbes fast company or whatever hint and so we're gonna take a deep dive bent so let let's talk about what is resilience and another term that we're gonna use bring up here as hardiness. So what is resilience and hardiness What are they. Why do they matter. Yeah so let's start with resilience. And i'd like to start by saying that it's not simply about bouncing back you know. This is the way it's oftentimes defined at least in the the popular literature is hey. Resilience is about getting over things. It's about picking yourself up. When go wrong and i suppose that maybe is a little part of it but i think it's much more complex about it complex hepatic and i one. I like to think about resilience and this is congruent with. The literature is about moving through adversity and being able to cope with it in a productive way. You know these things that happen to us be at tragedy be at some sort of adversity. I don't think you necessarily just you know bounce back from them and move on from them. I think what you do. Oftentimes is that you pick up pieces of that. It becomes part of who you are and you learn from them and you can either use those experiences to strengthen yourself eventually or they can actually be harmful for you so You know resilience is really about using good coping strategies. It's about also having the support. You need to be able to recover when things happen so you know. That's just a little bit about how i think about resilience. Yeah i mean. I think we've all known somebody that's gone through a bad breakup either with a company that they loved whoops got fired how that helps more or a break up with like a romantic partner or a divorce or something Bouncing back almost implies. Okay now back you know. I'm not letting this affecting now. This stuff affects us. And it's important that we learn the right lessons especially if you're dating right man. Why do i keep meeting the wrong people. Why do i keep well. Maybe maybe you numskull. You didn't learn the right lessons the first time. Yeah that's true so some of the research that we're gonna pull from today. One one piece includes a chapter that i wrote a couple years ago for the encyclopaedia for industrial organizational psychology and logical resilience. And you know part of what. I wrote in that article which is interesting to read back on right. It's interesting to read little pieces of that article. 'cause i wrote that you know in two thousand sixteen and it was before i you know. I've been through various types of adversity in my life. But certainly nothing compares with the loss of my son last november Twenty twenty and so thinking about in that context and having now instill going through all of the repercussions of that is interesting for me. at least from an intellectual standpoint. But you know what i wrote in. That is that psychological. Resilience is a person's capacity to maintain a relatively stable equilibrium in the face of adversity. And think it's important to recognize that it's about the relative stability like these things are really going to affect you you. You may experience something that sends you to the depths but the difference is that i think if you have a level of psychological resilience you don't get thrown into despair as long as you might if you didn't have that resilience you may have. You have the the the coping techniques to ways of thinking the support you need to eventually move forward through that type of experience. Yeah ed and. I think it's important to acknowledge that people do have a breaking point. Now you can have situations in life that exceed your ability to cope or tolerate or you know whatever and you may get mud all over your face in the trenches down. Don't think you can get up. But that's okay you can go to the lowest low and you can even take a pause. I've seen people that just walked out of jobs just walked out and just kept walking and then like a year and a half later they kinda resurface will. Where'd you go ahead. I just i went. It is but the thing is no matter how deep dark matter all the hope and stuff you lose you can get back up and when you get back up it's important to learn the right lessons and become you know adaptive in a positive way rather than adaptive in a negative way you know negative way might be hanging out with people again I will never date anyone ever again. I'm just going to be a he man woman hater guy hater. Whatever you know that those aren't you're actually picking up a neither negative habit. That's not gonna help you recover and you know if you're going through a bunch of stuff that needs resilience believe me you want the lightest load- loaded backpack that you can carry you know through that process right right. I think a piece of resilience also is avoiding some of the the coping behaviors that we know our negative. So it's interesting. The research on stress and copying some coping strategies. Are you know sometimes. Good sometimes not so good so for example venting to a friend like that can be cathartic. It can be Restorative it can be helpful for a person but if you vent all the time first of all you're going to run out of people events who probably and it might be a little bit productive So some coping strategies can kind of go either way. There are some though that we know are pretty not helpful right so the one that comes to mind immediately is substance abuse. You know if you're if you're drinking away your your feelings or using some other substances like that's not going to get you through things for the long term. It may numb you for the short term. But it's not gonna help for the long term so resilience is also about avoiding those types of of activities and coping strategies win things when adversity strikes and the thing is is that you know i think about that movie. I don't know if you ever saw that movie. It's called any given sunday. It was from many years ago Had al pacino in it and he plays this coach of a of a football team and he has a whole lot about the movie except for his locker room speech at he gets down at halftime and he gives his speech and he says you know something like You know as you go through life you lose stuff. And that's part of life and it's how you deal with that. That really matters is essentially. I'm paraphrasing but that's essentially what he says and as i've gotten older. I think that i've realized that. That's you know when you are when you're in your twenties like you just don't know what you don't know i'm sorry you just don't and it's awesome. Yeah that night. I knew i would have kept going. Yeah i i think but having the knowledge and the that you are going to experience tough times in your life no matter how good things are going right now and you'll many people do have things that have gone wrong for them or adversities faced and You know that's where resilience is very important. So maybe we turn our attention now to this idea of hardiness. 'cause i think that's another interesting concept that's related to this idea of resilience and this was a new one for me. Then i mean yeah. I know the term. But you actually. I mean this was in the article that you wrote and like you define it as having an holding onto deep purpose and meaning in your life. Yeah yeah no. This is an interesting concept. And it sometimes is characterized as a personality characteristic. I you know. Some people may quibble with that. Because you probably could gain some hardiness along the way. It may not be a fixed trait that we have but hardiness is another related concept that says you know when we have deep purpose or meaning in our lives and we hold onto those Deeply when things happen to us we are still mood by that. Meaning that purpose and therefore adversity doesn't affect us as deeply or doesn't plunge us into despair as it might if we didn't have that purpose and meaning Know we've referenced on this podcast many times. The book man's search for meaning by viktor frankl and it's fantastic book. And i think that there's a lot of hardiness in that book because he talks about his experiences in the concentration camps during world war two and Still being able to hold onto meaning and still being able to find purpose in his daily existence even in that abyss of horror that that certainly existed around him so when we have purpose and meaning that that can help us be resilient yeah single moms come to mind here. They they have so much purpose and meaning in relation to how they raise their kids and helping their kids get out and launched. Then i've seen some of the most here roic things i've ever seen in life. We're actually not overseas in afghanistan or something like that but the everyday heroism of single mothers raising children and the level of you know setbacks. And i mean they're tough. Don't mess with single moms. Know they will break you. And it's amazing and it's at says having a reason for living and that's really important so if you wanted to start with why a lot sign or something getting getting into some kind of purpose for what you're doing to ceo. Yesterday actually. and i said other than making money and just staying open another year like what. What are you trying to do. What my companies. I know as you as an individual and ceo and she starting to embark on this journey of weight. You know i just kind of fell into this thing and now i have this company and it's doing all right and you know i'm just never sat the said like what what is my unique offering to the broader world. That's outside myself which is and we'll get to that in a minute but contributing to the world is one of those things that helps you build meaning and resilience and when you have that when you have that clarity around your purpose and what type of meaning you attached to things it you to to move through adversity better you know. There's there's some good case studies actually one of the the researchers who has done a lot on harness has names paul barton and he is an article talks about You know soldiers who are in combat and and Being able to move through tough times by the leader of that group gave them This particular mission and purpose and really explained the meaning behind it and they were all able to rally around that So i think that's that's just a really powerful concept now. Unfortunately i think a lot of people don't realize that they need to have purpose and meaning in their lives until they face some sort of adversity or until they're a little bit. I would strongly advocate for. And i could think there are many benefits to thinking about these types of ideas much on talking about having purpose of meeting with your children You know using your time as a as you're growing up so to speak to figure these things out because that will help you. Yeah you can help people you know if you went through a really hard time and you're like man this stinks. You can help. People go through their hard times easier by sharing with them. How to increase the resilience and hardiness. That's especially if you have kids or young people that you care about. Starting this journey when they are young is important. It's important for our organizations right so you know and it's not. Let's quick have resilient employees so we don't have to fix bad management methodologies or something that's not the right answer either but you know. Sometimes you need people to stick with a small business. Owner losing critical key staff can be really hard and launching something that small and making it big is also really hard having employees that have those mental health skills coping skills that are resilient and hardy are going to help them stick with you our country. Our world needs people who do hard things. That's gonna require resilient hardy people and so it's it's like having a minor leagues should all start this with people everywhere passing those skills on so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you hit a bump on the right. I just want to key in on one thing that you just said. Is that if you don't feel like you have purpose and meaning find some people or a group of people and help them there. You go you can use that as your purpose and meaning for right now as you figure things out. You can't go wrong with helping other people in my view. These ideas of resilience and hardiness. I think they really matter for a variety of reasons. One being that we all at some point in our lives for the most part unless you actually are person who dies very young you. We all experienced death around us with you. Know our family members our friends right. This happens We all experience adversity in our lives at some point if you think things are going great right now and you haven't had much adversity. I guarantee you something will happen at some point. So that's one reason that we all need brazilians. We all need hardiness. But i i think we also need it just because we live in a changing world. We need to be able to adapt and life is simply better when you have at least some level of resilience and are able to cope with the change in adversity around you so even if that life was served to on a golden platter learning these skills helps you help and so like the start talking about some organization so this is where a lot in the business literature. They talk about resilience and really. I see it bandied about as well. We do really bad at communicating to our employees. What's going on so we're just gonna require them to just suck it up. Buttercup no matter what better yeah. This is kind of that idea. I think sometimes organizations are like we just want people who bounce back because we screw stuff up all the time you know so. It's kinda why this is why you're kinda joking around saying oh bouncing. Back is for losers. That's you know that's not what we really mean by resilience resilience much deeper than that. And you know you're right. Sometimes organizations are like hey Can you teach my employees how to be super resilient and you know because if we do that then we can just throw all kinds of change atom and we can have a bunch of crappy leaders and guess what they'll deal with it and you know what. Hey if they're resilient then we don't have to feel bad about laying them off so it's great but they get they can bounce back and that's just the wrong way to be thinking about it it's it's shortsighted and i just think morally bereft so But at the same time. Organizations can really benefit from having resilient hardy employee's Because they are they are your organization. They will help your organization overall deal with adversity in change. So i think it really. You're the motive of the the senior executive of the leader of the organization. Really matters here in terms of do you actually want people to thrive and flourish or you're just trying to suck more life out of them right. One of the things org struggle with that we deal with a lot is while this person really doesn't have room to promote and move up And yet we're having a hard time with engagement right. I you know. Hey look bill you just keep doing the same job you're doing and you'll have a job here for forty years But you're not really going to go anywhere Well one of the things because the pushback will get as well as it really appropriate for us as an organization to teach about resilience as it appropriate for us to do because he's aren't job related skills. A lot of the training tends to be. Well how can we get bob to make widgets better or you know sarah to be a better manager or whatever that is because it's very specific but turning your organization into a group of lifelong learners carving out some time for people to have either on their own time good resources sessions. Google does lunch and learns all the time where they just bring people to talk on interesting stuff. This the this develops thriving growing working populace which is good because these people are in our communities throughout our religious institutions They may sit on your jury for a trial of some sort and then to just say oh well do this all this self development in your free time at home look how much how much time the companies eat up their employees lives. It's like hey you're on the internet. News like yeah. I had to pay a bill on on the web in the middle of the day. That's just what are working stuff. We don't have one spouse at home doing all the social planning and all that stuff and then one working steph. That has to work in the morning comes home and eat steadier and goes to bed. That's not the case anymore. Right you know and some organizations actually care about their people. In terms of caring about their wellbeing valuing their contributions other organizations to just give that lip-service staying up those org stink those were organization stink That's the that's the scholarly term. We give them they stink so you know other organizations come up with creative ways to actually show that they care about people. I when i came across you know. Google is an interesting company. People love to talk about google. And you know. I i think They're they're good parts and bad parts of google. I think like any organization but one interesting thing that they do is they actually have a A policy that laszlo bock he was the first Head of people operations there was this title. And he's moved on from google since then but he did all kinds of interesting things with their kind of their. Hr what they call people operations and he had an initiative that i believe still continues to this day. Where if any employees of google is they pay the That person's next of kin half of that person's salary for a decade after the person died. And you know. I think that's that's the ties in his idea of resilience and hardiness because it shows that organization cares about their employees At least with that example of it you know. I'll say that. You know when when vincent died heart of the strength and resilience that me and my family were able to have came from our organizations it came from you know my the leadership at cleveland state university. And all my colleagues there. It came from You know my connections and and coworkers and supervisors and everyone else that i know through the united states navy and Our organizations play a role in this idea of resilience and hardiness. They really do. And we'll talk about this year two little bit. But you know one thing. I i've come to realize even more acutely i think in the past four months is that resilience is a team sport. Resilience is not just an individual psychological characteristic. That we either have or don't short so let's talk about those individual factors and even some environmental factors that influence resilience and hardiness. So you know. One of them are cognitive. Factors like this is just you know some people just in the brain. The way they're wired are just more resilient than others right. Yeah well and it may be the way. They're wired but it also has to do with the ways in which you think and you can with practice and persistence changed the way you think to some degree. So the characteristic of hardiness we talked about this before. This is a cognitive factor. That influences our resilience if you have deep purple meaning in your life if you can find meaning in the adverse event itself right. Sometimes things happen to us that we cannot understand in terms of the meaning that that event itself had tragedies occur but in the aftermath of those events we can construct meaning. We can make it something that becomes meaningful and so that that's an aspect of hardiness Another one is an interesting kind of cognitive factor. Which is what we call internal and external locus of control. Yeah this is probably the number one thing mentioned in most of the literature so which it has some caveats to it so somewhat personality driven you know whether or not you view the world. But it's the idea of. I'm responsible and can shape my future or i'm a victim of external events so if you have an external locus of control your your viewing well. Nothing's in my control. I don't have any influence. I can't shape things and sometimes that's the case If your business you know was destroyed by the covid pandemic well. You know that that was know. That's a problem with how people think about this idea of you. Know there are some external factors that you can't shape and accepting those and being okay with that. Not blaming yourself is an important piece of that. Now that being said for people who have a more internal locus. It's the idea of. I can shape my future now. Can you shape one hundred percent of your like. It doesn't matter how much i work out. Or whatever i'm never gonna dunk jordan more. Kobe bryant. I don't know i. I had i had to break into my My son wants that he Was never going to be lebron james. Even though he he wanted to be when he grew up. You're right But so some things are outside of our control and you know when things happen to us even if we maybe don't have that tendency or that natural default style to to take action and to see things as being shaped by our own Efforts you can give yourself some of what we call agency the ability to affect things in the middle of adversity. Identify those little things that you can control and And focus on them right i. It's funny. I just thought of interesting example of this so you know when when we go through training in the military for how to behave and what we need to do in situations where maybe for captured by the enemy right and we are. Were you know you're a prisoner of war. That's a very trying circumstance obviously But you know. I'm not gonna go into all the details but there are a variety of things that we have learned from people who have gone through that that help and a big thing of like finals. You can control stay organized start to assign roles and responsibilities to people You know take care of each other. Check in on each other Schedule all these different things that help you give help. Give you a sense of control over your environment That can help you. Psychologically and and there are things you can shape the minute. you think. you can't shape. There is something so if you're struggling with what can i control. You might need to go find a battle buddy of life and call one of your friends. And say hey. What are some things. I can control right now for me. That might be. Why don't you give away half of your baked goods binge baking that you've been doing during this pandemic rather than eating them yourself. You know you could probably just post Maybe on facebook group that you're giving away some free goodies and just put about side your door come get them So absolutely are always so. There's always something you can control. And depending on the level of severity of something. You're facing you know. Sometimes the the phrase is you know one day at a time and i think that that's a good way to think about things. Sometimes it might be one hour at a time or one minute at a time and even that can start to give you a sense of agency and can start to help you Move forward with meaning and purpose With regard to your situation yeah so if you were a buggy. Whip manufacturer and the buggy whip industry took a big hit. Then you have a lot of your identity tied up in being the best. Gosh darn buggy whip maker ever you know and they don't even spank kids in schools anymore. So you can't diversify your pitch you know and the civil war reenactor is only by six a year. You know the these kinds of things that you can take a hit right. That's an external item. There's a market change. They no longer have it demand for your product. You may need to take a little while to grieve that loss right and then one of the things that you can do deering that time as what we call affective strategies and that's doing stuff that leads to positive emotions so don't just sit in the depression all day schedule some time. Even if it's just an hour a day to focus on some positive emotions now you could do stuff like meditation. If you've got the gumption to go you know do some kind of sports maybe some. You know you're working on your run time or you're playing soccers something One of the things that this is not in the literature. But i this leads to positive emotions for me is. I love the internet videos. I think there is some aspect of some research support for the use of humor right in psychological resilience so if the internet videos give that to you Then perhaps that is a good technique for you These things that lead to more positive emotions can help us. Think better can help us Have some a positive outlook on the future Taking care of yourself physically in terms of eating healthy Getting some exercise and having good relationships with other people those are all aspects of what we would call effective strategies. Things that lead to positive emotions One thing i do want to mention we skipped over one cognitive strategy. And that's that's why we call appraisal appraisal has to do with looking at a situation and reframing it in different way making it a situation for you. Psychologically that allows some room for there to be meaning and purpose in a way forward. If you see every bad thing that happens you as the end of the end of your life or the end of your ability to function. That's going to be hard to move now. There may be times where you feel like that right as long as you can with the help of others through some of the things. We're talking about here. Find that way to allow room for meeting a purpose that that can be very helpful. And part of this is how you talk to yourself about whatever's going on so we call self talk. Are you talking to yourself in your inner monologue in a positive way The more that you can try to do that. I think that that is helpful. Yeah so watching. So i live at a neighborhood with a bunch of kids that are round between the ages of like six and twelve and one of the things that i'm noticing around the eight nine year old remains start some of this negative self talk because they're at school or whatever and somebody says man. You really screwed that math test up or somethin' or You can't even play basketball right. Or whatever and then the kids you'll actually hear the kids engage in. I mean ben. Have you heard some of this with your kids. Ever like they actually start trash. Talk themselves right. They'll say like. I'm not good at whatever. Yeah absolutely and it's like gosh. You're you're ten eleven twelve years old. You shouldn't be thinking those types of you're not good at anything your chen. No don't say that that's the case. And and this is weird piece and we see this in consulting engagements in executives. We'll see this same negative you know. I'm new to this. Parental advice adventure. I've got two kids and are six and ten. And and i'm like man. I'm seeing the same stuff in my executives at the kid level. Except they're like little. They're not as adept at some of this stuff. Everybody if you ask anybody. Hey are you good at everything. Oh no so. You don't feel you know bad about it. But anytime somebody has a weakness or like i'm so ashamed. I'm not good at this new task within my organization more. I'm in a new role. And i'm not instantly good at everything here. You know. this is crazy and so self talk needs to be realistic. I'm not good at this yet or just took a punch to the gut and wife career. It is almost impossible to feel negative for your whole life. So there's some of these positive self talk strategies that you need to do barring mental health issues like so if you do have a problem with clinical depression this is something professionals can work with you to help you by refraining like. Hey we're just gonna learn from this one and discover something else you know what buggy whips out. I'm gonna grieve that. But i'm going to do something in my day. I'm gonna watch some chad videos on. Snl or whatever Start bit by bit by bit by bit and it can be hard to see right now because we're over a year and pandemic lockdown. We don't have our normal coping. Strategies are not all available to us at the same time right right you know there are also are some environmental factors that might play a role in your resilience and your capacity for for these things you know having to do with your family of origin you maybe things you need to work through in terms of how you were raised You know you mentioned. I'm just being for example here in in hopefully the ladder ladder months of this pandemic. i hope But sometimes are circumstances beyond our control that you have to deal with and that that can really be challenging And then another one. That i think is really important that i alluded to earlier is the importance of connections that we have with each other You know resilience again is oftentimes about as bouncing back as this kind of stoic individual quality but i gotta tell you that's just not the way it necessarily works there isn't aspect of it that is individual for sure but we do this through and with the people to our left and right. Yeah this is something that you know. Better night eat our own dog food so to speak at a we call it encourage each other. You know before this podcast episode recording started we spent about fifteen minutes checking in Doing a joke and a little bit and and that it's gotta be a team sport. No man is an island or person is an island you know so you know the check in and and this is the thing is some people might say help in the sky with some resilience right now as a real drag. Well you guys can do it in a way that builds both of you up rather than one person. Just taking on the slime of another Build that meaning together. Hey our relationship is getting closer than is relationship has changed over the course of like this pandemic and the traumas that his family's gone through but that doesn't mean it's gotten worse it's just different. We internalize these things and take different lessons away and thanks change in a good way. So let's move to implications for. Why should people care about this. Yes we just. Things are crap you'll need to be resilient and heartache so what you know now now for the so what. Yeah so. I think there are a number of different things that you know. We can't do as people as as leaders and has organizations to help with resilience and heartedness but why it matters is because life is not just a a. You know an easy pass. We will all experienced things at different times as an organization for example or is as a leader. Do you really want to just give up on anybody. Who's going through a tough time for a period or do you want to be by that person and you know by the way. Probably build their loyalty and commitment to use an organization to you a leader if you if you actually are there for them and see them through the other side right So i think just if we want if we want to create the world in which you know the type of world that we want to live in then we should care about this for ourselves and we should care about this for each other. Yeah it's the right thing to do guys it's not. It's not always going to be really nice why this person struggles so they owe me one and al cash in on that later. No that's the evil empire Transactional relationship that's not a relationship so it's baloney this is the right thing to do and to start off this section. Let's say even if you're fallen traumatized anything you can get started now. Small tiny steps. Now there's that is the upside if you're look if you're despondent right now. A need resilience. The upside as you can get started building your resilience now and making your life better right and obviously it's very hard for me to separate this entire topic at all from my own personal experiences in the past several months so when i think back to you know the the the day in the weeks right after The accident with vincent. You know there were there. I had to find those little things that they got. Got me and my family through the day which were okay you know. Let's let's try to maintain some semblance of order in terms of a little bit of a schedule. We're going to be kind to ourselves and let things where they need to be We're also going to let people help us But let's you know. Let's let's make sure we eat today. Make sure we was. Make sure we Are staying hydrated right and these are really important. Thanks let's make sure that we I spend a little bit of time with each other or allow people the room to grieve in their own way in a certain way right So you know you had to try it again. This is not this lot easier said than done but over time being able to move forward with all of the the learning and the experience that you've had You know has to do with breaking out of some of these negative thoughts cycles and And really trying the bet to the best you can to start to You know attach some meaning or purpose to how you are going to live in a new way after something traumatic. Now this this applies. I think just as just as easily and maybe not as dramatic of a fashion to you know the the everyday adversities that we face at work Things that happen to us projects that don't go. Well you know supervisors who are being jerks co workers who are being Not particularly supportive. All those types of things Can be a reason why we need resilience and start on those little things new and you can really can start now. Yeah so our brains can trick us right and one of the ways they trick is catastrophe ising This is horrible. Everything's horrible right and These are called distortions. It's really good. I used to do this with lieutenants in the military and i sometimes do it with executives. I work with as i'll print out a list of common cognitive distortions. That our mind can trick us into thinking you know all or nothing thinking like. Everything's either all good or all bad these stinking thinking right. Our brains will go to this place naturally when we face a trauma or something like that That means your brain's working well right. It's trying to help you save. But you gotta start challenging that one of the self talk items you can do as challenge here all or nothing. Thinking or some of these cognitive distortions catastrophes ing Yes catalyzer fay's happen but everything is not a catastrophe. And you know we talk about this. Re framing the situation. Yeah you know or one of my favorite scriptures and i forget what the verse as Weeping indoors for a night but joy cometh in the morning There there is a joyous morning that will come eventually and it's important that we reframed where we are where we are at now in our journey and move forward productively. Yeah i like that way of thinking about in terms of moving forward productively instead of just bouncing back or moving on right for first of all just a little pro tip other. This is not meant to be a whole episode. Just about grief we. We'll do something on that at some point but you know when when someone has You know loss of a of a loved one when someone's died in someone's family don't talk to them in terms of. Hey you should move on to talk to them about moving forward with you know moving forward with that that person with that you know the person who died and their memory and the meaning that they brought to the world so I think moving forward productively is a great way to think about a lot of things I think back to very early in my career as a navy officer and i had a person who got a an evaluation that wasn't as as stellar as he thought it should be and how it he he really really hit him hard you know and he was like down in the dumps worthwhile and i i eventually just had to say look like you know. This is one of those moments where you have a choice in how you react to this. This is something that you know it. It's so cliche but it is what it is. And you have to choose how you're going to react and are you going to react in a way that is going to further damage the relationships and you know your outlook on life or are you going to try to choose a way to move forward that that actually can bring you You know somewhere more productive. Yeah and so we already talked about on the individual level that he can eat right and work out. I mean that's just setting your baseline you're angry all day. It's hard to beat chipper right. So yeah it's it's very well documented in the research in terms of you know the connection between our mood and our stress levels and what the benefits we get from eating rights getting healthy working out those types of things. So you know in consultation with your doctor and your nutritionist. Do so in a productive way. I encourage that regardless of whether or not you're facing adversity or not if you're not facing adversity great you know a good time to really good healthy so that if you do face adversity you'll at least have that going for ya. Yeah that's baseline. Another baseline is getting out of toxic. Relationships are living situations now. If you're a young person that might be hard but you can. Have you know a view that. Hey this isn't normal or quite right if you're an abusive relationship those kinds of don't go through a traumatic event while you're sitting in something that's a toxic pool of relationship. Nurture the good relationships. Seek those kinds of people out now if you look around in say cheese none of these numskulls are gonna win anywhere or trying to do. You know i'm trying to do something great with my life. Nobody around these doing anything. Make sure at least a portion of the people that are in your life are people that are striving for something good. They can be encouragement. that's why. ceo roundtables are great. They're a place where. Hey i'm trying to do something and business. I'm trying to do something in business. They can lend resilience and support and what can be a lonely role. That's great another thing that we've already talked about. But this is a great implication for individual people is live your values have morals like you're not come across people who just it never occurred to them that they needed to have a moral compass and that gets really problematic especially as you get more senior in an organization because there aren't there's no playbook when you're the ceo necessarily for where the organization needs move strategically and those types of decisions. You're going to have to make so you know gets a meaning and purpose in your life because that will help you with hardiness and will help you be more resilient when adversity strikes. Yeah and a lot of this has to do with being active as an individual. Now yes physically. Active but active in shaping where. You're going right rather than just well. I guess we'll just ride this one out one thing you can do. Actively is set some goals. And make sure they're not unrealistic. The goal for today might be. I'm going to take a shower and put my pants on right. I mean generally people prefer on but identify those small items and work on them right except the stuff. You can't change and you know if if you're walking through the forest and there's a giant tree in your way will you walk around it you you know. You can't go on a hike in the woods. People won't like this with a chainsaw. Just hacking a straight line and some people kind of go into that mode. And they just start hacking hacking. But they're hacking on something that's immovable. Make sure those goals are realistic. And go around those things that you just can't change. Well that's great. You know another thing that we can all do. This goes back to your the idea that you shared about nurturing relationships around you has to do with the connections that we have and you know it's interesting so in the navy we have a we call the navy leader development framework and it's gone through a couple of different iterations and a couple of years ago. They came out with version. Three point out. And what's cool about it. I think is that they you know. Version Two point now had these two different lanes for Developing yourself as a leader they were the lanes of character and competence and those are very important right well in the this three point oh version of the leader development framework from the us navy. They added another one which is connections so they have character competence and connections. And this goes back to that idea that i shared early on that resilience and hardiness is just a an individual thing. It is a team sport. And so the way the navy talks about this. And i'm quoting from the The actual document here is they say Lane three which is connections says develops intellectual personal connections intellectual connections improve competence by sharing mental models. Comparing notes improving our ability to anticipate our teammates next move personal connections strengthened our character and resilience by building relationships. We share what we experience and seek to understand what's going on in others lives not only in mind but in body and spirit as well. Personal connections relationships should certainly expand and deepen within our navy team but and should also include our families. Our friends our churches are health clubs and other communities personal and intellectual connections are essential to achieving the highest levels of performance. And i think that's a a rates Idea regardless of your organization. You know this isn't just about the navy. But you know any organization that really wants people who are healthy and resilient will nurture those types of connections and encouraged people to build them both within their organization and outside have those healthy relationships so that when adversity Faces you that you can move forward productively. Yeah and the fee your emotional and feeling context while you're going through times that need resilience is not a reliable indicator of how you're doing feelings can take a while to catch up so you can act and do your way to a better better emotional status as things get better right. That's great so let's talk now as we start to move down the home stretch about some things. Maybe that leaders should be thinking about with regard to resilience and with regards to hardiness. well things. Is you displaying these skills that increase your you know resilience as important take leading is stressful. Take care of yourself That's right you know going back to Navy examples got a lot of them today. But i recently went through a leadership development program for the navy the navy senior leader seminar. And what was really interesting. It was a week long program but you know as a big component of it. They had a whole wellness piece. Which is about how you deal with stress. How you take care of yourself. Health nutrition fitness. All that kind of stuff because you know what's oftentimes beaten into us. Perhaps in this is especially true may be in really good organizations that hey leaders look out for everybody else and that's true we do look out for everybody else. You should be thinking about yourself in some ways as a servant of others in a leadership capacity at the same time if you do that at the expense of your own health and wellbeing. You're not going to be able to do that very well for the long run and you know this is a this is a marathon not a sprint. So you had to take care of yourself as an individual if you want to be able to take care of others yeah and if you are taking care of yourself then that's going to have a positive impact on your team organizations environments How you lead has an impact. You know we talk tone at the top. That's tony the middle and any level of leadership. And that's going to help the people on your team that don't do resilience very well and that could be from a cognitive factors or you know some people just don't have a whole lot of resilience baked in. Maybe they came from a really traumatic family But if you're displaying these resilient skills if you've made resilience at team sports you can boost the functioning of others and You know that leads to the other piece of if you curate. A positive healthy environment. That doesn't require resilience every day. That's probably pretty good for your company to yeah. You shouldn't be just running from one adversity to another every day in your organization Sometimes that happens if we have true crises that hit us. However you know having a professionally. Managed and led organization should lead to some stability That doesn't require people to be super resilient all the time I think building resilience at training into kind of your regular cadence of team development can be helpful Coaching and being there for others as a leader. It is very helpful. Kind of going back to some of these ideas. We talked about earlier. Don't let your poor leadership be the resilience tests that your team has to go through and then sharing your resilience journey with others. You know One of the things that you know it stinks. You know if you had to develop some resilience. It's not you don't schedule it like a vacation because it's so fun but when you have those pieces you're able to help others and i think it's important for leaders to demonstrate that authenticity in their life around what they're going through. Now i know for ben not only. Is he wicked intelligent and good looking. He has a lot of skills and stuff but now that he's gone through a tragedy he is going to be able to take all of those wonderful mental gifts that he has as an individual and be able to provide them to people who've gone through deep deep traumas And that's something you know lots of times. So hey i've been through it and maybe they don't have that I o site. Phd background and all the character development. That you've done ben and stuff but like you become somebody that'll be uniquely boys you know even globally to help people and if you have those resilience challenges and stuff as leaders. You should not shy away from sharing those things when appropriate and you know use them to help other people the encouraged. It's awfully kind. And i think it's it's insightful to you know i think furthermore because you know i it's also helpful in terms of a weight of reframe the situation right so obviously like you know what i've had to go through my family side to go through in the past several months as has something that i certainly would would have not what i don't want to. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And you know if i could go back in time and not make it happen absolutely. Would you know but looking forward and trying to move forward productively for me. Also involves reframing and trying to attach meaning to how. I'm going to live my life and part of that is as you mentioned like i sound somebody the other day like well. You know what. I want this to become a little bit for me as i want to develop this leadership superpower right that that comes from going through something really traumatic and the things that i've learned in terms of like how to deal with someone who's going through tragedy or how to you know just deal stuff on a regular basis you know in terms of stress management and all those types of things and just having a better understanding of of what people can be going through So that's kind of part of how. I'm reframing things in a way you know. I think another thing that we can do that kind of goes along as idea of sharing a resilience journey with others is. You don't necessarily have to go through Tragedy to to learn some of the skills. Now you don't know what it's like to go through it however learning vicariously through others is helpful. That is a good way for us to imagine ourselves somewhere else and to think about how we might behave and to think about what has worked for other people in those types of situations so that we can have some of those skills releases mindsets to deal with adversity when it does come right and so for organizations. So if you're a person in a position that has organisational remit right. One of the things you can do is incorporate the resilience trainings individuals. You can do certain things if you're a leader manager. There's things that you can do curate an end so if you have like learning and development or you know if you're a ceo or something like that includes some of this resilience and hardiness tight materials into your regular leadership and development stuff Don't let this go unnoticed right. This is a key. Part of of life is a key part of of leading others relationships that we have in our organization so talk about these types of things in in a a an evidence based way also create some policies and procedures. That are supportive to your employees. This is Just key in terms of structure that you can create. That really tells people that you are not only saying that you care about them but you actually do care about them and this could have to do with you know different leave policies. It could have to do with different benefits. Perhaps that you offer your employees But really demonstrate and kind of. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak in terms of. How do we really care about people's wellbeing in this organization. Yeah the tone at the top is also important setting setting that tone of. Hey we're all human sear things happen. Thanks go through. We're not going to try to become the most productive little widgets and you know the perfect employee is the autonomous tom employees. That's not what we're doing here. we're talking about. Hey this is how ethically i want to be in society. This is how deal with resilience and going through those things at humanizes the workplace and feeds and nourishes our soul and you can set that as organizational leaders Just by setting that tone and talking about it yourself. That's great so well said chris. So today on the podcast. We've taken a real look at resilience we've talked about resilience and hardiness and what they are and why they matter. We've talked about some individual and environmental factors that influence resilience and hardiness that we wrapped up with some implications for people leaders and organizations. Thanks for listening to the indigo podcast. If you like this podcast. These consider helping us by rating us on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen telling your friends about us having us on your podcast or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www dot indigo podcasts. Dot com where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again and we look forward to talking with you again soon.

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2124 - Biased: Uncovering The Hidden Prejudice That Shapes What We See w/ Jennifer L. Eberhardt

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

1:15:58 hr | 1 year ago

2124 - Biased: Uncovering The Hidden Prejudice That Shapes What We See w/ Jennifer L. Eberhardt

"You are listening to a free version of the majority of portland sam cedar to support this show and get another fifty minutes daily program majority dot s m please i already rupaul day july second two thousand nineteen my name is sam cedar the five time award winning majority report we're broadcasting live steps from named josh hawley rabbits guana canal in the heartland of america downtown brooklyn usa on the program today professor of psychology stanford university jennifer eberhardt unbiased uncovering the hidden prejudice the shapes what we see think an do also on the program today trump will get his tank suffrage corrupt july fourth celebration and bill bar now given more say over immigration court meanwhile investigation launches into these ten thousand custom border agents who were all on amc racist facebook group meanwhile honduran immigrants dies in ice facility in texas while others tell congress people they are forced to drink from toilet back in capitol hill democrats to finally do get donald trump's tax returns bernie sanders raises eighteen million in small donations q one unexcused acute you leslie think progress is percent all this and more on today's program yes ladies and gentlemen a welcome to this a two day episode of the majority report on this abbreviated week we will not have a show on july fourth maybe it will just have a will just released audio tanks rolling down the streets 'em you'll recall that donald trump is wanna have tanks i think that his inauguration and and then a subsequent july fourth celebrations because he became a namrd with the idea of large military shows have strengthened missiles missiles and whatnot and he saw the north koreans do and maybe i think the best deal day any wants a all sorts of toys in people's saluting at me the other thing to keep in mind with the celebration on july fourth is that they are now using it to as a mechanism to drive fundraising for the republicans now many of you were probably too young to remember lincoln bedroom but lincoln bedroom became popularized by the right i think it was in the nineties now because bill clinton some of bill clinton's top donors spent the night in the lincoln bedroom at the white house has failed end they were allowed to come in in this instance basically tickets are being sold for the sake of republican skin donors directly there's no sort of you're a big campaign contributor come to the white house and visit me it's come to the celebration for money end only from money that will go into republican hands literally leveraging hey an event creating an event we've tax dollars incidentally well will talk more about this 'em after we hear donald trump making announcements i guess about what's gonna happen the fourth fourth of july academic memorial what do you have a great fourth of july in washington dc it'll be like no other it'll be special and health a lot of people come it's gonna be a tough this country under so salute to america and i'm gonna be here i'm gonna say a few words and we're gonna have planes overhead and best fighter jets in the world and other planes to and we're gonna have some tank stationed so i gotta be pretty careful with the jags because the load up the chemistry not like the kerry heavy k so we have to put up in certain areas but we have the brand new sherman tank so we have the brand new april tax and we have a some incredible old equipment military equipment on display brand new and then we're very proud of you know when they get a lot of luke tanks right now with building a lot of times and the lima ohio a great time factories if people want it to flows until i got elected and i stopped it from being closed down in our some very productive facility and then the greatest thing in the world now the idea of us getting enjoy massive land or that's gonna require a whole new fleets of tanks is m pretty hard to imagine but at least we've got a lot of him and now we can show the moffitt parades and just in case you're wondering about this july fourth celebration it's gonna be a lot about america erica one of the things you do trashed the other janai somebody celebration right apologizing for america first of all i'm sorry all right i'll go baker hotdogs you've wiped devils parks department is getting charged for transporting the tanks by the military you know the parks department that's already hurting for funding it's it's just a it's it's grotesque and 'em lightly reminiscent of this track oh boy oh boy oh boy boy good job how long does the job there you go hong kong goes the truck but he adam wreck still almost as trump is trump but i mean this is it's a welcome to the new america and i i just don't i i know there's going to be a ton of people are gonna be out there so i see those a tanks i don't know why we don't have missiles to why you sharing ideas i mean why not i mean look if you offer edible north korean people's liberation army parades they have missiles trump should be in fatigues standing out of out of a limo i oh that would be amazing to watch i would also make leaves you also his ballot flatbed charred bodies just a show like they handiwork of the tanks speaking of which but i guess that's we don't get that to the second term of a trump trump meanwhile the fly some buddies back in many places in the across the world but were killing people meanwhile 'em several congresswoman went down to a in men went to tour some facilities these there's a lot happening on b m migrant concentration camp front we'll talk more about this big propublica story from yesterday that basically undercover a uncovers hey customs and border protection i guess a facebook group made up of former end a existing and border agents who a trade racist means an mark a dead immigrants as well as those in congress who may be supportive of immigrants not being abused in these camps here's an image of one of the camps from above i mean i don't know where where where is this one a brendan this one is metality macallan texas in may twenty fifteen we've reported that a department of homeland security apparently was afraid at that time of potential riots i mean you look at this it's not terribly surprising that's just extrordinary these images are frankly ugly give their rent you know what their reminiscent of is a new orleans after katrina people living in the stadium there but this is not obviously asli eight natural disasters man made one there is a surge of immigrants coming in these 'em detention centers that they're calling them were not designed to hold people for extended periods of time but they have created the circumstance why they have this backlog of people in these places and it came out in a democratic debate we've talked talked about this for a while they have criminalized coming across the border they're separating parents from children 'em in this is what you get they're scaring immigrants from picking up the kids they want these damages out there i'm not convinced but they they do show with the misguided believe that parents who are afraid of their kids being murdered or raped in some of the most violent cities in the world if that's where the kids have to go to be safe that's what they'll do so a couple of a congress people went down there to to tour the facility here's ianna presley she is understand right now she was giving away a press conference an v a the congress people got surrounded by hey i guess people who were cheering on for abusive immigrants i don't know what you would call them counter protesters that of sars herons begets yes she responds directly we back to them you will let's see you're kidding me they that's pretty powerful a stuff exactly right apparently 'em down there it's being reported that a by the new york times national correspondent simon romero that a receded to leave a was there an day a trump heckler was yelling we don't want muslims here i there we don't care about sheree allow we care about jesus christ go care about your own country 'em apparently there's some more video of that 'em we have a video of be a of some of those protesters yelling there i mean good for these i mean frankly i'm not sure why it's taken this long if you recall the first time but somebody basically 'em got up in front of one of these facilities 'em was a a not with jeff merkley senator jeff merkley went down there 'em months and months ago that was wearing my shoulder i just wondering if you guys know what are you doing that patients yelling so there you go so a nice i mean yeah i was i was reminded of reaching this weekend of how like all of this stuff is you know is brewing for years here's particularly in arizona and these these groups of people going out and doing stuff that we still regularly see like pouring out water bottles that were left for migrant rights and example and then that kind of fusing with this conspiracy theory culture in a strategic shift the republican party did not even pretend right like that was the autopsy after two thousand twelve shall we pretend and not be big it right and they decided more effective to just be authentically bigoted it up we will get to a professor eberhardt in just a moment let's say an interview i recorded with her i guess there's about a month ago a now which seems like ages ages ago 'em but wanna remind you we all want a haven place it feels uniquely you or us with joy bar or joy bird you get one of a kind furniture crafted after you're your own unique taste could turn your ideas into reality with hundreds of styles and options they have all sorts of different choices you make you rich buttery leather or the plush it's velvet you've ever felt you wanna so fun aquatic blew a love seat and bubble gum pink they got it if you dream it joy bird could make it a reality they even have a beautiful selection of outdoor sofas allows chairs and tables plus their free personal personal design consultants can help you nailed down your own design joy bird offers a range of kid and pet friendly upholstery options of the year creations stand the test of time i wish both my kids are out of a dead zone now from a saw mostly out of that joe joy bird also offers a range of sorry a best of all thanks there three hundred and sixty five day home trial if you don't love your joy bird you can return it for a full full refund see how joy bird can help you design your dream space find you're joy today at joy bird dot com slash majority you could create the furniture that brings you joy joy bird dot com slash majority go over there now check out this stuff you won't believe the choices you have their ability the cost of all these things you could receive an exclusive offer of twenty five percent off your first order by using the code majority jordy so that joy bird dot com slash majority used the code majority for twenty five percent off all right we're gonna take quick break when we come back will be talking a to jennifer eberhardt heartbeat author of biased we are back sam cedar on the majority report on the phone it's a pleasure to welcome to the program professor of psychology at stanford university winner of the twenty fourteen macarthur genius grant and author of biased uncovering the hidden prejudice that shapes what we see think and do jennifer everhart a welcome to the program thanks for having me so let's just start wiz m v the notion of implicit bias what what do you mean by that well implicit bias or unconscious bias is something that were all gone to a in in my book i'm trying to release show the science behind it in in it's it's it's basically are beliefs in are feelings that we have it that social groups that can influence or decision making the actual even not aware of it so when we say 'em a somewhat has implicit bias against a black people how is that different in in your 'em a sense then racism or or or is that any specific type of racism i'm sorry say that again well it when we talk about when we talk about implicit bias well how is that different from a racism for is it simply eight different type of racism oh i see so so yeah so i think when people think about racism they're thinking about some of people who were filled with hate in a snow people who are kind of like old fashioned a racist what we would call them but but here was this kind of implicit bias or unconscious bias you don't really have to be a ticket to be by as he can have biased and then have real you know negative impact despite you know intentions in spite of desire to be fair okay all right well let's let's talk about some of these 'em the they get the impetus for us some of your work i mean both of you mentioned both your experience as a child end 'em your child's experience when he was quite young why don't we start with we're a your child you start the book 'em when you were on a plane wave i think you're you're you're son who is i think five at that time a tell us about that 'em a that event yes so we were on airplanes flying a back to a california together and he's excited to be on the plane and he looks all around game which is kind of checking the people out and we see the man in the basement that guy looks daddy an i look at the guy and he doesn't look anything at all that's my husband and so that that start looking around at the plane in real life only black man on the plane in so i am about to have have a conversation like if my son about how that all black people look alike in before i could have that conversation don't he looks up at me and he says i hope he doesn't rob the claim you know and so i'm like what what do you mean it you know daddy wouldn't robert clean and he says yeah i know and i said well why would you say that then he said well 'em i don't know why i said that well i don't know why are we thinking so this is a good example of someone who is kind of picking up a note saying some of the world around him when i'm picking that association basically between black missing crime that he doesn't know where he got it from but somehow who's been exposed to wear then he's acting on but what is your sense of where you're son could have picked that up i mean as a i you know i have a a six year old 'em in you know this was i guess it was a decade or so more but we're we're would that at form i mean what's that eight function of of his association i mean is it your sense that what's his son's a sense of his association with blackness or was it his sense of i mean or or was well i mean i think it's it's a function of kind of seen in the world where a you know you hear about 'em notes you kind of at the child you're learning without people so position in society in in to know what kind of police have about certain social groups in a you know as a child is you're trying to figure out like what correlate with what he's trying to think about how people may be 'em reacts to african american men in public spaces and whether they give them a lot of room whether they locked the car doors you know all of those types of things of young children kind of pick up some us a watch we feel in in how they should feel and think about other people in one way i think the media is another way i mean there's a lot of ways but that's that's one way in a let's also talk about a since words the realm of of childhood did your your experience in switching schools i guess it was elementary school or junior high 'em end 'em which you ultimately became i guess maybe in some ways inspiration for some of you work yeah so i grew up a runoff lachlan uber's in cleveland ohio like cancer announced one day they're going to move to a suburban cleveland called beechwood which at the time was almost all white and so i worry about making that move and how i would be accepted and whether i would have spent whether you're like people are gone they're all those to end a like when they get moved by sam at school students were really spend it would really welcoming they want to show me now in all of that but i still have problems making friends and that could be a witness that i could not tell their faces the carts i wasn't i wasn't exposed a white people very much a dan i lifted his neighborhood again that is entirely black so all of my the most meaningful interactions in relationships at ice when we were with other black people hardship leading actually 'em you know to be able to recognize their face it was a little shocked me because they didn't anticipate you know this at all like i never had that kind of problem before but now here i was trying to make fans and i couldn't tell one person somebody other than it actually took me some time to typically over time i was he is a cigarette out but my grain don't need it time to adjust to the new environment and demands that i would know that were placed on me and met with fire went to so over time i was i was able to develop that skill set before then i didn't have an end so subsequent to that obviously 'em you have a there is you've come across research in partaking in research that suggests that this is the phenomena is physiological yes so we've done some research like collaborated with a number of memory specialist at stanford berg in we conducted a normal imaging studies and look at this very issue what scientists call it it'd be other suspect in a basically that people were much better at recognizing the basis of their own way simply says other issues and we want to understand enduro underpinnings of that affect and so we put people in a neuro imaging scanner book black and white study participants and we showed them images of of black and white faces an we looked at what happened you know in in their brain they say were showing these images in the area of the brain carpet she just wants face area it's highly implicated in face processing and so we're really focused on that area and we found that it was that area were much more activated chips is of their own waste into faces of other races now is that strictly 'em may be a biological development what what cannot be cannot be impacted based upon where someone like if if we were to take an image of your brain a prior to switching schools andy an image of your brain a two two years later would your ability to react to face is a very different race have changed or would that dynamic still be there and you would have developed other sort of mechanisms to make up for the reduced brain activity that's a great question so so i would guess that my brain was changed over that time that that this area that she just one base area will become more responsive to face is outside of my own relations shouldn't we have some research on that to actually where we looked at this process developmental league in a we found that people who actually stay 'em no end you know their own a you know it'd be sabre hurts saturday a racially segregated m j m you know initially shoveling you know some responsiveness to all faces and then as you get older you start to see at a differential response to faces of their own race versus another race in adult that affects that's even stronger so so it's not just a you know the biology or you know a brain wiring but a green wire rain it's a function ten of of are social environment deliberately changing social environment which we change who exposed to then we can also change how our brain functions that that's that's that's pretty nuts i mean that makes sense i mean that's like me let me guess theoretically right like you know just continue to use you as a child in that scenario you're brain could have changed you know two years later and so you you can recognize nice and differentiate and you brank and register that you could differentiate between white people but theoretically right you could then moved to a different school where it is a you know a predominantly asian and then go through that process all over over again yes or or does it now so is that's right okay so it's it's it's it's tied to sort of difference in racism that in races in particular as opposed to just like you don't have a certain muscle for lack of a better term in your brain like that muscle is not generic it is a it is something that is learned and you could see a change in your brain that is specific to specific civic racist right you can see a change in your brain that actually's specifically specifically says if if if you're not exposed to face of that other race at all get less activation in that area of this face area but as you're exposed to those faces more and more overtime you're bringing adjust so hopefully find a little bit about little plasticity a so just because we see a difference in how the brain is responding or what gets activated doesn't need that's a permanent this that's that's it's actually you know the brain can kinda change at based on 'em were interacting less than a quarter social environment it's like an i mean i i wanna get to a stuck on this but i find this this part really fascinating is there also aj coal a like a coat incident a fact in terms of 'em you know i would imagine if you go into a room and you can't differentiate people 'em in the same way that you could you know in a different room let's say that would create a certain amount of anxiety m k and the more stuff that's in there that is not just foreign but foreign in the sense that you don't even have the capacity to process it in the same way i would imagine that that creates creates all sorts of sort of subsequent social reactions right i mean does that mean so for example you may not want to associated with those people as much because it's you know leading to this anxiety worry about making a mistake since using one person feel for these other so yes it could have all of these other downstream consequences in my case i actually eat it to be able to up you know to differentiate among white faces because no doubt no doubt what's my new community right so i needed to be able to figure it out in overtime i was able to figure it out but but even like super motivated like a security this but i couldn't do that right away it it it took my brain sort of trying to find enough exposure to these faces over and over again before i got the hang of it okay so let's talk about a couple of other m a examples of this implicit bias that you have 'em established through some of of a of the studies that you have done an and then i wanna come back around to do you know questions that maybe slightly outside your portfolio but a that you work obviously has implications of but let's talk just a little bit about m v a you did a one experiment with them or i should say a study we've 'em with a with a subliminal words that were flashed in front of a police officers and then associated with faces a just a walk us through that studying what the implications were so yeah i thought that's what stay stay in a sort of getting a police officers to think about violent crimes in we were interested in whether when they thought about violent crime bitch that would leads them to focus their attention on black male faces so for the study we have them sit in front of a computer and we flashed a word on the computer and we slash worked at such a rapid weight that they couldn't consciously detect protect them in the words were either words that were so she gave me a violent crime or not so some of the participants got words that were all is still she is fighting crime like arrest apprehending capturing shoots and those kinds of words and then we had a control and that didn't get any of those words and then show up to faces on the on the computer screen simultaneously one with a black male face in other words a white male face and we were interested in which face they would look at it and it turned out that those officers in exposed to words that were you know associated with violent crime like capture and arrest and so forth but they want their eyes away from the white station onto the black face to the black face that captured their attention and for us this was a way of almost looking at racial profiling n b m in a laboratory because i mean that's what profiling which about like is when no officers are on the lookout for violent crime you know just a racial category after posting a matter at all full attention and who they may stop and who they may search and so forth and so on this is a surgeon stripped down version of that sliding laboratories what's officers in that in that almost establishes which i think like you you know i feel like you could you could take those same a police officers and take offered drink and within a half an hour so you could get a sense of of of what the results of that test might be a but that would that establishes sort of him a clinical perspective tell us about this notion of categorical knowledge because this is basically like the break i mean i get the sense that it's just the description is 'em the brain just can't handle stuff is chaos on some level and so it half the w stuff up and this is the way the chips fall yes that's exactly right so categorization ac is a is a tool better bring you this kind of make sense of everything that we are a firm barred it was in the world and so we need a way we can't cut you know taken everything at once who told me later sort through it into the package it into you know a you know to to to to to categorize it so we were able to establish some kind of no control over the world but also some cookie rich and so a so so this is one tool that we use and we categorize you know not just people but we categorize everything categorize furniture and cars and you know we categorize you know flowers and you you name it a dog and cat soon and so forth and so that helps us to you know to establish some kind of order i guess over what we've seen in that allows us to know to be able to perform expectations in in in and so forth but when we do this with people when we categorize people is those social groups and then we also might develop beliefs about the people who are in that category called those stereotypes and we are also may develop feelings about people in that category which we call prejudice in the stereotypes types and prejudice together it's called bias in the concern is is that the people that bias can influence how we treat them making influence how much decisions about them and so forth so i mean it it sounds like in and we say there was another study where it was almost the reverse of the one you just explained where you would see a where he showed a subject images of a black faces in white faces and then a had other images sort of come into focus slowly an end end just explain that because then i i just wanna make a i wanna go further with this point of what sounds like we have hey 'em a physiological predisposition position stereo typing but but but but but before you addressed that let me just tell us about that other study yes so what other study of what we did is we had people sit in front of a computer screen and then we expose them to a series reads it faces an a so some of the participants got a series of blackmail faces in others got a series of white healthy is now these places were coming on the screen at such a rapid rate that they couldn't consciously proceed them and so it seemed like they were critical of light that they were watching and then after that we have them perform what we call an object recognition tasking for that object recognition passive saw an object appeared on the screen in nearly girl yet search and then slowly and forty steps of forty one frame the object became more clear in the participants go what the simply tell us at what point they could get icy object in the style that estate they've been exposed to blackmail basis or him they were able to recognize the crime relevant objects a lot faster so if they you know they thought larry image of a gun say they were able to recognize nice a stat gun fairly quickly whereas if they were exposed to fight now faces beforehand they need more information more claim or more clarity before they could see that with the gun was that was that with their age disparity between the race of the subject at all in terms of making those assessments no not at all so that's just one of the things that are potentially make here is that it's not a you know sort of a bias isn't something that one whole too many other does it i mean it's a sinus i think is something that were all you know if you know we're we're kind of owner to because there's a un association between black missing crime that's out there in a society and it's out there for a variety of reasons but we're all picking up on it and the the argument here is that that association between blackness incline is so strong that it can influence not only how we see people where they can influence how these objects and in this case each birthdays crime objects like guns knives and so forth but how does that i mean i i so so there is something in society right in in let's in maybe it's a a amalgamation of things right like television news what a you know a culture whatever that that associated a black males with crime but in but but if i'm living in eight in the nf i'm living in like eight white enclave and i'm going in almost everyone i deal with this white and i have no a you know or limited exposure the black people 'em end so i have no even even like a real world experience is that push back on that one to one association as it were right vs i i'm i'm black and my family is black and i know i i have a lot of association she ation would be idea that black males are not criminals how does that not implicate that subconscious like what is it what is their eight is is there something out there that has like precedence inch in terms of the way that it influences are subconscious not even override journal personal experiences oh yeah so that's a great question i think some each year in psychology suggesting that contact whealy batters matters right so especially if you have positive contact like the contact that you just described i think that matters of it you know in terms of how people you know a treat one another you know how you know what lessons discrimination basically we make it also decrease sweet negative racial attitudes towards together loop and so forth or or even put their own if if there's a societal a sort of attitude that negative without you own right that that buffer due to some that's um see studies you go just looking at whether lakers and association's there at all but in an end it's known association again it's not it's not something that conscious such couldn't decide okay i'm gonna override this thing because i know it's not true and i know that i had all of these no other of interactions with people in these positive lanes that tell me that it's not true it's it's it's it's hard to even if you have that experience you also have this other pretty powerful explosion which at least in this country that associate each last month with climbing to it's hard to just completely unduly association even though might be better conscious level you know get that association which triggered you might be able to stop it from influence say no what decisions you laker what actions you take so so even contact does not input i mean 'cause it's because even if there's no differential differential between race as they did they go through that a study that contact doesn't mitigate your sub conscious of beliefs at all it just it mitigates only how those subconscious beliefs can be overridden ridden in the context of the way you behave but it's still within your subconscious in the same way yeah i made some things i think some for some of those nations some associations bitterly sean i think that that is the case but i don't wanna suggests that contact doesn't matter you know a you know at all i think some sometimes you know sometimes it does some time in all if you pair that with all kinds of other things that you could do litigate by sms i think it's the combination of all these things working at a section of no like that can that can be a bias to some extent so not only contact for example sample but you also you don't need to be able to make decisions where you're you're not making decisions quickly and what you have to fall back on you know he's automatic associations and built up over time but you have time to think it went to replace those associations you know a bunch of other things that she fell about got the country areas like like to those association you know so so go ahead well there's a study a is that a you cite about orchestras 'em that were able to overcome gender a bias by basically having them do a you know audition behind a screen or something so then you couldn't tell the gender of the player in that that that that mitigated 'em disparities in the way that 'em orchestras were were built well so let me ask you this i mean if so we have this this is it possible to isolate what specifically is creating 'em these associations i mean because these ones you know that that you know we're talking just in terms of the way the gambling in implicate be the subconscious but that's pretty that's pretty crazy that contact might be able to mitigate the way they we react to are subconscious but if but if but if i understand this study it correctly what you're saying is that the subconscious is not necessarily it could be mitigated but it can't be directly impacted or shaped by contacting in the way that sort of other authoritative messages are well what do we know what those authoritative messages where they come from well i mean we talked about some of them earlier and i think just you don't be out in the world and you see how people are reacting to a in a different way and self worth year when the black then approaching if you see a white van of coaching of also are consuming news right up there in cedar flu you know on blind or television or even local news and you hear reports that no better associating a black crime or even a you know understanding of a real world statistics a crime statistics so you know we talk about mass incarceration for example when a pitch hearing the statistics shutouts you know be proportion of a you know we 'em clicking population that's black versus white versus asia and so forth like just knowing those sacks can leads people to think oh okay well this means that you know this category gory as a people pleaser people who are inherently criminal especially in the last i think where there's not a lot of context for a new home it is that we know how these disparities in criminal justice it's not developed over time like we don't have the average person that you know we have a sense of upsets the policy that created those disparity right or was it so when you say already you could go either way the people who made bad choices in defining could be criminal and so you know they would lock that so so you see what i'm saying so there's a lot of a lot of fun set aside in management association yeah yeah exactly so what at what point does implicit bias let's turn into racism in your in the in the way that you a view these sort of like a this hierarchy i mean is i mean there's racism involved in creating the implicit bias right which is setting up a system where there would be disparities in the way that we imprison people or 'em the way the lease people a there's there's racism 'em that a implicates a racial bias it'd be just in the sense of like i would imagine like you know on this level of like a black people were in slaved that you know i consciously aware that that that shouldn't happen but on some level if they allow themselves to be slaves maybe you know like that that may have created some type of you know unconscious bias 'em people but but just seeing people advocates say right i mean just being exposed to that at that time right in an end this is all where when you only saw people up in in these kinds of physicians in it was completely aligned with face muller even she thought but this wasn't a fair or the shouldn't be the case you're still exposed to it in that some starts to affect you attacking start to affect you at a level that you know this this level that were talking about where it's it's they couldn't even you know affect you're unconscious association's blackness splits no you don't servitude or of blackness in slavery or practice and interior you already and so forth and presumably it would go the other way to wear seeing m a s e a black person as president would impact your subconscious on some level in terms of like okay a black people could be present a that type of thing right away i mean there's generally that would that would that would have some impact as well but at what point does that implicit bias turn into racism but is it it just how you act upon those biopsies 'em or is it me because i've talked to people who are 'em who who's understanding of racism is less you know from a critical perspective but more from like hey you know a a a philosophical a perspective in there is they just they notion of or maybe even broadly sociological there's a notion of white supremacy that 'em that that that we we all subscribed to in this society society a black and white end a we make decisions in our life like at what point is this this notion of white supremacy not be burning across some wearing a hood type of white supremacy but like i i wanna live in this neighborhood 'cause it's the better neighborhood an i don't i don't like at what point does not paying attention to these implicit bias sees constitute racism in your mind like i am vaguely aware of like this disparity of thought but i'm just not going to just not gonna dress like you know like i'm just choosing the best neighborhood i can for my kid but on some level i'm not my heartstrings let's just say for lack of a better way of expressing are not pulled by v plight of these people over here whereas if they were white maybe i maybe they would impact me a little bit more like at what point and maybe this is a story about portfolio please don't even go i'm sorry go ahead well i'm just curious at what point you know from your perspective does have we crossed a certain threshold right i mean yeah that's a that's a good question i mean really what we're talking about is implicit bias is unconscious bias is acting on a stereotypes or or you're beliefs or acting on sealy without being aware but that's what you're doing but it's so that's that's what some impact with that have you can have bias that that has a pretty devastating impact whether it's conscious bias in i'm burning across or it's this kind of bias that you were talking about where you just decide you know you've got this neighborhood better than this other neighborhoods and you're not aware of let's set a fire claimed that decision making you could still 'em all kinds of appliances kenzi to pretty devastating made a current which is why we care about bias and we became about he unconscious bias a it's not even though it's more subtle than the clocks bernie it can handle the effects that set of equally damaging as well conscious that same citing a match you don't like eight people and you're gonna act on it so lastly i mean i've interviewed a folks who have said that they the presidency of a bronco bama and the subsequent presidency of donald trump and his campaign to racial lies as a lot of areas 'em in a way that were a surprisingly to me not as racial lies before before that andy at least in in in modern history in terms of like certain politically shoes and not how much well why is it that this implicit bias which exists you know across races in presumably you know across various people you know white people a why is it that 'em some people got what why why is it that makes this implicit bias i guess susceptible to being more activated or more predominant in the world view of people like my sense is that things have become much more a racial lies a in many respects andy and maybe and i think the data shows that m presumably this racial bias is not really been impacted dramatically what is it that sort of gives more life to this this implicit bias you know i think one of the things that gives a lot more life to is a social norms shifting you know so you know the the biases gary responsive to other social worms that that goes under in so to the extent saying that had that gala tarian values and this is something that should be airing fear to stay as americans and this is something that we wanna drive to work and you know if if a team that we were trained to do a no act in ways that are according to what those values even if you have a you know the implicit bias or is he just sort of unconscious like association's that that were making blue we train at police outwardly but china battle that site will try to come up to the standards that have but once those social vermont spoke to a no go in in in in shift then it can also shifts be correlation between no implicit bias and this more explicit racism if you wanna call it that so so the norms matter ended in a number of years man robots that they are kind of set the tone so what's this about behavior and what's not and so that that comes under fire or if you know that's being question then they came in they could lose a similar direction of of of being more biased in in and we have more some situations under which it's okay now to be biased or you know if we're not even even people who really a whole you gotta tell his values 'em you're they cherish those values and what's important to them to behave with according swift batch england so those people you know as the social norms shift away from that that their their behavior can start to change to a tool in that direction to because we're all social feeds and so we responded to leave social environment around us so so that's like that i feel like the norms shift they could like stressing the book is by everybody the book is biased uncovering the hidden prejudice the shapes what we see think in do to professor jennifer eberhardt we will put a link to be a book at majority dot fm thanks so much for your time today fascinating stuff oh thank you appreciate it all right folks that is be fun fun half a for the program i mean i her that last response that the the last answer she gave there i think his show a such an important part of the year there were living it 'em when we go to the fun half were gonna talk about this facebook group there twenty thousand customs border patrol agents in the country that's the denominator nater well now holder that's right that is the denominator we don't know what the numerator is we know there is ninety five hundred people in this 'em facebook group i would be active informer active in former but we don't know much about these people at all we know a propublica is it down in five three of four active border agents it's one that the supervisor 'em we don't know how many there are but i mean how many do you have to have to be for it to make a difference i mean honestly if five percent of an organization distributed between sort of leadership in non leadership five percent of an organization is is this corrupted by blatant racism and hatred of immigrants i mean how much influence do you think that could have throughout that organization station which is already dealing with is you know every problem they have at work is they function of well not every problem but a large percentage of the problems they haven't work has to do with immigration right and so there is aimed at least they predisposition 'em end with an act of literally force of people trying to 'em who are are demonizing these people i mean you could see how it corrupts and entire organization in the fact that this group was set up in august of twenty sixteen also i think it's indicative of what that of what a professor was saying that last answer there may be an implicit bias that exists in all of us towards other people but when they nominee of any major political party or pick any other type of i guess major public figure although it'd be hard to sort of even come up with an example of someone who is dominated the news lose more than donald trump over the past three or four years in any time in american history 'em be idea that he gave license to this i think it's no coincidence this shows up in august of twenty sixteen there is no other reason why it would have facebook has been around for a long time not decades anti immigrant sentiment to the extent that a with their in twenty sixteen theoretically was around but i think there was just eight broader license since then people were just you know time to let my freak flag fly and this is i think this is i think that's the story largely of a largely largely you to definitely i had a big component of de election there was you know people were like how could someone vote for obama and then vote for trump it'd be racist oh i mean i think 'em well we've had we've spoken to many many experts on how that's the case but 'em in that racial animus racial predispositions racism up plays a big part of that of course you know that's a broad brush we're not talking about every single person but an um you know this stuff gets normalized more when we come back we'll talk more about this a facebook group but it's the the this last interview i mean it would it's a little bit different from ones that we generally do 'cause it deals with psychology as opposed to sociology or a politics but this mix between sort of basic psychology in how it interacts with the broader context in the world i think is is rather important a to the time they were living in with that said it's time to the funding moved to the fun half of the program end the reminder it's your support that makes this show possible by becoming a member at joined the majority report dot com you keep this show live every single day it is you people who do this in were were doing all sorts of fun things coming up we're gonna go to a net roots nation were heading down there do a couple of interviews a a next week i mean not a couple probably do like forty twenty i have no idea 'em last year on a net roots nation i think a interviewed cynthia nixon and 'em zephyr teach out in a shock way lumumba shoop way shoot clay i i like what you said about the there'll be an intellectual resurgent too because i'm starting to see a little bit of that oh my god the myopic hey listen if somebody is aware the dave rubin is in town and he's don twitter asking people to meet him at a wine bar that is not the time did you tag me on twitter you call me they have sub tweeting me right now you call me i saw this at ten thirty last night i don't care this thing why don't we call him would have like the resident had the perfect tweet he tweeted at both of us and he said in michael's sam cedar voice i which is exactly the right way they'll let you don't that's fine but then call me i would have i was alone we saw a mile is that camp actually find out each killing uptown here's some string cheese you see no it's like i wake up wake up you're coming with that gotta go somewhere is gonna be import he's gonna give you a juice bar you'll never know you never forget this night you watch you father humiliated very stupid man john is very dumb mad as he upper west side so can you hold it in i phone and shoot this video place for you to sign gene you say open exchange of ideas right now when you were going to live streamed face facebook now when you see all the little bubbles in heart people people are liking it and i want you just to respond when you see those m i but we're going down to a net roots nation i don't know how i got on that hey gang were gonna be down in that rich nation andy for a couple of days andy also next week if all goes right maybe by mid week we are going to launch a something new and it is 'em i mean i don't know how many people listen to this point in the show what percentage of so we will be talking about it at the top of the show more but it is something that i've always wanted which was just very quick rundown of the headlines in the morning that i need to know so i have a sense of like you know what the what the tone of my day is gonna be like but also from he sort of aj a a a a a left left leaning perspective you know sort of like the show but 'em more like the daily being the news i mean for people who listen to that which the daily daily daily thing is behind a paywall now but it was on the counter dings network it was just like the morning nbc round up i know it'd be like everything you need it snowing but also also in a way and haley dang i don't care they just wanna make sure why not buy but what is the other thing that's analogy about it is that you know it was like a great column it wasn't just a straight summary they still had even though short and concise you know they're they're further and now little domino larry we don't have a little bit a little flair little attitude a little bit of where a all you need is a little bit of flat right and a low bar the entry it's gonna be always very short going for brevity in this little levity mostly brevity good morning rob maybe we finish that has to be part of that somebody is waiting to happen that is not a lawsuit why why can't we sampled and he doesn't own the word rebel good morning patriot good morning rob loss they will include that i'm trying to do something you got a slowdown speed it up studios electric well there's no a were not gonna be this will not be available available on you to a at first anyway and then ultimately i think we will we will put a version up on you to 'em all right folks yeah so he's running for congress i mean he's gonna take out any of the congress i dunno no i thought that was what he's threatening what's what's he up to its he's still around who's gonna challenge i know the latest a brand destructive update and i haven't watched it yet which is why i haven't brought it's anybody's attention and it's literally because of the frigging youtube algorithm there this very silly vice series where they liked the get like let's have a group of like black people the response of the democratic debate but some of them will be mce right there like that this is like this new sort of like reality show wising so the new one is like lgbtq with mce at dairy is at the center of this stupid had died which is actually mean that's probably a dream come true for oh yeah you know so that would will you know the whole a game plan my guess would be is that it's a bunch of relatively normal people being like what are you talking about well wrong with is that the same stuff that he said right good morning right rather slight promising and they've lost addict through that they'd be left apathetically steamroll through some of that content at some point 'em so we're we're all all of your membership will will help us a launch this this little baby be as well join the majority report dot com also don't forget just coffee dot co op fair trade coffee tea or chocolate use the coupon code majority get ten percent off a today is tuesday july second and that means that tonight it is tuesday july second in michael indeed on tonight show at seven pm on the michael brook show youtube channel we're discussing reclaiming the future technology and marxism than anthony pantano tano of the needle drop comes on were talking about the twenty five year anniversary of it was written and re gay and then malaysia bali organizing for opposed capitalist future gerrymandering vote suppression and a voter turnout out an biden in harris in the post game dealing with the ten year anniversary of the coup in honduras new interview with men wells eliah of course the debunked bunch of other content patriot dot com slash tm bs michael brook show on youtube where were well over fifty three thousand subscribers now starting to kinda cook there in a don't forget checkout 'em anti fatah patriotic dot com slash anti fatah jamie is that a communist economy camp right now at an undisclosed gotta have some hop sack dennis prager economy can't a as pretty a literary hangover the most recent episode is on a satire of the original utopian socialists in america the life bill romance by nathaniel hawthorne coming up next is gonna be a contemporary utopian i i wouldn't come socialist but sort of a liberal leftist rutger bregman is utopia realist realists he's been on this show we talk me and my friend chris you're gonna talk about his fifth in our workweek proposals his abolish poverty stuff and most consequential leave his you'd be i and i will also take some shots at the gang gang in that podcast as well so look forward to that and then the coming maybe this weekend a possibly next weekend we just got a tweet it a piece by i forget his name a the co author of the people's republic of walmart melrose worse yes who's really brilliant and he wrote a piece three years ago apparently a echoing everything we said about you be i two different versions who did the co author of the people's remember how rose barsky we belong coauthors people's republican walmart oh yeah yeah you 'em well yeah i mean they it's a it's it's a fairly straightforward critique of you'd be itis a politically critique and it's unfair was stops the show why don't you really think you're listening who is drunk people disabilities thoughts this beer meanwhile he's thinking about robotics or you're stuck at the automation robotics gonna take their podcast you're gonna be you're you're you're looking at a change for while he's got a lot more people see you in a the fun half a m foreign folks six four six two five seven thirty nine twenty she you in the lieutenant at alpha males oh by the way by on the alpha males a just imagine our emails of forty five monday our emails of just wanna degrade the white land the males lot of dubai no males by by says one of our emails of light i am eight total yards on we bring back in interviewing a couple of put him in rotation cg dead well the problem with those is there like forty five seconds long so i dunno during the break that mine i comes off the balkans lee and they alpha males like walk talk about almost has what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what am i going to other back in london on the back back back on all of have you tried doing an impression on a college campus i i think there's no reason why reasonable people from the allied campbell rooster psych males by by a black male side by middle lane blocked out there doesn't a little party in america deserves to be taken over by do not keep it at one hundred ten miles from the game last night

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Rare Earths: The Hidden Cost to Their Magic, Part 2

Distillations: Science + Culture + History

31:33 min | 1 year ago

Rare Earths: The Hidden Cost to Their Magic, Part 2

"Welcome dissipations a podcast powered by the science history institute. I'm Alexis Pedrick. And I'm Lisa berry Drako in each episode of distillation. We take a deep dive into a moment of science related history in order to shed some light on the present. This is part two of rare earths the hidden costs to their magic in part one we told you the story of a Chinese fishermen who woke the world up to our dependence on rare earns is this the moment of maritime drama, which sparked the worst political row in years between China and Japan. A Chinese fishing vessel is ordered to stop by Japanese sailors. We told you what we're arts are how he found them in the first place and have we used them or not used them throughout our history. In this episode we're going to dive deeper into the cost of their magic. And if you haven't already, you should probably listen to part one first chapter six how China became the rare earths capital of. The world. I think what's fascinating is that we used to one hundred years ago. No, where everything came from David Abraham is the author of a book about rare earths called the elements of power, if would was cut down. It was cut down from somewhere nearby and even if it wasn't nearby you knew it was would. And as we start to, to, to use these products that are far more complex each component comes to tremendously complex lie line to get to us because of that complexity people often don't realize that rare earths are not truly rare. They're everywhere most countries have enough, rare earths under their soil for their own needs. But they aren't equally easy to actually get out of the ground, and they're hazardous to mind, they can be very expensive to get if you want to source them in a social in environmentally responsible way. And so the solution has been to cut out the socially and environmentally responsible part and just go for cheap. All of those technologies come with costs that are borne by some people had born in some places and benefits that often accrue on two different people in different places the places where historically it's easier to get these things on the cheap. Marginal former colonial frontier, remotely populated areas, which is why despite the relative bigwigs air elements in the earth's crust. We tend to see mining in Inner Mongolia, interests in mining these things in the Amazon. You know the mountain pass. Mine was located in eastern south eastern, California. Right. These are not heavily populated places where mining interests are going to have to answer to a lot of people are concerned about what's happening in their backyard. The Chinese government developed, it's rare earth industry far from Beijing. And the backyards of powerful people China began its dominance in rare earths with or leftover from iron and uranium mines in Inner Mongolia, and starting in the nineteen eighties China was setting up research programs to unlock their power and the US actually played a role in making it that way. Thanks to Richard Nixon, and his brother Edward Edward Nixon was a geologist, and environmental scientist actually helped convince his brother to form the EPA in nineteen seventy he did to a lot of consulting work for industrial concerns. So his solution at the time was actually, to facilitate the transfer of, of heavy industry from the US to different countries. And one of the reasons was honestly to move heavily polluting industries outside of the United States. And so, from nationalist environmentalist standpoint and makes perfect sense. Protect america. Preserve America's environments move polluting industries overseas. It was a conservative environmentalist patriotic act to establish the Environmental Protection Agency. This is part of the deindustrialization of the west. In other words, we get to keep the magic someone else gets to pay the cost. If you look at the textile industry or the automotive industry, there were a lot of people who can. To be very angry about the fact that these industries left the United States for earth's, maybe not so much because earth mining is extremely hazardous. If you're bringing up rare earth elements, you're also bringing up radioactive waste, and this is very expensive and very controversial to manage well. Chapter seven sacrificed zones. We have this attitude that, you know, there's no way to get the stuff that we need without sacrificing some place somewhere, someone's going to have to bear the burden. There's a term for the places that bear the cost of making the magic in all of our gadgets and tech sacrificed zones. We're going to tell you about two of these sacrifice stones in Inner Mongolia and on Thomas region in northern China, Inner Mongolia is also a disputed territory like those islands in the East China Sea. The town of Byeon Obon is one of those sacrificed zones. This used to be a windswept grasslands you know it's not a barren desert. It's not a wasteland. It was a place where he for millennia nomadic. Pastoralists grazed today. Do still see herders moving with their flocks. But of course life is much different for herders in this contemporary. Context, because they live in the shadow of the largest, rare mine in the world in nineteen twenty seven China came across iron reserves. Here they found rare earths ten years later of mine them ever, since the mine is basically two giant pits and big tailing ponds and couched in the middle of this is actually, the town of by an oboe. There's another sacrifice own Inner Mongolia called bowel to- city, which is ninety three miles south of Bion opo, and this is actually where most of the rare earths mind by an oboe get refined. It's not a frontier outpost, it's a glistening modern metropolis with lots of high rises in neon lights and things like that much like other major cities on China's eastern seaboard without adequate protections. Rare earth, mining, and processing can produce devastating effects, not just to the land, but to the people who lived there and it's not just the rare earth. Themselves causing damage. It's the things that come up alongside them like Floride and arsenic, these two can cause skeletal fluorosis. It's a debilitating condition that causes bones to become brittle and break bones can grow radically and become out of sync with their muscles, ligaments, you can identify maybe who was born in raised just outside of the city because often, you're looking at stunted growth, people who have skin lesions, or even, you know, acute cases, skeletal, fluorosis, which look like bone deformities. So one of the things that you notice when you visit bow to are these really large hospitals. I'm talking twenty stories twenty story hospital dedicated entirely to bone medicine. It'll say in big letters at the top of the twenty story building. The bone the regional bone medicine hospital, and it's not just the deformities people around bell toll us a couple of terms that signify, the devastation one is cancer villages places where the cancer rates have skyrocketed because of the pollution. The normal ratio of people diagnosed with cancer is to, in one thousand in belto. It's one in seven, it's become a rallying cry to protest the human toll to say. Look look at the human costs of this way of doing business. So this was a grievance advanced on the part of Chinese citizens against the industry against the government, right? What did they want? They wanted they wanted to be moved. They wanted to be compensated. They wanted medical treatment, and they also wanted the cause of, of the illness to be taken care of the hazards of rare earths come at four stages. The mining itself refining the ore manage. The waist and disposing of it. I the mining blasting rare earths out of the earth's crust means blasting out other elements to elements that weren't harming anyone in the ground. But once you blast them out of the ground pulverize them into powder, what you're doing is you're transforming them into a form that they can be inhaled that they can stick to your skin that they can be transported on the wind and enter into the food and water streams, and it isn't only people who work in the minds were affected. Everyone downstream is affected too, chances are they're eating meat from animals who were drinking contaminated water, and they're eating contaminated vegetation, refining the rare earths also creates pollution. This is where the elements need to be separated from the rest of the or the process requires acid baths, and extremely high temperatures and it doesn't happen in by an oboe, but embattled city and the reason that you have this. Disconnect between the mining site and the processing site is simply because the processing requires a lot of water and bow to- city is located on the northern shore of the Yellow River, it gains its name from the yellow soil that bleeds into the water is the river descends from the Tabet plateau in recent years. The river has gained another more notorious claim to fame as one of the most polluted rivers in the world for every ton of rare earths produced dozens or even hundreds of tons of radioactive waste water water, contaminated with heavy metals radioactive materials are also created and those radioactive materials, also create radon gas which can cause cancer. This is a city of several million people, and, you know, downstream of the major industrial facility. These are traditional agricultural villages, historically. This has been a really. Food base for the city. And so, historically, people have been consuming vegetable produce, and meats and fish protein that, that are contaminated with the waste from rare earth, refining processing minds from across the globe. Now ship their raw or to China to refine. It processing is happening everywhere. David Abraham visited a few processing plants in southern China. Here's him describing one. Felt like a small warehouse that you bet you'd walk in. It was a pitched roof but really wasn't wider than about twenty feet, and it was about seventy feet long and along the side of the building were about seven furnaces, all wailing away. So you could really feel the heat when you when you came at you when you came in the room and after being there and watching these cauldrons bubble with, with, with some type of metal in them. I started to look around and feel that my, my nose was burning in my eyes were starting to water. So these guys are working there five six days a week and couldn't imagine the toll it's taking on their bodies refining bear. Earth's has become such big business in China that people are setting up their own individuals small scale operations, especially when we're looking in southern China. A lot of these mining facilities summer were were quite rogue. And to produce rare earths was very easy for local minor to do. They could just take a little bit of earth. Throw some acid on it and boom they had something that take tell. So when that's happening it's very easy for, for individuals to create very inefficient, very polluting, but very profitable for the individual material processing. But when you're mining you as we're mentioning before ninety. Percent of the material is useless. So you have to put it back. And this brings us to the other two ways that rare earths production is hazardous waste management and disposal all that stuff has to go somewhere. And so what minds typically do and or have historically done as they dig a big retention pond nearby. And they pipe their wastewater, which also contains the remaining the remaining or that what that wasn't wanted and they dump it there. Right. And gradually over time the water drains out into the surrounding soil or evaporates, and what you're left with is kind of a silt or slurry, and what some mining operations do is they then haul that away somewhere else. But the scary thing is we don't always know where that somewhere else is. This is really what kept me up at night, you know, these are people who had other plans for their lives. And I really identified with that. I mean I talked with people who were dying of cancer, and to me, it seemed such terrible, needless waste simply because we are collectively globally not willing to pay a few more dollars per kilo for a rare elements in order for them to be sourced. Stain ably. Now, maybe this is surprising, but China has documented this devastation pretty well there's often an assumption. Oh, you know this environmental degradation is happening because they're incompetent. And they don't know any better. They have. They must have no idea the scope of the of the damage that they're doing. But in fact, if you go to the municipal library in bow to- city. There are shelves of studies dating back to the seventies, and that monitor changes in soil quality and water quality. There's a number of a scientific journals that are devoted to the questions of radioactive waste management of soil and water via Billiton from what are called exhausted industrial areas and it's not just the research. They're also responding to people's demands the credit of China's institutions that. They built hospitals a number of people have been resettled compensated. Of course, is a lot of problems with that. And actually China has been working really hard to reduce its share of global Rarick production. This part is really he China wants to produce fewer rare earths so that it can get its environmental problem under control, but we wouldn't let them in fact, China would be punished for trying to be environmentally responsible. Sounds wild, but it brings us back to the fishermen incident. Hay listeners, we just wanna take a moment and reminds you to check out our website, distillation dot org. That's right. Because does delay shins is more than a podcast for also multimedia magazine. We tell stories about the intersections between science culture and history. You can read about the pain relieving potential hot peppers. You can watch video about an interactive astronomy textbook from. Seventeenth century, and you can find every single distillation podcast episode ever, also you can find episode transcripts and research notes, all at disinflation dot org. Back to the show chapter eight the two thousand ten rare earths crisis. Remember our story about the Chinese fishermen, who set off an international crisis on September, seventh two thousand and ten Jen. Gee Jones Chula was fishing, the disputed Japanese controlled islands, the isolated incident, the fluke that freaked out the world unnecessarily. Well, we left something out before that two thousand and ten incident, something bigger had been brewing for a few years, China had been limiting the amount of rare earths. They were exporting since two thousand six because they were actually trying to get a handle on the pollution their minds and processing facilities throughout the country were harming millions of people and their environment reducing production would slow things down reducing. Production. Domestically is a victory for China's domestic environmental movements. That's victory for public health advocates in China in two thousand and ten just before the incident with the fishermen China reduced. It's quotas by forty percent. This raise the prices of rare earth, significantly people around the world. We're upset and the two thousand and ten incident fueled, the fire when American media outlets incorrectly labeled it as a total embargo prices shot up even more, but even more importantly, it justified the United States, Japan and the European Union in bringing a case against China to the World Trade Organization. They file joint lawsuit in two thousand twelve saying that China shouldn't be allowed to deny exports, such critical elements. We gotta take control of our energy future. And we can't let that energy industry take root in some other country because they were allowed to break the rules this morning. We're taking. An additional step forward. We're bringing a new trade case against China, and we're being joined by Japan and some are European allies. The World Trade Organization ruled against China in two thousand fourteen the rule said, they couldn't restrict exports by setting national quotas. Now, China has a good case to limit production, but you won't hear Chinese officials. Talk about it to the English speaking world, you environmental contamination, and associated unrest, is a very sensitive matter for the Chinese government. It's not something that can really safely be talked about, and it is, also the Chinese government is also acutely aware that this is a point that very easily and immediately draws international criticism. So in a way, but maybe downplaying or understating the extent of the environmental harm to the outside world, the Chinese. Has kind of undermined its own very reasonable case for actually controlling and for actually getting rare production under control during the in between years. A black market appeared inserted filling the gaps left by China's legal production. And as you might guess they were not doing things in an environmentally responsible way. They were doing things in the cheapest possible way. So really a sizeable portion of the rare elements that were being consumed worldwide. We're coming from, if informal or illegal channels, we're at the point now where we can't live without rare arts. There's a huge demand, and all it takes is for someone to come up with the supply, whoever does it cheapest when's. Meanwhile, in Brazil accompany, was starting to invest in more ethical, and sustainable method to mining, rare earths. So the story of the other Russia mine. In Brazil, it's a tale of hope and disappointment. This mine produces about eighty percent of the world's niobium which is used to make stronger steel. It's not a rare earth, but has similar properties to wear earth's and it's usually found alongside them. This mine is also the only one that has a certification that guarantees it complies with local laws and other strict environmental requirements. The only one it's known as an ASO fourteen thousand one certification, and it's been running since the nineteen sixties. So why do we care about this mine? If niobium isn't a rare earth because they're collecting ton of railroads in their waste ponds. And so shortly after. The earlier crisis happened at the at the beginning of the decade, one of the things that this company decided to do is to fast track a program to reprocess their existing waste and to extract, rare elements from it, and they manage to do this for a number of rare elements, and to achieve very high levels of purity. The tail of hope is that this company has developed a technique that could signal a paradigm shift for how we get the elements. We need this technique could get us out of the twentieth century way of mining, the tale of disappointment is that they just can't beat the China price. That's the despair. Once people get a taste of not only magic but cheap magic. It's hard to go back especially as long as the ugly costs day hidden. But there were also a number of people who were driven by the need, or the desire and the commitment to figuring out and environmentally and socially responsible way to source very elements and the market didn't support these people, the two thousand ten crisis. Fed a gold, rush fervor in rare earths sanfer. Millier people are prospecting all over the world. So you had prospectors in Greenland claiming that they found the world's greatest for deposits. You have reports coming out from North Korea. North Korea has the world's largest rare deposit. You have reports coming from Afghanistan that if ghanistan has the world's largest rare deposit, and you have reports coming out from Brazil that, Brazil has the world's largest where deposit and the interesting thing about all of these claims that it was poten-. The world's largest rare deposit. Is that each of these deposits were located in places that were either legally or logistically impossible to mind, even Molycorp home to the former mountain pass mine reopened in two thousand twelve while Corp side higher sales volumes and prices, all due to growing demand for so called rare earth minerals? But it closed after only three years and the main reason why was that it simply couldn't compete with China, but there might be another reason after the two thousand and ten crisis. Some companies are trying to learn to live without them. Chapter nine replacing rare earths so up until this point, we've been talking about rare earths as these indispensable parts of our lives. We got hooked on their magic, and now he can't do without it. So we want to know is why can't we all make our own magic. A hey, find our own earth's wherever we are turns out, not that easy, despite the fact that they're everywhere opening up. A new mine is expensive, and it takes about twenty years to get them off the ground. And we don't have that kind of time, because it's are critical for green technologies like hybrid electric cars. In other words, we need rare earths to solve our climate crisis. It's really a painful paradox and producing them sustainably in places like the US seems to be off the table right now. But there are some alternatives. For example, enter Ames laboratory in Iowa becoming of the atomic age work with radioactive material has brought an offensively. For special laboratories with special equipment, such is the case at the research center of the Ames laboratory on the Iowa State college campus, roughly food of all of the uranium that was used touring. The Manhattan project was actually produced in by the Ames project. Aims, laboratory is now a department of energy lab that research is rare earths, Alex King was the director until two thousand thirteen so all the technologies that would develop to work on uranium have since been KOMO Shalayel and got into the commercial sector. But the lab still use his a lot of that expertise to carry on work on rare earth elements after the two thousand ten crisis. The US department of energy created a critical material policy, they pumped almost five hundred million dollars to open the critical material institute at Ames laboratory so-far. We have something. Hang around AT, inventions, and they include things like processes fall recycling materials aim scientists at Cana Lebanon developed a new method of recycling, rare earths for manufacturing waste on the, the goal is to dissolve magnet, as fishing could be dissolved us our recover high period theory elements without resulting in toxic waste recycling is definitely helping, but aims is taking it a step further. They're coming up with ways to keep all of the magic without the rare earths. That's right. Scientists are working on replacements for rare earth, and they've already come up with some like replacement for some applications of your opium. Remember that particular rare earth made the red lights and color, TV the material, we've invented to replace EuropeaM works very well in one of the places that European is used. But not in all of them. It works great influence, and lights, not so great in the smartphone or computer screens, that also used rupiah, any one strategy may made part of the challenge, but nodal. So what it does is it releases some of the arro- PM that's going into fluorescent lights. And that can then go into other areas where European is needed, so you need to have a diversified strategy beyond the lab, other companies have found ways to cut their use of where earth or replace them altogether. Tell you what I made its Prius, motor smaller, so the using fewer Erz Ford redesigned, its fusion hybrid teas less two and they moved away from neodymium, the rare earth that makes magnets, more powerful, tesla on the other hand recently started using the odium when they weren't before. But at least one success story is that wind turbines are moving away from using rare earths altogether. So piece by piece. Does this mean we won't need rare earths in the future? Well, unfortunately, time is not on our side. We still need rare earths in a lot of green technology. And we don't have the time to completely overhaul how we make green technology. Here's Roger Turner again. We need them in minutes twenty years over the longer term. I think it's certainly it opened an open question. But these are metals that matter for our future. In two thousand nineteen rare earths are in the headlines again. President Trump is talking about the fact that the trade war with China is maybe going to go away, but there's actually no sign that it's going to the trade war is wrapping up with China over something called rare earth minerals. If we continue to frame, the challenge in terms of China, potentially holding the rest of the world in a stranglehold. We're actually overlooking, the common ground that we have not only in. Maintaining globally secure supply, which means that diversified supply. But also getting ourselves out of this nineteenth and twentieth. Century mode of mining that just takes devastation for granted the assumption that the way that we've always mind, rare elements is the only way that we can mind earth elements is to me, a profound failure of imagination. For clinger. There's actually a simple solution, the US government and companies should demand that their rare earths come from a place that has an ISO fourteen thousand one certification. Think of it kind of like the sticker, that's on our Ganic food to notify the customer, except it's for rare earths. And if you're freaked out of what you can do as an individual. Honestly, one of the best things you can do is hold off on buying that new iphone or that new gadget the second that it comes out less material that we need on a day-to-day basis. The less high phones, that someone needs to have the less stuff someone needs to buy likely they're making a green decision by not. If you can get another year out of your smartphone. If you get another year out of your computer the green decision is to stick with what you've got. But there's something else. The best thing you can do really, if we wanna get down to it is educate yourself understand, what rare earths are, and what role they play in the world. So the next time you hear a politician, talking about green technology or here mentioned on the news. You understand what they're talking about. And you can demand that they get answers do research and make more sustainable decisions. Distillation is more than a podcast. We're also a multimedia magazine. You can find our podcast videos and stories at distillation dot org. And you can follow the science history institute on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. This story was reported by Rico, Hernandez and produced by him. Mariel car and myself. And this was mixed by James Morrison for distillation. I'm Lisa berry Drako. And I'm Alexis Patrick. Thanks for listening.

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Making the Deserts Bloom

Distillations: Science + Culture + History

36:25 min | 2 years ago

Making the Deserts Bloom

"Mother nature. Creates a more serious situation in Texas and parts of Oklahoma, Kansas, New, Mexico, and Colorado a six-month heels off cattle and ruins crop. The critical need for water makes it necessary for the farmers to truck. The precious liquid to the hers empty Stockton's testified to the dreadful loss already sustained by the ranchers the last rain a little over one inch fell here in September. Further setbacks come next month. When Cavs are sold at alone. Hello. And welcome to distillation a podcast powered by the science history institute, I'm Alexis Patrick, and I'm Lisa very Drako any Jeppe Assad distillation, we take a deep dive into a moment of science related history in order to shed some light on the present. And the team that produces it while we're all nerds about the history of science and roll passionate about different aspects. So behind the scenes every month were wrangling with topics and research with the goal of bringing you a story. The makes you look at the world and in different way, there's myself and Lisa your hosts, our senior producer Mariel car guys. You might remember her from our opioid story and our other producer, Rigo Hernandez. Today's story actually comes from Rigo and some reporting he did in his hometown in California. He's gonna pick up this story later in the episode. So you'll hear from him and get to know why he's so passionate about this topic. And what is that topic? Well today are still. Starts in nineteen fifties, Texas, where a terrible drought was taking place in science actually almost science fiction came to save the day. Kind of the story of how Texas responded to the really desperate situation of not having enough water tells us a lot about what we think science should do for us and the role we think it should play in our lives chapter one. The tragedy of the Commons between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty half of Texas farming industry vanished and in a small city on the Gulf Coast called freeport, the drought was hitting especially hard so hard that rationing prevented people from watering their plants washing their cars or running their evaporative coolers, and we should know in south eastern, Texas, evaporative coolers, are not just for fun like most of Texas. Freeport, got his drinking water from the brazos river, which cuts diagonally across much of the state before emptying into the Gulf of Mexico. Icho right next to freeport. So by the time this river reaches freeport, which is again, the very very end of the river. The flow has slowed down there's less water total, and they just can't really rely on it anymore because everybody it's kind of the tragedy that Commons once there's a need for water. Everybody describes as much as I can without worrying about his downstream. That's Jacob Roberts. He's a writer for distillation magazine. And he co wrote a story about the history of one of our scientific solutions to drought with Kenton, Jahic processing archivists here. Science history institute by nineteen fifty seven freeport was eight years into a decade long drought. Some farmers resorted defeating their animals prickly pear or molasses just to keep them alive. The US government was issuing federal food commodities to more than one hundred thousand people of two hundred and fifty four Texas counties. Two hundred and forty four were considered disaster. Areas and freeport, one of them. It was suffering. What their reservoirs were very low for about a decade. They had water rationing. People's lawns. Completely dried up. Everything will kind of dead. The needed water now throughout the drought years. The salty waters of the Gulf of Mexico laughed at freeport shore taunting thirsty town with it's undrinkable water. But some people looked out at sea in wondered what if they could make that undrinkable seawater drinkable and January thirteenth nineteen fifty seven four hundred miles from freeport in the city of San Angelo, president Dwight Eisenhower gave a speech that his administration would do whatever they could to alleviate the suffering from the drought. But it wouldn't be Eisenhower who deliver freeport from its drought that honor belonged to a new president one who was dealing with increasingly complex foreign relations and needed a win. John F Kennedy? But he didn't do it alone. JFK was concerned about water in Texas because his vice president Lyndon B Johnson made sure he was concerned about. Out it the greatest interest the vice president living as he does. And the state of Texas has seen throughout his life. How important it is the freshwater be secured water security had been a priority for LBJ for a while. As a Senator he worked on a Bill Bill dams that saved freshwater when he was the Senate whip congress passed the saline water act in nineteen fifty two all that drought going on it hadn't gone unnoticed. The saline water act was basically a research program to figure out the best way to convert seawater into drinkable water, which begs Zaveri basic question, right? Why can't we drink the ocean? It's very ironic that we're surrounded by all this water of the world is made up about seventy percent water and only a tiny percentage of that is freshwater that humans can drink and even a smaller percentage of that is acceptable. So most of its locked up. Glaciers or it's far underground we can't access it. So for all of human history. People have been thinking what's up with that? Why can't we just drink the ocean? The answer is actually pretty simple. You can't drink the ocean. Because it'll kill you. If you drink enough of it seawater is made up of h two. Oh, yes. But also a lot of salt too, much salt for the human body to process when you drink it. Your body is to work really hard to flush out that salt, and you end up paying more water than you drink, and then you dehydrate, and then you die the humans don't really like limitations like this. We don't like to be told. No, there's an ocean full of water. We want the option of drinking it. So we created a workaround desalinating getting the salt out of saltwater in nineteen fifty five congress establishes the office of saline water and within a few years, they came up with a plan to create five pilot desalinating plants across the United States each one was planned. To use a different type of technology because they didn't know what would be the best way to create desalinated water. So one plant used freezing technology, which was essentially what it sounds like you would freeze the water, and because the density of water and salt is different. It would essentially separate the water from the salt. So you just scoop the ice off the top. And then melted, and it would be fresh water, and the salt will be trapped in the bottom. There's also an evacuation method which is essentially boiling the water and capturing the steam that's the method used by the first desalination plant in the United States in freeport, Texas, when it opened in nineteen sixty one the freeport plant used the evaporation technique because of the man who led the project a chemical engineer named Walter L badger. He was an expert on chemical evaporaters he made his money selling the solids heat extracted from liquids things like salt, and chlorine and the focus didn't become in. So later on actually keeping. The water that they were boiling off. So at the beginning, they revaluing the solids that were in the water. And then later, they realized that the real value was actually pure water itself. Badger was a character. In addition to being a chemical engineer. He was a professor, and he had a reputation for being tough on students. He'd call them to the front of the room and blow smoke in their faces while they drew evaporator designs on the chalkboard. Sweet guy. Here's Kent bionic processing ircus the science history institute. Push it trying to get them to do their job. Well, things he tried to get a question was that, you know, the the chemical industry over the chemical companies expected results underplays and congress was relying on badger for results. Badger was confident undaunted by the task of desalination badgers. Make comments like yeah. I think I've been working in this field for about fifty years. I think I know thing or two about evaporaters just was clearly had a little bit of an ego. And I think that the congressmen who are listening to him definitely aided up. So the project precedes the plan is built, and it really was a marvel of engineering. Ng there's a virtually infinite supply of water in the ocean. And now, we control it. It's the ultimate triumph of science over nature. President John F Kennedy hailed it as a pivotal American scientific achieve vicious a work, which in many ways is more important than any other scientific enterprise in which this country is now engaged everyone is over the moon. We will in fact, get to the moon in about eight years. But in the meantime, with this new plant, there are plenty of jobs. The plant is about to bring much needed water security to the region. And remember when we said Kennedy was dealing with some complex foreign relations problems and needed a big win. We were talking about the failed bay of pigs invasion in Cuba, and the Berlin crisis that split the German capital also thing that was going on during this time where to beginning space race. And there are concerned America at that time was falling behind around the sites. Basically, he needs some good news. Some good scientific news. So on the day. The freeport desalinating plan opens in nineteen sixty one Kennedy was there. Well, kind of what happens next is a combination of TV magic and clever. Staging so Kennedy is sitting in the Oval Office. He's got the cameras on him. And he's giving the speech which is being broadcast directly through the microphones to crowds at freeport on the other side of the country. I'm sure that before this decade is out that we will see more and more evidence of man's ability at an economic rate to secure fresh water from salt water, and when that day comes then we literally see the desert bloom. Kyrie was saying that we're going to harness the ocean, we're going to turn desert's into farmland. We're going to bring men women out of poverty, and it's all because of science any reaches over and pushes the shiny black button. That kind of looks like a telegraph. There's a wire sticking out of it. But you can't tell if it's actually connected to anything any leans over. And he says over I hope it works as in. I hope this moment of cinema magic and staging doesn't Fum while the camera's rolling. But also, maybe I hope this thing I've played up as saving us actually saves us. And then the camera cuts to back and freeport, where a spigot opens up in watered fresh water gushes out into a tank and children run up with paper cups and the crowd is like smiling families and mothers. And reporters, and it's implying that Kennedy somehow has started up this whole plant, and then it's over deceleration is solved everything. But of course, it's more complicated than that. Because this wouldn't be distillation if we didn't take that pretty picture and mess it up a little bit JFK might have had a win in Texas, but droughts would continue to afflict the country and things would get messy Messier, especially in California. So here's what we bring in our producer Rico, Hernandez like the rest of us. Rigo likes to complicate things. And because he grew up in San Diego, water, scarcity has been on his mind for most of his life. Chapter two Jerry Brown, aka governor moonbeam. Drought. Drought of record setting proportions and thirteen states from California to Kansas, North Dakota to Colorado water rationing for business and industry as well as private use is already affect in some areas and weather. Forecasters say it's going to all get worse before it gets better. That's tomb Larum PVS in nineteen seventy seven in nineteen seventy six California. Get hit with the worst drought in its history in my not have lasted as long as decades-long win in Texas. This one only lasted about two years, but the stakes were higher California's the most populous state in the country any gross most of our fruits and vegetables. Other industries dependent on water are suffering a car wash operator in mill valley, Dr drilling for his own water to save his business, but didn't have any luck the laundry business has been struggling to stay alive by cutting back on its processes and trying to reduce the number of customers such individuals struggles are only the beginning. According to many who see the drought. And its ramifications spreading through every sector of the California economy and lifestyle before it's over California's governor at the time was Jerry Brown, also known as governor moonbeam nickname that he earned because of his idealistic and nontraditional policies here. He is imperious in nineteen seventy seven. Subject to limits as people were two thousand years ago, and we can harness nature to some extent. But we haven't learned how to control it yet. If this sounds familiar to you. You're not alone. Apparently politicians really liked talking about harnessing, the power of nature, and I hope that secretary of agriculture, but those other people in Washington will provide some funds and some leadership in such projects as using the ocean of which certainly the planet is willing down with the agriculture industry last a billion dollars during the drought. But for all his talk about harnessing, nature and drinking the ocean. Jerry Brown didn't build a deceleration plant. Heels said this some PVS, and there is a certain arrogance of power that lays waste, the basic resources of our land that we're gonna have to change we have to realize that we're on this planet, just like all the other species. And I think there's been a certain degree of pride narrates that is not recognized that Brown. Mm created when I like to think of as a water police force and residents were to cut their water. Use by ten percent and people who didn't were charge extra in the end southern California cut its water use by fifteen percent exceeding that goal. It was the first time that the state got series about water conservation. And then the rains returning nineteen seventy eight, but the state warned people not to fall into a false sense of security. They started airing ads like this one when it rains in California. Remember remember that our summers are long hot and dry. Remember, the California survives on the water? It saves on water stored in reservoirs in groundwater basins. And remember, the California Department of water resources wants you to save water all year long, save every last drop it saves energy to. Jerry Brown was onto something because politically sexy as billing dissemination plans may seem they're actually not the best solution to drought, but we keep building. Anyway. Chapter three a brief history of desalinating and its complications. The ocean has been taunting thirsty people for a long time, it bother Stuttle back in three forty BC, and he came up with these salination method using apparation it was essentially the same method. Walter badger later us at the freeport, Texas plant, the ancient Greeks and Romans also dealt with water shortages, but instead of the salvation they built Akwa ducts that carry fresh water from lakes and rivers. Here's Jacob Roberts again. Yeah. Even at the very beginning. It was clear that doing a massive engineering projects like building an act, which is really incredible. And obviously they've lasted through the ages against I'll see them today to take advantage of existing sources of freshwater was just way easier and more energy efficient and less time consuming than to extract the fresh water from the ocean in modern history. The first examples of people trying to drink the seat where people living on the sea people on boats people with no other water at hand people like sailor. Explorers during World War, Two battleships and submarines some both sides. You small seawater purification machines to make sure their crews, they hydrate it later those same issues of move boats and unto islands like the Dutch colony of a robot, which has virtually no fresh water. It's bone dry and surrounded by salty water. It wouldn't be such an appealing place to colonize. If it weren't for all its oil in the nineteen thirties throughout the nineteen fifties. The Dutch made enough money from Aruba as oil industry that they could buy their way out of the fact that there was no drinking water on the island. They use that money to pay for desalinating, and they wouldn't be the only country that would turn oil into water. The end result was basically that they created sort of a waste us in the middle of a place for life, really has no right to exist. I mean, this was an island that had very few vegetation and animals on it just because it didn't really get much rain. And the Dutch were basically able to create a city a small city of workers out of nothing these nation only mates Aruba because of all their oil money today. Saturday Arabia cutter and Kuwait are in the same boat. And that's because one of the challenges of the allegation is that it's really expensive. Remember that tidy freeport, Texas story, we neatly wrapped up for you a little while ago while we're back to ruin it. You're welcome. So Freeport's plant was the first industrial size desalinating plant that was ever built amid states, and it was a big accomplishment. But it wasn't a perfect solution an ultimately closed, and it was forgotten. Here's Jacob Roberts, again, telling us about the shortcomings of Walter badgers. Big plan the price of water at the time was about thirty five cents per thousand gallons. Those the standard price that you'd pay for water in nineteen sixty one America now, even though badger brought the price down a lot with his design. His desalinated water is still costing about one dollar and twenty five cents per thousand gallons, which is you know, an astronaut weekly higher amount compared to regular water that you could just gr-. From the stream or river. So it was expensive. They're also wasn't enough of it. That was supposed to create an output of about a million gallons of freshwater per day. So essentially this plant was a test case to see can we provide the water for an entire city with desalinating plant. I know that a million gallons of water a day sounds like a lot of water, but it was still only a percentage of their water. Remember because even a million gallons a day is not enough water for fourteen thousand people to live off of. But there is still yet. Another reason why the plant closed the thing that happened. That report was the drought finally broke just as these plants were built in response to drought happening. They were shut down in response to drought ending. Chapter four how should science save us from drought? Fascinated by water. I think it's the next frontier. I mean, everybody said we used to fight wars over oil. Now, we're going to fight them over water. That's right, revert. He writes about water in energy for the voice of San Diego and investigative new salad. I asked him if the celebration was the answer to drought some water officials that I've talked to say that desalinating is a perfectly logical solution to droughts and perfectly logical insurance policy. But there is a sequence that I think a good number of people who would concede desalination can be necessary would say needs to happen before you do sound nation. The first is you make sure that everybody's conserving as much as they possibly can. So you drive down demand as much as you can without hurting the economy California's actually gotten pretty good at that. Remember that in nineteen seventy six nine hundred seventy seven southern California cut its water used by fifteen percent. Then the second. Thing you do in not because it's much cheaper. But just because it's kinda more efficient in some ways. Is you recycle wastewater recycling? Wastewater rise talking about capturing and reusing as in drinking the water that you flush down the toilet recycling. Wastewater takes about as much energy deceleration. Does they both have a high carbon footprint, but recycling wastewater doesn't create a problematic byproduct brine, right because if you've been wondering what happens to all the salt that gets extracted by desalinating, it gets dumped back in the ocean. And there's a lot of it, and it's making ocean saltier, which is making desalinating the ocean harder. It's also affecting marine life and probably not in good ways. But we haven't studied it enough to know exactly how so recycling wastewater is a better solution than diesel nation. There's only one problem. The fec. Actor won't San Diego. We had a rough history with recycled wastewater, we have an update to a story that might discuss you. The city council voted to move ahead with a toilet to tap plan. Yummy, which will peer FAI fifteen million gallons of recycled water per day. And you know, where it's recycled from that toilet. Now. That's poopie water calling recycled wastewater poopie water did not help sell it as a solution. And when it comes down to it. It seems like we don't actually want the best solution. We want the most appealing solution. Science only offers up the solutions that our culture can bear. And the culture of San Diego could not bear poopie. I mean, recycled water it got branded as toilet to tap. And that killed this project in the city of San Diego for quite a while number of years. Loose Angeles got one of these plans up and running. But there was enough pushback that the water ended up being only used for air Gatien, even right doesn't. Wanna use the term toilet to tap anymore? Because he says it's unfair. It's become verboten in a pro water recycling circles, and I think that reputation has worn off people are or open to toilet to tap which were not supposed to use that phrase sandiego revived the program in the early twenty tents. The new embellishes goal is a treated wastewater will provide one third of sandy against drinking water. But the stakes are high for the city to get it. Right. There's this question of if an agency takes on doing water recycling, and they screw it up. They would destroy water recycling for generation probably because if if you get fecal material in your water supply because he didn't get the process, right? You can't do a water recycling plant anymore in LA or Santa Clara wherever else they wanna do it. It just kills it for generation because they'll say look those idiots in San Diego what they did. And we don't want that to happen here. So you have to be very careful doing wastewater cycle. And so if you just skip ahead and do diesel you spare yourself the headache? And you know, it might be a nicer ribbon Kim. There's a sort of sexiness to develop Asian everybody that built the desalination plant can say we built the largest salination Saudi in the western hemisphere, and they don't have to deal with the stigma of wastewater recycling. Like, we said the scientific solutions put in practice are the ones that the culture can bear. And that's not nothing. There are huge mental hurdles to making wastewater purification work. We don't just need a science solution. We need a social science solution to help people deal with these hang-ups, the mental equation seems like it goes something like this desalinating equals, conquering nature if we can do it. It means we're smart and strong conserving water equals depriving ourselves. People. Don't like depriving themselves and wastewater recycling equals drinking are on poop. It means. Gross. It makes us feel bad. I'd like we deserve more. Saying that any of this is true. In fact, it's all falls, but the feelings are real. Chapter five Alexis is skeptical. All right. So rigo. I gotta be honest. I don't buy it. All poopie water has the same carbon footprint as de Sal. I mean, sure it doesn't leave brine. But why can't we just choose the less gross option? Why can't we just choose desalination, basically poopie water? I mean 'cause I don't like using that to improve water. But basically recycled water is a more sustainable solution to this. And there are two reasons. One of them is the obvious one that you don't have the byproduct of Brian and the second one is that all that recycle water that you have you don't have to use it for drinking. You can actually give it to the farmers for irrigation. So that they stop using ground water or water from wells, and that frees up all the other water for us to for human consumption only. Okay. I get it. So poopie water sort of like secret conservation. Exactly. And also there's another. Offit in that if you're landlocked you don't eat the ocean. You can do recycle water there. And you have your own supply within your sewers look doing the diesel, it's places by the ocean. So I follow that. But. I get it these aisles and imperfect solution, but there are lots of things that are imperfect solutions why are we so concerned about this one? So here's the thing. So in other waters, increasingly becoming a commodity, it seems like only the rich will be able to afford this water. So this these nation can give a glimpse of the future of the whole narrative of the whole narrative of Likud gates have water is only the rich will be able to have it. And then the pores are gonna be able to suffer. Then desalination gives us a glimpse into what the future might look like only the rich will be able to afford desalinate and that's horrifying. I mean. Lucas doing it all rich countries in the Middle East, like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait United Arab Emirates and these wealthy California cities like Santa Barbara. I actually went there. And there's a Ronald Reagan era train station, by the way, just to give you a mental image of the place, and I talked to Sheila lodge who was the mayor during the big drought in the nineteen eighties lie the way the. The drought was my fault. I don't know if you knew that she didn't actually cause the draft. Oh to have such power. But she was a prison had to fix it. And Santa Barbara especially vulnerable in droughts because of its geography if you look at the map, it's basically an island there amounts in the north in the ocean in the south. It was cut off from the rest of the state in from Elias sources of water by nineteen ninety there were seriously running out of water, they try conservation. But it wasn't enough. When did we really get to considering anything and everything cluding deceleration one proposal to? Use some tugs to bring a. An iceberg down from Alaska. Proposal didn't explain how the melting water would be gotten on. Sure. But ultimately, not drag the iceberg, anywhere. But they did build a really expensive the salvation plan, which they were only able to do because Santa Barbara's a wealthy city. It's not unlike a Roo bind the nineteen thirties when a us oil money to buy these sound ADA water. Okay. Okay. So in this Kevin Costner, what a world scenario you've laid out wealthy. People have all the water because they can afford it and poor people. Don't get that option. Is that what we're saying? The main problem is it's that you can look at these places and say, oh, great. We figured out what we're going to do in the future when there will be even more droughts because ninety nine percent of the world, or I don't I just came up with that number. But most of the world will not be able to afford the celebration soon Sedova exploring actual sustainable solutions to drought. We're putting a very expensive band-aid on the problem. And it's abandoned. It's actually making the cost of drought wars for everyone else. It's using a lot of energy and contributing to climate change. Okay. All right. I'm I'm convinced one more question. And then this interrogation is over. I promise is there. Maybe a chance that desalinated is actually gonna get cheaper. I mean, isn't it just like new technology, and we don't know how it works. So it's expensive now. But down the road will figure it out. The calculus is not that these nations gonna get cheaper. But more that regular water's gonna get more and more expensive. So that's when it'll even out this is the new normal. Chapter six what if we don't even need desalinate? In twenty fifteen the largest desalination plant in the western hemisphere. Opening Carlsbad, California outside of San Diego. The plan is across the street from the beach, and it straight out of a post. There are dozens of surfers catch wage just outside the plant. Entered the plant and right now, we're actually walking past are solved handling Duplan was a huge deal. There were politicians in the TV crews were there unseen. But a few months later, they didn't even need the water. They had to dump millions of gallons into a reservoir, San Diego County had too much water sort of a crazy thing to think that this was really the tail end of one of biggest droughts and hundreds of years in California that we would have too much water. So what happened? The first thing to understand is how send you gets its water. The majority of it comes from pipes connected to the Colorado river and reservoirs in northern California and water from these sources as continually flowed through San Diego's pipelines. You know, it's like you have to have electrical current flowing through switch even when it's off it has to be sort of on standby. So there's amount of water flowing through this pipe, and we couldn't stop it. It's also helpful to understand some of the bureaucracy. In ages called the metropolitan water district controls the water in southern California. And this dig water authority doesn't get along with them and didn't want to rely on them for the water. I'm not sure if it's that they have a dispute with metropolitan water district. They feel like they have to do this politically or or whether they've really done the numbers. So their water security problem might be more political than hydrologic. That's Jane line. He studies water issues in California at the university of California Davis at the same time that sending billing it's the sale nation plan governor Jerry Brown two point, oh is telling the whole state conserve water. And they did and it was working, but San Diego had already signed thirty year contract under diesel plan. They were locked in j Lund says at the city would only have needed to conserve five to eight percent more water to stay afloat during twenty fifty. That's not a lot. In fact, Jalen says deceleration that really? Necessary at all when we've done computer models that had even very extreme forms of climate change. We see desalination used very rarely. Because it's so expensive you try to do other things. I he's making a point we've already made if you're looking for the best economic or scientific solution to drought these celebration is not the answer. But we know that a lot of other things going to making these decisions culture politics, and that wanting to think about Yagi things like poopie water, the yuck factor and San Diego still has too much water. In fact, right now, the dams overflowing. But that these plan isn't going anywhere anytime soon, you're not just going to build a billion dollars facility without some promise that people are going to be buying water from it for the long term. It seems like the nation is here to stay. But you want to keep an eye on it. Because if we're count on this thing, and it doesn't work then we're in trouble. All right Rico. So after all of this reporting, all these months of talking to people and doing research, I don't know what are some parting words of wisdom. What do you wanna leave us with in doing this story? I was frankly, really like surpri I like I kind of side as magic like an every plan that I went to in Santa, Barbara and incendiary go. There was like at the end of the tour. We got to drink some of the water they had a little faucet and you get to drink the sign into water. Well, I'm gonna try this these this is kind of exciting. All right. If it was like magic somehow like he went through that where it went to. And it's now in my water bottle. And actually, I thought that was like really frigging cool. Like if I was like this is magic like just a few minutes ago. This was like in the ocean. And now it's like here, and that felt really cool. I felt like those kids have freeport who were getting their cubs. And there were drinking that water that was just in the ocean. And that really cool. But then when you actually start to think about it, it's and then you actually start to run through the ramifications and all the stuff that goes into this. That's when you start to realize, it is more complicated that it's not that simple. And that. It may be cool solution, and it might make me giddy. Think about it's magic it doesn't mean that it's the most stain -able solution. And remember this deletions is more than a podcast. We're also multimedia magazine, you can find our podcast videos and stories at this deletions dot ORG, and you can follow the signs history. Ans- to toot on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. This story was reported by Rigoberto Hernandez, and it was produced by Mariel car. Rigo? Hernandez MSL participations, I'm Alexis, Patrick, and I'm Lisa very drank. Oh, thanks for listening.

California Freeport San Diego Texas freeport John F Kennedy California Department of water United States Jerry Brown Alexis Patrick Rigoberto Hernandez Mexico science history institute Walter badger Rigo producer Jacob Roberts congress Lisa Cavs
E57 - Projectify: the end of the strategic plan as we know it - Interview with Jeff Schwisow

Zo Routh Leadership Podcast

39:58 min | 5 months ago

E57 - Projectify: the end of the strategic plan as we know it - Interview with Jeff Schwisow

"Welcome to the zely. Routh leadership podcast. You'll source of strategies an insights to make you a better leader influence improve inspire. I this zoe ralph and i have a very special gentlemen on the podcast. Today his name is jeff. Shwee's out and i was just laughing with him before. Because i just think that's the most extraordinary fabulous last name and it's got such a layer to it so apart from his groove last name. Jeff is a strategist speaker mentor and author and he's produced and published his latest book trajectory project fi hub. I think that's projected is the best way to it how to use projects to engage with people on strategy that evolves your business. I love this concept. And i can't wait to tease it out with jeff so jeff. He helps businesses generate exceptional results and make people more powerful force by understanding the art and science of projects. He's worked with some of the world's biggest companies including shell chevron petrochina c. p. b. contractors downer utilities power core and city power as well so heavily into the utility side of things while welcome. Jeff thank you very much. Pleasure bigger zoe. So i haven't done much work in utility sectors. And i'm curious to hear a little bit about your leadership journey so tell us how you evolve through your leadership experience and to where you get to today where you talk about the art and science of projects. I started life as an engineer. Started life like everybody else. But i started my professional life like as an engineer. Mechanical engineer specifically And just might journey took me to construction on once gained the construction engineering arena. I pretty quickly moved into project. Management first managing projects designed projects in the us. Where the world. There is slightly different than it is in the most of the rest of the world quite honestly but then moved into managing engineering design and construction projects when i moved overseas in nineteen ninety eight and then finally got into overall construction project management when i moved stralia early two thousand So always kind of been a student of whatever game. I was playing and with project management. Pretty rigorously studied in applied traditional project management principles and practices However pretty quickly. I learned that those traditional approaches weren't necessarily enough to ensure success. So i started looking forward different ways of thinking around. How do we actually deliver results when we're doing projects and that took me sort of down a path of set of principles that i started using in the projects that i was managing and around about two thousand and seven. I learned that there was this thing called. Lean that Brought practiced to those principles that makes sense but fundamentally it really allowed me to explore this idea of the way to be exceptional in the work that we do for others is actually be created. Exceptional workplaces get people working effectively together. And i'm the more i dug into that world and saw is the improving. The way that work gets done is the way that we've improved the results that we produce for the industry for clients but the people that ultimately are investing in these projects that were being asked to do the more. I said this is something that the industry needs and that sort of drove me to start my own consulting practice and numb. What i learned fairly quickly is when you're in the construction Process improvement game that Most of the work get is on troubled projects. She so many of the many of the of the early the earliest sign moments that i got my practice were projects that were on fire and because there's nothing to drive different thinking crisis and The media need sits behind those crises and so although can pay the bills. It's not a very exciting place to to make a difference in it's not of value the value adding world that. I really wanted to be in. And so i started to realize that i needed to approach the way worked with the organizations. I was working with Differently if i were going to get them to move out of the day to day and start future being more future focused in a way that they apply different ways of thinking and So that started me down this path. Of how how do we actually create transformation change in a world that has people are way too busy for transformational change. How do we get people focused on the future that their cup runneth over so to speak in terms of the data they need their businesses in so that started me down a path of how about. Let's use projects as a way of fixing projects and That sort of a strategic approach for my work started to expand into this idea. Will that sort of strategic thinking can be applied any sort of businesses so me. Let me. just ask this clarification question so taking x to fix pojects so you take your approach to fixing the projects. Is that right absolutely absolutely okay so An and look at it and at the end of the day one of the things that people struggle with is the ability to bring the future in the present. Because there's so much present in their face every single day that if that distinction make some sense yeah and so when we when we talk about using. I use the term projects initiatives activities. However you couch it start breaking things down into small steps and the small steps for me were. Let's let's create a project that gets us to the next place we were. We want to get to terms of evolving. What we're trying to do as opposed to bring completely changed the way you do the business of construction projects because let's say there aren't very many executives that sit down say that sounds like fun undertaking given. I'm already working sixty hour weeks and victim barely. Keep with what i need to keep up with. So so yes this idea of. I was trying to fix the construction project environment. And so let's use projects to apply projects because you're logic able certainly understand that and That vinnie evolves based on conversations with with different organizations. I was getting a chance to work with to save It can be more than just fixing your construction projects. It can be the way you look at your business strategy. As a whole because at the end of the day projects you do. As a business or fundamentally investments so let's maximize star maximizing our investments. Let's let's do some things that we give us a better return out of those project investments and so that we're starting to shake sort of businesses. We want we want to shape. The future of worked with oil and gas companies in the reality is that a chevron shell has absolutely no interest in building a liquefied natural gas plant. They want to sell. Hydrocarbons build that because because that's an investment in their business that gives them the ability to do what it is that they're senior managers shareholder. There exists to do and so that's sort of been. The leadership journey really is kind of kept applying my own thinking in the learning ashley Applying my thinking to the way. I think and in learning against the struggles that i was having trying to lead the businesses that was working with so that kind of thought leadership concept if he will. I saw them say that. Make the change. That i'm trying to make with within those businesses okay so it sounds pretty straightforward from the outset. You know like let's take a project approaching. You set an agenda you make planning implement. So i'm curious What gets in the way of people actually getting the work done. So you talked about you. Wanted to improve the way their work gets done in. You start with projects were on fire. What are the blocks and barriers to people. Doing work better. The the thing that i often like to say is in in the world of doing projects in mrs true of a lot of different areas of business were heavily focused on the scoreboard. And we believe we can affect the scoreboard by focusing on the score. Were in point of fact the way that you affect. The score and the scoreboard is how you play on the field. The at the heart of traditional project management is the belief that we can measure our way to success. Where in fact the way that you make a project successful or i believe execute strategy successfully is that you get good at actually playing on the field so to speak doing the day to day activities that that will produce the results that you're trying to produce you can't affect results by focusing on results. You can only affect results by focusing on on the way that you work together to produce those results and ensure that you focused on the right things. You're starting to manage your time and attention. In a way that you're doing the highest priority activities at any given given time to support what you're trying to achieve either from project result perspective or from the business strategy perspective and so it's really getting people focused in on. How do we work together to ensure a what each of us individually is trying to do on a day-to-day basis is supported by what everyone else around us is doing individually on a day to day basis and starting to connect that all the way up to what is what is my strategic intent. So what am i. Trying to achieve as a commercial outcome. What am i trying to achieve as an overall strategic outcome and start creating linkages right down to what people are doing on a day-to-day basis. Now so that's that's the complexity starts to come in one of the fallacies about business strategy as much as executing projects is. We create a plan. Executes plant well what military strategists have known for a very very long time. is that As to quote. Eisenhower i'm plans are useless planning indispensable because no plan survives first contact with the enemy so that that idea that we need we need to have a dynamic Operational environment that is in keeping with the dynamic. Change the tap winning in in the environment around us if that makes sense yeah so it means being responsive to the given moment as opposed to sticking with a plan no matter what exactly right exactly right in understanding. That change happens in our ability to respond in adapt to changes what makes us good A white knuckled approach to. We're going to hold onto our plan irrespective of of everything that's happening around us doesn't acknowledge the dynamism system and the uncertainty in in the world that exists around us cool to tease out a couple of things here for from you. You talk about some of the key secrets to implementing better. One of them was connecting. What we do on a day-to-day basis back to the strategic intent of the of the plan of the organization and managing time and attention is another key and the third thing. You mentioned which we haven't tease out. At which i'd like to tease out is. How do we work better together. Do you mean around communication jimmy around conflict resolution. What does that look like for you. The working better together one of the things that is true about the modern business environment. Is that most of what we do. Today was born out of the street. Excuse me the scientific management movement that Developed out of the post industrial revolution and that was put in place roundabout the turn of the twentieth century. So most of the way that we organize our businesses fundamentally comes from the early nineteen hundreds and hasn't been hasn't changed very much since that time however when you start to ask people described for me if you will a geometric shape that makes up your business and usually they're going to describe some sort of a triangle with sitting on its base and the doers are at the bottom of that triangle in the leaders managers. Whatever are at the top of the triangle and the way that that hierarchy works from an operational perspective is people at the top of the triangle have direct reports. They tell those people what is expected of intel in assessment. Tell them whether they successfully achieve those expectations in in like russian matryoshka dolls that those triangle sort of make their way all down all the way down to the operational level the problem with that from an operational perspective. Is that when you have people at different parts of the base of that triangle if this shape and your mind Trying to trying to work together. There's some version of it has to go up or down to effectively interact. Keep wanna sorry. That was my phone in the back. Of the i forgot to beg you. Pardon all right so so what. We want a moron effective team environment from an operational perspective. What we wanna do is we want to create an environment where the people that are doing. The work together Actually are responding to each other very very very directly so they're making commitments to one another. They're planning controlling their own work So i i often tell the story of a tech's auckland talk. I heard michael henderson Give in cash. It was two thousand eight or nine. I believe it was But he's a corporate anthropologist so he's literally was trained as as an anthropologist that was his degree and then he actually went out into the field and in studied dumb tribal cultures and then took that some thinking to a corporate environment in. He said that when we talk to people about how would you describe your organization. They described a triangle. You got a tribal culture and you say how. How would you describe geometrically the way that your tribe works in generally speaking describe circle and it's a fairly flat circle and the leaders are at the center of that circle on the top of the triangle and then the people sit around the leaders actually have response specific responsibilities for the way that they make the tribe work so jeff dislike that leaders at the very at the very center where the radius is on the outskirts of the circle. No at the very center But the people that are actually making the tribe work around them and so the an effective organization for my perspective is one where the leader said at the center in their job is to help create that strategic direction to support enable the people around them that are actually translating strategic intent into action and activity in if you will of a whole series of Smaller circles that sit around them that are actually doing projects that are that strategic execution that are translating strategy into things that move their organization into the future And so what what you wanna create in those project. Teams are cross functional groups that are made up of the people closest to where value is created in your organization. So if you're trying to improve an an internal operational approach within your organizations those are the people most directly the boats directly understand the way that operational approach works and potentially have a leader at the center of their little circle. And but that leader's job is not to tell them what to do. It's to support enable them. It's ensure that they stay true to the strategic objective that project has set four and ensure that they kind of the a continuous improvement engine. If you will with within those groups and so those teeing if you will make up the the edges of the circle if you will so organizations in the way i describe it Are inside out outside in as opposed to top down and bottom up few and so it's getting those people that are most familiar with. This is the way the this business works. This is the day to day interaction. i have with customers getting them. Attached to the way that strategy strategy gets translated into operational reality is is the way to create a strategic engine if you will that drives the business forward and then its leadership its role is to ensure your you create a framework for constantly refreshing that strategic view the strategic direction that that the businesses headed because the world outside is constantly shifting and moving of your strategic objectives. Need to shift and move both with. What's happening outside the business and through feedback from your strategic project teams the activities that they're doing experiments that running the the the sort of strategic work the strategic findings if you will That helped to implement that strategy. Moving forward. So i'm curious about this right because i love the organic nature of this. I love the inside outside in concept and that the people that coalface are really doing the implementation of the strategic direction. So my talents with this concept is now that we have cross functional teams and projects. Is that a lot of the clients. I work with are on multiple cross functional teams with multiple projects being implemented at the same time and when they struggle with is competing priorities so and also the person who leads the different projects so they might have three different project managers. They're involved with an leader project themselves and so this juggling of priorities and commitments and visibility of workload is is the two primary challenges. So how'd how'd you help organizations like that who are gone the project route and have cross functional teams but have this complexity about the implementation that causes confusion so one of the things that it's not unique by any stretch the imagination to any one type of business or one any single industry. Most people are struggling with this problem in one of the things that we ask organizations to do when looking at their strategic projects that they're doing is to make sure that the strategic projects that you work on as an organization are the highest priority projects based on strategic value that you have the capacity to give your undivided undivided attention to the have the capacity to complete In as you say the challenge comes in when it when you start talking about workload visibility but if you start getting intentional about saying how how many projects can we actually take on given our day-to-day operational expectations and given these multiple sources of projects. That sometimes coming from different places within the business So it's that constant process of triage is the terminology. I use A strategic project. So you're not trying to do too much and so there is this view by many many organizations that more projects. I start either the more things. I'll finish board the more optically on focused on the sort of things that are improvement or or strategic focused in in point of fact the more things you complete the the more strategic progress you actually make so you want to be very intentional about not overloading your organization with the number of projects that you try to do in. So that's a lot of the work that i do in setting up. A routine of strategic strategic project portfolio is. What i call it But a routine refreshing that portfolio is assessment of. What are your strategic priorities. What are the things that you most need to be doing right now to move you forward in the way they want to go forward. And what your capacity to do those things and it does force organizations Will hold on a second. How many projects are people working on. And what are the source of those projects. So let's let's start getting people people into the tent so to speak. That are making decisions about what what strategic priorities are and start to filter that down to are specific choices on in any given quarter and on i go on kind of quarterly cycle given quarter. What things we work on during that becua- cycle so it sounds like a really intimate knowledge of people's capacity for deliveries. essential here. Because i think this is the part that is missing. In some of the organizations i work with is that they they just have as you say they launch a hundred different projects and expect their team just to stump up and deliver and the team doesn't want to disappoint so they go into overwork mode. Is that your experience to oil worse yet. You get over work mode but but you don't get results you don't get the the strategic outcomes you're looking for say say you. What is what is the least amount. I can possibly do not saying that. People are shirking responsibilities. But if. I want to say that. I accomplished something. What's the least amount. I can do to to demonstrate accomplishment. And now so you really want to be intentional about saying this is this is the outcome that we're targeting. Let's understand each each cycle of projects that we that we move through. What was our capacity. What if we didn't complete. Why didn't we completely. So be and be honest with yourself. We overload our teams. Did we actually achieve what we set out to achieve so forcing yourself into a cycle of self reflection if all it retrospection Retrospectives is what we do at the end of each quarter quarterly portfolio of projects. How did we did. We accomplish what we set out to accomplish. If we didn't accomplish it. what did we it. Why not but we learned from it so if if we are overloading people if they're coming up short because we didn't have the right people involved let's start to understand that in it's more art than science to know what your people's capacity is. You need to be intentional about. I'm gathering that knowledge as as well as moving the business forward and and quite frankly in some cases actually building capacity so you you suddenly ask people to work on a strategic project. Let's not necessarily their day to day job. There's things i have to learn about doing. Projects through probably haven't learned in in doing their their daily operational activity. So you're you're building their capacity at the same time you're moving to business fuller. Okay that makes sense to me so when you talk about project management books it's it's a project management of concept as you mentioned is not a new thing so what's different about your book. Well it's it's a book about projects that actually isn't very much about projects. Be honest with Early or at least not how to do projects. It's really a book about using projects as a vehicle for as i describe it traversing your strategic journey. And so i think i devote a whole two pages or something around pointers in how you might actually carry out these projects. So it's more how to use projects as opposed to do projects and enjoy being pretty specific. About what sort of projects we mean. How how we approach them in ensuring that you're constantly making a meaningful strategic project progress through your projects. Are there any projects. That people should not ever do want. Well what i would say is large transformational change. projects Are are something that nobody should ever take on unless you're really good at projects. All the change management specialists around the world just went. Oh my god here is he. Oh trust me. i'm i'm an anti management guy. And i'm an anti change management by but history with large champs transformational change. Projects is abysmal. Yeah that's it. They just don't succeed very often in more often than not. The reason you do is because you have to And so you're you're playing a pretty high stakes game. I've got a low chance of being successful. And i'm probably doing this thing because if i don't do it on my businesses in trouble so what what i believe absolutely believe is much more important to break down large transformational change in too much smaller. Much more focused pieces the e move through stepwise. Not just because you'll be more effective than in actually executing those smaller projects than you will alarm transformational change project for many many reasons your your skill executing projects. The organizational capacity the execute the project. I mean you got to continue to do your business. You dump a big transformational change project on top of the business. It's very difficult for people actually have the capacity to do it But also you start moving away from this world of fundamentally change. Management is managing people's resistance to change theoretically My belief is that people don't resist change. They resist uncertainty. People are actually pretty good at change. Me where the adaptable creatures on the planet my parents are technologically illiterate and they have smartphones and us facebook. Where are you know. And that's all happened in less than a decade so we're our ability to change in our acceptance of change is pretty good. It's uncertainty around change that we don't feel good about if you actually get people directly involved in the change that you're trying to make and do that in a way that they can start to shape that change And break down some of that uncertainty. Dan you start managing that resistance. You don't eliminated some exist. You start to manage that quote unquote inherent resistance. That happens to change. Because he actually. You're managing the underlying uncertainty around a big transmission change. Does this mean. I'm going to have the job doesn't mean i won't like my job doesn't mean none Gonna be working clients. Happy with me. Now won't be happy with me and the teacher those kinds of questions and inherently come into people's minds when when uncertainty strikes that makes sense and uncertainty is the thing that rattles people's cages and it's very primal sentiment. That's for sure. So i have two questions left for you once the cover of your book. You've got this guy juggling elephants. What's up with that. So when. I'm starting plan my book. I went to to have a cover competition. Just get a book cover concept and i got a number of covers back in one of the designs. Have the juggling elephants imagery on the the final design is actually been tweaks instant but it. It caught my eye because it was very different than anything. Anybody else was stealing and as i started to shortlist my cover designs down to those Most likely to be Eye-catching for lack of a better way of saying i started sharing with friends and colleagues and asking opinions and The juggling elephants one drew more commentary than anything else. In first and foremost it was either imagery. People loved or imagery people hated and that interests me a lot. Because if you hate something you've thought enough about it or it's it's it's it's impacted you at at an emotional level to to generate that kind of response But then also people almost universally tried to translate the imagery in to me so what what sits behind these juggling elephants and so i got all these different versions of what mike government as it related to my book. So you know. Y- elephant in the room was one of those strategies like trying to keep a lot of balls in the air and those balls or as big as elephants strategies is like eating eating an elephant. You have to do online at a time. All kinds of different different versions of what people were perceiving the the imagery on the cover to fit with this idea of project defying strategy. And i started realizing you know in some in some ways. It's good that people are thinking about how the two things together it almost doesn't matter what the designer had mine when he designed it or or i saw on it when when i chose it. That's what i want people to do with the ideas in the book To start to understand how these concepts might be applied to them. How might it translate into their their worlds and If they engage with the imagery on the outside at at on initial glance in that sort of way hopefully they would engage with the ideas within the book in a similar way and and how might leaders make that linkage between the relationship that exceptional workplaces have with the future direction of their their businesses and started trying to put these concepts together and have meaning around it. I like that. Those are great metaphors everywhere and i like the fact that you've got this provocative cover that can be translated in many different forms. I love the fact that you weren't prescriptive about it. That's great and try to figure out what the designer actually had in mind when when whitney submitted the cover he's he's romanian and he actually doesn't speak english very well so we. We tried to communicate back and forth. The google translator and i never quite was certain exactly what he had in mind. That's okay so last question is practical tips for a business leader manager. What can they start doing right away. The first place we start is with what i call creating strategic roadmap so understanding your strategic intent Connecting that to what sort of improvement activities. Could we be doing that. Would help us realize that strategic intent and then what are the projects. What are the practical things initiatives that we could be putting in place that would help us sees those strategic impro- malpractice fees and in very simple terms if if leaders always did this is our strategic intent the strategic intent for our business over the sm. Our our current Planning horizon for better way of describing it. Let's find the three best projects that we could be doing. They would help us. Attack the improvement areas that would allow us to get to that strategic content. let's around those three best projects. Let's bill cross functional closest to the work face teens that attack those projects over the next three months create those projects in a way that we have a very specific outcome we're trying to achieve and then support them in a way that allows them to move that forward and then just rents rather rather repeat so to speak in at the end of that time out of that go. Did we achieve what we tried to achieve in. What did we learn from that. And now let's do it again so just starting that to get that sort of rhythm if you will around. What are the three best things. We could be doing strategically and who the best people that to allow us to do that. In a way that we'd connected to what's happening at the value adding front our business where the customer is where the The operational activity were trying to improve his where the product development activity lives. Three things. what. What can we do with three things. The next three months and endless build teams that are closest to the work that we're trying to improve. That's great and i love the fact that the three months just sounds like. It's a doable timeframe. It's not overwhelming and that kind of helps contain the scope of the projects doesn't so it doesn't become bigger than ben her. you know. we've only got ninety day. So what can we pull off in this timeframe exactly exactly and then you know and then once again what we learned from that. So so we apply that learning to to the next ninety days and and continuing step forward Just one little by little by little and then you can start to see okay. Where might we expand. Where where might we use what. We're learning to feedback into our strategy to redefine priorities and redefine our our strategic focus in this country. Mostly you you start to engage people and you engage them by giving them something to be engaged in you and the fact that you have very short single focused project that progress drives on some sort of intrinsic motivation. Engine within your people as well okay. That was cool. We we got something done. Let's let's go get something else done. Yeah i like it. I like it jeff. Thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes. Which will be zoe. Route dot com slash podcast slash projects to your book and to your website so people can go and check out your juggling elephants and get a sense of the projects that you've been working on since you want yourself into the consulting land at you so much always my pleasure. Thank you very much are.

jeff zoe ralph Shwee shell chevron petrochina c sixty hour Jeff michael henderson zoe vinnie chevron Eisenhower ashley jimmy auckland intel confusion us mike government fuller Dan
86. This Tax Season Get #Hired at Intuit

VirtForce Launching Virtual Careers

1:03:06 hr | 5 months ago

86. This Tax Season Get #Hired at Intuit

"It's virtual salary W2 comes with amazing benefits and incredible employee culture. Are you ready to join? When a fortune one hundred kids best places to work in this episode where chatting with our employment partner into it to an end to learn about their three hottest career opportunities that complement your military lifestyle. Welcome to the force podcast our show helps active duty military spouses plan birth careers each week. We'll be uncovering the secrets of virtual work to help get you hashtag hired if you want income sustainable from Chicago, where in the world this is the show for you. We are bringing you everything from juicy job opportunities to advise on how to glow up for a virtual interview birth. And now let's meet our host. She's the changemaker responsible for getting over 700 military spouses, hashtag hired and making a $15,000 impact in the military Community effort force founder professional speaker. Remote staff augmentation specialist Visionary. Here's our host timberhill vert for his family. I'm so excited to bring into it again to you in 2020 Dodge. This company is totally dedicated to their military initiatives. They have ingrained it into the fabric of their culture and they took the time to had this long conversation with us about their three hottest job opportunities and why they apply to military spouses and service members. I cannot wait for you to hear this full episode. We recorded this live in front of a live audience on Tuesday Night Live, October 20th. These opportunities are still open. They are still hot job opportunities. It is time for you to act and share them with your friends without further Ado. Let's Dive Right In and meet with our three guests from into it. Hello Bert Forest. Happy Tuesday Night Live. It's your host and Community leader. Kimber Hill. We've got an incredible show plan for you tonight. As you can see I am not alone. We have three incredible guests. So one of our favorite employment Partners is into it. They are the proud parent of TurboTax and QuickBooks. So if you are a Turbo Tax or QuickBooks customer or you've ever done the QuickBooks certification, these are some of the team members who keep that ship sailing. So we're excited to have them we're meeting off three into it leaders tonight and I'm going to introduce all of them in just a moment and they are going to talk to us about mavi which is the military and Veteran initiative at into it and we're going to chat about two incredible job opportunities at into it that are really perfect for the vert Force Community wage. If you're looking for remote work, this is something you need to be tuned into. So let me go ahead and introduce our speakers briefly and then we will get into the meat of our conversation. And so first we have Karen brush she is the head of military and Veteran initiative at Intuit. Knobby. She's also a former US Navy pilot, which is really cool carrying you want to say hi. Hi. I'm just big thank you for interviewing into it today for this very excited to be here. We're excited to have you down next. We have our returning guest. You may remember her from last year. Her name is Karina Deckard. She has seven seasons of experience leading full hiring efforts for Tober TurboTax live. So Carina, please tell everybody hello. Hello. Thank you for having me again. I'm looking forward to this evening. Yeah, we're so excited your back. It's nice to see you. Again. Thank you. And we have a new guest this year Blair dribbon. He comes from an extensive military family and he's very excited not be supporting vert forest in the military initiatives that we work on here. He has been supporting into it for about six years and he focuses on hiring for QuickBooks. You want to say hi to deliver it first Community favorite sports Community really glad to be here and looking forward to the conversation this evening. Awesome. So the way that we are going to to do this nice night is we're going to talk to everyone individually about you know, what it is that they bring to the table and what it is that they do for into it. So with that being said, I am going to start off with Miss Karen before we get into our conversation vert Forest. I have a couple of psa's for you all so number one off. We're going to hold all of our questions until the end. If you have questions, you can still put them in the comments real time. We have a vert Force Team Member watching the comments right now and she's going to be collecting all of the questions and we when we get to the very end of our live stream, we're going to bring everybody back on screen and answer all of the questions at one time. The second PSA for you is that if you want to share your identity, there is a link up above my head in the description of this video and it just has a little off hand next to it. So if you will click the link next to the little hand, it will allow us to see who you are when you're commenting so we can address You by name. Otherwise you're just going to come back is anonymous which is also fine. If you prefer that the two positions, this is the final PSA the two positions were talking about tonight the non credentialed tax associate position. And the QuickBooks live bookkeeper position we have links for you to go apply and get your interview scheduled in the description above my head there bit ly liquid we shortened them to just make them as small as we could and so when you're ready and you want to go apply for those positions, you can click the links right above my Noggin. All right. So that being said, let's dive in I have so much to learn from Karen and I'm excited to to share her story with you Karen Welcome to our live stream tonight. Let tell us how you made the transition from u.s. Navy pilot to Leading mavi at into it. I'd love to learn more about that. Absolutely. So today we'll just work it backwards. I am a principal technical program manager with into it. So Avi is part of my day job and it was a long journey to get here big passion projects similar to what you do verbal Force. I really wanted to help wage. Veterans with their transition because I personally really struggled with the transition. I didn't realize what it was going to take to get into the commercial world after I had been in the military wage and so working backwards it was getting to where I am right now today took years and so part of my hope is that I can help others not have it not take quite so long as they transition. That's a really great point because transition can take a while and and we try to prepare the vert Force Community to understand that when you're looking for remote work, especially going to settle down and because it's going to take some skills. It's going to take time but I love that you're working on making it quicker and easier like it should be it was a lot of you just don't know what you don't know if you're in the military a long time. So I'll go back to to where it started. I I'm a retired Navy Commander. I flew helicopters for the Navy for ten years active duty e And then I had ten years and research before I retired during the Reserve. I actually worked in commercial in the commercial field and even then it was kind of a tough transition, but I had done my initial Navy see tourist board the USS Nimitz which is a large aircraft carrier for those who aren't familiar did a lot of overseas tours and then was very fortunate to get to fly with the Marines and a different aircraft for 3 and 1/2 years as a flight instructor and during that time. I started to look at. Hey, it's time to start having a family. What would that look like? How could I transition so I did some initial preparation the sense I got an MBA while I was a flight instructor and I got a job right out of the military, but the only took place I could really get looked at was the government Consulting type agencies because I had a clearance it was an easy transition. We did a lot of DOD military acquisition type work wage. But I really wanted to move more commercial and I was I had left the Navy completely was not even in the reserves and I made my made it three months at my new day job before I realized I had it had been years since I had been away from military. And so I joined the reserves that same year and started doing a combination right between the drilling work that you do with the reserve units and working commercial and eventually worked my way over to Qualcomm, which is a wonderful company here in San Diego and I was at Qualcomm for twelve years and they're cyber security jobs. And before I came to into it almost three years ago. And again, I came to end to it my Qualcomm division actually had a lot of military, so I wasn't that far away and I was still in the research and I was really ready to make that big jump into something. I hadn't done before commercial and came to into it and again realized I that was the farthest I've ever been away from home. Military and Veterans and so are looking around and got involved with our yeah r e r g employees very cruel. Sorry. So I'd like to to check with our listeners and our viewers right now. If you if you can relate to Karen story or if you're coming into a period of transition, let us know in the comments or if you're affiliated with the Marines or the Navy let us know and the comments we would love to hear from you. So, all right. So you do more than one thing at into it. You're a technical program manager and you're also took Bobby is like a passion project. So could you give me an overview of what is mavi? And what is the one into it millery military program at into it at home and packed of that program. Excellent question. So I'll start with some obvious our military and Veteran initiative and you can read more about it. If you go to into a military our page is they're very proud of that page. We just launched a year ago. So this is a big deal for us. We're coming up on our our one year in review and it's the initiative that we have that's run by our business. So we have two different military groups here. I'm running both of them, but they're for different purposes. So we have our intimate military Network, which is all of our volunteers. It's part of an employee Resource Group. We have a mission to educate recruit and Mentor. So it's really focused on our community within into it part of our week are giveback initiatives volunteer and our mission is provide all veterans and their families with the opportunities to translate their skill-set. So to grow develop and Thrive it into it through our pillars of Education recruiting And mentoring, so that's our time. But but and so that's the network. We also have Matthew which he mentioned and it was our one intimate military program that we started last year. We looked around the company and realized there were a lot of great military initiatives. We couldn't tell a cohesive story. There were a lot of different things happening. And so the purpose of the military veteran initiative is to pull together that cohesive story and really focus on three things Community jobs and financial empowerment. I love that black community jobs and financial empowerment. So do you believe that you're telling more of that cohesive story now by bringing these programs together? Yep, we're getting there. It's you know, of course we have we have very high high standards for what we want to go with this and we feel like we just got this up and running but there are business-led pill birth of the biggest differences as we have executive teams involved all the way up to the top that are working this into how they run the business so becomes more within the fabric of the company not just to stand off one alone. Hey, we think this military program would be good. We are across the company in all of our business units looking at how we can help veterans and military families big big emphasis military spouses this year as well and want to make sure that those opportunities are available and that they know about them. So of course is part of that. We have all of our job opportunity initiatives that were creating a full-time remotes remote plus training they're going to talk about that here in a little bit. We have grand or philanthropic efforts than we had before. It came in at great timing. We partnered with an MFA during the Cove it at the very beginning. We just had a recent were in San Diego huge explosion aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard and we were able to do some quick turnaround fundraising and philanthropy to help all of the sailors and their families who are impacted. We have a great new Financial Empowerment initiative. We partner with bunker Labs. We're going to help veterans and military families become entrepreneurs start small business and educated get trained learned all of those things that they don't know TurboTax neat product itself. Last year was the first year. We had the product free-for-all enlisted ranks for active-duty and reserve and National Guard. So those are some of the things I'm doing. So TurboTax is free for all enlisted ranks. I'm going to say that again everyone listening. That's a big. Yeah. He didn't know I love that you partner with bunker Labs bunker Labs does great work in the eighth inning and service member Community. There's a huge chapter in Tampa, which is close to me and they have really impacted my life personally and impacted fruit Force as well. So yeah, that's a great partnership to be involved in so you were talking about Hobbies e r g Community Network and activities. How does that play out and your day today at into it is it's just something that you're keeping on the Forefront of every project or what's the strategy to to to bring that into fruition great question. So the strategy is when we talked about we want it in the DNA of the company or woven in the fabric where it's always on the Forefront. We have a several I want to say more dead. Present a current events, right all of the diversity and inclusion initiatives. It's included included there. The military naturally is one of the most diverse groups are going to find whether it's race religion nationality, you know, you don't have to be United States citizen to serve in our military and so it's greatly diverse. And so we do a lot of work there. So from a day-to-day you'll see anywhere between the volunteers groups especially around certain times of year. We plan out functions across the calendar we partner with other groups employee resource groups for all kinds of things. So we do leadership seminars for last year. We had a team of Special Forces come in along with a Navy Seals and they came in and did a leadership seminar. It was fantastic was for the whole company. Anybody could come with standing room only they felt some pretty great stories as you can imagine. How are you had a great team of female veteran leaders in our community come in they were graduates. We partner with the dog. A d School of Business at UCSD and they are they're veteran graduates and they came in and told some stories that would just transitioned stories specifically that were just took a little heartbreaking when you hear about what you can do in the military and how hard it was to transition and the level of responsibility and what people think you can do or what people think they know about the military life. So they sold some pretty amazing stories to so always in the community. We're always doing something. Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of activities and kind of networking set up so that you can continue to keep it woven within the community within the company culture which is a difficult thing to do and may I know it can be difficult with a large organization but I love how into it makes a large organization feel small and feel like like every voice counts and I always really enjoy working with each of you. So if we need to ask this question to Karina we can and we can transition to chatting with Karina. But my question for you is how is the military and Veteran initiative and the one into it military program. How are they connected to these turbo live opportunities and our QuickBooks live opportunity that we're going to be chatting about tonight. And why is the military spouse Community important? This is great. Okay bunch of questions. I'll come back up to Windows. We started off as the one into a military program and you'll see our video on our website about that. And then we Rebrand wage as military and federal initiative earlier this year. So that's the we use both of those interchangeably how we are tied into these amazing opportunities is because one of our pillars wage is misled pillars in the mavi group is our talent acquisition team and they have been amazing and they have done things. Like what we're doing today for one is reaching out and making sure people are aware of the opportunities. But also we're partnering with a company called psychic armor to also help train are hiring managers and our Recruiters on how to read a military resume how to help the veterans transition and we haven't asked out to all of our hiring managers is to interview a veteran and Military spouses and that's a big deal right now because yeah for a dog Conval a fintech company, you know and you're used to seeing a certain on a resume. So when you see military come true, it's very challenging to be able to translate that. If you don't have that experience and change our town acquisition team among these opportunities are also prepping our company and getting us better prepared to do those interviews. Yeah, can we get some Kudos going from our listeners and our viewers and the chat for into it for taking into consideration what it actually means to understand and interpret a military resume, especially as a military spouse, who knows that resume gaps can be you know, the the bane of your existence what from pcsing from Duty Station train station and I just want to say thank you and I hope that all of our listeners and viewers will show you some love on that. That's huge. Angie says woohoo. Thank God one more thing and that space. We have a program called into it again. It doesn't mean that you worked it into it into it. Again is for all of our families out. There are spouse to have stopped working in the workforce to raise their family and they want to come back to the workforce and we have a whole program here outside of the two that we're talking about today that do that as well for into it. So A lot of Opera just amazing. Yeah, that is truly amazing. And I would love to learn more about into it again. We should link that in the comments later. If you could be email that over to me after our conversation with that. I would love to bring on Karina, but I want to give you a moment to let me know if there's anything else that we didn't discuss or that may ask you about that. You want to share before before I bring on Karina and talk about that TTL opportunity. Let's bring I have I could talk all day about this. I think we should bring on Karina cuz there's opportunities that are really important part and then I can answer questions at the end if there's any questions Okay, great. Let's bring her up and hi Karina. Welcome back. Hello. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for chatting with us. I'll put you down in the queue and we'll bring you back for questions at the end. Karina excited to have you you back you were a first-ever into it guests and you're telling me you're really funny story earlier about your daughter was sliding you notes under the door last year, which I think we can all yet so many of us can relate to here. So what did you leave off working from home? Yeah. I know. So what did you think about what Karen was sharing with us about integrating, you know that the military program with the TurboTax life opportunity that you have that you guys have for store and it makes me proud to be of a part of a company that really values people veteran military spouses. So it's all of them on our end a paternity for folks to be able to have the option to work log. We well being a traveling spouse or I mean, I think that's just amazing. Yeah, it being able to work remotely while being, you know, living that transient lifestyle. I think you hit the nail on the head right now. It's so important. This is Britney and Leslie from the middle spouse Coffee House podcast. You're listening to the vert Force podcast this podcast helps you on your career Journey no matter where you are after you have taken that journey, and you are tired and you need to laugh come on over to Mel's house club house. We're we're serving up last after you've listened to hurt Parts podcast where they can help you. You can bring your resume to us, and we'll give you money on professional advice find the male spouse Coffee House podcast on your favorite podcast playing platform. You can also visit our website at Mills. Coffee house.com, and now back to college and the Virgin forest team. Need help with your resume vert Force has your back listen to our resume boot camp series which covers episodes 47 through 60 of this show play them in chronological order to build a winning resume tailored to the virtual job market resume, boot camp also offers a subscription-based online course and private Community learn how you can opt in to our live trainings and resume critiques at bit. Ly forward slash P - b c. So let's go ahead and dive into the TTL opportunity. Could you explain to The Brute Force Community? What is t e l? Yes, so it's TurboTax live. I guess that's just another fancy name for TurboTax. But it is America's number one tax preparation provider and all of this is the work that we do it's literally remote. So we have anywhere from Tax Associates with which are non credentials and tax experts which are also credential folks. They all assist our customers off remotely from the comfort of their own home and we provide training. Yeah, we providing equipment and the way that the that it works in the sense of taking the cost from our customers a combination of video and phone. So the laptop that each person or each agent is provided has Amazon connect. So that's why that's how the calls are routed in now for taxes. I will tell you that it's a non credentialed position. Meaning that all you really need is your pizza in which is your personal tax identification number what we ask is that will provide training on home. Use our systems are products, but we do ask for at least a minimum of three seasons of paid tax preparation experience and or having to do 30 returns per tax season wage tax expert roll. It does require an active credentials such as a c p a t a r enrolled agent or if you're a j d you must be a practicing attorney along with having your personal education number for that. I'll tell you for both girls. Okay. So folks have them they're still helping out our customers essentially the same way. However, the credential tax expert will be patient. You take it up a notch in the sense of they'll have the opportunity to sign off on customers tax returns because they have their credentials. Whereas The Tax Associates. You're still answering all kinds of tax questions and we don't expect everyone to know all of these tax questions up front. So you'll have an opportunity to do research when you're with your customer whether it's due using the IRS website or Google are mad. Do provide a wealth of resources during training so that you can successfully help out our customers and on trust me. I mean, we don't want anyone to try to sell. I don't know that answer. I do know that answer so you will do the research, you know, we're a tech company and we've got the resources available at your fingertips. So we'll provide the training how to you know, what resources to utilize wage, you know, and and we can't train everyone on the type of questions that come through cuz we get questions from A to Z from all 50 states, right? So right that's Idaho stops in a nutshell. Go ahead. Okay, I don't want to oversimplify but the way that I perceive these two opportunities is you have one position that's non credentialed and you have one position that is credential correct. They're both supporting TurboTax live and U-Boat you provide training for both you provide equipment for both and you have an incredible resource birth. As far as you know, having managers and other staff members who are there to help because you guys are a tech company and everything is right there at your fingertips. Absolutely and for the non credentialed position, you need about three seasons of tax experience with about 30 tax returns per season and for the credentialed position, you need either you're enrolled agent home. So is it a lot just want to carry certification license? Okay. That's what I was getting hung up on your CPA or you need to be a practicing attorney. Correct? Right? So two incredible opportunities with TurboTax live, are they both customer-facing phone and video? Yes, both of them are correct? Okay, and and one of our comments commenters and it were holding questions until the end but one of our Facebook users here, it looks like they actually landed one of these roles and said I was really nervous to go online job. Video, but it wasn't that bad actually. Yeah and and honesty to that point a lot of the people are concerned about video, but I'm going to tell you this it's really just the size of a quarter. It's really tiny. So yeah, it's not you know, and it's it's and I'll tell you this the customer gets to decide if they turn the video on or off most customers are the ones who are not the agents. That's usually every way around. Yeah, I'll say I've used it as a customer before I was a customer and opted into the back to the level where I could have a CPA review and I had a video call with a CPA and you're right it he's just he was just very tiny and the top of my screen he couldn't see me but I could see him and he was just talking to me through my tax return and I loved it. It was such a great experience. Well, good. See there you go. Yeah. So what are the key benefits you get? From joining the network of into it. So besides working from home, you build your own schedule based around the the business the operating hours of operation. So during the tax season, we do operate 7 days a week between 5 a.m. And 9 p.m. Pacific. So you go you're you're the one creating your work schedule through a portal you get to decide what day you want to have off on your control of that kind of like the Uber model. One thing we do ask is just from minimum commitment of twenty hours per week. And then there I mean if you want to sign up for more, you know, it's there we do offer for the option for 401k and then also a free copy of TurboTax and product discounts for any other products besides TurboTax with into it and that I will mention though it is it's a seasonal position. So it's strictly just for the tax season so we don't offer medical benefits, but we have in lieu of that, you know other benefits that we can offer for the season or roll. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. So while we're on the subject of benefits, can we talk about that incredible certification program you're offering right now? Absolutely. So for our taxes six kids anyone that does get hired they will get invited to participate in a program that we call pro-death. It's a development program to help you obtain your roles agent license. It would be a threat. So it's no cost to you. And the benefit is you, you know of a cyst don't have to pass the exams to get them enrolled agent license and then you get connected with a specific recruiter page that will walk you through next steps to be able to go from a tax associate to a tax expert position. So you still have to interview for it, but I'll tell you the fact that into it is paid for you to not go through that enrolled agent program that speaks volumes. So it's a great encouragement for our tax associate that would have somebody just didn't have the time or didn't have the resources into it provides it all dead. Be this pro project program to get your license. So I think that's huge. It's you know, the fact that it's for seasonal roll that into it's been this Autumn. I think it's amazing. A lot of people take really they take advantage of this. Yes. There's the time commitment just study but it's so worth it in the end. Oh, yeah. I mean it is a huge perk the EA license not you know, it's not inexpensive to get but it's so important that you do have it and if you want to grow and your career in finance and and and tax support, especially with an organization back into it, this is such an incredible opportunity definitely or you to jump into yeah. So if you have questions for Karina, we'd love for you to put them in the comments. I'm seeing some feedback coming through regarding questions about requirements. So we're going to take questions at the very end. So if you have anything specific for Karina go ahead and put it in the comments off. And one of our team members will collect it and make sure we get your questions answered. So please put your questions in the chat in the comments for us and also the link to apply for this position these two positions that Karina is talking about is in the description above my head. So just click the description button for this chat and go to the non credentialed taxes. So say yet link and go ahead and put your information in so that you can find out if this is the right opportunity for you and speak to your recruiter at into it Carina. I want to bring on but need to chat about the QuickBooks live position. But before I do that, is there anything else that you'd like for me to share know? I think just thank you for having me here again, so hopefully I can help answer any questions that anybody else may have talked about these roles. Okay. Awesome. Well, I'm going to pull you off the screen and I will pull the layer on and we'll bring you back on when we do our questions at the end. It's thank you. All right. Thanks Karina. Hey Blair. Hey Kemper. Hey, how's it going? Going? Pretty good enjoying listening long here. We're happy that you're here with us tonight. Do you want to give us a little bit about your background and how you transitioned into supporting QuickBooks live at into it? Yeah, absolutely and ever heard putting me here today and for everybody listening, thanks so much for all the sacrifice you made through service in our military, especially to the military spouses as well. It's really amazing. Um, so yeah, I've been supporting QuickBooks live for a little over a year prior to that at Intuit supporting all contractor hiring for functional roles, and I'm really excited about the QuickBooks lives positions and its potential impact to the veteran community and or military spouses. Yeah, I am too. I'm particularly excited about this one because we didn't get an opportunity to get it in front of our meal spouses last year. I think we did but it was very brief. And may I know that we have a lot of bookkeepers in this organization and I know we have a lot of military spouses who are launching that bookkeeping career and I know you guys are doing high-volume hiring right now for it. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, just historical context. We've launched QuickBooks live last August 2019. And then we've hired approximately AM 1200 virtual remote bookkeepers for QuickBooks live. So we are continuing to grow and continue continue to hire classes each month ranging from twenty-five up to a hundred live QuickBooks, like bookkeepers per month and listeners service members transitioning service members Mill spouses. Why can't log Bu, right why can't you pick up a remote bookkeeping career with QuickBooks live? It's an incredible tool. Everybody's using it. The certification is amazing. So yeah, that's my question for all of our listeners. But Blair. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what is QuickBooks live? Because when we think about into it and we think about em out into its, you know, I'm going to call it into its children. We've got TurboTax. We've got meant we've got QuickBooks QuickBooks is very different from TurboTax. So, can you give us a little bit of background to what is it? And how how is working for QuickBooks different than working for TurboTax? Sure. Yeah, I'd love to see like the QuickBooks online product has been around since 2001 and really spawned the QuickBooks desktop offering and it's really bookkeeping software for small and medium-sized businesses. So those are our our customers and the QuickBooks lives roll. About cuz we wanted to change the way that people maintain their books or do their bookkeeping and you know, we took a page out of the TurboTax live notebook and being able to offer these experts Services virtually dead. So the QuickBooks slide bookkeeper roles at a high level is it's an offer of live bookkeeping services to our QuickBooks Online customers who are the small and medium-sized businesses and it really allows our customers wage to spend less time doing their books and more time on making their business prosper and at the other side of it allows us to employ individuals all over the United States in a part-time remote control capacity. Um, and so we think that's something special and and even more important in times like these right now, I think it's important as a business owner. We use QuickBooks. We use QuickBooks and it's been incredibly helpful for us implementing our business model and implementing payroll and making sure that our W-2 employees their taxes are taken care of it. It's been great. Yeah. So what are the go ahead I'm going to say, you know as a small business owner. You probably might have wage. It's like, you know how to run your business but doing the books might be challenging sometimes right or doing the payroll might be challenging and so the fact that we're able to offer these live bookkeeping services to our customers wage is really helped them out a lot and some were really proud of and and looking forward to continued growth. It is and you want someone whose core competency is bookkeeping to be used with an organization whose core competency is bookkeeping and I think a lot of entrepreneurs face that you you you know, what your core competencies are. And what is that you're good at and that's not necessarily doing the books like you just said, so can you describe to us? What are the key benefits that a team member would get from joining QuickBooks live? Yeah. Absolutely. So the positions are year-round part-time remote controls. The positions would need to be worked Monday through Friday during the QuickBooks Online regular business hours, which is 6 a.m. To 6 p.m. Pacific and same benefits. There is that we offer three different types of schedules in terms of hours per week. So you can choose to work a twenty-hour week a 20-25 our week and a 29 hour a week job. And we have coinciding schedule options below each of those offerings. So there is some flexibility. Although we do have set shifts, but we found out that the ships that we offer do tend to fit in with a lot of folks are interested in regardless of what times are there in within the United States. Wow. Yeah. It's really awesome and some additional benefits are it's a W-2 roles. So there's an hourly wage rates for these roles since there year-round. We're actually able to offer medical dental vision benefits. There's a 401K with a very competitive match there is wage you get your birthday's that they pay day off to celebrate you get into a product discounts great and there's also a year-end performance-based incentive bonus as well. That's amazing. You get your birthday off paid you get a bonus. You can pick between twenty hours twenty five hours or twenty nine hours totally remote and there was more in them but it just sounds like an incredible opportunity and our comments are blowing up right now. Angie says did you say W-2 that is amazing? Yes. Yeah. They do hire a W-2, which is I believe all of these positions are salaried and W twos that correct, correct? Yeah, which is probably why into it made the list of top Fortune top 100 places to work. All right, probably one of the reasons why and yeah thought for sure. All right. So what specific QuickBooks live job is currently open. So just for everyone's reference. It's going to be in the description above my head. And what does the girl entail what is required to land that role? Yeah, so we have four different levels that we hire for and they really it's the same position but it just varies off your level of bookkeeping experience your professional experience with QuickBooks online and how well you perform throughout the interview process. So there would be an initial phone screen with a QuickBooks live across if that one will you would do a virtual interview interview and then after that we would follow back up to extend you an offer and walk you through the onboarding and hiring process and some of the main core competencies wage. We're looking for obviously is a bookkeeping and accounting background. So professional experience doing that. If you have a four-year degree in accounting or CPA or cpb that's some added washes there for sure. Obviously, we're looking for individuals who also have professional experience using the QuickBooks Online software. Yeah, which is is easy to gauge wire that experience right it is yeah and you know, we can also provide some helpful links and guidance for these individuals to become books proadvisor certified and that's another way that we're off for our customers that they're connecting with an expert that certification process if you don't have it, but maybe you have QuickBooks Online experience that process only takes about eight hours. A lot of people split up over a couple of days off. Um, but it's a it's something that definitely helps them along the way. Well now did that decrease since last year. I thought it was 12 hours last year. Maybe you guys enhanced the program or maybe I was just wrong last year. Yeah, you know, it could depend on how quickly you move through it I suppose but it should be for new certification should be around be right around eight hours. And then you take the final exam if you're just renewing your over year. So you have a 2019 certain you're looking to regain 20/20. It really just addresses the year-over-year changes with the software offering and that takes about 30 minutes. So do you need to have that to land this role or is that something you can get certified after your higher So currently it is a requirement of the QuickBooks Online provides the certificate. However, we are still happy to phone screen interview individuals under the premise that they know that they would have to pass in Rome and receive the certificate prior to joining. So it's something that we can work simultaneously with candidates on while they're going through the process and we're happy to do that. that's amazing Okay, so What I would love to grab from you is a link to that certification. I believe we already have it. But I'm just going to double check my resources after the show tonight and make sure that we have it so that anyone who is interested in getting the QuickBooks Online certified. Am I saying it correctly. Is it QuickBooks Pro certified QuickBooks Online proadvisor certification? Okay, QuickBooks Online proadvisor certification. You can get it in less than eight hours. And you know, it's so funny that you bring this up because we're currently producing a series called Joseph occasions that make you more marketable and we're doing an episode on this one. So I'm excited that we're having this conversation now. Yeah, I want to make sure that the Brute Force Community has quick access to that so you can get your certification and Atlantis roll with QuickBooks live. One thing I'll add to that is it's free. It just takes your time and effort to do. Right. So the best investment you can make in yourself right time and effort. So listeners and viewers if you have questions for Blair, let's go ahead and get those in the comments. Now, I would love to ensure that we get your questions about QuickBooks live answered when she moved to questions in just a few minutes and remember the link to apply to the QuickBooks live opportunity is in the description above my head. It's listed as the QuickBooks live bookkeeper position Blair before we move into questions. Is there anything that you want to share with the Brute Force community that we haven't discussed yet? Yeah. Just one thing I'll share specifically for military spouses seems like there's quite a few on listening right now. It really is a great opportunity for individuals like that where you might live in one state for two or three years then you know, you get stationed at another state and not moving around quite a bit. You can do this job from anywhere within the US so it's it's a really great opportunity for somebody who wasn't going to be able to go into an office on a regular base. This isn't located near brick-and-mortar office. So that's why we're really happy to try and hire as many military spouses as we can for this type of opportunity. Awesome. Thank you so much. I'm glad that you took a moment to do that and acknowledge. How many male spouses are are watching and listening to marry then you're right. It is one of those mobile-friendly opportunities that you can grow with each overtime, which is what I love about it and why I'm so excited to bring it to vert Force. All right, I believe we're ready to move into question. So with that being said, I'm going to remove our on-screen graphic. So give me just a moment to pull that off so we can see everybody's awesome faces, and I'm going to bring back Karina. And I'm going to bring back Karen. And we're going to we're going to quad screen it here. Yeah, we did it. One second here. All right, so listeners and viewers. We are ready to take your questions. We have a team member Missy who is running mission control on questions for us this evening. So Missy has posted our first question and she says regarding the TurboTax live position Maria Calderon asks, is it required to be a US citizen? Yes, unless you or and or if you have I don't know what you call a permit but otherwise because these are seasonal. Yes. Seasonal so yes, Maria Calderon, it is required to be a US citizen for this position. If you have any other questions, be sure to get those in the comments while we are here with Iraq into it Representatives. Our next question is from Heidi Barker. Hi Barker asks, since these are W-2 can our community members in California apply. Absolutely. Yes, honey. So for those of you who are listening and you're not quite sure how this may apply to you. I believe I forget the name of the law, but there is a law in California that stipulates. I believe all California and residents must be W-2 employees. So since this is a W-2 position if you are stationed in California Camp Pendleton, and there are so many bases there. This is a great opportunity for you because it does comply with that regulation and you are all set to apply for that, Missy. Do we have additional questions? Let's see here. I'll scroll up. We had a lot of comments. I'll pull these on screen while we're reviewing them. All right. So we had a few some feedback. Let's see here. Christina. Donnelly says I graduate with my masters in Accounting in one week. I am feeling a little discouraged since I lacked The Experience most employers are looking for I'm changing careers. I have been in the education field for the last eight years. So that's an interesting situation for her to be in I'll bring her comment up so we can all read it Christina. I just want to say congratulations on getting that Master's in accounting. That's a big step and potentially care and you might be able to help her with that back to what did you call the program earlier can find the into it again program and although into it again right now. It's mostly focused on engineering roles. That being said it's not exclusive to engineering roles. And you know, I would definitely encourage you to look up any accounting type positions for open especially right now for remote opportunities Out song Of these two great ones that we've been talking about today. I would definitely encourage you to do that and take that master's degree. I think that's terrific and don't be afraid to start entry-level. That's my advice to folks. It's really hard especially for transitioning folks to want to start where they were or two level that they're familiar with but getting into the workforce just getting your foot in the door and learning those entry level skills at a different type of job really goes a long way. I like that. I like that you mentioned don't be afraid to start at entry-level. It's not it's not a step backward, especially if you've been out of the workforce for a while or if you're young you're changing careers. So thank you for sharing that Insight with a scary and I think it means a lot to give everyone a perspective of what it can mean to come back to the workforce or what it could mean to Career pivot. One of our user says I have an MBA with bookkeeping experience and some Hands-On QuickBooks experience. I'm not sure if I would meet the criteria that would love more information. So we are going to send you more information. Does anyone have feedback on that? If if we're talking about someone with an MBA and took bookkeeping experience where might they best fit in with these to open opportunities? Sure. Yeah. I can I can address that first here. We have a lot of folks who? Come from similar background who work as a QuickBooks live bookkeeper right now and you know specifically from an academic standpoint if you know MBA and maybe you have your own bookkeeping firm and you're looking to add some additional supplemental income the QuickBooks like bookkeeping role is really a great opportunity to do that as it takes a lot of the leg work off of your plate from a entrepreneur or you know, somebody running your own business where you don't have to worry about the marketing or obtaining new business. You can just use your skills and experience that you already have to help serve as QuickBooks Online customers home and you can continue to build upon your bookkeeping experience through this opportunity. And one thing I really love about these positions is that you might be located in one area in the United States but through QuickBooks live you're actually able to sit with customers Across the Nation across different Industries. So really helps you build out your bookkeeping tool kit as well as continue to level up on your experience with the QuickBooks Online software. I like that building up your your bookkeeping tool kit, which is, you know, really relevant to staying relevant, right? Thanks for sharing that clear. Our next question. Is are there any specific requirements on internet connection? Yes, I think for for both roles. There's everyone has to do an internet speed test that you you do on your own and then you send us screenshots of it. Just because we want to ensure that you you do have to be hardwired and that you have a safe internet connection because especially if on the Turbo Tax you're going to be the customers are going to be screaming and they're TurboTax software with you. So that means that's a lot of confidential information that's going to be on there. So we want to make sure that you've got the proper connection and you're hardwired in for security reasons. That makes sense. Yeah. Thank you for sharing and thank you for answering that question greeting. Y v towel asks with the bookkeeping opportunity be available next year as well. So I'm not sure if that means after December or if that means next season. So perhaps we should answer for both circumstances. Sure. Yeah, you know without any dutiable made economic downturn I would anticipate we be hiring on a monthly basis for these positions and you know, we might slow down a little bit through the holiday. Just for folks doing their own thing and traveling but I'm anticipating us hiring on a regular basis every month. So I am moving into twenty Twenty-One. Yes. Thank you. All right, Julie. Julie says I've looked at your tax requirements and it says three years of paid experience. I've been a Vita Vita preparer for five years, but it's volunteer. So I don't have paid experience. Is there any allowance for volunteer experience? I can help answer that so yes to know who ever that is. I don't mind if she's given my contact info and we can just talk offline and I can get into more details on that. Okay, that's great. I just do a shout-out and all of I'm sorry, go ahead. I was just saying a shout out to our Vitae their volunteers volunteer income tax assistance folks that really helped out during tax season. So all around the country. Thanks. Julie wage. Thanks, Julie, Julie. We will put you in touch with Karina so she can answer questions for you more specifically. All right. Can you go over how to become part of the program again? Oh, I'm sorry the ETA programme. So yeah, Texas re the taxes. So once your heart attacks associate roll your then provided with someone from app development program reaches out to you via email with information on how to sign up. So you have to say yes, you're interested and then sign up through there. I can't remember the name of the of the program that they use for the E A Gentleman. So they take care of the fees meaning into it. All you gotta do is sign up and starts to take photographs and you have awesome sit. You have to be hired for Iraq. And then once you do obtained you're enrolled age, you're enrolled agent license. It has to be that it's verified by the IRS. It's actually a valid license. So just because you passed the exam we can't move forward Thursday. We have a confirmation from the IRS. We always have to make sure the IRS has confirmed. It is an active valid license and then, you know someone from our team reaches out with next steps for the next role, which is 4 years. Tax expert roles and the is the bonus still in play. Yes thousand dollar sign on bonus. Okay, so let me recap that for all of our listeners and viewers. If you are hired first, you have to be hired by into it. Then you have to sign up for the a program study your buns off pass and then get verified by the IRS. If you do all of this before December 31st, there is a $1,000 bonus correct wage, which is really nice around the holiday season, right? Definitely. Okay. So that's it's just an incredible program if I were looking and and in this industry, I woke up in a heartbeat. Okay. There was another question here, Jenna asks, can you do you have any tips for tailoring your resume to these positions when applying? Yeah, I can talk to the QuickBooks live positions any accounting background experience. You can highlight so anything tide to AP AR book keeping a journal entries month-end clothes any of those items anything related to bookkeeping at all. Obviously, if you have QuickBooks Online experience, that's one of the requirements were looking for but if you want to showcase your experience with our accounting software that you might have used as well and anything really that's going to show you've successfully worked in a remote control before I think will be extremely helpful. And the last thing I'll add is that we are extremely customer-focused and customer reminded here at into it. So anyway, you can showcase strong customer service experience and a passion their wage I think will will truly help you stand out. Thank you Blair. Anybody else want to throw in on tailoring your resume for these positions? I do so on the TurboTax side of things. It's helpful to even if you don't have the pay tax preparation experience showcase what tax preparation you've done and or what software do you have used that really we can still I mean, I know that we've got a the minimum requirements, but she can still present it to hiring managers, you know, we don't want to say no to everybody. So at least as you just highlight how many returns you've done if you've done returns from it doesn't have matter what like what's happened returns but more so software. So even have you worked in the past with any retail taxes like H&R Block or Jackson Hewitt, if you've worked at them, even if it was for once decent wage anything is helpful. Okay, so you want them to explain where they worked and what kind of software experience they have? Thank you. That's very clear. Thanks Karina. No problem. All right, I think we have two more questions. And again again everybody if you have questions now is the time to get them the comments before we close our livestream denied 2 more. How long is the training period for each position? So I believe we would need to hear from China and Blair about the training. For each of your roles. So for TurboTax live at a training is 10 days and it's a combination of cell flood and live sessions. So you're young you've got 10 days to complete it and then your self self said needs you go at your own pace live sessions and managers will schedule a variety of life just to be able to connect as a team since everyone's repairs and then being able to connect your manager. And it's paid training Kia paid training, which is very important Blair. Do you have anything to add sure? Yeah paid training on the QuickBooks live side long it typically lasts around one week. It can go a little bit longer than that similar to TurboTax live. There's a live virtual sessions you'll attend there's self-led self-paced modules that you'll you'll go through and then there's also manager check-ins in touch points as well. And I think it's important to note to that after your training you're not just, you know, kind of thrown to the Wolves you'll be partnered up with them and you'll have resources on your team to help bring you along and and level you up appropriately so you can start delivering to the customers. I like the buddy system a lot. I think that's important to have a mentor when you're rolling into a new position. All right. Our last question is how long after the test for the enrolled agent does the IRS IRS verification take that I'm going to tell you right now on because due to unforeseen covid-19. I really just depends by state. It's been very different this year. So it varies cuz and I say that because some testing centers have been closed and people have to wait to get a bility to do testing online. So really it's on a state-by-state regulations with the IRS. Thank you. Okay, I would expect as much twenty-twenty has been it's been unpredictable from the beginning. You know, it's it's been an interesting year. So clear Karina Karen. I want to thank you all so much for joining us tonight on vert forces Tuesday Night Live. Is there anything else you guys would like to add or share with the Brute Force Community before we close out our life stream. Thank you. Just yeah. Thank you so much, and it's great to be here. Thanks to everyone don't give up. It's all possible. Don't give up. of new adventures We're getting lots of thank yous and our comments or Community seems to be very grateful that you guys took the time out of your your work day and your evening to come and chat with us. So thank you so much and thanks for bringing these opportunities to hurt Force again for first listeners. The blinks to apply for these positions are going to be in the show notes. If you're listening to this as a podcast episode they are in the description above my head if you were watching this live or if you're watching the replay and I will include Links to the QuickBooks office. Sorry QuickBooks proadvisor Online certification as well as some of the programs that Karen mentioned in our showroom notes, and we'll edit those into the description. Thank you so much Flair drip in Karina, Deckard and Karen brush for joining us tonight. Happy Tuesday Night Live will catch you all next week. Thank you. Have a good evening. Thank you. All right burp course that is it for this episode. If you liked what you heard Please Subscribe radar podcast and leave us a review page. We really love hearing from you. If you need to find the show notes which include all of the resources we discussed in this episode. You can find those at Fort Force off guys. I'm serious. When I say we want to hear from you if you have an idea for an episode or a question email us at support at home as a reminder all content associated with the vert Force podcast is the intellectual property of Fort Force LLC. All right. Catch you next week off.

QuickBooks TurboTax Karina Deckard United States Blair dribbon Miss Karen Navy QuickBooks Online vert Force Community Tuesday Night Live military Community partner The Tax Associates Intuit Brute Force Community Chicago San Diego Iraq Angie Community leader
Podcast #270: Public Media for All

Radio Survivor Podcast

58:39 min | 5 months ago

Podcast #270: Public Media for All

"We need to focus on humanity and ensuring that all people have access the same access that white people have had two things. Now. I am more than ever. So Equity isn't a hand out to people of color. It is giving people of color power to tell the stories themselves about their Community just not having a white person go into the community and make assumptions. Welcome to radio Survivor We're Here For the Love of radio and sound I'm Paul Richmond l pull everybody. I married life. And today we're going to talk about a new movement and organization in in public media called public media for all off and it seems like the name is very obvious to me in that maybe public media should be for all right. Yeah, but embedded in the idea that we have to call an organism. Malaysian public media for all that maybe that hasn't been as true as it should be. Yeah, I think all that, you know, we're talking today about having greater representation public media stations, which are radio stations. Sometimes also television stations as far as racial diversity goes, you know, these are institutions that it was very easy to label them as as as very very white institutions as recently as ten or twenty years ago. And that's a that's a that's a trend the the the less whitening of these kinds of media organizations that our guests today. I think are interested in pushing in the right direction. Yeah, and and not only that but also, you know a much more radical examination of the conditions that that perpetuate wage. Right the perpetuate the whiteness, you know and and and noting that part of the part of the reason this is happening. Now in particular is that there have been some very well highlighted documented to report it instances of what basically come down to racial discrimination right back at prominent public media organizations throughout the United States much of this has come to light in the last year or two. Sure. Yeah, it's you know, it's been sort of a long side of and next to and adjacent. It's simultaneous to the me-too movement. So that's that's been a little bit of How It's Been Framed. I want to let radio survivors listeners know that rate is Survivor. We here we love we thought the media landscape in the United States and the world we talk about radio history a lot. It's been 100 Years of radio in the world and in the United States, we also wage. Primarily focus our love for radio on community radio stations, which I'm bringing this up because I worked at a community radio station. That was so large that affection like a public media institution, but people out interact with friends who didn't under who didn't get as nerdy about the media landscape as I did would mistakenly assumed that my radio station was NPR, they would call it NPR and believe me. If you ever want to watch someone at a parties eyes gloss over and then try to figure out how fast they can get away from you try to explain to them which I'm doing right now on my radio show try to explain to them. Why why you don't call any public media radio station NPR it gets complicated. But Paul what I'm doing here is I'm hoping that we can begin to give an introduction to the media landscape in the United States. So that listeners have a better framework of understanding what kind of radio stations we're talking about. We're talking about birth. Public radio stations that tend to be among the larger, right? I mean the public media system. Let's just say this right is a system of a radio stations that are aligned together through networks. What's what's important to understand here in in the US is that public media is not actually owned and operated by the US government, right, which is otherwise the case in most of the rest of the world. So they're independent stations that are non-profits. Sometimes they're associated with a large organization like University many cases. They're independent nonprofits like Oregon public broadcasting or WNYC in New York, right who are dedicated to broadcasting in the public interest. They tend to be networked together through institutions like National Public Radio, which which kind of which provides programming to them but doesn't manage them, correct exactly. They provide program. And these stations are known as Affiliates of that programming. There's also you'll hear you'll hear the most popular NPR programs on all of these stations which leave listeners to assume that all these stations are are more like really connected them. They are they're very independent in the United States are very important and and they're often funded or most of them are funded through something called The Corporation for Public Broadcasting wage is itself an independent organization funded through tax dollars. So they provide funding and grants for programming for operations and things like this. But again, they do not own or operate any of the stations, they not responsible for you know for them at a broad level and CPP funding also goes to community radio station security media institutions. Well, they can do the paperwork, but you know, the the fundamental sort of you know, there is no hard line between one of the public radio station and one is a community radio station. It's a good point George. As we're talking about tend to be larger organizations bickerstaff's larger, but they tend to be professional. I mean fundamentally what they tend to be professionally run and operated the people who were on the air the boss who operate the station down the line are paid staff there tends not to be volunteer programming or programmers tends not to be right. Yeah, and that's an important. Now you you were mentioning how cpb the Corporation for Public Broadcasting provides funding for these stations. It's also important to note that these stations really do depend a lot on listener funding package which plays a huge role. I think it's a story that we're talking about today on radio again unique to you to the United States very unique to the United States in the world of broadcasting that are public media is only semi public funded and that much of the funding comes from Individual and corporate donations. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up that it's Unique to the United States because you know, yep. Going to get into the interview very quickly here on Rita Survivor with our guests sway Steward who is you know, a member of the main organizing Committee for Public Media for all this group that is pushing for these public media organizations around the United States to be more do better. Yeah to do better and make make sure that they're non-white reporters employees Thrive and feel welcome and don't have to deal with what they're currently having to deal with. So, you know, it's we're going to we're going to have that conversation here are rain over but I want to have in the background this idea that Because the United States is unique in having these stations sort of fend for themselves in ways that are that that radio stations and other you know, in other nations or in another world is possible scenario in the United States would never have to have these structures. Right what reason survivors and let me say that while the structure of being Reliant upon individual and corporate donations schedule here in the interview contributes to the complexity of the problem. We don't mean to say that it that the problems of equity and inclusion and diversity are exclusive to American public media, but but but you know we but this is this is what we're talking about is here in the United States and you know, all of these things are are related together. I also I hope people don't think that we are we are simply throwing stones radio cyber Survivor here at public media. Community stations themselves have the same in issues. Oh, yeah, we talked to you know diversity equity and inclusion within their own both paid staff ranks and their own volunteer ranks home and you know and so much of the what we're going to talk about today both in terms of principle. And and in actuality I think is is equally applied. Let's turn now to our job interview with members of the main organizing Committee for Public Media for all one of those organizers is Sachi Kobayashi. And our guest today on the program is Wade Stuart. Could you tell us a little bit like basically set it up? What is a public media for all what is this effort? Yeah. Thanks for having us on the show. So proud media for all is a coalition that's led by people of color working in the public media industry, and we're really wanting to raise awareness of the lack of birth. Christy equity and inclusion in our industry. Our goal is to share solutions for both individuals and organizations in our industry off and you know, we recognize that we can't do a really good job in supporting our communities if we don't have diversity Equity inclusion at every level of the organization. So that's really what we're pushing for. And what is bringing this issue to the fore right now why why create this organization at this moment in time? Yeah, well, unfortunately we have seen in our industry some Fallout from some really well-known organizations and station st. Louis Public Radio, Minnesota Public Radio wnet in New York WAMU in DC and it's just so you know, we recognize that while this follow-up was taking place much over the summer. I've had the opportunity to speak with all different types of employees across the industry and a lot of stations are dealing with issues around, you know, having a workplace culture that is not inclusive having having an organization that is not intentionally doing work to address the lack of diversity and and really, you know, this is not something that we can continue to ignore as an industry wage. We have to recognize that for us again to be able to serve our communities to to serve the the demographics the future demographics of this of this country that we need diversity so much more in our programming in our reporting, you know in our leadership and we really wanted to she could make a statement around that and unfortunately, we we hadn't really heard too much about what what some of the larger National stations in our industry were doing wage. Whether it's n p r p b s c p b or a p t a lot of the conversations that have been taking place haven't been shared publicly with with the industry. And so, you know Sachi and myself we met we were talking a lot about what needed to be done in the industry the lack of conversations taking place and we thought Decided to create a coalition of folks led by people of color and pulling together an effort to really address this you a nationwide station wide industry-wide the sway. You mentioned that there's been some fall out at some prominent public media institutions around the country. You mentioned specifically one of them is say st. Louis Public Radio. I mean, what is this fall out? I mean what is actually happening at these stations? What what what what are we seeing? So so yeah, so so the specific instance. Well, first of all, a lot of these instances are being written by people of color from organizations st. Louis Public Radio, for example, they've been posting on medium and so they themselves because of fear of retaliation professional retaliation. Sometimes aren't naming themselves. In these instances, but you know in August one of the members of that organization flat out said that you know, they had brought some concerns around, you know, micro aggressive behavior from either donors, you know people who put in a lot of funding to support stations or from sources from actual sources in reporting when they brought those micro aggressive behaviors to their leaders, they're not receiving the attention that they need them not being elevated by by leaders in terms of you know, really digging into the situation having a workplace investigation or or really creating and worth her create a safe, you know workplace for people of color. And so, you know, that's just one example, you know as such she had mentioned there are also off Organizations where leadership has either been asked to resign or two or have felt forced to leave. We saw off WAMU. We saw JJ or leave, you know GM station leaders. It's their obligation. It's their responsibility to ensure that workplaces are safe and that you know, there are opportunities for people to thrive and workplaces and when a leader doesn't address things like sexual harassment allegations when they don't address, you know things that can amount to a toxic workplace culture. It usually there is an individual within an institution Kodak institution that they've been deemed like, you know that they're that they are really good at their job. They are you know that they've maybe have been at home. Organizations for decades and you know because of their reputation and Organization leader might not want to oust them and instead they will allow the change the culture to to spiral because they fear that they will lose donors that they will lose that reputation wage. If they let go of a particular individual and so that's what we've been seeing at some organizations, you know, this not wanting to rock the boat and just letting you know really talented reporters walk away and and then the culture never the culture issue never gets fixed. I think this is something which I think anyone who's worked in any sort of institution can can probably identify with but certainly, you know, we see it in in community radio and and universities as well. Right? I mean, I think what you're saying here is is that people? Of color experiencing various types of both you say microaggressions and I'm sure sometimes aggressions aggressions but are going unless into by leadership and in often I think they you know, it seems like it is to preserve not just these donor relationships are probably relationships or the place of of Their Stars if I'm going to guess here, right? So so very prominent on-air personalities who you know because of their place and their prominence are also you know, highly tied frankly to station Revenue, right? Because if they if they took a prominent or or discipline a prominent morning host or something, they'll be reverberations that they fear through their donor base right that they'll hear back, you know from there from especially large in in powerful donors that that that you know, well, why did you discipline this person? I think we saw things like that happen to WNYC within the last year or two as well. Is a prominent prominent station in the public radio system here in the US, but certainly it happens. I think almost anywhere where where there's this unequal distribution of power issue will write and and absolutely the the power of the organization is aligned with more powerful individuals within it and and but it seems to me, you know, I've been I've certainly been following this to some extent really the number of reports that I've seen have really gone up in in 2020. Is it because that the folks working at these stations are starting to to realize they're not alone. Yeah, you know, I think that's part of it. I I think that also just with the me-too movement and you know what the conversations that have come out from that page when you know, even a public media industry dealt with some of those types of allegations and some folks were asked, you know to leave their poems the host of I believe Prairie Home Companion was one of those individuals and so I think that you have a mix of things first of all, we recognize, you know, public media a lot of us are in this industry because of the service that we provide our communities and our organizations get a whole lot of money from our from Members Choice. We asked them to give large and small amounts in support of the work that we do but when an organization internally is being some, you know workplace issues. How are we really to ensure that we're meeting our mission. How can we publicly say that we believe in Civility and we believe in you know equity and inclusion and off these things, but internally, we're not seeing that taking place so that you know that really makes for you know, interesting conversation. When if the conversation doesn't happen. Then you're seeing, you know, Frontline staff members who have very little power to make change at their organizations go public and share with their communities or share out with the industry what people are experiencing and you know, these instances are not unique. These are things that have been taking place probably for decades. In our industry, but because you know, we we because leadership is a lot of people have been a lot of leaders in our industry have been in public meetings long. They've grown up in this industry. They've had the opportunity to shape it, you know, they're they're the whole lot of you know, we need to change we need to fix this and so now you're seeing Frontline staff that are sick. This is enough is enough. We need to really be because we want to serve our community. Well, we need to fix our house internally and there's no shame in that way if the organization's leadership is willing to change, you know, there is no shame in saying we messed up we screwed up and should have been doing better. In fact, I think a lot of front-line staff member and people who have been in the industry for so long have been wanting to see this change would really love to hear, you know, come from leadership here some talking points. Leadership that are really sincerely about let's let's change we have to be better as an institution. We have to uphold the values that we expect from our communities and we can't do that until we have these difficult conversations. And so what kind of action is public media for all encouraging right? What do you what do you what is sort of your your own action plan at this time? Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, I just want to make sure that this public media for all Coalition and action. We have a day of action in education scheduled for November 10th. It's a Tuesday. We are going to be hosting a webinar that day is open it is open to all people in public media as well as people who are fans of public media. And so I know a lot of your listeners our community radio College radio and a lot of you are probably fans of public media, too. So you are invited to join to join us on Thursday. Day, and what we want listeners to do is we want listeners to ask their public media stations in their communities. What are they doing to achieve diversity Equity inclusion within their organizations. What are they doing to ensure that they are connecting with marginalized communities and how are they going to keep those connections going off? And so the other things that we're we're really trying to emphasize on this day of action is first of all, we want people of color in our industry to take the day off. We want them to call in sick and tired and say I need rest I have been doing this work as maybe one of a few people color in my organization and I need this day off myself. And so we're really promoting that but we also want white people in the industry to look within themselves to look at what time? Things they have done or maybe even haven't done that they themselves need to address whether that's you know, not speaking up when noticing micro aggressive action or behavior. Not really looking to people of color as you know, in terms of providing opportunities for them promoting them providing opportunities for professional development off and we want organizations to take our pledge and part of our pledge. You know, we're asking leaders to apologize. We're asking specifically white leaders and White House the visuals of these organizations to apologize for the past what hasn't taken place, especially if their workplace has seen some of these tumultuous time. We're really wanting them to to own that and so, you know, those are just some of the things that we're looking to on November 10th. You know asking white leaders to apologize I think is is interesting and Powerful as someone who identifies as a white person myself here. I you know, I think it is something where you know, I think it can seems symbolic on a level. But to me, I think it is more than that and I'll go out on a limb here and I'll say I'll suspect that long white leader has something to apologize for whether they are aware of it right in the moment or or have done the work to sort of identify their past actions or their present actually says the case may be and the effects it has right, you know that that is hard, you know in which you know, they're at the very least socialized not always recognized or to be as aware of and it seems to me that could be a very powerful start towards towards things though. Certainly not at all in and of itself sufficient job. And you know, I wondered, you know speaking, you know, two folks, you know, again who made and who identify as white who are working within public media of all different sorts phone. Now, it's I think that encouragement to to themselves be part of the solution is really important, right? Cuz it's it's at least my perception that very often wage. The conversation has not you know, it's not been a white people have not involved themselves. Shall we say exactly right? And I'll I'll see this I'm bi-racial. So I'm I'm you know, I'm African and white, I'm Kenyan and white and I grew up in a predominantly white Community. I have a white parent. I have white grandparents. And so I know how difficult it is to self assess and really reflect on Past Farms that have been committed toward people of color toward black people. Specifically and you know, it's a whole nother conversation and talking about, you know, the differences between being black in this country and being an African immigrant in this country, but there are there there that's like a whole other conversation but there's some alignment there. I think I think you're you hit it on the head and that, you know this country home if we could recognize the importance and the value of an apology of truly sincere deeply reflective in a reflective apology off there. We might be in a better place in this country and you know, so it really takes a liter to do that soul-searching and have that difficult birth inner conversation in recognizing, you know, I'm a white person. I know this is hard for me. This is very uncomfortable for me, but I want to see chain job. Want to continue to feel like I am I am intentionally harming other people and you know, in order to do that there has to be some vulnerability and I think we live in a Country Song in a world where vulnerability is seen is seen as a weakness and you know, that is just not the way that we can behave if we want to see change in in our lives. We have to recognize that this vulnerability is so crucial to allowing for healing both both self-healing and healing for people of color who have been on birth receiving end of Oppression for centuries. Yeah. I mean, I I really agree and you know, it's also I keep seeing is its in and off this is true in public media as it is elsewhere. It's also it is time for white people to make room. Exactly. I I assume that's probably part of your your programmer your least some of your recommendations for white allies. But I think it does require this also to come out of the mouth of somebody who took his his white because you know, I can say for myself, you know, it is it is very easy to take your Your Privilege in place for granted and to think that you have a promotion or even a job, you know speaking very much about cuz this is a jobs related kind of question that you have there coming right that you've done the work that you've you know, you you've you've earned the marriage you've done what you're supposed to within the meritocracy without considering the fact of white even what factors align to put you in that place to begin with exactly home. So it's it's about dismantling the privilege and in looking at what have you been privy to what path has been made for you. Naturally in in our industry and in this country and it really in any workplace that we look at and finding ways to create those same paths to leadership off those saved same paths to safety those same paths to economic stability to professional development education for marginalized people. I mean, you know, if if if that means you do have to make room you might it might require you to step down or step away from from the position that you hold to make space for a person of color to take that role. In fact, I had an email conversation with a GM and I said and I knew that this person was planning to retire within the next few years and I said you absolutely can do the work now to ensure that the person who takes your place is a person of color and you have to intentionally do that work. You can't hope that that the right person will come up to to your organization and birth. You're leaving and say I have what it takes to leave this organization. It just doesn't work that way. If it did again, we wouldn't have those issues in our industry. Right? We wouldn't have a pipeline off this quote on quote pipeline problem in in getting more people of color and women into leadership positions. So so I told him I said you need to start now am in developing what that looks like talk with your board about it, you know talk with your board about it and and come up with a plan to start grooming someone to to help make sure that you are able to diversify at the top of the organization. I think you know for a lot of folks, you know, they think about public media as being, you know a good of a liberal Society, right? And there's this common, you know and and and often, you know, especially I mean these days if you tune into a lot of public radio and particular song You hear many more voices from people of people of color, right? And there's there's a tendency just to think well, then obviously, you know, you know and and of course from the moffatt's the political concerns for the queues public meeting of being being politically liberal, right and and you know part of of these these efforts of of diversity and inclusion in equity that that are sometimes come in frankly for reactionary criticism from from the politically conservative and right-wing right wing and so I think it's probably to some extent also a little bit off surprising her jarring to a lot of to some public radio and media consumers that in fact what you see on the surface is not necessarily reflective of what's what's actually happening. Yes, you know, and and so I'm kind of curious, you know, and I started we sort of touched on this but but as as a listener, or as somebody, you know off Be a member supporter of a public media station or or more. How can you what can you do to influence that station to influence really the media that that to something that you that you support and that you rely on every day. How do you influence them to be better? So I I am a firm believer and I have seen the squeaky wheel gets the grease mentality from audience members. I had seen you know, if if a if someone doesn't like a program on our station and they you know, they just they just don't like it for whatever reason a lot of times if if they continue or if they get some people to to bring that hitch that issue that idea or whatever. They don't like them to more Folks at least are you know, the the the circle that I was in the GM's or the leaders would take a look at it now, that's not to say, you know, I I walk to the station and we were accused of being liberal and we were also accused of being too conservative and I you know at the end of the day we always looked at that as we were doing our job. You know, we were being we were staying in the middle. Now, we have to recognize to there's a lot of talk in our in media just in general around objectivity and is objectivity a true can can we truly remain objective and who is responsible for for maintaining objectivity? I think we have to recognize that media is a gate there are many Gatekeepers in media, whether their editors whether they're leaders, whether they're reporters hosts who choose not to long interview or report on certain things and we have to really look into those aspects more clearly, you know, we also have to look at you know, a lot of the month. We know that the the White House has put you know, it's foot down on diversity equity and inclusion training and you know having national funding birth Taking away from organizations that you use, you know government dollars for those types of trainings, but really, you know, what? What does that mean for our country? If she's not being able to look at the history of this this country and the impact that some of the decisions some the the system that we live in has had on continuing to impress people of color. And so what am I trying to say? Yeah, I think at the end of the day our industry has an opportunity wage to really ensure that media what the future of media looks like and that's going to make that's going to we're going to need people from groups that have been continually upon us to to help in the decision-making to help help shape. What media looks like and you know, if we can't look internally and if we can if we don't see the birth Any internally then there's no way we're going to be able to to address those sorts of things in media until you know, we have diversity at all levels say yeah, and I think you know, you mentioned very specifically, you know, you can communicate directly with with a station and you know, I've worked in community radio, but in in programming, I was also an advisor to a college radio station for many years. So I was a recipient right of of listener and supporter correspondence. Shall we say and sometimes you know as it is with with with many things the negative corresponds tends to stick out of five or more than the positive unfortunately due to human psychology and sometimes write it. You know, I think it's a listener you have to understand that, you know, there's somebody who maybe does not have the same issue or the same focus on seeing diversity and inclusion and in an equity who is also making those Communications two stations and possibly complain. About things that they hear on air when they hear something which comes from a different cultural back perspective, right? And yeah, it seems like it would be important to make those, you know, give both the criticisms and also the praise, you know, when when you've heard things and you can where you can perceive those efforts, right? Cuz sometimes you can I think on Air Max is to both give the praise and as well also give articulate criticism right constructive criticism, right not, you know doing your best to kind of probably deliver a message that is more likely to be to be home to be heard and received. I would suspect is that sound right to you? Yeah, that sounds about right. You know, I the thing I I try to remind people when they feel uncomfortable about hearing the truth is that at the end of the day the work that I do in in diversity Equity inclusion and what we're really trying to achieve through public media for all is an understanding that we need to focus on humanity and ensuring that all people have access to the same access that why people have had to do things then that you know now more than ever and so that means again Equity isn't a hand out to people of color name is giving people of color power to tell the stories themselves about their communities not having a white person go into the community and make assumptions song. You know, it's it's about us being able to tell our own stories and that's having the power and not the pushback that we continually receive to tell those stories in the way that we want to and that just might make the you know, white audience member feel very uncomfortable. But that's not our job to help ensure that they feel. Okay. It's really our job to make sure that black people when they hear a story about their community that they that the story is told accurately and that there is sincerity around, you know, that report that there is integrity around that reporting and you know, we can't continue to just hold people's hands. You know, as we're as as stories are told found the the murders of black and brown people by the police in communities across this country if you if you don't like what you're hearing as you age Person that it's really upon you to change that narrative and in that means you have to do some work around that and if you have to start with yourself, please by all means do that off and then don't you know, don't hold back when it comes to other what you're hearing from other people now, I don't I don't look at Humanity Injustice as political issues. I look at those things as natural human issues and you know, so we have to start pulling apart the argument around those things, you know, and it's it's it's going to take a lot of effort long it's going to take you know, a coalition of people like public media for all to at least look in our industry as a start if we want to make progress, you know, if we want to make changes a larger scale changes within our country absolutely sway. How are you? How are you engaging folks who are who are working in in public media at this time? How are you encouraging them to age? To participate in in in this in this effort really frankly to improve the medium. Yeah, we're we're doing a whole lot of social media campaigns. I have the privilege of working as a consultant for greater public which is an affinity organization public media that helps stations through fundraising challenges membership challenges and some you know, looking at Trends in our industry. And so through my work with them. I've been hosting town halls for bipoc members in the public media industry and really spreading the word about you know, why we as black people of color need to come together and address kind of the trauma that we've been dealing with in our industry and outside of our workplaces too and really find strength in one another and I think that that is really helping create space a space that has never existed for people of color in our industry, but we're going to social media we have been dead. Reaching out to general managers and HR leaders at specific organizations and people who have come to us and they they don't know how to bring this time back to the organization's we are willing to do that on their behalf because we don't want them to have you know, experienced any form of retaliation and you know, I think it's so sad, but still that there's people in our industry primarily black individuals in our industry who are so afraid to bring up concerns because they do feel like they will experience valuation. This was a lot it says a lot about how far we have to go in our industry. And so we're just we just continue to bring up weather instances that are dead taking place that are being shared on like medium or other similar platforms. We we try to amplify what's happening at other organizations, but we also want to highlight, you know organizations and station number. Are really doing the work that they that are recognizing that it you have to talk about race every single day. You know, you have to talk about what it looks what a precious life looks like every single day. And like I said, it may make may may make white people feel uncomfortable but we can't continue to let their discomfort off getting the way of progress. Absolutely and and I can't imagine the discomfort that that white people feel even even it's remotely similar. Unfortunately, right and sadly I think a little bit of discomfort is a very small price to pay to help move forward. I mean not just you know public media But ultimately our culture large forward many steps that it that it needs to to move forward and it was interesting that that you know that you're working in ways to to to assist and have dialogue with station log. Ship station Human Resources as well right that it sounds like this isn't yeah as well active resource active Outreach to provide not just the criticism which is important. I you know, I don't want to I do not want to undermine the value of identifying problems and and bringing them to light and and and and using Sunshine through this bubble, but it sounds like you're also hoping to provide an outreached to help them do better. Even you know, maybe in some cases they don't like they don't like the advice. Yeah, you know I you know, we're we're making a lot of friends along the way which is a good thing. I'm sure there are organizations and stations who just aren't ready to take that would make that commitment and you know, look I get it, you know our industry's massive. It's it's it's it's it's I don't want to call it massive. I mean it is it is fairly small but everybody knows everyone for the most part and we have you know, I think you know, we've had the we've you know, Sachi has done amazing work in developing this this, you know prototype for for Change and she is really taking the message to her new organization at OPB and they signed up so Steve bass is the GM of OPB and he wrote his organization would a press release around why they signed up for public media for all so we're really, you know, trying to cap it off. Is on the people in our industry who get it who want to see the changes and saying, you know to other stations and leaders. What are you going to do? If you don't want to sign up for this then at least tell us are you going to do to to make changes? And for those who are not in Oregon OPB Oregon public broadcasting and it would seem to me that that that is an an important part of life. Right? Is that because certainly station leaders they talk to each other they have organizations and bring them together. They do on a regular basis and where they do strategize and they go over wage, you know ways in which they can collectively help each other through different issues and in problem solving and having prominent leaders within public media sign on it would seem to be would would would really help to kind of provides peer pressure frankly in. Because and we we are capitalizing on that as much as we can. Of course absolutely dead. Or anything we didn't cover but is there anything that that you didn't get a chance to talk about or mention that you wanted to be sure to get in? Yeah, I just knowing your audience. I do want to make sure that you know again community-level Community stations College radio stations are really the feeders to public media stations and also to commercial radio and media. And so if I speaking to a black and Latino and Indigenous radio people, you know who really are feeling uncertain about their future in this medium. I just want to speak specifically to you find a mentor find someone who looks like you who is doing this work and could not stop because it is going to you know, again, we need people like you to be a very strong in our industry to do whatever it takes to log. Do do that work, you know get in your community. Tell your family. Tell your friends. Don't let your way and if you want to find, you know, if you eventually get to be a leader in this industry, then like I said find a mentor who's doing the work and have them show you the ropes and if you find that the mentor whoever you have isn't working don't stick them find someone who you can be comfortable with who you can have conversations with and honestly the some of the best mentors I've had have been people who look like me who've had similar experiences as me and I could be very honest with them about what I wanted and they helped me get there. I really appreciate you sending that message too many of our listeners our community in College Station site, and it's very good advice. And so once again you're having your day for action on November 10th, and folks can certainly dead. Can you repeat your website for us, please? Sure, it's public media for all public media for all sway Stuart is on the main organizing Committee for Public Radio for all. I really appreciate you taking a long time to join radio Survivor. Thank you so much for having me all thank you again for your conversation with sway Stewart who is a member of the main organizing Committee for Public Media for all which is pushing for racial diversity in Georgia Justice inside of public media institutions sway. Also mentioned her fellow organizers Sachi Kobayashi, who I'm sure radio Survivor will have on faith as a guest as soon as possible. Thank you both for making time on radio Survivor Paul. It's really interesting that conversation, you know brings up a lot of issues of around power in the media and I can't help but thinking about well, you know listeners have well, okay part of what I want to talk about a little bit here at the end is that so much of in this rain true for me in my experience at other radio stations that aren't that aren't members of the public media landscape that Sometimes the the the the the person at the workplace who is causing the most problems also is a person who is popular on the air and has been on the air for a long time and there's often a reluctance to deal with that individual by the boss because of the money that they bring in and if this is this is so huge of an issue. Yeah, I mean and it's and it's you know, we see this issue. I think this issue of power we see throughout the media industry similar certainly not exclusive to public media, you know, and I think ultimately in any organization in which which is hierarchical in which power is held disproportionately in the organization and often concentrated either through a strict hierarchy, you know, somebody has like a manager director CEO title or you know has a lot of the house a lot of just overall a lot of the organization. Invested in them we see this right and and it's I think to some people it's sadder to hear the public media is is no more immune to it than anywhere else. But but it's certainly true. I don't think you should be surprised at all the fall you were you were also you were helping me a remember that listeners have a lot of power in the world. I mean and it cuts both ways, right and you know, so on the one hand, you know, one of the reasons that that you know, CEOs program directors are reticent to discipline popular on-air personalities is because they do receive that listener and donor backlash, right and that the boss is not reliable that many of the the folks who have the backlash who are who are upset that their favorite Morning Show personality is is being taken off the air necessarily wrong. Oh, share the progressive values of diversity equity and inclusion in a broad sense right that they that they themselves I would I would make it worse than that. I would say that they do as long as it doesn't change advisor doesn't go where there's take. All right. I mean when what right the think the name until until their challenge to give up something right that they that they really haven't examined their own privilege in a lot of ways exactly, you know, but but that it it does swing the other way as well be a good Ally if you're a listener and and you you know, you learn about these issues at your radio station that goes I mean, I'm going to go school, especially there's a little white guy, you know. Yeah, I keep saying time and time again is that there's a high chance of allegations are true. And if you're are that old white guy and I doubt any old white guy who's a public radio person just listening to us right now. It's always possible. I'm going to say you're an old white guy took the opportunity to retire off. Okay. Well not that all time. No one's retiring here and you know, so but but really, you know in that and that, you know, cuz when we talked about making way, I mean, I think it's really it's really it's really true and that you know public media all media. We need new voices. We need one perspectives. We need new talent coming in. And and if and if these places are held a monopoly by what is ultimately a very narrow class of people exactly. It really has tremendously deleterious effects. And I want to mention here. This is not a home. This is not to reduce the impact of the interview or to change people's minds but one of the things that I can't help thinking about with this story also something that they you know, Matthew lasar helped me to understand was an important factor in the struggle over Pacifica Radio in the late 1990s going on till the day or all of it off. If that in the United States people who love Community media are fighting over scraps and being forced into adversarial relationships just by the tiny nature of the non-commercial media landscape and it doesn't have to be that way. It would be much preferable for everybody who's good at this work off of a job in non-commercial media so that the the white people who are good at this work can keep their jobs and continue to grow into their expertise as well as they're being back doors wide open for entry level work as well as better-paying work as well as leadership opportunities as well as you know, mentoring and growth for the people of color in that have been shut out of the institutions for for generations and it would be awful. Nice. It'd be awful nice if we could have both well ultimately what we need is a larger cash. Of experienced people and you only get experience one way right and that I think you know and and certainly, you know, the star system as it exists does not need to exist in the way that it does that the those are choices and certainly there are people within public media who whose individual salaries would fund multiple positions. Yeah. Well as Frontline support as Frontline reporters and and and multiple, you know, good living wage positions, right? Not not you know, and and these are all things that that I think we can think about and those of us who who obviously are more engaged in community media, you know, the star system tends to be a little less pernicious here in the salary certainly are not nearly as nearly as large, but we can still consider the same Dynamics and think about how they play out and and and be thoughtful and critical about how they play. Yeah. I mean, it's actually an entirely different game. Story if we take our view that we've learned from this interview today about having better racial diversity inside of your media organization and turn our eyes towards Community media and now we're faced with the really difficult problem is that marginalized people can't afford to volunteer at Community media organizations at the same rate that the privileged people don't have to worry about rent and food and childcare, etc. Etc. The same way in the same way right have have more time and more privileged to be a part of these media organizations. And I think that's wrong. You know, we've talked about that on Razorback before and we'll talk about it in the future. You know, there's plenty more episodes where this one came from. I want to thank our guests again today for for starting the conversation. We wish them the best of luck with their with their organizing event, and it was exactly taking place on November 10th third day of action for public media for all. Radio Survivor is online at Radio survivor.com or you can find show notes for today's episode as well as ways to listen to the podcast. If you're listening on the radio, we are a podcast that airs every week as well. You can hear us both a radio survivor.com or you can subscribe to radio Survivor wherever you get your podcasts on the internet. We here radio Survivor would love to hear from you about anything that we discussed either on today's episode or any previous episode or the issues that we care about here, which is community radio non-commercial radio College radio and the American Media landscape our email address where you can communicate with us is podcast at Radio survivor.com. We're also off on social media as you can find us on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram radio Survivor is all of those. That's our handle everywhere re Survivor is a listener reader supported Enterprise to find out more about how you can strengthen the project go to Radio survivor.com on behalf of Paul Richmond out who produced today's episode. My name is Eric Cline radio Survivor is also a project built and run by Matthew lasar and Jennifer weights and we all thank you so much for listening this week off. Would be back here at the same time next week with more stories of community radio College radio non-commercial radio low power FM and the history of radio off all around the world. So, thank you so much for listening. Off off off off off.

United States Louis Public Radio NPR Corporation for Public Broadca Committee for Public Media for Sachi Kobayashi Paul Richmond Corporation for Public Broadca bickerstaff WAMU Committee for Public Media Wade Stuart Christy equity Minnesota Public Radio wnet GM Sachi Oregon public broadcasting National Public Radio New York US government
Full Show (Kyrie + LeBron, Cowboys/Browns, Heat/Lakers, Patriots/Chiefs, Doc Rivers to Philadelphia)

Skip and Shannon: Undisputed

1:55:14 hr | 6 months ago

Full Show (Kyrie + LeBron, Cowboys/Browns, Heat/Lakers, Patriots/Chiefs, Doc Rivers to Philadelphia)

"Welcome to the undisputed podcast I'm your host Jenny. Taft. This podcast is the full show from today's episode of undisputed from start to finish. They've got a busy slate. So Skip Shannon let's get to it. Undisputed Lot from Los Angeles I'm Alex Career Skip bayless and Shannon Sharpe Good morning and happy Friday. Friday Alex. NBA Finals in Tonight Parade Monday downtown, Los Angeles featuring less Shannon Sharpe that we only dream car. Grade Masks. We gotTA get four game. Now the heat will say we've had enough we're going. We're tired of the bubble burst maybe third maybe Thursday. How about tonight. I don't WANNA walk. Out Internet. Go Watch. Like the sound of that but let's get to it because fans all across twitter have been calling out Kyrie Irving for taking a shot at his former teammate Lebron James Kyrie who's now a Brooklyn net along with Kevin Durant said that he was excited that for the first time in his career he feels like someone else on the team is capable of taking the final shot sites himself. Now after car we saw many calling it a shot Lebron he put up a video instagram denying that it had anything to do with Lebron. The Chin is do you consider this taking a shot at Lebron was absolutely a shot at Lebron and he knows what the Lebron? Per Second, now you're on a team with a guy, that's one four MVP. He's won three finals MVP he's gone to not you play with him he had gone to four straight. In, Miami and he came back with you went to three straight before you did and you're saying that for the first time in your career. You got a gallon, your team commit to shot that you. Hear that buying this is this is how someone repeating league saying something. Off His being true if because we see that in a lot of today's society, is that people just constant repeat something and they believe that to be true because people have constantly repeated that Lebron James is uncooked in his the greatest is the greatest lie. They've probably even told because here's what Lebron is in game-tying. Go ahead shots in the final minute for playoff games carry urban is two or three only made one other shot other than the game seven Lebron James Is Twenty, four, twenty, one, forty, nine, percent of eight from three. That's fifty percent in the same line. That could because I was a prop forty eight coming out of school that Shannon Sharpe was dumb and they can't man he don't he he don't. He don't shown a short was never done because I didn't do well on standardized tests that doesn't make what has transpired because Lebron James did not win two thousand eleven finals against Mavericks. The mafs people's that were he's unclench. No, he's not Lebron. James is the muck the most clutch player in NBA down stop it. You get to that point that's just the biggest bunch of hogwash. It's ever been foiled in the middle of his what does. The, worst superstar clutch free throws in the his. But he. Retired. Like nobody in the history of president trump, you'll let me tell. Oh Tablet. and. To. Give me the ultimate insult call me that guy you won't talk. Oh. Yeah. You want me to call you that guy if you go talk over me and let me tell you interrupt me all the time but I'll let you get away with. All Right Cari as carry cameras jealous. Lebron. That's why he up and left carry wanted the perks that Lebron James he thought. Once he hit that big shot he was on the bronze level with a bang was kept. Yes. He hit that shot. But what was known about that? Did you know proud of that that the warriors up eighty seven, eighty three? Do you know who scored the next six points for the for the cavaliers, Lebron James Deer, and because Lebron had to chase down block, it got just as much play as carry shot that bothered carry carry got upset that once he hit that shot he thought he should get the same perks he thought he should get the privileges that Lebron James With Me was he did not. He wanted to bounce skill. What was carry before La Bonne what we've been since. It is funny. You noticed. There's the second time calories done this. When they were getting ready to go to the bubble, they shouldn't be in the bubble as he wasn't going to be allowed to go to the bubble is ironic. He's making these comments from home and Lebron James in the tenth vinyl. You don't find that ironic my minded very running skim. Everybody was ready for radio nobody wanted Carrion Boston is a reoccurring theme and then he said what he says give coaching a goal. A collaborative issue how you basically match feels about that skill go be collaborative issue really neither one of the they got two guys get neither one of the leader. They got two guys that neither one of them, the leader because the lead in. Okay. See would you know who the leader in Golden State was you know who carries never been a leader to See Carrie under the assumption and a lot of people are if you're a great player that automatically makes you a leader, you having covered the game me having played. No, that is a lot. Yeah. In this business all about jealousy and Lebron was absolutely correct the reason why he ad work is because there is no jealousy between the two I want you. To Sixteen, you want me to succeed give the reader while Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen work was because God he knew he wasn't fame level as Michael Jordan but when you get two guys and they're out with and they believe that they're equal think about this magic Johnson Corinne Corinne with already a five time league MVP, one finals MVP, he won the recklessly. Magic Johnson rookie year. But he stayed with magic another eight years. As magic started with finals MVP. He's started to win regular season MVP. There was no complicated. It takes a lot to be able to do this but you know he took a shot at Lebron to say this and when Lebron hit the shot in Cleveland with. With either when Lebron Asia Chicago with there he Build a team and then he come running hugging Kumbaya video video and then he come running. No do this carry to say that you've been you've been the only guy your team when a guy has this kind of resume gaming game out stop it can read this ridiculous. Yes. He took a shot. A Lebron was more right to take the shot back. Okay. My turn. Here's how I put this in perspective. Let's think about what just happened. This was Kevin Durant's debut podcasts or just one out of the box. Yes, and he invites his brother Kyri on your best friend, right? Yes and they are kicking it and they're talking about any and everything in the world and they are a thousand percent comfortable because their best friend rest there's no interviewer you might or might not trust right it's K. D., tyree egret. So this subject somehow comes up. And all the sudden Regis blurts his heart on the. blurts. BLURTS and blurts and. I don't have any problem with it. But let's let's analyze how he said it that on every team he's ever been on. He felt like he was the best option down the stretch that was the phrase used down the stretch. This is the first time he said in my career I've looked down and I'm like that. Can make design to write meaning Kevin Durant. And he'll probably do it a lot easier. So he's trying to gush his the ultimate compliment that he pay. D.. He's sitting with him face to face and he's trying to say to him before they ever play a game together. You know what? You're even more than I am. So I'm going to have no problem deferring to you ravin. Durant, right. In ways I would never have deferred to anyone else that I've ever played with. You've proven your your clutch at the highest level. He didn't say this, but I'll fill in the blanks Kevin obviously in back-to-back NBA finals with the weight of the NBA world on his shoulders with everybody waiting for him to fall on his face after he left Russell Westbrook and join forces with the Golden State. Warriors, they were waiting for him to collapse so that everybody could say look at what you. Did eight instead in back to back game threes in the king's palace in Cleveland, he took over to game three that were the turning point game of those two finals and he made one shot in the first game three right in. Lebron's grill and it was the game changer and the point was he became the files in the back to back at Lebron expense. So now Kyri is leaping to this conclusion that man Kevin's he's the clutches there is he's even more than I am. So the problem with all of the above is that. You don't even mention Lebron. You could have disqualified it a little bit by saying, Hey, I did play with Lebron and Lebron's really great. But we didn't get any of that. We got complete omission of Lebron James He didn't even damn him with faint praise. He damned him Renault. nope right. I mean he he condemned in he him he just condemned him with no prior of everybody knows that he played with. Lebron. And he wasn't even in the conversation here. So again I was fine with that I, believe in you don't, but I believe in what he said is true and I don't have any problem with them saying it I just need him to own it. If you say it own it exists. So then he goes on, he posted a couple of videos I duNno I G twitter I'm not even sure where they were but the point was. He he didn't exactly backtrack or back off. He did not apologize. He did not say, Oh, I messed up I. Don't know what I was thinking. I forgot to even mention he didn't do that right He condemned toss us the media or the Internet in general for you know, why must it always be brother against brother? Why? Why? Why? If I'm addressing anyone I'll say their name Oh, you know you did right? Okay. Just like you didn't say when you left to go to Boston, you didn't say why you wanted to leave and you just want opportunely. Team come on y'all don't listen to the false narratives. Let people live their lives. You started it. We didn't you that we didn't say a word. And just because you're on somebody's podcast, it doesn't mean it was a private conversation you it's public. Yes. It's just as public as if he were sitting right here on. We, were on live national. It is live. Squad. Live national, whatever you call it medium. Okay and he goes on and on to say. But we live in a click bait society and it becomes something bigger. You don't have to defend it. That's just what the media does. I'm not going to let it pit me against anybody anymore. Well. You did it Kyrie we didn't do it. We're just responding and reacting to what you did. Yes. Okay. I'm trying to defend what he said because I do think that Kyrie is very clutch and I do think we know what he did if we just see real quick. So he hits the shot or shots and games at Oracle as you both believe. Gibbon, biggest shot in playoff. Angry. So I think we have that shot. Here's here's the one at Golden State just to remind everybody a little bit of a fall away jumper nobody could make a shot and he finally shot. Okay. So that became the game winner. Then we also have the Christmas Day shot remember it was a big match and he sixteen Yeah Christmas? I ball ear and this is on Klay Thompson of fall away at the Buzzer that won the game. Okay. so He's capable of doing that and then the one I will never forget came against my spurs when they were the defending champs. And it was a huge midseason room at San Antonio and this is career at the end of this game. He was out of his mind scored fifty seven points in that ties it and sends it to overtime and when he made that shot, I just fell on the floor and said, that's just too good because he'd been doing that all night long. So I'm demonstrating. He can back it up. He's backed it up before he is clutch. So again. Skipped by, but the process of you saying that he's Saying he's clicked you'd say Lebron if uncooked and that's not old. Okay. Here's my point on. Lebron. It took him six years to finally make his first game winning shot what you would call a buzzer beater or a walk off I. Watch. Every Lebron Game I was watching that Friday night it was against Ronnie tree off right at Oakland ironically in two thousand nine took six years for me to make that shot and he did hit that shot her around the world on the catch and shoot where he just had to shoot at the Buzzer and that was a big one. But then they they've flamed out the rest of the way against Orlando. And he did make that layup against. Paul George. But it was just a left handed layup. It was a buzzer beater and I'm going to give you that one it led to Ray Allen but he took the shot to tie the game against the Spurs twenty thirteen game six and he liberated and Ray? Allen saved his legacy I don't care what you say just did that was the greatest clutch shot I've ever. Seen, shot me right in the heart and because that was my spurs. So then at Chicago, what happened on that play? This is why Kyrie is correct and what he's saying David Blatt had already decided are clutch guy closer is Kyrie. So he calls the play in the Huddle at Chicago and what was pivotal playoff, right? He calls Kyrie's number when he calls for Lebron to inbound the basketball and to lebrons undying credit. He said No. That was the greatest moment to me of Lebron's career. That was the first moment I said that's what I want to see because he got mad about it and he said, no, that's not right. It's my ball I want the ball and what did he do? It wasn't a three point shot he just caught. Yes. Okay. So then clutch okay I'm just saying I was like him when he gets mad but too many hundreds of times he has run from the late game free throw line and take long three missed. No I'm not I said it from the start you can go back and check the type of me in two thousand four. This kid is running from the free throw line because he's a way below average. Cute. Okay. But here's the thing and gain time going head shots in the final minutes of the Playoffs Lebron James's twenty, forty, one, four, eight, hundred, three, carry urban in Cleveland Game. Lebron James's fifteen thirty five. Forty Three Percent Cavalry Feb. Twenty five twenty, eight percent I. Want Know One thing you tell me Kevin durant clutch and he is cooked but with the clutch in two, thousand, sixteen up three one. No but what if I told you about an I defended Kevin on this not the time he was sick and tired of. Guards. Would Shannon you either get the ball or you don't get the ball where you can score the basketball. You have shots that you can make that are called for you. But Russell Westbrook was the primary decision-maker. It's why he up and left he said, I can't control. He dribbles the ball of the floor and he either Titan himself or sometimes he'll lob it to me over on the wing and say you do it. But you see. What you see what you did skip anytime. Kevin. Durant comes up on collect. You find a reason that he wasn't clutch cable rough but in his biggest moments against Lebron head to head. So that wasn't that wasn't a big moment up three one. Okay. But I'm saying he's saying it was taken out of my hands. I'm not the if Kevin brought the ball before Lebron Museum in game fix when they were up three one to see Kevin Durant, and game okay. Scale. Here's the thing cadre Lebron on the floor. In the playoffs he used to higher percentage from the floor, a higher percentage from the three plus three, fifty nine. Might Have Lebron he's a without Lebron he's minus forty nine. Okay. Though the cow remembers. So why would a Mike Malone be five years the assistant in Cleveland in say publicly during the last dance documentary airing that Lebron didn't have the killer mentality that Jordan Murphy in that gift repeated just like Anthony Davis doesn't have the dog eating that's gift repeated. Why did Michael? Why didn't Michael? Malone say that after game by that, Lebron James didn't have. That was imperfectly not after the last day you. Guessed it. He should have said that if he said that then. Lot I like Michael. I think he's going great. You'RE GONNA do Great Bang for the nuggets but I needed him to say what he said the last dance needed him to say that the game. What did he say this? That was his opportunity to be the demand that you believe that you that you praised it because you came out here and you had to clip goot ready to go. He doesn't have that kill is why did he say that after the game five loss liquors versus nuggets? Why didn't he say that but he well, obviously, he's not going to say that then. Spoke as art when he was asked about and you know what? It was pretty gutsy just that because the season was still going to finish, it is either to speak your heart skip we get this on the Internet is either to speak your heart when you in the key on the keyboard, we taught a keyboard courage we caught at all muscles but when you gotta face the man in the arena, he would. Say it. Will he had to know when he said that back in whatever month it was during the pandemic he had to know there was a possibility he was going to have to face. Because, everybody's able to most people after he didn't think that there's going to be with the Lakers, I never going to have to have opportunities maybe have said that skip this notion that Lebron because we've seen him do it skipped he has more buzzer-beaters in the playoff been Michael in Colby combined skip best back. That's not conjecture I pointed out to you again and again, and again how times he is run from a last shot including against the nuggets I showed you what happened on the inbounds pass they call Lebron's number and he was. He was one for six in the fourth quarter they did not. He was one for six and he was having a bad night at the free throw line and he's thinking I cannot put myself in this position high IQ highest in basketball. So the numbers called for him and his Rondo pats the ball for everybody to move Lebron just stood still in Anthony had to circle all the way across the top of the circle to the far wing to get the past and shoot. If you don't mind me asking if nobody is afraid of him, why was why was Jeremy Grant fronting him in May simply rose directly to Lebron James and I got i. have no idea what exactly because they know skied up, here's the thing if you look at it and see what happens is clutch oh, he not could. Then all of a sudden you change the narrative two free throws he don't change it. I started the narrative go go look it up. You can check the tape I. Started in two, thousand five, he's a poor free throw shooter and he doesn't want that. What am I always called him from the start greatest driver the basketball I've ever seen unstoppable freight train to the rim. But you have to know that you could be sent to the free throw line and you've got to go make those they're called free throw it is the worst superstar free throw shooter below seven we've ever seen he's but he's okay if that's the case he the greatest super star Clutch Bell. Bombmaker any of them because you say the playoff because when you grow your legend where he has more dame winning buzzer beater shots been anybody in the history of the game he's played two hundred and sixty nine more games than Michael Jordan. Two hundred and sixty nine more opportunities for Buzzer beaters and over time he's played. So long with so many minutes he's he's about to have the second most holy what he's. Like you said he Doesn't matter if he plays three thousand more games than Michael Jordan if he's given clutches, you and Calgary says, he ain't got no business even being on this list. What's funny to me how people outside of me continue to question is clutch nece it's always like it's my fault but then Kyrie's doing it and Mike Malone's doing it and I do a litany of. David. Blatt. Did he said I'm calling the last play for Cairo? We see what's going on repetitions of ally doesn't make it the truth just because someone says something that's false in somebody else repeats in a gift. Catches like wildfire out here in California get there doesn't make it true. He hit the shot against Orlando. He hit the shot against Chicago. He hit the shot against Toronto he's made more clutch. I'll give Indiana he's made more clutch shots. In the last five minutes within by the antibody Michael and Kobe combined. If people say they're the greatest clutch performance in NBA history and he has more of those in the playoffs then both of them did he plymouth question does give. So if he got a hundred more games than Michael, Jordan, does he have two hundred more game than Kobe and Michael combined because he has more game winners than both of them combined the have more games than them. We took a vote of everybody in the history of basketball who do you want to have the last shot between Jordan and Lebron we'd be think win is kill it would be a landslide. Though. Landslide because what's to happen because the represented the live been repeated that Lebron uncluttered. I the numbers skip the numbers say Lebron James He has he's made more any have a high percentage, but he's missed so many more than they have and he's run from so many more than Michael Jordan says I've failed five thousand times. That's why able to succeed. See when he says that we see does while Michael's drink and he's saying something I read something that Jack macmullan said. She was asking him about pressure at the moment in the parade of taking the shot. He's afraid of the moment. You afraid to take a shot you afraid you might miss it. You have a practice that shot enough. Lebron James. SKIP. The one thing you hear everybody says he's the first gym. He's the last out of Jim Tad that he spends on his craft. But for people to continually take these shots at these potshot skill why you think Kevin Durant went to where he was it why did he leave because he wanted what Lebron James Hair in even after winning two final MVP, he's still could get the low. So what did he do? He opened read to Brooklyn. And then he gets mad when people don't give credit. Oh Lebron pay boy he bad Kevin Durant won't pay boy but. In the end players know players stars no stars in Kyri is showing you his heart. He just doesn't believe the other guys clutch. Skip, Jew because. People might not believe in climate change and people might not believe in Kobe skip that doesn't make it true just because you don't believe something that's reality. He also believed earth is flat for that's the guy that you believe in Nafta guy the to. ME. That's the guy I test and when I'm rooting against Kyri, he scares me to death when I'm rooting against the Lebron, in the clutch does not scare me to. Think about what you did though you rooting for the clippers. With from Portland to Houston to the nugget tonight a heat and not a heat ain't that you like a lot of rest of them. Go with the baby. You got to find something to hate owed him about because you're a team he dispatched all Tiv. So now let me find something. I said it going in this'll be his easiest path to the finals ever if you voids the clippers I, told you that that's not what you said at the beginning of the oddsmakers said, the clippers were better than the Lakers and so did I gue- dogs? May lose a lot of money I. Know they lose a lot of buddy? Yeah. But these guys, that's how that's how they build Vegas Built Vegas because somebody thought they knew more. Okay. You would. That's what I'm GONNA do. Steve Wing done became a multi billionaire. He ain't doing that on winners money skill. One team was looking ahead to the other because that team new it could be look at it. I don't know what he look at all I know the in Cancun right now. The clippers would be cake walking over the Miami Heat Allah. Cancun and I can't determine which is which because everybody's skins Hoti Cancun right now Hawaiian Cancun PG they look at the moon pgn. And you get to play Miami. Probably without Bam or dragging. Holdups congratulations. You didn't people didn't say that about a choir where he won that thing with k. d. one that what I think you said it like every other. What about when Golden State beaten with with Rian care below y'all to give Lebron anything. He loves he he the guy he got a win. Okay. Do You The Best Player. Shot Healy. Ultimate response to an insult is winning and it's looking like Lebron is Google Gouda. Over. Go with savant to the NFL or deck in the cowboys going to have some trouble with Baker in the browns ask. Things may have changed around us, but our inner drive to be there for people we care about runs deeper than ever when we come together as a community, we empower ourselves to make meaningful change our normal has changed, but we're finding new ways to connect and continue to support one another. So what we need more than ever is an easy way to support each other from afar with the pay pal APP sending and receiving money is faster or easier stay connected with the people you love. Quickly and securely send money to friends and family just about anywhere in the world star money pool to split the bill or go on a gift or fundraise for a good cause support the places and causes you care about most make touch free qr code payments at your favorite local restaurants or farmers market donate to a local nonprofit or support a cause from across the country pay pal is making it easy to pay safely quickly and easily download the pay pal APP today terms and conditions apply. You know what's your cowboys deep is the problem is been a problem and I'm seeing something and I think you're seeing it also skip I wanNA know because you say why do the cowboys keep getting off to these slow stars and you blame Jason Gap all this these years you blame Jason Gary and yet they still get off to these little stars. Are you still blaming Jason Garrett? Cold a little chilly. That'd be fan got a Little Fair Gordon Fan go right here. Jason Garrett has turned around the New York football giants they're really fire they need to do some. We'll put the fire. With with running for those mistakes, make the cowboys defense is. A problem and they're probably going to have to win the majority of their games give shootouts. Unfortunately, they gotTA stop falling behind and sometimes fleet from the League it's. Only two touchdown passes this season with the lead to. Put up some phenomenal numbers. But from the most part it's been coming from behind what have they been in the League of I can't believe that I didn't even know that like when did that? At the end of the game just Atlanta and I, think they had to leave briefly brief. Brief the also. Came in where he? worked. His. Magic on, them. I like this and I know Baker say you know if it has to be a shootout shootout Yada Yada Yada but if I'm Cleveland I'm I'm trying to do everything I possibly can to not make it a shoot out this game to come through chip Chubby needs to be the sole beneficiary he needs thirty cares now Kareem Hunt with a little ding with an injury I don't know the extent of duty practice not what is going to be a status for Sunday, but this needs to be a niche of a Kareem Hunt Typo ballgame in then Because you want because Dallas explosive about business, I'm not denying that a team that's explosive offensively you see what they tried to do skill. Let's try to present football. Let's try to minimize the opportunity because it's hard to be explosive when you only got the ball for twenty five, twenty, six minutes of the game. Yeah. So Cleveland's GonNa the browns are going to need to run the football control the clock possessed the football, and hopefully get a- timely possession. Yep. So would that be Cleveland have the number five rush defense number six in yards per carry. SKIP. I. Like I like I. Love Cleveland Chances Plus Deepak. Did you gave me six points? Tyron Smith Limited participation? That's GONNA be. Interesting. Skilled. That I mean the myles Garrett against night, the left tackle. He kind of he looked bad special that lasts drive because that was a free man rush and they got I think. Two facts and maybe a hit on that that's acceptable. myles Garrett is licking his chops I'm GonNa take the Browns to win this game twenty, nine, twenty, six, really yeah will then I shouldn't give you any too late though. You just picked Cleveland outright to win the game. So I think the points are often. Do you don't have the courage conviction. These I like these numbers to play with. The okay. You gotta be nobody. Got You. Go buy a house it earns de que by here you got you gave a relatively okay and she's like we we found this guy. So we got to move here. That's. Dollars applicable. To play by the way, Fox bets is five point five so I'll give. You gave me six Oh so you. Hold A. Bit. Get best apply. Wink. Too late okay. I stand by what I told you earlier this week. I. Believe with all my heart and soul my cowboys will win this game and win it decisively really and I also believe with all my heart and soul they had better win this game or I'm off the band. I explained to you that obviously they can back into the division title with ease this year even easier than last year because Carson Wentz has turned into W. I n. c.. As in. Close to losing his job, they play at San Francisco there are seven point underdog I don't believe they can win that game I could be surprised but I don't believe they will win it The giants are a hopeless hapless underdogs. In Washington The Washington. Football team plays. Baltimore. We're coming off a loss and they are going to want some. Blood. So my point is that I'm pretty sure all three other. Lease Stern NFC LEVI's are going to lose. Okay. So the cowboys will have cushion. There'll be no urgency except from me because if they are legit if they are going to slowly morph into an actual NFC content jubilee, they are yes. which I thought they were going into this season then it needs to start. Now because if they lose at home to the Cleveland Browns, it's just devastating it work what's left of their psyche because they easily, they should've lost to Atlanta Rob it took him a minor miracle, right? Yes, and that would mean they should be Owen for you could make that case if they lose to the Brown right? Well, I'm not going to make that case because. I'm going to hang onto what happened last year three times at home when I least expected it because they hadn't demonstrated this kind of firepower to me otherwise. But you remember what happened when Philly visited the first time on that Sunday night I believe yes it was twenty seven to seven at halftime doubts it wound up thirty seven to Tin Dallas. They jumped right out to a fourteen to nothing lead and I sat back and said, La there is. That's the team that I believe in right and then you know what started to happen. Yeah. Okay. Then when you least expect it fairly late in the year heading up to the Philly game after they'd stunk it up at new. England they come home to play rams team that had just own. Them had just had one there and beaten in the playoffs out here in southern California la at the Coliseum and what happened in that game it was twenty eight to seven Dallas at half. I know the rams were starting to real a little bit and a couple of wheels about to. Come off but dowse won that game forty four to twenty one and I saw firepower I saw nuclear weapons. Those are okay and then to cap the year, Washington came to Dallas and I know they were pretty pathetic but Dallas just jumped all over them opened up a twenty two three lead and back through a party and it wound up forty seven to sixteen and I said well, there was that that's what it should have been all year long instead that made them eight and eight. They're heading toward eight again. Unless they go north from this game. This is the key game. This is North or South this is. To me it's not for again they could win the NFC lease by default. They could be a counterfeit fraudulent playoff team that will lose at home in the first game to some New Orleans come in and just blow him off their own deal I. Don't WanNa. See that that that hurts me I'd rather than missed the playoffs they'd have to watch them get humiliated at home as the quote Unquote Division Champs Division. It doesn't deserve to have a playoff of the interesting. You said last year that when they played that Sunday night game against the Rams and they won thirty, seven ten and they've the eagles. Eagles thirty seven to ten, and then they beat the Ramya forty, four, twenty, one, you said you firepower did you see that same firepower against Buffalo? Nope what about the saints? Well, you know what? I feel about all those games they're inexplicably awful to me or at Tom. Brady. What happened? It was thirteen to nine how about at Carson wins seventeen but here's the thing if the shoe if it was reversed. You would be at Jason. Gary. Throat, you have a blame Mike McCarthy that one time for the Seattle to start will. You blame him for going to possibly Atlanta let him the hook. So we were both going to come out here in just massacre. WHO'S POISE? Yes. Yes. So Atlanta let him off the hook book for three weeks in a row. They've got enough to slow starts stars that you said Jason. Gary didn't have his team ready to play. Okay. Mike. McCarthy team ready to play apparently not yet. Okay. This is a home game and you better be ready to go because what Atlanta do in that game what what was it twenty nine hundred Twenty two nothing at one point one year nothing on the way to twenty, nine to ten. INEXCUSABLE, it's wrong. It's a really bad early signed from Mike McCarthy. So I'm with you on this and you know what puts lipstick on the pig so to speak. They're still number one in the whole. NFL and passing yards and their number one in total offense. Wow interesting. They're only eight point scored. How do you put that? That doesn't make sense Ryan but this. Dak. say two days ago most explosive offense I've ever played on well seems like dachshunds every year. And then they go eight it doesn't mean anything that if you go eight nate, if you missed the playoffs or you get one round that explosive office and this I've always just offense and defense like this skill can you get done what you need to get done when you need to? That offense for explosive. But when you needed to make a plan to end the game, you didn't get it done. The offense exploded when you needed to make a play against the ramp at the end of the game, you didn't get it done. Well, you got robbed. quarterback that was he made one great throw in that game and it was demanding for a touchdown. Touchdown set up the field goal dillashaw push it was not. Talk about ticky tack. Recall. It Karma it just came back against the Ram. They got a passing affairs called the end up leaving keeping the drive on fourth down they let me games these things balance out So back to my defense, it gave up four breakdown plays to Russell Wilson. I'm talking about where they just completely busted the coverage and you say is anybody coaching the defense do they have any concept of what they're doing? This is Russell Wilson. This is Tyler Lockett, the most gave McKay. Indicate tweeted yesterday Tyler Lockett is is the best receiver in football. Well, you can make a case for the. Can because he is so dangerous. I. Loose slidell bodies but nobody taking tyler. Lockett. Over Michael Thomas and I got it. Is. Extremely dangerous. Yes. It on the first touchdown nobody covered it, right. Okay. How do you? How do you defend that? I can't Mike Nolan? Over the third. Wide Open at the back of the Izzo. Mike. Nolan has been all over this lead no Mike. Okay. You're. You're saying I knew his father for a long time before him and his father was a really good football coach. But Mike's been up and down as a defensive coordinator and he got another job for America's team and I'm not seeing any results yet what? America's players. Okay. Right now, there's a lot of guys if performing on your. But. There's one guy who's been a revelation and I'm going to say him again because he's not getting enough credit for what's happening Alden Smith has turned back into a monster. He had five. What they call splash plays against Russell will. Listen where he just did something where you say what just happened a couple times he beat double blocks and annihilate where he's been no question the best player on the defense. Is Not even close. Okay and Trevan digs has six splash plays annoyed gave up the the bomb. He is a double move put on him and he got smoked and then he didn't quit on the fly any save the police and Everson Griffen has five point five splash plays. Those are three new players in my defense who are starting to come alive right before your very eyes. Those were my hopes those are they give me some hope that they could at least slowdown Nick Chub and by the way I fear Nick Chubb, like there are a few players where I say. It'll be okay this guy every week as. He Got Juku He's Taught Sigh. Yes, and he you can argue he's top two or three. Remembered the first time I saw nick up not that I didn't seem it because he killed my Oklahoma City. But in hard knocks remember southern. Doing Guy I. got it. But at the airport remember early hard knocks. He's waiting on his bags and some guy says who? Strike simple conversation and say what do you? What do you do? I. Play Football. Oh you do. Yeah. I played for the forgot. Forgot okay. That's the guy who's turned into top two or three running back. Yes and who could run wild all my cowboys, and if that happens, you will win the bet I believe they can at least keep him from running off the field. So what was your score I got thirty five to Twenty One dallas by fourteen points I believe in them so I'm happy to give you the six I said it and Make it five and a half. That says, but anyway, I do another case. About fourteen. No but I'll I'll. Do we do one case on this. I'll go to cases at six points to cases. You said, you want off the Bat let's do it right now. To. To cases for you get six point. Okay. Okay. Done. Thank you very much. Ask. Does you. Get skilled out of want a bit and he'll. He's kneeling me but I really want to bet all Gotti. Here we go. Boys cowboys game is one of our super six match ups this week. So make sure you get your fix and Sunday before kickoff for your chance at Terry Bradshaw's one hundred thousand dollars and for top stories, scores and more goto the Fox sports APP. But now let's move back to the NBA. defined the Lakers having their way with the heat in game one Erik spoelstra Jimmy Butler felt confident that Miami can still compete in this series. The heat will have an uphill battle though against the broad who searching for his fourth ring and looking to go up two games to none tonight. So Shannon, what is this war in tonight's game? I expected the Lakers to play a lot better. Than they didn't gain one especially if you start the game skill and I. Think the biggest mistake that you can make is underestimating someone I if I'm Frankie. Be Frank Vogel. I'm I'm getting my troops ready as their band and Gordon drag it is going to play in if they don't play, I'll make adjustments accordingly. Both listed as doubtful, but they were not ruling out. Correct. So you could they might try to play the biggest mistake. A person can make or anything skip it. If the militant I'M GONNA history gasket but anytime you go to war, you do anything they give what they call a risk analysis What are the risks of this will be about two and do the CD a collateral damage assessment. Okay. What's the risk analysis here? If you underestimate these guys and they're not playing then all of a sudden they show up because I got to believe believe what was probably what seventy two, seventy, three when they thought Willis re Willis Ain't played. He got a torn leg muscle player and woolas came out there and just seemed like just the flavor of the Laker didn't do you really do have to warn inspired the net expired the Knicks so he didn't last long. Right. I'm a firm believer skip if you respect. Everyone, you underestimate no one. If you the better team you shouldn't have a problem. The Lakers are the better team but the one mistake underestimate this team or anticipate that. Bam. In drug is going to play and I don't believe they'll make that mistake. I. Believe they'll come out there. They know the three games away from ultimate goal and they don't, and they will put a stranglehold because you know I believe that if the Lakers go to the heath capable of winning for the next five games. You don't believe that I don't believe that. So this is. This is a doer died like Lebron Wisey. So successful in close out games he says because I'm as desperate as my opponent is I feel I have just as much to lose as they do while I'm trying to close you out there trying to keep it alive they'll trying to gain momentum. Delayed win big tonight skill. I'M GONNA go I'll go one fourteen to ninety three really one, fourteen, ninety, three now then we'll play her but kept it there's no Bam I don't know how they keep a how did how did this little? Slowdown for the twenty one minutes, and then he can do anything with eighty. How do they keep the White House with the board? Olympic Yeah Olympic is a big body was kept. Guy. He, he keep the White House and he can't Aka Guard. ABC. Gar Keep, a dwight off the glass and guard. AB. Lebron. Leave Might Lebron down. That is Bam Bam we'll try and challenge. The. got like four or five pandemic is about to be wide open. 'cause he covered going three hundred miles an hour so. I think the Lakers win big I know that Lebron is telling me guys get and we talk about. The job is not done and you hear everybody keeps saying job is not done. Job is not done yet. We like we won. One, oh but it's the first of four not the first one. Yep. Okay. I hear everything. I'm going to have a hard time disputing anything. I did spend all last night racking my brain trying to think of a way the heat can steal this game and make this a someone interesting series. And I thought. NBA Basketball does often come down to a three point shooting content. Your Lakers who were one of the worst shooting three point shooting teams in the bubble twenty out of twenty to. Thirty three point, six percent made. Threes basically in the first quarter and a half of that game. And not only did they make eleven eight players made one or more three what eight and I thought Casey piece saved your. Bacon. Because when when. All was lost early he made back to back in twenty eight seconds to just sonic boomers. Any made a two point shots given the shock bar he did so that help but but it wasn't like it was the case EP memorial game that was his little contribution that was huge right and then Danny Green made three threes and then Lebron made another everybody's. Making. Threes Caruso is making threes. AD is making threes. It's just too good thinking what if they come out and have one of those nights that we occasionally saw the map during the regular season when they go five for thirty or whatever it is, right? Yes. Would that level the playing dazzle might accept the other team is going to have to make fifteen three. They need to be they need to be in that seventy. If you if you gonNA shoot like the rockets if you're GonNa make twenty, three, twenty out of fifty, three's. Not We there's a different ball game you make seventeen out of thirty eight threes is an entirely different ballgame. So in order for the Lakers Lakers because we saw what Toronto Toronto Portland did that when the Lakers struggle Portland was very good from three point land when just the rockets. They did. So you base girl from the three and use chrome from the three not beating them because they got to get that inside. You'RE NOT GONNA win the rebound in battle you're not GonNa win and in the paint battle. Okay. So If Goran Dragic tries to play reportedly he has a torn plantar across the bottom of his foot you know and know that is burning pain. Yes. It's. It's almost like I can't even touch micro. Cole correct. So help me out here. You can inject that. Yes. How long do you think he might last? It's just too hard. He. Survives on what quickness he has at aged thirty four because he can get by. Crafty he very crappy, but he needs to have a little. Acceleration right? Yes and I don't know he's their leading scorer in the playoffs. Okay. He was not there leading score in the regular season because he wasn't even starter. Kendrick Nunn was starter, right? He made first team all rookie undrafted. So he goes potentially back in the starting lineup tonight and as we know, he was the lone. If I can say, there was a bright spot he's worth eighteen, the second half fourteen in the fourth quarter he averaged fifteen during the regular season as a starter in sixty seven games. Can he give twenty tonight I don't know is does he just have sort of the feel right now right the Lakers you better you better get twenty Ryan. Plus. The big thing is that as you mentioned because none hadn't really played a whole lot. He was not heavily involved in the game plan on the Laker from a Laker standpoint of people we need to worry about now that the drug was injured and they saw now they're gonNA play they're gonNA play closer attention to him and what he's capable of could like you say if he wants first-team rookie so. As an undrafted plans that just goes to show you that he can score now and he had several blow by. Blue Globe not only blow by blow by dunk. It did okay. Kelly Olympic has been around for awhile. He's crafty. He's nasty. He's six eleven to forty he. He can play a little gray area, cheap shoddy bound show all you remember what he did to carry low I jerked his arm just about right I. Try to scare you note of a crowd of more made more threes in game one. Then he made in half a year what Lebron. CLEVELAND. You remember that. Claiming. He couldn't thought in ocean and oceans they sit on a cruise July early in that game, he stood up to Lebron. Yourself Walnut. By. The BROZA heyday was getting up there like he was gonNA enforce. Lebron says look Lebron stand. The, heat mess drake crowd or the Lakers Lebron. James that he knew even trade or skill. We don't like we don't like that trade though. Okay. So my point is, could Kelly Olympic caused a little more problem in the lane? Over a little while now, he he he he's more of a three from the free Portland Debate I. got it. I got it. But I'm just talking about somebody who can stand in least get in the way a little bit. Okay. Do they're going to give up the Miami? Heat? Is Seventy seven to thirty two run in the middle of the game like they didn't game one seventy. Seven to thirty two. No. But in the end did they get exposed in Game One? Yes. They did I said going into game one. This is an epic mismatch on paper and on the floor Bam not big enough. He's. He's smaller than Lebron, the point guard for the Lakers. I'm sorry you're not good enough because if they were defensive demons if they hung their hat on the defensive end. They don't play defense though it was painful to watch how bad their defense was. Well, how much better could it be without Bam, right I don't know can. Can he survive the whole game at least as a shoulder I could run. Like you said I, mean they have they have a bunch of specialists Jae crowder is a specialist Duncan Robinson is a specialist in the thing is that they in order for them to have? A value they need to be making shots because Duncan. Robinson. Is Not stopping anybody now he's too easy to stop if when your game plan just don't let him catch you said you you just gotTa stay stay up in right just don't let him give an inch because if you give him an answer. Yes. Okay and he is deadly obviously but he didn't get any shots. Him. If he forces them he'll miss. Yes. Okay. So in the end, this team goes as tyler hero goes I. don't care what you say if you watch closely the Celtics series when he went off, they survived an advanced right so he would have to score thirty to forty tonight and I just don't know if. What is the twenty year old? When he I just don't Don't want to get up early because he don't want. Bra. Govan. Doesn't stop. Edgy Marburg we we don't want very he don't want to escape won't they don't want to go to solitaire what's hero say I'm a bucket of you better be buckets plural tonight because he'd better have a lot of bucket. Out The okay. Okay, get a couple of buckets early he wrote Lebron. Okay so I think on sheer pride they hang in for a while and then I think the Lakers win by twenty not as bad as I got one twenty to one hundred Lakers and it's over in the heat will say we vote to leave the bubble. We're sick of the bubble and they'll call off the Fox get we got. Got Twenty one I'll say one fourteen would not say what? Fourteen ninety three so I got twin twenty year, right? You've got to win sounded worse. Wait you. What? Twenty to one hundred. Okay. So it's over. The next now. Lebron just taken his own shot at Kyrie. Well, talking about its relationship with Anthony Davis Lebron said they worked together so well because We're not jealous of one another a lot of people read between the lines on that due to the fact that Kyrie wants requested a trade out of Cleveland because he reportedly wanted to be more of the focal point on the teeth Shannon do you consider this shot? True to. Everybody knows it. There's no secret about that Kyri felt that after making that shot that he was on the level of Lebron and he deserved perks and benefits that Lebron while he was in the clavell ears organization Cap Refill, he should get those same privileges in saint benefits and when they weren't aborted into him, he became resentful of Lebron. I don't really know how to to to say skip and winning tandem can't be jealous of each other. There's a reason why Kareem and magic were able to get five titled Together Skip because although Korean with established inherited this new kid on the block, a magic still to this day refers to Corinne is Captain Don Korean. He called him cat. That's what he called Scotty. The Difference Between Scotty and Mike. Scott he never believed that he was on Mike's Level. So it's easier. Skip skip is maybe near the end. But in the beginning, but as long as I feel like he's better than. Just battling me up. You can do that but was you think skill there's something that call shacking Kobe to go ride. Is a simple. There's something to even after twenty years that coach Belichick and Tom Brady says, you know what enough is enough you go your way I'm going man something happened. Scale what happened here is that Kerry wanted the. What. Lebron had and he filled he was an equal player. Now if you noticed now when k. d. and carry became close where did it transpire that at the Olympics. What did just happen carry had hit the shot in the finals. He's a champion. Katie had just lost a three one lead. So. Now, at that point in time Karen he's okay TEDI level as a player. So he's talking to him I brag. We we hear. Yada Yada Yep, we own the broad level. No Bra. There's You can be a great player, but there's levels to greatness. and. Lebron is a step above Lebron is if There's a room that only a handful of guys have A to. Lebron has that key carry does not Lebron and Lebron made it abundantly clear? I was well aware of Kyrie's comments when I made my comments. I wasn't sure that but I'm glad you brought that up. Dave minimum. Road on ESPN that that Lebron was definitely aware because I wasn't sure he was so to your your first point definitely a shot back over the bow of Kyrie. We're not jealous of each. Okay. So neither mentioned the others name in their blasts that they took but they didn't need to everybody knows what's up I like how Lebron data because Lebron already knew what he wanted to say Lebron Paul, like he had to think he like, let me think why me and. Said, you already know what we ever said. Jealousy not jealous of each other. Yeah. Okay. Now, I'm going to give you my perspective on this. They are not. In large part because. Anthony came from New Orleans with nothing to show for it. It wasn't like he had. Won. Anything in New Orleans remember his regular season record in New Orleans was two, hundred, sixteen and two fifty. So he was Jaanus like to me in that he was a p. e. r. Prince that player efficiency rating yes. He would be near the top or at the top every year with nothing to show for it in the playoffs to speak of he had a COUPLA moments here and they're all we knew was he was wildly gifted. He was a two guard in what would call six ten or He's A to garden a sixteen right because he's got all kinds of guard skills three point shooting skills, handle skills, mid range, and he can go inside and do that stuff too. He can play really big or really small rick. Okay. Well, that's supremely talented where where you've got it all going on except Charles Barkley keeps pointing out does he have that dog busy of that killer mentality Charles says no well I believe Lebron in his heart of hearts saw that there's not that killer mentality Lebron has done a Phenomenal leadership job of making a his pet project becoming a big brother to him. But also becoming a close friend of his they hang together. Any. Practice ends with them leaving together. They arrived together off walk pretty much. Woke up one. They, wait the tonal then they walk up the total together. That's a great job by Lebron jest but clearly to me, he's the Alpha in the relationship because Anthony, this is all new to him. He's just happy to be a Laker in Los Angeles Oh. Wait I'm in the finals this is great to me. But you talk about tyree, you do realize car reboot Lebron I for Lotteries Okay I got it. Kyrie Irving thinks he's the best. Yes. Okay. I'm not sure ad thought he was the best coming in. He's like he's sort of tiptoeing into the situation. All of this is Great Lebron propped him up, reinforced him and made him believe that I think? Eighty now thinks, I'm actually better than Lebron I can do things even Lebron. which is great for Yes. He needs to think like they've been very fortunate so far because there has been no trial or tribulation, they have faced no real edge of the cliff adversity that Lebron is faced off in various playoff scenarios when you're game six at Boston in two, thousand, twelve year down three games to two Boston right that's edge of the cliff. You gotTA show some true colors there that night forty, five, and Fifteen Lebron. Okay. So my point is this new relationship and it's still pretty new. Show. Me where it's faced real adversity in the playoff run because I. think this has been Lebron's easiest path to the. Thing also, skip is that when you look at it is that yeah, they had a little adversity I, think what they lost three straight games in the regular season. There's nothing like the playoffs we'll let you mentioned being down to one being down three two or something like that where it's do or die but I think the thing is, is that when he when ad miss that shot against the nets? And You. Could tell eighty was down because he probably like he'll get a better look at a shot Lebron said I'm not even worried about it because they've in that same situation to arise I'm GonNa, pass him the ball again. Now they went back in practice that Berry shot the next day they showed the footage ad nailed it and Lo and behold what happened come playoff time almost to the very spot then he missed it in a big moment. I think that's when it because give. Sometimes it takes moments for you to realize you know what what they say. True. Dome I am I. Am Legit. Lebron reinforced. Skill. Is What is I? Didn't I thought I was a good player, but it wasn't until jar there we do. You realize especially you are I got that. Do you do I mean do? Do. Easily seventh-round. He's a given. You know I'm just trying to play my I want to step on anybody told I'm doing my job when he told me he's like you the ease in which you run rousing you catch the ball and the way you can accelerate decelerate. And I'm thinking to myself and I'm looking at him. Told me special. Okay. I'm special skill that's Lebron James. Lebron James. Till you your special. What do you think that's dumper Caruso. Because the Roger Group Hey I. Love a cerebral mad I. Love the where he plays the game. Let's give that age that ages some Joe Schmoe telling you that now. Lebron. James. The. Goat Jane You. Okay. But I'm going to remind you they haven't had that kind of a verse adversity that can reveal flaws in the relationship. Lebron has it been pushed to the edge of the cliff where and he's done this before where he'll quietly till the media well, I did my part but. The kid didn't do his. We know that game three when they tried to give him carry down the stretch and women. Lebron. Katie here tell the people that redid down the stretch he moments. From the three that's what he was and who that shot and game seven. One Lebron is best ring skills. We'll talk about six road that we would all by ourselves. Okay. Three point within the so you don't want to talk about that skill. I have seen Lebron go sit away from his team in the break before overtime of game one at Oakland in the twenty-seven NBA finals after he turned down the last shot and pass the ball to Georgia and did you Call Carr Redid in Boston. Woody we. Entirely teammates. Did you see what he did in Brooklyn Buffet this guy and that guy and now what he's talking about hope we don't need a cold drink. It was gonna be a collaborative different. You'll be Katie coach. One day is really Katie said he didn't even want to kill Katie said he wanted no part of leadership how you coach without? Being a leader that's what coaches person you have to lead me. Okay. But I warned ad before the year started be careful because a lot of players found it's really hard to play with him because the media is quick to leap on that it's your fault. It can't be Lebron's fault when Kevin Durant say fan boy media the, Fan boy medial say. Didn't hold up his into the bargain and it almost started in game number one remember Anthony Davis goes scoreless. And guess what skip. The reason why it's so hard play Lebron the same reason it was hard to play with magic in the same reason, the hard to play the Jordan Larry Bird because regular season does not matter. They're defined by championship defined by playoff runs in if you don't play well, that's why Paul George did not want to go to the Lakers he fully nobody's. That pressure was not going to be the same KC clippers as their in their backs have been to the wall wind during this plow front none. Thank you. When you great. You're back get to the wall you always. Take you don't have to back yourself into account when you dodge the bullet that was the clippers you've got the. I'm sorry you were good I'm sorry I. Don't know what it was. Maybe the week was damage maybe they didn't put enough dynamite. Number of gunpowder in the data, my whatever the case may be Anthony Davis is like the Proverbial Kid in candy store he is so happy right now you see what he said yesterday. Why don't we just do this nine more times being Lebron together What I won't. Yeah. They would try to say add. Innovated Lebron have that you're jealous of really he's a now maybe the reins I want one of that but he kept his promise. He told me he told me you don't get a rain so far he kept that promise to ad saying, this is so easy. I just want to keep doing it for nine more years. I'm so happy I would love for that to happen. Also I don't go jade and they'll be able to get you that more years I believe you but I believe he can give you three to for show is still the top a top five player. By I'll know about five six, very easy not to be jealous of each other when you're on the easiest path to ring. You go skill. You see that's not what skill I would agree with you. At the beginning of the season you said, this was going to be Lebron James Most challenging time until you until Yo guys gag. y'All guys get. Now you want to talk about as easy if it was so easy were the clippers here. Well. They were looking the whole year was based on. We will beat the Lakers in the Conrad you what you're looking for. What you're looking for what what you worried about what got in my house, what you're worried about if you Look at Marcus Bard, we we go. We got Reggie Jackson. We got Landry Shamet. We got don't give Noah or you just love it all day just the Kikhia Oh King Beverly Oddsmaker Cola Pepsi. Is over for Y'all know his over for y'all. Bill O. HE STEPH Curry. If I have left five, you nice I time I heard. The word. We're joined now by Fox sports. NFL analyst Michael Vick Michael What shut do you give camp in the Patriots against the chiefs this weekend? So he's a fifty, fifty chance to anything can happen in. The knowing the Patriots could be the first thing that upset knowing the Kansas City chiefs. This season a couple of things are gonNA have to happen. The defense is going to have to come to play, and unfortunately for the past is only one Stefan Gilmore. On a field, the other corner nefer right side opposite again was not step up tremendously and try to somehow someway lock down the trio receivers. The Kansas City chiefs has that. Pretty much ran right though on Baltimore Ravens last week in the Baltimore Ravens had a great secondary and I watched them go up and down to fail a way with ease and It was because of the speed that they possess. The route combinations and the play calling them angry that made that game. So difficult. But in terms of pages, ball-control is going to be essential. Whether this cam running back back Midi, they're going to have to control the clock. Chiefs off the field as much as they can and try to score as many points as they can. But I think the biggest candidates game is just went into game time possession are not lend loans get out and be as dangerous and a threat is GONNA be because you can't stop Patrick you can only hope to contain them. And is going to let him loose. In as a as a team, you've really got to find their rhythm doing the Patriots and I think that's going to be in the run game may have to control the clock down to control the time possession in keep patching home on a Saturday night. Next Avery. Does Not just time of possession and ball control you have to get touchdowns you can't control the ball for five six minutes making kick a field goal because the likelihood of the likelihood of you winning a game in their building twenty to seventeen seventeen fourteen is not as not likely to happen they just put so much pressure on your now if they're going to run the football like they ran last week against the raiders and they're going to capitalize the end of those possessions and give you touchdowns. Okay they're gonNA have outstanding chance. You mentioned the likelihood of them slowing. Down is a very good and listen to. Escape when he threw that touchdown to the fullback, Sherman? Did Not know he threw the underhand that's not the way we do it way we practiced it not just going to show you how much carbon. drew it up. This shows you how much confidence this kid is playing with he another level he's feeling so confident that you know what I can do no wrong. He's yet to throw an interception in September with all those touchdowns and so. I JUST Ended for some reason skipped since he's been back. Been Kansas City we remember that job he did on a Thursday night the Patriots coming up that Super Bowl. That was the coming out party Kareem put when he was four hundred. Almost had caught hundred at Foxboro Foxboro. Everytime we see them putting up these big John Moma's numbers the even the game that they lost up. What a forty, forty, three, Forty Ballgame the AFC championship game was like. Thirty thirty, six, thirty or something like that ballgame on the Patriots Gordon Overtime. So even when he's had better defense when he had all those defenders and he's been able to move the ball against them. So now they don't have nearly the defense is going to be incumbent upon Cam to control this game capital. And capital we're touchdowns instead of field goals or this thing could get out of hand in a hurry. So it doesn't sound to me like either you guys give the Patriots much of a chance that what I'm hearing. Yeah I. would. Always GonNa come get something up. It's leave but would I be surprised if Kansas City won by seven to ten points? No. So you'd think they. Like. Go, ahead. Bill. Belichick is going to bring some type of recipe defensively that's going to keep him around, but it's going to be up to the offense. The school points like Shannon said, the defense will be able to sustain. But I like I said, you can only contain patch for so long. You know he's GonNa get he's GonNa get off because remember skipping. Okay last week he control waller. Okay. You Take Traffic Kelsey what you want to do with a real Miko harmony. But trust me fell check we'll take away Kelsey I okay. Visit your security blanket just take it away. You can't have traveled Kelsey and Hope Gilmore can somehow sang with with tyreek which you probably it's just too much speed. Speed. Four three Nova I got it I got. Okay. I'm in a tricky spot on this game I will either qualify or disqualify myself. I'm rooting against Shannon short because we have a big bet that top obey will win more games than bell check will win this year. So I need chiefs. I'll be honest with you. I will go ahead and pick the Patriots. But I I'm sorry picked GE could but I think the Patriots have a real shot here the harder I look at it the better gets for New England I just like the way Cam is playing. He's playing some of his best all around football of his career. It just feels right to me. I'm afraid of it because I've got that bet with you right. His offensive line is playing at an extremely high level. Pro Football focus loves that offensive line's second pass blocking and fourth and run block. Right? They lead the league in Rushing I. Know It's a small sample size, but they lead it at one hundred and seventy eight yards a game. I believe they can go in there as both you guys suggest and do what parcells used to say shorten the game just control. The football is Michael said you gotTa Win The clock. And they are highly capable of winning the clock because you have three real threats you got Sony Michelle, you got REX burkhead who should not be underestimated in this game he's played against the chiefs in the AFC championship game. Right and you've got Cam and not that I think is going to run for one hundred. But but if he gets fifty or sixty yards, it's just hard. You can't get the man down he by Russia's like he had against Miami. He might say fifteen times just might have. Yeah. Okay. So then on the back and can they stand up maybe strategically they can if they take Kelsey white because they took their waller out of the game this I got I thought I. Thought they. Handle. But I didn't think they'd just Nixon. Yeah like just blank him out but okay. So the point is that. I believe this is the perfect spot for New England to go there because they're coming off the game of the year on Monday night football right and they played great. They massacred their rival growing budding rival Baltimore in so. They're going home for a New England team that doesn't have Tom Brady anymore. So it's hard to sort get as up for them as you did for Tom. Brady, right okay. So I'm not going to pick it because I'd be pigging against myself, but I'm not going to be shocked if New England pulls this game off because all the ingredients are there for an upset to me well, I think the biggest thing is Eddie and eerie understands what you bill represents. What's his? Teams knew how they normally play. So they won't pass this team because who knows this might be a team I have to see down the road skipping the if I see them down the road I still want to plant that seed y'all know y'all and who knows if they're going to let fans at some point back into the stadium? Yeah I think to have probably another fifteen thousand fans this but as the season progresses who knows you might that might get up to seventy. Seventy but maybe thirty, forty, thousand and thirty thousand fans and have forty thousand fans that could be a big difference so I want you to come to my it's here I understand skill is still not to say, but I still want you to come to my building if we play the playoffs, come see me. Okay. So I want to get Michael's input on this. Cam said a couple of days ago. I'm such a different. Personnel I'm such a different personnel and it stopped me in my tracks like really because I see the same camp I don't know about you but I, see fun loving he he's letting his charisma is charm just just flow out of it. Right? Right taken over practice taking over the locker room taking over the sideline. Yet I think I know what he's talking about And I hate this word humbled because if you say cam got humbled, I think that he chewed it's your switch because it comes across like the. White establishment finally, Kim right in I. Despise that insinuation also because that's not what's happening. What did happen to Cam Newton was He had to face his football mortality. He got cut. He just sat on the market for three months because he was a little broken down was he had three surgeries and I think a lot of people are saying who? Are. You are you done or you can you bounce back from this? So he keeps talking to new, England about nothing's promised I have to come in here early stay late every day because I don't know no day is promised here right so he's acting like. This value to me like he took it for granted. Obviously. Picking the draft of the MVP. Yes. Michael, Gimme some input on that. What are you seeing in Cam from a distance that that that speaks to I'm such a different person now Let's. Let's not let's not sugarcoat debate I. said it correctly man the were humble. Significant meaning what Cam is going through right now and it's humbling in a good way is someone in a sustainable way. So where can't function for the next? Eight years of his career, his long lived career and be happy about it. I. Have a different understanding and a true appreciation for what he's come from and. Camp Wasn't playing this best cam head injuries and then like you say can was. All of a sudden cut by the Carolina Panthers and it was some homeless camps. So Cam had. Hit the reset button step outside of himself. You know and at him. So from from the external essay, what can I do better? What did not do right obviously the injuries but that comes along with football. What about my plate about myself he's always been a fun loving person. But every time I've been around Cam. I enjoy every second of it because he comes in he just he gravitates everyone in. Absorbs the room that's just how he is the the big six, five presence in a and and is guy giving. But at the same time talking about football near profession in something that you love you can be album when it's taken away from you dealt with it in Philly and it motivated me to come back and beat the best thing focus on every detail and try to be the best that I could be on any given situation down a distance and most importantly not disappoint my coaches and that's what cam strapping off to right now I think you don't want. A Disappoint, Bill Belichick Josh mcdaniels the people who are taking a chance. And show them that I'm the guy long term. It's not all about me. I'm more in and we can make this happen. So this is great to Yes cam has been humble and it comes on different forms and I think it just happened the right time for. You, you definitely don't want to let the people down there. Believe in you school no matter what that was the only bill belichick Josh mcdaniels missed a crowd. They were the only organization that believed Cam Newton could help their organization. So you don't want to do anything that's going to let them down. So you're going to come early to make sure you're prepared. You're going to stay late to make sure you over prepared and to put the best football you know what there are a lot of. US The Cam Newton but you know what? y'All bought into the hype that I'm a distraction by antics away address one team look past that and looked at the player on the field, and they're reaping the rewards that and the cool part is that they still allow Cam Newton Cam. Is mentioned right now. Yeah. Not. Right after the Lakers went up thirty, two points in the heat called a timeout l.. A. Was all celebration with the game enhance according to Chris Haines Lebron didn't liked what he saw yelling his teammates to stop it and stay locked in because quote this bleak. Shannon, do you like what Lebron's? Ask. You is so fresh in his memory because he remembered he he he talked about it. He said in two thousand eleven dwayne way three point shot in front of the Mavericks Bitch. PUT US up fifteen and we were celebrating because we thought we'd already one game up and they wanted decisively and it looked like they were about to win game to take a stranglehold on this series and Lo and behold what happens. The Mavericks going to twenty two to five run to end the game and dirk, Nowitzki gets a left handed shot with three seconds left in the end up winning the game get some momentum even though the. Be He won game three the Mavericks at that point said You know what we beat them and no matter how far they get ahead we always chase them down they feel they could chase them down in broad steel has that says still ticks me off to this day, and so he's like give it as a fine line because they were in staples the bench wouldn't need to go crazy like that the fans would be going crazy. They would give him the integer because remember early in the bubble Lebron was saying we're at, we need our sideline to give you know give us some juice because it's like. This make give you hear the squeak of the choose the core you hear the switch, another net will it's a fine line because the players are trying to give them edited because even though they're starting to have family member and more personnel there they can't hear. You gotta sit there. Bush. The block man looking at it though is nothing. So the bitch is trying to get them going but Lebron hold on hold run. So if I get with the bench trying to do but I also understand Lebron's of Byu he's. In hard because they realize that their close their three games away and they don't WanNa miss this up but don't worry about it go. Hold on. Hold over the celebration. We got some plan for Y'all. Coming Down Tile Baby. Monday. Over the Lakers. Okay help me out here. The heat have a dirk or a Jason Kidd No. No, they do not. So I'm having a little bit of a hard time with this S. H. over. There they were up thirty two points that they had concluded a seventy seven to thirty two run and he's sitting in an over because I remember game to back at twenty eleven. Yeah. I got a call Baloney on this one I'm sorry. It was way over he knew it everybody knew it and I also have to call Baloney on this revisionist history about what happened in twenty eleven, which was Lebron's I go round in the files with the Miami Heat. What you said is true Dwayne hit the three. They kind of got a little too full of themselves. To Yup which he is he does that and usually he just backs it right up gay. Bragging if you can do it right if you back it up. Okay so they lost that game, but then they went to Dallas and they won game three layer up two games to one. So it's not like that that collapse wreck them through the way they're in perfect position to close this thing out fairly quickly up two games to one. And what happened was something that Lebron is trying to camouflage it's like he's trying to take the onus off what really happened the rest of that series, which was he melted down it was the greatest superstar. Ever witnessed in a link. In, a long series on the big stage in the NBA The chosen one became the frozen one and I don't know how to sugar coat this because in the last three games, he averaged fifteen points a game this guy capable of average in thirty games, right? Well, no, and in the last three games, he went to of twelve from three, which is seventeen percent. He went four of ten from the along, which is obviously forty percent. It was way below what he's capable of doing and yet on the biggest moment. He just couldn't handle it. He learned to handle it the next year when they broke through against the thunder but let's not revise history over what happened. He's trying to blame the whole series loss on game to the. That's not what he said. He said he's blaming that game. He said, let's not let's not get the game is not. They about thirty two, but it was still like six minutes in the six or seven minutes left in the third and it's still having entire fourth horner. By then Bam's gone dragages gone and Jimmy. Butler. Turned his ankle so bad I couldn't believe he wasn't going to and and they still would would all that on the court they still could deflect fifteen to thirteen to fifteen points. Oh so that's why he played almost the whole forget who? State had till won't kill in State Yeah. I want killer instinct on triple W.. We. Try. Try to get what into the night. Can, triple double because it looked to me like it was the all-time front running stat padding in the fourth quarter to play all the way to the one twenty, three mark of a game in which you led by thirty two points. We that afraid of Kendrick Nunn. Yeah. Because CPB. Did the game end up? Did they end up winning by thirty two? No do you believe Russia if Lebron sits out. Do. You believe they win this game by thirty to seventy I think they went about seventeen what do you think? They win this game by I don't know I like their bench. They got a lot of far let jr and to Algiere. Not. Jerry. Queen Yeah I. Love Queen Cook as Lebron said before the start is good a catch and shoot points shooters. There is no. Every time he's in there I'm like it was really we will try to get all these guys and playing time. So they can say they plan to Quin cooks already play the final with the Golden State last couple years. So but we're GONNA try to give you guys playing time. It'd probably going to be gained three game, but we don't play entitled. So what are you doing? What if I hate to even bring this up I'm gonNA knock on wood before I even say this what if the king had gotten hurt in won't five minutes he played basketball playing basketball has been gone for the rescue group upset with Tom Brady be in the game. Throwing passes and nobody has the Tom Brady got going. BELICHICK's a he quarterback we play football if he gives her, he gets hurt. Lebron. James is ending year seventeen. You should take the opportunity to rest up did we must arrest remember Break your career. He's has got that risk why Yada Sir James Harden. Russ. Everybody else got that fame amount of risk it not like he got five months and everybody else got five day. All kids compared to the King Oh. You playing google to see that we really could've made that push because we're just bust Janas. Hey we're just did a number oil. So we get ready to make that push and so we really could really do some damage and got some both in the MVP boating. But since they say wants to season stopped at that point the MVP boating was supposed to stop at that point. I think a Janas built up a big enough but we will come in with don't worry about it i. Said Dachshund we were planning our best basketball when the pandemic they needed reps new needed rest you rest know what y'all needed was talking about how great your when you hadn't won anything you noted that you crown. Impact bail. It's Y'all because he was already talking if our time is your time for what know what anything so no one this year. Where why didn't they were the? Lead the we three games away. y'All three hundred days a week. We three games. Wait. We got a new coach who goes you. Title. Dot, Lu, you'll put us over the top next year. UTAH. Absolutely, he knows how to do so. One for Lebron Lameta. Hyogo make moves and you got no draft capital we don't need. All you guys own expiring contracts, which are GONNA do. Nothing. Like you said, they got a salary cap. So would you do how you go to play and I know Steve Bardo by cat when you were seventy billion so what you go into the penalty but what you go trade? They'll figure it out. Jerry West is running things. I want to know where squad trainer I would've the lab we got to get lab by Gavin by Guy Layup, not working right now. Blues. Awhile savage. Cure for that your guys in the wine cell-. That's where he is now by got. His vintage got a caveat to- something. He led a case he will not Cambridge. WB. ooh. It every once in a while you get a nice big a nice four body. Silver Oak. But for the most part, he say that Rodgau for afterwards really. Yeah. Okay. All of the by Hornsby going to be on that rotschild afterward you got your handy he's got his. Over words to live via an APP. Take Long for Doc rivers to get another job after parting ways with the clippers doc has agreed to a five year deal with the seventy sixers and will now be tasked with getting well feed and Ben Simmons over the Hump in the east docks one, NBA title, of course, came in the east with the Celtics. So Janet, can you see doc winning the East with embiid and Simmons I cannot? Be easily getting better Janas is going to get better who knows what they're going to move. They're gonNA make heat or up and coming Boston young they're going to get better. Thank him. But was kinda nicked at the end of the year that's why they started arresting him down the stretch and he never regained that in the bubble tatum Jaylen Brown and Marcus smart. They got the makings of a really good team next now have Kadian Kerry and they're probably GONNA have. Carers Liberte, they're going to know. The question is I think one of the reasons dog was hired skip. That they believe he can get through to to Joel embiid. Joachim, you take a serious you boo hoo kid you not in shape you make up the core to tie the you tired you love you lag. You got the court you're not training. You don't take your training serious. You don't take your nutrition series. You don't take the game series you boo Javale you fooling yourself. Is Hard for me to see how you can take the next level. Until, Ben Simmons can shoot a jump shot. Skip how can I say man Ooh he could be a great pitcher if he can just locate the ball what kind of Thanksgiving you'll basketball player at some point in time you the point guard and you're not gonNA shoot no jobs arts. I just don't see. I just don't see it I I don't. I don't like this. I don't like the parents skip I really don't. But Joel Embiid Joel Embiid Ben Simmons need to work on the shot and feel comfortable enough in the game to shoot. Joel embiid me take training shake nutrition Sarah's take the game serious. and. He can't be missing twenty games guilt. He'll play two games and then he's out a week he'll play five games in and he's out four games you. The unacceptable. So cannot see them winning the east no to make a long story short no. Can I see them winning the East? Yes. I believe in Doc rivers, I always have I. still believe in Joel Embiid much more than you do i. agree with everything you just said, but I have seen it. Come to pass where you can see what he is a nuclear weapons. He is. Right. He is about as right as everybody in the game he can go forty and twenty. He can make three point shots which he takes too many but he can make them yes and he can make eighty eighty five percent of his free throws which is extraordinary for a man that big right you've got all of that operating if he ever get somebody to push the right button for him to take it seriously on and off the court. Okay. I'm hoping that dossier that guy. If anybody can get through to him. I believe that a man with docs credentials with his deep background with his rings and in his or his ring and in his personal he he is. He is so personal. He can reach. He remember he got the best year ever of Tobias. Harris. Can Go twenty a game. You can go like a twenty seven. That's what he did for docs clippers. So you look at this and then the other buttons to push and Ben Simmons. Yes. He's another one. I'm not sure if he really cares about this or walking triple double is a tremendous defensively he's first team all defense team all defense. And I'm guessing doc is thinking we need a point guard and it could be been Simmons would he take that role, but he has to be able to make a if you dare him to shoot that shot, you gotTa, make a few or you're going to become aligned dot one point guard for us a point guard. So my point is Al Horford is still there Josh report. Okay but. WASCO okay. But Josh Richton Mike Scott. Shake Milton they have pieces. To puzzle that look like it almost worked in eighteen, thousand, nine, hundred, fifty, one and thirty one and who made the lucky shot in the history of the playoffs. Shot. Them you like the sixers better when they had spicer's they had narrowly they did have illicit. They were really good now now the celtics blew him out and five games. But if you break Al Horford and Ben Simmons, worth, the space. You got two guys operate. Yeah. Both guys can shoot threes but al Horford wants to play. To play lack of small you big Bro, Yep. But the telltale sign to me was was docking leap at this opportunity he leaped it happened in a day I think the thing is is that didn't want to rebuild doc is not for the rebuild. Remember he left he got up out of Boston because they were looking to reveal and I think sometimes I think he's still looks at New Orleans as a reveal their young young I mean am going to be twenty one. A Zo is what twenty three Josh. Josh Hard Is Twenty Five Brandon Megan twenty four the true there. Are they going to keep holiday had to go look to move holiday somebody some somebody will give them something for holiday, but it's going to be younger players. So you're GONNA be even in more in a reveal. Okay. So obviously, I picked the clippers to win at all this year in large part I kept telling you because they got doc and you got you with Asia. The Celtics are the Clippers Today here. If it's tie Lou. About. that. Guy. Live the point about what happened with doc I still love him as coach I did not love what happened though against the nuggets something went really wrong. Just remember about the political chaos that was probably taking place behind the scene, right? You got looking over one shoulder, the great. Jerry West's obviously great player and he was a head coach. Right. Looking over the other shoulder is Lawrence. Frank who has been a head coach in this league Iraq and to your right is tie lose obviously WANNA ring is ahead coat and overseeing the whole operation is a guy we're seventy billion dollars won't take no for an ad right wants results now. They did this have you have that kind of capitals? Give you get results now? This place. Okay Mr. Bob we have the jet ready to go. So I don't know what was happening but it looked like dot got miffed about something and just folded his arms basically instead that's enough. About here, the guy to talk about the best way and basketball and go eleven in the second half. He gives me zero points in the quarter. You talk about I got a second superstar who's who's been crashing and burning like an asteroid what I can't understand. So I'm my arm because Y'all tell me these guys which are fading. They should be able to figure this thing out what my guy can do. You remember skip bayless you toby is going to be so much computer. You Got Frankie beal decide you got. You Got Jason Kidd you've got guide the been coaching looking over fragrant be shoulder Yahoo. Kick back like a guy the became we'll. We'll do a little dot because the heavens opened and it broke perfectly for your Lakers. We may you don't get break we make breaks easiest path to the finals ever in the history of the finals there's been no easier path. You know look let's get lower. What happened when Houston Denver what look? Look look what happened when preparation meets opportunity you prepared the opportunity presents itself. Okay. Unprepared. The bubble we're GONNA get a chance to go people title. Did you know you guys Got Dallas? Brazil. You should've got you should've lost in the first round Hep. Think of both of Cape, if Juror had raised his ugly head in the first in the first game. Think. You would love that game you had router. So you should've lost in the first round and put the misery. So you hope would have been dashed early on but what happened to you? Got You really thought you don't go somewhere. You're not going there's no little greater letdowns get used to to me all the time had uncle would probably GonNa, take it to the store we'll go get ice cream I'm gonNA come get on Sunday and you know what happened he knows shoulder. Letdown Nee, you feel let down that. I. Love It. Well I'm rooting for dock to go to the east and pull solo on the least. You could my guy ran that everybody about The best player in basketball now resides in the East Risk Kevin Again, what again where he ran he ran Smoke really knows what what does in the West reread him by the West. He had Opportunity Homo Skip Kevin Durant I I becoming a free agent. So he could have easily came to the mix he came to the mood. He if he if he wanted to go ahead with Bron, he didn't WanNa. Go head to head. He wanted to leak up with two other guys that had already been established that at all where. They wanted to draw seventy, three and nineteen. He will no smoke and then got you food over at UCLA. He hit the shot right between is he has owned Lebron James Don't do this. Don't do that now. As the twitter debate continued over how Great Lebron is last night Damian Lillard. Decided to Chime in responding to a tweet about how people disrespect Lebron and that he is a once in a generation talent will live responded with four words sleep really crazy though. So Shannon, D like dangerous bonds for a little bit because dame gets it. He's absolutely right. Lebron? Is Not only adrenaline racial tallahassee transcendent. Player. And those guys don't come along they'd load. Generation talent and not be a transcendent player. I think we'll all agreeance skip weaken debate, gold status all we want to but I don't think there's anybody willing to debate that Lebron. James. They transcend the player we agree on that. Sure. Okay. Okay just making job. I'll bet you regretted fantasy. Don't do that. I mean I got him in the top ten. Maybe. So what do I have like seven? Four. Championship. Before Championship four, five, vp. Eight you just head and said it's a done deal. Read. That's not what I say. Jinx Yourself. We've never seen. SKIP. said. We've never seen a guy be this good for this length of Tab. Players that lead knows how good unless you're envious now you jail. Good I WANNA know the plan to look the card player named occur player in the League? There's you know what? I I wouldn't trade my curriculum. Name current plan that would say that right now. They'll be finals four, four, four, four MVP's thirteen time when it's all said and done. Skill everybody like says look. The player in the League knows how great ideas for the most part, a large portion of those not everybody not all the every should feel a certain way about something. But for the most part, they have a healthy level of respect for Lebron and what said at the end he's we didn't do that with Jordan we just admired and appreciated his greatness but every chance people get they try to take their shots at Lebron. Don't worry about it. You got this keeps Dannebrog worth is a done deal says Shannon Sharpe. Okay. Here's my take on this I find it. Fascinating. That Damian Lillard replied to a follower. Who Basically said look? I'm paraphrase tweet but this is how I took it. He's saying look we know Lebron has some flaws but why should we just? Ignore those embrace his greatness because there's so much greatness to embrace. Everybody has okay I got it. Here's my problem with that. What is my job? What happens every day when I come in here and sit in this seat for two and a half hour opposite you on undisputed? Yes. My job tends to revolve around. Debates that you establish that you ramrod in which you say that Lebron James is greater than Michael Jordan who I consider the greatest performer and competitor in the history of all sports. Right I've never seen anything like the force of nature that was Michael Jeffrey Jordan and yet you have the audacity you would dare to come in here on a daily basis and say Lebron James Goat. Goatman. So I'm forced into a position of having to defend the obvious goat. By constantly referring to the obvious flaws in Lebron James. But that's the problem. That's the problem that people want to push back is because you say Lebron has flaws enjoyed does not you're unwilling to relent then Jordan have clause if you if you would come out here and say, Jordan has some you make it seemed like in people making see Jordan was flawless and he was not he is not the only polling he was flawless not stop skill. flawlessly six and on the files with six MVP's Ha show me a flaw healthy out. So he went every game on the way to the finals whatever championship. So he had flaws that he wanted all those championships. Yes, skip. Okay. He's he's he wants six there's no denying but he played fifteen seasons. So what happened in those see? So there were flaws before the profession in the there were flaws at the in am I correct. Flaws at the end of what and when he went to wash. Yes. Okay. He quit because his coach got five quit quit for three years in his late thirties and thirty, eight, thirty, nine, he went to Washington and was just a ceremonial. The measure question still average twenty and six. Let me ask you a question. If he had won a title in Washington, would we say Jordan only had six titles or he has seven? Well obviously nobody expects them in winning titles and wash. Either go. Walk. Because he he had retired for three years and came back near forty years of retirement years. With three four. So I'm just saying, Hey, we younger man if he knows if you go no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no, he hadn't gotten pushed out for those two middle years. Know what he got doing, you know it. All up asking you is that. If he goat. He's got to be overcome age overcome age. Okay. What are you talking about to go there because you come? You this what you told me that go times ten no no. No. They forced him out Chicago would I told you I ask when I say Lebron laws, you say Lebron should've beat. The Big Three Celtics if he'd go if he got a beat the Spurs and he got to beat the big warriors he go. So I'll you if he'd go. Join should a beat the Big Three Celtics? He should have beaten a bad. beat him by himself. No he didn't wrote a whole book about him versus business called the Jordan rules. No. Detroit had a whole set of rules to try to stop it and somebody from. Detroit. I should have wrote a book the bad boys rule Jordan. That's what they did until he finally went to the way. Watch. They weren't. Yesterday. Said watched us you know swept the van boy here's The thanksgiving. This is what you know guys in the ninety s did not take care this guys do now you know that I know they don't train like they do now they don't eat like they do. They don't have full time around the clock because we're Jordan to try to get over the Hump against the bad business guys do that now. Guys guys like that in highschool guys got their training at A. Early Age now yell this notion that you try to believe. I, agree with Dame congratulations day to day and say forget buying a car. He bought a car dealership got a whole dealership update. Congratulations way to go but he got a little bit of a problem with what he tweeted an answer because he's co-signing what his followers saying and. I thought he was competing against Lebron James in that. You had no problem is based Admire Tab Tab I. Bet you. underlined. I did say that home so liberty not competing Michael Jordan when he called him. God and sneakers. When Magic Johnson not compete against Michael Jordan when you say the best player or they're not competing. Demar Larry Bird wanted to rip is. Little. Bit. Water the. Lakers diddy yes. He's saying I, think he wants to be Lebron's I. See. What you do skip next sign with clutch. What you do you? Anytime somebody praises I'll say something good about Lebron or they want to be you if they say something good about Michael Jordan is the truth and usually what you do all these people what did Mike Malone. What did they say what did this say with as as something about Lebron about about George is Gospel when they say something good about Lebron, they just admired. Lebron. James has lost six finals that's incomprehensibly wrong Michael one six and went zero, six, zero, versus three and six. So while I'm trying to figure out what he only get to six to go so he only became he was only the goal for those six years and years before in the years after he wouldn't go. Three years off and he let himself go and he's smoked too many cigars and play too much that Lebron that we maintain this level of excellence for eighteen for seventeen years eighteen. Let me go and put it out there eighteen. You get to run over the Miami. He don't go go go really eat them up. y'All y'all. y'All, beating Charlotte. Hornets don't go see tin cans eating at. Camp Skill, you do realize that. Michael Jordan. Murphy people we get to. Appreciate that he's a great player just. No. Kevin Durant and Kyrie. Irving. Pulled the curtain back on the Nets coaching strategy. Harry said quote I don't really see us having a head coach durant agreed and said, it would be more of a collaborative effort between the two. All stars newly hired head coach. And assistant coach John Bon Shannon how big of a problem you have good books. Scuba is your who. Got a Africa Mersal I'll take I'll take advil Jack go camps. Three to get you one, you might need a migraine medicine because everybody gives you one. Who? says. This. I mean the guy's high what two weeks Steve. Job. To, wheat and they are we'll either hear colby. Scale collaborate for what. Oh. My goodness. This is this is what happens when you're a great player. And you think you'll leader visit, they don't four display. They. These two guys get are not leaders. They're great players automatically think they should be on. The should be leaders because they're great cabinet ran told you want to lead Cabinet rank all I wanna do I just want to whom all that other stuff they could lead. Now he WANNA coat. Do, they understand that a coach job is delete become a leader man not only just XS knows what you've got to lead these me. and. Here we you. It might be me. Look here. tyree leading. Angolan. I want to go nowhere he going I wanNA. Partha. that. Katie I'm good. Tremendous players, but I followed them. Be Me one day who knows it might be Katie one day it might be Raleigh. Ain't nobody misses Steve Nash. That's get. Yep. Good look that's your team though of young guys. Go look at. This. Is why I just might pick. DOC sixers? East next year is that how can you will? This is why? Obviously, the nets will be talented enough next year to play the clippers in the NBA finals because the clippers are going to win the West next. Still Metro. But this is why next year's nets could turn back into the knots as in not. We, need them to be there. This is so wrong on so many levels. This is even worse than saying Earth is flat. Yes. This is beyond earth is list. This is a I I've never heard a star and Co signed by the other star saying you know what? We don't even need a head coach because some days I can be the head coach and then other days you can be the head coach, right? What do you? Then you don't get it because somebody has to final say especially in a moment of crisis. Yes. Who's going to take the last shot? What player we going to call or as simple as are we going practice tomorrow or not practice tomorrow Tom Situation Yeah the rotations I guess in other words, tell you better go to determine who plays in how much they play apparently so what's our strategy going to be? Are we going to play zone or man to man I don't know Kyrie might come in tonight and say I feel like playing. So what does the mashing Jacques Bar widely even their. Free money if Carrion. Kate Eagle. So what do they even need a code? So let's just say hypothetically that docket just been hired to coach the team do you think they would have said that? No, they wouldn't say that would have way too much respect for doc and they would know doc would not sit still for any of those kind of comments. Correct. Instead they went out and hired. Once again we've seen it happen many times before and sometimes work out, but they hired a great player. With. Zero. Head coaching. So. It's it's okay. They think in their minds and to me. Go ahead WASCO you know why they feel is okay. You got the job because we said, yeah, they do. That's why you feel it's okay to talk. That's how when someone feels that you're beholden to them yet, they'll talk you any kind of way. So this is why these two they act like to me. They're obviously supremely talented battle and they've proven it at the highest level both of them have but but they operate like kids to me. They're two kids who are besties and they say, Hey, we'll. If we do this and for some reason, Kevin follows are- like crazy Kyrie is proven away from Lebron not to be a great leader obviously thought he could be. In Boston but leading is not throwing all your teammates under the bus. and. The bus. Yes. That's what he did. Multiple Times until he alienated the entire team and the entire franchise correct and finally it wouldn't work anymore and Kyri had to get up out of there. Yes. Right. In Brooklyn you under the bus he's already at it again, but he's best eased with K. D. and at the last second, he's saying, why don't we go a why don't we go to? Brooklyn. Brooklyn Kevin's like this way. I read it is like, okay if that's what you WANNA do why don't you want to go to the Knicks. They're the the flagship of you know. There are. The Knicks pay the or he didn't want to be a savior, he just want to just go who but if they both went and saved the Knicks, would that not be historical that would would that be a legacy? Katie. He just WanNa go now he wants to go who earlier he wanted to get them championships. Yeah. Because you know skip the longer you go without a championship, the more the pressure mouse because at the end of the day when you tell like Kevin Durant you judged by championship that's just the way it is I I hate that it's become like that is either championship or your bomb, but that's the way it would. So now he just WanNa go who that is what he wanted to do before he wanted to Golden State become overwhelming I mean everybody's like. You saw I don't even WANNA watch it now ain't nobody being golden stake nobody coming out of the West but Golden State? Go in. CLEVELAND. The cavaliers just don't have enough amount you WANNA watch the final. About now all of a sudden he just WanNa Hoop. Stop It. Like. I said, well, Steve Nash Good Look I. Wish you the best brother I really do, but that's what happens. Gift you somebody's killed. They help you get a job in every time you turn around. Job You I. Did what idea for you? What did you got to remind people what you're? Doing. Well Watch what? Drama King is This is going to be. Not I can't wait to see how this net situation unfolds deck and Baker end up in a shootout on Sunday back. This week. Baker. Mayfield. said that Sunday Against Death Prescott in the cowboys might come down to a shootout and Baker said that would be great. So Shannon, what's DAX line what's bakers line, and what is the final? Back piling up a lot of yardage in garbage time he probably GONNA throw for another three, eighty five, maybe even four hundred yards going being garbage time they're gonNA catch the. Really but this is what I do. Know it Baker Mayfield throws for three hundred and fifty yards. They're losing this game this needs to busy. No Mature Toby Chubb Rocket Kareem Hunt go run for two fifty in what's your score twenty, nine, twenty, six, twenty, nine, twenty, six. That's not a lot of garbage time. There's still a game. DIG will be behind. You know how y'all do. y'All get. Fifteen fifteen points and then make a valiant effort. So it's GonNa be twenty nine to three going into the fourth quarter and they're going to roar back to twenty six I think they'd probably be like twenty eight. Twenty nine to tweet. I see it upside down from you and I'm going to be right this time I got big day for my Guy Dak. twenty-five but thirty, five for three, seventy, five, three touchdowns and no interceptions and I said Baker will be okay fifteen or twenty five to fifteen one touchdown one interception if Nick Chub goes for one hundred and fifty I lose but I do not think you'll go for one big go for two hundred between the two of. Okay. I like my chances. I love my chances I got Dallas thirty five to twenty one. We have two cases. You six point yes should done I will come. Over here. Really happy. A. Laker parade on Monday models you'll be. Bad. Be The real. That's. Today. Thank you so much for hanging. Now have a great weekend. We'll be back Monday at nine thirty eastern. undisputed.

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CS Movie Night #3: A Soldier's Story

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2:31:38 hr | 6 months ago

CS Movie Night #3: A Soldier's Story

"Hey Hey. Hey. What's up Champagne Sharks movie night we had a good one tonight a soldier's story. I want to know who pick that one because I forgot how good it is and I wouldn't have picked it even though like it just because. It hasn't been in the forefront of my mind for a while, but we're watching it tonight I. I was opposed to kind of pop in and out. And that really be watching it and stuff, and then I ended up sitting through the whole thing anyway it. Totally. Backfired I got totally sucked in. This is I. Sound Info I chose the movie and had. A similar experience with this movie even just today setting it up. I meant to just set it up to test to see if it was working and I ended up watching almost the whole thing I mean, I've seen the movie maybe ten times. Yeah. I've seen in a bunch to and I still pickup stuff I can't believe it. Yeah. Me Too. That's what art should be like like people always say I'm too tough and I'm a contrary and I hate everything if you want an example of me unequivocally laughing a movie this is it. This is you know put this on on record people claiming I never like anything this is like When I'm hard on a lot of things is because i. wish there were more things like this. This is the of layers on it and I think it transforms with as on where you are in life or your relationship to If you're black your relationship to your race or whatever it's. I mean I'm I'm on the you guys talk I WanNa. Hear you guys of the thing. And the people can announce the names as they speak for the first time. So, how sorry go ahead? No I was GONNA to Sam Winfield. This is the first time I've seen this and actually thought it was really interesting. That's all I'm going to say for now go ahead on Info. Again. This is I. Sound Info. As I said, I've seen it many times and. T really hit the nail on the head it. I see different things and focus on different aspects every time I watch it. And it really sort of. It resonates. Specifically with the black experience but more broadly with the American experience of. Black Peoples Place in America as being central to the American story and it's. There's so many different elements of it that. Are Powerful but also very settle at the same time. So yeah, I mean overall I enjoyed it once again. How about how I ask the people by name you know because the People Those separate other's toes I'll go and rabbinical order a adidas elitist. What were your thoughts if rainy on watching it? Is and how many times you've seen before but your first time or your. I saw the the movie. In High School one of my history teacher showed it. In High School and you know the first time you know as a teenager really saying it you know I really didn't understand a lot. But you know watching getting college and then several times throughout my adult life. On, it's always resonated different with me especially now. When we're seeing. A lot more I guess fragmentation. More nuance analysis of black black people in this country from the people, we call votes APPs to strivers to just regular working class black people always. been a great movie and a great play to me. And I get something different each time I watch it. I felt kind of indicted a little bit watching it this time Lake when I saw, I didn't really think about you know something that said that jumped out to me was when he said. Why when I first saw movie I I, saw it as a kid I remember just having a very black and white look at it and you know thinking Cj was good. Waters was just a bad guy and Peterson was somewhere in the middle just stop waters is a casella. But eastern I've watched especially the last time up I've. Excuse me seen as recently as a few months ago. And I was surprised how much more sympathetic I felt toward waters and also, and this is something I think is very loss of art today and I don't want to sound like. A broken record. I'm GonNa using these examples because they're the latest things that I've seen and talked about center fresh in my experience but they're also like very acclaimed, but if you look at Of the recent plays that you see like slave play or if you look at different movies, antebellum is one that I saw I saw Some of the best movies I've seen recently I mean the shows like lovecraft country and different things where they're all kind of. Everyone is a type. You know this is the boozy brother. This is the snobby girl. This is the OH. The white people is a great example. Dear White people. This is the whole tap. This is the guy and this is the blurred. This is the Alpha Guy. Nothing was really that cut and dried in this like Is Waters. A sell-out is waters just a misguided pro black izzy. Is he so toxically pro black the he accidentally does like A. One Eighty and ends up having a horseshoe effect and becoming like Kun like. It's it's become harder and harder for me to To kind of Parse, it I don't know. That dot the Kuba what are your thoughts? I trying to hold back because the film is. What one hundred minutes long? It's pretty short. I was surprised I. Sorta. Yeah, yeah. It's one hundred minutes long. I missed the first forty minutes. Oh you missed the first forty minutes. Oh, initially, I am seeing it. Yeah and this is my first time saying it so that I didn't want to jump in 'cause like there's there's I feel like there's so like I came in at the scene were waters like berating the the team of. Negro baseball players, I was like what the Fuck is wrong with this guy. And like atmos- forty minutes I shouldn't say you miss less than you think because I think in the forty first forty minutes I don't think they explain I mean he's doing more of that if I remember correctly in the I. I mean, I started to look like the actor. Adolph Caesar or says A. He was Dominican he was born in Harlem to I guess Dominican emigrants. when you say I can totally see he looks sorta. Yeah. Like is this Guy Cuban or something Dominican yeah. He He he has looked to but I found his voice is very demanding construe. Nata you say it clicks voices very I. Guys that are type of Raspy. Voice. You know what's interesting about? Adolph. Caesar is Just I thought this very interesting found this out. My father told me this years ago. It'll Caesar used to voice overs for the blaxploitation. Previews. Oh interesting. Are you actually hear it in some like if you there's a if you watch the previews for film called Buck Town I think that was released in like not no I love I love bug town. But does the secrets of Black Caesar right or is the other way around? I. I forget man there's so many black swimming movies made get mixed up on the orders but yet they are they are connected in a way. one thing I'll say. Also is that the cast for this was fantastic David Allen career. Denzel Washington I think that was his first film Adolph Caesar. Just great. Yeah I. I'm I'm very sure it wasn't Denzel's first film I. Think it was one of his first films hit a really weird movie where he was the adopted son of awake or are the legitimate son of a white guy it's very weird movie. Hold on. Masirah could fine actually it doesn't matter. Yes and keep talking but. I'm just curious myself now. Yet carbon carbon copy where he plays. The illegitimate African American son of a white business executive So the white business executive finds out that he has a black Sunday. He never knew about discovers him as an adult. It is so weird comedy in one, thousand, nine, hundred nineteen eighty-one. Pretty forgettable was very eighties. The name of that movie seems like just kind of like a like a joke. Yes very different strokes ish various it's it's It's not memorable all like I don't blame you for that. Not, knowing you weren't missing much. Esa Tarik have you seen the movie before because I? Know you miss most of it so I don't. Tonight. I didn't tonight I'll definitely check it out I'm happy to just hang out listen the chat hung out Craig. I sounds today and said it was a good film. He'd seen it seven times perhaps that's a pretty ringing endorsement I'm looking boy senior. Answer terrace it wasn't esoteric vote. I took to logging setting in the invite I was doing stuff and I forgot so he couldn't. Join in even if you wanted to. Spend. The rest of the day just posting negative reviews anywhere. I could find that champion charts. I'll I'll publicity's publicity. So yeah, just. Thought. I'm happy. Cool. Cool. Gave how about yourself did you see this movie before? No, this is my first time seeing it. and. You infinite beginning, right? Yeah. I saw I saw the holy. Okay, cool. And it was a little choppy I. Think I'm GonNa go watch it again. Okay. But I mean, it was just it was. Like. On the kind of like really service level just a very enjoyable film. Like I really. I love when there are like huge amounts of extras. Like, doing stuff in the backgrounds of movies I hate in modern movies how it's all like CG backgrounds Oh. Yeah. Like they actually had to have like a whole army base like going on kind of like in like a lot of the scenes and I really enjoyed that. But I mean like kind of like the. The. The like I duNNo. Like. Deeper level that I thought, it was kind of interesting the ending. It was like my kind of I think it was like kind of liberal or whatever. His like kind of like centers thing. But I kind of what I really liked about a really early I, don't know it was really early. But what kind of change my opinion a little bit about reparations when I was listening to champagne sharks was I. Think he was T was talking about like. A lot of kind of like like whatever like blue chick a blue check liberals. Being against operations because they can't imagine Lake Hood guys like. Being on the same levels them like higher. Or like even possibly like ruling. Over them you're. Really kind of like. Like it's kind of like central to the whole like. Like these. that. There's this really old copy pasta that was posted Oliver Fortune and the horror that they imagine was that commissar. Jamal was gonNA, come to your house and and decide that it was too big and that's what communism really was about. I always thought it was funny back in the day but I also think about that that's really kind of like a central. Like deciding who is like who kind of gets to be on top is also like really important like I don't know have you guys ever seen under champagne sharks blueberry page a we're pace wherever you send anybody to it really but it exists it's a is where we actually host the show. We show on the site called Blueberry. And if you go to champagne sharks dot, blueberry beal U. B., r. y., dot net. You can. See the the free feed hosted and played the episodes there. But we never sent anybody there because there's no real need to. We just send them to the to the Patriots on but because. I had to. Upload. This comic Strip that we talked about once. I WANT TO UPLOAD COMIC Strip and put it into show notes one time. So I uploaded it to. That site right and. The Comic Strip is Robert. Crumb you guys know Robert chromos. jus-. Yeah, he has. But yet if you go champagne sharks you're actually good friends of my grandparents was really. Yeah. That makes a group. What is it called Zap Comics? Yeah. Friends with all those people who Spain and and our crime and. I got to tour. They're they're they're set setup last time I visited San Francisco actually. Crap I'm wrong for some reason. Conversation I'd like to about that. Yes. Sounds really cool. Damn. You know what? I'm going to pull up the the Comedy show you, but it's not under site anymore. So I said all that for nothing. Sorry. But okay, it's called this call. Is when the black people take over. and. It might be called the N. words takeover to be honest Oh Yeah. It's. It's when the When the words takeover and a lot of people don't like it because he uses the N. word in it and stuff and they're saying it's not politically correct anymore and stuff but. The kind of the kind of Mr Point in that. The point of is he's talking from the perspective of He's talking from the perspective of a of a racist. And both interesting about this video but this comic strip is that it's so good. At capturing mindset that a lot of racist like the comic Strip and ironically. And is this the whole comic strip is just basically about what would happen if the black people took over and I think it's exactly what you said about Jamal and. And You know the fear of Commissar Jamal Lake I. Think it's a Commissar Jamal and commissar cletus was it. They're terrified of. From? Four Chan. Is that where you got that problem from four Chan Because I I've seen that too. Old mean that's probably like maybe eleven or twelve years old. I thought. I saw within the last few years. I hate for Chan I don't go on there. like I I. I was never interested. Enough in fortune. I Dunno, it's. Most things. About it on I heard about it on Fox News and I was like what is that? I was probably like maybe twelve or thirteen. It's not really so different from the way mini. Cubans. Talk about what happened after the revolution there the fact that you had so many black people that were in positions of power in positions of authority and we're actually integrated. Much more in a way than they were before into society that was really part of what the horror of the revolution means to a lot of the Cubans fled. Okay I found. I found. A version of the think has all the pages but I want you guys to Look at it to put the link side inside the chat room. If anybody's listening to this, no now can just google when the N. words take over America by Robert CRUMB. I found a version on street carnage that has I think most of the pages if not all of them but. It's really. That Jamal and cletus thing reminds me of that I. Guess memed got shared about the confederate and like the Panther. Got Shared last night it was like an image. Oh. It was a confederate guy holding hands like a black man. I got your back brother that that that famous one. Yeah. So if you look in the in the they watch room you can. See it Won The links I found for to apparently shared. Unfortunately a lot of fortune people. Love the Comic. To probably for the wrong reasons, they take it. Literally, round up and you guys are looking at the cartoon the cartoon now. Really Struck on something if you if you look at it, you'll see All, the craziness they imagined in GonNa be taking all the white women they're going to be reinstating slavery but but make the white people pick everything And so forth I. Think. A lot of that is also projecting sort of thing if you. Being. Considering. How little thought experiment we're everyone is neutral and imagine one group has been. Impacted, in the way that black people have within a society. What you would think is if you were able to overcome that and actually position of power that you would do actually a lot of those things has exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly like even though they tell black people turn the cheek and like your superior morality is what makes you don't be as bad as the oppressor that's the famous thing they were tell you they. They know themselves if they were in your shoes, but they would do so they magin. that. Of course, you would do that. You know that's kind of what we're. The white genocide stuff is so funny because it's like if you think racism isn't real or you know all this stuff is in real, why are you so afraid of becoming a minority you know she just fine Yeah. So on I was also reading some of the additional themes that she sent. Not to jump forward too much but. One of the the additional themes as the way in which racism affects both of the person that's being oppressed and the oppressor, and you know this sort particularly, you know during slavery and Jim Crow and up until really relatively recently. That whole dynamic of. You know or the fear of this what will happen? If indeed black people were to be in power or to have some, you know agency in society where they could actually you know. Have White People Be Beneath Them instigates fear that. Makes People crack down even harder to twist down even harder because it's like It's a sort of. A perpetual motion machine of hate the more that you think that black people might get. Some sort of freedom. The more you have to tighten down and and crackdown and. To you know. Out of the fear that it will happen it's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy IT MAKES The closer they get to freedom. yeah. I. Totally I totally agree but yet I mean that Comic Strip in the Commissar Mall thing I think are just two really good illustrations of Bob Wa well, for people who don't know like the lingo. Let me say Bob what we talk about the idea that of blacks in the bottom and Watson top as being natural order of things you know. And who the last person we spoke to spoke to Gav. Right. Yeah Yeah Thought Info. We've heard about your relationship to the movie. So sure sure locking load do you WanNa give people your relationship to the movie? Is the first time you saw and if it's your initial thoughts or not Yes. This is. My time watching it. All the SECO- whatever an offset a a really liked watching production was great at a Herbie Hancock did a great job with a soundtrack like it was. Just listen to it, and I just found a surgery waters character to be really interesting and this kind of been mulling that over in my head about like what they're trying to actually say with that character in his portrayal. Because what if I was interesting was I did. The way I read it he kind of came across as a caricature at least at the star he was just so over the top and a lot of the ways. The movie really did. Nuys Malaya's the one and especially towards the added will in a start talking about the scene at a cafe Napoleon and just per showing the various like an underlying dignity to what he's trying to do. And I don't have. A lot of did you guys get the impression I wouldn't if I'm? I miss here at I'm not sure the did he say he killed that guy? Are you. Who who, who, who is dead yet their soldiers, the black soldiers or All right. Yeah. That's what I thought was said but for some reason this time I couldn't hear I, wasn't. Sure There's a guy looks just as Jordan Peele in. We talk about the extras extra just like I put a tweet in the. In the day watcher room. To. Show a screen capture. That Guy Looks Weird. Jordan Peele. Let's see. WHO's. WHO's. Next. Winfield say didn't WanNa talk too much about it at the time. Are you still Holding back your DOS or do you WanNa say something now? The only thing that I really can say that. There was this like talk a while ago about the black nationalism of Clarence Thomas and how people should judge like a less you know. Slanted way your it seems Kinda. Because he has these positive motivations but. I feel like what is that kind of person? He might have had good intentions but you could tell he adopted a lot of the kind of race science eugenic type philosophy in the way he was treating year. Yeah I feel that gave him nuance it just didn't make. Good Evil so You know so so. So like polar. What he was doing and I thought that was interesting the first time I've seen it. So for me to have lots of deep opinions, I have to really like sit and think about it more mixon's. But I'd say it was a good film again there's a lot to chew on with that is it seems like we need more films like that. You know. Y- and and it made me realize washing tonight. I really should pullback on hate watching I was thinking because. I hate washing sometimes because I feel like it's the propaganda arm west going on and I think it's Very kind of damaging the messaging like for kids. Especially, I think for Gen Z. Younger Propagandize with this. Horrible new new black blue check stuff but at the same time. it's good to be reminded of a positive vision of what you want things to return to. You want things replaced with and this was. Like for example, was directed by white guy you know and. A lot of times today. That would be a big unknown on people who get upset with you know but it's It's great. I mean I mean it doesn't. He doesn't have any problems channeling the humanity of the I mean is written by Black Guy which definitely. Helps, but but we have production city that are directed written star produced. Everything black people and. Their their shockingly tone deaf, you know I didn't know until recently until two may told me that one of my favorite movies? Was done by White Guy letting but a man. And I remember being shocked as it kind of. It kind of challenge preconceptions about. Whether White creators can never property channel on. Black humanity we need told me that. I was really really taking taken aback by that, and this is another example of a of a movie that Kind of. Makes you realize the flaw in always thinking about reputation matters more than more than anything not that it doesn't matter it does but it also can be over stated the importance of. Right especially when it's As is the case. Now, what appears to be the case? It's being used as a Cudgel for people to get put on and put their friends on more than anything else. Yeah and and the classes aspects of it like you know everyone of the black, you are being put on come from a particular class or particular Whatever like nothing. But a man that that's a good one. Eventually do the chat I think you know if you WanNa talk about like. positive movies instead of like things that you hate that's a good one too and that's written directed by two two white men. One of whom are think is born in Germany. And and and every black man that I shoots he says it's one of the best humanizing depictions. Of Black. Men like to the point I always my whole life was was done by by a black. Man. Yes I opened up the floor for what whatever anybody wants to talk about right now. Let me see. A. Never. mind. I like the idea of. Yet hate watching and maybe a little less that like did hate watch always exist like where people hate watching things twenty five or thirty years ago getting a vhs cassette being like, oh, man, it's A. It's a hate watch without having that terminology or is that more of a? A newer thing when I think I, sat this Hap- station where he said I don't my son watching some. Programs because a lot of kids programs now really snarky they're like, oh, mom I'm not going to do that. That's a lane and that's kind of the whole tone of a lot of kids shows but that certainly wouldn't have been the tone twenty five or thirty years ago so. Are these on newer things or people hate watching things you know twenty five years ago but they didn't have a term for it. They just kind of did it in their own heads like it would have been a Aba, guilty pleasure something in that kind of realm it used to happen in terms of I know when the original Amos and Andy was on the air. Amazon Amos and Andy was a show. That took the old radio show and recast it with black actors because. Of moved far things got to move far enough that people started realizing. Okay. We can't really do that anymore you know we have to So it was kind of the Hamilton of his day to setting white and try to clean it up by saying, Hey, now we have at black actors makes a better and one of the people will tell you is that the N. double ACP down and you get this kind of revisionist history that all black people hate the show but in reality if you look at the Discussion at the time and I found this article that. Did a lot of primary research found what people really thought about it. At the time black people were divided. A lot of people were talking about we talk about Hamilton I. It's well done. It gives people jobs, you know You Walk Black people are messing up for everybody y you complaining or you know image. Is Not so bad and what's interesting about the show have you ever watched the show? I've never it. What wait what era was this. Is. Old Radio show that has. All. Sorry. I do know the old original Amos. The TV show I was in the fifties or sixties was black and white Sitcom and I'm going to be honest I watched it. It's not bad. It's funny. It's it's The tone it down having the black actors does take off some of the edge. To Edge I won't lie if you're listening to old radio when it sound so menstrual. But. I mean at the end of the day thus still. confirmed a lot of. Bad stereotypes but not that much worse than in a lot of ninety s black comes to be to be honest you know but is this the principle of thing but I found this article in the La Times reporting on his death. In he died in. Eighty six, two years after the movie came out. This is L. Caesar Right Yeah Adolph Caesar and it's got this a part in the La Times article. it's a quote. A painful experience of my own led me to waters Caesar said in an interview published in The Times last year I went looking for that article too but you know I I don't have a a times account and I can't set one up that quickly. It continues. I'd studied shake spirited death I knew more about Shakespeare Than Shakespeare knew about himself after I did one season at a Shakespearean. Repertory Company director said to me quote you have a marvelous voice you know the king's English well, you speak Arabic pentameter. My suggestion is that you go to New York and good and get a good colored role in quote. Unquote hate you waters has tried his best but no matter what you do. They still hate you and quote. So that's what Cesar said about his own life in relation to waters. Yeah there was a great quote. Towards the end of the movie during that that same scene when he says There's only one way to win. And you can't win. And that the rules are fixed. So this one of the things that's clear that such waters as embraces idea of America Chrissy tocks the one of the things about his son's going to go to white college and you know he's going to make something of himself and. Then, we'll keys say, well, Hey, we haven't had the same opportunities. Wipe was have he comes down Wilkie like a ton of bricks and. Is Sort of classic bootstraps like no, this America crecy all we have to do is prove that we're just as good if not better and will reap the benefits of it. Additionally I think. One of the teams that's connected with that is his disdain for southern culture in southern blacks because he sees that as a reminder that blacks were slaves and. His whole. Mission is to recast black minutes as heroes as as as noble people you know and He's got that respectability angle. Yeah. David. said he likes the. He likes the Negroes from the north. He prefers them was the south because he keeps calling all the southerners gay cheese even though that's like a regional thing to like a few as states. The play the play set in Louisiana I don't know if. The I think from the Arkansas certain Louisiana I think. Yeah I. I think the movie might be Sun. Louisiana too. But yeah, it's just Kinda like. you know he he's in solving the in his mind. He's insulting them by calling them. Geeky. Yeah. Yeah. But he's ashamed to be who he is. On, just finish the reason why I was bringing up to Amos and Andy thing because it relates this you're talking about Hey I interrupted Iceland Info and I wanted to. Go. Back and let them finish. Now. I essentially just want to make that point about it wasn't necessarily his disdain for. Low class or working class by people who more disdain for those same characteristics but among southern blacks and approximity to slavery, and that sort of classical racism is what he had a disdain for and CJ, representative a walking talking example of that and no matter what our waters did. He felt that by CJ even existing. was A up a scar or stain on the race in that? You know there could be only one you know. Yeah. Let me think about two was when I still have pulled kind of indicted by this movie At times was I was like you know it's to kind of look at these things and say oh this is. How it represents this kind of person discount black person but it's not easy look at these things and say, how did the bad things happening in here? Reflect me as a bad person I, think about the times when I used to be one of those people that would make fun of southern rap or complaining about mumble wrapping it was an embarrassment. compared to like lyrical rap and everything. Hate mumble wrap this mumble wrap that and I was like that's like a modern day version of you know I hate this GTC CJ with his Guitar Music and the Blues and all that stuff like I. Feel like a lot of the same dynamics kind of going to play. But when you get distance from it when you see it sixty seventy years. After the fact, it's easy to judge it with distance. So easy to look at what waters is doing, and because you have the benefit of hindsight, you're able to just feel like you're in the right side of history but. you may be doing a version of that. Today you know with little things changed here and there and you don't even. Realize it. You know that's kind of what I'll try and say with Amos and Andy. Thing everyone now thinks every black person hated it and esoteric was talking about hate watching happened back then and they used to debate that show every single. Week different. Black people it would. It was like A. Water Cooler, topic of the day and stuff but. Now, people all claim that they hated the show and you know everyone agrees it was black. It's it's very easy in hindsight to see the reason about Emerson anything's very easy in hindsight to judge things because you have a new language and the new. Agreed upon way of looking upon history but you have no idea whose side you would have been on. back. Then if you're sitting next to sergeant waters going through a black people were going to at the time and looking at CJ on stage and you also have no idea. What modern versions of the stuff you judging now that you're able to judge. Maybe more objectively because you have distance from it, you have no idea what modern versions of that you actually perpetuating but you to immerse. To, properly judge yourself fifty years from now people might be looking at you. And you're buying season being like, wow he was a real piece of work when it came to black people. A good point. You bring up a lot of. Good Point Perspective and in a lot of ways we talk about presences of that in our own way. Engage in our own former presences them. The world will one monologue really always that with me because. Like. I sorted waters like you know what I mean as a character. But then again, like learning about. You know. Especially in the black experience with. Military stuff you know think about it. You know your your own World War One. Most likely in the three sixty ninth regiment. A regiment who pretty much got thrown under the command of the French because. It wasn't you know in America at that time didn't want to have. A black regiment. Indigo go and get highly decorated. Come on. And? You know it's red. Summer. You know. From my perspective hours looked at the scene is like. You know and taking into account what I've learned. So why the hell would you even come and sign up? Now, join the army again and then tell the younger black men. How to be respectable in the system that pretty much. Basically. Just just underminded you. But then again, you know I didn't live back then. Southern waters is a very just. He's polarizing figure to me, but it's just like I. SO conflicted every time I watched this movie because I'm like. You have a BRA understand where you're coming from but. Damn. I just don't like how you move. Yeah yeah makes. Sense. I think that you know he truly believes that there is some. Formula of service and respectability that will ultimately breakthrough in prove once and for all the black people deserve their rightful place in American Society I. Think that's why he feels comfortable recommending these. These soldiers to fight their hardest and to you know. Be Patriotic as he believes that at some point, it will be inevitable. White people will see that we belong. As equal parts of the society. And Heathen says that and in one scene when they're sitting around the table again, the the same he's talking about his son, it's like Whoa Corwin didn't change anything for the Negro this war. Things are going to change it. I want my son to be prepared for he's convinced that there's enough sort of. Goodwill of crude by respectable black people such as himselves that eventually, and finally is getting to a point where it would break is going to break through. You know. Black people who are know. A. Certain. Certain type of behavior. Certain types of black culture will finally take their rightful place. Yeah. For sure. One of the other things that stuck out to me is the sort of. Friction lists white supremacy that. Really permeates almost every scene that he has with the white person how The. The sort of way, which is just organic like the woman who comes in check tell she was the wife of the the officer not when he's talking and trying to get him and he's he's at the House and trying to get him to give her give permission to interview the the other two officers she says to a house. Can I get someone to bring you something when she brings? The the I'm forgetting what rank was brings the officer there. Hit. Something to drink. She wouldn't be the person to directly bring him some pink someone else. You, know a black servant will bring him something. Also, loved in that scene, how it shows standing right behind her is that black gardener it's kind of like a subtle thing knows even it's even better the net that was a soldier that was being forced to garden. or good cash never caught them. And they that sort of a piece that throughout as well you see. It's what? Nineteen, forty, two, forty, three, the wars you know already in full swing and you know the the backdrop of all this is that. The Negro troops are waiting to get into the fight and they're excited to get into the fight. But in the meantime they're you know they sit next year, they're going to have us for nine the war next you're gonNA help us you know harvest next year cotton crop, and they show all these soldiers die with breaks and hose on this truck. I'm wondering if anyone on the chat is actually from the south. It's complicated. Many people would with in dispute whether or not Texas's the south. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. People kind of think of it as. North and south. Yo from the deep South and sergeant. Waters. That character. Really resonated Migas I grew up around in like that and particularly my mother's ex husband. He's the sort of blackmailing Chris. Rock. Did a sketch about this world a bit about this. One of the standup eases sort of person who? Is. Totally, balance scraping and he was he's since passed away but he was he was older than my mother. Bow and scrape and smile and white people's faces but absolutely hated white people hated them so much. So if they would've known, it would be shocking and he got me a job working with a grounds keeper working as his sort of assistant at this you know. This big. Auto auction, but it had a huge ground that needed to be cut in maintained and he was totally I mean so much for saying yes. Boss to his to the guy who owned the the business was just you know the most subservient black man you would think you would have thought it was the nineteen forties and then as soon as that person left as soon as his boss left. The white person left he would curse into a really. They remind me of the Chris, rock joke You ever hear that Chris Rock Crack Ass crack a joke. That's what that's referring to. Okay. Oh Oh I thought I thought. Oh, I miss when you mentioned the Chris Rock. Star. But that is that is a real thing and he's not the only person in my life growing up that I saw like that and sergeant waters was very similar in that way that whole scene when. He was talking after the baseball game and. Insulting everybody but as soon as the white commander came in. I. Guess. What would you wants to really sort of subserve he went from Dominating. Degrading the black troops to bowing and scraping, and yes bossing to white commander when he came in in a heartbeat and so so seemless. But I think a common theme that it was trying to show was that a lot of times what you hate the most in others is. Really what you hate and can accept about yourself. So I so he was so. and and his colleague was saying when I was looking at this thing, I felt a little more indicted this time because I was trying to think like. Instead of just saying what I hate about other people that captain waters like what is it the I do that might be a modern version or more refined version of Of the same thing and I felt like that's what was happening with Captain Water Himself Lake. Is Easy to look it. 'CAUSE CJ wasn't actually doing. As far as I can remember that much scraping and stuff like that. He just kind of felt like his gayness implied. Scraping and all that stuff but. Such waters them so that a lot of scraping And that's why the he had to projected onto cj in an imagine I mean if I'm wrong told me but the member CJ doing any actual scrapie it. Just kind of. Naive like we need still in the long story to the White Superior Officer. But he doesn't to me and I remember him doing that much over. He's really earnest to me. No I agree. Agree. But I also think that that same like nineteen earnestness that CJ had especially when you're in a business of going abroad killing people probably infuriated waters as well because. Even though he seems like a nice person when he when he found the gun, he's like I'm scared of them and all that stuff military people shouldn't really be expressing those kind of thoughts and emotions. Especially, if you're in a position where you go enough to war, you could be he reminded me in that sense that kind of take the same kind that Gomer pyle had in full metal jacket. Those aren't the people you want out there. When you're you know you're all meant to be protecting each other's lives you know what I mean. And I think doubly so him being black and being naive. Religious burn sorts waters up and you know there was that great scene when such wars came to talk to him when he was in in the prison cell and he was telling, Oh we know, I, didn't do this and he starts to tell now he's sort of been serially getting southern blacks arrested and and put away and take essentially taking them off the board. As a way to sort of. When to to get rid of the dead weight in a great long as a CJ the black race can't afford you know more. You know we have to move forward and some some people have to be collateral damage in this and you're one of them. and another part Like at the end with the confession you know he he he tells on WHERE THE CHARACTER'S NAMES One is played by Denzel in any other one is But the the to the two are they're? Doing patrol and Denzel murders, waters, and then you know. He says he says the reason he didn't come forward was he was scared of Denzil character whatever. Man But like to me that was like like really. Like that like really weak moment 'cause you think that like he would hate waters to. Be Down to be. Accomplished. Yeah. Waters was. I think in some ways. And this is. Me Sort of reading into the character and I think some of the characters admired waters particularly Wilkie for what he'd done what he'd been through. And waters. He is complicated in the sense that like. He absolutely hated cj but he also had an affinity for CJ on the beginning. He's watching him play goes up and talks to him. You ever heard of son House, Mississippi and you know he likes to watch C., J. Play Ball. So there's a sort of. Give and take here. You know he he has an affinity for black culture he's pro black. But he also thinks that they are. There's a certain pathway forward that at necessitates certain decisions and you know there's not rooms people like C. J. so And then he's really torn up about CJ killing himself why he starts to drinking you know he's really haunted by CJ. So. The ease he's not wholly heartless. He just. Use, the world, a certain way and his solutions in his analysis of what what he needs to do a wrong. Yeah agree with that the end he was really haunted by. The death is C. J.. It was coming back together. He actually did like cj, but he just felt like cj was not fit for the military, but they have processes to remove people like that. So I don't know why he had to take my question is why did he take it upon himself to go that road in terms to get rid of CJ when they have a lot more tools as their disposal? As far as as far as what what tools do you think he should've used. They have if they they probably have things like disciplinary. They could put up on or you know they could be testing him. You know the evaluative tools, my uncle was in the army and if you don't pass them. Out, but did you want to get him out? Because, I feel like smalls was saying his plan, I can fully remember but I remember his plan had something to do with not expecting him to hit him and him hitting him made him changes his plan but he originally wanted to do something else you guys remember what it was i. Forget myself, but he just wanted him to be in jail for a few days to teach them a lesson to release a sort of like as part of his. long-term plan to make his life hill while he was under his command. In. Like a bunch of other people to like leaky was like naming like I did this to two guys in in this other town I did this the two guys in in the last place? Like I felt like you wanted like. It was weird because it felt like he was saying like you know you shouldn't be here but you shouldn't exist right like 'cause you're kind of tarnishing me. In a way like living right? That's right. That's right. Yeah. So it's like why I don't I don't get. Like, did he think that it was like he had to put cj in like in the right place, which was like the Krizan Lay into that like whatever like because it felt like he was saying you shouldn't you're actually like shouldn't exist like something. They shouldn't be in the military he shouldn't be in the military also trying to ruin his career I think he wants him like off the board I think he's trying to get him out of the military or at least damages career so much that he wouldn't be put in a situation where he's with other black people because he's the type of person that could. Cost people to lose, their lives. I don't think he was being that practical I think you're giving him way too much credit as far as I think I personally think it was it was an image thing and it was a working out his own psychology I feel like. CJ was his shadow in the in the Carl young sense like the part of him self that he can't own that he can't Process allow to exist or what he fears he is you know and I think he had to destroy Cj as a weight of killing that part of himself I, think he projected his worst. Fears of who he is or his worst aspects of himself. He disowned certain aspects of himself and he added project it. According to shadow psychology into CJ and by destroying cj he was kind of. Destroying that part of himself, it was IT'S A it's a immature way of processing your. Your psychology in your problems like when the role of a scapegoat escape goal what a scapegoat literally is they call people scapegoats, but the real. scapegoat in the where it came from is it was a goat upon whose head was symbolically placed the sins of the people they put all the sins of the people in the head of the goat then they sent the goat into The wilderness or sometimes like killed the go and now supposed to be the way of purging the The sins of the. Of the village and they caught people scapegoats because that's what the role of human scapegoats is like the stuff usually you can't. process or own you. You put the blame on the scapegoat and then you beat or berate or mistreat the scapegoat. That's what I think it was for him I don't think he really cared about anything practical as well as happening to the other soldiers, and if he was gonna be a good good soldier or not that's why I think he was able to respect Denzel Washington after he stood up to him because he kind of saw the good aspects of himself in Denzel you know Danza was behaving the way he wanted to believe he was. And and small. So he was gonNA put Denzel up for promotion. I noticed that irony too like like the way he treated the too like they both him but he he respected Denzel else character. And what is it? It's and the irony is that Dinsdale's character hated him for what he did to CJ. The the irony was he was to Denzel character what CJ was to him Denzel saw him as a sell-out, an embarrassment to the race. Right. And another sort of. You know. I think Irritating point for sergeant waters is that people like cj? People like when he sung people thought he was funny he played baseball. You know the the white officers liked him. Because he was you know athletic teams winning always games. The black soldiers liked him because he was he could sing and he was funny and he saw that character as. Someone who had too much attention and was really seen as the sort of ex-employer of the race as opposed to someone like sergeant waters and I think that really drove him crazy as well. I think that kind of mirrors the way blue checks are which is that. They have this image of what they should be that Will Win over white people. They do it by following the suppose rules of what why people tell them. You have to speak a certain way. You have to go to the right schools yet to -CCOMPLISH all this stuff. and become. Yet, lower the coats, which if you're in those blue checks, talk a lot about code switching and even that thing that episode lovecraft country episode five, we listened to the podcast episode they kept talking about how was an analogy for code switching, and if you ever notice a lot of those blue checks work in art is very fixated on code switching and one reason. So fixated on it is that it doesn't really. Get them as far as they think they think they're doing everything that white people tell them arte reasons they don't respect black people the way you talk the way you walk you know. and tell them that you know. You shouldn't be the people from the hood. You shouldn't be like those people or whatever then after you do all this stuff. Those are the people that you turn around and see it those white people that trying to impress and. Get to accept them like the most in that actually pisses them off more and I, think that's where a lot of. The. Classism of blue checks or the hatred of straight black men you know kinda comes from it's like. We were we thought that these people were the embarrassment of the race where everything that was holding us back you kind of. told us to be all these different things. And we're doing that and you turn around and you like their swag you give them the most attention you do this and that and I think I think the straight black men and a lot of ways like the siege as to the. The blue. Check sergeant waters if that makes. Sense I thought this movie we're seeing a lot on the on unlike on a Meta level like that. You can extrapolate outside of the movie just about like life. Yeah. Everything in a way training is I think you're kind of saying that what what has had the Polish and the professional credentials, but he probably wanted some of the primal attraction that people had to see. J. And? Yeah the the way they liked him even though he claimed that it was like like you ever see when these blue choice complain about how straight black men were so popular in high school and but it was just They didn't realize -posedly that everyone was looking at them as just entertainment or walking dildos and stuff. But despite them saying that they also acted the jealous of it. So bad detention a street backman we're getting y you also talking about like jealous kind of a weird conflict that has those kind of people themselves a narcissist they wanted all they want all of the attention. Yeah. I wouldn't get a chance to produce they produce art like. Five or slave play where you know they're basically. Walking sex toys or they produce. I'm sorry episode. lovecraft. Country Sorry. Member episode lovecraft crap combined two things that sort lovecraft country was not really flattering like this is your fantasy to be this to a white person you know for all your talk about. How black people for black men are fine being sexualize like when you get a chance to paint your own fantasy, you paint the same fantasy that you've criticized Blackman for supposedly having or or slave labor example people say black men are fine being used as sex toys by white women and all this stuff but then. The big thing that you do when you have a chance to get on Broadway's. Putting yourself in the same position, I feel like water is head that conflict where he? Hated J. for supposedly scraping and all that stuff. But he was jealous of how he was able to be loved for all those things that are supposedly so bad. About being black. Parts of himself. You probably have been feel in contact with anymore because he listens he listen Su symphony music he is polished he's trying to Act White and he's never going to be white. But now he's probably divorced from his black site as well and I was seeing someone getting low. So it's like a double bind he didn't get loved for. Making himself wider but. He's to divorced from his black side to ever go back to that and. Use the Anglo trying to get loved for that, and that's when somebody says cj says you know he's got to be in a lot of pain a man who doesn't know where he fits in. Yes that's a good point. There was a frank will they said that? He can't he can't love himself for being he can't love himself as black and he can't and he hates himself. For being near White or whatever I forget exactly what? What he said it might have been imagined have been. The opposite. He can't. He hates himself for being black, but he can't love himself for being near White or is that I'm not sure which one of those. I thought it was integral that you know the head you know he couldn't love himself. He hit like it. He goes in Tehran where he says all the things he hates about. Cj and I thought that was really you know. That was a great sand. Yeah. Because he like he lays out kind of like in a way that you know like I'm trying to think like like there's a lot of like whole books written about this just like the whole like the things that like our imagined that like you know white people have the mind and by people have the body, right? You're like the whole like I felt like that was kind of like the whole you know his connection in music and you know like his connection to his body and. We want to move away from that I want to send my kid dislike fancy school so he can lose lacy Nike's Bee's like. You know. Whatever wha-what how how about? How about this Italian to that when we listen to that podcast last week one of the things that somebody commented on was how forced their attempt Ebonics was and I think that's the same. conflict this leg, we want to elevate pass this realize that that's what a lot of white people actually love about us and. Is that same kind of dilemma I it would be sergeant waters beside his answer to Lamar was to. Try to show that he competed blues too. So when the white. bosses came around or the white superior officers you know and they'll. Show well, he can play baseball to or sure he can pay the blues but He didn't feel a place where he can do that. I feel like people nowadays. Feel like they want to try to do both. They WANNA be Sergeant Waters Andy Wannabe CJ I think a lot of people in a worse place nowadays in. Sergeant waters was in this because they're feeling the pull to try to be both and be everything to. Everyone Sergeant Ward is at least picked his side. And decided, he was going to destroy the CJ or the world and. Even though. No I agree I think one of the things that would if this movie would be made today would play a much bigger role but something that was. Very. Sort of unspoken but implied was the fact that sergeant waters was light skin and when he showed the picture of his family, his son was like it was very quick thing as son and his wife light-skinned as well and the fact that. You know those dynamics were were real not particularly for people who were. ASCENDANT IS BLACK LIBOR ASCENDANT society but they didn't make that. A part of the story it was just sort of. Yeah it has. A sort of organic part of the landscape but I thought that was really really interesting as well. Look at Someone Jessica Craig Jessica Krog wasn't even Black. She like she was fully white and even she. Found some value in. Portraying a fake C. J. She was trying to act like she was from the hood had this fake cadence. We know tried to be like this SPANISH HOT MOMMY Types the surging waters like thing like a policing people's black. Yes. Yes. Like nick wh what did where to look at movies is try to see like what is this thing about the world outside of the movie? Not just like within the characters there's one of the reasons why I don't really like lot of the stuff that's Today's because. It just seems to be done for the actual creator of the thing to work out their own problems instead of trying to make a broader commentary in this thing I think. Taps into real. Long standing black struggles. Agreed. I I was just. Thinking of. Like what you just said about Jessica Krug and that That that. That thing like the native American saying there are two wolves within me. I'm going to us with I'm going out out there is going to seem like it's not on on point. But I want, to, be with. and see how it ties in ties into this but I'm trying to Amos and anything a little little clear about why brought it up because I think Is an example of how this conflict within the movie plays plays out because I think maybe wasn't as clear before but. I found an article, New York Times that Explains Explains. This review of a book about Amos and Andy and. It's a book that re. Challenges us to rethink. About. Demanded the impact of Amazon and Ebay and. And what it really was like at the time, not what we've revised it to be, but it says. Despite protests over the years? Many African Americans were also avid fans of the show. or this is what is. The principal targets? Rate despite protests over the years many African Americans were also avid fans of the show. Mr Eline was the author of this book site surveys and provide samplings of personal testaments and correspondence it black support as he shows black reaction to Amos and andy was most accurately characterized by disparity and vacillation, and that's why I brought it up when Asked about if hate watching was was ever a thing and I was trying to say it was. The Pittsburgh Courier, for example, began a campaign to remove the show from the air in nineteen thirty one that's the original our radio show, but Roy Wilkins then a journalist and editor, and if you guys know Roy Wilkins is he's like well known civil rights. Guy. WHA-. Racial Equality's Yep and also I think junior was Congress of racial equality I could be wrong. was there a junior I think the original Ray Wilkins. WAS AND LACEY PE- I could be wrong. Was the original Roy, Wilkins, and Congress of racial equality's will What but. Either way. Regardless, he had a lot of lot of Bona Fides in in activism stuff Roy Wilkins. Then a journalist and editor debunked the effort maintaining that quote Amos and Andy had all the pathos humor vanity glory problems and solutions that be set ordinary mortals and therein lies universal appeal by nineteen fifty one though when Andy was on television. And now had black people playing it Wilkins I changed his mind and the campaign by the end of Lacey Pe- to ban the program. So think about that when it was white people playing Amos and Andy on the radio and thirty one he. said all that stuff about the universal appeal of it when? Black people were acting out the face of Amos and Andy and is a visual component He did a campaign by the end WAC to ban the program somebody say maybe it's status twenty years later. Right but I think something about black people acting it out. And it being broadcast everywhere got under his skin and then Mr ally also touches on the crucial issue of black concern over whites reaction to the program. The Amos and Andy. He writes stirred debate about which aspects of black life and culture should Afro Americans display in public and quote. The automatic explored further and said refers to one of the most an enigmatic societal of phenomenon. Why did black determination to ban this show coalesce only after an American performers took over the parts on television. The cast after all represented the most talented group black comedy performers ever assembled for continuing program on radio or television and presented comedy that in private a majority of blacks actually found. Amusing. and. That I think right. There is a soldier story. Like it captures everything in a soldier story the idea that. People are matter when the black people are doing something than the are at. The white people created the MINSTREL show in whatever is viewed as almost. Flattering. That they found black people as a worthy vehicle. To explore all these things counter like sergeant waters goes easy. On. Dwight. Superior officers in a certain way that he doesn't on the black ones when black. People. Acted up Amos ninety themselves. Suddenly everybody's ashamed. Some people really like it. Some people think it's a good thing and makes back Gert and. I feel like this, this movie captures age old. Things but I, don't think we're over this I. Think this shows today that are going to be like that people are divided on and thirty years from now. Half, of US will be. All of us will be claiming they behavior or we loved it or. Yeah Yeah, I. Agree. And I think that You know one of the things that really stood out to me. Not to change the subject totally. But. Just it out to me about the the movie and and t I think you said this earlier. The the different types of characters, the black hair to like they had. You know the sort of suck up was Wilkie, and you had the The coward you know the guy who was with Denzel when he killed sergeant waters and you know the the ones soldier who played the Organ Kinda drunk can you know everyone had a little something different? There wasn't any one. Type of black person, but it also didn't. You know. In a sort of conspicuous way go out of its way to say look at how different all these black people was very sort of. You know. Flowing in integrated into the with the story worked and it was you know very realistic. I think Michael on our last discussion on on. What the Hell's the name of that gang show. lovecraft love. He talked about that. He mentioned that he said that you know. You don't have to explain everything like a story should be good enough. Yeah. Pretty much extremely light. Expose people to what's going on. So it allows people to make observations, and that's why I love this movie so much because CPB nuance with our having to tell you. That it's like noice, you just see. So exactly and today they would essentially tell you. either. Explicitly by what they do in the in the show or the movie or on a podcast house nuanced it was and how they worked so hard to make a complex and the show the people on a model. Etc.. and. They may not be monolith, but they're very one dimensional. Problem whereas everything here was a three-dimensional. Yeah. But Data Salinas you were gonNA say something no. No I think So like you know my little sister used to watch a deal white people alive and I think they did that to like where they broke the fourth wall right? If I'm saying that right now they said, right? They were like, yeah they were like, yeah this this is why you know you use. Wave Greece. Like scholars just. Crazy. What was it even a literal written in the fourth wall or was it so they? that. You felt like it was talking to the audience. If you understand what I'm trying to ask some shows do a literal breaking in the fourth wall with a person looks at the audience and it's the liberty supposed to be a breaking the fourth wall it in some shows have people say something and it's so unnatural. Also, it was literally breaking in the fourth wall wasn't something that. was meant to be real dialogue but was so clearly aimed at the audience that felt. The people understand what I'm trying to ask that question. No. Yeah. Totally understand. Yeah. That show in particular it seemed like when they would do that. When they explain things he was totally like A. Like say by the Bill Zack Morris would do his time out thing and then explained his little schemes stamps or whatever back was gone on. That show it just seemed. Very Dad back declared said, but were they doing it directly? Zack Morris was literally talking to the audience. It was a conceit of the show whereas some shows act like it's natural dialogue, but it's so clearly at the audience it. Feels like that even though it's not supposed to be like like in story what's IT supposed to be? Character. I felt like, yeah, I felt like they did that I felt like they did they would stop glad they would have like the record scratching in. You know. White Black barbershops like that? Oh, yeah I see what you me. So Weird 'cause I watched the show and I'm still asking you that's how little of an impression the show made on meaty. Remember much about that show. I feel like. There's a lot of CJ's. Out there and I feel like you now. People have different CJ's as easy Kinda judge Kind judge waters for how he treated his cj but you know Fifty cent might be when black person's Cj you know or Or two live crew or Sudden Mumble mumble rap I feel like a lot of black people in the east coast that was their cj it was gonna make them look bad. You know the story of the the Amos and Andy how a lot of people saw that show is especially when black people were the face of it as their CJ's and I think It's a challenge kind of I want you to kind of. Question like yourself. But. It's it's easy to just kind of look literally and. Just indict sergeant water and I was looking at this when I saw more indicted I kind of when I was watching this where. Like ironically, waters was the Peterson. Waterson was Peterson CJ. Peterson himself like the actual cj he saw and he saw. He saw. Waters as the downfall of the raise or the backwards part of the race, they had to leave behind the same way Water CJ's backwards part of the race he had to leave behind and then. Howard rollins character. Ask Him at that was a good question he said Who gave you the right to judge who was fit to be a negro or not, and he was kind of showing that the crime that you? Felt was worthy of death for waters was. The, same crime Hubris you're guilty of and two. Water Yourself. and. I think he waters for the same reason why does hated CJ? He saw a part of himself in. In waters. And I think I mean. To. My mind does the sort of direct analogy of the. You know what a CJ would be like in today's world would. Really. Is Really Black Athletes High School College Professional We seen a change at least superficially in the NBA, but I think the amount of attention that they get the sort of popularity that they have known as the place that they hold and American society. Unique, from other black people, I, think. Really, sort of. Seemed to be very now just to the the sort of CJ tapper character in the way in which you know. Many people who think you know when black people are defined almost exclusively by the successive entertainers and athletes. Really diminishes the race in keeps us from kicking are rifle places part of equal members of society. I think that's directly analogous to the sort of relationship between. Sorry waters and CJ yeah I agree. Very much, very much. So yeah. You can tell I like this movie because I I feel like I've talked a ton during episode. Slept on movie. I think. Like, said before like I was exposed to it at a point in my life where I just. You know what? Matic response to sergeant waters very like visceral like you know but. You have a different perspective every time I watched this movie and it it's. It's definitely a great film you know. have an example of another CJ. Adidas leadership. Probably remember this because I think you're on the same age range as I am. UPN and the WB TJ's of the day like I remember people that those are going to be the downfall you know of of the race you know even now people look in those things kind of fondly you know like all these people are like. For girlfriends and the Wayne's brothers in those shows and Martin, and they're like Oh, man, I, miss had this these black sitcoms that weren't for the white gays. But I remember at the time those were very splitting things. The same way Amos and Andy was pleading was They were the CJ's CJ's of of their as a lot of people thought that. Was the minstrel show the thought all the UPN shows were. These be an an acronym for UPN that I forgot what it Yeah. But there was something the end for Negroes family members, what it was, but it was a derogatory acronym. For UPN Kimber what it was. Yeah I definitely think that Dan was founded growth. Oh, underpaid Negroes I remember listening that people used to Say. I think in a lot of ways to like BLAXPLOITATION was a CJ a lot of good one. Yeah. Because you know what's funny about blaxploitation. Is it like a lot of blaxploitation actors and actresses like their classically trained? Actors you know. So that's why you know you seeing as like Willie, dynamite where the guys talking about you need to have vision doing like these guys are like classically trained. Very. Highly Very Hollywood shuffle. Yeah Yeah Yeah but but they're like there are a lot of people in my father's time who would dislike aided those movies. Because they just. For All intents and purposes like blaxploitation was kind of like I don't think it was like really. Some of it was good but you know a large part of it was. It was very popular. It was very popular though and I think it's another way that can see a lot of black people and white people Loved. It. In fact, I didn't know this. So recently, but blaxploitation pretty much saved Hollywood and kept it afloat until star wars came along like like now the proper, the popular revisionist. Histories like the easy riders raging Bulls version the history that these seventy s tours were Redeeming and saving. Hollywood, before the blocked age of the blockbuster. But in actuality that stuff was getting the New York Times rave reviews but that should make no money. I find this out later blaxploitation that saved and kept cinema. You know The same way UPN and WBZ's lassie W used black stuff to keep themselves afloat until they could MC profitable, white stuff than through all that stuff. Aside blaxploitation wasn't till the blockbuster eight age. It was what basically saved and kept hardy wood alive Until until The as of the blockbusters came in white movies became profitable again, and in that way I think. It was like a siege as well as in those black people who really dismayed at it and thought it put the most negative stereotypical. Aspects of the Negro out. There were also dismayed it how much popular was in the stuff that daylight or we're trying to do the? was elevated. I think bill cosby was was a waters as well in his in his day. And and Eddie Murphy was a CJ to him. Or Year that ski yeah. Delirious. Or dangerous delirious. Gory talking to Richard Pryor about. Cosby was treating him. Yeah. Yeah. You know awhile. Coconut the. Ironic. Things in the movie as well as. The The Davenport character, the the. The. Howard rollins character. That is exactly the type of Negro that sergeant waters would have wanted to have investigate his murder. He's sort of he's sort of got what he wanted, but wasn't old alive to see it to see the sort of a set of black people to the point where being saluted. You saw how big of a deal it was for the black troops to see Howard rollins character in the. Kept saying you know asking questions they were rooting for you and the shock on the face of the white characters when they saw the uniform and that's to me the sort of dream of sergeant waters and the fact that he never really got a chance to see that was really interesting. But. Then it happened without his intervention. Right. But his death had to be the thing that brought it to. To happen or at least brought Howard rollins there for your right. He he never nurtured anyone become that sort released not from what we told the story never nurtured anyone to ascend to that role. But in a strange way, he his actions as misguided as the were. Kind of Were catalyst. For that almost like like like accidentally you I'm not sure that's enough to give him credit for it but I do think it's kind of a crew irony. Overall. And IT WHA. What's like? What struck me was the black investigator like he? Like he believes the white people. And he like he kept pushing. Like I guess he always like suspected the black people. You know as you said, like he had that captain waters in him. And I think it was you know it's sort of the classic. Dynamic be if you're a black person in power particularly in law enforcement in any way, you have to be especially hard on the black black people to show that there's no favoritism going on here even though everyone. You know everyone takes advantage of favoritism when it comes to particularly race in the United States. For Black People for some reason, you need to, you know be so performance about how fair you're being and how in many cases even more tougher you're being on black people the Obama dilemma for sure. But I didn't think that he was particularly being hard on black people because once the guy told him that only certain people have the forty five caliber I mean Isshin he was just doing his job as an investigator. I don't think he suspected a black person but I do think the possibility of it being the white people was kind of. Dismissed by the testimony that they gave. So he still had to keep an open mind and push forward and not rule out. You know any other possibilities which could be black people. So I think in that respect his actually being fair about it and the end when he was talking to the guy in the jeep and they, he gave them a ride. He's like he got your man. It's like he kind of respected that he was fair about it because even at the point when he was in the Office with the to to what guys even though you could tell they were obviously racist. He still kept his cool and he still didn't push to indict them for it because he knew it would be wrong. So I think he kinda showed a high level of fairness and integrity, and that got him the respect of the guy at the end. So you know because he could have just gone for those two guys. The officer wanted to give them up but he was like, no, I'm not gonNA settle for that because it's not right. So. and to me, that was one of the few off notes in the film in that I don't think he would've gotten any respect by being fair you know during the time period. I think that would have. To run a bit more true. Than is sort of. Dredging respect that he got from the the other officer and the end. Because you know. As those sort of applicant I'm forgetting the rank of the officer said. In the beginning when he that Negroes Lynch down here all the time you know it's happens worst thing you can do is start looking to closely into the death of a Negro. But I have to give them the fifty fifty on that because I wasn't there at the time and I'm not caring for Whiteness at this point but I do feel like there is a hierarchy and they respect even they don't respect your absolute value they do respect the hierarchy so. His job properly even if he was just a to him, just another black person. He would still respect the fact that he acted S. he was supposed to his point in a hurricane did his job, right? So I think it's it's a halfway thing I have to give them. Credit possibly possibly not. I couldn't really definitively say because you know you have to I'm holding them to their own standards to. Their own double standards as well. Understood I'm going to read from the study. Guide Not, just as a way to defer to it, but to kind of throughout the Challenge about what you agree with and. Don't agree with in the in the study guide right Some I. I, agree with some of it I don't agree with I, think would be interesting way to kind of. Stroke Imagination so Under the summary, there's this paragraph about The the this is based on the play as well. It's not based on a movie. So there may be some differences, but it says. A, strong outspoken opinionated. Peterson faces off waters who's militant agenda for black destiny causes the innocent naive CJ to commit suicide. Waters heinous sinister and offense obsessive master plan to cleanse the black race of quote unquote key cheese set such a CJ meets its match in Peterson's own calculated perspective of how to refashion the black image. Mutual hatred eventually leads to murder not before however, waters realizes the flaw in his inhumane master plan. Greece's own obsession with blackness and challenges the source of his misdirected self justifying posture. In a wanted to get you guys started on on that paragraph. I I think it was fairly accurate. I, think it. It. It puts two words a richer. understanding of the the two different. World views that were represented in those characters, but I think that that's. In. That resonates with my experience watching the film. The thing about this paragraph that I didn't pick up before I, never really thought about. Until I. went to this paragraph. How Much Peterson Mira waters and that it was kind of two wrongs don't make a right that Peterson had his own very calculated perspective of how to refashion the black image and I'll be honest I. I kinda. Thought of myself and this project with. Peterson, like if if for example. Waters represents kind of like what a lot of these. Black Bushy types or. Blue types kind of do In a way is Peterson's idea of I. Mean I mean think about Peterson, this podcast things that we talk about and it's like. Waters. Peterson was in defense of CJ and defend the CJ but hated Waters as This kind of. UPPITY bourgeois type of kooning. So to speak you know and that his elitism and whatever it was a kind of Type of timing that was worse than. The type of. Low Class Type of. Timing that. Water saw in CJ and he can develop his own kind of blindside today and I was critical of Peterson the where it wasn't. Before. I went by people kind of think about that. You know like About the peel like who would appear sins of the world. Today. And do you do you agree that? They can be as culpable as the the waters of the world. That is a tough one. I mean I think you know. Whether the talking about the siege as the waters or the Peterson's you're talking about them in the framework of white supremacy. So it's Realistically how culpable can they be? That's a great answer. I think I think it's a wonderful answer. I mean they can obviously run along way. Shifting more to the analogy of. The sergeant waters and Blue Checks, they can get pretty far at least today in the world and even create their own little fiefdoms. But again, ultimately, you know how far can they truly get? I think it's one of the themes of this movie I picked up this time was all the misdirected anger at each other and very little directed at at white people. I think that was part of the lesson whether it was waters CJ Peterson hating. and. Everyone just kind of. Turning on each other or kissing asses in. There was so much misdirected rage against each other but it was exactly what you said I. Don't think it's accidental I think it's it's it's their lake. There was none of time spent attacking. White supremacy and this last sentence of the paragraph. Says which I didn't think about before it says. Repeat. It again, mutual hatred eventually leads to murder not before however, waters realizes a flaw in his inhumane master-plan. Greece's obsession with blackness and challenges. The source of is misdirected self justifying posture and when I. Read that sentence I realized that was the point of the last seen with. The white people who beat him up before that seeing he doesn't really challenge people like that and I. I didn't pick up on it until this I read that. I'm like Oh. That's what happened there the debt of CJ. And the drinking kind of made me realize that I was aimed my guns were wrong all along I was attacking. Other black people when I should have been standing up to white people and vet seeing where he's all mouthy with the white people. That's why it was there that was But you guys might not agree with you but you guys might not think that's what that seeing the white people before he died. Symbolize and. If. So I'd like to hear that too. You know I think I think you're right on that in a way CJ. Became Caesar's ghost. But what what I was thinking about was all the misdirected anger is their. That's right. But it's like they're all three men that are going off to fight a war for white people you know what I mean. And that's another example misdirected anger. Well, you know. That they're even doing that mission to begin with. And with and that's what makes it all the more tragic when When waters final message. Falls death on Peterson's ears like. They'll. They'll never love you whatever. Yeah but but it will def on his own ears until recently look I think even for waters that was recent Tiffany, you know because the whole movie he was still chasing the himself some. Of Cj. For some. broken down to the point where he could finally admitted. To himself that's I think is part of the tragedy to I. Think it was it fell on deaf ears of Peterson but unfortunately. Peterson's going to learn the too late the same way that. Waters learned learned the too late to add an extra. Element. Of what Winfield was saying about that they're all fighting for this war read this knobs us to the play. This was left out of the book. It turns out according to Synopsis Of the play. You find out the very very end. There's a note where they tell the audience that the Black Company went to fight in the European theater and they all died. Sort of still a whole troop dies. There was actually a recent revival in New York of the play just right before it was going for about a year before. Broadway shut down to Cova. had learned the word, right? Yeah. Blair. Underwood played the heart browse character and. I think David Alan grier played the sergeant waters character. Oh. That's wonderful. That's a great call back. And he was in the original. Production Theater Production David. Alan grier. Also so he's been in multiple versions even before this movie. I WanNa see was misdirected anger. Just. For everybody, to die. At the end And also the fact they were so euphoric about getting their chance to fight in the war you know. who was like they were they were they had been sitting around waiting for that for. A long time and when they finally got a chance. You know it was like you know. The fourth of July for them. Yeah. and. It's weird 'cause everybody in they had made a devil's bargain. But if you think of its entire unit of black people all making that same bogging, know what I mean and then to know that they all went off in died it just shows you what was it really worth at the end of the day you know because none of them would have lived to see. The fruits of their labor even if it was. A little bit at the end because you know how it went off to the war they and get anything. It was all designed for them to be excluded but. The practically literally died in the play I think was made. Rented at literal that they were never going to. Get the fruits of their labor. I'm curious why he took it when he took out the movie. And the part of the planet to kind of the movie I thought was interesting was sergeant waters is on and as a hero because he's believed to be the first black soldier from his hometown to die in action because his vra is death is wrongly reported. So there's a tragic irony that he ends up going down as a hero, a war hero because they misreport his. Death in the in the papers. It kind of reminds me of what someone said earlier about how. Unintentionally he becomes the hero of the peace because he. Leads to a and leads to this reckoning even though his actions. Were intended to do that I felt like. The author was kind of hanging lampshade on that by having. Him recorded in the history books as a hero by mistake even though he actually died in the ditch. Yeah Yeah and I think the reason why they didn't. put it out there that. All the all the company died was because that would be A. Real advertisement? Even getting involved militarily in America's conflict as an oppressive group they would. It would kind of communicate to the people that there's absolutely zero incentive you know whereas when people historically did do it they did it with the hopes of you know gaining. Respect. Of The nation when they got back if they got back We. We also think that's the difference between theater and film. Particularly, you know mainstream movie of that time period you just wouldn't have had that sort of bleak ending the movie it ended. It was almost like the great escape. You know those like sort of a UPI marching band music and. the Howard rollins character and know his white counterpart riding together. They sort of reconcile and everyone's happy sort of goes off into the sunset that was again one of the other two off notes to me. It's a sort of the tone really changed almost came like a buddy picture for the last three minutes. Yeah Yeah, and when you read about the play, it seems like it was very different in that in that respect and. And Yeah, that's a great observation. And I think theater generally speaking when you leave it is like you leave it more with. I feel like when you watch a movie, you just watch it. But when you see when you go to see a play, you walk out with more of an emotional feeling afterwards and also emotional investment when you're there because you're literally seeing the performance. So it's kind of like for them to dial the end you walk out knowing that it just gives you a different set of feelings. You know what I mean you're you're an you know maybe to he's at the ambiguity of it was a little bit better as far as letting you. Wonder. Excuse me work it out for yourself. You know Because I think the way you kind of came to the conclusion that. There was nothing waiting for him back home in August they weren't going to see the fruits of their labor. I think it's probably more rewarding viewer to work out on your own then having rendered. So literal I think there's pros and cons. To both approaches like a different pro in rendering it. So little. So literal because it makes a real gut punch for the audience, but you know. On the other hand not running so so Literal gives you a chance to Kinda grapple with the and come to the conclusion of possibility on their own. Or? Ambiguous though because. Like you said earlier like it was kind of celebratory at the end. So it would be natural to walk away with that thinking like this is the store. A transcendence and integration working where clearly that's not the message just play. It's that this was you know here, stills, cotton confines of white supremacy, and they're all going to die for it. But what's interesting is despite you sing that Winfield? Only saw the movie and this is I. I'm seeing it and he came. But is that because when you came into it with Pessimistic views about. Race in. America already you know so I mean you you might be right that. Like. For example, Winfield's takeaway from the movie kind of shows. You can watch optimistic illusion of ending and still come away with the same Conclusion but to play devil's advocate to that maybe winfield. was able to do that because he already had that viewpoint about. the limits of integration and it wasn't really the movie deserves credit for communicating that. I think you're right because Yeah. Had family in there and they came back and told me stuff. So I kind of have. My viewpoint is informed more by life than it is by the. By the medium itself. So I would say they didn't have the celebration scene at the end and they just ended with the war starting and they were like going off but it didn't have that fanfare kind of music and people. Jumping around and being happy about it it. That ending without snowing that everybody died would fit the film medium better because you could walk out and wonder you know you're your with the music it Kinda propagandizes that part. Think it's a better ending for the film than saying everybody died because got punched like I said, you don't want that walking out in cinema that's good for theater but it just doesn't fit cinema side could understand what he adapted it that way he probably did it on purpose. Here's a couple of sentences from later in the guide The last one I especially when you you guys, thoughts on it says The story is revealed in Flash in flashbacks in which waters. By picking on well, like good nature country boring name CJ Memphis whom he sends to the Brig on a trumped up charge cj is held. They're intimidated by the sergeant was embarrassed by CJ uncle Tom ways. CDs A gifted musician and also the best better in the company's baseball team he is a walking talking stereotype of town -Ted self deprecating black man and waters hates the type. He frame CJ to get him thrown into the Brig. So he can intimidate him and change his ways and to change his ways part I circled I'm I'm. Curious. If. It. Had that interpretation because the play was maybe written different me or if It's because the play was the same but. This writer just took that away from. the material regardless because. I I'm not so sure he wanted to change his ways but I'm open to at my mind changed on it i WanNa Watch the movie and try to look and see if Death communicated at all that he wanted to reform a CJ Morton Destroy. Limiting but I want your thoughts on that fury. Well CJ he wasn't It's not like he offered him a deal like I'm going to help you out of here. You have to act this way once you get out, it was more of a punishment thing. So I think we would have to like like you said, we would have to look at the actual like play script and compare. The I agree. Maybe his long-term purposes was to have cj reflect on who he is and his actions after he'd already been punished and maybe some change that. But you know it's hard. Water also mentioned as I said earlier that he had done something similar to several other black soldiers so. I'm not sure he was keeping tabs on them to see if they've changed their ways. Yeah. I would love to know what happened with those black soldiers. In the long run you know if you manage to. Quote Unquote changed their ways at all. I think the most scenic various thing like it quite simply put is. Fraser he says, it is the black race can't afford you anymore. And I think that's that's the main thing that makes me think that there. Probably wasn't any good upside to any of the stuff that you was doing. Because I personally think he's whole goal is to just. These people to decide like neutralize a particular way. So that he can look good in front of his superior. And I think that he was willing to do that in any way possible. I think Mr consider time compression in fact, film in a short and the language like Adidas Elitist said he used I just got the impression that he was trying to get rid of him period not teaching my lesson because that racial rhetoric is so high br like so. You know it's so intense that that's not the kind of thing you say to somebody that you just want to coach. He's like more of the hatchet man I'm going to come into the company and get trim the fat you know what I mean. So yeah. You know the more I think about one thing I like about. Him Dying being literal even though it's A little more tactic than the other thing is. Being that they fought their were fighting for the right. To fight, for their country. The fact that be. I think a lot of these inspirational type of modern blue check type movies would be by the representation be happy vet. You got a chance to prove to the white people you're as good as they are, and it would have been very aspirational. They got the chance to fight for their country and it would have been a decorated. It would have been retails it would have been a decorated thing. In a way to kind of stupid in the way that. They're fighting for the chance to. Die In a white person's war and they literally do die. So the striving is rendered hollow. In a way too I think would make a lot of. strivers leded leave. The play conflicted like it says, Hey, you know you wanNA. Get a chance to do stuff for for white people you WanNa see the table. Okay. Here this is what a seat at the table looks like a black person. You basically GONNA. Be Cannon Fodder and and UNMOURNED. You know and the irony of the one guy who didn't get to make it to the fight being mystery recorded as the hero. Is, Very, very perverse. I feel. I mean I still enough ultimately, which one is the better but that was just an extra. meaning to it at that was pretty interesting it. It's very anti driver in its in its own in its own way by. Pulling the rug out from them like that. Agreed. I agree as well. Let me see what else in this I thought was was good. This is this is interesting A soldier's. Play explores the corrosive effects of racism by focusing on the tragedy of one man Sergeant Brennan seawaters. Although he has. Distinguished himself in World War One and has risen in the ranks by his own effort and against an entrenched racism, his vision of himself extends far beyond his own career. His action reflects another purpose one granted and simple personal success water has taken it upon himself. The role of savior of all African Americans in society like Hamlet. Water takes it upon himself to set things right water suicide sinister side however is that he attempts to eliminate any black he finds inferior. Waters identity as a tragic heroes revealed to the audience. Slowly the investigating officer. Captain. Richard Davenport conducts a series of interviews in which characters summarize incidents involving waters. Complicating. The understanding of waters is the fact that the soldiers interviewed themselves do not understand him. Wilkie the first soldier interviewed respects, waters, because he earned his rank and his faithful to his wife and children the Second Peterson despises waters. Because, he sees him as a black bigger. The weizer even more divided waters captain Taylor thinks of him as a simpleton who does his job accurate Adequately. But the two bigots burden Wilcox are threatened by up Innis. Racial stereotypes continually interfere with the characters perceptions. The audience must infer waters character with. As the guide Davenport axes the chorus explaining the action while being involved in it, and I thought there was a lot of to unpack in those. Two. Paragraphs like this idea that. Everybody not just the whites. is working with stereotypes like the black people are stereotyping him. Too. So this image that he wants for himself to be like this messianic. Redeemer of the race. Peterson. Just sees them as a sellout and and. Tom. when person when white person you know we should have people he wants to impress people just see him as a simpleton the other two white people see him as uppity like nobody can see him. NOMA can see the false self that he wants to project. And then we can see the true self that he wants he wants to hide like. Well. There was a CJ saying that that he must be in a lot of pain. That's kind of ironic right? Because the one person he hates his probably the one person who did the best job of actually seeing him. Yeah and you use the word Messianic I. I was thinking like Cj is sort of like the Christ figure. If there is one. Yeah he is the sacrificial lamb. You, know something that we brought up that CJ is winning was accurately season. That might be the one reason why he is cj because CJ. Saw Him and he didn't see. those are the people they didn't see the false off that he desire to be seen as which is this messianic redeemer of the race but at the same time they didn't see. His despised truth either you know So he couldn't get his mad at them but CJ through his sympathy and empathy I think saw. The the part of waters that waters hated about himself and that kind of means. C.. J. Mirror like. I, see you and you know that I'm an imposter even if you're. Empathetic about it the fact that you can see the real meat of me and pain that makes me hate you even even more and I wonder even though this thing says that nobody Saudi him I think whoever just said that seizures auto really him I think it's a great insight and maybe also insight as to why. He hated him morton heat anyone else in addition to the other stuff by him being supposedly uncle Tom. I think you can make the case that willkie. was also if not Solely, the person who saw sergeant waters in the most complete light gave and said it in the film that you know he could go hot and cold one minute he would be. You know you know in the Juke Joint Levin The music and next minute he's saying some really foul. Shit. And also he's but that's external. That's external does does he know what's inside? That's making them do that right? Well, this is my second point. Sorry he he also saw sergeant waters reaction once cj died. He said that is what he's like sorry waters really took it hard. He started to drink a lot. He started started to act in ways I never seen before and I think. Again, seeing all those different. Types of behavior from sergeant water waters in his in its totality as opposed to just dealing with him in one scenario another like all the other. Different soldiers were I. Think he's the case can be made that will keep the one saw the most complete version of large waters. If there was, you know one that could be seen. Let's see what else is. This Stephan Petersen that that was interesting and denied I'm going to end it there. As far as my contribution in and pass back to. Pass back to the floor Cj provides an alternative of consciousness to waters that Cottam his vision of the races waters hate cj because cj represents what water stinks blacks must abandoned to achieve success southern roots, African American spiritualism, and the Blues Water himself only listens to symphonies and I think he mentioned that the soldiers at the end when he kind of finally realizes how futile always music they listen to symphonies. The. Our sports to Zd also represents sports. That's another thing when they're the place shows that CJ accepts his own identity. He is unashamed, his dialect, his music, his beliefs, and his background. Of Fuller, places, TJ at the center of historical African. Americans self expression by making him blue singer and his songs inevitably draw response from the company. His baseball aerobics also function in affirmation of community for he's a true team player in cj then fuller who's the author of the play? Advocates pluralism the acceptance of diversity as good in itself and as the only solution to the madness of race in America I'm not sure totally by that part. The Murderer Peterson is a fully developed character though he appears onstage only momentarily. Peterson like the other soldiers man understands water as quote new boss shorten shouting ordering people around. Peterson does not see that waters is a reflection of his own hidden self although water's equally demanding of everyone it is Peterson. Who kills them for Peterson senses his connection with waters like waters. Peterson tries to conceal the southern roots preferring to call Hollywood not Alabama. His ambition to rise in the army shown through his early enlistment reveals his illusions and mirrors waters own. Finally Peterson like waters Insult CJ. Gessen the plague that I remember insulting CJ in The movie. Justice Peter says he kills water the murder the murder though is peterson symbolic self destruction since Peterson is actually executing his own despised his hidden identity. So does things making the case that? Waters wanted to kill. Cj because CJ represented his own despised hidden identity but water's. Deep down like Peterson because Peterson to him represented his. Desired idealized hidden identity like like like he the Peterson was everything he wanted to believe that he was you know had good. Was Good. Looking had a good future was smart was a fighter. But the army was. Waters in realize that he was. Peterson CJ. And to CJ. I'm sorry to Peterson. Waters was Peterson's. Own despised hidden hidden identity and his own Cj I suspect. Peterson. was fleshed out. A. Little bit more we would have found that Davenport would have been To Peterson Peterson was to waters like someone that Peterson himself will look at it as an idealized. Go version of of himself. I feel like I give a lot there but Yeah, I mean an accent you. The, main thing that I sort of disagree with here is. I don't think Peterson was fleshed out enough to. Be Able to. See a lot of what was arrived in that passage. he did say the film that he was from Hollywood initially when Davenport questioned him to then said by way of Alabama us and he did you know stand up towards and they would cj J. tried to give him some farmers does whatever he was just like essentially saying, you won't even stand up for your own self. All a also is that the insult at this paragraph is talking about. But it was very light. I mean I think you know perhaps the stage play. Peterson is fleshed out in the way where it's clear that this is what's going on. To that in the film, but they weren't strong enough to. Take that was to play devil's advocate and this could be wrong but. Advocate if the idea is that Peterson That waters is. Our repressed or suppressed hidden. Version of Peterson that he's trying to eliminate and that he despises been shouldn't it be a lighter version like because the whole the whole point is that is a part of himself that he's trying to kill like I think it should come out in leaks. And I think he should be trying to under surface actually overcompensate against it and it should come out in leaks kind of like how? The. Parts of CJ vet Waters things are. Repressed, parts of himself are kind of come on in leaks like little things. He does with the white soldiers and stuff like that. You can even though he doesn't open the shuffle and and I country, you know. Little things can leak out that he's from the south that he Does kind of kiss up to why people just throwing that out. There is that during that there's a possibility that the weakness of it might be. what makes it true rather than this proves. I mean. I could see that maybe on A. Subsequent viewing. But I thought sergeant waters. Version of that really was much much clear. The way he behaved around the white soldiers I, agree because like night and day you could versus the way paved with the with the black. Soldiers. Maybe, upon further viewing or subsequent viewing, I might see Peterson in a different light when it comes to. Come to that connection sergeant waters. If Peterson was upset at CJ. For not standing up for himself then. by the end like we're cj his like. punched waters in the face and then sort of been forced to commit suicide by then you know waters or Peterson. Like less, it changed his view of him. I think it's probably fair. Maybe he did I I would love to see that fleshed out I I personally can answer it because I feel like they didn't do not pleasure but I'm curious what other people think about that Peterson predecessors to prison right I think he leaves to Be Tried I. Don't know if they ever say what the final disposition is but. I because I'm just thinking out of every out of all of this, you know everybody dies but if Peterson is going to trial, he's he's long survivor probably. Him, and smalls. Yeah. Him and. That's my point. That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point and what's the message in that that they end up being the ones to be. Survivors. Even if it's imprisoned. Yeah. That's that's a great. That's a great That's a great point something else in that passage I I read the interesting was The part that says water cj because CJ presents what? Waters things black must abandon to achieve success. And the fact that cj not only represents that but. So doesn't hate himself. You know like not only easy all these things. That he hates but. Accepts, it ends on a shame. He's done a dialect. His music is beliefs. And his and his background and in addition to not being ashamed of guests the opposite. Effect not only does he? Not Ruin the race so to speak or whatever but the white people seem to opening love him more was another thing that kind of made me think about checks and their hatred of. In a lot of ways The black communities far as. The street black men and toxic masculinity and how one of the things that they really hate is. Black men who don't. Hate being straight black men. Do you guys know what I mean. I don't know if you've seen like when they do this, but they really hate when. A black guy doesn't say you know yeah, I'm I am I am the white people, Black People, I I disagree that you know Strip Patriarchy is a real thing. It Really Burns Burns them that. They can't make them. Hate all the things that they think that the black community has to leave behind which is. The idea of. Being proud of being a sweet black men. They won't Pontificate. or bend the knee to The idea. That You know the like they're they're the problem. Yeah. An ad came out today a couple of minutes before while recording. This new. This new thing that came? Up You can hear it, I think it's really interesting This ad came out for Biden of fourteen black a whole bunch of black female mayors. Talking and leading off then a bunch of black male mayors and blackmail mayors are basically just Talk, how bad black men are in kind of made me think of that Paragraph Lake. To make it to the other side you have to. Accept and be ashamed be ashamed of yourself and agree that you are what's holding people. That's the only way I could accept you and. And I I think to a certain degree. That's kind of would have been the only thing that Would save cj in the eyes of waters if he admits. Yes. I. In. Fact wasn't ever seen where he tries to make cj say that. he's in good kitschy. And all across this country, and now it's our. Check it out for you. Can You? Can you hear this? Social Justice gets. Damage it doesn't work I. Think it comes through on the recorded version, but it won't come through. but. Is this ad where It says, it starts off with a bunch of black female mayor and the second black women have always saved this country voice done stuff. Then, then they get a bunch of black male mayors. And, the back end all these berate like you know it's time for us to do our part and it's like self flagellating. Got and. It was like I felt like that was a perfect personification of The kind that that dynamic in here and why was talking about this thing this whole idea that You're everything that you know the black community must must abandoned to achieve success I think there are certain degree traditional, straight blackmail masculine. The is in their ideas what the black community has to abandon to get success in in the white world you know. Unashamed. Straight. Black are the problem but on the flip side if you can be be ashamed. They can. Make Pe- make peace with you even but even then I think they'll still hate you to a degree I. Think nothing would ever really made water stop hating. Cj think you know I? Could just say for a minute the. The sort of revisionist history project that's going on right now with respect to. The role of black women and black men and black struggle that historically is just shocking. Oh Yeah it's amazing. What happened before too right because. I mean it kind of seems like to me like this. The scapegoating. A shifts like every few decades back in the fifties. And I'm sure you guys have probably read about the Mississippi Sovereign Commission. I haven't. So if you can, if you can explain that actually nothing about that. So, there's a good film on PBS I think if you guys can catch maybe youtube, it's called Spas Mississippi. And It talks about how you know the Mississippi government. You know worked really to kind of civil rights. movement would become the civil rights movement in Mississippi in the fifties. And the IT started with the the governor of the state in the fifties creating this. Mississippi Sovereign Commission. In, basically, what they did early on was started to connect with. Black collaborators. Who they described as being. Quote. level-headed Negroes who were against you know civil rights resist and said like. You know Segregation and white supremacy. And the overall sense that you get from these people that are collaborating with. The government is They're saying like. You know these people that want to March and sit in. Rights they're ruining it ruining it for the rest of it for the rest of us. and. So I think you know depending on the time like e scapegoating. Issues just shift and now. It's more of a gender-based scapegoating. In. The same thing like over and over again it's just like the Truman. Show? Just keeps. Feeding itself Yeah I. Totally agree but. I feel like that's kind of what this thing is capturing in in the. Dramatic Form Lake all the scapegoating in this thing, and you know it's kind of what I was trying to. Bring up announced, trying of all these examples like Amos, and Andy, at Murphy. Someone brought a blaxploitation I brought up mumble rap. You know there's Times where I would add. which is not really adding a restatement of what you're saying they. Change, roles sometimes where to see CJ's sometimes where to water sometimes. Peterson's and depending on the time the place, the context you know it's That's A real beauty of this of this play like a big complaint that I have with a lot of bad fictions when I say doesn't really give you anything to ponder. Outside of what happened. On the page or in the characters like that's just melodrama like metal dramas just. All you can do is really kind of a gossip about the characters on the page, but I think real drama You can extrapolate it to get lessons about. Timeless lessons about history about life. not bound restricted by no time and place I think what you just described as a perfectly is just one more example of What's happening this movie like an in that? Phase. I bet you if you re watched by Mississippi and thinking about who are to Cj's who are the waters, who are the Petersons, how do people see themselves like? I'm sure a lot of those black collaborators. Maybe. Brain. Much like waters. They probably thought these radicals that they're informing on are a bunch of CJ's or they're like messing it up for everybody. With their agitating, you know there. So, unashamed of you know ready come from and whatever and they're. Pushing back and. Also like maybe a little jealous that they're also getting all this. Attention and And praise even. As they've even though they feel like the white people don't really love them at least the white people like seemed like something them. You know. Yeah I totally agree there. There's a little bit of Sergeant waters and all of us. Deliver tools within your the WHO's He's to be even scarier. There's tools within me maybe not even that different than each other maybe they're fucked up in like like if the to wolves are Peterson in waters like. I never really thought about it. I'll washed it this time and also skimmed this thing the idea that even though I don't support Peterson killing waters I was a lot more sympathetic to Peterson. Was this time I felt a little more indicted by. Book Peterson and waters in my own in my own way. I feel I feel like CJ. was. Is this CJ was the only character without? Any real moral flaws. Yeah. To Me I. Think I think definitely. Like, we said earlier he's just has an honest. About. I think you could make the case for Davenport as well. He really was the sort of stereotypical credit to your race. Type Negro from that time period good point that carried himself and you know the sort of. The actions that he took and? Conversely. He was cast as load of classic outside agitator has the so racist to say. From the perspective of the the The officer who was over the base and even the guy who he eventually ended up getting some sort of affinity with. I think essentially. Davenport, he was the mayor that everybody was reflected through. So to me, he's a character there, but he's also just simply a mirror. And I think what? He's marrying all the cases what they'll have in common Cj has a floor believe it or not his is is is how naive here's because that leaves that leads him some open to. To be abused. What said I agree but I just wanted to clear that might. Agree Ness why freeze it as moral flaw? Do you think that councillors immoral flaw. In a way yeah. Because you're you're everybody ultimate responsibility to themselves you know. Vision is the first rule in nature if you're naive not fulfilling the first ruined, that's probably the biggest flaw of so solves ourself. So there's a moral imperative to preserve yourself to a degree. Okay. I'll. Nature if that were true. Then altruism like sacrifice self sacrifice to save other people that would be evil. In some respects it can be if misdirected, but it can also be good and ultimately. So sacrifice is one of those things. Where it's, it's power is is in in where it's supplied. So some altruism to the wrong source is actually not resum. So what I feel is Davenport being the married tomorrow all these men is that he's actually marrying all of them in the military trying to fight for empire offered probably similar or slightly different motivations, and he's marrying that all these people end up in some way destroyed and how I see it as a fool's errand. What you should actually be doing is not trying to gain acceptance in other people's eyes. It's you know by by working for them is to build yourself and get your own in earn your on acceptance the hard way. Guess I guess I interpreted CJ differently. I am someone who was like Ernest and wanting to share himself with others not not someone who I can't remember how you describe. All, they're all in their in service to something supposedly greater than themselves. They're all they're making a bargain. I do this. In. Exchange for. Exchange for Y you know nobody's in there just just just to be there you know. So I don't think there's a one hundred percent altruistic and I think back then they were drafted to. So they're doing this. You know some of them probably willfully some of them in some respects not willfully, but they're doing it. In the hope that they're fortunes will be different afterward you know and I feel like. It's just the wrong. If there was like one more character like in in the in the play like it would be like one of the players that like desperately doesn't want to go to war. And is like always practicing. And you know trying to you know. Make sure the team wins so that they don't have to fight. I think that would have helped helped that probably would have made it probably almost the perfect story if they had somebody that didn't want to be there was vocal about it. I feel like you almost. Much. Since seated of some pacifist leanings what will not wanting to use the gun. Like if he could have been the drafted character who is making the best bet. As Jesus reputation at the very least. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Like to go back to that You know that metaphor the tools like in my mind like the tools were. Like in the original in the original, it's like it's attributed to an Indian. Tools within me or is like one that represents all the bad stuff and then one that represents all the good stuff and then you know the one that you know we and they're fighting inside of you in the one that wins is the one you feed. That's that's the whole thing I'm going to make head even more what if does to wolves in you but the tools have to wolves inside them. And enter to wolves in this case are the Bear with me says little. Crazy right. So there's to wolves in you and inside one of the tools, his two wolves are Peterson and waters and inside the other wolf. His tools are Davenport and CJ. Yeah. I was going to say that yeah. Cj would have been one of the wolves and then that a waters would have been the other and that waters and Peterson's or a fault. Yeah I. DO agree they fall into that like one wolf that. That's acting from that native energy of shame and that kind of thing in like. This idea of purity and like getting rid of the negative out like the idea of cleansing as like a negative character archetype. Yeah Yeah Architecture is very good because archetype, the young word and the whole thing's a young in concept. The idea that if you. Know. What is kind of like one the metaphors I've heard for this is a magnet has a north and South Pole. But if you try to cut off. The South Pole and you know. I. You feel like I, just want to North Pole if you cut the South Pole, the part that you cut off. That end becomes a new South Pole you know, and that's like a metaphor. If you try to kill all the the evil in you or try to kill the scapegoat, say you put all the stuff in the scapegoat The evil just rises up in a in a different in a different way the same way the magnets forms of New South Pole to replace the one that you cut off and I feel like in certain ways Side of the coin, the coin itself has its own. Each side has his. Double sided I feel like, Davenport. and Cj were kind of flip sides of a coin in the same way. That water and Peterson were but. Then on of that those. People were flip sides of the coins. I think what you're saying. They're both they're like in two camps. Yeah, and and it's strange because Like Like the same energy like the water is directing at CJ is ultimately the the the one that makes Peterson kill waters. Yeah Like like the negative elements like itself is like self destructive you could say. No I I agree and there's and I feel like the waters and this I think the play in the movie didn't flesh out enough To wrap this up that keep. He can't. Keep making, keep making good points and it sparks another thought. I'm say this just hit me to a certain degree I think. The CJ and waters dynamic. Gets. done over again to a certain degree in the. Later confrontation between Davenport and Peterson on a more refined elevated I feel I. Feel like. The CJ the CJ waters thing is more crude Primeau version of what happens with. Davenport and Peterson and in both in both. Versions. The good side wins just in a different way like cj even though he commits suicide and basically. dies is as A. Result of. Waters torture of him. He kind of really wins at the end he. He basically haunts and changes and Forces waters to reevaluate his whole life and. In a weird waters. Wins and? CJ basically teaches him unfortunately it through his death that WHO who are you to judge who and who is not The right. Kind of Negro or credit twos race who gave you the right to judge who was fit to be Negron that that's basically the ultimate lesson that CJ teaches waters. Almost unintentionally, and then the Davenport Peterson thing I feel like is kind of mirroring of it where this time the over upper hand is held by the good side and he renders the question literal and explicit. Where he actually asked out loud who gave you the right to judge who was fit to be a Negro in that and I mean I think it's very interesting like almost four poles of action here and Everyone is different from each other and everyone is similar from each other. At the same time. Yeah if necessary points. How do you? How do you balance the two? Like how do you balance your need to I don't know gatekeeper. With I don't know. It's like, yeah it's like how do you express yourself authentically? Also, trying to gate keep other people. Yes and at and that's why I say I felt a little more indicted this time before because I thought like, why does the Peterson of waters in me like you know like? For example and I keep this number I, I'm making this epiphany and I keep not being able to stick to it. There's always time like maybe I shouldn't be so hard on these on blue checks or elitist or whatever, and I should try to find the good in them and combined with the try to find what's good in them and combined with him on that. But then something happens and it's so disrespectful and bad I. Just Fall Right back into my God. These people are terrible. They have to go you know. But I would not be able to transcend. I, feel like. Knocking myself to Malcolm X. don't pick I'm being presumptuous but. I. Remember reading a book Malcolm X's life and one of the things he kind of regretted. On life as they spent so much time attacking the so-called Tom's and everything when fell out with Elijah Muhammed he kinda wanted to start building bridges with all these people and he i. Like Chino wanted to reach out to Martin Luther King and just kind of figure out like maybe I don't like everything you do. But maybe there's something. At the end of the day you're you seem to be even if you're more simulation is that I would like you seem to be an same side for something maybe there's something we can Work. Together on unfortunately he died before he was able to do that. But he kind of regret all the time he spent in like. The media and the press lambasting them as. As as puppets Canada similar to how. So much of the time on in a soldier's story was these people attacking each other instead of white white supremacy, all all the CJ and the and the water's the Davenport's and the Peterson's all. cross-firing against. Against each other but I am I'll be honest. I can't do it every time I think I can do. Something people say just drives me nuts and I think there's no way. Yeah. It's like when your views are like to like opposed like it's it's. Like. It's like that saying you know, eat the fish spit out the bone year and they're just too many boats. Yeah. Exactly look like. Much Bat Water, does it take before? You just give up on the baby you know like I don't know but I mean I'm GonNa end my contribution there and I'll just open the door for everyone else to. Kind of. Say whatever else is on their mind they feel hasn't been expressed. If anybody has any final thoughts? Now. I think that's it. Yeah, I don't I don't have much more to add on an unrelated note and I. Don't want to spin off into another. Conversation. How about this if you're worried about that, why do you think about us stopping this recording it? You think is. Relevant to being recorded or you think it's like house it's not. It's not relevant. Okay. So so let's just Close this out and stop the recording there. Thanks everybody for. Joining, we'll talk about the other stuff off off the air.

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