20 Episode results for "Bunkerville"

Who Is That Clown - Hal Herring (Part Two)

Seek Outside Podcast

34:46 min | 7 months ago

Who Is That Clown - Hal Herring (Part Two)

"Um My daughter was with me and we had seen these L. far off and we thought they were heading for that passed. My son was with us. But he's he's he's way better than I am now and he disappeared and so we got up there above that pass and we were watching and there was a guy in orange with an orange vest down there and I said Damn who is at clown you know. He's like he wasn't. He didn't come in here from. Where did you come from? And we were dogging on this person who is sitting there. He too close to pass. He was doing everything wrong and my daughter was like. Yeah you think that clown is and of course. It was my son who outrun us? One hundred times faster than week ago and hit established himself exactly in the right place as though ideas. I just think of that all the time when I when I'm dicit on people that I run into you know because I don't want them on talking hunting now right Let's Kinda pull in a little conservation thing if this thing goes on for however long. Washington's closed some public land's Idaho's tried to say hey like unless you already have a Tag. Don't come here for. Spring Bear Turkey right What do you think you know an I? I went the last couple of years to Alaska. Salmon fishing love. Yeah Yeah And I plan on going a Caribou hunt this year which. I'm not really sure if that's going to happen either right. I mean if I if I have to go last gun immediately. Fourteen day quarantine. That's probably not gonna make it feasible thinking about the Idaho. Spring bear in Turkey was like. I don't know how you do it if you gotta show up in quarantine fourteen days before you can head out. I mean it's pretty boring especially when places aren't renting out hotels in so you griot tent. Yeah no maybe and then then. How do you prove that you've quarantined? But how do you think this is GonNa change like some of the hunting and fishing if this continues on through the fall I know from our business perspective? Sales have been strong for some of. That's yeah probably done prepping many. I'm sure a lot of people wish that they were more had practice a little more right. Yeah but at the same time. It's like what does hunting season look like. I mean I live in an OTC unit which sometimes is really hard to get away from people. You go you can go the most remote spot and find. There's eight people there that year. You know no mountains like any you guys all WanNa Pack Anelka from here. That's crazy right. But how's that going to change? I mean if there's if there's no real out of state hunters here yeah. I mean the hunting an and entirely different in this unit. Yeah I think that it's going to. I think that that the out of state thing is going to be with us for a while. I don't know if it'll be with us in November or October but hopefully not but if it is then I think we're just GonNa all have to make adjustments until this burn through There's some of that will also depend on whether people are all work because I notice a lot of people fishing right now around in remote places here and that that's because they're not working you know one on the back. I can trip a couple of weeks ago and there were a lot of people out there. Yeah Kinda surprised but I was like you know the they're saying hey it's okay to go for a hike and hiking a good thing to do or whatever and the like about half. The people really didn't hike that much you know they were relatively new to it so I mean getting people engaged. That's a good thing. Yeah it is. Yeah we had a guy run into a grizzly bear up into your day before yesterday. I guess and got got beat up kind of bad. And then he was out hiking and so that was kind of a big deal because he shot the bear with a pistol and then the fishing game common. They hunted the bear now and they finally they had to euthanize it because it was wounded. But I mean do like how do you deal with stuff like that? There's more people in the mountains. You know nothing good thing. I think that's just something that's like. That's okay like that's that's where we're at you know will. There's more people in the mountains in certain areas. I mean if the travel if if the if the tourist can't travel to the more destination places where I won't be as many people but perhaps the animals don't feel as pressured near as much out like yeah like the L. Were I live elk? Used to hang out in this one spot Quite frankly I don't want I don't want to sound like it wasn't extreme but I mean it was. You could guarantee there was Okinawan. If you're in shape I could hike into their in about forty five minutes or an hour. Right Good Yeah. Which was which was good but elk really. Haven't been there for about five years right and because one day I was hunting I was hunting season there and I looked down into that drainage and accounted sixteen people I was like all these people come from right. Yeah it was maybe eight years ago or something and now. I mean it's a rarity you see a few L. trickle just in into this wilderness area and that's about it most of them are hanging out in these hell holes that you know crazy to shoot women so yeah. I have question for you. What what do you think accounted for? The sudden uptick in people in that one spot A few things though I was guys like Stephen Randy right exposing style of hunting right and and and the adult onset hunting right. Yeah I know I know in my neighborhood. there's a lot of extreme more extreme mountain athletes yum and a lot of them. Probably you know. A lot of them took a punting probably seven to eight nine years ago right and started saying you know so. I think there's a little bit of a cross fit component because cross fit pushes more of a Paleo lifestyle. And then when when you get into Paleo it says no don't go to Walmart and get your burger yellow if you're if you can eat high quality salmon or quality game meat. That's a much better choice so I also think the other thing is social media right I mean you. You didn't use used to take a photo with your with your camera with your film camera. Yeah and you you you would just kind of would be your photo you. It may be it up and put it on your wall or if you're a photographer you would sell it but now everyone Kellyanne Basically take a photo and in two seconds. It's online where everyone's friends can be like. Oh that's awesome the done a lot of times. There's location information in there as well and like I've thought like Two years ago Nathan. Who WORKS FOR US? Lives in Tennessee and I did a hunt and we had an agreement beforehand that we were sharing. No photos showed anything of distinction. Yup and if you took a photo you needed to put the photo on your phone and take a screen shot and then share that. Gotcha no so you so you tried to get rid of any location information right and then you know a lot of. It's good stuff. I mean like I know Nathan and I that year we were there and it was. We had a really good trip But that year. We're like wow. It's gotten a lot busier around here. Yeah the guys bill bhanot below me I mean I saw the dudes GonNa be. Ha Hat right. Yeah so I mean I'm like the D. engagement and all that stuff is good right. Yeah But it just also has a tendency to kind of FILL UP CERTAIN AREAS. Make you have to go back further and stuff as well? So yeah I think I think that's true it's just fascinating to me because it's Kinda like the ecology of the way things work by like. Everything's tied to something else. I mean we have bozeman now which is like this. Jack pump pumping out mountain athletes into the back country to hunt Montana and Wyoming. Then that's that's got. Its upside that. He's got his downsides. The upside is more people are engaged. The downside is you gotta run into. Yeah and and Nathan said to me on that you know. We were sitting there kind of. I don't WanNa say lamenting the thing. I mean we had a really good trip. We got two nice dear at one Alkan three days. Wow and we got all of them with him about four hundred yards of our attempts pitched right but he was like. Do you think that we may be partially responsible for this? And I was like unfortunately yes you know because you know we're making lighter and I actually try not to talk about our gear a whole lot on the podcast but you know analyst comes naturally but it's like well were let making lighter. Beer were making gear. That is good for the shoulder. Seasons when you have eight inches of snow on the ground and things like that as well and it just you know but you know it's good but it's a little bit of a double edged sword. I mean you kind of want to say it's great to get people engaged and get them out there as long as they're not in muddy hole right for sure today of being a travel and misanthropic and big person. I still think that the the the positives outweigh the negatives and I. I don't know how long I'll be able to say that because I don't know if you've ever read Jim Styles in a Kenya countries efforts in Moab and he just hates tourism. You know. He's so sick of it and all that stuff but I still see that more engagement in big landscapes. Nature bullet lands hunting as still see it as a positive on the scale omagree. It's hard for me to see it that way when I run into people in my spot or whatever but I guess in intellectually. I know it's a positive in the less constituent. You have the less. You're going to keep unfortunately agree with you on that. Yeah I mean it's hard to yours. What are these people doing here? Look at that file story that this little pass which it along fine and my daughter was with me and we had seen these far off and we thought they were in that. Pass you know. My son was with us. But he's he's getting dice. He's way better than I am now and he disappeared and so we got up there above that pass and we were watching and it was a guy in orange with an orange vests down there and I said Damn who at clown he's like he wasn't he didn't come in here from. Where did he come from? And we were dogging on this person who is sitting there. He's too close to the past. He was doing everything wrong and my daughter was like. Yeah you think clown is and of course it was son who had outrun us a hundred times faster than we could go and hit established himself exactly in the right place and so. I think that all the time when disciplined people that I wrote into you know because I don't want them. They're like what we got down there and solids. He'll we just kind of sheepishly laughed. You know like we were saying about you. Dan minutes ago who are clone cloud. And let's go and he said up. I said I'll bet he works for those outfitters down there. They don't really not hunt that much you know. He's like raising the wrong like he wouldn't the wrong places in a perfect place like our own dear flesh and blood. Oh that's funny man. That's funny what about what about you dentist. Are you running into extra people in your replace or do you have this secret spot that no one no one goes to now? I'm not GonNa talk about anything and there's never any people were go has just interested immediately. See People read in? I'm I'm one of those of only been in Colorado five years now You know I would be a Newbie as it were so I'm GonNa Happen Colorado kind of does it to itself to like. We have the most over the counter opportunities for people so you don't even have to plan a trip to Colorado you decide you know September thirteenth. Come here in hunt Yeah I mean it's just going to happen you know. Yeah where did you come from Dennis? from Wisconsin originally Gotcha. Yeah so in. Spend a little bit of time in Washington state in made it to Colorado. Yes slow you come from that Wisconsin White jail and while I culture one hundred percent. Yeah I run into that. Used to be Pennsylvania Michiganders' tonight so you ran into who they were like fairly. They were serious and they might be needed a country. They were obviously there to kill something which is in a good. What sheriff I try real hard but I I just remembered because they come from Matt Culture Yeah interest in. Yeah grow up just fishing and hunting as a part of what you do. I mean when I grew up I lived we had Ryan Lampard's on a couple of weeks ago and you know Ryan. Well his obviously a heck of a hunter but he also gardens and canes and does all sorts of things right. Yeah and it was like when I grew up I grew up in my grandma and we had this giant garden. I mean I hated the thing but primarily fished Most of our meat was white tail. my grandma. She basically offered between services for a quarter of a deer so a lot of around. She can't a lot of meat. She even made her own line. I mean we were pretty self sufficient in a study sore way in fact. I was kind of joking with Angie a couple days ago. That this whole social distancing and delivery of groceries. Isn't that different? Yeah where I grew up. Wisconsin. The milkman came and he brought Okinawa eggs and so my grandma went to store like every couple of weeks and just bought poor things to make things but the bulk of our stuff. Was You know? Milk and eggs came and we had a bunch of deer canned and a lot of vegetables can and a lot of it in the basement. You know we didn't really need to go anywhere. So yeah entrusting onset rather they used to deliver milk terrorists doorstep all the time like yeah food food deliveries like just the thing. Yeah and like when my grandmother's Day in Montgomery Alabama the they deliver groceries because many people didn't have cars it said there was a grocery delivery was berry normal back then so it is. I mean some of these things had been done. You know back in back in the day I guess you would say and now we're kind of partially reverting back but for a while we were like well we have cheap oil and everyone has a car and we can do whatever you want. I mean myself. I'm Kinda like this. I normally drive four to five hundred miles a week because I normally go to grand junction once Yup on the week And then I go. I've driven like sixty miles in the last two weeks now. Yeah that's US too us. To great falls is fifty two miles away and we used to do a grocery running there every like eight days or whatever and I. It's been our nets as we've been there you know we're trying we're trying to do what do what's right but before we get too far bike order. I wanted to ask you about the repor aspect because like there's a weird way I don't know what it is but like have you ever notice when you're thinking of something fields up in really strongly you start noticing it. It's kind of a Zeke geist in in a country and at that like the this like I'm so glad to have your tent and your stove right now and the stuff I've gotten from you. I when when my children were really little we kept a ee. Two five water filters in a good of course an ammo and all that stuff just like in a very large bug out duffle. You know and I'm not paranoid at all like general curdle. Jeff Cooper used to say people say I'm paranoid because that carry a gun I tell them. Hey Man I'm not paranoid. I got a super nice gun. You know I don't have to meet paranoid But we weren't paranoid. We were responsible for two toddlers and so we were by some definite word. We were prep irs right then and still that way and I think that that's a that's a current America right now. I know you're seeing an uptick in business because of that but like what do you think that? What do you think that's GonNa do? You think that's going to be a flash in the PAN or do you think that's going to be with us for a long time so you know I think that From my own personal experience because I had one young Tomor when nine eleven happened and when nine eleven happened I thought you know we should Kind of be a little more proper based right Yup ourselves and so we did that for quite a while and I mean now you know. One of my children is seventeen The other one is twenty They know how to Hunt Yano Farish. They know how to do those things. So we've probably relaxed that a little bit kick two years But you know when we first moved to this House. We had a big garden. We had chickens. We were pretty self sufficient right for you. Know going out to eat and stuff like that Now seek outside note we have. I know we have a proper business right. We get with some prep irs right and I don't mean like we worked with him like we pay to promote or anything like that but I mean I see I see preparez post on social media Outer tents and stove or prepping with it and we get approached by Properties occasionally want to You know want us to try to monetize that I know and I know that we've had people where they've bought the whole family like a span teepee and stove. So we're we're father's been like I'm getting my whole family. This just Seattle. They're safe right So I know that that goes on. But we've we've never when people have said Hey. Do you want to try to market to this guy? This guy? Everyone will by what he tells them to. And we don't we don't try to exploit it right. You know. I I look at this. Is We are a backpacking and hunting and wilderness. Adventure company right That being said this is a true story. Probably four five years ago. Had A lady call who was prepping. She wanted a teepee and stove and a pack and she worked for the Department of Homeland Security And she was planning this bug out thing right again. It Raises Kinda raised when when the Department of Homeland Security is calling you up and prepping right. They're like they're like I see myself in the mountains somewhere between here and this is serious and so I mean there's going to be there's going to be some and I don't think Prepping is a bad thing. In fact I know that you know like Nathan who works for us. You know I was chatting with him when this happens. He lives in rural Tennessee. Outside of Nashville. Yeah and and you know. He's kind of a southern southern redneck. Who Hudson stuff. You know what I mean so you. Yeah you know And he and he was like tell you the truth. I wish I would have propped a little more you know. He has not really a proper and I may have talked to someone else. Recently to WHO I consider a pretty good friend and he was like well. I'm not really a proper but I'm I'm buying more food than normal. You know usually try to adhere to our budget. But we'RE GONNA stash a couple extra months of. Yeah so I think this is making everyone take notice when this one this initially happened. You saw most of the hunters posting online. Hey I don't have to worry about my freezer where I write enemy. Yeah I have three freezers that are in use. Only really two of them are mostly meat but but it was like well who you know as a everyone's running around looking for meat. We're doing all right now. We have we seek outside. We bought our employees like two hundred pounds of meat from a local butcher shop and delivered it to him because bigger steady of grand junction which is probably not really any bigger than great falls like everyone had bought up all the meat. So Yeah Yeah. I don't even know if that was true around great ball because we had our made already in the freezer. We have to look for it. Although we did talk with a my neighbor ball a half a cow a half a steer and they went up there jotted and skinned and butchered themselves. You know for like a discount And I was interested in that and I thought that was a great idea As long as you get a good one we used to buy. We used to buy cows and we had one that was ono. What was he must have found dead car? One of them was really rough. The others were pretty good but yeah I mean I didn't know that junction willows. Basically to meet at that time either. But because I didn't need to buy any I mean we buy a little bit of Bacon and maybe nothing about it. You know so. Yeah you know like well cared for large talk get it. Yeah how is now? You mentioned that you've been starting plant plant. You know you've been starting planting garden and stuff like that a little bit more. We put a bunch of starts in which we used to just go to great falls and by starts I mean. We're Alliott where I live in where he lives. Not that different. I mean it's a short growing season and like there's a lot of years. Where we we get a pretty good garden go. And and they'll be these enormous hailstorm driving July and they just pulverize. We've had we kind of we garden. Probably the first five years. We were here pretty well. But but because it's kind of high altitude. It was real touch and go. I mean you get a freeze and June theon steak reason August And we are at the low part in the valley. I mean it's kind of funny like our neighbor literally probably lose ten vertical feet higher than us. But it's enough to not be at the low point. So if we get to twenty-eight he's thirty three got when we lived in a bitter. We had huge gardens and stuff and it was just like a very benevolent climate. You know compared to the far north. No I I would agree with in God that Missoula areas gutter relatively. I mean I know people think that it gets pretty cold and stuff and I'm not an expert at the Times I've been there in the spring. It's been relatively ent pretty good girl in season. Yeah Yeah I don't know didn't like when I grew up in Alabama. We had big gardens in. My parents came and eighty dollars. All the boats were so fierce at times we would lose entire like squash all your beans like in one fail. Swoop be now Texas kind of late that at times to be. There's there's pros and cons. I remember when the organic farming movement started a lot of around North Carolina at about four thousand five thousand feet because they would get the number of days. Were freezing cold to kill. Some of the pests. Yeah Yeah so when I ran into you at shot show yes. I ran into at shot. Show you invited us to go. Hang out over by a gold right. Yes yes and I know you've done some stuff with the Bundy's were you that you have paid a lot of attention to the Bundy's Yep so and you were you spend like. Wasn't it like a month at mall hairs? No it was really just a few days but the essay I wrote from there was based on following that and then I finally lost patience and drove there and hung out with all the people you know for a couple of days but I just followed that for a long time because you could see that. This was a movement that had residents across you think of it. As a Latter Day Saints Movement you know but it had residents across Jim wishes and whatnot which had nothing to do with with Mormon beliefs. You know I knew I knew I always knew that was going to be a big thing and it has been. I went by the Bundy's ranch in Bunkerville when I was down there right after I saw you and I wrote them on facebook and asked if I could come and visit but I didn't get it and I thought that it would be rude to just drive the in so I didn't meet them. I went by there and I went to go sell their cows and met them since I met ammon at the Mo- here refuge but I didn't really talk to Him. He doesn't really they don't really talk with you. They talked to you. Yeah I mean there's not a lot of discourse they're they're pretty sure they've got the world figured out so how do they get to the point? I mean it seems that they feel that whatever they're doing is absolutely right. I'm not sure how you get that kind of certainty in this world. I think religion has a lot to do with it but one of the things. Let me let me then. We'll give this really. I'm glad you asked just. Because do they moved where the Virgin River goes into lake? Mead is where their ranches and it is the Mojave desert south all the way to lake mead recreational area which is like forty miles south. And I'll tell you one thing but he. They moved to the harshest part of the United States. The hottest harsh part like the Arctic right and they Freak Hill loan there and they had a bunch of kids and their kids around and their bunkerville settled by these Mormon Pioneers and I think a lot of it is just a kind of perhaps Inordinate pride in in making it and like they picked up place that nobody else wanted. And so I'm I'm being maybe overly nice about Cliven Bundy and his family But they picked place that absolutely nobody else could make it or would wanna try and then they made it. And then when the regulations to protect the desert tortoise and and you know a concept of animal unit months on public land came in. I think that just absolutely infuriated them completely because they consider that they were in a place where nobody else could make it or would want a N. You're somebody telling them what to do. And I I have. I relate to that but at the same time the move but is destructive and they're being used by a larger Pravda's agent or state transfer movement if you went out in the wilderness and you just went out and you did say like a Dick Prone keep style thing and you went out there and you just made your own thing and you're like I'm tough as nails as my place. No one's GonNa tell them what to do. And then you get it done you have all your pride and next thing you know the tax assessor comes walking up by you and like okay. This is going to be twenty five hundred dollars per year yet and could see that. I mean I was driving. I was camping down gold. Which is incredible by the way. And there's A. There's an incredible trip to be made from the Whitney pocket. South to the lake made national recreation area. You need four wheel drives and carry your own gas well but it is really amazing country. L. Let's camped up on this this hill and you know the Bundy's came by with a truck way down below and a trailer. They're going out to rope. Whatever basically wild cows did they'd gone out there and there's not a whole lot to lots of cows around there is a desert. They moved to like one of the harshest places and said Oh. We're going to farm this ruse cattle. We're GONNA hold your race cap. They didn't come up with a melon farm in down there on their little piece of flatland I mean they only have one hundred sixty acres. Is I understand it and came up with this melon farm on their one piece of flatland down by the Virgin River and I think they grow really great melons. That's when everybody says. But then they have this kind of Farrell Cal Business L. Massad and they run them on Bubba Atlanta and they don't pay and they don't listen to anybody in. I mean I finally got like other. Americans identified with the Bundys they want to be tough and self sufficient and out there in the Mojave desert with the hat to you know. Eat when you're in your cubicle. At the Insurance Agency. And you imagine yourself wasting your life when you could be ROIC. You're probably on the bunny. You're probably own the BUNDY RANCH. Facebook page when you're supposed to be selling insurance bench.

Nathan Cliven Bundy Wisconsin US Tennessee Colorado Idaho facebook Bunkerville grand junction irs Turkey Alaska Jim Styles Virgin River Mojave desert Department of Homeland Securit Washington bozeman
Episode 2: The Bomber

Bundyville: The Remnant

34:57 min | 1 year ago

Episode 2: The Bomber

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Bundy Ville wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off in a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates just a warning before we get started. This episode contains mild swearing hiring and discussions about racist ideologies. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen it's February twenty one thousand nine hundred and I met a truck stop outside Salt Lake City Utah just after four o'clock the sons already going down range of snow covered mountains looms nearby producer Ryan has an I have come here to meet with a guy named Phil Keebler and we're nervous. uh-huh okay Keebler has been involved with the Patriot movement since Bunkerville where he says he ran security afterward. He started his own militia fifty seven year old. William Keebler is known by the F._B._i.. As Commander Manager of a citizen Militia Group called the Patriots Defense Force in fact Keebler has been portrayed as one of the most dangerous people in the Patriot movement according to the court documents F._B._i.. Undercover agents infiltrated Keebler Group and took part in field training exercises sizes they say keebler talked members of his militia about quote going on the offensive in June of twenty sixteen just a month before Glenn Jones flip the cluff family home in Panetta keebler hit the button to detonate what he thought that was a bomb set to destroy a building owned by the Bureau of land-management thought is the keyword there it turns out. His bomb was a fake given to him by undercover F._B._i.. Agents who had embedded in his group even before his arrest Bill Keebler thought there was some grand conspiracy of play and that for some reason the government was out to get him personally the thing is it turned out he was one hundred percent right about that from long reads an organ public broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. When Glenn Jones shot himself in the head waiting for his bombs to blow up and Panetta he took with him answers? Here's to all sorts of questions about why did what he did but by talking to Keebler I hope we might learn something about how right wing bombers operate and what they're thinking why does someone in the Patriot movement light diffuse or press the button and why now Keebler Jones had both set off their bombs in the summer of twenty sixteen four to five months after the mail. Your occupation in Oregon had resolved so what changed after Mao hear the vice here today anything smokes in coffee real quick keebler looks like a shriveling old ranch hand. He's got leathery skin. Smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures the two thousand thirteen I had massive heart attack and had to go in for Mercy Open Heart Surgery. We're at a denny's tucked into the corner of the truckstop for most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide lead with his own company Creator gator outfitters offer Georgia critters critic we ease into the conversation Ryan than I just trying to get a feel for who were talking to what we can and can't ask got it but it turns out keebler storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time in the army. Oh Eleven Bravo infantry went to a lot of specialized training for bed in when Germany I'll ended there and I think one of Friday Saturday morning I woke up on Russian Communist. Russian border says he also knows his way around computers used to do code nutrition. They can't break and they still have nothing. I'm in good anyway even says he has a black belt. In Kung Fu studied numerous arts frank black Belton four different styles <hes> an eighty ships eighty six hours before board of Masters and I presented a new system. He says he created his own system of kung-fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly Rambo wishaw and I should be clear. I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but I also wasn't in Utah to figure out whether he got third place in the Kung Fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the F._B._i.. But I that meant convincing him that we weren't f._B._I.. Agents people are afraid to talk to people like I'm GonNa be honestly would surprise me vote. They pull that I just went shutting what I've seen because in keebler swirled everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me story. Don't it's going to die with me. I've been on borrowed time for years. I came here because I wanted to hear Keebler Keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent. I couldn't get answers from Glenn Jones who police said had wanted to target a government building so I had hoped keebler would help me understand why a person will try to detonate a bomb tom but just a few minutes into the interview. What I'm really wondering is how did the F._B._I.? Decide to focus on this guy is this old man in poor health really the most dangerous person Patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part of Bill Keebler story starts in two thousand fourteen when he spent about two weeks and Bunkerville Nevada <hes> cliven Bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the Bundy's hadn't paid their grazing fees and the be Elim had come to collect their cattle. The fact that Keebler was there was later later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back then Keebler says he was a member of the oath keepers a militia associated with the Patriot movement and by his account at Bundy ranch he was a bodyguard regard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. Leave not actually stop a lot of people alike them play at their house Dotson. PEOPLE WANNA shoot people. When I'm getting mad rebound put down my face? He wanted to start the war too far shot just to get started because if one shot had ever went off it's done you don't matter if it was a firecracker backfire necessary S. where everybody's Oh my God i Hope Cardo have backfired you know or so might those down firecracker on the ground things with that cloaks volatile. I mean it was ready. I don't want to Rehash Bundy ranch but the long short of it is no cars backfired. no-one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the Bundy's cows were released the bill. I'm agents left. Keebler was pumped up and the Patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events in this country. Sorry this has in its history Short Boston Tea Party <hes> compared to civil war not like that but it was a wakeup call soon the following months back at home in Utah Keebler started his own militia. He called it Patriots Defense Force or P._D._F.. It was a group of a half a dozen or so guys the got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. Payment prospers talked a lot about going off grid about what to do when shit hit the Fan Keebler even showed people how to raise chickens rabbits for meat then a few months later keebler says he got a phone call from someone he'd met at Bunkerville conquer fill the void finicky. He wanted me to basically come to his place and give him the support that we gave the Bundy's. You'll recall that lavoix finicky was a leader of the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation was eventually killed by police at a roadblock in Oregon and that he was the cousin of Josh cluff whose house was blown up in Panetta but back then Finnigan was just a rancher in Arizona and Keebler our said he was building up to his own bunkerville style standoff with the beal end. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but I do know that around this time in the late summer of two thousand fifteen finicky was becoming agitated with the Bureau of land management so government has said has exclusive legislative power over these lands he was making that pretty obvious on youtube page. No none of these bureaucrats do we allow Kirmani county then of ever accountable to US Mohave County. This is the definition of tiered from the way Keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and Keebler the advertisers his supposed expertise military tactics to anyone who listen was happy to bring his militia. Come help him prepare for the confrontation that Bundy's we got there after the fact if we knew it was coming woman we could be they're prepared because they were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come just take all his cal but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for Finnigan's cattle records from the beal. 'em showed Vinnicombe only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven Bundy owed more than a million dollars crew over twenty years for the beal unplanned a cattle roundup that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop finicky him from preparing for the worst or Keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the Bundy's had done at Finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto the land where he grazes cattle and then spring a trap don't mean ambush assault salt and kill and shoot none of that cracks where thing everybody tries it added ship the plan was to let the be on the property and then use an excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out certain place when they come up to heal them. Cattle hello can't get up hill keillor's saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what I saw Bundy ranch or an Oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and I had to wonder then what they're going to keep them. Hold them hostage pige. Why trap them in the first place but before I could get an answer Keebler told me that another member of his militia wanted to blow them all up Brad Miller's idea was was just keebler says Brad Miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that killing Ms Cantrell to you're killing whoever's truck but Brad Miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass? He was actually an undercover F._B._i.. Agent in fact at varying times there were three confidential informants and three undercover F._B._i.. Agents and keep blurs militia so if you take away keebler the F._B._i.. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of P._D._F.. Militia all this time Finnigan Keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help help a federal agents by the Spring of Twenty sixteen federal agents had been keyboards militia for more than a year trying to quote take his temperature according to text messages between agents and on the surface. It seemed like a standard F. B. I. Undercover Operation We for the bad guys to do bad stuff and then take them down but the more I talked to Keebler in the more the government blocked me from accessing his court records the more I started wonder about what role the government was really playing in the P._d._f.. Militia between the two agents and Leonard Informant Dave became the most active you know they when we went down to Arizona to voice dictate for the whole trip but <hes> they were good financial support and we needed that according to court documents the F._B._i.. Agent who went by Brad Miller taunted Keebler this was the same guy who keebler says had the idea to blow up federal agents didn't unfinished comes property and he said that the Patriots and P._d._f.. Were just quote facebook fucking Nazis in other words guys who have a lot to say online but never take action in real life Keebler in response suggested the group do some recon of potential targets in Salt Lake City agent Brad Miller core documents say was one of the most active members of the militia suggested targeting Muslims but keebler said he didn't know how to find any similar offered to Google mosque trying to to a mosque. I and I said what you've lost your mind now. Look at Brown I said all of and you've lost your F- minds and I've mainly to brag as we were clashing there he said but what would it take. Why couldn't we so I'll tell you why you can't? I said you see that thing behind your of he left shoulder. Look for under the gas towers. You'd be amazed what's Indian things cameras monitor buildings eighty. That's one reason can't you know getting a modest place second. Look at the terrain and now starting to break it down to tell you know for you got look over and people walking out coming outside. They served in basketball. I said you see that. Those are kids. This women the children are playing basketball and shit. y'All loss again so the group moved on and drove past bureau of Land Management Office Miller suggested that they mail a bomb to it or use. He's a truck bomb to blow it up. Dude gone senile. That's feeling the Yin. How many people do you know what's in there? This whole scouting mission was going nowhere. They thought Keebler take the lead and blowing up government buildings but he just wasn't biting if it sounds like the F._B._i.. Was Pushing Keebler to take some sort of drastic action it turns out. Even some of their own agents were worried about that in court court documents their records of text messages one of the other undercover F._B._i.. Agents who went by the name Jake Davis sent to his handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open Pandora's box in a way by taking keebler to a mosque he might not found on his own. I'm worried about our liability. If he happens to go back sometime on his own in another taxed Davis worried about Miller's continued taunting of keebler quote. I'm all for pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas like when Miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car Obama to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in his head over the course of their investigation the F._B._I.. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the West best to Patriot movement gatherings they paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally in the spring of Twenty Sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal facilities ladies way out in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal building that he had scouted near Finnigan's ranch Vinnicombe by then had been killed in a traffic stop in Oregon over the next couple of months the F._B._I.. made him of fake pipe. Pipe bomb and then on June twenty-first Twenty Sixteen Keebler and some of his militia traveled to Arizona and set the bomb outside. The building keyboard pushed the button on a fake detonator the F._B._i.. Gave Him and then the next morning they arrested tested in cops picnic brought me and I'm handcuff misguide comes in and dressed a bigger shitting green on his face allowed Mr neighbor trying August. You're sorry Yes for two years. They had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants in two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert. It almost makes you wonder if the F. B.. I hadn't been around would keillor's militia have just kept on raising chickens cooking rabbits and being facebook. Nazis entrapment is very hard to proven court. <hes> the burden is it. I is on the defense rather than the prosecution to bring bring the case. This is Karen Greenberg. She's the director of the Center on National Security Forum Law School in New York City so I asked her about the legality of the F._B._i.. Pushing a guy like keebler you when you go to court or when you read the court documents they look very much like you know somebody was placed in the midst of this group was listening and picked up information that was used useful and unusable right and then the other end of the spectrum which is who provided did the munitions who provided the plot who provided the ideology who it's it's at hooper who really ran this. If you look at the active elements of it I just want to note that Greenberg's primary focus is international terrorism and she haughty groups ups but there's some crossover between the cases. She's watched and the Keebler case so so like is it common in the cases that you've watched like this that that someone all say like here's a bomb or hey. Why don't we google a mosque for you you? Hey how about this or do this or an in this case is individual keebler was like I don't know guys like you know and then we went and interviewed him and he said I guess I just got it in my mind. That's what I should do at a certain point okay so the F._B._I.'s defense on one is and it's worth thinking about because it's it's got legitimacy to it which is look. I could have been al Qaeda and if I could get them to do it. Don't you think al-Qaeda guy could get them to do it and it works with the jury it works and because what they say to the jury areas. Would you said yesterday this F._B._I.. Guy So maybe that's the logic to the keebler case that if the feds could get to Keebler someone with a plan and target and connections to a bombmaker could too so so he belonged in jail but this interpretation of the law is fairly new controversial the basic rules that they're called the attorney. General guidelines required an F._B._i.. Agent to have have a reasonable indication that criminal activity may occur in the nineteen ninety. S Michael German was an undercover F._B._i.. Agent who went inside militia groups in the Pacific northwest he works for the Brennan Center for Justice now but his previous previous work was infiltrating white supremacist and Neo Nazi groups German tells me that before nine eleven in order to investigate someone the F._B._I.. Needed a reasonable indication that that person was about to commit a crime pretty low standard. I hit most most F._B._I.. Agents wake wake up in the morning pretty suspicious but after nine eleven the Bush administration wrote new guidelines allowing the F._B._i.. To investigate pretty much anyone. Why would you want to investigate somebody you? I don't have a reasonable factual basis to believe are doing something wrong. I mean this doesn't make any sense and clearly what it opens. Up Is the opportunity to to target people who who you don't like German says that in order order to watch someone all the F._B._i.. Needs a theory that maybe that person could commit a crime someday in the future initially it was mostly used against Muslims but has broadened out because it's a successful tactic as far as the F._B._i.. V._I._P. is concerned it is broadened out other groups and my concern with that is your targeting. The lowest hanging fruit right not pretty much describes keebler the low hanging fruit after sitting in talking with him for three hours. I'm not convinced he could put a bomb plot together. He didn't have any targets identified. He didn't know how to build a bomb and when it's defense attorney found those text messages at the F._B._I.. Waffling about whether or not they were putting crazy ideas into who crazy guys head government offered him a plea deal. Even keebler says the F._B._I.. Got To him well. They was held bitten determined to do something and I guess I kinda. Let it get my head that maybe if we did something to Kinda learn road kind of like a warning signal. There are two ways to look at Keebler I as a man with the potential to commit violence because the F._B._i.. May Have given him the bomb but he still hit the button and to be honest. It's easier to see him that way day as an off his rocker militia member but that's probably too easy of an answer because whatever he did he probably wouldn't have been able to do it without the F._B._I.'s help. So how much blame does he really deserve whichever version of bill keebler there's more accurate guy were talking to here at Denny's is a paranoid man who thinks to the government may actually be justified in that paranoia at one point in our conversation. He went silent then told us that we were under surveillance and he based on us. Well okay. We'll be in watched F._A.. Or inform you just want bud. Did you see yeah for two years the F._B._I.. Tracked Bill Keebler and now he sees them everywhere. They're watching him when he smokes in his backyard goes goes to the grocery store. They're hiding in plain sight serving coffee at Denny's just to get to him. It's not every day you talked to someone who's tried to bomb building and I have to say for a while talking to Keebler. I felt like the F._B._I.. Had totally missed the mark and basically manipulated and otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent Jason Anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when I asked him about how he thinks. The federal government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government the state government would that look like like would that would that running their own themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be. The government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs. He says that the government can do. It's thing trading rating with China in Korea it is no damn business running Utah Georgia or Texas then he starts talking about how Muslims are taking over schools. You can't do pledge allegiance in school with now. We got Muslims praying and everything else in in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like Muslims I._S.. Keebler give me an example where this was happening but he just said number places yeah they've taken over host cities. They WANNA stop prayer. They won't stop all the American stuff boy scouts and everything make an Islam. They're out in the streets right me with hundreds of Alan to shut down hole rose in concert standing over mixture. Nobody erupts them. Are you serious badly tanks for about fifty rednecks before pickup trucks will end up. Bro Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best and slaughtering Muslims in the streets of America Erica at the worst and it's all informed by his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this is the kind of talk the brought the F._B._I.. To him I don't know tops now. They're dressed up. They got well. It looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms reforms in Iran doing what they want near there was a god. It was preaching Christianity to up there. He's been arrested. It's only Internet right now need to get homework. You think the federal you think the federal government is in volved. Evolved in that or you just think earlier it should be no shock at this point to tell you that Keebler is also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him and HE HATES BARACK. Obama thinks he's a part of some deep state plot turn America until the Muslim only nation but his the agreement that they put him in the president is that he would make way for more Muslims to be again in the United States. This was actually come out recently. I wanted to news some reporters. Here is made president of more Muslims. Yes he arranged to be able to like Soros is financing. A lot of a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia going on right now. They can kill a child hours after it's been born they keep it alive long enough. The organs to develop didn't kill the kid and hardship for parts at this point in our interview Keillor's looking at Ryan than I like. We're crazy like how do we not know any of this. I can't believe I don't know none of this and we're looking at Keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe this stuff at this point in our conversation. It was hard to know how to continue talking to Keebler. I feel like I understand how far down a conspiratorial rabbit hole. You have to be nor to detonate a bomb that helps me understand Glenn Jones to but at the same time Keebler is a big and that bigotry has clouded his entire perspective on the world keebler his whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias anti-government groups this is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with with author Jesse Walker to help a guy like keebler context Walker wrote a book called the United States of paranoia. I wanted to understand the rule that conspiracies have played militia groups throughout history. You know in the Cold War era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the John Birch society sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties from you know fears where all the the enemy is based in Moscow to fears where the enemy is based in New York and <hes> manipulating Moscow in the ninety s after the Cold War ended events like Ruby Ridge Waco happened conspiracy shifted again but in the nineteen nineties you lose the context of the Cold War in so it's much easier easier. Just SORTA see Washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the Internet and while I'm not someone who's <unk> who argues that the Internet made people more paranoid made people more conspirists. I I do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who had previously been much more <hes> separate from one another. You know Keebler fits this description description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for target for their anger he was in the army fighting communism. When the Cold War ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called Patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and Muslims and women and abortion doctors the bill and George Soros Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama the deep state? He lives in an acid bath conspiracy theories so ask Keebler. Where's all this going in his mind? During the Obama Administration if he declared martial law rallied me rarely around me to Lesser Central Command Post and we'll go from there we start operations at that point that would have been should hit the fan so what's the difference now. What's what's I think trump up declares martial law it would be more controlled manner? He's not come after Patriots Not Malaysian no now she there you go pushing racist. I asked you know they got an able. Keep got angry when I asked him. If this entire world shaded conspiracies government cabals it's really just avail Vail for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about Sharia law and evasions at the border how Muslims are a plague in Christian nation like America. He tells me I'm off base to ask if this all really comes down bigotry built his world around these extremist ideas. He's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when Ryan Awesome at different question. What do you think happens if the Democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges abroad? What do you think happens with the Patriots over? I'll bet off just what I'm here in seeing on the Internet all bets are off. Was I'll bet you off. You're bill keebler. A guy who tried to blow up government. Building who lives on a steady stream of hate from the Internet says that he's had enough. If anything were to ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks should be time to take up arms again. People are wanting retaliation. They want revenge. They won't pay back for a lot of things this abortion crap what had milivoy what is happening to our children what has happened to our streets was that Mirage schools people want retribution for that. They want what Shit Stop. I still don't know what to make Keebler. I'm not sure he can really tell us anything about Glen Jones but if you look at Keebler on what changed before and after the Bunkerville and Malheur standoffs the biggest differences that afterward the F._B._i.. Turned his world upside down pushed him toward toward violence. It's not illegal to believe racist things. Our country is built on the idea that you have the right to complain about the government so it's not really clear to me if the F._B._I.'s own conspiring to get Keebler help take dangerous guy off the streets for a few years or made a blowhard into a radical who could snap of the political winds change but what I do think keebler case makes clear as somebody who can be influenced into taking action keillor's. There's paranoia and belief in nearly every conspiracy he comes across seems to open this crack in his worldview that seemingly anyone can exploit. He's an attack dog waiting for a command. It happened with the F._B._i.. When he pushed the button and it happened was a little voice finicky him when he plotted Trapiel agents in a memo included with his court records? The government wrote that after keebler pushed the button on their bomb he told the agents this isn't about Lavoix. It's what he stood for. Four so keebler in Glen Jones make at least two people in a two month timeframe invoking finnigan's name as they carried out a violent action which got me wondering about how many more people influenced by what finicky supposedly stood four and if those people really knew what he stood for or if they had just as keebler might say read on the Internet Phantom seems to have this outsized influence on the Patriot movement because he died so why does some desk fade away and others become Cadillac for violence. That's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Liam <unk> Peter Frick right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin in fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda especial thanks to David study for his feedback on this series and to Denny's restaurants for letting US interview Bill Keebler there for three hours even if you're all all secret F._B._I.. Agents Bonneville is a co-production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please visit their websites long rates dot com or opie dot org.

Finnigan Keebler keebler Keebler Jones Bill Keebler Keebler Group Keebler Patriots Oregon keillor United States Brad Miller cliven Bundy Arizona Ryan Obama Bundy Ville Utah Bunkerville Bonneville
Episode 3: The Martyr

Bundyville: The Remnant

31:03 min | 1 year ago

Episode 3: The Martyr

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- bundy Ville wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help show off their small businesses even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates a warning to listeners before we start this episode contains audio Jio from a police shooting. Keep that in mind when choosing one and where to listen I've seen lavoix finchem die and die and die I can log onto youtube right now and watch finicky when it comes in spliced and paused and dissected by people who never knew him seconds later he dropped to the ground as the topsy shows from the corner. He was shot three times. Want those people to have again and again watched his pickup crash. The driver's door fly open Vinnicombe hops out as a yells to the police. You're going to have to shoot me. Then three bullets bang back dead kill back it up play to get his words sound like a nervous mantra started again. They come across like an unfinished sentence. Are they start start to threat promise. I always think I'll hear some new intonation some missed revelation but finicky. I'm always dies the same three POPs. It doesn't jump or Yelp just crumples body alive one second have you sack of bones dropped to the ground for eternity the next puppet without a hand gravity. That's stronger than spirit death on repeat. It's Finnigan is known own for and maybe it's because his public facing life was a blip twenty one months out of fifty four years from the time finicky marrived alone at Bundy ranch twenty fourteen to the time he died the leader of the Malheur Occupation Twenty sixteen only about six hundred fifty days past. He was a martyr for the Patriot movement made at the speed of the Internet from long reads an Oregon public broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. Bobbio then gets on the stand and he admits he was on a puddle outside street in Salem Oregon's capital city site an old v._f._w.. Hall there's no place you can stand not see the American flag or feel the nostalgic brand of Stars and Stripes Patriotism Assembled here and on the breast every person who's paid fifty dollars to be here is around pin it reads justice for Lavoix set on a border of American flag ribbon people have gathered here to remember incomes death as the program begins some hundred people in the aged crowd push themselves up from folding chairs the best they can curly-haired cowboy in tight jeans begins to leave the room and song. How's the room turns its collective body toward another flag one with yellow fringe they sing low and soft with the cowboy? That's why when it's time for the Crescendo Sing right along as the day unfolds it will become evident that this is in way kind of church is an American religion with its own symbols its own prayers moral teachings deadly sins and now it's own martyr. The name Robert Lavoix finicky or just lavoix is a hollowed one. This is obviously the third anniversary of death. The man on the stage with Mike is mark her to be here in Oregon on a cold foggy Salem morning he lives in Washington. State has been traveling around the country with Finnigan's widow Ginette they've been showing. Doing this movie that her made it's called dead man talking her says it's a documentary but it's mostly just youtube videos that lavoix uploaded in the months before he went to Oregon still. I don't hear anyone complaining about paying for something that they could watch at home for free genetics here to secure the legacy of little Vinnicombe. Her says he wants that to to secure the voice legacy. He also wants you to pay him to take his civics course after you watch the Finnick Movies Eh he runs a nonprofit called the center for self governance as he keeps talking. It's painfully clear that he wants me by his message to it's called Bunkerville but really Bundy bill right bill. He wants it to be clear that he's not afraid that I'm here or that. I shouldn't be afraid of him. I'm not sure or maybe it's that people should be on their best behavior because the media is here you oppose white supremacy. Would you please stand. You're against white supremacy. You don't agree with white supremacy. Okay if you are pro responsible government. You're pro government. You're pro responsible government. Would you please clap her keeps looking at me and my producer as he talks can't help but wonder how much of this performance is because I'm here if you believe that the federal the boundary between the federal government would does eventually become clear is that this is the part of the day they really want shared with the rest of the world the part they want me to get on tape. Were they explained how people in the Patriot movement aren't extremists at all. The people gathered here marker says they love America and what's wrong with that Lavoix finchem loved America's so much he died for it and shouldn't we all find that inspiring inspiring. It's a truth. This crowd holds to be self evident and voice. Life was pretty obviously more complicated than the simple story critics of the Patriot movement call Avoi- a lot of things things sovereign citizen extremist terrorists Nazi mark her says that the actual facts of his life story are being ignored purposely ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's an extremist based on that. He's a terrorist that he deserved to be killed. The story of lavoix split in these two really extreme directions. He's either seen as everything that's right with America for everything that's wrong with America. So which is hello everyone here would have me believe that Lavoix was a hero for group that wants to correct the record about him. They're awfully stingy with information when it comes time to show the movie about his life that's when the organizers of the event takes the stage wjr reminds us their security everywhere in this room and absolutely no recording of these videos copyright and so I might have to call security. I really don't WanNa do that. We do have security here as she says this to. The crowd huddle of militia members settle in the back and then a man with a handgun on his hip nestled in a leather holster embossed with the words we the people leans against the wall near the only to reporters in this room me producer Ryan has we didn't record the movie about Lavoix Finchem but I'm GONNA be honest. You're not really missing anything. Dan Talking is lavoix. We story told through the eyes of the Patriot movement so it's primarily concerned with his life after he went to the Bundy ranch standoff in two thousand fourteen the movie doesn't answer questions about how Lavoix came to believe what he did and how that belief leave compelled him to die. It's a movie about lavoix as a symbol for government overreach because that's what he's become to the Patriot movement. His life story proves the government's tyranny as a rancher. They pushed him so hard that he had no choice but to fight back when he did. They killed him. At least that's the story that mark her and Jeanette finicky are selling with their youtube video documentary. Fortunately I have better sources okay all right so my name is Guy Finicky so I'm the voice younger brother. So one of the reasons we wanted to come talk to you is we just haven't seen a ton of stuff about who lavoix was before. The world came to know him. I guess so we thought it'd be great for you to just tell us about nobody would have the dirt like a little road. The Guy Lives in for Dona Arizona this tiny town on the border with Utah Lots of films of called home for Generations Josh cluff the guy whose house was blown up in Pennock Nevada used to live here too in fact I found a newspaper clipping from voice baptism and saw relative that the last name cluff actually Baptize Lavoie the L._D._S. temple here. I have to say Guy Finicky looks and sounds. So much like boy he's bald and has the same sharp jaw and wire rim glasses. It's a little jarring at first but that's where their similarities seemed to end real Avoi- aspire to the ranching lifestyle guy became a licensed this mental health counselor a therapist by by profession and so this is this is the world leading work in but I am amazed how people create their own own experiences own reality guy tells me that he in Lavoix in their other siblings grew up in the northwestern is western corner of Arizona on the Navajo reservation. Their Dad had a government job working for the Arizona Department of Transportation as a kid. Lavoix was like any big brother if you could imagine the Batman and joker rolled into one character he was my nemesis when I was a kid home he he loved to tease me he did you know but as soon as we left the home home he was my hero. The boys grew up riding horses camping in the mountains and shooting each other with B._B.. Guns he won be cowboy from the fires but as young as a little boy he didn't have any cattle so that was my job. I was livestock. <hes> gave me a hug titan earmarked more than once guy paints a picture of his older brother as a driven hard working person who dominated every room he was in he was confident. Someone guy looked up to he says lavoix. It was the kind of person that wants. He said his mind to something. You wouldn't give up no matter what not started from an early age he he loved to play basketball. I Remember Waking Up in the summers. We had a old asphalt bad the my dad added oilcake from the highways and Rim my dad put up. I'd wake up in here that I can still hear that basketball bounced and the guy says even though Lavoix was only five seven. He gave everything having to being a basketball player after graduation. He went on his L. D. S. mission in South Dakota. He came home and married his first wife woman named Kelly they moved to a suburb outside Portland Oregon where they managed an apartment building thing had their first couple of children and the whole time voice plan was to walk onto a local college basketball team. He'd play racquetball every day. The guy says reality soon hit the void didn't have the money to pay tuition even if he got a spot on the team so eventually gave up on basketball after regretted that decision because he was never able to get a college degree you know and he says it was the first of many times in his life that I learned about. We're lavoix wanted to make something work doc but couldn't no matter how much he wanted it. Including his marriage to Kelly they had four kids and then they ended up getting a divorce and so nine months after his divorce lavoix got married again to a woman named Rachel they yeah two more kids got a divorce. After two years guy says this part of boys life was full of turmoil and shame this a human being okay he likes aid he'd been through two two failed marriages those deeply distressing matter of fact you know our our religious background our culture you know members of the Church of Latter Day saints we have a high value on marriage marriage and family and and he got a divorce he was first divorced in my grandmother's media family a big family and that was a big deal they him according to his brother La- voice ultimate dream was to come back to Fredonia raise a family he wanted to start a ranch to from his twenties to his forties. lavoix bounced all around the West trying to make enough money to start that dream I found addresses for him. In Portland Albuquerque Santa Fe Las Vegas near Flagstaff and all over Utah Saint George Cedar City Provo but every time he had to get successful at he gets sick of living in the city you try back home the when he did when you come back home he just could never get a foothold so they'd come back here and be dirt poor and struggle and eventually they moved back to the city somewhere away guy tells has the story was willing to do anything to make his ranching dream happened when every move away from home he he he do well financially just couldn't stay away from home and he couldn't make it work very well. On the ranch nine hundred ninety two after a second divorce things started to turn around for Lavoix happened when he went to a singles dance at his church Ginette Finnigan told the crowd about it that day at the V._F._W.. and was back in the day when line. Line dancing was in. I don't know if you guys remember lying dancing. Okay Ninety two and I liked line dancing. There's a lot of fun and I can remember being out on the floor and this gorgeous cowboy walked into the room and I can remember him walking along the side wall and then in front of us and he sat up on the stage and he just sat there watching all of us dance. I WANNA dance with him. They did end up dancing and genetic to keep him dancing but he said he'd only do it. If she answered a question he's I don't have any rhythm and he's GonNa tell you if you can tell me how. Many kids have all dances next dance with you. She guests six. She was right eight long story short two weeks later we were married so it was a very short engagement. Suddenly Lavoix Ginette had this big family they had dreamed about between the two of them. They attend kids. It's eventually became therapeutic foster parents which meant they fostered kids with high emotional and behavioral needs guy says it suited lavoix because of his strong personality he was able to control kids that other foster parents couldn't fostering also gave the family more consistent cash and that was a really key turning point in the voice life finally found the way that he could cash little things to get back home and start building history. The family moved to Kane eighteen beds Arizona. It's about a half hour from for Dona Records from twenty eleven show the Bureau of land management granted Lavoie grazing permit from October to May his allotment was near Tuck Up Canyon deep in the Arizona Arizona Desert near the Grand Canyon. It's important to note that lavoix was running cows exclusively on public land. He didn't have any land of his own and by the time he started ranching lavoix was fifty years years old. He's only been doing it for three years. When in twenty fourteen finicky I'm went to the Bundy ranch standoff over in Bunkerville Nevada and that's the other really key turning point and boys life well I was I was watching what he was doing and he was he was becoming more and more vocal about the progression of what do you call the ever increasing power of you know the government at all levels but the federal government was really concerning concerning to him the next summer lavoix went all in on Cliven Bundy's conspiracy theories about the federal government scheming against ranchers to take over their land and he started fantasizing about what he would do if the feds came after him to you gotTa Stop? It's gotTa Stop Be Lamb here I am you won't pick on somebody. Come pick on me my cows out here. You tell me gotta get him off. I'm not take him off. You know you WANNA WANNA play those antiques with other people harass them destroy their lives. Well here. I am you come pick on me. Come on pick on me and I'm not going anywhere but here's the thing up until twenty fifteen lavoix was in good standing with the bill he always paid his bills on time but after meeting cliven Bundy void kind of went from Batman to joker he became obsessed with the end of the world and started getting into political activism in two thousand fifteen he wrote a novel. It's called only by blood and suffering and spoiler alert. It's about a cowboy who dies in a shootout with federal agents. After America collapses. He also decided that year that he needed to make a stand against the bill and it's on this point the Guy Finicky says a lot of people get the story wrong. A lot of people say you know avoid okay was being mistreated by the O._M.. And therefore you know he was a rebellion against them because of their mystery and he would tell you know that's not the case <hes> they treated him quite well. The problem he had was he saw a pattern of picking and choosing who they treated well to they didn't treat well if they wanted to ranch or some other purpose they'd bring all all kinds of heavy handed tactics on you and push you off in June. Twenty fifteen lavoix wrote a letter to the bill and I got a copy of it it says quote. I'm writing you this letter to express my appreciation for the time we've associated together in connection with my grazing on the Arizona Strip has been pleasant association and without conflict but he tells them he's gotTa take a stand quote. This is not about cows and grass US access resources. This is about freedom and defending our constitution in its original intent. Even the beal was confused phone records show. They called him to try to understand what the heck this stand. Dan was all about and they kept finding Vinnicombe. Cattle out in the sweltering desert outside of the permitted grazing season lavoix responded that ranchers and other states were standing up against the government and he was going to stand with them by the end of August Twenty fifteen lavoix severed ties with the beale completely and court documents show the by September he was meeting with Bill Keebler about making a stand on his ranch in case the feds came in so that's four months from being in good standing with the bill to planning to take a stand against them at his ranch. You know so with family were quite concerned when he started drawing the line in San with the bill because I'm like the Avoi- I know you don't like bullies but you're picking a fight with the federal government. They don't lose. They don't lose look how many people you know they've got unlimited amounts of money and technology and power and everything he's like well the wrong void made up his mind and by January twenty sixteen he was all the way up in Oregon at the Mao year occupation guy was worried knowing what's going on just getting media reports. I thought things you're kind of crazy and I thought what in the world when my brother doing I want to talk sense until modestly over the years him the void discuss politics and they didn't always see eye to eye but when he went to Malheur all year he saw that La Voie was exactly where he wanted to be and I left saying no to my brother. Stay the course stick to what you what you know you're doing in a way it was like everything guy I understood about. Lavoie was clear for the very first time he'd spent so long trying and failing to become a rancher and then almost as soon as he'd done it we'd gone to Bunkerville and saw new model what it means to be a cowboy. It wasn't just running your cattle. Putting meals on the table was actively fighting to preserve a way of life carrying guns standing up to the government plotting standoffs it meant becoming cliven bundy whose motto auto had been whatever it takes cliven wasn't that Malheur so lavoix could step into that role. Maybe take it a step further. People may say you can't know things like this but I knew when I said Goodbye Oregon he he was gonna Die After. Don't ask me how I know. I was just standing. There also hit me. He was GonNa die there yeah so when I said goodbye team I really thought it would be the last I saw you had family after after day of his kids told them they all need to get love what was says. It didn't know what direction this was. He knew that there were a bunch of militia Alicia members that were planning to come in there and he wasn't he wasn't able he had no control those people coming in and he did not know whether they were going to push a fight and what was going to happen and he told us kids. You know it seems safe here today. It is gonNA stay say she can't. We just told you that that some pretty personal think for a second about the kind of love guys talking about a love that is so strong you can step aside and let someone get what they want most even if it'll kill them leaving behind daughters and sons foster children a wife a mother brother a ranch hard-fought dream after talking to guy I'm left with another competing narrative not lavoix as a Nazi lavoix as a hero but Lavoix is someone trying to control his on story. His life was full of failures basketball two marriages in ranching but there's no living life without failure seems like lavoix simply. Let it to find him. One Way to look at his death is as a way to wash away those failures simplifies life down to the last six hundred days when he stood for something and died as a martyr in recordings that were made by undercover agents agents embedded in bill keebler militia Finnigan told Keebler he quote wants to be like the guy standing in front of the tank at Tiananmen Square and that if he gets taken out and the causes the poor ranchers widow so he was thinking about how his death would be perceived even before he went to Oregon it makes me wonder if voice dream was never really about being a lone horseman in the desert fighting for way of life but instead it was about figuring. Away to die as a hero before we leave I asked about the ending of La Voice book the Hero Cowboy who dies in a shootout with the cops guys a master's degree in counseling after all so so did he see it as a suicide note story. There was pretty an ending of a cowboy getting to shootout with the federal government and gets killed and then here. That's exactly what happened to Lavoix. What do you make of that? You know it really isn't I mean he you know if you read that book. I mean there's no question that that was the person he wanted had to be. He wants to be a person who had the ability to stand up and make a difference. I'M GONNA go back to Salem back to the Church of finicky representatives of the Patriot movement hard at work making Lavoix into whatever they want him to be. You know what I was reading the voice book he said something in the book that to me just stood out he talked about how we're going to control every aspect of our lives from what we eat to what we drive to what we wear. This is true. After the movie finished. This lady took the stage and started the throwing around all these wild conspiracy theories about how the U._N.. Aka The new world order is using environmentalism to control everyone crowd is loving her ask Ginette and mark her about this why partner the voice message which they say is apolitical with conspiracy theories political rhetoric and they say yeah maybe we should think about who hitches their wagon to lavoix as a martyr but Janette victims wrongful death lawsuit lawsuit has a total deep state vibe to it accusing everyone from former Attorney General Loretta Lynch to Oregon's governor as being a part of the plot to kill Avoi- it's pretty clear lavoix wanted to be a martyr now his wife life is spreading that message so maybe the Patriot movement is getting him right the journey. The movie is taken over the last six months is worth noting it hasn't been shown at libraries or mainstream G._O._P.. Gatherings the media. It's been shown militias anti Muslim groups and prominent conspiracy theorists. We'll voice death is being used to make extremists more extreme and this is largely how this whole conflict has gone for the past past thirty years back to Ruby Ridge and Waco. If you think of those events is when the broader public became aware of the modern anti-government movement you can see this game of tit for tat playing out over decades the feds shot Sammy and Vicki rickie weaver at Ruby Ridge and they raided the branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas and then two years later Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City killing one hundred sixty eight people after waco the Fed stop shooting I and adopted more of a weight amount policy but then Maller lavoix charged a roadblock was killed so the pattern continues and that raises a much bigger question. Where does this go next how many more people will turn toward violence because they can go online and watch the void diet over and over again? Genetic is taken this movie a lot of places including one part of the West. I know really well eastern eastern Washington last summer. She showed it to a separatist religious community near the Canadian border if the message that she wants to get across about La Voie is that he wasn't an extremist weibring the perfect martyr to a place for anti-government violence killings by white supremacists have been happening for more than thirty years. That's next time on Bundy Ville Um. This episode was written by me. Lisa Tilly Peter Fricke right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Dang an anti Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda and a special thanks to David stuck eat and thank you to the Buckskin tavern in Arizona which was kind enough to sell us real beer when the entire city of Connecticut Utah Would Not Bunny Ville is a co production of long rates and Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please help support it. You can do that with any any type of donation bigger small either long rains or O._P._B.. You can also support Bundy Ville leaving us a rating or view wherever you get your podcasts or just by telling your friends to subscribe. There's a ton we.

Robert Lavoix Lavoix Oregon federal government Lavoix Ginette Arizona Cliven Bundy Ginette Finnigan Oregon Bundy ranch Lavoix finchem youtube Utah Baptize Lavoie America Bundy Ville lavoix Bunkerville basketball Malheur
War Church - 144

The How-To Heretic

1:24:18 hr | 5 months ago

War Church - 144

"Welcome friends to the. How do heretic? Dark. and Dan and I am Uncle Doug. And this is your user's guide to life on the outside. That's right leaving. Religion is the first step into a larger better world, but it can also be a scary world. Things differently now never fear. That's why we're here. We're your audio on coast with help. From good friends, experts in all sorts of fields we're going to share the stories and seek the knowledge to build a great life after all lonely at the one that we know of so you better make. Who? Well! FELLAS Hieaux here. We are episode. One forty four, which I believe is mathematically called. Gross Growth officially gross podcast and we've. We've always been gross, but this is now. We've got a gross worth of PODCASTING and we're recording on on Sunday the night after a certain event, Tulsa and I just want to speak on behalf of the entire podcast and say. We Love Cape. Abundantly Clear You name it. We love it always have. World needs more of it. So that's our official position. WELL-DONE K pop kids, those and. We don't like you ever for any reason at all because we love the shit out of you. So that set. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA talk about it? It's not going to be a k pop heavy podcast this time. Just two out of three segments are Cape Heavy. Right totally. Yeah, so doug. You GotTa Fun. Thing a little closer to home. Yeah, I figured you know. We've got such a bevy and broad menu of white supremacist to choose what's let's go local. Let's talk about. Cliven Bundy. And then I am going to talk about a very much, not local story. That is a kind of both amazing and distressing, and if you ever saw beneath the planet of the apes with these weird mutant missile church, this will make sense to you. Bright that researches. I don't I didn't. The terrible sequel there's like mutants live underground, because been a nuclear war. And they worshipped lake ICBM's. Per sounds much better than it is. Perfect exe- well, and because it's Sunday for me I'm going to give us a Bible story because that's that's how I do. Yup, he's going to tie in Bible Candy and baseball and it's going to be amazing. It's a miracle really that. You? Guys inflict on me and uniquely for the Bible Consent and. Never American than that not consent, but Candy Baseball and the Bible. Exactly and just so everybody knows we had a lovely listener. WHO approached us about starting a facebook group, and we had a little conversation about it, and so our friend. Listener Joe has started a facebook group. That's we're not gonNA. We're not really in charge of and we're not really officially part of. It's not an official group. But if you want to associate with other fans of the show, you can you can find it on facebook. It's called something. I believe it's the how to heretic unofficial heretic Kanye. Isn't that. It's something like that. Anyway. Yeah, look for it. It will Wait. I'm pulling it up. It's the how to her take. Your. or rather the unofficial heretic hang out fans of the how to irritate podcast i. believe something like that. Go ahead and search it out season entering words until it comes up whatever exactly whatever comes to mind, and another listener of ours. Vern is diligently working his way through our back catalog and getting Onto Youtube, so searchable sensible Dharam encapsulated segments of our show. Yeah, and and if you want, you can use that to only listen to your favorite uncle whoever that might be. Other and don't forget. We got merch all day, so you can go to the how heretic by website click on heretic and my God? The retail world will open up before you. vis-a-vis heresy. Laureus Vagina Dough the US like that so. We need to go talk to HR and while we're doing that. Why don't you guys enjoy the show? Mark Hello. When was the last time you? Just took over a federal building. Well depends on your definition of federal Dan. Are you talking about the sovereign state of Mark? The illegal US federal. Government yeah well, right the legitimate. Government! Federal Government Trying to stomp on our rights as individuals and as as People in a state I I am currently occupying the Free State, of Mark, which just off my bedroom. I have invaded that state. At least once you have and we need to talk about that. Yeah, well. I wanted to graze my cattle. What am I going to do? What sovereign citizen good times do you have for us? Well, your uncles, you know where we're. We're living through some tough times right now. so much so that that global pandemic may not even make it to the top five stories of the day. the main story of our day right now is systemic white supremacy that has been as American as Apple Pie since long before its founding. And how that white supremacy has been manifesting itself in the disparate health outcomes from the coronavirus pandemic on white communities and communities of color. And in police, brutality and violence disproportionately directed at black and Brown, people. This, Centuries Long. Calamity was once again sparked into riots by the killing of George Floyd. AGO The righteous outrage over that killing his lead to sustain streep wrote protests, and a truly amazing change in public opinion about policing in the presence in our country of monuments to racist past. That is that exists only to perpetuate it. So, it's been wonderful to watch the toppling of statues of confederate generals, the remaining of streets and buildings, and even please God. Please to the possible renaming of the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Alabama to the John Lewis Bridge That's got to happen. In the last week, uncle mark talked about the fact that we here in Utah have our own statues to a racist murderous trees and a slavery, supporting white, supremacist, good, old Brigham Young, and that's where we get to the sex crimes, but that's right. Let's just stay with the racial Chatham's for the moment. Well, it seems as though someone took your segment literally mark and drench the Statue of Brigham Young at Byu with red paint and the Word Racist I. That's a little bit stunning to me yeah. Be under so much cameras surveillance. I would be afraid on that campus to you. Know the, but hey, get on you, but you can fool Byu cameras by going in with a beard. Their facial recognition software goes crazy. Yeah, they think it's some residue from the first vision, so they turned the cameras off well. If you take your beer, does she have to wait Lecarr? Painting? So birds can be. He's as well Doug. That's true. Today I thought we could talk about what what kind of people in organization founded on white supremacy might look like one hundred and thirty three years later, so I WANNA be a little careful here at the beginning in state for the record that there are of course very good people who call themselves. Mormon. We all know some. Any of these people on all sides. many of these people are kind generous, and even allies to communities of color and the lgbtq community. Here's the thing though these people are good people because they're good people, not because of their religion, or at least not the religion that Brigham. Young left behind in eighteen, seventy seven. As his burst appendix slowly poisoned his body. Does get. People are good in spite of not because of the Brigham Mike Church, so for a reminder of what kind of a monster Brigham Young truly was. Go back and listen to uncle mark segment last week, or you can pull up a recent episode of a local show called Radio West with a author Joanna Brooks. Author of Mormonism and White Supremacy Brigham young was a supremely racist man before he became an unaccountable autocrat. as basically a warlord slash dictator slash Prophet Brigham was occasionally constrained by the ever encroaching American government, but within his kingdom he reigned supreme, and he reigned supreme for twenty nine years Bladder Putin's only been the leader of Russia for twenty, so imagine the effect of this person on this institution. Putin that's right we. What for Twenty Nine Years Brigham built the Mormon Church in his image. There were no fashions to speak of. There was no opposition party, no constitutional rights to assemble or petition the government. There was just Brigham Young, sitting at the top of every pyramid, civil, cultural and religious. And Marital Yes yes, and second financial financial. Imagine, the political and social views of the hierarchy of the Church at Brigham built. You can be pretty sure that they were no social justice warriors in that lot. The church that Brigham built was a hard bitten desert dwelling, heavily armed white supremacist cult built on child sexual trafficking, and that's true. So. What would people look look and act like in our modern day had they stayed true to the Church that Brigham built. Ladies and gentlemen I give you. Cliven Bundy and the Bundy clan and the. hijinks in the ballot of Cleven Bundy. I do love calling something that ends with the with bloodshed hijinks. Well there's not this. For subjects for our show, the body count is. Surprisingly low it's modest, yeah. And for a Mormon story, it's quite modest, yeah, well, and for a story of like religious nut jobs clashing into. A federal agents potus look. There are several points in this story where things could have become exceptionally bloody. It's a testament to the patients and good judgement of the federal agents, agents, and not the Bundy's but. Explain! It definitely depends on the color of the Bundy skin. We'll get to that. Yeah, so the title. The ballot of Cliven Bundy was of course coined by Stephen Colbert back in April of two thousand, fourteen on his show the Colbert poor. Right in the middle of the first armed bundy standoff with federal with the federal government, but before the second armed bundy standoff with the federal government that led directly and perhaps inevitably to a sovereign citizen, waggling giant Dildo in a bird sanctuary. Journey angrily. Is there another way to wagle a Dildo? That's for patrons only. Right. So cliven Bundy was born in. Las Vegas in Nineteen forty-six. For those of you who don't know in one of life's starkest yet. Most pointless ironies Las Vegas was originally settled by Mormons. Bundy was. Born a Devout Mormon to devout Mormon parents, and he was raised in the most conservative part of a conservative religion, think of the bull's eye in a dartboard, but in this case dartboard where every ring is white yet think if you basically. Born and raised in the Kaaba in the middle of Mecca. That was your house that everybody walked around seven times. That's kind of where this. Yeah the the area of southwestern. U Utah Easter. Nevada that Cliven Bundy was born into is kind of scary place. what the more and so if the mormonism that Cliven Bundy was brought up on is akin to the Hobby ISM, of mormonism. Then, this part of the South West is akin to the tribal regions of mormonism. A quick note. I'm going to refer to be a lot in this segment so just for clarity in the context of the story that's Bureau of land, management, and not black lives matter right although. You could replace it and it would still kind of make sense. It would be weird story. So as we'll discuss in the years leading up to these armed standoffs, beal trucks were repeatedly shot at and beal officers took to travelling this area in groups. this is how dangerous area was if you've ever driven from Salt Lake. City to Vegas, you've driven through this region. In fact the tractive desert right after you leave Mesquite is the town of Bunkerville where cliven grew up. Where much of our takes place. If you're a person of color or have an Obama sticker on your car I would not recommend taking the exit to Bunkerville no Cliven was born into cattle ranching which is big business in the southwest, and in many cases is still a family business, so cliven and his wife would have fourteen children to help them with their business to that fourteen fourteen children, and as of the time of this record they have sixty grandchildren. So when listen when you're win, what you're good at is hurting a bunch of wild animals from a bunch of animals from place to place it doesn't you're fine with a lot of? Yup Corral them and rope and Brandon and you're good, yeah! So as cliven grew up, he became politically rhetorically aligned with various armed right wing organizations that litter the western us. Including the Sovereign Citizen Movement the oath keepers the White Mountain militia, the Praetorian Guard, the Posse comitatus, organization, and the tenth or movement. there really are only a couple of things that we need to know about these various groups. They don't like the federal government. They really don't like black people, but they really do like guns so good people. A couple of other beliefs that they're mentioning. They believe that the federal government cannot own land Hejduk sorry. Did you feel like you're going to have to prove that? They don't let like black people? If you'RE GONNA. Make me do the work. I'll get there to work. It's a stretch, okay? They don't think the the federal government can own land, and they think that the highest law enforcement arm of the government is a local sheriff, so they're. They're those. Out On, what would they base the idea that the federal government can't own land that Well it. I don't actually know the answer to that because in the constitution. It says it can yeah, that's what I'm saying like. It just seems like they're just making that part up. And this hey, seed wrote around famously with a copy of the constitution in his shirt pocket, always always poke shirt Bach. Yeah, and and I. Do I do happen to have some knowledge of where the the sheriff's thing comes from Doug if you're if you're not sure about it. It's in the magner a line in the MAGNA Carta. About the MAGNA, fucking. Carter guys even our founding document right right in the MAGNA Carta. There is something about the authority of the sheriff. And I in. Futile. I imagine the sheriff was probably the highest local law enforcement person for huge areas so somehow they've taken that language from the Magna Carta and just. Hidden the constitution under it for some I. Don't exactly know why. The truth. and. The truth is the as with all religious believers and stuff. What you do is you take the documents that sound like you like them? And then you only believe the things that you want to believe about them. Regardless of what what the document actually says, and and you pick and choose and have fun with that. It's like it's it's like a little. It's a little Gumbo little. This little of that Magna Carta Yeah a little. Old Testament stirred up with a DILDO and. And the police can't pull you over. Well unfortunately just being aligned with these groups is not a crime. But not paying a grazing fees for twenty years. is you see since the early nineteen nineties, cliven had refused to pay for grazing license on Blm land. Why would he pay for license from a government? He believed had no jurisdiction over him. A little side note here the Federal Government Government has pretty much always allowed cattle ranchers to graze on public lands, but with certain caveats ratchet up to get a grazing license which lasts for ten years. And because the federal government charges much less than a private property owner would for this privilege. It's essentially a farm subsidy. Yeah, it's basically free almost. Beyond free because the federal government maintains the fences and the water ducts and everything that make that keep them from getting onto the highway right right and. You're absolutely right like unbalance. The these farmers are are saving money by buying these driving grazing licenses. But, cliven had refused to pay fees for so long that the some he owed. The government had topped out at a million dollars by two thousand fourteen. Doug, correct me if I'm wrong. It's like a dollar thirty five ahead. Yeah, it's preposterously loud. So just for context about how fucking egregious. This is at the same time. The. Total amount of outstanding grazing fees in the entire country was two hundred, seven, th, a two hundred thirty seven thousand dollars Oh my God, so cliven Bundy himself owed more than four times. What the entire rest of the country! And most of that two hundred thirty seven thousands or just, they just haven't been paid yet, right? They're not delinquent. Right so cliven Bundy is unique. And then of course leaving aside the fact that all this land was stolen in the first place or the cattle, ranching is terrible for the environment. One of the one of the reasons, the element administers this program is to prevent overgrazing and soil degradation, right a grazing herd of cattle, particularly near a water source can wreak havoc on the land. The. Beal MDX ranchers where they can and cannot grazer cattle year to year to to mitigate this. And then, of course, you had to have to add all that that. In nineteen, eighty nine, the federal government declared the desert tortoise, an endangered species, and so stricter regulations were put in place. Cliven and his ilk have been serial violators of all of those regulations right? You're not GonNa, tell me what I can Michael because some damn turtle. Well there there are videos and I I I will not. You know don't don't look at them, but I'll grant ranchers kicking those turtles. For Big to show him. WHO's there, so they're so clever? Their with their their fun little so fucking out. Of People's misunderstanding of how the system works. Every it's B. L. M. Land, and for people who don't know. That's federal land that everybody owns its public. Everybody, every taxpayer in this country owns that land, and it is extremely common, not just for the Bundy's, but for people who used that land act like it's their fucking property, Yep and that nobody else has any business having even having an opinion about that's right. It's a fucking nightmare here in the west and the Bundy's are are maybe not even the worst violators of it, but there you go well I think they are the the the they would let their herds roam free, often cutting fences and causing damage to the land and their neighbors herds. The bundy cattle were notorious in the area for being underfed, feral, generally destructive. Neighbors constantly complained to 'em, but both neighbors in the were wary of a confrontation with with Cliven Bundy because of his affiliations, like I, said nosy-be l. m. vehicles often returned with bullet holes. That's so crazy. This all came to a head in two thousand fourteen, when the M had finally had enough. And began to round up. Bundy's rogue cattle to settle his debt. This led to a small scuffle on dusty Nevada road when a couple of Bundy's elder children, Ammon and Ryan remember those names. And several armed friends, the agents ammon kicked a police dog for which he did. Get taste. However, the bill was outnumbered and outgunned, so they retreated. No arrests were made. So just contextualized that scene with what we're watching happening in our streets. Put out a call for armed militants to come to his aid and boy, did they? Heavily, armed militiamen from all over the West Deci descended on Bunkerville complete with high-powered assault rifles. SCOPES SNIPER RIFLES BULLETPROOF VESTS. And all the other trinkets that small man used to compensate for that one time in the junior high school locker room when it moved. I know. I don't have to prove to anybody listening that. Local and federal authorities act very differently. Depending on the color of the skin of the people are interacting with so just mark this as exhibit, one, billion, two, hundred and fifty five million. What what came next would be inconceivable if the perpetrators were anything but white right militiamen took up sniper positions on overpasses, and in the desert brush, training their crosshairs on federal agents in broad daylight on the news, several dozen horseback formed a line and charged the federal agents. One of their number of former sheriff named Richard. Macke said they were quote strategizing to put all the women up front. If they're going to start shooting, it's going to be the women there. They're going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers Jesus based. That's you know that's a perfectly. Standard issue way of thinking that Mormon men about more women. Especially in rural context, right? Yeah, there are a prop for my for my usage. and yet throughout this entire confrontation. that would later be dubbed the battle of Bunkerville. No tear gas was used no rubber bullets fired. No arrests were made and eventually the federal government back down. They start rounding up Bundy's road cattle. They release some, but they wanted Bundy to buy back the rest as a way of recouping something right so with the armed standoff over, but with the federal government still having several of Bundy's cattle. The whole thing just kind of converted into a media circus. cliven and some of his children were on them on all the major news networks, and were nearly nightly. Guests on Sean Hannity show with did nothing to temper their violent anti-government rhetoric, and in fact encouraged it. The this is this. Things got really off the rails here for a few days. The militia men with the standoff effectively over had nothing to do. So they started roaming the area and setting up armed checkpoints and stopping cars, demanding proof of citizenship, it was really scary because on percents. Living out the the fantasy that they had had for years which you know they were, they had been stockpiling these weapons for no real reason, and finally they got a chance to to feel righteous about the government coming to a broad blah blah. And then nothing happened being. What are you GonNa do go back to your job at target. NO RIGHT NO HELL! No all right so. No one was sure how this was going to end peaceably. It seemed like it was almost predestined to end in some kind of violence. And then footage of cliven. Bundy appeared where he spent some of his nuanced positions on race, and it all pretty pretty much went to shifts. In the footage cliven is giving some sort of sermon next to a highway overpass, and yes, it's as sad as it sounds. In which he says the following so. Trigger warning this racist Shit. He said quote. I want to tell you one more thing. I know about the Negro. So starting strong, this was not one thousand, nine, hundred, fifty, one, this thousand fourteen that he said this stuff. Oh my God! And he said when I would go through northern Las Vegas, and I would see these little government houses, and in front of the Gut Government House at the door was usually open, and the older people and the kids, and there's always at least a half dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn't have nothing to do. They didn't have nothing for their kids to do. They didn't have nothing for the young girls to do. And because they were basically on government subsidy, and so now, what do they do? They abort their young children. They put their young men in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton. Dam. Dam that is some upper level racist. That's top tier right there from. On a guy who has been sucking on the government teat for decade with fourteen children that is. Astoundingly, power. He owes the federal government. A million dollars doug a million dollars. And And I love the idea that black people have two options. Sit on the porch and abort babies or pick. Your right. Hand. Win Their Board. Abortion is a fun thing, right? We all enjoy. Bundy literally sees the world in black and white like a dog. Does not have color vision. I'm not done with the quote. There's one last little bit. He says Oh good. I was hoping I was worried done. I've often wanted to know what they were better off as slaves picking cotton. Family, life, and doing things, or are they better off? At Subsidy It's enough from you. motherfucker. Oh, no, this was such a racist atom bomb that even Sean Hannity had to beat a hasty retreat. And one of the only truly funny things come out of this whole sordid affair must have been the absolute exodus of news trucks and journalists from the Bundy compound immediately after that video landed. It went from. He was wall-to-wall coverage to crickets. It was like the big story in the country. Yeah! and. Hannity Hannity I think it had him on every night for at least a week. Maybe more than that. Yeah, and then all of a sudden the next. It was just color Mars relate. Bundy never happened Yup. Stephen Colbert has bit is so funny. He's like. Cool bears, playing a conservative character, and he's like I wish I'd gotten. Before Hannity really tied Cliven Bundy around my neck like some kind of lucky seabird. That was basically for the two thousand fourteen standoff. No one was arrested Bundy got most of his cattle back and continued to graze them illegally, and yes, he's still doing that to this day. Nobody ever was arrested or held accountable in any way for that shit there, there were some arrests. You're not gonNA like the end of that part of the story either though. They come down the road a little bit, though for for what happened in two thousand fourteen s that's and then the federal government was humiliatingly defeated by a bunch of heavily-armed assholes right to be a little fair after Waco and Ruby Ridge and several other incidents that ended in fiery death. The federal government has tried to take kind of deescalatory approach to these kinds of groups standoffs. To which I have a question and a comment. Why does not apply to groups of black people. And you know you had that all you were doing was in bowling yokels and they were inevitably GonNa. Try again right so and sure enough. There was a sequel. However in this case, the sequel was a bad was a sad and silly shadow of the original think highlander to. Most of the same characters, but way lower budget and could have had a better setting up. A couple of buddies eldest sons Amnon Ryan we'd mentioned before decided for their next trick. They were going to wait for the tyrannical government to come to them. They were going to strike at it I and where would be the best place to strike at a runaway federal autocracy the federal. Reserve perhaps the Pentagon. No Dummies Amnon Ryan. Lucas of power of this totalitarian regime truly is. A Non Operating Bird Sanctuary in rural Oregon. That's not. It's good to have achievable goals. Nobody said they're smart. They're crazy. They're dangerous, but they're not smart. That is true. Before, we talk about the actual bird refuge. Let's talk about Amazon and Ryan. Some listeners might recognize the former's name as it is one of the main action heroes in the book of Mormon. and this woman was also a man of action, although that action mostly takes the form of curing his a matt immaculately trimmed beard. Seriously these guys in their facial hair. Like. For Rugged Mountain men, they look so recently coughed. it's a it's a very metro sexual feel. As for Ryan How do I put this? He's not easy on the eyes, and his face has been severely deformed by a truck accident when he was a kid working on the families, melon farm. The story of what happened is a bit gruesome for the show, but the legend goes that father. Cliven didn't have health insurance and Ryan basically had to walk off a broken arm, fractured skull, and severely damaged motor nerves in his face. Yeah, so. No medical treatment and so now this guy goes through life with his face literally on sideways. That's right. It's it's pretty gruesome and to your point on Kamarck. Having been raised by a deranged racist, hyper conservative cult in one of the most remote parts of the continent, did nothing for these brothers I Q. The reason. They chose this venue to begin to topple. The oligarchy was A. It was empty and they wouldn't have to actually do anything to seize it. Just drive up and walk in as close for the season. Right was closed for the season. Nobody they're not. They're not even a caretaker. And be because to local ranchers. Dwight and Stephen Hammond had been convicted of starting a forest fire, and the Bundy's a to the Bundy's crew. This was going to be there 'cause. The hammonds by the way did not ask for their help and wanted nothing to do with with them the whole time. Again one of those things that like Kinda got started probably on some online militia forum desperately seeking anything to get matters. That's exactly right. Yeah, probably an Hmo or something right so that didn't stop the Bundy brothers and several other militiamen on January second, two thousand sixteen from storming the beaches of Normandy. I mean driving up to the mall our national. Wildlife Refuge in walking inside. Paths of glory. This was not. Authorities had absolutely no interest in giving these jackasses the confrontation they so desperately wanted. So they took up positions on all the roads surrounding the refuge and stayed far enough away that the militiamen couldn't see them. Leading them to believe there wasn't a police presence which was a huge disappointment. it wouldn't be the only one. The occupation was a fiasco front to back the supposed rea- reason for them being there, the hammonds disavow them. The local community was embarrassed by their antics and one of them on and the press coverage was less than flattering. This to the only lasting contributions. This occupation has given to our country. Tarp man and the Dildo situation heart man is my favorite thing. Ever I couldn't believe I. was watching that when it was on TV by the way tarp, man and the dildo situation was the name of income works high school band. Yeah, and it was a solo. It was a solo effort. Tarp man was if you haven't seen this, and it has a somewhat tragic ending unfortunately, but there's a reporter for MSNBC. Doing one is on the ground reports, and there's just a pile of tarps behind him. And all of the sudden it kind of moves and again, and this guy just lifts up this tarp that he's been sitting underneath. Yes, he's hiding. In the middle of like a parking lot right, Doug with you in a bright blue tarp. There and he's got a rifle on his lap, but he's sitting in a meeting chaired sitting to fully chair, but he's completely covered by the tarp like you could, you could just walk right up to him and he would not see you coming. They're all geniuses. These fucking pupils, so this character was Robert Lavoie. finicky him. He will come up in a few minutes, not in a good way. Soon after occupying the bird refuge, these dunderheads realized they had not brought sufficient provisions, so they sent out a call for supplies that included a mother among other survival, staples, Vanilla, cream and lotion. And the people responded. By sending dildos. So many dildos oh. America this led to an absolutely painful video where one of the militants had gathered up all the dildos on a table and there were a lot. They were a lot to show how unfazed they all were by this individual. He holds up what must be a two foot dildo to complain about how immature people are being now uncles I know I've said this more than once, but there is no argument that is not significantly undercut by waggling a two foot dildo unless. Unless the argument is I like dildos. Agree Yeah so incidentally cliven was in route to Oregon to support his idiot sons when he was arrested for the two thousand fourteen standoff ha funny. The police had to wait that long for him to go to an airport where they knew for once he wouldn't be armed. Right. So this pathetic occupation rolled into its fourth week when desperate for some favorable coverage, all of the leaders of the movement attempted to drive to a public meeting in a nearby town. The government decided this was their time, and they stopped vehicles ammon, and a couple of other guys surrendered peacefully, but the other truck was being driven by none other than Lavar, Finnigan, who stopped on the gasoline a break for it? Several miles further down the snowy road police and set up a roadblock finicky rammed his truck through the snow bank, jumped out and immediately started yelling. You're going to have to shoot me over and over. When, it became apparent that the police were not going to do it. He pulled out a gun and they did so. He was the only fatality to come of all of the stupidity. Yeah, and it seems like he was really angling for suicide by COP writing on, he was trying to get killed. He wanted to be a mortar. You wanted to be a martyr for a cause that didn't exist at well, and then all of sudden at that moment. He realized he'd left his tarp back in the parking, so they can see him. So. The Tarp is like blue screen color I think he thought he was. Taken out of the digital background so. handful of militants kept the occupation going for a couple more weeks, but it eventually petered out several were arrested, and some were allowed to leave and go home because you know white. Although cliven ammon and Ryan along with about twenty five hundred militants were in charge for crimes stemming from both the armed standoffs in two thousand, seventeen, a judge throughout the entire case against the Bundy's because of prosecutorial misconduct, so a really shitty way for this to end, yeah. So again to be clear, the sanitized corporate retail Mormonism, most of us see during conference or Win Mitt Romney speaks is miles and miles away from the frontier, violent racist mormonism that Brigham young intended, but that militant strain is still around over. Shout your now like the Westboro Baptist. These guys a taste of fame. They were hooked, and they have basically become professional protesters, showing up at courthouses and police, stations or anywhere there might be a camera. And with their long hope for revolution, stealing realized, I doubt we've seen the last of them, yeah. There you go! That's all cliven in his crew. I mean when when you when you realize that you're on arrestable. Be Emboldened. That's going to happen, not only are you unrest arrestable, but the government will back down when you brandish your firearm so yeah. Yeah. That's crazy talk. And because Utah's still a small enough place, I know someone very well, be very close to these people. And, he's like they're as every bit fucking horrible as they publicly present themselves to be. Yeah so. There you go all right well so much fun. Thanks for that Doug, leave him in the melon patch. It's move along. Uncle? D- In yes, you know what country we just. We never talk about anymore. You know because we're no longer allowed to under current federal law. you know that that that big old country on the other side of the world called, Russia. Either I've I've I've never seen it, but you have i. have and I think I. Don't know how you say. Go bigger. Go home and Russian, but I think that is the rich motto. I think that's what Vladimir Putin means is good. For A guy who's five to. It's kind of right. It's an aspirational name so well. Let's let's talk about Russia a little bit. Shall We fellas? Let's just because he really only five to he's very. He's very petite man, and he wears some very complicated lifts. Doesn't feel terribly secure about it, but that you know we don't. We can't relate to that any way with any leaders we might know. So you know the the three of US guys, we've all been to cathedrals right. And we've seen a few one or two damned impressive structures around Europe and South America Cetera. For me, I'm as much a lover of history and architecture as I am an atheist, so I feel just a just a little conflict strolling around these magnificent monuments to Bad ideas and norms expenditures of wealth and manpower in societies that. Might have done much better to expend those resources elsewhere. Massive Church buildings stuffed with gold and silver with the blood and enslavement of tens of millions of indigenous Americans and Africans, but despite some unfortunate HR and labor issues back in the day they're they're pretty fucking, impressive and amazing. That is the point after all is not. Well, guys, massive ask. Cathedrals are not just the residue of the medieval yesteryear. There is a brand new one that rival some of the greats in some ways, and no I don't mean mormonism is brand new, totally vacant temple in Rome? Our friend the actual President Vladimir. Putin has himself a shiny new trinket, and that is the just consecrated and fucking impressive main cathedral of the Russian armed forces with the modest subtitle. Big Red flags everywhere, not just me. This one's with the modest subtitle of the Cathedral of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And while this may sound like a New York Times architectural review, it's only partly that I. I can't speak for all atheists, but one of the things that keeps a lot of us up at night myself included is the corrosive and toxic effect. Religion has on civic government and public institutions, and how church-state collusion is inevitably dangerous to human rights, minority, populations, education, democracy, and an informed populace. Getting that. A where you're getting it from going way way out on thin ice with this one, so yeah keen listeners may recognize all those things I just named his things Vladimir Putin very much despises. Let's explore how this military cathedral is a disturbing development in the degradation of what little remains of any of those liberality. He's in modern Russia. It's important to keep in mind that there is a long tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church building religious monuments to make military victories. As they did commemorating the victory over the Mongols in the fourteenth century. The Swedes in the eighteenth century, and of course, the little known Napoleon in the nineteenth century. So do you really have to build a monument to defeating Swedes that just? They were. I would've thought when I read about. They've had a change of heart since then so Swedish listeners. Start let's talk about this. fucking building it is as I mentioned before impressive. It's an intriguing combination of classic Russian Imperial Ecclesiastical. Architecture and the size fucking matters maximalist modernism of the post-soviet oligarchy. It is I think the tallest church in the Orthodox world at ninety five meters, which is almost thirty stories tall. It sits on a massive piece of land that is adjacent to a humongous theme park. Dedicated to Soviet Russian military the. Russian military might. Just a short drive outside of Moscow. It's weird. It's like Anaheim where there's two theme parks really close to each other. This one you can get baptized at. The huge exterior is a lug flew. Right is really interesting. They could. The. The huge exterior is deep red brick more about those bricks and just a tick. and. The inside is a really amazing multitone army, green vibe, but overflowing with gold ornament, massive, stained glass, ceilings and huge. Incredible mosaics which are just a little bit problematic and more on those in just a tick as well. But perhaps most mind-blowing of all, it was built in just under six hundred days. From breaking ground to consecration, and you sent this that that video of it and I hadn't I I would have thought it took twenty years to build. It's huge and extremely elaborate, and it's so fucking impressive in a lot of different ways. It's a testament to what can be accomplished if you don't care about the humans building it exactly or where it comes from, we'll talk about right. Isn't that a truism of basically everything built before one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy two. Probably after quite a bit after. The Cathedral was the idea of the current Russian. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. That should also be a red flag. Probably with a nudge from Putin, who demanded that every square meter of the building be dripping with meaning and symbolism. And, so it is the towers that hold the build a. hold up the golden onion. Domes are nineteen point four five meters wide. Commemorating the year the second, World War ended whereas the Russians cow the great. Patriotic War, the height of the belfry is seventy five meters. Commemorating seventy five years since the end of the war that the Cathedral was originally meant to be concentrate concentrated on May ninth the day. Germany surrendered to the to the Soviets. But cove. Nineteen delayed it until this week. At the height of its the height of its lowest dome is fourteen point one eight meters commemorating the number of days, the US are fought Nazi, Germany, fourteen, hundred and eighty days. So despite being an ethical nightmare, this cathedral is. Baller it looks like the Iraqi and Temple where politics is GONNA kill five Rufa in the new dude movie. This place is so fucking metal. The huge tiered front staircases made out of and this is true melted down, captured Nazi guns. It's amazing. The four chapels within it are dedicated to the Orthodox patron saints of the four branches of the Russian military. Starting to you, guys know who these are of course starting out with course, Barbara the great martyr patroness of this strategic missile forces. That's. Essentially patron saint of nuclear war. Holy Apostle and they they call her boom boom barb- Barbara Boob. The Holy Apostle enter the. I called patron saint of the navy and naturally. Saint Alexander Nevsky patron saint of the ground forces. I'll include a video of it in the show notes. Wash it with the sound up. The remixed Russian men's choir trip hop. Thing seriously adds to the VIBE. Yeah, at that really brooding weird. Yeah, it's. It's very fitting music. It's perfect for it so now I hear you saying uncle mark. While the name of this Russian, Orthodox militaristic monstrosity is the main cathedral of the Russian armed forces. Subheading is Cathedral of the resurrection of Christ. The character in season, two of the Bible. Who is the Prince of peace? The penniless healer healed the sick and preach love and turning the other cheek. No, to which I say, why don't you shut? Fuck up about all that hippie bullshit before you fall out a window or touch it radioactive doorknob like everyone else. WHO's ever gets crosswise Vladimir Putin. Jesus of this Cathedral wrote a tank held a general's rank when the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank. It is maybe not possible to overstate the significance of the Second World War, or as I said the Russians call it the Great Patriotic War. To the, Russian character and culture. For Modern Russians the defining struggle of Russian history more so than the Bolshevik revolution of nineteen seventeen or even. The triumphant two thousand eight year of Eurovision victory of Russian pop singer Dima Balon with his emotional ballads believe shocking because that was glory. The video of that as well in the show notes I promise you, it must be seen to be believed. Swear to me, you'll watch it all the way to the end, and if you don't get a time traveling cocaine contact, I will give you your money back. I watched this video. Uncle Mark sent it to us to prepare for the show today and I want to live a life where I ended up in a white tailored suit with with no shoes, kneeling on a stage, playing the violin. I want I wanNA. Be that guy. There was a part of within an coked up figure skater just spinning around you at impossible RPM's. Did you notice something about that though that? There was the violinist, the singer and figure skater, and they were all in a little ring of ice that was about eight feet wide tiny K I don't even think it was I think it was. Some substance synthetic thing. Yeah, there's like a synthetic the whatever it was. There was one dude on that little pedestal skating on razor blades literally around. The pedestal was barefoot I. Know Yeah. I was so cringing. He's getting Eliza fucking toe. To Toe Something Russia Skater Doug. Your, that figure skater was one of the Russian figure skaters that was involved in the two thousand two Olympic. judge purchasing scandal that happened right here in good old. Salt, Lake City. He was an advocate, national hero, other guy. So anyway. Back back to World War, two. But for Real Joseph Stalin's Russia did eventually defeat defeat Hitler's Germany after I stupidly believing that Hitler would honor their nonaggression pact spoiler. He did not. He was kind of a stinker that way. Then throwing a generation of Russian humanity into an existential conflict with the far more developed and technically advanced Germany. While, Nazi Germany lost a staggering five point three million troops on multiple fronts. Stalin's USSR at least according to the Russian Defense Ministry and this Cathedral's designers lost thirty three million Russian soldiers on the single front with Germany. Hopefully. Why that number is higher than most estimates. And also does not obviously include civilians, which was probably an equivalent number. By the way, but if true, that means, there was more than six to one loss rate against Germany. Obviously. These were not evenly matched adversaries while Germany had highly developed industries and the most advanced military technology in the world. Russia had an ocean of land, horrendous winters, and an almost inexhaustible reservoir of poor peasants to throw into the breach. Along with a leader that might have been even more malevolent towards his own people than Hitler was. Right long story short they fucking one and on May second nineteen forty five. Soviet troops raise the red hammer and sickle. Standard over the ruins of Berlin. So let's cut our Russian comrades some slack for wanting to commemorate their unlikely triumph over the Nazi war machine. Despite Stalin's arguably equivalent missing therapy Russia used what Russia had available to defeat the world's greatest super power at the time. So they deserve a couple of point of order. The US obviously defeated. Hitler everybody knows that Azam Quentin. Tarantino read a book. I mean watch. A movie. So. But commemoration of a massive sacrifice and victory, and the further degradation of civil society and freedoms should not be the same thing. If this were simply the Russian Orthodox Church. Undertaking this massive effort, it would be one thing. But it's not that I remember. That was essentially commissioned by the Defense Ministry and built on its land in a giant militaristic impact. Right, so the cathedral was per. Project was supposed to be built solely from private donations, but the directors who work to keep the financing and budget super-secret. And, because nothing in modern, Russia's really what appears to be firstly, they claim to the entire project and you guys have seen. This video only cost eighty seven million US dollars. I suppose if it's four times that I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, it's a colossal undertaking covered in fucking gold. Built at a breakneck pace like that would normally be a five six year project. Yeah, yeah, that that amount of money wouldn't cover the ceilings. Of that no, it wouldn't cover the mosaic so. Investigative reporting also turned up evidence that the Kremlin has contributed at least half the money meaning this war church was has sucked up secretive unknown millions in taxpayer funds. There's also a lot of controversy about how. The actual donations were acquired. As it's really a military project top brass. It is a huge prestige project for them. And they've personally dumped in huge sums as officers and generals and according to the same investigative reports, they've also pressured lower officers to cough up huge sums who, in turn coerce lower ranking cadet? Some grunts to contribute contribute their meager incomes, leaving them almost any Louis. But if they refused, they don't get paid at all. Said salary in the Russian military is apparently solely based on assessment of individual conduct. So super corrupt right and remember not everyone in the Russian military's in Orthodox Christian. There are plenty of Muslims Christians of other stripes. nonbelievers being forced to pay for this thing. In a country that at least on paper does not have an official religion yet. Right so. Let's literally like the Russian government and the Russian Orthodox Church are so hand in hand lockstep like best besties and Hooton has a ridiculous notion like we talked about. We talked about other did the twentieth century dictators earlier in the show? You can get rid of a church, or you can just see it as a useful system. For controlling people and that's exactly what Putin's done right. So anyway big! The big oligarchs kicked money and those red bricks I mentioned earlier they were donated by Kalashnikov the makers of the most prolific weapon of war, ever produced AK47 and its variants, a weapon so effective and so fucking cheap. It's the gun of choice of the poorest of insurgencies and revolutionaries, and yes, terrorists everywhere. There are at the moment probably one hundred million in circulation in the world. That goes off. It's also one of the most popular guns if for in our homegrown terrorists. Definitely is the right wing of this country is is is a fan. So it was that Kalashnikov donated the lovely red bricks for the Cathedral of the Resurrection of Christ. That's the most rushing thing you will probably here today. So. The murals now. When you watch the video, you will see some of these exquisite mosaic Murals fucking beautiful. But photographs leaked awhile back of some well. Controversial images on them one of them being the face of the denounced genocidal psychopath Joseph Stalin. His face is on a banner carried by soldiers, celebrating the end of World War Two so his direct body is his actual images arguably not in it. So the directors of the project project explained him away as part of the actual history of the war. And he's hard to separate from it obviously so okay sure. But. Then there was a panel showing the current and likely forever President Vladimir, Putin and his Living Defense Minister Sergei, Shoyigu and the current head of the secret police, and even Russia's current puppet in Crimea more on that in a second. Okay, that's weird, but it's not unusual for leaders of post-soviet kleptocracies to build monuments to themselves. See Turkmenistan and Turkmenbashi for one Classic Example Right, but even long-suffering Russians found the mural. In. Bad. Taste in the press was really bad. And reportedly at the direction of Putin himself. The mural was removed. His spokesman said. When he was told about this Putin smiled and said someday are thankful. Defend descendants will appreciate our merits, but it is too early to do so now. Did he say that, while looking out over, you know his kingdom with a glass of brandy. I. Love, I feel like he was somehow communicating telepathically directly to his descendants. Wave me there is yet another bureau with a group of modern people standing around a banner that says Crimea is ours. If you recall the two thousand fourteen unofficial wink annexation of Crimea from Ukraine was supposedly the work of local pro quo, Pro Kremlin regular forces. But were widely known to be Russian troops without insignia that were dubbed the little green men. They are the modern people standing around that banner, so Russia already a very bad actor on the international stage became something more of a pariah state after the Crimean invasion, getting heavily sanctioned, kicked out of the g seven etc, etc.. But here they are admitting to The Hague's essentially in the form of a mosaic mural yet. Was Us. Fuck you? Know but with all the World War Two Stalin the ancient iconography and the failed. Attempt to get Putin and his goons rendered as heroic holy icons. The really troubling thing is that. The Putin Easter's are trying to rewrite or reedit Russian civilization as a mythic Christ a fascist warrior Colt with a direct line from Jesus through Peter the great through Stalin and ultimately to Putin. To, Fuse Church in state at the worst possible point, a nuclear, armed, military and an anti-democratic. Despotic failed petrous state. And this church is a brick and mortar is brick and mortar evidence of the nightmarish road that seems unfortunately likely to lie ahead for our Russian friends. Now if you don't believe me, let me quote the words of head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Patriarch correal. Concentration consecration ceremony. With this harmony between the might of the armed forces and the spiritual might of the Church of the spiritual and the material of Church and state. Let the path of our people go into the future in peace and prosperity and of this path, godwilling let there be new victories new achievements, and no defeats so here's the thing you can't go into piece. And have victories. That's a bit of a bit of a contradiction. Probably so. So Holy Army can in turn only make holy war, the cause of which would automatically have to be just so, how could it not be? So anyway, that's that's the story of the Insane Nuclear Nakhalin Russia. Guys will on I'm fascinated by the fact that any that Vladimir. Putin was moved by public opinion. You know what I mean like. It must have been so i. don't know that that's that seems crazy to me such an guard. This is a really big move I. Think and he's smart enough that I think he knows it had needs to be handled carefully right there, just kind of recreating Russia as an entirely new being like a phoenix. Ed so just to finish like so many things Russian and I say this as a person who's been there. It's kind of amazing and kind of frightening at the same time. And if I go back, and I'd love to go back. I am for sure going to this place. And open to the public. Yeah, it's part of this park. I'm totally and. It's also got this amazing museum complex attached to it where these super interactive. Exhibits big of different battles and stuff, so it's very much a public place. So anyway. That's it by the way screen displays where you can blow up different countries and see what happened whole. You can annex all kinds of peninsulas by the way when I was looking at a list of Russian leaders through history. This is the fun shit. You learn doing the stuff. Yeah, yeah, Peter Peter the Great and Ivan, the terrible sound like major dudes, but why do we never hear vassily dark or vassily the squint or or false dmitry the first. Where's their war cathedral? I also learned of the Bald Hairy Bald Hyphen Dash Harry Ironic joke in Russian politics. It's a real thing. And it's really funny sense. Czar Nicholas the first all the way through. Vladimir Putin, Russian, leaders have alternated between Balden Harry Harry Replacement Bald Guy, bald guy. Replaces Guy. There's a whole chart. It's silly, but Russians have to dig pretty deep for comedy. Oh. My God yeah it well there you go. Were you know what did you know? Russians Vladimir Putin's been president of that country for twenty years, and you know clearly doing berry bad things, but at least they get. A cathedral out of it. He's ruining our country. And what are we fucking get? Yet he's on. He's been president. He has been charged for since one thousand, nine, hundred nine. Yeah, yeah. And he's trying to get the Duma to rewrite the constitution, so it can be president for the rest of his life so he. They haven't already done that. I mean how ya all, but in all, but you know were typed words so look for that. Let's comforting there. You GotTa War Church. A church Lubinov. Gentlemen. Hello, how do once again? More people have signed up to to be patrons of our art. You know these people the longest time. All all the good art was patronized by had had one major patron, and that was the church. That's right, and and so it all ended up being. About Ding, dongs. Chopping their own heads off and carrying them around or whatever. Yeah! So it's good that we are in an era now. When Non Church support can still create good things some. we have some folks, so thank who are who who have gone to the how to heretic. Website and clicked on the support thing and that's taken them to the the Patriot. And then you choose how much you WANNA. Give per episode, and and and you know your level of support is. Is Your Business Right but here are the people that we need to thank. I, thank you to the turn-up of terror. Lord El Paso. Thanks to Brian Jane, Bell and I think it's my turn to give a saint, and the state goes to Chris and Chris. Your saint is Saint Glenn of crew Chiba. And Glenn is the patron saint of of. Very very aggressive fish. And of black beans and And Sausage. And of Copious and unnecessary plastic surgery. Oh. No a quick question just clarity. Is Are these fish that are by nature, aggressive, or are these fish that are driven by circumstances to become aggressing. It's you know what I think. It applies to both Holy Shit. Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, you get you. Get all the good stuff you just when you patronize the. Heritage that's that's a lot of saint. It's all upside baby. Yeah, yeah! If, you can't afford to be our patron. That's fine, but hey, why not tell tell a friend about our show? Why not give us? You know five stars on the old I tunes or wherever you find us? Yes, I'll give five stars on spotify. Yeah tunes. Would it hurt you would just. Would it be so hard? Yeah? Yeah, so do that and we will look. We will look for those stars to illuminate our night sky, and bring us closer together on this beautiful flat earth so with that. Why don't we do more show? How Hawks do it? Alkyl Doug. Ho. I. Don't know where you fall along the taste spectrum of the Mars Confectionery Company. A lot of thoughts about that. Yeah, I know we've talked about this. On I mean this is probably what we talk about the most, and we do just about about your your your mounds, Almond Joy I. Don't want you guys to Snicker, but my my opinion worth one hundred grand right? Wow! Boom was on deck with that that was. That was improvised humor right there. They're. Very Mormon humor and I think jokes about confections are our wheelhouse so. What. What's Your Opinion Dan? What's your favorite of the candy bars? you know I? I love a lot of them. I think what you're leading me to is is the youngest of the of the the candy confections? The Christ Child of the candy confections the baby. If you will yes. One Baby Ruth Yes I. Don't Know Old Alcoholic Baseball player never made sense to me, but What we're talking about here is the namesake of that of said confection yes. The book of Ruth. Candy Bar obviously yes. Yes, exactly Now I'm going to, but before we get to that I'm just GONNA say. I am sorry I know guys that we were all very disappointed last month. When we realized that yet again, we had let the Jewish holiday of Charlotte pass us by unobserved. How did we let that happen? Damn you Siri. Didn't you remind me anyway? As you know show, vote is the day that Jews celebrate when on. Mount Sinai God gave the Torah to Moses and the Jews I know I know you thought Moses. Received the Ten Commandments. When he went up the mountain wrong, he apparently received the Torah to. What a shock! It must have been for them to be given a scroll in which was written the very story that they were in the middle of being in. A bunch of stuff that was going to happen in their future after all Moses went up to Sinai in Exodus, so there were still three more books than the Torah that came after that. trippy man! Yes, anyway, that's that's where the term scroll ahead came from. Nailed. You are on a roll man. What's your anyways it the Gingko below. It's it's it's the it's Mana A- anyway. Show vote is a very strange lesser holiday where people celebrate in several ways they go to synagogue to pray. They stay up late talking about the importance of the Torah. They eat a meal heavy in dairy. You can insert your own Jewish digestion joke here. But one of the biggest traditions of show votes is the reading of the Biblical Book of Ruth Oh now along with esther. Ruth is one of two books in the Bible named after a woman. Actually that may not be true for all I know. Zephenia or Hagai might be women. I have no idea on that one. Nobody no way to tell really not. So one thing's for sure though. Because these books are about women they are uncharacteristically and very mercifully short biblical books. That's. Doug's number one rule the Bible boom. Maybe you gotta go for the The lady. Books Ruth is only four chapters long, so that's what I'm going to be talking about today. now you should know. I didn't choose the story of Ruth because it was a particularly interesting story or even crazy in some way. I literally just got curious. What a book in the Bible that focuses on a woman might be like. So I thought I thought you chose it. Why. Candy Bar side, which I know is a big issue for you that that is the Mormon temple name given to your betrothed wife. That is true. Yeah, that's true and now and now I can come to her and tell her I understand her namesake. And soon you guys will be able to do that, too. All Vail we all be able to call her fourth in the final days. So I don't know whose wife she'll be in the end I. Guess Whoever says I. Doug and I can just prank caller through the Vale right exactly. Doug's Doug. You're actually the only one with The Holy Malkhaz addict priests. Gave that up about seven years ago. You get you get you get a free Andrea out of it if you can. Enjoy it I. Don't know. Give it a shot Joe Anyway. So. Here's the gist of the story. The town of Bethlehem was having a famine. Which seems careless of them? Anyway? A Hebrew man who lived there decided to take his wife and two sons and go to a place that you know had food. Now, this guy dies immediately in the story, but he was a man so unsurprisingly even for a story about a woman. He has a name which is Elimelech. which is what is surprising, is that his wife also is named, and she is called Naomi. Anyway Elimelech. takes the family to the land of the MOA bites. Who aren't Hebrews, so we know they're likely bad people. Actually fun fact. The Moa Bites are the descendants of MOAB. who was the product of that time when lot's daughters got themselves pregnant by getting their dad drunk and raping him. Remember that? That was MOHEB YEP so apparently? He did pretty well for himself. Because now he has a whole kingdom of people named after him. So? Elimelech and Naomi make the grueling thirtyish Mile Trek to settle their in MOAB. Apparently. That's far enough away that there wasn't any more famine there. I don't know thirty miles. That's enough I guess. Anyway before you know it. Dies so Naomi, and the boys are on their own, but never fear because the boys find themselves some cute local girls, and get married Roy these progressive Jews in their interfaith marriages for them. So those girls were ruth and or PA who. Doug is who or pro winfrey was named after. Which which is true? Yeah, that's true. they all lived their happy little lives in Moab for ten years, and then well, apparently, the Elimelech jeans were not particularly hardy. Because both of the boys die to Oh dance. No Word on how this happened, but we now have three widows trying to figure out what to do with themselves. Naomi has heard that they have that. They cancelled the famine back in Judah so she decides she's going to go back. To her people, Both ORCA and ruth decide to go with her, but she tells them not to come saying that they should stay and find themselves new husband's there in Moab, which seems a little callous considering. She seems to be the only family they have left, but whatever they'll all. Get along I guess. They cried together, and then the girls say no. We still want to come and live with. You will come. But Naomi Again Says No. I'm old. I can't provide you with any more husbands. and we're super poor now and. And I never liked you. Anyway. You go back now. You're here, you go back. was apparently she apparently could take a hint and was like fuck this bitch and she had back, but ruth is not as good at taking a hint, and she is determined to stay with Naomi no matter how hard she tries to get rid of her. She says the famous line. Where you go, I will go and where you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Now, that is the moment that the Jews celebrate Ruth's big conversion to Judaism, but I gotta say there is not much. Hey made about it in that book the lines. That line is really the only word on the matter. And I got in the context of this story. Ruth's religious conversion couldn't seem less important. I know lots of people who were converted to religion who converted to religions to feel accepted by the people that they love and admire the idea that this is some amazing change of heart where suddenly Jewishness is a big deal to. Ruth is really not born out in the book, but. Whatever? Anyway they head back to Bethlehem. Boom moving onto chapter two. Now. We have to unmarried women very impoverished trying to make their way in Bethlehem. The famine may be over, but that doesn't mean that these two have enough to eat, so ruth decides to do a thing that apparently poor people did. It was barley harvest time, so ruth went into the fields. The harvesters had been through and collected any stocks of grain that they might have missed. Now the owner of this field Boaz, saw her gleaning and was impressed with her diligence. That's it. Her diligence is what he was interested. We've diligence. Yeah she's got a nice set of diligence. If you know Oh my God, you're punctual. Anyway he asks one of the harvesters who she is and the. Well, that's not exactly true. He asks more pertinent biblical question. Who does she belong to? Because women are not people, they are possessions. They told Boaz that. She was the MOA bite. Who came back with Naomi now? This didn't seem to faze him. He went to her and told her that she could totally glean in his field after the harvest. If you know what I mean, yeah. Anyway you go ahead and get what grain you can I've told my men not to rape you or whatever so you should be okay. Also can you have? You can have water from my workers? PITCHERS and I'm Super Generous so you know. Did you know rich to? You could probably have acute huge crush on me if you WANNA, do. Anyway Ruth was like. Why are you being nice to me? I'm just a piece of Shit Moa. Bite. Who hasn't even high as high on the social ladder is your servants. But it turns out. That Boaz was related to Elimelech Naomi's husband and he had heard that ruth had been kind to Naomi which he thought was nice. At mealtime! Boaz called Ruth Ruth over to him, and gave her bread dipped in vinegar which I take to be. A good thing. He gave her all saw. MIC is nice. Yeah, sure then. He gave her a big Shittu of roasted grain. which well I guess that's also apparently Nice. It was more than she could eat. kept the leftovers. She pocketed the leftovers and then when she got up to go out to the fields, he told his men to leave a bunch of grain behind as they had harvested. As they harvested so that she would get more Here's a real romantic this guy. Then Ruth went home to Naomi and gave her the leftover roasted grain. Sweet and an all the barley that she'd been able to gather which happened, which was actually kind of a lot, and that's how they lived while the harvest was happening. Chapter Three. One day. Naomi said to ruth girl. We gotta get you a husband Stat. You're not getting any younger and this whole leftover grain gig won't last forever, so. What do you think about this Boaz Guy? Now Ruth was cool with Boas. Naomi came up with a plan. They knew Boaz would be winnowing that night. That's a grain harvest thing sure, so Naomi I the one rabbit hole. That I really went down than the the Jewish holiday. Rabbit hole was the grain harvesting out rabbit hole, but I decided to spare you all the details anyway. They knew that boas would be winnowing, so they know. Naomi told Ruth to put on her prettiest. WHATEVER THE FUCK! They were back, then I wanNA say. SACK. For the sake of the story, we'll just say her best clothes. Put on your best rag and tied up with your best rope fragment. Yeah, exactly She was also also told her to wash and put on perfume. So you know this ship was getting serious. That's good advice. Yes, it is She said to go down to the threshing floor again a grain thing. But. Don't let him know that you are there. Hide behind the grain. I guess I'm picturing her in gillies suit covered in Burley stocks like military sniper. Anyway Ruth was supposed to watch as she would wait until he had eaten and tossed back a few drinks and then note where he went to sleep. Then, she would sneak over to him. I think you know where I'm going with this I. Keep going Jesus. What fuck it I'll just quote the Damn Bible to you and let you guys figure it out. Quote now this is Naomi talking to. Ruth. Quote when he lies down. Note the place where he is lying, then go and uncover his feet and lie down. He will tell you what to do. which ruth replies, I will do whatever you say. Now I submit to you that anyone reading this. Honestly, that is to say anyone to anyone who doesn't have a desperate need to bend and twist everything in the Bible to be pure and wholesome. It is crystal clear. What is going on here? Yeah? You have a young woman getting all seat up and going to an older rich man to convince him to marry her using the only tool she has available. It's a tale as old as time. Well so it this is this the only biblical story I'm aware of where some sort of consent was established of right. Yeah, I mean that that is, that's progressive right there, yeah? Ruth does this and when Boaz wakes up in the middle of the night, he finds a sweet young thing lying next to him. Who Are you? He says I'm ruth. She says spread your garment over me because you're the big important man of the family. Now yes, in a metaphorical sense. She is asking him to cover her to bring her under his protection. Also, she is very literally telling him to let her into his clothing. It really doesn't get any less ambiguous than that. I I'm afraid I don't see where you can you. This isn't sexy. Time Up. Sorry, a hundred percent and be sure that we get what's happening. Here's Boaz's response. Quote the Lord bless you daughter this. This kindness is greater than that showed earlier. You have not run after the younger men whether rich or poor. What kindness! Uncovering his feet as he slept, asking for a corner of his garment. No the only way that that response makes any sense, is if she? Did some kindnesses for him. Well after that he gushes about her for a while, and then tells her to sleep next to him until morning. Oh, but she'd better scurry off before sunrise because we wouldn't want anybody talking. Now. That's a classic move to exactly. The rest of the book is a bunch of Legalese about how the guy was. How another guy was actually a closer relative tonight into Naomi Than Boas, so he had the first right of refusal on Ruth who apparently came as a package deal with Naomi's husband's inheritance, because women after all our property fortunately, though the other relative wanted the land, but was less enthusiastic about ruth, so he took off his Sandal, and gave it to boas, which I guess is a the weirdest equivalent to shaking hands, and the deal was done Boaz married Ruth, and they all lived happily ever after. So the book ends with this little tip tidbit. Boaz and ruth gave birth to OBE ed. Who then fathered Jussie who then sired? David. That is a long walk for that payoff, isn't it? It sure as hell is. Quick Recap of the story, the heroine of the book of Ruth First Mary's a guy who dies follows her mother-in-law back to her home switches, religions sleeps so the rich old guy to get him to marry her, and eventually becomes the great grandma of somebody famous the end. What unnecessary story yeah. Funny because as I was researching this thing. I've. A lot of Jewish. Rabbis have expounded on this story quite a lot, and apparently in the in in the Talmud. There's a lot of like other stories a lot of other. Legends surrounding this story and one of them is that or by the the the mall by woman who went back to MOAB? Somehow had sex with. Hundreds of soldiers and all at the same time. And that was and that was how she gave birth. To, the Goliath, oh my. So she who is the sister-in-law of the Great Grants Grandmother of David was the mother of the giant Goliath David I'm not sure how that works out. And that, doesn't it also mean the David and Goliath were like cousins, yes. Yeah okay. That's an interesting twist to the story. Family issue. We didn't know that we just thought they were. It was war, but it's clearly a some some cousin rivalry. Yeah and go speaking down really quickly to your to your. We were talking about women's names in the Bible's. At up and weight really quickly for if you don't mind what it's I found here. Professor Karla Baumbach says one study produced a total of three thousand to thirty one hundred names, twenty, nine, hundred of which are men with one hundred and seventy of the total being women. In the Bible however, the possibility duplication produced the recalculation of a total of seventeen hundred distinct personal names in the Bible with one, hundred, thirty, seven of them, being women, and yet another study of the Hebrew Bible only there were a total of fourteen hundred twenty six names. With thirteen hundred and fifteen, belonging to men and one hundred eleven to women, seventy percent of the named and unnamed women in the Bible. Come from the Hebrew Bible. Despite the disparity seventy percent, so that means there's hardly any in the New Testament despite the variety. Among these different calculations. It remains true that women are women's names represent five point, five and eight percent of the total names in the Bible. a study of women who's spoken. Words are recorded found ninety three of which forty nine women were named so. Good Job Bible. Bible? Yeah Doing Great. It's no wonder that we all call it the book just because it's true. Is it necessary I don't know. All Right Ruth Yeah. Let's close the book on that. There's there's not much use in that by. Well friends. That is it for this week show? Hey, we'd love to hear from you if you did something from one of these stories, please send us an email. Out to and how to heretic DOT COM Or if you got your head run over by the Bundy's Mellon truck as well, you can leave us a voicemail about it. At nine, three, eight, two, nine, three, eight, four, six, hundred, six, I'm also on twitter at Howard, and a mighty thanks to our honorable and wonderful patrons, and thank you to our ballistic missiles site, Cody Layton for editing the show and thanks. All of you friends for tuning in the by friends to talk.

Cleven Bundy federal government Cliven Bundy government Uncle Doug Vladimir Putin US Bundy Russia cliven Bunkerville Amnon Ryan Germany official Brigham Uncle Mark Sean Hannity facebook baseball Stephen Colbert
Dispatches: Bundyville, The Remnant

Outside Podcast

1:02:43 hr | 1 year ago

Dispatches: Bundyville, The Remnant

"This episode of the outside podcast brought to you by athletes unfiltered season two. It's the new podcast from strata the world's best APP for runners and cyclists and this season. We've got an incredible series of stories from the strategy community when I say we I mean for the last few months the podcast team here at outside has been working with the folks at strata on these stories. They're all about running cycling and ultra marathoning so you've been helping out and there's some stuff in here that I'm actually Kinda jealous that they got to. I like Myrna Valero but what it's like to be an overweight ultra marathoner. I already know that I'm fat so you don't tell me that I am an ultra marathoner so please don't make assumptions about me. Please don't ask me to exercise because I exercise Lorenzen. Dan You struggles to find balance as a professional bike racer. I don't visit to anybody. I know you know close to me because it's like it's like you have been into a war zone or Brian and Tom Williams a father. Other son team took on the Comrades Ultra Marathon and South Africa. Even after Brian had been kicked out of the country. I think we're GONNA do it if we do it and if we succeed it or just be it'll be the fulfillment of a dream. It'll put your risk many of the ghosts of post. It's a series that's not so much about how to change your life to better pusher limits but about how pushing limits can change your life. The first episode of athletes unfiltered season two is out now with more episodes coming coming every other week this summer find it and subscribe and your favorite podcast APP whichever when you're listening on right now from outside magazine N._p._R.. These these are dispatches stories from writers in the field last year round this time we shared an episode of the series Bundy Ville with you about the Bundy family they had been at the center of two standoffs federal government in Nevada at the ranch in an Oregon at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge these two events kind of become flashpoints the debate about public lands in the West and there was a around dialogue about questions like should ranchers be running cattle out there should desert land be preserved as habitat for endangered species who owns the middle of nowhere. If you listen to that whole series and we can actually tell by the numbers I love you did by the time you get the end. The questions had changed a little bit. It wasn't about public lands so much as anti-government violence. This conflict started out being about the Bundy's where they could raise cattle but by the end it was bigger in about the militias religious fundamentalists and conspiracy theorists that had responded when the Bundy's put out a call for the last year reporter. Leah's Attila has been following this new threat reporting not on the Bundy's but on the people who are taking the radical accolades ideas of the Bundy's even further. You may have noticed a lot of right wing violence in the news this last year shootings synagogues and mosques bombs being mailed a prominent liberals when it comes to extremist violence twenty eighteen was actually actually one of the most violent years in America since nineteen seventy so leah wanted to know about this violence where it was coming from WHO's carrying it out and why and now a year later we've got another season of Bundy Ville the share with you the rooms all over the American West. This is another project team here at outside has been helping with so we're actually gonNA play the first two episodes for you back to back but unlike the first season that ended up really far from where it started season two who by the end is right back where it began in the small rural town of panic in Nevada a quick warning to people who may be listening with kids or triggered by this topic these episodes have some mild swearing graphic violence and discussions of racist just ideologies so just keep that in mind usually so what if I told you that in the summer of Twenty sixteen in a rural western town there was a bombing you never heard about nine one on what emergency short hell Ma'am Ma'am abreast for me okay and I I can barely Danja happened. Linden Pinnock Nevada a town about three hours north of Las Vegas Right on the border with Utah. He's he said he was going to kill you you. He said he's calling for explosives and you are you away from the home. It was July Thirteenth Twenty sixteen around eight o'clock in the evening one of those warm warm summer nights but still feels like the middle of the day Tiffany cluff was insider house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was gonna blow her house up? She should get the kids and leave the man then lit the fuse on the bomb. He'd put inside the house walk to his car. Got Inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head. Then everything blew up. Ah Shrapnel went everywhere curving in Long Arc's over the town just down the street the county sheriff some black smoke coke mushroom cloud billing into the sky but I do need additional information from the okay so she we have one dispatcher time she goes to jail any help. Appeal trees title all lines all administrative also just couldn't y'all got physics. If you try to so that's Panetta's Sheriff Carrie Leigh he lives down the street and he had no idea what was going on. who was was involved but tiffany Kloof? She knew the bombers. Is there anyone injured or do you see anyone injured. Who Came Glenn Jones came into Your House for House from long reads and Oregon Public Broadcasting? This is Bundy fill the remnant. I'm the utility it was about eight o'clock in the evening. Just normal summer evening people out walking kids riding bikes people mowing lawns just normal. Nothing out of the ordinary cheerfully was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grabbed the keys to his patrol rig and drove toward the chaos. You know my mind is like troy hundred mile an hour trying to figure out what in the world and with at that time twenty eight years Moore's law I mean I'd seen a lot of been experience a lot. I'm still trying to comprehend what in the world is going on here. You know carvedilol like that in a movie okay when you see a movie that's how they don't like that. Panetta gets share of loud noises from a nearby air. Force Base is Sheriff said he knew right away. This was something different and I literally felt in my chest. I felt the concussion in my chest. Then I could see the mushroom cloud coming up over the air though in the world in the I could hear the power here that I thought this was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany cluff recognized the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure figuring out so I grabbed the key patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car. The second explosion happens in the more he told us about it the crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling in their vehicles and we actually had to weave through cars get into the to where the houses and we were waved as as stop stop. Stop your body parts. I said what run around her body parts and that's what they said. Look over there look over. There's a subtle leagues the belt down laying on the road. The first bomb blew up the house of Tiffany and her husband Josh cluff. They were nurses in town and live there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened and the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car parked next to the House and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones a former nurse who used to work under Josh at the Hospital Sheriff Lee pulled up to a scene that was absolute mayhem mayhem and like other body parts everywhere share flea is a guy with many jobs in Panetta and when he arrived he wasn't sure which job he was supposed to be doing okay so this is a small small town small community small county and we all wear different hats okay and you're gonNA probably get a chuckle out of this but I am also the fire chief here in Pinnock okay volunteer volunteer. They see you are also as sheriff. You're also the corner of the county corner also correct. I'm on the Emergency Planning Commission for the county. I try to somewhat hold of family on. I helped my father run the ranch so so between auto spare time a little bit between midnight four A._M.. Okay so he's at the scene and he's got body parts. That means Corner Hat Sheriff Lee told me and my producer Ryan has that it's his job to identify fi who's limbs were scattered everywhere but he can't really I._D.. Anyone with just some legs and we did not actually find the upper torso. which is what we need it for vacation? I don't care about the do care but that's not I need. I need the torso legs. Any I mean I need fingerprints. I need dental records and that type of stuff to be able to identify someone took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of Glen Jones when they did he wasn't laid out on his back and easy to identify a tree in the neighbor's yard. Yeah bazaars it is but even more bizarre was that when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the cores investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we're able to give fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said D._N._R.. which do not resuscitate my that's my my medical? Training is the army's resuscitate and phone number for the victims house or the victim the victim of the house his phone number bizarre you know I don't even know how to venture on that. I just that's one of the most bizarre things that I've encountered on a death to. Have somebody ask you something like that on them. I don't know I don't know he had he had a lot of medical training so I know I know that's why I think d._N._R.. Was He knows what the arm it but he knows medical d._N._R.. Is Not resuscitate can ask a stupid question when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system and saw that job. Why isn't this guy after the first season of Bundy villa last year? I had no intention of making thing anymore. I wanted to find out why the Bundy family would take on the government twice in why all these really different militia groups flocked to their side for the most part I got answers the Bundy's tapped into an anti-government worldview that exists just under the surface out west and created an image of the true American cowboy for people to rally around but after they won their court cases the Bundy's started to disappear disappear they'd gotten what they wanted and they're still running cows on public land without paying your grazing fees and of story right but the anti-government group's who'd come to their side. They didn't go away the Bundy's brought together the oath keepers sovereign citizens three percenters in the right wing media all the people who think the government is out to get them basically the catchall term for these groups is the Patriot movement and that movement didn't go away just because cliven Bundy went back to ranching so before you go any further if you haven't listened to that season go do that now. Season Two is going to build off a lot of the things we talked about last time time. Actually the first question I had when I came across the story of the bombing in Panetta was whether or not it was connected to the Bundy's in the Patriot movement and everything from season one was this extremist violence some form of of domestic terrorism or just a dispute between co workers. There wasn't any obvious connection. It was just this weird thing but it's not like bombs blood everyday in this country and I wanted to know more so producer user Ryan Harrison. I flew out there. pennock is this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border with Utah a desert outpost that was founded in eighteen sixties by Mormon pioneers see only town in Nevada. That's dry hi meaning. You can't buy alcohol there. One of just two in the state were gambling is prohibited. There's a sign at the town listing the ten commandments like that'll keep the devil out so Panetta's God country and it's such a western Cliche cliche that I literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle of the street. It's a place where you know your neighbor and you know that really knowing him means understanding. What's Your Business? What isn't ask someone about Glen Jones and they'll say they knew him? Nice guy blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one anakin tells me they wouldn't wanNA speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town but then offered an opinion opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of a workplace grievance between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff Josh at one time was Glenn's boss at the local hospital and they we're good friends Glenn even help Josh build his house in Panetta but about a year before the bombing Glenn left his job at the hospital later he also losses nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe. Maybe Glenn blamed Josh I'd heard and the he headed grudge with him. Glenn Wadsworth family home is next door to the cliffs. He was out mowing the lawn when the bombing happened was the last person seek Glenn Jones alive the gentleman got out of that car and I watched him get out of that car walk around back in the House and he walked back in you know he weighed at me and was mowing the lawn watts. We're told us that this weird feeling came over and while he was mowing that he should skip the rest of the front yard and move around to the back so we did and there's no question that I wouldn't be here for mobile the east side and the southside saved my life that night sure in fact nobody but the bomber was hurting the blast. This was a common story. I heard everyone remembers where they were that day and how no-one got hurt even when shrapnel rain down like hail of a clear Blue Sky Sky the worst thing that happened was a boy who's riding his bike by the clubhouse got smacked with a piece of something was knocked off his bike. He got a bruise really I mean you probably could look at that kid shoulder and they wouldn't miss car that kid's mom works at the local bed-and-breakfast. She made us pancakes when we were there and she told us she thought the angels of Panetta's ancestors were looking out for the town that day for some people in Panetta. That's really all the explanation they need. God kept them safe. There aren't any official answers anyway. Share Flea tells me that shortly after the bombing it became an F._B._i.. Investigation and all the F._B._I.. Told me when I asked for comment was was that it's quote the policy of the F._B._i.. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear. Nobody in town can really answer my questions but people were still thinking about it. A couple people asked me to call them if I found out what really happened between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff it's only after I left Panetta that I may be found an answer an answer that pointed to something much bigger than a petty disagreement between co workers. After visiting Panetta. I started calling around. Glenn Jones had been living in Kingman Arizona in an R._V. Park right before the bombing happened. I called all the tattoo shops in town thinking maybe someone would remember doing a weird phone number Tattoo and while my calls did peak the curiosity of a lot of kingman tattoo artists no knew anything about it. I also look for Jones's relatives online but turned up. Nothing substantial social what I did learn is that Jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the Army National Guard but he never saw combat in fact. He never left his home state of Colorado during his service in Kingman Jones's well liked by the people there as he wasn't Panetta remembered for his deference more than any other quality the manager the R._V. Park where he lived told me that just days before the bombing Jones owns came into his office and paid the rent for a neighbor going through chemo. He told the manager not to say who did it. An Panetta not only did no one say negative thing to me about Jones most wouldn't even call him by his name. They referred to him as the suspect or the person. The National News didn't cover it either. This was a bombing on American soil and sure no one was hurt but the bomber but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story after the bombing the Kingman Police Department rated Glenn Jones's trailer so I got copies of their police reports they found bomb-making materials inside a few spiral bound journals Jones name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for a bomb one detective said quote the entries indicated that Glenn Jones it had been approached by a subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device the intended target the officer wrote was identified as Fourth of July beal field office but here's where things things get murky because the fourth of July came and went that year and nothing happened in by July thirteenth. Jones decided instead to target Josh Cliff here sheriff. We I don't know I I don't know an I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. There were friends at one point time. They're very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal federal government some reason they would've wanted to bomb a beal field office and it turned out there was hello everyone this boyfriend come one cow boyish Dan for freedom and I promised that I'd make more videos radio when things progress between me and the federal government to be all I'm in particular and they have before the twenty sixteen takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Nobody really knew Lavoix finicky by the time he went to Oregon in the most public facing presence he had where the youtube videos he'd been posting for a few months about his fight with the Bureau of land-management Remember. He's the guy from Malheur who was killed reaching for a gun in his jacket during a traffic stop at a roadblocks set up by police to arrest the leaders of the occupation for now. We know who is that by July twenty sixteen when the bomb went off in Nevada the cluff home Finnigan was dead in the Patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of tyrannical government murdering Americans your hand everywhere you look in the Patriot movement you'll see Finnigan's cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles lls flags bumper stickers people write songs about him. He's become the figurehead of a movement in their report. Kingman police wrote that there was an entry in Jones's notebook indicating that La- VOIP and it comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beal office and that quote Josh is the cousin of Lavoie finicky him. I was able to confirm the Josh. CLUFF is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved so I asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time time way. Before the bombing that lead did see an anti-government side to Kloof. He didn't WanNa give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the just was that at the hospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone and couldn't decide to ask for it themselves cleft wasn't having it got really angry started yelling but got a little bit of eye-opening about how Josh felt about out government overreach so just to be clear Glenn Jones blew up the House of Josh cluff who was related to Lavoix Finchem Finnigan's death according to the police report was possibly Glenn Jones's motive for the bombing of appeal and building but that bombing never happened Jones targeted cluff instead it's unclear whether cluff and Jones were working together to bomb the bill and building it first and something went wrong or Jones was working alone and decided the damn close house for some other reason what was close role and all this was he ever investigated. I don't know because the F._B._i.. Won't even tell me if there is an investigation so what happened between the two of them we know they were involved. Financially police found a contract for twenty two acres of land that Jones bought from cluff for fifty thousand dollars. There was also an account that would pay out to cluff in the event of Jones's death but but I can't tell if any of that connects to the bombing cluff is never given any straight answers about Jones or Lavoix or bomb anabela office shortly after the bombing the clubs packed up what few belongings they could salvage aged moved to Idaho again. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong they only confirmed that they did in fact service search warrant here at the family's new house and also at the families old house the site of the explosion Lahj. We're back in Panetta. There's nothing where the house used to be. Just an empty lot filled with mud. I walked the whole perimeter of it while we were there. Thinking some answer about what really happened might present itself but all I got were muddy shoes and nervous looks from a guy standing quietly on his porch across the street watching Ryan. I poke around like Weirdos so after I got home I got in touch with cluff on facebook and ask for an interview finally after a few messages is he wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past he said I typed at a response immediately that it wasn't trying to compromise that happiness but that it seemed like his side of the story had really come out what in his mind was the truth why the held in Glen Jones Have Josh's phone number tattooed on his body. I hit send but by then cluff had blocked me months later I found an email forum and I reached out again and I tried one more time to get cleft to say something. I sent him the evidence I had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin Voi- Finnigan he responded quote. Those were terrible times for my family which we're trying to move past at the I did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. However the peninsula bombing came to target Josh in Tiffany cluff instead of a be a lamb building it appeared of begun as a response to the death of a Lavoix finicky him it was in some ways a continuation in the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at Bundy ranch in the years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs there have been more and more acts of extremist violence popping up in the the news and it seems like each time the radical ideas that inform the Patriot movement come up to turn to the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight like a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent imminent liberals like Barack Obama Hillary Clinton and George Soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy ball? He's also active on social media and often posted anti liberal messages and conspiracy theories to twitter or Georgia man killed a cop considered himself a sovereign citizen and nation unto himself reclaim to be a sovereign citizen meaning. He didn't recognize police authority or the shooter in New Zealand who've been fire onto mosques because of what he saw as a so called white genocide New Zealand is a nation stricken tonight a self-declared white supremacist gunned down Muslims at prayer today not to give the Bundy's too much credit but no bombs went off at now here. No shots were fired at Bunkerville so when this season of Bundy Ville we're not actually talking to any BUNDY's instead we're talking about the people who picked up where they left off the remnant of their movement and then we're following the violence following the ripple outward from avoids boy's death through `Pinaka. Try and figure out what's coming next where it'll be coming from what the pinnacle bombing probably is is a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies how those ideologies become violent but I couldn't ask Glenn Jones why he blew up the clubs house or if the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone someone who is at Bundy ranch who knew Lavoix Finchem and who also tried to blow up a government building in the summer of two thousand sixteen and when I called him up. He said he'd be happy to tell me anything. I wanted to know it's February twenty nine thousand nine hundred and I met a truck. Stop outside Salt Lake City Utah. It's just after four o'clock. The sons already going down range of snow covered mountains looms nearby producer Ryan Harrison. I have come here to meet with a guy named bill keebler and we're nervous. Keebler has been involved with the Patriot movement since Bunkerville where he he says he ran security afterward. He started his own militia fifty seven year old. William Keebler is known by the F._B._i.. As commander of a citizen militia group called the Patriots Defense Force in fact Keebler has been portrayed as one of the most dangerous people in the Patriot treatment according to the court documents F._B._i.. Undercover agents infiltrated Keebler Group and took part in field training exercises they say keebler talked to members of his militia about quote going on the offensive in June of two thousand any sixteen just a month before Glenn Jones Flip the club family home in Panetta Keebler hit the button to detonate what he thought was a bomb set to destroy a building owned by the Bureau of Land Management. Thought is the keyword there it turns out. His bomb was a fake given to him by undercover F._B._i.. Agents who had embedded in his group even before his arrest Bill Keebler thought there was some grand conspiracy of play and that for some reason the government was out to him personally the thing is it turned out he was one hundred percent right about that from long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. When Glenn Jones shot himself in the head waiting for his bombs to blow up and Panetta he took with him answers to all sorts of questions about why he did what he did but by talking to Keebler I hope we might learn something about how right wing bombers operate and what they're thinking why does someone in the Patriot movement like diffuse or press the button and why now Keebler Jones had both set off their bombs in the summer of two thousand sixteen four to five months after the mail your? Occupation in Oregon had resolved so what changed after Mao here today anything smokes in Coffee Real Quick Bill Keebler looks like shriveling old ranch hand and he's got leathery skin smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery where at a denny's he's tucked into the corner of the truck stop for most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company Creator gator outfitters off in Georgia crews we ease into the conversation Ryan than I are just trying to get a feel for who were talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. In the army. Eleven Bravo Infantry <hes> went to a lot of specialized training for bed and when Germany I'll ended there. I think one of Friday Saturday morning I woke up on Russian communist Russian border says it also knows his way around computers due to do codes nutrition they can't break and they still have nothing good anyway even says he has a black belt. In Kung Fu studied numerous rumors are ranked black Belton for different styles <hes> eighty six eighty six before board of Masters and I presented the new system he says he he created his own system of Kung-fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly Rambo own and I should be clear I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but I also wasn't in Utah to figure you're out whether he got third place in the Kung Fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the F._B._i.. But I that meant convincing him that we weren't f._B._I.. Agents raided talk to people like I'm going to be honest way would surprise present both David pulled out badge. I just went shutting what I've seen because in keebler swirled everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me story with me. I've been borrow town for years. I came here because I wanted to hear Keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent I couldn't get answers from Glenn Jones who police said had wanted to target a government building so I had hoped keebler would help me understand why a person will try to detonate a bomb but just a few minutes into the interview. What I'm really wondering is how did the F._B._I.? Decide to focus on this guy is this <music> old man in poor health really the most dangerous person Patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing thing the verifiable part of Bill Keebler story starts in two thousand fourteen when he spent about two weeks in Bunkerville Nevada on Cliven Bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the Bundy's hadn't paid their grazing fees and the beal had come to collect their cattle the fact that Keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back then Keebler says he was a member of the the oath keepers a militia associated with the Patriot movement and by his account at Bundy ranch he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. We've not actually stop a lot of people alive. I like them. Play up there. <hes> how stop some people didn't WanNA shoot people when I've got mad about him for the game I fix he wanted to start the war. Do I want to WHO said I won't fire shot just to get started because if one shot had ever went off up there it's done you don't care if it was a firecracker backfire necessary base. Oh my God I hope Accardo have backfired you know or so might those down firecracker on the ground things with that volatile. I mean it was ready. I don't want to Rehash Bundy ranch but the long short of it is no cars backfired. no-one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the Bundy's cows were released released the agents left Keebler was pumped up in the Patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short at Boston Tea Party <hes>. I'm not apparent to show but we're not like that but it was a wakeup call soon the following months back at home in Utah Keebler started his own militia. He called it Patriots Defense Force or P._D._F.. It was a group of a half a dozen or so guys the got together mostly talk about self reliance basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. rappers talked a lot about going off grid about what to do when shit hit the Fan Keebler even showed people how to raise chickens rabbits for meat then a few months later keebler says he got a phone call from someone he'd met at Bunkerville McCoy finicky. He wanted me to basically come in his place and give him the support that we gave abundance. You'll recall that lavoix Finnigan was a leader of the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation was eventually killed by police at a roadblock in Oregon and that he was the cousin of Josh Wash cloth whose house was blown up Panetta but back then Finnigan was just a rancher in Arizona and Keebler said he was building up to his own bunkerville style standoff with the B._L._M.. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but but I do know that around this time in the late summer of Twenty fifteen finish Adam was becoming agitated with the Bureau of Land Management Bill Governor said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. What's he was making that pretty obvious on youtube page? No none of these bureaucrats do we allow here Monte County none of ever accountable to US Mohave County. This is the definition of tiered from the way Keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and Keebler who advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics to anyone who listen was happy to bring his militia. Come help him prepare for the confrontation at the Bundy's. We got there after the fat. If we knew it was coming we could be prepared. They were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come at just take all his cattle but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for Phoenix. Cattle records from the beal showed Vinnicombe only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven Bundy owed more than a million dollars crude over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup end up that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop Finchem from preparing for the worst or Keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the Bundy's had done at Finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto the land where he grazes cattle and then spring a trap don't mean ambush assault and kill and shoot none of that cracks where everybody at the plan was to let the beal. I'm on the property and then using excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out certain place when they come up hill them cattle. They can't get up hill keebler a saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what I saw a Bundy ranch or an Oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and I had to wonder then. What are they going to keep them? Hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before I could get an answer Keebler told me that another member of his militia wanted it to blow them all up Brad Miller's idea what he's bom up Keebler says Brad Miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that the first of all you killing mask cattle to you're killing whoever's truck but Brad Miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass? He was actually an undercover F._B._i.. Agent in fact at varying times there were three confidential informants and three undercover F._B._i.. Agents in Keebler militia so if you take away keebler the F._B._i.. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of P._D._F.. Militia Gotcha all this time Finnigan Keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents by the Spring of Twenty sixteen federal agents had been keyboards militia for more than a year trying to quote take his temperature according to text messages between agents on the surface. It seemed like a standard F. B. I. Undercover Operation We for the bad guys do bad stuff and then take him down but the more I talked to Keebler in the more the government blocked me from accessing his court records the more I started wonder about what role the government was really playing in the P._d._f.. Militia between the two agents and Leonard Informant Dave became the most active when we went down to Arizona to voice they pay for the whole trip but <hes> I'm. They were a good financial support and we needed that according to court documents the F._B._i.. Agent who who went Brad Miller taunted Keebler this was the same guy who keebler says had the idea to blow up federal agents unfinished comes property and he said that the Patriots and P._d._f.. Were just quote facebook fucking Nazis in other other words guys who have a lot to say online but never take action in real life Keebler in response suggested the group do some recon of potential targets in Salt Lake City agent Brad Miller core documents say was one of the most active members of the militia suggested targeting Muslims but keebler said he didn't know how to find any so miller offered to Google a mosque Mitch. I know we're pulling up to a mosque. I and I said Look you've lost your mind. Now looking around I said all of you've lost your F- mine's not mainly to Brag as we were clashing there he said but what would it take. Why couldn't we so I'll tell you why you can't? I said you see that thing behind your your left shoulder looks under this gas towers. You'd be amazed what sending things cameras monitor buildings. That's that's one reason. Can't you know getting a modest place second. Look at the terrain and I'll starting to break it down to tell him I said now he noted for you got look over people walking out coming in and out playing basketball. You see that those are kids. This women children are playing basketball shit. y'All loss again so the group moved on and drove past a bureau of Land Management Office Miller suggested that they mail a bomb to it or use a truck bomb to blow it up. Dude gone see no. That's feeling though you know how many people in do you know what this whole. Scouting mission was going nowhere. They thought Keebler take the lead and blowing up government buildings but he just wasn't biting if it sounds like the F._B._i.. Was Pushing Keebler to take some sort sort of drastic action. It turns out. Even some of their own agents were worried about that in court documents their records of text messages one of the other undercover F._B._i.. Agents who went by the name Jake Davis sent to was handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open Pandora's box in a way by taking keebler to a mosque he might not have found on his own. I'm worried about our liability. If he happens to go back sometime on his own in another text Davis worried about Miller's continued taunting of keebler quote. I'm all for pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas like when Miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in Dennis head over the course of their investigation the F._B._I.. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the West to Patriot movement gatherings they paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally only in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal. 'EM FACILITIES WAY OUT in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal building that he had scouted near Finnigan's ranch Vinnicombe by hi then had been killed in a traffic stop in Oregon over the next couple of months the F._B._I.. made him of fake pipe bomb and then on June twenty-first Twenty Sixteen Keebler and some of his militia traveled to Arizona and set the bomb outside the building keyboard. Push the button on a fake detonator the F._B._i.. Gave Him and then the next morning they arrested him. Tops Picnic brought me handcuff misguide comes in addressed a bigger negotiating green on his face loud she mr cable trying to bust your sorry ask for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants in two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert in almost makes you wonder if the F._B._i.. Hadn't been around would keillor's militia have just kept on raising chickens cooking rabbits. It's being facebook. Nazis entrapment is very hard to prove in court. <hes> the burden is it. I is on the defense rather than on the prosecution to bring bring the case. This is Karen Greenberg. She's the director of the Center on National Security Forum Law the school in New York City. I asked her about the legality of the F._B._I.. Pushing a guy like keebler you when you go to court or when you read the court documents they look very much like you know somebody was placed in the midst of this group was listening and picked up information. Asian that was used useful and usable right and then the other end of the spectrum which is who provided the munitions who provided the plot who provided the ideology who it's it's at hooper who really ran ran this if you look at the active elements of it I just want to note that Greenberg's primary focus is international terrorism and she haughty groups but there's some crossover between the cases. She's watched and the Keebler case so so like is it common in the cases pieces than you've watched like this that that someone will say like here's a bomb or hey. Why don't we Google mosque for you or hey how this or do this or in this case is individual keebler was like I don't know guys like you know Oh and then we went and interviewed him he said I guess I just got it in my mind? That's what I should do at a certain point okay so the F._B._I.'s defense on this and it's worth thinking about because it's it's got legitimacy to it which is look. I could have been all kinds of and if I could get them to do it. Don't you think al Qaeda get them to do it. And it works with a jury it works and because what they say to the jury is would you have said yesterday this F._B._i.. Guy So maybe that's the logic to the keebler case that if the feds could get to Keebler some with a plan and target and connections to a bombmaker could too so he belonged in jail but this interpretation of the law is fairly new and controversial basic a cruel that they're called the attorney. General guidelines required an F._B._i.. Agent to have a reasonable indication that criminal activity may occur in the nineteen ninety s Michael German was an undercover F._B._i.. Agent agent who went inside militia groups in the Pacific northwest he works for the Brennan Center for Justice now but it's previous work was infiltrating White Supremacist Neo Nazi groups. German tells me that before nine eleven in order to to investigate someone the F._B._i.. Needed a reasonable indication that that person was about to commit a crime pretty low standard. I hit most most F._B._I.. Agents wake wake up in the morning pretty suspicious but after nine eleven the Bush administration wrote new guidelines allowing the F._B._i.. To investigate pretty much anyone. Why would you want to investigate somebody? You don't have a reasonable factual basis to believe are doing something wrong. I mean this doesn't make any sense and clearly what it opens. Up Is the opportunity to to target people who who you don't like German says that in order to watch someone all the F._B._i.. Needs is a theory that maybe that person could commit a crime someday in the future initially it was mostly used against Muslims but has broadened out because it's a successful tactic as far as the F._B._i.. Is concerned it is broadened out other groups and my concern with that is your targeting. The lowest hanging fruit right not pretty much describes keebler the low hanging fruit after sitting in talking with him for three hours. I'm not convinced he could put a bomb plot together. He didn't have any targets identified. You didn't know how to build a bomb and and when it's defense attorney found those text messages at the F._B._I.. Waffling about whether or not they were putting crazy ideas into crazy guys head government offered him a plea deal. Even keebler says the F._B._I.. Got To him well they was he'll a bit determined to do something and I guess I kinda. Let it get my head that maybe if we did something to cutler mode kind of like a warning signal. There are two ways to look at Keebler I as a man with the potential to commit violence silence because the F._B._i.. May Have given him the bomb but he still hit the button and to be honest. It's easier to see him that way as an off his rocker militia member but that's probably too easy of an answer because whatever he did he probably L.. We wouldn't have been able to do it without the F._B._I.'s help. So how much blame does he really deserved. Whichever version of Bill Keebler is more accurate guy we're talking to here at Denny's is a paranoid man who thinks to the government may actually be justified in that paranoia at one point in our conversation he went silent and then told us that we were under surveillance? He based on US Shit. Okay we'll be in watched washed F._A.. Or form where do you just want bud you yet yeah for two years the F._B._i.. I tracked Bill Keebler and now he sees them everywhere. They're watching him when he smokes in his backyard. He goes to the grocery store. They're hiding in plain sight serving coffee at Denny's just to get to him. It's not everyday you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and I have to say for a while talking to Keebler. I felt like the F._B._I.. Had totally missed the mark and basically manipulated otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when I asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work your ideal situation with the federal government the state government would that look like like what would that would that running their own themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be the the government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs. He says that the government can do it's thing trading with China in Korea but is no damn business running Utah Georgia or Texas then he starts talking about how Muslims are taking over schools. You can't do a pledge of allegiance in our school with now we got Muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like Muslims James. I asked Keebler. Give me an example where this was happening but he just said number places yeah they have taken over host cities. They WANNA stop prayer. They won't stop all the American stuff boy scouts and everything I make an Islam they're out in the streets right mean with hundreds of imbalanced shutdown whole rose in concert standing over mixture. Nobody eruption are you serious badly tanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup. Draft will end April Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best and slaughtering Muslims in the streets of America at the worst and it's all informed by his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this is the kind of talk brought the F._B._I.. To him don't cops now. They're dressed up. They got well. It looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god it was preaching Christianity to up there and he's been arrested. It's on the Internet right now need to get homework. You think the federal you think the federal government is involved in that or you just think that it should be no shock at this point to tell you that Keebler is also also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him and HE HATES BARACK. Obama thinks he's a part of some deep state plot to turn America into Muslim only nation but his the agreement that they put him in the president isn't too he would make way for more Muslims to be of getting the United States Ness. What's actually come out recent? I wanted to news some reporters. Here has made president of more Muslims. Yes that's the arranged to be able. I love like Soros is finding a lot of a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born they keep alive long enough. The Oregon's developed in Joachin and hardship for parts at this point in our interview Keebler is looking at Ryan than I like. We're crazy like how do we not know any of this. I don't know none of this. We're looking at Keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe this stuff at this point in our conversation. It was hard to know how to continue talking to Keebler. I feel like I understand how far down a conspiratorial spiritual rabbit hole. You have to be nor to detonate a bomb that helps me understand Glenn Jones to but at the same time Keebler is a big and that bigotry has clouded his entire perspective on the world keebler his this whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups this is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author Jesse Walker to help with a guy like Keebler in context Walker wrote a book called the United States of of Paranoia. I wanted to understand the rule that conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in the Cold War era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the John Birch society sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties sixties from fierce where all the <hes> the enemy is based in Moscow furious where the enemy is based in New York and <hes> manipulating Moscow and then in the nineties after the Cold War ended events like Ruby Ridge in Waco L. happened conspiracy shifted again but in the nineteen nineties you lose the context of the Cold War and so it's much easier to just sort of see Washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the Internet and while I'm not so who who argues that the Internet made people more paranoid made people more conspirists I do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who had previously been much more <hes> separate from one another. You know Keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for target for their anger he was in the army fighting communism. When the Cold War ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called Patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and Muslims and women in an abortion doctors the bill and George Soros Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama the deep state? He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask Keebler. Where's all this going in his mind during the Obama Administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely ran me to Lesser Central Command Post Him we'll go from there? We start operations at at that point that would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's what's think trump declared martial law it would be more controlled manner well? He's not come after Patriots. Relation do not know now she there you go pushing a racist. I asked you know they got an able oh so angry when I asked him. If this entire world shaded conspiracies government cabals it's really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about Sharia law and evasions invasions at the border how Muslims are plague in Christian nation like America. He tells me I'm off base to ask if this all really comes down to bigotry Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas. He's not willing to back down from them that how much is clear when Ryan awesome at different question. What do you think happens if the Democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges abroad? What do you think happens with the Patriot? I'll that's all just what I'm here seeing on the Internet. All bets are off. Was I'll bet you off take their bill. Keebler guy who tried to blow up government building in who lives on a steady stream of hate from the Internet says that he's had enough if anything were ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are putting retaliation. They want revenge. They won't payback for a lot of things his abortion crap what had milivoy what has happened our children what has happened to the our streets whereas in our schools people want <hes> retribution. They want what Shit Stop. I still don't know what to make Keebler. I'm not sure you can really tell us anything about Glen Jones but if you look at Keebler on what changed before four and after the Bunkerville and Malheur standoffs the biggest differences that afterward the F._B._i.. Turner's world upside down pushed him toward violence. It's not illegal to believe racist things. Our country is built on the the idea that you have the right to complain about the government so it's not really clear to me at the F._B._I.'s own conspiring to get keebler help. Take a dangerous guy off the streets for a few years or made a blowhard into a radical who could snap if the political winds change but what I do think keebler case makes clear is that he's somebody who can be influenced into taking action keillor's paranoia and belief in nearly every conspiracy he comes across seems to open this crack in his worldview that seemingly anyone can exploit. He's an attack dog waiting for a command. It happened with the F._B._i.. When he pushed the button and happened was Lavoix finicky him when he plotted trap beal agents in a memo included with his court records? The government wrote that after keebler pushed the button on their bomb he told the agents this isn't about Lavoix. It's what he stood for. So keebler Glenn Jones make at least two people in two months timeframe invoking Finnigan's his name is they carried out a violent action which got me wondering about how many more people influenced by what finicky supposedly stood for and if those people really knew what he stood for or if they had just as keebler might say read it on the the Internet Phantom seems to have this outsized influence on the Patriot movement because he died so why does some deaths fade away and others become catalysts for violence. That's next time on Bundy Ville that was Lisa Tilly host of Bundy Ville. This episode was written and produced by Leah Ryan has and me Peter for Greg Music and sound design by Robbie Carver Bonneville has editorial oversight from Kelley Stout Mike Dang and Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda especial. Thanks David Stocky.

Finnigan Keebler cliven Bundy Panetta Keebler Jones Glenn Jones Oregon keebler Josh cluff Josh Ryan Harrison Lavoix Finchem Finnigan Bundy Ville federal government Bundy ranch Tiffany cluff Utah Keebler Josh cluff Nevada Bill Keebler
7X13 ANG PAIN | B1 GANG ADVENTURE AND MYSTERY SERIES BOOK 7

Stories Philippines Podcast

18:41 min | 2 months ago

7X13 ANG PAIN | B1 GANG ADVENTURE AND MYSTERY SERIES BOOK 7

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Sina Sabatini Gino Simone Darius Mike Iba NATO Keith Morgan Gino NABUCCO Akiko Obama Madame Bucknell Gino Adore Busey Madonna Della Beata Nina Jean Nick Saban Don Momentum Simone Dr Sonali Nikkan Sabine Alishan Simone Dario Seena Sarah Sarah Sandino Bouma bynum
Bundyville Revealed

Reveal

51:35 min | 1 year ago

Bundyville Revealed

"From the center for investigative reporting m._p._r. X. is real. I'm l. Let this month to to mass. Shootings happened within hours of each other over. Thirty people were killed. Afterwards people asked familiar question. How could this be happening reading today. We're going to be tackling that question by looking at how a group of people with extremist ideas embraced violence to get their way and how their beliefs leafs spread and in some ways become more dangerous. The story takes us back to january two thousand sixteen. The sun is shining in the sky but the air is frigid in a small oregon town man in a cowboy hat and a thick winter flannel climbs up a snow bank at the edge of a grocery store parking lot and calls out to a crowd of his supporters. I'm asking you to follow me and go to the merrier national wildlife refuge and we're gonna make a harsh stand. That's ammon bundy. He's short speech on that snow. Bank kicked off a six week armed standoff with the federal government in a remote bird sanctuary in the middle of winter. It's crucial social. They you understand what's going on here. What this issue is truly about. It's about our federal government taking over private property. This is bundy's second armed standoff. He and his supporters believed that the federal government has no right to public lands and should turn them over to the states amens father cliven cliven bundy had for decades us public land to graze his cattle but refused to pay the federal fees in twenty fourteen. The federal government came to collect elect and that ended in the first armed standoff with the bundys at their ranch in bunkerville nevada. We take you back to the standoffs because they lead directly to our story today. How anti-government groups and individuals surface to support the bundy's didn't go away when the bundy's did instead over over the past few years people within those groups have become more emboldened and willing to use violence to get what they want today. We're teaming up with the podcast has bundy ville produced by oregon public broadcasting and long rates to see how the violence that started with the bundys has spread bonnevilles hosts. Lisa tilly joins me now now. Elliot hey has gone so before we get to season to remind us what happened to the bundy's after those two standoffs came to an end both of those ended ended with these trials that a lot of critics would say the government botched so with the nevada case. They ended in a mistrial in oregon. They ended in acquittals for for the bundy brothers and their co-defendants so what's motivating the bundy's. How did they get to the point of the first standoff. I think to understand the bundy family family you kind of have to understand that where they come from. There's a real kind of anti-government sentiment that a lot of people share you can look to <hes> when the mormons came west in eighteen hundreds <hes> part of the reason they did that was to get away from the federal government but then the government came to them and sort of started this idea that a lot of mormons in that area feel that they were persecuted for their religion by the government so all of this kind of led to cliven and bundy's standing off with the government in two thousand fourteen saliha how those religious beliefs cut of drive this this confrontation with the federal government the bundy's hold a pretty specific set of fringe religious beliefs that a lot of mormons would not agree with and in fact the mainstream mormon church in salt lake city wouldn't agree with so so my reporting led me to this thing called the white horse prophecy which is basically this kind of urban legend among mormon communities that that that some people believe joseph smith the prophet of the church told <hes> early mormons that they would settle in the rocky mountains and that one day the u._s. Constitution solution would hang by a thread and it would be up to the mormon people to save that from ruin now. The church in salt lake doesn't think this is actually a real prophecy but the the bundy family does and a lot of other people in these kind of anti-government communities also believe that they believe that their fight against the government is them actually saving being the constitution from ruin so where do the bundy's motivations and beliefs overlap with other groups that you've been tracking sense. If you look at the the anti-government anti-government movement you might remember things like ruby ridge and the waco standoff with the branch davidians and both of those events ended and people dying hang at the hands of the government a lot of those were kids so the anti-government groups use those instances as recruitment tools times when they can say look look the federal government will come after people who live differently or do things their own way and they kind of turn a blind eye to the laws that were being broken and by those people involved in ridge in waco so those events really informed cliven bundy and his belief that the government was after people so then when they came him to collect his grazing fees he was seeing it as just the next chapter of ruby ridge and waco but more recent turning point happened at the second bundy standoff there was a shooting of one of the leaders of the occupation and that's going on to inspire people to this day yeah that man that was killed during the occupation was a guy named la voie finicky so during the occupation authorities had orchestrated a traffic stop in a rural area wi- with no cell reception where they could easily arrest the leaders of the occupation so he pulled over these two cars and they arrest ammon bundy arrest several other people but lavoix finicky <hes> decided to drive away from that traffic stop and actually tried to blow through a roadblock drive around it into the snow and then he he jumped out of the car all of that was caught on tape and you narrate for us in the first season of bundy ville the scene picks up right after the voi- finnick jumps out of his car and warning. This is tape of a police shooting. Someone fires two shots that hit the truck. He stumbles through knee-deep snow. It keeps shouting. His hands are up at first then he reaches for his jacket. Pocket inside is loaded handgun. He he puts his hands up again and he reaches hands up reach. Finally police do shoot him. He never managed to grab the gun. So investigators released this video and in two different vantage points one was aerial real footage from a law enforcement drawn. The other was taken by smartphone by people inside the cab of the truck so watching that video you see everything unfold. I'd like you there. How did this incident add more fuel to the fire for the anti-government movement well. The response was almost immediate. <hes> shortly after the shooting a memorial popped up at the snowbank where people who supported the bundy's in the anti-government movement talked about it like it was a murder or an assassination or kind this carefully orchestrated hit <hes> by the government on on a member of the patriot movement even though it was so clear from that footage that you saw these two angles and he saying you're going to have to shoot shoot me that that it was unjustified police shooting so in his death i really found in my months even years of investigation that it it becomes really intertwined in with the militia groups in these anti-government groups that showed up at the bundy's standoffs and it became this target for their anger and that's where you pick up with season two tracking those other groups tells a little about them like who they are and what are they doing sure at both of the bundy's high profile standoffs you saw groups like the oath keepers which is one of the largest most well-known militias across the country came to their side. You saw another militia group called the three percenters chapters chapters from nearby states coming to their side on my reporting. I started to see these other threats picking up of white supremacy and violence in these ideologies that had been there long before these two standoffs. I think it's important to note that groups like the oath keepers were actually in charlottesville taking and the side of the old rate during the protests that happen there yeah and i think if it these are groups that generally wouldn't be very fired up about ranching rightly the bundy's sort of provided a great platform to fight the government and that's often. I think what the takeaway that my reporting has found is that it's it has very little to do with the the constitution has very little to do with ranching oftentimes is just looking for new ways to fight off the government and to kind of force <hes> a a belief system like what we saw it at charlottesville on display that's lee host of the podcast series bundy ville so how does that belief system mm-hmm inspire violence when we come back lee investigates that by heading to the scene of a bombing in the fateh mcconnell explosive. That's coming up on reveal from the center for investigative. Reporting impe are ex <music> you from the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. viz is reveal ville. I'm outlet today. Were teaming up with the creators of the podcast bundy ville from oregon public broadcasting and long rates their second season dropped a couple of weeks ago and they're investigating some acts of domestic terror that connected to the bundy's supporters season two begins with a bombing in the summer of twenty sixteen that i bet you never heard of a warning before we get started. This story contains some violent scenes his money ville host lisa tilly panetta is this gravelly town on the nevada side of the border with utah about three hours north of las vegas a desert outpost that was founded in the eighteen sixty s by mormon pioneers panetta is god country and such a western cliche that i literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle tolls street not much happens here but that wasn't the case on july thirteenth two thousand sixteen nine one one. What is your emergency. Hello ma'am ma'am cake for me. Okay and i i can barely hear. You said he was gonna kill you. He said he's calling explosives. You can't are you away from the home. Mm-hmm tiffany cluff was inside her house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was going to blow her house up she should get the kids and leave and demand then lit the fuse on the bomb he'd put inside. The house walked to his car. Got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head and then everything blew up <music> shrapnel went everywhere curving in long arcs over the town just down the street. The county sheriff's black black smoke and a mushroom cloud billowing into the sky just a moment but i do need conditional information from the okay here. Also she cooks. We have one dispatcher time. She calls back in jail any book it right now. In your nine hundred starts going crazy. All all all nine lines all administrative. I just couldn't y'all that's lincoln county sheriff jerry lee. He lives down the street. He had no idea what was going on a who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bomber guy who came with glenn jones came into your your house up our house cheerfully was standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grab the keys to who is patrol rig and drove toward the chaos and i literally felt that in my chest i felt the concussion in my chest then i could see the russian cloud coming up over the earth in the world. I could hear the power <music>. This was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany kalev recognize the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so i grabbed the troll rig and by the time i got to my patrol car. The second explosion happened in the more he told us about it. The crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling vehicles in. We actually had to weave through cars that get into the to where the houses and we waved as stop. Stop stop. You're over body parts. I said what you run around with body parts and that's what they said look over there. Look over there settle eggs from the belt down lanes the road the first bomb blew up the house of tiffany and her husband josh cluff. They were nurses in town and lived there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened in the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car park next to the house and the man inside the bomber was glenn jones. A former nurse who used to work with josh jones was the only person hurt in the bombing but when sheriff lee pulled up to the scene he had no way of knowing that it was absolute mayhem like so there's body parts everywhere lee is also the town's coroner and when he pulled up to the scene of the bombing he thought his top priority was identifying. Whoever got hurt you can't really identify someone by just their legs so he started looking for the rest of the body eighty and we did not actually find the over torso which is what we needed for identification. I don't care about the. I mean do care but that's not why i need i need. I need legs. I mean i need fingerprints. I need dental records any that type of stuff to be able to identify somebody. It took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of glenn jones when they did. He wasn't laid out on his back back and easy to identify. He was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Ours it is but even more bizarre is zet when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to get fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said d._n._r. Which do not resuscitate and the phone number for the victim of the house is phone number very bizarre stupid question. That's my producer. Ryan has when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system along with <hes> <music>. Ask about glenn jones and they'll say they knew him. Nice sky blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic and tells me they wouldn't want to speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town and then offer an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of workplace grievance between glenn jones and josh cluff josh at one time was glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends glenn even helped josh build his house in pennock but several months before the bombing glenn leftist job at the hospital around the same time he also lost his nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe glenn blamed. Josh share flea tells me within hours of the bombing. It became an f._b._i. Investigation we also had the bomb squad and everything from las vegas. They brought up cadaver sniffing dogs. I mean they brought auto the robot. That was the whole thing i mean. There's a big show the next day all the f._b._i. Told me when asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the f._b._i. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear nobody in town could really answer my questions and outside of panetta. Not many people people know about it. The national news didn't cover it. This was a bombing on american soil and sure no one was hurt except the bomber himself but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story. It's only after i left panetta that i found a possible answer answer that pointed to something beyond petty disagreement between coworkers so after visiting aca. I started calling around to try to get answers. I found out that glen jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army national guard hard but he never saw combat. I also learned that he had been living in kingman arizona in an r._v. Park right before the bombing happened after the bombing coming. The kingman police department rated glen jones's r._v. They found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals with jones's name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for bomb. One detective said quote the entries indicated that glenn jones had been approached by subject identified as josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device. The intended target that officer rhode was identified as fourth of july b._l._m. Mm field office. That's the bureau of land management the same federal government agency that got into the initial dispute with the bundys but here's where things get murky erkki because the fourth of july came in went that year nothing happened and by july thirteenth johnson decided instead to target josh cluff. Here's sheriff carefully. I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point and they were very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would have wanted to bomb a beal field office. It turned out there was it goes back to the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge oregon when one of the group's leaders lavoix finicky vinnicombe was shot and killed. We'll try to avoid that police barricade in two thousand sixteen when the bomb went off in nevada at the club home finicky was already dead ed and the patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering americans everywhere you look in the patriot movement. You'll see vinnicombe cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People write songs about him the about accountable own. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report in kingman. Police wrote that there is an entry in jones's notebook indicating that lavoix finn comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beale office and that quote josh is the cousin of lavoie vinnicombe. I was able to confirm the josh. Cliff is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved loved so i asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way before the the bombing but we did see an anti-government side to cluff. He didn't want to give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the gist was that at the hospital ospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for themselves and cleft wasn't having it yet really angry started yelling being a little bit of an eye opening about how josh felt about government overreach. It's unclear whether cluff and jones were working together to bomb the beal building at first and something went wrong or jones working alone and decided to bomb tom clubhouse for some other reason so what happened between the two of them. Cluff is never given any straight answers about jones or lavoix or bomb at office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up would few belongings. They could salvage the move to idaho again. Police have not said that the family family has done anything wrong only confirmed that they did in fact got in touch with us on facebook and ask for an interview finally after few messages ages. He wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past months later. I found an email forum when i reached out again and i tried one more time to get cleft to say something i send him the evidence i had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin voi- finnigan so he responded quote those were terrible times for my family which you're trying to move past at the i did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement. Men have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. Glenn jones was planning to bomb a beal building an appeared to have begun as a response to the death of lavoix finicky him joneses plot was a continuation of the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at bundy ranch but then for some reason jones baum clubs house instead of the beal building in the years since the bundy's high-profile standoffs more acts of of extremist violence have been popping up in the news they aren't necessarily inspired by the patriot movement but some of them share some of the scene anti-government white supremacist beliefs certainly the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight. A florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals just like barack obama hillary clinton and george soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cabal was accused of sending all those devices to critics of president. Donald trump or georgia man killed a cop killer. Tear guthrie claim to be considered himself sovereign citizen nation to himself. He didn't recognize police. It's already and considering consider and i wondered if the pinnacle bombing was perhaps an early sign of this increasingly radical violence a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless the less into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent. I couldn't ask jones why he blew up the clubhouse or if the the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at plenty ranch and who knew voi- finnigan who also tried to blow up a government building ending that same summer and when we come back leah tracks down that man who said what happened at the bundy ranch served as a rallying cry i to me it was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short boston. Tea party parent civil war like that but it was a wakeup call. This is revealed from the center for investigative reporting and p. R. x. <music> the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. This is reveal. I'm outlet it back. In february at a truck stop outside salt lake city utah lisa tilly and ryan has of the podcast bundy have come to guy in bill keyboard. Keebler blur has been involved with the patriot movement since the bundy's first standoff with the federal government in bunkerville nevada. He says he ran security there afterwards he he started his own militia fifty seven year old william keebler is known by the f._b._i. As a commander of a citizen militia group called the patriots defense force in june of two thousand sixteen that would he hit the button to designate what he thought was a bomb to destroy a building owned by the bureau of land management but it turns out the bomb was a fake komo undercover f._b._i. Agents had given him the device. He pled guilty to the attempted bombing and served time in jail. Now he's out on probation. Leeann ryan pick up the story at that restaurant and salt lake smokes and coffee real quick. They'll keep learn looks like a shriveling old ranch chand. He's got leathery skin. Smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen and i had a massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery. We're at a denny's tucked into the corner of the truckstop for most most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company. We ease into the conversation. Ryan and i are just trying to get a feel for who we're talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. I'm in the army bravo. Infantry went to a lotta specialized training fort bend when germany i'll l. ended there and i think one of the friday saturday morning i woke up on russian communist. Russian border says he also knows his way around computers. Do i used to do costa taster trish. They can't break and they still have nothing. I mean good anyway even says he has a black belt in kung fu fhu studied numerous black belt in four different styles. He says he created his own system of kung fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly rambo your own and i should be clear. I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but i also wasn't in utah taught to figure out whether he got third place in the kung fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the f._b._i. But i that meant convincing him that we weren't f._b._i. Agents raid to talk to people like you. I'm gonna be honestly it would surprise me. Both david pulled out. I just went shot in what i've seen because in keebler world everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me his story yeah. I've been on borrowed time for years. I came here because they wanted to hear keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent but just a few minutes into the interview. What i'm really wondering is how did the f._b._i. Decide to focus on this guy. Is this old. The man in poor health really the most dangerous person in the patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces his training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part bill keebler story starts in twenty fourteen when he spent about two weeks and bunkerville ville nevada cliven bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the bundy's hadn't paid their grazing being fees and the b. M. had come to collect their cattle. The fact that keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back. Then keebler says he was a member of the oath keepers a militia associated with the patriot movement and by his account at bunny ranch he he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. Leave north actually stop. A lot of people like them play out their stop. People wanna shoot people. I don't want to rehash bundy ranch but the long short of it is no one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the bundy's cows were released in the agents laughed. Keebler was pumped up on the patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events events in this country. This has his history short at boston tea party to several. We're not like that but it was a wakeup. Geico call so in the following months back at home in utah. Keebler started his own militia. He called it patriots defense force or p._d._f. F was a half dozen or so guys got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. He government peppers. We've talked a lot about going off grid about what to do. When things went sideways keebler even showed people how to raise chickens and rabbits for meat meet then a few months later keebler got a phone call from someone he'd met at bunkerville lavar finicky. He wanted me to basically in his place and give him the support that we gave the bundy's back. Then lavoix finicky was just rancher in arizona and keeler said he was building up to his own bunkerville styles standoff with the m. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but i do know that around this time in the late summer of two thousand fifteen finnigan was becoming agitated with the bureau of land management veal a._m. Sarah zero government has said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. He was making that pretty obvious on his youtube page. No none of these bureaucrats crafts do we allow here county none of ever accountable to us emma harvey county. This is the definition of tearing from the way keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and keebler advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics addicts to anyone who'll listen was happy to bring his militia to come help him prepare for the confrontation that the bundy's we got there after the fact if we knew it was coming. We could be prepared because they were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come. Just take all his cal but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for finnish uh-huh cattle records from the beal showed fit income only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven bundy owed more than a million in dollars accrued over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop finicky him from preparing for the worst or keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the bundy's had done at finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto. The landry grazed his cattle and then spring a trap. I don't mean ambush salt and killed and shoot none of that cracks. That's worth thank everybody tresor preser- ad-lib ship the plan was to let the be on the property and then use an excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out at certain place so when they come up and he'll them cattle that can't get up here we keep alert saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what i saw the bundy ranch or an oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and i had to wonder then what are they gonna. Keep them hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before i could get an answer key told me that another member of his militia wanted to blow them all up brad miller's idea. Oh wait till you get right to your brother. It was just up. Keebler says brad miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that. I killing mask to you're killing whoever's truck but brad miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass. He was actually an undercover f._b._i. V. i. agent in fact at varying times. There were three confidential informants and three undercover f._b._i. Agents in keillor's militia and so if you take away keebler the f._b._i. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of p._d._f. Militia all this time finn keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents in court documents their records of text messages one of the other other undercover f._b._i. Agents who went by the name jake davis sent to his handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open pandora's whereas box. I'm worried about our liability in another text. Davis worried about miller's continued taunting keebler quote. I'm all pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas it's like when miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in his head over the course of their investigation the f._b._i. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the west. I patriot movement gatherings. They paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal facilities way out in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal and building that he had scouted in your finnigan's ranch finchem by then had been killed by police after trying to drive around that police blockade oregon over the next couple of months and the f._b._i. Made keebler fake pipe bomb and then on june twenty first twenty sixteen keebler in the rest of his militia traveled to arizona and set the bomb. I'm outside. The building. Keyword pushed the button on a fake detonator the f._b._i. Gave him and then the next morning they arrested him. Topsy picnic brought me a handcuff. This guy comes in dressed bigger shitting grin on his face or allowed to see mr taber trying to brush your sorry ass for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants armaments and two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert and it's not every day you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and i have to say for a while talking to keebler i. I felt like maybe the f._b._i. Missed the mark and manipulated and otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation. Things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when i asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government the stink government. What would that look like like what would that what would that world learn their own themselves themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be. The government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs affairs. He says that the government can do its thing trading with china and korea but is no damn business running utah georgia or texas then he starts talking about how muslims are taking over schools. You can't do the pledge of allegiance in school. Were now we got muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like muslims i._s. Keebler you give me an example where this was. It's happening but he just said number places yeah. They have taken over host cities. They want to start prayer. They won't stop all the american stuff. The boy scouts and everything make an islam. They're out in the streets. Writing with hundreds of imbalance shutdown rose copter standing over mix. Nobody are you serious badly. Thanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup trucks will in their pro. Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best an attacking muslims in the street at worst and it's all informed his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this. This is the kind of talk that brought the f. b. i. to him. I don't know tops now dressed up. They got what looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god. It was preaching christianity to up there. He's been arrested on the internet right now need to homework homework. You think the federal the federal government is in volved in that or you just think it should be no shock at this point to tell you that keebler is also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him. He hates barack. Obama thinks he's part of what conspiracy theorists call the deep deep state shadowy government cabal agreement today put him in the present is that he would make way for more muslims to be of the united states. That's actually come out recently won the news reporters. He was made president so more muslims the u._s. He arranged to be able to like soros his financing a lot of <hes> a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia. You're going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born to keep it alive long enough the organs to develop didn't kilkare okay and harsh it for parts at this point in our interview. Keebler is looking at ryan. Emmy like we're crazy. Like how do we not know any of this this. I can't believe i don't know none of this. We're looking at keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe stuff talking talking to keebler. I feel like i understand how far down conspiratorial rabbit hole you have to be in order to detonate a bomb that helps me understand glenn jones to oh but at the same time keillor's bigotry as clouded his entire perspective on the world keillor's whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups. This is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author jesse walker. Tell put a guy like keebler and context walker wrote. A book called the united states of paranoia. I wanted to understand the role. The conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in a cold war era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the john birch society <hes> sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties from you know fears where off the <hes> the enemy is based in moscow fears where the enemy is based in new york and <hes> manipulating moscow nineties after the cold war ended ended events like ruby ridge waco happened conspiracy shifted again and so it's much easier just sorta see washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the internet and while i'm not someone who argues that the internet made people more paranoid made people boomer conspiracy theorists i do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who it previously been much more <hes> separate from one another bill keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for a target for their anger. He was in the army fighting communism. When the cold cold war ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and muslims and women and abortion doctors bill clinton and george soros hillary clinton and brock obama the deep state. He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask keebler. Where's this going in his mind. The shit hits the fan incident incident during the obama administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely around me to central command post and we'll go from there we operations at that point. That would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's i think if trump declares martial law would be more controlled manner <hes> he's not come after patriots demolition. Do not white people know there. You go pushing the racist bullshit. The people got angry when i asked him. If this entire world she'd conspiracies government balls is really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about sharia law evasions at the border how muslims are a plague in a christian nation like america. He tells me i'm off base to ask at this. All really comes down to bigotry. Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas and he's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when ryan awesome different question happens if the democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges the bra. What do you think happens with the patriots over. I'll bet off just from what i'm hearing seeing on the internet. All bets are off with you. Bet your off take their word keebler guy who tried to blow up a government building in who lives is on a steady stream of hate from the internet says he's had enough if anything were to ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are wanting retaliation revenge. They won't pay back for a lot of things this abortion crap what what is happening to our children what has happened to our streets whereas happened in our schools. People want retribution rich bution listening to that story. You might think the government spending a lot of resources versus to stop people like bill keebler but in reality. He's the exception not the rule. Don't get me wrong the f._b._i. Carries out plenty of sting operations nations. They're just usually focus on terrorist acting in the name of islam. Even though there's way more acts of right wing terrorism we looked at this with type investigations sagacious a few years back and found that half of the incidents carried out in the name of islam are stopped with stinks half. Meanwhile stings were used to stop just twelve percent of white supremacists anti-government and other right wing terrorism in other words law enforcement. Usually only folks is on right wing violence after the bombs explode leah. I want to get back to the last thing that we heard from bill keebler that people want retribution. What does he mean by that. There's really been a transition. I think in the year since the bundy's standoffs <hes> a lot of the anti-government movement suddenly loves loves the government under trump which kind of is is counterintuitive right like the anti-government movement is suddenly pro government because trump is talking about things that they care about deeply things like anti immigration issues anti-muslim issues and trump is this kind of anti-government president so retribution for guys like bill keebler is seeing the extremes of those things coming true finally coming to fruition so a country with no immigrants no more islam no more tolerance of anyone wight christian people. I mean the two things the idea that these these groups are anti-government and the fact that suddenly they are pro government under trump is not surprising to me at all because i think the underpinning of both of these things <unk> are white supremacy. How does that play out in anti-government movements. There's this kind of coded language of of racism and bigotry that that drives the groups and in that that you can hear under a lot of what they say so yeah it's not it's not really surprising that after years of being mostly dormant a lot of these anti-government groups had a big resurgence under the first black president under president obama so you can see evidence of the way white supremacy rides along with all of these anti-government anti-government flash points in the last thirty years so like randy weaver the guy who is at the center of the ruby ridge standoff. He was known to hang out at the area nations compound compound in north idaho. <hes> the oklahoma city bomber timothy mcveigh was inspired by a novel called the turner diaries which sort of envisions this <hes> <hes> future dominated by a race war. So what does he have a what people like bill keebler will be doing between now and the presidential election next year i i think bill keebler specifically focused on getting off probation kind of disappearing into the woods. I guess if he could <hes> said he wanted to move out of utah where he feels like the federal government is watching him. He's left social media and not kind of thing but he's still occasionally talks about conspiracies pro-trump messages ages. He's very excited about some of the racist comments that that president trump has been saying as of late so you kind of see a an individual like him him as really an getting excited about trumpet also getting excited about these anti democrat anti liberal conspiracies that that spread like wildfire on on the internet. Why does the government have such a hard time. Stopping these kind of domestic groups and i'm thinking that you know when we look at this. We're primarily talking about white. Supremacists premesis and the government doesn't seem to have a problem tackling other types of terrorism. Why does the government seemed to have such a hard time stopping shopping these groups with violent tendencies. I think it's about priorities. After nine eleven there is a major shift towards focusing on cracking down on international terrorism awesome and it took the focus off of domestic anti-government groups that saw such a resurgence during the nineteen nineties so. I think that your question is right on and what's changed now to stop them. So what else do you uncover in the rest of the season of bundy ville. I answered all kinds of questions. One of those is that i looked at how the anti-government movement recruits other people to do violence and who stands to benefit from that violence so those questions took me all around the american west a- actually led me to a really secretive religious community that i long heard about up in eastern washington that is thought of as this real patriot friendly place yes and i think could be thought of as something of an origin point for a lot of the ideas that the western anti-government movement is excited about liza tilly. Thank you so much coach thank you. We want to thank the whole team of bundy ville for their help. As we said the full run of season two is just out with more twists and turns highly recommend you check it out. You can also read the series on long reach dot com slash bundy ville bundy villes produced by long reads in oregon public broadcasting our partners and bring you this week. Show many thanks to the o._p._b. Editors ryan has anna griffin and long read editors mike dang and kelly stout in fact checker matt giles our executive producer. Kevin sullivan edited today show with help from reveals. Emily harris and g amini are reduction managers news. One day in the hosa are sound design. Team is the dynamic duo j. breezy. Mr jim briggs and fernando-mania room are c._e._o.'s krista schaumburg mad thompson. Thompson is our editor in chief our theme music is by colorado might support for bills provided by the raven david logan foundation the john d and catherine t. macarthur foundation the jonathan logan family foundation the ford foundation the hazing simon's foundation the democracy fund and the ethics excellence in journalism foundation reveal is a co-production at the center for investigative reporting p._r. Ex i'm outlets and remember there is always more to the story yeah <music>.

cliven bundy william keebler federal government oregon glenn jones keebler utah Donald trump bundy ville Leeann ryan bundy bundy ranch cliven cliven bundy sheriff lee bill keebler nevada arizona barack obama beal building president
Viajando 68: El tiempo en Canad-este

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Viajando 68: El tiempo en Canad-este

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Episode 203 :      18  age

Digital Ankit Podcast | Motivation, self-help, digital marketing In Hindi

11:46 min | Last month

Episode 203 : 18 age

"Gosto. Update. Occupied maturity. Economic. Problem we will up crisis or. Job. or we are just job-seeker. Data Look Job Kitchen Karmic John Miller. Or to keep an image, Saudi, job be. The problem is invisible problem off by cigarette problem or Gaba. Assistance us on me. APPS are web cargo global. Luck you cookie. Bossy Lugo key John Kelly is tourism an. Great. Job Abebe reliable. You have to be grateful. Liquid County disabled determine cocky about Garang. Up. Guarantee Lima I mean up need alleged me Carlton or Grab Eagles Dina grew up eleven what It. Ought to keep my is lever too many guilty too much donkey legal. Tina, go. To the Gaga Kelty Kazakh. By what? humdrum. Has People each other examples, pills, Cuba gives. The. Listen. For. Government jobs. Simba's even left without. Processed die below India MIATA Luca. Pitra Todd process key to. Problem Malone new todd process. To plan the mindset in Katmandu Julia Shuki issued Usama won't Way? Brennan. The RIB. 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By seemingly any pocket running bus that Shit. Too many cooks Nannies Eka. Thinking Gianluigi. Panicky delivery. Your Metro Bara. OR PASSAGE VOLUSIA TO MILWAUKEE, exciting COMPETI-. To keep my parminder don't really line either. Parent index was Yup nappy. Ghana which we have begun to isis of he mindset the Lucchese better go up. Way broadcaster tying up corporal depend on for. Out. Walk be but judge. Would say depend on our color up near the commercial. To see you any company Banaba. Karnataka job. Creator Linda. which. Job. You have to be chopped creator just not big. Job. Seeker be job glitter. Forgotten. To please circle in school holiday up budget Nagoya, south, Korea Blue Bluh Bluh but as India looks up, jumped to balcony. Create Up Job Baena job with the new job deeper, we ought to be up of new discovery Kobe Hunter job seeker engage. In anchor. To set up is country McCoy is yard up this darker to blame to cross cutting up is Kelly job. 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Leve de Koning hoezee, hoezee, hoezee!

ENTRPNR.

25:15 min | 7 months ago

Leve de Koning hoezee, hoezee, hoezee!

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Episode 4: The Homeland

Bundyville: The Remnant

22:35 min | 1 year ago

Episode 4: The Homeland

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bonneville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day help you with whatever you wanNA create plans start just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates just a really quick warning before we start this episode contains mild wild swearing and descriptions of racist violence and ideologies that maybe upsetting to some listeners keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen every fourth the July weekend religious community way up North Eastern Washington Wilson event called the God in country celebration people girl hamburgers and hotdogs kids put on a play about America it could be a scene from a lot of small conservative towns. The kids do a choreographed flag-waving routine. The boys were red white and blue t shirts tucked into their genes. They sing song for Les Miserables About Liberty in standing up for themselves but this isn't just a celebration of independence got in country is a gathering where people go each year to hear speakers from the Patriot the movement in twenty teen the featured guest at the festival was Ginette Vinnicombe Lavoix Finnigan's widow. I want you to think Berry Pastor Berry A- and bird for hosting me year for hosting this premiere of boy talking long before Ginette Finchem showed the movie about her husband and Oregon she was here to show it in Stevens County me Washington. It's this far flung county way closer to Canada in Idaho then Seattle. It's long been a haven for people who've been trying to hide from the federal government. You're all family. This festival was actually close to the media. The Garden Country Celebration is a notoriously secretive event but someone gave me recordings of the speeches from that day and it struck me how different Ginette Finnigan's words were here compared to when we saw her back in Salem on the V._F._W.. She still talked about government overreach and the conspiracy to kill her husband but she took it further. This time are using labels and the force of government unless you aw she kept using that word lynching. She never used it when I saw her in Salem but here she flipped the word on its head she said the people the Patriot movement mostly white people were the victims that they were being lynched. You're standing and standing with avoid label in in the Lynch mob by her estimation is the media inflicting punishment upon God fearing freedom lovers. It's interesting to me that Ginette say words like this about the so-called oppression of Christian patriots for this place she'd come to one of the whitest parts of the country with a message that white people are the victims of oppression so Lujan is here are you can get a fair trial in our curve federal courts but the reality that somebody like boy was just a rancher never had a speeding ticket or criminal record of anytime we domestic extremists terrorists and they murdered by those controlling our government when I went to Panetta I saw bombing that seemed like a began as a response to the death of avoid finicky him and then I talked to Bill Keebler. You're a guy who says he was targeted by the F._B._i.. Payback for his role in the bunkerville standoff at Bundy ranch for decades. The Patriot movement in the federal government have been locked in this back and forth. We're violence begets. It's violence and both sides try to control the narrative to justify their actions. The feds rewrote keebler story to suit their purposes pushing him until he was as violent as they needed him to be the Patriot movement. Meanwhile has rewritten Lavoie Finnigan saying that he was killed while trying to peacefully protest even though lavoix seemed to be the one searching for a fight and now Ginette has brought that message to Stevens County Washington part of a region that. For the past thirty years has produced white supremacists burn crosses bomb buildings and murdered people then they've justified it with a mix of religion and conspiracy theories so if you wanNA understand the ideology behind the Patriot movement who's being recruited what comes next you have to understand. This part of Stevens County from long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah silly before we get into the story of Stevens County. I WanNa address something that would probably come as a surprise to people listening who aren't familiar with the inland northwest. You might think the North Western U._S.. Is All rain showers and mountains nirvana records coffee shops in weeds stores on every corner right but this part of the northwest. I'm about to tell you about eastern Washington North Idaho it actually it couldn't be less in line with that. Image Deeply Conservative area the West tot and dry in the summer coldest hell in the winner in the past few years. Some people have started to call this region. The American readout a readout is a kind of military fortification and they've been encouraging libertarians improper from around the country to make a home here. They're even read out realtors. We'll sell you a house complete with a bomb shelter so so this episode is about Stevens County but it's also about this region as a whole and you can't talk about the violent history of Stevens County without first understanding the Aryan nations the area nations was a Neo Nazi group with a compound North Idaho but in the summer of Nineteen Ninety eight simple wrong turn by family coming home from a wedding led to its downfall Victoria Keenan and her son. We're looking for a loss wallet when and they turned down a back road for reasons that have never really been explained members of the area nations chased the Keenan's for miles ran them off the road and held the family hostage at gunpoint the KEENAN's would go on to sue the Neo Nazi group group for millions of dollars bankrupting them and then they proceeded to buy the group's compound when it went up for auction. Those buildings were eventually bulldozed effectively destroying the central gathering place for the region's white supremacists forcing forcing them to find new homes new places to meet up so they spread out to nearby communities like Stevens County but before that happened the compound had been beacon to white supremacists and hate groups for decades a reason into gather in this part of the country so probably my first encounter with this was in the early eighties about nineteen eighty or eighty one for more than three decades journalists. Bill Moreland has been documenting steady stream of violence coming out of this area Dan. There's no reporter out there. I no longer track record of covering the white supremacist anti-government movements in the West we had across burning at the nation's in North Idaho and I had been on the staff of the Spokane Daily Chronicle at that point for about a decade and <hes> cross burnings in the northwest and in North Idaho in particular were not an everyday occurrence in the eighties much like today people debated whether covering white supremacists amounted into advertising their ideas was part of the community that some of the areas white residents felt go away if they ignored it. Even as people who weren't white were being terrorized. Moreland says a columnist at the other paper in town thought they shouldn't even be talking about cross burnings. He was of the School of thought that if you ignore them they'll go away by writing about them. All you're doing is giving them publicity and I have never to this day signed onto that belief system and by the way neither do major civil rights organizations reservations according to those groups shining light on the problem is more effective than ignoring it and more Orleans says readers of the paper wanted to know who was burning crosses in their backyard so moreland has photographer are on their way to the cross burning thinking they'll find some nearby hill and shoot photos from there there wasn't a good hill and then they ran into a fence blocking their way so they decided to just drive up to the front gate of the Aryan nations and <hes> so we got there <hes> <hes> it was darkness had sit in and it was July summer evening we were greeted by at least two. Maybe three armed guards one of whom pointed his <hes> his rifle in into the window at my head instead who are you. What are you doing here and demanded identification? I told him out as a reporter for the spokane paper and he said you're not welcome here. Get outta here and I said okay put you down man. I'm not GonNa Challenge and so we turned around Lou and left what moreland would go on to learn is that a guy named Richard Butler founder of the area nations and the most prominent white supremacists in America had chosen this corner of the country to set up shop Butler form the Church Richer Jesus Christ Christian which is Christian identity <hes> religious group and he referred to the area nations as the churches political on people who believe in Christian identity are white supremacists. It's a religion that believes. The people of Color don't have souls the Jews or the spawn of Eve and Satan that the tribes of Israel or white people and his butlers church became more entrenched Moreland kept reporting on it attending cross burnings and ceremonies unease or the K._k._k.. Blessed knives and guns and he started seeing more Christian identity churches popping up one in sandpoint idaho tune Stevens County Washington but the real turning point of violence in the northwest Moreland says says is when a group called the order formed as an offshoot of the area nations and so in one thousand nine hundred three secretly the order is formed in in North Wash on North Eastern Washington unbeknownst to me and everyone else and then but by nineteen eighty-four specifically late in Nineteen eighty-four <hes> basically all hell breaks loose. The order was a group of guys who wanted to start a race war based on a novel called the Turner Diaries. That's the same book that Timothy McVeigh US to justify his bombing on the Murrah building in Oklahoma City about a decade later. It didn't take long for the order to start killing people moreland says litany of violence began in Nineteen eighty-four with the murder of Jewish radio host in Denver a following that there were a robberies of a <hes> adult bookstore in Spokane bombing of a synagogue in Boise <hes> the <hes> robbery of an armored car <hes> up in Seattle in Seattle area <hes> the printing of counterfeit money on the presses of the area nations and in probably the home what are the hallmark crimes was the robbery of armored Carney California that knitted something on the order of Ah you know four to five million dollars in cold cash in the money bags and all these crimes were meant to inspire and bankroll a white revolution. It's easy to look back now and see how they were connected but at the time the F._B._i.. Had trouble figuring out who is committing all of them and this is in an era before the term harassment anything to anybody I mean it's like domestic terrorism. What's that people didn't understand what was going on and so while law enforcement forcement was trying to figure out who they were dealing with Christian identity took root in this remote part of the country then in Nineteen ninety-two a guy named Randy Weaver who had been known taking out of the Aryan nations compound failed failed to show up in court after selling illegal weapons to an A._T._f.? Informant and Moreland reported the story the U._S. Marshals Confronted Weaver and the infamous Ruby Ridge standoff began this was two hours from Stevens County and and militias and other anti-government group's flocked to the remote mountain where the Weaver family lived Ruby Ridge really was a you know a lightning stick if you will <hes> that had occurred and a lot of people after Ruby Ridge came together instead we're never again get federal agents come into our county and you know encircle a cabin. After Ruby Ridge Morlin continued to report on anti-government movement in this entire region and often his reporting brought him to Stevens County Washington go western Stevens County is very rural and sparsely populated just over forty four thousand people live there and it's bigger than some states back east. I asked Moreland to compile what he knew about violence. There came to our meeting with a very very long list. Well Okay you want me walk through this whole list. Is that the that's what three pages is that stuff that's happened tide is even county shit. I walked quickly Sherry so Stevens Morland said that in some some cases Stevens County residents were targeted just because they had Jewish sounding last names the violence was indiscriminate but a couple of prominent cases linked to a place called the ARC. The ARK was a Christian identity church and Stevens County Johny up near the Canadian border so even after the Aryan nations was torn down people could still go to the ARC Morlin told me about a serial killer named Israel Keyes <hes> turns out that he was basically raised in Stevens County me and that he attended the ARC description unity church up there with his parents and the ARC is important because the doctrine of white supremacy preach their lead to more serious violence like the Ki-ho brothers who also attended the Ark and in July live nineteen ninety eight Chevy ki-ho his father Kirby Ki-ho were charging an indictment listing fifty seven separate crimes including five murders Chevy Ki-ho and Daniel Louis Lee were accused of conspiring to build a whites-only area in People's Republic beginning in nineteen ninety-three so they're embar embarking on a whites-only kind of a concept much like the order had done back in the mid eighties <hes> Chevy Ki-ho and Danny Lee was a skinhead were also accused of planning pipe bomb. It was detonated at the entrances for Kansas City. Hall Marlins List is wildly violent and took about twenty minutes to get through so I won't tell you about every murdering Aaron threat but the point is it was all sort of a domino effect of violence that started at the Aryan nations it stretched back decades and continues today. This is a tiny population of people that produces way more than its share of. Violent extremists. It's a history that the people who live in Stevens County can't seem to get away from it's a history that they're always trying to escape John. Smith is the former seventh district senator from Washington State and before he moved to Stevens County he lived with his grandparents in Idaho and other members of the area nations the order and and you know they're chancellery groups came through our house a lot when I was when I was a kid. Smith's grandfather was close with people in the area nations picture a rotating cast of Nazis at your dining room table that was Smith's childhood and he says that what Butler in the area nations ultimately wanted was a white homeland tells the story of when he was a kid and a bunch of guys where at his grandfather's house they were all around the kitchen table with maps laid out and they were strategizing and they are literally literally talking about a violent takeover of several counties in in Idaho. They're talking about how <hes> boy when they get in power <hes> not only are the Jewish bankers going to be hanging from the light poles but all of those blacks who dare look at a woman and then all of those all of those judeo-christian pastors who said it was all okay you know they're going to be right there beside him because they're going to implement righteousness so many of the hateful movements that have started in this part of the country ultimately come back to that idea of whites only haven Smith says he thought leaving home would get him away from racism so he moved to Stevens County Washington with the ideas he was trying to escape had gotten there. I I had viewed northeast Washington is kind of a refuge from what was going on in Boise and when I finally came here I was confronted by some folks who were essentially traveled in the same circles oils is my grandfather and I want to be clear white supremacists in Stevens county where minority even at the peak of their influence but the county is just so big an empty. It's easy to stay off the radar. We'll just like there. There are thousands ends of wonderful people who live here that would never embrace the stuff that we're talking about. It's also the kind of environment where if you WANNA move somewhere and do something where you don't want prying eyes. There's an opportunity for that so so it's space. I think there's there's means opportunity here. Those means an opportunity have long been appalled for radicals trying to make a whites-only homeland built on so-called Christian values and those ideas persist today wherever we come as a country when loving the constitution being a Patriot loving Jesus is extremist match. Shea is a Washington state representative out of Spokane Valley which isn't even in Stevens Wins County because there regularly to talk about creating new state. He calls liberty again. It's already happening in fact I wanNA talk about what has come to be known as the American readout but it's actually not a new idea. It's actually really old idea and this is a map from eighteen sixty and it shows Washington in Idaho essentially connected match as big idea is to sever off eastern Washington from the more liberal western Washington and create a state that embodies his style of Christian values a place shaped by ideology and ruled by Biblical Law. It's an idea that bears striking resemblance to what Richard Butler tried to create with the area nations. Here's Bill Moreland again. Richard Butler wanted awaits only homeland in the northwest which isn't that much different than fifty for state because the fifty first State that Matt Shays talking about is essentially would the demographics of it would be mostly white you but Richard Butler also talked about what he called Mongrel hordes invading the United States across the U._S. Mexican border and now we have a president who talks about rapists murderers. We're invading the United States from across the border so oh well what I heard Richard Butler talk about an spouse and preach about forty seven years ago I'm now hearing from the White House and maybe you're thinking politician say a lot of things and make lots of promises and most of it never happens especially when it's being proposed by a low level conservative lawmaker in a state controlled by Democrats and you'd be right except that match isn't thinking about this in terms of the democratic process. He has a battle plan to force the idea. It's called the biblical basis for war. That's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Leah's Tilly Peter Frick Right and Ryan has all the music in the series was written in performed by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Nick Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research Help from Kim Freda thank you to David Study for his keen ears and thank you to Bill Morlin and all the staff at the Spokane spokesman review for all the work they've done for decades. Reporting on hate groups in the northwest Bundy Ville is a co-production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make the show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation for becoming.

Stevens County Bill Moreland Stevens County Washington Richard Butler Ginette Vinnicombe Lavoix Finn Idaho Oregon spokane Washington North Idaho Ginette Leah America Seattle Randy Weaver Washington North Idaho Canada Boise Bonneville Bundy Ville
Episode 1: The Explosion

Bundyville: The Remnant

26:47 min | 1 year ago

Episode 1: The Explosion

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reasons wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plan start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates before we get started a warning. This episode contains mild wild swearing and scenes of violence that may be upsetting to some listeners. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen so what if I told you that in the summer of twenty sixteen eighteen in a rural western town there was a bombing. You never heard about nine one one. What is Your Majesty short? Ma'am Ma'am take abreast from me okay and I I can barely stand you happened in Perak Nevada a town about three hours north of Las Vegas read on the border with Utah Ah. He said he was going to kill you. He said he's calling for explosives and are you away from the home. It was July Thirteenth Twenty sixteen around eight o'clock in the evening one of those warm summer nights but still feels like the middle of the day Tiffany cluff was insider house with her three daughters when a man came to the door said he was GonNa Blow Oh her house up she should get the kids and leave demand then lit diffuse on the bomb he'd put inside the house walk to his car got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head then and everything blew up shrapnel went everywhere <music> curving and long arc's over the town just down the street the county sheriff's a black smoke a mushroom cloud billing into the sky but I do need additional information from the okay so she cooks. We have one dispatcher to time. She calls back in jail any help appeal right now in nine crazy all the lines title all all allies all administrative also just couldn't y'all physics to try to that's Panetta's Sheriff Sheriff Jerry Lee he lives down the street and he had no idea what was going on who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bombers. Is there anyone injured or do you see anyone injured. Glenn Jones came into your house per house from long reads and Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy fill the remnant. I'm necessarily it was about eight o'clock in the evening. Just normal summer evening people out walking. You know kids riding riding bikes people mowing their lawns and just normal nothing out of the ordinary share flea was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grabbed the keys to his patrol rig and drove toward the chaos. You know my mind is like try going hundred mile an hour tr- trying to figure out what in the world and with you know at that time twenty eight years old I I mean I seen a lot of been experience a lot. I'm still trying to copy on what in the world is going on here. You know cars blow up like that in a movie okay when you see a movie that's how they don't blow up like that. Panetta gets chair of loud noises from a nearby air force base but cheerfully said he knew right away. This was something different and I literally felt in my chest. I felt a concussion in my chest that I could see the mushroom cloud coming up over the air though in the world and here the I could hear the power here that I thought this was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off Tiffany cluff recognize the bomber bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so I grabbed the patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car. The second explosion happens in the more he told us about about it the crazier the story got an we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling their vehicles in we actually had to leave through cars. Get into the to where the houses and we were wave does as stop stop. Stop your body parts. I said what body parts and that's what they said. Look over there. Look over there and there's a subtle leagues from the belt down laying on the road. The first bomb blew up the house of Tiffany and her husband Josh cluff. They were nurses in town on live there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened and the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car parked next to the House and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones a former nurse. We used to work under Josh at the hospital sheriff. Lee pulled up to a scene that was absolute mayhem. I mean like body parts everywhere. Share Flea is a guy with many jobs in Panetta and when he arrived he wasn't sure which job he was supposed to he doing okay so this is a small small town small community small county and we all wear different hats okay and you're gonNA probably get a chuckle out of this but I am also the fire chief here in Pinnock Okay right volunteer all-volunteer see you are also as sheriff. You're also the coroner of the county coroner also correct. I'm on the Emergency Planning Commission for the county. I try to somewhat hold of family. Relate on my father run the ranch so so between all that time a little bit between midnight and four A._M.. Okay so he's at the scene and he's got body parts. That means of coroner hat cheerfully told me and my producer Ryan has that it's his job to identify who's limbs were scattered everywhere but he can't really I._D.. Anyone with just some legs and we did not actually find the upper torso. which is we needed for vacation? I don't care about the late do care but that's not I need torso ended legs any I mean I need fingerprints dental records ending that type of stuff to be able to identify someone took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of Glen Jones when they did he wasn't laid out out on his back and easy to identify he was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Yeah bazaars it is but even more bizarre when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to give fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said D._N._R.. which do not resuscitate my that's my medical? Training is the army's do not resuscitate and phone number for the victims house or the victim. The victim victim of the house is former ribs are there you know I don't even know how to venture. Guess on that. I just that's ask one of the most bizarre things that I've encountered on a death to have somebody tattoo something like that on them. I don't know I don't know he had he had a lot of medical training so I know I know that's why I think d._N._R.. Was He knows what he what does it in the medical d._N._R.. Is Do not resuscitate can ask a stupid question when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. Will I think we looked it up our systems to John. Why did this guy? You're minding my point after the first season of Bundy villa last year I had no intention of making anymore. I wanted to find out why the Bundy family would take on the government twice in why all these really different militia groups flocked to their side for the most part I got answers the Bundy's tapped into an anti-government worldview that exists just under the surface out west in created an image of the true American cowboy for people to rally rally around but after they won their court cases the Bundy's started to disappear they'd gotten what they wanted and they're still running cows on public land without paying their grazing fees and of story right but the anti-government groups who come to their side. They didn't go away the Bundy's brought together the oath keepers sovereign citizens three percenters in the right wing media. All the people who think the government government is out to get them basically the catchall term for these groups is the Patriot movement and that movement didn't go away just because cliven Bundy went back to ranching so before you go any further if you haven't listened to that season go do that now. Season Two is going to build off a lot of the things we talked about last time and actually the first question I had when I came across the story of the bombing in Panetta was whether or not it was connected to the Bundy's the Patriot movement and everything from season one was this extremist violence some form of domestic terrorism or just a dispute between co workers. There wasn't any obvious connection. It was just this weird thing but it's not like bombs Blah everyday in this country and I wanted to know more so producer Ryan has an I flew out there Panetta's this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border with Utah a desert outpost host that was founded in the eighteen sixties by Mormon pioneers see only town in Nevada. That's dry meaning. You can't buy alcohol there and one of just two in the state. We're gambling is prohibited. There's a sign at the town listing. The Ten Commandments is like that'll keep the devil out so Panetta has god country and it's such a Western cliche that I literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle of the street. It's a place where you know your neighbor and you know that really knowing knowing him means understanding. What's your business would isn't ask someone about Glen Jones and they'll say they knew him? Nice guy blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic can tells me they wouldn't wanNA speculate about Wia. Bombing occurred in their town but then offered an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of a workplace grievance between Glenn Jones. It's and Josh cluff Josh at one time was Glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends. Glenn even helped Josh build his house in Panetta but about a year before the bombing Glenn Leftist job at the hospital later he also losses nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe Glenn Blamed Josh at her dad and the he had a grudge with him. Glenn Wadsworth family home is next door to the cliffs. He was out mowing the John when the bombing happened. It was the last person to seek lend Jones alive. The gentlemen got out of that car and I watched him get out of that car walk around back in the House and he walked back in you know he weighed that me and <hes> was mowing the lawn what we're told us that this weird feeling came over and while he was mowing that he should skip the rest of the front yard and move around to the back so we did and they're no question that I wouldn't be here. Mode the east side and then the southside saved my life that night sure in fact nobody but the bomber was hurting the blast. This was a common story. I heard everyone remembers where they were. For that day and how no one got hurt even when shrapnel rain down like hail of a clear blue sky the worst thing that happened was a boy who's riding his bike by the clubhouse got smacked with a piece of something was knocked off his bike. Uh He got a bruise really I mean you probably could look at that kid shoulder and they wouldn't even be a scar that kid's mom works at the local bed and breakfast. She made us pancakes when we were there and she told us she thought the angels of Panetta's acas ancestors were looking for the town that day for some people in Panetta. That's really all the explanation they need. God kept them safe. Ernie official answers anyway. Share Flea tells me that shortly after the bombing bombing it became an F._B._i.. Investigation and all the F._B._I.. Told me when I asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the F._B._i.. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear earlier. Nobody in town could really answer my questions but people were still thinking about it. A couple people asked me to call them if I found out what really happened between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff it's only after I left Panetta that I may be found an I answer an answer that pointed to something much bigger than a petty disagreement between co workers after visiting `Pinaka I started calling around. Glenn Jones had been living in Kingman Arizona in an R._V. Park right before the bombing happened a called all the tattoo shops in town thinking maybe someone would remember doing a weird phone number Tattoo and while my calls did peak the curiosity of a lot of kingman tattoo artists I know knew anything about it. I also look for Jones's relatives online but turned up. Nothing substantial what I did learn is that Jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army and National Guard hard but he never saw combat in fact. He never left his home state of Colorado during his service in Kingman Jones was as well liked by the people there as he wasn't Panetta remembered for his deference more than any other quality the manager of the R._V. Park where he lived told me that just days before the bombing Jones came into his office and paid the rent for a neighbor going through chemo. He told the manager not to say who did it. AN PANETTA ACA not only did no one say negative thing to me about Jones most wouldn't even call him by his name. They referred to him as the suspect or the person. The National News didn't cover it either. This was a bombing on American soil and sure no one was hurt but the bomber but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story after the bombing the Kingman Police Department rated Glenn Jones's trailer so I got copies of their police reports they found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals Jones's name on the cover inside one there were diagrams for a bomb and one detective said quote the entries indicated that Glenn Jones had been approached by subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device the intended target the officer wrote wrote was identified as Fourth of July B._L._M.. Field Office but here's where things get murky because the fourth of July came and went that year and nothing happened in by July Thirteenth Jones a decided instead to target Josh Cliff. Here's share Fli he. I don't know I don't know and I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point time. They're very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would've wanted to bomb a beal field office and it turned out there was hello everyone come one cow Bush Dan for freedom and I promised that I'd make more videos when things progress between me and the federal government to bail am in particular and they have before the twenty sixteen takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Nobody really knew Lavoix Finchem by the time he went to Oregon the most public facing presence he had where the youtube videos he'd been posting for a few months about his fight with the Bureau of land management. Remember remember he's the guy from Malaya who's killed reaching for a gun in his jacket. During a traffic stop at a roadblock set up by police to arrest the leaders of the occupation wait for now you need to know is that by July twenty sixteen when the bomb went off in Nevada cluff home Finnigan was dead in the Patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering Americans in your hand everywhere you look in the Patriot Patriot movement you'll see Finnigan's cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People are at songs about him <music>. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report. Kingman police wrote that there was an entry in Jones's notebook indicating that L- avoid comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the office and that quote Josh is the cousin of Lavoix Finchem. I was able to confirm the Josh. CLUFF is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved so I asked sheriff. Lee was angry angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way. Before the bombing that lead did see an anti-government Sidique love. You didn't WanNa give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis. Assists but the gist was that at the hospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for it themselves cleft wasn't having it yet really angry. Started yelling got a little bit of eye-opening putting about how Josh felt about government overreach so just to be clear Glenn Jones blew up the House of Josh cluff who is related to Lavoix Finchem Vinnicombe death according to the police report was possibly Glenn Jones's motive for the bombing of a beal and building but that bombing never happened Jones targeted cluff instead. It's unclear whether cluff in Jones were working together other to bomb the bill and building it first and something went wrong or Jones was working alone and decided to bomb clubhouse for some other reason what was close role and all this was he ever investigated. I don't know because the F._B._i.. Won't even tell me there is an investigation so what happened between the two of them. We know they were involved. Financially police found a contract for twenty two acres of land that Jones bought from cluff for fifty thousand thousand dollars. There is also account that would pay out to cluff in the event of Jones's death but I can't tell if any of that connects to the bombing cluff is never given any straight answers about Jones or lavoix or bombing. I'm an appeal office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up what few belongings they could salvage and move to Idaho began. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong they only confirmed that they did in fact service search warrant here at the family's new house and also at the families old house the site of the explosion. We're back in Panetta. There's nothing where the house used to be. Just an empty lot filled with mud. I walked the whole perimeter of it while we were there thinking seeing some answer about what really happened might present itself but all I got where muddy shoes and nervous looks from a guy standing quietly on his porch across the street watching Ryan. I poke around like Weirdos so after I got home <hes> I got in touch with cloth on facebook and ask for an interview finally after a few messages he wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past. He said I typed at a response immediately. There wasn't trying to compromise that happiness but it seemed like his side of the story had really come out. What in his mind was the truth? Why the hell then Glenn Jones Josh's phone number tattooed on his body? I hit send by then cluff had blocked me months later. I found an email for him. I reached out again and I tried one more time to get cleft to say something. I sent him the evidence I had N- asked whether the bombing was about his cousin Voy Finnigan he responded quote. Those were terrible times for my family which we were trying to move past have be I did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement have a nice night and please be respectful of what my family has gone on through so here's what we know however the Panetta bombing came to target Josh in Tiffany cluff instead of a be a lamb building it appeared of begun on is a response to the death of a Lavoix finicky him it was in some ways a continuation of occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at Bundy ranch in the years years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs there have been more and more acts of extremist violence popping up in the news and it seems like each time the radical ideas than inform the Patriot movement come up to turn to the news and the man suspected of sending a wave wave of mailbox across the country is in handcuffs tonight like a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals like Barack Obama Hillary Clinton and George Soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cobol. He's also active on social media and often often posted anti liberal messages conspiracy theories to twitter or Georgia man killed a cop in considered himself a sovereign citizen nation unto himself reclaim to be a sovereign citizen meaning. He didn't recognize police authority or the shooter in New Zealand who had been fire onto mosques because of what he saw as a so called white genocide New Zealand as a nation stricken tonight a self-declared white supremacist gunned down Muslims at prayer today not to give the Bundy's too much much credit but no bombs went off at now here. No shots were fired at Bunkerville so in this season of Bundy Ville. We're not actually talking to any BUNDY's instead we're talking about the people who picked up where they left off the remnant unit of their movement and then we're following the violence following the ripple outward from the voice death through Pinakothek. Try and figure out what's coming next and where it will be coming from what the pinnacle bombing probably Italy is is a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent but I couldn't ask Glenn Jones why he blew up the clubs house in the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at Bundy ranch who knew Lavoix Finnigan and who also tried to blow up a government building in the summer of two thousand sixteen and when I called them up. He said he'd be happy to tell me anything. I wanted to know that's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Lisa Tilly Peter Frick right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking walking by Matt Giles Research helped from Kim Freda special thanks to David Study and a shout out to the shamrock pub in Kellyanne Nevada who fed US chips for dinner. Bonneville is a CO production of long reads and Oregon Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation to either long reads or O._P._B.. You can also support Bundy Ville by leaving us a rating review wherever you get your podcasts.

Kingman Jones Panetta Glenn Jones Josh cliven Bundy Josh cluff Josh Tiffany cluff Josh cluff Glenn Jones Ryan Sheriff Jerry Lee Bundy Ville Bonneville Lavoix Finnigan Bundy villa Utah BUNDY producer Bundy ranch Oregon Public Broadcasting
Leah Sottile on Bundyville and American Radicalism

The Lawfare Podcast

1:09:33 hr | 1 year ago

Leah Sottile on Bundyville and American Radicalism

"Cliven grazing his caroline publicly and for a long time but he had paid his bills at twenty a years so basically two thousand fourteen the government says all right we're gonNA come take the cows payment Repossession well cliven takes to the as far as to quotas projectiles with rat poison in the hopes the shrapnel would cause uncontrolled bleeding in its victims an exit the building and obviously pretty dramatic introduction and intersection between the subject of American extremism and your own life Zona Nevada Oregon I mean there are People Montana that come there to protect this rancher in what they see as a show of tyrannical which does a deep dive on America's far right militia movement together they discuss these groups origins and ideologies and what they can teach us about homegrown radicalization at his rally in Minneapolis earlier this week president trump received voluntary security from an unexpected source the oath keepers a far right militia ended a backpack bomb on the parade route near Metro Bench in a brick wall across the street from my favorite bookstore city workers saw that associated with the white supremacy movement nor is this the first time that the trump administration has crossed paths with such groups which become more active in recent years by people that were heavily armed I'm Jacob Schultz and this is the law fair podcast October Twelfth Two Thousand Nineteen we need your help sort of miraculous event where people show up from all over the country I mean I'm talking New Hampshire errors so this is pretty horrible attempted attack took place just outside your front door real I think you mentioned later in the episode that please tip kind of cut off your your entrance read the march was planned to go right through the center of the city a man named Kevin Harper a white supremacist from Stevens County Washington plan packed with fishing weights coated in rat poison and human feces this is going to take out windows it's potentially going to damage cars anybody who's a pedestrian in in modern day America it's the law fair podcast episode four sixty Leah's Sicily on Bundy Ville and American radicalism to learn more about these groups l'affaire senior editor Scott are Anderson recently sat down with journalists Leah's Tilly who's the host of the podcast Bundy Ville backpack in called it in it was filled with wires and it smelled awful Kennedy and of course we now know that Kevin Harper left is bombed here at main in Washington he intended in the immediate vicinity is probably going to be injured and maybe even killed in the days fishing weights would have torn through the marchers like giant shotgun blast harp amid gun Cillian. Let's start our conversation where I think your intersection with this sort of issue instead of issues started and that's within man name forced the government so what ended up happening is that the bureau and management agents there the into the cows found themselves surrounded on all sides Stevens County man has been arrested in connection with a bomb placed in downtown spokane on Martin Luther King Junior Day it was a cold winter morning the day of the Martin Luther King Junior tell us a little bit about what we know about Kevin Harper and the path that led him to this intersection with your life as a journalist in spokane at the time not working police issues sure yeah what's known about Kevin Hart Bone is a lot of what's been reported by predominantly by spokane media the spokesman Review in Kevin Harper. Let me play clip here for you from episode seven of season two Bundy bill breaking news from ally for the FBI confirms a US a black powder explosion to spray all those people in that parade with a rain of these lead fishing weights inside was a six inch long pipe bomb you in particular but what they found was that Kevin Harper them with someone who had been interested in white supremacist ideologies and in in a lot of the things that fuel the white supremacist movement he was also a guy that not a lot of people knew he didn't have a lot of friends he lived in a rural area kind of what we hear a lot about a lot of mass shooters and and things that you know oh he was such a nice guy or he was you know someone and I I knew who he was but I I don't know that I ever talked to him that sort of thing so when everything started to come out it started to look like this was Ah ah bombing that was motivated by the White Supremacist ideology that he believed and and in court that came out to these were he was motivated of a very rural county in northeastern Washington and He was well liked by the people who did know him so so a lot of what was known about Harper was do bomb that parade because of what he believed about people of Color so that yeah that intersected in my own life and that I woke up one day and wasn't able to go out the front door of my apartment building and I worked weirdly I sorta existed on this one city block in order in arts reporter primarily I'd gone to school for Journalism it sort of had a passion for you know punk music and heavy metal and that's what I wrote about it ax we see recently and a big part of that story is one of radicalization of this socialization of individuals into the so you now of several years after the two thousand eleven incident have produced this podcast that does this incredible deep dive into bridge was this was something that had been going on in that area for a really long time and I always knew about it but the sense that you get when you live in that area then spliced paused and dissected by people who never knew him seconds later he dropped the sort of ecology of social institutions and movements in ideology that is motivating a lot of these sorts of incidents not take place and you spend a lot of time really both in both seasons of Bonneville but particularly with this new focus in the second season talking about one of the main figure again they come across like an unfinished sentence are they the start to a threat promise I always think I'll hear some at the time so so I watched as the other reporters in my newsroom worked on this story and and it was a big deal when I learned by sort of our own maybe standard set of some successes a number of disappointments in an adult life and then goes to have this really exceptional ending to his life and then uh-huh Spokane Washington where I lived across the street from the newspaper that I worked at I worked at the the inland or the alternative weekly there and I was a music describe finicky him as a martyr made at the speed of the Internet he goes from this background of pretty standard history somebody with a pretty I in this process of indoctrination and that is someone named La Voie Finnigan let me play another clip for you from episode three for a long time with it went away when the area nations went away I think harping bombing as evidence that it didn't go away and that it's still stills air I've seen Voi- finchem die and die and die I can log onto youtube right now and watch even more exceptional afterlife that plays into this broader system of again ideologies that are moving was behavior let's thank dead kill back it up played again his words sound like a nervous mantra started because he was just so mild mannered and so so so easy to talk to reporters were having these great long interviews stronger than spirit death on repeat took finicky is known for now later in this episode you'd Geology that leads to a war certainly too many of us seem pretty extreme violent horrible behavior but there are also other types of radicalization other types of indoctrination new intonation some missed revelation but finicky I'm always dies the same three POPs doesn't jump or Yelp just crumble season two Bundy Ville were you talk a little bit about Lavoix and the role that he has come to play in the lot of these right wing movements the ground and as the top see shows from the corner he was shot three times want those people to have again and again watched his pickup crash. The driver's door fly open so so what I did with this season of Bonneville was I wanted to get like a definitive life story of WHO Finna come was he's an interesting guy I mean immediately I I was interested in who he was and what his story was when he was at the refuge which is really when the story caught my interest doing these press conferences every day where telling people what the heck is going on and why they're even there in the first place and Finicky is often they're speaking to reporters and the first time you sort of comes onto the scene is during the twenty sixteen occupation of the Malaya National Wildlife Refuge when Ammon Bundy and his the Ryen Bundy led an armed occupation of federal property there in South Eastern Oregon Vinnicombe shows up and pretty quickly the Bundy's the refuge and he he first became involved with the Patriot movement apparently during the Bundy ranch standoff in twenty fourteen start with the man himself gives a little background about Lavoix Finna come and his life before he began himself down on this path that ended in his death in two thousand six he lived all over the West he was married several times he had a bunch of kids twelve total and then he became a foster parent in Philly Com hops out as a yells to the police. You're going to have to shoot me then three Bullets Bang Bang on the Navajo reservation and he always wanted to be a cowboy and he couldn't quite make that dream of being cowboy work also body tencent alive one second have you sack of bone strapped to the ground for eternity the next puppet without a hand gravity mild mannered decent rancher who raised a lot of foster kids so soon he was sort of an outlier I think for this movement in that he it's with him and kind of these philosophical conversations so Finnigan is actually one of the only ranchers that showed up to this you know quote unquote ranchers protested real down into why the heck he got involved in this in the first place so you mentioned two things that I wanted flesh out here for our listeners has really everything I repent started in like twenty fourteen and and that was only the last two years of his life and so I wanted to know damn sure so we're gonNA come Robert Voy Finnigan is his full name. He was a rancher from air northern Arizona in the end for the movement and even in the season one when I sat down with Cliven Bundy and his son Ryan Bundy they talked about how lavoix really was it wasn't in a militia and he hadn't been rallying against the government for a long time like Cliven Bundy ad he was just this sort of perfect person often violent and bloody wave one of those in particular is nineteen ninety-two Ruby Ridge standoff in in northern Idaho where a man and his family were living really remote area of Idaho and he failed to show up to court in so US marshals came out to bring him to court and what ensued wrong ideas about the government and there have been multiple in big instances in the Patriot movement history where they clashed very publicly with the government and it's about ninety miles away from Las Vegas a rural area but not the most rural area that you can go to in the West but it's weird cliven bundy his lived the perfect spokesman for their movement because he was so likable by people on every part of the spectrum so like you say like you you played in that clip you know I was this long standoff that resulted in many people dying both members of the Weaver family and in particular one was a child when he arrived on the scene of the Patriot movement as I like to say in two thousand sixteen he was known around North Northern Arizona as this thousand fourteen incident and Bunkerville that got involved in this Patriot movement gives us more back a little bit of short background on that and then Lee eld and also us marshals so that's a moment in time I think that really exemplifies a lot of what the Patriot movement believes that that it's it's people who oftentimes are in militias there maybe against paying their taxes they have pretty strong leading up to levels involvement what was he stepping into when he showed up in two thousand fourteen okay so I the Patriot movement has been around a really long time another big kind of re Ridge esque events play out in Bunkerville Nevada that's down in the you know very southern part of me that you oftentimes have to take out a grazing permit with federal agency in his case Bureau of Land Management and basically you know there are public lands of twenty years he has not paid his bills to the federal government so when you ranch in the West or around the United States unceasing mammoth so sort of miraculous event where people show up from all over the country I mean I'm talking New Hampshire sonal Nevada Oregon I mean there are People Montana that come there to protect this rancher in what they see as a show of tyrannical much of his life and he is a cattle rancher there and he's one of the last if not be less cattle rancher in Clark County Nevada and for the things happen during that event in which one of cliven sons with he's by bureau land-management officer and there were dogs that were I'm not familiar with them one of those is the Patriot movement itself and then you mentioned the Bundy's a number of time cliven Bundy on a number of other Bundy's and the role they played in the Tudor media starts going to militias and saying they're coming to get me they're coming to take my cows they're coming to kill my family and we need your help in in over the country that Americans can use to recreate or you know do all kinds of things on but one of those uses is ranching and in order to do that you have to the government is so oppressive and tyrannical that will come after people who wanna live their own way so in in twenty fourteen we saw who he was in the previous fifty some odd years so what turns out to be is that he was a rural guy grew up in a in a Mormon family arrange to you know charge people money to use public lands that the public land doesn't even exist and the federal government has no business telling people cows as payment you know like a repossession and so they planned this big round up well cliven takes to the right wing media you know Internet at federal officials and got away with it and You know I think had that not happened then in twenty sixteen cliven Bundy I people were that were heavily armed and they sit down and that was seen as a real victory for the Patriot movement on there was some other the two sons eminent Ryan would not have traveled to Oregon to take over a federal wildlife refuge there now the twenty twenty sixteen event is have a grazing permit where the government says yeah this is public land but you are allowed to graze your cows here so cliven has grazing his cow them publicly Nevada what to do so like I said it was seen as a real victory for the Patriot movement and was seen as a time when the American citizens pointed guns and for you know for a long time but he had paid his bills in twenty years so basically in two thousand fourteen the government says all right we're GONNA come runoff crops and things like that to be able to replant this fire in particular got out of control and it was also suspected they were actually poaching so the Bundy's took over the refuge sort of in this show force that they thought that that was another example of Taran ICAL government controlling people government would be aggressor coming at them and so they were just defending themselves but that whole event was grounded in this idea that the federal government just doesn't have inching duo went to jail for less than five years were released and then on appeal they were hauled back to jail dear own eagerly so this these ranchers were called to jail they were given a mandatory minimum sentence of five years but the as of two ranchers in Oregon in that area that had land bordering the refuge that were they were convicted of setting four of the government so what ended up happening is that the bureau land management agents there that into get the cows found themselves surrounded on all sides idiological perspective that the Bundy's and presumably many of those who join them in two thousand fourteen share this criticism of the federal government's ownership ah handed back to the people of Harney County which is the county that was in but it also coincided with this pretty dramatic case the fire on federal land basically you know people used fire in the West to control it it helps prevent wildfires they burn and sort of you know nipping at the crowd a woman was knocked to the ground and the and the Bundy's continued today to show that that is the the judge in the case said that just seems egregious and I think he said it would shock the conscience that that's what they should serve these men the father and son I know that that refuge was even there it's a bird refuge and you know you see a lot of older people you know in kind of like outdoor it's a really it's not a book it's like a packet of papers but it it shows How cliven Bundy his neighbor another another LDS command named Keith who has since passed they basically got together all the time to talk about Mormon scripture and what they did is they assembled all of land their ability to even own land legally under the constitution or under with other system of natural natural law you think applies what other aspects of idiot algae the Bundy's bringing to the table though because there's not just a secular kind of constitutional critique there's also a religious aspect of this there is yeah so one razzie clothing and binoculars that go there to look at birds and enjoy the outdoors they came there and sees that property and said we're not leaving until is about the federal government not being able to own land and you know they treat the constitution as if it's a holy taxed the bunnies are also very religious thing because I mean I've talked to LDS scholars all over the country and they said this is this is bizarre this is not what the perch agrees times and that at some point they would be forced to do basically the constitution would be hanging by a thread and their words and they would they would awesome these ideas and it turns out there was so it's easier on a bunny though we talk a bit about this document that was given to me call the name Book Elliot's Church thinks of that as kind of this urban legend but with the Bundys you saw people not only not thinking urban legend but doubling down on it and actually India you know Internet media starts going to militias insane? They're coming to get me they're coming to take my cows they're coming to kill my family different in what they did there is that they went into the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which is you know I lived in Oregon almost my entire life at that point and I did the pieces of scripture that they thought affirm their belief that the LDS people would be the final protectors of the constitution and the of Bundy what was really interesting exercise I mean they both were but not one I wanted to know why Cliven Bundy got these ideas and I actually got a statement from the Mormon Church thing this is not what we condone and it's based on a prophecy and I say that with quotes around it bull there Mormons or LDS and I wanted to know if there was just some part of their ideology their religious ideology that led to it so to do these things we since releasing Bonneville season one what I've found out from a lot of people that that that prophecy the so called prophecy which is called the White House Eh that the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith Maybe said that the Mormon people would be the final protectors of the constitution but most of be the ones that would be forced to protect it and they would be saved because of that so certain sort of blew my mind a little bit that this sort of salvation narrative was tied up with the United States document so I actually went to Bunny ranch and I talk to them about the book and and without was and it was it was interesting so that's kind of the buddy story in a nutshell with that season one of the show with her so you mentioned this I prophesy is more believed in around the American West and a lot of people would like to let on so so the Bundy's in that regard you know they they made this book and distributed this Packet Disney book Pakistan and kind of went lean hard obviously into that beliefs while so so Lavoix keenum shows up in two thousand fourteen in this situation up until this point is you know in the podcast you know he management was up on his payments unlike the Bundy's what happens after two thousand fourteen how does it change at trajectory of Adam's life yeah I mean afterwards you know I was able to get a bunch of letters through foia requests that he had written to the the Om Office there in his area he was in good standing with him he paid all bills on time you know he'd have long conversations with these guys that were land managers out there but she had had faced a lot of setbacks seemed to be kind of as close as the gotten to this dream of being a rancher and Family Mana wife several kids foster children what are you talking about what what why and he just felt that he had to stand up against the government in this sort of image the cliven Bundy had like he was actually trying to plan some sort of violent confrontation with the government as well and that's the part that I think that his family doesn't like to hear people talk about I had this youtube channel where he would talk a lot about it a lot but behind the scenes through other court documents that I found it's widow and so he was sort of planning this violent interaction with the planning that they would that they were gonna come in and take his cattle had been heard through his life but what he saw there I think he was so invigorated by it and saw that maybe there was a real show of force that rural people could have and season two that he wanted to be like the guy in front of the tank Tiananmen Square and that you know if he died the cause would be the poor ranchers he left bunny ranch and really drastically changed his behavior and and his interactions with the federal government so before he went he said you know I just have to take a stand and I'm not gonna I'm not GonNa pay my bills anymore basically and there was this real kind of back and forth that was interesting had was the least actively ranching shirts not always easy you know had had occurred normal life on top which had a normal relationship with groups like the Bureau of land and The you know the they have not been happy with Bundy Ville about because the supposedly he was saying to Bill Keebler militiamen that we talk about when Finnigan showed up in two thousand fourteen in heard these ideas about the government being you know this big bad guy it was not the first time he heard that that was something that that Lundy so so I think he was living under this sort of luge in that that that if he died or if he did something with lead you know but by the time he died he really hit only wrapped up a little over a thousand dollars in grazing fees and it took the government twenty years to come get clients I think that Finicky I'm showed up there and found a lot of like minded people who maybe there's been hearing a lot of the same things about the government that he had through his life I mean showed that he did and finicky was really public about that all of a sudden he was gonNA stop paying his bills and stand with other ranchers some progress but it's it's pretty unclear what that world would look like I guess if he was successful so Vinnicombe faces this dramatic and saying that we heard described in the clip we played just a few minutes ago and it's one that's particularly dramatic because it's this kind of impromptu confrontation where they departed the reserve briefly They had this confrontation other people in the vehicle ended up surrendering vinnicombe is vocally a little more resisting and it's been hot on media from all directions there is not only video from the outside there's also you know people inside the car with him recording you can hear some of them in the clip we in reply from one thousand perspectives over and over again on social media on the Internet and at least two Finnigan becoming this something more than just a man to having this pretty exceptional afterlife facilitated in part by his surviving wife and others describe for us a little bit what his legacy has been what we played a sang has did they shoot them did they shoot him and all of this media does create this effect that you described so well of being able to see this death radio of his shooting of his shooting death because you know immediately after it happened I think that the FBI and the government had to get in front of what they figured would be you know conspiracies about it and so they released this footage aerial footage that was taken by a drone that was at least not came out really quickly well then almost just as quickly came out the cell phone video from inside the car where you hear you know the people in the car over the traffic stop and followed incomes truck as he drove away from police and it didn't have any audio and things like that and and they the sound of the window shattering and tear gas being blown and that kind of thing so rounds out the story a little bit more and role has come to play in this bronx towards a broader movements Sherri yeah any something really exceptional like you say about about this becomes the smarter for this movement in a way that you know the Waco standoff in the mid nineties that that people saw the video that was meant to sort of like conspiracy theories just led to wild conspiracy theories in the end so in in the end finish calm but all of a sudden he's fleeing away from a traffic stop he's jumping out of a car saying you're GonNa have to shoot me and he gets it like way totally different things they take away that here's this man who's scared he's saying I'm GonNa go talk to the sheriff in the next county over who happened you speak with law enforcement he agreed with that he wouldn't have carried a gun inside of his jacket pocket that he that he was simply slipping and so now you know Vinnicombe that name here here's this man who ranch in the middle of nowhere who it was known by almost no one has I see it a million different ways so you know one way that people see it is that here's this man who was involved in a prolonged become so well known throughout the world because of his videos and now his cattle brand I mean you can see it everywhere people have attached I wanNA say necessarily manufacturing packaging elements of his legacy and kind of using that communicating that to certain audiences you sat down to be a constitutional sheriff who believes many if not all of the same things that informed the refuge stand up and that he was simply fleeing to right and killed while reaching inside his jacket so people see it one way as justify police shooting on the other hand you have people who see that very same video you know be really scared about what's happening and sort of talking about what they can do they can call in and you know and then after Finnegan shot and I think that being able to splice those two videos together and show it from inside the car and outside the car it ended up being that people's chewed on their bodies their bumper stickers and t shirts and hats and you know songs that have been written about him in in the in the name of Oy is is something that is seen as like almost like a holy like Jesus like figure and that has become very pack powerful well I think in recruiting new people to move men now part of that was organic you can see that with the social media environment that we free event that was in Oregon capital Salem where people were gathering to to sort of honor and remember La Voie and talk about his we have you're getting these very dramatic clubs dramatic developments but part of it wasn't organic part of it was a conscious effort by people to who are kind of what that the the US that people have made of his legacy and and what rules continue to play as a tool or as a product that certain people are died who get you know anniversary commemorations of their debt and such a big way so really I wanted to go and just hear what was being talked about there in this sort of perfect character for people to say look at this rural man who was just trying to stand up for his rights and and that's what he's been common arm standoff with other people who believe that the government is oppressive people who are very well armed and rippled through the crowd that was there it was all stuff that everyone already knew but it was like they wanted to keep remembering it and talking about it search and he said yeah it is church like there are songs and things you know when you when people repeat the same thing over and over that they know already and stumbling and the deep snow they don't seem to have much of an explanation for why he was saying you're going to have to shooting but the but the this is just to say that the very specific end cap of his life that we've discussed today and didn't give a whole lot more information would've watches is that information uh-huh disseminating sure yeah so in in we've it's episode three of season to go to this three year anniversary into the movement so but also you know it was interesting to see the types of people that were there you know they were predominantly white predominantly older folks but the and watch US shooting video that they've seen thousands of times if feels like a group of people who just want to remember that moment smarter and you you hear people talk all the time within this movement about the fear of Muslims and and down for Bundy Chelsea's in to and listen to one of these shows led by believe Mister Phantoms wife can you give us a little sense of suicide bombers and and martyring themselves and it starts to feel release similar in regards to Lavoix so so yeah that's so this this image of Vinnicombe is sort of wrapped up in a religious liberty and an Americanism that felt very specific to me that they all became I guess radicalized in a way maybe they were on the fence and then they saw this shooting video and pushed them over hissy and you know what brought me there was sort of this this these two very disparate images of his death but also you know I don't know a lot of people who have very very specifically Christian and very specifically white and that's really who genetic com- has shown this video to I asked for a copy of the video martyr and what are people willing to do for a martyr I mean right like we see people doing a lot of things for a murder you know Jesus way to understand the the rest of those fifty years of his life than going and watching this video would I found that is that her videos really only played to this in the past few years some people have started to call this region the American readout a readout is kind of military fortification and encouraging libertarians improper from around the country to make a home here they're even readout realtors will sell you a house complete with a bomb and as I was sitting there I looked at my producer Ryan half who come my reporting partner in this whole thing just because it's such a gigantic story and I was like this is like this Idaho it actually couldn't be less in line with that image deeply conservative area the West tot and dry in the summer coldest hell in the winter cler areas that's a road show is different parts of the West but you really pick one part of the country kind of focus on as perhaps emblematic of whatever Oh and was not able to get any I couldn't purchase one or anything like that that may have changed at this point but she chooses pretty specifically who shelter so this episode is about Stevens County but it's also about this region as a whole and you can't talk about the violent history of Stevens County without so you kind of introduced Stevens County to the Bundy variance you might think of the northwestern U. S. is all rain showers and mountain what the government did there and and the people there who died were seen as martyrs or what happened at Ruby Ridge those people were seen as martyrs so it's just so finicky author preacher and had a church called the Church of Jesus Christ Christian which practiced Christian identity which is an ideology that believes that Jews are the passages given to not kind of just letting me on this you know trip of your season two of trying to figure out like who else is sees a little boy as Kevin Racism and and sort of racist cloak I think that always hanging over the North West so uh early nineties Richard Butler and his friends would host these big Nazi parades in Quarterlane Idaho in this kind of cute little resort Stevens County at all and it was Situated there in the late seventies by a man named Richard Butler Butler was a white supremacist and he happening in a broader region in different pockets around particularly the American West early the party United States as well and that Stevens County Washington let's listen to a brief clip here we what what light he was being painted in so so genetic him his wife has made these movies about his life and I figured you know what better I understanding the Aryan nations so you mentioned area nations once before the important role they play a particularly in created this kind of home base for white supremacists around the country at the Aryan nations compound and North Idaho and he also fashioned hymns these records coffee shops and we'd stores on every corner right but this part of the North West I'm about to tell you about eastern Washington East sides of the state are very rural very conservative and Stevens County and all this stuff is very it's so much closer to Idaho the big huge counties that are really close to Idaho where they've been known for a long time as places that people don't want to be those that there are people there who just don't want to be bothered and Stephen County is absolutely one of those places so we get into Stephen Counties Pacific in eastern Washington so so it's sometimes I think hard for people to understand that there's in Oregon and Washington in particular you have these very John of even Satan and you know Christian identity takes on a lot of different forms but it's something that really appealed to a lot of so we've got a few different kind of movements interacting at this point we have the Patriot movement associated with the Bundys we have the area that if Lavar the martyr that we uncovered was a you mentioned that you know these videos are being brought to particular communities and in there and we talk about how genetic com- brings her video about about her husband to this secretive closed religion actions which was in a particularly promising eighties nineties then we have you know interactions with both religious identities and ones that are more anti gun Weizman sisters history of an appealing to white supremacists so area nations was there for a long time you know up until the eighties and into the Oh to where the nation's was than than any of that progressiveness of the West Side so even county ponder Ray County Ferry County these are all the around cities who want to get out of society can go and really be left alone I think that's one thing that anybody who spent time in the rural west this compound in Stevens County that has led by people who were foundational framers of some Christian identities most important ideas people who are really suspicious about the government so you know like I said earlier you you'll find like militias and sovereign citizens and tax protesters and blue democratic progressive cities that are on the western side of the state in the middle of the state you have these gigantic mountains and the in the upper northwest and this evolution of Stevens County and related Patriot movement related movements there give us some background that what on and people would come out in droves to protest it and and it was sort of this you know very very public clash of these ideas and free speech white supremacist but in need movement they often well come white supremacists in their ranks which I think is is suspicious point for a variety of circumstance getting to until the podcast the nation's shuts down and he loses the property and it's bulldoze but when that happened moment how do they interact with their relationship and how do they have this kind of mix of these strains in Stevens county are they're made rural county there's a history of these Christian identity churches being there these churches that believe you know an anti Semitic ideology and there have been really violent white supremacy that have come from those places particularly Kevin Harper who he talked about it at the top of the show so so that's kind of Hawaii we get into the area and those who aren't perhaps white and Christian who lived there yeah I think people of Color and Stephen County you know have sometimes you know you mentioned that during the twenty sixteen maller event that people started referring to the occupiers of the reserves so like for example during the two thousand sixteen occupation the wildlife refuge the Bundy's were called you know racist and things like that and they and they were I think a lot of people in the United States particularly those at eastern urban areas don't encounter these groups already allergies very often are dismissive nations and use that as a way to talk about you know this history in this area that that has led to you know these sort of racist ideas persistent as y'all Qaeda or Vanilla Isis terms obviously kind of being a little bit derogatory and nuncius towards them but it can be more serious than that can you are excited about those ideas and I think they just kind of fanned out or they just went home to where the where they always were and one of those nearby county same thing that there's people with racist ideas there are people who are just you know don't want the government to own land or don't WanNA pay their taxes is there in nation and how did it impact the trajectory of Stevens County yeah so the nation was located in northern Idaho so actually not in you know I I think a lot of people thought well the Nazis are gone they're going to move somewhere else but that really wasn't the case there are a lot of people in the area that were glee be has not because it's where the Indian nations was but it's because there were you know huge sparsely populated like we're you know we're not racist but within their ranks of the people leading occupations were white supremacist so so I think in Stevens County it's sort of the there and maybe we should question that instead of make fun of it or on say well you know if you talk about the area nations or you talk about Christian identity the vote he would not even considered serious candidates so so I think that's just to show that there are people who are willing to come to the sides of the people in this movement describe for us a little bit what the presence of these sorts of groups both theory nations and case kind of successor groups has meant for people in Stevens County is part of the country particularly you you're just giving those people more attention to perhaps helping them do their recruiting I think that that's that's the case but you know I think it's important also to add that data you know the Bundy's are huge name and Ryan Bundy ran for a winner last year only got you know he got a smaller intermingling and uniting I guess in these instances like we've seen with the bundies and the the standoffs that they lead you see a lot of people with different ideas in and fight for them but they're not they're not a gigantic group well you know in spite of the fact that that these aren't necessarily Donald people who are sort of you know prep or survivalists and that's not to say everyone that considers themselves up you know quote unquote member of the Patriot movement is the in the West and in Stevens County these are not prominent ideologies we could see that as evidence maybe a little relief in that what we talked about in Bunny Ville season to just that were like hey this stuff has been there and it still it's kind of agreeing on the principle you know nugget that that rose those so I think that's the case in Stephen County I think it's a case in a lot of counties in the West branches differences or is there kind of cross fertilization that tends to have I think you don't have one of those relic arms captures a lot of I am but a lot of people contacted after bunny bill and see them one saying Yeah I learned that and I also learned that we weren't supposed to talk about it so that was that was interesting theologies they are ones that have pretty prominent spokespeople and that includes some people in the United States government one you spend affirmative time on I think we have to talk about is representative Brad Former Representative Matt Shea from Washington State legislature let me play the clip where you kind of they are the population centers and they dominate politics and they dominate you know the way laws go and there is a very real thing both believed the feds are setting up concentration camps to imprison Americans representative good to have you on with us thank you for having me conspiracy theories thing in doing things that might ruin other politicians like back in two thousand nine he talked with conspiracy King Alex Jones on infowars about how the which is almost impossible to do and he even said that it's not a new idea I'm not the first person to have this idea but I think he's probably the person who's the most series contest us that leaked a few years ago called the biblical basis for war can you describe for these kind of two separate ideas how they relate to each other and how they so as a minimum they're all at the same rally he talked about the government collapsing like it was an opportunity chance to get stuff done we now representative Shea is associated with a couple of pretty out their ideas but that has to make our own state like let's take our ball and go home and so he he talks about this idea it's not a new idea in fact I talked to that Shea to prepare for the inevitable collapse it's going to happen and yes I said that as a politician here onstage it's GonNa Happen we in Washington with this idea of the State of Liberty it it's this idea to create a fifty first state where eastern Washington would be severed off Krizan Americans he says you need to prepare for the apocalypse so last year this document is leaked to the media by a former security staffer have the obviously the constituency that he keeps coming back Stevens County for that appeals to him or that he appeals to one of them is this idea of the vet the question is and I think the question should be for all of us what are we gonNa do afterwards what are we going to do with that opportunity what are we going to do to prepare ourselves for that time the new State of liberty during the American redoubt into potentially a separate state kind of focused on autonomy and another one arguably relates to a documentary into its own place in part of that gets to this idea talking to earlier about you know that that Seattle in Washington and Portland Oregon it's about it and You know he he wants to shave also a politician who spent very little time in Spokane Valley he went in in in in Washington where people in rural areas feel like their vote just doesn't matter and so what she is doing kind of capitalizing on that idea and saying well then always been a part of Shay's public persona when Alex Jones teed up the FEMA camps story matches took a swing well I I I am aware of what you're talking to does that he's supposedly wrote down from a sermon and it advocates for a certain way of life than continues you know if things that aren't repealed until people and the crazy part is like that kind of thing leaks to the media based on the Bible that is based in Christianity those based on the Old Testament to be honest and if people don't comply with the Oh can where I used to live nearby borders Idaho and You spend all this time like say kind of campaigning around occurred so I think like you see these ideas intermingling in that people start seeing this state of liberty idea as less of a like appeal fit into what appears to be Matt Save kind of Political Ideology Yeah so matt she is from Spokane Valley which is a city actually separate and to the twenty fourteen bundy ranch standoff in Nevada he went to the twenty sixteen occupational wildlife refuge he talks about these FEMA camps being built too I suppose the new society based on these principles you know quote kill all males it's you know same sex marriage candles that none of which have quite led however to his defeat electorally so far in two thousand fourteen you guys describe he was overheard by your waitress discussing Dale religious institutions were non-christian groups and other organizations that my you know don't seem to fit with his ideology and the other sort of extreme broadcast with this group called team rugged which is actually training kind of young adolescent men in the use of firearms and the use of other sore to rural voters have boys and more like match trying to set up a biblically governed state that where you know marijuana's illegal and text messages were leak that Shea was involved with where he and other right wing figures prominent re doubters the FEMA camps which vary in most particularly disturbing about that is that they're going to be on former military bases a ton of people have expressed their concerns that what they're really building plans with the oath keepers and militia group actually called them in because she thought they were terrorist group planning a terrorist attack he is very has been linked to plans to Sir we're talking about committing violence against liberal protesters and in that match offer to background those people this was this sort of plan for for this new society he hopes to lead an so represented shays kind of gotten caught up in a few actors political future. No I don't think there is what is going on with Matt Shea is that he is under investigation for one of the same sex marriages illegal and women have fewer rights and all kinds of things so so that you know when biblical basis for war came out that's how it was interpreted and most politicians I think would say like I have nothing to do with that I don't know what that is but shave like doubled down and was like yeah I did write that down but it was it was the sermon there's been a lot of stories come out about Shea and I think in one regard it's made people in Washington state more aware that he's there but in his involved with this this group and even county called Marble Community Fellowship disclosed religious community that we talk about in the podcast and in camps I think you're just here he is on stage militia rally in twenty thirteen if you do not have five thousand rounds of two to three five thousand rounds of twenty two in one thousand rounds of Han go man it's of military tactics implicitly in preparation of wraps experts in preparation for some sort of action or some sort of moving in the future can you discover these boys are training in the art of Biblical War is what they say and they're being led by the pastor of that fellowship and it's at that that religious community that this group team rugged which you know a lot of teenage maybe like lower twenty so he's under investigation right now to see to look more into the story I guess those text messages so but yeah he's also so there are people who who believe in what he believes and I I don't know that they've been deterred by any of these scandals of course metro no he has a fundraiser with like way more people than maybe would have been there before any of this happened so it's really hard to say what is going to happen with shame the district I think it's caused him to maybe even more support because they see these things and see and they don't like the media and actions must reasonably he's Kinda come under some more heat in relation to this biblical basis for war on because of other interactions you had which also I think play recording of in the whether he will ousted I don't think that anybody should put much stock in that he's been voted in for six consecutive terms the Senate confirmation of Grove land-management someone who's publicly argued the federal government should be able to legally hold land and they is proceeding with a plan to reassign some isn't the only politician whose rhetoric and ideas and he algae lease Intersex or has a relationship with some of these other ideas you know that there are at least Emmons the two people who suspect starting the fire that led to the mailer occupation ultimately William Penn lay his acting director I mean not soon the old strange perverse things to say he continues to maintain a lot of support from Christians and I think that that that definitely thing like between eighty and ninety percent of the Bureau of land management staff from Washington DC to the American West what is the relationship between perhaps more mainstream relationship between the two beyond just you know common touch points of criticism of the federal government. Yeah I think you know one thing that I I noticed vigilence against the Liberals and preparing for this sort of end I guess is it so so that you know as Bunny Ville came in Jason Wilson from the Guardian has been reporting it's Chad socal the spokesman review has been reporting Daniel Walters at the inland are you scandals that that you actually you didn't mention but it is one of the game the dozens of scandals I guess they're not shaved careers becoming defined by so a bunch of right wing domestic terrorism really poses for law enforcement particularly for federal law enforcement on the one side These radiology is premised the the spectrum of you know there's not there are ties between the trump administration and the Bundy's and some other movements in small ways the president trump of course part in the Gotcha in a in a video saying wow you guys are awesome and stuff so sort of like this whole world around shave this biblical basis for war and this what is the current state of match what is what is he dealing with in Washington state is there finally sort of critical mass raising these concerns that may impact his it's called the biblical basis for war and he it's you're just laughing because wacky I mean it's this outline of ideas doc felt very very much in line with this kind of Old Testament old world ideas that you hear in sort of the on the idea of an impressive federal government an aggressive law enforcement tactics you know swat raids undercover missions and things that may look like an J. and B. horrified at the idea of people being killed but the end of the day they're going to they're going to support a Christian and that that's Ll's touch points with some of president trump's rhetoric and some of the ideas appeal to are brought up in this broader narrative that shake kind of represents at least one out of of what they see you know I also thought it was interesting a few weeks ago when president trump was saying in speech and you know it feels like every day these movements and these acts as a matter of public policy it's an interesting question I mean I think we talk that at the end of of this this latest season the only plays into the Bundy story into the Bunny Ville story that there there are a lot of people who may look at these things about Max pursuing to trap them in a lot of those ideologies are inherently victimhood ideologies a belief that certain parts of the population in many last few years of these trends that might inform how federal law enforcement or really any law enforcement our the United States government should approach the how you know domestic terrorism is something a lot of people aren't even sure exists they hear that term and they're not quite sure what it means in federal interest in getting what is often described as left of boom at taking preventive law enforcement action that can prevent acts of terrorism like the one that you experienced in light of this string of horrible shootings and other domestic terrorist attack that were continuing to wrestle with is the challenge that areas that are predominantly under their control at least sympathetic to them what kind of lessons have you pulled away from being a very close observer of these and yet they're not seeming to take you know law enforcement doesn't seem to tecoma seriously you know in Portland where I live Kevin Buying into these ideologies maybe not taking the steps that one would hope they would take to counteract vertically wear these groups have these geographic a million days I can't remember what the story was but he said I am the chosen one you know in a speech and it was talking like he's like the king homegrown it's it's American it's White Christian and and and I think that that's something that you know some law enforcement is as far as terrorism in America you know a lot of cases it's these these groups or its subsidiaries of these groups you know my report UNCHRISTIAN parts of the population are being unfairly prosecute by the federal government feeding into that seems dangerous at the same time these potentially violent and there is a real interest terrorism statutes the existing things that we have in place should be used You know hate crimes can be prosecuted things of that nature entrapment feed into that narrative way they echo a lot of the strategies that the people who embrace these patriots allergies I'm say the federal government and that kind of sit

Cliven Bundy Kevin Harper Oregon Bundy Ville Stevens County Washington Stevens County spokane Leah Bundy ranch Sicily America Matt Shea Minneapolis Martin Luther King Junior Washington Montana Metro Bench Jacob Schultz president
Episode 12: Mao the Basement Guy

Bunker Brothers

39:03 min | 5 months ago

Episode 12: Mao the Basement Guy

"Yes. and. And welcome to Bulger brothers I'm Brian Goblins. Here with while he's, he's not here yet, but I think. I can coming in and now Jack Jack. Jack. Brian I get over your body. Good you, can you? Can you help me with some of this? What are you? Why are you all loaded up like? Venezuelan Pack Mule. Has Been emailing me. Care why are you still talking Carol? Kick me out why? We. If you're just joining us. We're doing. What we're doing the podcast NASA trying to sound like Saturday or something. Do the PODCAST. Now I'm sorry I'm. Looking just turn it off. No, no, this is part of it. We all knew you were on the rocks with Carol, so and after. All do I mean the people write about? The show shows getting pre. The BIG NAP Pretty Norton, famous and people right hand knowing my business Brian Well, you should have thought of that before you let me record it and especially stand outside your house and recorded there as well. Can you tell me what some of these boxes I've had some write ins I can't really help right now in the pot stuff, but I've had some write ins. Say that the. They didn't like some of the audio. I've been giving it out on our Patrie on for the small fee. Today can listen to the sounds of you guys having sex, and some of them said there were some problems, so I'm glad I assume. This has something to do with you. Flirting can't with babies this right now. She slept. She says she slept with the professor. What's? Yeah. That's what she said she. Professor Dude who we had on your the guy who had to rugby? Yes and she said she slept. She said is led with a babysitter I did not sleep with. The babysitter. No, she said I see with the baby. His attention. It was like a big stick of butter falling onto it now. Those sexual, there's no sexual attention. Metaphor much, and then you insisted that you out over home. No wonder but we don't want her. It's A. Neighbor slept with the babysitter, but she. Likes. Fuck Herald cheated for Real Oh. My God pan that's it's not I just hoping. A night in the doghouse. You're like bucked. You're like this. Fuck, Dude, are you aware? Just help me get my shit. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm just hitting me now. When are you moving in here? I'M GONNA stay here for a while. Okay? I know where else to go for tonight tomorrow okay. Both of the bunker brothers living in the bunker together all man all the show getting. I feel excited. Holy Way at talk sided. Great. This is great, we. We never get to do sleepovers anymore. This is. Paul Ryan my life. On the rocks right now it's not a sleepover I feel kind of hyped, and now it's like we don't have these ladies wing down. It can just the boys you know doing stuff with the. Playing cakes wiping safe. Fun For me Brian. Kids going to be okay. That's what I don't. Just come on, let's get. Let's go the rest of my stuff. Oh Boy, I'm trying to keep a positive spin on. This was pretty hairy. All right, let's just let's just get your stuff. I'll supervise. Bring in the stuff in nine. To help just really actually being. Bunker brothers living together I. Love, it. Hey everybody So Do the PODCAST. Major Stop I don't WanNa Swear I. Don't WanNa be negative. Jack Spin living down here for what seems like four weeks now it has been it's been A. Brian a day, it's been excruciating. It's hard because the lights are always on and here so it's hard. Sometimes, it's like Alaska it's my own private Alaska, but I can't release. You slept with the lights on. It might have been. It might have been four days. I don't know what you might talk to. All he does is not sleep and talk about the lights being on all night and I can't studio. You've never turned them off. I've never turned them off. I'll tell you what you're grading. Voice is the ultimate. Turn off. If I was Carol I, don't fuck. She did I'm sorry. Fuck you to. Go. Into, our old routine. I've forgot. I'm sorry, man. It's just letting. Would you say that it's a little? It's a little uncomfortable with you being in here I know it's a big bunker. There's plenty of room, but both of us staying here in the main room. It's just like. It's a lot man. You know it's likely to you. Know you just you just far in your sleep all night. Do you know that I mean I build it up during the day and then I let out at night it's. You know. But you, somehow you do it, and then you laugh at every time you are in your sleep well. That's because when I used to live with Lena and we would sleep together. She call me her little lawn mower because I would just PUTT PUTT PUTT fucking disgusting. You're a fucking disgusting piece of trying to fucking cute story. About, your fucking story, Brian are. Let's calm down the people. The show for our charming or poor all our. Okay, so let's just try to get you to shut the fuck up a bit and be respect me to. Show ten listeners. Big, deal. It's over tad over, but me. Fuck you. Fuck me, fuck me, fuck, fuck me. Don't even know what you're doing. You know what I think I. Think might be easier. It might save the show from being just trying to chainsaw each other's fucking heads off. If maybe we didn't both sleep in the same room together. That's that's the smartest thing you said. ever in your your. Let's just try to keep it positive. I'm here because I might be getting into a whatever. What are you GonNa, say it right, Duty Your own negligence in your marriage, i. Don't take it out on professor. And the babysitter and you try to. You know it's not the that's not. Well I mean that's now. A Carol set from what I heard you know from you. Basically you're my source on this, so it's hard. You're kinda contradict with fake news I guess so fake news, but. I Got All these rooms in here and you know. I'm sure we could figure out how to get a couple of MOPE. And maybe we could get you set up in one of these other ones. You can set up. Cod here and got my tissue box right next to it and everything is just like the way I like it, so if you shouldn't just, let's fuck off, find a place where the lights come on and off like. How I mean you don't have to stay here. I'll pay for you to get a hotel. Would you like we'll go after? Fry My bleeding fingernails from the walls of his. Let's go to this massacre. STYLE IS I. Can fingernails off to get you out of here to separate us. Let's. Just be cool. We are brothers. We love each very much. It's just just hanging out. Steer guess not. Just this whole thing I know, it's not me. I know one hundred percent you. Know. Let's let's let's go try to find a different room. Okay to shut and just let's just shut the fuck up I agree. Mary. Also fucked up in years. Shut the fuck up. Everyone starting now. Okay, so let's just take a jaunts. Down this way. And I was. Live in the Shit rumor and you'd fifth. Round Foolish Shit. Shit. Shit if you can move some of the shrapnel, Outta the way it smells like. Smells like burnt eggs I. DON'T WANNA. Sleep in on the big the big bed in the sex video room I don't I. There's no way it's. It's just it. I have nightmares. It's I've I've tried sleeping on once it's the sheets are really nice. They seem old like they haven't been washed a long time. There are some gusty questionable hardships stains. Okay! This one over here going to give it a little tug. Not Work. Across from it over here is a code door. Code. Yeah I mean what. Boehner! Twenty or some shit six, six, six, nine, six nine. Okay six. Six nine. Okay at doesn't fucking work. You tried four twenty. What was that thing? Yeah, whilst okay, four, twenty, four twenty. Who is it always sounds like how orgy that can spell that out. Now. What was it? Do in math in the fucking graphing calculator, not the graphing one, but the regular one you could like. It was like something where you turn. Macau calculator upside down. You could spell boosts right right right? Yeah! I'm GONNA fucking okay. Eighteen. Zero, zero eight five. That's not. No No, no, no, no, no, no, you held the calculator upside down. So what is what is that upside down? Five. Eight. Zero eight fucking! What. I. Hope I can't believe what a fucking Weirdo. Our DAD is so predictable. I've turned. He's the one who showed me that had. All these. Open this bad boy. APP just Oh! Hello Sir, hello guys how. Only. In her bunker. Not much what's up? Do you live? Here is what's out. What's what is this? What is this room looks like it's like a man cave in here. That's exactly what. K-, what are you a rumpus room? You gotta get easy chase keg writer. He's GonNa Catering Asteroid? Only cow. Jukebox, this place and he's Scott. Was that a mini chandelier? That is so fucking classy. This is the nicest wrong the biker. Guy. Here? Have you been stuck in here? No I live upstairs. This is my basement as in case I, hang out. What do you guys? Jackie there's stairs that go up to some sort of hatch their lead up. Hey, you tell me your houses of there. Who are you by the way? You kind of wrapped into my the. Of Got. Yeah I'm sorry. Like Julia neighbors. Sons Yeah Yeah. Work his kids Oh my God I got different. Three. Such a nice guy. I mean that's yeah. That sounds like you guys are as. How do you not? He's. Yeah, he's. He's passed now offers of again an airplane related common today to. Get into is is happening lie? Why are you in are bunker, sir? In my business, that's what you're asking technically. I. Kind of upstairs to your house, yeah, so I take the stairs and Mike Letter, and then my open, the hatch, and I opened the second half and I climb one. We're ladder and you're right in my house. It's directly below my house. My basements fucking crazy. Wait a minute your with. Yeah and another hat. She too has to get here. Yeah, got to listen to. You think it's your basement and not our bunker. Yeah, it's the basement of the house. The Ping House the pink whose opinions Mougins dating. Mouse. Bad. Sorry I don't mean to be rude, but you're a very anglo white guy with blond locks like. A Chinese to Swedish way what? What you're not, how are you? My parents. Sweden is the one with the Swiss Miss Coffee. Your parents are from Sweden. Is that right? If we if we can talk about this, that would make me just a load happier I. Mean I'm with you guys? Thing, but it just coming in on. Sorry, what what was that? He said the Swish in the Swiss. He's. He doesn't know that there's a difference. There one to one countries Switzerland. Very tolerant up until this point where you out of your way to not notice the distinction in my height from the average Swiss. I'm Swedish. I'm five eight. That's evident. Okay Switzerland all six feet tall, and I feel like it's a pretty important distinction, and I would appreciate it if you took note of it now, kid sorry. Swiss I'm sorry. There Mao. Pig Now Jinping from Sweden which is from we. Oh, you're from China from Sweden from China got it. There's nothing. That makes this total makes sense, so you live in our bunker, which is your basement of your house, which is attached, are bunker. No, I live in my house, which basement which is attached ear bunker I guess. How did you get in here? Is that a door? There's a door. How did you not? There's a door? I thought handle decorative, a decorative handle We've never seen that before. I've never seen a tape. I never heard I'm sorry. THAT'S NOT A. Bumper poising no bumper pool was a holy cow. Holy Shit I've always wanted to try Boca. That's cool so fucking. Check it out and astronaut cabinet asteroid. I'm sorry. What did you say? Astronaut Asteroids Asteroids. On the cabinet. I'm misreading and I'm just saying how the words fairness. It's an arcade game like missile command. I guess you could play in. Has My name on it like everything else, but you can. Play any of this stuff. It's in my talker. You grow your name on everything in here amount. Here's the thing you're sort of. Squad at your swatting your squad your, don't you? Don't have squatters rights when we when we living your little weight, or does he? I forget what Phil Sad about squatters rights, or have you just bullshitting? So we live in a bunker was A. Squatter guys I live. Here is my home inde- your intruding. Delayed on the ball. Is that what you're saying? This is our home and your intruding by existing. He lives in the bunker ice I'm staying there right now. I'm going through a thing. It's not it doesn't it? Doesn't point? We wait a minute. Did you just build a house in the past couple years. Because there was a new house that went up. How Old Your House I mean. Roughly two or three years I would say that's okay well the bucks laundromat easily. So you build a house, and then you carved your way into our bunker yet either that or dad. Didn't a bunch of hatches an escape route and you built your way into. Sizing, your bunker might have been here. I I was here second, and I think that takes precedence over whatever. The thought. President means. I, know the president's means I am a squatter at. I am this. You said you're squatting here. I like the way he's inching towards the door. means. You're moving berry. Slit your even shuffling right now yet. I'm. GonNa I'm GonNa get roll, but that doesn't stop us from noticing your human emotions. Human. I'm just GONNA. Look over and I. Barge theory goes. Darted into the bunker like God all right? We gotta find follow this guy. Hey How could you get mad? When he doing I can't hear you. Clearly here. Oh my God, I can't. With your little tour man's and just like we don't. He's just looking around he's. From the door don't open the full of shunt. The Doors Fall Shit. No, no, no, the room is full of of of wastewater. You got done open. The door stopped trying to open the door. No I'm going to get stopped trying to learn. Hands off seriously welded. Not GonNa get in this. When I was saying I said Mau. Mau Mau Maus with how are you? That's the thing I don't get. How are you Chinese with your whiteness? All right My parents are tiny ex-pats there from Sweden. Originally, they went on honeymoon. The Nice Eastern Eastern beautiful countryside of China, and they loved it. They decided to stay in change their names to fit in. Because if you don't have a Chinese name there, it's frowned upon. They don't really care about. Race their Anglo less knaves i. that's like cultural. That's just plain. Like wearing Obrero to Taco Bell, it's like. TACO bell. Oh Yeah Oh, my, God. Door and here let straight the TACO Bell. Oh my fucking God i. would never I mean I. don't it's possible it's thing. This if we could. Into Taco, Bell and barber tune. I would shit myself. And not. and. That's imply. Are! The I think it's weird that we open door and found out a white Chinese guy. I think that's the way we are. Sitting in his own home comfortably enjoying his day off, it's not your home. Okay, we need to serve. Need to figure out, so let's say we're gonNA divvy things up. This is the bunker. Is All okay, okay? Stop? Okay, trump. Okay, say how this room is. And half of juries, and that you've got like maybe the stairs, and unlike the bottom stairs, and just like anything else, that's in that room is hours right? Side the RUB. The rubbish was part of the bunk you. He doesn't get the was ours. Stairs because he built the stairs right from the hatch or no the hatch. You get everything outside. The hatch is not his okay. Let's let's cheese. What Oh. Yeah, there's a box of Tamagotchis I've. been talking about I've just been. Playing with your every. Look if you got to pay attention we're trying to. Maybe, we can work something out I. Like the idea. This guy rummaging through my valuables all day and night. just give me the valuables, and I'll pretend this never happened and then I'll go. Any time ago. He's never happened. No, don't give them my. I. Gotcha as I have my own. Want the. Mike! You can the microwave. Give him stuff. He's interloper, a freeloader or something. I don't. He's. Like Kat. It's a IT'S A. It's where. You can have that to. Your heart don't take my. Get my bags really quick. Pile some stuff well here. He's to go get his bag to get rid of stuff. Find, we'll be right back. Hey so we're back and now is God. Is sharpie from his bag. Rumpus Room and he's just his name on it all the objects. That's not yours and shit that he wants were trying to explain to them that he does not belong to not. What happens when you're when you were raising a communist country, you just take whatever you want. Okay well. We don't have to doesn't have to be an indictment of China China day with comedy when talking about stomach, human rights abuses. To. America. No now in China and in America we. Under, microwave? Yours listen I lived in China three months before after I was born before we moved. Try from for three months. Yeah and I have not experienced single act of human rights abuse. Because you live in an era, will you? You're a baby. Also. The thing is you were born males, and that's why you didn't get thrown in the ocean. I would remember if was a by. Rights abusing. Its offensive to pick through the girl babies in the Ocean I. seriously. There is a whole bucking wall panel at seaworld of Ohio dedicated all the little. The coral sculptures that came out all the babies go. Up Again. Always doing this whenever you feel like you're inferior to lear superpower as a nation, you're just. To the people of Hong Kong. In the streets. Or so, what is happening? Stop Hating. SKYPE username on. Pain. You said. Cheese buckets. To Brian. Renamed, Brian Brian. I'll put my name on your Shit Jack on your says Brian I mean. Where's my sharpie? You don't give one all right. This is your choice, you swatting. You're just squatting. Brian this stuff I. Just want to stay here. After the be that's. No no no. You can't. He's right in. Has a cat, now you both. Author taking all my good stuff, who got worse, the picture of the lawyer put my name on the floor. You can't just take time to Florida. Welcome to America's. Are Swear to God now. Don't stop writing your name on every last this. I'm going to do some crazy. All right man flip out! Walking doing. Push somebody that. I, only. See. What? What. Is your head. False. And Blind your. There's no way. In come up. It's it's an audio podcast, so you can still listen to it when you're blinder not. Everyone my name on anymore. Which is Martin? This is ridiculous he's going to. He's pretending to be injured. Hello what's someone there? We're right here now, we. Can See us. You're looking right at. I can't see anything in God is just keep. This purple per that's not even the right car, a blind person. Let's say. Something Oh my. There's no way. You? You pushed me. In your bunker and now you said it's your bunker. It's you live here on your property. And you push me and you made me blight you saying it. He barely I'm freaking out. On Your property and I've been assaulted. My ex wife's brother was friends with Colin Powell and I can have you kill. You can kill now. Come on me and it's. or he knows some extras that got a power to the. I'm sorry Jack I didn't mean to do. Oh. Lucky, sorry! What are we GONNA do this slow go to jail jail to pretty it's. Malcolm, we just. Look sorry, just want to take some stuff I guess I don't. Are you guys. Work still here you can see. I, mean I I'm sorry. I don't think you're blind, but. We're still here. I mean I could be swayed. Since it was on your property. Trade would be if I got the property. You don't turn. That's not. How are you trying to train suicide of our own bunker? I'm trying to make the world's fair. This is justice for Mao justice. I feel you have heard that show this for now. I can't believe this that I'd never say that. I don't understand what what do you want you want you want you want to? I want the bunker and I want the microwave and everything with my name on it, which I don't know where it is anymore because I can't even see it. Check him the bar. Brian GonNa live, and where am I going to stay I? Just got I just got got kicked out of my I'm sorry I just got keep. It's none of doesn't matter. It's all I. Think. It's a really aren't going well for us. Almost like so assaulted you emotionally me to. Bunker I guess you could just stay in my my man cave well On. Have living here. I guess you. You'll have to live as saying. You want to swap us the entire bunker for your one room I. Do see how it is possible. This is the only solution as far as which I can't, Jack. We have to do this. I mean it's it's. It's straight up communism again and it's like I, don't. Know I'm not sharing classic concert. Trade. Okay now if we don't train, are you going to like you? Keep insinuate property. What are you GonNa? I can bring up the DA into this. Okay, we don't want to. He said he could bring. Colin Powell. Colin Powell. Terry of defense. He's in charge of everyday shit. Are Fine fucking will. I don't think we have a choice guess. You. Don't have a choice. How? Guy. I noticed Powell. Lawyers come in here and they see my name all over everything and they seem need not seeing shifts. That's. A heap of trouble and we've been recorded. Before all right, why am I why? Why don't we just try it out? Why don't we will move into the rumpus room for a little bit? And you check out the bunker and we'll see if this if this is fine, you know. And and I get everything in here and I also want this stuff from my my man cave and hit. Just try that out, and we'll see how it goes. Our work on moving that stuff maybe tomorrow. Why don't we? Tired. Now, sorry, all right but I still want to come in through basement. Figured out okay, come on, let's let's. Get your get your car. We'll be right back. Okay, so. Sweet, shut the door us. That kit US anymore. I've got a plan I've never never give up this bunker willingly but I feel like we can probably wake up in the middle of the night in. Steal it back and maybe. To a chair and push them down a hill or something, or that sounds that sounds worse than what you already which is making you stay in? This rumpus reminded me. It's really nice I really comfortable. It's Nice we've come on. Let's play Bunkerville play needed. Give Up Dance fucking bunker are we're just gonNA stay your ass. Playa Task Straw set an alarm or monitoring and will wake up in the middle of the night. All right. We'll be back. Oh Man. We're back and. We did not Follow through on my plan. Of. Waking up in the middle of the night and murdering somebody using the shit out of now I just had the best night asleep or my life. Feel on this foods on. It was amazing The craziest thing is I was sleeping right next jack the whole night and I didn't even mind was. Crazy felt like I've never slept on on. This I didn't think through times can be made this. Nice. It's Kinda feel like relaxed. I mean I know a lot of bad shit's going on and got our bunker right now, but I was. Maybe the bunkers causing me more stress than I thought maybe I'll I need. My life is like a little turn on lights when you sleep. Light switch. Just having that power. I know how Thomas Edison must have felt when he invented the light switch, you know. Like I'm going through a lot, but man I feel I feel a lot better than I did yesterday. I think. I used his bathroom and it's really I. Mean it just. It's just one of those new bathrooms. A haddish's haven used a cushion toilet seat in probably the last time I used one. It's amazing I meet a breakfast sandwich from just stuff. I found him his kitchen and it was built. And it's like all organics. Didn't say we couldn't go into his house and it's typically connected so I think that's part of this rumpus room. You know what maybe we made out. Okay with this. The better part, a pretty good deal. I mean main. Dad probably just WANNA bring us together. I mean there's you know we can always like if we get bored. We can always sneak in the middle of the night and still duct tape them up and solve the mystery the bathroom. Everything, we need in here. There's asteroids. There's the bunker pools astern was yeah. It's like. Get down to my underwear, so said Brown bumper. Pool Hey we. Now, It's bumper pool without of Cuba, let's. Yeah Yeah. You just use your face. Was Sat. Right. Now now what's up, man? Hey, what's up? Hey, so I've decided to forgive you. And I'm not mad anymore. So honestly I say to forgive. Even angry actually anymore. I'm being. You're still flying's because you're looking right at me. Yeah, you're. Standing in front of me. Yeah I see. Oh, sorry, yeah, that's crazy! I don't even know how. You knocked on the correct door because it didn't hear any other knocking to now it's. Just happenstance that this happened. The point being I'm angry and I think it's better if we just went our separate ways I take back my room and then we we just. We like this place. The rooms a lot nicer than the bunker. If you think about it I, mean yeah. You wanted to trade. You get the bunker has all the the real amenities. It's very bright. Lights are even though there's no windows, so that's really cool. Like a cool friend built in like a rat, but it's still like it's nice, and it barely bites even very hard. You got. engaged. Catching. There's there's like. We spring that's. Some voices the ghosts of the dead Sorta just haunt. You guys both voices white. Voices in here. I think it's just I usually hear. It's just like the whispering in the in the background in the pipes inst- Brian. That's insane. I can't believe that. Took time. It's weird. How the pipe sound like they say my whole name. Maozhen Ping. When I'm trying to sleep and it's honestly guys. I'M NOT GONNA lie. I fucking hated in there and I want my room back and I. Get angry or press charges or resolution. Turned Chairman Mao over exactly. Now just like in World War Two. America has defeated China again. Well Yeah okay. the. Just, don't so you're saying you WANNA trade. Z. Background check and you won't call Colin. Powell or sue US right. I I probably will not. That's good enough for me I think now. Is. The sleep was what I didn't say that I. Still Negotiating I was thinking. Since. My half brother here seems to enjoy bumper pool so much. I'm kind of a family. Asteroids, Astronauts Cabinet has the. Asteroids astronaut. It's pronounced astronauts astronauts. It's missile command astronauts right? Yeah I think what he's trying to say is that. In. The trade back. Find but I'm writing my name on it. By me by screen. ME. Off later. Great and then I guess we want to make sure you never come into the bunker again. So how do we solve that problem? We'll figure it out. Let's just get the Dalai or something, and I could just promise promise. Room no dissing. figure out all the brass tacks later, but we'll be right back. Okay so it's it's about fifteen minutes later, and it sounds like it sounds like Maoz trying to duct tape and caulk his his his side of the wall shot, so we got some of the welding shish. The sewer worker was using and Jackie's ears, going to try to figure that out and seal it shut, GonNa try to. Add now if matters going to. You. And I'll start on the right, okay? No. Don't work with took. We're GONNA. We're GONNA seal you off shoot no order fillmore neighbors neighbors. No one ever knocks on on Capitol Monta Lottery. Ugly. Dude! What's CAST CASTING THE MONTE AUTO? Is that like actors studio? On? Putting I'm putting you in a wall in. Yeah, he's putting. You in the wall. It's fine. It's doesn't matter we'll. No, we're putting. Yeah, we're ceiling you off. You're not ceiling us so seeing each other off. It's fine. All Right okay, so we're just GONNA. Seal our neighbor away from us How did we get here? I can't believe. This room. that. You? Know what maybe we can recreate it somewhere or. Break into his house regular duct tape him for. Ya. We'll. We'll talk about that later. Fear Fine, we're. GonNa. By Dangers. That's all pathetic pathetic. Okay well. That's it for us this week. We're GONNA. Duct. Tape him up later and we'll talk to you later. Goal airplane but. Thank you for listening to Bunker Brothers Unmatched Shore Aka Brian. That was Mike Kohler as Jack. Special thanks to our guest. Alan Colmes has now the basement guy. Subscribe on Apple or spotify a rave review. We're on twitter at brothers, underscore bunker in on youtube and facebook as well stay safe, happy and healthy out there and is always black lives matter.

Brian Brian Carol I Colin Powell Jack Jack America China Sweden professor Bunker Chairman Mao Bunker Brothers Unmatched Shor Jackie NASA Brian Well Brian I Alaska Switzerland Paul Ryan rugby
Lenny Silberman On ESports, The Power of Sportsmanship, & Roberto Clemente

Marni on the Move

57:34 min | 5 months ago

Lenny Silberman On ESports, The Power of Sportsmanship, & Roberto Clemente

"You're listening to a fit plus love production. I had this global vision for teen engagement in something called the sport that I had nothing new nothing about never play video games I. Just it wasn't part of my DNA. But I had this vision and at that point. Life Change. Can I started to do what I did. Not I built a team of volunteers people that knew a little bit more than I did about gaming that there were a little bit about this. A little bit about marketing and philanthropy, and before you know it. Started to put some professional staff together started to raise some money, and with the understanding that we wanted to engage re-engage, not only Jewish teams within the Jewish community, but because of my background with Jason See all teams. That was Lenny Silberman. This is Marnie Sal. Thanks for tuning into my podcast money on the move each week I will be inviting interesting innovative movers and shakers to join me on the show and share their story you. You will discover an here from thought leaders, experts, influencers and entrepreneurs from the roles of wellness sports, beauty, fitness, fashion, and more money on the move will feature an eclectic mix of people I know work with and thank are generally doing cool things on each episode as sync up with my guests about life, career and training and showcase their expertise as story. Hi, Marnie on the movers. I'm so glad that you are tuning into this. During conversation today with the Visionary Lenny Silberman Money Silberman is the CEO and founder of loss tribe sports. He's the former VP of program services and Continental Director of the J. C. C. mcabe games, or he was for seventeen years past the former CEO of Henry Calvin camps where he was for ten years and director of Emma Calvin camp prior to that when he's work and accomplishments have been game changing in the Jewish community, worldwide for kids, teens and families. He has built a lifelong career around coaching. Coaching sports and Summer Camp Lenny has created transformative programs that engage multiple generations advanced personal growth and deepen community involvement, particularly nurturing positive Jewish identity in young people through sports in camp on today's episode, Lenny and I talk about where his career began how he has helped. Tens of thousands of kids develop tools for living for being good people and understanding the importance of community all through team sports. We touch upon his themes. mantras Aka Lenny `Isms we talk about his game, changing programs and ideas, including these of caring and sharing and Rachmat us rule. Lenny talks about his most recent career move into East sports and how his new company lost. Tribe E. Sports is uniting teams around the world in these quarantine. Times of course we discussed Lenny's personal health and fitness goals, and as an avid sports fan, one of his role models and favorite baseball players. Roberto Clemente Lenny, who's devoted his career to young people, his belief in the power of sports and recreation experiences transmit values. He's on. On the board and has worked on behalf of the Israeli Sports Center for the disabled in Ramat, Gan, Israel and single handedly raised funds for them to build a fitness center. He was also selected to represent the JCC's of North America as a member of the US Olympic Committee. He served on the USOC for fourteen years. Lenny has received recognition from the international Jewish Sports Hall of fame the National Jewish Sports Hall of fame the. The western Pennsylvania Jewish Sports Hall of fame and the National Council of Youth. Sports. I hope you enjoy what you hear. If you do, leave us a review, it's easy head over to your APP on your apple phone or device scroll through the money on the move podcast episodes. Click on five stars and leave us a review before we get started. I wanted to thank our sponsors mad ritual CBD. Today's episode is fueled by Matt. Matt ritual CBD Mad. Ritual CBD has changed my recovery game in a really big way. Get ready to recover like a rebel with these awesome high-quality CBD infused products their CBD. Bomb is off the charts. Amazing and I'm not the only one that thinks so mad. Ritual has one hundred plus five star reviews. The bombs have five simple organic ingredients, coconut, oil, Shea, butter, olive, oil, plant, wax, CBD and different blends of essential oils. Personally I prefer the Eucalyptus and peppermint. They also offer a terrific CBD infused total recovery supplement, not just for athletes. The products are formulated to ease all the aches and pains that come along with being an active human. So if you're sore from life, mad ritual gets it founded by women, athletes and active entrepreneurs. They are committed to helping active folks bring more balanced to their lives. Mad ritual is offering Marnie on the move listeners fifteen percent off head over to their website, mad, virtual dot com and use the code Marnie on the move now onto the episode. Where to Coaching Begin for you coaching ruin began when I started. My career Beckett the Pittsburgh. JC in the summer of Nineteen, seventy seven I was working in Pittsburgh Jason Day camp, and I was working on the department, and there was a group of guys that was just hanging out and one thing led to another in I, knew that there was going to be a summary coming up and said Hey, you guys say you WanNa play. Would you WANNA play in this league? And they said of course I have never coached before I mean I. I wasn't athlete. I got coach, but I never did any real formal coaching and. And! It's GonNa. Run I, said okay, so I signed up in the city of Pittsburgh was called open, and it was predominantly inner city black league, although there were some teams that came in from the suburbs that were white. We were the only Jewish team they'll that. We had dodgers and black kids on the team. We just signed up and we went to play and some games we did better than others and other games. We didn't show well, but it was fun. It was learning. It was unique, and it really started to get me going that something that I felt I was pretty good at. It wasn't necessarily so much. Much XS and OS. It was more the motivation to get the guys to play hard. It started out mostly with all guys. And then this is my career went move forward after the second or third year starting to have girls teams Jaycees as well, but summers really weird, kicked it off and the first couple of years. We didn't do so well then after a while, we started to win and win and win had a nickname we we were going in the inner city of Pittsburgh the JC was in the city, but now we were going in the inner city, mostly black community, and when we would get there, somebody would. Would say well. Here comes the TJ's and a good know what that men right away, and finally someone said you guys are tough gyms. You play hard. That's awesome. See Earn Your respect on the court basketball. You know. We played baseline that baseline defense. Food Court man-to-man pressure in part of the reason we did it. They didn't want to cut anybody. In the summer I always have ten kids or fifteen kids show up head to play everybody because again, but wasn't about winning or losing was having fun and getting better had a system where just put people in waves? You five go in, and you go in and you. Could get tired, so they would run the entire game, but we talk. We started to get better better and started to win, and you just use the magic word. We got respect in most cases that was more important. A lot of the kids winning and losing a lot of the kids went to school together during the year and respect us an important thing in athletics, so we'll athlete. Were you before you started coaching? From my friends at are listening I'll just say I. was a Wannabe Athlete I was I was just say that my parents on the Bay Cree, and when I was sick when I was a little boy. Because my grandparents live next door to us, my parents were my grandmother would take care of me whenever I was sick. She give me cookies okay. Get better so I had. This is the chocolate chip. Cookies had not had this addiction chocolate chip cookies I probably could have been a player in the NBA. I mean who knows the NFL the growing up? It's all because of the chocolate chip cookies. Yeah I, should I played basketball I play baseball I played flag, football, and tennis and I could hit the golf ball. Not Well I was a wanted the academic tried hard, but I was also had fun. And that's what you brought to coaching was like the fun of the sport as well. Yeah, I think I had some good. Good role models growing up at coach recreationally I learned early on that winning and losing. Isn't that representing yourself representing your family at representing the community? When we would travel somewhere, it was Jewish community. We had JCC across our chests so I was I was talking about not only playing hard it really about fair play and being a good sport, and early on I developed this concept called Rock bonus, which in the simplest form is fair play sportsmanship compassion was very few times that we were killing another team, but when we were, there was no need to run up the score. Sort of us a little bit differently, and it was values that I talked to my guys that interestingly enough that was in the late seventies and early mid eighties. I'm still now I'm friends with a lot of the guys and girls that I coached. That's what they talk about today I don't talk about just winning and losing. We did a lot of we had a lotta state championships under our belt that they talk about the values that they learned, and they're taking those values, and they're teaching their children. That makes me smile. That's incredible. That's a huge testament to everything that you've done at the JC C. You. Were the continental director of the J.. C. C., mcabe Games and Vice President of Program Services of the JC Association of North America, so talk to me about how you went from Pittsburgh in the J. C. C. to bring in the mcabe. Games for the ACC and everything else that you've done. It gets a little complicated. I'll take one step backwards were lined when I was in. Pittsburgh I I was involved with athletics and Sports and became the director. Had One day I mysteriously became the director of Emma Kaufman camp, which is the resident camp to sleep away camp and working town West Virginia, and I did that for eight summers, so my career was basically a round sports and summer camp, and had some success in Pittsburgh, and I really thought I was going to stay in Pittsburgh. An only child family business at they care my mom and dad, you know, and then one day I was at lunch with my mother I think she might have been celebrated. Whatever personnel kick, give her age although she'll be ninety on website. Oh my gosh. Amazing, which is probably thirty. About thirty years ago I just remember saying to I said Oh. She said how your career going and I said. Great things are going really well and Pittsburgh. I'm having fun. She asked if I've ever think about moving I said no way, and so they're to be here to take you and daddy now. Don't be ridiculous for young going you know, do what you gotTa. Do well what I didn't tell her had gotten a call from New, York like six months before to go and work for the umbrella organization of all. All the Jaycees North America, but I- nicely said I'm good here in Pittsburgh well. Then when she said what she said, it's sort of like the ball and chain came up my foot and I got home and I called the gentleman in new. York bit was recruiting me to come and I, said listen, his name was also ready ready Ruben blessed memory and I said look if the position still open. I'm interested well about a month later. They flew to new. York the way it worked back then it was your job to lose through some great interviews, and they offered me the job, and it was a three positions within one. There was like consulting and sports recreation and athletics and Aquatics there was consulting in day and resident camping, and then there was directed tasty. See mcabe Games which you Jewish. Olympics for teenagers and that was my job. I moved to. To New York in Nineteen, ninety-four and focusing on all three, but really putting more emphasis on the JC Mugabe Games because that was really fun that was sports and when I started, we had about fifteen hundred kids from about fifty different cities in three different countries, participating and the first Games were in Cleveland in nineteen, ninety-four, the Games back vein where every other year we have a North American set of games, and then regional games on the off years. By the time I left in two thousand and eight. The Games are happening. Every year we were over six thousand kids over one hundred cities participate in ten countries. It was phenomenal. It was really like one of the highlights of my career. In this one case, I think that as you well know. Every see is open for all racist color excretes national origins. You name it. It's a melting pot, but there are a couple activities within a JCC that are just for Jewish. Participation in the teenage space. One is JC mcabe games, and that's for kids that with thirteen sixteen and the other trips to Israel summer chips is. That's basically every JCC, mcabe of Israel. Those trips are just for Jewish. Jewish teens with mcabe. What we really wanted to do is build that program up and give kids a chance to participate in the play. Now we had division one level athletes and we had kids that just wanted to have fun. We had kids that probably never been on a team before, but I have to tell you when they walk into the opening ceremonies. This was just like the Olympics. Beginning middle and end, and there was an opening ceremonies, and when those kids worked in that opening ceremonies are usually it could be we an opening at Madison Square Garden at one point, probably every major city every major reno. You know we've been in at one point or another kids walk in with such cried, and they're wearing the uniform and they might not be able to dribble. Dribble and shoot at the same time or kick a ball that they're feeling it right then they're there an athlete on a team they have tried, and then the kids would go through the week. Unlike most youth oriented tournaments, you would come on a Sunday. You would leave on a Friday I. Remember I I was fortunate to sit on the United States Olympic Committee fifteen years. Representing Jaycees and when I would talk about Jason Macabre Games, people look at me like are seriously from the moon. So when a kid loses on Monday, they have to stay the rest of the week. I said well. Yeah. They lose on Monday, but they can still play on Tuesday and maybe even play on Wednesday. The ideas building community in the idea is getting kids to know each other from different parts of North America and the world. It's not about winning and losing and like some other youth tournaments that. No you lose, you got home. Oh! That's not what we did not only was that a little different but I think every other youth tournament in the world. They either stay dormitories hotels. We stayed with home hospitality. We wanted kids and families to get to know each other from different parts of the world. Really and it's funny. Talk to kids that came to Pittsburgh in in the late eighties, and a couple of them stayed at my parents home, and they still talk to me or they. The connections that are made from families that are still know each other decades later is just incredible well at the. The JC and mcabe Games you also developed a game changing program called days of carrying days of sharing talk to me a little bit about this probably in the late nineties when I was running Jason Mugabe Games I realized that there had to be something more than we could be doing. We were bringing these large groups of kids into the cities, and we were just playing sports and I had an idea one day that we should really give something back to the community that we're in. Long Story Short we created a program called days of caring they sharing. We took a half a day out of the competition to work with the community. Be It the special needs? Kids were senior adults with inner city. Children I remember in Tucson Arizona, we bag, rice and beans. In Omaha Nebraska we took kids from the boys and girls. Club, to target and Walmart feel schoolbags. We did so many of kindness, and it became a threat of the games the first couple of years by Kanye pay good money to come here to play sports. You're taking them out to do to duckling alarm blah. Blah, Blah. We just do the right thing to do and we did it and. And I remember again talking to people at the Olympic table about that. You know that you're bringing kids together to play sports. Maybe there's a teachable moment in there has to be more than sports and asked about be giving back repairing the world, doing the right thing and the Nice thing is not in my world in the nonprofit space. They say when you leave a program activity. You know if it maintains itself, you've done a good job or the JC mcabe games that maintain themselves and specifically days of caring days of sharing. It's a different name right now, which is fine, but the concept and still their kids are still volunteering time in a community that they're visiting. Good, and it's the right thing to do very very proud of that. What are some of the things that people say to you that takeaways from participating in sports as kids and trump goes back to the very beginning that so play sportsmanship. You're representing yourself in your family your community. To do the right thing, play hard. Those are the things that once you learn those lessons as a young person, and you really are bought in I think that this carries with you from generation to generation. If I can tell a story that I shared with the Olympics in the JC seaworld mcabe, you knew when the team from Akron was gonNA play the team from Los. Angeles there was no chance in this God's earth that it was going to even be close with teams from Akron at ten kids. One of them played high school basketball, maybe one airing. They're the team from Los, Angeles. They had ten kids. Everyone went to A. A different high school and I'll started okay, so that was the challenge, so we created this concept of this being a good sport, and not having to run up the score, and that really has become a fabric within the tapestry of the JC mcabe Games so here it is I'm at the Olympics and I'm sharing these stories you know with the people that I sat around was the other non for profit youth serving organizations, the boys and girls clubs. The YMCA native Americans boy scouts girl. Scouts special needs the military. That was our group within the Olympic Committee, and I would talk about these things they would look at me like. seriously, you're crazy. That would never work in our world, okay? Unless somebody's willing to try it and stand behind it and forcibly say this is a rule, and this is what we're GONNA do because it's about it's a teachable moment again, not about winning losing, but doing the right thing in teaching the next generation about sportsmanship. So I'm talking to a representative from the Olympics and said Lonnie. This'll better working Olympics and I said you know what I get it. In the Olympics, it's a little different, but the junior Olympics now you might have a different story. And? She said no way I mean. There was just no way that I was going to move this woman any which way okay so? About two months later, there was newsletter that came out snail mail, and there was a score the talk about the united. States sixteen and under thirteen beating country in Africa, hundred ten to thirteen, and I circled Kirk. wrote a note back I, said now. You tell me the value of this score. You tell me the value of those kids that were playing for. Whatever city was the ugly American did they have to do that? They're devastated. The kids that want big deal one by one hundred points. Really you WANNA go. Really, announced that, so I said listen, that's spirit a rough bonus. Okay, that's the spirit to Jewish value. Fair, play sportsmanship and to do the right thing, so you know that's something that I look at with what we did at the Games and how that sort of filtered through not only with the games, but so many parts within the JC world of future competitions wherever there on on our off the court and the summer camps, and really that's something that we started and my team and I really pushed it and we. We knew it was the right thing to do. You a role modeling, JCC mcabe Games were inspired by the Macabre are the Games in Israel. Yes, the mcabe take! It's probably a hundred years old right now. To sports healthy mind, healthy spirit, healthy body that's where it began a long long time ago in Israel, and then not only did it come to the United States, which the first year was nineteen, eighty two, but there's different. Versions of the mcabe experienced in different parts of the world as well. There's the European Games. There's games in Latin America. There's games in Australia. Different Times of the year. It's really a worldwide global movement. They do amazing amazing things that ACC mcabe games will one small piece of it, but an important piece. Yeah, how long were you at with the JC? So I was with the Pittsburgh JCC for seventeen years, and then I was with the JC Association for fifteen years, and then I left JC association to become CEO of Organization called Henry Kaufman Day camps in New York City Rock, actually in all the boroughs, we were the largest stay camping operation in the world with about sixteen different JC season, wise coming to our three facilities every day in the summer about five thousand dish, Campers and staff every day. And you build that organization tremendously. Well I got there. The organization was there, but it was sort of a momma and POPPA operation and. Again I'll just go back to being a coach. Just took out the game plan that I did back in the seventies and the eighties nineties, and I said I just have to build a team and build a team of winning professionals team of winning lay leaders in terms of building aboard a winning team of funders in partnership with all the different Jaycees and new. York Federation on in New York. Our job was to win. Now. You'RE GONNA. Say Well. How do you win the summer camp? Right Interested if it was Emma Kauffman camp where I was actually the director, and we have hundreds of kids there every day in the summer or the Henry Cooper campgrounds I always believed that if you had happy campers. and. A Happy Staff gotTA Happy Camp. Now, if you have a happy camper, staff and You're going to have happy parents. Now! If you have happy camper staff camp at parents. Your board is going to be very happy because you're bored. Is Not hearing anything? Negative. Was Complicated at the Henry Campgrounds because we were dealing with sixteen different JCC's so. A great day for me. A great summer for me is when. They didn't their executives didn't complain to me, or they didn't complain to the Federation where they didn't complain to my board. We were winning and that's what the goal was. Every day is that we try to keep everybody happy. We try to do the right thing. pry Try to provide excellent service ex-. Customer Service, keep things safe, and the kids have fun. You have been greased with many honors in your career. What are some of the highlights? I was inducted into the western Pennsylvania Jewish Sports Hall of fame okay. And honored by three different times. And, I was honored by the National Jewish Sports Hall of fame, which is actually located Suffolk JC why and Long Island and then I was honored several years ago at the international Jewish Sports Hall of fame in Israel. And is humbly as I can say it and I'm sharing it because I believe that there's the next generation that's coming up and they say well if he could do it. Maybe I could do it this point I'm the only Jewish communal professional can say that they've been inducted or honored, and al-Sirri that's so incredible and philanthropy also plays a huge role in. In your careers actually I. think it really started with my grandfather. My grandparents came here from Nazi Germany. They fled after crystal, and they landed in new. York and I remember my grandfather telling me stories about how again at the New York Jewish Federation helped him help to find an apartment. They helped him with French helped him with clothing. They helped him that. He tells me that after that experience because he never had that experience in Germany, he was a businessman he on the small department store and you know he was a philanthropic gentlemen there, and he came here with nothing and people were actually generous to him so I was fortunate that I grew up. You know with my parents, but my grandparents was either lived next door out lately. When I was a teenager, we built a new home, lived under one roof so I had role modeling of my grandparents, and my parents are was being generous in the bakery business. Now generous you know, was you know? It was Lucci a long line at the door. You know that asked my parents if they could donate something for the sisterhood or the men's Club where the synagogue or the Youth Department and my dad just never said No. So. That's what I. That's what I grew up with. How did you get into the baking business? Did they come to? Pittsburgh and they were bakers. Actually is start start with my grandfather. He was a businessman on the department store. The Nazis Kristallnacht you know this sort of I don't WanNa get into that big story bit. They had to escape and they. Fortunately we're able to come to America because we got an uncle here. That sent over the visas visas, so they escaped, and they basically kind of nothing they had to leave almost everything there. No money that's for sure and a couple of suitcases along the way my father he. He actually was lived in a small town in Germany, and he was actually taking to Dasa. When he was thirteen or fourteen death camp, and he was there for a number of years, he ended up, escaping from docile made it over to America. My grandfather got to America. Nobody wanted to give him a job. couldn't speak the language. He was an immigrant. He was Jewish and then one day he walked into this nice Italian bakery, and he basically said in his broken English listen. I worked for you for free for a month. Just give me some bread and some cakes for like feed my family a few life me, keep me if. You can let me go a couple of weeks later. They hired on by couple of weeks later. They made them the format of the business, so he started to learn baking. He knew he realized people have to eat. Rain so fast forward. There was an opportunity for a bakery to be purchased in Pittsburgh moved. The family to Pittsburgh bought the business. Eventually, my dad after he escaped from docile, was turned in Australia for a year Austrailia army after that he made it over to America. My mother and my mother got married. My Dad went into the family business, but he knows from baking. Okay, but my grandfather taught him right. And again somebody's I can say it. We had the best bakery in the city of Pittsburgh and at that time there was five within like a four block area within the Jewish community of Pittsburgh called Squirrel that we were very well known. We use the highest quality of ingredients. We were probably the priciest bakery I said. You know we would like New York bakery in Pittsburgh. We had clients. We became the only kosher bakery in Western. Pennsylvania for a number of years, and then ultimately you know when I decided not to go into the business western mission not to go in the business. They decided that they were going to retire, and they sold the they were going to sell the business, but rather they retired, and so my dad was A. He was gonNA. Be the butcher. Internship was back when he was a teenager and he became a baker now the natural thing would be well. Was He handle stick maker? I know he was dollhouse. Maker Oh my God. Yes started to make dollhouses okay, so a butcher, a baker and a doll house maker. Okay, that was you know his legacy. That's such a great story for sharing at so working hard and entrepreneurship is definitely in your DNA was again role modeling, and then I had the opportunities to do a couple of things in my life outside of the normal philanthropy that you would give to you know individuals, organizations, whatnot, and I'd probably say GonNa Probably to the highlights of my career. One was a organization that I helped in Israel is center for disabled children outside of Tel Aviv and I was there visiting when I was working for Jason Association and had a group of juice juvenile professionals with me. We went to visit I got very inspired by what I saw and. We were taking a tour and we. It took us into. What was a weight room well, it had a universal that Moses used that's Olga was and I said some Kogi and He says well. You know money's tight. The budget and I just said you know what I think I can help. I know a couple of people fast forward six with the help of a number of fitness companies that I have been working with at that time sabotage, international precor, or two of the big ones got a lot of equipment donated Raise some money sent it all. All over Israel on these big container got to Israel and Lo and behold you know. They opened up a new fitness center with everything. Some stationary bikes treadmills ellipticals to you name it. It was phenomenal, and it was an Aha moment because I know that along with a lot of other people that this is what we did, and it stayed for about a decade and now they've since. Since upgraded to the next level, but that was a real feel good, and then probably the one that is most special growing up in Pittsburgh, and growing up when I did my first hero with the great late Roberto. Clemente baseball player for the Pittsburgh Pirates, and Roberto was a role model, not only the way he played the game, but also is what he did off the field. Field, it's a matter of fact. He died in sort of a philanthropic way. Nineteen seventy seventy one he was taking a plane load of supplies, medical supplies and food to Nicaragua after the earthquake and his plane perished in the middle of the ocean, denied and terrible, terrible situation and fast forward it summer. Camp Emma Kauffman getting ready to retire from camp and move on to my next. Career in new. York and somebody was interviewing me and many of those one thing that you could do over. What would it be that you would have done? And I said Oh without question I would have had a tow run. It can't now toe raw. Very important within the Jewish community. You know you range from it on Sabbath, we always borrow one from one of the synagogues in Pittsburgh and bring it to camp. It was never. And we had a consultant come into camp. Interestingly enough. I've mentioned this name earlier ended up being one of my supervisors, and you know good friends and surrogate. Dad's sky. Lenny Ruben when he was consulting in camp in the late eighties. She says I think you have a Jewish camp without Atara and that always sort of stuck in my head, okay? Fast forward now I'm working in New York advocacy. Association we're Lenny Ruben. Works, there's a division. They're called the J. wbz chaplains vision, and they're basically responsible for Jewish servicemen and women throughout the world with the exception of Israel. So the rabbi comes into my office one day, and he says listen. We're getting ready to close the basis in Iran Iraq right before the war and we brought some terrorists home from the basis in there downstairs to you know any summer camps that might be interested in a tower. Ross awesome. My eyes lit up I, said they've, and then I said sorry rabbi, and he laughed I should take me down. Let's go see them took me down. There was a Torah I'm a big guy. There's Torah. That was his biggest me. Wait hundreds of pounds. There was a middle size one, and then there was a little one like a baby Torah. Baby away thirty pounds and I saw I went. The Big One is first of all. You can't afford the big one, but of all again in the Jewish tradition. There's on you know when you. Sort of listen to tower the put it back into the ARC. That's something called humble somebody has to pick up the tower. The put it back in right, so somebody has to be strong enough to lift the hundred plus pounds right, so he said to me and who's going to use these? What kind of campers do have? What's The ageism star? Always over one hundred and fifty pounds I, said maybe I should take the little one, so he took a little one, and again it was sort of right after my father passed away, so I said. Wow, this is great. I can either Toro. I can dedicate it in memory of my dad in honor of my mother. This is perfect, just one thing. I wonder how much it's. GonNa cost. Rabbi. GonNa cost. He says you can't afford it. For you, so it gives me the price I said Okay I can do that and I figured well. How am I going to pay for it and I gotTa take it from this Bank for this. This, this and I have an moment. Well, a friend of mine had given me a Roberto Clemente Game Used Baseball Bat, and that was my treasure, and I used to also be the sports collectibles, buying and selling and trading. And to have reverted Clemente baseball back that was like. Gold diamonds platinum I mean. It was like you were at. So if you know what. And I said it with like love and my heart. It's just a back and yes. Roberto used it touched it. He swung with it. But So I, said you know what and I've been watching this spat. Go Up in value from five hundred dollars to you. Don't even WANNA. Know so I said I'm going to sell the BAT. So I went to a national show in Atlantic. City I sold the Bat. Now here it is I'm Atlantic. City and I got a lot of cash in my pocket. I got back on the bus and I go home. I give the rabbi the money he needs I give a little extra to the Jason Association because a friend of mine had just passed away a colleague. Her family just started a fun and I was good to hear. It is. I got the Torah. We have to re kosher the tower of because it just. You. Know needed some touch ups by scribe, and now I'm getting ready to donate to tolerate to the CAM. We had a big ceremony. It was really special. My mother was able to come and as meaningful, and for fifteen or so years really couldn't tell anybody the story of the Torah because. The IRS and I could cash uh-huh Cain. Somebody told me as a ten year waiting period so anybody the IRS listening. Don't come. Give me I this love in my heart. We were going to rededicate the Torah and a friend of mine. Could friend Bobby Harrison? Atlanta he was in another camping conference and he was talking for some staff if they knew the story behind the Telera, how the regard to Emma Company can. They said No. So, bobby called me up that next day, and he said Larry. We gotta tell the story of the tower because it's an incredible story, who sells or Roberto Clemente Baseball Bat Tobia Torah. Nobody matter of fact, some people would say that they would sell the tower by Roberto Clemente Baseball Bat. So. We had a rededication and we invited Roberto Clemente Junior. To the camp and we rededicated the tower Roberto Clemente was there, he was able to speak on behalf of his family. It was again. It was a meaningful moment, not obviously for me. Okay, but more importantly for the kids that were there because they got to learn a little bit about Roberta's Dad, which most of them no crew. was. That's such a great story. You have lots of really inspirational sayings and life lessons that you learned and shared over the years liaisons I love this one. Take the high road. Tell me a little bit about the inspiration behind that saying I think everything always comes back to where I. started my career at the Pittsburgh JC and coaching and the opportunities to teach, it's easy to teach somebody to dribble a ball or to to make a basket, but it's the life lessons and we. We dealt with a lot of diversity along the way there was a number of occasions you know when we would go and different churches or if. If an facility, a lot of anti-semitism and I would be in that time out. I taught my guys and said listen on the high road. Do the right thing. Okay? We win like a champion. We lose like a champion. Those are just words, but I always believe that actions. Okay, we're stronger than words and it just as an example, so we'd be in a jammed, and we played in the Cyo Youth League Catholic Youth Organization. We were the only Jewish community center team. The plague and we go to a church, and there was just some stupid people there, and they would say stupid things. They would throw pennies or they just. Weren't nice. Sometimes, we have to have a police escort to come out and then when that church group came our JC. What did we do? Well. We put water bottles on the bench. We put towels on the bench. We cut up engines, so they had a snack at halftime. We did everything we could to welcome our guests into our home. A take a higher road. Okay to be able to sort of a teachable bombing in you know when you're. Doing that with twelve thirteen, Fourteen fifteen sixteen year old kids. I. Think it has an impact on now I know it has an back then I was hoping I didn't even know why was doing rang. It seemed like the right thing to do now i. know it was the right thing to do because twenty thirty forty years later, a lot of the same guys girls come to me where they post things on facebook or linked in. Remember this. You remember that so I know it was the right thing, and it's so important now I mean especially I'm talking to you and everybody's in quarantine and. Recently started. A new company lost tribe sports with I. Am sure is doing really well in this quarantine time. How did you get into East sports? You haven't told by now like a lot of stories. That's how we're going to get through this, too so the first story is very simple. I'm sitting in the backyard of a friend, and he's involved with philanthropy and just ask them what's going on in the global Jewish community. What's going on in America and one of the conversations that he had? was you know there's a really big divide right now? In the teen world of? Of Engagement, and there's a big challenge of reengaging teams back into the community now. This isn't just in the Jewish community post Bar Mitzvah that's really where at the age of thirteen. This isn't every community. Kids start to get independent and then the Jewish community. You know when I left New York. JC Association in Two Thousand and eight people talk about fifty percents of Jewish. Teens being this engaged when I came back into this game, people talked about eighty percents being disengaged. So if you're a business person and you're saying there's something wrong here fifty percent to eighty percent now. Post Pandemic Post virus could be ninety percent. Okay, because of situation but. I think you know what? Said to be I'm sorry he said to me. You know if you could solve that problem, you'd you know you're like an emmy? Oscar Nobel Peace Prize so we starting to laugh and joke. And who knew? A month later. Don Up my family's home in Atlanta there's three boys. The Middle One, the von he was downstairs the basement. There's older brother kind of where upstairs it's about eleven thirty at night I'm walking down the steps to where my room was and I. Hear All this yelling and screaming like a maniac I turn the corner. He's got these headphones on you screaming at the TV I. Get in front of the TV like then a thirteen year old. He's trying to shoot me out of the way. I don't take office headphones and I said what are you doing I said? Are you yelling at the TV or you insane? He should not have you ever heard of the Internet, and I said Yeah. Well I'm playing Eli over the Internet and I look around the room and I'm still looking for you I he's just no. Lenny over the Internet Marnie I, asked him to repeat it. I asked him a simple question. He had just played JC mcabe Games in Dallas. I said the you just played. You met one hundred kids playing baseball if you could play these hundred kids from all over North America. Lanny that would be amazing, used the word I can't repeat. I said. Okay Totally walk into my room and anti-god within thirty seconds I had this global vision for teen engagement and something called East sports that I had nothing new nothing about I never played video games I. Just Wasn't part of my DNA, but I had this vision and at that point. Life changed. And I started to do what I did. I built team. I built a team of volunteers and people that do a little bit more than I. Did about gaming that were a little bit about business, a little bit about marketing and philanthropy, and before you know it okay, started to put some professional staff together started to raise some money, and with the understanding that we wanted to engage in re-engage, not only Jewish teams within the Jewish community, but because of my background with JC all teams, but really the focus is on Jewish teens in the Jewish community. One thing led to another, and let's just say that. For a number of years, probably the first three years I have to make people comfortable with the uncomfortable because they had this vision of video games and kids being downstairs the basement, eating doritos and drinking, red bull, and where it is today, billion dollar industry, five hundred plus colleges and universities heavy sport teams. A number of them, hundreds of them are giving out scholarships. Probably ten thousand high schools now have these teams. It's tied into Stem Education Wall Street's in it. Every major network is in it and right now with the virus. If you watch ESPN. They're showing NBA two. K. Games and Madden Games and baseball games at race games I mean thank God so this big black cloud over the world, and there's the silver lining called Gaming e sports, so it's thing that we called lost. Drive you. Sports recreated created it. It's a nonprofit for all the right reasons. We decided that we weren't gonNA. Do any shooter games so we played the sports games that we play the fantasy games and we're really looking to engaging reengage Jewish teenagers in this very difficult time we've had is humbling. Incredible success so far I've had some incredible donors that have made this dream. Come true. We're looking for some major Jewish communal philanthropy to help us. You know. Get to the next level where we need to be. We have a five year vision. I have a number of amazing friends that believe in me. And believe in what we've been able to accomplish in the past and what's really cool? He's asked me a lot of questions and I really appreciate this, but at the end of the day. What East which made me do a stink about what made. The basketball program summer. Camp, Jaycee mcabe Games. What made them successful now? My uncle standards listening from Pittsburgh taught me a valuable lesson back in the late seventies was about. Budgets I can tell you all the wonderful stories about what we're doing, but numbers of budget, so I can tell you from a numbers perspective and a budgetary perspective. We're having impact. What did I do to make everything else accessible with the budgets numbers? When we had a summer camp, went from under one hundred kids over nine hundred kids or basketball program, a hundred kids over a thousand kids. We had to make everything that I was doing in the early part of my career. We have to make a coup funding competitive. And that's what we did with East sports except for. It was already cool fun competitive. So what we learned it was also social. So I. Just took that what we learned from decades and decades okay and everything that I had done. We put it into the East sport mix, and is what we came out with WHO funding competitive. Added a little bit of Jewish. It's very social in the interesting thing. Is that well and this goes to the pandemic? While parents were struggling at home on how to make zoom worker how to make Google hangout work, and how to network with your friends over the Internet. Jesse was already doing it rain. They were doing it through gaming, so there was a great lessons to be learned for their parents in order to be able to communicate with within and network and that's really you know the excitement of we're we're ad is being able to build these networks, and it's very predominantly male driven, but we're very engagement with getting more and more girls, so matter of fact than proper say one of our winters are last. Madden tournaments was a young girl that. She beat all the boys. It was great. When did loss tribe East sports launch? We launched February of I guess. It was nineteen in Denver at the BB. Yo International Convention where we sort of laid out our platform, and now we're looking to. Partner with all these different new serving organizations and collegiate serving organizations and I say again. I use the word humble as much as I, can we did you know this was a real estate company? They talk about. We did a land Graham, but what we did this organization or grab okay, and we really built our platform in saying to the community listen. You all don't have to do this independently. Let's work together. Let's build an organization that we can provide gaming if it's in the you space if it's in the summer camp space if it's at the collegiate space if it's in the in the day school space. We can provide you the technology in order to make this happen, and we can have regional tournaments. We can have national tournaments. We can have international tournaments right now. It's all virtual that ideally we want to have in person events. We were having in person events before the virus and we see all roads leading to Israel it went point you know for kids in college age students to get over there, and like what you do with the Macabre gains with the JCC right with mcabe with birthright to have another experience where kids that might never have wanted to go over to Israel Hey. Israel is the start up nation. They have more technology companies were startups coming out of there than? Any other country in the world, and there's a lot of east sports startups that are happening out. There are a lot of technology that's happening, and if we can get kids to go over there to learn a little bit about their history about the country about traditions and little bit about these sports, and then be able to gain in meet new kids from all over the world. Win Win. Yeah, it's amazing. What I care about is building community, and what we're doing in the Jewish community. Anybody can do any given community and the idea is once we build our community, you know. Let's go and hang with the boys and Girls Club. Let's go hang with their kids from the YMCA. If you had actually. I grew up in Pittsburgh. Was it was a it was a belting plot. So. Those are the kinds of things that excite me sat around third base in my career I. Mean you've come a long way with all of the things that you've done so what are one of your biggest sort of career lessons about pivoting or reinventing or taking things to the next level that you might share with my entrepreneurial listeners and myself? Short of what everybody else is saying? Follow your heart. Follow your passion every so often I watch something and Mark Cuban. He's from Pittsburgh Winter. M across and can't before I was director of and mark would always say if you're not all in I'm not all in. And I've always been all in. When I started sports wasn't all in I. Actually left my career as a CEO Henry Kaufman campgrounds to be all land, because that's how much I believe in this I left a great salary. To working for free for a year. because. That's how firmly I believe that this was the right thing to do. This is going to be a game changer, not only for the Jewish community but I believe for generation Z. on how we're. We're able to connect with them and how they're able to connect with us in the lessons, they can teach us along the way. You've accomplished so much in your career. How do you personally stay fit and healthy? If you, remember early on I talked about my grandmother, giving me cookies okay when I was sick, so I had this fixed chocolate chip cookies, which started the cake, which turned into almost anything sweet, so I got a little Chunky I'll just put it mildly and January twenty eighth I decided that I needed to go in well. Actually I decided six months before that that I couldn't do it by myself anymore. No matter how hard tried to work out whatever exercise whatever Diet I was on. It didn't work so I had bariatric surgery at Nyu on January twenty eighth. It was incredibly successful. The hospital is a great surge was great. I'm happy to say about I'm about seventy pounds, WOW! and. Because I'm still the weather's nice unable to walk probably for about thirty forty minutes every morning, and then in the evening I get on my bike. I an outdoor mountain bike I go for about thirty to forty five minutes again. It gets a little hot outs over a hundred every day, but because there's no great hills out here. It's not so bad so I. I I I get a lot of exercise that way and I'm hoping that when I get back to New York, you know that I'll be able to once again. Get into a strength training routine that I did when I was much younger. That's great well. It's good feeling rate you feeling good. It was successful. This was just like a couple of months ago then. January twenty eighth and have reduced three or four of the medications I. Already take, so that's exciting. That's great congratulations. That's huge. I I'm very very excited. I guess if I. Say this next thing I probably have to do it Sean GonNa. Say I'll hold you accountable for my goals was to be able to walk the New York Marathon and they won't be able to run it that far, but I think I can walk it, and that's one of my goals. Okay now, my next level of training to be able to do that one day so I said it could go. Hey, ready, willing and able. Yeah, so maybe twenty twenty one. This has been so great money. Thank you so. Much for hopping on a call and for sharing all your stories, people can go to your website and learn more about you, right? What's your website for each sports? It's lost tried East Sports Dot Org. In for my own personal one and the only reason we did. The personal is I thought I needed to find a job. At one point. It's Lenny Dot Silverman. And we I guess we should also thank my good friend. The Big Bunkerville Abramson for connecting you and I still is awesome, and I'm so glad that he connected us, so thank you bill Abramson. Thank you so much money. This has been a true pleasure. We wanted the highlights of my life. Search. Thanks again for tuning into Marnie on the move. If you like what you hear, leave us a five star review in Apple podcasts. Follow us on social at Marnie on the move for facebook and instagram and Marnie sal up on twitter. Hey over to our website Marnie on the move dot com for more INFO on this episode. Links in the show notes, and of course sign up for our quarterly newsletter, the download to get updates, deals, giveaways and information on future events for twenty, one, thousand, nine hundred. I WANNA. Hear from you. Email me money on the move. Wanted Gmail.com and let me know what you're enjoying what you want to hear more of. If you have questions for gas, just reach out.

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The Threat of White Nationalist Terrorism

Words Matter

42:24 min | 1 year ago

The Threat of White Nationalist Terrorism

"Welcome to words matter with katie barlow and joe lockhart welcome to words matter. I'm katie barlow. Our goal is to promote objective reality as a wise man once said everyone is entitled bill to their own opinion not their own facts words have power and words have consequences joe last week. You sat down with darrelle johnson the former senior domestic terrorism analyst at the department of homeland security and the a._t._f. Johnson wrote a two thousand ninety eight just report on right wing extremism that predicted a lot of what is happening today now. Usually we do what else is on your mind at the end of the show but given given all of the issues involved last week. We wanted to talk about gun control at the top so joe twenty years ago. You were the white house press secretary during columbine in april twentieth nineteen ninety nine and sadly nothing has really changed since then talk about gun control from a political perspective where where is the debate politically yeah well. You're you're right to mention columbine. I was the president's press secretary then i went and to the oval office and let him know that the shooting had happened and <hes> then traveled with about two littleton colorado <hes> to visit with the community the school the families the president went family to family talk to every single family as long as they wanted to talk <hes> we were there for hours and as we walked out of there i think we all had a common sense of resolve aw that we were gonna fix this problem <hes> and we worked at it and used every amount of political capital. We had and we just couldn't move the ball. The <hes> entrenched interests in whether it's the n._r._a. The gun manufacturers the republican party stood against making any change doing anything to make the country safer and <hes> we had another moment <hes> during president obama's presidency a win newtown connecticut where where you know young children were killed. <hes> it just the worst thing that i think any of us have ever seen and again. There was resolved. President obama put put everything on the line and again. Nothing happened <hes> parkland florida you name it. <hes> virginia tech nothing happens and my prediction is one of the reasons says we're gonna focus today not on gun control but on domestic in white nationalist terrorism his because nothing is going to happen again so whether it's columbine newtown parkland dayton el paso this has been going on for twenty years. We hear a lot of i thought's and prayers we hear a lot of we're going to get something done this time twenty years on. I don't expect anything to change and i have to tell you <hes> if you'd asked me walking out of columbine high school twenty years ago. Would we be here today. I would have said you're crazy that the country knows oh so we've got to do something about it but the entrenched interests <hes> continue to win and i don't see that changing even near twenty years on yeah i agree i i was eleven years old at the time and the daughter of to public school teachers and the conversation around the kitchen table and and the teacher conference room table bowl which i was privy to at the time just because i had two of them in my household was about how we treated students in the classroom. They blamed aimed video games. The matrix was popular at the time and so was you know kind of goth clothing for making trenchcoats cool and violence attractive. There are a lot of things as we blamed but they also knew that there was a gun problem at the time and i'm curious what the conversation was like at the white house during those months afterward afterward and if the conversation was initially about video games and afford just recycling the same exact talking points twenty years later that we saw on on fox news this past weekend that video games are to blame here and solving that and more prayer in school will help solve the entire issue. I think video games have been an issue for the last twenty years. They are not central to the gun control issue. There's no science that shows there's a causal relationship affect their science and scientific studies show that there is no causal relationship between violent video games and those who commit mass murder and and there is increasing evidence that the real threat the growing threat in this country over the last decade has been white nationalist terrorism domestic terrorism. There is all sorts of evidence of that and that's something we need to focus on right. These really are two distinct issues so let's listen to your your interview with domestic terrorism expert darrell johnson our guest today is darrel johnson a former senior domestic terrorism some analysts at the department of homeland security and the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms back in two thousand nine. He wrote a v._h._s. report on right wing extremism that was widely circulated in both the law enforcement community and the press darrell johnson. Welcome to words manner thank you. I tell me a little bit about the experience that you brought to the table to be an expert on a domestic right wing terrorism yes of my interest in this. This topic actually goes all the way back when i was fifteen years old i remember reading about a standoff between some white supremacists and the f. b. I. down in arkansas on a remote mountain region on the shores of a lake and this group was called the covenant sword arm of the lord and i was just curious as a young man y a church <hes> would basically take people from their jobs and move out to this remote area cut off ties to family members and await the second coming of jesus and prepare for armageddon and <hes> that just kind of something i was interested in and as i grew older <hes> and went to college and majored in criminal justice i did papers on these types of groups and later turned that into federal career <hes> so i started out a ah the army counterintelligence center at fort meade and <hes> was studying terrorism over in asia and also latin america and right after the oklahoma city bombing <hes> they need someone to help with the force protection effort here in the continental united states so that's when i started my career looking at these types types of groups and <hes> that eventually led me to the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms where i really gained my expertise supporting agents in the field and their investigations and later later win over the homeland security department to head a team of analysts we hear a lot about <hes> all of the work all of the money all the personnel that goes into fighting islamic terrorism terrorism that originates outside the united states. Can you compare that investment to what we do. Domestically yes so new in comparison those analysts that look at domestic terrorism can be measured in the dozens <hes> throughout the federal government where we've got hundreds of analysts us looking at <hes> overseas threats in the intelligence community where i worked for a number of years <hes> we've got entire agencies that have counter-terrorism offices his <hes> with hundreds of people looking at foreign threats. I'm talking about the c._i._a. N._s._a. The military services <hes> even the f._b._i. <hes> but here domestically <hes> the only agency that really has fulltime resources devoted to this topic is the f._b._i. I let a very small team of analysts at homeland security ready for about six years looking at this topic but my unit was shut down in the aftermath of the report that i wrote no nine so i'll come to that in a minute but is is it fair to say that we have chronically under invested in domestic terrorism over the last couple of decades that is a fact and that's something that i've been trying to raise as awareness in the media about so. Let's go to your report. You write a report for d h s what prompted you to write the report. What did it say and what was the reaction. Yes so two years earlier in two thousand seven <hes>. I received a call from the u._s. Capitol police tipping us off that <hes> an african american can senator from illinois barack obama was considering running for president and they wanted our unit <hes> to basically monitor the internet chatter from extremists and to see if there is any threats directed to barack obama so after about a month or two after he had announced his <hes> running for president. We didn't really see any threats. It was only when he won the democratic nomination that the threat started rolling in and we started handing that information off to both the secret service as well as the capitol police right after we. We received that requests for information. I pulled my analyst together and ask them <hes>. You know what if what if barack obama the first african american <hes> <hes> gets elected to the presidency. What is that going to do to the threat landscape in this country because overwhelmingly since nine eleven are u._s. Counterterrorism efforts have been looking at both al qaeda overseas coming into the united states as well as those radicalizing within the united states who are muslim or sympathize with al qaeda <hes> and we all agree that <hes> these white supremacists and anti-government groups would get very agitated an active <hes> an african-american became the president at the white house so that's when we started collecting information <hes> pulling sources from the world wide web state local law enforcement reporting federal reporting being non-government organisations civil rights organizations and we just started collecting <hes> any and all information related to <hes> threats <hes> because has of having a black president to other things that factored into the report was the downturn in the economy that we had an overweight and how that served as kind of a fertile ground to recruit more people into anti-government groups and we also had returning veterans coming back from the wars in afghanistan and iraq who we were concerned about being targeted for recruitment <unk> by these groups so that's kind of the genesis of how the report was put together put together over an eighteen month period <hes> went through twenty-three rewrites <hes> coordinated with multiple agencies and we put it out. We brief napolitano <hes> about couple of days before it was released and everybody thought it was a great report now. How napolitano is janet napolitano. Who's the head of d h s at the time before against the reaction i wanna have you looked back a little bit. According to the report and some subsequent testimony you gave to congress you noticed an uptick in domestic groups activity <hes> terrorist oh groups extremist groups not just because of obama by because of a democratic president you saw something during the clinton administration game we had oklahoma city so was is your concern that they the extremist groups were both anti african american but anti liberal democrats yes so looking at this issue over the past four decades <hes> i've seen cycles when we have democrats and power typically the far right gets is more active and agitated because they're fearful of gun legislation being passed or they're fearful of the democrats expanding rights to minority groups favoring favoring immigration things like that typically during republican administrations these right wing extremist groups decrease their activities and we see more of the far left getting active and agitated because they're fearful of the republicans deregulating various industries that are polluting the environment and also giving tax breaks to the rich so that's kind of the cycles that i've seen over the past forty years and of course this current administration bucks the trend of these cycles michaels. We've got these right. Wing groups still continuing to operate a heightened level under a republican administration will come to that because i think that's a really interesting point but tell me about <hes> the report went went through twenty three rewrites interagency went to janet napolitano. What happened to the report yeah so we release it a few days. After briefing the secretary of homeland land security and <hes> we were very pleased with the results we thought we done a good job at warning <hes> state local law enforcement of this <hes> anticipated paid change and the threat landscape <hes> so that they could have some <hes> ability to kind of prepare and develop policies and devote resources and money to combat the problem and to my surprise <hes> the report was leaked immediately and the next thing i know coming into the office <hes> the following week utter chaos us had broken out in the office because we were being inundated with phone calls from concerned citizens thinking that we were pro- <hes> spying conservatives <hes> we had congressman calling being <hes> demanding to know the sourcing that was involved in creating the report and it was all over the conservative media as well as mainstream media <hes> but the conservative the media tended to take a more negative approach to the story <hes> saying that <hes> we were spying on conservatives that we were <hes> demonizing and painting. Can you know conservatives as being potential terrorists military vets felt like they were slander because we had mentioned that possibility than being recruited <hes> and so it turned into to this big political firestorm which you know. I never anticipated basically what you're saying. Is you ran into dc politics with the benefit of having some time reflect on it. Do you have any further understanding of why <hes> conservatives and republicans were more interested in the politics of this than the substance yes very unfortunate that the warning and message got lost in all this <hes> political mudslinging <hes> but looking back on in it <hes> there were a couple of things that i think fed into this republican backlash to the report. <hes> the first thing was <hes> unbeknownst to me. A new movement within the republican party called the tea party had formed and we're holding protests throughout the country around the same time this <hes> report was disseminated. <hes> the second thing the republicans were coming off some tough losses in the two thousand eight election not only did they lose the white house <hes> but they also lot lost a lot of seats in congress and the the senate and the house so i think they were just kind of looking for anything that they could use to try to drum up. New base of support in anticipation is a patient of the two thousand ten midterms and my report became that as an analyst not a political operative. You're surprised by this <hes>. I think i know from reading that you are a registered republican. You're not crazy. Liberal like a <hes> didn't the reaction of two thousand nine to bury the report <hes> and criticized the report <hes> in some ways set us up for where we are now and in some ways make the country west safe. That's correct <hes> because my report was politicized. Not only was the warning and message lost but created a chilling effect throughout the law enforcement and intelligence communities you know in in my office <hes> not only did we get all this scrutiny from both the public in congress <hes> but people few people lost their jobs. <hes> a group of analysts were retaliated against people inside the intelligence and law enforcement communities saw this happen and they're like well. This could happen to darrell. Who's got all this training in in in in analytical skills this could certainly happen to to me and so the topic of domestic terrorism is already a political minefield because we're talking talking about extremist movements that focused on very divisive issues here in america like gun rights and immigration and abortion rights and other things so this is kind of exacerbated aspirated the situation in and made people even less <hes> willing to follow this topic and my monitor it properly and so here we are ten years later. If people would have taken my report seriously we would have devoted more money and resources to the problem we would have mature not only intelligence but law enforcement <hes> programs and countering bovine extremism programs that could have stemmed this threat somewhat. That must be personally very disappointing for you. Yes frustrating disappointing in really really sad. <hes> because lives have been lost. This problem has just grown year after year month after month and the body counts are getting larger with each attack not too long ago there was a time when we would have to three or four people killed <hes> now. We're up to twenty two in el paso taking it away from politics for a second what drives these people. <hes> you know i think both your report and even more your testimony before congress in two thousand twelve got into some of the root causes i. I was hoping you could share them with our listeners. Yes so we identified. A number of root causes in the two thousand nine report. One was the unprecedented election of having an african african american elected to president. This is like the white supremacists <hes> worst nightmare come true <hes> i remember as a teenager going into us bookstores and and seeing joke books that had racist jokes and things of this nature talk about to win a black occupies the white house then you'll know that america has descended into a crap hole in that it'd be at its lowest point so this is what these big gets in hate groups <hes> talk about chatter of course the economic downturn <hes> <hes> created fertile ground for anti-government groups <hes> such a sovereign citizens that exploit people who are financially desperate try to feed them a bunch of conspiracy theories theories and the different <hes> things about why the economy collapsed and how they can use these pseudo legal maneuvers to get out from under their credit debts. Let's and then of course having a democrat empower again agitates some of the anti-government tights because they're fearful of gun legislation and you know fringe men on their second second amendment rights but there's a whole host of things that play into these <hes> cycles. Those are just a few i notice in some of your writings that free trade is one the most difficult issues to really understand the details of but it's a driver of right wing extremism some ways yeah four outsourcing of jobs jobs unemployment <hes> when people i guess aren't focused on their livelihood <hes> their mind tends to wander. I guess there's that old phrase than in an idle mind becomes the devil's workshop <hes> certainly applies to these <hes> extremists and how they go about marketing their message so let's fast forward to the current situation relation i i'm interested in the information flow to these right wing extremist groups to domestic terrorists. Let me start with the media fox fox news info wars <hes> how important are they <hes> in providing the the content in the fuel to to the hate and and to <hes> eventually the <hes> the terror axa. We've seen yes so whenever media organizations <hes> take a strong stance against certain issues and start raising the rhetoric on these types of issues. You're always risking pushing those on the outer fringes ges <hes> who are on the brink of acting off the edge to the point where they conduct acts of violence so words do matter <hes> from our politicians from the media <hes> and then you have even more extreme <hes> forms of media like alex jones info wars and shortwave radio programs that get people spun spun up and more agitated with the rhetoric and the tone that they take. It's one thing to watch fox news and if you're wack may bang my head against the wall and say it's making people crazy but it sounds like you're saying that this actually does help mobilise these groups and mobilize them in a way that they take action. Yes so we saw <hes> <hes> couple of incidents in the past year. Two were extremists were mobilized into taking a stand against a government. I'm referring to the bundy ranch standoff off and bunkerville nevada as well as the mao here wildlife refuge takeover the way the media conservative media kind of handled that as they try to talk about these people people being patriotic and doing the right thing and taking a stand against the government but in reality you're emboldened these people by reporting the news in that way <hes> these people all pointed guns at federal law enforcement officers <hes> they took over a federal facility for over a month destroyed some of the federal facility so rather rather than painting these groups as patriotic and standing up to the government. They need to be called out for what they are. They're radicals their extreme <hes> some of them turn into terrorist. I <hes> these ideologies <hes> that these groups belong to <hes> make calls for violence and provide the targets for these radicals to go after one of of the more interesting things in reading your work is the difficulty in combating domestic terrorism is not the traditional terrorist cells that can be disrupted upped but you know what you call the lone wolf problem. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yes so back in the eighties. These terrorist groups here in america were successfully infiltrated by law enforcement and a lot of their activities in groups were disrupted and people arrested <hes> so in lieu of that <hes> <hes> the domestic extremists have adopted this leaderless resistance strategy. It's actually based on an essay written by prominent white supremacists who was a vietnam veteran taran who studied the art of warfare wrote the essay called leaderless resistance which calls for people to self train to identify targets gets within your community not to talk about what your plans are not affiliate with groups because there's the risk of informants and agent provocateurs tour's within the groups themselves and so you operate and stealth in secret and you secretly plan and plot and prepare for your attack <hes> so this as you can imagine poses a unique problem for law enforcement because it's very difficult to identify and prevent these people from in carrying out their attacks on the other hand <hes> because you don't have a professional training camp or some professional bombmaker teaching the bombmaking skills a lot a lot of these terrorists capabilities are less sophisticated so you don't get the sensational type of tax that you would see from an isis or al qaeda cell so that's it's kind of how they operate. Those are the tactics that they use. They do it deliberately so that they could avoid law enforcement detection so it's clear from the way your report was buried and your your congressional testimony in the lack of action <hes> that we're not doing enough if we made you king for a day <hes> what do we need to do. What what steps does our government government needs to take. I take this threat seriously and then to combat it. There's so much that we can be doing. We're so far behind the curve <hes> trying to catch up with this threat. That's had ten years to grow and into fester <hes> it all starts with recognizing <hes> these acts of violence as terrorism and with that comes the ability to start tracking it and gathering statistics and then you can gauge whether it's growing or whether it's <hes> decreasing and at that point <hes> if you decide that it's increasing and getting worse we can devote resources and money towards the problem <hes> as far as where route focused. My efforts is going to be multifaceted from the federal level you need more agents and analysts devoted to investigating and assessing this threat <hes> <hes> are countering violent extremism program that we have in place currently is exclusively focused on countering radical islamic extremists <hes> that program needs to be the expanded to have an equal balance between both non-islamic and islamic extremists <hes> training these to be improved and increased for for our state and local law enforcement officers analysts that are on the front lines of dealing with these extremist groups from the community level. <hes> people need to get involved. <hes> <hes> they've got friends family members or relatives that are embracing these extremist beliefs <hes> rather than isolate them and ostracize them. We need to embrace race these people and bring them back into the mainstream society and give them a cause to live four politely challenge and humorously challenged some of these extremist beliefs jason you know try to rationally explain how their poisonous to the mind in that there is something that <hes> is not welcome in today's modern society so there's a lot the things we could do. It's got to be a top down approach as well as a bottom up approach so we're in reading your report from two thousand you anticipated the election of a republican publican donald trump in two thousand sixteen to tamp down a right wing extremism of it's not quite what happened known we can. Thank the heated political. Go rhetoric of the two thousand sixteen campaign for the continued rise in heightened activity of these groups <hes> this current administration needs to understand and that when you mainstream extremist ideas such as building border walls in banning muslims to travel the united states and mass deportation of immigrants grunts these were extremist ideas that i read about ten or fifteen years ago on white nationalist websites <hes> now they're being endorsed as policy by administration astray shen also retweeting messages from conspiracy sites about muslims an extremist sites again. It's giving a green light to these extremists is that they have somebody in the presidency that tacitly supports their belief system and their movements and turning a blind eye to what they're doing and and so they're looking at that as a license to misbehave and to conduct acts of violence when i was reading your report and you talked about the root causes beyond beyond just hatred of change patriot of african americans and you started digging into economic anxiety to <hes> immigration anti free trade agreements to me read like the trump campaign seemed to be built <hes> and the foundation of it was this white nationalist this philosophy that you had studied in the nineties and through two thousand twelve at least yeah definitely catered to the extremist message and created a support base you recently told a columnist for the new york times that <hes> what surprised you with trump <hes> or with a republican winning was it it increased and you talked about what trump has done is added fuel to the fire. How's he done that. He does that through <hes> demonizing using and dehumanizing his opponents. Whether it's the democrats <hes> whether it's the media calling it fake news weather. It's immigrants coming into the country calling them invaders or an invasion likening people to rodents calling third world countries crap whole countries. This is all the tone in rhetoric of bigotry and hatred <hes> kinda stirs up the radicals <hes> to the point where they start looking at these people as targets you said mainstreaming ideas i think about it <hes> along the same lines as normalizing <hes> right wing extremist views <hes> and giving a green light to domestic terrorists to move ahead where they didn't feel like they had that before i i think of it from a political point of view but you have the expertise. Do you think that president trump has normalized this behavior and has that been a trigger for for some of these domestic attacks. Yes he's allowed this environment to persist as well as become more pervasive when he uses that rhetoric that i've talked about <hes> when we had charlottesville and other attacks he tries to minimize the threat he tries to s- <hes> say that the far or left and the far-right pose an equal thread or try to say that there's good people in these rallies and protests again. These are all things that it kind of <hes> emboldened these extremists and give them a permissive environment to operate. I wanna read something that you wrote in your congressional testimony in two thousand in twelve <hes> and then just pose a question to you you wrote i often describe extremist ideology and by law enforcement training as a poison absorbed into a person's person's mind extremist ideology uses deception half truths and blatantly false and often over simplistic explanations to solve complex national issues or personal problems. Extremist ideologies are quick to blame others for these problems often providing justification for violence wants and criminal activities scapegoats are also given people organizations and institutions providing a lengthy list of potential targets to avenge install grievances. I read that and i thought it was one of the most profound and accurate descriptions of donald trump. I've ever read <hes> may be taking out the last the sentence. Do you see trump as someone who engages in the same type of blatant falsehoods have troops sort of self defense mechanisms mechanisms that seem to characterize many of these domestic terrorist groups. He's speaking their language. He's trying to take their ideas and implementable. Policies sees you know we've seen two recent examples of how trump's rhetoric inspired people to conduct acts of violence. The one shooter that we had adenola paso left a manifesto and used the very same language that our president used to describe immigrants as invaders as an invasion as rodents <hes> <hes> we also had the serial bomber last year right before the election that serial bomber targeted all of those trump opponents the fake news that trump says <hes> the democrats <hes> that trump opposes so by merely dehumanizing these people <hes> there's certain <hes> radicals out there that may be mentally unstable that may just be waiting for something to to serve as a catalyst to egg them on to fall through with their plans. <hes> those two recent examples right there were words from the president actually inspired people to target the opponents of the presidency. Give give me your worst case scenario over the next couple of years assuming trump continues in his presidency of this issue of this problem yeah i think i think that we're at a point now where these groups are going to continue to operate at a heightened level even if trump's not reelected <hes> because we've we've neglected this topic. We haven't devoted any resources or money to really combat it. It's head ten years to grow if we decided today to devote all the money resources is to vote at this problem. It's still going to take many years for us to slow the momentum down and we're also at across point in our country where the demographics are changing changing the very fact and that's what's pushing a lot of these <hes> white supremacists and other extremists over the edge and wanting to commit acts of violence is because they see america's this color is changing from white brown and <hes> they don't like that and they want to do something about it so unfortunately i don't have a very optimistic view of the next few years you. That's the worst case. Give me some sense of hope here that we can address this problem well. The only hope that i see at this point is we finally have government officials including the president calling this as terrorism <hes> whether or not he continues to have that same aimed view or whether he truly believes that at least that's the very first step is to try to recognize and identify the problem <hes> so that is the only thing i doc at hope. <hes> cling onto at this point is being hopeful <hes> so hopefully <hes> these recent attacks <hes> the fact that they're getting worse than that more more more people being and killed and injured <hes> that our government officials legislators law enforcement and the executive branch will finally wake up and identify this problem and do what's necessary aid to combat it. I have no doubt that when and if president trump listens to this podcast <hes> his tweet wilt call you things like nasty the and loser but <hes> anyone who recognizes that words matter on this podcast we love and certainly listening to you. I think most of the country would disagree with the president would call you a patriot <hes> and we deeply appreciate the work you've done <hes> it's tragic that much of it has been ignored nor for so long but as you said <hes> it is coming to the forefront i encourage you to continue to speak out and get people to pay attention to this is because the threat to america particularly listening to the f._b._i. Director recently <hes> the threat is inside this country and it's it's more dangerous than the threat outside. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your insight and wisdom. Thank you so much. I really appreciate those kind words important interview joe. What surprised you the most what surprised me the most actually was this is a guy who's a registered republican this. This guy who at fifteen years old was <hes> reading up on criminal justice and wanted to be involved in the f._b._i. The a._t._f. <hes> not some you know crazy liberal and he drew a straight line between donald trump's rhetoric and the el paso <hes> mass mass murderer and he drew a straight line between republican resistance to taking on this issue <hes> and the fact that these groups jobs have been able to grow while the republicans forced us to look the other way <hes> again <hes> i think his work is invaluable that the end of all of these things. There's always a look back and i think we're going to be. We're going to see that there are there. There is blood on the hands of a lot the people in the conservative movement whether it be politicians media <hes> the president for ignoring this problem and ignoring it in a way and dismissing missing it while these groups were allowed to grow okay now back to regularly scheduled end of the episode. What's on your mind joe the first issue we he wanted to get your thoughts on this week is teleprompter trump versus twitter trump last week in the aftermath of the el paso in dayton shootings. President trump read a statement from teleprompter l. A. prompter in what some commentators said looked like a hostage video explain for us joe teleprompter trump versus twitter trump and why it matters well teleprompter tur- trump is when the president gets serious look on his face and actually reads the words on the teleprompter. That's not donald trump. We know it's not donald trump <hes> because each and every time within a few hours he's negated everything he said this time <hes> his speech was <hes> <hes> <hes> unity over racism and each and every time he's he's absolutely turned around and said something different now. If you want to know what the real donald trump thinks redes- tweets and watch him afterwards i watch him after he seen the press coverage when you look at the dayton and el paso trips there's part of it that the only way i can describe it as sickening teleprompter trump should be ignored. It doesn't mean anything <hes> the real. Donald trump is the nasty tacking narcissistic. It's all about me trump. It's all about the respect for him. <hes> that you see when he's not on teleprompter when he's speaking and in his tweets joe you actually just quoted from <hes> the new york times headline which said initially quote trump urges unity versus racism the new york times took a lot of heat for that headline headline and after some significant outrage on social media the times editors changed to quote a sailing hate but not guns what did you make of last week's headline gate as we called it and why is it important the new york times screwed up their headline bought into the trump's speech and and gave it <hes> what i'll call contextual credibility like he gave this speech and he said these things many times so of course that's what what he meant when in fact he's not said these things and the headline <hes> failed to capture the complexity of the situation and what happened in that room that morning and people were outraged and making the argument of cancel your subscription to the new york times i looked at that and i thought that's the wrong thing to do. I tend to agree with you joe. I my one question and this is one that i saw from. Some of our listeners on twitter is how else can you communicate indicate the message to editors at the new york times that the way that they handle certain stories or even president trump in particular <hes> headlines <hes> is not where it should be that there's room for improvement other than not renewing your subscription or canceling your subscription. Is there another effective way to communicate that message. We now have a way to express our outrage twitter social other social media platforms and i i think it it it forced the new york times to look at their headline and say did we get this right and i give them credit for <hes> making a change and recognizing that they made a mistake we know things about russia's interference with our elections about what's going going on in north korea what's going on in china that we wouldn't know without the new york times and canceling. Your subscription is doing exactly what donald trump rob and the republicans want you to do. They want you to know less. They want you to not believe what you see and read so i think it's absolutely wrong to cancel your subscription. The new york times is businesses lots of ways to send a message but to say i am going to get the new york times out of my life and stopped supporting it through subscription and i think as a little bit crazy and finally joe while all that was going on last week. President trump escalated his trade war with china the u._s. Treasury officially declared china a currency manipulator the first time it has done so since nineteen ninety four aside from the trade wars being easy to win. What did you make of trump's escalation of the trade war with china to state the obvious trade wars are not easy to win trade wars generally the <hes>. It's just agrees of how much you lose at least in american history. We've had disastrous trade wars <hes> going back over the last one hundred fifty years. I can't think of a trade war <hes> where we didn't suffer. It is just terrible economic policy. This is a really interesting case will this. We brought on ourselves. We started the trade war <hes> and now we've got to figure out a way to make sure that the u. s. china trade relationship does not deteriorate into a worldwide contagion that will lead to worldwide recession or even depression. <hes> larry summers immerse one of the best economic thinkers of our generation <hes> wrote last week that we are now heading towards a worldwide economic crisis because of the u._s. china china a trade war that trump started and he made the point that trump has started something that he has no concept of how to get himself out of so in doubling down around this week. He's made the likelihood of a worldwide economic crisis more likely. I'm not an economist but i do know politics six and i think if we look forward a year i think it's very likely this is going to be the number one or number a two issue in the campaign that the economy is slowing that people were paying higher prices and that the cause of all of this was donald trump you know <hes> donald trump's at forty one percent approval rating commission what his approval rating will be when the economy isn't strong so <hes> and people are feeling even more pain than they feel now so i think this is perhaps the issue that republicans wanted to run on today a year from now. I have a feeling we're going to be in a different place. We'll certainly come back a year from now and <hes> issue a report card on that projection action but i have a feeling you are probably right. I think that's all we've got for you this week joe. Thanks for joining us until next week. Thanks katie thank you for listening to words matter for more information on our show and hosts visit words matter media dot com please. He's rate and review words matter on apple podcasts and other podcast providers.

donald trump president analyst america white house joe lockhart the new york times united states congress obama republican party el paso china columbine high school virginia darrelle johnson katie barlow
The Revenge of Rural America

It Could Happen Here

43:48 min | 1 year ago

The Revenge of Rural America

"This is the zodiac speaking. I am the motor of the taxi driver over by Washington street and maple street last night to prove this. Here's a bloodstained piece of his shirt, the thing that makes it interesting is this guy was the ethical you could be anybody. He could be your on Bill could be the guy living next door. Whatever I think we're fifty years. I do it's time to solve the case the entire season of monster. The zodiac killer is available now. Listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. We don't usually think of the American right wing as protesters or activists conservatives tend to be older for one thing. And they also tend to be on the side of state power the site of law and order, liberals and leftists are more likely to agitate for major changes in the status quo. But right wing activism is unheard of. Either. In recent experience has made it clear that when the right stands up. They can make a serious impact. The two thousand fourteen Bundy standoff made national news with started as a confrontation over cliven Bundy refusal to pay grazing fees to the bureau of land management turned into a minor right wing uprising against state control, hundreds of militiamen from all over the country clad in body armor and packing military grade weaponry stood against federal law enforcement agents and made them back down the militiamen got their way, more or less, and they got their way. Again, two years later when cliven Bundy Suns led a group that occupied the malheur wildlife refuge in Oregon. I was actually near the malheur refuge for a little. Of that not at the refuge itself. But in the town of burns, Oregon talking to locals about what it was like to live through the armed insurrection of a far, right militia, people told me stories and militiamen roaring through town in pick-up trucks, carrying guns into local businesses and terrifying residents the way they describe these men reminded me more than a little of how citizens of Constantinescu a city in eastern Ukraine described the Russian backed separatists who briefly occupied their city. Some of these men were literal Russian soldiers, of course, but others were foreigners and local partisans people with no military training, but a love of guns and feeling powerful. Now in both Bundy, occupations, the specific justification for what they were doing was not something with a lot of broad appeal. Their grievances were niche in rural most people who didn't live near malheur viewed the entire thing as something of a silly farce. The occupiers were mailed dick shaped candies and care packages and mocked as y'all Kedah. It is a great nickname. But I don't think most Americans really realize how fucking terrifying a true. Y'all Kedah would be a few thousand sufficiently motivated organized an angry rural Americans have the power to bring this nation to its knees. In the last episode of it could happen here. I envisioned the start of a second American civil war driven by President Trump's refusal to leave office and a series of urban left wing uprisings today. We're going to look at another possibility one that involves the other half of the American political equation today. We're talking about the revenge of rural America exit polls taken in the two thousand sixteen election revealed that a whopping three quarters of Americans felt the country was growing more divided ground zero for this divide was the split between rural and urban voters. One way to look at Donald Trump's upset victory is revenge of rural America rural areas across the country. Saw an unprecedented turnout and those Americans voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump Representative Tom Cole Republican from Oklahoma said this at the time, we've got some big 'schisms out there rural America's much more. Republican than ever before in the two thousand eighteen midterm elections. The urban rural divide in America was even more pronounced only twenty nine percent of democratic voters. Lived in rural areas the remainder being suburban or urban for comparison. A whopping forty six percent of Republican voters live in rural areas. Only nineteen percent live in cities urban and rural America see each other as increasingly two different nations. The one strong commonality between them is that they both believe the other chunk of America hates them. A two thousand eighteen pew survey revealed that majorities of both urban and rural America believed the rest of the country, quote looks down on them. Here's the New York Times. Quote, Pugh has never asked this question before in a way that allows us to tell if the sentiment is becoming more common. But election results showed that urban and rural Americans are increasingly at odds with each other. The new survey confirms both believe the other group doesn't understand their problems or share their values and political scientists warned that place based resentments no-one respects. Rural America or Trump is at war with cities can be easily exploited by politicians. Cathy, Kramer, the university of Wisconsin political scientists who helped Pugh compile. This report believes this divide has gotten worse since the two thousand sixteen election, and that it represents something new in dangerous in American politics. Quote, we're at a political moment where cultural divides overlap with political divides which overlap with geography. Now, I find that pew study interesting for a lot of reasons, but the most concerning thing to me is that it shows this divide between rural and urban America has not always been as bad as it is today. Here's the times again, quote, registered voters in urban areas have become more likely to identify as Democrats or leaning democratic the opposite trend has been more. Pronounced among rural residents with a notable shift after two thousand eight before then rural voters were relatively evenly divided between the two parties, you may not find this divide as frightening as I do. But I think it precedes something potentially quite terrible in addition to trending further. Right. Every year the rural United States kind to seems to be falling. The fuck apart. Cattle rustling is on the rise again across the southwest in states, like Oklahoma, Texas and California. It's reached levels not seen since literal. Cowboy days now modern wrestling is usually driven by sky high rates of drug abuse. In other words, people are stealing cows to buy painkillers and meth. Agricultural theft of all kinds is actually on the rise across the rural US entire semi trucks with nuts and oranges or regularly hijacked via complex schemes that often. Involve fake trucking companies rural America is also growing more violent for most of American history. Living out in the middle of nowhere was the safer decision since cities tended to have much higher crime rates but last year for the first time in a decade, violent crime rates in rural areas rose above the national average, America's suicide rate also increased by more than twenty percent from two thousand one to two thousand fifteen most of that increase happened out in the country, the increases in violent crime and suicide are both due at least in part to the fact that gun ownership is vastly higher out in the country. Forty six percent of rural Americans own a firearm compared to nineteen percent of city dwellers and twenty eight percent of suburban Americans three quarters of rural Americans own more than one firearm and forty eight percent of gun owning rural Americans used their fire. Harm to hunt. So these people have practical experience using a gun out in the world to hit live moving targets. Now, stick all this together. And what do you have it? Sure looks like you have all the ingredients you'd need if you wanted to cook up one ask kicker of an insurgency in if the second American civil war kicks off in rural areas, I can almost guarantee you it will start with a massive new push for national gun control. Kamala Harris, easily one of the primary front running democratic candidates in the current bevy of candidates in twenty twenty is outspoken about her desire to ban all semiautomatic firearms. This would ban the vast majority of America's civilian owned guns literally making tens of millions of people into criminals overnight. The only weapons left legal would be revolvers, shotguns, and bolt action hunting rifles, which are ironically, the very weapons outside of bolt action weapons most likely to be used in violent crime in the immediate wake of President Trump's decision to Claire a state of emergency over the border conservative. Trumpers like Rick Wilson took to Twitter to warn not that Trump might seize power that setting this precedent would inevitably lead to Democrats declaring a state of emergency of their own over gun violence. Once they were back in the Oval Office on January eighth during the CNN appearance. Parkland shooting survivor, David Hogg said this quote, if we really want to start talking about the national emergency like the president likes to talk about forty thousand Americans dying annually from gun violence is a pretty damn good one to start with. Last year. The Atlantic published an article by Elizabeth quitting evaluating the extent of the president's emergency powers in February two thousand nineteen Pacific. Standard magazine applied that to the possibility of national emergency over guns, quote, the legal infrastructure to Levy an emergency declaration, Gordon writes exists, thanks to the presidential emergency action. Documents developed by the Eisenhower administration designed to address such extralegal actions as declarations of martial law and the suppression of habeas corpus these documents could potentially extend to encompass outright firearms confiscations, given the scope of a national crisis now back during Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans police department ordered evacuating citizens to hand over their firearms to the police superintendent Edwin p compass the third later declared a blanket confiscation of all firearms in the city, saying only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons at the time. A federal court issued a restraining order to stop the weapons confiscation. So they did not go through all the way but weapons were confiscated. And of course, that was a very different time with a Republican president and a few hundred fewer mass shootings in recent memory. President Harris's semiautomatic weapons ban would have to be followed by mass confiscation. Tens of millions of gun owners will not hand over their weapons willingly. There are literally more privately owned firearms than people in the United States and half of those guns are owned by just three percent of gun owners. I'm going to give you one guess as to which part of the country. Most of those gun owners live earlier this year, Washington state passed a new set of gun control regulations. The restrictions are fairly mild compared to Kamala Harris is proposition in the new law is popular with the states liberal majority. Fifty nine percent of Washingtonian supported it. But most of those people most of those supporters live in urban areas like Seattle in conservative rural and suburban Washington people are pissed sixteen sheriffs have so far declared that they will not enforce the new law. Here's the Wall Street Journal quote. Sheriff Tom Jones of grant county. Also in eastern Washington is one of a number of sheriffs who have said that they would wait for the courts to rule before telling the deputies to enforce the new law. I swore an oath to defend our citizens and their constitutionally protected rights said Mr. Jones whose county voted against the gun control measure by more than two to one. I do not believe the popular vote over rules that. Now, there are hundreds of thousands of heavily armed Americans right now who see armed resistance to the state is something aspirational as a dream most of these guys, and they are mostly guys don't have any real combat training. A lot of them are probably just lar- ping playacting. But the Bundy standoff was proof that even Laras with a shitload of AR fifteen can scare the federal government in the face of a major gun ban. How many rural communities, and how many states would say fuck you to a democratic president the yellow vest movement kicked off as a suburban and rural movement in France a revolt from the more conservative sections of that country society against a liberal president and his policies. I'm going to quote from the New York Times here, the movement originated in may when a woman in Priscilla lit up scape, who has an internet cosmetics, business and lives in the suburbs. Southeast of Paris launched an internet petition calling for a drop in gas prices. She broke down the price into its components, noting the taxes made up more than half the cost in France per liter lead-free gas was one point four one euros on Sunday or about six. Per gallon. The petition went mostly unnoticed until October. When Eric druid a truck driver from the same area as mislead OSI ran across it and circulated it. Among his Facebook friends. Newspapers began writing out the petition in the number of signatures skyrocketed from an initial seven hundred to two hundred thousand now the yellow vest movement in France is not a purely conservative thing within France itself. It's actually much more divided than that. But I think it provides a good look at how inactive is movement can launch amongst older and more conservative segments of a modern society. I also think rising gas prices could very well be another generator of rural rage here in America people who live in the country spend more on gas because they have to drive further distances. There is a good chance that any green new deal style plan to slow global warming introduced by a democratic administration would include a gas tax rural areas, grow our food in a very real way that keep the city's alive and the people who live in those places. No, it just to say air traffic controllers in stewardesses had the power to. The government shutdown by threatening air travel. Rural Americans have something they too can hold captive in their case. It's the food supply. This would of course require a great deal of organization list of demands and political figureheads to speak for the movement to lend it a shape and a sense of purpose. And I can guarantee you that Joey Gibson the founder of patriot prayer would at least try to be one of them. Joey is one of the leading figures in the right wing activist movement that's arisen since the two thousand sixteen election along with the proud, boys. Joey and patriot prayer have spent the last two years brawling against antifa with fists and flagpoles, but they have also held numerous armed marches and full body armor carrying rifles Gibson lives in Vancouver, Washington. Most members of his gang come from either suburban or rural areas around Portland, Oregon, if you watch hours and hours of their footage marches and video rants like I have you'll regularly. Hear these people describe their constant bloody rallies in Portland as something of a crusade Christian. Holy warriors. Descending into a decadent left-wing city to purge of sin in the last episode. I played several clips of Alex Jones calling for a new civil war against the left. Joey Gibson just happens to be a regular guest on Infowars last. Member he joined the show to talk about Washington's new gun control laws. It's out of control. And I've seen the videos on your site. You should plugs. No place. People can find these. We're gonna put some of these ten full wars dot com. You're getting crowds of hundreds and hundreds of people in small towns counties coming out, and they are really pissed about this. They're really upset. We had almost three hundred people and county with ten thousand people in it. And they're extremely concerned a really upset. They're sick and tired of Seattle telling them what they can or cannot do the people just they just want to be free. They want to be left alone. And so I think this is the key in states like Washington and Oregon the keys to go around to all the counties that believe in the constitution, which is about ninety percent of the counties in Washington state, our conservative now, I've met Joey he's not a brilliant man or a likely pick for a right wing revolutionary warlord. He would try, but for my money, a likelier pick for rural insurrectionist warlord would be someone like Ryan Bundy you've seen Ryan on the news a few times, especially if you kept up with the Bundy standoff back in two thousand fourteen he's one of the sons of cliven Bundy the old racist rancher who masterminded that standoff with the bureau of land management in bunkerville, Nevada. Ryan is the one with the facial deformity? This has led a lot of people online to treat him as if he is a big dummy dummy because big. Guitry knows no political bounds. But Ryan Bundy is not dumb. He was probably the driving force behind the two thousand sixteen occupation of the malheur wildlife refuge, Ryan spent months jail over that. But he defended himself against the court and won some of this was due to the serious mistakes made by the prosecution, but a lot of it came down to Ryan's, personal charisma. His ability to sway a jury of his peers to believe in the righteousness of his 'cause right now Ryan is running for governor of Nevada. He's probably a long shot candidate. But it doesn't really matter. Dozens upon dozens of heavily armed men and women were willing to gather and put their lives on the line for his family twice. There is a weird religious crusade angle to what the bundy's have been doing based on a fringe Mormon prophesy, the fantastic podcast Bundy Ville, which I heartily recommend goes into more detail on this. But the short of it is they believed that they've been chosen by God to defend the constitution, or at least, they're interpret. Station of the constitution. This is the kind of nut bar stuff that I think a lot of liberals are prone to laugh about I don't find anything funny about the bundy's to people have already been radicalized into killing by their rhetoric in June of two thousand fourteen Jared and Amanda Miller fresh from taking part in the standoff at Bundy ranch drove into Las Vegas and walked into a cici's pizza with a small arsenal. They opened fire on two officers sitting in eating lunch killing both as they started shooting the couple allegedly yelled. This is the start of a revolution. One dead. Officer was covered in Gadsden flag. Another was covered in the Nazi flag. Jared and Amanda killed one more person a random bystander before dying in a gunfight with police now, the millers had a lot of other radicalizing factors behind the rampage than just the Bundy standoff, but it wasn't important step in their journey. The voice finicky is probably a better example of a man who died explicitly for the bundy's. He was shot. Reaching for a gun after being stopped with Ryan and his brother Aiman during the her occupation in June of two thousand sixteen William Keebler, a Utah militia leader in close adherent of the bundy's was arrested and charged for trying to detonate homemade bombs at a Beal am building in Arizona. So that's three distinct cases and four individual people who have been radicalized into violent deadly action by the rhetoric and beliefs of the Bundy clan in a situation where order starts to break down even more in rural America and extremist groups begin to tear at the fabric of our society. You can bet the bundy's will not just sit back and watch. So far, the Bundy family have mostly agitated around land rights, and what they depict as the struggle of American ranchers against a tarantula government. But they and their supporters are also huge backers of the second amendment if they were to organize even violently in defense of the right to bear arms. I think you would see them receive a lot of support from even mainstream console. -servative? Tucker Carlson is one of the most popular conservatives in modern America. Here's a clip from a December fourth two thousand seventeen episode of his show during an interview with a gun control advocate. The fact is we need to have guns, and we need to talk about banning entire classes of especially dangerous firearms like assault weapons. And I think we have to talk about not just banning them. But requiring the people allow the government to buy them back. Universal gun confiscations which are talking about universal confiscation. You're sitting a class of firearms would be any rifle with a capacity of more than one above a certain caliber. I mean, I don't know what the criteria are that you're suggesting, but basically any gun they would use for deer hunting would be banned. I would make a distinction between long guns. That are technically say my automatic the kind like my dad uses hunt and semiautomatic assault weapons that you have to go donors one hundred major meaningless distinctions, but let's get to the meat of it. What do you do to people who own sell them back? I think you think you at a bare minimum sort of find them severely for it and build an incentive for them to any for the civil war that would and take people's guns. I'm serious now. I can't think of any Americans I personally despise more than Tucker Carlson. But I don't think he's wrong about that. And if large chunks of rule America declared their resistance to the federal government, the state would not have a lot of options for stopping them both rural and urban America have seen declines. And the number of police officers in recent years, but the rural parts of this country are the only place where that drop in cops has led to a surge in crime, so rural Americans who grow most of our food feel increasingly isolated from the majority of the United States. They are already dealing with a significant breakdown of civil order, and oh, yeah. They just happen to have most of America's three hundred something million privately owned firearms. Will either? Hi, this is Ron burgundy from the Ron burgundy podcast, and I'm recording this brand new promo because apparently the old promos are now suffering from listener fatigue. So I'm recording. This new one to ask you to listen to the Ron burgundy podcast. And I'm so sorry. You the listener that you've become fatigued by the previous promo. So here's a brand new one a right there. How do you like it? Yeah. Listen to the podcast. Thank you. I hope at this point I've established how very possible a rural revolt is now let's take a look at how it might actually happen. Head north from San Francisco on the I five and before long the verdant green of the bay will give away to rolling yellow hills creeping higher and higher until they become mountains by the time. You hit Redding California about three hours north from Silicon Valley, you'll be in a place that does not feel like California, or at least not the California that most of the world knows reading is not a progressive hippie town like so many small cities in northern California. It's filled with gun stores, gigantic trucks, bible, schools and churches as you near reading you start to see strange signs flags that bear a yellow circle with two Xs incited on a green background. This is the flag of the state of Jefferson. The double Xs stand for the fact that most rule Californians believe they have been double crossed by the big cities where most Californians reside the state of Jefferson movement wants to seed from California. So they can pay fewer taxes particularly on gasoline, which California taxes at a higher rate than any other state Jeffersonians or wanna be Jeffersonians. However, you prefer to identify. Them also advocate for looser gun laws. More in line with so-called free states like Texas. You see a lot of Trump flags in this part of California, or at least more than you see in other parts of the state most Californians if they've even heard of the state of Jefferson Buick is a big joke. The movement has existed for decades now without ever managing to move forward on their dreams of secession, but I can say with confidence that for many people in rural nor Cal the state of Jefferson is anything but a joke from two thousand and thirteen to two thousand sixteen I spent increasing chunks of time in rural inland, California, mostly in the tiny mountain communities in and around reading you probably haven't heard of any of the towns I lived in. They are not tourist destinations. They have names like red bluff Weaverville Dunn's MIR and shingle town the place I spent most of my time was Manton a small community tucked deep in the middle of nowhere. Most residents in men either grew weed or cooked meth some did both. There are two roads into Manton one long and lonesome road from red bluff and. Hairpin mountain road in from shingle town in all the months, I spent their over three years. I did not see a single police car Manton is not entirely free from the long arm of the law. But most of what transpires there is well outside of its grasp. That fact does not make Manton an oddity in rural California in two thousand eighteen McClatchy a media company based in Sacramento investigated, the number of law enforcement officers in rural California, here's how the Sacramento bee summarized things quote departments in multiple jurisdictions are operating with skeleton stabs McClatchy found pushing response times in two hours or sometimes leaving residents without a response at all in trinity county, deputies regularly cover hundreds of miles of territory alone. When law enforcement does arrive in many outlying places, it's often a single officer cut off from backup and in some cases communication with his or her department. We have no money, we have no people said mohawk county sheriff Mike Poindexter echoing more than a dozen rural California sheriff's we don't have near enough people. We just don't. Now, McClatchy interviewed officers and citizens and reviewed crime statistics for twenty five rural Californian counties. These places accounted for forty one percent of the state's landmass but just four percent of its population. Mcclatchy found that from two thousand eight to two thousand seventeen the number of rural deputies in these areas dropped from seventeen hundred fifty eight to sixteen hundred ten this means roughly sixteen hundred men and women are responsible for maintaining order in nearly half of America's third largest state right now, the state of Jefferson is only in favor of seceding from California. They want to be the United States is fifty first state. But if you listen to how these people talk, the amount of anger, they have for urban Californians, you might conclude that they could be convinced to take more extreme action. I found an L A times article about the state of Jefferson, the journalists who wrote it went to a meeting some of these people help and quoted the speech of a prominent state of Jefferson advocate. Mark baird. A rancher in siskiyou county. Mark told his fellow rural Californians, you're the one. Being exterminated by a lack of liberty. Now that language the word exterminated. That's how you prime people for violence, and there is enough truth behind his words to make them stick rural Californians are just as poor as rural Texans, but they're also burdened by California's much higher taxes. A gas tax makes Cincinnati may. In fact, it's necessary to keep the air breathable. But if you live in Shasta county, and you need a big truck to do the kind of work people do out in the sticks. And you've got to drive eighty miles a day paying California gas prices, well, twelve extra cents per gallon is a real hardship. And by the way, these people love Donald Trump, the president currently enjoys a sixty one percent approval rating in rural America, if Trump is voted out or impeached. It would not take much to get millions of people to believe this was part of some deep state conspiracy to steal liberty and also guns that exact fear is literally what caused the birth of the American militia movement back in the late nineteen eighties. Now, if the time they call it the new world order, but the basic idea is. That a socialist government was coming to take their guns. That's why all these militias started people like Timothy McVeigh have killed over this stuff before. So if rural America decides to revolt what would that look like how could four percent of a state effectively fight back against the ninety six percent who live in cities. It is impossible to overstate the importance of the Golden State to the rest of America, not because of Silicon Valley or Hollywood, but because California feeds this country. It leads the state in cash receipts for crops forty seven billion dollars a year in much more at this point the nearest state behind an Iowa is only twenty seven billion in receipts, Texas, only generates twenty three and a half billion California's cash receipts for agriculture were more than Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico combined. The state leads the nation in sixty six crucial crops in grows. More than ninety percent of the nation's almonds are. Chokes dates figs, raisins, Kiwis, all lives, peaches, pistachios, prunes, pomegranates, sweet rice and walnuts. The bulk of California's food including nearly all its beef comes from the densely farmed central valley. But seventy five percent of California's water comes from the watersheds north of Sacramento, which means the so-called state of Jefferson. We're at to organize itself. Revolt could cut off access to the water that makes California's agriculture possible. Eighty percent of California's water demand is in the southern two-thirds of the state. Right now, it's still seems like a long shot, but in the wake of a massive sweep in gun ban. And remember most economists say were right around the corner from another massive economic crash. I brought up the occupy movement last episode two and how a similar movement might cause a right wing crack down that sparks a civil war. I can see that same sort of activist movement providing an opportunity for a far right rule insurgent movement after all occupy rose up itself after the election of a democratic president in an economic collapse. Kamala Harris, Joe Biden and Baidoa Rourke three of the most prominent potential democratic candidates and twenty twenty are all very unpopular among the far left. So imagine this assault weapons ban is enacted while the economy is in the shitter in cities across the US are convulsed with protests in occupations, even if these ocupation protests avoid the rioting theorized about last episode. It would still take a massive toll on law enforcement. And that would look a lot like opportunity to rural separatists who are sick and tired of city folk telling them, what to do all the water that grows. California's crops is pumped south. It doesn't just slide down. There naturally. Pumps can be blown up the crops grown in the central valley are all transported by trucks travelling on highways. Few. I could cripple transit for days in just so happens that rule America is a Washington ingredient. You would need to make a really great e AD ten right is a bipartite explosive compound. It is safe to handle not explosive until mixed and even then only explosive when used with a detonator or shot with a rifle botanic can be converted into something. Much more dangerous with ease. David ca colon. The counterinsurgency expert in former State Department strategist told me this. I am astounded. You can buy Tanna right online. Ten right is basically Aminul World War Two bombs were filled with the stuff that is essentially the same thing set up by impact or a small TNT charge. I see no legitimate purpose to ten right? If you took the ammonium nitrate compound, you would then have a substance called anthro, the classic IRA explosive. Now, Colin told me that anyone in a farming community has access to the chemicals you would need to turn tannery into an fo. And that quote, it's very safe to use and transport as an insurgent. So for full disclosure. I myself have used handwrite dozens of times over the years, and I love it. Normally, you only set up like a half pound charge, and you should it with a rifle from a distance and blows up, and it's fun. I can remember one time my friends, and I said a four pound charge one time and only one time because it left a fucking crater in rained dirt down on our heads from two hundred feet away. A lot of Americans own tannery, not just in California. When I lived in Texas, I had twenty pounds at a time delivered to my door. Tanta right gets its name from its inventor a guy named David Tanner, Mr. Tanner, lives in Oregon, and that's where most right is made residents of the so-called state of Jefferson when only after drive a couple of hours to buy it straight from the source, so say a rural insurgency starts and say this insurgency strikes. Southern California's water supply, maybe going after the pumps in the tax choppy mountains that carry it south or maybe they focus on bombing highways. Shutting down transit on the roads of America's most populous state a few hundred committed insurgents with a good plan in decent organization. Could do a tremendous amount of damage this way law enforcement already wildly undermanned in rural California would need to bring in help from the cities. And if those cities are convulsed with big ass, occupy style protests. Well, at some point the government would have to troops to secure the nations food supply. This would be terrifying. Precedent for a number of reasons for one thing. Most US soldiers come from rural areas in California is one of the major recruiting grounds for the United States military. The DOD. Would have to take great care to ensure soldiers weren't being sent to pacify unrest being generated by their own friends and family members that might lead to the same sort of situation. We see in Afghanistan with constant insider attacks and desertions were soldiers take their experience and their weapons and Milton to the deep woods with their comrades. Their new comrades. This rural insurgency would not stay confined to California, very long terrorist tactics. Have a nasty tendency to spread violently a series of truck bombings in rural northern California could lead rather quickly to similar attacks all around the nation, not just bombings, but hijackings in many cases, these thefts might rely on truck drivers themselves allowing loads to be hosted in exchange for a cut up the money. Black market sales of food would provide more funding for the insurgency, even as food prices started to rise in the cities, perhaps the state and the federal government could get shit together. Quickly enough to restore the flow of water to southern California in a timely manner. Even so a month or two even a few weeks without sufficient water would be crippling to those farmers in their crops. Even a short lived in very localized. Urgency would cause a massive spike and food prices now food prices are traditionally the single biggest predictor of civil conflict, Twitter and Facebook get a lot of credit for the spring of two thousand eleven but that series of revolutions uprisings in civil wars was sparked in large part by the price of grain. I'd like to read a couple of quotes from a wonderful guardian article titled use your loaf by food prices were crucial to the spring. When grain prices spiked in two thousand seven to two thousand eight Egypt's bread prices rose thirty seven percent with unemployment rising as well. More people dependent on subsidised bread. But the government did not make any more available Egypt's annual food price inflation continued and it had eighteen point nine percent before the fall of President Mubarak the first protests of the herbs spring in Tunisia in December two thousand ten where quickly dismissed as another bout of bread riots. But of course, those protests led to the overthrow of the Tunisian dictator. This is not just a Middle Eastern thing. Food prices of the number one predictor of unrest worldwide if rural America decided to go to war, they have a number of very convenient choke points. They could use. To attack their urban enemies. Many of these insurgents would consider it revenge for decades of mockery neglected environmental policies that burden them far more than his fair. These resentments exist right now all take a few hundred people in a geographically discrete part of the country like northern California to turn this anger into action. So it should this point be easy to imagine rising food prices in the midst of a recession escalating, the number in violence of these protests that were already seen in cities across the nation. Desperation causes the government to approve more and more violent tactics to deal with the insurgents, which inspires more rural anger and probably causes more attacks. We watched this happened before in numerous countries, the bombing of trucks and highways to cut off food is a tactic that could work in almost every part of the United States. Only four percent of the food consumed by Americans is locally produced more than seventy percent of the food that gets to our cities does. So the trucks we are incredibly vulnerable to attacks on our highways in this country is filled with people who have the means and motivation to apply the sort of violence in. In November two thousand eighteen over the space of about a week two major busts by US law enforcement officers led to the arrests more than eighty Neo Nazis and white supremacists. There are members of gangs with names, like the unforgiven and the area and brotherhood. Thirty nine of the arrested were members of Neo Nazi gang from rural Florida. These Nazis were found with meth fennel more than one hundred firearms several pipebombs and one rocket launcher in a more violent and less settled America. Those men and women could have formed the nexus of a deadly regional insurgency and trust me. There are thousands of people like them all around the country who have not yet been busted hell that same week police in Green Bay Wisconsin responding to a domestic disturbance, call found a man with swastika tattoos and an underground bomb laboratory when I start talking about the state of Jefferson turning into a violent insurgency when I talk about rednecks bombing water pump stations and hijacking trucks. It probably sounds far fetched. But the kind of people who want that future who are just itching for the chance to go Taliban on all. Our asses those people exist right now, they aren't the majority of rural America, or if conservatives, but they don't need to be a few thousand violent extremists spread out across a few dozen states could do damage wildly out of proportion to their numbers. Either. If you're going to build something from nothing, you've got to know what really works. I took a thousand dollar loan built a five billion dollar business. And now, I make smart investments new businesses on shark tank. I'm Barbara Corcoran. Now. I'm sharing my secrets on my podcast called business unusual. You might think that looking at someone's resume and asking them a lot of questions are the key to finding the right person for a position you dead wrong. Follow business unusual on iheartradio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. I find myself drawn back regularly to the notes I took in my interview with David Kilcullen, one of the world's great counterinsurgency experts. We were talking about the best way to cripple this country. And he said this quote, you don't try to generate a mass movement. You don't try to get the state to crack down on you. Instead, you try to generate a sectarian civil war. So intense that it makes the society ungovernable, and that's the goal for any true Revolutionary Movement writer left make America ungovernable, if you've been paying attention to your Nazi news. You may have heard about the terrorist group atom Waffen with five deaths and counting to their name. They have the highest body count of any Neo Nazi organization of the post two thousand sixteen era while the group has been hobbled recently by some inside drama over satanism. They have active members in several US states as well as Germany these cells are usually three to four members with no communication between individual groups. Here said, the German magazine Der Spiegel described them. Members are heavily armed and prepared to make use of their weapons. Indeed, they are getting ready for what they see as the coming race war in so-called. Hate camps weapons training is conducted by members of the US military. Who are also among the group's members. According to one former member of the atom Waffen division newcomers must submit to waterboarding. In addition to other such trials now propublica working with the fantastic conflict journalist, Jay Hanrahan interviewed a former member of atom often, I'm going to play clip from that here. A lot of things that they talk about other members. Of course, could keep keep everyone from falling down as talked about siege. Hit and run. Evacuation there. Stop. Let everyone panic. We've been no point to March around the streets like a week fucking pussy with white polos and khakis and Tiki torches. Screaming white lives matter. Don't care about politicians. Don't care about politics. Wanting. Everyone to stop being slaves to the system that we're living in living under when he mentioned siege. That's a reference to a white supremacist newsletter in book authored by a guy named James Mason. Mr. Mason is a founding father of American Nazism, and the guy who coined the term leaderless resistance. He and his comrades have been urging exactly the kind of war I've outlined here for more than forty years. I write this few months after the birth of yet. Another new white supremacist terror group in the United States, these people called themselves the base their name is literally the English translation of al-qaeda who they consider to be an inspiration there, mostly based in the Pacific northwest. They to focus on weapons training and small group preparation in order to carry out insurgent attacks against the US government that former atom often guy interviewed by Republican mentioned wanting to destroy the system he was expressing a desire to do. Exactly what David Colin was talking about render the country ungovernable these people the Neo, Nazis and militiamen and white supremacists. They all know. Exactly what they plan to do if civil conflict erupts across the country. What will you do statistically? You'll probably be in a city watching food prices rise and seeing protest after protest convulsed you're downtown. There will be runs on grocery stores. Maybe even mass looting food if things get bad enough outside of the city roads will be closed checkpoints with soldiers and heavily-armed cops will start to appear on the interstate. The great American highway system will become militarized as the state scrambles to pin down the insurgency. If you do live out in the country or in a particularly conservative suburb. You will have the additional complexity of needing to live with insurgents the first few months of this will be particularly difficult. It takes time to deploy the national guard of the army millions of rural Americans might spend weeks or months without any realistic access to law enforcement or emergency services. Imagine a knock at the door one night an armed insurgent asking for food or shelter. What do you do in might be weeks before the police come back or the army arrives? And even when they do they won't be at every house every day. They may not even be able to hold onto the area. So maybe you find yourself aiding and abetting these revolutionaries. Even if you consider them terrorists for a lot of people that will feel like the safest decision so far on this podcast. I focused on just how the civil war might break out in past a certain point. It doesn't really matter whether the fighting starts from a left wing or right wing movement. Just as a rule secessionist movement would take on rest in the cities as an opportunity radical leftist would find an ungovernable America to have just as much potential for their ideals. Most of you listening probably wouldn't pick a side right away. It wouldn't even look like there were sides for a while there'd be protests in cities. Of course activists with. Lists of demands maybe demands, you agree with maybe not and there'd be insurgents terrorists out in the country with their own demands. Strangling your city in the rest of urban America as the government failed to restore order and normalcy. A lot of people would find themselves seriously questioning the government's legitimacy probably for the first time. We've never really had cost to do that on a mass level in modern America. Whatever else has happened. The state has. Always managed to keep the highways. Open the food flowing when that's no longer the case a lot more people will find themselves picking sides for some of us that will mean backing a protest movement demanding radical change for others. It will mean supporting the government, maybe because we just want the rest to be over and for a growing number of Americans. It will mean deciding they don't want to be Americans anymore. The government would not call it a civil war not right away. But we'd no. Now, so far we've just talked about how the fighting would start for my money. I think the most likely beginning would involve a mix of the things we've talked about in both of these first two episodes city centres occupied by activists with demands fighting the police and national guard. Well, rule insurgents carry out their own attacks and make their own demands. Every attack from every side accelerates the whole process and pushes the whole country. Closer to chaos now. The state would not take all of this sitting down. Of course, there would be increasingly vigorous attempts to right the ship and to stop the cycle of violence, federal and state governments with throw absolutely everything. They had it curbing the unrest restoring order on the next episode of it could happen here. I'll walk you through just what that would look like. And why systems efforts would be almost certainly doomed to fail. Jinya watched it from phones change. Facebook pictures congratulate ourselves may nervous jokes and west about sex was sending out. And it says always listening one of this on. Joe strums been death to him now. Now. On the one. You give an inch nails stake. Your. We don't we don't even was. We don't. Even. I'm Robert Evans, and I'm just exhausted from reading all of that you can find me on Twitter at I right? Okay. You can find this show on Twitter at happen here pod. And you can find the show online at it could happen here. Pod dot com. Our music as always is from four fists if you're going to build something from nothing you've got to know what really works. I took a thousand dollars loan built a five billion dollar business. And now, I make smart investments new businesses on shark tank. I'm Barbara Corcoran. Now. I'm sharing my secrets on my podcast called business unusual. You might think that looking at someone's resume and asking them a lot of questions are the key to finding the right person for a position, you're dead wrong. Follow business unusual on iheartradio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

America California US Oregon Washington Ryan Bundy President Trump Texas Jefferson president federal government Twitter Facebook Bundy New York Times assault Washington
#19 | Retaillessen met Philip Hillege, oprichter Skins Cosmetics | De RetailTrends Podcast

De RetailTrends Podcast

55:01 min | 2 months ago

#19 | Retaillessen met Philip Hillege, oprichter Skins Cosmetics | De RetailTrends Podcast

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Sources: Dems privately preparing for Senate trial; CNN: Trump's Florida holiday raises concern among WH aides; Facing tough re-election, Sen. Jones talks impeachment vote; Biden: I've tried to focus on Trump, not attacking other Democratic candidates;

The Lead with Jake Tapper

45:46 min | 1 year ago

Sources: Dems privately preparing for Senate trial; CNN: Trump's Florida holiday raises concern among WH aides; Facing tough re-election, Sen. Jones talks impeachment vote; Biden: I've tried to focus on Trump, not attacking other Democratic candidates;

"The Iowa caucuses are mere weeks away at this stage of the race in two thousand and four John Kerry was pulling at four percent four years ago. Jeb Bush was the Republican confront runner. If you're invested in the outcome of the twenty twenty election the only podcast you need. Is the election ride home. You don't have to nervously refresh your browser twelve times a day anymore. The election ride home. has you covered with the latest every day from the campaign trail. Search your podcast APP and subscribe to the election ride home podcast. Don't don't worry it's not too late to send the perfect holiday gift this year. Omaha steaks. Right now podcast. Listeners can still send delicious impressive when one hundred percent guaranteed gifts that everyone will share. Remember and love flavorful tender Omaha steaks so the gift that American families have loved for over one hundred years. Here's your happy friends and family will be excited when it arrives and think of you. Every time they prepare and enjoy their amazing meals with this special podcast. He'll act but now and they'll get four free Omaha. steaks burgers added to their gift that sixteen main courses plus sides dessert for just sixty nine ninety nine go to Omaha steaks dot com and type the lead in the search bar today impeachment has reached an impasse. The lead starts right right now. President trump wants a trial right away but speaker Pelosi wants to make sure it's fair. Who will blink in the standoff over the Senate impeachment trial piling? Highly on Mayor Pete. Democrats clash over a wine cave in the last debate of the year. What has the candidates seeing red as they approached the Iowa caucuses plus a sitting republican state rep accused of domestic terrorism by taking part in armed conflicts? There was a time when that kind of thing would enter political career but these these are not normal. Welcome to the lead. I'm Briana Keeler Jake Tapper and we begin with the politics lead you. You'd think it would be a great gift for President Trump Speaker Pelosi holding onto the articles of impeachment instead of sending them over to the Senate to begin the formal impeachment trial but the president is looking for total exoneration as CNN Sara Murray reports Speaker Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell now at stalemate as Congress goes on a holiday holiday break president. Trump's impeachment trial maybe officially stole but behind the scenes house. Democrats are getting ready staff for the the key. House committees are expected to work over the holiday recess consulting with Democratic leadership prepping for a trial as early as the week of January six. But that depends on house speaker speaker. Nancy Pelosi who says she won't send the articles of impeachment to the Senate until parameters for a Senate trial are set when they wrote the constitution. They suspected that it could be a real president. I don't think they suspected that we could have a road. President and a rogue leader in the Senate at the same time in the Senate majority leader. Mitch McConnell this afternoon arranged for White House staff to get a lay of the land in the chamber after failing to cut a deal Thursday with minority leader Chuck Schumer on the rules for a trial. We we remain at an impasse. McConnell argued rules from previous impeachments should suffice to believe that the unanimous bipartisan precedent. That was good enough for Oh President Clinton ought to be good enough for president. Trump fair is fair plus Schumer push for an agreement to include testimony from witnesses such as former national security adviser John Bolton and Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney leader McConnell is plotting the most rush lease thorough and most just unfair impeachment trial in modern history the standoff means lawmakers are leaving Washington with the status of an impeachment trial in limbo until the new year. Aw But if Pelosi's power play was meant to unnerve McConnell he insists it's backfiring other house. Democrats seem to be suggesting. They'd prefer never transmit the articles now despite the acrimony between the two parties today Nancy Pelosi extended an invitation to President trump to deliver the state eight of the Union before a joint session of Congress on February fourth. The President Briana has accepted. All right. Sara Murray thank you so much. Let's talk about what Pelosi actually wrote in that invitation and shall we quote in their great wisdom. Our founders crafted a constitution based on a system of separation of powers three coequal branches acting as checks on each other to ensure that balance powers the constitution calls for the president to from time to time. Give the Congress information of the State of the Union I I it just seems it might be too cynical. It seems a little bit like shade to me. Would you say milk tweeting. Some language can't but look the timing of. This could really incredible given that. We don't know the timing of the Senate impeachment trial it could coincide at the same time. That trump delivers his state of the Union address which actually happened in Bill Clinton's impeachment but he didn't talk about Impeachment Bill Clinton. He talked about the economy he talked about y two K and you can imagine this president might take a different approach. If if he's being the same time y two k what blasting takes you back you may sort of realized how long ago that was. What would you expect from that chairman the idea that president trump? I don't think he'd be able to have that kind of discipline to you. I do not. I think that he would not be able to contain himself being in the chamber. Ambridge that impeached Impeach trump. I mean he would be smart if he would talk about some of the successes and there are some things in the economy. Really strong seventy six percent saying that that they they're happy where the economy is going is huge for any political figure going into an election And I I don't know the press if if the president goes is in doesn't try to highlight those things talks about. Impeachment continues to kind of shoot himself in the foot. It's about what's going on with impeachment right now. sung-min Pelosi said. She's not going to hand over these articles of impeachment until she sees that the process on the Senate side is fair so she either House to extract something from Mitch McConnell title. WHO's very savvy as we know speaker Pelosi's savvy? He's very savvy right as I'm not saying one over the other just saying maybe there's a match there right or she. She is to cave in a bit of a boxer. Well it's a puzzling move to say the least. Because if you're you're trying to put leverage over McConnell by withholding something that he does not want to totally fine not having so. I think what Democrats were trying to do here. And you kinda hints of it yesterday. When senator Lindsey Graham went to the White House and spoke with the press spoke with President? Trump privately I think what Democrats had sort of strategize at the outset. was that perhaps hold onto these delay. Delay The trial and delay the acquittal or in the president's view the exoneration that he's so wants from a Senate trial and while the president was out there very kind of almost mocking Nancy Pelosi Democrats for their strategy yesterday. I felt Graham's comments really interesting when he said I just left a meeting with president trump. He is quote mad as hell all they would delay this trial so maybe the strategy will work in that sense. Trump gets angry at McConnell tries to get him to move but for now it. I'm I'm not sure how this strategy will play out at the end. I'm not sure it's Pelosi's benefit just yet but to some degree. It's doing what it's intended to do. It's making him crazy. It's making him tweet tweet even more whereas if that were possible and also I mean look. It is a very serious matter that you have Mitch. McConnell and Lindsey Graham saying they're actually already going to not honor the Oath they're supposed to sign when we start the impeachment process in the Senate. I mean they are supposed to sign an oath to see that they're impartial. They're going to consider all the evidence they both already said. We're not doing that so she is well within her right to say until we can have some assurance so we're going to have something of a fair process. I'm going to hold back and give us some some more allegra leverage and it's such a contrast to how it was in Clinton's impeachment where Trent Lott and Tom Daschle. We're trying to be statesman. They had really tried to make it a more thoughtful process losses in the Senate that it had been in the house. Do you worry though that maybe it makes her and house. Democrats and Democrats in general. Look a little considering. She's been talking. What about being prayerful? And she's been talking about how this is solemn and perhaps this could undercut that a bit because again when you have Mitch McConnell saying I mean he he is supposed to be the leader of this process and he basically already said when I signed that I'm a liar because I'm not even GonNa be impartial. I'm not going to be unbiased. I know what I'm GONNA do. Lindsey Graham has already said I know what I'm going to do and I think that makes them look very petty. The one question I have to though Democrats perhaps may need to explain is that they talked about the issue of time. I mean that was the main reason why they did. Not Litigate the issue of the issues of the subpoenas that were being defined by the administration and the courts they said. The President President appears to be a significant danger ahead of the two thousand twenty elections. That's why we have to move expeditiously on this impeachment process but if you're holding out and Delaying during the trial and delaying kind of that second major part of the impeachment process That's a question that I think. A lot of us have had for the Democratic leadership. It was really interesting and I'm curious what you think chairman about out this Harvard. Law Professor Noah Feldman who wrote quote if the articles are not transmitted trump could legitimately say that. He wasn't truly impeached at all. That's because impeachment human under the Constitution means that sending approved articles to the Senate with House manager standing up in the Senate and saying the president is impeached. And he's an important voice voice because Democrats in the House had him on their hand picked panel of constitutional experts. Who really thought? Trump should be impeached. I'm not buying it. You're not buying you think this is some crazy kind of. That's a stretch for an argument. The president was impeached with the vote in the house. Like it or not the love. The president don't like the president. He was impeached in the house. What I see here is and I think it was going to work against the Democrats because that most of the public? That's out there wondering I don't think that is a cesspool of partisan politics back in Washington DC. If the impeachment looks even more political goal than they think it already has I think cuts against the Democrats and so if Democrats in tight seats. They're going to have to try to explain why they made their vote and all the way by by the way. We're playing this political game on trying to frame the frame the narrative that I want when it goes to the Senate I think this is fraught with political trouble. I think Schumer talked Pelosi into it over. You know over a conversation and now they're trying to dig their way out. I don't think this was well. Thought through half the number up next where president trump is heading that has some of his aides worried plus they've got millions of readers and a message for trump's base. WHY President Trump is attacking attacking a major evangelical Christian magazine fifty unread emails a stressful commute? Let's face it. We we all get overwhelmed. Sometimes do you ever have a great idea or big goal and let it fall by the wayside. You're not alone. Luckily talks online therapy makes it easy to vent manage stress and work towards goals. You've put off. Just take a quick assessment and talk spes will match you with one of over five thousand licensed therapists then you can start messaging your therapist the the very same day a month and talks about as much as one in person therapy session but talks base gives you unlimited access to your therapist. It's the same expertise. He's effectiveness and privacy. You'd expect from in person therapy at any time through talk spaces secure platform bottom line. We could all use therapy. Talks base wants to give more four of us a chance to achieve our goals and feel our best at a price. We can afford match with your perfect therapist at talks base dot com or download the mobile APP. And you'll get one hundred dollars off your first month when you use Promo Code. CNN that's talks based DOT COM Promo code CNN fifty unread emails a stressful commute. Let's face it. We we all get overwhelmed. Sometimes do you ever have a great idea or big goal and let it fall by the wayside. You're not alone. Luckily talks based on line. Therapy makes it easy to vent manage stress and work towards goals. You've put off. Just take a quick assessment and talk spes will match you with one of over five thousand licensed therapists. Then you can start messing your therapist the the very same day a month on talks about as much as one in person therapy session but talks base gives you unlimited access to your therapist. It's the same expertise. He's affective nece and privacy. You'd expect from in person therapy at any time through talks bases secure platform bottom line. We could all use therapy. Talks base wants to give more four of us a chance to achieve our goals and feel our best at a price. We can afford match with your perfect therapist at talks base dot com or download the mobile APP. And you'll get one hundred dollars off your first month when you use Promo Code. CNN that's talks base dot COM PROMO CODE CNN. We're back with the politics lead in a matter of of our president trump will leave Washington for his mar-a-lago resort where Mr Trump often hobnobs with friends and outside allies have tremendous influence over his decision making as C. N. N.'s Kaitlan Collins reports. It's a major point of concern for White House. Aides fresh off impeachment and eager for vindication. President trump is heading to his private Florida club tonight for a two week vacation but his aides are worried. He'll have too much time on his hands as his impeachment. Trial is looming sources. Say the next two weeks will be critical and there are big decisions about his defense strategy to be made leading to concern learn about outside influence on trump as he dines engulfs with old buddies at mar-a-lago that as a new report in the Washington Post sheds light on the outside outside influence. A foreign leader has had on trump former White House officials say they fear. Russian President Vladimir Putin lead trump to believe it was was Ukraine not Russia that interfered in the twenty sixteen election. One ex aide said trump explained the baseless theory by saying quote Putin told. Let me reminding many of this moment when he sided with the Russian leader over his own intelligence agencies President Putin He just said it's not Russia I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be for now. The president is focused on his impeachment trial and demanding to know when and it will be a just left president trump. He's mad as hell that they would do this to him. And now deny him his day in court after trump said it's likely likely his White House counsel will lead his defense team. That's been fantastic. As White House counsel his. Close ally. Senator Lindsey Graham advocated for this Defense Defense Strategy Thursday night. I told him my view was you should treat this like a supreme court argument power. The president pick somebody outside the political arena. It now Brianna. The president is expected to be well staffed during his trip at least during the second half of it. When the White House Counsel Pats at Bologna Jared Kushner the Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and the press secretary among other top aides are all expected to be on property with the president as he's got these pretty crucial decisions nations to make before game time Indeed and we'll be watching Kaelin. Thank you so much Kaitlan Collins there on the North Lawn. Let's talk about the president heading out tomorrow. Law Go for a couple of weeks. AIDS are worried. Should they be yet. What is he going to tweet? Who is he going to be talking to? Who's going to be his ear? Is he going to make any brash. Decisions about this upcoming Senator Al.. There's still a lot of decisions. He hasn't made so especially about his defense team. Is it going to be pats at Bologna. Whose leading it is Mick Mulvaney going to have a hand? He's also trying to bring in some of his allies in the house to come in and shore up his defense so clearly he's thinking about this. He wants the most aggressive defense possible especially because he's probably not going to get the witnesses he want want so there's a lot riding on who. He picks his defense team in Karen. If you put the shoe on the other foot if this were a democratic president doesn't have something to be frustrated about. As is he goes on vacation hanging over him one impeachment. He's in the middle of that and also there's this sort of stall that's happening with the articles of impeachment. Well I can't put the shoe on the other foot because I did work for Bill Clinton in this period and this is part of why the strategy of having an outside strategy where you are talking about the economy and you talking about your accomplishments actually worse because while you might be frustrated you know that you are still making headway on other issues and at this point all trump is really talking. If I talk about the deal got done in. The last couple of weeks always talking about is his frustration and anger over impeachment. So he's the one who's defining that narrative for the next couple of weeks. We know certainly where his mind is. something else that he may or may not be choosing to deal with. Is that late today. We learned that twenty-five Jewish members of Congress are calling for trump adviser. Stephen Miller Miller to be fired. This is for what they described his support for white nationalist and anti immigrant rhetoric after e Mail showed that he was promoting those views and organizations allied allied with those views. The trump administration claims that it is in fact Miller being subjected himself to Anti Semitism. I wonder what what you you think of this. especially as you've seen some of what are in these Miller emails. I think everybody has the right to defend themselves before we get in this era of social media in all of that you really want to be accurate. That in fact is the case but if it is there's just no place in the serious levels of government for Anti Semitic activities at a- at any level in the government and that worries me a lot when you saw what's in these emails I mean so that's just it's to you. It's very clear. Well I mean when you read the the email yes but I and I have to always suspect in this era with the ability to manipulate. You need to make sure it can't be just a social report on what's an email email anymore because people overreact it because I think this is really serious. If if he's actually saying those things and believes those things and serving in the capacity is in the White House to me. That's a problem you can't have it and so let's make sure that that's accurate. And if so then I if I were the president I would make some changes. You just can't tolerate but it certainly follows a pattern. I mean we know that Stephen Moore has been involved in some of the most outrageous cruel policies of the trump administration ration- when it comes to immigration. We know that during the twenty six campaign from our own reporting with Sarah side that he had supposedly was running the he was the political editor of Breitbart. And there was plenty plenty of very inappropriate comments racist bigoted sexist comment so sure. Let him have his day in court. But I think it's fairly clear he's not someone who should be in any way this ship performing the White House. Let's talk about a key. Line that was in the Washington Post report on this push of this Ukraine conspiracy theory about the origins agents of interference in the election in two thousand sixteen one former senior White House officials said trump even stated so explicitly at one point saying he knew Ukraine was the real culprit Britt because Putin told me because Putin told me someone is remarkable reporting from my colleagues there at the post this is. I mean we've seen publicly this fixation station on the debunked theory. That Ukraine had interfered in the two thousand sixteen election for some time from the president. And what's really noticeable now and is that a lot of his Republican allies in Congress are deflecting attention towards bad debunked theory. You've seen an increasing number of Senate Republicans talk about this House. Republicans Publican's you've had a chairman in the Senate launch investigations that demand documents into Ukraine's again. The debunk that debunked theory. And I think as you as the Senate trial heats up I think you're going to have some Republicans try to deflect that Even when national security officials that just Fiona Hill have said this is absolutely not true or are Senate Democrats in Lockstep on impeachment. We're going to ask one Democratic senator. WHO's facing a tough reelection fight in a ruby red state? There's still time to send Omaha steaks to everyone on your list but don't wait too long. Seventy three percent of Americans in say they'd rather get the gift of great food than more stuff. That's why Omaha steaks really is the perfect holiday gift when you send Omaha steaks. They'll get delicious tender hander filet Mignon steaks and so much more and you'll get the satisfaction of knowing you sent an amazing gift. They're going to share. 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Plus Four Free Omaha steaks Burgers for just sixty nine ninety nine when you go to Omaha. STEAKS DOT COM and type the lead in the search bar. Every gift is one hundred one hundred percent money back. Guaranteed remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN with a looming Senate impeachment trial. All eyes are on Democrats invulnerable states to see if they will risk reelection and vote to remove the president from office or Cross party lines and vote against it joining me now is Democratic senator. Doug Jones of Alabama sir. Thanks for joining US pleasure. Thanks for having me. You've been non-committal middle at this point on impeachment. I know you're still making up your mind waiting to see what happens. So how are you feeling about the vote. What have you been hearing from your constituents? Well I think we're a long way from having a vote we we haven't even got the rules of procedure yet. That's what the big news has been the last few days. What is the what is the Senate GonNa do? I mean senator. McConnell is holding back He accused Democrats in the House of having an unfair process. He seems to be wanting to take a playbook and have an unfair process assists and not a full fare and complete trial with with witnesses. So you know from what I'm doing I am. I'm reading the record from the House. I don't know if we'll have additional record or not spending a lotta time doing that. And I've got folks call in the office emailing the office and it's a little bit both ways supporting the president others that want to have the president removed from office. I think it's going to heat up more once we get back in January and we finally hopefully by then we'll have some rules and the articles of impeachment will be over and we'll know what we're doing. There are House. Democrats in vulnerable districts who voted to impeach in the house. And they say they're okay with risking losing their seat. If you're a Democratic senator in Alabama if your conscience leads you to vote to remove president trump from office. Is that something. You're willing to do knowing that you're going going to risk losing your seat. Well I think my oath of office and my duty to the constitution and the rule of law comes first I and so my conscience is going to be my God. I've got a fair amount of experience. Prosecuting and defending cases. I'm looking at this record. I'm going back and forth but at the end of the day. We'll take a second note to do fair and impartial justice according to the constitution and the laws United States And that's another reason while I'm looking at this because if I violate that oath of a lady the oath of office took a US senator. I I am perplexed as to how somebody can. Now take an oath of office and say they're impartial when there have been impartial. They're not going to be in. They proclaimed and they're not going to be impartial. So my duty and my conscience is gonNA rest with it. Oh Oath of office and that's where I'll stand. Do you really think that senators can save their impartial that they really are impartial. Well I do believe that I mean I think you're looking at an example of that what I am trying to do. What I think is in the best interest of the country This is about the future of the presidency. It's about the future of the Congress about the future of the country. That's a pretty weighty the that's pretty weighty on anybody shoulders and I think once we get in then in the solemn the of the occasion is going to really weigh on some people. This is N- should not be a partisan partisan issue When I when this first broke before we left in October I gave a long speech on the Senate floor about people getting out of their partisan corners? It is not easy to do in the political article. Divide that we're seeing in this country today but the fact of the matter is that's what we we're in the Senate to do. That's what we're supposed to do what the oath requires and I think we what we really need to be focusing on. It's a process that's going to give the president of the United States a full trial fair trial. He has been waiting as he said over. And over and over again for a fair trial in the US Senate but that fair trial is also got to be fair to the American public and not have gaps in the evidence. You can still convict or somebody not guilty guilty with APP gaps in the evidence but the fact is we need to know all of the evidence we need to know from the people there firsthand knowledge. The people that were in the room that can tell us one way or another another because all these facts are coming out sooner or later whether they get leaked out or whether they get foyer or whether they're coming out in a in a book by one of those one of those guys to to your point lean about getting out of your partisan corner in the middle of this divisive impeachment and might really surprise a lot of people to realize that the president is signing the defense authorization bill today and it has a bipartisan fix to the Kiddie tax in the widows tax which are penalties on Gold Star families in the benefits that they receive for the loss of their servicemember loved. Ones use spearheaded this effort with Republican Senator Susan Collins and in order to get this congress had reached a deal on a lot of issues the Democrats. The Republicans don't agree on. Why can't there be more of this? Well I think there is a lot more going on than than what people see. I think if you just look at what's happened in the last two weeks with the Indie a there's a lot of things. There is the paid parental leave the NDA. There's modernizing the military. There's a three point one percent pay raise for for our military families. We've also did the Future Act where we permanently fund H inman serving institutions. There was a deal reached on. US NCA where the president did a great job of negotiating that in Democrats in the house made it even better. There's a lot at that really goes on just kind of gets lost in the shuffle of mainstream media as well as social social media that we talk about the partisan divide but the fact is learn a lot of people reaching across the hour. Right now to try to figure out the ways to get things done for this country and I think if you just look at what what happened in the last two weeks. Assad from impeachment there was a lot of great things for the American people. Senator Doug Jones of Alabama. Thank you for joining us. My pleasure thank you for having smaller stage bigger fights why a battle over a wine cave took center stage in the Democratic Debate. The building it adds pete on the other hand. This is David Pain. The writer and producer of somebody somewhere a true crime investigative podcast Every now and again a story comes along that makes you question your fundamental assumptions about human survival. Somebody somewhere season to who takes you deep inside a murder mystery where three homeless teenage brothers have been charged with a double homicide in a story that has much of a search for the justice as it is for hope binge somebody somewhere season to the jungle murders wherever you get your podcast. Hey It's Howard Beck and I've got channing Frye on bleacher reports the whole forty. Small Ball is not winning like that anymore. Unless you're the rockets and at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you do is just what he does. They took the full. Forty eight is available each week on the bleacher report APP. And you can subscribe for free at Apple. PODCASTS mirror footage taking some heat as a top tier candidate in two thousand nineteen final debate and understandably so because polls show him with a good shot at winning Iowa but as C. N. N.'s. Jeff Zeleny reports. Another front runner wants to box him out as the Democratic candidate to take on president trump. The six point two. The first votes of the twenty twenty campaign is on with Joe Biden all smiles today after emerging unscathed from the final debate of the year. I do worry about this notion that the Democratic candidates spend a lot of time attacking one. Another I tried not to do that. The field of Democratic candidates finding out for one last burst of campaigning before the holidays with Amy Klobuchar opening at twenty seven county. Bus Tour of Iowa were Pete. Buddha judge is heading this weekend today. There debate class still reverberating after closure aggressively challenged the qualifications of the thirty seven year. Old South Bend Mayor. I have not denigrated your experiences. A local official I have been one actually did denigrate. My Experience Senator and I was going to let it go because we got bigger fish to fry here but we have bigger fish than picking a president of the United States. Buddha judge also coming under fire from Elizabeth Warren who repeatedly questioned his fundraising practices actresses including a recent Napa valley event billionaires in wine caves should not pick the next president of the United States Buddha jet responding that he welcomes most donations because according to Forbes magazine. I'm literally the only person on this stage. Who's not a millionaire or billionaire? The night of fireworks on stage did little to settle one of the biggest questions weighing Democratic voters does a moderate or progressive. Stand the best chance of defeating. President trump the divide is front and center on healthcare. I've added to the Obamacare plan the Biden initiative which is a public option. Medicare if you want to have Medicare put your hand down for second partner. Okay waving Joe No. It was the smallest debate lineup of the year. Just seven candidates offering a far different view of a field field was once the most diverse in history. It's both an honor and disappointment to be the lone candidate of color on the stage night. I Miss I Miss Corey though. I think he'll be back now. Speaking of Cory Booker he is campaigning in Iowa. He picked up an endorsement of a local county chairman. He said he's going to go all the way until. Those Zayas caucuses Brianna now. They're just forty five days from starting this campaign who it's finally getting close. Jeff Zeleny thank you so much from sunny. La All right. Let's this. Let's talk about Joe Biden okay. He was largely gaffe-free. He pushed back on candidates who came after his record. Do you think the debate practice here. Melanie has paid off warm. ABC finally look by. No question had the strongest debate performance. We've seen I think he largely benefited. Though from the fact that you had Warren and Amy Klobuchar overcharge going after peop booted judge so he was really able to sort of sit back and avoid a lot of the incoming fire and he. He repeated a theme right. He repeated a the theme that he's hammered home. We saw him this last night. The last few months or proof that he can work across the aisle to get things done. Let's watch anybody has reason to NOT WANNA work with Republicans starting with trump and working the way down to some of the members of the House and the Senate it's made this is about about the president has to not only be able to Fight back a president has to be able to unite so on one hand just looking at the dynamics chairman of this. He's talking about being a uniter but he also has to be trump and that's incredibly important to Democratic voters. Does it make sense that he can do both. Do you think I think he can listen. I when I was chairman of the Intelligence Committee I work with Joe Biden. Quite a bit on pretty significant issue Syria other. Thanks policy. Some we agreed on some didn't but he's easy to work with in that environment and so I do think that's a strength and I think that's probably why he's doing as well even after this much time. He's kind of defied the odds a candidate that's out front doesn't normally last out front this long and so I think that's a strength going into it and he is very different from the other direction of the of the Democrat Party. I think Peggy Noonan said it best. You can't be trump with crazy and I think think that was her way of saying. Hey you know you're going to have to Democrats if you you have to pick somebody who does know how to work Who has the experience? And who is more centrist I in his ability to govern the country even though Biden and said I'm willing to work with Republicans even though they're coming after me the question is will republicans be willing to work with him you know. He is the source of this impeachment. Fight Right now. You have a lot of Republican people in the House and in the Senate who are going after him and his son and you can see that if he becomes President Republicans will probably be calling calling to investigate him and his son overall this Ukraine matter. I think they might but at the same time he would be the president so that would be in their political interest to work with him. I mean let's remember that Mitch Mitch McConnell's got a few tough races that he's looking out for as well so we don't yet know how the Senate is going to play out the thing. That Biden has done. Well as you said. Defeat defy the odds but also so he has stood up he and his son have Bo stood up to the criticism. His campaign has actually done a very good job. Keeping him a top of the pulse and that's part of the tests and a primary primary as well by the way whoever becomes the nominee. I'm here to tell you get ready because it is going to be a daily barrage like nothing you've ever seen so the candidate has to be tough and I think think he's actually shown Dir ability but the campaign has to be able to withstand it as well so men. He did benefit as Melanie said from Senators Warren enclosure which are going after footage last tonight. They're trying to make him not a guy of the people but someone who's taking these Big Dollar donations doesn't have enough experience. Do you see forty five days out from Iowa. Do you see that being something that sticks is that something that resonates and we'll be bad for him. It'll be interesting to see what how much that ends up sticking and remember that the people to judge we'll have one advantage over the two senators who attacked him last night. He gets the chance he gets a lot of time. And a lot of chance to campaign in Iowa while Senators Warren in Senators Kluber Jar. We'll be stuck in Washington for that Senate impeachment trial so he can directly make that case to the voters that he is electable that he has a policy vision that that is reflective of of the Democratic Party. I just find I found coach. I really interesting last night too as well because she consistently does have great debate performances format. But she's still kind of stuck in that middle slash lower tier. I think she's constantly looking for. That breakout moment in Iowa key again. She's going to be stuck in Washington for that Senate impeachment spent trial well. Here's something you don't see everyday. President trump attacking popular evangelical publication. And the reason that it's it's calling for trump to be removed from office next next. Hi Everyone I'm poppy harlow. We're out with a new boss files episode. She ran for president was the first woman to run a fortune. Fifty Company and cancer survivor. Who says she is not afraid of anything anymore Carly Fiorina? She's out with a new book. Find your way unleash unleash your power. and highest potential she was. CEO of Hewlett Packard during the dotcom boom and bust before being fired in what she calls a board room brawl. Aw She's face. Discrimination survived breast cancer and lived through the unimaginable loss of a child. She calls herself a problem solver and says that's why she ran for president after running against then candidate trump in two thousand sixteen to Sheikh. Think he should be impeached now. I ask her here at all. I'm boss files subscribed today. NEWHAM NEWHAM like everybody in Palm Beach. No no one knows how he made the money happening buttoning my short and pulling my body already naked body faster than I could a for over sixty years. I've reported on Jeffrey Epstein. The man the multi-millionaire the monster. Now go behind the story with me. Vicki booed I of CNN's new. podcast the Jeffrey Epstein I knew subscribe. Now where have you get. You'll put costs. The president in a new fight with an Evangelical magazine founded by the Reverend Billy Graham the editor of Christianity today publicly saying that president trump should be removed from office. Question is when does his behavior which is described as immoral accurately rise to the level where. He's no longer fit to serve office and to me. We Cross that line with the impeachment hearings. The president firing firing back at the publication on twitter calling it a far left magazine or very progressive. Well we should point out. It's not it's not those things this is actually a centrist Evangelical John jellicoe publication. Is this going to win over any evangelical Sung Men It depends I mean. Clearly it is a very influential official publication within the Evangelical World but the president throughout his presidency and even during the campaign has had a very tight grip on the Jellicoe vote you had exit. Polls showing eighty percents outside of white evangelicals back trump and and the two thousand sixteen elections. You have a recent poll. Saying he has the support about seventy approval of seventy five percent of evangelical approve approve of them. Whereas it's hovering in the low forties overall Evangelical voters have largely look to if not the behavior of the policies of this administration. And what we saw from the campaign statement that was released by the trump campaign. On this editorial they've emphasized the president support for Israel his support for judges who who uphold religious liberty his abortion policies. And I think for now those policies are the ones that that section of voters have looked for in here. Look here's a campaign statement that we just had This is something that the president is tweeting about a ton. The son of the late Billy Graham Slam the magazine now the campaign sending out this statement. I wonder how much which this shows you about how nervous they are about this melanie especially because they're trying to get the backing of Graham family members with that steam and this was a key voting bloc for trump this is a key part of his coalition. He needs a hold onto them to be able to win reelection in two thousand twenty. But the fact that you have grams family members coming out and rallying behind him. I thinks shows how strong the support is. And if the Evangelical is didn't leave trump after the Syria decision were. They pulled out and left. Our Kurdish allies slaughtered if they didn't flee him after the Access Hollywood tapes after all these things. I don't think this editorial is very. That's exactly the point. I think part of the point as a Christian part of the point of the piece was to say enough is enough. There's enough and they've got the judges right so there's to some degree that's what he campaigned on in two thousand sixteen. They've gotten judges. And maybe the point is that constant constant immoral behavior in addition to all the other tenants of Christianity welcoming the stranger being good stewards of the earth which have all been thrown out the window. Enough is enough. You cannot lead this country offer moral leadership when you lie every day all the time and he behaved the way he does. Maybe that's the point. We're well into his presidency agency. At this point you were referring to that and the magazine address why they did this now. Here's what they wrote. We have reserved judgment on Mr Trump for years now. Some critics criticized sized us for our reserve. It's time to call a spade a spade. We're playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence. What what do you think about? What do you think about the timing well? I'm not sure about the timing. But this is a crack the first real crack that I've seen because that coalition is so important Jordan and when I was in office I had a pretty simple rule. You and people can disagree with your policy. As long as you're engaged you talk to them when you embarrass the people that vote for for you. That is a different game and I think what happened over time. It was getting harder and harder and I'm not talking about the policy issues. Even impeachment necessarily it was when you attack people using the power of the presidency to attack individuals so viciously personally over time. That is just not the Christians will accept as good behavior and I think that loss of that that he didn't grow into the office he kind of doubled down on what got him there. And I think that's what you're seeing in. That article is some confusion some disappointment. And some of these folks. And maybe maybe we need to rethink this. It's not that he you can't get over this but I do think it's a crash that they're going to have to pay attention to coming up. A republican state rep accused of domestic terrorism. The trump like defense. He's using as he refuses refuses to resign in our national lead. If impeachment wasn't enough to convince you how divisive and undivided politics has become a Washington state. Republican lawmaker is accused of domestic terrorism as CNN. Sarah signer reports. He's refusing to resign and he's using President President Trump's impeachment tactics as his defense thank you. Mr Speaker seeks to put this to vote of the people stunning finding this Washington. Washington State Republican lawmaker facing accusations of domestic terrorism against the country. He swore to serve. That's according to an investigation commission by the Washington State Legislature Article One is adopted and the state rep is using president trump's impeachment as part of his defense the state has now forwarded the report against State House Representative Match Shay to the FBI and US attorney the five month long pro bounds shape participated in an act of domestic terrorism against against the United States engaged in and supported the training of youth and young adults to fight a holy war and advocated the replacement of democracy with theocracy and the killing of all males. Who Do not agree? The investigation also cited Shays engagements with the Bundy family anti-government activists who call for armed resistance in the takeover of federal lands. The report lists Shays militant actions across three states in two thousand fourteen in Bunkerville Nevada. In two thousand fifteen in Priest River Idaho and in January twenty sixteen in Burns Oregon Shea engage with militia members in the planning of an armed takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Wildlife Refuge. That incident ended with federal and state law enforcement moving into remove armed militia members and ultimately killing militia member Robert Lavar finicky after a police chase last night shade defended himself in a statement on facebook saying in part like we are seeing with our president. This is a sham investigation. Gatien he added. I will not back down I will not give in. I will not resign so house. Republican leadership has suspended representative additive Shea from the Caucus and removes his ranking position on a key committee the Republicans saying and noting that investigators mentioned that he didn't respond onto their request for an interview for their report. He also did not return. CNN's calls Brianna. Sarah thank you so much for that report and be sure to tune in the Sunday morning for state of the Union. The guests twenty twenty Democratic presidential candidate. Senator Amy Klobuchar Republican Senator Roy Blunt and Democratic Senator Dick Durbin that is at nine. Am and twelve PM Eastern on Sunday and our coverage on CNN continues right now so you can still send an amazing gift. This holiday season with Omaha steaks. They'll get delicious tender stakes to share remember and love and you'll get the satisfaction action of knowing you sent a special holiday gift if you act right now. podcast listeners can get the favored gift package for just sixty nine ninety nine go to Omaha on stakes DOT COM and type the lead in the search bar. You're happy friends and family will open their door and find a cooler packed. With deliciously tender filet mignon stakes aches plus premium meats sides and desert. They'll be excited when it arrives and think of you. Every time they prepare and enjoy their meals Omaha. steaks is a fifth generation. honoration American family owned company. That's been handcrafting. Incredible state gifts for one hundred two years and every package is unconditionally. Guaranteed so you can send this gift with complete confidence when you order right now with this exclusive offer. You'll get four Omaha. steaks burgers added your gift for free. That's sixteen main courses. Plus sides in desert. Christmas delivery options are still available. But don't delay order your Omaha. steaks favored gift package for. Just sixty ninety nine by typing the lead in the search bar at Omaha steaks DOT com today.

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"A Bowl of Mustard"

The Tony Kornheiser Show

1:19:43 hr | 1 year ago

"A Bowl of Mustard"

"Previously on the Tony Kornheiser show. This one what cheated to get her kid into college and was willing to pay millions of dollars to do it and facing forty years in jail facing forty years. And I suspect that you gotta do some time like a month too. Don't you think one would think is going to jail? I do more. You want him to understand why you are so soft on these rich parents? Guilt over. Exactly, right. Was going. This is General George Washington. And you're listening to the Tony Kornheiser. You're hearing this and there's music behind this. And you're hearing the normal introduction. Just like yesterday, we are having problems with the computer system. So that the music that you are listening to now was putting in what we call post production. Nigel's had a couple of bad games in a row. I don't know that this Trevor Rosenthal situation yesterday yesterday you did announce me after the show that you had found the the error. Yes and fixed and now the error has has again. So do you have any thoughts on that any? I need an old priest and a young priest. Okay. With his usual Plum. The end of the ever just rattle chatter. We have a nice crowd today. Yourselves live breakfast. We're at the corner of Jennifer street northwest and Wisconsin avenue northwest infringe ship heights, the capital's playoffs begin tonight. We will put the all caps flag out on the corner of the patio and invite everybody into watch that game. I don't think the nets are playing tonight. All for puck drop. I'm saying I'm not going to be here. It's right here in spirit. I'm not going to be here for the drop. But, but we will we are showing that tonight. I don't know that we have any particular specials because it's real early in the playoffs. But we'll have the all caps flag out, and they usually win and by us. I mean, they've won every single time. We put that flag. Last night for trots old friend did not do know. Didn't have the flag. Don't so everybody can come to chatter tonight, and they can watch the capitals, and we will become a capitals bar, and maybe we can get that. Ovechkin. Three thing before. And I've a text from Ron he says the viewing party on Monday night provided by the athletic drinks and light fare to watch the game on Monday night is that another caps game on Monday night. Because it's you know, it's not it's not a wizards game. Dave it'll be so David will be. Yes. So that's good. That's good to know. Kevin she and his here right here with Fresno is here. Michael Kornheiser us here Nigel will produce the show not as well as we would like because can do it in post couple of three for fifteen. This is this is Chris Davis becoming the Chris Davis of the show. He'll do the news. He'll do everything is you need me to step in and press the button. Yesterday. It was, but you know, why didn't it institutionalize at that point. Why is it bad today? Parenti they have union representation we have is that a bit. Do you need a new computer his computer, just to set tiny, computer filled? I have spilled things on his computer that made him very angry. Peter must weigh minimum ninety pound ninety seven pounds from we brand. Ninety one looks like your first computer out of college, right? Yes. We need a new computer. We have we have it's hands like Odie. Jimmy, right. Germany's just for this. And also a conference at a concrete is more important had they stopped in London. They could have picked up Julian Assange. Yes. Which we will get to later. So so yesterday, I talked about how wonderful it was that Dirk Visco got the sendoff that he got from his last home game in Dallas. And they had Charles Barkley was Aaron Scottie Pippen was there and Larry Bird was there as a lovely lovely ceremony. And Dwayne Wade had a ceremony not not quite the same in Miami. And at one point tried to jump up onto the scores table table and almost killed him injured his knee couldn't do it. But if you think the vid ski thing was good last night. Wade was on the road. They were in Brooklyn last night work and guess who showed up Chris Paul who still active in the playoffs. I believe LeBron James who had a setback this year their season is done. He Magic Johnson and Rich Paul conspired to palace coup for Anthony Davis and left week. Everybody was weakened everybody. Everybody in the league everybody on those teams. Everybody was weakened. And camello Anthony who is allowed to play. But nobody wants him. They all showed up for Dwayne Wade who wanted a triple double Godwin twenty five points, eleven rebounds and antenna cysts, Dirk viscous went out and San Antonio, twenty points and ten rebounds. Assumed they just let him shoot they did that they don't they don't care about your games. They don't mean anything. So they let these guys do. Well. But I thought that you know, I thought that was really nice the twain way. Dwayne Wade isn't hall of they're both hall of fame players. Dwayne Wade not as culturally significant as Dirk Nowitzki because Turkey leaves as the sixth all-time scorer in NBA history as the greatest European player in NBA history. And somebody who changed the perception of an entire group of players, and he's really important and twain, wait just a really good player. But twain way didn't do any other Dwayne Wade one titles. He. Had a title with shack did in two thousand six but and then he had titles. Lebron and Chris Boyd does not have an MVP right about that. Right now, we have. Dirk has one. They both have rings Dirk has one ring. Wade has three rings. I would argue in anybody would agree with this. Dirk didn't have the cast him Dirk way. I mean, if you're doing the Bill Simmons top hundred players of all time turkeys, above way, I think so we'll bond does not because Wade had the decency to be born and raised in Chicago. And so because because it's the greatest city in the world and everything from Chicago is greater than anything else combined. Admit I hadn't calculated that in you know, that's why he loves oh my God. Yes. That's why love sendoff not talked about with his friends is that LeBron James LeBron James who is absolutely cold blooded. And by the way, that's how you get to be a champion. Michael Jordan, absolutely cold runs. How I got. A bronze never had the killer that Jordan, but he got rid of twain, wait. He. He brought twain wait Cleveland, ten minutes and said is him play. Let's get him outta here, and he arranged it's sort of like in the European for leaks in a rearranged be sent back to Miami. Right. Yes. So I mean, but it was not. I mean, they're all POWs, what is it called the banana boat about it's when they're all writing on the was in Florida, Kevin I forget it was on that giant banana who knows in Utah. I think not right Salt Lake's Fargo. So see lovely. I said the Kevin off air, and maybe I just signed getting old. I don't remember great players from when I was a kid having a year long thing. Like, why do real okay, maybe I just going everybody. Gary. Reaches up five guy. But if people at announce this is my last year, they get gifts at every. I remember I remember my Rivera for sure I mean, I remember that one they all like, it's more of thing. Now, though Chris's point was he didn't think weights. Great now. Very good shooting guard. He's an excellent he's a lock first bell at home. Not Larry Bird or Kareem or magic, Michael. Right. Yeah. He's headed Lewis two best players retiring this year, that's rights. We'll have silver. Did that very nice thing of putting them both on the all star team which everybody was hanging. I think some of it's a function of the fact that they are both broadly liked in the league to did you see Obama's right? I mean, I think I think Wade Dwayne Wade has done good off the basketball court as well. You know, he's obviously more famous at least in part because he's married to a famous actress as well. Who looked great last night in Brooklyn? I like their commercials live. Riding the bike fries. Because I thought that was like the rollout. Endure is not probably Dirk is not player either. So basically, sit earn meeting score closer to the top wages. Turks Dixie freakish player. He's seven feet tall. And can go out to donate shots. I mean, Dirk Kevin also makes the point off air that Dwayne Wade is still pretty good. He can play. He can still play. Yeah. Like durkee? I would imagine Dirk can barely dunk any seven. He's I would imagine that twain weight and Gabrielle union said, you know, what it's time for the great life time for the next thing. Maybe they'll act together. Maybe they'll become like Maury Povich and Connie Chung, you know, maybe they'll host some series about they're they're interesting people that I mean, they're put together in an interesting way, an actress, they're two great stars in different fields. I think people if you put a television show around them, I think people would was more than perhaps coaching or front office. These pretty bright. Awful. And yeah, I've no idea. Well, I mean her being in Hollywood, I think makes that more likely place magic. I mean, LeBron in that space what a dry Warren here yesterday. I was you are here yesterday. Remember here yet while? Mark Gary Johnson. Why just he just quit? He didn't tell is boss that he was quit. He just quit and his and his thing. He said, I just you know, what I want to go back and have fun. This is no fun believing a dumpster fire of my own creation. But I'd like you to shake my hand. And we'll smile we'll we'll have a good time. I listen to this to the shows. I'm not on offer kills notes critiquing guest to tonight, Joel. But Kevin was right. I thought it was either Kevin or you or both of you which he is a guy he wants to be beloved yet. He wants to play. Valley the role of Magic Johnson quote tonight. Starring as Magic Johnson. So that role is not great for that. Because you have people writing how you destroyed our season. Anthony. Thomas lunch. He's he's a guy who was head incredible press his life might so my friend, David Israel pointed something out to me as well that that was I think that we all sort of missed Magic Johnson twenty five years ago wherever long it was was diagnosed as HIV positive that is particularly in that Tommy about anytime that is an unbelievably traumatizing thing his health peers to be great. But he's had the great advantage of being an athlete and having enough money to get all the treatments in the world. But that changes how you look at what do way you don't have to hang in there for the rest of time. If it's something you don't wanna do when you've been diagnosed like that, God bless him for all of the great things that he has done, but he just bolted. He just always I mean, even without that. He's had the means to do whatever he wants to do. But it was an audit exit like one he may regret one. Not talking to Jeannie bus and Kevin hit on this repeatedly. But I mean, it is super weird. I mean, I get I get that you've lost. She's you terrible. She looks worse than her brother. Jimmy now. I mean, like totally ineffective. San's know Assange looks. I mean, yeah, I'd rather be do Jeanie Buss in a Sanju. You're right. But it's just so bizarre. Because I get the were so close that it was going to be difficult. But that you would think would necessitate telling the person because you are so going to be difficult. But he's magic story. They'll be no broyard heard was was on her way to the game in a car, and she got a phone call that magic had quit, and she turned the car around. And she said, okay, we're not going to this the metro which is our here Georgian, Tim, so we're happy to see them. So we'll get out of the first segment because I thought we did it very well. I mean, I'd give us a beep. Plus on the music, there's no music. Sadly, we can't know rhythm rhythm. We would have that going. Will we have berries for Lugo when we return? Can we get Barry from Augusta in theory? Yes in so it's I don't trust anything right now. Okay. All right trust. So Barry's for local. So when we return, hopefully, I am Tony Kornheiser. You're listening to the Tony Kornheiser show. This is the ZipRecruiter ad. I'm going to take option three script. Hiring used to be hard multiple job sites. Stacks of resumes. A confusing review process, but today hiring can be easy. And you only have to go to one place to get it done. Ziprecruiter dot com slash Tony. Ziprecruiter's sends your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching. Technology recruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job as the applications. Come in ZipRecruiter analyze each one in spotlights the top candidates. So you never miss a great match. Ziprecruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate to that site within the first day that makes you job a lot easier. If you're hiring and right now, my listeners people listening to me now can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter dot com slash Tony. That's this is the part that. Always makes me laugh because it says, it's recruiter dot com slash and then it says spell out Tony. I would think you'd wanna spell out ZipRecruiter. Maybe that would be a lot harder because Tony's T O N Y, ZipRecruiter dot com slash Tony. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. This is the Tony Kornheiser show. All right. So the music your hearing at the moment the music, you're hearing is is by blueberry hill, blueberry hill where they're playing. Yes. Believe it's called let the band's called. Let's not okay. The band is called let let me just read this last June. I was having lunch at blueberry hill, Saint Louis restaurant music venue, discussed previously on the show is the place. Chuck Berry used to play once a month until a few months before his passing about a month. Earlier. The Tony Kornheiser show was nice enough to play song by my band. Let's not that's right off our debut album yet. I was still taking a bit off guard when my friend Dave is serve at the restaurant approach the table and exclaimed I had no idea you were little he then proceeded to smile as he pulled the show specific family circus cartoon out of his server book and not as beautiful cartoon, which is somewhere in chatter. Our second album manic came out last week, and we celebrated with the show with the aforementioned blueberry hill as I was packing up. My guitar amp post show, a bartender. I did not know walked up to me and very awkwardly said la- cheese. I'm not sure if I said that right, but Dave could make it and I wanted to say, hi, truly, amazing, the connective tissue this show. This sent to us by Jeremy you are listening to this. Now, you're listening to a song called pilot light. I am not listening to it. Because our computer doesn't work. This is all put in to post production, and I'm certain the songs wonderful level later. And then check into my life. Listen well, tomorrow, I'm we're not doing computer you. You think? Voting floating Muller report was clear, no structure. No collusion. Told on Barry's religion joins us. Now. He is at Augusta covering the masters before I get into the masters who's in the house this year. And I know this going to be an odd question. This is the first masters without Dan Jenkins. And Dan went to everything all the time as long as he could. I don't suspect that the people at Augusta National are going to do anything about that. But is there any sort of, you know, tipping tipping a glass to Dan Jenkins in the first major that that he will miss well for sure I mean, I've walked in the morning to the rather opulent press center that they have here. Noon help it's incredible. And, you know, the first parking space reserved parking space for I think they give you one covered forty straight masters. It's still d Jenkins. And the space is obviously empty his spot in the press center with the rest of the golf digest folks is labeled with his name. There's a hat there. There's a stack of books very unassuming. You wouldn't know? And unless you walked by it, it's not like there's a spotlight on it or or anything like that. And then you know, I just didn't in being around the last couple of days Dan in his older years. Didn't it's not like he went out and walked to Amen Corner. Where yet, you know, walked eight million times before, but he would kind of hold court in little spot off the lunchroom and and folks stop by. And and you he's always so welcoming you would think he would be the primary storyteller. But he listened to stories as many times as he told them. So that that's it. His absences is. Notable you can kind of feel it if you were used to see him around. This makes me very happy. It makes me very happy to know that there is institutional memory like that there's in the palm in Washington DC for many many years. There was a place that more Segal who wrote a sports a million years mostly for the Washington star more Siegel used to sit at the same table all the time. And it was a caricature that said this is most Segel's table, and that's still up. I mean, most dead a long time, and that is still up. Now, there are those of us. And this reminds me, of course, of the beginning of chariots fire in the funeral scene where they go who who's alive to tell the story who's going to tell the story in the future. And this is what's going to happen that generation of people lived in Washington. No longer. Remember mo- Siegel? And there's going to be a generation of people who go to the masters and cover the masters who are no longer gonna remember Dan Jenkins. But it pleases me normally to think that there is sort. Shrine, right. And that's what you're describing. Right. A small shrine that people who knew him would appreciate for. Sure. And then there's also the conversations. I mean, we discussed on the podcasts the trip to the memorial service and. Yep. Talked to and met a lot of people here. Friends of mine, you know, in friends of Dan who people who would would have loved to have gone and couldn't go, and what was it like and Sally got sick. And with her speech was amazing. And so I was talking to Jean won't to hausky from ESPN a couple of years ago had had done a a sportscenter type piece on on and gone to Fort Worth and talk to Sally. And you know, did a wonderful video piece on him. And he said when when Dan tasks they went back to the peace because they were gonna show it again. But they they they inserted a clip that they had not. Used in the original piece, and it was gene Gino asking Dan Jenkins. What would you want on your tombstone and Jenkins just without pausing said, I knew this would happen. I mean, how great is that those kind of stories are still flowing, and it's fun to reminisce and who is in your house this year. Same crew house is the same as always I'm the youngest by somewhere between fifteen and twenty years, and I'm not young. It's Feinstein who. I haven't seen kindred the great Dave kindred. The BAAs, of course, who we kinda share the posts sweet and talk about the naps and arts Fancher longtime, California scribe who's here for about the ninety eighth straight time. K A RT always on. Yeah. All right. I can talk already can talk. How does it? I guess the most important question because we're all going to watch this and we're going to it'll billed for Sunday. But to me the most important questions not who's going to win. You don't know who's going to win. It's the weather forecast yesterday, Steve sands. Said that there was it looked like it was going to be rainy on the weekend soften up. The course he thought that gave an advantage to Rory mcilroy of among others. But the weather the weather forecast change all the time as Kevin well knows you just can't sit there on December first and make a law. You can't you can't sell plays out. So what is the weather for the four days? This is not something that unlike you guys I obsess about too much. I kind of let it come to me. Santa's. Right. I mean, there's there's projected rain over the weekend. It's been a million years since there's been a Monday finish. So I don't think anybody's expecting expecting that. But you know, the other thing about it being soft, and and and not for like they wanted this. They have an amazing amazing ability to control how the how the course plays. Even with the weather wouldn't I was walking around yesterday. I don't know, Tony if you notice this the last time we were down here. But you know, they have the sub air system. Yup. Where if Witter you're walking along, and you all of a sudden you hear this almost like there's a locomotive buried underneath the the turf, and there's a fence and your what is that? What is that? Well, it's it's literally a giant engine that is. Sucking moisture out of the green. So they can't if it rains, you know, three inches thick and make it dry, but they they are in control as much as anybody is in control not gonna see people with squeegees on the sixteenth. They're not going to need that right now. Exactly. So I I wouldn't freak out about the weather. Tiger is the obvious. First question can Tiga win. Of course, tiger can win. It's limited field. Older. Guys win this event. People running away from the notion of tiger will win because it's hard to pick one guy who's going to win this thing. But your thoughts on tiger. So I wrote about him the other day, and I do think, you know, there's a lot made an in. He has made a lot of you know, he won the tour championship last fall. That was his first victory of any kind in five years, which is kind of staggering. And so what is he saying, you know, well, I thought I could win. I thought my game was in good enough shape. But I needed to prove it to myself that I could actually close when when that happened. So even though that was a field of of only thirty players even more limited than than here. Obviously very poor the competition, and he he won that tournament. He believes that proved something to himself. I people watched him reach recently. There's no question that physically he has all the shots back, and and you know, the famous YouTube apple one in Mexico from the fairway bunker where he contorted his body and made the ball land on the green and squirt perpendicular to what its previous trajectory was it was kind of amazing. Doing my thing here is he he, oh, we talked about this before he always made the eight to ten foot or whether it was for birdie or bogey, and the most reason recent memory, we have of him on a green is four feet to extend to match at the match-play, and he lifted out and that to me if that's the tighter that's here. If he's not going to win he has the shots and the knowledge to contend, but he's got to be able to roll in those makable putts. Like, he always did when he was winning his last masters title was two thousand five that's that's eons ago. So you don't you don't believe in my theory, which is he didn't wanna play thirty six the next day. And he was looking for a software to get out. Well, I mean, okay, fine. I would say if that's if that's true. Then I still don't think that takes away the idea that used to make hut for those putts every time. And now he does. Is this an I don't know this. I've assume this, but I'm not sure if I maybe if you're a European the one you want to win more than anything else as the British Open. But I would think if you asked most pros, which is the one you want to win the most I would think it's the master's is that true. I think it's true. I think it's true for even for some of the Europeans, and maybe most of the Europeans there are traditional links type people who would say what they would call the open championship would be their their first choice. But you know, there's a lot of things that that go into it it the fact that it's the first major of the year. It's so tied in with spring starting in the F, let calendar, you know, the NCAA basketball tournament is behind us. Baseball is not even really gotten started the play offs. And the other sports are not, you know, cruising. It's kind of a perfect spot in in the counter and then. I mean, the familiarity with the venue, you can really want to win a US open and this year, the US open, it's Pebble Beach, and that's really icon ick place. But you, you know, US opened could be Aaron hills or you know, it's not the same. As all my gosh. If I win at Augusta. I know the putt I know the shot at the outing that Bill hit from the pine straw. And I know the putt at at seventeen that nNcholas made in eighty six and I know putts on eighteen down the hill from above the whole that Mickelson and others. Have you know, everything is so familiar that? If you if if you win here the shots that you hit are transposed onto the shots of other greats who've done it before, and it's just like each tournament is overlaid on the previous ones, and they build on each other in a way that that because the other. Majors have varying venues it's not the same. I'm not gonna ask you about the capitals or the bullpen or firing Ernie Grunfeld. But I will get you out of here on asking you. If you want to revisit the notion of Jinnah winning the NCAA's, and what you thought of that. Because I I I was I mean, I went on long rants about the arc of literature, and how cool invent that was going to better as time goes on to me. But what do you think? I agree. But I also think you know. So obviously you've address that the title followed the year that they lost teen seed and that that adds a layer. But I would also say ah layer is added not just because they lost to the sixteen feet in that was historic in its own way. But because of the way that Tony Bennett and his players, but let by Tony Bennett handle fat from the moment. It happened in really showed. Whether they had won the national championship the next year or not how to use an experience like not be bitter about it. Not pretend it didn't happen and not own up to you know, they didn't blame it on the fact that the Andre hundred didn't play but the Andre didn't hundred didn't play and who's the Andre hunter turns out to be the best player on the team. The the guy who scores twenty seven the next year and the national championship game and is going to be a watery tickets point. If if you're. We've talked about college basketball in the way, it's changed. And if you root for Duke for different team every year, and it's hard to get to know the players etcetera, if you root for Virginia, and I would say this not because they won the national championship. But you've got something to sink your teeth into you know, that you're going to stick with the guy, but the coach is going to stick with his guys that you're gonna watch players Bella individually and team develop as a whole and that it resulted in a national championship. I think is really satisfying for people who like the sport and people who root for good people because I don't know Tony Bennett. Well at all, but those those are good people down there. And the I thought it was a really great story me too me too. I thank you. Enjoy yourself there. And please come by the studio. The next time you're gonna spend any time here in Washington again, sit down with us, right? I will thanks very much. Always for Luga, boys and girls, we will take. The break. We will have news when we return, I'm Tony Kornheiser. This is the Tony Kornheiser show. This is the quip. Ed quip was designed to make brushing your teeth more simple, affordable and even enjoyable raise your hands. If you're in your cars now if you consider brushing your teeth enjoyable, I think I think it's actually has on the wheel. Yeah. I sort of. I sort of. Flossy, but really? More work. You know, I never thought of brushing my teeth as not being affordable. I have to concede that that that's a new one. Because this is the quip is designed to make brushing your teeth. More simple, affordable is expensive in the end. I guess sensitive sonic vibrations gentle enough on your sensitive gums because people brush too hard and some electric toothbrushes too. Abrasive a Bilton two minute time. Repulses every thirty seconds to remind you to switch sides, helping guide a full even clean because up to ninety percent of us. Don't brush for full two minutes or don't clean evenly brush heads automats delivered on dentist recommended schedule. Every three months, we're just five dollars because three out of four of us use bristles that are in the words of people looking at me old worn out and ineffective now in the call to action which is mandatory I have to say why love quip, and this is where this is where it falls apart. I liked quip fine. Very admire. It think it's a good product. I recommend it. If looking liking suits. I don't actually love it. But it's backed by over twenty thousand dental professionals, and maybe that's enough to get utilized. It quit starts at just twenty five dollars. And if you go to get quip dot com slash Tony Kaye right now, you get I refilled pack for free with the quip electric toothbrush. And don't get me. Started on the notion of electricity in this particular toothbrush. That's your first refill pack, free G E T Q, IP dot com slash Tony Kaye. You're listening to the Tony Kornheiser show. So here's the problem that we have you're hearing bread. Wisconsin's with this song Tiffany and tequila, which is a great a wonderful. Take your word for it. I'm not hearing it because I just computer once again is incapable. What is it? We are single channel. Yes. It's only playing in one especially playing stereotype playing the right channel. Is that me it means that the audio coming out would not be worth planks? That's why I loaded I read Wisconsin, right? Hey, Dr grandpa wanted to share my brand new single tip me into kilo before I embarked to perform on the runway to paradise Caribbean. Cruise with Jon Bon Jovi, we leave out of Miami on Friday the twelfth that's tomorrow and set sail to the Bahamas perhaps when I get back. I can regale you with stories of how I hung backstage with Johnny Bonnie and how he's really chill guy. This track was produced by Tom Doherty, Dave restrained from Luke Bryan's ban, led the glinting the slide guitar track. I wrote the song ten minutes on February twenty fifth and now it's on your airwaves. You're hearing it yet. You're not has that for quick turnaround. Little can download or stream on all the major platforms today or Brett, Wisconsin dot com. Red Wisconsin sent wonderful music before. I've no doubt. This is wonder. People like Brett wanna send us music. How do they do? Southend issue music by emailing it to jingles at Tony Kornheiser, show dot com. And if you want to make us rich so that we can afford a new computer. And and you want to help us by by buying stuff that we sell. How do we do this go to shop that Tony Chrysler show dot com? Or of course, we are in it for just the pure reason to amass wealth when selling reasonably priced very diverse. Tools and steel tumblers. Yes. I don't this quickly. I'm good. I'm good. So by the way, just to keep people abreast of the situation in the room. Michael currently watching the opening ceremonies of the masters with all the old dudes getting they hit a driver. They they hit driver for a while. And then by the way, all of that county Gary Player can still hit at one eighty two pumps it. Yeah. Jerry players the strongest eighty three year old man in the world the competition for for these three guys trying to out drive each other and hit the fairies. That's everything you Tom Watson can hit it to thirty still. I bet he can to fifty looks like a jar mustard in the outfit that he's is. He wearing all yellow area brand. I mean, he looked Ronald McDonald in bear. You know, he's going to do that. I. Varies discussion of the identity of the masters. Beautiful lovely varies really good. That's really good. The is doing a try and play with Barry June. We're gonna try and play Pinehurst with Barry in case people pine her. So now listening number seven we're gonna play two four two and four is what we're gonna wanna play in the cradle and Alex pogo, stick it better. Be listening to this and made sure to setup Alex Lagarde. I have set up an appointment with a with the technical guy tomorrow. So the next time we meet on Monday. This computer will be fully operational last book just put down to one odds. Mission accomplished just gonna done. I know we want to talk about Julius owns. But did you wanna touch quickly on the the the? Such okay. Julian Assange that the seven and conscience, or you know, lack of conscience of WikiLeaks. Yes. After spending seven years in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. They finally said you've got to go, and we'll get into why exactly that. Well, we'll tell you watching this on the today show. Yeah, they are carrying Julian Assange out. He did not look happy that he looked fat. I mean, he's been in that could bring embassy for seven years leaving apparently making an appearance on a balcony. Yeah. To make statements leave. Okay. So what what was said by the car sponde- int- in London for NBC news. And I think I got this. Right. A couple of things stood out to me was they got tired of his music the music. He was playing and they got tired of his cat. Yes. They got this cat. So get rid of the cat. They should've just tuned into this show. They wouldn't hurt them. You. That's right. And they carried him out. And he did not look happy because he knew his as he walked outside news with outside. He would be rested which immediately was one of the big house Brits arrest needs. Harry's by the way back. Yes. The parents that doesn't look any. Maybe he looked when he hit the big. He's looks like she's ninety doesn't look anything. Well, it's been a tough seven years. I'm sure he doesn't look anything like when Benedict Cumberbatch portrayed him in the movie anything like no correction, dad. Sorry to interrupt Watson. You're thinking of the par-three pairings yesterday. Just Nicklaus player. Okay. Not Tom Watson. Let's not old enough looks resplendent in all black apparently, the people at the embassy cut off his internet access last March while that should have been clue because he said check Twitter reached an agreement not to interfere in the affairs of other states. No, he he's done bad things to the Ecuadorian leadership. Yes in apparently, he's become increasingly hostile within the embassy in the face. And this is then say sit down here for while. This is the last line of this piece of timber from the Washington Post Ecuador impose tighter house rules last fold among the demands with Assange pay. For his medical and phone bills and clean up after his cat. We not be up to your cat for God's sakes body music down. Yeah. Enough of the Grateful Dead, Jerry. He's due on the first of the month. So he's out. Yes. And by the way, it it doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to think that the United States is going to try to extradite him, by the way, and they're going to get cooperation to do. So oh, sure they carried him out. And he was not of him into this black hole. It was not happy. Not all. No, no. He's not and which Snowden looking around his apartment in Moscow saying this is good, right? I play the music low. I don't have a cat. Cat cat. Yeah. All right to Gusta to the par-three contests. Yes. Holes in one, right? Michael designed to have him. Yeah. Marco Mira, Shane Lowry. Someone named devante bling and someone Wallace greatness, those divine bling and Matt Wallace familiar with their Hoover familiar with their names. I have another wreck. I've a golf question. More Matt walk met Wallis shall take this one not rusty Wallace. No, man. I'm Marcia Wallace, y'all aid. Okay. And then they they show him doing an interview with a his caddy who is a very attractive younger woman do their wide caddy four. That's the tradition is he bring out your wives girlfriends LeBron. Yes. And for Jackie famously brings his grandkids. So now you see two or three grandkids on his bag. And the question is are you going to play for score nut there's famously this superstition that if you win the par-three you are not going to win the big tournament. So you see the big pairing of speed Fowler Thomas? Sometimes they'll go out the play all the shots, but they might goof around so they're not officially recording the score. But you know, it's a big thing to see what your girlfriend dresses up in a lot of pressure. Now, they've they used to have one size jumpsuits. Now, the got little toddler one. Ones. Did you see this shot that speed hit the twenty ounces off the top of the water? Did you see that scam? Stick. Did you see the most annoying video of Bryson d Shambo trying to break down the physics of skipping? The driving force. No. Shut up this nerd what else might be able to Nigel from and might. Well, that's more than just a computer. I have problems with as we we'll know based. Already problems with washing. That's listening. So I'm watching the nets. And this is true last year long moving. Thanks. I'm watching the NATs. And and I am going around the dial. I'm watching Jeremy heloc since pitching. I'm watching a little bit of the NATs. And I'm watching as well an NBA basketball game. Why and goes around playing going around from movie to movie landing on the Griff tres at one point and spending fifteen minutes with the Griffin grand moving every time. I turn back to the national ones. They had more runs than I never saw any. Fifteen runs. I didn't. I tuned in. It was already three nothing. I didn't see any of the fifteen run Ren down. Judah had more fun trying to count all fifty states in your head. She didn't see missed every Trevor Rosenthal. Yes, he was he recorded one hour. Yes. His line for the night. One inning one hit a one one run whilst one strikeout run. Yes. But the outs were there. Yes. Big thing. Crystallises favorite player. Dosier is beginning to get some hit. So you're seeing some of the often to see in second base. And again, we were looking at offense from second catcher. And you're beginning to see those positions hit where these runs are coming from what I would say is if you are a nets fan. And if you are in in debt to along those as I am for all of that great gear. The takeaway from that particular game. Was this nat- score fifteen and Bryce Harper goes over to. I mean, you cannot play the Phillies without being cognizant of what Bryce Harper elegant struck spot. That's a really good night. If you're a nets fan you win in Philly with a tremendous amount of runs and Harper does squad. Oops. That's good. Right. I mean, that's what other movie did you hit on last night to remember? On the stars channel. I've forgotten which movie was but I was there for about ten or twelve minutes. Forgot one sitting in your chair going channel sitting. I'm standing. Work. I'm standing in. I have you consumed any of Fossey verdict yet not yet on we want. Check them both. And you you're pro Sam Rockwell who plays Fossey. Well, I've liked him Rockwell and a lot of things, but I liked him less in three billboards ebbing than than I did in other things and and Michelle Williams win Vern. She's great. The first episode is quite good. And I know nothing about either of them. My wife is huge today. Ans- and musical theater. I mean, did they are revel to his revolutions? Obviously, you know. I mean. Bob Fossey in American choreography is there with Jerome Robbins. And Alvin Ailey day, they are has sort of an Americans five to obviously, they're not kind of the way looks in the way at y'all dot has some similarities chicken, I may be mistaken on this. But I thought that one of those. Yes, I thought Joel fields one of the producers that's something to do with. That would have. To the ice. Mr Tony, and this will come as no surprise to Kevin Sheehan, Tampa Bay Lightning who racked up sixty two wins in a hundred twenty eight points in a regular season fell at home to the Columbus, blue jackets. What do you make of that? So great it scored they read they were down three nothing. One four three four three three goals in the third. Terrific game. I bounced around between some movies like to amend missed all the NAT scoring has hit on the high school Georgia that you're right near Augusta. Love that team big city. So that was a surprise. Remember Tony gang member? Columbus verse two from the caps slash. That's right. And then lost four in a row. Right. And this is the team that win the Presidents Cup like lose all the time often. And it's. There is impossible impossible. Lee standing on the Nashville predators. Involve the cost the prince loss to lost. Do we still call the Tempe? Lightning Ning nobody knows the name though. Yeah. That's a name that completes our hockey segment for the next two weeks. The San Jose Sharks beat the Vegas Golden Knights. And the first goal of the night. We schooled by Joe was the other way round last night. Oh, you got that. Right. Yeah. San Jose beating the Vegas Golden Knights five two, and Joe Hamill ski was charging the net somebody shot the puck, and he's charging trying to tip it in. But the puck went. Hi, hit him in the face knockback, jockey and the puck win into the net. So he gets credit for a goal scored. Then as to lead off your body is a goal scored. If more don't knock it like, right? Punching in. Okay. Yes, offsides before emits one shift and then came back and played the rest of the game. Because that's what they do in the blues jets game. Nobody getting that in the photo. Our when you do that in the this is story for Chris LIZA, the woman and Taiwan twenty nine year old woman who went to the doctor because I had Scotland Joschka she was unbearable pain. She's thought it was an infection. And are I would not stop tearing writer. It wasn't just an infection was not. Yes. You know, what it was? Oh, yeah. So that don't look through that device called a microscope. And and as he said, he witnessed something he hadn't seen before insect legs were wiggling from one of our eyes. Chris. This is something known showed. Louis coming as a sweat bee. All right. The doctor pulled that one out then a second third and then a four on this. They were lives. How do they sustain themselves Nigel? They they eat they feed themselves on human tears. They literally drank her tears. Yes. So the dogma suspected it so country was this this isn't Taiwan. He's suspects. This was to place the previous difficult for those bees to fly here from Taiwan. Well. Flyer miles. I'm not worried about them yet. Get United and much more worried about that. Coli jerem resisting. About can veto whatever the assistant, George they don't sting, right. Sweat bees. Well apparently minute sting, but they were causing quite a bit. But it's not bad. No one. They got in there because they were tracked into her tears. Well, no, she was taking something old the the they smoke or they played tracks of my tears. They got her on something called tomb sweeping day. She visiting. And tiding relative's grave with the family squatting down and pulling out weeds. She felt something in in. I think it was only she cleaned with water did not rubber is that much for the rest of the day. Didn't think much of it until that night when she woke up in the eye was swollen shut wall. Yes. But so four B's got in that in that exact moment. Yes. They the moral is don't go to grieve the graves to the city, others stay away. Yes. It's never good sign. When the doctor either says, hey, guys, come in here. At this this or I've never seen this before. Yeah. We'll take a break old guy radio when we return another song. We're not going to be able to hear. It's not that great song. I'm Tony corner. You'll listening to the Tony Kornheiser show. Okay. This is radio. No. I'm not hearing radio that I'm not hearing. It all your hearing was put in after the show wrapped up. What is the song? Somebody. I'm Zimmerman called blown in the wind. Oh, yeah. We're playing this. Because it was the first time he ever sang this publicly. Yes. Speed with it was on April. Eleventh April sixteenth and nineteen sixty two at seven years at goods folk city in Greenwich Village, waiting for John Lee Hooker. He performed this song. But I went in the wind and later put this on his first album, which was the free will involve Dylan album. And when asked about it he said, there ain't too much. I can say about this song except that the answer is blown in the wind. It ain't it ain't no book or movie or TV show discussion group men. It's in the wind, and it's blowing in the wind. Just FYI. I he was all of twenty one when risk on in the wind. Yeah. So good. What what have you got what I? At twenty one the end of that quote. He says I'm only twenty twenty one years old. And I know that there's been too many you people over twenty one year older and smarter. Well, guys. Zolt? My Repton lyrics lyrics that come into your head in the middle of the night for eight hundred. I was walking the dog this morning at five thirty and for reasons that are unknown to me I started thinking about the song by the Rolling Stones nineteenth nervous breakdown. So I so this is my favourite lyric from it is your mother who's an heiress owes a million dollars tax and your father still perfecting ways of making ceiling. And I just thought what a great line that is. I wanted to mention it for no reason other than that. There's something I do wanna mention we'll get to the first round of the NBA playoffs. The thing about a black hole. I don't know what that is. I know it's very important. It seems to have led every single newscast by understand it correctly. There did never been pictured before much like the ghosts. And Ghostbusters had never been pictured before in theory, at least or impracticality a black hole is is something that when matter enters into it at discipline never history. What is that? Mean means it only berry Sanders could could gave it. As long as it's seems to me based on the discussion of the bees in that woman's is. Yeah. Yes. I think if you saw a black hole on the other side of the street. You would not venture Niro grandpa, take you wild to get there. What? So how it? Hundreds the expert here. So I'm not, but I know they had to invent a telescope just defined the thing, and they were just one or they're many. Oh, they're probably it's called the event. Horizon telescope, I believe yet, and they do invent the telescope to be able to find thing, and they're very excited about it you asking how many of these things black holes are there fourteen. You don't expand its thirty one team league. Right. Well, they got a team in the NBA. Carmelo Anthony was known as pass in the right? Right. The ball would never come back to you. No matter what gravity is. So intensive lack hold light can't even escape it. That's that's why gets the name black hole are okay. Are black holes. Acquisitive do they move around and eat planets. I know that sounds stupid. They might expound much have to fear. This. With the marvel universe. Some people some people think that maybe there's like a pathway to other universities travel through this universe. Galley Alice through the glass, it might if they will maybe people are Trump credit for this was found his administration's not this is not theoretical. No. This is this is a real thing. Yes. But you don't even tell us what they say. It does. Yes. Expand. They think it's when a son collapses or something like that. That's that's a great deal. But it's not like, oh awesome. For each son at the universe. Seven son to seven so talking about the seven the whole wide world is only one. Lyrics. See thinks it has something. The immigration problem. And there is this conversation be excerpt in the next scientific American, look, I really emit. I'm a moron on these things. Attention. It's a big deal. None of us understand. Why the? Very well. What the woman that captured the image just twenty nine years old. Yeah. She like she came up with the algorithm to make sense of all the data and make it into a picture could fix your wait. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah. She. Yes. Took the picture is she figured out how the picture could be taken. And they press the, but they sent special tell the scope. Hates the picture. Are we making this telescope tells him up with how it could be photographed Fierro medically? No really now. No. But I'm saying yes when? She. Now, this is like it. What is that fabulous movie? The Jessica Chastain zero dark thirty she came up, theoretically. Somma bin Laden white Ford to execution. It was well done by this twenty John McCain about execute. Yeah. I'm in favor of of his play. Of your players. I'm in favor. Fumbled three times six sections, but we made up with it for. Because I am very very old. And I've seen a lot of very very great movie. Some of which are off the beaten path. I was stunned today to read of the death of Charles van Doren who I thought had been dead for twenty to thirty years at ninety three years old Charles van Doren. I'd who is Charles van Doren. Yes. Yes. Charles van Doren, the telegenic Ivy league scholar who's winning run at a nineteen fifties game show contestant made him a central figure in answering scandal that raised enduring questions about deception and popular entertainment died, April ninth that retirement community in Canaan, Connecticut, he was ninety three to later generations. His story was known in large part to director Robert Redford's, nineteen ninety four movie quiz show, starring Ralph fines array fines, I guess as the handsome college professor who dazzled audiences with zero dish in and then disappointed them with the revelation that it had all been Reuss. I have to save my friends he said at the time, and I had millions of them. Dr van Dorn was an unlikely candidate for TV stardom. He was an author historian and Columbia, University educator, whose father was a renowned scholar and Pulitzer prize winning poet, his mother and also made distinguished contributions to American letters DOK van Dorn was. Polymath with a master's degree in mathematics and a doctorate in English. I am just going to say this to you there movies out there that if you haven't seen these moves stop what you're doing. Now. Stop listening to this show and go get these movies. One of them is called the idol maker, which is essentially the story of the scullery of Frankie Avalon and Fabian in Philadelphia by man named Ray Marcucci one of them is Michael Clayton, which is a George Clooney vehicle. That is brilliant. It's utterly brilliant. And one of them is quiz show. Go see this movie. These are all adult dramas. They don't have superheroes in them. Nothing gets blowed up real good. They are dramas about, you know, your spirit and how it is changed by your environment. This is this is a great movie quiz show. There can I make to other well one you saw on jeopardy. This guy didn't cheat. But you saw jeopardy guy one more money than anyone ever hundred hundred hundred. Somebody. The guy sets record two nights happened Orden sing hundred nine thousand night. What's the one hundred ten to get every question? Right. And then go dangle for all of it. So in the last seventy seven the previous record with something in the seven to shattered if you've not seen. I think they meet a mini doc out of this. The guy who this is in the Charles van Doren the guy who figured out the pattern on pressure. Lock the poll by which it. Well, right. Yeah. And the no women show. No. I don't know that. Yes, he figured out it moved. You know, it's a big board with money and things on it. He figured out. He watched and cost. This was in the VHS Erazo cod knows pressing rewind a lot. He watched the pattern and figured out that there was a pattern to how the box moved and he won in one game eighty thousand dollars. And I figured out later. He had cheated it pressure. Luck is coming back. So my guess is they've made. Jeff Ma about some gang stuff. Rufused like thing. Have you seen quish? Yes. It's amazing. So good Turturro's. Unbelievable has herb Stemple. It's so good this movie that is and then I stand it's not for everybody because you got here. To commit to watch. Now, it's kids who like things of blow up. It's just. Marvel going it's slow into director's cut this great concert. And. In the list of those listed three movies. But I think we're gonna make the mount Rushmore. I think Mr. Mr. three thousand definitely on that. Drinking garbage. But every once in a while, you see a movie just goes to say great movie, and and those movies, not I don't think about the idol the Eitel, maybe not. But silly Michael Clayton quiz show were nominated for cat anymore. I don't think they won the should have won. But they were there. Just great movies. And if I'm not mistaken who was the who was the movie reviewer pull out an OSCE. Oh was a movie reviewer at the Washington Post. I think he wrote quiz show if you could look that really. He was the move your view at the Washington Post. I think after how Hinson and I think he wrote helping look it up. I mean, does you? It's just the wrecks tremendous credit. I'll give you another movie. I talked about it last week breach. Oh, Sherrie new. Great movie. These are adult did, you know, this tone that it was based on a memoir quiz show. No based on Richard and Goodwin's memoir. Remorse. Kerns Goodwin's husband guy, Doris Kerns good, remembering America of voice from the sixties. That's that's what it takes us areas. And that who does he play the question. Herb Stemple lost on. I don't Marty. The Motors your. Yeah. Remember he was upset because he's like I would have gotten that one. It was best picture Oscar nominated did not win loss should have won disappointing box office because it's not again, it's it's an adult drama that people don't want to go see John Turturro to echo. Kevin is he does. Night of he sorry. How is he in the bowling movie? Oh in the big Lebel down. He he's from guys against a convicted pederasts Juneau. Do you know sister is no eight two zero Janice from the soprano. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know Tony system. Yeah. So it's all right. So now do we have can we preview the of the NBA playoffs? Yeah. Juice for that. Start with watching NBA last night for a minute or Detroit Pistons got in the final spot without Blake Griffin. Right. He did not blow they play the Knicks. The knicks. Try to meet the wizards. Good for the to lose. Yeah. I mean net. Sixers magic route this clippers warriors and Spurs nuggets on Saturday. Okay. That's our preview that's half of series. You weren't Indiana. Casey orland. Yeah. Portland. Played guys last night that nobody has ever heard of. And they came back from twenty seven down in the third and won the game. I think Spurs nuggets is a good series. Just because the Spurs continue amaze me, they lamarcus Aldridge demar Rosen and a bunch of dudes literally never heard you. And they're still get I'll give the clippers no chance at all. None writing anything in the east that you care to see not really are. Six maybe a little bit to see if the Celtics are interested, but okay in Westbrook. They actually got the path that can get him to the Western Conference finals because they don't have to face Golden State or Houston will on believe, Houston and go. No, Houston, and Oklahoma City are the only teams that could possibly be golden Golden State get in the second round. They would get Houston finish fourth. And now they're playing I think Utah. That's yeah. I didn't know that's a second round series. Did they did they deliberately do that thing? So no, I don't think they didn't tank to lose last. Remember started off very very poorly. And then they had Chris Paul hurtling Capella was hurt. So I mean, really only had their they've been winning a lot lately because Fulton oughta here can I just one other question. Sure. The Sixers playing Nigel Sixers playing yet nets. Will you think any good now? Eight anybody on the nets Spencer Dinwiddie Russell. That's all you can. He's a little bit of whole Mario pets. Mario lopez. I love Mario. He was Jennifer Lopez. Yes. Sure say Ron excellent. We'll be back with the end of the show jingle. We won't hear that. Either. You're listening to the Tony Kornheiser show. Here. He's gone to your house. Access at George olds. Here comes this. All. Oh. He's gone. Four. Really? Time of the show. Yours most likely. All right. I didn't hear the music at all. Because nobody heard the music. Yes. It was a lovely smarter Shaffer. Yes. Mark the Reverend mount Schaefer in the wire beautiful. It's great. So let me thank the people who came on the show today. And that would be one person Barry's Luga, let me thank today. Sponsors ZipRecruiter in quip. Remember to listen subscribe to new an archived episodes Tony corners show wherever you listen to podcast, including apple podcast Spotify. Google play radio dot com. If you listen to tunes, please leave us a review, please listen to the Kevin Sheehan show. Tell them how to get anyway that you just described and leave a review in subscribe and thing for us. You have subscribers. Do you charge money? No, no, no. It's actually a bad verb in the podcast subscribing is just a lot of people subscribed years. No, paying no information. But they just get it delivered automatically without having to reach out themselves. I guess I always think of subscription. It's not. Kevin's podcast is great. By the way. I listen to three podcast regularly this for this Simmons, Kevin and the near bunkerville. But nice. Josh Lovie cartoon that says what made motivates you and somebody says money and somebody says my passion for my craft and somebody says I wanted to be a better person and the one that identify with is pure spite I live only to prove eight is wrong. I succeed to make them suffer from Alex hearts in Fort Collins, Colorado, you monolingual goons, the pineapple landscaping guys said Estee show, a peste using the verb up a star, which means to stink. And you guys thought they were saying this show is the best clues this show stinks and Estee show a pest up. So okay. All right is obviously that guy isn't hurt. Our talk about the black hole. Know from Brian bound Gardner. Are you certain at the Toyota Camry with the one orchid license wasn't Stephen Strasburg after leaving the local McDonalds, I'm certain I saw Dr to the IRR might've been Kevin Malone from Chris hold in elkridge, Maryland, what's more important to bathrooms or two bathrooms win two bathrooms yet when you are enquiring about an apartment, the two bathrooms is the most important thing. You can have if you buy it. It helps you on re-sale it gives you a space that you need to. I mean, I know best advice I ever, Dave. My son I stayed in a hotel New York last week that had I was in a room that had two floors in one room with a staircase. Wow. What hotel rentable skilled the six? It's on fifty eighth street. Is it a new hotel sign like a special waiver that said I wasn't gonna have parties in it? It's a newish hotel right across from where CNN was. They've moved but two stories that was loft bedrooms. Phoenix, please tell me you actually know how E R A works. If not just remember this one simple rule any out that doesn't result in a run lowers of pitchers and a teams ERA aren't they got that wrong? I thought that Infinity could not have been measured in in the NATs collective ERA in once they could measure it, and it was going to be as it is seventy two that would make the team or ERA go up. So I was wrong. If you ask me questions of math and science, I'm not going to get them. Right. It's not what I was good at nail the black David Kincannon Janvrin. This whole Magic Johnson thing with the Lakers is a bigger disaster than the spinal tap album shark sandwich. Remember, the two word of you. Yes. I do. I do. I can't say that from rob Peeters. If I listen to you stand the quip toothbrush. One more day. I'm going to end up launch e container of coffee Creamer into the wall. Let me non technical guy with a degree from the liberal arts side of the campus breakdown how this works much like your hand held Google machine. Our cellphone to the rest of us. The quick has a battery and like your cell phone. The quick battery gets charge using trinity by being plugged in the differences that the quick battery can last longer than your cell phone. So the good people at quip decided they would plug it in and charge it, and then send it to you. They do the work for you. So in essence, they become the worker man you call them. They do the work you pay them. You get the benefits. It's that simple. Just because you personally don't plug it in doesn't make it something non electric it. Just means there's a company out there that designed to product for one percenter who can't do things from self. I truly hope we can move on from this topic and resume complaining about the improperly. Mark pant sizes of a certain mystery. Author or how to discuss a discrepancy with your dry cleaner. That's it. I'm boiling exits from California, Maryland just across the river from our favorite weather watcher Myrtle in London saints really and team in Clinton upset lug. From Dan Walston in Damascus, Maryland, Tony Chris Davis has a zero zero zero average he must be an amazing pitcher, maybe the nationals can trade for him wall. She sued the believing Waverly Pennsylvania, although my seventeen year old daughter claims not to listen when I play the podcast on the way to school Monday. We stopped at a red light when she declared. You don't really love me, my initial dismay comment turn to delight. When I realized we were behind Subaru affirmation baby RJ in bronxville New York, by way of Chicago, Illinois. You may have inadvertently developed an Ingle side litmus test during yesterday's open that will help children push their parents out of the house for generations to come. And it goes a little like this. I said Michael describe this painting, and Michael it's a picture of veteran holding the Stanley cutthroat. So it's it's good at how much time do we have left because I don't know because we don't we can finish up. Can I go with one more from Tyler Fernandez each a recent graduate and left handed pitcher? Her for your alma, maters, smarter, cooler and prettier upstate New York sibling, the Cornell University big red after three long years to Tommy John surgery. I finally told the rubber my senior year for my first collegiate baseball game this took place in college station, Texas against number seven ranked aggies a Friday night game Olsen stadium was just about. It's at its capacity. Sixty one hundred we regretting by fans holding sticks with what appeared to be stuffed bears hanging at the end by nooses, what a warm welcome for the Ivy league, boys. Man, they take their baseball seriously in Texas tried and fortunately, I surrendered five earned on eight hits in just two thirds of an inning of work and left Texas with a whopping sixty seven point fifty ERA. However, it was one of the coolest experiences of my life. The moral of the story is cut Trevor Rosenthal. A rough start happens to the best of us. Whether it is an experienced MLB reliever a certain first baseman for the Baltimore Orioles. Or lowly Ivy league starting pitcher granted, I'm not owed ninety million. Two thousand twenty two nor was I signed to dominate the eighth inning. All the best Tyler Fernandes PS. We played the Bearcats in a yearly home at home series characterized by forty degree weather and twenty mile an hour winds. Not sure if you had any part in it, but university recently completed a beautiful new ballpark nevertheless record against the Bearcats in my four years in the tundra of upstate New York for two in one eat at Tony a great Email. If you're out on your bike time, everyone as always to wear white. We're not gonna if this year. Still. I guess. Yeah. Comb you. Sad. To map to. Putting bread jaw. Why don't you Mosey on the ball? On another round. Do. Can. Key. Boy. Three. Here. It's always laid is. Like a jungle with all. Just. Download. If. From the. You should know. No. Key. Go. Three. Key. Casa migo. Thanks. Maybe.

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