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Hello there. This is Mike as sergeant quick warning. For parents listening with kids we did talk about C E S and some of the stories that came out of that which includes a conversation about sex. So just keep that in mind as you go forward and enjoy the show. It is Friday January eleven twenty nineteen. I'm Mike sergeant. And right now, we are going to talk about CAS and a bit of privacy stuff because this is the I'm more show. And joining us this week is not only Laura Gill. But also a flu f- in the background for listeners who aren't watching and tuning in as a kid. He's sitting on the couch behind Laurie. So we've got a we've got a doubles host on your end Laurie. I thank you this pizza. My my giants lovely cat that decided he wanted to join us and talk about the I love how chill pizza is. He he wanted to talk about the dogs of CS that Reginald Holly published on techno buffalo. He was a little fended by that. Because he thinks that cats are underrepresented at C. Yes. So that's why he's here. It's true. I love it. I love it. We are also joined by Georgia. Dow Hello, Georgia. And now are you doing like we're together? Again, we're together. Again. We're back in the saddle Iraq in it and doing it. Yeah. He just making that up. Song? Got a friend in me, again, not made that one is my friend in Canada. Well, my other friend and get it. It's Rene Ritchie. Hello Renee, Mike mentioning that. We should probably tell listeners of the show. They may not be aware of it. But earlier this week mobilizations announced that we brought techno buffalo into the family. Yes. John retina and wants to spend more time with his YouTube. So we get the benefit of having all that awesome. Buffalo sized content right here mobile nations. Yes, we're very excited, and we use every part of the techno buffalo Elliott Russell Holly. He sent the dogs of CS, which is what started lorries caz on its jewel style. Allow me to retort. I I didn't do that this. This is all pizza. All. Yeah. I mean, he's his own man. He wants to talk about the fact that catchers, doesn't he have his own? He hosts doesn't he? Cats in your coverage. I just can't get over that name. It's such a good name. Well, you know. Both love pizza, and then we got a cat. It's a why not name it after something we love. Now. Does that make it worry? Like, you know, you're like, let's eat some pizza and pizza loosen. You like not cool. It was almost named whiskey in according to that logic. I love it, isn't that? Actually. So were you spent quite a bit of time at CS Rene. You spent some time at sea ES, I spent time on the internet's scavenging for CBS news. So I think and Georgia you you probably heard a few things about see. Yes. Yeah. I might have I might it might have been thing. So what's this thing? What are you talking about very funny? So tell us Laura Gill. I don't know you wanna give it some highlights of CIs and some other things that you may have seen. Yes. So I'm trying it's at this. Blur of amazing information and content. The first thing I did. Yeah. It's it's a blur. That's that's what I wanted to talk about a blur. On Monday night. See us unveiled showed off a bunch of kind of like highlight things. It's it's sort of like a small version of the big thing that comes later in the week. So you kinda get a advanced view of of some of the cool things coming in one thing that stood out for me was from. I'm trying to find the article soy say rights hero, the company that makes this adorable robots that we love so much those little spinning robots. They have a new toy. It's designed for kids, and it's called spectrums. And it's this color coded pad that you use a little connected ring to tap on. And it it's you can assign different drumbeats to it. So you can kind of play around with the colors using this little ring now. That's awesome. But that's. It's not that incredible. But for me, the most incredible thing is that you can actually assign a color to the ring. So if you wanted to say, they they displayed an apple and an orange and a banana anything, so you what you do is you you kind of get the operator to code, and you touch the color, and then you assign that to a drumbeat so you can like play these like crazy beats on your fruits or you can you know on your shirt, you could just like change the colors like tap out. Some great fun things on your shirt. It's really fun. It's it's incredible. It's a fun little thing. I think it's great for kids. It's is customizable, so. It'll teach kids a little bit about coding while making it this fun, interactive news ical experience for them. Now is the sound come through your phone. Does it comes through the ringer? It comes through your phone, or you know, at the display they had the phone connected to a bluetooth speaker. So you can get some serious audio out of it because it comes through the phone. So you can connect to larger things in fact when they were at the actual see us on the show floor. They had like a deejay booth. And there was this guy who was just like tapping out beats and just like having a good old time and let go. Well. It was pretty cool rate. Yeah. Another cool. I was depressed about the Laurie. What it's like every CAS all the big news happens right before the actual show like time you get to the show. It's almost like the show is done. And it's a really weird vibe. But this year the Sunday night, they announced I tunes and airplay to for Samsung televisions and then first thing Monday morning, they announced airplane to and home kit for LG and then later in the day for video or vice versa. And then later in the day for Sony TV set. So by the end of Monday, you have Samsung with itunes and airplay too, but not home kit, and then Sony and vizo and LG with home kit and airplay to a couple of them are doing older models. LG is not. Because of course, that's the one. I have. And and everybody lost their mind over Apple's change in in entertainment strategies. Yeah. So renee. Let's talk about that for a minute. I it's really incredible and super awesome that this happening. What's your take on on? Why this why this came up out of nowhere? Really? I think my take is as we've seen like, I call it. Now, the situation ING. It's a play on the saturation. Ing is happening. Is that we've reached this point where smartphones are just ubiquitous and pretty much everybody who wants one and can afford one has one and everyone wants an iphone and can afford an iphone has an iphone that they're pretty much happy with. So it goes into a more PC like upgrade cycle where maybe if your old one gets hurt or like like purple is a new color or something they'll be there has to be something you'd upgrade work. It's not just like automatic. And so for a longtime apple was using services and everything else to make the iphone more valuable. But now they're starting to see the people want their services like China a country where apple like their sales went down. But their services went up, and this is a country where people don't usually pay for services to be right? Frank about it. So apple services are attractive. And I think they've realized that they can also function as a services company. Yes, they can they can do things to make the iphone more appealing like I message. But when it comes to all this TV stuff that they're investing billions of dollars in for like, Jennifer, Aniston, and Reese Witherspoon. And the bachelorette galactica people and Jj Abrams, they want as many eyeballs on that as they can possibly get. So having it on Samsung TV's and having everyone be able to use all these different TV's as airplay targets just makes the services more valuable Rene. I have to say I've so so so so so happy in this moment because earlier in the week. I subbed in for you on MAC break weekly. You ran good, by the way. What you've said there are the things that I said earlier, so I feel like I feel you did you. I don't know what the word I represented, and I feel happy about that. Because I think that this is apple saying look people have their phones we're not going to be able to convince people to not everybody. They're going to be able to convince me they're going to be able to get Vince all of you to get new phones. But for most people, no that's not going to be the case. So we gotta we gotta do something. And as long as I've been transcribing, those financial calls the number of times, they say service. Every single time goes up, and it's clear that they are very much, you know in services, and like you said not just for apple not for apple devices. It's not just services within the apple network. It is just we make these services that are available on different platforms. And so I think that it's smart, and I'm excited about it that other people will get to us I tunes, and I was just reading today about what it means to have home kit control for television. And it's it goes beyond just like being a hub or something like that. You're gonna be able to controlling brightness. You're going to be able to control power state, your that's what I've wanted in Lega. You can say Siri play. What about galactica on my living room, apple TV? And it'll just do it. It'll on it'll surp- like, that's so awesome. I can't wait. And there's no complaint at least for me here. And I know that there are. The privacy concerns as there always are. And those are things that we will dig into an Rene. You might have some more info on that said, they're not giving any access to any data to any television vendor, which is good. There you go. I mean, people are gonna say the microphones despite what we're watching anyway. But for the rest of the non tinfoil hat were over fun. It's gonna affect our usability with Siri, and these television sets than I you know, like, we already know how how hard it is for us to get to do what we want because she's protecting her privacy. I wonder if the television situation is going to be a little. A little be fine. So Rene does this mean that do you think that this means that Apple's going to spend more money and development on software versus hardware, or do you think? Thaddeus, just gonna stay the same though. I mean, apple what people like to say, Apple's software company or hardware company to make a point. But I've always been a product company that they use software and services, and hardware, all integrated together to make products that they think are differentiated and experiences that they think are compelling, and I don't think that will change. I think this is like the items on windows moment where like even Steve Jobs didn't want it. But it's hold him. It was so important. He had to do it. And you like find give them their glass of water in L. Now, there's just a lot more hill. And you've got to have a lot more glasses of water because there's no like dominant windows dial platform in the future. There's a bunch of different hardware and software and services platforms that we all have to contend with. So so I'll say does that mean that they're going to spend more time to make Siri better or it's just gonna? The itunes and other stuff in on the. Yeah. I think we talked about like two two weeks ago. They hired the head of Google search and giving him all the power now. He's an executive vice president we've had this happened before where it like sounds like they're going to really work on making Siri awesome. I don't know if they've ever done this before. But I mean like the gutted Siri and they made a bunch of bad decisions. This is the first time they've got like a guy again this guy ran Google search. And I I mean, I don't think there's anyone else better in the world, and he had an ethics problem. He didn't it wasn't that he that he was bad at his job. He he believes that has huge potential, but huge risk. And he believes that you have to invest in ethical I and he thought that apple was only place at scale where he could really do that. And I think that's an endorsement of not only their commitment, but their their policies. Yeah. Like we've seen before where where apple will say like, oh, we've made these improvements to Siri, but it was with the current, you know, group of people in the current folks leading the team and everything like that. And so this is the this is the first time where we're taking the person who was in charge of the assistant that has been lauded as the smartest assistant among the virtual assistance available. And I do think that we've got I think there's still some time to wait. But I do think we've got a good future ahead of us in in terms of that the funniest part was Laurie is so good people who haven't seen Laurie work at CS. They're in for a treat because like you said like Siri on these device control devices, Laurie and I were looking at a ton of of of Alexa, stuff and Laurie's. Like does this Alexa, light can you control? All your Lexus off from this light. And we was like can you control the light? And they're like, Nope. What? And over and over again. That's funny. Yeah. I that makes no sues the silly. So what else did you see? At CAS, though. I think some of the other great things that I saw announced there's so many. So I got to sit in with Russell Holly of the greater mobile nations. But I think he was there on behalf of sea of Android central for that particular one. There's these new smart glasses that are called focal 's by a company called north the the glasses of actually been around a while they're Toronto based and they do they exist already. They've got smart glasses on the market. They have there's this little holographic projector that goes on the side of the the lens. And it just projects this tiny little display right on you're on the inside. It only shows you notifications text messages things like that. It's not full integration. Smart. It's not like you look up, and you know, you can find directions to get down the street or anything is very simple and clean. I really like this idea because first of all the glasses actually looked really good. Like, some some of my coworkers were saying that they're they look like I think Mr. mobile was the one that said it looked like a Snickers bar on the side of your. It's not that. It's. It's easy to see when glue in the stickers Snickers bar. I'm surprised he stopped eating impossible burgers long enough to notice. I know he he really liked him possible. Which is another amazing thing that we got to see I wasn't there for the impossible bigger demo, but a bunch of the team were there, and they've raved about how realistic this non meat was which I thought was the weirdest thing. Because from a perspective of somebody who is like, a I have many many friends that are vegetarians vegans. And the last thing they want is to taste in have the texture of something that's meet like, they're the opposite of that. They want not meet they don't want it to taste like me. But what was kind of explained to me in? What understand though is impossible burger is not trying to make vegan and vegetarian food. They're trying to they're trying to change the meat industry. So that we're not using as much resources and destroying the environment in order to produce as much beef as we do in probably in the future. All the other animals. I think beef is just their first one. So that that's a different perspective their ideas that they want. They want carnivores they want meters just feel satisfied nutritionally and emotionally by the by the beef that they're eating but not be eating beef. So I think that's a great. That's a great concept in. It's a great idea. I'm I'm gonna put this out here. Now Miami-Dade concern when I hear something like this is how long has it going to be before we find out that it causes cancer? Or does other terrible to us. Thought you were going to say it was people. Nice thing is that it it is a soybean product. So it's something you've already been eating. They're just mass manufacturing one of the parts that is more difficult to manufacture to be able to get the yet. Maybe more. The and delicious to that. So it's not like, they're creating something that is new and weird in chemical there. Yeah. It's not synthetic there. Synthetically creating more some which we do a lot of like they're years east to grow hime. It's usually found in soy. Yeah. Your enemy razor that genetically modified. Like the words are scary to that. But when you actually look at how many foods we eat all the time that have been modified or like again genetically which adapted. Learn America was modified and he's great. Well, even and if you look at the domestication of animals like we really did work to modify them and that made them while. Yeah. In some cases, better. But I guess some people could argue about certain animals should not have been created fine. All walks allowed a lab speeds up a process that yes. In doing for hundreds of thousands of years. Like like corn is one of the most genetically modified creations, and that's because many many many years ago, there were people who were like, you know, this corn doesn't taste very good. But this one's very sweet. Personal experience. Look what's that? Let's its mix them together and try to make a new corn. And so we just did that by hand for small for disease infested investigations, right? So doesn't wipe out our entire set of of resource in agriculture. We've been doing this a lot. I think that it looks really scary. And I'm totally with you on Lori on asking the question is really important. Like, what is this and? Be this. 'cause people have that happen. It's not people. Aids. We've had bolts it's not me. I didn't know. And I think what what I mean by that. Like, obviously, this this product is not somehow like weirder. And and worse or any than anything else? But my what we've sort of grown into this, you've I'm sure you've heard the term farm to fork, and we've grown in a new culture of natural ingredients in and straight from the farm foods, and and you know, organically, grown meats and things like that. And to me what what the fear that. I have is that what I think is a great trend in a natural organic homegrown straight from the farm foods might be sort of swept under the rug as we start providing these other options that are are grown in labs. And I I hope that we can kind of have a balance where we can I definitely think that we need to abolish the the beef industry, the chicken industry, the pork industry that we have in the US because it's offensive how bad it is. Is. And this is definitely a way that we can can veer people away from eating too much beef. But I I would hate to think that we would stop stop this trend of of a nationally grown grown ingredients in an fresh fruits and vegetables in farm-to-fork and all that stuff. That's kind of what was on my mind when I was thinking about this. So I think you're right Bill the, but the law always probably be a place for, you know, different ways to do things because I think that some people will never kind of, you know, look into doing some people want to always go organic. I think some people will be like tried and true. I want an animal to be killed. So that I can eat on my plate. But I think that giving the options is great. And I think that you're right. This is for like people that would like to eat less meat for either health or for environment or just to try different things. And it gives them the option that and there's also now like lab-grown actual meat. So it's it's interesting to get the options, and as long as like, the FDA in all of the different places kind of look into it it heaven gestion. So like, I know you're saying he missing people. But if it was bad people like the people who let a spy on insisting. Like the people who've oil eating our private Rene. What if going for a segue, creepy segue? Let's go. Let's go for the subway. What are the who are these people, which which would be these people were Jesus? So you can have to this week. I mean, there's there's some every night. But there was to this week that we're particularly egregious, and I'll mention them both both, and then we can decide which one we want to get angry about I going to say either of them should be made into burgers. Let me finish. God. So was I it was ring doorbell an Amazon company, and they because they felt pressure for growth, they gave unfettered access to their Ukrainian developer team for the storage for every video from every user of their products. They also allow it executives to log in as sort of like an Uber God mode, which was the subject of previous abuse stories we've done, and if they had your Email address, they could look at any of your cameras and these included doorbells indoor outdoor cameras, and while they say that nobody did anything creepy. They didn't do anything to prevent anybody doing anything creepy. And this is not the first time ring had these issues and one of the parts that bothered me as they did not encrypt anything because they said they didn't want to interfere with potential business opportunities. And I know how to that either. It means that they wanted their executives to see everybody. What everybody in the world is doing with ring doorbells. So they could come up with ideas for products or they were going to try to do like, some monetization based on what they observed on our behavior and. Those makes me think that maybe they could be Hebron candidates. Oh my God. Pretty agree. Gis actually. So I don't know maybe my whole I really really bad because when I could hear inside of my house with my ring doorbell like I could hear what was happening in my home. I guess I had bad walls, but I can actually hear inside of my house. So this isn't just like watching who comes endore goes few door because you're like, well, I'm not doing anything wrong. So it doesn't matter. But this is a huge privacy issue. This is like a peeping Tom coming over to your house in saying, you know, what I'm just gonna do your raking the leaves of your house, and you're like, yeah. That sounds great. And then you see them just staring in at you in Norway. It they're sitting on your couch. Just watching you as you're walking around your house this huge. I think that this has to be a like again, this has to be a violation that has to become a crime. That's the only way that this is going to end there is more and more people are getting caught with doing this Rene. You're gonna give the other Hema burgers, right? There's no. Fine that you could give Amazon that would hurt them. But if the people in charge went to jail for violating laws that if they broke into your house to do. Yes. That would be a huge dissuasion. And how can this not be? This is my privacy. This is like you going into my house, you looking through my phone, you having me sign a ULA that says that you get to track everything that I say in do while you're there, these type of things should be criminal speaking of which so yeah, just said the phone thing. So the other one this week was motherboard, which is part of vice they decided to pay about any hunter to three hundred dollars and within a few minutes up one hundred had the location of someone's phone, and it turns out this was known before. But everyone sort of figured they'd fixed. It that the the US carriers and probably other carriers in the world, sell the location data of your phone to second parties who then resell it to third parties who then give it to pretty much bail bondsman and bounty hunters and debt collectors and all sorts of people, and because those people, you know, there's no policy enforcing them. The just resell it to anybody else. Want? So with a couple of hundred bucks, you can pretty much stock anybody, you want lovely lovely. I'm up for them being there. Plus, there's like Facebook that's like now on like as on phones that you cannot delete out. So becomes bloat wear on your phones to like, let's say companies that stick stuff on your phones that you cannot get rid of end that tracks you even if you do not use it. I'm Jay mentioned a third story this week. This story is that you cannot delete a Facebook from some Samsung phones, it stays is a stub. They say is to make it easier to reinstall it, which we all know his Bs because how hard is it to install Facebook. You don't need. They're like, no, it's just a stub. So that when you read install the app is. No, it's you just reinstalling an people have installed Facebook before we don't believe this other people think that it's creepy and it lets Facebook persist on your phone Bill done tests. The thing is I I get that people think their phones or to expensive. I get that. I really feel that. But when you point to other companies and say, they're cheaper. These companies have almost often almost. Always made them cheaper by making these deals like Lenovo was caught doing man in the middle attacks to inject spyware other companies have been stolen wherever and Wyatt's to put ads in their Samsung, pre installing apps, they they're not taking your money, but are putting other they're taking other people's money to do creepy stuff with your stuff, and you got to think of what actually costs you more in the long run. Yeah. I I'm really like so on my phone is dot go. Because I'm just so sick of it. I'm going to be switching it onto all of my computers as well. The cool part. Now is that while I'm browsing at the at the bottom of my phone when unlike just searching for like, whatever something it it gives me like all of the different stuff about duck duck go I can go to the website and they talk about privacy security. They tell you the apps that you can download to find out. What is the privacy rating of different websites that you go to websites that you go to can also track to that. And it's a great resource if you're wanting to become or privacy conscious to understand what you can do what you can't do and what you should do. And I I think that everyone should take a look at you know, moving away from Google. It's the only thing that they care about is their bottom dollar, and if they can have to go to jail, but true bottom dollar. Sorry my rent. No. It's a good read. It's actually really good now. Like, it was a little bit sketchy before it was weird. Now, it is great. And then you can just show it to the screen. I don't know if anyone's gonna be back because it's there we go a little too close. So it says like we don't track you, but other people do, and then you can click to the website, and it gives you all different types of information. So my ready use is being tracked by read it, and it just goes through, and you can read it and you click onto it, and they'll go to the website, and you can find out a little bit more about what they do in. What they don't do. And you can also go through them through duck duck go. It's really great tool before we move onto more topics. I do want to tell you all about our Powell's at fifty. So after is a way to save money on everything from gadgets to homegoods by shopping based on value and not hype. That means you're going to get the best deals the real deals. None of those fake discounts. If you sign up at thirty dot com, you're gonna get thoughtfully selected tech deals from places like Amazon and best buy as well as other deals. It's not just tech. It's all the stuff and none of the fluffy fifty dot com. That is the newsletter is a great way to get deals. That are curated you can also head to the website to get all of the deals or you can follow them on thriftier at thrift daily to get those deals piped into your feed your looking for places to spend your cold earned cash. Your your cold heart, cash thriftier is going to be that place for you while you're also saving money doing. So Laura Gill have you taken a peak over on thrift IRS website for us and having a little bit of technical difficulty. And I. Can't actually low to website at the moment. So maybe Caja surgery. Yeah. Georgia you find something for us. Okay. Here we go. I'm heading down. Oh, lordy. Lord or Lord here. We go is going in five by five have to say, I always there's something nice. Also about the site is just Ron is. It's just really fun to kind of like throw everything it is really really quick. They do great job with that. And the image is right there the deal. It shows you how much you're saving. Oh, okay. So I got I got one that I really have to. They're really liked. But here we go. Okay. So one is the safe travel little USB wall adopters for only eleven bucks, and they're beautiful so holder cute. Aren't they cute? They're wall adapters, they're eleven dollars. And they're so that when you travel you can just plug everything in and it's like a little tiny square, but they're beautiful like nearly all leader. International travel devices. Yeah. Wow. That's a good price. Like, everyone needs that. It's something that you don't think about until it's way too late to that. And then I'm gonna go to shoot because this. I'm actually looking looking for and this is probably the most stunning recycling than that I've ever seen so make recycling new habit with forty dollars off of the superhuman dual compartment step can. Know. That is all right. We're just one hundred sixty bucks. But it is beautiful. Like, it looks like art like Renee. This is what you should get because it looks like bloody art, it's the one honestly. So it's recommended I know so much about this. Because like it's seeing my. Yeah. It sits in my wishlist until I somehow have the extra money to buy this thing because it's a wire cutter recommendation. They have done they've wire cutter recommends it, you know, it's great. No, it's great. And they've done step testing to like five hundred thousand presses that you can hit that step thing to make the lid come up. And when the lid comes back down it seals the trash and recycling. So there's no smell that comes out, and it's super easy to change each of the individual bags that go in the recycling side in the trash side. This thing is really cool. And the fact that it's on sale is pretty awesome. So like if you've got some some expendable income that you want to spend on something that can last in your house for many many years this. Is a great thing. And I don't often see sales for the simple human stuff. So pretty pretty really looks. Like, it looks like art like I would see that. And it's like garbage cans unusually ugly Java's cannon ugly thing if falls over, and it's just not she'd with respect probably because it's not that pretty looking this is beautiful. So it's art it looks like our it stainless steel. So you have a fancy looking house or wanna make your house? Look more fancy this beautiful in dismay good in the kitchen or wherever you keep your trash and you're pregnant. Yes, it's you smell everything. What was just go along? I could smell like I knew what someone ate for breakfast. When I would go through the mall everywhere. I knew this person of this this percents of that that I had like this. I was like schnauzer like, I'm human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not a good way. The better. You don't not good. No. So is that okay? That's that's different show. But I have so many questions. Now, also, a kind of dumb thing. But it's something that I would be totally into there's a little tin dollar rechargeable lighter. It's USB rechargeable. And it's like bendy on the end. So you can like candles with it. You can like different things because it uses an arc. It's an arc lighter. So oh, yeah. Oh, I don't smoke or anything. So I wouldn't really need it handles. And for instance, I don't smoke to Andrew. Andrews the for fireworks. My brother uses it for fireworks. Sees the firework sparklers I like that. So that is dot com. We've got a lot of deals today. That are pretty exciting. Go get your fix at thrift dot com. As I said, you can also follow them on Twitter at thrift or daily or if you're in Canada, that's after CA or if you're in the United Kingdom, that's at thriftier UK. Thanks so much to fifty for sponsoring this week's episode of the I'm more show. Let's go ahead and move on. So home kit was out in full frigging force as CAS this year, which had me incredibly excited when I talked to apple about the home kit software authentication hitting I o s one of the things was that. I was going to have to wait a little bit to hear from companies who were using software authentication for their devices. And it is clear to me now that CAS twenty nineteen was the time that I was waiting for. This is the period where these companies are saying surprise, we've got home kit gadgets now. And that's because in many cases, it's the software authentication if people are going, let the heck are you talking about it used to be that if you wanted to market your products as works with apple home kit to get the the authorisation from apple you had to include a little hardware chip in your device that took care of all of the authentication stuff. That is no longer the case. However, a lot of people think that that means, oh, no, they're not as good. They're not as secure as they used to be. That is one hundred percent factually incorrect. The fact is the requirements for security and authentication remain the same whether you use software or you use hardware apple was actually making it easier on companies because they knew that it was so difficult to match those authentication requirements. They said we will have a chip available that takes care of all of that stuff for you. The fact that software authentication is available now means that the companies themselves are responsible for providing the authentication required by home kit in order to market it as a works with apple home kit product and to be able to integrate with Apple's home kit platform, so still just a safe. It's just that companies can have that power on their own now to do that authentication. They still have to send the device into an apple testing facility. It still has to pass Apple's requirements. It still has to be able to be set up completely with the home app for IOS. Meaning you don't have to sign up for a third party account. You don't have to go through the third party app. Meaning that it's all happening locally on your network, which is good for privacy and security reasons. So nothing has changed except that it makes it easier for companies who have had gadgets out there for a long time to be able to add home kit or two people to add home kit in a gracious to their devices. So that's why Belkin we are seeing much more gadgets there. I'm so excited Rene because I Kita is coming out with blinds smart blinds that aren't going to cost a billion dollars to have. And you better believe I'm going to be looking into that when they come out in April. I think so so many cool things and one of the things I really wanna talk about here is the brilliant net at MO video doorbell. So stark contrast to Amazon. Yes, exactly. So there are so many video doorbells and security cams from different companies where it's kinda like, it's it's almost an Emo. Now at this point where you buy it and part of the deal is that after you've bought it. You're going to be paying a monthly subscription to get access to all that video because they can't store all that video in the tiny little device that you have it's pipes it off to a server and get stored in their cloud, depending on the company that's not going to be you know, what you want. If it's looking inside your house or even outside your house. So at MO had the brilliant idea to include the ability to pop in a little SD card, and it will take care to record the video, and you can look at it locally without ever having to sign up for some online subscription. I think it's pretty smart move. Yeah. You could also set it to your private dropbox. If you do want an online repository, which is a great option as well. Okay. I hadn't heard that. That's awesome. Yes. So just with the card it'll record forty eight hours and then start overwriting, but you can pull anything you want. In the meantime, or you can if you want to because dropbox dole runs off them as onze cloud and some people don't want any of their lives online. But if you want to you can actually put it to just your dropbox so net net hat mo- doesn't have any access to any, you know, either. It's just yours. And if you. It also has this great theft protection. It's like someone tries to rip it off the wall. It'll snapshot their face real quick to try and see you got. It's got an accelerometer is what knows when it's being moved or messed with. Yeah. It was just it was it was one of the this new phase of being respectful for privacy and thinking about it. And like there's a door lock that uses the European standard of multi multi point. So it's harder to break into then a deadbolt. There was like so much more awareness of that. And it almost depressed me because at the same time, and I'm gonna shut up after saying this because I'm tired of men talking about it. We still we still face the shadows of sexism past which kind of made me, really sad. So Laura do you wanna do you want to break out on? What is Rene talking about this Sex's in times past gee, is there a such thing? One of the big big to do things that just kind of came to light as CAS was opening this this actually happened. I think back in October. But we all kind of learned about it just as C S was starting. There was a company, and I'm trying to find the name of it right now. The twin self was though say oh set. Yeah. That's true. The toys today, I thought might be the company's name. It was actually awarded by C S by by the sea TA organization. It was awarded a CS award for best. I think I wish I had this. Yeah. It was it was an innovation award. I'm sorry that I don't want the robotic sword. I'm yes. Okay. It's the assay device. It was it used to be called villa. It's developed in partnership with an engineering professor at Oregon state university. It was awarded an innovation one of innovation awards. They were selected as an honoree for the innovation awards. And then ES later contacted them and said, yes, so so they were just it was just pulled. They just they took away their award which and further they couldn't be on the floor either. They couldn't either there's there's a little bit more to that. So first, let's talk about the fact that they told them they they were they took away their award because it was considered to be immoral and oh gosh. I'm so sorry in decent profane and not in keeping with CTA's image. Okay. If people don't know is the body that's oversee. Yes. Yeah. So the so they took their award away from for for that reason. So there's two parts to it. So there's step one they took the took away their award, which is very unfortunate. When you're a company on you're trying to get people to pay attention to you and you get an award. And you know, okay. This is great. There are going to be so many companies that are looking at us. They're going to be interested in us. They're gonna they're gonna invest in us in wanna talk to us, and then to have that taken away for and using terms like profane an immoral when you're talking about something like this. That's a really devastating thing to have happened. So the founder of the company kind of fought back on this and was really just kind of not, okay. With the way. This was that. What was what was happening? So I if I'm not mistaken, they then told that company that they couldn't be at CEA. So the it wasn't both at the same time. It wasn't that. We're taking away your word annual can't come to see us. It was that would we're taking we're taking away your award. And then based on your. Behavior after we took away your award. We're now not gonna let you come to see us. I believe is the way that worked out. So I don't wanna miss misconstrue this idea that they banned this particular sex toy, and none other. I think there was a little bit more in- involved that that created the the entire your company can't come to this this ceus. But it's it really does shed light on. I think. It's it's certainly an odd thing to give a sex toy an award. But it's definitely this great. It was a great idea. Somebody had a great idea which was to present to the world that there is innovation in the sex related technology market because like I don't want to go into too much gory detail, but you can start with the things that we had twenty years ago. And then expand what we have now. And there's so much personalized customized detailed stuff that goes into the things that they're creating now that's innovative. It's not just like a piece of plastic that vibrates, and it's done the like, they they get really expensive on the different ways that they produce that in having to do with your how fast your heart is beating or how moisture skin gets from you know, the changes in your body. Like, the these things are all. Like, they work with that and provide something a little more customized to you. The the weird thing is that it's not like CS does not has not had sex toys, even actually sexual health related issues and things out before. Oh my ball. I went by where I thought like I actually went when I went to see us. I went by thinking that these were strained stylus. I swear to God. I'm so sorry, judge me. I know I thought they were stylish says I don't know if you were with me at the time, and it was unlike look at those styles. They're all such weird shapes. I'm so sad in theft. But anyway. It was chilling. Unlike why won't they let us they wouldn't let me take a photo. And I'm like, why won't you? Let me take a photo. And then I got it. I did no one had to tell me. Thank god. That would have been so embarrassing. But I got it that these were not these were sexual toys did not sign that you take photos, though, I don't understand they didn't want to have photos to that. But last year, they had a a female half of the female sex doll that was there, and she actually gave an interview, and she was there in that was again, I think that it's like our sexual health is really important. I think that this is a really big deal in an issue in these old kind of Judeo kind of op so now we should not at all be sexual beings swear bodies work, and it's important to understand it the more you understand your body. Then you know, when something's going wrong, then you can understand what you enjoy. What you don't enjoy life is rough as it is like, let's not get into that. But. But it's a really interesting thing that this one item because it was getting so many accolades they took off which is again was it because it was for female sexual health or was it because it was getting a lot of accolades, whereas they've had all kinds of different male oriented sexual things that they actually had proponents to they gave interviews to they left on the show floor. They didn't win an innovations that I know of. So maybe that was the issue to it. Maybe it wasn't a male female. Maybe it was just sexual health. Yes. I think let me just let quickly to say it, again, I'm fairly certain that the the issue was that it was a sex toy that got an award because the at see us, I saw dozens of sex toys for men and women. It wasn't a female related thing. It was because it was so it was getting so many accolades and people were talking about it. And they didn't want to have this related to see us because they thought they would get backlash. That's what you think. Laurie. I believe that. That's the case. Of course, again, like if it were something really into men's sexual health. It may not have even lost its award. And I do I do believe that there is no gender bias in here. But I don't want to assume that this not to do with the women's sexual health because there were dozens and dozens of women's sex health toys there as well as men's. Yeah. Interesting, and it's funny because the Scott more news because they were pulled than they would have talking about it. Right. It's the Barbra Streisand. Kind of thing. That's happening affect don't don't read this trying to get rid of this photo. Now, everyone wants to spread this photo to it because we probably wouldn't be discussing it. If it was not for this case. But I think that it is a really important topic. Sexual health is important shouldn't be taboo, we should talk about it more often. So that we can understand we know when things are right or wrong, and we don't feel embarrassed to be able to go to doctors or to therapist be able to talk about if there's a problem with something. So I'm happy we're talking about it, even if it was because. It was built. Yeah. No. I think you're right. It's great because it's creating a conversation that will hopefully allow for, you know, a sex join next year to win an innovation would, hopefully, it's a women's health sex minnaso- extra because that will be a big issue if that happens, but then at least we'll be talking about it true. That's true way. We'll discuss it in the more that we talk about it. The more becomes less taboo. So that's still the cat sex twenty missile. Holly will be all over. There. Are stay all upset. Thing goodbye, all of you out there for listening has to be like like not safe for work or something. Little kids sex toy for cats. You heard of your first this one labeled this when you can find me underscore. Dow. As me. Okay. We have to send a little disclaimer. You can't listen to this. At. Everyone for listening, George south people looking to get some get some help with this episode where go, wow, you might wanna check out dash, videos dot com or master dash life dot com, and we have video that will help you. If you have any idea that talking about these things check it out. Excellent Laura Gill people looking for you online where can they find you? They can find me at Laura Gill at most of the social things, but at apple Hollick on Twitter, ATP HOA. Excellent Rene Ritchie of people are looking to watch your videos or get in touch with you. How can they do? So they can do it at. I'm more dot com slash vector. Or just go to YouTube dot com slash vector show. We hit ten million of us a couple of days ago. So thank you all for all your support so grad, so congratulations. Congratulations. If you're looking for me online. You can find me at Mike is sergeant for most things you can also had to cheer wa wa dot coffee. That's HI HUA HOA dot coffee. You can find all of our writing over at. I'm more dot com. Thank you so much Jim door for editing. The show we will, of course, be back next week with more. I hope the pinning on when you're listening to this. You have a great week or weekend. This has been the I'm more show. I thank you.
Aired 4 months ago 79:46
From the Vault: John C. Lilly
Hi, I'm Daniel and I'm more and we're here to tell you all about our brand new podcast, Daniel and hor, hey, explained the universe in this podcast. Gonna talk about a lot of things mostly met physics and the universe. All those big mysteries scientists. A lot of things left to figure out even pretty basic stuff like what is space, what is time, but his stuff made out of which movie gets time travel. Right. That's an important question scientist. Are we alone in the universe? What is a black hole anyway, with inside a black hole, that's the bad. It's mostly me and hor horrific on stuff. We find fun and fascinating and hilarious. Look for Daniel and more, hey, explained the universe. We'll try to cover just about everything in the everything every don't the whole shebang from cats planets, two black holes and tiny particles. Hey stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert lamb and I'm Joe McCormack and it's Saturday. So we're going on into the vault and what do I see in the vault this time, but a bunch of dolphins that's ri- we're going back to February twenty third twenty sixteen. This is an episode that I did with Christian on John C, Lilly, John C, Lilly the psychot-. Yes, yes. The man has a very fascinating history from counter espionage researcher for the government to maverick and even renegade dolphin researcher to to counter culture icon. Just a fascinating figure to look at, and that's what this episode does. Well, put on your Davy Crockett hat and get ready to listen to John C, Lilly. Welcome to stuff to blow your mind from how stuff works dot com. Hey, blow your mind. My name is Robert lamb and I am Christian Sager in. We're going to be talking about a great combination of things today. 'isolation tanks, dolphins and psychedelics. Yeah. The creature from the black lagoon will actually show up Cold War era. Anti-espionage weird science, it's it's quite a package. You couldn't make this up. Like if you wrote a fictional account of a guy like John C, Lilly, it would seem absurd, but this is a life he led. Yeah. Indeed. I mean, even the fictionalized accounts of the man, I feel that they don't quite capture the the the weirdness and strangeness, and. Just mind expanding awesomeness of his actual story. They don't know so. But before we roll right in because I think we should really just dive into the deep end, no pun intended with John C, Lilly. Do. We just want to remind our audience that you know, we don't just do the podcast to blow your mind as a multimedia conglomerate, and you can visit us at stuff to blow your mind dot com where you can find blog posts by the podcast is obviously there of course. But for every podcast episode, we add related content. So in case you're curious about learning more, there's places that you can go. And then we also do videos as well. That's right in, hey, wherever you listen to be it items or Spotify or any of the various wonderful platforms out there, you can support the show by simply giving us a positive rating and positive review if the platform allows that kind of interaction. Yeah. And the last thing I'll say is before we get into is, don't forget to follow us on social media. If you're on Facebook, you're on Twitter. Tumbler. We're on all those platforms as blow the mind, and we don't only post our own stuff, but we curate lots of weird science. He bizarre audits, stuff that we find throughout the day as we're doing our research as right. So let's talk about Lilly. I, why are we covering him because lily for people who don't know, comes up frequently. I'd say in the last year of doing the show, he's coming up at least four or five times yen. An impasse episodes. I'm that we have had at least three episodes that have dealt with him at least in small portion, right? Yeah. You guys did a dolphin episode you in Julie, did it all on episode and then there was the, what was it the the like kind of crazy rockstar life of scientists? Yeah, yeah, we do when there was kind of a sampler platter of different real life scientists that had sort of a weird side to them. But lily is one of those individuals. First of all, that as we've been saying deserves a deeper dive, he deserves a closer look because there's just he was into into too many things. He really lived too many live. CBS to just try and convince it to a quick little segment about his psychedelic dolphin research. Most people may think of when we mentioned John C, Lilly. This is one of those moments to where I feel like the podcast format is really at an advantage here because in our case, you know lake, lots of the stuff that I've read about lily. Like you said, either focuses on one aspect of his work or another, right? It's like it's either like the 'isolation tax or it's just the dolphins, but I feel like we have the opportunity here to gather a lot of different resources come together and kind of try to piece it all together and figure out this like epic figure somehow and especially the like, like you said to for those of you who don't know, there's been to feature films at least two that were made based on as a character. The first day of the dolphin with George C, Scott. And then the second one is altered states, of course, which is. You know, were huge fans of here and it stars William her. You know, of course, as this lily kind of figure who takes acid in isolation tanks than finds himself to devolve ING, basically, right into various forms of proto humanity. Yeah, so he's, he's, he's a figure that the cast a large shadow across our pop- popular culture. And I think that can also be a stumbling block because you think of you might think of that older, John C, Lilly kind of a post hippie nutjob with with a Coon skin cap, talking about expanded consciousness and perhaps being something of a pariah to individuals who are working in legitimate scientific areas that he was once a part of. Yeah, there are certainly people who did not embrace the direction that he went into the latter part of his career. But this is what's interesting to me about him, especially like once we got into, I knew the surface level stuff, but going back and looking at his early life in how he started off in how kind of standardized his scientific career. Or was to begin with is really fascinating to see where he goes and the the kind of journey that he takes everybody on. Yeah. I mean, this is a guy that was trained in medicine, psycho analysis, biophysics any. He went from being published as a researcher and scientific journals, writing his own books about spirituality in the self in one of the things that's really important about Lilly. I think to just like our general culture today, it's it's hard to think of this because it's for my entire life. It's been this way, but people didn't use to think of dolphins as being intelligent mammals that were cute and cuddly and that we should try to keep from being killed in the ocean. Right. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you go back far enough their various myths that involve humans turning into dolphins or vice versa. But generally speaking before the nineteen fifties dolphins were a pest fishermen. They were, they were a fatty creature. You might render down for various products, but nobody was giving a lot of thought to what they were thinking or indeed what their consciousness might consist of. Yeah. And so. Almost every account that I read about lily traces his research with dolphins to how we treat dolphins today. E- even to, you know, good or bad. However, you think of it of like theme, parks, like SeaWorld and things like that. But like the interaction that human beings have with dolphins or other male mammals in the water like Wales, you know, in in that kind of a setting, you know, he really changed the way that we consider them as I guess, partners on earth is how he would probably put it. Right? Yeah. It's hard to imagine where we'd be right now considering dolphin intelligence without lily. I mean, I, I mean, I think we would definitely get to this point where we, we recognize the intelligence of the dolphin in an even engage in discussions about its potential person hood, but would we've gotten there as quickly would we have would we have gotten there with as much media attention and it all really came down to him wanting to map human consciousness. You know the, the dolphin work, the isolation tanks, taking St.. St. all it really boiled back to his medical background and just trying to figure out like the physicality of human consciousness where it was. Yeah, he in his later on certainly by by the nineteen seventies, he would often talk about the province of the mind which we reference in the title of this episode. Yes. So here's the lily quote that comes from, you know what? We what we based the title in the episode from he says, in the province of the mind, what one believes to be true is true or becomes true with certain limits to be found experience and experimentally. These limbs are further beliefs to be transcended in the mind. There are no limits that was in nineteen seventy two. And this was this was a post dolphin work going into LSD work. I'm assuming. Yeah, and I think it this is a great quote because it mentions this idea of the province of the mind something that he all of his work throughout his life as you mentioned. Yeah, seems to be questing for and then it also touches on this. Hi DEA of subjective truth, which becomes an increasingly important part of his work and at times a definite flaw in his scientific work. Right? Yeah. And it's especially important to consider too. I mean, like we say his whole life here. I read an account that when he was sixteen years old, he was verse starting to think about this in journals and things like that that he was working on like as a kid. This was something that concerned lily up until his death. Yeah. So let's let's let's back up a bit then in just a deal with the lily time line, let's talk about where he came from and and take listeners inner selves on a journey through his life, whereas much of it as we can actually digest about an hour and I'll say this before we get into it, I found that there are a lot of differing accounts to he was alive at just the right moment in time where it was. It wasn't like we couldn't log his life as we do now with social media. I mean, and there's like some. Different accounts. So like I said, when he sixteen years old, he's supposedly wrote this essay. He was born in nineteen fifteen in Saint Paul, Minnesota, and and this is the specific a question that was quoted as being the title of his essay. How can the mind render itself sufficiently objective to study itself? That's pretty heavy for a sixteen year old. I don't think I had thoughts like that until much later. Yeah, that's that's a that was thinking big for for that age, really? Yeah, unless it's like revisionist history on his part. But the other thing that I thought was really interesting is impression from the readings that lily came from a very wealthy family, I think, and his father. It sounds like wanted him to become a banker, but lily wanted to be a scientist. And so eventually his father kind of came around and supported him going to school to study science, but also backed him financially in some of his research after school as well. Yeah, that's the, that's the sense that I get from some of the resources we were looking at. I do have to to mention that as far as we know there's not a good, solid, concise biography out there. Not yet. Hopefully somebody's working on it. There are some very fine resources that we used for this episode. We'll site those as we, this is a book slash movie dying to be made. Yeah. I think that like in the same way that characters like Reich that we've talked about on the show before Schulkin just make for great potential fictionalization 's I think you know, I just learned this after we recorded the Reich episode, there's a feature film coming out about Reich. Oh yeah. Yeah. When I was searching for artwork for photos from the premier came out. All right. So lily goes on. It gets his physics degree from Caltech in nineteen thirty eight receives a doctorate in medicine from the university of Pennsylvania nineteen forty two. And as a faculty member, he studies biophysics and psycho analysis at the university of Pennsylvania is primarily interested in the physical structures of the brain. Where the the conscious self might be found. So that's pretty interesting in that, like he got his, he got his doctorate in medicine, right? And then he continues to do research or take classes as well as he's a faculty member. Like my understanding was the psychoanalysis stuff wasn't quite yet in the field when he was in school, but he still dabbling in learning more in adding everything to his resume. You have from an early point, we're seeing a guy who has this goal in mind this mystery that he wants to crack and he's going to throw everything he has at it. Yeah, and he's going to throw it. He's gonna utilize what? Whatever tools he can draw on, be they disciplines pharmaceuticals technologies. We see throughout his life. Yeah. And in some cases, it's also like where he's going to get the support from. Right. I think all of us who have large scale, creative endeavors that we're trying to push in, can't find necessarily the financial backing end up making compromises and come World War Two Luli ends up doing. Research mainly sounds like on the physiology of high altitude flying specifically for the air force and he was inventing different devices to measure gas gas pressure. For those purposes in this is one of the first time apparently that he used himself as a Guinea pig, lily, which he would go onto quite a bit later in his career. In fact, I think he had sort of a like an eat, those surrounding that right that I can't remember who it was, but I read that he, he, he took this from another like kind of big thinker scientists who basically said like, if you're not willing to experiment on yourself, then you shouldn't be willing to experiment on other human beings. In this seems to be the case here where he participated in an experiment where he was studying the effects of explosive decompression on pilots at high altitudes and by all accounts that I read, this was something that could have killed him, but he went about and this is in the. Thirties, going into the forties. All right. So after the war we're getting into the postwar two area, we're getting into the nineteen fifties a time increasingly defined by Cold War paranoia during this area that lily turns to neuroscience, which is a logical next step and quest for consciousness, right? And he's motivated in large part by pioneering brain surgeon wilder pin field. At this point in in short, what he ends up doing the applies electric engineering to the monitoring and mapping of the central nervous system again, drawing on the best technology able at the time. Yeah, try and crack this nut of consciousness. And I had read this is one of the first of his father. Sorry, instances of his father funding him. His father helped him pay for the design of something. He called the Bava Tron which was a device for recording the impulses from within a rabbit's brain, and they would project these impulses up onto like television screen as waves. So the. So the babba Tron included in array of sensors that were this is something we're gonna come back to over and over again with lily, basically putting electrodes on the surface of the brain of different animals in human beings and in nineteen fifty one, he published a paper that showed how to display these patterns in such a way, projecting brain electrical activity on television like screen. And I recently spent some time in the hospital. I had a family member in ICU, and I thought, wow, think the just the standard hospital machinery we have that are like measuring and showing us things like oxygen levels in and. Breathing and end in brain activity. You know, Lilley was one of the pioneers in that you can thank him for that. This is a guy who really did like impact our understanding medicine and thought, and despite where he went down further in his career, he really did have some contributions, yeah, down or or outdoor out. Look at it. Absolutely. From here, he moves onto the national institutes of mental health or nimh in this is an area where he begins to get into a lot of interesting and, and at times kind of creepy or yet. And I read an interesting thing that said that one of the reasons why he specifically went for this research position with Nim was that it gave him access to both the National Institute of neurological diseases because that would give him access to resources about the physical brain. But it also gave him access to the National Institute of mental health which focused on the mind. And he really wanted to combine the two. And he experimented on living brains with all these different techniques developed. So you know, we've got the rabbits. We talked about that, but then he moved onto monkeys. His goal was to stimulate monkey brains without causing trauma or damage to their brain tissue. So he was one of the first scientists to locate this monkey brain, not human brain, obviously. But he located their pain and pleasure centers and his work. They're allowed him to map their neural networks and to link sensory events, muscle movement, and other behaviors related to the activity in their brain. This is going to be important later on when we get into dolphins. Yeah. And this is minor standing some pretty invasive surgery at this point and experimentation. Any spends essentially a decade working on it here again, conducting invasive of vivisections of the cranium. And this is where things get into some creepy territory. Again, he's laser focused on his goal, but. He is in the ploy of nam he's working in in the time of of nineteen fifties, Cold War paranoia. It's us versus the Soviets. There's, they're all these fears of mind, control brainwashing, all sorts of strange counter espionage techniques, and according to d. Graham excellent paper, a mind in water, which was published in a Ryan magazine and is available online, include a link to it on the landing page. He says, lily later claimed not to care for this sort of thing. But in his prime as a government employee, he had high level security clearance j. Edgar Hoover knew him by name and was actively involved in research into brainwashing or reprogramming as it was then called among the cognisant. Sleep deprivation and operate controlled. Okay of animals with wires implanted in the pain centers of their gray matter unquote while so this gets back to when we were talking about we three on the animal. Weaponry thing. So yeah, I can imagine with all the things we learned from that episode of people stuffing bats into bombs and trying to figure out ways to use to attack people that of course, they would be looking at ways to try to stimulate their brains. Well, ran and go. Go, he was not just animals, but humans in an unpublished paper of lilies titled special considerations of modified human agents as reconnaissance and intelligence devices. I really don't have to further. But he talked about such things as the quote, covert, and relatively safe implantation of electrodes into the human brain for the push button control of the totality of motivation and of consciousness. I wonder how much lillies sort of like beginning work set the stage for brain computer interface work. You know that's being studied today because that's obviously a big field of of inquiry right now. Yeah. I mean to to whatever extent his his ideas, he'll were actually apple given the technology of the time and certainly foreshadowing where the technology would go. He certainly dreaming in in the direction that we're that we're still headed. So one of the things that I was trying to figure out what we were doing, the research was whether or not these were pain free methods, and I believe later in his career, he definitely wanted to get to a point, right? Like I mentioned earlier that, you know, his goal was not to cause trauma in the monkeys not to damage their brain. Tissue, but I imagine it wasn't comfortable having these electrodes stuck in their brains, right? Yeah. At minder standing, it also depended on what he was working on. So you could use anesthetics on certain animal. Yeah, but as we'll discuss their other animals that that simply stop breathing if you put them under an anesthetic, right? Yeah, in there's always there's a very interesting despite his profound respect for dolphins later on. There's some weird stuff that goes on with the dolphin research as well too, in terms of like treating them humanely. Yeah. And in in certainly at this point in his career he has, he's he's a very unsentimental guy. Laser focused on this consciousness 'nigma, but he's not necessarily. He's not. He's certainly not the sort of hippie mythic figure counterculture figure see later on quite the opposite. This is a guy who's on first name basis with j. Edgar Hoover. He's very much a part of the establishment in kind of a scary part of the establishment. And he. He is going to do what needs to be done to get the results, right? So it's during this creepy period lily. I learned from an oceanographer colleague that the largest brains are found in small tooth Wales intrigued. He sets out to implant electrodes in the brains of captive dolphins at Florida's marine studios. Now, this place still exist today under the name Marineland of Florida. Some of our listeners have been there and can speak to it. But at the time they specialized in b. movies really of particular. Note, they shot the creature from the black lagoon nineteen fifty four here and revenge of the creature while from nineteen fifty five while so John Seely was like peripherally involved with like universal horror, specifically the creature from the black lagoon I would. I think you might have mentioned this before the podcast. How cool would it be for the be like a creature of the black lagoon remake like mixes in some of the John C Lilly idea. Lia's of both dolphin human communication, but also I Sulaiman tanks in hallucinogenics. Yeah. I mean, in fact, we'll get back to the creature from the black goon in a minute because the connection between lily and the creature is even closer than you might be thinking right now. Cool. Cool. Okay. So he he engages in this work, right? He's, he's, he's putting the electrodes on the dolphins brains. One of the problems here is I mentioned is that dolphins stop breathing when they're under anesthetic, and this has to do with the conscious nature of dolphin respiration. It's it's not as as much of a sub-conscious activities is is it is for us surfaced Weller, right? So it's it's pretty rough. Work. Dolphins are dying during the experiments, but one of them before it passes makes a series of sounds and Lilley has this really is the Piff Unie he he feel he's listening to the sound. This dolphin is making. It sounds they're attempting to mimic his. Voice their tempting to mimic the voice of the other researchers in the room and in it's just this, this you Rica moment for him. He's been searching for for consciousness searching for for some sort of ultimately connection to another mind, and he feels as if he has glimpsed it. So this is sort of a good segue guess then from his dolph or actually, this isn't even the really scratching the surface of his dolphin research. Right? I sort of dabbles in this is where, yeah, he dabbles in and the light bulb goes off and he realizes, I have to work with these dolphins. Everything else I'm gonna. I'm just gonna walk away from because this is where I need to be. And then in order to facilitate this type of study, he develops, he invents the isolation tank, which most of us know nowadays, right? Because it's fairly popularized thing I was. I familiar with it from altered states. I was the first time I'd ever heard of. I think I probably saw altered states when I was like nineteen or twenty or something like that. But just last year, maybe two years ago, my wife for my birthday. Got me a gift card to go visit 'isolation tanks center here in Atlanta. Oh, yeah. I think we've likely been to the same place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've done it as well, right? Yeah. Ted for those of you who are not familiar with it? Yeah, you can probably find a a float place in your your area. You try it out for yourself, but essentially it is a chamber, a dark chamber filled with very buoyant saltwater. You go in there you, you know, maybe put on some goggles, maybe you're wearing a bathing suit, maybe not. And you're just floating there in the silence you all you're hearing is just the sound of the water, the sound of your, your own heartbeat, and because you're floating, you don't really sense any touch, right? It's which is unusual for us. We're always kind of bound to something by gravity, but this allows you to kind of just float there. The darkness takes away your eyesight for the most part. The one I was in kind of I don't know about you, but it had like. A little bit of transparency to its natural daylight kind of came in, and then there was what was the other? Oh, they gave me your plugs. Did you get your plugs? I may have gotten near plus. I can't remember. Now I do remember seeing lights eventually because I think I was in darkness and I also have to say that the warmness of the water is tends to be calibrated so that about human body temperature so that it's in a way the barriers of your body are no longer as hobbyists. So it's about isolating the mind and apparently like the idea for this came out of lily's work at them again, back to the counter espionage work. How do you break down a potential spy? How do you get break into their mind and interact with their consciousness? Well, what if you were to put a scary latex mask over their face? So they can't see anything submerged them in this buoyant tank of saltwater and just rob them of their senses without actually harming them. So really it was a form of psychological. Torture that was being devised and and it was apparently pretty traumatic for some of the individuals who tested it out. But of course, lily tested out well, he's all the positive potential for the kind of inward focus that it allowed. Yeah. I mean, the basic idea here was he wanted to test whether the brain would actually shut down if there was no stimuli received, right? But yeah, it's really interesting again. So like the figure that he becomes this kind of hippie psychedelic grew figure you trace back history and it's like ultimately connected to this kind of movement of torture and interrogation, right? I mean, like I don't know that they're necessarily using isolation tanks, but sensory deprivation is very much a thing that we do nowadays, we the United States military and government when we're trying to get information out of, you know somebody that that might have something that's going to, you know, potentially affect citizen or or an operation overseas or even just dishing out essentially punishment on individuals. That are in in solitary confinement. Yeah. And it's this is fascinating to me too because this is right around a little bit earlier, but around the same time that Michelle suco is really starting to look into sort of philosophy of discipline and punishment. I'm really curious if these two guys knew about each other and if they eve or if they interacted too, you know? Yeah, deed so lily. Yeah, really gets into the the idea of the isolation tank, and this is this is kind of happening in the background to the dolphin stuff. We just mentioned Manning's of the dolphins stuff. I'm gonna actually just read a one quote from him, and have you read another one? Because I think lily really captures what he saw in the tank, what he saw the tanks potential for the human mind. He said, all the average person has to do is get into the tank in the darkness and silence and float around until he realizes he is programming. Everything that is happening inside his head. You were free of the physical world at that point and anything can happen inside your head because everything is governed by the laws of thought rather than the laws of the external world. So you can go to the limits of your conceptions. And so this is a good moment. I think for us to sort of backup for the listener for you out there listening. If you've never done this and you've never seen it depicted or read about it. People often times report that during their experience in these tanks, they see colorful images. They have memories flash by. They kind of have like waking dreams, and there's even there's an. Some people reported inexperience of levels of consciousness where they feel they're in contact with other intelligent beings sort of outside of them. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's a century, a really meditative space, so I only floated once I did not get that kind of experience stand one needs to do it many times to get used to it, but but I have had experiences in meditation where I have. I have seen things and felt things that that lineup to certain extent with this kind of subjective experience. Yeah. I mean, it's possible to. So this is another instance that I where the like the the reporting seems to be a little bit varied for me. I read that it's possible that he actually started dabbling in this before any of the dolphin research. Maybe it was more official later on. I believe you're right on that. Okay. Because he apparently considered dolphins and other water mammals because of the idea of consciousness that existed in the state of flotation. Right? And it's somehow brought that up. But so here's another thing. We were talking about how you bring the temperature to about the same as the body, the body's temperature. Apparently at one point, while lily was experimenting on himself, he's trying to bring the temperature to the right thing and he fell into a coma. That was another thing that I read an EMMY must not have been that long or or serious, but I don't quite know how that would happen even especially given my experience in an isolation tank. But this was in one of the the papers I read. He also speculated now this is the beginning of the John C, Lilly. Everybody came to know of any tank, a person meaning man could orgasm without Jackie lighting. So another thing that comes out of this outside of his speculations of on orgasms in Jackie Latian is that he also figured out that even in the tank that the pure mental state that he was looking to achieve wasn't necessarily possible because it. Even eliminating all sensory stimulation. It just that kind of isolation of the tank wasn't a achieving that rum. This probably a good opportunity for me to read that second quote you mentioned. So this is from Lilley wrote lots of books on his own outside of his work with the government in that weren't published really by wouldn't call them peer reviewed in any sense, right. And this is one of them. I believe it's called. I love this title tanks for the memories flotation tank talks. Yeah, this is from ninety five. This is definitely later after. Yeah, so okay. He says at the highest level of secretary from which people return, the point of consciousness becomes a surface or solid, which extends throughout the whole known universe. This used to be called fusion with the universal mind or God in more modern terms. You've done a mathematical transformation in which your center of consciousness has ceased to be a travelling point and has become a surface or solid. Consciousness. It was in this state that I experienced myself as melted and intertwined with hundreds of billions of other beings in a thin sheet of consciousness that was distributed around the galaxy a membrane. Now, this definitely touches on some of his wackier theories that we're gonna get into later. Yeah, it it touches on some more mystical ideas that he explores in his work. I do have to say though with ultimately what he's talking about here and ultimately with with the experience of meditation also with the flow tank. A lot of what's happening is the shutdown of what's called the default mode network. Actually, we understand it more now is a series of of interconnected resting state networks involved in vision, hearing movement, attention and memory, but you can think of it as that Nevil ice what cartilage calls the mind. This sort of me centered narrative that's always running in the background of our head. Whether we are conscious of it or not, you know worrying about the pass worrying about the future. And if you can shut that off, then you're in this point of clarity and now nece and you can actually explore thoughts about yourself in the world around you in ways that you're off and crippled from. Yeah. I mean, this is certainly like what I try to get out of, you know, with yoga and meditation in some situations, but but also say after doing the isolation tank thing, I want one of those in my home. Maybe maybe if you did it too much it would it would sort of defeat the purpose for achieving that sort of lack of self right of thinking about everything else around you. I don't know. I've never heard anyone say they do too much there. Always people are really into it or just like after every day, coming home, just hop into one of those thirty minutes. That would be great. I read an account about there is a woman in the nineteen eighties who is apparently like a. I don't know that I would. Her student of lilies, but she was somebody followed his work closely. She was one of the first people to open a business around isolation tanks, and she had one in her home on the twenty fifth floor of a Manhattan skyscraper. And I think at the time she charged people like twenty five dollars per hour. One of her main clients with television exec, who would he said something along the lines of Hellenic after every flight home back to Manhattan after like doing a bunch of television sales type stuff, he would before even going home, go to her place in hop in one of these 'isolation tanks kind of fascinating like a guy like that saw the value and just kind of slowing everything down. Yeah. I mean, he's a bit leads busy life, so it would make sense. Hey, so our network has a new show. What's the show it is commune commune is a thought provoking new wellness podcast, where they explored the ideas, values and practices that bring people together every Tuesday, they release new episodes where they connect with experts scientists and storytellers on topics like food health, personal growth, environmental action, and social impact. For instance, some reason episodes include a conversation on implicit bias and racism with the founder of the twelve step program called a racist anonymous and examination of the reality of our own implicit bias with UCLA research scientists and social psychologist. Evelyn Carter communist hosted by Jeff Krosno. He's the individual bind the popular yoga festival wanderlust. And in addition to being a podcast communism, also an online course platform where thousands of participants take video courses together. That's right. It's called commune, so listen, subscribe on apple podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. This, we're going to turn back to dolphins. I feel like we've, we've set everything up to continue Lilly's journey. We're going to around nineteen fifty eight. This is when lily presents a paper before the American psychiatric association. Any makes some rather dramatic claims about the intelligence and abilities of the bottlenose dolphins. Specifically, the evidence that he cites apparent is arguably scant and anecdotal, but it resonated pretty strongly and resonated with the right people. So soon you had prestigious federal research awards rolling in and he uses these funds to build a dedicated dolphin laboratory on Saint Thomas in the US Virgin Islands, the communication research institute or cri. Yeah. In the most fascinating thing that you added to these notes is that at its height, this institute under lillies guy. Guidance was receiving half a million dollars a year in grant money exploded Razi, especially when you consider what half a million dollars was worth back then. Right? That's nuts that he was getting that much support. And it sounds like during this time he he had a home in Miami, sounded like he'd become fairly acclimated to Florida and right liked it a lot there, but he had the lab in Saint Thomas, and there is this really interesting nineteen sixty time magazine piece that I was able to pull. And it's this kind of fascinating like feature piece on on him. They describe him as a deep chested suntanned neurophysiologist. I like that that that must be where the idea for the George C, Scott character dolphin came from. But at the time that they came to visit him time magazine, that is he was working on an elaborate system of jetties pools at the center. The idea was that he was trying to learn about dolphin sonar for the navy. They were paying for the expenses of this construction in the idea was that they, they felt that dolphin's sonar was better than their own capabilities at the time. They wanted to figure out a way to. Verse engineer and mimic, yes, the the navy was definitely one of the interested parties that was won over by his his arguments for dolphin intelligence, dolphin abilities. I mean, he had some some convincing evidence, like you said, it wasn't all like a perfect, but when he he must have been a very charismatic guy. I'm oh, yeah. Because when he he gives these presentations people just fall head over heels for it. I mean, you hear it in his voice and you'll actually hear his voice at the end of this podcast. Like one of the things that I think he convinced the navy with was by dissecting dolphin brains. You know, we talked about this earlier. They're bigger than human brains obviously, but they also have as complicated cerebral cortex. And so this is when he starts planting electrodes in the dolphin brains, kind of along the same lines of what we were talking about the Monkees earlier, trying to stimulate their pleasure centers specifically with electric city. And this is the weirdest like this. Grossed me out this quote from the time magazine article. He said, when he first stimulated their pleasure centers with electrodes, the muscles around their blowhole smiled. That is the weirdest like, I don't know why just squeaks me out like the idea of a little smile for around and the, but the dolphins got like its head, peel scalp peeled back with all these electrodes wired into it, whatever the case, the dolphins loved it. In fact, there's an apparatus that he used to sort of train them with it. They could give themselves the electrical jolt and they did it so much that they became addicted to it. And this is this is this is a different story from what I you. You mentioned earlier, I in this nineteen sixty piece. They say, this is where he first encountered the dolphins mimicking human speech. He says that apparently maybe he's just, you know, the s them during an interview or something, but he says an apparatus broke down one day at the Saint Thomas laboratory, and he had left a tape recorder running and he heard a Donald Duck, like voice on tape recorder. Later on that was imitating him saying the words, three hundred twenty three over and over again. And then he also said that the dolphins imitated the buzz of a transformer in the rattle of a movie camera that we're in the atmosphere in the same laboratory space. Yes, there's this feeling that he's getting here that the not only is he reaching out to them to make communication, but they are reaching out to us and he has to meet them in the middle. He has to find a way to make this connection. In towards that end he starts documenting what he thinks is dolphin language. And you know, I think that it's it's fairly well-documented at this point that we know that there is such a thing. He learned one phrase in dolphin language that he reported back to time in nineteen sixty, and it was what he called. There May Day distress call and he describes it as sounding like a wolf whistling, which I don't. I don't know that that's necessarily a description that immediately calls a sound to my mind, but maybe Lilley was in countering more wolves than I do on a daily basis. But he specifically noted that this happened when he put a paralyzed dolphin in a pool. So one thing I wanna stop and ask is why would you do that? He puts this paralyzed dolphin in the pool, right? The dolphin sinks to the bottom and immediately starts crying out with this midday distress call while lily says the other dolphins all came to its rescue and pushed it back to the surface so that it could continue breathing. Maybe he, he speculated that that was gonna. Happen in this kind of test of their, I guess, like bond together, but it just again, I was like, wow, like. Despite his fascination in love for these animals, he's willing to let one potentially drown. Yeah. I mean, part of this I think is that he's, he's certainly working within the the scientific atmosphere of the day towards test animals of the day, and you can probably talk a bit of it to his. You know, his, his laser focused of vision, which we certainly saw during his days and continues to a certain extent with the dolphins it, it sounds from from the research, I was reading the his, his work with the dolphins, definitely got less invasive. He got further and further away from the sort of the the harder stuff of the nimh days, but but he was still at time sort of accused of of having an occasional cavalier attitude towards the test dolphins. I think though that that sort of phases out over time, but not a year later after this time thing, that's when he published his big dolphin. Book, right? Yes, nineteen sixty one man in dolphin adventures of a new scientific frontier. And this book just really becomes a big deal. Not only researchers not only scientists in the neck next, but just the general public are eating this book up, and I'm just gonna read you a quick sample from so you can get just an idea of some of the things he's talking about in his book. He's documenting his work with dolphins thus far, but he's also talking about where he thinks this work can take us. He said, quote, eventually it may be possible for humans to speak with another species. I've come to this conclusion after careful consideration of evidence game through my research experiments with dolphins, if new scientific developments are to be made in this direction. However, certain changes in our basic orientation orientation and philosophy will be necessary. So he's talking about just a game changing development here. He's talking about. He discusses us reaching the point where we, we teach dolphins to speak English to speak English. Yeah. And to even have. To create a chair for them on the United Nations. So you know, this is talking about finding an alien intelligence here on our planet and and and communing with them communicating with them and actually inviting them into our rule of the world. And he's clearly going into his own soul searching to. We like compare this with the history of his life. You know? I mean, I think he he had like a very personal reason for feeling so strongly about this given the way that he had experimented on these animals. Previously, he goes from that to thinking that they should be part of the United Nations end end up by the sixties. This is when he's publishing academic papers, galore showing the dolphins can mimic all kinds of human speech patterns by clicking squeaking in rasping, and he even talked. There's this British, I got the impression from the article. I read that this British anthropologist was a big deal at the time is name is gr-. Gregory Bateson and the US navy and an him and lily were all kind of influenced by the research that was going on at the center in Lilly pitched human dolphin communication to NASA at the time saying that if they were going to encounter aliens, this is the perfect way for them to sort of come up with a model of communication standards with an alien intelligence yet to to make sense, right. If you're attempting to communicate with a has a different yet equal form of consciousness. Yeah. And this could conceivably be an experiment in that, and you can see now where they have the dolphin came from. I don't know what year that came out. I want to say it was early seventies, maybe, but if you've never seen the movie before it involves the George C, Scott as John C, Lilly. They both had season middle character teaching dolphins to speak English. They can speak English, and I believe it's on behalf of the US government. And you know, they say things like fall of Pau, right? Like. Pau pawn, and I think he names them all things that rhyme with Pau because it's easier for them to pronounce or whatever. It's kind of silly movie, but it's also a little bit touching away. So yeah, the the book is a huge success inspires these movies. It's the idea to spills spreads like wildfire. And this was a period again, the fifties and sixties during which fascination with the underwater world is really taking off. This is the time of the scuba really, really exploding. Jacques Cousteau is making a big name for himself. Yeah, it's the time of c hunt and in nineteen sixty three. Of course. You see the television show flipper. Yeah, a mainstream television show about an intelligent dolphin that communicates human. Yeah, and this is where we come back to our connections to the creature from the black lagoon. Oh, yeah, hit me. So I kind of forgotten this, but that TV series flipper. Yeah, was based on a nineteen sixty three film of the same name. Okay. A film co create. Hated by recu Browning. Okay. Recoup Browning worth at marine studios, which we mentioned earlier where where lily initially went down to study dolphins and Browning actually portrayed the creature from the black lagoon in the first two films. So lillies actually the guy wearing the rubber suit. He was a guy in the earth's to creature. Okay. And and again, he co created flipper and lily is actually thanked in the credits to the nineteen sixty three film flipper. So that's nuts. Wow. Okay. Well, yeah, and it also makes me think of the film version of twenty thousand leagues into the sea was made around that time to probably right. I don't know the specific date on that. But yeah, there is that fascination with sort of undersea adventure. Yeah, it's opening up to us in ways that it just had not been previously available. And so we're, we're fascinated with this new world down there and then to to to also have this potential revelation late on our plate that there is an Intel. Silence down there more or less on par with our own. I wonder what John C Lilly thought of the abyss. I don't know. That would have been interesting. Yeah, that's probably in a way that's very lily movie isn't in so studies at the centre continue again, lillies approached gradually moves away from the sort of creepy world of them is work and into less invasive techniques, abandons the use of electrodes, and instead attempts to essentially meld minds with the dolphins to understand the shape of their consciousness. He turns increasingly to the flotation tank and intend to to achieve this pipes in hydrophone recordings of their sounds, and eventually to he starts using LSD and this is where it's all coming together. Right? Yeah. They seem like very disparate things. When you say dolphins isolation, tanks, LSD, but he's combining all of these things together. Yeah, ended the time, it's legal. He's able to get it through his, his connections, his clearance. He's getting totally on the board and beginning nineteen sixty four. He also is injecting it into the dolphins to see what kind of a fact it will. It will how didn't know that really? And this is pretty standard for the time. This is the time when there were a lot of LSD experiments going on, and we were putting LSD into the bodies of various animals and test of us to see how they responded. And apparently they did not really respond to LSD which he was kind of disappointed with, but he kept taking it. He kept going, yeah, he could. He could understand their minds. Yeah. So one of the things that I read when researching him and I hadn't really realized this, you do remember video game called echo the dolphin. Yeah, I do fatally remember it. I didn't play it. I talked to Joe about it, our co host and he did play it. Apparently the whole game was centered around lily his research in his sort of philosophy. Yeah, it had no idea. It apparently gets really psychedelic as it continues. I only ever played the. I level. So I have a very service level understanding of something. Joe said it was something to the effect that like there's even like an alien sort of over mind that causes the events on earth that make echo the dolphin half to try to go through this gammit of psychedelic levels. Save the world. That's cool. Yeah. So it cri we continue to see him doing what he's always done. He's using the best technology, various methodologies and attempt to achieve is his goal here. So for instance, he uses state of the art code, breaking computers attempt to crack the code of dolphin vocals, ation patterns, and as as Bruce Clark points out in his communication plus one paper from two thousand fourteen John, Lilly the mind of the dolphin and communication out of bounds. He says, lily mobilized the best available tools, a cutting edge array of cybernetic concepts in pursuit of his his breakthrough communicate. With dolphins. He employed quote, information theory bound up with first order Cybernetics operated with the heuristic computational metaphors alongside the actual computers of his era. So that actually speaks to my my question from earlier about bring computer interfaces. It sounds like he did have quite a bit of influence on BCI. Yes, it sounds like he did. Yeah, he was, you know, basically any area he applied himself to. He managed to influence that discipline sometimes in a positive reaction sometimes in a negative direction as well as well as gust, but but in all this to were getting into this problem of projection. Right. Oh, yeah. You mean like actual vocal projection? No, no, actually like projecting well, maybe to a certain extent, but also, you know, projecting your consciousness onto another creature. Oh, okay. Okay. As Clark points out in his paper projection short circuits, a proper understanding of what others are thinking or meaning. Convey when they make a community communicated offer. So that projection goes, it's a problem when we try and communicate with each other. Oh yeah, I'm not. I'm not communicating solely with you. I'm communicating with a version of you have in my mind, my expectations of you, and then the kind of feedback you provide as well. It's the inherent problem of of human communication. Yeah, and through a series of feedback and feed forward, we try to clear up like various psychological noise that gets in the middle there, understanding of what one another saying. But yeah, it's it's kind of like the human dilemma. Right? Is that like we're, we're never going to fully be able to, at least you know, with just our voices communicate what's going on inside our head to one another. Yeah, Lilly really wanted to get past that. Yeah, and but one of the problems of course is that he the spied scientific background and all of the the vigorous throwing into this, he's seems to always be working with the certainty that can. Communication can truly be established that not only is he reaching out, but they're reaching out to us. He said, quote, we must keep the working hypothesis in mind that they are highly intelligent and are just as interested in communicating with us is we are with them. So that's a potential stumbling block to your your efforts here because you already have it firmly established in your mind that this can be done. This connection is there to me made. I mean, the again, the intelligence of dolphins is in doubt, but to work with that kind of certainty with the kind of certainty that they reflect our desire to communicate as well. That's problematic. Yeah. And certainly I can imagine where that is where he starts to have some bling blocks with funders like the navy, for instance, in the air force or just any like even them right. Like when you start postulating that your test subjects are on an equal playing field with humanity and should be. Treated as such that's going to be immediately problematic for them, right? Because it's outside of their world understanding, but it also doesn't fit their agenda. Yeah, in word of these experiments and some of his methods and ideas, they're leaking out. He has some researchers that are leaving him and working exclusively for the navy, perhaps whispering about his his excessive use of the 'isolation tank. Perhaps they even know something about the LSD and they're definitely talking about the flooded dolphin cohabitation apartment that becomes a major project toward the end of cri says, this is actually, I don't know about this particularly, but I know that he pitched an idea that basically there needed to be some kind of living space that humans and dolphins could coexist within the communicate. Is this his attempt at that? Yeah, it's, I mean, in a lot of credit has to go to scientists Margaret, how love it, who was actually the woman who lived with the dolphins and she, she later wrote a book are. Articles came out about her experience, a great guardian article actually title dolphin, who loved me. Okay. And she comes up to lily with the idea like she's already researching dolphins, so she's drawn his activities here and according to her in the guardian p she says, maybe it was because I was living so close to the lab. It just seems so simple. Why let the water get in the way? So I said to John Lilly, I want to plaster everything and fill this place with water. I want to live here so it was she of scuba suit on or was it just was a shallow enough that she could wait around basically waterproof this whole living area. They made a flexible apartment. Okay, so that she could live there with the dolphin? Oh, four months of eventu-. Eventually I talked about it being a three month period that I, it ended up being a six month period where she was living with this stall in handpick dolphin named Peter in an attempt to teach him Inc. She was going to teach him to speak English. The idea here in that lily bought into was that she would be there just constantly as this kind of mother figure that they would have this chance to to bond in a way that human dolphin had not previously am assuming like she must have approached this linguistic effort, I guess, like using the same basis for which we teach young humans language, right? Yeah, that's my understanding very much. It was like a an adult human attempting to child human, how to speak. Okay. With the some added complications that end up being important later on in that they helped scandalise the work here, right? But dolphins are pretty can be pretty sexual creatures. So yeah. Yeah, I've heard story. This is probably where a lot of people are familiar with the story. Okay. Because she would occasionally have to help relieve help dispense Peter of his sexual urges. Let's say in order to keep the work going. Okay. She says, that's the way she approached approaching anon- from a sexual vantage point, but it was this is a part of how Peter bays is a dolphin. Uh-huh. We needed to sort of get that out of the way so we can continue working on language. Okay. Well, yeah, I could see where that would be quite scandalous. It's one thing to posit that a dolphin is on a sort of equal identity status, individ individualistic status with human being. It's another thing to start engaging with them what people would consider bestiality. Yeah, to get into a weird area here, we have to sort of explain yourself out of that attempt to explain yourself out of that to your backers or by nineteen seventy. Five. Actually, hustler magazine comes out with an article about it. Didn't they completely scandalized. Love it in and the experiment. They had some sort of provocative illustration and made it sound like like, love it and lily were just engaged in a, you know, a pan species free for all their something. Criticisms of this experiment aside clearly wasn't the point they were. They were trying to teach this creature to speak English. They were trying to to bridge this gap between the species and it, but it did get into some pretty weird area. This sounds like another like we should add this to our our little document of ideas. The sounds like a great thing that we should cover for a future episode is like how much animal sexuality gets in the way of human animal experimentation and end like this can't be the first time or only time that's happened. Yeah. Or the last. So what's a u turn when it's a y. o. u. turn. It's a moment of life transformations, which sounds exciting and it is. But if we're being honest transformation is also scary and uncomfortable, switching careers, leaving a relationship. Relocating having your first kid becoming an empty nester just starting or just starting over no matter the change. The questions are the same. How do we get fearless when we feel uncertain? How do we switch directions without getting totally lost and how can we actually enjoy the ride? We talk about it. We get on us. We definitely laugh our way through it because shift happens. I'm Lisa Oz and I'm Jill Hurtig join us as we navigate our own big life changes on our new podcast. You terms be sure to subscribe apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. By autumn of nineteen sixty six is increasingly more interested in LSD research than the ongoing dolphin research. You could say that he's probably spent more time in the tank with the LSD LSD becomes the thing that is holding his interest and seems to be the next logical place for his interest in consciousness to really focus and to keep it in perspective. He's he's kind of getting up to sort of retirement age at this point. I would imagine, right. Yeah. I mean, I should say so, and and so it's this point just as six months of cohabitation with Peter coming to an end funding dries up CR and its closure as announced, and they didn't even have a peer reviewed paper out yet. Again, this comes on the back of rumors that are spreading about the experiments cri apparently visiting board of granite Zamindar's also came and ended up giving a scathing review of the operation and lily charges that the navy researchers effectively sabotaged him and all of this. And you know, maybe they did. Yeah. And there's that sort of like, this is a question. I had a long like basically the whole journey for lily's like, where's the money coming from Ryan? Like, he obviously has that point where he's working very closely with the government in the military, and then he gets into this phase where they're co-funding stuff, but he's also got private resources possibly even from his family. But yeah, I can imagine that if they're like coming by to take a tour or something like that, they're probably a little bit horrified. It seems to be one of those cases where the establishment if you will were certainly find funding lily as long as his obsessions matched up with with with their goals and with their interest, but is his obsession drifted out of sync with theirs. They stepped away from him. It's fascinating, but it gets back to what we talked about in the animals as weapons Assode. Right? Like nine times out of ten. That's where the money comes for this kind of stuff. Yeah. So cri is just completely taken apart the the dolphins or most of the dolphins. Apparently released though. Peter apparently unfortunately dies in captivity later on Lilly told love it, that Peter died via suicide. That since dolphins have to consciously breathe that if a dolphin is significantly upset, it may simply shut down and stop breathing. And that is essentially what happened that it was upset by the severing of its bond with love it. Perhaps that's that's what love it. Let's love it says in her book and in interviews. Yeah. See. So this is a little bit different from what I had read and this is by lily's zone account. Later on, he sort of definetely goes on later on to say like he in the face of the navy and everybody else. He purposely let all the dolphins go any heave and said to the point, he said, well, they were finished reprogramming me. So he he, you know, obviously like went to the. Far into the metaphor with the dolphins were performing the experiments on him. He wasn't experimenting on them, right? And they chose to let him go, yes, indeed. And you know, at at this point, we really reached the point where lily begins to fall out of favor with a lot of folks. Certainly by the time that hustler magazine article comes out and seventy five. As pointed out in that Orion magazine, a peace of mind in the water that mentioned earlier, lily went on to just be widely reviled by professional dolphin researchers, and working scientists have for some time tended to to dismiss him as just a lunatic. You know, is this hippie nut job and you can understand that, right. I mean, you're trying to do this serious professional work, and his figure is sort of looming in in in your peripheral vision. The whole time people were perhaps bringing him up his, he's, he's tarnished your, your, your work, and your passions to a certain extent by his approach to tackling them well, especially knowing how competitive and sort of vicious, unfortunately that like academic and research competition can kind of go. Yeah, I'm not surprised at all that sort of the next generation of dolphin researchers turned on him, although it, you know, it also does sound like he wasn't exactly Purdue. Using a, I guess, like documented results, right. The kind of thing that were that were being looked for both for the funding, but also to justify, you know what he was doing. Exactly. Well, I also heard that a, I'm curious if this is still true this is from around the time right before he died. Apparently the the research station was going to be converted into a luxury condo living center that was called dolphin. Cove who? Yeah. So I wonder if dolphin cove is still there Saint Thomas, right? Yeah. Yeah, curious. I'd love to hear from you. I wonder if the underwater apartment is still there. You pay three hundred dollars a night to stay into. There's no dolphin. You just you know, eat while water that underwater. Yeah. So, okay. This is really like the final, I guess, stage of lilies research career as it were any kind of goes whole hog into the LSD field. Right? Right. And this is pretty much the the path he continues for the rest of his life. Really. This is where this is where Lili truly becomes the Coon skin cap wearing psychot- counterculture mythic figure when he gets his membership card into the psychedelic ventures. Oh, we talking about on on our episodes for quite some deficiently part of the team now. And I've seen photos of him hanging out with Timothy Leary, Allen Ginsberg during the stage and he, he apparently continues a certain degree of dolphin research. Some of it is more is on the scientific side like the use of musical tones. Some of it is more far more mystical, such as the looking into telepathy, but a in in the dolphin continues to be a kind of. A mascot for him and for his work. So even though the cri center is gone, yeah, the dolphin still remains an important part of life. But of course, otas LSD and the use of LSD and other psychoactive agents to still crack that none of consciousness in human existence and and reached that providence of the mind. And one of my understandings is that like once LSD became a legal, he sort of moved into other psychotropic specifically ketamine was one that he used a lot. And wrote about allies. Well, yes. Indeed, in in his writings are in in any indication, and he wrote a lot about his experiences using LSD like the times he used it. He really used like he went whole Haughey, had access legitimate access to a pharmaceutical grade LSD twenty-five and really attempted to break through to the other side with it. And this was one of the actual like primary resources you're able to get hold of for this episode right with one of his books specifically about these experiences with what's it called. It's called programming and meta programming in the human bio computer. Okay. This is just kind of his like lab notes of taking. Essentially, it's the big book of LSD observations published in nineteen seventy two. And it's got a very interesting book to read. It's difficult book to to read as well. A lot of lose writing on this sort of thing. It seems to be a facile. Dating synthesis of converging disciplines. So he's he's dealing with mysticism and new age thought. He's also using a lot of computer programming terminology and computer programming Neta fours as evidence in the title. And that goes back to when he was talking about the dolphins at the end of two, he said they reprogrammed right. Okay. And then there's a lot of psychoanalysis in there as well. Like any disciplines picked up any technologies picked up and goes into this writing. And at times there's almost a stream of consciousness quality to the writings? Yeah, as if all three of these interpretive systems are working at the same time in different ways and to sharing his thoughts in real time, and this can be a times alluring it can be read alienating their portions of programming, the human computer that that read like the stuffy est trip guide. You could possibly imagine. Yeah, I, yeah, I can sort of imagine especially because right, like he was beholden to no one. He's just kind of writing. If his present day it'd be publishing kindle, e books or something that right. But like isn't there still like a trust or something like that that manages his manages, manages his publishing endeavors? Yeah, I believe so. All his books are still out there in one form or another, but you know, even though at times or stuffy there other times where it does just read like pure psychot-. Poetry. Yeah, he, he's, he's taking all this these tools, and he's trying to figure out what the self is. What consciousness is, what are the limits of consciousness? And at times it's beautiful. And at times it's it's very difficult neyla. Nate. And so this gets us into the lily phase that I have the hardest time identifying with up until this point I'm on board. You know, I'm interested in what he's doing interested in his findings even when it comes to like, you know, a. A masturbating dolphin and taking LSD to try to telepathically communicate with them like a interested, but then we get into, I guess it's the echo phase. This is where by the way, like connected to the echo, the dolphin video game. It's not echo e c. h. o. e. c. c. because it's an acronym. Oh yes. Earth coincidence, control office. Yeah. So this is coming about in in the seventies, really, but you see the the roots of it back as far as nineteen sixty two. Okay. With his counterculture celebrity status, he attracted a lot of peers. Followers hangers on from all corners, including some of the day's most brilliant freethinking minds such as a young, Carl Sagan for interesting. Okay. And by sixty two, he organized the order of the dolphin and served as grand dolphin. And it's important to note that this was I kind of think of this is kind of like it's kind of like. A tool album. It's it's serious, but it's also not that serious performance art, certain amount of performance art. There's a certain amount of goo free, but then they're also some serious undertones as well. So this involves astrophysicist radio, astronomers, atmospheric chemists. Computer engineers. And they even apparently have special special pins that they would wear man. Imagine if we could get a hold of some of those pins pretty penny on EBay? Yes, sir. Someone onto one of his ads, one of his skin hats. Yeah, it was a apparently a little engrave dolphin. Eventually, a lot of is more Sifi oriented ideas come out of this period as well. Yeah, and again, like I'm I'm not one hundred percent. Sure that lily actually believed this stuff, right? I think it's we need to cover it in order to sort of get the full lily picture here. Right? I get the feeling that this is sort of him like, yeah, performance art, maybe creating living metaphors in order to somehow communicate his ideas out to people. Right? Like the more absurd and spectacular. The idea, the more attention it's possibly gonna get. Yeah. I mean a literal interpretation of some of these things we're talking about here of his later ideas and writing it. It seemed too simple. Such a complex individual, especially when we look at what lily himself wrote about as early writings in particular in the nineteen seventy-two forward to reprint of programming. Meta pony in bene- programming in the human bio computer. He said, I had written the report in such a way that it's basic messages were hidden behind a heavy long introduction designed to stop the casual reader. Apparently once word got out this device, no longer stall the interested readers somehow the basic messages were important enough to enough readers so that the work acquired unexpected of ability. So he's al- he's already talking that stage about a kind of coded nature to his work that that he's hiding ideas that he's in these layering these ideas. So it seems, yeah, in light of that, it seems a bit counterintuitive to say that, for instance, when he's talking about the threat of a solid state intelligence that he's Li speaking. Literally, yeah. I mean, we have to remember back up like this is a guy who's whole purpose in life was human consciousness and connecting human consciousness to other consciousnesses, right and language. He's fully aware that language is the best way that we're doing that now in the ways to manipulate it in order to sort of best. I guess you could almost look at it as a tool of rhetoric in order for him to get his ideas across. But yeah, let's back up with the solid state in the echo stuff. So this is this is pretty out there like he posits that there's like an alien intelligence that's kind of in control of everything, right. Yeah, this is where we get into that doing this idea that there's a hierarchy of coincidence, control offices at the earth level solar level, galactic cosmic. So again, it's where we get to echo right earth coincidence control offices. And these are essentially serving the same purpose of guide as controlling intelligence in the universe. This is really, this is lily turning to two notions of spirituality, lily thinking about God and putting his own spin on what God would be in his worldview. Yeah, yeah. And it's not that far off from like other thinking like Philip k dick for definitely like he's a writing around the same period of time. So it's not that far off. I can imagine that lily would maybe pick up something like Vallis like, okay, maybe this is a cool idea for me to get my ideas of consciousness across now that the navy's pulled my funding yet. He also alluded to earlier he prophesized a future conflict between organic intelligence, machine intelligence, which he referred to as the solid state intelligence or SSI. So specifically he said this would be a conflict over ideal environmental conditions for either humans or the sort of SSI created bio forms that crave cold and vacuums. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean in. Then along this period of time to is when he envisions what I was telling you about earlier, which I thought was where the apartment thing was going, but he called it the future communications laboratory and he called it a floating living room. And the idea was that this is where humans and dolphins would come to connect some imagining something like along the lines of like SeaWorld type thing that's less imprisoning to the dolphins, right where the dolphins can kind of come up in interact with human beings and so that that ideas like along those same lines, I guess. But we have to remember to nineteen seventy-two same time. He's, he's, he's getting into this real weird stuff. Lillies pivotal to establishing the marine mammal Protection Act within the United States government at, you know, I mean, he's grounded, he's actually effecting change in in how human beings are connecting with dolphins, but he's also, you know, experimenting with some of this other stuff. I have to say, just like backing up and looking at the big picture. Here. I think he was having a laugh, you know, or or maybe just trying to use some really out there ideas in order to draw attention to his more grounded philosophy. Yeah, he's more of a mystical philosopher dreamer and to a certain extent trickster you can't wear Coon skin cap. And expect to be taking taking one hundred percent seriously. You're kind of winking at the audience that point, but, but to your point. Yeah, he, he was a was a major proponent of not only the the, the intelligence value of dolphins, but there and Wales but their their rights as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he believed that killing whales and dolphins was as immoral as killing other human beings, and they should be protected by law and human should understand them as sentient beings. As one of the big quotes that I saw pop up from him over and over and over again about dolphins. He said they are not someone to kill, but someone to learn from, and I think you see that in at least we're not quite there yet, obviously. But I mean, like think of all of the protests over the last couple decades about like dolphins getting killed in tuna traps, right? Like that kind of thought about dolphins would not have been possible without lily indeed. So they have. John C, Lilly, hopefully a much more complete picture of the man and his work, his seriousness, his mad, his his, his imagination, and his just, you know, intense hyperfocused intellect, certainly more so than we've been able to do in previous episodes. Yeah. So you know, I would love to hear from people out there who've maybe got some. It seems like there's just such a wide array of resources about lily. Is there something that we missed here or is there more to the story maybe know something about echo that we don't know. Maybe you've been in touch with solid state intelligence, you know you can talk to us on Facebook, Twitter and tumbler were all those platforms. And of course, the best way to get in touch with us is directly at our Email address which is blow the mind at how stuff works dot com. Now, most of you are used to the show ending right there. We usually end it right after dot com, but we're going to end a little differently today, right? Robert, you. Particular Jim, that we're going to add the episode. That's why we're going to close it out with the art department, track the agent off of the two thousand fourteen album. Natural selection from number nineteen music there in. Oh one, nine music on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. This is really cool. Track. Ended includes samples from John c. lilies lecture through the center of the Mandola. One problem exist. Is the tendency to repeat. Repeat. For more on this and thousands of other topics visit how stuff works dot com. Hello. I'm Anna Marie, and I'm Laurin Vogel bomb and our show foodstuff all about these history and culture. Food entering is relaunching as saver re along with our super producer Dilling Fagin are hitting the road to find stories behind all the things we like to eat and drink. We will be talking to the culinary creators and eaters of the world to get to the bottom of why we like what we like and how we can find more of those things. On our first trip, we went to Asheville North Carolina, a city that pulled itself out of a seventy year economic depression with beer and food. New episodes will be coming out Wednesday and Friday on apple podcasts.
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Louis C(old ta)K(es), Twinning App Makes Dystopia Fun 1.3.19
In episode 301, Jack and special guest host Ever Mainard are joined by comedian Jenny Zigrino to discuss Kanye West and Kim Kardashian expecting baby number four, Kanye's anger at Drake, Louis CK's new problematic comedy set, Popsugar's Twinning app leaking people's photos, Trump's pseudo-press conference, Mitt Romney's op-ed in The Washington Post, what movies predicted about 2019, and more! FOOTNOTES:1. Kanye West Slams Drake (Again) for Following Kim Kardashian on Instagram: ‘I Feel a Public Apology in Order’2. Kim Kardashian West is expecting baby No. 4 via surrogate3. Louis C.K. Mocks Parkland School Shooting Survivors in Recent Set4. Yes. Every idiot saying “Uh, this is what Louie’s material has always been like, he’s not doing anything different now” is missing the point.5. Popsugar’s Twinning app was leaking everyone’s uploaded photos6. Trump's chaotic post-midterms press conference – video highlights7. Poll: Iowa Republicans Would Reelect Trump, But They’d Also Welcome a Primary8. Trump’s International Ratings Remain Low, Especially Among Key Allies9. Mitt Romney: The president shapes the public character of the nation. Trump’s character falls short.10. 'They're coming:' Flying cars may appear in urban skies by 202311. Sheep-Human Hybrids Made in Lab—Get the Facts12. 6 THINGS MOVIES PREDICT WILL HAPPEN IN 201913. The 2020 Tokyo Olympics Were Predicted 30 Years Ago by Akira 14. Bob Einstein Dies: ‘Curb Your Enthusiasm’ Actor Who Also Played Super Dave Osborne Was 7615. WATCH: Amber Mark - Lose My Cool (Franc Moody Remix)Learn more about advertising on the HowStuffWorks podcasts at www.howstuffworks.com/advertisers.htmAnd to learn about your ad choices when listening to podcasts, visit https://www.howstuffworks.com/privacy.htm#ad-choices
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