20 Episode results for "British Library"
England: British Library
"The british library the british empire build its greatest monuments out of paper at the british library. You'll see some of the many documents literary historical end musical. That changed the course of history. Hi i'm rick steves. Thanks for joining me. On a guided walk through the best collection anywhere of old books maps scriptures and historical letters. These national archives of britain include more than twelve million books hundred and eighty miles of shelving and the deepest basement in london but everything that matters for our visit is in one delightful room where the most important documents are on display. Start with these top stops then straight. According to your interests allow yourself an hour to do. Justice to this audio tour will stand before ancient bibles. The works of shakespeare highlights. English lit one. Oh one the magna carta end ladies and gentlemen the beatles how to use this audio guide as you can see from the display window on your mp three player. Each of the british library's greatest hits has its own title and track number much like the song tracks of cd or album. You can skip ahead taylor itinerary to your own taste but navigating through the british library on your own can be confusing and it's easiest to just follow the tour in the order. I've laid out to help you along. I've invited my colleague lisa. Welcome lisa hi rick. She'll give one exhibit to next after listening to her directions. You can pause the audio guide then restarted at the next track when you're ready to see the next piece be aware that even with the very best of directions museum going can be confusing. Exhibits are routinely moved. Sent out on loan or tucked away for restoration. If you're taking this tour with my rick. Steves audio europe app. Don't miss its latest features. There are zuma ball maps showing the route and each stop. These are viewable. While you listen twenty-second rewind button allows you to catch something. You might have missed or here. Vital directions the second time and the speed button makes me talk faster. Chipmunk style you can read the actual script of this tour and if you'd like more information on the spot you can download our entire guidebook on this destination with a couple of clicks those following this tour on their ipod rather than with my fancier app may find that my guidebook to this place with its maps photos and exhibit titles can make following this audio tour easier. Be flexible and don't hesitate to ask for help by showing a picture of an exhibit to a security guard who can point the way here in london. Many people speak english now. Let's the british librarian get started. Lisa take us in. Thanks rick the tour begins in the courtyard the entrance. You'll see a big statue. It depicts a naked isaac newton bending forward with a compass to measure the universe this naked newton symbolizes the libraries purpose together all knowledge and promote our endless search for truth the stepping inside. You'll find the information desk and other services. Our tour starts directly ahead. Climb the fifteen stairs to the entrance to the gallery. The room is labeled the treasures of the british library. Or the sir. John writ black gallery or sometimes just the treasures. The gallery is just one small part of this large complex. The extensive reading rooms. Where scholars do researcher upstairs. And not open to the general public entered the treasures room and let your eyes adjust. This priceless collection is all in one large dimly lit room. Oh sorry at least. I didn't see there. you're right. It is dim. The room has display cases grouped according to themes historical documents literature. Music science and so on our tour starts straight ahead so make your way to the far side of the room. Look for a set of displays on maps throughout our tour. Focus on the big picture. Don't be too worried about locating every specific map or scroll or manuscript mention enjoyed the whole exhibit and whatever's on display. Today start with the wall of maps maps. The historic maps show. How humankind's perspective of the world has expanded over the centuries. These pieces of paper encoded with information gleaned from travelers could be passed along to future generations. each generation built upon the knowledge of the last the earliest maps made in britain and europe featured only the small local world. They knew these early maps put medieval man in an unusual position looking down on his homeland from fifty miles up in the air. Within a few centuries maps of europe were of such high quality they could be used today to plan a trip. Within a century or two after columbus the entire globe was fairly well mapped including america. Well except for the area beyond the well mapped east coast out. There was the vast expanse of unknown land labeled terra incognita. When you finished exploring the maps move into the area dedicated to sacred text sacred texts early. Bibles brown's the cases. You'll likely see some old decaying fragments of parchment or papyrus. The writing is in antiquated latin. Greek egyptian or other dead languages consider the fact that many of humankind's oldest ratings were dedicated to spiritual aspirations often on display or some of the earliest versions of the bible. These include some early bound books with pages cold a codex start with the codex. Senate tickets this codex. Early bound book is from around three fifty. Ad it's one of the complete bibles in existence one of the first attempts to collect various books by different authors into one authoritative anthology. The codex is in greek. The language in which most of the new testament was originally written the old testament portions are greek translations from the original hebrew. Jesus didn't speak english. Of course nor did moses or isaiah or paul or any other bible authors characters. Jesus spoke aramaic a form of hebrew. His words were written down in greek decades. After jesus death then various greek manuscripts were compiled into anthologies like the codex sinaia us. These were then translated into latin. The language of medieval monks and scholars. Greek and latin manuscripts were later translated into english so our present day english bible didn't come directly from the mouths and pens of these religious figures. Rather it's the fitful product of centuries of oral tradition evolution and translation today bible scholars poor diligently over every word from these earliest known versions of the bible trying to separate jesus authentic words from those that seem to have been added later nearby. You may find another early bible. The codex alexandrine ass- it dates from four twenty five ad these too early bibles contain some writings not included in most modern bibles even today. Catholic bibles contain books not found in protestant bibles so there are several things that editors need to do to compile the most accurate bible. I they need to decide which books actually belong then find the oldest and most accurate version of each book and finally they need to translate it correctly. Nearby you'll find more early. Bibles along with other texts in another set display cases Ooh the art of the book. You'll see various medieval era books. Some beautifully illustrated the lettering is immaculate. But all are pinned by hand. Some are labeled bible's meaning collections of sacred writings others are gospels which specifically cover the history of jesus. There are saulters or songs from the bible and books of ours. Filled with prayers and inspiring bible quotes. What they all have in. Common is their beauty in both the calligraphy and the illustrations. After the fall of rome the christian message was preserved by monks who reproduced ancient bibles by hand. This was a painstaking process. Usually done for a rich patron. The bibles were often. Beautifully illustrated illuminated the most magnificent of these medieval british. Monte script is the lindisfarne gospels from eighty six ninety eight. The text is in latin the language of scholars ever since the roman empire the illustrations with elaborate. Trae serena interwoven decoration. Mix irish classical and even byzantine forms by the way you can read an electronic copy of these manuscripts by using touchscreen computers that are scattered around the room. These gospels are a reminder that christianity almost didn't make it in europe after the fall of rome which had established christianity as the empire's official religion. Much of your reverted to its pagan ways. People worshipped woodland spirits and terrible teutonic. Gods lindisfarne was an obscure monastery of irish monks on a remote island off the east coast of england but during that chaotic time it was one of the few of light tending the embers of civilization. Through the long night of the dark ages. it took five hundred years before. Christianity was fully reestablished in europe. Continue browsing both the art of the book and the sacred texts. You'll likely see some early english. Bibles you might find. Copies of the king. James version the wycliffe bible or others from the fifteenth sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. By fourteen hundred. There was still no english version of the bible. Even though only a small percentage of the population understood latin a few brave reformers risk death to translate these sacred books into english and print them using gutenberg's new invention. The printing press within two centuries english translations were both legal and popular. These bibles are written in the same language. You speak but try reading them. The lettering strange and many words are out of date and unintelligible. It clearly shows how quickly languages evolve the king james version so called because it was done during his reign has been the most widely used english translation. Fifty scholars worked for four years here in london borrowing heavily from previous translations to produce this work. Its impact on the english. Language was enormous. It made elizabethan english. Something of the standard even after people stopped saying the dow and fairly fairly recent translations are more readable using modern english speech patterns. They also aim to be more accurate based on better scholarship and being translated directly from the manuscripts but there are still problems trying to translate old phrases to fit contemporary viewpoints. Case in point our generations debate. Over whether the god of the bible should be a he or she if god is a woman then how do we explain the existence of hockey good point next. Turn your attention to the glass case along. The wall dedicated to early. Printing among the exhibits are printed pages from china and a famous gutenberg bible printing the gutenberg bible before looking at gutenberg's bible ponder the early chinese pages printed long before gutenberg like so much else printing was invented by the chinese sentries before the printing press in europe pictures of buddha surrounded by prayers and chinese characters were mass produced the faithful gain blessing by saying the prayer and so did the printer by reproducing it. The prints were made using wooden blocks carved with chinese characters dipped into paint or ink and pressed by hand onto the page. Now find the gutenberg bible from around fourteen fifty five it was so revolutionary because it introduced a new technique movable type johann gutenberg german silversmith devised a convenient way to reproduce written materials quickly heatley and affordably. You carve each letter onto a separate metal block. Then you can arrange them into words ink them up and press them onto paper. When one job was done you could reuse the same letters for the next job. This simple idea had immediate. End revolutionary consequences. Suddenly the bible was available for anyone to read this new technology helped fuel the protestant reformation protestants preached that. The written word of god was the ultimate authority. And now every tom dick and heinrich could afford a copy. Suddenly knowledge both secular and religious became affordable and accessible to a wide audience not just charge officials and the wealthy books became the mass medium of europe linking people by common set of ideas. Now move on to the adjoining room where you'll find several documents of the magna carta magna carta question. How did britain a tiny island with just a few million people. Come to rule a quarter of the world not by force but by rule of law. The magna carta was the basis for england system of law and constitutional government though historians talk about the magna carta several different versions of the documents exist. Some of which are kept in this room start with the document labelled the articles of the barons. It bears the seal of england's king. John in twelve fifteen england's barons rose in revolt against the slimy king remember john appears as a villain in the legends of robinhood after losing london. John was forced to negotiate. The barons presented him with this list of demands. John whose rule was worthless without the baron support had no choice but to agree and to fix his seal to it. A few days after jonah greeted this original document. It was rewritten in legal. Form known as the magna carta or great charter. Some thirty five copies were distributed all around the kingdom. This was a turning point in the history of government until then kings had ruled by god given authority above the laws of men now for the first time there were limits in writing on how king could treat his subjects more generally it reaffirmed the right of habeas corpus the notion that government cannot imprison someone without a legitimate legal reason. This small step became the basis for all constitutional government since then including ours. So what did this radical piece of paper. Actually say not much. Today's standards the specific demands had to do with things such as inheritance texas the king's duties to widows and orphans and so on it wasn't specific articles that were important but the simple fact that the king had to abide by them as law now returned to the main room as you pass the displays on printing turn left. You'll find display cases dedicated to science as well as the art of science science. Leonardo davinci's notebook the printed word spread religious ideas but it also helped disseminate secular knowledge. During the renaissance. Men turned their attention away from heaven and toward the nuts and bolts of the material world around them among the documents. Here you might find some by trail-blazing early scientists like leonardo da vinci galileo or is it newton pages from leonardo's notebook show this powerful curiosity his genius for invention and his famous backward an inside out handwriting. Which makes sense. Only if you know italian and have a mirror. Leonardo's restless mind pondered diverse subjects his doodles ranged from how birds fly to the flow of the arno river from military fortifications to an early helicopter and to the earth shine reflecting on to the moon. One person's research inspired another's and books allowed knowledge. Secular knowledge to accumulate galileo championed the counter commonsense notion that the earth spun around the sun. Isaac newton later perfected the mathematics of those moving celestial bodies. Now look around you. Nearby are many historical documents. The displays challenged frequently. But you may see letters by queen. Elizabeth the first thomas more florence nightingale gandhi and others. It's clear you could spend days in here browsing the collection but for now. Let's trace the evolution of english literature. You'll find english lit nearby. Start by finding one of the oldest works in the english language. Beowulf english literature. Ponder the copy of beowulf the first english literary masterpiece over a thousand years old. The manuscript is from one thousand ad but the story itself dates to about seven fifty in this epoch. Story the young hero. Beowulf defeats to ten months. Tres threatening the kingdom it may sound like video game but beowulf symbolizes england's emergence from chaos and barbarism of the dark ages as you browse through beowulf and early works. Think of how much. Our language has changed. This anglo-saxon epic poem is written in old english an early version of our language. Which is almost unrecognisable. Today as you ponder this and other early english manuscript consider the two thousand year evolution of our english language. Four out of every five english words have been borrowed from other languages brought to england by foreign invaders. I there was the language of the original celtic tribesmen from brundage times. Next came the latin. Speaking romans who conquered and colonized the isle of britain around the time of christ after the fall of rome. Around five hundred. Ad germanic tribes called angles and saxons invaded. They made english mostly germanic language the angles the island england or england next came the vikings from denmark around eight hundred ad. Finally there's the french speaking. Normans under william the conqueror who arrived in the year ten sixty six all these languages celtic latin anglo-saxon norris french were mixed together to of tongues simmered a few centuries Sounds yummy by around. Fourteen hundred old english had evolved into middle english the language of geoffrey chaucer. Chaucer wrote the canterbury tales. Find the copy of the canterbury tales. In the display case nearby this bestseller broke new ground. It was written in latin the language of scholars but in the lingo of the streets also chaucer's body collection of stories told by pilgrims on their way to canterbury gave the full range of life's experiences. Happy sad scillies sexy as well as devout late in life. Chaucer wrote an apology for those works of his. That quote tend toward sin. The rest of the literature display is a greatest hits collection from bronte to kipling to wolf to joyce the displease change frequently. You may see early manuscript by charles dickens whose novels were as popular in his time as blockbuster. Movies are today. Jane austen stories of nineteen. Th century women seeking suitable husbands have become equally popular. In the twenty first century the original alice's adventures in wonderland by lewis carroll created a fantasy world where it growing up rules. Logic were turned upside down. Also on display are superb works by contemporary writers. Making it clear that britain continues to be a powerful force in the world of ideas and imagination. The man who more than any other created the english language we know. Today is william. Find several documents about the man and his work in the free standing glass case nearby william shakespeare. This may be a bit ethnocentric. But i believe william. Shakespeare is the greatest author in any language period. He expanded and helped. Define modern english in one fell swoop. He made the language of everyday people as important as latin in the process. He gave his phrases like in one fell swoop which we quote without even knowing. It's shakespeare perhaps just as important was his insight into humanity think of his great stock of characters and memorable lines brooding hamlet to be or not to be. That is the question tragic. Julius caesar friends romans countrymen lend me your ears rowdy falstaff. The better part of valour is discretion and the star-crossed lovers romeo and juliet but soft. What light through yonder window breaks. Shakespeare probe the psychology of human beings. Three hundred years before freud even today his characters strike a familiar court look for early printed. Copies called folios of shakespeare's plays since shakespeare wrote his plays to be performed not read. He only bothered to publish a few but as his reputation grew bootleg versions began to circulate. Some of these were written by actors who were trying with faulty memories. To recreate plays. They had appeared in years before publishers. Also put out different versions of shakespeare's plays. It wasn't until seven years after his death that this complete collection of shakespeare's plays was published. The editors were friends and fellow actors. Some scholars have wondered. If maybe shakespeare head ghostwriters help him out on several of his plays after all figured how could a journeyman actor with little education have written so many brilliant masterpieces and he was surrounded by other great writers such as his friend and fellow poet. Ben jonson most modern scholars though agree that shakespeare did indeed write the plays and sonnets attributed to him now find the famous engraving of shakespeare. That appears on the title page. One of his published works. This is one of only two portraits done during his lifetime. Is this what he really looked like. No one knows the best answer probably comes from his friend. Ben johnson who wrote the introduction on the facing page johnson concludes reader. Look on his picture but his book. Finally turn your attention to displays on music. These feature manuscripts by classical composers and memorabilia of the beatles the beatles and others bach. Beethoven brahms bay. the beatles. future generations will have to judge whether the musical cortez. The beatles ranks musically with artists such as handel and chopin but no one can deny their historical significance. Look for photos of john lennon. Paul mccartney george harrison and ringo starr before and after their fame the rock band burst onto the scene. In the early nineteen sixties unheard of popularity with long hair and loud music they brought counterculture and revolutionary ideas to the middle class affecting the values of an entire generation during the globe. They served as a link between young people everywhere. Among the displays. You'll find the manuscripts of song lyrics written by lennon and mccartney the to guiding lights of the group. I wanna hold. Your hand was the song that launched them into stardom a hard day's night and help we're titled songs of two films capturing the excitement and chaos of their hectic touring schedule. Some call a ticket to ride the first heavy metal song. Yesterday by paul was recorded with guitar and voice backed by a string quartet. A touch of sophistication from producer. George martin also read the handwritten poem by young john lennon labeled untitled verse. Rambling depressed cynical but humorous. Is that a self portrait down at the bottom. The beatles memorabilia hangs alongside manuscripts by mozart. Beethoven schubert and others kind of an anti-climax after the fab four i know off and on display a work by german-born composer who found a home right here in london. Find george frederic handel's famous or a you the messiah. It was written in a flash of inspiration three glorious hours of music in two thousand four days. The manuscript on display contains the final bars at its most famous tune all they do and that's also a fitting end to our from bibles to beowulf to beatles through the british library. We hope you enjoyed the british library. Thanks to jeanne openshaw. The co author of this tour. If you're up for more london sightseeing. We have audio guides for the british museum. The westminster walk saint paul's end the city. Remember this tour was excerpted from the rick. Steves london guidebook co authored with jeanne openshaw for more details on eating sleeping and sightseeing in london. Referred this year's edition of that guidebook for more free audio tours and podcasts. End for information about our tv shows bus tours and travel gear visit our website at rick. Steves dot com. This tour was produced by cedar house. Audio productions thanks. Cheers bye for now.
Monocle Reads: Jaipur Literature festival at the British Library
"Monocle reads today. I'm speaking to know metoo collie is founder and director of the Jaipur literature festival, which takes place every year in Jaipur in India, a taste of the spirit of the festival will be at the British library in June here in London to celebrate south ages, unique literary. Heritage. Welcome to you. Knew meter wonderful to be here with you, Georgina tell us about the parrot festival, which is billed as the greatest literary show on earth. All of us me William dalrymple Sanjoy, I think via secretly are not so secretly surprised by hall grew from us mall, modest well-intentioned festival to the scale and range. It's got today, and I think one of the things that distinguished it from any other festival in the world was the fact that India has unique literally headed because we have twenty four national languages, including English and these languages are in constant resonant with each other. So my contributions from the very beginning will make sure that the festival was deeply rooted. In the Indian literatures and give them an opportunity to talk to each other, as well as to showcase and platform them for the rest of the world. And every year it grew and I remember in two thousand eleven I said to the others, I said, this is going to be our Woodstock, y'all, but it didn't stop at that. And we sometimes competitive literature festival to kumbaya, which is the largest pilgrimage in the world, but it's not just a numbers. It's easy to get numbers Indio billion plus people, but it's the quality of the audiences so unique mistreat because the quality of the audiences provokes the writers, and the speakers to give their best now the event takes place in a number of other locations around the world. We'll talk about London. In a moment, where else does it on a London than I I'm the Belfast, which I'm looking forward to and then we have? Houston New York Boulder Colorado, this year, Toronto and now again, for the second year, Adelaide and each of these, they're very rooted, very local and yet, they are international politics. And somehow, we've got one partners in each of these cities. And we get feedback and, and something happening there, all of them. Now tell us about at the British library. It'll be the third time. The events taking place there doesn't seem it's a really wonderful to be collaborating with the British library. It's sixty or in London, and are told you at the British library, you know, the British library's unpatented in its archive, memory, the shed scholarship that we get there, and we collaborate closely with the team to, to see what we can bring that. That's unique to the location. For example, one of the sessions with give me the most joyous, two years ago with Shashi Tohru and others on them. PG Oton, white PT Woodhouse is the Cumulus very popular in India unexpectedly. I mean the audience and very famous biographer of BG house, all very surprised to see the way Indian politician and bestselling author. Shashi Tharoor could summon a- almost five minutes of throws from PT Woodhouse on memory, and that was the year when there was a PG Woodhouse exhibition of recent acquisitions of papers by the British light res to seal? We have a wonderful session on hero cliffs on based on the exhibition going on. They suggest they collaborate. Give us ideas and. I find it an absolutely wonderful location. And it's a wonderful platform while I must say Southbank was very good tune, it's slightly differently. And tell me who the big names this year. I know that Jeffrey out show will be alongside fantastic. Indian writer shrub any Busu. Yes, not have a very good list of people near Tristram hunt and Chaffee to rule. And Chabany Bossio speaking about cities. We have Rabin not gore some experts on revenue after gore and on the Bengal Rene sons miles Steeler on Queen Victoria, who was known as Malacca Victoria in India have noth- date. Sarah, not looking about the first guru of Sikhism, which is the youngest religion in the world. Good non-uk bit hundred God luhia, who is a wonderful singer and sick historian, also live creek. Country with people like shied. Afridi the Pakistani cricketer, the wonderful Dombi was written on your book around the cricket country than all friends of the festival, like Marcus, looser, toy on creativity and not intelligence engine us any on. The intersection honesty's reason class, the Nobel laureate Sovan kid on Chris Nunn, who was in jeopardy seal, he because the secrets of the gene Helena Kennedy again, who comes to jeopar- on enough. She tells us how he was shamed route Fidelin prenup NUP intra speak about the vanishing about wildlife conservation in India, and the increasingly Blix inaugural debt. Let me thank you so much for that jail f the Jaipur literary festival at the British library takes pace from the fourteenth to the sixteenth of June. He been listening to Monica rates. Thanks to our producer Christie Evans. I'm not Nicole. Thank you. For listening.
The Morning Briefing: Monday, November 30
"Halloween danny boyle with the briefing from the telegraph. It's monday november thirtieth. And you might be able to shop around the clock this christmas so stolz to be allowed to stay open for longer this year that sunday. A major relaxation of rules to help revive high-street stools hamid by covid local governments secretary. Robert generate wants councils to waive rules that restricts opening hours it means shops decide how long and when they open during december and january including the option of twenty four seven service wants to own christmas shopping with uk brands this year while caroline leap has written a piece explaining how to pulse the by british challenge. Meantime various johnson's to announce that pubs and restaurants hit by new restrictions will be given extra money to help them through christmas. The prime minister's trying to see of a major tory rebellion up to one hundred conservative. mp's threatening to oppose. The new tee regime is being put to a commons. Vote tomorrow before it's choose to come into full on wednesday we've got a full guide to how daily life will be affected in each area now. Major search is on the way for british backpacker esta. Dingley gave up her job to travel european van with a boyfriend for the last six years. She's now gone missing on a solo hike in the pyrenees. She'll be off to sending sophie from the top of a mounted french. Authorities are searching the area with helicopters and dogs. We've got the latest. And when they wrote material for monty python and the holy grail. The comedians probably assumed that black knight sketch with something completely different. but it's now being revealed. The joke was effectively. I told in the fifteenth century curator at the british library founded version of the same punchline in the margin of a manuscript. We've compared the gags swath mentioning pieces including the extraordinary aftermath of the most dramatic f. One crash in years and all the talking points after last night's strictly down self right. You're up to date from the telegraph. Chris we'll have your second briefing of the day this evening.
"Good morning good afternoon and good evening wherever you are in the world, I'm James Scofield. The writer of the stories in season to this podcast behind the bottom line. Can I, ask you a question. What do you really know about the people you work with? What I've learned is that everybody has an unusual story to tell about themselves and the things that they've done. Over the years I've turned these people on defense into short stories for various magazines. In each episode of behind the bottom line I, read you my original story and afterwards I ten something about it's real life background. Today stories could video games. And while you're listening, ask yourself. What are you prepared to do at work to get something you really want? Roddy looked to the silver object in his hand. It was heavy and powerful. He hoped he could do this quickly and the t would feel nothing. He looked for one last time. It is familiar reflection in the mirror. And lifted the object to his head handshaking. Put it down again, breathing fast. But he knew he had to do it. He. Wrote Baldwin. Junior, Librarian from the British Library in London had been sent to work in the Department of European. In tuitions. Deli for short in Brussels. What he needed now. Was To win a competition against his colleagues from the other national libraries of the European Union. Again! He raised the electric clippers his head. And this time began to shave off his hair. The competition. It started a month earlier when the head of the Department Mr Van Group. Informed them that the European Commission wants to make a film about Delis, work. The film team would focus on one person in the department and follow him or her around for a week. What kind of passenger they looking for Mr Van Group is ready. Oh somebody to make libraries look exciting and fun I believe. Make a recommendation to them next month when they visit, he replied before continuing the meeting. During the coffee break. They will love the idea. Fun said Florian an authority on medieval manuscripts from the stocks. People take in Berlin. The I'm all serious things to focus on in Europe today. No. Everybody agreed. Then they all went home and began plotting how to win this competition. Document storage expert from the National Library of Sweden Stockholm used scientific method. He spent a weekend analyzing videos produced by the commission and made a list of the most frequent character types. On Monday. It was clear that something awful happened to him. His cool Scandinavian suits open, necked, white shirts and quiet intellectual personality. had been replaced by something much more colorful. That evening Roddy took him to a nearby pub for a drink. Well. Yes, thank you kindly. Beyond said snapping him on the back. I don't mind if I do. I'll have a pint of Guinness will. As they stood at the bar, wasting for their drinks. On nooses Emerald Green Tie, which was covered in little gold hops. Short ready, and it's a fight Manua. Continued. When the drinks arrived, he looked around and said in a cheerful voice. She think we might have a sing song in here later. Said Roddy. You don't like Guinness. You Never Sing and you're wearing a truly ugly tie. Why are you pretending to be Irish? You won't even any good at it. Beyond looked around to see if anybody was listening. I've done my homework. He whispered. The oddest have total control of the European Commission. Seventy, eight percent of all people interviewed in two hundred eight thousand nine videos I watched Irish semi chances of being the star of his video a statistically much better, if I act Irish to. Sante. wrote he shook his head sadly. Drank his em and went him. As he left. Byun was singing the wild rover. And, so it continued. Fluorine grew little consultants bid under his bottom lip and invested in smartphone. Petro from the national. Library in Helsinki began wearing makeup contact lenses and shorter skirts. Only. Roddy couldn't find a new image. Until? One evening at the cinema. When he saw Bruce Willis. Yes he sort. That should be the new look for librarians. Tough, sexy, indefinitely exciting. The next morning. Ruddy shaved off his hat. He arrived slightly late for the ten o'clock department meeting, and the people from the film company had gone out to get coffee. His colleagues were already sitting in the meeting room. His bald head caused a sensation and to his surprise. They suddenly all seem to believe he would win video role. Wow, said chlorine. We don't have a chance. Yeah at it'd be on as he took off his green tie no chance. Push this look. Brilliant, he's. Studied Petra. Where well said Mr Van Group as he entered the room followed by two strangers a woman. This is why your called Roddy Baldwin yes. Everybody laughed politely, but please continued Mr Van, group my guests. He waved his hand. The people who are clearly from the film company are here to select all star and so we. The guests have been whispering to each other, but then the woman leant forward looked ready and said. You! You, just the right. Look the central character. Even your names great. Rodman Pink with pleasure. Thanks for talking about him. Tough. Sexy unexciting. Thank you said Roy. That's wonderful. But I'd like to suggest another name for my character in the video. Let's hear it. Well what about Bruce? Like Bruce Willis began patrick he so. Bruce the woman said slowly Bruce. Yes, that could work. Bruce the bookworm. There was a moment silence. Florian beyond and Petra seem to stop breathing. Bruce! Boosts. The WHO. Australia. The bookworm she answered i. was telling your colleagues just before arrived this videos for children, so we need somebody, fun and friendly. We have this bright red worm costume made out of Latex. With your whole head painted red I. think you're going to look really. Cute said patch just like Bruce Willis. Video. Games was written for business spotlight in two thousand twelve. and. I think what you can see very clearly here is how much I kind of wish that I. Had managed to find myself a job working for the European Commission. European Commission's folded I. Don't work for them. I never applied. But I've always thought it would be really cool place to work. And you've got the. People from all over Europe working there in also some interesting projects, how which directly affect people's lives? So I've always had this. Society Romantic Vision would be like. To work for the European Commission and I, suppose also it. European Commission reflects my my ideal really that. People from different nations come together in order to work on common projects for. Everybody's benefit. Now, this is not how. The European Commission is seen by a lot of people in the UK. And? What I! What I also think in the stories I'm making a little bit fun of the European Commission. And I'm. This is perhaps. Typical I suppose of of many people taking in two, thousand and twelve. We didn't. British people didn't see. Membership of the European Union as anything other than total, there was never any idea entered my head that Britain whatever needs a union. And, although I'm poking gentle fun at European Commission here, unfortunately there on awful lot of people who are an awful lot more, vicious and. A moral in the. Things that they said things invented about the European Commission. And sadly that is something which led to Brexit. I like the idea that the people working for. This fictitious department should hastily point out sometimes in some of my stories. People who've got a little bit upset about. Things I've said. About the pattern time for example. But the positive European library institutions or Deli. Is entirely fictitious far as I know. Managed to find any references to it in any on a on the Internet. Anyway I like the idea that the people working for Denny so. Essentially Librarians INS could be infected by this desire for for fame and stardom and that they would. Transition from their normal cells into something completely different when the prospect of appearing in Video Phil was dangled before them. I'm and. You might wonder why was that I. Have made beyond my cool Swede. decided to turn all Irish in this was. Actually something of an urban legend I think I'm that. I bought into a little bit at that time. which was that the Irish made up an awful lot of. People working in the European Commission and I'm since then I've done. Research. Done it before I. wrote the story, but anyway at the time. It seemed to me. Every time I clicked on information film about the EU there was always some sort of Irish participation in it so I got the feeling that, although the Irish, relatively small part of the European Union terms of numbers that they actually had a very active role in the European Commission. And, so I thought okay. It would be funny if beyond who is very cool and laid back should try to remake reinvent himself. Have a makeover as as somebody Irish. and which can also see is with the character Florian. From Gemini Florian Growth Himself. A little consultants be just beneath his bottomless and this back in two thousand twelve was quite fashionable I'm and I was working at around a lot of consultants and these little Mustang leased almost all she sees little beads. They grew underneath their bottom lip, so no mustachioed bid anywhere else just a little. Piece of fluff growing underneath their bottom lips to really annoy me. I always think it looked like I left some of their breakfasts. On their on their face before they come into work. but it was very cool for time, and so that's why I decided to give that to Florida. And Roddy deciding not to make himself look cool and awesome. He should try to make himself look like Bruce Willis that amused me. I think it's always very interesting when you have an actor like Bruce Willis. WHO calls his probably most famous? For his. tough-guy roles that John Maclean in die hard. But he's also done an awful lot of other things as well. And so rudy obviously sees Bruce Willis in his diehard Rolla. Are Rough tough and extremely cool. But Petra sees him somewhat differently. Petra sees him as perhaps. The, comic character in friends who dates Rachel for three episodes, all as rj. The raccoon in over the hedge and I think it's interesting how? Two people with a similar background could have a very different image of a particular person depending which films they've seen that person. So I hit the video games amused you and light me. You see Bruce Willis as pretty cute really. I hope you enjoyed this episode of behind the bottom line I'll be back next week with a story called nine hundred nine percent with two of my most popular characters Julian Paula. I say them imus popular characters because of all the stories in behind the bottom line those which include Julian polar get the most listeners. Anyway you'll is and my favorite anarchists of working for bank now and I can guarantee a fair amount of Kale's. Please subscribe on spotify Apple Google podcast, which other you to make sure you never miss an episode and tell your friends right online. Review all right to me directly at James. Dot, Rupert Dot Scofield at gmail.com to let me know what you think. Until next episode of behind the bottom line, this is James Scofield saying goodbye. and.
The Colonialism of Prizes & Publishing
"Welcome to tiny spark a podcast of nonprofit quarterly. We take a close look, nonprofits, international aid and philanthropy. I'm amy custody. There have already been positive responses to the economic fallout from covid nineteen, and from the renewed demands across the nation for racial equity. As a result of these developments, many major arts organizations are striving to become more equitable vice, supporting more artists than usual. In fact, some institutions have shifted from awarding prestigious annual prizes to just one artist, and are now dividing monetary prizes and acclaim to all nominated artists. My guest today is no stranger to sharing prizes now. Molly cer- pell was the recent winner of one of the richest literary awards. The WINDHAM Campbell price for her debut novel the Old Drift. Sir Pell Zambian and she's an associate professor of English at the University of California Berkeley back in two thousand fifteen, she had one another distinguished literary prize, the Caine Prize for African writing, but surpassed decided to respond to the award in a way that would draw attention to the problematic nature of these competitions and awards it was. An impulsive decision. And it came up as the result of a question and answer session at a Book Club meeting at the British Library. Where we were asked as five African writers why we felt the CAINE Prize was administered in London and not in an African city. And I raise my hand and answered and. That not only was the prize administered in London, but that we were at the British library, and the price ceremony would be at the Bodleian library at Oxford, and that we were also asked to the British Museum and go to the House of Commons. And this was in fact quite strange. And I said whenever I. Ask these kinds of questions I'm told for the money. We are sponsored by British patrons of the arts. And so in my rebellious mode. I thought well. I'm going to make it clear. Since I have an opportunity here as someone who has a fulltime job. That the money is not the point for most writers. Later in Oxford, Oxfordshire Pella announced that she would share the fifteen thousand dollar prize with the four other shortlisted writers, a lot of pundits and reporters and people on social media assumed that this was an act of generosity. I think because I'm a woman. But it was in fact an attempt to make a political statement about the way that we set writers up to be in competition with one another rather than thinking about the nature of the art itself. And the nature of the art is that's repel is quite simply a writer. Her work is a lifeline. I always say I can't help it. I've tried to stop before. But I find that my mind invents things invent stories. I, think writing and literature in General Conservative, an escape for people can serve as a respite for people. I think it's a way to reflect back. Society to itself for us to stand an analyze the workings of human behavior, the workings of society. Sir Pell has written a number of essays in prestigious publications in what she asserts reviews as a black woman in the world with titles like the banality of empathy. Glossing Africa white men. I wanted to dig into some of these essays when I spoke to repel back in February, of course, that was before cove, hit the US, and before the black lives matter, protests grew across the nation when we spoke Sir Pal told me that back in two thousand, fifteen and Oxford when she announced that she would split the Caine prize with the other nominees. She said her announcement was not received as the political statement she had hoped to make when I announced that I was splitting the prize it was in my acceptance speech, which was not. Recorded by news reporters or TV casters, private event and I brought the other four shortlisted writers up on stage with me and I said these are all writers who I greatly admire and respect. And I made clear the intention behind what I was doing. Immediately, but because it wasn't recorded, I think the news that a young woman had split. The prize was enough. To make people believe that this was an act of generosity I. Also, you know John Birger split the Booker Prize that he won between himself and the British by Panther Party and his entire acceptance speech was about why. And, that was read philosophy as the political statement that it was. They think also an arts prize was split between five artists who wrote to the judging committee and asked them to split the prize between them, and so again each case there's kind of a written statement about why this is happening. In my case, it was performed on up on stage, and so I think just the news of splitting the prize people assumed that I was doing it out of a sense of. Generosity rather than a sense of. Political statement or a belief him justice in equal distribution. Did that frustrate you not particularly I guess people thought they were flattering me now I mean I didn't mean for really to be a statement to the world about the kind of person that I am I meant for it to be a statement to the CAINE Prize I've been shortlisted for the CAINE Prize in two thousand and ten and going through the exact same rhythm, a visiting London and going to these various landmarks of British history and culture. A second time five years later. I, think is really what prompted me to do it and I. wanted to make a statement to the CAINE Prize, which is, you can actually change the structure of your prize I had also received a prize in the meantime. that. In its very basis gave money to six women writers, an equal amount, and we were kind of feted in a very similar way. We were brought to New York and we were introduced to. And Editors, and so on and so forth, but we were celebrated as a group of writers with people rather being pitted against each other and some kind of competition. I want to talk about about. The Essay wrote in The New York review of books There's an excerpt that I would like you to read. That begins with the words. The empathy model of art can bleed. Me Find It. The empathy model of art can bleed too easily into the relishing of suffering by those who are safe from it. It's a gateway drug to White Savior, ISM, with its familiar blend of propaganda, pornography and paternalism. It's an emotional palliative that distracts us from real inequities on the page and onscreen to say nothing of our actual lives. And it has imposed upon readers and viewers the idea that they can and ought to use art to inhabit others, especially the marginalized. There's a lot to unpack their. First of all like in what ways do you fear that art can lead to the what you describe as the relishing of suffering. Why I think the specific. Empathy model of art that I'm describing. Is what I feel often slips into the relishing of suffering. And this is a relatively new tradition in literature. I trace it back to. George Elliott's notion that the role of the novel is to foster sympathy for people unlike US for other people. And that's a relatively new idea. The idea that sympathy or empathy ought to be the basis upon which we conduct ourselves in a society as a basis for moral action is also relatively new. It can be traced back to. Adam Smith. So these two models I think are very prevalent in contemporary literary culture. The idea is familiar to all of us that we read books in order to take on the perspectives and feel the feelings of people who are unlike us. But this is I think hardened into a kind of. Calcified Model for how all literature should work. And because. There's an implication that the people who we ought to be empathizing with. Are Those who suffer? It means that we've set up a situation where marginalized others who suffer because of class because of race, because of gender because of sexuality, because of their ability are represented in fictions in order for people who don't suffer from those specific structures of oppression. In order to foster a kind of empathy that would somehow lead to social change. So. The fictions that are promoted the fictions that are read our all geared toward a certain kind of audience, and there seems to be only one kind of ethical role for fiction, which is to make us feel the suffering of others. And I suggest that because of this uneven hierarchy of the sufferers and the non sufferers, you essentially have a situation where only the marginalized are the producers of these kinds of vehicles for empathy for the non sufferers I say this is. A kind of grotesque dynamic. And I basically. Believe that. It's not too much of a stretch. From reading about the suffering of others to relishing it, and in fact, delighting in the fact that you yourself don't suffer from the things being depicted in those fictions. That's. A. It's hard to take in why. Well. It's something that I have thought about a lot in the work that I've done with this podcast and in my career. It's an idea that I've thought about a lot perhaps in different. Ways and you've just described it, but I am very interested in. You know I think when people read about people who are suffering and they are genuinely moved by the plight. They can think that somehow. That's enough, or they've done something or that. It's meaningful and I and I feel like part of what you were writing about. Here was your concern about that? It's like okay, so we've read the novel that made us cry. About some other. WHO's suffering. But. So, what or then what or is that actually harmful and so I'm very interested in this and I. I mean. Do you have a direct concern that arises out of kind of the argument you've just made. Yeah I think that. This is a very old. Understanding. Of Literatures Effects. We have the notion of Catharsis which means a kind of pershing or a release of emotion. and. The point of going to a Greek tragedy and watching. Noble people suffer. was in Aristotle's terms to release all of these negative emotions, the kind of sadness you feel the pity you feel the fear. You feel for other people so that you could go out and be a better citizen, so in fact earlier understandings of literature is that the whole point was to release those emotions and then do anything about it. And so I offer at the end of my essay counter model to this which is berthold, Brecht? who was against the Cathartic model and thought we have to always make people aware that what they're watching is in fact, an illusion, but actually agitates. You angers you makes you frustrated enough that in Brecht's words, you would go and start a riot in the streets. And? I think there's a lot of talk recently about. Whether we should criticise forms of literature or the writers of literature who are well meaning. In the kinds of representations that they create, and so the recent controversy around. The novel American dirt by Janine Cummings is a case in point. People say well. She means well. She's writing about this awful situation. That's happening on the US Mexico, border, but. The specific nature of the representation what it's geared toward what kind of emotions it's being asked to prompt us, and also the specific audience who is being asked to engage in this. Empathy for those who suffer all shift. How politically effective a work like that can be? This empathy model while it might be well meaning. Continues to perpetuate an imbalance in the world where there are those who suffer and those who don't suffer and have the leisure to be convinced that those who suffer should be relieved of that suffering. I think the scales just continue to be tilted in the direction of a kind of paternalistic version of Savior ISM. and to be honest I mean I didn't expect you to ask me about the splitting in the CAINE Prize, but it is related in my mind. To Philanthropic Model. whereby the British sponsors of a prize for African literature. are well meaning. And it seems like the intent behind a prize like that is to. Promote certain kinds of literature about other people. But what that has led to in fact is a kind of stereotype of the Caine prize story as a kind of poverty porn. This is something the prize had to resist greatly. As calcified into a kind of genre, this is the story about African suffering in some fashion. Maybe they're using drugs. May they're poor? Maybe they're malnourished. Maybe they have diseases and so bringing writers to London to celebrate that kind of work along a philanthropic model. It's a little bit grotesque, and I think there's a similar dynamic happening in the world of publishing which is primarily made up of white editors, publishers marketing folk. They just released a study of the demographics. They may be publishing works by. Non White writers like myself. They may be publishing works that are about non white people like Janine Commons as American dirt, but there's a kind of imbalance still in the kind of literature that's being promoted, and in what is being asked to do, and for what kind of reader and it seems to me that imagined reader is very often a comfortable middle class, white person who is not suffering and gets to. Empathize with those who do suffer through part. And now we're going to take a short break to hear more about the nonprofit quarterly. If you enjoy listening to our podcast and are looking to gain more in depth knowledge about the operating environment of the nonprofit sector, you should read the nonprofit quarterly magazine. N. P. Cues. Magazine is a trusted voice in the sector that provides research based articles and strategies to give you an advantage in navigating the nonprofit landscape. Save twenty percents off your subscription today. When you use the code, N. P. Q t Ass at nonprofit quarterly org forward slash subscribe. It. Was Interesting hearing you talk about the Caine Prize, and of course all the. Colonial history there. Of England in Africa and the irony there of course and I mean. I think I can probably say this. It's been long enough and I. The CAINE Prize is trying to change. But both of the Times. That I was shortlisted for the prize. We were put up in the Royal Overseas League. which is. Literally a colonial club. Most of its members are older white men who would come to our little reading and talk about. Their nostalgia for being in Kenya in the fifties, and so on, and so forth it was it was sort of in your face is sort of to avoid the colonial implications because they were still so rife in just the dynamics, and the logistics of how the Caine prize runs, and again it down to the money because they were willing to put us up, which is a wonderful and very generous thing, but it did perpetuate a very specific kind of dynamic. Would you go there again? If you were offered another prize by them or shortlist the prize? Now I've been asked to participate in events around the prize possibly to judge the prize and I've Said No. I did want to talk to you about another essay wrote in The New York review of books entitled Glossing Africa And it opens this way you write. Whenever African writers were on a panel together. We are asked about the continent as a whole. It's literature its future. Its political woes. Potential. And then you write whenever African writers get together on our own. We talk about glossaries and you go on to write. But when African writers talk about glossaries, we don't just exchange tips. How long how comprehensive by whom we talk about weather to include one at all whether to offer glosses within the text. Or omit all glossing entirely. To gloss or not to gloss. That is the question. I before I read, your essay had never heard of this term and I'm wondering if you could. First just tell me what is glossing. And why is it such a hot topic of discussion among African Writers? Well, I assume you know what a glossary. Do I just hadn't heard of her. Yeah so a glossary is A. Little mini. Dictionary defining certain terms within an essay or within a novel. and. The inclusion of glossaries in African literatures been a standing editorial question. But there's also to gloss which is to define essentially. To gloss a word gloss term is to offer a paraphrase or Or a translation of a term, usually from one language to another. When we're thinking about African literature I think one of the reasons, it's specific to African writers. Is Because of a question of audience. So who are you writing for? And to? Whom do you feel? You need to explain things. Can you assume a kind of cultural knowledge that white writers writers from the West have assumed for centuries, or do you want as say? Trevor Noah says to make sure to include everybody any kind of speaker of any kind of language in what you right. and. Where do you come down on this? In my novel I chose to attack. All Non English words that included Telugu words from India included. Italian words included French words and included words from various ambien languages, including Bemba John John Tonga so I decided I was going to mark the difference of these words. And level the playing field in some sense by making sure it wasn't just. Zambian words, but words that were non English in in any context. Had Fan letters and van commentary from Zambians. Who are really pleased that there are these kinds of what we call Easter eggs for Zambian readers things that only readers. From Zambia who grew up when I was growing up? Would recognize and understand. It's almost a kind of secret code. And, so in some sense I feel like the decision that I've made. Does exactly what I wanted it to? which was that it opened up? The book to people who hadn't seen themselves or the way they spoke, or their language represented in literature before. While it forced other people to examine their own assumptions about what should or should not be transparent to them on the page. We live in the world of the Internet so if you don't understand a word in a novel, it's very easy to Google. Right. It's not your job to explain it to them. No I mean I'm very interested an F. D. and I'm interested enough in the origins of a word, but other times I'm interested just in the texture of language, and how a word sounds like in Zambia instead of saying flip-flop. We say Potter Potter. I don't define what Papa is, but you can kind of figure it out from context, and it's just a lovely word, and just to give that sense of how people talk, and how people think. I've interviewed many women of color recently, especially, who many of whom have talked about their frustration with feeling that. They can't just show up as black women in a room. Or at an office Radha, gathering, and just be they have to. Be Often. Explaining things, representing larger group than just themselves, and as I've explored Whiteness for myself in recent years That's one thing I've been learning about is that it's not the job of people have colored. Educate me. That's you know that's not their bird, and and I just wonder if that if is a larger issue going on with respect to glossing around that that you as a writer, it's it's. It's my job to educate myself about words that I may not understand. That's not your job is there is any of that going on or am I misreading? Yes although I think that aligns the difference between the language in my novel and me as a person. So. Yes do. Resent having to explain that Zambia is not. Zimbabwe is not Namibia and so on and so forth when people mistake it. That is frustrating to me, but. All of my characters and even my narrators are distinct for me and so the kind of decision that I'm making for example not to gloss the Telugu words, either or even the Italian words in the novel doesn't quite correspond to that same personal resentment. That I might harbor as a black woman. I think it speaks again more to my sense of audience and to a kind of broader. Perspective which is bad. No one who reads my novel will get everything. Not even me because I'm not fluent in. Some of these languages that I sight. There's science in my novel that some people won't get. There's religious iconography that some people won't get so it's not that it's specifically addressed to my black female voice. And the duty to represent or explain as much as it is a kind of generalized understanding that we are all different, and we all come fiction with different forms of knowledge. And you're never gonNA be fully in the light, but you're not going to be completely in the dark, either, and in fact you know my thinking about this actually comes from studying under and teaching with. White male American professor, and we were teaching. T S Eliot the wasteland to some undergraduate students and. They really wanted to know what every word meant. And Eliot famously included a kind of glossary. He included footnotes in the second edition of the poem, defining some of these references and very esoteric ways. And my professor said you don't have to know what every word means in this poem. You don't have to know what every illusion is what every reference is! Some of them are personal. Some of them are literally some of them historical, but he said you know sometimes the poem can go dark, but that darkness itself as part of the experience, so it's actually that experience and that insight that I am applying when I'm thinking about glossing or not glossing words in my fiction, rather than the specific experience that you're describing which does resonate with me. Isn't exactly co extensive with my decisions as a writer, but in that essay you do right that will you say it this way? It seems that decades of explanation have not yet resulted in a global common knowledge. Of African words and ideas. That would make glossing redundant. And so. In an ideal world would glossing. Be Redundant. Because we would know enough. About in this case, you're talking particularly about African words and ideas at that we would all know enough. I think. My sense of. Common Knowledge. What is called common knowledge? Is that. It often entails culturally specific ideas and terms. From the West. So. We understand what someone means when they say June Sekwa, we understand when someone says. And? That's purely as the result of circulation of knowledge certain ideas, certain cultural tropes get transmitted. They have more weight behind them. They have more power behind them because of the inequalities of representation in art and culture. I guess what I'm suggesting is. There does seem to be still this need to gloss aspects of African culture. that. Really by now, you would think people would know. And, so you know I think ideally you have a kind of equality of reference, you have common knowledge being actually global, and and actually common rather than waited in one way or the other, now of course in an ideal world, if you take that to its logical conclusion, than it would be everybody, speaking, every language, knowing every culture, and of course, that's actually not that fun. So I wouldn't say that. What we want is a common knowledge that includes everything. But it would be nice to have a little bit more of a balance, so that African writers wouldn't have to worry about including Nigerian English words in their fiction that these would be words that people just knew because they were so common and affect that they're not common. What does that tell you? I think it comes down to. Power and capital. I don't think it's necessarily attributable simply to racism. Because for example African American. Lingo is quite widespread globally. So it's not necessarily about. Ethnicity or race or culture, but it's about power. It's about capital. It's about the sheer numbers of works by African writers from different countries. that. Circulates. Globally and are translated into other languages. Is this a novel worth translating? Is this a novel worth publishing at all is a novel worth circulating in different parts of the world. Do we have the world rights or do? We just have the US rights? So you know how far an artwork can travel? Seems to be very much dictated by capital still and by the decisions of certain people in power and publishing. Phnom. Wall Easter pell associate professor of English at the University of California Berkeley author of the novel, the old drift among many other writings. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. Thank you so much. and that's tiny spark, which was produced by Freddie Boswell, Nepali, repel was recorded at her office in Berkeley California by Bijon, CFO she. If. You want to leave a comment about our podcast, please head over to tiny spark dot. Org were email us at podcast at N. P, Q dot, Org and subscribe to our podcast on any platform where you listen to podcasts, stitcher pocket casts apple podcast Google podcasts, and if you like heard today, it'd be great if you could give us a rating help. More people find out about our work, also like us on Facebook, and you can tweet me I'm at tiny spark underscore org tiny spark has a podcast the nonprofit quarterly. Thank you so much for listening I'm Amy Castelo. This program was produced by the nonprofit quarterly, which is solely responsible for its content. This podcast is made possible by a grant from the William and Flora. Hewlett Foundation.
EP80: Emma Hammett - Nurse to Online Course Creator
"Uh-huh. I think it just helped to. It's just like you'll never get in perfect it you off forever striving for perfection. Then you will never do it. Welcome to escape the rat race radio. I'm your host Christian. Not well, MRs your ticket to a state the ninety five. Always be outer, I remember my, my cousin saying to me, hope, you know, Anna will anyone ever pay twenty-five course. Yes. More as well. There have confidence and faith in yourself, speak to other founding boards could very useful and listen to them as a reality check. But if you feel confident that it is right for you. Then do it. Hello, welcome to another episode over the rat race radio. My name's Christian Rodwell and today. I'm talking with Emma Hammett. The found of I eight for life online first aid dot com, and I ate for pets is an author press, spokesperson and expert on health, and first aid, she's also, the provider of a ward winning tailored, first aid training with thirty eight different online training courses available across her different businesses, and as here today, the ability to package, your knowledge into product, such as a book, or digital course, is a very powerful way to build your business, and your brand, and has never been easier to accomplish is today, thanks to the many different platforms that are available now before setting up her business back in two thousand seven Emma was working as a nurse in London before moving into hospital management, and, as you can imagine she was working long hours. And when it came to that time when Emma wanted to start around family, she knew that something would have to change will this led her to look at teaching all the skills that she already knew an after gaining her teaching qualification. She then had the idea to combine all of our knowledge and skills to launch an online first aid training business. So in today's conversation, you'll hit the ups and downs Emmerick counted as she launched her new business along with some great advice. If your currently at the early stages of planning, your own escape plan a, let's do this. Let's head on over to my conversation with Emma Hammond. Hello, welcome to the radio. How are you today? I'm fine. Thank you very much for fighting me, very welcome. I can see the glorious sunshine and blue skies behind you where in the world are you right now? I'm in sunny, ballum say southwest London. Just not far from me down, the road from me, so emigrate half you on the show today and Amelie looking forward to hearing your story. And I'm sure our listeners will as well and would you mind giving us a little bit background about your company, the current run and what involves on a day-to-day basis for you at the moment? Okay. So I run I state for life online. I ate dot com and I ate the pets, and I also have a social cause called stay safe and stay safe dot support, which might businesses enabled me to fund set up. So I take for life is practical first aid training. So. Just as jonelle the Red Cross, or other first aid training providers are able to offer except we're all medical health and emergency services professionals, so online. I dot com is allowing us to scales business that they are provided as blended learning with the practical training that will go to later and also online first aid training, so that we can sell internationally and that's been written by myself, and with, with the first aid experts and it to Naples, me scale, and I ate pets dot net, which is a brand new market. It's mainstream in the US, so since John on the Red Cross of a first aid to pets as born everyday offerings. It's a brand new mock in the UK. We haven't quite enough competitors to make it completely viable, but we have. The times newspaper coming to join us on Monday to come in bright above us, and we get quite a little, too publicity, because it's new and it's directly related to the state the humans because it's very, very similar and the same principles apply. So we've worked with vets to create those courses, and I have written books that accompany, the pet side and the human side. Very good. And if the business for for a number of years now, when was it that you set up two thousand seven so a low time we're well, established and would you mind sharing with our listeners what it was that you were doing before you started your own business? Absolutely. So I was unearth. So my background is nursing. I trained Thomas his eons ago, and I've worked all over the place in from burnt units to pediatrics to once with prison. And really joint my nursing, and then went into hospital management is a clinical manager, so I would Hammersmith insuring cross for ten years, and then children does up your career little bit. We do. Love them, though. So I became a niece ole teacher, so I gained a teaching qualification that I was able to use as well. And then I was able to combine all those things together and start up a first aid training business, which was something that always being passionate about doing so the k- there is you actually started. Right. You actually took is something so many, many escape race listeners. They are still currently employed. And on that commute everyday back and forth to work, and, you know, perhaps not enjoying the work as much as they could do thinking is, perhaps, greater things out there for them in life. So how'd you come about sort of making that decision? See new, you had a family on the way and things needed to perhaps change you needed bit more time. I'm presuming I'm sure it's very demanding job. But how did you just kind of figure out in your head, how you were going to transition from a monthly paycheck to actually generating an income from a business and you know what point did you say? Okay. Well, it's, it's the right time to make. The switch. I don't think there's ever a right time. So I think you just have to do it. It's just like you'll never get it perfect. So if you forever striving for perfection, then you will never do it. I think we'll always be out as I remember my cousin saying to me, hope you know, will anyone ever pay twenty-five pants for course site. Well, yes. And a lot more as well because we run very quality courses, and it will be viable business, and, and it will grow so have confidence in faith in yourself, you're obviously speak to others as sounding boards, 'cause ever useful and listen to the misery, -ality check. But if you feel confident that it is right for you. Then do it, and it will be hard work. So only starts up thing if you are passionate about it. I I'm a mental I will businesses through the. British library, and one of my first men tease wills who she called herself a serial entrepreneur, but actually, they hadn't screened properly, and she had lots of ideas that she never got any of them off the ground. So shouldn't have got in the process, and she wasn't possible to mental because the, the premise of what they are offering is that you have to have a viable business is actually, making some money or at least it's trading. So she thought she was a serial entrepreneur, but she was cereal dreamer, and as a big difference, and there's quite a few serial dreamers at their and the rule. So people actually go with it. And unfortunately, when you look at the statistics women, all statistically more likely to strive for perfection before we will launch, I think there was a study that said something night. Different market. But looking at the job market's, if a man applies if a women applies for job, and it has set criteria. They will only apply for the job, if they have all those criteria. They take all the boxes whereas a man will apply for the job, huge generalization. Hip a man will apply for the job if they can take sixty percent of those books as and I think women very often do over think it. And they do want to get up. And if you are over thinking all the time, you'll never do it. So do it. Get is good as you can get a Beata type, and go if you're still working in your business at the same time in your in your day job, then, that's what you have to do, but put that time to one side us you evenings manage your time differently. Make those extra hours create what you want to create and launch it. And then when you get to a point that you are making enough money that you can then leave your job. Then do it. And if you haven't got to that point, but you can see the potential, you might have to take the plunge anyway, because there will be some businesses, which you simply will not be able to grow. Whilst doing a fulltime job, it's not possible, because it takes a lot of time to get your business of the grand, so you might need to think of some financial bridging in order to get yourself so that you can still ache. Start it. Tell you agree there. It will be different for every person, right? You have to take into account your your circumstances. And as you say, you know, when you get rid of the job, you might not have quite the same amount of money, you might have to make some sacrifices. But if you're then going to have all that more time than is going to be the payoff that you're going to be able to then increase your revenue quickly that way. So one of the other things I'm interested to learn about from your Murray's, is really the proof of concept. So back in two thousand seven. How did you how did you validate your idea? How did you kinda says the market and prove to yourself that, yes, there are people out there willing to pay and what some of the steps that you took to, to go about that a bit of clear research? So there's a lot of people with great ideas and it easier if you start with a proven idea, whether our competitors in the market, so sip times when I'm talking to people, they're looking for that unknown exciting. Nobody's done it before. So there's got to be a market. Yes. To some industries that is right. But actually, very often for the maturity if it's there, isn't if there's no one doing it at their that may not be a market. All you have to create the market, and that's a much slower process. So that's what I'm doing with Dokes. It's a tiny market at the moment because it's a new online. I dot com. We were. One of the first to market we're in a very mature market, so do your research. Find out. It's so easy with online. It's so easy to, to Google to see different. Search terms, always somebody out, she looking for Hugh are likely to offer and if they're not looking directly because it doesn't exist. Are they looking for different things? The other asking the questions that your product or service console so that can let you have an idea as to whether there is actually a market is that is that sort of thing that you're looking at on this comes down to, you know, the, the argument over quality versus price and. Often going to shape that can that can bring it. So in problems. Roy. No, that's something you've addressed as well. Absolutely. That was some of the best advice I was given when I started by someone who said, don't go into cheap. I mean if you go in at the cheap end then generally, you're offering low equality. You're in more fickle market place where they will play you off quickly quicker against other competitors. Whereas if you differentiate on quality differentiate with a proper clear point of difference, then you're in a much easier marketplace to appreciated and you'll make it much easier for you. And if you start with your strategy, as a price base strategy, it's very hard to then move to a quality one. Was thinking very carefully what sort of market, you won't what sort of customers you want. So say I rule, you know you've got to be doing something passionate about. It's got it's going to be keeping you up at night. The idea of you escaped the rat race and you've got more time. You've go more flexible time, but actually if I go out. So if I take a day off and go and have a really nice day, and go and do I dunno suddenly in some holidays with my family? I then have to make that time that I've taken out. I'm probably were later in the evening or maybe work through some of my weekend because actually that time and the things that need to be done. Don't go away even with delegation and an an apportioning allot of the stuff in that something else, I feel very passionate about that. You can't do everything and you shouldn't be doing everything. People very often. Weekly when they start out think, well, if I'm not paying someone, then it's a saving, but it's not a saving. 'cause if you work out how much your time is worth based on what you're selling you'll sell oil product. Then you will soon. Find out actually your time is worth a lot more than the amount, you could be paying for someone to do your Adleman or take off take your your, your your, your banking type things, and we'll let the finance element away or some of the other type of tasks, which you can end up getting buried into and then you're not being productive because if you're training all the time. So all the different trainers bit your personal, trainers, or coaches, or whatever if you're at their training, then you're not there on the phone, and replying to emails, which is where your business is coming in. You can't be. Be in three places at once. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. We were having this conversation last night between in a circle mastermind group and talking about these ten dollar tasks like designing things online or creating a lead magnet to try and build your mailing list. And it's a ten dollar task that you could go to a website like five or outsource it somewhere, and it would be done in a day as opposed to you trying to learn some new software, or trying to be a designer when you're not a designer, and you're absolutely right. I think a lot of people at the beginning, though, will will question, and ask, well, if I haven't really got much money coming in at the beginning, how can I afford to outsource and have other people do these things for me? And that's a difficult balance isn't it is knowing when is the right time to start outsourcing. And when not any advice on that, I think you need to listen to your cell, and your family, because there are only so many hours in the day. And if you are. Stretching yourself too far into sin than you're not gonna be any good to anyone to your work or to yourself or to your family. So there are all sorts of ways as you said. If outsourcing I Mike graphic designer is important as areas so you can work remotely with so many different people. You can share someone to help with your admin but until you were happy and comfortable outsourcing, at least some elements, even if it's someone just onto your phone whilst you're training, you're not going to be able to scale knock-about grow. And until you are able to grow your actually know in business, you are operating a woman panned, which is purely training your time for money. They will deliver as well as you and they were to live differently, and you clients will like them and they will deliver better than new in an awful lot of ways, so until you're able to offer that. You can't scale I mean, somedays on inset days. We got a couple of I think it's timber end of August September. We've already got bookings for nine or ten trainers on one day. So I couldn't do that myself. There's no way. So if I haven't been able to offer that scale ability, yes, that takes time because he would quality trainers, because they're they're out there and they are being you and they're being the front of your business. So don't brush, in take kids steadily understand what your core values are. So you've got to be at a point where your businesses got an entity. So you are able to communicate clearly mission is your values and what you're trying to achieve so that you can empower somebody else to do that alongside you or on your behalf. And if you're in a. Business where actually, you know were. It is only use it can leverage it, and I knew some people are in that sort of niche business where it is then outsource everything else. You know, you shouldn't be fiddling with your receipts and things get a bookkeeper to do that for you. There needs to be somebody else they can be done virtually, and you can do it very cheaply. But again, go back to what you were saying about the ten dollar tasks go back look at your time, falure your time and make sure that you are able to bring it in less than you would be spending yourself. And also think of your sanity and the sanity if those around because if you are a frazzled heap your business isn't gonna grow, and there's no point in leaving the rat race. And sadly, that's why so many businesses fail in that first I five years, and so many people do end up going back to being employed again, which is very sad. Because if they go that passion and they want to make it all happen. Then they should be able to do it. But it just takes us thought process to understand what you're doing. Why are you doing it? Cain to rewind you back to that first year of your business. Artwork. What was some of the realize, Asians, and overstay your business? Looks very, very different today to how it looked then you've got many online trainings now. And back in two thousand and seven I mean we're probably talking about the launch of YouTube and Faye. These platforms were only just kind of become popular then so. How did how did it go that first year? What was some of the real realize ations that someone starting a business perhaps, doesn't think about until they're actually in the Fiqh of it. Well, there's also things that you can save money on so my initial logo was produced myself by word and looking back at it. It's not something. I'm proud of. And it looks much better with appropriate designed logo, which in my properly designed logo I did three nine thousand nine hundred nine but then if you used that again, it's a very cheap way of going forward, but you need some money in the Bank. I so we've never had external funding and I didn't want to external funding so any money we needed. I had to set it up. So. Initially were very creative, canvas, another great free much smarter. That wasn't available in two thousand seven of his magic canvas is just the most amazing. For it's amazing. And the paid one is worth going for as well. And but two thousand seven confident exist, it was what it was. Yep. No great. But actually got me out there. So. Then I'm trading. So I will I sat down really hard read my cost materials created it'll, and then I was ready to go. And one of the very first people are trained with Sarah beanie, that was likely nerve. Wracking. So I went along and then she wrote me, a really fabulous review Annan certainly on there. So she setting up a business. Surprisingly easy, it's, it's really easy. You go to companies house and choose claims fifteen minutes and your. You're in business. Wow. This is quite fighting, and then you choose your, your, your website, your trading trading name and off you go. Don't spend a huge amount on websites, initially you need. Shop window and it needs to be smart. But actually a good quality WordPress. One. You can probably get a very simple, but slick WordPress website, set up for not very much money. As is your shop window. I would say, don't cut corners on that, but also bisque extravagant. So just be frugal have a simple one with couple of pages. That's nicely set out and. And again, don't go for perfection. You need a short window, where people can find you, you need to work on your search engine optimization, which can to yourself. So if you've got a WordPress site, and again, I would say, don't go fanned alone, bespoke sites, get something like WordPress, because if it gets in any difficulties, or if you need new plug ins that you wanna put in, you can get that done for you very cheaply through five or through somewhere else. So if you could have WordPress site, you're keeping your options open. Whereas if you go for bespoke site, it's gonna cost you up front, it's going to become obsolete, and you got to be in the pocket of whoever's designed that for we forever for any changes. So what press you can do the simple chase changes yourself and he can prob- way, I would say it's worth going on a basic WordPress. Course yourself, which, again you could. Due line, so that, you know, the basics so that you can set it up, it user friendly, and then you'd go short window there, you want some business cards. So new is what us 'cause again, they're cheap and then nice to design, and they look slick, so whatever you want, you want to be showing people at chilly your bigger than you are. And please don't go round telling people, Loma new stole type. You'll say you're in pacis, you're doing a grand job, doing whatever you're doing, and you will always be very well prepared when you're straight client facing, and you will too absolutely spot on brilliant job. And all the little fancies about getting your logo perfect and things can be tweaked and changed when you more money to do it. Hey, it's Christian here and I'd like to give you the opportunity to download a free copy of my brand new book, sack your boss, the ultimate guide to scape- your nine five by visiting WWW dot eighty or Dr nine four slash sack. Your boss in the book. I share my own story of escaping, the rat race along with a simple five-step formula, which I believe, is the foundation, you need to have in place. If you're serious about staking the rat race within the next twelve to eighteen months. So head on over to WWW dot eighty Donlon poured slash sack your boss and download your free coffee right now. I'm sure you'll agree at the beginning. You just put out your your version one, right website, your logo even even how you describe what your business does is version one, and it's going to change so many times, probably over those first four months that, as you rightly, say, don't spend a lot of money because free months later, it's probably going to change anyway, and it should change because you will learn the whole point of being business being business doing business. Well is to get feedback from people and to learn and the whole beauty of being a small business is the we can move. So if things aren't quite what we would have a strategic plan. So have a strategy in place and have your clear objectives. But if things in the marketplace comes through, or for charities, come through big prepared to say. Yes. And be prepared to then think out of the books as to how you can supply wherever someone's gum. Grab those opportunities because they may not come again. So there's usually way if a big a bit of work comes your way, providing it's paying sufficiently eight make it worth your world. So be very careful with local tenders, because you don't want to lot of work ridiculous below cost very aware of your costs. Are to supply wherever your supplying bitter service or bid to physical good be very aware, your fix Costa, and. And. So that then you will sorting out. And if initially you not make a prophet. It doesn't matter so long as you're covering your costs. It might match if you're supporting your family in my situation, it didn't matter initially I had a little bit cushioning. And so I was able to work my way through. Don't don't offer free. There's if my online courses, I offer free because I've covered my costs, and I haven't got fixed cost to worry about. So I've got much more flexibility for your practical training or your coaching or whatever else you're doing. Particularly service-based people are really tempted to offer it for free, and I would urge against that because what happens particularly things like if you're setting up a children's activity, there's a culture, where leave to not as a whole lotta parents could actually go for the freebies, and they can take their children to lots and lots of different clubs, particularly in the likes of element Wimbledon and never have to pay and there's no loyalty there. So, you know, you can do other incentives, but people will always ask you to do it for free, and I would honestly say that people don't valley free. They've finally extra valley, they value different ways of doing it this way of them coming at a discounted price. Or giving them extra value on top, but free put you in the wrong marketplace, and it can it can come back and bite you off the bun on the bump, because people will expect it to be free again. All their friends will want it for free 'cause you did it for free for them. The only time I would recommend to, to clients I work with to do something for free is perhaps, in that very, very early validation stage just to do two or three to get the feedback and also to use as a testimonial and only just, you know, in that very instance there, but I totally agree that, when you offer things for free, you know, we're both authors, right? And if people want a copy of the book, you know, if you give it away at some of free chances are they're not going to read it because, as you rightly said, they just don't value. It actually I disagree on that. I do give my book away for two as well. But I don't think many people read it when they get it for free as opposed to when they pay for it. I can I think it depends why you've written the book, so I think your book can be your ultimate business card, so some here 'cause I've just got back from the Royal College voting on videos. Anyone listening to podcasts. Then check out the YouTube skied rat race because we're looking at the books right now. Okay. So if I give this to you because you're interested in you're interested in child, first aid, and I give this to you, particularly if you're say you're running a school. If I send this to you, it's going to mean far more than me, sending a business card. It, it actually says Gina, what there's some authority here. She knows what she's talking about. She's working with the child accident prevention trust. This was working with age UK, and rospa. It positions you and it depends. Why written your book for me? It was a positioning. And it was as I said to no thirty statement, and it's opened up a lot of those I have this for free in various promotions on my site where people can pay postage and packing, which covers my costs. And then sent it up for free for core clients, I will post a copy of. My. Yeah. My school's outpost, a copy of this ad with Brocha and it works. I think coaching a ten minute telephone fact-finding, call is absolutely valid. And essentially really good way. But sometimes people attempted to offer an hour long. And then and then you find that people are milking you for the paid stuff definitely where is it different from ten minute finding the other things? It's really useful that can fit in with that, if you want your, your fact, finding and then take your take your customer through, and even better sales journey. It's to start with something like quiz. And they can work really well to evaluate where someone is. And then follow them into your ten minute phone call, and then you can take them on the journey to, whatever it is that you offer an all of this, of course, if would fall under the banner marketing, and Mark is an essential skill of any business, if people don't know that you exist, then you're going to struggle so marketing experience, did you have when you started your business in the house, this volved over the last eleven or twelve years? Well what was a hospital manager. I was sent off to do my Yemen, diplo very management, studies and various things by Hammersmith special helpful charities, it was them. And the marketing, I learned then although the basic premise of what you're doing. Was found in terms of taking a month three were here awareness interest desire action, and that site, and whatever it's being called now, however, there was no social media. So in terms of learning marketing, and learning the very. Core slightly cold elements that you learned before it's so different. It's actually fairly worthless in many ways, what I learned previously. And what you're doing now. It's amazing. There are so many opportunities to get yourself noticed. Absolutely. Just huge people like video people like blokes as well. Not people, very often people saying, you know what the, the days of the blog are dead. I disagree, certainly my marketplace. I made the decision when I started to go into to content marketing. That's what I did whether I called it that will not is now the handle that, but I had a WordPress, blog and the beauty of keeping your blog fresh and up to date means that when the little Google spiders go across looking for anything new, if you are regularly blogging on your site, they will always find something new. And that means that in Google and there is always an active site that will encourage people to come if you are then going to Facebook or Twitter. Or Lincoln and you're driving people from those audiences through to your side. Then Google says. Wow, you've got new visitors coming all the time. And that's really exciting. This must be quite a good site. And if you're able to do that more and more than they ranked key higher. And if he writes, so I write for myself, I also write for the nothing times for the British dental journal for the British journal school nursing to authority and also links, I write for the British library, a link from the particular every hugely valuable a link from the nursing times is huge value valuable I write for the mail online to go the bell on stop very high. But you know what the male or line is one of the highest read millions and my mouth. It read it. So people say the important thing is hang out, where your customers are and initially, I didn't quite understand what they were going on 'cause in the pediatric market, it's like I don't really want to be hanging out with the kids all the time. It's not. I've done that. But if you think about who's buying for the kids, it's the parents. So I want to hang out with the new mums. It doesn't mean physically hang out, necessarily, although physically hanging out with GP at the Royal College achieve Jeep general dishes this morning. It's about understanding where your market is likely to come into contact with you, because we've all heard in order to know, like, and trust, you, they're going to have to say you at least seven times in different places. So if they can see me in the mail, when they in the newspaper if they can then follow up and see I come up, maybe a couple of days later on the mail online, and then. They are sitting in the GP surgery, and they pick up. I don't know copybook 'cause I've given it to them for free. And if they then see a flyer that I've got because I've got nicely printed flyers that people like because it's got things they wanna keep, so if they see a flyer on a friend's bridge and someone shares something that I've written on Facebook or Twitter then certainly I'm in the head. And I've gone from somebody, there's sort of fake Lee wear off. They don't need me yet they may have no interest in buying from me. But if the have an accident, and they found that they weren't didn't know how to help all if the pregnant, and they want to know how to help the new baby or if the teenager. Wants to do that. You hadn't Burr wants to know how to do once to their skill. Then certainly if they're looking on Google. They're searching and I come up, I'm familiar to them and none of that. Will have cost me very much. Although Facebook is now a paid platform, and I think we as a business, we all need to understand that, that to push it properly, you will need to pay intensive Google arts. I burned quite early on with Google ads at Schramm back to them again. And that working for me. I understand everything much better now and if Google will help for free. So when you start spending a certain amount on a regular basis nor a huge amount, but it's certain amount on Google, or on Facebook. They will contact you and they will offer you free marketing advice. So one to one call with someone who knows what they're doing for an hour, and they will share screens. And they will take me through setting up my ads the way that will perform best. And then when I get reports back, they will then help too. To optimize them and that's invaluable. So we are drawing towards the end of our time. But I just want to squeeze a few more things in review before we go online courses, and on setting up an online business is something that is, is, you know, one of the top ranking things that people who come to my skate, various meetings. They all want an online business. They want this passive income, and I know you're businesses, a combination of online and offline but in terms of online business, and, you know, the courses that you sell you know what is some of the benefits advantages? Why do you think that, that is a good way for people to perhaps begin learning on my world? It's, it's, it's been pivotal to growing my business that, that little bit further. And I, we sell online, I eight dogs courses in America, and Australia, whether very popular, and it's great. You know it's, it's. It it, it's a great prophet because once you've covered your costs Salang as you're paying for a major platform. So again, very careful, there are various plug into you can use WordPress, that can give you tremendous functionality in your online courses. So we've got thirty six online courses in fact, actually, we got thirty eight now because I wrote to more. Thirty eight and they're all a bit different, but the, the rule in the basic format where you've got videos. You've got step-by-step directions. You've got infographics you got pictures. You've got test yourself, sections that interactive, you can stop and start after nece- like, and there is a big test yourself section at the end, don't pay too much as up front costs to create them. It will cost you money. It will cost you good faith thousands, but spend a lot of time researching different options. I would say. Think carefully st- you want to provide there's lots of platforms the offi the ability to do short video courses and if that fits and let you Daimiel something, and then they will market them for you. But they will also take cuts if you want troll created yourself and I'd say that is usually no need to pay. Long term costs. So you shouldn't be paying your platform, 'cause if you're paying your platform, then you've got a continuous fixed cost. Whereas if you paid for your costs up front, then you knows that you've got pretty much one hundred percent prophet, which is very nice situation to be in the night can't give them away. So then have the flexibility in the gift to give something that would have value of ninety seven pounds for example, and the content is incredibly valuable and worth entirely that, but I can offer it to you for free, and it's not costing me anything, so we is a great value to you. And it's a real gift for me. But generally, and it is a generalization if you've got to really make tech business, then you might be up there, and that might be the best place for you and you might just go back. Generally sort of teaching coaching product type businesses, I think start whether is the markets and then differentiated through it dentistry agree with that. Absolutely. Always always. Yes. As you said, it begins with identifying someone out there willing to pay some money know if you don't know one of my mentors Roger Hamilton, who said, you don't have business when you have a product you have a business when you have a customer. So you can spend lots of money and lots of time creating something that in your own head, you think is the next best thing. But if no one's she paid you any money for yet. Then you aren't she and got a business yet. Absolutely not go back again to see what people are searching for. Is there a problem there, thirteen for that your product or service solves, if so you need to probe further so it might not be that you're there, but probe further, and you could well be on with the winner? Okay. So what advice, would you give to someone who's listening right now who wants to start your own baseness, Burt? They're being held back by fair. Maybe there on that commute back and forth to work each day. You know, they're just know that something bigger and better within the haven't made that leap of faith will take an action. What would you like to leave your parting words for them? So Emmer advice, would you give for someone who's listening right now? Maybe they are squashed up on the train, or stuck in traffic, dry on their way to work, and they really want start your rhyme business. Something's holding them back, most likely. It's fair. What would be your parting words for those people? Well, look around that cheap, there appropriately three quarters of them feeling exactly the same one of you gotta take the leap, otherwise you're still be doing it in the next three years, but just be sure if you passion, just be show, you want to be living, and breathing that for the next few years, 'cause that's what you will. Doing if you'll make business. It's not to Matic panacea. It won't give you more time. It will give you flexibility to your time and for goodness, sake, if it's what is in your head, and what you feel passionate about and you've done it. You get your together and go and do it. Grow voice will. Thanks so much for sharing your story. New experiences today with our listeners on Skype radio. And good luck fuel business moving forwards. Thank you very much. Joy speaking to you k.
RETRO AIOTM (Series 3, Episode 3)
"Hello. Welcome to another retro occurs to me is the twenty-fifth one? Can you believe put out twenty five of this? That's how long lockdown and this virus has lasted my Christ as our silver jubilee we mentioned the baby, the Paris want to mention their gender, and in this episode that baby is now nine year old child of indeterminate gender. I wonder if it knows yet what gender dis but we've learned I'm we gender is not important my fine friends. Let's not put labels on things. They were right all along. I've learned many things since nine years ago. If you want to preorder my book, the problem with men that would be lovely it's available everywhere you preorder your books you know those places head over there the more we can sell in advance. The best chance has there is an audio book as well. And we're doing a very special podcast within that audio book with Special Guest which I think you'll enjoy as well. So they'll be extra content on the audiobook which can get from audible all wherever you get your audio books I think okay. Thank you very much. Let's sit back. Relax enjoy yet another as it occurs to me my friends from the old days. Abby. To. Hang. Still sounding. Somehow I'm still going. I'm running on fumes. I'm still hello and welcome to the silver jubilee is the twenty-fifth edition of the show the. Driving instructors. Cooling? The sepals for? Recycling Buddhism. And Wonder popular of everyone. The stand up and sketch show written at the last possible minute by a man on the verge of a nervous breakdown who should be getting on with this proper paid work i. come to the next square theater every Monday to repeat the same five jokes in a slightly different Hoda. Said no money. Yes twenty episodes in a way we should be celebrating in a way and to celebrate this incredible achievement. Every schoolchild in the land will be receiving especially minted commemorative come Pumpkin. Me Come Kim as. We all know is to find us you make the gentlemen. Getting these five men to come. Inside. Jack. ORLANDO. And then throw in a pack of Polo. Stir five minutes virgin delete they get a woman to put Ito. made his sleeve made especially with the kids. It's less brackish. Any way to win those sweet tooth idiots onto the real thing you. Might be thinking we think. Were you thinking? You're taking hold on his stomach now grand that. You'll be responsible and perverse to give Duncan's to schoolchildren is wrong. You made me sick for even thinking about that and anyway it's minted Kins now granted. It's a week where I have them about the exciting news that my unique brand of excrement excrement and desecration of the sacrament jokes are going to be preserved for future generations on Tuesday waiting patiently for. Together to the microphone. On Juice Day. Seamless on juice. The. Rest of the trips. Coming in you'RE GONNA come. On team busy with enough beads buzzing away. Last Tuesday I received an email we'll set. The British library would like to all the following website www richard herring dot com. We select archive sites to represent aspects of UK documentary heritage, and as a result, they will remain available to researchers in the future. He's right. It's amazing. It's true. Not Making this up my website and my blog, my podcast considered of such historical importance. They're going to be preserved for future generations. That's bad. A Sony. What isn't it? All Man from answer me this year. So Need Gold Sony Award. You might not. You might get to review the newspapers on Sky News at six thirty am. Next on interested aim hose which I know because I was up at that. Tornado. Of course you know holly but only when you're hanging around the toilets hoping for bumming hundred polling. USO The box in that range. You wish you and becoming. That's how low you'll explorations. Why share on? My blog. Taking down the rival. Blog will be used for historical research. I am the new Samuel peeps although we got lucky with some of his source material eager to write about the great fire of London whereas I have to do with the great we of Caffeine Niro Hammersmith, which isn't as good. I still did well with it by God's. I'm glad this happening because my humorous. So sophisticated that only the evolved human brains of the future will be able to fully appreciate to. Show you fools of today like apes that Mohan. Chatter get some simple enjoyment from the swear words and reputat repetition of phrases high backed armchair. fucking idiot. You're not mentally equipped to understand one really doing it. There's levels to this. You can't even say. So let me just say this is the people in the future hello. Getting I'm actually doing enjoying this week's show. Don't worry. disembodied rain in this. I know you'll love that in the year twenty, five, twenty, five even. It is it's Surreal. Quality. We, think, as you listen to this, every person in this room will be dead, just dust and dry bones. Every laugh you here is laughter and these. These people want so full of life now, nerves that skulls and permanent silence screams in the soil, and whilst you few jacket America full of life and join now one day she'll return unto the dust and so whilst you can laugh heartily as I talk of come Kuenz Dunkin's and many companies. Will be when you're listening removed. Zone Kim's probably China see. Twenty four twenty five comes up your happiness is tinged with the dread of what is to come your own denies demise. Tonight's audience the walking dead because you've paid to come and see the show live downloading it for free all the idiots. So you have a chance to commune with the future across the unbridgeable chasm of time. Is there anything you'd like to sham out to your silver to send? A message message. The few willies is it is the message. May he had one shot. That's the that's your hallway. That's all that's going to survive. From your life is huge Zhang with you'll be the player who was that he was not only did in his life. Showing. Some five hundred years into the future. Academic. Once your listeners will remain anonymous and forgotten the names of you others will live on. Thanks to maybe on that tool relies remarkable those names are. DVD's Emma Kennedy. Was To this week I. Ten. This morning from a weekend with my partner's family, they took a house in old. People, families. I. was quite a beautiful place, a toy boats boating lake by by the front and I was struck by. A. Healthy and looked. So I decided by sex government. and. It's also this excrement of my sisters sisters. My daughters. My my partner sisters no. My partner system. They were not to kids there. Anyway. About them. All little toy, wooden toy boats, handmade boats that beautiful. Lovely. And Ruined by them being called eight inch. He's one of the reasons kept. Attending bump leases but. The said that. Damn Academy Happy Birthday this week fourteen. Forty, nine years old. Before nine. Nine years. Forty. Four associate. Fan Pretty bad before i. Nine be amazing shave. And the this week in the wake of you. Just reminded me what you said about the Chevy's. Is. Staying in East kilbride and was. Around this week, four times to them focus. Staying with a friend of mine, he's a homosexual gentleman and he's just moved to his kilbride and I looked A. About six months ago he showed me the brochure to his new house and I pointed to the address said surely surely. Surely joke and he hadn't realized because his new house is twenty four, inch Keith. and. That's given any gay listeners in East kilbride's some lead their way you may want. Give to live up to the expectations. and My mother I saw him of the best luncheon. She s she asked me how old was. I'm Christie and was. To you this week I, can't wait. Always my favorite show. For is. More dangerous than asking people in the audience. Likes Wonky face does he? He's he's liked it on facebook like he's liked him. Liked it. Definitely him you will pretend to be. Somebody another comedian wrote to me last week. The last week song should have been called. He said I know it's really annoying when people do this. Should have been called here comes the bone. Is Right it's really annoying yet. But making lake six pounds. And you would some. Joy Imagine than, Texas child as. Well as occurred to me this week Tuesday twice long rapture predictor. Harold. Camping came out of hiding to reveal the once again made a mistake with. The rat, she's not going to happen the twenty first of May that was released the twenty Tober now, which is actually mine not girlfriends automatically birthday. She was annoyed with this news not because she now only five months to live which would warrior but because it's going to really still focus from me on my shoot. We pretty. So she's right about that, but it's more no information because I'm going to have to waste money on a birthday present that she's not going to have any time to us. Come on. Jesus Zero PM Mate Make Day earlier and I'll be quits in. Module. That far pit some hell. Any fees it's going to be really tempting for me to push. Sunday ten people have died in Germany as a result of eighteen Kellyanne cucumbers, which is the second most embarrassing waiting to be killed by cucumber. They say. They say they beaten the kid can can be a coincidence that all the deaths of happened in Germany a place. What makes all its food an easy to answer a? Country Spoon Dan Tassell the famous. Anal dildo factious as ain't within his name can a cucumber eighty kill you if you eat it always more likely the Tom did dantesque smuggled those cucumbers back through customs in. New. York. Fell natural to him. I can't come can't kill you on as became infected. Other Jim and people who owes cucumbers they were going to eat vegetables Germany, they were gonNA. They inserted this is why haven't if anyone's relatives die to business I'm sorry. But. Cute comes to trying to expand. We've been horrible to the cucumbers in the PAS sliced in the not putting you in Salads and sandwiches then removing them from the side since I'm throwing them away. It's no surprise cucumbers trying to guess plenty of the cucumbers situation. I think. He's developing you see if I'm wrong laughing now some of you. You See Monday Canadian couple Kepi with to and David Stop have been defending their decision and this is true to keep the sex of their four month old baby storm secrets msuic told the Toronto Star the idea that's the whole world must know what is between the baby's legs is healthy safe and virus eighteen. That's what she said is genuine cook. Too Much More of that to come. It's hard to argue with isn't it? Unless you have a tiny remaining vestige of sanity in which case is easy much healthy. Of course, is between the babies like should remain secret shameful and unknown and cause of speculation. Around the whole world in the media goodness, we know from the super injunction thing don't we that that keeping things secret doesn't make people desperate to find out the truth so all they're doing and keeping the secrets making it more obviously more people we want to look at that babies gentles weekly would never have wanted to look at them before they will now be desperately trying to look down in that baby's nappy. And that's disgusting I'm they set themselves on almost impossible challenge because they know what sex the child is, but they after the rest of their life, they've got to talk about the baby with Ashi. Saying him or my son and my daughter they've gotta try go eight to all. He Mohur, they've got to talk with. Him have call him or her chemo her and the band to slip up at some point and say him or her. Instead it. Quickly saying all her all all him depending on how? They said, it'll be obvious which one as because we have. So. It's going to be very difficult to get through that whole store maybe only four months old but you can tell from case is obviously a boy. Just looking. Have you seen the Patriots it's there are more ways of talented sex with his genitals. I don't know if these people like staff is a big fat little boy. Put It on the picture on the on the podcast blitz me how. You can tell from his upset and confused face that he already knows his life is fucked up beyond. January I'm seeing the look on the face of that look on the face of a baby since I last checked Amazon and so one hundred books about baby massage exactly the same. Output up they're exactly the same face. Shoot you ain't to ensure the storm doesn't find out that he is a boy because he is a boy is to in blinkers for the rest of his life. I'm tired hands behind his back. So he can't touch himself I. Don't need that money's parents saved him from untold psychological damage. As it occurs. Laws as. Someone had passed. In my one good here. Sweet that's a one star. Review our that came. Through some great Terry and Man, he has no comment on Monica given us so much information about person in so few words and yet let so many questions tantalizingly on answer who is this great big terry in what way is he great doozy big or is he just fantastic? Direction is big broad toll new both how did he lives here in one of his ears? Why would even consider the possibility of someone shifting in his cavalcade? Has It happened before? Is that how he lost the hearing in his one? I can only think of great big terriers Pinhas Brimming with excrements unable to enjoy. This show worrying might be stereo isn't. Don't worry you're getting into the get out of this God bless you. Great. Big -Tarian only defecate in your you know Canales. Our Canal. Plant. She. Now we was. Inside this weekend I was Filming the Amsterdam I'm comedy festival and in International. Needle. High flee with Easyjet because I enjoy being stripped of my humanity dignity and being treated worse than being transported to the abattoir on the way back me and my fellow victims on my flight will hurt it into a tire and with no seats in. Down for about thirty minutes having to stand waiting for the plane to arrive and to be elapsed. This seemed no need for such treatment. I can only imagine the Ian Easyjet, the the owner of Easyjet Easyjet. Gets off. On same extreme discomfort. He's watching the whole thing somewhere on closed circuit TVs and high back down chair semi sick the toilet Matt around it. Is, going to be. Thinking about as life to pay extra money get what's called a speedy boarding pass right which means you pay like ten pounds excellent it and you get go in a special cordoned off area where there are a few seats enough to accommodate everyone that's why you waiting and then you get to go on the plane. I and sit wherever you like the front if you but the thing is you're still travelling on. Easyjet. Doesn't make me those people walk around looking kings of the we get on the plane. Bad Ben. Still Easy Jank. As if you ban me in first class that doesn't make I getting to sit way you want in the lane and it's actually better to wait until the end like I do because then you don't have to stand up for ages and then you can see where people are say and you can choose you want to sit near night found a whole row empty seats want for him. So fuck with you ten pounds you're better than me. The Scar on top of the skull. Anyway stood with another comedian waiting for this to be a man we just talked rousing tug draw forced me and my aunt excuse me I was yourself. Use it going who motorcycle around the world with McGregor. Not I'm knocking. The show. I am pretty sure. I think covered remember most likely. It's just been studying looking at you and I thought you look like someone and I was. Pretty sure you might be solved around the world with the UN McGregor. Now do get that that's happened before, but the blood could the guy cycle motorcycle around the world Immigra- over six foot tall and hideously ugly. So I'm not. I'm not him thinking. Sure recognized you from somewhat seems fishing. Now you recognize they didn't know I wasn't going to help him because the rules of minus celebrities saying that if you can identify the minus celebrity correctly by name, then they must chat the for at least thirty seconds. Maybe you get the wrong monitor name, we'll the perse no obligation to Converse with you can shutting you and you have to shut up you might say, Oh, come on half recognized you. He's Maiden Ingrid. Nice Guy Happiest. Misery. By reply I have some fucking prides. I'm not gonna pay for Johnny Bowman scraps. So I said. Even is it even if? Two. Favorite scrape, it isn't different persons. I read this. Is Why set just wanted a pause for dramatic. Even. If I had been the guy mode slugged around the world. Yoga. fucked off, you referred to me to my face as the guy, you most likely around the world with Humor Greg. Them by actual name. So I probably wasn't the most I've been around the world would you and Rebecca even if I was the guy most around the World Mcgregor? That mean you. Know. Just maybe you should get your facts straight before you interact drum up right into russell then weighing the easyjet's. Person I know him. So there you go. If I go around the book, McGregor Jimmy Think, I'll be flying on easyjet out at least the paint priority if I was. Just wrong up via McGregor and said, Hey, do you WANNA do some most like were made from Amsterdam to London because what a right you were busy this. What about? Another, day. Oh, you busy then this well, I didn't I didn't actually tell you what the other day was. You show you. You sound like you know about life I am not I'm not the. It's just been really bugging me I over that. You Talking Back TV show you've been on so I thought he might be. He was getting greedy. Now listening to our conversation, I couldn't help overhearing give them the plans quarters we've been heard into by the Easyjet, Nazis? Yes. That's why I'm saying. That's all I'm comparing them to. But, to blatantly admitting bring out the he'd been listening what was wrong with him. I said, no, I'm definitely not the guy he mows like around the world with your McGregor right. Morley. No needs to be a prick about it. Of course. I could've prevented all of this point satanist curiosity Megyn the and afterwards I regretted the way behaved it was childish I do differently the term. Thanks to the magic of. I can't. Ten. would. Leave. A. Excuse me can I just ask us a guy you motorcycle around the world with McGregor Yep? That's me. That's the guy most around the world McGregor Nice to meet you how you doing. What can I for? Recognized I just wanted to say hi, sorry. A half got nine. Don't worry about it. I actually prefer just being called the guy he mows. With you and it's easier. Spaces. That defines me I have done nothing else in my life. I just remember you're not film The forest no, no I wasn't I wasn't I have done is most around the world with Yoon recognized could be worse. I'm proud just plugging looks like the guy knows around. With the in regularly better than that guy on. At. least motorcycle around the world and I am friends with you McGregor. Autograph yet anything for a fan and anyone who's found enough to recognize me is the guy who around the world with you and McGregor Oh that makes you a big enough fan for me. What's what's your name? Go to Simon. Great to meet you love the Guy Around the world. We Ewan. McGregor. Yeah love most likely make. Cash rings. No would you know? The longest catch raisin I love most likely me some people like. I say around have a guy that doesn't need to be peddled an engine and stuff. On my cat ASAKI. That's up. Give McGregor. then. Spices. His is mcaliskey. Right. I think. When you come on stream, you could be the guy who most like around the world guy. Around, the world with you McGregor people might Hof recognize you apples. We'll think other people when they know imagine being mistaken for the guy he mows because around the world with the guy he mows around the world with you McGregor how small that make a minus lepetit failed Sorry, do you WanNa come around the world me on. A Going by most. Funded. By most like being close. Some good show. Then come to my house, he's my drinks. So. Yes. This. Burden. Then later when he turned up at my House Go You macos around the world with McGregor. It's me that guy who works around the world with the guy who. With you and McGregor. I'm ready to go around the world. Any that's interesting. This actually you mistake. Not. Guy Most likely around the world regular. I. Am actually the guy used to be on that thing back in the nineties member Arabic talking pumpkin something. We shoot late McGregor Stewart Lake. So I can't even motorcycle I tricked you babies you get better at in vaguely recognisable. One is something I hope people in new lesson. Concern. To. Be the. Second round the world with. A practical joke. Mistakenly thought I was the guy who cycled around. The. Water Cycle. I feel that I watched the guy who pulled the second around what? Could. Sketch. So let's go down. To See can do on the TV. Audience to see cutting them this week remembering member said. Andy Mackay your. La Witness. This week. Fifteen minutes ago. He's Listening to have a story about East kilbride. These Bryant I. Grew up in Tennessee. Three. Well. It's twenty four inchcape. Miss some fun to be at a young gentleman in. Top I'm not going to judge you show about not judging. Don't prove me wrong by being a thought. Was Surname. Louis what's? This week. You listen to me in history and I. I have to say. I saw this on twitter. Apparently I am. So what's the worst? In history the. About his religion religion. Religion and Culture Britain Richard Herring is and as a wrestling match, I would like to. Genuinely is this on the school curriculum we'll just as your teacher. In religious studies this was in history. And he's Inspire is a terrible thing to think that. It's in the same weeping archived in the British library. Those two things actually came into my twitter same extreme. Actually, dead I am dead. Yes is it? What is this? Or remedial. Where's IT fooling? Property is. Also. Used to be. About three hundred. Eight. NAP. Just. Perfect. It'd be who said the best in the they decide one half. The paint your school. Yes I am I am the best. And we'd excuse me crazy. IS A. Disparaging down to a frontier, the front. Tell us. You're fine from Mumbai to London. To Catholic nuns on your plane. And of course, they do they racist is a racist. When they do they dressed the same. The same. Any given time, there are at least two nuns on the same plane as. Saying numb Fannie Magma's. What's your name? Sadda-. I've got A. Proper. Indian accent. So. That's good. Yes I. Nuns stalking maybe. I. Understood it. Too. Told A. Joke didn't get. Comedy. EUCLIDEAN geometry. He pleading Joe. Machine base joke. Amongst my favorite. Over and over so he doesn't he. Says the same thing over Me I do. Do. were. Showing. ME. Across. The, stroke yeah. Ghost you. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming from Mumbai is the. Two nuns every two hundred. Takes we'll go for a lady. There's a lady there. Hello. Hello Steve on. What could Christie this week is. Supposed to go see. Duran Duran. Not The only one yet. Kennedy also even worse to tell you carol. Not How Is. Lebron's lancs is gone. We think needs to man up. This morning. Big. Picture and Listen to this listen to this this. This is Jim Leyritz the Rio because it was. The. Topic of Fandey. fucking lyrics. You think you're easy on me, your bags, easier nuclear war I fucking. Draft. He. Off. Because it was gone. Morning. Because it was my best day. Why they? Registered to sink. Thing had arranged for me to be given a birthday cake by Duran Duran backstage I fucking hate. People on. A and B you WanNa let down the people because they will hunt down and kill you. Some sorry about that. I'm here if that makes sense that makes. You love me. You don't know all the lyrics to my. Clothes. Was Thank you want me to world. Ranchi friends. She left a copy of my ten in San Francisco. This could be a new book I left my copy. You should write this syncretic Abba Candy can wipe. Account I'm telling you that. This stuff to write and the stuff as in that remained a bookshop. You hoping to get a free. Cup because it's not going to fuck. She holds onto the I, bought my copy of a book. See, I went to actually give you haven't got any left now. Because they will out. Go to war stones go meyer copy and. Combat. For you. You can come back next week. Okay you. Are, you can't wait is such an exciting book. You couldn't wait a week. One more. Request hello is. The first off you've been hearing. Aid. Have Seen. This is actually wrestling this woman. Remind. Me Of your name Meredith, of course, it is and what's your? What's this week? attack. Attack you. fucking witnesses. I may have sexually is. Verbally sexually assaulted, you is a very different crime. WHO. Your tax or are you gonNA test. Take say Oh my God had how deep shakes. And it was wrong. From your friend Young Lady. Young lady in the. Said, she might consider having sex with that four hundred. Has There's an expansion shaming up became. Worse than that. Would be funny to Shame Hula. Smiley face and she's actually if you see she's actually now showing. Signs say. He's fourteen to come and see. What he's. Bad at least to. Say You. Should've could've seen thanks thanks for sharing that. What's your name again, Emily Emily. So where where'd you go to college? In Rye Gate. So anyone listening right game. They want. The most we now anyway because. Trump bomb. Once you've got you might as well show off. If you go, I'll do it next week I'll try and get my cash into. Probably be some kind of Anderson. There's no much man can do. Once you start taking the away a man is not it makes a gray. That's the thing to remember maybe you take you. Take it away from the base shave around the base. I'm sure you've seen this important. Maybe. They. Shave. It makes makes gives the parents is bare than. What some people do is they cut the ropes in. Not themselves don't do the. Search, to do it. Is like. Kind of iceberg the penis I know I, did. Most of its well, hopefully, most of us on the ASS laugh so we'll reverse. These great. Grave drinks. As a good penis, they're just kind of. Fear. Bit, Chubby baby within an inch if you're lucky. You cut the guy and he can push. This is education who is. Being this is a beautiful thing. It needs some problems. Because they're now. Left my ten in. San Francisco Leave it. And gave you should other each. But what I'm saying if you worried about this, he's been email Alabama and I thought is the Otherwise, the best on discussing. Graham. Is. Just shave some of the people. Don't you. Oh, he hadn't even done. He can take I. Wouldn't actually US The cost this on Saturday came from Amsterdam and at my house having a pie because you know it'd be good to get drunk two nights in a row when it had become. The party was come as teenage self. So I went to that party and everyone thought I was making this up I went wearing a no man's jacket and three times. Three times in a row. Never good one. Teenager date. On occasion I'm usually at one but sometimes. I was wacky and the sector. Fashion. Show A G was about the same time as the. Why why not least virginity when I was nearly twenty I'm calling understand that you think a man a young man with an old man jacket in three capitalize on. Would go crazy for that. Do you have any members of teenage? He's They're all horrible remember. I. have to wear waistcoat I. Think possibly the go to your party that would have been embarrassing. Memory of telling some talking a great length about Britain theory. Trying to impress a girl. Work? No, no, no, no no. That little success. As reject from haircut one hundred. And the the best thing that happened an teenage plaza I went to apologies if you've heard this story of Our we had a racy go ask Ole. Monica. And she had a brace. And it was and it was one that you know when you get. Also. People here for brace. Snip that in the middle. When about a month or from not having to have any more. Catchy lipitor and we're. So she goes to Gordon shed with a young. And the next thing we know. Blood curdling screams. Blood curdling like a wounded animal at sounds I have never heard before losses and. Brace at become impaled in. The young minds. But the best is. Because she couldn't get the Brazauskas. He's penis and we all stood. Watching. While this boy was carried out on structure. With Monica West scuffling loan signs. Head under a red blanket. Wearing teaches give me dance. To come and see the show to get. Buying DVD's. Remember we brian bankrupted. We had a very well party. Has. Away. So if I'M W in Bryan. We we did all kinds of terrible things, but we did draw cox behind all the pitches. KNOWS, the houses up for sale I tempted to. Say is. Owned by. The Cox. Still by. We'll move on. Do that do a sting the. Sting page fourteen say. ME. The, all good audience insurrection is over now it's ready for the on which material. World onto. Thank you. Scorpions you've been right good old. The best. Not much to this season after say. Diaries have always been popular having night from Adrian. Mole to Bridget Jones hit the did and then pretend you didn't going about some of the stuff he said. Now. Fancy him. Now. There's a new skit on the block is time for the diary of PIPPA Middleton's disembodied anus. It is a truth humorously knowledged women in possession of a good Budig must be tabloid newspapers taking photos of US without permission it if we give an opportunity but the truth that new one of knowledge. Is that the anus the bomb bleed whom if you? It's a more important part when this is one sleater that is prepared to make a stink about it. It's me pivot Middleton's disembodied. Humble disembodied anus of the sister of the future queen just trying to make a skit. Malcolm the world. This unexpected diary? This week I got a call from my manager seriously Middleton's disembodied is you have to stop rigging my gut nothing for you. Nuts picky about the food who shoot. Don't you lis- they have. NO IS A. Like An said? No will. Cool be. Discoloration Ring Picks Display They cost standards always framed picture you know. One of the pictures of honorable young actresses we did fingers in their pants. Pressed, the bracelet novel Vulnerable Young Actress Whoa Sucking on their fingers if it wasn't this. Imaginary disgust a few rule rife. There was a picture of a disembodied tradesmen's entrance air instead. Maybe who good deed from blue. From bluish no interested in addition boating decent bodine. Very extremely. Someone, attack. soiling. Nearly minimums Irish public. Already for celebrity disembodied much we'll be saying it's. got. It was a long colder comment for. Dimension. These do anything anything to overshadow. Buttocks it's almost liberty. Give me out of here. That's launched. Just. I'm going to be a stall fish. And by the end of the week. Indigent. To. Thank you. Chris, you've got four stars. To keep this. disembodied on certain. School. On TV. As business now I see. On TV just. Raiders here. Female. Other increasingly desperate millions disappointed. She slash it will be back next week I expect. To. Fit This For Reagan each section on the shot, which many of you enjoy the. The ethics of something I've done fail to do in the last seven days I'm the audience decided five acting Marley immorally or already for those of you what being amoral this is lacking any moral sense to all robin being immoral, which is deliberately not conforming to other people's sense of morale thing that's Clearly. This section I must have a notion of morality because that's what it's about. So if you vote I'm aimal than you ever. Sing I'm still going to give you options worry. As moral as it's immoral tomorrow bees borough. Get, hazy out scruples get lazy. Our conscience goes crazy with it exclusively to the music of hazy. You. Get trapped in the maze. Ways to borough. Days. Things obviously backpack. This week on the moral maze beaten Porn Sephora. Zero six. Days. Old. When I was travelling out from London I was flying Easyjet. Remember that we at least in London we add some we could wait we go sitting down waiting to board somebody would desperately trying to get on the plane I explained they should've understood that there were seats for everyone in the don't you don't get any quicker. We okay. There at the same time you have to wait for the train at the other end you fucking idiot. Ian Easyjet Carter arouse if you'll see too. So do sit down and don't queue up they were there are lots of groups of nasty looking men going down the down for the weekend for some reason I, don't think they were going to see the van Gough Museum I have to say though if they didn't say naked ladies, they were gonNA. Tell you prob is where you have to go. For the deluxe pussies ask. You Got APPs I'm just GONNA see normal Dutch Pussy now. That's where. There's was anyway anyway. I look at what everyone was queuing up on the front of the queue I passed and been in full. So everyone in the queue I lack glanced into the been I, know someone into that been in the morning time on Friday, they thrown away a porn was open and you can see a picture of this. There were so desperate for that porn fix they they needed to have a Mac to get them to the airport tide them over. The dam, they couldn't go for that two hours with avenue pull marijuana bravely just before the I'll. On our flight can cope from an hour what then I'll pick up some more on the other end these through customs we've my poem. They. Smell with the red light from where they were and they went to guard. The Pool it was a sad I- topless woman staring out from amongst the rubbish. I felt uncomfortable about this situations I thought I should ask about it because there were there were there are reasons why not leave you that Hey, the pool magazine by Char is open on top of it and they should be protected from such things I think secondly. The magazine was paper have been placed in a regular been. If he was going to be throwing they were of recycling bins around it sounds. So that was built, wrong should at least been recycled property, he has a gentleman. I wrote the young lady in the picture the dignity of not being displayed that inner billion of Isis. Galant man would rescue from this humiliation that's was thinking fourthly, the young ladies in that magazine, it kindly posed nude for masturbating pleasure gentlemen and just throw away on news. I think deeply disrespect. To them and what they did for a living shouldn't I discreetly take the magazine and then later when I was alone masturbate, facetiously over every single image in the magazine. Path. That would only be polite. But. Conversely tomorrow as it looked like a fairly softcore porn magazine, which won't be enough to get me going explained. Getting old now, but it's the kind of Paul Maggot teenage boy might enjoy unable to purchase themselves. That's like Manna Heaven, is it been bold and that's why if you fourteen years aw, that's the only place you can get pulled over. Tougher leads. You. WanNa Retro. Tonight, like I was that was that was a rarity that came along. I was saying if I took it into used all three away, then they wouldn't be able to have a plus I was conscious as well. There's a lot of people around I'm a nationally known comedian. I don't WanNa be recognized by anyone and then become nationally and internationally known as the been porn comedian man. So desperate masturbate you material that he would take discarded and secondhand magazines out of been also wife to remember this is something that I don't have to worry about their moral lives is the most people when they see me do think I am Charlie bomber so. I have a responsibility to hey, Mommy's reputation baby ways that might cast Pablo on screen people thinking Charlie. Would take second. I left. I left I actually decided I would leave the magazine I waited off my left magazine independence I just wanted to. I didn't take left in the bedroom had acted morally. Couple of questions. So did you at any point take? Out of the just a quick look now. She'll understand through the. Coin. that it was so cool which would suggest to me. You've had had a decent look through. minute. Finish the job judging by the picture I could see it was just the Lady Anna Pants and I would say even a hardcore porn my doesn't bother me they don't. Know How I imagine. They're going. So I that show. I. Venture. She. Actually every orifice wanking off to the next page. They don't do that. They just go straight to the anal penetration. Rations. Forgive me in the mouth. About this. Getting, you should have done this master mind. Vatican. Soft. What? Did it. Look If in a toilet, there had been a high on jazz. and. Semicircular match. have taken the. Now seeing mom taking it for all those reasons before. So I'm not sure what did I do this from my own reputation I'm pretending that I care about Charlie Bormann's reputation. To decide I'm just relate because when you sit. With skull fucking cokes it. Terrorist. Anything from there up, with this. Morning I would've the first thing. He deserved it wasn't a man or woman on this. Earth? Wouldn't cheer me if I was doing that I go to that site ground zero with the do that. Back, would stand up and cheer me while I was doing. Is what they want to say. I think I. Think. Is. fucking the ice. Okay of Muslim he around you go down. In America. Don't do enough Ghanistan. Pakistan. Situations. You've done this show we. Do the show, fucking bin? Laden. Baboo that now I wouldn't do that. Is it different? On. Zero would. Road in Belfast. Through that 'cause I don't think there's no. Maybe He did the right thing I think. You know one man's mate should be left the room. But even though your child could have walked past to make improvements breasts. You framed it completely. So you have to do is close to cover of the magazine ended up. Touch it. Took, another man's. See Now we get into now we get into it. Yeah. It has. The point. Sad I'm Paul. Is promptly. Thrown away but still it's not is not anyway it's up to the audience had the arguments. If I gave, you decide I was immoral. Then why would do as a punishment by my own pool I masturbate over every single Pane Pane Michio v Smearing Bite. Days covered. Completely covered respect for the people what they do. What they want everything even advert pages even address because. Our cover those then after I've done that I, then give that magazine to a needy adolescent Amex. So. If any boys listen if you want a magazine, we'll be covered in the same before and three year old man the dried on semen. By the free Mac. So if you think I was immoral. That If you think leaving the porn bill. That and everything was. In order. So if you think it was I think I behaved in model fashion G now. Why and If you think doing more in the Emil immoral fashion call create how Me More. Easily the punishments more. Immoral. Crying. They still away if you think it was a moral. Gee Now. You. Beginning. If you still don't understand the difference between being amoral and being immoral. Gee Now. That's the same people asking. The win as I was amoral each. These. Days. Sunday. Fourteen. Fourteen Four between fourteen and seventeen if you're listening to you have to come in. Dental because I wouldn't want to give same inchoate. Under the age of fourteen. Questions will be. Sort of. Separate pages or So. I hadn't really considered I didn't think I built the audience that was so awful they. Must have been three things. The other things I was definitely. was moral they just. Don't trust the public anything I will I'll work on hot. Take some work. Re A. Pool Maggie next week. Leave. Merge on the Orange Express. Dishes go. He's. Go. Now Kristie. Highly. Weekly. Song. It's an appeal on behalf of this guy. I, don't know if you'll be able to relate to it but. Bit Sixty him tired from a night of PD. With, is not imagine there rib girlfriend. He's got a lucrative TV drama to right but it rather making. and. National Lampoon's European vacation. System beyond. That systems. That To be to. Please the NBA until now, all that system to. Leads. This seat belts to. Put flight two months to them. Let's see. Full Report Maggie in a trash can wondering how did it come to this? One Week it's have I got news for you. The next season, the Cafe Nero patrons, Lou standing in giant who is. Talking to speak to us. Sister Be Yonsei. Tilly now, all that. Seems to be to. All that sister beyond. Be until. Now, all that won't be on. Kiss. He's crying in the midst of physical skip where. Is My golden joy stay. The. Going Son Self. Record. So. That's near the end of the show only three more opportunities to. To me life ever. All the next three Mondays at the theater. So did come down a lot of a lot more fun. Isn't even come then. I'm. Doing cliches this yet the ember fringe Kook. Eh for boys love anyway at the Underbelly Arish Hearings Edinburgh Fringe podcast stand take his legacy. The venue websites I'm appearing poppies flat share slammed down, which made the thirty first. That's Tuesday the Phoenix in London if you want to come down with. Funny Boys that'd be available to download for free from my teams and British comedy clips stupid system because why would you say? Do that through spending any coming up, Dan, you want to publicize going to be on novel bill this week it's good. Coke pledged. To literary festivals. Sante. Michio has taken a fucking down to. Should be paid to be. Around. Me But Chris you'd like to. For the next week. MA-MA. Land. because. Negate undoing list highlight unless on Saturday night. That, that's the best thing was off match. People in the middle. Christine Riley they can. Going to be songs about me or you're going to broaden. This weekend. We're. Talking about so Just. Coming up to the end of the show and the point where I'm. Traditionally interrupted by some tax I'm going to make the edit so if you could jump ahead now. China thanks for listening. See you again. On their don't end the show yet. So. You say oh. Does whichever one is eight. Four she is A. That's the Canadian for the Canadian, comedian. Canadian. Couple who say they say what sex their son or daughter is obviously boiling? As good. Is. You know. We've flown. From Toronto. Disappointed any riches. People for the nest that chooses to make A. Critically, he's your lifestyle to knows everything about the way you speak because your life is fucking ridiculous and unworkable. Is Our son or daughter not sees I. Said, that's All. Pick. Mama all parents imposed systems on their kids I mean look at any religious family, they tell their kids to believe the same. Is is that not. Ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's still knows this what you are doing. Keeps be. Cat. Just you. Not WanNa say what sex, but you don't want to give them any accent aggregate. Every single say in a different accents or your child when Kunst accent. Keeping the. We, ask it'd be be french-canadian but. Toronto's infringe Canada but I, do they call them kids called me a lot about themselves children of fucking idiots if you don't tell them what to do frightened. Made up ghost made up Jesus then they will kill themselves pretty quickly. I. Agree with your gender stereotypes a bad thing we should. BE OVER THEY WANNA babe. I also think. You. Shouldn't child's life in order to make that point and you would just equally creating your own moral system, which is just ridiculous. You oppose it I mean the boys who play me douse evaded me. Maybe Maybe. down. Stand. Maybe. Income. But we. Were Like Cheryl Cole. Road. It's going to ruin. CIANCI's Mexican think Canada's pretty much. June's candidate. We don't GonNA talk ten next. Bomer again. Race this foot. Good different races was I think the whole idea of willing child is weird I'm disgraceful that's the thing. People should dispose of their sex improperly even to Kim semi secretariat map onto secondhand having magazine. We say then to fourteen year old, we'd evidence as fourteen. Ib Future Generations are listening to this in the Bristol Irene if you respect. And revere me as as much as I think you will. You'll stop having children altogether and let the human race diet natural death. We're all doomed. Any explained we're born astride the grains we plop into the dirt beneath we laugh at a couple of PODCASTS and bad Canadian. And seriously, I've actually WANNA have time. Now writing the script is three, forty five I have to print the scripts up from there S O. Explore this sketch as I had hoped to in the time available to me as it turned down. because. I've written however Britain was no. What he said, that's the end of the show Kennedy. To me, we have one thing happens on this show we never improviser thing. PIGGIES tightly scripted by. Bad. TV's. Kennedy Qiming Greece. Friday did all the Bad. Man. Matt. Agrees. Scape. Thank you. See you next week.
Canadian author Judy Batalion on the young Jewish women who fought the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto
"Around the world more than eighty women have accused peter nygaard of crimes ranging from rape to sex trafficking. If far exceeds jeffrey epstein. He far exceeds bill cosby. He exceeds anything that i think are worlds as seen. So far a pattern of predatory behavior spanning half a century nygaard denies it all but now he faces criminal charges. Just a poor man. He would have been jailed decades ago. He hid in plain sight. Evil by design available now on. Cbc listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast on this day. Seventy eight years ago. The nazis moved into remove. All jews from the warsaw ghetto. Earn allows men was a survivor of the ghetto and she remembers hearing about those plans to transport them to concentration camps. Was the first time that we heard about for blink because you know people like to fool themselves not no fuss. I mean this goes for my parents and we just couldn't believe that needs to her dinkas transport the cash to As they call for. Nick clark you know the places where they are going to gas you know kill myself. It was impossible to believe and yet jews in the ghetto became determined to resist for twenty eight days. They revolted. this is anna. Heilmann order of the day was that we are not going to be taken a life. You know. we're not going to be allowed to take on the transport and i was all Hyped up was it. I knew that this is exactly what i am going to do. We have not going to go just like that. So was just a conviction we are just not going the determination of anaheim and other women in the jewish resistance as part of a holocaust history. That is often forgotten. Judy battalion writes about their struggle in her new book. The light of days the untold story of women resistance fighters in hitler's ghettos. Judy good morning. Good morning this is a wild story. How did you stumble into the history of these jewish women. Fighting in nazi occupied poland. I stumbled into this story completely by accident. I was living in london at the time. And i myself am a granddaughter of holocaust survivors and i was interested in the generational transmission of trauma. I was doing some research at the british library around this and happened to come across a book that i saw was quite unusual. It was in a blue fabric with gold lettering and old book and it also happened to be in yiddish it was called foyers into ghettos women in the ghettos but i always say even more unusual than the book is the fact that i speak yiddish so i started reading through this just out curiosity and what i found stunned me. These were pages a two hundred pages with information about dozens of young jewish women. Who fought the nazis in faulk them from the ghettos with chapter titles like weapons ammunition partisan combat. It was simply a nothing like any holocaust narrative that i've ever heard heard those stories before. Do you think yeah. That's a great question. And this sort of became the sub question of all my years of research on the one hand what happened. What is the story and on the other hand. What happened to this story. How could i possibly not have heard about this. And i get into much more detail of course in my book but some reasons. Our political their ways of the story of of the holocaust has been shaped for political reasons in particular in poland and in israel. There's also a question of zeitgeist. I think we've been interested in different elements of the holocaust at different times. We've also been uncomfortable talking about different elements of the holocaust at different times. But a lot of this is personal in. It comes down to the fact that many of these women didn't tell their story. I tried to tell them and they weren't believed or they were even accused of collaborating or sweeping their way to safety. Many of them felt a very pungent survivor's guilt they. These were women who were setting up a working for the red army espionage missions smuggling weapons broad daylight and yet they felt that compared to their fellow survivors who had been through switz- save they hadn't they hadn't had it that bad they hadn't suffered adequately they didn't mirror it telling their story yes and then and then finally i feel like many of for many of them are very young. I'm reading young women. When the war was over they were you know in the early mid twenties. They had their whole lives ahead of them. And the had nothing they had no families no homes no nationalities and this. Was you know they needed to start over. And many of them felt great. Judy to Have children to repopulate the jewish people to try to raise families in happy healthy environments. And so for all these reasons. Both both heartbreaking as you say and for i believe coping coping as well these stories seats silence for a long. Take me to the warsaw ghetto. And what it would have looked like seventy eight years ago today. The warsaw ghetto was the largest ghetto in poland. Certainly at its height it had almost a half a million jews in a very small physical area. It was crowded there. Several families living in one room. People were starving. There was very little food and people suffered from illness lice. And you know everyone felt tremendous fear. They knew that their their life is at risk at any second. They felt fully occupied physically and mentally. Who in that context in in those awful conditions who made up the resistance because the resistance as you documented than the book Was made up of people with a range of political ideologies. But most interesting to me. Was that the resistance. What what we think of as those who fought in the warsaw ghetto uprising were primarily youth. They were young. Jews old anywhere from about sixteen to twenty five And they became these underground grill militias really because they had been they'd been groups before the war. These were youth movements almost like the scouts and they had been very dedicated to these youth movements in the nineteen thirties before the war and it was these youth movements which promoted it was their value system their spiritual intellectual social training ground. It's easiest movements that became the fighting units in the warsaw ghetto uprising described those fighting units. And what those young people were able to do again in the in the midst of an awful situation and with a worse situation perhaps even looming so these fighting units were comprised There it said there were about seven hundred and fifty. Young jews who participated. I should say about a hundred and seventy five one. Hundred eighty were women. The units were small groups Ten twenty people usually based on their youth movement affiliation. Whatever their politics were before the war and these units had acquired weapons over the past few months they had Both from was often female careers. Who left the ghetto and help arm the underground's smuggling in explosives dynamite materials to make molotov cocktails as well as ammunition and they also the the the units had they had strategy. They were there were meetings. There was a head of the of the of the uprising of the of the koby. They called it the jewish fighting organization and they strategize the best way to to attack the nazis. How did they do this. I mean what was the scale of the deception that they were able to pull off you talk about it. I mean people moving across lines with fake papers and as you say smuggling in weapons. How are they able to pull this off. You mean the smuggling in particular. Yeah so this was done so this was frequently done by winning because women. It was easier for women to pass. It was easier for women. Jewish women to appear to be christian women and so that they were able to leave the ghetto. If ju together they would be killed. Jews weren't allowed to leave but but jewish women for for for various reasons which all come back to you. Were better able to disguise themselves as christian woman so they would slip in and out of ghettos. Sometimes climbing over walls sometimes going through basements slipping through gates going over rooftops sometimes entering and exiting with a workgroup a forced labor group. They would kind of the head and enter an or exit. The ghetto gates with this group. Sometimes they just paid off the guards and then when one woman was on the outside she was better able to pretend to be christian because first of all women were not circumcised. So they didn't have a physical marker of jewishness on their body. Women in the nineteen thirties had been educated and while many families education with mandatory in poland but many jewish families had sent their sons to jewish schools for for for financial reasons. They sent their daughters to polish public schools. In in these public schools girls learnt catholic mannerisms habits even prayers and most important they learnt to speak. They talk about this all the time. Polish like a poll without the creaky. Yiddish accent and so women women were able to perform they call this. This was their life and death. Performance a constant acting job where they they pretended to be christian and as such went to meet with weapons dealers went to meet with contacts from the polish resistance and the countless stories they found of them putting weapons into marmalade jars Sacks of potatoes teddybears fashionable handbags that they would also purchase or borough were just taping them to their torsos. Nineteen ninety-five a college student disappeared on a trip across the usa. Portia missing right away but they went. Take it so. His mother started investigating the case file. I started going through and saw people. That wasn't interviewed. I joined this mother. Search for justice or you recording us. I am someone knows something season. Six available now throughout the nineteen eighties. Strange phenomenon was sweeping north america. They were in a panic and like people in a panic. Allegations of underground satanic cults torturing and terrorizing children. The thing is there were no satanic cults preying on children and nearly thirty years later the people touched by it. All are still picking up. The pieces doesn't work of fiction. This is a work of history satanic panic available now. Where did they find the strength to fight the nazis given what they were facing in the ghetto. That is a great question and thought about this. A lot and i think it comes from a few different factors at for one. I really think these youth movements that i mentioned before that they were part of before the war. These were very dedicated to these movements and these movements trained them to feel pride in their people and in their heritage and they train them to act they train them to collaborate to work together and i think their their training was to really feel collective pride and to be able to fight for that and to work together to fight for that i think is a huge part of it also they. They were furious. You know they were when you read the diaries and memoirs written in the woman from by these women the ones written during the war. They're they're not. They're not sad they are fe- you worry. They are passionate and filled with grief and filled with anger. And these women really. I got the impression it was. They must they they were. They were filled with a need to go fight for justice and to fight for liberty. Tell me about some of these women. Zivie veteran who she is available back in was a leader of the youth movements even before the war And so she became almost naturally a leader in the warsaw ghetto of the jewish youth. She actually was one of the women right about who in nineteen thirty nine had escaped from nazi occupied poland and she came back she smuggled herself back into nazi warsaw because she felt so responsible to her people. She became a leader in the warsaw ghetto. She added with german polish. Jewish councils and governments she helped get young jews out of slave labor camps. She you know she. She had very jewish features. But she didn't matter she would especially in the earlier slip out of the ghetto. Help people try to find rescue routes. She became a leader in the planning of the warsaw ghetto uprising. She fought into ghetto. Uprisings there is a small uprising in january forty-three followed by what we commemorate today. In april nineteen forty three. She was had a gun and she was a guerilla fighter. She then fought in the polish resistance. The warsaw uprising in one thousand nine forty four as well And after the war after sorry after the ghetto was raised she had to go into hiding. She she again. she'd looked. She had very jewish looking feature she. She couldn't pass and from her spot in hiding. She helped administer rescue organizations. That helped over ten thousand jews in hiding in warsaw managed to get out of the ghetto. She got out of the ghetto through canals. She helped lead a group of rebels. A group of fighters out through canal sewer Canals that were. She was neck deep in sewage water and they have to try to find a manhole where a rescue truck was gonna come pick them up and they ended up staying under there for well over twenty four hours forty eight hours and the fighting that she was involved in. I mean between the resistance. And the nazis was really intense. I mean th this was 'cause he's coming in essentially to destroy the ghetto. These were coming to destroy the ghetto and to kill all the jews. This was actually a bird. Was supposed to be a birthday gift for hitler that finally the warsaw ghetto would be completely raised. All the jews would be destroyed. And you know it's hard to always get exact numbers in this kind of in this round. But appears about two thousand. Nazi soldiers were sent in just on that on that beginning liquidation it with tanks and she said she described it looks like a whole country was going to war to come kill off the remaining jews in the get it. Do they expect. The nazis expected to be any hint of resistance. Let alone the resistance that you document in this book. I do not believe that they expected any hint of resistance Especially at this stage of the war where jews were so starved and so week And you know there are many women right about how shocked they were. That women were fighting one woman. Masha few she went to the to the roof of the building. Their strategy was to fight from the rooftops. This was the jewish guerrilla strategy. And her she. She talks about how her her fingers were shaking. She was so excited and nervous and she could barely light the match to light the explosive and she did it and she's flinging it from the roof and what she hears our did nazis yelling. Whoa in how calm. How come a a minister fighting. That's what shocked them. I think they were taken by surprise. Tell me about little wanda with the braids. This is another Woman who was part of the resistance. Little wanda was the braves was Her name was negotia title bomb and she was from the communist youth movement that was her political leaning and she hurt her back. Dick and this is before the worst ghetto uprising was too. she was in her twenties. She actually had history degree for more university but she dressed up as a sixteen year old polish peasant girl. She braided her hair and she put a kerchief in inner. Heron she she. She looked like a peasant girl from the countryside and she used this disguise to access nazi homes and offices and would then him so for instance in in one story she goes to shaw. Which was the nazi headquarters in warsaw dressed like a polish peasant girl and says she she needs to speak to a certain guard about a personal madder and the assumption is that she's pregnant and he he's gotten her pregnant and so the the the guards at the stop let her in and show her the way and then she walks into the office pulls out a gun and shoots the zappa man in the head and then puts the gun back in her her pocket and and walks right out in sort of meekly waves goodbye to the guards at the door. She was on every gestapo most wanted list. And she was dick named her little wanda with the braves. What eventually happened to her. She was caught on in forty three and killed but it has an incredible legacy in terms of what she was able to do. I mean and that's just one of her stories. She did this numerous occasions. She actually ran a military a training group for women in the worse ghetto for the uprising training. Them on how to use weapons she. She was involved in so many so many efforts. What does it mean for you to discover this history. You mentioned at the very beginning of our conversation that your grandmother survived An and survived. You write about this in the book at the end of the book survived. siberian gulags. And you say that she lived while never quite surviving. Tell me about what this this story meant to you personally. Well i mean as as i said in the beginning of our of our interview of you know this. This started with me looking at generational transmission of trauma And and how trauma was passed through generations. But i think this project made me also think about how heroism is passed through generations. How strength is passed through generations You know i've i've really rethought my own personal holocaust narrative and also the general holocaust narrative. I now see it as a story of constant resistance and resilience and struggle and and fight. And i truly feel proud to come from this legacy. What was your personal narrative. I mean you say in the book that you spent a lot of time trying to get as far away as possible from the holocaust. Yes what did you mean by that. Well i think. As as i was saying i felt that the the trauma of the holocaust had passed through my family I was an extremely anxious person And in my own family. Various anxieties even hoarding disorder and mental health issues. That i felt had had come from living through really traumatic experiences had had passed themselves through through the generations in my family and so how does doing a book like this and doing this research and meeting the descendants of some of these resistance members. How does that change that narrative for you again. I was refocused the narrative. I think there is for myself. There is a lot of focus on the trauma or on the difficulties that pass through the generations. But this is also made me. Think about the as. I said the strength that has passed through generations and i just thought about it in a in a in a more perhaps hopeful light. Can you imagine being one of those young women sixteen years old in that situation. That's all i imagined. Day doing the research. What would i do. Could i ever have done this ever have done with a did i don't think so. It's a remarkable story. I mean dude. Do the descendants of those resistance fighters. Do they understand what what's there Relatives were involved. And you go to israel and you speak with with with The family of one of those resistance members do they do. They have a full appreciation of what they were up to. So i met about twenty different families of course of women who crew survive in israel as well as in canada and the us and some of them did know quite a bit about their mothers or grandmothers and some of them knew nothing. They really knew very little about what their own mothers had done in the war As i was saying earlier many of these women didn't tell their stories in particular to their children so in some of the families. I am sending them information I'm sending even publications that their their mother wrote in the forties fifties I've been sending it to families. They did not know it is a fascinating story. I learned a lot In reading this book judy. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. Judy battalion is a writer for montreal. Who now lives. In new york city her new book is the light of days. The untold story of women resistance fighters in hitler's ghettos for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.
Interesting If True - Episode 40: Doctor Yeti, That's Who!
"And welcome to interesting true. The podcast that believes laughter is the best medicine if these are your only other options. I'm your host this week. Aaron and with me is the ever impressive shea. Hey i'm shay. And this week i learned that if you take the threat out of a sewing machine it becomes a stabbing machine. Oh god. I learned that early on in project runway. Karen make work the first time you see. Somebody run a fingernail through the machine. That's that's the moment you decide how much he really wanna be able to work on your own clothes. Oh comfortable. I can't that that's just but now it is time for another todd. Retails of terrible tree is the to for. That was a lot of teams. I'm an illiterate myself into a corner here pretty quickly. Well good. Because i like the starting. Because i always like to start with tease. We'll get tt's later and it's a shame that Jen couldn't be on this episode. Yeah we miss her. When last we spoke of the yield e medicine it was pre plague when we all get together and now having quarantine for what feels like forever we might have some idea of the desperation that drives someone to wear pigeons in the hope that they're healing power will at least get you to polian back in one piece so personally i've been carrying around my fox back heater bag fox's and your shoes of patients if you wear enough animals covid can't get you it because no one will come within six feet of me. That's why right. That's the best way to enforce social distancing right there sir. Are you wearing rotting pigeons yes. I'm just going to stay over here. Yes i am. And i am not afraid to fly their pigeons their bullets sickly sound. But yeah if govan doesn't get you. One of its mutants spawn might apparently but enough about jubilee. it's round two of the medieval ish medical nonsense. And this time it's personal or you're gonna find out if she knows enough about yielded doctrine to be proclaimed if true studios new resident on-call physician and aaron did assure me that i would get a certificate if i win that's right and i promised to use mostly not comic sans. He did promise mostly. I wasn't excited if you were dirty. Dirty villager in the before times. You're probably worried about yield a european super death or as you lay people may know it your senior pestis way. Howdy was it. A past is this is it. This is the plate. Is that as the play by the end of the second plague had killed nearly a third of europe and yes i did say second plague turns out that it had three runs. What runner we at right now. In america you're quickly working on number four. The i was actually known as the plague of justinian and it affected the sas immi empire or you know the neo persian or the last persian imperial dynasty empire and they apparently had be. I didn't know this. Apparently they're enemies were the byzantines which had also ravaged so these were all black. Death plague all plagued proper. Oh wow because i guess i just. I wouldn't have assumed that it was that old. I just think of dark ages. And that's like the big one that is that is the only one that you think of. But the initial outbreak in the byzantine and persian empires killed an estimated twenty five million people and then over the course of the following two centuries it's recurrences and spots here and there killed another twenty five million. Wow did this job. The jobless feeling wanna kill him again. The second was the black death which ran wild through europe on flee covered rats rather than the noxious odors attributed it to but refused to really do anything about until august of eighteen fifty eight so that was the more traditional one that i think he. Yeah when you when you think of the black death you think of europe probably and that's why the plague doctors were those stupid masks packed with things that spelled nice to ward off the plague. You're gonna wanna keep that thought okay. And that's mostly because in the west we think of that one but the last or the third leg was in china so apparently it always kind of moved around the area and then stayed in the southwest. For some time before infecting guangzhou or guangzhou or canton is western name. Which is a water source for nearby hong kong apparently in the first month that killed like twenty four hundred people but in total it would kill some twenty thousand people becoming known as the eighteen ninety four hong kong plague. Ooh yeah and because hong kong is a port city it's spread around the world becoming the first kind of proper pandemic. We really paid attention to or at least according to these articles on globally infecting people with icke black death but also a ton of anti-chinese anti-haitian bigotry and in played a huge part. Apparently in the gary act the chinese exclusion acts. Oh i can't remember those here in. America is bad. that was bad. Yeah yeah and so closing on that nightmare which actually itself didn't prop up on paper until nineteen forty three and given what you've learned about the plague and our discussion if you wanted to avoid the black deaths faded grasp shea. Where's the best place to store your farts that that was a very long preamble to a very silly question on. Where should i store them. I'm going to say inside of me. I shouldn't fart. I just got to hold them in until explode. Just blow up like the blue kid from wonka. You gotta put them somewhere. I do have to put up. So i can. I just cut them. Put them in my hand. I do that to my way. I'm surprised she's still my wife. Honestly i guess you could jar. No that's right. The correct answer is a mason jar. Specifically emesa chart. Brandon is such a ball only mason jar. But i keep my thoughts in a ball jar select. Apparently if you had jars or containers around your house the medical advice of the timeless to keep your heart's in those jars back if they if they attributed the black plague too bad smells. I guess actively not putting bad smells into the world. You're getting there would make it safer for you to breathe right man. You are well on your way to a yield medical degree. That is actually the logic. Are you serious. So those masks that the yield plague doctors were the big beak on them was full of like rose petals and things like that my asthma or the bad smell away and so this is the poor man's version of that. Like if you can't afford a plague masks you can you can in a jar. So so what. I'm hearing is dutch. Oven my wife or farting under the covers and pulling it over. Her head would probably be a crime. I know that's protecting your family man as as the head of the family unit. You have to do that. I make breezy inside. That's the truth. No no physicians using the word loosely. Tell people to trap. They're terrible tissue turbulence. The goal wasn't to stave off the lingering effects of an all boiled cabbage and sadness diet but to build upon stockpiles in the event of an incursion of black death. These lifesaving jars of your own literal farts were to be used as a breathing. Apparatus not unlike airplane masks or cartoonish. Lee holding upside down canoe on the ocean floor. It would provide you with the breathing gas that you need. I'd wait breathing. Farts makes you healthy. Thought breathing farts made you sick Well because it's a fart and not the black death ese. Oh area go difference smell and because it came out of you you know. Let's say it's sterile to your own body or something. So do you have to label your heart. If i breathe my wife's parts. Do i just die do naturally. Just i'm like yes. It's like mixing medications. You don't wanna do that. I did actually do a little googly duly on this as you know you've got to. Yeah but it turns out from reputable sources in the show notes that it was basically one of many smell based hail marys. This one in particular would later be known as the therapeutic stink like like yours like erin. Oh my god so the idea as you said on the face of it like the face was full of roses. And if you weren't money having person you could avoid these stink of death by chasing it away with an equally pungent odor david halla van author of why you should store your farts in a jar and other oddball or gross melodies afflictions remedies and cures which by indefinitely buying on amazon yet. Kind of what. Let in two thousand eleven said quote it was believed the plague was caused by deadly in the air so many doctors thought it could in turn be cured by bodily vapors they figured an equally foul vapour like a fart combat the disease so they suggested patients store their farts and ajar this way when the plague appeared in their neighborhood they could open the jar. Inhale the fumes to ward off the bad vapors that came from the disease knitted made sense to them into quote so beyond vishal just being poppycock. Yeah this did not l. baby one and and have to smell it like a week later. Nobody's later than oxygen you. Would you would have to do a handstand jar far but let's still smell like fart. I think we might have to do some science. You have a mason jar and a fart. Steve lives really close by. And i have both well. If you're going to do the science you best get a sample. you won't mistake. You wanna make some french. I what smells like the french surrendered here next week on mythbusters. So there you go. Basically you wouldn't get the plague from the miasma if you deluded the infected air you breathe of something equally oracle so y'all warmed up now shea hike guests so that was your warm up. Your medieval medical spidey senses tingle. Ari'el let's do this all right good time for a bowling old white man to have his say in this medical show. You're looking to receding tell that to ashley. She told me bald yesterday. Oh no this is olds leach book. No no it's a big old notes in the text is right a line of course and it does appear to be written in some kind of elfish. also it's got a bunch of lv stuff in it so where you go. I guess the book takes its name from a random phrase at the end of the second book which reads a bald habit heck liberalism seed quayum consulate Ish blah which according to wikipedia and my amazing linguistic skills translates to bald owns this book which he ordered clyde compile. Well good old. Clyde what languages that is like old anglo-saxon it's actually kind of a compendium. It's like a collection of stuff so it's a bunch of different languages. But they're all like yield a european languages. Okay so it's nothing spoken nowadays. That's why i mean. None of that made any sense or had any sense down. No and it does genuinely look like elvis kind of rooney elvis. I mean even just written out in just written out in typed out. It looks kind of elvis. She it's unfortunately. Of course that is a lie because bald is almost certainly dead in the book now resides at the british library of london. So there you go ball. It should have been bald. Owned at. this book is a white that and put a little carrot in there with a bic pen. i'm sure historians will love as long as your penmanship is good with that. Let's dive into our medical tests are sha- are you ready to be called a doctor by at least some people on the internet yes. That's a qualification. That could get you a government position. In times of your. This is the test of baltimore. Good bonds book is a compendium of medical knowledge and it was translated as part of the same maintain. Manuscript digitization process has inspired our last episode. o shea. If you needed to cure your work you would. Apparently you would apparently crush together. Some beet root and honey then smear the juice all over the patient's head then have the patiently face down in the sunny area until the mixture melts and runs down the person's face. And if that didn't take you should repeat but this time add the additional curative elements of laurel oil and vinegar. What pray tell was bald seeking cure. Oh this makes so you have to wait until you get hot enough to run down your face. You said that right right. So this is how you cure. Giuliani's verbal diarrhea. He might have been practicing that day but it clearly didn't hear anything obviously didn't add laurel oil and vinegar yet mabley naked face down in the dirt that well it will. It will cure some extreme cases of julian azam but now this was designed to cure headaches. Okay so i guess you put it on your head. So it'll cure your head. Even though it sounds like something you'd spread on toast. nothing else. At least you get to lie face down and nobody bothers you which is probably good. If you're having a photosensitive migraine but you also then have ants crawling on you. I would imagine so. That's not ideal this on your wife. Next time she gets a headache. Oh you're not feeling well honey hold on. I'll go get the honey and other stuff in our how is nine percent. Sure you probably have all the ingredients in your house. Probably do bald was a big fan of mixing things with honey he He really fancied that particular route. He had a sweet tooth. He did it. And it was from a fox any wrapped it in the hyde of a fawn. And would press it against you if you had muscle soreness. That's i didn't put any. Oh yeah. Wow yeah that's that's where that to. The headache is caused by a head injury. What then should the doctor apply to his patients head I'm gonna start with honey since he liked that. Yeah and it's a good place to start so honey probably not beet root cause you might confuse that for blood you need to be able to see the blood so You honey and what. Some gross ingredient from yielded times bull urine. Okay well you. That's the wrong part of the bulb. But not by far was going to say the other thing and i didn't want to because i was like we're a pg show right. Yeah it's not. I mean it's bad so initially you would want to muddle the honey with bayton. He leaves which is a cousin of meant effect and rub that jazz. Just right into the open wound and if they're still not better after that in augment their i'll say treatment course by jamming some crests knows crosses the short leafy herb. That's kind of looked similar to bean sprouts. Okay so far neither. These treatments would seem to do anything. But i don't think they do any more harm. Honey has been known to be like anti microbial antibiotic and people have used on wounds. I feel like the addition of maine is gonna make it stink quite a bit as you are not wrong and then bean sprouts up your nose. That's you're just gonna look like a fool. But i mean you're still alive and actually that your wound should be cleaner. It'll be sealed and you will have had a no salad so really. Everything's coming up yield terrible so well so far so far not terrible yield less tara. Yeah and you're right. Anytime coronial properties of hunters because it can naturally contains a small amount of hydrogen peroxide. Oh okay you need to step things up a little bit. You should put the ash of burnt periwinkle flowers with the honey for treatment of what. Oh sewer this is a new medicine and now what am i carrying yup yup saudi taking your money and your other nonsense. You've added ash of burnt periwinkle flowers. Small blue purple flower. You don't know this one and the asthma. No right too much for you know it might hear that. But that's not what we're going for. Rippling anxiety will definitely cure that. 'cause nobody's gonna wanna be around you know so blindness that to their you forgot three-strikes. That's how medical exams work right now. The crippling zayed he comes way before the blind minutes it comes before everything this was for cataracts or other misty of the is yielding milk. Guy yale the milk bonus bumblebee honey and periwinkle ash might be the common curative. But it wasn't the most preferred perhaps due to expense but we'll never really know what else could yield e people take to cure their misty. I so it was honey. And specifically periwinkle ashes just money and yield the ashes from the fireplace regular. No easy answer. We were looking for here. Was rabbit gallbladder that that was my second choice. Then you wear a mask no nope no you know. I don't know you to your bull. Comment bull gone bladder and hair gallbladder. They just call them goal and deer and elkin and everything that they could find gallbladder in goes and something that goes on your face. Oh great. I love gallbladders on my face. Straight treatment so delightful and they specifically mentioned bowls as being particularly potent. What with being bowls all great. I'm gonna get you buller ladder for your birthday. And of course if you if you can't manage that as the replacement for the honey by the way as the mass stop juicy insides of rabbit. I'd rather know. I want the honey i want. The honey is getting the money on the hunting. Well if you if you can't find the ash on the other hand because periwinkle doesn't grow everywhere bald lists appropriate substitutes in the form of quote. The fatty parts of all river fishes melted in the sun in the quote rancid fish fat aaron rancid rancid fish oil. Yeah that's gonna be good for your eyes yum and just rub that in there. It's gonna make line faster. Right will resolve the problem of going. I well you're not going blind anymore. You're blind their graduation. So yeah. regardless of ingredients the mixture was to be painted onto the face with a feather. Apparently that was was also really big into that. Everything gets painted on the. This is some hippy. Dippy crystal will be s sky beliefs and frankly crystal woobie. What's no matter. How many shade eggs is this guy. I have inside around to actually looked at the source material on this one and so on page x v. i or in the english translation. That's one fifty two for information not given in the list and found that it was to be applied morning noon after dinner and before bed until your is had a healthful dried crust on them no healthful healthful drag. I have never heard of a healthful dry crust. Not what you should be going for it. I think those words belong next to each other. So you've gotta let either rancid fat and ash or or honey and fish and old rabbit crushing crust over your eyes for days until you develop a healthy ice scab other than finally. It's time to rinse your is clean for which he will need a recently pregnant woman. Oh good. I'm glad i always keep one of those in the cupboard You'll you'll need to find yourself a milkmaid unwilling to rub her nips into your eye crust while you ring out her breasts like an old bar towel power milk washing your eyes. That's the green door. Cheyenne that service exists. It's only on thursdays. Yeah he He's specifically lists the milk of a woman as a cure for a great many things. But you gotta just you know conveniently get your i wash with those bubis. Wow if you are a person of means he also suggests rubbing coriander into the boobies and or your eyes beforehand but that data science. That's sounds very stinky. Yeah this guy got his his medical science textbook and has weird can book mixed up one night and took way too many notes in the wrong place. I think he did. Yelp having cured our eyes of venus we must now turn our attention to the maiden whose teats we just juice. Oh okay he uses the word use to oh. He uses the word juice. I mean it's a weird funky spelling of it but yeah there wasn't one hundred percent my joke. Oh my and i thought healthy crusty is was bad. Y'all not yeah all right. So she surely her eyes doth be swollen and to return them to luster. We need what to apply directly to them. Why are swollen from crying. One presumes get okay from boob ringing out related sorrow. This is a woman crying now so the best way to fix that would probably be a not a hand job. It's not that time yet. Chili powder because it's for a woman and we respect them backing yield. Times will give her our best. Read sprinkles no and in fact what we need are the eyes of crowds. I was i mean is of crabs. Chili powder are they the same thing i mean. They are very similar. They both going in old bay direction. I see where you're taking. This medical journey crab yielded crab. Is he'll be grab is like cures like crab i- stocks. Y'all like yours like so one is to catch a live crab. Snip off ice stocks. And then return the crab to the water alive in the books. Dick move as a real dick move especially since crabs are cannibals and they will totally just eat an injured like member of the group. I move then you prepare. It's is a mortar and pestle with honey until the result can be resolved directly into your boob maidens is and then she will no longer cry and be happy about this whole transaction. Good no none of this works. And she's really unhappy. I promise you say so. Mr bald trust me. It totally works every time. I took a book so it must be true. Thanks for listening to interesting true if you like what you heard. thank you. Friends might two sheriffs on the socials or leave us a good review. Wherever you're listening you can always subscribe at patriots. Dot com slash. It where for as little as a dollar a show. You'll get patron story each week. Outtakes on the regular show and more you can contact us. Find out more and see what else we do. It interesting of true dot com takes to the patron supportive listeners. Like you interesting of truth proud supporter of wyoming aids assistance a registered five. Oh one c. Three charity that provides support to wyoming is living with hiv aids. Find out moria. Yo aids dot org and thank you for listening sharing and cooking tasty food garlic onion and goose fat. All go together. Well if you're making a mere plot but why stop lasseube. When mixed and cooked down the concoction will use to alleviate what condition hunger no wet. Nazi vivat garlic onion. Goose that sounds delicious fashion. Or say right like we're we're well on our way you put a potato in there and yeah but but it's alleviating condition it is alleviating conditions. Not gonna help with altos. This i can tell you that in his not wrong head hall. I'll give you that. Close goose fat. That's it's going to help with constipation. Well that is not in your head but yeah there. There was some goose fat up the but stuff that took place. I skipped over most of it. Apparently king henry the something rather if of this time area had like two thousand four bile animas over the course of his life at the sound pleasant A terrible situation something something microbiome but like that's a bore man and that's not what you want. Are you looking for truffles be. I'll give you a half points for that because there was some talk of putting it in the bum. This this goes in your ear. This is for earaches. Didn't i guess that when. I read garlic onions. And goose. Fat has goose down pillow. Support your head while the fat d. h. your ear Plus garlic that makes sense man wanted to be a doctor. I think i'm having a stroke. So is how about dr yield. Dr man the good wow was was drizzled. Liberally into the air. Celtic to cure ear aches. And while this may sound more flavorful than helpful it was a damn sight better than the other options without goose fat you're left to substitute ingredients from other selves. Like drippings from crushed ant eggs that was if he didn't have goose fat. You went and got yourself some ant eggs and then cheesecloth odom. If you don't have goose fat you go get goose bat. You don't go. Let's go find some areas. No no one ever makes that jump. If you have goosebumps darnall go. Buy some goose goosebumps at the next door not I'm gonna go dig backyard for loads of tiny little ant eggs that i'm gonna need use. It's true it's time there's skis everywhere in bird. Skull-crushing rocks are free. No one would substitute that for that. That's ridiculous chelsea. You were to go get some antics and you couldn't find that you could again go with mashed up again liver gunk of a bowl a buck or the aforementioned board. Those are all easier than your aunt juice. All of which was then poured into the ear for the sake of carrying the ear ache and not at all causing a ton of infection. I love just other bodily fluids not my own into my orifice. Oh man just as many as you can get and it doesn't matter from where that's flavor town. At least at least the light soup sounded not terrible right. Like yeah we were. We were doing pretty well with this one until we started pouring it in your whole side. Man is not do that and speaking of head holes if blood runneth from your nose too much because it was after all the yield terrible times on a little bit of blood leading out of you is totally standard. But there's too much when it becomes too much what might be applied to stop the flow of satan's face juice. Oh i know that one. That's probably gonna be. What's that stuff that you helped the blind person. You stuck up their nose. They'll call craze. Called call crass press yes crest. Some nice watercress up his nose. This is bethany Which is just a purple flower. That's from europe. And some honey mashed together. I forgot honey. Always honey i mean at least get a half. Something's gotta glue that health back in there and that's what honey's for honey in my nose. That sounds like some sort of mediaeval torture. It sounds like the world's worst stuff knows doesn't it like that generally sounds on plaza. Waterboard you with honey. No yeah please. Don't honey and pope are- sweet be stuffed up nose should bleeding continue and again need to be staunched. It's best to quote put way board into the ear of your patient That's just common green leafy plant and you put it in the ear. Even though the blood's coming out of the no you take a bunch of those leaves and you're all them up and you stick them in their out rolled up toilet. Paper works so much better than any of us. they had fabric technology. I don't understand what the dilemma here. So what you do with your women during the menzies do that but up the nose because even a tampon works pretty well to alleviate the you have any idea how much it costs to go. building knows. Blood huts all willy nilly. These are poor villagers. That's right that's right. No you go bleed over there. You mr nose bleed. The city budget includes funding for one year. And it's for the gross gross women so bad that's not where is by the way. Listen we didn't butter in the two broke out. She's terrorizing the town at all. If again this time hoke into the ear a whole ear of beer or barley. So he'd be unaware of the nosebleed. Oh my mom. Used to use that technique. When i'd complain about something like armor. She's like camaro charm leaving it out. Yeah yeah exactly. It's the major pain school of of nosebleed prevention. Yeah if somebody's nosebleeds. Third time you just take a big old handful of barley and jam it in their ear and they will stop worrying about their sales. Stopped coming to you for nosebleeds. Yeah exactly that is exactly. They'll never have to deal with their nosebleed again. Bonus fact i looked at the source material on this one. Two and chapter one. This time V. i or fifty five. You can use this on horses. They loved it. Yeah yeah if you if you ever wanna make a horse your friend and have your day go really super good find one in jama bunch of barley in its ear. Only if it has many knows. Aaron come on no unnecessary procedures year. I'm trying to get my medical lights for science ethics. Do yeah those are going to get in the way all lot. I'm afraid shea when dealing with quote next sicknesses okay. Is that like a goiter ya. It's anything between the jaw wine and the collarbone Sore throat swelling. Quincy tonsillitis basically. Just whatever discomforts you win your knuckle region So for this. This suggested you guessed it. A honey based south. Of course this isn't the only ingredient. So what do you mix with the honey for troubles of the neck. When i got to remember this is a south which means it gets painted on the neck. It's not something you drink so right. My answer is not going to be like a nice black t. That you then sip which might actually alleviate your sore throat. Those is going to be something crazy like. Oh let's think here's the funny thing though share your answer is actually a nice black t. If the patient is a woman you all you got that half correct in. Oh in advance. I'll just go ahead and give you that bonus point all right all right. So so what else could it be a swan's trachea dried and mashed in pestel like cures like it's from an animal it's white and it's gross. So you're you're on the right track. Okay it's not no i it it. It does need to be mortar and pestle k. So it's white. I don't know the fat from something gross. You know what. I'm gonna give that to you know. It is a white sauce which is dried and crushed. Oh what is the white sauce. I'm sure you're asking. Yeah is album. Garcia air kiam. I don't know how to pronounce that. A better known as dehydrated dog or hyena crap. Oh yielded dog poop. That used to turn white right. Yeah you know. Sometimes you'll see like all white dog poop. That's because of oxidisation or or oxygen exposure and that's called cost and that's called the austin and that's what we're looking for to cure you of neck at least i don't have to ingest this one. Just gonna leave it there you know what. At least there's that and it's it's on my neck which hopefully doesn't have a gaping wound so yeah hopefully or at least it already has some jammed into it. It's not gonna do any worse now. It's important to note. Though that like any good prescription there are considerations for example per bald. The dog it comes from quote must not abon air. He dropped the thoughts. Otherwise your neck will keep on necking so to translate that you need to find. A white dog. Poo left by a dog who didn't mind chewing his treat next to where he dropped yours. So you have to find it and the dog owners yard lately. Yeah like all you have to go to the to the dog park otherwise known as the medical ingredient farm okay. I didn't realize that any of this any of this. I didn't realize any of the other words. That's the that is the complete and full stop in that sense. I have never encountered an injury. Where i was just like. I should rub some on this. But specifically specifically who that was picked up around where that duggar hyena lives gross about it only use the white stuff and then crush it up first and mix it with some honey. Because apparently they've got plenty of that. Wow yeah but if you're a lady it was honey and tea. I would rather be a lady. No no no. No i take that back. Nope with this one treatment. You're batting one out of one thousand. Yeah don pretty quick. Now yeah so. For our froemel treatment bald recommends quote. Take crop leak. In garlic both equal quantities pound them. Well together take wine and bolic's goal and both equal quantities mixed the leak put this into a brazen vessel let it stand and nine days and the brass vessel ring out through cloth and clear it. Well put into a horn and apply nighttime with a feather. What was he's looking to treat. So you started with a nice casserole. Sure and then we put it through some cheesecloth in have casserole. Jesus you have you have gross uncooked animal. Gross insides and enemies employ and that. That's right just because it was in a brazen vessel doesn't mean it was cooked was never cooked right. No it was fermented for nine days. Great yeah the. The structures are to put it in a thing and then let it sit for nine days. What am i looking to treat. Would you brush that onto. We put soup and might here earlier. So we're gonna put casserole gross casserole juice it's just rubbing their eyes. You are a doctor my friend. Let that correct answer. I pronounce you. Dr yeti over is gonna rub it there is again. I mean why not sounds horrible. Infections of the is. What else would that be for south horrible. So let's rub it in their eyes. Bulbs prescription garnered some recent attention. Though what i can only assume was the request of the manuscript marketing team. The passage was translated by dr christine lee. So the researchers at nottingham university center for biomedical sciences could give this the old college try. They wanted to try it. I gave this a go. No apparently it was used for when you get like an ingrown infected eyelash eyelid last like a sti- or something sti- burnley. This was the common here for the for the sti- and so i'm sure they were just like let's have a make one of these and then test. It was science so they set up three batches and tested them on cultures of three commonly found in hard to treat bacteria. Oh i just gonna. i'm just gonna watch this. This is gonna be a fun words. The first one. I'm pretty sure. Staphylococcus are s and the second one is staphylococcus epidermis and then probably sooner mateusz arjun. No sec- us. I don't know what the third one had on at. Although the third one. But i think the first two the first two. I'd say you got right staphylococcus right. That's common enough. I honestly didn't think you'd get that dermott is like this like some kind of skin based staff affection. I guess i think. I think that's actually the thing that is the common cause for like trench foot. Okay and this is what pseudomonas aerogenosa arizona. So yeah that one. I i have no idea. Yeah i don't know but anyway they applied the salve in three different batches both to synthetic wounds which i take to mean petri dishes and in wounds inflicted on mice and they were infected skipping ahead a bit. The ingredients themselves did nothing of note but when combined described the mixture was starting legally effective. Only about one in a thousand bacteria survived application and for reference. Vaccine my ascend. Today's go to for. Mr essay has approximately the same level of antibacterial activity. What so if it can't keep it left so thousand bacteria survived. That's what ninety nine point nine percent effective pretty good. All things considered. Yeah that's that's not. This is just a this. is you. Find all the stuff in your garbage and then you leave it on the shelf until it becomes garbage. That's next the scientists diluted the south to test its advocacy in concentrations and they were hopeful uncover its mechanism of action and interestingly they found that even win too diluted to kill the bacteria directly the mixture still interfered with bacteria cell cell communication or quorum sensing though so they can't talk to each other so they kind of break down anyway for it stops. Some forming bacteria colonies. Oh yes so. Quorum sensing is critical to biofilm generation. And a biofilm is more or less what it sounds like. It's a film that bacteria generate of biological matter. That makes a bubble around an infection. A bubble for lack of a better term the inside the bubble the bacteria to form march colonies while the film itself is impervious santa microbials. Antibiotics detergents given that something that blocks. The formation of this film could be invaluable in treating antibiotic resistant infections. What so what. You're telling me is that eventually i might be asking for some some crop leak garlic and and more leaks and some gall rotted and applied with a feather. Well i guess if you were to tell me. Hey i'm gonna all this wheat and then i'm gonna toss some bread in it and i'm just gonna leave it in the corner for a month. You wanna drink that you probably be like no no no. I'm gonna go ahead and not do that. He said sipping his beer. Yeah it could be good. Dr freya harrison who led the work in the laboratory nottingham commented that they were surprised when they were hopeful. That quote balls ice hall might show some antibiotic activity because each of the ingredients has been shown by other researchers to have some effect on bacteria in the lab. Copper and bile salts can kill bacteria and garlic family plants. Make him goals at interfere with bacteria's ability to damage infected tissues. But we were absolutely blown away by just how effective the combination of ingredients was in quote. Wow so they don't even entirely know why it works. They just know it does. It sits an ongoing kind of situation. Their work continuing the scientists are hopeful that this could lead to breakthroughs intriguing. Things like methicillin resistant. Streptococcus m. sra and if you wanna know more about the project or check out the show notes. I've actually included a cool video from the project and there's a bunch of links to read. If you're really interested the entire leach book has also linked like you can go through. It is essentially a pdf but yeah they have a little three minute promotional video. That explains like the work that they're still doing and what they found. And so you know what broken clock twice a day and all that he got at least that one right. That's kind of really interesting. that's cool. Yeah it's real cool. It's us real cool. Mercy kills lots of people. So that's like his about one. It could be a really really big breakthrough and something. That's not is it considered a breakthrough if it's thousands of years hundreds of years old as a little over a thousand years old the. I have no idea that's cool. I guess so rediscovered in maternity like you know maybe now we can figure out. What is that like causes these effects because certainly just like gutting something out of an animal and letting it rotten putting it in your eyes a crapshoot but if we can figure out what in that mixture was better more often than it was a bad and we can isolated. That sounds delightful. I think that's really really cool. Yeah so there. You go -gratulations dr yeti nice now certified to rub gross stuff all over your body. You're now a pod. Certified medical professional and with that a quick reminder to our listeners not to take medical advice from podcasts. yeah or schedule. An appointment with me. Don't do that don't do that. Don't show up at the studio. I'm erin and i. And i hope y'all learn how to take care of yourselves this week. I'd like to thank all of our listeners. Our supporters and my delightful co host. Dr shay the yeti yes it is doctor thank you all right and if you want to find out more about the show our social links contact information or other great episodes visit interesting if true dot com. Oh that was good marketing. They should've stuck with that. Final hour of the show. Social links and contact information interesting if to dot com a music for the episode was created by wayne jones and was used with permission the opinions views and nonsense expressed on the show or those of the hosts only are representing other people organizations or life forms. All rights reserved interesting of true twenty twenty.
February 14, 2021: Song of Songs
"In the church calendar today is normally something called transfiguration sunday on the last sunday before lent each year which is also the last sunday after the epiphany the legendary gospel text is always the story of the transfiguration of jesus as told by either matthew mark or luke. Chances are if you've been around the church for a while you have frequently heard the story of the transfiguration on the last sunday before lent. It's a great story. It's an important story. And jesus ministry and imagine that will return to it on this particular sunday next year but of course today is also valentine's day which does not fall on sunday all that often and so. I figured that we would do a valentine's related service because our faith actually has some important things to say about the subject of romantic love. I think that some people only associate valentine's day with the greeting card and floral and boxed chocolate industries kind of assuming that it's a modern invention but in fact even though it's evolved over the years of course. The formal recognition of valentine's day is actually. It's actually quite ancient. Believe it or not. The church has recognized saint valentine's day for over fifteen hundred years now there are some disputes over. The precise bridgeable. Saint valentine and there are actually several roman catholic saints by that name but we know that the historical figure whoever he was lived in the late third century. ad we know that at the end of the fifth century. The pope declared february fourteenth to be saint valentine's day and it has long been associated with romantic love. Valentine's greetings go back at least as far as the middle ages the oldest known. Valentine was a poem written in fourteen fifteen which is now part of the manuscript collection of the british library in london. Americans have been exchanging valentine's day valentine's since the early seventeen hundreds several generations before the declaration of independence and today valentine's day is celebrated in countries around the world. Many of us. I become acquainted with or certainly pretty familiar with valentine's day in school exchanging notes and candy with classmates back when i was a kid. I'm not sure. I don't think my kids still do this. But back then we would take into school and we would decorate the box with a valentine's day theme. We'd get red and paint construction paper. Cutout hart's put coupons and stuff like that all over them now full disclosure. I've never really been all that keen on those kinds of crafts. I never could cut a really good heart to save my life. But i was always in favor of the valentine's day parties in our class the cupcakes and the punch and those little weird tasting heart shaped candies with messages on the candidates like jamaal. Actually the gross up for the chocolate. But anyway you know what i'm talking about now. Who knows how. The pandemic will affect valentine's day this year but last year americans spent over twenty seven billion dollars on this holiday dedicated to let us twenty seven billion dollars generation. Only speaking my generation gen x. Spent the most on valentine's day. Averaging two hundred ninety three dollars boomers spent the least on average. A fifty five dollars was their can make of that. What you will and seventy percent of americans in romantic relationships got their significant others a gift which means that the vast majority of us commemorate this holiday dedicated to love in some way a decidedly commercial holiday. Clearly that began with decidedly religious roots. All of which got me to thinking about the only book of the bible that is dedicated entirely to the subject of romantic love. There is indeed such a book and since our faith ancestors considered it worthy of inclusion in the bible surely valentine's day is the day to read from it known as canticles or the song of songs or the song of solomon the title of this short little book. It's only eight chapters long linguistically speaking means the sublime song or the superlative song it's attributed to king solomon but scholars argue that its literary quality is so sophisticated that it may very well have been written by a professional secular poet. In fact the name of god does not appear anywhere in the book and it may very well have been written originally as a wedding song so perhaps not surprisingly our text. Today we're going to read in just a minute is frequently. Read at weddings. Whitney and i chose it for our wedding so it has long been near and dear to my heart. We're going to read a couple of brief passages one from the second chapter one from the eighth chapter. We'll start with the second chapter now. So listen friends. For the word of god as it is proclaimed by god's servant the author of the song of solomon this is chapter two versus ten to thirteen. My beloved speaks and says to me arise my love my fair one and come away for now. The winter is passed. The rain is over and gone. The flowers appear on the earth. The time of singing has come and the voice of the turtle dove is heard in our land. The fig tree puts forth it's figs and the vines are in blossom they give fourth fragrance. Arise my love my fair one and come away. Says the word of god for the people of god. Thanks be to god over the years. I've presided at a fair number of weddings. As you might imagine. i've. I've done a wedding for a couple. That was just out of high school. I've done a wedding for a couple. That was well into retirement. I've done family weddings and weddings for former youth. Who i had seen. Make the journey through adolescence during my tenure as a youth minister. I've done weddings for church staff members and the adult children of family friends. I've done weddings and lots of different outdoor settings in the sanctuaries and chapels of the churches that i've served and in people's homes. I've done weddings on new year's eve and new year's day at one wedding. I forgot the words of the lord's prayer. Not great that was very early in my career thankfully that was a a lakeside wedding on a windy afternoon in march. So most people couldn't hear what i was saying anyway and i did a wedding one christmas night at the bedside of the mother of the bride. She was just days away from the end of a long battle with cancer and her fiercely. Loving family was determined that she would get to see her. Only child get married. That young couple had their first child. Just a few weeks ago. These weddings have included a tremendous variety of details. Unique to the personality of each couple colors. The flowers the settings the circumstances the histories of the bride and groom the music. The readings some have included a unity. Candle some had included a mixing of different colored sand which is kinda cool. Some have included the wrapping of a couples hands with a stole at one wedding. We had the jumping the broom which is a unique cultural tradition with which had been completely unfamiliar until then but despite all the beautiful diversity of these celebrations there have been. They've been to common denominators. I is a before god. Which is the point of having a pastor. Do the service at all. It is a religious ceremony the introduction to the wedding liturgy in our united methodist hymnal puts it this way christian marriage is proclaimed as a sacred covenant reflecting christ's covenant with church the other common denominator is that at least in our methodist tradition. A wedding celebrates a covenant relationship of mutuality and equality as the hymnal puts it both words and actions consistently reflect the belief that the couple are equal partners in christian marriage. One of the most popular scripture readings for weddings comes from the first letter to the corinthians in the thirteenth chapter paul writes thirteen beautiful verses describing love versus. That are familiar to many. You've probably heard this before. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is not envious or boastful arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way. It is not era or resentful it does not rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth it bears. All things believes all things hopes. All things endures. All things love never ends. But the fact is that. Paul actually had a decidedly ambivalent view of marriage writing earlier in first corinthians in the seventh chapter. He actually refers to marriage as a concession. Never having been married himself paul writes. I wish that all were as i myself am. He's essentially saying it's fine to get married if you have to have romantic companionship. As much as i love. Paul and i do love paul. I have a decidedly more favourable view of romance than heated so that that later very famous thirteenth chapter of first corinthians is actually about god's love for us it's about a gop love divine love which which absolutely should influence the way that we love our significant others but paul never would have expected that passage to become a popular wedding. Text the song of solomon on the other hand is literally about romantic love. We're reading a couple of passes today but there are parts of the song of solomon that are filled with innuendo. And there's no evidence that it was intended to be read any other way now. It's true that jewish scholars over the centuries have aller- derived the song of songs interpreted to be about god's love for israel. It's this allard. Work interpretation that that got included in the bible in fact as late as the second century jewish rabbis. We're not. we're not completely agreed that it should be in the cannon at all and then later christian scholars continued this allegorical interpretation understanding it to be about christ's love for his church but for the original author. The song of solomon was about a great gift that god has given to humanity the gift of romantic love. The song of solomon is formation of the truth that we were created for relationship with each other that love is gift from god and that that healthy romantic love is a of mutuality between two equal partners right. Let's read the second little passage from the eighth chapter near the end of the song. These are verses six and seven. listen again friends. The word of god set me as a seal upon your heart as a seal upon your arm for love is strong as death passion fierce as the grave its flashes are flashes of fire a raging flame. Many waters cannot clinch love. neither can floods drown it if one offered for love. All the wealth of one's house it would be utterly scorned. there's an important detail in the song of solomon. That's easy to miss but we have to recognize it if we're going to read this poem properly we've got to recognize it if we're going to understand the theology that this texas trying to convey written in an era that was decidedly patriarchal. The song of solomon is decidedly counter cultural because it presents a running dialogue between a young man and a young woman probably teenagers by the way who see themselves as equal partners in their relationship. My harpercollins study bible in the introduction to this book love in the song is seen as a communion of souls expressed by tightly interlocking dialogue. It is also a mode of perception for when the lovers look at each other. They see a world of their own. If that does not describe young love a communion of souls a world of their own does now as in much ancient poetry variety of voices in the song of solomon there are parts that reflect the words of a chorus and then there are parts that reflect the words of maidens who are friends of this young woman but the primary dialogue is between a couple who are totally enchanted by their romantic feelings for each other. The young woman begins in the very first chapter by saying let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth for your love is better than wine. You're anointing oils. Fragrant your name is perfume poured out therefore the maidens love. You and. i guess you could read that allegorically but that that sounds pretty straightforward to me and then The poem unfolds a conversation between these two with the chorus and the maidens chiming in from time to time. The young man is actually the speaker in the first versus that we read. Arise my love my fair one and come away. The woman responds to that by saying my beloved is mine and i in his and i'm gonna stop there because there're kids watching this and the window gets pretty vivid after that and then the man responds. How beautiful you are my love. How very beautiful. Your eyes are doves behind your veil and on and on it goes back and forth and then in what is the surest to me of the mutuality of this relationship. The high point of the poem is spoken by this by this strong assertive young woman. She tells her beloved. Set me as a seal upon your heart as a seal upon your arm for love is strong as death passion fierce as the grave. Those are the words of an equal partner in a mutually respectful relationship which is really pretty radical theology for the old testament inspired scripture in which god is giving us a vision for what love should be a vision for what love could be a vision for what love is at its best and while this may be a love home between a couple of teenagers a passionate dialogue between two young people with their entire lives yet to unfold a wedding song to be sung on the threshold of their lives together while all that is indeed. It's original context for all of us. Who's young love has now matured into middle age or beyond for those of us who have walked together through the joys and sorrows the rough patches and the trials the mountain tops and the valleys the glories and the grief that life inevitably brings for those of us who love has endured and sustained us and made life more meaningful than otherwise would have been this image of romantic love at its best spoken by the poet from the perspective of a teenage girl. Almost three thousand years ago is truly the greatest most hopeful testimony to a healthy relationship. That i've ever read love at its best is strong as death. Passion at its best is fierce as the grave. And i am so grateful that our sacred texts give us these enduring words to describe the great gift of god that we celebrate on valentine's day each year so friends however it is that you're celebrating today with whomever you're celebrating today. Whatever you think of this particular holiday that has much deeper and much more theological routes than we often realise. May we all celebrate the vision of love given to us by the only book of the bible dedicated to the subject. Thanks be to. God i'm in.
The Invention of the Self
"This is poetry off the shelf. I am hitting the grades today. The invention of the self before everything changed. I talked to Peter Murphy an English professor at Williams about a very very old palm faithfully from me written in the fifteen thirty s by Thomas Wyatt. I was wearing that. No one would be interested in a conversation about an old poem right now but listening back. I often felt a jolt of recognition in the fifteen hundreds of course epidemics happen every few years there was a viral pneumonia. Going round something. The English called sweating sickness with symptoms very similar to also seeing. Now only you die. Within twelve to twenty four hours of developing Simpson's and there was a bubonic plague which Henry de eighth was so terrified off that whenever he had to travel somewhere he sent surveyors ahead to check on any of the towns on route and if they found sick people they were carried out of there has an into the fields and left to die and you. Dave is often described as the worst king England of a known. He inherited a fortune. The blue all on his fancy lifestyle and stupid wars. He married six times and had two of his wives executed. He was famously paranoid and would turn on his most trusted advisers on a whim locked them into tower and often ended up executing them. One of these trusted advisers was Thomas Wyatt the author of our poem why it worked as an ambassador for the court and had close ties to Amber Lynn. He too by the way ended up imprisoned at tower twice in fact but he survived and each time he went right back to working and writing poems. One of these poems Li flee from me has kept Peter Murphy busy for almost two decades in his book. The long public life of a short private poem. Peter Murphy follows this long long thread from its author Thomas Wyatt to his friend. Who copied the poem in her own manuscript making a few changes to the family that inherited the original and stored it in their home library for centuries to the various printers and scholars throughout the ages? Who fought over version was best all the way to the presence when the poem has become something of a staple of English literature textbooks? So why this poem because to contemporary ears they flee from me is not the easiest if I were to give you a rough summary. A man remembers a time. When he was popular especially with women but nowadays they flee from me it's not the most compelling story of tolls but the story is not the point. It's who's telling it at various points throughout the book. You sort of say that Wyatt kind of as a person as a character Makes his appearance in the palm and that know that that it was a new thing that maybe before that was more of this sort of anonymous unified court voice or something. You can feel it in. Wyatt's poems that they have that texture of introspection like declarations about the nature of his inner life or the nature of inner life. I I like thinking of it as a moment of invention. It's right here and this moment would let's say it's fifteen thirty five but we can't be sure but it someplace right right close to fifteen thirty five you know here. It is It's the invention of the lyric in English That's probably again in some fine grain. Detail I don't think that that's strictly accurate. But it feels that way. That's so interesting. I mean I think. Today at literature is almost synonymous with inner life. Right like we see it as the only way I think almost to get I mean movies. It's much harder to get to the inner life the characters right. I mean you have to do cheesy things. Like voice over. Work Flashback. balloon literature. That's sort of what it does best and so can you take me back to what that was before we started doing that. You know what we're writing then. Yeah I mean it's such an interesting subject and I think that there's a lot of mysteries associated with it. And I think that it's not a kind of continuous and smoothly developing story from you know people inventing language and had to the day of Thomas Wyatt and then to our own But in the period right before why it. When we're talking about shorter poems lear tomes I think it's it's mostly true to say that the accomplishment that people are interested in poetry was largely as a kind of design so that the poems about love for instance that why would know that are in English. You know their poems that would feel to us to be highly artificial. They have stanza forms. That mean that they repeat themselves a lot and you can feel that some of the satisfaction of making such an object is actually. Just do it like here. I made this complex stands a form and look all the words appeared. Alright spots And I I don't think of that as a low form of entertainment. I think that there's a lot of of expressive objects that have that quality that. Wow that's a neat thing Edgar something. Wow that's well done I mean but it's you know I think that that's exactly right and I think that there must be you know what amounts to a satisfaction in the kind of controlling or designing of of the process of thought that is in such an artificial poem. The clearly people liked. I think it feels quite foreign to us. Were much more used to a more nuanced and flowing An even inconsistent picture of inner life. And so I with why we have a few poems where what feels like the picture of inner life has this kind of dramatic and compelling texture and I it's just so noticeable especially if you're sitting reading a lot of poetry from the period it's just so noticeable kitchen. Could you read the poem and and I was thinking because you know i? I can't assume that everyone has Sort of a fluency in sixteenth century. English could you maybe take standby stanza and slick paraphrase may be as we go along sure absolutely? So here's the firsthand. They flee from me that sometime did me seek with naked foot stocking in my chamber. I've seen them gentle team and meet. That now are wild and do not remember that sometime. They put themselves in danger to take bread at my hand and now they range busily seeking with continual change so I think that some of the one of the things that people like and this poem is just that magnetic first line. They flee from me. That sometime did me seek now. It's old English Has a little bit of a Foreign Air. But we can understand that line And then the the evocative air of the poem the sort of summoning of stuff with naked foot stocking in my chamber. So who are they? Those first two lines That's the part that caught me and I think it's that that that part catches a lot of people and sometimes they put themselves in danger to take bread at my hand and now they range. Busily seeking was a continual change. That's the substance of the first answer is about change the second thanked before Cheon It Hath Been Otherwise Twenty Times better but once in special in thin array after a pleasant guys when her loose gown from her shoulders did fall and she me caught in her arms long and small and there with all sweetly did me kissing softly said Dear Heart. How like you this so you have this. I stands about these beings that now are gone. And then the thing that's gone now appears to be this really beautiful intimate moment and I think you know especially if you're reading poetry from this period this stanza is just you know what I wanna say. I might be wrong in some very detailed way. But in a general way what I want to say is. There's nothing else even remotely like this people love to retail this stanza. They loved to just talk about and think about the the sort of intimate energy that suddenly appears in the Stanza Which that kind of intimate energy is just so unusual in this period. You know we've gotten so used to it. Yeah exactly yeah. It's hard for me to to hear what you hear because yeah for me it is. It is the thing that we still do right. Like we recollect something. And then we will hint at some details to make a really visual for the one who's reading her arms long and small and that is so common to us that. What is the the newest thing about this? Then you know I think that It's the it's that it feels like an actual recall like this is a thing that happened and a lot of poetry in the in the period. I'm not sure people would have been very interested in doing that. That is an actual recall. Might you might even think about is the flaw. It reduces the sort of designed and performed live aspect of short poem about feelings. And you can imagine someone thinking you know these are actual feelings. That's the that's not what we're talking about you know we're we're we're talking about. As you said the Faberge egg I want to. I want something more beautiful and more abstract in effect. And even if you're reading Wyatt's poem they flee from me. This poem is different So here's the last ends. It was no dream. I lay broad waking but all is turned through my gentleness into a strange fashion of forsaking. I have leave to go of her goodness and she also use newfangled names but since that I so kindly served I would fain know what she had deserved. I'm not sure you would guess that the Palms GonNa turn in this bitter direct and I think that bitterness unfortunately is a really common quality in you know the what is loosely described as love poetry in this period. There are all these conventions about how men get to complain about women not paying attention to them so I think that readers in the period are people encountering this poem in the period would have this complaint about her behavior There's something they would have read a thousand times you know. The lover's complaint is often a title for poems. That type in this period. And yet you know in this stanza. Also if it's not it's not a very decorative complaint It seems unhappily genuine and the the bitterness is part of that right so he gets into this stanza. And there's just this low. That's the place where I think that people would have felt the texture of self to be just a little bit too much but since that I so kindly observed I would fain know what she had deserved especially that sort of dead rhythm in the the last line. I would fain know what she had deserved. Not Very musical That's I think one of the things that gives it. Its sort of unhappy feel of genuineness like he just wrote out those words because he was so angry he he didn't even have time to institute is I am BIC pentameter. That's true like it has the sort of Obstinate field to it. Almost right like he's sort of leaning on every word would say no what she had deserved. Okay that's I think that's exactly right. That's what I call the kind of dead rhythm of it and I think what's happening in that line is this it's just an insistence on a feeling that feels genuine enough to be a little uncomfortable. Like you know. Conversation at a cocktail party of someone says something all of a sudden. You're like well look at that. And they need to go get a glass of wine or you know you find a way to slide out and so the poem as it appears in the very closely related manuscript it's manuscript that's being maintained by Wyatt's friend. They change that line and disfigure if they changed that line they knew Thomas Wyatt. They had sympathy with his problems. They changed that line then. Something's happening in that line. It clearly made people uncomfortable. Yeah I mean I was a little uncomfortable with it. Now you know like however many centuries five you know five hundred years later. I thought Oh you know doing that. Typical Nice guy thing like well. I was being kind. She's wanting to you know exactly the bit ask. That shows up bitter. Yeah I think of that is That's a technical innovation I think on Wyatt's part He's making the palm respond to feeling in a way that people would not have been used to. Can you tell me a little bit when you look at that page today or even the entire book that this page is a part of what what sort of interesting. Scribbles and and drawings appear in the margins of the poems There's this math on the left hand side which is Subversion of Algebra. I had the great fun of getting to read Seventeenth Century Algebra. Textbooks to figure out the you know the notation and took a little bit of work to even figure out what's written there but again what what a pleasure to read a century work of mathematics and figure out that that squiggle actually means X. squared and so on. Yeah but the math is a sign that the person doing the math didn't care about the poem and in the rest of the manuscript. This is much more obvious thereon. Other pages straight lines drawn through each of the lines of the poem and then the pages just covered with other kinds of writing so the person structure basically simply struck through so then sometimes pages are covered in prose. Sometimes there's geometry problems so that there are triangles that are drawn over poems and the idea that a person's sitting with you know a book that we now consider a priceless treasure. Yeah in the reasons that it's a priceless treasure is that there's a poem written on the page. There's person sitting there with this book who actually can't see the poem right so it's exactly the opposite of us. We look at that page. And it's like oh was their math on the left hand side. I'm sorry I didn't see it. I was reading the poem And that seemed to me to be. It's just a really important part of the life of this poem that there are people and You know my thought is that. There's a resonance between and the contemporary world were a lot of people wouldn't be interested in that poem and I tried to tell that story. Sympathetically that is there's lots of reasons why you wouldn't be interested in that palm and it doesn't make you a bad human being and it doesn't mean that you're not sympathetic with other humans or that you don't have a nuanced inner life yourself or that you're not interested in the inner life of others that just means you're not interested in that poem And so you know it's like it's a healthy tonic. That you can drink while you think about the history of this poem because there's always this temptation to regard it as some kind of mystified magical and holy relic that and it really is not that it's a it's a poem written by a person in fifteen thirty right right. Yeah you know if you try to write about these people who scribbled in the margin sympathetically. Well you've succeeded because I really. Yes such warm feelings for them. You know at this John Harrington I mean they're all called John called John Harrington yes generated call this guy. Mp You know because he was a member of parliament. Yeah what what I love. So much about him is that he seems like the antithesis of a poet sort of insensibility He likes math. He likes While he works in government he sort of interested in science and it's very practical and so he uses it sort of to conduct his business and to also just write down notes. Sort of like a to do list or something you know and Yeah one of the things. What was it again? That that he wrote something like I helped my friend's son I'm constipated just like sort of A. You know whatever that that was also sort of like you say an inner life you know. There's many many people who wrote things into this book after Thomas Wyatt Road in it but John Harrington who's the person who wrote the math he wrote really a lot into this book was a judge he was a magistrate. And there's addresses to juries are sketched out in this book and what I ended up thinking about as I meditated on Harrington's lack of interest in the poems his diary and his daily is that in this really Broadway there's a generic resemblance between his diary and the poem. That is somehow the writing out of the things that happened to him. Some of them very intimate. You know not very appealing constipation is not you know. Generally a great subject for lyric poem. But that there's a resemblance between his urge to write out the stuff about himself. Just the these are things that happened to me There is a resemblance between that and the work of lyric poetry. Which is somehow the writing out of an account of inner life. makes us feel that it's more manageable or that it is more. Maybe it makes it more thoroughly a thing of the past if that's what we want or it makes it more understandable and so that relationship between writing and what amounts to self understanding or just the management of everyday life is not entirely different from Thomas. Wyatt's use of that book. It's just really different from Thomas. Wise Use of that book. Yeah I mean that's a gorgeous way of looking at it and it really Seems to be exemplified also in the way that the MP Or that the judge John Harrington His son used that book he was just sort of learn how to Rights right like he was a little kid and had a tutor and he had you know do his alphabet and stuff and and what is so lovely as how you describe this kid was maybe not you know the most interested in school and that he sort of would draw these monsters enlarging exactly. I. I find that part like you. I find that part. Really beautiful actually and You know in my general feeling. That poems are things that people right because they have reasons for writing them by Thomas. It can be in some ways about his job as an ambassador. Desperate hope to stay alive and tutoring England And that again. There's this kind of generic resemblance between that and little We'll Harrington there is finally Harrington who's not called John Harrington you know this little wheel Harrington making drawing this little monster in the manuscript you know. There's a kind of habit of mine where we think. Well you know. It's a kid and he's just drying a monster but again it's that act of sort of getting something out of your head and onto the paper and then you look at it and it's done something for you. Something that was inside. Your head is now out there on this piece then so again. It seems like it's a good companion further poems in that book. It's it's you know it's it's the same kind of newborn of the spirit a a now that the manuscript lives at the British library which bought it at the end of the nineteenth century You know now it's sort of lives it's museum of Fides existence right like it. It can no longer be Doodle let's say I mean. Of course it's great because now it's public and Vancouver. The right accreditations can go and consulted and stuff night books about it. That's cool but But it also yeah in in a way it's now dead and I think I'm really happy that that wasn't destroyed in the course of its long centuries and I'm really happy that will Harrington drew a monster instead of making paper airplanes with the with the page that they flee from me was written on and so on so I'm happy that it was preserved. I'm happy that I can see it. And my ability to see it is entirely dependent upon the kind of mummification. That happens to that book in the British Library But at the same time The it's it's fun and interesting to think of people using that manuscript as a legitimate human activity you know that they're interested in that book that adding things to it was their way participating in the kind of general life of this book. That had all these interesting things in it. So you know. There's the two sides to it gets saved for us so that I can call what the British library did to the sort of vaguely derogatory term. Mummification so you know I'm entirely. I really understand that irony but it does seem like it that it's important to register it you know. I went to the British library. I went there several times to look at this book. Which is neat experience? One time I went I had done all the things I was supposed to. I'd sent email beforehand presented my credentials and I had a little card and so long but on this day which is the last time I looked at it. They somehow the library. Just I just didn't seem legitimate enough to them and I speak to another person who's often indifferent room and this person I was saying what I was doing. And and this person actually said looking at me I guess Europe professor she said and I thought wow all right well you know in some ways. I'm happy that somehow I could be misidentified as something more interesting glamorous than an English professor but at the same time what is it about me that makes me seem like a person who shouldn't be allowed to look at this You Know Ancient Manuscript. They did eventually let me do it but they made me wait like three hours just to make sure God. Wow Yeah I mean that's also really interesting about your book is that you sort of You show what it took for someone to gain access to that book you know in like in the Eighteenth Century You write about Percy who was the self-made scholar This kind of careerist guy. Who's great at introducing himself at an seeming very important and sort of making that a self fulfilling prophecy and He's he's the person who actually finds I mean we're we're skipping over a whole lot of history here but you know we'll which is going to have to because of the time you know But he's the first one to sort of reunite the idea of the poem sort of the original manuscript of it right that he marks up the book with this. Little Code to basically indicate okay. This is a manuscript that it comes from. This is the page in the original manuscripts that it comes through. And so you right. At that point that Percy decided to write in the book writer Dan who knows like write a paper or something you know. Because he couldn't he didn't have the sense of institutions that would sort of provide continuous security that his paper with his findings would actually stay with the book. You know so. He thought okay. Let's just write in the book and what I what I was wondering about. What your senses about that you know. Now we've we sort of. The pendulum has swung in the completed action right. Like we were so reliant on our institutions and and even just like the way that we digitize stuff. It seems like we're so confident that these digital copies that they're going to be around you know or that we've always have the capacity to read them to feel like we do too much of that we're risking our heritage in a way. Well you know there'd be other people be smarter about that but my instinct is yes certainly and you know there's the I'm not the only person who has noticed things like you know the the wonderful interest that's available for instance in the letters of people who lived in the past so where that information going to be you know we'll that beyond hand it's all an email now actually it's taxed or no. I don't know what it's in. It's in a tweet that disappeared so One of the I think really. I don't know a beautiful inside available through the history of this manuscript this book. Sort of calmly. It's it's a stack of paper that survives for five hundred years and and it just does that survives the you know the unbelievable and bitter carnage of the Tudor world at survives. You know it's owner getting his head cut off That is Thomas. Wyatt's son got his head cut off in the rebellion against Queen. Mary and then it just wanders around at ends up in a Family Library. We might think of a family library as a place. That's you know I Dunno through unofficial dangerous but at that that turns out to be incredibly secure location for it even though people are using it for all kinds of other things And so it just makes its way in one way or another and so there's something about the survival of of a physical object in the story about the poem that I find really just kind of great that it's it because it was an object that means it could have gotten lost in it's because it was an object that it didn't get lost and so there's something really beautiful about that story that would just paper and yet the stack of papers. You can go see it today. If you have the right credentials they believe Sawyer. Have you looked professorial enough? Yeah you write somewhere That the study of literature for you has always been connected to the study of everything and I really love. I mean it's so true about your book and and you know it made me think about you. Know those kinds of books that are like the history of sand or you know or something like that right or the history of paper or whatever and then of course it's not just the history of sand. It's the history about human beings you know just sort of the excuse you know Why do you prefer to do it through poems? Well I think for one thing. I think that when I began this book which is in the year. Two Thousand Right. It's a really long time ago actually from a personal view. I think that there was actually a surge of the kind of books that you mention and I really liked those books. You know I was really interested in them and so I I. I think that that feels like a kind of accurate observation about in some ways the source of the shape of the idea that there's a role I'm back. The French literary critic has this neat moment at the beginning of a book called said where he talks about a certain Buddhist practice of conjuring a landscape out of the skin of a bean And it feels a little bit like that you take little bean and you conjure the whole world out of it but I think that doing such a project with a poem is some of the satisfaction of it is that the the palm is about human being and even this palms Britain so long ago the some of the interest of this palm is that it was written by Thomas Wyatt who was Cordier in the Court of Henry the eighth than and Berlin got her head chopped off and the story of amber. Lynn is a bizarre and interesting and terrifying one. And so it's just the that. Tell a kind of extended story about this aspect of English speaking culture using poem. It just allows you to talk about the the pains and pleasures of being a person at every moment at in essence and and so You know as I was working on it you know my feeling was like who wouldn't want to write a book like this. I mean it's just like it's just like the perfect thing because the for one thing. Anything could be absorbed into it. You know so so for for almost twenty years worth everything I thought was. I would think you can just go you know. Can this go in in the bus? Oh here's something about inc. Well maybe I should read the thing about INC and the lives of people are so interesting and the attempt to imagine the intimate texture of lives of people who lived long ago with both interesting and I think really good for us And and in the record to to think about the long history of people trying to assemble their inner life. Does that daily struggle? You know that we have you wake up and you think wow what a great day. I'm doing some great today by afternoon. It's like Gosh. What a terrible day and you know I really feel I've lost control on the threat of my life has just now frayed and then the next day you're feeling good again the to be able to talk about that texture over this long period. It just was so rewarding it was so rewarding and so interesting that when I finish this project I was sad I mean I know there is like Gosh restores more history. Maybe there is there a sentry. I forgot about that I could you know. Just go backwards and think about Peter. Murphy is the author of long public life of short private poem reading and Remembering Thomas Wyatt before that he wrote a book about the tension between poetry is art or livelihood. Focus on the romantic poets Abacus titled Poetry as an occupation and an art in Britain. Seventeen sixty eighteen thirty. He's a professor at the English Department of Williams College in Williamstown Massachusetts and got his education at John Hopkins and Yale. He's currently at work on a book about storytelling. But he warned me that it could be another twenty years you can find. They flee from me and more poems by Thomas Wyatt on the Poetry Foundation website. The music in this episode is by Todd sicker. Foos I'm Helen. Illegal routes and this was poetry off the shelf. I hope you're still going strong. Thank you for listening.
The writer and the Prince
"This is an ABC podcast in the middle of our life's journey. I found myself in a DOC would with direct way was lost. That's the beginning of Dante's great epic poem the Divine Comedy Dante was writing in the fourteenth century. Free but his sense of being lost in. Life's journey echoes the experience of my guest today. Hilary mcphee. Hillary has had a distinguished. Career is a writer editor and publisher along with her late friend. Diana griddle she founded mcphee dribble which published writers who were at the time unknown including including Helen Ghana and Tim Winton then a few years ago. When Hillary was in her mid sixty s with grownup children and a long marriage to an interesting man when things started to unravel at harm out of the blue she received a curious job offer from prince in Jordan in in saying yes to that Adventure Hillary also ended up saying yes to living alone in a village in Tuscany which was not at all how she expected expected it to be Hillary's? New Memoir is called other people's houses. Hi Hillary welcome to conversations. When did he first traveled awful to the Middle East? Hillary actually million years ago. When I was first married and I went on a cargo boat? Those were the days when you hop goes into a no other passengers. What was on your boat was taking cars and live sheep to the Middle East? When the Middle Eastern countries were quite small Kuwait? Wait was tiny. I do remember very vividly. Arriving in Kuwait we hard care which had a record player in the car with forty fives being as as we bounced along and these very bumpy streets incredibly hot if you're bumping along the Cadillac Cadillac's through the days my husband was able to go right is into the desert. But because I was a woman was expected to stay on the boat with the captain's wife and that was a irritating but we did get ashore in the major ports well A few lifetimes after being on on that boat to you were living in Melbourne and were contacted by a woman. You'd last saying as a teenager. How would hugh to Nonni top? I had no idea who this one more she gave me her name and waiting for me to recognize it and I didn't but then when I met her arrange to meet her in mar she said we've been together. I'd had a year at college high school. And that's when we met and we'd been in the same hockey team. What was the name of your hockey hockey team was the caller battles was a fabulous man for Coakley team and soon as I saw her sitting in mirrors are recognized and she started telling me about her laugh which had been spent the last? I think the last ten or fifteen years in the Middle East should be moving for Princeton in a man and we he had a strange kind of conversation swap notes about husbands and children all the things that have happened to us in that probably forty years since I'd seen her before but She said the rather mysterious was. You may get to hear something from the pelous. Thought what and she said. Mysteriously I can't tell you more but Jamais here's something. Did it feel like she was making you a job offer. No she was she wasn't she definitely wasn't made me a job off because she was so definite about the offer coming from her boss. who was? She said called City Hassan. You may hear from city Hassan's manager or someone in the palace may get in touch. It was very mysterious. Something that does does not happen to you if you live in Fitzroy and just wondering along one day and you have this strange thing so I forgot Abacha's and life went on for me later. No this woman know that I was. I was going to be in London just in case and then the next phone call was from someone in London from the Office of the of his role harnessing in Jordan and they were just as mysterious to and did what what did they say just just said we would like to suggest that you come to a man and talk about a project. The writing project was how it was described. Describe what's a about a man or or Jordan I mean what about the modern motorcycle by this time When when they started bringing ringing me in London I went to the British library? Looked up because I knew very little and I knew if I if I did manage to get too much and I thought Oh great on my way her mall. Poppy poppy. And let's see what this is all about so I looked them up in the British Library and discovered that I knew a bit more about this row family than I realized because King in Hussein of Jordan was a very famous character he had four wives. He was very glamorous. He flew airplanes and he was a playboy and western waist magazines adored him and adored his wives and there were always very beautiful and always very photographed. So I had to go on and I looked at up in the British Library and discovered discovered that the big story was he had died a few years before and the succession was fought by. Everyone needs to be going to his younger brother. Prince her son and her son is of course. The city has some that have been told about back in moment but on these bid King Hussein gave the succession to his son and his son is now the prison king and of course the US to be in a shattering and the press. Were absolutely a God with this drama. They in the British library. There are all kinds of magazine articles about and Song but all of them said they admired Prince Hassan very much. Because he'd given no interviews. He maintained a very dignified pod silence and other people gossip tobacco so I thought this was rather imprison. Look this up so I knew a bit about this and then started checking ask the the state of Jordan and what how big it wasn't saw. How big is it's ninety about the size of Tasmania not very big at all? But there are lots of people there and refugees refugees. Pour in every time there's a war and during the Iraq war there were seven hundred fifty thousand Iraqis poured in now Syrians of course. And it's just been the. The Palestinians have been pouring in across the Border Cincinnati in forty eight. So it's a it's a country that manages refugees and has a royal family that was installed when Transjordan was created by Churchill. Way Back so it's a an odd little place with odd boundaries but bounded by orrock bounded by Syria bound by Saudi Arabia bounded by Israel. So it's a country that I've been started finding quite interesting so there you are in a the British library reading up about this royal family finding out details about this country the size of Tasmania right in the heart of the Middle East. What happened next? Twenty to get the teak is I kept bringing me saying the tickets are on their way I was. I was about to go home and KIP getting messages to say that the tickets will be there. The air tickets never arrived finally got so crabby. There's I'll lift London without the tickets and without telling them where I was going. But somehow they found the in Vienna so as far as Vienna and the tickets arrived got a phone call in the middle of the night from the days of the hotel we were in saying and there's an email from Jordan. They read it to me saying if you present yourself to the Royal Jordanian Airways they will give you first class tickets to a month so down. I went in the morning and got the tickets off. I win this is just before Christmas in two thousand five. Did you have any idea what to expect tiller. Nobody no but I was determined to go and find out by the stage. I was thoroughly tantalised and I'd read lots of stuff in the British library. Mas was sticking out on stalks so I really wanted go but I was very pissed off with the way the whole thing was taking forever. How were you treated at the airport? What was the experience of flying? I caused the PORTA was ushered should into something called Crown class which I'd never been anything called Crown Class Before C. R. O. W. N. E. and it was very pot with blue rather smoke filled because everybody smokes smoke fooled blue couches with cushions offered all kinds of teas and very little bits pits to eat and saw. Did you need a special passport or visa. Nobody's getting all I was being brought in crime. Class means that you're brought in a spouse like diplomats formats. It just means that you brought in under the ages of the crown and your guest of the Royal Household. That's what technically main. So you know which is against Berol household and was driven a car to the hotel where I was searched because they just had the first Suicide bombing in Jordan. I need a few weeks before and everybody was utterly shattered of course so I was searched every time I went in. It was a very nervous place but I was in. Ah Brow the Porsche Hotel with a very large suite much bigger than my house. It was enormous spa belt and all that stuff and I was met there by charming young woman who was the research assistant of Princess on so I felt rather relieve when I met her. She was lovely and she was going to pick me up in the afternoon and take hike me and she couldn't answer any questions she said. Leave it you. You'll find out more when you get a winston had a SPA bath. I think certainly a race and was picked up in the afternoon afternoon when I was taken off to the pels taken off to the palace who was there to meet you. We were taken to a guest house in the grounds which is a very beautiful little building with was was winter it was winter. December was very very cold so there were open fires burning and lovely gleaming. Parquet floors with medicine was lovely was absolutely absolutely beautiful and first of all. I was met by the princes daughter. Princess Padilla who I think was checking me up to make sure I was suitable to introduce her to her family then her mother breezed in. who was gorgeous marvelous Pakistani city? He Sabat I've got used to calling she. She said now you must ask my husband anything you like he has to do this. Bulky must do it clearly shea wanted the story and I I suspect he didn't. What impression did he I make? He sidled into the room after between his wife was still there and he was sir of Quality Short Man Gray head brace suit very dignified but very depressed could tell he was miserable. He walked in miserable fashion. Sean just stood there rather miserably and his wife introduced him to me and she then was the way saying ask him anything you like off. She wins and and off the doors and wind just leaving me and prince her son and we had a perfectly fun conversation. But he didn't ask me any questions at all about me Just popped up as person that was going to help him with a book could he talk to you about what sort of book him. I want you to work work with him on the conversation with with his wife and daughter were about at autobiography and I wanting to help from me to help him write his autobiography. which is a very peculiar? Quest is that is what our con- tried hard to quiz him about just to get a sense of how prepared he was to to spill the beans to spill some beans. I mean I didn't particularly want to go into all the the shock horror stuff like a women's magazine had already done in London. been because I'd already said he maintained dignified silence in the face of the catastrophe. Orphee as it was to him and he wasn't appointment heating become king that part of the story I want the story of his being Crown Prince. There he'd been crown prince for thirty years he been when he was very young man. Nothing eight nothing can just going up to Oxford. He was educated in England. The war broke out and he was whisked terms so his brother could be in charge of the army and the city has saw good start doing the work of a crown prince running the affairs at home. teed been certainly as as crown prince in charge of building very important institutions in Jordan they have very interesting educational institutions and women. Women have been educated for a long time things like that. I knew enough of the basics to well not making a complete fool of myself basically but to ask the questions that would tease us. What kind of book do you think he was making a view? Hillary no idea. Obviously I would have been vetted there was nowhere. I was just going to be flown in because someone in London sent me some tickets. I was going to be visited and I would have been visiting probably out of camera. I don't know how these things work but he didn't ask me any questions. He named. Drop too bitch he said Gareth Evans comes. Sometimes and pizza singer comes here sometimes. They were men admit. He said he'd been to Australia on his honeymoon. which was in the early seventies during Whitlam's era and he'd driven ridden ridden? He was a horseman a very very good Polo player. I knew this and he'd ridden horses around the ten and he said they're very frisky police horses but managed. He was bit boastful about physical stuff. So we had that kind of conversation but no questions of me. How did you and Princess Onfan Gills in a car together the Nicholas? I was sent away after this first meeting with one hundred pages to read so beca went to the hotel with one hundred pages and how rid them overnight and then return the next day with my opinion of them and that opinion was delivered in his very former office where he looked like a prime minister rather than a king. I was relieved to see because prime minister's fairly familiar things but I didn't know about kings and princes at all I didn't know thing and it wasn't wearing a crown he wasn't he wasn't wearing a crown he was either a business suit. He had a month-long pain line and a flag behind his desk. Lots of photos and we just sat at a very informal of coffee table and so he wanted to know what I'd made of. I think he called it his dizzy or his wife called his one of them did he is which meant the know how it would have been called his video. He's going off in the morning to record his D. So the what I had were the transcripts of interviews that someone had done in the past. I never even really discovered several people. have been involved in transcribing things. So they weren't very good but they had some fabulous materials so when I return the next morning outside the bits I'm really interested in our about your childhood about the crowd being Crown Prince about the wars about how you manage to build various things in Jordan and I was very enthusiastic because indeed. I was very much wanting wanting to do this project providing the backup was going to be there and that was swap was not discussed at that meeting but was vaguely discussed when I went and had lunch. which was a happy end up in the car together from this point house after lunch? I was asked if I'd like tour and of course I jumped at it and because it was clear I was going to be showing the places that were most important to princess on and off. He went off to get warm coats and I was handed a burger to input on later and we hopped into a at the front of the of the Family Palace which was a very beautiful house had pulled up this enormous motorcade with a huge. Didn't know the names of these cars but enormous army me jeep vast with guns on the back and Prince Zomba's driving it and he said to me hop up next to him so that he could show me the places as as we drove through the streets and you drive off at the front of the motorcade he. There were several cars behind but as we drove out of the palace many many more. AH THEY DO motorcades in Jordan. All the time and very long motorcade so there were lots of cars jeeps pulling up with with guns so off winch bench and I could hardly believe this is happening. But it was thrilling and princess on kept driving into he said I hate these motorcades. He said to me I hate them but they insist they being the king prison king though insist I have them so he kept sucking up roads at the motorcade. Couldn't go in to show me bits where there were stairs going up where his mother used to come down to buy bread from the baker and we waited talk up. The motorcade found that cemented we appeared in into streets. Were widened wide enough for these vehicles to go down. What stories did he tell you? Childhood stories as we went along which were about where he was born. His mother had a midwife. The hostile hospital hadn't been built by the so he he had interesting interesting stuff to say about midwives he said the midwife came to my mother and they were friends. And she. You know stuff really made me prog- up my ears. And he showed showed me. The coffee shop is to go to as a child places where people brought things and people knocked on the window of the car as we were going up these neurons speech and wave waved at him and he would wander on the window press a button. Donna would go and he would know the man name and it was he was giving me a glimpse of a man who was very at ease in small amount and the pop in was old downtown. which is a small part? The rest of a man is now enormous with hideous card of buildings on shopping centers going out to miles so wanting just to say hello or they make. He's you them and ask them how their families word would all of this. They obviously loved him so he was giving me a a tour of people loving him as well which was very harbouring and splendid. What about that tradition of petitioning? Not Sharing that happens in in parts of the Middle East where you go to the powerful posted in alleys out of being a child at school in the man prince he was at the local school school. The man before he was sent off poor thing to harrow. But when he was a little boy he'd be He'd have his school bag stuffed with petitions from people wanting them to go back to his family. And things like you know. My child can't get the education he wants. All we've had an accident or someone's being killed and we need money or something so the petitions were a problem and remain a problem. The that is how that will tends to work way. Did you end up on that day. The only thing driven around on we went to see his his sportscenter. The News Sports Center in the MOM which indeed is hugely in Brazil where to milestone astonishment said. I'm not going to play a game of squash. And he his he was a there was some kind of festival of young people on at the sports center. There's been bussed in from all over the Middle East to play squash and princess and the rugs and announces that he's going to play a game of squash and and the base person presumably was chosen to play him at Scorpion indeed. He's a brilliant squash player and his the sports master kept saying to me. He's not only a brilliant squash wash player. He's got a black belt in judo and he's this amazing Polo player. And all of those things so sport is very big factor so I said there was introduced as to his cardiologist and his sports center manager and his publicist and then we all bundled into the car and went down to have coffee in a in an old friends. Place in a man. Nie Nie Way He'd been born child so busy mazing for me at Amazing Day. I was stunned. I couldn't understand most most of the conversations of course but every now and then they translate something fabulous me and I feel for it. Landon sinker what were you fooling for. I was falling for the sense that there was a really terrific story that needed to be told he hadn't told us also. I was fascinated by the city the way the when he was growing the fact that of course the war was just over the border and how they were coping and we talked about those things in I know Berry rushed terms terms but I was. I was completely smitten by this project. So beca go to the hotel and start packing and telling my family emailing families are must stewart then the phone rings and the receptionist was very very excited. Voice said I WANNA put through princess on from the palace so he came onto the lion and said had I had a good day and Mazda interested in proceeding with this project so I said yes indeed. I am and I will come back in a pool and we'll start our workout how to do it when I'm in Australia. So that disease so I flew back to Australia feeling and this was the most marvelous thing not having worked up money or any sort of resources for the project but yes to the adventures to the thing killary as this. This new exciting adventure is opening up for you in Jordan. What was happening with your life back home in Australia? My Love Pick Hamill starter. Absolutely lutely fallen in a heap are came back from the Jordan Seduction and husband of twenty years announced that he wants to keep moving. He'd been in America Rausing Book and he wants to so I was completely shattered by this moving. What is what is that going back to America? I knew he was to finish working. But that he he he wanted to end the marriage and that was a gobsmack events. But I didn't want to argue about his Decided if he was prepared to say something like that after longtime together. I wasn't prepared to argue and I was just going to keep moving basically and because this project jabeen offered me in Jordan I and I was going to go back there in April Then texted my friends and said this is what we're going to do is splitting up and I'm going back to Jordan. You want to talk to you. The tells of that they did. But I didn't want to talk about and nobody thought I was. Pleased about it spurs. I was not wanting wanting to confide I had grown up children. I had a life. That was You know we we've been through a hell of a lot together and it felt like really catastrophic way to Indus so dealing with that kind of catastrophe was what I went back to Jordan with thinking. This is a fabulous project. I know how to make it happen. I'd quoted them on on the job. A modest carnival stolen amount of money and went back to Jordan and Started working on the book. And once you begin working on the Balkan in having these these lengthy conversations with prince has sand well how did you address him like. Was it a former kind of conversation you have to has it. It was formal enough in this. He would come to a special place where we would talk. which was a pavilion where we worked and we were the only the the other Australian? I the woman the been at school with playing hockey with. We're in this little pavilion. Wouldn't have said that at the call at that. Lowes assange on your sitting room. She was fabulous. She was a real ozzy working in the Middle East. There are quite a few of these incredible creatures so you and her and the prince would be there depressing come when he could fit in an interview that became the problem. He was very much in demand he was because the war was on. Those people wanted to talk to him. All kinds of people would come through a man wanting an appointment with Prince Assad and he would be invited to gun talk here there and everywhere so our bridgeview stations tended to be cancelled. Always get maybe twice a week. Maybe we'd have an hour and then suddenly he'd be called away It became quite frustrating. The interviews became more and more interesting to me and I could see the shape of the book happening it was ah very westernized environment in a way and they were immensely friendly and pleased to have me. I think and we got on very well and very funny. They're amusing people. We had lots of laughs and they were by this stage quite comfortable with me. I was with them. This was a new experience for you. Although Hillary having as your boss a member of the Royal Family Prince did that make things out in any way where we will use trailing enough just for it not to even really feature a look there courtesies involved obviously and and you stand when the prince comes into the room there those kinds of things and he is is almost invariably accompanied by someone carrying things carrying his papers or carrying his files or carrying his what he fancies to drink in the way have coffee or tea or whatever. Could you tell people what you were doing that. No that was open so most irritating thing the whole exercise this hockey playing. I kept saying you cannot talk about this. So it's not I don't know why not I don't know why it was ridiculous was absolutely ridiculous. There was the kind of paranoid air about the whole project. And she would answer for me if she was with me which he was quite a lot because she was the one who was transcribing tapes. People would ask her in my prisons. What are you doing what? Why is she why she in Amman? Or ask me directly and I was told to say we're doing special sure project for predecessor so I was being told to fudge all the time podcast broadcast and online. This is conversations with Sarah cannot escape on. ABC Radio So Hillary you're traveling between the princess royal compound in Amman in Jordan. Alan and your home in Melbourne did easily come into the picture. Once the once the word got asked my marriage had fallen over. I got of course. All kinds of lovely sympathetic phone calls from friends. All over the place and one of them was my old friend. Dear Friend Common Khelil who is a publishing titan in England. She's amazing and she started Virago and then she ran. Jonathan Cape Chatto winterson. Every damn thing. She rang me and said I was taking the Hashemite project and she was not very pleased about this because she city Hassam was quite famous on English television. So people in England knew all about him. No now on in Australia but in England they did and she wasn't in favor of me doing this project she said. Why did you do rot? Something else don't do that but I was by the stage stage thoroughly seduced so I said I told her that the marriage it collapsed and I was thinking of living somewhere else for awhile and instead of going going back to Australia after a taping session with city Hassan and working on the book at home and dealing with jet legs. Thirty eight hours of flying. Yeah I would think I was thinking of maybe going to Italy where I'd been before. And she said she thought she had a friend who might be able to help me. So that's what happened. She her friend unfound gave me the a delightful little apartment in court. Toner for a the lot full of rinse could manage and I I would go from a man to call turn to rust and it was only four hours from a man to call Tony Rome and it was fabulous on the train with all my bits and pieces and unwrought where you didn't hear planes going over all the time. Cortana is in Tuscany. How I would imagine village in Tuscany to look? It's it's where Francis Males wrote that execrable book about how Wonderful Tuscany Malls and she was very unpopular. In Tuscany. I have to inequality Turner I have to tell you. So many tourists came to Koto because of her there and they all wanted to go and see her house but didn't really want anything else so and she'd Pantley tried to stop public swimming pool because it made too much noise in into her backyard or something or other but this is the epitome of romantic pastoral laying. Play a love story and I was going to quote not because of a love story but because of a broken heart so obviously I was a very different candidates and I looked miserable and I felt miserable miserable. I didn't feel miserable in Jordan because I was working that was what was a fabulous about having this job it was totally engrossing and it was only when I got on the train to go back to Italy and I wanted to get the air I was going to rush and do all the work on the book there and it was a deal little apartment and and love the town but I was lonely. I was solitary there in an easily. There is no good word. Solitude I discovered there is not it's so Solo Romeo. It's terrible and they see that you're on your own in a cafe and they don't serve you all they give you a terrible table. Tell me a bit more about the town. Hillary how old is that. How old is oh gosh it trust can I mean it goes way way back with huge walls and stones and the history written in the stones? It's amazing amazing. Tell me the story of the patron saint of Cortana Santa Margarita outside the boundaries. She was a single mother really. She ran away from her he may have been her husband. Omar bin her love. It's not clear but anyway she. She lost her protector and she tricked back to her family. Who didn't want her with her baby? In the snow these sorts of stories and found a way to Cortana where the Franciscans who just you started their their their monastery talker in which was astonishing She was a young woman with a young son and she became Religious person in quarter and started her own Orders for the poor poor poor women in particular in that part of the world so and the medical thing about Santa Margarita was that she is still in Colorado at a tiny coffin in the church at the top of the time she's in uncorrupted. She's a saint. Her little body is lying. The in her robes in a glass lock snow white and the glass coffin and people trek up the the mountain and see her and I did that too. It was she was amazing. The hazing so you were in a little apartment. What kind of you did you have from allies? Where you did your writing row over the plains rise over the plains where the Tuscan armies marched and you could hear? The train's going down balloon so it was a fabulous. Ah Permanent Sky on the for big big scars and big. Weather's you'd see where the rolling in across the plane and have to learn to deal with your washing was if you didn't Sabine would be billowing. All the time which happened to me a couple of done did it snowed. It snowed in the winter. In the winter it was of course. Horrific lonely took me a while to work out. There were two of everything in China so that the Green Grocer one of the grosses could take their holidays so there was always voice supplies. You weren't going to perish but when the snows came at they filled up the lanes on the roads which are tiny and the snow. Plows would eventually released you but you were. You know you will contain snow for many many hours sometimes in the winter and you had very big snow coats and boots and all of that kind of gear which I acquired quad The other villages make a view they thought was really weird. A weird for the US not not someone they wanted really do get to know it was an old woman in the apartment Niimi and he invited me in for a coffee one day and kissing on must invite her back in a Mustang back back in and she sought as writing romances. That I thought I've actually thought I probably should have been writing man's by this stage because I was starting housing to realize that the book was getting to the point where it was very hard to be the one I wanted to tell me about one friend that you made made a friendship with an old woman called Nella who shave Nilo McNary. She was a she lived. The top of Italian. The most beautiful house awesome ever seen in my life with a Linden tree on the courtyard and an astonishing house built into the side of the mountain and Nella was very rich but she was also very main lot of rich women are and she does all her clothes at the charity shop and she was always telling me I was too extravagance than shoes. She she would use me to hold her car. She had an old bomb of a car and she'd go charging across the plane to take a piece of furniture to be fixed up in a town on somewhere other and she'd have me holding the piece of furniture and the car door shut while she and she was very old Neyla much older than me but very fit because everyone in auto owners fit. Because there's so steep they walk up pills down those so I had a great fun with Nila and she taught me a few tricks about house gates on and off trains which was terribly had the water. What did she teach you how to have a She thought I had a very submissive. Australian men that she despised Australians. Basically Taylor made it very clear that we have no interest whatsoever. But you don't know how to find someone to help you on the train. which is indeed true? I had very big bags going backwards and forwards to Jordan with with posh clothes and computers and all of that stuff and she show me how I could identify young men on the station who will from good families and instruct them to come and help me with the right tone of voice so she cubs remember how to do very useful scary indeed. I helped on and off the train from then on very grateful to Nila. How are you trying to to learn? Italian hilary while I try to try very hard to learn Italian and I went to Italian classes where you had to make up stories about you. Tell the Story Arabia love but my mom's so awful. I didn't tell anyone so I made up a fancy story about everything that was happening to me. Hadn't happened to me and and I by telling was terrible at I would make little lists in the morning of things too so I can go shopping and song and I was hopeless as and I think it was because I was so miserable all all it was coming back to me was a bit of fried reasonable French and school goal German and and they would come pouring back into my brain and my attention was non-existence absolutely non-existent until my family started arising arriving and my granddaughter speak like Italian Asshole to pull myself together and ultimate baiser given that that you'll someone who's made their life in words it must have been very disconcerting according to not be able to speak in the when you add terrible terrible to be to be silenced is awful thing and it made me of course immensely sympathetic Zeke to other strawberry who were strangers in that place and no one spoke to them. You say that you were very lonely. How do see we have lifted loan before no I hadn't? I was astonished to work out. I'd never ever lived alone. Yes ever and how you treated as a a single woman In Khotan Tana. Oh I was just ignored. Have to insert myself to make something happen. I think I think I looked terrible. I think I looked very miserable. Trudging through the snow or trash off the street with my little bag of food for that day and I don't think the Bob that was coming off me was particularly appealing. But I made an effort. I went out to eat and I went to the OBAMAS. Very terrific buzz and terrific coffee shops and all that sort of stuff so I would go and then realized I'm being ignored and not know how to insert myself with my rotten Italian so so I had another friend who was Linda Passerini and she was much much kinder to me than Nila was Nelson Car Nila. Nila was rude to me and made me laugh a lot but Lindahl showed me the ropes. She'd lived there for many issues and wonderful. left-wing contests are actually but she never used the title and she'd lived in Katerina for forty years and it was her apartment. I was in for some women living alone. Particularly after a lifetime of looking after children and husbands can can be Glorious and liberating. Why do you think it was so not that way for you? I Ah I think because Oh my son was my son who was working in London with with drug affected. Kids used to ring me up to make sure I was okay. And he said what's wrong with your mom is the job blaming yourself for everything which is true. I was and he said I'll send you a book. He sent me one called feeling good which I had to read a bit of every night didn't but it is very nice to get bus kids. Were you surprised we taken aback backbone. How hard you found living alone? Absolutely devastated about shocked by it It's very shocking to realize how vulnerable this what happened to me. It happens to many many women of my age and it's a everything stops. You think nothing will ever start again in. I mean it just but I was very fortunate because I had work and I had worked. I was engrossed in friends. Visited me sometimes on their way through to somewhere else and that was beat to. Did you confide in any of those friends. I didn't I didn't because they were from here. And and they were tactless rob sometimes and so. I saw your husband with the book. The book launch this all. I didn't want to hear anything like this at all just wanted to be kind of cut off. I think anyway anyway it was a hard. Tom Are recovered. When you look back at it now do you think that that difficulty that Greif even was at all about your marriage or was was it just that being alone let things come to the surface? Maybe for many many years of many different things that hadn't had the chance to. I think I think lots of things come up when something big like that happens to you and I. I really realized that I was extremely depressed and not coping very well and things are things that happened to me. Of course I mean I was in my mid sixties so I had many many things happened about had three children and the baby before my three children who was born prematurely and died after a couple of days which had always shattered me at that. Tam of MEA abusive lighter April and that surfaced again always surfaces and other things that happened to me surfaces surfaces world. So when you very learn new face your own guilty face your own complicity and things that you've done new face the good things in the the loss of the good things and some of the bad things so it was a very hard time and I was. I think I was very very fortunate. Position to be able to deal with all this Belan Harwood. If I've been somewhere with our been back maybe other things were coming to a head with the Prince's book as well what feedback where you getting from him. The the I four the first chapter are left behind. He didn't like because there were too personal. And I found extrordinary He didn't want his any information about his childhood. All you didn't mention of his mother he had the most marvelous mother who I felt. I knew I'd seen gene so many photos of her. I knew that there will be some stories. He wouldn't want told but I wasn't prepared for him to say this is this is forgotten them word he used to dismiss it but it was was too soft for him. He didn't he was much more interested in doing a book about politics about policy Z.. About being Crown Prince about institution building. That was the one we started to do. Did you increasingly get the sense that there were other people with their fingers in the pie around this book that may be decisions. Were being made elsewhere in the family to it took me a long time to realize the family the family. I really wanted to certain kinds of books. There's no doubt that the princess wife who I liked enormously would come offer herself to be interviewed about things. She wanted in the book but the things she wanted were not the things that he wanted and similarly the doors did the same thing princess body but Princess Badia the Wanted him to say more about women and I did too. So that was that was. We're on the same page there but people were telling me stories. I was getting much more in tune with the family and also aware of both the complexities were so I had a strong sense. That the only kind of book we you could do was the con that he was happy to do. Laid you into decide to withdraw from the project. What happened for you to say? I can't not work on the city. So pathetic now and when I looked back at all Documentation the notes are made at the time of everything. I'm astonished that AH DID WITHDRAW The book. I finished the ball hours just alone in the in the place where I work there because most of the foreign people who worked for the Mogollon on holidays it was very hot with June and the family were in London and I was almost wasn't entirely alone but I was finishing the book and I started getting phone calls from London from members of the family wanting changes made and made ones change inge. Major be perfectly reasonable and then I heard from the housekeeper. Who'd been the woman who ran me originally? Hey princess arm was sitting in the garden with his daughter looking very press she said looking very depressed. My heart sank anew anew what was happening happening near the Garden Bayden Emma Sophia doing some Interviewing him when he was in London and I had the strong sense that the book was it was being got at to simplify the book to change. Some of the things he'd once said to me in one of our interviewing sessions which are gone extremely me will he turned to me and he said. Don't let them sense to me and I didn't ask him who they were. I didn't have the faintest idea. But this is what came back to me when I was getting these phone calls. And they were getting more and more adamant and there were becoming instructions. I'm ordering you. These are other people in the royal family. Not The criticism of the princess. Was the Princess Princess Body who was bringing me and she said she was a very young woman and she said I'm ordering you to make these changes changes in our said but I can't make the militia. Father tells me himself that he wants. It's his book and he has to instruct me himself and and she went away and didn't hear I didn't hear he didn't ever bring me and instruct me and she rang again and say I am instructing. This is what must happen. This is what must be done. They were changes to the tone of the book. Though making it much more obsequious I think but the things about the succession changed as he had wanted in in a very modest kind of way they would turning it so that it was is not the book that he wanted are felt quite sure of that so I said Account make them and not just lifted that hung up. I and I finished the project and lifted in printed off in the office lifted in six little piles. I don't know why six but I did leave six and copied all roll onto a USB stick of course and and I got the office to get me a a plane ass and are GonNa play and just left just left and nine lift and are all the way back on the train plan on the train kept on doing the right thing about doing the right thing. I go back to coach Turner Log. I was sure I was doing the right thing. And I'll send long email explaining why I couldn't finish it but offering to finish it for them to get get it to the point where they were happy and I would see it through the publisher in London where I was a loss and the odd sit up a publisher they for them. I was wrong and persuasion regime was tried and are still said no no no. I couldn't take that. I think I'd still be there really arguing. If and because he didn't come until me himself why he wanted those changes. It was not possible. Is it being spoken to rudely by young also rather officer was being up my my Australian. This rose up just told her count copying spoke to like this. It was something to do with Maliki. Did you ever hear hear from Prince. Hassan himself Ardila. Got A stupid course. A wonderful big envelope with a rid seal arrived in the mail in quota and and I'm big red seal with a lovely letter from him saying that he'd values and made him think very hard about his work and good things like this and I was very pleased about this and I didn't of course here from anyone else ever again. Has He got onto publish version of the book that he will wear the publisher's website and hoping it would pop-up and there would be probably with photos editon because we're going to have photos so lovely photos to include and with a bit scouser how they want to cut up but never appeared so I suspect it was a form of therapy for prince her son and it was. It was a form of therapy for me. Eighty two. I think it was a very. That's only just the good to me this moment but it was a project is I think he enjoyed doing at asset Ni Phil Fabulous subduing enjoyed it very much. And they gave me a wonderful time and there is no book so I had failed marriage and a fail book that I came back to Australia. It was quite a hard thing to do with those two. Things came back to Australia with this realization. That living alone maybe wasn't the right thing today. For Hilary mcphee. So who lives with you now. Who's in your house with our when I came back tolstoy Musicians might be the answer because various people advise meet to get rises to live in the house which I thought I had Rosa living in the house husband Rosser and the two rises hopeless so not a writer and and it. It was a particular out of house rather thick walls and wooden floors and saw so A young musician for son of a friend of mine in London leashes leashes came to me one day and said this house is perfect for musicians. He went upstairs and he checked it. All earthern has suddenly thought. Of course I thought has get musicians. ZANU manage
Blair Enns in conversation
"This is ben's fat at the ip. Today we had our commercial conference at the british library. We have number of speakers of talking around. The theme of how agencies can take more control control pricing control of pitching and one of the speakers. is a guy that we've heard from before blair ends who has written a book how to win without pitching He gave a very Entertaining and always electrifying speech. About how agencies should try and take control of the pitching process and i grabbed him for a ten minute chat just after he had spoken one of the things that i think a lot of agency. People believe that they should be relationship. Builders not challenges to relationships and it seems to me that what you have catering and i get the logic of it might get in the way of that in some people's minds. How would you answer that. Yeah there's a misconception around the role of relationship in not just new business development but all bb to be sales. And i think neil rackham the founder of spin selling said it best and he said it in the introduction to the fantastic book called the challenger sale which talked about at length last year. He said the relationship is the reward for delivering value and too often people who have kind of high affiliation needs who who often. We see that in in client services roles people who are driven to connect with people. That's not a bad thing. But if that's a personal motivation for you to to build relationships with people then your natural which is to build a relationship and hope that an engagement will follow and really you want view the relationship as the reward for get delivered value. I secure the engagement and then the relationship will come out of it the idea that. You're going to befriend somebody into hiring us. Just just patently false in the agency world so but it's it is a common. It's a common viewpoint. Yeah absolutely i mean. And i've spent my life in agencies and agencies a full of charismatic likeable people. And i think they do have a temptation to believe that once they let loose on a klein their xiuchong. We'll get them where they want to get. But really what you're saying is that doesn't happen. Yeah and i don't mean to diminish the importance of real relationships where you have a client that you've worked with previously. They know you they know your work. Maybe they've like you personally that all of that's really valuable but the idea that you're going to kind of build the rollet personal relationship and lean on personal report and an engagement will fall from that. That's just that's just not. It's not an appropriate way to operate. I wanna talk. Show little bit about the decision making process both in the agency and at the client end because you know we fall into the habit of saying the client and the agency but there are a lot of people involved on both sides And one of the things that i can see might be a problem. Is that quite often. Those people that start negotiation for the agency or the responsibly armed appeal whatever. It might be you know. They're not at the top of the tree. And they won't necessarily be emboldened to be a little bit. Disruptive will take controllers you would have it and on the other hand some of the clients that they're dealing with our also people down the line who are working to a formula or process have been told to work to and therefore we're going to be less receptive to anybody cutting raffle being difficult for good reason. Yeah so can you talk a bit about that. Because in the real world you know are always people involved in these in these decisions. These are great points in the same principles apply to the subject of value pricing. Where which tim williams is talking about today and you know we can all kind of buy into the theory of value pricing. But if you want to sell an engagement based on value you need to have a on the agency side of the table. Somebody who's capable of having that conversation and be you need somebody on the client side of the table who's actually charged with future value. And as you point out here sometimes. There are people at the table. Who's they're not charged with creating future value for the client organization. They're charged with bringing in cost lowest possible or they're charged charged with managing the process. It's very difficult in those situations to be able to push back where you have to do. Is you have to if if you wanna get this high up in the client side of the organization as you can and that so when the relationship begins kind of the middle management level or to lower. That's the first place you need to push back and say listen you know. I'm sorry but we're not going to follow this kind of procurement process as laid out and before we even decide on whether or not it makes sense to take the next step. We need to have a conversation with certain key individuals on on your team. And if we can't have that conversation then we'd just as a matter of policy we can't move forward so i even decide whether or not this makes sense to take the next step. We need to have a conversation with. I'll use the term key decision-makers that's not a term you would use an actual conversation you would identify. You would name the individuals now you've been Advising a number of agencies over over time. You've seen this storm. Well you've seen people take take your recipe for success and apply it. Yeah can you give us some Because i think a win one of his stories if the real world these things do come alive. Yeah i'll concede that the larger the agency the larger the client the closer to new york city or in this case london. I'm in almost all lennon here. And the more of a pure advertising play the account is the more difficult it is because the bad practices are ingrained equally on the client side and on the agency side so the firms that do best at this approach pushing back in gaining concessions are the firms where first of all they're a little bit smaller tend to be a little bit smaller a little more specialized number one and number two the individual. Who's pushing back has more authority. So if you're if you're running if you're a group account director in a network aimed owned agency and you are pushing back and essentially risking The fact that this opportunity might go away and then you have to answer the people above you and people above them and people above them. That gets a little bit more difficult to do. So it's a combination of the firm needs to be positioned. Well you need to be seen as meaningfully different the individual on the agency sightings having these conversations needs to really buy into this approach and it helps if it's aligned with their own model makeup and then there needs to be the more risk that they are comfortable taking in that situation the better. They are the they're likely to perform. That makes absolute sense to me. And i know from one's person expense outside of agency client relationships if you'll if you're hiring someone to do some building work on your house or something you're after much more impressed by the people you talk to who say no no no. Yeah yeah people want to do it. I that you do this then. The person that just takes dictation your can do that. I can do that if you're if you're looking for examples. I just at coffee. after mytalk. somebody came up to me and said i heard you speak a few years ago. And and he said i just had a situation. We were asked to pitch an ice. I looked at the requirements. And i said no. We're not going to pitch. And then three days later the the cmo called and said hey. I hear not in the pitch and he said yeah well. Here's the here the things i don't like about the pitch and he said no problem will change them so they went on to win. The business was a million a million pounds fees and it started with him saying no and walking away. And that's one of the points. I made in the talk today. Is you know. I think a lot of these conversations. A lot of the client comes to us and says here's what we'd like from you hear the conditions and we're just so conditioned to say yes. We just start with no and see what happens after that i am. I must say. I was very taken with thought that you that you put across earlier and that was the pushback early. If you think something isn't right oh you don't like the way the things being set up let that be known early on because it seemed to me that not only is that chime with everything you're saying but in the eyes of the client your already positioning yourself. You already separating yourself from the pack and the clyde is probably thinking Not being unreasonable. These are interesting people. You'd have a point of view rather than perhaps the zoo would just saying. Yeah yeah yeah. We'll do whatever. I've seen so many examples in particular here in the uk where the client has been offended at the agency pushing back but it only ever happens when the client is sort of. The agency is compliant in the beginning. And then they kind of muster up the courage to say no in the middle of the process that the client finds that highly offensive. But if you begin the relationship that way there should be nothing offensive about it. You just you can apologize. Say this you know we're not going to do that for this reason. And whatever the reason is you just say what you're thinking. now. I wanna ask you about another issue. That's very prevalent here in the uk. Which is the role of intermediaries in setting up these pitches. We've got three or four very powerful ones. I think is probably true in new york. Yes now this complicates matters. Doesn't it because they are. They taking the the job the client if you like being paid where around the pitch for you where run a fair process. We'll get the right result but they don't really want you cutting out and difficult. Yeah so. I talk about the four priorities of winning new business. I win without pitching if you can. If you cannot then try to derail the pitch if you cannot derail the pitch try to gain an advantage and then the fourth priority is walkway if you cannot and if you apply that strictly to you know process. That's mediated by search consultant. You're gonna find that you're you end up walking away a lot unless there's a situation like the one i shared with you. There's a situation where the client really really would like to have your firm in the pitch. Then you you. You really just have to push back and say i know some firms that just say. We refuse to participate in a process. Run by an outside consultant. And that's just a decision that they make. But you're not it's not unless there's it. They're the equivalent of dealing with procurement or dealing with perhaps middle managers who were charged with running a process and they're not charged with future value. So unless somebody in the client side declined organization who's charged with creating future value is interested in having you at the table. Then you have no power an in a way. That is a complication. That's powered on top of the other. One we talked about which is im- big of these. These prices are ingrained in. it's more difficult. it's in big agencies. They often faces into problems. Get piled on problems. It gets harder to do the very sensible things that you're recommending not saying as possible so if this works and i take it from you that it does i believe it. Why why did we see more of it. Why is still doing the same old same old. And and being compliant in these pitches. Yeah and why. Why is everybody familiar with the principles of value pricing but very few creative firms or value pricing. And the truth is it's a little bit difficult to pull off. The conversations are not easy even value. Pricing comes down to the failure of firms to value. Price comes down to failure of the value conversation which is conversation between human beings in which one person is guiding the other. And there's a little bit of pushback and it's the same thing in selling so it's just easier in pricing. it's easier to not have those conversations to fall back on cost plus in selling. It's easier to fall back on the process as it's been laid out to you by the client and do you think because it's not easy that there is a personality type or a a a skill set that exists in certain people. The agency should be training apple. There should be identified and using in these conversations. Yeah there's a personality type work or spectrum personality types that are more drawn to this approach and you can test for it depending on. I use an obscure assessment to give me a sense of somebody's motivational makeup. And you can't overweight an objective assessment. But that's a starting point and then you'll just see that some people are kind of naturally gravitate to this approach the lean forward when you talk about it and others will just list all the reasons why can't possibly happen so you can't take somebody who would just readily list all those reasons. Why can't possibly work this way and train them but the people who are interested the people are really fed up with the pitch process and being seen as a vendor than an ex and who want to be seen as the expert practitioner. Those are the people that you want to focus on putting in key positions training. Okay so last question to think that there is any possibility that an organization like the ip a the professional body for the agencies could try and a regulation or regulated approach to pitching that incorporated many of your ideas that the clients and the would adhere to do. You think that's just a pipe dream everywhere around the world. That we're i've i've looked every jurisdiction i've worked in where i've looked at kind of the professional body like the ip a war. Maybe the design business association on the design side where they have tried to advocate or Dictate a kind of buying process for the client has failed and i just don't do not think there will ever. If i were a client i would have. No interest in clients. Have the power because because of oversupply of undifferentiated creative firms. So why if i were a client why would i readily give up that power. The ability to kind of get a better price. It's cetera to push agencies around in the in the selection process. Why would i voluntarily give that up. You make a good point. And i didn't believe it could be done a really what we're what we're saying is and this is music too many agencies years because they inherently competitive beasts. There's a huge opportunity out there. For those agencies that do grasp the nettle the do take the difficult conversations on early because if they can move this concession onto the value. They're giving the price that they're offering. This is for Is a big win. Yeah if he if you had two choices one is. We could eliminate free pitching from the agency landscape so everybody is removed from the burden. Or you could figure out how to win without pitching well. Everybody else pitched their brains out what you select point moment. Okay thanks great. Continue my pleasure paul. Thank you found. Observations interesting and indeed that some of them into practice. He's got lots of examples of how this is worth although america. But i didn't hear anything to i didn't believe could be applied to say. Thanks for listening coupons fan and this has been the podcast.
Judy Batalion: ...that strength and courage can be passed down through generations
"Support for this podcast comes from paypal. Small business owner pay pal. Qr codes safe and easy payment option. It's all the security pay pal is known for online in person cash. Only qr codes. Allow you to accept credit or debit with everyday. Low fees no additional hardware or software needed. Use the app to generate your unique. Qr code customer scan your code with their pay pal app to pay you learn more at paypal dot com slash. Us slash get qr code. Welcome to nobody. Told me. I'm laura owens and i'm jan black and we'd love to learn about the lives of remarkable people and find out how they cope during difficult times on the show on this episode will learn about some of the unsung heroines of world. War two the brave young jewish women in the ghettos of the nazi occupation in poland. They saw an acknowledged the truth of their time and risk their lives in the fight for justice and freedom and joining us is author. judy battalion. Who did painstaking research. And writing the new book the light of days the untold story of women resistance fighters in hitler's ghettos. It's a story that is so inspirational fascinating important. That steven spielberg has optioned it for a major motion picture. Judy thank you so much for joining us. I'll thank you so much for having me. i'm. I'm really excited to be here. Paint the picture for us if you will of the ghettos in nazi occupation in poland during world war two and the female resistance fighters in those ghettos. Sure so just. For some context there were over. Four hundred ghettos in poland in world war two set up ghettos To imprison jews. These were usually in. What were the formerly who are areas of cities towns and. They threw out all christians who were living there and forced all jews. The local jews to move in they were usually extremely crowded. The ghettos were very small. You could have several families sharing room. They were suffered from tremendous hunger. There was disease. There was thirst And people were were truly terrified. They didn't know what was going on. They were being tortured. There was you know they. They lived in your desk constantly People felt fully occupied both physically and mentally psychically to now. You asked about the women in in these conditions. So the women that i write about in my book or young jewish women who are in these ghettos and and came together or work together to resist into defy the nazis and they did many different things that i try to to show a wide range of their organized resistance activity in some cases it was organizing soup kitchens and secret underground schools secret cultural programs Bulletin they wrote underground bulletins. They edited newspapers Some women were They they left the ghettos. And i can get into that later They pretended to be christian. They would go out and blow up. Nazi supply trains assassinate gestapo man. They were also ghetto fighters in in ghetto uprisings they were guerrilla fighters and many of the women that i talked about at the risk to their lives. They were courier girls. They slipped in and out ghettos all the time. Connecting ghettos bringing jews information Bringing them these bulletin sometimes breeding them in in their hair and eventually they were they were actually helping to arm the underground smuggling in weapons ammunition explosives and also rescuing other jews helping take jews out of the ghettos and finding them safe spaces either in cities or in the forests. It seems like these are women that we should have known about for years and years. Now i mean there's so many different heroes that we've been fortunate enough to learn from during the holocaust world war two but these womens seem so special and unique. Why is it that we are just now learning about them. And how did you even find out about them because that was by mistake as well. Yes this was completely accident. Let me let me start by answering their this This whole project began serendipitous. We i i. It began fourteen years ago. It's been quite an odyssey. I was living in london at the time. And i i was thinking and exploring my jewish thinking a lot about jewish identity I myself am the granddaughter of holocaust survivors. And i was thinking a lot about What i call the emotional legacy of the holocaust the generational transmission of trauma in my own life. I was thinking a lot. About how i how. I responded to danger. In how my holocaust heritage had sort of shaped by my understanding of risk and danger and i decided to write a piece about this this kind of psychological. And i happen to be doing some research at the british library. An end accidentally came across a book. it was an old unusual book in a blue fabric cover with gold lettering. And you know dusty. Old book was also in yiddish. It was called coin into ghettos. Women in the ghettos and i started flipping through the book. But this was a story of women in the ghettos like i had never heard. This was a collection of sort of dozens and dozens of names and photographs. Bios obituaries excerpts. From testimonies of young jewish women who fought the nazis from the ghettos with chapter titles like weapons and ammunition and a partisan combat So i immediately. I was stunned by this. I had to you know. I thought my yiddish was a bit rusty. I reread it a few times trying to make sure i was getting this right But i i knew that i knew right away that this was a a really remarkable story that i needed to work on. You know the one question that comes to my mind is how much surveillance did the nazis have over these women. I mean how is it that they were able to mount this kind of resistance there many reasons for so women in particular took on this rule in the resistance where they left the ghettos they did work on the outside and yes there was tremendous surveillance the every step they took crossing the ghetto gate or or or border every step outside i mean after risk to their lives and many of them were killed But women women were. It was easier for women to pass than for men to pass as christians and and that's partially why women took on a lot of this work on the outside Women were not circumcised. So they they didn't have the physical marker of their jewishness on their body. They also in the nineteen thirties in poland. Boys and girls were were subject to mandatory education but often in jewish families. They would send their sons to jewish schools but their daughters to polish public. This was to save on tuition But ultimately this meant that the girls. The girls who i write about who ended up becoming underground operatives it. They were accustomed to polish. Moore's to their habits to christian prayers even and mannerisms and you want they also learnt to speak polish like poll. They always say without their creaky. Yiddish accent in. So yes this was you know were. They were performing. This was a life and death acting job. They were performing at every second of of the day. Every second of their missions they were living these false identities but several of them managed and they did it. We're so glad to have you. As part of our nobody told me family and we love sharing information with you about our sponsors. We've tried a lot of different omega three supplements and have to say e we is the best one we've ever used. Their secret is algae it's a whole nother level than plane fish oil. Here's why we love you. 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Is that the different. People resisted and revolted in different ways Everyone everyone's different. Everyone has different personalities in and conditions in their lives and as i mentioned earlier some women they were take they were taking care of orphans and helping to rescue them in finding children hiding spots whereas others were combat fighters and throwing explosives and they you know people people can resist in in different ways that that sort of suit sued them and their personalities and their in their life situations also something. That's really interesting to me in. This story is that these weren't just random groups of men and women who got together to resist. These were organized resistance efforts that i write about and many of these groups were groups before the war Jewish youth in poland in the thirties was organized in two youth movements. Most i mean. A huge number of young jewish poles were members of the youth movement to build like the scouts but more so these were intellectual spiritual emotional and social training grounds for young people and they weren't to value truth and self awareness and self sufficiency and cried in their heritage pride in their identity. They also learnt how to work together. They valued collaboration. Connectivity egalitarian is inequality And many of them had it'd be even before the war. These young people had left their homes to to live together in commune's So i think that what i'm getting at my long winded answer is that these were were. These were organized efforts among people who had bonds who trusted each other. And i think we can learn about that going forward to about about how to how to organize and how to seek through acts of rebellion and resistance in the conditions. That we have. How were they able to organize during this particular time. Well as i was saying they were already part of these groups so they had a structure to them they They already had leadership. Sort of hierarchies and groups knew each other. They trusted each other. They often live together even in the ghettos as well. so they they. They organized the same way that they organize themselves before the war. And tell us more about what their lives had been like before the war and then once they got into these ghettos very interesting nineteen thirties. Poland was a time of great cultural flourishing for the jewish community. There were a hundred eighty jewish newspapers in warsaw in the nineteen thirties. Art cedar professorships abounded museums culture was really thriving cultural community. But there was also anti-semitism there was also a a sense of Second class citizenry that jews experienced in that they they had different juice had different political parties and different values for how to handle that But in general the people i wrote about many of these women. As i said they're not only educated up to grade. They went university Often i came across a story about a young woman who shot gestapo man in the head and had a history degree from warsaw university. they women were educated. They were leaders. Both in the youth movements women had the vote. Actually m- poland quite early nineteen eighteen before many western countries. In general the bay lived. You know modern european lives so the transition to ghettoisation was brutal and horrific our. Nobody told me conversation continues in just a minute after we tell you about our sponsor air medicare network if a medical emergency arises. Are you prepared. 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Nobody who's story really stuck out to you as somebody who is a real role model in a heroine that we don't know about but we really should. Oh my goodness you can't have a favorite child. Don't make me do that surprising. I need they were also surprising. You know i. I mean i can tell you a few. I don't even know who to pick you know. Let me tell you about one woman from cops. Let nigga who i. I've certainly never heard of. She was a leader in the youth movements before the war and when war hit in in thirty nine she was twenty five years old And like many of the movement and including lie grandparents to she fled east and she made it across the border she was in belorussia and territory so she was actually safe but she couldn't take it. Fleeing crisis didn't suit her. She felt so responsible to her people that she smuggled herself back into nazi occupied poland. She went to warsaw. She became a leader in the warsaw. Ghetto again. She chose to be there he. She ran soup. Kitchens and cultural programs and negotiated with jewish and polish and german leaders. She put a kerchief over her face. She had very jewish features but she tried to hide them and travelled through the country connecting groups in all these ghettos she all illegal. She gave lectures in these circumstances bringing hope and spirit talk to people. She then brought them new she she went around telling the news of the nazi extermination plan the genocide she told many of the jewish communities about this. She was the first person to bring weapons into the warsaw ghetto. She hid them in a sack of potatoes. Two guns under the potatoes. She was stationed in in this town. Southwest poland called gene where she led the underground and help them prepare for revolt and and was killed shooting nazis from a bunker in fact after the war she she was given a military recognition by was answered polish leadership but and yet her stories completely forgotten she was known as de moment. In addition the mother among so many of the jews in poland. That story fascinating. What what else. What other stories to count to you. So for instance. I mean i. I'm really really I was really taken by the story of this. One woman bella hussan. She was with the underground from the get go and they stationed her in this town of greg. No and she was going to live on the outside because she was going to do a lot of career and mission work between the ghettos and she was pretending twenty four hours a day to be catholic to be a christian girl and so she got her a room in house and she needed to get a job because otherwise it would look suspect so she went to the local employment agency and they fell. We have the perfect job for you. And she got a job. Working his secretary for the gestapo. She worked in their office You know she's serving them tea and she did some translation work for them and they all knew her. She was one of their great employees. What she did. She ended up stealing their documents and she would bring them to jewish underground to had you know. These makeshift forgery. Labs where they could Copy documents aaron documents fake. You know they made fake passports. Fake visas fake travel papers fake id. Jews could pretend not to be jewish She amateur ended up smuggling guns in materials across the country. But one great stories that she one of the men in the analogous stop office developed a romantic like a crush on her in. He invited her to the christmas party and again she couldn't say no because that would seem suspect or unusual so that night to other careers on their own missions transporting weapons across the country. Were staying with her. So all three of these jewish women dressed up as young christian girls in went to stop. Oh christmas party. And there's a photograph in the book of taken of them at this christmas party. Risks just seem unreal. Do you think that they were for the most part trying to help. The greater good or was there a desire within them to also leave a legacy for themselves. What was it. I think this was entirely a about rescue. And in the cases where they knew they you know they had no chance. There was a word. We're a bunch of starving jews with two guns. We're not gonna talk all the nazis but for them it was about about friday about slide for future generations and and just about the fight for as we said for freedom for justice for what was right. They couldn't just stand by. How did they handle the fear. It's a good question. And don't know that i i. It's not something that they wrote about. I think they they didn't they. They performed. i think it was. They were so first of all. They were so filled. Fury and passion. I think fear was a almost a secondary feeling. They many of them. They assumed they would be killed. They were going on suicide missions. They didn't think sade live. They were surprised when they did live now. So i think that they. They were very driven on their missions. The you know they do talk about in in some diaries of the time about needing to fully enrolled Conce themselves in this resistance work because it actually helped them not feel grief not feel the horrible feelings around the deaths of their families in the things that they'd witnessed so they they were just performing this. I mean you Twenty four hours a day. Our nobody told me conversation continues after we tell you why. We're so excited about our sponsor care of the wellness brand. That makes it easy to maintain your health goals with a customized vitamin plan. That helps you feel your best today and support you long term. You can get a personally tailored approach to your unique health. Needs like weeded by taking care of in-depth five minute online quiz. Which ask you questions about your diet. Lifestyle and health concerns care. Holistic on line quiz is like getting a one on one consultation with a nutritionist. Without having to leave your home i found. The quiz is easy and fun to take. The questions are thought provoking and guide you to the vitamins. You may want to include in your daily packet be complex. Calcium plus magnesium and fish. Oil are among the recommendations for me. Follow care of expert recommendations or adjust your packet at anytime. What you get is totally up to you. I'm getting cranberry a probiotic and vitamin c among other vitamins and supplements in my daily packet. We started using products back in twenty eighteen and love the way care of is super transparent about the research and sourcing each of their products. And right now you can get fifty percent off your first care of order. Go to take care of dot com and enter code. Nobody told me fifty again. Get fifty percent off your first care of order by going to take care of dot com and enter code. Nobody told me fifty. That's nobody told me five zero. I was surprised to hear how they were able to cope with. A lotta this by using humor at a time when we never really think about coming out of this situation and you talk about the story of lily rickman and she actually seems like such such a brave and funny young woman who so many of us should try to emulate. What was her story. She was an example of someone who told jokes who told jokes during transports to alleviate fear to tell jokes at the camps for to alleviate fear and create solidarity for herself. Enter the others around her. I think one of the lines. I recall was she hit arrived at a camp at. Perhaps it was aushwitz in. They shaved the women's hair and she says i'm like hey great free haircuts and that was that was created a sense of control and camaraderie and you know humor. Is the weapon for people. That don't have weapons. That's two excellent way of putting it. What was your reaction when you found that steven spielberg wanted to option the book for a major motion picture. I was extremely excited. When might that come out while the very early stages so starting to work on the screenplay now so i. I don't know fingers crossed when you look at the stories of these remarkable women you look at how their lives were. And i'm wondering. Do you think you could have done what they did. No i don't And of course. I thought about that all the time reading about them writing about them. When done this. Could i have done this. I don't think so. i think that's why. I became so fascinated by them so obsessed by these figures. They felt like they could do something that i couldn't. They were so different from me. And that's part of what drew me to them. As you know the name of our show is nobody told me so. We ask our guest at the end of each show. What is your nobody told me lesson. So what's it nobody tell you about having courage and honor bravery that you didn't learn until you learned about the ghetto girls. That's a question. I think just as i said earlier when i i went into this. I was thinking so much about how trauma passes through generations. How difficulties pass through generations in Come out of this. I'm coming out of this thing. Keep how at the same time. Strength passes through generations bravery and courage and positive traits attributes as well. I feel like nobody told me that. I could think about the positive elements that have passed on in my heritage. Did you feel in some sense that these women were sort of sitting on your shoulder helping you write the stories now. I thought they were sitting on my shoulder. But i i always feel like more like make sure you're telling the story correctly. I felt a duty to tell their stories and to do so in as fair and complex and nuance to way as i could I i did feel like if. I don't tell the story of from couple of knits that found in some yiddish documents from the nineteen forties. I mean who will. Yeah yeah yeah. So there's a great responsibility there. How could people connect with you on social media and the internet if they'd like to find out more about your work short. My website is a judy battalion. Dot com and. I'm on instagram. Twitter and facebook at judy battalion super and the book is also available in a version for young people. Isn't it yes. There's a young readers edition geared at children ages ten to fourteen. Oh that's great. that's wonderful. Well judy thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me again. Our thanks judy battalion. Book is called the light of days. The untold story of women resistance fighters in hitler's ghettos and again her website is judy battalion. Dot com. We wish you the best of luck. Judy with the book and we can't wait to see the movie. Thank you so much. I'm jan black. And i'm laura you're listening to. Nobody told me. Thank you so much for joining us.
Episode 619, recorded 2020-12-25
"Good morning it's iowa mullahs and it's christmas morning. December twenty fifth and friday here in illinois and Hope all of you wherever you are whatever the day is for you. It may be a holiday or it may be a regular working day but hope you're having a bright sunny weather and hope your safe and well and being grateful. Just be alive so it's Regardless of your religion in america it's a it's our biggest holiday and for most people. It's a day when they don't work so it's a it's a day of rest unless you have children and then it's kind of a crazy hectic day and today it's especially good to take it as a day of rest to be with the people that we live with and not to be all the traveling and all the all the running around that we typically do ear during the holidays so i hope you are feeling safe wherever you are and able to relax for a while at eleven this morning Central time our the chicago public radio station is having a a production that the goodman theatre production company has done is an audio of the chris- christmas carol by charles dickens and they had it yesterday afternoon as well and i've been looking forward to it but i had some phone calls came in right after it. It had played just four. Maybe three to five minutes. And so i put that away in and talk to people on the phone and so two this morning. It's on again at eleven so if you have some time it looked. It sounded wonderful and a christmas. Carol is always a wonderful. It's wonderful to read. It's wonderful to hear it's wonderful to see your production of it so it's one of my very favorite. So that's what. I'll be able to enjoy today the other thing i wanted to share with you because this is a book. It's a big heavy book. It has the most beautiful illustrations in it in a pictures of buddhist art from around the world and different Hangings and different. It just says wonderful articles in it. My good friend tod nielsen. Who's a friend to blue lotus everywhere. He he lives most of the year. Maybe half of the year here in woodstock and then he lives in carlisle pennsylvania with he and bonday soma and monte so much is the the head of the blue lotus center in carlisle carlisle pennsylvania. So they have a house the todd purchased in They are they. He's up there a big part of the year and then has his home here. So tied gave me this book. Gifted it to me. He's he's just he's that kind of person and today is going to be day that i just dive into this. It's got so many articles but it's just full of beautiful art all buddhist art and there's an article. He really recommended wheel the wheel of life philosophy and ethics. I think that's the one they're also good. So that's that's part of my christmas day is to spend time with this beautiful anthology. It's called buddhism origins traditions and contemporary life edited by jonah iguana. The duma and son son may from the british library. Just it's gonna be that's gonna be a beautiful treasure me a jump into after a christmas carol so i have. I have a lovely lovely day planned of getting to do some reading that. I rarely get to do but while we're together today. I hope all of you are having peaceful day. And you're spending it in a way that is just bringing tranquility and peace and and giving you a chance to really enjoy the day and not be feeling like you're missing something and but if you can't beat together if you can't be together you can be together in spirit and just realize that there's really we're connected to the people we love and were connected to other people even if we don't love them and so spend the day just feeling that connection feeling feeling what it is to be connected to all other living living things living beings living living creatures if you have animals in your house enjoy enjoy their company and you can always call or send messages or Facetime or create a family soon but really enjoy what you do. Have because if you're if you're watching this you're alive and you've made it thus far into this pandemic year and that's that's That's a good thing right so stay well and stay peaceful state peaceful in your heart. I hope that's that's Something that you've been cultivating through this entire pandemic and hopefully even before that. And that's that process of you know we have to be cultivating these qualities within house for them to bloom and just be there for us without a struggle and it takes. It takes a long time and we're always working on it because if we all have our the things that get to us right we have the things that that can trigger that emotional distress. And they're different for all of us so we're always working on cultivating our own inner peace and our own sense of tranquillity and serenity and doesn't mean we're perfect all the time but we can learn when it's arising and then we can take care of it before it cripples us or before it hurts other people or hurts us more so that's when we reach out and there's there are different ways to reach out you can spend time with animals and you can spend time in nature and you can contact. Your loved. ones can volunteer to do things in the volunteer opportunities. Really different right now. So you can investigate and see where you can still volunteer and what you can do. So there's so many ways to take care of ourselves and it's still difficult because it's this is just a different thing than most of us have been through but remember that we can get through it and we can find contentment and peace. Just accept this that this is the way it is. This is the way the world is right now at this moment and it's always changing so i want to just let's do my wish and and sit together for a while and then You can get on with your christmas evening or your christmas day or if you're going to work or if you're just going to enjoy one of the one of the wonderful things to do on christmas to watch those old movies or some may not be so old but it's always fun to kind of dip into other earlier christmas memories and a lot of us do that by watching favorite movie for me. It's going to be listening to a christmas. Carol and you might have an in my family. We all have silly movies that we've that we've lobbed and that will probably all we may be all watching the same movie but whatever it is. You might listen to beautiful music. So let's let's sit together. That's something that we can all do. And it and it's going to help us and it's going to help everyone else and just think of today if you have to be alone. Think of it as a beautiful quiet day and enjoy it and find peace in it and you may reach out. I've already been able to say hello and see some different neighbors going off with their christmas presents. One of my good neighbors across the hall her son and and his wife and her granddaughter live very nearby and they're they're all safe with each other so she's off for a day with them and she had on a santa hat in her christmas sweater. A car full of Packages all wrapped up so it was just fun seeing her and being able to say merry christmas to her. So let's begin before we practice. Let's begin with my wish. And i'll end with it also. May i become at all times both now and forever a protector for those without protection. A guide for those who have lost their way a ship for those with an ocean to cross a sanctuary for those endanger a lamp for those without light a place of refuge for those who like shelter and a servant to all in need by means of this meritorious deed. May i never joined with the unwise. Only the wise until the time. I attain ivana so dust. Let yourself close your eyes. If you're watching this at the end of a busy day or at the end of a slow day you may test allow it to relax you and if it makes you drowsy your dozy. That drowsier sleepy. Just let it do that. If if if you're at the early part of your day stay alert. Stay awake and just be attentive to everything around first of all chess. Be aware of your body. Breathing in a few day has already become a little hectic. Be aware of peace within you of calm and peace and just be aware that it's in their let it rise up. Let's do a really quick body scan. We've been doing lately. That's part of the sati patana ceuta the four foundations of mindfulness and this is on the body parts. Start at the top of your head and we're not thinking as we do this but we can visualize we always begin with the skin. So as we moved down to our feet will be just observing in visualizing all of the skin that's the outer layer of our body and then we'll come up from our feet to the top of our head visualizing all of the flesh. Which is everything inside that protective coating and includes everything in us except the bones the hardest the skeleton and when with then that brings us back up to the top of our head again. And then we'll finish by just scanning very smoothly and flowing up the skeleton the bones so we do skin flesh and bones start at the top of your head and then be aware of your head your scalp skin. Scalp your face your ears skin and your neck skin your shoulders. Skin both arms from your upper arms lower arms and your hands and fingers skin. The top of your back all the skin. Hunter your arms across the top of your back and your upper chest skin then your mid torso skin in lower abdomen pelvic area skin in your hips skin. Your upper legs both legs skin you lower legs skin down into your feet and your toes skin now from your toes backup. We're doing the flash hall of the wet stuff within us. The oregon's the blood. The muscles the tissue our feet on our toes flesh into both of our lower legs flash are upper legs. Flesh our hips and our pelvic area. Flesh are abdomen flesh. Coming to all the organs in our torso are middle torso flash in our upper torso flesh into our shoulders are flesh down into our arms both arms upper arms flesh lower arms flesh in our hands and fingers flash now back up to the neck flesh and into the head flesh on the outside of our skull under her skin and the flesh inside this call the brain. Now start again at the top of your head and we'll come down with this with the bohm's our skeleton the hardness in the body. Cover all of your head inside bones into our neck bones shoulders. Oh down into our upper arms both arms foams lower arms both arms bones in all the bones and our hands and our fingers come back to the upper part of our torso through the inside of the body be aware folds middle torso bones lower torso and her pelvic area and hips bones. Both legs upper legs phones lower legs bones and two feet and our toes so many bones. Now be aware. Just be with this body that we've just explored an observed it's important to but it's not who we are it's made up of all of these parts be aware of it. Feel centered and grounded in your body. Be aware of your body breathing. Call it though body. The body's doing the work we're just allowing it to breathe giving it lifted if we lift our spine we give it the maximum area in our longs so our natural breath becomes steeper and observe breath. Either in your belly being aware the rise of your ballet when you inhale in the contraction when you exhale or observe it around her nostrils that more subtle spot observe each breath as you inhale breathing energy and as you exhale breathing out energy and for today breath in peace and breath out piece peace for yourself and your loved ones and your teachers and your friends and your neighbors and the world now before i leave he can just keep sitting with your eyes closed a few kellyanne or if you need to be heavy is open. That's perfectly okay. Does try not to let them be distractions for you. But i'll read it. Just in case i start to forget a line. I still have to keep my eyes on it i'll end with my wish again in. Remember that when we become Protectors of others when we become a peacemakers we we make the world safer for everyone and we began by being peaceful to the people in the end the critters and the the nature we began to be peaceful towards all of that and all of them and that allows them to be more calm and more at peace and it just spreads that way we become a peacemaker within fine piece for ourselves and then We we breathed that out and with every breath. It's helping spread peace. And the best way we can become peacemakers i thanks to begin with the precepts precepts are just a waste to be protective and caring for all other life Not to kill and not to take things that don't belong to us and not to engage in sexual misconduct and harm people that way and not to use wrong speech not to not to try to tell untruths and get away with it and not to become intoxicated whether it's with drugs or alcohol because we lose when we become intoxicated. We've lost our mindfulness and That becomes frightening for other people. So it's those are the ways we become peaceful. Those are the ways we become peacemakers so just Lecher attention today to be a peacemaker. So let's end with this. But i'll have to leave. You can keep sitting if you can. If it's a good time for you just to be with yourself quietly and sending all the love first of all to yourself and then send it out. May i become at all times both now and forever a protector for those without protection. A guide for those who have lost their way. I ship for those with an ocean to cross a sanctuary for those endanger a lamb for those without light a place of refuge for those who like shelter and a servant to all in need by means of this meritorious deed may never join with the unwise only the wise until the time attain the. Bonna so thanks for being with me. Today and Have a beautiful day. And i'll see you on sunday. Merry christmas happy christmas.
Feminist Architecture: The Case of Female Public Toilets - Prof. Barbara Penner
"Before we thought the show. I'd like to take a minute to ask you guys to help us. Keep the show alive by subscribing youtube channels and on spotify. Nike's please also take time to follow some instagram. at the no-show put those of you can help a little bit more. Please contribute our patriot account which can be found on our youtube videos and website to access to all these links please visit. Www dot the no show dot net. If you aren't already aware the no-show put cost an initiative designed to make academic research accessible to everyone. Why is it that we spend billions of taxpayer money each year to fund some of the most amazing research but never really get to know. What's in it eye opening up the latest research a much wider audience. Not only do we expand our knowledge and understanding of the world but we also inspire young people who otherwise wouldn't know anything about this book is time we the people get involved with academic research even if it's just as listeners so we can truly make education a democracy so barbara. Thank you for joining me. Really pleased to have you. And he's read unusual times pre uncertain for for somebody who's works in architecture department. Well i think that it's uncertain for everyone. But you're right. Architecture deals with bricks and mortar and somehow the whole our emphasis shift to remote learning remote environments. That is actually. I think particularly challenging for those in architecture. are are. Can you imagine an less of diving to your work. How first of all. How did you find yourself interested in architecture again. It's a good question going back into the mists of time. I was studying art history. This was at undergraduate. When i was at school at mcgill university in canada and i laughed art history but it's i felt troubled by the fact that it didn't really impact people in their day to day lives and i guess my attention became fixed on architecture. Because i was aware it's so shades and influences the fabric of our lives and our everyday experiences but often in quite a background way. We very often aren't aware of how much of our lives are shapes by our bill to firemen's and it struck me. This was something that i really wanted to delvin. Share and bring to the foreground and so you ultimately go into architecture. I did it so in montreal. Where i was studying there was this really amazing. Institution called the canadian sensor for architecture sooner the world's leading architectural libraries and because of the proximity of miguel to cca. I was able to start tear explore this subject greater taps and basically i was one of the leading programs in architectural history. At the time was actually at uc l. In london though. I came here to pursue my masters and then i carried on into the phd. And i basically never left the twenty five years later i'm still here s You must have gone through quite some journey in within your research. yes well. Unbeknownst to me. I entered the fields at a really interesting really dynamic time so this would have been the mid nineteen nineties and feminist theory was really starting to answer the fields of architectural history in a serious way sir feminist theory also queer theory post colonialism and because architecture is a profession it tends to be a bit more conservative or was in the nineties. A little bit slow. I would say in picking up on critical theory but in the mid nineties i this sort of inflection of critical theory in sioux qatar was well underway and so i was coming into it with this interest in every day in firemen's the bill fabric and this was exactly the moment at which kinds of questions were beginning to be quite seriously examined within the discipline so i decided i was very interested in in the built environment so i decided that i would write my dissertation on. A public toilets poker. When did they first begin to appear in london streets were they were seized. What kind of controversies surrounded them. And because i i thought well you know if i want to see the impact that gender has had on the built environment. What better place to look than a female public toilet and it was in fact incredibly rich and interesting study which came out of unknown. So what did you find the time. What were some of your conclusions. so i'm female. Public conveniences probably not surprisingly. We're not a regular feature of london streets and tell the end of the victorian era the beginning of the oregon era they were hugely hugely controversial. Nobody wanted them in anywhere near their homes or businesses but of course they were really essential because at the time there were many female workers who are commuting to and from factories to from their places of work often quite long commutes and they had nowhere to go and so became a cause. Celebre and george bernard shaw. The playwright among others ended up campaigning for female public toilets. I suspect he did in part to urinate His more conservative council members. He was He was a member of the local government at the time but nonetheless. This was one of these very odd incidents in history where the campaigns for female public toilets brought together a really unusual coalition a coalition of reformers and those interested in women's rights and to try to improve women's mobility within a city. So was there like a need for women's mobility the time oh was society still dominated by men in the workplace in a nestle thing again. Really good question. The reality was that women were moving around the city especially working class women as i said many of whom were commuting to and from job abs paying jobs but at the time there was this prevailing ideology of the separate spheres which maintains that women's place was bloom and so by definition. Somehow a woman moving freely through the city was on anomaly. Potentially threats women mobile women were regarded with considerable suspicion favor seen as potentially more all they were sometimes even called public women prostitutes because of this freedom. They were enjoying suit to move around. The city and public toilets became suspect because they enabled that free movement. That's very interesting So would you say that is an inflection. Point from public toilets becoming widely present in society or in in in the seas was there an inflection point to of how architecture changed to accommodate the woman during the victorian era it was very common for architecture to be highly segregated and i should say it was not only segregated by gender but it was segregated by class as see red have tradesmen's entrances Man you would have the official public entrance to a building. For instance around and over the course of the twentieth century that kind to richard segregation began. Sa- breaks down buildings at least outwardly. Under the influence of the modernist movement became more egalitarian. in appearance. So a really classic building. I would sign in. This regard is a royal festival hall friends. Stones which was designed as part of the nineteen fifty one festival britain. A not was very much designed as a building for all the todd black It was designed along the idea of something called the Condenser so it was meant to be a place that would bring together different elements of society encourage mixing which of course victorian buildings absolutely did not dare vapor designed on the opposite principle taking rich rigidly segregate different elements of the population. So i do think at least outwardly. That kind of richard segregation Eased but that is not to say of course but the built environment is a Harian place i would say. Mechanisms season has simply become more subtle in many ways the built environment is still very much a manifestation of power relations and it does still attempt to impose a certain kind of show order in society. The that's very interesting. So you mentioned that. The elements of seclusion in the built environment Osorno as opposed to being over Can you give an example of the so one example. I would give birth. Although i must have met. It's building. i love a nonetheless. The british library on road. I believe it was. oh kinton. The nineties But it had a long just station is designed by the architects call in saint john wilson and On the one hand it's meant to be democratic in welcoming building It has a public piazza in front. Survey you go through the doors. And it's really remarkable building with indoor's streets an indoor piazza so again. It's got this idea. Welcoming the puck lack and it it's meant to be a democratic space however the reality is is that surrounded by high walls in gates It's quite intimidating for those people who somehow understands that they are not meant to end for and it it is in fact a police space. So sh- hung has people often gathered right outside. The gates could turn actually entered into the precinct of a library because they know that they will be asked to leave on. There's all sorts of invisible. I would say here's in many public buildings that that may to clear to as for instance the homeless that they're not welcome. It's not a truly public space even however much it has that appearance that makes sense and so if something that i would have never considered personally you have not consider things from a architecture standpoint but that sort of leads me onto to think to ask you how. How has architecture evolved in so in the twenty first century how other key key so of themes that have emerged in architecture in the twentieth century in the uk for instance architecture is such a diverse profession. it's hard to characterise. You've got commercial. Buildings friends stones Which i would say where the client perhaps is speculated developer In the building will end up being lease to various corporate clients and that type of architecture. You know it's a fact of life. London a commercial city. I'm not type of architecture. I would say is more Aesthetically focused perhaps In terms of maybe smaller scale less profit oriented architecture which is quite different. I would say there's much more interest now in community participation architects working with neighborhoods Solicitor tried to create more responsive environments at a good example is a colleague of mine. Someone called yene line and he has worked with dozens of uk. High straits to try to Enhance them revitalize revitalized them but rather than imposing some kinds. If top down process he works with keepers on the local council really tries to create environments that Enhance the sort of existing next shopowners. That really tried to serve below co community. There's a whole gamut of practices within architecture and it's hard to characterise but the certainly the architecture that i'm most interested in is the architecture that tries a work very reflectively in an ethical way with community into witch they're intervening is that sort of taking is gaining traction at the moment where this localized i i suppose. Socially friendly is interaction is still having to compete with these forces of commercialization bean around since the sixties world yeah lurk commercial forces are not going away. We live in neo liberal times. But i would say that. There is a very committed group of architects who are examining. The ways in which architects were can can work And are trying to act ethically And that to me is is an incredibly inspiring way forwards what perhaps has changed somewhat. Is there much more in step with the mood of the times. Where currently in this rather incredible time as social upheaval and particularly would be a lamb on. There are some very serious. Discussions opening up within architecture. Schools about racism are guitar. typically has been a very white middle class profession and people are making point very forcefully now that we architects will never be able to serve a broad spectrum of the population so long as architects though search at a narrow social class and so there are i would say that discussions around diversity are accelerating and intensifying and hopefully You know there will be serious efforts on the part of the profession to tackle the lack of diversity in a more sustained way Which is something. I i guess something. That is naturally going to happen given lack. You mentioned the social upheaval. But i guess the something. That's really interesting to me. M firstly with regards to social inclusion. Is you might have. People say actually will some of the most famous in the world. Why the like for instance the hadid was you know an iraqi female so architecture could be seen as that but what you're saying is still generally the just the. The outliers was an incredible force and She was the leave. The first female to win the pritzker prize. She was however for a long time. One of the very few so called stark attacks Who was in the profession. There were a few others a very well known female architect called. It's zico has to go. Fifteen of miami school was christine hawley throughout the nineties. Who practiced with sir. Peter cook one of the founding members of our crime so there there were some prominent women in the field by factor main that intel very recent. Play only about thirteen percent of registered architects. Were women because there has been concern about the underrepresentation of women in architecture since the mid nineties i would say that we have definitely seen some movement bear but we have a long way to go in terms of bain an enhancement minorities where we're really falling down And i i suppose it's not too dissimilar to many other fields. Why i'm interested in of no kind of exploring his. How do you think this pandemic is going to shape architecture for the foreseeable future. Given the fact that there's loads of unnatural things are artistic previously natural things happening for example the social distancing and people's reluctance to cough in public. Or you know sneeze and that sort of stuff. How much does that impact architecture. Do you think that's a great question I hadn't thought about it quite in those terms. I hadn't previously thought about coughing friends and architecture as you know in the twentieth century has always been a very concerned with high chain ans- and health and actually this was really one of the preoccupations of modernist architects people. Lie the kirby and so on the white a static that they adopted for their buildings inner it was mainly symbolic of course it was meant to symbolize the ratification of dirt. Z's so the modernist really appropriated this whole hygiene Discourse in their buildings Whether or not about will happen now or how it will happen is is really interesting to think about again. Some of my colleagues are doing work on pro biotic buildings so they are actually looking at how you could Implants surfaces with probiotics auroral. Yet here is so those so called good bacteria homes so that you can you know improve public health through buildings in that way. There's lots of really interesting. Research going on between architects and biologists chemists Considering microbes. Looking really at our environments through the lens of house. So i could see that being the kind of direction that opens up even more over covid otherwise in in terms of public buildings for instance i could see just changing the configuration of buildings to make a greater emphasis sprints dunstan entrance ways of creating spaces for queuing it. If that is going to be a feature again should i call it. Our covid futures You know there's no question that it will start to change the way buildings are planned. Unladen our the fascinating. I mean these are some fascinating insights that you know. I didn't even know a possible with appropriate. For instance this mind blowing stuff. I'm conscious of time. Because i know you've a bit to do but i want to ask you about your work. Honeymoons that seems really interested in. And i wanna hear more. I grew up near niagara falls which is considered or wise when i was growing up the honeymoon capital of the world. And you know how it is when you grow up with something. Even one of the great wonders the world's at your doorstep he's sort of come to think of it as a bit boring or you for granted been then when i moved to europe And when i started to study architecture. Niagara falls is a honeymoon destination. It just came to seem seem author an author to me and and moreover i was very aware that there was no equivalent plays in europe. There was no place that everybody went to on their honeymoon. Except maybe italy or something like that. It just wasn't the same. So i got very interested in how disapp- become so ritualistically connected with a moment a great sort of moment in people's lives and how than does a tourist industry get built up around it including honey her towels honeymoon suite's again in. In what ways does architecture. Kind of enshrine These practices and it. It did really interest me because architecture i think is great at scripting environments and in somehow it in its walls or in its features it's in certain narratives and it gives us queues as to how to be. Hey that does not mean that people always follow this cues and in fact. I'm rest interested in those moments where people miss becuse or nor the keys or just choose to not follow them. I do believe that people have agency and adults environment. So i don't think architecture determines the ways that we behave but it's suggests ways that we should be and i always just thought it was some very poignant s- died on a honeymoon when you're with your partner perhaps for the first time you turn to these architectural environments that sort of help you understand how you should be feeling how you should be behaving at this moment in. It's like the architecture becomes the proc That's really interesting. I mean it sort of raises a couple of points With regards to how we all the say we How couples when they are on their honeymoon of interact with the environment. And so you have for instance right now you have In recent times the maldives has become this hot spot for honeymoons and the of manufactured island. And and you have equivalents in dubai. So how much of this. How much of that is also planned onto these human emotions these innate feedings of like needing seclusion or something. Like that and i. Those are very good examples. I think people at these moments these these really key milestones in one's life so getting married it. You really want to enter an environment if you can. That will protect you from certain safety. You know what kinds of experience want so you go to a place where you are going to. That's going to conform your expectations Society's expectations of white you will experience posts wedding. It's like i. I see it almost as if you're trying to ward off the risk failure because to fail on your honeymoon has such powerful emotional consequences. Nobody wants to deal with that. You try to head off by entering a manufactured environment that is going to deliver White you feel should be delivered. But that's really that's really powerful so it's like you're almost trying to guarantee your return on your investment absolutely except it's it's not just financial it's emotional. Yea exactly there's pressure being placed on at moments and in the nineteen days All of these advice riders would say things to newlyweds like a mistake. Now is a mistake of a lifetime so with that kind of pressure being placed on year. You absolutely do not anything to go wrong. Wow this is really fascinating. that's amazing. so where if people more interested in in your work where can people find you online and interact with your work. I'm not terribly good on social media. But i am a regular contributor to a really wonderful online journal hauled places journal. I think it's a really remarkable a publication because it's devoted cpap scholarship on architecture. It supported by architecture schools around the world's Including mayans school the bartlett ans- it produces released thoughtful really provocative pieces on urbanism. The landscape are attack shower pretty s- great photographic essays Some creative writing I try to publish their as much as possible. Because i really believe that. Scholarship shipping open access. And too much of what we produce nowadays is hidden behind walls again. I think given where we are right now in the world that i strongly suspect out will change dramatically in the next few years but Yeah i it's a magazine that i'm very proud to be associated if you send me a couple of the the the ju- the pieces on there are linked to the onto the show so that people can get access to them instantly great i. I'm what kind of advice would you give to. Anyone of getting into architecture architecture research i would say i i always feel funny about giving a device because i still feel so much like. I'm sorting things out myself. But i would definitely say. Think about the user. That would be my main advice. You often in architecture school. You're told to think about form or you're told to think about materials or aesthetics and i think my main criticism of both the profession and education is that the user is considered too late in the as the kinds of Afterthought whereas i believe the users should completely derive bang that are tax. Do you can still make really interesting architecture. But just put the user at the hearts of your designs. That's i think. I think that is fundamental. I mean that's that's advice that i've heard a few times from like software developers and and all sorts of people that actually i'm trying to be appeal to the individual as opposed to the ego which tends to be the case. Yeah i really agree. And you know look architectured. The special challenge is that architecture tends to be around for awhile. So architecture uses change all the time so building may started off as a church may end up this flat or a domestic residents who now is but nonetheless i i do think. That user centered buildings. Stand the test of time. He even oddly if stat use changes because they will have been somehow humanely designed barbara. Enjoyed speaking to you. Thank you so much for joining me. And i hope to have you here soon again. Thank you i enjoyed. It is just like to take a moment to kind of remind you guys to subscribe to our show. An oprah cost platform and youtube as well as instagram. You can find all these links on. Www dot the no show dortmund. Join us today. Be the research revolution.
Guest: Rees Williams and Paul Perebjinos
"Appropriate next network production welcome to the fly racing Steve Math is show presented by maximus tires and Alpine stars protects on racer x online dot COM dot com but your continued support of our sponsors the original Modo podcasts featuring ends of the past stars of today season previews and race reviews introspection opinion backs and laughs here's your host suits you and as always in richer modal lifestyle by working with the sponsors who support US supercross yeah yeah I got one I got Loretta Lynch title to off over here absolutely so thanks for coming in appreciate it this will come out Steve Mathis and now as promised on the fly racing racer podcasts guys in the studio to really talk about iconic brand in the industry and and much more and we'll get right into it a happy to have a reese Williams all the way from the UK he's out now developed by Jerry mcgraff rental rider and used by Darwin supercross and thanks to Alpine stars as well tech seven I went riding today and my tech seven zero a good friend of mine recently made the jump to rent doll you know from the pro taper guys from any years former factory mechanic he's got national championship which is complete bullshit Australia yeah absolutely so thanks for making this podcast happen as well and and everything everybody else for listening appreciate it so all right I guess let's start with you Paul right away you're in we're in the studio and the lines yeah not falsely right so thanks for coming in thanks for coming over you're coming into watch the Monster Monster Energy Cup into you guys have always communicated with and honestly there the brand that I've strived to make kind of get pro taper on the level of they've always set the bar as far as product quality and through the pop show but you're also going to come in for the pop show that'd be fun can't wait to argue with jt on that should be a great time thanks to fly racing firing dot Com please check them out from new formula went to the evil gear to the boots fluorescents got you covered head to toe great guys great company and thanks to those guys are making podcast APP and of course Max Tires as well your tech seven God I would say they're great right aren't they I I just I put on tech tens when I started getting back into writing I'm like no too heavy things changing that I felt were going to inhibit me for to continue to do my job over there I have been doing it right so have had a way to do things and it's just been changing and I think that's all just a product of being stuck in that really big organization so it's a great thing that unlike a lot of people in ministry big jump big switch pro taper of course you do great things with that brand and and they're still going strong but you decided to jump over to I guess your enemy in a sense the same race teams forever I think there's a lot of things you can look to rent that are there an ex exception exceptional example industry of of of a company with integrity I it's not in my nature to to to bash anybody any way I think yeah like you said rising tide lifts all ships and to me raises all boats but so many people don't get that and it just blows me away I sit behind his microphone I say it all the time like man that's cool company like whatever they're cool company and they're cool company like and what's that sometimes can be difficult to live within that corporate environment so there's just a lot of things changing on that side and I saw I saw have one Paul perveen us what's up Paul what's up Steve I'm awesome better you don't some across but you do have a national those those got more outdoor wins than you know is the commercial director for rental what's up man how's it going to be thanks for coming in this time yeah you're listening this is yes so you're didn't know if I'd explain I was getting away from that right like I was a mechanic you where I mean I don't WanNa go to every single race anymore but still all my closest friends are the people at the races so I felt like really liked what I did it for a long time I've always been friendly with rental guys though I reese is a really good dude Tom As well Tom Wade over in England and those are those are the I felt like people would see right through if I try to do anything like derogatory towards rent to promote the brand I was working on just I think people would see right through it because is Paul talking about Tucker owning paper and everything else while Henry Rosenthal and Andrew Renshaw the original founders you know racing and it's just an iconic brand and I've always been a rent guy my whole life I was amateur support rental guy obviously rent they'll guy at pro circuit absolutely love them you wear textiles attack ten guy you gotta try seven's okay do you like the booties I do like the seven don't have the booties yeah this is after this time Pulitzer good thanks for coming in appreciate it you've been overall for how long sixteen is Geez awhile also in studio yeah and things are going well yeah they did much change now you've been there for sixteen years you said right eighteen sixteen sixteen years did much change okay you're based in the UK factories Suzianne all these guys ride I mean for the longest time I can only talk to my boss at pro taper about budgeting and costs I can bench race with these guys about designations and we every part of this whole thing with us switching my part of the whole thing is that so our body a mutual fund writing Belaid Canadian champion Yep went from answer Tucker Rocky property to rent to attorney here in just talking with those guys that I was really interested in and pro taper is part of a bigger organization so the Tucker Matt Organization and and when I was a mechanic so it was it was a tough transition for me transitioning in Pro Taber but I really liked what I did there but there was just an everything else that much change for you pre-sale and post sale in the company like is more freedom now staff Budi I don't know why I used to like it but now the tech center like just the very first one came out with wasn't the best engineer the new new version hinge so well yes bets on who's going to win each weekend so it's so cool to be at an enthusiast brand yet is she be third overall yeah and trust me these guys were blowing up my phone as soon as work with aftermath in pro circuit I got Vortex Board I had you on board just one of those things man and it goes it goes to show yeah and honestly I felt like I was getting a little far away from that so when the opportunity rental came it's it was a really good opportunity for me and I'm back with a company that loves loves racing my we were texting on the last lap and I was like polly for you guys but but that's honestly one of the coolest things I fell I also felt that pro taper I was getting is it did Henry and everybody else get back kind of to be more creative or how you know what this definitely there's more free that really cares about what they do in a really big thing for me is is you guys were just talking what you were talking about the Star Boo recent enthusiast. Tom just go around and tell everyone how rental sucked forever garbage products because that's what we do in the industry so many people do you just like hey man we're all in this together a rising tide actress say you know what we're GONNA put pro taper on Honda now or whatever like I always wondered how are you going to cause competitions good and competitions a great thing and but with Jim Yep there's no one further up the chain to answer to after reporting sue Yup send reports figures on a monthly basis all that kind of stuff so I guess if the stupid decisions we can only blame myself right we have to deliver that yeah but that freedoms gooden's exciting and it's Rented handlebars inspires rent the paper and I think most everybody does so why the jump yeah I mean for sure it's those two and I I'm GonNa Jab either one you know I think that's GonNa you're GonNa get a lot of material culture but I still tech with Randy I mean I like I said this is a job and besides of each brand that we we tried to maintain our identity and not step on each other's I always looked at it as a drag race personally I wanted to try to the rocky right yes so we're independently-owned again when you're part of the group not happen in two thousand Eighteen July twenty eighth so we've just gone past twelve months of that obviously if you're trying to grow your brand and grow your business you're going to take market share from wherever you can't but I wasn't going to ever do it by cutting into somebody's lane especially sister come back for sure Cathal sold to the group in two thousand and six hundred six thousand six it was bought by Tucker one point rental was owned by it was a tricky time for sure I'd say so you back you know independently and it doesn't seem like you guys really missed a beat I mean really knows being a been a great start we did like how where's the where's the innovation and who's going to be favored is probably GonNa be favored because it was you know an original well these these points of discussion these paid and vice versa and it was crazy we're sitting in meetings together I'm in the meeting with recent Tom and I'm the pro taper did you actually have meetings together Oh yeah Dell's such an iconic Paul you're you're like what can I really say about him except I mean you know they had race teams of they've support taper rental like okay so example factory Honda Factory Kawasaki Forever Rental For one hundred years now does does Tucker somebody at time Karake along with paper and now of course sister companies absolutely right which is funny how that all comes around and then so now Henry and some other people put together and purchase it back okay yeah yeah we're looking at each other sales and stuff and it was it was it was very much pretty close but I think it's a testament to the people that were in charge fifty nine and it started by making handlebars for for the trials by Actually before that before nine hundred sixty nine they made their first handlebars so when they were we're just aluminum it's so funny there yeah you guys say that yeah yeah so with a aluminum tube that's fine what's what's amazing to me so I didn't realize this is going a little bit through the rental history I remember John Like nineteen ninety-five that's what I remember rental it was on the Honda Bikes and I'm like when my best US sales wise great to have off the back of doing that you know that that transaction coming out of that group so yeah it's exciting me we've never really respect the pro taper we still do they still good things and respect for the brand new was just an awkward situation being in the same group and got pulled joining us and there's going to be exciting just drag you down now that'd be good so as far as you go back in the and I'm passionate about it very much I'm passionate about everything I do but there's no reason to sever relations now res what's funny about this whole thing to make those kinds of discussions decisions and try and find that space to work along each other you know not was there's four years that he was tricky I'm sure test aside you know how to deal with that right and then you know you're bidding on Geico Honda and you write them a check but then they can rent and he always had a bit more aptitude for mechanics on the bars Henry was more interested in the riding really anyway fuse later thousand run the field as teenagers and that was kind of eight for us and then few years down the line that kind of you know they they done the Henry Rosenthal and Motivated you WanNa get things happening so I mean I'll be honest when when I heard that you know rental was maggots you wonder which if you went we went through John Through with management discussed how we're GonNa do this hide we live in the same grew right hide we get off that same space amnesty touched on earlier wants rental you know what I mean like and it and it was silver so you knew it was a little different than like a like I didn't know kind of materialize younger back then I'm like I don't know aluminum right who who would do that Ryan trying to figure out how to keep str- straightening and they knew that wasn't a good idea to be sharing their bows but they were young kids didn't have money for replacing them and Henry's so he said material fantastic they looked and said aluminium really anyway this is gonna be fantastic Ansi an uncle they actually had a an aluminium stockholding company or materials Tokyo and company and they had some Aluminium Chiba leftover from worldwide a how he's now working approach he's doing your job yeah now you and Randy delayed our mortal enemies we're allowed we're best friends it's going to be great but yeah so direct them over to to Tacoma Ben these handlebars and they were the material was that strong it broke a couple of their aerials bugging from the little to Akron okay in and he was lying or I'm not doing anything happens to be the same diameter twenty two point two millimetres as our no way okay so it was like yeah some of the most advanced materials come out of industry anyway they may eventually made handlebars and they were using them on the bike trail you know with you know AH polishing in the UK school brosseau traditional method Polish and that's high they originally started up in two thousand or something like that how ironic would it be that the World War Two aircrafts use exact same grade that handlebars are right Israel fee and they and how are we going to bend it and they had a you know this this data compass company they supply to okay which the you just sort of kicking the ties and you know what we're GonNa do kind of thing and just talking about things and whatever happens is handlebars I think they could have been we could probably sell it is late sixty s early sixty nine eight sixty nine and trying to find someone to stock or by some these but actually goes further away further back I mean realize that into into trials into into flat tracking all that well actually we're we're celebrating our fifth year in business you say rents has been going fifty s and nineteen so they you know they took some more of it back then they were cutting into length and they were they were bending it trying to get by the nightside supplier polishing it so many products iconic products whether it's starbucks or whether it's a quick an adjustable teenagers Henry trials bars modal Bar I don't even know back or what was the need you know what I mean well the need walls they were crushing their bikes uh-huh wants the first bit of sponsorship that doing an along with an local shop Jim Sandiford He managed to manage to get Jim Sanford perch so many products when you see them you're like why didn't they always do that this is the best thing ever and I think ending the handlebars they hadn't got their their skills the right level headed to match the cameras so they were scrubbed in Henry Goldens students rail cod on the train systems and rent ranch defined few motorcycle daily you might say yeah but not this high strength aluminium shape what's is it is a seventy seventy five back then to or whatever whatever the greatest it's it was an age grade okay stotts get to know the top trials right is at the time you know you're Martin Lampkin 's and you know Malcolm rational kind of guys and they he starts convincing them to you Andrew already this was them together gather buddies riding bikes and Joe is a bit more who became and use the engineer in the company the major players I mean how many how much of the market and rental have together probably ninety over ninety s and okay so when people are ninety percent like and they're at the same company you wonder ends but Henry this point he's riding trials to reasonable level low in the Manchester area where he's where he's based excuse me and he seattle straight in the bars with right like I remember I always raced with steel handlebars on my CR eighty I I liked the steel ones yeah it was a long time back a big challenge get pushback low resistance and they've got to convince people that these these Baas good enough trials back there a bolt on the bolt on the process. Yeah Yeah and because of course you can't Welding Aluminium is is difficult Yup weld in the cross brace there is just not a very good idea hugh though so they go back on the phone the antion com yeah we still got that material somewhere no one in this era sliding around growing up through school like that aluminum's had greats like I I didn't know grades of aluminum aluminum to me right but you guys at some point menthol start saying these seventy seventy five a few different iterations around how we come together originally host clamps are probably the I wanted to bolt system top Benny and ahead of parents and it's Henry Rosenthal and Andrew Renshaw ran ran from Russia on they put the name I remember seventy seventy five is common yeah we don't actually use that grade different grade but yeah you guys use put the grade in the ads the the best grade they could cause like for handlebars quite you're asking the law of the material you want superstrong Yep but when it starts idea so how do they settle on the great eventually I wonder they just move with the development I imagine uncle and aunt's supply when try at some point ride bikes you you'd probably sometimes use those I won't drop over and they'd be yeah everybody's dad had the old pipe ars back then or the steel exactly heavy ass thinks well this is a lighter handlebar here no it's not going to be strong so there's a big ah immediately they were like these are these are lighter stronger which seems so obvious now right right now you'll have had bikes in a grownup right I bikes came still handled by to pay for an older upfront all pay deposits today Shane to nothing and and that's kind of how it starts in the greenhouse in the shadow of that's kind of cool yeah yeah the joke was rose insurance too long I forget yeah exactly right and that's it and then yeah you know you I'm on the handlebars over the steel ones that bent when you simply fell off the stand they would bend you're always like why what are you guys doing why wouldn't you do this from the they know what you're looking for yeah he always asking for something always asking for more Yep Yep now you guys routinely test your grades that you get all the time we test lab yeah on site so everybody material that comes in this is this is a I've I've been I've been able to check this out and this is something that I I was thoroughly brace on the handlebar so that's when they get into scrambling yup you stop talking to bow his across brace okay and so then that started the answer past one thousand podcast delivered with over seven million downloads clicked at Amazon banner on pullbacks help us out and donate the Patriots you can weaken the Bob I say this the bolt on cross brace what how many iterations they went through that you know what I mean of the different materials for that there was there was feed-back push to to a warm peace you know don't hang beneath 'em and so I wanNA thank rent for teaching me sure okay right now we're looking for some of the really high strength really good along Gatien difficult to foster because usually when you find something super high strength it said becomes more and as a kid I'm like I'm sure like seems good right but I was always like Hey dad well what does this mean he'd be like there's different grades and I'm like Oh I know I know the eventually moved onto think British aluminium back then and I started having supply from that yet I think they're always pushing to have the the bugs Yup and I think to certain extent that worked but like rods didn't like it 'cause he'd carshield though yeah people wouldn't wear knee braces thoroughly impressed with and if you're ever in the in the UK maybe we get you go round one for madly base in new orders ever in concert and Manchester will absolutely need to come by and check out because yeah well I think there was actually some tie bars somebody made him back and I know there was tai spokes bike one time but those hang out yeah so that's the magic formula British Geisha Yeah Yeah so it's really a magical which bars right when you think about it we don't know the band when you reach eventually reached that point when you went to band you want to bend a long way Moyer four breaks and you can maybe ray so we call out the gate yeah right right and as the great has changed his materials developed right you know we we work with materials supplies you push them to develop in different units Jason and they just start doing it and then they obviously they make a name of the trials world and the next comes motocross across the but not pointing this stunt it's just a gripper seat covers why didn't we do this before this is so obvious and rent likely right live in their ads was that it was the seventy well actually seven seven zero nine two two four was the first what's seventy seventy I had a little bit of flaming kneepads maybe best and they'd catch their knee on the underside of the bar in turn they were pushed that from I was thoroughly thoroughly impressed with how extensive rentals laboratories are in their tests yeah test equipment I mean hundreds and thousands of dollars of equipment laying around to just a test material before you ever start bending I was introduced to that a crop of each I want to accomplish tour and they said yeah we buy our titanium going well and then that was then not really started taking it's the next level in the US Jim was always just a distributor as he was he was the importer. Don't care yeah so AH biggest market okay so we were not starting to get the racing success but the but the sales were there because typically European companies don't you well good point when you look at Yoko or you look at companies like that like yeah they never really were in guys are often running and now you know you're you're winning supercross championships and motocross championships everything else but the back then the US markets still wasn't is not we can't just trust us we need to make sure that this is all we take it seriously handlebars safety critical component on the cycle and yeah we pitches how in the hell and maybe you don't know this put you on the spot here like why would you call that thing the nine seven one how did that happen a distributor with that point called Alan Greenwood and then where were they at where was he at you remember the West Coast Guy Yeah West Coast West Coast and I think that was connected to Nabi shopping not okay but then he really started coming in then when Jim Hill and who who's doing Akzo got involved it'll trials Charles Martin Lampkin bumpkins father okay I was very I will championship first motocross champion one thousand nine hundred and so at some point the I imagine the factory I in America and I don't think some of that's just dying to the a proper understanding the different things look so things look rj starts around him in eighty six. Yeah I think Ricky Johnston was pretty instrumental because not that point not whole home the team wasn't usually cajones to use them he wanted to use so yep yep I guarantee if we call right now tell stories for forty five minutes yeah for sure yeah Oh that's yeah and then the every batch material that comes in we pull it up yet so we can we can check the performance of material so rental gets Neil Hudson on Wasi and by the way I you know it's it's so iconic so iconic that when people order bars from other companies and people are like hey I need a nine seven one convince people as they takes a long time and but from them to like the you know the sort of mid eighties James the racers are coming to rent though and being like we need you know it's it's it's going steady by that point not everyone sold on it until now you still win the world championship in which I have no idea by the way looking at official championship First World Championship how how does you know first motocross world champion when the nine hundred seventy five back then he was the importer we had our own sales team while he did the Renfro America and also had companies like Parts Unlimited Spahr for instance is also named Stuart I believe but people don't that you know riders come in come out but still the numbers that are always there it's almost like BMW's cart with renfrew so Alan Greenwood I think he retired okay and he recommended Jim Jim Henry and then they got together and they hit it off Yup Henry was told the time you know you'll never be successful in in the y'all really yes and here's why because of being British or because of the idea okay but when it came to fit the baas original equipment which was in the two thousand four model okay at in two thousand and three they both love handlebars Mike you guys would make Benz for special factory riders yet but but I always felt like a nine seven one was like a stock Honda way that's because Honda picked it is outnumber system for our partners and handlebar started at six hundred okay and guy went to nine nine nine okay on the front and the sprocket S- yeah we got a nine seven nine seven seven like that should tell you it's like saying you know I need to give me the big Mac any restaurant or whatever like that should tell you how I seventy four nine didn't cut it never cut it four nine behind left in the dust if you go to Manchester there's this number nine sixty four sitting up there couldn't be the bar for you history of how they're naming their cars everyone remembers it so correct me if I'm wrong though but like I thought so you're saying like from whatever back in the day everybody kind of had their own bring like day four from fact Yonder and then the Bulls Star has really Ronin do do you know the story about how they got into American Honda was I guess through the to Thorpe Gabor than those guys right shape yeah they the number popular nine six nine seven one nine nine nine yeah they they will be taking the next number little book they'd so are you telling me there's a nine seven so there was no Henry Andrew getting together and being like hey what's your favorite number there's nothing magical about the nine seven one is such that the numbers the clarity the in Japan and they knew they'll stop the bar we all right so they picked that shape that's crazy I had no idea that there was so poor nine we went up to four hundred five hundred and difficult trying to keep up with them over the year slow dime I'm definitely there's more change every writer wanted something different yup the shapes were more all over the map we're trying right yeah nobody uses it it's funny over time like high people have settled on like the shape yeah it has and there will be yeah yeah there was a rando there is a F- wise we don't use any longer there was a folder okay anthology whether you're bend is what people ask for and when ordering another brand I I wish I had a more interesting but he's like we just had like a three brace position yeah and I think that was kind of what started it kind of reached a certain point in the kind of just settled down a little bit so it Henry and Andrew Seven one was going to Ricky Carmichael became and that one just never took off crazy yeah it's it's funny that people remember that right so like the nine nine six and it really came more formulaic like a like the nine seven one was like less sweep Yup more more upright high bar and that was just kind of right he's Bible the were when And I it might be the the nine seven two was for writer over here in the ninth you can time things look so similar actually so it's a different culture and you have to understand Sir Henry stood that and then he had distri okay I knew it was like the principle of redundancy so his thought was well if something happens to anything on the actor Tube dommage botanical donald or anything like that the times and I'm like dude you're issues broken there's no magic band that's going to help your wrist it's so to stop it but we've had we've had like really we actually just did a little bit of an inch McGrath because of our fifty th year old he was talking to that highly when he came in he wants to be further up on the buy in note and in the mid eighties and early nineties and all that one rental is really taking off I guess they're coming in they're meeting with these writers to determine what they want for a bend I would UN's all the way through and the cheap on the outside that you can see whereas taper obviously you know what I mean it's a single single wall construction ah those mechanic when those came out they changed the game also because the the protest without the crossbar bar and I don't I would guess the fat a stranger cross over the years it can be like minute differences in the handlebar which is a challenge to even to make Ria but we always you know always attempt to do and we just consider like what I mean and and if you want a crossbar you need a rental I don't know maybe maybe not maybe I think for sure there was there was a time that was the case Pichu right so what's the what's the thinking behind the twin wall it was really Andrews idea of just looking at it and try to take him principles from the aircraft you can't propagate all the way through the handlebar got an a hole boggling through the center yes it was a safety thing take him up principle redundancy from the aircraft industry okay interesting I don't Melby says well I almost feel like like if you want a crossbar less bar then you wanna pro taper because they did it back in the early nineties the jobs of course they're all seven eighths bars we're talking all the general size at some point pro taber comes out with the crossbar bar and that's are you guys came up with your own version in fact I would guess a fat bar for rental is not one of the top sellers right like yeah we we demand a twin well yeah the cross braced handlebar flexes more than a Incheon Eighth Handlebar without a crossbar Yep and he and he and and then it was an twin the twin walk between between law is different in the sense of there's two two two tubes in their right correct and then put on a pro taper and notice my suspend working better because I think it was flexing the bar was flexing and helping it helping coming into turns and you almost sometimes it could like the whole thanks thank you guys are arguing about this forever but there's no argument I've showed him lab data he thinks that a body Chris Kiefer who thinks that a seven eighths Paul's like no here's the data and he showed him lab data and it's false because of the cross brace the policies the point where you're going to tell anybody about you and Kiefer's forever debate about anarbor Strang Oh no it's not the point but we can I mean if you thanks John and I believe in science science I can tell you that I've put on myself when I raced I put on crossbar bar missile boat so hey hey news coming out you're a few times per year that point two three or four soup across the test track as you say I would be like ride as saying hey what's is that the one in eight and that changes the game you know you gotta get by mounts and everything else you guys stuck with seven eighths for a long time in a with a crossbar twin law was just a really some writers like like the experience of the bracelets Blah like I like I think it's right at some point they're like hey let's go to Jeremy what he wanted to ask you what do you want to yeah and I'm the request that kind of feedback to the faction. UK's I yeah I feel like we've Dr Jump to try and Change Research and now we have you know we re don't push our rights to one or the other yeah I remember is like early nineties when I was just getting everything and I was McGrath Henry Fox Honda Fan Right I was riding Hondas myself so yeah you can see them in the ads I don't know I've got some regret they're looking at it differently I got different data I haven't got an email to me yet but up another incident when keepers wrong about something and how his crazy mind thinks that correct and sign is he on he's on he over here and in all three titles yeah yeah which is crazy thirty gnarly honestly cannot think we've been racking ourselves here I can't think of a brand this photo some of the greatest ads and I mean we were just talking before in ninety three you want every single championship all the one twenty five supercross disregards motorcars if a writer wants to use a fat PA PROBLEM WITH THEY WANNA use a twin will no problem with that fact you ought to use fat bars for a couple of years outdoors go outdoors they would rather fat bar indoors would be that can claim that they've done that that to me is the coolest stat ever that I'm going to try to remember and say in every sales presentation here's but yeah but yeah Accu Martin's Jeremy McGrath Jimmy Gatz Mica drowsy grab albertine Michael Rocco Doug Henry was east supercross and motocross champion ear and then the only guy I don't know is the guy who won the a switch from FM for ever and also they went to to rental you know so that was a big deal yeah it was and I think there is there is even the good really they she us to build on like younger people in the company of come on later yeah he'd have that back catalogue to build from it's just being it's it's amazing Ronda version of the rental sprocket for a while there was for the wall yeah different shades different pattern oh no yeah just just Honda there was a different PA- because rental you always can I try something that's three mill lower three mill on you might make it sends a Nike t the race that doesn't work stick with you look of it or it can be the combination of to what what what what what are you what are your twin will be my Go-to yeah the crossbar are you guys over here like they do I mean Jim Strength and what they reset doing was take a sprocket for instance back then there was doesn't anything cool about it keeping them as a mechanic yeah number one of my writers Shell go nameless Islam's Hirschman Sherry had a wrist injury and he's any change bars the reason why I wanNA crossbar is not because of so much of the performance of the handlebars just I'd just like to look at you like that's why I like to look at no I'm I'm with you I like the look of it I'd seen now and then there was hired we hired we take some the no one else's you know incident and how do we make it cool how do you make it desirable volume World Championship Pedro drager track don't know him yeah that's the coolest stat to me to to claim yeah just just those ads I think did a lot for contributed only think of the the roundup sprocket the there was a Honda Specific Honda sprocket rental for awhile I remember this just because I just I was I was at that young age is along with the racing and you know those guys working on it that really held renfrew like in the nineties and in the early nineties Japan was biggest market believe it or was it was the biggest think is a lot of people to look in wonder sprocket come up the early early nineties ninety rockets come out yeah I remember that that was a big deal because thou cool glove got gardening gloves just like that Oh wait a minute no it's way bitching credible mocks is Aaron just did a fantastic job and that's really Yup Houston the Akzo ads as well unbelievable you have some yeah we've such a great history yup look back on his old odds and he just over the years it's just been such a making the rider comfortable is is is our job as assertive and if you can just even if you even if he is actually making a difference is in the right of think yeah and he was a local tuner right he started importing rental around eighty six and he was at the Canadian distributor for rental way back then and we're like we had them distract I gotta I gotTa give a shout out to I live I'm from Winnipeg Canada and the the the local shop their wheels west run by gun Roy born yeah it was and then I remember guys before like you guys switched from the cloth pads to like the shiny ones and that was he back then yet blew everybody's wig ah tried to get one so long privateer griesbaum mechanic for hybrid well and you guys came out with that and I'm like I gotTa Get that pad and I was like nope that can't get away you can't give them away we don't have that many home you know I mean like Styrofoam or whatever that is whatever that foam is and then around that time you guys built them up bigger denser like they actually provided some protection originally me off but I build these bikes built three of them already and all the Internet you stupid forums and on Ebay and all these finish stuff you guys need to bring back those cloth pat mean they would they took a pad that was to go rhino pipes like he was heating okay a. and the managed to find in like in a in a gauge it would fit the cross doc and really not America's still wasn't nearly ninety s he was Japan during the nineteen thousand switch I came over and he was really those years that we really went from strength like everyone had him on an area but I so that's maybe my sense of I couldn't believe I didn't get that strong until then because they were everywhere because this distributor guy the things grow organically but even like like I said like like you guys changed the game with the handlebars and and the bands and everything else then you change the game with the bar pad game too because I remember being like that was a mechanic then I'm like this is so much better than what everybody else has a bar I mean he was neon colors changing you bob pick them up for who knows what official Canadian guy forever so it's kind of funny it's not we didn't they weren't sells it was there you know you know actually can see they'd done that over and over with Akzo the concrete dude it to rent for Denver mechanics where they took a work Ryan cares about so appropriate right there it's definitely I may have gotten I had a connection but yeah bring back man I'm telling you that I want a small chunk sales because it's I'm telling you you could sell a lot of them a lot of them we are with this watch this space okay knock off ones but the no no the as we've had chrome ones also lopping real Dave Dave skyser still rathore right I told cosmo this a long time ago he probably just thought I was crazy conventionally I got one from j bone desperate here are awesome and even even the even something stupid as the bar pad you first ones were just styled when it gets hot aluminium does is extremely flammable basically this dust extractor exploded and then actually like a giant blow tool oh that like made a suit on the site and that gave him a little bit of space and then like they managed to get into buildings on the same industrial park and it really kind of break right so that's what he was more than gays than than the actual quality you know they were working with you what they had available then you know the the there is a demand for it I mean he was a really tough time for the business but luckily they dachsie just they were just expanded and they just bought another building aimed cheaply made well the demand for evil bikes now rock absolutely there's no ninety nine eighty nine one is not so just say we've been trying to find one for project work weaving stringing together when ourselves we know that fulfill what is the fire ahead remember something cycle news about the sad part is is probably all the history that went with it as far as files or original products more people come to faction and they really expect to see almost like so of T. Metha- I mean it wasn't just like a small fire it oh I was a real like a start like how not to find ninety nine. Am in the morning on a Monday or jazz something machine every okay to Paul workforce when she was a heated fire like immelt the beams steel as they all melted down the whole building is just absolutely at night or is this it was Mike Bosniak the by product back in to enact a real good advertising we actually get in the back and it proved that we end of companies don't recover from Oh really really heist is really the odds are against you and I think you know Hanje Redone about it for you know are two thousand two thousand two thousand wipes the factory out it completely wipes the are you there yet or no us three pad we start thinking well we can get this custom made for south to a certain volume eight other cereals dot com you can check your materials thinking well how do we make this better has asked the time yeah but looking back with a brand new factory in two thousand yeah yeah yeah and they build bigger he was better than yeah kind of you know he was twelve months of really struggling around and trying to keep people go and we read it and have any product it was back in the time to go the fewest price levels of after yeah so what what it was those aluminium dust extractor foon they polishing in the handlebars British Library Really Yep destroy on from that point the companies set telling me go back into that we're always looking forward we just don't have a lot of history room like you've got memorabilia and we don't have anything now Henry to room with every magazine he'd ever kept them nine hundred sixty nine yeah I'd like that time nearly now we're going to that that's that's Jim hailed air right those ads those ads dot Jim Hill and Dean Josiah okay are with the rental dating myself you know it is Steve There's a championship bike. In the foyer of rental this is the funniest yeah because those things are like crack cocaine like someone would be like hey I got to I got to I got a purple I've got a blue and we were bidding maybe Johny longer yeah yeah yeah probably people there engages you've got more history on rental than we have on site told me you still some of the old are stickers though red and blue leaks sure how do we do this game over for us and they finally got past and really got the company back going again and he was it was it was tough there for a time going well but it yeah yeah it really took off in the in the mind I think the sport was booming that you know the short the peak of the school military but we need to check the tie so we melted down and we see what the components are to make sure it's compl- and I'm like what yeah so I imagine you got to do the same thing you're just like this vases you the same problems we have and I know we really have to do wow honey was stay was twelve months whole factor you had to be rebuilt and that's crazy looking back I mean there's Oy it's a PC Kelly I remember building that I worked for I remember Mitch coming back into the shop for year saying dolls asking for a bike we gotta get gotTa get a bike and I was one of the ones that help with together sitting in the show championship yes that's things come there's there's a tim ferry the twin ring sprocket that's what you're going to put steel with aluminum well I mean I was cool rockets they start writing California perhaps or Las Vegas today I heard some guy with a joker mail it the first time with grips like I remember when he grips it's like okay menthols main grips look at these things they're awesome they're tacky they last long they don't fall apart like the I look I don't I don't want to keep blowing here because you know obviously I love the guys at pro taper and vortex guys are on board and everything else but like you come out with grips and you just lars thanks to listen everybody appreciate it shadow to raise tech want to give a shout out to those guys Suspension that Malcolm Stewart won Montreal on last year Ben Lemay Using Race Tech Aguirre Jason Thomas Myself today when I went there by granting thanks to fly Racing Maximilian Stars from making it happen all right a few more things for you wrap it up here you know this about three times the number of teeth on an aluminium sprocket and also though the steel lasts longer it has to go rhino and three time yeah so a still front element at the time everyone was both about the color of year was that ninety one I think back to ninety one would we do for before for Grips Oakley now and shades of gray for the textures but like you guys did a great job with your grips right out of the box while it was a whole new concept I might need that have to get you know but again you do such a great job is that I can't tell you how many riders using other using pro taper or using another brand would rent build this display by off season dinner yeah we're going to build this yeah yeah communion they sell yet feels that many yeah more off road races maybe maybe I don't go to Khuzami Chris Blows Race Tech Jerry Robin Ray Tech pop nineteen to save with motor workers suspension work they'll in thanks for those guys coming on board of course fly racing fly raising dot com feel like Oh yeah right but we we also have Alameda still backing aluminium sprocket is what I don't even know if those mud groups do anything but they were cool to on the yeah you know we're all about being you know different yeah technical a whole angle and that's still continues now we know you know a grip with Kevlar in it the graphics are all peeling now but there's also I was probably pissed because I probably probably God damn I got other stuff to do dogs I'll let you know we have that and you know it it serves well but there's something to be said about a steel front sprocket aluminium rear sprocket his rare works well as a sat yep yep you know chain still works really well as a set so we have still spoke it if people want it and they're doing they really there's a show you what a great job with grams was grip for everyone yeah rather than just like having the imagery at their colors we had it in soft diamond fifty fifty and awful on you could choose your grip he was gripped technology and all about the technology in shades of gray he was anti color I had one rider two two I forget who it was might have been Kelly Smith they were just like hey I need that I waffle trimmed off just like come on dude ridiculous asked we've given you but if you're the nation's in Assen that's going to help you out there grips on their bike yeah like you just that happen all the time as a mechanic yeah we're sponsored by protein but I love these and you don't really see the grips when the riders so yep well we beat ourselves up on on launching new product we're definitely not the fastest company launching you probably don't have every year and L. A. Griffin and that was what everyone was raving about and we know about the content of the grip so he was about having a soft medium firm WHO's about having but which which you guys have said nine seven one where people like that's pretty cool well a big pile of rentals histories about like either being told you can't do that like slim and just looked in a paid the normal sprocket yep non one piece aluminium spread but the hot that dot the ideas obviously longevity still with aww by then yeah I yeah I I ran Scott Slim's forever but the main focus of the time was color you see that light gray that means saw when you see that dark dark gray that means firm right and how how and how you know when you're a company and you can determine your competitors Oh you put on your a mechanic to grips on contact cleaner because you're in a rush or hurry rental grip never exploded at the end never came out you know what I mean like you're just like okay cool I can put it on just yes we we can't claim the concept tackling the I didn't know medium firm different patterns in a tapered grip we'd everything you know that if these soft number one hour that had to be it still good to this day so even though he there's new materials on like a Kevlar is our bestseller how it is his best but how long do but a six is still up there Korea and we've we've always found that if you make the product of the ride is wont and it's technically good product yep that kind of makes his own fashion and that we some of these because when we developing grip so like it looks like we got it right fist time but that was years and development yeah probably was like five years to get in that right and we have a test of where are we going to bring Ostra Tacky grip which if you've ever tried because like it Lich Colorado's at his black it's literally your glove sticks to it yeah uh-huh we didn't claim the concept of that but the concept was I then we tried to put out our salon to improve it and you know we really wanted some of the the first you leave the other waffles but just the first one Oh my God yeah well you're dealing day to day the nuances of fish tied turn the grips inside iron and sprain Sovan onto to check for that I'm just really that development that long scale development program that we different different laying with the people I I always ask this question of people who come in who work with or started companies left we've recently we've recently just discontinued our leave a line oh yeah the first six months when the new bikes came and we would launch them in like month ten left with lows pull out a crystal ball to the future really is Chris Paul Peirce Venos- and a rental in the fly racing racer x podcast by maxis and Harry didn't take his age you should not be on the sale sites like hurry up yeah yeah for new product and get it right and then of course police fire before you were there but pro taper comes out with me hundred percent happy with it yeah so you know we could never get to the point where we pride ourselves on approach where pro rider can use it yeah on a Guy so that was a pro the flex product which had a lot of benefits and suit a lot of people we could never get it to where we were yeah that although the product kind of worked what didn't work for us we couldn't get them out fast enough okay so like everyone is a triple clamp you remember in the first talked all about rentals successes what didn't work for rental the clamp you guys just clamp and he got an upper clem for a we had a triple clamp yeah a weekend warrior can use it and they were just too many compromises in that product for us we couldn't get it we couldn't make one product and that didn't really suit us so I guess yeah you can't make an aluminium handle no one you can make colored grips everyone's colored when we launched the Kevlar grip the color of it never said you'll never saw always focused about going after like technological advancement right rather than the fashion the fashion so it's it's it's worked it's always meant economy when he's been telling me about that for a decade I mean that's that's what what he's saying that one thing I've already again I've only been on the job per maybe three weeks now we did have soft sellers of course there are saying Yeah Taber we had a a a range of bars that were custom made for our race teams and they were essentially all rental replica Benz where now Matt Rent Doll and I'm getting inside of the Ashby not challenge over the years you know it's like we really we really thrive and we can make approach for a race team and then that suits the the the guy in the war and it works for both yea and he's top top US Ryder right yeah we've we got we got lucky really the first year we started in by schools still still chugging along it is yeah still sell them yeah I mean gradually the Oh he's a move into science baas stock so the more the there isn't any of that there is no custom Benz it's all at the same thing that's on Cooper's bikes we could by tomorrow the old seven eighths things I didn't know we had a time machine yeah the last good idea trust me that's been our strategy and I guess there's some of those examples of portraits haven't worked bean case like that yeah Paulie starting device that you came up with we we we started working with the specialized team okay Nate Sam Hill and he won the world championship in the first year so very fishy of radio I chug on sweet yeah that was good and he does really interesting we got into that that market and we find particularly the downhill guys and the he used product for sure now is a gray in for us in for teams and we still see that silhouette today and what what what we've done is we've learned I mean not the the future is changing on that but you know if you look at the mini mini bikes and I will say there's a lot of this for us the street you know you've got and you sponsor some good guys though right yeah website not that long ago and yeah we sponsor Iron Gwen he rise up and this year and he's of kinross yeah exactly we we don't make price point product we you know we develop the best seven eighths handled the best fat bar when we make that and that's the Paula Geeky by you guys do to like in the early nineties mid nineties you you added the color to the end of the bars like the purple and blue and everything else that blue people's minds yeah I have a bike with Rand Paul bars in stem on it made me paid for by the way is more made me pay for it but yeah how's this going not product is on the back of what we've learned in philosophy being cycling when pedaling something up a hill and his life is possible the pros and that the T. people run the teams in the mechanics they all moto guys yeah and they were really pumped on our brand new it they all had we know trail by he's still a huge volume going through seven eight and cycling the rental got into cycling two thousand ten that's a huge part rentals business these days ah mashed his job up kind of faded right so it probably wasn't super easy to do only because it's a growing pile business we've been doing that for eight years now we religious been grown organically with that was on it doesn't but yes I got that drives that industry market it's reverberated this for you know probably developed and we've got products in the pipeline is GONNA be coming out shortly and it's you know yeah and and like you said like what the buying of the bars for this is the stuff that goes around on McGrath's biker and and we don't we don't make price point Ken Roxanne's by now you have the same a. and M. and not industries of very fast paced and it's really given us you know you know fresh motivation as well to bring on you pull for motorcycle Yeah Yup and they were instrumental in that's still that's continued in US great part of it so so Paul for you like you want hold on a little not a great idea you had a big part of that thing brought to the rental through a bath on a that's how gets into the tank okay so keeping the tank level keep rigged up like you get that smooth consistent long yeah that was kind of I guess more youthful energy and my experience my relationships and and and tried to kind of maybe switch up our marketing a little bit going into the Oh yeah interesting yeah I mean can you what's the next project bringing nobody listens to this you're gonNA tell us you don't give us the thought of another cool thing in the in the new structure of the company andries widow he's actually one of the the shareholder Oh cool so that's great and then like she still involved in the brand ups and they make him the neutral colors like Rand Paul did like you know what I mean they don't make them blue and red rent felt kind of set the trend it transformed people's thinking they love those guys sure
Diamond Sutra printed - May 11, 868
"Do you love music? Are you a fan of movies like Star Wars back to the future? Harry Potter Jurassic Park and more than the soundtrack show is made just for you. I'm David w Collins joined the each week as I break down the best moments in our favorite movies, TV shows even video games and talk about why the music makes each of these experiences, unforgettable listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts this day in history. Class is a production of I heart radio. Hi, I'm eve and welcome to this day in history class I show that uncovers a little bit more about history every day. Today is may eleventh twenty nineteen. Today was may eleventh eight hundred sixty eight. A copy of the diamond sutra one of the Buddhist teachings was published on seven pages of paper pasted together to create a scroll today. The text is considered the oldest surviving complete dated imprinted book, the diamond suture contains teachings on the Buddhist principles of not abiding and non attachment, and it's a key scripture in Mehanna Buddhism. The text also provides meditations on allusion. And perception the copy of the diamond sutra that was published on may eleventh eight sixty eight is not the earliest example of block printing. But it is the oldest book to include a column in that has a verifiable date. A column is an inscription at the end of a book or manuscript that provide details of the work's publication, the diamond suture was first translated from sanskrit to Chinese around four hundred CE in eighth century China printing with done with what blocks paper was made for mulberry or hip. Then it was dyed yellow with bark from Amer court tree. The text was painted onto tracing paper, which was put onto a wooden block. A Carver then followed the chase techs to carve the shapes into the buck. Then the block was inked in stamped onto the paper in eight forty five towels emperor Wu's on of the tongue dynasty suppressed Buddhism as China. Denounced a foreign influences and old confusion, and Talis ideas. Reemerged temples and monasteries were shut down and adherence were banned from practicing the ban was bowled back not long after it was instituted but Buddhism did not thrive as it had before. A monk named Wong. Yuen Lou originally. Discover Wong Gee's diamond sutra in Hong China in one thousand nine hundred he was in a place now known as the caves of thousand Buddhas a cliff wall with hundreds of caves carved out of it. He found the entrance to a secret library that have been sealed where there were tens of thousands of documents. It's not completely clear who and why the documents were placed in the library cave. Nor is it known. Why and win the cave with field shut. But in nineteen o seven British Hungrian. Archaeologist Mark RL Stein. Was mapping the silk road when he found out about the library after some negotiation Stein, bribe long into selling about ten thousand documents and painted scrolls for one hundred and thirty pounds by invoking Wong's, painter and sate, Sean Zong, a Buddhist monk and scholar who had taken a pilgrimage to India in the seventh century and was a translator. Translator of Buddhist scriptures. One of the documents Stein. Acquired was the diamond sutra. This girl is about sixteen feet or five meters. Long and ten and a half inches or about twenty seven centimeters wide. It's made up of seven pieces of yellow stained paper pasted together with an elaborate 'lustration on the first paper that shows the Buddhist speaking to a disciple an inscription on the scroll says the following interrelation reverently made for universal free distribution about Wong. Gee on behalf of his parents on the fifteenth of the fourth moon of the ninth year, Sean long that would work out to be may eleventh eight sixty eight it's not clear who Wong. She was. Or why he had the diamond sutra printed? But it's likely that monks used the scroll to Tanta sutra, and that printing copies of the sutra allowed for wider dissemination of the Buddhist teachings today. The scroll is located at the British library. I'm coat in. Hopefully, you know, a little more about history today than you did yesterday. And here's an additional note on really old books. Books have been dated back to the BC ears like the manuscript Bulgaria national museum of history holes which is more than twenty five hundred years old, but what should be considered a book is up for debate, scrolls and clay tablets exists. That are thousands of years old as well. Also, the international done Hong project is a collaboration that has digitized archaeological materials from done long and other sites on the eastern silk road. Keep up with us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook at TD, h c podcast. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you tomorrow. For more podcasts from iheartradio. Visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Are you following your passion? I'm Carla Marie the host of side Hustler's. Join me as we hear the story in hustle of people following their passion outside of their regular job side, Hustler's, listen and subscribe on the iheartradio app at apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Feminist Fairy Tales? Malorie Blackman, Kamala Shamsie, Rebecca Solnit and Jeanette Winterson
"I think we're doing our children a disservice by pretending evil doesn't exist and it seems to me fairy stories already. Good way of as ginette said presenting the container that safe space and place and and the beauty. I think for me as coming up because i absolutely adore fairy stories. The beauty of the most the way to overcome evil was in the initial character announcement. Welcome back to the vintage books podcast. I'm alex clark and in this episode on thrilled to talking to a plane. Writers mallory blackman combination the rebecca solnit and jeanette winterson these wonderful writers of all written stories for a new series of feminist retailing's vintage classics aminist revolution four provocative visiting and urging students they open fairytales remixed and revived. The children and mallory retails bloop. It has story blue blood communist. Shamsi retails the ugly duckling in her story duckling rebecca solnit retail cinderella in cinderella narrator and janette winterson retail. I'm clean wapo story over with compassion and three at that. This compensation is part of an online and with the british library. Vintage huge sense to them sharing the recording a blanket and drink and bleepers in some in some way to be grappling with this idea of the possibility of a fairytale as an active real nazi radical empathy of actually considering it from different angles and thinking okay so for example in in rebecca's retailing him cinderella that yes there are all these the stepsisters. We thought rapacious hideous cruel actually just went having their needs met once really asking themselves what they wanted out of their lives. How important was that for all of you. That's just to reimagine all the different participants in the fairy stories where we just see women. Essential protagonist usually Mallory i stopped with you because again. You've got this ambivalence non-picky not a new story. Well for me i. The phone part of this was saying around with the original. For example in the original when blueberry comes home and finds out that That his wife his new wife has gone into the room and he says i'm going to kill you now and then. She begs her out the sister to go and call to her brother so they can come and rescue her. An i have Nia has brothers in this but and and one of them who knows kind of what's going on in one who doesn't and thinking it's is. It sat playing around with Assumptions and perceptions that i love so much in in in the very so i think i think the beauty fairy stories from around the world is that they encompass all kinds of points of view will kinds of ways of telling etc Embiid's part of the reason. I think they endure. And i i sold for example someone today saying that creating ah retailing's a fairy stories perhaps Moves us away from the original and detract from the original. And i found a really interesting point of view because i thought but do unless it -obituates original inefficiencies. What we're doing here is creating the imaginings that sits alongside the original and as ginette said it's about the connection and the communication. It's about me. It's about kind of taking the folks for example and playing around them having fun with them. Why not and then sort of presenting a new ideas. And so i was. I wouldn't be very interested in doing a a cover version of something that was exactly the same as the original. Then why boorda. So if you're going to do a retelling ordinary imagination a reimagining you have to make it your own. And i think that's what i loved about. This allowed us to do that. But it's really interesting anticipating common ridiculing. We just have not on the original. I mean these stories. All kind of folk tales of consumer on the way they've existed in many versions and kind of the idea of original there might be for example the version the most famous at any point by hans christian andersen's ugly duckling for example book. But really they all kind of as genetic saying the archetypes. Absolutely i mean a i will be no these stories go to many different iterations but also one of the things you do. Adaptation is i think your asking people if they read your version inevitably. I think they're going to want to go back to the original as well. A lot of them syntax. You're drawing more attention to it And you know just to sort of pick up on what mary was saying. I think one of the things you'll do. We do adaptation. It can't be just for the sake of the has to be something you're doing. That is different while still honoring the original in some way and both way of doing that is to just shift focus. You know or or to to show a slightly different angle show with me with the docking. I was really interested in that relationship with the mother who i sits on the brings her into the world but that ultimately serve so abused for bringing the strange creature into the farmhouse that she does her back on her child. And i actually. That's a really rich and interesting thing and and the idea that that might obliterate the original is is such an odd one. Because you're just you you're creating different versions The thing that was already as you say a different version of something. That was already there rebecca. I wrote this four or at least with your great needs in mind. She's also devotee of your book. Men explain things to me that idea of actually hosting something onto someone to a younger generation to someone close to you without being tactic showing a different way of looking at the world through your work. How important is nasty. You know i did. I definitely did it for her now. Her younger sister. Maya fairytale and i'm working on it. And but yeah. But i also wrote because or after i wrote it. I heard from so many people who said fairytales have so much compelling magic etc but the principles in them are so terrible we want to to show to our kids said doesn't reinforce that men hold power women must get married and you know the outcome of what happens to me in mind is very important. What happens to all the rest of you who gives gives a damn those really interesting Trade it for myself hud. We work out what we love about fairy tales and keep it in. Let go what we don't and that felt like that was a big part of the job. And you know angela you know end. There's so many versions said you know these are stories that have migrated mutated endlessly and so they feel incredibly available of course are the feminist rethinking of a lot of novels and things the wide sargasso sea. Jane eyre and things like that but you know there is some maybe more aggression in taking ownership of something written by individual and something that's claimed of just composted deep into the soil from which will grow. Yes yes exactly. We have so many questions from from our our audiences. Thank you so much everybody out there. I'm gonna delay even to them. The question from felicity which is ensure any trading. When do you think the presentation of evil in these fairytales has changed from the originals. Your versions do you think that is evil in these stories is just interesting because that's always an interesting word to think about this. Net wants to start us off. Yeah i don't think we should worry about evil in the sense in. We have to deal with it and it is in there. Of course there. There is evil and everybody needs to face that there's no point taking a pollyannaish view of the world. The world is as it is. And if it's in those very stories so i wanted to look at the female aspect all is being greedy and controlling aspect which she just wants to conceive in a consumer society in the after yet of face it head on a managed the store the fairy stories. Really the most wonderful container for all the explosive stove. It will hold. And that's why we trust it. You know why we trust our anyway. Because it's the it's the container the and you can everything in there In a safe space and let it let it do its work and people can come away with it and not burn to death or or disfigured they can manage it and that is a great thing. I think that all that all its various versions allows but in the fairy stories. It's really there so we don't have to sanitize it. Bleach it or back off. We can handle it within the container of the tail. Is this just this. This is either that rates for example in mallory story and will do a stress there. Is this very great sense of menace of horrible things about happen. I'm really interested in what you say. That internet book. But it doesn't have to be sanitized. It can be led to be there even evening. If you're writing this for a very young medians they love it. They lou sheldon patriotisms. Maverick because i i do feel to be on this. That the fairy stories. I grew up with we're brutal absolutely brutal charles perrault etcetera and And they will cinderella story. I read for example the what but he took one of the assistants torture. He'll also foot wood fifteen and the assistant so toes off so Fit into the slipper blood gushing everywhere which the princeton notice and so forth and and in one of the many versions little red riding hood i read. She goes eight in the end. You know so. I do feel that is the. I think we're doing our children a disservice pretending evil doesn't exist and it seems to me fairy stories already. Good way of as ginette said that. I'm presenting the not contain that safe space and place and and the beauty. I think for me going up. Because i absolutely adore ferries the beauty of the most that The way to overcome will was in the initial character. Nine times out of ten. It was in your character and if you kind and if you try to be good and so forth then generally you. You overcame evil but it was very important to recognize evil in the first place and i do feel the recent The recent move in some children's films for example where you have you have your villains and you have your body's but they can't be dispatched as they were. When i was a kid they have to. They have to stumble and fall to their deaths or something has to happen is not as not that. They are dispatched by the the the pr the protagonist of the pace it somehow their own evil undoes them. And an yes okay. That's it that's a message. But it's also i think i don't see anything wrong with the message that says sometimes you have to sign up and you have to actively fight against evil and i do. That's why size versus a fairy stories. I feel they they. They may have their place. But let's not lose the original tone and bites of the of the original. I mentioned just add. The people ages can can read these stories ninety. I really really enjoyed them. And i'm fifty two so it's obviously not just the children off but somebody here are says. I didn't have a name but thank you very much to this question. How is it different writing for children. As opposed to adults. I suppose to corolla to that would be if trying to write for age. It's what's the difference. mallory. I might stop start with us. That role As children and young adults anyway for me it was no different so basically my my starting point is what kind of story would. I've enjoyed reading as a child retain And what would have said to me. What what what. What would i got out of this and you know an into entertaining in itself. I see nothing wrong with just being entertaining in an of itself road so i. That's that's my starting point that he saw a sort of older children and teens and adults going to enjoy this. But i must admit as a wanting children and young adults. I'm very focused on. Okay this is my book for teens. This is a my book for opportunities for example and then tell the story and then are never ever talking down to children but talk you know having a conversation with them and kind of inviting them to come on board with the story i want to tell and have their discussions in you know as is them coming said it's sort of like inviting children to read them and then discuss the stories. Also what did you get out of that. What do you think was going on. How did his behavior affect the story. And and if you in a different way what was the the outcome of being and so on and there's so many good discussions that could be had for many of these folks so that that would be my approach. Anybody else it's no. I found that actually For me wanda guides was was reading the ugly duckling which i thoroughly enjoyed reading as an adult and yet i knew that the version that i was reading was one that that was also their full for children. And and just i think the tone of that and thinking about how that worked really was important to me in in with now how i was going to go out and i mean the fact is out. I enjoy stories men for german. You know if it's well written if if the story is good if the guards is engaging you know you you get right in there. So the hot isn't the the writing for adults spot. It's the right. Temperature is going off talk of slightly. But i have noticed in these last few months. I've gone back to my children's books of which i've kind of hoarded and taken from place to place throughout many many years unread so many of them again. I wonder if that's just something that's kind of speaking to all of us at the minute. You had she. Then idea stripping something back to essentials it's kind of important isn't it something comforting about going back to books that you grew up with but also there are so many fabulous new books out there and new offers new voices such think combination of the two really have have written books to promise gossip i to go back. I mean it's good you just. In these stories. They often have archetypes characters and situations that we recognize and he's slowly to bring them back to a young audience of never before. It's just great fun. I mean kids. Kids have fallen on. And that's the pleasure of writing for them is a bad delight in the story and they absolute concentration on especially when you read. It could be more wonderful. It didn't actually ask rebecca. you'll deputy your great niece ella. what did she think of the story you know. I don't have a clear verdict yet but last time you know When we were both cleared for on pandemic principles she read me where the wild things which is one of my favorite books of all time maurice endex classic in a couple of other things so she's narrow six in reading on her own. And so you know what. I i wrote it. She felt a little bit young for. I was really trying to rake something. That wasn't few formidable for kids. Who were you know. Seven to ten that the syntax and vocabulary wasn't too overwhelming. But i also knew that it would be read by adults to kids read by adults for their own sakes in its cetera. So but she definitely likes that. There's a book that's of dedicated to her. Actually one of the joys of writing it was. I didn't had never really thought about. The fact that cinderella's real name is ella. Cinders are just unfortunate thing that happens to her and so my book ends with everyone reverting to her real name which is ella. And that was quite fun. And i know ella loves that. In who wouldn't love which you're namesake was the central. Did you just want to say soil. Elected is what we may have talked about. We're running out of time. Them was the each of these books. Most gorgeous illustrations Don't wind door with yet. Such rebecca you went back to the the author jewelry which are also just beautiful But that lights up. Visual pleasure was immense in in all these books One last question to ask you and it was very very good one. I think from alley all that. Any other ferries news the yuan on now tempted to read l. To put you on the spot and two thirds of way through the book for ella's little sister maya and You know all will be revealed in the fullness of time to watch states another. There's almost no fairytale when wouldn't read and think a wouldn't it be much more fun. Honest you know this happened in. This didn't happen like that's you know there's a certain that's not how we do it. Nowadays i wanted you know eve eve. Oh can seem to simple. I wanted there to be reason. Step sisters were following their mother's orders. Their mother was a hungry ghost kinds of explanations for things. I think i think innocence all of them. Thank you i. I like to go to Thousand and one nights something like alibaba and the forty thieves and make a gang of women and have fun with that. So go hang on. This is about you. I will wait three canelas ones. It is so go for it. no. I mean you've just done frankenstein in a way and you'll lost frankenstein's next few is not very challenging semester. As ballots officials intelligence which killing me. I'm really need to finish Because i need to decorate my house for. Christmas is driving me mad. I wanna get this one of the things that i love about fairy tales. You not think that the end they all live happily ever after and everybody thinks it's really tried but hop eight hundred p. It comes from the jomon through the old english. And it's really help us your character to change and it's why we get happens downs and this happened look for the prefixes are it's the faithfulness that comes in which is no random. It's actually connected to you so your they all lived happily ever after which happens at the end of the fifth tactical the shakespearean comedies as well is not try. It's not disney actually say. What is the connection between you as a character which is interesting given the fairytales no really dealing characters what does happen to you from the outside world. So if you're gonna live hap p happily. Ever after. What is your. What is your fate. What is your connection with what what is going before for good oriel amounts of them so that even in the moment that looks like a cliche or just a bit of know. Goodbye thank you. it's not. It's a really deep message about to everything that we do in the world. The real imagined human animal natural and what the entire circumstances don't within the container of the story and they don't go into future. Wow thank you. Nice to though. I which we talk listening to this final episode of the vintage books podcast this year. We hope you enjoyed hearing from our office of the feminist fairy tale series. There's a link in the episode description to find out more about the books. You can also find us at into books on twitter. Instagram and facebook a very happy holidays. Everyone vintage and we look forward to bringing you more podcasts. In the new year until then he reading boldly and thinking differently.
When fake facts go viral: Islamic science, Medieval medicine and the history police
"This is an ABC podcast. Hello and welcome to sides friction it is the show exploring sides and culture. With Extra Spice Natasha Mitchell back with you and today we are looking for fakes. It was utterly disgusted of a surprise, I never had actually expected this to happen. And there's an irony here. Because half of my work is about how meaning and nuance, and in history gets MIS translated once it gets on the Internet and circulates in different ways here. It was happening to my very own work. So this story starts with a mixture and you I notice it. On the cover of a textbook, so the book is a sort of medieval encyclopedia, and has been translated recently into English by my colleague Elliot Mehanna. This is Dr Nisha fee as an historian from the University of California San, Diego. His thing is the culture and sites of the Ottoman Empire that vast state, which controlled over six hundred years much of Southeast Europe Western Asia and North Africa up. Until the twentieth century, it was centered around Istanbul and on the cover it of it is two men looking through telescopes. Telescopes one of them is pointing up at the night sky so here you have this traditional vision of men observing the cosmos through telescopes, they looking across a rich landscape from a kind of Belka Ni there on some sort of tower. Yeah, and there's a mood of them, so it's the time. Yeah, and it's drawn in this sort of traditional. Persian miniature style. Knees describing is sane depicting to turbaned astronomers at work sometime in the medieval era of the middle. East Persian miniatures of these small beautiful paintings of historical sayings, famous for their intricate detail and modern reproductions of them are sold in the busy markets of eastern to tourists in those, there seems to be an obsession with science, so some of these scenes are images that might be found in actual manuscripts for instance an image of circulatory system in the human body. People looking through a telescope people treating Toothache, a dentist operating on someone, a surgeon cutting open up a patient. Some of them are sexual, but they're often quite commonly linked to science. which is kind of curious because he's what you find. If you actually look at the historical record, I've looked through thousands of manuscripts myself out of every one thousand, two thousand, I find one with some illustration in it, and of those only a tiny fraction are actually depictions, of science. And there's a controversy or reason for why the story of Islamic Science is being sold to tourists in this way and I'll get back to that, but what about that? Miniature of the to astronomers will knee was about to use the book? It was on the cover of for a university course he teaches called science and Islam and something about it just didn't ring true. One is the telescope itself right? The telescope is something that was developed by Galileo and others in the seventeenth century. We have a lot of evidence of people using telescopes eighteenth century in the Middle East about I've never come across a picture of someone using it. And looking more closely again at the peak show me and noticed something else was odd. The style was a bit off. The colors were to write. The pigments were off. The way that this thing was drawn was not quite correct. So what I look for is the full picture when there wasn't cropped, and then once I saw. Two, more figures emerged in here. You have another man looking through a telescope, and then at the bottom of the picture you have the man with his hand on the globe, and writing a book with a quilt, and that quill set alarm bells off Fanie Ish via this for me with the little moment in which. I realize this is a fake because. People in the middle. East didn't write with quills a used to write with reed pens. Okay, that sounds like a very social day tile, but only and historians. I could pick up all be concerned about, and you might be thinking. But. This was a scholarly text, not the place for five weeks, and it's libel said it was a genuine miniature, asked in the East Ambuhl University Library. What we have here is a modern forgery masquerading as a mediaeval illustration as he describes it and the tourist markets are full of phase. They're very clearly fakes, so you know this isn't something that's fooled all sorts of experts here. But what happens is when they move onto the Internet. And how did they get onto the Internet? They get onto through these stock photo agencies stock foot inside. The one selling pictures to new sites to books all sorts of anytime. We need an image so there was this one particular photographer by the name of Janney Deldot, who is apparently pretty famous I found out for photographing pictures and museums, and he, according to the tag lines in these stock indices had photographed a large number of these fake miniatures and said that they were in the Stumble University library. And the claim prompted Nia to dig even. Now I went to often do research library, and I went there, and I asked the rare books collection if they have any of these pictures, and said no, and not only that they don't take any new. They don't keep collect in new manuscripts, so there's no way that these pieces ever entered their collection. And so that's when I realized that these what essentially we're tourists pieces, and that's I. Hey, but once they're on the Internet. It's actually quite hard to tell exactly if they're real or not. especially if you're looking at the image, so my colleagues have been using them unintentionally on in presentations, they've used them on the covers of their conference. Booklets circulate especially through the Internet and through facebook and instagram. They go even further. and. That's when Sykes get represented as truth with potentially nasty consequences as you'll. He but he's another story of an historical image that's sprayed like a virus. Although in this case, it wasn't a virus. Eat was the plague. Clegg is actually caused by a bacteria that is flea-born for the most part might also be transmitted by lice the whole story that we've heard quite a bit about the rat flea. Is True except that those fleas are also carried on about two hundred other different animals as well so it really isn't just the rat. So litz now support our cells back to the fourteenth century, and imagine these sixty percent up to sixty percent of the population across Europe the middle. East and North. Africa was wind Dash. There are images of people carrying coffins, a lot of people carrying a lot of coffins at the same time that's probably one of the most iconic images of the plague. There are images of people lying dead and or dying on the streets. Of images of people praying with perhaps the Virgin Mary, around them are a variety of Saint, so the whole connection to sort of a spiritual salvation, either asking for it or giving thanks for it after the fact for having survived. Laurie giants. She's an international development. Work turned historian at the University of Ottawa, and she's out sick and sleuth on science friction today her passion. It's gory is medieval medicine and the black death was one of the goriest diseases of all and in the Bhubaneshwar. Version of the plague you end up with booze, which are large swellings about the size of an egg under the armpits on the side of the neck or in the groin. which eventually pus could come out of apparently, the stench from the People's bodies were almost rotting from the inside out was quite horrific. Truly awful I of dying. Yes You know sadly the bubonic plague still occurs in parts of the world today. But one picture from the Medieval era has come to be reproduced. Times that's almost become the conic image of the Black Day. It got picked up by publications by scholarly journals by documentaries, museums, tourist pamphlets. You name it. This picture is everywhere. And because most of them then credited back to the British library. Everybody believes that that's what it is. This is an image that is in a encyclopedia that was written around thirteen, sixty, five by a clerk in London named James Palmer, and it's heavily illustrated, and this one image is of a bunch of clerics, so people in the church perhaps monks being instructed by their bishop. The men are all covered in spots. The text around the image talks about the fact that this is a bishop giving instruction to clerics as to what they're supposed to do. Or what rights and benefits they have if they fall ill while they're in their position, and should they be thrown out of the Church or not? Exactly, and whether if they're too sick to work, are they allowed to get the income that they would normally get or do? They need to hire somebody to take their place. Okay sounds pretty reasonable. Dozen at a very likely fourteenth century scenario, but none of that context was being distributed with the image as it sprayed across the Internet, and when historian sort being described as a group of plague infected monks with the priest I smelled a rat, not an plague infected flea on a red jest arete. It didn't quite seem right because people with the plague first of all. Don't have those kind of spots. Spots that we're aware of and also probably wouldn't be standing up. Because once you have the plug. You're quite ill and you'd probably be lying down and dine. There were a whole lot of things that same to be wrong. Once historians like self started Deke. Yes, exactly as so they're certainly not dressed like monks and priests doesn't look like what a priest would have been wearing, either so we have clothing issues you have. Disease dissipation issues that none of it quite lined up. And in fact, spotted skin, a tended to mean something else in medieval iconography. It did it meant leprosy. So. It wasn't the be Banik plague at all. And if you read the original manuscript, it was very clearly that the clerics head leprosy, not the plague. So Laurie and her medieval history colleagues went hunting down the source of the era, and led them to Nautilus than the esteemed British library with the original was held, and then it was given to somebody to create a caption for it on the online version, and that person took the image and called it the plague. And what happened next because what this amy page effectively sprayed like the big, and then it got picked up by Wikipedia in English and every other language that has wikipedia black death pages, and then what happens is people go online and they're looking for images, and they pick up this image either from the British library, or from wikipedia that says here's an image of the black death, and there we go, this now is an image of the plague, and it's from the British Library, so you have to believe it, and that's part of the problem. Is that the people who are doing? The captioning 's for these online sites might not have any direct knowledge of what the image is actually about. And now at least three commercial photo libraries sell it as a definitive historical representation of the plague. So science information that is misuse. You probably come across a lot on your own shows it's. Somebody will do a scientific study, and it will be misinterpreted and used to promote something else entirely. It's the same with historical textual information that if you're misreading it, you're misrepresenting what people at the time were talking about? But is that really an issue? This is a fourteenth century image. So what if it's leprosy? Not Plague? So what if the main man was a bishop not appraised? So what if the clerics went monks? So what what's the problem here for historians? The problem is that people are misrepresenting the past when I teach history of disease courses. I try and tell the students that you wouldn't take an image of somebody with chicken pox to explain to somebody what the flu is like. There is some speculation that the plague in the fourteenth century. Maybe even during the fifteenth century might have looked more like this spotted disease, and I have seen some historians pickup on descriptions about all these bodily spots, and then say well. We don't have those spots today so clearly something else was going on, and these are mostly by historians who tend not to have believed the plague was the same disease that it is today, so even though now you know, we have the scientific DNA evidence that it was then they can point to these images and say well. These images show that it was not the same, and it's constantly having to correct, but these are not images of the plague. Now Laurie and her colleagues could have just left it there, but now these intrepid historians. They wanted to fix the niche. You approached up woods fifty one websites. How response I able her and that's really committed. It is it is and I mean certainly didn't even bother going to the pinterest and flicker sites because that would take us down a rabbit hole that I thought we would never get out of so we focused really on academic websites. Science websites media websites ones that were specifically met for patient for other people to you. I mean even the Australian curriculum. Had It on their website at one point. About half I would say rollback the rest of them either did not respond at all, and still have the images up, or their websites are no longer active or did have a few. That wrote back and said that they were aware and they were using it as a teaching moment, so actually having it labeled wrong, and then teaching their students what that meant interesting stock photo websites entirely ignored you. They did totally ignore me and morning. Actually I went and checked, and they all still have it mislabelled for sale so I don't seem to be paying much attention to fact. They do not. Will ease. We all know it's full of fake news and misinformation rot for missing taper Tyson. We understand that way, but it's still easy to get swept up by means on facebook, appearing to tell the truth, but the thing is as we've heard from Laurie when site historical images start doing the rounds history itself gets rewritten. Autumn scholar again Dr Neha Schiff via. The people now in. The market when I go and ask them they won't say that they're real. But when I went to the whipple museum in Cambridge. and asked to see. Their collection of nutrient depicting science. They turned out to be fake. In you could tell that, yeah, it was quite clear when you. Take a look at the documents. Quite a few were painted on nineteenth century. Bond notices, or things like that, so this is Cambridge University's whipple Museum of the history of science, and this is just one example of esteemed museums in the west of history of Science Museum the Wellcome Library the British library. Any number of institutions have these miniatures in them. When you went to the whipple. Museum what was revealed to you about halfpipe acuity, those images. One of the things I've found out is that museums want to show images of Islamic science to the public. To educate the public. There's not that many images going around and so when someone comes and wants to sell them these images they jump on it. They were sold to them by dealer in Istanbul. In the late ninety s quite a few of these were quite high quality, so they thought it was. Back then worthwhile investment. Let's explore why you think these fakes exist. Witnesses desire come from to make up. Fake scenes from the history of Islamic Science is it? Is it about more than simply artistic license and making a blackout of tourists? Yeah, this isn't a story about necessarily the forgers, but about why we want to believe in these forgeries. So since the late nineteenth century, there has been this narrative about science as a measure of civilization about science as a way to say whether these people are part of the human race or human political community, and even in eighteen, eighty three and. The famous scholar of Islam was arguing that Islam. Because of its religiosity had turned against science and rationality, and of course there was a response to this by number of scholars at the time. So this is a long standing debate. What people want to do is essentially. Quickly and easily use images of science, especially the ones we recognize modern people using instruments, people looking at the night sky through telescopes to demonstrate that Muslims had signs to. And, of course they do. There's actually amazing and longstanding. Of Islamic science everything from say medical books from Medieval Baghdad to calendars that people were using for astrological astronomical calculations in seventeenth century. Istanbul, but it's often does not visually depicted in the way we want it to today. And this has become even more pressing in the past ten to twenty years in the face of increasing Slama Phobia, which has essentially argued that Muslims are in parts of whatever western civilization part of our culture part of our political community and shouldn't be part of it. And, so in response to that kind of discourse Slama phobic discourse, there has been an increasingly well intentioned misplaced desire to show that no know Muslims also had science and that we can create a sort of global political. Human community by showing the past history of Islamic scientific production. Now, incur taking these forgeries. These fake representations of the history of Islamic science seen these miniatures. You walk a very fine line, don't you? Because on the other hand, you also wanted to investigate and celebrate what you safe to be a rich history of Islamic science, and yet what you might be putting out. There is the message that it's all. Fake right. and. He's like you've had a very interesting response, haven't you? One of the things I found out is a few weeks after this article was released that it was actually picked up by Islamophobic right wing commentators, who essentially took the introduction of the article added a few lines of their own, and basically said that look Muslims never had science everything out. Everything in these collections is fake, and in reality as thumbs irrational once again, science and things like that, and it's this big liberal conspiracy to pretend that we have to live in this multicultural world. How does it make you feel your argument? BEING CO opted buys. Lennox was disgusted. Surprise, you know I never had expected this to happen, and there's an irony here, because and half of my work is about how meaning and nuance and history gets mistranslated once it gets on the Internet and circulates in different ways in here. It was happening to my very own work. Just like how these fake miniatures! Jump around as truest Curios to stock photos to be in on the Internet and then end up on scholarly books. For the wrong purposes you know my work was now being used by these Islamophobic people to basically denounce Muslim. The incredible unintended consequences an all-star had with a fake miniature mischief. The wants a more nuanced approach to how we explore the history of science one that doesn't just focus on the boys with toys type imagined scenes of main building telescopes and other scientific instruments. We're moving away from thinking about science as happening just in the minds of great men. Traditional example Newton Indianapo-. Tree in the NAPA falls in Germany. Anything of this theory of gravity. To Science being created in the work of artisans of of daily people. Let's say mom trying to calculate prayer, time, musk, or an alchemist, trying to figure out how to turn lead into gold, and it's in these daily experimentation in the world, also trade and things like that that we find science being created, and that's I think what a lot of us myself and my colleagues are trying to do today. You'll sense is that science was infect everywhere possibly in the Ottoman Empire. Not In the kind of places that we recognize as being scientific now, right? Let's say this is something that a lot of us in the history of science and arguing about this finding signs and the everyday in everyday practices. and. It's the problem is that is often quite difficult to recognize this sort of science. Everyday science is not as spectacular. It's not depicted visually in the same way that we that we need for for image of society today. It's not going to change the Internet because the pictures are still there, but I've had quite a few people right to me separately saying. I I have a book in in publication right now I have this image in it and I'm going to write to my publisher right now and get taken out so. And I do get some pleasure when I met conferences and I see people with the imaging I'm going that is not the plague. The history police. Yeah, I know I know I have to be careful not to go down that road. In fact, some websites have replaced the image bit I. think There was one that actually replaced with another incorrect image representation. Dave did yes, yes, and when I wrote to correct them, they were actually. Quite rude to me. What's your cautionary would? You'll cautionary instruction to all of us. After this experience. I think the best answer to that came from one of the students that I had in a course that I taught the summer about the plug, and the very last class we talked about. So, what have you learned? What would you do differently? Now that you know more about the plague, and one of the students actually said to me what I've learned is that I cannot take for granted anything that I read, or that I see I need to go back to the original sources much as possible because somebody might have misinterpreted. Sage advice from Professor Laurie, giants from the University of our and thanks also to assistant history Professor Nisha fee from the University of California San. Diego popular shy there from L. Archive and don't forget the ease a wealth of science friction. In, carve podcast to catch with. No, you're probably already subscribe of at. Tell you frenzy th by art. Thanks to Co, producer, John Les I'm on twitter at Natasha Mitchell, come say hi. Bye. You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great ABC. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC listen APP.