11 Episode results for "British Union of fascists"
The Westminster Walk: MI5 and MI6
"Welcome to Spies of London the Westminster walk. So I'm getting ready to record the Westminster walk. This is the one that begins at Pimlico Tube Station by the National Crime agency doubles back through Pimlico towards dolphin Square. That's an apartment building famous for spying and other things into the gardens opposite and then a look at the American Embassy the new American embassy at nine Elms a short Riverwalk a look at MI6. That's Vauxhall cross the current MI6 building which opened in 1994 carrying on along the embankment took a state and towards Tim's house the current home of MI5 and then walking through Westminster itself looking at Westminster school where Kim philby went Marshall Court which is friends with Maura Southfield the home office the new home office the old home office, which is now the ministry of Justice the home of George Blake santoni's Hotel the new Olde Scotland Yard, because it's not long. The headquarters of the British Union of fascists not necessarily in this order Broadway buildings, which is the former home of MI6. So you can contrast the kind of former. You would have seen or heard off of the old MI5 building on the Mets phone York, which I have recently which is like if your house on cars and string and then after Broadway buildings, we talk behind their into Queen Anne's gate where you see another month old even older headquarters of MI6 in Mansfield coming today an army office used by Clayton Powell and were down cockpit steps into some James's Park walk along the edge of Saint James's Park which was famous off buying in its own right and then finally standing outside the treasury in the foreign office to talk about the foreign secretary and the foreign office and how that relates to MI6 in particular and then if there's time you can take a walk down to the police memorial which is in the other colony of the horse guards area of Saint James's Park in the mouth. You can go home from the mail catching a bus in Trafalgar Square, or you can catch the tube from Westminster dog. So that's the basic outline of the walk the order changes and sometimes the direction changes. When I do this in person, sometimes I think it's good to start in the busy area and in the work gets gently quieter as it proceeds, but if you end up stranded in Pimlico, which has only one tube station, it's not enough great line. You have to go to Victoria and changing so on so that's why we start in Pimlico cuz that's kind of the easiest place to start because you literally outside each station and then I can leave you towards Saint James's Park which is essential part of London and very well served by buses. So there are some tips for you if you'd carrying this walk out in person or if you're interested in joining us off at B&B in the option. I'm not going to start recording episode one which starts at the National Crime agency tune in soon for this walk. home
Virtual Walk: Westminster (Part 2)
"Welcome to Spies of London the Westminster walk part too. So I left you in front of Tim's house. If you walk around the back gone to thorny wage rates, you're walking along Milbank left at the roundabout left again into thorny Street. Then right into page straight walk along Page Street where you will see sent Jersey Gardens on your right and then take a left into Marshall Street and the building directly ahead of you across the road is Marshall court-martial card was made famous specifically flight number 6E as being the home of Morris Oldfield one of the great leaders of MI6 Morris Oldfield is the basis for Alec Guinness has representation of the character George Smiley from Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. It's not true to say that old field was the model for the character because John le carre in some respects. Based smiling on his boss John Bingham, but when Alec Guinness was researching the character for the TV series. He asks John le carre if he couldn't meet somebody who was a spire and Ash suggested Morris Oldfield and set up a lunch between the two men for the heavy thick glasses of my sold field gray hair is all Alec Guinness off. This is the character in terms of physical appearance that became George smiling in the BBC television series, but all filled was a legend because he modernized MI6 he was a Statesman and an absolute professional during Old Fields tenuously Direct General of MI6. A lot of time was spent worrying about issues during the trouble on the island of Ireland. And in fact terrorists planted a bomb outside Marshall Court specifically to assassinate Morris Oldfield Morris would often go from his flat downstairs to Shepherd dog. Restaurant and I have here a note that suggests. It was once called lockets. He would often eat there and one evening as he was out Irish terrorists planted a bomb amongst the flower baskets outside. The restaurant outside Morris is flat because he was watched Around the Clock Metropolitan Police Special Branch realized what was going on and defused the bomb, but this perhaps to show why there was so much secrecy around Mi sex at least in the sixties and seventies and perhaps Why by the nineties it seemed a bit ridiculous. There were genuine threats to Secretary of State for Northern Ireland including area Nev who you will meet in my Baker Street World War Two war and also to members of the police and security services at that time. There were a natural Target for terrorist activity. So Oldfield lived in the shadows. He lived here in March from Court, which all over is very handy for today's temps house MI5 was quite a walk from Broadway building wage. You will see more Broadway buildings later in this work. So we walk back along Marshall Street from Marshall Court and Shepherds towards the main road. The main road is horseferry Road, and you will soon come to a Crossroads diagonally opposite you is the modern-day home office. It's a very modern building. There's rainbow glass above the front entrance. No need to spend much time here except that this was the location because it was quiet or often spoke about the Bulgarian umbrella murder true to say that the Bulgarian umbrella murder had nothing with MI5 but it's a quiet spot for a longer story. So come off the main road down one of the side streets to listen to this one. So back in the seventies ricin was a deadly poison in the way that perhaps polonium or novice your car today. There was no antidote and a good dose of ricin would ensure death back. Then there was a Bulgarian dissident had become a journalist, which is All that parallels to Alexander litvinenko who is mentioned in my Mayfair walk. But Georgi Markov or Yogi Markov was known to the Secret Service known to be an anti-communist months later and fled to London to work as a journalist. He was not safe in London in the same way that Sergei skripal and Alexander litvinenko or not. Although Markoff was Bulgarian. It was a communist country with much of the same Sinister secret Services one morning as Mark office walking across the bridge across the Thames. He felt a sharp pain in his thigh. And as he spun round he saw a man dropping an umbrella and then hurrying off in a taxi. This seems to me to be the only evidence we have that it was the umbrella used to deliver the rice and pellets into Mark offs leg. He felt unwell let that day and went to hospital where he later died. The ricin pallet was found during the post-mortem. Now, the interesting thing to me here is that after they were dead. Actually investigated this they found a copycat assassination attempt in Paris a few weeks earlier on another person where the rights in Pallet was not firmly lodged or a went wrong didn't result in the death of the target. But it shows that the Communists were using this the pellet in the leg the metal pellet containing ricin which would then be slowly released into the bloodstream and showing death safely after the Assassin fled has all the Hallmarks of the polonium and novichok killings. They are silent killings poison based killings with off of a delay to make sure that the Assassins can flee the country before the alarm is raised. I'm not convinced about the umbrella rest of delivery mechanism. And neither is the Berlin Spy Museum would have a replica of what they think the umbrella might have been like, but they're quite clear that they don't believe it was used one reason I have is that simply a metre-long walking umbrella all month? Might look like a gun from a distance. We're not talking about firing a pellet out of a gun in this case. The umbrella was stabbed into the leg and then the rice and released perhaps with a button and a spring mechanism. He was not fired like a projectile if it had been fired like a projectile. The Assassin would not have needed to walk past marked off which is what happened on this occasion. My belief is that device perhaps more like an EpiPen was used to short device. Perhaps like a fat felt tip, which could be easily thrust against the skin and then a button could be pressed to release a small palate perhaps through needlepoint or a sharp end into the bloodstream. This will be much easier to deliver easier to make easier to transport across International borders and just generally more effective but as with all of these stories, we will never know the whole truth. All we know is that Markov did die he was assassinated the the poison was racing and it did happen dead. London the next foreign dissident to be killed on British soil was Alexander litvinenko in 2006. This Walker's had a couple of different routes over its lifetime. It's always been hard to connect. This temps house home office area on Halls Ferry Road to Broadway buildings and the old mi-sex and then on to some James's Park and the foreign office. This is one area where a virtual walk really comes into its own because we are not quite so strictly tied to geography however in recent years. I've wanted to focus a little bit on Westminster school and Sanctuary buildings. So we'll walk back towards the river along the riverbank to Westminster Cathedral where you will take a left into the Courtyard by Westminster school. Now, the reason for stopping here at Westminster is partly that it's in the shadow of old feed which is a grand sight for any tourist. But also it's the school where Kim philby and his father went. It's a private school and the choir boys here sing in the cathedral during big state wage. Thanks to very privileged position right in the heart of British Society both geographically and metaphorically and this helps to explain why it was the Americans who had to discover filthy. He was so much part of the establishment including his father. He was so well-liked charismatic and well-known that nobody least of all the British prime minister ever suspected him of being capable of spying for the Russians, but for whatever reason and we will certainly visit philby again in more detail in a future episode. He did turn to spying. He did believe that communism was the answer to fax them and he did lead others one way or another to early deaths including the rosenbergs in America Phillippe is also mentioned in my guy Burgess special episode, which has already been recorded song. We passed through the courtyard out the other side and take a left outside Westminster school and you will immediately see on your hard left Sanctuary buildings, which was the e Quarters of all swirled Mosley's British Union of fascists in the thirties mostly was known also as the husband of Diana mitford, which brings in the mitford who you may remember my maratho walk sister Nancy used to work at Heywood Hill, which was George Smiley his favorite Bookshop not too much to say about the British Union of fascists because they belong to a time period before or a second world war and perhaps during the second world war. Whereas we are focusing more in this work on the Cold War, but certainly the fight against the fascists the fight later on against Russia was the context in which the Cold War was fought and it's an important part of British International history in Western Europe, so I would like to come back to them in future, but for now take a look at the buildings. It's a really nice office. It's no longer used by any political party and we will walk back towards Broadway towards Saint James's Park Tube Station and artillery Mansions just to remind you that dog. Root and the points on this guided walk are available on Google Maps and the link is in the show notes. So after a short walk we arrived at artillery mansions and you can see through the archway that it's a couple of flats bit like dolphins Square similar time. I think but much smaller, but it's arranged around a central Courtyard and this is where George Blake lived there was also connection to gravel win and loss of ski but George Blake is the one that draws me here because I followed his life his history particularly through the play cell mates, which was revived recently at the Hampstead theatre cellmate shows the George Blake was perhaps the unluckiest of the Russian spies the Russian moles and some people say that's because he wasn't from the upper middle class upper class establishment. He was not British either. He was named back to the UK, but had worked with the UK within our interests in Korea and got a taste for military and Espionage work, but he was definitely from the wrong side of the tracks off. He is the only one of the Russian moles to have served a prison sentence and he was helped to escape by an Irish prisoner who hardly felt sorry for him and also liked danger himself. So George Blake was sprung out of wormwood scrubs prison and escaped to Moscow where he lived for the rest of his life came across Phil B and the others but none of the others went to prison interestingly for me Blake have served his prison sentence and become a free man afterwards if he could have lasted but instead because he fled to Russia. He was really not welcome back in the UK for the rest of his life and he died in Russia off the same way that Phil be dead, but I find it strange that somebody who wasn't sentenced to a jail sentence like philby and MacLean and Burgess could never come back. They were exiled effectively forever. Whereas a man who did get to jail. If only he could have seen that through he would have been a free man afterwards but perhaps the main reason he couldn't see that through is that he was given one of the longest jail sentences in British legal history. Which I've got written down here is 42 years, which was longer than it would be for killing. Somebody and George Blake absolutely did not kill anybody. Although they all say that don't they so George black artillery Mansions. Now this area of London used to be where Scotland Yard was. It used to be MI6. It's very close to the Palace of Westminster. Therefore. There are a lot of offices round here for the British government and interestingly very very recently in the last year or two. It's been announced that gchq had an office here besides and Ellis Hotel and near the old and my office building as well. It's also the previous home of the home office now the ministry of justice. So we always spend a lot of time in this area. You're definitely into the second half of the walk now, but we still have a lot of exciting exercise to see we have the Old mi-sex Saint James's Park to gchq and the foreign office more of that in part 3 Hong Kong
From the Archive - Melissa Harrison's All Among The Barley
"This is little atoms radio show about ideas and coach with me new denny sweet. Melissa Harrison tells us about her latest novel. All among the ball Melissa Harrison is the author of the novels clay an awesome time which was shortlisted for the cost award and long listed for the baileys women's prize and one work of nonfiction rain which was long listed for the win Roy Prize. She is a nature writer critic and columnist for The Times the Financial Times and the Guardian among others. Melissa's latest novel. Which we're GONNA talk about. Today is all among the Bali. Melissa welcome to let the latter much. How would you describe all among the Bali? It is a novel set in one thousand nine hundred eighty four in the between the wars and is set on an arable farm in east Anglia and it's a period when horsepower was giving way to mechanization and that's what I was I interested in as I was writing the book events co-op with me a little bit. And what have been very fallen horizon which was united referendum and and the trump presidency and quite unimaginable to me at the beginning suddenly became very real and. I realized that I was a book set in the Thirties. And that carried a certain kind of weight and meaning and I was going to have to make the book a lot bigger and I was going to be a lot braver and the book changed a great deal in the in the process of writing. And we'll talk about how to run up so ED mother who is your narrator. Tell us who shares. She's a fourteen year old girl. She's the youngest and her family and she is a little bit lost. She's somebody for whom everyone seems to have a plan for future except her. She's rendered without agency by the adults around her. As I think a lot of children all and she's very vulnerable. She's also vulnerable because she is unhappy but doesn't realize it in the way that I didn't realize I was unhappy at that age. Because what if you compare it to? So she's a bit of a lightning rod for all sorts of influences and the book is in part about her her discovering her own power. Perhaps getting it wrong but finding some kind of agency of her own and the book is set so it wasn't a rated by E D and we weren't necessarily talk about why but from the distance from like the future. Basically tell me why you chose to that. I wanted to write in the first person because I'd never done it before and I didn't think I could. So that was a bit of a challenge to myself. I discovered as I was writing it that the first draft. I think when I sent it to my agent. She couldn't really get into his head even though it was written without any of the interjections from her her later self so. I'd written it very closely from the perspective of fourteen. You're okay with that. Means that you miss out on any adult insights at all and you're really asking a lot of the reader to understand what's happening if you've gotten no ability to comment on the mistakes that that she's making the danger she's in so. I had to bring in a lot more of the older eighty to help the reader understand what was happening before we talk about all the characters. I want to talk about which farm and the village South because you're very much a writer play. Said the form is really another character in the book and so let's talk about well. First of all describe which farm for and then we can talk about inventing that play and I love that part of it actually the kind of world building part of it. I've always written about farming in some in some form even in my first book. Les which was set in in a city one the characters was a Polish emigrants East harbor. A pig farm and my second book with set in and around a dairy farming community. And this time I wanted to write about our farming and the place to go. If you want to write about that is East Anglia. Arable heartland is so great for Lakers and I was very interested in the writing of somebody could Adrian Bell. He wrote extensively about farming during that period and writers like Ronald Blyth. He's still with us today. At absolutely fantastic writer I can field and he still writes for the Church. Times most wonderful column about village life people like Aj Street who wrote for his glory. And I was really fascinated by this world. Bert still had the vestiges of folklore and kind of magical beliefs that helps wife century of the century and then disappeared very quickly and in two years. I mean partly as a result of the great shock of war and partly because of mechanization and the fact that agriculture suddenly had a great day. Whoa science in it. So we were understanding things very quickly about so productivity and health and things like that and it didn't it wasn't important anymore to gather the last sheaf and plough it back into the land in January because we knew what would make a fertile year and so a lot of richness lost quite quickly. It seems to me and I found that really fascinating more due to a family over over several generations. So that's why I wanted to set it in that world that the farm itself. I didn't want to write about a huge farm acres that nobody really knew. I wanted to write about a small farm where the people live on. It would know every single third so it sixty acres and it's a tenant farm so it's allowed is owned by the local landowner and during that period of the biggest states selling off land partly again as a result of the first World War and Agriculture Depression. And there was a lot of precarity which were saying again today. Not just in the farming sector so there was a huge depression going on and there were armies of homeless men just on the roads looking for work so again there were these parallels that seem to be getting stronger and stronger with today as I wrote. The book took him out all the that inhabit the farm. Who has we've talked about eighty? Who else is there on the phone? She lives with her parents and her brother Frank. Her sister. Mary has moved out a year ago. She's got married and had a baby. And when Eddie looks it varies life. It doesn't look that appealing. We we look back. We we talk a great deal about sunny in the nights writing world. There's quite an interesting some of the forms of male Labor which can be sort of lionised so things like using hand tools. There's a great mystique about how he would use the size. Nobody really talks about the word that women did say. Wash Day when you use a dollar a day and your hands would bleed. So I wanted to show that we've got a great deal of nostalgia the pulsed and we keep looking back at this golden age for a lot of people. Life was pure drudgery. Particular Women Charnel Chelsea was three roof. So he's looking at Marian thinking that's not really what I want and she's looking around here and there aren't that many other opportunities apart from teaching or nursing really the other people on the solemn all the to farmworkers stobl. He's an old very old man like a twig as a lot of these labours did end up. Acquired a young age actually and he lost his son in the warriors blown up by Shell which Eddie and have rather find quite fascinating. I think kids probably did at that time. It was. It was quite recent. You know this living memory. And there is John. Who's the horsemen he's referred to as the head horsemen? There's only him there but it's sort of throw back to the times when the bigger forms even a form of sixty acres would have more horses and you have a head horsemen and another horseman and Johnny. Somebody who probably the last generation to be initiated into the old rituals of magic which were really prevalent and almost like a secret society for many years and no one would talk about how you control horses. It was a great secret world. It's now thought the a lot of it was done with herbs and smells. But nobody's really sure still a lot of it still quite mysterious the fact that you could stop in its tracks and everyone else could try and ask it to move forward and it wouldn't the fact that you could. It was called charming the horses so John Still has enormous pride in his work but is still living by these old beliefs. That are listening. They hold and ED surrounded by that mixture of farming pragmatism from her father and magic from from John. He's a much kind of figure than vice apparent sexually and I wanted to talk about his gray sort of brooding presence. Stay ON THE FARM. And is he's an outsider as well. He's like come from assistance. And then there's all these tensions between George father and John as sort of bosses sort of mastermind. Work are politically because one of the went away to the war and did and in other ways that we won't go into because we're not gonNA give to too much of the plot away. Tell me about this sort of antagonism between him him and George with some of the source of male bravado. There's there's two men of a similar age on the farm team are excellent farmers in different ways so some of it sort of peacocking. I guess but also they come from very different political traditions and with John I wanted to shine a light on a different kind of a kind of a different kind of nostalgia about what it is to be to be English actually rather than British I think which is the kind of radical thread in English history and it is another way of being proud of our heritage that that perhaps is. I hope is a little bit healthier than some of the strengths. We've been seeing recently. That's something we should be very proud of our tradition of radicalism Thomas. More we told her son Eh. Let me some more about creating the world particularly the village. This village alborn. Which is the farm just outside of well. It's actually partly niece Li sets based on village. But I'm not going to tell you which one I went out to suffolk which is somewhere. I didn't really know at the time though. I've moved there now when I lived there to do some research and I went to different times of the summer so that I could see the crops at stages although I then later learned it all of the arable crops were different varieties in the past and grew in different ways and didn't let like they look now so that was interesting but the sort of general street plan is is based on a Suffolk village. And I drew maps as I was writing because I wanted to be consistent with where things were people left and right in north and south and so I basically initial map roughly on not village and then the maps have been beautifully drawn by the artist Neil gala and. That's one of the village in one of the farm itself and they were. It was really important to me right from the start to have those because I think it made the writing richer and it made me more confident in moving people around and it made the world more concrete and less abstract to me and I hope that's come across in the in the Finnish book. I WanNa talk more about the again. The time period that the book is set it is between the walls so obviously there is the effect the the first World War had on the workforce opening tons of Shane numbers times of the fact that women and indeed aiders mother has been horsewoman another. Ads Eighty eight has been has been horsewoman while while John was away fighting in the war but also this is the point where that feudal system of their tenant. Farmers is starting to fall apart as well. That's right it is breaking down. It seems to me that the war costs such a long shadow partly in the loss of skills there then he who didn't come back. Who were the only people in a valley which at that time was was your district. People didn't travel that much. It might be the only man who could Thatcher Rick. Well all he could store chaff safe from rats and suddenly all of that. School was lost very very quickly at that time. The implements that people used were were made for each individual and I remember finding out the Museum of English Rural Life. They've got tools there that were made for people that went to Warrenton come back and they are particular shapes or left handed or or whatever because they were made for individuals and I I found it completely utterly heartbreaking to see those tools and to read the stories of how they were found hanging up in bond's been touched since and I thought you know if that moves me so much at such a remove of years. What was that like in the immediate years after the war to be going to get your side from the bone and taking off a peg on the wall next to aside from someone you knew who was never coming back. Have you're listening to little atoms with any state? I'm talking to Melissa. Harrison took it about her latest novel all among the Bali. Melissa the book follows the fortunes of a farming. Yeah particularly farming. Yay At this point between the walls but also into this story and the catalyst for a lot of the things that happened in the book is the woman. Constance FITS ALLEN WHO turns up in the village who is she. Oh I don't want to give away. She comes from London and she. She has all sorts of new and old ideas. She wants to make a study of country ways. She wants to write down all the old traditions and recipes and folklore and preserve it but she has an agenda and it's not just to do with preserving the past she has new political beliefs which are slowly revealed. The book goes on I guess I was thinking a lot about some of the preservationists strands in nature writing. Which we still today which I feel in me as well you know I have the steep level of of wild places or as wild as they are in this country and and a long long to preserve them but there is a flip side to that. And there's a flip side to fetish izing rural places and fetish is in the past and fetish. Losing the connection between people place. And if you do that too much if you say that only certain people can understand a place or be connected with it that can lead you somewhere very dog and I think right now. We all have a duty to be very careful about how we think and talk about these things and so. The book was a part of meditation on that and an interrogation of the kind of the threat of nostalgia that I think we have in this country to do with rural places and the fact that we're replaces aware part of our identity resides. But if we if we're not careful with that what you end up with is a vision of England that is pre wintrust that is white that is middle class and that is exclusive and excluding but it's a vision that I I am. I am in love with. And that's hard to think about that hard to recognize myself. My grandmother was Anglo Indian. My mother was born and brought up in Pakistan. What's now Pakistan? And she was brought up on a diet of books about home which is so much she hadn't been which painted England in in a really luminous light and so the books she read us. Kids were these great classics. It was lot rights to candle foot. It was sided with Rosie Alison up leaves. A country child. Looks like that. And that's what I grew up in love with about the English countryside. But it's not it's not enough to simply accept that as the vision of what things should be like and where we should go not not anymore and to be fair you could read talk of the kid happily without knowing author basically Fascia. Yes and I did and I still love it. And that's really troubling to me. I mean I. It's probably why it's definitely in my top three books about nature and the countryside and and will continue to be but God Henry Williamson was so damaged by war. I mean he was A. He was probably a damaged individual before the war but he fought in the trenches and he came back a pacifist. He what he wanted to do was to prevent war ever happening again. He wants to go back to the eternal verities one of which was a connection to nature. He wanted brotherhood with Germany and his thinking which I think started out somewhere. Goods took him somewhere really really bad. And that's really worth thinking about now. I think while we talk about explicitly. What happens in the book? You've already we've already talked about the the RAV ideas. Let's talk about what some of the organizations that were around in the nineteen thirties. That rural people might have been attracted to Well I mean everyone knows about the after British Union of Fascists which isn't mentioned in the bookstore in fact the word. Fascism isn't mentioned in the book for good reason I think and that was headed up by mostly. Hey again is mentioned in the book. What is mentioned is an invented order which are based on the fact that there were dozens and dozens of little prototype fascist groups that sprang up in this country between the walls and some were crank outfits. Nothing Carpenter People. Couple of leaflets fizzled out. Some were bigger and more dangerous. A lot of them had people in common in one and then in another and it was quite incestuous. Some of them recruited suffragettes because I mean the BUF had the highest number of women in its top tiers of any other political party in that time and these were women who had had a taste of political campaigning and of agency and making a difference. And then they're looking around for ways to to remake the country and let's not forget the word. Fascism was not dirty word at the time. It wasn't didn't have any of the connotations that has now. It was a way to make things new after the enormous trimmer of war. Which I think we. We underestimate now but you know. It was based on dividing rather than uniting people and it was based on top down leadership. We've learned to question those things we've learned to question is things. Connie she turns out to the breath of fresh air tends wearing men's clothes. She's formerly a suffrage herself she shows EDA and to a certain extent. Eder A new way. Different way of being and she's not. It was really important to me that she's not a bad person at all. She shows eighty kindness in a way that nobody else does. Nobody else listens to her. Nobody else treats or with any acceptance Kearney says at one point has nobody ever told you. You're you're perfectly right exactly as you are. And it's a key moment for eighty. He's never been Tokyo alright by anyone. Connie isn't an Avatar. She's not she's not a a sort of post a woman for set of beliefs. She's she's a person he has good and bad about her. As wieldy. You mentioned the modern resonances. The politics of of the story has also. Of course you know in this world. The book has a m an uncomfortable romance inverted commerce between them e D and local land. Tell me about sort of writing back story now. Yeah that was the other thing that really caught up with me as the book was going along and I really felt like the real world was was happening. All around me At least the things which I've been incubating privately with suddenly Just a horrible way in the real world yes. I drew on personal experience for that scene and it was hard to write. I think that a lot of women will recognize some of the feelings in it. I hope they will not hold. They've had that experience. But I hope that those that have find some kind of reflection in a way. That's helpful to them. It was quite Arctic for me to write. I think the key thing for me was that Alf that the local lad is a nice boy. He's not he's not a villain he's not a body. I mean he is but he's not seeing that way you know he's funny and charming and and everybody likes him and I hope that until the point at which the difficult things happen men reading it might might like human identify with him because the point is that it's not just bad men who do bad things and just one more thing for me to read a bit that okay. If you word we've already mentioned I said you're a writer place and your your previous novel was very strongly around around the place and you mentioned the couple of writers at the beginning that we're influences but I wanted to talk about. Basically what are? The writers are an influence on this novel in particular and on this novel I was really buried in the Nineteen Thirties. Writers from that period. Dorothy Hartley I think is wonderful. She's some people have said she must be a model for Connie. I mean she isn't because she she was politics. Were completely different but the idea of these sorts of tall eccentric women biking around the countryside sleeping on the hedges and Recording People's recipes. You know there are quite a few of them about and I love the idea you know and there are several. She seems to be having a bit of a renaissance at the moment. But more generally think Alyssa's orders is our greatest living writer of any Chandra. She's a devon poet and she is. She does things with words. That just aren't possible. I mean they are not. It was sometime name midnight when I woke with a sense of something vast and obscure having fallen into place. I'd slept enough. I knew straight away and I also knew that I must go to the horse pond. It seemed in that moment very simple and I felt relieved for are not known what to do but now I understood that each thing would become clear when I came to it and that all I had to do was trust. I got up and pulled a Cardigan over. My nightdress crept down the creaking stairs and put on my boots. The Yard was quiet. Cobbles the barn and Dung Heap Lit by full moon? The Parish Lampton? Grandfather sometimes called her. Grandma at her name was phoebe. I was glad if now on each stable door hung holed stone on a loop of wire and a rusty iron nail and now I took one down and gently ease the nail from the wood hoping that the horses wouldn't startling Waco Horseman John. Then I took the nail raise my nightdress and traced a witch mark gently with the point of it on my belly is Pale find skin. Haji No blood for. I didn't need it to last more than an hour to one of the horses. Blue and stamped ease the old nail back into the word making my heart. Thump and sweat pre-columbian my arms that above the stable. John did not stir Ernie a couple of the farm cats across the moonlit yard and walk into the darkness under the Elms Fatherhood sides the margins of green lease and late in the afternoon before she went to sit with double mother achieved and stick to the corn headcount in the moonlight. It looked a little like the painting. Miss Cartridge shown us at school and I wondered if perhaps she had meant it as a sign for me when I was only now beginning to understand. There's a deep significance to everything I saw around me now. The black trees the moon feels and it was almost overwhelming. I knew I must learn to decipher. Its messages who everything might be lost. Father would have had to walk three standing wheat to cut around the horse pond so I looked to his line and followed it. The crop around me was full of little movements and I imagined the harvest mice at hairs that would doubtless watching me walk through its tall stalks and wondering why. I'd come ahead lay the black clump of orders. The huddled around the water. The inky night sky strewn with bright stars above and beyond the edge of the trees. I called softly for Edmund my Corn Creek and he came immediately appearing quietly at my feet. I picked him up and cradled him against my chest for a moment and I couldn't help tears from starting to my eyes because I knew by his attendance on me there that everything is suspected was all true. All true I felt like a child all of a sudden I felt so small and desolate which was strange as surely I should have felt it my most powerful then a press my wet face into the bird soft leathers and felt his heart beating in my palm and I made myself think of the farm and of mother and grandma of all that I loved and all that might yet be lost from ready now Edmund whispered at last and settling down in the stubble where he roused his feathers briefly began to preen and then I took Francs Cardigan folded it up neatly and ducked under the orders to the weeds and flag assist the margin of the pond. Water was chill at first but by the time it was around my thighs. It felt blood warm. The pond might have been shady but the weather had been hot for weeks with each step. My unleased boots sunk into the depth less mud beneath me an last. I flung out my arms balance water. Arcane from them so that I wouldn't fall unexpected ducks or more hens explode from the margins as they would have had gone into the pond by the house but it seemed that no welfare made this ponder home. When the dark water was up my shoulders I stopped and pushed my billing night. Just down into the water and waited for the ripples to subside. I felt so clean all of a sudden cleaner than I had since the fate and it was worth it just for that I felt my breathing. Slow with the fading ripples. Let my awareness of the cornfield around me and the Night Sky. Return at last. I breathed out all the air I could from. My lungs took to tiptoeing steps forward. Close my eyes and let go army took it to Melissa Harrison. We've talked about her new novel all among the Bali which is out like this week from Bloomsbury. Melissa thank you so much for coming in and took it about it. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. This episode of little atoms was produced and presented by me Nail Denny Bend was first broadcast on residents four point four Latin to supporting by eight nine hundred and the puck by find his. And if you like the show please do leave. You can find old interviews new journalism it on our website. Tom Com thanks for listening.
Agent Jack, the spy who hunted Nazi sympathizers in wartime London
"How do you take down criminal network hidden in the shadows? I tell him that. I know that they're the ones who are running the largest child abuse website on the dark net the journalists working to expose the darkest corners of the Internet. That's your playroom for that's your baby's clothes. That's my house. The police ace who hunt down online predators. The environment. They're using no we didn't we didn't make it. They made it hunting. MOORHEAD subscribe wherever you get at your podcasts. This is a CBC DC podcast. Hi I'm Laura Lynch this podcast from the December third edition of the current can't remember. The enemy has highly trained agents. They may be in any walk of life. Rosa's upkeep as Baba's politicians Asians people who the enemy bribed blackmail even people who admire Nazism so much that they're ready to betray their own country for it. Watch out for these people wartime some unsettling advice from a nineteen forty two British propaganda film called the next of kin. The movie told the stories of German spies in the the United Kingdom and their unsuspecting collaborators. And while movie goers were watching the fictional spy thriller Eric Roberts was busily trying to identify the men and women in in the UK who were secretly rooting for and secretly trying to help Germany invade Britain. His incredible story is told by Robert Hutton. In his new book agent Jack. The true story of my five secret Nazi Hunter Robert Hutton is also Bloomberg's UK political correspondent. and He's in our London studio. Hello Oh hello there can you take into the world of Eric Roberts. During the beginning of World War Two to talk about what was going on in England so Britain at the start of World War. Two thinks it's going to be fighting. One sort of Woah. Thinks it's going to be defending France. Thinks it's going to see another wool. Rather like the first one maybe in some ways and very rapidly all of that. Collapses the British Expeditionary Force which has been sent to defend Belgium finds it. It's been outflanked flanked in France and has to retreat hastily to dunkirk on the coast by the middle of nineteen. Forty Britain is finding itself entirely. Holly without had is with a huge hostile force just on the other side of the channel getting ready to invade and in the midst of all this is a men named Eric Roberts. How did he get involved in political spying? Eric Roberts in nineteen forty has sort of a public life and and the private life and his public life is that he's a Clark at the Westminster Bank. He's married with two sons living in EPSOM Suburb just south of London and his life looks very happy very a very dull but he has a secret life which is that he is em. I five The British security services man inside British fascism and he has been a member of the BUF. The the British Union of Fascists on behalf of am I five since one thousand nine hundred eighty four. So he's involved in the spying movement after having this be rather dull life working in the bank. What made him such a good spy so he got into it actually because he had been a teenage fascist himself and when he first To London as a teenager in the mid nineteen twenty s he's he's drawn to To to sort of the predescessor movement called the British fishy St and he joins Latte and he's recruited as a spy for the British for safety and very rapidly loses interest interest in fascism but becomes quite interested in spying. What makes him so good at it is he? Has This incredibly underage equality. which which is? He's really likable. And that doesn't sound like very much. But he's a great deal of of personal charm and because people like him they trust him and they want to trust him and as you start to go into his career you can see again and again. The people who shouldn't have trusted him do trust him and they sell him to themselves. If that makes sense so something or other will happen and that should would have been the clue that you can't trust Eric. Robots and instead they will say Oh we can't pin it must have been something else and so even as as wars war is breaking out and it's becoming quite a risky thing to be a fascist in Britain robots is the one that people are taking aside it within the fascist movement and saying local. Chevy really ought to keep your head down here because the government's going to come. Boris is is that how he gained the confidence of the would-be Nazi collaborators. Just with that sort of understated nice guy a pro just by being likeable. I mean it's as we think about James Bond and all sorts of things like this. I'd actually that she. There is a there is a story to Eric when you see pictures of him. Now he's as they tend to be over a chubby balding man but actually in in his prime crime in He's he's in his early thirties when the war breaks out. He's a tool man. He's quite athletic. He's a karate black belt so he did have that That side to him but but actually just being the kind of person the people wanted to like and you can see an account so people who who met him and I didn't realize who he was talking about him afterwards They just they just say how how much they liked him. How did he get the alias of the nom-de-guerre of Agent Agent Jack so he joins them? I fi- formerly in nineteen forty. And at first he's being sent on as it were little short term missions sounds way he will go and try and penetrate a fascist cell that exists somewhere but as the war goes on M. I.. I finally got this this big problem which it believes sincerely. The reason that Germany was able to advance fast was because of this network. A fifth columnists people behind the lines. who were guiding the German paratroopers in Hooah cutting supply lines? And that's that's again. That's believable way up. You can see it in Cabinet Manoj. It's not questioned the film's existed and that it's what you heard in that clip and so Emma fives job is to find the fifth calm and by the end of nineteen forty one. It's which concluded that in fact there was no fifth column in Britain but what it keeps finding on and what robots keeps finding people people who would like to be fifth columnists so British people who would dearly like to join this this underground network but com okay. Yeah had to get in touch with it. At the end of one of the men the robots is working for Victor Rothschild. I the Rothschild Rothschild's has has an idea he says. Look if if the fifth column doesn't exist but if lots of people still want to be an inch why don't we set it top and his plan is and this is what they do to set up. Eric as the stoppers man in London and Eric Who is in contact with various Ceuta fringe? Fascist groups will reveal to one of them that he is not in fact just another fascist fellow traveller. He is in fact. ACT THE GESTAPO's stay behind man in London and it's his job to identify people who are willing to help the invasion. And how enthusiastic was he about about taking this this assignment on what. He seems to have really enjoyed his work. Actually I mean. He didn't much like the people who came into contact with but he he for him. What mattered he said was success as an operator? He's a craftsman and having been frankly frankly not very successful bank Clark. He wasn't very interested in banking banking was not very interested in him and having been held back by the kind kind of snobbery the that I mean that we we still have a class system in Britain but we really had one then and so it's impossible for a allowed Latte from Colin will which is where he came from without connections to advance beyond a certain level in in banking in spying. He finds something where it doesn't don't really matter who is father was. He's able to succeed because he's good at it so I actually I get impression. He was quite enthusiastic about danger was was he in though Being exposed so all through the world I mean he said at one point he said after which is near as damn it to exposure at various points. It's he didn't right about it. A huge amount. In his reports there are moments when he's doing this where somebody challenges him. Ah So he said around a third of the time the people he the people in this in this fifth column he set up and they called it the fifth column because that was what it was around a third of the time the fifth call will convince he was name I finally man and then I as I say because of his charm they tended CEO. No no no. He can't be they had killers is among them. I decided the people who was certainly willing to incapable of it. Particularly the woman he was working with A woman called Morita Perr ago. He was absolutely no doubt that Ah that she if she had become convinced that he was a spy that she would have put poison in his coffee. Oh cut his throat. All of these people had. They decided that he was a British agent would have realized that he was the person who could give the evidence against him. That would have killed them and all of them had done more than enough to be hanged and some of them were really scary people. What was the most serious case that that Roberts worked on I think the most successful spy that he recruited was a man called Hans Cohort who was Australian born but a naturalized Britain And Co.. Oh how the start of the war finds himself in a difficult position because he'd spent the summer In Australia going back to Australia with his wife and young child world The summer of nineteen thirty nine and then he comes back from the holiday early to go back to work and then war breaks out and his wife and son are in Austria and he's in Britain and he decides that the loyal thing for him to do is to try to serve the Nazi cause and he is an incredibly effective spy. He hands over to Eric details of the Mosquito Obama pretty much as as as is the most senior people in the government getting these details in a flat in north London Co handing them over to Eric Roberts thinking thinking that he's handing it Germany. There is a case to be made under the case. I'm making the book. The Hans Cohort is most effective spy. That Germany had in Britain. What did happen to the other? would be spies and saboteurs Eric Roberts uncovered so when Rothschild Defense conceived of this operation. It was just sort of trial balloon. And they thought well we'll put we'll put robots out there and we'll see what he finds and they had thought that he might find a few a AH fascist sympathizers and instead he finds a flood of them am I five is punished by the success of their own operation and they sort of they don't they. There's is a feeling that Oh my goodness we turned over this stone to see what was underneath it and new thought things underneath and the last thing we want to do is turn over anymore rocks because we sort of don't really want to. I know how many people are all with the fascist sympathies in Britain and although that sounds slightly to embrace it m I five is playing a bit of a double the game internally here. It hasn't told the Home Office which is supervising department. What it is that? It's doing. It knows that if a Home Office finds out about what Eric is doing the Home Office will tell it to stop so they. They sort of reach a compromise with themselves. A they keep eric going. But they don't expand the operation a now that's fine during the wall but as you get to nineteen forty-five there's a problem. You've got tons of evidence and they've got transcripts. Transcripts are still that in which people discuss way in their own towns. The lift offer should bomb that. There's a lot of talking about targets people who draw maps to ah to the the the show. The roots that troops should follow through that towns around the defenses. So you've got the evidence as I say to prosecute and hang or imprison dozens of rich people. But you've got a problem. which is it in the first place? You haven't told the Home Office what you're doing. And we can't prosecute without at the Home Office finding out and second in a way by the end of the war. Fascism is is a suit of wholly owned subsidiary of their the reason to beat of it the robots is reporting on and in fact one of the other departments five which is supposed to be in charge of monitoring fascism ashes which at the start of the war is very hostile. throb is doing this. At the end of the war we saying basically all of the intelligence. We're getting we getting from him. Please keep him going so so they decided to just slightly wind the operation down but to keep it going. Keep things in the Pie. You don't know in Nineteen forty-five who you'll next enemy is going to be and so Maria Paragon enhance cohort. Stay on the AM. I five books continuing to report. And it's not clear who they think they're reporting adding to in Germany in nineteen forty six nine hundred forty seven but some form of continuity Nazi organization and robots carries on As the their agent and in the most bizarre moment tien covered this ceremony at the start of Nineteen forty-six six wherever it rubs presents Morita Paragon Hans Co Hounds with German medals and says obviously the war has not turned turned out the way that We had hoped but The Third Reich. Thanks you feel service and here are medals and do please as continue to report now. I am fairly certain that those all the final Nazi medals awarded in World War. Two and they. They were awarded to two British people that the Nazi government had never heard of by a British spy. WHO was working king? Fool Victor Rothschild. Who was Britain's leading Ju what stories After the war Eric Roberts some sort of struggles a bit. He goes to Australia. The mission there that does not go to well. He's back in London trying to figure out what to do next. Eventually he moves to Canada. He moves to salt. Spring Island The Gulf islands islands of British Columbia. And you tell this incredible story of an officer traveling to salt spring to speak with Eric. Roberts what was that about off to the war you you gotta remember the end of the war. Mo Five is on a high. They have absolutely proved themselves. They've run this operation. They've run double cross. They dealt with a fascist home him they say the Germans a broad. It's been brilliant. And then they start to realize that something is wrong and over the next decade. They discover that in fact they too were compromised. and that the Soviets had agents right the heart of British intelligence in Vanden mix and that prompts this this sort of process of Investigation Gatien of of going backwards and forwards trying to trying to find out what happened and in the late nineteen sixties Somebody comes to see the Eric on salt spring because they won't his recollections and when they arrive Eric knew they were coming. He hands the man an MBA light. I need is a piece of paper with a name on it. which is the name of the man that he believes betrayed? Emma I five and the name on that piece of paper was Anthony Blunt. Robots had had during the wall become convinced that blunt was a German spy and the MO five man. WHO's come to see him is able to reveal what was then known publicly? which is the blunt had by that point who already confessed to having been a Soviet spy during the war? That's testament to Eric Roberts perception substance perception and abilities. Now we know the real name of agent Jack for decades. We didn't. I wonder what you think. We should remember about Eric. Roberts the man well I think what he will. He wanted to be thought of as somebody who was good at his job and he writes after after he's had this late sixties interview. He writes that he has a little bit of a crisis. He falls very ill and he writes this long letter to to his to a former colleague back in which he talks about his his career in spying. It's a fascinating document and at the end of it. He says what mattered to to him was what he called success in the cold. I think he wanted to be thought of as good at his job and he was I I was personally enormously happened that whereas a lot of people who who worked for longtime undercover afterwards couldn't really cope with with real life life and And became alcoholics or they had various crises. Eric who is undercover for as long as anyone he he has this amazingly happy home life so far as I can tell and talking to talking to the family members who knew him was just how how findlay they remember him so I I think we should remember him as a has a happy man Robert Robert Hutton. I WanNa thank you my absolute pleasure. Robert Hutton's new book. His agent Jack. The true story of five secret Nazi Hunter and he was in our London in England studio on Alafaya host of ideas join me on a deep dive into contemporary thought and intellectual history at ideas. We explore everything from the roots of totalitarianism to the evolution of Denim. No topic is off limits. Each episode cracks soaping a concept to see how it's played out over place and time and shows why it still matters today. Subscribe to ideas on the CBC. Listen APP or wherever you catcher podcasts. Well as you heard Eric Roberts Aka agent. Jack came to Canada to live during the Cold War. Four and while many families have members. Who kept secrets the Roberts family had to do and they're all here with me in our Toronto Studio hello to you all? Hello this before we start. Let's go around the table and have you all introduce yourselves. Max and you are on so and and I'm Rosemarie Max's wife Okay and I'm Marilyn so eric's youngest granddaughter and I'm Roseanne his oldest oldest granddaughter. We are so lucky to have all of you here Maryland. I'm GonNa Start with you. What did you think about the book? It was incredible to find out what Granpa Eric had accomplished rushed. And yeah so it was fantastic. I'm so thankful. How much did you learn from reading the book? I'm still learning I'm still it. It's it's it's a lot to take in so a lot. Yes I did not know. I know what he did during the war so we were unaware of that of what he did. Max He was your dad. What what do you remember about your father growing? Yep well I remember some any things One of the things I remember is that He would be gone for days and suddenly show up and We you know he he and mom would then go out every night. I walked to the pub and It was It was an interesting experience but he was Very good with us kids when you saw him yes when we saw him but he would be gone and I have two people that he was a conscientious objector working on a farm. Where did you figure out that he actually was a spy for? Am I five. Well A- As I as I got into my teens or early teens I realized that that's what he was but before that none of us knew we would release. We were told old. I knew my mom knew but We weren't we weren't we. We just had to say that he was a conscientious objector working on a farm. And what was your reaction when you found out that he was indeed a spy. It just just overwhelmed me really really. I can't explain Elena but it just Just turn my whole life for Rome Rosemary. Wanted to turn back to you. How did your family discuss the secret? That your father in law had been an important spy in British intelligence Well I maxed in challenge really until a few years after we were married. Oh He's a good secret keeper to do that and no I can understand why but tab we went out every summer for two weeks and spent with them and and and that but even then like in as me more than anything is the fact that of all the friends he had an all the people around him he never never he never told anyone know the only thing he said to me one time when he was in one of his better episodes was rosie because he used to coming. I told them that he he was a spy and they wouldn't listen to me. which is where Anthony Blunt? That's how he was talking about August. It is yes. I thought that was the only thing and even then I thought Whoa and then I threw past actional so he told me a little bit you. Nobody ready set. Don't don't pass it around town. Anybody and I never dion ritual my parents or my sister anyone anymore. The kids well they were so oh little at the time you know. Maryland wasn't born yet in Roseanne was like five. So Rosanna. How much did you know? How much did I know or Auger grandfather story? Well I think we always knew he was a spy but the stories that we'd heard was more the Cold War but we would we would get together as cousins and whisper in the night at different stories other. That's it's not a lie we would. I remember lined up in sleeping bags in. Well I heard this and I heard that and cinch that does this what GRANDPA did disaster So we knew but we also knew not to say anything and I remember every now and then even even now I get a little shaky and clammy when I talk about it because it's a secret it's something we're we're not to tell that story about this Nazi sympathizer falling in in love with him. What did you think of that? Well so we all talked about this earlier and none of it really. Didn't we really didn't make much shove it. In fact Maryland said she forgot And I think it's because Robert came and stayed with mom and dad for a few days and he sat down with us and he told us the entire story and one of the things he said is he kept looking for dirt. He wanted to find the scandal and he wanted to find something that had happened and of course he's writing a novel. Of course he wants to he wants to he wants to. He wants to find something but he couldn't so the grandfather was just to nice and decent so the fact that this woman was in love with him it didn't surprise us because he really was charming and and fun and handsome and we didn't think anything came of it because there was no scandal. That was really. My favorite part of the book was the fact that out of all of this he was a decent human being. He was a good guy so much better than James Bond the matter that he wasn't Jay Grossman wondering what the most surprising thing is that you learn from reading the book. I don't just that he could do. Did you know it's just unbelievable to to me. I'm wondering answer questions that you had about the family of the man you married. His Max is just so much coach like his father. I just notice it more and more all the time in what sense just in his humor and Komo mostly issue secrecy. I hope all pretty good at keeping the book committee Max. What about you? Is there anything in the book that you read that that you didn't know about before not really no no I knew. Virtually all the things but basically won't but I did and Barbas told to do was wipe it out in other words. Don't don't you know it was very difficult. Because I had to tell as I told you earlier I have to tell people. My that was a conscientious objector. And it's a you know to this day. I find that I still think about how stressful it was because all the kids would see your dad's not not in the army the navy. Your Dad's a coward. That's what they said to you about him. Look now you must be so proud of him. Oh I am always proud of him. I mean I knew I knew when I was in her teens that that he was a spy. But I want to say I knew I didn't really. He didn't say that but I knew exactly what he was but I couldn't tell anybody. Were you ever able to tell him how proud so you were. Oh yeah and my mom too. That's fantastic I. I just have one more question for all of you. Who Do you want not to play him in a movie? All say great again kind of percent. Okay that's the older one you know you want into play the dashing young man. I can't get over Gregory Peck. I said you in McGregor but you in cumberbatch okay. Gregory Peck wasn't not immediately handsome. But when you took a second look like Oh boy you're A. He is a handsome man but he seemed humble and he was tall. Dark moral rectitude. Feel like so. It's very hard to I thought about the Salat and I I just start. We'll now. Everybody knows his story. And I want to thank all of you for coming in and you so much. Thank you you Max. Roberts is the son of the late five spy Eric Roberts. Rosemary is Eric's daughter-in-law and Roseanne and Maryland are his granddaughters. And they join me in our Toronto Studio for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.
Part One: Mosley: The British Hitler Who Inspired the Christchurch Shooter
"You have a one in two chance of having prediabetes or diabetes. We can take steps right now to beat the odds. It's baritone day Thurston. And on this episode of spit. I sit down with Tim McGraw Tracey Brown and Julia who to get the scoop on what we can do right now to live healthier lives. The things that you can concrete. We do every day that can help you move forward with your health creates a ripple effect and the rest of your lives. Spit is an iheartradio podcast with twenty three. And me. Listen to the latest episode in the iheartradio app or wherever you get your favorite shows. Boylan my crabs. I'm Robert Evans. And this is once again behind the bastard the show where we tell you everything to don't know about the very worst people and all history as you guys feel about that intro. Good did my favorite. Thank you boil on my crowd Boylan, Mike crafts that. A thing. We always stay everywhere. My new teacher. I like it more than the last time. Whatever it was. That was the what's itching my rashes rough. Rough one's good this. This is palatable it belongs on not just a normal shirt. But exclusively on sleeveless shirts. Yes. Yes. That's just what crabs. Yeah. Me think. Art works going to be key. But this is happening as you listening have probably guessed by now, my guests for today's episode are Katie and Cody Katie Johnston in Cody Johnson came stole sorry of these some news network. How are you all doing today? Honestly high. Hey. You doing? Okay. Yeah. I'm doing honestly, your high or. Say hello. But I see how that would sound like I was saying it does sound you're doing high. Right. I mean, we're in the city of Los Angeles where conservatively ninety percent of the city is high at any given to one hundred percent you walk around. And there are two predominant smells one is marijuana and the other a skunk. At least in my neighborhood. It's one of the other and they're similar. They are similar. They are similar because we have bad drivers, partly because of all the marijuana. Today. We are talking about a fellow named Oswald. Moseley you'll know you'll know about Oswald Moseley asked me again in an hour. Y'all's about two. So let's tear into this the this which of knowledge, let's eat, this crab. Let's eat this crab. That's crack this crab open fish out. It's delicious butter drenched. Meet cover our table in our shirt in crab GU I got my on got my bib on in. I I always rip the bid at some point. Throw out the shirt gets all gets. Yeah. You're having a real good crab feast, you know, keep those clothing, I just walk naked out of the crab restaurant. Just burn my shirt in their in their furnace. Google the next crab restaurant. You can find you can only go do it again. That's the key with good credit. You get you get one shot you better. Do it. Right y'all who is a glorious. It's a great four and a half hours. All right. Let's talk about this fascist for slightly shorter than you would spend at a crapper much shorter. Okay. Any we'll we'll do a four part episode. That's just me at a crab restaurant, and that will be the bastard. So you'll be I am the worst version when I'm eating crab. Boy, nobody nobody needs any of that. All right, sir. Oswald earned Moseley was born on the sixteenth of November eighteen ninety six. He was the oldest of three children. His family was one of those walkie ass noble families that the British still have for some reason. So at birth Oswald, mostly became the sixth. Baronet of F Dale hall Staffordshire his mother mod gave birth without the benefit of her husband walled these presence because he was quote, a rake gambler and a heavy drinker, nevertheless, wall de brag to anyone who would hear about the birth of his heir Maud wrote in her diary on the day of oswald's, birth thankful. It's a boy. Oswal went by Tommy as a little kid. He was ill often. And as you might have guessed by all the names and titles. He grew up. Very wealthy Omni. Tommy for Oswald. Everything the British do is wrong. So I'm gonna say something right now right here, I've gotten a lot of shit on the Twitter on the twats the tweets for my mispronunciation of of a British town names and city names, and I feel like with all of the evil that colonialism bid the one way we can make it right? Is by forever mispronouncing. The names of small towns in the United Kingdom. I couldn't agree which would up on. Exactly. So that's that's just how it's going to be this episode. I always call London Landin Landin. Landon. It sounds like a sleazy ex-boyfriend and not like the world for two hundred years fucking land. Oswald's family was so rich that they had an incest manner app hall their wealth had been built up in the sixteenth century by his ancestor, nNcholas Moseley who the book black shirt describes as quote, one of the swindling sheep farmers who at the time were expropriating, the common lands of the English people. So that's where his family money comes from kneeling common lands from sheep. Farmers. Okay. Adds up. Way broken steals from people to seems like that's the only way. I Robin Hood reverse Robin Hood sheriff of nodding the more more successful than more socially accepted. Yeah. 'cause you know, Robin Hood died in a ditch somewhere in the sheriff of Nottingham's like descendants. Now, we're like buying Brexit. Moseley's? Great grandfather, sir Oswald later, leased out their property in Manchester for a huge sum of money for reasons which are unclear to me due to my lack of knowledge of nineteenth century, British leasing laws the Moseleys wound up in a long running dispute with the Jewish businessmen of Manchester. According to the book black shirt quote in the eighteen eighties. Although Jews played only a minor role in money lending, Walter Tomlinson. A local journalist noted that the identification of Jews with extortionate or Serie was extensively believed in Moseley's. Grandfather was at the forefront of the campaign against Jewish emancipation. So his Granddad was one of the big. I don't want us vote in guys right out of the gear. Anyway, here's what they thought. Jeez. Okay. Yeah. Four paragraphs it. So at a screen dad thought about the Jews surprise it took longer than ice, Cody. Eddie oswald's grandfather will end up being his chief male influence as a boy his dad e is generally described as a piece of shit Oswald later described his father as a hard writing hard-drinking hard living, Tori squire much given to expletives. He will be the most likeable person we talk about on one memorable. Occasion. Oswald's father drunkenly drew his pistol and started shooting out electric lights in Piccadilly square. Again, seems like a guy would have gotten along with. He also cheated on his wife constantly, which is not cool, and she left. Her husband went Oswald was quite young. And he's doing this. Because you know, he's originally can get away with it too. Yeah. Yeah. What you do shoot out light? I'm down for that. That sounds like a great out her though, that's a, you know back then our move leave their husbands on often. Yeah. Good for her. Mostly would later describe his childhood with his mom and grandfather on the family estate as I Dillon. The property was a self contained economy as English estates were in this period of time. There were farmers and servants who all work to serve the rich people in all bought and sold from each other. It was essentially a we independent nation Moseley later wrote that he and his family had quote little need to go outside the closed and charmed circle. And we children never did our time was divided between farms gardens and carpenter shops where the bearded Pritchard presided over a core of experts who kept all things going as their forebears had done for generations. We were very close to nature. This is fascinating. Yeah. Because I know like a little bit about him. Yeah. What we're gonna be talking about. And like, yeah. All right. You grow up like that you up in that insular kind of. Yeah. Where you're a community. Like, you're the center of attention. And you look at it look. Oh, wow. Like, it's a very small number of people, and they all work together, and it works great. And like, I'm happy, and there's no social mobility whatsoever. I should do that everywhere. Should be the whole world. How that's yeah. I I I have to say I think that having an army of servants who exist only to serve your family is maybe not close to nature. Let's say you're correct on that nature does depend on how you defined nature natural. But yeah, chairman is natural. I'm sure you're wins being catered to in a beautiful environment. Does sound I LA. Natural hills natural up that way without any other outside influences or awareness of what the world actually is. Yes, now, young Moseley did not seem to reflect it all upon the fact that this I'd Ilic situation relied entirely upon an incredibly strict social hierarchy with no mobility whatsoever. Since Oswald grew up without the benefit of his father, his beliefs about masculinity were largely formed by a mix of British pop culture at the time, and his grandfather's example, the book black shirt describes this. Well, quote, he thus idealized the male role. Inappropriate. Those components of masculinity feared would otherwise be used against him. It was tradition that family quarrels should be aired publicly in each father challenged his son to a boxing match in front of a simple servants bucks. Vincent and hunting. We're part of an aggressive upbringing in which being the winner was all important. The combination of this, hyper masculinity, which was a defense against feelings of dependence and the lack of boundaries which gave little consideration to others feelings ensured that Moseley was always into much of a hurry. I rush towards life with arms outstretched to embrace every very chantant of. Glittering wonderful world a life. Rush to be consummated was Moseley's writing at the in their life isn't meant to be rushed. Man. That's not I have to say though, father-son boxing matches or a good idea. Is this like trial by combat? Just like. Yeah. You you disagree with what your dad says? You gotta fight him fight. You're dead. Yeah. You're you're wrong until you're telling. Yeah. That's the way the world until you're tall enough to be right? You tough enough to fight. You're dead win. Are you telling them, you're right? You're right now. As a young man Oswald, attended west downs school in Winchester college. He loved fencing which we will not mock him for because so do I by the time. He was fourteen. I don't need. I don't need that laughter. Sophie. A fairy action. By the time. He was fourteen. He was already six foot to his adult height. Moseley was described by his contemporaries as extremely good looking which caused him some issues at westbound school Moseley described public school life as with boredom which was quote, only relieved by learning and homosexuality. Neither of which he was good at just sort of British private school life. Let a young kids fucking each other. Sure. Now what you do. But he wasn't very good at it. He was not. He was not he was not inclined to home. I don't think. So. Okay. So that's what he was saying. Okay. Just wasn't ended. It was just his way of saying like, no, thank you. Yeah. He wasn't very good at this. I'm not good at book learning or fucking fellow students. These are not my talents. I tried. I studied hard. I wasn't very good at it. I just wasn't very good at sorry. Really studied. Anti semitism was a travel. Was a prevalent part of his waltz childhood. Although the evidence suggests this was not much more of a factor in his young life than it would have been in the life of any of his peers during World War Two when he was interrogated by the advisory committee on internment Moseley told his interviewers that his first experiences with anti semitism had come quote in my youth where most of one's friends and relations would not have Jews in their houses. He described this sort of anti semitism as quote old English growth, and quote, a whimsical brutality that was much kinder than Germany anti-semitist. Aw. Oh, that's rough. Whimsical brutality. Don't go together. They really do like that whimsically beat the Jewish men in town with sticks. When they come out at night. Just the same old. You just like find another way to say it. Yeah, we'll spend like this. What the Nazis doing is? Okay. But when I chucked a brick through that synagogue window. It was with a smile in my heart. I was it was whimsey. So. I tried to light that Torah on fire the same way Winnie the Pooh would've. Like. Arming lease charmingly, so British. We're british. All right. I'm from strategist reference for accents much more palatable valuable that was not a British accent. We should not try today. We're gonna we're gonna just we're just gonna. That's the accents of pressured. The guy who ran the. Specific part of. Yeah. In January of nineteen fourteen Oswald Moseley entered the Royal Military college of Sanders. It was a violent place in cadets were taught quote impeccably on parade and hooliganism off duty, which is something about military life. That has not changed free. Time was spent in London starting fights and flirting with girls, which is something else about military life. That has not changed Moseley admitted that the fighting was seen as much more important than the flirting. He was apparently unpopular and got kicked out due to a violent incident. Black shirt describes this way. Quote, order cadets decided that an arrogant Moseley needed to be taken down a peg or two and went to his room to punish him for his insolence. John masters in bugle and tiger created the legend that Moseley detested by his brother officer cadets was thrown out of a window, in fact in seeking recruits for retaliatory action. He slipped on a ledge in fell slightly, injuring a leg. Skirmishing continued all weakened as a result of which fifteen cadets, including Moseley were packed off to reflect on their ill behavior, his friend, Robert Bruce, Lockhart believe Moseley bore grudge against society because of this incident. So. So he was unlikable people didn't like them people didn't like him when he tried to like get involved in the fighting at school. He fell off a window. Yeah. Yeah. So he says he's really fooling myself. And yeah. Hit you know, Jews. Yeah. Definitely hated you. Although probably not more than anybody else. Academy at Sanders that is like one of those things about European history. Is that pretty much everybody was pretty anti semitic. Or the holocaust happened in most people were like, oh, maybe we should maybe should peel back on that a little bit. Oh boy. Oh, boy to know the path led to. Yeah. It's interesting to just like this. So many stories involve like, oh, yeah. Rich, and like really really arrogant and was just a little more racist than everyone around them just a little bit. It's a little bit you win notice. Right. And he was like a kind of like an asset about an like an arrogant person about it. And so he was unlike -able so people kind of bullied him a little bit. And then he went then he did all the stuff, then he did everything. Right. It's like, yeah. Yeah. You full yourself. And then you're bullied. Then you turn into a monster. When August nineteen fourteen came around a Moseley found himself sent back to Sanders to finish his training August of nineteen fourteen. Of course is when. You know, the whole World War One thing with all the trenches. And there was a. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was there was yeah. Yeah. The the second one was kind of it was one of those things like the the new Star Wars movie where you know, you have you have a perfectly good thing. And then they like rebooted with a new cast, right? You know, industry better special effects and safe talks about that one. But give him one exists. The other one exists, and it was like more ground breaking up the ante, which you got up the ante. Now, there's a couple of tanks in the first one. Everybody's got the second. You know, there's pretty big bombs in the first one there's the biggest bomb ever in the second one. You know, it's just a little derivative. Yeah. I hope they'll make it a trilogy. I don't know. I mean, I'll watch. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I know. Hughes. With all with all the with all the new CGI available absolute. I mean, I mean, we just gotta hope it's like Jj Abrams or someone great, right? Right. Not like some Michael bay. But we don't want. Michael beta direct, Snyder sex Steiner. I mean, let's be honest. The only one who could really direct World War. Three would be Paul Vero. Von okay. I wanna see Paul van Hoven World War three. Kind of think we already have okay? When the war started Moseley found himself sent back to Sanders to finish his training. He wound up in the sixteenth queen's Lancers a cavalry union. He saw action on the western front and acquitted himself well win. He was promoted and transferred to work as an observer for the Royal flying corps. He was one of Britain's first pilots, although he did not distinguish himself with particular competence in this field during a training exercise with his mom and sister were watching the attempted to impress them. An accident crashed his plane say did he slip and fall off a window ledge kind of a plane. Mama. You looking this. This. Probably killed by sixteen stable boys when he crashed. But they just never wrote it down. Oh, sure. Yes. David boies, the amount of stable, boys. We had. We actually have a lot less sable boys for some reason. Starting in nineteen fifteen very few stable, boys. The accident injured him badly left him with Olympia would carry for the rest of his life. Mostly went back to the western front after that still injured in eventually passed out from pain at his post during a battle after that he spent the rest of World War One doing a desk job. So everything he does. It's like I'm gonna press so many people involved. Sounds delicate. But this. So we're gonna get we're going to get to what happens after World War One. Which is what are they wear? This story starts to pick up. But I you know, what I want to pick up is a product. Maybe a service you could recommend some. Could you? You know, what these people will recommend some to you? Love is hard. But I was so afraid I could lose everything love is wonderful and confusing and magical and infuriated often in the same day. She just finally said like if you think something's wrong with the baby, you know, what let's just check. And then thirty six hours later, they called me. And they said you have to rush her to the hospital, then I started mildly panicking. And I do gold looking for a quiz for is. My husband transgender that's not really his choice. He doesn't really have control over that. But yet he's still chooses to be the partner to me that he is. It's because I love you. I'm Joe Piazza join the millions of listeners who've made committed possible with our new season launching on April eleventh. Listen to committed on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Thank goodness. Yes. You guys. You guys land on any products? You're going to service yourself with them. All the services and products all the services in the ones that were mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. Those are losing my favorite of the product. Yeah. I actually wasn't sure about them. But then after listening to it. I was like, oh, I've been convinced on those products and services. You know, what that technique is Cody advertising, Katie knows? I waited till you started to say before I as I know how do you both it? It's a marketing advertising is also I think we're both been around to college a couple of times. Yeah. I popped in and out popped in and out. Speaking of people who popped in and out after Oswald Moseley popped out of World War One. Okay. Indyk? He married lady Cynthia occurs on the daughter of the viceroy of India. He's that kind of guy. He was elected to parliament straight away as a conservative MP for the district of Horo or Herro. I don't care because of the Bengal famine. What's hair say that? Yeah. He was twenty one years old when he was first elected because that's the scientific a wealthy noble family political office was basically seen as his do. Now that he was in politics Moseley's ideology was quite simple. Always do my utmost in all circumstances to prevent it. The first World War ever happening, again, solid solid motivation. Nobody wants to World War. Nobody wants a war, especially not a guy who likes it. Yeah. Yeah. Films as a couple of times that were he did have fighting to the trench it like he had friends dying six to he's sixty. Trinity real tall. You see everything? Yeah. Yeah. He had seen enough death on the western front that he considered it his duty to quote conceive, a nobler world in memory of those who died so that's far so far good path. Let's read the next paragraph. In nineteen twenty four mostly switched his political allegiance to the labour party. This was coincidentally the same year that the labor party I came to power in the house of Commons from nineteen twenty six to nineteen thirty Moseley was the MP of Smethwick he developed a reputation as a young brash political wounded Kent, but in nineteen twenty nine the stock market crashed Britain was hit very hard unemployment which had been at ten percent in nineteen twenty nine shot. The twenty two point two percent by nineteen thirty two on the British economy. Looked to be on the verge of collapse. The great reserves of golden jewels. The pirate spent the better part of two centuries. Plundering had all been spent to win or sort of win the great war. Now England appeared to be staring over the edge of a cliff Oswald Mosley hit sacrifice for his country. And he had seen many of his friends die for it since he was an ambitious young man with access to political power. He saw it as his duty to save his nation. And as he looked out into the rest of the world for suggestions on how he might do that his eyes were invariably drawn towards Italy in the accomplishments. Of a little dude. Name Benito Mussolini hell. Yeah. Gets to this dude. A little bit in passing in passing handsome. Very good. Looking guy hell of a job? Mussolini's Partito Nacional as she STA had just come to power in nineteen twenty two nowadays, we think of Mussalini as basically a cheap Italian rip off of Hitler faintly ridiculous for all his evil. But that's purely of you brought on by hindsight to people in the early twenties. Mussolini's relatively peaceful rise to power seemed almost miraculous ads through the apparent instant turnaround of the Italian economy in England much coverage of Mussalini and his bold new idea fed. She's MO was positive on November eighteenth nineteen twenty two the times of London called Mussalini, a masterful man and credited his program with bearing the stamp of his strong character. Like, most conservatives the editors of the times that Italian fascism was a reasonable reaction to political turmoil. Quote, the rise officials MO is the result. The natural result of the progressive degradation of the Representative system as it has been witnessed in Rome. So even progressive papers were reticent to entirely condemn the hip new ideology, the daily Telegraph's yearly review of major world events in nineteen. And twenty two didn't even mention the fascist coup that had just wept. Italy just wasn't seen as that big of a deal Italian fascism had inspired British imitators as soon as it appeared. The British fascist e party was formed in nineteen Twenty-three the national fishes de speil split off in nineteen twenty four and the imperial fascist league kicked off in nineteen twenty nine. None of these groups gained more than a few dozen members, nor did they manage anything more impressive than some graffiti and a few tiny marches in the mid nineteen twenties. It would have seen preposterous. If you'd suggest it to anyone that Oswald Mosley, the widely admired young politician would become a fascist himself in nineteen twenty four English socialist, author Beatrice Webb called him, quote, the most accomplished speaker in the house of comments, but after the crash of nineteen twenty nine mostly came to believe that radical change was necessary to save Britain from economic collapse. His first plan was written down in the Moseley memorandum. A document that suggested hardcore protectionist economic policies in order to protect domestic industry from foreign trade during. Golden age England had relied heavily on foreign export this had caused the depression to bite them harder than most because the collapse of their major trading partners, essentially wiped out British industry when most of the empire's political leaders wanted to essentially right out the depression until they get back to selling British goods all over the world mostly wanted to reform the entire economy into a state of autarky. In other words, he wanted British people to only buy and sell from other British people cutting them out of the world economy to render them immune to the stabilisation of its booms and busts. He wanted England to basically close its borders for the most part definitely didn't want it admitting any people from outside of England or anyone that it's a it's a Konami. It's it's it's agricultural production to be entirely self deficient. Now, this was also really common idea at the time. This was like Hitler's big idea too. Yeah. The basic foundation of like nationalisms protectionist, you keep everyone out and you do your own thing. Like a like maybe like help Mr. Moseley grew up by bigger thank him for all. His life was so perfect. Everything was protected and insulated. He just wanted to put Britain. Britain. I maybe you wanted to Oconee. Oh, cody. Oh, cody. Where he wanted to get to that wouldn't wanna put stop jumping ahead boilers. Just sounds like sounds like everything else. Sounds like every other cycle. But yeah. They're all the same for guys. Just seems like maybe they might be all reincarnated a bunch of losers with a bunch of loser ideas. Way to put it most of Moseley's, contemporaries, considered his ideas, kind of crazy, but Moseley's other plans were more reasonable. He wanted to institute a massive public works program spending two hundred million pounds over three years to create thousands of new jobs for England's unemployed masses. These jobs would include a mobile labour corps to rebuild the nation's slumps. This was actually pretty reasonable. It's essentially the same thing, you know, is one of the linchpins of FDR's new deal the civilian conservation corps, which is why my Granddad didn't starve during the great depression. He's building parks and stuff. Great idea. So mostly has some good ideas, and some bad ideas, like any politician. Well, actually, the fact that he had good ideas makes him a little bit. Yeah. The ideas thing really. Mostly sunny snowman of support for this idea. But his plan for how to make this happen said a lot of people on edge. I'm going to quote from Brett Reuben's the death of British fascism quote to combat unemployment into deal with the economic crisis in general Moseley believed that political power needed to be more centralized. He argued for the creation of a new cabinet led by the prime minister and other top impedes, which was to be advised by a think tank of economic experts. This cabinet was to utilize all of the resources of the nation to fight the economic disaster now that was radical, but not entirely without precedent Britain had done something similar during the great war with Lloyd. Georgia's supreme war council Moseley was basically saying that the nation needed to treat the great depression the way, they would treat a major war. It was not a popular idea among parliamentarians, but many British people thought he was right on the money. So mostly remained popular with the people even as Britain's political elite rejected his ideals and sought the heal the nation's export trade and revive the economy that way, the labor government sought to balance the budget, which required a massive. Cut to employment, benefits and other entitlements. Guess how that went for the labor government? Yeah. Yeah. Mostly was infuriated that the labor government had basically ignored his ideas. And in the spring of nineteen thirty he resigned from the labor party after giving a huge speech in front of parliament where he said that Britain's must quote get away from the belief that the only criterion for British prosperity is how many goods we can send abroad for foreigners to consume. This is his words were met with raucous cheering which helped further convince him that what he needed to do was create his own party. The solve the nation's problems. He grew even more popular after this speech in his resignation in many of his fellow parliamentarians even began to see him as something of a hero in nineteen thirty-one Oswald Mosley announced the formation of a new political party, which he called the new party since he was not the most creative man in the world. He convinced several other members of the labor party to resign enjoying them as well. Some of these guys got cold feet and jumped ship instantly, but enough people stayed the course that they were able to give the new party the go the new party's goals were based around the principles Moseley hit already outlined. He wanted to create a small six-man council who could pass legislation it will in order to make necessary economic changes faster. What would have just six guys had the power? Mothers get this done quicker. Army? What are you doing? The new party advocated strong import controls Moseley also created the new party youth club in order to get young men. Interested in politics, his politics. I lot of British liberals and progressives joined a party, they assumed was meant for them in one thousand nine thirty one due partly to the failure of their authority measures, but largely to the existence of the new party, the labor party got fewer votes than the conservative party. This pissed off quite a lot of people quote from the death of British fascism following the declaration of the results and angry mob formed outside the town hall. They shouted at Moseley calling him traitor Judas, the son of the defeated labor candidate charged the steps and accused Mosele with ruining his father's chances. In response. Mostly turned to John stretchy and said that is the crowd that has prevented anyone from doing anything in England since the war, one of Moseley's friends would later state has believed that this was the moment. British fascism was born you so angry that people won't let him do exactly what he wants to. He wants to do. This is the same. And people don't agree entirely with they parts of it. But they don't agree with all of it. There's supposed to rich. Yeah. They need to agree with everything agree with everything. He has two six two six two on. All right. So the guy in charge of the labor party, a felony MacDonald chose to make nice with the conservatives in order to retain some power for labor in government. This meant the new party suffered attacks from both screwing over labor and was cut out of power while labor moved closer to the middle is nineteen thirty to started Moseley's party was a miserable failure in his political career seemed to be near its end before the thirty one elections. He promised to resign from public life for a decade if he lost, but he did not actually do this. Instead, he decided that the failure of his party in the election left fascism as the only option remaining tough. Let's just always left with what else. What else are you gonna do? You lose an election. You got to go to fashion given me no choice. No choice like as amazing. Every like from the very beginning. Oh, yeah. You confidently to thing. And then you lose, and then you get a little worse. Lorcy learning from it. Get a little worse. Get a little worse, and then get to get to where you need to get to where you need to be which is where he is in January of nineteen thirty two when he visits Italy. If Benito Mussolini's explicit requests, the two men both had backgrounds a socialist politicians, and we're both frustrated with dealing with their nations tedious political bickering Moseley took to Mussalini at once seeing him as a kindred spirit and a man's man. This meeting convinced Oswald Mosley, quote, the age of democracy was over. Here we go. That's where that's where it said. That's where it sat when he returned to winning Moseley wrote a loving article about Mussalini is regime for the Daily Mail stating quote, oh, we're going to be talking about the Daily Mail. Yes. Stating quote, no time is wasted. In the polite banalities, which is so irked the younger generation in Britain when dealing with our elder statesman Moseley wrote that the Italian mind was hard concentrated direct in modern now the efficiency of fascism compensated for quote the right to bladder. He believed British politicians love to well. It's officiant. So why do we need free speech? Was that going to get us? It's just going to waste time. Just waste. It says practical, you guys this is just make sense mostly rebuffed multiple opportunities to reenter the political mainstream including invitations to work with former prime Minister, David Lloyd, George in invitations from Winston Churchill. He also rejected the decision of many of his new party comrades joined the communist party. After the disastrous nineteen thirty one elections. If there was one thing Oswald Moseley hated it was communism. He believed that class conflict could only end in violent revolution. And instead felt at fascism would do a better job of providing equality of opportunity. I'm wanted to destroy capitalism. Oswald just wanted to reform nobody you got it wrong. Change change. That is the tagline of this podcast. Nothing has ever changed or ever will change. His people are just kinda dumb. A lot of the time. Lazy dumb petty. Lazy? Dumb stubborn scared of not having nice things. Moseley knew that Italian or German fascism wouldn't just work if it was transplanted in England he decided that say. Nation. It would be his duty to create a new and uniquely British form. A phase. Sure. It's what are we? What are we? I know this got seventy million people killed. But what if we? Oh, she's just like what are the British flavors? Well, sticky toffee pudding. What if it's peppermint bubble gum poison? What we what do we throw a little lie? We'll go. The poison didn't work because it was like we need to make 'em all the Jewish people. What have we tweak the flavor a little changed the uniform slightly now, they're killing Muslims. Okay. Okay. Oh, okay. What if okay? What if? Okay, what if we change it slightly again? What have we look at this flag? This is a nice flag. I like flex is a different flag last voting things to flags some of us are going to use the same flex. He's very similar flags. You might like wink at other flat. Now part of why Moseley was so drawn to the idea. British fascism was his military background during his time in the service mostly has developed a love of discipline. You can brutal discipline one of his friends. Harold Nicholson said at the time that quote, Tom cannot keep his mind off shock troops the arrest of his political enemies their internment in the isle of white and the role of drums around Westminster. He is a romantic that is a great failing keeps my arresting his enemies such your romantic romantic has wims ical. Brutalism wind cicle brutality. I see the problem here. Hugh, guys, think words mean the wrong thing. No. They know that they mean. Yeah. That problem is that we think words mean things, right. We put actual meaning into words, and they don't give a shit about anything done. He's a romantic, Cody, that's his failing. Passion. Because when I'm when I'm taking a lady out on on on an nice state and want to impress her for first thing. I do. Sure, my shock-troops absolutely in my enemies on the isle awaiting in a little bit of neck in the back of the car. It's an aphrodisiac out. Ladies love seeing the political enemies of guy. Get locked up on the Iowa white. Yeah. Since they're all British. It would definitely be why? Nineteen thirty. In October nineteen thirty Oswald Mosley officially founded the British union of fascists or B U F. He wrote a book years later. Yes. He was kind of buff. Give that to them to he wrote a book of years later, titled fascism one hundred questions asked and answered explained why he decided to use the same word as the Germans in Italian rather than invent a new term that might have been more palatable to English ears, quote, fascism is the name by which the modern movement has come to be known in the world. It would have been possible to avoid misrepresentation by calling our movement, which he capitalized the by another name. But it was more honest to call it fascism and just let everyone know exactly where we stood it is up to us to defeat misrepresentation by propaganda and explanation of the real policy and method of fascism as it will operate in Britain in the long run straightforward, dealing is not only honest, but also pays the best. So he was an honest. Yeah. Fascist hate propaganda fascist you'd like to have a beer with. If you weren't, you know, would you then you would not know with that? He wouldn't let you in his house, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, what we'll let you in. This is a bad ad lead in that that shouldn't be how we do this. No. That was good. Maybe put like a river of something a little nicer. Little little what do we what do we what's a product. We can advertise for that's on the table right now. Alto leads curiously, cool mints. I noticed your Al towards Katie come in a nice, silver containment? You could also store your Weeden. Absolutely. Some some pills of MDA taps acid could store a lot of things in this little cops probably aren't going to search your Alto. It's container. Yeah. They're less likely than a jar labeled acid unless they listen to this podcast. Funding. There are other drugs. You can keep in there though. There are. Don't let me a little bit alcohol in their Kadhafi like this show. Don't listen to that most cops love this show. That's a big part of our listening. It's weird. All cops are behind the bastards fans. That's exactly it. Punk shows. They seemed like they cross out a lot of the words. But right, but I know it. But I know what they're like how you don't put the of or the. Find the best outcomes. I think we've put enough daylight between that antisemitism stuff. And services. Hi, I'm Robert Lamm, host of stuff to blow your mind and invention. And I'd like to invite you to the science fiction podcasting event of the year transgenesis into the world of the second oil age a richly realized world in which humanities thirst for oil takes them to the bottom of the sea and the threshold of eight world in each short-form episode, you'll follow agents pond as she investigates. The disappearance of missing you dex petroleum executive aboard a sprawling deep sea station. It's a tale of intrigue action and SCI fi horror attend episode season publishing in two parts April fifteenth in twenty nine listen in subscribed to transgenesis on apple podcast the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts. And we're back so so after establishing the British union of fascists mostly outright or right away published a book called the greater Britain, which he hoped would polish the bad reputation fascism had gotten over all those deaths from the Spanish civil war and the bombing of guanaco and all the people that the Nazis put nuts and train can all of that stuff. You know in the greater Britain. He assured the English people that fascism did not necessarily mean to tell a -tarian ISM or loss of liberty. British fascism would be a dictatorship. Yes. The one that was moderated in accountable to the people via legislative assembly who did he want to be the the dignity? I mean you wanted to be the dictator. He did he wanted Oswal Moseley to be probably. Oh, man. Being on that Tommy onto. Now Oswald Moseley assured people that his fascism did not require violence to gain power. If the BUF could just gain enough seats in parliament, they implement the changes he suggested in a perfectly legal manner Queen. To talk about that. Oh, he's got a job for the Queen. And the who was a candidate skiing at this point. Yeah. So Moseley tried to convince the people that embracing this idea and adopting a gradually was a Smart Choice because fascism with the new way of things worldwide in Britain might as well get a head start if they wanted to compete. This was basically him cribbing a concept from an essay by Benito Mussolini doctrine of fascism, which said this, quote, if the nineteenth century was the century of the individual liberalism implies individualism. We are free to believe that this is the collective century and therefore the century of the state in other words, the twentieth century would be the fascist century. And there was no sense fighting it given where the global balance power stood in nineteen thirty two. It's easy to see how a number of people could have come to this conclusion Moseley told his people that both left and right wing had failed them the right wing could guarantee stability, but it could not create progress the left brought progress, but instability, a fascist middle was necessary to unite the two like like. Like, there's like they're like two ways. But what if there was like a and then the more than more than two way? It's a second plus one second plus one way. Yeah. Like a almost Fourth Way. I think those are the only two ways to to describe it. Okay. Okay. I got it. We know that quote, fascism is not dictatorship in the old sense of the word which implies government against the will of the people instead mostly believed that fascism rested quote on the enthusiastic acceptance of the people and could not endure without their support. So that's good. That's also essential wins a coal fascist a whimsical fascist. You went that support. You know, it's it's it's it's Winnie. The Pooh fish is. If it gets a little I get hung up on. So this Britain. I this this 'isolation est kind of idea but taking so much like putting Mussalini on a pedestal in like, celebrating other places. You got a problem with Mussolini, Katie. No, he's hard. I've only I've only read Italian history up until about nineteen thirty four. But it seemed pretty cool guy. Yeah. I've only read German history up until about nineteen twenty nine. Donald good speakers around that time engaging speakers really good to hear good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for what comes next for them. No spoilers wonder what else they have to say. So, but we'll also because that whole where you're saying about how like yeah Britain. I, but then you support like Mussolini's people. That's just what they do. Like there's legally Hitler quote. It's like, yeah. I'm not saying we're better than anybody. I think we should be like our own thing, and like Japan, they do their own thing does their right thing. We all just sort of do well thing better China's Japan's thing. Sure. Sure. He was he was not a fan of China doing its own thing. You don't believe he said that in the that quote? Yes. Yes. Just so interesting. We respect what they're doing. And we want to steal it. But we want them to be far away from us. And you know. Yeah. Yeah. Now in Moseley's vision of British fascism, his equivalent to the German fewer would be the minister a single man who would have basically all the power in Britain. But who would be subject to a vote of confidence every five years, if the people stop supporting this dictator, the king would be able to appoint a new one who would then have to go about earning the support of the masses. So that he could win a confidence vote that seems like a lot of checks and balances there's one. That's lot. That's a check. None one that's a lot. That is a lot. Here's a good amount of time for a dictator. Didn't seem like a rulers best interest to have a dictator. But what if we have another ruler? Who's like, all right. You don't like that dictator? What about this? So you might see how reasonable people though, could get suckered into the British union of fascists considering this is before that whole World War Two things started to democracy people who've seen some flaws in. I mean, I'm I'm I understand therapy. Who can fall into like, this isn't a little more understandable and nineteen thirty two say twenty nine thousand nine. Sure, sure. Yeah. Definitely agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. As modern is Moseley's new take on fascism may have seemed on the surface it quickly turned into the battle fascism. We all know and hate the first signs of this were obvious from the way Moseley and his fellow fascist react to the disruption of their meetings, and mostly speeches the first signs of this were obvious from the way Moseley and his fellow fascist reacted to the disruption of their meetings and mostly speeches by people who will call I don't know not fascism Lakers. Yeah. Title shopping sits for shop. Shop is fresh opposites. Great starting with the announcement of the BUF party gatherings were often disrupted by hecklers, mostly communists, and other assorted fetch opposites over Moseley until they were jetted from the gathering for a little while Moseley grim, and bore it. But after a few months of this he decided to form a paramilitary organization dedicated to stopping these sorts of disruptions. Well worth things go off. Took a couple of months. Takes established a youth league right away, of course, which initially just encouraged its young members to be Atlantic and play sports like rugby, the young men wore no uniform and therefore did not set off any alarm bells is military force initially a government study later revealed most Britons viewed mostly as quote, a colorful, a Centric and fascist occasions is inner -taining spectacles, but as disruptions of fascist evinced grew more frequent Moseley reformed, the youth auxiliary into something with sharper teeth, the soon to be infamous black shirts. Yeah. They were black shirts. And yeah, teams good for fourteen for. Sports team. Yeah. You you need getting colors sports seems exam. You're jerseys. Exactly. Here's the death of British fascism. Quote, Moseley stated that the black shirt Stewart's and originated with his resolve to not succumb to disruptors Moseley claim that as the movement gained momentum. So did its resistors rather than allow his meetings to be shut down by a disruptive organized minority? Moseley created the London defense force to train and recruit more black shirt Stewart's he claimed that the creation of the black shirts was entirely out of defensive necessity a result of increasing hostility to his movement. However, there is evidence that this force had an offensive capability as well. The press accused blackshirts of unprovoked attacks on communists, and later Jews. The times testified the black shirts verbally provoking, a group of young Jewish men in London in the summer of nineteen thirty three the daily worker of January twenty third nineteen thirty six charged mostly black shirts with rating it's offices turning over cars and causing extensive damage what the blackshirts also Mussalini need brown-shirt Brown, Mussolini's shoot I forget, which one Mussalini had is black shirts luxury. What was the black church? Yeah. Brown shirts were Hitler's. They all got their dad that they're fucking shirts today today is Fred Perry. A bit more creative. Yeah. Yeah. They all got in. Punish your logos? Yeah. And they're alarm shields. Life. Shields and stuff from nineteen thirty three to nineteen thirty seven Oswald, mostly average, two hundred speeches a year each of them accompanied by a large group of blackshirts. These young men lived in Chelsea London at a barracks called the black house at the height of the BUF more than a thousand men live there fulltime they trained in jujitsu and lived under military discipline for nineteen thirty two one. They were a constant and very visible presence at rallies. Now, the blackshirts received a major endorsement in the public consciousness in nineteen thirty four when Lord Roth MIR a conservative newspaper tycoon embrace the BUF and its paramilitary auxiliary. Roth mayor ran a little newspaper. You may have heard of called the Daily Mail on January eighth nineteen thirty four the mail published an article titled hurrah for the black shirts, I'd like to read a few quotations from that article was written by Lert RAF MIR himself, he's he's counted as viscount Roth mayor in this which is a word, I know how to pronounce. Yeah. Even though spelled discount which is. Dumb vicomte. That's actually, probably right. I don't know. I mean, I don't I don't vice vice cut RAF mayor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. Okay. Great. But I'm from pass because he's not good enough to be a full one. No, sir. Yeah. He could assist one. Yeah. Yeah. In certain areas. Again, quote from hurrah for the black shirts. What if the Daily Mail is is still a great newspaper anyway because of ashes them comes from Italy shortsighted people in this country think they show a sturdy national spirit by writing it. If their ancestors had been equally stupid Britain would have no banking system. No Roman law, nor even any football since all of these are of Italian invention, the Romans invented cool stuff, so Italian fascism sweet his how. Love logic and reason that's well, the baby cowards the socialist, especially who jeer at the principles of in uniform of the black shirts is being of a foreign origin. Forget that the founder and high priest of their own creed was the German Jew. Karl Marx put that ju- right in the front there, though, the name informa- fascism originated in Italy that movement is not now peculiar to any nation. It stands in every country for the party of youth represents the effort of the youngest generation to put new life into an out of date political systems that alone is enough to make it a factor of immense value in our national affairs, blackshirts proclaim a fact which politicians dating from prewar days were never face that the new age requires new methods in new men. I don't have it all on here. It's only chunk of the thing this thing, but we get the you get the idea article. It's crazy crazy newsreel is the that's the next article woman through the ages boy, so she wasn't from Britain, by the way. Now, let's thinking that too. But you can import things from other countries. Yeah. Like roads, just nothing. But not the people not the peanut the people are no circumstance. Katie. Absolutely. No. I'm not. No, they're not wearing the right shirt. Not the best from other cultures. Just not any there'd be people. Well, they're not sending their best. So they're not going to send their best. Of course, not unlike Oswald Moseley trains has bested U jitsu so that they can destroy newspaper offices exactly to his six game. Among other great ideas. Lord RAF mayor declared Mussalini to be the greatest man of the twentieth century in another one of his articles. Didn't didn't that age? Well. Trump there, by the way, he's the best the best. He's he's the best person that in one thousand nine hundred thirty two I'm confident will arise in the seventy eight years. Curious. He how his position involves. I mean, if you read the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail for reference after the Christ Church shootings just provided a free. Download of the shooter's manifesto to anyone who wanted to avoid. Are there any good publications that are daily like zeitgeist the daily podcast? Okay. That was the setup. Daily some the daily caller go. No, no. It's almost like releasing a bunch of stuff every day on a thing that you can't like do any really great analysis. And maybe you know, the best you can hope for is reporting. That's that's not nonsense, and even then a lot of the times people are going to get it wrong until like Cincinati was like instant reactions to stuff isn't responsible news, it it might be. I mean newspaper has destroyed every day. I mean lot quite a lot of daily publications that are like I roll away. Oh, yeah. They're all bad except for the daily. Thank guys extended news. I of course, I mean, literally daily wire tally collar Daily Mail Mary profit, the daily show that would be Harry Potter do not want to be listening to that. Harry Potter was a Harry Potter. The whole thing was a setup for a Harry Potter, but people well. Yeah. I'm sure once J K Rowling, here's this. We'll get a couple of tweets about what Moseley was his wizard. Ing. Insertion mostly want bad because he was secretly trans or something. Okay. But I wanna know her thoughts on the goblin bankers. Anyway. Oh, boy head is something I did not catch as a nine year old. Sneaks up on you. Derailed this enough. It's fine in nineteen thirty when the Nazis had gone from twelve to one hundred and seven speech in the right dog. Lord, Roth mayor had pendant article for the Daily Mail, stating the Nazis represent the rebirth of Germany as a nation, which was not entirely inaccurate. Fair. Fun fact, the Daily Mail online is today, the world's largest English-language newspaper website. But I'm sure they've gotten a lot better. I wrote all this before I said. Their garbage and don't don't go there. Well, Moseley's rallies grew more and more violent in the black shirts got better and better at doing violence. Lord. Roth mayor continued to praise the British union of fascists on Moseley was accused of wanting to establish a quote system of rulership by means of steel whips and concentration camps Roth MIR called his critics tired alarmists in panic mongers, the support of Roth MIR and the Daily Mail thousands upon thousands of new Britain's to join the UF this meant Moseley gave more speeches to large crowds, which led to more vicious black shirt beatings of protesters and disruptive elements early in the early in the US history. Moseley tried to dispatch his hecklers by making fun of them. He was a great public speaker some say one of the best in the history of English politics. So this worked for a while. But as time went on, the black shirts took more and more of that responsibility and used more and more violence to do it. According to the death of British fascism, quote, brutality on both sides of the podium abounded in this period. Although Moseley claimed he forbade his blackshirts to use weapons of any kind. The constitution of the black shirts outlined careful rules for keeping order it BUF meetings. It stated interrupters we'll be. Objected only on the instructions of the speaker. When the persistence of interrupted prevents those in his vicinity from hearing, the speech exa- ejection will be carried out with a minimum of force necessary in my life. Mosely recalls. The slogan he used to inspire his protectors. We never start fights. We only finish them both hecklers and blackshirts regularly carried weapons from brass knuckles to razor blades. Moseley was proud that never once was one of his meetings broken up. But this was only possible due to the intense violence, deployed by his black shirts. Moseley would later write that these devoted young men saved free speech in Britain. Her care. They did I hate how many times you use the free speech in your podcast. I know I know you. This is their favorite dog. Whistle. I know it's. Yeah. It's frustrating. It's free speech is good. It is good. But words, don't mean. Things to them know. Yeah. The communist party was the largest organized opposition to the BUF their newspaper, the daily worker cheered. When four blackshirts were hospitalized after an ambush in Edinburgh. This built and built until a plan B UF rally on June. Seventh nineteen thirty four in Olympia. This rally was planned to bring more than fifteen thousand fascist together. Twelve thousand of those people were actual audience members. There are meaning three thousand were black shirts in and out of uniform waiting throughout the crowd to break up. The communist resistance, they knew it was coming the communist party had asked its local leaders to buy as many tickets to the meeting as possible having their members Sinden ticket requests along with lurid letters of support for fascism. The plan was that anti-fascist demonstrators could hide themselves in small groups throughout the massive audience members after mostly introduced himself. They'd start chanting slogans like fascism means murder down with Mosely until they were physically removed. Other groups would cut the lighting cables. These interrupters would all wear black shirts to confuse the fascists and they'd stagger. Their disruptions in order to make sure that as soon as fascist cleared. One group out the next would start up completely derailing the planned meeting. This plan worked brilliantly for the first hour or so of the meeting until the black shirts managed to ferret out, basically, all the communists. They're moved thirty people in total twenty one of these people who are arrested outside by the police for obstruction. Public disturbance interviews with a cooperate in the end Mosely was able to finish his speech. He made as much as he possibly could out of the demonstrators showing up that same night on the BBC. He claimed that communists at attempted to shout down free speech and ask the audience. Now, I put it to you to your sense of fair play would you have handled these reds, very gently when you had seen your men kicked in the stomach and slashed with razors, your women with faces streaming and blood now there was evidence that anything like that had happened. In fact, one of the other panelists interviewed had been at the speech and denied seeing any weapons in communist hands at all. Instead he said that he'd seen interrupters struck in the head in the stomach all over the body with complete absence of restraint. He. Call it the worst violence he'd seen short of the war to their credit. The BBC would not have Moseley honest guest again for more than twenty years the media sided with the interrupters widely panting Moseley's blackshirts for their violent response to what amounted to minor acts of disruption. Geoffrey Lloyd, conservative MP attended the rally later told the times of London. He was quote appalled by the brutal conduct of the fascist last night five or six fascists carried out an interrupt your arms and legs. Several other blackshirts were engaged in kicking and hitting his lifeless body oddly enough Moseley's biggest supporter in the mainstream was David Lloyd, George liberal shortly after the meeting, George Roden editorial stated, quote, it is difficult to explain what the fury of the champions of free speech should be concentrated. So exclusively not on those who deliberately and resolutely attempted to prevent the public expression of opinions of which they disapproved but against those who fought however, roughly for freedom of speech, Lloyd, George believed that people who showed up at a political meeting with the intent of disrupting it have no right to complain. If an exasperated audience handles them rudely. Rudely rudely rudely with the whims. With win wins a coup brutality so much use of the phrase, free speech. And then of which were written by me, by the way, these you're all, oh, I believe you. Yeah. I know this wing towards greater violence occurred right alongside another event that would further radicalize Moseley's fascist party three weeks. After the Olympia rally was the night of long nights where Hitler's Nazi party consolidated power by murdering at least eighty five political rivals. Many people who'd been on the fence about this Hitler, fellow and has Nazism left, right? The fuck off that fence after the night of long knives. But mostly and the BUF back there fascist brothers to the hilt black shirt the BUF's official newspaper claimed that the men Hitler murdered. We're guilty of the greatest fascist crime disloyalty to the leader. Yeah. Speech guys. Well. Not once you're in charge speech until you get in charge. Ryan, then never again. Okay guy. That's less patchy dial, just below it. Yup. And get a lot lower. I dunno violence. I guess man. They love beating people they do love beating people up. It's a lot of fun. So. This is the move that finally lost Moseley the support of Lord Roth mayor he pulled the Daily Mail support of the B O F in the very next issue. Brave. Yeah. Brave man. He only supported them for like he's a coward. Couple of your couple of a couple of years a couple of years until all the things that he said became clear that he meant them. Yeah. Oh, you meant the things. Oh shit to be taking you literally this whole time. Maybe I'm you watching apologies. British people. Sorry at the time Moseley claimed Roth mayor had only chickened out on his fascism due to pressure from a cabal of Jewish advertisers. It was one of the first stirrings of public antisemitism from Oswald Moseley who up until this point had walked a fine line of supporting the Nazis and being a fascist without actually blaming the Jews for all the world's wars that would change rather dramatically as time went on. But we'll have to tell that story on Thursday. When we come back for part two of Oswald Moseley's life story. I can't wait. Good luck. Tommy, he guys thing is going in. Well, yeah, I'll stories have good ending. They do they do. I feel like he's going to be cool guy. I think he's going to be a cool guy with good opinions who goes about. Bring those opinions to fruition in healthy productive kind ways. I feel the same way. I think he's gonna get married and settled down I do too. I think oh, yes. Part of mind, a wife and be couple of wives. Maybe maybe a harem. Who's legally obligated to never leave the palace. He seems like that kind of guy is does kinda guy can't tell if you're there so many somebody. Let's let's let's plug some plug Ables before we we we pretend to go away until part two. I won't see you for another day or two we're going to go with somebody's that somebody do this show. We keep driving back a couple of you. Can check us out online. We've got podcasts. Even more news podcasts. We've got a patriot patriotic dot com slash some more news, which and the YouTube YouTube show has called somewhere news. It's on YouTube. You can do it also somewhere news Twitter. My personal Twitter's Dr Worcester Cody mines, Katie stall. And I think those are all of the things we can plug. I you can blow whatever you want first off. Coming back a couple of weeks. I don't think a lot of people have heard of that. Oh, it's a great show. Yeah. They should catch up on it. Check. Check that one. I want that anything has got dragons got cutting got him. But but to be fair, the dragons are computer generated. Oh, well, so sorry. This is disappointing. He's a real bummer. I thought they were cloning time. I'm Robert Evans. You can find me on Twitter at I right? Okay. You can find this podcast on the internet at behind the bastards dot com. We have shirts. T public dot com by shirt by two shirts, by three shirts. Four shirts. Five six shirts. Seven eight nine. We don't have that many designed by multiples by ten you don't have an old cop serpine the best. The crap bibs season. They're working on. That one's going to go over real. Well. People love it all kinds that'll be my new drive-in shirt instead of lives. Do crime shirt on your podcast. You haven't heard it. I said, I'll tell you. Shirts bell, man. This is the episode go. Go hug, your family or some shit. Well is hard. But I was so afraid I could lose everything love is wonderful and confusing magical and infuriated everything about life that we had thought and planned and hoped for was just in that moment on I was so so so lucky have that trying the millions of listeners who've made committed possible with our new season launching on April eleven. Listen to commit it on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
October 4, 2020: Battle of Cable Street
"In Nineteen seventy-nine Jeffrey McDonald was convicted of the murders of his pregnant wife and two daughters from the award. Winning producers of the jenks comes a wilderness of error a new fx documentary series that reexamines this case to finally answer. The media shaped public opinion to help convict an innocent man. Or A, D. Jeffrey MacDonald kill his family. A wilderness of error now, streaming effects on Hulu. Today is Sunday October four, th two, thousand twenty on this day in nineteen thirty six the British. Union. Of fascists violently clashed with anti fascist organizations in the battle of cable street over one, hundred, fifty people were injured in the confrontation. Welcome to today in true crime a podcast original. Today, we're covering the battle of cable street of violent altercation that broke out after several anti fascist organizations attempted to stop the British. Union of Fascists from marching in London. Now, let's go back to the east end on the afternoon of October. Fourth. Nineteen thirty six. A massive crowd thrums with anticipation on the streets of Stepney a predominantly Jewish district in eastern London people of all stripes stood side by side many locals in the throng were pleasantly surprised to see Irish dockers, the local Communist Party and members of trade unions surrounding them in solidarity. It was a rare moment of hope for the Jewish community since the end of World War One anti Semitism had been on the rise in western Europe. The Jewish population was unjustly blamed for everything from economic depression to public immorality. Indeed Anti Semitism was the driving reason that the British. Union of Fascists or B. You F. had scheduled a march in Stepney in the first place the organization led by radical Fascist Oswald Moseley wanted to provoke the Jewish community, it was the fourth anniversary of the BUF's creation and they were determined to spread hate in the streets. But the community refused to let them days before October fourth. The Jewish People's Council released a petition signed by one hundred thousand people urging the city to cancel the scheduled March. The city refused not only did they order the demonstration to continue as planned? They mobilized the London Police Division seven thousand officers to clear the streets for the B. U. F. that. Morning the anti-fascist didn't back down a coalition of the, national Jewish. Organizations. Communist. Party members and laborers formed to block the streets on the day of the March. Exact numbers are difficult to know for sure. But modern analysts often estimate over one hundred thousand people showed up to unite against the buf also known as the blackshirts because of their black military style uniforms. Things were tense from the start the young Communist League began by all piling. Park the location where the fascist plan to hold their rally. Meanwhile, Jewish demonstrators were attacked by police when they refused to disperse. At the entrance to the east end anti-fascists parked four trams to block the way as the blackshirts attempted to march through. They were stopped by a massive crowd a deafening chorus of voices joined together to chant they shall not pass. Thousands of officers soon, arrived on horseback and attempted to violently expel the protestors despite their brutality. They were unable to stand against the large number of anti-fascists and were eventually forced to retreat the police then led the Buf to cable street so they could commence their march along a separate route. But the protesters had anticipated the change in plaid's barricades had already been erected around cable st making the road almost impassable shards of glass ripped up cobblestone and marbles littered the pavement to prevent officers on horseback from crossing the border while police tried to take down the barricades local residents pelted them with vegetables and other projectiles skirmishes between protesters, the black shirts, and the authorities grew more violent until tensions threatened to completely boil over. It soon became clear to police that the march would be impossible. There were simply too many anti-fascists blocking the roads As the buf retreated accompanied by the authorities, what was a battle suddenly became a lively celebration. But the conflict was far from over. Coming. Up protesters are punished for standing up to the British Union of Fascists. Listeners I'm so excited to introduce you to the newest spotify original from podcast called blind dating hosted by Youtuber Tara. Michelle blind dating is a fun twist on a classic setup. Strangers are introduced conversation commences and sparks either fly or fizzle but here's the catch are hopeful singles have to choose their match before ever seen their face and once they've picked potential date, we turn the cameras on and then it's either butterflies or goodbyes blind dating airs weekly with new episodes. Every Wednesday you can find and follow blind dating free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Shipped is delivery done differently, their expert shoppers, pickup, fresh groceries, household essentials, and even pet supplies from local stores. You love you can get everything delivered to your door and as soon as one hour. So you can save time for the good stuff like perfecting that freshly baked loaf of bread or around to reading that novel that's been collecting dust for the past month or so you're shopper will keep you updated with texts from the aisles and can pick in season produce like a total. got full shoppers, unbelievably fresh produce and peace of mind. That's the difference shipped. Makes try same-day delivery for yourself at ship dot com slash true crime today. That's S. H. I. P. T. dot com slash true crime. Now back to the story. On October Fourth Nineteen thirty six, a group of over one hundred thousand people united to stop the British Union of Fascists from marching in Stepney. A predominantly Jewish district of eastern London the event is now known as the battle of Cable Street. As the BUF and their accompanying police were chased away. Cheers erupted from the crowd. But for many the celebration was short lived. The altercation was violent and many anti-fascist protesters were injured over a hundred languished in temporary clinics that were set up in local cafes and shops by the local communist party on top of that around eighty, five protesters were arrested during the battle meanwhile, only six of the blackshirts who had violently retaliated against. Them were carted off to jail bail funds had to be formed with community donations to provide the various anti fascist groups with legal aid. The money was badly needed, but it often wasn't enough to save the demonstrators from harsh convictions. Some received sentences for hard labor while others were forced to pay fines for their actions. The city courts clearly intended to make the protesters pay for running the you f. out of the east end. Even worse than these punishments were the public's counter reaction to the protests support for the buf sword with nearly two thousand new members joining following their failure in Stepney a week after the incident two hundred anti Semites largely comprised of young men toward through the streets of the east end, the mob broke shop windows, and brutally targeted the Jewish community. The. Attack was termed the mile and Paul Graham and became one of Britain's most well known anti Jewish riots. The event scandalized many in the local government and influence the passing of the Public Order Act in nineteen thirty six, which prevented citizens from wearing political uniforms during marches. These moves and others hurt the appeal of Oswald mostly the leader of the B. You. Together, with his outrageous rhetoric, his paramilitary style uniforms were a major aesthetic his organization for many veterans and other fascists over the following years his membership declined as his violent depraved and antisemitic attitude was exposed again, and again in nineteen forty, the be UF was permanently disbanded. The Battle of Cable Street is remembered as a tremendous victory against the forces of fascism and antisemitism. Massive crowd that gathered there to defend. Stepney was a rare show of solidarity that gave many new hope in the community. But though the fascist were knocked down that day, they weren't knocked out during World War Two it took the vigilance and the lives of millions to defeat a poisonous anti Semitic ideology today. Perhaps the best way to thank the brave men and women who stood up against fascism. All those years ago is to do the same in our modern era. We must stamp out prejudice and injustice wherever we find it. Thanks for listening to today in true crime I'm Vanessa Richardson. Today in true crime is a podcast original. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and all other podcast originals for free on spotify not only spotify already have your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like today and true crime for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream today in true crime on spotify, just open the APP and. Type today in true crime in the search bar, we'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in True Crime Today in true crime was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler sound designed by one Boorda with production assistance by Ron. Shapiro Carly. Madden, and Aaron Larson, this episode of today in true crime was written by Carole Wells with writing assistance by Abigail cannon I'm Vanessa Richardson. Remember to follow blind dating for a dash of romance and rejection Youtuber Terra. Michelle hosts than she is thrilled to help hopeful singles meet their match once they've survived the hotseat follow blind dating free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
How To Survive a Public Shaming With Katie Hill
"This episode of how to is brought to you by ore-ida like it or not kids have their own rules. When it comes to the food, they eat one day they're picking all the Pepperoni pizza and the next day they're refusing to eat anything that's green the good news, the makers of or writer America's favorite fry created a simple method to help parents regain control at dinnertime it's called potato pay. It's easy in exchange for eating their Broccoli cauliflower. You offer your kids serving of golden crispy fries as compensation. Later in the show, listen to how one parent Mandy discovers how she can use potato pay to get her kids to eat their veggies. Do you. Remember when that kind of hit you where all of a sudden you just felt shame. Oh, at the moment is completely unforgettable. It's when my staff walked into my office with just completely ashen faces. And turned her phone towards me and it was it was one of the naked photos. Welcome to how to I'm Charles Duhig. Each week on the show, we try to solve listeners problems, and usually those struggles are pretty relatable. Family conflicts or worse troubles or how to lose. Weight. But. This week's listener is going through an experience that very few people can relate to. My name is Katie Hill former congresswoman from California and currently the author of she will rise. If you know the name Katie Hill, it's probably not just because she was elected to Congress in two thousand eighteen. At the age of thirty one katie was one of the youngest woman ever elected to the House of Representatives and she did so by flipping a historically red district in California to blue, she was brought into Nancy Pelosi Circle and she seemed destined for a bright future in the Democratic Party. But. Then just a year after she was elected. Everything began to fall apart my estranged ex husband he decided to release naked images of me, and so those were those were published on Red State which is a right wing blog and in the daily mail and it revealed that I had had a relationship with a woman who had worked on my campaign and ultimately it just kept coming kept coming these photos they dribbled out for days on blogs and social media creating this huge firestorm she was a rising star in the democratic nude pictures of Hill in the campaign staffer were published online identifies as bisexual. Noticeably absent from the halls of Congress today to some People Katie was the embodiment of cyber exploitation of victim of vengeful ex husband. Others though said, Katie was victimized or herself the House Ethics Committee announced that it was investigating Katie for being involved with a male member of congressional staff, which is an allegation that Katy has and continues to deny. But she did admit to having a romantic relationship with a female subordinate who worked on her campaign. and. That wasn't technically against congressional rules. But it seemed uncomfortably close to situations of bosses had slept with their employees. Into Katie. All of this the attacks in the nonstop questions from reporters. It all filled completely overwhelming. My initial reaction was, of course I can survive this. Especially, if you look at who our president is and just so many scandals that especially male politicians have survived, but it was just the sense that it would never end as starting to feel more and more like a like a pariah like people couldn't trust me and just this over Wyoming weight of knowing that. So many people had seen these photos and had this horrible of who or what I am. That was not consistent with the way that I saw myself in the work that I was trying to do. It just felt so. Insurmountable. So Katie retreated I holding up in her apartment and then eventually she resigned recede in Congress. To my family, my friends, my staff, my colleagues, my mentors to everyone who has supported and believed in me I am so so sorry. and to every little girl who looked up to me. I hope that one day you can forgive me. It's been a year now since that all happened it's taken me. You know every bit of time since then to sort of internalized that and try to. figure out how to how to kind of reclaim ownership of myself and my image in and. What that means for me and? It. Just felt like something that I could never get away from. And she still can't get away from it Ju just hours after we talked to her in fact, there was an announcement that Katie story was being turned into a Hollywood movie starring Elizabeth Moss but even then there was this flurry of controversy when someone identifying themselves as Katie's former staff posted a tweet saying how disappointed they were about the movie and and telling people not to glorify. Katie. For, over a year, it's felt to Katie like she can't escape like everything she does simply serves up a new dose of public shame. How do you survive that nagging worry. Every stranger you pass has seen naked pictures of you. How do you go on when your privacy has been violated this way? On this week show. How survive public shaming? After the break, we'll bring on an expert Jon Ronson to talk to Katie about her situation and about how others have gotten past scandals of their own. Stay with. US. Voting this year is trickier than usual and what you don't want to do is be the one sprinting to the mailbox trying to send in a minute vote or to get to the front line at the polls only to realize you're not registered. That's why facebook has created the voting information center whether you want to know how to register how to vote by mail or how to vote safely in person the voting information center can help you find the answers to your questions and make sure your vote is counted because a vote counted is voice heard for official information from election authorities visit facebook, dot com slash voting Info Centre. Honeymoon must my name is Henry. I am Palestinian from Syria. I live with my parents I am divorced with two kids. And he knows what life brings refugee in Lebanon. So does her friend gotTA is? My name is. I am Palestinian and I live in Rehab and I am nineteen years old they both faced significant hurdles in their search for suitable work and so together, they decided to make a big change. Would be selected for the Golden Scissors project. As we saw, it would be the only successful project enabling us to find work in the future. Something concrete on the ground. There gifted seamstresses and want others to develop the same skills, sewing garments and making handicrafts muscle. That teaches unemployed women and girls to earn a livelihood and support themselves and today the cove in nineteen pandemic poses even more financial and health challenges. We couldn't even around we stayed at home hopefully, if the pandemic ends in the Arab world, we will move on with the project should be obtained the financial assistance needed to launch it. Still, honey gotta have laid crucial groundwork in creating golden scissors at this critical time news. In in the community here, a lot of people so. A. Lot of people need to have their garments shorten. Schools and kindergartens need for instance aprons. There is continuous demand it does not stop. There's always demand. The crisis would not put an end to that. No one will live without close. To support the work of organizations like golden scissors visit UNICEF dot org if you can please consider donating. To understand what happened to Katie Hill it's worth deconstructing how most public shaming unfold these days that people who are both famous and and those who aren't. So he turned to Jon Ronson, a British journalist and author in a documentary filmmaker. But I'm here to talk about a book I wrote about Public Shaming. So you've been publicly shamed before we talked about Katie. Situation John wanted to tell us about another story that sort of shows how these public shaming play out the woman in this story felt like most of the world had turned against her overnight her name is Lindsay Stone. She was the lovely person she worked with adults with learning difficulties. She left her job they all left. She took the trip to Washington. DC and she had this sort of Dushi joke that she would share with her lend that they would post on facebook photographs of them doing the opposite to what aside was saying. So they would smoke inventive no-smoking side or or a step on the grass infanticide saying keep off the grass and so on. So they went to Arlington that's Arlington Cemetery where we bury American soldiers. And at the cemetery, there's a sign that says, silence and respect. and. So Lindsey took a jokey photo like she always does. Then he took a to has south attending to shouted flip the. Finger. Put It on facebook. To it just blew up. Backlash this snapshot of a local woman is getting her a lot of heat online and with her employer. This is Kimberly Brooklyn is live in Hyannis with the story. She stayed in every night getting more and more depressed. Anxious. Insomnia shouldn't go out for a year and a half suicide all my gosh. She was alone. She was completely alone. She would sit every night reading every comic. I. Read You some of the comments she. Lindsey stone hates the actually had hate soldiers who died in Foreign Wars you should Rutten Hal just pure evil Jesus and I think I think for people listening it's very easy to say like Oh, we'll just stop reading the comments but for for Lindsey, reading the comments slacker imperative I talked to Monica Lewinsky about this. Once why she found herself region, the comments advised seventy shames people do. She said I guess I was in shock. Maybe there's a twisted need to read the comments as a form of self preservation to be prepared for what may come down the pike like Lindsey Stone Monica Lewinsky. Katie. Hill also read all the comments that people posted online about her tried not to but yet Right, and I do wonder how much of my decision was really impacted by the toll that it on you mentally that you're not even making clear decisions you're making ones that are based on what feels like a survival mandate mate of like how can I keep going through this? How can I? How can I keep facing this every single day? What was the lowest moment for you? Like liquid was this sort of rock bottom moment during that period I was suicidal I I was you know I was drinking wrench of wine by myself and I basically can lock myself in my apartment. During all of this because I didn't feel like I could I could face anybody I was taking a bath and I know I basically had a very close experience with suicide and That was kind of the moment when I when I also knew that this wasn't something that was sustainable for me and I that was kind of what I knew that I. I couldn't keep going with this. When you decided to resign from Congress did that feel like To feel like you had a decision or did it feel like that was the only option? It was a decision but it also. was just a very isolating thing and there were there were these threats they were. They were saying that there were just hundreds of images and text messages and there was a file basically sabotage file that. Haven't gone public yet right just a few images had had come right. So I. Guess That's why it felt like there wasn't. A real option. You know I. IT sounds like now that you're in a place where you are surviving this scandal but. But obviously, your career as a as a congresswoman didn't survive it. Yeah. When you look back. Do. You. Wish you had done anything differently. I. Guess I wish that I had given it more time before I decided to step down like maybe I had. Stepped away for a bit said that I'm GonNa take some time with this But you know the truth is I feel like since I've resigned. and what I've been doing sense in terms of trying to help other women get elected and that I have sort of The. It gives me sort of a clean slate right that it that I know that I took the. You know the the ultimate punishment as it were right actually this happened still sometimes there were. Certain people who like reviewed my book and said, well, you know she doesn't apologize enough during it and I'm like how much more can you apologize like? What more can you ask for the fact that I step down? What do you do when you've already apologized stew when you've already suffered? But still people want more blunt. When it feels like the entire country. Won't ever let you forget what happened. We'll look at another case study in public shaming that might offer some lessons after this quick break. Support for how to comes from facebook. Voting this year is a little trickier than usual in what you don't want to do is the when sprinting to the mailbox trying to send in a last minute votes or get to the front of the line at the polls only to realize you don't have everything you need. And that's why facebook has created the Voting Information Center Whether you want to know how to register to vote by mail or vote safely in person the voting information center can help you find the answers to your questions and make sure that your vote is counted because vote counted is a voice her. For official information from election authorities visit facebook dot com slash voting Info Center. This episode of how to is brought to you by choice, algae a podcast from Charles. Schwab choice zoology is about the forces that affect our decisions from the day-to-day to the life changing, and it's hosted by Wharton Professor Decision Scientists Katie Milkman. Tune into hear her speaking with Nobel laureates bestselling authors, elite athletes, and more about why we do the things we do listen to choice allergy at Schwab dot com slash podcast or wherever you listen. If you like this episode, you might WanNa check out another episode called how to say the right thing at the worst time, which features a woman who lost her brother-in-law Dacoven nineteen and wrote in asking how to comfort her sister from a distance. We turn to a grief therapist who experienced her own tragic loss and learned what to say and what not to say to someone who's Grieving You can find it and all of our episodes by subscribing for free to our podcast. Feed We're back with Katie Hill expert Jon Ronson. John had told us that there's this one particular scandal he studied that reminded him a lot of Katie situation as kind of an extraordinary story because you would think this was a story where somebody would never survive the shaming and not only did Max Moseley survivor not survive with with a plumb. He actually ended up be more popular after his scandal that that. It been for for the person John is talking about Maximo. XLII is a formula, one racing executive in Britain and his scandal happened over a decade ago he wasn't a particularly well known person. But what was most famous about him was his surname because Max Moseley's farther Oswald Moseley's one of Britain's most notorious figures. He was the head of the British Union of Fascists. Hitler went. A Moseley's wetting into Max's son. Yes Max Moseley his son and at first he did pretty well and. unshackling shuttling himself of the scandalous name. So all was fine in Max Moseley's life until. March two, thousand eight, he went to the new stand out on the front cover of the news of the world was a headline. Formula One boss Max Moseley has sick sick nutsy orgy with five focus. So somebody had secretly filmed Max Moseley. A in the words of the news of the world romping with Five Hawkins added craved Nazi style orgeon a torture Dungeon Oh my gosh. Yes this is Kinda rough have you would think given given his family history This was like a slam dunk for the news, the world but then something happened firstly, he thought. Everybody knows sex's weird. At a second thought was. That the tomato fatal mistake because while the orgy was definitely German tinged, they were wearing. Uniforms it wasn't that he. Was No swastikas. So, Maqsoud the needs of the world. And the news of the World Sparrow stays at editors were forced to go through every frame of the video footage and there was nothing Nazi. Whatsoever, and he ends up winning the suit and in coming out of this like more popular than ever before more more popular than after he became a kind of hero for taking on the bullies of the tabloids and yeah refusing to refusing to be shamed our shame worldliness lies in the space between who we are and how we present ourselves to the world. The Soon Max Moseley said, Yep that's me. That's me and there's photographs I did I feel in this last shamed about it he narrowed the gap. Why did Max survive when? So many other people don't survive what were the ingredients. One of them I think that he just he refused to feel ashamed. So if we go just by Max, Moseley playbook are first rule for surviving a scandal could be this refused to feel ashamed. But of course, that's much easier. Said than done and it can be really complicated because just figuring out if you ought to feel ashamed is sometimes really hard especially when you're in the middle of something like this. And I want to make clear. Katie we are not comparing you to maximum. Non. Nazi. German theme or jeans. But. But it it does seem like there's there's an echo. Of what you went through of someone taking private photos and making them public yes. So similar thing, right. When you hear that story Katie what do you think it's absolutely accurate if you refuse to be shamed than. Or you refuse to be ashamed than you can't really be shamed and I think there's a part of it that has to do with. Do you feel guilty about whatever it is that has happened and I often think about that in terms of whether. If I hadn't had this relationship that was with somebody that. Had worked on my team, and if there wasn't this power dynamic element to it, then you know what? I've felt any shame at all and I'd like to thank the answer would be no but I don't know I mean, I. Yeah I think part of my comeback as it were is trying to own that and say, no, I'm not going to be ashamed of this. This is a relationship that I had that I at the time did not feel was problematic and the fact that it's seen as a problem is not coming from the somebody who felt like a victim but as somebody from somebody who was, vindictive and somebody who is trying to make a problem. Zoo to make sure I, understand what you're saying. It's because the the relationship you had with someone who is working on your campaign and so so there were these questions about wizard appropriate for you as her boss to be in a relationship with her and that that gave you a little bit of a feeling of of maybe there is something shameful. May maybe they're right in some corn after mind and that makes it harder to say you know what I didn't do anything, wrong yeah. A few guys. Yeah it John, what do you think about that? I, mean it's a lot easier to say I am not going to feel ashamed I'm not going to let this get to me than to actually do it. The takes an enormous strength of character to transcend the massive amount of humiliation. You'll feel when making photographs. So suddenly all over the place, it does take it takes a lot. To to get over it, which is you know a reason why it's so impressive that. Katie's responding the way that she says because, of course. For most people you an outline, you're like an outline in a crime scene now. Filling in the outline with with with nuance and humanity and so. This is another lesson. When we bring nuance to a situation when we help people see us as a real person rather than some object of scandal. That's at least some small way of reclaiming who we are. That's one of the reasons why Katie decided to write a book to let people know who she is beyond those photos or what they might have heard. But of course, Katie faces a challenge the Max Moseley never did. She's a woman. Most people who who serve just refuse to be shamed or refuse to to bow to any kind of scandal they they are men. I mean I'm a hard time thinking of. Of A, a woman part of me wonders how much of that is that men are You know there's a there's an amount of confidence of we belong in these positions of power where women are. New to it and are therefore we we have this we deal with imposter syndrome on a day-to-day basis anyway, and so when something like this happens, then you do face this question of like Welsh maybe I shouldn't have been here in the first place. Backs this up. Political scientists have found that women are more harshly punished for any kind of perceived a real unethical behavior much more. So than men, there's a real double standard in society particularly when there's a scandalous rumor that's floating. Jump let me ask if you had if you had known Katie while she was going through this and had been her her adviser. Based on on all the research you've done and how much you thought about this. What would you have been telling her to do in the days and weeks after those photos appeared I a million. Impressed with how Is the woman who's been in a similar situation who survived into similar way and the office woman? Comes into my head is Monica Lewinsky she was ridiculed and nobody was blaming Clinton everybody was bay was blaming. Monica and it was all bizarre today an objectification because the factors of the root of your situation was a was a consensual sex scandal. You victim revenge porn, and as I say, if you're a man, a man would would survive. Kitty. Let me ask. Let's John had been with you when this news first broke and he said look, here's my advice. Do it Max Moseley did go out there and say, yeah, you know what? Those are photos of me I I'm a bisexual woman who's in a consensual relationship with with the woman and with my husband and I have nothing to be ashamed of let's I don't know I don't understand what you guys are talking about. Yeah I do think you could have done that. You know it's interesting because I think that was the piece of advice that I never got right. That was the of just basically saying don't apologize and and just say you know. Just to say, this is what it is and I'm not sorry. I think that's the piece in and again I can't help. But wonder how much of it has to do with the timing You know like I had been I had been one of the people who called for Al Franken's resignation and I'd been one of the people who was very outspoken about how we need to hold people to the same standards within our own party is the other can LASCO could ask the question? Given. Everything that you've been through. Acted. Differently about the Franken situation I think it's possible. I waited a little while on Al Franken and I think the part that moved me with him was that there were so many women who are coming forward. You know when you when you have that much of a pattern, it's hard to to dispute. But yeah. I do think it's possible that I would have said that it needs to that. Maybe resignation wasn't wasn't the only option and that perhaps more of A. A genuine apology in an attempt to make amends is the appropriate response because I think that since this all is so so For us just in general in terms of asking for men to to be accountable for these kinds of things. That yeah, I'd perhaps I did jump jump the gun with that. Here's our next big idea. If you're living through a personal scandal that can be helpful and and really healing to point out when they're sacristy to point out how society is treating you differently because you're a woman how other people even presidents have been let off the hook for far worse. But in that same spirit. Sometimes that means we also have to acknowledge our own hypocrisy. Acknowledged that in the wake of having gone through something awful ourselves. We realized that we might have judged too harshly in the past. Or that we didn't look closely enough for their nuances. Because I guess that's the other concern is that if you don't feel guilt or remorse her or questioning yourself and at least a little bit than. What does that make you so I. Don't I don't know that there's a right answer, but I do know that. No one no matter what you've done deserves. This. Level of public shaming that has become fairly normal. What reason public shaming went out of fashion in the eighteen fifties in public punishments without Lords. As as far as I could tell from confer the archives. was. The Great American thinkers of the time like Benjamin rush arguing that they would too brutal. You know I found A. Woman. Who was being publicly went for adultery. She was pleading with the judge to change her sentence at it was for her to be whipped in private. and. Public. So it is it is worthy of thoughts that we are routinely doing something these days that was stopped for being too brutal in the eighteen fifties. The thing is. If you genuinely feel like you've done something wrong. You should apologize and you should make amends. But with John is saying is there's a better way to achieve justice than intense public shaming. Let, me ask Katie. What advice would you give if a if a woman came to and said, you know I'm I'm going through something similar and I have all my crisis consultants I I know what to do for outward facing you know Pr. But like I feel suicidal I feel terrible I feel so guilty and so self-loathing. What advice would you give her about how to survive this? Say you're not alone but you need to have somebody there with you. That's to me the key is that you need you literally need a best friend or a family member WHO's going to be with you constantly and just love you no matter what. Did you have that I did and if you know if I hadn't I don't I don't know what I would have done. A tell you that a lot of shame people do to get better. They reach out to other shamed people. It's true. Monica Lewinsky to me and that was a huge help for me. Right wooded Monica tell you stay strong. You'll get through it and you're not alone and you know I I feel like I tried to pass that forward to. When Andrew Gillum had his scandal a respect to him and he's become a friend since then there's just there's not a ton of people who have been through something similar. And you really do look for support. Here's the last thing. Lean on other people not just your support system but those who have been through similar situations who will understand what you're going through and how the public's response often outlast the scandal itself. And when you see someone else hurting. Reach out to them. Let them know that they aren't alone. Because at the end of the day, we help other people and ourselves by using empathy overcome. Shame. And that goes for all of us even those of us who are just bystanders skulking at a scandal as it unfolds. We should try to be empathetic to. which. Sometimes means not piling on using to participate in the shaming. We've been talking about how to survive a scandal as if that burden exists on the person who's at the center of the scandal. But maybe the real answer is how to survive a scandal is that the rest of US stop looking at the photos that we stopped going on social media and kind of gleefully taking joy in someone else's embarrassment and shame. It's completely understandable why a bunch of people on social media thought we can better the actual justice system particularly when it comes to sexual assault where the real justice system is so powerless. Unfortunately With our new type of justice bought an awful lot of problems. So I think really the way to get beyond this is for shameless to be thinking twice about their actions to be may be waiting a few days because. So frequently a couple of days after we've told somebody to shreds new information comes out which makes us realize that we got it all wrong or maybe the as Katie's case, the story was significantly more nuanced than a richly stained some mile by best advice for critical world shavings. Better. Horrific is for people to just wait to just be patient and curious and hear more about the person at the heart of the transgression rather than. Fail buoyed by administering instant call judgment. Katie, how are you doing now is it's been a year since we're suicide with something that you are seriously contemplating. How do you feel mentally now? Thank you I feel really good. To be honest with you, I it's just been such a traumatizing year generally, but I guess one of the things is it's brought me closer to my family and it's made me really appreciate life and how short it is and how. It's not. One thing that defines you that you. You get to make meaning every single day and You know that's something that I plan on working on. Thank you Katie Hill for sharing her story with us. You should look for her book she will rise and thank you to Jon Ronson for sharing his research. His fascinating book is named so you've been publicly shamed. And we also wanted to know if you or anyone you know are in crisis or having thoughts of suicide or need help immediately. You can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. At one eight, hundred, two, seven, three, talk that's one, eight, hundred, two, seven, three, eight, two, five, five or you can find help at suicide prevention lifeline dot org. Are you trying to deal with something that's happened in your past. So you should send us a note at how to its DOT COM or leave us a voicemail at six, four, six, four, nine, five, four, zero, zero, one. How To's executive producer is Derek John Rachel Allen and Rosemary Belsen produce the show in March Jacob is our engineer. Our theme music is by Hannah's Brown. June Thomas is senior managing producer unleashed gumri is executive producer of sleep podcasts. Gabriel Roth is slates editorial director of audio. I'm Charles Duhig. Thanks for listening. This episode of how to was brought to you by. Orion. America's favorite FRY. When you're picky kids caused dinnertime dilemmas, don't despair instead used potato pay. It's simple when your kids balk at Broccoli or Chafe at Chard offering a bribe, they eat their Greens and you serve them a helping of delicious arise fries. GO TO TRY POTATO PAY DOT COM and learn how to bribe your kids with writer the Golden Crispy fries that kids love.
1994 Was F1s Most Consequential Year
"I've got my valvoline hat on right. Now that can mean only one thing and that's valvoline has sponsored this episode of pass gas. Thank you very much valvoline. You know. I love valvoline. I've got it in my car. You should have it in yours to valvoline easy original motor oil. Not only were they the first patented motor oil brand. They've also had a few. I in the industry outright. They've got the first high mileage oil. They made the first synthetic blend oil and the very first racing oil. How's that for heritage. Guess what they've never stopped innovating they're constantly reinventing formulas to provide the ultimate protection for every engine on the road today. In fact every motor oil valvoline makes has been recently reformulated to provide forty percent better wear protection than industry standards forty percent better. Is there anything you can say. you do. Forty percent better than industry standards. Yeah i thought so. But all of valvoline oils exceed that. 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A lot can go wrong in a single year locked in change for worse but also for the better more often than not. It's the most difficult years that shape us. The most the years that wound us before healing and turning into scarves with proud to have survived for formula. One that year was nineteen ninety-four in many ways. Nineteen ninety-four is perhaps the most important year in f one history. It was a season of endings including for our prostitute declined to return to the league after winning the year before was also the season of beginnings michael schumacher had his first year of greatness at benetton. A run though set the stage for a decade of dominance it was also a season tragic endings and the loss of a legend. So much happened all amidst an unprecedented atmosphere of political intrigue paranoia and drama down pass gas formula one's defining moment the nineteen ninety-four season. What makes it the most heart wrenching an important year in f one who were the heroes and who are the villains. We're giving you the entire wild story. One of chaos and conviction victory and defeat life strife and even death set your pass gas time machines the nineteen ninety four f one just ban traction control so it's gonna be a bumpy ride going to be a slippery slippery we're going to be slipping sliding all over that trek. We ain't gonna have no assistance from the call at all. Scoot scoot scoot and welcome to pass gas. Everyone i'm your host nolan. Sykes joined as always by my co hosts. The lovely james. Plum's pump frey j mid jimmy plumes and chuckling joe weber. Keep it jus. I love jimmy plums by the way. Good jimmy plums nassau effluent fan drop top nascar as as we mentioned. Yeah talking about efren again today. One of my favorite subjects Long an podcast. You want to podcast dedicated one hundred percent two f one. Let us know. Let us know we're crazy enough work to do it. you know. we'll we're crazy man. And i liked that about us. Do about us man. We're crazy. yeah around and find out you want us to do have one by guest. Careful what you wish for. You know the difference between us and you we make us look good to get me one of these. I'm in a weird mood right now. Because i found a human femur yesterday and from a detective that it is human no sites dude you may have cracked a cold case. You're gonna call the cops. I know so right after taping. I have to call the cops and have them come pick it up and he could've took that up praised that on bone broth cristiani god. Well what a start to the episode We've got a possible crime cold case being solved Yeah i'm gonna try to clock before. I send it off to the detectors. You're gonna do your own investigation. Yeah i was gonna make a snitch. Get stitches joke. But i think it's a i think it's one hundred percent of good idea that you call the police in this instance. I hope i don't get in trouble for them. Suitor if you find human remains we pass gas one hundred percents leading the proper authorities. No absolutely. don't keep human remains a secret because then if someone else finds them they'll be like why are you keeping this a secret. Yeah near fingerprints off from an all. You're left with his clout because you got a lot on your instagram today. We are talking about formula one different different episode. I'm very excited. Because now we're focusing. On a singular year you know going depth yeah hundred sixty five day period where leisurely israel. Not the forest zooming in right where it hurts. I think I think our ken carter episode is perhaps maybe the most like oh no bertha benz episode is probably like the short on time examined in an episode of like sixty hours. Or something right or something like that hours Usually we do a very wide scope kind of look at stuff but taking the pairs short. That's all that was was was like six months. One of my fans in the dm's told me that there was Reenactment of peaking paris and they filmed it all and he's going to send me the dvd. Well thank you for sending joe the dvd without further do. I think it's time to get into it before. The one thousand nine hundred ninety four season even started there was a widespread understanding that it would be a year of great change in the sport borne out of the pressure to modernize increased competition from other motorsport events and the increasing conflict between the f. One teams in the federation internationale. They beated or the f. A. f. ones sanctioning body. The one thousand nine hundred eighty canadian grand prix highlighted the biggest problem brewing for the next season dubbed the illicit grand prix. It was a moment when the faa pulled the equivalent of an exasperated teacher. Sending the entire class to the principal's office before the race began. Charlie whiting. Fia's chief scrutineer sure. He's so fun. I scrutinize scrutinized. He announced the race steward that all electric driver aids including active suspension and traction control. Were now a legal. This meant that twenty four out of twenty six teams all the cars except those ferrari were theoretically disqualified from the race. And of course Rest in peace charlie whiting. He passed away last year very sad moment for the sport i would that be twenty four out of twenty six cars. Twenty six teams would mean. There's like forty fifty two drivers just just to clarify for the audience. All of the cars. Except the ferraris were theoretically disqualified from the race. The ruling understandably led to massive confusion since the beginning of the nineteen ninety-three season f. I had lobbied to ban the systems but such a move would require the approval of the f. One teams teams that had spent millions and millions of dollars developing said technology were understandably reluctant to give it up if this were a chess game between the f one teams in the faa. The fbi had just flipped the board and walked away. That's like that's like if the nba said you couldn't wear shorts your genes now. I kinda shows how far the faa has kind of calm in the past thirty years. I don't think you'd see this sort of huge rule. Change in the middle of the season or even near the end of the season nowadays But understandably i can see where the the moniker of the ferrari. Assistance association comes from Adds into that. You gotta questioned the motivation behind it. Like why it's it's almost the end of the season. Just do it next season. Yeah very strange. Very strange in the end the decision was walked back in the canadian grand prix was still raced but it was an early tremor in the earthquake that would be the nineteen ninety four season. The faa was insistent on changes in the sport. Mostly due to growing chorus of grumbling that f one was becoming too predictable with the rich teams especially dominating a that's very learn what's going on right now. I think this guy we We recorded this the week after the first race of the season Red bull of course finished right behind. Mercedes mac finished within a second of lewis hamilton. I think the season's going to be good. Knock on wood but yeah this. This is the kind of thing is like. It's a hard thing for the formula one to balance. You know it's it's a it's a sport. That is the pinnacle of motor sports. So much money goes into engineering. And that's part of why it's cool but the end result is you got rich. Teams poor teams. The rich teams are gonna win. That's just the nature of the sport. That's of all sports though. Like especially baseball and i don't know basketball too well but i'm assuming it's basketball had a budget cap right. Yes so basketball. However much money they make with in the nba fifty percent goes of it goes to like owners and the league and then fifty percent goes to the players so the more money that the nba can make the more money. The players are eligible to make and none of that goes toward buying basketball's what to bring their own balls. Oh my god. Yeah so well now. Nowadays like with f one. They instituted sort of a salary. Cap if you will and a cap on engineering. I think it's like one hundred fifty five million and it's going to be going down ten percent every year for five years which will hopefully bring Make it more appealing for smaller teams. So we have a more even competition going forward. What what team would you like to see. Takeover is williams still dropping out or are they in their still in. I would like to see williams returned to form. I think as we'll see in this episode williams was once a very dominant team dominating. There's a great documentary about williams. I think it's called williams. Yeah check that out Made me cry on an airplane. I want all. I like. I really want. I want competition to be super close like i want. I want to see a different winner every weekend. Kind of like how you see in indycar nascar every race. This season so far has had a different winner which is awesome. I think i just feel like racing is the only sport where even fans of the sport like. Don't love domination. It like i feel like if Like a football team or basketball team is just destroying everybody. Even if you're not a fan of that team you're kind of like do the lakers this year or insane we still have these talks about like the best like we want to be there for the best team ever like. Aw i like member the night like the ninety. Six bullets like the bulls in the nineties. You i was there. I saw them play. Even if you're not a bulls fan or like a fighter. You don't wanna fighter that loses. You want an undefeated fighter so like what is it about racing all racing that like everyone's like we'll just want it to be fair. I think it is the money like it. Money translates into technology which translates into speed. And i think when a team is playing really well together no matter how much money throw it like. You can't make people work together. Well so it's like and then. Boxing is just one person. And it's like you know that they trained that good. Yeah and i guess there is like the driver aspect but i think it is just the money behind them. That really makes it kind of unfair. Well also to that. To that point joe i think like a team sport you know. They have like thousands of people on their team. Working engine nears. All you know all the way down to just like office administrators. You don't see that on the track you don't see those thousands of people. Yes like with us with a basketball game you. Do you see all the players on the court like the guys that are sitting the bench. You see the bench right there yeah And you see them switching out you know f one is that like Toto wolff said in drive to survive like they have more people on holiday than haas has in you know working at one time like Just the amount of human resource that they are able to throw it whether it's like re research and development or you know like i think it is just like money at the end of the day for sure and that's why that budget cap is coming in and it's not like people are going to get fired because of this budget tap like ferrari is now shifting a lot of their employees to both indycar indycar development. I think is like people getting transferred to the formerly division. So it's not like they're gonna get fired. They're just getting transferred to other other sports james. I'm sorry Continue this was a big part. Of the reason why f-. I decided to ban active suspension expensive technology that gave bigger teams in edge but much like nolan's forehead was an interesting wrinkle to that general rule. Ferrari the one team. That didn't get disqualified in canada was also the team with arguably the greatest amount of influence over the faa. They had neglected to develop the driver aids to the extent of the other teams. So this regulatory change would also be to their benefit to date for our is still the oldest and most iconic name in f one and that comes with cloud that was definitely play around nineteen ninety-four follow the money people. Oh the money. Leading the charge to bring formula one into a new era was a brit by the name of max. Moseley moseley was a colorful character. Put lightly His father had been sir. Oswald moseley the former leader of the british union of fascists nuns rights as in niche. Supporting hitler type fascists moseley. He would eventually distance himself from his father's political affiliations building a career as a race car driver and reaching the formula to level where he was known as a quote thinking driver which meant that. He wasn't quite that fast but he didn't crash much either moseley had replaced. John murray bella stray but fallen out of favor after a series of controversies where he showed an apparent bias in favor of fellow frenchman. Alain prost Listen to our senate series for more on that. The that's one of the most infuriating parts about the senate documentary is watching that dude on screen just like losing corruption by nineteen ninety-four moseley felt. He had a clear mission in his own words. Quote changes had to be made f. One was in a nosedive of escalating costs and declining spectacle. Moseley was also critical of traction control. Systems calling them quote extremely dangerous and unpredictable. Chess-like my toy so traction traction control excuse me was to be banned for the nineteen ninety four season as well as abs. Or antilock braking systems which you know what i support this decision i think race cars open wheel racecars anyway. Should you know should be drivers. Traction controls you know. That's what it is the vfw traction control your foot is a bs and your right foot is tc. That's what it is. That's how it's gotta be usage purist dude such appears. You're such a curmudgeon. that's me man. Now he's a he after the other dude passed away. He's the lead certain eiser. The lead scrutinize her nolan. You're such a chief. Scrutinized did hey aside from regulations it would also be a rebuilding year for f one as far as driving talent. Does nigel mansell the nineteen ninety-two champion. Had left formula one race. Indy cars as we mentioned in the intro alum processed the nineteen ninety-three champion had chosen to retire outright than to stay on williams as senate as senators. Teammate mansell's departure. In particular strong he was joining. F one legends. Mario andretti and emerson. Fittipaldi over indycar. Which was having a bit of a moment here. In the united states the departures also met that ayrton senna was the only driver on the f. one roster a world champion title to his name for comparison sake this year. I think there's i think there's five drivers on the grid that are world champions got hamilton Hamilton writing in alonzo. And there's one more i think. Grow john niagara. Maybe it's just for this year. You like there's five well it's it's it's it's escape from me. So here's kareem. That's what you're trying to save a lot of champions compared to the talent spread across the the the grid as opposed to this to nineteen ninety-four anyway for his part senate supported the mechanical changes. The f. i was pushing for he preferred to have as much control over his car as possible however he'd later become critical of the f. i. Taking issue with the elimination of technical aids but with what he perceived to be the failure of the regulatory body terrain in the speed and power of the cars to compensate for the fact that there are now more difficult to drive valid concern. Yeah and as we'll see later He would prove you'll be proven to be right. I believe beyond that senna had reason to be frustrated. Many suspected the intent behind some of the changes was to even the playing field by punishing senna's williams team for example. Another decision for nineteen ninety-four was the ban on the continuously variable transmission or the cvt a bit odd considering no f. One team was yet running such a system. Williams however had spent years developing cvt technology in the hopes of one day running it in their car so it was a preemptive decision that specifically harmed only one team that have been really interesting if they were running. Cbt's enough one teas are actually really cool Just kind of sucks that they kind of suck at the time like c does not have any gears a system of police a system of clutches and police that It continuously changes the ratio between the drive side and the the Like i guess Like the there's one attached the engine one. Polio attached the engine attached to like the drive line drive wine. I guess you would say and it's constantly finding the optimal quote unquote gear ratio for the rpm of the engine to optimize acceleration. And then later on just power. It'd be it would be like completely within reason to stay within the peak power band. Oh yeah yeah. Tell me the entire race. Senator won't even have to shift. That's all thing. Yes like he could just focus on the lines and breaking and that's it early. Production cars acted as advertise. They wouldn't shift at all but people thought they felt really. We're here as you'd just be like your engine like you'd give it a lot of gas and the rest would be going up and it would just stay going up. Basically just really weird. So they added like kind of deers into their and shifting just to make people feel like it was traditional and that. just kinda sucks So yeah and the cheaper ones. Don't really work that well like. I have one in my subaru. And i can already feel it slipping a little bit and it's less than three years old and that's like a common complaint with. Oh yeah that's a big issue in these cars. Yeah yes anyway yet. Another change to the rules was the reintroduction of refueling during races which had been banned a decade earlier again. Max moseley was at the center of this decision. He worried that indycar which was experiencing a boom in the early nineties was increasingly threatening. F one's popularity and decided to copy. What was working for indycar. A big piece of that being the drama of refilling pitstops moseley also opted to add safety cars and stop go penalties as well both features of indycar racing if williams was the biggest loser from the changes. Scooter ferrari was by far the biggest winner in addition to benefiting from driver aid bands. Since there's weren't up to par a return to mid race. Refuelling would also benefit the italian team since their v twelve engines were less fuel efficient than the vitanza. v8's of their competitors if everyone had to reveal fill efficiency was less of a factor in their strategy. Scuderi ferrari needed all the help. They could get. The team was during the longest drought in their history of the program. Having not recorded a win since the nineteen ninety spanish grand prix however it wasn't williams or ferrari. That would become the top story in nineteen ninety-four instead it was a cosworth-powered benton and they're young german driver michael schumacher who would make the biggest splash when the season got underway but not without causing a tidal wave of controversy to go along with their unexpected success. Time to make a splash. Max moseley started the nineteen ninety four f one season with a warning the consequences for any team on drive of found to be cheating. Would it be mind blowing. Can't believe that's an actual quote despite the dire warning. There still wasn't complete clarity on what the rules were. Teams believed that the guidelines were basically unenforceable. Because of how vague. They were for instance. The rules now read quote. The driver must drive the car alone and unaided. But what did that mean doesn't a steering wheel driving the car. for instance. nobody really knew many felt that the faa kept the guidelines vague on purpose vague language allowed their officials greater latitude in determining what aides were against the rules. Adding to the confusion was that f one cars were now. Computers on wheels gone were the days of a physical inspection yielding clear answers. The cars of modern f one could find ways to cheat with invisible strings of zeros and once many teams chose to disable parts of their software instead of completely rewriting their code. This increase suspicions over whether teams were really abiding by the ban on drivers aides or employing. Some sort of trickery to gain an advantage the gray cloud of paranoia darkened the mood in the f one paddock with many of the teams becoming convinced. That other teams were cheating. Even if they couldn't prove it did all of this is just like. I'm like a lakers fan. Or whatever so like whatever so in plays the lakers. They can't wear shorts perfect analogy. Yeah wear jeans or khakis or slashed corduroy pants. That's why all the game soundly for yet we're gonna take it from. Scratch center player is like on fire. They'd literally be on fire. Because well chafed player get did playing a game in like the hot in the heat of summer in jeans. Yes i would love to see a basketball game. Where one of the teams gets the of regular uniforms and cheese and stuff and the other team has to wear slacks and loafers and like a turtleneck. I feel like that's drake's like if drake was playing basketball or Tired of creators playing basketball is there has to eat one of those hot chips. We'll get back to more past right now over from our sponsors. I just want to tell you again about our sponsor this week. It's valvoline motor oil. You know the drill. You heard me before. Valvoline is the original motor oil there. 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All you have to visit get sunday dot com slash passed to get twenty dollars off your custom lawn plan at checkout. That's twenty dollars off your custom plan at get sunday dot com slash past. Thank you sunday. As the season began everyone expected ayrton senna to dominate williams was considered to have the strongest car at least before the rule changes although santa's rival elaine prost had made headlines by flirting with a comeback on team. I don't know maybe we know maybe we just saw i do. Maybe i stick. Maybe i pull it out. That was from an interview that was audio from an interview that we licensed and paid for but ultimately Prost he decided not to come back. It was unclear who sent his rival would be at the top or if he would have won enter benetton an f one team that had been founded in nineteen eighty six after the existing team had been sold to the benetton family famous and fantastically rich as a result of their famous global chain of clothing stores inside that real block. He different fall clothes from the nineties And they also make steering wheels. That looked like that too. Well like benneton steering wheel like all the all the harlequin golf guys get say. The harlequin make sense. James has won every single every single one. I mean i've been looking up a benetton. Jackets on oetzi benetton school. Yeah so far. The team had experienced more rags than riches. Although they had signed the promising driver michael schumacher in nineteen ninety-one. There be one ninety. Three was inferior to the top williams car and they ended that season as the fourth ranked team however the team's leadership had made a smart strategic gamble focusing the majority of their efforts during nineteen ninety-three on readying their nineteen ninety-four car. The b one nine. Four cars designed had anticipated the ban on drivers aids and was optimized to perform without them as the season began. It quickly became clear that the be one ninety four development was a smart strategic decision that promised to pay off for benneton. Preseason testing was held. At a mola a track that would a central role in the drama of nineteen ninety-four. Yeah there's a bunch of different colors named after imola got milorad imola yellow. A bunch to benetton's car performed well very well. In fact of course this wasn't simply accepted by the other. F one teams suspicions emerged around schumacher's performance. There were some clues however that pointed towards a conclusion the other f one teams would dread making that schumacher was simply an amazing driver in a strong car. This all you need in tons of talent and perfect equipment. There's a bunch of different things you need to win fast driver good. Yup i among the clues was the struggles of the other bennington drivers to succeed on the track. Jared leto dad driver. Jay leno it stands for jared jared jared jared leto actually crashed the be when ninety four in preseason testing at silverstone. He's they replaced by joss verstappen. Father of maximum step in at the first race in brazil. Joss verstappen was a test driver for benetton. Brazil would be his debut f one race even before entering the league. He'd only had about half as much racing experience as many other drivers did when they were rookies. Adding to the trying circumstances nineteen ninety four f. One cars stripped of their drivers. Aides were harder drive than they had been in years as for stopping was trying to pass jordan driver. Eddie irvine on the left. His car went into the grass causing it to skid wide across the track somersaulting has impacted three other drivers. It was a spectacular crash. That verstappen was lucky to walk away from in his own. Words specially built to meet schumacher specific requirements and unfortunately proved difficult to keep the car on track. How how's it was very difficult to keep it on. Do see me somersault. How many times that like forever. I mean how strange it is the tables turn and all the sudden max's son. The red bull is kinda tailoring their car for max's driving style and turns out hard to drive. Yeah not a lot of number. Two drivers sticking around for long can keep that seat this year. i think this is urging right. Sergio did great this weekend. I'm super stoked. Despite the crash a major pile up in the opening race of the season there was a certain feeling of untouchability floating around f. One nine hundred ninety four there hadn't been a fatal on-track accident in an f one grand prix in twelve years. Still some within f. one including ayrton senna were worried. That confidence was curling into arrogance. And then recklessness cena and others knew that good luck was a coins edge away from bat. Whoa to f wants critics who is only a matter of time back. In brazil senna had captured pole position at interlagos recalling the memorable stretch from nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety one where he recorded the fastest qualifying lap every single year this year however it was by a single beautiful thick curly hair on the brazilian said he was only three tenths of a second faster than schumacher. On sunday the race turned into a duel between schumacher and senna at lap. Twenty one both drivers refueled but benetton had a faster pit giving schumacher the lead. Senna slowly closed in on the benneton car straining limitations with his signature aggression in the end. It was too much for the williams car to handle and senna spun out on the fifty six lap in front of disappointed home-country crowd. It was an incredible way for schumacher to establish himself for the season beating senna at home in brazil while at the same time giving benneton an over. The number one seeded team in williams. That is huge upset. Dared wants to be humiliated in their home country. Yeah yeah it's like if you go took cleveland and you knew lebron are wearing jeans and loafers and you just smoking basketball wait you go with lebron you both his hometown his hometown. But you win. Yeah you smoke him. Yeah because center was at his hometown but you win in cleveland. Beating lebron list. Oh so you're playing against him. Seem like what. I'm one against lebron. You're both wearing jeans and loafers and which is what we establish the hardest thing to play thing the but what's what's the top though. What are you wearing on tarlac. Okay the next race. Was the pacific grand prix held on the ti circuit in ida japan as the travelling circus of reached the island nation. Suspicion amongst the teams only heightened apart from questions about benetton. Many were saying that something was too good about ferrari's cars response to complaints the f. I deployed sound measuring equipment during practice. They noted that ferrari's car was using some sort of traction aid but before the officials could bring the matter. To ferrari ferrari approached the officials and came clean other teams were suspicious that someone within the faa had tipped off ferrari adding to the suspicions for our driver. Nikola larini accidentally told the italian press that he had used traction control while practicing. Although ferrari quickly walked back on. The remarks wasn't exactly a great look. I use traction control. I mean a steering wheel for the second race in a row. Senna won pole position. The advantage didn't last long however on race day schumacher bodied passed him on the very first corner. Things only got worse for senate from there as mika hakkinen driving for mclaren slammed into the brazilian from behind ending the race for both of them. Senna was livid. Instead of returning to the pits he stood at the track and listen to the cars driving by listening for sounds that could indicate tracking control being used. It was especially focused on schumacher. He never made his concerns public. But it was clear. That he didn't believe schumacher could beat him on talent alone. He privately shared that he had heard. Sounds coming from the benneton car turns out he was just listening to shaggy an antibiotic fam- mooney their traction control. Sounds a lot like an american doing jamaican accent. It renewed hanks it's either chinese. Shaggy schumacher's defenders argue that senate could have been hearing schumacher's semi-automatic gearbox since schumacher was an early acolyte of left foot braking he would regularly keep about fifteen percent throttle on even while breaking minimizing the shift and balance from the throttle fully shutting off. He's trail braking somewhat to this day. Nobody can say for sure are the most ninety s f. One fans will have an opinion. One way or the other as i can guess or can probably tell the probably very strongly opinionated on that what do you think no. I don't. I don't know enough about this era. You know you gotta learn. No one was born three years before this. I was one year before the season Ninety three well ninety three Either way schumacher cruised to a dominant victory. Japan leading for all eighty three laps of the race afterwards senate continued to fume accusing mika hakkinen of purposely colliding with them an allegation that he later apologized for always good to him. I'm so you know he's sorry. Me i got gotta headed back. They're hacking in wasn't the driver. Senate had to worry about. It was schumacher. Who had the maximum possible amount of points after two races while senna had a goose egg agoo soil goo- f- one was clearly experiencing of wave of bad vibes. But things are about to go from bad to much much worse. Ayrton senna went into san marino determined for his team to catch benetton both from a technical standpoint but proving they were cheating and on the track it was a must win race for senate who had reason to be confident. I mean he had won the race three times in the past. Six years counseling center. Entering a mo- imola was none than his bitter rival for many of those races. Elaine prost and stuff it's like when creed trained iraqi. Yeah are they gonna say when creed trained nickelback process said had a rivalry so bitter that even while they were teammates they had at times refused to speak to each other shake hands or even make eye contact for years. Both drivers especially processed had also tried their best to gain every possible advantage over their rival. Even just once. He's an earlier process stipulated to williams in his contract that senna was not allowed to be his team mate It's so funny. It's like the thing that brought these guys together is when santa was like i. I think i want to now. He i wanna lane is like welcome to my. He's like he's like. I want to become a tatler as you to get the best one then processes like i've been waiting for you to embrace your species. And now the rivalry had evolved into a relationship of mutual respect. After all the two men had much in common for years they had been the two most competitive drivers in an already competitive sport. After years in this sport they also had a shared passion driver advocacy on race day in san marina process recalled quote amid cena on sunday twice domain constant with safety in the fact that he wasn't very happy with this situation thinking that benneton was not illegal pressure was mounting on the brazilian. The press was starting to question whether he'd lost his touch after failing to finish in his first. two races. Bookies had schumacher not senator as a favourite for the first time in the season for driver as intuitive as senator. It couldn't be helping have questions about whether he'd lost his spark occupying his head space. Additionally benton's nimble v eight was seen as a superior car for the narrow imola senna had to put the odds of side or better yet. use them as motivation. Everybody understood that for the brazilian driver. This race was a must win. We'll be right back with more of this story. But i heard from our sponsors support for this. Podcast comes from pay pal. Small business owners. Turn your smartphone into a cash register pay pal. Qr codes or the safe and easy way to get paid in store and they deliver the same security and trust pay pal is known for online in person. Even if you're a cash only business with pay pal. Qr codes you can accept credit or debit with everyday low fees. there's no additional hardware or software needed generate your unique qr code from the paypal app and display it on your device or print it to display in store customers. Scan your code with their pay pal app. You only need your smartphone. Learn more at paypal dot com slash slash get. Qr code this episode is brought to you by mortal combat. Are you ready to fight. On april twenty third. Don't miss the action of the year. When mortal combat the worldwide phenomenon comes to life mortal combat is in theaters on hbo. Max april twenty. Third grade are under seventeen not admitted without garin present. This episode is brought to you by samsung moms help. Everyone be their most app excels. So for mother's day helped mambi. Her most epic with samsung galaxy gifts like their most advanced smartphone camera. So mom can take photos. Like a pro smartwatch with next level fitness tracking. Samsung's earbuds yet to help them block out and turn up or the statement making galaxies the flip five g. Let's mom flex her style this year. Celebrate what makes mom epoch with samsung galaxy. Sometimes there's a calm before a storm but other times there's no calm. Just an evil win. That builds into a cycle of violence and destruction. If you know what happened in san marino in nineteen ninety-four. You probably have a growing pit in your stomach right about now but even if you isolated the events of the f one season in the weeks before the series reached ily. It's clear that something was fundamentally wrong. Within the inner workings of the sport the regulations the technology. The paranoia wafting to the pits. Everything had drifted. Subtly out of alignment a giant machine. Priming itself for disaster. The storm started on fridays practice. Rubens barrichello a twenty one year old driver in his second ever f one season racing for the jordan team lost control catapulting off a curb and hitting a tire barrier before rolling us. Car rubens was from brazil. A countryman of air consent and the older driver had acted as mentor enroll model barrichello's initial impact was measured at ninety. Five g's knocking him unconscious for a long and frightening period his tongue lodged in his throat stopping his breathing and nearly killing him. Oh my god. Luckily medical aid was quick to arrive and barikot. The driver regained consciousness to none other than senna crying over his body in the f. One medical bay got its terrifying. Yeah i track. Senna had the fastest time of the day but it brought him little comfort. He was unhappy with the balance of the w sixteen complaining. Quote the cars worse. You wanted the car to faster which required lowering it. Although is already bottoming out on the track. The next day qualifying continued rookie driver. Roland ratzenberger was attempting to qualify. For a second ever grand prix. He was known as a hard working and friendly driver who had truly worked his way up the ranks to make it to f one driving a simtek. Ratzenberger went slightly off track on a fast lap. The austrian driver wanted only hit the mental reset button and continuous session. He weaved his car onto the track testing for any damage. The minor incident might have caused satisfied with the feel of his car. He neglected to enter the pits and get a full checkup ready to give it another. Go ratzenberger geared up for another fast lap on the fastest section of the track is front wing failed. His car hit a concrete wall at one hundred ninety five miles per hour killing him instantly. This was the first race fatality in twelve years. Form the one the last had been ricardo poletti who died at the one thousand nine hundred canadian grand prix two years before eric insana had even entered f one since then complacency had set in despite the warnings of senna and others an entire generation of drivers and teams had at least on a subconscious level begun to believe that the dangers of the sport had somehow been overcome since the wild and deadly decades of the sixties and seventies race day was an understandably subdued fair. That morning senna had has conversations with alain prost discussing the possibility of restarting the defunct grand prix. Drivers association to advocate for safety changes. This was brought up at the drivers briefing and agreed to buy all with senator gerhard berger and michael schumacher designated to become its initial directors. The camaraderie was set aside for competition. The formula one show how to go on on the warm up. Lap schumacher was driving a slow warm-up pace leading some to theorize pit once senators plan however was to pit twice there was chaos at the start as benetton driver. Jj leto stalled and pedro. Lami for lotus slammed into him from behind eight spectators were injured by flying debris from the crash. I did not know that that's crazy. Instead of the race being paused however the safety car was brought out a concept borrowed from indycar. The problem was that the slow pace of the safety car cooled the f one drivers tires causing them to lose grip. Senate was furious and approach the safety car waving to joe faster but to no avail. This is kind of a common thing still in f one There's a few races last year where hamilton. You'd hear him going on the radio asking them to speed up the safety car. Of course the safety car is normal. Road car Which is hard to hard to reach. F wind speeds around round corners. out is they. Don't wanna lose heaton tires. That's why they do the wiggle right. Yes yes that's why you'll see. Him weaving on straights to keep the jerking the car from left to right to keep the temperature in the tires. As the race began once more senate tried to put distance himself and schumacher figuring he had to get an early lead. If he was gonna hit twice but schumacher had a trick up sleeve. He was not planning a one stop but three stops keeping his car. Extremely light for the start of the race like you. Don't you can go faster if you have less. Feel your way less as schumacher's be one nine four. Kept right behind. The williams driver didn't realize he just had to keep pace instead believing that he had to push super hard to have a chance. Add to the issues. Sentence car was also dangerously low on the track. Bottoming out more than usual. What happened next was one of the greatest tragedies of not just wanna racing but of all of sport on the seventh lap senna failed to make the turn around the tamburello corner of the circuit hitting a wall at the speed of one hundred thirty one miles per hour. He was killed instantly. When examining the wreckage of senators car officials found a rolled up austrian flag. Senna had planned to raise it at the end of the race. Honor roll into ratzenberger. Just hit me hard. Yep i've heard this story so many times i didn't know about the flag part. Yeah is death would not be announced until after the race schumacher went onto win the event giving him three victories in as many races. But nobody was celebrating. Instead of the focus being on the emergence of a potential new superstar in the sport potential that would be born out in the next decade schumacher surpassed both senate and his rival crossed. In terms of pure racing dominance all of focus was not on triumph tragedy. if there's one positive takeaway from san marino bring out major changes in formula one in some sense. It was the awful event that brought the league into a more modern safety conscious era. A major investigation was launched into send his death that continued for over a decade. Only in two thousand seven. Didn't talion court ruled that a steering column failure was at the root of the crash. And that patrick had technical director of williams was liable although the statute of limitations had passed and head was never arrested. Ooh man can you imagine a judge like your fault. Yeah i don't even have anything to say on that wild because it wasn't neglect wasn't like a plan. It's legally you've agonized over for thirteen years. And then they're like okay. Yeah it's definitely your fault. Yeah it's racing at also like i don't know this is like this is a sport where every time you get in the car even at a super level like you are in danger you know that's part of it. I don't know man. That's really rough new oddly. Faa also launched an unrelated investigation in the aftermath of the race. The regulatory body accused the top three finishing cars driven by schumacher larini hackman of using driving aids and demanded their teams hand over the black boxes containing the car source code ferrari immediately complied benetton and mclaren both had external engine suppliers ford and peugeot and these manufacturers protested claiming they were source code in the black boxes which amounted to trade secrets. Analysis was inconclusive. There were suspicious code found on benetton and mclaren boxes but both companies denied that the code was actually implemented. The next race was in monaco. Where senate to. This day is still the winningest driver. In f one history fact that only made his massive absence feel even greater the media swarmed around the paddock. The incident had transcended the sports page to become headline news. Internationally at monaco. The newly formed drivers association was announced with nikki louder and christian fittipaldi named as directors in addition to berger schumacher with their input. Fa made changes to the cars that reduced forest by around fifteen percent for future races engineering changes to the cars were also made to better protect the driver. Still nothing could bring back centre or ratzenberger positions one and two were painted with the brazilian and austrian flag and left empty to pay tribute to the fallen man. I don't understand why reducing downforce would make cars safer. The car won't go as fast. Oh but i wouldn't handle his well either right. Yeah well. I mean you know if you if you reduce downforce are going around turn slower which means you know if they did have a bunch of downforce but then something let go. And they're going around that turn at like one hundred fifty true yeah. Michael schumacher became the driver to be for the remainder of the nineteen ninety four season. His closest competitor was damon hill. Who battled schumacher for the title. The year turned into a duel between the drivers winning all but two of the years sixteen races controversy mounted midseason at the british grand prix as schumacher ignored a black flag penalty for an illegal overtake hill. Leading the team to be fine half a million dollars and schumacher to be banned for two races. Later in the season these disqualifications made it a close race with hill edging schumacher and japan. To bring him within one point of the benetton driver. The season would culminate at the australian grand prix where whichever drivers scored the most points would win the championship. There's one caveat to that which was that. If neither driver scored a point schumacher would win for the season. Schumacher got off to an early lead and lead until lap. Thirty six when hill attempted to pass you macher on the inside. Schumacher turned in on him. Wrecking his car. While hill managed to drive away from the collision his suspension was damaged and he failed to finish the race. The incident made the twenty five year old schumacher an f one champion. The first german driver to win the title. It also made him a villain amongst many. Who believe now without reason that schumacher purposely caused the crash. It was a sorry end to a sad season especially considering that if he would have won for williams it might have provided some sense of redemption after his teammate. Eric incentives death. Yeah that's kind of. I think so said she. Mark is nice all right. Nobody said that schumacher came here to make friends. Okay nobody said that. Now you're right. You know who especially didn't say that michael schumacher all right. I was gonna say. Kevin smith but You know it is kind of bizarre to think that so many people connected with this story have just met such tragedy. John williams paralyzed frank williams. Frank williams is paralyzed then is dead. Schumacher is dead now. schumacher Had an accident skiing about. I would say ten years ago. He's been in a coma forever. It's crazy it's like. They all went to egypt together and brought back. You know what i mean. Yeah a little a little a necklace or something. Mummy tooth i forgot bone hit a he. I got it. From an addition gypsum tomb to we have a year in our lives. That was the hardest and for many of us that your shaped who we are more than any other nineteen ninety-four was f ones hardest year and it forced the sport into a reckoning that shaped its modern era for the better to the driver's associations credit after ratzenberger incentives death. There's only been a single race day. Fatality an f one grand prix of rent jules bianchi and two thousand and fourteen forts jewels. Yes f one is a dangerous sport. That could never be called safe. But without the efforts of santa prostate and yes even schumacher to pressure the faa. It wouldn't have ever become at least a safer sport. Hopefully the cost of change will never be as high as it was that fateful year little epilogue max moseley fascist leader guy. This is a headline from the guardian from Monday july seven two thousand eight moseley denies quote sick nazi orgy but admits secret. Forty five. hit your history of sado masochism. This whole controversy kind of Led to his departure from the faa I like how he gave specific year to like. He knows the year that he started getting into the sim. And he's like yeah. I've been keeping track of it Quotes from the article. Moseley blah blah blah There was rarely a dull moment in a packed court as a sixty eight year old began his to sue the newspaper The news of the world newspaper for exemplary damages after it clandestinely filmed him in march. Half of two thousand eight enjoying what it described as a sick nazi orgy. Moseley maintains the gathering was a private party in quotes and five quote from the article. Like-minded consenting women. There was no public interest in reporting it. let's see here a james price. I think. His attorney said that no evidence that the role plays had any nazi overtones quote. If the newspaper the news of the world was hoping to get pictures of the claiming doing a nazi salute or saying zig heil or dressing in the uniform of a concentration camp. Commandant oh my god. This is a whole other story. I don't even think we can. I'm not gonna read this whole article of course but guys. How do we cast this. How do we how. Let's cash this this this movie. Let's cast it. Christopher walz as max moseley. He's gonna be okay. We already cast is already working on the On another movie that we're pretty. He's already sorry he's double shell store guys guys. Okay okay. i'm listening logan paul. Yes paul and we just make schumacher sort of like a secondary character like that we see like sort of a snow drago kana character. Like he's in the thing but he rarely talks things mysterious. And we really show from senators perspective. He looks schumacher. Sure i could kind of see it all right on that note. Thank you very much for listening to pass this week and every week if you haven't yet tell a friend about the show. I think this is a good episode. I think as an intro. I'm just gonna say right now. I love this one. This is fun. This is a good one nine a lot of fun. Fallen on on instagram and twitter at nolan j sykes follow at joji weber. Follow me at jamestown. Free follow jona at dona media. Dick thanks to hamas are writer and producer. Brigitte editor producer. Take it easy. You know dislike y. Take it hard when you can take it easy. You know you know what. i'm saying. Holla holla about babies and keep it jus to wink wink army.
What is 'Antifa?'
"Did you know GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies? That's fifteen percent on top of what Geico could already save you. So what are you waiting for your teenager to help around the house? Okay, mom I empty the dishwasher vacuum, the basement and folded the sheets out of the dryer. What Oh next I'm GONNA Clean Mittens litterbox in some kind of prank show or something that's a camera is an there's never been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit Geico, dot com for details. Hi I'm Heidi Merck host of what to expect a new podcast from I heart radio when I first wrote what to expect when you're expecting my mission was simple to help parents know what to expect every step of the way on what to expect. We'll answer your biggest pregnancy and parenting questions about everything from preconception planning to birth plans. Newborn sleep toddler tantrums. Motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood, but it can be overwhelming if you don't know what to expect. Listen to what to expect on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. UFO's to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now. or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of IHEART BRETON? Hello, welcome back to the show. My Name is, Matt My name is known they call. Then we are joined as always with our super producers, Paul Mission Control Deck, and as well as Alexis nicknamed to be determined Jackson. Most importantly you are. You are here and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know or at least that's the name we use. When we describe this show today's question starts with first figuring out what what's in a name we know they're powerful currency in the modern media right there. A cognitive shortcut only got so much time on air. If you're a news anchor names can also function as. What's known as a thought terminating cliche this is familiar to long time conspiracy realist and the more we think about this insidious practice of grouping multiple things under one phrase the more often we notice it conspiracy theorists. That's an easy phrase as the example. But then there are things like troopers, for instance, snowflakes or for an historical example, forty niners this is common. This naming practice is common in all walks of life numerous fears of debate. There's one political group that doesn't more than any other. If you're watching the news in the United States, recently, you are aware of a term that is attained a new prominence, all its own. ANTIFA OR ANTIFA? On. Not. On How I think it just depends on where you are when you're seeing it. Perhaps, we're gonNA find out what it means in. You'll realize that all of those kind of work. It's it's funny. 'CAUSE ANTIFA sounds like someone's aunt who's like named Fa you know like short for Faira well, the we're also regardless of how you choose to pronounce it. You're probably aware of just how controversial this term and what it represents can be. It's not a stretch to say there are if we're being diplomatic differing opinions about what Antifa actually is, and we can't even agree how to pronounce it and as we explore these opinions, we quickly find ourselves hip deep in conspiracy but first. Are. The facts. Yeah and so let's just do a little housekeeping with the term here. What does anti actually mean where does the word come from it? To many of us to be a very recent development. At. least here in the United States the term traces back however to Germany in the nineteen thirties the communist party of Germany had a wing called him to do my best here. Auntie fast she S- teasha Oxygen. I'm not perfect but I think that was close. It's there's a lot of repeated sounds in that one. It's as as a double take. And this later became referred to by a much more breathe and punchy word Antifa or of course anti-fascists. Okay so one thing I to hear you guys think about this is entirely. Unfounded opinion. This is not a fact and should be taken as such, but it seems to me if you want to build a lasting movement or rally around some sort of 'cause, it's smarter to make a name that stands for something rather than against it like a good example of this nomenclature would be the two very different names used on others on opposite sides of the abortion debate supporters of abortion are most likely going to describe themselves as pro choice right and opponents would describe themselves as pro-life. They're not antiabortionist by their own description and people aren't necessarily on the pro choice I describing themselves as. Pro Abortion I I don't know there's a marketing power names there. So Lake antifascism starts as what it's against something that already existed right? Yeah. But it's against something that I think most people would typically characterize as bad. Right that's the thing. That's so interesting about this whole debate like wouldn't win an well I. Don't know. Maui detail. I would say I we have to know what fascism is right, and that's another part of this whole thing that that word that term gets thrown around an awful lot and you know it's on us. To learn what that is before we. Are Throwing. Around. If my boss makes me work on a weekend. I. Call that person a fascist. That's appropriate use of that term right? Well, WE'RE GONNA. Find out here in a moment. The big thing is that today when that you know that terminal on tvos thrown around it's really misleading because it's being applied to a ton of different individuals, groups and organizations of even the the tactics that are employed by individuals or groups and you know the idea here is to fight fascism right It is short for Anti Fascism against Fascism so what exactly is fascism right and now now we're in even deeper definitional water, right? Because fascism like Antifa antifascism doesn't really have its own solid solid definition fascism does have a fascinating history. I'M GONNA. Leave. I could see can't leave your already home. Go anywhere but. Season Zoom going we're just GONNA move we'll pretend now no we we roll with this year. They don't want you to know, but it's true. It's an word that comes from something seemingly pretty innocuous an Italian word fashion show referring to a bundle. which in this case would represent a league groups of people. So I think we'll get to this, but it's become negative by association the initial like it wasn't designed to be an inherently negative thing it was designed to be descriptive its origins day all the way back to ancient Rome when the Pharisees was a bundle of wood with an axe head. That was carried by leaders. In Roman. Politics and the fighting fascism today is much more complicated because of the fact that many governments organizations and individuals have been called this. Lobbed around is kind of a term of abuse in post. World War Two. This was often used an insult by opponents or critics of a given movement or government like the way I talk about my boss who loves this show by the way I know I don't mean it. Feels like show we have so many bosses now in. Corporate America, my figurative Bossy guys this is not this is just for the purposes of demonstration here but it was Mussalini. The really got the phrase to kind of catch fire and be associated with what we think of as Fascism today true story, you're right one, thousand, nine, hundred, fifteen, one of the only A. Bad Benz in history there aren't a ton of them Yea. Benito Mussolini. That's where we think of fascism and that's the sort of origin story of modern fascism and when we tried to define it, we see that a lot of people in academia and politics have made their careers based on arguing what the hell this is or is not. Generally speaking it's somewhere between a specific genre of authoritarian government and a set of tactics deployed by governmental institutions. So like how? All Mazes are puzzles but not all puzzles are mazes. All Fascist governments are th or Italian but not all authoritarian governments are fascist very could been. The Mazes Puzzles. Analogy. So, let's talk about what those characteristics are right the and some of them are you know how they function and then what what they do actions they take so. You could describe a fascist group or government as being very very against opposed to their opposers to anyone who is going to be a dissident or not believe the same things that they believe or fight against. I guess the desired beliefs of a populous they're going to aggressively attempt to suppress that or block that in some way they are going to attempt to. Use whatever power that they do have this group or government to essentially use it in a dictatorial way. So what they say goes anybody else again, going back to the first one is not welcome. They WanNa, have intense control on everything that occurs within their their society within the whatever it is that they control right that's everything from the economy to what people can and can't do in their personal lives in another characteristic here is that depending on how L-? Let's say let's say it's Depending on how the politics and government work within an individual area when you have a fascist group in power, essentially, this group is going to see fit to change whatever rules existed prior to them coming into power right? That's I guess one of the things that we could say there when I think hand-in-hand with that comes a strong sense of nationalism. Yes. Because if there has to be an In order to say, we are the ones who are right. We are the righteous path all others who oppose us are wrong and therefore need to be shut down and that requires kind of like a you know it's us against the world and that inherently is pretty nationalist kind of view, right? Yeah that's a very important important thing here is that wherever they are functioning, there's going to be a US versus everyone else attitude essentially this put forth in everything from laws too. Small. Things on the books that you wouldn't call a law necessarily just kind of a norm. Ultra nationalism is certainly a factor here who can't sort of the way that. This is a weird sentence. I never thought I would say not as a dean gun capitalism fascism but. A comparison I think that's worth making is that the same way capitalism must have a profit motive to exist for that mechanism to work fascism must have a conflict motive to exist fascism must exist in opposition to something and also it's super convenient if you're a. An Iron gloved dictator because you can just change what fascism means whatever you want. You know what I mean. We've always been at war with East Asia, right? That's one of the most pivotal impactful lines of fascism in fiction and or well of a self. AVOWED ANTI-FASCIST ANTIFA member but so ANTIFA is something we can't fully define fighting something that we also Fully defied, we know the characteristics we know the actions in the tactics. But I'm intrigued to hear more. About ANTIFA history 'cause like you said, Noah doesn't it didn't start in twenty seventeen in Charlottesville. Yeah. That's right. I mean as a movement, it has its origins what we might describe as the left. Even the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, the idea of anarchists. And the like. So while fascism is often characterized as being a far right militaristic hyper nationalist ideology again, problematic even. Sign it to. A particular Anti Fascism is the opposite. It's very much something that leans far to the left. Part of this comes from the simple order of operations that you find in history leftist groups where the first primary targets of fascist violence. And it arose as a reaction to that violence as a way to organize and protect folks that were identifying in this way from these types of attacks in there's an author who has cited quite often when discussing this topic, his name is Mark Bray and he wrote, Antifa, the anti-fascist Handbook and he writes about how you know the modern movement of ANTIFA. It really started in the nineteen eighties. A group at that time called anti, racist action its members confronted neo-nazis another pretty modern movement of an older thing, right? They would go to punk gigs, music, performances, and everything they've got in the Midwest and other places in the United States and they will just have confrontations with people that they believed to be neo Nazis. Are you guys familiar with the sharp movement Yep Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice I always found that to be fascinating. It's like you know with with a rise in skinheads in like punk rock scenes and hardcore scenes in the eighties Splintering and folks who like I guess still identified with the aesthetic of a lot of that but but we're not about that life. White nationalist. Ideology, and it was something that began in New York in nine, hundred six. But the idea of you know someone like, Hey, skinheads can be cool to we. We also be like about equality and and so therefore you have the sharp movement. I think it's a tremendous point. It's one the echoes what we set up at the beginning, which is these grouping disparate movements or people under the same convenient figure of speech or turn of phrase. Sure. It feels good to do that. Because we're humans we categorize and classify things we want to see patterns but we do a disservice to ourselves and others when we fall into that trap. By the early two thousands, the ANTIFA movement in the US was I guess considered mostly dormant in terms of mass media like there were definitely groups who align themselves with that they just weren't getting in CNN. Yeah and they they certainly weren't getting on CNN they were also they were showing up every once in a while. I don't know if you guys remember especially during George W Bush's presidency there were a ton of protests in there was some reporting on. anti-fascist movements, but it was very few and far between I can't recall at least any major protests that turned violent in a way that the. Group in power the which whoever was present at the time whoever was running the show that they had such. A response I guess or a public response against this group. Or people who they labeled as Antifa or like black bloc as well in occupied movements which we'll we'll get don't worry. We'll meet the blacklock. Leader. Now. Fast. Forward to just a few years ago. Don't call it a comeback or do call it a comeback. ANTIFA is back in the news, get new modern prominence after the events of what was called the unite the right rally. You probably remember the photographs that went around the US and the world of people marching with Tiki torches saying things like Jews will not replace us. This was a gathering of numerous right wing groups including. From that slogan, White Supremacist in Charlottesville Virginia and August of twenty seventeen Antifa was back in the news I in described as counter protesters. In this in this debacle and today. You know it'd be surprising to look through most news sources on their websites or watched most news channel shows and not notice some sort of. Mention of ANTIFA but the groups, there are groups who identifies ANTIFA. It's very real thing. This wasn't made up a whole cloth. The problem is that there are a number of groups identify with this and they have different at times contradictory goals, and they haven't even wider range of different tactics, right? Yeah. That's right. I. Mean it would typically be stuff you would categorize as nonviolent like chanting shouting having sins, human chains you know holding up signs the like but anti FOB has become controversial because they're like any. Lumped together large movement that there are many many kind of splintered factions of like with the skinhead example there are going to be more extreme little kind of offshoots of this So some of these factions of protesters this often referred to as agitators, which is another kind of term of abuse that's very easy to categorize all of the members of this movement agitators because of a couple of bad apples or whatever. If you will gotTa hate that term but we have So there's a belief in direct action confrontation and at times violence. That can include things like actual weapons, pepper spray brass knuckles, throwing bricks through store windows, and cars vandalism graffiti knives. switchblades things like that. That are easily concealable in a modern day it can include. Internet based tactics, things like Dachshund when you release people's personal information or basically you know just outright. Misinformation spreading about individuals and trying to ruin people's reputations. Online. So, for example, releasing personal information about a victim online getting someone fired for their political views, putting them on blast in that way, not in a positive way, which someone may be deserves but I guess deserving it depends on what side of the argument you're on some of these folks who are righteously indignant might believe that they are doing the right thing that's not really the point So why are there so many conflicting narratives and and is there one way? Is there like a truth core to this whole thing? It really does take us back to the main problem. Here. And that's in the same way when you're dealing with a group that has no leader right? That has no head that has no mission statement essentially for the entire group in control. From one. Sector or from one. Governing Board however you WANNA put it just like anonymous the same thing on. There is nobody at the helm is like minded people that identify as this movement as on TV and again much like groups like anonymous with Antifa when someone claims they are on Tika they are on TV. That's how it goes right and qualification is wanting to be that, right? Yes and then generally there's no swag to by necessarily I'm sure you can find it somewhere on pinterest somebody's got. An amazing on. Store there it's not like the KKK or the Communist Party I'm picking two different organizations. So I'm not picking anyone like you to be the Communist Party you have to apply will body you have to join? There's a membership, there are probably do. Is. The same. They have ranks they have hierarchy that doesn't exist in this. Constant yeah or like the crips and the bloods who both have their own soda in Atlanta at least for a while there. Thanks to killer Mike. Good on you killer Mike. You know you have to. You have to look at this in from both sides, right? That's what we're tempting to do today. So not only do you get to decide that you're on TV and then you become on. In the same way, if you have an opponent, let's say or someone that you dislike their views with. and. You label them through your words or actions on. Then, guess what they are until that person comes forward improves that they are not right and then you can say that's exactly what an antique. Member would say. It's Really. Good. You're absolutely right matt. The definition is dangerously malleable if you think about it. It's like beauty or pornography. The definition all too often lies in the eye of the older and for anyone interested in what a problem those two definitions have been. I would I would recommend checking out the court case in the US pertaining to James Joyce's ulysses where the. Deciding legal opinion was some highfaluting version of a pornography is pornography. Everybody knows what it is when they see it one hundred percent with Mapplethorpe as well. Sorry. I you're totally right and that's problematic because that's how antifreeze used as well where we don't have a good definition, but it's used by people in power as oh, that's what it is because I know when I see it and it's this slippery definition that fuels the numerous ongoing conspiracy theories about Antifa. What are we talking about? We'll tell you afterward from our sponsor. Did. You know GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent on top of what Geico could already save you. So what are you waiting for your dentist to actually believe you and your flashing every day? Absolutely great and you're cutting down on your sweets of course. Wonderful. Then I don't even need to look in their great see in six months. There's never been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit Geico, dot com for details. What do Alexandria Cossio Cortez and Mark Zuckerberg have in common I'm Sean Monroe, and I'll tell you each of their stories on who is the podcast on the first season of who is from. Now this I heart radio, I export power through the stories of those who haven't from Mitch McConnell Nancy, Pelosi to Hamad bin Salman. Now I'm back for season two. We're all take you behind the scenes for the real story on Alexandria. Cossio. Quartet's all singer Nikki. Haley. Black Lives Matter Jeff Bays George Soros, and more join me Sean Morrow. Who is the podcast listen to with the podcast on the iheartradio APP, apple podcasts or wherever get your podcasts. Kissed. Here's where it gets crazy I I you know. Thinking about this off air it's always is like a firework show. Do we save the big explosion for the end or do we start big I? Feel like we have to start big with the most prevalent conspiracy theory about Antifa? Oh, I know where you're going with US Ben. Hogan boy. Laid onto exactly where you're going. So. All right. All right, let's just do it. So the first thing you've probably read likely on facebook I'm GONNA bet facebook. Maybe twitter to twitter actually. You know what anywhere on social media you probably heard something on there of how. On Whatever it is you know what these groups of all these differing contradictory aims. Somehow all of these people are knowingly working together in secret and have a leader. They actually have a leader right people who really put this theory forward or people who? At least believe it right they. They will argue something like astroturf that we've talked about a lot on this show where essentially there would be a lot of varying groups standing in the you would see in the spotlight, right but they are actually standing in for something else and the group lending us kind of like a front company. But in this case, he would be as though every time you see. A big group of protesters day aren't actually there of their own volition. They aren't actually there to protest something they're being paid to be there they're like. I Dunno stroman protesters I don't know what to say about that guys. But also, ultimately, people believe this would put forward that these these really wealthy generally left wing individuals in groups are the ones that are behind on TV. They're the ones funding them, radicalizing them, putting them on buses, or in other ways to send them to towns and cities everywhere to wreak havoc on the United States on both the status quo on the infrastructure on the economy on everything, and they're doing it for their own nefarious and probably for you know money and power reasons. But Matt, a leader of this type would have to be very very wealthy and have lots of resources and also wield a lot of influence politically right. Oh. Yes. There is a prominent figure here that you've likely heard many many times before Mr. George Soros. You'll love him George Soros. He's a Baba billionaire as of May has estimated net worth was in the ballpark of eight point, three billion dollars fellow listeners. It's important to keep in mind however that every person at that level of wealth is more than capable of hiding the full extent of their assets. So while it's a good financial guests, you should not take it as Gospel Soros has been accused of so many things. He's he he occurs in conspiracy not as often as the rothschilds, but he's an up and comer on the charts he's been accused of vowing to destroy the United States. Reuters claimed to have this but the belief remains he's also been accused of outright owning Antifa kind of the way you would own maybe a trademark or a company or a battalion, and he's been accused of owning the black lives matter movement as well. This comes from one of his primary political enterprises is something called the Open Society Foundation longtime listeners you know that innocuous names with a lot of money behind them usually means something. Something fishy might be going on just be suspicious anyway. There that this foundation. Claims that they support the aims of the black lives matter movement and they support the aims of other protests but they do not pay these organizations don't pay them to organize data importantly pay protesters to show up and the leaders of black lives matter say that there are relatively decentralized group. However, you a little bit of Digging Open Society Foundation makes a lot of donations they create a lot of grants they did set up a twelve million dollar grant, and this is verbatim quote here to help organizations. Fighting Institutional. Racism. They also donate to a number of related groups things that ally with their aims across the planet and its concluding things like planned parenthood. It's including the euro like groups that try to address systemic or institutional racism. So kind of this, the heart of this conspiracy swear hinges on whether what's the difference between a donation and what's the difference between out now payment like are you giving people support because you believe in their mission or are you paying them to do to? Do a specific task. You know what I mean yet it will also it arises the question of whether or not by supporting you are talking about bussing in protesters or some action like that, which is something that occurs. We've seen it happened in the past for various protests for various photo opportunities have occurred in the past. It is a real thing that has occurred where people are shipped in from other places on purpose by a group that is willing to pay the money for the bus right but is that inherently like? Or crooked or disingenuous I mean you know people who support certain political parties might bus folks into the polls who couldn't get a ride otherwise or? Isn't this just a way of supporting movement I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying we know that that occurs in it is possible there. If you were, let's say going to pay several busloads of people to go like you're paying for the bus and giving each person they're a small amount of money who is going to go and spend their day doing that that would be writing the line right Yeah I mean the these are both fantastic points. Guess I would say. First off. I can't speak for everybody in the conspiracy stuff. But. I've never donated millions of dollars. Would I have donated? Has Not at this point. At least reach some threshold where. An organization care specifically what I want like if I donate to literacy fund, they're not going to me and going Oh you know is there any book don't want kids or the elderly to read they don't care I'll just get a letter that says, Hey, thanks for agreeing with us that people should be able to read. So I don't know how much how much power is there you know but. But that point about what services are rendered. Is Supporting. It's kind of like You know the argument is like with the tea party argument where people said these folks might think they're grassroots protesters, but they're being funded and and pushed into the forefront by very powerful right-wing entities and that that did turn out to be at least partially. True. I just don't know I think also got a I. Don't know about you guys have a little bit of a billionaire prejudice I just like we see the way that countries with less money than Soros are able to already influence elections right in a in a tremendously effective way. So isn't it kind of circuitous to take the long road around when you could just by politicians I don't know maybe it's about the journey I don't know what it's like a billionaire whatever it's about I. think it is worth US doing an entire episode on George Soros because there are so many current conspiracies surrounding him that it would be worth our time. Just to look into him in all his various groups and see we can discover. People on here's where it gets crazy. We're asking for that as well. So agreed. Okay. So that's like the big. That's what you're most likely to hear about. ANTIFA conspiracies and it's not always Soros, we just think he's an excellent example because he is so prevalent in in these ideas but there are other antifa conspiracies out there and some of them might surprise you. I guess because I group the Anti Antifa conspiracies, the Anti anti-fascist CA avenue. Yes. In jump into these anti antifa conspiracies, it'd be really helpful if you could take your mind back to the good old days of Batman and now when I say that good old days Batman I, mean just before Ben Affleck involved. So I. Run, around the time of Batman begins and the Dark Knight Specifically, in the Dark Knight, there is this amazing scene where Michael Cain comes in and he says. So, many just want to watch the world. Burn. And I. Think he's right now I'm just joking I don't know if he's right or not but that is the accusation of Antifa or groups calling themselves at our people identifying themselves as that and wearing. Shirts that have it written on on them that are usually black, but the the concept here is that. You know the true motives behind this group of people believing that is the Abbas. It's essentially chaos but the absolute dissolution of any kind of government, any kind of ruling faction that exists and and just bringing us all back to zero it Kinda reminds me of Mister robot in a way like reminds me a bit of the F. Society from from that show in series just occurred to me that maybe the F. Society stands for like F- Society Yeah. This is very Well. The problem here is that they're not you know people making this accusation aren't necessarily wrong, but they also aren't necessarily right either there's it's all of this stuff. It's such a great area because there's probably some truth in that concept that they are people who identify themselves as on defy that would like to see some of the major you know governing bodies and. governments across the world just kind of having to start over at least to some degree. Right? I mean, they're anarchists are real. Anarchists are probably at least to an extent involved in. Is Let's say or people who identify themselves as that but how much or how little like what that actual influences we just have no idea. We honestly nobody has any idea. Yeah it's true. I mean I, it ties into the other the other anti edify idea of subverting the rule of law right? Sometimes, it's A, it's a billionaire individual Zoro sometimes it's a group accused of one world order in the planet like The CF or something, and then sometimes it's just plain. Old Are Anarchist WanNa see the world burn. Watch this this tie in with the other conspiracy using well intentioned movements to as a vehicle to push for different unrelated violent agenda. This thing works though that's the problem with this one we know even the most cursory study of human history shows that people art easily led an easily misled. So this idea is that. Factions of ANTIFA whatever their origins whatever their motivations may actually be will create an otherwise peaceful protests or movement, and then try to push it further and further toward radicalization and violence. Lake you know let's say. No Matt's Alexis Paul or all at at A. At a protest, a peaceful protest against the closing of the local applebee's. And some other guy that no one has met shows up in his like, yeah. They should keep the applebee's open as a matter of fact, you know if you think about it, we should burn down the Chili's next to the street. You're on the next street over we're like, no, we're peaceful applebee's people like, yeah we can't be peaceful applebee's person if you're not also burning down that Chile's wasn't this. Stuff we covered in the agent provocateurs episode I mean it really they do kind of go hand in hand the idea of someone infiltrating a cause that as one particular aim that that could well be peaceful protests and then trying to kind of 'cause. I Dunno caused division within those ranks and try to convince people to to lash out and do violent things in the interest of coopting that movement or potentially even having the sh the protests be shut down you know to aid their particular. Would you say these things are related been yeah absolutely. No, that's I. I would categorize that as a left-wing ANTIFA conspiracy. So that's that's the crazy part. You'll hear about the right wing anti conspiracies, but you may be surprised to learn organizations that are lit affiliated with the political left. Are often themselves not automatically fans of what they consider Antifa part of that is the agent provocateur question. You know we've covered that in other episodes, but that's not a conspiracy theory. That's an active conspiracy tactic it happened before it's. Maybe happening now in my opinion and probably happening now, and it will definitely happen in the future. We know also that left a lot of left-wing institutions movements and groups have a huge problem with Antifa direct action and they say that this. This action. Violent action whatever the motivation or intention on the part protesters creates more problems than it solves. So what makes Antifa in particular? Different from other movements, we'll talk more about that after a quick break. Buckle up for an unfiltered dose of comedy from MGM and Audio Up Media Full disclosure I've had a lot of sex, but honestly having sex with like buying a breast much quieter than you'd expect. I know for a fact that I cannot may Mike it God is great and aerobatic. On fly like. That literally wants. To have shaved head I started growing it back and everybody says, why are you going your hair back? I was like listen I'm just trying not to be mistaken for unarmed black man. Okay. Oh. Yeah. Events are. Gone Away. Worse. Epics presents unprotected sets listen on the iheartradio, APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What happens when two therapists walk into a podcast and then hold people accountable for their advice? Hey, I'm Lori gottlieb irate the deer therapist advice column for the Atlantic and I'm guy which I write the Guy Advice Column for Ted and with the host of a new podcast from radio called the therapist. One of the most frustrating things for us as advice columnists is it afterward? No one gets to hear how the advice worked out. But on our show, you will be guide people through consultation and then have them come back and tell us what worked or didn't, and what we can learn from it. I was raised in a generation where men didn't show emotions. I am not good at words. But Going through it has helped me grow in that sense. That for two years, I'm his daughter, the six year old She hates me one minute and loved me ten minutes later. I don't WanNa lose sight of the negative feelings that I cost her. I just hope that at some point you can forgive me if you'd like to walk into our podcast, email us with your dilemma at Lori and guy at Iheartmedia Media Dot Com listened to therapist on apple podcasts the iheartradio APP over ever you get your podcast. And we're back with the question what makes Antifa different? Why is it so special? Why is it popping up now more than in the past we've we've discussed that it's historically been a thing for for a while. there. are some purported crimes of the ANTIFA movement or you know Multiple Movement that exist under this kind of umbrella was them something called Black Bloc tactics? Block. This is something you've undoubtedly heard about or seen videos of somewhere if not on live leaks. Then in other places generally speaking you would describe a black bloc. That's B. L. O. C. as group that deploys some kind of violent tactic. You know one form or another during a protest that is occurring for another blew the other reason or you know an individual reason for that protest, the black block would be there independently right and They would be doing things like we've seen. Vandalism destruction of some kind of property occurring while the protest is going on a lot of times a group that we would call a black bloc would be targeting. Sites, of significance to probably the economy that's a very one to government. You know any kind of building a city hall or something a bank headquarters of a large corporation there would be what would be considered or described as writing. They would. Do something. This one's a little lighter fare, but you know demonstrating without a permit or outside of a free speech zone. I think that's an important one. We were. is in Chile in Santa Iago, we saw a lot of kind of black block things, but they were they were escalating in step with the police. You know in a lot of south and Central America has heavily militarized police forces but. Colleen demonstrating illegally it sounds like a small thing. But if you withdraw the legal means to demonstrate then every demonstration illegal I, think there's some tricky things that legal authorities can do their will and even the act of demonstrating you are knowingly bringing about a police response right so if if it's not legal to do that, you know that's going to happen. So then essentially a group like this would or function as this would prepare they prepared defences essentially of barricades, they would encourage others to come out you. Know with them and do the same thing. They provide perhaps weaponry or other equipment for others, as well as providing medical care on site for anybody who's injured in their efforts. So why are they called this? Why Black Blocks Yellow Sea by the way they are known for really leaning heavily on remaining anonymous, wearing black clothes, covering their face and identifying marks like tattoos that being said though these are all things that are any protesters are gonna be doing now a lot of especially with the pandemic. Me a lot harder to differentiate these groups and we in our episode about protesting one. Oh, one we made it pretty clear that it's a good idea to cover any identifying marks, etc. but here's the thing moving in a unified mass the logic being they can't get us all. And that's true of any kind of I don't WanNa characterize this as like a gang or any kind of thing like that. It's not the same thing. But that is a tactic that folks that are saying like motorcycle gangs would employ they ride in a group because you can't chase down everybody you make people can divide and conquer and split and just kind of caused the authorities to be overwhelmed. Yeah. That's still sort of the case right? That's SORTA works for any. I. Mean. That's the reason why if you WanNa get away with a robbery of a small business, you go in with twenty people. And you move out fast there's a power in numbers it's an arguable, but it might not always make you anonymous. In the future, the surveillance state has been expanding. We've been in a massive expansion is phase of that. Since post nine eleven, it hasn't stopped since. Pretty, in the future, it's conceivable that it doesn't matter what you wear or where you leave your phone. Authorities will be able to find you or lease make a plausible case against you then proceed from there. Probably Another. Tactic that differentiates ANTIFA. In the minds of the mainstream media is property damage and it can feel pretty you know I don't know about anybody else again speak for anybody else but it feels a little off in pretty cold when you're seeing protests about. Of injustices and loss of human life and the first thing someone in authority says about it is like we have to protect the corporate building. You know what I mean like, what? What? What is the hierarchy? Where where do Where do people stand in relation to property It's it's an ongoing argument in this country So the idea here is the ANTIFA is different from a lot of other protest groups were ideologies because purposeful physical violence is. is in place somehow. So in two thousand, seventeen activists self identifying is ANTIFA or black bloc were accused of throwing Molotov cocktails causing one hundred, thousand dollars worth of damage in the Berkeley protests. February seventeenth twenty seventeen. So that's like that's like one example you can find a bunch of other examples as as well, and often what's weird about this is a lot of the accusations of violence against people or against property on the side of protesters. Is leveled at ANTIFA. Would it should when people calling themselves ANTIFA show up as protesters to right wing events you know night the ride or like a I don't know what I making up a plausible title in my head would be like. Freedom Rally, I duNno SORTA like in movies that don't have a lot of budget where you see products and it's like a jug of milk that just says milk you know like a thing of juice just as orange juice. But the thing here though that's interesting is that Proponents of ANTIFA or supporters or people who say they identify with this or related movements they will argue that the media's misleading people that what is characterized as purposeful violence is often instead self defense and this is something you brought up that I think is a very, very interesting thought that doesn't get address often enough. Oh Yeah. Sure. It goes back to the nineteen thirties again this time instead. Of in Germany in Britain and they had their own anti-fascist movement there on defoe when there was a a group gaining in popularity of political group gained popularity, they were known as British Union of Fascists at least according to reporting done by vox and around that time in nineteen thirty six, this group was attempting to have a large parade. Okay. This is place called Cable Street in London there and. What this group did. The British anti-fascist Group did was actually throw homemade bombs and bricks and other weapons at this group attempting to have a parade down the street to the point where they had to leave the whole point here was to. Preemptively attack them in self. Defense. in which sounds crazy but. The reasoning here is to defend against the possibility that a fascist group would eventually come to power right so they're defending themselves now for what the future would hold if this group came to power, it's is logically difficult. and. Uh. But imagine if you could have done that prior to the Nazis getting to power and you did it effectively enough where the Nazis just had to go home and be said yet. But. That's the time travel question. You don't know what happens because he's changing the time line and histories. obdurate history doesn't always hinge on one person guarantee you if you go back in time in. Era Of Germany pre. Rise of Nazi Power Adolf Hitler and you kill Adolf Hitler as a child. There will probably still be a Nazi party. There will just be a different lunatic making speeches and you'll be locked up because you went back in time and as far as they can tell, you just kill the baby. That's it. You're not a hero. Well, you know I, it does go back to the United States campaign of preemptive strikes against a lot of countries in the Middle East recurring early two thousands like they might attack. US. Someday. It's weird because I think anybody listening. With a critical enough mind can see both sides of that, I think you can see the concept of wanting to protect yourself against a group that may rise to power that would be very dangerous at least a you believe personally, that would be very dangerous. and. Also that you're not, you can't predict the future. That's man is just. Okay, it's complicated. Process of thinking through. Let's look at it from another side too. I, think this is a tremendously important thought. So let's flip flip it a little bit flip the narrative and say what if in the halls of power The argument is look we're playing fast and loose with the Constitution we're cutting some corners because we are preemptively defending the country because Antifa may be you know primarily known as protesting groups now, but we think they're going to be terrorist. There's not just the thought experiment that's literally what's what's happening or what's what's kind of in the mix in the in the dirty. Dirty cauldron known as twitter when that's sort of where we get to the point, we are in terms of the rhetoric surrounding Antifa, and the way it's used to label folks that may have may have nothing to do with it may not identify as it or even align with any of these concepts, but it's something that the president has used quite effectively to label. Folks who disagree with him or his policies or with protests to to kind of. Milan or in some way, diminish the idea of a peaceful protest or the idea of the cause that the protests my represent by labeling. Folks as ANTIFA and consequently labeling ANTIFA as a terrorist organization. This is something that he has pushed for in June he tweeted something to that that effect and this is absolutely aligned with the administration and the Justice Department's ongoing argument that Antifa, groups are the source of violence in all recent protests. And yet if if you've been paying attention. It's not one thing. So it's it's that absolute leaning into this kind of bundling up of labeling this multiple kind of splintered groups into as one thing all of which must be. About the exact same thing, which is violence disruption agitating and you know just a basically characterizing it as being against the rule of law real. Of course you know anyone can have any intention they want at any time just like an opinion. But when it comes to the law, there are tricky things there. The US doesn't really have the legal. Zoom to do what the current administration wants to have done. The US government. Only formally designates foreign groups. Terrorist organizations are F. T. OS, and That means the actions have to be taken internationally. Through a larger organization, Right Soros theory would have to be real. ANTIFA or people identified as that of two point Matt they do exist in other countries. It's not an American enterprise it started in Europe. But those folks are acting autonomously. They just sort of agree that they would like to use the same methods so. It doesn't seem like that meets the requirements for the State Department to label it a terrorist organization. But again, what's in a name? What's designation? Federal law enforcement already uses domestic terrorism categories to organize and describe cases right where they bring up the name of the freeze Antifa, and then they're already a host of anti-terrorism laws that authorities can use against what called domestic extremists. So we get we we really quickly fall into legal ease here but as we know in a post, nine eleven world that kind of. Kind of legalese is too often words and wind. You know what I mean and the practice the practice can be very, very different on the ground. We should say, of course that people who identify as anarchist in activists using these tactics disagree surprise surprise with the administration's claims they say there's not any evidence and then some other people say will should you? Consider designating far right. groups. Terrorist as well. Pair question. Yeah, I mean remember when the FBI tried to label Juggle Os as a terrorist organization. Oh, I thought it was just a gang. Yeah. That's said sorry by potato puts out now I know that they're very different but no, you're absolutely right. I it does point to a political motive. One cannot at least at the very least it's hard to argue with that. It is weird that. Her the anti-defamation League. Actually has some information on this and their findings were that well over well over seventy percent of murders that would be considered extremist essentially. That have occurred within the United. States were committed by groups that they would describe as far. Right or white supremacist. that's pretty interesting. Seventy percent of those at least according to the anti-defamation league and. You know as you can probably imagine if you don't believe that statistic if you don't agree with a group or organization like the anti-defamation League, you probably disagree with that. Statement right air you believe it's the opposite. Ends up coming down to belief unfortunately so so The, the government itself done in response to Nino these concepts about ANTIFA and the rumors and conspiracies that have been roiling up around them. Things fall apart the center cannot hold you know what I mean. The the problem is that there's not a a unified response. The US current US administration maintains view that Antifa should be considered a terrorist group and subject to. The considerations that definition includes but Mark Bray the author you mentioned at the top. Says that this is an attempt to control the conversation shifted away from what he describes as widespread. Economic discontent in the US which goes across all levels if we're being honest and there's not like one group of people. That's there's not one large group of people super happy. Right. And he says that there's a there's a mathematical problem here. He believes that there are literally not enough members of various anti-fraud groups out there to be doing all the stuff that the DOJ by the way and the administration are claiming that they have done So. So yeah, and then you'll see other, of course. The ideas in municipal regional level government state level governments may differ your individual mileage may vary that that's the problem there was a there was a report by national counterterrorism unit in January of two, thousand, twenty, I want to say that found the same thing they were like, no one's on the same page about this, we have these serious gaps. I don't know if we can go out and call a group terrorist and just keep changing the definition of what terrorism is or what that group is until we get it to work because that's a little bit like well far be it for me to say the F. Word. Fascism right. It's a little bit right to take like look. We all love improvisation love Improv, yes, and is such a such a beautiful panacea in bomb but guys improvisation belong in these kinds of things does it belong in government? I don't know. Yeah I guess it's true but. Definitely, a lot of things that don't belong in in government, but we we see him every day and improvisation certainly become a big one. Yes, and this is an ongoing story. Sorry not now now. I this is an ongoing story because right now. If if this would this. Perspective was pushed through and this designation became closer to being a reality. No one really knows what would happen. We haven't been to that late part of constitutional argument yet. Constitutional scholars. Are. The majority of them are like, okay this would be illegal. But no, one can. No one has one hundred percent proof about that. Like we would be an argument while was being an argument. You can bet your bottom dollar that forces on the ground, which is act like. The argument had been decided in whichever way they wished, whatever that way might be, and that's where we're. We tried on this one to give. An objective view of ANTIFA and conspiracies and the differing narratives about it, and also the hugh again, the huge tremendous problems with definitions. If I if I start calling people pop farts. And the definition of pop part is that I? Think you're a pop tart. then. It just depends on what kind of damn having right as to whether or not your prosecuted pop tart. That's just. Best pop farce out there are definitely strawberry frosted. Just everybody's aware I like the cinnamon sugar ones myself can't stand up on really. Okay I guess. I guess we're on two sides of the divide here my friend. Look three of its Moore's guy. Wants to know I like the s'mores when to because they've got the Graham cracker. Crust that really sets them apart but but it's the same as like you know this labelling thing is something that we see to. In political rhetoric where people are given China the. Insulting nicknames and it starts to kind sink into the public. When you repeat something enough our brains tend to bucket things in those ways that you were talking about at the top of the show our brains look for patterns and that could be something as simple as saying you know Fardie Been, bowling? Before you know if people think Bimbo, Lynn's got a flatulence problem. Sorry I'm sticking with Fart thing here. but it's true and words are very powerful ANTIFA because it's such a pithy little brand name sounding thing it's something that's very easy to lump folks into even if you don't really know what it is, which a lot of people don't seem to. So we. Would love to know your opinion about all of this. Are you. Extremely. Anti. On TV. Or you who down with whatever that 'cause represents. According to you. Are you like Chandler we're a stack of Charlotte North Carolina who according to the intercept wrote wrote a message to the FBI was all like, Hey, I lied on defoe over here in. Charlotte. Was Up and then they totally came out to his house to have a little chat with him. Read the intercept by the way that story is called. He tweeted that he was the leader of on than the FBI asked him to be an informant. It's fantastic. But you know really, how do you feel about this? What do you think about it? We would love to know your opinion especially if you identify as Anita or you are a part of a group that would consider themselves on TV we'd love to hear from you and just know your story. You can contact US anonymously by the way if you wish to do that through an email or through a phone call that. You can just you can talk to us if you're worried about your own safety or privacy. Right. Yeah The. Also while you're at what's what's your? Where are you at with this whole pop tart pop fart thing. You know we want your opinions for the most part of the show and this has nothing to do with anything but I don't know about you. All I'm curious. Why is it normal in the US candy for breakfast? Let us know. Let us. Let us know about the ANTIFA stuff I, that should be the priority you can get they should be eating bacon right? Just Bacon for rejoiced. 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355: No Such Thing As The Big Bad Virginia Woolf
"How low and welcome to another episode of no such thing as a weekly podcast coming from undisclosed locations in the uk. Is dan schreiber. I'm sitting here. With addition ski andrew hunter murray and james harkin and once again we have gathered around. The microphones are third favourite fats from the last seven days and in no particular order here. We go starting with my this week. My fact is that while working as publisher the poet t s eliot liked to sit his visiting authors on a whoopie cushion before offering them an exploding cigar. Do this with everybody. Yeah i don't know if people will warned about it. I think most people assumed it wouldn't happen. He was a very serious guy. According to the writings he released so the idea that you would to the office of the great poet he elliott and having a cigar explode in your face while making loud fart sims. out of place. Doesn't it you think maybe the very grave serious persona he had throughout his life was all an act so that he could date without people expecting it. That's a great an old building up to this whole the front yeah. It wasn't just as authors. Who came in who he would turn these sort of practical jokes onto he wants. Broke up a board meeting as well by setting off. A bucket. Full of firecrackers underneath the chairman's legs. So he was all over. The shelby was a nightmare to work with. Sounds like a maniac. That sounds dangerous as a fourth of july prank. Yeah you'd be if you weren't quite senior in the company or you'd weren't about to become the greatest part of the twentieth century. You would be for that but wait a minute. We're going to be quite cool if you're about to be fired and they were your fire. You know your fired off donning. Maybe that's what happened. And it was such an event that complete difficult these accident so eliot he famous poet but also was actually a publisher himself so he worked for faber and faber in fact he actually worked for before it was favoring favor he works for it. When was favor inquire then. We know why. I just same very very good. Publishers faber. They've got one book out this year. I think it's called funny. You should ask by the we go off. Sorry don usa. But so yeah. So he joined them in the nineteen twenties and he became a director and editor there was saying he was one of the great of the twentieth century. Which i guess he was fine but he did. he did also right cats. I mean he is. I believe that's what we're referring to where we saw. Sorry he's the lyricist credited lyricist on the musical cats even though he died twenty years before it came out because he wrote this book. Old possum's book of practical cats nine hundred ninety nine and it was for his godson it was. It wasn't yeah. That's that's fair to say that he wrote cats. I say he wrote cats because for example he won a tony award. Four cats in one thousand nine hundred three eighteen years after he died and they wield him up. Didn't they won't ceremony surprise. I have all time. Bulb goes off. I think in his defense he said about an interview and he was asked about the wants to keep one's hand in. So you know you just keep trying stuff out. You keep roy the practice of writing even if you're not really writing serious stuff but he did really enjoy rising about cops because in the same interview he basically said. I've thought about writing about dogs but they don't seem to lend themselves to verse quite so well which i can see that. That's true. A dog on a log does rhyme by think. There's more rhyming. Words for cats off the dogs. Just i mean. I'm not a poet as you might be able to tell by just now. I think that's good. He probably hadn't thought the lock thing from the august. Well actually frog cat in the hat. Isn't it not dog on the log with okay. He wasn't deceased poetry. As i've never read any of the stuff of ezra pound gave his nickname which you mentioned dominica which was awesome. So it's called old possum's book of practical cats because that was elliot's nickname and it's related to his serious personality so despite all the practical jokes he was known for being incredibly stiff. The nickname came off. The fact that possums are known for faking their own death so the idea was that whenever he was at a social gathering. It seemed like he was faking being dead. That's how much life he contributed to the party. A play awesome exactly but so he likes the name possum. Is that what you're saying. He did like it yeah. It was affectionate and virginia. Woolf said he was so buttoned up you were a four piece suit and so he liked the name person. He kind of embraced this and they was based on the joke. I understand trying to work out a. Because i wanted to know that was a bit of a three piece suit. I was missing all these years of missing. That's interesting because he did have a bit of a lack of a sense of humor about his name's generally for example t s eliot wise the s in there. Why not t elliott. Two guys know all i know rarely about before. Recession this is his name is not a gram of toilets. So as you go if you if you take the out it's toilet backwards. And he did not want that to be the case. Yeah heating. that's why he put the us in. This is a lot of people said. I haven't read him saying it himself. Buds samuel beckett has written about it saying t elliott toilet spelled backwards. Olden mentioned it that. That's what you would get. I think it was the thing that everyone had noticed. And so that's why the s was in there so we know he didn't like dogs. We know he likes cats. Do you know what other animals he didn't like spied us. I guess is the farmyard animals. As a as a group he famously at rather perhaps not as famous as it should be while working at faber turned down. George orwell's animal. You'll submitted to them who And he read it and he wrote him a nice long letter saying it's brilliant and i'm very upset that we're not going to be publishing it because it means that whoever gets to publish it will probably get to publish your subsequent work. I just. i can't do it. It doesn't fit with us because he doesn't like the only. I'll tell you another animal. He didn't like flies because they also turned down. Lord of the flies favor favor subsequent fact in this show you're gonna be linked tangentially to anonymous it because lord of the flies has called picky and you got pigs and five yards brilliant. That's exactly it. yes they were they. Don't they turned it down with the notes rubbish and dull pointless reject wild. Ouch sounds like quite bad. Publisher to write poems to make ends meet donald. These absolute stone cold hits on light favor of today. Of course who. It's on the with somebody. You should ask the new book by the q. I l available now spoiled. I didn't know how fun it was. I appreciate you've just said that he's not fun all the way through this but i didn't know he really liked groucho marx. He idolized groucho box. They had dinner. Wants to get the t s eliot groucho marx. But then it was a complete disaster because all marks what to talk about was literature elliott brothers. Really interesting if groucho marx was going to become friends with anyone. You would think it wouldn't be someone who has the big exploding cigar trick up his his ultimate pray for tsn one day. Well actually make so much sense. Sorry because once wrote marks a lesser. So he'd written a letter saying can i have a photo of you and marked center and tears elliott put this framed on his table but then at the wrote another letter to mark saying In the photo of you. You're no smoking your cigar and is a bit annoying because my visitors come look at it and say who's that no one is without. Can you do with the cigar. So maybe that was a little part of a ploy to get the exploding cigar into his face this interesting. I think it's interesting though so close. Because elliott was quite unsee semitic. Wasn't he she. We should mention. I think a lot of his poems before he became famous do have certain anti semitic tropes to them and that it was before second world war and then obviously after the second world war people realized that weltman at. You can't really do this kind of thing. But he never really properly backtrack thomas. So yeah well actually. It was quite tenth. I'm not sure they did like each other that much. If you read the exchanges of letters they're full of bob's so though was one where when marks and elliott. This photo elliott wrote back saying. I've hung that right next to my photos of yates and pull valeri in the pride of place and then groucho wrote back. Tim saying not so weird. Because i'm just read an essay about you which named those other two pictures but there was a conspicuous absence. Trust was an oversight on the part of the journalist with thing to write to someone mentioned a photo of me. yeah. I read elliott. Excuse was you said. Oh we'll y'all picture was a photo and the other pitches were drawings or paintings so maybe be a writer only notice the paintings and noticed photographs and didn't wanna talk about case very us absolutely mad in the old days you had to write to someone for a photo of them. We just appreciate that as a really stupid. Imagine some now again is now. Google limits and then click live picture of groucho marx. Your wall with all the other people you've met you don't want one that you've taken on google image would getty images. You should come and see my gallery wallets lovely water bugs on it so everybody friends around. Shall we talk about his sex life. Oil always up for that okay. Sure it was very difficult. I think is headlight. Was very awkward around women He got a lot relationships in his life and until the end they were pretty much a disaster. Oh i was ready for the juicy stuff. James was just okay. he had bad relation. Okay i was just get a set it up for someone else to gentlemen that we find have relationship is his. Most famous relationship was with vivian. And he told the wolf's that he couldn't imagine shaving in her presence that's how awkward relationship was between those two people. Virginia we should say no actual wolves confusing. Sorry i just yeah dogs but love wolves. I i thought i thought i pronounce the word wolf with the obvious. You're below. It was so obvious. That was double guys. I had the blues. And that's what i was. But i think wou- will probably she virginia always said Yeah what did they say about. They said oh that's interesting. Well he just pop up lose. Greek busni with the wolves. Virginia bertrand russell as well with whom his wife had an affair. What if any will say what were you saying about. What will say we need to know. What the rules of the he said it to the wolves he said. I j shaving in my wife's presence and then the wolf said you really need to make this house outs of bricks. He said he couldn't much shaving and his wife. Yeah because he was so awkward they got married really really quickly but then it was really obvious. Buried very quickly that they weren't compatible one little bit slept in different rooms as well. That's the well. They tried to sleep in the same room on their honeymoon as is traditional and it sounds oakwood as is the theme so they went on honeymoon in eastbourne and she was on her period and had an embarrassing accident when they were trying to have their honeymoon moment and they were both so incredibly embarrassed that he went and slept out on a deck chair outside the hotel for the rest of the week. She trust the hotel room because she was in such a frenzy of embarrassment and then she took the sheets away with her because she didn't want hotel off to see them but then of course they just called the home when they go back and said you've stolen petting. Which does it which is more embarrassing. I think but they also i think at that point of the honeymoon the honeymoon was meant to be the debut sex fest because they haven't had sex as far as i could tell. It seems that they got married really quickly. Because i think he told ezra pound he said. I want to have sex and then three months later he was married to her so fast abuse. They should rebrand honeymoon. Debut sex fast off to stay with the wolves. Hasley virginia will world said. Even who was quite mad. We're living with vivian. Was like having a bag of ferrets. Hung around your neck. She was very trouble. Wasn't shows and and you know she was. She sectioned at one point when he was away and she spent the rest of her life in hospital. Yeah he went away to america didn't he. And then his solicitors center lesser same her separation rather than him saying it and then when he went back to london she kind of stopped him would go to his office and he would always sneak out the back door so that she wouldn't see him And then she would walk around london with a knife. It was like a rubber knife is like a joke. She was like. I'm trying to five my husband with this rubber knife. Why did she get it from the of the smith. He's absolutely clear. And then she joined the british union of fascists in. Yeah and she likes to wear the uniform in public. Yeah because when you hear about the early days of her life particularly the university years everyone sort of talked about her as being very flamboyant she was a great dancer she'd always speak remind she smoked in public which wouldn't usually see women doing. She dressed like an actress. Oldest huxley said that he really liked hanging out with her because she was vulgar it was she was just so different. She would say what she thought. And then you get to this fascist period where suddenly it seems like a totally different character in fact the last time she ever saw elliott was one of his book talks where she went into the audience. She brought three books with her and she brought her dog and he signed her books for her. And then when someone else is the weirdest thing is the loss time they saw each other. Well yeah but still. She book signed she. she won't is. She found his signature on the internet printing off and stuck it. Fuck so you've seen my autograph but she didn't. She tried various ways to get him back so one of them seem to be bringing this dog to his book. Shots which is about idea. Another one was putting an advert in the times. The nineteen thirties so she thought that was sort of a conspiracy to keep them apart by other people and so she put out in the time saying. We'll t s eliot. Please return to his home at sixty eight clarence gate gardens which he abandoned in the september the seventeenth nine fifty to well. Yeah i'm do you know. Eliot himself was really secretive about his correspondence. The in fact the whole estate has been very secretive since he died. Pretty much 'cause his his widow's go valerie. He married again much later. So peter at croke was trying to write a bug him and he was forbidden to quote from any correspondence or unpublished work and he was hardly allowed to quote. Even actual published poems of t s eliot in this biography of the man elliott destroyed so much correspondence between nineteen o five and nineteen ten thursdays. One postcard left by him. That's at is for those five. Years is a really sunny here. You will having a lovely debut success. Boca stopped up. Podcast i ever everybody eight just wanted to let you know. We have sponsor this week in the name of the sponsor is. hello fresh. who they andy. So hellofresh are fun. They provide fresh seasonal ingredients and recipes delivered to your door. They send these to you. You cook the recipes quickly make a delicious meal. Eat the meal feel better and you cook something new. It is win win win. It's true and if you suck cooking like i do. This is the only way really that you can actually eat in a in a pandemic Otherwise it's just baked beans. That's no good so hellofresh literally saving my life and hopefully yours There are so many amazing meals that you can go through. 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It's a magazine which sounds like it's going to be about economics but actually it's about the whole world. It's about beans. It's science politics all sorts of stuff. In fact here's a food based facts. Paul you gotta go on in british columbia. Soya sauce is unbelievably popula and during the pandemic loads of people have been buying it. Because everyone wants to have something that they feel at home meeting during the pandemic like baynes for instance or soy sauce. If you're british columbia we're actually sponsored this week by beans. We've got to come to lead the way british columbia at the moment on ebay because there's a shortage of soy sauce. You can buy two bottles for fifty canadian dollars. That's how much is going for. Lee lord. I know but what. I love about economists. Does it kind of gives you a microcosm of all these different places around the world with all the interesting articles it does. It's brilliant really. Goes into a lot of debt. So it's extremely well researched. It gives you this full global perspective. And if you if you want to know what's happening in the world anywhere in the world we really really do recommend it so many amazing facts in there and you can get fifty percent of your first year and that includes full access to the up onto economists dot com the website. And that's if you go to economists dot com slash fish fifty. that's five zero. That's right so you're fifty percent off your first year and to enjoy the economists. Whatever wherever you want. Go to economists dot com slash fish fifty fish five. Oh okay with a podcast on with the show okay. It is time for fact number two and that is james fact this week. Is that in twenty one. An artist got lost in los angeles and added to make his own sign to stop other people from getting lost in future. Not only did it remain unnoticed for a year but when the city was tipped off they found that it met all sign rules and they kept to in place. Eight years so jumping. What was the science saying. It said five the word nor by. Yeah so this was assigned to get off a highway and get onto another highway. And basically the signpost tell you where to go was really close to the ramp and really the should have been one a lot further back so whatever. Anyone drove down the one ten and once. He's gallons to the five. They would only realize that the last second that i needed to be in a certain lane and they would kinda sweb in front of the cars on. He was like well. It's just really dangerous. So i'm going to five. Maybe a mile further back or half mile further back and he put there and he did it in broad daylight he just one day he just got out of ladas just went up there and did it and it was there and no one noticed and i think he tipped them off in the end. The sir artists. Richard on chrome he tips off the city the end and they just kept it there and then they decided with making some new signs. Now i'm going to have to take this down. But actually they put a new five while his five was took his down on the anew up there so they kind of tacitly that he was right that it should have been the. He planned it for ages as well like he. He didn't just go in broad daylight just dressed as he was he he absolutely planned the whole thing so he had his haircut. Don't show why this haircut. He bought some workloads. He had a hard hat. he got an orange vest. He must've been defense the navy. He had a mohican and he had his truck. He did a thing where as well as making the signed edge for the actual sign itself. He made sign for the side of his truck to match the towel. Trends which california transports the logos and so on to make it. Look like he was part of them so he's properly planned and he's not as disney and he because he clearly doesn't have a nine to five job he called his piece guerrilla public service and i should just say that i got this fact from a book called the ninety nine cents invisible city field guide to the hidden well everyday designed by roman mas on. It's really awesome book based on the ninety nine percent invisible podcast by his full of loads of awesome stuff about the streets. And you you know if you read it you want down the street you go. You know why. That's though you know what about style you know. And he's amazing. Roman mas yeah just ninety nine percent. Invisible didn't need any extra advertising the new book so cool help people keep doing this around the place. And it's kind of all these micro banks but with particular bugbears so there are currently going on in sheffield where people are changing notes on resigns into cues and no one really knows why they're doing this Yeah yeah so. There is a theory that it's to do with q not. I was wondering if which is the insane conspiracy that the is run by. Satan worshipping child sacrificing pedophiles. But i don't know why in sheffield people will be changing into this. What out so maybe nothing to do with that One of the road based public service. That people before which i think is very cool. In the czech republic a group of check nerds space to save the government eighteen million dollars. What and they did this. Because this guy called thomas vondra check and he is a businessman even some businesses and he found out the country was about to pay eighty million dollars to switch their road toll system to a digital system and as someone who knows about coding and stuff he was really pissed off. He put a post on linked saying this is classic. Bureaucracy gone mad. This task is simple enough for a group of programmers over weekend and he without lenton and the prime minister got in touch. I was like well. Is that true. And would you mind doing it. And he was all right awesome friends and he signed up hundred fifty of his program of friends and over forty eight hours. They got together and redesign the whole check road system and they got like meals brought them by members of the public and not say three speaking of european road stuff and road signs at the big story of this year As we all know was the town of fucking which is in worst telephone austria in austria and they are sick and tired of all the fucking tourists. Coming stealing that roadsides right they really fucking roadsigns roadsides so. They decided that they were going to change their name to fogging. They voted on that. This happened the town of fucking is now called the town of but it hasn't stopped the vandalism because there's been a whole load of mall vandalism of people changing the sides back hoping fucking is is objective funny sounding word and it's quite close to the original. They should have changed it to get something. The koch a gap. There's already something. I get the thank you in. Two twenty seventeen in china in the province of jiangsu. A man was arrested for repainting road signs in order to make his commute easier he was pretty annoyed. Things stuck in traffic in a lane on the most way and he was calling. Cctv painting big white. Paint arrows to redirect all the cars in his lane into the lane next to it is brilliant as if as if he would get out painted. Get back at all the callers ago. I couldn't walk out for when you started saying how you would jus road signs to make your commute easier. Because i thought he was pretty directions for himself like this way derek. Or whatever i would love to do. That's the thing that exists in los angeles this thing i read it not buzzer. So if you live in los angeles you would know about this. But i'd never heard of it. Before the road signs rectangular yellow roadsides that just turned up every now and then and they tend to be a black herro with some letters above and some lettuces below and the letters below are kind of in the mirror image of the ones above. And what these are. Is that directions to movie sets or two. Tv show filming locations and when you're in l. a. And you're filming and some kind of parking lot somewhere you'll put these signs up so all the techies will know what to go. All the actors will know. Go stuff like this And obviously the people in la know what this is but if you're a tourist and you're kind of looking celebrities and stuff you just wouldn't know you just see the side and you think well it's just nonsense also doesn't say batman or whatever now but what they do is they tend to put words that the people in the know would know what it is people who don't know what it is wouldn't know what it was for instance say magnus rex this way. Magnus rex this way. And that was the batman reboot dot notes rises. So if you saw those side you would not go to the dark knight rises the size for rasputin. So you would think oh. They're just doing some low budget russian movie but actually it was i monto but that's that's russia batty in it so yeah. That's a very tricky. Yeah is i think they actually tried calling it. Yeah well in ancient rome. They used to have names on road signs. Didn't they think i read the same. That yeah you used to have. If you had a road sign. Whoever built the road would have their name on it. So you could admire the work of this particular person and then it would have the name of the person who lost repaired it so sort of updates on who to thank for the smoothness of these toilets were last checked by signs of lose exactly so this is kind of about street art and artists mucking around with things. I'm so i just thought i'd try and find out a little bit about benghazi and amazing to be who he is now identified that but the was a large theory. That did the rounds dirt. It's neil buchanan from art attack. If you remember that from your childhood because he's very used to large outdoor multimedia installations you know. There's lots of good circumstantial evidence. It got so bad this year that he had to put at the top of his website and announcement saying neil buchanan is not banksie. We have been inundated with inquiries over the weekend. This website does not have the infrastructure to answer all these enquiries individuals. We can't confirm. There is no truth in the river whatsoever. So nail so The museum of modern art's in new york has had a few of these over the years. the was a guy called harvey stromberg. Who in one thousand nine hundred seventy. One decided that he wanted an exhibition in moma but obviously they won't let him because he wasn't very famous so what he did was. He went in every day and he would take photos of a light socket or of a title of the flaw or of brick on the wall. He would go home he would printed out on his prensa and then he would go in and stick it over the exact place where taking the votes on from like a loaded. The napa found the for years and years and years. Whenever you put one on the floor they will find the same day because they had those kind of buffing machines that would go round and clean the floor and they would find them but with some that would just over a brick on the wall which they didn't find for decades in my house to broken bits of wallpaper rusting ball. And let's just take a photo of a nice bit of paper stick sticking of you read about the gramma. Vigilantes these these people who go around correcting signposts. They seem to happen in various countries in bristol. Bristol house the. uk's leading grandma. Vigilante and he specializes in apostrophes. He began in two thousand and three when he saw a council sign which said open mondays to fridays. But with a loss vs both those words which obviously is painful experience and so he invented something called the upholster pfizer which is an eight foot long tool which basically they're going to be stamp on the end so the really high signs an insert the apostrophe and. He doesn't mind do diamond so he built his own. Specially made stepladder so not to be lent up against shops. Well how is he doing with a noble stepladder. You're using the stepladder wrong if bricks fall out of it. He's noticed that. I've got a couple of things just on signs okay. General signed so firstly. I found it quite amazing. That signs played an important role during world. War two in the uk in that. That was a message that went round so a lot of people to remove the signs so that if any germans were coming over they'd be confused and have no idea where to go so they people encouraged us to take them down and people would arrive not know where they're going but on the flip side was also movement by hitler to change signs around saying you would send people to apparently that's a thing that was attempted. I don't know how successful it was. So it must have just been very confusing because dot zombie mazen. If hitler and you've got spies on the ground during the second boer definitely want to know about troop movements and the state of the country's defenses more than misdirecting people to the local church. Whatever besides gang commute a loss on its way for tea. Well this is why they lost the war on they definitely. It was definitely a sign of resistance in norway when the fascist dacoven norway very subtle of resistance was apparently you often gave nazis incorrect directions when they asked away somewhere that was the signal that year on the good guy sides become. Find the right back to you because they lost so. That's actually pretty effective. Yeah have you ever given someone wrong directions in london for instance like a tourist and then realized afterwards that you thought you didn't do l. purpose then you realize you think oh fuck. I've just sent them to. The robot is not that was feelings in the world. isn't it but if you suspect that there were foreign spy than is actually a leftover nazi looking away. Okay it is time for fact number three and that is andy. Effect is that king edward. The third owned a yeti mask okay. So i've said yeti mask there's a creature in english mythology which i think is kind of close sort of analogous to the basically the these things called word roses and wild men who lived in the woods they were. They were not civilized. They were coveted hair. They weren't really human from over depictions of the crop blood in medieval manuscripts and things like that normally kind of try to carry women often than a night has to turn up and save the day. Kill the woes and in edward thirds accounts. They have these wardrobe accounts which list everything that the king bought from thirteen. Forty eight hundred capita daiwa's which is the head of a word was in fact before it. There is xiv which has fourteen roman numerals. I don't think that means he bought fourteen. I really hope it was it was that. Yeah so he he really likes. He's from the fourteenth century. Had with the third right he really enjoy doing like tournaments and jousts and stuff like that and according to one paper i read so this is by a guy called. Hsbc who has like american billionaire. Who became a historian. He reckons the edward my of use the mask for one of his christmas tournaments so that maybe people would be jousting with a woes hadlow site map in light. You don't like the masked singer where people are height of justice byron masks and stuff because there was also a capita elephants him a cups of burcham a capital leona and capita signal so in his wardrobe he had an elephant had a virgins had lions had swans head so burdensome. How can you tell the virgin's head. I mean the hymens not on the head. It's going to give away on. That was a wardrobe. He did have free lavish taste so this might be the same as the word was a costume but thirteen thirty seven. Thirty eight the clock of his wardrobe ordered these huge amounts of cloth in yawn and a full bulls hides and loads of gold leaf and also eighty six plane mosques and twelve mosques with long bids and this was preparation for the kings games which they had every year at along with that they built an entire fake forest. So tim berne paint and everything must have fake first. And then they made loads of linen baboons and drop to these linen goons into the forest and they sowed the boons into tunics of polls and hose and gloves and caps on them and everything so they were wearing the propaganda. 'cause they're in the rural households and then that they gallop fake. I and hunted down linen. Baboons oh my god. Us house amazing. A lot of this was because So edward was married to philip of. Hey notes right. And they were very young when they got married and so there was a regency period where bala was looking after the country. Who was at wood's mother right now. So isabella cats. Philip and edward in real poonery like she wouldn't give the much money to do anything they kind of had to live a life almost normal people but normal rich people but then when they became king and queen proper they just really went for it and philip of handled just spent so much money on all these incredibly lavish clothes and jewels and by thirteen sixty day owed about sixteen thousand pounds to various different clothing. Embroiderers tailors furriers and a couple of million pounds in today's terms that they owed to these people. And i was reading about like one rogue that she had which required nine hundred fifty two venturous and i didn't know what a bencher was. Apparently it's the further you get from the belly of a red squirrel so they had to get nine hundred fifty two squirrels to for this one robe. It's like whoa is the whole blaming. The grey squirrels thing with a scapegoat that these guys create as they actually missed extinct. He really went bust later on he. The third had to pull off the crown jewels so that he could raise money. He didn't have a yeah a but he pulled off the great crown of england to simon mirabella. oh just one thing that he did own which is quite similar to something that owns is he had a yeti mug it his ma and as much as he had a silver cup that was decorated with wars. And without if we're saying that elza yetis than he had yet. I think dan will pro. You've been keeping a very polite diplomatic silence about whether they yet he's not. I'm pretty sure. Dan thinks that. Not yetis they. It's a completely different completely different species before before we get into a me absolutely ripping and sticking on that with the third per second. He's an interesting character. That i hadn't heard of him as a king have to say again not british. So he's very back but you've heard of. It was the fifth and sixth presumably. You knew the third must have happened before. I've i've got all the other in the trilogy of but i've not seen that one a downhill. Yeah so is interesting in that. All of us are probably related to him. He's one of those guys where they've done a few reports where they say. There's a one thousand nine percent chance that if you are of british origin if you were born and your family was through this period you directly related to him so all of us are his great great great great grandchildren but also he created something that still goes on today which is also connected to clothing. Which is the chivalry knights of the dancer end. The gaunter itself is literally a gotcha which you would wear. There's a story that he was at some dance. And he was dancing. With the countess of salisbury and the garter and this this is one of the stories many stories but the story is that the gods are slipped down her leg and everyone started laughing but he got very furious and he yelled shame on him who thinks elevate about the situation and he kept the guard sir and that is the motto of the knights of the garter shame on him who thinks elevate in latin and that is a garter that became the code for these nights. Which is the thing still going on today. In fact there's over thousand knights of the garter now the thousands of which was prince william which is very convenient number to land on. Yeah yeah he got to fill in those last twenty six wondering pa so you think that they rush through a low together with thousand. Don't you think a lotta people what allowed to become like that. yes yeah. Interestingly it's the two princes it's andrew edward and then it's meant to be william next but they slipped an mp inbetween just taking up nine hundred dollars at nine nine anyway. Woodrow says andy. Yukking idiot they are yes eastern the british say okay. This is the real thing. I think they may have a kind of relationship with real history in that. Obviously the mythical beast was is that you know. They're not that exist. But after the norman conquest you did i for many years. You've got gangs of wild men. Living savage in the woods swamps. They were social outcasts. They were criminalised. So that is a possible origin. Point full the story sort of wild man living in the woods there lots of medieval churches which have word roses in the stones. And so there's this wedge kind of relationship between local methods and newer christian traditions that got it well even even great scientific minds actually for a while thought that these were real and they didn't think it was a separate species they thought it was someone as you say went wild became wild had children that were wild and they grew up as a sort of sub species that knew nothing but the wild in fact the person who gave us the name homo sapiens. He had the nias that nancy did that. And one of the categories was homo ferris. Which was these wild people. And he was convinced. And that's been dropped since we don't talk about his hormone farris group. There's a few but he believed that we're wolf boys a feral children that were abandoned by parents and subsequently raised by wolves. that's the actual walls. Not virginia woolf's family and and there's lots of legends like romulus in rome on ramos. Who's was suckled by a she wolf and there was a belief that as of naturally grew hair. I think in the forest to protect themselves because they were living the elements wasn't that that's right. I quite like that. Romulus and remus was suckled by a she wolf because edward. The third who wore a wuss was suckled by a she wolf as well. No he wasn't was he what his mother was known as the she wolf very fair. Switcheroo these tenuous links to animal themes don't let the let the tears. Elliott would have rejected that for publication. You know what was is art. And wild menace. Deflate are in one very famous historical poem seen as we talked about t s eliot and that is the fourteenth century romance poem surg away in and the green knight and according to that poem. The woto's is in the uk they have on the world peninsula which is just outside liverpool calling to this poem in the wilderness of world dwelt there but few that got a man with good loved and basically this was such a wild west wooded crazy area that this is why you would get these waldman living if the if the beatles didn't shave meticulous every day not the other stuff going fights in grain and the green knight is quite odd so the green knight himself is a kind of word. Rosa in the token does the translation where he translates. The green is being a word was and they will often green men as well. Where another method cool wild man but also fights in that. Chivalry meth Worms which Dragons dragons were called worms early. I think that's that's a huge promotion. We've given dragons that worms worms wolves and word was and the reason. I'm saying it really is because every time it's spelled it's spelled differently so you can say was awarded award. Wasser any way you like. It is now one of the spelling is waterhouse which is pg. What house gets his name. Size as descended from yetis. Do you agree with that. I do but for different theories. No you do remember. John wall stuff. We've mentioned him before friend of the podcast and he was maybe the inspiration for full stuff. It was and he was narrow at the Battle of car and joan apart came into paris and all that kind of stuff. Yeah he had a big old tapestry with word woes in his whole yeah so that they were big. Well you you'll say. They quite in architecture and cathedrals one example of where word was or in fact green men the sole descendant of word was a his is norwich cathedral and that is because they were very common in reef bosses which we know lot about 'cause they featured heavily in our last year's book the in two thousand nineteen and that's why if you're a member in norwich cathedral erected helter skelter the last year. So you could that if you if the roof bosses i mentioned it because i love that referenced. Who was the guy who decided to put the slide in. And he was inspired when he visited. The sistine chapel and the thing he thought as he looked at the ceiling. The sistine chapel was that norwich cathedrals decorations were every bit as wonderful. But just up to be. Yeah sistine chapel. They have they recently. Because it's such a pain to look up constantly. You gotta kinda creek in your neck. If you're in that and you always have to look crichton cup so they. I think just installed swings so that you get rid with us the selwyn. I just wanted to let you know that we are supposed to this week by yet next. That's right yes. I is a company which provides powerful proper search engines for your company's website. And the thing is that so. Many companies don't have decent search engines on their own website. Most business websites aren't even answer. 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No such thing to get your ninety day free trial now over the podcast on with the show. Okay it's time for our final factor. The show and that is an my thought. This week is that there's a single termite in brazil does the same size as great britain fake home. It's not yeah i do. I want say it bit. Shut your mouth. It's not a single termite. it's a single home but it is might living since the kids have left. Were rallied around the. It's the size of great britain and the size with great embrace the bedroom taxes taken. It's toll on these online. This is just incredible. It was only confirmed a couple of years ago only so discovered a couple of years ago when they've been clearing this pasture in brazil for agriculture and stuff. Twenty or thirty years and people started noticing. They were loft mountains around and eventually twenty eighteen. Some decide to do a proper study of a survey of it. There were two hundred million termite mounds piles of excavated termite spreads across something. This is a great britain So all across brazil and not really notice before then the people who lives there knew that there were these termite mounds kind of gossip about it. Wasn't scientists came along these massive amounts. They were want. It wasn't quite that Because that time that minds a quite solid they would just built the houses around the one they would. You know they did your gardening. You'd like to barbecue or something on avoca a slide down it for the kids. It's amazing as well isn't it because it's a single termite species that's been working on this and the amount of they've looked into the amount of soil that they've managed to excavate that sits on top of the earth and they say that it's equivalent to four thousand great pyramids of giza the amount that they've managed in all these years mazing. It's extraordinary some of them are as old as the pyramids so all of these released seven hundred years old. Give or take a few years. And they're up to three thousand eight hundred years old and that's just from the eleven that they've properly studied the age of safer so some of them could be held than that but that is roughly the age of a lot of pyramids. Now they've said it actually the minimum estimate of their range and it's like four thousand years old is the minimum might be twice as old as that. They've studied so far. And let you say is one family because they thought that. Must be lots of different species of termites arrivals but they took a bunch of times from one pilot and then put them with a bunch of thomas maneuver anita expect them to fight and they got along like we're like family like a happy family and so and they basically proved that this is just one home to you know how they found out how old they are cool. What they did was they dug into the bottom of one of these piles of earth and they took out a little birth and there's a technique which is really complicated. So i won't go into it but you can kind of fi leases at this earth and light look at what happens to the electrons and you work the less tied that it was exposed to sunlight. So they can just work. It's so clever. It's like compensating for things have not been alive and you just buy your laser on it. And they'll tell you when the last time it was in the sun hot. Let's so lever wesson clever. We're here talking about how clever these termites are not give us. I mean kicking ass when we say we is the scientists. Because when i say it's complicated i don't want to go into it partly. It's because i don't really understand that we can take credit. I would just to tom my architects that built this whole thing but the rest of the time is going. God we're impressive. Anway taking credit species but they're not even not even proper mounts like other termites build. Say sometime is build of chimneys or or ventilation things these would just described but the scientists to work on this project as slag piles because all they live underground. All it is. They're making space for their chambers underground. So they make vertical hole to the surface and then they chuck the soil out of those holes and over time that builds up into however told these two meters two and a half meters. I mean imagine what's underground. This huge cathedrals base that they emptied out and they were first discovered by a few scientists. But one particular a guy called steven martin. Who's an entomologist university assaulted. And he doesn't even care about. Termites is an expert in giant killer. Hornets the things that actually. We should just call giant hornets these days. Just big on. It's not supposed to orleans snyder harlot. So that's to. But he's an expert in those guys and he was in brazil looking for some bees because he wanted to see how the bees on in in brazil and then as he was going down the road. He was like wait a minute. Well those those things and why are they so regular of why are they in like a pattern and that was when they worked out that it was all the same species. Actually it's worth saying if this has been mentioned or even if it's assumed by the listener but that's still these mounds. This is an active house. It's not it's not dead. It's not like a fossilized old abandoned great britain. It's it's an active thing. Great britain surrey enough anyway so term is a pretty incredible and possibly the most incredible. My is the queen. So they've got a queen base structure like bees and other species and england and much like in england. The termite queen is the only fertile number and who she is super fertile. The time i mean. And she basically spends her entire life incessantly mason so she chooses a male to mate with and then she spends the subsequent fifteen to twenty sometimes years constantly shaking him and she'll make one egg every three seconds so in her lifetime she makes over a quarter of a billion eggs constantly producing them. Is there a kingdom might've producers all the kingdom i. He's was quite funny about them is that she's about hundred times. Bigger than here's anyone else in the so. He's is microscopic thing. She's next him and the reason she said largest because she is one giant ovary and do please look on youtube. The picture of a queen time with eggs inciter so she's like this big pulsating trump's parent lump that's full of eggs and you can see the eggs bubbling and moving around inciter onto her surface. And yes she. She can't move so awful being the queen. Because you're stuck. She can't fail the door of her enclosure anymore. Scott move at tool so she depends totally on members of colony to washer to feed her to lick the sweat off her. She's just started as termite queen. We're talking about. I'm just gonna dole thing seems to be a bit of a mystery because if you've got house the size of great britain you'd think you could make the doors a bit bigger to fit your leader of such going. Oh man. that's a good point. Tom is usually have quite small bills. They have like termite sized dolls and she doesn't want to go anywhere either. She's to this huge body of her legs tiny compared with the breeding massive her. If you gave her a big door it would just be horrifying the her lungs. You couldn't even get through it because she can't move tricking the basically saying oh you could go everywhere but the doors a too small shame but she never. The dauphin is quite important in termites because a lot of them can't really defend themselves very well they can do a little bit of squirting horrible stuff out of their anus. But there's not really much they can do if they're attacked and so usually what they'll do is like a few different insects. They'll come back into their dog. And then use the head as a block to stop anything else from coming into the dark and so basically then anything coming in will have to get past that one door head and then another dog had would go into their place and then that stops anyone from getting into the tunnels and that is interesting as well. Because twenty eighteen in japan they found the first all female termite colonies. Where all of the termites usually you would have. Kings would have lots of male soldiers and stuff like that a male workers but this one is all females and the reason that they think it works is that that males are lots of different sizes but the females are all exactly the same size and so they can have ahead which will exactly fit in the door every single time. And you're not sometimes going to have someone who heads a bit too. Big are a bit too small and so by just having females in this colony. It means that they're have less chance of being attacked which makes up for the lack of genetic. Change that you kind of need males and females for this nice. That's really cool. Like they're the eye care. Dole blockers a very basic specifications. All the same. It's gonna fit together snow. Also we do take advice from termites on building these days so they are particularly good ventilation which is something that we all quite bader. Because the amount of ventilation cost the atmosphere greenhouse gas emissions. The cetera is so massive. So we're now building buildings inspired by their ventilation systems. There's this place in zimbabwe way which was the first massive building is big shopping center who eastgate center and office block inspired by termite systems. And what they do is they have this system of opening and closing doors that they're constantly tending to make sure the air comes in the right places moves up through the termite mounds that is heated in the right places. It's cooled in the right places because it needs to be a one precise temperature the whole time on the inside of them to be able to survive so yeah and they make the reason that they work so well as the termite mounds catch the wind so it blows through them so so mound is like a lung and the wind comes in to them and then is absorbed by the various bits the cells that need it if you want to go into this shopping center. There's a security guard with his head blocking the dog always female. Yeah that's amazing and another good thing because they ventilated so well. They make really good ovens so in south africa. You'll get people where they'll take termite mound and they'll kind of drill a little hole make the door a little bit bigger. Hopefully it's saotome might mound. Were all the time out south. I hope but they'll sat little fire inside. And then the air will be sucked in through the door and then go up through the top of the termite mound because so well ventilated. Brilliant on. It means that you can cook like pizza in there or you know anything that needs a high temperature cook inlet. Do they warn the termites demolition. Derby a sign up saying three weeks time this will be turned into an often cleese vacate. You're just hoping that their old ones. You don the ashes of termites on your pizza taking it out of the oven s delicacy. What do people do eat. Termites sent they fused into muffins in certain countries. Yeah so it's it's possible. The yeah termite. Pizza is a thing. Yeah do you know. They transfer water across their mounts. So sometimes a bit of the mound gets really dry at a needs needs moistening lubrication. This is so cool. They drink half their body weight in water. They go to a dry part of the mountain and pass it into another. Termites mouth is basically all the water. Yeah and the scientists called j scott tannen. Who fed them. Fluorescent dyed water and could see it moving from one town to another so basically. It's like it's as if a bucket trained to put out a fire. Was people just cool water into each others out suffering. That's friendly isn't it. It's not very covered friendly but it would make firefighting a sexy profession and it already is. Is it what is it to make. Sure i think it would make a much less effective profession because every time you would swallow a little bit of the water by the time it got to the final five and it would just be a little dribble coming out of his obviously people with enormous mouths to hold much good so the physical profile of the firefighter might change change in the system. I'm sorry i just clarify just as you see your house being brought down at least have something sexy to look at watching your life got destroyed. I is this to moisten the other side and is this to give a drink to the people on the other side to moisten the other side. So it's sort of it's but they then go and spit the water out on the on the actual mound itself. That's incredible yeah. They never sleep as well. Termites don't sleep really. Yeah they're just building twenty four hours a day until they die. Do they rest. Do they have like a nap or not. He must have downtime exactly. They might play the xbox real while in fact. I think i've read that. They normally like. Dan says they just all all active. But if they run out of holes to fill they stand around touching each other tonight so that might be their equivalent of known well the other queen wrestle grass their entire life and then her life really tragically because her children let her to death. She sort of she dies in tragic way that she lives. She stops being useful stocks laying eggs and so kids like lic licnen. Liquor joined the fat and fluids out for and she just disintegrates away. God sexy imagery lorenzo. Okay that's it. That is all of our facts. Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to get in contact with any of us about the things that we've set over the course of this podcast. We can be found on our twitter accounts. I'm on at schreiber. Land andy but andrew hunter james james hocken and anna you can email polka dot. Yep or you can get group account which is no such thing or our website. No such thing as a fish dot com all previous episodes Do check it out. And that's it will be back again next week with another episode. We will see you then good.
224. A Posh Perspective
"This episode is supported by Progressive Insurance where customers save an average of over seven hundred and fifty dollars when they switch and save visit Progressive Dot Com to get your car insurance quote. It only takes about seven minutes national annual average auto insurance savings by new customer survey, twenty, nine, thousand nine potential savings will vary. Have you heard about ocean blue? That's a better way to well mega formulated by expert. It has great taste and no fishy burbs, in more Omega threes, and fewer capsules available on Amazon or ask your pharmacist about ocean blue, a better way to Omega. Hello everybody's who's taken out on. Big Bet squirrelled beautiful, anonymous, one hour and phone call no names no-holds-barred. I'd rather no one on one. I think it'll be more fun man. Sending No. I've already Chris gathered here. Welcome the beautiful anonymous. Now the episode. Not to talk about from recent episodes, things I want to just address then. We'll get into this week's episode which I think very good combination of serious fun. First off, though couple things going on, let it to pass that sort. One few weeks back. We had our. Caller who was about to head off to college with gotten into Columbia was heading to state school instead out. Keep an eye on family helped. Get some finances together. Bunch of the people in our facebook group. Very kindly. Said I would I would start something and throw some money towards the caller, and we actually jared reached out to the caller and said. Would you want people to organize this in the caller? Very graciously said I'm flattered. It's not what I'm looking for right now, but did recommend that if you are interested in helping people in similar situations that you check out the dream, dot us. They focus on providing scholarships to people in. cirumstances not too far away from what the caller was dealing with. Check out the dream. Dot Us if you're looking for something along those lines for like callers requests. what else the sexual lunch lady! people loved that episode. I'm glad people liked it. The A sexual lunch lady is now in the facebook group participating in the Combo. Check it out if you're interested speaking of the facebook group. The stocked by my ex episode. He's got a little testy I was in there People, a couple people were. Upset that I said that I see the value in maybe defunding the police and diverting those funds towards some other parts of our infrastructure. Get why people are mad. I'll say if you're mad at me. Come at me. I was little. I was a little stressed. I feel like that facebook group has been so a lovely and laid back, and all about honest communication, and there was some game playing in there. If you ask my opinion, I never want the group to be. Something so stressful that people feel feel like they got duck out. There's enough of that on facebook. It's enough stress in our lives caused by social media. That group is a pleasant place this week's episode like I said part serious part funny. The second half is so funny. involves a big fat squirrel in Bolton, action, movie and Mohsen. ICE, cream fight. Loves the Queen of England. The. The first half is an English caller talking with me about sorting out all the social stuff happening in America how some things translate! Me Trying to figure out what things as an American do I have to explain more her explain to me no I. Get it talking about her own. Identity and how she's come to embrace it more during these times so again. If you're looking for the serious part of the show first-half, right up your alley, funny stuff second-half. You could skip to that I recommend you. Listen to both enjoy Thank you for calling beautiful anonymous. A beeping noise will indicate when you're on the with the host. Hello. I there we go hi. So sorry bet all this rigmarole as they say. Now, did you happen to hear? Did you happen to hear me? Shout towards. I'm so sorry that I'm shirtless in wet I. Don't know if you caught that. No I didn't hear about good. Good good. Yes, there's A. Reducing the show via zoom lately, so when I got back on the zoom with jared I need I said that because there's a a tropical storm outside of my house right now, so I put out the call prompt. And then ran outside to throw everything I own in the basement and now I'm back and we're talking. Wow. There's a stolen there. Yeah Tropical Storm, which is like not quite a hurricane. So if my power goes out I, apologize and we'll just call you back another time. That's my problem. I mean I'm from. You can probably hear from my accent. I'm from the UK so phones on something that I deal with in my experience. It's not a daily thing, but a couple of times a year. What part of the U K are you? London. London Beautiful London? Great Town Great Town. Can't be. A fast paced town that also grind you up is the impression I get, but a great town just like New York. It'll grind you up, but it's got a lot to offer. Yeah. That's true. It's. It's a kind of lived here. My whole life But in the next ten years on hosting Snoop Island and so my completely different. Oh Wow, why are you moving Ireland? My girlfriend is from Ireland and. If I can, if like. We got married and so if we got married and. I can have an amish possible I'm all. Again. And you'll be fellow. Irish passport holder I. Have I have my passport from Ireland? Because I know you have Irish descent, right? I got the right of return. They call it so since my grandparents were born there. I. I was able to file. The paperwork can become an Irish citizen, and that means my son an Irish citizen as well. Which means that you know I? Try not to be too paranoid. About the state of the world, but if we do descend into total chaos here in America, we can duck out. Get over the Emerald Isle for a few years. Ride things out. That's exactly how I feel. I, mean I, I I'm a variety of different ethnicities and My family was swift and. I'm I'm also taught Indian as well and so especially with everything. That's been happening in the UK lately. I kind of feel. I Dunno I feel very way about my britishness in life of. Talking and I feel more European. And I like that I know of the in your anymore and I also have Irish descent. My great grandfather was Irish but I've never had that possible so i. Wouldn't feel to me to have sports. It's not make sense. Sure sure. Citizen of the world. It's it's very a- as an American. We we take up so much room. That being an American, it's like everything. Is Self contained within the borders? America's far as how do you identify as an American and being from different reasons what it means, but I have always been very fascinated as you said. The idea of Britishness is is a very specific thing in the idea of being European. Very specific thing, and it feels like especially being European at always kinda shifts over what exactly that means, and it's very Yes. It's very fascinating to watch from afar because I can't quite decipher it. It's kind of hard being in it as well and also. for me I even though like I'm seventy five percent white. I'm only a quarter Indian but I look very Indian. I have the DACA skin and dark hair and dot, highs and everything, and so I noticed over the last. Since Brexit, just another racist and the IB. Sorry another bracelet from the I personally experienced just increased and increased especially in my line of work. and. I was born here and I really had no. Links to my Indian heritage, because my I never knew my family I'd always felt very briefly. And now has been telling me, but I don't long hair or that. I should good box where I'm from. and. It's very difficult. Being told that you should go by the way you're from when you from I'm from England how I feel. And very strange to have. An increase. You know what I mean. Absolutely so that's something that's actually been said to you. Oh, yes, I walk for a company that has English and its title and somebody wants to me. How can you walk for? The English I won't play if you're not from England I'm that was before I even opened my mouth and said. And as you can hear from my accent I was definitely born here because I would pretend this. Wasn't from here I sound like. Twice in my opinion. To. Can you repeat a posh what? Like of course. I mean I wish a private school To somebody else in this country in private school, yes. Myself as a young child I sounded very pretentious. Hated it I really really hate that. I found this way. Then my girlfriend from Ireland says that it makes me sound very Like I know what I'm talking about. But. I really felt like my. Family me about it all the time. It's funny. There's there's. You go different places and different words get tossed around, and there's less impact and I will say as an American I'm sure you're where I feel like I feel like The English toss around the word. Thuat very casually. That one has yeah. That's when we hear it in America. It's shocking to us. Which is which is why I? Know I didn't. I didn't mean it that way. No, of course, that's why when. I was talking about myself. Yes yes, no, and it is. It's one of those things you go. Different places and different things have different impact, and that's why I wanted to make sure you said that before I. Repeat it because if I just. If. I may go I thought you said posh twice, and you're like I didn't say that I would feel. Describe ably guilty indescribably embarrassed so. I'm glad. I need it in this. No Nice show now. I I meant in the sense that like. When I when I cook I feel like I found very posh I feel. Like my accent. Much me, I, hear you I hear you. That's just like in the states we have. A piece of apparel call the fanny pack and I've been told over and over again. Do not refer to it as that in England very different connotations. Very different connotation yeah, what? Yeah now that we've had that sidetrack where I got taken aback and plush too little. I'm so sorry. Well I'm so sir, it's. It's the reality of things that a lot of people don't want to deal with right. You, hear about all over the world that that There's been this shift to you. Know this far right influence. That's dragging everybody to the right and. Everybody's politics that are their own. Some people at that way, but then. To hear from you the actual collateral damage. No actually someone has told me I'm not from where I'm from. People have actually said to me. Why don't you go back where you? Are from this is. This is a day to day. Ground level thing that. People running into it's it's gotta be very jarring. It is You know like everything that's been happening in the state regarding black lives, matter and how that has spread around the world. like for me, personally. Somebody who's next race. It's been really hard for me to figure out where exactly I should. Stein and I don't mean not by saying. I was like people because about competely, not why point what I'm saying? Is that especially the way the media portray it? To me anyway, being my own personal experiences I would never try and put my pin or anybody else. It feels very a binary. You know it's very. Like the is white. And Of course. That's important I always kind of. Trying to be a bit like a stage United States you have. And? You have the black people who were standing on one side. Who is paying this Mike and this is how I have been treated. And then you have on the other side of you know white people who are listening and then can use that privilege I fly voices, and that's very very important. And I'm not trying to say about snowden important. For me when I when I look at this stage, I see myself in both sides. You know because I understand that I don't have. You know as much as as. Some people they. Also, very strange about not talking about my experiences, and he's fighting. Compete you as. I need to recognize my own privilege. because. I, if it was with me to not talk about my experiences of races, but also don't want to tread on the toes. The people who created this movement who it's about. The kind of make sense. Does, it does and. It's. It's so fascinating to hear. You from across the ocean. What a fascinating thing to hear you sorting out black lives matter, which is such A. Such a you know a people are marching in the streets every day in the states. And it's so fascinating because yeah. Some of it's just semantic right and some of it's it's. It's it's very. It's very wild. You know, hear you say that. It feels black versus white and I'm sure that there are elements. which that's true, but I will say from being an American Tony Very international listeners. I feel like the. The real issue is that I, think for? Black-americans it has felt black versus white. Since? The founding of our country and I think for a lot of white people. It's been. You know we try to convince ourselves over and over again that things are have changed. And this is actually the first time in my lifetime. that it feels like it's black uniting. With White. by and large, and then, and then, and there are some amongst us who do vehemently do not agree, but it's. It's funny I had. An English fan of the show sent me a message after hearing me say. Let me. Be Very clear that I support black lives, matter on the show and an English listener actually message me on facebook and said. How can you say that all lives matter? It's not just black lives, matter and I said. Oh well. We talked it out. He's very very upset at first, and there's a part of me that just wanted to be. So emotional over here right now all of us that I wanted to just be like fuck off, you know. But I realize. Oh, there's there's some translation here. What I compared it with to him was the phrase all lives matter. Is. It's it's very strange because that, too many of us here who are on the liberal end of politics and progressive it actually comes off as racist, but I think to anybody from the outside looking in, they would go. Will always matter. And I said to him I feel like it's almost an i. you get it I. Think you see that. I, completely, I absolutely hate the phrase is not. Because the whole point of it, it's like it's no one is saying. You know. You pick one Black lives and suddenly elevated about everybody else doesn't change anything else, or it's not to compete completely missing the point. But I think maybe the passion you spoke to is coming from is but when you all in the UK. UK is such a guide thus country, but purely because of the Anti. You know not sleeping which I'm just me. The people don't know enough about in this country. Is you know like the stuff that the pot the. Empire it's not even in the curriculum in most of the schools in this country, people aren't aware that the things that England did. I'm doing it because of that, but we have people from all around the world and have in the country. How the wind rush generation came to this country, and then withhold the then all this is in the UK went in invaded their country and watch them to come. After the war which? The UK did. Yeah so the wind rush generation so. Basically the UK. When and you know, see, colonize tasted like Jamaica and so on. And then the these countries Ford's with the UK in world, War Two, and then after World War convey, came game and for the life I'm. His. was than you know, go to on the floor. and. Not being image citizens despite the fact that they actually were. they were invited to come and help pad the country. Also the wall and that children are being. Treated. You know so racist in this country because. People in our reminded. These people came to England. Author will because of I'm saying you have a whole range of different people who live in this country. People in India for example like my family. and. I when I was saying you know, it's still very binary like lacking white. I mean. My country is that. People need to wake up and realize that there are so many people living in this country that. are treated as second bath. And I know that state has had a very like stomach racist. You know. Well what she ship with Black Americans, but I understand that. But this country has it with a whole range of. People Brown block everything in between. I think this has been a massive wakeup call for. Most people in my country, not all of them. Yeah. It's such a strange time so much to say in response to that and it's Is Really I. Just say it's already very cool to talk to you because you've got clearly both a lot of emotion about it, but also a lot of knowledge as a good Combo and. you know there's so many responses I have one is I. Think you know I think part of what black lives matter. Deals with if we want to talk about like the historical roots and I'm no expert, so this is just one. Average citizens opinion is that I think I think that. I think the states actually. To what you described the UK of from everywhere. I think. One of the things because I certainly think. I certainly think Hispanic people have. Felt like there's so. You know. So much more danger the past few years because of things surrounding an immigration, I certainly think you can look at every wave of immigrants in our in our country's history, I think. Asian people for you know the reason the reason there's so many Chinese restaurants in. America, if I am remembering, my history correctly is because there were so many deportations of Chinese. Immigrants unless you worked in the food industry. You could get a visa and that's part of why it was. Get deported or work in food like it's. Part of even going back to the Irish Irish need, not apply signs go back to the Italians at people regarded as like anarchists, not to be trusted, but I think the issue that a lot of us are finally coming to grips with. Is that all of those immigrant groups and some? You know you know certainly the Irish and Italian because the color of their skin. It's easier. They've gotten more of a chance to grow generally generation only. And fight their way into all the beautiful things America has to offer and like I said. I'm probably pissing people off right now. Who are going? My group has not had that chance and I understand that it's varying degrees of success, but I think we can all agree that black Americans have been here from the start in the most fucked up circumstances and remain today in the most fucked up circumstances, so it's like when are when are we going to give this? Incredibly important. Community that has helped. Build this nation in arguably a fair shot. Can we just get a fair shot going? Yeah, and then as far as you talked about this. You could. You could probably argue that what's happening in. America right now goes back to English colonization. We were American colonies and slave owning colonies. Everywhere in the world. Say That I'm. I I mean this is something I I talk with my girlfriend quite a bit because you know she has Irish. Mean her family starring back generations who still remember the time when in the UK they was. Saying no blocks dogs no Irish. You know and she also appreciate the. And she is white I'm sorry. Champion, able to like how countries able to reclaim some sense of. You know if you could them to find the humanity again. which you know, Americans. Really don't have the same of to black with like with the glow I mostly when you were saying about how black Americans came and you know help, build this country, or your country is the same what I feel about not Indians under Jamaicans this country. Like I was saying about win. Rush how they came over and how? We build the country off the wall. And then concur, there's nothing. And That's something I feel. I feel quite strongly about any known my Indian. How many Boutwell? In fact, they only I only two. They were about three years ago. Let's go ahead and pause because we have to sometimes right. That's how the show works. We pause every now and then. What we do is we reflect on the things we've heard when we come back. We hear either. So that's what's about to happen, we'll be right back. 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Alien I only skull do they were about three years ago? by doing my research online manage just wanted me down. But I felt no closer to my Indian fide from having found them. And It's Kinda stuff time that I really felt proud to be. Indian because. In the past it was always something negative especially for my family. and I'm trying to like. It took me a long time to watch. People say you know what I am Brown. Because for a long time. My mom never talked about the fact that she was Brown. And I was full. Brown because it. Reminded her of her father was never a good thing so I would say white and. If. There's anything good that's come out of. This is the fact that I actually still like I know who I am, both are now. Cool. Has Come you. With the negativity of being told. Oh you're not white enough to be white. You're not brown enough to be Brown either. Because I get bad I noticed well. But, I actually feel like I. Know My my own identity. That's now. That's an amazing thing. That's an amazing thing that all of this negativity, and all this fear I bet, there's people all over the globe right now going you know what? I, I have to whether it's embrace. My background more than I have or. Fight for my background more than I ever have and not sit down. If, we can get that mobilized for people in the world. Would a beautiful thing. Yeah and I like I've I've always felt the especially. People like me because I. I can't even in the sun, and that's when my skin my income, the changes very drastically because during the summer that I experienced more racism because I actually got about ten shades also I felt like I was defined by who I. I was like I was define who I goes in the pays who I am you want want you to know, or you are not Brown enough or you. Can't. You know English enough for your no. You're not nothing now. I'm saying. No I am mixed race. And I'm actually proud to say about now when I wasn't about three or four years ago. Hell Yeah. I like I. Hate hearing that it's laced with so much. Questioning. And strife I love hearing. You say that sentence I'm proud of WHO I am now. I can't say that was true for years ago. That's that's. Really fucking cool. I think that's the also for where I am in life right now anyway. And I. In terms of many different aspects of my life I'm actually proud of who I am at the moment. When I wouldn't have imagined myself, saying not the cost so. I'm proud of myself for that. Now I gotta ask. I just heard this song. You would love this song. You'RE GONNA. Love this song. Do you know this artist punk artist English name Bob Villain. Wa L. A. and though like Bob Dylan. Do. You know Bob Dylan. That's how that song we live here. Do you know that one. What. What Song Sorry we live here? I don't know that one. This song first of all it rocks this brock's S. If you like punk music, the yeah, it's basically a song about him being. Not White living in England and people constantly telling him to go home and the whole song. The premise is basically him going. I'm from here I live here. I was born here. and. It has a lyric where. Here I looked I'm googling it now. The lyrics he has lyric in the song that goes. You told me to go back to my own country said since we arrived, this places got so ugly, but this is my fucking country, and it's never been fucking lovely I heard that I was like. Wow, man, that's. Out that's this is. That's Punk rock that this is not like my pop punk songs about boys who can't get the girl that I grew up. That's. PUNK rock. Yeah and that that America is very much nineteen right now. People. We're going to get on the I mean especially especially the. Like Yeah like 'cause I told you I went to a private school. And I was knocking sense that I was pulled in history and notice things I think a Lotta of people on taught in this country. And So even as a young kid like. One of the things that we we were told in his feelings about nicely. I've yet to find somebody in this country who I've said also mostly to and they go. Oh, yeah, who that is! when united who he is probably not being the states the on off the question before I explained I must admit my ignorance who is Oswald mostly? So also mostly was the leader of the be us, which was the British Union of Fascists and he was around the time hitting annisten. Dini one power. And he was trying to do the same thing that they were doing. And he was getting a lot of support from British people, and he was very much up and coming until a point, where he tried to walk through the east of Nandan and smashed the windows of the. Homes by the Jewish people wouldn't have been. And The population of the east end came out onto the street and said you will not much here. These are our. Our. Neighbors our friend. You do not much here and they blocked him. And he couldn't end up coming down the road I'm from then on he. He got to find his much. And from that point, onwards his. He started to decline in popularity for often until about thirty nine. Still had a lot of support in this country. and. I, think not people don't realize that thinking. Not Never happened in the UK not GonNa be thing that we are associated where we were the ones. And Yeah. He had a lot of support. And And people should be proud the. Yes! We may have supported this guy. But, we even the one eventually stopped him, but no no one. He's Cape from history. No one ever talks about him because it's better. That we never had any connection to fascism nineteen. Even admit that we did. I was cool with this. You know always fixing. and. That I was like okay. There's some things I need to learn about. Because other people are gonNA think about this. And, so I really made it my. I don't know I just try to as much as I could I love reading I? Believe anything in front of me so? I'm not done on. I, love to discuss things. I did my. Best to try and educate myself. And That's why I know a lot of things about like you know the. Things in this country, I think more people should know about. I think the American version of Moseley and maybe there's more appointed examples. I'm not smart enough to know, but we had the bund. The Boone B. U. N. D. and a lot of Americans are never taught about this, said a German organization. That! Before. World War Two became. Pro Not see. and. You might think it was a small fringe group. No, no, no, they had a rally that sold out Madison Square Garden which is the known as the world's most famous arena, and there's footage of it. It's chilling. Fascism can happen anywhere, but we gotta be like Woody Guthrie Woody Guthrie. Put it right on his guitar. This machine kills fascists man and I'm not saying murder people. I am saying. Stop it in its tracks every time you see it, you have to all her responsibility. Yeah Yeah. I don't think is nice that no means. No If you? If you stop thinking, he's thinking know it could never happen here. Thoughts club him. To be you have. Case, it and you have to feel best to. What is right? Well I said it on the show before, but I feel like I gotta say it every chance I get. We spent. After World War Two. We said never again about the Holocaust. There's concentration camps in China right now. There's kids still being held in cages in America right now. We said never again for almost eighty years. Now it's happening again. And we're not doing enough to stop. It's scary. Now. I could talk about this the whole time. We're at thirty minutes. I did have. Had a question about something you mentioned you. Sit something off. Hand it before I'm not sure 'cause if you WANNA. Keep going on this. I'm I'm ready to go. We got some shared opinions and a very interesting life with it, so I don't want to divert it if you're not into it. I'm fine I i. have I have many things can talk about United States go ahead. Austin thank you want well. You had mentioned that you. Are Hoping to marry your girlfriend and. moved to Ireland EU passports still identifies European, but you said if I, if I, can marry my girlfriend. I wrote that down and I'm wondering. What that's rooted in. Oh I I just in in the fact that You know we've been living together for a year and a half now and we. We want to get married The public finances. Ways the problem and because of. Because the. Situation has been happening. I found out two weeks ago that I've I've lost my job. I on Allah for a while, which meant that I didn't have to work, but I still got money but now my company is no more money, so I now have no income and Michael hundred during a mosque. And so she was students. does she has no income and. Talking another call. In two weeks. SO I. Need my money coming in right now. which is a little bit of a worry? So. I'm hoping we can get to the point where we can help to find on select. Get married, but that seems unknown. Way I'll try now. I'm very sorry to hear that I'll have to say kinda relieved. Because I thought you were going to say, you can't get married. Because of societal issues or family issues problem with lifestyle. Some kind of safety just hear that its own now I mean I I have my family. Issues doubt without with my family, and that was interesting time My mom even tries to throw ice cream and Michael. Thanks, one time, which was says aw I. Now, so it's not nothing to be with family or anything. Her family's amazing. Your mom through is cream at your girlfriend. Yeah in the street in front of as in. What slavery. Strange curation I feel like the flavors her out coconut. Wow, that's real. That's real anger coconut. This is not this is not some yeah. Common Vanilla that you can get everywhere. This is coconut. You might not be able to find that again. This is. Stuff. stop she calls from the. Farm Shop. It was expensive. It's like Artisanal I. WanNa see. Think I I think I don't think ice cream, but knows about ice cream with the greatest tragedy of that day. The. My mom tried to grow ice cream and half base. It was more of the fact that the three expensive vice being for an on the ground. How you GonNa wait a Lotta money and I and this is because, and this is because your mom was reconciling issues with your sexuality at the time. my. My mom is a very interesting character. And you're right and I had a I have a very strange relationship because it basically in short. What happened that day is? she tried to tell me about how me being with my girlfriend was tearing the family apart which it wasn't. I left the house because I want to go with. She came outside the House and started chasing me down the street yelling. Don't you walk away from me? Then you realize how hard to say has been me because. On that day are to clear out my own bedroom. Because she told me that I had to get all my stuff out of the house. And then my girlfriend Conrad to the friendly and says don't you realize how hot it's been served? You know for me. to which my mom she likes to say. She was defending me. That's a very short that was like a very short condensed version of what not say no. I I can't imagine. There's a lot of exposition that builds up to that moment. A the bullet points are fascinating, and and do you think that? Do you think that when your mom's saw that expensive melting coconut, delicious, creamy ice cream on the on the floor. That, it was any part of her. Saying I have to get a half to get away from my own personal biases because this is. Scott, I'm just kidding I'm just kidding on this. On. I mean honestly it took me having to go and sit down with her like one on one on me. Being like look, this behavior is childish. You call me going. Scarring is current people's faces, because because you don't agree with what Baid says. It's like me, think parents can my entire and with honesty. Something I've done for most of my teenage years, but it was just me. Look I have boundaries, or you're trying to like all phases live. You are coughing I'm I'm so sorry. To me links. I think this is a year and a half ago now. Like friend per apologized friend, she was like. He wants to have my fake. What am I saying? That is. A wild conversation with your own mom, mom. You cannot throw ice cream at my girlfriend ever again. The type of sentence that. Impossible to predict that anyone would ever say maybe the only time. It's ever been set in human history. Think about that. Millions if not billions of years. And you said the sentence, mom, you cannot throw coconut ice cream at my girlfriend. I mean to be honest I until a therapist so many things I've had to say come on over the years, but I don't think many people would. But Yeah I've had I taught to have these conversations I'm like okay, mom, if not her case because this, this is bad behavior not. Okay sorry. Wow so then you're in these classes to be therapist. and. They're teaching about human psychology and their talk. I imagine there's all these moments along the way where you're going. Dared talking about my my mom deals with this. Are there moments like that? Does. This is how my mom does a single. This is how my sister deals with things. Oh, that's just how my father does things, my hope founder and you're very weird. Girlfriend likes me like I. Don't know how you are even somewhat same coming out of stock calmly. On myself as Well, I'm really glad you are. Because you're, it's very very, and it's very interesting to talk to you about both societal. And personal. Traumas I'm sorry that you lost your job. That's very stressful. Yeah I mean it'd be honest. It's not a joke that I picked me like Missing, not being there I'm just missing the money aspect of it. Really I normally walk in theater so then he goes to about my bike at watch things on stage for free, but dealing with. The public is not always the easiest of job. I have many interesting stories about my time walking and say as soon as well. Is it like west end stuff yet on the West End. Yeah and I I'm I'm Paul Management Team a fairly large better. And so I. I, have you know? Anybody who were? Always have like. That one big story. He goes latest things that's happened to them. And then you just told me a whole bunch of other stories. They can tell as well like my my fake story when. One Guy. Bear in mind I'm only School for eleven. I'm very short for my age. I'm I'm one guy. Hunch me in the face. I've just because he wanted to get on Spain. Yeah Gordon Mind about forty forty five, I would guess. He tried to get on stage and I wouldn't move three. Punch me in the face. Now that's a place to stop. That's. That's a big. Pause right there. It's called the cliffhanger. Be Right back. What's up listeners? This is Jackie's Neil from culture kings, and I just wanted to let you know about a project that I am curated for ear will presents called black voices Friday each week I am going to present to you. A different podcast hosted by some amazing black voices and creators that you may not have heard about before. This is much to amplify black voices in your chance to support them, so join me every Friday on of presents to expand your ears and get to know some amazing black voices. Everybody the brakes are over. Let's finish off the phone call. Three Punch me in the face like get on stage, Wallet Production. was in process. Because show's happening. Constant. Had A concert on stage. Lewis if he nine thousand feet. Who is that? Faith! Hand LEERING LOUIS HE wasn't xbox a winner. So forty five year old man is trying to storm the stage to physically touch. A talented winner of a reality show, and you are in the line of fire and get punched in the face. Yes, and then he knocks near the, but then I did what a child would do, and I grabbed his leg I tried to shake me off my. Black to secure tame. Like bitcoin mind you claiming woman just. Like. That was the situation. Sorry fame I have to imagine. Security had no qualms stepping in on that. Want to get that Guy Outta there. No, say then they they were very good about it and then, but then one of my calling my manager. Did you know that she got punched in the face and he put it. into think when he was like Oh crap. Get punched. That's the unfunny reality postscript that story. I also feel bad because. A lifelong fan of Morrissey last few years I haven't been listening to stuff as much because he said so many really off putting things, but I have jumped on stage and touched Morrissey. So I've been. I've been that guy. It wasn't over. An X factor winner, but I have jumped a barricade to get on stage and security did. Rightfully so took me out. Yeah, see we! We had Morrissey play at. There's used to walk. Through one of his. He's three one of his clothing into the audience. And this one woman came up to me, and she had all her nails Ritz off because people were scrambling so hard to try and get the clothing was a whole hand with meeting the he won the item and she was like it was worth it. I wonder puff, and I'm like you have your Hondas and Ben. Ship crazy. They love it. He does that every show. People and people tear it to shreds. And Storm State Court now I do have to ask just as someone who has known his work forever. You're in the management. Do you have to deal with this guy backstage? 'cause you hear nothing but bad about his deep abusive fear I mean I. Didn't personally because I thought this was about a while ago. Sir Wasn't a kite in a position that I am now but he had so many rules. in the building and none of us, even the you know. baustoffe. Allows bring. and. Golding whatsoever didn't lock him if he. Didn't say if we bought me in. His security would pay off off and wouldn't bring any about in. Yeah, he he tried to play over the time he was allowed and I think he broke one of the rules. We have to pay a ton of money as well but. Before I was a I was then so I'm not. Aware of anything else. I'll tell you. People given cuff about the meeting. It's showed up a couple of times where people get mad at him for the meeting thing, but he's done that on my TV, show, princes and festivals. But actually. Actually respect them for that one because he's been a lifelong, you know one of the early early public figures who advocated a vegetarian Azam so my that one he's been. Doing since nineteen eighty two, you know. There's part of me that respects in. Yeah, it wasn't him with. The problem is more like his stuff that they are incredibly rude about. Minded I WANNA thing. No one likes being spoken to this eleanor annual child because they happen to forget, bring a ham sandwich and. Get Out, you know. Because we forgot you know. My meeting outside the cokes human. Boy this guy this guy now. What else you got so bad stories I. What else yet to finish the thought yeah! I was just saying like because of where I was I had a whole kind of celebrities as well, and it's always interesting to see which ones are genuine on which one Completely they on a ball. Everybody's there. Some people that I've met the. How they appear on. TV, it's completely different how they would me as a member of stuff. And then some people just completely genuine and. Interesting to me to find out which ones again, you, which ones on I've also worked. Like backstage for things like. You know. America's got talent. Britain's Russian of I watched the ocean for that, but. If interest in seeing how it will be things house as they all have not faith and. Leaping different people saying how genuine now I find that really interesting. Yeah, so much as manipulated. Public images are manipulated. Yeah, any any show that presents I feel like TV is manipulated. It's not it was a much longer process with a lot of. Trimming things taken out of context all of it. We're all being manipulated all the time. In England used England US divide and conquer colonialism to ourselves against each other. And we're all trying to embrace. We are inside. And and Morrissey won't even let you eat a ham sandwich. The whole world world. And then, and then there's the time when I took. My Monitor managed to meet the Queen so. I'm wondering. What was it I wasn't supposed to be. But I, yeah, the que- game when I just found out that job and so i. Get myself into position. I was the one thing McQueen and I could just see my angry monitor. Face the dog staring at me like you're not meant to be there and I was like oh I'm here now so I go clean. The box and everything was quite fun. Though is that must be cool to meet the Queen? But a lot of people don't like. A lot of cool, a lot of people say the royals is like an outdated thing that. Costs everybody a lot of money, but the end of the day. If the queen walks up, you must be like this is fucking cool. Hanging out queen of England I mean I. I've met the Queen. I've met willing cakes. I've not Harry and Meghan met. Prince Child Charles throwing child. I met quite a few of them by now. That's like the whole nuclear family. Pretty, much Just just I? The kids the whole. Card Stranger, crazy And are any of them? Like shockingly chill I won't ask for the negative stories the tabloid stuff, but are any like Prince Charles like. Cool are any of them. Cool with or do they just maintain their respective distance? Women Kate with very funny with me because Actually when we had them in off into, that was a There was A. That, was a someone shooting nearby. I'm look around the whole page. And Because I was going to belong different undersea stuff I'm. Like okay, you need to the box. And if anything happens, you need to get wedding cake out. For Basically Mad, not nine. What's going on I woke up. Again I'm very cool, and but young, and I walk in and look at. What are you doing here? And I'm like I will be your security for the day I. Mean Look at me like who is child. Now. Like maybe laughing at me like you. Know but I made the exit for. Parking your life. Reality. You're telling me there was a lockdown situation. And you four foot eleven. person were. Were thrust into an action movie where you had to protect one of the princes of England and you're in the Bruce Willis. Tom Cruise role in this in this scenario. Yeah. I guess. Because I knew at the was supposed to have the most could not true security person, but because they had their security, they didn't know. What I did, so I believe them if anything happened. To the book flex page to go to the. Security! People waiting. For the biggest didn't expect someone like me to turn up, so they just kind of funny. It is Kinda funny really when you think about. And then you wind up lockdown in a room together for hours, and you become lifelong friends. I wish no I just I just and. They would talking amongst me sounds Nice, but they didn't bring. Say That much to me I. was like. You know people are like my own family were calling me asking me if I was okay, because of course Zoya views that that was somebody shooting outside so I had like. My family and friends calling me like. You said that you're alive. You don't like no I'm just looking at the weather you pay. Very. Real Bay. You have had. A pretty fascinating -ly. Weird life. Are you aware of this. Yeah. I say that quasi-buddhist way quirky according life. You think that's fair. So yeah. I mean. I had I had. Different experiences remarking, and and even though it's the careers and I'm GONNA end up. Doing I wouldn't change it. I've met so many cool people and. Not everyone can saving the cleaning us so. Yeah! That's cool. So the the plan is. To stabilize the finances. Get your girlfriend her degree. Get married go to Ireland. Yep. Yeah. That's pretty cool, and then you get the EU passports, so then you can work anywhere in the EU and travel around at will and and whatnot. Exactly and. Yeah I'm I'm really really passionate about therapy and about mental health in general and there's something that I I feel like. I really want to make a difference with? And I know people call on the show and talk about mental health and stuff, so that's kind of why I didn't. Go Sadat kind of with Michael because. I think a lot. People have said things that I would say. But. It's something I'm really really passionate about I really wanted to make a difference so. Yeah and like especially during this lockdown, my my girlfriend has been Diagnosed with adhd and that's something that I really really want to help other people with on I'm also really passionate about decisive identity this. with many people don't know what either and I want to change that and help people with that. Yeah. That's what I've heard of, but I'm not totally sure what it is. I mean we have nine and a half minutes left, and it doesn't sound like a quick conversation, but I'd love to hear the broad premise I. I'll I'll I'll give you the show version Do you. Imagine the MIRA. Not that mirrors somebody's personality. The PC with a hammer it would break into pieces. Correct. Just making sure you're getting it like. Following. Yeah so if you imagine a child past ninety is very Very fragile this now. If a child experiences survey a tool. My full about MIRA has become something. Then the parents not let. Into different sections, the ultimately section still Pau Sameera. So unlike the way only presented like most pa-past Massey, the food I, it's not most. It's one nine. That's been Smith off into different sections because. If a child can then cross different memories. Different parts themselves. And they have to remember the abuse by going through which allows them to continue day knife. And then it goes different. Classmates then become Olsen Olsen the show was States of consciousness. So these alternates, he bought an author gotTA. You would have the passant who should have existed. But instead that one class is split up into different parts. Right, that's the basic way I can explain it. That was a beautifully thorough and descriptive answer about people. compartmentalizing dividing themselves up in order to survive trump. That's a beautiful thing you want to help with. Now the reason why I said it's nine and a half minutes 'cause it's fascinating and clear. There's like you're one of these callers who there's been four things that could have been the whole call. But the reason I said it sounds long through the bullet points because now we have. Little over seven minutes left and I just have a feeling. That if I say to you and what else is going on, that's something. Something's GonNa come out that I want to hear. I just have a feeling. So what okay going on, but also then. So I have been creating another balcony. On that balcony has been my therapy for last month. Without any folks because I have no jobs, so I've been really fun clear on my balcony and making it. Like a basically an extension of job. And then I woke up one morning. When out onto the balcony I'm squirrel had eaten about fourteen of my plunk. I'm this was like the worst thing that can happen to me about time because. My balcony like I said with my therapy, and I was still being I was destroy the loss of my clients. I'm a girlfriend was so angry. Come from come to like break. We're GONNA. Catch this goes down squirrel, so she went onto Amundsen appealing to catch a squirrel and she real trump. So we put out the squirrel trump humane. One doesn't Kennedy. It just tried to invite the metal cage. We've put this page out on the balcony. Putting the normal things I'd like peanut, butter and things. Nothing didn't want the peanut butter, because then like from like clearly is in Mike, taunt and like greenery is the school. He's on a dynamic. The boy had a topic I mean this habit inside the cage. Out For, one night came out the next morning. The WHO. Is Now trapped inside this case I'm. Like. Okay what we caught him. Only now gonNA cage I'm. Wearing. Sunscreen, going through quite a note because I can. Run by the Council when I made a friend there and. Day and I'm like Oh. Hey, you work with the Council right? He like yeah like I have the squirrel cage on my balcony any. Come take it away from the. He didn't even Baffin Island. He was like she'll crown crown all the new. Guidance up. Does that also mean takes the spirit away in this case and I'm. Yeah and so I him mckearney. Little School Koi door says the same. Thank you. That how destroy the Squirrel that? Clump. And now let's not unhappy and so of my. seat. I said if I asked you what else you'd have something. So scary about going to war with the real fat squirrel. I knew it. Yeah. Honestly I've never seen this girl dot fat in my life. And you know in your heart is because he's in your. Plants Yeah I mean I. can't I came up and went. Wow, that's stocks grew when no one thing you can. My tongue for NECAS bust out laughing, but every morning about four end. We just kids. It's like come. On come from then run over there because we were in an acting class. I know my girlfriend is like he's so loud. It could just be need running on the balcony at this point it could be. Fat! Funny. But wasn't at the time, but now that he's gone. I can laugh about it. My version of that story. Is that as I mentioned at the this call. Right before we started talking I was in my backyard, throwing everything that could blow away into the basement. In case, the winds pick up. And one. My neighbors yelled from her yard. I just saw a bear. Walk through your backyard. So I'm not worried about that for the rest life. Now for the rest of my life I. Mean who knows he could have been skinny bear who needs bear food and we'll leave my food alone, but odds are I gotta be pre careful about this bear situation. Yeah. I. Would if I were here. It's a lot different. When you move out of London, maybe leaving New York City. I never had to worry about a bear in New, York City. What what part of Ireland are you gone, too? Well. My girlfriend's family kind of May Dublin but we don't know whether we would be in the same area i. mean you have the whole country to come at this point? That area just depends on what we can afford and. Stuff like that, but I still have to do it. Three and also is still quite a while, yeah! It's got two and a half minutes left. And this is Ben. You strike me as one of the callers that. And I feel this way to some degree or other about everybody, but I feel like you in particular if we ever met up. it would be, it would be very easy. Energy and I don't feel that about a lot of people usually in very shy and uncomfortable, but I have a feeling. You and I would get along my four foot eleven print. Also chair I mean. Nothing check out about showing that united because I think. I think we're both very talking about music as well and I think locking love singing. I, play the guitar like I. Think we can have a whole conversation about those well. I. That song I heard the first time I heard I was like Whoa. This is good. People are using music to say stuff right now because I keep thinking about the sixties. And I keep thinking about. The know eighties like Billy Bragg one of my favorite artists. During Times of upheaval, artists have traditionally stood up and some of them managed to nail some things that needed to be said and I think about how Amazon Oh so much music now and apple in these corporations that don't pay their taxes and I'm like. I don't know spotify pay taxes, but on like I'm very disturbed that the places that distribute music are are companies that have a vested interest in making sure artists don't say certain things, so I feel like. Every artist in the world right now has to figure out how to stand up and say some stuff because we need a new. Bob Dylan right now. We need a new Billy Bragg. I mean we still got the old. Billy Bragg so that's. A good start. Yeah I agree and that's the thing that I loved about my job. The people who came and performed for. They want like mainstream. August they were people who used to perform you know back in the seventy eighties nineteen. And before that you know I mean. It's just good. Sometimes. They sneak this good live music. Rather than the stuff that diskettes trying out and on the radio sometimes. I really hope for a better future and to go back to the beginning. I'm happy to hear you. Embracing Pride in who you are and I I hope that you know the first half of the call. You talked about some scary stuff and some people coming at you in ways that are not okay. And I hope that second half of the call takes your mind off things. At least a little bit and I really wish the best to you and your girlfriend help you wind up in Ireland, married and happy in. Financially stable, and with all the things you deserve in life. That's very. Caller. So. Sincerely, it was a pleasure talking to you. Talk about senator tents stuff. We talked about some stuff that was very funny, but as I said in the course of the call felt easy going, and and I have a feeling that if we ever meet in your life, I'm actually going to be socially comfortable for lunch, and not the most off putting human being most fended the show and tell you I am your life. Thank you for all of the insight. Might background some you tough times some of the strange times. Telling me about the time that you will personally tasked with escorting members of the family to safety. But interesting. Thank you to jared. O'CONNELL in need floors in the food. Thank you the shell shock for the music. You like the show one thing you can do to help rate review subscribe. Check out the entire, beautiful anonymous back catalogue. It's on stitcher premium along with our followups. stitcher premium dot com slash stories more details on that. Next, time. A. Now. It's time to take care of yourself. You GotTa make time for you. 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