6 Episode results for "Bruce McArthur"
Serial killers and their victims
"Hey before we begin. I wanna let you know about a new show from curious cast that I think you might be into it's called Russia rising Putin's Russia has been accused of using internet. Trolls hackers and even assassins to influence the west this new investigative podcast hopes to unravel. The giant mystery that is Russia with the help of those who know her best Russian trolls. Hackers Putin supporters and even a former KGB spy, join global news Europe bureau chief Jeff simple on a journey to find out how Russia has gone from tenuous ally to a potential global threat. Listen to Russia rising for free at curious cast dot CA or wherever you're enjoying. This is why. I was in a position bound and ready to be killed. I was just a lucky what Canadian serial killer. Bruce MacArthur has pleaded guilty to killing eight men. Now Canadians will have to figure out how to remember those victims without breathing life into the memory of his heinous crimes. I'm Nikki right Meyer. And this is why. starting in two thousand ten men started to go missing in Toronto. In the years that followed a pattern started to emerge. All of these men were going missing from Toronto's gay village. There was rumors of a serial killer. Rumors that police played down. But eighteen years later, they would arrest Bruce MacArthur and now sixty seven year old landscaper. He would eventually be charged with eight counts of murder, as you know, on January. The eighteenth MacArthur was arrested. He has been charged with seven counts of first degree murder in relation to the deaths of Salim Essen, Andrew kinsman, Seru schmo. Moody, dean, Lissa wick Majid's, Cayenne scannon Ratnam and do about Sierra face new charges against Bruce MacArthur, an eighth murder this time victim who was the man in the photo that police had released sergeant Hank. It's Inga gave some details on who. The man was. I can our report that the remains have been identified as Karusa Kumar categorized. Go. How did he do as lure men kill them dispose of the bodies? Well, one man who knows more about MacArthur's process than anyone else is Sean crib? This ban has been in the shell of a person that used to be an my confidence. And and they mourn for the loss of what it used to be. Sean was close to being one of MacArthur's victims and narrowly escaped with his life. He gave an exclusive interview to global news about what happened that day. It was a beautiful sunny day clear. Clear clear sky, Sean I met Bruce on a dating app. They chatted back and forth. But they didn't meet in person until the summer of two thousand seventeen. It was daytime meeting we supposed to be there about to meet him about twelve noon. I believe I went designating meeting place, and that's when I got in his truck when I got in the truck I had a conversation with Mr. MacArthur about a serial killer being large when I said, there was a serial killer. He didn't respond. Bond. It was just like the conversation kind of went into what he does for living. And they made small talk about how Bruce had a roommate but not to worry. The roommate was at work when they got to MacArthur's house went to put on the things that he. Sweet Braun, and he makes me. A drink. This. Drink contained GHB butts. Sean new the drink had GHB NS GHB is a drug that causes euphoria. Put you at ease and makes you comfortable and a little bit of heightens the sexual encounter. There's a fine line with GHB distant date rate drug if you go over if you know what you're doing. You can certainly. Doc, someone unconscious very easily. That day. It was agreed that I would submit to his experience that had been indicated on his profiles his his big things as I know them were. He liked to bind submissive find their buttons that he could push find what their edge was. And then push them over the fear that I started to feel uncomfortable. Dave for the first time was I couldn't breathe. That's I have memories of of not being able to catch my breath throat the beginning. Early on. And that. Made me uncomfortable and put the rest, I win flying up that I that it wants to go home because he wasn't. I felt respecting my limits. He was. Basically. Raping throat. At this point. I started to sweat quite a bit. Which for me would be indicated that had in larger dose than what would normally when I started to feel uncomfortable. I think at that point that may have been the point where it was too late for me to know, what was happening to degree because I think I add may have gone unconscious. I know there has been evidence that has been suggested by the police that I was unconscious and evidence there is. Definite signs that I was in a position bound and ready to be killed. Who is in pretty much for lack of a better term kill position for him. And. I why stopped. I don't have all the information. The police have all I can go on what I think and it's the rebate coming home. Interrupting hit whatever his processes or his ritual and. God for me. I don't know how long I was unconscious. But at that point, I could hear the roommate was home, and I did say to Bruce. I said, oh, your roommate's home? Starting to use this as my way to like and this and. Gathered by stuff, a don't remember getting home that day. I don't remember how I left hadn't dawned on me how what's danger? I was in that day. And how close I was. To not coming back. And that is also something that haunts me gives me guide mayors this occurred in the summer. Halfway through the summer. And the police contacted me the day after his arrest. I was with my partner, and I had brought an article out without a picture of Bruce and said, oh, the the serial killer and then a few minutes. Maybe fifteen twenty minutes later, he comes down to the bedroom with tablet with full pitcher saying this is the man that did it and I. Oh my God. Do you have an open relationship and it works quite well for us. The only thing that particular day the rule that I broke was I didn't tell had where we going. Dot something. That's very hard for me today because I would've. Heidi gone through. I would have just disappeared. The police said found photos that MacArthur had taken of Sean while he was unconscious before the roommate came home. That's how they knew to contact Sean after they arrested MacArthur, and that's how they knew how close Sean had come to becoming yet. Another one of Bruce MacArthur's victims. Don't go into these things thinking it's going to be you you hear about them having to other people. But it's just still blows me away today that this happened to me, I was just a lucky one. That's all the cabin. Anyone? Coming up later in this episode. I wanna talk about one of the victims rather than talk about this dirt bag that everybody else's talked about enough. How can we remember a victim of crime without breathing life into the memory of their killer? You're listening to this is why and national radio show and podcast from global news. Download and subscribe for free on apple podcast, Google podcast or wherever you download your favorite shows. Now. Hi, I'm Mike Brown. I am the host of the dark Poteen God cast. So you're a guy that knows a lot about Canada's darker history while I don't know if. Yes. I am not guy. Mike's podcast dark Putin. It's like a cousin to this podcast. Maybe even more like a sibling to this podcast were both in the curious cast family, anyways, I've been interested in ever since I was a little kid. So I actually was the victim of a couple of violent crimes when I was a younger person. So while one of the things that happened to me when I was younger is a man attempted to abduct me when I was eleven years old. So. You know? And this was all during the time that Clifford Olson was doing his thing is when I had my experience so emotionally by I'm all tied up with that whole situation. But that's why I became really interested in crime and its affect that it has on society and people the victims and their families. So that's why we approach our podcast the way we do and on your show, you do talk about the murders. And the and the case is that have happened in Canada. But you also I think quite a bit of respect to the to the victims of these is that's what our that's sort of our mandate is to do. No harm. You know pe-? These people have been through enough. We do bring up cases that some people are starting to forget about for example. And I don't know how this has happened. But some people didn't know who Clifford Olson was and Clifford Olson was always horrible monster who lived. In Surrey c and did his nastiness in the lower mainland here killing eleven children. We found that some people didn't even know who this guy was so as a result his name is not only forgotten, but these eleven victims are also forgotten. So when we did our when we did our episodes on that we approached it from let's talk about these victims I and not even name him until later on when the police are kind of onto the sky. So we talked about him as the monster. And we talked about are victims as a young boy who's nine years old. Didn't really do anything other than wanna go for a bike ride and see his buddies and disappears. So I think that's what gets forgotten a lot of times. We've heard a lot lately about the Ted Bundy tapes on on net flicks. And how people are upset that the victims did to get more attention. I I totally agree. I think there should be an hour long show on each one of these people who get who could take away rather than talk about this dirt bag that everybody else's talked about enough. And you know, it's I'm I'm a little emotional when it comes to that stuff. But but the way you approach it. I think is is very honest to the way that these cases unfold, you know, I it first happens with one victim and the next victim. And then the next victim. And when we talk about a monster. Like Bruce MacArthur starting in the early two thousands. It was right. One victim went missing a next victim. Yes. Went missing. Yes. And it wasn't until you know, my Jenky later. Centrally exactly the actually found out the monster was yes, exactly. Let's talk about. The Bruce MacArthur case who is Bruce MacArthur. Well, Bruce MacArthur is now a convicted serial killer of eight persons from the LG btcu community in Toronto. He was also a landscaper. He was also a dad he was always eas-. Also, a grandfather he was a family man, who somehow, you know snapped. I have other opinions on on where he started. Because if you look back there are there's quite a lot of unsolved murders that they believe were happening in the nineteen seventies in Toronto in that community. And and then they all of a sudden stopped typically when it's. Believed or it has been believed when a serial killer stops, it's because they're in jail or they've died, however, BT K and the green river killer have proven that those two things are may not be the reason maybe these guys are trying to stop on their own. And they have you know, tried to have a normal. Life and MacArthur may be one of those guys who he got married, right? He had kids, and then he had a focus that kept him away from that life, but over time that obsession that he had with with murder and deviant sexual behavior. Drove him back into doing the things that he was doing. He ended up being divorced after his kids were grown. And and I think that's that's probably part of where it's just like. Okay. Now, I can go back and do my. Thing. I don't know. We've talked about his job a lot when discussing this case. And that is for well, what has become a very obvious reason was a landscaper and that ties into how he hit some of these bodies. So essentially, what he did was he had access to this property that he wasn't just there landscaper, apparently he took care of this property for people when they were traveling as well. So he would look into making sure that everything was okay. So he had access to a place where he could be all by himself. It was quite isolated be all by himself and not have. People breathing down his neck, it wasn't his own home. So he didn't he wasn't afraid of giving himself up there. So essentially what he did is he buried. Seven of these men. He dismembered them in buried them in various pots around like flowerpots, and and in different places around the yard, and they found after he started talking. Down in the ravine from the home, they found another body which brought his total to eight so. Do you think that one day Bruce mcarthur's name will fade away in the memories of Canadians? Probably hopefully. I don't know. But at the same time, those victims of his something, I don't know. It's it's really tough like you want that guy never to be erased from history kind of thing. But if you do that, then there's those other eight people of the who also disappear. Well, that's the fine line. Isn't that you don't want his name glorified or his name to be remembered? But if it's forgotten are his victims as well. So what's the best thing? Then that we can do to make sure that we keep our focus on the victims. And not forget their names. We'll talk about who they are talking about where they came from talk about the things they like to do when when I read a true crime book. That's kind of my age is how much attention to this author pay to trying to figure out. Who this young lady was who make picked up by a trucker and murdered. You know, did she prefer apples to oranges kind of thing? I I wanna know those things so I can I can connect with that person as as a real human being and not just as you know, a murder victim. This is why is produced by John O'Dowd n me. Nikki right Meyer. It's a national radio show and podcast. Download and subscribe on apple podcast, Google podcasts or wherever you download your favorite podcast from a big special. Thanks this week to the guys from dark Putin. That is also a curious cast podcast. It's all about true crime. And like you heard they really focus on the victims story, you should give it a listen, and you can find it wherever you're finding this show online. Thanks for listening. And I'll talk to you next week.
Introducing Uncover: The Village
"For seven years men were vanishing from Toronto's gay village. The community always suspected a serial killer. And they were right in the new season of uncover the village host Justin Ling investigates to spates of brutal murders forty years apart. This is episode one. How can you not see this? You can hear the second half of the series right now at CBC dot CA slash uncover or wherever you're listening right now. Maybe you've seen the headlines in February two thousand nineteen Bruce MacArthur appeared in Toronto courtroom. He was sentenced to life in prison for killing eight men. Macarthur's conviction answered some questions painful questions ones that had hung over Toronto's queer community for years, but it also reopened old mysteries. Mysteries that go. Back decades to a time when being gay meant being a target to win the community had to defend itself because police wouldn't when the closet was for many just a safer choice than coming out to a time when queer people were winding up dead and their killers were getting away with it. Our story starts in two thousand eighteen. Green yard if flowerbeds. This is the section in the middle of it. They tore up last winter and Doug down a few feet took weeks. Of course, they don't call this powdery road area for nothing to ground is wrong. It's a sweltering day in August. I'm in the backyard of tucked away house on a quiet street in Toronto. Here was all green until they came two weeks ago. You can imagine the mess. That it made Karen Fraser lives here. She is an unlikely central figure in this whole story. She's showing me your garden, or at least what's left of it. England can side of this hill. I've known Karen for the better part of year. She's slight she has a head of swept back red hair big Brown eyes, and an oddly endearing sense of humor that is what kept her saying. I think throughout this whole horrifying ordeal. We have deer. Come now. Her secluded backyard slopes down to a pair of railroad tracks beyond that is a deep ravine. Eliminated. Yeah. It's a leafy hideaway in the city. It's also the perfect place to avoid being noticed. Compost pile in the corner for leaves in the fall. And apparently it had things. And then over around here, we'll have to the whole reduce data kits for the major. Just a month before investigators were here combing through her yard her garden and the wooded ravine below they sifted through the dirt and the soil one bucket at a time painstakingly looking for clues it would become the largest forensic investigation in Toronto police history. They scoured it basically scoured it all the way down, but they didn't find anything back here in the end. The dead. Basically all over the ARD cheese. We had a lot of lilies until reply Phillies. Karen is trying to help me picture her yard as it used to be. There were flowerbeds and big colorful stone planters. To daffodils along near lots of Perry. Wing coke. I like it because it starts very early in the spring. You get something all of this was designed and maintained by her faithful gardener, Bruce, and he took good care of it. It was quite lush should Bruce. How does run of Karen's backyard conscientious? Very professional very talented, very kind. Their families had known each other for years. We got a call from Bruce sister saying that her brother had just purchased a gardening business. And she said, I understand you have a double garage, and you're not using it. So simple arrangement. Sure he could store his things in our garage. If he would cut our lawn when we went away on the weekends in the summer and over the years he expanded. He decorated all pots on the property gave us things at Christmas. Yo- it just it grew. Was never social. It was just a nice working relationship. Simple. Not complicated. But it wasn't a one man job. What do you remember about the people who went the hand when he was landscaping your place? Many of them were. Obviously newcomers some were quite shy. Most we saw once sometimes just head of hair going by the window holding up to hanging baskets. We didn't actually meet him at all. I think of all the men who met the horrible fate. I know I met one I think I met a second, man. One time very shy stared at the ground, and Bruce, and I were bantering back and forth. And I could see that demand. He had with him was staring at the ground and laughing because he found it funny to second man, I really felt sorry for him. He was off to the side. And Bruce was annoyed with him said. He's just not going to work out. Since all of them appeared to be amateurs or or very new. I didn't know what this poor man had done. His clothing was not as nice as many of the other men, and I felt bad because he seemed to be really trying had no idea what he was doing and about a month later. I sent Bruce in Email and said, so how did your new man work out? He didn't respond, and it was never mentioned again. Memories of these men stick with Karen. She tells me she had forgotten their names and their faces for years. But now she can't stop thinking about them. All because of what happened on a cold day in January two thousand eighteen about ten thirty in the morning. There is a severe pounding on the door. So I came down expecting a delivery and look to the street, and I turned and two men in navy blue and one of them said, are you Karen Fraser, are you? Karen Fraser, you've got five minutes to get out. There's been a serious crime. Bruce MacArthur has been arrested. My name is Justin linked. This is uncovered the village. I'm an investigative journalist, and I've always been on the lookout for stories that have been passed over or forgotten and four years ago. I started working on a story that was both look good people. Just don't disappear cars located, but he was nowhere to be found. It's it's kind of like, I feel terrorized a string of queer men of color had gone missing from Toronto's gay village between twenty ten and twenty twelve for a time fears of a serial killer stopped the village, but the fear faded away the police closed their investigation the media moved on. Still those disappearances nagged at me. This was personal. This was my community. It started to become clear that their sexuality and their skin colour made them easier to forget easier to write off. But I never imagined where the investigation would go just how awful it would get. This is a story about missing men. Yes. But it's about so much more than that. It's a story about homophobia and violence against marginalized people. It's about a community that demanded answers and didn't get them until it was too late. Right. Toronto's gay village is only about three city blocks. The main focal point is the intersection of church street and Wellesley street. It's not hard to notice that you're in the heart of gay Toronto. There are pride flags hanging from shop windows and telephone poles. And as you walk up church street, there's a bronze statue of Dafur man with a flowing coat and a walking cane. And then there are the twenty foot tall poles. They're decked out with giant rainbow spirals and on the top is a shimmering disco ball. They're supposed to welcome everyone to the church and Wellesley village, they are incredibly Godley. The gay village has been around in one way or the other since the nineteen sixties early on. There was just a few discrete bars. And then there was the gay friendly travel agency, and then the clothing stores queer as folk a TV show that ran in the early two thousands was set in Pittsburgh, but filmed almost entirely in the church and Wellesley village. For lots of people the villages, a sort of refuge. There's plenty of village residents who were born outside of Canada. But who've adopted it as their second home, others are pats from small town candidate like me, and like, Joel. I started seeing him around the local pubs are unsure street. He kind allowed character. And so am I guess that's Joe Walker came here in two thousand eight from Anna toba, he's very vibrant person. He was constantly laughing. He's talking about his friend scanned arosh. Never everything was hilarious in life. I loved it. And for it. If I was in a bad mood. He would draw out to me and the IB fine to his friend. He was just skin to he had come to Toronto from three Lanka or he had fled a decades long civil war. He lived just outside the village and had a wide circle of friends. It is the same man. Karen Fraser, remember standing in her garden years ago? Like, so many people in the village, Joel and scandal were transplants. We started playing pool either the together or something we did it as a hobby. And I was I wish he was here to hear this giving him lessons because he sucked up first. And I'm HIV he came over very long way, very fast. I need is. Then he started being me. And it was it was like the teacher are getting beat by the student is a really good feeling. And and so like, we bonded the majorly over the games trying to funny, but is it possible? He was a shark that he just you know, tricked you into thinking there's no say, so I wish you could say so I need to hear. But no, he was not that good. And I handed it to him every time. So where would you go to kind of the same couple of pubs? What what? Definitely was our mean spot zippers was a community institution some nights. It was a piano bar others. It was a dance club. But on Sunday it was retro night. Retro night was a sort of Sunday service. It was a mix of those who came of age in the seventies and eighties dancing alongside nineteen and twenty year olds who had just come out. If you didn't get there early you'd be stuck waiting in a line that would sometimes wrap around the block, but zippers was also a place to just shoot pool of friends. There's another pool hall rate on church street than a cat. I remember for life. It's called is it the one upstairs. Yes, pegasus. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Pegasus though is still open with four large pool tables in the back and cheap pitchers of beer every night. As they spent more time together, usually playing pool Jolan scandal became increasingly close, but they never dated they worked each other's type. Me and him kind of no interested in shelter. He was into something completely different than I was. And I was too. I mean, I sure I found him attractive, but I I loved him like a brother I never ever looked at a different way scandal was tall dark and lanky. You couldn't miss him. So it was pretty unique unique style. Absolutely like, he was very fashion forward. He had a lot of jewelry. He wore jewelry on every rings on every finger multiple rings like to choose three sometimes on each finger it normally sounds away over top Gardy. But for him it worked with his nationality. I didn't see anyone dressed like him. He dressed like a part of our culture, but the part of his closer with a part of his own mix. I love fashion a great deal. And so it inspired. It always inspired me to like wind up. But I didn't have enough figures or things to do. So. He was definitely into an older gentleman. Type he had a name for them is called silver Dadis. That was his thing. He is very intrigued and attracted to them and everyone in the my ever met was fine. Except for one person was very very jealous and very very obsessive and controlling and who was that boost McArthur. So how often did you see I McArthur around? He started coming around when scandal was out later at night. He was there every time, but he never went to the normal bars when he was Bruce he mostly stayed with him. I guess at the his home or at the eagle, which was our other bars very dark. It's going nice people in there and everything like that. But it is a very good place to hide and the autonomous. And then so what was scandal? Lakewood bushes around a he was constantly to he was constantly trying to console and reassure him that things we're finding that. He was not looking at someone else in that. He was just with him at first I didn't realize what they're arguing about. But after a while it was happening so often that I I could see his face. He was almost frantic to make sure that he was okay. And Bruce was always looking like he was ready to leave and always like in service scolding type of way talking down to him. He just he always wanted to make them. Chase them all the time. So. Was jealousy. I think he was his way of control. I kind of faded from him at that point for a little while of hanging them, we still play pool not every day to honestly it actually stopped being everyday for. Well, he was with predominantly. And then all of a sudden, I did see him. But he was talking about him at the time. Like, I was with Bruce. What do you see guys kind of like when he wasn't around? I try and give them the gears about him a little bit. And he always like, oh BRUCE'S this. And he's, but you know, he's got a good heart. And he always good people. Joel was nearing his wits end despite scandals insistence Joel nude that Bruce was bad news as the weeks went on that summer scandal was around less and less. He was with Bruce. Joe made another effort to see his friend, and he showed up for a game of pool, but it quickly had to leave. I think he's not called by Bruce, and he just left really fast. And I remember thinking like this is getting worse how he's just ninety giving your crop. I remember being a little upset with actually the week or two before because he was just collecting everything that you don't be does and thinking he could he could just come back to me. 'cause I'm sick of phony him China sets things up, but he's never showing. He's never. Doing what he said he's going to do it. Just changes t- complete changed overnight. Scandal didn't show up for work on Tuesday, his friends couldn't reach him. And when they checked his apartment they found. No sign of him. He he'd gone to poppy recently, the husky. And that thing would go everywhere with them. It was like alpha his best friend. It was a beautiful dog. And the next day when came about that he was where we supposed to be all over the place for the tire day. It was brought to our attention that his wallet ID dog. We're still sitting at the house. Skinned friends. Didn't know what happened? But they knew something was off. They covered the village missing persons posters. The even searched nearby refines conversations wet shove fluff too. So you heard he wants to go off like that. And started everyone would change. I came down to the play bar. It's it's like a big O dry. Creed bar had there's a cork board downstairs of listening people at concerts and events and everything like that on there. And I saw somebody ripping his pitcher down because they didn't know. And I took their papers rip them half all of them. Put his ripped page back up there. Really really loud. And I said this is on here. It was becoming an anchor of not knowing there was just nothing to go on. And it was just like he was just picked up off this planet and taking by something we can alien abduction or something like that. Because that's how just hop. It. Just the guy was in everybody's life. And he was a major part of the seed he came through different worlds all at once at he somehow fit into all of them and. Just. Watched closer. Skinned Araj never at was seen leaving zippers on Sunday night Labor Day weekend, two thousand and ten after one of those icon ick retro nights. I was told you Slough seated Bank actually under some Bank CARA taking money out with someone else. And they couldn't tell who it was. Yeah. That's what I thought. Joel says police found security footage of scandal withdrawing money a few blocks away shortly after he left the bar. That was the last time he was seen in public. Who told you that? I think it was just France like really really close friends is out for hearing exerts for what the police were telling them. So you're anything about what they would have said about the other guy that was on the security, but they couldn't see his face even like height build it had to been hand. I guessing I mean, there would be no reason for it to be someone else. If he went missing that day that was a day. He went missing for a reason Joel says that chrome of information is all shared when you're dealing with the gay community. There's some hard feelings from what's upon a time. Forget that. I remember thinking like you just don't care because his his sexuality and whatnot. But I really I know that they had nothing for the longest time. Joel didn't have any answer says to what had happened. So we had to come up with his own explanation. I had to come to some sort of was that he had to relocate. That's where I left to auto. Vicki that's that's why would stay with that. He just is there some days going to get messages on my Facebook. And it's going to say, hey, I'm okay. A forty year old man from three Lanka vanishes from Toronto's gay village. He leaves behind his wallet. And his newly adopted poppy is left without food. He was in a controlling relationship with an older, man. It was mysterious. But it was only one case. So child's property sits dirt road, the very end just on the water. It's pretty secluded. Pretty quiet. Little. Kyle Andrews was a transplant in Toronto's gay villages. Well, he's originally from a small town in Nova Scotia. And that's where I find him. Hundred meters you will arrive at your destination when he was in Toronto. He was an activist and a familiar face on church street. Now he's living a quieter life in rural Canada. Used to go to zippers on Sundays to dance in the back and sorta hang on the other side because I was nervous about dancing until you know, good east coast boy couple running cokes and few years or shots. Something coolers, probably then and just felt like when being gay wasn't cool. It was like a camaraderie. I'm here because I want to know about Maggi K on known to everyone as Hami. Cayo and honeyed we're close very close. And then at. Either the black equal or Timothy's because we've known each other so long and. He seemed to be alone and. I thought it was tracked and said hi and over maybe a year and a half we traded phone numbers starting to hang out and whenever we'd see each other at the bar by other drink him. And I had connected because we're both Ghana in the corner. Vire cells. Honeyed had come to Toronto from Afghanistan. And even though you think Afghantistan, you don't think there was a disco scene. But there was we would be listening to the radio like chum FM would have a lot of eighties hits. And it'd be like all I knew the song. And he know all the words, but he would know the artist, and he could sing he could belt out a song quite well. And. He would play for me. Some records said he would scrounge up through, you know, friends at the kebab house Hammeed fled Kebble amid war but found refuge in Canada. When it came to Toronto, he came with his wife and kids, but within a few years honeyed realize something about himself. He was gay. Well, he had said to me that when he first started to explore who we thought he was as a gay man, he would go to openly spa, and that was kind of a mishmash of different cultures in Ganz straight. Eventually Hamad left his family, home and moved into the village. He began living his life as a gay, man. But still honeyed struggled to find peace. He came all this way to be happy. And he still hasn't happy. He couldn't come up to his family. He couldn't really be himself to everybody that he cared about. And that defected him talk about his wife and kids I actually met his daughter wants and his son, and he was very proudly. And I think it was just hard for him because he knew quite possibly they wouldn't accept him back if he was true with them. You don't think he ever told them that? He was guy. I know that they had suspected because his daughter would ask questions, and he would ask me. Well, how would I respond, and I told them? Well, that's for you to decide if it was me, I'd say this. But I've been pound in my little gay drums since I was nineteen and you were forty some years old coming onto fifty and you're from a strict religious background. And I just know that that he would feel that was impossible. Hami to spend a lot of time at the black eagle. That's probably where he met Bruce McArthur. You see Bruce? And I mean together often a few times second last time. I saw humming. He'd was with Bruce MacArthur in his apartment. And e- kind of freaked me out because we were hanging out and. News and marijuana. And we're having a little bit of good time listening to the radio and being intimate and Bruce MacArthur comes to the door, and he'd had a couple of drinks Neum. So I think he didn't expect me to pop in and Bruce was supposed to meet him later. So Bruce came in and was all upset, and he left, and I would have been upset too you show up at a at a dates house. And there's another date there. What's going on at the time? The interaction didn't mean that much. Kyle just went back to Nova Scotia that summer as he often did. But when he tried to reach Hammeed, he couldn't, and then I left him a shitty voicemail shortly after that or in the middle of the summer about how I was pissed off that he wasn't calling me back. I was kind of where he got the drugs. Kyle kept trying when he came back to Toronto that fall. He kept calling. He'd never answered the calls. Went straight voicemail. So you've been trying to call him. You know, how it happens in gay community before Facebook. It used to be a friend would die. You'd never know until you run into friends at the baron the. Oh, yeah. So and so drown or the died. HIV your cancer, they moved away or whatever. Toronto's queer community has dealt with a lot of loss. LGBTQ people. See higher rates of murder and assault. The aids epidemic wiped out thousands from the community over decades. And sometimes people just pick up and leave Kyle has experienced all of those realities, but when he came back to Toronto a few months later, he was still looking for honeyed. And eventually he found him just not where he expected. I he's walking down street, and there's this pitcher on telephone. It was a Toronto police poster in the picture I made is wearing a crisp navy suit with maroon pocket square in a matching tie his smile's crooked and his left eyebrow cocked upwards his full beard is almost entirely gray. But it wasn't just Hammad's picture on the telephone pole. Next to him is another Afghan national emigrated to Canada Abdul Basser feisty. He was known to his friends as just bass here. He was also a regular in the church street bars, which was a shock to his wife and children. That's who reported him missing. He didn't come home from work one day. He went missing in December of two thousand ten just three months after scandal disappeared. In the picture Bassey wearing traditional Afghan dress, his salt-and-pepper goatee matches his black and white tunic. He has a big grin on his face. The third photo was scandal. Scandal is smirking from underneath a tightly trimmed goatee he has a gold earring in one ear and his shirt is open at the top button. The similarities aren't possible to ignore three middle aged men all with Brown skin. All with facial hair. Above each of their faces in red block letters is the word missing. I saw the poster in I called my good friend Christian Annely what the fuck man. Why wouldn't you tell me where it was all over TV in the news? And I was living in a tent in Nova Scotia when I was there. So psyche is in some other guys, and I go serial killer. He probably. Please from fifty one division. Where can missing today hoping these posters will jog someone's memory in a strange case of three missing men, whose only connection seems to be this neighbor. Did not know each other, but they have similar appearances. And they were not. News vans, lined church street and reporters set up on the sidewalks interviewing anyone who walked by about the disappearances. It's hard to think that they're not connected somehow by something. Plenty of people saw the connection. Mita hands is one of them. She's a longtime activist and is well connected in the queer community. Mita invited me to her home. Just south of the village. She's got a wide smile, and she's impossibly friendly. Are you? We're on meet is back patio. It is so hot. I have to keep wiping sweat from my forehead. Sure. Thank you. Indian drink it cools you down like nothing else in summertime. Mita has this wonderful habit. She'll go out of her way to introduce herself to other queer people of color. She sees on the street. That's how she Mets Gandak. A friend of mine was also, oh, we were outside exchanging dog stories shopping at the market and scan the happen to be by. And when you see another Brown queer person as Brown queer person, you get really excited. My god. Look, there's one more 'cause we all know each other and recognize each other and watch out for each other. That that level of connection that's instantaneous of knowing each other's struggles. And he was luckily really like dogs. And then we started talking I had a German shepherd at the time and she really liked him. He was very good with her. He had connections to the community. He had roots here. But that's not somebody would leave. He had given up a lot to become a part of this community. Number red flag when we didn't show up. Red flags everywhere. You know, I know people I was checking in on when the third person the second person had gone missing going. This is similarity and you kind of look like that you're Brown person with the goatee and be careful be careful. And people don't just they don't get up in their apartment. They don't get up and leave their their friends. They don't get up and leave their community that they worked so hard and lost so much to form that when people go into the village it's to seek out something that is not available to them anywhere else. People don't get up in and leave all of that. Without saying goodbye is Mita. Mita Kyle so many others. They all came around to the same conclusion that something was very wrong here. Everybody who saw the posters brought up specifically the word serial killer. I remember hearing it poster serial killer poster serial killer that this is not chance. This is not a lover's quarrel gonna ride this is a pattern. This is a definitive pattern. But as the community came around to the idea that someone was targeting Brown, gay men police were still reticent initially. I think the tones were very civil asking for help asking for knowledge -ment asking for spotlight to Sean on this. Because obviously there's something going on. And when that didn't happen. I think the tone became more urgent and more animated and finally the tone became very angry of wire you not listening. If we see this is happening if everybody we know sees that this is happening. How can you not see this? Why are you not seeing this? How can you not see? This is exactly how most of the community felt it's exactly how I felt. But the police weren't seeing it or if they were they weren't saying so publicly this is officer Tony Vela speaking to queer newspaper extra in two thousand thirteen those are just the similarities between all three men. This mean, anything it's still unclear at this point. It could mean something, but at this point is still unclear the theory that's to be driving the police investigation. And the media coverage is that these men just took off maybe how meat and Basser went back to Afghanistan, even without their passports, maybe scandal skip town. Maybe nothing bad happened at all what we're looking at right now as a missing person investigation. That's what we have is foul play suspect. It's still unclear so right now a task force of officers have been assigned to the investigation the following on all different leads trying to turn exactly what's happened to the three men, and they don't even know each other. There's no evidence. This is just a even knew. So that's what's concerning here. But the key thing is urging anyone that we know who three men are if you haven't contacts police police give us a call, regardless of if you think formations relevant or not call us. Kyle did call he sat down with police to try to help solve his friend's disappearance. The first investigators did an amazing job like they didn't make me feel intimidated like I talked about sex and marijuana and booze in gay village. And they didn't bad ni- or anything you want a coffee, you they were very professional about it. And so, you know, how do you know, how well did, you know? I mean, do you know in of his family you wear you seem last what was he wearing? What did he do for work? Where do you come from? Where do you go? Where did you mean where did you spend time like a lot of questions? It was about four and a half five hours spent with them. Did you mention versus neighbor? Did you say, you know, I said that the Lhasa my talking, and then I gave a physical description I tried to look them up on the internet. And that his name was Bruce, and I didn't know. Oh, surname. I gave them not really enough details to track them down. But they had said that they had other people mention, and they even tried to leave me on like, do, you know, kind of work. Do you do like side with flowers or lawns was Arborist? So they somebody else had talked about, Bruce, but they didn't have enough juice to go. So what are the first interviews? You did they had said, oh, we know that this person's another friend of one of the other guys had mentioned, Bruce. And they didn't give me enough details. I mean, one of the other men had dated Bruce the last time I saw that's what happened with BRUCE'S there. Kyle sat in that interrogation room and gave police the name, Bruce that piece of information that name was a huge tip. Bruce, the landscaper who had dated scandal the one who had been seen with Hammeed before his disappearance that could have been the tip the cracked the case. But it didn't. the police task force set up to investigate the three men had a name project Houston as in Houston. We have a problem. A year and a half after it was started just months after Kyle sat and then tear Gatien room project. Houston was shut down. And in the village men would continue to go missing. Coming up on the village. Oh, yes. So why don't we just dive right in during the investigation. It was discovered that through was two more missing gay men that had the same church heuristic and scandal. So they had MacArthur on all trio. The village is written and produced by me, Justin linked Jennifer Fowler. And Aaron burns Cecil for nana's is our audio producer Sarah Clayton is our digital producer additional production on the sewed by David McDougal. Tanya Springer is the senior producer of CBC podcasts, and our executive producer is our if neurotic. To read more about the series or see photos of people in this episode. Check out our website at CBC dot CA slash uncover. Or join our Facebook group uncovered to be part of the conversation.
A killer pleads guilty and a city exhales
"Take. A city exhaled yesterday just a bit, but it was badly needed. We myself in the investigative team are pleased that Mr. MacArthur has pled guilty today. Sparing the community and those who knew the victims of lengthy trial. I believe that this is the best possible outcome for the families and the community. For about two years in Toronto. It is felt like the overwhelming question around the crimes that led to Bruce. Macarthur's arrest has been how much worse is this going to get we started wondering at with dread after dogged reporting made it clear that men were vanishing in the church street village, three men disappeared over two years span. But it's only now that investigators are now making any kind of connection we asked the same question after each new cry for help from the community the fact that there was a serial killer that was out there the evidence does not point to that the evidence does not suggest that we wondered it after every please press conference. I when they said, there was no reason to believe there was a serial killer operating then this morning at approximately ten twenty five AM. Police arrested Sixty-six-year-old Bruce MacArthur, he has been charged with two counts of first degree murder in relation to Mr. kinsman. And Mr. Essen, we wondered it after every revelation made plane just how long the hints and the warnings had been there. Wait. Thing for investigators. We wondered it after every new charge every new body. Every announcement the police were spotted back at the Mallory crescent property where the remains were found and every time we asked at brought a new lurch of dread for the city's LGBT community for the families of the missing and dead men for Toronto which could only stare in horror the specter of a public trial loomed. Like, a gavel all the evidence will be laid bare the vultures of international media would swoop down on a grieving community. Imagine all the columns and opinion pieces, and the creepy fascinated voyeurs learning about how the victims were stocked and preyed upon it would have been a circus, and it would have broken Toronto in a very real way. So yes, the guilty plea that came Tuesday meant attentive shaky ex now the city will be spared at trial, though. So a different question needs to be asked. Maybe it won't get worse. But how can it get better? How does the city recover from a crime that fractured and already tense relationship between the police vulnerable community? How does the space lake Toronto's gay village that has served as a beacon for so many people fleeing prejudice and judgment start to feel safe again? I'm Jordan heath Rawlings. And this is the big story moment Karachi is a reporter at six eighty news. He has been on the ground covering the MacArthur trial since the arrest been to almost every hearing. He's had since then I met him is to one or two along the way, but pretty much everyone and made many visits to Mallory crescent. Yes, there were a lot of whispers well before the arrest that something was happening as someone who's who's a general assignment reporter for for a newsroom, we'll kind of whispers, we're going on around there. And what have you heard? Well, I mean, it was it was definitely something that was being talked about a lot particularly in the gay community in the village here in Toronto, you know, men were disappearing from that community people were feeling unsafe. There was a lot of talk about their potentially being a killer. The community was calling for kind of pushing police to look into it. There's some push back from Toronto police against it. And then, of course, their worst fears realized when MacArthur was. Rested of the we'll realized before that. But they came to fruition of being a real thing. When when the police finally arrested MacArthur, it feels like that was a moment that something change in the relationship between the city's gay community and the police, you know, it's it's definitely a relationship. That's been inflexible. We see evidence around this case. And then if you look at the ongoing back and forth about police in uniform participating in pride, right? They've definitely had a fractured relationship. Over years. You go back to the bath house raids that happened a few decades ago. So the relationship between the gay community and Toronto police has certainly been fractured overtime. I think Toronto police are at this point right now, hyper aware and have worked really hard over the last year, particularly the detectives involved in this case and really being in touch with the victims families with the community trying to reach out trying to get the information they need not only to solve this case. But also at the same time try to mend some fences and move forward. I mean, I'm not deep inside the community enough to be able to say on behalf of the community going. But I. Just over in the periphery having covered some of the stuff that is a little bit of what's happening. Take me inside the courtroom yesterday. What happened? Well, it was you know, it's really interesting if we could just go maybe two a day before that sure it was kind of surprising because I like I said, I've covered almost everyone of the hearings and even the last year which was just a couple of weeks ago is early this year Lee twenty nineteen the lawyers had said in the in the detectives had said that oh there's no plea yet. And in Canadian law plea, generally happens closer to trial date, just kind of the weeks and months leading up to trial the trial date had been set for January of twenty twenty. So we felt that a plea could come in a guilty. Plea could come but not until probably much later this year. So on Monday afternoon when police ended up that release that said just a heads up for the media. There's going to be a significant development tomorrow and to most of us that meant that a plea was coming in most likely a guilty plea. It was pretty surprising. I mean, it kind of caught a lot of us off guard that that's how quickly it was going to happen. And then in the courtroom, they had put us in the largest courtroom in the province because they clearly were expecting. There to be a a large crowd. And there was pretty much every seat was full. So was there's obviously a lot of journalists. But there was also lots of friends and family of the victims a lot of the police officers that worked on this case. The detectives the ones that were at Mallory doing all the digging and the excavating and a lot of the groundwork where there so there was a lot of people who had a lot invested in this outcome in the courtroom. And it was very interesting to see the procedure because I've never been there for an actual. I've inner for a guilty verdict of never been there for guilty plea, and it was interesting because going into the courtroom, nobody would confirm that out. So it's going to happen. So we all kind of expected it to happen. But when the judge finally kind of he kind of rolled into very nonchalantly this judge that was up there. He's kind of stuff covered cases where he's he's been up there, and he's very in control. But he's also very relaxed when he does it. So there's no like big dramatics when he does he's very calm. Very casual. And you know, he kind of MacArthur was standing there in the in the holding box, and he just said to him. Okay. We understand you want to plead guilty. And that was the. Time for us that we had heard it. So we all kind of like sat up, you know. It's like, oh that's interesting, and he basically outlined for MacArthur. He said before you do it. I have to kind of give you the rules. So I have to explain to you that you do not have to do this. You have every right to go to trial stand trial, and then have the verdict came out. And he said she said, so you're waving that you understand that. He said, yes, I understand. He said nobody is making you do this. You're doing this of your own volition? He said, yes, I understand. He said, do you understand that by pleading guilty here that you are essentially agreeing to a life sentence in prison because that is the automatic conviction for a first degree murder. He said, yes, I understand that. So we kind of laid all these rules for them. Right. And then he said, okay. As long as we have all that understood that you know, what you're doing. You're doing it on your own sound mind in judgment. Then you know, the core. I don't know what position yet, but somebody in the court in the courtroom, basically, then reads out all the charges one by one. So he wrote the dates the times the names of each of the victims and then asked him on this count. How do you plead on this can how do you plead in each time MacArthur in kind of a very soft? Voice said guilty each time. And so it was a kind of surreal in a lot of ways to see it. Because I don't think since he was arrested. There's never been any doubt that he did it right because police were very confident. I think they had all the information. You know, they had all the evidence all the stuff for Mallory. So as a pretty open and shut case that he he he was the one responsible, but it was still very strange to see him up there and confessed to it and really kind of seemingly out of nowhere because even afterwards detective Dickinson who was one of the lead detective on the case along with inspector and Singa. So that we may never know what his motive was or why he came forward, and and just decided to plea who were the victims because I feel like we're going to say Bruce mcarthur's name fifty thousand times today and nobody's saying name. And I I feel the same way, you know, I it's having covered this a lot. I try as much as I can to put the names of the victims and their because you know, they're the real not only victims here with the story as well. Yeah, they they should be the story. So their names are Cerruti scandal. Never Ratnam of the Besir fi. Karuna Canagaratnam Salim s Andrew kinsman Cayenne and dean, little wick. So those are eight men murdered over the course of seven years between two thousand ten and two thousand seventeen most of them with connections to Tronto gay village and from the LGBTQ community some of them had been in Canada for a long time. Some of them had only been here for a short time MacArthur, basically set up meetings with them and took advantage of them. And and committed murder, you mentioned how much evidence there was. Yeah. What does it mean? And how important is it that there won't be a trial? You know, I think it means a lot I just from a personal point of view as somebody who's covered murder trials covered. Some pretty heavy stuff before you know. I was covered some of the Malarde hearing covered the Mark mood. So hearing from start to finish. I was there for some of the Tori, Stafford stuff that stuff can be very graphic, very emotional and very heavy on your brain on your heart on your soul. Really? If you have to sit there and here, and that's just as a reporter. On the periphery kind of just hearing the details. But if you're if you're a juror just an average person from the public who's pulled in from this out of your, you know, you have no choice in the matter years kind of pulled in as as a civic duty and your put on that jury. If you're a lawyer, if you're somebody who has to be part of the courtroom staff, if you're a judge any one of those people, and that's to say, nothing of the family and the friends of the victims who are the real people you have to think about an scenario like this. So the fact that none of those people, particularly the family and friends have to sit there and here day by day because that trial was suppose was expected to last three or four months. Yeah. So that would've been three to four months of every day reliving part of that story. And we still will hear some of that stuff when they read the statements of fact next week when he goes when he goes back to court next week, but it won't have to be on a day by day basis for four months. You told us about the mood inside the courthouse as soon as that court, let out what was the mood outside. Like, what are how are people reacting? Are they are they relieved because I feel like yeah. I feel like. The city is relieved. I think relief is is a good word to pick. A a lot of people are relieved a relieved in a lotta ways. So I you know, I was looking at a lot of the Toronto police officers a lot of the detectives they seem to have a weight off their shoulders. They know their work is done just yet. But you know, I think they're relieved that they don't have to go through this whole process over the next year and a bit that they've been able to bring some relief to the families. Because even though I would I would guess that most of the families of these victims know that MacArthur, did it it's another thing for him to stand up and say, I did it. Yeah. You know? And that he didn't even have to be convicted that he stood up and said, Yep. I'm the one that did it. So there is a certain amount of I think relief that comes with that. I don't know about closure. I think closure can take a lot of time in several years. But in the immediate aftermath when we walked out into the hallway right outside the courtroom. You could see a lot of people breathing easy. I did see a few people leaving the courtroom with tears in their eyes, and those are some of their friends and families of those victims. Understandably it's a lot to handle especially since they read those brief statement of facts with some of those kind of. Really disturbing details in it. And then outside the courtroom, you know, detective Dickinson talk to us. We also spoke to the woman who owns the house on Mallory crescent, and she was so well-spoken and eloquent and well-thought-out. I don't know if I believe in the word closure. I think possibly easing is all all you get. For me closure won't happen. The way I'm trying to look at it. The man, I knew actually didn't exist. So that's the best. I can go with this is someone else entirely. Her name is Karen Frazier and she lives with her partner and she lives in that house for years. She is sort of one of the people that is sort of almost an accidental victim. And all this. You know, of course, the eight men who were murder the actual victims, and their families are the ones that are suffering, but for her she just kind of like an accidental victim because she had struck up this kind of agreement of relationship with MacArthur where like they would go away and MacArthur rich take care of the property when they would go to their cottage. And of course, he completely used her to to hide these victims and stuff like that. But you know, she had the misfortune of meeting a couple of the men that were murdered and and having to live on this now infamous property and to her credit. She's really trying to take ownership back of it. You know in a in a sort of figuratively, obviously, she still owns the property, but she's trying to make it that it's not just the property where McArthur hid the bodies of these eight victims of the remains of these. Victims that it's her home. That's a house of love. I can't remember what exactly it says. But she painted this beautiful kind of statement on her garage about love and kindness. You know last week on the one year anniversary of MacArthur's arrest. You had a a lone bagpiper common play on her driveway and invited all the reporters to come out. And the few people spoke what's going on in the community on church street because that's been a I mean, if it's been awful on anybody besides the families, it's been that community. Yeah. I mean that entire community. No I for for for years. There's been talking about this like we mentioned, you know, they've had a bit of a fractured relationship with police, and well, they were yelling about throw people going missing you ever months and year. Really? Yeah. And especially in the early months of this of this stuff. So I remember in January February March of last year, there was a lot of people that would come to the first few hearings for MacArthur, not only to see him. See what he looks like? And be a part b. For the hearings, but also to speak to us afterwards because they wanted to voice their displeasure with the with the police and kind of say we've been telling you for how long that this is a problem. So now that he's pled guilty. I think that it will be really interesting to see how the community reacts to this. How they go forward. How the relationship with Toronto polices. I think the chief chief Mark Saunders is very aware that that relationship is fractured at the moment. You know? Of course, we add in as an adjacent thing to what's happening with pride and uniformed officers not being allowed to March. So how closely are those two things tied together. Because it feels like a lot of the lot of the relationship between our on both sides. Yeah. I don't I don't know. Like, I mean, I'm not a member of that community. So it's it's hard for me to say, I don't think you can say, they're unrelated. But I don't know that they're completely joined at the hip either. But I mean, look those are two prominent things that affect the same community in our city, and they kind of tie into the same thing in the sense that people from the LGBTQ community feel that they're. With Toronto police in the way, they're treated with Toronto police isn't what it should be or exactly what it should be. Or isn't where it needs to be. And that it needs to get to that place. But it's not going to get to that place overnight. And it's going to take time I interviewed Olivia who is the executive director of pride last week. And she said, look, it's we've closed the door for twenty nine hundred police uniformed officers will not take part in this year's parade. And we don't know about the future. But we want to have that dialogue and work, really hard. So in this case with with the MacArthur investigation now admission of guilt, I imagine it's also the same thing that it'll take time. The police can't snap their fingers and make it happen. And nor does the community, you know, have to open their hearts right away and forgive. Yes. It it'll take time it'll take time. And and it's not for me or anybody else who is a straight or not of that community to say that they should hurry it up. It's you got they got there when they got there. And they gotta work it out with Toronto police on their own even beyond the church community. This seemed like a crime that kind of horrified everybody why did? Everybody in Toronto become captivated by the MacArthur case. Yeah, this is certainly one that gripped everybody. I don't think only in the city, I think really coast to coast. Yeah. But particularly in the city for obvious reasons. I mean, look LGBTQ community because it directly impacted them and members of their community, then you have to remember that MacArthur was a landscaper. So he was working at dozens of properties across the GTE. So it's it's possible. If you own a home in Scarborough or Togo or new market or wherever he possibly did work on your property in are there if you had kids, and they were running around playing outside or something. And he was there, you know, let's kind of thing that can potentially keep you up at night, or at least give you the shivers was entwined with the city. Yeah. He was he was a mall Santa in twenty seventeen weeks before he was arrested for murder. He was the mall Santa at age Cornell and Scarborough, so there is parents out there who potentially had his photo up on their fridge with their kids sitting on his lap. You know, and then, you know, just two or three weeks later you're looking at. That photo. And that guy is in prison awaiting trial for murder. I it's it's one of those things that can really rattle your rain and kind of scare you in effect you and even if you weren't directly impacted by the landscaping or the mall Santa or being part of the Q community. He has that we've all seen that photo of him smiling. Niagara Falls, you know, he just looks like a guy that, you know, even people that knew him say that he was really friendly guy. He's a really jovial guy. So it kind of creates that you do you really ever know somebody what is a lesson that the police the city and everyone else can take away from how this happened. And why it was so long to be discovered. Vo, you know. I think I think there's lots of lessons that can be learned in even detective Dickinson side that there's a lot of lessons to be learned. I think you know, they have to really work on Trump has to work on the relationship with the LGBTQ community. I think that when people are making those types of cries, maybe you have to really look seriously at it a little quicker, and I mean, it's easy for us to say because we're not sure on police, right? We don't know how often people are calling them saying that something's going. When someone goes missing, everybody calls, the police, sure. But it's it's there's there's a lot to be learned here in terms of heating people's warnings paying attention to certain communities police once they were on MacArthur trailed really did a good job in terms of tracking down and arresting them. And and you know, all the evidence they put together. But I think this is a case that isn't closed by any means because even you know detective Dickinson talked about how they're still looking into cold cases. They're still talking to other jurisdictions because they don't know because MacArthur hasn't really helped them out. That was my next question. Right. So he pled guilty to eight murders. Right for almost a year. We kept hearing the police are back searching for more remains in. There may be more victims does that stop. Now what happens next? So a number of times over the last year or some of my colleagues when inspector it's anger has spoken to us. Have asked is MacArthur being helpful, and he doesn't ever want to talk about it? He's never really addressed that question at least in any of the scrums that I've been in. And I think. That's partly because MacArthur wasn't being helpful right? And wasn't telling them anything. But now that he's confessed to it. And and pled guilty. It's possible that could change. I don't know. I'm not on the inside. But I know he didn't really he didn't from what I know. He didn't really help them out a lot over the past year. And that's why they were going through one hundred different properties. That's not. That's not a exaggeration that has an actual number. They were looking at over one hundred properties and the GTA and just beyond the way that he had worked at if he had helped them probably wouldn't have been that big of a number not to say that you should necessarily take the words of of an accused killer. As fact, but I mean, I don't think he was really helping narrow it down. So I mean, I guess I Trump lease may get some help from him. Or maybe this is all he did like just just he he committed eight murders. And and that's where the list stops. But I guess time will really tell and the agreed statement of facts will be out next week sometime. So next week's going to be a big week in a very emotional week. It was a little emotional in the courtroom. But next week they're gonna do the the restatement of facts, which is going to be very Indy. Detail about the eight different murders. What happened how it happened? You know, all that kind of stuff and then also family members and friends will get and read what's called a victim impact statement. And that will to address it directly to Bruce MacArthur. He is also I believe that appoint gonna be able to allow to get up and speak. Whether he will won't we don't know. So it's going to be very very emotional. That's expected to last three days next week. And then after that, the judge will decide what the sentence will be an he'll come back at a later date and decide what the sentence is. And they can decide to do a consecutive a concurrent, right? Some some mishmash of that. Either way. Whatever the decision is made. It is highly highly highly highly unlikely that Bruce MacArthur will ever get parole to walk up the doors of a prison. Whether he gets one my sentence or doesn't matter. He's never coming up. Thanks moment. You're thinking. Momen Karachi is a six eighty news reporter. That was the big story. Brought to you by Scotia. I trade you can visit Scotia TriCalm to start direct investing today, and you can visit us at the big story podcast dot CA, or along with our brother and sister shows at frequency podcast network dot com. You can hit up contact us forms on both those websites to tell us about stories. We should be covering. I'm jordan. He throwing thanks for listening. We'll talk tomorrow.
Side Stories: Human Dolls
"Hey, what's up everyone in Ben Kissel? And with Marcus parks. I then we're going to talk to you a little bit about Ebeling its top at it's the political show that Marcus, and I do it's a lot of fun. If you wanna get up to date on the weekly news of politics. Check out the show. You know, I think you'll like it. I think you'll like we're reasonable people or five people were five people. So that's good. So check it out because there is a lot to unpack. And hopefully, it helps you get through your week. So hail yourselves everyone. Thanks for listening. To escape tunes used the lost casts on the left side stories. That's one of the cannibalism started. Oh is that a bad warmer? What it was was interested. Hey, what's up everyone? Welcome to side stories. I have been kissed with Henry's Nebraska live from LA. We'll come. He was criticizing the coffee machine because it's a nicer, you don't have a coffee machine though, or no, we don't we have coffee. There's so much on a coffee store, you go to go to the coffee shop or you're gonna get the Starbucks in your frozen in the in the grenades grenades. She doing the right. First of all what you're doing is. You're you are a contributing to your carbon footprint that is true in debate. That is a problem. He's just shit. I've actually had a lot of issues with my carbon footprint lately, it's large. It would take five earths. Really? It would take five earths. If everyone consumed as much as I can do you put it into it. It's an algorithm you put in like how much plastic do you throw away? How much food do you consume? How much do you fart per day? And then they say it would take five earths. If everyone consumed as much as you consume. So I am part of the problem and then working on it. Do you just sit in your living room wrapped up in a pierced like old, Katie pool like a plastic? Kiddy pool is everything just made out of all the takeout containers in your house like what are you doing? You dislike just take a Starbucks? And you take a sip out of it and throw behind your shoulder. And then buffing goes new have her like, you feel them. Fool up in boy puffins is a boy number one. Are you one of those that gets mad about people who I don't care? I don't I don't because you never know. I'm not looking at it's pussy. No. You want me to go like Zola's things AUSSIE? No henry. I don't want you to do. Manners. Honestly, it would be problematic. If you demanded to see my dogs genitals, though, I would have to say like this is a big. Let's see you get hard. No. We don't have to do that. And I don't even like the conversation. I don't even like to entertain the conversation. I did have a question though. And this is a legitimate question for you Henry, and it starts with the sentence. Is it racist say is this racist yesterday? I was walking around downtown, Los Angeles. And I saw a black fellow with the exact same build and wait as Kevin Barnett. And I wanted to give them a hug is that racist? You just what you you're just making somebody somebody who they're not in order. It's more. It's not about race. It's about a weird deep longing. Sadness trying to create something out of nothing. Okay. Because I felt like if I go, and like technically, I would just be a costing this man with with with an affectionate hug, but he would just maybe not be like that happy about it. Thank you. I would put it on the same line as weird miscellaneous crime. As if you. Got from Josh Rabinowitz, some of Kevin's close, and you stuff them with pillows and stuff, and you'd like hug that I would say it's all that would be a massive problem. We are going to get to a story, similar dwell. Not really that Ciller to that. But we're going to be going to Russia here at a second. They also want to talk about how scared you are of just cars on the road. You come out here. You literally took an Uber from your hotel over to the studio because you're in town for the Kevin Burnett memorial show that stabbing tonight you this released tomorrow on Wednesday. So this debt, you didn't come home. I did come. And it was lovely to see rates you. But you were an Uber. And you're just like all these cars go, and so you live in New York City. This is actually what you're from blink Kester, Pennsylvania. No, go if you were in a fucking carriage wasn't lucky enough to be Amish. But I was. Amish. Are you kidding me? Too hard nothing. They don't work. They is weren't nobody really work make their no reds. They know they buy them. No. But I saw I saw the show the Amish mafia show. Did you see that reality show Natalie worked on it? Really? It's all fake. Oh, my of course. But it is fricken. Ho, Larry, I know how the Amish are. I know how the Amish don't even they cut corners they cut corners. I know. I know I know they're fuck. They can the thing is in my car. I was on the phone. We were doing a group called because this is so interesting for everyone to hear. But I said we're going to hundred and five miles per hour. We were going to hundred and five, but it was Kalaam. I don't know why her her speedometer was in Columbia. That's an illegal Chinese car. Will once I once she dropped me off. She's like this is kilometers, by the way. I heard you talking. So that's why I thought it was like we are really going fast here. And but because I'm like one hundred and five and then of course, we're passing us. I'm like, they must be one hundred and thirty. So it was a it was a it was. Obstacle allusion sleepworks. Yes. You wants to go. On audio. And I'm like why the hell anyway. So that is the massive. I think we were just doing their normal Spielman, but it's sixty bucks Mary who was producing here at sixty five miles per hour. That's we were going so impassable like seventy miles per hour, but seem and Astor because my head. I'm like that's a big number. Anyway, I was in tesla the other day. Oh, because the like we took it an Uber. Fucking tesla showed up and we got in it. And I will say it is kind of like that. What goes like you? Don't know you're going eighty five miles an hour. But you don't know it just tesla anything I want go faster, man. I know faster. I know you do Dave I'm gonna take I was driving a Jeep for poor KB's funeral on. When I got I got a Jeep. I tell you one science about a fucking Jeep. Honestly, it's the Yukon to everybody's afraid of you. That's what's nice you're on the road you're bringing than everybody else. There wants for you because you or the danger you're the lookout for because you got the horsepower fucking kill their whole. Family. If you want to say, my choice with psychology of being someone who is short is just it is honestly horrified. It's really scares me. 'cause I don't care. I think it's important for people to be afraid of me if they can be if they can be need to be able to drop that because I have a family to protect always looking at me, Wendy is for food and protection. Okay. So when he just points and wants me to kill somebody. I gotta be able to do it. I understand, thankfully, she can't point. And hopefully, the slime is getting figured out, by the way, slide use them. Yeah. I will see I'm gonna see tomorrow perhaps honestly while around there's a bit of a tour. I can do for you. And this is not even a joke. Like, oh, guys. Because there's also I want to talk about so. Yeah. Everyone tells me the film it I get it is. Can't sometime it would be. Honestly, if it is bonnet we need to talk about drinking in your neighborhood. That must be like are you in like an only Irish neighborhood like what has happened? No. This is not over stereotype the Irish, yes. Please protect them. Yes. But I don't understand the amount of vomit. And I know that I I I thought it was a junkie thing. And then maybe it's a dog based behavior as well. But I'm not sure, but if not if my streets are not covered with miscellaneous lime you most certainly covered with Pablo puddles a fucking vomit. And I don't live on bourbon street like I live in a normal neighbor. Right. No. I completely understand. All right. We'll speak of true horror. We have to do it update on Bruce MC. Arthur. Some new information has come to light regarding his arrest. Now, this is straight out of silence of the lambs. Evidently when he was arrested the cops roll up the banged down the door. There is a man in his bed tied up ready to. To be victim. Number nine. Yeah. I believe number nine. And he was God knows what do you think? Fifteen minutes away an hour away from being dead. But now he was being prepped. It seem preps. Yeah. We don't know. Because what we basically the police arrive the Cording to the statement when they picked him up. He had a victim of handcuffed to his bet. And next thing they found was a group of on his desktop, computer. When they were searching drills information, they found these files on his desk seem to have the first names of all of the men that ended up being his victims. Right. And there was a final file that I believe was just titled John, which is the name of the man handcuffed debt. Do that is. So fricking scary. Can this is like one of the times if you're a police officer this is like I can retire now. Oh, yes. Like the fucking crime story of your life. This it to rescue this guy. You now become a haunted person for sure rightfully so. Because this is you know, how Canadians are when they're haunted. Oh, oh my God. I tell you what I tell you ought to be all I see how your haunted over. But you know, how you gotta be you gotta be more haunted like me, and my buddy, Greg my body. Greg's haunted. He can't even gold by cemetery to visit his grandmother because next thing, you know, he's digging up looking for bolt cer- fucking awful person or is going to be a massive heavy hitter for us. Eventually he will be put what they found in fucking defiles were pictures of easy. The victims assume either unconscious or dead wrapped in they were completely shaved they were put in for coats and hats, and you would put little cigars in their limpets Mary. So he's just he's laughing, you're laughing. He wanted to make them like Milton Berle like what did he what was he doing? He's like monopoly man murderer. Yeah. It really a mole little cartoon a little vaudeville performers. It is such a bizarre thing. I have never I've never heard of that before the oldest coz that we've covered has anyone like Jerry rodeos. What did oh did he dress them? You would do. The pictures of the of severed feet with with the feet, and in the high heels we had fifty K who did all the self portraiture that was self portraits though. But there are other people that have had because it depends on what your trophy was. And obviously, this is what your trophy is. And this is a part of where I people kept saying was a how like in modern day with the internet. We're never going to have like these big time mythology mythological serial killers anymore. But actually, I think that we're seeing that they actually have a lot more tools that they're supposed being able to take these pictures and not having to take them to a place to get developed like they used to be like not having to go into an eckerd's and winked at the guy and give them a five dollar Bill and pretend to we didn't see you it's on net role. And right that was old school. Yeah. Because I had that was time. You just saw grandma's in the bathroom. Tackle. Naked women on bathroom one of the hall. So I saw a woman with her vagina. She her her. It was a nice woman forties. And it was a series of pictures of her spread eagle with the vagina. She'd written in pen around her vagina wish you were here. Well, that's a strange Pink Floyd song. So anyway. Yeah. So we all know MC, Bruce MacArthur. He tormented the LGBT community in Toronto mostly Middle Eastern men. So it's it's great that he's been caught. And it is wonderful that he is going to go away. He's well he's going which is rare in Canadian prison terms. They don't do a lot of life sentences. It's pretty like that is their heaviest. Yeah. Their heaviest sentence. He is obvious madman. There are a lot of this up's going to come out about him. We're going to find out what it is. But it's fucked. How long he got to operate? It really is they didn't get him until December until two thousand seventeen they were able to link his dodge caravan. He had a red dodge caravan and were will to link him to that after his final victim kinsmen was getting into it or his last victim kinsman was getting into it. They had surveillance footage of that dodge caravan. They linked back to MacArthur in December of that year. Please searched MacArthur's home and found devices with more than one hundred. Photos of kinsman dating back to two thousand seven but eighteen of them were taken. Well, he was dead. Well, this is a long this dude was as Henry just mentioned was operating for a long time. And it was an under I investigated crime because of the nature of his victims number one because you have men of Middle Eastern origin that are and various Asian orange origins that were gay and that gay community, and they were they kind of left them to their own because they have these there, obviously, I'm not going to blame the police. I am going to blame the police with the fact that they didn't fully engage, but he's kind of believed that like, yeah. But he's guys are drifters. I mean, like, they're just. They're just like they live their normal lives. And you just kind of you probably would be nice. If maybe looked into it a little bit harder than you did. Oh, totally. And it was devastating for the family of these victims. Obviously, Karen, Kohl's a sister of kinsman said when he was missing I'd lie awake at night wondering where he was in what he might have suffered. And she says now I lie awake. And think about how he was murdered and dismembered by someone. He knew so MacArthur was such a sociopath. He was actually friends with these people, which I suppose explains how it was able to get them in such. You know, comfortable positions. I guess this is another comment because it basically from reading from this article, I'm reading from it's it's very interesting. So he obviously we now know that he dismembered the bodies and he hit much plan planners from where he was working right road. Go when he would disseminate the body parts. Now, the majority of the men's remains were hidden inside large outdoor planners at home where he worked filled the rest were buried in a ravine adjacent to the property owner of the home care and Frazier last week, eight trees, the city of Tronto has planted along the ravine to honor the men, which is very nice to whom she said she met when they accompany MacArthur as he worked on her property. She said the MacArthur who killed the victims is not the man she and her husband knew we call it. Bruce. A and Bruce b Bruce a was a man who seemed to have made decisions about his life. What was your you're happy with it? He enjoyed his job. He enjoyed his clients. He never got bored with the plants he ever got bored with the flavor bodies. That's what it says. Here this listen, okay? Where he was. Very talented at it. He was very fond of his children. He was a great grandfather. He was he was the best friend neighbor relative. That anyone go to that was Bruce a OK whose be who was that. I don't know. That's not it seems like they're really focusing on Bruce. A and the overshadows the be in this case, I think it's more like Bruce a as a raging sociopath who murders a bunch of people and puts them in planters. And the name is verse me. Yes, the same guy. But as forementioned when it comes to the LGBT community. This is a quote here for years members of the LGBT community in Toronto believed they were being targeted by a killer. And they were right. The prosecutor said MacArthur shaved victims after he killed them and kept some hair stored. The also held onto items belonging to the people. So this dude. Yeah, we are going to do a deep dive, I'm bruised MacArthur. Because when do you think this started, I mean, it seems like two thousand was when he started hanging around the gay scene in Toronto. Oh, and I'm assuming it started pretty soon at that point. We're gonna find out and we'll see what hit quote, we know very little about as is growing up yet. That could all those details will come out. And that's when we will be able to do our episode. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, man. That's fucked up. Now, it's it's crazy, man. I will tell you. You know, I found a bag a hair of my own. What do you mean? The last time. I shaved my beard. And it's true. Why did you keep your hair? You know, we're the bodies I wear are you hiding the bodies entry just have ideas. So hoping honestly you shave your beard when you were you were thirty four years old. You really thirty four did always shave it every once in a while. But this was in this last one, okay? This is my shave the beard the last time why on earth which and then you've got a sandwich bag. I put hair in it. Because I thought it was some fun. It was some bit. I was going to do with it. They're willing to do what bit. So I like a serial killer carrot top well bit. Are you going to do with a bag of here? What do you think would like for you to open up a bag? And then just like did you throw it like your LeBron James when he does it with the when with talcum powder, our audience loves would ever whatever is just love it when we give you're gonna throw your beard hair onto our audience. No. But it was through some bit. I forgot what we were doing. I wanna say it was from when. Oh, yes, it was when we were campaigning for the webby award. I had shaved off my beard hair. Because that was a thing I was going to do. I was going to say I was saying it was back here. But I was going to mail out bits of by beard hair. Because I won't make Natalie shave my back because it's all long thing where it's like, I wanna be itchy. It's disgusting. Yeah. Hair? Keep the hair that was going to shape. No, I through the hair out once I found the no I'm say on your back. Yes. You never should've had the heritage ziplock bag to begin with. And also, I don't think it's legal to just male hair. Someone like me. Like, a barber Yuna bomber Mary happening. Would you actually look that up if it actually is legal to mail? I show it is. I don't know if it's not we're not. But I seems like it's like body. It's like, I don't know. It just seems weird to male heir to people if I opened a package, and it was full of human hair. I would be extremely disturbed that wonder where is the toddler for is the baby that this belongs to they wanted it. Because a part of it was it was the drive. I said if you can convince me that you I believe I said five other people have oh, I for the webbie's. I will send you a patch of my back hair. I don't remember that Alpher one person say that they wanted it. Did you get the address from that person? No. I never go. I never knew that work there planting it all around their crimes freeze, and then how is Henry implored, Linda, Oregon and also in Los Angeles. And now we have a whole Noto would. But in real. But in roadies, a one of the skin walkers, a, yeah. Exactly next thing. You know, you're a crypt did. And everyone's hunting you down and trying to kill you. Mary believe it or not there's no rules about human hair. However, human corpses, human organs, or body parts or embryos or doesn't Terry human remains are prohibited. However, you might be interested that anything that's pornographic or obscene is prohibited. So maybe that counts to your show. So I can't send a nude picture of myself to my wife over the over the fucking. Yes. Postal service. But why wouldn't you wanna go Henry what world would Natalie want to go to the mailbox Doria sucks to have to do? And then she opens it up. She's oh, this is from Henry is maybe it's a nice postcard from Australia perhaps. And then it's just your. But is just a picture of you on a bed spread eagle Subba taking a silvery allow with the finger to the corner of the mouth beds new glass day of your marriage. What I would say is that it would be really nice. If like like if you were dying in a hospital, right? You're and hospice now think about this right right before we even get into. We were just talking about Bruce MacArthur. You take a picture of your penis while you're in there because you just wanted to and then one last with you go, and you send out the picture, and it goes in. And if you pass you have a family member send that letter to your wife, and wouldn't it be nice? No one last math. No. I don't think that they would like that. I don't think that they would like that. I don't know if it is worse, although I will say your marriage for Kevin's funeral. It wasn't open casket, and I wanted open casket, but I just want the bottom half. I want the bottom half open. That's what I want no pan. Pants no pan. Just a nice little thong. Anyone can remember me as I am. I just need ten more years. Yes. Absolute. Well, no one's allowed a lot of in our family. No listeners are allowed to die. We got tenure. It's a ten year break. That's it. Well, speaking of well, I guess I kind of alluded to the death of a child, Casey, Anthony and nudity. Casey, Anthony is back in the news. Once again, anytime, she speaks she seems to get covered. And this is kind of interesting. She says she's open to reconciling with her father. But it will read the quote, it doesn't really sound like she is. And then she's also possibly considering taking five hundred K to pose nude. Magazine of all time hustler this Larry Flint's us flirt. But honestly hustler. I mean, Larry Flint was eight warrior for the first amendment. Jerry, fa what he did to Jerry Falwell who was a total scumbag evangelical conman was awesome. I like the people vs. Larry Flint is legitimately good movie gray moving Woody Harrelson. Fucking awesome Courtney. Love's awesome nails him. But I it's I think that obviously, it's her perogatives. I believe if you were going to if there was a career track for Casey Anthony's gotta you're on out. This is kind of how you gotta go. Look what happened with Tonya Harding got into boxing. That's right. She could do something like that. She gets kind of she pivot into that world. She could maybe put on sex tape years kind of money. So basically, whatever your crime is that got you like more famous. Tonya harding. The, you know, the beat down on the need for Nancy Kerrigan, not goodbye enemy, and certainly a horrible assault. So now, you have to be a boxer you kill your kid. Now, you have to actually posing nude is there's the wrong with posing. Or do it it? So it's not even a punishment at all it's up. You just get to make a lot more money doing that. A lot of people do to come to Hollywood for the first time five hundred K. So she kills her kids. This is why it's it's going to be well Henry, you should read some of these quotes we have. Oh, yeah. This is all a part of it. So so what we covered a little bit with that George Anthony got into a very bad car wreck. And he almost died. He almost died, and he was and so obviously, the idea of reconciliation comes to mind. So when in the on the hospital that George Anthony basically says he'd like to see his daughter again, and he forgave her for what she put the family through again. Sure. I mean, I don't know if I would ever be able to do that. Especially not only did you kill my granddaughter. But you also accused me of molesting you your child honestly in this quote. I don't even know if she did forgive him or take it back because now this quote, it's like she is she's such a sociopath. So that she did an interview for Daily Mail TV. And this is Casey Anthony, I'll thank that. I will always love. My down like Humphrey and time he can hail like we can heal from everything better to get together than apart. We'll say time we'll tell and I'll tell you what it will take more than one. Visit it would take more than one on. I love you. All right. He has to admit to things before he can heal until then he is not going to do anything but suffer is so fun. Horrible you DAT. Oh my God. So now, she literally is just like my dad's gonna do nothing but suffer and then when she says he's got to admit things before he can heal. Like all of that stuff was just made up by the defense. She admitted that he was a great father. If you remember the prison when they were they they taped prison conversations. She was she's like I'm going to go away. And she's like you were a great dad all of this stuff all of that is nonsense. So maybe she has just gone on now mentally to believe defense for him. So I think if you listening to dirtyjohn currently because I'm going through because Natalie was just like, oh, you're going to hear that. So I I'm into it. It's really really interesting. But a part of it is that if you are willing to go so deep deep deep on a lie, right? Where everyone oh that she could she has her. She had already. I mean when she walked them through the building that she didn't work at and then finally got to a tangible wall. There was just like, okay. Okay. She is a oh, yeah. You like, you know, now me bits fucking some basic. Vary. A cunning very dangerous person. Really is man to listen to this quote about her said that he says this is Casey Anthony describing her Casey on Casey describing herself it if obvious. I'm a strong minded person. I can move path thing not that they leave my mind. It's just that. I've I've always just been taught how to hide my suffering with a smile, and we are tough at it's hard to change it. I have a lot of things come up and twenty nine thousand nine that will probably make some heads spin only. Good is she fucking. This is Lindsay Lohan Mykonos, it really is man she is fully leaning in to the celebrity is this look I like to think I have what it takes to pose in a girly magazine. I work hard on keeping fit on. They take him up on his offer. So I think that's a yes, again, that's a five hundred thousand dollar offer from hustler and because she was found not guilty. She can take all of that money. She doesn't have to re doesn't have to pay anybody. There's no civil case against her. It's all going to be her cash. So she is going to be living a hell of a lot better than the vast majority of people because she murdered her daughter. Here's it is going to do that. To make it work. What does that say about our culture, though, the fact that she literally is now as time goes on we will as the pain sort of subsides a little bit. And it already has she is just going to become a mainstream person. I firmly believe it it's possible. Look at O J Simpson. He I mean, he's in the mix people taking southeast with them. Like, it's some cool guy walking around like he is just an expert ballplayer. But they we are kind raising. I think there's a lot of things currently that show sort of the true psychotic underbelly of certain businesses, like say, politics and show business. Yeah. You look at this stuff where truly it is whatever puts butts in seats all that matters with both of those industry. Absolutely never never mince words about being so don't they don't want you to think that there's some kind of meritocracy here, you just need to be able to put papers on the fucking screen and keep them there. That's that. Is it doesn't matter. Why they're there. You can you. I was born with three necks you'd like at least. You're a stone to sit your border five feet. Dude. You gotta do buddy to it. Absolutely. We get anybody lower. That's one of my one of my pet peeves while we're watching professional wrestling. And there's a little characters name is horrid swaddled, and he's a little person. And we was watching it with somebody. And they're were like, oh, it's not right. What they're doing to that. Man. I'm like he is just wrestling. Yeah. He's ready. Let him wrestle. I hate the. That's the flip side of that is I cannot believe they're exploiting that it's like no choice. And he's he's on WWE. He's frankly money that's a lot of money. He's he's a dream job. So anyway, that's my only issue with all that. Because now apparently in Florida they're thinking about banning dwarf tossing once again because I thought it was already banned. I'll tell you. I know I didn't know it was such a big thing that it deserved a ban. But evidently, it's quite a common. Bore gag. I guess you cut to me when I'm forty five and we're doing the last podcast cruises. Like, I don't know. What the hell they're doing that point? I mean like you can pay a couple of grand toss me. Oh, it'll tell you. Maybe we'll do people pay you. We split the money for you to toss me if you great, it'd be absolutely. And that's just all it is. That's what the VIP and greet. Slowly turns into this is tossing Henry bag beat like bald. I'd I'd pay you to do it. So Casey, Anthony predicted men and women would buy the issue with her in it. And she says my nudes will fly off the shelf. Even if it's soft porn, and I have to look inside of myself and ask would I buy that? Or what I look at it. And during a large section of my mind that is battling with another large section of my mind. And it's a I mean, it would be interesting. I definitely not going to pay for it. No. I don't think that would be appropriate will my fingers deepen keeping weakness because it's true. Because I don't blame my mind. My spirit is pure what it is. Spirit. He's pure my mind is pure little fuckers your hands who controls who controls your hands. Don't your brain does snow. It's your mind. It's somebody else comes the the the one within what did what did who did Bundy call? What was it that this or the entity to the entity into steps forward and all of a sudden, so it's just like poor entity. And you just look people who've killed their children, not all it's a strange. It's a strange new category on porn hub, just want it to be a up. But I don't want it to be category and borne out. But I'm just saying that sometimes it's a curiosity, and you don't want it still kills the cat. But right before it kills the cat cats. Having a lot of fun. I guess so I guess what it is. Yeah. I think it's honestly, I think that would definitely be a moment where you get notch down level like your morality like it's definitely like, it's a it's a hit to your morality. I think to look at it. But I'm not saying that it's also extremely is just booking best definitely hits your morale. You're definitely taking. It's like DND points. Like, you're going to get you're gonna lose constitute right doing it. I don't know if asked me. You would never do it in this office. And I would never do it my own, but you know, where it's gonna fucking happen in a hotel room. Yeah. Well, was L rooms are a little different. That's win. The reality all changes, you know, that you go into hotel room road. And what that person that man that is alone in that bed in there because I would never I love my wife. I love all kind of just the stupid the the pornography, you sound like Jerry Falwell. All right. So that's a update on Casey Anthony who knows this world is so fricking crazy right now. I would not be surprised do thousand nineteen Casey Anthony becomes mainstream. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at some point. If she has a show, I I truly it's not that they won't try. I don't think the I don't think human beings would allow it to happen. But Rb shirt, Ruth, Bader Ginsburg. She wore she's a she's a who are j everything's flip for me. He's a hero. I know. Oh. To be save on. But you know, what? I mean. I don't think that people will watch it. I think that people will protest and we'll be upset. Yeah. Newbies. Would they will allow her to fully under that? I'm surprised hustler has five hundred keta dole out. I can't believe that they are doing anything as far as sales. Go making pisses, really cheap. You just need a lot of water. It's not our overhead over, I guess. So all right. Well, let's go to Russia here they still pee on their ankles and hustler magazine hustler goes wild. I mean, there have always hustler Cheri is it slow. The pennant penetration to do is at art cores. It's off quite think. It's I don't think hustler shit. I haven't honestly looked at a hustler in forever. Your pretty face is going to hell had an interview in hustler magazine like two cycles ago. So you've been in hustler Anfinn gorriak. Yes. Nice. Not. None of our interviews. You're on the children's section. That's for sure. The story is my truth. The story is my only happiness I believe the story. I praised the story st-. Our bodies are already dead. The story must be told. Hi. And welcome to the story must be told. I'm brother read, I'm pastor Andrew. And I'm sister Callisto reshare stories every stories of our congregation of life of punishment of insanity. We are now your family and your family is now nothing. Our bodies are already dead. I I have to say again story take all breaks off. And then raises us look puppies eager for the stories milky tree. Mike. Raise us to be old eager for the milk. The story must be told. The story must be it's. The story must be told every Tuesday on the last podcast network. All right. Well, let's move on here. Speaking of kids, I guess this dude. Let's do this Russian story. This you see you cover this story. Now. This was a guy I believe this came on a bunch of years ago. They he was like this. He's a weirdo. So this is a Russian psychopath who dug up girls bodies and turn them into dulls could walk free a deranged, dude, he dug up the bodies of twenty six so this is like egging on steroids. Twenty-six any kind of looks like Ed gain a little bit a little bit. He did dug up twenty six girls and turn them into quote, human Dole's. He could walk free from psychiatric unit to spite the fury of his victims. This dude is a Natalie Maas, given he's a fifty two year old guy. They say fifty two year old historian. But I don't think that that's accurate. I mean historian. View that all of the graveyards are like, libraries, I guess. So from the Russian city of MS Nina, knob, Garad he was arrested and sentenced to compulsory psychiatric treatment. After two dozen mummified bodies were discovered at his apartment in two thousand eleven so the guy actually didn't even two thousand eleven but heels Madden that long of a time. She didn't ceres people, right? No. He didn't kill them psychiatrists claimed that they had cured the man and recommended that he continue receiving treatment as an outpatient. However, they recently reversed their decision and demanded that his that his treatment be extended indefinitely, but the body snatcher could now walk free on a technicality as as the order keeping him in the secure hospital expired in December. So I don't this is like such a strange story to me because the guy obviously has deep psychological issues. What would he would he ever cross over and actually start taking lives to my main meals? I did. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's true. Did do it wasn't very often. But he definitely did do it. I like this concept right here. What it said? According to a BBB age, a Natalie Moskovitz in when his parents to come over who shared the apartment with him. Oh my God. How do you know, you got you gotta know your kids into this? He said they had mistaken the mummies for large dolls. Well. Yeah. I mean, the kids go ahead. The six were three to twelve years old. So I don't know if that's a pretty big frigging large doll a twelve year old. No, most explained is interesting the dead attributed to a childhood incident during which he witnessed a funeral procession for an eleven year old girl mosque than alleged at the participants forced him to kiss the dead girl's face writing that an adult push my face down onto the waxy forehead of the girl in an embroidered cap. And there was nothing. I could do but kiss her as ordered. Oh my goodness. I don't know what Russian funeral is like, but that doesn't I hope that's not normal zone. He would dry the bodies out as you do for can beef jerky. He would wrap their limbs in strips of cloth or with stuff them with Padden, sometimes adding wax masks decorated with nail polish over their faces. He within dress them in brightly colored children's clothes and wigs. Some also had music boxes inside of their ribcages. Yeah. That is going to tell you do. That's that. I never heard of that before. I guess I don't know. I've never done before. And that of crafty guide. Oh, really do the last thing I'd ever did. I don't really do the plaster pal Paris or none of that sort of paper machine kinda worked there. So I guess you do that. Yeah. This guy. I don't think he's a heavy hitter. Because to this point he hasn't actually murdered anyone. But he is. So he we used to host tea parties four the Dole's in these sing children's songs together. And they weren't singing this. No, I think they were pretty quiet and he turned on cartoons. When he worked at a computer. So take what the just have a family. Maybe he just wanted a fan on that's such a fucking Astle. Look, how cute cute the Dole's are though that is going to vomit that is the dog that so precious who's this and Bradley only, that's my mom. Does my mom does a lot of doll work. Like a look at her own look at her cute little lip. Raise horrified. Wow. That is just great. It looks like a music professor. He was a he was a historian. Indeed, it was that make them like this is how I imagine the real professor poem lived. Yeah. It was like this look at all of these. You don't want to tell you what? Because I remember the story came up quite a bit ago because his twenty seven I remember people talking about this back in the day, especially early on the internet to talking about this story, and it was always deep kind of on four Chan of these stories here. Yeah. These dolls, and I really haven't looked at him since. And now that I'm looking again, you're going to try to buy one purchase. If I go to your house, and you have the hustler with Casey Anthony, and one of these dolls I'm gonna really we're gonna have to. I'm gonna have to find you going to have to find Christ. I imagine I'm going to bless you. I am going to force. You will have goals you church with, you know, telling people, I'm a historian historian all of this archive. Barely yet. His mom is Henry said he said, his mom said we saw the dolls, but we did not suspect there were dead bodies inside. They are dead bodies. Number one. He says we thought it was his hobby. And I guess they were right about that. It was sort of his hobby into your fucking, son. Oh, live in crow your parents living with the child that has human sized dolls position all over the house. He makes sing every single day. Maybe check in and check. Hey, this is a reach out. Hey, here's a here's just kind of trying to have a nice normal the evening for once. But we're going to all I mean, just ask if their corpses. Say elephant in the room, just dead body said buddies and then just like see if he's like, let's get rid of those. If he has a Tate's is, you know, what you can do those look, by the way, the also look like dead bodies because no stores selling those they're horrifying. Absolutely not. I it's just you don't have to put a bunch of judgement on my, you know mean. You mean, you don't have to go and tell them he's gross or any sick. Or you can as a family Murphy. Like, hey, listen, you seem to be really tired from job of being a story. You seem to be really stressed out. Whatever it is. I I know that you have these hobbies. Yeah. Yeah. Right rave robbing and then dressing up the Cordell ever, say the words out loud ever again. We'll we're going to do this. We're going to take these dolls because Rolling Stones. Okay. Great. We're going to get rid of them. And then we're going to do is we're going to get used some new hobbies. And maybe just maybe put you on an extended vacation a place where they pump youth all full forcing just a couple of years because honestly nice. Would it be to be an insane asylum for like a little bit? It's great that I can go to the graveyard and rub some graves. I love I love it. Mentally, maybe handle it and be like, let's just go, Saul and honestly, by Russian standards. They didn't throw the book at him. He wasn't in rate in a America. He would be in federal prison for sure because those people would have kind of probably need to be in a concrete square, but he was really his job at being historian. Yeah. Russian historian, and you know, they don't they don't mess around with their history whatsoever. But the truth, but he said this mosque in cave. Detectives conflicting explanations for his actions. He said initially said that he was lonely and wanted to communicate with the girls but later claimed he had tried to find ways to resurrect them. He also said he wanted to become a mum vacation expert. We need to watch Marcus Marcus, a lot of time working alone in that little room. Well, he's in love. He's got engaged. He doesn't live with his parents. We just need to speak with caroliina make sure every once in awhile like it's not an invasion of trust. Just look at his e mails. Yes. You're just kind of follow him once. Well, you say like when he goes if he ever leaves in the middle of the night for some reason after hours and hours of work and just finished jokingly say stuff like going to kill someone. And then just see how he react. 'cause if he goes like currently to stop messing with my business. I know that he's I was joking. You can actually find a lot about people just with a little joke. React. Yes. Because people was really evident to what they really feel. Yeah. Absolutely. So that is a little tale from the wonderful land of mother Russia, and I don't know maybe the guy 'cause it doesn't seem like he has plans to stop. As a matter of fact, he's just going to continue. A. No. So we have some when I love I love our listeners got it much. And we check the side stories Email every day, we love getting love getting emails from you guys. And this is a fun little story, again, if you ever wanted to send us a story big I to cover or is there. Anything you're interested in it's always side stories L P, OT, L G, mail dot com. So this dude, I'll just his name is Tim he lives by Dwayne Johnson for those the Dover. Call Dwayne Johnson was the due to through the meth party for his dying wife in a strange way. It was kinda sweet kind of weirdly romantic. I actually had someone said Twitter message being like, you could tell my emotional state. But the fact that I just teared up at the romance of the meth. Really would like he went all out, and he really risked his freedom to show his wife one last good time. So this is the Email coming in from Tim. He says I live two blocks down from Duane in the tiny house of Searle's. I met him in early two thousand eighteen I was walking around town. And when I walked by his place, he was jamming to the ride the lightning album of Metallica. This dude is like nonstop rock. He says my favorite band and album, then stroke up a conversation with him. He struck up a conversation with them. It led him to telling me story about how he got -ducted by aliens fucking. That's what his paranoia began. We're so he says I say, it's the meth, and I think Tim you might be onto something I could be the methods. Well, introduced him to your podcast. I listen to I I it's just amazing that this dude, maybe listened to av service. We have a couple of celebrities that listened to us. But for some reason, I was like like Henry wrote back and in Texas. I think we made it. Yeah. I can't imagine a wreath. Like, we we got. Searle's? Honestly makes me it because it's something it was like the guy that got a shot by his dad that didn't did the interview on national television with the last pot gusty sherline nothing. This is our legacy. So what have you listened to? Well, he says I listened to the Betty embargo hill episodes with this man looking wave loved and continue to listen to last podcast. I wanted to so fricking funny. I want to thank you guys for the show. I got into a bad car accident. Oh, well, anyway, but he he broke his ankle and his foot while I'm happy that you're feeling better. Now spent four months in a wheelchair. Thank you so much for listening to him that story. So Dwayne Johnson. Listens to the show. We've officially made it we didn't if we can keep the meth, and we rock that's not that Renault. We don't even I don't the rock is just going to criticize busy busy in. Honestly, he's just gonna Marcus. And I don't need all of that. And I'm a stone cold mankind guy anyway. And quite frankly. Like him. I I don't hate there. I'm talking about wrestling not doing Johnson as a person because I interviewed Mick Foley. And he said the only match that he doesn't ever talk about nor does he like, and he says, no one should watch. It is the I quit match with the rock when he's his arms are handcuffed behind his back. His hands are handcuffed behind his back, and he took like thirty straight chair shots to the head shit and his family was crying in the front row. Anyway, that's, but that's not the Rockville that was they they agreed. That was the agreed to pay agreed on that the the mankind was so crazy. So anyway, thank you for the Email fascinated and just so fricking funny to know that this to listen to our Betty and Barney hill episodes, and I hope you like them if we can keep someone with a brain full of meth entertained. Hey, I actually think that's hard to do. I think so because I mean, honestly talk about short attention span being able to lock into those are two hour and a half episodes. There were thick with details about aliens and touch os. We're doing our job at the speed. We need to do her job. And we have to keep it going fat matter of fact, we're all running on Dunkin right all the time. So. Already a light level of speed. Absolutely. All right. So fine. Just the final story. This is I'm going to say, it's it's rare that we see a person who was on trial accused of a crime make it to hear hero of the week, which we don't do every week. But we'll just do it this week when we basically just do whatever we lost. So whenever we would like to do it. So maybe you guys know this, dude. It's sportscaster Warner wolf he was arrested for allegedly removing assign with racist connotations. So he's longtime. Sportscaster Warner wolf has been arrested for allegedly taking down a sign that spelled out the words plantation at his gated community in Florida multiple outlets reported that this dude is eighty one years old found the name of his private community. It's called the classic plantation estate in Naples offensive and one of the words removed. So he went to like their little whatever council. He's like, let's get these words out of there. And of course, they're old Christians, and you try to get someone retiree in Florida to do something fucking truly him. Engage. He's eighty one years old. He's. We had a couple over imagine. And finally, he's just like take down that fuck and signed down, brother. I'm taking down that sign right now. What are they going do Ning arisen eighty one year old, man? I wonder what the struggle physically was for him to take off the sign. I mean, honestly, Jim in the middle of the Admiral removing the removing the sign they said, so please recall to the gated community December fifteenth after residents complained about the vandalized sign when they arrived at thirties. Found a damage sign. They found a damaged sign was in a water fountain. So I love it. The individual letters spelling out plantation appear to have been intentionally broken off of both sides of the sign wolf who is famous for the catchphrase. Let's go to the videotape also allegedly captured on surveillance footage sign off the communities front gate. I love this guy. And I love honestly this. This is me eighty one years old we used to we used to do bad things when we were kids taking signs and stuff. This is a good use. Absolutely. Your ability to just say fuck the law, and I was just like eighteen or the rules. You just at eighty. You're eighty one years old, right? You're out there. You know what you can do? You can still make the choice to say to yourself. Let's go fuck shit up tonight. Let's get a little let's let's have some fun. Let's turn up the volume tonight. So you figure he probably had. I don't know what you drink at eighty one. Probably like, maybe some Scott hope sales. I imagine. It's a sports sportscaster, Bob. Glenn live at twelve years is probably his cash Scotty. Yeah. He said twelve. Yeah. Thank clink clink standing out there looking out there looking at the plantation. About the plantation house. Don't even know if he was close to it. I think you lived on the estate. Oh, yes. So his thought about or maybe he's tooling around in a golf cart could be because that's what I would be anyone in his wife if he's married he she is heard about this plan for twenty years. To dig it down. I'm digging that sign she's like you see it every day. Seems like Michelle Carter woman. We're gonna talk and did the texts about the suicide. She did that to him. But she but in a positive way, right? Absolutely. So Warner Wolfe hero of the week. Good job, buddy. And there's no reason I understand I would not feel comfortable living in a plantation. I get where he's coming from. If there is the bad symbol. It's a beautiful looking house. They bad symbol of the past. And all of that needs to sort of be thrown onto it needs to be thrown into a phone be radically, and you just build a new nice house. Part bet part of town. You could save a chunk of that wall. If you want or is your grand pappy as old farm, I keep the house just call it. A villa Avila. Villa random ranch hone in style homes, really good alternative plantation. So we have got to wrap it up here. But next week we're going to do more of a deeper dive on Michelle Carter. I mean because you wanted us Scott. She just got convicted of fifteen months for. Convincing her boyfriend in highschool essentially to commit suicide. Yes. In news. This story is fucked. She's a very intense looking young woman she is in. So we'll talk about this just the concept. You've got fifteen months. They appealed a she was convicted last year they appealed and the appeal has been not that didn't they did not win. But her. One of those things where it's like people want shot in your arm of like just like wanna be upset or being raged Rory to these tax 'cause it's fucking brutal. And yeah, so we'll talk about that next week. Just like should she be sentenced is so over the top. This isn't just like you're an asshole, and they're like you caused that person to commit suicide. This is straight up the get back in the car. Go do it. Why you why haven't you done it yet? Right. You keep saying again gambling. Why why are you still alive? Oh, my great up because it's like keep thinking that you're going to do these things. But then you don't do them. Right. Like like, they are like it's about finally booking that vacation that they've been talking going, right? That kind of weird boyfriend girlfriend fight, but it's fucking not. Absolutely. So Email us at side stories L P O T L gmaiLcom with your thoughts on that. Because I am actually really that's that's a fun discussion. I think I think so because it's just slippery slope to because I don't want to be blamed for someone's death. Because don't tell them we commit suicide. Well, that's a good point. Hey, I love you. Don't. Hey, don't. Hey, don't. Hey, stop. That's another good thing. Do that. That's true too. Hey, hey, why don't we just do it in the? But oh my goodness. Well, I think that can get you a whole nother kind of Trump. Why not I don't because maybe that's not what they wanted to hear at that time. And then they do commit suicide next thing. You know, you're guilty of them committed suicide because you requested that they have intercourse with your Buttle. Well, I mean, it's just it's just a slippery slope. You're like you're saying it is a very difficult. It is. So let's not hash out the gover- station now because we have to talk about something next week. All right, everyone. Thank you, all so much relisted. First of all only make sure you're out there you live by the words, Mary unready things are under control going fast enough relays. You've got to get out there the volume this week. Yep. Yep. Make sure your neighbors know your home. That's a good idea this week. I don't know what that means. But smoking banks, Pat pots and pans around. And may come around they say, hey, please be quiet. You're like bil- bang mop of billions at demons are going to come and kill your family o- on them. You put right on them. Yeah. They didn't happy to hear it. Yeah. Absolutely. That makes all the sense in the world. That's right. That's not going to get you in trouble. All right. If it went live your life like you got one of them. I remember that. Because you do you only got one on one? You only want you to love your significant other of your alone. I'm sorry. That's fine. You'll find someone or just enjoy being alone. But you love that significant other like you could end up like the other dregs of the earth with no one. Well, also people like to be alone. Sure. It's good to be alone for I know, I agree with that. Sure. Yeah. But it's better to not be. It's it's hard to say it's hard to sick. It's hard to say and laugh laugh laugh laugh if you're ever feeling sad. It's a good thing to do. Just go. Yeah. But you can't do it in a funeral. He came back. And then it kind of sounds like a crime. That's good. Don't do it or funeral or don't do it in a court date because the judge will take offense to it in judges a very egomania, and they fucking don't let anything sly earns. Judges are intense. They got there on a power trip. Yeah. They are. All right, everyone. Thank you. For listening ale yourself, Satan Magoo's relations. He'll me. Thank you. Mary. Thank you. Mary. Oh, well, I'm sorry. Okay. I'm just trying to stifle a horrible Burke. His show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors, you can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listen to go to last podcast network dot com.
A new look inside the Bruce McArthur investigation
"It likely won't shock you when I tell you the police don't like to talk about their investigations. In fact, you can ask any reporter and I used to be one for the phrase, they hear most from the cops and the answer will always be. We can't comment on an ongoing investigation, but investigations and, and trials happen and verdict surrendered, and then documents are made public lots of documents. And so if you have the right documents and you ask the right questions of the right cops, you can get inside the most complicated of cases like the task force that caught Bruce MacArthur, who pleaded guilty in February two, killing eight men, over seven years. One of Canada's most horrific cases of serial murder Toronto police faced a lot of criticism over how they handled that case, both for how long it took them to investigate the men going missing and the gay village and for famously insisting just a month before MacArthur was caught that the fact that there is a serial killer that was out there. The evidence does not point to that the evidence does not suggest that. You can judge for yourself, whether the cops were doing their best on a complicated case or gas lighting a community that had little reason to trust them our job, here is not to prove or deny that criticism, but to give you an inside look at what police new and when and how those critical pieces were put together. I'm Jordan eighth Rawlings. And this is the big story, Wendy Gillis is the crime reporter at the Toronto Star. She got those documents and asked those coughs the right questions and put together a comprehensive look at what went on while police were chasing a serial killer. Can you start by explaining what we're learning now about MacArthur investigation that we kind of didn't know when we covered the crimes, or when we covered the guilty plea? Absolutely. What we're learning through some of these documents that came out a couple of weeks ago, are some of the finer, details of this investigation for me the story all started, obviously with MacArthur's arrest, but the sort of an endeavor to try and get some of the details of investigation started with an application that myself. And my colleague Kenyan Wallace put in, in March of twenty eighteen a couple of months after MacArthur's arrest to try and get court documents that would show us some of the steps that police took along the way to arrest MacArthur, but also years earlier, what they'd done to investigate the disappearances of missing men from Toronto ski village. Those documents are called IT Ohs. Okay. It's towns, four information to obtain, essentially, it's the case that they put to the court for why they should be allowed to. Do certain kind of invasive investigative steps such as such as tracking someone. So putting a tracker on their vehicle to get live updates on, on where they're going getting access to their cell phone that could be data could be sort of trying to understand who they're communicating with and one of the most invasive ones that they did end up doing in this case was to get permission to go covertly, search Bruce MacArthur's apartment, and that was obtained through a general warrant. We've talked about MacArthur a couple of times on this podcast, and it's always in the context of rightly, so the, the victims and the community or how long it took to get to his arrest, and that's been a sticking point with a lot of people who have covered this case or even just watched it unfold. Yeah. And, and seeing the work that was done is really instructive to that end. We got upwards of I think it was three dozen IT ITO's from project Houston, which as you know, was the investigation. Into the first three missing men from Toronto's. Gay village scandal, never at them. I'm still buys your Z and Machida K Hon and they went missing in between two thousand ten and two thousand twelve and there was a roughly an eighteen months task force that was formed to investigate their disappearance. And I think one of the most interesting aspects of the most recent release of these documents from the courts was getting a detailed view of what they did during that investigation. We knew that they had identified someone who they thought might be responsible for the death of Scandinavia Ratnam. And that was a, a man out in Peterborough who police believed was involved in cannibalism ring, and it's, it's really interesting to see the resources that went into investigating that individual and not, you know, that does show that these disappearances were taken seriously at the time and they were investigated. Unfortunately, they identified the wrong person. What I think is very important to note from some of the project Houston were is that an and to be fair. Police have also been pretty up front about this as well. Is that the identification of three Brown middle aged men, having gone missing from the village that that wasn't something that was generated by Toronto police itself that came out of a tip that, that came from across the world, a man who thought that he had identified accountable in Toronto, and that was how they began to stop and say, oh, I guess, we have a few men who volunteer this category of Brown men from the village have gone missing. And I think that, that is a really important issue. And hopefully it's actually already been solved because in the last year Toronto police have have created a special missing persons unit that would hopefully now be able to identify the kinds of patterns that come up when you have the same sorts of people going going missing. So you looked at a ton of court. Dr. Kamenz and ITO's and interviewed some of the detectives who worked on the case as you kind of sat down to put all that together and find out how to craft a narrative. What are the first things that stood out in your mind? I, I have to say, I'm really lucky that I was given the time in the space to do that kind of reporting and writing, and I'm really thankful for that. And it was not a solo effort had help from my colleague, and I had incredible editing. From my editor at top, what stood out for me always sort of? And what's interesting is that we got a look at these documents way back in the fall. But because there was an ongoing trial MacArthur had not yet pled guilty. There are his fair trial rights, so all of these documents are sort of redacted, and then after he pled guilty. We got one IT, oh, that was sort of Representative that was far less redacted. So we got more information there. So I guess my point is it was sort of a gradual release of information and through at that process. It always was astonishing to me, the ways in which this investigation could have gone off the rails. Like there were all kinds of times when. There was excellent police work, or there were major hurdles that came up and everything could have gone wrong. So a couple of examples is Bruce MacArthur's van went missing and it was missing for about two weeks. And that was because MacArthur, had purchased a new van, and he had driven it out to a relative's home and police had had followed it there, and they knew that it was potentially very crucial to the investigation. And in fact, it was incredibly important to their investigation. What ended up happening was they saw parked up the relatives home than stopped being there. They would go back and check on it, and it was gone, and that's a scary thing, and it was gone for about two weeks. And finally, they decided okay, we have to go find this thing, and they started checking sort of auto wreckers, and he, he just happened to, to drop it off at a place where they salvage parts. And so the van was pretty much intact, they would end up finding evidence in that van that was absolutely critical. Thaad investigation and that was. Was a very small blood splatter from Andrew kinsman. And what that did was enable the investigators to take Bruce, MacArthur from a person of interest in Andrew kinsman Steph to a suspect in his murder will. Let's tell the, the story of that investigation then from the point of view of the investigators maybe start with when Bruce MacArthur became a person of interest when I show up on their radar and what happened internally. And what's interesting too, is that Bruce MacArthur was investigated during project Houston as well. Right. So that's that's important to know. And I think we've kind of people know that because again, that was one of the things that always comes up as a failing of the police work because that is what it looks like you know, they had him, he was right there and nothing happened until he resurfaced as part of project prison. How did that come about? So project. Prism was formed in August of twenty seventeen and it came about after Andrew kinsman 's disappear. Durance in June of two thousand seventeen that disappearance came only a few months after a man named Salim 'Send went missing. He was also a well known person within the village. So there was a lot of public outcry and concern expressed and Toronto police truck a task force because I think it's important understand that when someone goes missing it is investigated, but I, I mean, I'm not a police officer, but my understanding is that it can be difficult to focus on a single case. When you're at the detachment, they're really, really busy, especially fifty-one division, where this was happening. And so they struck a task force that would clear up several officers give them just sort of one thing to do. And that was investigate Andrew kinsman disappearance and essence disappearance at that time, they had no evidence, as far as I know that they were connected at all. But it made sense for this team to tackle it together a few days into project p project. Prism investigators were reviewing some of the surveillance footage that had been captured soon after Andrew kinsman Steph. And they were able to determine around the time that Andrew had gone missing. I know that they have been talking to neighbors and trying to figure out who had the last contact and as I understand it, they, they knew that he had gone missing sometime in the afternoon. The were reviewing the footage and realize that sort of in the top top right corner. I mean, I don't know which one they looked at first. But ultimately, they were able to determine that there was a red van that came to a stop near under Commons apartment, sort of very close across the street. And there was a figure who appeared to be under Ken's men, who got into that van. And they did not know what that van was they could not see the face of the individual who's driving, and they could not see the license plate. And so to me, that's what is really quite impressive. Is that they were able to take that red van. And determined that it was a dodge. They took it to dodge dealership. And I, I spoke to Mario Wong who was the salesman who spoke the police he was. So he was just very forthright with me. He was like, yeah. Of course, I told them I was I he felt it was really important to do. His part to help this investigation, even though the officers who came to speak to him didn't tell them, what they were doing, but he knew he knew based on some of the sort of the appearance package. They call it that this was a two thousand four twentieth anniversary dodge caravan, what the investigators do is they request all of the ownership information for for those fans for that make of making model. So they, they get the spreadsheet and detective David Dickinson, who was the sort of primary investigator on project presume, he told me that he was at his home. He opened up the spreadsheet at, like, ten pm at his dining room table and search for Bruce. Because Bruce had been written on Andrew kinsman calendar on June twenty six which was the day that he went missing and they had no idea what the importance of Bruce was. But they were able to determine it to be something that they had to sort of test or discount. And that's how an investigation like this has been explained to me is that they sort of test everything until it is proven to be irrelevant. And so he searches Bruce in that spreadsheet and five owners have that name only one of them owned that specific make of the van and also only one of them had any recent contact with police. And so that was Bruce MacArthur, and that recent contact was in two thousand sixteen when a man alleged that MacArthur had a strangled him inside MacArthur's own van, and that he'd gotten away. I mean you can imagine that, that discovery this is a man who is likely gay, who has been accused of salting someone. In his van. And that's the same van that scene, picking up. Anderson's men at the same time that he appears to, to disappear. So I know that that was that was quite a important moment in that investigation. And, and it really just builds from there. What does that put in motion from the perspective of the investigators when they have that, that puts in motion, someone who is a person of interest, he was made a person of interest within a few days of that investigation? It's really remarkable to see how quickly things progressed from there. I mean the day after that discovery is made from the spreadsheet. There's an investigator who's at, at the thorn cliff park apartment where MacArthur lived so they're, they're, and they're learning everything they can about where he's coming and going, there's like a key fob. So that can kind of record your comings and goings. And also it recorded when it was being used to open the park aide. Right. So because they could tell when he was driving. They do get ultimately gets. Permission from the courts to put a tracker on his vehicles. So they've discovered that he's since purchase a new van, and that he has taken his old van to his relatives. And, and that's how it's discover that the man is missing in bats when he goes when they find the van, and they find blood in it, then he becomes suspect. Yeah, yeah. So that, that happens fairly quickly, that's over the course of a couple of months, the discovery of Anderton's blood came in early November. And what's interesting to think about is that, you know, a natural question might be. We'll why didn't they just arrest Bruce MacArthur? Then when when the us by next question, so I guess the amount that, that they found in the van wasn't a lot. I think the the largest was about the size of a penny. And so it's not enough to have a really strong case against Bruce MacArthur. So what they did was they really amped up the surveillance of him not. Only to try to understand his patterns and find out where he's going. That's what the initial surveillance had been about. But now, they're really concerned about pub public safety. So they're, they're trying to mitigate risk that is posed by someone who could very well be a murderer. So all the surveillance is currently on MacArthur. And now that he's a suspect police have additional powers. When does that turn into the holy shit? We got him moment. So they've got they went into his apartment. And as I was talking about, they did a covert certain early December twenty seventeen November as I understand it was really, really warm. And so that would have skewed some of his landscaping patterns because he, he, you know, they'd been watching him kind of moving going from house to house and job to job. And, and in early December all of a sudden, it got cold and that completely changed his patterns, and so that's exactly when they get permission to go into his apartment. And so they go in and they're in the process of, of. Searching inside his apartment, also downloading some of his digital sort of files like his, his computer than they realize that he's actually on his way back and normally he'll be out of the house for a while. But his patterns have shifted, and he's on his way back. They have to leave the apartment earlier than they thought so they'd only downloaded about forty five percent of his, I believe it was his external hard drive, and his computer. There were a few sort of digital things that they downloaded. And so they were only working with less than half of what they might have, if MacArthur hadn't been coming back to his apartment, and that started a more than month-long process of sifting through all of that. Now, I don't know exactly what that entails, there's all kinds of software. And, and that's police are pretty secretive about that for obvious reasons. But they're looking at, you know, whether he's pulled up maps, you know, the content of, of his searches like that kind of thing, they've also done. It's quite an extensive image. Search to but on on January seventeenth hit was one of the project prism team members. His name is Joel manhertz who had thirty minutes to spare before he had to go testify in court. And that was really interesting to me. He just used a little bit of extra time he had and in that time found absolutely crucial evidence. So he, he searched he used sort of photo specific software to run a search. And what came up was what, what we now know our post mortem images of, of men. I can't imagine what it'd be like to find those, but from an investigative standpoint it's, it's really important. So you don't want to say that this was a good thing. This is obviously an awful thing, but it was critical evidence that they needed, and as that day went on. More more images arose, and this is not just evidence that first MacArthur has killed one person. This is evidence that, you know, very strong evidence that he has killed multiple people as we now know there were men who weren't even on police radar at that point. They didn't know that they'd been missing so that those two days, you know, when they found they found those pictures, they decide that they're going to arrest Bruce MacArthur. They know at that point that they would charge him in the deaths of Andrew kinsman and Salim Essen, and this is all coming a week or two after there was that infamous press conference where they said, we have about a month after this evidence that there's a serial killer operating. Yes, yes. And before we get to the conclusion of this, and I'm not gonna ask you to weigh in one way or another. But explain from the investigators point of view how they make a statement like that at a press conference because it did come back to bite them. Right from chief. Mark Saunders is point of view, what he said was accurate and how I understand the investigation. It was accurate. They had Andrew kinsman and Bruce MacArthur linked roost, MacArthur was a suspect in one person's homicide. The criticism has centered on the had identified Bruce MacArthur, as someone who might be involved in some way in the deaths of the other men, and we know that because there was conjecture that was contained in some of those warrants, those ITO's that are filed. So when they're when the police are going to the courts to ask for these powers, they're saying, you know, we think that Bruce, MacArthur might be involved in Andrew kinsman disappearance. That's how it was initially. And then he becomes a suspect in the murder, and also there are these men who disappeared from the village and their disappearances have never been solved. In this causes us. Concern. So it's being the c conduct strongly. They're being put together. Right. I think what has upset many people in the community from what I'm hearing from my sources, is that there was some kind of element of gas lighting that was going on, because there had been you know, this year's long concern that men had been going missing and people were saying the word serial killer that to have the chief of police say that there wasn't there wasn't the evidence to back that up and then only a few weeks later. Sure enough. That's what they had on their hands. That has been destabilizing I think to, to too many people, you can see though. How how quickly it evolved from having Bruce, MacArthur be a suspect in intricate. Kinsman skilling to suddenly being a serial killer. We know that, that actually happened in the course of a day. Tell me about the rest of that day. Then once they find the photos. What happens? So the decision is made to arrest MacArthur, but to preserve the integrity of a major case like this, they have to do everything possible to make sure that Abbott's is not lost. It's important to remember that at this time they didn't know if Bruce MacArthur was acting alone. So there were people that they thought might be helping him. They had no evidence I should stress it no evidence of that. But they, they didn't have evidence to the contrary, either. So they had to make sure that police were in place, and that, that warrants were in the in the process, you know before the courts to be able to search certain addresses that included the Mallory crescent address where we know sadly know that Bruce, had had kept some of his victim's bodies, all of us victim's bodies. So they knew that they needed some time to get that in place, two or three days. So that. Vision is made we're going to arrest him. I believe it was on a Saturday. And I think it was a Wednesday and, you know, give or take a few days in there, and so they decided we're going to watch him, you know, round the clock and get everything in place. But there's a caveat and caveat is from the images, they've found they know that, that it's very likely that Bruce, MacArthur killed one person or more in his bedroom or in his apartment and prior to that the theory had been that Andrew kinsman had been killed in his van. And so police have ways to intervene and, and have far more control when the scene of a crime per se is of the Ecole they don't have that control when it's an apartment when someone's own residence. So the rule the caveat was under no circumstances can Bruce MacArthur, be alone in his home with another man. And sure enough. What does he do lesson? Twenty four hours later. He takes a man back to his apartment alone. And then what happens well, everything the way that I understand. It was it was sort of controlled chaos. The decision is made to arrest. Macarthur immediately. There are already some officers at MacArthur apartment building. Dave Dickenson the primary investigator goes to the scene very quickly and they go up his apartment, and they arrest him and what's really quite tragic, and remarkable is that the individual who he had in his apartment. The core core documents had identified him by a student, John and John had been handcuffed and was naked and black bay had been put over his head. And that's when police went into the apartment they found him handcuffed and Justice McMahon, who was the judge on this case said in, in basically no uncertain terms that he was sure that John was going to be the next victim. So. So it was it was really good that they intervened. What did some of the police officers that you talked to in the course of this investigation? Tell you it was like to work on something like that. That was stale for so long. And then finished so quickly and furiously what I know is that they are really pleased at that they could bring some finality to the families who had been wondering for so long, you know, in that point can't be overstated. These people didn't know what happened to their loved ones. That's different from having your relative be the victim of violent crime. And so to have number one, the uncertainty of what happened. And then, number two finally finding out what happened in having it be so horrific. Those are two different kinds of grief as I understand it. And so, at least to bring an end to the suffering of not knowing I think that has been really big for, for the police that I have heard from. I think it's important to know that there is an ongoing review right now done by former Ontario court of appeal Justice Gloria up Stein. How do the police feel about that? They talk to you about that at all. This was this was officially endorsed by the Toronto. Police chief Saunders has supported this and it's trying to police services board who unanimously passed, basically the for this altogether to be perfectly honest with you. I think that they actually support it because it's going to come out with some recommendations about how did you things better? And everyone can can get behind that. I think. Thanks, wendy. Wendy Gillis is crime reporter at the Toronto Star. And that was the big story, you know where we are by now? It's the big story podcast dot CA, or at the big story. F P N on Twitter or at frequency pods on Twitter on Facebook on Instagram and frequency podcast network dot com is your place for all our shows. We'd love to hear what you think got a rating get a review or just have you. Subscribe, we're on every podcast platform. You can imagine from apple to Google to Stitcher to Spotify to eye-catcher. I don't know if they made that upon on purpose or not. But it's a good one Clare bizarre does the lead, producer of the big story Ryan Clark, and Stephanie Phillips, our, our associate producers and a Lisa. Nielsen is our digital editor Lucas Ianna is our research, assistant and I'm Jordan heath Rollins. Thanks for listening. Enjoy the long weekend. We'll talk Tuesday.
The Not About SNC-Lavalin Edition
"And welcome to Stereo decisiveness assist the podcast about the law in Canada and beyond. I'm Robert Danny I am in Vancouver and I am joined today as always as Bhai my colleague in Vancouver Oliver Police Blanco pulley blank La Oliver. How are you doing today doing great rob and congratulations on the new position? Thank you thank you it has actually begun since our last episode and I am enjoying definitely the joys of Public Service it took me three days upon starting to work to get the the lights turned on in my office. A variety of of requests were remitted to various departments and send eventually someone came and did in fact turn on all of those lights so this fancy the private firm lawyer coming in demanding lights. I know I'm very high maintenance and the laughter that you hear on the line is also our colleague from the East Coast Hillary young professor with the University of New Brunswick Faculty of Law in Fredericton Hillary. How're you doing today? I'm doing great just great. Thanks and glad to be back recording after a bit of a break yeah. It's nice it's good to be with both of you and we've got a jam packed episode today with a a number of really interesting topics the one topic that is has been blanketing the Canadian airwaves that we will not be discussing is the NC SNC Z. Lavon affair which is a constantly changing by the day with with new developments and it appears that it because of its ubiquitous coverage. We've decided we're going to we're going to dig into some of the more weeds easier topics that perhaps you won't necessarily find that to the same extent on the evening news so the three the three topics. We're going to talk about today. I we're GONNA talk about a recent case from the Supreme Court of Canada that called the Queen and Jarvis witch had to do with the reasonable expectation of privacy and the crime of voyeurism involving a high high school teacher who surreptitiously filmed his female students with a pen camera then we will be talking talking about some issues arising having to do with with sentencing and consecutive versus concurrent sentencing in two very high profile profile cases the e. so-net case involving the mass shooting at a mosque in Quebec and also also the MacArthur sentencing which involved a serial killer who targeted LGBT persons in Toronto then we will get to our third topic which is another recent Supreme Court of Canada the Orphan Well Association case which has to do with who should pay for decommissioned or abandoned oil sites when the company in question goes bankrupt so we will discuss discuss those three cases and let's jump right into it with our first case which is the Jarvis case so quickly Jarvis involved a an accused person who was an English teacher at a high school and as I mentioned he used a camera ah concealed inside a Penn which is simultaneously futuristic sounding but also very like eighties. He's inspector gadget strange so it's just an odd fact but he would use this camera concealed inside a pen to make surreptitious this video recordings of female students while they were engaged in ordinary school related activities in the common areas of school and most of the videos just seem to focus on the their faces an upper bodies and breasts of the female students and of course the students had no idea idea that they were being recorded and they obviously didn't consent to that recording the accused was charged with the offensive voyeurism. which is this section one sixty two sub one C of the Criminal Code and that is an offense that is committed by a person who you have to make a surreptitious observation or visual recording of another person who is in a in circumstances that give rise to a reasonable expectation of privacy see if the observation is done for a sexual purpose so in this case the there was no question that the video recording was done surreptitiously and so the two questions really were were they were the recordings made for a sexual purpose and really there was little doubt in the end when the evidence came out that it was but so what what the case really ends up being about is this question of within the context of this particular offence under the Criminal Code did the the female students in question have a reasonable expectation expectation of privacy and the the this actually surprisingly was a very difficult question to untangle in part because the the the the school space is at issue are semi-public common areas and this is often an issue that arises in in these kinds kinds of cases where people are observed for as or recorded for a sexual purpose in a public or semi public place and the question is did they have a reasonable symbol expectation of privacy and if so what does that even mean there the court of Appeal in this case I think the Court of Appeal of Ontario they split on the question of reasonable expectation of privacy with the majority saying actually no there was no reasonable expectation of privacy held by these girls and the teacher would have been acquitted according according to according to the court of appeal when it went to the Supreme Court of Canada the court split on this quest they all agreed that the a key they allowed the appeal and they found that the Supreme Court of Canada unanimously found that these the girls in this case I did have a reasonable expectation of privacy and therefore they the accused would have been and should be convicted where they differed as between the majority which was written by a Chief Justice Wagner and the concurring opinion which was written by Madam Justice coattail? I was basically on how do you how do you an analyze how should courts analyze the question of whether or not for the purposes of the voyeurism offence offence under the Criminal Code. How do you know if someone has a reasonable expectation of privacy? What the what the majority ended up saying was basically a privacy is not this like all or nothing thing where you you are you have a reasonable expectation of privacy essentially in super private places like your home or your bedroom in particular but once you leave those protected spaces you you have no privacy anymore and and for the purposes of this offense tissue recorded for a sexual purpose no matter what a so instead they came up with this very contextual test which which involved no less than nine factors to decide whether or not in any particular case someone had a reasonable expectation of privacy so the the considerations included included the place where the person was when she was observed or recorded the nature of the conduct whether it was obsolete mere observation observation or recording so it was like just a peeping tom or a recording was there did the person who was wrote the manner in which the observation recording was done the subject matter of the content and any rules or policies that govern the recording in question so like in this particular case there was a school policy that said that he couldn't do what he did with the accused did number seven is the relationship attention between the person who was observed or recorded in the person who did the observing or recording so here you had this relationship kind of a power imbalance between the the teacher and the students and then the purpose for which observation or recording was done here the that was essentially for for sexual reasons which it it should be in any case in which this is this comes up and then finally the personal attributes of the person who was observed or recorded and the court said this list of considerations incinerations is not exhaustive and not every consideration will be relevant in every case the I have sort of essentially to two thoughts and am I am curious to get Hillary and Oliver your thoughts on this case as well but my kind of to to sort of takeaway questions or or comments were number one you look at that list of nine factors none of which is in there may be more? It's not an exhaustive list and not every one of those would will it will even be relevant in every case so you know the the question really comes up is known in criminal laws like the fair warning doctrine and it's the idea that we should all every citizen should be able to know in advance what is criminal criminal and what is not criminal and so a person should be able to know you know when they set about to surreptitiously record people for sexual purposes without their consent they should know whether or not they can do it for a whether or not it's criminal or not and so I mean Hilary's laughing and the reason why I phrased it that way is in a way to show on the one hand. It is a problem to have a criminal final offense that is is is so kind of vague in a way in terms of the analysis so really no no one will know in a particular case unless it's the circumstances exactly like this one in Jarvis. A person will not know if what they're doing is criminal or not until L. A. Judge or even maybe more several judges on a court of Appeal finally decide whether the persons that were observed or recorded had a reasonable expectation of privacy and and there's because this test is something that is essentially kind of like a smell test. It's it's not obvious what the right or wrong answer will be and and and really that's that's and that's part of the critique offered by Madam Justice coattail in her concurring reasons but the reason why I stated at the way I did. which is you know people when they go about surreptitiously recording someone for sexual purposes need to know where the criminal line is? I phrased that way to kind of say you know the fair. The fair warning doctrine is important but at the same time you know I'm not personally to to to to concerned or worried about the extent to which you know peeping toms need to know whether or not they can they can record or observe surreptitiously see for their sexual purpose which is fundamentally like a creepy and pathological activity to engage in to begin with and if the consequence of of vague multi factor test like this is that persons who do engage in or wanted to engage in you know sexually motivated motivated recording of people surreptitiously if they then you know take a very very cautious approach because they never they're worried that what what they're doing might go over the line into the criminal then all the better. That's that's that's fine with me. What do you guys think about that question? I mean is an important Horton aspect of the rule of law that people have to be able to figure out what the law is but that said there are so many provisions of the law criminal and otherwise that do not satisfy that criterion that I am not especially concerned about this one I think you're right that it is a bit of a smell task but there are lots of other provisions of the criminal code and other unlawful acts that depend on a lot of subjective factors on the weighing or balancing variety of different factors. I mean the fact that you can't get your lawyer to tell you how a case is gonNA come out. you know even if you know what you can prove kind of goes to show that that you can never be sure exactly what the law is so you know Oh. I think it's an issue but I guess DOPP. Particular concern hadn't really occurred to me in the context of this case yeah and the the the other the other issue that is something that honestly did not occur to me but then I saw quite a bit of commentary on this question both in the there's an article in the Globe and Mail 'em by was Pam. I'm not sure how to pronounce her. Last name Pam Rick and Moya Hey can head who the title is The Supreme Court's Jarvis ruling delivers a win for privacy but it's a missed opportunity for equality and along the same theme Professor Emma Cunliffe from UBCV Faculty of Law had a series of tweets which essentially said this is a good ruling and and you know the the sort of contextual factors are are all fine but the criticism is that the the court reached an equality protecting result without engaging explicitly in in unequality based analysis and that they what they fail to basically acknowledge was the gendered context of Voyeurism and and the fact that it's it's it's no coincidence that in this case you had a man who was recording surreptitiously for a sexual purpose purpose young women and she pointed to the factum of a leaf and which was was an intervening at the Supreme Court word of Canada which explicitly was an I think I think it's what is the women's legal education and Action Fund. I hope I got that right and in their factum they basically said that the court needs to explicitly acknowledge that this kind of activity and indeed the the the underlying purpose for this provision in the criminal code is to sort of combat. What is in essence a form of gender-based violence and you know I? I don't know I guess the part part of me. Thanks I'm on one hand. I think you know that's all that's all one hundred percent true. I think on the other hand I'm not sure to to what extent it would change the legal test that would be applied and I don't know necessarily what because certainly the offense would also also be made out if it happened to be say a woman that was surreptitiously recording another woman or a man or a man recording a man and so forth it's not it's not explicit in the offense that it has to be a you know a a male on female offense though I think it's probably in the vast majority of cases just by virtue of the fundamental creepy -ness of of men it is going to be that way. Eh So I part of me just wonders like you know to what extent would it have added to or change the analysis to explicitly kind of acknowledge that fact so I'm I'm wondering Hillary you're you're the you're the woman here today so I wonder what do you think about that on behalf of women everywhere. Please speak on there so I don't know I mean I'm like you. I haven't I don't haven't really worked through what difference that would make. I mean I will say yeah. I think one of the other differences between the majority and the concurring opinion related to weather this understanding of reasonable expectation of privacy is it is the same one as in charter section eight analysis right yet whether this is a separate sort of thing that should be treated differently because your prism is different than you know state surveillance and that intuitively makes sense to me but I read a blog by Teresa gasa who has stopped much much more deeply than I have about these issues and and she made an interesting point which is that you know the very the fact that this was even contentious as to whether there's a reasonable expectation of privacy your privacy here goes to show that we have some some real problems and incidentally the this seems to me to reflect a very civilian type approach to privacy where they haven't haven't taken this really stark location-based. If you're in private in public you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in any run approach. I mean I teach a case called. Leo versus Google where this woman is annoying. I know that one st is sitting on her stoop and it's a hot day and so her she sweating in her closer sticking to her and I guess you can see her nipples or whatever but anyway she gets captured by the Google Street view car and is out there on the Internet rob purposes and I think the the Quebec court very rightly said this is an invasion of privacy I mean she was in public but she wasn't like in public for all purposes and in any event so it sounds like the Supreme Court is finally catching up to that more nuance to privacy but sort back to what to resist Gaza said she said that let's see I have it here so the problem with the minority approach may lie in what this case which must have seemed like a no brainer into so many white well the way the Supreme Court that the trial judge struggled with his own perceptions of the young woman in question were putting it out there and so this is a quote from the trial the judge she said it may be that female students mode of attire may attract a debate about appropriate reactions of those who observed such a person leading up to whether there there is unwarranted and disrespectful ogling and so Teresa says while perhaps the Court of appeals focus on the public nature of the school and its hallways is also influenced that's idea that women's bodies in public spaces are there for consumption and that without the majority's contextual approach which directs assist to consider lots of factors that the courts below are going to just keep screwing this often behaving in really sexist ways so I thought that was interesting argument in favor of this sort of section eight contextual approach in that you need it to drag the judicial dinosaurs kicking and screaming out of this view that that you know she was asking for it basically to me. I struggled a little bit with whether privacy really is is what is the heart of the matter and if the the statute needs a rethinking because when you look at that that list of doctors things like like power imbalance. I don't really know how being on the wrong side of a power imbalance Alan suggests you have a higher expectation of privacy but it certainly seems relevant to the moral blame worthiness of the conduct. We're talking about right. I wonder in a way if you know this is a huge problem that I think that the scope of how much this happens. I'm sure if we found out would blow people's minds there are creepy dudes everywhere and they all have cameras now. Every single creepy dude has a camera with him at all all times and it's really easy to Sarah Tisch Asli take a picture so you know I agree that which this is happening I think is a huge huge problem. It's a huge risk for women and it's a huge perpetuation of the very problems that leaf was outlining and I don't know if keeping it tied to a reflex patient at privacy is where the best way to get at discouraging this type of conduct which to me is about dominance not privacy quite so much. How would you do it? I don't know but I mean I think what you said is syrup. Tissues see recording people for a sexual purpose. You said it should be enough. Is that not enough right. It does make you wonder what it is right. It's a it's a good question. I guess what it does is it almost makes the if someone is being recorded for for a sexual purpose in in a circumstance where it's they have no reasonable expectation of privacy than it shouldn't be criminal is almost like a dream version of that so you're in a strip club. I'm your take in your recording. I mean people have obviously consented to be reviewed in certain ways but not to be recorded and so does it matter the there's no reasonable expectation of privacy in that circumstance. She thinks he that would be that would be covered by another subsection of that particular provision I think it's section one sixty two so this case was under section one sixty two sub one sub sea but there's a subway and a sub be and some say is if there's someone so they are they're still has to be a reasonable expectation of privacy but if it is in a place in which a person can be reasonably expected to be nude to expose his or her genital organs or anal regions or breasts or to be engaged aged in explicit sexual activity and be is sort of similar to that so I think the question is I guess you're in that area. It's not so like in the doctor's office well. You definitely have a reasonable expectation of privacy there right so that's what I was just wondering what the what the I yeah I didn't understand what the consequence of being in a place where you would expect to see that's interesting so so here's okay okay so you still would need to have a reasonable expectation of privacy or the victim would in all of these instances but you don't have it doesn't have to be done for a sexual sexual purpose if it is in a place where one would customarily see naked people or people engaged in sexual activity so in the I I guess it would be like if someone's set up a security camera I suppose in a strip club they could be they could trigger the voyeurism offense you because they're not doing it for a sexual purpose but and then the question would be is there a reasonable expectation of privacy a strip club and then you'd have to go through that whole analysis because I don't know but we were imagining Sir we're trying to figure out whether you need a reasonable expectation of privacy so that might be an example where it makes a difference yeah. I mean that would be perhaps a hard case but I I don't know because the thing is the reasonable expectation of privacy really has to do. It's an incomplete concept because because it's reasonable expectation of privacy to be free from what is always the question so it's like is there reasonable expectation of privacy to be free the from surface recordings for a sexual purpose or any recordings at all you know and that's the question is ultimately normative Tiv- and and it's one of those ones that reasonable people will disagree on and so it's really hard to know an advance what the right answer is ever going to be and and that's why I think Jarvis's Jeff Ford right because it moves US quite a bit further fraum. You're in public so you have no reasonable expectation of privacy yeah definitely yeah cool so so just in the interest of time maybe will. Let's wrap up Jarvis and thank you Sir Thank Hugh that's the segment Gong so moving onto our second topic I and that is the topic of the sentencing issues that arose from these two very high profile sentencing decisions that we had in Canada recently one was the the be so net sentencing and the other was the MacArthur sentencing and a lot of people were sort of taken aback act by the fact that in both cases people convicted of you know among the most heinous crimes that we know of were given sentences where they they there was the possibility that in their lifetimes they could get parole they they could have been given consecutive sentences where it would have been twenty five to life times for every one of their victims which would mean they would never be able to get out of jail but but in both cases a serial killer in in Toronto and a mass shooter in in Quebec were were both given concurrent sentences which meant that in theory both could one day be free so hillary you were you were thinking about this issue and these these cases and and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on on how how you've been thinking about them. Yeah I found it really interesting. I mean you've got these two sentences that were that were handed down within in a week or two of each other as you mentioned you've got Bruce Macarthur and he's the serial killer who was murdering gay men in in in Toronto he killed eight men and when he was arrested the was another one in his in his home presumably the the future ninth victim and and he had dismembered these men he had prayed on their vulnerability. I mean really horrific horrific crimes uh-huh and exams descend net who opened fire in a mosque and Quebec and killed six men and seriously injured five more I mean there's no doubt that these are horrible. Murders that are worthy of a significant sentences and of course they were both sentenced to life imprisonment which is an automatic sentence for these offensives the issue that were interested in here is the issue of a parole eligibility. The automatic attic sentence for murder is life imprisonment with no eligibility parole for twenty five years and until really very recently multiple sentences sentences for multiple murders could not be consecutive so it was not possible to add and those twenty five year parole ineligibility onto each other the was just twenty five year rural ineligibility and then in two thousand eleven as part of Stephen Burs at a tough on crime agenda The was a change to the Criminal Code of Canada which allowed those parole eligibility periods to be stacked onto each other so the sentences could be consecutive rather than concurrent so this only something we've had for not even eight eight years in our criminal code and it reflects a very sort of American as opposed to British approach to sentencing the Brits don't really do this us and the Americans as people who watch a lot of television US television out they may be surprised to know that we haven't always done this but it's it's rather an American thing okay so MacArthur was sentenced to know to life in prison with no parole for twenty five years and as I said he'd killed eight people so in theory I suppose he could have had two hundred years of parole ineligibility and he's a I think he's in his sixties so his twenty-five years takes him into his nineties. I believe Visa Nets is a young man and interestingly family he was given life with no parole eligibility for forty years. Now you may note that that is not a multiple of twenty five life the way that the judge his name is you each. Ot It's always fun to pronounce I know I I love file. I love French names that you know ostensibly have consonants in them but don't actually you. That's that's all value anyway so just as you justify this sentence of indecision of more than twelve hundred hundred paragraphs I might add I was going to read the thing and then I realized it was twelve hundred Eric so anyway the way he justified this was to find the the provisions of the Criminal Code that required these twenty five year periods of parole ineligibility unconstitutional violation of section twelve of the a charter which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment and so I think both the Macarthur decision the macarthur sentence and the Senate sentence reflect lacked the view on the part of judges that just because someone has done something terrible doesn't mean that you pile along the concurrent sentences so in theory as you said rob up decent at MacArthur could be eligible for parole within their lifetimes. Let us be clear. This does not mean they will ever be paroled. I think macarthur in particular is unlikely to ever be paroled. Be Sonnets it's harder to say but the reason I was interested in this issue is because ever went nuts when they only got when they only we got life in prison with twenty five or forty years and in particular people interpreted this as a signal by the courts dot on the lives of gay men and the lives of Muslim people were worth less than the lives of of like Hetero white people which I thought was interesting right because it suggests that the only goal the only purpose of sentencing is denunciation or is some sort of reflection palpable the crimes are and that's not the case so there couple of issues here one. Is You know whether the sentences were too lenient enter whether they weren't and whether given the principles of sentencing appropriate and the other is whether it's actually unconstitutional due to have these back to back periods of parole ineligibility such that someone you might never be eligible for parole and I think that's a really interesting question to I'll just say re flee. I don't think that I mean I think these guys are likely to spend the rest of their lives in jail especially MacArthur and I don't really care that much about the symbolism of you know the the the the concurrent sentences send. It I'm more of a pragmatic practical person he's not to be rehabilitated. He is dangerous. He won't get out and that's you know dead wants to spend money doesn't have to be dead twice or fifty years or one hundred years out. Be Sanada Annette. I think a little more interesting right whether he deserves a chance at rehabilitation a chance for parole in his he'll be sixty seven when he's the eligible for parole. I don't have a problem with that right. I mean I think he will likely be a vastly different person than than he is now and given that are sentencing principles are not just about punishment and they should never be about vengeance. They're also about rehabilitation deterrence and other things things I think to me that's okay the constitutional issue. I don't know I'm definitely not an expert. GRUDEN cruel and unusual punishment section twelve strikes me as a little bit of a stretch that that would constitute will unusual punishment but I guess the idea that tonight tonight any hope at all is cruel. I've seen some people refer to it as a death sentence the incarceration that otherwise known as life imprisonment yeah well that's exactly right so that was I wasn't entirely convinced by that but the idea that you do not all hope is cruel and unusual. You know I mean there are crimes that are so horrible that no-one should have any reasonable expectation speaking of reasonable expectations of ever. We're getting out at I don't know I don't know I'm I'm. I'm open to having my My opinion changed about this and to hearing from people people who know more than I do but it's not obviously cruel unusual to me well. I mean just speaking for myself. when when you sort of we were talking about this topic beforehand and the the idea of redemption and the case that sort of jumped into my mind is the the case of of Stan Tuckey Williams. I don't know if you guys know about him. He was essentially the founder of the crips gang in in in the states and was convicted of a senselessly killing a number of people during a robbery I think of convenience store and in in the early eighties and then over the the decades of his incarceration he he he changed dramatically he engaged in this you know appear to have this sort of transformation and redemption and became this this this this anti-violence anti-gang violence in particular figure he wrote nine books warning children and teenagers about the dangers offers of gang life. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times and for the Nobel Prize for literature once in nineteen ninety-three he videotaped a message at San Quentin prison where he was housed that was shown to four hundred gang members and he helped broker and actual truce between the rival crips and bloods gangs during the first game ever gang summit in Los Angeles so he you know he did a a ton of stuff to like actually not just you know now say that he was anti-violence potentially take steps that even from prison he was able to try and reduce the very kind of violence is that he himself had engaged in and promoted and he was sentenced to death and he pled for clemency from then then Governor Schwarzenegger in two thousand and five and Schwarzenegger denied the plea for clemency in part relying lying on the fact that that Tuckey Williams still he he's still denied that he was guilty of the offence for which he had been convicted and Oh you know Schwarzenegger essentially wasn't sure whether or not all of this stuff that he was doing was essentially just for show was it true was a true redemption and so he did did it was he was executed in two thousand and five and it's one of those and I think there was a movie I think Jamie Foxx may have played him in in the movie and you know it's one of those. It's the case that you think of in my mind of you know showing that that change change from the most vials you know a violent person who's convicted of the worst kind of offense can and actually happen and so doesn't that mean that there must be some way for such a person to have a chance to get out and and it speaks to the cases like the ones we're talking about probably be so net just because of his his a youthful age and you know he's got a long life in in theory ahead of him as far as we know and and so that means a long time in which he might change and become a different in person but on the other hand I mean I I mean aside from the death penalty. We're just talking here about you. Know Pushing off the possibility of parole you know it seems to me that there ought to be some place some mechanism through which true rehabilitation and redemption after a very lengthy sentence could actually result in some kind of release but but you know the question is you you know how would you structure it. I mean I suppose just the possibility of parole might be enough and then it would be up to the Parole Board to assess whether or not the change was was real yeah. I don't know it's it's a tough one. That's this is a this is a real difficult question. You seem to be placing a lot of weight on rehabilitation which you know I idea that we need to inquire into whether rehabilitation's possible but I think the fact that it's possible doesn't answer the question fully right. The question still has to be answered. How much weight should we give to the fact that someone may be able to contribute whether inside or outside prison I guess in this case would have to be outside to make a difference French? So how much weight do you give to that as opposed to the goals of retribution deterrence you know etcetera and also protecting having the public from a possibly dangerous person right exactly so I think it's right to inquire as to whether he he could be rehabilitated sated and I think the question about whether someone's life can have any good purpose is kind of different right. I I have a hard time imagining that anyone's life is such that no good could ever come of it. I think you need to focus on particularly in the Canadian context. We're talking about parole the ability to be rehabilitated such that they can you know contribute outside of prison and so that's obviously an important consideration but it seems to me that even if you answered that question yes it doesn't necessarily mean that someone should the poor old or should have the opportunity for parole run to me. There's a number of different questions that sort of our balled up in this and one is what do we do with our worst offenders vendors and the other one is as question of consecutive versus concurrent sentencing and in the most extreme cases. It's hard to have too much of a problem with these guys getting extreme long parole ineligibility at least one of these guys but in the general context context that notion of like is still ten cars. You'LL DO two years ten times and all of a sudden car theft run becomes twenty years in jail has some intuitive logic but is fundamentally unjust way to punish people that I think is is not befitting of the crimes so I do think that we have to be careful as Canadians and falling down that path I it can seem okay in the most extreme circumstances but can lead to horrible rable results in a more run of the mill crimes and I do wonder with respect to what do you do with these people who have such such such atrocious acts that they've been convicted of but another thing to think about is when twenty five forty years from now. What kind of supervision are we going to be able to do? You know what's IT GONNA look like in forty years with respect to electronic surveillance for instance. I would imagine that would probably probably be at a stage where if the state wanted to know where you were. They know where you are every single second of every single day. There's not much you can do about it so the idea of kind of we're going to make a decision right now once in fraud that's going to cut off any possibility for extremely long time where it may be that forty years from now our jail system looks credibly. It'll be different and almost no one's in jail because you don't really need to put people in jail anymore because you can there the house arrest etc to a point where it's so secure are and so effective that it you know ends up being accepted by society as a as a better alternative so it just it's it does seem to me to be a bit bit odd to sort of forecast and also I always have a problem with this. when years of people's lives is are treated as just a metric to describe how bad the thing they did. Is You know it's not really about those extra fifteen years. It's about having a message that this person is more blameworthy than the twenty five year person's gotTa give some higher number and to me that that seems seems like a ration on somewhat dangerous way to do sentencing the sentence ought to be crafted based on you know what punishment is needed in this circumstance for this person for this offense in order to accomplish those goals including denunciation deterrence etcetera etcetera but it ought not to be just a comparative exercise that says well. It's worse than that one so it's got to be higher it needs to be personalized and appropriate and all the circumstances yeah but aren't you the raving Leftie who wanted prisoners for food we search good weekend trips to to. I Dunno Disneyland. Wherever ever Yeah Disneyland is no I do? I do believe that prison conditions ought to be as nice as we can realistically make them in the idea of having having a added bonus terrible incarceration for your next party. Your punishment is is not really necessary that we should should. We should have nice prisons. We'd have a better society if we did. I'm not saying that they should be you know the luxury resorts Maybe not Disneyland but you know six flags. Maybe well the luxury that we don't have at the moment. Is Your your presence for too much longer because we know you have to run. Thank you so we will we will ring the segment bell because Oliver's got to go run and pick up kids yeah for just one but I do. I'm so so yes maybe I'll jump into the case. I wanted to talk about today. Which is orphan wells decision from didn't he direct citizen Kane? Yeah that's who oh man. It would be good if it was so red water not Rosebud energy got got partitioned into receivership so this is a case that's about liability to clean up abandoned oil and gas ask swells and who ought to pay if indeed the company that owns the wells goes into bankruptcy process so should the company be forced to pay before its creditors get paid or should the obligation to remediate the wells be he treated like any other unsecured liability assuming there wasn't some security already on there for that for that interest and and therefore were you know unless there's a dividend leftover at the end of the bankruptcy. You'RE GONNA get nothing in the public are going to pay for it. If this sounds familiar a was the subject Deva fairly recent Supreme Court candidates Asian from twenty twelve called Agitation bowater and so I was really surprised that this case ace went to the Supreme Court of Canada at all because the interaction of environmental remediation and bankruptcy or C. C. Aa the companies creditors arrangement act restructuring was so recently discussed by the Supreme Court of Canada so broadly what happened happen here's his company had relatively small oil and Gas Company had about one hundred twenty seven properties and it goes into a receivership I leading due to its bankruptcy and the receiver says well look a hundred of these are entirely value lists. There's only about twenty that makes any sense to keep so I'm just gonNA renounce or disclaim my interest in those other wells good luck for all y'all dealing with them but that is not something that I'm concern myself with. I'M GONNA aim to only maximize the value can get for the creditors out of these wells leaving aside sort the the moral issue of abandoning this you know the Cesspool stew whoever will clean them up that is what a receiver trustee is supposed post to do right. They're supposed to maximize the value that can be gotten out of a distressed company or individual and bankruptcy in order to ensure the creditors get paid as as much as possible so in Alberta though they the law said the regulator can order receiver or trustee to remediate the eight because they're currently the person who has the de facto and legal possession of those those assets so just like anybody else they can say hey buddy urine control of that that that will go clean it up so they make that order and the receiver and then the trustee in bankruptcy because receiver it became the trustee says we'll look attitude. Bowater Supreme Court at Canada said that no these are these kind of obligations are compromisable in bankruptcy that these are effectively monetary amounts that are owned by the company they are unsecured creditors as if it's going to cost ten million bucks to clean up these wells that's ten million bucks that will will get to after all the secured creditors are are taken can care of and the Bird Accord Queen's bench says yeah that's what abitibi-price water says the British Court of Appeal agrees though with Justice Sheila Martin dissenting thing of course he's now on the Supreme Court of Canada so US record a candidate sat sobbing because of course Justice Martin did not take part in this but so so that's the tension you know what do you do with these orphan wells. Do you clean them up. Do you give them effectively a super priority over all other creditors editors and that could be employees that could be you know the other kind of sympathetic obligations that a company is is or you say look you made a mass. You have to clean it up. Go clean and cleaning it up. You don't get to cut a checks to all your various people who invested in your failed venture before cleaning up your mess you could almost I think think of it as a sort of proceeds of regulatory dilatory crime type type issue you don't you haven't made that money. You're considering giving out to the various creditors until you've you've complied with the legal obligations. It took to make that money including cleaning up that that mass that they've left so you have this tension attention it was the same tension that was at issue advocacy bowater and the spring quarter cannon in that case said look you have three things we gotta find that there it was a creditor who is owed a debt or obligation that it has to have been incurred before the person became bankrupt and you must be able to attach a monetary value to that debt and in the water case very similar forestry company had left they left contaminated sites the court looked at it and said okay well the the government's creditor they dat the liability was incurred before he went into bankruptcy and we can estimate how much it will cost the cleanest things up so ABC. You have a nice test in its met in this case Abbott Bowater remediation obligations are debts compromisable in bankruptcy bankruptcy just like any other obligation at they have and secured creditors are going to get paid out. I so in this case a spring quarter Canada says no we're not gonNA follow the advocacy bowater result and in fact act. We're going to find that in this case. The Alberta regulator was not even a creditor that creditor in the ordinary sense you wouldn't think of the regulator as being a creditor but in the bankruptcy sense that's usually read very broadly as anybody who can show that there's an obligation from the bankrupt to that person that can be put into monetary terms. You try to make a creditor because you want to deal with all claims at the same time within the bankruptcy but the court said in this case will environmental regulatory bodies can be creditors in respect of non monetary obligations in the in the Timmy border case but in the orphan wells case the court says No. They're not a creditor they say the they regulator acted in the public interest and for the public good and issuing these orders and is therefore Nada creditor so this was not part of the Aba Tibi bowater test at all but the court said the other side of things well. Is that really a creditor when the government tells you to clean something up. Does that really creditor a relationship. The Supreme Court candidate says no but what was interesting about this case was the descent and again it's similar the players who had just as she just wagner for the majority and Raba give you three guesses who wrote the dissent. I'm GONNA guess that this judge is names rhymes with Flo Tei but she was joined by Justice Mall Davor who had been in the majority on Abba Tibi bowater and they say hold on so you just through this test out the window. This is not at all with the test was from Abbott's heavy bowater and you didn't even have the you know the decency to tell us that that was what you were doing. There's no acknowledgement in the majority tests in the majority judgment that they had in fact really departed hard from this they instead appointed to the fact that in Abitur bowater there was an outstanding Nafta claim there've been expropriation and there is some suggestion Ashton in the lower court judgment that there was a monetary desire from Newfoundland that was really driving them but the the sense has hold on we didn't rely on that at all at the Supreme Court of Canada level we completely that that was not a relevant fact in the analysis of which justice a small David who's concurring with me was in the majority and so they say you know what you've done. Is You have just completely overruled that test. You introduced a new definition of creditor which exempts regulators acting in the public interest and if you think about it that's a big deal right for the the bankruptcy system it effectively will give regulators a super priority in bankruptcy over other creditors if they can say a in the public interest. I need to clean this up on as you. This need to ask the set and the other outstanding things that you ought to have done you haven't done you gotta do them. Before before you can have any dividend going out to your creditors now. I'm not saying that I disagree with that and in fact I strongly disagreed with the Aba Tibi bowater decision decision and I'm happy with the result here you know based on my views as to what sort of priorities ought to be given to these types of things but the descent is right this is absolutely overruling the Abbotabad water approach and introducing a new you test that will have significant ramifications for the law of insolvency and so it does raise these questions of society's changing and our views of what corporations ought to be able to do to our environment is changing our morals are changing in on the last ten years or less than ten years ago and so what is the court to do in these situations with these changing times I think not being handcuffed to precedent and and being willing to change great the same time you had a lot of people invest a lot of money on the predictability of the abitibi-price water results. It's less than ten years ago. Can you really just throw it out so I was you know curious to hear you say that they were throwing it out right. The majority said that they were applying abitibi-price applying. They introduced this new question of you're you're not a creditor if you're regulator acting in the public interest which was not part of the tippy bowater test and dramatically changes ages that really and I think frankly if that had been the law when Abbot water was decided Abitur plotter would have gone the other way because it newfoundland was a regulator acting in the public interest telling these people to clean up their mess. It was the same facts there is this Nafta dispute in the background but the Supreme Court said that that was irrelevant even just as mclachlan's dissenting reasons you know without pointing out the majority relying on it which they didn't they didn't rely on that NAFTA part to any substantive effect and she said yeah the trial judge was off on this lark with this crazy thing had nothing to do with anything and so the the the majority authorities in the in the in this case the orphan wells case seems to kind of have dug deep into the advocacy record to find some fact they hang their hat on that means Abadi Budweiser is now an absolute one off the legal issue. Is You know what's the priority of remediation in a situation where the government has expropriated created assets and isn't a Nafta fight with the company like that's the time that that cases can be relevant anymore so it say it is you you know I think one of those cases where the honest thing would have been to say yes sorry about that guys. we made a mistake year. We ought to have not set out such such a stringent tests that was gonna make basically all remediation obligations debts compromisable in bankruptcy and that's why the you know the scent says if you you did this without saying you're doing it and you can't do that. And of course you know having Justice Moldavia joined that sent makes it all that much more powerful because he was on the majority but then two judges who were in the majority in Aba tippy bowater are in the majority here so it also raises the question of what does it mean to sign onto judgment meant you know do they have. Do you almost have an obligation to explain no. This wasn't what we signed onto the defense has it wrong. You know we always considered this or do you not maybe don't the judgment says what it says and you can say something later without having to explain yourself. I don't know what do you. I think the thing that I found interesting about this was it seems like what the court is. Implicitly doing as is a side from the the the the the changing but not really or you know changing the law without saying that that's what you're doing if you think about the issue of like what what to do with these abandoned oil wells you know there was it was a failure of regulation that led to this because what should have happened is is that if a company is granted a license to a to extract oil from the ground there it should have to pay upfront into either fund or or set aside into some special account the money that would be necessary to clean it up in the event that the company goes bankrupt so the problem by making them secured creditors making the government secured creditors these abandoned wells suppose you could characterize. Is it that way yeah I mean it sort of reminds me of there's this thing called the the ship source oil pollution fund and dealt with a case involving that a over a decade ago with the DOJ the OJ and it's this fund where there forever a liter of oil that tanker Kerry's the company that carries it has to pay a certain number of pennies into this giant fund the ship source oil pollution fund and then what happens is if any person cleans is up an oil spill whether they are caused it or not are they just sort of showed up in and we're good Samaritans and they can go to this fund as an insurance and get paid back for any of their expenses and doing so and and so what it does is it creates a mechanism to ensure that that oil spills get cleaned up. There's money for that accumulated and it and it's money that is paid for by the very entities that profit from the carrying of that oil and the creation one of that risk of oil spills so it seems to me kind of similar that like there should be some kind of mechanism upfront that that makes sure that the money is already ready. They're waiting and if the company goes bankrupt that's fine because there's a there's a a an insurance fund ready to go and apparently there has has been regulatory there have been regulatory changes across the country heading in that direction and perhaps a perverse consequence of this decision. Is that maybe that kind of regulatory momentum might be slowed down because now the government can swoop in bankruptcy and scoop up the remaining monies of the company to pay for you know the the abandonment costs yeah. That's really interesting. I mean there is something something to that effect in this scheme but it's not nearly that strong and the companies I think basically it to maintain a certain amount of liquidity set aside but I don't think they have to pay eight and that's my understanding. If I'm wrong I apologize but there is some scheme but they talk about it in one of the decisions one of the commentaries I read about it that there is this idea of sort sort of the Alberto difference that we're going to really encourage this kind of development and so we're not going to require extensive mighty set aside and it does sort of feel to me a little bit like changing the goalposts for if you made a decision as a society that we're going to encourage this type of development and we're going to do that by not having a very strict standards to ensure you clean things up. I'm like well. Maybe then you as a society decided that this was something that you were going to do if it was gonna be clean it all it was going to be a public expenditure to in order to support the development of the industry. If that was a decision that you made so I mean it's interesting you say the government this may slow the momentum but what's interesting here here too is that of course this is just a statute and so the bankruptcy and insolvency act could be amended in either way either to make it more clear that environmental mental claims have a priority or to say no these are claims compromisable in bankruptcy if they said that explicitly then you would have paramount's. That's the argument that would win the day the bankruptcy insolvency gets to override provincial law and that's what I was. That's what I was Gonna say that it's not only failure regulation relation but just a failure of the legislative drafters on on I guess as you say that can be redressed and legislatures can do what they want based on a proper Democratic Arctic discussion of the issues of how to balance things like promoting industry cetera versus you know who should bear the cost of pollution. I think that really should be legislative decision rather than come down to some interpretation of what counts as a creditor I that's really well put and you. I would have expected frankly that the Abitur bowater case would have resulted in a response from parliament in order to strengthen the environmental protections actions. It didn't add Lotta time to do so so I'll be interested to see if this is it just pure inertia that one went one way. We did nothing the other the decision goes another way parliament still will do nothing or was that a signal that parliament was in fact happy with the ABA tip water outcome find out we shall find out and your is it your son. You're going to pick up your sign. We'll find out if his daddy loves him spoiler alert theory and now for our regularly scheduled segment obiter dicta in which we each got to make a non-binding recommendation that may or may not to be legal in nature so what is your odor for this week Oliver Yeah thanks rob on so my obiter is just reminisces of reminisces. That's not a word senses remnants. That's memories memories of a trip that I just got back from where I went down to Los Angeles to visit my mother-in-law amazing time and at some just the hilarious lock in that we went to Palm Springs we took mirrors mom and her sister and my brother-in-law in law we all met I went to Palm Springs together and the Great State at the ace hotel went to Joshua Joshua Tree National Park and then the day we about to leave was the third rainiest day in Palm Springs history. The absolute recorded history I suppose but of the days that I could have gone there. Were two that were worse but every other day the last two hundred years has been better but but in a way it was it was so special to see that being who who gets to see the desert you know flooded and rain for one and also we had an insane sort of race against road closures to get get out of Palm Springs. There's seven roads out of palm springs and we were on our seventh road that we tried her palm springs the other six having you've been closed either moments before we got there or a few minutes before we got there but basically every time to to a road there is a fresh police siren saying say nope it's flooded turnaround. Go back the other way and so is one of those things where it's all very white-knuckle early when you're doing it but afterwards words of Santa this fun little vacation adventure. NFL -LICA- like a action movie or something trying to escape Palm Springs and everything everything was okay okay and I got I usually do the driving with my family but we had showed up at the airport and the person they're penteker plays said Ed first off happy birthday to birthday next week also see your driver's license expires next week the car so I was the the navigator for this Palm Springs Ocean adventure to to get out of town and coming up with road after road that was blocked so it was a an adventure and lots of fun in retrospect in the in the in the moment stress stress around but you know ah things things happen and you get through it and I'd I'd a lovely trip to California awesome. That's a good one sounds like fun. Yeah I like Palm. Springs have been there a few times as well and the Joshua Tree Park is amazing. It's unbelievable like it's such a cool place and have been our concern. I heard about all the damage that have been done Joshua Tree Park during the government shutdown and I'm sure it was extensive but it wasn't noticeable to the untrained eye at least the places I went into which was a relief because I kind of vision of there being very obvious devastation yeah so hillary. What is your orbiter for this week so quite often my obiter come from twitter and this week is no exception? I found this amazing tweet that it is GonNa Change my computer using life so I'll just read the tweet it says hello. My name is Graham I have a PhD in computing and I'm a senior accessibility accessibility consultant but when I wanted type zone tq like e with the little accent on a windows laptop I go to beyonce as Wikipedia via page and copies letter from there and then just in a subsequent tweet he says if you use a Mac if you just hold down the letter like an e if you just push the Iki and hold it down for a second all of these accent options pop above and I have been using a Mac or as I can remember I know right. This is amazing. Try that right now. I didn't believe it. I tried it. I'm like no if that were sure I would have discovered by accident accidentally holding down the key look at that isn't that amazing seven different forms of e and so easy easy. What what's The e with a dot on top one dot one dot number dots is the timeout but I don't know but one doc hold on now? I've got a there's a line across the top that I also. I'm not sure would it means okay so the one is excellent to His Excellency aw iggy threes on silk flags than the fours the with the Tacoma and I don't know whether five supposed to be as some sort of Tilda. It's looks like a straight line but maybe it's a Tilda hold on. I'M GONNA pick five and see if it's now. It's a straight line. It's it's like the way that you indicate. It's like The long pronounciation of Avowal I think but yeah dot EH D- Under the sedillo yeah exactly the last one Sedillo so opted I should have had I been better prepared for my obiter convict them. I would have looked up numbers five and six the the line in the DOT. I wonder whether there I don't know anyway but so this is this is going to change and my life like how did I never know this before you wouldn't you think that so I've been using a MAC since at least at least two thousand and two I oh I think before that okay so museum macaroni lifetime. Would you not think that I would have accidentally held down an easy or a you're an eye for just a fraction of a a second too long no now. I don't know how whether this functionality goes back that far but I am amazed. It's really cool also look at that if you do it on an oh you get ah eight different ones. There's so much funds man. You're cool. This is a tremendous obiter her though does have a Tilda the eight yes so it's just so the line is definitely not the Tilda because for oh the the seventh option option is aligned and the eighth option is children right possible that there are no languages that have a tilda on the e this. I don't know you're the you're you're the PhD in linguistics yeah so that may be it because when you think of till does she think of them on as and OS. Maybe there aren't any unease but but anyway we go but anyways I figured if one listener had not heard that little chip and learned it that will be worthwhile but you have already been that one person so now it doesn't matter if anyone else I'm sure that many many people will be blown away by that factoid. That's a really cool. That's it's awesome. The bad news is that for windows that doesn't work went well too bad windows people so so I think on that note we should wrap it up and thank all of our listeners who are still with us listening and thank everyone for tuning Dan and if you are so inclined please go ahead and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell your friends tell your enemies. He's all about the show tell people to whom you're indifferent about the show and we look forward to hearing from you all soon so from Oliver Poli holy blank who is now collecting his child from School Hillary Young and me Robert Downey we will thank you and talk