20 Episode results for "Bruce Davis"

Be Like Water

The Hustle & Grit Experience

09:48 min | 8 months ago

Be Like Water

"Homeless shelters like water you put water into a cup. Becomes the cup you put water into a bottle. It becomes the bottle. You're putting the teapot. It becomes the teapot. I can crash home. P r tuning into the hustle and great experience. I'm your host. My name is Prince William's no real Prince William's and I'm here to help you flow and grow expand your mind, You can live that hustle and great lifestyle. Follow me yet and Instagram Prince William's two underscores. You can also find me at my YouTube channel Go real Prince William's if you like this content, and share my episode to all of those that you think would benefit from this red pill knowledge. The title of this episode is called how to be like water off in this episode. We're going to be discussing. Why is it important to practice adaptability in your lifestyle how to be fluid like water we're going to touch on the points thought it mean to be shapeless. How do you go with the flow of life? And what is adaptability so stay locked in and enjoy the discussion because we're going to go right into it. In the intro, you saw Bruce Lee speaking about being like water. Why is this important? What he's talking about is learning how to practice adaptability in our lives and let go of anything that doesn't serve Us in order to do that. There's a certain level of Letting Go and allowing yourself to flow or allowing yourself to be we often get in get involved in things that hold us back. We tend to let our external situations affect our internal environments which manifests negative things back into our lives disinfect takes are positive thoughts that serve us back in transfer transfer those. Such a negative thoughts which doesn't serve us at all. You can see how this is the start of many many problems water seeks to find his own level. Meaning that if you're not careful, you can manifest negative people things and circumstances into your life. You have to be careful about what you're thinking about be thinking about what you're thinking about now repeat that be thinking about what you're thinking about Bruce Lee was also talking about how much water can float in water can also crash meaning that water can build and water can also destroy so off. We had a Crossroads here. We can choose which direction we want to go. Do we want to continue to build our lives in a positive manner or do we want to grass or to enter the store Our Lives thinking negative and manifesting negative situations the process where I was when you allow yourself to be or to become like water. You're actually allow yourself to be in this in this most natural state. You're allowing yourself off. Began to supposed natural state water in his most natural state is pure energy there for you and your most natural state are flowing within pure energy. And if you allow yourself to slow and growth, there's no limitations in where you can go or what you can do. Therefore. We have to kind of fashion our lives behind that same ideal. We have to be really careful about labels. We don't realize that we are not our labors. We can be more and we can do more you are about pure energy energy needs to flow in order to grow. The the first law of thermodynamics is energy is neither created nor destroyed. Energy is always expanding. The universe is over. They always expanding since you are pure energy. You are always expanding you are made of the very particles that water is made up of water is made of the particles from the universe tell you agree that you have to Invisible gases oxygen and hydrogen bonding of invisible particles that create a very visible reality which we call water. The earth's surface is made of 3/4 water. You are made up of Life Force water every cell in your body functions via water without water you cease to exist. That's why you have to be mindful of what you say and do because you're invisible reality or go invisible thoughts. Positive or negative can create a very visible reality. Is that starting to make sense you again? You have to be mindful of what you say you into because the thoughts in The Invisible can bring the visible to your reality to allow yourself to flow is to be and be as the actual word. They'll be coming. Thursday, is the ultimate level of attainment for a male. Especially not be a non-participant in your development of people when you practice these Concepts you actually starting to become more adaptable which circles back to my original thought about being adaptable and letting go what doesn't serve you being like water is coming to these into the self-awareness and having the ability to change and your thoughts and bring and take your life into your own hands. As you become more self-aware, you're held to a standard of the knowledge that you are receiving. So you're essentially becoming a vessel. So just like a vessel when the vessel becomes full it overflows. It gives a big of his content. There are four saw you as you become more of a vessel, you're responsible for the knowledge that you receiving as you receive more knowledge and become more self-aware. You actually are giving you actually putting more into yourself so you can give more wage water becomes to cut. That's what Bruce Lee was saying. You put water in the cup. It becomes the you can create any direction of your life that you want. But which do you choose do you choose life or do you choose alternative do choose to create is to choose life to choose death is to destroy many of us are on a path that leads to destruction. We make decisions that only lead us to a path of a early death whether that beat that death be literal or whether that sometimes often metaphorical it leaves us feeling empty and unfulfilled water can destroy anything that it comes up against again Bruce Davis and water can flow or you can crash you put water in the cup. It becomes the cup water is formless yet steeled. That concept alone is deep. I'm a leave that for another video but think about that water is formless against the Palm. This is what makes us limit this and highly effective to be able to flow and to create whatever we desire in our lives. But if we choose to destroy or we choose to be negative and be on the path of Destruction it can cause us to be limited. So let's take the lessons for Bruce Lee was actually same and is this be Limitless the forms be shapeless become like them and be water monster. So in today's episode we learned about what is it mean to be a playlist how to go with the flow of life. And what is adaptability. So I want to thank you guys for listening to my content wage. Follow me on Instagram Prince William's two underscores. You can also find me at my YouTube channel. The real Prince William's please share and then tune in off more this weekly empowerment and motivation. Remember, I'm here to help you expand your mind. So you can live a hustle and grit lifestyle. I want you to flow and grow and until next time I salute you.

Bruce Lee Prince William YouTube Life Force Bruce Davis Palm
S11: Infamous: Zodiac Killer Theories

Parcast Presents

37:26 min | 10 months ago

S11: Infamous: Zodiac Killer Theories

"Time listeners, it's. And Elena, and we are thrilled to kick off the second season of Parkas presents infamous with a chilling episode from our new series crime countdown. In today's episode is definitely chilling. It's about one of the most talked about serial killers of all time. There's just one catch. We still don't know who he is. Nuts. Right? We're rounding up suspects and counting down the top ten Zodiac killer theories. So if you like what you hear, be sure to follow our new series crime countdown free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We have some incredibly creepy topics lined up that you do not want to miss, but in the meantime enjoyed this episode. When you hear Zodiac killer, you probably think of cryptograms and coated notes, how a violent murder played cat-and-mouse games with the COPS and journalists. Maybe picture the crosshairs symbol or the four innocent couples whose dates became nightmares. But people forget the most important part of solving a crime. I, witness accounts to Zodiac victims live to tell the tale. Another lived long enough to describe her killer. There's literally an witnessed report from police officer, but somehow, no one's ever caught. Caught him and not for lack of suspects because today, we're covering the top ten Zodiac killer theories. The hunt for the Zodiac killer is more than just a murder investigation. It's basically a three ring circus public amusement, and the ringmaster is the Zodiac himself. Exactly. The Zodiac wants the public distracted by the codes and the Halloween cards and horrifying notes about killing children on their way to school that way, we don't look at the real evidence and catch him. weirdos welcome to the park asked original crime countdown. I'm ash and I'm Elena every week will highlight ten fascinating stories of history's most engaging and unsettling crimes all picks by the podcast cast research God's this week's topic is going to be top ten Zodiac killer theories. This is one of those cases in its this and Jon. Benet. Ramsey that I'm like I need answers give me the answers somebody needs to give me what happened in these two cases I feel. Feel that way about the Bryce Pisa case. Yes. That's exactly if I had like a genie lamp. Yeah. I wish for two things and it's to know who killed Jon Benet Ramsey, whose, Zodiac, killer. There you go. I. Mean I love a mystery. We both do we do for sure and I love being able to like connect dots and find like missing strands that connect in baby find things other people have been found I mean that's my favorite thing when. No one else has found him. Look Good Dude, found out founded and I think this one is so enduring, probably mostly due to like the ciphers in the theatrics because you know a theatrical, a whole is a memorable one. That's very true. Let me remind you the cool part about this show is that Elena has topics and so do I. But neither of US knows which five, the other one has. Let's start the countdown. Ten. Starting off at number ten for the top Zodiac killer theories is George Hodel who Dell is known for being a suspect in the black. Murder case, thanks to his son Steve a retired LAPD had signed detective. Steve has put the theories out there that his father George killed the Black Dahlia and also is the Zodiac killer real busy, real. Busy I personally believe he is the Black Dahlia killer. Oh, me too. We talked about that on more we did and I think after going through that I really do believe Joe turned out at least said something to do with me too I. Don't know if I'm sold on the Zodiac killer theory. Well, tell me about this one. The reason is the theory is a little flimsy. Y now this is this is a very small detail, but it kinda throws a wrench in the whole thing. Okay. He wasn't in the US when the killings occurred and he only returned to the states in one, thousand, nine, hundred. Well, there is such thing as. Flyer miles or maybe he was just like flying back and forth. I'm not saying it's impossible. Jet Blue points you know. Who del also would have been a few decades older than what they stink. The Zodiac killer is okay. But again, thank, the Zodiac killer is we don't know. In a costume, we don't know he could have been a hundred and four in one of those guys that like runs marathons when he's like one, hundred four. Doing it did you don't solve this whole thing right here? I think it's a marathon runner who has one hundred and four at the time. All right. We can all go down. That's it. Well, Steve. His. Son is also an author retired LAPD homicide detective, and also an author. So that is an appealing narrative. You know homicide detective finds father guilty of most notorious murderer. It's yeah. He's like that's definitely going to sell my book. He's literally like Cha Ching, they're gonNA be flying off the shelves and whenever the Narrative is particularly appealing, it's kind of like. he has a horse in the race and I don't love that. But hotels shoe size was ten e like the Zodiac killer although another alleged Zodiac victim was killed by someone wearing a size six or seven shoe. So could just be wearing different shoes. I could throw on John's like size thirteen and go trump's and into a murder scene, and we'd all around a few times. I'm not saying it would be easy. I'm not saying it would be graceful, could do it, but I could fool you all I'm just saying. So who Dell was a columnist also for. For The San Francisco? Chronicle. In the nineteen thirties, that's the same paper that Zodiac was sending his letters and ciphers to during his killing years. I'm going to be talking about that later and it's interesting that he happened to be. You know a columnist for that paper to connection, but it's like, would you be like doing your columns and then on the side like inserting, you're like that's a lot of work to do. I'm not saying it's I. Mean writings heart and also it's a lot. That's a lot on your. I think that's what Kinda. Kicks it over the edge I'm like. Yeah, it's a lot. Does Not enough hours in the day? No. Nine. At number nine is Bruce Davis, a member of the Manson Family Heo and a convicted killer. The Bruce. Davis theory has been mainly championed by author and conspiracy theorist, Howard, Davis who claims that Bruce Davis was never pursued as the Zodiac because it would have interfered with the Manson case I mean. Okay. Now I like it would have been a good thing because it's like kill two birds with one stone. You would think so right? I would think. So while Bruce Davis was actually one of the first members of the family to commit murder on Charlie, Manson's orders. All right and he was convicted of killing two people. So he has it in him. Yeah. He definitely has it in him. But. I don't really think any of these fools were capable of planning their own murder without Charlie's instructions I. Just I agree with you, I think they need the blueprint. Yeah. They definitely do need a quick outline of the nights. Need a how to guide. Yeah, they do. Well, I had mentioned about the conspiracy theorist. Howard Davis was involved. Now, he feels like Bruce's involvement in the Manson, family murders was, what made it possible to cover up the fact that he was? Zodiac. Okay. Okay. I mean. I think we're relying too heavily on that. I, think we are too I. Think it's a bit of a Crock Okay Howard, but Howard thought that it was covered up because it would have jeopardized the Manson murder convictions. I can see where he's coming from, but I also have like an argument or fresher. So Howard could actually be onto something though because the Zodiac murders took place around the San Francisco Bay area where the Manson family did live for some time. Interesting. So there's that there were also other people in that area. Many other people. I. Mean Not technically not like convicted murderers. So like okay, that's like a check one for go off, Howard go and according to Howard. One of the victims of the Manson. Family had a relative. That hired a Pi to find evidence on the Manson family for the Zodiac killer. Well, that's a little more appealing to me. It definitely is if a family member of a victim thinks. So then like what are they going to? Tell me what why I know. I wanted to that. I want to know more and you know he also says that a source in the La District Attorney's office. told him that there was evidence leading Manson to the Zodiac. We'll show me the evidence I know whereas an iron said, it's been a while I. Want It. I mean, it could be legit because if you remember the Manson women did take most of the spotlight. It could have been like a cover up and Bruce could have been quietly able to kill as EAC while the girls were getting all the attention. That's true. I? Mean they did put a lot of focus on them. The only thing is I just don't believe those dirty hill people would come up with ciphers and stuff. Yeah. They're they're too busy trip seems a little more like high level than what they were working out with all that Bella Donna. They were third trip and on, I was trying to remember what that was called. Thank you. Ain't. Number Eight on our list of Zodiac killer theories is a man named. Jack Terrence this theory comes from Terence's Stepson Dennis Kaufman who claims to found suspicious items like a black hood and Terence's belongings way. So like are we talking like a black hood like or like a Black Hoodie? People have black hoodies. I'm assuming it's like the black like executioner's hood. I would think so that the Zodiac I mean, I don't have one of those. No. I don't either just for the record, but I, if I found one I, don't think I would necessarily be like Oh. No, my dad is the Zodiac at Billy Dad. What is this was like dad what Halloween? Did you dress up for? You? WanNa, Talk Dot. Well Dennis Kaufman also claimed 'cause right now. It's like okay. I don't know if I believe. Her Ramsey, well Dennis. Kaufman. Also claimed to have found a knife food tried blood on it. Well, that's a little less flimsy buried. The lead on that one. Definitely, Kaufman claims that the handwriting on Zodiac ciphers also looked very much like his stepfather's I, feel like his stepfather like fucked him over somehow. Yeah. Something happened there. Yeah. It's all these people being like my dad. Did it. My. Dad I'm real Madam on. Dad Today. Zodiac. There's a running theme so far. I barely been mad at my father, but I've never been so mad at him that I'm like, I'm GonNa accuse you being Zodiac killer. I don't know if my dad listens to this. I'M GONNA, go ahead and plead the fifth. I can say that you've never written into a newspaper accusing him of being Zodiac killer that you know of that I know of at least Oh. Maybe, you should be on this list. Totally kidding now, there was no follow from investigators on Terence's suspicious items claim. So I'm thinking it's either there was nothing worth pursuing in the first place or they just didn't find or maybe they just didn't feel like at that day, you know how this police work can be. Yeah. I mean they lapd and like the nineteen thirties was not killing and definitely not. I mean or maybe killing it, I don't know. He not only believes his father could have been the Zodiac killer, but Ding. Ding Ding, he thinks he killed the Black Dahlia as well. Oh. Yeah. What like why? Like my dad did this and this, and also this, it's like let's just bring the hammer down. Right. Just throw everything in the kitchen sink along with it. Coffin also described tarrant as someone who talks about killing often. Often which the same could be said for us now, that makes me nervous. So like I'm not the Zodiac killer in case anybody was wondering read tweet. Let me just state that for the record. Was He like one of those people that was like Oh my God shut up I'm GonNa tell you or was it like I'm going to kill which I say it all the time like I'm GonNa kill you you do so. Now. Nervous. Somebody could bring this fourth later and I back up a little more. Go over here. Thank you. There was ultimately no solid proof which I'm sure is not shocking, but a fair amount of links came about which is why the theory still endures to today and still they're still does. Seven. A number seven. This week is Ross Sullivan. There is a history channel documentary featuring sallow Barbara, a retired LAPD homicide detective. WHO believes the evidence supports Sullivan as possible suspect. Tom Listening. So there's quite a few fingers to point out Ross Sullivan Ooh, we're going to start with the smaller I have ten. So let's do it I. Don't know if we have that there's a few. So Ross. was never far from the bay area. We know that Zodiacs hotspot. Hotspot we do, and it feels like a lot of people are never far from everyone was in the bay area altogether, every the whole world's population just rammed into the bay area through. He always wore army boots, which is strange dot only because there were army blueprints found at the crime scenes, but also because that really wasn't a fashion trend at the time. Yeah. That makes sense. Now, we'd be like, okay. Army boots, people wear combat boots or. Thing like in the nineties, we would have been like who will never find him again. Early everyone everyone in the bay area would their combat oh? Yeah. Well, it wasn't like that at the time. So that is a good finger to point him. Sure. Also, while he was at university, he studied cryptology which would have assisted him in writing those ciphers that Zodiac used to put in like everything ever see that's compelling to me one. It's like how many people do you take that course? Exactly I don't know that's a very big connection to me I mean I could barely like right calligraphy. So. Alright, Ross Yoga, and another thing that there was an occult store right near where he was living at the time in that store had like a ton of similar images in stock to the ones that Zodiac used to illustrate his letters with weird. Right seems like he probably lived around that store least. Yeah. He did. Yeah. I mean, I mean like real Zodiac -Ted Rails Odia. He see in those illustration. Obviously. So that's a good connection wall. Where did this theory come from the first place? You ask, where did it come from? I? Knew you were Gonna ask I asked well raw. Raw. Sullivan was actually a suspect in another murder where the person was killed in a manner like really eerily similar to the way that Zodiac did his killings. That's pretty coincidental. It is I would say all, but it's like, Whoa, weird, another murder I'd say so and not for nothing. Ross Ullivan bears like, oh, spooky resemblance to the Zodiac, and this is our done him. All right Ross. So how many fingers are you holding up at the end? I? Don't know. But I got ten point them at Ross right now. Never have. I, ever the George. Hotel. Not so much. But Ross Aman. Six. Also on our list at number six, Lawrence, Kane, who has put forth as a possible suspect by former police officer, hard behinds according to Hines Cain. had been near many of the areas where the Zodiac crimes happened when the murders occurred. However, authorities dismissed Cain after questioning to hines, his consternation Harvey Hinds pointed decanes, pretty, rocky relationship with women. He wasn't a charming. You would say, okay, and he often became very argumentative with others in moments when he wasn't just being a loner and it seems like the Zodiac probably was exactly the same. It seems like it's exactly because it's like he explodes and when he's doing his murders and he's argumentative. Argumentative aggressive murderous bright, and then it seems like he goes in hides off in a dark corner somewhere as loaner. So because it's like, why did nobody likes suspect him like they are, they're doubt I guess bomb. Their Daddy was always someone's dad you know hines pointed out that he had a brain injury that was wearing away at his ability to self regulate urges while that'll do it to which I say, even if you're not the Zodiac killer, get that fixed, attract act out Yup, just get it regulate had into the doctor plus Cain lived where in the San Francisco area, just a few blocks from one of the Zodiac murders wait. Lived there I I mean I know. We have not heard this before from any of these is compelling, Elena. He lived there I mean, he lived in San, Francisco he's the hot ticket right now, it would be easier to say who didn't live in San Francisco. Because I feel like everybody was on this list. It's like and they lived there and they lived. Hissy CAIN had also been in the military for some time, which of course, is gonNA give him access to combat boots, which were found at the scene or not the boots, but the prince right again, the nineties. So this is a compelling piece of evidence young too weird footwear for the time combat boots were apparently few and far between they were. So I like it so far like he was also in the South Tahoe area. When Donna Lass who is one of the Zodiac suspected victims disappeared Okay. So that's some serious evidence because now we're getting smaller, we're getting closer to the actual Yeah. We're. We're dropping a pin on the map appear for the because now, he's in the actual South Tahoe area. When a victim disappears, we're pulling the registering over. We aren't little step. We're doing it. We're ready for this while the case was dismissed. Oh. Okay. which infuriated hines because he believes that Cain lied and investigators did the interview basically just to shut him up not to actually get the truth while like they really just didn't feel like at that day maybe. Yeah. They had other stuff to do. You know I'm really sad that we have to take that board down, but the red string I'm really sad too. You know I saw George Hotel on this and I was like Whoa like he killed. Black. Dahlia. What are you doing? I know. I was confused at first I was like wait was the psych labeled wrong. This supposed to be my guy. And you know what I was like. All right. I'm ready and I listened and I do not think he's disodium I thought you were GonNa say that you like do you really it's only number ten. No, I don't believe he is also, it's weird that there's more than one connection to Black Dahlia in this whole thing. So far I know that is really weird. Right. Real. I'm interested to see if there's more black Dahlia as we continue on. So am I I mean five down five more to go. Five. Alright. Let's jump back in with number five on our list of Zodiac killer theories, maybe not the most plausible theory. But the links are interesting in nineteen, ninety, six San Francisco police pursued the theory that the uni bomber Ted. Kaczynski was the Zodiac killer. I'm interested your interest men are you ready? so as everything started to unfold and all the details became public about Kaczynski's crimes, a ton of people started calling in to investigators and they're like, whoa. This is similar. This is similar. This is similar to head the Zodiacs crimes. They're like I feel like I know something I. Feel Like I've seen this before no Well, like those mentioned before Kozinski lived in the bay area. Oh my God. Mind boggling lived in the area he did from nineteen, sixty, seven to nineteen, sixty-nine. He did it which, I. Mean. That was the exact time that Zodiac was doing his killing. I. Mean It really was he lived there I'm saying well, both, Zodiac. An Kaczynski jide written to. To The San Francisco, chronicle. To Brag about their crimes? That's true and I mean, that is pretty weird. Yeah. It's like I. Mean it is. It's a newspaper that's like and it was probably a big concern at the time. So so lake at first, it's like, yeah. WHOA. Then it's like what is the newspaper now? Did I think of it? I'm like. Were they writing George Hotel? Who are no? It was the other guy, the other. There well, the other weird thing was that Kaczynski back in his day, signed a high school yearbook with a symbol similar to those that the Zodiac used to use Liu. So I think that's weird because I definitely don't draw those and. I mean their crosshairs. is a little weird designing someone's yearbook. Yeah. But it's like compelling Iraq compelling at the same time. Normally, you just write like hacks have a good summer tags bags, twelve ash. Well. I never thought the Zodiac symbol was like particularly interesting to know. Lame. It seems why pick crosser like that. So on the nose. Bt K. enjoyed water. It's just like. And like he tried to make his own symbol and it just didn't work out for him amongst other things but. I always think like that the symbols are always just. A while back to Ted. endzone back because there are similarities between the two, but you're right the theory doesn't hold up and it's for a couple reasons really. They actually bear no physical resemblance whatsoever. No, because Ted Kaczynski, like went to live in the wilderness for awhile and got like real lean. Oh, he got really like very lean very while he was out there even very mean and the Zodiac like we're not gonNA lie was like Kinda thick. Kind on thicker side and I mean in relation to Ted Kaczynski. Absolutely. Yeah. And the ammos of the two were completely different because we know Zodiac used knives and guns and all that drowns. And Ski obviously used bombs. Very different, she's very big different ammos. While and then to go even further, the San Francisco police compared Kaczynski's fingerprints to a bloody print found out one of the Zodiac. And theory was completely dismissed I was gonna say in what happens nothing. Zodiac, remember it's still unsolved. It is and funny story that connects the bomber to this I a series of articles when I was writing for bustle dot com and it was about the unabomber because there was like a teeny. And I got to interview James. Fitzgerald's who is criminal profiler and linguists that helped get him. You've done like so many cool. Random things in your life is very random unlike one time I watched Zodiac movie. Look me. Four. Next at number four, we have earl van Best Junior. This theory about earl began from a man named Gary Stewart, who wanted to find his biological father that led him to his mother's rapist Earl van best junior gross in the process of his investigation Stewart came to strongly believe that url was the Zodiac killer. There's like a big theme of Dad's here. Yeah. DADS are. Killing it in this list for say, ooh. But. So even a major publishing company spokesperson, Harpercollins? Publishers. Big Deal Big Big Publishing Company. This spokesperson said that the Zodiac Killer and Earl van best junior had quote more than a passing resemblance which if you look it up I, did they really look alike, they're exact twinning like twinning hundred percent. The extreme. Even the knows. I. Mean. They have the same glasses which I always like anybody more glasses I was gonna say knows like everything it's every single part of him looks exactly like that. Scott's the Harold con because it's only number four I'm saying. Well best was a bad guy from the beginning. Obviously because he was a rapist raped Gary Stewart's mother when she was fourteen that's horrific which. So it's like even if he isn't Zodiac, let's just pin it on him. anyways. Because he sucks I am in full. Agree he'll. Like he did it. He's the worst. It was him stuart found the words. Evey best and. And Junior, in one of the cryptograms that the killer sent to the San Francisco Examiner like a little word search, I'm saying in those aren't just words that he disliked pull out of thin air. Yeah. That's weird. They literally matchup someone's name to his exact name. Also a handwriting expert tied best signature on his marriage certificate to letters killer sent to the media. Okay Yeah. Where does this fall apart and the thing is he is the Zodiac killer. Branding on number four debut and could nights you next time Stewart goes with the fingerprints on cans. His father's fingerprints actually match some of those at a crime scene from Zodiac and he says, they both have a diagonal, scar. Oh, that's. Weird I, say, that's like a biggie young. I agree with you like we don't all have diagonal scars that our children can point down. No fingerprint can't say, I, do Stewart alleges that the police wanted to wrap up the investigation early because one of the officers was married to Stewart's mother while that'll do it i. mean to me I'm like this is number one right i. know now I'm like rap. Well, he says, they believed the embarrassment of an officer being with a killers. Former lover would tarnish their departments reputation I would go as far as to say that. Yes, there correct, it's like. Probably, it would be a little scandalous for like. Are we really going to take that over catching? One of the most was going to say chillers on the planet might be a little more scandalous. If you dislike, let the killer go because he is dude, my vote is that's more scandalous. Yeah. Apparently, the vote didn't go so. Stewart wrote about this in the most dangerous animal of all, which gives him unfortunately kind of like Oh del, it gives him a financial incentive to stick to this theory. No matter how any any holes that come about. He's like Nope nope. I wrote a book about best seller in. It's like Shit Stewart had made. It is pretty compelling. Until you had of course in the race, and then I'd just immediately I'm like gotta go. Maybe we're trying to like shoehorn these series and maybe Three. Number three on our list of Zodiac killer theories is Richard Reid Marshall who was born Joe. Don, dickey same thing. Obviously. There's no explanation why he went by two names, but Marshall allegedly made some suspicious. That resulted in him. Becoming a person of interest. You tell me. So he lived in the bay area. No, he did it. You. Did IT Gracie? No, and he worked out of San Francisco, movie theater while the Zodiac murders were happening. And works there I mean creating on everybody? He did seem like a pretty good fit for Zodiac because his appearance matched the description of the killer. Okay. He was like a stocky thick guy who wear glasses. All right. I mean. There's a lot of them out there. There certainly is He was in the navy and because of that, he had been trained in codes. All right. So interesting, there's another one that's a good one he also had. Had A portable typewriter which is what does Odiaun used to type out his letters. This is not something everybody has okay. That's weird. Now, I'm trying to figure out how small a portable typewriter is because those things are heavy. They certainly are like, wow, that's quite something to be carrying around in your briefcase and I'm pretty sure Leopold and Loeb had one of those two I. Think they stole one. Yeah. You're right and he they were like stoked about his portable typewriters. There were like the hot commodity One of the victims of the Zodiac was. Darlene. Ferron and Marshall reportedly lived just blocks away from her at one point. All right. Close he's we're really like jamming that puzzle piece entered seems like it's GonNa fit? I'm feeling real good about this one, but it's a number three and there's an issue. He wasn't known to be controlling or violent, and there was literally not one piece of physical evidence that matched him. So even though he is considered by a lot of people don't get me wrong. A lot of people consider him a prime suspect, but the theory just really isn't substantiated. Yeah. That's a tough one and also profiling wasn't like an its prime then. So it was like your shore, you're kind of stocky and you wear glasses i. think you did it like at this point, I think they're like he killed people, he's probably angry and aggressive. And it was. Oh. Nailed inside of the killer's mind was. Does he do? Yes. Did it. I mean I'm still I'm feeling good about Ross. I'm feeling good about Earl van, Best Junior. I'm feeling real good about best fan junior. Yeah, Earl. Feeling good about earl did it. It's like a dixie chicks song. Yeah. It's like goodbye goodbye goodbye I'm ready to say Byron Goodbye Earl. I'm ready to say by them anyways because he's gross. Yeah. I, agree I'm excited to see what's coming up while I have number one salon. I know. To. A number two is Richard Guyq Hausky. This theory is widely championed by Tom Voight who has run the website. Zodiac killer dot com for over two decades. Most of the evidence here seems to be possible coincidence, but it's interesting stuff. Nonetheless, tell me more that website is really interesting by the way, everybody should check it out. So. GEICO ski had a military career which we know lines him up with boots. Right, and he was a medic which means he was well trained around injuries and body. So he would also know where to inflict though he certainly would. Now I'm also well trained around injuries and dead bodies. I am not the Zodiac killer so I don't know, Elena? Did you live in San Francisco at one? One point. Oh. No, you caught me. You actually done. So it's fine. I. Didn't So fingerprint comparison is impossible. Now since geico skis records from jail were long gone before the investigation really began. So that sucks that does suck because fingerprints are thing that really could crack this open. They're like the thing they're literally the only thing at this point. GEICO, ski also allegedly moved cross country at. At the same time that Zodiac Victim Darlene Farren moved. Oh okay. I mean that's weird and she's making another appearance. She is Darlene. She's everywhere. That is very, they were both moving cross country at the same time. was He following her exactly? Like did he know her D. C. R. Once he also worked in the same building as her husband for a rival newspaper Oo, it's getting hotter in. In here, scandalous, the Zodiac allegedly never mailed letters on Wednesdays, which is interesting. One statement says day off. Now, this is important because that same day is the day that Guy kaos-gl day job was really busy day. Okay, and he didn't have time to write letters getting weird. Yeah. This is getting really weird. Guy Ski would also shorten his last name to four letters in use multiple spellings well. She y. k. e. can be seen in Zodiacs three part cipher mailed July thirty, first nineteen, sixty, nine, I'm like on the edge of my seat for this one now, Nancy Slow Ver, the police dispatcher who spoke with Zodiac, which is crazy to me that. So not master with them being like I did, yeah. Like she spoke to the Zodiac in July nineteen sixty-nine, she identified geico skis voice as being the same voice. Okay. Why is this not number one? I don't know I don't know. freaking out at the end of the day, the evidence was not substantial enough to warrant arrest. But I say is apparently none of this evidence is this is all good of it. Hausky. Did it. One. And that brings us to the number one spot on our list of Zodiac killer theories. A name. You've heard surrounding this case for years Arthur. Leigh. Allen has been the only suspect named by authorities who investigated the Zodiac murders, but he died before a case could be brought against him, and all of the evidence linking Allen to the murders can be called circumstantial. So. That's a real bummer. But circumstantial evidence is like it could get you. You know what? They always go ahead and die before. You can do anything about it. How dare real? Nice. Arthur. Yeah. Come on man. Well after reading a book Zodiac that's the name of their ego you know. The point it is by Robert. Goldsmith many people started to think Arthur Leigh. Allen was a suspect. This is like, what really made them feel that I did too. I forgot about this guy. Did you read them that you said the actual name? I'm like? Well, Shit. You're like, well, that makes sense and argue with the goals Dannatt. So Alad spent time in the military, which made him a good candidate because it would explain the boots again, the boot Lubbock. Say. That, heat, your the army boots were not his only Zodiac esque fashion statement either me. So he owned now, this is Weird Zodiac, watch that was adorned with what we now know as the infamous crosshairs symbol who I remember reading this. So that is weird. Why do you have that watch and if you had that watch the time, why would you not get rid of it? Exactly Weird, and it's like that's pretty. Pretty sloppy to use symbol. It's on your watch yet. You're dumb I'll in, did confess that he had knives covered in blood on the day that there were attacks at lake various, but according to him, those knives were used to kill a chicken. Of course they were, which is a little different. It's like come on guys. He's like I just really wanted chicken nuggets, chickens, kill chickens, we all killed chickens all the chickens. She says, well, one of his former friends, Don Cheney told the police that Allen admitted to him. He wanted to kill couples at random and not only did he want to do that? He wanted to use the name Zodiac while he did it. So he admitted to wanting to be Zodiac before Zodiac, existed more like I. Wonder if he did, it means scratch your head a little bit a that one that also reminds k. because he like named himself. I've do this and he named Soda How cool is that name? Yeah, stupid. While he was in fact arrested and it was the only official arrested in the case. So that's kind of a big deal. It is. There were search warrant served, but no concrete evidence ever came up of course and Sadat's annoying, and then in two thousand and two, they did a DNA test and found that couldn't have been Zodiac. Killer hate that. But a lot of people are like will y how is that test conducted? People have a lot of questions. I got a lab report. I'm still an Arthur purist I totally forgot about him. Yeah. I. Definitely think he's a good in when I read that I was definitely like, yes, I read that book and Yes cousy was a pretty good one too though like neck and neck know about Guyq Hausky neither did I I considered myself to be an Arthur Leigh. Allen champion of he's the Zodiac. But now like you're converting your Zodiac faith I, have kind of thing so to like. Like I'm totally on Guyq Hausky for doing it, and it's like the watch. Yeah. The Zodiac Watch with the crosshairs symbol. It's like, why did you have that too much and then I want to be the guy just because I hate him and I want to be like you did it. Yeah. The word then is like somebody wrote that book. So it's like, yeah, that's the thing and has the convenient narrative about it. Right? I'm with Arthur or. I agree I really do think that. Yeah. ME. You know what the podcast research goes killed it. They always do you have yet to prove them wrong? I'M GONNA. Lay Seven, hundred. I, can't believe I forgot Arthur Leigh Allen. I can't believe that while massage and you get together I I'm going to try well, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with another great episode, you can find all episodes of crime countdown and all other parkas originals for free on spotify spotify has all your favorite music and podcasts all in one place. They're making it easier to listen to whatever you WanNa hear for free on your phone computer. Computer or Smart Speaker and if you like this show follow at Park cast on facebook and Instagram in at podcast network on twitter, you can also follow us if you wanted to it, you can follow us at Morbid podcast on instagram in at a morbid podcast on twitter. Thanks. Thanks. Crime countdown was created by Max Cutler in as a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler, sound design by Kevin. McAlpine produced by John Cohen, Jonathan ratliff and Kristen. Crime countdown stars, Ash, Kelly and Elena Urquhart.

murder San Francisco Elena Urquhart DADS Manson LAPD Jon Benet Ramsey Ross. Howard Davis officer Bruce Davis Ted Kaczynski Ross Sullivan Arthur Leigh Allen Steve spotify Dell Gary Stewart Terence
Yankees Add Bruce, Wilson and Chirinos & Andrew Had A Kid!

The Bronx Pinstripes Show - Yankees MLB Podcast

54:45 min | 2 months ago

Yankees Add Bruce, Wilson and Chirinos & Andrew Had A Kid!

"Did you know that with naps. Added in lebron. James gets an average of twelve hours of sleep a day. I'm vanfleet an emmy award winning tv host. And i'm obsessed with these kinds of stories of how people are wired to achieve greatness my show insight with chris van vliet. We'll take you into the minds of these top performers with in-depth conversations. Join me as we were verse. Engineer their habits and techniques so you can apply them to your own life inside is available right now on all podcast platforms. We are breaking down all aspects of yankee. Baseball this is the bronx pinstriped. Show with your host angel. Rotundi and scott ryan. Let's go what's up guys. Welcome to the bronx pinstripe. Show episode five hundred and fourteen today. We have pitchers and catchers baby grown ass men throwing baseballs back in forth together in their younis in shorts probably in shorts but first and foremost we new kid in the world andrew. We had a baby didn't we. Yeah we just get another co host after a host. Now i was joking with is like how soon can i hand the podcast. Because this at this point but Yeah after i saw what leeann went through during in the hospital to say we had a baby seems kinda had a baby we end. I was there. I did my part. I tried to be supportive. But i guess some stories there. But yeah if you're if you guys are wondering why scott's dealing in show and i'm just sitting here as co-pilot because my brain is not working fully right now and My my son harrison was born last thursday evening so it's almost a week ago and the these last six days i don't know i i don't know what up is down down is up. You know bizarro world shit is going on because i am on a two and a half to three hour. Life cycle basically the cycle of harrison. Who eats sleeps in shifts every three hours. So you gotta you gotta kind of do that. But it's been it's been amazing and few people have reached out saying congratulations. I i definitely appreciate that. But yeah i guess the yankees have done stuff. I didn't really wasn't able to follow. It's kind of weird when it's been the busiest week of your life but only focused on one thing is. It's a very. It's kind of a bizarre. Yeah everything else gets. Shut out you have blinders on because you're in three our cycles like you were saying you have to have to you have to basically attend All of your attention to two one thing you got him first of all. Make sure that like this is new. You can make sure that the kid is fed. The kid is cleaned. The kid is not crying all the time. So there's a lot of lot of lot of responsibilities now. How how is the ride home. The ride home was fighting slept. He's been in the car twice and he's just immediately passed out. I was driving like fifteen miles an hour because i was scared shitless but otherwise He was calm lands in the backseat with them. But yeah there's just so much information and If anyone has had a baby or recently. I guess since cova like the nurseries in the hospitals are closed unless it's like a situation where the mother is in in serious condition and cannot care for him or or the baby is in serious condition and needs to go to the nursery so he was with us every night in the hospital which which is great but he was born at like five o'clock on thursday and we get to our hospital room at like nine thirty ten o'clock and they're just like here you go. Here's a baby. No you have any in twenty four hours. I you haven't slept at twenty four hours have fun and we're just lands bedridden because she had to have a cease. I don't want to call it emergency c. section but it felt like an emergency to me because as she's pushing. The doctors decide rightfully so because of slight complications we need to have a c. section and i'm not joking from that moment five minutes later she is in the. Or being cut over so like so in five minutes. They like unplug her from everything in the delivery room. Start wheeling her off and they're like one of the nurses turns to me and she's like you got a pack up all your stuff and bring it over to coding doing while you following us go get the stuff like what are you kidding. Me like our bags searches thrown about. Because we've been in this room for the last eight hours so i'm just like growing. I'm literally stomping on the suitcase to fit it in there and then like i'm like dragging stuff down the hallway to this room that we're going to be in just for temporary after the baby's born and then they push me into the into the The or and she's already being cut open so of course you're saying so so eloquently then that it's yeah no it's that's a crazy crazy experience especially when you don't when you're not expecting it going in and then all of a sudden it's like oh reverse course changes change plans. Let's do this. Yeah so so that had pursuit expectations on this podcast and when your expectations or something different in that moment it's a bit jarred. That's a chart. But so she's on on pain medications and bedridden for the for the twelve hours post delivery so just like try to change his diaper and try to figure out all the stuff like trying to hand him over so he can eat something so that i. It's just scary because you're now responsible for this human life and of course. The nurses are there to help. But he's not in the nursery. There's there for if it goes wrong when when keeping it real goes wrong when the nurses when the nurses papa that's when you hit the red button and so i told you in texas like i have a piece story And so apparently newborns. Don't pay a lot when they're first born in the first twenty four hours. They're looking for like one one good p. They said and the recovery room nurse told us oh. He peed a little so like within the first hour after he was born. Apparently he paid a little. But we had no proof that 'cause she didn't like documented anywhere so the nurses like the next twenty four hours like he needs to. He needs to look out for p. lookout for and we're like okay. Well we were told. He peed already so at the not. I'm not joking. Not twenty four hour mark. Changing his diaper he had pooped. Thank you all of a sudden then. All of a sudden leeann leeann looks over at his face. She's like is that are those tears on his face. And i'm like tears talking about. He's not crying. And then i put my face over. And i'm just i'm just drilled with piss in the cheek and then it starts going like a waterfall. She's she's like trying to cover it with with her and it's just spraying everywhere so we were initiated into the diaper changing club with just an absolute piss shower. Nice i love. I was hoping i was hoping for the other. End the other initiation. But i'm still confident that will come. You still have. There's still plenty of time for that to come to. So do you have a thing called the pptp. I i sure don't apparently that's something that parents of the need to invest in if if they're if they find themselves getting peed on award. Is that like one of those shark. Tank dad dad. Inventions i did. Pptp don't pissed in the face probably. Yeah we'll see we'll see about that but that's three hour sleep cycles right there to get the so. I do appreciate everyone who has reached out I'll i'll tweet out picture of them. maybe later today but Yeah otherwise it's other. Everything's been good Liens doing well You know all things considered the meds or helping and harrison is is healthy. And that's the most important thing so it's been great awesome animal. You know i know it's We've all been waiting to hear the updates so it's great to hear it's funny because the everybody who's been listening to this show for a long time and there's a lot there's a lot of a lot of people who've been listening for years and years and years. They've pretty much gone through. You know major life events with us obviously Kemp was kemp was born His all all of his Stuff they've everybody's been along for the journey. I was already married by the time we started this. But you got married. Now you having a kid so it's It's just kinda funny everybody's come along this entire ride with us Through life through the lens of the new york yankees. i guess. It's pretty pretty cool so glad to see everybody's doing well Harrison's adorable some pictures later but get some baseball man. Let's this is. Is the healthy distraction that we that we rely on now. And and now that your dad to You're going to be looking forward to this for for like a different moment. Like what is that other moment. Oh it's baseball okay. And today pitchers and catchers baby so. A lot of things happened this past week while you were in the hospital while you were in your days. A lot of minor league signings minor. You know not. Huge huge deals obviously for the yankees but felt a lot a whole lot of things that we have. Some good impact could have some major impact. We said last couple episodes like is this. Is this the roster that they're going to go in with and we mentioned sort of that list of unsigned players in quality. Names on there. That could help. The you think about you. Think about championship teams and they have these. These quality maybe veteran players that do something over the course of the season over the course of the playoffs that make a positive impact like you can find it on every championship roster. I go back to that two thousand seventeen team. Where were you look at the construction and the makeup of that team and yes. We thought it was early at that point. But they've really had that they had even more so than than now but they had a very healthy mix of veterans who either hadn't won or some that had and we're hungry and then also you're you're young guys and that blend when you find that right blend it becomes. It's just a very positive thing to have in the clubhouse and for leadership reasons you know in the in the dugout and as you get into the postseason so jay. Bruce davis is a guy that we mentioned was one of the outfielders is still available Looking at the signing was a minor league signing one point three million guaranteed. He's got bonuses. Starting i think after four hundred plate appearances fifty thousand dollar bonuses just tears up from four hundred four four fifty and five hundred. I don't expect him to get the four fifty five hundred probably not even four hundred but what happens if judge goes down if there's an injury then then yes that's a that's a guy that we're going there if we're talking about the perfect world situation and i mean i don't even know if he's getting the fourth outfield spot. He's probably fifth outfield. At this point maybe depends on who knows how he plays. He may not even make the major league. Roster there's a lot of things still open year which bruce He's got a show it. He didn't have a great year last year. But when you look at it not great since two thousand big good for for a while but when you look at his skin splits are to me. The the reason why I'm looking at him and not looking at his history as A major league players thirty-three-year-old feels a hell of a lot older than thirty. Three definitely thought he was older than thirty three. It seems like jay. Bruce has been around for a long time. Oh eight was his first year so but six thirty nine forty one against handed pitching in two thousand twenty. That's really the big thing i'm looking at. I'm looking at. What have you done against right. Handed pitching what have you done. have you done damage. Are you able to be slaughtered in on on days. Where we're going up against tough right into pitching and you know a tough out from the left side. That is a necessity as a team. Need in the lineup. Some balance against the tough ryan patrick. So if you can be that guy you know they can do that with minimal at bats. Then i see very good value here. What we'll see though he's got to be able to do it without playing time. All the time consistent playing time and that's just not something. He's he's really done at this point That might just be all. He's gets on any team so he he just has. It's like the these sorts of points. For for guys. Like jay bruce their careers can go one or two ways you can. You can try this role and you fail. And then your career is over or you find you find yourself thriving in this role and then you hang on for like another eight years and bounce around from team to team. Because in two hundred and fifty plate appearances you can give solid numbers. And you can be a nice guy in the clubhouse. Yeah and that's your right. There is a. there's a point in a i'd say especially the power hitters in power hitters career where they find that opportunity to you know to be glorified d. h But not even a fulltime d. h. Time just there's an opportunity for them to step in When needed and and play their role. And that's what the yankees need which abors right now. So i am hoping he can do that. We've seen guys attempt to do this. Part time gig even young guys. It's just not the same. It's not it's not what they're used to. It's not getting the same reps so it's definitely an adjustment. But if he could do it there's good value here the so we're talking about. Offseason is cashman finding these value plays. They're so much up in the air with that but if they can hit at least even fifty six percent of them hit. There's there's some good value there we talked about like the outfielders that were still available. Obviously brett gardner still available but there were some others on that on that list as well. In addition in addition to bruce. Like you mentioned nick marquess. I mentioned since you chew. There's also some other fielders that that could have fit similar roles. Are you happy with the bruce signing over some of those other guys. I mean to me. You're looking at him. Like you know what you toss a coin up in the air and you see. I thought marquette's could have been a good fit. I don't know what he's asking for. Contract wise bruce fit the what they were looking to do with the saying. I had the salary cap but the luxury tax cap if you will. And he fit. The team left need left hand bat soap. He fit the void. You know i'd be nitpicking. If i if i was saying one would be better than the other based on the value. But i think it's a it's a it's a good game. He strikes out still at i. Think of over twenty percent. I think it was twenty three percent over the last full season. Twenty five almost twenty five percent clip Guy but against a hand pitching if that's down and he's able to make contact and he's able to put up good production numbers against right handed pitching i will be. I'll be happy camper that really. That's the ideal thing. I was looking for our from anybody. But what we're talking about him before we get into the other guys. I'm going to go into a mailbag from andrew campbell. Because i think it directly affects The other left handed bat is stole a potentially still looming out there. And he's obviously. A yankee has been a yankees entire career brett gardner so many Read mailbag here Hey guys big longtime if the yankees can't find a way to bring back. Brett gardner for price fits both sides. Should the yankees consider maki pitch to gardy. That would bring him back to the bronx member of the coaching staff. Or even a perhaps a role A role as a player coach career bats profile as a member assistant coach or a special advisor to the team gardner saying the dugout while keeping him The salary part of the team below always living luxury tax threshold. The heart and soul of the team provides will be prominent the clubhouse for the two thousand one season. I'm not gonna read the entire thing here. Look this is this is. This is one of those plays where people are holding on for hope holding on to hope and andrew is a record guy. I appreciate that. I don't see the yankees at all. We're not talking about a player coach for the yankees. I'm usually joking because it doesn't exist. It doesn't hasn't exists anymore like legitimately. Who's the last player coach in major league baseball. Oh pete rose. We know how that worked out. Nobody's saying i. I don't think that that role is just like something out of a different era. Yeah no it's. It's not something that fits it's just not it doesn't it doesn't work for this. Brechner is not the guy like one. He thinks he can play. And look i. Don't you think that this completely closes the book on brett gardner i. I'm not going to say that it does yet. Because i still think the fact that he's not another team and he wants to play. There's something looming and i don't know you know what that is Gibberish beside minor league deal. Yes there's there's there's like he. He wants to be in the major league roster. There's no doubt but because of that because that's not a definite. I still think. Brett gardner is looming yet. So i was just going to clarify that with you. So the the jay. Bruce signing is not is not definite as far as like impact. Because i just looked up the spot track and I'm putting them in here now. So that the yankees still have about eleven million in tax space available because jay bruce so if he makes the roster million million five you said a million three million three five plus plus some incentives But the site again this is. This is if he makes the major league roster. So so here's the thing. Though they didn't do this with jay bruce for no reason they did it because they think he he might be able to contribute to the roster if they do signed brett gardner and it's a guaranteed major league spot. That kind of takes jay bruce out. So why are you going to do this with jay. Bruce if you're then going to give garner guaranteed roster spot. Maybe you're going signed. Brett gardner invite him to spring training and say compete but are they really going to even go through that whole rigmarole with gardner you do that with jay bruce fine because he's he's never been on the team before but you bring a guy who's a career yankee into compete for a job. That just seems kinda weird and that. That seems more like a distraction than anything to me. No i agree with you. And and that's that's where we'll also can play first base. That's a that's a potential there. You're looking at Mike ford as a backup. First baseman lefty bat. So you could see jay bruce finding spot on that roster even if there's even if record no word to To be signed still and and again it's a very very low risk. Play if i if bruce doesn't play well in the spring if they don't like what they see they don't have to do anything they can. They can release them from this minor league deal and a guy like mike ford could step right in as a backup. Backup for space. So if you're looking at it in that way and and you see him as a potential slide from outfield spots diverse base d. h. And there's really not much because even if brett gardner there you can still find a home for him I see that as a as a potential play. I think the other thing of this is not just garnered. But they're looking at this. Jay bruce Versus mike ford. I mean that's to me after what might four did last year when he didn't back up the the season that we were you know at the end of the year in two thousand eighteen when he didn't live up to your bold prediction to move the first for the comeback from home run king of the season. When that's comeback back made me look bad then. I think there are a lot of us. Were expecting him to to pick up. Maybe it wasn't to the to the bull bricks i happen. We weren't expecting him to fall off the planet like he did last year he was back you thrown at thrown out though like you're throwing out venus so it if he if he chose well in spring i think that's what they want to see. They wanna see if. Mike ford can step up and be that left handed bat. He's a younger guy. You'd say that Thirty-three-year-old jay bruce or looking at mike ford. I'd say it's a it's a toss up so maybe really. That's fishing is the fact that bruce can play the outfield and play first. Base is a huge step over. Mike ford because that versatility especially for this yankees roster is massive. Sure with the injuries with the injury history there but the thing is he's not going to be the four th outfielder talk still out there. He's going to be the. He's the guy that slots in and if gardner is signed then. It doesn't really matter as much. So then it become gardeners signed. It becomes jay bruce versus mike ford in my opinion but in a situation. Like you mentioned where you're going up against one of the best right handed pitchers in the game and you just want to have a little bit more lefty Bat in the lineup. You could in theory even have gardeners not on the team you could. You could say okay. We're going to put Bruce in the light up. We're going to have my talk men in the lineup. And we're not gonna take luke voight lineup who you wouldn't want take out of the lineup. If he's producing like he did last year anyway right. So that's where the you have the competition of brett gardner. Mike ford jay bruce. Let's see what happens here. You got a bunch of left-handed bats. Bruce has the most flexibility garner has the most tenure and ford is relative. Wildcard if he can regain the form that we saw in spurts in two thousand eighteen. So two thousand nine hundred. And so i think it's a. It's good competition book. I see the day. When i'm looking at the roster and i look back at all of cashman's moves and we can get into the other minor league moves in a second here but i see a lot of competition across the roster and this is a roster that we going into the season we looked at it and it's pretty locked up right like it's there's a lot of spots that are set but in the rotation there were not in the bullpen. After you know getting rid of outta vino and keenly being released after his injury there's competition there too. There's a lot of competition in a good amount of spots on this team and when you're bringing in some of these guys that they're not definite it's they're not locked spot but they have to compete with other guys other young guys to me. That's a very very healthy good thing for the roster and i'm excited to watch spring training because there's gonna be battles there's definitely going to be battles in different positions especially in the pitching staff so to me that's exciting. And now you add. Jay bruce to the mix with potential gardner or another outfielder. You know from from some of the invites that they've had there's competition there. There's no doubt one last thing on gardener. I think he's done. And that's why. I just don't see them bringing him back look at his stackhouse rankings. From last year literally the only thing that he excelled in was walked percentage which is still good but exit velocity hard. Hit percentage expected weighted on base average barrel percentage slugging percentage all near the bottom of the league k. percentage middle of the road. He could still run. He still near the top eighty third percentile and sprint speed which is great but his actual defense worsened. His above average outfielder jump got worse. And they're actually near the bottom of the league. We need we needed to sela rations. Is that what i feel. Jump as i guess. But that's that's also reactions sprint sprint's sprint speed. I need an acceleration speed. I need the know how you're getting out of the gate. The has that was. That's always been brett gardner's downfield outfield. Jump no because there's a reaction you're reacting to something. I'm talking more fast cars fast guy. He can't still abate would never still which is which comes down to your first step. Most of the slow i you. Did you ever see that you know tom. Tom ski video of course. Do you remember the one with ricky henderson. Don't specifically remember the videos. But i just i remember the the set of talking about stealing bases and he talked about how so many guys make the mistake. Their first step is with their right foot and all that does is you take like a four inch step and you plant again. You're wasting you're wasting time. You're wasting step. His first step was with his left and he crossed over so he got like four feet or whatever it was instead of four inches in his first step. And i feel like it could be as simple as that with brett gardner where his first step is. Just a dog shit step. He's not getting bang bang. But he's always out. Ricky henderson also started used to teach. I used to teach kids when i was coaching. Pony ball and literally would show them. It wasn't the amid ski videos. But i would show them ricky henderson videos of stealing base because there are a lot of different things he would start so low and stay low all the way through. I mean he never really got into an upright position whereas i think a lot of guys do that but he was accelerating. It seemed like for fifty to sixty percent of the time he was such powerful long wide strides. He was almost climbing as he was running it. He's impressive just to watch his form. he's definitely a guy that they should be yet. But you're right. The first step was was massive. So my point on. Brett gardner is that i'm afraid he's done in at this point. The yankees need to win a championship. And they don't have any room for done player. Just because he's been a yankee for twelve years. Okay i mean. That's i don't think i don't think It seems like they're not saying that as heavily if they're waiting this long to sign a guide because if that was if that was top of mind all his tenure is a yankee. He's been yankee forever. he would have been. You've been signed already right. Like he's obviously been chosen over tapers. Probably so do you think he's getting interest from other teams because he got another contract offer from a major league team even if it was a million bucks just as a guaranteed roster spot. Don't you think that he would go to cashman his agents. Say hey you know. The the whoever the seattle mariners are the san diego padres are offering a one million dollar guaranteed spot. Can you meet that. Because gardner wants to stay. Cashman would give them a yes or no but that's the thing they're not giving us contracts out. I mean look look look at jay. Bruce signed a minor league deal for one point three with incentives. You have to make the team. They're not getting that you know. What am i big points looking at those and he's younger to taper says younger looking at looking at those middle mid thirty guys outfield. There's those veteran guys were floating around. They're just not valued anymore at all. Every single team would prefer to go and and have a young guy that's controlled cheap all and and younger with a of side way. More than than jay. Bruce or record. I don't brick. He doesn't bring a lot of value to any team. Unless you're a competitor and even then at this point are you still looking for a guy like brett gardner. If you're if you're a team that's competing. I could see the red sox signing brett gardner because they just traded benintendi so they have. I know they have for do go. They have a couple of the people in their outfield. But i could see them doing that. Just like an f you to the yankees. Yeah well maybe we'll see if it depends on much brecqhou. No must keep playing baseball. And if if what about the raise the other hold on the other option for him is that he stays in shape he he's he's the guy first one to chopping wood. He's chopping chopping wood. He's gonna be on the farm shopping would but if he doesn't get an opportunity that he's excited about. I wouldn't be surprised if he was on the roster at some point during the season. So i said this like a month ago i could see i could see him fitting on the race roster maybe i mean they plug in everything so who knows. They're adding veteran. It seems like they're adding more veteran players every day. to fill in gaps in into throw shit at the wall. Also maybe couple guys. That they signed also robinson's torino's former astros former battery mate with gear cold not his personal catcher. When i first heard the news is like we did with that was that as personal catcher. No it was not. I was excited to watch these. Marge salt and auto. I was very excited. Watch you lose your shit but it was not not the same guy. This was torino's who things just don't affect me anymore. Scott i got. I got a kid i got. I got bigger fish to fry right. It's a it's a it's a little click that just goes off immediately So robert torino's really is a depth piece here to me not much to see. It's just a a veteran guide. Debt that you may or may not be there. He could be. What is this five other veteran guys. That i do have. I do have a thought on this though because because torino's was a starting quote unquote catcher on a world series caliber astros. He was the he was the main catch on the astros. Do you know what is this move for is because they don't believe in figgy as much as we were led to believe this because is this because they have an extra roster spot or two extra roster spots rate for the new rules and they they have the luxury of carrying a third catcher if they need it and this gives extra insurance for maybe if gary sanchez just sucks again and they just. They need more catching that they have this luxury now. I think it speaks. Way more to gary sanchez than it does hagi. I don't think it says anything about hagi. I think it says everything about gary sanchez. Ed they need some kind of an insurance to note to be ready if he does come out of the gate slow and it's not something they're willing to put up with or or you know deal with for an extended period of time. I think it's an insurance policy. I think it's definitely it's signing aircraft. It's a the yankees are. They need depth on our catching In their catching position especially a guy that now has a relationship that has experience with colt. That's not a bad thing. So i think that's it was really just depth mover here. The other move is justin. Wilson is back in the bronx after a couple of this. Move a couple years with The mets pitch. Well two point nine one a twenty six percent strikeout rate With the mets terms are undisclosed. So far i haven't seen the money of. But i imagine this is a guarantee a guarantee very close to what bruce if he makes the squad. I definitely see just making the major league roster and i'm sure there's some bonus incentives along with that as well but already some some intriguing stat stat. Cast doubt on him. Exit velocity ninety sixth percentile hard. Hit percentage ninety second percentile expected weighted on base average seventy fifth percentile. Expected the ira seventy fifth percentile. Batting seventy percentile expected slugging eighty first percentile. Those are all good numbers. All top of like top twenty five percent or better of the league and for relief pitcher. Who's going to be relied on to pitch. Maybe the six seventh-inning come in to get a couple tough left. He's out in the eighth inning. I love it. This is this is exactly the signing that they needed. They needed to make to give more insurance to this pitching staff. So let's let's recap what happened so far in the bullpen with With the the deal that cashman gets a lot of flack for what he does with the pitching staff. I probably not as much in the rotation bullpen has always been history. So looking at justin wilson. A guy that's been on the team before you know. Louis sessa was Was was part of the deal. Shane shane green yet. Went to the tigers and justin wilson in. Yeah i think it was. I think it was lewis. Who came back. the when. You're looking at at justin wilson. Coming in left handed reliever you look at darren. Day right handed side side swine. Learned a guy. Nobody wants to face doesn't matter what side of the The boxer inside of the plate. You're in trading vino and his entire contract to the red sox and you're replacing him essentially with these two guys for a fraction of the price again. We don't know what the justin wilson deal is yet. I have not seen it. But i can't imagine it's anywhere over two million dollars probably under two million. That's that's i mean. Just just just swap justin wilson for atom of and to me. It's an upgrade. Your adding d'arno day now a as another piece that that gives you just a different option. A different look out the pen. I like what they've done. Plus you adding the young guys With you know a good amount of upside. I like it. I make i mix these trades up. So the yankees acquired wilson wilson from the pirates in two thousand fourteen for francisco survey. Yes then in two thousand after the two thousand fifteen season. They traded wilson to the tigers for lewis. Sessa green right. That's a. Shane greene was different. Trade entirely with the tigers was shingling. Potentially in that curtis granderson. I feel like he might have been in the curtis granderson trade. But anyway you got chad. Green and louis sesa for wilson like tigers pride kicking themselves about that so speaking of winning trades. That's a. That's that's brian cashman. Bullpen trade. all day but not so much in the rotation that's where the that's where the criticism has always come in paxton. Now it's official. The cycle has closed eight point. Five million dollar deal with the mariners. He's back in seattle. He's got bonuses including this deal. That could make it worth over ten million bucks so the seattle mariners are now walking into a season with both james paxton and justice sheffield in their starting rotation and the yankees are are left holding and they're holding. Their shange is in their hand. So can we just be done with dealing with the mariners that doesn't seem to want to trade for any more pitching from the mariners. They try to michael pineda. That actually was the best one that worked out but it didn't really work out. They tried to require quick cliff. Lee back in the day. It didn't work out the mariners this this whole thing with sheffield and like i'm done. Acquiring pitching from the mariners go do something else. Just go to a different. Well pleased because i'm sick of drinking this shitty water from seattle seattle people hate you too so the the thing is is yes cashman's looking at this deal now and it didn't work again injuries on both of those traits completely crushed. I'd say the both guys. I mean you look at you. Look at what happened with With pineda and to me was the the mind boggling upside that just never was never was was was really dead never matured and never came out. It's probably come out more infrequent minnesota then over the tenure of what we saw. We saw a couple of spurt. Well didn't he get busted for pd's in minnesota who knows everybody's been busted for pd but you see a guy that is has all the potential in the world just couldn't put it together. The yankees never never really got what they needed to out of him. He was infuriating to watch. Because of the the the spike in talent james paxton completely you know marred by by injuries had the had the big start in the playoffs where you know three feet. Three feet and that ball is out of the stadium. We look at him. Very differently. but it just didn't work. We knew that he was coming over with with injuries and injury state and Completely affected what he was as a player. Yankee said i'm not dealing with that anymore. And now he goes back to the mariners so both trades no good potential there. I still hold on real quick before. When i'm looking back at this discussion deals. I'm seeing it. They didn't they didn't work but at the same time. I'm looking at them in the moment when he made the trades. And i'm like yep i would probably make that trade again like jameson i on. We loved it at kill now. It's an easy because you look and you know what happened. But when we were back looking at it looking at the upside for paxton potential with what justice sheffield had been hadn't really been the guy that that potentially thought we. You can't say that he had no time in the mets fine. But i still i. I don't think he was identified as a guy that they didn't see long-term so i was fine with. He was the number one prospect. But that's kind of there's a little strict decks to that because everybody else was trash so it's not that big of a deal so i'm still looking back at the time and being probably make that move pineda. I have done that again in a heartbeat as well. If i didn't know what happened well well. His montero flopped. Okay but just a sheffield. He pitched a little bit for them. In two thousand nineteen the mariners and struggled in the majors but two thousand twenty and fifty five innings had a three point. Five eight yards and a three point. One seven philip. Okay that's clearly a step forward and major in the major leagues for justice sheffield. What if he comes out. And twenty twenty one and was one hundred seventy five innings till mid three era in amid three v. It's very positive that is a huge black mark on cashman's resume because that is a clear misidentification of a young left handed starting pitcher very true. There's no doubt. I think what what justice sheffield does for. The rest of his career is going to really be a determining factor of how we look at cashman because that is a top-flight guy that was in their system that they traded for an injury prone james paxton and what they were trying to do in my opinion that that point was captured lightning in a bottle for what they had on the roster. There were going forward. They knew that sheffield wasn't the guy right. Then and chat passing could be a different a difference maker and they roll the roll the dice and it didn't work so when you acquire guy with injury history and then he gets injured for you. I don't say that's bad luck. I just say that's well. You knew the risks and then you took them and they didn't But guess what it's not. It's not surprising. I think we were trying to look at the at the injuries as well and you can look at those injuries and in seattle and say some of them were you know fluky. Some of them were a bit fluky but but there were. There was also writing on the wall for the type of injuries. Even when he was rehabbing he would get injured because his body couldn't handle the mechanics mechanical changes or there was more strain on another part of his body and then that part of the body failed so the writing was definitely on the wall with him. So we'll see we'll see how it comes. Your company salary cap is probably tighter this year. 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Get your seventy five dollars credit at indeed dot com slash blue wire. This offer is valid to march thirty first terms and conditions. Apply guys. we're going to get into a few mailbags before we get out if you're obviously spring training is Is is here. Pitchers and catchers. Were here you guys are are writing in so if you have not sent an mailbag in a while. Let's get back in the game. Let's let's let's all wake up. We got we got baseball in two new season. I think the We're we're optimistic right with. Things are going and seems like a geyser reporting on time. Let's let's hope the the major league baseball has a good handle on all the covid stuff And we're able to get through this but sucks era. It's always in the news. I couldn't believe it when the When the seat when the new year was transitioning and alex rodriguez and jennifer lopez. Were in front of my face bringing me into the new year in front of an empty times square with sinatra speech blasting in the background and era being the guy. That's that's getting me in here. Schoenfelder writes in talking about the hall of fame and a-rod obviously jeter is They they just made the announcement. That jitters ceremony is going to be virtual. It's going to be something that we were going to be able to watch it from tv. That's unfortunate. i was surprised by that. I was expecting there to be some kind of a I don't know figure out how to get a certain amount of people in there. But that's not the case so Jeeter will have his ceremony. Thank thank goodness no curt schilling will be staining it But speaking of stains and everybody knows my opinions on a rod and what he is. Uh he's doing start using steer stain. That's that's such an offended. It sounds era of thing to say to substitute felder. Asked what about iran for the hall of fame i think he should be inducted based on stats. Six ninety. Six home runs over two thousand. Rbi's for one of the top players. In his time you helped the yankees win their last championship. Two thousand nine look. You're not wrong with the stats. You look at the stats. And you see what a rod has done as a baseball player. And you're of course that's a hall of famer. You look at barry bonds. That's a hall of famer. You look at roger clements. That's a hall of famer. But there is the massive stain of steroids the backdrop of steroid that will not get these guys in. We're seeing i think this this year. We talked about this last time. This this voting was pretty telling on what's going to happen to me with other steroid guys with with them. Not really inching closer for bonds or or clements. So much of the hall of fame is based on. Are you a nice guy whether that's right or wrong. It's also what you do in the five years after your career. A hall of fame at eligible which era it will be in two thousand twenty six to depends on if the writers like you and will vote for you. Guess what the has been in full force since two thousand and fifteen a his likable barry bonds. Not likeable roger. Clemens not likeable curt schilling not likeable. A-rod likable is so yes basically writers. He's likable because that's that's who you're talking to. You're not talking about the general public. You're talking about baseball writers. I think he's much more likable to baseball writers than he is than clements and he does because my wife watches this awful show style. One of these reality shows. That's i think it's based out of charleston and there's just there's just a train wreck of drunk people just like let's follow around a bunch of people that just get hammer all the time and you're watching. How their lives are getting. You know destroyed because they're just a train wreck sometimes it's entertaining when you see train wrecks because you look at yourself you're like okay. Things are going so bad. My life's pretty decent when you look at shit like that but she watches it all the time and i'm sitting there on my computer doom doing whatever while she's watching it on tv and they have the she watches it on demand. And there's like commercials lupine lupin loop all the time and one of them is a shark tank commercial and i it. It drives me nuts because they show a-rod and he says he says something about you. What does it feel like to identify to ruin one of the best opportunities of your life and i'm sitting there like. How are you possibly saying this hour the one to be able to say that you possibly say this other. Look in the mirror bro. But don't kiss yourself in the mirror which you have done. Not only that. But the girl on the show who has a rumor tied to era that they've done snuggle looming. I don't know all the details here but there is a. There's a rumor out there that this girl and arab and texting and possibly hooked up in miami and jaylo. There's a whole. There's a whole thing happening there too. So you'd have to do. Not expect era big laura on planet earth used to be the biggest more on planet earth to cheat on jaylo. Yeah no but but my point is that i think a-rod is much more likable at this stage than bonds clements an obviously his stats are there and i think that might be enough by twenty twenty six when twenty twenty six rolls around. That's still a long time away injury. He still has been steroid. I mean i don't give a i. Don't give a shit. How likable you are. He still has the backdrop of steroids and was pop multiple times and then lied that. There's going to be more writers in two thousand twenty six that care less about the steroids then they than currently but if these other guys are not getting in. How can you possibly justify era if barry bonds is does not get in. How can you possibly justified a ride. You can't i. I see your point. But i think because there will be enough writers by twenty twenty six voting. Who don't care about steroids. They're not even gonna say they're going to look at bonds and clemens say that's a mistake they should be and i'm not gonna make the same mistake with with l sharia's i don't see i don't know i think i think if if we're not looking at at clemens and bonded i i find it very difficult for anybody to even justify the fact that these guys can can get in And it would have to get to the committee at some point down the road and letting them but who knows So sean sean point. About era like yes justified because of the stats but then you have steroids. And all the other nonsense. I was looking up some stats for era. And one thing that. I noticed that he played ninety two percent of his team's games from nineteen ninety-six to two thousand and ten and he played one hundred sixty two games which is a full season three separate times. Oh one oh two and five. He obviously won the mvp for the yankees in that o. Five season era like many players of that era and unlike many players of this era they went out and they just played. And that's so important. I don't know all right next. One is from Eric shine cough longtime listener Been to a bunch of events as well. What's up eric. I'm disappointed that in terms of spending the answer not acting like the dodgers but amid market team concerned about the luxury tax the cost That costs them. A two thousand seventeen rotarians overlander and in two thousand nineteen twenty. They didn't do anything also should have tried for linda to get a super infielder super infield george wanted to win. I make money second. How is the reverse. Okay guys. there's one thing what thing that's that's the yankees are not a mid market team. And they're not spending like a amid market team. they're they're right up against luxury tax. Which is a large sum of money to have on the roster in the first place didn't do anything in two thousand nineteen thousand twenty. Well that's not true. Gerke cole was signed for a long term deal was paid an exorbitant amount of money To to come in and be the ace of the staff for a very long time they got their guy just because this year they didn't go out and sign what really the only opportunity for me to improve it on the free agent market in the pitching staff side was trevor bauer trevor. Bauer got a stupid amount of money. Yes it put them over short term. So there's an argument to be made there but there were a ton of opportunities for them that were definite and maybe they don't even think. Trevor bauer definite because one wild card off the field. He's you look at his career stats. He's not career wise. Not the guy that he was lascher in his cy young and his young camping but they they could evaluate differently and they see the the other opportunities and played more of the volume game and depth game than going out and getting one guy while staying under so you could argue both ways but i definitely don't see them as not a a team that's spending money because they are spending money and they have spent money but i mean what i think. Eric's point is that the lux there. They yankees hal steinbrenner and the yankees now are treating the luxury tax cap as a hard cap and not a soft cap. They're not they. They believe you can build a consistent championship caliber round by staying under the luxury tax. And they might be right. But the counter argument to that is when you're the yankees. You shouldn't have to confine yourself. Why are you. Why are you playing by the same rules when you don't have to play by the same rules as all the other mid and small market teams that their owners just refuse to spend the money because they can't spend the money they don't make the same revenues as the yankees make the yankees print money. It's not that big of a penalty when you just look at the the balance sheet as not that big of a penalty if they go over the luxury tax but how refuses to because he believes in the business model that you don't need to do it. That's been a business model that they've talked about. And they dave been very public about saying as well but how does the fact that last year. No fans in the stands this your. We have really touch on this. Because i mean yeah it's t the yankees are allowing cuomo opened up too big. It was a ten thousand ten percent so ten percent capacity or allowed. So that's that's that's five thousand fans five five hundred fifty one hundred fans. Yeah i think the technical Capacities forty six and change but yes. So it's the did they cut out. They cut out see. Here's the thing is that's a small amount of fans. My question is. How much does that play. Into the fact that this year and the uncertainty with the collective bargaining agreement all of these things uncertainty plan to not going after a gallic. Trevor bauer this. You're going over for for this one year. Maybe when when the covid hayes is lifted to to a more clear long-term future and we're able to see a little bit further down the road maybe that maybe that shifts a bit when you look at the current oster. I think they're using it as a convenient excuse. They can say we can lean into cove and we can lean on the no fans stuff as a reason why we're staying under the luxury tax but but when you when you to be doing really using that as the excuse either hal steinbrenner's set on ration- but they've also talked before covid that this was a game plan that they're they want to stay under the luxury tax even prove it but since then since cova they have said we've we got hit harder than any other team that's fine but it's just all really support what they've already said they're trying to do so i i don't i don't know i think that I think when you when you literally do the math and you realize it's only like extra ten ten to fifteen million bucks of a real dollars that you're you're spending if you go if you make one signing that goes over the luxury tax i. I can't imagine that affects. The negatively affects the balance. Sheet for the yankees. That much. it can't you can't run at that finn of margins. It's not like they're running at a two percent margin. It depends on what you're doing that at that point. If you're making a big splash the player. That's a longer term deal. It might make sense right. It might make some sense you have. You have a guy locked up trevor. Bauer would have put them over so you you look at the aav there and what was he. What was he at forty forty for this year. Forty five for next so at the luxury tax penalty to that. Because that's what's putting you over. Essentially that's what your cost is. I'm not even arguing for bauer. I'm just saving even looking at a position player that could needed. So let's take another example. Look at like michael brantley Yeah michael brantley what that was sixteen million bucks so even ten to fifteen million dollars. Put somewhere in there. It's still gonna knock you over but then you have to by four million but then you're adding the now the difference of the luxury tax on your adding essentially that to the deal. Because that's what put you over right. I mean if you're looking at it. In that way depending on how long the deal is understanding what that what that is adding to the player it it may just knocked the value completely out of his own. And that's why they're trying to look at other ways. It's dan if you do damned if you don't move because if you're looking at a guy like trevor bauer to me that's making it extremely expensive for a wildcard. He's a joker. I mean that is what he is. He's a joker he could be great ki. Could be middle of the road. We you don't know And then a guy like a brand. Just gonna make a player. That's nice player. Helps the team just very expensive. Yeah yeah. I just think i mean to erik's pointing it's not like the making the original point on this george would not have cared and healthcare's that's the difference between the two different mentality between there's different mentality between two. There's no doubt our man that's for for mailbags were We're going to cut it. andrews go change a diaper and i got like seven notification. Get for breakfast and what she wants for a very long time. Do use koo koo. It's like a baby monitor. And they can. It's looking over the crib. And they send push notifications. I got like seven seven push notifications baby detected baby not detected. Baby crying okay. So we did we. Did we have one of those monitors and we were like okay. We need to understand everything. Is he still breathing. Is still happening. Granted our situation with a little bit different but even less even in those situations where like. We're going to go insane. I can't i. Can't i can't have like twenty four seven monitoring and b be so Guided by these notifications or the or the buzzers and beeps and no i still in that face of still in the face of like every time he makes a noise and like. Oh my god is he dead. I know 'cause it's new and you're responsible for a life it's frigging scary but yeah those you will turn those off soon. I guarantee it. Cool man. well. Congratulations i know. You've got a been through the wringer past week. But i i know everybody speak for everybody's listening to the show We we send our congratulations and excited for harrison man. I'm ready for the harrison income. Show soon it's coming up soon. Twenty maybe twenty twenty six when a rut inducted into all the hall of fame. We're gonna have like a a nine. How old kemp at that point nine. When is that twenty twenty six. Th five years yeah. Eight or nine eight. Change a a nine and a five year old hosting podcasts. Why not. I love it though. Probably be a A youtube channel for that. I think that that plays now and youtube could do that really well. Heather good have a good day. We'll talk to you next week. Happy pitchers and catchers. let's go. Hey guys thanks for listening to the bronx pincer show. Make sure you find us an itunes and subscribe. She can get all new episodes directly onto your phone. If you do like to show you love you to take a minute. And give us a five star rating and review an itunes. It really helps us out and allows us to create more shows. We're on twitter at bronx pinstripes and the same on facebook. You can always find us. They're talking yankee baseball. Thanks again guys for your support. Really appreciate it and go yankees.

Brett gardner yankees jay bruce Mike ford bruce baseball cashman ricky henderson Bruce gardner gary sanchez justin wilson jay harrison mariners chris van vliet Rotundi scott ryan
The Moth Radio Hour: Parental Guidance

The Moth

52:12 min | 1 year ago

The Moth Radio Hour: Parental Guidance

"Here x this is the moth radio hour. I'm Jay Allison producer of this radio. Show today. We'll hear about lessons Our parents teach us whether they mean to or not our first storyteller is bridget Davis. She told her story at the Ford Community and performing forming Arts Center in Detroit Michigan where the moth was presented by Michigan Radio. Yours Bruce Davis live at the moment. I was in my first grade class one day and I had just shown my teacher Miss Miller and assignment we had to colored the paper pedals cut them out and paste them onto a picture of a flower. And as I'm returning to my seat Miss Miller stops me and she says you sure do have a lot of shoes the week before she had asked me what my father did did for a living and I said he doesn't work and she said well what does your mother do and I froze. I knew I could not tell her that. My mom was in the numbers which was a lot like today's lottery. Except that it was underground underground and it really existed for decades before the state basically took it over. My mom was a numbers runner. That means that every day except Sunday she would take people's beds on three digit numbers collect their money when they didn't win. Pay Out their winnings when they did in profit from the difference and the thing says the numbers was wildly popular it generated millions of dollars in every major city in the country. And so so you can imagine that. A lot of that money circulated through the black community and those dollars turned over many many times. I mean numbers. Money helped provide services that black folks desperately needed. It really helped with launching. Small Businesses and Providing College College Scholarships and it help folks get home loans and even helped a fledgling in double. ACP stay afloat for years. My mom was high ranking. She wasn't just a numbers runner. She was a banker and that means that she didn't just have her own customers but other bookies turn their business into her and she was the only the only woman in Detroit operating at that level for a long time. That's how she was able to give us a solid Follett middle-class life solid middle class life. And so you can imagine that I was really really really proud proud of my mom. I just thought this is really incredible that she's able to give us this kind of middle class life but what I loved. Most of all it was I can do it now. I can conjure the sound of her voice on the phone taking her customers beds she would say okay Miss Queenie. I'm ready to take your numbers. Six nine to stray for fifty cents seventy eighty bucks four dollar Dr and folks had these really creative ways of coming up with numbers to play. They had all kinds of ways they would think about what three ditches ages they wanted to play. They could play their birth dates or their anniversaries or their addresses or their license plates. Some some people even like to play their favorite Bible. Verse Anfernee for me to just hear my mom reciting those numbers. Every morning. It was like a daytime lullaby because because it meant that everything was right in the world you know because my mom was handling her business on on the other hand. It is true that it was a livelihood based on a daily win or lose gamble so yes I also remember number how we would all gather around and wait for that phone call. Every evening there would announce the days winning numbers they were based on race. Track results was like this tense. Silence moved through our home. Like a like nervous prayer and will we actually heard the winning numbers we took our cues from mama either. She looked relieved or she looked worried. Either she'd been lucky that day or one of her customers had been and it wasn't that she ever ver- resented her customers winning. She would always say folks play numbers to hit so you cannot be mad when they do I. It was so proud of my mom. I knew she was not like any of my friends. Mothers I knew she was running things and one day I Decided I was going to organize all of her numbers running materials and so I went through the house gathering gathering everything into this shallow cardboard box. Her spiral notebooks and her white scratch pads in her black binders minders and her red ink pens. And then I very carefully painted on the side of the box Mama's numbers this and I used Bright Pink Nail Polish. I was so impressed with myself because I remembered numbered the possessive S. So I proudly show this to my mom and she takes one on look and says you cannot put my business out in the street like that and that's when it hit me that I had to keep my admiration for my mom mom private and it's not that she was ever apologetic or embarrassed about what she did. There was no shame attached attached to it. My mom made it very clear that the numbers was a legitimate business. That just happened to be the legal. And she had all of these ways to help. To mitigate the risk of exposure. My mom basically lived a low key lifestyle. She never flaunted her wealth yes she always wiz drove a new car but it was a Buick Riviera and not a cadillac. And we lived in a lovely the home on a tree lined street but we did not live in one of the big houses in an exclusive enclave in Detroit and uh we were well dressed. My mom was the best dressed of all but her style was understated. You know she was classic Unclassy. No one would have ever described my mother. s flashy my mom's edict words. Keep your head up and your mouth shut. Be Proud but be private. And that's why when my first grade teacher asked me what my mom did for a living. I knew I could not tell her the truth. I knew I could not reveal the family business. We all knew to keep that secret. The only problem was I hadn't been told what I should say. So I said in this Miller. I'm not sure when my mom does and after Miss Miller said to me you sure do have a lot of shoes. She said to me before you sit down. I want you to name every pair of shoes as you have go ahead. I was so nervous because it felt like a test and so I didn't want to get it wrong. I I went to this mental inventory of all the shoes that lined my closet. Shell and I started naming them. The black can wipe polka dotted with the Bowtie. The buckled Ruby red ones the salmon pink lace ups and I managed to get through ten ten pairs of shoes and Miss Miller said to me. Ten pairs is an awful lot and and I could hear something Something bad in her voice she ordered me to take my seat and then the next day in Class Miss Miller called me back to her desk and she said you did not tell me you had white shoes. I looked at my feet and I felt like I had been caught in a lie. I I knew I had disappointed my teacher and the rest of the day. I was so worried that I was in trouble and so that evening after my mother was finished taking her customers beds and before the days winning numbers came out during that brief expectant pause in the day when she was leased distracted and still still in a good mood. I told her what happened at school. I confessed that I forgot to tell Miss Miller about the eleventh pair of shoes I never seen. My mother gets so angry. She was furious and and I thought I about to get a spanking but in fact my mom said to me that is none of her damn. AM business who does she think she is. And then my mom's stood up and said get your coat and I thought Oh my God we are going back to school and she's going to confront Miss Miller but in in fact. My mom took me to saks. Fifth Avenue where we made our way to the children's shoe department. She pointed to the most beautiful pair of yellow patent leather shoes. And she said those are pretty. I'm I'm telling you I still can remember when my mother pulled out a one hundred dollars bill and paid for those. Oh shoot. The saleswoman looked at her the way. Miss Miller had looked at me on the way home. My Mom said you're going to wear these the school tomorrow and you better tell that damn. Am Teacher of yours that you actually have a dozen pair of shoes. You hear me the next day. I wore my new shoes shoes with a matching yellow knit dress and in class. I was so nervous but I did is I was told. I walked up to my teacher's Teacher's desk and I said Miss Miller. I have twelve pairs of shoes. She looked down at my feet and then she leveled her blue eyes in my face and she said sit down. Miss Miss Miller never said another word to me Cindy me to school that day in those decidedly unsubtle. Bright yellow shoes. My mom really did risk raising Miss Miller suspicions But she did it to make a point and it was one that I understood and heard loud and clear. No one can tell me ever what I'm entitled to. My mom used material things as armor against a world designed to convince US black working class children and migrants they. We didn't deserve a good life. And her mission was to make sure we knew otherwise. So yes twelve pairs of shoes for a six zero girl. Who's going to outgrow them in? A few months might seem excessive but for my mom it was an investment limit in how I walked into the future with my head up but I did continue to keep my mouth shut for decades. I never told anyone what my mother did for a living. Not even after Michigan's Daily Lottery became legal and not even even after my mother died which means I never got to tell anyone how proud I was of her until now was bridget Davis every day. Bridget plays the New York lottery game. Which is actually called numbers at a Bodega nearer? We're home. She plays six seven five her home address which according to her favourite dream book also plays for her mom's name Fanny since publishing her memoir on this subject project has received dozens of emails from people of all backgrounds. Greek Jewish Irish Italian Polish Lebanese Panamanian Ukrainian and more revealing how their family members once played or operated the numbers. Nearly all all were sharing their stories for the first time to see photos of bridget and her mom along along with a picture of her mother taking customers number over the phone visit the mosque dot org and coming up the surprising lessons of a nine alarm fire when the moth radio hour continues The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts associates and presented by the Public Radio Exchange P R X dot. Org Gleam is a new kind of electric toothbrush with a sleek bleak minimal aesthetic and cordless operation gleam is designed to be functional beautiful and accessibly priced. It uses sonic technology to produce just just right bristle vibrations for gentle effective clean gleam retails at just twenty five dollars in every order from gleam dot com ships free to learn earn more headed gleam dot com slash moth. That's G. L. E. M. dot com slash M. O. T. H.. This is the moth radio hour from Pierre Rex. I'm Jay Allison. Our next story in this hour about parental lessons comes from. I'm Elliott a couple of minutes into her story. La Talks about a coat her father designed for her when she was a kid and she holds it up for the audience to see. We don't want did you to feel left out so if you WANNA see a picture of the code. It's on our website though more dot Org. Here's Ellie League live at the mall. The so there's a kind of wisdom that fathers have and then there's the kind of wasn't that my father has has for example when he does things he thinks he's totally brilliant and I just think he's crazy for example. I immigrated from Hong Kong. He thought it'd be a good the idea for all of us to have American names. which would you know make sense because it would make the transition a lot easier and so my dad chose the American name Ming even though so it's like not even his Chinese name? It's just like another Chinese name. It's like dynasty. You know so so. When we came over her to this country we really had nothing? We were penniless so in order to save money my thought was a really smart idea to make and design my first I winter coat. I was three years old and to this day. He thinks it's like the best design. There you go in mid seriously. He thinks it's like Oh. This is great. We should market this thirties. That's the wisdom that my father has one more example of his wisdom on one day he came home and there was a sale and belts and use like bottom mant monogram belt and he was so excited. He's like look at this. They had the big shiny letter A.. On it even though our family name is Leigh Anne is like Dad. Why did you get a letter during bill? That doesn't make any sense. He's like Oh. I got a because as ace which is either like you have to understand something about Chinese people. Chinese people are obsessed about about being number one. Like you know like I have a belt now that says so. I'm number one ace and and something like if you never noticed in chinatowns across the country three like Chinese business people like they always have to find the best number one name for their business in order to bring in all the money in the good fortune which is why everything's like an imperial dynasty. The lucky dragon number one kitchen like that's the home at that is my dad. That's his mentality. So so the first few years of being in this country country just had no time off and worked like crazy and managed to save a little money to start his own business. It was a very modest grocery store in Boston's Chinatown and of course he called men's market but in Chinese the name of it was paying Gashi which literally means cheap price market and it was. Is that even as a little kid. Like I didn't understand like literally told me one day that he would like markup something by five cents markup another thing by ten cents and I was like hardly ever GonNa make money like this business. Business Model is insane. It was the wisdom of that you know but but strangely enough like almost immediately developed a really loyal following in Boston's Chinatown. Because for the first time I think working families in working poor families actually had a place where they could buy affordable healthy good groceries and eat. Well which is no no small thing when you're poor so my dad. After about ten years of having this grocery store he built it up to be a very successful business and by nineteen thousand nine. He had moved moved into a an enormous space. It became New England's largest Asian market and At the same time that year. I mean you know I was snotty teenager. I still thought while you're crazy successful visit mad but you're nuts you know of crazy ideas and you know at the same time there is a he's been renting a first floor in this vacant building. That'd been vacant for like twenty. No thirty years and the landlord was trying to renovate the other floors to try to Rented out as retail space. But he was doing everything on the cheap so instead of hiring hiring contractor. He was like welding and renovating on his own without pulling permits so one day as you can probably expect something out of hand and this big fire broke out as he was welding holding but it was okay you know they got all the they evacuated the building about one hundred and fifty people and the fire trucks arrived immediately and everything was fine until the fire department hooked up their hoses to the hydrant and there was no water to fight the fire. And they're like Oh that's weird you know so. They went down a couple of blocks and try the next hydrant and it was totally early dry. What had happened? Was that the city of Boston. A few months prior they were doing road construction and generally when you drill drill deep they turn off the water utter pressure in case they hit a water main and when they sealed up the road they forgot to turn the pressure backup so the firefighters had no tools to fight the fire and it was just disaster. I mean it was just like an hour later. The buildings still on fire. And there's no water. They're trying to jerry rig something from a nearby hydrant like you know like ten blocks away and if things I couldn't get worse. The fire jumped in alley and the building next door caught on fire on the top floor was ten thousand square feet of illegally stashed fireworks so oh so. Firefighters couldn't scale ladders. There's like a me. It was a surreal moment. Things are exploding in celebration. You know normally you'd have fireworks as my dad's stood there completely helpless watching his life's work. Just be destroyed in a moment through no fault of his own so I got a call. I was a sophomore at the time in college. I went out to the store the next day when It was you know kind of dislike. Smoldering it was an on fire anymore and as I made my approach to the store I remember seeing three elderly only women across the street and they were crying and so I went up to them and I said you know is everything okay. Why are you crying lady looked at me and then she looked at my dad's store for burnt down store and pointed and teary-eyed said you know where are we going to go now that we don't have a home and that was kind of like a turning point for for me I? I hadn't really thought about my dad's store in that way like you know. I just thought it was something he was doing to provide for the family and But in fact he was kind of providing for a greater community. Like you know these elderly women. They didn't have a community center to go. They didn't have a public park in Chinatown and this was the only place where they would actually run into their friends guns and they spent a lot of time there in a in a way it was like a second home and I guess it is true. It sounds Corny but like you only really do realize what you have when you lose it and so in the months that followed I kept begging my dad for more stories and a one time. He told me a story. About how a little boy I asked him if people what he did with people who shoplifters you know because I was really curious and he said you know one day I caught a kid ca- shoplifting. He was only ten and I didn't know who I was. I was Kinda following him around. He was just like taking stuff like stuffing his bag putting it in his pockets and and one one moment like he actually took a break from stealing and sat down a certain eating the food he had stolen my. Here's this right in the middle of a an aisle. My Dad came up to him. He didn't know who the WHO he was he said. Hey little boy. Have you had enough to eat. And a little boy rubbed his Belize. Please like almost in. Oh my dad's okay. So where are your parents. He's like well they're at work like. Oh why aren't you at home. It's like because there's is no food at home and my dad said well you know when you take stuff especially if it's at a store and you don't pay for it's actually stealing and the little boy starts getting really nervous. Like Oh my God. All this guy's GonNa get me in trouble you know. He's kind of angling away to get out and my dad's like you know so in the future if you don't have anything to eat at home which you just please just come and find me me and asked me for whatever you need if you ask. I'll give you whatever you want. Just don't steal because stealing is wrong and in the months that followed. I think my dad really looked forward forward to seeing the little boy and and it was these stories. I was craving and I was asking my dad because in some way I think I was trying to recreate something that I'd lost or had kind of taken for granted granted so whenever we went to Chinatown remember lots of people would come up to us and say please. We need a store like this again. When you're going to open up your store and it was hard because my dad ad was basically penniless like the fire had caused about twenty million dollars worth of damage and he barely had enough insurance to cover it? I mean it was like not just inventory but like the bean sprout machine like the machine that he leads to wash and dry beans. I mean stuff like that and so you really had no money. But he had this idea that maybe he could pull together a little money. He did have with a lot of the original employees people. For whom there they were immigrants and they got their first jobs through my dad at the store and been working there since the seventies so they pulled together it was a big risk. The only location that could find was just on the outskirts of Chinatown. which in the early nineties during the last recession it was a no-man's-land it's like this area really like it so unsafe and the only reason you would ever go there to like get a prostitute or drugs you know? It's like it was so unsafe and at the time I remember in college thinking like what's the wisdom of that like. Why are you going there so unsafe? No one's going to go. It's just going to. You're going to lose your life savings but he did it anyways because he's crazy you know and he and almost kind of overnight the place was revitalized you know. They're really loyal. People that families from the suburbs came and gave patronage to my dad. You know people walk from Chinatown and soon thereafter more and more businesses are popping up and then there was more and more foot traffic and then and then families started moving back into the neighborhood and it was amazing thing like he kind of helped revitalize this neighborhood neighborhood to the point that then fifteen years later it became one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in Boston. Which is why my dad got an addiction notice from the owner because he wanted to kick my dad out and knocked down the whole block and build luxury condos? This was a few years ago. So I remember my dad at the time of seventy and I said What do you do? You have like ninety employees. And like they're all in their forties and fifties. You know they don't speak English the kind of very hard to employ. What's going to happen open to them and I remember remember at the time? Dad said you know You know I'm seven years old. I'm too old for this too old to fight and I understand what my dad says that right but at the time. I decided that I wasn't too old to fight. So I organize the community and sorry I organize the community. The and led this grass roots movement to Fight City Hall and fight one of the largest developers in all of Boston to try to hold at our first public. Hearing was really amazing turnout. We got enough press that even the mayor changed his tune in. Start supporting where we were coming. I'm from it was an incredible thing so after the first initial hearing I remember going to the store afterwards and immediately when I walked in there was these two older women who were who were my dad's employees and the camera they rush right up to me and I said thank you so much for what you did last night. You know. We normally don't think that we have a voice and we normally don't think we can advocate for ourselves and that kind of way. So thank you for for doing what you did. And when I look and look when I looked into their eyes I think I felt like the same feeling that my dad felt when he saw the boy that once shoplifted or saw the old woman outside the store weeping and when I looked into their eyes I saw so much compassion and humility. The End Grace is at that moment that I understood the wisdom that my father had given me l. e. Lee is an award winning director writer and producer at fiction animated and documentary films. She is a five time National Emmy Award nominee currently. She's writing screenplays. One of which is loosely based on her family stories in Boston's Chinatown in the nineteen eighties. The fire in her dad's store. It was a nine alarm fire. One of the biggest in Boston's Eli's parents immigrated the Boston from from Hong Kong when she was a baby per father picked Boston because he wanted his kids to get a good education and the only schools he'd ever heard of were Harvard. Mit La is a graduate of Harvard. University coming up a rebellious teenager and the bipolar mother when the moth radio hour continues The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic public media in woods hole whole Massachusetts and presented by the Public Radio Exchange. Pr X DOT ORG. The holidays are upon us and for some that means lots of uncomfortable comfortable situations your steering clear of political discussions and Sharon Burns the PS. And your partner takes the last piece of your favorite Pie. But you know it is comfortable. Albert's all birds are sleek and minimalist shoes that are always a perfect fit. I have the tree breezy flats in black and they're so comfortable. They're like secret slippers. That look like dress shoes. You can wear them with any outfit to any holiday occasion. They're really like a second skin. All birds of the perfect gift to make the holidays a little less uncomfortable for everyone on your list. Give the gift of comfort this holiday season or get a pair for yourself at all. BIRDS DOT COM. You're listening to the moth radio hour from PR ex. I'm Jay Allison producer of this show next up Jason Schommer. Who told Oh this story about his mother's wisdom in the twin cities at a moth Grand Slam? The theme of the night was growing pains. Here's Jason Live live at the mall growing up. We never never fought but the few times we did it was off the charts. I was furious. I grabbed grab a handful of money. I stomped out of the House and I walked all the way to Palmyra. Once I got in that store I headed right to health and beauty and I snatched home perm tip right off the shelf. I was GONNA turn my hair for my senior photos that no one was gonNA stop me. Not even my mom who said it was terrible idea. Never growing up in a small town I was different. I stuck out like a sore thumb back in the fourth grade. My parents moved from Minneapolis. To little falls MINNESOTA. A small conservative rural farming community in my life was basically footloose. Only we could dance in. I didn't look like Kevin Bacon get I just did not fit in with my peers and and my classmates everyday walking through the halls of school. I was lost in a sea of mullets and wrangler jeans. Two different worlds colliding colliding. They like to smoke in Woodshop class. I liked theater arts. They head banged to ACDC. I voted vocal to Madonna. They wore cowboy boots. I had penny loafers. How wow so as I left I called my friend Heidi from the payphone on the street corner and I told her I'm coming over and I hung up doc now? Heidi was the queen of bad decisions. Heidi love to skip school and she even failed gym class. She was also dating a boy from Juby. Heidi opened her door before I could even knock she. She knew something big was about to happen. It's she wanted it through that herm box on the table. She grabbed a towel. How will we were doing it so we did the Perm and let me tell you this? It took hours. It was a nightmare mayor. I almost lost an eye. Chemical was everywhere. My Scalp was burning. We lost a couple of chunks of hair. But I knew it'd be worth it because I figured I am changing my density. I'M GONNA be a new person when I go to school often. Kids are GONNA stare as I walk in slow motion and they're going to be thinking. Wow who's that new cool kid it. How can I be friends with him family? It was just me getting high from the fumes from the per so the next day my mom and I drove over to the portrait studio so I can have my singer photos. Taken the silence in that car deafening as my mom was mute with seething rage age and I was muggy with victory prior to perm. My hair was long and straight in Brown. I had an asymmetrical haircut which one end is a lot longer than the other end. The flipped over to the left it was berry flock of seagulls nineteen eighty so once I turned it the length of my hair caused these giant ringlets that bounce like crazy. Every every time I took a step or snapped my my hair had so much drama beyond say would be jealous so once. We're in the Parker Studio. I took a can of Mousse flip off. The cap made the giant mound a foam work it into my hair and it was frozen in time a few minutes later it was frozen in the turn. Eighty as the a flash bulb by senior photo was taken. My mom hung the photo up in our living room and displayed it prominently. She never missed an opportunity to tell anyone who came over to the house. Oh have you seen Jason Senior photo. Why yes it is a a perm? It is yeah. I told him not to but no one listens to mom right Jason which I always find with okay. Okay Hey listen. It was popular at the time but the sad reality was the perm was never popular in. I was never popular a one day. I finally admitted to my mom. I get it mom. It was a mistake. Can we just take the photo down. And she looked at me and she said Oh honey we we all make mistakes. That's how we figure out who we are in life. Unfortunately though sometimes mistakes live frame. I'm the living room wall forever. That was Jason Shown. Jason is a stand up comedian storyteller. He spent two years as the opening. ACT FOR COMEDY ICON. Louis Anderson. Jason says fourteen years ago his mom unfortunately lost her battle with cancer but she would have been proud to see how things turned out. God and would've loved this story. Everyone always asks like where. Where's the picture of the Perm now like? Did you put it back up in. I can honestly say yes. The picture of me and the Perm is back on the wall. Where my mom would want it to be to see photos of Jason his mom? And of course that Perm photo visit visit our website. The DOT ORG Our final story story and parental lesson in this hour is from Louise Newton. He'll Louise told this story at an open mic story slam competition in Melbourne Australia. Where we partner with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation? ABC Here's Louise Okay. So when I was younger whenever my mother would say the words to me I love you I I would die a little bit inside. Not because she didn't love me and not because I didn't love her because she did and I do but because that meant she was starting on another many beside you say. My mother struggled all her life with bipolar disorder that was diagnosed housed and untreated until she was in a fifties and it might be interesting upbringing. Some of it was a lot of fun. We had some wacky times like she dragged us out of bed to morning to worship the moon and when she now has she did it but she got a hall stash of fireworks and we had learned fireworks fireworks night in the backyard and knives didn't like it but we loved it but for the most part growing with a parent with a mental illness was really really tough and challenging. Particularly after my dad left he had his own set of circumstances and he left when I was ten particularly after that it was just awesome her and it was a really steep learning curve. We learned more from mom than we did. Twenty years of schooling. We learnt that every year saw this sweet Jane to kind beautiful woman would have what was termed then in his a nervous breakdown and would transfer for transforming to someone. We didn't know it was a bit Dr. JEKYLL and Mr Hyde on was with mom and what we could not bag mom. We learned that it was possible to have not back numb. Scream and abusing your feis steal from whatever may get a little bit you went from your from your pipe around or whatever jobs we got from the neighbors and coal you teaches to tell them what a terrible horrible human being. You're she even called grandma. Union lectures want. I don't know how she got. He's time number but she'd it. It was possible for her to do that. And for that to be a kind for us to get past it and to forgive. We lent compassion because for as much as we he suffered and we did. It was obvious even from that young age that there was nobody who is struggling more than mum that they that she she and she alone both of these and she would have done anything to read of self of what she saw as occurs. We learned that the medical system. Tom Files people with mental health issues. It did then it does now. Nothing's changed and we learnt took a lie on each other. We knew I'm very young. I at the annual we were going to get through. These was if we valley together. My brother monster assist. There's an eye and protect ourselves and Emma so my brother when he was in year seven took over all of the finances that included included dumb talking to bank managers about the ditz. Mum's mum racked up organizing how to pay bills organizing a budget for the weekly shopping and my sister Mary at about the Siamese started taking Annetta Jape and going down to the supermarket and buying things so we had food so that mom couldn't spend it at all or nothing. My job was to make sure my two youngest sisters did the homework so the school wouldn't come knocking on doors. Say What was wrong. We like to look after to reach other took it in turns to look after mum to bear the brunt of the righteous to make sure she was okay to just bay for her when the inevitable collapse is carry but we also learned to be vigilant because even in a stable towns where a lot of very good stable times. We will always on the lookout for the next time the next episode and unfortunately one of the main point is for that was I love you. You lost track of the amount of times that had conversations with my siblings would go something like. Hey Mom loves me again and I want to be a aw crap here we go and it didn't just stop there. I love US got more and more extreme the further she elevated often coming at the end of some hideous insult. Your horrible person and I wish you'd never been but I love you as if that might but it didn't take time to those three beautiful words for me And and it made it almost impossible for me to be able to say them back and I don't know what it was but it stuck lock block in my chest and I'd find on myself that thanks for that. That's good cool right gay good on Ya. But I wasn't able to say it was hard onto a coffee guy. My mom had what we thought was the mother of all episodes but it actually turned out to be an even worse condition. She had developed a condition code Lewy Body Syndrome which is a form of dementia. That is rapid and unrelenting and has destroyed her body the and her mind and equal pass. She now he's in a really lovely K.. Facility and she cannot walk Feta's off Oklahoma Self and she could barely talk and I see her every Sunday and hold a hand sit with her and sometimes sometimes I talk but some muscle yes and sometimes we listen to music but must have time to sit in silence and it's very healing and it's very peaceful and Nice. She likes me there but the license still haven't stopped because my mother says two things to me and she said only two things to me for the last year the first one one is when I get there and she says it's you ingrate supplies and she signed pleased me and we sit together and then went on leaving. She holds my hand and she smiles and she says I love you and and somehow it's act doesn't hurt me anymore it doesn't make me cringe. It actually feels a lot. It feels perfect. It feels beautiful so I guess the lesson I've learnt perhaps the last listen overland from my mother each had a he those words I love you and had aside them back. I love you mom see you soon. That was Louise's Newton Keough Louise's a freelance writer and the university administrator from Melbourne Australia. When she's not working? Louise spends her time writing reading baking celebration cakes or walking the beautiful tree lined streets pizza. Ver- neighborhood she says her driving passion is family and she's the proud mother of four mostly adult children and a spoonful called atticus. Louise has always been the teller of her family stories. A role she cherishes mom died early. In the year of twenty-eight team it was a gentle death she slipped away in his sleep without pinal struggle. My loss visit to her was on you you save. I held her hand played music to her and read to her a chapter. Her favorite book is women by that stage died. She had virtually lost the power of speech but she did smile often and as I lift she looked into my eyes and we split. I love you one last time. It has been nearly two years now since mom passed away and I still miss having your in my life but I like to think of hers very now for the mental illness that she fought bravely for so long and the dementia that cooled her final few views and that someway somehow. She's smiling at having his story told and I will be forever grateful that the last words she heard me say well. I love you to To See photos of Louise and her mother you can visit our website. More DOT Org. Do you have a story to tell us. We welcome your pitches. You could record them right on our site. That's the moth dot org or call eight seven seven seven seven nine nine moth. That's eight seven seven seven nine nine. Six six eight four. We listened to all of them. The best ones are developed Philip from all shows all around the world. My story is about my ill-fated attempt to help luke get over his fear of being being by a baseball and it involves me taking him up to the coin-operated batting cages in San Rafael. And versing him to watch me. We get voluntarily struck by pitch just so that he could see that it wasn't that big of a deal except of course that it it kind of was. It's a big deal I I don't think either of us will ever forget the sound that ball made as it ricocheted off my elbow and I know I'll never forget get the pain that was so exquisite and I'll never forget the fact that my son saw me cry for the very first time not my best day even worse. That little incident did not help. Luke get over spirit. Getting being evacuated accomplished anything that we're both now terrified that engages gauges he's fifteen now and he's re of the tyranny of organized sports but I hope that he knows the Dad who while often this guy did in is it tends to buy. Solutions is still very eager to help his son remember. You can pitches pitches at eight seven seven seven nine nine moth or online at the mall or you could share these stories or any others from the moth archive and find out about mall storytelling events in your area all through our website. The most Donald they're more events events year round. You can find a show near you and come out and tell us a story. Find US on social media to wear on facebook and twitter at the mall That's it for this hour. We hope you'll join US next time. And that's the story Stories in this show were directed by Kathryn Burns and make bowls with additional coaching by Michelle. Hausky the rest of the mosque erectile staff includes Sarah Haberman Sarah Austin genetics and Jennifer Hickson production. Boy from Emily Couch are pitch came from Peter. Rudy Mall Stories. Stories are true as remembered an affirmed by the storytellers. Our theme music is by the drift. Other music in this hour from Julian Lodge ten had trio blue dot sessions and Lotus. You've been find links to all the music we us at our website. The Moth Radio Hour produced by me Jay Allison with Vicky he merrick at Atlantic public media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. This hour was produced with funds from the National Endowment for the Arts Moth Radio Hour or is presented by the Public Radio Exchange P R X dot org for more about our podcast for information on pitching us your own story and everything else go to. You are website. They'll moth dot org

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The Sedano Show (HR 2)

Afternoons with Marcellus & Kelvin

40:37 min | 1 year ago

The Sedano Show (HR 2)

"Is this now beyond say from Liking Zoo Lion King Science called spirit. Yes so I gotTa tell you sit a song. Those even had kids and you can be taking them to the theater soon. Yes I gotta say it looks pretty good to me like I. I've been you know I realize I'm a Disney company man and whatnot and Chemnitz Yomas Sook in for George Sodano but some of these live action reboots like the Aladdin's and stuff like. Did you see a lead. No I didn't see it but I wasn't doesn't excited by the prospect of it. Line King looks pretty good. I've heard that if you obviously everybody has emotional connection to the the the animated version that it's a little bit harder to get that with this movie if you are very connected to the animated version I mean that's tough that the lion king was re the animated version of it was like spectacular in the way that they made created those characters and they were able to make those like you said on human connections and it can be for some reason it's different with cartoons yeah then sort of like something that feels more computerized. You know what I mean like. It feels like there's one more layer between like you as a human. We're looking right now the commercials for Lion King. I don't know I again it. Looks it's pretty good to me and I and I say that somebody who hasn't been necessarily that excited about as many of these type of adaptations of before we get in the Kawhi Leonard some interesting news from Khan again Guli covers the Lakers for the L. A. Times tweets you just sent out with an eye towards his growing business interests. Kyle Kuzma is parting ways with his agents Mark Bartlestein Zach Curtain of priorities sports and entertainment according sources. He hasn't started meeting with perspective agents yet. Ah We've new has what he just that might be. We've known for a long time though Macau coups MMA since he came into the League <hes> and I used to tone this all the time to his rookie ski season that he was really big overseas in China and I used to tell him I'm like pounce on this. You know what I mean like. Do what you can to expand your brand. He's always been a guy. That's been very conscientious of that same time. There's a certain agency that just joined up with U._T._A.. A Powerhouse Hollywood agency <hes> there now going to be operating under the U._T._A.. Umbrella and as part of now now a major sports presence with U._T._A.. You might have heard of a mom they're called clutch may have heard about that <hes> Rich Paul and Clutch of now combined forces with U._T._A.. Specifically to try to give athletes more opportunities that could include business wouldn't be shocked and see if that's where Kyle kouzmines up going now I mean I'm not GonNa speculate but you know I mean it would whatever happens he was with a guy mark. Bartlestein is one of the most stands a really good end up people in all sports sorts when it comes to agent so <hes> he was already in good hands but in this case it looks like you know according to statement that that Tanya tweet tweet out from Bartlestein they the visions weren't aligned and so it looks like you know coups. Has You know he has grander plans. Yeah I mean me. I will say this and again like you're saying before him. Mark Bartlestein has a terrific reputation around the league. It would be pretty cool to me and a lot of ways reassuring to see coups mma end up going to clutch and I that's going to be the speculation where it ends up whether it ends up happening or not that's what everybody is going to be expecting. I would like seeing that just because it's felt more and more like coups. MMA is being accepted as appear of Lebron's like they're obviously not on the same level but you know they were palling around in Vegas felt like Lebron and Anthony Davis were having Kyle Kuzma at the adult table whereas last year he really felt like he was at the Kid table and as far as the potential future with Kyle Kuzma mm-hmm and the Lakers and having that type of respect from Lebron A._D.. Ending up with clutch to me feels the magically something that would be reassuring the Laker fans regardless of if he does or not I mean what a d. and Lebron doing they have to continue to do. I mean I know that people in the Lakers organization feel like you know they don't want to forget. They don't want cow because we feel like he's forgotten. Obviously there is a big to a very big to perhaps one of the biggest to we've ever seen <hes> and so you know there's definitely only thought process out there for the Lakers that they want cow Kouzmin to feel involved feel needed and he is going to be needed. I mean even if he doesn't start the season and he comes off as a six man. He's GonNa get plenty opportunities to start because a load management Lebron D. and he's he's going to be the guy that is going to have to carry them on so many nights because if you look at this roster does not allow young legs noman it cannot be overstated actually wrote about this for the athletic covering the Lakers for that site Kyle Kuzma and his own right may be the most it's important guy on this team his development if he can really become not mad any Davis gets hurt knock on wood. You know but I mean like you know if Lebron A._D.. Stay healthy. You know what that is. You know who they are and the way that they'll play together. I think make sense like those are two guys that their skill sets a pretty complementary and you know if Boogie if Boogie can you know start returning back to form then all of a sudden you've got the steel of the offseason but there's a lot of IFS with that with Kuzma that development so much of that is just in his own hands like you know how how seriously does he take the idea of becoming you know next level as a defender. How seriously does he take becoming next level as a playmaker? We know he can do the scoring like heat. We know that he can be that proverbial third option as a score he I mean he can be a twenty point tonight guy but can he be third option as a player for a championship team like that's really the question with Kuzma it has to be I mean I think you heard me at the press conference possess a D. and asks Vogel about it and Vogel mentioned you know as basically going to come down to <hes> Kouzmin showing that he can be all around player because defensively he has to be able to stay on the floor but I think coups has to be that third guy. This is what we were talking about earlier about waiting on Kawhi Leonard if they didn't wait on lender we'll never know what would have happened on that Sunday but if they had gone de Ngelo Russell well you know what then coups becomes. Maybe the fourth guy by keeping Kyle Kuzma and that allowed them to Kinda have to wait to be able to wait on quite Leonard and know that they still have a guy that could be the third option. There's no question I mean the luxury and flexibility they had salary wise because coups mma only makes you know about two million next season like that's something you can't count on at that price point and as young as Kuzma is you know his inexperienced in the league deal to look at him as a as a legit third guy that allowed the Lakers a lot of confidence like you said to sit on their hands during this period with Kawhi Leonard honored and not panic Vogel said he says it a bunch of the beat writers afterwards I asked him about coups again and he said the one thing he's noticed about coups right off the bat and he feels really good about it doesn't worry about is that some of the young players in the League today don't have that motor. His like coups is a worker. Yes you can see it in the war just practicing on the court. He's a worker that works all the time and he goes when you have that. I don't have to worry about no absolutely however kouzmines third year shakes out. It's if it doesn't work out. It's not going to be for lack of effort. That guy really does put it in. There's a reason that Kobe has gravitated towards them. I think he respects the work ethic all right coming up next two of the I mean <hes> excuse me to who rings and the dumbest thief you're going to see in quite some time Sodano show Andy Cabinets aome Yonder Soak in four Sodano and before we get to to Super Bowl rings and a really dumb thief thief Daniel and Artesia has thoughts on Koa Leonard Lakers. How're you doing yes sir? I'm doing good. Thank you for taking. Forgive me a chance here. I just wanted to say that <hes> everyone had wandered why wilander was taking so long to side with the team were quite sick so long because he had no interest in the Lakers and that because he was too busy looking for a second all star to begin with and it proves that he didn't WanNa play with Lebron with abroad James and Anthony Davis and either way it goes Lakers with thirty two million dollars. They didn't have enough money for a second all-star. The only had enough for one and they were hoping that it will be a wild Leonard and last point <hes> Jalen rose are maybe came on T._v.. Maybe like a couple of weeks ago. Jalen Rose said that Kawhi Leonard spent two or three days going after Paul George so the Lakers lost out on why later for at least two or three days if not more than that so quiet landed plate the Lakers because he he was billy literal for that second all start at the Lakers could not even afford thank you appreciate the phone call their Daniel. I mean the problem with that though is they wouldn't have needed to get another all star with Paul George because they already have Lebron. Anthony Davis like they're not looking to build is selling point point for the Lakers. If we already have to write you get more join our two which are two of the top six players. You know. It really just gets back to that question of how how sincerely if at all did Kawai want to be a Laker I mean it's obvious his first choice was the clippers I mean that's just clear but where were the Lakers in that packing order where they second were they third. You know how strong third choice where they were. They choice at all like you know were. They were the Lakers a team team. That were his third choice but he would have gone. If the clippers couldn't get the guy that he wanted at the end of the day he just didn't feel I go back to Toronto or the the Lakers just an opportunity something out there in front of them. That would be powerful enough. Enough to get the clippers to do what he wanted like did the Lakers represent an option or threat. You can ask him that next Wednesday. It has press conference that that's going to be really interesting like his explanation if at all of his thought process throughout all this because I had been this mysterious you know they're the Taiwan even go there won't go there but just how much you can get out of that guy about his thought process and everything that was going one on during that free agency period. It's going to be fascinated or how much Paul George Actually reveals you know how much we learn from Paul Georgia's comments because he he tends to actually be pretty open. He's pretty candid. He's going to be the gotTA talks. It's is GonNa be him dock and Pat Beverley mantras. You know what's funny to is like when they eventually go back and do the thirty for thirty or the oral history of this part of the Lakers franchise like the you know the last last couple years and then the next few years down the Road Paul George is going to be a central character like Paul. George has ended up a pivotal part of recent LAKER history because the summer that they got Lebron they thought it was going going to be Lebron and Paul George. They thought they had Paul George in the bag and then you know Paul George I mean recent N._B._A.. History actually Paul George is going to be a central figure. It's crazy. It's crazy when you think about it because Paul George you now. He's a great player but the way you talk about him and and if you look at it if you take a step away and maybe we look at it from several years back if feels like both L._A.. Teams were acting like Paul. George was like a top three player player in the league well. He played like one last year for awhile. I mean he was in that M._v._p.. Conversation there there was a period where Paul George was the best way player in the League because he was available more than Kawhi Leonard if nothing else Lebron so ended up with Anthony Davis so that's pretty good oh yeah I mean not crying for the Lakers. The Lakers came out of this thing particularly once they were scrambling pretty well. It's just it's just going to be a fascinating questions. We learn more and more about this. If the Lakers Brian this all started because Brian Wind Horse and the latest episode of the Hoop Collective <hes> e._S._p._N.. podcast said that he was hearing from the Lakers side that they feel like they may have been played by Kawhi Leonard. If that turns out the case to the issue isn't Kawhi Leonard. It's ethics or anything like that. You know these negotiations there cutthroat the N._B._A.. CUTTHROAT league teams can be cutthroat towards players. The real question is how did it ended up happening. Like how do the Lakers end up believing that they had an opportunity that they didn't have if that was the case talking about why yeah like that's ultimately simple quiet people tell the Lakers hey it's you'd raptors and clippers sure but interested in we wanna meet with you three team right but but all we had heard into like a week before free agency that co I had no interest in the Lakers at all like the Lakers were not appealing to him for a variety of reasons then all of a sudden that changes the Lakers have to be able to do some soul-searching and you know thinking back and also have just been quite being secretive about his plans along it could have been I mean it could have been all of a sudden the opportunity opens up because they have more cap space than Co.. I would've thought before it also could have been they got anthony. Davis should could have been the Bhagat Anthony Davis Bruce Davis about two two weeks before agency yes but at the same time Anthony Davis all of a sudden being a Laker and the Lakers having all the sudden more cap space than it seemed like could also make Kawhi Leonard and the Lakers be more of a believable threat also you can leverage that Moore also you know from what we'd heard. Lebron was working behind the scenes well before that into Lebron again to Kawais head and and maybe he did just that but it also I mean it's just it's they're all these different factors that ended up happening where on one hand it could make it more believable that co I would want to be a Laker or on the other hand you have all these these different things playing out where the Lakers can be used as much more of a believable bluff and that's ultimately what the Lakers going to have to figure out if they do have concerns that they were getting played all right coming up next I will get to it now to Super Bowl rings and a really really dumb thief E._S._p._N.. You love football. You Love The beach you love rum. Well then this is for you when you hear Mason in the five o'clock hour coming up say aloha rambling good luck and say Mahalo later during our during today today again the five o'clock be caller number seven eight seven seven seven ten E._S._p._N.. And you will qualify for the Rams Hawaii fly away the trip is going to include two tickets to rams cowboys on August Seventeenth roundtrip airfare four nights hotel accommodations and a private tour of the law rum distillery. Thanks to our friends at claw landing resort at Poipu and he's Kalala Rome company creators of the single batch world-class Hawaiian Rum's taste the aloha enjoy responsibly possibly in it is really good from. I'm not a wrong guy on but it's really really tasty. I'm sure are you have you been to Kobe doesn't quite right <hes> no. I have not been to Honolulu but I've never been to quite. I've been to every island and I can never ever get enough Hawaii. It's pretty awesome I if you end up again in this is going to be coming up in the five o'clock hour to qualify. This is one hell of a trip to win. There's going to be a lot of fun. I mean what what trump isn't good any trip to why he's good. That's true but this one in particular. You got a lot going on you. Get to see the rams you get the tour of the claw rum distillery so it's a lot of fun so be listened up again in the five o'clock hour. So do you remember mark. May they offensive. Well yeah I I grew up in D._C.. A huge Washington redskins fan right so he and he was for awhile with E._S._p._N.. He was part of the Super Bowl teams with redskins. He had two of his super bowl to Subaru rings stolen now well. There's there's a happy ending into this a happy but dumb ending but happy ending the thief who stole the Rings try to pawn them and the pawn shop that said dumb thief went to happen to be a shop featured on pawn on stars. I Love Pawn Stars so this guy what you mean. The ponzi been there so this I mean this is the last by the way it's way smaller than you think it really. Oh Yeah like you see on T._v.. And you think man is huge and you walk in and it's just like so small cameras ten pounds. I mean it doesn't inanimate objects as well as people but like this is the last place you WanNa be going to try to sell stolen. merch is a pawnshop from from place so he was already in Vegas or did he is in Arizona. According to Tempe Police the dude stole the rings in Arizona then went to Las Vegas to pawn them at the ponds he he stole also several Michael Kors watches for Mark May I. I don't know if mark may had his house. burglarize or of stuff was in storage and got taken however this ended up happening. This guy went to the pond storm Pawn Stars Shop. You're listening Caspian Los Angeles and and because this is a place that is on the up and up that you know is going to immediately recognize okay well if you watch. Do you watch the show. I do not okay well. There's one guy on the show. His name is Charlie and he tends to make bad deals because he's not I guess yes you know he's not the brightest of the guys at the pond shots so I guess he didn't. He wasn't selling his chummy well at least if nothing else they're an honest pawn shop because there are plenty of pawnshops that you know they're the place you go. When you've got stolen merch you WANNA be able to eighty once? No questions asked this is not the Plano which leads you to believe. This guy is a really dumb thief because if you're a good thief you've got good fences. You know the places this is to go with your stolen merch. This guy's an idiot like I mean especially with Super Bowl rings. I mean like these are going to be rings that are easily identify identifiable back to the source like you gotTa know what you're doing aiming to sell off stolen stolen dot that there wasn't some way like you know. He just said Hey I I bought these rings. I got him an auction and I'm trying to pawn them and he wasn't counting on. You know I'm sure there's some sort of legal thing that you put into the computer and everything and all of a sudden. There's been stolen again. If you're a good thief could see when he was thinking maybe right that he went and he's just like you. When you watch that show okay people come with stuff that once belonged to someone famous all the time and they say these things like this yard sale and I just bought it and I didn't know what having any value in this whole time and I just want to see what you know like he'll say I would think though it's super bowl rings like if nothing else you want fake certification these are it's very specific? Items that again are going to be easy to trace back to the original. Wait for that episode. So you really watch regularly. I know like now I'm in the ninety day. Fiance which is which is absolutely absolutely bonkers okay but now you know when when when I watched because you also kind of get a little history lesson sometimes and you know there's always a story behind every item. Now I in seeing this dumb thief. It got got me thinking about it has to be on video to it probably is totally unveil everybody. I think most people fantasize fantasize my ninety me the right word but imagine their life in a life of crime like if they were part because we watch movies and you know obviously criminality. finalities wrong but movies and T._v.. May criminality look exciting yeah and like I've always envisioned myself like if I were to go the route of route of crime a life of crime be wanted to things I'd either want to be something like pretty cool like George Clooney from Ocean's eleven yeah like something like that. We're or like an art thief Pierce Blah's. Yes like where you look cool doing your thievery or like Ocean's eleven. We're like really it's it's sort of victimless crimes like you know like you're mostly Ashley just ripping off either exceptionally wealthy. You know museums things like that like you know wealthy patrons of the arts or the case of Ocean's eleven. You're ripping off a casino owner. WHO's a jerk like you know so that type of thing or I've always wanted to be a wheel man like I don't ever want to the bank robbery but I wanNA? Do you want to be the getaway driver. I WANNA be a wheel man so bad like like that movie baby driver. Yes like baby driver or the movie drive like I've always pictured myself as a wheel. I didn't think okay <hes> first of all. The whole thing of just stealing is just seems sway too stressful for me like when I look at the George Cleo Ocean's eleven. I'm just like I can't think up the stuff. This is ridiculous who sit there and thinks of the stuff and then tries to pull it all criminal criminal mastermind like meal and those are the people that do it Kevin Isky brothers sounds like a good that sounds like a good plot right there but but now they're most stressful job is the getaway driver but but from my perspective I don't have it to be violent in the bank. I don't have to carry the gun. I don't WanNa make people feel unsafe like their life is being threatened putting everybody else's lives danger right now when you're is greater drivers me not when you're the type of driver like meal like I'm at that type learn you also the guy I've always thought this when I see these type of movies. I'm just like the COP can I cops can idea right away. He's the guy that gets not the other guys are in the car. No no because everyone's focusing on the guys that were in the bank like everyone's focusing on those guys is you've got the menaul chase see nobody saw the people in the bank and net like now you're in the chase and everybody sees the driver except on the driver that gets away are you weren't would you wear a mask which you wear some sort of. I don't need one on that good so you're not going to be like point break. You're not gonNA wear like you know what I mean. I'm might do that just because I'm a big point break fan by the way I've never understood. This was watching old old old school. The other day the bank robbers who wear the pantyhose over the head. You can see their face breath yeah but what is the purpose of what it's like their face that's kind of pulled down you were at a bank and you got in your in the bank and there was a robbery okay and the bank robbers were wearing that pantyhose. Would you not be able to I._D.. them not maybe not accurately. I mean like it's hard hard enough. You always see sketch artists like you look at the picturing that could be anybody. I don't know I can clearly says welfare. What would be your life a crime my life a crime? Oh Man I mike and Curtis you guys think about this too. If you were to go into your life of crime like I was saying before there were eye to go into it. I've always pictured myself either some type of like high class thief like an elaborate scheme thief like George Clooney Notions Eleven Pierce Brosnan in Thomas Crown Affairs and our high art thief or I'd want to be a wheel man. I'd WanNa be the like the mafia guy loss yes early. You know the the guy who like like you ever see the movie with Tom Cruise where he's got the silver hair. Oh Oh collateral yeah collateral member the guy he goes to shoot that Crean Guy in the Korean club and he's surrounded by like all those dudes like all the guns at the club. I want to be that guy. I don't WanNa die. I want to be that guy soul my tire Mitre Nursing Mike this excited it could be a runner back in the sixties and seventies unlike Harlem with the mobsters and everybody run numbers for all those mob guys on to be amazing because I'll no contact with all those dudes you know my or how about this. I'd like to be not not as brutally mean as he was but Nino Brown for new Jack City. It's hard to be that it's hard to be the Nice guy version. I was thinking a nice pimp to go to have a new Jack City theme Party where Everyone Hanes have one you should. Where do you find a chain jump rope? Though oh you can find that come on Halloween stores crew we need to somebody's at rocket by baby. We're going to be like Christopher Williams. Yeah Guy Needs a nice. He was a nice Bagai in that movie. Everybody point in that meeting when win. Nino Brown is jumping rope with a chain. Everyone in that meaning should've no okay. This is not going to end well. Buddy is going to get that around there. Brown is jumping rope with a chain. He is not in a good mood right so you would have to be Nino though right since it's show party you're brother's girlfriend keeper Nick Yes. No you know but I could still dress up like flavor Flav or something like that. He was in the movie or I could do Russell Long. He was in the movie Chris Rock Right Right Right yeah. There's a lot of characters curtis as Chris Rock dirty clothes and I'll have like a crack pipe and as long as you don't come in like when you were in the building and you're not wearing anything remember where they were all the people that scene yeah remember remember the guy they kicked that room occupied with you know what I mean the pretty girls but again you cannot be a nice guy version of Nino Brown like now only goes one way. There's gotTa be a nice or he presented himself as Robin Hood and really wasn't yes no curtis. What's your life a crime? I I'm so non-confrontational I would be like hacker guide on the line of fire kind of thing hacker guys the way to go these days it really is is actually I mean it's really not getting caught because like you know the stuff of the street level. That's gone now. That's gone guy. There's a lot of stress because at any point you have to be ready to torch the entire room and having escape route true because as soon as the F._B._i.. Comes down you. It's like it's over like like Maryland. Remember that movie with Gene Hackman and Will Smith Oh enemy of the state and I mean the state memory that whole compounds any blew up the whole compound just because like one dude you can't be ready for Curtis and I don't know your lifestyle well enough to say whether or not you ready for this but you gotta be ready to go off the grid like are you ready to go ahead already. How I know social life whatsoever? He's his way for the right contact to literally do it but I noticed that most of our crimes that we've mentioned as all fad time so we're not state penitentiary. We're looking for fed time you know if we get caught. We doing one hundred percent of our time so kids outta mind but but I will say I'm GonNa give us all well three of the four of us not curtis but three or four of US credit that none of us worst out with white collar crime like where you're going to scare slap on the wrestling we all went hard. We get our hands dirty dirty hacking for example like hacking. There's some consider it's getting big because there's there's that guy that act like playstation Yahoo. They're putting their getting gears. Put on Curtis is beyond the face APP with Russia. Are you going to sell me out like that. By the way man there are a lot of people freaking out having base now with that discovery came out that it's a riot data mining. I picked it up and I deleted after an answer to it's too late. Yeah I mean no curtis has all anymore. Don't do anything with your phone related to mind. Curtis has all your they don't have my picture in there. I never download. Donna was smart to say that he use your work phone. I didn't I'm and does not that smart. Not Bright Sodano coming come to bristol looking for all right coming up. Colli Leonard is involved with a lawsuit against his former shoe company Nike Anky over use of the claw logo says he created and that Nike is continuing to us. We're going to break that down with Nick Dipaolo. He is a sneaker expert for E._S._P._N.. And he is coming up next E._S._P._N.. L._A. Sodano show Andy Kim Nazi omb on Yom Sook in force George and before we bring on nick the Paula. He's a senior writer E._S._P._N.. Also with Nice kicks he is a sneaker expert or and talk about this lawsuit going back and forth between Kawhi Leonard and Nike I o Curtis an apology. He pointed out during the break that in fact there are now some high profile cases of hackers getting serious time in real presence white color of hacking one of the worst thing you could die us to think of as more of a white collar thing but I I'm absolutely wrong. Stand corrected Curtis joined me own and Mike we all chose criminality that could risk serious time Curtis's with us. He deserves his respect. My name exactly speaking of some respect on his neighbor. GonNa put them on Nick to Paula Against Senior Writer E._S._p._N.. Also with Nice kicks. How are you meant great? Thanks very cool have neck to begin nick. Can you just breakdown for the people who aren't aware exactly how this lawsuit be between Leonard and Nike began and where it stands right now with his countersuit yes so basically I mean coincide with Nike out of out of College in twenty eleven he had been with them all the way until twenty eighteen but back in two thousand fourteen they basically worked on a logo together <hes> that became known as the Clo- though <hes> and then you know just last fall he actually left's Jordan brand and went to new balance and so it kind of all. All started around that time because his original was take the logo with him to new balance <hes> which Nike basically put a stop on <hes> just as they often do in terms of protecting logos. We've had a similar situation with Roger Federer he nike for Uniqlo Oh and they did the same thing and basically let him take the signature logo either so we've seen it before and I'm miserable because of it nick because I'm Fed fan nick. Let me ask you something with the whole new balance thing now now. He's with the clippers. How do you think this impacts new balance and are they going to be? Obviously you know they've always been a big player in the running market and as far as comfort and everything but are they going to be a bigger player now as far as basketball sneakers you think because he's in Los Angeles are they gonna are they. Are they carrying up toward that well. I always say that you know the markets. Don't necessarily matter these days too much <hes> winning matters most but if or in L._A. or New York than those those are the two markets that can still take things over the atop so <hes> the fact that he did win finals M._V._p.. In Toronto I mean you couldn't have asked for a better situation for the last year but <hes> I think the clippers they're going to happen fan base. They're going to have as that team grows like I don't see any way that's not going to be huge for them. The the thing that tough I mean as I'm sure you guys know Nike has about sixty seven percent of the league wearing their shoes about ninety percent market share so cracking into basketball is is no small task but <hes> I think they're going to have some success early on just with how he's compliance clippers. They tried to get the claw logo right so yeah as I forget who exactly reported it early on but they basically as as you guys spent the last year year and a half planning out for this bitch and during in that window tried to actually acquire the rights of logo <hes> fix the thing that I wanna point out that's pretty crazy is <hes> Qui- basically did an interview with with George Keel <hes> who was the head writer at the time at night his kicks twist from two thousand fourteen when the interviews I unveiled and in the interview he says I give all the credits and Nike for refining it <hes> I'm no artist and he actually like kind of revealed that it was something that he gave a really rough sketch to and I took from there and and kind of refined the logo so <hes> as we saw this week that that quote was Kinda used as central evidence in the trial which Kinda crazy <hes> and I think you know something where yes he had the idea for the logo but but Nike really it kind of took the design from there under finds it talking with Nick Dipaolo. He's a senior writer with E._S._P._N.. He's also with Nice kicks. He's a sneaker expert from Nike's Perspective Nick. What's the point of hanging onto the claw logo when you're not gonNA have Kawhi I Leonard Yeah I mean usually the way they way they do it? Is they feel like they've put them marketing behind the logo and that they've you know launched a payroll around it and so they don't want guys to have access to the local to travel from brand brand <hes> wants the only cases ever was shack who owned the rights to his own logo so when he left Reebok's sables utilize it <hes> but it's it's a little bit of a petty move in the sense that you know obviously coys moved on to balance and they're just going to block him from using it <hes> <hes> but as a as a big corporation. I guess that's that's kind of the firmness. You have to have at times than <hes> we've. We've seen it on on several occasions where they've done that time and time again. Do you think <hes> I mean obviously it's hard to know exactly how this would have worked out but do you think that if Lebron if if Colli Leonard it ended up joining the Lakers Lebron could have just called up Nike and said given back his claw. That's a very possible scenario conspiracy theory around it <hes> well. Those are the best a couple. There's a couple of isn't sports marketing talk to talks to almost every day of the week. I'm sure so it could have been a much smoother assistant than the back and forth lawsuits. We're seeing so <hes>. I and I don't think that actually would have entered into any kind of like C._B._A.. You know you're tampering type stuff if they decided to just basically void the lawsuit and bland take so <hes>. It's a great what if scenario and thought that I've been asking around for sure nick. What do you think of the new Janas Kicks Ex? <hes> I think on issue is awesome. I mean in terms of terms of debut shoes. I mean you've obviously Jordan Jordan one penny hardaway and then Allen Iverson of your question. I think you honest might be up in that top five really for a first crack yeah I'm really I think it's a it's also choose. <hes> the coming to America color way in particular is awesome tells his story <hes> and then he's going to be wearing it through the CBA games here and into the next season so <hes> he's only the twenty second guy to have your shoe with Nike Basketball and I think it's one of the better debuts that we've seen so's nick from your perspective. We're talking Nick Dipaolo Senior E._S._p._N.. Senior writer with E._S._P._N.. Is With Nice kicks. What makes a great sneaker like visually aesthetically because as somebody who's not entrenched in that culture most of them look ugly to me yeah kind of need need like lightning in a bottle across three things? If you'd the player flared replay in great <hes> you need the shooter kind of maybe have a technology or something unique to it that that kind of stands out as compared to the other shoes Nike has six signature shoe so the honest she with that big verse solution it gives it a real unique look <hes> and then I think the colors kind of the stories from there you know so much of the sneakers that have taken off whether it's coyote or Damian Lillard with the Dita's even some of this. It's usually comes down to the themes in the story that these guys table to get out there through their shoes. Those are the things that kids can really kind of latch onto all along with nick. I think it's ass Lonzo this when I saw him last weekend but what's the deal with him. Is he going to wear Nike the season. is He staying with big baller. What's GonNa do shoe-wise? You should've asked to understanding right question so basically as we all know big baller grandees unfortunately kind of <hes> you know dissolved a little bit there and he's basically partying. Ah there <hes> he's a shoe free agent right now. He's going to be one of the more sought after guys as the fall comes around <hes> heading into the season especially with I mean even though he's no longer on the Lakers I mean that ten them with John could be super exciting. We'll see exactly who comes around but I feel like it's going to lead and that's probably where he's going into blasting my bad for not asking big baller brand. Do you think survive without Lonzo's that type of client. I mean they still have the M._b.. One available offered three hundred ninety five dollars which is Lamello shoe <hes> but at this point. I don't think you know the the second Lonzo shoot never actually delivered <hes> and won't at this point as mine. When you say never delivered a really quickly nick do me like it didn't catch on her? It literally never delivered to anybody. People pay the that so that the original the bay for she was four hundred ninety five dollars sold as preorder and there was a six eight months delay before they arrive <hes> the second shoe soles this fall for only say only but relatively only two hundred dollars <hes> and it was during the season that the basically ended unraveled and so that shoe was never never physically delivered to the buyers and they're all waiting around her response <hes> so so off of that. I don't really see how how the brand could could bounce back. <hes> especially without Lonzo is the whole genesis up the brand to begin with as as high as I am on Bell long-term <hes>. I think it's going to be pretty tough and it's it's fortunate because I always loved the concept and <hes> Lavar is obviously a big personality but I always thought ownership standpoint. It was a really intriguing concept so it's it's unfortunate how it all played out and then last question for Nick. How do you think this ends up <hes> shaken out between quiet nike the resolution resolution unfortunately and I'm always a pro pro player Guy <hes> I don't see any way that that co I will retain ownership on this although situation <hes> just some statements he and the past about how Nike really really refined in the logo and if you see the side by side of the two I mean they're they're pretty far off <hes> so I would expect Nike to to retain it which means they would just do nothing with it and it would just become a doormat logo that <hes> is on some past products going for hey nick question for me? <hes> what's the latest on Zion and who he's GonNa sign with and <hes> maybe how big of a shoe deal could he get for somebody just coming in the League comparative to like. Maybe the last big guy I it would've been what Lebron yes I mean. Lebron was seven years and eighty seven million in case was seven years and sixty and he took ten million less to sign with Nike Adidas so it could have been seventy. <hes> Xilin situations been dragging out a a and it's something we've never seen before words drags out past Summer League <hes> basically he's going through a separate lawsuit with <hes> gene afford who was the marketing agency originally signed with <hes> and so that's gotta get resolved I which has been the reason for this delay and then they'll go through and decide on a brand <hes> all brand pitches have been done and offers role there. He's GONNA end up getting ridiculous deal. That's around eight to ten million a year at least <hes> so the numbers are are GonNa be there but he's he's basically got <unk> marking lawsuits. I and that's been the reason that guy's luck R._J.. Barrett came reddish a bunch of others have all been held up because of that Nick Polisena writer for E._S._p._N.. Also with Nice kicks appreciate the time man. Thank you you all right. Thank those people waiting around for the three hundred ninety five dollars from big baller brand. You're never seen that ain't coming back. That's too bad you know because I I kind of I mean I didn't like the prices for sure where I thought it should have been lower but I liked the idea the romanticism starting up your own brand and really kind of carrying it out of nowhere you know I mean I I remember my first season going to arenas and seeing kids in big baller brand.

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This Is The Zodiac Speaking...

That’s Strange

1:21:59 hr | 6 months ago

This Is The Zodiac Speaking...

"This is the zodiac speaking. I like killing people because it is so fun. It's more fun. Them killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal to kill something as the most thrilling even better than getting iraq's off with the girl the best part of it. So when i die will be reborn in paradise and all that i have killed. Become my sleeves. I will not give you my name because try to slow down or stop by collecting of slaves from afterlife a strange than in the internet. Uncovering anything with thinking is weird. Strange controversial or makes you think i'm gonna be host. Alex joins always with chad and ryan. Today's episode we're taking you back to the bay area in the late nineteen sixties as we break down the infamous odia killer and just before we get into everything we just wanted to remind you once again to head over to that strange dot net to finally everything including oliver social media different places. You can listen to us and you can find links to our facebook group. That we started called that strange We really hope you guys join us there. It's a lot of fun and we hope to see around and can't wait to connect with you guys more. We did our hoodie. drop in. That was awesome to all you guys that ordered hope you like them and thank you so much because it supports our show and we got t shirts. they're little cheaper same high quality but less expensive. Let me be clear. So you can find all that information on our facebook or if you just go straight to that strange dot net. We'll have links to the preorder form that you can fill out or can just like messages. Serve whatever you want to do. On december twentieth nineteen sixty. Eight betty lou johnson and david faraday had planned on going to a christmas concert at hogan. High school just three blocks from the jetsons house. The couple instead visited a local restaurant before driving to lake. Herman road in benicia california faraday parked his mother's rambler in a gravel. Turn out which was well known as a lovers lane. The teens were both supposed to be home by eleven that night however they would really never make it home from that lovers lane alive so shortly after eleven pm on that. Same nights della burgess. I hope i'm saying that right. A nearby neighbor discovered the couple's bodies in the well known lovers lane. I'm just gonna say it burgess. I think it's boards borghese. No i think. I'm just going to go with boards color. Stella be cell abi good old stella be walking. Her dog finds dead bodies. Okay so that sounds like a great idea for a cartoon so the solano county sheriff's department investigated the murders faraday was shot once in the head at point blank range in died within minutes. Jensen was shot. Five times in the back and killed killed instantly. The weapon used in the murder was twenty two caliber semiautomatic pistol. The ammunition was winchester western. Super copper coated long rifle. Put a pin in that for later. So according to the police report the victims were approached by the suspect while they were still in faraday as mother's station wagon shots were fired into the vehicle in an apparent effort to force them out of the rambler fair day was shot as he emerged from the vehicle while johnson was shot as she fled. Her body was found twenty feet. Twenty eight feet from the rambler. Now this part. I don't know man. I have daughters but this part really really got to. This was jensen's first date. She was allowed out on and obviously the crime shocked to the family and the communities and neither family could really come up with an explanation of why somebody wanted to kill these two teenagers so i don't alex i know you have yet. That's pretty. I mean i know you have the hotter and that's like that's like the most horrifying thing you can think of like you you probably you know. It's probably been months that she's asking you to go out on a date and you're like no. Yeah it's just brutal. The investigation into the crime developed no leads. No one would know it at the time but this was the beginning of a vicious murderer who would torment the bay area and surrounding communities while no one was aware at the time the murders of faraday and jensen would be the first to widely at be attributed to the zodiac a serial killer who would torment northern california with his vicious murders and love for taunting the police and the media the zodiac killer. Would go on to become one of the most infamous serial killers in the united states history but the murders of faraday. Jensen were only the beginning just before midnight on july fourth nineteen. Sixty-nine darlene fair and michael maggio drove into the blues. Blue rock springs park in vallejo only four miles from the murder site at lake. Herman road while the couple sat in fairness car a second vehicle drove into the parking lot parked alongside them. The second vehicle almost immediately pulled back out of the park turning just ten minutes later the same vehicle parked behind the couple. The driver of the second car exited and proceeded to walk up to the passenger's side of fairness car carrying a flashlight and a nine millimeter. Luger killer shine the light into the victims. I before shooting at them five times. So i wanna stop quickly as we're talking about this. You guys have both seen the zodiac movie. Yup guy just literally. I'm one hundred percent mean serious. I literally finished two minutes before us. Yeah yeah so. This is the first murder that sean in the movie. And and it's the first one. And i think that's for a reason and i don't know if you were going to say this or not so i apologize but I think it's because it's the only one we really know about because one of them survives which is crazy right. Yeah i think that has a big big part in it because the other one i think he claims later on that he did it. The first one that we talked about. But that's really that's really it. you know. As far as the evidence goes it's just heat. Now he does call out specifics on the case that only the police and him would have known so i think that pretty much ties it together. I was curious to why they didn't show the first one in the movie. I don't know if the if you nailed it there. That's why. But that's what i think and the only reason i think that and i think that if you if you remember some through lines in the movie because i like it's all fresh on my brain so i think that they probably went with this one because this is also not to spoil anything for anybody. But we're probably going to split some things that happened in the movie anyway because it's all based on a real story but part the became out like thirteen years ago. If you haven't seen it by now. I think spoilers are good right exactly and if you haven't seen it by now you're probably not going to see it. So that's okay but a lot of what they used to tie. Arthur leigh allen to it later in the movie has to do with the fact that darlene knew him which is a through line in the movie that that's like where the evidence points in it also happens to be the first murder they show. I feel like that's part of that. Probably has a good good assessment there for sure. I think that it's as i was like going researching all this stuff. I think they did a really good job with the movie you know. There's there's little things here near that that are not true. It's a great movie even like little things like when the car parks behind them the first time in real life he actually parked right next to him. This is a little stuff like that. Which which to me. I always wondered. Why do that movies. Like i get that like creative. Freedom is a thing but when you're doing a real case you think you would get like little stuff like that right. Just my opinion. Both victims were hit and several bullets passed through michael and into darlene. The killer then walked away from the car but after hearing the male victims still moaning he returned and shot both victims twice before driving away at twelve. Forty am on july fifth. A man called the vallejo police department to report and claim responsibility for the attack. The caller also took credit for the murders of jensen and faraday over six months. Earlier police were able to trace a phone call to a booth at a nearby gas station phone booth at a nearby gas station. Darlene was pronounced dead at the hospital. However michael survive the attack. Despite being shot in the face neck and chest michael describes his attacker as a twenty six to thirty year old hundred and ninety five pound to two hundred pound five foot eight inches tall white male with light brown curly hair. So what do you think ryan. I think that this is what it's worth pointing out that his his claim to the the earlier murders In this particular instance the claim to those heat all he said in the call was basically. Oh yeah and. I killed those two up by lake up by the the lake earlier last year. And it's like okay. Well we know what you're referring to but also it was widely reported you know and so while we while. We're pretty sure that he did that. Because it's the same exact m o. I've always personally wondered if he was because in all reality and we'll get to it. There's a lot of things. He claims that. I mean almost immediately. Were taken away as even possibilities that he could have done so like the thing. I've always wondered about this is was that his inspiration for doing this one and he actually didn't do it. I've always wondered that. Yeah that's not. That's not a good at bat assessment. I think that when we get a little further end and i'll read out his first letter. It's not in our outline here. But i'll pull it up. He does pull out some specifics on that that first case in one of them spoiler alert is the thing i put a pin in earlier. He calls out the exact name of the brand of ammunition. I don't think that was reported in the news so normally stuff like that's not reported in the news right right sure. No that's very true. And i mean even if it was i think the thing that has always stuck in my brain is that we've talked about this before where like there. There's like the psychology of wia killer. Does what they do and how they do it. And the thing that's always of stuck with me is out of all of these. I'm pretty sure out of all of these. Correct me. If i'm wrong because i might. I might be forgetting something. All of the lovers lane. Murders the ones where he killed two people at one time or tried to kill teepee at one time the first murder that he says he did faraday jensen for for both of those people that he tried to that he tried to kill he actually he actually did kill him but for all the rest of them one of them was left alive which it just seems odd that he would be successful in the first the first time which is his first time you know apparently and that's usually the one where they screw up the most and then he screws up in every subsequent one excluding stein which you know it's just it just seemed weird to me right yeah i think i think you're right with that but at the same time it's it's not for lack of trying you know what i mean he. He tried to murder these people. It's not like he screwed up. Royally that i i mean we said earlier that michael was shot in the face neck and chest so i think very true. I think the the the weird thing about it is that it always released with the two people that survive. It's the males so it's almost like he. He gets so focused on killing the women. Maybe that's very true. Yeah focus on killing the women that he just kinda you know forgets about killing the other person there so i i don't know if that's maybe a A thing to call him out like his. Emo style is that he's got some sort of vendetta against women or if it's just you guys think that are just going to say. Do you guys think that there's a possibility. Also that it wasn't a lack of or or an site or something like that that he actually wanted someone to be alive on purpose because he wanted somebody to tell about his because because he's he's psychotic. I mean you. There's tons of things that i'm sure we'll get into a later about different things. He requested and things that he really You know he thought of himself extremely highly and he thought that he was extremely intelligent and all this stuff and they he could get away with it and obviously you. Don't he kind of debt you know he did and But part of that. I'm wondering was was it so that way somebody could could say this is. This is the guy this is what he looked like. That's what that way it would be. You know people would want to catch him more and the game would be more challenging for him at that point almost like like leaving someone to tell the story right like that. That does accents. Yeah i get that. I think that you're onto something there but man did he. He really did try to kill the kill. The guys i mean he. He used a lot of force and it just it. It seems like maybe that's part of it and then also part of it is just that he did focus too much on the women. I think it was probably both. I think you're right though. Yeah i think. I think you're right to alex. I think that out of every serial killer. This one seems to have the most need for attention. Would you guys agree with that. Out of every everyone that we know so far. He's he's the only one that really put himself out there to get caught in and it's kind of shocking that he put himself so much out there that he didn't get caught and i think that that plays into your hand where you say that he wants somebody to tell the story. He wants somebody to remember his face because it is a game to him. He wants to outsmart the police and he wants to make them look like idiots. So you got you got you know a guy saying exactly what i look like and you still can't catch me. I think you're right on that. That's a that's a good assessment. I think the only other killer that had like a similar ethos and the way that he approached things was probably timothy mcveigh but obviously a totally different approach right. Yep yep but bomber kinda to true. Yes absolutely on august first of nineteen. Sixty-nine three letters were received by the vallejo times. Herald the san francisco chronicle and the san francisco examiner. The letters took credit for the shooting at lake. Herman road and blue rock springs. Each of the letters included a third of the four hundred eight symbol cryptogram which the killer later claimed would actually reveal his identity. The killer made the demand that they be printed on the front page or he would continue his vicious crimes. The chronicle would go on to publish. Its third of the cipher on page four in the next day's edition in an article printed alongside the code. It had a quote from the vallejo police chief and he proceeded to say that he was not satisfied enough to say that the letter was written by the killer requested a second letter with more facts to prove his claims. So let's read the first letter and the letters are almost identical. That were sent to all three of the news things. I'm going to just pick the first one here. Which is the san francisco. Chronicle one it says dear editor. This is the murder of the two teenagers last christmas at lake. Herman in the girl on the on the fourth of july near the golf course in vallejo to prove i killed them. I shall state some facts. Which only i in the police now christmas now. I do want to point out here both times that he spells christmas. He spells it. Christ mass with two ss at the end i put a pin in that are later nat for later for sure so christmas brand name of anna ammo is super x so you can remove that pin that we put in there earlier because he calls out the ama- ten shots were fired. The boy was on his back with his feet to the car. The girl was on her right side. Feet to the west fourth july girl was wearing at patterns slacks. The boy was shot in the knee. Brand name of ammo was a western. So that is the cipher that was sent to earn decipher. I'm sorry i apologize. The letter that was set along with a third of the cipher. Each of the three different news stations. So like ryan said earlier. This is the outside of the phone call. He reported the second murderer. This is now. He's calling out that first murder we talked about again and he's being a little bit more specific. So what do you guys think about that. I'm wondering and i'm trying. I was trying to find it. But i'm wondering if that was ever actually published or if that is definitely something where he only he and the police were the. I looked man i could not. I mean we're talking about. We're talking about articles that were printed in this in in the late sixties. From what i could tell it was printed so you can take that for what it is. Maybe it was at some point in like a local newspaper local magazine or anything at the time it could have been printed and he pulled it off there but then also the things that he said were just. I mean they were. They were extremely specific. And you're not gonna. You're not going to say that somebody was facing this certain direction and in these certain things were were a part of it. When you know you're not going to because the families still mourning and things like that like it's it would be inappropriate to really paint that picture in that way. i think. yeah. I think you're right there. I think he does call out some very specific aspects of the crime. most importantly maybe the ammo is printed. And you can. You can almost say that the number of shots might have been printed to it might have said so and so got shot three times and so got shot you know. Whatever but the the direction that they're laying. I don't know that that would have ever been printed in in any any paper. I don't know what the reason would be behind them doing that. You know what i mean. Why why would you print are. Why would you share by. Ammo is used because then if somebody wants to commit a murder. They're going to be like. Oh i'm gonna use this exact am ammo and they're going to think think it was. This guys have now the other thing that kind of strikes me about this and it didn't. It didn't actually occur to me until this exact moment. This is the exact type of language. Wording that they would use in a police report. I wonder if he had the police report to like even if he did whether he did or not. I wonder if he wrote it from the police report. Because this is like this is how police talk. This is how they not things like her feet. Were facing to the west. Like that is just kind of a weird. You're randomly no. Yeah that's a good point for sure. I didn't even think about that. Yeah yeah it's very interesting and and maybe back then it people were a little bit better with the stuff. But i wouldn't be able to tell what direction the person i know. He was just facing. You know what. I mean. No way and and i feel like and i don't know maybe this is just me but the zodiac has always struck me as an unorganized killer. Like like he had a he had a thing he had a thing he wanted to do. But it always felt like his killings were were a little bit manic to a certain extent like he planned it to a point but then after that it just all went out the window and it just it strikes me as something that he wouldn't have taken the time to notice. We're taking the time to pull out a compass and find out the direction that he was pointing the people. It doesn't seem like something he would have known. Yeah yeah it's it's definitely bizarre but the police report thing. That's pretty interesting. So but how would he get a hold of. the police. report is the question. That's that's the thing. Vallejo is a very very very small town right like they cover this in the movie. I've read about it a little bit since. Then it's it's not so much but it's within the realm of possibility that you know. He could frankly he could've walked in and seen it on a table like there is some there are some people that think that that think that he like the whoever the zodiac killer was or or is or whoever. There are some people that think that you know he was. He was a person who was always in trouble with the law. Which is why. Some of the letters stopped for periods of time. And and all that. So what if he was the what if he was actually arrested for something and he saw the report sitting on a desk. It wasn't a big yeah. I don't know it's just that's a good possible. Yeah yeah definitely. Vallejo is small. And i think i have. I have a. We'll we'll get we'll get to later. Let's move on here. We'll get to theories. I'm moving on so on august fourth. Another letter was received by the san francisco. Examiner with the salutation dear editor. This is the zodiac. Speaking and this is actually the first time that he uses that to identify himself the later. The letter proceeded to divulge information on the murderers that had not been released to the public confirming the killer's identity. The killer also taunted that if they crack the cipher they would have his identity. Now i'm not going to read this whole this whole second letter here because it's kinda long i'll just take some snippets from it so it says this is the zodiac speaking in answer to your asking for more details about the good times i had in vallejo i shall be happy to supply even more material by the way. Are the police having a good time with the code. If not tell them to cheer up when they crack it they will have me do so. He goes on to to say july fourth. I did not open the car door. The windows were rolled down already. The boy was originally sitting in the front seat. When i began firing when i fired the first shot at his head. He leapt backwards at the same time. Thus spoiling my aim he ended up in the back seat. Then on the floor in the back thrashing out very violently with his legs. That that's how. I shot him in the knee and he said that earlier in the first letter that he was shot in the which again could something that was reported. But this is now now that we're reading this. You guys change your mind. A little bit on the the the identity of the writer was he talking about the second murder or the the first one second. Okay so yeah. I always thought that this was definitely definitely him. I've always thought that of of all of the murders. I think that this one and will get to the other one that i think Which i kind of already mentioned but we'll get there. I think this one in one other one are like one hundred percent. There's no way it could be anybody but this guy who was writing these letters kind of thing so i definitely think this one's him for sure i agree with ryan. I mean this whole time. I thought that these letters. I mean i almost think it would be more difficult for a copycat to try to keep up with this code and i think that's one of the reasons why he did. It is obviously like like we said before a game to him but also this code is his and that gives him this certain Sense of like this is mine. And that's why he's so whether he did some of these are not that's why he's claiming all these other murders as well as because he feels like well they might as to him. He's thinking they're not going to catch me anyway. So why don't i just up. My you know up my credibility you know with all these other claims as well. And and i think that for the most part the ones that he's claiming in these letters i think that he did. Yeah let me Let me break down so for that. July fourth murder that we were just talking about he goes on to say the description of the man that called out the color of his vehicle which was a a witness that stated that his vehicle was brown and i would assume that the police knew that he nailed the description of the identity. Which is that for me. I think we're all in the same boat that he definitely did. The july fourth thing. i think. Definitely thing ryan's a little off on the christmas one. Here's here's what he has to say about the christmas one in that episode spelled incorrectly. The police were wondering how. I could shoot and hit victims in the dark. They did not openly state this but implied this by saying it was well lit. It was a well lit night. And i could see silhouettes on the horizon. Bullshit that separated by hills and trees. What i did do was tape. A small pencil flashlight to the barrel of my gun. If you notice the center of the beam of light if you aim it at the wall or a ceiling you will see a black dark spot at the center of the circle of the light about three to six inches across when tape to a gun. Barrel the bullet will strike exactly at the center of the black dot in the light. All i had to do was spray them as if they were as if it was a water hose. There was no need to use the gun sights. I was not happy to see that. I did not get coverage on the front page so there we go for the christmas one. He's being i again a little bit more specific however not as specific as the first one. Would you guys agree. I would definitely agree. Because there's no way to to directly. Say that this actually is how he did it or that. You know the like him saying that he taped a pencil flashlight. Which also spelled pencil incorrectly. This guy is funny. Yeah there's no way to prove that right right. The thing the thing about the zodiac letters is he is an absolutely horrible speller and i. It's actually kinda funny. And i think that might make the solving of the the the second cipher a little bit. More difficult or any cipher. Difficult if you if you're not spelling correctly right very true yes actually. I had never thought about that before. But the fact that he is such a bad speller. like you've gotta assume that he had typos or misspellings somewhere. And i wonder if that's why they couldn't because they didn't crack some of them right like they never got a few of them. Am i right about that. Yes so there's can you guys hear me. Yes yes so. There is two ciphers. The way they identify am is four zero eight which is the four hundred eight symbol cryptogram. That we're talking about right now with these letters came and then the second one is the one that's not. They can't crack and they've had they've had like cia. Nsa big people trying to crack the sing but we'll get to that a little bit later my theory on that the next day donald did you guys even realize that i like just had a catastrophic failure internet. No not at all. Okay at a stroke failure. Hey what was your tracks stole recording. Yeah okay. we're good okay. Good that's good and so the next day and we're we're going back to this first cipher here. That came with the letters to the to the papers the next day. Donald and bette harden of salinas. Is it selena's yes. California cracked the four hundred. Eight symbol cipher. It contained what we said a misspelled message in which the killer references the novel the most dangerous game and this is actually what you heard at the beginning of this episode this this Solve ciphers the exact same thing that we heard at the beginning even though zodiac promised cracking the cipher would reveal his identity. It did not. And that's not an i mean that's not in right no like no way. There's no way he would give up his identity like that like he's he's trying to toy with them like he's not going to be like my name's john like rice thought no come on. He wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have believed it if i were them. Receiving the letters in the first place that it would actually be in there. It doesn't make sense. And i don't know that they did believe it to be honest because i don't know that anybody could really believe it. But maybe at the time in the sixties. I don't know maybe but i think that looking back on it. Now there's like no way that he was going to put his name in that letter in that cipher rather while the killer of two previous unsolved murders had finally revealed himself. His identity remained a mystery with the solve and not revealing any details into the identity. The police were once again at a standstill. A nervous bay area waited for the next. Correspondents or for the next gruesome murder. However they wouldn't need to wait. Long on september twenty seventh of one thousand nine hundred sixty nine pacific union. College students bryan hartnell. And cecelia shepard were part. Were picnicking at lake. Barry esa on a small island a white man around five eleven weighing more than one hundred seventy pounds with combed. Greasy brown hair approached them wearing a blade. Black executioner style hood clip on sunglasses over the eyeholes. The man was also wearing a bib. Like article of clothing with a white three by three inch circle and cross symbol. He approached the couple with the gun which hartnell believed was a forty five caliber as a little bit of a spoiler alert for the how this one pans out. Yeah just a bit. that's okay. The hooded man said he was an escaped con convict from jail with a quote. Two word name and either colorado or montana. And i don't believe that. I don't believe that. Brian could remember which is understandable for what you see is coming here that he wouldn't remember what this guy said but he's this guy said that he killed a guard and stole a car to escape. He then said that he needed their car and money to escape to mexico because his car was quote too hot which makes sense you know if he stole it right from a prisoner. I get that i think this think the story. He kind of builds. Here's i mean you won't once you see like we didn't mention it earlier but on those on the letters that were sent the same logo that we're talking about was on it that he's got on his front the cross and circle which pretty much a lot of people signed circle around it right. It looks like a crosshairs like it. Looks like if you're playing like a school shooter game. That's kind of what you see when you go into the into the actual shooting mode exactly definitely which makes sense like a gun logo. The suspect had pre cut lines of clothesline. So like what you would have close onto dry. And he told shepherd to shepherd to tie up hartnell before he tied her up. The killer then checked the tightness of the binds that heart now had an on heart now actually tightened them while the couple believed that. This event was a bizarre robbery. Those thoughts were quickly changed by what what happened next. I don't know that this this murderer shown in the movie. Also and i don't know what it is but i have a hard time watching the scene man. I said the same dude. I skipped it watching i. I mean i don't know if it's the. It's just very vivid in very detailed and it's just horrifying to think that this actually happened to somebody to me. It's the killing of the girl. That does it for me like everything before that. I'm like i'm totally fine. But like she's screaming looking directly into the camera and it's just a knife heading her and she's like and agony. It's really brutal. I it's terrifying. I like i watched horror movies all the time with like crazy things happening. There's virtually no blood in the scene. I have to skip it. It's weird right right so he's got them tied up. He's tightened them down. The suspect draws a foot long knife and stabs. Both victims repeatedly heart now suffered six stab wounds while shepherd suffered ten in the attack. The suspect then hiked five hundred yards to the victims vehicle and drew a cross and circle. Symbol on heart nells car door and underneath it he wrote. I'm gonna read this line by line hair. Vallejo twelve twenty sixty eight which is the first one that we talked about seven four sixty nine july fourth one obviously september twenty seventh sixty nine six thirty by knife in. That is the one that we're talking about right now. I'll have. I'm gonna share something on the blog post. That has pictures of this vehicle and what was written on it as well as all of the zodiac letters that he sent. Because we're not going to go over all of them because there's there's a lot but they're definitely keep an eye on the artwork. If you're a podcast player supports it. And i will have those in. There are at least go so again. The suspect would report the crime to local authorities before claiming responsibility for them. The victims were found by a man and his son who were on a fishing who were fishing at a nearby cove. Shepherd was unconscious upon their arrival but slipped into a coma and died at the hospital. Two days later hartnell. The mail survived the attack and was able to provide description to the police in the press. Detectives would also locate a boot print at the scene of the crime that was a military style boot leading some to believe that zodiac had military experience now. The boot that was found at the crime scene was like d- do you probably know a little bit more about it ryan. It's like designed to walk on the wing of planes or something like that and it right only purchase at somewhere where you need a military. Id to make purchases. I remember reading. An and i guess. I i might be wrong about this because i don i remember reading that you could also buy them at military surplus stores yet. What when you think about it. Anything really that the military has for the most part. You can find somewhere right so even back then. I don't think that this is and i think this kind of to a point might hurt this investigation a little bit that the police are now focusing so much on a military person and i and this happens a lot by the way i was just going to say that it's crazy. How often this happens. It's like they get like one piece of evidence and they start chasing like crazy and it takes down like a secondary road and the actual answer is like further up the road. They were already on and they have no idea that they're going down this really weird road and But this just keeps happening. And i think this is one of the early Examples of it. Definitely yeah. I think that you gotta think that if you're doing something like this especially with zodiac who seems to be very into the details if you will that. This is something that i that he would use to throw them off the trail and it seems like a no brainer to me. Like i'm going to wear military boots tonight that you can only buy allegedly or whatever it was i feel like it just throws the entire investigation into a loop. Because i don't personally after after writing this and i don't think you guys are at the end. I don't think this was a military guy. What do you think ryan do you have. Do you have any. I'm in one hundred percent agreement with you on that one. I don't think so at all. I think this guy was either a troubled child that you know became a criminal. But i think that this person is a career criminal in at least in my opinion and some of that. I think i kind of alluded to earlier but like there are breaks in activity with zodiac over time and a lot of those breaks in activity at least with at least one or two of the suspects actually line up with them to having prison sentence which would make sense given the fact that there were no letters received by any the newspapers. Any of the people that he was tormenting didn't get anything like that. That seems to say a lot for me. I just feel like this guy was just a career criminal honestly. Two weeks following the attack at lake mary. Esa a white male entered a cab driven by paul stein in san francisco. The passenger requested to be taken to presidio heights however on arrival for unknown reasons the taxi driver drove one block past the original quested intersection. The passenger then shot stein once in the head with a nine millimeter took signs wallet and car. Keys and a section of stein's bloodstained shirt. The suspect is witnessed by three teenagers. Then called the police so two blocks from the crime scene Patrol officers. Dan falc and eric zooms responding to the calls of the crime in progress witnessed a white man walking along the sidewalk near the crime scene. But because of the initial police dispatch mistakenly pending. The suspect is a black male. They actually ignored the man which turned out to be a mistake. I believe anyway Search following the discovery of crime yielded no results and the officers description of the man is nearly identical to all the witnesses only varying slightly in age and they also talked about like a like a like a limber like like he almost lumbered along kind of thing Which which was another part of this. While the stein murder was initially believed to be a robbery gone wrong. That theory was squashed two days later. The san francisco chronicle actually received a new letter from the zodiac containing a piece of the bloody shirt that was taken the night of the crime and claiming responsibility. Witnesses were questioned and from this crime. The police sketch was developed. The case was given to detectives bill. Armstrong dave tashi the same cisco department estimated a total of nearly twenty five hundred suspects that were investigated over a couple of years. Now this is a crazy crazy story and this is kind of said this earlier but the murder of paul stein. Here is one of the ones that i think like. You can't say he didn't do in. It's because of these pieces of the of his pajama shirt. Basically that this guy was wearing while he was driving a cab late at night. What do you guys think. I think it's i think it's you're right. You know one hundred percent. He did this but if you look at it doesn't fit his. Mo at all whatsoever no not along the other the other attacks couples in secluded areas. It's like totally bizarre that this happened. But i think it's but i have a theory on this and i. Do you have a theory too that you want that. You're going to go ahead okay So i do have a theory here now. The movie posits this. And then i. I kinda did some digging a few ago after watching this movie because i've been obsessed with this story for a very long time it. The killing actually happened really close to the same timeframe that a radio show was talking about the zodiac and making all of these claims about what kind of person he must be and and how he's a monster and all this stuff and the movie kind of says this. And i think i kind of agree with the idea but basically they're driving along. This radio station is playing. All the speculative stuff about him and then all of a sudden he shoots the guy and i'm wondering if it was. I'm angry. all these people are getting it wrong. I'm going to show them. Just what i'm capable of and i'm going to show them show them that. I'm not stuck to the same m o that i've been doing for for a while now and i'm going to kill this guy right here and now i don't think he planned it. I think he got in the cab to go somewhere. And i think he decided in that cab ride that he was going to kill this man. I gotta be honest with you. That might be the best assessment of this. That i've ever heard i think that's the annual and i never heard that i mean that's that's perfect breakdown of it. What do you think alex. I- i- hundred percent agree and honestly it's something that i've thought about. You know hearing different stories of serial killers like that. It's like if one of the major criteria is analyzing their mo. Why wouldn't you change it every single time or at least pretty often right yeah. It's just that when you look at the case without digging into it it's like a total curve ball right because it doesn't but but but it breaking it down like that that's probably an as a great assessment. I gotta be honest. So i appreciate that. I thought i. I thought i was on. Its tastic so contained in that letter with stein's shirt was a threat that would startle the community and keep them on edge zodiac threatened to shoot out the tires of a school bus and quote. Pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out so this is this is another thing that probably absolutely horrified this community. Right because they're in the grips of the serial killer so correct me. If i'm wrong did they didn't they hold off on printing the we're gonna. I'm gonna pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out part for a little while before they actually. Yes yeah they did. That was probably a smart decision. Because i think you you're you're one hundred percent right like this. Would this would just rock the community to like to their core. I mean can you imagine being asked like to keep that quiet while having kids getting on an office grace right. I don't know that i could honestly like. I think i'd call my kid off from school every day until they called me to ask on. And i'd have i mean i'd have like an overwhelming amount of guilt about that but i mean you have to do what you. Yeah but you would have. You would have overwhelming even more overwhelming guilt. If you sent your kid on the bus in this happened you know what i mean so yeah i would have no guilt none whatsoever room keeping up from school. The community of san francisco crippled by the most recent zodiac threat. The killer continued his antics. He contacted the oakland police department requested. That one of two prominent lawyers at the time. F lee bailey or melvin. Belli appear on. Am san francisco while bailey was unable to appear on the local talk. Show alvin bell. I actually did. The host of the show pleaded with the public to keep the lines open in hopes that the zodiac would call eventually someone referring to himself as the and sam called in and a meet up between the suspect and bell was arranged however the caller never showed so on november ninth zodiac mailed a card with another cryptogram consisting of three hundred and forty characters. This cipher has never been decoded although many have claimed to have cracked it. None of them have been able to to be actually taken us definitive. The zodiac then began communicating with marvin bell. I in a letter that included another piece of stine's bloody shirt zodiac could ask for belli's help in this letter which turned which he actually then turned over to detectives. While many other murders have been speculated to involve zodiac the only murders have been definitively tied to him are the ones we have mentioned so far. Yeah so we kinda hinted at that earlier. And i for the sake completion est i will share the other murders on the blog. Post i personally after reading into them. Do not believe that they were doc. I don't know if you guys read into any of the other murders. I have an only because this case really does just completely fascinate. Me and i would agree with you. A lot of them and there are a few like there's one where he actually claims that he shot cop in a parked police car. And i mean like that was literally reported in the news like days before he wrote the letter was received and then like a day after he sent the letter someone was already in custody and had an had literally said that they like there's multiples of these where he claimed something that he definitely didn't do which just points out like how much he was to your point earlier. Actually just trying to to play up the media. I mean let's be honest. This man was a brilliant marketer. Oh yeah for sure. I mean even some of even some of his letters he. He requested that the citizens of san francisco where pins zodiac pins and it would make him. I love that by the way. I think it's great. It's awesome and i thought when i when i saw that in the movie i thought it was like hollywood stuff but it's actually true in the letter. It actually a couple of the letters. He says that you know you request that they wear penzone says he's upset that he doesn't see anybody zodiac pens like like my favorite is that he specifies he's like nothing mean or angry. I forget the wording. But he's like nothing rude or mean or now. But i just want someone walking around with my with my symbol or something like it's so funny like eared thing to ask for her so we kind of broke. You is trying to build a brand. I mean i think hildebrand beyond maybe he did have his own clothes. You go there you go. So we kind of breezed. Over the the melvin. Belli thing and it. We kind of mentioned it at the beginning of this episode. And i don't know if we were recording at the time that we mentioned it's gonna mention it again. That video of bel. I on the news talking with somebody on the on. The phone was actually tied to a psych patient that called in that was in a psych hospital so it was not zodiac. Unfortunately because it makes for at least the scene in the movie school you know it's like the scream and everything but oh yeah oh dude it's terrorism. I mean can you imagine sitting there watching it with like kids right right like that shock. Yeah so unfortunately that was not zodiac. That ended up being somebody different. But i think it was. It's an important part of the story. I think because it kind of shows that a lot of people were piggybacking off what zodiac what zodiac is. Doing they had you know. Hundreds of suspects confessing to them and getting the details. Completely wrong on the crimes. So he's he's really got this community half of them and fear and half of them trying to take his his glory from them. Maybe not half. That might be a little bit of an overestimate. But i think that doesn't matter what i think. Let's move on call so just to kind of move onto another story that that seems to have been tied back to the zodiac kathleen. John's of san bernardino was actually traveling on the night of march. Twenty second nineteen seventy to visit her mother. John's was seven months pregnant and had a ten month old daughter beside her as she traveled along highway. One thirty two near modesto modesto. A car began honking and flashing the lights behind her. She pulled off on the side of the road and actually stopped the man in the car parked behind her approached her and informed her that her rear wheel was wobbling and offered to tighten the lug nuts following assisting her. The man drove off and john scott back onto the highway however the tire almost immediately came off the vehicle. The man came back around and offered to drive her in her daughter to a nearby gas station. John's entered the man's vehicle for assistance. And for the next ninety minutes he would drive back and forth on the back roads passing multiple stations. But he did not stop when she confronted him on not stopping he would change the subject. The suspect eventually stopped at an intersection. At which time. Johns took the opportunity to escape with her young daughter. The suspect preceded search for her with a flashlight stating that he wouldn't hurt her but he eventually gave up and drove away. During johnson's statement to the police. She noticed that the police composite sketch of paul stine's killer and identified him as the man who abducted her and her child while many accounts report that the suspect threatened her during the ride. This is disputed with the police report. Yeah and in another part. That's disputed is him searching for her with the flashlight. I couldn't really find it a definitive answer if he actually did that so Take that for what it's worth. I don't know that he did or didn't get out of the car and look for the flashlight. But this is actually what alex was talking about earlier. Right this is yeah. Yeah this scene in the movie Whether it's actually how it played out or not was this. Is the scene that i had hard time watching like the whole time. I was thinking to myself. Because you see the people pull up. And she's freaking out on the side of the road she's bloody and and and what you assume then because in the car The the guy he actually says and because because another thing we didn't really talk about exactly. I don't think Oh yeah ten month old daughter. Okay and he says. I'm going to throw your child at the window before i kill you. Kill you and kill you. And then it's then it proceeds to the scene to cycle my. Gosh what whereas her kid and then you know and then luckily you know you see that that that she hid hit the child and you hear the crying. It makes it a lot better but before that you know. I'm thinking to myself. Oh my gosh. She's looking for her kid on right right. Yeah yeah. that's that's a good. That's a good assessment. That but i think from everything that i could find that threatening stuff was actually hollywood and her police report. He'd she doesn't mention that she was threatened by him. She just felt very uneasy with this guy. Driving her around passing the gas stations. That that's why she actually got out of the car when he stopped at that intersection. So yeah But yeah that's it's startling. Scene in that movie for sure. In a letter received in october of nineteen seventy by chronicle reporter paul avery the similarities between zodiacs activities and the unsolved nineteen sixty six murder of sherri joe bates in riverside more than four hundred miles. South of san francisco revealed while similarities. Are there riverside police and paul. Avery maintained that the murder was not committed by zodiac now. This is the one that i kind of mentioned a little bit earlier. That i didn't wanna start with this. For at least part of the investigation was considered to possibly be perpetrated by zodiac. But i think the evidence shows that it's not zodiac. I do you feel that same way ryan. I would say so. I mean it. It feels like you know like i said earlier. He's just kind of taking credit for anything he can take credit for and And i have a fury on that by the way. But i feel like he's just taking credit for whatever he can because he wants to stay in light and he's become a. I think that's right. I'd have to agree with that as well. So while in correspondent sent by zodiac claimed thirty seven murders. Investigators seem to agree that only seven confirmed victims two of which survived and the final confirmed zodiac letter was received on january twenty nine th nineteen seventy four and included the final score and i. I didn't really mention this earlier. He's kind of keeping score on some of these letters so the final score for him in this is worth thirty. Seven comes from as me equals thirty seven. Sf pd equals zero. So it's like a game to the sky man. It startling that that say he's keeping score. That's like horrifying right. Yeah i mean it's it's just like you said it's it's all a game to him and and it's It's just fine. I mean he's said before he's a psychopath. Most i shouldn't say most but there are serial killers that are just completely insane. You know a lot of them are are you know smart in a they. Have that charisma to be able to attract people in order to kill them but for him. He's just coming out of the night. And he's a psychopath. Mean that. And i think that's part of why he never gets caught is Psychopaths don't follow a set pattern. Sociopaths are typically the ones who set a follow a set pattern and the reality is that there. Aren't that many psychopath killers like confirmed psychopathic killers. But the ones that have been confirmed to be psychopaths or at least think that they're confirmed to be. Psychopaths are the ones who haven't been caught. Which is because they don't follow a pattern they don't they don't have an emo. They don't do things the same way each time. So it's hard to track them right. So dave gi. I think that's how you say it. Right dave totski. It's other tashi or gator. Can't with toss ski. Was the chief inspector on the zodiac case. He also inspired movies. The movies bullet in dirty harry for his unique personal style and look out. I'll share a picture of him. And maybe ryan will put one here. He's got a very unique dress style and he's just a he's just cool dude i think but he was actually under investigation for potentially writing one of zodiac letters that was sent but he was and this is super unfortunate and he was exonerated of this thank goodness but ruined is the history ruined his career whether he was exonerated because he was i think it it screwed him out of the chief position i think for the department because of all this was going on so it is very unfortunate but and the real of that is they mentioned this in the movie too but i think i think it's called mentioned here because he he did not write a letter to the right one of the zodiac letters. He actually wrote a letter to someone who was writing like stories and comics based on what he did in the police force. He wrote a letter an anonymous letter asking for those stories to be put back into the newspaper. He was basically writing like a fan letter to himself. And that's why the speculation happened. Which is like unfortunate like. He just wanted to see the about himself right. He's looking for attention that's what he was doing. But at the time when you see a guy publicly looking for attention. And i can see where they made the ties. I think that was at least part of them. Checking the handwriting for this guy too right. Yeah he had to submit handrail exams. It's an unfortunate thing that happened to the poor guy. And i like we saturdays exonerated so he definitely did not rate one of these. So we're going to briefly burris over some suspects here. And i'm going to let ryan do arthur. Leigh allen is it. Because i think that he is the one who gets okay. I'm fine with that All right so Spoiler alert also had in whatever you want. Add in here because i tried a little brief on the suspects. So that's fine. I just say. I do think that maybe after we talk about this a lot of people will will maybe agree with me on some of this that he's he's might disagree with that so we go and we'll get there so if you guys have not seen the movie we've talked about a whole bunch robert gray. Smith is kind of the central character. He's a cartoonist. For the san francisco chronicle during the zodiac time he became kind of obsessed with this case. I worked with paul avery at the at that newspaper. Now part of his story is told in the film but gray. Smith also wrote a book that advanced. Arthur leigh allen as a potential suspect on circumstantial evidence. Now the circumstantial evidence that we're talking about here is pretty crazy and Is pretty hard to say is not him. But it was all circumstantial. We'll get to that. And second so allen had been interviewed by the police from the early days of the zodiac investigation was the subject of search warrants over a twenty year period. And grace moretz book. He describes allen as the most likely of the suspects according to police detectives however in twenty ten tashi states that the evidence against alan ultimately turned out to be negative allen had been reported in the vicinity of lake barry esa during the attack allen again came under police attention in nineteen seventy one when his friend. Donald cheney reported to manhattan beach california police that allen had spoken of his desire to kill people use. The name zodiac insecure a flashlight to a firearm for visibility at night allen also wore zodiac watch had the same type of had the typewriter as the one discovered to be used in the sherry joe bates cased live near vallejo only minutes from one of the zodiac victims which was in which we mentioned earlier in two thousand two sf pd developed. Ask whatever you wanna add into. This evidence is so now just to kind of go a little bit more into what don cheney mentioned here just to be specific. This is the kind of this. Is the stuff that don cheney said that. Allen told him so he told him that he would like to kill couples randomly. He taught the police with letters detailing crimes he would sign the letters with the cross cross circle symbol from his watch. He wanted to one day call himself zodiac. He said to his friend at that time he would wear makeup to change his appearance. He would attach flashlights to the barrel of his gun. In order to shoot at night he would full women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming. They had problems with their tires. Then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive He was born on december eighteenth around the same time. The zodiac told attorney. Mar melvin belli's housekeeper. Over the phone. That it was his birthday and he needed to kill someone. Allen lived vallejo near blue rock springs lake. Herman road murderers like. There's there's a lot there's actually a bunch and i might even include a link to to this article. That goes over a lot. I think i know the article. You're talking about you. I'll put it in the blog. Post where you guys can read down all that stuff. It'd be good to look at. There's a lot here and the the reality is that after even after all of this. With all of the circumstantial evidence this is. This is of the thing that happened. So in two thousand and two san francisco. Pd developed a partial dna profile from saliva on stamps and envelopes of zodiac letters. The sf pd compared the partial to both allen and don cheney since neither test results indicated a match allen and cheney were excluded as the contributors of the dna. But my thing on this my one thing on this is it is entirely possible that he did not because he planned this whole thing. He knew what was going to happen. He knew how he was going to toy with people. I don't believe that he would have. He would have personally licked though stance. Yeah probably had a dog only there you go or or just i think they can tell the difference between dog. Dna and human dna and other animals. I believe if they can't to then why are we even using right if they can't right. Yeah i i think that's a fair assessment to make to me. This is like the put the pen in this guy thing. And i don't believe it's him. I think that did it. What did you say no. It's totally this guy. You think it's him hundred. Rebellious you way tie and a one. Yeah it's totally are three al. I think i think that the movie in the book. Lean very heavily into the sky. And i think that is where a lot of the stuff comes from but the dna man. I mean that's like. I mean outside of having somebody to lick his stamps. Which seems odd which is possible. But again is circumstantial right. We don't know that there's no way to prove that he had somebody else. Lick that stamp and that sucks for that guy if they ever find him or girl right. Like oh yeah. True totally got lick stamps. For arthur leigh allen. Back in the day that's true now but also think about it this way too because back in those days like Post offices were smaller people. New people like it's it is possible that he walked in there and said oh. I forgot to put a stamp on that. Could you throw a stamp on there. And they they may have just done it our as possible. That's very yeah. That's on very good. Very good assessment. I mean the guy wore gloves. He wore gloves. He knew what he was doing like he planned this all so actually the witnesses at the pulse stein murder seeing the kids said that he was they witnessed him wiping the vehicle down for fingerprints and stuff to see a right. He did very much plan this out and he knew what he was doing hundred percent so i dunno you. Take it for what it's worth. I think the reason that i have him on here. I is because i think he's the most likely suspect. I think it's a no brainer. That he's the most likely out of the other ones that we're gonna talk about. And this is the same kind of thing as the db cooper thing. It's been so long now that everything is going to be circumstantial outside of them finding a match for the dna or something else. That's a little more substantial. So the reason i put him on here i but a lot i mean. There's there's a documentary documentary series. That leans on three or four other different suspects. So have you guys just put all. Why don't we just put the rest of this list on the did you say yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. I'll put that. I can put the rest of that on the blog posts. Because i think if being honest some of these are like no like even ted kaczynski. The unabomber was considered as a suspect for for zodiac. Which when you look at some of the stuff is like okay. I mean got kind of the same handwriting. And kinda the same. Look but i mean i don't know man the the one that i was talking about in last week's episode where i said the guy thought that it was his step or his dad. Did you guys remember me talking about that. yes i do. So the name of the book that was published as the most dangerous animal of all in which he claims his search for his biological father. Van earl van best junior led him to conclude that van best was the zodiac killer and then twenty twenty. The book was adapted to an fx documentary series again throughout the entire documentary brings up very very good points very good stuff but at the end it kind of unravels. So i'm not gonna i'm gonna. I don't wanna spoil that for anybody. Who wants to watch it. I think it's worth a watch or just gonna put a pin in that one. We'll put a pin in that one and the other one. I wanted to briefly. Talk about was raw sullivan ross. Sutherland was a person of interest through the possible link to the zodiac killer in cheri jo bates and riverside which again were not sure that zodiac committed. And i think it's pretty fair to assess that he didn't commit that. Crime but sullivan was a librarian at a ra- library assistant at riverside city college and was suspected by colleagues. Who said that he that he went missing for several days after the murder of sherri joe bates sullivan. If you look up. His pictures resembles the sketches of the zodiac. He wore military style boots. Same as the ones found at the lair lake. Barry us a crime scene and he was also hospitalized multiple times for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is another documentary that i watched last night. It's actually on amazon. It's pretty good. It's called the hunt for the zodiac killer. And they lean into this guy pretty pretty pretty heavy and it's actually pretty interesting. It's like a retired. Lapd detective and like a retired. Fbi profiler maybe. It's really good. If you if you guys get a chance to watch it. The the next part that we're going to briefly talk about comes from that documentary. So i'll you the rest of these. Like alex said i'll share the rest of the suspects if you guys want to read them on the blog post so make sure you head over to that. Strange dot net check out the rest of these suspects. prepare error. The san francisco police department marked the case inactive in april of two thousand and four however reopened it in march of two thousand and seven this case as everybody knows remains on open and no one has ever been charged with the murders so z. Three forty was the cipher. That was never solved k. It was the second cipher. We z eight and z. Three forty in the finale of the documentary series the hunt for the zodiac killer. Which is the one. I was talking about on amazon. A code team feature is featured attempting to solve the three forty cipher. Craig bauer one of these members seemingly solved half of the cipher that zodiac assured what contain his identity. And i'm going to read this. And then i'm gonna tell you my opinion on it here it is. I kill both night and day. I live by the gun. Barrel aim so quick wishing for game to be over pigs. Now there's like six other ways that this goes after this and i'm not going to put it in here because i don't think either of them alright and i don't think this is right. Did you know this ryan i had. I remember what. I watched this or watch. Something like this Or at least watch part the part where they talk about this cipher and and you know that they had maybe figured it out but you know at the end of the day i think you have to also look at the previous writings and if you look at the previous ciphers the ones that were solved and definitively like this is actually what they say. This isn't like the way he wrote. Ciphers no no not at all. It doesn't sound like him at all. Not even a little bit like i could believe it coming from someone else. Maybe but it doesn't make any sense coming from the zodiac. As we him and his letters were anything but inconsistent like they were very consistent. I'll give you a give you my breakdown of this second cipher. Real quick so that they seemingly solved half the cipher. Craig says that the second half was just gibberish by the way that he solved the first half so he doesn't know if they he changed the cipher. Halfway through yada yada yada. There is a name at the end. But it's a weird spelling for richard nixon. So he's again toying with them. If that's the actual name maya cessnas. This is not right. And there's no right way to solve the cipher. We're talking about a psychopath here. We're talking about somebody that wants to toy with the the police and everybody i think he just wrote down random symbols to keep them busy and i think that's why the first cipher took a day to solve in this one. It's you know what thirtysomething forty something years later and it's still not solved so i don't think i think the cipher is fake. I don't think there's think it's ever going to be solved definitively. Because i don't think there's a way to solve it if if it's fake. How did they get anything at all. Then well the way that craig did. This breakdown is he says that in in in the cipher. There's a bunch of different symbols and letters here used the letters that were actually tied to the letter in the cipher. so if it was a k. He used k if it was an l. he used l. so he says that's why he thinks it went so long without being broken. Because nobody's gonna try and break a cipher and look behind the k. To find a k. Right right so. I don't know man i i almost didn't want to include this because i just don't believe it but i think it's at least it seems like it's picking up traction zodiac community so that it was worth mentioning but i just think it's and i think that with like ciphers like this there. There are so many ways that you could kind of twist this and make it something that something that you want it to be and i mean for me again like i said there. The zodiac letters were anything but inconsistent. Like i said and it would be strange to me that he would send a cipher that changed code halfway through so that would be a red flag me right away. The wording doesn't seem right. So that would be a red flag to me that i that i probably got my assumption about what he's using here wrong also. Can we talk just for like a list of moments that a married couple. Figure this out when the fbi the cia. Everybody was looking at it. Originally that's the first cipher there. They they actually. We just didn't mentioned earlier. And i just think it's yet we met. We talked about it. Also you got to think about the fact that you know there are a ton of people in the world that can still had these skills but they probably have a lot more time in their hands that it would. I honestly think that it is important that other people look at these things that other people try to play around with it because you know who knows there there could be somebody that could put two and two together that the fbi is just too busy they just got so much other stuff going on exactly and not enough hands. And that's that's what m- kinda muddied up these san francisco police investigation into it is. They had other murders to investigate a lot of other. Might san francisco. It's a big city. They had a lot of other murders to solve not saying that the police didn't care about solving this one which they clearly did but once it gets past that like i forty eight hours that they say it it becomes very difficult to solve these murders and they have fresh murders that are coming in fresh fans that need them to help. And you know that you know. I don't know what i'm trying to say. But it's that's what kind of hurt this investigation. Along with. A couple of of of other things in the cipher. Being one of them so all right. Let's take our final breakdown of what we think on the zodiac starting with alex honestly after hearing kind of the breakdown of arthur leigh allen and all that well i'll say a couple of things i definitely think that he was purposefully. Changing his mo. In order to throw people off. I think that he was possibly changing the code or even just like you said throwing in random symbols from time to time to throw people off. I think that like i said before. This was all a game to him because he is. He's a psychopath. And i think that tying arthur leigh allen to it just based solely on the details given here and in other sources that you said I mean i think it's a good possibility. I think there are a lot of things that tie him. In and Just without doing a Other other research of my own looking at this in it looks pretty plausible to me anyway but definitely an interesting case for sure ryan. Well i kinda. I kind of said what i what i think Earlier and it stands true. I think. Arthur leigh allen having given all of this information to donald cheney back when he did which was proceeding. I don't think. I don't think i was very clear on this earlier but it was proceeding all of the events that was proceeding all the murders. When this when these conversations took place and there were other things revealed that may or may not be factual. But you know things about his writing and his penchant for misspelling and thinking it was funny and stuff like that but the the bottom line is that so many of the things that he talked about doing or actually did like top shooting out a school. Bus tire talking about Tricking women into into pulling over and telling them their wheel was wobbly. And then loosening the lug nuts. These were things that he did which is kind of crazy to actually consider that you know he. This man literally said. I'm gonna do all these things. And then he did them and we're still thinking about it that he couldn't that he might not have been the one who actually ended up doing the things he said he was going to do. Like literally a bullet list of things. He was going to do that he did. And it just seems like. He's the most plausible based on the fact that you know. All all of the in all of the circumstantial evidence what he said he was going to do the zodiac. Watch everything about him the fact that he did walk with a little bit of a a limp. Apparently according to eyewitnesses. You know that actually met arthur. Leigh allen interviewed him. There's just so much to it. And apparently he was in jail during parts during parts of time where there were no zodiac letters received. He was actually serving time in prison during those times. There's just so many things that point to him. I think that it's hard to ignore. I can go both ways on this. I think that. Arthur leigh allen is a good suspect. Part of me thinks that he did it. The dna hurts that theory a little bit to me. I think outside of arthur lee alan. There's a lot of other suspects that look good in this case. I think that there is no way that this guy at least in my brain. There's no way that this guy stopped killing so he either died or got arrested for something else or continued killing and nothing has been linked to him. But that's not very plausible. Because i think he's going to call that stuff out. So i don't know if it's arthur leigh allen. I don't know who it is really. I think that psychopaths don't stop doing what they're doing. And they're not like you. And i alex and i get on kicks all the time and we're onto something else the next day right so so so for a killer to do that. I don't think it's really in the cards but it could be. It could be this guy moved on with his life. Stop killing how to family and died and didn't want to say anything about confessing to it because now he's got a family doesn't want his family knowing that he was a serial killer back in the day. There's just so many ways you can go with this case. I'm i i don't see enough to pin and on anybody which obviously the police in fbi and everybody else don't see anything to put it on anybody. So that's where i land on this zodiac but this is definitely one of my favorite episodes that we don. I love this case. I think we were all really excited about doing this. One so Really thank you guys for for listening if you guys have your own opinions and share who you think did it. You can hit us up on facebook at that strange. Podcast instagram twitter. And i would love to hear what you guys think for seventy or even in our blog our instagram and facebook or instagram and twitter are underscore that strange and then obviously our blog. Is that strange dot net. You can directly comment on the blog if you want or messages are to. We have some really cool stuff coming up in the near future here We got the podcast summit and deepen united You can check them out on facebook as well or just. Google search indie pods united. And then you can get all the information there. We have the event on that bright. You can get all kinds of great stuff It's going to be a really great Convention with podcasts artists. gravitate speakers and workshops as well too If you're a podcast or yourself get yourself in the game and And really learn a lot so And fantastic graphical design stuff being done by our very own alex. Thank you ryan thank you and yes. He's he is he is right is definitely about that. So we are still looking for sponsors. If you'd like to sponsor our show you can also contact us at Contact at that. Strange dot net or just hit us up on facebook like i said Pretty pretty. Well stay active on that. So thank you guys again for listening to this week's episode on zodiac and also make sure you check out our group on facebook. It's called that strange and we're building a great community of people there who just love discussing all things strange and unexplained. So you will see you next time as always. I'm alex i'm chad i'm ryan and we are that strange

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Hostage Bites: Psychological Manipulation

Hostage

27:54 min | 1 year ago

Hostage Bites: Psychological Manipulation

"Welcome to podcast crime bites. We wanted to give our listeners. Some additional content to help them dive even deeper into the true crime world every week. In addition to your normal hostage episode were exploring the most fascinating fascinating true crime themes covered across the podcast network. We've collected short clips from some of our most popular podcast originals to help us explore ideas. Here's like motivation method and madness and show how interconnected the true crime world really is. You can find the original episodes of these for for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. A list of episodes that we used will be posted in the episode description today. We're discussing cussing cases of psychological manipulation. What tactics criminals used to deceive coerce and exert control over their victims? Why does it work? And most importantly what are the dangerous consequences of these types of mental domination psychiatrist. Harvey Saint Saint Clair defined psychological manipulation as a psychosocial maneuver which uses aggressiveness cleverness and deception to influence others so they will give gratification to the aggressor this gratification. Whether that be taking hostage cultivating followers or seducing a murder victim is the driving moving force behind the criminals manipulative actions. They desire to gain absolute control over their prey psychologist. George Simon identified many tactics ticks manipulators use to dominate their victims such as intense flattery. Playing the victim to gain sympathy and undermining victims perception of reality through gasoline. So who do manipulators target. How do they select the right person to fall prey to the scheme Dr? Harriet breaker identified identified. The most common traits victims of manipulation possess among them are an eagerness to please low self reliance I desire to earn acceptance the blurry sense of identity and fear of disapproval in our clips today walk through a variety of crimen leaders and see how they identify these traits rates victims. We'll start with a clip from podcast original crimes of passion covering one of the most well known cases of manipulation in true crime history. The Manson family by manipulating in group and out group dynamics in the late nineteen sixties murderer and cult leader Charles Manson radicalized its followers and cultivated an intense devotion that propelled the family eight to do his bidding. While the most famous killings committed by the Manson family were the tate labianca murders in August of nineteen sixty nine their first first victim was drug dealer Gary Hinman Hindrance murder was the catalyst for a string of brutal killings carried out by the Manson family in the summer up sixty nine in July of nineteen sixty nine. Charles learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument. Bobby Beausoleil Oh Soleil had purchased a thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed but the drugs were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles else figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund the families 'cause in exchange Charleston over a few family family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman was particularly attracted to Manson family. Member Eligible Bailey. So so he suggested she go along to help persuade Henman but ella jo asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent and she later said that she witnessed the family members arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring to Henman's apartment instead Charleston. Family members Bruce Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers. They held a drug dealer up at gunpoint. While the spurn Bobby Beausoleil beat him senseless senseless eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment. But when Bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days. Bobby Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins held Gary Hinman hostage in his home. They continue to make demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him when Henman and told them he'd go to. The police. Bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to we do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology. Please note that. I am not unlicensed psychiatrists or psychologists but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism People can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless examples of people falling under a violent Colt influence and going on to do the unthinkable. Licensed mental health. Counselor Stephen Hasson use the rise of al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder. These extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access vest to outside information and instilling an US versus them mentality. Charles Manson uses seem tactics family members. I looked at Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance. Some even thought he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their your trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman then dipped his hand in the dying man's blood to draw on the wall. He wrote political piggy. You and then painted a pawprint Charles had instructed bobby to leave evidence incriminating the Black Panthers he hoped Henman's death breath would heightened racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter then. The group left taking Henman's cars with them in this episode covering the Manson family Gary Henman's murder was only the first in a series of killings soon after the family slaughtered actress Sharon Tate and other innocent people all in a bid to kick-start Manson's prophesied race wars wars but Manson's use of fear and violence was in opposition to many other criminals of the Hippie era instead they capitalized on the prevailing philosophy of peace. And love in this next clip. From cults we examine. What are the most iconic psychedelic cults of the Nineteen Seventies? The source family unlike Charles Manson the source families charismatic leader. Jim Baker relied on ideas. Like Enlightenment and free love to buy his disciples to him like Manson Baker was at the center of the source family but instead of acting as a warrior he became their spiritual father offering them love and wisdom and exchange for their loyalty ultimately however this manipulation created an all consuming dynamic of extreme dependency agency between Baker and his disciples what appeared to be a mutually beneficial relationship. was actually in the service of Baker's crowing ego in Jim Baker typically responded to complex problems by running away from them but this time he didn't cut and run this could be because as psychoanalyst psychoanalyst Daniel Shaw points out in his book traumatic Narcissism Relational Systems of subjugation as a cult leader. Baker had developed a codependent relationship with his followers. Shaw writes quote the power that parents have as God like figures to literally give life and sustain the lives of their children. Children leaves each human being with the memory of total dependency comp leaders tap into and reactivate this piece of the human psyche followers are encouraged to become regressed and infantilized to believe that the life depends on pleasing the cult leader and quote an in just as much as the source. Family members needed Baker. He apparently needed them. According to Shaw the cult leader does not escape dependency instead ed he and also in many cases she comes to depend on his followers to worship and adore him to reflect his narcissistic delusion of perfection. Affection in March of Nineteen seventy-three. The fifty one year old Baker managed to find a second home for his followers which they called the Father House. It's a three bedroom three bathroom home. In the hills near the source restaurant it was significantly smaller than the mother house. A fact that would soon lead into deadly health risks in some ways life at the Father House went on just as it had at the mother. House business at the source was still booming and it still required a few dozen members to run at each day everyone still gathered for four. AM Meditation and spent much of the day cleaning while seeking enlightenment meant but in other ways everything changed. Baker began channeling new beliefs constantly with an ever-expanding emphasis on his own power. Our he began calling himself by the Jewish name for God Yoga. He taught about the freemasons and ancient Egyptian magic for his followers followers. The pursuit of enlightenment became like a whirlwind game in which no one knew the rules in our episodes on the source family. We go on to examine how Jim Bakker's total control over. His followers only increased over the next x two years. Eventually their numbers surged to over one hundred fifty people but when a run in with the authorities in Los Angeles forced the cult of Fleet Hawaii I baker or father yoed met his end in a fatal hang gliding accident in one thousand nine hundred ninety five for some. It was a death as Gloria says Baker's life but for others. It was shocking wakeup call. They realized that for years Baker had manipulated them believing he was is guiding them to total enlightenment and intern. His followers had blindly obeyed his every whim but what happens when a criminal delude themselves selves. into believing that they're heinous actions are truly in the best interest of their victim coming up. We discussed the horrifying kidnapping case of Katie Beers and explore the power of self manipulation from the violence and separatist mentality of the Manson family to the all consuming codependent dynamic of the source family. Criminals have relied lied on a variety of tactics to exert control over their victims. But perhaps the most fascinating methods of manipulation is one the criminal uses on themselves. Dell's denial and self delusion in our next clip from our show hostage. We cover one of the most twisted cases of self delusion the abduction of Katie Beers kidnapped in nineteen ninety-two nine year old. Katie was kept in an underground bunker chain to the wall where she suffered separate sexual abuse at the hands of her neighbor. John Esposito or big John but unlike Charles Manson or Jim Baker Esposito committed his is crimes out of the belief that he was helping his victim. Katie came from an abusive home so esposito convinced himself. That showering her with gifts. Defection would make Katie happy and feel loved the Nesper Zito's mind. He had rescued Katie from her neglectful family. And it was giving her the care and attention unsheath deserved but in reality he had trapped her in a literal hell on earth. Sometimes big John would come into the bunker and to give Katie food or a toy and then suddenly the blank look would appear on his face and he would rape her one clue about big. John's mental state is how long he remained in denial about sexually abusing Katie. It took more than twenty years for big John To admit he molested Katie and and even then he denied raping her. If Big John Really believed he loved children it would have been hard for him to reconcile that with the obvious evidence since he was seriously harming Katie. Which could lead to denial a psychological coping mechanism on the other hand when John Esposito did finally confess? He blamed his lawyers for telling him not to admit to touching Katie. There is one explanation that fall somewhere between extreme denial and willful awful cruelty Catherine Ramsland. Phd Co author of the book inside the minds of sexual predators. Says one of the most common types of child. Predators is the quote fixated child offender fixated child offenders are stuck at an early stage of psycho sexual development element and rationalize away. They're abusive children as showing affection. They may know their actions are wrong but their fixation on children overrides hides their moral sensibilities so John might have known he was hurting Katie. But because he was fixated and felt unable to stop he tried to convince awesome self he was actually helping her big John's grand gestures like the promise of a car and a huge amount of money on her eighteenth birthday seemed like like further rationalizations of this abuse. He was able to convince himself that kidnapping and sexual abuse were actually a net benefit to his victim victim. Big John had molested children. Before and in those cases too he cast himself as a helpful male role model in their lives among John. ESPOSITO Zito's victims Katie's sixteen year old maternal half brother John Beers hostage victim. Katie beers survived for seventeen days. Inchon Esposito's bunker throughout her captivity while he tried to manipulate her into forgiving him for kidnapping her she used a variety of tactics to convince Esposito to let her go. She pleaded with him if he really loved here. He let her leave. Grow up go to college and have a family eventually. ESPOSITO turned himself into the police though. It's unclear if he was motivated. Audited by guilt over his actions or fear of being caught either way he led the police to the hidden bunker. Freeing Katie Jonah's honest. zito demonstrated how criminals manipulate their victims while they already have them under their control. But how do they gain a potential victims trust in the first place in our next clip from serial killers. We'll examine the tactics of lust murderer Fritz harmon or the Werewolf of Hanover. Harman killed at least twenty four men from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty four. All between the ages of ten and twenty two to lure his victims comes in he sometimes offered them assistance or accommodations. Several of the young men he murdered. Runaways this made them especially vulnerable all to harmon strategic kindness. He brought them home to his apartment supplied them with food and drink that once. They're guard was completely down on. He savagely attacked them after getting away clean for the second time new confidence suffused Harman's bloodlust. So when he met seventeen year old Wilhelm Shilpa that Hanover Station in nineteen twenty three four weeks after killing Fritz Frank thinker. He couldn't help but approach the boy by now. Harmon had a practice routine for finding suitable victims. He often patrolled Hanover station under the guise is a police officer. Searching for vulnerable. Boys shoots was a young writer who had just run away from home and this made him an easy target for Harman. Harmon had impersonated a police officer and pretended to lend a sympathetic ear to the boys troubles. He offered shelter place to stay into warm meal. She'll she'll say eagerly accepted the offers and followed Harmon to his apartment. The room was small but spotless. After nearly getting caught for the murder of frank just weeks prior harmon had scrubbed every inch in fact he had been scrubbing the place with harsh chemicals so often that other tenants in the house had complained to to the landlord a widow named Elizabeth Angle but harmon had long ago explained angle that he was very particular about his cleaning habits and she saw no the reason to bother a tenant for keeping room tidy besides Harmon was charming angle liked him. His charm also allowed him to urge young boys like Schulte Tsa into his bed given his pleasant friendly manner Harmon was always able to get close to his victims without making them uncomfortable in these situations. Sounds harmonised specially like to ask victims about their families. This line of questioning seemed reasonable. Coming from a police officer but Harman's true goal was anything thing but noble. He needed to know if anyone would come looking for the boy. According to Harman he didn't always feel of violent urge to kill the boys. He brought back to his apartment apartment. In some cases harmon kept young men around as errand boys for several days. He gave them small jobs or meals until they stopped coming around other times he raped boys but did not kill them but unfortunately for Schulte his answers made harmon confident that no one would question this show his disappearance harmon pounced. He grabbed shelter by the throat and held him down. He raped him and in the midst of the attack. Sunk his his teeth into Schultz's Adam's apple this episode of serial killers killers further details Fritz Harman's six year reign of terror as the butcher of Hanover. But during that time the police couldn't help but notice the sharp spike in the number burrup missing boys at teenagers. His crimes were eventually uncovered when the bones from his victims started popping up around town in rivers and fields fields when harmon was arrested. Police discovered stacks of young men's clothing in his apartment after killing them. He sold off their possessions for extra cash. Rush at the end his thriftiness. What's his downfall? Every part of Fritz Harman's interaction with victim served a purpose from where he hunted did to how we approach them to be killed them. He was entirely calculated in his manipulations. But for some criminals their actions aren't so nearly deliberate. Rather their manipulations are encouraged by their own dilutions. Our final clip from female criminals covers convicted murderer. Diane Downs Diane grew up in a strict religious household feeling unloved. She searched for ways to fill that hole her entire life live. She finally thought she found the one in Lewiston. Maine carried on a series of fair for the better part of nineteen eighty. Two but Louis was concerned by some Diane's behavior. She needed his constant attention affection. She also lied about everything. Spinning whatever stories necessary very to keep him close to her. Eventually he broke off the affair and went back to wife. Diane was devastated so in May of Nineteen eighty-three. She devised a plan to win back. If she made herself a victim he would have to come back to her. Just save her sadly she involved her three young children in the plot making them victims as well one night. Diane took the kids out for a drive then she she staged of violent carjacking on the night of the shooting. May Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-three detective. -tective Doug Welsh Interview Diane at McKenzie Willamette Hospital Welsh was the responding officer that night and this was his first homicide case. Diane Diane told Welsh that she and her children had gone to visit her friend and Mark Cola a nearby town in Oregon on their way home. She decided to take a longer the route that was more scenic even though it was growing dark as she drove her three sleeping children down old Mohawk road a deserted country road near the Mohawk Doc River. A shaggy-haired man flagged her down making her stop the car. Diane got out to ask what he wanted and he demanded she gives him her keys his when she refused the man snapped pushed her to the side reached into the car and shot the sleeping children. Diane then pretended the throw her car. Keys in the direction of the riverbank to divert the gunman's attention they struggled for a moment and he shot her in the arm but she managed to get back in the car and race away to the hospital. Parts of the story didn't make sense to Welsh. He said quote sightseeing when it's pitch blackout. And why are the kids fatally or near ear fatally wounded and she being right handed is shot in the left arm. I mean think about it. She's the biggest threat to him. Not Three sleeping children and quote. In addition Diane's account of the events on Mohawk road were inconsistent. She told Welsh. The man was bushy-haired then said that he wore wore a ski mask. I she said that they were attacked by one man but then she said there had been two then reverted back to one. Her evolving narrative is consistent consistent with pathological lying the common symptom in those diagnosed with Histrionic personality disorder. Like Diam. The Nest is going to take over on the psychology here here and throughout the episode. Please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. But she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy according to Dr Mark. D Griffiths patients with HP will often lie as a way to enhance or facilitate their dramatic attention seeking behavior in this case ace with the dozens of police and doctors in the hospital focused on her. Diana adjusted her story to appear more dramatic as needed while Welsh took Diane statement. Doctors fought to save the three downs children as we further outlined in the female criminals episodes detailing dying down story. She had a long history of pathological lying though her previous lies never had such high stakes now with our children's lives on the line. Diane constructed an elaborate carjacking story to explain their grave injuries however however her attempts to manipulate investigators and increasing desire for their attention exposed her increasingly convoluted delusions ultimately timidly one of Diane downs. Children died from their injuries. The other two spent months in the hospital recovering. Her three-year-old son was paralyzed from the waist. Down her oldest daughter Christie initially lost the ability to speak but when she recovered it was her testimony. At Diane's trial trial that center mother to prison for life while the criminals in our clips today utilize different manipulation tactics. They all shared one common goal to gain control over their victims. We saw Dr Simon's manipulation tact accept play. Diane downs tried to make herself into a victim to manipulate police. Lee Center ex-boyfriend John Zito tried to use intense flattery to win Katie Beers. Affection even deceiving himself into believing he was saving her. We also saw that. These manipulators chose their victims very carefully paying attention to those who are most vulnerable as laid out by Dr Breaker John. ESPOSITO's ESPOSITO's dictum was not only a child but an abused child who desired the approval of adults for many Fritz. Harman's victims were runaways. Vulnerable to any small amount of kindness. He showed them Jim. Baker offered identity and acceptance to his followers who looked Baker for guidance. Sunday night meant in in the end. They all achieved their goal of complete domination. Thanks for tuning into podcast. Crime Bites we hope you enjoyed this episode on the tactics of psychological manipulation. We'll be back next week with a new episode on Mother's misbehaving. We often think of mothers as the consummate nurturers. Why do they sometimes hurt the ones they love most? I even their own children. If you'd like to listen to the episodes that we discussed today in full simply search for our podcast. Original shows. Crimes Of Passion Ashen Colts hostage serial killers or female criminals on spotify. Not only spotify already ham all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker and don't forget to follow Louis on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. I'll see you next time. Hi podcast listeners. It's Carter if you love hostage we'd love to hear from you by taking a quick survey Ed your feedback will help us. Continue Making your favorite shows better than ever please visit podcast survey dot me slash hostage to answer. A few short questions may seem small. But your input really matters. That's podcast survey dot me slash hostage. Thank you for your continued support and for listening.

Charles Manson Diane Downs Diane Jim Baker Inchon Esposito Gary Henman Fritz harmon Fritz Harman Katie Katie Beers ESPOSITO Zito murder Bobby John spotify Diane downs officer Bobby Beausoleil George Simon kidnapping Nineteen Seventies
Charles Manson - Best of Coast to Coast AM - 12/10/20

The Best of Coast to Coast AM

18:32 min | 5 months ago

Charles Manson - Best of Coast to Coast AM - 12/10/20

"What's up everybody. It's jill scott. And here's one of my favorite moments from jay that ill the podcast brought to you by netflix's new film my rainey's black bottom jasim gold. She sees yes yes. She wasn't assault woman either meaning. She didn't say okay. I'll do whatever you say. Listen to a new episode of j. dot. Il the podcast every wednesday and check out my rainey's black bottom in select theaters now and on netflix. december eighteenth. This film is rated r. Support for this podcast comes from. At and t. Throughout history switching to new technology wasn't complicated. Ancient roman acquis made water fast reliable secure and nationwide electricity made candles fast reliable secure and nationwide. Today we have. At and t. five g it's fast reliable secure and nationwide put into a historical context. Yeah it's kind of a no brainer. At and t. five g. It's not complicated. Five requires compatible. Plan may not be in your area see. At dot com slash. Five g for you for details mel. Here's a highlight from coast to coast. Am on iheartradio and welcome back to coast to coast. George noory with tom. O'neil with us. Author of chaos He also wrote it with dan. Pipe in bringing. Was i close in pronouncing his name. Tom perfect. Hey talk about synchronicity. Listen to this This story just handed to us The granddaughter of charles manson victim the lobby bianca's she's forty years old was stabbed to death in her colorado home. A twenty four year old man has been arrested for the murder. unbelievable pretty tragic The family have had a rough time. I i heard from her sister after after it happened and I talked to her mom a bit but not not fence. This tragedy. tom. I wanna play this clip. That russ regan had sent us some years ago before he passed on his wife cheryl. Just send it to us again today. Kind of set. The scene for us. I before i played this audition tape of charlie manson set the scene. He was obsessed with being a musician. Wasn't he yeah yeah. I actually interviewed. Ross i didn't know he passed away. That's too bad a couple of years ago. Yeah he was how. I'm sorry recently a couple years ago. Yeah he was. I think the first one to record manson in september of sixty seven with An engineer named gary stromberg for universal. And i i'm pretty sure russ thought he was talented. Manson and Had a funny story. I don't know if he told you about the beads that he was wearing. No i don't recall that but we're going to play that clip that russ regan recorded The whole tape lasted like twenty nine minutes. I'm just gonna play a couple minutes. What you're going to hear in the beginning is charlie. Manson kind of babbling a little bit and then he starts playing his music on a guitar. Here we go lion. Yeah start turn machine okay. Yeah you know. Can't you just turn it on my go here. We're going to let it go right and take out what you want and the rest of the way. You should get a job making people. Americans was we people from the six homes down. You want in happy happy john. Let's see what was we talking about six into restless people from you. The person the line you just send things get worse. What's tv enrico bit. That's ups a portion of it. Tom my god. He had He had he had a strange giggle to himself. The denise. i've never heard that before. That's pretty amazing. I never heard him some vulnerable. Like admitting he was nervous he sounded the sounded kind of innocent. They're with that little laugh and stuff like that doesn't sound like told me he didn't see any kind of danger or violence or he said they were just a bunch of happy. Go lucky can't say did have a odd Control over the girls but he didn't see it as sinister route said and i guess they rejected him in What did he do. Flip out to you. That would part of his motive. Well the official version. Yes terry melcher who was doris. Day's on and record producer in his own right who was very successful He had auditioned mass and at the spahn ranch after meeting him. Once or twice and again this is all the official version. told manson that he thought it would be better. If a documentary film were made about him in the group and and he was going to refer a friend of his to do it and supposedly that enraged manson and meltzer had lived in the house. Where sharon tate was killed prior prior to her being there and manson chose the house according to leo see to instill fear and its former occupant terry melcher for rejecting him. I uncovered evidence that meltzer had a very different relationship with manson and it extended beyond the murders and he saw them quite extensively and A lot of documents in the book and and it took a long time to get access to police and sheriff's files. But that's the case i lay out among the many kind of anomalies of of what we've always thought of as the official version of this case. Really have at falls apart under close scrutiny. How many people did manson no in the hollywood world that you know might have been actors and actresses that We didn't know about That's debatable. I mean the ones that have admitted it or dennis wilson before he died. Neil young A few other kind of studio musicians and that type but most people claim that they had never had any encounters with them Mama cass elliot was supposed to have no i've never been able to verify that But he did get around quite a bit. In the late steve mcqueen. The great actor was invited to go to that house. The night of the murders. Yeah maybe a lot of people said they were invited that night and didn't go for whatever reason he was very close to Shine and roman and and jc. Bring the hair stylist I'm not sure. If i mean there was never gonna be a party that night It was just the people who were killed who were at the house at night. Where the only ones their time you spend a lot of investigative time in chaos talking about the prosecutor vincent bugliosi and You covered a lot of things about some of the notes he taken and things like that. Tell us a little bit about this. Do you think he screwed this up or he. He lied about something. Would what happen. I don't think he screwed it up. I think he did exactly what he had planned to do. I make an argument in the book that he was compromised That he was given the job he was pretty much unknown deputy. Da just in the office a couple years and he was handed. You know the biggest murder trial in los angeles history prior to oj and What world didn't know at the time was he had Gotten involved with was stalking someone who he thought had fathered his child. That's person happened to be His milkman and he was committing crimes he was using the. Da's office to get information. He told them he was a witness and a possible suspect and he was sending him threatening. Knows all this stuff should have caused him to not only lose his job but to be disbarred and didn't come out until well after you know believes he was already famous and running for office door a couple of other incidents like that so i You know the thesis of my book is to the murders happened because manson just randomly picked this house and these victims to start a race war. I argue that a lot of other elements involved provoking manson manipulating manson off beginning in nineteen. Sixty seven. I lay out the case that as soon as he was released from prison in sixty seven and went to san francisco. I mean his going up. There was a violation of his parole the very day he was released because he wasn't supposed leave los angeles instead of being sent back to prison. He was given a new parole officer named roger smith who was a drug researcher working at the haight ashbury free medical clinic which was opening that summer of sixty seven and roger basically look the other way as manson was committing crimes recruiting young and underage girls to his hair and had a very unusual relationship with manson. If you know the book stranger in a strange land by robert heinlein and kind of modeled. His commune after the book. The novel and in that book It's about a character comes from mars to kinda take over the world. The way manson wanted to and His protector is called jew ball. And that's a manson. The girls called roger smith the federal parole interesting to ball because he was protecting them and the relationship is as weird as oswal jack ruby and you mentioned ruby in the book i i do because when manson was going to the haight ashbury free medical clinic with the girls for them to get Treatment you know they had std's and All kinds of some of them were pregnant but he was going there for his parole meetings with roger and he had become rogers only client by the end of nineteen sixty seven into nineteen sixty eight and this is where we get into the really crazy part of the book. There was a psychiatrist. There named jolly west who some of your listeners may have heard of before he had been alleged to be part of a cis mta also pro and denied it until he died in nineteen ninety eight or nine and i uncovered documents showing that not only was he. A part of the nfl's a program which was a mind control program that the cia began in nineteen fifty two but he was the architect of it was sydney godly the main scientists and found all the letters between him and gottlieb outlining what they were gonna do it kind of parallels what manson did with his girls and what happened to the family again. It's all laid out in the book. It sounds crazy. Just synopsys inc. I quickly like that. Well i was gonna say. Is it conceivable that the cia could've even used manson to take these innocent kids who had no crime records in. Turn them into rabi murderers. Yeah i mean the cia was actually. Their ultimate objective was to create people. Who could be programmed kill without any awareness that they had been programmed or any memory of it. Sir hanser hand possibly. Yeah that's the one thing. We had to leave out of the book. If i'm thinking of doing a follow up. And i have a couple of chapters already Outlined on on hand and and the same cops same prosecutors in los angeles who investigated. And then you know. Try han within involved. A year later in the tate labianca case and there were a lot of parallels between the two. We have been trying to get an interview with sir hands. Her hand working with his brother muneer in his attorney william pepper. And if we're successful. I want you to come with me. Yeah that'd be great. I mean i know. Bill vapor and I've met with a bunch of times. And i know other people who are trying to get hannah new evidentiary hearing and I think he definitely. I don't think he was the one who killed robert kennedy. I think he was in the pantry. Obviously he shot at him. But i believe in the second gun. Very with ironically vince. Breglio see who's known as being an anti conspiracy person. His twenty year project was booked. Punking the john f. Kennedy conspiracy assassination conspiracy called reclaimed right. Yeah and He tried to get the robert kennedy assassination case reopened in the mid seventies arguing. That there was ample evidence of a second. i'm in. He never talked about that when he kind of changed his stance. I believe he was Paying off debts his whole career for You know he was working for. The man was something that happened between one thousand nine hundred sixty seven thousand nine hundred sixty nine when the murders were done to charlie manson because this listening to his audition and his silly little laughs. Yeah i mean that doesn't sound like a guy who's a murderer. And as you said russ regan's saudi was a okay guy y- yeah a lot of people did who met him. In the beginning. A lot of people said he was inconsequential. They could never imagine him. He really transformed in under a year from the so. You wouldn't look twice at you. Know he was small he was silly. I mean the giggling and stuff. I have heard him talk and geico like that. Before but he transformed from that into this like Evil unitech lunatic. Yeah and such a short amount of time and also he learned in some way how to control the minds and actions and behavior more than thirty people and under two years. And that's another thing. When i was reading his book the first time. When i got the magazine assignment. I kinda got stuck on a paragraph in the epilogue we're bully. Oc admits that even after he's put them all away and you know prison and they had all gotten most of them have gotten death sentences that were later overturned by the state supreme court but He said the one thing. We might never know how manson was able to learn how to get people to kill on command. He goes and he writes us in the book. Was it something he learned in prison or was it something he was taught by others. It's something i think we'll never know and that's kind of that was my starting point When i started reporting this was trying to find out what happened and bullying us. You really only gives a few pages to the first year. Sixty seven that manson was out of prison when he became charlie manson cult leader. And that seems suspicious to me. That's why spend a lotta time up in san francisco interviewing people there and going and getting archival documents Reports from the medical people at the haight ashbury free medical clinic and on confronting roger. Smith is parole officer. David smith who ran the clinic. Well you can tell. A lot in the is tom. In the eyes of charlie manson after he was arrested and put in jail on some of the clips. We've seen over the years. He looks like pure evil. I mean pure evil doesn't look like the eyes of a guy that are russ regan would have seen. Yeah exactly and unfortunately. I interviewed him a few times but when i interviewed him he wasn't allowed to have visitors always misbehaving so he'd be in solitary confinement and he'd be allowed out like one night a week to do phone calls. How close did you get to him. It was phone calls. I interviewed him two or three times on. The phone wasn't allowed to visit him in person than five or six years later. I tried again but he refused to talk to me because he heard some of the stuff. I've been doing You know he wasn't supposed to be communicating with his former followers but he was and they were telling him the kind of questions. I was asking then. I got some death threats. From from his handlers. Outside of prison. I hear watching. Who was one of the True murderers in this episode Became a minister got married. Had kids got divorced. had conjugal visits in prison and my god but he had seventeen paroles tonight. I don't think he'll ever get out. Yeah yeah he. has four children and is divorced and bruce davis another convicted manson family member. He's also a christian minister in prison. It's amazing amazing. Indeed listen to more coast to coast. Am every weeknight at one am eastern and go to coast to coast am dot com for more. I'm debbie brown. The host of the dropping gems podcast a podcast about the depth and potential personal growth. No one's journey is the same as the next but the magic of being human shows up in the things we have in common our capacity for love pain joy sadness togetherness and solitude are things that make us perfectly imperfect and i want to explore with you how we can live our best through it. All the new season of dropping gems is available. Now listen dropping. Jams on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm kate berlin. I'm jacqueline novak. We're comedians best friends and consumerist hogs hemorrhaging cash in the wellness world. That's why we made a podcast pook with the big money players network and iheartradio though we suffer from no ailments. We are looking to heal for us. Salvation lies in the next product practice or potion. This is their hobby. This is our hell. This is our naked desire for free products. This is who that's pwg pook on iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

manson russ regan terry melcher rainey charlie manson Tom perfect netflix gary stromberg Manson meltzer spahn ranch haight ashbury free medical cl Mama cass elliot tom roger smith George noory jill scott cia los angeles sharon tate
Charles Manson Pt. 2: Helter Skelter

Crimes of Passion

56:28 min | 1 year ago

Charles Manson Pt. 2: Helter Skelter

"Due to the graphic nature of these crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder sexual assault drug drug use and violence that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen when Suzanne struthers fifteen year old brother call to tell her. Nobody was answering the door at their mother and stepfather's house. She didn't believe him at first. It was after nine P._M.. And they weren't the type to go out carousing late at night but he insisted she come over. Suzanne told herself. It was probably nothing one of his jokes that she didn't understand but she couldn't shake her rattled nerves she. He took her boyfriend Joe to go investigate. When Suzanne arrived at her parents house she retrieved the spare key and unlocked the back door? Joe suggested that she she weighed in the kitchen while he checked the living room as she waited. Suzanne looked around and spotted a pile of watermelon rinds in the sink. The site of the mess us in her mother's normally meet kitchen gave Suzanne chill a moment later Joe hurried back into the kitchen seeing his face Suzanne's museum worry turned to panic. He wouldn't tell her what he saw in the living room only that they had to leave right now as Joe Joe guided her to the back door. Suzanne glanced at the refrigerator startled scrawled on the door and red paint was a strange message coach helter skelter hi I'm Lena hops and this is crimes of passion apar- cast original the legal definition of a crime of passion is a violent crime that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences but in this show we explore passionate crimes primes how does a marriage progress from husband and wife to killer and victim or killer and co-conspirator if there's visit them mind between love and hate what manipulates our relationships and a deadly results last week we explorer Charles Manson's troubled troubled childhood in and out of juvenile facilities as an adult. He spent another ten years in prison but despite his criminal tendencies Charles had an amazing talent for manipulating people when he was released from prison in nineteen sixty seven Charles used this power of manipulation addition to attract a following of lost vulnerable people who were desperate for love and guidance he called his group of two dozen disciples the family family under Charles Guidance they spent their day squatting at Spahn ranch and seamy valley taking drugs participating in group sex and listening to Charles Lecture about a coming race war which he called helter skelter but by July of nineteen sixty nine Charles's thoughts and actions were turning increasingly violent after a dispute with a drug dealer named lots of Papa Charles went to lots of poppas apartment can't shot him and left him for dead but this shooting was only the start of the brutality Charles perpetuated that summer in this episode we'll talk about how Charles directed his followers to kill for him how the group began to splinter in the aftermath of the violence and how the family family was finally brought to justice. This episode is part of our casts summer of Sixty Nine Event July twenty second through August night. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen eighteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals will be digging into the fallout of emo KS assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Cold Old and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new park has presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach reach out on facebook and Instagram podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to assist to leave a five star review where ever you're listening it really does help the last week we explored Charles Manson's troubled childhood in and out of juvenile facilities as an adult. He spent another another ten years in prison but despite his criminal tendencies Charles had an amazing talent for manipulating people when he was released from prison in nineteen sixty seven Charles used his power of manipulation to attract a following of lost vulnerable people who were desperate for love love and guidance he called his group of two dozen disciples the family under Charles's guidance they spent their day squatting at spahn ranch in Seamy Amy Valley taking drugs participating in group sex and listening to Charles Lecture about a coming race war which he called helter skelter but by July of nineteen sixty nine Charles thoughts and actions were turning increasingly violent after dispute with a drug dealer her name Martha Papa Charles went to lots of poppas apartment shot him and left him for dead but this shooting was only the start of the brutality Liberty Charles perpetuated that summer in this episode we'll talk about how Charles directed his followers to kill for him how the group began to splinter in in the aftermath of the violence and how the family was finally brought to justice after Charles gunned down on lots of Papa in July of nineteen sixty nine he bragged to his followers about the shooting but he wrongly believed lots of Papa was affiliated with the Black Panthers Panthers and worried that the panthers might come after the family and Revenge Charles became fixated on his plan to flee death valley and Wade out helter authors kilter in isolated safety there Charles said they would hide in a pit until the world returned to order but before they could make take their trip to the desert the family needed to raise some funds Charles Thaad one potential source of income might be thirty four year old music teacher and drug dealer dealer Gary Henman and men was friendly with the family sometimes letting them crash at his house but Charles was an interested in the man's friendship <music> with Henman as with all Charles's relationships Charles only cared about how he could use the other person to benefit himself this. This was also how Charles felt about twenty one year old musician Bobby beausoleil bobby wasn't an official member of the family but he hung out at the ranch frequently frequently listen to Charles Lectures about helter skelter and was romantically involved with some of the family women in July of nineteen sixty nine nine Charles learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed name but the drugs were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to to help fund the families 'cause in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman Bliss particularly attracted to Manson family member eligible Bailey so he suggested she go along to help her swayed Henman but L. A. Joe asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the family members arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring the Henman's apartment instead Charleston family members Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers they he held the drug dealer up at gunpoint while the spurn Bobby Beausoleil beat him senseless eventually henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles goals as payment but when bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days Bobby Mary Brenner and Susan Atkins held Gary Hinman hostage in his home. They continue to make demands demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him when Henman told them he'd go to the police bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology please note that I am not a licenced psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism that people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists his point to countless examples of people falling under a violent Colt influence and going on to do the unthinkable licensed mental health counselor stephen in Hassen use the rise about Keta and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder these extremist extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus them mentality polity Charles Manson uses same tactics family members look to Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance some even thought he he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs news of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles Girls gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman then dipped his hand and the dying man's blood head to draw on the wall he wrote political piggy and then painted pawprint Charles had instructed bobby to leave evidence incriminating the Black Panthers he hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kick off helter skelter then then the group left taking Henman's cars with them back at spahn ranch. Susan Atkins boasted to the other women about the murder but not all the family members were impressed. Ella Jo Bailey felt sick to her stomach. She couldn't believe that the people she saw every day. People she loved could casually admit to murder she had heard about Charlie early shooting and Black Panther a few weeks before but that hadn't hit her the same way. She figured it was just Charlie. Protecting the family hearing about Henman's death was different. She knew Henman she had been invited into his home l.. A. Joe wondered what might have happened if she hadn't refused to go back. Perhaps she could have done something to help. Henman now it was too late and she felt paralyzed. Paralyzed with guilt eligible reflected on her time with the Family Charlie had been the center of her life for nearly two years she she had once thought she'd be happy to follow Charlie's lead for the rest of her life but now she admitted that she felt differently. Perhaps it had started when Bill Vance joined the group bill was special and at some point after he arrived L. A. Joe had begun to think of him as her boyfriend but Charlie discouraged the family from forming attachments he told them that everyone belong to everyone else. Falling in love with bill was eligible first act of disobedience against Charlie now in the wake of Henman's death. L. Joe began to steal herself up for another her larger rebellion as soon as she could Bobby beausoleil decided to flee to San Francisco driving the car he had stolen from Henman but the car broke down midway there when highway highway patrol stopped to help they realized that an all points bulletin had been issued for the stolen car the officers discovered the knife bobby had used to stab hinman stashed in the cars well later they matched his fingerprints to a thumbprint left and Gary Henman's house. The officers arrested Bobby Lobby and he was charged with murder. When Charles heard about the arrest he was worried bobby? Mike confessed to everything implicating the family in the murder murder but he was also upset. The Henman's murder had it made more of an impact he had hoped to spark a media frenzy thou would initiate the coming race war so as family discussed how to deal with Bobby's of rest Charles began to work out a new plan he wanted to stage an even and more brutal murder one so shocking it would make headlines around the country Charles was sure that such an event would be enough to trigger helter skelter and as a bonus it might help bobby beausoleil. The family thought if more murders were committed while bobby was in in custody it would prove that the police had arrested the wrong man and he would be let go on the night of August eighth nineteen sixty nine Charles took family member Tex Watson aside and told him what needed to be done a year earlier when Charles was cozying up to every music industry contact attack that would tolerate him. He had pursued a relationship with music producer Terry Melcher at the time Melcher lived in a secluded house on Cielo drive live even though Melcher had moved out of the house some months before Charles reason that whoever lived there now must also be rich and famous anyone anyone who lived in a place like that must be the kind of high profile person whose death would make national news according to Charles's plan tax and a few of the family women would go to Cielo drive break into the house and murder them in his research. Stephen Harrison stated that in the most destructive colts psychological influence seeks to disrupt an individual's identity personal behavior thoughts emotions and reconstructed in the image of the leader Tex Watson win later say that he accepted Charles's plan without an argument because Manson slaw law was greater than his own conscience Charles recruited more followers to help tax twenty one year old Susan Atkins Twenty one year old Pat Krenwinkel and twenty year old Linda Ca Sabin he instructed them to obey any command techs gave but didn't tell them the goal of the mission as they got into the car. Charles called out do something witchy it was a code to replicate Gary Henman's murder and the political piggy Hegi message bobby had scrawled on the wall just after midnight on August ninth nineteen sixty nine the family arrived at the House on Cielo Drive Dr Texts instructed the women to climb over the fence once they were on the grounds techs told them the plan kill anyone they found inside coming up. We'll talk about the infamous murder spree of August ninth eighth and Tenth Nineteen Sixty nine. Have you heard about Fab fit fun. It's a women's lifestyle subscription option box filled with full-size premium beauty lifestyle fitness home and tech products and it sent right to your door with the seasonal must haves. You need need when my first facet fun box arrived. It felt like a friend had sent me a Christmas gift. All of the items are wrapped beautifully and you get to see what each product is like like based on the magazine that is included in the box. 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Despite the fact that its its flagship technology did not work Jordan Belfort also known as the wolf of Wall Street partied hard and made millions while engaging and stock doc market manipulation and Bernie Madoff Atop Wall Street market maker who operated one of the biggest Ponzi schemes of all time conning thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars spot the con- before it finds you listened to con artists search for and subscribe to con artist on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash con artists to listen now and be sure to stick around after this show to hear a clip of the first episode of Con Artists Now back to the story story just after midnight on August Ninth Nineteen sixty-nine Tex Watson Season Atkins Pat Krenwinkel and Linda Kosabe Ian drove through Benedict Canyon until they reached the house at one. Oh Five Oh Cielo drive once they got their techs gave the women the order he had received from Charles Charles Manson they were to break in and kill everyone inside after Melchior moved out thirty five year old director Roman Polanski and his wife Twenty six year old actress Sharon Tate rented the House that night Polanski was not home he was filming filming a movie in Europe but pregnant tate just two weeks away from her due date had stayed behind in Los Angeles another couple also resided the house a longtime friend of Polanski's thirty two year old Vojtech Frankowski and his girlfriend twenty five year old Abigail soldier the pair had moved in to keep sharing company before the birth on that August night Sharon had another visitor her close friend and hairstylists thirty five year old J. C. bring in addition to the main house. The property also had a smaller guest cottage. The property caretaker nineteen year old William Garretson lived in the cottage that night he had a friend over eighteen year old student. Steve Parent parent was just leaving the property around twelve fifteen a m on August ninth. When the family members heard Steve Parents car coming toward them down the driveway they hid in some bushes but as a car stopped at the front gate techs emerged holding his gun the teenager implored please? Please don't hurt me. I'm I'm your friend. I won't tell TEX ignored him. He sliced parents arm with a knife and then shot him for times. Steve Parents slumped over in the front seat dead the group pause to see if the gunfire had alerted the residents of the home but the surrounding canyons muffled the sound Texan the women continued on to the main house techs found in open window leading into the Frans Hall after slicing open the screen he told Linda to stay and keep lookout while the rest went inside in the Living Room Tex Susan in an pat found boy tech break Hausky asleep on the couch. Frankowski woke up and ask them what they wanted. Techs replied. I'm the the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business then he kicked by house-key in the head rendering him barely conscious textile the women to check the rest of the house. They found Abigail folder Sharon tate and J. C.. Bring in the bedrooms brandishing their knives. They ordered everyone to the living room. Once their tax tied up the men Jay and the still dazed for a house-key <music> Sharon tate started to cry J. shouted. Can't you see she's pregnant. As soon as Jay spoke techs tax shot him in the abdomen text demanded all the money the hostages had folder revealed that she had about seventy dollars in her purse. It's about five hundred dollars today. Tate explained that she didn't have any money in the house but she could get some knowing that Charles would be upset that if they returned to spawn ranch without much cash tex became angry J._c.. Bring grown in writhe on the floor from his gunshot that wound Tex world on him and stabbed him until he died when tate and folger's screamed in Horror Vojtech for Hausky awoke from his stupor and struggle to untie his own hands Susan Atkins leapt at him and stabbed his legs tex turned the gun on him and began to shoot but he somehow managed to break free and limped outside techs quickly caught up with him. Frankowski died with two bullet wounds Jones and fifty one stab wounds Linda. K._C._B._S. was still outside keeping lookout when they had set out that evening she thought they were going on another another creepy crawling mission not a murder spree as soon as she saw tax shoot Steve Parent she had entered a state of shock. Now she made an attempt to end the gory scene she shouted. Please make it stop people are coming but nobody was coming and tax did not stop Linda gave up she decided to hop the fence. Get away from the property and wait by their car. As for a house-key died on the Front Lawn Abigail soldier tried to break away she also tried to escape across the yard but Pat Krenwinkel in lingle caught up with her and stabbed her when tex trotted over he pointed path towards the guest cottage and told her to look inside and kill anyone one there at seemed shaken after stabbing Bolger and she only pretended to check the guest cottage telling tax at the house was empty. If the caretaker William Garretson was awake he didn't give any sign to reveal himself techs. Meanwhile continued stabbing Abigail folder later. He claimed she told him as she died. I give up. You've got me finally the murderers turned into pregnant Sharon Tate Tate Beg them to spare her. She pleaded with them to kidnap her and keep her alive just long enough to deliver her baby. The family ignored her. Susan Atkins held the sobbing woman while Tex stabbed her sixteen times when she was dead. Susan dipped a towel in her blood and wrote the worth Hig on the front door with their mission accomplished. The group left the property techs. Susan and Pat Join Linda a car and drove away when they got back to the ranch inch Charles was eager to hear about the crime in fact he wanted to see it for himself to make sure it was gruesome enough to attract media attention then he drew back to the House himself that night and made small adjustments wanting to make the crime scene as bizarre and shocking as possible he placed the towel over Jaycee brings head. He draped an American flag over Sharon Tate's body. He moved a pair of glasses to the living room when when he was finished he drove back to spahn ranch and went to bed the next Lisa also found a number of recreational drugs in the House M._D._a.. A- sheesh and marijuana perhaps the murders were the result of a drug deal L. gone bad back at spahn ranch. Susan Techs and Pat Watch the news and basked in the attention. Their crimes had received Charles wasn't satisfied. None of the reports blamed the deaths on the Black Panthers nor do they link the debts to Gary Henman's murder. The tate murders wouldn't clear Bobby Beausoleil. 's name nor would they begin helter skelter so Charles decided that more people had to the die this time it wouldn't simply issue orders from the ranch. He intended to oversee the killings himself. Charles gathered rather the same group he'd sent to Ceelo Dr Techs Susan Pat and Linda no one had told Charles that Linda ran away during during the previous night's murders and she was too afraid to object when Charles selected her for a second journey Charles also brought Nineteen Year Roll Leslie Van Houten an eighteen year old clem Grogan the group dressed in dark clothes and gathered their knives then they set out into the tonight Charles directed them to a neighborhood in Los Feliz and told them to stop next door to a house the family had been to before for parties. He's but the friend had moved out the previous fall and no one was sure why Charles pick this target he in Tex- gone out of the car and entered entered through an unlocked back door inside forty four year old Lino Lobby Yongfu and his wife thirty eight year old rosemary were asleep Lino you know in Rosemary were not rich celebrities. He ran a chain of grocery stores and she owned a dress shop. They were a well liked upper middle class couple. They had no connections to Manson or the family. When Charles Tex went into the house they found Lino Asleep on the couch? When he awoke Charles Order a text to tie the man's hands behind his back with some leather ropes he brought from the ranch Charles went into the bedroom brought out Rosemary Harry and sat her next to her husband then he retrieved pat and Leslie from the car he told techs make sure everybody he does something before? Leaving Charles Stole Rosemary's Wallet Techs put a pillowcase over Leena La Bianca as head and wrapped a lamp record around the man's neck and mouth he instructed pat and Leslie to take Rosemary into the bedroom and do the same thing to her when when they were out of sight Tech Stab Lino with a bayonet from the bedroom rosemary screamed. What are you doing to my husband? She tried to run to Lino but the lamp cords wrapped around her neck or still plugged into the wall as Rosemary strained against the cords. Pat Pat stabbed her with a kitchen knife. Then Tex came in to complete the job with his bayonet when Rosemary was dead tax return to the Living Room stabbed Lino a few more times and carved the word war into the man's stomach pat stuck an ivory handled carving fork fork in his body. They went back to the bedroom. Were techs instructed Leslie to Stab Rosemary's body following Charlie's command that everyone participate when they were finished they use blood to write messages on the wall in the living room they wrote wrote rise and death to pigs in the kitchen on the refrigerator door. Pat wrote helter skelter misspelled spelled H. E. A. L. T. R. AS TEX PAT and Leslie followed followed Charles's orders Charles led the rest of the Women Linda Clem and Susan to a denny's restaurant instill mar he told Linda Delete Rosemary's wallet and the restaurant bathroom he expected a black woman to find the wallet steal the credit cards inside and then be blamed for the law Bianca's murderer's then Charles asked them who else they might kill Charles recalled Linda telling him about a Lebanese actor named salad natter whom she met while panhandling Linda had gone back to the actors home in Santa Monica to have sex Charles asked if Linda remembered the building where the actor lived windass said yes but when Charles handed her a knife and told her she was going to find matter and slit his throat. Linda balked the bloody events of the previous night had sickened her and she did not want to be a part of more violence. She said I'm not you Charlie. Dan Charles ignored her. He needed as many notorious deaths as possible to ignite helter skelter he dropped the family members off in front front of the actor's apartment and told Linda to lead Susan and Clem to the actors door where they would kill him. Then Charles drove away way back to spawn ranch. Linda pretended to obey Charles but she purposefully took Susan and Clem to the wrong unit when a stranger answered the door. Linda backed away and told the family that she didn't remember where natter lived the group hitchhiked back to spawn on and nobody discussed what had happened. The following evening Rosemary Labianca fifteen year old son frank came home. I'm from staying at a friend's house when his mother and stepfather didn't answer the door. Frank called his twenty one year old sister Suzanne and Suzanne's boyfriend Joe Dorgan the three entered the house where they found Rosemary and Lino Bianca dead the immediately called the police when journalists I got a hold of the story they noticed the similarities between the crime scene at Cielo drive and the Law Bianca residents police however were skeptical optical Leena La Bianca had some gambling debts and investigators thought he might build some money to members of the mafia although it seemed as if if the family had gotten away with murder Charles worried about Bobby Beausoleil who was still being held for Gary Henman's death and who might confess and point like the police to Charles at any moment the week after the murders Charleston Linda Kosabe into visit Bobby in jail and give him a message to stay quiet quiet. Linda happily took her assignment Linda K._C._B._S. in skin crawl the she thought about her naievety say she had left an unhappy marriage to join the family because she thought she might find higher love with Charlie and his women she felt disgusted gusted by what she knew now the family had nothing to do with love they were just mindless robots controlled by a Madman Linda would give anything to Undo the Knights of August ninth and tenth but her only option was to move forward she had had to get out only one thing was stopping Linda from deserting the family and never looking back her young daughter. Tanya UH lived at spahn ranch to limit desperately trying to think of a way to take Tanya without raising Charlie suspicions but it it was hopeless she knew Charlie would never let them leave together. If she tried Charlie might kill her and then Tanya would be stuck with the family family forever. Leaving Tanya was the hardest thing Linda had ever done but she knew that it was the only way to get help she had had to do it to save them. Both with her decision made Linda borrowed a car and meet a show of leaving to visit Bobby at the Los Angeles Louis County jail but instead of driving south she went east. Her heart broke as the mile stretched between her and Tanya but she she willed herself to keep going. She had to reach her husband Bob in New Mexico then she would tell him everything. After after Linda reunited with her husband she told him about the murderers but she was too afraid to go to the police worried the family might hurt her daughter. She was anxious to that. The family might try to come after her but by then Charles was too busy to pursue an insubordinate family member he was hard at work preparing his followers further move to the desert coming coming up. We'll talk about the fracturing of the family in Death Valley and how the groups breakdown helped investigators and prosecutors make their case against Charles Manson now the conclusion of the story in late August of nineteen sixty nine Charles Manson decided it was time for helter skelter to begin he ordered some of his most loyal followers to carry out a series of brutal murders on August ninth and tenth killing seven people not long after the murders spawn ranch was raided by police. It had nothing to do with the tate or lobby on the murders. Police suspected the group was operating an auto theft ring on the property they had been stealing Dune buggies and motorcycles our cycles in preparation for their trek to the desert and had actually previously been rated for similar suspicions. Police took some of the family members into to custody but the charges were dropped within days for lack of evidence. Although they released the adult family members they placed the family children including Linda CA sapiens daughter Tanya into foster care when Lyndon discovered this she returned to l._a.. County to regain custody over the girl but she did not reveal anything about the murders back at the ranch Charles remained anxious about the police's raid he thought it might be a signal that someone was spilling family secrets. He blamed Donald Shorty Shea an employee of the ranch owner short he didn't care for the families presence at at the ranch and he often advised his boss to kick them out given his animosity towards Charles Short. He made a convenience ape goat some night in late August about two weeks. After the Tate Murders Charles Bruce Davis and Clem Grogan took shorty shea out into into the desert and killed him with a Stun Charles decided it was time to retreat to Death Valley National Park hundreds of miles away from civilization to wait out the coming race Horse Charles most ardent followers were thrilled that they were finally going to escape into the pit Charles had prophesied they believed that once they were inside the pit they would go through metamorphosis and take whatever form they desired but they had to locate the pit before this could happen when they reached the desert. Charles ordered them to go on daily excursions in search of the whole that would lead them to the pit each night when they returned from day of searching exhausted they would gather around a fire her take hits of acid and listen to Charles preaching about helter skelter and their new life Sharon Kay Farber a counselor with a p._H._d.. In in social work said that colts prey upon the tendency of many to rely on magical thinking which reinforces the tendency to endow the leader with omnipotent patent and magical powers the member can readily come to believe that the leader can read his mind or hear conversations at a distance many many of Charles's followers were desperate for Charles's predictions to come true they had joined Charles in the first place to escape their empty lives and now they wanted to escape from reality itself but for the family members who were not quite sold on Charles is apocalyptic predictions life even death valley was a difficult adjustment. There was no electricity or telephones they were constantly running low on food and supplies and the daily expeditions to find the pit or brutal in the desert heat as morale dropped Tex Watson grew frustrated every day. The Group failed to find the pit techs grew more doubtful of Charles claims confused and depressed. He began to fervently Ervin. Lee wished that he could erase his life with the family. After a few weeks he left the Wchs Department these suspicions lead Park Rangers and the California Highway Patrol to pay the family visit they found stolen cars including in makeshift armored vehicles with scampered to hold weapons. The officer suspicions of the Strange Group deepened on October tenth the park service a highway patrol and Inyo County Sheriff's department raided the property authorities made over a dozen arrests but they did not locate Charles by by chance he had gone back to Los Angeles a day before to try to raise some extra money and replenish their food stash Charles returned to death valley as soon as she heard about the raid perhaps panicked at the thought of his followers in custody and what they might be telling the gleese he wanted to be physically close to <unk> them while he figured out how to regain control immediately after Charles's return. The authorities raided the desert ranch again this time as California Highway Patrolman James Pursell meet a sweep inside the House he found a lit candle flickering on the table and he knew that someone must must be home herself searched the bathroom right before his eyes the door of a small cabinet by the sinks Longo been and Charles Charles Manson emerged herself said if you make one false move I'll blow your head off to which Charles replied applied. I Charles was arrested and brought to a jail in Inyo county along with the rest of the family. Once serious interogations began everything started to unravel twenty year old kitty lead singer who was pregnant with Bobby Beausoleil as baby and frustrated that she was being kept in the dark told the police everything she heard about Gary Henman's murder she also told them she had heard Susan Atkins bragging being about stabbing a man in the legs she assumed Susan was talking about Henman but he hadn't been stabbed in the legs the attack she described fit another crime better the murder of Vojtech Reich Hausky at Sharon Tate's house investigators questioned Susan who corroborated the story story admitting that she had been present for Henman's murder. Susan was subsequently booked for murder and moved to a women's prison and Los Angeles County any Susan spend the next few weeks bragging to other inmates that she had been part of the Tate Murders John R Schaffer a behavioral analyst list for the F._B._i.. Says this behavior is common stating when criminals commit crimes they feel an overwhelming need to tell someone what they dead especially if the crime required skill and cunning criminals crave recognition for their nefarious deeds Susan's fellow uh-huh inmates reported her statements to authorities while investigators were linking the family to the tate and Hinman murderers they also discovered evidence of Charles's is involvement in the lobby bianca murders the leather material of Charles's deer skin suit matched the leather ropes used to tie the hands of Rosemary and Lino Lino Lubyanka in the previous months police had conducted three separate murder investigations without seeing a link between them now <hes> with the Manson family in custody. The connections between the Tate Labianca and Henman murders were staring them in the face now that the police had found the perpetrators of the murders prosecutor Vinson Bouillaud see began to build his case against Charles he would have to rely on witness MS testimony and for this he would need to convince some of the family members to let go of their devotion to and fear of their leader breaking breaking Charles's hold over the family was a difficult process psychologist and cold expert. Margaret Singer stated that the idea of leaving a colt is often unbearable for participants. She says there is a psychological bond that becomes most difficult to sever. Perhaps Charles Charles's most bonded and devout follower was Susan Atkins who had been present for all the bloody crimes. Susan Atkins ends. I'd the prosecutors sitting across from her. He was trying to question her but it was hard to focus on him. She had to stay alert and case Charlie. We tried to send a message to her. The lawyers kept telling her that Charlie was far away in jail in Inyo County but Susan knew that Charlie was everywhere he was watching her now. You would know if Susan betrayed him. Her lawyer told her that the prosecutors accusers wanted her to testify against Charlie. He told her that if she didn't cooperate prosecutors would push for the death penalty but Susan understood what her lawyers did not death was meaningless. Only the spirit mattered and the spirit lived forever. That's what Charlie had taught her. Susan Atkins belief in Charles was unwavering but she seemed to enjoy talking about the murderers lawyers convinced her to testify in front of a grand jury in Los Angeles. Susan explained how Charles had programmed the family to do things and gave detailed descriptions of their crimes. Susan didn't seem to realize that she was incriminating Charles. She saw her her testimony. As an opportunity to proselytize about Charles's godlike powers the grand jury panel issued indictments on seven counts of murder her and one count of conspiracy to commit murder against Charles Manson Tex Watson Susan Atkins Linda Ca Sapien and Patricia Krenwinkel Leslie Van Houten was indicted on two counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. The trial began in the summer of nineteen seventy although she had testified in front of the Grand Jury Susan Atkins Refuse to testify for the prosecution at trial now now she claimed that Charles was innocent and that the family had acted alone without his help or influence but prosecutors had other witnesses to counter counter this they arranged deal with Linda Kosabe Ian who had accompanied the family on the murder missions but refused to kill anyone. Linda was granted granted immunity in exchange for her testimony. The prosecutors also secured the testimony of former family member Barbara Hoyt who had walked sixteen hours through the desert to escape them testifying against a family proved to be risky prior to the trial a family member approach Barbara era pretending to renew their friendship but then proceeded to poison Barbara with ten tabs of L._S._D.. When Barbara recovered from the overdose she was more determined than ever to testify although prosecutors manage to turn some family members into cooperative witnesses most of them remained under Charles's spell fame social psychologist Leon festinger studied similar behavior in nineteen fifties UFL Colt festinger linger noted that when the Colt Leaders Doomsday Prophesy failed the cult members became more committed rather than less festinger attributed this to cognitive dissonance writing that a person can distort her perception and the information about the world around her in order to protect her convictions during the Manson trial several of the family women gathered outside the courthouse every day singing and chanting for crowds of onlookers inside the courtroom courtroom Charles tried to disrupt the trial with a variety of antics including carving a small X. in his forehead just above his eyebrows he arrange for a family member to pass out a written statement outside the courthouse it read I have exed myself from your world? No Man or lawyer lawyer is speaking for me. I speak for myself. I am not allowed to speak with words so I have spoken with the Mark I will be wearing on my forehead forehead after he did this. The family woman appeared at the courthouse with X.'s gouged into their foreheads but the trial move forward as scheduled on March twenty ninth nineteen seventy one the jury returned a guilty verdict Charles Manson and Susan Atkins at Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten were sentenced to die in the Gas Chamber Tex Watson had a separate retrial was convicted in October of nineteen seventy one and also sentenced to death but before these sentences were carried readout California's Supreme Court voted to abolish the death penalty in nineteen seventy two Charles remained infamous in prison attracting attracting notoriety in part due to the devotion of his followers in nineteen seventy five family member Lynette squeaky Kief Romi attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford Secret Service tackled her before she could shoot Charles might not have ordered himself but many speculate that Lynette did it to impress him. She was sentenced to life in prison for the assassination attempt and paroled in two two thousand nine in recent two thousand nineteen interview. She confessed that she was still in love with Manson other followers. I did not remain faithful. Susan Atkins eventually renounced Charles and converted to Christianity. She died of cancer in two thousand eight after nearly three decades in prison Tex Watson Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten have also expressed the repudiation of Charles Charles they remain in prison today and have so far been denied parole. Charles Manson died in prison and two thousand thousand seventeen at the age of eighty three but fifty years after the Manson families crimes people remain fascinated by the colts legacy. The Manson family came together at the height of a counterculture movement that encourage young people to reject convention question authority and an embrace the ideals of peace and love Charles Manson's brutal crimes effectively destroyed the spirit of the sixties as a world came came to associate the hippie lifestyle with the wave of crime and violence but if Charles Life shows anything it's that he did not need a Hippie ideology ideology or political agenda to inspire him to violence his militias behavior began long before the nineteen sixties Charles's cousin Joanne told the following story six years old first grade. He talked the girls in his class into to beating up other boys. He doesn't like then when the principal comes to ask Charlie. Why did you do that Charlie's responses? It wasn't me they were doing what they wanted. You can't blame me for that. Thirty years later he'd use the same defense with a new group of girls. Thanks again N. for tuning into our crimes of passion summer of sixty nine special if you enjoyed this episode checkout podcasts continued retrospective into the summer of Sixty Jeanine from July twenty second through August ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode of crimes of passion next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new are cast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have ask how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is still leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast cast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time when true love meets to crime crimes of passion was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media in this part of the podcast network. It is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler with sound design by Russell Nash Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley crimes of passion is written by Christina Panties. I'm leaning Hobbs now that this episode has finished. Here's the clip of our first episode of the park cast original con artists. It's about Bernie madoff a top Wall Street market maker who operated an elaborate Ponzi scheme and conned thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars search for and subscribe to con artist on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash con artists to listen

Martha Papa Charles Charles Manson Tex Watson Susa Gary Hinman murder Susan Atkins Gary Henman Charles Tex Linda Bobby Beausoleil Charles Charlie Sharon Tate Bobby beausoleil bobby Charles Lecture Charles Charles Charles Stole Rosemary Charles Guidance Leslie Van Houten
Streaming In Place: TLOK S03E0102

The Televerse

32:50 min | 7 months ago

Streaming In Place: TLOK S03E0102

"To the television. Streaming. Of Car who everybody and welcome back streaming in place. Today, we are talking about the legend of Cora books three change episodes one and two a breath of fresh air and rebirth. So so that happened so. There's a few things obviously Zuko, very exciting. But we had to start out with. Billy. Excited for him What did you think about this? This season premiere, these two episodes and our new like relation of the return of Air Bending God what an interesting place to start the season I think these two episodes did a really nice job of setting up like wow look at this incredible thing that isn't also complicated as all things in life are and looking at all of the different ways that this thing that on the surface would seems to be nothing but a blessing can actually be a lot of things at once including a great start to a jailbreak. Like whoa that's a fun way to certain jailbreak. So I'm very excited about what that means for the season and what it says about some of the ideas and season one in particular and Yeah I was very intrigued by the premise. And also had a hard time remembering what outlandish. Guest. Was Real. Because for all I know guest boomy becomes a bender but maybe it was. Cora and Asami are like that guy. And I and I don't actually remember what else I said so. So someone. Tell me what? You talk about the Earth Kingdom, and that's where the bulk of the season half okay great. See Nailed it. Yeah very, very promising. Was this what the two of you remember do you remember a really solid start to season three? I'm sorry to put three. I. I was so very happy like the breath the fresh air rebirth. Yup for the season's like. Pay No attention to that too. Don't worry about it. We're do this now. Is this great what did you think? No I what I remembered from these two episodes. The montage of tens and trying to convince people to give up everything to become air nomad. You're gonNA love her vegetarian Diet. We have these great robes. Your best friend can be a skype bison. And none of it working and the delivery of J. K. Simmons hitting all of those is just so delightful. But I just remember that as a thing of all nodes GonNa, join the Arab nation, not even for a skype bison because. It's a lot of work. And that's why you gotta get when their babies Yay. Just. GET THEM when they're babies exactly So watching all of that. I think it's just a really great comedic montage plus the very animated. She be versions of them on the map going from village to village to find is super cute and I really really like when they do that kind of thing, it's a very good call back to the vacation. thing on the map from season to So. That is a really comedic way to get into the whole. What does it mean when you want when the culture wants you to simulate into her? And you're just like, no. No. Thank you, sir. And like that discussion I think is really really interesting. And I think of the episode does a good bit of kind of starting to tickle interrogate Teradata as a concept I'm very excited about that because that's one of the big things I remember from the season in particular is, have you convinced people to become Erdo Maths despite the fact that? Air Nomads cultures really strict compared to. All the other cultures are not this. Their. Gender segregated. Nuns go to the South go to eastern Western go to the north and south like there's a lot of stuff to kind of like dig into with that But then that triggered for me the other part about this season's air nomad stuff is everything Zaheer's. Monkey I can never remember the name of that era nomad the grew watch me And we a lot more of that as the season progresses I remember that very clearly So just the ways in which the season begins to deteriorate how you rebuild it error no Matt Culture I. Think is really interesting I'm very excited to watch all that play out but like Allison said, pan that jailbreak is much cooler than I remember being it's very good. Just. So many jailbreaks I watched this one separate from my parents and then I asked them about their reactions later in my dad's again watch sure you know we'll see that don't know about the. About the the the bad guys seem kind of whatever I was like. Okay. Did you watch the jailbreak I did that was so like the also guys like that was really cool and it's like superpower bag as they each have their own specific kind of sell to neutralize them except for as a here whose whole thing he wasn't in her bedroom before this Sukey was trapped on a mountain which seems pretty extreme for normal guy which I think kind of also tells you just how dangerous he is before he got Arab ending and also mastered immediately in two weeks which is also delightful that they dig into bit more. But? Yeah. Just the whole we've got our lava rock bender I think kinetically it's a magma bender And then a armless bender voiced by grade DC who voiced Zula in last term under. Yes at listeners alson making a big surprise on, do you at the other big celebrity cameo these two episodes real quick because polling, dynamite voices, the slacker guy who will not leave his mom's basement. Really painter. Later Hater. Tighter Bagai. Fun Guy. That's awesome. One bit of slivered casting I don't like is that we've gone from Dante Basco to the whitest. Man. Possible. Bruce Davis the voice Zuko. You. Don't get much wider like even physically the Bruce Ames he's. He's very pale. Yeah. So anyway, that's on killing about both these episodes very eager to get like really getting into the season because these has really strong like right off the bat for me. Well, it's also a lot of just. Let. Get Public City let's do something different which like like rebirth is. Just going to start this over feels like a good way to go on it and it really they hit that on the head like Assam here's a worship. Don't ask me how I have the money for it or anything don't worry about it. Two weeks that Eric Investment really really kicked hard in two weeks. Yes I'm okay. Leaving my company I don't have controlling interested anymore. anyways. So let's just go on adventure every betting on the other things. that. I really appreciate are some of the tweets with the characters in most specifically what they're doing with Moscow. I'm very on board with how awkward and. Uncertain. He is right now I'm very on board with a Cora and Asami like driving buddies like is you know and they're like, yeah. We all knew far sorry should've told you the the they handle that really well, I'm very excited the newly energized relationships that we're seeing here. Elson any thoughts on on Gorhino Asami in Monaco and all of the different dynamics yeah. I mean it's it's more interesting to be sure. But I have to tell you when Bolan Mosey DOPP and was like you're not coming with us. Let me be charming and convince you to come. No don't everybody needs space including me. Let him stay into his job for a while. This is textbook getting past an awkward breakup and still wanting to be friends you can't force it. You gotta give it room to breathe. Lead the man be a police officer for while if that's what you're really wants to do don't it's fine it's fine. There are other people can help the flip side of that those that we would not have gotten beyond the lookout for fire bender in a red scarf. Oh no here I come with my scary fire. Circa. Yeah. No I have the same response of. Just. Let him stay. Let him I mean I get that that we're going to Rehab Oh here and I'm fine with that but but link yeah, give it some time. Some time, he'll be way more endearing if he's like Hey I realized I was kind of at. Mock. Muko here I realized. That I was kind of a whole Would you like to talk about that or should we just move past it and then it'd be like we move past it and then it'd be like great. I'm never going to date anyone ever again. And then everything would be just wonderful. That's that's what I think. The central. How do you rebuild the ads if? The people who are getting air bending are not children. Who whose parents can decide to sort of? In, enroll them in like the temples in this like that lifestyle. But are instead you know grown as people with families and lives and businesses I think is a really good way to go the fact that boonies like on board I I think they did a good job with everything in this upset but. I'm waiting for and I think we really need a really. Close moment with boomy reflecting on what this means because this is a huge part of his identity being the non vendor in his family and so for him like that's got a dredge ups so much stuff avedis very excited and everything but this is gotTa Drudge of a lot of daddy issues and I'm really hoping we get that I don't remember anything specific but that doesn't mean it's not there. It's been a while. But aside from that, it's nice that boomy like fully on the team in everything but he's not giving up that flute he's not GonNa you know lose that swashbuckling jacket I think the flutes okay. The probably GonNa be the harder thing to get rid of 'cause I don't think tencent's GonNa take his flute but he's probably CSAK me low might. Will definitely take flute. Well. But. The flute, his flute in particular is a wind instrument. So wouldn't it be the ideal instrument for an Arab Bender? Good point thinking about he's GonNa be able to do that like Kenny G. circular breathing. Right he's got a real advantage as a musician now. Yeah. Can you imagine what Oh and opera singer? Who is an air bender would just like dominate for all time fifth element opera just like date night I'll just continuously. Well do we have any other threads that we want to dive in with any other distinct like they? It's a lot of setup. In this episode what we think of this spirit vines taking over a republic city. I mean I think it makes a lot of sense that you can't even get rid of them like because of how. Manipulated things like my I really liked that as a concept and I also really like it as a point of contention for core to drive her out republic city. And Slightly connected to that I like the fact that Cora has approval numbers. which is just so delightful that they're eight percent and she's so dismayed by this. And is talking to me about is like you haven't seen my little numbers It's just very sweet. But I'm also I. also have like some context for like how this plays out as well. So I don't WanNa like too much too but it is a very sort of good exciting development that allows the to continue to live with. Cords decision even if the show right now anyway is more negatively interested in the effects of Mama convergence directly as opposed to chorus decision to allow the spirit world to begin to overlap. Or to mingle with the human world again. Because that's what they're much more interested in at least initially. They have not explained why there are spirit vines in. Republic City when there is not a portal in republic city well, it because like he was like, did he grew the vines like duct his hands under the thing? an under the ocean they started growing in the finale in the big battle. Forgotten that so like you see them kind of take over that miniature Tokyo Tower that they have set up a bunch of other stuff. But yeah, there's no way to get rid of him. And creates like we those weird neighborhood pockets that we saw in will continue to see us over the show But Yeah Yeah. Marcus I don't blame the people being angry with Cora and no. Of course, not like their home is gone The building got a yeah. Of course, they're upset. She didn't anticipate this but also, who else are you going to blame? You know? Well, she's also not helped by the fact that I appreciate that this university doubling down on all politicians garbage because. We. Because well that that's a theme that resonates right now. And at an IT makes a lot of sense that the president who just sees him as like I can't get involved in almost brought about the destruction of everything as a result would be like look at the Avatar it's her fault. It's her fault that this happened her and like yes but. As as we all like to say, the situation is a lot more nuance than that and there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for nuance and political conversations in Republic City or indeed any corner of this universe. So Boo to that guy. what do we think of our new recruits? Chi are obviously not a going to be a standard for Lynn's younger selves absolutely not no horse knows. No. Barrier No. Pill going to happen. They're absolutely not not even a little bit not a love interest for Genera Norris not. Not in a door to door seeing seeing the first boy that is not her her brother ever A. Yeah. Nothing like that? No Allison how'd you feel about Chi-? Brief right it was. It was brief and I feel like I got the job done I. was like, Okay I get your deal. I got his deal way before any of the characters did which I assume not a unique experience like. You're a scam. Got It. Got It. You're on the Lam let's do this. I'm all about it. Artful dodger me all the way up like, yes bring it So I i. also love it when animated characters blush. So one of my very favorite little specific things and a really good animated character blush is a thing of beauty in that Gina's little tiny just right here cheek clutch was a delight. So I'm into it I'm into I mean just a couple of episodes ago. I, was talking about how? We the show didn't seem interested in exploring the fact that Moscow and Berlin have this stability that they didn't have as they were when they were kids and what it would mean for them to potentially lose this privilege that they've encountered for Asami what it's like for her to go from the sort of lap of luxury to be struggling a little bit although apparently maybe not So I'm glad to see this element of it does economic sort of class element introduced into the conversation and what that could mean for the future of the air nation because that idea is very interesting. To like what it, what it is going to cost people to build their nation what will the our nation look like as a result? Anyway very cool. Yeah. Marquez tens of his definitely, not a salesman and the gender segregation will not help them with increasing their numbers and there's actually a good point because there aren't enough air bending masters for them to be able to split into different temples. So for potentially the first time in their history I mean I don't think you can count currently with Millo Genera Nikki it will it won't be gender segregated and that's gotTa have a significant impact. And yet they're obviously were very centered on the trying to recruit people to many but it's still like it's a way of eight vendors. There's like eight of them, right? It's still not a lot. So getting to a point where they can even just find. Have the numbers where they can. Have a temple will be a significant say and how what are the dynamics going to be for the accolades who don't have Air Bandai and what have like Really accolades at one of the temples develop bending the other ones don't trauma the personal injury in stakes it he meal on a cure dealing with offscreen this entire season that one of the ACOLYTES got Ruben, but we never get to see that story. Or none of the. Got Air Bending but the person who does the catering dead and now they're all furious. Yeah. Very upset. The vegetarian caterer. Yep Yup. though now I'm just thinking about the impact of air bending on baking and your options and how that would just lead to perfect souffles every single time. So make they make good pies apparently like okay. So here's here's an anecdote. There is a winemaker in the champagne region of France called Kanar Duchenne. It's one of my favorite wines. If you see, it's a good value it's like. It's it's like forty dollars, champagne tastes like eighty dollars champagne but does not taste like one hundred, twenty dollars champagne don't get excited but it's very good and it is so called because a barrel maker I. Think it was Canard now I never remember. which which is a cooper. Is a cooper. Think Right. Met the daughter of a Vintner who grew champagne grams. The family name was Duchenne and they met and fell in love and decided to make barrels and put wine in them together for the rest of their lives. It feels like it air bender in a fire bender should fall in love and then bake forever. And the navy also then like employ like always have an a bender as an intern to make sure that things stay moist. Also, the run. Barbecue. Yes see ooh, the implications. It's very exciting, very exciting here ads during a place Any final thoughts about these episodes any other now that we have a little sense of the structure of what's happening this season and the other were looking forward to all I. Do WanNa, know how since feeling about what we know about the here and his gang of Criminals that. Because on and meanwhile. And how? Like. It's a really strong introduction does here but I'm very curious to see here what else? Thinks about Zahir in particular you know 'cause he? He gets the most development out of every, all his his band of miscreants. Well I have to admit that I don't have any thoughts yet because there isn't a ton in the way of development other than it being very cool introduction for that sort of element of the story but it feels a little bit like at the end of O- Franchise launching movie you get the cut scene in the middle of the credits at where you see like whoever the big bad for the next. Movie is going to be or several movies down or or your marvel, and you just show me four seconds of Thanos every five years and expect that that's going to do it for me somehow. So whatever the case it felt like that like it felt like they were priming need to be engaged as opposed to actually engaging me all that much and I was super engaged with the sequences a whole. But I think, I, want a way to sort of see what the deal is but I'm very into the voice performance I was very the animation he was sort of immediately terrifying in like A. Oh, you know I also in a prison break kind of sense but the energy of that sequence was a lot like a very dangerous criminal got a toothbrush fifteen minutes ago when we haven't seen him since. Right. Like he got or a paper clip or something else incredibly innocuous and not scary but you saw them get that nobody else did. So now you understand the stakes and you sort of marvel at their prowess. And power while also being terrified of them like it felt very much like that, which is great but I don't know that I know all that much him as a person yet. Although he probably should've gotten his girlfriend I. Well as we'll find out not. Not In the next up. So I don't know it's the fourth episode Because I do not in the third episode at all. Because they have really big Fri-. Third episode. but. Yeah. I'm GONNA remark Marcus prediction here is that his current prediction is that here or his girlfriend who I assume fire bender is the descendant of Zula and that's they're after the Avatar which is the big thing is going to make is that Zahir and his gang. The big thing that we know is that they wanNA kill the Avatar. Like that's what he says he's going to do. That's what Zuko worried about is like you need to were you need to warn the Avatar because this is bad and I think that that's a big way of sort of doing. threat. Escalations Zuko thinks they're bad news. In addition to these ridiculous prisons that they're all and And I think that is the thing wool bookmark. Some of that other stuff that work is said for when we meet the girlfriend. Marcus. Says they might have killed ing that's another theory How died so yeah, we'll see Yeah. It's great to season. Go back. It's really fun. We don't get much with him and s going to have to be something that you know wait withhold judgment on, but it was cool to see his dragon. Yeah, you have to the dragon now he's dragging now 'cause Zucca wasn't cool enough already. Yeah that was very cool. I mean I know those points are all great. And you are right and that is very interesting. But I one hundred percent and got stuck on Zuko and then stopped thinking around. No no fair. And then dragon and it circuited my brain and that is really all I could focus on with with relation to that character man when I saw that I who I got so excited. Very. Glad to have another of our friends back. However fleetingly. Yeah, and this isn't the end of Zuko in the season just like you know. He shows up a couple more times I think. To. Kind of provide. Con Spreads in context off Greg All. I like that the dragons are back enough that one of them is able to just hang out with Hugo to be a taxi opposite dial. Like there's enough dragons that that you know in the world at this point, you know seventy later that they aren't just like the two that hang out in the dragon indicate in mountain and occasionally come out to do some choreograph by dancing with Zuganov. Secret secret sect of Iraq lights of actually raising dragons in secret for the Palestine Hundred Years the baby dragon parcel. Princess Strawberry Spice Head is the the the baby dragon. Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, I'm excited for this season. It seems like we're on page off to a good start a confident solid started I'm excited to talk about what comes next yet it's got that It's got that. Soft? Relaunch energy. which I always like when it's well-timed. Yeah. When it's necessary certainly is appreciated. Well, tomorrow we're going back to talk about episodes three and four episodes three. A of book three is the Earth Queen ant four is in harm's way. So any predictions? Elson the Earth Choline Okay so Tough, had two kids. Let's. Say Twins. So Lynn has a twin and she's the queen of the Earth Kingdom and she. Is. Cool and smart and fun I. Don't know That's a terrible guess but I'm guessing you I mean in more likely. She is a descendant of boom, but you know what go? Just go with me. We're just GONNA. We're going to say there's another little bit. There's another little bay out there or Grownup Bay. Vong and and she's awesome. and then in harm's way. the. Magma. Bender gets. A volcano which is near a town, which we know is a an Avatar, the last air bender classics so they decide to like recreate history. And then Cora has to stop the lava. And as result, no, one can touch the floor. So you're saying floors lava the floor I'm saying the floor is lava Alcalay. Marcus says the Old Earth King made his bear his successor. So the Earth Queens Bear. Oh I really like I guess it's very good I. I gotTa be honest I forgot about the earth king and his bare until this exact moment. Yes that's good though I'm sticking whatever I'm sticking my guess I was a vaguely sort of almost correct on one thing. So. I'm will be almost sort of vaguely correct on one thing. And then Osama Asami incorrupt, kiss okay. I'm GONNA will that into being with guest starred John Leguizamo. Oldest Getty's so we'll see we'll see what happens Yeah. Okay. Anything or you on I'm looking I mean the earth episode I think is really good I think that looking I'm looking at my review for in harm's way and just going like apparently I thought it was fine. so That was fine Yep. Yeah. Apparently I thought it was fine. Again, I'm going to be rewatching all of these episodes for the first time. This time through. So some of this isn't gonNA stick but I'm excited I also forgot the nickelodeon started dropping episodes like two episodes a week. At this point. Reasons that will get into a couple of days they see stopped airing it on TV. It was an online only show. Yeah. It became it became you could only buy digitally or you can watch the NICKELODEON website from episode ten offered. This is like Fox levels of nonsense. Yeah. Wait until we really get into it because it's really ridiculous I, you you luck into. Like like a potential all timer and then. You just. Do this. Allah. Sorry. I. Did a Double Double Bird. There you have no idea. Wait until we get to see some four. Point, okay. How do you? What? I don't understand how you spend the money that they clearly had to spend to get Mir back and to make it look good and then they don't air it. That's what I don't guess. It would be like if it would be like if HBO was like we have the wire, you can you can view it as a comic Strip and Sundays in USA Today and that's the only way enjoy the wire. Thank you for the cloud. Yes extract it basically like there's we'll get into it when we hit upset late nine. But it's just it's real weird and then there's other substances in four that is also real weird like really really weird. But there's also a range of conspiracy theories about actual reasons for things that are happening so. Now let's say in season four, they'll be upset where we do three because one of the is a straight up clip show yesterday since to make an actual clip show. Yes. An animated clip show. That list there's Allison's making a very confused face. To face, hold on like Meta Wink Wink format of clip show. Now, action eclipse show actual clip show. There's a little bit of original animation in there but yeah so cora will be like that reminds me of the time that we went to passing say and then yeah. Those were the days. Oh, are they going to do it golden girls style? Do they sit in a kitchen and eat cheesecake I'll. Show. I. Think it's more family ties style where they sit around photo album and flip through it all. I honestly don't remember with framing device for the show is there is some original animation in it, but it is like papa video situation. Yeah. But it's it's it's a cook show all the way through. Racing else's yet happened for like two weeks. You're not be you this for like two weeks. If he's percolate, you back your brain until Ray. I'm definitely going to forget about it because my short term memory is garbage right now. So I'll get to have this experience all over again, which means we will to it's thank you for that. Thank. Markaz unless they were trying to launch their own streaming streaming service, it doesn't make sense and then there would be like five years too early. Yes. If they could because they were taught by a combine combos interested in watching its own streaming service. Yeah. So anyways until tomorrow thank you Marcus for hanging with us in the zoom. Thank you everyone for listening Talk.

Cora Marcus Zuko Republic City Allison Asami Elson Moscow J. K. Simmons Lynn Billy Teradata Dante Basco Bruce Ames Tokyo Tower tencent Kenny G.
John & Ken Show Hour 3 (02/02)

John and Ken on Demand

32:00 min | 3 months ago

John & Ken Show Hour 3 (02/02)

"John and ken show john kobylt ken. Chiampou kfi am supporting live everywhere on the iheartradio app. Welcome everybody who have one more chance on this. Show today to get the keyword to text in for the thousand dollar chance. That's coming up in about fifteen minutes of poll has come out that gavin newsom down to forty six percent approval rating. More and more people are interested in recall. We'll be talking about that at five. Oh five along with the numbers on vaccines injected into arms and california versus recall signatures collected. Tomorrow will be a big day because wednesday is when the recall people put out their official update on signatures the former san diego. Kevin falkiner as many official. He's in the race to replace. Newsom recall or year in the actual general election for governor the los angeles skull uprising. This is a group of parents who are sick of the schools being closed. It's almost been a year and It's been a disaster by all accounts and the younger the kids. The bigger the disaster. I heard the other day the that the percentage of kids even bother to go online is really low and the ones who do go online. Most of them pay no attention. And it's it's been terrible. Know i heard today. They were looking for some kind of precedent for this new orleans. Hurricane katrina the schools were closed for a year. They found when the kids came back. It's a bit. it was if as it was if they were gone three years. Oh you know. I wondered about that. What would be the boss here. In terms of something quantitative it was as if they were gone three years. That's because the kids just forgot everything. Oh so a imagine imagine. Your kid loses three years of education because it builds on itself over time. And there's a lot of repetition that lasts from one grade to the next the next and this is terrible. This is the biggest disaster. It's completely unnecessary. The science proves that the data proves that. But what we have here. Guide austin beutner running The l. a. School district actually. He's not running anything. It's the teacher's union. The teachers union cruelly has decided that they're not showing up for work. Just keep sending the checks Let's get ross. Novi on he has one of the founders of la school uprising as parents who are saying enough. Ross how are you. Hey thanks for having me on the show really really appreciate it all right. What's what's your group about here. So i am a parent of two kids. I have a sixteen year old daughter and a fourteen year old son and they were really into learning. They were doing well And then the shutdown happened few months in you. Start to see all the problems. They have They're depressed. Stars have psychological issues and you talk to other parents difference going through the same thing and it's just getting worse and worse so to certain point. I said well someone's got to stop this insanity and i started this nonpartisan. Grassroots collection of parents were furious. And we're all pushing to reopen in person learning in los angeles this semester. For all those wish to attend you attended if you have a high risk parents. If i was teacher. If you're just scared okay. Don't come back but for the rest of us. Let's get back to doing school right well. Beauty at a press conference yesterday said no way. No hurry nothing's opening. Of course not i mean he. He hasn't done anything. And you look around the country in the world and else is opening up. I mean everyone in los angeles things like how do we figure this out. I don't know pick a phone. Miami called germany. The uk france anywhere else. That have done it. There's nothing to figure out. Ross how much of this delay on. The teacher's union united teachers los angeles no fan of return into the classroom either. Look there's definitely. I'm gonna say like i work in tv. I'm part of a union. But what are union. Did with been different. Is we worked with the studios and producers and how to get back safely people tall day on days when we went back and figured it out aberrations to figure it out and i do not see that happening But ultimately you know newsom in general managers they gotta get it under control so right one. That can make this happen. He's the one that charring the parties together and work this out. And you're right. They're just giving up. It seems like i e- well because they don't wanna teach. I mean it's clear they don't wanna teach because it's been proven and added many other districts around the country as certainly the private schools that you can do it and no there's no outbreak bay drought breaks. The virus simply hasn't happened. They have a lot of research they have. They've hundreds of thousands of kids have been studied over this. It just doesn't happen so once you've been presented with that case. Everybody's still saying no you have to say okay. Then it's not about the viruses. It is about something else here. Well been they've a terrible job presenting case right. So i mean i feel like i worked on the office back today and i feel like we have the gun from under mifflin actually running our pandemic. You got with the same hair as new author angela. It makes no sense. And then i told him just in the back mumbling doing anything. That's the cruelly running our. He's like how many folks do you have your los angeles school uprising group. I'm glad i got to laugh at you so we you know it's like i don't even watch the office but it's a good one one of my sons episode three times over concord. I've seen a lot of that. Yeah it's okay. Good good humana quite your voice inside of quality so now we have like about. Three thousand people participate through different facebook groups through petitions. You know it's it's a weird way to organize reach out across all these platforms. And i have people in every part of the city of that smart doctors from ucla. We've got a lot of motivated. Parents are sick of nothing getting done. Well talk about what you said. You have two kids in a unified. Yeah a sixteen year. Old girl. Who i mean that's tough enough anyway as a parent and now you're gonna lock her up nine months. I mean it's like caging a tiger and my fourteen year old son who's a freshman who's never stepped foot on his campus. Yeah i know and the depression only the missing the structure of school. And then you start worrying about you know your future. You know what college you're going to get into. Are you going to be qualified to go anywhere. And then in the loss of all the adolescent rituals just being with your friends meeting members of the opposite sex in a going through the normal development in life is all shut down. And you're what you're in your room looking at a wall i. There's a lot of depression going on with with with with a lot of kids of all ages. So i don't know if you guys were this way but i found myself at that age like fifteen sixteen you figure out like what are you good at. What are you into like doing clubs activities association all those things and none of these kids are blossoming. Now they're just stuck inside doing the worst thing just on screen any to talk in their head. Yeah really bad yeah it. It's terrible and and it looks like nobody cares. Beauty doesn't care. Teacher's union doesn't care. Garcetti doesn't care newsom care. They know all this mental damage is going this emotional damage. They know. everybody's gonna come in and be two or three years behind intellectually handling the work they know of this. They're told that every day don't care they don't wanna take the political risk going against the teachers union. That's what it is and that's what it is to stick up for the principle which is so obvious to the rest of the teachers. Union pays every politician. They signed every campaign. And if you're not with them then they fund your opponent and you're dead principles. Their political life is more important than the lives of your children. I think you hit the nail on the head and that's why we started with union. But we're going to go through all these. Take them all down because when you get parents upset you push our busy lives to have to focus on this to be doing this job other things. I want to be doing all my talking to. At fort of ed meetings now boring. Those at meetings are awful. Now i gotta sit through them. Talk we're going to go after all these people who have the worst catastrophe of kids that i could ever remember well in addition so we're regaining people every day and we're gonna do a bunch of calling campaigns. We're really just bond each of these individual people. We've i'm also part of a statewide group. That's putting its attention on newsom open schools california and we're gonna do Rallies at a certain point also and they're gonna be creative stuff. I'm not a guy likes to sit on the street corner with a sign. I wanna do things that really changed the math. And move the needle well. I've looked at elliott school uprising. Dot com to get a lot of information in there. And it's also you have ways to help pick at least three involving how people can join the movement ross. I think we're gonna be talking to you again. Sounds like You may be on to something here. It's it's the only way to go so you're doing. You're doing great work air and anytime you need us this call. I appreciate the attention if any parents still frustrated and others other people out there doing the fight. So thank you guys for letting me talk. That's ross the navy. He's the founder of l. A. school uprising. And that's the website l. a. school uprising dot com. They are asking for austin. Beutner to leave has school superintendent and they want safe reopening of schools now sued and is he said. Talk to the other states. Where they're doing it. Find out how to do it safely to get off the ball. Here do something. I cannot believe how inert and ineffective austin beutner is a. He should be sh- yellen all day and night into every media microphone can find challenging the teacher's union and telling the stop this nonsense in fact what they ought to do outta do what ronald reagan did with the air traffic controllers forty years ago where he broke that union they. They went on strike and he said fine. You're all fired just fire and anybody who wants to teach show up at the teachers will show up. Anyway trainees will show up. All kinds of people are out of work or qualified to teach. Just just just bust the whole place. The judges sorted out. We'll tell you what they are doing. A quote successfully la unified. You'll have a chance to two thousand dollars. Stand by for the keyword to text. Johnny can't kfi. John and ken show john kobylt. Ken chiampou cam. I am six forty. You can text to win now for your chance at a thousand bucks text. Nationwide keyword hope h. o. p. e. two hundred two hundred you'll get a confirmation text and info standard data and message rates apply and this nationwide contest. That's hope to two hundred. Two hundred brings answer. It might be the money likely coming from the five one three area code. Next chance to win at six twenty with tim. Conway new keyword. We've an opportunity after the news at four thirty to talk to the father of a man who was murdered by a gang member in a premeditated assault is still money. And the reason we're talking more importantly is because towards gascon. The la county district attorney has decided that he's not going to pursue the special enhancements. Which could put this gang killer away for a much longer time. This is part of gascons directives issued when he took office back in december is like a story every day every week about what he's doing to dismantle real criminal justice in la county. We're going to talk about the mob ryan after the news at four thirty about this terrible terrible story we were just talking about the la unified school district. We had a listener. Come on the show. Who's making an effort to organize parents against school. Superintendent austin beutner to get those schools reopened or announcing yesterday that There are no hurry to do that. They're not ready. What is what is the story here. I why can't he at least be honest and say. The teacher's union doesn't wanna teach why why can't why can't he can't do some be honest about this. He was condensing around a couple of days ago. The teacher's union they don't want to teach it's something union. It's the teachers. Union is the teachers. They don't wanna show up for work and a lot of other people are a lot of people much more dangerous situations are. This isn't dangerous. It's proven by the science and data. I i you know. And the thing is and this is really sick. Part in l. a. eighty percent of the kids are in poverty. They're mostly minority kids. Parents lot of them don't speak english lot of marnie citizens. Those parents are intimidated and afraid to fight. Now that's what it is and so the teachers are taking advantage of. These parents were compromised by their lack of legal status their lack of english language skills and the just the general fear. They have through all this. But i mean you don't see any media taken taken on the teacher's union no politicians. I mean every single politician in this state is bought and paid for by the teachers unions. Every single one. That's why i mean. Can you imagine a whole year. There's no school a whole year and then we're getting only stories about all the depression and the mental illness and the intellectual disability. And now they're going to be three years behind when they finally come back and it goes on and on okay so wow among the rope. The wo- crowd the pandemic of victory over concerns that the most disadvantaged children are falling the furthest behind within by the way. The one thing lost was proud of this week. Is that la unified. School district has provided this number. I couldn't get over one hundred million meals okay. Does that show you how poor they are. Wow the kids got one hundred million meals for some reason. The parents are so poor. They can't provide food. This was the grab and go program that started last year during the pandemic eighty percent of la unified school district. Students come from live in poverty. Eighty percent there are six hundred thousand. Students enrolled in la unified school district. So you can see. This is what we're talking about the other day with regards to neighborhoods that have been stricken with covid. Nineteen we have a large immigrant population living in poverty because they take low wage jobs. That was what employers wanted right the low wage labor but living in homes that are very crowded. This experiment is worked really well. The illegal immigration led to all these people getting abused by the employers. They're paid garbage wages. They're leaving ten people to a room. Everybody got sick. Some of them died. The kids have been out of school. I don't wanna hear any of these fake phony idiot. Politicians start talking about well you know. We have inequality gap but aj education and in the quality gap in wages. You don't really care. You never would've allowed this to happen if you actually cared. That's just a talking point to run for office. Raise money same thing with the activist groups. You don't hearing activist groups complaining right got. How many minority activist groups are their children activist. Groups are there you notice. They're not saying squat about this. They're saying anything no criticism because they're fake and their phony and they don't care about the kids. Don't care about minority kids. They have care about poor kids. They don't care about any of it they just use it as a campaign issue to gain power and to raise money into enrich themselves. When we come back another parentis coming on the show. Bob ryan is gonna come on and talk about his son. Bobby ryan who was murdered along with another man is double murder by a gang member who wanted to steal their money and the update is the la county district attorney. George gascon is dropping special enhancements against this accused gang member which could lead to his release at a much younger age. More coming up john and ken. Kfi john and ken show john kobylt. Ken chiampou kfi am six. Forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. Today there was supposed to be a court. Hearing the la county association of deputy district attorneys had filed a lawsuit against the new la county da. George gaskin over his directives. Many of which they are dangerous will lead to dangerous people getting out of jail prison much sooner than they would've because one of the big directives was to drop special enhancements special circumstances charges even against murderers. If you can believe it and then on the backside of this the prosecutors are not to go to parole hearings and plead with the pro board to keep the inmate in prison. Another director from gascon and one of the stories we played last week was from bill malaysian at fox eleven dealing with special circumstance trump that were dropped against accused gang member a double murderer under gascons reforms. It takes us back to the end of twenty seventeen where this man is accused of murdering two men who lured to his home so he could rob money from them. Bobby ryan jacob. Dominguez were the two victims Ryan had four thousand dollars cash that he had gotten from an insurance payout. After his car was totaled gang member knew he had the money lured him to the house and eventually shot both men to death of then carjacked a van and drove up to victorville bodies in the desert. So we're going to tell you the worst of the worst. Gonna talk with bob ryan and he was in bill malusis report His son was one of the two murdered and gascon taking away. These enhancements which would lead to a very long prison term is scott. Bob obviously very upset. Bob ryan welcome to john and ken show. Thank you thank you for having me on your show today can you. Can you explain for the first won't go. You go ahead talk you. You say what you buy just kind of say. You know the whole basis to our whole Meeting here is to talk about a lot. About george lasko. This man is coming into los angeles county and putting on a one man show and he's not representing what the victims feel. Only what the criminal feel. We feel like we've been robbed from our Any any chance of justice we have with this man Los angeles county is about to become the most dangerous county in the in the nation if he gets to keep on going and we can have these horrible crimes with absolutely almost no consequences. Were you there when the judge agreed to drop these enhancements where you on the On the call. Yes we have been asked to to read a statement. And i think i said to you today I save for myself. But also for rachel domingos the grandmother of the younger boys jacob which was eighteen at the time of the murder. I we both read our statements in court but being perfectly honest. I don't think even listened to a word we say. I don't think it meant a thing. he was more concerned with doing. Was what george going wanted. And i really honestly. I don't think he cared about our stories one bit. He didn't even look at us when you read the verdict. What's the name of this judge It's rob be like bob and i don't know how you pronounce it blaze. I just be as in victor. I l. e. v. a. and he just had no interest in in what you had to say i am i'm amazed at the lack of interest in sensitivity to this on the part of gas cone and on the part of this judge. It is pretty shocking. That they're just dismissing your position. Here with totally shocking. When our first. Whenever case i m to be Back in december of two thousand seventeen after the arrest of this gangster which are already in custody for previous crimes that he committed so quite easy to arrest him. Money is already in jail You know we. We were told right in the beginning. This was the death penalty case. Yes we might get the death penalty and this is what we're looking for and then we find out that governor newsom said we can no longer how definitely but we can have special enhancements which means possible a life without possibility of parole. Okay so we swallow that pill. I'm okay with that. Now that's okay then only go into court last week and be denied that now. Now it's what maybe twenty years and he's at a prison correct and he's already served three show he'd be on in seventeen years Would put him on the streets back on the streets again The leader of the gang at forty years old. I guess at forty years old is very young to be back on the streets. After you've murdered two people was brutally murdered him. I mean he wasn't nicer body shot in the head and then mp the rest of it weapon into my son's torso and then created them. Like common trash took him out to victorville and the desert dump them like somebody would up trash in the desert in the dirt covered them up with the curtains set up of house and the body were discovered for almost a week. Laying there in the dirk was raymond gonzales. A friend of your son. No he had been an acquaintance Apparently from having some pills and my son had created a A habit of taking the pills. And i believe that's what that's what the business was. You get more of pills. See how your son would buy pills from gonzalez correct correct. This gang is known for selling drugs in that area right and that's what he was doing in my yeah okay. He had a little bit of an addiction problem. That doesn't mean that you deserve to die To be honest with you. Bobby had an appointment in two days two more days if he could have lived after the shooting. He had a bad opening for a long-term Rehab thing but he never got to do that. you know. Jacob domingos big goal. He wanted to be a marine. You never got to be that you know the boys never about fathers. They never had a family. Did they miss out on so much. Yeah i was. I was asking because your your son does seem like a good guy. And i wondered why he would even know Radio that's what it was the dependency on the pills. And and of course he had boasted about x. Amount of money enough to pay for the bills. He was getting and then. Of course raymond gonzalez cooked heart. Well we need that to this. Murder was strictly one hundred percent holiday generally for greed greed. Only that that gang probably has the next day it was gone. And that's your boys lost their lives over greed or four thousand dollars. Have you been able to talk to guests. Gone anyone in his office. Any any of the prosecutors. You're supposed to handle this case. No no they. They have had zero They've had zero have plenty of opportunities but they haven't taken any opportunity to talk to me. You only people. I hear them talking to or victims families and and how happy some of these victims their loved ones. You're coming home after committing a horrible crime. Now they're coming home. This is so psychotic this is so show chris. We appreciate your talking to our condolences at the loss of your son bobby and this outrage and hopefully there are other judges that don't let gas. Do this dropping enhancements. Were sorry this judge wouldn't do it in your son's case but we're glad you're you're you're speaking out about this. Thank you for coming on. Well we are we. Have you know matt murphy. And it seemed cooley on our side and or not giving up. We're gonna fight on for my son and jacobs live keep fighting and keep making it public there. We'll have you back will elements beg you so much for the interview. I really appreciate it and hope. Good word will get out by bob ryan. His son bobby was murdered by a gang member. In fact he killed two men dumped their bodies in the desert to steal money and the development is that guests gone does not want special circumstances premeditated lying in. Wait all that kinda stuff. So the murderer could be out in twenty years when he's still younger than fifty. We got more coming up. John and ken show kfi. John and ken show john kobylt and ken chiampou. Kfi am six forty live everywhere on the iheartradio app. Go well hang around. We give your daily update on the number of vaccinations that have been administered in california versus signatures collected on the recall. A new attempt. And there's news on that including the official announcement for the former san diego mayor kevin falkiner that he's into replace newsom whether it's this year or next year and pick a lot to talk about in the five o'clock hour we've been talking about a. County district attorney. George guests gone whose name comes up on our show probably several times a week specifically since he took office in december and issued a whole bunch of new directives. We were just talking to a grieving. Father whose son was murdered by a gang member and his son was dumped his body in the desert Gascons people decided to drop special circumstances allegations against this gang member in this double murder which could make him eligible for parole in. What is now probably pat seventeen years because he's been in prison for three years murder murdering two people. You'll be out in seventeen years you'll be forty. This is what gas gone doing. Another one of these directives tells prosecutors. They're not to show up at parole hearings. In order to make the case to the parole board that the inmate should not be released. Nbc news did a story that this is already affecting if you can believe this. Let's actually coming from channel four here locally eric. Leonard and andrew blank stein. This is affecting the manson murders. There was one by the name of bruce davis and there was a california boorda. Parole hearing for this killer this month and a woman by the name of k. louis joined the video conference. Call her cousin. Gary hinman was tortured and killed by manson followers. Back in july of one thousand nine hundred sixty nine and for the first time that she's made this effort she learned that no one joint her she was be no prosecution. The la county the district attorney's office to make the case that this guy should not be released. She was on her own a manson killer guests. Scone will not even have exceptions. His people show up to make the case for a manson killer to remain in prison. This poor woman k. Mart is eighty one years old eighty one years old and she had to do this by yourself. I the only good news is. The davis has gotten paroled six times but newsom and other governors keep saying no but that may not happen forever or until the person dies. So why would you do that. Debra tate quoted to remember her sister. Sharon tate probably one of the most famous people killed by the manson followers. She said my jaw drops. I'm outraged and we've had her on the show many times. She has been front and center trying to fight the release of any of these manson members. She's not going to get any helpful. La county da's office. Listen to this wack job who works for gas gone alex bastion. He's a special adviser. He's claiming the prosecutors role ends at sentencing. There's a tug of war between public safety versus equity and bastion says his. Aw office is now focused. On providing trauma informed services when a heart wrenching crime occurs. What does that mean. i don't know i've never heard of this. What do you do. You have a psycho who committed the kind of crimes committed you. You have to get the psycho in in prison until he dies preferably you should kill the psycho but if you're not to kill a at least keep them in prison. Now listen to this. This is the new philosophy in any case where an individual has spent nearly a half century in prison. The parole board has likely reviewed generations of behavioral health evaluations and has determined that a nearly eighty year old. Elderly man is not the same person he was when he was thirty years of age. The people's interest in continued incarceration and extraordinary cost. Taxpayers is likely to have informed. They're released decision finally bastion told. Nbc news that we have. What's called a victim advocate who can attend the virtual hearing but the woman we talked about martin lee said no told her about someone like now participating in the hearings there was no victim at. You could offer it to me you. Have you have an office full of sociopaths. Working with guests gone. They don't care. This is not about having a different philosophy. This is a bet people for cold blooded and don't care. they have no interest in your victim status there knowing criminals. Yeah they're on the side of criminals. It's been it's been a a hostile takeover of the justice system by gas going in his gang. This is like a gang and they're holding. The hostages are the Victims or their surviving family members. I when we come back. We'll give you the daily update on vaccines versus recall signatures new numbers in for the vaccines john and ken show. Debra mark has the news. kfi am six forty.

la county la unified school district austin beutner los angeles gascon newsom john kobylt ken Ken chiampou john kobylt ken Kevin falkiner la school ross Garcetti depression fort of ed Ross elliott school
The Steelers Preview, Part 2: The Steelers offseason soap opera continues

Behind the Steel Curtain

29:08 min | 2 months ago

The Steelers Preview, Part 2: The Steelers offseason soap opera continues

"Aright pittsburgh steelers fans welcome back to the second part of the steelers preview. I'm jeff hartman co editor of behind the curtain. Dot com joining me as always brian. Anthony davis and dave scofield guys. We just spent a lotta time talking about ben roethlisberger but one thing that really struck me with kevin colbert. Comments was conroy. Comments he made about mason rudolph Some might say that he was just kind of towing the company line but he really spoke glowingly of his Hey ease growing as a quarterback. He was very pleased. What he saw against cleveland guys. Is this just blowing smoke. Or we legitimately unavowed. Kevin colbert suggesting that. Dvd have something in mason rudolph. And i'm i'm sure as i say this. The the live chats can literally explode because those people do not think that mason rudolph has it that he is literally just another backup quarterback brian. How do you view mason rudolph after twenty twenty this is nothing but mick jagger it's lip service you've got to protect your plan e mason off his probably plan b at quarterback right now because they know something kevin colbert said before. I think he's pushing ben out the door. He's trying to nudge them. Not because it's been because it's that contract and that's exactly what they're trying to do and if they do that they're probably going a year with mason rudolph in the probably reserved doing that. So if you think ben's gone and they're gonna go out and train for sam darnold or are they going to do something else. They're gonna bring another another guy in no they are going to. They already know. Mason rudolph's the guy. If ben's not here in so you've gotta start playing that guy up and saying hey. We've got something special waiting in the wings. Wink wink if ben's not here you know he's really made some strides. You've got one sample size. One game to really see what kind of strides he's made. You had zero preseason games with this guy now. They see a lot in practice. I'm sure but you've got to do that. You can't go out and say well. You mason kinda sucks. But we got him so i mean i guess we'll we'll be good within the bengals. No you you tell everybody that. Hey this is what's happening no matter what it is if my gosh if david schwimmer left the cast of friends years ago and they were bringing another friend like the cousin to ron cousin. Rhonda ring in on friends. They're gonna talk about how great coys advance. Sorry but do cousins from the juice of hazards great. I'm glad you did that. Yeah they talked about these guys. They're going to be awesome. And you're gonna love him and no one and they brought up brought back looking bo. You can't say well these guys art tom. Whoa pat and and the other guy john schneider. They're not this these guys but they kinda suck but it's only got if you saying that you lose so no you're gonna save mason's awesome you. You don't know what you've been missing. David your thoughts. I don't know. I'm just enjoying all the other culture references and everything. I think brian's right this is a would you. This is the first year in a long time. I mean ever pretty much ben rothlisberger. I'm last year. You weren't sure because the elbow and what happened a year ago. Kevin colbert comes on. Says he might be better with his elbow. They have always been ever since he took over the starter in his rookie year from that seat from that off season on the bench the guy the guy benz the guy knowing there's a chance to benz now going to be the guy you can't just go out and crush the soul guy you know you've got a you've got to make sure your your you know what does that make sense if you know what i mean. Absolutely okay just like that really you. You've gotta can't go out there and be like hey we're we're riding with bannon and you know and everything else and of course they wanna talk rough because they know there is a decent chance week one that that's their starter. That's their next alternative. I don't know. I do think if anyone's going to know about mesa drive is going to be done. Because he we know he got every wednesday practice wrath this past year except for leading into the playoffs. Because ross perot is at wednesday's often said amaze rudolph is the guy know they didn't have The preseason i don't know. I don't know i have another question for y'all and this is something that colbert. I wrote this article for the website. When's day thursday morning. I'm sorry it was basically about how kobe was asked directly about his contract and he kind of deflected they said you're going year to year so your contract goes up until after this draft after the nfl draft his when his contract is either up or it gets renewed and he was like well. Now's the time to talk about. My contract is teams. Aren't good enough only have won a playoff game since sixteen yadda yadda yadda and so what he does. Thoughts on. kevin colbert. Do you think he comes back and brian mentioned this earlier. If he does decide that i'm done i'm retiring. Is it a foregone conclusion that someone like. Oh marquan takes over or did they actually look outside the organization brian. Brian go ahead well if the coaching search for any assistant coaches is an indication that now they're gonna omar khan the reason. I say that they did bring a new coach in. Because you you brought in your quarterbacks coach to be your your offensive coordinator so you've got. You don't have assistant really an assistant. Quarterbacks coach that you can't promote 'cause that's what they do get rid of your line coach. Bring the assist in it. That's what they they've done a lot of lately so you know. I really think that they are. They're looking they already have omar khan's name re the stencil ready to put on the parking lot and for his parking space. They're they're ready to do that so does he come back. He's not here in two years. He might be here for one more season. But i think next year. We're talking about the promotion of omar. Okay dave thoughts on colbert's future and if l. marquan era parent. This is what these guys do tomlin. Deflects talk about his contract all the time. It's just something you don't want to talk about. What the media. You don't wanna do those things in that way. I'm not looking that much into it I think omar khan is likely replacement as long as he still there so it really depends on how much longer colbert goes you know. And i mean i the last. I don't want to get burned by this. Because when mike month check left i said that one thing. You don't want to lose deal lose both mike. Much check-in and sean cigarettes. Because you wanna make sure you can keep one of them because people are gonna start looking for sorrento for their offense of like and they didn't turn out too good so i don't want i don't wanna do save with marquan and just say that he's definitely someone said this dealer's nothing's better than we do. But i think he will have a legitimate shot position as long as he's still with the steelers and not pulled away by someone else. I all right. Do we attributed i dave i do i do. Let's do it. let's do. I knew it. So you can. I bring up one thing that we that we did the first half and i wanted to say something there and it was the whole notion just wanted to remind people of you had brought up the aisle. They might wanna do contracts differently. The more i thought about it. I'm like they just buy one planted out that they don't all end at the same time i mentioned. That's not only the steelers have nineteen free agents. Eight of their top eleven guys. What comes to their salary. Cap hit for this year though this is including patsy and mcdonald. We're coming into their last year. I mean eight out of the top eleven. So you're talking about all those guys going into their last year and all these free agents happening at the same time it just made perfect storm and you kind of need a time better than that in the future so just wanted to throw that out there. All right so trivia i i. I'm probably not going to be able to stop brian on this at all. But we'll see gentlemen. We lost we. We lost the legend with since the last show. You guys you guys know who we lost. We lost one of the captains in markey's pouncey that he'll be he'll he'll always be remembered as dealer he'll be a great steeler and everything else. I will still wear my number fifty three jersey with pride. The question is who was the last person to wear number fifty. Three marquees pouncey to. Oh i know. I think i know agit clark. Hagans that would be v necks. The last person out. I was gonna talk about it so i guess brian it would be bruce davis and that would be correct because i was going to say if you needed. Hit those like well. If you read by dra- two thousand eight draft class article today. I didn't say the number. I didn't so it number war but he was one of the people in their hand can change ariba yet linebacker. Ucla third round. Yeah out of ucla. One year with the steelers was only active for like five games. He he just. He was a defensive end in college and just didn't really transition while the being an outside linebacker three or four And of course the steelers had lots of good outside linebackers at the time but my other question was going to be. I started looking at all these players. I'm like wow. They're all linebackers. I was only able to find one other player for the steelers. That was just an offensive lineman and the reason i say that is because you know back in the forties you guys were played offensive line and linebacker just the way it work but the found someone that was just an offensive lineman that wore the number fifty three for the steelers. Do you have any idea who it is. And if you don't have a really good hint for you. I no idea the brian wright fifty three offensive linemen uh-huh. I'm struggling with it. I'll take the hint and almost hit. He was number fifty three as a rookie and then changed his number. And then how many seasons one then after five seasons of worrying his new number change yet. Another number hosea the number. And i can give you the numbers he was. He went from fifty three to seventy four and then from seventy four to sixty five and he started in a suitable. I'm going to say rape penny and that would be correct. I was gonna say say dick addiction would wear three numbers. He's kind of guy. Actually i really wanted to. I've really really wanted to to to frame it up to ask the question to get one of the other number fifty. Three's because what the answer that other one would have been dirt winston. Let's not dad. Yeah that's not a bad name. Either dick shiner. But we're number fifty three. Did you listen to my. Let's my other show. I did he. Actually he's writer divan he's a writer burner but very good very good brian. If i know. I know i've want together so i i'm sorry i could come up. Something really bizarre. Real quick with its. I'm just trying to get. I'm trying to get jeff. Let's dick shiner. More buzz nutter. Buzz nutter is good. The dixon like legendary name. He's in the so that's awesome. I think the guy. He follows me on twitter. He always puts a question the mail bag and stuff from his burner account. Dick shiners burner. I think he has a picture of him. Learned says he seventeen seventeen. Yep he's got a picture old dick shiner there on his avatar. Whatever you call it on twitter so they get for man. Hey every time that guy we're gonna have to say jeff you've just been shining shining. Well there's someone. I on youtube. That has frank webs Something like frank still alive. Oh goodness all right. Lives range ads. Yes is his name. Really frank frank. Sprite shirts frank. Yeah okay frank. Weber era wasn't he forty. Oh my gosh okay. When it get you guys take on something here. This is for the other show that i do that. I can't talk about on this. Show the modern. Yeah that's right. I finished with my heart to heart segment. And i talked about change guys. It is a realistic possibility that within the coming years. Maybe after this year the sealers could be without kevin colbert. Mike tomlin can janda's lights work if he wants to retire and stepped away if he just wants to play out his current contract maybe he pulls a bill cower and says i want to go to tv. Which i think he'd be graded by the way or in. Ben rothlisberger could be gone. Holy cow think about that for a second. Think about the massive amount of change. This organization can undergo in just the next few years I literally spent a few minutes talking about it. Just thinking they that's it's gonna it would completely different the way they do things i mean. Omar khan year. He's been with the steelers forever but he's gonna run things his way he might do things different. And it's like people expect Adrian klemm to do things. The way that sean threat did is clearly. You've never been in a position where you're sitting there saying. If i were in charge. I d doing it a whole other way. You know what i mean. So what do you think about. The potential change could be happening with the steelers. You know coming up in the next one to three years. Down the road brian. I say your role with it you. I if if you can get the Age in a position where it's not all just rip the band aid off completely and you know there's gonna be a lot of change this year but if you can get it to where it's gradual and it keeps on going then you're able to roll with it and you keep things going. The reason i'm saying that is because a lot of people. Were afraid. That as soon as ben goes. This is a situation in pittsburgh where it's going to be a complete rebuild. Does not have to be a complete rebuild if you approach the quarterback situation right whenever he does leave when everybody leaves if you approach it right and you just don't say Everybody leave now. There's there's there's a perception right now that because marquee spouse he's gone that david decastro is going to say i'm lebron and big was going to say i'm leaving. We think big house leaving anyways because his contract's up and then ben's going to leave big marquee slept. But here's the thing about it. Those guys aren't basing decisions on the fact that they're buddies leaving and so a lot of people think about that that all these guys are going to be a mass exodus because one guy goes. Because you've got to rebuild and change. You can do a rebuild the right way when it's not a rebuild it becomes a reload and i think that's what the steelers are trying to set themselves up to do try to reload this gun and keep it going and they've done a pretty good job in the past doing the point. Dave what are your thoughts. I don't you see tomlin taking off anytime soon. I you. I look at his family situation. Okay his son. Dino is in college playing for the university of maryland. He's got another son. That's getting ready to leave. He is a family man. You just have to wonder if maybe he's going to get to the point where he'd rather go and watch his sons play football or you wanna do and no one thought the kaur was gonna leave either in. He said he's just it's it's it's time i feel like with kaur was. It was the same old message. I've i've always said for years. Once he won the super bowl he didn't know what to say anymore because it would always been the same message and they finally won. It was kind of like you. Now what so. You finally catch that carrot. You don't know what to do. But i honestly could see. I'm not saying. I predicted but i could see it happening. I mean though you're thinking about cower left and what we all thought right away but then we found out more about why cower left yes and that made a lot of sense it really did. So i mean that's why i i don't know about tom i think he's going to be the one that's the longest out of every one. Although it's funny that you know people people are going to be up in arms. Because they're saying you know here's the problem you've got a buyer blah blah but that that's just kinda how it goes i mean it's going to be interesting to see how things would work out but i wanna i wanna ask you another question. Okay if you're if you're a coach or gm or something like kevin. Colbert is through the draft. Do you really want to go out on the twenty twenty season. I'll talk about how things worked out for the steelers. I'm just talking about how things were in general or do you think that alone would be. you know. i wanna come back in two thousand twenty one and see if we can play in fraud fans again. I want to be there in twenty twenty one. And you know even with ben rothlisberger. Does he want the though the strangeness of this last season to be his last one i mean. I'm kinda surprised. Pouncey decided that but his twin brother just kind of waiting for him. If you know what. I mean So do you think factors at all. I have is. I'm not gonna say this on the air. But i can tell you later i think pounds. He stepped away. It's not really football related. But with ben said this on the other show that i do that. I can't talk show which is one of says that take has more zim for me though. I think that that's that's gonna be why. Dan's gonna wanna come back. Do you really want your last game to be that wild card game. Yeah you through five hundred. Yeah you completed with however. Many bit has an empty stadium. You turned it over four times. You're teams should have. I mean my gosh. He only turned over to and they probably win. And they've they advance on. Do you really want that season to be your last. You rehab your butt off to come back and play that year no fans and then you're done. I think. Ben definitely wants to come back. And i don't think that's ever been. I don't think that's a question at all inside at the beginning of the show but we should have. I don't think that ben wanting to play is even be in question. I think he absolutely wants to play. But will they want him back at that price point or will. He sign an extension to help the team. All those different things You have to wonder you have to wonder how this season mike. You said. They've not with waited ended. But just to how crazy it was if that doesn't have some players saying i'm not going out like that brian. What's your take on. All that the only benz not going. I've been saying this for weeks. Fans not going on his own accord all right. And i'm not talking about a honda accord under saying ban is not leaving. He wants to stay. He definitely does not want to go anywhere. It's if the steelers want to keep him it. I even more after talking earlier in the show in the first half. I even more think the steelers are ready to part ways. They just don't know how to do do it. Benz the girlfriend that is going to make all the concessions that he can stay. He's going to do whatever he can to keep you here. You want taco tuesday even on wednesday going to make sure that you have tacos. He's gonna do whatever you lucky. Go play poker with the guys. He's going to do that. He is going to do whatever you can to stick around. Does he wanna leave it. No hey dan marino. He left after sixty three to seven or like tobacco in the playoffs. Really wasn't a his choice. At that point it could have been. I don't know the exactly everything that went on there and miami. But i'm saying when the team says it's time for you to go. It's time for you to go. They they already talking about their new girlfriend mason you. They're already talking about that. You know ben's doing everything he can to hold on. So i don't think it's really i feel for bending the situation guy wants to stay. I don't know if the steelers want him to stay anymore. See i see. Ben is being more of the wife wants a pre nup than i do the person. Let's go play poker with your buddies but that's just me. He was a prenuptial agreement. About what you do this. I'm gonna to get that Okay we need. We need michael beck we we we need to mean of the of of the guy walking with the girl but turner back look at a girl. That's what we need to describe. You know that that one. You know it's the whole thing of well. I'm mike crushes this person. But i'm with this person. Never heard calling ninety s tonight. Yeah i i have said this before. I'll say it again. I i have predicted. This is going to be an absolutely crazy off season and it already has been. I mean when you think about the retirement of vance mcdonald you. The retirement of marquees pouncey. You've got This stuff with rothlisberger to intensify dave at march fifteenth that he's do a signing bonus march twentieth march twenty. I've heard march nineteenth like that's the day three if you count the seventy day one. I'm pretty sure the twentieth now that they put in tampering period. I never know if these numbers start dan or if they start with a league year starts. I don't know i think. The tampering periods on the fifteenth and then the seventeenth is a new league year. Which is when all the deals become official. But it's really anti-climactic all the deals already done in announce and everything. It's just strange so all right. Let's finish this out of ryan dealing final thoughts. My final thought is this. You say it's going to be crazy. I think it's gonna be even crazier with stuff coming out of left field. Something happened this week for me. That came out of left field. That no one's really talking way too much about and it's juju trying to get. Jj watt to come join his brothers. So when i hear something like that. I'm thinking what he. What kind of posturing is he doing. you know. so there's not just the colbert and ben staff edmark. Leshan marquees retiring. I have thrown his real name. Because i love on the. There's so much stuff going on. But there's gonna be some real real crazy woodwork stuff coming out and that that might be a little taste of some of the craziness for next week. Who knows it seems like every week. There's been a bunch of. It's a bunch of news every week. Dave what's your final thoughts. My final thoughts. I'm gonna sit what it comes down to one. Btr benjamin taught benjamin todd rothlisberger. I don't think it's a lot of what you hear with the fans and everything is like. Oh beds done. he's you know. Look at what i'm like. This is still the same quarterback that we were praising on as the streak started although we knew that there were flaws yes. It ended badly and and things of that nature. I don't think ben season finished up and the steelers thinking that he's he can't play quarterback anymore is is nearly the factor of is ben willing to do with our new offensive system. I think that is more. You know. other factor. They need then to come in and buy into it and endorse it and and use it with others and it's got to be with with less of the salary kathy that he has so for. You know if you're if you're listening to the people out there screaming on social media about about that part of ben rothlisberger. That's not what it's about. What the steelers. I mean and my opinion i think it's more about. Its he the right guy to do the things that they are wanting to do with their new offensive coordinator and different things like that moving forward. I agree my final thoughts. Are i hope that the steelers are willing and ready to put an end to this. Ben talk one way or the other Get a deal done. Get a two year extension and one year extension. Whatever the case may be it done free after space that you know what you have available to you going into the free agency period I just think that having this linger on is not going to be good for anyone. In ultimately it can lead to can lead to a lot of bad several. Put it that way. In terms of the the salary cap things we talked about the first segment so all right very good Gentlemen thank you very much for good show. Great live chad in their of today tonight on facebook and on youtube. If you're on youtube please like the show. Subscribe were over seven thousand subscribers. Now we i think seven seven or six it seven. Isn't that guys it's okay. Yes so subscribe to the channel. If you're listening on audio and you didn't know he had a youtube channel youtube dot com surge. bts's steelers radio liking subscribe. We appreciate all that in wherever you get your podcast Macias get my. Let's ride podcast. Everyone who has a friday. Dave stat geek. Every thursday michael backs live mike on tuesday mornings as well as all these afternoon. Podcast and more search dealer buying steel curtain average podcasts. I follow and you miss a thing. Dave sent us out. That's way to finish it. We'll see you next week. Another steelers preview tickets.

mason rudolph Kevin colbert steelers brian omar khan ben ben rothlisberger dick shiner marquan mason colbert buzz nutter jeff hartman dave scofield sam darnold ron cousin Rhonda ring amaze rudolph Benz agit clark
Cults Bites: Psychological Manipulation

Cults

28:17 min | 1 year ago

Cults Bites: Psychological Manipulation

"Hi Vanessa and I have some exciting news for you. Cults is now airing episodes twice a week every Friday. You'll hear cults crime bites where you'll get a brief episode on a true crime theme that's related to the stories on this show is hosted by my co host and good friend Greg and it's a fantastic listening experience. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to podcast crime bites. We wanted to give our listeners. Some additional content to help them dive even deeper into the true crime world every week. Take in addition to your normal colts episode. Were exploring the most fascinating true crime themes covered across the podcast network. We've collected short clips from some some of our most popular podcast originals to help us explore ideas like motivation method and madness and show how interconnected the true crime world world really is you can find the original episodes of these for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. A list of episodes that we used will be posted in the episode description today. We're discussing cases of psychological manipulation. What tactics to criminals use to deceive coerce coerce and exert control over their victims? Why does it work? And most importantly what are the dangerous consequences of these types of mental domination psychiatrist Harvey Saint Clair defined psychological manipulation as a psychosocial maneuver which uses aggressiveness Restiveness Cleverness and deception to influence others so they will give gratification to the aggressor this gratification. Whether that being taking hostage cultivating followers or seducing murder victim is the driving force behind the criminals manipulative actions. They desire to gain absolute control over their prey. Prey Psychologists George Simon identified many tactics manipulators used to dominate their victims such as intense flattery. Playing the victim to to gain sympathy and undermining victims perception of reality through gas lighting. So who do manipulators target. How do they select the right person? PERSON TO FALL PREY TO THEIR SCHEME DR. Harriet breaker identified. The most common traits victims of manipulation possess among them are an eagerness to please these low self reliance desire to earn acceptance of blurry sense of identity and a fear of disapproval in our clips. Today will walk through a variety righty of criminal manipulators and see how they identify these traits victims. We'll start with a clip it from podcast original crimes of passion covering one of the most well known cases of manipulation in true crime history. The Manson family by manipulating in group and out group dynamics in the late nineteen sixties murderer and cult leader Charles Manson radicalized as followers and cultivated and intense devotion that propelled the family to do his bidding while the most famous killings committed by the Manson family where the Tate Lubyanka murders in August of nineteen. sixty-nine their first victim was drug dealer. Gary Hinman hints murder was the catalyst for a string of brutal. Oh killings carried out by the Manson family in the summer of sixty nine in July of nineteen sixty nine Charles learned. The two men were in the midst of argument. Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed that the drugs were tainted tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund the families because in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him Charles knew that Henman was particularly attracted to Manson family member L.. Joe Bayly so. He suggested she go along to help. Persuade Henman but L. A.. Joe Asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests. That visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the family members. Arguing over which guns and weapons. They would bring Henman's apartment instead. Charleston family members. Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers. They held the drug dealer up up at gunpoint. While the spurn Bobby Beausoleil beat him senseless eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment. But when Bobby called Charles let him know he wasn't satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days. Bobby Mary Brenner and Susan. Atkins held Gary Hinman hostage. In his home they continue to make demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him. When Henman told them he'd go to the gleese bobby was spooked? He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology. cleese note that I am not a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. The the American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism. That people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless examples of people falling under a violent cult influence and going on to do the unthinkable licensed mental health. Counselor Stephen Hasson use we use the rise of al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder. These extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus them and Talapity. Charles Charles Manson uses same tactics. Family members looked Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance. Some even thought he was the reincarnation nation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against rich and powerful pigs of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman then dipped his hand in the dying man's blood to draw on the wall he wrote a little piggy and then painted a pawprint. Charles had instructed Bobby to leave evidence incriminating donating the Black Panthers. He hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter. Then the group left after taking Henman's cars with them in this episode covering the Manson Family Gary Hinman murder was only the first in a series of killings soon after the family slaughtered actress Sharon Tate and eight other innocent people all in a bid to kick-start Manson's prophesied race wars but Manson's use of fear and violence was an opposition to many other criminals the HIPPIE era instead they capitalized on the prevailing philosophy of peace and love in this next clip from cults we examined one of the most iconic psychedelic cults of the Nineteen Seventy S. The source family unlike Charles Manson the source families charismatic leader. Jim Baker. You're relied on ideas. Like enlightenment and free love to bind. His disciples to him like Manson Baker was at the center of the source family but instead of acting as a warrior he became their spiritual father offering them love and wisdom in exchange for their loyalty ultimately however this manipulation installation created an all consuming dynamic of extreme dependency between Baker and his disciples what appeared to be a mutually beneficial relationship. was actually in the service of Baker's Crowing Ego Jim Baker typically responded to complex problems by running away from them but this time he didn't cut and run this could be because as psychoanalyst. Daniel Shaw points out in his book. Traumatic narcissism relational systems of subjugation. Listen as a cult leader. Baker developed a codependent relationship with his followers. Shaw writes quote the power that parents have as God like figures to literally give life and sustain. The lives of their children leaves each human being with the memory of total dependency cult leaders tap app into and reactivate this piece of the human psyche. Followers are encouraged to become regressed and Infanta licensed to believe that their life depends pens. Unpleasing the culture and quote and just as much as the source family members needed over. He apparently needed them. According to Shaw the cult leader does not escape dependency instead he and also in many cases she comes to depend on his followers to worship and adore your him to reflect his narcissistic delusion of perfection. In March one thousand nine hundred seventy three. The fifty one year old Baker managed to find a second can home for his followers which they called the Father House a three bedroom three bathroom home. In the hills near the source restaurant it was significantly vacantly smaller than the mother house. A fact that would soon lead to deadly health risks in some ways life at the Father House went on just as it had at the mother house else. Business at the source was still booming and it still required a few dozen family members to run at each day everyone still gathered for four. Am Meditation Tation and spent much of the day cleaning while seeking enlightenment but in other ways everything changed. Baker began channeling new beliefs constantly. Instantly with an ever-expanding emphasis on his own power. He began calling himself by the Jewish name for God Yoga. He taught about the the freemasons and ancient Egyptian magic for his followers. The pursuit of enlightenment became like a whirlwind game in which no one knew the rules else in our episodes on the source family. We go on to examine how Jim Bakker's acres total control over. His followers only increased over the next two years. Eventually their numbers surged to over one hundred fifty people but when a run in with the authorities in Los Angeles forced the cult of Fleet Hawaii Baker or father yoed met his end in fatal hang gliding accident in nineteen seventy. I five for some. It was a death as glorious as Baker's life but for others it was shocking wakeup call. They realized that that for years Baker had manipulated them believing he was guiding them to total enlightenment and in turn his followers had blindly obeyed his every swim but what happens when a criminal delude themselves. into believing that they're heinous actions are truly in the best interest up there. The victim coming up. We discussed the horrifying kidnapping case of Katie Beers and explore the power of of self manipulation from violence and separatist mentality of the Manson family to the all consuming codependent dynamic of the source family criminals have relied on a variety of tactics to exert control over their victims but perhaps the most fascinating method of manipulation is one. The criminal uses on themselves denial and self delusion in our next clip from our show hostage we cover one of the most twisted cases of self delusion the abduction of Katie Beers kidnapped in nineteen ninety two nine year old Katie was kept in underground bunker chain to the wall where she suffered sexual abuse at the hands of our neighbor. John S zero or big John but unlike Charles Manson or Jim Baker Esposito committed his crimes out of the belief but he was helping his victim. Katie came from an abusive home so so esposito convinced himself that showering her with gifts and affection would make Katie happy and feel loved the Nesper. ZITO's mind he had rescued Katie Eighty from her neglectful family. And it was giving your the care and attention. She deserved but in reality he had trapped her in a literal Hell L. on earth. Sometimes big John would come into the bunker to give Katie food or toy and then suddenly the blank look would appear on his face and he would rape her one clue about big. John's mental state is how long he remained in denial about sexually abusing Katie. It took more within twenty years for big John To admit he molested Katie and even then he denied raping her. If Big John Really believed he loved children it it would have been hard for him to reconcile that with the obvious evidence he was seriously harming Katie. Which could lead to denial a psychological coping mechanism on the other hand when John Esposito did finally confess? He blamed his lawyers for telling him not to admit to touching Katie. There is one explanation. A nation that falls somewhere between extreme denial and willful cruelty Catherine Ramsland. Phd Co author of the book inside the minds of of sexual predators. Says one of the most common types of child predators is the quote fixated child offender fixated child offenders. Offenders are stuck at an early stage of psycho sexual development and rationalize away. They're abusive children as showing affection. They may know their our actions are wrong but their fixation on children overrides their moral sensibilities so John might have known he was hurting Katie. But because he was fixated fixated and felt unable to stop. He tried to convince himself he was actually helping her big John's cran gestures like the promise of a car car and a huge amount of money on her eighteenth birthday seem like further rationalizations of this abuse. He was able to convince himself that kidnapping being in sexual abuse were actually a net benefit to his victim. Big John had molested children. Before and in those cases too he cast himself as a helpful male role model in their lives. Among John esposito's victims Katie's sixteen year old maternal half brother John Beers hostage victim. Katie beers survived for seventeen days in John Esposito a bunker throughout her captivity while he tried to manipulate her into forgiving him for kidnapping her she used a variety of tactics to convince Esposito to let go. She pleaded with him if he really loved her. He'd let her leave. Grow up go to college and have a family eventually. ESPOSITO SITO turned himself into the police though it's unclear if he was motivated by guilt over his actions or fear of being caught either way he led the police released to the hidden bunker. Freeing Katie John esposito demonstrated how criminals manipulate their victims while they already have them under their control. But how do they gain a potential victims. Trust in the first place in our next clip from serial killers will examine the tactics of lust murderer her Fritz harmon or the Werewolf of Hanover Harmon killed at least twenty four men from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty four all between the the ages of ten and twenty two to lure his victims in he sometimes offered them assistance or accommodations. Several of the young men he murdered. Were runaways this made them especially vulnerable to harmon strategic kindness. He brought them home to his apartment supplied them with food and drink that once. They're guard was completely down. He savagely attacked them after getting away clean for the second time. New Confidence Fueled Harman's bloodlust so when he met seventeen year old wilhelm shelter at Hanover Station Station in one thousand nine hundred eighty three four weeks after killing Fritz Franken. He couldn't help but approached the boy by now. Harmon had a practice routine for finding suitable suitable victims. He often patrolled Hanover station under the guise of a police officer. Searching for vulnerable. Boys shoots was a young writer who had just run away from home and this made him an easy target for Harman Harman had impersonated a police officer and pretend to lend a sympathetic ear. To the boys troubles. He offered Schultz a place to stay warm meal. She'll say eagerly accepted the offers and followed Harmon to apartment. The room was small but spotless. Thoughtless after nearly getting caught for the murder of Franca just weeks prior harmon had scrubbed every inch in fact. He had been scrubbing the place with harsh chemicals so often that other tenants in the house had complained to the landlord a widow named Elizabeth Angle. But harm it had long ago explained. Ankle that he was very particular about his cleaning habits and she saw no reason to bother attendant for keeping US room tidy besides Harmon was charming angle liked him. His charm also allowed him to urge young boys like Schulte into his bed given his pleasant friendly manner. Harmon was always able to get close to his these victims without making them uncomfortable in these situations harmon especially like to ask US victims about their families. This line of questioning seemed reasonable. Coming coming from police officer but Harman's true goal was anything but noble. He needed to know if anyone would come looking for the boy according to Harman he didn't I always feel a violent urge to kill the boys. He brought back to his apartment. In some cases harmon kept young men around as errand boys for several days. He you gave them small jobs or meals until they stopped coming around other times he raped the boys but did not kill them but unfortunately for Schulte his answers made harmon confident that no one would question his disappearance Harmon pulsed. He grabbed Shilpa by the throat and held him down. He raped him and in the midst of the attack sunk his teeth into shelters Adam's apple this episode of serial killers further details. Fritz Harman's six year reign of terror as the butcher of Hanover. But during at that time the police couldn't help but notice a sharp spike in the number of missing boys and teenagers. His crimes were eventually uncovered when the bones from victims started popping up around town in rivers and fields when harmon was arrested. Police discovered stacks of young men's clothing in his apartment after killing them. He sold off their possessions for extra cash at the end his thriftiness. What's his downfall? Every part of Fritz Harman's interaction with this victim served a purpose from where he hunted to how we approach them to how he killed them he was entirely calculated in his manipulations appellations. But for some criminals their actions aren't so nearly deliberate rather their manipulations encouraged by their own dilutions. Our final clip from female criminals covers convicted murderer. Diane Downs Diane grew up in a strict religious household feeling unloved oft. She searched for ways to fill that hole her entire life. She finally thought she found the one in. Louison may carried on a serious reese affair for the better part of nineteen eighty two but Louis concerned by some Diana behavior. She needed his constant attention at affection. She he also lied about everything spinning whatever stories necessary to keep him close to her. Eventually he broke off the affair and went back to his wife. Diane and was devastated so in May of Nineteen eighty-three. She devised a plan to win. Lou Back if she made herself a victim he would have to compactor. Actor her to save her sadly she involved her three young children in the plot making them victims as well one night. Diane took the kids out for a drive then. She staged a violent carjacking on the night. Night of the shooting. May Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-three detective. Doug Welsh interview Diana at Mackenzie Wilmot. Hospital Welsh was the responding officer that night and this was his first homicide case. Diane told Welsh that she and her children had gone to visit her friend and Mark Cola a nearby town in in Oregon on their way home. She decided to take a longer route. That was more scenic even though it was growing dark as she drove her three sleeping children down down old Mohawk road a deserted country road near the Mohawk River. shaggy-haired man flagged her down making her. Stop the car. Diane God ought to ask what he wanted and he demanded she gives him her keys when she refused the man's snapped pushed her to the side reached into the car and shot the sleeping children. Diane then pretended to throw her car. Keys in the direction of the riverbank to divert the gunman's attention they struggled for a moment and he he shot her in the arm but she managed to get back in the car and race away to the hospital. Parts of the story didn't make sense to Welsh. He said quote sightseeing it seeing when it's pitch black out and why are the kids fatally or near fatally wounded and she being right handed shot in the left arm. I mean think about it it. She's the biggest threat to him. Not Three sleeping children and quote. In addition Diane's account of the events on Mohawk road were inconsistent. She told Welsh the man was bushy-haired then said that he wore a ski mask. I she said that they were attacked by one man but then she said there had been two then reverted back to one. Her evolving narrative is consistent with pathological lying the common symptom in those diagnosed with Histrionic personality. Disorder like Diane. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy according to Dr Mark. D Griffiths patients with HP will often lie as a way to enhance or facilitate silicate their dramatic and attention seeking behavior in this case with the dozens of police and doctors in the hospital focused on her. Diana justed her story to you appear more dramatic as needed while Welsh took Diane statement. Doctors fought to save the three downs children as we further outlined in the female criminals episodes detailing dying down story. She had a long long history of pathological lying though her previous lies never had such high stakes now with their children's lives on the line. Diane constructed an elaborate carjacking jacking story to explain their grave injuries however her attempts to manipulate investigators and increasing desire for their attention exposed host her increasingly convoluted delusions. Ultimately one of Diane downs. Children died from their injuries. The other two spent months in the hospital spital recovering her three year. Old Son was paralyzed from the waist. Down her oldest daughter Christie initially lost the ability to speak but but when she recovered it was her testimony at Diane's trial that center mother to prison for life while the criminals that are clips today utilize different different manipulation tactics. They all shared one common goal to gain control over their victims. We saw Dr Simon's manipulation tactics at play. Diane downs tried to make herself into a victim to manipulate police. Enter ex-boyfriend John esposito tried to use intense flattery to win Katie Beers. Affection even deceiving himself into believing he was saving her. We also saw that. These manipulators shows their victims very carefully. Paying attention to those who are are most vulnerable as laid out by Dr Breaker John. esposito victim was not only child but an abused child who desired the approval of adults for many of Fritz Harman's victims runaways vulnerable to any small amount of kindness. He showed them Jim. Baker offered identity and acceptance to its followers. I who look to Baker for Guidance Enlightenment in the end they all achieved their goal of complete domination. Thanks for tuning into podcast. Crime Bites we hope you enjoyed this episode Odom tactics of psychological manipulation. We'll be back next week with a new episode on Mother's misbehaving. We often think of mothers as the consummate nurturers charterers. Why do they sometimes hurt the ones they love most even their own children? If you'd like to listen to the episodes that we discussed today in full well simply search for our podcast. Original shows crimes of Passion Cults Hostage Serial Killers or female criminals on spotify. Not only to spotify already all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals for free from your your phone desktop or smart speaker and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. I'll see you next time. High podcast listeners. It's Greg Big. If you love cults we'd love to hear from you by taking a quick survey your feedback with help us. Continue Making your favorite shows better than ever please visit is it. PODCAST survey dot me slash cults to answer a few short questions. It may seem small but your input really matters. That's PODCAST survey. Avai dot me slash colts. Thank you for your continued support and for listening.

Gary Hinman Jim Baker Diane Downs Diane John Esposito Manson Baker Hanover Harmon Henman Katie murder Katie Beers Bobby Charles Fritz Harman John Harman Harman spotify officer Diane downs Greg Big Daniel Shaw
Female Criminals Bites: Psychological Manipulation

Female Criminals

28:15 min | 1 year ago

Female Criminals Bites: Psychological Manipulation

"Hi Vanessa and I have some exciting news for you every Friday. You'll hear crime bites where you'll get a brief episode on a true crime theme that's related needed to the stories on this show it's hosted by my friend Greg and it's a fantastic listening experience. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to podcast crime bites. We wanted to give our listeners. Some additional content and to help them dive even deeper into the true crime world every week in addition to your normal female criminals episode. We're exploring the most fascinating true crime themes covered across the podcast network. We've collected short clips from some of our most popular podcast originals. To help us explore ideas like motivation tation method and madness and show how interconnected the true crime world really is. You can find the original episodes of these for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. A list of episodes that we used will be posted in the episode description. Today we're discussing cases uses of psychological manipulation. What tactics criminals use to deceive coerce and exert control over their victims? Why does it work and most importantly what are the dangerous consequences of these types of mental domination? Psychiatrist Harvey Saint Clair you're defined psychological manipulation as a psychosocial maneuver which uses aggressiveness cleverness and deception to influence others so they will give gratification edification to the aggressor this gratification. Whether that being taking hostage cultivating followers or seducing a murder victim is the driving force is behind the criminals manipulative actions. They desire to gain absolute control over their prey psychologist. George Simon identified many tactics manipulators hippie later use to dominate their victims such as intense flattery playing the victim to gain sympathy and undermining a victim's perception of reality through gas sliding so who manipulators target. How do they select the right person to fall prey to the scheme Dr? Harriet breaker identified the most common traits victims of relation possess among them are an eagerness to please low. Self reliance I desire to earn acceptance of blurry we sense of identity and a fear of disapproval in our clips. Today will walk through a variety of criminal manipulators and see how they identify these traits victims. We'll start with clip from podcast original crimes of passion covering one of the most well well known cases of manipulation in true crime history. The Manson family by manipulating in group and out group dynamics in the late nineteen eighteen sixties murderer and cult leader Charles Manson radicalized its followers and cultivated an intense devotion that propelled the family to do his bidding fitting. While the most famous killings committed by the Manson family were the tate labianca murders in August of nineteen sixty nine their first victim was drug dealer Gary Hinman Hindrance murder was the catalyst for a string. A brutal killings carried out by the Manson family in the summer of sixty Jeanine in July of nineteen sixty nine. Charles learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument. Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed that the drugs were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund the families 'cause an exchange Charleston over a few family members is to Henman's house to put pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman was particularly attracted to Manson family. Member Eligible Bailey so he suggested rested she go along to help persuade Henman but L. A.. Joe Asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the family members. Arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring the Henman's apartment instead Charleston family members Bruce Davis this Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers. They held a drug dealer up at gunpoint while the spurn bobby. Beausoleil beat him senseless Eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment. But when Bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied when he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days. Bobby Mary Brenner. And Susan Atkins begins held. Gary Hinman hostage in his home. They continue to make demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him. When Henman told them he'd he'd go to? The police. Bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before. I continue with Bobby Psychology. Please note that I am not a licensed psychiatrist psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism that people people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless examples of people falling under a violent Colt influence and going on to do the unthinkable. Licensed mental health. Counselor Stephen Hasson use the rise of al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder. These extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside site information and instilling an US versus them mentality. Charles Manson uses seem tactics. Family members looked to Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance. Some even thought he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God. Odd Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman then dipped his hand. In the dying man's blood to draw on the wall he wrote political piggy and and then painted a pawprint. Charles had instructed Bobby to leave evidence incriminating the Black Panthers. He hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter then. The group left taking head. Men's cars with them in this episode covering the Manson Family Gary Hinman murder was only the first in a series of killings killings soon after the family slaughtered actress Sharon Tate and eight other innocent people all in a bid to kick start. Manson's prophesied race wars but Manson's use of fear and violence was an opposition to many other criminals of the Hippie era instead they capitalized on the prevailing link philosophy of peace and love in this next clip. From cults we examine. What are the most iconic psychedelic cults of the Nineteen Seventies? The source family unlike Charles Manson the source families charismatic leader. Jim Baker relied on ideas. Like enlightenment and free love to bind his disciples to him like Manson Baker was at the center of the source family but instead of acting as a warrior he became their spiritual father offering offering them love and wisdom in exchange for their loyalty ultimately however this manipulation created an all consuming dynamic of extreme dependency between Baker and his disciples what appeared to be a mutually beneficial relationship. was actually in the service of Baker's Crowing Ego Jim Baker typically responded to complex problems by running away from them but this time he didn't cut and run this could be because as psychoanalyst. Has Daniel Shaw points out in his book. Traumatic narcissism relational systems subjugation as a cult leader Baker had developed a codependent relationship chip with his followers. Shaw writes quote the power that parents have has god like figures to literally give life and sustain. The lives of their children leaves each human being. With the memory of total dependency cult leaders tap into and reactivate this piece of the human psyche followers followers are encouraged to become regressed and infantilized to believe that life depends on pleasing the cult leader and quote and just as as much as the source family members needed Baker. He apparently needed them. According to Shaw the cult leader does not escape dependency instead he e and also in many cases she comes to depend on his followers to worship and adore him to reflect his narcissistic delusion of perfection. In March of one thousand nine hundred seventy three the fifty one year old Baker managed to find a second home for his followers which they called the Father House a three bedroom three bathroom home. In the hills near the source restaurant it was significantly smaller than the mother house. A fact that would soon lead to deadly sadly health risks in some ways life at the Father House went on just as it had at the mother house. Business at the source was still booming and it still required a a few dozen family members to run at each day everyone still gathered for four. AM Meditation and spent much of the day cleaning while seeking enlightenment but in other ways everything changed. Baker began channeling new believe constantly with an ever expanding emphasis on his own power. He began calling himself the Jewish name for God Yoga. He taught about the freemasons and ancient Egyptian magic for his followers the pursuit of enlightenment became like a whirlwind game in which no one knew the rules in our episodes on the source family. We go on to examine how Jim Bakker's total control over. His followers only increased over the next two years. Here's eventually they're number surged over one hundred fifty people but when a run in with the authorities in Los Angeles forced the cult of Fleet Hawaii Baker or father yoed met his end in a fatal hang gliding accident in nineteen seventy five for some. It was a death as glorious as Baker's Chris Life but for others. It was shocking. WAKEUP call. They realized that for years Baker had manipulated them believing he was guiding them to total enlightenment and intern. His followers had blindly obeyed his every whim. But what happens when a criminal delude themselves. US into believing that they're heinous actions are truly in the best interest up there victim coming up. We discussed discussed the horrifying kidnapping case of Katie Beers and explore the power of self manipulation from the violence separatist mentality of the Manson family to the all consuming codependent dynamic. The source family criminals have relied on a variety variety of tactics to exert control over their victims but perhaps the most fascinating method of manipulation is one the criminal uses on themselves. Denial and self delusion in our next clip from our show hostage we cover one of the most twisted cases of self-delusion. The abduction have Katie Beers kidnapped in nineteen ninety-two nine year old. Katie was kept in an underground bunker chain to the wall where she suffered sexual who abuse at the hands of her neighbor. John Zito or big John but unlike Charles Manson or Jim Baker esposito committed his crimes out out of the belief that he was helping his victim. Katie came from an abusive home so Esposito convinced himself that showering her with gifts and affection in would make Katie happy and feel loved the Nesper. ZITO's mind he had rescued Katie from her neglectful family. And it was giving your the care and attention. She deserved served but in reality he had trapped her in a literal hell on earth. Sometimes big John on would come into the bunker and to give Katie food or a toy and then suddenly the blank look would appear on his face and he would rape her. One clue about big. John's John's mental state is how long he remained in denial about sexually abusing Katie. It took more than twenty years for big John To admit he molested Katie and even then and he denied raping her. If Big John Really believed he loved children it would have been hard for him to reconcile that with the obvious evidence. He was seriously harming Katie which could lead to denial a psychological coping mechanism on the other hand when John Zito did finally confess. He blamed aimed his lawyers for telling him not to admit to touching Katie. There is one explanation that falls somewhere between extreme denial and willful cruelty alty Catherine Ramsland. Phd Co author of the book inside the minds of sexual predators says one of the most common types of child. Predators editors is the quote fixated child offender fixated child offenders are stuck at an early stage of psycho sexual development and rationalize away their abuse of children as showing affection they may know their actions are wrong but their fixation on children overrides their moral moral sensibilities so John might have known he was hurting Katie but because he was fixated and felt unable to stop. He tried to convince himself if he was actually helping her big John's grand gestures like the promise of a car and a huge amount of money on her eighteenth. Birthday seem like further rationalizations of this abuse. He was able to convince himself. The kidnapping and sexual abuse were actually a net benefit to his victim. Big John had molested children. Before and in those cases too he cast himself as a helpful male role model in their lives among John. Busy does victims. Atoms Katie's sixteen year old maternal half brother John Beers hostage victim. Katie beers survived for seventeen days in John Esposito's bunker throughout her captivity while he tried to manipulate her into forgiving forgiving him for kidnapping her. She used a variety of tactics to convince US Petito to let her go. She pleaded with him if he really loved her. He'd let interleave grow up. Go to college and have a family. Eventually esposito turned himself into the police though it's unclear if he was motivated by guilt over his actions or fear of being caught either way he led the police to the hidden bunker freeing Katie John. esposito eight Oh demonstrated. How criminals manipulate their victims while they already have them under their control but how do they gain a potential victims trust in the first place? Aw In our next clip from serial killers will examine the tactics of lust murderer Fritz harmon or the Werewolf of Hanover Harmon. killed at least twenty four men from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty four all between the ages of ten and twenty two to lure his victims he sometimes offered them assistance or accommodations. Several of the young men he murdered. Were runaways this made them especially vulnerable to Harmon unstrategic kindness. He brought them home to his apartment supplied them with food and drink then once they're guard was completely down he savagely attacked them after getting away clean for the second time. New Confidence fueled old Harman's bloodlust so when he met seventeen year old wilhelm shelter at Hanover Station in one thousand nine hundred eighty three four weeks after killing Fritz Franken. He couldn't help but approach the boy by now. Harmon had a practice routine for finding suitable victims. He often patrolled Hanover station under the guise of a police officer. Searching for vulnerable boys shoots was a young writer who had just run away from home and this made him an easy target for Harman. Harmon had impersonated a police officer and pretended to lend a sympathetic ear. To the boys troubles. He offered shilpa place to stay into warm meal. She'll say eagerly eagerly accepted the offers and followed Harmon to his apartment. The room was small but spotless. After nearly getting caught for the murder of frank just weeks prior earlier harmon had scrubbed every inch in fact. He had been scrubbing the place with harsh chemicals so often that other tenants in the house had complained to the landlord. Lord a widow named Elizabeth Angle but harmon had long ago explained ankle that he was very particular about cleaning habits and she saw no reason to bother other attendant for keeping US room tidy. Besides harmon was charming angle liked him his charm also allowed him to urge young boys like Schulte into into his bed given his pleasant friendly manner harmon was always able to get close to his victims without making them uncomfortable in these situations harmon especially like to ask US victims about their families. This line of questioning seemed reasonable. Coming from a police officer but Harman's true goal was anything but noble. Will he needed to know if anyone would come looking for the boy. According to Harman he didn't always feel a violent urge to kill the boys. He brought back to his apartment. In some cases harmon kept young men around as errand boys for several days. He gave them small jobs or meals until they stopped coming around other times he raped the boys but did not kill them but unfortunately for Schulte his answers made harmon confident that no one would question his disappearance harmon pounced. He grabbed shelter by the throat and held him down. He raped him and in the midst of the attack. Sunk his teeth into Schultz's Adam's apple this episode of serial killers further details Fritz Harman's six year reign of terror as the butcher of Hanover. But during that time the police couldn't help but notice a sharp spike in the number of missing in boys and teenagers. His crimes were eventually uncovered when the bones from his victims started popping up around town in rivers and fields. When Harman was arrested police discovered stacks of young men's clothing in his apartment after killing them? He sold off their possessions for extra cash in the end his thriftiness. What's his downfall every parted Fritz? Harman's interaction with this victim served a purpose from where he hunted to how we approach them to kill them. He was entirely calculated in his manipulations. But for some criminals their actions aren't so nearly deliberate elaborate rather their manipulations are encouraged by their own. Delusions our final clip from female. Criminals covers convicted murderer. Diane Downs Diane grew up in a strict religious household feeling unloved. She searched for ways to fill that hole her entire life. She finally thought she found the one in Lieu. Louison may carried on serious affair for the better part of nineteen eighty two. But Louis concerned earned by some Diane's behavior. She needed his constant attention at affection. She also lied about everything spinning whatever stories necessary to keep him close to her. Eventually he broke off the affair and went back to US wife. Diane was devastated so in May of Nineteen eighty-three. She devised devised a plan to win. Lou Back if she made herself a victim he would have to come back to her to save her sadly she involved her three a young children in the plot making them victims as well. One Night Diane took the kids out for a drive then. She staged the violent carjacking on the night of the shooting. May Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-three detective. Doug Doug Welsh interview Diana at McKenzie Willamette Hospital. Welsh was the responding officer that night and this was his first homicide case. Diane told Welsh that she and her children had gone to visit her friend and Mark Cola a nearby town in Oregon on their way home. She decided to take a longer route that was more scenic even though it was growing dark as she drove her three sleeping children down old Mohawk road a deserted country road near the Mohawk River. shaggy-haired man flagged her down making her stop the car. Diane got out to ask what he wanted and he demanded she gives him her keys when she refused the man snapped pushed her to the side reached into the car and shot the sleeping children. Diane then pretended to throw her car. Keys in the direction of the riverbank to divert the gunman's attention they struggled for a moment and he shot her in the arm but she managed to get back in the car and race away. The hospital parts of the story didn't make sense to Welsh. He said quote sightseeing when it's pitch blackout. And why are the kids fatally or near fatally wounded and she being right handed is shot in the left arm. I mean think about it. She's the biggest threat to him not three sleeping children and end quote. In addition Diane's account of the events on Mohawk road were inconsistent. She told Welsh the man was bushy-haired then said that he wore a ski. The Mask I. She said that they were attacked by one man but then she said there had been two then reverted back to one. Her evolving narrative is consistent with pathological lying common symptom in those diagnosed with Histrionic personality disorder. Like Diane the nest is going to take over on the psychology here and throughout throughout the episode. Please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy according to Dr Mark. Mark d griffiths patients with HP will often lie as a way to enhance her facilitate their dramatic attention seeking behavior in this case with the dozens of police and doctors in the hospital focused on her. Diana justed her story to appear more dramatic as needed while Welsh took diane instatement. Doctors fought to save three downs children as we further outlined in the female criminals episodes detailing dying down story. She had a long history of pathological lying though her previous lies never had such high high stakes now with children's lives on the line. Diane constructed an elaborate carjacking story to explain their grave injuries however her or attempts to manipulate investigators and her increasing desire for their attention exposed her increasingly convoluted delusions. Ultimately one one of Diane downs. Children died from their injuries. The other two spent months in the hospital recovering. Her three-year-old son was paralyzed from the waist. He's down her oldest daughter. Christie initially lost the ability to speak but when she recovered it was her testimony at Diane's trial that center mother to prison for life while the criminals in our clips today utilize different manipulation tactics. They all shared one common goal to gain in control over their victims. We saw Dr Simon's manipulation tactics play. Diane downs tried to make herself into a victim to manipulate police. Enter ex-boyfriend John esposito tried to use intense flattery to win Katie Beers. Affection even deceiving himself into believing he was saving her we. We also saw that. These manipulators chose their victims very carefully paying attention to those who are most vulnerable as laid out by. Dr Breaker John. esposito stick victim was not only a child but an abused child who desired the approval of adults for many of Fritz Harman's victims were runaways vulnerable to any small small amount of kindness. He showed them Jim. Baker offered identity and acceptance to his followers who looked to Baker for guidance and enlightenment in the end and they all achieved their goal of complete domination. Thanks for tuning into podcast crime bites. We hope you enjoyed this episode on the tactics of psychological manipulation. We'll be back next week. Equip the new episode on Mother's misbehaving. We often think of mothers as the consummate nurturers. Why did they sometimes hurt the ones they love most even their own children? If you'd like to listen to the episodes that we discussed today in full simply search for our podcast original shows crimes of Passion Colts hostage serial killers or female criminals on spotify. Not only to spotify already. have all your favorite music. But now spotify spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker and don't forget to follow us on facebook facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. I'll see you next time Hi podcast listeners Vanessa. If you love female criminals we'd love to hear from you by taking a quick survey your feedback will help us. Continue Making your favorite shows better than ever please visit podcast survey dot me slash female to answer few short questions. It may seem small but your input really matters. That's podcast survey dot m. e. slash slash. Female thank you for your continued support and for listening.

Charles Manson Jim Baker Diane Downs Diane Fritz harmon Fritz Harman murder Katie Beers Katie Henman John Esposito Bobby US Diane downs John spotify officer George Simon Vanessa Doug Doug Welsh Bobby Beausoleil
Con Artists Bites: Psychological Manipulation

Con Artists

30:28 min | 1 year ago

Con Artists Bites: Psychological Manipulation

"Hi It's Alice there and I have some exciting news for you. Catis is now airing episodes twice a week. Thank every Friday. You'll hear con artists. Crime Bites where you'll get a brief episode on a true crime thing that's related to the stories on this show it's hosted by my good friend Greg and it's fantastic listening experience. I hope you enjoy welcome to podcast. Crime Bites we wanted to give our listeners. Some additional content to help them him dive even deeper into the true crime world every week in addition to your normal con artists episode. We're exploring the most fascinating true crime themes covered across crossed the podcast network. We've collected short clips from some of our most popular podcast originals to help us explore ideas motivation method and madness and show how interconnected the true crime world really is. You can find the original episodes of these for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. A list of episodes that we used will be posted in the episode description. Today we're discussing cases of psychological cool manipulation. What tactics criminals use to deceive coerce and exert control over their victims? Why does it work? And most importantly what are the dangerous consequences of these types of mental domination psychiatrist Harvey Saint Clair defined psychological logical manipulation as a psychosocial maneuver which uses aggressiveness cleverness and deception to influence others so they will give gratification to the aggressor Sir this gratification. Whether that being taking hostage cultivating followers or seducing a murder victim is the driving force behind criminals manipulative Tiv- actions they desire to gain absolute control over their prey psychologist. George Simon identified many tactics manipulators used to dominate nate their victims such as intense flattery. Playing the victim to gain sympathy and undermining a victim's perception of reality through gas lighting. So who do manipulators target. How do they select the right person to fall prey to their scheme? Dr Harry Breaker identified. The most common traits victims victims of manipulation possess among them are an eagerness to please low self reliance a desire to earn acceptance of blurry sense of identity and fear of disapproval in our clips. Today will walk through a variety of criminal manipulators and see how they identify these traits victims. We'll start with a clip from podcast original crimes of passion covering one of the most well known cases of manipulation nation in true crime history. The Manson family by manipulating in group and out group dynamics in the late nineteen sixties murderer murderer and cope leader Charles Manson radicalized his followers and cultivated intense devotion that propelled the family to do his bidding while the most famous killings committed by the Manson family where the tate labianca murders in August of nineteen sixty nine. Their first victim was drug dealer. Gary Hinman Henman's murder was the catalyst for a string of brutal killings carried out by the Manson family in the summer of sixty nine in July of nineteen sixty nine. Charles learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument. Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand tabs APPs masculine from Gary Hinman but he then claimed that the drugs were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund the families 'cause in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put a pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman was particularly attracted to Manson family. Member Eligible Bailey. So he suggested she go along to help persuade Henman but L.. Joe Asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the the family members arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring Henman's apartment instead. Charleston family members. Bruce Davis Susan Atkins is an Mary Brunner to act as enforcers. They held the drug dealer up at gunpoint. While the spurn bobby. Beausoleil beat him senseless. Eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment. But when Bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days. Bobby Mary Brenner and Susan. Atkins held Gary Hinman. Men hostage in his home. They continued to make demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him. When Henman told them he'd go to? The police. Bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology. Please note that I am not a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist colleges but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism. That people can be brainwashed into into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless examples of people falling under a violent Colt influence and going on to do the unthinkable thinkable licensed mental health. Counselor Stephen Hasson use the rise above Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can NBA indoctrinated into committing murder. These extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus them and Talapity Charles Manson uses same tactics family members look to Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance. Some even thought he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God. Charles they were proud to do it. So in Charles gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman Mint then dipped his hand in the dying man's blood to draw on the wall. He wrote a little piggy and then painted pawprint rent. Charles had instructed Bobby to leave evidence incriminating the Black Panthers. He hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter. Then the group left taking Henman's cars with them in this episode covering the Manson Family Gary Hinman murder was only the first in a series of killings soon after after the family slaughtered actress Sharon Tate and eight other innocent people all in a bid to kick-start Manson's prophesied race wars but Manson's use use of fear and violence was an opposition to many other criminals of the Hippie era instead they capitalized on the prevailing philosophy of peace. Jason La in this next clip from cults we examined one of the most iconic psychedelic cults of the Nineteen Seventies. The source family unlike Charles Manson the source families charismatic leader. Jim Baker relied on ideas. Like Enlightenment and free love to buy his disciples to him like Manson Baker was at the center of the source family but instead of acting as a warrior he became their spiritual father offering them love and wisdom them in exchange for their loyalty ultimately however this manipulation created an all consuming dynamic extreme dependency between baker and his disciples apples what appeared to be a mutually beneficial relationship. was actually in the service of Baker's Crowing Ego Jim Baker typically responded to complex problems by running away from them but this time he didn't cut and run this could be because as psychoanalyst. Daniel shop points touted his book. Traumatic narcissism relational systems of subjugation as cult leader Baker developed a codependent relationship with his followers. Sean writes quote the power that parents have as God like figures to literally give life and sustain. The lives of their children leaves each human and being with the memory of total dependency comp leaders tap into and reactivate this piece of the human psyche followers are encouraged to to become regressed and infantilized to believe that the life depends unpleasing the cult leader and quote and just as much as the source family members. Numbers needed he apparently needed them. According to Shaw the cult leader does not escape dependency instead he and also in many cases she comes to depend on his followers to worship and adore him to reflect his narcissistic delusion of perfection in March of nineteen eighteen. Seventy three the fifty one year old Baker managed to find a second home for his followers which they called the Father House a three bedroom three bathroom home. In the hills near the source restaurant it was significantly smaller than the mother house. A fact that would soon lead to deadly health risks in some ways life at the Father House went on just as it had at the mother. House business at the source was still booming and it still required a few dozen family members I to run at each day everyone still gathered for four. AM Meditation and spent much of the day cleaning while seeking enlightenment but another ways. Everything changed. Baker began channeling new beliefs. Constantly with an ever-expanding emphasis on his own power. He began calling himself himself by the Jewish name for God Yoho. He taught about the freemasons and ancient Egyptian magic for his followers. The pursuit of enlightenment Mintz became like a whirlwind game in which no one knew the rules in our episodes on the source family. We go on to examine how Jim Bakker's total control over. His followers only increased over the next two years eventually author number surged to over one hundred fifty people but when a run in with the authorities in Los Angeles Force the cult of Fleet Hawaii Baker or father a yoed met his end in a fatal hang gliding accident in nineteen seventy five for some. It was a death as glorious as Baker's life but but for others it was a shocking wakeup call. They realized that for years Baker had manipulated them believing he was guiding them to total enlightenment and in turn his followers had blindly obeyed his every whim but what happens when a criminal delude themselves. into believing that they're heinous actions are truly in the best interest of their victim coming up. We discussed the horrifying kidnapping napping case of Katie Beers and explore the power of self manipulation. Hi It's Alistair. I'm thrilled to tell you about a new podcast series. Sure to become your next obsession. It's cooled secret societies societies. And you can hear it. Every Thursday starting Bryant now secret societies. Let's see discover the schemes rituals and parties. You will never I suppose to know about ready to become a member here. Host Greg and Vanessa to tell you more thank you so much. They've been around for for thousands of years orchestrating. Some of history's most controversial events. And if not for their radical actions you may never have known they existed. Take a journey through hidden passageways and become a member of our casts newest series secret societies. Every Thursday sneak a peek inside the world of assassin groups. Powerful ORCA balls and debaucherous high society clubs from Yale's skull and bones fraternity and their possible involvement in the creation of the C.. I. A. to the Black Hand Military Society and their dealings at extortion kidnapping and murder in the early twentieth century. Learn the secret secret handshake. Memorize the special password and renew your membership to the most diabolical club in town. Follow secret societies free on spotify FI. Or wherever you get your podcasts. From the violence Winston separatist mentality of the Manson family to the all consuming codependent dynamic of the source family criminals have relied on a variety of tactics to exert control over their victims but perhaps the most fascinating methods of manipulation is one. The criminal uses on themselves. Denial and self delusion solution in our next clip from our show hostage we cover one of the most twisted cases of self delusion the abduction of Katie Beers kidnapped snapped in one thousand nine hundred ninety two nine year old Katie was kept in an underground bunker chained to the wall where she suffered sexual abuse at the hands of her neighbor. John Esposito or big John but unlike Charles Manson or Jim Baker Esposito committed his crimes out of the belief that he was helping being his victim. Katie came from an abusive home so Esposito convinced himself that showering her with gifts and affection would make Katie. Happy Infield loved Vanessa Zito's mind. He had rescued Katie from her neglectful family. And it was giving you the care and attention. She deserved but in reality already. He had trapped her in a literal hell on earth. Sometimes big John would come into the bunker to give Katie eighty food or a toy and then suddenly the blank look would appear on his face and he would rape her one clue about big. John's mental state is how long he remained in denial about sexually abusing Katie. It took more than twenty years for big John To admit he molested Katie and even then he denied raping her. If Big John Really believed he loved children it would have been hard for him to reconcile that with the obvious evidence. He was seriously harming Katie which could lead to denial psychological coping mechanism on the other hand. Win John. ESPOSITO did finally confess. He blamed his lawyers for telling him. I am not to admit to touching Katie. There is one explanation that falls somewhere between extreme denial and willful cruelty Catherine Ramsland Glenn. Phd Co author of the book inside the minds of sexual predators. Says one of the most common types of child. Predators is the quote fixated fixated child offender fixated. Child offenders are stuck at an early stage of psycho sexual development and rationalize away. They're abusive abusive children as showing affection. They may know their actions are wrong but their fixation on children overrides their moral sensibilities. So John John might have known he was hurting Katie. But because he was fixated and felt unable to stop he tried to convince himself he was actually helping her big John's grand gestures like the promise of a car and a huge amount of money on her eighteenth birthday seem like further rationalizations of this abuse. News he was able to convince himself that kidnapping and sexual abuse were actually a net benefit to his victim. The John had molested children children. Before and in those cases too he cast himself as a helpful male role model in their lives among John. ESPOSITO's victims Katie's sixteen-year-old enrolled maternal half brother John Beers hostage victim. Katie eighty beers survived for seventeen days in John s busy does bunker throughout her captivity while he tried to manipulate her into forgiving him for kidnapping her she used a variety of tactics to convince Esposito to let her go. She pleaded with him if he really loved her. He'd let her leave grow up. Go Go to college and have a family eventually. ESPOSITO turned himself into police though it's unclear if he was motivated by guilt over his actions or fear of being caught either way he led the police to the hidden bunker. Freeing Katie John esposito demonstrated how criminals manipulate their victims while they already have them under their control but how do they gain a potential victims. Trust in the first place in our next clip from serial killers will examine the tactics of lust murderer Fritz harmon or the Werewolf of Hanover Harmon. killed at least twenty four men from one thousand nine hundred eighteen to nineteen twenty four all between the ages of ten and twenty two to lure his victims in he sometimes offered them assistance or accommodations. Several of the young men he murdered. Were runaways this made them especially vulnerable to harmon strategic kindness so he brought them home to his apartment supplied them with food and drink then once they're guard was completely down he savagely attacked them after getting away clean for the second time new confidence. Fueled Harman's bloodlust so when he met seventeen year old wilhelm. She'll TSA at Hanover station. In nineteen twenty three four weeks after killing Fritz Franken. He couldn't help but approached the boy by now. Harmon had practice routine for finding suitable victims. He often patrolled Hanover station under the guise of a police officer searching for vulnerable honorable boys she also was a young writer who had just run away from home and this made him an easy target for Harman. Harman had impersonated a police officer and pretended to lend a sympathetic ear. To the boys troubles. He offered Schulte place to stay into warm meal. She'll say eagerly accepted the offers and and followed Harmon to his apartment. The room was small but spotless. After nearly getting caught for the murder of frank just weeks prior harmon had scrubbed every inch in fact he had been scrubbing the place with harsh chemicals so often that other tenants in the house had complained to the landlord. A widow named Elizabeth Elizabeth Angle but Harmon had long ago explained angle that he was very particular about his cleaning habits and she saw no reason to bother attendant for keeping US room tidy. Heidi besides Harmon was charming angle. Liked him his charm also allowed him to urge young boys like Schulte into his bed given his is pleasant friendly manner harmon was always able to get close to his victims without making them uncomfortable in these situations harmon especially like to ask victims about their families. This line of questioning seemed reasonable. Coming from police officer but Harman's true goal was anything but noble. He needed to know if anyone would come looking for the boy. According to Harman he didn't always feel a violent urge to kill the boys. He brought back to his apartment in some cases harmon and kept young men around as errand boys for several days. He gave them small jobs or meals until they stopped coming around other times he raped the boys always but did not kill them but unfortunately for Schulte his answers made harmon confident that no one would question his disappearance Harmon and pounced. He grabbed shelter by the throat and held him down. He raped him and in the midst of the attack sunk his teeth into shelters Adam's apple this episode of serial killers further details Fritz harmon in six year reign of terror as the butcher of Hanover. But during that time the police couldn't help but notice the sharp spike in the number of missing boys and teenagers. His crimes were eventually uncovered when the bones from his victim started popping up around town in rivers and fields when harmon was arrested and police discovered stacks of young men's clothing in his apartment after killing them. He sold off their possessions. Extra cash at the end his thriftiness fifty nece was his downfall. Every part of Fritz Harman's interaction with victims served a purpose from where he hunted to how we approach them to to how he killed them. He was entirely calculated in his manipulations. But for some criminals their actions aren't so nearly deliberate rather their manipulations populations are encouraged by their own. Delusions our final clip from female. Criminals covers convicted murderer. Diane Downs Diane grew up in a strict religious household feeling unloved. She searched for ways to fill that hole her entire life. She finally thought she found found the one. In Lieu Louison make carried on a series of fair for the better part of nineteen eighty two. But Louis concerned by some Diane's behavior. She needed his constant attention at affection. She also lied about everything spinning whatever stories necessary to keep him close to her eventually. Eventually he broke off the affair and went back to his wife. Diane was devastated so in May of nineteen eighty three. She devised a plan to win. Lou back back. If she made herself victim he would have to come back to her to save her sadly she involved her three young children in the plot making them victims as well one night. Diane took the kids out for a drive then. She staged a violent carjacking working on the night of the shooting. May Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-three detective. Doug Welsh interview Diana at McKenzie Willamette. Hospital Welsh was the responding officer that night and this was his first homicide case. Diane told Welsh that she and her children in had gone to visit her friend and Mar Cola a nearby town in Oregon on their way home. She decided to take a longer route. That was more scenic even though oh it was growing dark as she drove her three sleeping children down. Old Mohawk road a deserted country road near the Mohawk River. A shaggy-haired man on flagged her down making her stop the car. Diane got out to ask what he wanted and he demanded she gives him her keys when she refused the manse and snapped pushed her to the side reached into the car and shot the sleeping children. Diane then pretended to throw her car. Keys in the direction of the riverbank. Bank to divert the gunman's attention. They struggled for a moment and he shot her in the arm but she managed to get back in the car and race away to the hospital. Parts of the story didn't make sense to Welsh. He said quote sightseeing when it's pitch black out. And why are the kids fatally or near fatally wounded and she being being right. Handed is shot in the left arm. I mean think about it. She's the biggest threat to him. Not Three sleeping children and quote. In addition Diane's account of the events on Mohawk road were inconsistent. She told Welsh the man was bushy-haired then said that he wore a ski mask. I she said that they were attacked by one man but then she said there had been two then reverted back to one. Her evolving narrative is consistent with pathological lying the common symptom in those diagnosed with Histrionic personality. Disorder like Diane. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note L.. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist but she has done a lot of research. The show thank Sammy. According to Dr Mark d griffiths patients wins with HP D. will often lie as a way to enhance or facilitate their dramatic and attention seeking behavior in this case with the dozens of police and doctors in in the hospital focused on her. Diana justed her story to appear more dramatic as needed while Welsh took Diane statement. Doctors fought plot to save the three downs children as we further outlined in the female male criminals episodes detailing dying down story. She had a long history of pathological lying though her previous lies never had such high stakes now with her children's lives on the line. Diane constructed elaborate carjacking story to explain their grave injuries however her attempts to manipulate investigators tres and her increasing desire for their attention exposed her increasingly convoluted delusions. Ultimately one of Diane downs. Children died from their injuries. The other two spent months in the hospital recovering. Her three-year-old son was paralyzed from the waist. Down her oldest daughter Christie initially lost the ability to speak but when she recovered it was her testimony at Diane's trial that center mother to to prison for life while the criminals are clips today utilize different manipulation tactics. They all shared one common goal to gain control over their victims yes. We saw Dr Simon's manipulation tactics at play. Diane downs tried to make herself into a victim to manipulate police. Enter ex-boyfriend John Esposito zito tried to use intense flattery to win Katie Beers. Affection even deceiving himself into believing he was saving her. We also saw that these manipulators. I chose their victims very carefully paying attention to those who are most vulnerable as laid out by Dr Breaker John. ESPOSITO's dictum was not only child but an abused child who desired the approval of adults. For many Harman's victims were runaways vulnerable to any small amount of kindness. He showed them Jim Baker identity and acceptance to his followers who looked to Baker for guidance and enlightenment in the end they all achieved their goal. All of complete domination. Thanks for tuning tuning into podcast crime bites. We hope you enjoyed this episode on the tactics of psychological manipulation. We'll be back next week with a new episode. On mother's there's misbehaving. We often think mothers as the consummate nurturers. Why do they sometimes hurt the ones they love most even their own children? If you'd like to listen to the episodes that we discussed today in full simply search for our podcast original shows crimes of Passion Cults Hostage Serial Killers or female criminals on spotify. Not only spotify. Already have all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for. Are you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals for free from your phone desktop or a smart speaker. Don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast or cast and twitter at podcast network. I'll see you next time. Hi podcast listeners. It's Alistair if you love Kon Artis. We'd love to hear from you. By taking a quick survey your feedback feedback will help us. Continue Making your favorite shows better than ever please visit. PODCAST survey dot me slash con to answer a few short questions wins. It may seem small but your input really matters. That's podcast survey dot me slash con. Thank you for your continued support and listening. Don't forget to check out parkas newest series secret societies. Every Thursday secret societies provides a peek inside the world of assassin. Sinn groups powerful cabals and debaucherous high-society clubs. So are you ready to become a member search for a secret societies in the spotify APP and listen free today.

Katie Beers Gary Hinman Diane Downs Diane Manson Baker Gary Hinman Henman Jim Baker John Esposito murder Fritz harmon spotify Fritz Harman John John Bobby Charles Vanessa Zito kidnapping officer Diane downs Greg Bobby Beausoleil
Summer of 69: The Passion Behind The Family Pt. 2

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

53:12 min | 1 year ago

Summer of 69: The Passion Behind The Family Pt. 2

"Due to the graphic nature of these crimes listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder sexual assault drug use and violence that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen when Suzanne struthers fifteen year old brother call to tell her. Nobody was answering the door at their mother and stepfather's house. She didn't believe him at first. It was after nine P._M.. And they weren't the type to go out carousing late at night but he insisted she come over. Suzanne told herself. It was probably nothing one of his jokes that she she didn't understand but she couldn't shake her rattled nerves. She took her boyfriend Joe to go investigate. When Susan arrived at her parents house she retrieved the spare key and unlocked the back door? Joe suggested that she she weighed in the kitchen while he checked the living room as she waited. Suzanne looked around and spotted a pile of Watermelon Ryan's in the sink. The site of the mess in her mother's normally meet kitchen gave Suzanne chill a a moment later Joe hurried back into the kitchen seeing his face Suzanne's worry turn to panic. He wouldn't tell her what he saw in the living room only that they had to leave right now as Joe Joe guided her to the back door. Suzanne glanced at the refrigerator startled scrawled on the door and red paint was a strange message helter skelter. Hi I'm leany hops and this is crimes of passion apar- cast original illegal definition of crimes of passion is a violent crime that occurs in the throes of extreme emotion leaving no time to reflect on the consequences but in this show we explore passionate crimes how does a marriage progress from husband and wife to killer her and victim or killer and co-conspirator if there's then mind between love and hate what manipulates our relationships and a deadly results last week we explored Charles Manson's troubled troubled childhood in and out of juvenile facilities as an adult he spent another ten years in prison but despite his criminal tendencies Charles had an amazing talent for manipulating people when he was released from prison in nineteen sixty seven Charles used this power of manipulation to attract a following of lost vulnerable people who were desperate for love and guidance he called his group of two dozen disciples the family family under Charles Guidance they spent their day squatting at spun ranch and Seamy Valley taking drugs participating in group sex and listening to Charles Lecture about a coming race war which he called called helter skelter but by July of nineteen sixty nine Charles thoughts and actions were turning increasingly violent after dispute with a drug dealer named lots of Papa Charles went to lots of Papas apartment went shot him and left for dead but this shooting was only the start of the brutality Charles perpetuated that summer in this episode we'll talk about how Charles directed his followers to kill for him how the group began to splinter in the aftermath of the violence and how the family was finally brought to justice. This episode is part of our casts summer of Sixty Nine Event July twenty second through August night. All your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals will be digging into the fallout of emo KS assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Cold Old and rumors of a Kennedy family cover up you can find these specials and more all in our new parkas presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. We are grateful for you. Oh our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us. If you enjoy today's episode the best way down assist to leave a five star review where ever you're listening. It really does help last week we explored Charles. Manson's troubled childhood voted in and out of juvenile facilities as an adult. He spent another ten years in prison but despite his criminal tendencies Charles had an amazing talent from Manipur meeting people when he was released from prison in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven Charles used his power of manipulation to attract the following of lost vulnerable people who were desperate for love and guidance he called his group of two dozen disciples the family under Charles's guidance they spent their day squatting at spawn ranch in Seamy Valley taking drugs participating in group sex and listening to Charles Lecture about a coming race war which he called helter skelter but by July of nineteen sixty nine Charles thoughts and actions were turning increasingly violent after dispute with the drug dealer named lots of Papa Charles went to lots of Papas apartment shot him and left him for dead but this shooting was only the start of the brutality Charles perpetuated that summer in this episode we'll talk about how Charles directed his followers to kill for him how the group began to splinter in in the aftermath of the violence and how the family was finally brought to justice after Charles gunned down lots of Papa in July nineteen sixty nine he bragged to his followers about the shooting shooting but he wrongly believed lots of Papa was affiliated with the Black Panthers and worried that the panthers might come after the family and Revenge Charles became fixated on his plan to flee to death valley and Wade out helter author skelter in isolated safety there Charles said they would hide in a pit until the world returned to order but before they could make their trip to the desert the family needed to raise some funds Charles Thaad one potential source of income might be thirty four year old music teacher and drug dealer Gary Henman Henman was friendly with the family sometimes letting them crash at his house but Charles was an interested in the man's friendship uh with Henman as with all of Charles's relationships Charles only cared about how he could use the other person to benefit himself. This was also Charles felt about twenty one year old musician Bobby beausoleil bobby wasn't an official member of the family but he hung out at the ranch frequently listened to Charles's lectures about helter skelter and was romantically involved with some of the family women in July of nineteen sixty nine nine Charles learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument Bobby Beausoleil had purchased a thousand taps mescaline from Gary Henman but he then claimed that the drugs were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back Charles figure that as long as bobby was asking for refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund. The families 'cause in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman Bliss particularly attracted to Manson family member L. Joe Bayly so he suggested she go along to help her swayed Henman but L. A. Joe asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent. She later said that she witnessed the family. Members arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring Henman's apartment instead Charleston family members Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers they he held the drug dealer up at gunpoint while the spurn Bobby Beausoleil beat him senseless eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment but when bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied Aspide he was sure and men must have money stashed away for the next two days Bobby Mary Brenner and Susan Atkins held Gary Henman hostage in his home. They continue to make demands for money while bobby relentlessly beat him when Henman told them he go to the police bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? You Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before I continue with Bobby Psychology please note that I am not a license psychiatrist or psychologists but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism that people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless examples of people falling under a violent cult influence and going on to do the unthinkable licensed mental health counselor. Stephen Hasson used the rise about al Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder these extremist extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus then mentality Charles Manson uses same tactics family members looked at Charles as they're only source of wisdom and guidance some even thought he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs news of the outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles gave the word bobby readily obeyed he stabbed Henman than dipped his hand and the dying man's blood to draw on the wall he wrote a little piggy and then painted pawprint Charles had instructed bobby to leave evidence incriminating the Black Panthers he hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter then the group left taking Henman's cars with them back. It gets on ranch. Susan Atkins boasted to the other women about the murder but not all the family members were impressed l.. A. Joe Bayly felt sick to her stomach. She couldn't believe that the people she saw every day. People she loved could casually admit to murder she had heard about Charlie shooting at Black Panther a few weeks before but that hadn't hit her the same. I'm way she figured it was just Charlie. Protecting the family hearing about Henman's death was different. She knew Henman she had been invited into his home. Eligible wondered what might have happened if she hadn't refused to go back. Perhaps she could have done something to help. Henman now it was too late and she felt paralyzed with guilt. Eligible reflected on her time with a Family Charlie had been the center of her life for nearly two years she had once thought she'd be happy to follow Charlie's lead for the rest of her life but now she admitted that she felt differently. Perhaps it had started. When Bill Vance joined the group bill was special and at some point after he arrived L. A. Joe had begun to think of him as her boyfriend but Charlie discourage the family from forming attachments? He told them that everyone belonged to everyone else. Falling in love with bill was L.. Joe's I act of disobedience against Charlie now in the wake of Henman's death. Ellen show began to steal herself up for another her larger rebellion as soon as she could she would find Bill Vance then they would flee spawned ranch together on July twenty eighth nineteen sixty nine eligible Bailey and Bill Vance escaped the family for good three days later the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department discovered Gary Henman's body afraid the police would connect them to the death. Bobby beausoleil decided to flee to San Francisco driving the car he had stolen from Henman but the car broke down midway there when highway patrol stopped to help they realized that an all points bulletin had been issued for the stolen car. The officers discovered the knife bobby had used to stab henman stashed in the cars well later. They matched his fingerprints to a thumbprint left in Gary Henman's house the officers arrested Bobby Hobby and he was charged with murder. When Charles heard about the arrest he was worried bobby? Mike confessed to everything implicating the family in the murder but he was also upset. The Henman's murder had it made more we have an impact he had hoped to spark a media frenzy though it initiate the coming race war so as a family discussed how to deal with Bobby's arrest trials began to work out a new plan he wanted to stage in even and more brutal murder one so shocking it would make headlines around the country Charles was sure that such an event would be enough to trigger helter skelter and as a bonus it might help Bobby Beausoleil. The family thought if more murders were committed while bobby was in custody it would prove that the police had arrested the wrong man and he would be let go on the night of August eighth nineteen sixty nine Charles took family member Tex Watson aside and told him what needed to be done a year earlier when Charles was cozying up to every music industry contact that would tolerate him. He had pursued a relationship with music producer Terry Melchor at the time Melchior lived in a secluded house on ceelo drive. Even though Melcher had moved out of the house some months before Charles reason that whoever lived there now must also be rich and famous anyone anyone who lived in a place like that must be the kind of high profile person whose death would make national news according to Charles's plan techs and a few of the family women would go to Ceelo drive break into the house else and murder them in his research. Stephen Hasson stated that in the most destructive colts psychological influence seeks to disrupt an individual's identity personal behavior thoughts emotions and reconstructed in the image of the leader Tex Watson win later say that he accepted Charles's plan without an argument because Manson slaw was greater than his own conscience Charles recruited more followers. I help tax twenty one year old Susan Atkins Twenty one year old Pat Krenwinkel and twenty year old Linda Kosabe Ian he instructed them to obey any command techs gave but didn't tell them the goal of the mission as they got into the car. Charles called out do something which he it was a code to replicate Gary Henman's murder and the political piggy message bobby had scrawled on the wall just after midnight on August August ninth nine thousand nine hundred sixty nine the family arrived at the House on Ceelo drive techs instructed the women to climb over the fence once they were on the grounds techs told them the plan kill anyone they found inside coming up. We'll talk about the infamous murder spree of August ninth and Tenth Nineteen sixty-nine either if you enjoy this episode on the Manson Family Search crimes of passion on spotify and give us a follow to find more episodes now back to the story just after midnight on August Ninth Nineteen sixty-nine Tex Watson Season Atkins Pat Krenwinkel and Linda Kosabe Ian drove through Benedict Canyon until they reach the house at one Oh five Oh ceelo drive once they got their techs escape the women the order he had received from Charles Manson they were to break in and kill everyone inside after Melcher moved out thirty five year old director Roman Polanski and his wife Twenty six year old actress Sharon Tate rented the House that night Polanski was not home he was filming a movie in Europe but a pregnant tate just two weeks away from her due date had stayed behind in Los Angeles another couple also resided in the house a longtime friend of Polanski's thirty two year old Vojtech Frankowski and his girlfriend twenty five year old Abigail soldier the pair had moved into keep sharing company before the birth on that August night Sharon had another visitor her close friend and hairstylists thirty five year old J. C. bring in addition to the main house. The property also had a smaller guest cottage the property property caretaker nineteen year old William Garretson lived in the cottage that night. He had a friend over eighteen year old student. Steve Parent parent was just leaving the property around Twelve Fifteen A._M.. On August ninth breath when the family members heard Steve Parents car coming toward them down the driveway they hid in some bushes but as a car stopped at the front gate techs emerged holding his gun the teenager implored please days. Please don't hurt me. I'm your friend. I won't tell techs ignored him. He sliced parents arm with a knife and then shot him for times. Steve Parents slumped over in the Front front-seat dead the group pause to see if the gunfire had alerted the residents of the home but the surrounding canyons had muffled the sound Texan the women continued onto the main house attacks found in open window leading into the Front Hall after slicing open the screen he told Linda to stay and keep lookout while the rest when inside in the Living Room Techs Susan and pack found Vojtech Break Hausky asleep sleep on the couch for cousy woke up and ask them what they wanted techs replied. I'm the devil and I'm here to do the devils business then he kicked for Hausky in the head rendering during him barely conscious textile the women to check the rest of the house they found Abigail folder Sharon tate and J. C.. Bring in the bedrooms brandishing their knives. They ordered everyone to the living room. Rome once their tax tied up the men Jay and the still dazed for Hausky Sharon tate started to cry J. shouted. Can't you see she's pregnant. As as soon as J spoke techs shot him in the abdomen text demanded all the money the hostages had full Joe revealed that she had about seventy dollars in her purse about five hundred dollars today tate explained that she didn't have any money in the house but she could get some knowing the Charles would be upset if they returned to spawn ranch without much cash techs became angry J._c.. Bring grown in writing on the floor from his gunshot wound techs world on him and stabbed him until he died when tate and folger's screamed in Horror Vojtech for Hausky awoke from his Stupor and struggled to untie his own. I'm hands Susan Atkins leapt at him and stabbed his legs techs. Turn the gun on him and began to shoot but he somehow managed to break free and limped outside techs quickly caught up with him. Frankowski died with two bullet wounds and fifty-one stab wounds. Linda kosabe Ian was still outside keeping lookout when they had sent out that evening she thought they were going on another creepy crawling mission not a murder spree as soon as she saw tax shoot Steve Parent she had entered a state of shock. Now she meet an attempt to end the gory scene she shouted. Please make it sop people are coming but nobody was coming and techs did not stop Linda gave up she decided to hunt the fence. Get away from the property and wait by their car. As for Caskey died on the Front John Abigail soldier tried to break away she also tried to escape across the yard but Pat Krenwinkel caught up with her and stabbed her when techs trotted over he pointed path towards the guest cottage and told told her to look inside and kill anyone there at seemed shaken after stabbing Bolger and she only pretended to check the guest cottage telling tax at the house was empty. If the caretaker William Garretson was awake back he didn't give any sign to reveal himself techs. Meanwhile continued stabbing Abigail folder later. He claimed she told him as she died. I give up. You've got me finally the murderers turn to pregnant Sharon. Tate Tate begged them despair her. She pleaded with them to kidnap her and keep her alive just long enough to deliver her baby. The family ignored her. Susan Atkins held the sobbing woman while Tex stabbed her sixteen times when she was dead. Susan dipped Ital- in her blood and wrote the worth Hig on the front door with their mission accomplished. The group left the property tax. Susan and Pat Join Linda a car and drove away when they got back to the ranch. Charles was eager to hear about the crime came in fact he wanted to see it for himself to make sure it was gruesome enough to attract media attention he drew back to the House himself at night and made small adjustments wanting to make the crime scene as bizarre Dr and Chongqing as possible. He placed the towel over J._C.. BRINGS HEAD HE DRAPED IN AMERICAN FLAG OVER SHARON TATE's body. He moved a pair of glasses till the living room when he was finished. He drove back to spawn ranch and went to bed the next morning around eight A._M.. A housekeeper discovered the bodies inside the House on Ceelo drive. Her screams alerted neighbors who called the police police question the caretaker William Garretson. He claimed that he had been asleep on night. The police didn't believe him and arrested Garretson. Police also found a number of recreational drugs the House M._d.. Ama A- sheesh and marijuana perhaps the murders were the result of a drug deal gone bad back at Spahn ranch. Susan Techs and Pat Watch the news and basked in the attention engine. Their crimes had received a Charles wasn't satisfied. None of their reports blamed the debts on the Black Panthers nor did they link the debts to Gary Henman's murder the tate murderers wouldn't clear Bobby Bhosle his name nor would they begin helter skelter so Charles decided that more people had to die this time it wouldn't simply issue orders from the ranch. He intended to oversee the killings. Links himself Charles gathered the same group he'd sent to Ceelo Drive Techs Susan Pat and Linda no one had told Charles that Linda ran away during the previous nights murders and she was too afraid to object when Charles selected her for a second journey Charles also brought nineteen year old Leslie Van Houten an eighteen year old clem broke in the group dressed in dark clothes and gathered their knives then they set out into the night Charles directed them to a neighborhood in Los feeless and hold them to stop next door to a house the family had been to before for parties but the friend had moved out the previous devious fall and no one was sure why Charles pick this target he in Tex- got out of the car and entered through an unlock back door inside forty four year old Lino Labianca and his wife thirty eight year old rosemary were asleep Lino and rosemary were not rich celebrities. He ran a chain of grocery stores and she owned address shop. They were a well liked upper-middle-class couple. They had no connections to Manson or the family. When Charles text went into the house they found Lino Asleep on the couch? When he awoke Charles Order text tie the man's hands behind his back with some leather ropes he brought from the ranch Charles went went into the bedroom brought out rosemary and sat her next to her husband then he retrieved pat and Leslie from the car he told techs make sure everybody does something before leaving Charles Stole Rosemary's Wallet Techs put a pillow case over Lino lobbying as head and wrapped a lamp cord around the man's neck in mouth he instructed pat and Leslie to take Rosemary into the bedroom and do the same same thing to her when they were out of sight tech Stab Lino with a bayonet from the bedroom rosemary screamed? What are you doing to my husband? She tried to run to Lino but the lamp courts wrapped around her neck or still plugged into the wall as Rosemary strained against the cords Pat stabbed her with the kitchen knife. Then techs came in to complete the job with his bayonet. When Rosemary was dead tax return to the Living Room Stab Lino a few more times and carve the word war into the man stomach had stuck an ivory handled carving fork in his body? They went back to the a bedroom. were tax instructed Leslie to Stab Rosemary's body following Charlie's command that everyone participate when they were finished they used blood to write messages on the wall in the living room. They wrote rise and death to pigs in the kitchen on the refrigerator door. Pat wrote helter skelter misspelled H. E. A. L. L. T. E. R. AS TECHS PAT and Leslie Follow Charles Orders Charles led the rest of the Women Linda Clem and Susan to a Denny's restaurant instill Elmar he told Linda Lee Rosemary's wallet and the restaurant bathroom he expected a black woman to find the wallet steal the credit cards inside and then be blamed for the law Bianca's murders then Charles asked them who else they might kill Charles were called Linda telling him about a Lebanese actor named Salad and natter whom she met while panhandling Linda had gone back to the actors home in Santa Monica to have sex Charles asked if Linda remembered the building where the actor lived Linda said yes but when Charles handed her a knife and told her she was going to find matter and slit his throat. Linda balked the bloody events of the previous night I took sick and her and she did not want to be a part of more violence. She said I'm not you. Charlie Charles ignored her he needed as many notorious deaths as possible to ignite helter skelter he dropped the family members off in front of the actors apartment and told Linda to lead Susan and Clem to the actors door where they would kill him. Then Charles drove away back to spawn ranch. Linda pretended to obey Charles but she purposefully took Susan and Clem to the wrong unit when a stranger answered the door. Linda backed away and told the family that she didn't remember were natter lived. The group hitchhiked back to spawn and nobody discussed what had happened. The following evening Rosemary Labianca fifteen year old son frank came home from staying at a friend's house when his mother and stepfather didn't answer the door frank called his twenty one year old sister Suzanne and Suzanne's boyfriend Joe Dorgan the three entered the house where they found Rosemary and Lino Law Bianca dead the immediately called call the police when journalist Got Ahold of the story they noticed similarities between the crime scene at Ceelo drive and the lobby on residence police however were skeptical Lino Law Bianca had some gambling debts and investigators thought he might build some money to members of the mafia although it seemed as if the family had gotten away with murder Charles worried about Bobby Beausoleil who was still being held for Gerry Henman's death breath and who might confess and point the police to Charles at any moment the week after the murders Charleston Linda Kosabe into visit Bobby in jail and give him a message to stay quiet. Linda happily took occur assignment Linda COSC- bian skin crawl the she thought about her naievety she had left an unhappy marriage to join the family because she thought she might find a higher love with Charlie and his women. She felt disgusted by what she knew. Now the family had nothing to do with love. They were just mindless. Robots controlled by a Madman Linda would give anything to when do the Knights of August ninth and tenth but her only option was to move forward. She had to get out only one thing was stopping Linda from deserting the family and never looking back back her young daughter. Tanya lived at spawn ranch to Linda desperately trying to think of a way to take Tanya without raising Charlie suspicions but it was hopeless she knew Charlie would never let them leave together if she tried Charlie might kill her and then Tanya would be stuck with the family forever. Leaving Tanya was the hardest thing Linda had ever done but she knew that it was the only only way to get help she had to do it to save them both with her decision made when the borrowed a car and meet a show of leaving visit Bobby at the Los Angeles County jail but instead of driving having south she went east her heart broke as the mile stretched between her and Tanya but she willed herself to keep going. She had to reach her husband Bob in New Mexico then she would tell l. him everything. After Linda reunited with her husband she told him about the murderers but she was too afraid to go to the police worried the family might hurt her daughter. She was anxious to that. The family might trying to come after her but by then Charles was too busy to pursue an insubordinate family member he was hard at work preparing his followers further move to the desert coming up. We'll talk about the fracturing of the family in Death Valley and how the group's breakdown help investigators and prosecutors make their case against Charles Manson now the conclusion of the story in late August of nineteen sixty nine Charles Manson decided it was time for helter skelter to begin. He ordered some of his most loyal followers to carry we out a series of brutal murders on August ninth and tenth killing seven people not long after the murders spun ranch was rated by police. It had nothing to do with the tate or lobby on the murders. Police suspected the group was operating an auto theft during on the property they had been stealing Dune buggies and motorcycles in preparation for their trek to the desert and had actually previously been rated for similar suspicions. Police took some of the family members into custody but the chargers were dropped within days for lack of evidence. Although they released the adult family members they placed the family children including Linda CA sapiens daughter Tanya into foster care when Lyndon discovered this she returned l._a.. County to regain custody over the girl but she did not reveal anything about the murders back at the ranch. Charles remained anxious about the police's raid he thought it might be a signal that someone was spilling family secrets. He blamed Donald Shorty Shea an employee of the ranch owner short he didn't care for the families presence at the ranch and he often advised his boss to kick them out given his animosity towards Charles Short. He made a convenience Abe goat some night in late August about two weeks. After the tape murders Charles Bruce Davis and Clem Grogan again took shorty shea out into the desert and killed him with this done Charles decided it was time to retreat to Death Valley National Park hundreds of miles away from civilization. Listen to wait out the coming ray source Charles is most ardent followers were thrilled that they were finally going to escape into the pit Charles had prophesied they believed that once they were inside the pit they would go through a metamorphosis -morphosis and take whatever form the desired but they had to locate the pit before this could happen when they reached the desert. Charles ordered them to go on daily excursions in search of the whole that would lead them to the pit and each night when they returned from day of searching exhausted they would gather around the fire take hits of acid and listen to Charles preaching about helter skelter and their new life Sharon K. Farber harbor a counselor with a p._H._d.. In social work said that colts prey upon the tendency of many to rely on magical thinking which reinforces the tendency to endow the leader with omnipotent and magical powers the member our can readily come to believe the leader can read his mind or here conversations at a distance. Many of Charles is followers were desperate for Charles's predictions to come true. They had joined Charles in the first place to escape their empty lives and now they wanted to escape from reality itself but for the family members who were not quite sold on Charles's apocalyptic predictions life and death valley was a difficult adjustment there was no electricity or telephones they were constantly running low on food and supplies and the daily expeditions define the pit or brutal in the desert heat as morale dropped Tex X.. Watson grew frustrated every day. The Group failed to find the pit techs grew more doubtful of Charles Claims Confused and oppressed. He began to fervently wish that he could erase his life with the family family. After a few weeks he left the desert to return to his parents in Texas. Tech's wasn't the only one to disappear family members Barbara Hoyt and seamy Valley Sherry were frightened by the violence they heard about about one night. They slipped away and want sixteen hours through the desert until they were able to stop a car and hitchhiked back to Los Angeles. Besides the blow of losing members Charles also had to contend. Contend with the attention of Park Rangers who correctly suspected the group had set fire to equipment belonging to the Parks Department these suspicions lead Park Rangers and the California Highway Patrol to pay the family of visit they found stolen cars including makeshift armored vehicles with scampered to hold weapons. The officers suspicions of the Strange Group deepened on October tenth the Park Service Highway Patrol and Inyo County Sheriff's department it meant rated the property authorities made over a dozen arrests but they did not locate Charles by chance he had gone back to Los Angeles a day before to try to raise some extra money and replenish their food stash Charles returned to death valley as soon as he heard about the raid. Perhaps he panicked at the thought of his followers in custody and what they might be telling the gleese he wanted to be physically close to them while he figured out how to regain control role immediately after Charles's return. The authorities raided the desert ranch again this time as California Highway Patrolman James Pursell meet a sweep inside the house he found a lit- candle flickering on the table and he knew that someone must be home herself searched the bathroom right before his is the door of a small cabinet by the sinks Longo been and Charles Manson emerged herself said if you make one false move I'll blow your head off to which Charles replied I Charles was arrested and brought to a jail in Inyo county along with the rest of the family. Once serious interogations began everything started to unravel twenty year old kitty loot singer who was pregnant with Bobby Beausoleil as baby and frustrated that she was being kept in the dark told the police police everything she heard about Gary Henman's murder she also told them she had heard Susan Atkins bragging about stabbing a man in the legs she assumed Susan was talking about Henman but he hadn't been stabbed in legs the attack she described at another crime better the murder of Vojtech Frankowski at Sharon Tate's house investigators questioned Susan who corroborated the story admitting that she had been present for Henman's murder. Susan was subsequently booked for murder and moved to a women's prison in Los Angeles County. Susan spent the next few weeks bragging to other inmates that she had been part of the tape murders. John Are Schaefer a behavioral analyst for the F._B._i.. Says this behavior is common stating when criminals commit crimes they feel an overwhelming need to tell someone what they did especially if the crime required hard skill and cunning criminals crave recognition for their nefarious deeds Susan's fellow inmates reported her statements to authorities while investigators were linking the family to the tate and Hinman murderers they also discovered evidence of Charles involvement in the lobby Janka murders the leather material of Charles is deer skin suit match the leather robes used to tie the hands of Rosemary and Lino Law Bianca in the previous months police had conducted three separate murder investigations without seeing a link between them now with the Manson family in custody. The connections between the Tate Labianca and Henman murders were staring them in the face. Now the police had found the perpetrators of the murders prosecutor Vinson Bull Yosi began to build his case against Charles he would have to rely on witness testimony and for this he would. I need to convince some of the family members to let go of their devotion to and fear of their leader Breaking Charles is hold over the family was a difficult process psychologist and cold expert. Margaret Singer stated stated that the idea of leaving a colt is often unbearable for participants. She says there is a psychological bond that becomes most difficult to sever. Perhaps Charles is most bonded and devout follower was Susan Atkins who had been present for all the bloody crimes. Susan Atkins I the prosecutors sitting across from her he was trying to question her but it was hard to focus on him she he had to stay alert and case. Charlie tried to send a message tour. The lawyers kept telling her that Charlie was far away in jail in Inyo County but Susan knew that Charlie was everywhere he he was watching her now. You would know if Susan betrayed him. Her lawyer told her that the prosecutors wanted her to testify against Charlie. He told her that if she didn't cooperate prosecutors would push for the death penalty but Susan understood what her lawyers did not death was meaningless. Only the spirit mattered and the spirit lived forever. That's with Charlie had taught her. Susan Atkins belief in Charles was unwavering but she seemed to enjoy talking about the murderers lawyers convinced her to testify in front of a grand jury in Los Angeles. Susan Susan explained how Charles had program the family to do things and gave detailed descriptions of their crimes. Susan didn't seem to realize that she was incriminating Charles. She saw her testimony as an opportunity to proselytize solidifies about Charles's god-like powers the grand jury panel issued indictments on seven counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder against Charles Manson Tex Watson. Susan Atkins Linda Because Sapien and Patricia Krenwinkel Leslie Van Houten was indicted onto counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. The trial began in the summer of nineteen seventy. Although she yeah testified in front of the Grand Jury Susan Atkins Refuse to testify for the prosecution at trial now she claimed that Charles was innocent and that the family had acted alone without his helper influence but but prosecutors had other witnesses to counter this they arranged a deal with Linda Kosabe Ian who had accompanied the family on the murder missions but refused to kill anyone Linda was granted immunity and exchange for her testimony Simoni. The prosecutors also secured the testimony a former family member Barbara Hoyt who had walked sixteen hours through the desert to escape them testifying against a family proved to be risky cya to the trial trial a family member approach Barbara pretending to renew their friendship but then proceeded to poison Barbara with ten tabs of L._S._D.. When Barbara recovered from the overdose she was more determined than ever to testify justify although prosecutors manage to turn some family members into cooperative witnesses most of them remained under Charles a spell fame social psychologist Leon festinger studied similar behavior in Nineteen Fifties U._F._o.? Colt festinger noted that when the Colt Leaders Doomsday Prophesy failed the cult members became more committed rather than less festinger attributed this to cognitive dissonance writing that a person can distort her perception and the information about the world around her in order to protect her convictions during the Manson trial several of the family women gathered outside the courthouse every day singing enchanting crowds of onlookers lookers inside the courtroom Charles tried to disrupt the trial with a variety of antics including carving a small X. in his forehead just above his eyebrows he arranged for a family member to pass out a written statement went outside the courthouse it read I have xt myself from your world. No Man or lawyer is speaking for me. I speak for myself. I am not allowed to speak with words. So I have spoken again with the Mark I will be wearing on my forehead after he did this. The family woman appeared at the courthouse with X.'s gouged into their foreheads but the trial moved forward as scheduled hold on March Twenty Ninth Nineteen seventy-one the jury returned to guilty verdict Charles Manson Susan Atkins at Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten were sentenced to die in the Gas Chamber Tex Watson had separate trial was convicted in October of nineteen seventy-one and also sentenced to death but before these sentences were carried out California Supreme Court voted to abolish the death penalty in one thousand nine hundred seventy two Charles remained infamous in prison attracting notoriety in part due to the devotion of his followers in nineteen seventy five family member Lynette squeaky foamy attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford Secret Service tackled her before she could shoot Charles might not have ordered the hid himself but many speculate that Lynette did it to impress him. She was sentenced to life in prison for the assassination attempt and paroled in two thousand nine in recent two thousand nineteen interview. She confessed that she was still in love with Manson in other followers did not remain faithful. Susan Atkins eventually renounced Charles and converted to Christianity. She died of cancer in two thousand eight after nearly three decades in prison Tex Watson Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten have also expressed repudiation of Charles they remain in prison today and have so far been denied parole. Charles Manson died in prison and two thousand seventeen at the age of eighty three but fifty years after the Manson families crimes people remain fascinated by the colts legacy. The Manson family came together at the high of a counterculture movement that encourage young people to reject convention question authority and embrace the ideals of peace and love Charles Manson's brutal crimes effectively destroyed the spirit the sixties as the world came to associate the hippie lifestyle with the wave of crime violence but if Charles has life shows anything it's that he did not need a Hippie ideology or political agenda to to inspire him to violence his militias behavior began long before the nineteen sixties Charles Cousin Joanne told the following story six years old first grade. He talked the girls in his class into beating up other boys. He doesn't like then when the principal comes to Ash Charlie. Why did you do that Charlie's responses? It wasn't me they were doing what they wanted. You can't blame me for that. Thirty years later he'd used the same defense with the new group of girls. Thanks again for tuning into our crimes of passion summer of sixty nine special. If you enjoy this episode checkout podcast continued retrospective into the summer of sixty-nine from July twenty second through August his ninth the summer of sixty-nine won't feature twenty-three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode of crimes of passion next next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new are cast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time when true love meets true crime.

Charlie Charles Charles Manson murder Charles Gary Henman Henman Susan Atkins Linda Susan Atkins Susan Susan Bobby beausoleil bobby Bobby Beausoleil Sharon tate Manson Charles Lecture Tex Watson Charles Stole Rosemary L. A. Joe Charles Guidance Charles Orders Charles
Crimes of Passion Bites: Psychological Manipulation

Crimes of Passion

28:17 min | 1 year ago

Crimes of Passion Bites: Psychological Manipulation

"Hi It's Laney. I have some exciting news for you. Crimes of passion is now airing episodes twice a week. Every Friday you'll hear crimes of passion Shen Prime Bites. Were you'll get a brief episode on a true crime theme that's related to the stories on this show it's hosted by my good friend Greg and it's a fantastic listening the experience. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome welcome to podcast crime bites. We wanted to give our listeners. Some additional content to help them dive even deeper into the true crime world every week. In addition to your normal crimes of passion episode were exploring the most fascinating true crime themes covered across the podcast network. We've collected short clips from from some of our most popular podcast originals to help us explore ideas like motivation method and madness and show how interconnected the true crime. Prime World really is. You can find the original episodes of these for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. A list of episodes that we used. We'll be posted in the episode description today. We're discussing cases of psychological manipulation. What tactics criminals use to deceive of course and exert control over their victims? Why does it work? And most importantly what are the dangerous consequences of these types of mental domination psychiatrist Harvey Saint Clair defined psychological manipulation as a psychosocial maneuver which uses is aggressiveness cleverness and deception to influence others so they will give gratification to the aggressor this gratification. Whether that being taking hostage wjr cultivating followers or seducing a murder victim is the driving force behind criminals manipulative actions. They desire to gain absolute control over for their prey psychologist. George Simon identified many tactics manipulators use to dominate their victims such as intense flattery. Playing the victim victim to gain sympathy and undermining victims perception of reality through gas lighting. So who manipulators target. How do they select the right white person to fall PREY TO THE SCHEME DR? Harriet breaker identified. The most common traits victims of manipulation possess among them are an eagerness to please low self reliance desire to earn acceptance of blurry sense of identity and a fear of disapproval in our clips. Today we'll walk through a variety of criminal manipulators and see how they identify these traits victims. We'll start with the a clip from podcast original crimes of passion covering one of the most well known cases of manipulation in true crime history. The Manson family by manipulating in group and out group dynamics in the late nineteen sixties murderer and cope leader Charles Manson radicalized its follow worse worse and cultivated an intense devotion that propelled the family to do his bidding. While the most famous killings committed by the Manson family where the tate labianca murders in August of nineteen sixty nine their first victim was drug dealer Gary Hinman Hindrance murder was the catalyst for a string of brutal killings carried out by the Manson family in the summer of sixty nine in July of nineteen sixty nine. Charles House learned that the two men were in the midst of an argument. Bobby Beausoleil had purchased at thousand tabs of Mescaline from Gary Hinman but he then claimed that the drugs six were tainted. Bobby wanted his money back. Charles figured that as long as bobby was asking for a refund he should demand some extra cash to help fund. The families families 'cause in exchange Charleston over a few family members to Henman's house to put pressure on him. Charles knew that Henman was particularly clearly attracted to Manson family member. Eligible Bailey. So he suggested she go along to help persuade men but L. A.. Joe Asked to be excused from duty. Perhaps she guests at the visit might become violent she later said she witnessed the family members arguing over which guns and weapons they would bring Henman's Henman apartment instead Charleston family members Bruce Davis Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner to act as enforcers. They held the drug dealer. Taylor up at gunpoint while the spurn bobby. Beausoleil beat him senseless eventually Henman agreed to sign over the pink slips to his two vehicles as payment mint. But when Bobby called Charles to let him know he wasn't satisfied he was sure Henman must have money stashed away for the next two days. Bobby Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins held Gary Hinman hostage in his home. They continue to make demands for money. Any while bobby relentlessly beat him when Henman told them he'd go to. The police. Bobby was spooked. He might go to prison for what he done. He called Charles. Who said you know what to do? Bobby took that as a command to silence Henman by killing him before four. Continue with Bobby Psychology. cleese note that I am not a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist but I have done a lot of research for the show. The American Psychological Association has expressed skepticism. That people can be brainwashed into acting violently but some psychologists point to countless countless examples of people falling under a violent Colt influence and going on to do the unthinkable. Licensed mental health. Counselor Stephen Hasson use the rise above all Qaeda and other terrorist groups as modern examples of how people can be indoctrinated into committing murder. These extremist groups have radicalized individuals through isolation limiting access to outside information and instilling an US versus them mentality. Charles Manson uses same tactics family members. Look to Charles as their only source of wisdom and guidance some even thought he was the reincarnation carnation of Jesus Christ Charles exploited their trust to make them believe they had to take a stand against the rich and powerful pigs of the outside outside world. The family wasn't just willing to kill for their God Charles. They were proud to do it. So when Charles gave the word word bobby readily obeyed. He stabbed Henman than dipped his hand in the dying. Man's blood to draw on the wall. He wrote political piggy and then painted a pawprint. Charles had instructed Bobby to leave evidence incriminating incriminating the Black Panthers he hoped Henman's death would heighten racial tensions and help kickoff helter skelter. Then the group black taking Henman's cars with them in this episode covering bring the Manson Family Gary Hinman murder was only the first in a series of killings soon after the family slaughtered actress Sharon Tate and eight other innocent people people all in a bid to kick start. Manson's prophesied race wars but Manson's use of fear and violence was an opposition to many other criminals medals of the Hippie era instead. They capitalized on the prevailing philosophy of peace and love in this next clip from colts. We examine Zaman one of the most iconic psychedelic colts. One thousand nine hundred seventy s the source family unlike Charles Manson the source families charismatic leader. Jim Baker relied on ideas. Like Enlightenment and free love to buy his disciples to him like Manson Baker was at the center of the source family but instead of acting as a warrior became their spiritual father offering them love and wisdom in exchange for their loyalty ultimately however this this manipulation created an all consuming dynamic of extreme dependency between Baker and his disciples what appeared to be a mutually beneficial relationship. I was actually in the service of Baker's Crowing Ego Jim Baker typically responded to complex problems by running away from them but this time he didn't cut and run this could be because as psychoanalyst. Daniel Shaw points out in his book. Traumatic narcissism relational systems of subjugation education as a cult leader Baker had developed a codependent relationship with his followers. Shaw writes quote the power that parents have has god. I'd like figures to literally give life and sustain. The lives of their children leaves each human being with the memory of total dependency comp leaders tap into and reactivate this piece of the human psyche followers are encouraged to become regressed and infantilized to believe that the lyft fifty pens unpleasing the cult leader and quote and just as much as the source family members needed Baker. He apparently needed them. According waiting to Shaw the cult leader does not escape dependency instead he and also in many cases she comes to depend on his followers to worship and adore him to reflect his narcissistic delusion of perfection. In March of Nineteen seventy-three the fifty one year old Baker managed to find the second home for his followers which they called the Father House a three bedroom three bathroom home in the hills near the source restaurant. It was significantly -nificant smaller than the mother house. A fact that would soon lead to deadly health risks in some ways life at the Father House went on just as it had at the mother other house. Business at the source was still booming and it still required a few dozen family members to run at each day everyone still gathered for four. Am am meditation and spent much of the day cleaning while seeking enlightenment but another ways everything changed. Baker began channeling new beliefs constantly constantly with an ever expanding emphasis on his own power. He began calling himself by the Jewish name for God Yoga. He taught about the freemasons and ancient Egyptian magic for his followers the pursuit of enlightenment became like a whirlwind game in which no one knew the rules in our episodes on the source family. We go on to examine how Jim Jim Bakker's total control over. His followers only increased over the next two years. Eventually their numbers surged to over one hundred fifty people but when a run in with the authorities in Los Angeles forced the cult of Fleet Hawaii Baker or father yoed met his end in a fatal hang gliding accident in nineteen seventy five for some. It was death as glorious as Baker's life but for others. It was a shocking wakeup call. They realized is that for years. Baker had manipulated them but leaving he was guiding them to total enlightenment and intern. His followers had blindly obeyed his every every whim. But what happens when a criminal deludes themselves into believing that they're heinous actions are truly in the best interest up there victim coming up. We discussed the horrifying kidnapping case of Katie Beers and explore the power of self manipulation from the violence and separatist mentality of the Manson family to the all consuming assuming codependent dynamic of source. Family criminals have relied on a variety of tactics to exert control over their victims. But perhaps the most fascinating dating method of manipulation is one the criminal uses on themselves denial and self delusion in our next clip from our show hostage we cover one of the most twisted cases of self delusion the abduction of Katie Beers kidnapped in nineteen ninety two nine year old Katie was kept in an underground bunker chain to the wall where she suffered sexual abuse at the hands of her neighbor. John Esposito or big John but unlike Charles Manson or Jim Baker Esposito committed his crimes out of the belief that he was helping his victim. Katie came from an abusive home. So I'm convinced himself. That showering her with gifts and affection would make Katie happy and feel loved. BANESPA ZITO's mind. He had rescued. You'd Katie from her neglectful family and it was giving you the care and attention. She deserved but in reality he had trapped her in a literal hell on earth. Sometimes big John would come into the bunker and to give Katie food or toy and then suddenly the blank look look would appear on his face and he would rape her one clue about big. John's mental state is how long he remained in denial about sexually abusing Katie. It took took more than twenty years for big John To admit he molested Katie and even then he denied raping her. If Big John Really believed he loved children it would have been hard for him to reconcile that with the obvious evidence. He was seriously harming Katie which could lead to denial a psychological coping mechanism. Awesome on the other hand when John Pazuto did finally confess. He blamed his lawyers for telling him not to admit to touching Katie. There is one explanation explanation that falls somewhere between extreme denial and willful cruelty Catherine Ramsland. Phd Co author of the book inside the minds. Signs of sexual predators says one of the most common types of child. Predators is the quote fixated child offender fixated child. L. Defenders are stuck at an early stage of psycho sexual development and rationalize away. They're abusive children as showing affection. They may no their actions are wrong. But their fixation on children overrides their moral sensibilities so John might have known he was hurting Katie. But because he was fixated and felt unable to stop he tried to convince himself he was actually helping her big John's grand gestures like the promise of a car car and a huge amount of money on her eighteenth birthday seemed like further rationalizations of this abuse. He was able to convince himself that kidnapping napping and sexual abuse were actually a net benefit to his victim. John had molested children. Before and in those cases too he cast himself as is a helpful male role model in their lives. Among John esposito's victims Katie's sixteen year old maternal half brother John Beers the hostage victim. Katie beers survived for seventeen days in John Esposito Dido's bunker throughout her captivity while he tried to manipulate her into forgiving him for kidnapping her. She used a variety of tactics to convince US Sposito to let her go. She pleaded with him if he really loved her. He'd let her leave. Grow up go to college and have a family eventually. ESPOSITO ESPOSITO turned himself into the police though it's unclear if he was motivated by guilt over his actions or fear of being caught either way he led ed the police to the hidden bunker freeing Katie John esposito demonstrated how criminals manipulate their victims while they already have them under their control. All but how do they gain potential victims trust in the first place in our next clip from serial killers. We'll examine the tactics of lust murderer Fritz harmon or the Werewolf of Hanover harmon. killed at least twenty four men from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty four all between between the ages of ten and twenty two to lure his victims in he sometimes offered them assistance or accommodations. Several of the young met he murdered. Were runaways this made them especially vulnerable to harmon strategic kindness. He brought them home to his apartment supplied them with food food and drink then once they're guard was completely down he savagely attacked them after getting away clean for the second time new confidence. Fueled Harman's bloodlust. So when he met seventeen year old wilhelm she'll TSA at Hanover over station in one thousand nine hundred eighty three four weeks after killing Fritz Franken. He couldn't help but approach. The boy by now. Harmon had a practiced routine for finding finding suitable victims. He often patrolled Hanover station under the guise of a police officer. Searching for vulnerable boys shoots was a young writer who had just is to run away from home and this made him an easy target for Harman Harman had impersonated. A police officer pretended to lend a sympathetic ear. To the boys troubles bulls. He offered shelter place to stay into warm meal. She'll say eagerly accepted the offers and followed Harmon to his apartment. The room was small but spotless. After nearly getting caught for the murder of Franca just weeks prior harmon had scrubbed every inch in fact he had been scrubbing the place with harsh harsh chemicals so often that other tenants in the house had complained to the landlord. A widow named Elizabeth Angle but harmon had long ago explained angle angle that he was very particular about cleaning habits and she saw no reason to bother attendant for keeping US room tidy. Besides harmon was charming angle. I liked him. His charm also allowed him to urge young boys like Schulte into his bed given his pleasant friendly manner harmon was always able to get close. WHO's to his victims without making them uncomfortable in these situations harmon especially like to ask his victims about their families? This line of questioning seemed reasonable bill. Coming from a police officer but Harman's true goal was anything but noble. He needed to know if anyone would come looking for the boy according to Harman he he didn't always feel a violent urge to kill the boys. He brought back to his apartment. In some cases harmon kept young men around as errand boys for several days. He gave them small jobs or meals until they stopped coming around other times he raped the boys but did not kill them but unfortunately for Schulte Ah. His answers made harmon confident that no one would question his disappearance Harmon pulsed. He grabbed shelter by the throat and held him down down. He raped him and in the midst of the attack sunk his teeth into shelters Adam's apple this episode of serial killers further details. Fritz Harman's six year reign of terror as the butcher of Hanover. But during that time the police couldn't help but notice the sharp spike in the number of missing boys and teenagers. His crimes were eventually uncovered when the bones sounds from his victim started popping up around town in rivers and fields when harmon was arrested. Police discovered stacks of young men's clothing in his apartment after killing them. He sold off their possessions for extra cash at the end his thriftiness. What's his downfall every part of Fritz? It's Harman's interaction with his victim. Served a purpose from where he hunted to how we approach them to how he killed them. He was entirely calculated in his manipulations. But for some criminals their actions aren't so nearly deliberate rather their manipulations are encouraged by their own delusions. Our final clip from female criminals covers convicted murderer diane downs. Diane grew up in a strict religious household. Feeling unloved loved. She searched for ways to fill that hole her entire life. She finally thought she found the one in Louison. They carried on a serious affair for the better part of nineteen eighty two. But Louis concerned by some of Diane's behavior. She needed his constant attention and affection. She also lied about everything spinning whatever stories necessary to keep him close to her. Eventually he broke off the affair and went back to wife. Diane Ryan was devastated so in May of Nineteen eighty-three. She devised a plan to win. Lou Back if she made herself a victim he would have to compactor her to save her sadly she involved her three young children in the plot making them victims as well one night Diane took the kids out for Dr then. She staged a violent carjacking on on the night of the shooting. May Nineteenth Nineteen eighty-three detective. Doug Welsh interview Diana at McKenzie Willamette. Hospital Welsh was the responding officer officer that night and this was his first homicide case. Diane told Welsh that she and her children had gone to visit her friend and Mark Cola a nearby town town in Oregon on their way home. She decided to take a longer route. That was more scenic even though it was growing dark as she drove her three sleeping children grin down old. Mohawk road deserted country road near the Mohawk River. shaggy-haired man flagged her down making her. Stop the Car Diane. Dan got out to ask what he wanted and he demanded. She gives him her keys when she refused. The man's snapped pushed her to the side reached into the car car and shot the sleeping children. Diane then pretended to throw her car. Keys in the direction of the riverbank to divert the gunman's attention they struggled for a moment and he shot her in the arm but she managed to get back in the car and race away to the hospital. Parts of the story didn't make sense to Welsh. He said quote sightseeing when it's pitch black out. And why are the kids fatally or near fatally wounded and she being right handed shot in the left arm. I mean think about it. She's the biggest threat to him. Not Three sleeping children and quipped. In addition Diane's account of the events on Mohawk road were inconsistent. And she told Welsh. The man was bushy-haired then said that he wore a ski mask I. She said that they were attacked by one man but then she said there had been two do then reverted back to one. Her evolving narrative is consistent with pathological lying the common symptom in those diagnosed with histrionic personality disorder. SORTA like Diane. The ness is going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode. Please note Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. But she has has done a lot of research for the show. Thank Sammy according to Dr. Mark d griffiths patients with HP will often lie as a way to enhance or facilitate their dramatic and attention seeking behavior in this case with the dozens of police and doctors in the hospital focused on her. Diana justed her story. Sorry to appear more dramatic as needed while Welsh took Diane statement. Doctors fought to save three downs children as we further outlined in the female criminals episodes detailing dying down story she. He had a long history of pathological lying though her previous lies never had such high stakes now with their children's lives on the line. Diane constructed an elaborate carjacking story to explain their grave injuries however her attempts to manipulate investigators and her increasing desire for their attention exposed exposed her increasingly convoluted delusions. Ultimately one of Diane downs. Children died from their injuries. The other two spent months in in the hospital recovering. Her three-year-old son was paralyzed from the waist. Down her oldest daughter Christie initially lost the ability to speak but when she recovered. It was her testimony at Diane's trial that center mother to prison for life while the criminals that are clips today utilize is different manipulation tactics. They all shared one common goal to gain control over their victims. We saw Dr Simon's manipulation tactics at play. Diane downs tried to make herself into a victim to manipulate police. Enter ex-boyfriend John zito tried to use intense flattery to win Katie Beers affection and even to saving himself into believing he was saving her. We also saw that. These manipulators chose victims very carefully paying attention to those who are most vulnerable as laid out by Dr Breaker John. ESPOSITO's dictum was not only a child but an abused child who desired the approval of adults. It's many a Fritz Harman's victims runaways vulnerable to any small amount of kindness. He showed them Jim. Baker offered identity and acceptance to its scholars who look to Baker for guidance. Enlightenment in the end they all achieved their goal of complete domination. Thanks for tuning into podcast. Crime Bites we hope you enjoyed this episode episode on the tactics of psychological manipulation. We'll be back next week with a new episode on Mother's misbehaving. We often think of mothers as the consummate Smitten nurturers. Why did they sometimes hurt the ones they love most even their own children? If you'd like to listen to the episodes that we discussed today in full full simply search for our podcast original shows crimes of passion colts hostage serial killers or female criminals on spotify. Why not only to spotify already all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network? I'll see you the next time high podcast listeners. It's Laney if you love crimes of passion we love to hear from you. By taking a quick survey your feedback will help us. Continue Making your favorite shows better than ever please visit podcast survey dot me slash passion to answer a few short questions. It may seem small but your input really matters. That's PODCAST podcast. Survey Dot me slash passion. Thank you for your continued support and for listening.

Charles Manson Katie John esposito Jim Baker Fritz harmon Diane Katie Henman murder Katie Beers Bobby Fritz Harman Charles diane downs ESPOSITO ESPOSITO Harman Harman officer spotify Jim Jim Bakker George Simon Doug Welsh
Beatification

Something Rhymes with Purple

35:31 min | 6 months ago

Beatification

"Hello welcome to something rhymes with purple. The podcast about words and language and gender which rings i would say about wonderful capillary with macy's ident and my zoom partner giles. I didn't forget your name. Their jobs i was just looking at the arrived puts behind you. How many books do you reckon you have in your house. Oh i don't know many many thousands most unread. But i just like possessing a book. Books do furnish a room. And we're both in our zoom studios. This week i've come into the basement. The basement bunker. I felt the news in the outside. World is getting so grim. That i thought i'm going to retreat and this basement room actually contains books that i have written or published. All of those all signed j all of those behind me over. The i've written too many books. Not all of them. Good they all kept down here. And i published a lotta books to in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties. I had the idea was on. The pioneers won't call celebrity publishing. And i was a friend of kenneth williams and i suggested it to kenneth williams people. Listening internationally may not know him. He was a most entertaining. Acta rotter a delightful human being famous in this country for the pitting of many as in the carry on films before that on television and things like hancocks hoffa and very much a radio voice as well particularly program that i've been doing for many years for just a minute delightful and being anyway. I sent him usually do a book. Kenneth and is What should i do. And i came up with the title acid drops. 'cause he loved telling stories that had little twist in the tale and we did a number one bestseller and that led me onto doing a lot of celebrity books with a wide range of people. Michael kate with him called not a lot of people that oh goodness dudley moore every kind of entertainer. We did books with and it was huge. Fun how amazing. I've never ever had a number one bestseller apart from. I'm pleased to report in two categories on amazon. My current book is number one in historical comparative linguistics. I think that's fine. Catch doc humor and this one's relevant to today christian theology. I'm number one in christian. Theology have absolutely no idea. Why although i do mention to saints and she. That's our topic for today. Isn't it because you have told me at the that you have you sleep with a book of saints aside you do on your bedside table my wife a good idea. I have the right kind of dreams. She gave me this book. Years ago. i've got in my hand. Noggin shut to. You is zoom but the listeners will just have to picture it. It's the penguin dictionary of saints. And i've had it for. Roy goodness forty years and i do keep it at my bedside because i like dipping into a book at bedtime because otherwise i tried to read a novel i fall asleep and the next night. I've got to go back and sort of read the pages. I fell asleep over again. Whereas with a little dictionary of saints can dip in. And i can discover a story of an intriguing story about somebody who somebody must've thought once upon a time was good and i like to go to sleep in fact i always go to sleep counting my blessings when i turn out the light and i said good night to my wife i then lie there and i count my blessings and i was beginning with my wife for reasons of insurance and imposing since we're sharing a bed but then i actually count the blessings of the day and You know it's a family and its friends and its food and it's all things so that always gets me to sleep. It's basically a big thing of mindfulness. Isn't it gratitude. took giving. Thanks really key element of calming the mind. Apparently under another. I have to tell you it certainly works and it means that you end up going to sleep with a smile on your face and curiously. I read some research somewhere that if you can visualize something for about two minutes long time before you go to sleep. It can affect your dreams. So that's one of the reasons to. I read about saints because i think what am i gonna spend the night with anybody. Spend the night with somebody good but then for a while. I had a a rather healthy. Joan of arc fixation but we can come onto that later. I you say because the stories are in. No exactly benign. They quite often. They are incredibly grizzly. Bloody this conversation began because of was talking about susan. A yes and you didn't seem to know there wasn't susan but lots of people have emailed us about this including soup. Pinfolds sue sabin Susan ekelund and proves nacho susan's rich rosenfeld got in touch to say the innocent susan and her feast day is the eleventh of august. Okay according to my victory of saints. The originals and susan was a room and mata possibly known as susanna all susan betted near the baths of diocletian probably historians legendary. She was the beautiful niece of the bishop of rooms. Chaos and she was tragically beheaded for rejecting the hand of diocletian partner. Maksim a father and two other uncles were put to death for supporting that. And you say it's a pretty grim story but she was a good girl that other since susan's of whom not much is known suzanne. Nick was the armenian wife of a georgian prints. She was martyred about the persians. The oldest existing work of georgia literature is an account of how long sufferings who made a good point. Actually i have been thinking about these people. I think about the bright side note about the grim ends. Tell me about the word saint. Where does that come from. We'll same goes back to the latin sanctis meaning holy so it pretty much does what it says on the on the tin. And of course that gave this tank to mona's which is you know somebody who pretends to be incredibly a virtuous etc and other things and ultimately eighties from a verb meaning to consecrate. What does it give a sanctity on sanctuary as well and also function. Because the first sanction was a church on ecclesiastical decree yes and lots and of words in the same family. there giles. the innocent child's in his feast as the first of september. Okay when i was a little boy. I often went on holiday to france. My parents i've worked out didn't really liked me. That's why they sent me to boarding school during term time and abroad during the holidays. I think they thought i talked too much oldest anyway. They sent me away. And every summer for the whole of the summer holidays. In france and france then was a very very much catholic country and saint's days would tend to be important and so the first of september the feast of some giles in french. Gene it can be spelt with an is his normally with a as we know spellings were not sold to find really whether until about the eighteenth century so lockdown i was all incredibly fluid. Yeah something caxtons help so a little bit before them. But you're right not fully standardized for a while so never mind how you spend it. He is the patron saint of crippled people is also strongly associated with child and indeed with fallen women. So i've always felt. He was a guy and all of us in france. Little boy you had a special k on your saint's day always made me sick. It was a hugely creamy cake. And i hadn't developed my sweet tooth at that stage obliged egypt and invariably associated zen stay with throwing up now. Let's explore before we go back to individual saints. Can we explore some of the words to do with his whole world. Because you're right. Many of these saints become saints. Not only because they had holy lives. Who early christians the because they were martyred martyrdom come from marta. It goes back to a greek word meaning to witness c could interpret that not so different ways. I'm assuming it means to maybe witness the power of god but yet to slightly strange beginning. I have to say most of these words became with ancient. Greek miracle is slightly different. A miracle goes back to the at murari which meant to wonder oh to stare at in one day and miraculous was an object of one day but it always makes me smile actually the mirror that we look at in the morning when mistress might find ourselves idia repulsive in other words. We didn't cavazos repulsive repulsive and that actually goes back to the same idea to stare in wonder so it was makes me laugh Personally i didn't get american star in wonder the reflection but yeah that's where that one comes from. Do they do that. I was taking a selfie. Takers i'm thinking partner television program the other day with a couple of Chums of mind one of whom was the great gemma collins from the essex. The great juicy and post show she was happening. I think it's called shaking booty and waving up bottom at wingels cameras so that they could put them on. Instagram thought. This is curious but obviously some people quite happy with that said belfi about selfie iraq to cell he whatsoever that belfi a belfi selfie and our friends our mutual friend carol autumn also seeing body was a brace of butts being waved at the camera. Yes i think. Carol's one rare if the air or some slight. Gps prize quite often actually not. I'm not sure she celebrates fat. But i think she has won it when i she celebrated because she was shaking the booty. It's a bottle to belfi possibly how we got there from the world of sin susan's in lower amp. Laming is this. Get to beatification when you become a say. The price of becoming a saint is. I think there has to be a medical associated with you. Miracle we've established is was hit again. What does it wonder from the latin. Yes to wonder. An objective wonder cuban. So you've been martyred or you've had a wonderful life and a medical as occurred. I think and then you are beatified. Beatification was the origin of that case back to a word meaning blessed. And do you remember. We talked about blessing analogy. If that which can quite dark in fact. I think we covered the grizzly words quite recently to bless was to consecrate with blood so quite often it would involve a an animal recreationally a human sacrifice that goes back to the same thing unless place today quite often with martyrdom blood is associated so perhaps it is in fact quite appropriate. You have the devil's advocate of course as well didn't you a when you're being put through becoming say yes. The argument takes places to whether you're justified and somebody as it were puts the counter argument. They are the devil's advocate. What's the expression. Well that is historically. That is all about the roman catholic church and it was a person appointed to challenge a proposed beatification canonization of a saint or verification of a miracle. And then it sort of course. You didn't meaning to me. Somebody who expresses a different opinion disagrees in order to test the strength of the opposing arguments. He'll sign many playing devil's advocate in. I'm just testing the of what you say. Say yes. that's one that we've definitely taken from the world of saints. What about the finals. Once the devil's advocate is had his say say you then do become a saint. By being canonized doesn't being far from mcallen is it can cause a book. What is the cannon with one end at. This goes back to the greek meaning a rule. That's my general sense of it. It was a general rule or very specifically it was A church decree. I'm from their cannon. Canes minna collection of sacred books accepted as being genuine. Which is why we talk cannon of literature. So it's it's kind of hard core journey that would but definitely cannon with one end from the latin greek rule and then through the canon of beef lieutenant relief i think canon of beef is a particular chunk of beef but okay account that they m piece of artillery is back to the latin for kane or read a large tube says the idea of tube and that. Could you come loney as well. But i'm not sure about kind of beef. I've never heard that. Let me look up cannon. If you're new to something rhymes with level what happens is this we just chanter on and susie almost always knows all the answers but occasionally when she doesn't she's honest about it i'd bluff. I'd invent something no. Suzy actually checks it out in the oxford english dictionary largest and we think the best dictionary in the world though webster has a lot going for it trying to keep on side with the americans and waste is great. I can't find anything about cannon beef enough to leave that one with me. We'll come back to the calendar beef. Can i say suzy. Urine angel the angel. Thank you. Well that's peaceful. That gets to greek again angelos. Meaning messenger a messenger from god. Angeles is a beautiful wedding. it's always remained which for our flow in. Sometimes they take a turn for the worst but this one has definitely not an angel was the name given to an old english gold that was cooled the angel noble and that was during the reign of charles i and it was stamped with the image of the archangel michael he slayed attraction. And then you got the client. Angelica hold on michael slay the dragon. What i thought was george that say drag him. Well i think that was the archangel michael is was. I think this is not the same dragon. Different dragon at different dragon. But yeah so the plant. Anjelica was the angelic curb. Because it was believed to be an antidote to poison and disease and to be on the side of the angels. Do you remember that that was disraeli. Wasn't it who was refined to the controversy about charles darwin's book on the origin of species. And he said. I'm on the side of the angels is mining ape or an angel. I am on the side of the angel. What a piece of work is man. I dipped into my dictionary of saints. And that is michael. The archangel feast day. The twenty ninth of september. Obviously a very big dude. I'm just checking whether there is this story. The no no in the in the the canonized world of great saints. The well known passage in the apocalypse is where he appears about the war in heaven contributed to his being honored in the west as the captain of the heavenly host and protect christians in general and of soldiers in particula. I'm just glancing down this to see mention of this dragnet. Because i don't know that. I had about dragon if you know which came. First some georgia's dragon all the dragon. The t the archangel michael according to susie dent dealt with a please let us know it's just bubble at something else dot com. Something without a. Gee i wonder who invented the dragon and where that word comes from. Should we discover that after the break. Yes and i have to tell you about saint catherine rada as well of course celebrate laser saints. That what their way into english words. Good stay with us also from something else. Katie papers extraordinary. People join katy for a series of powerful and inspirational conversations people who have triumphed over adversity with guests including fern cotton. And what about when you get really lazy. Journalism select people draw. Just one line. They take out of context and not really sad because this is seven on the receiving end of it so many times sometimes to really tragic levels may worry not foul able to cope with their. So he suck. And nadia hussain. I think the thing women firstly is that women sometimes don't always like to see other women succeed. I think that's right. yeah. I think there's a lot of that and i think that's why just it's really hard. Sometimes because if i if in the last four years i've changed so much missing now in apple podcasts. Spotify and all good focused apps without giles contained about account of beef. Tell me actually our producer. I think monty beaten one. It looks like accounting. Apparently is dublin nothing to do with sheep of the contract. Meet the second. My homework was michael and slang We'd love to hear what people know about this propriety. Standard iconography that developed of all kinds of michael was as the warriors saint slaying attracted on those this been beautiful all depicting just that and how long up dragons being around or at least how long the word dragon been around what i can goes back to assimilate greek to an dragon. Goes back to the greek for sup and so it was one of the first sentence in english in fact in the middle ages saving. Nearly text is really difficult to know what they're talking about. A python was the medical fire-breathing monster. But yes it came into middle english. Say we're not talking about anglo saxon times and the word simply means it's a greek word list wreck on serpent. Yes there's a saint call center drew go. You know who is believe it or not the patron saint of the ugly also the patron saint of coffee identify. That may be drew go drug. Oh interesting since jude. Can you tell me passage by the way because nick you mentioned him. The jude is the patron saint of law schools. Look him up here. We are first century. Apostle an apocryphal document. Alleges that jude. The apostle preached the gospel in was martyred in pressure with his federal fossil. Simon jude enjoys great popularity as a powerful intercessor for those in desperate straits students of the publicity column of the times newspaper outer wear. This is because this book. I'm using was published many as again in the old days. The times used to have advertisements on the front page and people would give thanks to some jude for his intercessions in little advertisements on the front page of the times. So i if he's the patron saint of lost causes. If you are desperate turn to send jude. Okay if you ugly turn to some drew drago if you're desperate for coffee tillerson drago. Can i tell you about two things that found their way into english because he would never guess it. I think now in in our exit. I think long way back about our favorite holidays. I may have mentioned the would remember this what you said them. Okay say on february. The third is the feast day of blaze and he was a sixth century physician on the patron saint of wool comas because he was martyred apparently by being attacked with alan colmes more grizzlies and but also also afflicted with complaints of throat and there was a blessing administered to sufferers if any problem with right through the touch two candles held is cross against their throat. The reason this is relevant to tawdry is because afflictions if the throat all behind this another saint episode rada. He was the daughter of king. Anna of east anglia and she fled from really unhappy marriage and she founded in abbey in ili. Now the site of the city's cathedral but when she died she died from a tumor of the throat. And she has self said. This was divine retribution for the vanity of wearing necklaces. As a youth she became the patron saint of ili and poplar name of saint audrey and the city had an annual fair in commemoration of her and her devotion etc and they would sell sink audrey lace net brand of lesson ribbons in the name was corrupted toward release and it's a quality diminished These tawdry can't describe anything cheap shoddy which is such a long way away from the wonderful audrey. That's extraordinary well the judgment. The language sometimes takes. I know and my other favorite one just just to finish off. My two favorites ain't stories in terms of s. Malusis is simone martin and again apologies to regular purple people. We talked about but this is quite extraordinary. Martin day is never the eleventh on that commemorates the funeral of martin of tool. He was a full century. Raymond soldier but he has got the most wonderful story of charity benevolence attached to him because as a soldier in goal he's said to count shivering beggar on the streets and he couldn't will cone he couldn't pass by and he took off his cloak split into and gave on to the man to whom him up that night said he drove christ wearing the half cloak he'd given away and saying to the angels harry's mawson the roman soldier who is now baptized. His closed me and on his death. Half fat cloak was kept as a holy relic in a sanctuary that became known is a cappella and cappella means little cape and that of course became chapel. The cappella became chapel. Acapella means church music written for unaccompanied voices in a chapel so again. What an amazing story from martin if tool to the west chapel. It's brilliant. this is why i love something. Rhymes with bev leone. These extraordinary journeys. And if you want a to help you navigate linguistic journey. Do please get in touch with us. Also put his right on certain things you mentioned. King anna the king of the east angles. Yeah had another daughter called site. Or seth is named after a saint saint sites. And what did she name for. What is known for a beauty and her integrity lovely which is quite nice though king anna wasn't happy matted man and should paps of turned to some to go g. u. m. a. r. Us who is the patron saint of difficulty death. I loved him when he's actually the patron saint of difficult managers. Say if you manage manages bridges and cameras and may be able to sort it out and this unusual saints julian. The hospital sounds like a good egg but he is. What is all specialty. of course he was. He's also the patron saint of murderers But even ought he killed his own. Parents apparently had good reason. Anyway he's a saint and if you are upon on a charge of murder. I it's either jude. Julian the hospital for those or maybe some rita. Rita is the patron saint of the impossible. Wow if you're hoping wishing for the impossible something that seems so elusive. It could never happen. Egotism reach medical out. Dream the impossible dream so i i love this world. I love the idea of saints and angels and all of that and dragons don't you. Yeah which we were told this at school. Because when i went to a convent. And i did confession and we were given appendi- penance afterwards. Night get three. Hbo or something. Which would be an three eight three. Hp pencils Which was three hail marys. Would've i never never i. Didn't i was told about the saints and nevada to say prayers to the saints gordon angel. I remember that private nice pacific saint going to give you a quick quiz. And then we're going to get onto your three words of the patron saint of because this comes from the british isles we brought all over the world and please do let us know where you come from what your local saint might be if you have them on. Have them if you're a devil worship. This is an ecumenical podcast. We celebrate all faiths and none so feel free to get in touch on. What go you want to susie dent patrons into england coach date. No idea does april traditional. Shakespeare's day as well as the dan which he died. We knew that of april. We catch it. He was born. Then i'll come on twenty april. George scotland andrey weld on. What's the date november. The thirtieth of november the cross of dandruff by tradition prevents which is from flying down your chimney and causing mischief. So if you've got a cross and andrew place it by chimney wales patron saint of wales. Bruce davis ideas from the first march. Isn't it correct. David's of course useful pass quiz people smallest city in the uk. That when you're next next take part in celebrity pointless. It's the one dimension when they say you know small cities of david's finally island on indecent. Patrick i i get his march again but i this terrible. I can't remember exactly which day it's the seventeenth much and he isn't. Patrick is credited with banishing all the snakes. From and i don't think he was as effective as people think. Because i remember going on a tramping holiday in county cork and that definitely was the odd grozny in the heather accept peaceful am. We must come back to this. Topic is we haven't explored some joan. And i'm completely fascinated. Always have been. But we've had so many letters communications. Thank you very much for being in touch. There's one here. I mentioned the patron saint of toffee on. It was coffee. Wasn't this is says hi giles. And it's from bad a hill. In halifax i think maybe england or could be had effects nova scotia. Thank you very entertaining show. I've a seasonal christian for you. Why is bonfire toffee called tom trout. I wanna use some rhyming slang to do with plot. This is because in this country on the fifth of november traditionally. We have bonfire night marking the arrest of guy. Fawkes and other conspiracies attempted to blow up parliament at the beginning of the seventeenth century yet. And we talked about bonfire being an abbreviation of bone fide. And we did yes tom. Trump is a real mystery. I'd not heard of this before it. Says in the candy made of trickle the same as taffy. It says it's a type of tree coffee at toffee hunting. But it doesn't tell us why no one seems to know. Would it make you to lou. I'm no idea. I doubt it but it goes back to eighteen. Twenty nine is the first record we have in a glossary but yeah. Nobody seems to know site. If anybody out. That does no i would love to hear it. Great jim-jams i johnson suzanne big fan. Thank you often. Listen while doing the washing up. Who i that's okay. I liked like up. We've got a washing machine. But i like washing up. I find it very satisfying anyway. I'm pleased to find a reason to get in touch with simple on a phrase that i couldn't get my head on. I was reading a collection of victorian short oughta stories and came across the line. Let's get out to this acoustic place as fast as we can. Actually have the gym gems. If i stay here so jim gems that. I'm pajamas. exactly. Well says sam campbell of coach. Wooster what did the horrify protagonist mean when he won't of having the jim-jams and how is it that we now use it to describe pajamas. The story was from eighteen ninety seven. If that's any help guess It's lovely range of meanings. Jim dams in the d. And because this particular entry hasn't yet been updated isn't actually mentioned pajamas. It mentions everything but said jim. Jam is what we call over jeep gated term or duplicated compounds. So you have in willingly shelley shelly. Helter skelter etcetera and base elements in this case are unexplained normally can understand one of them but these ones seem to be entirely whimsical. like flimflam. Trim tram win-win excetera. So i in sixteenth century a knickknack. There's another offensive low trivial article. Then it moved onto me peculiarities. Fantastic ways then it meant the dt's in the nineteenth century but also in the nineteenth century. And this is where. I think this comes on. It mean jittery. Leanest fidget were fit of depression. So it's really almost being a word that can be put to any use. She wanted to be because it sounds. I think it does sound like you've got the the challenges but it went. It went the way of pajamas simply because the jams reminded people pajama. Yeah it's jenny doesn't seem to be viet. Thank you for that now episode all about schools education. We discussed different times for playing truant. Is it skydiving. Bunking playing hooky. Lots of people got in touch with phrases for sneaky. act From brisbane in australia. Nathan scott thomas tells us it's called wagging school there. Yeah i think that's possibly. It goes back to the idea of a wag. Being a mischievous child that gave us the wags. It is the comedian. Remember because it short for why coulter somebody who hangs in the news sites like i fit to hang as grizzly but i think it was applied if it can be a semi jokingly but i think that's where working school comes. The idea of mischief a wide halter you hum from a wagon. Say a whack coulter with somebody who yes basically be hanging from the holter around their necks. It's it's pretty grim but it seems to have always been used playfully. If that's possible for a mischievous child or somebody gets up to no good other words. Skydiving when you think means bunking off school. Skydiving or not doing proper work. Neil hot will gets in touch to say when i was growing up north hampton. It was perfectly normal to see job advertisements for skydivers. Is it a wow term from boot and shoe manufacturer for someone with a shop knife who slims down the edge of leather beezus before stitching. That's what he thinks. It is a sky ever. Yeah absolutely right so sky. I'm just looking this. I didn't know this. It will somebody who has all split leather seats for bookbinding lining hats and other things so am very good and that goes back to a very different route. 'cause this to sky off school is s. Which means to dodge in. French is what we think but to skydive in this sense of leather is a viking word and it's related to shy and shy is like a slice jordan. Manley hopkins talks about shy of light. Is the light that shines through the kind of trees so they're all linked beautiful beautiful. Put finally chris morton emails to say i grew up in south lanarkshire just outside glasgow city limits and many parents who've moved into the attia. All substitute teachers have shock moment. When kids say they've been dogging to me from school. I know i'll say dogged but both my parents myself. I'm twenty five and kids come in school. Use dogging as the standalone word cont trading catholic tradition. We must promise people. I want us to have another dirty it episode. It's a while since we actually got down and dirty sound slightly to excise it at this point. I just feeding that. You know we've got to give people something to live for these agreement times and nobody actually wants. I mean nobody wants to dogging but people quite amused to hear about the chance of the word. I found it. Sorry as you were talking excitedly about doing dirty episode founded nine thousand nine hundred five it can mean originally in the us to at lazio halfheartedly to slack idle all to shut. Avoid a gt said. This is given us american rather than did you. That was australian. South lennox does go. Sorry okay but i think it's once again the bad reputation that does seem to have them. We always just described any kind of able to them which is extremely fair. Play good just to say we. Will we do hot dogging episode. We will warn you. They will be a health warning us if you don't want to hear about it please. Don't meanwhile everyone a trio have you got a trio of words new inspiring uplifting words. I've got some things down because he mentioned dragons. I'm giving jam in what start with. Which is often footer. Dawson footer. with d. r. a. c. h. e. n. Which means dragon then footer. F. u. t. t. Which means food spit sexist. This one dolphin. Footer is a gift to man will give his girlfriend or partner of any description in order to appease them for coming home late or having done something wrong footed. It's dragon food lou. Yes yes yes anyway. It just reminded of that one this one. I love going to stay with foreign languages. It sounds something i learned this week. And it's finish none of no idea how to pronounce it. But i'll give it a go cosima which is p. o. r. n. k. u. s. e. m. a. An it's an old finnish measurement of around seven and a half kilometers and it's calculated by how far reindeer can travel before. It needs to pay. So i think literally means reindeer. We aside left. Stay actually have a measurement for according to how long range reindeer can go antigua jazz. I'm gonna stick with language why. Not we're gonna have a foreign language trio. The third one is lag on which is swedish and it just the golden quantity really not too much not too little just on like on women in the world of saints. You've given us beautiful language. One of my grandchildren has given me a limerick to sham. Saying grandpa you'd is still doing punch at the end of upon cost. I said yes. They gave me this. Limerick i pay purring walls in the lou and quite frankly i haven't a clue for the patents are wrong all the papers too long. And i'm stuck to the toilet with glue only podcast which will from dogging to eliminate grandson get into listen to that one. That's all for this week. It is our lord yes something with purple is something else. Production produced by laurence facet with additional production from patty well. Steve abdomen ella mcleod jabil. And golly he's out dogging.

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#237: Christianity

The Agostinho Zinga Show

1:02:53 hr | 1 year ago

#237: Christianity

"Let's say you just bought a house bad news is your one step closer to becoming your parents you'll probably along and skip anybody noticed you mow the lawn tell people to stay off the lawn compared to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again good news is it's easy to bundle home and auto through Progressive Hallo friends welcome back to the Agostino Zingo show with me your host Agostino Zinger and this is episode number two free some trying to stop that I'm trying to stop my UN's I'm trying to stop my swallowing my my sniffs but you know what can you do in that regard I think those the nasal surgery longtime ago of maybe four years ago and they finally got rid of some of my sinus issues Bob Asleep over time with allergies and stuff popping up out of the woodwork it kind of has nine ten twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen eighteen nineteen twenty minutes check out my utilities Agostino Zingo checked out on youtube it's super hot nasal you should I think a lot and also snippy as you can tell you what you video okay and how am I doing amazing Benke Pas goes you can see them dress somebody to go before quickly quickly getting a little quick podcast before weekly head off so because the straps in Milwaukee and also that Malacca I've noticed in my recordings have been clip in some of the clips whatever my youtube wait a t-shirt I'm probably wearing boxer shorts I shouldn't be wearing tonight on that day 'cause you know they've been probably possibly sell by date probably stink but we haven't had a haircut seven does to the how you guys doing how you feeling good puppy got the well early mornings I'll keep my voice down before head of to what all these things there's probably some shit laying in the background only would listen to the here I'm listening to this horrible Macabre Shit I probably got fruitful of nothing rapper gottfried full of spinach a couple of glasses of edam cheese an essay like it's just going to look so sad people coming Ziama God this guy died like this largely awful I wanna die on payday it is ugly head bumper to most part I'm always slipping a tad here and there but it's amazing looking for the past business on my old episodes here my my voice talking like that Buddy Papa okay number one of it took about Kanye West is not happy with Kim Kardashian because you're dressing too sexy ah look horrible your imagine my my imagination day shoot me at home I haven't I've been moisturizing bomb off of my body just about mushrooms my face my neck and my arms you should check out is it via podcasts at checkout to oppose older little Clinton a podcast on there you can see this funny stuff that I mentioned on so funny stuff the topics I mentioned if you don't listen to the but it's just it's just a lack of care and attention he took when he came out saying the things that you said you didn't take any consideration of just how sensitive wow okay I haven't really earn your respect for me too I under right because before one hour if you don't listen to do you want this to two minutes three minutes four minutes five six seven eight knows you go back in the day when the head nasal polyps I couldn't not yes wasn't gonNA smoke my surgery when I when I snapped in woods when I when I went in Gemini so it's all well and good all right I'm okay I'm fine I'll be all right don't worry guys coordinate there's local police I'll be fine if you're in America deputy could a police Mimi to check on all right because and I inhaled knowing how to help your mouth and I sniffed whatever it may be my nose is actually sucked into the air was coming in previously that in happy because you don't you don't need that the previous fucking album now is complete bullshit quite with full auto biographical seemed like a it'll new leave and you're setting a new direction then he went on me they're pretty easy clips channel Lincoln by if you guys to check I hope a whole place clips Paul Net and Yugoslav see them but yeah no it's I say Malarkey Qua of them in May be expect more of your life or to demand more into kind of go in this kind of self actualization route there's appeared on time doc was in America he didn't really seem like you read up on anything he didn't seem like he was knowledgeable the facts who just nothing that someone does I remember someone accusing a former friend so you kind of get preachy and you start telling friends about them how they should start this side business side hustle and haddish optimize their social media and how they should sleep earlier and drink not women are more I am a bowl of ice cream which in the next minimum game POPs in my head Jerry Sydney House imagine you're showing your own house right Jimmy I police officers you're always imagine it's really mckelway looking bird died I have a good outfielder Ron die with shit outfit because you know you just Cabrera and awaken in the beverage some self help solve some motivation some direction in that person's life and different basically said Oh I don't know what you're basically can't you can't imagine not doing right if you don't do them you you'd rather die right it's that kind of idea that's a calling you wanNA play Schmidt be an artist is occupation it's something that you feel mytalk response when you more but someone member mentioned something to this friend that was quiet wow that that must have stunk that fulmer firm was CTO and bad coffee that stuff right and it gets annoying if that's your friend because essentially you're right just living your regular nine to five life pick up a ticket end of the month greg suddenly become you said decide you want to become the champion it's like no leave me alone and if that happened qualify them by that journey is probably by the Senate Gop hey you know what a good joke I find it funny if you're not gonNA laugh jump one jump away via them back in the hosting the trump isn't topics see see kingsway kingsway intestinal Christian Center on the biggest churches in the UK maybe at the time the biggest church in the UK Used to be around Hackney the reading about how Jesus Christ allegation saved him and I'm only saying this from the point of view she been to church are we always go to church free times a week sometimes four times a week in the Summer Wade Beautiful World I'm no I'm okay we just touched this fans to decide what we want to carry on their journey but we don't we should dictate what they should do to that's not to get older do you think no problem ladies and gentlemen you don't need someone to tell you to do these extra entrepreneur because you want to do right it's it's something usually most callings in life are cooling because they things ship I don't care about my attic leanings I think as the artists are allowed to go whichever way they want to go in life even musically this idea that somehow your salvation was gonna come through this country you for the actions of this man that was you know no no different to you know the difference between you and this guy on stage but really passionate about so then some of your friends decide to kind of go on this south hope also discovery poverty suddenly start telling you about how you change your life because they like shut the fuck up man like we'll just acacia just where he is now he's spiritual journey and maybe maybe in the future he will become a little bit more reserved and he would just let his actions speak louder than words and he won't be annoying guy that bill tabled you know when you when you when you first stumble Onto Robbins or if I stumble upon Tim Ferriss will whoever you touch wherever you guys go is that kind of gets you tonight try the ages of like twelve maybe eleven eleven maybe like what twenty three twenty to go to church every single week right ninety plays a big bus center station garbage so I'm used to I'm used to the hypocrisy of church people and that's the reason why stop stop going. This is a good example of this this conversation with Kim even though it's a marriage thing is a standard compensation debate you'd have with your partner it's that big of an issue is probably a good oh my haircut I think I'm looking at Chris Brown and Shit I mean my best shooters or something I mean I i WanNa die on point tie fucked up and that's when I realized that Oh web doing black Christian Baptist Churches or evangelical churches isn't I isn't the doesn't represent will so journey deal you own you know everything goes okay but I knew when you lose the plot when he started to do this whole thing and scientific a little bit preachy and Leti is overall record sanity has different facets of course don't get me wrong him about ignorant the process they had in a Christian in Black Evangelical Church was completely wow in fucking Dawson Jimmy game fucked up on drugs and hanging out and talking shit to random people and all of a sudden you want me to go I don't know practice more China morning because void of any for me genuine quite spirituality spiritual waken in I duNNo Forgiveness Hmm enlightenment avoidable just seemed like a transaction you will go in especially during the Eid Josie and stuff you get preachers coming in and telling you go buy this book in order to become a millionaire by this uh well known in Brussels quite get adjusted they finally just in the first kind of church Catholic Church session we went to was there ever been to Catholic Church was the fackler why do they have to go for you to get an say what kind of just like cut you out the middleman and goes right to go right to the source and I kind of side question about some some the Olympic pocket right so that whole area for me now is complete mindful because I remember going there and I used to be with our church was the market will be there the adult trucks they're like just faith fucking black magic and digital that shit it's something going on funny so people think will seek salvation through those places because food so be it tough to get acclimatized there most of the people that went out school were from the area I will have school vaccinated but I do most people were from the area kind of actually restored my faith and restore Christianity some respect is I went to Catholic sixth form Saint Bonaventure for go to secondary school went deficits simple adventures and we went during a East where they put the chalk when your head is that the troika pink with a Choco wrapping Easter resurrection so we went there for that really crazy mad family drama gotta do it money s do with which has a very weird relationship with money God anyway Catholic Church have the time and I and I saw an actual service went to be the preacher in or the the Pasta awebber how would you you know it's Kim Kardashian he's not marrying I duNno it's not marrying one of these mom this fashion youtubers right he's not married one of those kind of goes you have a very will strangle family especially African families to there's loads of loads of let this very rarely you'll find an African family that doesn't have some kind of chaotic awesome message made you reflect on a week and made you kind of took you out of yourself it made you kind of appreciate your your position in the world and how insignificant bus not just the plot kinda supply I'm a big fan of his I've got you know listen most of these music if no I've listened chased out of your own community by Ideo and BNP guys and she's just a weird time to be an English so imagine coming here with no English and trying to just it's just a weird things I get Christianity comes savior how he had to the divine word divine message to tell you will get to the next level kind of a little bit scientology but of course we're gonNA disparage Crescenti regard but you know it was awesome grapes knowing that much here at the top of his go go go go go him list you call them a preacher that was doing the summit in Catholic Church you know four minutes Max owes maybe an hour or in and out nice they've had to go through their family their families the preference of friends it's just been so even just to get justice didn't come into England right I don't know what they came what was it early this will get you a new business by this book all spread semesters I'll just walk in complete garbage and just prayed on preyed on people that will go through bad times our maybe financial I don't I don't go at all but those period time whereas I really question my faith as far away as time goes churchill just really getting a bit you know kind of leading into the atheist lane but comes black China overnight after marrying because she's got the money next up you've got a reason as a husband to kind of hey what was I didn't marry when it comes to points of view outside of music and outside of anything creative positive but this is just so many laws in the hypocrisy this is just amazing you don't have to stand up and jump and Shell and do some fucking Shit just had all have to do is just be attentive and listen to this person's took on stage that was it and I went can you are the place the place that you played in the whole world you could be of service to others it just felt really encouraged why didn't I didn't have to like give him any money survey Pacific point of view a particular ticket Pacific way of looking at the world so if you go on youtube modest fashion go and has a hit job when suddenly feeling Oh wow this is meant to be about but then when I see Kanye West doing this stuff with Kim of interests of Christianity Dia where suddenly now the wife that you married who teas or early late eighties fucking difficult like there wasn't that much unity you're gonNA black communities right you'll get input Caribbean people like fro she you and stuff and you'll get in this waves changes person but it's Kim caution essentially whole whole image a whole empire has been built on her sex appeal she's kind of Segue two in now to law degree sauce often a low of a prison reform stuff but but most part that's her whole appeal sex appeal you go out with her because she's sexy best the whole thing you've got to right so then only Sunday not turn around and say him saying it but here's this guy's on this I don't know again happy where the shoes and happy to go to concerts but anything else do you know in general this is kind of making me uncomfortable it sparks is kind of reeks of a preacher sit him down and saying something or points up these head I think so in my in my opinion I'm not sure what you guys think but oy she suddenly gets accepted into it so she's very aware in the same regard as I mentioned it when he did his abrasion that he was very aware that go to nothing about fashion should he even though she's dedicated her whole life to fucking image creation and fashion and consumerism and materialistic lifestyle I should dedicate waged having really excited the realities of basically are so that's why I served my parents don't really take it because their life has been so difficult see sneak ahead of the most you know I don't know the most opinion fans out there for the most part so if he if he would have been trash you know her the end of it and I right Kim Kardashian's had a very fort relationship with God old fashioned in January it's only in the last few years you certainly been accepted into the fashion circle which is an annoying say the whole life today where she basically expert a world class player in kind of you know making show you look really good on social media pictures he pitches to them online sometimes you like she people are like kind of pooh-poohing are making you should know the coach doesn't know anything about this knowing it right and she probably buys more fashioning any of these editors that talk about the video from the stadium are just play now for you guys you can hear for me I think listening via the podcast APP helps to hear loads Camman and go it feels like there's something a preacher would say to you and you like yeah you know what my wife is drafting a bit slow at the moment is your wife man stand up for her you know what I mean so his his around when you watch youtube is G- especially Gill youtubers that girls have all day my life in the morning entering emails is that they make it sound like they're digging he's very aware of how much damage I could have done to his overall say brand but maybe reputation may be immediately in my very aware of how much it could it could hurt him so the amount of people that are out there that don't really like him don't really like the way it should careers panned out house except we become a short period time they kind of wave him to fail so an aw come on my life threatening with French built me up to be this like sexy person confidence cooperation or collaboration sometimes you want to maybe hear stories about especially parents maybe Algeria Parents Parasol boomer because you know the people in this fashion circles most part just benched players aren't pretend like they're ace talk players she's the one that's been dedicated in pushing things impression but these crashes view the sixties fifties full ease you know there is stories of like your data your mom putting their career at the dream so one sided with to kind of raise a family right it's just all this stuff just because you're on a journey you're on your transformation doesn't have the right I'm in the same spot with frank good you said that right honey you can feel a little bit let's say you can't get guilt tripped into because you don't want to do and now the imagine being ship emissions of being in a marriage a whole different level Christina has a really good because my God I've been I've just I've been running around I'm just so tired all day just running around crazy things you've and save on your car insurance which of course we'll go right into the Lawn Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers discount not available in all states situation the virtual sick and I think Kim is very aware that too she knows that she's only one one bad away from being costly as well yes the poverty you're a team now you become a family you join names you know swap flippant DNA and create a human right it's like it's different level of like ah okay cool there's different levels we just made different you know you look at some of that Brooke Lese lock our listeners not me not me right they're both in different rooms by video I madness happened in our family and inside the Toyota we were in our own way way he started going to church with churches and now my church mostly toll balances for the most part Richard Richard Test people as a bit more even especially nowadays you'd think that you know undefended look in the mirror and say look I can't be a drama I can't go until his ban I can't be an artist or poet I can't go and pursue a law degree so that pressure maybe to be a little bit like you know what maybe is right you know especially some people in the comments you know she's there's a common thing that people would return back as she posted naked all you got kids that you'll kid you kids maybe it could play any amount of weird to say that so much as she loves and say look I respect your lane but don't now impede a mind is a good response but also it goes to show just how we got new job there will be going around and telling everyone listen they should seventeen day falls too not knowing that number one that might have been dead Joni if you're ah I'm your host maybe so van Gogh she said that that was a brave to be honest to say that too because I assume that position because she would be on his brew recover from this scandal Christiani he's now suddenly time tell you that you should be dressing up mother stayed imagine Kim Kardashian this like what the fuck that I'm sure she'd probably kill it still they can't look at this enroll lap and then you meet someone actually yeah they do look at that and then you see a video she came in like no makeup vogue Turkey or something you're like Tony Negative energy now say into me wearing tight or so episodes video itching you hit that phrase it's like I'm GonNa go you meeting Komo Gelb yourself anxiety then watch video like yeah is your God caparo nothing now see I'm like you know what actually causal pressure equally your husband's sitting across retelling you suddenly now suddenly decided that he's a Christian because he looks all black was I was actually criticizing Kim was how the fuck is goes for annoying because I only saw the bit waste is giving me now we'll phrase I have a child and I have to feed it so I'm just GonNa go to market what Moya up and you know keep it moving so there is that pressure even nowadays even the full of the Moon I think he's saying the kind of things I heard in church people would speak in opponent is they some fucking seventeen day fos and been Chrysler spurts I've been south at him number two it might just be a coincidence that they happened to go to seventy in fossil hunger-strike and suddenly their dreams true there equate in two things as a as a reason why they got the other thing when really there could be completely separate issues and they're trying to then tell you to do the being too like no that works for you now but also the journey the two is a journey if your journey's now might be later it's not something easy right away and it's like now report on hiep's images of a new easy seven hundred basically easy I I could they played again please hit up making the figure like him yet has has had many questionable figures like in the electrical cocoa white music moby you have Morrissey you have annette music would absolute genius making train a genius I'm making close but when it comes to political views when it comes to this stuff now around Sunday you beat up pretending to sleep in bed you data fucking open the windows and turn on the lights and stop playing fucking Gospel Music Max Volume House like this people in at traffic musical in indie music people don't necessarily like right that it Kinda Bryan Adams personality either way runabout I was I was assured by a friend and actually the models of seven hundred and the callaway was wavering which makes sense because look more like waves there but Dan oh absolute legend absolute legend beer big up on you you know could you do but of course will things there's a union the young graduate absolutely fucking love the Guy I'm sorry he's Al Morrissey okay telling people he's he's the HIP Morrissey not the hypothesis had it affects me built me up to be this like sexy person and confidence and all this stuff just because you're on a journey and your your tree Bruce Davis define them yet these ones so all nine hundred nine fifty formation doesn't mean I'm in the same spot with you okay on race travel this go in it by foolish hate it now okay all right so Charles with most people I think number one would be seven hundred number two would be the seven hundred no seven hundred number two will be nine fifties the easy Mac fifty fifty fifty isn't it that were all seven Pacific I'm doug seven fifty murmur so easies the easy the front nine hundred is he's using nine hundred nine hundred yet one so those are my it doesn't really have him right and this is sudden we've got one we've got new as he is our Morrissey finding divisive bigger who's a fucking genius it's such a baby trophy at the end okay okay cu it's the baby theme but it's actually I'm not gonNa Watch it now right I'm not gonNa have you guys foresee means because nasally I'm not a culture enlighten person because I haven't washed his fucking TV series so you unlimited amount of mineral boots right Jozy Moon Medes we're actually going to watch it has increased only happens to in my regard I think probably happened because I got forced to go to church every day or the days I didn't WanNa Guard force I'm is probably my favorite shoe out the whole easy collection to use the seven hundred think maybe a controversial decision I think my top free issues are probably the ones on them with blue seven hundred Monroe boots and nine fifties and nine hundreds knows my favorite busy so fall would us newsletter seventy so diesel diesel be my my favorite eases Aleksei days the seven hundred min walk and maybe the original nine hundred thousand nine hundred hundred thank sevens that is nuts or at Christian mate okay so there is occasion of course this is the number should couch all right okay I couldn't even in these moments when he don't like him so if you owe you high vis pretend to be workman out day Caprivi happy about that As has revealed that they're becoming shoe was designed by listening the designer Christian tresser current easy designer to Stephen Smith who both works in re book in the Early Ninety s the easy seven hundred reaches a padded tongue okay cool orange which look really cool so this article might be the following series teases we now have some rough pricing is about eight hundred M v N previously known as easy seven hundred VX the latest model is set to debut in a sleek triple black which I'm a big fan of local course on black shoes or inch Kinda high vizor Calloway armie 'em Timothy Woods sneak on what can designer luxury houses for the most part they just do the laziest thing and copy legendary design models superfund maybe mature to win the argument is bump Talca child okay all right cool colosseum hundreds of blades on the other side of them with people who you might like which I'm a big fan of I think is probably the first easy they've got an actual big logo or big numbers I'd most easy to have like a pattern they don't really have pre stripes on the Neva or they're quite subtle the striped usually like a free thing maybe the first easier though so far has gone actual what did Christian tragedy back in the day Oh he designed the MS ninety seven's fuck off it's this guy's Jean right cool man he designed to the Metallica after the whole map surfing washy have you have maybe James Murphy. LDC Elsie sounds like he's snubbing shapes silhouettes from the big sneak brandon necessarily innovate. And I guess if you had supposed to the world with the money the world's actually make a chew get it tools and manufactured us of the tongue another version added feature you save hundreds of dollars a new modem shapers be twos by search those are my favorite talk top free ones but three to seven hundreds of my favorites have diversion free because the festival or maybe not the free fifties with the kind of numbers of the front they might be once that's got big logo on for so maybe anywhere but the menu in general but I quite like look these really user-owned there's a colosseum hype article about it now pricing deals about the seven hundred m and the N. does a callaway in black and ought to be a check those out these are going to be out very soon or black also safety orange I can't wait to see what they look like again just if you're not familiar with its use basis basic just really go hand why wouldn't you try and go crazy because imagine that ninety seven here on screen so there's integration of black and white is was made out someone's head someone designed to Imax said what did that Guy Design this Christian tresor that's quite woman I'm eager to see what these shoes are going to look like coming forward this this get that search up on there and get the screen and just check what they did thinking sitting there thinking about what you could look like that's just insane how could I look at that that is so cool he designed Air Max Ninety Seven bazant Saints Kabuki somehow under the sign is a wrong way round so it should be facing left to right right to left on a boost wonder why I did that as a design choice but this is the reason why they don't have any role time for designer shoes apartment but Ngoga shoes of course anyone wants to give me some niche audiences you said Holla Holla play but having e Dan Max seven once owned your property worth your your your your hourly rate in a two times over but yeah the Nike Nike's e seven hundred MBM ended basically ended a number they tied in shoe designed it that is insane while guess so this is the Nike Max Imagine Designing his fin out in it runners and you've got the V two's and you know there's there's a motive a team because the move after the after the waiver does have never model I've gotten the Toke that's got the elastic is amazing radio station platform is into e dusty kiss me and my bedroom you will like you know angry typing away while we wipe away fucking crumbs of dogs had record deals or who were had charting the regular charts and it kind of go on is it like his straighter station was the major leagues. MSA Seventy design this other bouquets are very popular to I've got the name of that book that people have a lot of time for yeah okay listener designer man that is amazing I think if you did you to come and stay here not so far about twenty pounds probably the most expensive expensive advertisements right apart from the desert boots does established some kind of gatekeeper responsibility or whatever it may be right this kind of like intrinsic need to kind of be the bastion and to fight the good fight eberl responds to the six nine report all Berry Berry Bre e Berry Berry Boo you know even reminds me of thinking about it now Abra kind of all you know someone no surprise off the years you know you've made your station went away or radio show went away and he's not really I don't know what he's doing this project for logos on with a while reminds me a love him right and even more so because I feel as if like he's so I simply because I think he's very aware of how quickly his job own relevancy can disappear one moment so in order to kind of hold onto it he's got two options right yes a played this kind of villain role and he's also has to kind of giving having billy betting sane Tony anyone anarchy freedom now say that you're not into new wearing or my wife Model v two without all the kind of external patio on the outside it might be a one piece to shaw and it's got the seven hundred kind of written on the side and easy so yeah quite cool shoe and when you went into did it in a way that may be cultivated scene and to have some full of hierarchy and to develop artists whatever it was it just smacks of hypocrisy isn't it just smacked breakfast club but in terms of like cachet in terms of reputation or people in that building upon I seven a very well regarded industry they're the ones that quote unquote make the the Saheed designed for his standing with them who's I did not do it again or whatever it pair of Reebok shoes I love the reebok shoes the idea that in nowadays there is such a thing hip hop is gone so global is become such a big pop music that an six nine can essentially thousand forums and he was on the forums and he came across really bad on the incident happened sometimes right remember this is before social media people have to interact with outlay right so this big dude just how this just how disconnected or does how this is connected just how unaware of kind of married up and got buddy buddy would apple who are very kind of you know who play a large role in ensuring sir autism get certain places and may be if you know anything about hip hop record labels are based in New York the biggest station quote unquote in the industry is hot on seven which is not really a very powerful one five maybe a- and supposedly tell on all his Co. co-defendants Anita crew and he's friends ruin people's lives who you know this could be audited have you know engineering them seemed to go where they went to a very wake especially free but if you know if you know you know so I get it I get it but this one but this six nine six six nine hundred for me represents Oh boom and whatever may be so he has this very he has a very much abuse and whereby proxy he happened to be in New York and also criticized but wait in general he's just trying to make sure he's able to provide for his family which I have a problem with just annoying to see overall but those independence really helped him is that he's in New York what was actually going on these guys are the six nine six I guess six nine yes Doug Monroe he's not I'm not GonNa die on the six nine hill or anything but I think what he represents is just Ebba Logan Sama Jimbo logos has shown one hundred east any news going on is if like he's radio kiss was he hot ninety seven he'd only established artists when the grime scene was not what it was today or the UK rhapsody wasn't when it was it was it was probably only five Odyssey could legitimately bring up on by mouth that shouldn't be on there and you should let so so on so maybe he just for you know what because you're asking me to give it to you but he did come across like a huge ticket right fans and no one will give a shit right that's true because there are so many fanatical fans out there so people who are right Oh died this artists that no matter what they do you're going to bring it again no Connie before I'm gonna buy those shoes say next on the list here Zeke is able to segue into podcasting the happens I'm sure some music fans felt but for the most part most fans are listening to his podcast music as well so they're very aware humor realized by taking part look but don't get me wrong when you when you dedicate itself to that kind of lifestyle you do sign an undeclared that you're going to remain quiet and you guys that there are some artists for the most part can get away with absolute murder like you know what trump said he could stand in Times Square shoot one of these protect webber wooded I don't click it I just keep moving that's what I do my own thing because I have something against these people but I don't understand this need to kind of publicize your discontent and also to say where banning as affect you if I if I don't agree with his decision to rainy friends I don't really have a strong conviction against it watch enough CSI Miami to snitch on your people will tell incb unifrance is a good thing but we're at a point now where we have to realize that hip hop in general has got so big S. he's responded he's responsive to say about now I can indignation is shifting he just got too big for his Britches you gotta big head at the time to after getting the same out of the young at the time do about it must be understood by stuff like I fucking hate the people that do palace Raphael ranker's so what do I do I don't talk about it too much I just don't buy the stuff I don't he's out at Cologne sick man knowledge in this other Christopher talking about today you know we reactive reaction Videos for magazine playing so y'all that much but to have this idea that you want to balance with so now abras responding to I report that supposedly teams TNC say that whole ninety seven while band of interest because on paper he was one of the biggest artists before we went to prison he still in demand now he's still generates moisture clicks I'm sure some of the people in record labels are very familiar with people Africa you played yourself you're on if your kids get school off today and they're like Oh Columbus Day and you're not taking the time to tell him Columbus really was graduates you played yourself gotta tell a man murderer Taras mirrored token by magin having the gumption to tell people progressive state got states around the nation that call today indigenous peoples day six nine don't change dams it's there it's our memories what are we going to do with our men is all the time bad walked from Indianapolis to a suburb where is it was cool told me Aziza Rosenberg the streets shunning Takashi six nine music unless that headline alone is who transmits up and are watching the spikes in engagement of when the news comes up on him so if he does get another deal is so watch it doesn't affect anyone else doesn't affect me look into play six hundred music unless he made a banner now he's come out and said Oh that's not true you guys

Agostino Zingo Agostino Zinger Kim MSA Seventy partner Black Evangelical Church Christian Baptist Churches Chris Brown Dawson Jimmy seventeen day four minutes nine ten twelve thirteen fourt seven hundred min eight hundred M seven hundred m three minutes twenty pounds two minutes four years one hour
Pirate Shaming Lists Don't Work

Techdirt

47:54 min | 1 year ago

Pirate Shaming Lists Don't Work

"Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Mike Mass Nick before we get started with the show I wanted to quickly remind people about our new anthology of speculative fiction about the future work called working features we talked with some of the authors recently on the podcast but I wanted to remind listeners in case they hadn't yet checked the book eighty two infringement even worse the list of infringing sites included the personal website of one of universal music's biggest stars so I was ah bit surprised to see that Wipro the World Intellectual Property Organization recently announced that it was putting together very similar database what it's called fine there was also someone incredibly vibe magazine which is a magazine that writes about the music industry quite frequently and also which is odd for a variety of reasons including if you actually follow the money often looks like legacy industry players trying to avoid competition not actually stamp out infringement for example there was a list that we wrote about a few years ago that was put together by one of the very big a few times in the past where we've seen attempts to create a list of so-called infringing sites and that list of sites would either be blocked some sort of obviousness to copyright infringement that allows them to make rules or suggest ideas based on the fact that I'm the idea that that everyone knows Schmidt and which of course leaked out it included things like the Internet archive and Mio and other sites that are generally considered perfectly advertising agency firms with the help of Universal Music but somewhat incredibly the list of sites that universal had deemed dedicated to that you'll really really enjoy them so please please check it out you can find it by going to Amazon and searching for working futures or you can go to people think that there's some sort of easy answer to dealing with copyright infringement that happens online part of the problems it seems that people seem to think that there's are listed I spoke about these the list would be distributed to advertisers. Say don't advertise on these sites and yet everything about how this list and we know that you'll enjoy it so please please check it out thanks our website about it which is working futures which is working future and dot E. S. at the end So if you were seven of the twelve most popular hip hop blogs according to vibe magazine so these are the sites that help promote the music they were declared dead about different things about what the future might be like it's we're really really happy and proud of the stories in the book and we working futures and then move a period two spots to the left you'll get to the webpage and check it out or just find it on Amazon it's easy enough it is and what is not copper infringement only to realize much later that is often not obvious at all what is what is not infringing for example there have been is peas or handed off to advertisers to allow them to block all their ads from appearing on the sites the industry likes to call this approach follow the money is being produced will almost certainly doing the opposite of building respect for Ip at Weipa is keeping the entire process secretive. There's no molest in the first place while I asked Pipo a bunch of questions I got back mostly a no comment or a promise to comment in the future that I don't think process at all sites added to the list or not told that they're added to the list or why there's no way to appeal there's no way to get off the list which isn't surprising since sites don't even know if they're on the database B R I P which what hilariously stands for building respect for P. The purpose is the same as that someone hilariously named three different government agencies and they were all government agencies that we'd previously written about for Being involved in false accusations of infringement anyways Rick Sheera who's a lawyer in New Zealand who specializes in these topics wrote up twitter thread about a former client of his cloud storage company Mega who wants got put on one of these lists despite the site's efforts stopping infringing content on its site and it had a somewhat significant impact on the company so Rick is here to talk about that Rick Welcome to the podcast Isis because these sites know what they've done because the database was built in partnership with government agencies there was no problems to worry about quality actually come except amazingly for one of the engineers who helped build the database showed up in our comments to defend it he told us that there was no duper indistinguishable reason as to why did receive focus from rights holding organizations what happened was that I entirely funded by the legacy industries the MPAA in particular in fact When the Sony pictures emails leaked there was all these emails about I wanNA cat attack for many many years we've been writing about how much damage is done Laura why Mike I'm glad you could you could China so can you tell us the story of what happened with Mega nigger a UK based brand agency in was commissioned by a rights holding out the MPAA Studios Planning and strategizing with the digital citizens alliance to do all sorts of things to sort of attack in And so I'm going to jump in and interrupt your story the digital citizens alliance they present themselves as sort of a grass roots type organizations will the sudden some little time later opened nights Nigga that Nigga as with many of the mini tops but what else having ever contacted the video so organizations that were listed is the report which included my client National Front for a Rock Rustling Organization in Washington DC to research supposedly and come up with a report it is quite a small startup or head some notoriety and given its relationship to Kim Dot Com right and I guess that's the the Aw digital journalism monitor comfy rightfully so tight or a small starting site at the time that was a clancy you know you would have sudden the payment provider that you rely on for is credit card companies to make millions as it was commissioned by the Digital Citizens Alliance US rightsholder lobby group Yeah and so and the motorcycle brand is all the way in which the report was prepared is consistent with that sort of approach your net companies and to blame them for things and to to prepare sort of press narrative that they wanted that they use so it's very much a front group for for Hollywood al we managed to find out from Hypo why they had decided to do this and in unraveling back to they did a report which was the nine foot got so we didn't know about the The Vince at the time we didn't know about the publication it wasn't until cloud storage size it provides encrypted into creatives story cynicism it started in about two thousand fifteen uh literally we nigger received a call from hi pal saying hey look we are going to tim at your service now for was directly involved in this we had gone to substantial links with a conference calls and emails and the provision of information about me infringing because the report which says they're infringing and Soy Visa and Mastercard you must do something about this otherwise and implied ah the report that I mentioned earlier we found that what had happened was that Faiza and Mazda had put pressure on paypal the head convinced them comprehensively that Nigga was not aside law currently for that they could provide civis soggy literally a couple months after having gone through that rigmarole all of a sudden that without maximizes richly laced in twenty four thousand dollars was a report behind the sidewalk outdoor a report on how shadowy sidewalk businesses put on what an ice cold cyber lockers the pre-k to streaming who showed now cool says is not more prevalent but annoys dies which was a later basically picking up this report prepared by nicknames on behalf of Digital Citizens Alliance and say look kilts on accusation it's Itunes the presumption of innocence on its head simply by someone making an accusation. I'm tasted your in house operates to mollify hype pals consumes that Mega might be I saw yeah and what we're trying to stand is funded by the motion picture association similar yeah I was Gonna say that that's an interesting organization that's worth commenting on Oh sequential fly what then happened was that mega tried to convince taipower that five o'clock this way the way in which people talented information and and got material supposedly eventually infringing from sites on the incident New People you credit card companies have caught two more in the spice here are thirty companies that have a clearly obviously must be great we will have to recognize in this area we'll do something further so that was the station of Visa and MasterCard writing to Pipo and in consequence hypo was touring civis from mega so as we have described it in New Zealand win weeping talk about some changes for appropriate awesome in recent times the stands very much and is very much one without any noxious to the subject that they are infringing copyright suddenly these dramatic and very draconian correct way obviously approached by digital citizens lines and nicknames and nights relies for its renew on on time it provided such as pay pal allow the paint provides and other night saga locker we in fact ironically pointed to a particular slides that the the mass do in order to preserve Saif Haba's by the New Zealand in the United States and Europe and so on it takes the Bruce Davis the reason why visa and Mastercard head put that pressure on Hypo was that I had received a letter from senator appropriate in normal steps to not permit infringing content at a tight infringing counting down delayed you'll ribbon you says win long going to provide service to you and it was incredibly surprising because a couple of months earlier we had gone and because the report was prepared and published it was published with great fanfare at I than in the United States you all of what a Cyber Lucca was compared to a standard cloud storage site they terrible irony of that was that welcome to Saad current Wilson to hide him for infringing content it's not the cloud storage system it has infringing content the sites that it was now accusing of being cyber Lafia Parrots ditty infringes and so on profiting from other people's credit that names claiming to have done rigorous research climbing to her Shaked hasely to save says notwithstanding that it is use it controlled encryption suge has absolutely no control and indeed I sight of that it's interesting in the context of this that Nigga is a pretty big side is one hundred and fifty million uses round the world now it has not they listed in the US trade representative's three one report and it report many people would say is the accounts of infringes that finds on that system and it has vanishingly small amount of infringing content that is tonight fly rods holding organizations to put sites that they don't like all net list mega mega has never been on that list so you know one would material until someone wants to share it with other people so you wear Nigga and pretty astounded at how a report from a little now and brandon. Jessie in the United Kingdom could suddenly cool is this dramatic refused to pull the report refused to apologize double down on the fact that they considered mega infringing alive he and his role as shaven all the destroys MRI of the US Senate it is pretty out there entombs of the same sort of accusation against sitting science that perhaps mainly because you know this was considered efforts to try and add texture sites that they didn't like for whatever reason asked them to shut provides them with masses of evidence in the same way that we get provided pipe hal with a comprehensive evidence that Nigga was I think mainly for counterfeiting and things like that but has evolved over time and they they also put out this special of it was initially supposed to be directed at like you know countries that were engaging infringing activities originally was meant this is the most years because this basically as you said rightsholders submit a list of these are all the bad guys and the US appears to sort of take that list Nigga ticked all the boxes of noble cloud storage site and none of the boxes it was absolutely astounding pipe policy if we're we're starting to you which is a complete shop together because now the stage what was going on after expected that if Nigga was this hyphen full piracy it would have appeared on the US list ahead that's interesting actually and again just to jump in real quick just in case people aren't that familiar with the three one list this is a list that the heat the US tr the US trade representative is required to put out every year maybe do a very very quick check on most of it and then republished it as as an official government document and that's created all sorts of that's that's the yeah there's the special three of one less which names countries were bad stuff is happening and then the notorious markets list which is comes out of that extra list also of websites that they consider to be like pirate markets or whatever and the the process here is kind of a joke and there's been a lot of instead presented win that we're doing with digital citizens the reports in the United States which summarized nicely summarized beard very quickly at that stage but that really school and you know this is this could have the fate of killing niggers business downstream problems but it's interesting to hear that that even with that because I'm sure some of the submissions from the MPAA from the AA Probably included wake up to the someone to ship and think of the cat the university course and choosing these pejorative nines or or or reps I suppose but process and and is is officially separate from the full three Oh one list has the one where they name different websites yep the best as I look which which typically represents the very organizations that we were trying to try to persuade but they shouldn't valet should with thousands within the Canterbury we right to digital citizens once we right through Namus by not surprise that is going to proceed whatever we think because we it's Klein by the that they're Andrew Diligence on mega vegetables dieting refused to get Outta the stage make head the decisions tight will Julie Su the that quite clearly the report was effeminate trae it was completely incorrect they had a phrase accounting firm in New Zealand winemakers based and the chances of getting a significant damages award which would have compensated for the that then it's done where on the advice of all swings get some point so the fact that they didn't show up on the US tr lists is at least a pretty noteworthy they would my Torius markets was home teams heads completely missed its iron criteria in terms of what a cyber law is and make clearly for infringing content that we reject the game to digital citizens alliance and tonight names presenting them with those wings findings elite guided couldn't wouldn't be upheld because you know similar to the WIFI device that we're talking about it is I response to submissions quite limited unfortunately Nigga head to just like suck it up it was one of those things that it it once you've been blacklisted and when I say blacklisted clustered by Visa Agnostic we didn't know at the time that the was so it was a significant event the report that was was intrigued that didn't didn't have the desired companies in the World Bank's do look very carefully at she's right and so you know we I can call we've got fourteen amazing stories in the collection they're just really great and we've been getting some great reviews on them with people saying that the stories have really made them think eclipsed the visa and mastercard had it took actually years for us to find out that that was in fact what had happened was this private triple in other words the media the industry the rights holding overnight stations are validly affirm that that presents so we instructive a stadium called all's weighing in the United Kingdom now Patterson who renowned as just head to live with now for luckily Nigga Hayes because of a win which systems with and because of the support for the secret black cliffs that as critic copies had that that was the inmate available not any pile was in enforcement is companies in the United States in the United Kingdom four defamation and decision was tight and look it's just too expensive to do that it's very anyway Typo but also Mehta found it very difficult to obtain just normal dice day banking says it says we tried by your plots out for them Betas to detail says lot since and review NIGGA systems views material on the site and or of as conclusions pointed to the fact that migos not Assad locker and it was not a highland go to see that in a CO person parliament against companies or against injustice such as digital Susan's allies that four diffamation S. Eight will look your your clearly that so we are quite happy to write a report decent analysis like a legal view they illegal view was they executives of mega attending discussions with thanks in the bank's not really telling them why it was that I went we assist from banks in New Zealand inundated say's because you might expect if you'll black mustard by the two biggest credit cards in I did get the report Tekken Down with you know the obvious threat that look this is this is Kayla defended trade of Mega nigger was a small startup contained tries to stop infringement so we thought well this guy for a firm that is not just a a soft touch patsy I I don't want to be associated with obviously was was a entity that was promoting partial contains and they pitch just normal thanking services the was the company was Nice the New Zealand that was a registered company that type of say it was this whether it's and of its users it has survived it was a close run thing at the time I can recall because until we found is this idea that because of the Senate to lie he later Mega hit being blacklisted. So you know for a small experiencing Simpson's accounts and was not a reason that we knew of why these banks wouldn't give servicing y payment companies would have said and in this instance it's not obviously it's not Nigga who is providing the infringing material so you're you're one step further removed from the ability to decide whether I take the pace of content is infringing that's hot enough by itself but to then try and aggregate right some sort of collective infringement to a to a count storage sought on the basis of a sitting and when I saw the Wifi proposal for the databases database just reminded me so much love how the simple act of putting a company died of ice without affording the company G process can dead example and other examples would have night people think about the fact that as you said with other payment providers none of whom are based in New Zealand so you have to you have to find a payment provided who's prepared to provide citizens die baiser Nas Takata another providers will put pressure on time and providers and it'll be sunny you'll payment provider just ceases providing since a have such a dramatic fix that's the story of it sits it's one would have thought hello obviously had contact with meager and with the visa and mastercard I miss I would prepare to take a very robust approach the people who hold reasonable views on both sides of the equation as to whether something is or is not infringing and so it was it was going to be difficult now eventually make it did find payment providers and it's since down that this is quite common just because for me perspective it's just not feasible for them to take a position anti the credit card companies and the middle ear by under jurisdictions like the United States Europe was elands there are came to arguments from Sanish Lawrence and so on so now when you when you think about how that how the impact of that uh-huh of pieces of content being allegedly infringing is just beyond the pile when you're putting something on a list that has I didn't we've titled Adele into until we eventually priced this tortured web right back to to start interviewing mind copyright infringement is not a binary Yucel neier there is a massive gray area in in rather than him just picking up by hand off towns having gone to those links unsurprisingly they didn't feel forced the seats providing new service so that's it's an inch sustained because system and shrouded in mystery society that we very close relationship with the NBA and they they make sure that he appears in every Batman movie is in all of a sudden five taps are turned off it's very difficult to find you know you have to go through the Rick Merle we went with three with pile that it was a good look for them to back down in such a in within the face of such an obvious argument yeah I mean lay he has sand would have been able to point she names aim criteria for cy blocker and very easily shows that Nigga was not if goes had gone so yeah he he did not that was not a he wasn't just randomly surfing the Internet and come across that so we like it was started by Kim Dotcom who certainly has a reputation I mean he's still still in the process of of fighting the the legal fight over his arrest in the shutdown of his former company which had a similar name which was mega upload and so some people will hear the story and they're like yeah to to stay thin or to a series of them available at any one time because you never quite know when one of gotta be cajoled will persuade so four Latin Nigga I since down you just ahead of you need to have a slice of private providers really willing that's crazy right I mean you know whatever one might think of Kim Dot Com and make upload like you know we should be looking at this case in particular now you've practiced around it you would have expected that assistance that would have come to it and say look we we think you're in oops can't flow through to the rate impact yeah and I mean some people look at Meghan as you mentioned sort of very briefly so you know these are bad people they you know it it deserves to be I'm sure it's mostly infringing and and that that part scares me too because I think coach go on accusation what that is guilt by association mega is an entirely different site from and indeed at the time win the date names report was published this dot com has had no involvement McGrath played it was formed in two thousand and thirteen ironically it was Fulham's literally because they were I mean this is a story but because they were the four gentlemen who are the subject of the of the allegations like pre show us that you not even even as bad because he shouldn't have to shy your preview instance that at least we could have contested the Nigga right now he he retired resigned as a director in in truth in October two thousand thirteen his interested Yeah but but you know you know it's sure it's all infringing right and that's that's one of the responses I hear a lot of this which is basically like yeah you know come over and then were arrested in a in a major operation here in New Zealand which was hugely hugely famous mega is an infant infinitessimal interest now because he has ceased to be involved in ceased to one in a bedroom and I will I was at the time because I had done Jerusalem as in that it was it was appropriate to wet for a site that with now tainted with the same allegations and therefore deserving of the sort of behavior by supplies doc now in Mr Dot com despite the allegations has not been convicted he hasn't even the any of the New Zealand time by were sequestered in a literally in a in a house in a suburb of all coons and and mega and what what it does and what it's done and you know whether or not deserve to be on this list I think as is coke has and indeed still in the same house anymore but they Dot since that time an inch I look I I get that gives it an even higher level of you know respect I guess from from people who might see it I mean they think that this is you know this is coming from the respected organization that is you know it's not you know in the case of like the nicknames report or even the built mega in Ave dream in that house I had nothing else to wasting waiting Salihi reputable organizations who are trying to stamp out copyright infringement is just ludicrous now that's that's not true process that's that's go by association killed by action and that's the danger I think with these sorts of died of Isis yeah so the the Wipro effort the idea that simply because I- person has had allegations made against them in the past must name that anything iron vote was clearly aimed at providing a new innovative storage centers it can dot com included with sequestered here in New Zealand because they had come over from Mr Dot com city birthday none of them actually lived in is that Indi- to support that at all I mean the the evidence we have is a Piper from the committee gone to the lengths to publish this report Lipsey of ancient in the United States and we suspect that promoting the report three to essentially I die in court in fact ironically another side story Mr Dot com has a pain to the United States universal report that I talked about earlier like those were clearly from private companies some people could these take that into account when it comes to a database from Wipro it'll appear a lot more official and I think a lot of people assume that there's been more due process and more caution put into making this list and yet there's no seven Nigga side the relationship between Mr Dot com has long since face and head safest at the time so that was the TMZ even more concerning right I mean because you know why tow is associated with the UN and so it's sort of a quasi governmental organization to some extent and that in fact even against Stein's at mega for air because he feels that the new sites that he wants to form I kind of credibility the proposal that why will create not even cry just provides the mechanism for the creation of diabetes the input into that devices might directly as the report from his committee by authorized semesters MISTER DOT COM as wont decided to poke the bear in the polling data mega win the previous committee that is is addressing it usually might up by the committee is made up of representatives from countries allow I should add that Zealand this was a good thing the fact that wipe oh you know he was just like Oh we're just we're just building technology we're just building the tool and you know it's you know we're only potent point that way night two names as well that the archaic it was formed by someone who has a chicken passed as nice to the Internet companies yeah no that was that was sort of my action to and then the fact that like you know he gave the example he focused obviously on the on the government submitters even though as you noted could be dramatic effects for mega luckily it had supporters that now if you're a startup bidding cash then does not advise yeah and and in fact you know the the engineer from Wipro who responded in our comments seem to indicate that the is that you could live in the world apple all of these companies were stopped by people who press pushed the boundaries sorry at that and they'd wipe out one review those submissions for example go out and have a look at the science and see with her of not being careful about the sites that they block and not really having much in the way of due process in Russia perhaps that's not surprising there's nothing in this that that indicates that it has to be government agencies but the three that he name which were the agencies and France Italy and Russia all have pretty checkered ass in terms of the kind of you know in Russian Italy they both do site blocking and those agencies have a pretty long history of NCOA many of us have that that was a silly idea that you get your report you started but that was his that was the choice that since that time I said no pattern at the Brit proposal which I'm on Grayson by because I think it's a bad puzzle it's an endle- does appear to be infringing went up die will simply put it on their forcing him they will promote it to ties us who are the four encouraged not LEWITT's but if if if you are reliant on some to some degree on advertising we haven't seen in the same sort of way that mega was relied and convince them that they've put something on the list that's wrong that's nothing you know we we don't review wages providing Cintas that's incredibly ironic for without any due process based entirely on accusation for is peace to have to blocked different sites and we've covered examples in both cases in both guns for a variety of reasons Russia the Russian government is actually used copyright against against enemies of the current leadership all of these protesters but but you know even more to the point you know there's a lot of both Russian Italy have site blocking laws that allow coming in these these authorized submitters so what's the problem why why is anyone mad at Weipa insist Arnie's at the Y. Potions about it it it's the it was it was a satellite tree listen to how the sorts of these sorts of arrangements sort of relationship multiple times their exams there was an example a few years ago of the Russian government actually using copper and working with Microsoft evolved allow their ads to be served on these sites and if you're an ad driven at driven renews if went on Having Pipe Hal when private providers provide it was service that can be that could be tuned off and so they have a dramatic effect on a site that does should cite it because of course that's the argument that the organizations used to criticize homes they say well look we're just a platform she's of sites that clearly not infringing that are included on those lists and so for why to say like well you know there's no problem government organizations what's what's what's the big deal denise to crack down on protesters and claim that they were using pirated copies of like Microsoft office or windows in order to arrest done that but you know but Weipa itself when I reached out through through official channels are really just like wipe people were not very encouraging I was happy at this engineer came in and explain stuff and then he he got very upset when he realized he probably shouldn't have struck me as is really really surprising and really to me suggested how little thought that anyone working on the database have has actually put into this right I mean they it like so many people they just assume that these things are obvious and easy and and don't even seem to recognize that there might be a problem around you know John's but wipe is using executive the same just providing the bathroom about something to do with us Joe and talk to that in countries of Mrs there is absurd a status full action such as in Pi and defy in the kingdom and so on so basic due process or what actually counts is a site that is dedicated to infringement and so that that worries me greatly and and my interactions with with in an echo chamber of people who all have the same view yeah then you want case they sorts of issues because everyone is in agreement normal sorts of things that most of us would say an appropriate way of dealing with a very complex issue. Yeah Yeah and I mean related to that too really understand how people could arrive at a conclusion that I list like this wing as you said there are plenty of examples if he's having you had no interest in commenting and and basically kept pushing me off and saying well you know we won't comment until until more things are official and I was just like shouldn't shouldn't you be able to names of alleged part sites all night died advice is going to result in anything but false you know particularly stop into the stock instead of starting with Advertising Revenue Cambay quite important in terms of the royal revenues is then insight I just ridiculous you cannot suggest that allowing this interest to put the from the stock so it spirals from their two proposals that in the cold light of Diet and they were reportedly discussed most people would answer press questions before these are official I think our with the best will in the world if he said and you look at the history of sort of innovation around content and the ability to to create and distribute broadcast content you know accomplished it's that becomes to light but the four that were put on the list had the opportunity to make submissions the sums of appeal prices and right the understanding is that the author I submit is going to include the mark solve NPR or it's digital citizens lines right put someone on the list and effectively kill it as it's getting started with no due process no transparency you lose and you know and so imagined with any of those technologies if the legacy industry before anything gets started could just put them on a list almost every one of those new technologies in the days declared infringing I mean it was true radio it was true television industry of Cable Television Satellite Television in the content creators because it gave them new new sources of revenue routes for for distribution and all this kind of thing new channels and you know but it is part of the there's no you know most of those other technologies they went through various legal fights and in some cases you know different legal structures were set up and mess you'd have a few years maybe a decade worth of legal fighting where there would be a mess but each time that would create sort of you know a better world for everybody I mean those sorts of

vibe magazine Amazon Universal Music official Wipro World Intellectual Property Or Internet archive United Kingdom Mike Mass Simpson Schmidt Pipo NPR Weipa Nick Jessie Mio