20 Episode results for "Bundy Ranch"

Episode 3: The Martyr

Bundyville: The Remnant

31:03 min | 1 year ago

Episode 3: The Martyr

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- bundy Ville wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help show off their small businesses even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates a warning to listeners before we start this episode contains audio Jio from a police shooting. Keep that in mind when choosing one and where to listen I've seen lavoix finchem die and die and die I can log onto youtube right now and watch finicky when it comes in spliced and paused and dissected by people who never knew him seconds later he dropped to the ground as the topsy shows from the corner. He was shot three times. Want those people to have again and again watched his pickup crash. The driver's door fly open Vinnicombe hops out as a yells to the police. You're going to have to shoot me. Then three bullets bang back dead kill back it up play to get his words sound like a nervous mantra started again. They come across like an unfinished sentence. Are they start start to threat promise. I always think I'll hear some new intonation some missed revelation but finicky. I'm always dies the same three POPs. It doesn't jump or Yelp just crumples body alive one second have you sack of bones dropped to the ground for eternity the next puppet without a hand gravity. That's stronger than spirit death on repeat. It's Finnigan is known own for and maybe it's because his public facing life was a blip twenty one months out of fifty four years from the time finicky marrived alone at Bundy ranch twenty fourteen to the time he died the leader of the Malheur Occupation Twenty sixteen only about six hundred fifty days past. He was a martyr for the Patriot movement made at the speed of the Internet from long reads an Oregon public broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. Bobbio then gets on the stand and he admits he was on a puddle outside street in Salem Oregon's capital city site an old v._f._w.. Hall there's no place you can stand not see the American flag or feel the nostalgic brand of Stars and Stripes Patriotism Assembled here and on the breast every person who's paid fifty dollars to be here is around pin it reads justice for Lavoix set on a border of American flag ribbon people have gathered here to remember incomes death as the program begins some hundred people in the aged crowd push themselves up from folding chairs the best they can curly-haired cowboy in tight jeans begins to leave the room and song. How's the room turns its collective body toward another flag one with yellow fringe they sing low and soft with the cowboy? That's why when it's time for the Crescendo Sing right along as the day unfolds it will become evident that this is in way kind of church is an American religion with its own symbols its own prayers moral teachings deadly sins and now it's own martyr. The name Robert Lavoix finicky or just lavoix is a hollowed one. This is obviously the third anniversary of death. The man on the stage with Mike is mark her to be here in Oregon on a cold foggy Salem morning he lives in Washington. State has been traveling around the country with Finnigan's widow Ginette they've been showing. Doing this movie that her made it's called dead man talking her says it's a documentary but it's mostly just youtube videos that lavoix uploaded in the months before he went to Oregon still. I don't hear anyone complaining about paying for something that they could watch at home for free genetics here to secure the legacy of little Vinnicombe. Her says he wants that to to secure the voice legacy. He also wants you to pay him to take his civics course after you watch the Finnick Movies Eh he runs a nonprofit called the center for self governance as he keeps talking. It's painfully clear that he wants me by his message to it's called Bunkerville but really Bundy bill right bill. He wants it to be clear that he's not afraid that I'm here or that. I shouldn't be afraid of him. I'm not sure or maybe it's that people should be on their best behavior because the media is here you oppose white supremacy. Would you please stand. You're against white supremacy. You don't agree with white supremacy. Okay if you are pro responsible government. You're pro government. You're pro responsible government. Would you please clap her keeps looking at me and my producer as he talks can't help but wonder how much of this performance is because I'm here if you believe that the federal the boundary between the federal government would does eventually become clear is that this is the part of the day they really want shared with the rest of the world the part they want me to get on tape. Were they explained how people in the Patriot movement aren't extremists at all. The people gathered here marker says they love America and what's wrong with that Lavoix finchem loved America's so much he died for it and shouldn't we all find that inspiring inspiring. It's a truth. This crowd holds to be self evident and voice. Life was pretty obviously more complicated than the simple story critics of the Patriot movement call Avoi- a lot of things things sovereign citizen extremist terrorists Nazi mark her says that the actual facts of his life story are being ignored purposely ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's an extremist based on that. He's a terrorist that he deserved to be killed. The story of lavoix split in these two really extreme directions. He's either seen as everything that's right with America for everything that's wrong with America. So which is hello everyone here would have me believe that Lavoix was a hero for group that wants to correct the record about him. They're awfully stingy with information when it comes time to show the movie about his life that's when the organizers of the event takes the stage wjr reminds us their security everywhere in this room and absolutely no recording of these videos copyright and so I might have to call security. I really don't WanNa do that. We do have security here as she says this to. The crowd huddle of militia members settle in the back and then a man with a handgun on his hip nestled in a leather holster embossed with the words we the people leans against the wall near the only to reporters in this room me producer Ryan has we didn't record the movie about Lavoix Finchem but I'm GONNA be honest. You're not really missing anything. Dan Talking is lavoix. We story told through the eyes of the Patriot movement so it's primarily concerned with his life after he went to the Bundy ranch standoff in two thousand fourteen the movie doesn't answer questions about how Lavoix came to believe what he did and how that belief leave compelled him to die. It's a movie about lavoix as a symbol for government overreach because that's what he's become to the Patriot movement. His life story proves the government's tyranny as a rancher. They pushed him so hard that he had no choice but to fight back when he did. They killed him. At least that's the story that mark her and Jeanette finicky are selling with their youtube video documentary. Fortunately I have better sources okay all right so my name is Guy Finicky so I'm the voice younger brother. So one of the reasons we wanted to come talk to you is we just haven't seen a ton of stuff about who lavoix was before. The world came to know him. I guess so we thought it'd be great for you to just tell us about nobody would have the dirt like a little road. The Guy Lives in for Dona Arizona this tiny town on the border with Utah Lots of films of called home for Generations Josh cluff the guy whose house was blown up in Pennock Nevada used to live here too in fact I found a newspaper clipping from voice baptism and saw relative that the last name cluff actually Baptize Lavoie the L._D._S. temple here. I have to say Guy Finicky looks and sounds. So much like boy he's bald and has the same sharp jaw and wire rim glasses. It's a little jarring at first but that's where their similarities seemed to end real Avoi- aspire to the ranching lifestyle guy became a licensed this mental health counselor a therapist by by profession and so this is this is the world leading work in but I am amazed how people create their own own experiences own reality guy tells me that he in Lavoix in their other siblings grew up in the northwestern is western corner of Arizona on the Navajo reservation. Their Dad had a government job working for the Arizona Department of Transportation as a kid. Lavoix was like any big brother if you could imagine the Batman and joker rolled into one character he was my nemesis when I was a kid home he he loved to tease me he did you know but as soon as we left the home home he was my hero. The boys grew up riding horses camping in the mountains and shooting each other with B._B.. Guns he won be cowboy from the fires but as young as a little boy he didn't have any cattle so that was my job. I was livestock. <hes> gave me a hug titan earmarked more than once guy paints a picture of his older brother as a driven hard working person who dominated every room he was in he was confident. Someone guy looked up to he says lavoix. It was the kind of person that wants. He said his mind to something. You wouldn't give up no matter what not started from an early age he he loved to play basketball. I Remember Waking Up in the summers. We had a old asphalt bad the my dad added oilcake from the highways and Rim my dad put up. I'd wake up in here that I can still hear that basketball bounced and the guy says even though Lavoix was only five seven. He gave everything having to being a basketball player after graduation. He went on his L. D. S. mission in South Dakota. He came home and married his first wife woman named Kelly they moved to a suburb outside Portland Oregon where they managed an apartment building thing had their first couple of children and the whole time voice plan was to walk onto a local college basketball team. He'd play racquetball every day. The guy says reality soon hit the void didn't have the money to pay tuition even if he got a spot on the team so eventually gave up on basketball after regretted that decision because he was never able to get a college degree you know and he says it was the first of many times in his life that I learned about. We're lavoix wanted to make something work doc but couldn't no matter how much he wanted it. Including his marriage to Kelly they had four kids and then they ended up getting a divorce and so nine months after his divorce lavoix got married again to a woman named Rachel they yeah two more kids got a divorce. After two years guy says this part of boys life was full of turmoil and shame this a human being okay he likes aid he'd been through two two failed marriages those deeply distressing matter of fact you know our our religious background our culture you know members of the Church of Latter Day saints we have a high value on marriage marriage and family and and he got a divorce he was first divorced in my grandmother's media family a big family and that was a big deal they him according to his brother La- voice ultimate dream was to come back to Fredonia raise a family he wanted to start a ranch to from his twenties to his forties. lavoix bounced all around the West trying to make enough money to start that dream I found addresses for him. In Portland Albuquerque Santa Fe Las Vegas near Flagstaff and all over Utah Saint George Cedar City Provo but every time he had to get successful at he gets sick of living in the city you try back home the when he did when you come back home he just could never get a foothold so they'd come back here and be dirt poor and struggle and eventually they moved back to the city somewhere away guy tells has the story was willing to do anything to make his ranching dream happened when every move away from home he he he do well financially just couldn't stay away from home and he couldn't make it work very well. On the ranch nine hundred ninety two after a second divorce things started to turn around for Lavoix happened when he went to a singles dance at his church Ginette Finnigan told the crowd about it that day at the V._F._W.. and was back in the day when line. Line dancing was in. I don't know if you guys remember lying dancing. Okay Ninety two and I liked line dancing. There's a lot of fun and I can remember being out on the floor and this gorgeous cowboy walked into the room and I can remember him walking along the side wall and then in front of us and he sat up on the stage and he just sat there watching all of us dance. I WANNA dance with him. They did end up dancing and genetic to keep him dancing but he said he'd only do it. If she answered a question he's I don't have any rhythm and he's GonNa tell you if you can tell me how. Many kids have all dances next dance with you. She guests six. She was right eight long story short two weeks later we were married so it was a very short engagement. Suddenly Lavoix Ginette had this big family they had dreamed about between the two of them. They attend kids. It's eventually became therapeutic foster parents which meant they fostered kids with high emotional and behavioral needs guy says it suited lavoix because of his strong personality he was able to control kids that other foster parents couldn't fostering also gave the family more consistent cash and that was a really key turning point in the voice life finally found the way that he could cash little things to get back home and start building history. The family moved to Kane eighteen beds Arizona. It's about a half hour from for Dona Records from twenty eleven show the Bureau of land management granted Lavoie grazing permit from October to May his allotment was near Tuck Up Canyon deep in the Arizona Arizona Desert near the Grand Canyon. It's important to note that lavoix was running cows exclusively on public land. He didn't have any land of his own and by the time he started ranching lavoix was fifty years years old. He's only been doing it for three years. When in twenty fourteen finicky I'm went to the Bundy ranch standoff over in Bunkerville Nevada and that's the other really key turning point and boys life well I was I was watching what he was doing and he was he was becoming more and more vocal about the progression of what do you call the ever increasing power of you know the government at all levels but the federal government was really concerning concerning to him the next summer lavoix went all in on Cliven Bundy's conspiracy theories about the federal government scheming against ranchers to take over their land and he started fantasizing about what he would do if the feds came after him to you gotTa Stop? It's gotTa Stop Be Lamb here I am you won't pick on somebody. Come pick on me my cows out here. You tell me gotta get him off. I'm not take him off. You know you WANNA WANNA play those antiques with other people harass them destroy their lives. Well here. I am you come pick on me. Come on pick on me and I'm not going anywhere but here's the thing up until twenty fifteen lavoix was in good standing with the bill he always paid his bills on time but after meeting cliven Bundy void kind of went from Batman to joker he became obsessed with the end of the world and started getting into political activism in two thousand fifteen he wrote a novel. It's called only by blood and suffering and spoiler alert. It's about a cowboy who dies in a shootout with federal agents. After America collapses. He also decided that year that he needed to make a stand against the bill and it's on this point the Guy Finicky says a lot of people get the story wrong. A lot of people say you know avoid okay was being mistreated by the O._M.. And therefore you know he was a rebellion against them because of their mystery and he would tell you know that's not the case <hes> they treated him quite well. The problem he had was he saw a pattern of picking and choosing who they treated well to they didn't treat well if they wanted to ranch or some other purpose they'd bring all all kinds of heavy handed tactics on you and push you off in June. Twenty fifteen lavoix wrote a letter to the bill and I got a copy of it it says quote. I'm writing you this letter to express my appreciation for the time we've associated together in connection with my grazing on the Arizona Strip has been pleasant association and without conflict but he tells them he's gotTa take a stand quote. This is not about cows and grass US access resources. This is about freedom and defending our constitution in its original intent. Even the beal was confused phone records show. They called him to try to understand what the heck this stand. Dan was all about and they kept finding Vinnicombe. Cattle out in the sweltering desert outside of the permitted grazing season lavoix responded that ranchers and other states were standing up against the government and he was going to stand with them by the end of August Twenty fifteen lavoix severed ties with the beale completely and court documents show the by September he was meeting with Bill Keebler about making a stand on his ranch in case the feds came in so that's four months from being in good standing with the bill to planning to take a stand against them at his ranch. You know so with family were quite concerned when he started drawing the line in San with the bill because I'm like the Avoi- I know you don't like bullies but you're picking a fight with the federal government. They don't lose. They don't lose look how many people you know they've got unlimited amounts of money and technology and power and everything he's like well the wrong void made up his mind and by January twenty sixteen he was all the way up in Oregon at the Mao year occupation guy was worried knowing what's going on just getting media reports. I thought things you're kind of crazy and I thought what in the world when my brother doing I want to talk sense until modestly over the years him the void discuss politics and they didn't always see eye to eye but when he went to Malheur all year he saw that La Voie was exactly where he wanted to be and I left saying no to my brother. Stay the course stick to what you what you know you're doing in a way it was like everything guy I understood about. Lavoie was clear for the very first time he'd spent so long trying and failing to become a rancher and then almost as soon as he'd done it we'd gone to Bunkerville and saw new model what it means to be a cowboy. It wasn't just running your cattle. Putting meals on the table was actively fighting to preserve a way of life carrying guns standing up to the government plotting standoffs it meant becoming cliven bundy whose motto auto had been whatever it takes cliven wasn't that Malheur so lavoix could step into that role. Maybe take it a step further. People may say you can't know things like this but I knew when I said Goodbye Oregon he he was gonna Die After. Don't ask me how I know. I was just standing. There also hit me. He was GonNa die there yeah so when I said goodbye team I really thought it would be the last I saw you had family after after day of his kids told them they all need to get love what was says. It didn't know what direction this was. He knew that there were a bunch of militia Alicia members that were planning to come in there and he wasn't he wasn't able he had no control those people coming in and he did not know whether they were going to push a fight and what was going to happen and he told us kids. You know it seems safe here today. It is gonNA stay say she can't. We just told you that that some pretty personal think for a second about the kind of love guys talking about a love that is so strong you can step aside and let someone get what they want most even if it'll kill them leaving behind daughters and sons foster children a wife a mother brother a ranch hard-fought dream after talking to guy I'm left with another competing narrative not lavoix as a Nazi lavoix as a hero but Lavoix is someone trying to control his on story. His life was full of failures basketball two marriages in ranching but there's no living life without failure seems like lavoix simply. Let it to find him. One Way to look at his death is as a way to wash away those failures simplifies life down to the last six hundred days when he stood for something and died as a martyr in recordings that were made by undercover agents agents embedded in bill keebler militia Finnigan told Keebler he quote wants to be like the guy standing in front of the tank at Tiananmen Square and that if he gets taken out and the causes the poor ranchers widow so he was thinking about how his death would be perceived even before he went to Oregon it makes me wonder if voice dream was never really about being a lone horseman in the desert fighting for way of life but instead it was about figuring. Away to die as a hero before we leave I asked about the ending of La Voice book the Hero Cowboy who dies in a shootout with the cops guys a master's degree in counseling after all so so did he see it as a suicide note story. There was pretty an ending of a cowboy getting to shootout with the federal government and gets killed and then here. That's exactly what happened to Lavoix. What do you make of that? You know it really isn't I mean he you know if you read that book. I mean there's no question that that was the person he wanted had to be. He wants to be a person who had the ability to stand up and make a difference. I'M GONNA go back to Salem back to the Church of finicky representatives of the Patriot movement hard at work making Lavoix into whatever they want him to be. You know what I was reading the voice book he said something in the book that to me just stood out he talked about how we're going to control every aspect of our lives from what we eat to what we drive to what we wear. This is true. After the movie finished. This lady took the stage and started the throwing around all these wild conspiracy theories about how the U._N.. Aka The new world order is using environmentalism to control everyone crowd is loving her ask Ginette and mark her about this why partner the voice message which they say is apolitical with conspiracy theories political rhetoric and they say yeah maybe we should think about who hitches their wagon to lavoix as a martyr but Janette victims wrongful death lawsuit lawsuit has a total deep state vibe to it accusing everyone from former Attorney General Loretta Lynch to Oregon's governor as being a part of the plot to kill Avoi- it's pretty clear lavoix wanted to be a martyr now his wife life is spreading that message so maybe the Patriot movement is getting him right the journey. The movie is taken over the last six months is worth noting it hasn't been shown at libraries or mainstream G._O._P.. Gatherings the media. It's been shown militias anti Muslim groups and prominent conspiracy theorists. We'll voice death is being used to make extremists more extreme and this is largely how this whole conflict has gone for the past past thirty years back to Ruby Ridge and Waco. If you think of those events is when the broader public became aware of the modern anti-government movement you can see this game of tit for tat playing out over decades the feds shot Sammy and Vicki rickie weaver at Ruby Ridge and they raided the branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas and then two years later Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City killing one hundred sixty eight people after waco the Fed stop shooting I and adopted more of a weight amount policy but then Maller lavoix charged a roadblock was killed so the pattern continues and that raises a much bigger question. Where does this go next how many more people will turn toward violence because they can go online and watch the void diet over and over again? Genetic is taken this movie a lot of places including one part of the West. I know really well eastern eastern Washington last summer. She showed it to a separatist religious community near the Canadian border if the message that she wants to get across about La Voie is that he wasn't an extremist weibring the perfect martyr to a place for anti-government violence killings by white supremacists have been happening for more than thirty years. That's next time on Bundy Ville Um. This episode was written by me. Lisa Tilly Peter Fricke right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Dang an anti Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda and a special thanks to David stuck eat and thank you to the Buckskin tavern in Arizona which was kind enough to sell us real beer when the entire city of Connecticut Utah Would Not Bunny Ville is a co production of long rates and Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please help support it. You can do that with any any type of donation bigger small either long rains or O._P._B.. You can also support Bundy Ville leaving us a rating or view wherever you get your podcasts or just by telling your friends to subscribe. There's a ton we.

Robert Lavoix Lavoix Oregon federal government Lavoix Ginette Arizona Cliven Bundy Ginette Finnigan Oregon Bundy ranch Lavoix finchem youtube Utah Baptize Lavoie America Bundy Ville lavoix Bunkerville basketball Malheur
Episode 18 Sophia Sun from Kit Kat Ranch

BunnyRanch Podcast

27:42 min | 1 year ago

Episode 18 Sophia Sun from Kit Kat Ranch

"It's Daddy D if it ain't going down at the bunny ranch it ain't going down at all stolen hello hello listeners and welcome back to another episode of the Bundy Ranch podcast. My name is Alice little and I am illegal. Sex worker at the world famous Moonlite Bunny ranch located in Carson City Nevada. This week I have a very special guest all the way over from the kit. Kat Ranch the lovely effervescent. Sophia's son. Hi guys couples mindedness of the sun and working ranch honesty. Keat undenied December. You know so you like my company working in Keycard. Yes so tell us a little bit about yourself. Oh I I wore for a long time off. Istan choose us at eight. You know so. I'm happy I'm very grateful because I know many people actually come back for me so it's a long time but you know I like a half friend with my customers zone doesn't funeral yeah. No yes. And it's amazing too when you're here long term you end up getting into these amazing relationships with your guests and then you end up connecting again and again in really building just so many memories sounds saucer coming hobby how I can tell the name but I will young guys. Of course. We can't remain repair three times a week. Come to the Church yes good mortgage or whatever very respectful customer records. Rose asked me. Why do you know aw saw no nothing wrong? The problem we need a solution end the moment. No you know angry. All there's no offset God bless everyone. Everyone is different than it's amazing. When you find the right person how the personalities match the tennis say culinary but He always used to say it was like a roulette wheel of ladies and guests. And there's a million combinations nations and you never know who's going to match in some suck. It might surprise you. Could also you know sorry. Because you prairie of documents utilization soon as the personality things after we can eat together coffee SARS meaning you know go down and then even enjoy Outside of that bedroom. Oh my goodness so. What are some of your favorite things to share with your guests when you go out of the ranch? Yeah one of the the first part. I like to talk a little bit too much but then I show you my room. You know I mean I like in my room like every room sometime. I'm thinking oh much better but I don't got bar more confident and private because your Meyer Space I said how energy personal touches your personality Marimba three last week three days. I can have sex with nope they respect for guys come back to MRS of fear no watery You know Eddie massage. You know leader play wishing in copies opening. I'm very okay. Great for you all about. It's all about a juicy. Yeah Oh my gosh. So what are some of your hobbies and interest outside of the ranch on the NECKAR. Winter's coming you know I remember for a long time. Maybe we don't have a car here for later. Tau Now. WHO's gorgeous in winter? I know there are many pro. They are problems in the role for records on CD. We need the tourists. Anyway you know insuring yes and figure to so much of the area relies on tourism. That they're very good about it. Erodes the trick is to fly lie in come to the ranch and then get snowed in Iran. That's that's what you do if you're a smart guy so now I'm snowed in at the Bunny Ranch How terrible I guess I'm just going to have to spend the entire evening alternating between all of the different ranches and having fun? WHOA is me? Yeah Oh my one. Yes only tiny to party took. Oh my gosh yes good. Yeah so obviously as everybody can tell us you have a very distinctive accent where you from. What your background? Okay I wore in Argentina. Site is so I speak you know. Casinos poignon believe I like big cities of course so you know it because all right here because I think if you know the people you know Super Nice ice so yeah anyway you know so. I like fun. eightieth around the only land me but yeah it's alone way. Yeah it is a long long way away. Our amazing them. How old were you when you came over? Why here Oh because because I call it probably but if I lied all drama Queen and now this House so Nice Customer Taught Me Fia you look at card? Why not you know I call now? That's amazing and now Longley guys very fast. It's okay okay three four. It's great and you figure it gives you such a good opportunity to come uh-huh and go spend time in every time we come back your guests are probably like Oh my God. You're finally here so yes so earlier before the show you were telling me a little bit about your interest in swimming. Oh screaming because for me. I'm thinking about my boss. You know so I guess the best for me you know I try all the kinds of poor. IB backs in for a long time. Time in after. But you know my yeah enough now now I like a boxing kickboxing. You know saw student pool of activity like good swimming. All right it gets your body is good for your head and it doesn't put any pressure on your knees your ankles. Yeah Yeah. It's easy gentle resistance. The A home question. The Iran soper took place closed here. But it we'll be back open again in spring and those that are listening you can look forward to an amazing opening weekend pool party could definitely put in your calendars their plan ahead. Because trust me there ain't no pool party. LIKE LINEAR party. Funny Oh my God. I love our partnership in every year's going to hear Right now we're not coming Halloween so better and they do. You have pain for Halloween I e yeah to get it. Are you going to dress up in a pool. NOBODY GONNA wear. Can you tell us or is it a secret until better. See good good thing episode literally comes out tomorrow. L. So for those that are early listeners you potentially will get to come and the MC Sophia in her Halloween Halloween costume. Yeah I like one point after this coming Christmas so neither sexy custom. I'm not curable. Maybe before to leave you know. Yeah it's GonNa be there's GonNa be there's so many so many things to explore. I mean technically. It's like after Halloween alouine. But it's still kind of figure at the Bunny ranch. It's not a holiday. It's a holiday week to week year. Figure like when we do Christmas we do Christmas for like the second half of. Oh my God like we're already getting ready to mark Christmas decorations. You guys like it is not just a holiday. Hey It's a holiday week a month. I mean it's the bunny ranch. Every day is a holiday of you decide to make it one. You wanted to be a word they heck yeah we can make it your unbirthday. Even just saying there is. I don't know I just feel like there's so many different things that people can do you within this space to be creative explorative kind of opened up and try new things and I know talking of Halloween Week sucked a lot. A lot of people have been very interested in role play rope. Oh my God yes yes do you have like a favorite role. I am shifter Chesterson so new new role you know first time for care I e call her for for mall dining short time. So why don't we could find a new of any single yes. Have you ever done this. Luton like the student teacher with the Little Gonna a stay Mama. KOMO's no modern mother. Step mother stepmother mother a staff me and the renew GRANOLA stepmother. No I don't care that's all that's not like that. It's a really creative Ed. To explore something taboo in a very safe space because like student teacher mother daughter stepmother dot any sort of play along along those lines. It's fantasy but that's the whole thing. Is that guys. This is a fantasy environment. Didn't you get to create a really amazing experience experience like that and I think it just. It's really healthy. To explore your kings vetting role play interests. It's normal like there's nothing weird about being kinky. There's nothing weird about having like. Oh I have this sucks interest. Cool sodas literally every very one like I don't know do you have like something. You're kind of into personally for replay or role play a or like bedia. So sometimes come and I'm single so leaving by her boyfriend anyway but right now but some they put the pictures. Yeah Trey said okay you know. What are you putting in computer? Tries it. He said the browser. We're on the Internet but like getting take pictures that is really really hot and it gives you like a mental memory to go back to like. I think it's funding is the Polaroid Camera. Because then you have it like right there in your hands. I like that at the instant picture. That's really fun Personally God I duNNo. I used to teach them for years so like I'm into flogger I'm into all sorts of different crazy things like if you WANNA get tied up. I'm just saying I would probably enjoy tying. Can you up your with kinked. Are you more dominant. Are you more submissive or you not these many inclusive inclusive role is kind of like breath. Play choking the and of course keeping in mind here at the ranch that such activities are always done in a matter later. That's very very safe. No one's actually choking each other but she you get that feeling you get that look that image and that's excuse me hot. It's a father role you know. I the the the guy very pink. Okay this idea idea for novel you Funny Funny Boola Yeah Produce. Okay yeah no I mean we always please save. Here's safe sane. Consensual is pretty much the way to go here at the ranch. We generally speaking. Don't do risk aware activities. We try to avoid avoid risk at all costs. See figure we're not going to be engaging in. Any sort of edgy play. But more sensual sensuous type type experiences better generally far more safe and your experience in this kind of environment. It's it's a really good good place to come and learn like even even if you've never had sex before like do you do you work with virgins I wo- version. Yeah tell me about it. It's so funny I remember two guys you know I read the passage. Of of course they grow. You know this I know you can go division. Okay me too military one zero one for me but only Not Talk to guy. You're not going to try to talk wireless not talking nothing party. All all part of this is my sixth. Yeah yeah funny Only open during the minute normal. Sure it's great. I mean people walk in here like slouching and I feel like they come out like floating on there and they're like I'm telling you guys amazing. What an orgasm fearing like if you're listening and you're like oh I haven't done that in a while? What why are you not here already like seriously? You're listening to the show. Oh come visit the ranch come have fun like it's it's one of those things that I feel like. Many people are afraid to take that first step in like get get on the website make an appointment email the girl and be like okay. I'm GONNA do it. I feel like there's a lot of nerves like miss only for money now. So you know it's like oh my gosh girl. She liked me beginning to get along. Okay in given even that you've done this a long time. What tips do you have for guys when they come in like? What things do you tell them to get ready for or how to prepare after their visit was too? Yeah Anyway. Joking is either to go party. You Know Menachem so the Nimba befitting so it can be helpful sometimes about what you want to do over email go you so you can plan ahead like okay. This is going to be two girls. Let me get another girl or hey. This is something where we want a girl to spot the experience I I felt. Where'd you know it's just a no say three months ago? This is speech only ten community guys like come on mature over the forty saw the other young guys they always So I got it for free. Not consider him but I know many people the you know the The other Public California you know but I don't know this sounds fantastic. I got him many times. Yes yeah young now. It's funny though the whole thing. Only young homeboy. We me I like the second time so I like all ago. Will you and me okay. I call other the lady so we party very nice. They got that fell asleep. Yeah Johnny I find nine people do one of two things. I do like float out there. Like our guys. It's NAPTIME. Yeah Oh yeah Oh. I've had a few people who like like afterwards. They're like can I just. I don't WANNA get up. I just want to spend the night. I don't WANNA move. I'm like hey I feel it's you you. I'm sometimes I'm like. Wow that was hot. I don't WanNA get up yet. Can we dislike chill for if even in some just like high like it's fun enjoy we it too. And that's that's the one thing that I think. Some people don't understand about this so we have fun to say. Okay I sometimes I can find you know more people. Yes many times in the other. No why someone coming. I like to leave you know. Sometimes they need space. Ace maybe not lonely with up then talking again so I knew before you know. We're position additional guys now. I'm like a push goal. You know no no the AH every single lady is different and that's and that's important because because it gives everyone a chance I'm nobody talkative. Short Time Amini pay me. You know so you don't would you to party in the bar for not vulgar. You know control yes. Maybe on all you know share shade and Got Back Up. Doc You know if you get like let lamb. I figure often times guys don't realize this but it's actually very respectful if you're having a conversation with the lady after a few minutes to be respectful of time and if you're interested then move the station privately. I call it a one friend leaving in Virginia City. I know for a long time and blow ranch awesome. Thank you very drunk Really that deep and leave Sunday say no all they can do nothing okay. I gave Saturday landowner. Humidity is only about home. I don't Know Yeah Well K next is you know but nice guy you know We organised you know so for immune applauds okay. You know you'll even with senior. CD's yet not gotten a chance to go and explore. Virginia the city only walking but never lying the winter winter rhum okay okay. Somebody take her stop. I used to go to the lake on lake. Yeah I li- Bay. Hey up by Tahoe. Oh yes so. There's so many fun things to do and try out and talking of trying things. I thought it would be fun to. Have you teach us a little bit of sexy Spanish. Oh Okay Yeah yes I love him. uh-huh action actually. Sometimes I feel very comfortable. Are you serious you know your accent. Only uh-huh sex love by highly rolling with the axiom of the customer so I ne- Repeat. Yeah Yeah but it's okay you know. So yes so in terms of like sexy Spanish phrases. What kinds Of what kind of our they're sexy. Didn't eleanor fix the six okay so like fixing okay so like how would you say I want you right now. Okay Asia are you. Oh Yeah you can win enough centers like I want you sexually. I Want I want to have sex with the Komo Kito stuck on Theo out. Yeah okay one wartime slower okay. GAYDOS DOT COM Daego out. I mean come right now out on meet more I want right now. No that's hot. Is there like a short version of. Let's fuck yeah like fuck you you know like how would you say. Let's fuck. We are like one on for for my culture not normal so far you say you like non stay together more romantic romantic and what is fuck out of it uniquely. Not No no no very conservative. Very polite ED Open Americans. We pretty much balls on the table literally. Just it's like have you been to this country. We have a restaurant. You guys named twin peaks. And that's that's true referring to boobs like this is America. We have no shame go so we have a hooters for like we we just our culture. It's not it's not romantic. I like. It's not sexy so like what's something simple and easy. We like I love you. Should they should take care. I love you too AMMO. Eleven years. It'll allow you to kill. ooh But very very deep yes. I lost that though. And it's just it's simple. Oh it's sexy like that could be a fun thing for everyone to practice leaning in and being like ooh like yeah. Tm Oh is Tamil simulate. Talia I don't speak Italian or Spanish Italian I tell you I can talk. Tell Berna speak. Obviously Portugal against people talk corporate. Nope it's similar. It has a lot of French. Fringe you that easy you know but talk in just different. Yeah Oh the French accent is very different no I. Can't I know Bunder I'm no I mean maybe I was born in Ireland but I have lived in the state since I was five years old. I am irish-american but I've lived career so like I don't really I mean I only have like a very small accent if I go home and then like I'm back in Ireland for like two or three weeks then I'll come back at me like top at the day but like yeah otherwise not so much like you know generic American so I think your accent accent super super mutant sexy you gotTa Linemen. How telling? Yeah Yeah Okay. So it's it's a turn on for share like heavier guests ever aspect. Ooh I got one time. I remember I three period. It took a long time. Okay and which senior is country countries. They guys that I saw. I can understand you electric research. That's cool yet ED. But we finally you know Fung Someday Cup in the Oxen Dino. Yeah so and that's okay but again for many people it ends up being a turn on which is just so so nice. It's it's fun too. I feel like to be with folks from different countries entries for some guys. That's even like a Kinky conquest like I'm going to be with someone from Russia I'm going to be with someone from South America. I'm going to bring someone someone from Argentina I'm going to be with someone from Ireland and it's kind of cool because you can kind of do like the tour of the world here like you figure. We have cake. How asaki lucky who's from Japan Angelina Monroe French? I'm Irish Argentinian. Like who else do we have. I think commissions from Thailand Alien. Oh yes we have so many leaf you. You're right. You know she goes to. She goes to Thailand all the time. But she's she's from the Philippines. God we have a lot of different. Oh we have imaging steal from Sagebrush. She's from New Zealand like Obama. Bram we have all the continents my dude like did we. I think we hit all the continents. We need someone from Antarctica. Like if you're from I'm an article and you WANNA be a buddy buddy like come complete our like world conquest tour. I kind of feel like that should be like somebody should do that. Let somebody should come to the bunny ranch be like yeah. I'm going to have sex with somebody from every single continent. I'M GONNA literally make my way around the world. The idea like I'm from Ireland Argentina. We've got friends we've got Japan like guys we can do this. We should make does happen. I think that would be the world ranch. So how do people get a hold of you if they want to spend time with with you. Call me in the office so instead of I two four six nine nine seven five yes he got a soul or email but I like it more called me. You know it's easier attack. The texting in the email have fixed. You know

Bunny ranch Ireland Argentina Moonlite Bunny ranch Iran Kat Ranch Bundy Ranch Japan Carson City Nevada Sophia IB Thailand Alice Rose KOMO South America Eddie
A Bunny Ears Very Special Christmas Minisode

Bunny Ears

09:33 min | 1 year ago

A Bunny Ears Very Special Christmas Minisode

"Me Gag segment. You turn the brand the bull die. Kill me Welcome to a very special edition of the bunny ears podcast. Merry Christmas so What I did last night was a little mad libs with everybody on my twitter account called? Mac libs ah but yes I asked you guys. For Nouns Verbs Adjectives adverbs etc.. And what we did was we mash them all together and we did the night before Christmas with all of your suggestions Russians so I am actually. I have not read this thing before. So you guys are going to hear it live on this very special edition of the bunny ears. PODCAST CAST and yeah without further. Ado We like this without further Ado Angler. Read the night before Christmas. With all of your suggestions I I hope I don't mess this up. Okay here. We go was the night before Christmas when all through the love shack. Not a creature was stirring during not even a fuck weasel. The come buckets were hung by the chimney with care hopes to Devon Saleh. Soon would be there so. The children were nestled all snug in their beds will visions of Gary Busey danced in their heads and Mama in her dirty Britches in I am a jockstrap had just settled our brains for a long winter shat when out on the lawn there arose such a but stuff I sprang from my bed. She was in my poop away to the window. I fool a potato salad. Tori the shutters and threw balls the moon on the breast of the new fallen mayonnaise gave the luster of cocaine to the objects below. What did my wandering? Wieners did appear a miniature sleigh and eight tiny fuck weasels just to fuck with a little old driver so quickly and quick. I knew in a moment. It must be John Stamos. More rapid than a planet pussies Lucy's his courses they came and he whistled and shouted and called them by name. Now bano now Travolta. Now Ron Jeremy and peschici Ashi on McCulloch on Liz. Oh undock under in Mifflin Lane. So the top of the swing. The top of the Fuck Nook no masturbate away mastered away masturbate away all as leave before the wild hurricane splashed so when they meet with the obstacle mount to the fuck balls so up the house top the courses they flew with the he moved full of emotions in Saint Nicholas cage to and then in a twinkling. I heard on the roof. The coming in swallowing of each little hoof drew my head and was turning around down the chimney. He rose McGowan came with a goat. She was dressed all all in banana hammocks from her head to her. Dick and her clothes were all tarnished with ashes and my wife's boyfriend abundant Dora's she she had flung on his back and she looked like a peddler just opening her butt cheeks his eyes how they twinkled his dimples also merry his cheeks relig roses his nose like a cock shaped birthday cake. His little mouth was drawn up like a bow. The beard on his Chin was white as a dental trump rally. The stump of a vape pen. He held tightness teeth. And the darkness openess encircled his head like a wreath. He had a broad face. And it'll round Cochrane. That shook when he laughed like a bowl full of more bowls. He was fertile in moist. A Right Jolly Old Elf l.. Laughed when I saw him. In spite of the Metoo Movement a wink of his eye and twist of his head soon gave me to know that had nothing in my but he spoke at a word but went straight into his work and filled all the condoms then turned with a jerk and links finger aside of his nose and giving snort up the chimney he rose. He sprang to his Volkswagen to his team. gave a whistle and away they all flew like the down of a thistle. AW SPLEEN EAR. He drove out of sight. Fuck you to all any my balls. Goodnight Merry Christmas Miss. y'All thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the new year right piece. mm-hmm the what the take five three nine four six to crippling coca media l. Just walk extra video about having coca manian being obsessed with MacAulay Culkin and I just wanted to call and check officials actually real remember. It was state. But I guess it's real so Yeah really really related to that. Video is married. I resonated with My childhood obsession with MacAulay. Culkin covered from but USC oddly obsessed with math when I was kid and Yeah thankfully I recovered and I have now re we integrated myself into normal society. Although I still know much we can lower still no Too much about about MacAulay culkin. Random Facts Kinda Kinda freaks. My friends out sometimes but I've mostly recovered so Thank thank you for. Raising awareness about this condition by athletes can bomb in phantoms. Yo like what you did you little jerk. My son is suffering from cocoa mania. Every time he gets in trouble he wants to leave. He's trying to so in the front yard so he can go to New York. Can you talking out is it crazy tape here avalon. I'm totally stolen wrestling. Gimmick when are you going to kick things Hello this is why and and I just wanted to say that. I had no idea how to talk. I had no idea any of this and I listened to the little episode and Lucky me. I had had just gotten done watching doll face. So you're talking about your lady friend and how she's mattress and where he's gone and all of this and I'm Mike hold up. Is it penicillin and lonely. Hold there's precious Brenda at the end of the episode talking about Liz. Oh and and I just got to say I love that so much. I'm so happy that y'all have this cute together sounds great and Yeah but you I love you. I got coca mania. My birthday backup. Find Me Gag. Take me to the Bundy ranch. Oh my God let's.

Culkin Liz twitter Ado Angler rose McGowan Gary Busey John Stamos Devon Saleh Wieners Mifflin Lane Ron Jeremy Travolta penicillin Lucy Tori Bundy ranch Metoo Movement Chin Cochrane
CS 295: Feds Is Watching

Champagne Sharks

1:01:02 hr | 10 months ago

CS 295: Feds Is Watching

"Watching. Taxing. I'm just an. Average. I. Ride. My Own and. I always. Hey what's going on champagne sharks? We have a youtube channel. The Youtube Channel is YouTube dot com forward slash champagne sharks very easily remember or just go to YouTube dot com and search champagne sharks. You'll see the challenge to see our logo is not hard to find and we have merchandise. Now the merchandise is pretty cool. Every willing to use the money that we from the merchandise to. Pursue some of our other goals for the podcast. It's tentative right now but we're trying to do a podcast network where we're trying to do is make a money stream to help make that a reality and all this stuff helps in respect to that creating equipment, buying service base all this stuff. So if you want more content, not just from us, but from other people all this stuff. Really helps what we're hoping is to get some black women, some black queer voices, and some other black men as well and try to create things that are kind of in the spirit of the show but don't quite just reproduce the worldview because I think that'd be kind of boring for everybody you know things that similar and spirit, but also different enough to justify their existence. So all that. Helps so good or red bubble DOT COM for the merchandise store and Search T. busy put in that search term T., V. I L Z E T bills. E. T. B. I l. z. i. e.. So quick summation it's YouTube dot com forward slash champagne sharks for the youtube channel and just watch the videos comment lake subscribe and share definitely share and also red bubble. Dot. com search. T. T B, L. Z I e you'll see three designs. East design has own line of products under it. So Yeah Red Bubble, DOT COM search T. bills -I and check out all three designs and the products underneath them. You'll see t shirts, hoodies, tablet, and smartphone cases as well as pins stickers, covert mass, which would make no profit on the Cova mask we sell at costs because we don't think it's right to make a profit off a pandemic and pins and a bunch of. Other cool products the mugs are beautiful check out the mugs. Especially you especially love the monks so check all that stuff out you like it. So without further ADO, here's the episode you really GonNa Enjoy interesting topic and also reach out to was a champion Sharks Jim Mail Dot Com if you have any questions or feedback or interested in the PODCAST network, Roy's interested in new voices. Alright. Thanks so much talk to you soon I, welcome welcome another episode of Champagne Sharks this is Kenny. Here Mario was one all be smart. You can catch me on twitter at MD seventy nine. I. No, I've been. Out of commission lately with you know things calm down here. You'll see here more of me soon as I get my bearings right there those a lot going on. With pin damage and corona and all that stuff. So man, I've been getting a lot of hours at work and things that you know just man by the time I get home. Drain. So I can dig that man especially in the summertime you know as hot as hell man. And I'm on you guys can find me on twitter at Lazarus lives X. Three. Most of UCS streaming on youtube a lot of we we probably stream more than we do record the podcast but we all over the place lately because of the pandemic eating, there's a lot going on but you guys can subscribe. You can subscribe to. Youtube page you go to champagne sharks youtube page. You can subscribe. Scripted a patriot. You can find some patriot. Champagne sharks become a patron for five dollars less than a blunt. So. You can become a patron in can find t t t is on T. Ricky Ross on twitter and also the champagne sharks twitter page. You can follow us on pace starts a podcast on twitter. So yeah, and what is tell you really mean we really appreciate pensions. We appreciate all of you that that go we appreciate all of our listeners support. We you know. When never special start outside all of our patients man because you know I know it's a difficult times for a lot of people who financially you know now they got this thing where they're talking about there's a coin shortage. So they don't WanNa you saw today and my local store man I was begging rated by coffee and seven eleven and. Exact change only or yeah. I'm. What they say what the problem was with the coins I forgot what it was, but the coins are out there they just can't find him or some shit. That's such a twenty twenty. Pandemic Racial. Alan dimes are gonNA remember they were going to get rid of pennies years ago they to get rid of the penny but they didn't, and then they started making those new quarters, those new dimes and new Nichols and stuff. So I duNno, it's crazy by. Coin shortage out. You walk down the street at any American city you can come up with a dollar. Yeah Nielsen. But anyway if I but we. We appreciate you guys hanging in there even though you know some of us, the financial French may be coming on US and. We just preach guys breaking that five dollars a month. Especially the people that the newspapers the day one subscribers in especially the the youtube people on Youtube man like since we we've been streaming on Youtube, we've got a lot of interactions through periscope twitch due to we're going to be able to see us on facebook live soon, get together, and also you'll be seen in a lot of Vita Star. She's new platform. So I was one appreciate everybody for welcome in her and making her feel comfortable. You know what I mean this big Mike passed away recipes just keep pushing for all the people that's been riding with from the since day one when he was on a different up what was the name of the platform? Remember went to Hill that. They were so raggedy. Whatever that other platform was? An android phone and we'll sound like darth. Vader. Must respect everybody. That's been supporters man. We appreciate you guys in. We can do like when this is all over we meet up and do a live show. That's the goal. In California because I go New York. On out there. Yeah. But you mean Mario was talking off the air in something. You know we wanted to address this whole idea of quote unquote the feds what's going on with you live I'm here in. PORTLAND. So. I get offended sometimes people who have these assumptions about what's going on in Portland when it comes to these federal police officers that are here, and there's a lot of things going on when it comes to the federal government right now and how the infiltrating groups gangs, all kinds of going on right now. You must be you want to speak on Mario well first of all, let's let's let's keep Kinney and prayer because you know at any given moment Kenny can be of deductive and west of the unmarked car. If we don't want that to happen, you know what I'm saying I can is very active. He gets outside and business thing on my bike Leila's by with with with taking safety precaution with his mask and all that those who don't want Kenny they swooped in on mark. Vehicle. TAKE IT TO AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION In the woods somewhere, right? Exactly. No was reporting now some of the stuff. Going with better with the fans particularly in your in your area, your neck of the woods Portland in in the in the northwest period. Extends all. Stems from Donald Trump, telling William bar to get more active in you know unleash the fans on the people right and so you saw what happened they came with a heavy hand up there in Portland and Seattle, and now we're getting reports of going into other parts of the country to hear some stuff happening in. Chicago we I stuff stuff maybe happening in New York and so it seems that they have a strategy that they're trying to follow and. So far. I gotta give it to Portland. I've talked about this the other day off the Air I'll say man, I tell you what you can say whatever you want about four the man. But you know soon as those fair star cracking down, they didn't bow and they came back out stronger in. It got so bad was like challenge accepted. The protest went to the mayor's house I'll wear it I didn't even hear about that protest and went to the mayor's house the Mayor March with the people and he tear gas. I did hear something about that. Yeah. I. Did hear something about that. Yeah. In the governor the Governor Kate. Brown. Now, she's stepping up saying that the organ police will not even the Portland police. The state police are GONNA be protecting the protesters. So That's why twenty the you know with a chance to see cop on cop violence. Oh. Okay. So that's what bad was. Okay. Till the state, the Oregon State police are protecting protesters near the courthouse downtown and near the federal building. Downtown. And those federal, those federal police officers are outnumbered. So let me ask a little. Let me ask you some of the layout of downtown Portland because this is what this is one of the things as fusing from what I understand. They only have so much authority to work down there as far as talking about the federal agents. Yeah. They're they're Michigan is supposed to protect the federal buildings. Staff. Is that where the majority of the protests happening or or the federal building? This is how small downtown. Seattle Houston downtown Seattle downtown Seattle Looks Damn near identical to downtown. Portland is just downtown Seattle is five times bigger. So downtown Portland you have pyner square you have the federal building and literally two blocks over you have the Oregon courthouse. So the protesters are down there and both places there in the end the Police Department of Justice Center across the street from the courthouse so you have protesters at the police station you have protesters. At the Justice Center and have protests at the federal building. Now, this is what people understand. The federal police have already been here because they protect the federal building. So this is not anything new about federal police being here and they've always been here. You know what I mean is just that they brought in extra ones from different places to I guess enforce they're going they're going places that aren't the federal building you know what I'm. Saying their front of the police station and the different places, and what happened is they started hurting people they started hitting people and people's fighting back. The only things I thought I was that was weird as lobbies federal police officers, dues I understand that I was like, why did you do so little? You know what I'm saying like are they federal police? Are they cops from another jurisdiction in another state just sent over here because it? was like many bills they was they was beating people you know they do they do a lot what they always do they pick on the weak people. So you a weak person like I've I've seen a lot of videos now heard stories from people here in town about certain people that were walking by themselves and the federal jumped out the van just snatch them up, beat him up and threw him out the van down the street. Bam, Okay Yeah, you know what I'm saying or they shooting they shoot the rubber bullet guns at people and I guess in the rubber bullet gun, there's a there's levels to it. You know what I mean like you don't have to shoot at the highest level, but that's what they've been doing and they take chunks of people's foreheads shit. Up there is where the guy was shot the hand with a tear gas canister. Lost the damn thing inside of the Guy Skull. So it's been, it's been wild with that in the protest. Trying to explain to people in twitter's like man, you can't be surprised by any of this because there's been going on in Portland for twenty years when it comes to protest and I mean the WTO protests that happened that was in two, thousand, eight, I think that was crazy. Actually got stuck downtown you're talking about the whole. What was it called? I'm having baby Te'o is WTO was what was the name of? The movement behind those that was. Occupied by. Now it was crazy in Portland and in Seattle so. Brent. You know protests and in Portland is like peanut butter and jelly like. As as Mother's milk, Greg. Yes. So now there's also been some confusion about which agencies are specifically there. You know you hear offer the US marshals there her department of Homeland Security Ain't. And stuff. Yeah. Isis their yeah. Customs enforcement all this type of stuff and. So the confused, I guess people when they take these people away they don't know where they're going and then when they get there, they're kind of just let people go. They'll ask him questions. And then they let bill or whatever. So it's kind of like what the Hell is purposive. When downtown Portland you see. Department homeland, security trucks all the time. They've always been here. This is the thing about all these different agencies they've always been here. They came here after the Patriot Act Rumsfeld and all those John Ashcroft and all of them they're the ones that went to wants the Patriot Act came in they started beefing up security at the airports and things like that. So you got a lot more customs agents department of Homeland Security now the problem is these people aren't they're not trained police so that they can. End Up in a bad situations but they've always been here when you get anywhere near the courthouse downtown, you're GonNa see Department of Homeland Security now I don't I didn't see any ice officers in like that, and this is the crazy thing. Is that the neighborhood where I should be you don't ever see ice over there I'm not GonNa say when neighborhood it is but the neighborhood where I should be never see them over there. For is to be downtown. I wonder what they was gonNA do. Because this majority white people down there straight up. The majority white people downtown. That's how it usually goes in Portland where the protests will initially start where's everybody down there. Then after a while everybody else is like, okay you're going too far. The demographics for those protests is a really We I. Mean Black Portland is. This is this is the crazy thing about Portland is a lot like Seattle. There are black people here, but it's like herding cats to find them all. Because Gypsum vacation destroy North North and northeast. Portland so bad that black people are literally just sprawled out everywhere you giving him wherever you can fit in or you laughed. So I think forty five percent of the population of left Portland in the last twenty five years. Yeah. I mean there was a point in time in north northeast or them where you can go all day and don't see know why people. But. That was in one, thousand, nine, hundred, five you know what? I'm saying Oh, the neighborhood that I grew up in was all black. It's literally the only black people in that neighborhood is my pops as it. You know what I'm saying is bad and even some of the white people that I remember when I was growing up even they don't even like. They they don't even like the guy a guy man is doing Mr Jim. He'd been living in my grandmother's neighborhood since nineteen seventy one. And he can't even he and he's a Republican is focused public in Rhode. Stand white people. White People neighborhood and you know what grandmother passed. Eleven he was at the funeral and that he was like, yeah, I guess the neighborhood is changing I'm like you think right you know what I'm saying. So Portland is a weird place because the demographics change. So rapidly you know people are still talking about justification in San Francisco in Brooklyn and places like that. It's over here done. It's a done deal. DAMN THIRD GENERATION Defies over there right. So yeah, you know what I'm saying. So but as far as the police you know even you know you even have a police officers that are like confused as to what they should be doing. because. They don't know how to protect the federal police and they're not used to protect citizen. So they don't know what the hell to do you know. So the governor stepping up she's you know she's gotTa give Governor Kate Brown some respect because she not only has that on hand but she got this damn pandemic trying to open up schools. We're going district here. And I just got an email saying that we're not there ain't nobody going to be no school buildings until November. Going to be all long distance learning from September second all the way to November. Yeah that's that's a whole. Yeah Yeah we just They're talking about doing everything online down here as well, and so you don't be a long summer my kids they're getting antsy they ready to go back to school and you know my son is his senior year man so. Yeah. seventeen-year-old Mattis's Senior Year Swan Song Yeah Damn I ain't GonNa get the dependent man I'm like hey. Health I you gotTa keep that in perspective and everything in perspective, but it's hard for kids to kind of You know see that he wanted to live his life man mean it was hard for me. I got a sixteen year old daughter I can't keep her in the house is much like There's only so much. You can do. You know what I'm saying with what are people doing though that's what I'm. Like. Well you know kids kids will find. Some. Kids will find something to do. Summer but grownups meticulous home. Right. Doing shy doing shit but we're getting read ma'am. I haven't been able to deal with them. We of started going out a little bit when they cut open enough things again, a little bit restaurants there's like that but you know they seem like say closed it back down as soon as they open it up man. The down down? In California. Now telling my boy he lives down there now and he was kind of tripping on how they shut it down and he was a man what's it like up there back home in Portland I said well, you remember Y'all got more kids than we have entire population here. You don't eight million people in the state of Oregon. I don't know what the population is in California but I'm sure three three or four times that. Shit is probably about seven million Los. Angeles. Young more kids y'all got to worry about kids. It's going to school. But what are these protests and stuff going on in in the Federal Police is interested. What's going to be interesting is how you know when you go to certain cities, how much are people willing to take out I? Mean we saw I saw video today with that one do an. Twelve million to twelve, million, four, forty, seven, thousand Los Angeles. Just La. My Lord that we only got eight million people here period in the whole state. But that's also why it's been. So easily easily easy to manage this pandemic here you know when you go into a store in Portland man, you ain't nobody without a Moscow. Just. As they're gonNA look at you like crazy you stance and we only we only have we average about three hundred people positive day tours and other places. They got twelve, hundred, fifteen, hundred all that kind of stuff. So but Ammon Bundy, you remember him from the Bundy Rancher Cliven Bundy kid rock eminem Bundy made a video today talking about defending the police he said he was going to go out march with black lives matter. Yeah. I heard about that I heard about that and There's a lot of mixed reaction to that would. Supremacist which is all of his fans flipped out bid they bid. Flipping. Out You know always the same excuse. Oh, come to Minneapolis I'll show you you don't even live there. Right? Always haven't you seen dot dot dot city he's. With his his. Thing about. Government overreach on this kind of stuff you know what I'm saying so. I. Respect. If he's if he's genuine with it yeah. I'm not fucking with him but no, no, no I I could definitely He's more consistent than a lot of these other conservatives are because a lot of these people are just loving the fact that the fans are going in there and then I'm like well Dan. What about Bundy ranch? Patriots. You're gonNA take our guns and all this other bullshit I'm talking about now all of a sudden you don't not dripping off net. It's not a big deal now. A splice together. It was on the daily show they spliced together a clip of. All these Fox News contributors and hosts talking about how horrible? How good that the fans are going into Fort Lyndon Seattle, and they taking people out of their this that and the third then they. Gathered with of the exact same people in two thousand fourteen. About the Bundy ranch situation that they will not government overreach the fans to get out of their. Guns and tailoring American people. This is unacceptable. You know what I mean it was his outright. They were they were tripping about when they were here in Oregon. That fish and wildlife that federal way forget about. It was literally a standoff. Right some people got killed up there. killed. So but they what were they saying? There's too much government too much too much government too much government government overreach I told somebody today I said you know when it comes to these people you. Re listened for the code words. Black lives matters a coworker nigger. and. If you white supporting black lives matter that means you're nigger lover. When they call you live your nigger lover. You know what? I'm saying you get that through your head you'll understand everything. Easily. Man. Yeah you still video with your man in Arkansas. Video Yeah, man. Standing there with nine that's it. He didn't say nothing people whose this. Business and they were pulling up you've ever be gone. I'll be back in about fifteen minutes you've been asked. About to say the wonders when I get back here, you not be here. Yeah. And no way you know why they're comfortable saying because law enforcement not protect them. You know long-form is not going if law enforcement protected the citizens, the way they're supposed to, they wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. I know but they know that the law enforcement has their bags. So you know it's IT'S A. It's crazy because. You Know Herman Cain died been reading about that. You know McCain was one of those for nobody for everybody that doesn't remember Herman Herman Cain was the CEO Godfather Pizza which I've never had got the piece but I never heard anything good about it Dafa left here when I was a kid he's. Not even here we barely got Ph rose here. He was CEO Godfather Pizza and he was one of the main people that was going to the trump rally talking about not wearing a mask and we tired of this we put up with it. He came up with covert nineteen and passed away. Yeah. Man in one of the One of his little acolytes says up real slick on on twitter about that on twitter or facebook one of the social media platforms and she says, you got all these Democrats and liberals in celebrities. Cold lead in vain nine dying. Chained is this is not fair. Theft. Newest conspiracy. Everything is the the last in the Spot that we're dying wait a minute. What nobody that voted Democrat die from covid nineteen his. All right. What about all the people dying in California right man? Real. Up here. You know what I'm saying we got about nine hundred people died so far. It's just crazy man it's crazy. I got a partner that works at a grocery store and somebody at the grocery store came up with and he was tripping because they wouldn't tell them who it was and I said when it came. The violate HIP and they'll get sued but I understand what you're saying you know what I mean because I thought but I told him I said d'ombre this how much of this shit is affecting your brain as compared to affecting your immediate community When you go when you go home, do you know anybody your neighbor that hasn't he said no as there. So you know more people that's on TV. And in the media that has it or had it or know something about it then people that live in your own neighborhood. You. Can't let it get to you like that man because I'm GonNa tell you right now to people that are gonNA make a Lotta money, the doctors, and the therapists I'll the therapist is going to have a top hat and a monocle on like the monopoly man. There's a lot of people finding out. They need their man this Shit Cova should his trip people out. Are Losing by, but it's funny because you starting to see a lot of things and you really find out who people are and oh. Yes. Amazing things behold. The reckless people. Girl blew herself. Near, blew herself up, trying to standard do car on fire. And Bluer into the car. Would you even see people, young people and I told, my daughters I get it. Man You believe that you're invincible. I remember what it was like being sixteen I thought I was invincible too. And I told her I said, but don't get it twisted. I said there's a girl in Atlanta that that party as soon as they opened up the state of Georgia of she threw a party and she swear up and down she was she was going cancel the party, but she didn't because so many people was common but instead she wasn't gonna go but she went anyway it was there for about five ten minutes came up with Kobe. You know what? I'm saying she said she went inside the Party and there was people on the hookah straws and. Other oh yeah. Right. On the hookah. Holiday. Hookah straws man. But something I wanted to talk about man because you know a lot of people this trend going on with the brother Grand Master Jay, and now they're saying they think he's the Fed, he's the he's the he's an agent. He's the feds in all because he did a video the other day about guess he had his m sixteen and he was showing how he banged on the ground in the chamber kind of moves like a innocent fire you like gun go off and it was a lot of people tell me I was in the Marines I never even heard that I never been in the military and I've heard of it right? Discharge there's two types of discharges. There's either see me a negligent discharge or an accidental discharge an accidental discharge. It could be you know drafted and it wasn't a draft group weapon Grad, discharges bike. Or something like that or eat Dada gun was unloaded and you know something happened around discharge a negligent discharges. You've got your finger on the trigger. You ruined the shipment playing around on your phone or something accidentally squeezed the trigger. Not. Around on. Right. So that's one you can actually be charged with a crime for you know what I'm saying. Really if you want to for for for accidental discharges, they have them all the time, the military, the army they have in the marines they have home every branch of the military has them. I think I was reading somewhere where they had a thing to tanks fired at each other on. Wow. Yeah. So For someone to sit there and and and make a big deal out of the accidental discharge that just goes to show to me that number one. They just look into troll. Any little thing happens anyway because they don't like what's going on with that movement into, they don't have very extensive training USA firearms at all. Negligent, excuse me accidental discharges happened all the time they have at gun ranges. You saw that one situation where the guy was the. Little girl how to shoot. And then she ended up killing the guy because he was helping her to fire fully automatic weapon. No. Didn't. You know she couldn't get control eleven and bit went off and he doesn't get hit and by you know what I'm saying stuff like that half its bandage, it's Going on youtube and just type accidental discharge. Thousands of videos pop up with people at gun ranges people, military exercises, whatever. Is a normal part of unfortunately unfortunately right you know what I'm saying and this thing then there's no one guy seriously hurt. In the scenario at the hands what I heard was actually they explained by this. They, it was actually somebody who passed out due to heat exhaustion. Yes. Because it was damn near one hundred degrees in in Louisville. and. So they had been standing out for a few hours or what have you know what in the area where they staged at and then die feel woozy he passed out in the he handed his wife, his weapon or as bureau whoever was with him had her the weapon and she didn't she wasn't the one who was fully trained on with do is kind of like an abrupt hand for passed out. She ended up dropping the thing and it went on went off. So, you know if that's the case. In Oh shit happens. The trolls were were. All man and that was. Says more about them than it says about anything half. and. For those don't know grandmaster is a brother that started a militia called the NFC w believes go ain't. fucking around. Yeah. Not fucking around. I love that name here. Bam's. Dearly. But this topic of somebody is quote unquote the feds someone is an agent is starting to become so rampant. Role and historically, the Black Panther party is a perfect example of when somebody is the feds you know when the feds ones the one thing about the federal government will just said, instead say the fans 'cause you know Nigga call police. Name that couldn't be further from this week but the federal government when the federal government is investigating. There's GONNA be consequences and repercussions can lead to one of two things imprisonment or death. ooh. It isn't going to be some they're gonNA investigate, and then give you a ticket. If the federal government is investigating, you trust me when they come to get you. They got everything they need. For years yes. All these all the big time drug dealers and back in the eighties and the ratio edmonds and all those dudes when they got caught, they were done. Is Very Rare. You know I think the federal the federal government has a ninety eight percent conviction rate. Something like that think it's nine, hundred, Ninety, eight percent, and most of the people take a pleat because they know they can win. You know what I mean Something that happened recently, I was reading an article about a brother down in Los Angeles who is ex gang member who was brought a truce between two gangs Mexican gangs in black game, and this brother is putting in a lot of work seeing a lot of his videos on a via a Alex Lonzo. Gangs a cadillac videos and his brothers sincerely trying to put together truth What research that I did is that started in the prison where the Mexican mafia in prison was reaching now stand yeah it's time to end this. You know. It was somebody that he knew or something like that. That will. Shock Collar and the Mexican mafia and they got together because they are understanding in Los, Angeles the community, some of these Hulu literally right around the corner from each and so you got the black gangs Latino gangs, a lot of them are grew up together. Having says, we just impose facility like that. So you got a lot of a lot of Latino who is that are actually in the sainthood or in the same area as Black Grenville they just both individually just did their being of what have you. So you know who's been known each other since they were little kids used to. They ran into each other prison and they talked about you know become. Squashing the beef that they're to babyhood had. and. These beefs have been going on. For. Thirty years. You D for decades for. Decades. Very bloody beats where people that loved ones been killed. A lot of. A lot of prison time handed out behind that beef about the you know these two older guys out together and say you know it's time to put a stop to this I. couldn't believe it. You know. I I. I was still amazed that it actually happened but they they made it half you know in that was thanks lars part you know I it ain't no secret who man is a big call them doc here little doctrine. Yeah and and he was one of those guys that have passed and did things when he was younger without. Serve his time paid his debt side he got out. He was trying to make a better life for himself and. He's tired of this stuff and he wants to build a community efforts destroy right. That's what we always want people to strive do absolutely and so by stopping that beef man that that was a huge huge thing in la you got to kind of beef later really understood not really but. To understand what that's like man. Deep. Those beefs go right. That the hatred runs deep right and so for them to squash all of that come together in unity of was a major thing, and now all of a sudden this guy gets picked up. In a federal regal case yes. I guess the next thing that they're going to be trying to put the kingpin exemption autumn or black. About, when I was talking about being indicted by the feds mile in my own personal life, I've gotten in trouble when I was younger, he's he can do a lot of trump when I was twenty two years old I got indicted by the Federal Government for some stupid shit in ended up ended up being dropped because it wasn't really it had nothing to do with me. But when you talk about getting indicted by the feds especially on a Rico case, the Rico laws for like mob figures. That's for like John Gotti you know traffic, Khantay all these different people. So when you got a brother here who is creating peace The Peace Peace that's been going on from what I'm and I'm on the outside looking in after Nipsy Russell got killed. There's been peace between the rolling sixties and HR against that, which is immortal beef that's been going on since nineteen seventy, nine lot of lives law breath. There's peace there. Now you got Mexican gangs in black gangs piecing up but when you see the federal government step in and take this guy off the street for something that. Happened supposedly allegedly had had one in years and years ago. Right? You have to actually look at that kind of stuff because you know a lot of people talking about this person to phase that person defense you don't know shit about the federal government you know what I'm saying somebody getting on video on youtube talking about a gun dropping on the ground and going off or black lives matter or George. Soros it now we're talking about. Life where these are people that are actually boots on the ground doing the work now wouldn't be I wouldn't be shocked if more people get picked up to stop that that piece from going on and into double back a little bit for everybody that has never seen the documentary Bass Party. There's a part in the documentary where crip gang members talking to bone the blood known blood and CRIP. Dude is telling him that when we was piecing up with this gang over here, they were stealing cars and doing drive by the police was still cars dressed up games doing drive bys owners. And he said in bone SME said man how how did you know that that was going on? He said the. The, the gang we have peace with told us that this is what the police was doing. So and you remember during the truth in Nineteen ninety-two, they lapd was putting out stories that gangs, GonNa Join Farrakhan, and it was going to blow up the police stations and When you're talking about the federal government and how dirty they are look I'm not saying that the federal government wouldn't pay somebody to infiltrate a black organization or something like that. But you gotta understand there's levels to it. You know when the Black Panther Party was being infiltrated by the federal government the reason why Geronimo Pratt went to prison is because they had been infiltrated so bad nobody will speak up for him because they didn't know who who was a federal agent or not. Wow. That's the only reason why. The, federal government. Didn't kill anybody they knew he didn't do what they said he did and he had a solid alibi but because nobody in the party was step up from because they were so paranoid because they had been infiltrated so much drama Pratt went away. What I'm saying Assad is still on the run right now and we all know about Dr Perry. You know people like that that the feds. You know what I'm saying it's not some. It's not the police officer in your neighborhood. That's just a cop makes forty thousand dollars a year. If that I think a lot of things I think would a lot of people will say about Jay and Al confessed. Same. I've talked to one of our guests about this. Mother she'll go is he seemed like he just kinda popped up out of nowhere. Yeah. So for me, that was Kinda my words is due south from you know he kind of pasta out of nowhere I still have really gotTa Status Factory. Answer about that. You know but I mean, you know like it I. Think you had this conversation off the air sometimes people move in silence man and they build and build and build it, and then when the staffer them step up to the spotlight boom, they already they're and they're ready to go. Coakley. Hersi Coakley say in a lecture on. Youtube. Probably back in nineteen ninety five. He said you never WANNA reveal which would you have to until the enemy is defenseless to do anything about So if these brothers was organized in secret, that's what we should been doing. A little boys and all these other different little white organizations that being you know we don't for a lot of people especially in in the black community, we're not on the fortune and all these different places looking at what people doing. We're on facebook twitter instagram what I'm saying. So really they are meeting in secret because we can see what the we need paying attention what the hell they're doing they hide in plain sight. But for us when we do it, it's almost like. I'm guilty of this. I don't know who that is. I've never heard of him. He used to be a DJ back in the day off. Yeah. No. I. was like, okay, he was a DJ. Then they'll go dig up some old videos or seven him saying. Pocket or whatever just by booth if you go fine, let me tell you I'm If you go back five stuff for be from eight years ago. Though man you would think I was the biggest coon. bullshitting bro out man I was I would have been all lives matter type they're. Just came and. I didn't know you them so that that literally just makes no sense to me. Right. because. This is how the this is how they train you. Right. When I was a democrat. I had no idea why I was a Democrat when I was a kid I just knew that you know my family were. Democrats. The Republicans were bad. Did remers Democrats were good. Ronald Reagan was bad. Bill. Clinton was good George W Bush bad right. Obama good. You know. Politics I didn't understand politics but I remember. A particular incident when I was a kid I, I was a senior or maybe junior high school. Teacher Hata's right was the English class. The teacher had US write. You know just like a little literary project I'll just write some expressive thoughts whatever right. So I wrote this paper about how black people we scream about the injustices in our community, but looking where we do to each other and all this. We is. Our State Avi Right the house bill. And so. The Little Lily White Lady teacher she reads my paper. Based she grabs. Still I WANNA penned up on the thing. I'll type it and we're GONNA put it on the WE'RE GONNA. At a big placard on the wall and this that and the other I'm like, oh. Wow. Okay. But that's how they. That's how they do and you know it just kind of blew my mind I was like Damn I didn't think I. Did that job with the hill So excited about what I wrote for basically what I did unbeknownst the myself as I was time I said something that they always WanNa say out loud but they can't say you know what I'm saying. that. They bills are the things that they want to say y'all Jaafar Right. Back on black crime this then the other nobody taught me to stay at least. I don't remember anybody ever teaching me how to say Shit he kinda. Seemed like a happy whilst most somehow man you know and so as I doubt older especially coming out from a criminal background and. That's one of the biggest things that have to do that are reformed convicts when they during the reformation process, they are reformation got your in the rehabilitation process whenever reason we come in contact with a lot of people that you know a lot of Christian pastors that. Bad that Americanized Christianity and a big part of that Christianity is nationalist. You know what I'm saying American nationalism is so amount of that stuff gets mixed in there. So you start to hear a lot of the striper ISM, a lot of bootstraps alive self reflection build yourself up by bootstraps. Don't blame nobody else which self this year that's the kind of programming that we get, and so it's very easy to to Kinda slip into that that kind of talk you know what? I'm saying right and. So that's how I came about it and I'm saying all that to say that a person can change their views once they start to get more information because I was calling myself conservative for a long period of time not. For. A few years and. Would it have with me? The first thing happened was trayvon. Martin. Right. I saw a lot of my little conservative buddies are a lot of. People that I that I used to read and listen to how they were talking about and I was never wanted him Larry elder type. I was never, Nannette. Someone Shit Law that I was never that so that extre-, right? That's extreme. I'm not even going to call them. It is what it is with them. You know what it is but So I started hearing how Greasy we're talking. I'm like man that's kind of. That's not right. You know what I'm saying. is a teen year old kid. Earlier was. Seventeen sixteen. Even if he was twenty like why would didn't really make different? Why do you think is cool for somebody to follow somebody because they think they're committing the cry now I'm thinking like for me that's abnormal to do that. I will certainly never do that to nobody. You know what I'm saying don't follow somebody around 'cause I. Think they don't belong over here totally different mentality but I, kept seeing a lot of the conservatives that I used to listen to. almost condoning this year you know what I'm saying and then Mike Brown happening. Then what was the tipping point for me really was to Mir rice yeah. When that happened man it was it was I had to really start to reexamine some things as one of the first books that I There's a couple of books actually one of the first books that I read and I really started getting me to change their views was a book read summer and I read that book cover discovery was about the race riots in Nineteen nineteen. Yes. Never happened in all over the country and that was something that really opened my eyes because. I started learning about, for example, the black soldiers who fought in. World. War One, the Harlem Hell fighters, and this that the other that went over to fight against the Germans and the. How the United States treated, those soldiers are basically handed them over to the French within told the France they'll be nice to those negroes got to be. We don't want them coming back home thinking that they're going to be treated equally and all this Kinda Shit you know. And then re how some of those soldiers retreating when they came back home and they're reading about all the rights and things like that, and some of the stuff that was going on behind the scenes I said well, Bam. Here than it is history when I was a kid after. And then. The other book they're really really did it was when affirmative action was white once I started rehab. Even. With you didn't pick the UN pick the heaviest. Yes. Once, I, read that. Shattered the whole. It was his all that bootstrapped. Total lie yeah. You know what? I'm saying by his I'd do this this. This was a total that Amli no picking yourself. They didn't do that Shit. Ain't no boost of they stole your damn boots giant blocks it right exactly. So Once I figured that once I started seeing on that it was very easy for me to transition over to where I'm at. Now you know what I'm saying I'M NOT GONNA sit here and call myself a leftist. Throw. A. Democrat. Hail. Now, now, who wouldn't say that? No, I never I didn't grow up around anybody that was a conservative grew up around everybody was Democrat. Democrat and the same thing you've Democrat because they're they're good in the Republicans a bear Ronald Reagan's the devil stores w George H, w Bush was. I remember. He's the devil devil. And his son is son of the devil, right? Okay. Dancing cracks. Damian. Once but once saw was. Funny How do these things where he'd be like Damn I can't believe I just seen that nine eleven changed everything for me. nine eleven changed everything. That's when I became politically literate. Okay. I made sure. I paid attention I. Don't know why. But I made sure I paid attention to everything because I wanted to see what this was Goin' and I didn't I didn't remember I remember it happening but I didn't remember World Trade Center in one, thousand, nine, hundred, three, I didn't remember the Gulf War Nine, hundred, ninety, one, I remember it happened but I didn't understand why. Storm Yeah I didn't understand what their slant drilling and all this other I didn't know anything about that stuff. So once nine eleven happened, that's when I started fishing. I just kept on fishing fishing. Documentaries came out loose change. That's when I found out who Alex Jones was and that back that time. Alex. Jones. Was the government is trying to do this that and the third and you were thinking that he was a leftist the way he sounded. You know what I mean. But then rock Obama became president. That's when shit hit the fan. Wants Brock about and people can say whatever you won't. He ain't even in black American and he's not eighty. Out in look at it like that I was looking at it for what it was politically. That's when I started seeing everybody just I mean people that you wouldn't believe. Come out of woodwork racist in a month. And I was like Oh. Okay. Damn this is I mean the talking points were horrible and it wasn't even it wasn't even just because he was black when I looked at nine eleven and I looked at the political side of things are how the government was literally still in taxpayer money. And Korean hit squad like Blackwater and sending them over to Afghanistan and I lost a partner mind in Afghanistan in Volusia back in two thousand six. You know what? I'm saying he went over there and got blown by bomb. From the hood from around the way. and He went over his his dad put him out and he joined the military and that was worse than he did. You know what I'm saying but when I started recognizing where the money was going I started paying attention to the money side thing you know what I mean when I started finding out what nine eleven was really all about. You know who quote co conspiracy of things and I'm GonNa get into all of that but you know when? I seen them when they started going to war, I started hearing about how kb are and Halliburton is was outsourced by the Federal Government is owned by Dick Cheney, like all these things I was like Minnesota this thing the president don't. mean. Shit. Right, this is a big gain. That's when they were called Neo con. The Neo Conservatives Brat right I know what? I'm saying Philip Zella cow all those do that grew up the drew up the strategy for them the Iraq war, and all those kind of things I started reading about these dudes and I started recognizing and understanding propaganda. You probably heard me bring this up before but I remember sitting in my grandmother's house and this is when the the war in Afghanistan was hot two, thousand and four, thousand, three and I remember. The history channel putting on the Bible. And the Bible in on that show on the Bible Code they talked about how if you if you decipher this in the Bible tells you about all the I remember the whole Bible Cohen Cranes. Yay. Tower is in the Bible and. Lonzo name is in the by. Boko. then. Okay. Yeah. This bullshit. If I know how many people don't And I don't even I. Don't even know if you can find that episode of the Bible Code on Youtube I don't think it exists. The simple fact that they're using propaganda there hammering at home the hammered that propaganda home. So then transferred that into how we are told who to vote for. We're told the vote for Joe Biden but then luckily, thank God for the Internet we can go back and find videos to him about that crime bill. I can go back and find out the shit that he was saying about black people in the seventies and the sixties sound like a Republican man exactly half Lamy partisan. What man much loved ice tea he said the same thing he said on twitter I'm not a democrat. He said they're both two wings on the same bird. ooh Democrats and Republicans you know what I mean don't tell Somebody's Democrats these black they will democrats that. We. All got family members that fall victim to that stuff. You know what I mean. My Grandmother was one of them people you know the we know when it's time to vote. This is here in Portland. They're going to have some Negro that works for whoever's running for office Democrat come to church yet may go kick it. They don't eat chicken and staying and all that kind of stuff. And then presidents do I remember bill. Clinton. They. All Do. I will say this trump is making it damn hard rock and trying to get people to wake up a memo Democrat versus Republican dynamic. Again. Do. Everything, he can to lose the REX. A thing that he put out there today. Did. You see that I posted on my instagram about. Low Let me let me make sure i. read it real quick. Hang on say about the the suburbs. I. Am happy to inform all of the people living there suburban lifestyle dream that you will no longer be bothered or financed me hurt by having little income housing built in your neighborhood your housing prices will go up based on the market crime will go down ever said that the Obama Biden Af f h rule enjoy. that. And now you can get and I'm not really you know I don't really get into the whole. These are signals in this that. It is with this was a gap. A man. Who you people think that he's referring to exactly when he says, you know low income and cry he associates the low income with the crime and all that you know what I'm saying so. Hearing. Right that's exactly what it is but. Man He's making it harder Birla trying to school my mom. To the point to where? The only way you should be voting for Donald trump if you're. Right it sounds crazy because he may you know and you remember this when George W Bush was the president the country was on the brink of revolution. A lot of people don't forget that in this because this is this was before facebook before twitter all that stuff man people was they was added a mind. He makes sure Bush. Man You ain't never lie never lie you saw Bush's responsible the Ryan started cracking oh. Yeah you know With the dignified response you know. Him and I always tell people that I never believed that George W. Bush was racing. ooh, I believe he was an elitist. You know what? I'm saying I never believed he was a rice donald trump a racist. You know you know he's a he's a straight up he's Andrew Jackson. Man and I'm trying not to get into that. You know the Republicans are racist that the Democrats GonNa do that. I'll be trying not to do that man but this month Donald. Trump. I told myself I'm only I only vote local. Yeah but And this. Oh no man this dude is toxic. You almost want to. It's almost as if you believe it's a conspiracy that they're making him be this way you do vote the other way I'm on. This. They'll be like a curse word right now there I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Okay. I'm not but I will not lie and say that I'd be lying. If I say the thought has crossed my mind. Absolutely I'M GONNA head to vote for this motherfucker by land. In the. Yeah I'll see how they get you. Lucy and that's the reason why I will not do it is because I see it but even though I see it's Almost like they say know what? The fuck you're GONNA do about it. Right you know what I'm saying you WANNA, Third Party were you in getting one now? What right a? Almost like exactly with this that Young I thought it was no world possible that I would vote for by an man. Got Remember this one big Michael's I. Remember we almost their bet you guys couldn't convince me down. Trump was gonna win I remember that I wouldn't believe it I. was I was man there was no I was laughing at y'all. I was literally laughing at you big mike and T I was laughing at your brother's who's not gonNA win because in my mind I'm thinking that everybody remembers he's a con artist. Everybody didn't remember Michelle He. was like I couldn't believe it. I still can't believe it. GotTa. I still think sometimes I by being in twilight on, it makes a lot of people be become jaded. So then they started doing good win this is like well, I, mean, do you really want? Do you want? Do you want the country to go that far down into the shitter writing? I mean I'm not saying like we're we're you know. Like I'm representing the country, and then because I know this country represent me the way I I needed to. But what I'm saying is like I live here. You know what I'm saying. So do really want to see the country down that path. Now, the point to where we're electing book and Lucille Ball or some shit like right. It come on man I mean. Run for president. Starwood Ronald Reagan. You know what I'm saying. An actor absolutely as the governor of the state of. California. Absolutely and they elected another actor Arnold Schwarzenegger who's not even a native of me. He's. He's not wasn't an American citizen all his life. Immigrated here. who were born here right. So you know why not? fucking bad. Why about now, that would be a horrible idea because I don't think on as is stable not mentally. I mean but yeah man you know tires. Just real strange times man. The half on here which you chop it up a little bit Yemen and. See what's going on the negative woods. Well, you know My only thing is I was going to go down to Nike, but then I thought about only go down there and somebody might think black lives matter and they just tossed my ball hit as an event. You know we're all black lives matter. And here comes black lives matter. Last matter is in here. To help. With. The tattoos I don't even know I only right now. Exactly but I but I live I live far away from downtown about twenty minutes twenty thirty minutes downtown. But I will say this when it was active, you can hear them downtown you could hear all the noise you. Can hear the what are they called it the tear gas guns going off and kind of Shit it's not like. Here it. So and that's the thing and they were launching fireworks. Fireworks. Yes. Yes. Though is definitely Definitely, test is testy situation, but you know everybody's down there protests what they Nike's. That's how. Let's. Let's wrap this thing. We just wanted to come in here real quick, but for all the listeners thank you. We appreciate you guys for listening become a subscriber, become a patron, go to the Youtube page and subscribe. Like share all the videos. Become patron five dollars. Ten dollars here we're going to be taking phone calls here soon to we're GONNA be, taking calls from. Fans and guests and stuff. So it was part of that too seminar Tinos everything. Want to have a conference call too. At the ended a month maybe once a month or so have a schedule group conference call with people that. Are. In that here you know we start strategizing and talking about some themes baby, the two guys Wanna discuss the easy. We've talked about before but we've recently gotten away from or topics that we haven't covered yet that you guys would be interested in US tackled so. Because definitely, the on the Youtube men, a lot of fans are interacting as a matter of fact, on next Monday, we're GONNA be doing a livestream with Beata and psychiatrist Dr Candice. So she's going to be on with us and hopefully, either you are t comes on with four people on the stream because I think it's GonNa be really barely interesting. We're GONNA be talking about relationships empathy therapy, all these different kind of stuff that we need to be doing. Yeah. Yeah. So so basically, yeah just become a subscriber in a get that that ten dollars here and get all the gift bags. Instead of also we got face we got masks coming out on August twentieth. So if you go to go to red bubble dot com, you can find us on red bubble and we have mass on there and we have coffee mugs and some other goodies on there. So yeah, check us out. So But yeah man thanks thanks for coming on Thank everybody A.

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Episode 19 Piper Rae from Sagebrush Ranch

BunnyRanch Podcast

25:30 min | 1 year ago

Episode 19 Piper Rae from Sagebrush Ranch

"It's Daddy D if it ain't going down at the bunny ranch it ain't going down at all stolen. Hello Hello Welcome back to another episode of the Bunny Ranch podcast. My Name is Alice little I am. I'm your host as well as illegal sex worker at the world famous Moonlite Bunny ranch located in Carson city. Nevada this this week I have on one of my dear friends and co-workers Piper Ray from the sagebrush. Oh like God I feel like it's been it's been forever. Oh my gosh. So as many of you know I started working here a number birth years ago and the first location I worked at was the Sagebrush ranch before eventually transferring over to the bunny ranch so we have the chance to work together when I was like for friends year. Oh my God it is so great to catch up. I looked freaking amazing. You so those of you listening to the PODCAST keep in mind. You can see the video behind the scenes in catch a glimpse names of the Gorgeous Piper. Ray My checking out our Youtube Channel but yes oh my gosh. I love what you're wearing this school red and plaid battle white and it is also and I've gotta ask what's coming home with the teeth clear. I'd like Blink Blink Blade I have Little diamonds on both of my canines and It's just with We know like dental glue. I went to a tattoo shop a few months ago. And it's something that I I kind of had like. I kind of had wanted to try for a while and then the timing was right in six months later I still absolutely love him. That's awesome really suits you you figure it just it brings Out Your Natural Brilliance. Even more so oh my goodness so dressed as a naughty schoolgirl hair there. a theme. I'm sensing perhaps for the sleekness Lepas road maybe talking about some kinky stuff that the play. Yeah definitely I was GonNa say we both represent a very unique demographic thicke which is that of a spinner So how would how would you define. What a spinner is I feel? Like a spinner is a woman who is either very petite in Weight or height. So somebody that you can just like pick up and do crazy positions with and all sorts of stuff. Yeah it gives you the ability to in theory able to just pick your partner up and spin pin them around to get some really intense amazing angle angle baby. I'll tell you right now. It's about the size. It is the motion and the angle yes Anglo mature in relation to the waves. I feel like there's probably like a technical nautical term that probably translates better over but it works and like all about the motion. And when you're with a partner who super petite I feel like you just get to try sofi who much more in the sense that suddenly you're able go to lift somebody up and experienced different depth of angle different sensations and it really just adds to the intensity all sorts of positions. It's it's really like unlimited when it comes to that it is so amazing like what's what would you say one of your favorites. Oh I'd have to say Like being picked up and then like pressed against a wall like picked up. You know like that is yes. Yes yes I'm here for it. Yes yes please. Oh my Gosh I I kind of like the one I always call it like the like the sexy. W where like the guy is going to scoop you up. But you're going to have your legs over like his forearm kind of like got your back in his son he's like lifting and lowering and you can either be standing or sitting. It's all about about those angles. Holy casts like agree. There is something about that in just getting to try those different positions that I think is really appealing. Two guys. You figure. A lot of people go throughout life and they have a limited number of partners. I think the American Canaveral is what five five to seven sex partners likes the national average So it stints to say that a large percentage of folks have never had an opportunity to be with somebody that is so petite that they are able to try to explore those things with do you tend to get a Lotta guys were like. Oh my God I've never room with someone so like tiny bef- yes all the time I get it all the time and it's fun because then you get get to show them you know. Be a part of like a new experience in new positions and things like that that absolutely blow their mind a hundred percent Lake Nick. There's just something fun about getting to teach someone like. Hey if you do this and then you would just this little angle here till all to your hip and think up rather than down. It's a completely different sensation is this is true. And it's so difficult to put words to it because it's really. He liked physical action in getting to be in the bedroom and getting to share that with someone is just so unique. I really I don't know I get such a ahead of me too. Oh my gosh so with all the schoolgirl costuming we have going on. Is it safe to say that you offer schoolgirl type fantasies shale do I do I love Role playing and fetishes and all sorts of stuff. And this is actually one of the outfits that I do. Have I decided to wear for you guys today and he loves suggesting Q.. It suits you so well it shows off your long tiny little legs. Is it just like durably. Little short cropped read over skirt piece. That comes up with little CAESARS. Full full color cows on sleeves. Just it really suits you thank you and of course the black rimmed glasses. It's just like Oh okay okay. I think I need to stay after school. Yeah I duNno detention detention. That's the word food. Yes in love. It got select. What kind of role play scenarios? Have you gotten to share with people. Wow I did one party where a few parties Where you know the gentleman was the professor and I was the cheerleader or the school girl? Or you know. Doctors and nurses doctors patients All sorts of stuff. I love it. It's so fun to get into character just like you know really really get down to the Lake County. How do you get into character? When you're like doing enroll play like everybody has their thing that they do like what do I don't know I I? I guess that's a hard question because I kind of just get into it. I wasn't like theater and stuff in high school. And kinda just like think about the character. And you're you're like I'm this naughty over on to get some extra ranch exactly had yet like I also career during school and it's kind of like for me. I'll look in the mirror especially at the outfit and used that help. Get Ri- just be like I'm a sexist here. We go all right doctor. I'm ready to scrub it. Oh yes it's just like audience fun and it's so imaginative because you have to try things that let's be honest you would never get to do in real life like like everything we get to do. Here is just fantasy and so it's a safe place to explore be creative. Try all sorts of new fantasies fetishes and gets you connect with people and just do all the things that have always been on your pocket list. Yes like true. So how long have you been with the company now. I've been with the company for about seven years on and off. That's awesome. I find that a lot of ladies choose to take time away kind of yeah go through personal growth kind of go. Through education dictation whatever it may be come back revisit. The Industry Rodney found that some of your guests came back. Even after you are away definitely definitely definitely As soon as I started you know Why started out at the Bunny ranch and I was there for? This was a few years ago when I was there for a few years. I absolutely I loved it I took a break and ended up coming back to the sagebrush because the Bundy ranch which is very booked so I came here and Absolutely loved it so I have been over here for a few years now in. Yeah I like it over here it's I do definitely miss the bunny. But it's just like we're a whole big family anyways so yeah I miss it over here dude like all the time like in doing you know we'd like some money originally body ranch but the Sagebrush it's like family like when you come into the Sagebrush ranch fans it's like walking into like comfortable yet luna living room space where there's just these plush really comfortable couches You're able to just get a drink. Sit Down Relax. Bay Comfy vibe. I I enjoy that. It's just a little bit slower a little bit softer and I feel like for a lot of new guests. They might be intimidated by the idea walking into the bunny ranch and getting like a whole lineup in so I find that a lot of first time guests often times we'll set up a placements like yeah you notice that too definitely it just it kind of takes some of the pressure off. I so you WanNa you WanNa know what to expect kind of you know you're walking into it like do you remember how you felt the first time you walked into the Bunny ranch. It's all those years ago like what did what did you feel like Overwhelmed with excitement and you know little bit nervous but yeah I mean especially as like walking into One of the houses as a customer. It's a little bit more a Nerve wracking could see that. Oh Yeah I always recommend that people kind of channel author nerves into excitement and instead of being so nervous inside at the like you know I can't wait for this is GonNa be amazing. I'm I'm GonNa do something incredible for the first time I can't wait for it and like redirect that energy and use it to your advantage definitely and I kind kind of feel like that excitement. That excited vibe is also kind of sexy like this. Let us know happy to be here. That's I'm like. So what advice advice would you have for someone walking in for the first time I would just say to be excited and ready to have a really good time. Relax relax yes relaxed calm but be excited because you're about to have the time of your life seriously. It's it's the other greatest place on earth the other happiest place on her head like it's it's the Best I love it here. Sure and it's just so much fun getting to bring somebody in for the first time showing them around and often times. I find that people are almost overwhelmed and when they realized how expansive these reasons are like the sagebrush ranch is the largest of all of the property is is there are so many different spaces. There's a beautiful fantasy sweet like I remember when they remodeled that. Yes like it it. Has this Nice Jacuzzi Tub has flagrant Ole Jacuzzi Tub Pisces. Water baby. So I love it city. Did you follow astrology. I'm somewhat I do but I just know that as for me like Pisces. Very sensitive Um which definitely describes me. They love water and they're very intuitive. So I love that. Yeah you've always had just this really good natural way with people. Where are you just kind of? Get this the sense of like. How do I help this person? Relax what can I do to make the experience of them. You know all we want everybody to be as comfortable and as happy and satisfied as possible. We want this to be like an amazing experience. Yeah I mean it. It's really it's so much more than when people are legal but the experience. It's a whole experience. Would you say say that since when you first started compared to now that you've kind of changed in terms of how you view view this career I have to say that I mean yes and no. I'm very grateful Foale to be here and opportunities awesome and the people that you get to meet are like you know every day is different and you get to learn something different in this job is unlike any other it is. I always think of it as it's a bunch of ordinary ladies working in extraordinary job and by extension. We kind of being these extraordinary people because I feel like in so many ways we get to be so uniquely in touch with this country lake. I remember back to when the hurricanes coming through in Texas and I had a couple of Guests that were traveling into the area and like we were watching. The news together in there is like this moment where we're all like. Hey you know deep breaths good vibes lake it. It's amazing just how we kind of connect with people like. I'm sure you've had some crazy experiences over the years. Yes I definitely have had. Is there any that come to mind that you feel comfortable sharing. I'd have to say that's a good question I did have A few years ago I had a A party like chocolate Syrup Banana Party in it was absolute madness. It was so much fun chocolate syrup. All over the walls Only guys fun okay. That's something and that's like a whole fetish into itself. The banana split it. Yeah it's it's called splashing yes. Yes flushing it's a fetish in which you either want to rub food or lick food or eat food off of your partner service or whatever so may be like okay. I've always wanted to do this. So there's this Japanese he is Sushi art in which it served naked on the woman. It's called neo time. Worrying always thought it would be so interesting to do like a neon Taymor e-experienced with like two of the girls that are naked and the Sushi's already laid out and then you have another girl that's like pouring the teen getting it all set up. Aw that could be like a cool bachelor parties or definitely like five. I feel like the Strip club is just expected now for Bachelor parties. That's like aren't GonNa Strip right now. Something original yes. God like there's so many different things you could do for Fool Bachelor party here like like Ooh. I don't know what ideas do you have Who Gosh because all I can think about is that we have this like little stage two area here at the sagebrush mirrors behind it Minutes like you could have. Have you know three or four ladies can giving like a romantic lap dance. Originally sensual kissing touching likes giving somebody like this fool full like massage pamper experience or like and then also I do believe that we we could be completely nude dancing on the poll with Only out not something that you are able to get at the Strip clubs. That is very true. It's Strip club. Plus plus plus addition so much better so so let like you could even do like a cool like Harem. Kind of thing in a bunch of girls like sexy and like all of if Syria like you do like the whole Lake Grecian Goddess or God thing like that can really sexy. There's just so so many fun things in creative things that you can do in again. This place is a safe place to use your imagination and explore whether it be schoolgirl or crazy harem fantasy or Khakurel role play. Like I don't know what's the most unique experience experience that you've heard of Kosh. There's there's definitely a few but I have to say it's actually one of yours. Yeah I've heard about out of a job in the limo with in bikinis that it was like the most ultra like specifically micro-mini bikinis with schoolgirl skirts. Over the micro mini many bikinians sexy. It was insane and anyway this fellow had been a guest before we just prepaid for the entire experience yes and he pulls up and discreetly slides into the Limo ridiculously ridiculously fun. I think at one point in time we took like one of the little mini splits of Champagne. We poured it over. I love it. Sounds like such a blouse release Sykes. It was one of the most wild things they've ever done like if you haven't done limos sex yet boy howdy have you. I haven't I said nope not yet. Someone's got to take fibers Lamothe. Okay seven days please. My blanket 'cause like our levels are all blacked out and the driver. Persian comes up and I mean what you're doing late late night. No one else's business. I love it like play safe. Play responsible like we so much fun. Oh my goodness so. We're coming up for Thanksgiving here. I thought it would be fun to Kinda leave things Offer with kind of a Thanksgiving note. What are you most thankful for this year? I am most thankful for for all of the people in my life. That are there for me and love me and support me every day and you know like my family my family here. It's very important. Like things can be replaceable. But people can't I mean there's just really so much to be grateful for to be thankful for I mean for me. This place is like my family like my family lives far the head go away so for Thanksgiving I celebrate it with the ranch every single gear. And it's I I look forward to like I feel like we have just the best holidays in the world here talking of Thanksgiving and giving thanks. Thanks we are having a very special. Thanks giving away of over one hundred dollars. Here's worth of Bunny Ranch merch. ooh signed by the ladies all sorts of fun stuff that is going to go to one. Lucky winner the winner will be run on. Thanksgiving in here is how you enter. I make sure to subscribe to this podcast on whatever listening platform you use. We are on I tunes. We're err on spotify. We are all over the Internet. Follow US subscribed to us and then take a quick little screen shot of that subscription confirmation and email it to me alice little at Bunny ranch dot com subject line China. podcast entry Thanksgiving giveaway. This way I will be sure to add to you and your information Dan to the giveaway pool. You can also get bonus entries by leaving a comment on our youtube channel. Plus you can follow us on Instagram at Bunny ranch as well as on twitter at Bunny ranch we we are so excited to give you guys the hook up with some sweet amazing merch so be sure to email me again. Alice little at Bunny ranch dot com. Let me know that you're entering into the giveaway in the subject line and will make some magic happen. Oh my gosh so talking of all the upcoming coming holidays to have any special plans. Are you looking for holiday dates as it were. Yeah definitely You know all of the the the entire next few months like there's so many events and things that you can do for the holidays there's ice skating There's there's wind walks. There's all sorts of like hall in crackers coming to us like there's just some awesome talented magic shows comedian. Really something for everyone whether you want to go out and be a snow bunny or stay inside and cuddle up by the fire. There's just so much to do so if somebody wants to spend time with you how can they get a hold of you. Are you on the Internet. Where can we find Piper so I am I am on the message board? I am also If you wanted to you can call the office at seven seven five two four six five six eight three and you can chat with me there or or you can email me at Piper Ray at sagebrush ranch dot com in that is our a. e. for ray perfect as to myself myself you can always reach out to me Alice. Little Bunny ranch dot com as well as follow me on twitter at the Alice little or on the Instagram at the Alice little official. I'm super high because I'm going to be dropping some new merge this month I've got coffee mugs is and boom postcards so stupid excited like exciting. I can't wait. Can't wait to see them. All right everyone. Thank you you so much for listening to another episode of the Bunny Ranch podcast. My name is Alice little. I've been your host. See you all next week even more fun.

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Dispatches: Bundyville, The Remnant

Outside Podcast

1:02:43 hr | 1 year ago

Dispatches: Bundyville, The Remnant

"This episode of the outside podcast brought to you by athletes unfiltered season two. It's the new podcast from strata the world's best APP for runners and cyclists and this season. We've got an incredible series of stories from the strategy community when I say we I mean for the last few months the podcast team here at outside has been working with the folks at strata on these stories. They're all about running cycling and ultra marathoning so you've been helping out and there's some stuff in here that I'm actually Kinda jealous that they got to. I like Myrna Valero but what it's like to be an overweight ultra marathoner. I already know that I'm fat so you don't tell me that I am an ultra marathoner so please don't make assumptions about me. Please don't ask me to exercise because I exercise Lorenzen. Dan You struggles to find balance as a professional bike racer. I don't visit to anybody. I know you know close to me because it's like it's like you have been into a war zone or Brian and Tom Williams a father. Other son team took on the Comrades Ultra Marathon and South Africa. Even after Brian had been kicked out of the country. I think we're GONNA do it if we do it and if we succeed it or just be it'll be the fulfillment of a dream. It'll put your risk many of the ghosts of post. It's a series that's not so much about how to change your life to better pusher limits but about how pushing limits can change your life. The first episode of athletes unfiltered season two is out now with more episodes coming coming every other week this summer find it and subscribe and your favorite podcast APP whichever when you're listening on right now from outside magazine N._p._R.. These these are dispatches stories from writers in the field last year round this time we shared an episode of the series Bundy Ville with you about the Bundy family they had been at the center of two standoffs federal government in Nevada at the ranch in an Oregon at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge these two events kind of become flashpoints the debate about public lands in the West and there was a around dialogue about questions like should ranchers be running cattle out there should desert land be preserved as habitat for endangered species who owns the middle of nowhere. If you listen to that whole series and we can actually tell by the numbers I love you did by the time you get the end. The questions had changed a little bit. It wasn't about public lands so much as anti-government violence. This conflict started out being about the Bundy's where they could raise cattle but by the end it was bigger in about the militias religious fundamentalists and conspiracy theorists that had responded when the Bundy's put out a call for the last year reporter. Leah's Attila has been following this new threat reporting not on the Bundy's but on the people who are taking the radical accolades ideas of the Bundy's even further. You may have noticed a lot of right wing violence in the news this last year shootings synagogues and mosques bombs being mailed a prominent liberals when it comes to extremist violence twenty eighteen was actually actually one of the most violent years in America since nineteen seventy so leah wanted to know about this violence where it was coming from WHO's carrying it out and why and now a year later we've got another season of Bundy Ville the share with you the rooms all over the American West. This is another project team here at outside has been helping with so we're actually gonNA play the first two episodes for you back to back but unlike the first season that ended up really far from where it started season two who by the end is right back where it began in the small rural town of panic in Nevada a quick warning to people who may be listening with kids or triggered by this topic these episodes have some mild swearing graphic violence and discussions of racist just ideologies so just keep that in mind usually so what if I told you that in the summer of Twenty sixteen in a rural western town there was a bombing you never heard about nine one on what emergency short hell Ma'am Ma'am abreast for me okay and I I can barely Danja happened. Linden Pinnock Nevada a town about three hours north of Las Vegas Right on the border with Utah. He's he said he was going to kill you you. He said he's calling for explosives and you are you away from the home. It was July Thirteenth Twenty sixteen around eight o'clock in the evening one of those warm warm summer nights but still feels like the middle of the day Tiffany cluff was insider house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was gonna blow her house up? She should get the kids and leave the man then lit the fuse on the bomb. He'd put inside the house walk to his car. Got Inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head. Then everything blew up. Ah Shrapnel went everywhere curving in Long Arc's over the town just down the street the county sheriff some black smoke coke mushroom cloud billing into the sky but I do need additional information from the okay so she we have one dispatcher time she goes to jail any help. Appeal trees title all lines all administrative also just couldn't y'all got physics. If you try to so that's Panetta's Sheriff Carrie Leigh he lives down the street and he had no idea what was going on. who was was involved but tiffany Kloof? She knew the bombers. Is there anyone injured or do you see anyone injured. Who Came Glenn Jones came into Your House for House from long reads and Oregon Public Broadcasting? This is Bundy fill the remnant. I'm the utility it was about eight o'clock in the evening. Just normal summer evening people out walking kids riding bikes people mowing lawns just normal. Nothing out of the ordinary cheerfully was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grabbed the keys to his patrol rig and drove toward the chaos. You know my mind is like troy hundred mile an hour trying to figure out what in the world and with at that time twenty eight years Moore's law I mean I'd seen a lot of been experience a lot. I'm still trying to comprehend what in the world is going on here. You know carvedilol like that in a movie okay when you see a movie that's how they don't like that. Panetta gets share of loud noises from a nearby air. Force Base is Sheriff said he knew right away. This was something different and I literally felt in my chest. I felt the concussion in my chest. Then I could see the mushroom cloud coming up over the air though in the world in the I could hear the power here that I thought this was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany cluff recognized the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure figuring out so I grabbed the key patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car. The second explosion happens in the more he told us about it the crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling in their vehicles and we actually had to weave through cars get into the to where the houses and we were waved as as stop stop. Stop your body parts. I said what run around her body parts and that's what they said. Look over there look over. There's a subtle leagues the belt down laying on the road. The first bomb blew up the house of Tiffany and her husband Josh cluff. They were nurses in town and live there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened and the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car parked next to the House and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones a former nurse who used to work under Josh at the Hospital Sheriff Lee pulled up to a scene that was absolute mayhem mayhem and like other body parts everywhere share flea is a guy with many jobs in Panetta and when he arrived he wasn't sure which job he was supposed to be doing okay so this is a small small town small community small county and we all wear different hats okay and you're gonNA probably get a chuckle out of this but I am also the fire chief here in Pinnock okay volunteer volunteer. They see you are also as sheriff. You're also the corner of the county corner also correct. I'm on the Emergency Planning Commission for the county. I try to somewhat hold of family on. I helped my father run the ranch so so between auto spare time a little bit between midnight four A._M.. Okay so he's at the scene and he's got body parts. That means Corner Hat Sheriff Lee told me and my producer Ryan has that it's his job to identify fi who's limbs were scattered everywhere but he can't really I._D.. Anyone with just some legs and we did not actually find the upper torso. which is what we need it for vacation? I don't care about the do care but that's not I need. I need the torso legs. Any I mean I need fingerprints. I need dental records and that type of stuff to be able to identify someone took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of Glen Jones when they did he wasn't laid out on his back and easy to identify a tree in the neighbor's yard. Yeah bazaars it is but even more bizarre was that when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the cores investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we're able to give fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said D._N._R.. which do not resuscitate my that's my my medical? Training is the army's resuscitate and phone number for the victims house or the victim the victim of the house his phone number bizarre you know I don't even know how to venture on that. I just that's one of the most bizarre things that I've encountered on a death to. Have somebody ask you something like that on them. I don't know I don't know he had he had a lot of medical training so I know I know that's why I think d._N._R.. Was He knows what the arm it but he knows medical d._N._R.. Is Not resuscitate can ask a stupid question when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system and saw that job. Why isn't this guy after the first season of Bundy villa last year? I had no intention of making thing anymore. I wanted to find out why the Bundy family would take on the government twice in why all these really different militia groups flocked to their side for the most part I got answers the Bundy's tapped into an anti-government worldview that exists just under the surface out west and created an image of the true American cowboy for people to rally around but after they won their court cases the Bundy's started to disappear disappear they'd gotten what they wanted and they're still running cows on public land without paying your grazing fees and of story right but the anti-government group's who'd come to their side. They didn't go away the Bundy's brought together the oath keepers sovereign citizens three percenters in the right wing media all the people who think the government is out to get them basically the catchall term for these groups is the Patriot movement and that movement didn't go away just because cliven Bundy went back to ranching so before you go any further if you haven't listened to that season go do that now. Season Two is going to build off a lot of the things we talked about last time time. Actually the first question I had when I came across the story of the bombing in Panetta was whether or not it was connected to the Bundy's in the Patriot movement and everything from season one was this extremist violence some form of of domestic terrorism or just a dispute between co workers. There wasn't any obvious connection. It was just this weird thing but it's not like bombs blood everyday in this country and I wanted to know more so producer user Ryan Harrison. I flew out there. pennock is this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border with Utah a desert outpost that was founded in eighteen sixties by Mormon pioneers see only town in Nevada. That's dry hi meaning. You can't buy alcohol there. One of just two in the state were gambling is prohibited. There's a sign at the town listing the ten commandments like that'll keep the devil out so Panetta's God country and it's such a western Cliche cliche that I literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle of the street. It's a place where you know your neighbor and you know that really knowing him means understanding. What's Your Business? What isn't ask someone about Glen Jones and they'll say they knew him? Nice guy blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one anakin tells me they wouldn't wanNA speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town but then offered an opinion opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of a workplace grievance between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff Josh at one time was Glenn's boss at the local hospital and they we're good friends Glenn even help Josh build his house in Panetta but about a year before the bombing Glenn left his job at the hospital later he also losses nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe. Maybe Glenn blamed Josh I'd heard and the he headed grudge with him. Glenn Wadsworth family home is next door to the cliffs. He was out mowing the lawn when the bombing happened was the last person seek Glenn Jones alive the gentleman got out of that car and I watched him get out of that car walk around back in the House and he walked back in you know he weighed at me and was mowing the lawn watts. We're told us that this weird feeling came over and while he was mowing that he should skip the rest of the front yard and move around to the back so we did and there's no question that I wouldn't be here for mobile the east side and the southside saved my life that night sure in fact nobody but the bomber was hurting the blast. This was a common story. I heard everyone remembers where they were that day and how no-one got hurt even when shrapnel rain down like hail of a clear Blue Sky Sky the worst thing that happened was a boy who's riding his bike by the clubhouse got smacked with a piece of something was knocked off his bike. He got a bruise really I mean you probably could look at that kid shoulder and they wouldn't miss car that kid's mom works at the local bed-and-breakfast. She made us pancakes when we were there and she told us she thought the angels of Panetta's ancestors were looking out for the town that day for some people in Panetta. That's really all the explanation they need. God kept them safe. There aren't any official answers anyway. Share Flea tells me that shortly after the bombing it became an F._B._i.. Investigation and all the F._B._I.. Told me when I asked for comment was was that it's quote the policy of the F._B._i.. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear. Nobody in town can really answer my questions but people were still thinking about it. A couple people asked me to call them if I found out what really happened between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff it's only after I left Panetta that I may be found an answer an answer that pointed to something much bigger than a petty disagreement between co workers. After visiting Panetta. I started calling around. Glenn Jones had been living in Kingman Arizona in an R._V. Park right before the bombing happened. I called all the tattoo shops in town thinking maybe someone would remember doing a weird phone number Tattoo and while my calls did peak the curiosity of a lot of kingman tattoo artists no knew anything about it. I also look for Jones's relatives online but turned up. Nothing substantial social what I did learn is that Jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the Army National Guard but he never saw combat in fact. He never left his home state of Colorado during his service in Kingman Jones's well liked by the people there as he wasn't Panetta remembered for his deference more than any other quality the manager the R._V. Park where he lived told me that just days before the bombing Jones owns came into his office and paid the rent for a neighbor going through chemo. He told the manager not to say who did it. An Panetta not only did no one say negative thing to me about Jones most wouldn't even call him by his name. They referred to him as the suspect or the person. The National News didn't cover it either. This was a bombing on American soil and sure no one was hurt but the bomber but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story after the bombing the Kingman Police Department rated Glenn Jones's trailer so I got copies of their police reports they found bomb-making materials inside a few spiral bound journals Jones name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for a bomb one detective said quote the entries indicated that Glenn Jones it had been approached by a subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device the intended target the officer wrote was identified as Fourth of July beal field office but here's where things things get murky because the fourth of July came and went that year and nothing happened in by July thirteenth. Jones decided instead to target Josh Cliff here sheriff. We I don't know I I don't know an I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. There were friends at one point time. They're very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal federal government some reason they would've wanted to bomb a beal field office and it turned out there was hello everyone this boyfriend come one cow boyish Dan for freedom and I promised that I'd make more videos radio when things progress between me and the federal government to be all I'm in particular and they have before the twenty sixteen takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Nobody really knew Lavoix finicky by the time he went to Oregon in the most public facing presence he had where the youtube videos he'd been posting for a few months about his fight with the Bureau of land-management Remember. He's the guy from Malheur who was killed reaching for a gun in his jacket during a traffic stop at a roadblocks set up by police to arrest the leaders of the occupation for now. We know who is that by July twenty sixteen when the bomb went off in Nevada the cluff home Finnigan was dead in the Patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of tyrannical government murdering Americans your hand everywhere you look in the Patriot movement you'll see Finnigan's cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles lls flags bumper stickers people write songs about him. He's become the figurehead of a movement in their report. Kingman police wrote that there was an entry in Jones's notebook indicating that La- VOIP and it comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beal office and that quote Josh is the cousin of Lavoie finicky him. I was able to confirm the Josh. CLUFF is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved so I asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time time way. Before the bombing that lead did see an anti-government side to Kloof. He didn't WanNa give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the just was that at the hospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone and couldn't decide to ask for it themselves cleft wasn't having it got really angry started yelling but got a little bit of eye-opening about how Josh felt about out government overreach so just to be clear Glenn Jones blew up the House of Josh cluff who was related to Lavoix Finchem Finnigan's death according to the police report was possibly Glenn Jones's motive for the bombing of appeal and building but that bombing never happened Jones targeted cluff instead it's unclear whether cluff and Jones were working together to bomb the bill and building it first and something went wrong or Jones was working alone and decided the damn close house for some other reason what was close role and all this was he ever investigated. I don't know because the F._B._i.. Won't even tell me if there is an investigation so what happened between the two of them we know they were involved. Financially police found a contract for twenty two acres of land that Jones bought from cluff for fifty thousand dollars. There was also an account that would pay out to cluff in the event of Jones's death but but I can't tell if any of that connects to the bombing cluff is never given any straight answers about Jones or Lavoix or bomb anabela office shortly after the bombing the clubs packed up what few belongings they could salvage aged moved to Idaho again. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong they only confirmed that they did in fact service search warrant here at the family's new house and also at the families old house the site of the explosion Lahj. We're back in Panetta. There's nothing where the house used to be. Just an empty lot filled with mud. I walked the whole perimeter of it while we were there. Thinking some answer about what really happened might present itself but all I got were muddy shoes and nervous looks from a guy standing quietly on his porch across the street watching Ryan. I poke around like Weirdos so after I got home I got in touch with cluff on facebook and ask for an interview finally after a few messages is he wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past he said I typed at a response immediately that it wasn't trying to compromise that happiness but that it seemed like his side of the story had really come out what in his mind was the truth why the held in Glen Jones Have Josh's phone number tattooed on his body. I hit send but by then cluff had blocked me months later I found an email forum and I reached out again and I tried one more time to get cleft to say something. I sent him the evidence I had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin Voi- Finnigan he responded quote. Those were terrible times for my family which we're trying to move past at the I did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. However the peninsula bombing came to target Josh in Tiffany cluff instead of a be a lamb building it appeared of begun as a response to the death of a Lavoix finicky him it was in some ways a continuation in the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at Bundy ranch in the years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs there have been more and more acts of extremist violence popping up in the the news and it seems like each time the radical ideas that inform the Patriot movement come up to turn to the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight like a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent imminent liberals like Barack Obama Hillary Clinton and George Soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy ball? He's also active on social media and often posted anti liberal messages and conspiracy theories to twitter or Georgia man killed a cop considered himself a sovereign citizen and nation unto himself reclaim to be a sovereign citizen meaning. He didn't recognize police authority or the shooter in New Zealand who've been fire onto mosques because of what he saw as a so called white genocide New Zealand is a nation stricken tonight a self-declared white supremacist gunned down Muslims at prayer today not to give the Bundy's too much credit but no bombs went off at now here. No shots were fired at Bunkerville so when this season of Bundy Ville we're not actually talking to any BUNDY's instead we're talking about the people who picked up where they left off the remnant of their movement and then we're following the violence following the ripple outward from avoids boy's death through `Pinaka. Try and figure out what's coming next where it'll be coming from what the pinnacle bombing probably is is a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies how those ideologies become violent but I couldn't ask Glenn Jones why he blew up the clubs house or if the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone someone who is at Bundy ranch who knew Lavoix Finchem and who also tried to blow up a government building in the summer of two thousand sixteen and when I called him up. He said he'd be happy to tell me anything. I wanted to know it's February twenty nine thousand nine hundred and I met a truck. Stop outside Salt Lake City Utah. It's just after four o'clock. The sons already going down range of snow covered mountains looms nearby producer Ryan Harrison. I have come here to meet with a guy named bill keebler and we're nervous. Keebler has been involved with the Patriot movement since Bunkerville where he he says he ran security afterward. He started his own militia fifty seven year old. William Keebler is known by the F._B._i.. As commander of a citizen militia group called the Patriots Defense Force in fact Keebler has been portrayed as one of the most dangerous people in the Patriot treatment according to the court documents F._B._i.. Undercover agents infiltrated Keebler Group and took part in field training exercises they say keebler talked to members of his militia about quote going on the offensive in June of two thousand any sixteen just a month before Glenn Jones Flip the club family home in Panetta Keebler hit the button to detonate what he thought was a bomb set to destroy a building owned by the Bureau of Land Management. Thought is the keyword there it turns out. His bomb was a fake given to him by undercover F._B._i.. Agents who had embedded in his group even before his arrest Bill Keebler thought there was some grand conspiracy of play and that for some reason the government was out to him personally the thing is it turned out he was one hundred percent right about that from long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. When Glenn Jones shot himself in the head waiting for his bombs to blow up and Panetta he took with him answers to all sorts of questions about why he did what he did but by talking to Keebler I hope we might learn something about how right wing bombers operate and what they're thinking why does someone in the Patriot movement like diffuse or press the button and why now Keebler Jones had both set off their bombs in the summer of two thousand sixteen four to five months after the mail your? Occupation in Oregon had resolved so what changed after Mao here today anything smokes in Coffee Real Quick Bill Keebler looks like shriveling old ranch hand and he's got leathery skin smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery where at a denny's he's tucked into the corner of the truck stop for most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company Creator gator outfitters off in Georgia crews we ease into the conversation Ryan than I are just trying to get a feel for who were talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. In the army. Eleven Bravo Infantry <hes> went to a lot of specialized training for bed and when Germany I'll ended there. I think one of Friday Saturday morning I woke up on Russian communist Russian border says it also knows his way around computers due to do codes nutrition they can't break and they still have nothing good anyway even says he has a black belt. In Kung Fu studied numerous rumors are ranked black Belton for different styles <hes> eighty six eighty six before board of Masters and I presented the new system he says he he created his own system of Kung-fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly Rambo own and I should be clear I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but I also wasn't in Utah to figure you're out whether he got third place in the Kung Fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the F._B._i.. But I that meant convincing him that we weren't f._B._I.. Agents raided talk to people like I'm going to be honest way would surprise present both David pulled out badge. I just went shutting what I've seen because in keebler swirled everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me story with me. I've been borrow town for years. I came here because I wanted to hear Keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent I couldn't get answers from Glenn Jones who police said had wanted to target a government building so I had hoped keebler would help me understand why a person will try to detonate a bomb but just a few minutes into the interview. What I'm really wondering is how did the F._B._I.? Decide to focus on this guy is this <music> old man in poor health really the most dangerous person Patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing thing the verifiable part of Bill Keebler story starts in two thousand fourteen when he spent about two weeks in Bunkerville Nevada on Cliven Bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the Bundy's hadn't paid their grazing fees and the beal had come to collect their cattle the fact that Keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back then Keebler says he was a member of the the oath keepers a militia associated with the Patriot movement and by his account at Bundy ranch he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. We've not actually stop a lot of people alive. I like them. Play up there. <hes> how stop some people didn't WanNA shoot people when I've got mad about him for the game I fix he wanted to start the war. Do I want to WHO said I won't fire shot just to get started because if one shot had ever went off up there it's done you don't care if it was a firecracker backfire necessary base. Oh my God I hope Accardo have backfired you know or so might those down firecracker on the ground things with that volatile. I mean it was ready. I don't want to Rehash Bundy ranch but the long short of it is no cars backfired. no-one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the Bundy's cows were released released the agents left Keebler was pumped up in the Patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short at Boston Tea Party <hes>. I'm not apparent to show but we're not like that but it was a wakeup call soon the following months back at home in Utah Keebler started his own militia. He called it Patriots Defense Force or P._D._F.. It was a group of a half a dozen or so guys the got together mostly talk about self reliance basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. rappers talked a lot about going off grid about what to do when shit hit the Fan Keebler even showed people how to raise chickens rabbits for meat then a few months later keebler says he got a phone call from someone he'd met at Bunkerville McCoy finicky. He wanted me to basically come in his place and give him the support that we gave abundance. You'll recall that lavoix Finnigan was a leader of the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation was eventually killed by police at a roadblock in Oregon and that he was the cousin of Josh Wash cloth whose house was blown up Panetta but back then Finnigan was just a rancher in Arizona and Keebler said he was building up to his own bunkerville style standoff with the B._L._M.. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but but I do know that around this time in the late summer of Twenty fifteen finish Adam was becoming agitated with the Bureau of Land Management Bill Governor said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. What's he was making that pretty obvious on youtube page? No none of these bureaucrats do we allow here Monte County none of ever accountable to US Mohave County. This is the definition of tiered from the way Keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and Keebler who advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics to anyone who listen was happy to bring his militia. Come help him prepare for the confrontation at the Bundy's. We got there after the fat. If we knew it was coming we could be prepared. They were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come at just take all his cattle but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for Phoenix. Cattle records from the beal showed Vinnicombe only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven Bundy owed more than a million dollars crude over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup end up that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop Finchem from preparing for the worst or Keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the Bundy's had done at Finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto the land where he grazes cattle and then spring a trap don't mean ambush assault and kill and shoot none of that cracks where everybody at the plan was to let the beal. I'm on the property and then using excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out certain place when they come up hill them cattle. They can't get up hill keebler a saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what I saw a Bundy ranch or an Oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and I had to wonder then. What are they going to keep them? Hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before I could get an answer Keebler told me that another member of his militia wanted it to blow them all up Brad Miller's idea what he's bom up Keebler says Brad Miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that the first of all you killing mask cattle to you're killing whoever's truck but Brad Miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass? He was actually an undercover F._B._i.. Agent in fact at varying times there were three confidential informants and three undercover F._B._i.. Agents in Keebler militia so if you take away keebler the F._B._i.. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of P._D._F.. Militia Gotcha all this time Finnigan Keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents by the Spring of Twenty sixteen federal agents had been keyboards militia for more than a year trying to quote take his temperature according to text messages between agents on the surface. It seemed like a standard F. B. I. Undercover Operation We for the bad guys do bad stuff and then take him down but the more I talked to Keebler in the more the government blocked me from accessing his court records the more I started wonder about what role the government was really playing in the P._d._f.. Militia between the two agents and Leonard Informant Dave became the most active when we went down to Arizona to voice they pay for the whole trip but <hes> I'm. They were a good financial support and we needed that according to court documents the F._B._i.. Agent who who went Brad Miller taunted Keebler this was the same guy who keebler says had the idea to blow up federal agents unfinished comes property and he said that the Patriots and P._d._f.. Were just quote facebook fucking Nazis in other other words guys who have a lot to say online but never take action in real life Keebler in response suggested the group do some recon of potential targets in Salt Lake City agent Brad Miller core documents say was one of the most active members of the militia suggested targeting Muslims but keebler said he didn't know how to find any so miller offered to Google a mosque Mitch. I know we're pulling up to a mosque. I and I said Look you've lost your mind. Now looking around I said all of you've lost your F- mine's not mainly to Brag as we were clashing there he said but what would it take. Why couldn't we so I'll tell you why you can't? I said you see that thing behind your your left shoulder looks under this gas towers. You'd be amazed what sending things cameras monitor buildings. That's that's one reason. Can't you know getting a modest place second. Look at the terrain and I'll starting to break it down to tell him I said now he noted for you got look over people walking out coming in and out playing basketball. You see that those are kids. This women children are playing basketball shit. y'All loss again so the group moved on and drove past a bureau of Land Management Office Miller suggested that they mail a bomb to it or use a truck bomb to blow it up. Dude gone see no. That's feeling though you know how many people in do you know what this whole. Scouting mission was going nowhere. They thought Keebler take the lead and blowing up government buildings but he just wasn't biting if it sounds like the F._B._i.. Was Pushing Keebler to take some sort sort of drastic action. It turns out. Even some of their own agents were worried about that in court documents their records of text messages one of the other undercover F._B._i.. Agents who went by the name Jake Davis sent to was handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open Pandora's box in a way by taking keebler to a mosque he might not have found on his own. I'm worried about our liability. If he happens to go back sometime on his own in another text Davis worried about Miller's continued taunting of keebler quote. I'm all for pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas like when Miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in Dennis head over the course of their investigation the F._B._I.. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the West to Patriot movement gatherings they paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally only in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal. 'EM FACILITIES WAY OUT in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal building that he had scouted near Finnigan's ranch Vinnicombe by hi then had been killed in a traffic stop in Oregon over the next couple of months the F._B._I.. made him of fake pipe bomb and then on June twenty-first Twenty Sixteen Keebler and some of his militia traveled to Arizona and set the bomb outside the building keyboard. Push the button on a fake detonator the F._B._i.. Gave Him and then the next morning they arrested him. Tops Picnic brought me handcuff misguide comes in addressed a bigger negotiating green on his face loud she mr cable trying to bust your sorry ask for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants in two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert in almost makes you wonder if the F._B._i.. Hadn't been around would keillor's militia have just kept on raising chickens cooking rabbits. It's being facebook. Nazis entrapment is very hard to prove in court. <hes> the burden is it. I is on the defense rather than on the prosecution to bring bring the case. This is Karen Greenberg. She's the director of the Center on National Security Forum Law the school in New York City. I asked her about the legality of the F._B._I.. Pushing a guy like keebler you when you go to court or when you read the court documents they look very much like you know somebody was placed in the midst of this group was listening and picked up information. Asian that was used useful and usable right and then the other end of the spectrum which is who provided the munitions who provided the plot who provided the ideology who it's it's at hooper who really ran ran this if you look at the active elements of it I just want to note that Greenberg's primary focus is international terrorism and she haughty groups but there's some crossover between the cases. She's watched and the Keebler case so so like is it common in the cases pieces than you've watched like this that that someone will say like here's a bomb or hey. Why don't we Google mosque for you or hey how this or do this or in this case is individual keebler was like I don't know guys like you know Oh and then we went and interviewed him he said I guess I just got it in my mind? That's what I should do at a certain point okay so the F._B._I.'s defense on this and it's worth thinking about because it's it's got legitimacy to it which is look. I could have been all kinds of and if I could get them to do it. Don't you think al Qaeda get them to do it. And it works with a jury it works and because what they say to the jury is would you have said yesterday this F._B._i.. Guy So maybe that's the logic to the keebler case that if the feds could get to Keebler some with a plan and target and connections to a bombmaker could too so he belonged in jail but this interpretation of the law is fairly new and controversial basic a cruel that they're called the attorney. General guidelines required an F._B._i.. Agent to have a reasonable indication that criminal activity may occur in the nineteen ninety s Michael German was an undercover F._B._i.. Agent agent who went inside militia groups in the Pacific northwest he works for the Brennan Center for Justice now but it's previous work was infiltrating White Supremacist Neo Nazi groups. German tells me that before nine eleven in order to to investigate someone the F._B._i.. Needed a reasonable indication that that person was about to commit a crime pretty low standard. I hit most most F._B._I.. Agents wake wake up in the morning pretty suspicious but after nine eleven the Bush administration wrote new guidelines allowing the F._B._i.. To investigate pretty much anyone. Why would you want to investigate somebody? You don't have a reasonable factual basis to believe are doing something wrong. I mean this doesn't make any sense and clearly what it opens. Up Is the opportunity to to target people who who you don't like German says that in order to watch someone all the F._B._i.. Needs is a theory that maybe that person could commit a crime someday in the future initially it was mostly used against Muslims but has broadened out because it's a successful tactic as far as the F._B._i.. Is concerned it is broadened out other groups and my concern with that is your targeting. The lowest hanging fruit right not pretty much describes keebler the low hanging fruit after sitting in talking with him for three hours. I'm not convinced he could put a bomb plot together. He didn't have any targets identified. You didn't know how to build a bomb and and when it's defense attorney found those text messages at the F._B._I.. Waffling about whether or not they were putting crazy ideas into crazy guys head government offered him a plea deal. Even keebler says the F._B._I.. Got To him well they was he'll a bit determined to do something and I guess I kinda. Let it get my head that maybe if we did something to cutler mode kind of like a warning signal. There are two ways to look at Keebler I as a man with the potential to commit violence silence because the F._B._i.. May Have given him the bomb but he still hit the button and to be honest. It's easier to see him that way as an off his rocker militia member but that's probably too easy of an answer because whatever he did he probably L.. We wouldn't have been able to do it without the F._B._I.'s help. So how much blame does he really deserved. Whichever version of Bill Keebler is more accurate guy we're talking to here at Denny's is a paranoid man who thinks to the government may actually be justified in that paranoia at one point in our conversation he went silent and then told us that we were under surveillance? He based on US Shit. Okay we'll be in watched washed F._A.. Or form where do you just want bud you yet yeah for two years the F._B._i.. I tracked Bill Keebler and now he sees them everywhere. They're watching him when he smokes in his backyard. He goes to the grocery store. They're hiding in plain sight serving coffee at Denny's just to get to him. It's not everyday you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and I have to say for a while talking to Keebler. I felt like the F._B._I.. Had totally missed the mark and basically manipulated otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when I asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work your ideal situation with the federal government the state government would that look like like what would that would that running their own themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be the the government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs. He says that the government can do it's thing trading with China in Korea but is no damn business running Utah Georgia or Texas then he starts talking about how Muslims are taking over schools. You can't do a pledge of allegiance in our school with now we got Muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like Muslims James. I asked Keebler. Give me an example where this was happening but he just said number places yeah they have taken over host cities. They WANNA stop prayer. They won't stop all the American stuff boy scouts and everything I make an Islam they're out in the streets right mean with hundreds of imbalanced shutdown whole rose in concert standing over mixture. Nobody eruption are you serious badly tanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup. Draft will end April Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best and slaughtering Muslims in the streets of America at the worst and it's all informed by his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this is the kind of talk brought the F._B._I.. To him don't cops now. They're dressed up. They got well. It looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god it was preaching Christianity to up there and he's been arrested. It's on the Internet right now need to get homework. You think the federal you think the federal government is involved in that or you just think that it should be no shock at this point to tell you that Keebler is also also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him and HE HATES BARACK. Obama thinks he's a part of some deep state plot to turn America into Muslim only nation but his the agreement that they put him in the president isn't too he would make way for more Muslims to be of getting the United States Ness. What's actually come out recent? I wanted to news some reporters. Here has made president of more Muslims. Yes that's the arranged to be able. I love like Soros is finding a lot of a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born they keep alive long enough. The Oregon's developed in Joachin and hardship for parts at this point in our interview Keebler is looking at Ryan than I like. We're crazy like how do we not know any of this. I don't know none of this. We're looking at Keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe this stuff at this point in our conversation. It was hard to know how to continue talking to Keebler. I feel like I understand how far down a conspiratorial spiritual rabbit hole. You have to be nor to detonate a bomb that helps me understand Glenn Jones to but at the same time Keebler is a big and that bigotry has clouded his entire perspective on the world keebler his this whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups this is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author Jesse Walker to help with a guy like Keebler in context Walker wrote a book called the United States of of Paranoia. I wanted to understand the rule that conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in the Cold War era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the John Birch society sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties sixties from fierce where all the <hes> the enemy is based in Moscow furious where the enemy is based in New York and <hes> manipulating Moscow and then in the nineties after the Cold War ended events like Ruby Ridge in Waco L. happened conspiracy shifted again but in the nineteen nineties you lose the context of the Cold War and so it's much easier to just sort of see Washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the Internet and while I'm not so who who argues that the Internet made people more paranoid made people more conspirists I do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who had previously been much more <hes> separate from one another. You know Keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for target for their anger he was in the army fighting communism. When the Cold War ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called Patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and Muslims and women in an abortion doctors the bill and George Soros Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama the deep state? He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask Keebler. Where's all this going in his mind during the Obama Administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely ran me to Lesser Central Command Post Him we'll go from there? We start operations at at that point that would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's what's think trump declared martial law it would be more controlled manner well? He's not come after Patriots. Relation do not know now she there you go pushing a racist. I asked you know they got an able oh so angry when I asked him. If this entire world shaded conspiracies government cabals it's really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about Sharia law and evasions invasions at the border how Muslims are plague in Christian nation like America. He tells me I'm off base to ask if this all really comes down to bigotry Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas. He's not willing to back down from them that how much is clear when Ryan awesome at different question. What do you think happens if the Democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges abroad? What do you think happens with the Patriot? I'll that's all just what I'm here seeing on the Internet. All bets are off. Was I'll bet you off take their bill. Keebler guy who tried to blow up government building in who lives on a steady stream of hate from the Internet says that he's had enough if anything were ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are putting retaliation. They want revenge. They won't payback for a lot of things his abortion crap what had milivoy what has happened our children what has happened to the our streets whereas in our schools people want <hes> retribution. They want what Shit Stop. I still don't know what to make Keebler. I'm not sure you can really tell us anything about Glen Jones but if you look at Keebler on what changed before four and after the Bunkerville and Malheur standoffs the biggest differences that afterward the F._B._i.. Turner's world upside down pushed him toward violence. It's not illegal to believe racist things. Our country is built on the the idea that you have the right to complain about the government so it's not really clear to me at the F._B._I.'s own conspiring to get keebler help. Take a dangerous guy off the streets for a few years or made a blowhard into a radical who could snap if the political winds change but what I do think keebler case makes clear is that he's somebody who can be influenced into taking action keillor's paranoia and belief in nearly every conspiracy he comes across seems to open this crack in his worldview that seemingly anyone can exploit. He's an attack dog waiting for a command. It happened with the F._B._i.. When he pushed the button and happened was Lavoix finicky him when he plotted trap beal agents in a memo included with his court records? The government wrote that after keebler pushed the button on their bomb he told the agents this isn't about Lavoix. It's what he stood for. So keebler Glenn Jones make at least two people in two months timeframe invoking Finnigan's his name is they carried out a violent action which got me wondering about how many more people influenced by what finicky supposedly stood for and if those people really knew what he stood for or if they had just as keebler might say read it on the the Internet Phantom seems to have this outsized influence on the Patriot movement because he died so why does some deaths fade away and others become catalysts for violence. That's next time on Bundy Ville that was Lisa Tilly host of Bundy Ville. This episode was written and produced by Leah Ryan has and me Peter for Greg Music and sound design by Robbie Carver Bonneville has editorial oversight from Kelley Stout Mike Dang and Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda especial. Thanks David Stocky.

Finnigan Keebler cliven Bundy Panetta Keebler Jones Glenn Jones Oregon keebler Josh cluff Josh Ryan Harrison Lavoix Finchem Finnigan Bundy Ville federal government Bundy ranch Tiffany cluff Utah Keebler Josh cluff Nevada Bill Keebler
The Second Amendment Under Attack

Political Analytical

1:09:07 hr | 5 months ago

The Second Amendment Under Attack

"Coming to you. From the united states of america this is political analytical. I'm your host eddie hill along with rick. Warren and gordon park. Join us as we give our opinion concerning everything dealing with politics. Don't hold back so prepare for a no nonsense approach to the news and no we don't care about your feelings uncensored and no sugar coating sit back and enjoy the ride If you haven't heard about anchor it's the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain. First off it's free. There's creation tools that allow you to record. Edit your podcast right from your phone or computer anchor will distribute your podcast for you so it can be heard on spotify apple podcast and many more you can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. It's how i started. So trust me when i say anchor is the way to go. If you're making a podcast. Download the free app or go to anchor dot. Fm to get started. Hello everybody and welcome to political analytical. I'm your host hill along with other hosts i've Gordon deep park. And i have rick worn. Welcome gentlemen house and tonight. I'm doing good doing good glad to be on the show. I sent an invite over two for james tubes but he hadn't responded so i think he may be out of pocket. I'm not real sure yet and So gordon how you been doing. Oh worked last seven days straight. So i'm tired lisa. How you doing glad you could make it on and rick. What are we going up to surprise. Lisa's not backing you. Rick would've been up to basically well i was. I was gonna say this. The the boy and i decided we're going to go out and pawn jump a couple pawns out there for some ducks and we did. And there's seven ducks sitting there on that pond. there's three shots apiece and we fired six shots and he fired another one and the ducks flipped us off and blew away so basically. They're still six ducks on that bond. Yes our someplace over in canton. They flipped us off on her way out into the kansas guys. You told me you found a bucks democratic. Loads all yeah. I stood there and looked each other and laughed. And i told them i said i'm not gonna tell anybody if you don't you know so. Yeah leandra you housebreakers. Y'all go over to rig house. Because obviously he can't hit shit. I spent the majority of the day to day putting together that corral. So i'm just about getting it to where i can. Just start stringing wire. And i'll be good to go and the horse will be happy so still working on that so that's about where i'm at right now with that the deal a lot of cutting get a lot of hers this chorale type or what. It's i'm using just a some post ante-post and barbed wire and cutting down to clear out and cut down a whole bunch of brush and trees to to clear out an area for him so that's actually took the longest So we're doing good with that coming right along so y'all can tell for tonight's show we're going to be dealing with the second amendment and the possibility that getting yanked out from under us either the democrats don't have enough to yank it out from underneath us. They just don't they can attack ammunition supplies. I reload supplies. Things that aren't protected by the second amendment because facing guys when the second amendment was written the greatest thing that you had to try and find was dry powder he could make your own wafting at of anything and lead balls. I mean granted the you know you typically had some material to make those with and the shots were round but you could get away with making your own ammunition fairly easily so nowadays. The stuff is so precise everything is. I'm so well protected and so menu you know everybody's got down to where people use micrometres riser with the bullets. And and you know it. It's just a lot of people out there who aren't going to take that kind of care. Well here's one of the problems that i was hearing about is that they're talking about now doing a mandatory buyback mandatory in other words. You don't have any choice but to let them by your weapons back. Ar fifteen ak47's fees You know You name it. I mean it's just fives. i mean. Whatever you have that could be classified as an assault rifle per se tactic or tactical type rifles or anything that has you know high capacity magazines they want and they don't want you to have it because they don't think we need to hunt deer with it but i've got news for the second amendment was created so we could go hunt deer right and try new was not in. I'm gonna put something on on the comments that everybody can go. Check out there. It's called ghost gutter. Yeah and they just outsource has been their third. Outsourcing was done so it's not a bad bad deal for those of us you know what goes gunner. Is the law states. That if you buy okay let me back. Up an ar. Ten fifteen comes into several pieces of comes with the lower incomes as an upper Cain the lower being the part that has the handle or the stock which also got the serial number. It has the. It's the part that makes it work. The parts that has to be signed off for in registered if you purchase it not the upper that is correct now knowing this. There's a company out there who has created what's called forty percent blanks forty percent cut out of lower. Ar is the only is at the point to where it doesn't have to be registered. It's just a block of edge just block of metal right. It's gotten the general shape of a are ten or fifteen. You put this in your ghost gunner and you use the open source code. That's on the internet. Plug your laptop into it. Run the open source core and it cuts the other sixty percent and it does not have to have a serial number now see week so they sell blanks for a are tens. Ar fifteen they finally got around to the nine hundred eleven platform. The glock platform is out as well as the Regular revolver platform while. So you know. There's always going to be those people. There's always going to be the people that you know. You can take our guns away. But there's not going to prevent anything like what they did in paris a few years back. They have all the guns in paris. So what are the mass what the people committing mass murderer. Mass homicide was now. One guy used a knife. The knives used the damn bus. When you take all the buses service you know. I heard a story from a guy up in england where they're not allowed to have guns. He had a shotgun hidden. And you'd had it hidden for many many many many years anyway. His home got broken into and these guys were armed and they proceeded to stab him. He mannix getaway very very wounded and went after he got away. He made it to where. Here's a shotgun was and he pulled his shotgun and fired on these guys and killed one of them mood at the other one and he's still serving time in prison for murder inside his home inside his own home that's the other doctrine that they're going to try to take from us as the castle doctrine right. We have the right to ourselves inside of our home. We will no longer have that right. Isn't that frigging crazy so if they do away with the castle doctrine they names few mandatory buybacks. What's that gonna do the united states. And how the hell are we going to get it back james. How're you doing buddy. Glad you could make it on man. Well on here james gonna do. Is what a bunch of cowboys used to do. A bunch of bulls and it's called castration. Any all the way. It's gonna fix america's to have that operation that some people are having it's called out a dicta- me same thing bipedal hysterectomy and as well. You have kizer me. I didn't it only gave me two. Centimeter says scary af. Yes it is lisa and you know. And it's they're they're really pushing for a biden is trying to do mandatory buybacks. He's gonna. i'm sure that's not going to work out real well for him. He's going to criminalise anybody who owns one and doesn't give it up which your normal law abiding citizens are gonna end up. Yeah there go. James are going to end up in deep trouble. If they find out you have one and you know and then to top it it is. They're probably going to start limiting or getting rid of the ammunition that we have for these weapons to where we don't have any any bullets at all for anything and if you do not reload well think. That's that's the thing that can do. They can't they can't really go against our second amendment which they are doing right now. They're trying to go against that. They can limit the mo and stuff like that so that that could shut things down these. I'm hearing a whistling at least says. Guess i'm a criminal. We're all criminals early. So i'm looking at it. Nineteen john. jay. And i'm looking at the a are fifteen sitting over there. I guess i'm a criminal. You know so those are all but those are all the pictures of the ones who used to own that are there. Those are the ones that you still have. You know. I went fishing the other day and i. I don't know what happened. You know out there in the lake just shit happens loss. Your whole damn thing didn't is does not now real quick for great logan real quick Using your knowledge of the constitution. What was the second amendment actually created for the situation where now the second amendment was originally created for the people to be able to be guaranteed the right to carry their arms against a tyrannical manacled. Government binga. It has nothing to do with going out whitetail hunting. It has nothing to do with going hunting period to feed your family so the fact that these weapons that we have half thirty round magazines when we only need one or two to hunt with it has nothing to do with any of that. Correct correct right. That's to do with our ability to todd to shed off a article government now. This is the point to where i wish i. I'm gonna really go back a little bit here and see how many of you guys were cultural stars. But i wish i had bill. And ted's excellent phone booth ally lie. And i wish i could go back to pick up george washington benjamin franklin alexander alexander hamilton. Wolf dude. you wouldn't give them time. You would give them a heart attack if they saw what. This government system of ours has done. I wonder how long they would have stood before. They started another american revolution. Yeah let's talk about the militias. Do you know every state has a right to alicia. And i have to wonder what what's happening and transpiring as far as a militia is concerned not only in kansas texas. And every place else like that. What is the continuity of a militia and does it exist. The continuity of a militia is a state organized militia. The governors of each state have power over there recognize militia's governor abbot instead in texas and that liberal governor. You have up there rig. They have a list of every recognized Militia who's involved in it and what they are what their military capabilities are and that is in case that we are ever invaded their first order of business is to call up our militia each state militia. And put it towards those lines so we can give the military time to get set up and help with combat. That's the same thing with the federal national guard. That's what they are designed for now if the state militias are getting more and more and more to where they're not much better than those democrats shotgun shells. I was talking about earlier. Narrow wester no hit near not gonna do anything. They are scared. The only militia that i have seen that have had a set of balls to draw down on federal officers to enforce the constitution of the united states of america has been the nevada the a knee ranch at the bundy ranch Now i know. James has something there in his lap. He's kind of keeping off camera. I want James a jump in there real quick and tell us what he's gotten and talk a little bit of blank out the screen eddie. Yeah i don't know if it's a legal things like that but you said thirty round. I got mr twenty right here You know. I don't. I don't get why band. Thirty round mag or whatever the case may be when twenty rounds is just as effective And yeah. I don't know if it'd be legal for show but i do have Helga sitting in my lap right now. I'm very proud of But you know. I wonder i wonder what would happen. Like if alive right now. what would he say about the whole thirty round meg back in the day man it was like the muskets and all this other stuff right at right. Honestly what would he say about this. You know what what was the founding fathers about. I wish i could hear what's going on. I wish i could grab him by his fucking here to drag him into the future and let him see this in war and this is what you're fucking doings have created in american -gratulations. You fucking moron. Would have abe lincoln due to you man. I got argue. What gordon listen gordon. In fact i cup by the way but in fact you know you kinda went on and you gotta my curiosity go now brother. I gotta know what his would it. How did a pissing your cheerios. I wanna know give. You always says educate me. Now i'm gonna let you tell the story you do much better. Abraham lincoln is the single greatest trader in the united states history. The united states was founded on. Okay before i get off into that story. James my cup for breast cancer awareness. Do you have something against breasts. That's my first question. Second okay blackbeard's matt black beers matter. So named joe abraham lincoln. The the united states was founded upon a small federal government and a larger state government governing. Their people that lived in their states people who are local to their constituents having a better opportunity in more of a better ability to be able to govern in the people's interests if you think about that movie the patriot. When mel gibson stood up and said why should i trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away this is what he was referring to abraham lincoln when he used slavery as a pedestal to win the civil war which created a north win. He's squelched the state's rights to govern themselves and created the federal government. As we know it today he took power away from the state's government and the state governor's to do simple things like set prices of their of their cash crop to negotiate terrorists and treaties with other states. He took that ability away from those state governments and handed over to a federal government. He handed it over to three thousand tyrants one mile away so in other words he put it into slavery and by doing that on the federal level he encompass the power of the are in. Use it as leverage for his Political gain or campaign or something like that slavery's we're fighting because we want to end slavery we want to end slavery. We want to end slavery but at the same time over here. We're taking all the states rights away. We're taking your governors reds way. We're taking your local sheriff's rights away. We're taking the rights away. If you as an individual person to do what you need to do to be able to protect your family. But i know the the abolishment of slavery did happen right. But the the individual abolishment of rights throughout the states happen part of the surrender of app. Matic's how was win the part of when all the paperwork was filed. That took away a lot of the state's rights to be able to succeed. That's why there's the argument. Today can texas really secede we in our paperwork. When we signed up to become part of the united states we left a clause in there that we can be able to the original. Louisiana purchase can be nolan void in. We can go back to our original state. Not the modified k when the north won the civil war part of the treaty and part of his the government. Federal government's ranking mission of taking the states. Back into the united states in granting pardons for lack of a better expression to all of the southern soldiers instead of putting up against the wall and shooting them was they had to sign off on the fact that this is how this is gonna work from this day forward. You lose your right to secede you lose your right to govern your constituents with the federal government is taking him over because obviously because you were since you part of the seditious sedition. You don't have the ability to run your states as well as we do. So we're taking that from you. And he used the platform of abolishing slavery to get to end. Our rights. sounds like a democratic move That motherfucker is the greatest trainer in american history. And i wouldn't piss kerosene on him if he was on fire in. Close up your guts on fire things. I just had to know man. I had the poke the bear little bit ahead to poke the bear. Because i heard you cut down a little bit of abe. Last time and Apparently deteriorates nice on needed. The no it's beneath me up like it was his problem. Abe lincoln then and been wanting to know. So i guess i guess an unknown now like i said i'm ignorant to your beliefs in abe lincoln so i wanted to know what you to educate you know What was the problem and everything else but have you guys. Her was popping lately in the The scene of the dominion systems. Well always talk about that. I was just about to ask you about that talking just about to ask you about that. Yeah so So i keep up with it all day. from jealous. Which is the one of the attorneys for trump. you know on the team with giuliani so The access to twenty two dominion voting machines They gave them eight hours of of forensic investigation you know forensic scientists and and You know these computers computer scientists are going there. look these things and from the Election official are one of the election board in michigan Saying that the. I wanna line you the number but also thirty. For biden trump. They passed thirty votes each through these Gains in in the end result came back to twenty six percent was more for biden at the end of the day. So you'd thirty here thirty there okay. What you're thirty thirty will now. You have twenty six more twenty six percent more for biden. The new trump. So if you have more on biden than trump. that's at that's evidence. That's that's a smoking gun right there. So if you have say Biden guy vote in trump did after passing the equal amount of votes through these machines. Hey man i mean that's something to look into investigation thing where the probably you should know. There's probable cause right there. You know to look into all this stuff. So they have forty eight hours to Within forty eight hours conclusion on these The many machines and it's not looking good. So what are you going to happen james. what do you. what do you feel. It's going to take place once a everything's done so i think what's going to happen is they're going to bring this to the Supreme court's gonna is gonna have to go through congress either way on the voting but the This this going to go through the supreme court in thing. Run probably launch an investigation into other states In see what's going on. But i think ultimately it is going to get reversed in. We're going to have trump for another four years. That's what esi now Jaren wedlock says Didn't they scrub them though. Those are the ones they probably did. And there was a court probably. Here's the thing right. There was actually three quarters The third one was to Sequester the the machines Even if fbi Say you're just some weirdo. Down the street in us some kind of frigging pedophile. Whatever in they your computers in your laptop stuff yet. Uv rays everything. Off your hard drive in jeff They had these computer scientists. And that's an show for is in computer scientists These people go in here and they pull your hard drive and they look at your data and they look at z. A. read code of a friend of mine donnie. He does the same thing he reads code and they can go back and look at your files. You've raised that you've backed up. You've you can never wipe a hard drive clean. Never everything is in better than hard drive and these guys they these guys go in there and in no all and they can pull on information so whether or not you've you've wiped it clean or you've added different things to make it. Look all nice and pretty shits and rainbows. Whatever these guys can go in the backlogs in. It's not even a file that they go in. It's just like zeros. In once they read code. This is well clean. We are going to take a quick break gentlemen and when we come back we're going to start off with rick and rick. I want you to of jump in a little bit as far as what you think they're gonna try and do with weapons. And how do you think they're gonna go about it when we get back from break. Okay nope thank you all right and So we're gonna be back here in just a few minutes. Everybody tights ano- we're gonna play a little tune be by. She lava no Thank you two zero turning cage to skip to the details Taking soon as she was seen a week another jensen added is sufficient home tv and we are back everybody and hope you enjoyed the little tune from she lava That was A little tune called red room. And it's a great group of you get a chance to go and show him some love. They're great people She's also great actress. Okay so we're starting back up again and we're going to start off with Rick who is going to be talking about the second amendment and would appears that it's going to happen for all of us once takes place. You wanna get started on that. Sure sure guys. I see a war of words. I see a world war of logistics. I see a war of not only those two combined in the senate and the house and every place else like that. But this this is going to be the ultimate war as far as congress's concern when you talk about the very second amendment of which was written for the colonials and the united states so the americas it has been at the forefront of not only our protection but our right to have and keep and bear arms and that is one thing that i wanna make quite certainly clear is that we do have that right to keep and bear arms. What it's going to happen if we have a challenge by the democratic People as far as what we can carry what we can own where we go with them and things like that is tantamount to basically a communist type state government and that's going to hurt everybody that's gonna put a lot of people on the wrong side of the law because just like the old saying says then only the criminals will have guns well. I'm going to be criminal. I don't know about you guys. Because i have no intention to follow or to allow them in my household or any of my friends that i know and i know quite a few people are not going to allow this type of governmental tyrannical efforts to suspend our rights as far as the second amendment. And i think you will see like you said it's going to take military type of strike and the essence of troops coming out and saying we're going to go house to house and you see that you're gonna see a lot of the military people it's going to lay down and say no. I'm not gonna do that to my fellow american. I've been told by troops and by military people that they would not and will not take up arms against the united states citizens. I think that's going to do rick and correct me if i'm wrong. It seems like what that's going to do is create Your normal law abiding citizens gonna turn people into It's gonna turn them like overnight into criminals for no reason. Exactly that's exactly what it's intended for and next thing you know you're going to have a billy bob and joe bob and gary bob. I'll i'll tell on gary bob or somebody like that for having a little pop gun or any way. Might they say in the old world and on streets snitch is get stitches. And that's what it's going to turn into because basically you're going to have people setting wanting to turn people in and there's probably be some kind of program dislike right now if you turn in the correct information and it's substantiated and ends up in a court of law and a guilty pleas. initiated then. We're going to give you a thousand dollars. I can see that happening. i really can. Yeah i can't to and it's that's pretty sad. It's it doesn't have gone from house to house. You know there's gonna be it's gonna end up where you're gonna have a whole lot of people that aren't and then they're gonna show up to somebody's iran and go on there to get their guns and is going to be mass. Chaos is gonna end up like the crash compound. Now real quick. Derek gordon dared wedlock when lee believe that were part of waco was a part of the david. Koresh deal was to see. How easy is it going to be to take guns away. From tex- now darren wedlock says pretty hard to see what you're shooting at. When your house is full of tear-gas james you want to answer that yell volume up. So yes so the david koresh thing Yeah they wanted to push how far they can go but the the fbi and all these people had reason to ride displays of things going on there when haywire really really fast But the second amendment simply states it. It's it's a very well stated thing regulated Being necessary to the security of a free state of free state. So how free all we right now with these mask. Mandates about security with free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed of a free state. That's what that's what you know. We're we're getting these little freedoms taken away left and right With this mask mandate in. These is going through right. Now these these pe- these people are getting their their businesses. Shut down and everything then a second wave of covid and all this other shit. That's going l. Thing you know found out today a friend of mine that i work with down in texas city Passed away two days ago and apparently from covid Forty six you know and to me you know. As far as i've known he was healthy as you know he wasn't wasn't a bodybuilder. Anything you know Kobe was his Cause of death Yeah i'm starting to find out harder and harder to so this is the second guy i know tech guy that i know in the last couple of months that passed away. Kobe you know and they're trying to push this thing. I think this whole political it is so politicized to the point that they're trying to instill fear in people and It's just one step been freedoms and like the constitution says of a free state you know a militia being necessary to the security of a free state. How free are we you know. That's one of the questions. I know you know jane are. We can't even go to the grocery store go to rick. I'm sorry my question is is also james. As far as i agree totally with what you're saying there the net constitution. And i will repeat. This says its shell not be infringed. On now. I went to high school. I pretty well understand what that means. You know i went to college. And when it says it shall not be infringed upon then basically when you have courts and you have a different political ideologies coming four saying well. That's not really. Would it leans. Excuse me but yes it does it. It means a shell not be infringed upon absolutely and One of the things ever big word ever foskit looking looking good at. Yeah deborah faucet says. Hey y'all texas sheriff's deputy said they refuse to participate in any house to house gun confiscation and the thought was ridiculous and yes it is and no no a sheriff's deputy or police officer in his right mind is going to try and go door to door especially here in texas and trying collect weapons. It's just not going to happen. People here in texas and louisiana sit injuries all day long to kill something for fun and yes we and so shell shell and should are all right policy all day long. This is what i do. Work are right. Shell is something you must do should something. That's it's it's insinuated so They shall not be infringed. That's a big thing okay. But they can't take your guns according to the second but can they limit your ammo magazines. It's stupid bullshit. I was say. Where's the difference between a twenty around a thirty round. You know what if i get it. You need to work on my aim a little better. You know well james. Here's the thing if you're talking about limiting magazines getting rid of assault type weapons. The weapons that were created are created in order to defend against a tyrannical government. Correct in my right on gordon ordinary. Correct okay. So if any weapons that the population have or can have has to be at least equal or close enough to what our government may have in order to defend against and everybody was saying well that was when it was all flint locks very true but our government all they had was flint. Lock now i understand that. There are certain things that aren't aren't you know good for just you know joe blow on the street to have like maybe a twenty millimeter cannon. Thirty millimeter cannon. You know something of that nature but if the licensed to own it if you can if you can use it if you can have it if you know how to operate it why can't you have that weapon. That's my question or seven million back or something like a three eight something like that right. That's a semiautomatic. Okay i have s chaos. That's holds thirty rounds in hosts twenty rounds whatever. The magazine showed young early as on. Hello yeah are we I i can hear you gordon. I can hear you gordon. Gordon can't hear us for some reason. I'm gonna drop gordon out. Hello okay. i'm dropping him down for a minute. So if you haven't you haven't thirty six to millimeter. You know whatever the case you can shoot one round at a time. What in between your thirty odd. Six seven six to thirty nine. My s j s. There is no difference. Gordon you got us lord meter. Not my i can hear you on. Okay here goes there. You go all right. She blows underwear. Oh shit gordon's back. So something about gordon and the. That's that loving crust. He loves crust. That liquorice flexi as nancy pelosi is fat nasty. Never mind so. I'm not going to get started. You know oh hey. Speaking of we had a show last night right it was the The paranormal show and The show was about a remote viewing so promise. Would say anything tonight. It right so remote sniffing. so remote. Sniffing flipping joe biden is a remote sniffer. Go in somebody's dirty pile of laundry. Somebody's draws the word a You know not even in a haunted house. Just like i dunno in a nursing home somewhere and start sniffen. Booties can call. Joe never sniff anyone hunters in an old folks home now. There's chances there but you know what we've been getting dropped a lot over here even like an animal shelter. That's his dogs but nutrition. He's smoking just said to bring that up. I've been waiting twenty four hours and say that. Have you guys noticed how much the word getting dropped on the show. Yes no yeah. We've been getting dropped a lot and having to restart constantly. It's crazy about the censorship yet. We're being watched totally being watched one hundred percent. I agree. yeah. I need a drink to stand by okay. I'm good so yeah. I think i think we've been. I think we're being watched the honest any platform. That's out there Right now you know. We're not i know. We're not the joe rogan experience. You know we don't have five hundred thousand people watching tonight but We're making an impact. Were putting words out there. We're putting a i. Don't wanna see an agenda but we're putting things out there in. I think people are you know there. There's these technologies out of washington type. Shit so let me ask you if nancy pelosi is one ignorance then nancy. Pelosi go to gordon's house and eat some ice cream so so let me ask you if they do. Come after you up the second amendment if they do try and get in there and not only the second amendment but if they try and rewrite some of our constitution what should people do revolt. There's got to be. We're running out of options and knowing these fools are watching. Is the whole reason why. I'm hesitant to say what i'm saying. What i'm saying in the reason. I'm saying we're running out of options that tyrannical government has already shown itself. That tree of liberty is damn thirsty. Yes sir and you can't continue to push and push and push a grand populist the people before they rise up and stop one hell of a giant mudhole in your ass. And that's what's gonna end up happening. You start having door to door searches. You start having people coming in saying. Hey we're here to inspect your house. Fine not a problem. You take one foot inside of miles. You're gonna losing thanks for lead and when we stand into civil war now. People are serious about their guns. It's just amazing. And i never thought that i would see this within the united states of america. Rick give me some words of wisdom. You what i said. Give me some words of wisdom. Okay how about this. It would be quite lies of the pennsylvania people themselves as far as an election Group that they now have been officially documented at the united states supreme court the justice court alito has ordered state to respond no later than december ninth. And this is going to have have a big vast. I mean impact on what the hell's going on with this voting and what's going on and that will fall quite centrally. In as far as the voting constituency of all the other states and what happens after that now the words of wisdom i might impart or the fact that just sit back and watch. Enjoy your coffee and see what takes place gordon. Some more wisdom words of wisdom into the range make sure your said it into at least one hundred fifty yards bingo james. You're worth of wisdom. I'm not wise. But i'll tell you this. We have a long way to go there. The you know the fourteenth. That's coming up soon They got a prison things in. I think either way it goes as he. I think us doing like the rainman thing. And now gordon's eating cottage or something like you guys are making me hungry man. I don't know what's going on but anyway these guys are much down man. Hey all arbiter. Earlier i just i saw that. Yeah took some ribs smoker By now but either way. I think we're going to be in a bind so Let's say trump gets reelected blah blah blah. You know the are gonna go nuts rig. Hey john rick If trump doesn't in you know biden unfortunately gets in this going to be discussing a. I hate to see what's going to happen there. But either way. I think we're in for a shit show So buckle up like insane in Few days is gonna prove some things. The next the next thirty six hours we should see something and Keep your eyes open. Stay away from wagner all that goto a. n. f. and or newsmax and get your information rig yondo not rick warren regatta. Young though i'm gonna to you my phone number. We need to visit gordon. You broke up. I'm gonna message. Drake are yondo when he. And i need to sit down and have a chat. Rick has a nice wreck does really nice wreck. My question is this. Yeah my question is i. No james happens if these deadlines are met what happens if these democratic states say no we sit around certified our votes for basically cough or they go against the judge's order. Yes they go to jail. It's gotta go through congress. It has to go through congress either way right but so that's not the question i'm asking. I know what the process should be. I know what the process is to be. What if the democratic run state of georgia and the democratic run state of wisconsin. What if they tell them fuck off. Art votes have been certified. You don't get access. It's competitive saying they're in violation of work order knew exactly would he. I know what you're saying. Would gordon right. Now is what he's saying is one of the state says. No indication is what it is. Would you gonna do about it. And the federal government steps in and says you know what we can accept that result so the federal government at that point is stepping on state. Mess with gordon. Say and so what happens then. That's exactly what he saying right. Now what you taught so. Now we're stepping on a state as a federal government and now we're tyrannical on this one st and then what happens now. You got a flash and the federal government and state right but in the state of michigan all. But i think would probably end up happening is you would end up with federal marshalls with arrest warrants. Whoever's in charge or it doesn't matter because the federal state all they have to do is postpone it was mandated by the supreme court of the united states grand kids. That's like what happened. I believe i believe that This happened with j. k. When george wallace said. I'm not gonna let this color person into school. J. of case at their and mandated back to him the full brunt of the military force and sat there and walked all over him. It's going to be interested. That's that's that's some good background to get. That's something that's something like. Would what happens if georgia pennsylvania and nevada in all these folks say you know what fuck it we're just gonna certify nutter level because we're our own state we can do hell we want. We're going to certify. So what are you gonna do. You're going to step in my yard as a federal government and what to do. They might point. Then we're not governing ourselves. What does the state constitution main. If we can govern ourselves day by anka's you're gonna come in here but but see. That's what i'm getting at once a drop dead day guys. I'm sorry what's something to think about. Something i'm gonna look into what's our drop dead. Date is december fifteen right. This has to be wrapped up by december. Fifteen tomorrow is already. The fourteenth team gordon orleans so he's mandated by the night all they have to do. Isn't i a week and it's done the states closer. We're giving you nail biting time but you would figure for in election an election on a federal level. they would will on that you know per state Or even per but see you're also you're also talking about in federal offense. A federal crime violation of federal of judges ordered a federal judge order from the supreme court. This isn't just an you know saying. Oh i i didn't pay my traffic ticket. It doesn't matter you know they could undo allot of shit regardless appointed. Here's what i'm looking at. If they buy to the fourteenth there's a state say we've already certified our votes. There's nothing you can do about it until the fourteenth we certified. We did our job it is. What is the supreme court knowing in. And and even trump going in and forcefully taking that stuff and forcing the federal mandate. It's too late too late. It but is it. It is according to the constitutional technically according to the petition tradition there. There's a lot of shit that they're not doing right to but after the fourteen tradition if after the fourteenth and come back and say you know what according to the evidence and according to everything. Donald trump should be president. Do you think that. The supreme court of the united states is going to force the issue after the fourteenth. They might if not. They're going to have a big revolt. Now but guess. What k- tion of america are we willing to stand up and do it. I have a feeling that we are. I think so. I think we are to think so. I think we going gordon. You you listen to earn you. Listen to walton. Johnson though g. You're a supercenter right there. Well that's about show. We're we're we're out of time. So it's closing statement odds on these clauses statements are going to start off with rick. Well guys i think that it is again a rallying cry rallying cry for everybody to not give up that constitution was written for a damn reason. Okay i stand behind that constitution. I have relatives. And i'm sure all of you have relatives that you have set there and watch them put their hand on the bible and said they would defend the constitution and right now. We need that defense. We need those people that want to be able to take the bull by the hornets as it were and defend what the constitution is all about the fans. What this american land is all about. Defend the way of life that we have had. And i hope play. I can pass down to my children and my grandchildren and not have to go through this shit chill ever again. Amen rick and i'll tell you every police officer in every person in the military takes that oath to defend the constitution. The united states. Let's hope nobody forgets that Gordon well my my final words are going to be along the same lines as as years that he look the constitution of the united states. When it was written it's not open to interpretation. It's not open to what you think it's open to what it sets and that's it. Our country was founded on a certain set of an alien writes that all men were created equal to change any word of it to try to make it quote meet modern times. Modern modern circumstances doesn't work like that. No they can't work like that so my my whole deal is tonight is to everybody needs to look at it hard and say how far am i willing to go with us. How far is too far. I used to have a friend of mine. Who said that. If you'll stand for this kinda shit. Then you'll kneel before anybody else. So are we ready to stand. Are we ready to go. Grab some me. Pats stand absolutely james idea in a. I think it's to the point now where you know. Every american knows there. There is a constitution and but not every american knows. What's in that constitution. I think everybody at this point right now in life in in every that we're going through right now niece ago in review the constitution and look it up and gordon said it's not up for interpretation. Go and look at and study. Which i'm guilty of not doing myself. I need to go and look at it at the same thing too I i agree with debra That within the next couple days we're going to see some things drop and it is critical Krona we're a fourth down on four Country right now and there's some things that's going to happen with the next several days Four to five six days. We're going to know what's going to happen If it leans one way or the other big things are going to have the way be ready. We prepared prepare your family in. Educate people You know. I talked to my dad earlier. In he is one hundred percent. Ken's gonna be in office even though he voted trump. they listen to mainstream media Little bit want here but whatever but get out there in review the constitution and know your rights. No no what you have an keep your eyes open for the next couple of days. Buckle up it's going to get nuts. Yeah i agree with you. James and i have to chime in over here. I'm going to put a danielle's Comment appear on a as part of her closing statement because she writes a lot on here rewriting. The constitution would be like trying to rewrite the ten commandments. And that's very true because the ten commandments. You cannot rewrite those deborah faucet as well. She says thanks. Y'all love you guys. Keep the faith and don't give up. We are strong. America will always be the land of the free. And i agree deborah and i honestly think that we're gonna come out victorious whether trump gets in or not i think americans will stand up and fight for the constitution of fight for what is right. At least i hope they do all military police as well Everybody takes an to defend and protect the constitution. The united states. If you're a police officer or your military keep that in mind because remember something may be asked of you to do something that is against the constitution of the united states and you can lawfully lawfully declined because they cannot ask you to do anything that is one against the law into against the constitution of the united states and you took an oath to uphold it so remember to uphold that do not give in to orders that are not lawful and they're not constitutionally sound and that's That's my closing statement. Ever foskit does say the whole world is pulling for us in trump. I i really believe that because we new zealand. They are as well so until next time. You all take care. Please take care. Pay close attention to what's going on this week because everything's writing on so let's see what they do. Keep your fingers crossed. Keep prepares going and by all means. God bless stay safe and god bless united states of america. Everybody i man. Thank you gentlemen guys.

united states gordon forty percent biden federal government rick twenty six percent forty eight hours abe lincoln texas eddie hill gordon park james tubes gary bob james James james gonna alexander alexander hamilton federal national guard bundy ranch
Bundyville Revealed

Reveal

51:35 min | 1 year ago

Bundyville Revealed

"From the center for investigative reporting m._p._r. X. is real. I'm l. Let this month to to mass. Shootings happened within hours of each other over. Thirty people were killed. Afterwards people asked familiar question. How could this be happening reading today. We're going to be tackling that question by looking at how a group of people with extremist ideas embraced violence to get their way and how their beliefs leafs spread and in some ways become more dangerous. The story takes us back to january two thousand sixteen. The sun is shining in the sky but the air is frigid in a small oregon town man in a cowboy hat and a thick winter flannel climbs up a snow bank at the edge of a grocery store parking lot and calls out to a crowd of his supporters. I'm asking you to follow me and go to the merrier national wildlife refuge and we're gonna make a harsh stand. That's ammon bundy. He's short speech on that snow. Bank kicked off a six week armed standoff with the federal government in a remote bird sanctuary in the middle of winter. It's crucial social. They you understand what's going on here. What this issue is truly about. It's about our federal government taking over private property. This is bundy's second armed standoff. He and his supporters believed that the federal government has no right to public lands and should turn them over to the states amens father cliven cliven bundy had for decades us public land to graze his cattle but refused to pay the federal fees in twenty fourteen. The federal government came to collect elect and that ended in the first armed standoff with the bundys at their ranch in bunkerville nevada. We take you back to the standoffs because they lead directly to our story today. How anti-government groups and individuals surface to support the bundy's didn't go away when the bundy's did instead over over the past few years people within those groups have become more emboldened and willing to use violence to get what they want today. We're teaming up with the podcast has bundy ville produced by oregon public broadcasting and long rates to see how the violence that started with the bundys has spread bonnevilles hosts. Lisa tilly joins me now now. Elliot hey has gone so before we get to season to remind us what happened to the bundy's after those two standoffs came to an end both of those ended ended with these trials that a lot of critics would say the government botched so with the nevada case. They ended in a mistrial in oregon. They ended in acquittals for for the bundy brothers and their co-defendants so what's motivating the bundy's. How did they get to the point of the first standoff. I think to understand the bundy family family you kind of have to understand that where they come from. There's a real kind of anti-government sentiment that a lot of people share you can look to <hes> when the mormons came west in eighteen hundreds <hes> part of the reason they did that was to get away from the federal government but then the government came to them and sort of started this idea that a lot of mormons in that area feel that they were persecuted for their religion by the government so all of this kind of led to cliven and bundy's standing off with the government in two thousand fourteen saliha how those religious beliefs cut of drive this this confrontation with the federal government the bundy's hold a pretty specific set of fringe religious beliefs that a lot of mormons would not agree with and in fact the mainstream mormon church in salt lake city wouldn't agree with so so my reporting led me to this thing called the white horse prophecy which is basically this kind of urban legend among mormon communities that that that some people believe joseph smith the prophet of the church told <hes> early mormons that they would settle in the rocky mountains and that one day the u._s. Constitution solution would hang by a thread and it would be up to the mormon people to save that from ruin now. The church in salt lake doesn't think this is actually a real prophecy but the the bundy family does and a lot of other people in these kind of anti-government communities also believe that they believe that their fight against the government is them actually saving being the constitution from ruin so where do the bundy's motivations and beliefs overlap with other groups that you've been tracking sense. If you look at the the anti-government anti-government movement you might remember things like ruby ridge and the waco standoff with the branch davidians and both of those events ended and people dying hang at the hands of the government a lot of those were kids so the anti-government groups use those instances as recruitment tools times when they can say look look the federal government will come after people who live differently or do things their own way and they kind of turn a blind eye to the laws that were being broken and by those people involved in ridge in waco so those events really informed cliven bundy and his belief that the government was after people so then when they came him to collect his grazing fees he was seeing it as just the next chapter of ruby ridge and waco but more recent turning point happened at the second bundy standoff there was a shooting of one of the leaders of the occupation and that's going on to inspire people to this day yeah that man that was killed during the occupation was a guy named la voie finicky so during the occupation authorities had orchestrated a traffic stop in a rural area wi- with no cell reception where they could easily arrest the leaders of the occupation so he pulled over these two cars and they arrest ammon bundy arrest several other people but lavoix finicky <hes> decided to drive away from that traffic stop and actually tried to blow through a roadblock drive around it into the snow and then he he jumped out of the car all of that was caught on tape and you narrate for us in the first season of bundy ville the scene picks up right after the voi- finnick jumps out of his car and warning. This is tape of a police shooting. Someone fires two shots that hit the truck. He stumbles through knee-deep snow. It keeps shouting. His hands are up at first then he reaches for his jacket. Pocket inside is loaded handgun. He he puts his hands up again and he reaches hands up reach. Finally police do shoot him. He never managed to grab the gun. So investigators released this video and in two different vantage points one was aerial real footage from a law enforcement drawn. The other was taken by smartphone by people inside the cab of the truck so watching that video you see everything unfold. I'd like you there. How did this incident add more fuel to the fire for the anti-government movement well. The response was almost immediate. <hes> shortly after the shooting a memorial popped up at the snowbank where people who supported the bundy's in the anti-government movement talked about it like it was a murder or an assassination or kind this carefully orchestrated hit <hes> by the government on on a member of the patriot movement even though it was so clear from that footage that you saw these two angles and he saying you're going to have to shoot shoot me that that it was unjustified police shooting so in his death i really found in my months even years of investigation that it it becomes really intertwined in with the militia groups in these anti-government groups that showed up at the bundy's standoffs and it became this target for their anger and that's where you pick up with season two tracking those other groups tells a little about them like who they are and what are they doing sure at both of the bundy's high profile standoffs you saw groups like the oath keepers which is one of the largest most well-known militias across the country came to their side. You saw another militia group called the three percenters chapters chapters from nearby states coming to their side on my reporting. I started to see these other threats picking up of white supremacy and violence in these ideologies that had been there long before these two standoffs. I think it's important to note that groups like the oath keepers were actually in charlottesville taking and the side of the old rate during the protests that happen there yeah and i think if it these are groups that generally wouldn't be very fired up about ranching rightly the bundy's sort of provided a great platform to fight the government and that's often. I think what the takeaway that my reporting has found is that it's it has very little to do with the the constitution has very little to do with ranching oftentimes is just looking for new ways to fight off the government and to kind of force <hes> a a belief system like what we saw it at charlottesville on display that's lee host of the podcast series bundy ville so how does that belief system mm-hmm inspire violence when we come back lee investigates that by heading to the scene of a bombing in the fateh mcconnell explosive. That's coming up on reveal from the center for investigative. Reporting impe are ex <music> you from the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. viz is reveal ville. I'm outlet today. Were teaming up with the creators of the podcast bundy ville from oregon public broadcasting and long rates their second season dropped a couple of weeks ago and they're investigating some acts of domestic terror that connected to the bundy's supporters season two begins with a bombing in the summer of twenty sixteen that i bet you never heard of a warning before we get started. This story contains some violent scenes his money ville host lisa tilly panetta is this gravelly town on the nevada side of the border with utah about three hours north of las vegas a desert outpost that was founded in the eighteen sixty s by mormon pioneers panetta is god country and such a western cliche that i literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle tolls street not much happens here but that wasn't the case on july thirteenth two thousand sixteen nine one one. What is your emergency. Hello ma'am ma'am cake for me. Okay and i i can barely hear. You said he was gonna kill you. He said he's calling explosives. You can't are you away from the home. Mm-hmm tiffany cluff was inside her house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was going to blow her house up she should get the kids and leave and demand then lit the fuse on the bomb he'd put inside. The house walked to his car. Got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head and then everything blew up <music> shrapnel went everywhere curving in long arcs over the town just down the street. The county sheriff's black black smoke and a mushroom cloud billowing into the sky just a moment but i do need conditional information from the okay here. Also she cooks. We have one dispatcher time. She calls back in jail any book it right now. In your nine hundred starts going crazy. All all all nine lines all administrative. I just couldn't y'all that's lincoln county sheriff jerry lee. He lives down the street. He had no idea what was going on a who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bomber guy who came with glenn jones came into your your house up our house cheerfully was standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grab the keys to who is patrol rig and drove toward the chaos and i literally felt that in my chest i felt the concussion in my chest then i could see the russian cloud coming up over the earth in the world. I could hear the power <music>. This was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany kalev recognize the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so i grabbed the troll rig and by the time i got to my patrol car. The second explosion happened in the more he told us about it. The crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling vehicles in. We actually had to weave through cars that get into the to where the houses and we waved as stop. Stop stop. You're over body parts. I said what you run around with body parts and that's what they said look over there. Look over there settle eggs from the belt down lanes the road the first bomb blew up the house of tiffany and her husband josh cluff. They were nurses in town and lived there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened in the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car park next to the house and the man inside the bomber was glenn jones. A former nurse who used to work with josh jones was the only person hurt in the bombing but when sheriff lee pulled up to the scene he had no way of knowing that it was absolute mayhem like so there's body parts everywhere lee is also the town's coroner and when he pulled up to the scene of the bombing he thought his top priority was identifying. Whoever got hurt you can't really identify someone by just their legs so he started looking for the rest of the body eighty and we did not actually find the over torso which is what we needed for identification. I don't care about the. I mean do care but that's not why i need i need. I need legs. I mean i need fingerprints. I need dental records any that type of stuff to be able to identify somebody. It took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of glenn jones when they did. He wasn't laid out on his back back and easy to identify. He was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Ours it is but even more bizarre is zet when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to get fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said d._n._r. Which do not resuscitate and the phone number for the victim of the house is phone number very bizarre stupid question. That's my producer. Ryan has when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system along with <hes> <music>. Ask about glenn jones and they'll say they knew him. Nice sky blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic and tells me they wouldn't want to speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town and then offer an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of workplace grievance between glenn jones and josh cluff josh at one time was glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends glenn even helped josh build his house in pennock but several months before the bombing glenn leftist job at the hospital around the same time he also lost his nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe glenn blamed. Josh share flea tells me within hours of the bombing. It became an f._b._i. Investigation we also had the bomb squad and everything from las vegas. They brought up cadaver sniffing dogs. I mean they brought auto the robot. That was the whole thing i mean. There's a big show the next day all the f._b._i. Told me when asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the f._b._i. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear nobody in town could really answer my questions and outside of panetta. Not many people people know about it. The national news didn't cover it. This was a bombing on american soil and sure no one was hurt except the bomber himself but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story. It's only after i left panetta that i found a possible answer answer that pointed to something beyond petty disagreement between coworkers so after visiting aca. I started calling around to try to get answers. I found out that glen jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army national guard hard but he never saw combat. I also learned that he had been living in kingman arizona in an r._v. Park right before the bombing happened after the bombing coming. The kingman police department rated glen jones's r._v. They found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals with jones's name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for bomb. One detective said quote the entries indicated that glenn jones had been approached by subject identified as josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device. The intended target that officer rhode was identified as fourth of july b._l._m. Mm field office. That's the bureau of land management the same federal government agency that got into the initial dispute with the bundys but here's where things get murky erkki because the fourth of july came in went that year nothing happened and by july thirteenth johnson decided instead to target josh cluff. Here's sheriff carefully. I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point and they were very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would have wanted to bomb a beal field office. It turned out there was it goes back to the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge oregon when one of the group's leaders lavoix finicky vinnicombe was shot and killed. We'll try to avoid that police barricade in two thousand sixteen when the bomb went off in nevada at the club home finicky was already dead ed and the patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering americans everywhere you look in the patriot movement. You'll see vinnicombe cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People write songs about him the about accountable own. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report in kingman. Police wrote that there is an entry in jones's notebook indicating that lavoix finn comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beale office and that quote josh is the cousin of lavoie vinnicombe. I was able to confirm the josh. Cliff is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved loved so i asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way before the the bombing but we did see an anti-government side to cluff. He didn't want to give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the gist was that at the hospital ospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for themselves and cleft wasn't having it yet really angry started yelling being a little bit of an eye opening about how josh felt about government overreach. It's unclear whether cluff and jones were working together to bomb the beal building at first and something went wrong or jones working alone and decided to bomb tom clubhouse for some other reason so what happened between the two of them. Cluff is never given any straight answers about jones or lavoix or bomb at office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up would few belongings. They could salvage the move to idaho again. Police have not said that the family family has done anything wrong only confirmed that they did in fact got in touch with us on facebook and ask for an interview finally after few messages ages. He wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past months later. I found an email forum when i reached out again and i tried one more time to get cleft to say something i send him the evidence i had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin voi- finnigan so he responded quote those were terrible times for my family which you're trying to move past at the i did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement. Men have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. Glenn jones was planning to bomb a beal building an appeared to have begun as a response to the death of lavoix finicky him joneses plot was a continuation of the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at bundy ranch but then for some reason jones baum clubs house instead of the beal building in the years since the bundy's high-profile standoffs more acts of of extremist violence have been popping up in the news they aren't necessarily inspired by the patriot movement but some of them share some of the scene anti-government white supremacist beliefs certainly the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight. A florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals just like barack obama hillary clinton and george soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cabal was accused of sending all those devices to critics of president. Donald trump or georgia man killed a cop killer. Tear guthrie claim to be considered himself sovereign citizen nation to himself. He didn't recognize police. It's already and considering consider and i wondered if the pinnacle bombing was perhaps an early sign of this increasingly radical violence a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless the less into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent. I couldn't ask jones why he blew up the clubhouse or if the the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at plenty ranch and who knew voi- finnigan who also tried to blow up a government building ending that same summer and when we come back leah tracks down that man who said what happened at the bundy ranch served as a rallying cry i to me it was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short boston. Tea party parent civil war like that but it was a wakeup call. This is revealed from the center for investigative reporting and p. R. x. <music> the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. This is reveal. I'm outlet it back. In february at a truck stop outside salt lake city utah lisa tilly and ryan has of the podcast bundy have come to guy in bill keyboard. Keebler blur has been involved with the patriot movement since the bundy's first standoff with the federal government in bunkerville nevada. He says he ran security there afterwards he he started his own militia fifty seven year old william keebler is known by the f._b._i. As a commander of a citizen militia group called the patriots defense force in june of two thousand sixteen that would he hit the button to designate what he thought was a bomb to destroy a building owned by the bureau of land management but it turns out the bomb was a fake komo undercover f._b._i. Agents had given him the device. He pled guilty to the attempted bombing and served time in jail. Now he's out on probation. Leeann ryan pick up the story at that restaurant and salt lake smokes and coffee real quick. They'll keep learn looks like a shriveling old ranch chand. He's got leathery skin. Smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen and i had a massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery. We're at a denny's tucked into the corner of the truckstop for most most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company. We ease into the conversation. Ryan and i are just trying to get a feel for who we're talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. I'm in the army bravo. Infantry went to a lotta specialized training fort bend when germany i'll l. ended there and i think one of the friday saturday morning i woke up on russian communist. Russian border says he also knows his way around computers. Do i used to do costa taster trish. They can't break and they still have nothing. I mean good anyway even says he has a black belt in kung fu fhu studied numerous black belt in four different styles. He says he created his own system of kung fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly rambo your own and i should be clear. I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but i also wasn't in utah taught to figure out whether he got third place in the kung fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the f._b._i. But i that meant convincing him that we weren't f._b._i. Agents raid to talk to people like you. I'm gonna be honestly it would surprise me. Both david pulled out. I just went shot in what i've seen because in keebler world everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me his story yeah. I've been on borrowed time for years. I came here because they wanted to hear keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent but just a few minutes into the interview. What i'm really wondering is how did the f._b._i. Decide to focus on this guy. Is this old. The man in poor health really the most dangerous person in the patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces his training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part bill keebler story starts in twenty fourteen when he spent about two weeks and bunkerville ville nevada cliven bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the bundy's hadn't paid their grazing being fees and the b. M. had come to collect their cattle. The fact that keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back. Then keebler says he was a member of the oath keepers a militia associated with the patriot movement and by his account at bunny ranch he he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. Leave north actually stop. A lot of people like them play out their stop. People wanna shoot people. I don't want to rehash bundy ranch but the long short of it is no one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the bundy's cows were released in the agents laughed. Keebler was pumped up on the patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events events in this country. This has his history short at boston tea party to several. We're not like that but it was a wakeup. Geico call so in the following months back at home in utah. Keebler started his own militia. He called it patriots defense force or p._d._f. F was a half dozen or so guys got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. He government peppers. We've talked a lot about going off grid about what to do. When things went sideways keebler even showed people how to raise chickens and rabbits for meat meet then a few months later keebler got a phone call from someone he'd met at bunkerville lavar finicky. He wanted me to basically in his place and give him the support that we gave the bundy's back. Then lavoix finicky was just rancher in arizona and keeler said he was building up to his own bunkerville styles standoff with the m. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but i do know that around this time in the late summer of two thousand fifteen finnigan was becoming agitated with the bureau of land management veal a._m. Sarah zero government has said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. He was making that pretty obvious on his youtube page. No none of these bureaucrats crafts do we allow here county none of ever accountable to us emma harvey county. This is the definition of tearing from the way keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and keebler advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics addicts to anyone who'll listen was happy to bring his militia to come help him prepare for the confrontation that the bundy's we got there after the fact if we knew it was coming. We could be prepared because they were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come. Just take all his cal but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for finnish uh-huh cattle records from the beal showed fit income only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven bundy owed more than a million in dollars accrued over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop finicky him from preparing for the worst or keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the bundy's had done at finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto. The landry grazed his cattle and then spring a trap. I don't mean ambush salt and killed and shoot none of that cracks. That's worth thank everybody tresor preser- ad-lib ship the plan was to let the be on the property and then use an excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out at certain place so when they come up and he'll them cattle that can't get up here we keep alert saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what i saw the bundy ranch or an oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and i had to wonder then what are they gonna. Keep them hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before i could get an answer key told me that another member of his militia wanted to blow them all up brad miller's idea. Oh wait till you get right to your brother. It was just up. Keebler says brad miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that. I killing mask to you're killing whoever's truck but brad miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass. He was actually an undercover f._b._i. V. i. agent in fact at varying times. There were three confidential informants and three undercover f._b._i. Agents in keillor's militia and so if you take away keebler the f._b._i. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of p._d._f. Militia all this time finn keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents in court documents their records of text messages one of the other other undercover f._b._i. Agents who went by the name jake davis sent to his handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open pandora's whereas box. I'm worried about our liability in another text. Davis worried about miller's continued taunting keebler quote. I'm all pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas it's like when miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in his head over the course of their investigation the f._b._i. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the west. I patriot movement gatherings. They paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal facilities way out in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal and building that he had scouted in your finnigan's ranch finchem by then had been killed by police after trying to drive around that police blockade oregon over the next couple of months and the f._b._i. Made keebler fake pipe bomb and then on june twenty first twenty sixteen keebler in the rest of his militia traveled to arizona and set the bomb. I'm outside. The building. Keyword pushed the button on a fake detonator the f._b._i. Gave him and then the next morning they arrested him. Topsy picnic brought me a handcuff. This guy comes in dressed bigger shitting grin on his face or allowed to see mr taber trying to brush your sorry ass for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants armaments and two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert and it's not every day you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and i have to say for a while talking to keebler i. I felt like maybe the f._b._i. Missed the mark and manipulated and otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation. Things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when i asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government the stink government. What would that look like like what would that what would that world learn their own themselves themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be. The government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs affairs. He says that the government can do its thing trading with china and korea but is no damn business running utah georgia or texas then he starts talking about how muslims are taking over schools. You can't do the pledge of allegiance in school. Were now we got muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like muslims i._s. Keebler you give me an example where this was. It's happening but he just said number places yeah. They have taken over host cities. They want to start prayer. They won't stop all the american stuff. The boy scouts and everything make an islam. They're out in the streets. Writing with hundreds of imbalance shutdown rose copter standing over mix. Nobody are you serious badly. Thanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup trucks will in their pro. Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best an attacking muslims in the street at worst and it's all informed his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this. This is the kind of talk that brought the f. b. i. to him. I don't know tops now dressed up. They got what looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god. It was preaching christianity to up there. He's been arrested on the internet right now need to homework homework. You think the federal the federal government is in volved in that or you just think it should be no shock at this point to tell you that keebler is also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him. He hates barack. Obama thinks he's part of what conspiracy theorists call the deep deep state shadowy government cabal agreement today put him in the present is that he would make way for more muslims to be of the united states. That's actually come out recently won the news reporters. He was made president so more muslims the u._s. He arranged to be able to like soros his financing a lot of <hes> a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia. You're going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born to keep it alive long enough the organs to develop didn't kilkare okay and harsh it for parts at this point in our interview. Keebler is looking at ryan. Emmy like we're crazy. Like how do we not know any of this this. I can't believe i don't know none of this. We're looking at keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe stuff talking talking to keebler. I feel like i understand how far down conspiratorial rabbit hole you have to be in order to detonate a bomb that helps me understand glenn jones to oh but at the same time keillor's bigotry as clouded his entire perspective on the world keillor's whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups. This is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author jesse walker. Tell put a guy like keebler and context walker wrote. A book called the united states of paranoia. I wanted to understand the role. The conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in a cold war era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the john birch society <hes> sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties from you know fears where off the <hes> the enemy is based in moscow fears where the enemy is based in new york and <hes> manipulating moscow nineties after the cold war ended ended events like ruby ridge waco happened conspiracy shifted again and so it's much easier just sorta see washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the internet and while i'm not someone who argues that the internet made people more paranoid made people boomer conspiracy theorists i do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who it previously been much more <hes> separate from one another bill keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for a target for their anger. He was in the army fighting communism. When the cold cold war ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and muslims and women and abortion doctors bill clinton and george soros hillary clinton and brock obama the deep state. He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask keebler. Where's this going in his mind. The shit hits the fan incident incident during the obama administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely around me to central command post and we'll go from there we operations at that point. That would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's i think if trump declares martial law would be more controlled manner <hes> he's not come after patriots demolition. Do not white people know there. You go pushing the racist bullshit. The people got angry when i asked him. If this entire world she'd conspiracies government balls is really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about sharia law evasions at the border how muslims are a plague in a christian nation like america. He tells me i'm off base to ask at this. All really comes down to bigotry. Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas and he's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when ryan awesome different question happens if the democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges the bra. What do you think happens with the patriots over. I'll bet off just from what i'm hearing seeing on the internet. All bets are off with you. Bet your off take their word keebler guy who tried to blow up a government building in who lives is on a steady stream of hate from the internet says he's had enough if anything were to ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are wanting retaliation revenge. They won't pay back for a lot of things this abortion crap what what is happening to our children what has happened to our streets whereas happened in our schools. People want retribution rich bution listening to that story. You might think the government spending a lot of resources versus to stop people like bill keebler but in reality. He's the exception not the rule. Don't get me wrong the f._b._i. Carries out plenty of sting operations nations. They're just usually focus on terrorist acting in the name of islam. Even though there's way more acts of right wing terrorism we looked at this with type investigations sagacious a few years back and found that half of the incidents carried out in the name of islam are stopped with stinks half. Meanwhile stings were used to stop just twelve percent of white supremacists anti-government and other right wing terrorism in other words law enforcement. Usually only folks is on right wing violence after the bombs explode leah. I want to get back to the last thing that we heard from bill keebler that people want retribution. What does he mean by that. There's really been a transition. I think in the year since the bundy's standoffs <hes> a lot of the anti-government movement suddenly loves loves the government under trump which kind of is is counterintuitive right like the anti-government movement is suddenly pro government because trump is talking about things that they care about deeply things like anti immigration issues anti-muslim issues and trump is this kind of anti-government president so retribution for guys like bill keebler is seeing the extremes of those things coming true finally coming to fruition so a country with no immigrants no more islam no more tolerance of anyone wight christian people. I mean the two things the idea that these these groups are anti-government and the fact that suddenly they are pro government under trump is not surprising to me at all because i think the underpinning of both of these things <unk> are white supremacy. How does that play out in anti-government movements. There's this kind of coded language of of racism and bigotry that that drives the groups and in that that you can hear under a lot of what they say so yeah it's not it's not really surprising that after years of being mostly dormant a lot of these anti-government groups had a big resurgence under the first black president under president obama so you can see evidence of the way white supremacy rides along with all of these anti-government anti-government flash points in the last thirty years so like randy weaver the guy who is at the center of the ruby ridge standoff. He was known to hang out at the area nations compound compound in north idaho. <hes> the oklahoma city bomber timothy mcveigh was inspired by a novel called the turner diaries which sort of envisions this <hes> <hes> future dominated by a race war. So what does he have a what people like bill keebler will be doing between now and the presidential election next year i i think bill keebler specifically focused on getting off probation kind of disappearing into the woods. I guess if he could <hes> said he wanted to move out of utah where he feels like the federal government is watching him. He's left social media and not kind of thing but he's still occasionally talks about conspiracies pro-trump messages ages. He's very excited about some of the racist comments that that president trump has been saying as of late so you kind of see a an individual like him him as really an getting excited about trumpet also getting excited about these anti democrat anti liberal conspiracies that that spread like wildfire on on the internet. Why does the government have such a hard time. Stopping these kind of domestic groups and i'm thinking that you know when we look at this. We're primarily talking about white. Supremacists premesis and the government doesn't seem to have a problem tackling other types of terrorism. Why does the government seemed to have such a hard time stopping shopping these groups with violent tendencies. I think it's about priorities. After nine eleven there is a major shift towards focusing on cracking down on international terrorism awesome and it took the focus off of domestic anti-government groups that saw such a resurgence during the nineteen nineties so. I think that your question is right on and what's changed now to stop them. So what else do you uncover in the rest of the season of bundy ville. I answered all kinds of questions. One of those is that i looked at how the anti-government movement recruits other people to do violence and who stands to benefit from that violence so those questions took me all around the american west a- actually led me to a really secretive religious community that i long heard about up in eastern washington that is thought of as this real patriot friendly place yes and i think could be thought of as something of an origin point for a lot of the ideas that the western anti-government movement is excited about liza tilly. Thank you so much coach thank you. We want to thank the whole team of bundy ville for their help. As we said the full run of season two is just out with more twists and turns highly recommend you check it out. You can also read the series on long reach dot com slash bundy ville bundy villes produced by long reads in oregon public broadcasting our partners and bring you this week. Show many thanks to the o._p._b. Editors ryan has anna griffin and long read editors mike dang and kelly stout in fact checker matt giles our executive producer. Kevin sullivan edited today show with help from reveals. Emily harris and g amini are reduction managers news. One day in the hosa are sound design. Team is the dynamic duo j. breezy. Mr jim briggs and fernando-mania room are c._e._o.'s krista schaumburg mad thompson. Thompson is our editor in chief our theme music is by colorado might support for bills provided by the raven david logan foundation the john d and catherine t. macarthur foundation the jonathan logan family foundation the ford foundation the hazing simon's foundation the democracy fund and the ethics excellence in journalism foundation reveal is a co-production at the center for investigative reporting p._r. Ex i'm outlets and remember there is always more to the story yeah <music>.

cliven bundy william keebler federal government oregon glenn jones keebler utah Donald trump bundy ville Leeann ryan bundy bundy ranch cliven cliven bundy sheriff lee bill keebler nevada arizona barack obama beal building president
Episode 5: The Politician

Bundyville: The Remnant

23:46 min | 1 year ago

Episode 5: The Politician

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of his journalism including Bonneville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off any new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates before we get started a warning. This episode contains smiled swearing descriptions violence and discussions about racist ideologies. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen how's everybody speak from Park today all right I it's a hot August Day summer of twenty teen and I'm standing in a public park in the north side of spokane Washington. It's a place where people play softball only out picnics but today there's a bunch of militia guys holding A._R.. Fifteen don't tread on me flags. They're calling this the liberty or death rally and I realized a long time ago as a student of history. There is a common theme Steve Marxism and tyranny. I'm here to talk to the guy on stage representative match Shea. He's a Washington State House lawmaker and is virtually impossible to interview no joke. I know more journalists who talked talk to president trump in person representative Shea you talked to a lot of other people from around the world and the common theme is they took our rights to bear ours. She has long traffic conspiracies. He hosts a weekly podcast. It makes no secret of what he believes and I'll tell you right now but I believe the constitution means what it says that all right to bear arms Shama be infringed. He says people should stop having abortions and same sex marriages they should also be prepared for the end of society in the United States is a Christian nation. The Matt shares a lot of ideas with bill keebler deep state conspiracies communists are infiltrating the Democratic Party Muslims taking over America. It's just that he wears a suit and the public paces salary. You're just one of several politicians nationwide who've adopted extremist ideas and continue to stay in office don't care if they ban us from twitter. I don't care if they banishment facebook Tumbler Youtube and whatever else as long as we have each other and as long as we have good Patriot places on the Internet go they will never silence us over the course of six terms shays always been an outlier the Washington state Republican Party more of a symbolic figure than actual get stuff done politician but since two thousand sixteen he and President Donald Trump has started hitting on a lot of the same talking points which is made him sound less and less fringe range all right. I'M GONNA get a little fiery document. Unalienable rights don't seem to let's hold them accountable audible. Let's call it a publicly their whole ones better defending tyranny. She does everything he can to avoid talking directly to reporters so I went to this gun rally re pretty much talk directly to me and the other reporters just did it from the stage where we couldn't ask questions now. I want to end with this off people the media some people even here today have come out publicly trying to smear other. I WanNa tell you something about that. We can't become of thirty got US hateful people. She says he wants the media to report the truth about him the N._F._l.. Tha that slander and defamation has always waste but if Shays so committed to the truth. I had some questions for him. Like why does he spend so much time cultivating following among fringe groups outside its district. Why did he go to both Bundy ranch and now you're standoff in Oregon and why does he give a fiery speech like this one almost every summer to religious community called marble community fellowship and Stevens County Washington hours away from anyone who can vote for him? We're GONNA continue to win because his on our side a few weeks after this rally I'd suddenly find myself with even more questions for Shea after someone to document than media called the biblical basis for war they said shade aid written a religiously motivated battle plan a manifesto calling on Christians to kill supporters of gay marriage and abortion and all we have to do stand up for no matter who is slandering us no matter who is so. Is it possible symbol Matt. She wrote that he says basically yes he did. That's the truth we just need to stand without wavering on the truth. Step back on. In the long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting this is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Utility Neighbors Nablus. y'All thank you for a guy who never talks to the media. Matt share makes a lot of headlines often for saying and doing things that might ruin other politicians like back in two thousand nine. He talked with conspiracy King Alex Jones on Info wars about how they both believe the feds are setting up concentration camps to imprison Americans representative good to have you on weather's. Thank you for having me conspiracy. Theories have always been part of Shays Public Persona when Alex Jones teed up the Fema camp story match took a swing well. I I am aware of what you're talking about. What the FEMA camps was very in most most particularly disturbing about that is that they're going to be on former military bases? <hes> a ton of people express concerns that what they're really building prison camps. I think you're on stage at a militia rally. 2013 do not have five thousand two to three five five thousand rounds of twenty two and a handgun mammal as a minimum. They're all at the same rally. He talked about the government collapsing like it was an opportunity chance to get stuff done. We ought to prepare for the inevitable collapse laps. It's going to happen and yes. I said that is a politician here on stage. It's GonNa Happen. We all know that the question is and I think the question should be for all of us. What are we GONNA do afterwards? What are we going to do with that opportunity honey? What are we going to do to prepare ourselves that time but she's aggression isn't all abstract in the future? He's got a history of violence to like in twenty eleven when he pulled out a gun during a road rage incident that case was has dropped as part of his deal with prosecutors but when his wife filed for divorce in two thousand seven she said in their divorce paperwork that shade grabbed her so hard during two arguments he left bruises on her arms he also told her she can never forget out of bed before him and instructed her to always walk on his left side because a soldier needs to be able to draw his sword from the right though we should be clear that shaded not physically carry a sword. That's all pretty standard. Shea stuff and none of these scandals did real damage to a standing with voters even when they happened in the middle of an election according to a police report the diner who snapped these cell phone photos thought she was listening to a table full of terrorists and then called police in two thousand fourteen when she was running for his fourth term lady over her to conversation he was having a spokane restaurant and it freaked out so much she called the cops Shay in the founder of a constitutionalist a toothless group called the oath keepers or discussing things like churches and snipers and night vision goggles shea won that election by more than sixty seven hundred votes. If News could get out that he sat in a diner with one of the biggest militia you leaders in this country and openly talked about military tactics it seemed like shake could be as extreme as he wanted and it wouldn't cost him any support or at least that's what I thought until I met this guy okay so my name is a tanner ro. <hes> who I am I am the guy who released the biblical basis of war document. Tanna rose a big man roughneck who lives in eastern Washington and works in the North Dakota oilfields. He got involved with shade by working security for him on election night in two thousand sixteen. She's a little bit paranoid regularly travels with at least one burly guy around him which is strange for low level state. Lawmaker is looking for guys you title Hindi with a gun and stuff like that Roe says he went back to the oilfields after his one night. Security Gig didn't really give Matt Shea much thought for the next few years but he did hear this plan. Shay was talking about to split eastern Washington off into a fifty first state called liberty row kind of like the idea of new state thought it would be a great way to embrace the rugged culture the place away for rural people to finally get a voice that wasn't drowned out by Seattle's liberal politics six but when someone shays inner circle showed him this document called the biblical basis for war Roe says he started to see Shays idea is more of a religious takeover than a balancing of the scales. I asked him wall so you only because it's going to be like a theocracy because he say that is GonNa be Christian state and I listen to a lot of what you say the only if you're gonNA have a rule by God rather than by laws that is technically theocracy and if you're GonNa sit here and tell me that it's for liberty but it's only gonna be delivered the Liberty of people did you agree with an lifestyles at you agree with that isn't liberty right. I mean that's essentially wonky won't he. Tyranny rate them even system messed up set values dress within bullshit. The biblical basis for war is basically weekly an outline for how to rebuild society when the government collapses and like I said that's something shays been talking about for years and basically lays out a series of ultimatums that the rest of us would have to comply with stop abortions and and same sex marriage and obey biblical law if that doesn't happen quote kill all males what that is as a battle doctrine for what they will do to gain power over the region of influence mm so they want more specifically kind of pertains to North Idaho eastern Washington Salon so fourth row says he shared the document because it showed that Shea really was planning a takeover of the region that he was maybe picking up where Aryan nations founder. Richard Butler had left off but shea scoffed at the leak he made a facebook live video shortly after it was released now. Let's get to the document. These guys posted online first of all it was a summary A series of servants on Biblical War in the Old Testament as part of a larger discussion on the history of warfare this document in and of itself was not a secret he goes on to you say it was notes on an idea called just war theory but I talked to a few theologians about that and they said this doesn't even resemble just wore theory. It looks more like a scorched earth war screed ultimately the document didn't in have the effect that row wanted shave lost a few donors but even after having distributed a document advocating for mass murderer he still won the two thousand eighteen election by ten thousand votes so the voters of Spokane Valley have elected elected him in six times. That's more than ten years in office because they either don't care aren't paying attention or they agree with him and it's hard to say which one is more disturbing still since the biblical basis for working out a major eastern Washington Republican step to the Mike to say he didn't agree with Shay about likes to be a center retention okay and those people loving that's Sheriff Ozzy Can Knezevic. He's the longtime Republican Sheriff Spokane County. The kind of guy not shake can't just discredit by calling a communist his conservative record runs too deep like last year in two thousand eighteen when Washington state pass new <music> age restrictions on gun sales he was one of the sheriffs who said he wouldn't enforce the law but Knesset which is one of Shays harshest critics. He told me he's received multiple death threats from people in Shays camp. They seem to be happening. More are in more. How do you deal with this like you just well? I've got my state in order. I've thought my will done. The kids have all been briefed. Don't take this is me being flippant. Nobody wants to die yeah. I came to grips with death long long time ago and there's been more people than I have died for this country and if that's what it takes for two maybe get with people wake up about camping around him all right but I am not going to be forced out of this county. I love my nation and if it takes fighting these people all these terms on what can knezevic is saying here floors me. He's saying that the state representative for part of his county is such a radical that he believes he might be killed by Shays people one day. Could that really happen someone who knew Matt Shea really well someone who worked for him for years said yes that could definitely happen. I've had death threats and Tanner said death threats so Jay Pounder worked for Matt Shea on a GIG GIG basis. Yes he recruited tanner row for security at the two thousand Sixteen Election Night Party and he's the one who gave road the biblical basis for war documentary we're sitting in downtown Spokane Hotel and he's explaining how Shays started out as more of a tea party guy pushing back against nationalized healthcare carbon legislation in over the years. He's moved to the right from their pounder says he's turned into an outright extremist did he come to you and like portray himself as like I can. She kinda polarizing guy like is it a character or is it what he really believes. I WanNa answer this on very carefully because they feel that Matt has slowly progressed over time. It's almost seems like his belief system has changed and has become more radical <hes> so the more he is kind of regressed into this dominion EST position that he's taking the more radical he's become that word. He is Dominion Est Dominion. ISM is an evangelical of Anjelica idea. It asserts that Christians have god-given right to govern and a lot of religious conservatives are on board with version of that but when take into the extremes dominion ism sort of looks like the Christian Taliban calls for the death penalty to be used against homosexuals and apostates of any kind kind of like what was spelled out in Shays Biblical basis for war pounder says Shea give him a copy since he was on the security team McCain with a warning you know Matt was very specific that you know this because this could be things you could be arrested for this seditious material and you know to some extent yeah he's right when you advocate for you know genocide of any type of group whether gay streets black white Muslim I mean that's that's you know it's your planning mass murderer and it's a game plan. It's not sermon knows as he's claimed as video for months after he leak that document pounder hit his identity speaking to reporters orders anonymously because he was scared and he knew that he would lose shays friendship. It was hard for me to walk away from those guys <hes> because yeah I mean I consider them brother I really did I need to stop here for a second emphasize. Why Pounder decided to turn on Shea? It wasn't just because of these radical calls for violence. This spring pounder released a bunch of text messages in a second effort to discredit shea. It was a texter. He'd been part of the Shea. And some other Patriot types in those texts shea offered to survey liberal protesters and Shays Buddies talked in great detail about committing serious violence against them slamming their faces into concrete barriers and quote hoisting communists up flagpoles especially the ones with nipple rings but at the Time Pounder didn't flinch at the stuff. These guys were talking about in fact he joined in in another discussion where they were talking about Mailing Wolf testicles testicles tune environmentalist pounder provided the guys address so he was kind of into it but he's also a devout Christian and he says when he saw the biblical basis for war and that this violence would be in the name of Christianity. That's when he decided to speak up it was this twisting of religion that finally made pounder turn on Shea more. I got to know what was going on at marble and understand the theology and everything going on it really unnerved me because as I news as practicing Christian and I can't go along with some of these ideas that they wanna represent and and back it's it's scary at remember marble. That's the religious community that Shea goes to for for the God and country celebration every summer. It's an old ghost town of an Stevens County back in the early nineteen ninety s a group of hyper conservative Christians moved in the hopes of establishing what they called a Christian Covenant Community Nitty they built a church their families moved into homes on the property. They home-schooled and raise their kids there. I I heard about marble doc in twenty sixteen summer after the Malheur standoff lots of the people who'd been part of the occupation be patient headed north to marble like it was some kind of Patriot Woodstock politicians from Washington Oregon Nevada an Idaho who'd been up Bundy ranch malheur came up gave speeches. Did it kind of victory lap. The Matt Shea of course was there too and he continues to go every year. I've with team rugged here Washington. During the gun country celebration she was interviewing a group of kids in their twenties. They were standing in a field with shooting targets setup giant white cross loomed on the hill behind them. Tell everybody out there in Patriot land. What is team rugged? What are you guys doing so team? Rugged is basically a school of learning for young men to to give them all the foundational learning and skills that they need to be effective in Christian warfare when the biblical basis for war came out. She said the document was no secret said it was notes notes on a sermon he'd heard and now here's some kids who sound like they've heard the same sermons which made my ears perk up and got me wondering what kind of preacher was giving sermons advocating for war and death killing all males ooh mouthpiece helping push these radical ideas mainstream almost an acrobatic special forces team out there today how long practice on this while we got the idea off of a special forces when I looked into WHO's teaching teaching these kids about Christian warfare I found that the pastor marble was the head instructor so of eastern Washington was going to become a fifty first State Christian homeland populated by members of the Patriot movement. Maybe marble country would be it's command center marbles not a safe environment and I personally if I was going back up I would not go at arms and I would not go with my body by body armor on Jay Pounder and tanner rope were scared of the place said they'd take guns runs if they went there. If I can ask us on records you know the the rationing. She's in Oregon it just like I thought this today sounds a lot like what the Russian issues did. We're talking about. The cult took over a small town in Oregon in one thousand nine hundred eighty S. If you watch the documentary wild wild country you'll know it. Have you watched the what is it the handmaidens too yeah. That's what China's of this reminds wait so you're saying marble. It's more like the handmaid's tale wild country he not. I know you said you wanted to go to Stevens. Do some working around so that isn't a bad idea you just I need to be careful. Grow told us that if we went up by marble we shouldn't turn down side roads and we shouldn't ask too many questions. Don't assume anyone is your friend. He said you I mean there's there's weird stuff. That happens smells. I mean you know there's nothing up there so aid to happen what you guys trying to do right people but we didn't arm up. We didn't wear body armor in the next day. Eh We went to see marble for ourselves. That's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Leah's utility Peter Frick right and Ryan has sound design and music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research Help from I'm Kim Freda special thanks to David Study and remember ladies. If your man carries a sword always stay to the left Bundy Ville is a co-production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible. I hope so please consider a small donation or even becoming a member. You can do that by visiting long reads DOT COM or O._P._B.. Dot Org you can also support Bonneville by leaving us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

Matt Shea Shay Washington Oregon Jay Pounder Bonneville representative Shays facebook spokane Washington Washington State House United States Steve Marxism Bundy Ville twitter Spokane County Matt share Bundy Ville Bundy ranch
Episode 1: The Explosion

Bundyville: The Remnant

26:47 min | 1 year ago

Episode 1: The Explosion

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reasons wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plan start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates before we get started a warning. This episode contains mild wild swearing and scenes of violence that may be upsetting to some listeners. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen so what if I told you that in the summer of twenty sixteen eighteen in a rural western town there was a bombing. You never heard about nine one one. What is Your Majesty short? Ma'am Ma'am take abreast from me okay and I I can barely stand you happened in Perak Nevada a town about three hours north of Las Vegas read on the border with Utah Ah. He said he was going to kill you. He said he's calling for explosives and are you away from the home. It was July Thirteenth Twenty sixteen around eight o'clock in the evening one of those warm summer nights but still feels like the middle of the day Tiffany cluff was insider house with her three daughters when a man came to the door said he was GonNa Blow Oh her house up she should get the kids and leave demand then lit diffuse on the bomb he'd put inside the house walk to his car got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head then and everything blew up shrapnel went everywhere <music> curving and long arc's over the town just down the street the county sheriff's a black smoke a mushroom cloud billing into the sky but I do need additional information from the okay so she cooks. We have one dispatcher to time. She calls back in jail any help appeal right now in nine crazy all the lines title all all allies all administrative also just couldn't y'all physics to try to that's Panetta's Sheriff Sheriff Jerry Lee he lives down the street and he had no idea what was going on who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bombers. Is there anyone injured or do you see anyone injured. Glenn Jones came into your house per house from long reads and Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy fill the remnant. I'm necessarily it was about eight o'clock in the evening. Just normal summer evening people out walking. You know kids riding riding bikes people mowing their lawns and just normal nothing out of the ordinary share flea was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grabbed the keys to his patrol rig and drove toward the chaos. You know my mind is like try going hundred mile an hour tr- trying to figure out what in the world and with you know at that time twenty eight years old I I mean I seen a lot of been experience a lot. I'm still trying to copy on what in the world is going on here. You know cars blow up like that in a movie okay when you see a movie that's how they don't blow up like that. Panetta gets chair of loud noises from a nearby air force base but cheerfully said he knew right away. This was something different and I literally felt in my chest. I felt a concussion in my chest that I could see the mushroom cloud coming up over the air though in the world and here the I could hear the power here that I thought this was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off Tiffany cluff recognize the bomber bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so I grabbed the patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car. The second explosion happens in the more he told us about about it the crazier the story got an we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling their vehicles in we actually had to leave through cars. Get into the to where the houses and we were wave does as stop stop. Stop your body parts. I said what body parts and that's what they said. Look over there. Look over there and there's a subtle leagues from the belt down laying on the road. The first bomb blew up the house of Tiffany and her husband Josh cluff. They were nurses in town on live there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened and the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car parked next to the House and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones a former nurse. We used to work under Josh at the hospital sheriff. Lee pulled up to a scene that was absolute mayhem. I mean like body parts everywhere. Share Flea is a guy with many jobs in Panetta and when he arrived he wasn't sure which job he was supposed to he doing okay so this is a small small town small community small county and we all wear different hats okay and you're gonNA probably get a chuckle out of this but I am also the fire chief here in Pinnock Okay right volunteer all-volunteer see you are also as sheriff. You're also the coroner of the county coroner also correct. I'm on the Emergency Planning Commission for the county. I try to somewhat hold of family. Relate on my father run the ranch so so between all that time a little bit between midnight and four A._M.. Okay so he's at the scene and he's got body parts. That means of coroner hat cheerfully told me and my producer Ryan has that it's his job to identify who's limbs were scattered everywhere but he can't really I._D.. Anyone with just some legs and we did not actually find the upper torso. which is we needed for vacation? I don't care about the late do care but that's not I need torso ended legs any I mean I need fingerprints dental records ending that type of stuff to be able to identify someone took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of Glen Jones when they did he wasn't laid out out on his back and easy to identify he was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Yeah bazaars it is but even more bizarre when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to give fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said D._N._R.. which do not resuscitate my that's my medical? Training is the army's do not resuscitate and phone number for the victims house or the victim. The victim victim of the house is former ribs are there you know I don't even know how to venture. Guess on that. I just that's ask one of the most bizarre things that I've encountered on a death to have somebody tattoo something like that on them. I don't know I don't know he had he had a lot of medical training so I know I know that's why I think d._N._R.. Was He knows what he what does it in the medical d._N._R.. Is Do not resuscitate can ask a stupid question when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. Will I think we looked it up our systems to John. Why did this guy? You're minding my point after the first season of Bundy villa last year I had no intention of making anymore. I wanted to find out why the Bundy family would take on the government twice in why all these really different militia groups flocked to their side for the most part I got answers the Bundy's tapped into an anti-government worldview that exists just under the surface out west in created an image of the true American cowboy for people to rally rally around but after they won their court cases the Bundy's started to disappear they'd gotten what they wanted and they're still running cows on public land without paying their grazing fees and of story right but the anti-government groups who come to their side. They didn't go away the Bundy's brought together the oath keepers sovereign citizens three percenters in the right wing media. All the people who think the government government is out to get them basically the catchall term for these groups is the Patriot movement and that movement didn't go away just because cliven Bundy went back to ranching so before you go any further if you haven't listened to that season go do that now. Season Two is going to build off a lot of the things we talked about last time and actually the first question I had when I came across the story of the bombing in Panetta was whether or not it was connected to the Bundy's the Patriot movement and everything from season one was this extremist violence some form of domestic terrorism or just a dispute between co workers. There wasn't any obvious connection. It was just this weird thing but it's not like bombs Blah everyday in this country and I wanted to know more so producer Ryan has an I flew out there Panetta's this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border with Utah a desert outpost host that was founded in the eighteen sixties by Mormon pioneers see only town in Nevada. That's dry meaning. You can't buy alcohol there and one of just two in the state. We're gambling is prohibited. There's a sign at the town listing. The Ten Commandments is like that'll keep the devil out so Panetta has god country and it's such a Western cliche that I literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle of the street. It's a place where you know your neighbor and you know that really knowing knowing him means understanding. What's your business would isn't ask someone about Glen Jones and they'll say they knew him? Nice guy blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic can tells me they wouldn't wanNA speculate about Wia. Bombing occurred in their town but then offered an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of a workplace grievance between Glenn Jones. It's and Josh cluff Josh at one time was Glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends. Glenn even helped Josh build his house in Panetta but about a year before the bombing Glenn Leftist job at the hospital later he also losses nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe Glenn Blamed Josh at her dad and the he had a grudge with him. Glenn Wadsworth family home is next door to the cliffs. He was out mowing the John when the bombing happened. It was the last person to seek lend Jones alive. The gentlemen got out of that car and I watched him get out of that car walk around back in the House and he walked back in you know he weighed that me and <hes> was mowing the lawn what we're told us that this weird feeling came over and while he was mowing that he should skip the rest of the front yard and move around to the back so we did and they're no question that I wouldn't be here. Mode the east side and then the southside saved my life that night sure in fact nobody but the bomber was hurting the blast. This was a common story. I heard everyone remembers where they were. For that day and how no one got hurt even when shrapnel rain down like hail of a clear blue sky the worst thing that happened was a boy who's riding his bike by the clubhouse got smacked with a piece of something was knocked off his bike. Uh He got a bruise really I mean you probably could look at that kid shoulder and they wouldn't even be a scar that kid's mom works at the local bed and breakfast. She made us pancakes when we were there and she told us she thought the angels of Panetta's acas ancestors were looking for the town that day for some people in Panetta. That's really all the explanation they need. God kept them safe. Ernie official answers anyway. Share Flea tells me that shortly after the bombing bombing it became an F._B._i.. Investigation and all the F._B._I.. Told me when I asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the F._B._i.. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear earlier. Nobody in town could really answer my questions but people were still thinking about it. A couple people asked me to call them if I found out what really happened between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff it's only after I left Panetta that I may be found an I answer an answer that pointed to something much bigger than a petty disagreement between co workers after visiting `Pinaka I started calling around. Glenn Jones had been living in Kingman Arizona in an R._V. Park right before the bombing happened a called all the tattoo shops in town thinking maybe someone would remember doing a weird phone number Tattoo and while my calls did peak the curiosity of a lot of kingman tattoo artists I know knew anything about it. I also look for Jones's relatives online but turned up. Nothing substantial what I did learn is that Jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army and National Guard hard but he never saw combat in fact. He never left his home state of Colorado during his service in Kingman Jones was as well liked by the people there as he wasn't Panetta remembered for his deference more than any other quality the manager of the R._V. Park where he lived told me that just days before the bombing Jones came into his office and paid the rent for a neighbor going through chemo. He told the manager not to say who did it. AN PANETTA ACA not only did no one say negative thing to me about Jones most wouldn't even call him by his name. They referred to him as the suspect or the person. The National News didn't cover it either. This was a bombing on American soil and sure no one was hurt but the bomber but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story after the bombing the Kingman Police Department rated Glenn Jones's trailer so I got copies of their police reports they found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals Jones's name on the cover inside one there were diagrams for a bomb and one detective said quote the entries indicated that Glenn Jones had been approached by subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device the intended target the officer wrote wrote was identified as Fourth of July B._L._M.. Field Office but here's where things get murky because the fourth of July came and went that year and nothing happened in by July Thirteenth Jones a decided instead to target Josh Cliff. Here's share Fli he. I don't know I don't know and I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point time. They're very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would've wanted to bomb a beal field office and it turned out there was hello everyone come one cow Bush Dan for freedom and I promised that I'd make more videos when things progress between me and the federal government to bail am in particular and they have before the twenty sixteen takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Nobody really knew Lavoix Finchem by the time he went to Oregon the most public facing presence he had where the youtube videos he'd been posting for a few months about his fight with the Bureau of land management. Remember remember he's the guy from Malaya who's killed reaching for a gun in his jacket. During a traffic stop at a roadblock set up by police to arrest the leaders of the occupation wait for now you need to know is that by July twenty sixteen when the bomb went off in Nevada cluff home Finnigan was dead in the Patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering Americans in your hand everywhere you look in the Patriot Patriot movement you'll see Finnigan's cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People are at songs about him <music>. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report. Kingman police wrote that there was an entry in Jones's notebook indicating that L- avoid comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the office and that quote Josh is the cousin of Lavoix Finchem. I was able to confirm the Josh. CLUFF is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved so I asked sheriff. Lee was angry angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way. Before the bombing that lead did see an anti-government Sidique love. You didn't WanNa give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis. Assists but the gist was that at the hospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for it themselves cleft wasn't having it yet really angry. Started yelling got a little bit of eye-opening putting about how Josh felt about government overreach so just to be clear Glenn Jones blew up the House of Josh cluff who is related to Lavoix Finchem Vinnicombe death according to the police report was possibly Glenn Jones's motive for the bombing of a beal and building but that bombing never happened Jones targeted cluff instead. It's unclear whether cluff in Jones were working together other to bomb the bill and building it first and something went wrong or Jones was working alone and decided to bomb clubhouse for some other reason what was close role and all this was he ever investigated. I don't know because the F._B._i.. Won't even tell me there is an investigation so what happened between the two of them. We know they were involved. Financially police found a contract for twenty two acres of land that Jones bought from cluff for fifty thousand thousand dollars. There is also account that would pay out to cluff in the event of Jones's death but I can't tell if any of that connects to the bombing cluff is never given any straight answers about Jones or lavoix or bombing. I'm an appeal office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up what few belongings they could salvage and move to Idaho began. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong they only confirmed that they did in fact service search warrant here at the family's new house and also at the families old house the site of the explosion. We're back in Panetta. There's nothing where the house used to be. Just an empty lot filled with mud. I walked the whole perimeter of it while we were there thinking seeing some answer about what really happened might present itself but all I got where muddy shoes and nervous looks from a guy standing quietly on his porch across the street watching Ryan. I poke around like Weirdos so after I got home <hes> I got in touch with cloth on facebook and ask for an interview finally after a few messages he wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past. He said I typed at a response immediately. There wasn't trying to compromise that happiness but it seemed like his side of the story had really come out. What in his mind was the truth? Why the hell then Glenn Jones Josh's phone number tattooed on his body? I hit send by then cluff had blocked me months later. I found an email for him. I reached out again and I tried one more time to get cleft to say something. I sent him the evidence I had N- asked whether the bombing was about his cousin Voy Finnigan he responded quote. Those were terrible times for my family which we were trying to move past have be I did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement have a nice night and please be respectful of what my family has gone on through so here's what we know however the Panetta bombing came to target Josh in Tiffany cluff instead of a be a lamb building it appeared of begun on is a response to the death of a Lavoix finicky him it was in some ways a continuation of occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at Bundy ranch in the years years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs there have been more and more acts of extremist violence popping up in the news and it seems like each time the radical ideas than inform the Patriot movement come up to turn to the news and the man suspected of sending a wave wave of mailbox across the country is in handcuffs tonight like a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals like Barack Obama Hillary Clinton and George Soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cobol. He's also active on social media and often often posted anti liberal messages conspiracy theories to twitter or Georgia man killed a cop in considered himself a sovereign citizen nation unto himself reclaim to be a sovereign citizen meaning. He didn't recognize police authority or the shooter in New Zealand who had been fire onto mosques because of what he saw as a so called white genocide New Zealand as a nation stricken tonight a self-declared white supremacist gunned down Muslims at prayer today not to give the Bundy's too much much credit but no bombs went off at now here. No shots were fired at Bunkerville so in this season of Bundy Ville. We're not actually talking to any BUNDY's instead we're talking about the people who picked up where they left off the remnant unit of their movement and then we're following the violence following the ripple outward from the voice death through Pinakothek. Try and figure out what's coming next and where it will be coming from what the pinnacle bombing probably Italy is is a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent but I couldn't ask Glenn Jones why he blew up the clubs house in the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at Bundy ranch who knew Lavoix Finnigan and who also tried to blow up a government building in the summer of two thousand sixteen and when I called them up. He said he'd be happy to tell me anything. I wanted to know that's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Lisa Tilly Peter Frick right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking walking by Matt Giles Research helped from Kim Freda special thanks to David Study and a shout out to the shamrock pub in Kellyanne Nevada who fed US chips for dinner. Bonneville is a CO production of long reads and Oregon Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation to either long reads or O._P._B.. You can also support Bundy Ville by leaving us a rating review wherever you get your podcasts.

Kingman Jones Panetta Glenn Jones Josh cliven Bundy Josh cluff Josh Tiffany cluff Josh cluff Glenn Jones Ryan Sheriff Jerry Lee Bundy Ville Bonneville Lavoix Finnigan Bundy villa Utah BUNDY producer Bundy ranch Oregon Public Broadcasting
Leah Sottile on Bundyville and American Radicalism

The Lawfare Podcast

1:09:33 hr | 1 year ago

Leah Sottile on Bundyville and American Radicalism

"Cliven grazing his caroline publicly and for a long time but he had paid his bills at twenty a years so basically two thousand fourteen the government says all right we're gonNA come take the cows payment Repossession well cliven takes to the as far as to quotas projectiles with rat poison in the hopes the shrapnel would cause uncontrolled bleeding in its victims an exit the building and obviously pretty dramatic introduction and intersection between the subject of American extremism and your own life Zona Nevada Oregon I mean there are People Montana that come there to protect this rancher in what they see as a show of tyrannical which does a deep dive on America's far right militia movement together they discuss these groups origins and ideologies and what they can teach us about homegrown radicalization at his rally in Minneapolis earlier this week president trump received voluntary security from an unexpected source the oath keepers a far right militia ended a backpack bomb on the parade route near Metro Bench in a brick wall across the street from my favorite bookstore city workers saw that associated with the white supremacy movement nor is this the first time that the trump administration has crossed paths with such groups which become more active in recent years by people that were heavily armed I'm Jacob Schultz and this is the law fair podcast October Twelfth Two Thousand Nineteen we need your help sort of miraculous event where people show up from all over the country I mean I'm talking New Hampshire errors so this is pretty horrible attempted attack took place just outside your front door real I think you mentioned later in the episode that please tip kind of cut off your your entrance read the march was planned to go right through the center of the city a man named Kevin Harper a white supremacist from Stevens County Washington plan packed with fishing weights coated in rat poison and human feces this is going to take out windows it's potentially going to damage cars anybody who's a pedestrian in in modern day America it's the law fair podcast episode four sixty Leah's Sicily on Bundy Ville and American radicalism to learn more about these groups l'affaire senior editor Scott are Anderson recently sat down with journalists Leah's Tilly who's the host of the podcast Bundy Ville backpack in called it in it was filled with wires and it smelled awful Kennedy and of course we now know that Kevin Harper left is bombed here at main in Washington he intended in the immediate vicinity is probably going to be injured and maybe even killed in the days fishing weights would have torn through the marchers like giant shotgun blast harp amid gun Cillian. Let's start our conversation where I think your intersection with this sort of issue instead of issues started and that's within man name forced the government so what ended up happening is that the bureau and management agents there the into the cows found themselves surrounded on all sides Stevens County man has been arrested in connection with a bomb placed in downtown spokane on Martin Luther King Junior Day it was a cold winter morning the day of the Martin Luther King Junior tell us a little bit about what we know about Kevin Harper and the path that led him to this intersection with your life as a journalist in spokane at the time not working police issues sure yeah what's known about Kevin Hart Bone is a lot of what's been reported by predominantly by spokane media the spokesman Review in Kevin Harper. Let me play clip here for you from episode seven of season two Bundy bill breaking news from ally for the FBI confirms a US a black powder explosion to spray all those people in that parade with a rain of these lead fishing weights inside was a six inch long pipe bomb you in particular but what they found was that Kevin Harper them with someone who had been interested in white supremacist ideologies and in in a lot of the things that fuel the white supremacist movement he was also a guy that not a lot of people knew he didn't have a lot of friends he lived in a rural area kind of what we hear a lot about a lot of mass shooters and and things that you know oh he was such a nice guy or he was you know someone and I I knew who he was but I I don't know that I ever talked to him that sort of thing so when everything started to come out it started to look like this was Ah ah bombing that was motivated by the White Supremacist ideology that he believed and and in court that came out to these were he was motivated of a very rural county in northeastern Washington and He was well liked by the people who did know him so so a lot of what was known about Harper was do bomb that parade because of what he believed about people of Color so that yeah that intersected in my own life and that I woke up one day and wasn't able to go out the front door of my apartment building and I worked weirdly I sorta existed on this one city block in order in arts reporter primarily I'd gone to school for Journalism it sort of had a passion for you know punk music and heavy metal and that's what I wrote about it ax we see recently and a big part of that story is one of radicalization of this socialization of individuals into the so you now of several years after the two thousand eleven incident have produced this podcast that does this incredible deep dive into bridge was this was something that had been going on in that area for a really long time and I always knew about it but the sense that you get when you live in that area then spliced paused and dissected by people who never knew him seconds later he dropped the sort of ecology of social institutions and movements in ideology that is motivating a lot of these sorts of incidents not take place and you spend a lot of time really both in both seasons of Bonneville but particularly with this new focus in the second season talking about one of the main figure again they come across like an unfinished sentence are they the start to a threat promise I always think I'll hear some at the time so so I watched as the other reporters in my newsroom worked on this story and and it was a big deal when I learned by sort of our own maybe standard set of some successes a number of disappointments in an adult life and then goes to have this really exceptional ending to his life and then uh-huh Spokane Washington where I lived across the street from the newspaper that I worked at I worked at the the inland or the alternative weekly there and I was a music describe finicky him as a martyr made at the speed of the Internet he goes from this background of pretty standard history somebody with a pretty I in this process of indoctrination and that is someone named La Voie Finnigan let me play another clip for you from episode three for a long time with it went away when the area nations went away I think harping bombing as evidence that it didn't go away and that it's still stills air I've seen Voi- finchem die and die and die I can log onto youtube right now and watch even more exceptional afterlife that plays into this broader system of again ideologies that are moving was behavior let's thank dead kill back it up played again his words sound like a nervous mantra started because he was just so mild mannered and so so so easy to talk to reporters were having these great long interviews stronger than spirit death on repeat took finicky is known for now later in this episode you'd Geology that leads to a war certainly too many of us seem pretty extreme violent horrible behavior but there are also other types of radicalization other types of indoctrination new intonation some missed revelation but finicky I'm always dies the same three POPs doesn't jump or Yelp just crumble season two Bundy Ville were you talk a little bit about Lavoix and the role that he has come to play in the lot of these right wing movements the ground and as the top see shows from the corner he was shot three times want those people to have again and again watched his pickup crash. The driver's door fly open so so what I did with this season of Bonneville was I wanted to get like a definitive life story of WHO Finna come was he's an interesting guy I mean immediately I I was interested in who he was and what his story was when he was at the refuge which is really when the story caught my interest doing these press conferences every day where telling people what the heck is going on and why they're even there in the first place and Finicky is often they're speaking to reporters and the first time you sort of comes onto the scene is during the twenty sixteen occupation of the Malaya National Wildlife Refuge when Ammon Bundy and his the Ryen Bundy led an armed occupation of federal property there in South Eastern Oregon Vinnicombe shows up and pretty quickly the Bundy's the refuge and he he first became involved with the Patriot movement apparently during the Bundy ranch standoff in twenty fourteen start with the man himself gives a little background about Lavoix Finna come and his life before he began himself down on this path that ended in his death in two thousand six he lived all over the West he was married several times he had a bunch of kids twelve total and then he became a foster parent in Philly Com hops out as a yells to the police. You're going to have to shoot me then three Bullets Bang Bang on the Navajo reservation and he always wanted to be a cowboy and he couldn't quite make that dream of being cowboy work also body tencent alive one second have you sack of bone strapped to the ground for eternity the next puppet without a hand gravity mild mannered decent rancher who raised a lot of foster kids so soon he was sort of an outlier I think for this movement in that he it's with him and kind of these philosophical conversations so Finnigan is actually one of the only ranchers that showed up to this you know quote unquote ranchers protested real down into why the heck he got involved in this in the first place so you mentioned two things that I wanted flesh out here for our listeners has really everything I repent started in like twenty fourteen and and that was only the last two years of his life and so I wanted to know damn sure so we're gonNA come Robert Voy Finnigan is his full name. He was a rancher from air northern Arizona in the end for the movement and even in the season one when I sat down with Cliven Bundy and his son Ryan Bundy they talked about how lavoix really was it wasn't in a militia and he hadn't been rallying against the government for a long time like Cliven Bundy ad he was just this sort of perfect person often violent and bloody wave one of those in particular is nineteen ninety-two Ruby Ridge standoff in in northern Idaho where a man and his family were living really remote area of Idaho and he failed to show up to court in so US marshals came out to bring him to court and what ensued wrong ideas about the government and there have been multiple in big instances in the Patriot movement history where they clashed very publicly with the government and it's about ninety miles away from Las Vegas a rural area but not the most rural area that you can go to in the West but it's weird cliven bundy his lived the perfect spokesman for their movement because he was so likable by people on every part of the spectrum so like you say like you you played in that clip you know I was this long standoff that resulted in many people dying both members of the Weaver family and in particular one was a child when he arrived on the scene of the Patriot movement as I like to say in two thousand sixteen he was known around North Northern Arizona as this thousand fourteen incident and Bunkerville that got involved in this Patriot movement gives us more back a little bit of short background on that and then Lee eld and also us marshals so that's a moment in time I think that really exemplifies a lot of what the Patriot movement believes that that it's it's people who oftentimes are in militias there maybe against paying their taxes they have pretty strong leading up to levels involvement what was he stepping into when he showed up in two thousand fourteen okay so I the Patriot movement has been around a really long time another big kind of re Ridge esque events play out in Bunkerville Nevada that's down in the you know very southern part of me that you oftentimes have to take out a grazing permit with federal agency in his case Bureau of Land Management and basically you know there are public lands of twenty years he has not paid his bills to the federal government so when you ranch in the West or around the United States unceasing mammoth so sort of miraculous event where people show up from all over the country I mean I'm talking New Hampshire sonal Nevada Oregon I mean there are People Montana that come there to protect this rancher in what they see as a show of tyrannical much of his life and he is a cattle rancher there and he's one of the last if not be less cattle rancher in Clark County Nevada and for the things happen during that event in which one of cliven sons with he's by bureau land-management officer and there were dogs that were I'm not familiar with them one of those is the Patriot movement itself and then you mentioned the Bundy's a number of time cliven Bundy on a number of other Bundy's and the role they played in the Tudor media starts going to militias and saying they're coming to get me they're coming to take my cows they're coming to kill my family and we need your help in in over the country that Americans can use to recreate or you know do all kinds of things on but one of those uses is ranching and in order to do that you have to the government is so oppressive and tyrannical that will come after people who wanna live their own way so in in twenty fourteen we saw who he was in the previous fifty some odd years so what turns out to be is that he was a rural guy grew up in a in a Mormon family arrange to you know charge people money to use public lands that the public land doesn't even exist and the federal government has no business telling people cows as payment you know like a repossession and so they planned this big round up well cliven takes to the right wing media you know Internet at federal officials and got away with it and You know I think had that not happened then in twenty sixteen cliven Bundy I people were that were heavily armed and they sit down and that was seen as a real victory for the Patriot movement on there was some other the two sons eminent Ryan would not have traveled to Oregon to take over a federal wildlife refuge there now the twenty twenty sixteen event is have a grazing permit where the government says yeah this is public land but you are allowed to graze your cows here so cliven has grazing his cow them publicly Nevada what to do so like I said it was seen as a real victory for the Patriot movement and was seen as a time when the American citizens pointed guns and for you know for a long time but he had paid his bills in twenty years so basically in two thousand fourteen the government says all right we're GONNA come runoff crops and things like that to be able to replant this fire in particular got out of control and it was also suspected they were actually poaching so the Bundy's took over the refuge sort of in this show force that they thought that that was another example of Taran ICAL government controlling people government would be aggressor coming at them and so they were just defending themselves but that whole event was grounded in this idea that the federal government just doesn't have inching duo went to jail for less than five years were released and then on appeal they were hauled back to jail dear own eagerly so this these ranchers were called to jail they were given a mandatory minimum sentence of five years but the as of two ranchers in Oregon in that area that had land bordering the refuge that were they were convicted of setting four of the government so what ended up happening is that the bureau land management agents there that into get the cows found themselves surrounded on all sides idiological perspective that the Bundy's and presumably many of those who join them in two thousand fourteen share this criticism of the federal government's ownership ah handed back to the people of Harney County which is the county that was in but it also coincided with this pretty dramatic case the fire on federal land basically you know people used fire in the West to control it it helps prevent wildfires they burn and sort of you know nipping at the crowd a woman was knocked to the ground and the and the Bundy's continued today to show that that is the the judge in the case said that just seems egregious and I think he said it would shock the conscience that that's what they should serve these men the father and son I know that that refuge was even there it's a bird refuge and you know you see a lot of older people you know in kind of like outdoor it's a really it's not a book it's like a packet of papers but it it shows How cliven Bundy his neighbor another another LDS command named Keith who has since passed they basically got together all the time to talk about Mormon scripture and what they did is they assembled all of land their ability to even own land legally under the constitution or under with other system of natural natural law you think applies what other aspects of idiot algae the Bundy's bringing to the table though because there's not just a secular kind of constitutional critique there's also a religious aspect of this there is yeah so one razzie clothing and binoculars that go there to look at birds and enjoy the outdoors they came there and sees that property and said we're not leaving until is about the federal government not being able to own land and you know they treat the constitution as if it's a holy taxed the bunnies are also very religious thing because I mean I've talked to LDS scholars all over the country and they said this is this is bizarre this is not what the perch agrees times and that at some point they would be forced to do basically the constitution would be hanging by a thread and their words and they would they would awesome these ideas and it turns out there was so it's easier on a bunny though we talk a bit about this document that was given to me call the name Book Elliot's Church thinks of that as kind of this urban legend but with the Bundys you saw people not only not thinking urban legend but doubling down on it and actually India you know Internet media starts going to militias insane? They're coming to get me they're coming to take my cows they're coming to kill my family different in what they did there is that they went into the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which is you know I lived in Oregon almost my entire life at that point and I did the pieces of scripture that they thought affirm their belief that the LDS people would be the final protectors of the constitution and the of Bundy what was really interesting exercise I mean they both were but not one I wanted to know why Cliven Bundy got these ideas and I actually got a statement from the Mormon Church thing this is not what we condone and it's based on a prophecy and I say that with quotes around it bull there Mormons or LDS and I wanted to know if there was just some part of their ideology their religious ideology that led to it so to do these things we since releasing Bonneville season one what I've found out from a lot of people that that that prophecy the so called prophecy which is called the White House Eh that the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith Maybe said that the Mormon people would be the final protectors of the constitution but most of be the ones that would be forced to protect it and they would be saved because of that so certain sort of blew my mind a little bit that this sort of salvation narrative was tied up with the United States document so I actually went to Bunny ranch and I talk to them about the book and and without was and it was it was interesting so that's kind of the buddy story in a nutshell with that season one of the show with her so you mentioned this I prophesy is more believed in around the American West and a lot of people would like to let on so so the Bundy's in that regard you know they they made this book and distributed this Packet Disney book Pakistan and kind of went lean hard obviously into that beliefs while so so Lavoix keenum shows up in two thousand fourteen in this situation up until this point is you know in the podcast you know he management was up on his payments unlike the Bundy's what happens after two thousand fourteen how does it change at trajectory of Adam's life yeah I mean afterwards you know I was able to get a bunch of letters through foia requests that he had written to the the Om Office there in his area he was in good standing with him he paid all bills on time you know he'd have long conversations with these guys that were land managers out there but she had had faced a lot of setbacks seemed to be kind of as close as the gotten to this dream of being a rancher and Family Mana wife several kids foster children what are you talking about what what why and he just felt that he had to stand up against the government in this sort of image the cliven Bundy had like he was actually trying to plan some sort of violent confrontation with the government as well and that's the part that I think that his family doesn't like to hear people talk about I had this youtube channel where he would talk a lot about it a lot but behind the scenes through other court documents that I found it's widow and so he was sort of planning this violent interaction with the planning that they would that they were gonna come in and take his cattle had been heard through his life but what he saw there I think he was so invigorated by it and saw that maybe there was a real show of force that rural people could have and season two that he wanted to be like the guy in front of the tank Tiananmen Square and that you know if he died the cause would be the poor ranchers he left bunny ranch and really drastically changed his behavior and and his interactions with the federal government so before he went he said you know I just have to take a stand and I'm not gonna I'm not GonNa pay my bills anymore basically and there was this real kind of back and forth that was interesting had was the least actively ranching shirts not always easy you know had had occurred normal life on top which had a normal relationship with groups like the Bureau of land and The you know the they have not been happy with Bundy Ville about because the supposedly he was saying to Bill Keebler militiamen that we talk about when Finnigan showed up in two thousand fourteen in heard these ideas about the government being you know this big bad guy it was not the first time he heard that that was something that that Lundy so so I think he was living under this sort of luge in that that that if he died or if he did something with lead you know but by the time he died he really hit only wrapped up a little over a thousand dollars in grazing fees and it took the government twenty years to come get clients I think that Finicky I'm showed up there and found a lot of like minded people who maybe there's been hearing a lot of the same things about the government that he had through his life I mean showed that he did and finicky was really public about that all of a sudden he was gonNA stop paying his bills and stand with other ranchers some progress but it's it's pretty unclear what that world would look like I guess if he was successful so Vinnicombe faces this dramatic and saying that we heard described in the clip we played just a few minutes ago and it's one that's particularly dramatic because it's this kind of impromptu confrontation where they departed the reserve briefly They had this confrontation other people in the vehicle ended up surrendering vinnicombe is vocally a little more resisting and it's been hot on media from all directions there is not only video from the outside there's also you know people inside the car with him recording you can hear some of them in the clip we in reply from one thousand perspectives over and over again on social media on the Internet and at least two Finnigan becoming this something more than just a man to having this pretty exceptional afterlife facilitated in part by his surviving wife and others describe for us a little bit what his legacy has been what we played a sang has did they shoot them did they shoot him and all of this media does create this effect that you described so well of being able to see this death radio of his shooting of his shooting death because you know immediately after it happened I think that the FBI and the government had to get in front of what they figured would be you know conspiracies about it and so they released this footage aerial footage that was taken by a drone that was at least not came out really quickly well then almost just as quickly came out the cell phone video from inside the car where you hear you know the people in the car over the traffic stop and followed incomes truck as he drove away from police and it didn't have any audio and things like that and and they the sound of the window shattering and tear gas being blown and that kind of thing so rounds out the story a little bit more and role has come to play in this bronx towards a broader movements Sherri yeah any something really exceptional like you say about about this becomes the smarter for this movement in a way that you know the Waco standoff in the mid nineties that that people saw the video that was meant to sort of like conspiracy theories just led to wild conspiracy theories in the end so in in the end finish calm but all of a sudden he's fleeing away from a traffic stop he's jumping out of a car saying you're GonNa have to shoot me and he gets it like way totally different things they take away that here's this man who's scared he's saying I'm GonNa go talk to the sheriff in the next county over who happened you speak with law enforcement he agreed with that he wouldn't have carried a gun inside of his jacket pocket that he that he was simply slipping and so now you know Vinnicombe that name here here's this man who ranch in the middle of nowhere who it was known by almost no one has I see it a million different ways so you know one way that people see it is that here's this man who was involved in a prolonged become so well known throughout the world because of his videos and now his cattle brand I mean you can see it everywhere people have attached I wanNA say necessarily manufacturing packaging elements of his legacy and kind of using that communicating that to certain audiences you sat down to be a constitutional sheriff who believes many if not all of the same things that informed the refuge stand up and that he was simply fleeing to right and killed while reaching inside his jacket so people see it one way as justify police shooting on the other hand you have people who see that very same video you know be really scared about what's happening and sort of talking about what they can do they can call in and you know and then after Finnegan shot and I think that being able to splice those two videos together and show it from inside the car and outside the car it ended up being that people's chewed on their bodies their bumper stickers and t shirts and hats and you know songs that have been written about him in in the in the name of Oy is is something that is seen as like almost like a holy like Jesus like figure and that has become very pack powerful well I think in recruiting new people to move men now part of that was organic you can see that with the social media environment that we free event that was in Oregon capital Salem where people were gathering to to sort of honor and remember La Voie and talk about his we have you're getting these very dramatic clubs dramatic developments but part of it wasn't organic part of it was a conscious effort by people to who are kind of what that the the US that people have made of his legacy and and what rules continue to play as a tool or as a product that certain people are died who get you know anniversary commemorations of their debt and such a big way so really I wanted to go and just hear what was being talked about there in this sort of perfect character for people to say look at this rural man who was just trying to stand up for his rights and and that's what he's been common arm standoff with other people who believe that the government is oppressive people who are very well armed and rippled through the crowd that was there it was all stuff that everyone already knew but it was like they wanted to keep remembering it and talking about it search and he said yeah it is church like there are songs and things you know when you when people repeat the same thing over and over that they know already and stumbling and the deep snow they don't seem to have much of an explanation for why he was saying you're going to have to shooting but the but the this is just to say that the very specific end cap of his life that we've discussed today and didn't give a whole lot more information would've watches is that information uh-huh disseminating sure yeah so in in we've it's episode three of season to go to this three year anniversary into the movement so but also you know it was interesting to see the types of people that were there you know they were predominantly white predominantly older folks but the and watch US shooting video that they've seen thousands of times if feels like a group of people who just want to remember that moment smarter and you you hear people talk all the time within this movement about the fear of Muslims and and down for Bundy Chelsea's in to and listen to one of these shows led by believe Mister Phantoms wife can you give us a little sense of suicide bombers and and martyring themselves and it starts to feel release similar in regards to Lavoix so so yeah that's so this this image of Vinnicombe is sort of wrapped up in a religious liberty and an Americanism that felt very specific to me that they all became I guess radicalized in a way maybe they were on the fence and then they saw this shooting video and pushed them over hissy and you know what brought me there was sort of this this these two very disparate images of his death but also you know I don't know a lot of people who have very very specifically Christian and very specifically white and that's really who genetic com- has shown this video to I asked for a copy of the video martyr and what are people willing to do for a martyr I mean right like we see people doing a lot of things for a murder you know Jesus way to understand the the rest of those fifty years of his life than going and watching this video would I found that is that her videos really only played to this in the past few years some people have started to call this region the American readout a readout is kind of military fortification and encouraging libertarians improper from around the country to make a home here they're even readout realtors will sell you a house complete with a bomb and as I was sitting there I looked at my producer Ryan half who come my reporting partner in this whole thing just because it's such a gigantic story and I was like this is like this Idaho it actually couldn't be less in line with that image deeply conservative area the West tot and dry in the summer coldest hell in the winter cler areas that's a road show is different parts of the West but you really pick one part of the country kind of focus on as perhaps emblematic of whatever Oh and was not able to get any I couldn't purchase one or anything like that that may have changed at this point but she chooses pretty specifically who shelter so this episode is about Stevens County but it's also about this region as a whole and you can't talk about the violent history of Stevens County without so you kind of introduced Stevens County to the Bundy variance you might think of the northwestern U. S. is all rain showers and mountain what the government did there and and the people there who died were seen as martyrs or what happened at Ruby Ridge those people were seen as martyrs so it's just so finicky author preacher and had a church called the Church of Jesus Christ Christian which practiced Christian identity which is an ideology that believes that Jews are the passages given to not kind of just letting me on this you know trip of your season two of trying to figure out like who else is sees a little boy as Kevin Racism and and sort of racist cloak I think that always hanging over the North West so uh early nineties Richard Butler and his friends would host these big Nazi parades in Quarterlane Idaho in this kind of cute little resort Stevens County at all and it was Situated there in the late seventies by a man named Richard Butler Butler was a white supremacist and he happening in a broader region in different pockets around particularly the American West early the party United States as well and that Stevens County Washington let's listen to a brief clip here we what what light he was being painted in so so genetic him his wife has made these movies about his life and I figured you know what better I understanding the Aryan nations so you mentioned area nations once before the important role they play a particularly in created this kind of home base for white supremacists around the country at the Aryan nations compound and North Idaho and he also fashioned hymns these records coffee shops and we'd stores on every corner right but this part of the North West I'm about to tell you about eastern Washington East sides of the state are very rural very conservative and Stevens County and all this stuff is very it's so much closer to Idaho the big huge counties that are really close to Idaho where they've been known for a long time as places that people don't want to be those that there are people there who just don't want to be bothered and Stephen County is absolutely one of those places so we get into Stephen Counties Pacific in eastern Washington so so it's sometimes I think hard for people to understand that there's in Oregon and Washington in particular you have these very John of even Satan and you know Christian identity takes on a lot of different forms but it's something that really appealed to a lot of so we've got a few different kind of movements interacting at this point we have the Patriot movement associated with the Bundys we have the area that if Lavar the martyr that we uncovered was a you mentioned that you know these videos are being brought to particular communities and in there and we talk about how genetic com- brings her video about about her husband to this secretive closed religion actions which was in a particularly promising eighties nineties then we have you know interactions with both religious identities and ones that are more anti gun Weizman sisters history of an appealing to white supremacists so area nations was there for a long time you know up until the eighties and into the Oh to where the nation's was than than any of that progressiveness of the West Side so even county ponder Ray County Ferry County these are all the around cities who want to get out of society can go and really be left alone I think that's one thing that anybody who spent time in the rural west this compound in Stevens County that has led by people who were foundational framers of some Christian identities most important ideas people who are really suspicious about the government so you know like I said earlier you you'll find like militias and sovereign citizens and tax protesters and blue democratic progressive cities that are on the western side of the state in the middle of the state you have these gigantic mountains and the in the upper northwest and this evolution of Stevens County and related Patriot movement related movements there give us some background that what on and people would come out in droves to protest it and and it was sort of this you know very very public clash of these ideas and free speech white supremacist but in need movement they often well come white supremacists in their ranks which I think is is suspicious point for a variety of circumstance getting to until the podcast the nation's shuts down and he loses the property and it's bulldoze but when that happened moment how do they interact with their relationship and how do they have this kind of mix of these strains in Stevens county are they're made rural county there's a history of these Christian identity churches being there these churches that believe you know an anti Semitic ideology and there have been really violent white supremacy that have come from those places particularly Kevin Harper who he talked about it at the top of the show so so that's kind of Hawaii we get into the area and those who aren't perhaps white and Christian who lived there yeah I think people of Color and Stephen County you know have sometimes you know you mentioned that during the twenty sixteen maller event that people started referring to the occupiers of the reserves so like for example during the two thousand sixteen occupation the wildlife refuge the Bundy's were called you know racist and things like that and they and they were I think a lot of people in the United States particularly those at eastern urban areas don't encounter these groups already allergies very often are dismissive nations and use that as a way to talk about you know this history in this area that that has led to you know these sort of racist ideas persistent as y'all Qaeda or Vanilla Isis terms obviously kind of being a little bit derogatory and nuncius towards them but it can be more serious than that can you are excited about those ideas and I think they just kind of fanned out or they just went home to where the where they always were and one of those nearby county same thing that there's people with racist ideas there are people who are just you know don't want the government to own land or don't WanNA pay their taxes is there in nation and how did it impact the trajectory of Stevens County yeah so the nation was located in northern Idaho so actually not in you know I I think a lot of people thought well the Nazis are gone they're going to move somewhere else but that really wasn't the case there are a lot of people in the area that were glee be has not because it's where the Indian nations was but it's because there were you know huge sparsely populated like we're you know we're not racist but within their ranks of the people leading occupations were white supremacist so so I think in Stevens County it's sort of the there and maybe we should question that instead of make fun of it or on say well you know if you talk about the area nations or you talk about Christian identity the vote he would not even considered serious candidates so so I think that's just to show that there are people who are willing to come to the sides of the people in this movement describe for us a little bit what the presence of these sorts of groups both theory nations and case kind of successor groups has meant for people in Stevens County is part of the country particularly you you're just giving those people more attention to perhaps helping them do their recruiting I think that that's that's the case but you know I think it's important also to add that data you know the Bundy's are huge name and Ryan Bundy ran for a winner last year only got you know he got a smaller intermingling and uniting I guess in these instances like we've seen with the bundies and the the standoffs that they lead you see a lot of people with different ideas in and fight for them but they're not they're not a gigantic group well you know in spite of the fact that that these aren't necessarily Donald people who are sort of you know prep or survivalists and that's not to say everyone that considers themselves up you know quote unquote member of the Patriot movement is the in the West and in Stevens County these are not prominent ideologies we could see that as evidence maybe a little relief in that what we talked about in Bunny Ville season to just that were like hey this stuff has been there and it still it's kind of agreeing on the principle you know nugget that that rose those so I think that's the case in Stephen County I think it's a case in a lot of counties in the West branches differences or is there kind of cross fertilization that tends to have I think you don't have one of those relic arms captures a lot of I am but a lot of people contacted after bunny bill and see them one saying Yeah I learned that and I also learned that we weren't supposed to talk about it so that was that was interesting theologies they are ones that have pretty prominent spokespeople and that includes some people in the United States government one you spend affirmative time on I think we have to talk about is representative Brad Former Representative Matt Shea from Washington State legislature let me play the clip where you kind of they are the population centers and they dominate politics and they dominate you know the way laws go and there is a very real thing both believed the feds are setting up concentration camps to imprison Americans representative good to have you on with us thank you for having me conspiracy theories thing in doing things that might ruin other politicians like back in two thousand nine he talked with conspiracy King Alex Jones on infowars about how the which is almost impossible to do and he even said that it's not a new idea I'm not the first person to have this idea but I think he's probably the person who's the most series contest us that leaked a few years ago called the biblical basis for war can you describe for these kind of two separate ideas how they relate to each other and how they so as a minimum they're all at the same rally he talked about the government collapsing like it was an opportunity chance to get stuff done we now representative Shea is associated with a couple of pretty out their ideas but that has to make our own state like let's take our ball and go home and so he he talks about this idea it's not a new idea in fact I talked to that Shea to prepare for the inevitable collapse it's going to happen and yes I said that as a politician here onstage it's GonNa Happen we in Washington with this idea of the State of Liberty it it's this idea to create a fifty first state where eastern Washington would be severed off Krizan Americans he says you need to prepare for the apocalypse so last year this document is leaked to the media by a former security staffer have the obviously the constituency that he keeps coming back Stevens County for that appeals to him or that he appeals to one of them is this idea of the vet the question is and I think the question should be for all of us what are we gonNa do afterwards what are we going to do with that opportunity what are we going to do to prepare ourselves for that time the new State of liberty during the American redoubt into potentially a separate state kind of focused on autonomy and another one arguably relates to a documentary into its own place in part of that gets to this idea talking to earlier about you know that that Seattle in Washington and Portland Oregon it's about it and You know he he wants to shave also a politician who spent very little time in Spokane Valley he went in in in in Washington where people in rural areas feel like their vote just doesn't matter and so what she is doing kind of capitalizing on that idea and saying well then always been a part of Shay's public persona when Alex Jones teed up the FEMA camps story matches took a swing well I I I am aware of what you're talking to does that he's supposedly wrote down from a sermon and it advocates for a certain way of life than continues you know if things that aren't repealed until people and the crazy part is like that kind of thing leaks to the media based on the Bible that is based in Christianity those based on the Old Testament to be honest and if people don't comply with the Oh can where I used to live nearby borders Idaho and You spend all this time like say kind of campaigning around occurred so I think like you see these ideas intermingling in that people start seeing this state of liberty idea as less of a like appeal fit into what appears to be Matt Save kind of Political Ideology Yeah so matt she is from Spokane Valley which is a city actually separate and to the twenty fourteen bundy ranch standoff in Nevada he went to the twenty sixteen occupational wildlife refuge he talks about these FEMA camps being built too I suppose the new society based on these principles you know quote kill all males it's you know same sex marriage candles that none of which have quite led however to his defeat electorally so far in two thousand fourteen you guys describe he was overheard by your waitress discussing Dale religious institutions were non-christian groups and other organizations that my you know don't seem to fit with his ideology and the other sort of extreme broadcast with this group called team rugged which is actually training kind of young adolescent men in the use of firearms and the use of other sore to rural voters have boys and more like match trying to set up a biblically governed state that where you know marijuana's illegal and text messages were leak that Shea was involved with where he and other right wing figures prominent re doubters the FEMA camps which vary in most particularly disturbing about that is that they're going to be on former military bases a ton of people have expressed their concerns that what they're really building plans with the oath keepers and militia group actually called them in because she thought they were terrorist group planning a terrorist attack he is very has been linked to plans to Sir we're talking about committing violence against liberal protesters and in that match offer to background those people this was this sort of plan for for this new society he hopes to lead an so represented shays kind of gotten caught up in a few actors political future. No I don't think there is what is going on with Matt Shea is that he is under investigation for one of the same sex marriages illegal and women have fewer rights and all kinds of things so so that you know when biblical basis for war came out that's how it was interpreted and most politicians I think would say like I have nothing to do with that I don't know what that is but shave like doubled down and was like yeah I did write that down but it was it was the sermon there's been a lot of stories come out about Shea and I think in one regard it's made people in Washington state more aware that he's there but in his involved with this this group and even county called Marble Community Fellowship disclosed religious community that we talk about in the podcast and in camps I think you're just here he is on stage militia rally in twenty thirteen if you do not have five thousand rounds of two to three five thousand rounds of twenty two in one thousand rounds of Han go man it's of military tactics implicitly in preparation of wraps experts in preparation for some sort of action or some sort of moving in the future can you discover these boys are training in the art of Biblical War is what they say and they're being led by the pastor of that fellowship and it's at that that religious community that this group team rugged which you know a lot of teenage maybe like lower twenty so he's under investigation right now to see to look more into the story I guess those text messages so but yeah he's also so there are people who who believe in what he believes and I I don't know that they've been deterred by any of these scandals of course metro no he has a fundraiser with like way more people than maybe would have been there before any of this happened so it's really hard to say what is going to happen with shame the district I think it's caused him to maybe even more support because they see these things and see and they don't like the media and actions must reasonably he's Kinda come under some more heat in relation to this biblical basis for war on because of other interactions you had which also I think play recording of in the whether he will ousted I don't think that anybody should put much stock in that he's been voted in for six consecutive terms the Senate confirmation of Grove land-management someone who's publicly argued the federal government should be able to legally hold land and they is proceeding with a plan to reassign some isn't the only politician whose rhetoric and ideas and he algae lease Intersex or has a relationship with some of these other ideas you know that there are at least Emmons the two people who suspect starting the fire that led to the mailer occupation ultimately William Penn lay his acting director I mean not soon the old strange perverse things to say he continues to maintain a lot of support from Christians and I think that that that definitely thing like between eighty and ninety percent of the Bureau of land management staff from Washington DC to the American West what is the relationship between perhaps more mainstream relationship between the two beyond just you know common touch points of criticism of the federal government. Yeah I think you know one thing that I I noticed vigilence against the Liberals and preparing for this sort of end I guess is it so so that you know as Bunny Ville came in Jason Wilson from the Guardian has been reporting it's Chad socal the spokesman review has been reporting Daniel Walters at the inland are you scandals that that you actually you didn't mention but it is one of the game the dozens of scandals I guess they're not shaved careers becoming defined by so a bunch of right wing domestic terrorism really poses for law enforcement particularly for federal law enforcement on the one side These radiology is premised the the spectrum of you know there's not there are ties between the trump administration and the Bundy's and some other movements in small ways the president trump of course part in the Gotcha in a in a video saying wow you guys are awesome and stuff so sort of like this whole world around shave this biblical basis for war and this what is the current state of match what is what is he dealing with in Washington state is there finally sort of critical mass raising these concerns that may impact his it's called the biblical basis for war and he it's you're just laughing because wacky I mean it's this outline of ideas doc felt very very much in line with this kind of Old Testament old world ideas that you hear in sort of the on the idea of an impressive federal government an aggressive law enforcement tactics you know swat raids undercover missions and things that may look like an J. and B. horrified at the idea of people being killed but the end of the day they're going to they're going to support a Christian and that that's Ll's touch points with some of president trump's rhetoric and some of the ideas appeal to are brought up in this broader narrative that shake kind of represents at least one out of of what they see you know I also thought it was interesting a few weeks ago when president trump was saying in speech and you know it feels like every day these movements and these acts as a matter of public policy it's an interesting question I mean I think we talk that at the end of of this this latest season the only plays into the Bundy story into the Bunny Ville story that there there are a lot of people who may look at these things about Max pursuing to trap them in a lot of those ideologies are inherently victimhood ideologies a belief that certain parts of the population in many last few years of these trends that might inform how federal law enforcement or really any law enforcement our the United States government should approach the how you know domestic terrorism is something a lot of people aren't even sure exists they hear that term and they're not quite sure what it means in federal interest in getting what is often described as left of boom at taking preventive law enforcement action that can prevent acts of terrorism like the one that you experienced in light of this string of horrible shootings and other domestic terrorist attack that were continuing to wrestle with is the challenge that areas that are predominantly under their control at least sympathetic to them what kind of lessons have you pulled away from being a very close observer of these and yet they're not seeming to take you know law enforcement doesn't seem to tecoma seriously you know in Portland where I live Kevin Buying into these ideologies maybe not taking the steps that one would hope they would take to counteract vertically wear these groups have these geographic a million days I can't remember what the story was but he said I am the chosen one you know in a speech and it was talking like he's like the king homegrown it's it's American it's White Christian and and and I think that that's something that you know some law enforcement is as far as terrorism in America you know a lot of cases it's these these groups or its subsidiaries of these groups you know my report UNCHRISTIAN parts of the population are being unfairly prosecute by the federal government feeding into that seems dangerous at the same time these potentially violent and there is a real interest terrorism statutes the existing things that we have in place should be used You know hate crimes can be prosecuted things of that nature entrapment feed into that narrative way they echo a lot of the strategies that the people who embrace these patriots allergies I'm say the federal government and that kind of sit

Cliven Bundy Kevin Harper Oregon Bundy Ville Stevens County Washington Stevens County spokane Leah Bundy ranch Sicily America Matt Shea Minneapolis Martin Luther King Junior Washington Montana Metro Bench Jacob Schultz president
Episode 2: The Bomber

Bundyville: The Remnant

34:57 min | 1 year ago

Episode 2: The Bomber

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Bundy Ville wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off in a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates just a warning before we get started. This episode contains mild swearing hiring and discussions about racist ideologies. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen it's February twenty one thousand nine hundred and I met a truck stop outside Salt Lake City Utah just after four o'clock the sons already going down range of snow covered mountains looms nearby producer Ryan has an I have come here to meet with a guy named Phil Keebler and we're nervous. uh-huh okay Keebler has been involved with the Patriot movement since Bunkerville where he says he ran security afterward. He started his own militia fifty seven year old. William Keebler is known by the F._B._i.. As Commander Manager of a citizen Militia Group called the Patriots Defense Force in fact Keebler has been portrayed as one of the most dangerous people in the Patriot movement according to the court documents F._B._i.. Undercover agents infiltrated Keebler Group and took part in field training exercises sizes they say keebler talked members of his militia about quote going on the offensive in June of twenty sixteen just a month before Glenn Jones flip the cluff family home in Panetta keebler hit the button to detonate what he thought that was a bomb set to destroy a building owned by the Bureau of land-management thought is the keyword there it turns out. His bomb was a fake given to him by undercover F._B._i.. Agents who had embedded in his group even before his arrest Bill Keebler thought there was some grand conspiracy of play and that for some reason the government was out to get him personally the thing is it turned out he was one hundred percent right about that from long reads an organ public broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. When Glenn Jones shot himself in the head waiting for his bombs to blow up and Panetta he took with him answers? Here's to all sorts of questions about why did what he did but by talking to Keebler I hope we might learn something about how right wing bombers operate and what they're thinking why does someone in the Patriot movement light diffuse or press the button and why now Keebler Jones had both set off their bombs in the summer of twenty sixteen four to five months after the mail. Your occupation in Oregon had resolved so what changed after Mao hear the vice here today anything smokes in coffee real quick keebler looks like a shriveling old ranch hand. He's got leathery skin. Smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures the two thousand thirteen I had massive heart attack and had to go in for Mercy Open Heart Surgery. We're at a denny's tucked into the corner of the truckstop for most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide lead with his own company Creator gator outfitters offer Georgia critters critic we ease into the conversation Ryan than I just trying to get a feel for who were talking to what we can and can't ask got it but it turns out keebler storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time in the army. Oh Eleven Bravo infantry went to a lot of specialized training for bed in when Germany I'll ended there and I think one of Friday Saturday morning I woke up on Russian Communist. Russian border says he also knows his way around computers used to do code nutrition. They can't break and they still have nothing. I'm in good anyway even says he has a black belt. In Kung Fu studied numerous arts frank black Belton four different styles <hes> an eighty ships eighty six hours before board of Masters and I presented a new system. He says he created his own system of kung-fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly Rambo wishaw and I should be clear. I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but I also wasn't in Utah to figure out whether he got third place in the Kung Fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the F._B._i.. But I that meant convincing him that we weren't f._B._I.. Agents people are afraid to talk to people like I'm GonNa be honestly would surprise me vote. They pull that I just went shutting what I've seen because in keebler swirled everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me story. Don't it's going to die with me. I've been on borrowed time for years. I came here because I wanted to hear Keebler Keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent. I couldn't get answers from Glenn Jones who police said had wanted to target a government building so I had hoped keebler would help me understand why a person will try to detonate a bomb tom but just a few minutes into the interview. What I'm really wondering is how did the F._B._I.? Decide to focus on this guy is this old man in poor health really the most dangerous person Patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part of Bill Keebler story starts in two thousand fourteen when he spent about two weeks and Bunkerville Nevada <hes> cliven Bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the Bundy's hadn't paid their grazing fees and the be Elim had come to collect their cattle. The fact that Keebler was there was later later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back then Keebler says he was a member of the oath keepers a militia associated with the Patriot movement and by his account at Bundy ranch he was a bodyguard regard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. Leave not actually stop a lot of people alike them play at their house Dotson. PEOPLE WANNA shoot people. When I'm getting mad rebound put down my face? He wanted to start the war too far shot just to get started because if one shot had ever went off it's done you don't matter if it was a firecracker backfire necessary S. where everybody's Oh my God i Hope Cardo have backfired you know or so might those down firecracker on the ground things with that cloaks volatile. I mean it was ready. I don't want to Rehash Bundy ranch but the long short of it is no cars backfired. no-one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the Bundy's cows were released the bill. I'm agents left. Keebler was pumped up and the Patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events in this country. Sorry this has in its history Short Boston Tea Party <hes> compared to civil war not like that but it was a wakeup call soon the following months back at home in Utah Keebler started his own militia. He called it Patriots Defense Force or P._D._F.. It was a group of a half a dozen or so guys the got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. Payment prospers talked a lot about going off grid about what to do when shit hit the Fan Keebler even showed people how to raise chickens rabbits for meat then a few months later keebler says he got a phone call from someone he'd met at Bunkerville conquer fill the void finicky. He wanted me to basically come to his place and give him the support that we gave the Bundy's. You'll recall that lavoix finicky was a leader of the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation was eventually killed by police at a roadblock in Oregon and that he was the cousin of Josh cluff whose house was blown up in Panetta but back then Finnigan was just a rancher in Arizona and Keebler our said he was building up to his own bunkerville style standoff with the beal end. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but I do know that around this time in the late summer of two thousand fifteen finicky was becoming agitated with the Bureau of land management so government has said has exclusive legislative power over these lands he was making that pretty obvious on youtube page. No none of these bureaucrats do we allow Kirmani county then of ever accountable to US Mohave County. This is the definition of tiered from the way Keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and Keebler the advertisers his supposed expertise military tactics to anyone who listen was happy to bring his militia. Come help him prepare for the confrontation that Bundy's we got there after the fact if we knew it was coming woman we could be they're prepared because they were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come just take all his cal but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for Finnigan's cattle records from the beal. 'em showed Vinnicombe only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven Bundy owed more than a million dollars crew over twenty years for the beal unplanned a cattle roundup that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop finicky him from preparing for the worst or Keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the Bundy's had done at Finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto the land where he grazes cattle and then spring a trap don't mean ambush assault salt and kill and shoot none of that cracks where thing everybody tries it added ship the plan was to let the be on the property and then use an excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out certain place when they come up to heal them. Cattle hello can't get up hill keillor's saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what I saw Bundy ranch or an Oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and I had to wonder then what they're going to keep them. Hold them hostage pige. Why trap them in the first place but before I could get an answer Keebler told me that another member of his militia wanted to blow them all up Brad Miller's idea was was just keebler says Brad Miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that killing Ms Cantrell to you're killing whoever's truck but Brad Miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass? He was actually an undercover F._B._i.. Agent in fact at varying times there were three confidential informants and three undercover F._B._i.. Agents and keep blurs militia so if you take away keebler the F._B._i.. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of P._D._F.. Militia all this time Finnigan Keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help help a federal agents by the Spring of Twenty sixteen federal agents had been keyboards militia for more than a year trying to quote take his temperature according to text messages between agents and on the surface. It seemed like a standard F. B. I. Undercover Operation We for the bad guys to do bad stuff and then take them down but the more I talked to Keebler in the more the government blocked me from accessing his court records the more I started wonder about what role the government was really playing in the P._d._f.. Militia between the two agents and Leonard Informant Dave became the most active you know they when we went down to Arizona to voice dictate for the whole trip but <hes> they were good financial support and we needed that according to court documents the F._B._i.. Agent who went by Brad Miller taunted Keebler this was the same guy who keebler says had the idea to blow up federal agents didn't unfinished comes property and he said that the Patriots and P._d._f.. Were just quote facebook fucking Nazis in other words guys who have a lot to say online but never take action in real life Keebler in response suggested the group do some recon of potential targets in Salt Lake City agent Brad Miller core documents say was one of the most active members of the militia suggested targeting Muslims but keebler said he didn't know how to find any similar offered to Google mosque trying to to a mosque. I and I said what you've lost your mind now. Look at Brown I said all of and you've lost your F- minds and I've mainly to brag as we were clashing there he said but what would it take. Why couldn't we so I'll tell you why you can't? I said you see that thing behind your of he left shoulder. Look for under the gas towers. You'd be amazed what's Indian things cameras monitor buildings eighty. That's one reason can't you know getting a modest place second. Look at the terrain and now starting to break it down to tell you know for you got look over and people walking out coming outside. They served in basketball. I said you see that. Those are kids. This women the children are playing basketball and shit. y'All loss again so the group moved on and drove past bureau of Land Management Office Miller suggested that they mail a bomb to it or use. He's a truck bomb to blow it up. Dude gone senile. That's feeling the Yin. How many people do you know what's in there? This whole scouting mission was going nowhere. They thought Keebler take the lead and blowing up government buildings but he just wasn't biting if it sounds like the F._B._i.. Was Pushing Keebler to take some sort of drastic action it turns out. Even some of their own agents were worried about that in court court documents their records of text messages one of the other undercover F._B._i.. Agents who went by the name Jake Davis sent to his handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open Pandora's box in a way by taking keebler to a mosque he might not found on his own. I'm worried about our liability. If he happens to go back sometime on his own in another taxed Davis worried about Miller's continued taunting of keebler quote. I'm all for pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas like when Miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car Obama to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in his head over the course of their investigation the F._B._I.. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the West best to Patriot movement gatherings they paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally in the spring of Twenty Sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal facilities ladies way out in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal building that he had scouted near Finnigan's ranch Vinnicombe by then had been killed in a traffic stop in Oregon over the next couple of months the F._B._I.. made him of fake pipe. Pipe bomb and then on June twenty-first Twenty Sixteen Keebler and some of his militia traveled to Arizona and set the bomb outside. The building keyboard pushed the button on a fake detonator the F._B._i.. Gave Him and then the next morning they arrested tested in cops picnic brought me and I'm handcuff misguide comes in and dressed a bigger shitting green on his face allowed Mr neighbor trying August. You're sorry Yes for two years. They had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants in two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert. It almost makes you wonder if the F. B.. I hadn't been around would keillor's militia have just kept on raising chickens cooking rabbits and being facebook. Nazis entrapment is very hard to proven court. <hes> the burden is it. I is on the defense rather than the prosecution to bring bring the case. This is Karen Greenberg. She's the director of the Center on National Security Forum Law School in New York City so I asked her about the legality of the F._B._i.. Pushing a guy like keebler you when you go to court or when you read the court documents they look very much like you know somebody was placed in the midst of this group was listening and picked up information that was used useful and unusable right and then the other end of the spectrum which is who provided did the munitions who provided the plot who provided the ideology who it's it's at hooper who really ran this. If you look at the active elements of it I just want to note that Greenberg's primary focus is international terrorism and she haughty groups ups but there's some crossover between the cases. She's watched and the Keebler case so so like is it common in the cases that you've watched like this that that someone all say like here's a bomb or hey. Why don't we google a mosque for you you? Hey how about this or do this or an in this case is individual keebler was like I don't know guys like you know and then we went and interviewed him and he said I guess I just got it in my mind. That's what I should do at a certain point okay so the F._B._I.'s defense on one is and it's worth thinking about because it's it's got legitimacy to it which is look. I could have been al Qaeda and if I could get them to do it. Don't you think al-Qaeda guy could get them to do it and it works with the jury it works and because what they say to the jury areas. Would you said yesterday this F._B._I.. Guy So maybe that's the logic to the keebler case that if the feds could get to Keebler someone with a plan and target and connections to a bombmaker could too so so he belonged in jail but this interpretation of the law is fairly new controversial the basic rules that they're called the attorney. General guidelines required an F._B._i.. Agent to have have a reasonable indication that criminal activity may occur in the nineteen ninety. S Michael German was an undercover F._B._i.. Agent who went inside militia groups in the Pacific northwest he works for the Brennan Center for Justice now but his previous previous work was infiltrating white supremacist and Neo Nazi groups German tells me that before nine eleven in order to investigate someone the F._B._I.. Needed a reasonable indication that that person was about to commit a crime pretty low standard. I hit most most F._B._I.. Agents wake wake up in the morning pretty suspicious but after nine eleven the Bush administration wrote new guidelines allowing the F._B._i.. To investigate pretty much anyone. Why would you want to investigate somebody you? I don't have a reasonable factual basis to believe are doing something wrong. I mean this doesn't make any sense and clearly what it opens. Up Is the opportunity to to target people who who you don't like German says that in order order to watch someone all the F._B._i.. Needs a theory that maybe that person could commit a crime someday in the future initially it was mostly used against Muslims but has broadened out because it's a successful tactic as far as the F._B._i.. V._I._P. is concerned it is broadened out other groups and my concern with that is your targeting. The lowest hanging fruit right not pretty much describes keebler the low hanging fruit after sitting in talking with him for three hours. I'm not convinced he could put a bomb plot together. He didn't have any targets identified. He didn't know how to build a bomb and when it's defense attorney found those text messages at the F._B._I.. Waffling about whether or not they were putting crazy ideas into who crazy guys head government offered him a plea deal. Even keebler says the F._B._I.. Got To him well. They was held bitten determined to do something and I guess I kinda. Let it get my head that maybe if we did something to Kinda learn road kind of like a warning signal. There are two ways to look at Keebler I as a man with the potential to commit violence because the F._B._i.. May Have given him the bomb but he still hit the button and to be honest. It's easier to see him that way day as an off his rocker militia member but that's probably too easy of an answer because whatever he did he probably wouldn't have been able to do it without the F._B._I.'s help. So how much blame does he really deserve whichever version of bill keebler there's more accurate guy were talking to here at Denny's is a paranoid man who thinks to the government may actually be justified in that paranoia at one point in our conversation. He went silent then told us that we were under surveillance and he based on us. Well okay. We'll be in watched F._A.. Or inform you just want bud. Did you see yeah for two years the F._B._I.. Tracked Bill Keebler and now he sees them everywhere. They're watching him when he smokes in his backyard goes goes to the grocery store. They're hiding in plain sight serving coffee at Denny's just to get to him. It's not every day you talked to someone who's tried to bomb building and I have to say for a while talking to Keebler. I felt like the F._B._I.. Had totally missed the mark and basically manipulated and otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent Jason Anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when I asked him about how he thinks. The federal government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government the state government would that look like like would that would that running their own themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be. The government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs. He says that the government can do. It's thing trading rating with China in Korea it is no damn business running Utah Georgia or Texas then he starts talking about how Muslims are taking over schools. You can't do pledge allegiance in school with now. We got Muslims praying and everything else in in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like Muslims I._S.. Keebler give me an example where this was happening but he just said number places yeah they've taken over host cities. They WANNA stop prayer. They won't stop all the American stuff boy scouts and everything make an Islam. They're out in the streets right me with hundreds of Alan to shut down hole rose in concert standing over mixture. Nobody erupts them. Are you serious badly tanks for about fifty rednecks before pickup trucks will end up. Bro Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best and slaughtering Muslims in the streets of America Erica at the worst and it's all informed by his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this is the kind of talk the brought the F._B._I.. To him I don't know tops now. They're dressed up. They got well. It looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms reforms in Iran doing what they want near there was a god. It was preaching Christianity to up there. He's been arrested. It's only Internet right now need to get homework. You think the federal you think the federal government is in volved. Evolved in that or you just think earlier it should be no shock at this point to tell you that Keebler is also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him and HE HATES BARACK. Obama thinks he's a part of some deep state plot turn America until the Muslim only nation but his the agreement that they put him in the president is that he would make way for more Muslims to be again in the United States. This was actually come out recently. I wanted to news some reporters. Here is made president of more Muslims. Yes he arranged to be able to like Soros is financing. A lot of a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia going on right now. They can kill a child hours after it's been born they keep it alive long enough. The organs to develop didn't kill the kid and hardship for parts at this point in our interview Keillor's looking at Ryan than I like. We're crazy like how do we not know any of this. I can't believe I don't know none of this and we're looking at Keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe this stuff at this point in our conversation. It was hard to know how to continue talking to Keebler. I feel like I understand how far down a conspiratorial rabbit hole. You have to be nor to detonate a bomb that helps me understand Glenn Jones to but at the same time Keebler is a big and that bigotry has clouded his entire perspective on the world keebler his whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias anti-government groups this is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with with author Jesse Walker to help a guy like keebler context Walker wrote a book called the United States of paranoia. I wanted to understand the rule that conspiracies have played militia groups throughout history. You know in the Cold War era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the John Birch society sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties from you know fears where all the the enemy is based in Moscow to fears where the enemy is based in New York and <hes> manipulating Moscow in the ninety s after the Cold War ended events like Ruby Ridge Waco happened conspiracy shifted again but in the nineteen nineties you lose the context of the Cold War in so it's much easier easier. Just SORTA see Washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the Internet and while I'm not someone who's <unk> who argues that the Internet made people more paranoid made people more conspirists. I I do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who had previously been much more <hes> separate from one another. You know Keebler fits this description description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for target for their anger he was in the army fighting communism. When the Cold War ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called Patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and Muslims and women and abortion doctors the bill and George Soros Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama the deep state? He lives in an acid bath conspiracy theories so ask Keebler. Where's all this going in his mind? During the Obama Administration if he declared martial law rallied me rarely around me to Lesser Central Command Post and we'll go from there we start operations at that point that would have been should hit the fan so what's the difference now. What's what's I think trump up declares martial law it would be more controlled manner? He's not come after Patriots Not Malaysian no now she there you go pushing racist. I asked you know they got an able. Keep got angry when I asked him. If this entire world shaded conspiracies government cabals it's really just avail Vail for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about Sharia law and evasions at the border how Muslims are a plague in Christian nation like America. He tells me I'm off base to ask if this all really comes down bigotry built his world around these extremist ideas. He's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when Ryan Awesome at different question. What do you think happens if the Democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges abroad? What do you think happens with the Patriots over? I'll bet off just what I'm here in seeing on the Internet all bets are off. Was I'll bet you off. You're bill keebler. A guy who tried to blow up government. Building who lives on a steady stream of hate from the Internet says that he's had enough. If anything were to ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks should be time to take up arms again. People are wanting retaliation. They want revenge. They won't pay back for a lot of things this abortion crap what had milivoy what is happening to our children what has happened to our streets was that Mirage schools people want retribution for that. They want what Shit Stop. I still don't know what to make Keebler. I'm not sure he can really tell us anything about Glen Jones but if you look at Keebler on what changed before and after the Bunkerville and Malheur standoffs the biggest differences that afterward the F._B._i.. Turned his world upside down pushed him toward toward violence. It's not illegal to believe racist things. Our country is built on the idea that you have the right to complain about the government so it's not really clear to me if the F._B._I.'s own conspiring to get Keebler help take dangerous guy off the streets for a few years or made a blowhard into a radical who could snap of the political winds change but what I do think keebler case makes clear as somebody who can be influenced into taking action keillor's. There's paranoia and belief in nearly every conspiracy he comes across seems to open this crack in his worldview that seemingly anyone can exploit. He's an attack dog waiting for a command. It happened with the F._B._i.. When he pushed the button and it happened was a little voice finicky him when he plotted Trapiel agents in a memo included with his court records? The government wrote that after keebler pushed the button on their bomb he told the agents this isn't about Lavoix. It's what he stood for. Four so keebler in Glen Jones make at least two people in a two month timeframe invoking finnigan's name as they carried out a violent action which got me wondering about how many more people influenced by what finicky supposedly stood four and if those people really knew what he stood for or if they had just as keebler might say read on the Internet Phantom seems to have this outsized influence on the Patriot movement because he died so why does some desk fade away and others become Cadillac for violence. That's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Liam <unk> Peter Frick right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin in fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda especial thanks to David study for his feedback on this series and to Denny's restaurants for letting US interview Bill Keebler there for three hours even if you're all all secret F._B._I.. Agents Bonneville is a co-production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please visit their websites long rates dot com or opie dot org.

Finnigan Keebler keebler Keebler Jones Bill Keebler Keebler Group Keebler Patriots Oregon keillor United States Brad Miller cliven Bundy Arizona Ryan Obama Bundy Ville Utah Bunkerville Bonneville
Episode 4: The Homeland

Bundyville: The Remnant

22:35 min | 1 year ago

Episode 4: The Homeland

"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bonneville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day help you with whatever you wanNA create plans start just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates just a really quick warning before we start this episode contains mild wild swearing and descriptions of racist violence and ideologies that maybe upsetting to some listeners keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen every fourth the July weekend religious community way up North Eastern Washington Wilson event called the God in country celebration people girl hamburgers and hotdogs kids put on a play about America it could be a scene from a lot of small conservative towns. The kids do a choreographed flag-waving routine. The boys were red white and blue t shirts tucked into their genes. They sing song for Les Miserables About Liberty in standing up for themselves but this isn't just a celebration of independence got in country is a gathering where people go each year to hear speakers from the Patriot the movement in twenty teen the featured guest at the festival was Ginette Vinnicombe Lavoix Finnigan's widow. I want you to think Berry Pastor Berry A- and bird for hosting me year for hosting this premiere of boy talking long before Ginette Finchem showed the movie about her husband and Oregon she was here to show it in Stevens County me Washington. It's this far flung county way closer to Canada in Idaho then Seattle. It's long been a haven for people who've been trying to hide from the federal government. You're all family. This festival was actually close to the media. The Garden Country Celebration is a notoriously secretive event but someone gave me recordings of the speeches from that day and it struck me how different Ginette Finnigan's words were here compared to when we saw her back in Salem on the V._F._W.. She still talked about government overreach and the conspiracy to kill her husband but she took it further. This time are using labels and the force of government unless you aw she kept using that word lynching. She never used it when I saw her in Salem but here she flipped the word on its head she said the people the Patriot movement mostly white people were the victims that they were being lynched. You're standing and standing with avoid label in in the Lynch mob by her estimation is the media inflicting punishment upon God fearing freedom lovers. It's interesting to me that Ginette say words like this about the so-called oppression of Christian patriots for this place she'd come to one of the whitest parts of the country with a message that white people are the victims of oppression so Lujan is here are you can get a fair trial in our curve federal courts but the reality that somebody like boy was just a rancher never had a speeding ticket or criminal record of anytime we domestic extremists terrorists and they murdered by those controlling our government when I went to Panetta I saw bombing that seemed like a began as a response to the death of avoid finicky him and then I talked to Bill Keebler. You're a guy who says he was targeted by the F._B._i.. Payback for his role in the bunkerville standoff at Bundy ranch for decades. The Patriot movement in the federal government have been locked in this back and forth. We're violence begets. It's violence and both sides try to control the narrative to justify their actions. The feds rewrote keebler story to suit their purposes pushing him until he was as violent as they needed him to be the Patriot movement. Meanwhile has rewritten Lavoie Finnigan saying that he was killed while trying to peacefully protest even though lavoix seemed to be the one searching for a fight and now Ginette has brought that message to Stevens County Washington part of a region that. For the past thirty years has produced white supremacists burn crosses bomb buildings and murdered people then they've justified it with a mix of religion and conspiracy theories so if you wanNA understand the ideology behind the Patriot movement who's being recruited what comes next you have to understand. This part of Stevens County from long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah silly before we get into the story of Stevens County. I WanNa address something that would probably come as a surprise to people listening who aren't familiar with the inland northwest. You might think the North Western U._S.. Is All rain showers and mountains nirvana records coffee shops in weeds stores on every corner right but this part of the northwest. I'm about to tell you about eastern Washington North Idaho it actually it couldn't be less in line with that. Image Deeply Conservative area the West tot and dry in the summer coldest hell in the winner in the past few years. Some people have started to call this region. The American readout a readout is a kind of military fortification and they've been encouraging libertarians improper from around the country to make a home here. They're even read out realtors. We'll sell you a house complete with a bomb shelter so so this episode is about Stevens County but it's also about this region as a whole and you can't talk about the violent history of Stevens County without first understanding the Aryan nations the area nations was a Neo Nazi group with a compound North Idaho but in the summer of Nineteen Ninety eight simple wrong turn by family coming home from a wedding led to its downfall Victoria Keenan and her son. We're looking for a loss wallet when and they turned down a back road for reasons that have never really been explained members of the area nations chased the Keenan's for miles ran them off the road and held the family hostage at gunpoint the KEENAN's would go on to sue the Neo Nazi group group for millions of dollars bankrupting them and then they proceeded to buy the group's compound when it went up for auction. Those buildings were eventually bulldozed effectively destroying the central gathering place for the region's white supremacists forcing forcing them to find new homes new places to meet up so they spread out to nearby communities like Stevens County but before that happened the compound had been beacon to white supremacists and hate groups for decades a reason into gather in this part of the country so probably my first encounter with this was in the early eighties about nineteen eighty or eighty one for more than three decades journalists. Bill Moreland has been documenting steady stream of violence coming out of this area Dan. There's no reporter out there. I no longer track record of covering the white supremacist anti-government movements in the West we had across burning at the nation's in North Idaho and I had been on the staff of the Spokane Daily Chronicle at that point for about a decade and <hes> cross burnings in the northwest and in North Idaho in particular were not an everyday occurrence in the eighties much like today people debated whether covering white supremacists amounted into advertising their ideas was part of the community that some of the areas white residents felt go away if they ignored it. Even as people who weren't white were being terrorized. Moreland says a columnist at the other paper in town thought they shouldn't even be talking about cross burnings. He was of the School of thought that if you ignore them they'll go away by writing about them. All you're doing is giving them publicity and I have never to this day signed onto that belief system and by the way neither do major civil rights organizations reservations according to those groups shining light on the problem is more effective than ignoring it and more Orleans says readers of the paper wanted to know who was burning crosses in their backyard so moreland has photographer are on their way to the cross burning thinking they'll find some nearby hill and shoot photos from there there wasn't a good hill and then they ran into a fence blocking their way so they decided to just drive up to the front gate of the Aryan nations and <hes> so we got there <hes> <hes> it was darkness had sit in and it was July summer evening we were greeted by at least two. Maybe three armed guards one of whom pointed his <hes> his rifle in into the window at my head instead who are you. What are you doing here and demanded identification? I told him out as a reporter for the spokane paper and he said you're not welcome here. Get outta here and I said okay put you down man. I'm not GonNa Challenge and so we turned around Lou and left what moreland would go on to learn is that a guy named Richard Butler founder of the area nations and the most prominent white supremacists in America had chosen this corner of the country to set up shop Butler form the Church Richer Jesus Christ Christian which is Christian identity <hes> religious group and he referred to the area nations as the churches political on people who believe in Christian identity are white supremacists. It's a religion that believes. The people of Color don't have souls the Jews or the spawn of Eve and Satan that the tribes of Israel or white people and his butlers church became more entrenched Moreland kept reporting on it attending cross burnings and ceremonies unease or the K._k._k.. Blessed knives and guns and he started seeing more Christian identity churches popping up one in sandpoint idaho tune Stevens County Washington but the real turning point of violence in the northwest Moreland says says is when a group called the order formed as an offshoot of the area nations and so in one thousand nine hundred three secretly the order is formed in in North Wash on North Eastern Washington unbeknownst to me and everyone else and then but by nineteen eighty-four specifically late in Nineteen eighty-four <hes> basically all hell breaks loose. The order was a group of guys who wanted to start a race war based on a novel called the Turner Diaries. That's the same book that Timothy McVeigh US to justify his bombing on the Murrah building in Oklahoma City about a decade later. It didn't take long for the order to start killing people moreland says litany of violence began in Nineteen eighty-four with the murder of Jewish radio host in Denver a following that there were a robberies of a <hes> adult bookstore in Spokane bombing of a synagogue in Boise <hes> the <hes> robbery of an armored car <hes> up in Seattle in Seattle area <hes> the printing of counterfeit money on the presses of the area nations and in probably the home what are the hallmark crimes was the robbery of armored Carney California that knitted something on the order of Ah you know four to five million dollars in cold cash in the money bags and all these crimes were meant to inspire and bankroll a white revolution. It's easy to look back now and see how they were connected but at the time the F._B._i.. Had trouble figuring out who is committing all of them and this is in an era before the term harassment anything to anybody I mean it's like domestic terrorism. What's that people didn't understand what was going on and so while law enforcement forcement was trying to figure out who they were dealing with Christian identity took root in this remote part of the country then in Nineteen ninety-two a guy named Randy Weaver who had been known taking out of the Aryan nations compound failed failed to show up in court after selling illegal weapons to an A._T._f.? Informant and Moreland reported the story the U._S. Marshals Confronted Weaver and the infamous Ruby Ridge standoff began this was two hours from Stevens County and and militias and other anti-government group's flocked to the remote mountain where the Weaver family lived Ruby Ridge really was a you know a lightning stick if you will <hes> that had occurred and a lot of people after Ruby Ridge came together instead we're never again get federal agents come into our county and you know encircle a cabin. After Ruby Ridge Morlin continued to report on anti-government movement in this entire region and often his reporting brought him to Stevens County Washington go western Stevens County is very rural and sparsely populated just over forty four thousand people live there and it's bigger than some states back east. I asked Moreland to compile what he knew about violence. There came to our meeting with a very very long list. Well Okay you want me walk through this whole list. Is that the that's what three pages is that stuff that's happened tide is even county shit. I walked quickly Sherry so Stevens Morland said that in some some cases Stevens County residents were targeted just because they had Jewish sounding last names the violence was indiscriminate but a couple of prominent cases linked to a place called the ARC. The ARK was a Christian identity church and Stevens County Johny up near the Canadian border so even after the Aryan nations was torn down people could still go to the ARC Morlin told me about a serial killer named Israel Keyes <hes> turns out that he was basically raised in Stevens County me and that he attended the ARC description unity church up there with his parents and the ARC is important because the doctrine of white supremacy preach their lead to more serious violence like the Ki-ho brothers who also attended the Ark and in July live nineteen ninety eight Chevy ki-ho his father Kirby Ki-ho were charging an indictment listing fifty seven separate crimes including five murders Chevy Ki-ho and Daniel Louis Lee were accused of conspiring to build a whites-only area in People's Republic beginning in nineteen ninety-three so they're embar embarking on a whites-only kind of a concept much like the order had done back in the mid eighties <hes> Chevy Ki-ho and Danny Lee was a skinhead were also accused of planning pipe bomb. It was detonated at the entrances for Kansas City. Hall Marlins List is wildly violent and took about twenty minutes to get through so I won't tell you about every murdering Aaron threat but the point is it was all sort of a domino effect of violence that started at the Aryan nations it stretched back decades and continues today. This is a tiny population of people that produces way more than its share of. Violent extremists. It's a history that the people who live in Stevens County can't seem to get away from it's a history that they're always trying to escape John. Smith is the former seventh district senator from Washington State and before he moved to Stevens County he lived with his grandparents in Idaho and other members of the area nations the order and and you know they're chancellery groups came through our house a lot when I was when I was a kid. Smith's grandfather was close with people in the area nations picture a rotating cast of Nazis at your dining room table that was Smith's childhood and he says that what Butler in the area nations ultimately wanted was a white homeland tells the story of when he was a kid and a bunch of guys where at his grandfather's house they were all around the kitchen table with maps laid out and they were strategizing and they are literally literally talking about a violent takeover of several counties in in Idaho. They're talking about how <hes> boy when they get in power <hes> not only are the Jewish bankers going to be hanging from the light poles but all of those blacks who dare look at a woman and then all of those all of those judeo-christian pastors who said it was all okay you know they're going to be right there beside him because they're going to implement righteousness so many of the hateful movements that have started in this part of the country ultimately come back to that idea of whites only haven Smith says he thought leaving home would get him away from racism so he moved to Stevens County Washington with the ideas he was trying to escape had gotten there. I I had viewed northeast Washington is kind of a refuge from what was going on in Boise and when I finally came here I was confronted by some folks who were essentially traveled in the same circles oils is my grandfather and I want to be clear white supremacists in Stevens county where minority even at the peak of their influence but the county is just so big an empty. It's easy to stay off the radar. We'll just like there. There are thousands ends of wonderful people who live here that would never embrace the stuff that we're talking about. It's also the kind of environment where if you WANNA move somewhere and do something where you don't want prying eyes. There's an opportunity for that so so it's space. I think there's there's means opportunity here. Those means an opportunity have long been appalled for radicals trying to make a whites-only homeland built on so-called Christian values and those ideas persist today wherever we come as a country when loving the constitution being a Patriot loving Jesus is extremist match. Shea is a Washington state representative out of Spokane Valley which isn't even in Stevens Wins County because there regularly to talk about creating new state. He calls liberty again. It's already happening in fact I wanNA talk about what has come to be known as the American readout but it's actually not a new idea. It's actually really old idea and this is a map from eighteen sixty and it shows Washington in Idaho essentially connected match as big idea is to sever off eastern Washington from the more liberal western Washington and create a state that embodies his style of Christian values a place shaped by ideology and ruled by Biblical Law. It's an idea that bears striking resemblance to what Richard Butler tried to create with the area nations. Here's Bill Moreland again. Richard Butler wanted awaits only homeland in the northwest which isn't that much different than fifty for state because the fifty first State that Matt Shays talking about is essentially would the demographics of it would be mostly white you but Richard Butler also talked about what he called Mongrel hordes invading the United States across the U._S. Mexican border and now we have a president who talks about rapists murderers. We're invading the United States from across the border so oh well what I heard Richard Butler talk about an spouse and preach about forty seven years ago I'm now hearing from the White House and maybe you're thinking politician say a lot of things and make lots of promises and most of it never happens especially when it's being proposed by a low level conservative lawmaker in a state controlled by Democrats and you'd be right except that match isn't thinking about this in terms of the democratic process. He has a battle plan to force the idea. It's called the biblical basis for war. That's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Leah's Tilly Peter Frick Right and Ryan has all the music in the series was written in performed by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Nick Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research Help from Kim Freda thank you to David Study for his keen ears and thank you to Bill Morlin and all the staff at the Spokane spokesman review for all the work they've done for decades. Reporting on hate groups in the northwest Bundy Ville is a co-production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make the show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation for becoming.

Stevens County Bill Moreland Stevens County Washington Richard Butler Ginette Vinnicombe Lavoix Finn Idaho Oregon spokane Washington North Idaho Ginette Leah America Seattle Randy Weaver Washington North Idaho Canada Boise Bonneville Bundy Ville
Target USA -- Episode 139: Special report preview -- The US-Russia enigma

Target USA Podcast by WTOP

26:47 min | 2 years ago

Target USA -- Episode 139: Special report preview -- The US-Russia enigma

"Uh-huh. From podcast one coming up in this episode of target USA. This is a special preview program designed to set the stage for a series of episodes that will focus on the US Russia in 'nigma, but more specifically the life and death struggle that many are going through behind the scenes as an epic battle between the US and Russia plays out coming up on this edition of target USA national security broadcast target USA is brought to you by Northrop Grumman. In today's battlespace situations change rapidly by twine. Northrop Grumman's, innovative, c. four ISR technology offers unprecedented mission capability. That's the value of performance Northrop from from WTO in Washington DC. This is target USA. Russia could render huge harm to this country. North Korea's secret missile capable of reaching the whole of the United States dangerous terraced DC is repeatedly mentioned someplace they would like to see an attack cyber criminal successful. America as a target on its back. And on this program, we investigate the threats. The people behind them, the agencies fighting them and the impact on you. This is target USA be national security podcast. I'm Jay, Jay green for three years and seven months. Target USA has been following the US intelligence communities quest to defend the nation against a quiet, pernicious threat that many simply did not see the Russian government and in March twenty. Sixteen the US intelligence community was fixated on terrorism the Kremlin nuit and used the opportunity to put the finishing touches on an operation that would turn the nation upside down. We're still upside down. There is a special. This is a special preview program designed to set the stage for a series of episodes that will be the culmination of more than a year and a half of research and preparation. The series will focus on the US Russia in 'nigma and the life and death struggle underway in the shadows. A number of. Outspoken voices of face that struggle. Some have one and some have lost their struggled. But each day, the struggle rose more and more critical. We start off with a look back at oppression warning from episode one March twenty. Sixteen. Almost every morning here in Washington. The director of national intelligence goes to the White House to brief the president about the threats and the challenges the US is facing. It's called the president's daily briefing and Clapper gave us a look at his office at how he gets prepared to do that. Get up. But for thirty. And start right away, reading the news clips and that sort of thing getting the car. Protected detail brings me in and I start reading the ipad. We have president's daily brief and Clapper who's been gathering intelligence for more than a half-century says, what he's seeing now is not good. Fifty plus years don't know time. We've been beset by a more diverse array of challenges and crises around the world. Sometimes it almost makes you long for the house in days of the Cold War and a single all consuming adversaries, so union which we came to understand pretty well, and which was fairly predictable and all other threats were subsumed in that one major threat. Now, it's very, very diverse, very fragmented. And you have this Ray of nation state challenges in the form of Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and non nation, state entities. You know the whole range of terrorist groups, ISIS Okada at sever us ISIS is. Of unique in that it has taken on the cooler moments or characteristics or traits of nation state, but it really isn't a nation state there upsides and depending on your point of view, upsides and downsides that. But what that does give us, I believe are vulnerabilities that we can export. And while you has been looking for vulnerabilities to exploit so warrants adversaries, and in some cases, the US's unwillingly and unwittingly helped them out. It was may of twenty thirteen Snowden. I'm twenty nine years old. I worked for Booz Allen Hamilton as an infrastructure analyst for NSA. He turned the US intelligence community upside down when he leaked thousands of classified documents to the press. It unleashed a firestorm of criticism against the US government for overreach fence than the US has sought to be more open about its intelligence practices, which is good from the standpoint of within our own country promoting transparency, and we've done a lot to be more transparent to explain to the American people in their representatives what we do. We do it and most importantly, how is over sighted, but that is a double edged sword. The downside of course, is when we expose what we do well, others capitalism, and that's what's happened to us particularly west to three years. One US intelligence source says the league's have created virtual university every US adversary anywhere has studied those leaks, but perhaps no. Oh, adversary more than Russia because after all, that's where Edward Snowden ended up and Clamper warned while we were focused on ISIS, perhaps we should have been looking at something bigger Faisal is not a mortal enemy of the United States. It can't inflict mortal damage to States, Russia. Cam Clapper is clear. He has no reason to believe. Russia is planning something, but Russia has embarked on a very impressive campaign to modernize of their military in all its dimensions that that that is a bother. That's a worry something we need to be concerned with, and there aren't legitimate reasons for that concern. Russia has huge capabilities which if they chose to unleash could render huge arm to this country and kill a lot of Americans. Here's something else to consider in addition to the fact that Russia has more. Than fifteen hundred active nuclear warheads. He wasn't telling sources have noticed a significant increase in the number of Russian spies on US soil, some in non traditional places. The same is true of some other countries. So there is a buildup underway, especially here in Washington, but it's not clear what they're up to, and that's what bothers Clapper most the unknown on what we don't know anything about what what is clear is the US is the target. It was here on Capitol Hill inside a crowded hearing room that Clapper told the Senate Armed Services committee Russia's beginning to act a lot like the old USSR. The Russians fundamentally are paranoid about about NATO, they're greatly concerned about being contained and of course very, very concerned about missile defense which would serve to neuter. What is there the essence of their claim to great power status, which is their their nuclear arsenal. Paranoia that Clapper referred to appears to be the underpinning of Russian President. Vladimir Putin's increasingly confrontational plaster with the US outdoor. It was highlighted in a speech in March of twenty fourteen where he said the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the twentieth century. Clamper essentially told the congress. The handwriting for him appears to be on the wall. A lot of these aggressive things that Russians are doing for a number reasons, break power status to create the image of being Coequal with United States, cetera. I think could probably put possibly go on and we could be into another Cold War like spiral here. One of the hallmarks of the Cold War was puppet governments setup by the Soviet Union. That doesn't appear to be the case this time, at least not yet, but there is evidence they may be headed in that direction. Out of the growing crisis in Ukraine, Russia sent more troops tanks and military vehicles into eastern Ukraine today to support pro, what is Russia up to and what should the US expect from it? Retired general, Mike Flynn. That's right. The same, Mike Flynn, the now former national security advisor who's facing prison time after pleading guilty. Ironically, because of the special counsel's probe into Russian interference. He said to us in twenty fifteen before any of this came up on the radar. Russia was of significant. Interest. If you look even at the two thousand eight timeframe on the attack into up Cossio in Osaka in the state of Georgia, those those Russian forces are still there in those two places. Even though there was a discussion afterwards, the pull out to ask them to pull out. They're still there. So we shouldn't expect Russia to pull out of where they're at right now in the Ukraine. Not only is Russia making waves out of the open, but it's very active undercover Randy Coleman, assistant director of counterintelligence at the FBI we talk about amongst the US intelligence communities as symmetric threat, right? It's not your typical intelligence officers that are that are here under diplomatic cover, you know, the normal. What somebody thinks of as a spy, what we're seeing is researchers in business men and women students that are coming to the United States that are actually collecting information and taking it back overseas with them. What we're doing on this program is setting the table for a special series of podcasts that will eliminate one of the most threatening elements of the US Russia relationship. What the Kremlin is willing to do to get revenge for losing the Cold War and its agents. Thence, when we come back on target USA national security podcast, target USA is brought to you by Northrop Grumman Northrop Romans innovative. See for ISR technology offers unprecedented mission capability, enabling faster, more assured decisions. That's the value of performance Northrop Grumman. I'm Jay, Jay green, and this is target USA. The nationals carry cast. This is a special preview program designed to set the stage for a series of episodes that will focus on the US Russia in 'nigma and the life and death struggle underway in the shadows a little more than a year ago. We presented the results of a year long look at how Russia manage to infiltrate the US political system. And according to the US intelligence community interfere with a twenty sixteen presidential election, it was the first public victory. The Kremlin had been able to claim in seventy years of trying to subvert US democracy with its disinformation and active measures campaigns, and we learned some key information about wear the Kremlin was headed episode eighty three, September twenty seventeen. At about eight thirty AM on September eleventh twenty fourteen the office of homeland security and emergency preparedness in Saint Mary parish. Louisiana began getting phone calls from concerned citizens about a disturbing message they received. Well, we started getting phone calls in regards to a message that came out is this. Is this talks fumes as. Warning. In this area and it gives the time one thirty pm do Val Arthur junior is director of the office of homeland security and emergency preparedness. And he was on duty at the time and recalls the message that came in take shelter local media, and then it has the name of company won't be chemical company. Alerts CO l. u. m. b. a. chemical dot com. That's the the name that was only alert. Where did you get the message that alert come from or didn't come to us that we, we started getting it from residents that live in the an area of the parish that it's not too far away from the plant. So they they saw this online or on the phones or on their phones. These were text messages and it was sent from a telephone number which gave me six, four. Six, five, eight, six, five, nine, six zero. That was the telephone number of the text. And it went out to several people. We had phone calls from people while we were making phone calls, we really didn't get a chance to get everybody name. We do have the name of a couple of people that that we're able to get the screen shots from and they call in complaints. What did they say? You said that which should they do is this legitimate? By that time, the internet was blowing up with details about the alert on Twitter. A screen shot was circulated of the Norrland's times picayune website, which depicted an article about the explosion. At one point, an image of CNN's website turned up on Twitter with the photograph of the explosion, a wicket. Your user created a page, describing the explosion, a public Facebook page, title, Louisiana news. Posted an article describing the event, even video appeared on YouTube that appeared to be news footage of ISIS, claiming responsibility for the attack. All of this was taking place while near near-panic started to set in in Saint Mary parish and all up and down the east coast of the US. And while it was happening Duval Arthur got on the phone and he called Columbia chemicals to ask what was going on, and they sent him a statement covered. Eleven two thousand fourteen says. We have been informed on the community that a text message has been received by several individuals indicating a release of toxic gas from Birla. It's beyond our l. a. Merlo carbons Columbian chemicals in this Colombians that Columbia. Okay. Colombey Colombian, Kim. Chemicals plant near Centerville, Louisiana. The content as stated by the techs is not true. There's been no release of such toxic gas explosion or any of the incident in opposition. We're not aware of the origin of the text message, long for authorities have been contacted and her following up on this matter. And that is when the real panic began to set in the realization that all of it had been a hulks of epic proportions. The spoofed websites, the faked screen shots of CNN and other newspapers and broadcasters. Even the video, showing a man watching TV, all of it was elaborately staged executed. Then the question was, who did it? We asked do Val Arthur that question. So when did you find out what was behind the hoax? Who was behind the host? I've never found out who is it. I was told that it was the Russians, but I have, no, I have no information on that. None whatsoever. Did you see the story that Adrian Chen wrote in the New York Times where you were quoted. I heard about it. I never saw it, but sure you that. I don't know that the Russians or anybody else did this. Okay. I say we spoke to the FBI in Louisiana about it as well. We were told they get back to us so far. We haven't heard anything yet. As we dug further into the story, we learned that wasn't the only Russian attempt to manipulate the news in the US in late two thousand fourteen throughout two thousand fifteen. We watched active measures on nearly any disaffected US audience, whether be claims of the US military declaring martial law during the Jade helm, exercise castle -mongst black lives matters protests or standoff at the bunny. Bundy ranch Russia's state-sponsored outlets team Sputnik news characterizes white outlets, churned out, manipulated truce, false news stories and conspiracies Clint wants a former FBI special agent currently, a fellow at the center for cyber and homeland security. At the George Washington University. He told the Senate intelligence committee on March. Thirtieth twenty seventeen Russia was very much involved in manipulating the news for their own special purposes. And he talked specifically about how they did it a generally lined up under four. Themes. One political messages designed to tarnish democratic leaders and institutions to financial propaganda created the week and confidence and financial markets and capitalist economies, three social unrest crafted amplify divisions amongst democratic populaces and for global calamity pushed incite fear of global demise such as nuclear war or catastrophic climate change. So what's play here is very sophisticated coordinated operation to attack the US from inside out in plain sight without us knowing what was happening wants toll the Senate, how it unfolded from his vantage point from these overt, Russian propaganda outlets wide range of English-speaking conspiratorial websites, which we referred to as grey Al. It's some of which mysteriously operate from eastern Europe. And are curiously led by pro Russian editors of unknown financing, sensationalize conspiracies, and fake news published by white outlets American looking social media accounts, the hecklers honeypots hackers I. Describe earlier working alongside automated bots. Further amplify this Russian propaganda amongst unwitting, westerners, and earlier in twenty eighteen we learned it wasn't just an attack from internet trolls and social media hecklers that the US was facing Nora talent, but there was a physical operation underway designed to send a message to anyone working against the will of the Kremlin on March fourth twenty eighteen thirty gay scrawl a former military officer and double agent for the UK's intelligence service and his daughter Yulia scrape hall were poisoned in Salisbury England a few days later, Prime Minister Theresa may addressed parliament. It is now clear that mister script and his daughter were poisoned with a military grade nerve agent of type developed by Russia. This is part of a group of nerve agents known as Novi chalk based on the positive identification of this chemical agent by world leading experts at the defense science and technology. Bora tree at Porton down on Russia has previously produced this agent and would still be capable of doing so Russia's record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations and our assessment that Russia views some defectors as legitimate targets for nations. The government has concluded that it is highly likely that Russia was responsible for the actor Sergei and Julia, how Mr Speaker there for only two pools explanations for what happened in schools break on the fourth of March, either. This was a direct by the Russian state against our country. All the. Russian government, lost control of its potentially catastrophically damaging agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others this afternoon. My right honourable friend, the foreign secretary has summoned the Russian ambassador to the foreign Commonwealth office. Allston asked him to explain which of these two possibilities it is and therefore to account for how this Russian produced nerve agent could have been deployed in Salisbury against Mr. scrip on his daughter. My -able friend who stated embassador that the Russian federation must immediately provide full and complete disclosure of Nafi chalk program to the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons, and he has requested the Russian government's response by the end of tomorrow. Mr Speaker, this action has happened against it, backdrop of a well established pattern of Russian state aggression. Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea was the first time since the second. World War that one sovereign nation has forcibly taken territory from another in Europe. Russia has amended conflict in the dome. Dombass repeatedly violated the national s base of several European countries and mounted a sustained campaign of cyber espionage and disruption. This is included meddling elections and hacking the Danish ministry of defense and the Bundestag among many others. During his recent state of the union address President Putin showed video graphics of missile launches flights trajectories and explosions, including the modeling of attacks on the United States with a series of warheads impacting in Florida while the extrajudicial killing of terrorism dissidents outside Russia will give legal sanction by the Russian parliament in two thousand six. And of course, Russia used radiological substances in its barrack assault on Mr. Levin Yanko. We saw promises to assist the. Instigation then, but they resulted in denial and office Gatien and the stifling of June process. And the rule of law. Mr Speaker, following Mr. Levin coz death, we expelled Russian diplomats, suspended security, cooperation broke off by natural plans on visas froze the sets of the suspects and put them on international extradition. This and these measures remain in place. Furthermore, commitment to collective defense and security through NATO remains as strong as in the face of Russian behavior. Indeed, armed forces have a leading role in NATO's in haunts forward presence with British troops, leading multinational, battle group in Estonia. We have led the way in securing tough sanctions against Russian economy, and we have at all stages worked closely with our allies, and we will continue to do so since then numerous investigations into the suspicious deaths of Russians and others have been open. So m- that we're long dormant are getting a second look. A part of the reason is something that Clint ones. Told the Senate intelligence committee during its probe of Russian interference on March. Thirtieth 2017 spend more dead Russians in the past three months. They're tied to this investigation who have assets in banks all over the world. They are dropping dead even in western countries. We've seen arrest in believe it, Spain and different computer security companies that are based in Russia, which provide services to the United States. These are all huge openings to understand how they are funded by the Russian government, and that's where we begin our special series of podcast, a look into the trail of dead Russians and others at the hands of the Kremlin join us for our series coming up with our next episode. I wanna take a moment to say a special. Thank you over the years. We've accumulated a lot of listeners a lot of followers to each of you. I'm deeply grateful if you have any questions. Comments or thoughts. Email me at j. green at WTO p dot com. That's j. green at whiskey, Tango, Oscar, Papa dot com. J. green at WTO p dot com and follow us on Twitter at t- USA podcast. I'm Jay, Jay green and this target USA national security. Broadcast target USA is brought to you by Northrop Grumman in today's battlespace situations change rapidly. That's why Northrop crumbs innovative, c. four aren't technology offers unprecedented mission capability. That's the value of performance north from it. Now stay tuned for the latest headlines from the Associated Press.

United States Russia Russia Russian government Louisiana Cam Clapper Northrop Grumman Washington DC Jay green Northrop WTO Senate intelligence committee President Putin nigma NATO North Korea Twitter Senate Armed Services committe CNN
2123 - Shadowlands: Fear and Freedom at the Oregon Standoff w/ Anthony McCann

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

1:25:07 hr | 2 years ago

2123 - Shadowlands: Fear and Freedom at the Oregon Standoff w/ Anthony McCann

"You are listening to a free version of the majority of portland sam cedar to support this show and get another fifty minutes daily program majority dot s m please i already rub it is monday july first two thousand nineteen my name is sam cedar this five time award winning majority report we are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravage ghana's canal in the heartland of america downtown brooklyn usa on the program today anthony mccain mccann author western tale of america in crisis shadow land fear in freedom at the oregon standoff don also on the program today trump will may shut off for eight north korean nuclear freeze vs drawdown meanwhile the country we had convinced do a draw down has now broken the stockpile limits set by being now destroyed iran deal federal judge forces the trump administration to allow doctors to inspect their migrate concentration camps in new reports suggested suggested the dhs was warning of riots two months ago things were so bad meanwhile in the wake of be first and second first debates joe biden drops because of his debate performance andy everything else he says meanwhile fundraising numbers in buddha judge raises twenty four four million in q to hong kong protesters storm parliament on the anniversary its return to china and the latest on a lot of jato key witness changed his story multiple times to implicate lula harvard says f you to a generation of kids in flint michigan names rick snyder there as fellow to be fair they just started their new criminal pollution of the environment program so go hand lasley george soros teamed up with the coke brothers do what do we call those episodes crossovers did do a crossover episode in funding in antiwar things came suggestions beat the flintstone yeah i got some good some good people involved with it so far yeah i don't know how i feel about that but all that and more on today's program ladies and gentlemen 'em you know you'd think like a george soros could step up and do it himself that's all i'm saying oh yeah i mean i think if anything the critique should be wire they're not more you know where's fire like why are there not more liberal plutocrats willing to oppose interventionism i doubt they have to you know do something like this but i know like as example a tree depar sees it's a big part of it he's been instrumental in iran that i've heard of it i mean we need these people to be funded and hop in working on this all i'm saying is if you're inclined to stop war which i don't think most billionaires necessarily sara lee are i would imagine a significant portion of them make their money in some fashion or another by a war conflict the the fallout from war conflict a etcetera etcetera if you're inclined to do that why why give the coke brothers some measure of of cover but 'em to each their own i know it's intolerant of me to suggest on how someone should pay their a may know that they used their billions of dollars for a young but that was actually you record it from i guess i just realize you could hear us laughing we could add that clean he was being very honest all right so a joe biden his polling numbers dropped five points in the wake of the poll according this cording to a morning console still delayed a but under be a cedar serum of the demise of joe biden postulated months ago that a by october early october maybe late september he would be third in the polls which may be subject to amending in terms of like fourth 'em what will we'll see now is that every point in which he drops in the polling begin to create more downward pressure then it would from most candidates because his biggest selling point is that he win everytime oddly allegedly in every time he drops in the polls it is evidence that maybe he can't win maybe he's just not that good campaigner maybe he's not aware where of who he's talking to or what his liabilities are end but hold your horses the debates not everything this guy's gonna get out there this weekend this past weekend and and try and change the minds showed that he's still sharp is attack here he is 'em this is out of chicago rally what day was this on saturday and he's trying to show the hey he's whip it he's hip man he knows the score on the street listen to him talking about how he understands v plight of black america reforming the criminal justice and make sure black mothers feel confident when they send her sean you're there sign out on the streets is you're gonna be safe forget it recognize recognize that kid wearing a hoodie may very well be the next poet laureate not a gang banger ladies and gentlemen there too many black men and i might add women in prison right now when he says we've got recognize that the guy in rudy may be a poet laureate and not a gang banger is he aware that most people recognize that that be a problem i mean he's obviously referring to trayvon martin right i mean that's where the whole concept of hoodies became a thing that the problem wave 'em zimmerman killing trayvon martin was that he was bigoted end presumed and there were a lot of people saying like you shouldn't be wearing a hoodie bubba the vast majority of americans is quite aware that they black kid in a hoodie is not necessarily a gang banger but i would also add that there's also something in between you don't have to be a poet laureate to be allowed to walk through a gated community you don't have to be a poet laureate do not have the cops roll up on you you could just be a dude you could just be like a guy who's gonna be i don't know a clerk at a store or a plumber or a doctor or a dancer or aisha or father father winter formulator waiter or a seller overseas for i mean you could be just about anything but even in i don't know he his his constructions little convoluted from that segment 'em but i don't know if the question is like we wanna curb violence but a or you shouldn't have to be afraid of the cops abusing you 'em i think that's the case regardless of what you are adamant i think like and i don't think that all the gang bangers are just gangbangers all the time like even if you are a gang banger you still have rights like the right not to be murdered walking down the street yeah that's the thing is i couldn't tell from its construction of using protect him from the cops protect him from violence sir whatever it is but the bottom line is is that joe biden thinks he's talking to aim nation of racist and he's the voice of reason sewn at this hey bondage understand you have these old concepts in your head that if then if he can't black kids wearing a hoodie that he's a gang banger meanwhile i just saw this great showcase of underprivileged kids out of laguardia and they were reading poetry that's the biden planet edition of body cameras before your kid gets drugs planted on him or of attack by some random freak housing development biden would have a special tactical team trained the check is inside the kid's backpack there's a poetry collection and then you could judge dodge the merits of how far that work will get and forgive me father i've seen i thought that maybe a black kid could be a poet laureate i'm sorry i'm sorry right this kid scribbling he's the type of stuff no poetry take them out if there's one a cops have respect for its poets yeah so let's hold off excused garcia fucking poetry slam is added to the country but the more this that that joe biden does this type of stuff he basically shows like look i'm sorry you're at a rally chicago you're clearly talking about 'em criminal justice reform because you know you have a liability here so you are this is you're eight game you're bringing out you're eight game and you're trying to convince people i'm not the guy that i'm being sadder a parody or satirize about i know this stuff and i know the just because you wear a hoodie doesn't mean you're a gang banger right who's with me i mean they never saw who is this day liability that when the chips are down when he's got the deliver on something he can't do it because he just has not a really opened his eyes i look i don't know why i don't know if it's because he's still the way he was thirty years ago or he's progressed but he just hasn't progressed out much or he doesn't realize where the rest of the country is or i don't know what it is but it doesn't matter it matters whether he could deliver on that moment that's part one so part one is joe biden just showed us in that earlier clip that he is a little bit rusty when it comes to trying to be vanguard for a racial justice in this country his his whole body does not make you hey gang banger as if it's a revelation everybody in chicago well here he is basically doing the same thing when it comes to the lgbtq community online who is gonna get around to them well he he is at m where was this one what is this clip from a human rights campaign a ceremony in september of two thousand eighteen okay but which he just said the other day though to he said it in seattle but we don't have the video that okay so in seattle he gave a quote 'em which went like this he said a this was just like what a day or two ago right he said you know if you come here in seattle he said the same five years ago when someone at a business meeting in seattle made fun of a gay waiter people would just let it go according to a pool report the audience vocally responded to their mark and some of the crowd said a non not no it's that you're in twenty fourteen if people had made gay comments in seattle seattle buddy well i'm pretty sure that most major cities in fact in the country if somebody had said that in fact i think probably all year major cities these if they had said it around a table someone would have said you know we really like the little anachronistic even five years ago but apparently he loves this anecdote and will not let it go he said this a year ago now remember the time line twenty fourteen in seattle they're doing a business guy doing gay jokes here we go you guys have done more free street women and men then you have gays and lesbians you don't misunderstand me think about this one one example a lot easier very successful businessmen and women if you were a fancy restaurant found in washington five six years ago and then important business meeting in gay or lesbian waiter came up or transgender spoke a little lisburn demonstrated they were gay or lesbian and someone at that launching tables said made fun of that person noone said anything on a joke i want you to literally think about today is that same thing happened you're there for five people table say you courses tail get out really well now now that weren't up now his point is well taken but for some reason he keeps changing the timeline in a very weird way because apparently in twenty fourteen he told this story and it was about any used at fifteen years ago for nineteen ninety nine so in twenty fourteen he thought that euro is over in twenty nineteen you think that you're still existed in twenty fifteen the point being is he's got these catchphrase is which suggest that he was in the vanguard of something and he doesn't realize that things have changed how dramatically things have changed exactly it's like he learned he learned to like pop you know like he could do that with like we used to you know do this thing with the break dancing and he could he learned a pop and he just assume like i could hang onto this for the rest of time be the guy on the dance floor who looks like he's really with it just give you an example about what was going on five years ago this was hey hidden camera abc's showed that they did in mississippi mississippi in a restaurant to see how people would react the gay people five years ago just give you a sense joe biden is extremely out of touch darien lake what did they do all of that are you know are you these guys have reached their lives and now they had objects bonders service is there a problem also an actor working for us in the game for their she keeps calling out as we go through but instead of kicking kicking tracy out our weight harassed sark couple to lean guy i just look look my manager gonna ask you to leave just because of people's religious beliefs we have to leave but i wanna go he's visibly shaken and upset meanwhile tracy just keeps pushing you understand why i say no no no no there's a reason why people like begins a new assassins anything else in the world i'm so is right now i know i see i'm not trying to make now i get out because there is no voice music you're talking me when i'm he was pretty bad you know that is first of all and obviously a typical example how intolerant the left is they have an exchange of ideas that i wanna get married well you may even have been on the left you could just be like i know i think i'm joking i don't know up by should be the point is joe biden every time he opens his mouth and tries to say something thing nice end helpful he's just out of touch he has lost sight of where america is in that is why in many respects a lot of people feel like his candidacy is so regressive 'em look joe biden very popular lgbtq community a because many people a give him a lot of credit for a marriage equality and some of that may be a warrant but the fact is is that if you're worried about joe biden's ability to get elected this should really bother you because again like he could tell this anecdote over and over again that's all well and good and that's fine and like i say i think that he he deserves some credit for marriage equality as much as anybody at least within the context of of the obama administration without a doubt but if he if this is where if this is his wheelhouse there's a problem yeah he's like the creepy white family and get out where they're trying to show their not racist and the dad like i would have voted for a third term for obama psychoactive yeah i it's not even that i think that he's nuts i think he has a problem more of a problem and race then he does frankly on lgbtq issues but the issue is is that he doesn't know where where the country's at an that is i think a big problem for him but we'll see we'll see if other people think it is 'cause i'm not the only one in charge of that apparently 'em hey it's reminder of support for today's show comes from from the new yorker the new yorker represents the best writing in america today you could enjoy the works of emily new spam she's the television critic for the new yorker who and twenty sixteen when the peel it surprise for criticism checkout doreen saint felix staff writer at the new yorker who covers the highs and lows of today's culture twenty nineteen she wants ellie award combs in commentary or john cassidy covers politics and economics for the new yorker all of it folks you know the new yorker it's the most prominent 'em periodical in the country kassy's written articles on topics ranging from intelligence failures before the iraqi war duty economics of john maynard keynes a right now you can head over a to new yorker dot com the story will hunter biden jeopardize his father's there's campaign john higgins loopers war on socialism democrats cautiously returned to the war on poverty risi and then in this stuff about d a the democratic primaries moving margins a lot of a political stuff trump's curious ron davis with kim jong hoon i i could only a and then 'em oregon sue nami risk so i did not know about their stories on turkey a the politics going on turkey right now 'em robert carrow in lbj matt just literally couldn't help himself the work of the of the crossword a you know new yorker every time we do in new york at actually i like it's i could have bragging rights would my folks find me think that what i'm doing is legitimate twelve weeks for just six bucks plus the new yorker tote bag weekly home delivery of the print edition and unlimited access to new yorker dot com we tend to fifteen exclusive site only 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asking check it out say andrew there's a lot of stuff obviously happening in the news that if not directly related to a this 'em in washington state certainly 'em i guess tangentially so a at least in terms of the spirit of what's going on but i wanna start waves are asking you about a a quote from your book 'em 'cause you did a tremendous amount of reporting you covered obviously the the sort of the things that led to the takeover in then v m the trial itself but there was one guy who as part of the bundy i guy named jason patrick who had sort of join this group 'em as eight m as sort of a a someone who i guess was suspicious not suspicious maybe or maybe suspicious but as a critique of sort of state power in the form of of police officers end at one point 'em patrick tried to make common cause with black live matter in one of the leaders of the local a don't shoot 'em organizations a treasure ray furred i guess i don't you're portland yeah terrific terrific she's actually running for mayor of portland right now oh is that right well she there had she had said his ideas are who he thinks he is well you just talk about that and then let's go into the story 'cause i'm just curious just like we explain to people what that means a big glad you think that's one of my at the fermi that's a real touchstone a quote in the whole book from me and it's so it's such a simple quote 'em but so complex what i think is saying there about jason who is very sincere about his opposition to police militarization and police abuse anderson's here in his desire to you know to lie to race and that causes in has done a lot of work along those lines as part of more of the the libertarian conservative a waiting of police militarization critique which is been pretty strong for a long time but you know he's part of also this bundy circle and jason itself to his credit was not surprised prize without interested in aligned with him because of the baggage that his group brings on what i took two races quote as as saying what what what she's saying i believe is that it's it's not enough to know living inside obstructions right you're big universal generalizations that that underneath all of this is history 'em with tremendous gravitational and formative force on on person bodies and institutions and that you can't just pretend that you are what you say and you can't operate as if that's true because annual blithely naive late go into situations and just mess things up end up in the worst case scenarios end up just perpetuated either symbolically or actually the violence of the past when you don't actually attend to the work of understanding how as a human being we are historical beings and that means that were triggered by a lot of ugliness and a bell are are are ideas which made it even are ideas which may be on the surface might seem universal and good and beautiful in true are also worse by the minute i i mean i think this is a you know this described so much of what i think we talk about particular particularly in this era because so much of it seems a so much of of are politically moment seems to be well is obviously everything is on some level rooted in the past but so much of it is being brought up a in in maybe it's because of just sort of like a the the the fire hose of information that we get now that sort of like historical context in the history that interviews all positions and policies and opinions 'em are sort of like almost inaccessible we can't sort of climb over they these huge surging information a but 'em a so much of this lack of historical context it seems to me in views everything right now in it so just go a little bit give us something like a little bit more tangible i mean when this guy goes out there and says you know i've got a problem with the with the with the way the cops treat citizens like where you get more specific because you write a that that much of what happened a wizard we'd these bundy i guess you know hearkens back to the failure of reconstruction yes for me it does yeah well i think that the whole the whole era to me i saw this is where i think the history comes in connects also wear a huge part of are liberal dispensation which would also be the social media dispensation man be effective adam governance and with also those companies emerging as almost governing structures all plays into this story to but that's just sort of occupation self right i see is deeply connected to that period of reconstruction 'em as a form like when they went out there and they occupy that refuge and they said that they were there to turn the land to the rightful owners there's there's an aspect of that that i couldn't help seeing 'em also helping the perspective of the burns pie you try to sway immediately 'em as a kind of wild west show and kind of reenactments of settlement of violence settlement of the west is not how those people thought or they did part of it that they wanna see was you know the roller coaster era minus all the horror right so they're restating there's basically climbing up the lanta distributed to the people and make everyone freehold frontier mess but they're doing it in both messianic waiting for a while this just religious religious content and they're doing it as a live streaming and i'm thankful that you have like both in and they're also talking in all three registers are of are present in all very familiar conservative and reactionary talk about a overreach in federal tyranny and all this stuff so the past and the present were mingled together kind of images that they were they were sending out from there but the pass that they were particularly channeling often with total ignorance they didn't know the land was had been particularly or is i mean had been critically important native land and his health could be very sacred native land on a lot of ways our talking about like the center of all the water you know very dry redo it's pretty obvious that that would have been the center of all human endeavor fruit thousands of years so that history that particular period that they're reenacting is in that part of oregon 'em really comes to a head but the failure of reconstruction 'em in eighteen seventy six you have the election of rutherford behave a who was a republican from the republican party but the one of the most controversial elections actions that we've ever had and the compromise that brought him into office basically like brought reconstruction to an end including the removal of federal troops from the south end reorientation of the country tour it's sort of a unifying white priority in settlement of the west including the removal of troops more troops into the west on four pacification quote unquote in that immediate immediate result of that was a two one very famous among less a less famous wars against native populations doing in oregon there happened to be led by a general howard who is the head of the friedman's bureau which was dissolved but the reconstruction before actually who happened to be the general interactive displays in the nets purse in eighteen seventy seven the first year of howard stern nineteen seventy eight they came to the land exactly where the whole oregon occupation took place and displaced people who then emerged in this story of energy when he claimed he was taking his land give it back the rightful owners they were the people have been displaced by white settlers and then by finally by military force we're changing orientation of the country they came at the end of reconstruction at the same time the bundy's a lot of the rhetoric of the bundy's often again unbeknownst be notes them bears the mark of that time period one of their favorite series is a constitutional a sheriff theory which they tried to work at bundy ranch and also in oregon when they were trying to get the sheriff which of course he the future of the party county to shelter the the two ranchers who were at the center of the whole confirm that the occupation bloomed out of a from being returned the federal prison because according to the new year with a buddy i mill you and a lot of malicious w the sheriff is the highest law enforcement officer in the land on higher than the supreme court but this idea has a whole history going back to a all the way back to the jim crow laundered through or if it comes some of the most vile sort of a white supremacist civil rights organizations of the nineteen sixties the posse comitatus which a lot of these guys don't seem to know comes from there but that's where that idea comes from a different kind of tired of it ain't after they act that that ended a military use of military force in self and reconstruct i'm sorry for that long no nobody there's yeah there's a lot to unpack there and we should remind people that at one point 'em governor podge of maine met with some of these sovereign citizens who had been a a theory that he could contact the sheriff's and have them arrest be lawmakers who have who were bucking a low podge end there was the big story about how the pashas lawyers wait until they got out of the room and had basically talk him down and tell him no this is not this is i mean it's hilarious and it's also horrific 'em but art so yes so now i just to be clear the bundy i were they looking to return this land to the pie huge they were not a but that would be irony they were not right oh yeah it is that hit in that in that and apply were able to intervene in that very quickly very quickly very early on in the occupation they held a press conference in the whole area was saturated with press them so they got a lot of attendance and they were like basically came out like well that's interesting talking about the rightful owners and used it as a platform to give their history and their history of little known but all right well still a pretty big story yeah and that was you know i mean i i don't know if there's any dynamic that could show the sort of be the nature of particularly from my experience the libertarian strand in this in this type of movement where a the date of v original original inhabit hers is rather arbitrary it in and i would say rather arbitrary is i think maybe being generous tends to be when the first white person a took ownership of something is win property rights essentially actually start a according to them but be that as it may tell us just so let's back up how i think people remember the bundy ranch standoff but just reminded me of that and then tell us how it ended why did they go to oregon like what how did we end up weeds you know this part of the story well so the yes a two thousand fourteen was the showdown at the at the bundy ranch over that the federal grazing land of the bundy family on their ranch in the eastern part of a car counting about it out in the desert the clark county is also where las vegas in our story las vegas is actually very involved in it but that gets forgotten and because it goes back over twenty years and there's a whole issue there with the protection of the desert tortoise which is declared and endangered species in the early nineties caused the problem immediately but it's a big as it often is who's in a mega growth spurt and this threatened a halt the growth of vegas and so a lot of money was invested in minutes and somehow dealers negotiated the basically the county was able to count these rural desert areas in eastern extremities days as a special desert a tortoise protection zone and that included new blm bureau of land management regulations on the raising of the ranchers who were out there which meant they had the move their cattle during the spring green up when the tours is another old and you and they could run less catalan is put a lot of financial pressure on those ranchers excellent all of them except for cliven bundy andy i went out of business cliven bundy came up with another solution he looked in the constitution in a meeting has a very very devout latter day saints a firm a very super conservative mindset so renamed the constitution theologically as he tends to do he found a magical clause in there which told him that the federal government had no right to own land until he stopped recognizing the federal government's authority in the state of nevada and it played out in the court for twenty years and finally after back and forth the blm came to confiscate is cattle haven't been on the land grazing without permission or without paying fees 'em end because ammon bundy his son who had the standoff in oregon in a little kerfluffle appeal and police after his angeles thrown to the ground by one of them a west himself taste the few times and then that video went viral in sort of the patriot militia middle and you end up due to sell a logistical work by a young militiamen from montana disaffected iraq war veteran who had been trying to organize all these dispersed militia groups to come come to the defense of the people against federal overreach and constitutional abuses was able to put out the images and people came from all over with their guns in very quickly w o m decided the situation it's too dangerous and they withdrew and then and and then two years later that situation is still exactly as it was eminently if the boise idaho andy a case happening in hartford county came to his attention revolving around she found it really identify why did you why did you move the idaho i mean a as what was it yeah they were looking to have been a guy or what he told me is a part of it was a they were looking to move on it sounds like you know there's one kind of get away from all that groups lama he was leaving ethic near phoenix at that point he's actually not a rancher amman he runs a truck fleet maintenance business and i think he could do that remotely so they were looking around the west and he he claimed that actually you know he and his wife and family came to this place a an idaho etc plays in you know that you know keep everything hammond does is you know guided by the holy spirit so i'm just curious moment there any move the idaho and now he believes that that that that coincidence has to be meaningful because that brought in within three hours of harnett county which is actually otherwise near nowhere 'em it's the it's the place with the the point in the continental united states that's the furthest from interstate but he ended moving within three hours of there and then you know he said that he was moved by the holy spirit or a in in the way the he figures it to research the hammonds story about this family that would be sentenced a do this case about a longstanding dispute about management of federal grazing land is being returned to prison and he felt move to go there and then begin this whole process of calling these same people who had defended his family in nevada common pressured the sheriff shelter this have example when the hamad family rejected this helping the sheriff you know rejected these constitutional arguments they took it to another step in occupied the refuge and then why do they were first let me let me first like returning yeah well two things first is and maybe it's just because i like the way my mind works and i'm a little bit of noxious 'em did you say damn like how do you justify like having a business based upon any federal highway system if the guy's doing the trucking well would have been my first question of them 'em but i imagine you there i mean one of their their take on that stuff you're when you're hit with a wide questioning which he does a lot is take is that you know there are certain things that the federal government shutdown and roads is one of the post office is one of them on his father will be like weights and measures that we can measure that you know how needs to be a pound the new york and about a you know so indoor commerce okay so that would be his response to something like that but anyway that require protecting the environment a not one of those things absolutely not ran that definitely where falls balls into like also like a politically theology of their particular more minutes they definitely for them this isn't earthly so germs you know human beings are from earth earth this year as part of like a test a man you have to pass that and so the earth itself is here under human dominion to be used as part of the tests preserving 'em aspects of are not for argues doesn't make sense the earth is wholly for argues right there that's also another one of the conflict of world view that happened here yeah all right in front of it so so let me ask you this why did they decide to 'em in support of the hammonds or despite the fact the dams didn't want their support and and because they got a because the sheriff didn't realize this constitutional role why did they decide why did they go why did they look around what did they just basically like we need to take over some we need to basically take something back from the federal government the show are power and they just sort of decided on on this refuge because a they were it was sort of be most defensible ground and they were a more i guess you know better trained to deal with that in the woods then to go drive down to i dunno do 'em the you know some federal building you know a the social security administration building there's something i mean why would that basically it i said well first of they were doing it within the county 'em they were up also operating obviously the improv detroit way guided by feeling you know that they saw religious but in terms of the strategy that refuges is really key to that reason it's a it's marshland out in the desert 'em so it's also like the source of kind of where the water pools which is obviously incredibly important for any agriculture end also for all animal life it's the it's the source of life in the region 'em but i mean that's not they were thinking everything at the refuge in particular and its role the hammond family had had a lot of complex at the refuge earlier on in the nineties accomplice they were in trouble for now with the but the villain didn't have that kind of facility 'em amman actually had never been to the raptors before you occupied but a ryan payne they a militia leader who is kinda partner and this did go out and check it out and you discover that had a lot of a lot of logistical needs something like this they wanna do a kind of occupation they were inspired by the occupy movement but of course being like big second amendment people they're gonna bring their guns up you idea that you could just get zip tied and taken away from a protest was unacceptable to them so when refuge because of the amount of the budgetary limitations of somebody who are federal agencies especially when it comes to environmental protection they rely on a volunteer so they have great bunk house miscellaneous volunteers come out and do work which they saw i'm like this is a great place to park down whoever will come out and join us who's also thirties forty miles from town so outside of town but also read it literally you know it allowed and it worked as a guerilla based on it allowed them to move from there into town do propaganda and then shelter at night out there on a deal for out of town at a big there's a big firepower they could see who's coming but also provided a lot of facilities for them to host people show anybody january some winter and that was really important it's very very cold okay is that what's important insofar as a he he strategically you is easier for them because who's gonna campout and wait us out type of thing yeah and and also for like getting people come if they were gonna be cold many other things that they they knew that county the county is the size of massachusetts has seven thousand people and there's four deputies in the county at that time so they also know that like whatever they're gonna do they're gonna do they're because they amount of people that they could bring just sort of their horse on through their horizontal base but reforms were they going one person leading people in that county you basically a seventy people they could have been could have up there initially okay a naked immediately challenge like the the federal and local sovereignty on the region just like yeah so so basically i mean what happens while they're up there i remember watching the videos i mean they were live streaming is on on a on facebook i guess it was there i can't maybe it was on twitter i can't remember i remember people were looking to people were sending them all sorts of like 'em sex in a guys of of being supplies flies just watch them having the rule out you know like a big 'em dildo and that snacks that wasn't vani i mean so what i so you social media plays a huge role offer them because they're able to sort of contact people in find their support is across the country what else happens up there that implicates the story later i mean obviously there's one casualty which happened at the end of be a standoff basically in in some respects marked at a voice minicam 'em but but what happened during their that that ends up really implicating stuff later on in terms of the trials or in terms of like what how this story resonates yeah i would forward rent who are current i mean obviously the the the child of you know a narrowly things narrowly implicated in the context of the child but i'm saying you know we were there any things that happened there because obviously ammon bundy his his sort of has recant recanted i guess 'em but what would their stuff that happened there that that change their perspective or was it all the the sort of the fallout that did i wouldn't trade him and his canter 'em his his federal land standard exactly the same but he has as a renounced he's never really militia person and he's announced that a certain sector of that patriot movement that has gone a whole hog for trump and a particularly in relation to a the rhetoric around immigrants and refugees each which amac doesn't support he's a super mormon libertarian and southern borders not years of nativist trumpets and also you see a lot of that sort of rhetoric coming from trump i militia people is being yeah i mean he he called a fascist 'em so that that's the source of that break 'em also learned a lot in prison i think about using a private prison for a long time i think that change some of those perspectives by the time he got out of there or from prison he was advocating so the abolition of the prison system which is not something people were expecting a replacement other with a system of like restitution and a reconciliation which i don't know if you've done anything about that since he's gotten out of prison but in terms of what happened up then it became the whole thing is like what so tense and you also for a long time nothing what's happening at the press conference every day right they stage media events they're pretty good at doing that you know they caught offense flying to show that they were you know fighting federal tyranny they had they had the whole issue we ask the artifacts of a of the tribe that turned into a big issue of course behind the when it comes in there who is one of their leadership who who's the one casualty occupations that very involved in a tribe two years as a method to bringing the tribe into into the occupation in some kind of alliance which is unsurprisingly did not work especially since to the tribe the idea even handling the artifacts that were stored on the refuge and i were at the center of senate constantly johnston the tribe was both on offense and also a dangerous thing you just don't touch things in mess of things that are that were handled are made by the dead a in terms of jackson luck right in terms of luck or you're you're basically messing with the energy of the person who made that same idea basically put it too simplistic way really but element basically of their power stays in the thing they made end if you mess with that it sets up a bad relationship with other aspects of that person i mean it's gonna mess with a smile learn actually truly means a bad luck and eventually in french it means babycare misfortune which nobody none of the bundy i know it seems like i was often the person informing them that that was the name of the place they occupied another thing they that they didn't know about it in there is also the the role of the militia people who didn't join amman felt that they hijacked their thing with the rally for the hammonds on january second but also want it to play an important role at one point even coming out in full tactical gear to hijack annan's press conference and surround themselves with guys these long guns and actually say were playing a very significant role though what the role they were playing we've never exactly clear though that created did some of the most famous images of the occupation of these guys who are currently occupation regarding their leaders out there saying were planning a very significant role 'em so there's a lot of comics moments like that i'm including with all the snacks and if you're missing out their and also like the tension in the county they'll be at the bill bill and there's a lot of concern that it was gonna explode into something pretty horrible and violent do damage the county i mean do they support measurable support anywhere they had support there but not of the degree they believed 'em but they definitely have support 'em they were being people were coming out there and bringing them's whatever 'em and they were getting more attention i don't think they didn't seem to be getting support from they establish granting immunity at all maybe from smaller ranchers who don't have as much access the federal land and also some folks town is a really depressed there used to be a wealthiest per capita income county in oregon now it's by far the worst mainly due to changes in which the force is being used their which is also the northern part the county is playing for us so they had they got some traction with you know people disaffected people there but it never changed has been anywhere near half the county 'em annan believed it was everybody or the everybody lives against him work for the federal government that does not seem to have been true but it was definitely a dividing the county starting next year that you know it's also very heavily armed area so on everybody's armed out there so there was fear that could a who knows what would happen if people start shooting at each other i mean beyond just the the federal government going in and the rest of them is that at that point they fdr just playing a waiting game waiting for them to be in a position where they could you know right take out the leadership which is what they did so so looking back on all of this like where does this fit in well i mean is this are we looking at eight phenomena that has never left us or one that is resurgent or or what like i mean because it this disposition towards the federal government it seems to me is something that just continually rat raises its head in one form or another in largely even and i guess the story with these guys is it sort of almost unbeknownst to them as to what the roots of this are right like all of they said all be the legal precepts but they're basing their views on that the sheriff is the key 'em element you know be the most powerful a i guess law enforcement or government official that exist 'em is something that grew out of a theory that that basically grew out of i would imagine on some level like 'em chasing down runaway slaves were chasing you know like i i you know some measure of of relationship to maintaining slavery or the vestiges of slavery 'em what he's like contextualized this phenomena for ice and what did you say about the euro were living well again yeah i think that we see in what i mean one of the what i really saw in the occupation itself right is made this figures complex image of our now i would call it thinking of the now as being like where the the past and the present combined the foreman intertwined picture and certainly that occupation again in the way that they were seeking their way out of actual economic and social malays in the west through this reenactment of you know the the the heyday of the second wave of manifest destiny in settlement which is also the jim crow era and the you know the arab end of reconstruction era doubling down on you know white supremacy and in western settlement is something that speaks to american history across you across the decades since the nineteenth century periodically whenever you have a push towards more movements of social liberation you just kind of backlash but i have to locate itself in some kind of historical door ical historical period you know there's a lot of how they talk as extreme as they say there's a lot of how they talk about just reminded me of everything that came out about growing up you know right i mean a lot of it you know a reagan talked about ronald reagan talked openly about you know a government assistance programs of being the federal plantation remember that people still use that's all coated in that's just pure jim crow rhetoric and then it's still circulating in a in so much of our political discourse often poorly poorly understood that the people are using it but not properly understood by people who were hearing it you know and that makes so impossible so many conversations you know including ones that maybe you know to be very useful the hell i don't think it's possible have conversations about different kinds of intertwined sovereignty in saint land management involving local state and federal sovereignty if people come in with his entire federal rhetoric are just channeling on his horrible history without knowing it you know how how do you have a conversation when that history is not being acknowledged when you're states rights rhetoric in states rights rhetoric is confederate rhetoric and so how would how lisa the whole well i wanna interrupt you but but i i guess i'm curious the concept of states rights right i mean just you know to do you think it sort the broadest measure of this 'em was almost exclusively developed into the extent that it was used in other six let's say forums or in regards the other issues which simply to a further edify the idea that you can't come in federal government and tell us how to treat are black people is basically right what what are slaves a or a you know are now a freed slaves i mean it was it was i imagine you know early early on there was a notion you know maybe we were talking about the thirteen colonies of like hey a it's not fair that you get resources that we don't or that you you know or you want a some of these 'em the value that we get because we have crabbing you know we have access whatever like i i imagine there was voice or seaports shit right there right there is any ero where sort of for the state's 'em they geography created certain value that they wanted to make sure they were in having to give up because maybe there was some difficulty associated with it like you know we it was hard to build these docks or perhaps 'em there is you know well we've been founded by a group of people and we don't want them you know we want polygamy you know or whatever it is an m but like what's left i mean what's left today in this year a for those arguments you just rip out the sort of the coding they're like honestly like what is rhode island want within its sovereignty because of what's going on in massachusetts well i think that first of all like the the the the state's rents rhetoric is you know the the legacy that you're that you're mapping nursing is absolutely true man that's what makes it like as a physician a one that's like not an argument that that that goes anywhere but to a standoff right around the same time i think it's all part of what do they believe like if i think it's like when you told them like hey guys you realize like this was just about slavery and they go oh my gosh had no idea they say that it's not that it's not that it's you know that it's about federal tyranny blah blah blah right and that's about it then they go into an argument that local people know the you know the the the ones with the most articulate we're going to and arguing about how local people know how best had a manager affairs and you know bureaucrats in washington shouldn't be managing it blah blah blah be useful kind of reagan stuff threat you know and i think that where those arguments have legitimacy are are about like local vs big power structures 'em right that you know having local people involved in the decisions that affect affect them make sense yeah an end federal structures that make innovative room for local people the kind of directly operations in collaboration as actually has been going on in orange county unbe no study occupiers at the refuge who wouldn't know anything about that because none of from there i knew anything about the place 'em have been going on for about fifteen years where a local people basically getting to operate federal sovereignty collaboratively by consensus in terms of new policies buddy down on federal land like that kind stuff that kind of conversation seems simple legitimate to me but how do you get to a place where you can have a conversation that just about those practical things about land management in about different relationships to land about coming to some agreement when you have this rhetoric that's full of this horrible history that'd be denied i think it's incredibly difficult and nothing you know nothing happened in and nothing happens partly because of that horrible history but he also of course it's been mobilized super cynically by a libertarian right is part of it it's like they don't they don't mean for a state more powerful they like states states a week and they go go go local governments are which that's bullshit that thing about this is like anybody who lives in a small locality knows the corruption there there is a is is far more naked in many respects than it is in eight more bureaucratic state hey and then be the whole point theoretically if you genuinely buy into this notion which i i think is a legitimate like you want people on the ground understand the unique circumstances that exist in a community so that any type of sex federal law or assistance or whatever can be changed you know there's flexibility to to meet the needs of that area but how do you establish eight principal beyond that like they like the idea that you could come in into non place where you're not a local an offer anything in that context other than you should work with the feds is ridiculous it condor cuts knee exact point right i mean it's like it's almost oh yeah it's it's i dunno it's it's almost there's a there's a quality of like sort of like you know education reform an educator in in his argument that i think is is legit but then you sort of step out of like hey wait a second the whole point is they know this area you don't so beyond beyond saying that there should be some type of partnership you've got nothing to offer these people will be in that in that that blatant hypocrisy throw people and hardy county bananas can't imagine like you guys that do anything you're covered here to represent us a lot talk people in the county is like you don't speak for us you don't know anything you don't have a clue get out of here a an you know be irony of that was really obvious and also i think you see in that to go back to where we started with two races quote about jason you see like the violence so abstractions enough living by abstractions that give you a good feeling stretch so they come with these abstract ideas about localism to impose locality that they don't know because it makes them feel like there was a full meaning and purpose life saving america and we see in that the violence of that underlies that kind of pure abstract thinking right now sergio patty indeed i mean i think that go ahead what's in and then that's all happening with in this larger context of so many of our public institutions in public life public public spaces in public figures and things like unions and a being eviscerated and replaced with these privatized a public series of internet which obviously also like this whole thing wouldn't have happened without an and be able to organize this flock of fleeting sovereignty right the company pose a distraction on this place wouldn't have happened without without all the social changes in in different forms of privatization i think undermined all levels of power yeah i think that a that dynamic of abstractions being dangerous and then particularly hypocritical when that abstraction is that local a raleigh always a and you're not from that area 'em misses the point but it's a fascinating story shadow lands fear in freedom at oregon standoff a anthony mccann we will put a link to your book at majority dot fm it is a vailable tomorrow everywhere thanks so much for your time today i really appreciate thank you so much extra time and attention and that's where the conversation how my pleasure thank you all right folks fascinating stuff 'em yeah i'm this notion of like you know how much do we how much of like on the various things that we talk about on any given day deal wave say people who have essentially inherited these abstractions without any sense of the historical context from which they came which gave them birth an meaning hand like i found just across the board even stuff there's nonpolitical like the idea of like people just thinking that there there is nothing to symbolism or nothing inherit in ideas or or images or whatnot and the problem is is that if everybody who is completely lately ignorant then maybe it would just be a bad idea right a but the the the problem is is that there's the the same the same idea which i said this program and i think now there's data that shows this in terms of like protests and whatnot all you need is about five to fifteen percent of any given population to make change anand hand to cause problems obviously the number go smaller and so when you have people who adopt rhetoric and they don't understand what the the foundations that rhetoric scar understand there are people who do know what that rhetoric means they do know what lineage comes from and they build upon that i mean that's on some level that is a story that's happening in portland this past weekend right where air 'em there was clashes between somebody a patriot you know some a proud boys and a that ilk an anti fa folks and obviously most of be 'em media attention it's been a some people who were engaged in black box a tactics 'em attacking this guy who is who writes for a quick let end frankly i'd never heard of the guy i haven't seen enough footage of reporting on this like what what was the basis of this a the right would have you believe that antifungal is attacking journalists 'em but as far as i could tell those a ton of journalists around watching that attack now i i don't i don't think that 'em that guy looked a lot more a beat up a then then he should've i don't think they're i certainly don't condone violence not not a context you know people milkshake they they shouldn't and i think you'd get ticketed for that 'em but 'em and i mean actual milkshakes there's some question i think there was attempt the soviets even stirring some stuff yeah man supposedly there's there's some accident now my experience with the a cement is is is not quite like that you would be able to get away with that but there's been some skepticism express puts yeah i i reminded olive by anti fa super soldiers not to drink the wrong milk shake by mistake there you go it's gonna murder on your insides but the bottom line is like you know there's a lot of people out there who were just sort of hanging onto 'em sort of outer cohen centric circles of ideas that are founded and are structured on really really bad and oppressive ideas and they they may or may not know it but they mayor may not know that they're helping promote these ideas right i mean you see it i i will talk about the interview caleb cain again and did a longer interview with him and he's that kid who sort of fell into that wormhole let's start with stefan marlin you and then a by the time you start climbing out of it he was i can't remember what he called it a raced realist or something to that effect end 'em which is i guess like white supremacist adjacent andy so white nationalist end it you start to climb down the hall and it leads you there 'em because once you except one on premise is the case with anything right i mean both positive and negative 'em viking somehow find it i could actually jog one mile then maybe it's possible i could jump two miles like the point is is that the human beings 'em constantly every creating baseline to themselves and if you get yourself to the point where it's like hey you know just the reality is that race a you know you have i q distinctions between race in q actually means something beyond how you do on the i q test 'em ten the next step is easier taking the next step is easier taken that's the whole danger of these ideas i mean we see this we see people take down 'em a you know a buildings 'em now these ideas are also obviously hey function in their generated within in context historical end material contacts end some other people are subject to these context in some of the mergers receiving be ideas and passing them on a and then when they run into the people who were in the right context and under the right politicals scenario that's when these ideas get really problematic wait a minute ayman bundy's just sitting in his house and not doing anything bad just talking about ideas fine but they float around they hit the right person who is within a certain context that makes it problematic and that's when you start having problems yeah marks famously hated ideology and never referred to himself as a marxist exist even though marxism is arguably not an ideology and in of itself it is a framework for understanding capitalism well he in marks and i share that same thing high marks shallow but he had the advantage advantages saying like i'm marks and people just assume he drops the guest yeah he actually in any we talked about this a he endorsed say the the labor this labor i this labor i program in france which is interesting because everybody always talks about the critique of the gop the program which is his basically his version of saying something analogous the social democracy will be insufficient in a capitalist context but then conversely he embrace this a french worker party and said in the program he outlined at that time was all like equalize wages eight hour day in power labor unions total social democratic program and he said you know basically the people who opposed him in doing this like basically like yeah i i would not like you know don't attach yourself to my name is rudy there you you you in other words he had a concept of the dumb dumb left before i mean honestly marijuana buried but that we've pretty much what he was talking you should read what he said about the cunanan i'm done left 'em all right so reminder this 'em a this program relies on your support you could become a member by going to join the majority report dot com when you do folks you support this program for just pennies a day andy we give you in return turn extra content virtually every day virtually every day almost every day that we do the show 'em this week were gonna be off on july fourth and then we're gonna have eighty a short in show on friday that will be prerecorded accorded i believe 'em 'cause everybody goes out and barbecues except for me personally andy 'em i'll be on twitter i'll be on twitter monitoring monitoring things you're wrong um you could become a member i going to join the majority report dot com also don't forget just coffee dot co op fair trade coffee tea or chocolate use the coupon code majority at ten percent off it's always free shipping so check that out hand 'em oh when you get the idea when you become a member we also cut up yet so if you wanna know like how for instance you get today's special new yorker 'em deal and you're a member you just look at you're 'em in your member feeds podcast description and you will see the deals so you get the deals without the chitchat so of becoming a member today join the majority report dot com a we have a oh one i think we have a big announcement to make the next week and i sort of i sort of spill the beans on that a start a podcast with destiny dan 'em were rolling out something new oh this is great i think it's this is literally in something you've been waiting for something to do for a long time because i i've always like it's something that i wanna take here right now i just assume that everybody else does too but they probably i don't know maybe everybody else does maybe they won't but a will will give you more details in the next couple of days but a state chipped a today is monday tomorrow is to say tuesdays michael brook show day if you're not aware of that michael what is gonna be on tomorrow we're gonna be talking about reclaiming the future organizing for a post capitalism world and the joe biden time warp a whiz malaysia bali and in the commentary and then see anthony pantano who had been buddies was for a while online host of the needle drop is gonna join us and talk about are a he's a he might interrogate my we were gonna have him on a majority for any have him on cool how they're gonna handle yeah i got unskilled knows no scarcity guys think of you like andrew yang is no we're not everybody can have time with the new trump on all the podcasts platforms words unless you're a food stamps and lucio food stamps then you can speak to them real choose whether you talked to him where you feed yourself so anyways we're gonna be talking about reggae and nineties hip hop till today were also both of followed by see at lula social accounts we might talk about that a little bit looking forward to it seven o'clock on the michael brook show you to channel patriot dot com slash tm bs jamie this week on the anti fatah in are free episode from wins day we had a wide ranging conversation with chad vigorous eight k eight pretty bad lefty from twitter dot com about white people music race socialism class an more in are bonus episode drops patrons on friday we interrogate chad vigorous is somewhat hot take but he would rather have communism with some racism then perfectly woke diversities capitalism so check it out virtual rigorous perks indeed it's also like yeah it's it's it's just it's just a good a good problematic shall we say also this week we're running pruitt cult as our main episode on wednesday state so if you're interested in hearing aid pnd talk about a the new season of black mir as well as a ufo's the paranormal the parents social repair politically check it out also just a little note about me i'm going away to tommy camp tomorrow so i will not be here for the rest of the week sitting in an undisclosed location in a city charge hopefully i don't run into any yeah bundy types went in there they go 'em tumor the guy who challenge chris christie to a sumo wrestling match you remember that sumo wrestler he was he was at the bundy ranch she was one of the empire's any got literally into a diaper challenge chris christie to sumo wrestling match a i was reminded of how this movement fitting into the all time great political movements history apparently as speaking of joe biden we were just talking jesse jackson just basically went on said he's been on the wrong history side of history a terms of civil rights can't can't help at the same you mean on these same day the simone sanders said that he was modeling his idea after the rainbow coalition jesse jackson said it was the opposite of that it appears simone sanders is regularly a little bit behind the results by nine cycle like her she is like always a couple of i'm starting to wonder simone sanders is still committed to the bernie sanders revolution a yeah literary hangover check out the most recent episode on the understanding hawthorne's obliged dale romans where he makes fun of utopian socialists a sort of premark socialists of america that he was kind of a part of and then a later this week i'm recording with my a co host chris a wrecker bregman utopia utopia for realists romantic about you'd be i will probably talk about a lot of by gang gang there to 'em in his work week and a half and there's other some of his other proposes but basically it's gonna be you'll be i think you'd be a trojan horse or is it a universal reversal strike fund a were gonna get to the bottom of one of right wing came out it was in favor of of of of you'd be i but not as they meet not as in the idol war i think he has a moral left you'd be using in a moment not cut i think we need a genuine liberal leftist leader going with some shorthand for describing like you'd be i as as an add on or address attraction you'll be i left you be i write you be i that's how i think about sacrilege sacrilege all right folks see you in the front of leftists that jamie and i may have a disagreement yeah you can't say whatever you want about people just because you're rich i have an absolute right to mock them on you choose brings up there buggy whipping like he's the boss i am not iroquois you heard the negativity i'm sorry i didn't mean to be nervous a little bit he riled up yeah you should rethink you're defensive that you're fucking idiot which is going to get rid of you all right good dude dude dude dude dude you wanna smoke disjointed yes do you feel like you are a dinosaur shit exactly i'm having a win win win win win a title yet listen to me two three four five times eight four seven six five oh one four five seven to thirty eight fifty six twenty seven one five eight three point nine billion wow but also the master don't you say why don't you get a real job since the trail and hatred elect limbaugh everybody's taking a dump views the dance dance dance blue river grown over her rand paul had my first cuisine and hoping that more moves to my repertoire all i had a dip in this world by the yes this is perfect moment no late what you make a hundred million those comments nothing use me fuck you fuck you leave i belong jay saying that you're right horrible despicable person by gotta take quick break let's take a moment to talk to some the libertarians out there whatever vehicle you want to drive to the library while you're talking about his uber jab elastic feeling more chill already donald trump being all bar exam andy you guys ready to ride shares lower with such now agreed to man yes wow wow that's unbelievable this guy's got a really good

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The Conspiracy Farm Ep. 153 Sonny Puzikas

The Conspiracy Farm

1:02:07 hr | 1 year ago

The Conspiracy Farm Ep. 153 Sonny Puzikas

"Live your life boy. Ladies and gentlemen welcome to the conspiracy farm where we don't start to conspiracies. We just had the water. And now your host of the most state of the art multi and four five cast on the inter-web I present to you. Tangent said Ladies and gentlemen rear naked. Choke up Cocker Spaniel. Brian. The neighborhood of go check it out. A reddit. Did Do lazing gentlemen. We are locked and loaded for another installment of the conspiracy farm. Jeffrey Wilson Always Rolling Shotgun with my partner in crime had militants second show of the day champ. How we doing the first? One was heavy Well let's Jim New Jersey. Wow you actually had a brother up. It just feels dude straight up the explain the sunny well who they are Eating Smith French body. They are the proprietors of the Attila's Jim in New Jersey which has just been fighting the powers that be in New Jersey to open their stuff. it's just absolutely insane. What he's had to go through but before we get started to craze Leeann gentlemen. We have announced numerous times. We are now on dish TV dish network if you were on dish network dish communities and search conspiracy forearm and you will see these absolutely. You will think you were watching the spice channel. Because we're so hot but it is just rap and I'm serious man I of course we had to have him back. He's been on the show numerous times. He's truly one of my favorite guests but he has a perspective that is ringing so very true right now. Ladies and Gentlemen Sunny Zeka sees the Al Hefei over it forward training concepts and many other things sunny. How we doing this evening? I'm doing good sir. And you you know. I can't complain I can and we're GONNA do it tonight right out. That's where we're we complain complaining. What substance so sure. We should try and keep the what the resolutions are though right. We've gotta discuss those course solutions and you know just going back before we get too deep into the conversation. We had with and Frank Today. You know it was. It was super heavy man in it. It really hit me hard when he was explaining how his mother had caught covert and went into the hospital and it had to be a choice of. Do I see my mother and her in the final moments or do I go? Fight the fight because if he if he went and saw his mother he would had to have been quarantined for twelve to fourteen days and he was literally in the middle. If you look at the story about Franken in and add his Atlas I'm sorry. What is it that Atlas Attila? I'm sorry Jim in New Jersey. I mean they're just going through with the governor all the authorities. It was absolutely crazy that this man had to make that choice but anyway bro. I've been following. You obviously your lives. We had you on about two months ago and we definitely wanted to. Have you wanted to see how things are playing out and something you said man? In one of your live videos would hit me really hard. You're like man I've lived. You live your life about the first part of your life under Soviet madness communist madness and you're not about to as human beings become an American citizen center about to go through that again. What are you? Why are you saying that. Are you seeing signs of that type of lockstep going on sunny boulders? I mean you know. I'm pretty sure this is a rhetorical question. Gummy view of course of British for you guys see those steps quite clearly and You know I think a lot of people you know I. It's not gonNA be taken away in one heavy punch it's GonNa be Bhai multiple multiple small cuts and we're seeing those cuts happening and And you know it's not so much. What the government does it's more about what we allow it to do service because we give them their their power derives day day our our employees and they should be reminded about it in the heavyweight because I think they have gotten over the past few decades in jail mindset that they our rulers and if we don't remind them swarm day really gonNA start believing it wholeheartedly. Well let me ask you. And we've said it man but we've we've almost allowed this to happen. They've rocked us to seep rocked us to sleep for a very long time. We've allowed this to go for a very long time. You name it whether any of these wars have been started for bullshit assassinating leaders domestic foreign our wheat at. It's almost rhetorical again to foregone. Look at what they've allowed to happen over many years and but look at. What how they've locked down metaphorically and literally in such a short period of time in two months. They've turned this country into something. We wouldn't even recognized three months ago. You know Kinda torn about it man. I'm kind of torn about it because when I went you know for the first time in my life I did a public display with my rifle. I picked up my fricking rifle. Beautiful CUSTOM-MADE AK and I went to the barber shop. Not Shop at. Here's a lot in Dallas This was just before she got arrested. After the court and A lot of police officers rolled up but they were slightly outnumbered by citizens with rifles. You're referring to the woman dowse who opened her shop. Yes archbishop yes show Luther And I got to know her. I got to mow. Her boyfriend. Talked about things for a little bit. You know and a lot of people were the goal like so when you guys going to do what you guys are. GonNa shootout the cops or you're just GONNA peaceful surrender. So where's your where's your and I was thinking about it and I'm like what if those guys out of the police. Cruiser stepped outs and it became a symbol. Would I go forth old away a what I say? Maybe it's not the time and taught about it because few days later some of the other guys that were there with me Daddy Day you know. They're not professional gunslingers. They gun enthusiasts they went to or Desa Texas to help the open. Some bar and The Sheriff There Send Swat team and they got arrested right. You know and a lot of WANNA be tough Blair southern Internet. We're talking all look at these boo-boys they just dropped their panties of gave up. You know you should never say. I'm for freedom. Come and take it and all that stuff and I'm thinking maybe this is America. Maybe this is how we do it. We show that we willing but not necessarily gonNA go there yet. Maybe this is civility of America. And I'm thinking to feel that it would be morally justified to go like Mo dudes. I can pull the trigger just as good as in fashion me order to stand there let him. Oh and then surrender your gun and get arrested and get released because looking you know the our governor Abbot. You know he's an asshole up with all these orders and all these home. There's an older stuff but when you started seeing these Americans these these guys without combat experience. Not Tough guys. They skinny jeans but they're carrying their little rifles and standing up for something. They're not fighting for but they standing up for something maybe pressure was enough for him to rescind disorders. Maybe that grocer was enough for him to modify those orders where they had to release people from prisons and and no longer imposing fines. Maybe this is the correct American way. Maybe this is. It's not necessarily that. Millions of people have to buy threes. Have to floor. And I'M NOT SAYING THAT WE'RE NOT GONNA get there but I mean honestly guys would rather see S- threes flowing rats and millions of people that than maybe a little bit longer but more civil process and at least attempting to fix until we see slow longer fixable work. That's what I've been asking you know. Not just you would other cats who have been on what's that. There's no definitive line there. What's that line? What is that line of like Jim what we cannot really define a Jeffrey? We can find it but you know what one did. Once they draw it will know that week across it. They haven't they. You know what I'm saying with literally when they're releasing hardened criminals who on record are going out cutting their ankle bracelets off even if they don't have an ankle prices going and doing other shit some of these ankle bracelet guys. I read about the other day in Florida. I think it was they rape somebody and kill somebody. But they're arresting people who are walking their dogs and hanging out with their daughter me immune for me. I mean again almost another conversation comparing this to the founding fathers and they went to war taxes they would be almost rolling in their grave right. Because we've gone so far beyond that it almost creates that question. Where is the line? That's been crossed that needs to be crossed since neither coverage. And you know what and maybe just maybe with these coming elections some of these players some of these kings will will have a price to pay and I believe if some of they paid the price. We'll see that certain degree at least in limited capacity. Our process is working. If they don't pay the price of all these douche wagons get reelected and they and they exercised their power further. You feel empowered by an old. They're gonNA push it further and I think if that happens that's where there will be a shot as they say that will be heard across the country again the news today you know this covert thing that has shut down the planet not just the United States. The planet destroyed millions of lives millions of businesses suicides through the roof. They dropped the charges on certain senators. Three or four of them. Who knew about this? And were guilty of basically insider trading and dropped the charges again. Where's the line I want to go to my business and opened up I? I have to lament the one in the quad cities where we're from where I read about one hundred year old business had to shut. Its doors. And this is one of many. That's lamenting the same story. But yet these guys get trillions and bailouts and you know drop charges from the Department of Freak injustice for literal blatant insider trading atman. That's cross by late. It they said what the fuck you going to do it again. I'm not one of these. Hey it's not how it's GonNa work but it's like the optimist I wanna be an optimist but I honestly from my individual perspect- I will give it a little bit time to see what is going you know. I'm out here in the country where I live. Businesses Star Open. Mohan is coming to SHUT PEOPLE DOWN. Mona's arresting no what is finding people are different doubt in Dallas. But then again you know when you look at most of the especially on the on the east coast and then extreme west coast and most large cities around country whether it's mid west of deep south you know I mean look judge. Look at the mayor's look bad you know mayor the Mayor of Chicago. The Mayor of Chicago terrifies me. That Women Age. She's not even bordering on Cyprus psychopath she is straight up psychopath. One hundred percent row and illegal goes sixth grade on describe how she looks like a fucking Klingon but she's a beautiful human being deserted. All of us who human you know what I mean. We're all beings of light. All Children of God is what I'm saying but yeah she's she's got the bags. The opiate caused huge bags underneath. Her is do not tell me serious. Transplant from freaking. Mars but I mean again going back to what you were saying. This is again. I'm not trying to put anybody on blast. But how much is it about rhetoric? Land of the free home of the brave. We're learning the woods. Fucking training for Tierney in in when it actually happens it's more just kind of conceptual in some people some people's eyes in the only time they really get Biglou when it knocks on their personal door is not the larger concept of freedom and liberty in a threat to freedom everywhere as a threat to free a threat to freedom. Anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere. What are your thoughts on that man is it? Is it really have to come knocking on our individual door for us to really get it or through the usual sovereignty or should these these concepts of freedom and liberty and all that insane individual? What door you know. It's going to be knocking on your door when you can no longer pick up that you want to pick up. It's going to be knocking on your door when you can no longer make a payment for your apartment and you are being kicked out. Steak'll organised no state law bailout or no bailouts is going to affect people and and if they continue with this shit is going to start affecting more and more people and guess what is going to start affecting the most is going. GonNa Start Affecting the most individuals y either small business owners cannot get that six hundred dollars extra unemployment or surprise surprise a lot of illegal Mexican dukes working hard and construction landscaping and so forth and so forth and people that they liked to call disadvantaged there are people of color and all that stuff in South Dallas your to have bunch of folks of color whether they black or brown or white doesn't matter you know. Dakin longer afford to buy them foods you know they go terms and churches are running out of her freakin. You can no funds because guess what. They're not allowed to hold services right up everywhere. All these do-gooders they talking about told this is about caring about others all that stuff watch it. How within the next twelve months somewhere in Africa? We're going to have probably additional million to two million deaths from starvation due to what just happened in civilized world and what you do gooders say them to send more food. The money right. Why we in this? Why we here in the first place because of your calls retiring because of your calls for frigging because you fell for that fearmongering because because you are willing to become slaves in exchange for a little bit of comfort and Pat on the back scary place. I wouldn't want to be in one of their heads. That's a horrible place to be Bro. It is it's scary sir. How how human that that? That's supposedly board in. This country lived in this country and suppose them to stand with countries about our human can actually just stay whole living in this country but golden calling for everything that's completely opposite this country supposed to be about exactly exactly. How do we come back from this? Dude I mean. Is there going to be an ASTERIK SENTENCE? Before like land of the free home of the brave abstract and again that goes to what on my larger point like do we just kind of had these organizing narratives and concepts that we just kinda lament to make ourselves feel better but when it actually gets take and put to the test. It's you know again. I know there are people pushing back on this. They're absolutely are gentlemen talked to today. Ian and frank. I mean it's happening but at the end of the day man. It's like how are we able to sit by and watch criminals being released while people trying to make a living in just doing the basic right right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness. Get arrested this is the version of reality man. You know this is. Here's the fake. Remember Bundy ranch yes. People stood up and people are ready to pull triggers. Many of them that were there. I knew they were ready to pull triggers it was literally a Frickin two pound pressure away from triggers being pools. Okay and why do you think that happened? Why do you think what was special about Bundy? Ranch uranium was special about it because people that organized at movement to go there and stand up to be a lemon all that stuff. They used approach in social media derived two way date triggers. What needed to be triggered? Just like share. The looter dollars has done a lot of people are not doing day not reaching out. They thinking that just them talking about their personal tragedy will connect with other Americans is not connected. It is not connected so people like you guys. I think this is where it's going to be huge task. What you guys is to start connecting the dots for listening and Buick public. That you're that guy being arrested in his Jim being close you see his livelihood destroyed. That's you two weeks from now. Yeah Damn straight smoke. That's your neighbor or six weeks from now gyro and we'll tell I wanted to ask you man we. We kinda talked about this before because it was the the beginnings of it these contact tracers the snitch lines. I mean how much does that freaking? Keep you up at night just like flashbacks of this mad. This from this commissar bullshit that was going on in Germany or even a couple of hundred of them. I can't remember what city was that names were released to the public. Nightline insult actually Missouri. Yes right here. Heidi which honestly. What are your thoughts on that? We got stitch lines. What we talked about. And then we have these contact tracers. Which in my opinion I'm not a Sun Suu Art of War Guy. But obviously they're obviously doing a lot of data extrapolation so these people are literally almost infantry of some of this mad. They're on the frontlines going to into whatever because I can guarantee there's certain doors they're gonNA knock on do that shit where it's not going to be girl scout cookie try perception. We won't be and here's fan man think about it. These people that are doing these people that are snitching that are on their neighbors that are calling on their fellow business owners day doing without any threats of violence from St Against Them Day doing it without any reward being offered. They doing it on the free. You know what's beautiful about it? Yes this is. This is a moment for America and Americans to come out of the fucking closet and we doing it for good side and the bad side. You know what I love about it. Two lines will be fucking clear will who I love man in that sense. I absolutely love it. There's going to be. I had this friend. Who's you know you know what screw that? I'm going to make him public. Our it did in my some of my live videos you know. He claimed to be former navy. Seal which was fake story altogether. But you know he's a big influence during the gun community and all that stuff you know. Months ago he was like send in the National Guard to contain. These mother fuckers that are not keeping keeping the social distancing and not closing business. I'm that staying at home. Can play self and all that stuff so I called him out on that. He called me a Russian spy publicly on social media. You know that I'm doing a good job for the for the motherland and all that stuff you know lately. He has changed his students. He's talking like fuck the government. Fuck the snitch us. And all that stuff. You'll a red pill grow. He got red builds overhead. I wonder where that happened. Threats guilt he switched. He covered his ass because he feels that in his community and his surroundings he stood out like a sore interesting. Okay I didn't know hose be the PUCK and closer. He's a Bra fucker. Who's GonNa turn on the dime? I was thinking about coast. Rather I've been thinking about red coats a lot. And there's a lot of Lindsey Graham Mitch McConnell just the name of the maybe it's a good thing because at the end of the day this shall pass but we'll know who is who. Yes and one. The next one comes and it's welcome in the background is the wildlife that surround love. It is goosing. The I ponder in that light baby living that best life. I Love Catching Bass. Actually we have lowered large bass in here grill grill stuff gets down to hang out with you and Ford or chain concepts and do a little bit of that business. Can't wait but yeah keep going. Go ahead that I wanNA talk about your man. How often you actually don't fish not because I don't like fish. Don't have time but my son will spend a little bit of diamond. He's very avid fisherman. So I get catch. Fish can catch fish in a mud puddle. So I'll have a good time all right man. You just have to find your way here in east three stacks essence. Verts awards sunny. You I dunno you ever catch remember Virgil Word Pats. Oh I yeah. Of course yeah school. Fishing Abe Winkelmann Man. They Winkelmann Brother Bill. Danes buildings fishing. I'm sorry we don't walk in Sideways Dude but look you know. At first. I was kind of depressed in depressed in the sense that I'm like I can't believe what I'm seeing. I can't believe so many people in this country are actually heretical. Can't believe they so willing to give up their freedom. They liberated do to betray the principles. And just and just go with the fucking government program but now that I think back. I'm like you know what this is beautiful king to call his close. We see him for years. We HAVE NO DOUBT. Who's GonNa be a friend and WHO's going to target or her? We ever cared everywhere as well. Carreno funny enough most lady's name Carranza actual advice ladies and they don't fit into that category. Sure what am I friends? Actually renamed his started calling them spas. Karen's there we go there. We go good friend of mine. Said she'd people are GonNa through this. We're going to start showing their ass and I can't even tell you in so many different interrelations how that is happening and it's so interesting. How you phrases did. It's almost good. Start Start Making these demarcation lines. Whatever it is whether it's a mask or you know whatever it is. It's good to know who is gone to war. You want to know who your enemies liberals are of the Liberals on social. That's what I was. GonNa say if I it's just like according to the book. The Art of war. Yes no you'll enemy and we don't have to work very hard today exposing themselves fucking strippers. I've noticed a lot of liberals on social media have become more quiet. They're not saying. Oh walked a lot more quiet. Quiet swear to build once no redcoats. They simply quiet because this is not their moment to shine wind up. They were quiet about is they were quiet about the about the economy you know then spoke when they spoke up when the Black Guy Georgia got guilt and now the black guy got skilled in the Minneapolis right. They came out and look what they made it about. They made it strictly about race instead of understanding that the bigger game is not racism and bigger games. Fucking police states. Yeah yeah wherever or Yellow Brown with Windy. Get A fucking tongue. Top off is the out of control policing out of Control Bullshit. Power Games that a lot of any in. I said I said earlier today during our episode which really the whole fucking video and I hate watching that. She didn't to watch those like shock videos and get off on. I don't know just sick twisted but watching that video I almost forced myself to watch it and twisted in of itself watching that happen but to hear the people on the outside it in like commentary you know. Hey I get what you're doing is Bubba Buck. It's a metaphor for a lot of what's going on. We're seeing human. Civil Constitutional Rights is being trampled on people being murdered right in of us in a part of this culture. We're rubber coating it instead of doing something about it. Not only we not doing shit. Were recording it on our phone. Look you know some Joe Citizen in Minneapolis. That he's equipped drained or has a willpower to do truly something meaningful. He's going to come up and tries to push that cop he's GonNa get the should be out of him or possible shots and it's not going to win anything but is that a metaphor again with what we're dealing with now and again. I'm not trying to advocate violence but were at some point in time. We're GONNA have to start taking one for the team. I'm not necessarily going to do it but it has to happen. That way right otherwise. This is just allowed to happen. Be there has some some level of resistance or pushback and get it. I feel what you're saying to. And that's what he's thinking like. I'm not gonNA touch that cop because I'm going to get fucking handled. Just like he is but again. That's just an aggregate of this larger context. We're talking about how many millions of people are going to be out of work. How many suicides we can have to deal with before we realize a buck environments of the Ninth Nine Nine Lake late bill? Let's everybody just wants to stand up. Just don't participate in their program. Don't participate go to work for everybody to work because do anything. They're trying to take over this narrative of you know this Cole. Nineteen golden on this shutdown. Going on the governor of Michigan is being Hitler you know and all of a sudden all racist white white cops killing black guy. I knew that was coming to you. Settling your own people cheap by saying that this is about white or black. Think no this is about fucking police abuse. Why black it's just. It absolutely doesn't matter. Yeah 'cause white white cops are going to white businesses to shut them down and change their locks and arrest them again. You're absolutely so corrected. It sucks again the threat from freedom anywhere as Frente everywhere. We have to realize that. And that's what sucks when we get caught in this extreme tribalism t shirt. We've got to make a conspiracy t shirt. We gotta have white beard beaten up another white and Paula white on white vinyl plenty of marketing through there but again just divided into groups. That's part of the plan. You divide everybody into groups. The group fighting off against each other when in fact the larger plan is fucking as Bo re one. Now think about that though. Here's the thing here's the thing I got add in here. That people aren't taking into account I'd like to think Americans are smarter than they're being anyway. that the digital currency and the control of that and the ability eventually with social point system and everything that's been mastered in China. That's how they take the Alpha's out because we're the ones that are socially acting up to them right so they out the Alpha team take away their bank account. The can't go to work can't can't jump on an airplane and all that good stuff and and and all the all. The alpha's are starving bro. So just a warning the hell out and go to work. That's all you gotta do. Just go to work. I'm a motorist. Also I can tell you that. There's another positive thing that I'm noticing that least in the in the surroundings that I'm I I I deal with a lot more dudes that used to be only you know. Yeah let's just go to the range and shoot some targets. They actually calling and asking questions about how to farm the asking questions how to raise cattle. They learning how to do the Sustainable Living Day. Learning HOW TO DO SECURE COMMUNICATIONS. They trying to learn how to use the silver and the gold and other precious finks. They learning about storing ammunition. They learning you know what I mean. So there are positives coming out of there that on just people understanding what we are facing. But they're they're out. There's significant number of people that are actually taking concrete guy that steps to prepare for what's to come and that's what we talked about me and not only this is a social political financial reset. It's spiritual reset of like. Oh now not only just spiritual but just like your shit together man. Let's let's take us up become more self sufficient which they've been frowning on forever but I think a lot of people are starting to get like. Yeah this is I need to get my shit up because the right exactly exactly anymore is not a theory. Sorry Pad when I when I see people like out in the parking lot out in the middle of nowhere with their masks on and some of them have gloves on her or with the same thing you know you just you just you just go. Oh my God I just feel. It's an I just go house the financial collapse treat you. Just walk away. Because there's there's not the their brains aren't absorbing that this is a financial collapse it's not yes. There is a virus and we pray for everybody. That's lost weight financial collapse. I mean on on the back of that. They're going to build the whole new technocracy the new digital currency etc. This is so far beyond the virus mean even though in again socks men are frank and anybody whose family members who've been affected by this because it has affected people but again when you look at the stats and the number you know ninety nine point nine percents or rivalry. They shut down a planet a flat planet based off of some Bullshit Terry Wreath at the death of the dollar largest redistribution of wealth. Wherever saint aren't sunny you are awesome right there. You start on your what. Get some tomatoes there. Yeah got my tomatoes. Got My Basil. Got My carriage. Got My watermelons that my dragon tons. Beatings got my potatoes. Got My got my food man. Yes food and behind the me. Huge Green House there their their stuff in there as well. Wow that's better so you can grow during the in behind that greenhouse that's where my to life shooting ranges are and Yes so you're not beautiful turf but he he just don't talk about it he sees about at. That's what's so beautiful man. Yeah and we CAN'T BE I. I saw dudes now even living in the city in their small back yards. They calling back checking out the websites looking at survivalists youtube videos. How to how to build raised beds? How do upon how to do other things you know what I mean. People are starting to pay attention. Which I think it's a beautiful thing. It's a good thing because this was a test. Although this is a financial reset but a spotless control of population this was at this day. So how far they can go and the ones like us that stood out like a sore thumb have been marked Well do you think you haven't been monitoring for only sunny said that in one of our first conversations. He said that if you don't think that you already been tagged rather I remember that that you've been tagged minutes. Let me put it this way. Whichever List your not on before me and you talk the first time. I've talked the first time selectively with your cell phone every remaining list after that so absolutely I am honored. Yes honor to be on the list. So sunny man. Let me ask you a maze. You see kind of play out in like you said. The writing is beyond on the wall. I mean none of us are fortune tellers. And we don't want to be doing word but we're looking at a very pragmatic practical situation. Playing out before is what do you. What's going on three six months down the line year? You know I when we've talked about agenda twenty one. I don't know if you're familiar with that. But it's a whole all said and just everyone pushed into mega-cities etc. Let's almost clearly a sorry I was just going to say. Just have sunny. Give the positive if we react outcome positive. If Lou stand up out tell positive. We send up outcome. I think nothing is going to be happening major until after member after the election after the election. I think there's actually going to be an election. Yes there's going to be an election. I think we'll be an election. I think the will be an election. I think we'll probably see some very interesting surprising. Moves on the what's Sleepy Joe and what's going on in that camp. Yeah he's GonNa die he's GonNa drop or something they're going to yet in there. There's a ringer in there somewhere. I don't know how it's GonNa play out whether it's the you know Hillary Michelle Obama plus ability but when Joe Biden says that he's going to be Joe Biden. People think it's funny but they better listen day but they do bail votes. Here's a thank guys. You GotTa look at this if they called a mailing votes in Iowa. You know that's the that's blatant You know that's so easily corrupt that you can't do that. You've got to do walk in Park in the Dan Building and pull the lever voting period so if they try to cancel that because of Corona virus in the fall and winter which. They say they'll be a second wave you know who knows But it does happen then they just cancel because there's a huge flight or whatever in Senator Kennedy There's another wave of gilded and I think I think they don't have much chance in bad because for one of British shore that this whole mail in ballot think we'll go all the way to Supreme Court. I'm pretty sure is going to be ruled. Certain ways not necessarily hold big faith in institutions. But I think Supreme Court on this one they probably will see a very serious threat to tread. End The republic periods. Yeah it'd be. I also looking at your browser history. All right yeah so with that stuff. I'm not sure I think we'll see the election. I think we'll see trump being reelected but I think what's going to happen after it can go into some dark places if it hasn't already well. We headed there. But it's it's still kind of undefined. Something that we. I'm sorry go ahead and I think you're twenty twenty. One will be decisive because if we're not going to see a complete breakdown and streets running red in twenty twenty one we're probably will have a break until twenty twenty four. Twenty four is my final date for thinks either changing in the civil ways or were will have a walk in this country. Let me what are your thoughts on the potential. I mean there's this cash flowing out everywhere just the over printing of cash which in my basic financial analysis is hyper inflation. How long's that you know? Were literally moving on that Lima Republic type thing where you got wheelbarrows a cash for bread. I mean fuck four years out guy. That's a lifetime. I think I'm just saying don't even know but the ramifications financially going back to as we do reset and do start back up again jobs that were they're gone. I raise Gone Susan. I tired John Deere. There's entire John. Deere planets in Iowa to and island no clown planner works and stuff. They've shut down. That's John Deere you John. Deere's look twenty and this year. Twenty twenty four Jesus. I'm thinking I'm literally thinking it's going to go gnarly by like next Christmas. Just because people aren't going to be unemployment or whatever the free money will be gone. Jobs won't be there you know. I'm seeing a series implosion taking place. Sooner than later I could be wrong. Free money is easy to come up with. You know just as easily as two point one trillion bailout. Bill do three and five and eight trillion and so forth. Those bailouts won't do Shit Day on nothing but lie and step stores hyper inflation. That's irreversible but it will be sustainability for appearance of order appeal. This is going to be nothing but delay tactics. I think after this if the right steps not made within the next six months we are in the free full that is I give the final line as twenty twenty four. Possibly twenty twenty one as that. We'll see a reset from the bottom up versus where we said that they that they imposed from the top down and it seemed like they've literally left no stone unturned from collapsing. Your bigger multi you know NBA etc the NCAA. They didn't do March madness. Holy Crap how much money they lose their down to your mom and pop business like they. They've hit everybody just like midwest wrestling the NCAA wrestling championships chips. Do I'll all of it the NCAA finals the NBA finals. Starting Lean starting of the major league. This really not really who sports guy like that. I like the OC but this billions of dollars. Right absolute action trickle down. How many people? I involved directly and indirectly working for these organizations. How many people serve directly and indirectly during the Games during the tournament during the Hot Seasons? And all that stuff. These businesses portrayal hotel workers restaurants the restaurants sort of industry on all the way down to the lift and Uber Drivers. You know those businesses out again. They left no stone unturned for the little guy but the big guys get trillions literally. Just Uber's bartenders. Restaurant Service everybody. Hertz and Avis Hertz and just love I saw that Kurtz Bankruptcy doping. Here's the thing we were talking about Armegeddon. We were talking about Carbon Magadan. Three years ago I was in an argument online with a guy from the united auto workers at worked at one of the plants and he of course they close the plants. They all the auto plants and he's totally in support of it and I'm GonNa do you realize you're not going back to work. You know how many new cars are sitting idle right now. Do you know how many used cars there are are out there and the bottom dollar? They're gonNA eventually go for Jude. I could pick up. Pick up a fifty thousand dollar pickup for like twenty grand ten grand. I'm telling you anything that someone has cash laying around. This is the time to buy a car for that. Sure and the house. I mean houses in a lot of places are gonNA drop dramatically. The prices right it. Look this is GonNa be big time big time. You know a waterfall effect. Because you're looking at you know real estate collapsing. But you know what the biggest collapse is GONNA be is commercial real estate. Yes it's insane. Broach businesses are now will figure out ways for most of their workers to work from home. Offices WILL BE. Vacated offices will be dropped come. We're you did make some really kick ass shoot houses cheap. Yeah at what houses would you save? Thousands forced training offices. Yeah and training and all that SORTA stuff that's a blast but think about all of these owners of that commercial real estate they don't own that real estate outright they have mortgages on it. Yeah those mortgages are not necessarily held by big banks a lot of his financial smaller regional banks working with small businesses. Get how that's GONNA end up ugly? I mean You know there's a lot of small banks here in Iowa they privately-owned and you worry about them. You worry about the run on the banks of actually you know was not day not GonNa get Federal Reserve drum bail outs insurance is not counting the Wells Fargo the Bank of America. The the chase will but some small frigging citizens bank in Jacksonville Texas wounds. And they'll be what what happens when the Dow business small restaurants in the area they also the ones that holding certain accounts. Guess how. It's GonNa hit the this is gonna hit from the bottom up but what they don't realize the lighting up to fuse under under the assets of people that are about to lose everything loses. Its chance to get out of the corner will go to you and they the saying earlier man when you start getting cornering people and you start talking about people who have nothing to lose the whole goes rats man they creating millions not thousands day creating millions of rats of all colors of all political leanings of all religions haven. We are the ant farm. And I've said time and time again Let's turn the ants arm. The the worthy elites ant farm was turned into a Hornet's nest Japanese it's the murder Hornets. Don't making these decisions. They smart but they're not necessarily wise. There's difference between wisdom and being smart yes and realize man. Their editorial massive can be reached with populous and they pushing forwards and this is Mike no populous. Yes we We are soft and by luxury life. We assault we are forgiving. We are wissies. We ARE FRIGGIN ALL. But you take deep down each of these soft individuals. Even in skinny jeans has his bottom line. Well that's point. Nothing else will matter. He's going to go your low. What fuck this? Yeah Yeah. It's it's got to be people just get. How did you? You saw what was going on in Hong Kong just a few days ago. We've Hong Kong was an hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of thousands of people because China's announced they're gonNA take it back right and the people are losing their shit losing their shit as they should be. That's what we have things that go bang bang massive numbers of Patriot. It only took four percents. The American revolution four percent. What do you think happens with that with that sunny with those those new who resumed Protests there in Hong Kong and the new like. Hey No were you know. How long do you think that plays out? You know what I've been to Hong Kong and I know a little bit about the Chinese culture and here's the problem with the Hong Kong Hongkong Menu Way is America of the Far East. People are soft people have lived in luxury and seen in that region outside of Japan Singapore. And guess what else. They are alarmed and Chinese government. Doesn't it's not so scrupulous about you know human rights violations. They been a sensitive about it. They don't give a flying fuck about world's opinion about it or whatnot. Dan Stand strategic importance of Hong Kong then to stand the emotional importance of Hong Kong spot as the worldview goes They will take on. Kong will not get out out of this in a good way when with the these. We've talked about it forever. The one one road that's The almost the new America the new hegemony going through Asia I think they have to lock it all down because they don't want any rub to think back to the Clinton administration in them giving satellite technology to the Chinese to that Chinese corporation. If you remember correctly he gave the okay for that. Not gave them the ability to shoot down other satellites a US president a sitting us. President did that and sold that technology or enemy. That's the kind of Shit that led to this year. I mean you know China's we would be well advised to recognize that China is not our enemy. China is the major player in the world that we either have to learn to play or roll over and be bitches because going to war with China is not an option. No Be Realistic. It's simply not an option. One I look at agenda. Twenty one and one of the goals of agenda twenty one is a global army you know. They've got a massive hardware over in the South China Sea area. Both countries I it look if I'm GONNA lead us and I think like my enemy and these fuckers. Do you think like this. I'm thinking okay. We're GONNA have the massive war in south China Sea. We're going to get rid of the as much of the American and Chinese militaries can have one blooper may be linked to run a virus if you had co Corona virus you longer enter the US military. So you see the system of getting rid of a bunch. Caller million extra veterans up. Go get go all them killed. You see what I'm saying. The rest of the nextwave can't get in with having had grown of buyers. There's nobody laughed because almost everybody got it and then move in the one world on Bro. That's that's the jigsaw puzzle coming together on that side. It's you know it's it's really hard to predict where it's going as far as spot. Our our our game with China is but you know it's it's for us. It's irresponsible for a lot of people that go like it's time to fucking just knew those guys come on come on. Let's be realistic year yesterday. Not Sophisticated he has not strong day. Have enough to end this shit for one. Just like just like mutually and I hate to keep saying this but just like mutually assured destruction in the eighties. They're not gonNA. They were never going. GonNa do that then. That was just that looming possibility. But even now everybody's so economically interdependent. Everything whether it's whether it's covert action propaganda biological stuff. Everything is asymmetrical now. They're not going to scorch the earth like they've been doing all the limited warfare is good business. Unlimited nuclear warfare is not a business. It's the end of all of their income. Yes going to do that but they will keep that they will keep that threat looming. You know what I mean of North Korea's everybody but that's like it's almost like right now I don't. I don't know if you guys heard this but you know I looked up. Article came across it and Israel announced building the Third Temple which obviously includes taking down the locks mosque. The second or third most holiest the building in all they were building are different site. It was a bit woke up for okay. That's some that's some ballsy stuff right there in terms of pro prophecies. They don't want to wait for the Moshi Act. They got their own little messiah. Going on there they called the motion. And it's the leader the jesuits just died. The black vote just broke down. All this happened in the Middle East with Israel. Just you know a lot of my views would be extremely appreciate it and and then would be colds all kinds of names that I'm anti Jewish all that stuff but I have some storm us about about the leadership for the leaders absolutely. Yeah so we're not the people. The leadership is when again sucks prequalified that because as we're talking critically about North Korea Chinese that the government were not anti North Korean Anti-chinese we criticize the American government. We're not anti-american. And that's what's kind of weird when you get into that realm it's like Ooh you must be anti wow this criticizing the government and certain policies. Like wow bit of an overreach but it happens. It happens a lot of people. Jump the shark like that Bro. Ad Looking for their shortcut to thinking. And that's unfortunate. Because you know it just prohibits you from really kind of saying things that are actually happening in history but they kind of weaponize it and make it seem like well. You're bad if you touch that third rail or this third rail but you know that's why it's beautiful to do shows like these and talk to people like you. Patrick talked to people like you. Sunny cut through that nonsense that bullshit. There's a lot of nonsense bullshit. Then you know it's it's it's it's become tiring becoming. I don't know there's so much virtue signal the amount of course was actual signals fucking. Just phenomenal you know. It's it's driving down in the city seeing these douche wagons with muzzles on their face and the car by themselves wearing a fucking glove I and you just you just want to bat start fixing the overall like Q. Level of humanity. But you can't do that because we nation of laws everybody. Everybody got their own safe space. This was the the the actual safe-space stuff going on in colleges with the millennials was just conditioning the planting seeds right. Now everybody's got their own safe-space and I look at people. Actually standing on the dots stores just go wild man I in stores. They sat on the outside of the store and those dots on not under the owning and get rained on the rain. Still Yeah it's it's so sick like Pavlovian like training. I WANNA be apocalypse. I WANNA I wanNA throw him a beach ball and having trained see like or do a little dance. That's almost what the fuck it is due and so ridiculous it A lot of people have been conditioned to know and conditioning through the to the to the mass media many ways to social media. Look look look at the stupid bitch. What's her name? Alicia Milano right off with her knitted mask on her. How can you be she? She's talking about virtuous signal. She's her in the foreground with her two kids in the back in her husband's like keeping everyone safe like you fucking tick tock goalless. She's got to be paid by the Soros or almost wonder. There's no way I could actress. I had a crush on her when when I was younger Duke All. She was haughty. She used to be the same thing for a minute. There's no doubt about it but but seven Jake but besides the I ever. I have a friend who dated her. That said She had a box blew up in her left. Nipple is numb took but even that back so jeff. I want to ask you guys. This is pretty interesting concept in it actually is true. I looked it up and I researched it a little bit but the decalcification of the land that is that is what I've been saying for many years is that there's a difference in the heard. Because some people's pedia glands are are calcified right so hydrochloric win. What color is that pill well hydrochloric when you guys froze on me? But I'm sure off. So let me tell you. Hydrochloric a red pill and decalcified gland It's part of the treatment for decalcification of land. So is your wake up with people like you and me to recognize what's going on in the world to have a Belgian find it. Do you find that. I'm Sarah. Do you find that interesting. That last week the. Who suspended studies on? Hydroxy chloroquine as a couple. What a week ago. Yeah knowing that has been in practice for an malarial drug and been using it for almost ten twenty years in now that they finding out it's working and it's not gonna be in the same line of the vaccine. They shut it down even though we've talked about some of the parent companies who are majority owners in companies that produce in manufacturing distributor drastically chloroquine. Is this company called black rock which you need to check into it is fascinating that the WHO is shut it down as a possible treatment when it's been working forever. Well here's interesting factor hydrochloric. I believe you can get the full treatment for watch ten twenty dollars dollar the new treatment that they wanted to show promise I delete. It's a thousand dollar a pill because it's going to be patent at of course but that's just a treatment for the conclude right. I mean covid. Nineteen was the floating. The back you guys especially in Europe especially in some other places. They will implement a ban on travel unless you have been vaccinated or the AB or the APP there floating around after that. Everyone's supposed to be downloading user to be. Dat Dat Dat can be debated because someone will go like well. My phone is unlocked into doesn't accept these I they're gonNA go straight up to pretty much mandated vaccination They certainly not gonNA suspend any or extend any research into it. As with most vaccine is five seven ten years. We're probably get by the middle or beginning of next year. Which means they had already they already had patents on the virus. That could file. She had hands on the protein that was attached to the virus. So they've had the vaccine already laid out just like all the bills all the bailouts. The stimulus bills the trillions and trillions of dollars. Those were written long before this happened. Also they were sitting on the shelf and ready to go they they were attached to fucking slingshots So I think it's going to be interesting reset that sends because what you're going to see is There's GonNa be some choices to be. Made those going to be some this thinking about it for a lot of people that do business for a lot of people that have families what they're going to do. They're going to posture and go like no. I'm not gonNA take that one stab the shoulder because I cannot go see my my parents or with mad they will take that staff to the shoulder and whereas Allen who had said on a recent everyone somebody show. We have the right to plunge a needle into your arm. Oh that's very hyperbolic fog my that. I have a right to plunge something else into you. What is it called hot lead? I prefer cold still. Yeah well or the or the takes under the fingernails type thing. Here's the thing though that people think that we're the crazy ones for talking this way and look we're halfway I if it gets that bad eh. Protect our families. We're GONNA do shit that we have to do right so that's just the way it does but I just I don't know man. I was going somewhere with that and I got down to twenty eight. Most reality has been inverted. We keep saying over and over again when you can allow criminals criminals to be released. And you're literally arresting people for engaging in the right to life. Liberty pursuit of happiness opening their businesses hairstyle style hair salons or whatever the Australian woman with her little child. Yeah that to me is like this. I was Brian Sample. Why no nation should allow themselves to be fucking disarmed period. Peer that we are living in absolutely crazy times. A man sunny position because shot at worker. We track you down brother. We're going to get you back on here a couple of months and update as this madness unfold. But we're how can people Follow you and see what you're up to 'cause you your facebook lies do that's fire rate there. Yeah I haven't been to facebook jail lately which is Kinda surprised. Oh you're slipping assassination of me or something like that but Jeff Zucker. Do you your phone. Go down to block on facebook and type in. What is it a fact checker fact check and block every one of those days? A lot of them don't like eighty of them out there. Yeah but I've been doing better. I've been doing better because of that but I have my website Sunday. Pacheco's DOT COM I'm obviously under the name site. Zikos in Solis Zikos on facebook and instagram. Now four training concepts on On the Youtube and all that stuff so I'm relatively easy to find one of those controversial guys that speaks with crazy action and when you get pissed off Russian you know what pat if you hear me. Say Super Blad It's not good. It's mental note and note everyone if you're out there doing with sunny and he says that protecting her sunny it is always a pleasure champ. Always a pleasure by the love. You guys man. I obviously check back down the road here. See how everybody's doing I hope you and your lovely wife and the family are safe man. Enjoy those beautiful grounds. You're out there down in Texas. Hit upside if you WANNA get your training on pieces so much love guys. It has always been Been Fun peace in love or fell was absolutely Jala guys also Maryland. Thank you guys so you stay safe down there buddy buddy. Right both taconite.

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Bundyville Live Q&A, July 2019

Bundyville: The Remnant

1:00:33 hr | 1 year ago

Bundyville Live Q&A, July 2019

"Hey bundy villa listeners. It's leah and ryan in july. We recorded a live event in portland oregon. Where people could ask questions we sat down with opioids dave miller to talk about the show so we decided to share that with you today less than a month after we were least bundy ville season to a couple of weeks after this event there is a horrific shooting shooting in el paso texas and a walmart that left more than twenty people dead the ideology behind that shooting carried a lot of the same anti immigrant white supremacist overtones that we talked about in the show and a lot of people have been using this show as an opportunity to talk about those issues in maybe have some uncomfortable conversations about racism racism and white supremacy in america the need to happen right now. We hope by sharing this live event with you. We can help further those conversations and we also give some insight into how how we made the show so here's dave miller episode one of seasons to it starts with a bombing in mecca. Can you just give us the short version of what happened happened. Yeah so july sixteenth to july thirteenth two thousand sixteen a man named glenn jones went up to the house of his former former boss a guy named josh cliff and he put some bombs in the house he put some bombs in a car that he backed up next to the house and the thing blew up so basically clearly start they're trying to answer the question of why he did that and what motivated him to one of the things that i still didn't totally understand even by the time it got to the end of the last episode where there are some closer to answer in terms of what really happened in law enforcement has ever said publicly about what happened. I'm still sort mystified by why you guys went there. On such a hunch that there was more this or there was almost no information about it and yet you took the trouble to go all the way all the way down there. Why so it was a story. I'm a freelance journalist so i have kind of just a long list of stories that i'm always thinking about or that. Catch my eye for one reason or another and this bombing i'd heard about in an interview with an expert on extremism and she was just basically curious why someone would blow themselves up and and it caught my curiosity and enough to read the news that had been reported on it and the one thing that really caught me that made me think it was worth actually getting ryan ryan to come with me and go. There was that in a journal that was found in the bombers r._v. There was note referring to avoid vinnicombe. Who we know was the rancher that was killed during nakashige in the mail your national wildlife refuge so yes it was totally a hunch and we did have many conversations before we went if it was like too big of a hunch punched but in the end it proved to be what we thought it was. It paid off at a certain point. You were successful in getting a whole cd full of photographs graphs of the bombers trailer full of bomb making stuff as well as a bunch of photos of this journal and it seems like you sort of went crazy staring at at these photos. Can you describe your mindset as you were pouring over these photos yeah so i think there's a line in the podcast we put in like maybe i was just obsessed at that point and i think that ryan and peter would also agreed that. I was definitely obsessed with it so i was trying to figure out what was in this journal. Why would someone refer to avoid finicky but then why would that person also go and blow up the house of a relative of lavoix finnigan and so i got the photos and as somebody who enjoys writing and reading narrative journalism i really wanted those textural details of what this person's house looked like before he blew it up and what i found was this you're not the c._d. Of images on a saturday just a random day in may and it was a it was a crazy thing to to sort of behold and see this person living only with no furniture and only around bombs. What was it like when i mean they were in a movie. It would seem like one of those scenes that just that is completely unbelievable ebel but seeing that there was writing that was the reverse of it that had sort of bled through on a page and that was all you could see. What was it like when you realized that there was actually something there that you could eventually read yeah. I was sort of one of those moments that like i mean i think anybody who does journalism for any amount of time knows how much time you waste hoping for a moment like that so i'm just looking at these things in thinking okay well. There's some things on the backs of those pages. If it looks like some things when it actually panned out to be like the thing that i had been waiting for to prove that this all kind of came together yeah it was like it took my breath away and i actually was recording according because i wanted to tell ryan about it so i'm like oh i should probably record and act like i know how to make radio and so i did and i gasped on the on the recording. It was funny when we brought that to peter and robbie to producers who worked with us and they're like nobody's gonna believe this actually happened guys. They're they're going to think. This is fake so we had to write. It and we're like no really this actually happened and when i first got the cd i i was it was it was weekend like ryan was living his life. I was supposed to be living mind but really are just looking at pictures of a former spouse and i was sending him. Messages is and just said oh. This is nothing like we got a bunch of garbage. I think the exact words used was lame yeah. I thought it was lame like but then i just you know my husband was taking a nap. I didn't have a lot to do so i was just looking at these photos and then the more i looked at it the more the story kind of presented itself. Do you think that did the two of you have looked at these journals in this case through photos more than law enforcement. Yes so the long story of trying to get this c._d. Of photos was a relationship that i seem to strike up with the folks who work for the city of kingman arizona and and just kind of pushing them for more things asking oh thanks for sending that. Can you send me this and when i got that cd and saw that there were these these notes that they didn't send which should should have been a part of my foia request. I called an evidence packet kingman and said. I can see that there's other notes here that i didn't get but i can read them. Would you mind just sending them over so i have a clear picture and that was when i realized i'd overstayed my welcome with the city of kingman and he said no. You need to talk to the f._b._i. Like i cannot talk to you about this anymore. But is this just terrible. Police work or is this. A conspiracy seems like such the question to ask i mean i don't know we don't know what the f._b._i. Things what their investigation says they there is an investigation. That was the line that we have. If there's an investigation you know i think we make this point in the podcast is is law. Enforcement should be more transparent about about these things. There is a lot to learn here. We don't know what else is in the journal. There may be other things in there that are relevant to this story ed. They've decided not to share those given what you did learn about the suicide bomber. That's the phrase. I think the app fraser us news glenn jones. What extra questions do you have about the man whose home he bombed joshua at at the very least it seems on the notebook. The cloth was aware of a plan to blow up a building and potentially he was in on this plan. This plan never materialized but nevertheless us. It seems if we can trust journals that they talked about it. What questions do you have for him. I mean i'm just curious what the nature of their relationship was we. We know from people in town that they were friends at some point. We don't know what actually happened between when they stopped being friends and someone's home mm exploded. We don't know i would love to talk to josh klapper out glenn jumps and just here was this plan to potentially blow up a bill and field office his own there could be that cluff said this is crazy. I want nothing to do with this that that's that's one thing that and i think should be kept in mind. We don't know what ever transpired conversations happen so i want to know those conversations. Yeah i mean we know that it's according to share flee the sheriff who covers panetta and josh himself that law enforcement cleared him so they clearly did not think there was a connection there but i think you're right to say it's a raises a lot of questions about what their relationship was and how these ideas he has gotten glen jones's head before we met up here. I asked each of you if there was a clip from some moment from the seven episodes that religion are listed out to you that we were really proud of or that was really hard for some reason. I thought we could listen to each of them in the course of this conversation day starting with yours. What should we know before we listened to the part that you chose so this is from the second episode bonneville. I could have sworn we probably would have picked the same pick this clip <hes> ryan and i flew to salt lake city essentially to go and interview a man at a truck stop and that's what we did in the second episode of the podcast is about a guy china's bill keebler who has sort of been positioned by law enforcement is one of the most dangerous people in the patriot movement we went through his court records and saw a slightly. We different story about a man who was very paranoid but then was watched by the government and such an aggressive way and pushed into action. We just wanted to hear his side of things things so we went to the truck stop and we had a conversation at a certain point. That conversation turned which is this clip. He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories series so i asked keebler. Where's this going in his mind. Would shit hits the fan during the obama administration. If if he declared more slow rallied me rarely round me to central command post him. We'll go from there. <hes> we start operations at that point. <hes> <hes> that would have been shit hit the fan so different now. What's what's odd. Thank chop declares martial law. It would be more controlled manner. He's not come after patriots not militian no no she there you go pushing them racist. No then they got an able will say the people are angry when i asked him. If this entire world she'd had conspiracies government cabals. It's really just a veil for his racism after he spent in an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about sharia law invasions at the border how muslims are a plague in a christian nation like america. He tells me i'm off space to ask if this all really comes down to bigotry. Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas. He's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when awesome a different question. What do you think happens if the democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges abroad. What do you think happens with the patriots over all bets off just from what i'm hearing seeing internet. All bets are off with all better off. Take the wide. You choose that clip. I think you know when we're talking like behind the scenes the podcast. I thought that that was a really good moment. That showed why i like. Ryan and i are good reporting team in that we realized is pretty quickly. In this interview that i was going to be the bad cop and he was the good cop so keebler doesn't seem to like women very much especially based on his social title media but in person he was kind of pig and so for him he just didn't appreciate the questions. I was asking the questions i would ask he would answer to ryan and so in that situation i felt like well. If you already doesn't like me then i can ask this question. It's been sort of bubbling in my mind but but the dynamic that we were able to play klay there was able enabled us to get the answer of what the militia movement is willing to do and what they think which is really. I think the goal of why we went there is to understand like like with the more extreme people in the movement believe and we'll do ryan. You've probably heard that. I don't know twenty times at least at least yes what what was going through your mind this latest time the twenty first or the fifty first time whatever it is i have the same reaction you can hear me in the tape kind of nervously laugh about it and i. I still feel that way. It's like i don't understand what you mean by. All bets are off and it's a little frightening frightening to me that someone who has attempted to blow up a building is like all bets are off. Take it for what it's worth. Okay so i mean i i think leeann i both really struggled with bill keebler episode and like our relationship with bill keebler. You know this is someone i talked to a lot beyond what's in the show and just trying to understand. His mindset was very difficult. I mean i feel my take on. All bets are off is that it's a a barely veiled threat of massive violence. I mean is that maybe you maybe you're saying but who knows who knows. I mean this when we started this interview. He told us he won. The kung fu world championships and created his own style hyung-koo which i'm fairly certain is not true or accurate for months. It's not true so i. I don't know i mean. I think that's the hard you know kind of gets at this moment. I feel like we're in politically right now where it's like people go online and they say a lot of things and it's like what is real. What is just bluster and bill keebler is sort of bad in person. How would you describe the a reporting partnership that the two of you have built up. I think for me anyway. I think it's one of those is reporting relationships that that doesn't happen very often. You know i've worked with a lot of people. I've worked a lot of great journalists and i think leeann. I just sort of move on a fundamental level. Think about things a lot in the same way and it's really helpful like when we're in these situations like we can both kind. I predict like okay. This is what you're doing in this interview. This is what i'm doing. How do we maximize what we're getting out of this to tell the story the best way we can. What do you think you've learn from each other because you come from different journalistic backgrounds well i was gonna say i think that we have a kind of a funny working dynamic because ryan is very conscious that he's recording radio and he doesn't say everything that's on his mind whereas i'm not used to that so hence the swearing thing in the podcast so much i think learning. I think that we've just pushed each other really really well. I think that's the beauty of a good editor is that they will push you to the furthest of your abilities but we really pushed each other so there's so there's certain things like like with the keebler story that ryan was able to hunt down because of notch he had with other aspects. I was able to get and we just kind of encouraging and pushing each other. I'm curious the word extremist extremism it shows up in probably multiple times in every episode along with an awareness that these movements are becoming more mainstream in various ways. I mean among elected officials among easily found rhetoric and conspiracy theories and stories all over the place does that change the nature of of what we call extremism if it it becomes more common. I don't think so i think i think it's important for us to understand what what is normal behavior. What is not normal behavior and i think you know there's so much out there rhetoric kind of like what i i think they'll keebler now that like i said he started the embodiment of that in person like that's become so normal someone's like i'll just say all these crazy things that come into my head anybody anybody. I met these people two hours ago. Let me tell them about how i wanna run over muslims in the street of america so i think it's important for us to still say as a society society this is acceptable political discourse and this is too far like this type of talk leads to actual violence in america although the bill keyboards of the world have an easier and easier time pointing to all kinds of examples of people who they imagine are like them which <hes> which has a terrible normalizing effect. I mean in a sense that's that's one of the ideas it's threaded through. This entire. Series is is how how you deal with the ramifications of that when when people are getting all these these messages or kudos or votes that seem to say yeah you're on the right track doc yeah and i think that you know we maybe started the story that we started with really evolved with the keebler episode because that was one thing that ah we're driving away from the interview and like i just sort of wasn't expecting the rampant racism that we were hearing and that's when we realized you know yeah these things may be things that you hear all the time on the internet but that doesn't make them any less racist and so that's where the reporting took a real turn to recognizing thing coded language that maybe maybe used by mainstream politicians or people on facebook and really kind of investigating where that comes from so in terms the the overall shape of this these seven episodes that episode that you're talking about at that point. You didn't know where you'd you'd be going. You didn't know that you'd be focusing on match or the religious community marble country all that came leif dave dave bless your heart. You should work with me on a story because ryan was raised his blood pressure over the last two months of i'm doing this because there was no road map. I mean in my mind but i mean i knew that would be a thing and i really knew the next thing that i wanted to talk about. Ah that the one hanging thread that i felt like we didn't pull hard enough with the first season was what the sticking power of lavoix finicky him as a martyr was so we knew pinnacle we knew lavoie so basically planned a trip where we would go see bill keebler and then go to panetta and then go see the voice family and when we came came back from that trip in fact when we were just waiting to fly home we basically outlined what we had and realized you know we could go kind of in these different directions sion's with it. I also knew that having lived in eastern washington and for so long of being a reporter they're having reported on matt shade that there is a possibility that we can introduce that into the into the season but beyond la voie in pawtucket. We really didn't know ryan. Let's hear your choice for some moment from the seven episodes that stands out to you you want to introduce it sure this is towards the end of the series and we're starting to coalesce ally the ideas that we've we've been discussing in the season including conspiracy theories like we've been saying i think conspiracy theories or something that are around a lot of people and as we started to get towards the end of the series we thought how can we drive this idea home for listeners and and leah wrote this really great passage in her print stories which you should go read and i just love this passage and there was a sort of moment where where it all came together where once conspiracies were stories. Someone had to seek out came to a person on a flyer militia meeting gene gun show now. They're commonplace n- everyone's home. I don't believe it was just freddie mae and freddie mac or even the oil companies they come through facebook feet twitter posts youtube videos. Addenda twenty-one usually entered community through additioning process. You don't click on them. You already know it's crazy but maybe one of them you do and so two thousand other people and <hes>. I just watched the f._b._i. Foot then video on guns lead you to a fake news story about firearms regulations tactfully are men pointing guns cue have been behind which leads to agenda twenty one long standing the gender calendar ryan president trump series about the new world order score. You need something there speaks to a certain pain it feels familiar and you agreed just enough posted to facebook friends like it feels good. She just keep posting things like it because there's a conspiracy theories aren't fringe anymore. They're noise. Smith all got most to drowning out there poster brother-in-law sharing their families liking sharing and none of those people consider themselves members of the patriot movement then number takeover wildlife refuge but they're indulging the ideas that have led to instances of finals so fringe ideas had this pipeline in daily life and from time to time those ideas get in the wrong person's head and turn violent in the world reacts but it's too late by then. I just want to give a quick shout peter for br who's here tonight. This was an idea. I mean he is writing is fantastic and at the last is minute. Peter offered this idea of like hey semi bunch of conspiracy theory videos. I have an idea i wanna try and it's just to me like that. Segment is such a good piece piece of radio of like projecting the idea that we're talking about of all these conspiracy theories are around us all the time and it just starts to take over what's going on in it. I don't know i hear here that and it's like my chest gets tight on this terrifying so to me. The other part about that is it puts puts it on the listener. It says this is something we all do. We just sort of ignore it or it's around us and we don't say anything and in a way we're all complicit in that and i thought that was really powerful to put it on the listener and say hey you have a part of this. That is is really important. So the i remember have such a bad memory that i have no idea this was even when you were producing season one or season two but one day i was walking out <hes> <hes> through our lobby after the show i think and you were walking in to do some recording for for one of your seasons and you remember you said something like man. Audio is hard uh-huh but you've done. I mean obviously you've won awards that there are thousands of people who who are really really really engaged by not just your printer but your audio journalism. What has it been like to become to add this new arrow to your quiver her. It's really exciting and fun. I've always loved when i was a kid. I used to make radio shows on tape and stuff like that. I used to host a heavy metal podcasts on a community radio station in spokane but i thought that was sort of like the extent of my radio ability it's it's. I think it's really cool to be able to add add that into your tool belt of journalism because you know i'm not so blind to the world is that i know i write very long. Stories and people blood very short attention spans including myself so to be able to present what i feel is really important. Reporting in two different formats i think it's in front of two different totally different audiences and makes them people wouldn't engage with the print stories fueled justice invigorated by it. There's no way i could have have done it alone. Though and for me to even produce a single radio story by myself would be impossible for me. Do you feel feel like there are limitations that you feel in audio that you still sort of rail against well. I mean i think i have you. You know the swearing problem. You can have great. You're some kind of warning have fantastic florid warnings before i there's no way around that it feels. It's actually feels like a really exciting medium to me. In a past life i wrote a lot of fiction and i would do sorta punk rock fiction readings and stuff so i had some ability to read my work but so no i think i'm actually see it as like a a huge blank canvas in a way that maybe long form journalism isn't i want to turn to questions of safety and security in lavoix finicky episode. I think it's that one when you're watching film in salem you specifically you you get called out as as journalists and you point out that there is an armed guard sort of hovering over you during the screening of that film to what extent are the people that you're reporting on writ large aware of you or this team team and the work you're doing. I mean that day. I'm not sure that everyone in the room would have known who we were. Ryan unfortunately had headphones and a microphone which it just sort of telling. I saw that as being kind of called out like hey everyone in this room. This is the person that produce this season of bundy ville that we don't like ah group the guy hovering near us with a gun in a holster i mean it just feels like an extension of the bluster a lot of times of the militia movement right but my challenge is always you know i'm not going to be scared away like it's my duty to report on these things and also my constitutional rights so i'm not going to be scared away from it. That's different from not being scared sure yeah i mean i think we've had several conversations stations. Some you know fairly heated conversations about whether or not it was safe for us to go to marble at the end. That was something i was really skeptical about what we heard only awful things and it presented the exact opposite of what we heard which i think was a good lesson for us as reporters to say okay. It's it's our job to figure out the truth and we'd only been told that we needed to wear flak jackets to go there and we did most certainly did not yeah yeah i mean i think there's calculated risks in any type of journalism of who can you trust who who is is actually a threat leeann. I talk a lot about which people within this movement. We consider dangerous which people we consider big talkers thor's. How do you make that assessment. I think it's a person to person basis. I think we do a lot of research on people before we meet anybody of. What is their background. Do they have a history a criminal record of violence for example for bill keebler. You made the decision together -gether to go to a denny's truck stop. This is a man who the f._b._i. Thought was dangerous enough that they spent tons of energy of trying to convince to try to bomb something so they could arrest him. I mean i think we looked at his court record and he did not feel particularly dangerous to us. I guess we also talked to his attorney but i do recall a very specific moment that i was at my parents house the night before and i said hey yeah tomorrow. I'm going to go to salt lake city. What are you doing. I'm going to go interview. This guy tried to blow up a building. A truck stop and the wide is that i was met with was like it's okay. I'm not going alone and i do think that that is one benefit of reporting in pairs is sort of realizing that maybe it's not a great idea to meet with someone and always having a foot in in caution chan i guess who worries the two of you more bill keebler who was convicted of after a big f. b. i. operation for his part in what he thought was a bombing with building or republican state representative match shea of washington who has been elected six times now uh in eastern washington match yeah. That wasn't a hard number. I'm fine with that. I'm not okay with match. Remember when a couple of things i mean we see the power of words said by powerful people that that people pick up on those things repeat repeat them and and believe them so i think having a position of power makes match a particularly threatening person listen. I also have just firsthand experience so the one part of the podcast that i did do by myself was go to this gun rally in spokane where i used to live and had ah pretty intense experience of talking to match and realizing that he was gonna film me which is fine as journalists. I have nothing to hide but it was it seemed as like like an intimidation tactic and that freaked me out so yeah i think he's he's a he's a person to pay close attention to and he has a lot of people people around him who will do things for him or you know i mean there's many stories have come out about threats that they've made in in private groups groups that they're in so i think dealing with bill keebler. He's one person who we had conversations with beforehand about what we're gonna talk about and we knew what we were getting into with with match a. We don't know i mean. I don't think match personally is is a threat. I don't think magic he's going to do anything to me but i don't know who's around him or what they think of us and i think it's also the the thing with matt shea is his like sort of incessant hasn't campaigning for this idea of the state of liberty far far outside of his district in recruiting people in hearing some of the words that his own staffers offers us at one st of liberty event. A woman said you know we hear that it will be either blood or liberty state and he's not condemning those things being said so so so yeah. I think that there's a lot of evidence to point that that people around him are not safe people. There was a an incremental bit of news from the washington. Russian has representatives this week about him. Can you give us a sense for what's happening there yeah so based on some of our friend jason's reporting there was a group of text messages that were released that were with matt shea and other friends and colleagues of his talking about violence against liberal darrelle protesters in in one of those tax match shea offered to survey all those people and background them so he's being investigated now now for those text messages and what his role is in that conversation <hes>. Let's listen to one more clip and this is actually with matching. This is from his podcast. Liam was a podcast or before you were and this is from a trip. He took to marble country for for the folks who haven't heard it yet. Can you just explain what what marble country is yeah. So it's a religious community. That's very about twenty miles miles from the canadian border between caudill and northport washington. It's a community that was founded in the nineteen ninety s by a pair of people a a couple of country singers that were were formerly a part of a christian identity church which is white supremacist ideology. I i won't go into it but they formed this community to be what they call a covenant community where you essentially pay part of your salary to the community and you you do things and live in the way dictated by those leaders that set up the community so we're going to hear from matt shays interview with these twenty something and a group of twenty. Somethings who are practicing some kind of christian youth militia. Tell woah everybody out there in patriot land what is team rugged. What are you guys doing so team. Rugged is basically a school of learning for young men to give them all the foundational learning and skills that they need to be effective in christian warfare when the biblical basis for war came out. She said the document was no secret said it was notes on a sermon he'd heard and now here's some kids who sound like they've heard the same sermons which made my ears perk up and got me wondering what kind of preacher was giving sermons advocating for war and debt killing all males shade just a mouthpiece helping push all these radical ideas mainstream. I love affect guys look like almost an acrobatic special forces team out there today. How long practices i sit on this off of a special forces when i looked into who is teaching these kids about christian warfare and found that the pastor marble was the head head instructor so eastern washington was going to become a fifty first state christian homeland populated by members of the patriot movement. Maybe marble country st would be its command center. What would it take. Do you think to de radicalize those. It was twenty year olds. I don't know maybe they'll listen to bundy. Villain see that there is a wide ideology that that people are drawing from two to teach them these things this idea of war in the name of god and killing people in the name of god is isn't that what they've signed up for yeah yeah but a lot of these kids you know grew up with this so they really don't know any different and i think that you know in stevens county. There are plenty any of amazing wonderful people conservative liberal whatever but but what we've captured here marble is this is this place that's that's kind of peddling ideology. That's just based in the regents problems with hate and they don't know that because because because people make excuses for it i think i think that that's one thing we've seen in. Some of the reception of bunny villain stevens county. Was you know we're not bad. People in these people aren't racist. They're not using these buzzwords that we think about that. Racist need to use wearing hoods anymore so so. I think that you would hope hoped that they would here. Maybe something like this from the outside and realize like wait. I got to take a step back and see what what this whole christian warfare thing really is all about you yeah yeah i mean and i think it's also important for people within these communities to talk to folks who may be going down this path and say hey wait a minute. Let's talk about this. What does this mean what what is it christian warfare mean. Why are you thinking about this. You know i think it's there are several people that we highlight in the podcast who live in these areas who were brave enough to stand up and say hey. Maybe this is going too far. You know it's one thing to talk about how much she hates seattle and it's another thing to say there's a war coming and we need to prepare for it you in the last episode you do give kind of societal prescription for for better directions we could go in and it's an inclusive there the directions for all of us including things like less reliance on social media less sharing ring of conspiratorial b._s. Lessen the military <unk> militarized or secretive approach on the part of police more willingness to reach out to people who may have different ideologies than we do and and also more willingness to if we see something say something like what happened in in spokane to prevent a terrible bombing but when i looked at all of those different ideas i'm <music>. I'm not particularly pessimistic person but i feel like as a society. We're going in the opposite direction in every way we're sorting ourselves much. More polarized is to political way the military. The police is getting more militarized. We're relying more and more on on social media and as a society. We're sharing all kinds kinds of terrible stuff all the time. I mean all those things which seem like good directions we could go in. It seems like we're we're going in the exact opposite direction. This isn't a question so what what do you what do you do with that. If if if the advice that that you're giving thus as a society seems to be advice that as a society we are ignoring. The one of the big takeaways for me is like a i think that's what a lot of that. Last episode is me personally trying to recognize like this sort of morass of terrible that you describe in how how to deal with it and i think that what i hope people take away is that it isn't someone else's problem to solve. These are our problems as a society to solving. We can't say liberals need to do this or republicans need to do this. It's about maybe having conversations that are difficult. You know i have some lovely conservative people in my life that i would like to have a conversation with and maybe use bundy villas a place to start to say hey. Let's look at that community that you identify with and think about you know what the edges are and if you're okay with that so i mean i guess for me. It's just getting off. The internet and trying to have conversations with people is what drives my work. I would hope that it could help. Bundy ville is still the name of this podcast but but the bundy population of bundy bill season two is zero. There are no bundy's talk about it at all. What what are the famous bundy's doing these days. What's what's cliven up to. What's ryan to we don't keep up but last i heard i don't right they don't call i did speak to him and bundy in late last year about his sort of diverging with president trump over the caravan at the mexican border and <hes> him im- really kind of calling to the patriot movement for compassion and to not go the way that trump purpose was was talking and they respond to that they did not respond well no in fact. I think that in the print stories we talk a little bit about about that kind of moment with him and bundy and i thought well maybe it's just a good time for him to bow out. He got what he wanted from the movement and now he can say okay. I'm not cool with this this this rhetoric but again i guess last week he was sort of talking about maybe he was supposed to go on facebook about. Maybe we should go back to harney county so i think that and that was that was drunk on that fame i think and they will be for awhile yeah. I don't think they're gone. I mean cliven missile running his cattle. I can't imagine that the government is going to ignore that forever. I mean perhaps under this administration that won't that won't be an issue but i think i think at some point someone's going to say you can't continue to illegally run your cadillac on on public land. I have one more question but that means that we have time for a bunch of questions from you so as they're answering this last one. If you want to start lining up they will eagerly answer your questions as well leah you use say in the beginning of this season that you weren't sure if there would be a season two and and then you know things happen and you had to cover them or and you got to cover them. Do you know now. There's going to be a season three. I mean i didn't think that the end of last season i was kind of like hey ryan. Maybe there's more and he's like you're nuts. I don't think we should do that but there were a couple of these couple couple of threads had planned to do a story on the peninsula bombing when it became a very obvious part of bonneville. We saw that it was connected. I don't see see those connections right now. That would lead to a third season. However you know next year is twenty twenty. It's an election year. What bill keebler says as far as all bets are off like like if that starts to become a little bit more into focus. I would entertain the possibility of doing more but we don't have plans to yeah i mean i think i would god answer that question the same way i would at the end of season one is we don't have plans unless we feel like there's more to say on the subject. We're happy with the work. We produced houston. We think it gives a very broad and and full view of this movement right now so i don't know dave we've all right. Stay tuned. Stay tuned rolex. Take some questions or audience so in the podcast. You said that government vermont violence would lead to more violence from the extremists so if they start getting violent. What do you think a better response than violence is this i mean i think law enforcement still has a role to play in this. We talked a lot when we were when we were writing about this specific topic. We feel like for a long time. The government has not taken domestic extremism seriously and they they do a lot of ways have the tools to deal with this. They've dealt with it at its peak in the nineties after waco and ruby ridge so i think i think in that sense the government has a role to play in policing that type of violence hopefully before it happens in terms society though i think people from all benz of the political spectrum need to say loudly and clearly that violence is an acceptable solution to our problems you know we have a lot of disagreements and and that's okay. It's okay to disagree with somebody. It's not okay to hurt them because you don't like them. Yeah i think ryan's said it probably more eloquently than i can but i do remember an early stage of one of the scripts i had kind of written something about violence and we kind of tamped it down a little bit kun-bae but i do believe that we have this long history of the anti-government movement to look at it and see the you know. The violence of ruby ridge was than reciprocated with the violence of the oklahoma city bombing. Many lives were lost. Violence will only beget violence and so it's <music> on society. I think to demand creative solutions of of of what that is that we need to rise above that so he said it better than i did. Though i do rural development work in the west i and i never have the courage to have these conversations with the landowners that i work with so i'm interested in hearing your perspective on how you in how you think i think they they being the malheur refuge participants in their peers integrate the cognitive into this dissonance that appears that they're probably larger practitioners of socialism than we are here in portland and seattle and and by way of the bureau reclamation and the and the u._s._d._a. In the hundreds of billions of dollars that have been handed out. Were it not for that. Their communities would not even exist i mean i think that it's important to meet people where they're at and and understand that i mean it. You work in rural communities. You understand that working. The land is a very sort of personal relationship. You have and there's a lot of folks who feel disaffected and ignore it. It's easy to feel ignored when you live in an isolated place and you don't have have a big community around you. I mean i think you're right. I think that you know particularly public lands ranching the government does support a lot of that so i think it's just having conversations with people dead you know hopefully can eventually come into some sort of agreement on some basic tenants of what you're talking about before you try to advance or change. Somebody's mind you know. I think i think think finding that common ground and then talking about hey. Here's how i see this. Here's why this way. Let's talk about why you see it the way you do and trying to trying to bridge those gaps a little bit because it's easy for all of us. I think to to feel like well. They're never never gonna agree with me. Why do i even bother yeah. I think that <hes> in season one we talk a little bit about flip mine in this sort of need for <hes> be mixed use on the lands for hikers and ranchers to be able to get along and equally used the land because that's the thing with public lands. It's everybody's everybody's. I think that some of what you're talking about is i think there's a lot of people who feel like environmental regulations are just away to push them out of business so i think it's important like ryan saying to kind of forge these conversations and show that you know by taking care of the land you can continue tarantula and we also can continue to have hiking and biking and all the all the things that go with it so again. I guess maybe that's the takeaway from both seasons as like this need for conversation on every level into but i think we've also seen that in harney county that a lot of people have come together to really make vs agreements and meet each other in the middle of what happened with in two thousand sixteen with the mayor standoff sort of took everyone by surprise like whoa. We're handling this here. We we actually are talking so harney. County was actually a really good example of a place that was forging those relationships. That's a great segue to my question which is a culturally this patriot movement has arisen in the west and i see everything you've talked about in both podcast has been really a western phenomenon but there are there was the charlottesville protests. There is richard spencer who seems to be a national figure. Do you see this western patriot movement as unique and be do you see it connecting to more national groups. That's a really good question should because the patriot movement really is all over the country you know ohio main you saw people at bundy ranch show up from like several eastern states so so the patriot movement is really big. There's a couple of reasons we focus on the west one. We're here and we don't want to helicopter in somewhere else but there were also these these of events that showed i think kind of the way what makes you unique that sorry what makes the western patriot movement unique is kind of that idea india that brought people west in the beginning this sort of like leave me alone government and how that is evolved over time so i think between the events at the bundy ranch but even back to ruby ridge in the montana freemen standoff. There's always been this. I think i said in the print stories it's kind kind of been on the wind and the west this idea of standing off with the government and things like that so i think it just takes the western patriot movement just has a little bit of a different error to yeah congratulations on a great podcasts enjoyable the a lot of i think what you guys looked at. Was i mean it was kind of second guessing some other episodes like ruby ridge and waco geico and there are a lot of questions about how the government is approach things in a way that if we were to do it over maybe we would have a better way to do something and defused the situation. Do you think can you point to some things that the government could have done better here from your perspective or some places where you know doing it again. The next time might might work out better. I think we're all kinda relieved. There was only one life lost but in this standoff but at the same time there was a life lost and this disruption happened and there is this community out there that seems to feel feel lawless but they're not the laws. Don't apply to them and you did a great job of bringing that to the surface <hes>. Is there something now that the government can do differently or should have done differently in this situation. I think we actually had an interview at one point with greg greg bretzing who was the special agent in charge of the f._b._i. During the mau here standoff in oregon and we talked a lot about that about how things like what happened at waco and ruby ridge really did change the tactics that law enforcement took and that's why you saw the mao your standoff playoff for play out for forty one days. He's realizing that if they if if it appeared that the law enforcement was going anywhere near it they can have a shootout on their hands. Lives could be lost so really the way way out. Policy policy was was what they implemented. When those leaders drove away they go to the meeting john day. They pulled them over in a place with no cell l. reception so they couldn't call in a bunch of militias to help them. They didn't anticipate what will finish. The sort of measured voice at the standoff would blow through. Do you know try to blow through a roadblock and get out of the truck reaching for a gun in his jacket so i think that that was something they couldn't have expected with waiting them out. As long as they did. Yeah i mean. I think it's hard to to say exactly what the government could have done differently. I mean at o._p._b. We we covered the occupation from the moment. It happened. I would you know at the time i sort of wondered how how big of a group they actually had when they took over the refuge in hindsight we learned it was not very large at all so i think they're probably was potential to to stop that before. It became what it became. What did the government know what did they. What were the risk calculations that they were taking. I don't know i think the other thing they could have done. Differently was how they prosecuted the trial. I think the government thought they had a slam dunk case in thought. This was so obvious that they didn't have to explain why these folks folks were wrong for the things that they did and that completely backfired at the trial i believe so i think if they were going to do something different i think that's a very tangible thing they could have done. I think had the bundy's gone to jail had other folks who are leaders of this gone to jail. It would've sent a very very different message to this crowd afterwards. I don't know if this answers your question but to me it ties together the standoff and and we've learned in season two which is that in the case of roy finnigan. If if somebody is hell-bent we sort of later learned on being a martyr her and the way he acted it really seems like that then. I'm really not sure what the f._b._i. Or the state police. I mean obviously there were other issues with f._b._i. Not answering questions truthfully about what happened but but in terms of what finicky himself did if if somebody's hell bent on being shot by police. It's hard to see what they could have done differently in those split seconds in that sense i mean he wasn't a suicide bomber but but the end result a cousins so yeah that's interesting because because the evidence was there loboi wrote his book about a cowboy dizon issued off with lawn shoot out with law enforcement two for years before before the occupation <hes>. I just have to wonder if that was taken seriously or if you know we don't know with the f._b._i. Knows about everyone but were they really thinking about that book and taken in tandem with his presence and bunny ranch and his kind of war he was starting to wage with the beland in. I think this gets to the point where you making the in the podcast which is like you know. Law enforcement has one job to play in this but the people around finnick could've at any point said hey. This seems a little radical lake. You know they sort of indulge this and it was fine and boy. He's just getting politically active and now good better indifferent however you think about the voi- for his family for his kids they you know he's gone high as journalists. How do you balance the responsibility for bring to light these really fringe extremist movements with not giving them too much attention and like basically allowing these ideas to spread and gain more followers like where you strike the balance and how do you <hes> come to those decisions well. I think that just because someone says something crazy or has some extremist ideas. It doesn't make them a story. I i think you know i've had a lot of people ask me to write profiles of people that are considered extremists where i just said no. I don't i don't really see what about about what the purpose would be. It would serve maybe to actually make this person seem like a lot more important that they really are <hes> in the case of bill. Oh keebler that was a question we had. Was you know this guy has saying a lot of things to us that are actually we had to feel. I think a little bit obligated to report on that. Someone told us they would like to run people over in the streets with trucks and kill it felt like we should probably say something about that because he said it so. I don't know we had a lot of conversations about like which people in this movement because there for many people who rose to be sort of these minor characters in the trials they are do. We need to talk about them. Is it necessary to understand the ideology in the history history and the movement. I guess i think the other thing is it's about putting people in context and not the way you stop someone from. Getting a platform is to say here's what this means. Here's why they're saying this. Here's why this is important for you to know <hes>. I think as journalists where we get into trouble is leah sane where it's like oh. Let's have richard spencer onto talk for thirty minutes and ask you know c._n._n. Just recently got lambasted for letting richard spencer gone and talk about the president's tweets rightfully so that added nothing to the conversation. It gave him a chance to seem like he's the normal mainstream figure. I think it's important to put those people in context and really be clear with the readers or the listeners y. You're talking about that person. I think also just having the courage to call something what it is like. We knew that we couldn't just like have have bill keebler. Tell his story and be like do it do with that. What you will listener we had to say. This is racist like you. You have to be able to say that and that's not an opinion. That's just what it is so so. I think that just some people aren't willing to say that so could could. I just refocus her question because all this makes sense but but what's the reason to put them on at all. I think bill moreland puts it best in episode four. You know he's someone who has covered this for forty years. He says no civil rights organization in america would say you should ignore these people you know. Dan is not the solution to this. They don't go away they don't run and hide and now with the advent social media to have more of an ability to connect in discussed their ideas so ignoring it is not a solution and i think that we could give a good example of that in the season where we talk about the order this group in the nineteen eighties that was bombing synagogues and murdering people and law enforcement had no idea what they were dealing with and part of me has to think we'll we'll. How much could they have known had had media outlets thought. Maybe we should take a look. Get who this is so that's where you know someone like bill morlin someone i respect greatly because he's made a career out of saying you know i will look into the dark places and it's i'm not comfortable but people wanna know who's burning crosses in their backyard and why and for that reporting there's so much that is known about these crimes that are done will thank you all very much thank you. We hope you enjoyed loyd. The show and we know lots of you have other questions so feel free to reach out to us on twitter. I'm at lia underscore s. o. t. t. i l. e. and ryan's at ryan jay haas and if you haven't become a member of long res or o._p._b. Please do that now. Memberships help pay for investigative journalism like bundy and develop and you can also support the show by leaving a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts or just tell your friends so many of you have been spreading the word and we can tell so thank you.

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Target USA -- Episode 168: Surviving after the Mueller Report

Target USA Podcast by WTOP

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Target USA -- Episode 168: Surviving after the Mueller Report

"From podcast one coming up in this episode of target USA. The Muller investigation has been over for a month and a half and instead of the country coming to grips with the outcome. And starting the healing process the nation at least in Washington on the hill and at the White House themes to be more divided than ever there's talk of impeachment executive privilege constitutional crisis. None of which is good for the country. So how did we get here on this program? We'll take a look back five years. And what started it all? And how we're going to get out of the mess. We're in now. Coming up on this edition of target USA national security podcast. From WTO in Washington DC. This is target USA. Russia could render huge arm to this country North Korea's secret missile capable of reaching the whole of the United States dangerous. Terraced DC is repeatedly mentioned someplace they would like to seek an attack cyber criminal success. America as a target on its back and on this program. We investigate the threats the people behind them, the agencies fighting them and the impact on you. This is target USA the national security podcast. I'm Jay Jay green. The Muller investigation concluded on the twenty second of March, but the acrimony between congress and the president has only gotten worse and seems to have sunk the nation into a new round of divisive actions. The president on today may eighth asserted executive privilege over the mullahs report. There is talk on the hill of impeaching the president. There's also talk of a constitutional crisis, though, exactly what started all of this. Let's review what we've learned so far on January tenth twenty seventeen director of national intelligence. Jim Clapper revealed Russia at attacked the US we have high confidence that President Putin ordered an influence campaign in twenty six teen aimed at the US presidential election President Barack Obama new. Something was a foot in September twenty sixteen and he had some words with Vladimir Putin cut it out, and there were gonna be serious consequences. If he didn't see I a director at the time John Brennan warned his counterpart Alexander born Makovsky to stop the meddling, Mr. Portnov denied that Russia was doing anything to influence our presidential election. But according to a high confidence unanimous assessment from the entire intelligence community. Russia was interfering and it continued Moscow's influence campaign blended covert until just operations with overt efforts by Russian government agencies. State-funded media third party, intermediaries and paid social media users. The list of targets was extensive people and organizations associated with the twenty sixteen US presidential election, including both major US political parties Republican Senator Marco Rubio was one of those targeted and July of. Two thousand sixteen shortly after I announced that I would seek reelection to the United States Senate. Former members of my presidential campaign team who had access to the internal information of my presidential campaign targeted by addresses with an unknown location within Russia. And on November eighth after the election results were in vita MIR's zero Noffke Russian politician celebrated with champagne and intelligence sources say other Russian government and intelligence officials in intercepted conversations congratulated each other for achieving something. They had tried unsuccessfully to do during the entire Cold War. It's November fifteen twenty sixteen one week after the US election. I'm at a NATO conference in so feeble Guerrier the places been buzzing about Russian interference in the US election. One intelligence sources told me there are no less than one hundred forty English language fake. News outlets in neighboring Macedonia all for the purpose of manipulating voters thinking in the US back in Washington March thirtieth 2017 former FBI special agent Clint watts had noticed similar activity, and he told the Senate intelligence committee. He will leave those websites were linked to butts closer look in those Botts tied in closely with other social media campaigns. We had observed pushing Russian propaganda months before US intelligence believed. It was all part of a sophisticated Russian intelligence operation. They have an extremely capable intelligence service with exceptional cyber capabilities that they have repeatedly demonstrated. Not only against the United States, but against places like Estonia and Georgia Robert lit was general counsel in the office of the director of national intelligence. Former house intelligence committee chairman Mike Rogers said this was a part of an overarching doctrine in Russia. And so they took all of their cyber actors are combining them in this one information warfare center in an exclusive interview Virginia Senator Mark Warner vice chairman of the Senate intelligence committee explained how Russia went about its work specifically what Russia did they started a campaign where they hacked into private individual accounts, both parties accounts, Democrats and Republicans and Warner said the Russians made a decision to only release information palmful to the democratic candidate Clinton somewhere mid spring summer the second part of their campaign, which was even more sophisticated was using modern technology using the internet so called internet trolls, Mike Rogers explained to us how the process worked. Indicates is that have been public reported? They talk about twelve hour shifts and in those shifts. They're given a certain number of posts that they have to do. So they would go out and actively look at sites that they believed may being the Russians would believe would have some impact on people's opinion of either a person or an idea or policy. It took us about a year. But we went out and found one of those trolls working in the troll factory. His name was mcminn Diatta, and he confirmed exactly what Rogers had told us. He worked in a large building located at fifty five Sova Stena street in Saint Petersburg along with hundreds of other people during that twelve hour shift. They were trolls the large part of their objective and job description was to sway US public opinion through an elaborate social media campaign. It was a highly organized operation just. Like news operations all over the world had a morning assignment process. The work some say was mindless, but to him it was grueling. So he didn't last long in the job, then he left, but not before learning something critical about what some say was the most brazen attack on US democracy in history. You're about to hear all the extraordinary details in our exclusive interview. Manati? Let me start off by saying you have a very very powerful story. And thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for speaking out about your situation. You worked for the internet research agency. Is that correct? Yeah. That's correct. How long did you work work there? What years were you working there? I went two months two months of in December two thousand fourteen 'til Fabra two thousand fifteen why did you go to work there? Well, because I was unemployed. I second it was next to my house. And I was curious what's going on inside of this building? So what were you doing what when you went to work there? What were you hired to do? I was hired to do make the comments on the Russian political websites. What time did you go to work each day? And when you got to work what were the instructions, well, it was now to shapes by twelve hours, sheet shifts. I started at nine AM and finished at nine PM, which should write one hundred thirty five Commons at day. Two hundred signs in minimum each. So when I went there Nisa Joop was the main like that at the morning, you have the Email was all this links where should where you should to ride and the talk peaks and about what entire how you should too. Right. So you just need to play with the words. Okay. So you're ranking the same everywhere. So you work to full day old has okay? So how did you get to work? You said this was new your house. So you just walked to work. Correct. When you got there you said you were curious about what was going on. Once you got inside. What did you think where was that? What you thought was going on? Or was this something else? Well, I was disappointed, of course, because it was really ceiling of the factory and the factory from the auto or Kafka worlds because the joke was very monotone us. It was no any creativity in this job was very Mahane colorizing because nobody cares about your opinion and thoughts you just need to follow the line. Yeah. What you should dried, and it was always a supression and to pressure from their bosses because you should too right? Quick. And. Right that. So were you aware when you went to work, and you are doing this work? How important it was that it was a part of the Russian intelligence the Russian government operation to metal to interfere in the US election. Did you were you aware of that at the time? Well, then time the. The election. Has been just started Hillary Clinton just wanted to be a president. So it was not the main theme at the time when I worked, but what I worked. I tried to go to the Facebook department because they have been paid twice more. So my test was to write about the possibilities for the winning for the Hewlett Brinton. They started rated the time to think about it. So let me get through clear when you went to work there. You were doing just the regular comments every day. Basically, they would tell you what who to comment to what to essentially engage on. But then you got an opportunity to move to the Facebook department. That's is that what you're just saying to me as. Yeah. So how did that go? Well should. To write a sad about the Hillary Clinton. And they check how is your return English good or not? And of course, what are you writing about him? So I. I didn't bust. This. Excel maybe my English was enough. Not enough may be idled that the Hillary Clinton will be Coley. It will be the first he May President the first women Murat's assignment to write about Hillary Clinton becoming president was not arbitrary. It was designed to evaluate his suitability to work for the so-called Facebook department. He didn't know it at the time, but she would become a main focus of the work going on inside the internet research agency almost three years later outgoing director of national intelligence James Clapper confirmed as much on January tenth twenty seventeen when he briefed the Senate intelligence committee on the findings of their investigation into whether the Kremlin interfered in the twenty sixteen US presidential election campaign. We have high confidence that President Putin ordered an influence campaign twenty six teen aimed at the US presidential election. The goals of this campaign were to undermine public face and the US democratic process denigrate secretary Clinton and harm her electability and potential presidency. Putin and the Russian government also developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. Russia's spire to help President-Elect Trump's election chances when possible by discrediting sector Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. Moscow's approach all over the course of the campaign based on Russia's understanding the literal prospects of each of the candidates when it appeared that to Moscow, the secretary Clinton was likely to win the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency as a result of a number of factors, including what the intelligence community learned about Russian efforts the firing of former FBI director James Comey and the decision by former attorney general Jeff Sessions to recuse himself from any investigation on may seventeenth 2017 deputy attorney general rod Rosenstein appointed a special counsel that was Robert Muller and the objective was to investigate the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the two thousand sixteen presidential election, and according to its authorizing document the investigation scope included allegations. That there were links or coordination between the Trump presidential campaign and the Russian government. So today may eighth twenty nineteen a few weeks after the Muller report was released. We've learned by reviewing exactly what the Russians were up to how their campaign was essentially put together. And now knowing all that we take a look back at when it all actually started in the US. At about eight thirty AM on September eleventh twenty fourteen the office of homeland security and emergency preparedness in Saint Mary parish Louisiana began getting phone calls from concerned citizens about a disturbing message they'd received. Well, we started getting phone calls in regards to a message that came out. This toxic fumes hazard. Warning in this area. And it gives the time one thirty pm do Val Arthur junior is director of the office of homeland security and emergency preparedness, and he was on duty at the time and recalls the message that came in take shelter. Check local media, and then it has the name of company Columbia chemical company. Flirts c o L U M B. I a chemical dot com. That's the name that was only alert. Where did you get the message where did that alert? Come from. All I didn't come to us that we we started getting it from residents that live in the an area of the parish that it's not too far away from the plant. So they they saw this online or on their phones or on their phones these were text messages, and it was sent from telephone number which I'll. Gave you six four six five eight six five nine six zero. That was the telephone number of the text and it went out to several people. We had phone calls from people while we were making phone calls. We really didn't get a chance to get everybody. Name. We do have the name of a couple of people that that we're able to get the screen shots from and they call in complaints. What did they say? You said that which should they do is this legitimate. By that time the internet was blowing up with details about the alert on Twitter. A screen shot was circulated of the New Orleans times picayune website, which depicted an article about the explosion at one point an image of CNN's website turned up on Twitter with the photograph of the explosion, a Wicketpeer user created a page describing the explosion a public Facebook page. Title Louisiana news, posted an article describing the event even a video appeared on YouTube that appeared to be news footage of ISIS, claiming responsibility for the attack all of this was taking place while near-panic started to set in in Saint Mary parish and all up and down the east coast of the US. And while it was happening. Duval Arthur got on the phone and he called Columbia chemicals to ask what was going on. And they sent him a statement. Covered eleven two thousand fourteen. It says we have been informed by the community that a text message has been received by several individuals indicating a release of toxic gas from the Birla. It's B I R L A Merlo carbons Columbian chemicals in this Colombians, the Columbia, okay? Columbia Colombian chemicals plant near Centerville, Louisiana. The content as stated by the techs is not true. There's been no release of such toxic gas explosion or any of the incident in our Pacific. We're not aware of the origin of the text message law enforcement. Authorities have been contacted and are following up on this matter. And that is when the real panic began to set in the realization that all of it had been a hoax of epic proportions the spoofed websites, the faked screen shots of CNN and other newspapers and broadcasters, even the video showing a man watching TV all of it was elaborately staged executed, then the question was who did it. We asked do Val Arthur that question. So when did you find out what was behind the hoax who was behind the host? I never found out. Who is behind it? I was told that it was the Russians, but I go I I have no information on that. None whatsoever. Did you see the story that Adrian Chen wrote in the New York Times where you were quoted? Heard about it. I I never saw it. But sure you that. I don't know that the Russians or anybody else did this. Okay. Say we spoke to the FBI in Louisiana about it as well. We were told they get back to us so far. We haven't heard anything yet. As we dug further into the story. We learned that wasn't the only Russian attempt to manipulate the news in the US in late two thousand fourteen throughout two thousand fifteen we watched active measures on nearly any disaffected US audience whether be claims of the US military declaring martial law during the Jade helm, exercise Cass amongst black lives matters protests or standoff at the bunny Bundy ranch Russia's state-sponsored outlets RT Sputnik. News characterizes white outlets churned out manipulated truce. False news stories and conspiracies Clint wants a former FBI special agent currently a fellow at the center for cyber and homeland security at the George Washington University. He told the Senate intelligence committee on March thirtieth twenty seventeen Russia was very much involved in manipulating the news for their own special purposes, and he talked specifically about how they did it they generally lined up under four. Themes, one political messages, designed attorney democratic leaders and institutions to financial propaganda created the weekend. Confidence and financial markets and capitalist economies. Three social unrest. Crafted amplify divisions. Amongst democratic populaces and for global calamity pushed incite fear of global demise such as nuclear war or catastrophic climate change. So what's at play? Here is very sophisticated coordinated operation to attack the US from inside out in plain sight without us, knowing what was happening wants tool the Senate, how it unfolded from his vantage point from these over Russian propaganda outlets of wide range of English-speaking conspiratorial websites, which we refer to as grey Al it's some of which mysteriously operate from eastern Europe. And are curiously led by pro Russian editors of unknown financing. Sensationalizes conspiracies fake news published by white outlets. American looking social media counts, the hecklers honeypots hackers. Described earlier working alongside automated bots further amplify this Russian propaganda. Amongst unwitting westerners after the Justice department put it all together, they came out with a very strong case against the actors inside Russia with a massive indictment. Good afternoon on February sixteenth in a stunning announcement deputy attorney general rod Rosenstein revealed that thirteen rushing nationals and three Russian companies had been indicted by a grand jury impaneled by the special counsel investigating allegations of Russian government interference in the US political system, including the twenty sixteen US presidential election, twelve of the individual defendants worked at various times for a company called internet research agency, LLC a Russian company based in Saint Petersburg, the other individual defendant have Jenny victory which proposing. Funded the conspiracy through companies known as concord management and consulting LLC. Concord, catering and many affiliates and subsidiaries Rosenstein said the sophisticated effort which cost millions of dollars began in two thousand fourteen and employed. Hundreds of people. The case dragged on and when it was done the special counsel turned his results over to the attorney general William bar, and here's what William bar and to say when he released a report on April nineteenth twenty nineteen after nearly two years of investigation. Thousands of subpoenas hundreds of warrants and witness interviews, the special counsel confirmed that the Russian government sponsored efforts to a legally interfere with the two thousand sixteen presidential election. But did not find that the Trump campaign or other Americans colluded in those efforts after finding no underlying collusion with Russia. The special counsel's report goes on to consider whether certain actions of the president could amount to obstruction of the special counsel's investigation as I addressed in my March twenty four th letter the special counsel did not. Make a traditional prosecutorial judgment regarding this allegation. Instead, the report recounts, ten episodes involving the president and discusses potential legal theories for connecting those activities to the elements of an obstruction offense after carefully reviewing the facts and legal theories outlined in the report and in consultation with the office of legal counsel and other department lawyers the deputy attorney general, and I concluded that the evidence developed by the special counsel is not sufficient to a stab that the president committed and obstruction of Justice offense. So here we are the investigation is over the indictments are done. They're not likely to be any more rest connected to this. They're not going to be any trials it appears to be done the special counsel and said there was no collusion between the president or anybody in his orbit and Russia. The all. Also left open the question of whether or not the president obstructed Justice. Bottom line, the White House, and congress aren't speaking very well of or to each other right now. So where do we go as a nation from here in order to take a look at this? It's important to remember this is not a political program. This is a national security show. So in the process of taking a look at what's next force. A thought it would be important to get voice that could speak from all perspectives. And to do that we have a former member of congress, a former White House chief of staff, a former secretary of defense and of former director of the Central Intelligence Agency. His name is Leon Panetta raises. A lot of concerns about the state of our democracy. I see kind of confluence of of two forces that are. Are really impacting on the ability of our democracy to govern one is the constitutional challenge that's going on with the with the president. You know, the first certainly in my memory, and perhaps in American history of president who has taking a blanket approach to basically saying he will not cooperate with the Congress's authority to do oversight and our forefathers develop a system of checks and balances they made clear they didn't want power to reside. In anyone branch of government? And now, we have a president to trying to basically go against that whole system of checks and balances and all of that taking place at a time. When I think there there are a lot of political challenges going on in Washington as well with the partisanship and the gridlock and the dysfunctionality in. The sense of both parties able to work together on the issues facing this country. So there are just a a lot of dangerous threats to our democracy right now that should concern every when you were in congress, you're always known, then and still even now as voice of unity. Is there something that the Democrats can do a little differently or better or that the Republicans can do a little different or better to sort of bring this situation to a place where it's manageable? Well, you know, I tell the students at our Panetta institute that in a democracy we govern either by leadership or by crisis. And if leadership is there and willing to take the risks associated with leadership, I think you can you can work to avoid crisis. But if leadership's not there, then we're going to govern by crisis. And that's largely what we're doing today. So the real question, then becomes, you know, his leadership gonna step forward and to do that the leaders of both parties are going to have to take some risks. Because right now, both parties are in their political trenches. Nobody wants to offend their political base. And so no one is trying to reach out to try to see if they can't resolve some of these issues on the basis of consensus. You know, I've often said in my career I've seen wash. Washington at its best in Washington at its worst. The good news is I've seen Washington work. We're Republicans and Democrats are willing to work together. They always had their political differences. But on big issues, they were willing to work together, find consensus and get things done govern the country today that that consensus has gone, and as a result or a lot of issues they're confronting this country that are not being dealt with. So yeah, the answer to the situation is for leadership to rise to the occasion and say, you know, instead of fighting each other out in the courts instead of fighting each other out through impeachment process. How about if we try to sit down and try to arrive at some compromise here in order to make our democracy work. Mister secretary it occurs to me that you mentioned a minute ago about the both political science being in the trenches and neither one willing to come up at this point. And while this is going on that in between those trenches a path that seems to me that the Russians and others who are malevolent factors are taking advantage of that. Do you see that? Oh, I don't think there's any question that they see United States that, you know, for for a lot of reasons is able to govern is divided partisan in gridlock and view that as weakness and so Russia is going to try to take advantage of that China's going to try to take advantage of that our other adversaries Iran, North Korea will try to take advantage of the fact that for whatever reason we we have neither a president or a congress that are willing to work together in order to to govern this country and to deal with these threats. I mean, we are look we're the strongest nation on the face of the earth, both militarily, and I think he can omically but without leadership. Chip without the ability of our system of government unable to to come together to deal with all of these issues. We're facing in our democracy. We're we're going to undermine the strength of our of our democracy. And and that process is going on. Now. That's why this is nothing to just joke about this isn't politics normal. I consider this a real threat to the state of our democracy. That was Leon Panetta. Former secretary of defense former director of the CIA former White House chief of staff and former member of congress. The security of the nation is in a very tough place right now, but we will get through it. And we at target USA will continue to cover the issues events people and places and threats that affect this nation coming up on our next program. Whether it's terrorism anarchy, cybercriminals nation states intent on attacking the US we're going to cover any and all of those issues that are relevant at the time. In the meantime, if you have any questions or comments about the program, send me an Email at J green at W T O P dot com. That's the letter j the color green one word at whiskey Tango. Oscar Papa W T O P dot com. Also, follow us on Twitter at t- USA podcast. That's tango. Uniform Sierra alpha podcast. Also, we've got a new newsletter out. It's called inside the skiff. You can sign up at W T O P dot com. I'm Jay Jay green. And this is target USA. National security podcast. Hey, everybody. Check out. The Charlie Kirk show on podcast one the best selling author Twitter personality and founder of turning point USA fits down with some of the biggest news makers of our time to bring you the inside scoop on Capitol Hill and so much more. Download new episodes of Charlie Kirk show every week on apple podcast and podcast one. Now, stay tuned for the latest headlines from the Associated Press.

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Who Is That Clown - Hal Herring (Part Two)

Seek Outside Podcast

34:46 min | 1 year ago

Who Is That Clown - Hal Herring (Part Two)

"Um My daughter was with me and we had seen these L. far off and we thought they were heading for that passed. My son was with us. But he's he's he's way better than I am now and he disappeared and so we got up there above that pass and we were watching and there was a guy in orange with an orange vest down there and I said Damn who is at clown you know. He's like he wasn't. He didn't come in here from. Where did you come from? And we were dogging on this person who is sitting there. He too close to pass. He was doing everything wrong and my daughter was like. Yeah you think that clown is and of course. It was my son who outrun us? One hundred times faster than week ago and hit established himself exactly in the right place as though ideas. I just think of that all the time when I when I'm dicit on people that I run into you know because I don't want them on talking hunting now right Let's Kinda pull in a little conservation thing if this thing goes on for however long. Washington's closed some public land's Idaho's tried to say hey like unless you already have a Tag. Don't come here for. Spring Bear Turkey right What do you think you know an I? I went the last couple of years to Alaska. Salmon fishing love. Yeah Yeah And I plan on going a Caribou hunt this year which. I'm not really sure if that's going to happen either right. I mean if I if I have to go last gun immediately. Fourteen day quarantine. That's probably not gonna make it feasible thinking about the Idaho. Spring bear in Turkey was like. I don't know how you do it if you gotta show up in quarantine fourteen days before you can head out. I mean it's pretty boring especially when places aren't renting out hotels in so you griot tent. Yeah no maybe and then then. How do you prove that you've quarantined? But how do you think this is GonNa change like some of the hunting and fishing if this continues on through the fall I know from our business perspective? Sales have been strong for some of. That's yeah probably done prepping many. I'm sure a lot of people wish that they were more had practice a little more right. Yeah but at the same time. It's like what does hunting season look like. I mean I live in an OTC unit which sometimes is really hard to get away from people. You go you can go the most remote spot and find. There's eight people there that year. You know no mountains like any you guys all WanNa Pack Anelka from here. That's crazy right. But how's that going to change? I mean if there's if there's no real out of state hunters here yeah. I mean the hunting an and entirely different in this unit. Yeah I think that it's going to. I think that that the out of state thing is going to be with us for a while. I don't know if it'll be with us in November or October but hopefully not but if it is then I think we're just GonNa all have to make adjustments until this burn through There's some of that will also depend on whether people are all work because I notice a lot of people fishing right now around in remote places here and that that's because they're not working you know one on the back. I can trip a couple of weeks ago and there were a lot of people out there. Yeah Kinda surprised but I was like you know the they're saying hey it's okay to go for a hike and hiking a good thing to do or whatever and the like about half. The people really didn't hike that much you know they were relatively new to it so I mean getting people engaged. That's a good thing. Yeah it is. Yeah we had a guy run into a grizzly bear up into your day before yesterday. I guess and got got beat up kind of bad. And then he was out hiking and so that was kind of a big deal because he shot the bear with a pistol and then the fishing game common. They hunted the bear now and they finally they had to euthanize it because it was wounded. But I mean do like how do you deal with stuff like that? There's more people in the mountains. You know nothing good thing. I think that's just something that's like. That's okay like that's that's where we're at you know will. There's more people in the mountains in certain areas. I mean if the travel if if the if the tourist can't travel to the more destination places where I won't be as many people but perhaps the animals don't feel as pressured near as much out like yeah like the L. Were I live elk? Used to hang out in this one spot Quite frankly I don't want I don't want to sound like it wasn't extreme but I mean it was. You could guarantee there was Okinawan. If you're in shape I could hike into their in about forty five minutes or an hour. Right Good Yeah. Which was which was good but elk really. Haven't been there for about five years right and because one day I was hunting I was hunting season there and I looked down into that drainage and accounted sixteen people I was like all these people come from right. Yeah it was maybe eight years ago or something and now. I mean it's a rarity you see a few L. trickle just in into this wilderness area and that's about it most of them are hanging out in these hell holes that you know crazy to shoot women so yeah. I have question for you. What what do you think accounted for? The sudden uptick in people in that one spot A few things though I was guys like Stephen Randy right exposing style of hunting right and and and the adult onset hunting right. Yeah I know I know in my neighborhood. there's a lot of extreme more extreme mountain athletes yum and a lot of them. Probably you know. A lot of them took a punting probably seven to eight nine years ago right and started saying you know so. I think there's a little bit of a cross fit component because cross fit pushes more of a Paleo lifestyle. And then when when you get into Paleo it says no don't go to Walmart and get your burger yellow if you're if you can eat high quality salmon or quality game meat. That's a much better choice so I also think the other thing is social media right I mean you. You didn't use used to take a photo with your with your camera with your film camera. Yeah and you you you would just kind of would be your photo you. It may be it up and put it on your wall or if you're a photographer you would sell it but now everyone Kellyanne Basically take a photo and in two seconds. It's online where everyone's friends can be like. Oh that's awesome the done a lot of times. There's location information in there as well and like I've thought like Two years ago Nathan. Who WORKS FOR US? Lives in Tennessee and I did a hunt and we had an agreement beforehand that we were sharing. No photos showed anything of distinction. Yup and if you took a photo you needed to put the photo on your phone and take a screen shot and then share that. Gotcha no so you so you tried to get rid of any location information right and then you know a lot of. It's good stuff. I mean like I know Nathan and I that year we were there and it was. We had a really good trip But that year. We're like wow. It's gotten a lot busier around here. Yeah the guys bill bhanot below me I mean I saw the dudes GonNa be. Ha Hat right. Yeah so I mean I'm like the D. engagement and all that stuff is good right. Yeah But it just also has a tendency to kind of FILL UP CERTAIN AREAS. Make you have to go back further and stuff as well? So yeah I think I think that's true it's just fascinating to me because it's Kinda like the ecology of the way things work by like. Everything's tied to something else. I mean we have bozeman now which is like this. Jack pump pumping out mountain athletes into the back country to hunt Montana and Wyoming. Then that's that's got. Its upside that. He's got his downsides. The upside is more people are engaged. The downside is you gotta run into. Yeah and and Nathan said to me on that you know. We were sitting there kind of. I don't WanNa say lamenting the thing. I mean we had a really good trip. We got two nice dear at one Alkan three days. Wow and we got all of them with him about four hundred yards of our attempts pitched right but he was like. Do you think that we may be partially responsible for this? And I was like unfortunately yes you know because you know we're making lighter and I actually try not to talk about our gear a whole lot on the podcast but you know analyst comes naturally but it's like well were let making lighter. Beer were making gear. That is good for the shoulder. Seasons when you have eight inches of snow on the ground and things like that as well and it just you know but you know it's good but it's a little bit of a double edged sword. I mean you kind of want to say it's great to get people engaged and get them out there as long as they're not in muddy hole right for sure today of being a travel and misanthropic and big person. I still think that the the the positives outweigh the negatives and I. I don't know how long I'll be able to say that because I don't know if you've ever read Jim Styles in a Kenya countries efforts in Moab and he just hates tourism. You know. He's so sick of it and all that stuff but I still see that more engagement in big landscapes. Nature bullet lands hunting as still see it as a positive on the scale omagree. It's hard for me to see it that way when I run into people in my spot or whatever but I guess in intellectually. I know it's a positive in the less constituent. You have the less. You're going to keep unfortunately agree with you on that. Yeah I mean it's hard to yours. What are these people doing here? Look at that file story that this little pass which it along fine and my daughter was with me and we had seen these far off and we thought they were in that. Pass you know. My son was with us. But he's he's getting dice. He's way better than I am now and he disappeared and so we got up there above that pass and we were watching and it was a guy in orange with an orange vests down there and I said Damn who at clown he's like he wasn't he didn't come in here from. Where did he come from? And we were dogging on this person who is sitting there. He's too close to the past. He was doing everything wrong and my daughter was like. Yeah you think clown is and of course it was son who had outrun us a hundred times faster than we could go and hit established himself exactly in the right place and so. I think that all the time when disciplined people that I wrote into you know because I don't want them. They're like what we got down there and solids. He'll we just kind of sheepishly laughed. You know like we were saying about you. Dan minutes ago who are clone cloud. And let's go and he said up. I said I'll bet he works for those outfitters down there. They don't really not hunt that much you know. He's like raising the wrong like he wouldn't the wrong places in a perfect place like our own dear flesh and blood. Oh that's funny man. That's funny what about what about you dentist. Are you running into extra people in your replace or do you have this secret spot that no one no one goes to now? I'm not GonNa talk about anything and there's never any people were go has just interested immediately. See People read in? I'm I'm one of those of only been in Colorado five years now You know I would be a Newbie as it were so I'm GonNa Happen Colorado kind of does it to itself to like. We have the most over the counter opportunities for people so you don't even have to plan a trip to Colorado you decide you know September thirteenth. Come here in hunt Yeah I mean it's just going to happen you know. Yeah where did you come from Dennis? from Wisconsin originally Gotcha. Yeah so in. Spend a little bit of time in Washington state in made it to Colorado. Yes slow you come from that Wisconsin White jail and while I culture one hundred percent. Yeah I run into that. Used to be Pennsylvania Michiganders' tonight so you ran into who they were like fairly. They were serious and they might be needed a country. They were obviously there to kill something which is in a good. What sheriff I try real hard but I I just remembered because they come from Matt Culture Yeah interest in. Yeah grow up just fishing and hunting as a part of what you do. I mean when I grew up I lived we had Ryan Lampard's on a couple of weeks ago and you know Ryan. Well his obviously a heck of a hunter but he also gardens and canes and does all sorts of things right. Yeah and it was like when I grew up I grew up in my grandma and we had this giant garden. I mean I hated the thing but primarily fished Most of our meat was white tail. my grandma. She basically offered between services for a quarter of a deer so a lot of around. She can't a lot of meat. She even made her own line. I mean we were pretty self sufficient in a study sore way in fact. I was kind of joking with Angie a couple days ago. That this whole social distancing and delivery of groceries. Isn't that different? Yeah where I grew up. Wisconsin. The milkman came and he brought Okinawa eggs and so my grandma went to store like every couple of weeks and just bought poor things to make things but the bulk of our stuff. Was You know? Milk and eggs came and we had a bunch of deer canned and a lot of vegetables can and a lot of it in the basement. You know we didn't really need to go anywhere. So yeah entrusting onset rather they used to deliver milk terrorists doorstep all the time like yeah food food deliveries like just the thing. Yeah and like when my grandmother's Day in Montgomery Alabama the they deliver groceries because many people didn't have cars it said there was a grocery delivery was berry normal back then so it is. I mean some of these things had been done. You know back in back in the day I guess you would say and now we're kind of partially reverting back but for a while we were like well we have cheap oil and everyone has a car and we can do whatever you want. I mean myself. I'm Kinda like this. I normally drive four to five hundred miles a week because I normally go to grand junction once Yup on the week And then I go. I've driven like sixty miles in the last two weeks now. Yeah that's US too us. To great falls is fifty two miles away and we used to do a grocery running there every like eight days or whatever and I. It's been our nets as we've been there you know we're trying we're trying to do what do what's right but before we get too far bike order. I wanted to ask you about the repor aspect because like there's a weird way I don't know what it is but like have you ever notice when you're thinking of something fields up in really strongly you start noticing it. It's kind of a Zeke geist in in a country and at that like the this like I'm so glad to have your tent and your stove right now and the stuff I've gotten from you. I when when my children were really little we kept a ee. Two five water filters in a good of course an ammo and all that stuff just like in a very large bug out duffle. You know and I'm not paranoid at all like general curdle. Jeff Cooper used to say people say I'm paranoid because that carry a gun I tell them. Hey Man I'm not paranoid. I got a super nice gun. You know I don't have to meet paranoid But we weren't paranoid. We were responsible for two toddlers and so we were by some definite word. We were prep irs right then and still that way and I think that that's a that's a current America right now. I know you're seeing an uptick in business because of that but like what do you think that? What do you think that's GonNa do? You think that's going to be a flash in the PAN or do you think that's going to be with us for a long time so you know I think that From my own personal experience because I had one young Tomor when nine eleven happened and when nine eleven happened I thought you know we should Kind of be a little more proper based right Yup ourselves and so we did that for quite a while and I mean now you know. One of my children is seventeen The other one is twenty They know how to Hunt Yano Farish. They know how to do those things. So we've probably relaxed that a little bit kick two years But you know when we first moved to this House. We had a big garden. We had chickens. We were pretty self sufficient right for you. Know going out to eat and stuff like that Now seek outside note we have. I know we have a proper business right. We get with some prep irs right and I don't mean like we worked with him like we pay to promote or anything like that but I mean I see I see preparez post on social media Outer tents and stove or prepping with it and we get approached by Properties occasionally want to You know want us to try to monetize that I know and I know that we've had people where they've bought the whole family like a span teepee and stove. So we're we're father's been like I'm getting my whole family. This just Seattle. They're safe right So I know that that goes on. But we've we've never when people have said Hey. Do you want to try to market to this guy? This guy? Everyone will by what he tells them to. And we don't we don't try to exploit it right. You know. I I look at this. Is We are a backpacking and hunting and wilderness. Adventure company right That being said this is a true story. Probably four five years ago. Had A lady call who was prepping. She wanted a teepee and stove and a pack and she worked for the Department of Homeland Security And she was planning this bug out thing right again. It Raises Kinda raised when when the Department of Homeland Security is calling you up and prepping right. They're like they're like I see myself in the mountains somewhere between here and this is serious and so I mean there's going to be there's going to be some and I don't think Prepping is a bad thing. In fact I know that you know like Nathan who works for us. You know I was chatting with him when this happens. He lives in rural Tennessee. Outside of Nashville. Yeah and and you know. He's kind of a southern southern redneck. Who Hudson stuff. You know what I mean so you. Yeah you know And he and he was like tell you the truth. I wish I would have propped a little more you know. He has not really a proper and I may have talked to someone else. Recently to WHO I consider a pretty good friend and he was like well. I'm not really a proper but I'm I'm buying more food than normal. You know usually try to adhere to our budget. But we'RE GONNA stash a couple extra months of. Yeah so I think this is making everyone take notice when this one this initially happened. You saw most of the hunters posting online. Hey I don't have to worry about my freezer where I write enemy. Yeah I have three freezers that are in use. Only really two of them are mostly meat but but it was like well who you know as a everyone's running around looking for meat. We're doing all right now. We have we seek outside. We bought our employees like two hundred pounds of meat from a local butcher shop and delivered it to him because bigger steady of grand junction which is probably not really any bigger than great falls like everyone had bought up all the meat. So Yeah Yeah. I don't even know if that was true around great ball because we had our made already in the freezer. We have to look for it. Although we did talk with a my neighbor ball a half a cow a half a steer and they went up there jotted and skinned and butchered themselves. You know for like a discount And I was interested in that and I thought that was a great idea As long as you get a good one we used to buy. We used to buy cows and we had one that was ono. What was he must have found dead car? One of them was really rough. The others were pretty good but yeah I mean I didn't know that junction willows. Basically to meet at that time either. But because I didn't need to buy any I mean we buy a little bit of Bacon and maybe nothing about it. You know so. Yeah you know like well cared for large talk get it. Yeah how is now? You mentioned that you've been starting plant plant. You know you've been starting planting garden and stuff like that a little bit more. We put a bunch of starts in which we used to just go to great falls and by starts I mean. We're Alliott where I live in where he lives. Not that different. I mean it's a short growing season and like there's a lot of years. Where we we get a pretty good garden go. And and they'll be these enormous hailstorm driving July and they just pulverize. We've had we kind of we garden. Probably the first five years. We were here pretty well. But but because it's kind of high altitude. It was real touch and go. I mean you get a freeze and June theon steak reason August And we are at the low part in the valley. I mean it's kind of funny like our neighbor literally probably lose ten vertical feet higher than us. But it's enough to not be at the low point. So if we get to twenty-eight he's thirty three got when we lived in a bitter. We had huge gardens and stuff and it was just like a very benevolent climate. You know compared to the far north. No I I would agree with in God that Missoula areas gutter relatively. I mean I know people think that it gets pretty cold and stuff and I'm not an expert at the Times I've been there in the spring. It's been relatively ent pretty good girl in season. Yeah Yeah I don't know didn't like when I grew up in Alabama. We had big gardens in. My parents came and eighty dollars. All the boats were so fierce at times we would lose entire like squash all your beans like in one fail. Swoop be now Texas kind of late that at times to be. There's there's pros and cons. I remember when the organic farming movement started a lot of around North Carolina at about four thousand five thousand feet because they would get the number of days. Were freezing cold to kill. Some of the pests. Yeah Yeah so when I ran into you at shot show yes. I ran into at shot. Show you invited us to go. Hang out over by a gold right. Yes yes and I know you've done some stuff with the Bundy's were you that you have paid a lot of attention to the Bundy's Yep so and you were you spend like. Wasn't it like a month at mall hairs? No it was really just a few days but the essay I wrote from there was based on following that and then I finally lost patience and drove there and hung out with all the people you know for a couple of days but I just followed that for a long time because you could see that. This was a movement that had residents across you think of it. As a Latter Day Saints Movement you know but it had residents across Jim wishes and whatnot which had nothing to do with with Mormon beliefs. You know I knew I knew I always knew that was going to be a big thing and it has been. I went by the Bundy's ranch in Bunkerville when I was down there right after I saw you and I wrote them on facebook and asked if I could come and visit but I didn't get it and I thought that it would be rude to just drive the in so I didn't meet them. I went by there and I went to go sell their cows and met them since I met ammon at the Mo- here refuge but I didn't really talk to Him. He doesn't really they don't really talk with you. They talked to you. Yeah I mean there's not a lot of discourse they're they're pretty sure they've got the world figured out so how do they get to the point? I mean it seems that they feel that whatever they're doing is absolutely right. I'm not sure how you get that kind of certainty in this world. I think religion has a lot to do with it but one of the things. Let me let me then. We'll give this really. I'm glad you asked just. Because do they moved where the Virgin River goes into lake? Mead is where their ranches and it is the Mojave desert south all the way to lake mead recreational area which is like forty miles south. And I'll tell you one thing but he. They moved to the harshest part of the United States. The hottest harsh part like the Arctic right and they Freak Hill loan there and they had a bunch of kids and their kids around and their bunkerville settled by these Mormon Pioneers and I think a lot of it is just a kind of perhaps Inordinate pride in in making it and like they picked up place that nobody else wanted. And so I'm I'm being maybe overly nice about Cliven Bundy and his family But they picked place that absolutely nobody else could make it or would wanna try and then they made it. And then when the regulations to protect the desert tortoise and and you know a concept of animal unit months on public land came in. I think that just absolutely infuriated them completely because they consider that they were in a place where nobody else could make it or would want a N. You're somebody telling them what to do. And I I have. I relate to that but at the same time the move but is destructive and they're being used by a larger Pravda's agent or state transfer movement if you went out in the wilderness and you just went out and you did say like a Dick Prone keep style thing and you went out there and you just made your own thing and you're like I'm tough as nails as my place. No one's GonNa tell them what to do. And then you get it done you have all your pride and next thing you know the tax assessor comes walking up by you and like okay. This is going to be twenty five hundred dollars per year yet and could see that. I mean I was driving. I was camping down gold. Which is incredible by the way. And there's A. There's an incredible trip to be made from the Whitney pocket. South to the lake made national recreation area. You need four wheel drives and carry your own gas well but it is really amazing country. L. Let's camped up on this this hill and you know the Bundy's came by with a truck way down below and a trailer. They're going out to rope. Whatever basically wild cows did they'd gone out there and there's not a whole lot to lots of cows around there is a desert. They moved to like one of the harshest places and said Oh. We're going to farm this ruse cattle. We're GONNA hold your race cap. They didn't come up with a melon farm in down there on their little piece of flatland I mean they only have one hundred sixty acres. Is I understand it and came up with this melon farm on their one piece of flatland down by the Virgin River and I think they grow really great melons. That's when everybody says. But then they have this kind of Farrell Cal Business L. Massad and they run them on Bubba Atlanta and they don't pay and they don't listen to anybody in. I mean I finally got like other. Americans identified with the Bundys they want to be tough and self sufficient and out there in the Mojave desert with the hat to you know. Eat when you're in your cubicle. At the Insurance Agency. And you imagine yourself wasting your life when you could be ROIC. You're probably on the bunny. You're probably own the BUNDY RANCH. Facebook page when you're supposed to be selling insurance bench.

Nathan Cliven Bundy Wisconsin US Tennessee Colorado Idaho facebook Bunkerville grand junction irs Turkey Alaska Jim Styles Virgin River Mojave desert Department of Homeland Securit Washington bozeman
The Death Of Religion

Part of the Problem

1:25:02 hr | 1 year ago

The Death Of Religion

"We need a rollback. The state we spy on all of our own citizens are loaded with non violent drug offenders. If you WANNA know who America's next enemy is looking at refunding right now. Problems are open government being way too it. Oh Merry Christmas. I hope you've all been good. I see Rob Bernstein's been a very naughty boy nothing but eating sandwiches and jerking off all year. You get a lump of coal. Ju I feel like Santa would be into that if anything it would become my like. I like the way this guy's living we can hang out crew who I remember when you put away those two subs back to back back old. Santa He's been there a few times. Yeah maybe Santa comes down just loves raw Bernstein and there's no way still sleeping with grandma clause. Oh now now I highly doubt it. That's I don't think Jerry can offer fucking the reindeer. It's one of the other while this is well. Then there you go there you go JUD denigrating your your precious precious holiday of Christmas. Well Merry Christmas everybody. It is the morning of a Christmas Eve. We don't usually record in the more like I'm working for the man here. Ten Am Star. Times was the day before I know what's going on that really supposed to be a six. PM JOB is. I don't know how many ever podcast. Yes I've recorded in the morning. We don't skanks a couple times when we had to do makeup episodes or something like that early but Yeah there's something a whole different vibe to it having an orange juice instead of a a beer with the podcast makes me. Is You guys have been getting a lot of evening Dave. I'm really not that angry. I think the system could be tweaked. That's a little bit better but bolers the government. I mean when I say at ten. Am It just sounds a little bit crazy. I don't know maybe cut marginal tax rates a little bit but abolish the whole thing. It's a full day of the city it slowly gets to you handed harsh going by by six. PM I don't know what to tell Ya but ten. AM Like I don't know. Hey how about this mecer sweatshirt. Jeff Day sent me this for Christmas. What a great guy? That Geoff. dyson is Great got love the mises institute. I'm still waiting for my crown. Well this is the institute not the caucus no affiliation with the institute. You're not the King Cox. I don't start getting crazy. I'm basically licensed are you. Are you annexing me institute and taking that over as well king of the inst- well. They're the academics damage behind our cause. So I mean they somehow finished my kingdom and need a pay proper tribute all right very good. I'm willing to license the name back to them is my My my wife and daughter came down to the studio with me today. Is We're going straight to a Christmas and my wife says that my wife's my wife's house she lives with me at my wife's Families has The history say and my wife's outs were doing this thing really. We're not I mean we're married and have a kid but I don't want to you know maintain in separate resonance but I literally. I'm just looking out and I see the cartoon has already switched from the one. They were watching when we came in here and go. That's not a good sign. I mean somebody's fasten so any. You know what I was thinking. I thought for today's episode. We would take some Some listener questions from part of the problem inner circle. It's been a little while since we've done that and I always liked to to hear back from the people the people who made me and stay in touch with that was the I remember when we first started this show that used to be a segment on the show called listener questions and the show was so small at the time. A few thousand people listening to it that I would. I used to say and I never really thought about like the idea of the a show getting big but I used to go my like guarantee on the show is if you I will read every listener comment on the show and it'd be easy to do so it'd be like eight so you just read them all. Aw and then there's like I remember. That was the first time when I thought I felt like other shows getting big was I was like. I can't even read all the comments anymore. There's too many and now. Jesus Christ Christ the half of them are just memes about bonus episodes but I mean those are thousands of those just alone. I'm sorry okay. Hey maybe I haven't come through on every bonus episode. It's Christmas Jesus. Christ it's Christmas having no heart have a soul cooked goose for everyone all right. You know what I did want to say though before we get into that just something. That was on my mind that I thought maybe I would. I would express share with you guys that I was thinking about as we enter the holiday season of what is this crazy year and we go into twenty twenty which is just going to be such a such another wild year politically politically and this stuff's moving fast man. I mean I think the I I could be wrong about this but I believe the Iowa. Primary is at the end the February maybe march. But it's coming soon like they're going to start voting a Hillary Clinton's go to announce only got a few weeks left. She's got to get into this thing thing she's GonNa get in after in hopes she can just rally up. All the blacks and South Carolina Skill Hampshire. Skip by just getting anyway. This is going to get going. This is a presidential year going into a presidential year with Donald trump running for reelection with all these crazy dem's with Falcon With trump getting impeached. I think it's it's just GonNa be wild but anyway I was thinking going in because it's Christmas you know and and who better to talk about the spirit of Christmas than a couple Christian conservative Jews? You gotTa Gentile family now. You're you're almost in the clan. I'm working hard to get baptized or something. Yeah I don't know I mean I mean why would you want the rest of your family to get salvation perform my own baptism. But I don't know if it counts. It was it wasn't holy water. It was Poland spring but I doubt myself good. I really water. Yeah it really really. It bothered me because I bottled water. Cheap I wasted. You know half a bottle on that thing but you gotta do what you gotTa do. But I was just thinking I don't know it's just dawning on me like isn't it and I know we've talked about this before. I'm sure everyone to some degree as thought about this. But do you think that Jews killed Christ race absolutely well. They didn't do it with their own hands but they obviously they sold them out there like Mr Realm and This one little bit of a loud mouth. I don't know he's I always say in things you're not supposed to say but isn't it. I am sure there has been a time in history but isn't it pretty remarkable how little religion there is in our society. You know what I mean like in our government and our society is I certainly. There's never been a time in American history when religion engine is as like removed from from people's lives at your somebody who grew up in a very religious house but now you live in the world of Heathens. But but isn't it kind of crazy when you think about like you know like we've talked about before on the show but throughout history usually the most dangerous thing you could do would be to deny God or or you know commit blasphemy like speak out against your religion. That was real forget. Obviously there were legal costs and people got killed for of this shit. And you know but just socially there'd be like huge social ramifications and today it's like you could say you could go tweet. God is dead. You can tweet. There's no such thing as God. You could tweet Christianity anything like that and not even have a sense of concern that at your accounts GonNa get suspended. Or you're going to get a strike against you like no one would even think they'd be even the tech companies would be the first to say. Well that's his freedom of speech. He has every right to shit on Christianity or God or anything like that. But if you were to say anything that the wrong thing about race Or the wrong thing about Jews or Muslims or something like that then it's like blasphemy and it's just an interesting dynamic because how many like if you were to criticize religion. The only religions you couldn't criticize are the minority ones in the country. And isn't that just strange like the majority already. Religion is the one that you can freely criticize. This is such a strange world. We live in just so devoid of of of religion. And that's a pretty big fan. Thing of religion has played a really central role in the way humans organized for for pretty much. All of human history and you know feel however you feel about it. It's just it's a big deal. I was thinking about how you know. It's like the first trump is is the president and trump's got to be the least religious president ever did you ever see the thing When he was getting a because they're still kind of these like archaic like he still he still plays like? He's a good old Christian boy. We'll we'll that's just that's almost what I think you kind of have to you. You almost have to like pretend you're but do you ever see so when you're campaigning and this'll be coming up this year again. But they'll still do these like interviews reverend so and so or some pastor or something like that they sit down and talk to him and trump was doing one of them in two thousand sixteen when he was running for president and he was talking about the Bible and he goes you know it. It really is just just unbelievable book. Just a terrific book and he goes. It's even better than my book. Art of the deal. One point like he goes. It's even better than my like I was and you knew that. Took everything for trump to say like that trump was the ultimate compliment. It's even better than art of the deal and then the guy asked him a And one point I think he said he goes. What's your favorite verse in the Bible and goes whether I'll really terrific while excuse just dress fair and like you know he said it would work? What's your favorite book in the Bible and he goes the Bible? The Bible's book. That's the book it's the Bible the whole body like he's not even aware that there's multiple books I mean he's like it's hilarious and it's just like look trump may say he's a Christian. I think that but I mean come on who really thinks that trump is like a religious guy. I I I just. I don't know doesn't doesn't seem like it to me. As the guy is on his third marriage and walking around you know fucking porn stars while his wife's pregnant is you know in gold plated. I think ever since he bought want Milania he's really turned it around. You know once you purchase that third wife from Russia and she's fresh you become a man of the Lord Fam- Dad Right around the time I purchase my third wife. I've got a great deal on her half the price of my second wife. Yeah but it's and then the Democrats as opposed to him. I mean they're just like I mean again. They all pretend to be Christians but they're all just hostile toward Christianity. The funniest one is a mayor Pete. Who really he's the one who invokes Christianity the most and he'll be like he'll brings up the Bible a lot and these Republicans aren't acting the way the Bible tells you to acton separating children from their families at at the border is just? This isn't the Bible told us to act and you're sitting there like dude dude. You're gay gay is sit here and tell me about the word of the Bible. What did they say about you just sitting like it's just so it's just like it's almost like just to mock anyone who's seriously Christian gay people are both giving being and receiving person than that? Dave is a good point. I've got damn you and your Talmudic logic full giving and receiving that is that is absolutely true. Do both of those things yeah man. It's a anyway I don't know it's just like I used to be. You know kind of like a militant atheist like I really I did. I used to just be like you know like to me. It was like since I was young. Since I I think my teenage years and into my twenties it was like with the very obvious you know atheist points like there's no there's no proof of this and it's faith and faith isn't a virtue and all all the stuff that like your your twenty year old looks at Christopher Hitchens and thinks he's like so bad ass and stuff like that and then even when I first became a libertarian. I was like I. I was very on the Atheist Atheist Bandwagon to like I was like no gods no states. All of this shit like Just doesn't it. It's all fake and it doesn't need to exist and I've just more as I get older been more like you know. I think the absence of religion in life may not be the best thing and I think that at the very least we've really thrown out the baby with the bathwater as a society like there. There were really good aspects of religion and we didn't replace that with anything else and we just isolated people. You know what I mean like. It's not there's there isn't like some other sense of community that we replaced religion with there isn't some other reason to be a good person and not just worship yourself and not just live life about the meaning of life isn't just to be happy or just to have fun or just like we may be theoretically you could replace religion with something else but we sure as fuck didn't do that and I've always had like a big problem with like the Which I think even Stephan Mylan you? I think he kind of like like he used to be this way. And then kind of backed off of it where he would be like you know like Philosophy can replace religion. And it's like yeah okay. I mean what does that do for the guy with an eighty. I Q this philosophy gonna replace is religion for him. Because I don't know if he's really gonNA GONNA be reading fucking aristotle you know but he probably can get going to church he probably like the the thing about religion is it really was something that binds this society together like. It's got a role for everyone. You know what I mean and look obviously you can find in Christianity a you could find like if you go through the through the Bible or you go throughout history you can find really good elements of it and really bad elements of it. You know now but it's like if you look at society starting from like mud huts and basically people living like savages. And then you look doc to wear like the Western Christian nations got to so seemed to work pretty well and and at least was there while society was advancing. I'm not saying you know and an argument or a slam dunk for why you need it but it does just seem like it's like wow. This is a really really different experiment. What we're in right now now and I don't know how's it going? The seems like it has its problems. I think the I don't have a lot of evidence of this but I get the vibe from some of the finding finding founding fathers five word when you're saying hey I think this to be true and I have no analytics. There's evidence just give me a visa and I pick up from like people like Ben Franklin. I don't think that they were necessarily a real Christian believers but they just felt like society needed religion and so they they partook in it because they just saw it as important even if you didn't necessarily have absolute faith in Christ or however that wacky religion works because I'm not familiar with that one. Yeah but but I think the best version of that is just the Bob Dylan Song. You gotta serve somebody like. We're all Kinda have philosophies and like every decision is built built around them and I don't know that most people's personal gauge our code of ethics is better than out religion offered. Yeah yeah no I agree and that thing that is really really. It's like that and even the people who say they're above it The the atheists who are like I'm just a purely rational atheist or whatever and then maybe there are some people out there. I around something you just look. The desire to worship is like hardwired into our DNA like it's and and the and and the idea of God like it's a was there some old it was like a Jewish story but A Guy who has the story is something like a college student writes a paper on God and the idea was to disprove God and he's like you know and he goes through like you had your paper out and he was always great goes first off. I the first a page or the first argument was that it was all you know. There's no evidence for God and goes through all all of the like archaeological findings and all of the like you know like scientific evidence and nothing about God can be proven and all the evidence points toward evolution and then the second one was like a psychological breakdown down about how God you know Freud would say God is the projection of a father figure and like each chat each thing like more and more just attacking the idea of God and there's no evidence for God and this is why an take the estimates this whole paper and goes it goes. Oh what'd you get. And he goes. I got an eighth thank. God that's the and it's just silly but it does demonstrate something that there's like you know it's like if you're if you're on a plane that's coming down or you're on a you know they're saying it's like there are no atheists unthinking ships or something like that. Yeah well what you know. You'd get the point and it's just like there really is something like it's in you now. That doesn't prove that God exists on. Its own but there is it does say something about man if nothing else and it certainly doesn't prove God doesn't exist but it's it does say something and that it was the experience I had you know a year ago when when my wife had my baby where you know it was just it was like right away even somebody nobody like myself who has never really raised really believing in God. It's like right away. I'm talking to God and right away. I'm making deals with God like town. So it's like not only do I feel like in my core or somewhere without ever being aware of it. It's like I believe in this guy and then also I feel like I know what he wants me to do like I know he wants me to be a better person and I'm like agreeing agreeing to do that. And it was just after looking at that and you go man. What the fuck was that? That's kind of crazy. That just came out of me. That was never indoctrinated into me. That just came came. That Ganic you know and Yeah and that's why I think you see now. There might be some individuals who will be like. Well I can cut particularly particularly you know. If I'm speaking of like the libertarian crowd there might be some individuals who are like. Well I you know I do. I think I'm an atheist and I act rationally. Or whatever and you you know ethically and I follow philosophy and yeah listen. Maybe that's you but when it is brought to the masses it does seem like what ends ends up happening. is they find something else to worship. It does seem like there's like a worship vacuum and then something else floods into that and of course it's the best. Example is the the modern left in America who are the most atheist Dick Group of people in our society and immediately immediately. Just start worshipping these. Other gods I mean diversity is their God or anti racism or like you know fucking in the state or like all of these things are obviously religions. I mean like it's it's the same exact thing as religion egalitarian. It's it's just a religion it's just you never actually. It's just undying belief in something and you never actually have to like you know I I dunno prove it. It's just something you worship and believe in so anyway Merry Christmas. That's that was more or less what I just wanted to start off talking about. I just think it's something that's interesting and it doesn't get. It's like such a profound shift in our society and that's like so many of these things in America in twenty twenty almost does now. There's so many things where it's like. This is a really profound shift in our society and it doesn't really get discussed like people don't really talk about it that much just to jump off what you were saying with the I guess there's a belief system even amongst the left. I noticed it myself a while ago when I stopped really observing religion I thought belief leaf was a very stupid reason to kind of it. There's no fact base there to just do something and revolve your entire life around. Believe it seemed like a dumb reason to do something but but I later realized that I have a belief in goodness and what I mean by that is if like you take God out of the equation I still believe that there's reason to be good like I don't see. Life is just pursuit of power. And you take God out. You could really go. Hey then life is just about power. It's about accumulating power because that's the absolute best first thing you can do here and even if you have to do that A. Morally that's what you should do and I don't believe that so now I'm already that's not logical that's belief so once I say I've got belief Lifan goodness so what's the jump to say. I have a belief in God or I have a belief in anything. You're still making decisions right around a belief. Yeah that's probably true of everyone in the left that if you really put their feet to the fire about why I guess they hold certain things to be true. It's probably not fact based or evidence based it's more belief based and so in a shit on person for Christian belief versus what what you really have is a belief right. It's not like really logically can says no you're right. It's it's very nice to feel like you're above above that you're like Oh and it's very easy right away to go. Oh you're just doing this. Faith what is faith. Why should I have faith in anything but then you realize it's like yeah well there's going to be look if you you really just reduce it down to like the pure atheist we are just you know basically the way fuck in a single celled organism turns into you know a two celled organism and then there's us a long process in between but the same way trees? You know okay evolved we we basically evolved where the second half of that railway fifty percent of the same DNA as a tree or something like that. It's really like all that's the idea right like all life. Just it's like kind of is just a scientific process then why not just take people's Shit Kill People Oh and do why. Why have any fucking you know like why why? Why live by any ethical code and then you get into a thing which which? I've heard the argument. But as you you start to get into a thing that does become a belief again. Because I've heard these people who and their argument will be like well but it's not really in your best interest. It's in all of our best best interest to act morally or something always be the free rider. Well the problem with that is that there's so many people who act immorally and do great from that. I mean like you know like you can so you can come back to say like well you know. The Clintons are really miserable even though they have hundreds of millions of dollars and they've had all this power and all of this stuff they're really miserable inside but then isn't that just kind of like a religious belief in itself that Karma always come comes back to get those and nobody's really happy at the end of the day if they stole the money like do we actually know that. Is there any way of actually gauging this because there are some people who live really honest life lives and aren't that happy and so I don't actually know that there's any evidence that people don't aren't happy when they felt in steel like I don't know maybe but it's kind of just again like you said a belief you're just it's really hard to to escape believing like the way you said. It was perfect. It was simple and profound. It's really hard to escape believing something in less. You're just going to be a piece of shit and just be like I believe in nothing. I don't believe anything all kill Rape Steal Whatever And again this isn't like that's not like to disprove atheism atheism. It's just saying that you will end up putting something in there now different. That's not to say that all beliefs are the same. And I gotta say even someone who does believe in. God I gotTa say there are certain traditions about religion that for me. Personally I find kind of goofy like the idea that like to take the Jewish shit like uh just believing in good is to me at least seems a little bit different then believing that I can't have a cheeseburger because it was written down five thousand years ago. That it to me just seemed so illogical that I'm like now I don't know it's like you're telling me there's a God and he he made cheeseburgers tastes this good and doesn't want me to have a cheeseburger that's just that's that seems silly. It seems much more likely that this was dangerous to eat five thousand years ago. And that's why they wrote. Yeah I'll give you a Jewish religious argument against that. which is that if you know if you WANNA create the reality of God part of it is just doing and not doing things on the basis that he told you can and can't do it and so in your own mind if you WANNA create the reality of? Hey there's God here and then you're doing things just because you commanded you on on the basis of doing and not doing then like in your own world you're creating that reality and then part of it is. He just created a framework even with the relationship with the rabbis. That it's more important important that you're doing or not doing on the basis of what you were told right and so I like some of that all of that faith into the rules. Okay yeah look I mean I now. I don't keep any of those roles just giving you the argument. Still my favorite. My favorite story is that me and Rob Rob stops ops. Being Kosher had never had a philly cheese steak and we went to get a village that he goes. I'M GONNA have my first philly cheese steak. Dave let's go do it so I was like okay great. There's this really good cheese. Take place I think they close but it was called nine miles to Philly Here in New York with you know ninety nine miles away from Philadelphia and they'd get the bread shipped in from Philly and stuff is really good and we go there and we had cheese steak and then rob by the way after it literally after we found these cheese steaks rob goes. Do you WanNa go get a burger now and I was like you're insane. No just date and like are we doing this or not but I really need one meal I called you the next day I called Rob. What's up what's going on Dave and I was like what are you up to because I'm I'm just eating cheese steaks and I was like Holy Shit Rob? It's not an everyday thing you took your stake ever call you the next day just like this. Is Life man eating cheese steaks. This is what I do anyway. I was making up for lost time. Great Great Rob Bernstein. Moment I guys. Let's take a quick second and thank our sponsor for today's show which is Hoesch. Has she sucks has she. Stocks are the perfect gift for stocking stuffers or secret Santa's and their brand new collection has been released their amazing they just look incredible new styles new colors and the same amazing. Feel for those of you who are new to the podcast. I've been talking about. Has she socks for what's been forever. Now they're the best socks I've ever owned. If you're tired of your feet feet hurting and dress shoes after a long day of work throwing a pair of socks you're GONNA be amazed. How much better they feel Has she socks dot com. That's the place to go. Most fashioned socks address socks are expensive. They're poorly constructed. They provide zero protection. Not has she socks has she. Socks are cushioned the Heel Foot Anto they have arch support in the center. So your feet. Don't slosh around in your shoes. 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Sorry my baby's in the background just so perfect all right hold on one second let me pull it up so I post is in the part of the problem inner circle of course if you want to be part of the part of the problem part you want to be part of the part of the problem Inner Circle all you gotTa do is a sign up become contributing tripping listener Gobert gas digital network DOT COM use Promo Code P. O. T. P.. Get your monthly discount. And then you just posted on the forums that you want to be in the inner circle then you are require Request the group on facebook. And I know some. You're like oh it takes me a while to get into the group but you should see how long it used to take. It's really not that bad couple of weeks you'll be in there but then you get in. It's real fun group. I really I I love the guys in there. A lot of Lot of ball busting yours truly in there but You know some of it's fair so I I enjoy it and a lot of really interesting stuff. Cool articles. Good people okay so I posted A. We're recording an episode this morning morning and I'll be taking some questions what you got and okay. So let's get into it. Mike writes quote. Abortion is the five second rule of murder credit. Nick Nick his brother. I don't know that's not really a question. The sound like if foods been on the floor usually I always heard it as ten seconds. It's like it's still okay to be even more people say five seconds here it has done so I've always heard that as ten listen. I'm a Germaphobe cocaine shit off the floor you garbage dirty people that will shouldn't exist but some people go. Hey only on the floor for ten seconds I can still eat it. So it's like only been in the wound ninety days you can still kill it. Yep that's what he's trying to say you say there should be no arbitrary line and he's saying that sometimes there is magical arbitrary lines well Perhaps I guess listen listen I It's I'll be honest. It's the Best pro-choice argument I've heard the I'll just leave it at that. I'd say it's great but it's the best. I would respect a pro choice advocate more if they came out and they might not now five second rule come on you know all right so connor writer. The militias being formed in Virginia in response to possible gun control legislation Bogu. Oh yeah yeah the big Lou. We haven't really talked about that So that is that is an interesting topic. What do you think about it? Robbie love it. Also they had happened in Washington in state that they are forgot the specifics but they'd pass some new film lie and the local sheriff's to said that they weren't enforcing it and that to me is the ultimate example of the fact that a armed populace is important. Because you see like does the arm is the army really going to show up and start taking guns away from people people. Do they really want to be in a gunfight and have to kill civilians. I don't think so and so I do think that when everyone has guns it government does does have to somewhat keep in mind. Hey if we move taxes up to one hundred percent people are going to fight back and then one of the factors there is the army or cops actually going to go fight. Their neighbors. Yeah in order to enforce the law and I think the answer's no and so what you're seeing right now. Which I think is super important? And you're GONNA see more of it. It's going on in Virginia and I happened in Washington is I think law enforcement officials if these laws get passed or not GonNa WanNa go enforce them which is proof of the importance of people with guns. It is in the Virginia. For example it is particularly crazy that the the governor doing it is a guy who openly advocated for killing babies and was wearing wearing black face. It's like if you just wanted a person to do it to convince these right wingers that they're literally trying to have you know what I mean like. The most evil leftist revelry never like that was like the face face that was the black face of evil left To be fair he might have been in the Klan Hood. I don't know if we ever got to the bottom of that but it was one of the two But yeah the other is something interesting about that dynamic that you were talking about with the sheriff saying they're gonNA refuse. How far would military go? How far would the national guard go if they were ordered ordered to disarm people in the people not willing to be disarmed? It's an interesting question. Yeah there's something about this country that is a little bit different and you know this is just. It's really hard to deny if you have any perspective and I'm no historian but if you have any perspective on history at all where you would kind of go. America is a pretty unique. You know country and it's not unique for any of the reasons why the left bashes. It's really funny because what the Left bashes about America is all the shit that makes America like every other country like. Oh we used to have slavery three or there's racism or something like that. That's actually what makes America just like every other country in the world. There's you know. Show me a country. That fucking doesn't have prejudice prejudice of different groups country. That's not tribal that doesn't have any sectarian conflict show you know. How many countries many modern countries can you can you point to that? Never had slavery right and not that many slavery was pretty normal up until the nineteenth century so anyway But but what if you just looked at America what we've done you would go. That's a pretty unique country like this country you know like is the most powerful country that's ever existed. It's you know the world empire. It's there's so many things about us but more than even that it's like just the fact like the influence if you take away the fact that we're like the empire and we fight all these wars and we have military bases all around the world. American culture has an impact on the country on the world unlike any other country. And you think about how how many countries you go through and get Coca Cola and get you know like these are music our our literature movies they will grow throughout the world. You know and and There's something interesting about the mindset that Americans have and although most people probably don't think of freedom in exactly the same way that me and you do they do believe that we're supposed to be a free country and I think in some way no matter what the law on the books is. There's going to be a lot of sheriffs Harrison and National Guard members. Who have a real problem with this like? You're going to war with your own people you know. It's like the other countries. There's there's been other countries throughout history where it's kind of like the deal is we're a military dictatorship or were a socialist dictatorship or were there. So yes if the if the You Know Great Leader tells us we're getting rid of our guns that we're getting rid of our guns and sometimes even those guys lose their army and that's when they tater sheds right that in Egypt. It's not what was that seven years ago or something. Yeah Yeah but that that's what happens. You gotta give enough goods to the army like you gotta pay the people well enough that they want to actually go be extremely shitty and do you know how much like money you'd have to pay your typical soldier. Taxi go kill his neighbor. I don't think you have that much money to incentive enough people to WanNa WanNa do and there is something and thank God for this. I mean I wish there was more. I wish this feeling was attached to more things but there is something about the right wing in this country and their guns and that is to them how they define freedom and and how they define their God given right like you can fuck in you know Some some Republican president could lie their their kid into a war and they'll send their kid over. You know it'd be like well. We got to defend this country. My boys going to join the army. You know whatever. And that's and then you know they might be upset about it later. Might vote for trump eight years later but like almost more more than that. I guess but but you know they'll they'll do it but you're not taking their fucking guns. There's a lot of people like like that in this country. Man Like you're not taking their fucking guns they won't give him up and I do think that you know we'll see how it plays out. It's scary when these things even start art progressing. 'cause you don't WanNa see violence man you don't WanNa see that. I know it's real easy for something that people who are like on twitter youtube or something like that get pissed off at the system system and they're like yeah fucking burn it all down or let's let's fight the civil war it's like dude. You don't WanNa fuck you Wanna do everything you can to avoid that But right I guess. I don't think it's going to be the gun owners in America. Who are going to blink on this one? I just I don't think so. There's something about the level of distrust that there is in the establishment mixed with how the right wing feels about guns that right now I think it's GonNa be very tough to who are actually start rounding up guns very very tough but it's it's real interesting to see what's what's going to happen in in Virginia. I don't know it's the Buffalo. Maybe all right All Right Chris Asks Do you think Jacob Horn burgers open boarders. Possession may hurt him receiving support from many conservatives given they are more on the closed border spectrum Um You know well I I've thought about this a bed and you know the it it might it might right. I think that there's so many great qualities that Jacob Hornberger House and so many you know he's so consistent and and is so like Genuine about his beliefs that hopefully he can find a way to Pitch himself to a lot of these people who are really concerned with borders. It's just just or or concerned with you. Know Demographics are concerned with illegal immigration or whatever it might bay It's it's difficult like all libertarian. views views. It's always basically libertarians. Always have the right answer so we have the truth on our side. which is the benefit of Ed Libertarian-leaning? That's like what we have going for us but the hard part is that it's always a tougher sell than just saying that right a law or build build a wall or do this. You know the truth is this look. This is an let me start with this right like real quickly giving my view of the immigration issue and then kind of getting into two things right so my view of the immigration system is like. And we've done podcasts on this before but okay so perfect world the way. Hey that you you solve. This problem is that you have a private property based society and then. There's no real borders accept private property borders and people can come on they. Can you know like any private property. They can come on if they're invited and they can't come on if they're not invited and that's that's what what ownership is it's the right to exclude or invite like that's what that's what exclusive property ownership is and really if you think about it and this is why I think sometimes a lot of libertarians. When they talk about open borders they kind of get it wrong? Like the idea of libertarianism. To me isn't that you're always allowed in any more than it is. You're always allowed out. The idea. Is that whoever owns. It gets to decide like it's almost like asking like are Libertarians. Tehran's for sex or not having sex like open borders verse closed borders. It's like well. We're I sex when people consent to it I you know. It's not one one or the other the current so ideally you know like if you wanted to take real libertarian steps toward toward dealing with the border issue you'd WanNa stop destabilizing the region. Stop having these fucking bullshit coups in Latin America. Stop fucking cutoff foreign aid and the war on and drugs you know like I don't empower the worst elements of it so we have a huge problem with drug cartels killing people down by the border. Okay we'll legalize the fucking drugs man like like take it away from them. It's the best way to deal with this. And but then there's another element to it where you need like abolish the welfare state and you you you need to have freedom of association so like if if some group some towns some group doesn't want Immigrants from a certain part the world coming in well then they have the right to not rent to those people to not hire those people to not associated with them like they have the right to do that and what we have right now. How is the situation where all of that's legal? So the government comes in and says Oh you don't want to rent to this person based on their nationality based on their race based on that that's illegal you have to rent to them. Oh you don't want to hire this person based on that they could sue you for millions of dollars. So the government comes in any legalizes all of the market forces. That would deal with this then. There's the welfare state then. There's the war on drugs and it's a nightmare now. Under all of those conditions to just open the border seems crazy to me like and that's and it doesn't make manny less. Libertarian than some other pure libertarian to be like yeah no this step isn't i. It's like I don't know it's like if I'm like against public schools. I think think they should all be privatized. And then you go like okay. Well we have public schools and I want to open the door for homeless people to come hang out in the classes. And you're like well no. Let's keep those doors closed. Oh so the kids it's like. Oh you're a status. It's like no man. I want to abolish this thing too but the first step shouldn't be opened the doors to the public schools. I don't know like if we're GONNA have them keep keep the doors closed knowing what the kids in. And then what's worked to abolish this thing. That being said the reason why. I don't have a problem. With Jacob Porn Burgers. A belief in open borders is because unlike all of these other guys Jacob Porn burgers right on all those other issues that had just nailed that I just talked about. He's right on all of them like he's like no no no no. I'm telling you we're going to repeal the welfare state. We're going to end the war on drugs. We're going to make a freedom of association legal again and I don't really care about. I'd like having strict immigration controls. Now under those situations I've like I have no problem with that and it's the idea that it's not a concern of mind. That Jacob Porn Burger is going to get elected president. Keep everything else in place and open the borders day. One just don't think there's any likelihood of that happening opening so the idea is like. Do we ever WanNa talk about what the real problems are here. And this is the thing that a lot of the left-leaning libertarian-leaning and a lot of the open border advocate Libertarians. Like they they need to grapple with some of these these issues where it's like the and this is part of the reason why it drives me crazy when they fucking obsess obsess over racism. And Ray. Oh my God racism. This vague boogie man word of racism. Whatever that even means it's like look man if you find an act? Obviously an act of aggression like if anybody's being violent advocating violence or threatening violence toward a different group because of their race. Okay we'll we'll all be right there like calling that out his evil if you find someone acting outrageously shitty let's say it's not an active aggression but just outrageously shitty cursing out some some black guy calling some black the N.. Word or something like that or whatever like yeah. That's fucking horrible. That Guy Sucks fuck that. I'm right there denouncing announcing with you. But if you're just talking this word racism which could mean like I just prefer my own race have an in group preference. I don't really care for this group of people something like that. It's like well. Here's a big problem libertarians. If you hate racism so much if you if you give people liberty to do what they WANNA do a lot of them are going to have in group preference. Sorry now. There shouldn't be forced segregation anymore than there should be forced integration but we can look at the way the market already works and pretty easily deduce that there will be voluntary segregation to one degree or another look at look at churches the best example. It's the one area where there's no forced integration. You can be as segregated as you want. And they're incredibly segregated. Incredibly there are black churches and white church now. The white churches don't call themselves white churches but they're fucking white churches and the black churches call themselves black churches and like I don't know every look at neighborhoods even in a place like New York City this huge melting pot right but you go to neighborhoods. And they're still ethnic neighborhoods all over the place there's still black neighborhoods white eight neighborhoods and Asian neighborhoods in all these different. It's like people voluntarily have their preferences and if you're a libertarian. You have to like at least tolerate that. You don't have to embrace it. I suppose but like you can't like you know if you're trying to like re wire human in DNA. Then that's not very libertarian of you so I'm just saying that Y- people listen obviously in an ideal society you want people to be able the move in. If there's people there to hire them and rent to them and like who wants to folk and see government agents ripping families apart. It's fucking horrible. But but you also have to let people discriminate. And we've made that such a dirty word in such evil concept and and you know like Libertarians. got like wake or just decent people. You gotta wake up like the same people who are telling you that like you know. Discriminating You know is like the worst thing in the world you can do are like dropping bombs on babies babies fucking. Listen to these guys for a second. This is not the worst thing you can do. It's not so evil. You're you're right man as Ma- maybe I would do it a little different. Maybe someone what else do it a little bit different. But like that's that's your right. If that's your business you can hire whoever you want to. For whatever reason you want to literally in the same. This is the essence of the best. The best point that Ron Paul ever made at really was I remember really blew my mind when I first wake actually wrap my head around it but where he was like you know the these ideas of separating rating different liberties like you have your economic freedom and then your social freedom or your political freedom or your this they. There's it's all one unit. It's all one unit. Either you of your liberty or you. Don't it's like individual liberty. That's what it's all about and all of these things I. It's no different than the way a woman should be able to choose who she has sex with a man or a woman should be able to choose who they marry and they should be able to do that for any reason. They want to and if they want to do that. Because they're like am not really that into Puerto Rican guys. But I'm really into Fokin Catholic guys or whatever that's crew in the same way you wouldn't judge that woman like it's the same thing as somebody hiring during their business that's their life. It's their existence. It's their world. You have a right to do what you want to so now. The question wasn't exactly this. I've kind of veered off into I feel about Out Jacob Porn burgers immigration policy. The problem with libertarianism. Right is that like I said the good part is we have the truth on our side. The hard part is that it can be a tough sell. Sometimes and so he's got to find a way to sell to these people who are really concerned with immigration that it's like yeah no I get while you're concerned with this but here's the reasons here's what's really going on and that's the truth. With basically every libertarian issue. It's the same thing is like look you get where there's somebody who's got like really high deductibles really high copays and really high premiums on their insurance and they're like this Bernie Sanders guy is is appealing to me like we got to do something about Healthcare Air now rob you understand healthcare. You understand what's going on. You know to some degree that the problem is not a free market. The problem is the lack of a free market right. And you could. You could be trying to convince somebody will listen. Here's why your premiums are so higher copays higher deductibles are so high. Here's why this industry is is a nightmare and and you have the truth on your side. But what what is Bernie Sanders have on his side. He can say no more premiums. No more deductibles. No more copays. Oh pays I write a law. That says you don't have any of those anymore. Now you have the truth on your side. But she's got a message that you can sell them like one sentence. That's governmental do it. Now it'll be fucking disaster but you have you get where in some ways. That's an easier sale even though you have the truth on your side because you have to. Actually you have to do this. Step by step process like the number one step. Is You have to like empathize with that person. You have to go. No I get why you're pissed off about this and and you're right you're right to be pissed off that these these bills are out of control. But here's what's actually causing that and this is why we need to roll that back. That is like a a multi step process. That's a lot more difficult than just going right a law there. You go right a lot more copays. Can you beat that. I just wrote a law that says no more copays and then you gotta go right but you can't really just because you write something down on a paper doesn't really mean that economic laws don't exist anymore. So it's still gonNA macaw. Something and the costs are just going to be transferred over here. You're going to end up paying those costs and it's just it. Just the nature of the game of believing in freedom is that it's a tougher or sell even though we're right about everything so I don't know if that answered the question or not but there's Jacob Hornberger on immigration all right guys. Let's take a quick second and thank our sponsor for today's show which is mud water. Mud Water is a coffee alternative chock full of adapted INS and Kakapo which has has the highest magnesium and antioxidants of any food on the planet. And no it doesn't taste like dirt. It's really delicious. It tastes like Chai and Cacao. It's really healthy. It tastes is really great. A Cup of coffee has an average of one hundred milligrams of caffeine and about half. The population has trouble metabolising caffeine. If you're looking for some more focus with out outta crash some better sleep at night. Try mud water. This is the best coffee alternative. I've ever tried for people who don't like coffee for people who get a headache from coffee or get generate. You gotta go try mud water. It's really amazing. So go to mud. WATER DOT COM. That's mud W. T. R. dot com one more time that's mud wt the ut are dot com and use the Promo Code. Drink Mud D. R. I. N. K. A.. Mud so you go mud water dot com use promo code drink mud get fifteen percent off your order to great coffee alternative. Give it a shot. This is going to be your new morning. Ritual mud water dot com all right. Let's get back into the show. All Right Colin writes twenty. Twenty is the year of psychedelics. Had A Christian conservatives respond to this is that a thing thing is twenty two thousand a year of psychedelics. Have you heard of that now Brian. Brian doesn't know. And he's my go-to these issues. It's not going to be the year psychedelics for me but it's it could be for you by the way I'm not bashing psychedelics. I'm just done with them. It's like I don't you know I'm having a baby. It just it. It freaks me out too much. Even if I didn't have a baby. I think I might just be done with it. It's just not where I'm at in my life Anymore but having a baby it just freaks me out like what if something happened. I'm all fucking trip and balls or something like that but I did You know I had some really profound experiences on psychedelics. In my life had some some really fun times and some really meaningful experiences. And so you know I'm not. I'm not knocking it. I know a lot of good people who have the head like some pretty intense mind altering experiences and really thought they benefited from it. BABIES TIRED I don't know what are your thoughts on psychedelics. I like psychedelics. There you go all right Robertson coming in so I don't know how this twenty twenty going to be the year of the is that a thing. I think you're just saying that. I don't don't think it's going to be just like every year. Do you mean legalizing psychedelics. Maybe that'll happen. There was that Denver decriminalized mushrooms right. which was pretty crazy? Did you hear about that. Yeah they're decriminalize mushrooms in Denver. I don't know when that goes into effect but it was pretty a pretty incredible and certainly I'm all for that. I mean they should all be legal. I mean that's just insane literally. Just it's it's. It's the craziest of all that. The the fucking hallucinogens are illegal because it's not even like people are getting addicted bitter like killing themselves on that show. That's changing because like I remember hearing as a kid that ecstasy will ripples in your brain and then John I think it was John Hopkins disproved it and now it's one of the major tools are actually trying to use to fight. PTSD and the big thing is that they basically found that it will fire off neurons in your head that you don't normally really have access to in the same way like The electro magnetic therapy when they fucking buzz. Your brains beat depression because it's sparks neural pathways pathways. They don't normally use SA- like ecstasy can do that in terms of empathy and just feeling joy and then all of a sudden you can experience that in your real life so I think or like the way ketamine therapy exists now which I've never done but apparently People are going to shrinks in offices where you can get some special K and you know feel good twitter. Whatever I don't really know but I think the medical science funding medicals is there like like It's like ecstasy. Will throw your spine out of alignment and put holes goals in your brains. And then John Hopkins. University has to come out and go turns out just makes everything feel awesome. Yeah so that I think is the explorer somewhere the medical local benefits of it. The problem is that then that also kind of distorts it because licensing laws come in about who the practitioners are and where you can use it and then all of a sudden you're back within their fucking like an framework You know but that is a problem. Well I'll be watching twenty twenty. All Right John writes. Why the fuck are these left? Libertarians getting so butthurt over Tom Woods. Oh Yeah I don't. I don't know it's really funny to see though I mean the the left Libertarian. Guys like I. I don't really know who who they are. I see you know I've been tagged and a couple of posts on facebook and I've gone back and forth from a little bit like there's one left Libertarian group was was trashing Tom Woods Tom. Tom puts out like an email letter. which guy should subscribe to? If you don't already it's really great baton puts out this email like Like newsletter like whole. Write a piece of cake almost every day. He writes something. I'm always great. And he said thing about how he's like he was like the battle plan of like me. Scott Horton and Tom. Woods and it was about joining the L. P. and supporting Jake Porn burgers run for president and they were trashing. Shing us in. This libertarian. Left Libertarian facebook page and I asked him at one point while I was like I was like okay so So like yeah. You don't like me and you don't like Tom Woods like where where racists or whatever you know like okay fine whatever. What could your problem with Scott? Horton Morton possibly be like left-leaning Libertarians. What what could you promise? Got Horton possibly. And what could your problem with. Jacob Hornberger Open Borders Jacob Hornberger right like what could your problem problem with this guy who were all supporting we'd like. What could you problem with him? Possibly be and they're just like all. These people like Tom. Woods is a fraud. Tom Woods raises on like a okay. Sure can anyone answer my question. Can anyone answer my question. And then finally the guy in the page chimes in. And he's like well listen. I'm not going to like you. You know go. Listen to six hundred hours of podcasts of of Scott Horton's but like you know from what I've heard from people he's like really been like you know saying trump should be impeached and I'm like okay. Maybe you should do some of that homework. Maybe you should go listen to a little bit. Because he's the most incredible human being on the planet and like he's the most important voice is on the most important issue. He's fucking brilliant. He knows everything about every foreign conflict and by the way he knows a lot more than you do about the impeachment stuff too so maybe go here. I'm out on this. But that turned out to be their beef that he wasn't for impeaching trump like not not responding to his argument at all not anything and no one ever mentioned anything about Hornberger like what their problem is. It's something about how he had beef with Harry Brown in the year two thousand or something like they have nothing. I have nothing so I don't know but also these guys are so irrelevant like like he was the he's getting a ratio on his own page. Like it's these guys. There's only like a few of them. Look what's going on is is that we're taking over the fucking party and now people are getting but heard about it you know and so that's that they're going to have to deal with that they're outnumbered did and the where Were smarter and better. I Dunno but jump on board. I'm not trying to make enemies out of anybody who I think might be be supporting hornberger. That's where I'm at right. Now with the libertarian thing. It's like I'm obviously GONNA keep speaking my mind and I just said smarter and better and all that but I'm not really trying to pick fights with with anybody else who's going to support the guy I wanna have a good libertarian moment. We got a really good libertarian candidate. The fucking country needs a message of liberty desperately right now somebody talking about reining in the size and scope of government because nobody else even talks about this shit anymore. So you know even with everything. Trump's going through he's he's fucking re upping the fucking you know the the the fucking. Nda the Patriot Act and all this shit like he's not he. Even this guy won't roll back the spying powers of the fucking deep state so we need somebody making this message so I just anybody who might support him. Okay might support. It has been my take when I like these guys post trashing me. I'm like yeah I get it. I'm I'm terrible and racist and all these things sure you guys should really check out. Jacob Porn bugger. Look into him I I think you guys. I don't think you guys can find anything to have a problem with with this this guy but yet I mean Tom. Tom has become the biggest. fucking recruiter for the Libertarian Party. He's not just the guy so he's made the transition now from being like the intellectual leader of the Liberty Movement to now being that plus the the intellectual leader of the alpay. And and that's that freaks a lot of these guys out so you know okay deal with it. We're not going anywhere it's our party now and I'm sorry as these people like fucking tweeting. Somebody was one of these left. Libertarians was like calling me out the other day on twitter and he was like he was like. It's an embarrassment to our party. That art share would even go debate some comedian. And I'm like yeah. Well then it's really an embarrassment that he'd lose right okay now by the way I kind of agree with you. You're right. It is fucking ridiculous that the chair of the Party is debating a comedian. Absolutely absolutely. It's ridiculous that an idiot comedian like me has. Is this job at all. Yes someone way better should be doing it. It's ridiculous chair is sitting across from a fucking comic having this debate with them. Yeah but you know. What's it's even more ridiculous that he's getting worked? Sorry you're right. I'm just some idiot comic. That's how terrible everything else is. What do you want me to say all right Eric Rights? When are you coming to D.? We see to do some comedy. Also if you do I'll take you to shoot some guns that doesn't sound very DC thing to do. Are we talking about starting a revolution. This is a big Lou. Do I get the feeling. You as a libertarian. Don't have enough guns in your life. I have lots of guns in my Virginia. I've lots of guns my Virginia. The governor doesn't like okay in Virginia makes a little bit more sense. All right Yeah we're actually we've been talking about setting up a GIG IN D. C.. Where me and rob are going to be doing the road a bit more this year? so we'll become an we'll be doing our best to come somewhere near you Casey asked what did you think of. Ron Ron. Paul's Festivus tweet also. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to you Casey. It was fucking hilarious. Did you see that now. That rand Paul like epic twitter thread for I. I guess yesterday was festivus and he just went on this like stating grievances twitter threat. It was really fucking funny really really funny. I don't I can't remember them off the top of my head but has some fucking hilarious shit. He had one that was really great about He goes he goes. I'm lucky the Like something like the FBI didn't find any phone. Conversations between me and Rudy Giuliani. Not that I said anything incriminating Rudy Giuliani. Just that my father would be like. What are you doing talking Giuliani? I thought it was really funny yet. A bunch of them when a long thread anyway. Okay Matt writes rights are call me. fletch on air. And I'll be a lifelong fan boy as if I had a choice. All right fletch. I'll call you fletch Thanks for the question. Fletch What are you doing? In preparation. For the bubble burst investments diversification precious metals etcetera CETERA. How about in regards to possibly breaking breaking down of society? Nothing crazy just wondering What you would recommend especially since you live in New York City? Yeah well truthfully if it goes real bad living in New York City is a is a Goddamn nightmare which is probably why I I plan on getting out in the near future if I can. I mean really what I wanNA WANNA do. Is You know. I'm I'm hoping in the next year or two and hopefully we. It lasts that long to go get a fucking house and get some land. Get Out of the fucking city. I mean not like too to crazy far away but I need to have fucking Anita home and some guns and shit like that because unless you got that there's really there's there's nothing you're doing a prep for this type the situation if you don't have land and guns what the fuck is that all about. There's a great bill. Burr joke about that where he was talking about. Being a conspiracy theorist prepping and shit like that. And he's like you need guns because is everything nothing else means anything. If you don't have guns he was like oh I have a whole self sustaining system in a garden in seeds and all this shit he goes. You just built that for someone else. If you don't have guns they just come take take it from you Yeah I mean I got I got some money invested in in precious metals I'm not in the CRYPTO game which I got it this year. I'M GONNA really try to look in more of that. I'm just I'm really ignorant on that subject which I know a lot of people complain about sorry. I'll try to do better but but yeah I I don't know that's that's pretty much it. At this point. I got a few a few a escape plans. Own Benjamin will have me on his fucking farm if I can if I can make it Out there but if Shit Shit really hits the fan hopefully I got some time to to make it out west. I Dunno you prepping it. All Rob got some sandwiches lined up. Yeah that's the problem with prepping is it's almost like a luxury good that you got to have a certain amount of wealth that you're putting away some well. They have to actually wealth that you need to store. Awesome does not there yet in life but if you got well yeah start doing some of those things get some land. Get some guns gets Manta -biotics put some of it in gold not all gold. There's there's no returns there but you definitely want to store some of that wealth adverse fight. Don't just keep it in dollars. That's crazy well no I. I agree with that I also like still okay fairly recently just over. The last couple of years started making any money at all so I have like I was always aware of this stuff or at least for the last decade or so aware but I was broke his shit so I was like. Well what am I gonNA do. You know But yeah now I have especially now since having the kid I really have fantasies like about like I just really would. I love to have like a lot of land with like a year supply of food and a lot of guns and like fucking medical stuff you know antibiotics and shit like that and just really be like like I want to be as self sustaining and is prepared for anything is possible. It's really you know it's it. The the prospect of all that stuff gets a a lot scarier when you have kids okay. Jonathan Rights Conan Dave. What is best in life? SANTA THING DO I. Should I know what that means. What's best in life family? That's what's best in life meaning purpose purpose family believing in something believing in something more important than yourself. That's what's best in life to me rob sandwiches US already answer for you okay. Jonathan asks what happened between Owen and Joe Rogan. He spends ends half his I g posts going after him. Yeah I don't know man I mean you know you know as well as me if you're following it. You know they they were cool and Rogin him on a bunch of times and then they fucking had a falling out. But I don't I don't actually think it was like in person falling out. I think it was just. I think what you see is what happened. I don't know you know I. I don't know exactly what what happened there. I think that Owen tends to or at least he he did. Maybe he stopped doing this. But Owen tends to like put people on a pedestal. And and like when he if he feels like somebody's like really noble or honorable he like really like puts them on a pedestal stool and then if he feels betrayed he fucking goes scorched earth and is like really like what. Fuck that guy and I don't know if he does that as much anymore but I think to some degree. That's what happened with with Jordan Peterson and with Rogan. And you know I don't know I mean you know I'm kind of just speaking out of my ass I mean I don't really like when I talked to Owen. We don't really like talk about that shit so I don't know I've never had a long conversation with him about it. I don't exactly know I'm just going off like the streams that I've obscene and stuff like that but I don't know I love both those guys and you say I actually actually heard Rogan. Defending Owen. the other day I saw a clip of at where someone was saying was Elisa. Slesinger was on the show and she was saying something like she said something. Like Owen Owen started going crazy when when he was like bashing trans people and Joe was like well. No I mean. He wasn't bashing Trans People. He was saying that four year olds shouldn't be like their parents shouldn't be making four year olds trans and Rogan's like and I completely agree with him on that and I thought that was cool because because you know like Joe didn't have to do that and they have like a weird thing between the two of them so it could have been easy for Joe just be like yeah you know not not like agree or disagree degree but he went out of his way to be like now. Let's be fair. That's not what he was saying. which is what a fucking a aside from the Rogin Owen thing which you know? I don't really have anything else to say about it. But what a crazy thing that you could take the position that four year olds shouldn't be like transitioning genders and then someone goes. Oh remember that time he was bashing transpeople. Is People like Bashing Trans People like. I don't really think that's what he was doing as much as he was saying like. Don't abuse children a controversial statement. These days I guess Josh writes why aren't any of your clips from Fox Fox or CNN on Youtube. Can you start wearing a Yarmulke to make fun of bench here. I'm not sure people would realize that. I was making fun of Ben Venture Bureau if I just wore a yarmulke. I think I'd have to you know. Make it a little bit clearer. Somehow I think I I think there are some clips on Youtube. I don't know I don't know dude. That's that's fucking and you know they they do what they do with their footage But I think if you like you can find stuff online if you if you like Google Dave Smith as he cup. I bet they'll be clips. Does that come up on something or other. Maybe not an youtube. Maybe I'm like social media sites or something like that but I think there are some that are on youtube but I don't know Josh writes. It's a what's the best Christmas movie What do you think rob going? Good Christmas movies self comes to mind. I don't know what the home alone I guess. I loved home alone. One answer. What are your other big Christmas movies? Well there's like the shot shot your I al with what's it called It's a wonderful life is that that's the one where they have the great bank scene at the end where he justifies fractional reserve banking. Really ever seen he's like they all come. There's like a bank run and they all come out for your money and your money's not here. Your money's with Steve and Steve Starting form then your money's with jam and Jen starting but they kind of make it seem like fractional reserve banking. It's just everyone else in the community and everything like that. I just WANNA be right there. I go I want my money faulk. Jim Is far. Give me my goddamn deposit but Let's see what else. It's not a good Christmas movie. Thank the what's the best Christmas movie. She said Christmas vacation Christmas vacation. Now that's a good one now. There you go Christmas National Lampoon. They're go on that one. I don't know somewhere for Christmas. I can't remember. I just remember the first one when they go wally world and then it's closed. But then they hijacked John Candy and then they have a nice time on the roller coasters. Together are all right. Yeah that's sorry for your kids. Merry Christmas okay. Ethan writes rights are what are the biggest flaws. In the Libertarian. worldview biggest flaws in the libertarian worldview. And it doesn't attract enough hot women. That's that's an issue. It's that's an issue for sure as you know I got one real attractive woman but I don't think I got her from the libertarianism thing. I got her in spite of it. You got to recruit them from the outside and bring them in. Yeah that's that's that's what I did. Dick Soothe recruiting from the outside and then put a baby in them. Yeah that's my. That's my at that point. They gotta go along with your Libertarian Bullshit. Well I'll be honest. I don't look at it this way. I don't know that there are any flaws. AUSE in Libertarian. in a libertarian. Worldview or like in Libertarian philosophy that aren't just flaws of people like people are flawed and if given their liberty some people will do flawed things it again. It's not. It's not a utopian philosophy. It's not that things are perfect. It's that things are natural and that's we you have to to some degree work within the world of reality. I guess it depends on what you're talking about right. Like in in a libertarian worldview. So to me. My the biggest flaw that I see with Lake as Chomsky would call really existing capitalism awesome right. It's like capitalism as it exists as it's been practiced in in real life which has never been anarchy capitalism really It's what it's been in more is I don't know republicanism. Maybe you could call it. But the problem with like limited government right is that that it creates a tremendous amount of wealth which then creates a huge tax base of of relatively speaking wealthy people. That can then we'll stomach taxes increasing and then and then the government increases and then you have the story of America basically. We're like then it's just like it's much easier easier for the government to do a little bit more a little bit more a little bit more and then when the government grows. It's got this huge wealthy society as a tax base that so it's an enormously powerful state ends up getting created and then all the special interests come in and all of that stuff so we're actually special-interest probably drive it to begin with but so that's a real problem with like. Capitalism is is big big government In terms of just libertarianism just with adequate capitalism or or if there were a true Minorca state that remain main small to me. The flaw or the the biggest problems with the society are the problems of wealth. You create a tremendous amount amount of wealth and when you create a tremendous amount of wealth there are. There are some issues with that People you know it's like when when people get very very comfortable when people get very wealthy in many ways they kind of forget what built that wealth they forget. What got them there? You know like like everybody knows it's sometimes just having more stuff Doesn't lead you to being. You know more fulfilled. I don't know so there's issues with that you know like there's like like with any system there are issues but I you know it's like Thomas Jefferson said I'd I'd rather attend to the problems of too to much liberty than to those associated with two smaller degree of it like I'd rather have the problems of wealth than the problems of poverty. They're a lot better to deal with. But it's there's there's problems uh-huh in life So I I don't know I mean I to me there's the actual philosophy of liberty doesn't really have any flaws to it the flaws those are that it's working with human beings and humans are flawed. You got anything on that one Desmond rights out world. War Four will be fought with sticks and stones. Einstein would agree with you. All right Sean writes Do you think Democrats in Virginia are insane enough to start the Biglou. We kind of already covered that then. Josh rights how much do you WANNA bet. He doesn't know what the Bug Louis. Hey Listen Josh I do know what the Bug Lewis. And then he makes fun of me he quotes and goes. Hey guys. I'm a thirty something year old dad. I'm not I'm not hip to these kiddos. Lingo go these days. Listen I knew Bugalo all right. I've seen but I think I knew it because I asked Brian what it was at some point I think I think I just saw people tweeting about it and I was like what the fuck is this bigalow and it was like us. That's the revolution and I was like. Okay I get it. Yeah what do you want me to tell you. I'm lame okay. That's part of my appeal these days. I'm book alluring all day long Yeah but I don't know is when I started this podcast I was the young cool. Cat around these libertarian in parts. But now I'm an old fart. So you know deal with it. Nick S Did you enjoy Eddie Murphy on. SNL last weekend just saw it and thought it was pretty damn funny. Is he a guy who influenced you at all. I didn't I didn't see. I saw one sketch on Youtube that I thought was pretty funny but But I didn't see I'm interested. I'm interested to watch that. I'll watch that at some point this week. Did you see it. Would you think now good. It's not that it wasn't good that firstly I remember a couple years ago I murphy and he just ended up doing stand up when he was getting an award and he's got the world's greatest voice box and man when that guy turns it on. Nobody's she's funnier. Knowing performs better the opening monologue h was clear that the writers wrote they're like cheesy row style jokes for him so it wasn't like Eddie Murphy. Doing stand up and then. He almost copped out of doing a full open. Because Chris Rock and Dave I saw all just came out it was almost like they're just paying tribute. Everyone's everyone's Patriots Eddie. Murphy's The fucking best. He's coming to us now. I want to see him do. SNL then he also just Kinda did a highlight of all of his characters. Which I didn't grow up with so I'm so I'm sure for some people? It was just this kind of nostalgic but to me it wasn't like he came out with hot fire original stuff. The one moment where I thought he really clicked Teddy Murphy and it was just fucking hilarious. was doing the gumby things thing on a weekend. Update and like he just killed like he clicked into when he's like a powerhouse. But only like I kinda give it a B.. I mean any Murphy. It is not like a huge comedic. Influence Moore groped with his movies and his standup. But he's one of the best ever to do it as a performer can just hop into characters. I mean he doesn't need my endorsement spent on SNL. It wasn't like all talk Eddie. Murphy's Backer Holy Shit that was biting Eddie Murphy Satire Jokes. Yeah yeah well look I mean to say you Eddie Murphy. Hasn't someone who had like a particularly huge influence on me. I wouldn't say he had none at all. He's Eddie Murphy. You know what I mean. He was like the biggest comedian in the country. When I was a kid but from movies really but a role in delirious I remember watching them as a kid I mean I just? I thought two of the best specials ever and had great movies. I mean like really great movies like I loved DOC coming to America and trading places so fucking funny I haven't watched either in years. I don't I don't know if they'd hold up and I'd still think they're afraid but I loved him as a kid But not like a particular influence on May We're just me and you are so different. stylistically from him but yeah he's Eddie Murphy. He's like one of the greats you know. Oh him so. I don't know I'll I'll check it out. I'll watch it and make past updates. I don't know what sketches they did after that. All right all right What do we do when the civil war starts asks Dante We go and be like please. Liz Eat some chicken zone. Yeah I never thought that the the moon landing was real always thought the world was this is when we become Benjamin we become serfs to Tallin on short. I think you're the wonderful. Let me get some your chickens please. Yeah you're too short for. I don't know he won't let you in the house. Short enjoy outside live in the chicken coup or something like that. Yeah it's going to be It's GonNa be rough going for Rob Bernstein Look man once it gets to a folk in civil war. It's the the question is what you do before that you know like it's once it gets to that area areas that's bad once you're getting shot at it's like I don't know grab a gun and shoot back with what you do. It's You you really really want to not have a civil war That's why I've been advocating for quite some time for like a peaceful disillusion of of the nation. You know go our separate ways way better than civil war but you know. I'm not sure which one is Is more likely. I think you're GONNA get a civil war because I I actually don't I think the right wants to aggress against the left. I think the left would be willing to aggress against the right but it would need government to do so and even the people with arms and government government lean. More right that is that is the big issue which is nullifying civil war right now. That's as you said it perfectly. It's that the the left wants a revolution revolution. But they don't have guns. The right has guns and they don't really WanNa Revolution at least not yet And then the left wants the state to to be their guns. The problem is that the cops and the military aren't exactly lefties and so they're not very likely to lead the revolution for Your Gender Studies. Major Social Justice Warrior. It's the it's the it's the most hilarious part about the left. Like what they don't even see at all they're always calling for more fucking government guns and you're like that's the cops. Did you ever hear the fucking are Scott. Horton said at one. One Point I forget what shows oh I think it was on Sam triple show that he was on his really great interview That Sam Sam I love that guy and Scott. Horton of course is the Great Scott. Horton Horton but he was talking about how it's got so like on point with so much of this stuff but he was like the real problem with black lives matter was naming themselves. Black lives matter. I like if they just made themselves like a police accountability organization. It wouldn't have alienated everybody else and basically told them this is our group and it's not your were problem. It's our problem and he was talking about when the Bundy ranch thing happens and he goes. This was the perfect time for black. Lives matter to be like yeah. We're with you you you know like this is exactly what we're talking about. And instead they were like Oh see when it happens to white people blah blah and made it. There's like adversarial thing and and you're like what are you talking about. These leaders of black lives matter. who were like tweeting at the Bundy's and he's like Oh man you know white guys can stand with their guns? They have black is ever did this. They'd Moas all down and and all this and it's like you guys are so obviously like should be sympathetic to each other like this is the perfect. You know like like bill build a bridge. Why are you fighting eating with these guys? And they said he said he saw one of the black lives matter movement People tweeting and they tweeted a picture of one of the people at the Bundy ranch bench and they were wearing a fuck. BLM Shirt and he goes. Well look at that fuck black lives matter right from the fucking Bundy ranch. Guys and Scott Horton had. It's a tweet back. The Way Scott describe that he was like a young lady B. L. M. is the Bureau of Land Management Aka. The COPS OPS. He's not saying fuck you okay. This is your partner here like okay. This is not somebody this is this. Is your fellow traveler here saying fuck the police not you. Okay like Shit like that. Is You know that's fucking. It's just unfortunate but that's the fucking world we live living. Okay Joe asks. How did Robbie come to be known as the fire? Also recently. Tom Woods said you you have more listeners than him did he get that right if so congrats if not be better all right fair enough So how did you come to be known as the fire bad case AH syphilis. That's exactly right. Yeah it was really burning and I was walking around. I was complaining complaining. Planning complaining and Lewis is like Ravi the fire. Hey Go Louis did w rob the fire right. And where did that come from. Just set it on his podcast a million years ago. Yes just sit down it just darkening and it just stuck there you go the genius of Louis J Gomez. It just fucking stuck as far as me having a bigger audience than Tom Woods. I I I don't know what if he said that or not. That doesn't just doesn't sound right to me doesn't sound right Tom. What's the Tom Woods? fucking general the non the soldier so doesn't make any sense to me Alright do one more and then we gotta get Outta here. Another one about Virginia to did it did it did it did. Ah Let me find a good one Will the student loan bubble popping. Be Good in that it may sway people from going into comey us. All across the country commie universities Yeah well I think so. Absolutely look man. This is a and Peter Chef. Used to say it this way and I thought it was the best The best way to look at these things if you want to really understand it but the recession is painful. But it's the good thing like the recession is the cure. The bubble building. The bubble is the disease. He is and the recession is the cure. So it's like it's like taking your medicine. It might be bitter. But that's the good thing to do and there's a lot of pain gene in taking your medicine but that's like that's good and so every bubble bursting is ultimately the best thing that can happen to a bubble level. It's better than it just getting bigger and bigger it might feel nice while the bubbles getting bigger and bigger. But that's not good so yeah of course it would be good if this whatever it takes to kill this this fucking bubble would ultimately be the good thing. Yes you're literally have kids going six figures into debt to learn that there's no such thing as gender like of of course anything that puts a stop to. That would be good. So that's that's my answer. You got any thoughts on that. Yeah don't kick off the hook for the debt they took on. They paid to go to summer camp camp identity and I want to be ahead of them in life. No well I agree with you on that but the the bubble bursting isn't necessarily the same thing as debt forgiveness. You know I'm not. I'm not rooting for for things. We'll go oh hand-in-hand quite possibly it might just be unavoidable But yeah I I do agree with you that I don't WanNa see debt forgiveness all right. That's our show for today. Thank you guys so much for listening piece.

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